Video: George Zimmerman’s Friend Joe Oliver Grilled on ‘The Last Word’

“My role in this just doesn’t make sense”
US News • Views: 29,632

In a riveting episode of The Last Word, George Zimmerman’s friend Joe Oliver is grilled by Lawrence O’Donnell, Charles Blow, and Jonathan Capehart — and Oliver does not come off very well at all. (Putting it mildly.)

UPDATE at 3/27/12 9:13:44 pm

And some very interesting news from Florida: Sanford Cops Wanted to Charge Zimmerman in Trayvon Martin Case.

SANFORD — Despite public claims that there wasn’t enough probable cause to make a criminal case in the Trayvon Martin killing, early in the investigation the Sanford Police Department requested an arrest warrant from the Seminole County State Attorney’s office, the special prosecutor in the case told The Miami Herald on Tuesday.

A Sanford Police incident report shows the case was categorized as “homicide/negligent manslaughter.”

The state attorney’s office held off pending further review, The Miami Herald has learned.

The Miami Gardens high school junior was killed Feb. 26 by George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer. The 28-year-old insurance underwriter and college student was never charged, triggering a nationwide crusade on the dead teen’s behalf.

Asked to confirm that the police recommended a manslaughter charge, special prosecutor Angela Corey said: “I don’t know about that, but as far as the process I can tell you that the police went to the state attorney with a capias request, meaning: ‘We’re through with our investigation and here it is for you.’ The state attorney impaneled a grand jury, but before anything else could be done, the governor stepped in and asked us to pick it up in mid-stream.”

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469 comments
1 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:03:34pm

So, I didn't watch the whole thing.

I stopped when he said he wasn't working because he wanted to "help George" and he wasn't being paid. something "experience with the media"

do I have to watch the rest?

2 jaunte  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:03:57pm
3 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:05:23pm

Joe Oliver: pants on fire.

4 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:05:32pm

re: #1 ggt

So, I didn't watch the whole thing.

I stopped when he said he wasn't working because he wanted to "help George" and he wasn't being paid. something "experience with the media"

do I have to watch the rest?

Yeah, horseshit. Zimmerman's lawyer is putting him in front of every camera possible, there's no way that he's not also paying Oliver's expenses while doing so.

5 Kragar  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:07:57pm

I guess its true what they say about real friends.

6 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:07:59pm

re: #4 Targetpractice

Yeah, horseshit. Zimmerman's lawyer is putting him in front of every camera possible, there's no way that he's not also paying Oliver's expenses while doing so.

paying padded "expenses" is a different IRS line-item than are "actual" wages.

technicalities . . .

7 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:09:03pm

re: #2 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Makes me wonder how that works under Florida law (and how it will be viewed by the potential juror pool). In places where grand juries are the norm, bypassing them is usually very bad political ju-ju.

8 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:09:05pm

Zimmerman's lawyer is also obviously playing the race card here too.

WTF?

Why do we have to do this in this country?

9 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:10:01pm

Think he'll get his chance on DWTS?

10 uncah91  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:11:12pm
Why do we have to do this in this country?

Because we are a homogenous country with a tangled history?

11 Lidane  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:12:45pm

re: #8 ggt

Why do we have to do this in this country?

Because people will bend over backwards to try and find any justification they can for why an unarmed black teenager was a threat to an armed white adult.

12 freetoken  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:13:23pm

re: #9 ggt

Think he'll get his chance on DWTS?

Please, don't give them ideas. It's bad enough that this year BBC America decided that they should continually post twitter blather at the bottom of the screen. Of course they'd love controversial figures, but this guy is a flash in the pan of the shortest duration.

13 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:13:59pm

And some very interesting news from Florida: Sanford Cops Wanted to Charge Zimmerman in Trayvon Martin Case.

SANFORD -- Despite public claims that there wasn’t enough probable cause to make a criminal case in the Trayvon Martin killing, early in the investigation the Sanford Police Department requested an arrest warrant from the Seminole County State Attorney’s office, the special prosecutor in the case told The Miami Herald on Tuesday.

A Sanford Police incident report shows the case was categorized as “homicide/negligent manslaughter.”

The state attorney’s office held off pending further review, The Miami Herald has learned.

The Miami Gardens high school junior was killed Feb. 26 by George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer. The 28-year-old insurance underwriter and college student was never charged, triggering a nationwide crusade on the dead teen’s behalf.

Asked to confirm that the police recommended a manslaughter charge, special prosecutor Angela Corey said: “I don’t know about that, but as far as the process I can tell you that the police went to the state attorney with a capias request, meaning: ‘We’re through with our investigation and here it is for you.’ The state attorney impaneled a grand jury, but before anything else could be done, the governor stepped in and asked us to pick it up in mid-stream.”

14 funky chicken  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:15:17pm

I can't watch the videos, but is the point of the exercise the whole "he's not racist because I'm his friend and I have a higher than average melanin content?" Whatever. Anyway, the issue for me isn't about race. It's about a creep that stalked a teenager and then shot him. It's at least manslaughter, or worthy of a serious attempt at prosecution for manslaughter. The fact that the authorities in Florida disagree is disgusting, and the race issue most likely has a lot to do with that...but those are two separate issues for me.

Zimmerman killed a kid because of some kind of paranoid action-hero fantasy, or because he's a racist with paranoid action-hero fantasies, or because he's just psychotic...I don't know. All that matters is that he killed Trayvon Martin and he should be prosecuted for that.

15 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:16:22pm

re: #12 freetoken

Please, don't give them ideas. It's bad enough that this year BBC America decided that they should continually post twitter blather at the bottom of the screen. Of course they'd love controversial figures, but this guy is a flash in the pan of the shortest duration.

I think they've already got ideas. The Public Relations "ambulance chasers" are all over this.

There will be book deals with ghost writers, etc.

16 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:16:44pm

re: #13 Charles Johnson

I'm sure there's plenty we still don't know.

17 uncah91  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:17:12pm

re: #11 Lidane

Because people will bend over backwards to try and find any justification they can for why an unarmed black teenager was a threat to an armed white adult.

I think this little bit of kabuki is just a defense attorney attempting to do his job.

We can call it a fake or a charade, but I don't think the motivation is racial.

18 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:17:15pm

re: #14 funky chicken

I can't watch the videos, but is the point of the exercise the whole "he's not racist because I'm his friend and I have a higher than average melanin content?" Whatever. Anyway, the issue for me isn't about race. It's about a creep that stalked a teenager and then shot him. It's at least manslaughter, or worthy of a serious attempt at prosecution for manslaughter. The fact that the authorities in Florida disagree is disgusting, and the race issue most likely has a lot to do with that...but those are two separate issues for me.

Zimmerman killed a kid because of some kind of paranoid action-hero fantasy, or because he's a racist with paranoid action-hero fantasies, or because he's just psychotic...I don't know. All that matters is that he killed Trayvon Martin and he should be prosecuted for that.

The million-dollar question:

WHY did he get out of the truck when he didn't have to?

19 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:17:17pm

re: #13 Charles Johnson

And some very interesting news from Florida: Sanford Cops Wanted to Charge Zimmerman in Trayvon Martin Case.

It's cool to see but wasn't this posted here earlier today, Charles? Or is my swiss cheese memory firing up again?

20 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:17:37pm

re: #16 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks

I'm sure there's plenty we still don't know.

and may never know.

21 Kragar  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:19:18pm

re: #13 Charles Johnson

And some very interesting news from Florida: Sanford Cops Wanted to Charge Zimmerman in Trayvon Martin Case.

Coverup? What coverup?
/

22 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:19:48pm

Bottom line. On the most basic level GZ stalked, pursued -- whatever you want to call it -- Trayvon Martin. That puts him well outside of stand your ground (which remains a troubled piece of legislation).

23 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:20:13pm

re: #13 Charles Johnson

And some very interesting news from Florida: Sanford Cops Wanted to Charge Zimmerman in Trayvon Martin Case.

The "defense" of Zimmerman keeps getting chipped away. It's pretty much been a "fact" for days now that the cops accepted his story as the gospel truth and that's why he got off. Between the affidavit and now the special prosecutor, it looks like we can say for certain that even the cops found his version of events fishy, but were hamstrung by the SYG law.

24 Lidane  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:20:39pm

re: #17 uncah91

The entire case is racial. Zimmerman's motive for stalking Martin was racial.

You simply can't separate that from this case at all.

25 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:27:21pm

re: #24 Lidane

The entire case is racial. Zimmerman's motive for stalking Martin was racial.

You simply can't separate that from this case at all.

No you can't. I think the racism revolving this whole episode is packed a mile high. However, legally, you need evidence. The only evidence is a yet unidentified word uttered in the cell phone recordings. Unless there is other evidence unknown to me that's the sole piece of evidence that could use. The best route for prosecution would be to invalidate the application of the SYG law as applied here; shoot for a 2nd degree verdict; but rest on manslaughter.

26 uncah91  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:27:49pm

re: #24 Lidane

The entire case is racial. Zimmerman's motive for stalking Martin was racial.

You simply can't separate that from this case at all.

No dispute there.

But the fact that this particular guy has shown up to defend Martin doesn't have anything to do with with making Trayvon out to be bad, it's to challenge the narrative that Zimmerman is a racist.

Once one is (credibly) labeled a racist, that becomes a big problem for the defense.

And that is a much bigger issue in this country because we are homogenous, and have a tangled history around race.

27 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:28:32pm

re: #25 Gus

No you can't. I think the racism revolving this whole episode is packed a mile high. However, legally, you need evidence. The only evidence is a yet unidentified word uttered in the cell phone recordings. Unless there is other evidence unknown to me that's the sole piece of evidence that could use. The best route for prosecution would be to invalidate the SYG law; shoot for a 2nd degree verdict; but rest on manslaughter.

wouldn't is past 911 calls be a point of reference?

28 Lidane  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:29:52pm

re: #25 Gus

Manslaughter is probably the max that anyone could hope for, with whatever Florida's equivalent of negligent homicide as the best possible outcome.

That is, if a prosecution and trial happen at all. I honestly still don't see that happening anyway. I think Zimmerman will end up walking away from this, and that sucks.

29 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:29:57pm

re: #27 ggt

wouldn't is past 911 calls be a point of reference?

No. It shows a pattern but could be easily deemed circumstantial no? Could have been coincidental for all we know. Or at least it would be easy to convince a jury that. At least half maybe?

30 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:31:28pm

re: #29 Gus

No. It shows a pattern but could be easily deemed circumstantial no? Could have been coincidental for all we know. Or at least it would be easy to convince a jury that. At least half maybe?

We shall see.

31 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:31:37pm

re: #28 Lidane

Manslaughter is probably the max that anyone could hope for, with whatever Florida's equivalent of negligent homicide as the best possible outcome.

That is, if a prosecution and trial happen at all. I honestly still don't see that happening anyway. I think Zimmerman will end up walking away from this, and that sucks.

Yep. He's basically going to be treated like a cop. I know, it's crazy, but that's what this is probably going to look like. Mind you I'm not some sentencing nut either and have taken a rather European outlook on incarceration.

32 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:31:54pm

re: #30 ggt

We shall see.

Indeed.

33 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:32:05pm

Well, just got done watching the video and yeah, Joe Oliver just got his ass taken to the cleaners. I actually feel bad for him now, because I know that Zimmerman's lawyer is gotta be the one putting him up to this, gotta be the one feeding him these lines. He knows next to nothing about his "friend," the guy he's "acting like an uncle" for, but yet he thinks he knows enough to say on TV that there's no way George could have been motivated by racism.

34 uncah91  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:32:38pm

re: #27 ggt

wouldn't is past 911 calls be a point of reference?

Sure, but at trial, a coherent narrative can probably be put together to explain those calls.

- Frequent break-ins in the neighborhood
- Black youths observed or suspected
- Young children used as lookouts
- etc.

True? Doesn't matter. That is the case the defense will try and make if those calls are admitted.

35 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:34:17pm

re: #34 uncah91

Sure, but at trial, a coherent narrative can probably be put together to explain those calls.

- Frequent break-ins in the neighborhood
- Black youths observed or suspected
- Young children used as lookouts
- etc.

True? Doesn't matter. That is the case the defense will try and make if those calls are admitted.

I think it still assumes that being black and young automatically makes you a criminal suspect --they jury won't buy that (hopefully)

36 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:34:49pm

re: #33 Targetpractice

Well, just got done watching the video and yeah, Joe Oliver just got his ass taken to the cleaners. I actually feel bad for him now, because I know that Zimmerman's lawyer is gotta be the one putting him up to this, gotta be the one feeding him these lines. He knows next to nothing about his "friend," the guy he's "acting like an uncle" for, but yet he thinks he knows enough to say on TV that there's no way George could have been motivated by racism.

Friend of the family. Oliver was making it sound like he was a close uncle. Almost like a mentor at times. But that isn't the case. So, being that Joe had experience in front of a camera he was the first they sent out for the PR cover.

37 philosophus invidius  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:36:03pm

2nd video at 3:41. That look on the reporter's face says it all.

38 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:36:17pm

re: #36 Gus

Friend of the family. Oliver was making it sound like he was a close uncle. Almost like a mentor at times. But that isn't the case. So, being that Joe had experience in front of a camera he was the first they sent out for the PR cover.

Joe Oliver seems to be out of work and this is an opportunity to find a job in a field he wants?

The little bit I saw caused me to think Joe is doing it for the exposure.

39 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:36:18pm

re: #36 Gus

Friend of the family. Oliver was making it sound like he was a close uncle. Almost like a mentor at times. But that isn't the case. So, being that Joe had experience in front of a camera he was the first they sent out for the PR cover.

Being black no doubt ranked him a little higher in the eyes of Zimmerman's lawyer. It's almost like using "some of my best friends are black" as a defense.

40 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:38:06pm

G'night all. Till the morrow.

41 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:38:58pm

fuckin' goons?

right.

goons? who uses that word anymore?

42 uncah91  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:39:13pm

re: #35 ggt

I think it still assumes that being black and young automatically makes you a criminal suspect --they jury won't buy that (hopefully)

Mmm. I think a jury could be pretty willing to accept the line of argument that a neighborhood watch volunteer was looking out for people matching descriptions of suspects in break-ins.

Especially if there are other calls where he describes (say) a white guy, mid 40s, red car. The totality is what matters.

43 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:39:15pm

re: #38 ggt

Joe Oliver seems to be out of work and this is an opportunity to find a job in a field he wants?

The little bit I saw caused me to think Joe is doing it for the exposure.

For sure. He no doubt volunteered for this assignment. He probably had a script all written out before "coming over." It really blew up on his face tonight though. Pretty impressed with Lawrence O'Donnell too. He was really tough and thinking on his feet. Tough but fair.

Jonathan Capehart was very effective too.

44 freetoken  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:39:40pm

re: #38 ggt

Joe Oliver seems to be out of work and this is an opportunity to find a job in a field he wants?

The little bit I saw caused me to think Joe is doing it for the exposure.

Joe the Plumber redux?

45 allegro  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:39:47pm

Well that was an embarrassing display. Between his "friend" and his lawyer's stunt last night making a beeline outa the studio before his agreed upon interview, George is looking worse all the time without ever showing his own face.

46 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:40:04pm

re: #41 ggt

fuckin' goons?

right.

goons? who uses that word anymore?

1950s cartoons? Film noir?

47 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:40:42pm

"Buggsy sent dem goons of his after me this morning!"

48 uncah91  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:41:04pm

re: #41 ggt

fuckin' goons?

right.

goons? who uses that word anymore?

Steven Speilberg?

49 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:41:33pm

Goon squad maybe. More often. For "union goons." Was never really a slur.

50 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:42:47pm

re: #41 ggt

fuckin' goons?

right.

goons? who uses that word anymore?

Well, I'll admit that Oliver's daughter is right, that I've heard it used as a "term of endearment" to describe a group of close guy friends or loyal followers. But not usually with "fucking" in front of it.

51 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:43:05pm

re: #49 Gus

Goon squad maybe. More often. For "union goons." Was never really a slur.

Goon squad. I forgot about the Goon Squad.

52 uncah91  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:44:01pm

re: #50 Targetpractice

Well, I'll admit that Oliver's daughter is right, that I've heard it used as a "term of endearment" to describe a group of close guy friends or loyal followers. But not usually with "fucking" in front of it.

Who exactly would he be referring to endearingly anyway?

53 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:44:09pm

re: #50 Targetpractice

Well, I'll admit that Oliver's daughter is right, that I've heard it used as a "term of endearment" to describe a group of close guy friends or loyal followers. But not usually with "fucking" in front of it.

So the kid in the hoodie walking in the neighborhood that you just called 911 about is a close guy friend or loyal follower?

doesn't compute.

54 allegro  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:44:45pm

re: #50 Targetpractice

Well, I'll admit that Oliver's daughter is right, that I've heard it used as a "term of endearment" to describe a group of close guy friends or loyal followers. But not usually with "fucking" in front of it.

Also considering the circumstances. A term of endearment? Seriously?

55 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:45:08pm

re: #53 ggt

So the kid in the hoodie walking in the neighborhood that you just called 911 about is a close guy friend or loyal follower?

doesn't compute.

Like I've said, it can be used as one, but I don't buy Oliver's explanation of why Zimmerman would use it for a second.

56 funky chicken  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:45:37pm

re: #31 Gus

Yep. He's basically going to be treated like a cop. I know, it's crazy, but that's what this is probably going to look like. Mind you I'm not some sentencing nut either and have taken a rather European outlook on incarceration.

Oh, I think a cop would be facing more consequences than Zimmerman right now. Perhaps they would be internal investigations, paid and then unpaid leave, and likely demotion or job loss which would take time. And the victim's parents could sue the city and win millions. That wouldn't bring their son back, but someone would be held responsible.

I've read that Zimmerman has a history of prior arrests. I'm not sure if that's true or just internet rumor, but it will be very interesting to see if this guy was just a nut who was going to snap eventually or not. It would also be interesting to see if his prior arrests involved confrontations with minorities or not.

But bottom line, the guy stalked and killed somebody.

57 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:45:46pm

They are throwing all kinds of fluff out in the digital matrix to take up air time, increase ratings, sell adds and give Joe Oliver the exposure he wants.

It seems the useful, factual information we can glean is about 1% of this fluff.

58 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:46:00pm

re: #41 ggt

goons? who uses that word anymore?

I use it to describe athletes in contact sports that seem to favor unsportsman like contact. Like a hockey player that does a lot of high-sticking.

59 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:46:51pm

re: #56 funky chicken

Oh, I think a cop would be facing more consequences than Zimmerman right now. Perhaps they would be internal investigations, paid and then unpaid leave, and likely demotion or job loss which would take time. And the victim's parents could sue the city and win millions. That wouldn't bring their son back, but someone would be held responsible.

I've read that Zimmerman has a history of prior arrests. I'm not sure if that's true or just internet rumor, but it will be very interesting to see if this guy was just a nut who was going to snap eventually or not. It would also be interesting to see if his prior arrests involved confrontations with minorities or not.

But bottom line, the guy stalked and killed somebody.

I think he has a documented history of "anger management" issues.

60 uncah91  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:46:55pm

Alright, bed time for this goon...

//

61 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:47:11pm

All well and good but GZ does not say "goons" in that recording.

62 Lidane  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:48:25pm

re: #51 ggt

Goon squad. I forgot about the Goon Squad.

For a moment there, I thought you were talking about the internet trolls from Something Awful.

63 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:48:33pm

re: #61 Gus

All well and good but GZ does not say "goons" in that recording.

agreed

64 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:49:18pm

re: #56 funky chicken

Oh, I think a cop would be facing more consequences than Zimmerman right now. Perhaps they would be internal investigations, paid and then unpaid leave, and likely demotion or job loss which would take time. And the victim's parents could sue the city and win millions. That wouldn't bring their son back, but someone would be held responsible.

I've read that Zimmerman has a history of prior arrests. I'm not sure if that's true or just internet rumor, but it will be very interesting to see if this guy was just a nut who was going to snap eventually or not. It would also be interesting to see if his prior arrests involved confrontations with minorities or not.

But bottom line, the guy stalked and killed somebody.

3 priors, two involving assaulting a cop and resisting arrest. I've been trying to get more on that, but so far, the most I've seen is that the charges were dropped due to "lack of evidence" and his arrest expunged by him entering a pre-trial diversion program.

There's rumors that his dad, who's an ex-judge, may have had some hand in all that of that. Not sure I buy it, but it certainly would explain how beating up a cop would bring back "lack of evidence."

65 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:49:25pm

re: #62 Lidane

For a moment there, I thought you were talking about the internet trolls from Something Awful.

Yet another internet phenom about which I know nothing.

sigh

66 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:50:32pm

re: #64 Targetpractice

3 priors, two involving assaulting a cop and resisting arrest. I've been trying to get more on that, but so far, the most I've seen is that the charges were dropped due to "lack of evidence" and his arrest expunged by him entering a pre-trial diversion program.

There's rumors that his dad, who's an ex-judge, may have had some hand in all that of that. Not sure I buy it, but it certainly would explain how beating up a cop would bring back "lack of evidence."

His criminal justice classes have served him well.

67 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:51:17pm

re: #64 Targetpractice

3 priors, two involving assaulting a cop and resisting arrest. I've been trying to get more on that, but so far, the most I've seen is that the charges were dropped due to "lack of evidence" and his arrest expunged by him entering a pre-trial diversion program.

There's rumors that his dad, who's an ex-judge, may have had some hand in all that of that. Not sure I buy it, but it certainly would explain how beating up a cop would bring back "lack of evidence."

All of which would likely be inadmissible? Especially if he got off with the pre-trial and expunged. The defense attorney would explode.

68 Lidane  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:51:34pm

re: #65 ggt

Yet another internet phenom about which I know nothing.

sigh

You're not missing anything. They were just a bunch of bored trolls is all.

69 funky chicken  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:51:50pm

re: #59 ggt

I think he has a documented history of "anger management" issues.

How many other Zimmermans are out there, and how many of them are surrounded by people who know it but encourage their antisocial tendencies, or feel it's "no big deal" or ... whatever? I'm afraid there are quite a few.

70 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:52:13pm

re: #62 Lidane

For a moment there, I thought you were talking about the internet trolls from Something Awful.

Yeah, they're #5 on the list from Urbandictionary. Right after it being a designation in gang terminology for the newbies.

71 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:52:24pm

re: #67 Gus

All of which would likely be inadmissible? Especially if he got off with the pre-trial and expunged. The defense attorney would explode.

The only time that could be used would likely be during sentencing.

72 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:52:26pm

Well, I still think it all hinges on why he got out of the truck.

With that,

Have a great evening/morning all!

Oh, I have to leave by going OT early.

73 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:53:19pm

re: #67 Gus

All of which would likely be inadmissible? Especially if he got off with the pre-trial and expunged. The defense attorney would explode.

All 3 are listed as closed cases, no charges ever filed, the arrests expunged. So yeah, if it ever came up at trial, defense would argue that they're irrelevant as no charges were ever filed and no convictions ever made. As far as the systems concerned, they never happened.

74 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:53:58pm

re: #73 Targetpractice

All 3 are listed as closed cases, no charges ever filed, the arrests expunged. So yeah, if it ever came up at trial, defense would argue that they're irrelevant as no charges were ever filed and no convictions ever made. As far as the systems concerned, they never happened.

Yep. Which means that it's all legally meaningless in this case.

75 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:54:32pm

re: #70 Targetpractice

Yeah, they're #5 on the list from Urbandictionary. Right after it being a designation in gang terminology for the newbies.

So, even if he used goon, it is still a racist comment?

goon 3784 up, 2297 down
a real man or nigga
originated in flordia
"told her i was a goon and she went for it" -plies(shawty)
buy goon mugs & shirts
florida real man plies shawty
by Krinisha Aug 17, 2007 share this add a video

76 funky chicken  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:54:49pm

re: #64 Targetpractice

3 priors, two involving assaulting a cop and resisting arrest. I've been trying to get more on that, but so far, the most I've seen is that the charges were dropped due to "lack of evidence" and his arrest expunged by him entering a pre-trial diversion program.

There's rumors that his dad, who's an ex-judge, may have had some hand in all that of that. Not sure I buy it, but it certainly would explain how beating up a cop would bring back "lack of evidence."

So, that's all true? Jesus. Gun rights for violent nuts with powerful parents!

/

77 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:54:50pm

night again.

78 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:55:30pm

re: #75 ggt

So, even if he used goon, it is still a racist comment?

That's a whole 'nother kettle of fish, one of which I have no desire to entertain. Far as I'm concerned, "goons" is not what he said, and Oliver's not making a very convincing case to me that it was.

79 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:55:56pm

re: #75 ggt

So, even if he used goon, it is still a racist comment?

Yeah, well. That's the Urban Dictionary. They also have an entry for "Iceweasel" which means diddly squat.

80 funky chicken  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 9:57:10pm

re: #13 Charles Johnson

And some very interesting news from Florida: Sanford Cops Wanted to Charge Zimmerman in Trayvon Martin Case.

I wonder if the cops would have been able to see the prior arrest records even though he was never convicted of anything.

81 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 10:00:48pm

re: #80 funky chicken

I wonder if the cops would have been able to see the prior arrest records even though he was never convicted of anything.

Probably would read as sealed, as getting the arrests themselves expunged was part of a plea deal for him to enter the diversion program.

82 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 10:01:10pm

re: #81 Targetpractice

Probably would read as sealed, as getting the arrests themselves expunged was part of a plea deal for him to enter the diversion program.

Encounter?

83 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 10:01:33pm

Or "contact".

84 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 10:02:06pm

Don't forget to also think of class.

85 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 10:03:34pm

re: #82 Gus

Encounter?

Can't say, my knowledge of criminal records only goes so far. But off the top of my head, I don't think the computer would pop them out as arrests.

86 funky chicken  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 10:06:42pm

re: #84 Gus

Don't forget to also think of class.

Well, yes. We have a wayward 28 YEAR OLD who has had 3 relatively serious run-ins with the law but is still somehow employable as an insurance underwriter vs a 17 year old who has had minor run-ins with school policies but ends up dead and then demonized for his transgressions.

How's your neck today?

87 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 10:08:48pm

re: #86 funky chicken

Well, yes. We have a wayward 28 YEAR OLD who has had 3 relatively serious run-ins with the law but is still somehow employable as an insurance underwriter vs a 17 year old who has had minor run-ins with school policies but ends up dead and then demonized for his transgressions.

How's your neck today?

Not only is employable, but is still legally carrying a gun. That giving that up was not part of the plea bargain is what shocks and amazes me, as it certainly would have been taken from him had he stood trial and been convicted on the felony charge.

88 Gus  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 10:09:26pm

re: #86 funky chicken

Well, yes. We have a wayward 28 YEAR OLD who has had 3 relatively serious run-ins with the law but is still somehow employable as an insurance underwriter vs a 17 year old who has had minor run-ins with school policies but ends up dead and then demonized for his transgressions.

How's your neck today?

A little better. Didn't mention it yesterday but the day before it wound up going to my shoulder and then my hand. Sucked.

On the class end there's no doubt that class plays a role here. Especially if his dad was a judge? Still didn't verify that. A lot of people even who would be almost identical to GZ wouldn't have been treated this way. What I'm saying then is that I'm pretty sure that he go preferential treatment.

89 funky chicken  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 10:10:24pm

Well, I'm off to bed. I've got a big day tomorrow. My husband royally PO'd my teenage son tonight, accusing him of lying about how he got home late from a school sporting event. Tomorrow I get to try to convince my son that staying out all night to "show his SOB dad something" is not a good idea.

Parenting is fun!
/

90 funky chicken  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 10:11:51pm

re: #88 Gus

I'm glad it's better. My husband just had back surgery, which has put him in a rather surly state of mind.

Sigh.

Good night!

91 austin_blue  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 10:13:40pm

re: #89 funky chicken

Well, I'm off to bed. I've got a big day tomorrow. My husband royally PO'd my teenage son tonight, accusing him of lying about how he got home late from a school sporting event. Tomorrow I get to try to convince my son that staying out all night to "show his SOB dad something" is not a good idea.

Parenting is fun!
/

Ah, teens, who consist *totally* of glandular secretions. Hang in there!

92 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 11:02:45pm

How about we grill everyone on the Sanford PD until we figure out where the crooked cops are

but that'll never happen, crooked cops are as american as apple pie

93 AK-47%  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 11:08:22pm

re: #92 windupbird is in the gravity well

How about we grill everyone on the Sanford PD until we figure out where the crooked cops are

but that'll never happen, crooked cops are as american as apple pie

One of our great articles of faith in America (along with trickle-down economics) is that more police=betterpolice protection.

It is also a matter of quality, not just quantity. One bad cop can undo the work of dozens of good ones. The Sanford PD really demonstrated that maxim.

94 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 27, 2012 11:55:10pm

re: #93 Second Amendment Renegation

One of our great articles of faith in America (along with trickle-down economics) is that more police=betterpolice protection.

It is also a matter of quality, not just quantity. One bad cop can undo the work of dozens of good ones. The Sanford PD really demonstrated that maxim.

more police can simply mean police state!

I think this is less of a single-bad-cop thing, and more of a systemic peddling of influences

sorta like politics! Police departments are political, and police departments in America can be just as evil as any dictatorships's secret police. Just look at that NYPD cop whistleblower


People think you don't get disappeared by the system in America? Bull fucking shit. If they thought they could execute him to make this go away, I guarantee you he'd be dead.

95 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 12:00:58am

re: #92 windupbird is in the gravity well

crooked cops are as american as apple pie old as civilization.

Sucks, but it's true.

96 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 12:04:32am

re: #94 windupbird is in the gravity well

when corruption reaches a certain critical density, you have not just passed the point of diminishing returns, you have an entire corrupt police department.

97 freetoken  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 12:20:58am
98 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 12:52:43am

drip, drip...

99 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 12:55:48am

re: #98 Second Amendment Renegation

drip, drip...

coffee?

100 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 12:58:53am

freetoken's audio postings, like an IV drip for a comatose thread.

meanwhile, for those of you who can no longer tell the difference between parody and reality in American politics:

Conservative Teen Magazine.

101 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 1:17:01am

re: #100 Second Amendment Renegation

freetoken's audio postings, like an IV drip for a comatose thread.

meanwhile, for those of you who can no longer tell the difference between parody and reality in American politics:

Conservative Teen Magazine.

heh. Back to my coffee and some lovely German baked goods. om NOM NOM.

102 researchok  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 1:20:09am

Morning, all

103 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 1:24:20am

re: #102 researchok

Morning, all

Welcome, coffee and danish at the back of the room. Freetoken's musical stylings on main stage right now.

104 researchok  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 1:27:57am

re: #103 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

I've been listening to FT's morning selections for a long time. Goes with the AM coffee.

105 EdDantes  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 1:30:30am

re: #97 freetoken

Lionel Hampton?

106 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 2:19:13am

Crap. Work network is down. And I have a bunch of work to do. :(

107 freetoken  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 2:59:00am
108 freetoken  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 3:04:02am

re: #105 EdDantes

Modern Jazz Quartet

109 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 3:51:42am

flatline

110 Shropshire_Slasher  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 3:57:40am

Passengers subdue 'screaming' JetBlue captain as mid-air rant diverts flight


Read more: [Link: www.nypost.com...]
Must be something in the water, or flying too close to the sun?!
Good morning Lizards!

111 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 3:59:23am

re: #110 Tommy's cone of shame

Passengers subdue 'screaming' JetBlue captain as mid-air rant diverts flight

Read more: [Link: www.nypost.com...]
Must be something in the water, or flying too close to the sun?!
Good morning Lizards!

People freak out every day, it's just when they do it on a passenger liner, it is cause for great alarm.

112 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 4:07:07am

re: #110 Tommy's cone of shame

I glanced at that yesterday afternoon but didn't realize that happened in the air until I read the story until last night. I sat and laughed so hard I think I pee'd a little. The people on that plane will a story to tell for the rest of their lives.....WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!

113 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 4:10:45am

An interesting development re:the arrest warrant. Seems like the SPD cops weren't as bad as thought at first. Who denied the warrant? The judge, I presume?

114 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 4:12:21am

re: #113 'M AFFN FUN

An interesting development re:the arrest warrant. Seems like the SPD cops weren't as bad as thought at first. Who denied the warrant? The judge, I presume?

Prosecutor. I thought it was leaked pretty early that the Sanford PD wanted him arrested for manslaughter (I mentioned it yesterday). Maybe people missed it or it was a figment of my imagination.

115 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 4:12:26am

re: #113 'M AFFN FUN

An interesting development re:the arrest warrant. Seems like the SPD cops weren't as bad as thought at first. Who denied the warrant? The judge, I presume?

All the more reason I am glad that the Justice Department is looking into this case. It is starting to stink at all levels...

116 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 4:13:12am

Aaand KT sweeps the bottom comments again... with a single comment!

117 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 4:13:48am

re: #114 RogueOne

I, for one, missed it if it was out there.

118 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 4:14:33am

re: #117 'M AFFN FUN

I'm almost positive I read about it last weekend, friday-ish. Don't remember where.

119 Shropshire_Slasher  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 4:15:41am

re: #116 'M AFFN FUN

Jesus built my hotrod, and he wore a hoodie!

120 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 4:20:26am

re: #119 Tommy's cone of shame

Jesus built my hotrod, and he wore a hoodie!

[Link: www.bewild.com...]

121 Shropshire_Slasher  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 4:24:16am

re: #120 Second Amendment Renegation

Showing my age:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
I was a rebel without a clue

122 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 4:27:23am

re: #118 RogueOne

I'm almost positive I read about it last weekend, friday-ish. Don't remember where.

Found it, thanks to my 'net history. It was last friday:

Trayvon Martin: Sources say police wanted charges filed
[Link: www.wftv.com...]

SANFORD, Fla. —

WFTV learned on Friday that Sanford police did recommend Trayvon Martin’s killer, George Zimmerman, be charged, possibly with manslaughter, but it didn't happen.

123 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 4:33:14am

7 Hutaree acquitted of most serious charges
[Link: www.detroitnews.com...]

The judge said the government's case was built largely on circumstantial evidence.

"While this evidence could certainly lead to a rational fact-finder to conclude that 'something fishy' was going on, it does not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that defendants reached a concrete agreement to forcibly oppose the United States government," Roberts wrote.

The judge's order cannot be appealed, said Peter Henning, a former prosecutor and current law professor at Wayne State University. That would constitute double jeopardy.
....
Meeks, now 42, smiled and embraced his attorney and supporters as he waited for his parents and brother outside the courthouse.

"Two years later, I still don't know what I did wrong," he said. "I'm just happy to be out and breathing fresh air."

The former Marine said he's looking forward to having some "decent food" and meeting his 1-year-old nephew.

Meeks said he plans to temporarily live with his parents in Manchester and hopes to return to his job at a recycling facility in Adrian.

When asked what he wanted to tell the public about his experience, he replied, "Watch what you say. Even the most innocent of statements can be bent. If they want to get you, they get you."

He added, "As far as I can tell, I got hosed. I'm just happy not to be in jail for the rest of my life."

Hate to say "I told you so" (not really//) but I told you so....

124 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 4:35:03am

Good Morning Honcos!!!

125 Shropshire_Slasher  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 4:35:05am

I thought the picture of Trayvon Drudge has on his website is fake. (with the dartboard in the background.)

126 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 4:37:33am

re: #125 Tommy's cone of shame

No, it's legit.

127 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 4:41:41am

I have two trips coming up for school. First is next week to Silicon Valley to meet with various companies. Later in April we leave for Beijing, Hong Kong and Ho Chi Min City. Should be interesting!

128 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 4:45:35am

re: #127 Darth Vader Gargoyle

Didn't you already go to Vietnam recently?

129 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 4:48:15am

re: #127 Darth Vader Gargoyle

I have two trips coming up for school. First is next week to Silicon Valley to meet with various companies. Later in April we leave for Beijing, Hong Kong and Ho Chi Min City. Should be interesting!

Have fun! I'd love a chance to visit HCM again, especially now that our son is old enough at 10 yo to really understand thats where he's from.

130 freetoken  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 4:52:21am

File under things forgotten: from reading my paternal grandfather's obit (died many years ago) I see that he went to college for a year - this would have been around 1902, probably in Illinois. It's only then that he went back into farming. Also noticed that his d.o.b. is different on the census of 1930 than on his gravestone.

Little things like that - who knows what really lurks in the background.

This little venture into genealogy was inspired by Louis Gates current PBS series.

131 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 4:56:10am

re: #123 RogueOne

Pity. Hope they don't thank the judge with a truck full of ammonium nitrate and fuel oil.

132 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 4:58:04am

re: #130 freetoken

For my bday last month my mom gave me a photo album with the only old pics we have of my bloodline. I found something interesting (my great-great-grandfather survived a year in Andersonville) that led me to a genealogy page from a distant cousin in OH. From there I found out that all the direct males in my bloodline lived to almost 90 (unless they died in an accident) and none of them had kids before they were 30. Kind of weird.

133 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 4:59:48am

re: #128 RogueOne

Didn't you already go to Vietnam recently?

Nope, no travel so far, just local field trips to industry groups and businesses that work with the Federal Government.

134 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:02:40am

re: #131 William Barnett-Lewis

Pity. Hope they don't thank the judge with a truck full of ammonium nitrate and fuel oil.

Unless the fed undercover agent gives them the idea and the materials I wouldn't worry about it.

(Doh! edited for clarity...)

135 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:08:05am

re: #125 Tommy's cone of shame

I thought the picture of Trayvon Drudge has on his website is fake. (with the dartboard in the background.)

Why did you think so? It's a picture from his twitter account.

136 freetoken  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:09:51am

re: #132 RogueOne

From there I found out that all the direct males in my bloodline lived to almost 90 (unless they died in an accident) and none of them had kids before they were 30. Kind of weird.

Weird, but not uncommon. My father, his father, his father... all married women 10 to 12 years younger than they, and fathered children in middle age. Well, except grandpa, who being a good farmer plowed the field every year (ahem...) and had with his wife many children, a few who died in childhood.

Genealogy is interesting. You could follow up on all your lineages, as you have 16 great great grandparents. I think I have records of 3 of my 16. There is no telling what you will find. And the stories you will uncover. For example, also forgotten by me was that my grandfather almost didn't make it (as a boy in the 19th century) to America as his ship was damaged by ice in a fjord at the start of the trip.

You never know what you'll find.

137 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:10:15am

re: #122 RogueOne

Well, you should have posted it here. It's quite an obscure source. But thanks ;)

138 Shropshire_Slasher  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:11:54am

re: #135 'M AFFN FUN

From what Gus was saying yesterday, it was from Stormfront?

139 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:12:17am

re: #138 Tommy's cone of shame

From what Gus was saying yesterday, it was from Stormfront?

No.

140 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:12:50am

re: #136 freetoken

One of my forebears was a hero in the Austrian Army. he was awarded a stipend to send his descendants to school. My maternal grandmother did not watn to go to school. they told her if she did not go to school, they would marry her off to some fellow in Cleveland.

She refused and was put on the boat in 1912.

141 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:16:06am

re: #136 freetoken

I've never been very curious about it until last month. I'm tempted to get hold of the distant cousin and see where I should start looking. I know some of my biological fathers history but not much. I only claim one of my bloodlines//

My gr-gr-grandfather (maternal) was the first child born in the US. (His parents were German immigrants living in KY.) I had heard part of the story about him being a POW but didn't know he was only 16 yrs old at the time.

142 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:17:57am

re: #140 Second Amendment Renegation

Wow. Being sent to Cleveland is still one hell of a punishment

143 freetoken  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:23:41am

re: #141 RogueOne

It's a super daunting task, to undertake a deep lineage. I am hardly an expert at it. On my paternal side, several years ago one cousin (there are many of us) undertook an effort and fleshed out some of it in the old countries (including a line in England back to the 17th century and Norway in the 18th century.) On my maternal side, a second cousin filled in some spots going back to nearly the Revolutionary war, in parts (I have that documentation now, but haven't studied it.)

Like I said, one never knows what one will find. If you have any ancestors that lived in this country since the 1700's than you and I are probably distantly related, or if you have any ancestors back in Norway or England likewise.

Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised that if all of us here traced our ancestors back 10 generations at least half of us would be related in that span.

Scary thought, eh?

144 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:24:52am

re: #5 Kragar

I guess its true what they say about real friends.

A friend will help you move, a best friend will help you move ... a body?

145 freetoken  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:25:38am

re: #140 Second Amendment Renegation

She refused and was put on the boat in 1912.

And here you are.

146 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:28:50am

re: #142 RogueOne

Wow. Being sent to Cleveland is still one hell of a punishment

She was forced to marry some fellow she did not know (my biological grandfather) with whom she had two children, my mother and aunt Helen. Then she ran off with a boarder, whom she later married and had my uncle Gabe.

I have never met my biological grandfather. He sent me a Christmas Card in 1969. That is about all I ever heard from him.

147 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:29:48am

re: #143 freetoken

It's a super daunting task, to undertake a deep lineage. I am hardly an expert at it. On my paternal side, several years ago one cousin (there are many of us) undertook an effort and fleshed out some of it in the old countries (including a line in England back to the 17th century and Norway in the 18th century.) On my maternal side, a second cousin filled in some spots going back to nearly the Revolutionary war, in parts (I have that documentation now, but haven't studied it.)

Like I said, one never knows what one will find. If you have any ancestors that lived in this country since the 1700's than you and I are probably distantly related, or if you have any ancestors back in Norway or England likewise.

Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised that if all of us here traced our ancestors back 10 generations at least half of us would be related in that span.

Scary thought, eh?

Not so much for me but probably you folks///

148 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:33:41am

re: #143 freetoken

I'd almost be afraid to look too deep into the family history.

My BF from HS and Freshman college roommate was adopted. A couple years he had some medical issues and started looking into finding his real parents. He managed to get his mothers real name and found what could be a 2 part Jerry Springer episode. Long story short, his mom was nuts who killed 2 people before offing herself and his dad is his grandfather.

149 freetoken  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:35:02am

re: #148 RogueOne

Like I said, you never know what you'll find.

150 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:37:33am

Morning Lizardim.

151 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:43:13am

Since I didn't see anyone quote this portion of the article yet...

“If you go with what was reported in the press the first night, there would have been an arrest right away, but obviously something gave investigators pause,” said a source in the Seminole State Attorney’s office who did not want to speak publicly, because the case is now assigned to a different prosecutor. “We get capias warrants all the time. That doesn’t mean we file charges right away. We investigate to see if it’s appropriate. That’s the responsible thing to do.’’

152 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:46:45am

re: #151 Killgore Trout

I concede that the PD looks much better with more information (although there are still some issues).

153 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:48:04am

re: #152 'M AFFN FUN

I concede that the PD looks much better with more information (although there are still some issues).

I'm sure there will legitimate things to complain about but so far much of it has been based on misinformation.

154 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:49:45am

Elderly Couple In Fear Over Spike Lee Tweet

Star erroneously linked Floridians to man who killed Trayvon Martin

155 Shropshire_Slasher  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:49:49am

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]re: #139 'M AFFN FUN

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Yep, I am wrong again.
At least I'm consistently wrong!

156 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:51:40am

re: #153 Killgore Trout

Not on misinformation, but incomplete information. If the SPD didn't even officially reveal that they wanted the arrest and we instead have to rely on unofficial sources for this crucial bit, then whose fault is this? The assumption that they didn't attempt to arrest him was reasonable.

157 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:53:36am

re: #154 Killgore Trout

Elderly Couple In Fear Over Spike Lee Tweet

More wingnut fodder.

158 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:54:49am

re: #155 Tommy's cone of shame

The picture of Trayvon Martin with naked torso giving two middle fingers is also authentic, it's just another Trayvon Martin, a namesake. This one has been debunked long ago but still appears all around the wingutosphere. The picture of our Trayvon (with the golden grill) is from his twitter account.

159 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 5:55:16am

re: #154 Killgore Trout

And that's why you don't post addresses.

160 compound_Idaho  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 6:09:55am

re: #130 freetoken

....This little venture into genealogy was inspired by Louis Gates current PBS series.

In the family genealogy database put together by my aunt, my wife has an ID number of 666. She swears my mother had something to do with that.

161 Shropshire_Slasher  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 6:18:28am

Recalling horror of Bergen-Belsen
WWII concentration camp survivor describes hellish experiences


Read more: [Link: www.timesunion.com...]

162 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 6:18:51am

The story behind Fiona, the blind dog whose video has gone viral
[Link: animaltracks.today.msnbc.msn.com...]

163 iossarian  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 6:26:47am

I am literally counting the hours until Jane Fonda is somehow implicated in the dastardly plot to turn the stalking and murder of an innocent black teenager into LIBRULS HATE MURICA!

164 iossarian  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 6:30:28am

I wonder how often the State Attorney turns down police requests to charge low-income black men who have been found in the vicinity of dead white men with smoking handguns.

"It's the responsible thing to do."

Statistics would be nice.

165 iossarian  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 6:37:26am

re: #148 RogueOne

I'd almost be afraid to look too deep into the family history.

My BF from HS and Freshman college roommate was adopted. A couple years he had some medical issues and started looking into finding his real parents. He managed to get his mothers real name and found what could be a 2 part Jerry Springer episode. Long story short, his mom was nuts who killed 2 people before offing herself and his dad is his grandfather.

Image: 9615285.jpg

166 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 6:44:14am

re: #22 Gus

Bottom line. On the most basic level GZ stalked, pursued -- whatever you want to call it -- Trayvon Martin. That puts him well outside of stand your ground (which remains a troubled piece of legislation).

Thank you for that. +1

167 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 6:46:04am

re: #22 Gus

Bottom line. On the most basic level GZ stalked, pursued -- whatever you want to call it -- Trayvon Martin. That puts him well outside of stand your ground (which remains a troubled piece of legislation).

In the mind of any normal person, that would be the case. But according to the letter of the law in Florida, Zimmermann had a right to be there. That is the trule f*cked up part of it.

168 iossarian  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 6:46:35am

re: #167 Second Amendment Renegation

In the mind of any normal person, that would be the case. But according to the letter of the law in Florida, Zimmermann had a right to be there. That is the trule f*cked up part of it.

Let's not have the whole SYG argument again, but say we did.

169 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 6:47:37am

re: #24 Lidane

The entire case is racial. Zimmerman's motive for stalking Martin was racial.

You simply can't separate that from this case at all.

Goons! he said "goons"! Goons ain't no race!!!

170 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 6:49:02am

re: #168 iossarian

Let's not have the whole SYG argument again, but say we did.

Not about to rehash it all. But the law is inherently flawed. I cannot imagine this case will get it repealed, but I do hope the law is amended to account for cases like this. In very clear language.

171 iossarian  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 6:50:51am

re: #170 Second Amendment Renegation

Not about to rehash it all. But the law is inherently flawed. I cannot imagine this case will get it repealed, but I do hope the law is amended to account for cases like this. In very clear language.

I was joking. I will gladly have this argument until the law is dead and in the ground.

Clearly the SYG law is a significant reason why Zimmerman will probably walk free after apparently hunting down and killing an unarmed teenager.

172 Achilles Tang  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 6:51:38am

We have an event coming up that involves a taste competition between Italian and Swedish meatballs.

Been racking our brains for a funny caption about "what did the Italian meatball say to the Swedish meatball?", or similar.

Yes, we did think of the one about size of balls, but thought that was not appropriate.

Any brilliant suggestions?

173 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 6:51:52am

re: #167 Second Amendment Renegation

Agreed. Gus' interpretation of the law is how the law should have been written in the first place. But it doesn't mean that the law as it stands doesn't stupidly shield GZ.

174 iossarian  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 6:52:56am

re: #172 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang

We have an event coming up that involves a taste competition between Italian and Swedish meatballs.

Been racking our brains for a funny caption about "what did the Italian meatball say to the Swedish meatball?", or similar.

Yes, we did think of the one about size of balls, but thought that was not appropriate.

Any brilliant suggestions?

"Can you eat any other part of the animal?"

175 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 6:53:35am

re: #136 freetoken

Genealogy is interesting. You could follow up on all your lineages, as you have 16 great great grandparents. I think I have records of 3 of my 16. There is no telling what you will find. And the stories you will uncover. For example, also forgotten by me was that my grandfather almost didn't make it (as a boy in the 19th century) to America as his ship was damaged by ice in a fjord at the start of the trip.

You never know what you'll find.

There are some gaps but it seems my family was here arriving on the colony ship Mary & John. 340 years or so.

176 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 6:53:49am

re: #169 Second Amendment Renegation

Goons! he said "goons"! Goons ain't no race!!!

FALSE.

177 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 6:54:45am

re: #169 Second Amendment Renegation

We've no idea what he actually said, but "goons" seems like an unlikely version.

178 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 6:55:45am

re: #177 'M AFFN FUN

We've no idea what he actually said, but "goons" seems like an unlikely version.

He said "blah".

179 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 6:56:55am

re: #168 iossarian

re: #171 iossarian

Obdicut motivated me to get into the case law. At worst, I have another way to fight my lifelong insomnia issues. Dry reading helps. At best another helpful Page.

180 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 6:57:05am

re: #178 Decatur Deb

He said "blah".

Tthat audio tape is like a Rohrschach test for racism. And I am afraid it will not stand up in a court of law, I mean "blah"...

181 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 6:57:08am

re: #178 Decatur Deb

For certain people, if all they were saying was "blah blah blah", it would've been a gigantic improvement.

182 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:09:47am

re: #179 Daniel Ballard

re: #171 iossarian

Obdicut motivated me to get into the case law. At worst, I have another way to fight my lifelong insomnia issues. Dry reading helps. At best another helpful Page.

I still don't think SYG is applicable here. If we've heard all the witnesses correctly then the last thing anyone saw was zimmerman on the ground on his back getting his ass kicked. If all the police have is zimmermans word for what happened in that last 60 seconds it's a standard self-defense claim.

183 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:09:52am

Good news from the frogs: For the first time since last year's rat invasion I heard more than one from at a time. Mr. Frog has moved to the strawberry planters near the breeding area. Mrs. Frog was about 15 feet away in the bamboo. They chatted for a while last night.

184 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:10:29am

re: #182 RogueOne

I still don't think SYG is applicable here. If we've heard all the witnesses correctly then the last thing anyone saw was zimmerman on the ground on his back getting his ass kicked. If all the police have is zimmermans word for what happened in that last 60 seconds it's a standard self-defense claim.

I suspect that's probably correct.

185 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:10:47am

re: #183 Killgore Trout

It's going to take a lot more than 2 frogs for a decent dinner this fall.

186 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:14:08am

re: #185 RogueOne

It's going to take a lot more than 2 frogs for a decent dinner this fall.

You'd be surprised. Last year I had only one breeding pair and 100's of froglets left the pond. They're small but you could fry them whole and eat them like popcorn.

187 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:14:17am

re: #178 Decatur Deb

The dog overnighter went remarkably well last night. We put up posters in the neighborhood where my wife found that dog last night, put an ad in the paper a couple on craigslist. One of her friends from work has been looking for a lab for her kids so she's going to babysit it until we get a response. If no one comes for him she might end up keeping it.

188 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:14:53am

re: #186 Killgore Trout

yeah.....I'll stick with popcorn chicken.

189 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:19:21am
190 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:21:05am

re: #183 Killgore Trout

Good news from the frogs: For the first time since last year's rat invasion I heard more than one from at a time. Mr. Frog has moved to the strawberry planters near the breeding area. Mrs. Frog was about 15 feet away in the bamboo. They chatted for a while last night.

Patio Frog has not yet returned,

At least I haven't seen him.

191 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:24:05am

re: #187 RogueOne

The dog overnighter went remarkably well last night. We put up posters in the neighborhood where my wife found that dog last night, put an ad in the paper a couple on craigslist. One of her friends from work has been looking for a lab for her kids so she's going to babysit it until we get a response. If no one comes for him she might end up keeping it.

Very good. Now it will depend on the dog's natural ability to become indispensable.

192 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:25:00am
193 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:26:33am

Got to hit the garden before the temps peak. For all practical purposes we have started Summer here. BBL

194 dragonfire1981  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:28:31am

In today's news from the "I told you so" department...

President Obama leads GOP rivals in Key states

President Barack Obama has pulled out front of Mitt Romney and Rick Santorum in Florida and Ohio, a Quinnipiac University Poll out Wednesday shows, while Pennsylvania remains too close to call.
Here's what the numbers show about the three battleground states:
Florida: Obama tops Romney 49 — 42 percent, and he beats Santorum 50 — 37 percent.
Ohio: Obama leads Romney 47 — 41 percent, and he is out front of Santorum 47 — 40 percent.
Pennsylvania, which is Santorum's home state: Obama edges Romney 45 — 42 percent, and he tops Santorum 48 — 41 percent.
Two months ago Obama and Romney were in a statistical tie in Ohio and Florida.

Women voters are making a difference for Obama, according to the poll. They back the president 6 to 19 percentage points in the three states. Most matchups among men are too close to call.

See what happens when you start micromanaging women and their sex lives?

195 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:28:52am

I have piles of paper to go thru and I'm procrastinating on LGF.

Anyone, but me, ever do that?

:0

196 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:29:55am

Morning Lizards.

197 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:29:56am

re: #191 Decatur Deb

Very good. Now it will depend on the dog's natural ability to become indispensable.

I'm sure someone is looking for him. He's a sweet dog and very mellow. He's house trained, clean and he knew sit/shake. Someone is missing their pet somewhere. I'm glad he's headed to stay with some kids, my wife and SiL had already decided we were keeping it. I was fighting a losing battle. Saved by facebook!

198 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:30:36am

re: #197 RogueOne

I'm sure someone is looking for him. He's a sweet dog and very mellow. He's house trained, clean and he knew sit/shake. Someone is missing their pet somewhere. I'm glad he's headed to stay with some kids, my wife and SiL had already decided we were keeping it. I was fighting a losing battle. Saved by facebook!

In my perfect world, every dog will have a kid or two!

199 darthstar  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:32:36am

Hey, I'm finally winning this battle with the flu I've been having. I was able to walk the dogs this morning and only threw up once! Progress!

200 iossarian  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:33:31am

re: #199 darthstar

Hey, I'm finally winning this battle with the flu I've been having. I was able to walk the dogs this morning and only threw up once! Progress!

aka "the technicolor yawn"

201 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:35:28am

re: #200 iossarian

aka "the technicolor yawn"

With the help of your trusty ACME 'vomit' prop.

202 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:36:35am

re: #199 darthstar

Feel better... *now where's that chicken soup!?*

203 darthstar  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:39:33am

re: #200 iossarian

aka "the technicolor yawn"

Theraflu tastes just as crappy coming up as it does going down. It wasn't bad...just a coughing fit related puke...not like I'm actually feeling sick or anything.

I'm actually going in for a stress echocardiogram this morning. Last Friday I had a scare while on ski patrol...got short of breath. Turns out it was just my body shutting down for the flu which I've been battling since, but my dad (retired GP) insists I get a stress test to make sure there's nothing wrong with my heart. Oh, and I turn 48 tomorrow. Maybe. ;)

204 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:41:17am

re: #203 darthstar

It's too late to leave a pretty corpse, you may as well stick around.

205 darthstar  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:43:46am

re: #204 RogueOne

It's too late to leave a pretty corpse, you may as well stick around.

Shit...does that mean I have to put up with people arguing that Mitt Romney would be better choice for President than Barack Obama for six months? Nobody actually believes that, though they'll pretend they do.

206 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:45:50am

re: #205 darthstar

Shit...does that mean I have to put up with people arguing that Mitt Romney would be better choice for President than Barack Obama for six months? Nobody actually believes that, though they'll pretend they do.

Keep complaining and I'll turn you into a zombie.
Then, you can hang out with zombie Mitt for eternity.
MUHAHAHAHA!

207 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:46:13am

re: #205 darthstar

Shit...does that mean I have to put up with people arguing that Mitt Romney would be better choice for President than Barack Obama for six months? Nobody actually believes that, though they'll pretend they do.

Thng is, they won't even try that approach. The bulk of the GOP campign will center around on how awful things will be if Obama is re-elected.

208 iossarian  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:47:37am

re: #207 Second Amendment Renegation

Thng is, they won't even try that approach. The bulk of the GOP campign will center around on how awful things will be if Obama is re-elected.

SOCIALISM!!!

(DJI 13,158)

209 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:48:18am

re: #206 Varek Raith

Keep complaining and I'll turn you into a zombie.
Then, you can hang out with zombie Mitt for eternity.
MUHAHAHAHA!

I didn't know you had those kinds of powers.

210 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:49:15am

re: #205 darthstar

Politics is good medicine for your heart. keeps everything flowing nicely with only minor side-effects like headaches, cotton-mouth and the occasional explosive bowel.

211 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:49:57am

re: #208 iossarian

SOCILISM!!! SHARIA!! GUTTING THE 2nd AMENDMENT!!! WAR ON RELIGION!!! etc...

(DJI 13,158)

212 Shropshire_Slasher  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:50:43am

re: #210 RogueOne

assplosive bowels only happens to me at Lowes, for some reason.
TMI?!

213 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:51:11am

There's a simple trick to stopping a zombie Mitt: Cut off the hair!

214 darthstar  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:52:37am

re: #210 RogueOne

Politics is good medicine for your heart. keeps everything flowing nicely with only minor side-effects like headaches, cotton-mouth and the occasional explosive bowel.

Occasional? If Petreaus knew about me he'd drag me to Iraq and point my ass at Iran.

215 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:52:44am

re: #213 Second Amendment Renegation

There's a simple trick to stopping a zombie Mitt: Cut off the hair!

Too Biblical.

216 darthstar  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:53:44am

Okay kids...gotta run...feed the dogs, make my wife a breakfast smoothie, and get to the doc's.

Play nice, and I'll catch you all on the flip side.

217 iossarian  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:53:56am

Good clean scatological fun on LGF!

HIPPIE PERVERTS!

218 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:55:39am

re: #215 'M AFFN FUN

Too Biblical.

I've never seen a mormon zombie. Maybe that's what the special underwear is for, to keep them from becoming part of a zombie horde.

219 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:57:15am

Advice please?
I need to get chains or cables for my 2wd truck so I can brave light snow on mountain roads. As a SoCal native, I have no idea which kind to buy. Studded tires are not an option, no storage. When I went up last weekend, an inch of snow on the road & a storm held my full attention to say the least. I don't mind slipping a bit here and there, but the cliffs of Hwy 2 over the mountains are unforgiving.

With chains, how bad can it get and be safe?

220 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:57:44am

re: #218 RogueOne

I've never seen a mormon zombie. Maybe that's what the special underwear is for, to keep them from becoming part of a zombie horde.

Nope. Doesn't protect them.

221 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:58:47am

Well, I emptied two file crates and put-in a load of laundry.

222 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 7:59:53am

re: #221 ggt

Well, I emptied two file crates and put-in a load of laundry.

FYI,
Laundering money is a crime.
;)

223 iossarian  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:01:16am

re: #219 Daniel Ballard

Advice please?
I need to get chains or cables for my 2wd truck so I can brave light snow on mountain roads. As a SoCal native, I have no idea which kind to buy. Studded tires are not an option, no storage. When I went up last weekend, an inch of snow on the road & a storm held my full attention to say the least. I don't mind slipping a bit here and there, but the cliffs of Hwy 2 over the mountains are unforgiving.

With chains, how bad can it get and be safe?

IMO, chains are really only useful on packed snow. When you're dealing with slush/slippery conditions I would go with winter tires (not studded).

224 Shropshire_Slasher  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:02:04am

Bee Gees star Robin Gibb hospitalized
[Link: www.nypost.com...]
Poor guy is was almost translucent the last time I saw him.

225 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:02:34am

re: #219 Daniel Ballard

Advice please?
I need to get chains or cables for my 2wd truck so I can brave light snow on mountain roads. As a SoCal native, I have no idea which kind to buy. Studded tires are not an option, no storage. When I went up last weekend, an inch of snow on the road & a storm held my full attention to say the least. I don't mind slipping a bit here and there, but the cliffs of Hwy 2 over the mountains are unforgiving.

With chains, how bad can it get and be safe?

Make sure your tires are properly inflated for the lower temperatures!

Makes a world of difference.

226 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:03:18am

re: #224 Tommy's cone of shame

Bee Gees star Robin Gibb hospitalized
[Link: www.nypost.com...]
Poor guy is was almost translucent the last time I saw him.

Wasn't he the one that always looks a wee bit under the weather?

227 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:03:20am

Has there been anything said about the actual moment Martin was shot? Do we know if they were standing or on the ground?

228 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:04:55am

re: #227 RogueOne

I assume you mean independent witnesses.
No.
No.

229 Shropshire_Slasher  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:05:44am

re: #219 Daniel Ballard

With chains you can only go about 30 mph, if tensioned properly.
They do make a chain system for large trucks and buses. it is permanently mounted on the truck and comes down like a flail.
[Link: www.onspot.com...]

230 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:06:29am

re: #228 'M AFFN FUN

I wasn't sure if zimmerman had said either way. He said he was going for the gun but do we know if zimmerman went for it first? Were they wrestling with it and he shot him or did he have a second to think about it first?

231 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:06:41am

I posted this last night.

Somehow, I think it is more apropos for the morning Lizard.

232 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:07:00am

re: #230 RogueOne

Only GZ knows.

233 Shropshire_Slasher  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:07:04am

re: #226 ggt

Yes, his brother died from intestinal complications, Robin had the same thing. Damn hereditary genes.

234 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:08:13am

re: #215 'M AFFN FUN

It's the Sampson option.

235 Shropshire_Slasher  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:08:13am

re: #231 ggt

HEY!!.......
aw, you are right.

236 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:08:54am

re: #234 lawhawk

It's the Sampson option.

Son of Samp!

237 iossarian  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:09:51am

re: #229 Tommy's cone of shame

With chains you can only go about 30 mph, if tensioned properly.
They do make a chain system for large trucks and buses. it is permanently mounted on the truck and comes down like a flail.
[Link: www.onspot.com...]

The other thing about chains is that you have to have somewhere to put them on (i.e., somewhere you can stop the car a safe distance from traffic).

Worth planning ahead for if you anticipate starting out without them and putting them on halfway up.

238 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:10:32am

re: #219 Daniel Ballard

Look at TireRack.com or Consumer Reports for all season/winter tires that work well with trucks. Chains work only under hardpack snow conditions, not necessarily slush. Winter tires are better suited for winter conditions, but since you're talking about a storage issue, better all weather tires might make a difference. Check inflation and tread depth to make sure that you're not running underinflated or without sufficient tread depth.

239 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:10:37am

re: #236 Second Amendment Renegation

Son of Samp!

Son of Sam.

240 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:11:03am

re: #227 RogueOne

We got nothing but GZ's word and whatever physical evidence. In a way the whole discussion about racism and the law has been orbiting a vacuum of information. We don't know who initiated the final confrontation.

Turns out it was not an immediate case of SYG in the minds of the police.

We do have this timeline, courtesy ABC news and we see the heart of the confrontation was not witnessed by anyone but GZ and Trayvor. That is the heart of the difficulty of a conviction. A lack of evidence. Unless we get another surprise like a video or another witness steps up.

241 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:11:14am

re: #239 'M AFFN FUN

It's a dog eat dog world out there...

242 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:11:58am

re: #241 lawhawk

It's a dog eat dog world out there...

Couldn't help it. That dog was sooo hot...

243 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:13:40am

re: #219 Daniel Ballard

Advice please?
I need to get chains or cables for my 2wd truck so I can brave light snow on mountain roads. As a SoCal native, I have no idea which kind to buy. Studded tires are not an option, no storage. When I went up last weekend, an inch of snow on the road & a storm held my full attention to say the least. I don't mind slipping a bit here and there, but the cliffs of Hwy 2 over the mountains are unforgiving.

With chains, how bad can it get and be safe?

If you can afford it these are really nice. The problem with chains is, of course, putting them on and taking them off. Look for something that that is less likely to tangle, even better if you can find something you can attach without having to reach into the wheel well. Important tip: Practice putting them on before you get on the mountain where fingers get wet and cold easily. Practice a couple times in your drive way.

244 iossarian  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:15:05am

re: #240 Daniel Ballard

We got nothing but GZ's word and whatever physical evidence. In a way the whole discussion about racism and the law has been orbiting a vacuum of information. We don't know who initiated the final confrontation.

I see it a bit differently. For me, the charge of racism is only partially aimed at Zimmerman, who as Obdicut has pointed out may well just have had the same vague racism that a lot of people have, in terms of assuming that a black teenager in a hoodie was up to no good.

The charge is much more aptly aimed at the assumption in the absence of evidence that Zimmerman acted in self defense, or indeed that there might even be a question that he did so. Because if the racial roles were reversed and the incident had occurred in an inner-city alleyway, there would be no question that the "urban thug" had not been acting in self-defense.

245 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:15:20am

re: #237 iossarian
re: #238 lawhawk
re: #229 Tommy's cone of shame
re: #225 ggt

Thank you. From what's been said I would have had to get out of the storm anyway. Even chains may not have been enough. I'll get a set for just in case. I need wild weather footage so over the next months I'll be driving to it as I can. Arizona monsoons here I come...

246 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:15:49am

I've lived with winter weather my whole life and have never been in a situation in which I needed chains or even a tow. This is what my Dear Ole' Dad said:

-Drive slow, you may be able to go faster in bad weather with a truck, but you can't stop any faster.

-Take care of your tires and have the proper ones for the conditions.

-Put bags of sand in your trunk or concrete blocks or whatever --(I think this was before front wheel drive became standard)

-keep your headlights clean --they can get dirty and reduce visability

-keep extra windshield wiper fluid in the car.

-Listen to the weather radio.

-having corregated cardboard or some plywood in the trunk you can put under the tires works if you get stuck.

-stay home

247 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:15:57am

Park Slope Co-op quashes anti-Israel boycott.

What a bunch of dopes to try and push that boycott in the first place. Guess we don't hear about their boycott of Syrian products, or Chinese, or Russian products, despite the human rights violations ongoing there. Not that there's much in the way of Syrian fruits or vegetables on the market or canned goods for that matter.

But then again, I doubt you'd be able to pry their smartphones, iPads, or PCs from their cold dead hands - despite the fact that Israeli technologies are built in to nearly every computer product on the market (courtesy of Intel, MSFT, and other companies that either have bought or incorporated Israeli tech into their own products or have design centers in Israel making tech that we now take for granted).

248 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:18:24am

re: #247 lawhawk

Same problem I have with any selective boycott.

249 iossarian  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:23:02am

BBL

250 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:23:30am

re: #243 Killgore Trout

If you can afford it these are really nice. The problem with chains is, of course, putting them on and taking them off. Look for something that that is less likely to tangle, even better if you can find something you can attach without having to reach into the wheel well. Important tip: Practice putting them on before you get on the mountain where fingers get wet and cold easily. Practice a couple times in your drive way.

Now those look like something reliable. Non interference with ABS is critical. Maybe as summer comes i can get a better price. The odds of another snowstorm here this season are slim. Being forced to turn away from a good chance to get footage I need was kind of a burn at the time. D_L and I were very careful. It's creepy to feel ABS kick in with very light braking.

That same night on the same highway a lady went over the edge in her trucks hit her head and spent a cold night 300 ft down a cliffside. She was rescued the next morning. I'm glad we flinched and came back.

251 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:23:43am

re: #230 RogueOne

The gun was in a waistband holster and, i believe, not visible. It was the type that's meant for concealing. If that was the case then the only way Trayvon could have gone for the gun was if the gun was drawn and then to me it would have been self-defense on the part of Trayvon.

252 Gus  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:24:26am

It's interesting to watch how differently people react to the JetBlue pilot who "went crazy" as opposed to the young black woman that "went crazy" in that college classroom.

253 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:24:44am

I found a picture of my mom as a little girl in the piles of paper I've so far sorted.

She was in the ordination mass of a priest from their home town. Man it was a huge deal getting ordained in the way back era. She was the "bridesmaid"?

One little girl is the "bride"?

As I understand it, it is a symbolic representation of the priest marrying the church.

Anyway, it was a HUGE honor for my mom to be chosen.

creepy if you ask me.

254 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:26:48am

re: #252 Gus

It's interesting to watch how differently people react to the JetBlue pilot who "went crazy" as opposed to the young black woman that "went crazy" in that college classroom.

I missed both those stories.

Where have I been?

255 Gus  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:27:03am

Welcome to Murica!

Yeehaa! Dress codes in Congress! Let's go invade Iran! Derp.

256 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:27:56am

re: #253 ggt

I found a picture of my mom as a little girl in the piles of paper I've so far sorted.

She was in the ordination mass of a priest from their home town. Man it was a huge deal getting ordained in the way back era. She was the "bridesmaid"?

One little girl is the "bride"?

As I understand it, it is a symbolic representation of the priest marrying the church.

Anyway, it was a HUGE honor for my mom to be chosen.

creepy if you ask me.

Imagine if Muslims had a similar ritual.

257 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:28:55am

re: #256 'M AFFN FUN

Imagine if Muslims had a similar ritual.

She doesn't remember much about it, other than it was a huge deal. Very German-Irish Catholic family.

258 Gus  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:29:00am

re: #254 ggt

I missed both those stories.

Where have I been?

Search for the young lady, and for the pilot, here.

Big differences IMO.

260 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:30:22am

re: #255 Gus

There's a dress code for Congress, that's generally strictly enforced despite its vagueness.

The rules are vague but rigorously enforced: Coat and tie for men, “appropriate attire” for women. Jack Kennedy reportedly caused a scandal by wearing golf shoes onto the Senate floor. Then-Rep. Pat Schroeder supposedly broke tradition as the first woman to wear pants on the House floor in the 1970’s — though some accounts say it was Susan Molinari or Cynthia McKinney. (Update, 12/21: Rep. Charlotte Reid was the first in pants)

Hill veterans say Sen. Robert Byrd used to lecture female senators about open-toed shoes; John Ensign, who frequently jogged on the mall, would run in and borrow a jacket in order to cast his vote.

Sleeveless dress were once forbidden, but that was before Michelle Obama displayed her bare arms in the House chamber. The random turtleneck has been tolerated, but the no-hat provision has been enforced for more than 150 years. Bella Abzug couldn’t change it; freshman Rep. Frederica Wilson — known for her signature toppers back in Florida — fully expected that Speaker John Boehner would overturn the ban. But eleven months later, she told us she’s “still wishing and hoping.”

They've put so much effort into that, but not into making sure that they can balance budgets or otherwise spend like drunken sailors.

261 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:30:54am

re: #255 Gus

Welcome to Murica!

Yeehaa! Dress codes in Congress! Let's go invade Iran! Derp.

"The member is no longer recognized."

Heh.

262 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:31:38am

re: #260 lawhawk

There's a dress code for Congress, that's generally strictly enforced despite its vagueness.

They've put so much effort into that, but not into making sure that they can balance budgets or otherwise spend like drunken sailors.

"YOU LIE!"

263 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:31:54am

re: #258 Gus

Search for the young lady, and for the pilot, here.

Big differences IMO.

Now, that's some serious attitude from the student!

my normal response --off her meds.

On to the pilot.

264 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:32:16am

re: #260 lawhawk

They also should make it obligatory to wear a brain. At least once in a while.

265 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:34:40am

re: #258 Gus

Search for the young lady, and for the pilot, here.

Big differences IMO.

Pilots are under extreme pressure. I wouldn't want their nightmares, much less post 911.

Both situation seem to be medical issues.

266 abolitionist  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:35:00am

Case law, indirectly related to the Trayvon case:
Miami Judge Rules in 'Stand Your Ground' Case
MIAMI March 28, 2012 (AP)

A judge has dismissed a murder charge against a man who chased and fatally stabbed a suspected thief, citing the same self-defense law at the center of the Trayvon Martin case.

267 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:35:24am

re: #264 'M AFFN FUN

They also should make it obligatory to wear a brain. At least once in a while.

I thought you had your brain removed prior to making the decision to enter politics.

268 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:39:30am

re: #260 lawhawk

There's a dress code for Congress, that's generally strictly enforced despite its vagueness.

As long at is is equally applied. The matter with the hoodie is that it applies only to blacks and Latinos...

269 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:41:10am

There is a United Catholic Church that is recognized by the Vatican?

Who Knew?

270 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:42:42am

re: #269 ggt

There is a United Catholic Church that is recognized by the Vatican?

Who Knew?

they ordain women and married men.

wonder if the women can marry too?

271 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:43:08am

re: #266 abolitionist

Case law, indirectly related to the Trayvon case:
Miami Judge Rules in 'Stand Your Ground' Case
MIAMI March 28, 2012 (AP)

That's not self defense.
It's not even 'standing your ground'.
It's vigilantism.

272 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:44:56am
273 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:45:25am

yup

274 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:46:11am

re: #266 abolitionist

Case law, indirectly related to the Trayvon case:
Miami Judge Rules in 'Stand Your Ground' Case
MIAMI March 28, 2012 (AP)

There you go. Critics of SYG were right all along. "Stand your ground" doesn't mean standing and not pursuing. So under this law the fact that GZ was stalking TM is irrelevant.

275 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:48:02am

re: #253 ggt

I found a picture of my mom as a little girl in the piles of paper I've so far sorted.

She was in the ordination mass of a priest from their home town. Man it was a huge deal getting ordained in the way back era. She was the "bridesmaid"?

One little girl is the "bride"?

As I understand it, it is a symbolic representation of the priest marrying the church.

Anyway, it was a HUGE honor for my mom to be chosen.

creepy if you ask me.

That wasn't the way the Franciscans did it in the 60s. Sounds like some local decisions to soup up the ordination. (There are lots of non-liturgical variations on ceremonies, especially under the influence of heavily-ethnic parishes. When it gets too creative, the local authority knocks it down.)

276 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:48:18am

WHAT would we do without George Carlin?

277 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:48:53am

re: #275 Decatur Deb

That wasn't the way the Franciscans did it in the 60s. Sounds like some local decisions to soup up the ordination. (There are lots of non-liturgical variations on ceremonies, especially under the influence of heavily-ethnic parishes. When it gets too creative, the local authority knocks it down.)

This was MaryKnoll Priest and in the 1930's.

Who knows . . .

278 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:51:44am

re: #277 ggt

This was MaryKnoll Priest and in the 1930's.

Who knows . . .

Yeah. The "Bride of Christ" metaphor was common for nuns. Never heard of a priest as "married to the Church", except as a description of the expected degree of dedication, especially moving at a superior's order.

279 abolitionist  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:52:30am

re: #271 Varek Raith

That's not self defense.
It's not even 'standing your ground'.
It's vigilantism.

Maybe. Do you agree with this part? Bloom said Garcia "was well within his rights to pursue the victim and demand the return of his property."

280 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:52:51am

re: #278 Decatur Deb

Yeah. The "Bride of Christ" metaphor was common for nuns. Never heard of a priest as "married to the Church", except as a description of the expected degree of dedication, especially moving at a superior's order.

And no fooling around outside of marriage...

281 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:53:17am

re: #278 Decatur Deb

Yeah. The "Bride of Christ" metaphor was common for nuns. Never heard of a priest as "married to the Church", except as a description of the expected degree of dedication, especially moving at a superior's order.

Even "Bride of Christ" is creepy to me.

282 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:53:35am

re: #279 abolitionist

Maybe. Do you agree with this part? Bloom said Garcia "was well within his rights to pursue the victim and demand the return of his property."

I don't agree with it because I don't agree with the law. But that is how it stands.

283 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:53:43am

re: #279 abolitionist

Maybe. Do you agree with this part? Bloom said Garcia "was well within his rights to pursue the victim and demand the return of his property."

So it's really the "Chase Down and Shoot/Stab Someone (CDSSS)" law.

284 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:54:27am

re: #281 ggt

Even "Bride of Christ" is creepy to me.

Polygamy.

285 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:54:41am

re: #279 abolitionist

Maybe. Do you agree with this part? Bloom said Garcia "was well within his rights to pursue the victim and demand the return of his property."

I do not.
That's for the cops, not you.

286 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:55:01am

re: #250 Daniel Ballard

Mr. Ballard - care to comment?

A judge has dismissed a murder charge against a man who chased and fatally stabbed a suspected thief, citing the same self-defense law at the center of the Trayvon Martin case.

You were asked, over and over, where you found evidence to back your interpretation that Zimmerman pursuing Martin negated his ability to use a SYG defense. In lieu of you providing such evidence, mind if we go forward based on the judge's interpretation?

287 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:55:12am

re: #285 Varek Raith

I do not.
That's for the cops, not you.

I disagree, if someone stole my purse, I WANT IT BACK!!!!!

288 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:55:38am

re: #281 ggt

Even "Bride of Christ" is creepy to me.

A bit, and it has historically gone bad at times. Check out the story of "The Devils of Loudun", but go past the fictionalized accounts to the documented.

289 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:56:19am

re: #287 ggt

I disagree, if someone stole my purse, I WANT IT BACK!!!

Scaaaarrrryyyy.
*hides*

290 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:56:28am

re: #279 abolitionist

Maybe. Do you agree with this part? Bloom said Garcia "was well within his rights to pursue the victim and demand the return of his property."

"F*cking c***s. They always get away!"

/

291 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:57:06am

re: #287 ggt

I disagree, if someone stole my purse, I WANT IT BACK!!!

And you have the right to stab them to death to get it back, right?

292 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:57:21am

re: #279 abolitionist

Maybe. Do you agree with this part? Bloom said Garcia "was well within his rights to pursue the victim and demand the return of his property."

Under the law, he was within his rights not only to demand the return of the property, but to kill the thief. Under previous legal standards, he would have needed to use deadly force only as a "last resort."

There are repercussions to changing the "last resort" standard. This is what they look like - as does the outcome of Zimmerman not getting changed for killing Martin.

294 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:58:51am

re: #291 Second Amendment Renegation

And you have the right to stab them to death to get it back, right?

No.

Well, unless they are violent when I catch-up to them.

I have a right to get my purse back.

A purse is a bit like a horse in the old times. Horse thievery was a big deal because it meant a man's livelihood or even his ability to survive.

I feel that way about my purse.

295 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:59:27am

re: #292 Talking Point Detective

Under the law, he was within his rights not only to demand the return of the property, but to kill the thief.

That's a bit of misleading language. He wasn't within his rights to just kill the thief, only to kill under the circumstances prescribed by the law:

a bag of stolen car radios Pedro Roteta swung at Greyston Garcia amounted to a lethal threat

296 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:59:45am

Let's just give everyone AKs and be done with it.

297 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:00:24am

re: #296 Varek Raith

Let's just give everyone AKs and be done with it.

Sounds like a plan.

But you are already undead.

298 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:00:36am

re: #296 Varek Raith

Let's just give everyone AKs and be done with it.

Only with proper training.

299 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:00:48am

re: #297 ggt

Sounds like a plan.

But you are already undead.

He was hoping you wouldn't notice that part.

300 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:01:07am

re: #297 ggt

Sounds like a plan.

But you are already undead.

Yeah, but getting shot still hurts like hell!

301 Kronocide  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:01:13am

re: #290 Second Amendment Renegation

"F*cking c***s. They always get away!"

Oh yes, he said it. Very clearly.

302 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:01:45am

re: #296 Varek Raith

Let's just give everyone AKs and be done with it.

If Trayvon Martin had been properly armed, he would be alive today (and probably still in jail).

303 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:02:01am

re: #300 Varek Raith

Yeah, but getting shot still hurts like hell!

Really?

304 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:02:16am

bbl

305 Shropshire_Slasher  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:02:16am

re: #294 ggt

Me too.
My man purse that is

306 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:02:35am

re: #297 ggt

Sounds like a plan.

But you are already undead.

That's downright vitalist that is I'd expect better from LGF!

307 simoom  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:02:45am

GOP Solyndra probe has come up empty, but has succeeded in spooking green energy investment and providing fodder for SuperPAC ads:

[Link: www.politico.com...]

More than a year into a probe that's extended to the Energy Department loan guarantee portfolio, Republican investigators even acknowledge they've fallen short of substantiating their allegations that the administration helped political allies like Tulsa oilman George Kaiser secure hundreds of millions of dollars in subsidies through a loan guarantee to Solyndra.

"Is there a criminal activity? Perhaps not," Oversight and Government Reform Committee Chairman Darrell Issa told POLITICO after last Tuesday’s showdown with Energy Secretary Steven Chu. "Is there a political influence and connections? Perhaps not. Did they bend the rules for an agenda, an agenda not covered within the statute? Absolutely."

In some respects, Republicans have accomplished their mission. Even if no one goes to jail, they've turned Solyndra into a four-letter word, vilified the Nobel laureate Chu and left a popular DOE program in shambles. They also make no bones about how they've turned Solyndra into a campaign issue.

"Ultimately, we'll stop it on Election Day, hopefully," Rep. Jim Jordan (R-Ohio) told Environment & Energy Daily. "And bringing attention to these things helps the voters and citizens of the country make the kind of decision that I hope helps them as they evaluate who they are going to vote for in November."

Solyndra’s presence can be seen on the campaign trail, from the swing state TV ads paid for by the Koch brothers-linked nonprofit group Americans for Prosperity to Mitt Romney's perpetual use of "crony capitalism" during his stump speech.

...

Joshua Freed, a vice president for clean energy at the think tank Third Way, said the GOP investigation has also had another effect for renewable energy. It's "understandably spooked a lot of investors," Freed said during a recent energy conference. "They want to make money for the folks that they raise it from. They don't want to be called before Congress to testify or have their investments looked into by congressional committees."

But when it comes to substance, GOP officials have sent plenty of signals their investigation into the DOE loan guarantee program is on its last legs.

308 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:03:05am

re: #295 'M AFFN FUN

That's a bit of misleading language. He wasn't within his rights to just kill the thief, only to kill under the circumstances prescribed by the law:

I'm not sure that it was misleading - but adding more specificity is always a good thing to do.

The point is that this killing was not a criminal offense under SYG, whereas under other standards previously in place, it would have been.

309 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:04:02am

re: #294 ggt

No.

Well, unless they are violent when I catch-up to them.

I have a right to get my purse back.

A purse is a bit like a horse in the old times. Horse thievery was a big deal because it meant a man's livelihood or even his ability to survive.

I feel that way about my purse.

I assume you are being facetious here, but this is something I see as a sign that society has progressed: we have come to value life over property.

One of the main arguments against abolition of slavery was that it constituted government confiscation of the slaveholders' property, and hence, their livelihoods.

310 Simply Sarah  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:04:18am

re: #305 Tommy's cone of shame

Me too.
My man purse that is

Nonsense. A purse is a purse and everyone should consider one because they're damn handy and useful.

311 abolitionist  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:04:18am

re: #290 Second Amendment Renegation

"F*cking c***s. They always get away!"

/

re: #301 Kronocide

Oh yes, he said it. Very clearly.

Two seperate statements by GZ, and not in that order.

312 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:04:44am

I'm going to put a 105mm howitzer on my front lawn and eye people suspiciously.

313 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:06:36am

re: #311 abolitionist

re: #301 Kronocide

Two seperate statements by GZ, and not in that order.

And one had nothing to do with the other and neither had anything to do with the incident...

/

314 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:07:17am

re: #308 Talking Point Detective

Probably agreed re: this case, just pointing out that the broad clause ("Under the law, he was within his rights ... to kill the thief") includes lots of killing not permitted by the law, e.g. shooting the thief in the back.

315 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:08:06am

re: #301 Kronocide

Oh yes, he said it. Very clearly.

No, not clearly. We still don't know what he said.

316 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:08:43am

re: #314 'M AFFN FUN

Probably agreed re: this case, just pointing out that the broad clause ("Under the law, he was within his rights ... to kill the thief") includes lots of killing not permitted by the law, e.g. shooting the thief in the back.

It's just like Fallout!
/Wish I were kidding

317 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:09:39am

re: #314 'M AFFN FUN

Probably agreed re: this case, just pointing out that the broad clause ("Under the law, he was within his rights ... to kill the thief") includes lots of killing not permitted by the law, e.g. shooting the thief in the back.

Fair enough. I doubt that anyone would interpret my comment that way - but I left a big hole in what I said. Correction welcomed and acknowledged.

318 Kronocide  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:16:57am

re: #315 'M AFFN FUN

No, not clearly. We still don't know what he said.

I listened to the recording. He said 'F-ing C***s.'

319 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:18:22am

re: #318 Kronocide

I listened to the recording. He said 'F-ing C***s.'

No, it's not clear. Different people hear it differently. Obdicut, SFZ and me don't hear 'coons' because the vowel doesn't sound anything like [u:]. Other people heard different words, e.g. Gus hears 'punks'.

320 abolitionist  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:30:02am

re: #318 Kronocide

I listened to the recording. He said 'F-ing C***s.'

Mere seconds after saying (clearly) Shit, he's running. And not so many seconds after saying (clearly) These assholes, they always get away.

One person reported that GZ was straddling TM (who was face down after being shot), and GZ was pressing his hands on TM's back. I think this bit may turn out to be significant, if this case ever goes to trial.

/I was giving CPR. Yeah, that's it.

321 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:30:09am

re: #319 'M AFFN FUN

No, it's not clear. Different people hear it differently. Obdicut, SFZ and me don't hear 'coons' because the vowel doesn't sound anything like [u:]. Other people heard different words, e.g. Gus hears 'punks'.

Just curious - have you listened to the recordings that have been edited to isolate the consonant sound at the beginning of the second word? Of course, confirmation bias is suspect (the influence of him constantly calling 911 about black males has to be there) - but those recordings do sound pretty conclusive to me that he's using a racial epithet.

322 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:30:13am

re: #310 Simply Sarah

Nonsense. A purse is a purse and everyone should consider one because they're damn handy and useful.

It's OK if you call it a 'ruck'.

(Tribeswomen in parts of Papua, at least 50 years ago, had almost no personal possessions. The most important thing in their inventory was a large loosely-woven carry-all. The ur-purse.)

323 Kronocide  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:30:46am

re: #319 'M AFFN FUN

I've heard the word spoken many times so maybe that has something to do with it. It was pretty clear to me.

324 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:31:14am

re: #322 Decatur Deb

It's OK if you call it a 'ruck'.

(Tribeswomen in parts of Papua, at least 50 years ago, had almost no personal possessions. The most important thing in their inventory was a large loosely-woven carry-all. The ur-purse.)

Satchel.

Messenger Bag.

Briefcase (square purse).

325 Gus  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:32:10am

re: #260 lawhawk

There's a dress code for Congress, that's generally strictly enforced despite its vagueness.

They've put so much effort into that, but not into making sure that they can balance budgets or otherwise spend like drunken sailors.

Was on the phone...

Bella Abzug!

326 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:32:44am

re: #321 Talking Point Detective

Just curious - have you listened to the recordings that have been edited to isolate the consonant sound at the beginning of the second word? Of course, confirmation bias is suspect (the influence of him constantly calling 911 about black males has to be there) - but those recordings to sound pretty conclusive to me that he's using a racial epithet.

Yes, I - and others here - have listened to the raw recording, to the recording cleaned up by some TV team (CNN?), to the recording cleaned up by goddamnfrank. The results were the same.

And I assure you that the people listed in the previous comment aren't out to defend GZ. We just don't hear it.

327 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:32:58am

re: #286 Talking Point Detective

A trial court decision is persuasive but not definitive. If the FL appellate courts or FL supreme court reached that decision, then all lower courts must follow since the FL supreme court is the final word on Florida law (or lower courts in the appellate court's jurisdiction). Thus, another trial court judge could rule that this SYG is inapplicable in such situations and therefore GZ is subject to prosecution (with the usual defenses intact - self defense, etc.).

328 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:33:45am

re: #324 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Satchel.

Messenger Bag.

Briefcase (square purse).

Image: travels-papua-new-guinea-bags.jpg

329 Gus  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:34:01am

re: #315 'M AFFN FUN

No, not clearly. We still don't know what he said.

I'm still banking on "punks." We'll have to wait for the "NTSB" report.

330 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:34:22am

re: #318 Kronocide

I listened to the recording. He said 'F-ing C***s.'

It's like an audio Rorhschach test for racists. Unfortunately, it will get picked to pieces if it comes up in court as an indication of racist intent on his part.

331 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:34:48am

re: #327 lawhawk

A trial court decision is not absolutely definitive, but it is much more authoritative than whatever we discuss online in this regard.

332 Simply Sarah  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:35:30am

re: #324 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Satchel.

Messenger Bag.

Briefcase (square purse).

All I know is that the reason I don't carry a Swiss Army Knife in mine is because I'm afraid it might cause the purse to implode as a result. I don't get how people can get by without one.

333 Gus  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:35:36am

re: #330 Second Amendment Renegation

It's like an audio Rorhschach test for racists. Unfortunately, it will get picked to pieces if it comes up in court as an indication of racist intent on his part.

Really? How does that "test" work?

334 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:36:14am

re: #331 'M AFFN FUN

This is absolutely true, but if a trial judge is presented this case, they don't have to go on the authority of another trial court judge and rule independently. It would likely involve some forum shopping (finding a judge predisposed to limit SYG in this context).

335 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:37:03am

re: #326 'M AFFN FUN

And I assure you that the people listed in the previous comment aren't out to defend GZ. We just don't hear it.

No assurances necessary. It's clearly not conclusive.

What I'm surprised about is that there haven't been more scientific analyses done. You can characterize various consonant and vowel sounds by a digital signal. Maybe there's too much noise to do so, but I would imagine that there can be more data added than just an analog interpretation.

336 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:37:04am

re: #331 'M AFFN FUN

A trial court decision is not absolutely definitive, but it is much more authoritative than whatever we discuss online in this regard.

Are you implying a court ruling carries more weight than discussions on LGF?!?!?!

BLASPHEMY!!
//

337 Simply Sarah  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:37:31am

re: #331 'M AFFN FUN

A trial court decision is not absolutely definitive, but it is much more authoritative than whatever we discuss online in this regard.

Clearly, the way to fix that is to instate an LGF Court of Appeals!

338 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:38:31am

re: #337 Simply Sarah

Clearly, the way to fix that is to instate an LGF Court of Appeals!

Hon. S. Beaumont, presiding.

339 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:39:17am

re: #333 Gus

Really? How does that "test" work?

I am going out on a limb here. He said "f*cking c***s" and if you don't hear that you have something wrong with your ears or your brains.

But on the other hand, it is not going to stand up in court, so that assessment is irrelevant to the case.

340 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:39:36am

re: #330 Second Amendment Renegation

It's like an audio Rorhschach test for racists.

Not quite sure what you mean. Non-racists here hear different things. So it tests for what, exactly?

341 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:39:39am

re: #321 Talking Point Detective

(the influence of him constantly calling 911 about black males has to be there) -

I've also seen claims that the frequency of his calls to police has been greatly exaggerated. It wasn't 96 times this year, it was more like 46 since 2004.

342 Gus  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:39:45am

re: #339 Second Amendment Renegation

I am going out on a limb here. He said "f*cking c***s" and if you don't hear that you have something wrong with your ears or your brains.

But on the other hand, it is not going to stand up in court, so that assessment is irrelevant to the case.

343 jaunte  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:39:57am

re: #337 Simply Sarah

LGF Court of Appeals: We Chop Both Logic And Broccoli.

344 Gus  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:40:19am

re: #339 Second Amendment Renegation

I am going out on a limb here. He said "f*cking c***s" and if you don't hear that you have something wrong with your ears or your brains.

But on the other hand, it is not going to stand up in court, so that assessment is irrelevant to the case.

OK. Hope this condition of yours doesn't last all day. ;)

345 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:40:34am

re: #309 Second Amendment Renegation

I assume you are being facetious here, but this is something I see as a sign that society has progressed: we have come to value life over property.

One of the main arguments against abolition of slavery was that it constituted government confiscation of the slaveholders' property, and hence, their livelihoods.

Listen, my wedding ring is insured, most things can be replaced. If I lose my purse, I am seriously fucked-up.

346 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:40:55am

re: #344 Gus

"We're losing him!"

347 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:41:13am

re: #340 'M AFFN FUN

Not quite sure what you mean. Non-racists here hear different things. So it tests for what, exactly?

I think he's talking about the presentation. I wasn't comfortable with it either. Playing that clip on a loop with the suggestion that he's saying "coons" can lead people to think they hear something that's not there.

348 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:41:18am

re: #343 jaunte

LGF Court of Appeals: We Chop Both Logic And Broccoli.

We fog no petti before its time.

349 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:41:22am

re: #327 lawhawk

A trial court decision is persuasive but not definitive. If the FL appellate courts or FL supreme court reached that decision, then all lower courts must follow since the FL supreme court is the final word on Florida law (or lower courts in the appellate court's jurisdiction). Thus, another trial court judge could rule that this SYG is inapplicable in such situations and therefore GZ is subject to prosecution (with the usual defenses intact - self defense, etc.).

Sure. But in from what I've seen, confident assertions are being made that the pursuit of Martin invalidates a SYG defense. I didn't see legal wording to support that interpretation - it seems to me more like a common sense overlay that would make sense but isn't well-supported. At least some making the claim (read Baxley) have something to gain from their interpretation.

In lieu of more solid evidence, I think that the judge's ruling stands as a pretty solid precedent.

350 Sionainn  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:41:27am

I have a question...didn't Oliver in the above segments with O'Donnell claim that he hasn't talked to Zimmerman at all, that he has been trying to get hold of him? If that's the case, where is Oliver getting his information, or is he just making shit up?

351 jaunte  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:42:09am

re: #339 Second Amendment Renegation

I am going out on a limb here. He said "f*cking c***s" and if you don't hear that you have something wrong with your ears or your brains.

I'm certainly inclined to hear him say that, but I can't say for sure that he does.

352 Gus  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:42:14am

re: #346 'M AFFN FUN

"We're losing him!"

Initiate Tai chi and/or morning breathing exercise immediately! CODE RED!

353 Sionainn  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:42:21am

re: #341 Killgore Trout

I've also seen claims that the frequency of his calls to police has been greatly exaggerated. It wasn't 96 times this year, it was more like 46 since 2004.

Forty-six 911 calls is an awful lot of calls.

354 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:42:27am

re: #347 Killgore Trout

Well, see #339. Since we're neither deaf nor racist, what he said is pretty stupid. But whatever.

355 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:43:10am

re: #351 jaunte

I'm certainly inclined to hear him say that, but I can't say for sure that he does.

Vague racist!/

356 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:43:42am

re: #341 Killgore Trout

I've also seen claims that the frequency of his calls to police has been greatly exaggerated. It wasn't 96 times this year, it was more like 46 since 2004.

Does that include the call about the 7-9 year old black kid?

357 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:44:58am

re: #350 Sionainn

I have a question...didn't Oliver in the above segments with O'Donnell claim that he hasn't talked to Zimmerman at all, that he has been trying to get hold of him? If that's the case, where is Oliver getting his information, or is he just making shit up?

I don't think the facts are particularly important, the whole segment looked like a giant derpfest to me. No new facts or perspective. Just angry people on tv yelling at each other.
Joe Oliver, not a ‘close friend’ of George Zimmerman

358 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:45:15am

High speed school bus chase.

Bonnie and Clyde ending.

359 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:45:33am

re: #353 Sionainn

Forty-six 911 calls is an awful lot of calls.

Maybe he got drunk on his front porch a bunch of times and needed to pee.

Deputies: Drunk woman calls 911 to say she was lost in woods, did not know where to urinate

360 Gus  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:45:52am

re: #340 'M AFFN FUN

Not quite sure what you mean. Non-racists here hear different things. So it tests for what, exactly?

Apparently Charles M. Blow is failing this alleged "Rorhschach test." Interesting concept though. I could use it for a cartoon or something. ;)

361 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:46:00am

re: #356 Talking Point Detective

Does that include the call about the 7-9 year old black kid?

I have no idea.

362 Sionainn  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:46:41am

re: #357 Killgore Trout

I don't think the facts are particularly important, the whole segment looked like a giant derpfest to me. No new facts or perspective. Just angry people on tv yelling at each other.
Joe Oliver, not a ‘close friend’ of George Zimmerman

If Oliver isn't a close friend and hasn't even spoken to him, how can he possibly be the spokesperson for Zimmerman? It's ridiculous!

363 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:46:48am

I have fifteen minutes to kill so I thought I'd check in for the first time in
...5 months or so!!
...and I choose y'all!!
Don't ya feel speeecial??lol
Hope all is well with everyone!

364 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:47:11am
365 abolitionist  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:47:19am

re: #341 Killgore Trout

I've also seen claims that the frequency of his calls to police has been greatly exaggerated. It wasn't 96 times this year, it was more like 46 since 2004.

Where did you get "since 2004"? Most reports I've seen said since Jan 1, 2011.

366 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:47:23am

re: #347 Killgore Trout

I think he's talking about the presentation. I wasn't comfortable with it either. Playing that clip on a loop with the suggestion that he's saying "coons" can lead people to think they hear something that's not there.

It's the media's fault for "inflaming" racism and "race-baiting." It's not like there are racial aspects inherent in the case - that reflect racial aspects inherent in our society.

All I can say is thank god no one in the media uses out of context material to "inflame" "concern" about OWS.

367 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:48:06am

re: #361 Killgore Trout

I have no idea.

I hope you get that I was being sarcastic?

368 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:48:21am

re: #365 abolitionist

FWIW, here's Rogue's comment on the issue. I have *not* factchecked it.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

369 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:49:12am

re: #362 Sionainn

If Oliver isn't a close friend and hasn't even spoken to him, how can he possibly be the spokesperson for Zimmerman? It's ridiculous!

Wait 'til Nancy Grace hits it in full cry.

370 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:50:45am

re: #345 ggt

Listen, my wedding ring is insured, most things can be replaced. If I lose my purse, I am seriously fucked-up.

You will be on the phone all day convincing people who work in customer relations to help you.

371 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:50:48am

re: #362 Sionainn

If Oliver isn't a close friend and hasn't even spoken to him, how can he possibly be the spokesperson for Zimmerman? It's ridiculous!

The point is that it's not important to the case. Just another fairly pointless controversy to hype the story and increase ratings.

372 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:51:12am

re: #368 'M AFFN FUN

FWIW, here's Rogue's comment on the issue. I have *not* factchecked it.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

He has been playing neighborhood rent-a-watch for 8 years?

How old is Zimmerman?

373 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:51:42am

re: #368 'M AFFN FUN

FWIW, here's Rogue's comment on the issue. I have *not* factchecked it.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Interesting. Thanks for that link.

374 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:52:07am

re: #367 Talking Point Detective

I hope you get that I was being sarcastic?

Heh, no I didn't. It's hard to tell around here sometimes.

375 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:52:53am

re: #371 Killgore Trout

It's important in that Oliver has claimed to have talked to Zimmerman after what happened. If he has not done so then he is a liar out there muddying the waters, a diversion. If he has then he should be interviewed by detectives. He claims to have knowledge about the case others do not but when pressed he refuses to share it.

376 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:52:56am

re: #370 Mostly sane, most of the time.

You will be on the phone all day convincing people who work in customer relations to help you.

Really, I am stranded without my car keys. No phone, no memory for phone numbers--kid is abandoned at school --no money to use a pay phone or call the cops, can't get in my house without a locksmith, can't pay the locksmith as my credit cards are in the purse . . .

You see my dilemma.

377 AK-47%  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:53:29am

re: #367 Talking Point Detective

I hope you get that I was being sarcastic?

this is why we have the sarc tag / or we use

wingnut

378 Sionainn  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:53:34am

re: #371 Killgore Trout

The point is that it's not important to the case. Just another fairly pointless controversy to hype the story and increase ratings.

It's important when it's going out there as "fact," speaking to Zimmerman's "character" when it's plainly obvious that Oliver doesn't know squat about George Zimmerman. He doesn't know if Zimmerman is all broken up over shooting an innocent kid, yet that's what he is claiming.

379 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:53:56am

re: #368 'M AFFN FUN

FWIW, here's Rogue's comment on the issue. I have *not* factchecked it.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Ah,

..and counted 46 calls (45 incidences) over the last 8 years and only 5 of those calls were about a black male. Interestingly, 4 of those calls about black guys happened after a 9/22/2011 Neighborhood watch meeting with the police (which was held in response to a break in in the neighborhood).

380 Lidane  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:53:59am

Well, that's one way to react to all the talk about hoodies:

NRA Concealed Carry Hooded Sweatshirt

381 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:54:41am

re: #371 Killgore Trout

The point is that it's not important to the case. Just another fairly pointless controversy to hype the story and increase ratings.

The case is receiving a lot of attention. IMO, that's probably a good thing in the long run - these issues need to be dealt with as imperfectly as it happens.

Given that the attention is there, and Oliver steps up to the media to vouch for Zimmerman, then the substance and veracity of his comments is entirely "important."

It's interesting to watch what you deem important and what you think unimportant.

382 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:54:53am

re: #376 ggt

...do you have a rock??
Window repair may cost less than a lock smith!!
...I'm not helping ,am I....

383 Kronocide  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:55:13am

re: #326 'M AFFN FUN

And I assure you that the people listed in the previous comment aren't out to defend GZ. We just don't hear it.

I have no doubt about your objectivity as well as Gus and SFZ. We'll just agree to disagree, or disagree about agreeing.

I only listened to the CNN recording, for what that's worth.

So now that we got that cleared up, I'm off to commit capitalism.

384 Simply Sarah  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:55:48am

re: #376 ggt

Really, I am stranded without my car keys. No phone, no memory for phone numbers--kid is abandoned at school --no money to use a pay phone or call the cops, can't get in my house without a locksmith, can't pay the locksmith as my credit cards are in the purse . . .

You see my dilemma.

Even if you had money for a pay phone, good luck actually finding one nearby.

385 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:56:00am

re: #364 ggt

full video of school bus chase.

Why steal a bus???
Hope it was worth the bean bag rounds and the live shots.
Idiot.

386 Sionainn  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:56:34am

I've got to go type a stat report...BBIAB.

387 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:56:47am

re: #383 Kronocide

Even the CNN audio guy in that segment said that he would not testify in court that it was "coons".

388 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:56:49am

re: #382 reloadingisnotahobby

...do you have a rock??
Window repair may cost less than a lock smith!!
...I'm not helping ,am I...

What you really need is one of those rocks that is hollow and has a spare key in it.

389 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:56:54am

re: #381 Talking Point Detective

The case is receiving a lot of attention. IMO, that's probably a good thing in the long run - these issues need to be dealt with as imperfectly as it happens.

Given that the attention is there, and Oliver steps up to the media to vouch for Zimmerman, then the substance and veracity of his comments is entirely "important."

It's interesting to watch what you deem important and what you think unimportant.

You might be right but the hysteria, hype, misinformation and conspiracy theories are very dangerous. In the long run it might be for the best but I'm not so sure.

390 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:57:31am

re: #385 Varek Raith

It's a Partridge Family thing. /

391 Simply Sarah  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:57:59am

re: #388 Mostly sane, most of the time.

What you really need is one of those rocks that is hollow and has a spare key in it.

Perfect. That way she could smash the window and unlock the door!

392 Kragar  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:58:01am

AFA Spokesperson: Trayvon Martin Controversy Threatens to Break the 'Truce' between Blacks and Whites

Rios: The whole issue over Trayvon Martin is threatening I think the very fiber of this truce that blacks and whites have come to over the last fifty years. I think that tensions are getting worse, people are stoking them, and this too is an issue, a spiritual matter.

Bauer: The fact that Jesse Jackson and Sharpton would immediately attempt to exploit this and make it a racial issue, and that even the President in his public comments would stir that pot, I find that deeply disturbing and I think it’s dangerous.

Truce? What fucking planet do these bastards live on?

393 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:58:25am

re: #286 Talking Point Detective

At first glance you may be right.
I'm just getting started with case law, and I'm starting with SCOTUS. However I commented before on that case from an article I saw in the Miami herald. I'd like to see if that is a single, rare, or common decision. It appears to me not to be binding moving forward with other cases.

Of course that involved two men with weapons. So it's a bit unlike GZ vs. TM.

I know of another case where a man was convicted of murder after he pursued a suspect, came back and shot a wounded suspect to death.

It may be that some SCOTUS precedent would shpow that judge you cite to be wrong. After I'm done with SCOTUS case law i'm getting all the FL cases via a pal with a nexis subscription.

What might you say to this? EDIT-It's a part of my reading, no conclusions on my part yet.

Brown v. United States 1921 256 U.S. 335 285
Is there a duty to retreat when attacked by a man with a knife [NO]; Believing you’re in a mortal conflict, if you fire a shot in the heat of combat, which in cool reflection later may be seen as unnecessary, may you still be acquitted on grounds of self defense [YES]; Is your right of self defense roughly similar in your home, on your land, and at your work [YES]; Can detached reflection be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife [NO].

394 Lidane  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:58:38am

re: #392 Kragar

AFA Spokesperson: Trayvon Martin Controversy Threatens to Break the 'Truce' between Blacks and Whites

Truce? What fucking planet do these bastards live on?

The one where racism and racial tensions in America magically disappeared when Barack Obama got elected.

395 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:58:57am

re: #381 Talking Point Detective

The case is receiving a lot of attention. IMO, that's probably a good thing in the long run - these issues need to be dealt with as imperfectly as it happens.

Given that the attention is there, and Oliver steps up to the media to vouch for Zimmerman, then the substance and veracity of his comments is entirely "important."

It's interesting to watch what you deem important and what you think unimportant.

I think the most important thing about Oliver is that he is turning out to be an attention whore.

396 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:00:39am

Afternoon lizards!

Did I miss anything?

397 Simply Sarah  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:00:53am

re: #392 Kragar

AFA Spokesperson: Trayvon Martin Controversy Threatens to Break the 'Truce' between Blacks and Whites

Truce? What fucking planet do these bastards live on?

What they really mean is that it threatens to re-expose the dirty little public secret hiding just below the surface that racism is still alive and well in the U.S. Clearly, they think it should remain swept under the rug.

398 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:01:06am

re: #396 NJDhockeyfan

Afternoon lizards!

Did I miss anything?

You need a purse.

399 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:01:06am

re: #389 Killgore Trout

You might be right but the hysteria, hype, misinformation and conspiracy theories are very dangerous. In the long run it might be for the best but I'm not so sure.

Possibly not - but we can think of examples where people talked about the danger of similar situations that we'd look back upon now as seminal events.

Why waste time lamenting reality? I thought that you dabble with Zen philosophy.

The problem for me is when people try to blame the media for simply reflecting underlying reality. Reminds me of when people try to blame rap music for violence among black youth.

400 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:01:18am

re: #363 reloadingisnotahobby

I have fifteen minutes to kill so I thought I'd check in for the first time in
...5 months or so!!
...and I choose y'all!!
Don't ya feel speeecial??lol
Hope all is well with everyone!

Don't be confused by the new names.

But you can still easily find out who’s really behind that display name; just hover your mouse over it for a second or two and their real username will pop up. The real username is also shown in the Profile dialog box, when you click a user’s icon.

401 blueraven  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:01:41am

re: #341 Killgore Trout

I've also seen claims that the frequency of his calls to police has been greatly exaggerated. It wasn't 96 times this year, it was more like 46 since 2004.

I've read it was 46 times in a little over a year...since Jan 2011. I never heard 96 times. This has been widely reported. Don't know where your numbers come from.

402 Simply Sarah  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:01:42am

re: #398 Mostly sane, most of the time.

You need a purse.

I am Pro-Purse! Choose purse!

403 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:02:14am

re: #397 Simply Sarah

What they really mean is that it threatens to re-expose the dirty little public secret hiding just below the surface that racism is still alive and well in the U.S. Clearly, they think it should remain swept under the rug.

We're going to need a bigger rug.

404 jaunte  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:02:24am
405 Gus  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:02:30am

re: #326 'M AFFN FUN

Yes, I - and others here - have listened to the raw recording, to the recording cleaned up by some TV team (CNN?), to the recording cleaned up by goddamnfrank. The results were the same.

And I assure you that the people listed in the previous comment aren't out to defend GZ. We just don't hear it.

We all should remain objective and pragmatic. To pigeon hole others based on this is not the kind of environment that should be tolerated in this place. To causally throw out words like "Rosarch test for racism" is a direct implication that anyone who disagrees with an unconfirmed conclusion is a racist is a simplistic and bigoted presumption. I can't really think of anything else to say other than that kind of blind faith based on an attempt to force other into "group think" is repugnant.

406 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:03:01am

re: #398 Mostly sane, most of the time.

You need a purse.

That would be a manbag wouldn't it?

407 ReamWorks SKG  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:03:10am

"triggering a nationwide crusade on the dead teen’s behalf."

A crusade? Is this really the word you want to use?

(Maybe I have my upcoming trip to Spain on my mind too much!)

408 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:03:21am

re: #405 Gus

+1000

409 Simply Sarah  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:03:23am

re: #403 wrenchwench

We're going to need a bigger rug.

We could solve unemployment for years making one large enough.

410 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:03:28am

re: #399 Talking Point Detective

Possibly not - but we can think of examples where people talked about the danger of similar situations that we'd look back upon now as seminal events.

Why waste time lamenting reality? I thought that you dabble with Zen philosophy.

The problem for me is when people try to blame the media for simply reflecting underlying reality. Reminds me of when people try to blame rap music for violence among black youth.

And as I typed that comment, Kragar links EXACTLY what I was talking about. Trying to blame the racial ramifications of this case on Sharpton or "race-baiters" is nothing other than politically expedient partisan rhetoric.

411 Kragar  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:03:37am

re: #406 NJDhockeyfan

That would be a manbag wouldn't it?

ITS A SATCHEL!

412 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:04:08am

re: #406 NJDhockeyfan

That would be a manbag wouldn't it?

A mansack.

/I'm so running away

413 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:04:15am

re: #395 Darth Vader Gargoyle

I think the most important thing about Oliver is that he is turning out to be an attention whore.

He wants to be on DWTS --you watch!

414 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:04:20am

re: #407 ReamWorks

"triggering a nationwide crusade on the dead teen’s behalf."

A crusade? Is this really the word you want to use?

(Maybe I have my upcoming trip to Spain on my mind too much!)

Inquisition?

/

415 ReamWorks SKG  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:04:54am

re: #404 jaunte

Breaking: Trayvon Martin a normal teenage boy

I think any fact about Trayvon Martin is beside the point. I don't care if he was the worst person on the face of the earth. I don't want self-appointed policemen running around with guns. The only appropriate place for "Stand Your Ground" is within the walls of your own home.

416 Kragar  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:05:04am

re: #414 wrenchwench

Inquisition?

/

BURN HERETICS!!!!
=][=

417 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:05:28am

re: #414 wrenchwench

Inquisition?

/

Just what I expected.

419 Gus  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:06:02am

re: #417 'M AFFN FUN

Just what I expected.

No one expected it.

421 Simply Sarah  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:06:51am

Is there some substance in purses that makes them toxic to those people with higher testosterone or something? It's almost as bad as the aversion most guys have to skirts and dresses. I feel bad that men have to miss out on how comfortable they can be. They aren't missing much by avoiding heels, though.

422 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:06:51am

re: #419 Gus

No one expected it.

I'm no one now? Thank you very much :((

///

423 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:06:56am

re: #400 wrenchwench

Ah...Thanks!
What's with the script window poping everytime I hit the karma...?
Can I trurn off script?/
...You look nice today ...New hair doo...?

424 ReamWorks SKG  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:06:59am

re: #414 wrenchwench

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

"crusade" is just a word I don't use, unless I'm talking about The Crusades. Maybe I'm too PC. I winced when Bush used it, referring to the war on Iraq!

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

425 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:07:08am

re: #414 wrenchwench

Inquisition?

/

Nobody expects a Spanish Inquisition!

426 Tigger2005  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:07:31am

Truce? There was a war?

Well, I guess there was a war in the sense of white folks making war on blacks, especially in the South. These people make it sound like there were two fairly balanced sides engaged in conflict. And if anyone is breaking this "truce" it's them and the entire racist right-wing that's smearing Martin, excusing Zimmerman, and pardoning the police and Florida officials for failing to do their jobs.

re: #392 Kragar

AFA Spokesperson: Trayvon Martin Controversy Threatens to Break the 'Truce' between Blacks and Whites


Truce? What fucking planet do these bastards live on?

427 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:07:52am

re: #286 Talking Point Detective

Here is something substantial from SCOTUS

Wallace v. United States 1896 162 U.S. 466 224
Is it up to the jury to decide whether a homicide is murder, manslaughter or justifiable [YES]; Does a perfect right of self defense require blamelessness in the confrontation and an act of necessity only [YES]; Can you claim self defense if you had intentionally brought about a lethal conflict [NO]; Is it up to the jury to decide whether you armed yourself defensively or otherwise [YES]; Is it murder if you enter a quarrel without felonious or malicious intent, and then, under reasonable belief of imminent mortal danger, you kill the assailant [NO]; Does the fact that you deliberately go and arm yourself, for self defense or other innocent purpose, turn a subsequent shooting necessarily from manslaughter to murder [NO].

I'm finding the root of the lessons I was taught as a person training to defend myself and as an instructor trainee. I needed the principles, now I have had to find their roots.

428 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:08:06am

re: #405 Gus

We all should remain objective and pragmatic. To pigeon hole others based on this is not the kind of environment that should be tolerated in this place. To causally throw out words like "Rosarch test for racism" is a direct implication that anyone who disagrees with an unconfirmed conclusion is a racist is a simplistic and bigoted presumption. I can't really think of anything else to say other than that kind of blind faith based on an attempt to force other into "group think" is repugnant.

What's interesting is that I was about to call it a Rorschach and then thought better of it (thinking of those who aren't racist but don't hear the epithet).

Not to exactly disagree, but I think you may be reading the comment too strongly. That kind of ambiguous evidence is often influenced by bias.. it could be many different types of bias.

429 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:08:14am

re: #421 Simply Sarah

Is there some substance in purses that makes them toxic to those people with higher testosterone or something? It's almost as bad as the aversion most guys have to skirts and dresses. I feel bad that men have to miss out on how comfortable they can be. They aren't missing much by avoiding heels, though.

They think there is a diaphragm hidden in each one--included in the manufacturing process.

430 ReamWorks SKG  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:09:19am

re: #421 Simply Sarah

Lots of hipsters here in Northern California carry "Murses". But I don't think these men have much testosterone to begin with.

[Link: www.ebags.com...] (for example)

431 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:10:37am

re: #430 ReamWorks

Lots of hipsters here in Northern California carry "Murses". But I don't think these men have much testosterone to begin with.

[Link: www.ebags.com...] (for example)

I like this one

432 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:11:08am

Iranian president praises Syrian handling of uprising

REPORTING FROM TEHRAN -- Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadeinejad praised Syria's government for its handling of an uprising against President Bashar Assad, saying Iran would do “all in its power to support this country,” according to state media.

“I am very happy that Syrian officials are managing the situation well,” Ahmadinejad said in remarks broadcast Tuesday. “I hope the situation in Syria improves day after day.”

...More than 10,000 people are believed to have been killed in the conflict in Syria, many of them civilians. The United Nations has condemned the Assad government for widespread human rights abuses. Syrian officials argue they are under attack from armed terrorists and must defend themselves.

Dinnerjacket must be impressed by the number of dead citizens Assad has under his belt.

433 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:11:13am

re: #423 reloadingisnotahobby

Ah...Thanks!
What's with the script window poping everytime I hit the karma...?
Can I trurn off script?/

Did you try reloading?

/

...You look nice today ...New hair doo...?

Oops, that's my Valentine's day avatar, I guess I should change it...

434 iossarian  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:11:17am

re: #430 ReamWorks

Lots of hipsters here in Northern California carry "Murses". But I don't think these men have much testosterone to begin with.

[Link: www.ebags.com...] (for example)

I carry a Fendi purse and I just had sex with the entire Stanford women's volleyball team.

Does this make me an outlier?

435 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:11:38am

re: #433 wrenchwench

Did you try reloading?

/

Oops, that's my Valentine's day avatar, I guess I should change it...

You can reload your karma?

436 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:11:46am

re: #427 Daniel Ballard

Here is something substantial from SCOTUS

Wallace v. United States 1896 162 U.S. 466 224
Is it up to the jury to decide whether a homicide is murder, manslaughter or justifiable [YES]; Does a perfect right of self defense require blamelessness in the confrontation and an act of necessity only [YES]; Can you claim self defense if you had intentionally brought about a lethal conflict [NO]; Is it up to the jury to decide whether you armed yourself defensively or otherwise [YES]; Is it murder if you enter a quarrel without felonious or malicious intent, and then, under reasonable belief of imminent mortal danger, you kill the assailant [NO]; Does the fact that you deliberately go and arm yourself, for self defense or other innocent purpose, turn a subsequent shooting necessarily from manslaughter to murder [NO].

I'm finding the root of the lessons I was taught as a person training to defend myself and as an instructor trainee. I needed the principles, now I have had to find their roots.

That's interesting - and more along the lines of what I've been asking for, although it seems far from conclusive that it codifies an interpretation that Zimmerman can't use SYG by virtue of initially pursuing Martin (as it seemed to me you were saying was a clear reading of written law).

So how does that mix with the determinations of a local State Attorney/police force?

437 Kragar  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:11:50am

re: #430 ReamWorks

Lots of hipsters here in Northern California carry "Murses". But I don't think these men have much testosterone to begin with.

[Link: www.ebags.com...] (for example)

Be a man

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

438 Gus  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:11:57am

re: #428 Talking Point Detective

What's interesting is that I was about to call it a Rorschach and then thought better of it (thinking of those who aren't racist but don't hear the epithet).

Not to exactly disagree, but I think you may be reading the comment too strongly. That kind of ambiguous evidence is often influenced by bias.. it could be many different types of bias.

That bias can work in either direction. It could be concluded as being a form of confirmation bias. I am not listening to "rhetoric" but for speech, the voice, the physics as I hear it. Not in what I expect to hear. And I say this as someone who first thought he heard the "c" version. In any case we must await the conclusion from experts possibly at the FBI. But to imply a negative bias on anyone based on this is an insult.

439 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:12:06am

re: #424 ReamWorks

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

"crusade" is just a word I don't use, unless I'm talking about The Crusades. Maybe I'm too PC. I winced when Bush used it, referring to the war on Iraq!

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Bush's use was certainly a poor choice in the context.

440 iossarian  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:12:28am

re: #439 wrenchwench

Bush's use was certainly a poor choice in the context.

Is that you, Mitt?

441 Simply Sarah  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:12:34am

re: #431 ggt

I like this one

It looks useful. Sadly, we wouldn't be able to carry one of those around, since someone replaced the p with an m. :(

442 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:13:11am

re: #441 Simply Sarah

It looks useful. Sadly, we wouldn't be able to carry one of those around, since someone replaced the p with an m. :(

I don't think it matters.

I just wouldn't tell anyone.

and I'd have to insert my own diaphragm.

443 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:14:11am

re: #440 iossarian

Is that you, Mitt?

OK, he created the context too, didn't he. More poor choices...

444 Gus  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:14:48am

Oops. Messed something up which should read: " I am not listening to 'rhetoric' but for speech, the voice, the physics as I hear it."

445 Shropshire_Slasher  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:15:21am

re: #434 iossarian

Does the Stanford womens volleyball team know it?!

446 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:15:45am

re: #444 Gus

Oops. Messed something up which should read: " I am not listening to 'rhetoric' but for speech, the voice, the physics as I hear it."

If you are in the woods and there is rhetoric, but no one else is there to coorborate, did you really hear it?

447 Simply Sarah  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:15:53am

re: #442 ggt

I don't think it matters.

I just wouldn't tell anyone.

Noooo! You can't do that! Do you know that all murses and manbags are infused with testosterone and the sweat of hard working men? I mean, otherwise they'd just be purses, right?

448 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:16:27am

re: #436 Talking Point Detective

That's interesting - and more along the lines of what I've been asking for, although it seems far from conclusive that it codifies an interpretation that Zimmerman can't use SYG by virtue of initially pursuing Martin (as it seemed to me you were saying was a clear reading of written law).

So how does that mix with the determinations of a local State Attorney/police force?

That's why I'm getting the Florida case law.

449 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:16:32am

re: #447 Simply Sarah

Nooo! You can't do that! Do you know that all murses and manbags are infused with testosterone and the sweat of hard working men? I mean, otherwise they'd just be purses, right?

Oh, I thought it was just the lack of (you know what) during the manufacturing process that made the difference.

450 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:16:46am

I'm now getting man bag ads.

I do think that messenger-style bags are completely masculine.

451 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:17:23am

re: #450 Mostly sane, most of the time.

I'm now getting man bag ads.

I do think that messenger-style bags are completely masculine.

They look like book bags to me.

452 Sionainn  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:17:47am

re: #430 ReamWorks

Lots of hipsters here in Northern California carry "Murses". But I don't think these men have much testosterone to begin with.

[Link: www.ebags.com...] (for example)

I like those much better than the purses for women!

453 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:18:23am

Frankly, the regular ole' backpack seems to be unisex and the most useful.

jeans, gym shoes, hoodies and a back pack.

the uniform of the average human these days.

454 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:18:51am

re: #428 Talking Point Detective

Oh LOL
Look what a simple typo got me from Google

ELF Defense

455 ReamWorks SKG  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:19:09am

Maybe African American teenagers should wear Murses instead of Hoodies so they look less threatening to non-black neighborhood watchmen!

(Trying to merge threads.)

456 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:19:42am

re: #454 Daniel Ballard

Oh LOL
Look what a simple typo got me from Google

ELF Defense

Does SYG apply to elves?

457 Kragar  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:19:51am
458 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:20:04am

re: #450 Mostly sane, most of the time.
Not if your riding a Harley!!
I was going to 'reboot' this damn computer but the last time I did that I
pulled a Hamsting so I can't ....for a while any way...
...play nice....LUNCH!!!

459 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:20:18am

re: #454 Daniel Ballard

Oh LOL
Look what a simple typo got me from Google

ELF Defense

Now I will agree that Zimmerman won't be able to use the ELF defense.

460 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:20:33am

Hmmm.

I'm wondering if the rise of the Murse has anything to do with the rise of the ipad/tablet. You need somewhere secure to put the thing.

If it is, we need a significantly less dippy name than "Murse."

461 Gus  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:20:40am

Or as someone else put it:

Ok, george zimmerman did say "fucking punks" instead of fucking c**ns. Either way, he followed him and killed him. So. Fuck you george.

462 Sionainn  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:20:53am

re: #457 Kragar

Colbert Is Worried About Obama’s Nonexistent War On Guns

"The total lack of evidence is all the evidence I need."

463 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:21:29am

re: #462 Sionainn

"The total lack of evidence is all the evidence I need."

That's exactly what the NRA believes!
Lol.

464 Simply Sarah  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:21:34am

re: #450 Mostly sane, most of the time.

I'm now getting man bag ads.

I do think that messenger-style bags are completely masculine.

See, I'm not entirely sure. I don't think they're that through anything innate, only because they're closer to the kinds of styles men normally have in our culture. And that can change. Sort of like how blue was for girls and pink was for boys up until about 100 years ago.

465 Gus  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:21:58am

B.B.L.

466 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:23:31am

re: #464 Simply Sarah

Any man bag can be VERY masculine by having a firearm logo stiched
on it...easy fix!

467 abolitionist  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:24:42am

re: #460 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Hmmm.

I'm wondering if the rise of the Murse has anything to do with the rise of the ipad/tablet. You need somewhere secure to put the thing.

If it is, we need a significantly less dippy name than "Murse."

I suggest totebag. (assuming it's not trademarked)

468 leftynyc  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 11:17:37am

re: #392 Kragar


How much do either of those clowns know about the "black community"?

469 leftynyc  Wed, Mar 28, 2012 11:23:44am

re: #420 Gus

Blech.

My sentiments exactly - my nephew goes to that school.


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