This Should Help: Armed Neo-Nazis Patrolling Sanford, Ready for Race War

“We are a white civil rights organization”
Wingnuts • Views: 43,597

You know all that rhetoric about “race war” that’s showing up at Breitbart.com and many other right wing sites these days? It’s not just rhetoric. There are some people in Sanford, Florida right now who are taking it very seriously indeed: Armed Neo-Nazis Now Patrolling Sanford, Say They Are ‘Prepared’ for Post-Trayvon Martin Violence.

Click to enlargeNeo-Nazis are currently conducting heavily armed patrols in and around Sanford, Florida and are “prepared” for violence in the case of a race riot. The patrols are to protect “white citizens in the area who are concerned for their safety” in the wake of the Trayvon Martin shooting last month, says Commander Jeff Schoep of the National Socialist Movement. “We are not advocating any type of violence or attacks on anybody, but we are prepared for it,” he says. “We are not the type of white people who are going to be walked all over.” …

Schoep, whose neo-Nazi group is based in Detroit, tells Riptide the patrols are a response to white residents’ fears of a race riot.

A group called the New Black Panther Party recently offered $10,000 for a citizens’ arrest of George Zimmerman, Martin’s shooter. Schoep said the bounty is a sign that “the possibility of further racial violence… is brimming over like a powder keg ready to explode into the streets.”

The patrols are comprised of between 10 and 20 locals and “volunteers” from across the state, including some from Miami, he added. He couldn’t go into specifics on what kind of firepower, exactly, the patrols had with them.

“In Arizona the guys can walk around with assault weapons and that’s totally legal,” Schoep said, referring to the group’s patrols of the US-Mexico border. “What I can tell you is that any patrols that we are doing now in Florida are totally within the law.”

Asked if the patrols wouldn’t just make things worse — spark a race riot, for instance — Schoep insisted they were simply a “show of solidarity with the white community down there” and “wouldn’t intimidate anybody.”

“Whenever there is one of these racially charged events, Al Sharpton goes wherever blacks need him,” Schoep said. “We do similar things. We are a white civil rights organization.”

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278 comments
1 iossarian  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:11:51pm

Straight white christian males.

Fighting imaginary discrimination since 1775.

2 Tigger2005  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:12:43pm

What the hell right do people from one state have to drive or walk around a city in another state with concealed weapons?

3 Kragar  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:12:55pm

Armed vigilantes roaming the streets to keep the peace who take pride in their racist discrimination against minorities?

I can see no negative repercussions from this course of action.
/

How long before one of them feels the need to stand their ground?

4 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:13:18pm

Or maybe it's just that with the SYG law, they think it's open season in Sanford.

5 Tigger2005  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:14:01pm

I certainly hope the Sanford police have the balls to show them to the state line. As if they need another shooting at this time.

6 jaunte  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:14:23pm

NSM 88, a group that comes to town numerically pre-Godwined.

7 makeitstop  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:14:58pm

re: #2 Tigger2005

What the hell right do people from one state have to drive or walk around a city in another state with concealed weapons?

It sounds as though they've got neo-Nazis from Florida working with them.

My guess is the natives are licensed to carry. They're just there for cheap publicity or something.

8 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:15:05pm

re: #2 Tigger2005

in florida they can carry weapons too.

9 jaunte  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:15:48pm

Looking for a shootout, under the cover of SYG.

10 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:15:51pm

re: #2 Tigger2005

What the hell right do people from one state have to drive or walk around a city in another state with concealed weapons?

They probably have reciprocity agreements.

11 Tigger2005  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:17:22pm

re: #10 Obdicut

They probably have reciprocity agreements.

They really want their Wild Wild West back don't they? Maybe I should move down there and open up a saloon and bordello.

12 ArchangelMichael  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:18:22pm

I hate Illinois Florida Nazis.

13 alinuxguru  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:19:05pm

Thank you NBC for help lighting this powder keg.

14 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:19:23pm
15 Lidane  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:19:31pm

re: #12 ArchangelMichael

I hate Nazis.

FTFY.

Doesn't matter where they're from -- Nazis are scum.

16 jaunte  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:19:45pm

Illinois FOID Screenings Ineffective, Report Claims: Mentally Unfit People Obtaining Guns

A recent audit of Firearm Owner Identification card applications in Illinois found that huge communication gaps have allowed individuals deemed mentally unfit to obtain FOID cards and deadly weapons.

17 ArchangelMichael  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:20:22pm

re: #15 Lidane

FTFY.

Doesn't matter where they're from -- Nazis are scum.

Of course but that sort of kills the nod to The Blues Brothers.

18 Gus  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:21:25pm

re: #13 alinuxguru

Huh?

19 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:21:54pm

Neo-Nazis arriving in Sanford to offer protection from evil liberal "race-baiting."

Makes perfect sense.*

*in the mind of a frightwinger.

20 Lidane  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:23:40pm

Just wait until the RNC in Tampa -- they're allowing guns in the protest zones.

21 nines09  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:24:20pm

National Socialist Movement? But I thought Obama was a socialist and that was bad? I'm confoozed. /

22 Gus  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:24:28pm

re: #20 Lidane

Just wait until the RNC in Tampa -- they're allowing guns in the protest zones.

NBC's fault.

//

23 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:25:20pm

re: #13 alinuxguru

What did they do wrong?

Oh right, they are covering a story bout how the US still has racial problems.

24 Lidane  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:25:50pm

re: #21 Krathing Daeng

National Socialist Movement? But I thought Obama was a socialist and that was bad? I'm confoozed. /

Black Muslim Kenyan Socialist = bad

White Christian National Socialist = A-OK

You know, because wingnuts have such iron-clad logic and all.

25 jaunte  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:26:35pm

Live falcon cam: Peregrine Falcon feeding her nestlings
[Link: www2.ucsc.edu...]
takes a few seconds to load

26 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:27:34pm

This is all so depressing ..... how about a joke ...

2 guys are in a bar ...
Guy #1 to Guy #2 ... "I slept with your mother last night."

Guy #2 to Guy #1 ... "C'mon Dad .... let's get you home"

Have a good holiday everyone .... regardless of which one you are celebrating

27 nines09  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:27:45pm

re: #24 Lidane

Black Muslim Kenyan Socialist = bad

White Christian National Socialist = A-OK

You know, because wingnuts have such iron-clad logic and all.

Perfect logic. Perfectly evil.

28 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:28:15pm

re: #24 Lidane

Not in relation to your post, but could we have a limit on the number of Nic changes a day? It gets confusing keeping track who is who.

Also, could have the editing time limit go up from 5 to 10 minutes? It often takes me 5 minutes to realize I screwed up grammatically or spelling wise.

29 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:28:46pm

re: #13 alinuxguru

Thank you NBC for help lighting this powder keg.

???

Do you mean because NBC played that edited tape (if I'm not mistaken, once)?

Leaving aside all the other ways that this case just exposes existing racial tensions in this country, actually, I'd say that the rightwing reaction (conspiracy-mongering) to that tape has done far more to help light the powder keg than what NBC did.

30 Kragar  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:29:16pm

re: #24 Lidane

Black Muslim Kenyan Socialist = bad

White Christian National Socialist = A-OK

You know, because wingnuts have such iron-clad logic and all.

Its is well known that the genetic code for evil is found in melanin.
/

31 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:29:41pm
Commander Jeff Schoep of the National Socialist Movement

They're liberals!!!1 //

32 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:30:30pm

re: #26 _RememberTonyC

This is all so depressing ... how about a joke ...

2 guys are in a bar ...
Guy #1 to Guy #2 ... "I slept with your mother last night."

Guy #2 to Guy #1 ... "C'mon Dad ... let's get you home"

Have a good holiday everyone ... regardless of which one you are celebrating

Joakim Noah did well last night eh?

33 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:30:46pm

re: #13 alinuxguru

Thank you NBC for help lighting this powder keg.

NBC? What does NBC have to do with anything, dude?

34 Gus  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:30:46pm

re: #31 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

They're liberals!!!1 //

Jonah Goldberg has arrived on the scene.

//

35 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:31:17pm

re: #13 alinuxguru

Thank you NBC for help lighting this powder keg.

I guarantee to you that neo-Nazis are not inspired by anything NBC does.

36 nines09  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:31:50pm

re: #26 _RememberTonyC

An old mans crazy friends throw a surprise 75th birthday party for the old rascal. They get a hooker to walk in with a string bikini on and announce "Happy Birthday Sam! I'm here to give you SUPER SEX!" Sam looks at her, blinks twice and says...."What kind of soup?"

37 _RememberTonyC  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:32:02pm

re: #32 Hoodies for Justice. T

Joakim Noah did well last night eh?

I wish he were on my team ..... he has that pouty face and whiny demeanor, but he can BALL!

38 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:32:08pm
The National Socialist Movement (aka NSM88) is the largest National Socialist Party operating in the United States of America today. We are the political party for every patriotic American.
39 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:33:08pm

re: #37 _RememberTonyC

I wish he were on my team ... he has that pouty face and whiny demeanor, but he can BALL!

As I well know. He has always had major passion in the game.

40 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:33:59pm

re: #38 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

They side with an ideology that we fought against 70 years ago. They are traitors in every sense of the word.

If we were like Europe, they would be tried for sedition.

41 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:34:07pm
The NSM's core beliefs include: defending the rights of white people everywhere, preservation of our European culture and heritage, strengthening family values, economic self-sufficiency, and reform of illegal immigration policies, immediate withdrawal of our national military from an illegal Middle Eastern occupation and promotion of white separation.

So, mainstream Republicanism, with some veering off into Ron Paul Republicanism. //

42 ReamWorks SKG  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:35:00pm

Walter Olsen (overlawyered.com) on Stand Your Ground and "Duty to Retreat"

[Link: overlawyered.com...]

43 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:36:18pm

re: #42 ReamWorks

From Cato Institute clown. No need to listen to him.

44 blueraven  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:37:34pm

re: #13 alinuxguru

Thank you NBC for help lighting this powder keg.

Oh please! What NBC did is inexcusable, but do you really think that is the reason for the NN presence?

They are as bad as the NBP party and are looking for attention and a fight.

But what brought this all about is the shameful way this whole case was handled from the beginning.

45 ReamWorks SKG  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:37:53pm

re: #43 ProGunLiberal

While I don't generally agree with him, I disagree with you that there's "no need to listen to him." His arguments will be more relevant to any future criminal or civil prosecution than "popular opinion", even if we disagree with him.

46 Kragar  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:39:04pm

I've decided I shall call the eyedrops I got prescribed by their true name of "LIQUID FUCKING FIRE!"

47 Lidane  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:40:33pm

As long as we're talking about RWNJ race fail, Derbyshire is apparently falling all over himself to prove his racist bonafides:

National Review Writer Pens Racist Screed: ‘Avoid Concentrations Of Blacks,’ ‘Stay Out Of’ Their Neighborhoods

48 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:41:04pm

re: #38 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

The National Socialist Movement (aka NSM88) is the largest National Socialist Party operating in the United States of America today. We are the political party for every patriotic American.

By sporting the symbol and following the ideology of one of America's greatest foreign enemies? Ur doin it rong.

And... Fuck Off!!!!

49 Patricia Kayden  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:41:41pm

I could give a d**n about White racists. I want to see Zimmerman arrested and charged and in front of a jury. This should have already been done. If he gets away with killing Trayvon, it will be open season on Black men -- not only in Florida but everywhere else in the US.

50 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:43:39pm

Wow. Is there anyone on the whole Internet dumber than Jim Hoft? I think not. Liberal Media FAIL: Only 32% of Non-Blacks Say Zimmerman Is Guilty | the Gateway Pundit

Nice work, Obama. Nice work, race hustlers.
Only 32% of non-blacks believe George Zimmerman is guilty.

Missing the point doesn't even begin to describe this one.

51 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:44:27pm

OK, looking at their 25 theses, they certainly have "left-wing" components in their ideology, they're not small-govt libertarians.

52 Kragar  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:44:53pm

re: #48 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks

By sporting the symbol and following the ideology of one of America's greatest foreign enemies? Ur doin it rong.

And... Fuck Off!!!

Its just like those guys who love Jesus so much love using 666 and pentagrams as symbols.

53 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:45:14pm

re: #50 Charles Johnson

Man, that's depressing. Hopefully that's mostly people who don't really know the facts of the case and have been deluded by the massive hit taken out on Trayvon's reputation.

54 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:45:58pm

New Rule: If you think you're too angry to post, you probably are.

Catch you good Lizards later.

55 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:46:35pm

re: #50 Charles Johnson

Wow. Is there anyone on the whole Internet dumber than Jim Hoft? I think not. Liberal Media FAIL: Only 32% of Non-Blacks Say Zimmerman Is Guilty | the Gateway Pundit

Missing the point doesn't even begin to describe this one.

Don't have the faintest idea on his guilt, but I'd really like a jury's opinion.

56 b_sharp  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:46:43pm

re: #50 Charles Johnson

Wow. Is there anyone on the whole Internet dumber than Jim Hoft? I think not. Liberal Media FAIL: Only 32% of Non-Blacks Say Zimmerman Is Guilty | the Gateway Pundit

Missing the point doesn't even begin to describe this one.

To them guilt has no objective reality.

57 Kragar  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:47:30pm

re: #55 Decatur Deb

Don't have the faintest idea on his guilt, but I'd really like a jury's opinion.

Next to impossible thanks to the stellar investigative work of the Sanford PD.

58 Gus  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:47:59pm

re: #53 Obdicut

Man, that's depressing. Hopefully that's mostly people who don't really know the facts of the case and have been deluded by the massive hit taken out on Trayvon's reputation.

Yeah. But if I saw another poll on Gallup showing how the majority of Americans also believe in creationism... well... I'm still shrugging.

59 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:48:23pm

re: #50 Charles Johnson

Nonsensical poll. E.g. I have no belief that Zimmerman is guilty of murder. It's possible, but manslaughter is more probable in my subjective estimation. In this poll I would, then, not be a part of those who believe he is "guilty" due to poor phrasing.

60 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:48:53pm

re: #57 Kragar

Next to impossible thanks to the stellar investigative work of the Sanford PD.

Per the subject of this thread, the Sanford PD is reaping the reward for it. Governor Skeletor better have the State Police on speed-dial.

61 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:49:23pm

re: #53 Obdicut

I don't think it's depressing many people aren't ready to call him a murderer.

62 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:50:08pm

re: #61 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

I don't think it's depressing many people aren't ready to call him a murderer.

I don't think they're parsing it as closely as you are, though.

63 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:51:15pm

re: #62 Obdicut

Yes, they may be saying "let the court decide". But without a follow-up question we don't know, do we?

64 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:52:15pm

New flicker stream from Pete Souza.

Like this one

65 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:53:46pm

The better indicator would be: should GZ be tried or not.

66 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:55:00pm

One more thing...

My grandparents and their generation did not sacrifice their lives, risk life and limb, live on rationed food, clothing, gas, rubber, etc., go without both luxuries and necessities, just so you fuckwits could prance around in the uniforms of our greatest foreign enemy in modern history. FUCK YOU, YOU GAWT-DAMNED FUCKING NAZIS!!!!

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go for a walk before I start eating my keyboard.

67 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:57:05pm

Wow. That Gallup poll story is provoking an amazing flood of open racism on many right wing blogs. It's getting incredibly bad out there.

68 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 1:59:08pm

re: #47 Lidane

As long as we're talking about RWNJ race fail, Derbyshire is apparently falling all over himself to prove his racist bonafides:

National Review Writer Pens Racist Screed: ‘Avoid Concentrations Of Blacks,’ ‘Stay Out Of’ Their Neighborhoods

Amazing how fear-driven his list is. He's only fit now for life in a gated community in some isolated mountain state.

69 blueraven  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:00:12pm

re: #59 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

Nonsensical poll. E.g. I have no belief that Zimmerman is guilty of murder. It's possible, but manslaughter is more probable in my subjective estimation. In this poll I would, then, not be a part of those who believe he is "guilty" due to poor phrasing.

Exactly. A better question would have been

Do you think Zimmerman should have been arrested the night of the shooting?

70 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:00:48pm

Meanwhile, in Mali...

On 3 April, armed groups looted 2,354 tons of food from United Nations' World Food Programme's warehouses in Kidal, Gao and Timbuktu, causing the WFP to suspend its operations in northern Mali. Other targets of looting included hospitals, hotels, government offices, Oxfam offices and the offices and warehouses of other unnamed aid groups. The WFP also stated that 200,000 had so far fled the fighting, predicting that the number would rise. Ansar Dine were reported to have intervened against looters. The CRNDR's spokesman Amadou Konare claimed that "women and girls have been kidnapped and raped by the new occupants who are laying down their own law." On 6 April, Amnesty International warned that Mali was "on the brink of a major humanitarian disaster".

Institut Fondamental d'Afrique Noirse head Hamady Bocoum said that the violence could threaten Timbuktu's historic artifacts. "Unique manuscripts have been conserved for centuries in Timbuktu, a scholarly city of 333 saints, where practically every household is a heritage site, a library. I think there are serious risks to those manuscripts. [They could be sold or destroyed by the] new arrivals. These manuscripts have survived through the ages thanks to a secular order, in an area of trade where all the region's peoples intersect. With the arrival of the Islamists, that secular order is broken, that culture is in danger." UNESCO Director-General Irina Bokova also added that "Timbuktu's outstanding earthen architectural wonders that are the great mosques of Djingareyber, Sankore and Sidi Yahia must be safeguarded. [Timbuktu is] essential to the preservation of the identity of the people of Mali and of our universal heritage." The BBC also mentioned 16 other cemeteries as listed for preservation. A private library owner in the city also said that he was afraid of the uncertainty over his collection of manuscripts.

Ansar Dine were also reported to have ransacked bars and establishments that served alcohol, while banning western music from being broadcast. Most hotels in the city were empty or closed, with the tourism industry in the doldrums. Similar reports of changing music on the radio to prayers chants was reported from Kidal, while in Gao, shops and churches were ransacked, while Ansar Dine were also reported to have put the head of a dead soldier on a spike at a military base they briefly held before the MNLA took it over.

One of AQIM's senior figures, Mokhtar Belmokhtar, was reportedly spotted with Ansar Dine in Timbuktu where the Islamists threatened to behead young looters, while the MNLA's leader, Mohamed Ag Najem had set his base at Timbuktu's airport. One MNLA commander in Gao said that Ansar Dine came after the fight to try to benefit from the disorder and confusion but that the two groups did not cooperate.

So, it seems the Tuaregs in Mali are in an alliance with Al-Qaeda, this is bad, really bad. because of the Algerian failure to deal with radicals in the past 20 years, the entirety of North Africa is suffering.

The Washington Post is taking an interesting stand.

The Editorial Board of The Washington Post has called for NATO military intervention against the Tuareg.

Considering they are aligned with Al-Qaeda, I see a rational reasoning here. This is really bad. I think I saw the the ECOWAS nations were planning on to invade Mali and deal with both the Coup and the Tuaregs.

71 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:01:21pm

re: #50 Charles Johnson

OK, I looked it up. It was actually the news item that spun it as "guilty of murder". The actual Gallup poll says only "a crime":

[Link: www.gallup.com...]

However, only 7% of whites say he is definitely not guilty of a crime. Most whites are not convinced either way.

72 Gus  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:04:38pm

re: #71 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

OK, I looked it up. It was actually the news item that spun it as "guilty of murder". The actual Gallup poll says only "a crime":

[Link: www.gallup.com...]

However, only 7% of whites say he is definitely not guilty of a crime. Most whites are not convinced either way.

For results based on the total sample of 242 blacks, one can say with 95% confidence that the maximum margin of sampling error is ±8 percentage points.

For results based on the total sample of 2,764 nonblacks, one can say with 95% confidence that the maximum margin of sampling error is ±2 percentage points.

73 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:05:09pm

re: #71 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

Another factor to consider is that only 19% of nonblacks (as they're specified in the poll) follow the TM news very closely, while 40% somewhat closely. Among the blacks, however, 52% follow very closely, while 28% somewhat closely.

74 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:06:49pm

re: #73 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

Those who do not follow very closely are probably more likely to be noncommittal.

75 Gus  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:06:55pm

Wingnut conclusion from the poll seems to be either a) another OJ or b) race war!

[Link: twitter.com...]

Not very conclusive. Most of it seems to be coming from that chickenhawk junkie Pat Dollard.

76 blueraven  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:07:52pm

re: #71 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

OK, I looked it up. It was actually the news item that spun it as "guilty of murder". The actuall Gallup poll says only "a crime":

[Link: www.gallup.com...]

However, only 7% of whites say he is definitely not guilty of a crime. Most whites are not convinced either way.

Still, it is asking for a verdict which most people would be reluctant to render. In this country, everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty. It is a stupid poll question and Gallup should know better.

77 alinuxguru  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:10:19pm

re: #18 Gus

NBC' initial inaccurate reporting single-handedly made this issue about race instead of one lone bully with an inferiority complex and too much time on his hands. It's been downhill ever since.

78 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:10:42pm

re: #77 alinuxguru

NBC' initial inaccurate reporting single-handedly made this issue about race instead of one lone bully with an inferiority complex and too much time on his hands. It's been downhill ever since.

That's nonsense.

79 Tigger2005  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:11:38pm

re: #67 Charles Johnson

Wow. That Gallup poll story is provoking an amazing flood of open racism on many right wing blogs. It's getting incredibly bad out there.

I was at a Golden Corral for lunch. About a third of the folks there were black. There was a white guy at the next table babysitting several children. One was black and one was Asian. Across the aisle, a Muslim family, the mother and older girls in headscarves, ate peacefully, un-harassed by any of the working class white people. Nobody was fighting or shooting each other. This was in a suburb of Kansas City, Missouri.

Yeah, it's bad online, but that is concentrated crazy. It doesn't represent the "real" real America, not yet. Most people respect their neighbors and just want to live peacefully with each other.

80 blueraven  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:12:05pm

re: #77 alinuxguru

NBC' initial inaccurate reporting single-handedly made this issue about race instead of one lone bully with an inferiority complex and too much time on his hands. It's been downhill ever since.

Where have you been for the last month?

81 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:12:19pm

re: #77 alinuxguru

NBC' initial inaccurate reporting single-handedly made this issue about race instead of one lone bully with an inferiority complex and too much time on his hands. It's been downhill ever since.

Bullshit. Were you living under a rock all this time? We've been discussing this case for weeks here, and personally, I only learned about NBC's forgery after it was exposed (late in the game) - I'm sure this is true for many here. NBC's deception is a non-issue in the big picture.

82 Sinistershade  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:13:05pm

re: #79 Tigger2005

America's love of eating obscene amounts of food knows no color. //

83 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:13:56pm

re: #77 alinuxguru

NBC' initial inaccurate reporting single-handedly made this issue about race instead of one lone bully with an inferiority complex and too much time on his hands. It's been downhill ever since.

You started following this case WAY late if you think NBC has anything to do with it.

84 b_sharp  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:14:59pm

re: #59 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

Nonsensical poll. E.g. I have no belief that Zimmerman is guilty of murder. It's possible, but manslaughter is more probable in my subjective estimation. In this poll I would, then, not be a part of those who believe he is "guilty" due to poor phrasing.

Poor phrasing, or push poll style intentional phrasing?

85 jaunte  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:15:08pm

re: #77 alinuxguru

Race came into it when the shooter of an unarmed black teenager wasn't arrested the night of the shooting.

A lot of people thought that probably wouldn't have happened the same way if the shooter had also been black, or if the dead teen had been white.

86 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:15:26pm

re: #84 No Monkey Man (Born With a Banana in my Hand)

Poor phrasing, or push poll style intentional phrasing?

Nah, it turned out to be pretty OK.

87 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:16:19pm

re: #83 Hoodies for Justice. T

LOL. Yeah i was thinking that myself, "didn't the NBC thing happen later on?"
I don't know where guru is getting this from.

88 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:17:21pm

re: #77 alinuxguru

NBC' initial inaccurate reporting single-handedly made this issue about race instead of one lone bully with an inferiority complex and too much time on his hands. It's been downhill ever since.

The sad part of that post is that you're serious. How can people let partisanship so completely distort their reasoning process?

89 blueraven  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:19:08pm

re: #84 No Monkey Man (Born With a Banana in my Hand)

Poor phrasing, or push poll style intentional phrasing?

Also bad internals as Gus posted above

For results based on the total sample of 242 blacks, one can say with 95% confidence that the maximum margin of sampling error is ±8 percentage points.

For results based on the total sample of 2,764 nonblacks, one can say with 95% confidence that the maximum margin of sampling error is ±2 percentage points.

90 Tigger2005  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:19:48pm

re: #77 alinuxguru

NBC' initial inaccurate reporting single-handedly made this issue about race instead of one lone bully with an inferiority complex and too much time on his hands. It's been downhill ever since.

So the fact that said "lone bully with an inferiority complex" was not charged with anything, and that Trayvon's body lay in the morgue labeled as John Doe for three days because the cops couldn't be bothered to find out who he was, had nothing to do with race?

91 alinuxguru  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:20:08pm

re: #78 Charles Johnson

Charles, you may not be familiar with just how often this plays out in Florida.

Last year a David James, a white man, took his 8 year old daughter to the neighborhood park in Valrico FL. The neighborhood bully, a black man, was trying to chase away skateboarders from the park. When David James attempted to help the kids, he was shot and killed in front of his daughter. The neighborhood bully is still walking free.

Is that too about race? No. That is about the neighborhood bully taking advantage of Stand Your Ground laws.

92 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:20:57pm

re: #89 blueraven

Why bad? The error bars don't explain the gap.

93 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:21:01pm

re: #79 Tigger2005

Yeah, it's bad online, but that is concentrated crazy. It doesn't represent the "real" real America, not yet. Most people respect their neighbors and just want to live peacefully with each other.

Well, all the people online live somewhere. Rest assured, at least some of your neighbors are insane hateful racist conspiracy theorists. Even serial killers tend to know how to behave socially without broadcasting the fact that after leaving the Golden Corral they're going back home to their freezer full of dead hookers in various stages of disassembly.

94 blueraven  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:21:39pm

re: #91 alinuxguru

Charles, you may not be familiar with just how often this plays out in Florida.

Last year a David James, a white man, took his 8 year old daughter to the neighborhood park in Valrico FL. The neighborhood bully, a black man, was trying to chase away skateboarders from the park. When David James attempted to help the kids, he was shot and killed in front of his daughter. The neighborhood bully is still walking free.

Is that too about race? No. That is about the neighborhood bully taking advantage of Stand Your Ground laws.

He was arrested and is awaiting trial, no?

95 alinuxguru  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:21:43pm

re: #85 jaunte
A lot of people thought that probably wouldn't have happened the same way if the shooter had also been black, or if the dead teen had been white.

Those people would be wrong.

[Link: www.tampabay.com...]

96 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:22:22pm

re: #91 alinuxguru

Charles, you may not be familiar with just how often this plays out in Florida.

Last year a David James, a white man, took his 8 year old daughter to the neighborhood park in Valrico FL. The neighborhood bully, a black man, was trying to chase away skateboarders from the park. When David James attempted to help the kids, he was shot and killed in front of his daughter. The neighborhood bully is still walking free.

Is that too about race? No. That is about the neighborhood bully taking advantage of Stand Your Ground laws.

You're dodging the point. It still has nothing to do with NBC.

97 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:22:36pm

re: #87 The Round Heeled Savage Cannibal Ghoul

LOL. Yeah i was thinking that myself, "didn't the NBC thing happen later on?"
I don't know where guru is getting this from.

Rush, redstate, malkin? Whoever is pushing the reverse guilt meme.

98 alinuxguru  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:22:42pm

re: #94 blueraven

He was arrested and is awaiting trial, no?

No.

99 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:23:50pm

re: #91 alinuxguru

Argumentum anecdotum. Or something.

100 Lidane  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:24:12pm

re: #91 alinuxguru

You're full of shit. The shooter in that case was not only arrested and charged with a crime, but he's on trial:

[Link: www.npr.org...]

Zimmerman, OTOH, actually IS walking around free. No charges, nothing.

101 jaunte  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:24:17pm

re: #95 alinuxguru

Stand Your Ground is bad law, and needs to be overturned.

102 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:24:17pm

And here we go.

103 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:24:55pm

re: #91 alinuxguru

Charles, you may not be familiar with just how often this plays out in Florida.

Last year a David James, a white man, took his 8 year old daughter to the neighborhood park in Valrico FL. The neighborhood bully, a black man, was trying to chase away skateboarders from the park. When David James attempted to help the kids, he was shot and killed in front of his daughter. The neighborhood bully is still walking free.

Is that too about race? No. That is about the neighborhood bully taking advantage of Stand Your Ground laws.

How many people do you think watched the NBC tape? What % of that miniscule % of people do you think had their opinion significantly affected one way or the other as the result of watching that tape?

Do you actually not realize how few people would meet those criteria?

104 Lidane  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:25:23pm

re: #96 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

You're dodging the point.

No, they're just being an ignorant troll.

105 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:26:55pm

re: #95 alinuxguru

A lot of people thought that probably wouldn't have happened the same way if the shooter had also been black, or if the dead teen had been white.

Those people would be wrong.

[Link: www.tampabay.com...]

Why are you linking to an article from September 2010?

Oh, right. Because in the real world, the shooter Trevor Dooley is currently on trial for manslaughter.

106 Tigger2005  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:27:01pm

re: #98 alinuxguru

No.

From the article, the police are taking this seriously and diligently investigating. They are investigating far more thoroughly than they investigated the Martin shooting. Only after public and federal pressure was brought to bear did they start getting serious. Now a month later it may be too late to get the evidence needed.

107 jaunte  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:27:14pm

A trial, imagine that.

108 Gus  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:27:57pm

re: #91 alinuxguru

Charles, you may not be familiar with just how often this plays out in Florida.

Last year a David James, a white man, took his 8 year old daughter to the neighborhood park in Valrico FL. The neighborhood bully, a black man, was trying to chase away skateboarders from the park. When David James attempted to help the kids, he was shot and killed in front of his daughter. The neighborhood bully is still walking free.

Is that too about race? No. That is about the neighborhood bully taking advantage of Stand Your Ground laws.

Interesting. Here's another account to that story:

Two years ago, Trevor Dooley, a 69-year-old school bus driver, walked across the street from his home in Valrico to stop kids from skateboarding in a neighborhood park. At the time, David James, 41, an Iraq War veteran, was playing basketball with his 8-year-old daughter, Danielle, on a court in the park.

When the older man tried to chase away the skateboarders, the younger man stuck up for the kids.

The verbal argument between the two men turned physical. The daughter of the younger man would later testify how the confrontation ended.

"Did the man try to walk away at any point?" Danielle James was asked.

"Yeah, like my dad got on top of him to keep him down," the girl testified.

And that's when the older man fired a single shot, killing the younger man who had the best of him in their physical confrontation.

Dooley, the older man, is black.

James, the younger man, was white.

And just as in the Martin case, the unarmed person was killed by the armed person who claimed that he feared for his life.

You might want to read it slowly.

109 blueraven  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:28:03pm

re: #106 Tigger2005

From the article, the police are taking this seriously and diligently investigating. They are investigating far more thoroughly than they investigated the Martin shooting. Only after public and federal pressure was brought to bear did they start getting serious. Now a month later it may be too late to get the evidence needed.

He lied. Dooley is on trial.

110 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:28:14pm

re: #98 alinuxguru

No.

FACT CHECK!

111 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:29:17pm

re: #104 Lidane

No, they're just being an ignorant troll.

There's no other explanation. I'm generally very willing to consider alternative viewpoints. But there is no viewpoint here. As Charles said, the notion that NBC is somehow significantly responsible for public opinion on this case is just nonsensical. There is no possible logical explanation. This is just clearly a case of someone who is bound and determined, no matter the facts, to view this case as "the media" inciting racial animosity.

112 Shvaughn  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:29:48pm

re: #91 alinuxguru

Charles, you may not be familiar with just how often this plays out in Florida.

Last year a David James, a white man, took his 8 year old daughter to the neighborhood park in Valrico FL. The neighborhood bully, a black man, was trying to chase away skateboarders from the park. When David James attempted to help the kids, he was shot and killed in front of his daughter. The neighborhood bully is still walking free.

Is that too about race? No. That is about the neighborhood bully taking advantage of Stand Your Ground laws.

Except Trevor Dooley was charged with manslaughter.

113 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:30:52pm

Hey, "alinuxguru", you made a funny claim that the March 27 NBC broadcast singlehandedly made it all about race.

LGF has been following the story at least since March 19 and all this time race has been a factor.

Take your head out of your ass and admit you shot your mouth without informing yourself.

114 Gus  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:31:55pm

re: #95 alinuxguru

A lot of people thought that probably wouldn't have happened the same way if the shooter had also been black, or if the dead teen had been white.

Those people would be wrong.

[Link: www.tampabay.com...]

So I guess what you're saying then is that SYG shouldn't apply if a black man uses it to defend himself from being assaulted by some unarmed "white guy" but George Zimmerman shooting the unarmed Trayvon Martin was OK.

115 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:32:14pm

re: #111 Talking Point Detective

There's no other explanation. I'm generally very willing to consider alternative viewpoints. But there is no viewpoint here. As Charles said, the notion that NBC is somehow significantly responsible for public opinion on this case is just nonsensical. There is no possible logical explanation. This is just clearly a case of someone who is bound and determined, no matter the facts, to view this case as "the media" inciting racial animosity.

And as we see from the wimpy GOP, blaming the media is the easy way out with the ignorant. No explanation, no rebuttal. It works, let's use it for everything moral and rational that we disagree with.

116 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:33:05pm

re: #113 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

Hey, "alinuxguru", you made a funny claim that the March 27 NBC broadcast made it all about race.

LGF has been following the story at least since March 19 and all this time race has been a factor.

Take your head out of your ass and admit you shot your mouth without informing yourself.

It's sad that rightwingers trot out such tired, lame, arguments without shame. This guy actually doesn't know how vapid his argument is. Sad and funny at the same time.

117 b_sharp  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:33:37pm

re: #113 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

Hey, "alinuxguru", you made a funny claim that the March 27 NBC broadcast made it all about race.

LGF has been following the story at least since March 19 and all this time race has been a factor.

Take your head out of your ass and admit you shot your mouth without informing yourself.

Sometimes the head up the ass is a comforting fit.

118 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:33:42pm

re: #116 Talking Point Detective

I don't know if right-winger or just ignorant.

Oh wait///

119 alinuxguru  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:34:20pm

re: #96 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

You're dodging the point. It still has nothing to do with NBC.

Not dodging the point at all. NBC' fallacious reporting has distracted from the very real issue of Stand Your Ground and refocusing it on race.

Dooley, a black man who shot and killed James, a white man, in front of his eight year old daughter remains free to this day.

Both Dooley and Zimmerman find themselves with the good fortune of living in Florida. Zimmerman's familial relationships have more bearing on his walking free than race relations in Sanford. However, even if he was not the spoilt son of a judge, he would still remain free. Just like Dooley.

120 Gus  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:34:24pm

Here. I'll keep it simple.

SYG laws suck.
ALEC is a disgusting organization.
The NRA is a disgusting organization.

Get rid of all three? Problem solved.

121 b_sharp  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:34:43pm

re: #118 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

I don't know if right-winger or just ignorant.

Oh wait///

They aren't mutually exclusive.

122 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:35:00pm

re: #119 alinuxguru

Not dodging the point at all. NBC' fallacious reporting has distracted from the very real issue of Stand Your Ground and refocusing it on race.

It has been about race from the start of the mainstream reporting. You're clueless.

123 jaunte  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:35:22pm

Suspect arrested in Valrico shooting

Oh look, the shooting suspect was arrested!
-One count of Manslaughter
-One count of Improper Exhibition of a firearm
-One count of openly carrying a Firearm

124 erik_t  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:35:56pm

re: #116 Talking Point Detective

It's sad that rightwingers trot out such tired, lame, arguments without shame. This guy actually doesn't know how vapid his argument is. Sad and funny at the same time.

That's not the point. The point is to distract from the fact that Sanford, FL has or will soon have roving bands of armed white supremacists who are bound and determined to protect their fellow white citizens from their perception of an oncoming race war.

Which appears to have largely worked.

125 Shvaughn  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:36:14pm

re: #119 alinuxguru

Dooley, a black man who shot and killed James, a white man, in front of his eight year old daughter remains free to this day.

By "free to this day" you mean "on trial for manslaughter" right?

126 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:37:03pm

What's depressing is that there are bound to be a lot of folks like alinuxguru who, without knowing the first thing about the history of the coverage of this case, will now claim that it was all because of NBC.

127 Achilles Tang  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:37:54pm

That picture in the OP certainly isn't in Sanford. One would think they would at least get a local photo for an article like that. Do they think people don't know what armed men pretending to be military, with dogs, look like?//

128 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:39:07pm

Trayvon is still dead. Zimmerman's lawyer threw out a shaken infant syndrome as defense today. Zim has not even been arrested. Now he's got 2 lawyers.

129 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:39:08pm

re: #118 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

I don't know if right-winger or just ignorant.

Oh wait///

There are some non-ignorant right-wingers, but increasingly dopes like this guy just drown them out.

130 alinuxguru  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:39:23pm

re: #112 Shvaughn

Except Trevor Dooley was charged with manslaughter.

My apologies. I did not follow the case closely after it broke last year. Let's see if Zimmerman can beat Dooley's time walking around free before he was arrested. It was about two weeks before Dooley's name was ever even mentioned in newspaper accounts.

However, the thesis still stands. Both Dooley and Zimmerman were walking free after they shot and killed someone. Neither is about race. Both are about Stand Your Ground.

131 Shvaughn  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:40:53pm

re: #130 alinuxguru

My apologies. I did not follow the case closely after it broke last year. Let's see if Zimmerman can beat Dooley's time walking around free before he was arrested. It was about two weeks before Dooley's name was ever even mentioned in newspaper accounts.

Are you illiterate? Dooley was arrested two days later after public outcry, and is not walking around today, because he is ON TRIAL FOR MANSLAUGHTER.

132 Lidane  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:40:56pm

re: #119 alinuxguru

Dooley, a black man who shot and killed James, a white man, in front of his eight year old daughter remains free to this day.

Why do you keep repeating this lie? Dooley is currently on trial for manslaughter. He was charged with a crime for shooting James.

133 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:41:19pm

re: #126 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

What's depressing is that there are bound to be a lot of folks like alinuxguru who, without knowing the first thing about the history of the coverage of this case, will now claim that it was all because of NBC.

They edited out the in between sentence. They didn't change one damn word he said. Yes, journalistic malpractice. But it's happened before by Fox and fucking mitt Romney.

134 blueraven  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:41:31pm

re: #114 Gus

So I guess what you're saying then is that SYG shouldn't apply if a black man uses it to defend himself from being assaulted by some unarmed "white guy" but George Zimmerman shooting the unarmed Trayvon Martin was OK.

After two days of public outcry...

After two days of public outcry, Hillsborough County deputies arrested a 69-year-old man Tuesday on a manslaughter charge in the fatal shooting of an Air Force veteran on a Valrico basketball court.

[Link: www.tampabay.com...]

Troll is a liar or willfully ignorant.

135 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:41:40pm

re: #130 alinuxguru

My apologies. I did not follow the case closely after it broke last year. Let's see if Zimmerman can beat Dooley's time walking around free before he was arrested. It was about two weeks before Dooley's name was ever even mentioned in newspaper accounts.

However, the thesis still stands. Both Dooley and Zimmerman were walking free after they shot and killed someone. Neither is about race. Both are about Stand Your Ground.

And it still has nothing to do with NBC.

136 Lidane  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:42:12pm

re: #135 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

And it still has nothing to do with NBC.

Of course it doesn't. Trolls don't think that far ahead.

137 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:42:22pm

re: #126 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

What's depressing is that there are bound to be a lot of folks like alinuxguru who, without knowing the first thing about the history of the coverage of this case, will now claim that it was all because of NBC.

True. But NBC's coverage doesn't really change anything with them. They were convinced that "the media" creates racial animosity before NBC's report. It's precisely because they were fully convinced of such that their confirmation bias leads to laughable arguments such as the one guru is sticking to on this thread.

That's not a defense of NBC's stupidity with that tape - but only to say that I don't think that in the end it really amounts to much that's significant.

138 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:42:36pm

re: #130 alinuxguru

Why can't you get any facts straight? The guy got arrested after two days, and there doesn't appear to have been improper evidence collection, as there was with Zimmerman.

So Zimmerman already beat his time walking around free.

139 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:43:18pm

re: #133 Hoodies for Justice. T

They edited out the in between sentence. They didn't change one damn word he said. Yes, journalistic malpractice. But it's happened before by Fox and fucking mitt Romney.

They basically forged the tape and they should fire whoever did it. The point is that they had nothing to do with the racial angle in media coverage.

140 bluecheese  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:43:24pm

re: #134 blueraven

After two days of public outcry...

[Link: www.tampabay.com...]

Troll is a liar or and is willfully ignorant.

fixeted

141 Shvaughn  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:45:35pm

re: #130 alinuxguru

It was about two weeks before Dooley's name was ever even mentioned in newspaper accounts.

This is a lie of course also.

You can't stop lying about this case, can you?

142 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:46:31pm

re: #141 Shvaughn

He's exhibit A of someone who really doesn't give a shit about the facts, because he's got everything figured out already anyway.

143 alinuxguru  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:46:37pm

re: #138 Obdicut

As of a few days ago:

"In Tampa, a judge is considering whether to dismiss a manslaughter charge against 71-year-old Trevor Dooley."

[Link: m.npr.org...]

The one thing these cases have in common is public outrage. The other thing is that neither men will spend any length of time in prison.

144 Gus  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:46:42pm

re: #134 blueraven

After two days of public outcry...

[Link: www.tampabay.com...]

Troll is a liar or willfully ignorant.

Yep. After two days. Guess I left that part out. I don't know what the result of his trial was. He posted bond of $50,000 under a manslaughter charge and is facing a wrongful death lawsuit. More in this PDF from the Brady Foundation on page 6.

Then of course we contrast the victims. One's an "Iraq War veteran and a family man" while the other is a 17 year old "black male who wore a hoodie, Tweeted bad things!, had a tiny tattoo" and whatever else the right wing had been screaming about.

145 Lidane  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:48:22pm

re: #143 alinuxguru

Except that the judge in Dooley's case hasn't ruled on it yet, so for all you know, he could end up in prison anyway.

Also, he was arrested and charged with a crime and is being prosecuted for it in a court of law. That already puts him ahead of Zimmerman.

146 erik_t  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:48:30pm

re: #143 alinuxguru

As of a few days ago:

"In Tampa, a judge is considering whether to dismiss a manslaughter charge against 71-year-old Trevor Dooley."

[Link: m.npr.org...]

The one thing these cases have in common is public outrage. The other thing is that neither men will spend any length of time in prison.

I thought the one thing they had in common was a problem with SYG laws?

Please, at least try to keep your empty-headed talking points straight.

147 Shvaughn  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:49:40pm

re: #143 alinuxguru

The one thing these cases have in common is public outrage. The other thing is that neither men will spend any length of time in prison.

Are they both walking around free right now?

I mean, another thing they have in common is that you're lying about both cases.

148 bluecheese  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:50:08pm

2 Navy pilots eject from jet and send fighter careening into apartments, destroying buildings

Seven people were injured, including both pilots, though all were expected to survive. Authorities were still combing through the wreckage of some 40 apartment units, and they said some residents of the complex still had not been accounted for.

149 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:51:19pm

re: #143 alinuxguru

I know you've been asked before, so the chances of you answering it now seem slim, but...WTF does that other case have to do with NBC?

Again - how many people do you think had their opinion affected by virtue of listening to the NBC tape?

150 alinuxguru  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:52:12pm

re: #147 Shvaughn

Are they both walking around free right now?

I mean, another thing they have in common is that you're lying about both cases.

A lot of vitriol here. Granted, I was going off of memory and did not fact-check this...but not lying with the intent to deceive. So take it down a notch. Nothing really changes. SYG is the issue, not race. Making it about race, like NBC did, only foments groups like the NBP and these folks.

151 CSUH2001  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:52:26pm

Zimmerman needs to be charged with something. It breaks my heart that in 2012 the government is condoning the idea of targeting, stalking, and killing black people. This is not 1812. Black people are free citizens able to go anywhere we are legally allowed to be. We don't have to stop and show random fellow citizens our freedom papers. And it disgusts me that some of the right wing blogs decided to make this a partisan issue. I would think most decent people would be outraged by the idea of an armed adult shooting an unarmed child dead who was just trying to get home. Most decent human beings would be able to empathize with the death of a child who just turned 17 in Feb. There is this dehumanization of black people going on. I always knew it existed but it hurts to see it so proudly displayed.

152 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:53:39pm

re: #150 alinuxguru

A lot of vitriol here. Granted, I was going off of memory and did not fact-check this...but not lying with the intent to deceive. So take it down a notch. Nothing really changes. SYG is the issue, not race. Making it about race, like NBC did, only foments groups like the NBP and these folks.

How many people decided that it is "about race" as the result of listening to the NBC tape?

153 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:54:05pm

re: #150 alinuxguru

A lot of vitriol here. Granted, I was going off of memory and did not fact-check this...but not lying with the intent to deceive. So take it down a notch. Nothing really changes. SYG is the issue, not race. Making it about race, like NBC did, only foments groups like the NBP and these folks.

Again, what does NBC have to do with this case being about race? Are you ignoring what is being written to you?

154 Lidane  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:54:29pm

re: #150 alinuxguru

I was going off of memory and did not fact-check this...

Then you should have checked to make sure you weren't full of shit before you started lying about the case.

155 Shvaughn  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:55:41pm

re: #150 alinuxguru

A lot of vitriol here.

When someone lies to my (virtual) face, yeah, there will be vitriol from me.

You replied to my comment -- my comment included a link to a story about James/Dooley. It was published on the TUESDAY after the SUNDAY in which James was killed.

In your reply, which quoted my link, you claimed that Dooley was not named until two weeks later -- a lie which is immediately disproved BY THE LINK ITSELF.

You're a liar and an idiot, and you're saying stupid, easily disprovable nonsense about your own hand-picked case which you brought up. I hadn't heard of Dooley until TODAY, but in 45 seconds of Googling I already know more than you do.

156 Gus  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:55:51pm

re: #150 alinuxguru

A lot of vitriol here. Granted, I was going off of memory and did not fact-check this...but not lying with the intent to deceive. So take it down a notch. Nothing really changes. SYG is the issue, not race. Making it about race, like NBC did, only foments groups like the NBP and these folks.

Oh crap. Not this shit. What next? Making it about race makes us the racists?

157 blueraven  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:56:01pm

re: #143 alinuxguru

As of a few days ago:

"In Tampa, a judge is considering whether to dismiss a manslaughter charge against 71-year-old Trevor Dooley."

[Link: m.npr.org...]

The one thing these cases have in common is public outrage. The other thing is that neither men will spend any length of time in prison.

Boy, talk about moving the goalpost. First he wasn't arrested (he was), then it was only after two weeks (it was two days), now his attorney is seeking to have the charges dismissed (any good attorney would try this)

Try harder.

158 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:56:18pm

re: #154 Lidane

Then you should have checked to make sure you weren't full of shit before you started lying about the case.

Consider this - he wasn't lying. Why would someone lie about something that is so easily proven to be untrue?

Chances are he's really just willing to throw completely incorrect statements out there without bothering to see if they're correct or well thought out. It's hard to understand, but my guess it's more likely than lying about things that are so obviously false.

159 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:56:40pm

Have we been blessed with a slightly advanced version of Eliza chat bot?

160 Gus  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:57:30pm

All of this is the fault of the liberal media!!!!!

#WAR

161 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:57:30pm

re: #158 Talking Point Detective

I think it kind of counts as lying when you know that what you're saying is completely unverified and you have no actual basis for saying it, though.

162 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:57:43pm

re: #159 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

Have we been blessed with a slightly advanced version of Eliza chat bot?

Why do you think that might be the case?

163 Shvaughn  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:58:12pm

re: #158 Talking Point Detective

Consider this - he wasn't lying. Why would someone lie about something that is so easily proven to be untrue?

Being willingly ignorant and refusing, for example, to click the links that were given to him -- in my book, that's equal to lying, since they're both operating in bad faith and spreading false information.

164 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:58:16pm

re: #162 Talking Point Detective

Why do you think that might be the case?

I dunno. What's your name cutie? 8)))

165 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:59:12pm

re: #161 Obdicut

Poor memory and general obtuseness can explain it.

166 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:59:15pm

re: #150 alinuxguru

No, race is an issue. Because of Pricks like Reagan, we still have a copious number of issues.

Go back under that White Hood of yours.

167 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 2:59:33pm

re: #161 Obdicut

I think it kind of counts as lying when you know that what you're saying is completely unverified and you have no actual basis for saying it, though.

Sure, kind of - but my point is that I doubt that he posted the comments realizing that they were so easily proven false. Either way, though, it speaks (poorly) to his character, approach to accountability, quality of analysis, etc.

168 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:00:14pm

re: #164 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

I dunno. What's your name cutie? 8)))

Why do you want to know my name? Would that make a difference to you?

169 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:00:41pm

re: #165 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

It's almost worse to be so fucking unreliable it can't even be discerned if you were trying to lie.

170 alinuxguru  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:01:04pm

re: #153 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

Again, what does NBC have to do with this case being about race? Are you ignoring what is being written to you?

Because the narrative NBC created at the beginning of the reporting set the tone for all subsequent reporting. NBC stating that Zimmerman spontaneously uttering that he was pursuing a suspicious person who was black poisoned the dialog well. What would the narrative have been if the entire tape was played? Would we be more sympathetic to Zimmerman? No, but we would not be singularly fixated on race rather than Zimmerman's familial relationships and SYG.

SYG equally shields all ethnic groups from prosecution.

171 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:01:33pm

re: #168 Talking Point Detective

Why do you want to know my name? Would that make a difference to you?

Can you elaborate on that?

172 Gus  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:01:55pm

MJ Rosenberg has left Media Matters.

173 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:02:09pm

re: #170 alinuxguru

Because the narrative NBC created at the beginning of the reporting set the tone for all subsequent reporting. NBC stating that Zimmerman spontaneously uttering that he was pursuing a suspicious person who was black poisoned the dialog well. What would the narrative have been if the entire tape was played? Would we be more sympathetic to Zimmerman? No, but we would not be singularly fixated on race rather than Zimmerman's familial relationships and SYG.

SYG equally shields all ethnic groups from prosecution.

It's false from start to end. The reporting on the case began long before March 27. Idiot.

174 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:02:13pm

re: #151 CSUH2001

Zimmerman needs to be charged with something. It breaks my heart that in 2012 the government is condoning the idea of targeting, stalking, and killing black people. This is not 1812. Black people are free citizens able to go anywhere we are legally allowed to be. We don't have to stop and show random fellow citizens our freedom papers. And it disgusts me that some of the right wing blogs decided to make this a partisan issue. I would think most decent people would be outraged by the idea of an armed adult shooting an unarmed child dead who was just trying to get home. Most decent human beings would be able to empathize with the death of a child who just turned 17 in Feb. There is this dehumanization of black people going on. I always knew it existed but it hurts to see it so proudly displayed.

Word

175 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:02:17pm

re: #170 alinuxguru

Because the narrative NBC created at the beginning of the reporting

But that didn't happen at the beginning of reporting.

Come on, you've said about five things quickly shown to be false, and now you're still saying them. You wanna take a minute and cross off the bullshit you've already had shown to be completely fucking false, and then try posting again?

176 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:02:29pm

So apparently John Derbyshire's racist article is published in the webmag Taki, named and run by this guy. My analysis says: dude is a complete dick.

I have to ask--what with the seemed liaison between Libertarianism and racism? I don't see a conceptual overlap, but they seem to travel together.

Coincidentally, this comes on the heels of a friend of mind with Randroid/Paultard inclinations linking on his FB page to an indignant screed on Reason about why Van Jones should be raked over the coals for comments about "so-called libertarians."

177 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:02:58pm

re: #176 The Ghost of a Flea

Yes, Taki is a dick, and an immensely spoiled one.

178 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:03:10pm

re: #172 Gus

Should've happened long ago.

179 Lidane  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:03:29pm

re: #170 alinuxguru

So you're still intent on blaming this on NBC even though the reporting on this case started way before then?

GAZE.

180 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:04:06pm

re: #176 The Ghost of a Flea

I have to ask--what with the seemed liaison between Libertarianism and racism? I don't see a conceptual overlap, but they seem to travel together.

Civil rights laws block a business or persons freedom to discriminate as they see fit, further they prevent a person from being able to hate anyway they want to.

181 Shvaughn  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:04:25pm

re: #170 alinuxguru

Because the narrative NBC created at the beginning of the reporting set the tone for all subsequent reporting.

NBC's reporting is so powerful that it TRAVELED BACK IN TIME BY A MONTH and totally changed everyone's views on this issue.

//

Also, Trevor Dooley is walking around free!

182 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:04:28pm

re: #176 The Ghost of a Flea

Some food for thought.

183 blueraven  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:05:21pm

re: #170 alinuxguru

Because the narrative NBC created at the beginning of the reporting set the tone for all subsequent reporting. NBC stating that Zimmerman spontaneously uttering that he was pursuing a suspicious person who was black poisoned the dialog well. What would the narrative have been if the entire tape was played? Would we be more sympathetic to Zimmerman? No, but we would not be singularly fixated on race rather than Zimmerman's familial relationships and SYG.

SYG equally shields all ethnic groups from prosecution.

Right, as you have so eloquently and factually illustrated with the Dooley/James case.
/

Race was a factor long before that NBC mess.

184 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:05:42pm

re: #163 Shvaughn

Being willingly ignorant and refusing, for example, to click the links that were given to him -- in my book, that's equal to lying, since they're both operating in bad faith and spreading false information.

Just to be clear - I'm not defending such derpitude. I'm trying to understand the psychology. Think of guru as a kind of lab rat. Why would someone "lie" about something so easily proven false?

It's kind of beside the point, but I find the nature of how people stand behind facile reasoning kind of interesting. re: #170 alinuxguru

Because the narrative NBC created at the beginning of the reporting set the tone for all subsequent reporting. NBC stating that Zimmerman spontaneously uttering that he was pursuing a suspicious person who was black poisoned the dialog well. What would the narrative have been if the entire tape was played? Would we be more sympathetic to Zimmerman? No, but we would not be singularly fixated on race rather than Zimmerman's familial relationships and SYG.

SYG equally shields all ethnic groups from prosecution.

I know what happened with the NBC tape.

I read countless blog comments talking about "race-baiting" well before the NBC tape.

Were you reading blogs about this case before the NBC tape was aired? Do you watch Fox News?

185 Lidane  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:05:53pm

re: #176 The Ghost of a Flea

So apparently John Derbyshire's racist article is published in the webmag Taki, named and run by this guy. My analysis says: dude is a complete dick.

Oh, he is. Not only that, but Taki is one of the founders of The American Conservative magazine, along with Crazy Uncle Pat Buchanan.

186 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:06:19pm

re: #184 Talking Point Detective

oops - The last part of that was for you, guru.

187 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:06:29pm

re: #184 Talking Point Detective

Pretty sure he didn't lie. A severe case of stupid.

188 Shvaughn  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:06:43pm

re: #184 Talking Point Detective

Just to be clear - I'm not defending such derpitude. I'm trying to understand the psychology. Think of guru as a kind of lab rat. Why would someone "lie" about something so easily proven false?

I don't know why idiots do stupid things. Maybe you should ask him instead of asking me.

189 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:07:16pm

re: #171 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

Can you elaborate on that?

Can you qualify what you mean by elaborate?

190 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:08:34pm

re: #188 Shvaughn

I don't know why idiots do stupid things. Maybe you should ask him instead of asking me.

Haven't you read his posts? What do you think could possibly be gleaned by asking him a question and expecting a logical, accurate, or meaningful answer?

191 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:08:59pm

re: #180 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

Civil rights laws block a business or persons freedom to discriminate as they see fit, further they prevent a person from being able to hate anyway they want to.

Ah...makes sense. It's a continuation of the way that "state's rights" is used.

Gave up on trying to discuss with friend. He went No True Scotsman and then got stroppy when I said he and his have a moral responsibility to stand up against racists using libertarian arguments. I'm now officially scared that my closest friend in high school is a racist.

192 alinuxguru  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:09:01pm

re: #183 blueraven

Right, as you have so eloquently and factually illustrated with the Dooley/James case.

Dooley is walking. He won't be the first.

193 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:09:09pm

re: #189 Talking Point Detective

Can you qualify what you mean by elaborate?

Don't you believe that I can qualify what I mean by elaborate?

194 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:10:27pm

re: #187 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

Pretty sure he didn't lie. A severe case of stupid.

That's my guess also. He actually didn't know how easily his statements could be proven wrong. Can't think of any other explanation.

The same theory would explain his claims about NBC.

195 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:11:22pm

re: #193 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

Don't you believe that I can qualify what I mean by elaborate?

Would my belief about what you can and can't do change your response?

196 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:11:26pm

re: #185 Lidane

Oh, he is. Not only that, but Taki is one of the founders of The American Conservative magazine, along with Crazy Uncle Pat Buchanan.

Ugh. I used to imagine that racism was deeply buried in our society, but the more I read the more I realize that it's just barely beneath the surface...as evidenced by how little distance you have to travel from mainstream media figures to outright fascists and racists.

197 Gus  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:11:51pm

re: #178 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

Should've happened long ago.

Let's see what NRO does about John Derbyshire and what Alan Dershowitz does about his relationship with Joel Pollak who's running that stink hole known as Breitbart.com.

198 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:11:52pm

re: #195 Talking Point Detective

Would my belief about what you can and can't do change your response?

We were discussing you, not me.

199 alinuxguru  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:13:16pm

re: #194 Talking Point Detective
The same theory would explain his claims about NBC.

The number of posters on this thread who insist on making it about race would explain my claim about NBC.

200 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:13:50pm

re: #198 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

We were discussing you, not me.

At what point in the discussion?

201 blueraven  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:13:55pm

re: #192 alinuxguru

Idiot!

You wrote...

SYG equally shields all ethnic groups from prosecution.

Will he be acquitted? Maybe. But he was p r o s e c u t e d

202 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:14:44pm

re: #199 alinuxguru

The same theory would explain his claims about NBC.

The number of posters on this thread who insist on making it about race would explain my claim about NBC.

Except NBC's stupidity didn't happen until the case-- and the discussion of race-- had been going on for weeks.

Are you just obstinately refusing to learn this for any particular reason?

203 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:15:03pm

re: #200 Talking Point Detective

At what point in the discussion?

What do you think?

204 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:15:36pm

re: #199 alinuxguru

The same theory would explain his claims about NBC.

The number of posters on this thread who insist on making it about race would explain my claim about NBC.

Just to see if I can reconstruct the argument.

You're saying that "posters on this thread" are "making it about race," because of how NBC edited the tape?

Fess up - you're joking at this point, right?

205 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:16:04pm

re: #203 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

What do you think?

Is what I think important?

206 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:16:44pm

re: #205 Talking Point Detective

Is what I think important?

Have you asked anyone else?

207 Lidane  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:16:51pm

re: #199 alinuxguru

Since I can't be arsed to take you seriously anymore, I'll just leave this here:

Image: dadtrophy.gif

208 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:17:31pm

re: #206 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

Have you asked anyone else?

Should I ask someone else?

209 Gus  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:17:45pm

re: #207 Lidane

Since I can't be arsed to take you seriously anymore, I'll just leave this here:

Image: dadtrophy.gif

Yeah, that's the point I reached 15 minutes ago.

210 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:18:16pm

re: #208 Talking Point Detective

Should I ask someone else?

What does that suggest to you?

211 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:18:48pm

re: #210 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

What does that suggest to you?

Would it matter?

212 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:19:46pm

re: #211 Talking Point Detective

Would it matter?

Come, come, elucidate your thoughts.

213 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:19:55pm

re: #204 Talking Point Detective

Just to see if I can reconstruct the argument.

You're saying that "posters on this thread" are "making it about race," because of how NBC edited the tape?

Fess up - you're joking at this point, right?

NBC! The majority of us do not touch the "nightly news" we get it live.

214 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:21:02pm

re: #212 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

Come, come, elucidate your thoughts.

Would that change your approach to this conversation?

215 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:21:32pm

re: #214 Talking Point Detective

Would that change your approach to this conversation?

Why are you concerned about my approach to this conversation?

216 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:21:37pm

re: #151 CSUH2001

Welcome, hatchling.

217 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:21:57pm

re: #199 alinuxguru

It is about race you dipshit!

This guy in Florida you are talking about is being prosecuted after defending himself after being pushed to the ground. Not only that, but the New Black Panthers number no more than 20 at best. The Neo-Nazis are much larger in number. Not only that, but this over-privileged pig Zimmerman apparently has had issues with African Americans for a while.

218 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:22:02pm

Again Grey's Law: Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

If you're in a discussion with someone who repeatedly spews factually incorrect information, that it would have taken him less than a minute on the internet to test drive before using in an argument, you're dealing with an incompetent. If the truth, when brought to the table has no discernible impact and the lies keep being repeated, you're dealing with an incompetent that is also lacking in personal integrity. If you want to keep an open mind at this point and refrain from calling this person a liar, and ascribe their repetition of the same factually incorrect statements to simple stupidity that's certainly your right, but it's far more likely that you're dealing with malicious intent.

Moscow Rules: Once is an accident. Twice is coincidence. Three times is an enemy action.

219 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:22:06pm

re: #215 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

Why are you concerned about my approach to this conversation?

What makes you think I'm concerned?

220 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:23:40pm

re: #219 Talking Point Detective

What makes you think I'm concerned?

Did you come to me because you are concerned?

221 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:23:57pm

re: #218 goddamnedfrank

If you want to keep an open mind at this point and refrain from calling this person a liar, and ascribe their repetition of the same factually incorrect statements to simple stupidity that's certainly your right, but it's far more likely that you're dealing with malicious intent.

Moscow Rules: Once is an accident. Twice is coincidence. Three times is an enemy action.

That's an interesting point - but what malicious intent could be served by making it abundantly evident that you're an idiot with no integrity?

222 Shvaughn  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:24:24pm

re: #221 Talking Point Detective

That's an interesting point - but what malicious intent could be served by making it abundantly evident that you're an idiot with no integrity?

Trolling, maybe?

223 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:24:37pm

re: #221 Talking Point Detective

That's an interesting point - but what malicious intent could be served by making it abundantly evident that you're an idiot with no integrity?

Maybe a troll.

224 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:24:47pm

re: #220 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

Did you come to me because you are concerned?

Why are you concerned about whether I'm concerned?

225 Gus  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:25:09pm

BIAB

226 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:25:13pm

re: #224 Talking Point Detective

Why are you concerned about whether I'm concerned?

Why are you interested in whether or not I am concerned about whether you're concerned?

227 alinuxguru  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:25:42pm

re: #202 Obdicut
Are you just obstinately refusing to learn this for any particular reason?

Based on the "facts", at what point does Zimmerman's actions become about race? Because you want it to be about race?

228 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:26:26pm

re: #223 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

Maybe a troll.

I always have trouble with the label of troll - as distinguished from just someone who disagrees with the blog's consensus.

So in this case is that he's a troll because his only objective is to piss people off? But doesn't he realize that everyone's just laughing at him?

229 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:26:35pm

re: #227 alinuxguru

Are you just obstinately refusing to learn this for any particular reason?

Based on the "facts", at what point does Zimmerman's actions become about race? Because you want it to be about race?

Moron, address the facts. NBC's forgery was aired on March 27. Race became a concern long before that. Why you don't address this point?

230 jaunte  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:26:38pm

re: #202 Obdicut

Except NBC's stupidity didn't happen until the case-- and the discussion of race-- had been going on for weeks.

Martin was shot February 26. NBC's edited tape aired on March 27.
That was after Geraldo Rivera "urged black and Hispanic parents not to let their children go around wearing hoodies."

231 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:27:01pm

re: #226 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

Why are you interested in whether or not I am concerned about whether you're concerned?

Would knowing that answer make a difference to you?

232 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:27:18pm

re: #221 Talking Point Detective

That's an interesting point - but what malicious intent could be served by making it abundantly evident that you're an idiot with no integrity?

Pretty obvious really. Wasting an interlocutor's time and frustrating them as an end to itself, in other words - trolling.

233 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:27:22pm

re: #227 alinuxguru

Are you just obstinately refusing to learn this for any particular reason?

Based on the "facts", at what point does Zimmerman's actions become about race? Because you want it to be about race?

Based, for one, on his call to police warning of a suspicious black second grader.

234 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:27:32pm

re: #228 Talking Point Detective

A troll, in the sense of a stalker or s pissed off old member who just wants to toy with people. Not saying it's most probable, I still think he's just stupid.

235 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:28:09pm

re: #231 Talking Point Detective

Would knowing that answer make a difference to you?

Oh... ?

236 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:28:19pm

re: #218 goddamnedfrank

I think dude is flat out threatened by racial division as he sees it every fucking day, and therefore protects himself with whatever lie works.

Or your hypothesis.

237 jaunte  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:28:47pm

re: #233 wrenchwench

I understand they can be "unbelievably fleet-footed," as one of the GOP candidates put it.

238 alinuxguru  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:28:59pm

re: #233 wrenchwench

Based, for one, on his call to police warning of a suspicious black second grader.

Zimmerman called 911 on whites and blacks. That proves, he is a block captain with too much time on his hand not a racist.

239 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:29:52pm

re: #227 alinuxguru

Zimmerman's actions? Well, profiling a young black man as a criminal is based on race. That's a racism that's very common in the US, but it's still about race.

The reaction of the PD may or may not have been influenced by race, or perhaps influence by Zimmerman's father, or perhaps simple incompetence-- which should resonate for you.

The simple fact is that race was in this story because an unarmed black male was killed by a man who stalked and followed him while armed, because he believed the young black man to be a suspicious character. Zimmerman had a history of making phone calls about 'suspicious' black males, including a young boy-- I think 8.

Does that help you understand?

240 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:30:00pm

re: #238 alinuxguru

Zimmerman called 911 on whites and blacks. That proves, he is a block captain with too much time on his hand not a racist.

NBC's forgery was aired on March 27. Race became a concern long before that. Why you don't address this point?

241 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:30:02pm

re: #238 alinuxguru

Zimmerman called 911 on whites and blacks. That proves, he is a block captain with too much time on his hand not a racist.

You have the stats? I heard it was 7 to 1 black people. In a neighborhood that's 49% white.

242 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:30:13pm

re: #234 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

A troll, in the sense of a stalker or s pissed off old member who just wants to toy with people. Not saying it's most probable, I still think he's just stupid.

Yeah - the stalker troll answer is also a possibility. I agree that stupidity mixed with a complete lack of integrity is the most likely answer.

243 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:30:32pm

re: #238 alinuxguru

Zimmerman called 911 on whites and blacks. That proves, he is a block captain with too much time on his hand not a racist.

And it's certainly not proof that he's not a racist.

244 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:30:40pm

re: #238 alinuxguru

That's a Mount Everest sized pile of bullshit. He had a distinct problem with African Americans.

Well, we know where you stand now.

245 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:30:55pm

re: #238 alinuxguru

Zimmerman called 911 on whites and blacks. That proves, he is a block captain with too much time on his hand not a racist.

re: #238 alinuxguru

Zimmerman called 911 on whites and blacks. That proves, he is a block captain with too much time on his hand not a racist.

Do you live in florida?

246 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:30:56pm

re: #235 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

Oh... ?

BTW, that's what she seriously said. Been channeling her all along 8)

247 Shvaughn  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:31:24pm

re: #230 jaunte

Martin was shot February 26. NBC's edited tape aired on March 27.
That was after Geraldo Rivera "urged black and Hispanic parents not to let their children go around wearing hoodies."

Yeah, and besides everyone knows that it was OBAMA who injected race into the issue, on March 23!

//

248 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:31:30pm

re: #235 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

Oh... ?

???

249 blueraven  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:33:10pm

re: #230 jaunte

Martin was shot February 26. NBC's edited tape aired on March 27.
That was after Geraldo Rivera "urged black and Hispanic parents not to let their children go around wearing hoodies."

And after CNN ran their stupid repeated video audio of fucking c**ns over and over again, and after Right Wing websites tried to destroy Trayvon and make him out to be a 6'3" 200 lb drugged up-criminal-gangsta-hoodlum-thug!

250 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:33:14pm

re: #232 goddamnedfrank

Pretty obvious really. Wasting an interlocutor's time and frustrating them as an end to itself, in other words - trolling.

Yeah - OK. That would be a logical explanation. I think stupid/lacking integrity is about 60% probable to 40% being a troll.

251 Shvaughn  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:34:41pm

re: #250 Talking Point Detective

Yeah - OK. That would be a logical explanation. I think stupid/lacking integrity is about 60% probable to 40% being a troll.

The problem is that trolls are also stupid and lack integrity.

So there's 100% chance that this guy is stupid and has no integrity.

252 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:36:46pm

re: #246 The Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost of a Ghost

BTW, that's what she seriously said. Been channeling her all along 8)

If I remember correctly, Eliza was crated to spoof on people who suggested that AI could create useful programs for psychoanalysis.

253 alinuxguru  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:37:06pm

re: #243 wrenchwench

And it's certainly not proof that he's not a racist.

Exactly my point. His non-arrest can equally be explained by being related to a judge, the SYG law, and the way in which SYG discourages law enforcement to arrest people for fear of financial losses.

254 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:37:20pm

re: #251 Shvaughn

The problem is that trolls are also stupid and lack integrity.

So there's 100% chance that this guy is stupid and has no integrity.

Good point.

255 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:37:31pm

re: #253 alinuxguru

Are you going to deal, at any point, with your continuing factual errors?

256 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:40:01pm

re: #253 alinuxguru

Exactly my point. His non-arrest can equally be explained by being related to a judge, the SYG law, and the way in which SYG discourages law enforcement to arrest people for fear of financial losses.

I actually agree with that statement (except the reason why law enforcement uses SYG to not investigate - I think they probably don't investigate because of what the law stipulates is required - evidence to disprove a claim of self-defense).

But anyway, once again, what does that have to do with NBC?

257 makeitstop  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:41:38pm

Has anyone yet mentioned that Zimmerman's new lawyer is using shaken baby syndrome as a defense?

That's some desperate shit right there.

258 alinuxguru  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:44:21pm

re: #256 Talking Point Detective

I actually agree with that statement (except the reason why law enforcement uses SYG to not investigate - I think they probably don't investigate because of what the law stipulates is required - evidence to disprove a claim of self-defense).

But anyway, once again, what does that have to do with NBC?

The barrier is "probably cause". And, yes, the media has repeatedly made this story to be about race. Once this story took flight in the national media, it was all about "black vs. white" with no real evidence to substantiate that. The NBC example is the most egregious example, next to Spike Lee's.

259 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:44:23pm

re: #251 Shvaughn

The problem is that trolls are also stupid and lack integrity.

So there's 100% chance that this guy is stupid and has no integrity.

For me a lack of integrity is just another way of saying malicious liar, because personal integrity is generally what checks our impulse to tell lies in the first place. When one's reputation matters to them they self edit to the degree necessary to maintain it. Therefore the reservations some people have to labeling someone who repeatedly tells falsehoods a liar, while possibly rooted in a sense of reservation over the gravity of the word, serves no useful function.

260 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:45:06pm

re: #247 Shvaughn

Yeah, and besides everyone knows that it was OBAMA who injected race into the issue, on March 23!

//

Since Obama controls "the mainstream media," he's responsible for NBC's tape - thus proving wrong the contention that NBC is responsible for all the racial hostility. They were only doing his bidding.

261 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:45:25pm

re: #253 alinuxguru

Exactly my point. His non-arrest can equally be explained by being related to a judge, the SYG law, and the way in which SYG discourages law enforcement to arrest people for fear of financial losses.

It's pretty stupid to make a statement, be told it's wrong, and then say that's your point.

You are not making coherent arguments.

262 General Nimrod Bodfish  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:47:37pm

re: #257 makeitstop

From the article:

"We're familiar with the Shaken Baby Syndrome," said Uhrig on the CBS This Morning program. "You shake a baby, the brain shakes around inside the skull. You can die when someone's pounding your head into the ground."

As the video posted here shows, Zimmerman showed no signs of a struggle at all, let alone having his head slammed by Martin. Desperate grasping indeed.

263 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:48:26pm

re: #259 goddamnedfrank

For me a lack of integrity is just another way of saying malicious liar, because personal integrity is generally what checks our impulse to tell lies in the first place. When one's reputation matters to them they self edit to the degree necessary to maintain it. Therefore the reservations some people have to labeling someone who repeatedly tells falsehoods a liar, while possibly rooted in a sense of reservation over the gravity of the word, serves no useful function.

Just to be clear - it isn't the gravity of the word that leads me to question what could explain guru's behavior. I'm seriously trying to understand the motivation of someone who makes such an ass of himself.

264 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:52:21pm

re: #263 Talking Point Detective

Just to be clear - it isn't the gravity of the word that leads me to question what could explain guru's behavior. I'm seriously trying to understand the motivation of someone who makes such an ass of himself.

Yeah well I'm seriously trying to understand the Calabi-Yau manifold, with similar results.

265 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:55:37pm

re: #258 alinuxguru

The barrier is "probably cause". And, yes, the media has repeatedly made this story to be about race. Once this story took flight in the national media, it was all about "black vs. white" with no real evidence to substantiate that. The NBC example is the most egregious example, next to Spike Lee's.

First - as has been pointed out to you, the NBC tape was fairly far along the trajectory of public attention to this case. I read tons of commentary about the racial components of this case prior to NBC's tape.

Second, this story took flight precisely because of underlying racial tensions that exist. Read rightwing blogs and you will see tons of comments about black on black violence, or black on white violence. All of that commentary reflects a pervasive issue prevalent among rightwingers that whites are being unfairly blamed for problems in the black community. Similarly, it easy to find much commentary about concerns in the black community about racial profiling.

This case is a window into existing tensions and long-standing debates. To blame this on the media more generally is absurd, but to blame it on NBC's editing of that tape is completely nonsensical. Why don't you just admit that you made a mind-numbingly stupid statement, and then if you're interested, move on to a discussion of the very real racial issues reflected in the notoriety of this case?

266 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 3:57:34pm

re: #264 goddamnedfrank

Yeah well I'm seriously trying to understand the Calabi-Yau manifold, with similar results.

It's actually pretty simple once you've mastered string theory.

267 sattv4u2  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 4:13:50pm

re: #266 Talking Point Detective

It's actually pretty simple once you've mastered string theory.

I've done that!!

Well ,, actually ,,, Cats Cradle,,,,but thats string theory-ish ,, no ??

268 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 4:19:18pm

re: #50 Charles Johnson

Wow. Is there anyone on the whole Internet dumber than Jim Hoft? I think not. Liberal Media FAIL: Only 32% of Non-Blacks Say Zimmerman Is Guilty | the Gateway Pundit

Missing the point doesn't even begin to describe this one.

Wait, I thought we weren't going to try this in the media...?

269 sattv4u2  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 4:22:47pm

re: #268 SanFranciscoZionist

dammit ,,, I didn't post till # 267 ,.,, I'll just sit here waitin' on ya!!

270 Interesting Times  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 4:36:07pm

re: #263 Talking Point Detective

Just to be clear - it isn't the gravity of the word that leads me to question what could explain guru's behavior. I'm seriously trying to understand the motivation of someone who makes such an ass of himself.

Easy. Breitbart, Fox, etc prove to wingnuts that their lies go unpunished. And if their rightwing propaganda idols can repeatedly lie, without consequence, so too can they. It's stupidity, stubbornness, and lack of integrity all wrapped up in a noxious package of mind-blowing arrogance.

271 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 4:38:08pm

re: #170 alinuxguru

Because the narrative NBC created at the beginning of the reporting set the tone for all subsequent reporting. NBC stating that Zimmerman spontaneously uttering that he was pursuing a suspicious person who was black poisoned the dialog well. What would the narrative have been if the entire tape was played? Would we be more sympathetic to Zimmerman? No, but we would not be singularly fixated on race rather than Zimmerman's familial relationships and SYG.

SYG equally shields all ethnic groups from prosecution.

I'd be following the case for more than a week at the point at which NBC made their egregious dumbass blunder, and I first heard about it in the context of their version being debunked.

I do not think I can lay my perceptions of race in this situation at the door of NBCs foul.

272 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 4:43:47pm

re: #199 alinuxguru

The same theory would explain his claims about NBC.

The number of posters on this thread who insist on making it about race would explain my claim about NBC.

Only if you feel that it's an established fact that people were not 'making it' about race prior to NBC's damfoolery.

Which I can't figure out how you could possibly think.

273 alinuxguru  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 5:07:15pm

re: #265 Talking Point Detective

and then if you're interested, move on to a discussion of the very real racial issues reflected in the notoriety of this case?

OK, there are none. Zimmerman is free because his father, Sanford Cops and his father, and SYG. Nothing I have seen suggests that Zimmerman acted out of racial malice. Everything I have seen suggests that Zimmerman acted on an over-blown sense of self-importance.

However, instead, we are letting Zimmerman be tried by the media. And, the Nancy-Gracing of Zimmerman will accomplish nothing yet help ignite the villagers torches and sharpen their pitchforks.

274 Shvaughn  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 5:09:51pm

re: #273 alinuxguru

OK, there are none.

You sound pretty white.

275 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 5:10:09pm

re: #273 alinuxguru

You still have to address your factually incorrect claim:

NBC' initial inaccurate reporting single-handedly made this issue about race instead of one lone bully with an inferiority complex and too much time on his hands. It's been downhill ever since.

You've been proven wrong. Retract.

276 Achilles Tang  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 7:23:53pm

Oh god, the guru is still on. Back to TV.

277 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Apr 6, 2012 7:41:33pm

re: #273 alinuxguru

OK, there are none. Zimmerman is free because his father, Sanford Cops and his father, and SYG. Nothing I have seen suggests that Zimmerman acted out of racial malice. Everything I have seen suggests that Zimmerman acted on an over-blown sense of self-importance.

However, instead, we are letting Zimmerman be tried by the media. And, the Nancy-Gracing of Zimmerman will accomplish nothing yet help ignite the villagers torches and sharpen their pitchforks.

So you don't notice the irony that the last statement was made in a thread where armed white supremacists are patrolling Sanford?

That is just too fucking funny.

Apparently there was a clerical error on who got invited to the torch- and pitchfork- bearing mob.

278 scogind  Mon, Apr 9, 2012 10:00:05am

Does Sanford, Florida really have mountains like those in the photo? Looks more like the desert southwest to me.


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