Prosecutor’s Affidavit in Trayvon Case: ‘Zimmerman Confronted Martin’

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In the Trayvon Martin shooting case, George Zimmerman appeared in court today, and prosecutors filed a probable cause affidavit that directly contradicts Zimmerman’s statements on a key point: George Zimmerman Court Affidavit: ‘Zimmerman Confronted Martin’.

George Zimmerman (Seminole County Jail mugshot)The document says Trayvon’s mother identified the screams for help heard in a 911 call as those of her son. It also reveals that investigators interviewed a “friend” of Trayvon’s who was talking to him in the leadup to the shooting.

Based on the description, it appears the friend was the girl described by Martin family attorneys as his girlfriend.

“During this time, Martin was on the phone with a friend and described to her what was happening,” the affidavit said. “The witness advised that Martin was scared because he was being followed through the complex by an unknown male and didn’t know why.”

Martin tried to run home, the affidavit says, but was followed by Zimmerman. “Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and followed Martin.”

The affidavit goes on to say that “Zimmerman disregarded the police dispatcher” who told him to stop, and “continued to follow Martin who was trying to return to his home.”

Zimmerman, the affidavit says, “confronted Martin and a struggle ensued.”

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227 comments
1 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 12:57:03pm

Looking like murder to me if that is true.

2 erik_t  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 12:57:11pm

Is this the release of a document from the prosecution, or an ostensibly-neutral police-report-sort-of-thing?

I confess I don't know much about this process.

3 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 12:57:19pm
4 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 12:58:34pm

re: #2 erik_t

Is this the release of a document from the prosecution, or an ostensibly-neutral police-report-sort-of-thing?

I confess I don't know much about this process.

Probable cause affidavit. IANAL, but I suppose it may be connected to the SYG law, which forbids charging and prosecution without probable cause, so the judge must find the probable cause agreeable in order for the whole thing to proceed.

5 dragonfire1981  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 12:58:50pm

I swear between that shot of Zimmerman and the other one floating around before yesterday it looks like he's lost a bit of weight.

Unless Zimmerman had a damn good reason to "Confront" Trayvon (and I don't think he did), he'll likely end up serving prison time for this.

6 Lidane  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 12:58:58pm

re: #2 erik_t

It's a sworn statement: Affidavit of Probable Cause

7 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 12:59:07pm

re: #2 erik_t

It's the prosecutor, so it's going to be 'biased' towards the prosecution.

8 TedStriker  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 12:59:45pm

Hopefully with this, Zimmerman is well and truly FUBAR...

9 Simply Sarah  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:00:21pm

This really isn't all that surprising, if only because the prosecution basically needs to be making most of these claims in order to be justified in arresting him and charging him with 2nd degree murder. If it didn't sound damning, then I'd have been shocked.

10 kirkspencer  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:03:32pm

I'm trying to find the actual affidavit.

I know that pretty much everything else was sealed. Zimmerman's attorney made the request and Corey (the prosecutor) agreed.

Next appearance (arraignment) is scheduled for May 29th.

11 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:06:00pm

From that mugshot, by the way, it doesn't look at all like his nose was recently broken.

12 Stanghazi  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:06:15pm

re: #10 kirkspencer

I'm trying to find the actual affidavit.

I know that pretty much everything else was sealed. Zimmerman's attorney made the request and Corey (the prosecutor) agreed.

Next appearance (arraignment) is scheduled for May 29th.

Orlando sentinel has it

13 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:07:03pm

re: #9 Simply Sarah

This really isn't all that surprising, if only because the prosecution basically needs to be making most of these claims in order to be justified in arresting him and charging him with 2nd degree murder. If it didn't sound damning, then I'd have been shocked.

Agreed. From the title I originally thought this was Zimmerman's statement that he confronted Martin. It took me a few seconds to figure out this is the prosecution's claim. Since they're filling for a murder charge I think they pretty much have to say that Zimmerman confronted Trayvon.

14 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:07:36pm

Here's the affidavit PDF:

[Link: media.trb.com...]

15 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:08:05pm

re: #13 Killgore Trout

From the title I originally thought this was Zimmerman's statement that he confronted Martin. It took me a few seconds to figure out this is the prosecution's claim.

Same here.

16 Bob Dillon  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:08:26pm

re: #11 Charles Johnson

How Long Does a Broken Nose Take to Heal?
[Link: www.realself.com...]

assuming the fracture is straight and minor, and doesn't need to be reset, how long does it take a broken nose to heal?

+1
How long for a broken nose to heal

The time for healing with a broken nose is dependent on the severity of the fracture. Usually, a fractured nasal bone will heal in 2-3 weeks, which is the window to perform a closed reduction and move the nasal bones back into normal position.
Etai Funk, MD
Houston Facial Plastic Surgeon
[Link: www.funkfacialplastics.com...]

+1
Healing of a broken nose

Bones are considered broken for a period of four weeks. Any activity that can traumatize your nose in my opinion should be avoided for that period. You can walk use an elliptical but, that is probably about it. Trauma during this period could displace a fracture that is currently in position,
Roger J. Friedman, MD
Bethesda Plastic Surgeon
+1
Healing of a broken nose

In your case I would suggest refraining from any potentially traumatic activity for six weeks. You should have adequate healing of the nasal bones by then. Wishing you all the best, Tal Raine MD FACS
Talmage J. Raine, MD
Chicago Plastic Surgeon
+1
A broken nose will be stable in just a few days but swelling might persist for months.

With simple, non-displaced fractures of the nose, the pieces are generally pretty stable in a few days. Making a decision to repair any cosmetic damage caused by the fracture should be put off for several months.
Vincent N. Zubowicz, MD
Atlanta Plastic Surgeon

17 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:08:51pm

re: #14 Charles Johnson

Here's the affidavit PDF:

[Link: media.trb.com...]

Interesting that the prosecution is going with the "fucking punks" interpretation.

18 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:11:16pm

Hypothetically, how are they going to prove Zimmerman initiated the confrontation? Aside from a witness how else can they prove that?

19 allegro  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:11:39pm

I saw Zimmerman's brother last night with Piers Morgan. Couldn't count the number of times I shouted expletives at the TV for his outright lies and total contradictions. The worst part was when Morgan asked him what he'd like to say to the Martin family. The guy went on at length to talk about how the reaction to this incident had caused so much discomfort and inconvenience to HIS family and then said he hoped, "for the sake of peace" that the Martin family let it go when his brother was exonerated. It was gobsmacking in its insensitivity and narcissism.

20 makeitstop  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:11:46pm

The prosecution makes note of GZ disregarding the dispatcher's advice not to follow Trayvon as well. It will prove to be a reinforcing point in their case, IMO.

21 kirkspencer  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:11:58pm

re: #12 Hoodies for Justice. T

re: #14 Charles Johnson

Thank you both for affidavit info.

22 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:13:09pm

re: #17 Killgore Trout

Interesting that the prosecution is going with the "fucking punks" interpretation.

Yep. But so many people were sooo sure about "coons".

23 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:13:20pm

re: #19 allegro

I saw Zimmerman's brother last night with Piers Morgan. Couldn't count the number of times I shouted expletives at the TV for his outright lies and total contradictions. The worst part was when Morgan asked him what he'd like to say to the Martin family. The guy went on at length to talk about how the reaction to this incident had caused so much discomfort and inconvenience to HIS family and then said he hoped, "for the sake of peace" that the Martin family let it go when his brother was exonerated. It was gobsmacking in its insensitivity and narcissism.

"let it go" Yeah what an asshole. Their son is dead. Even if Zimmerman didn't commit murder, that's a real shitty thing to say to a grieving family. Zimmerman's family needs to remember their son/brother iwasn't the victim here, Martin was.

24 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:13:38pm

(Gus and SFZ win on "punks").

25 Bubblehead II  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:14:01pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

I am going to go out on a limb here and say from the 911 tape of him (TM) yelling for help.

26 Gus  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:14:12pm

re: #24 Johnny Derp

(Gus and SFZ win on "punks").

[Bows]

[Dobro slide]

27 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:14:17pm

Meanwhile, the Catholic League is really posting ugly stuff on Twitter today:

28 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:15:28pm

re: #27 Charles Johnson

Meanwhile, the Catholic League is really posting ugly stuff on Twitter today:

It's nice to see the Catholic League acting like middle schoolers. Assholes.

29 allegro  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:15:50pm

re: #23 HappyWarrior

"let it go" Yeah what an asshole. Their son is dead. Even if Zimmerman didn't commit murder, that's a real shitty thing to say to a grieving family. Zimmerman's family needs to remember their son/brother iwasn't the victim here, Martin was.

Not according to him or, apparently, the Zimmerman family. Their angel son was ruthlessly attacked and would be dead or paralyzed or something if he hadn't righteously defended himself. Oh, according to his brother he wasn't following Trayvon either. He insisted on that point.

30 Gus  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:15:52pm

re: #27 Charles Johnson

Meanwhile, the Catholic League is really posting ugly stuff on Twitter today:

Weird. That doesn't sound like a devoutly Catholic organization meant to be taken seriously. Sounds like a wingnut. Maybe they should change their name to the Catholic Wingnut League.

31 TedStriker  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:15:54pm

re: #17 Killgore Trout

Interesting that the prosecution is going with the "fucking punks" interpretation.

I'd think they can always amend the affidavit if the DoJ's analysis of the 911 tape differs from the FL special prosecutors'.

FWIW, I still think Zimmerman said "fucking coons"; I listened to the "raw" audio over and over and the sounds on that tape sound nothing like "punks" to my Southern ears.

YMMV, however.

32 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:16:27pm

Yeah, it probably was "punks." That doesn't make it much better for Zimmerman, though - it may not have been a racist slur, but he clearly was looking for trouble.

33 Bob Dillon  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:16:49pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Hypothetically, how are they going to prove Zimmerman initiated the confrontation? Aside from a witness how else can they prove that?

When he dismounted his vehicle the equation changed from "observer/reporter" to potential confronter.

34 justaminute  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:16:57pm

I don't know why I get shocked considering how long I've looked at political blogs but the Zimmerman supporters turning Trayvon into some kind of thug because he has been suspended from school, shocks and saddens me. Their desperation to turn this into a left vs right situation is just crazy. Everything is a contest with them now, not just the elections.

35 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:16:59pm
Lesbian Dem Hilary Rosen tells Ann Romney she never worked a day in her life. Unlike Rosen, who had to adopt kids, Ann raised 5 of her own.

I don't tell anyone what to do. But in this world adoption may just be a more rational choice than adding more people to the 7 billion. Just saying.

36 blueraven  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:17:01pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Hypothetically, how are they going to prove Zimmerman initiated the confrontation? Aside from a witness how else can they prove that?

This is just the initial claim for probable cause. I would assume they have more evidence.

37 jaunte  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:17:50pm
Unlike Rosen, who had to adopt kids, Ann raised 5 of her own.

Dopes.
Does the Catholic League have any other members than Bill Donovan?

38 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:18:12pm

re: #37 jaunte

Dopes.
Does the Catholic League have any other members than Bill Donovan?

I believe Alan Keyes is a member. It's Donahue by the way. Bill Donovan was the leader of the OSS during WWII.

39 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:18:54pm

re: #31 talon_262

FWIW, I still think Zimmerman said "fucking coons"; I listened to the "raw" audio over and over and the sounds on that tape sounds nothing like "punks".

So did I, and it also sounds nothing like "coons". Moreover, this is one of those cases when you simply can't rely on what you allegedly hear.

40 kirkspencer  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:19:32pm

re: #33 Bob Dillon

When he dismounted his vehicle the equation changed from "observer/reporter" to potential confronter.

yes.

He told the police he was following Martin. His statement later that he only got out to check the address runs into this and the fact of the actual location of the shooting.

41 Gus  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:19:55pm

BBL

42 Henchman 25  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:20:56pm

The usual suspects dropping by to deny this in 3... 2... 1...

43 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:21:34pm

re: #34 justaminute

I don't know why I get shocked considering how long I've looked at political blogs but the Zimmerman supporters turning Trayvon into some kind of thug because he has been suspended from school, shocks and saddens me. Their desperation to turn this into a left vs right situation is just crazy. Everything is a contest with them now, not just the elections.

What's amusing is they attempt to make Martin into a thug over one suspension from school when Zimmerman has been arrested thrice. And don't get me started on Geraldo Rivera's moronic statement about hoodies.

44 TedStriker  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:22:04pm

re: #39 Johnny Derp

So did I, and it also sounds nothing like "coons". Moreover, this is one of those cases when you simply can't rely on what you allegedly hear.

Maybe he said "fucking poons"...hey, maybe he was just horny and on the prowl.

///

45 erik_t  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:22:23pm

re: #27 Charles Johnson

They're digging deeper!?

I figured some twitter-intern would be shitcanned for the first one, but they're digging deeper!?

46 TDG2112  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:25:17pm

Ok, at the street level this is playing out it matters if Zimmerman is convicted.

But at the National political level what does this matter?

In my opinion here is how things are going to play out:
1. If Zimmerman is convicted everyone breathes a sigh of collective releif and moves on. This includes the NRA and other supporters of this law. They can say: "See, the stand your ground law wasn't an issue here, it was a crazy person." Shoot first law stands.

2. Zimmerman gets off (nominally because the shoot first law let him). All hell breaks loose, national movement to repeal all these insane laws and restrict gun rights.

Oh yeah, if #2 happens Rush and company will go on air and scream Liberals are dancing in the streets and are happy he got off because this means they can kill these laws.

So, in the end, everyone wants Zimmerman convicted. Especially supporters of the shoot first/stand your ground laws.

47 A Man for all Seasons  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:25:31pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Hypothetically, how are they going to prove Zimmerman initiated the confrontation? Aside from a witness how else can they prove that?

I have wondered also..
It's not what you believe but what you can prove..
- A few Good men..

48 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:25:47pm

re: #44 talon_262

Maybe he said "fucking poons"...hey, maybe he was just horny and on the prowl.

///

More specifically, it didn't sound like anything ending with "-oons". There was no [u:] sound. It sounded more like "cones" than anything. But then, one shouldn't trust noisy low-res phone recordings.

Now true, if I tweak it around in my mind, I can force myself to accepts "coons" - but then, with tweaking I can accept "punks" too.

It is clear though that the prosecution that is literally scrapping for evidence wouldn't put this into the affidavit if they weren't sure.

49 darthstar  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:25:47pm

Zimmerman confronted Martin? Where have I read that before?

50 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:27:04pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Hypothetically, how are they going to prove Zimmerman initiated the confrontation? Aside from a witness how else can they prove that?

I don't know what they'll do, but hypothetically - and still within plausibility - GZ may have blabbed about it to someone. Also in such cases I sometimes read how phones are tapped (with a warrant, of course) and incriminating details emerge from talks...

51 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:28:08pm

re: #50 Johnny Derp

I don't know what they'll do, but hypothetically - and still within plausibility - GZ may have blabbed about it to someone. Also in such cases I sometimes read how phones are tapped (with a warrant, of course) and incriminating details emerge from talks...

That's a good theory. He does like to talk.

52 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:28:56pm

re: #51 Killgore Trout

Could be a bit of bluff, of course.

53 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:29:17pm

Wow.

54 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:30:33pm

re: #53 Charles Johnson

Wow.

That's absurd and I have priests in my family. But then again Charles the CL has mounted a huge effort to smear the victims of clerical abuse.

55 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:30:36pm

re: #53 Charles Johnson

He's like totally missing the point. And I'm like totally writing a too-obvious observation.

56 jamesfirecat  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:30:41pm

re: #53 Charles Johnson

Wow.

Of course by their logic that means 0.02% are guilty of molesting children and are part of an organization that seems to be doing everything it can to keep them from being tried and sent to jail.

57 jaunte  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:30:54pm
58 kirkspencer  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:31:57pm

re: #53 Charles Johnson

Wow.

There are approximately 370,000 priests in the world. .02% is 74 priests.

Yeah, I think hes lying.

59 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:32:11pm

re: #57 jaunte

[Embedded content]

I think they were attacking Rosen for being a lesbian and adopting. Not that it all excuses what they tweeted about her but I think that's what it was more so than attacking adoption as a whole.

60 Bulworth  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:32:30pm
Unlike Rosen, who had to adopt kids

WTF?! I thought the "pro-lifers" were all about adoption?

61 Interesting Times  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:33:04pm
62 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:34:48pm

re: #45 erik_t

They're digging deeper!?

I figured some twitter-intern would be shitcanned for the first one, but they're digging deeper!?

Despite it's mild name, The Catholic League and Donahue in particularly say derp-y, crazy, and inflammatory stuff constantly.

They routinely claim that priests caught in sexual improprieties aren't child molesters b/c their targets are pubescent, and have at least once claimed that many molestation cases are a consensual relationship that concludes with the kid having regrets and making accusations.

They're nuts of the first order.

63 Bulworth  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:35:25pm

re: #27 Charles Johnson

Meanwhile, the Catholic League is really posting ugly stuff on Twitter today:

I must admit these are some pretty thought-provoking tweets from The Catholic League. Very insightful, wise, appealing. Makes me want to sign up. //

64 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:35:58pm

With apologies to Catholics.

65 bluecheese  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:36:17pm

re: #27 Charles Johnson

unlike Rosen, who had to adopt kids, Ann raised 5 of her own.

at risk of being captain obvious here, I feel obligated to point out that lesbians are perfectly capable of giving birth to newborn babies.

66 Randall Gross  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:39:49pm

re: #53 Charles Johnson

The problem isn't the amount, the problem is the institutional response. It looks like Bill Donohue wants to return to cover up and diminishing.

[Link: www.therepublic.com...]

67 erik_t  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:40:09pm

re: #53 Charles Johnson

Wow.

[Embedded content]

Can an organization flounce from the comment-section of civilized society?

68 lawhawk  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:40:38pm

Re: probable cause affidavit.

The whole purpose is to persuade the court that there is probable cause to proceed on the 2d degree murder charge.

I think this succeeds. It doesn't present the entire case, or all evidence. It is sufficient to pass the first hurdle.

As it is, a few points are fleshed out- plus a few other observations:

1) the dispatcher informed Zimmerman that an officer was on the way and to wait for the officer. That will be fleshed out with transcripts (note that the call was recorded).
2) both Martin and Zimmerman were on cellphones during the incident. That will help focus the time frame of action. The prosecutors will be able to interweave the conversations together to give a more complete narrative than otherwise. It will help clarify when and how the struggle ensued.
3) it clearly indicates that Martin was doing nothing illegal and was not carrying any weapon (only a can of soda and Skittles).
4) Zimmerman admits to shooting, but claims self defense. It therefore raises the question whether Zimmerman was in a situation that required self-defense in the first place (hence the charge of 2d degree murder).

69 Lidane  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:42:25pm

re: #19 allegro

The worst part was when Morgan asked him what he'd like to say to the Martin family. The guy went on at length to talk about how the reaction to this incident had caused so much discomfort and inconvenience to HIS family and then said he hoped, "for the sake of peace" that the Martin family let it go when his brother was exonerated. It was gobsmacking in its insensitivity and narcissism.

Speaking of insensitive:

Zimmerman Attorney Defends ‘Troubled’ Client: ‘It Must Be Frightening Not To Be Able To Go Into A 7/11’

70 darthstar  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:42:33pm

Video of Hannity fellating Romney before an interview (safe for work, because Romney's a dickless fucker)

[Link: gawker.com...]

71 darthstar  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:43:21pm

re: #69 Lidane

Speaking of insensitive:

Zimmerman Attorney Defends ‘Troubled’ Client: ‘It Must Be Frightening Not To Be Able To Go Into A 7/11’

I've been in some 7-11s where it was more frightening to go in than stay outside.

72 Lidane  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:43:28pm

re: #58 kirkspencer

Yeah, I think hes lying.

He's talking. Of course he's lying.

73 Kragar  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:43:33pm

re: #70 darthstar

Video of Hannity fellating Romney before an interview (safe for work, because Romney's a dickless fucker)

[Link: gawker.com...]

But Romney said his penis is just the right length...

74 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:45:55pm

If the Catholic hierarchy was smarter, they would have already told Donahue to STFU.

75 justaminute  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:45:55pm

re: #68 lawhawk

They could also bring up this point to show his frame of mind when Zimmerman threw out the statement "They always get away." to the 911 dispatcher. Especially with this linked to his previous calls to 911.

77 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:48:16pm

re: #40 kirkspencer

yes.

He told the police he was following Martin. His statement later that he only got out to check the address runs into this and the fact of the actual location of the shooting.

Do we know that was his statement, or only that his father an/or brother made the claim that is what he said?

78 TedStriker  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:52:09pm

re: #69 Lidane

Speaking of insensitive:

Zimmerman Attorney Defends ‘Troubled’ Client: ‘It Must Be Frightening Not To Be Able To Go Into A 7/11’

Yeah, it must be frightening for Zimmerman, especially if he goes in a 7-11 for some Skittles and Arizona Iced Tea...

///heavy

79 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:56:23pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Hypothetically, how are they going to prove Zimmerman initiated the confrontation? Aside from a witness how else can they prove that?

There's the question. It's possible there's another witness we haven't heard. I've read a few places that he was "100 yards" from his door. If that's true (and looking at the google map view it's probably close) I don't see how Martin couldn't have made it home unless Zimmerman is really fast.

80 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:56:52pm
81 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:56:56pm

re: #46 TDG2112

Ok, at the street level this is playing out it matters if Zimmerman is convicted.

But at the National political level what does this matter?

In my opinion here is how things are going to play out:
1. If Zimmerman is convicted everyone breathes a sigh of collective releif and moves on. This includes the NRA and other supporters of this law. They can say: "See, the stand your ground law wasn't an issue here, it was a crazy person." Shoot first law stands.

2. Zimmerman gets off (nominally because the shoot first law let him). All hell breaks loose, national movement to repeal all these insane laws and restrict gun rights.

Oh yeah, if #2 happens Rush and company will go on air and scream Liberals are dancing in the streets and are happy he got off because this means they can kill these laws.

So, in the end, everyone wants Zimmerman convicted. Especially supporters of the shoot first/stand your ground laws.

There's still potentially a problem with the laws even if he's convicted. If SYG is not a valid defense because he "confronted" Martin - but not on the basis of him following Martin - the laws will still be problematic in the general public eye. How many times have you read apologists for the laws saying that they don't apply because he followed Martin? That was wishful thinking on their part because they know that for reasonable people, his following Martin should in itself, negate a "self-defense" claim. And that is the direct counterpart to the previous standard of "last resort" and an obligation to flee a violent threat.

Granted, that level of distinction is subtle, and in itself may not stimulate much public concern. But I would imagine that the laws will not easily escape a focused scrutiny - and in that case, that distinction would be meaningful. Certainly, there's a good chance these laws will be repealed in non-lunatic dominated municipalities - and in fact it seems initiatives are already underway in some communities.

82 justaminute  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:57:00pm

I just don't know why anyone gives any credence to the "self defense" claim when he sought out the situation. If someone was following me on a dark rainy night in an unmarked car, my first thought that this person means to harm me. If he managed to confront me, you can bet that I might risk taking a punch at him as well as screaming like a banshee when he pulled out a gun.

83 darthstar  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:57:35pm

re: #79 RogueOne

There's the question. It's possible there's another witness we haven't heard. I've read a few places that he was "100 yards" from his door. If that's true (and looking at the google map view it's probably close) I don't see how Martin couldn't have made it home unless Zimmerman is really fast.

It's his word against Trayvon's...oh, wait...

84 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:58:12pm

I more surprised that Zimmerman didn't ask for a bail hearing. He's willing to spend 2 months in jail waiting? I don't understand that "strategery".

85 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:58:24pm

re: #82 justaminute

I just don't know why anyone gives any credence to the "self defense" claim when he sought out the situation.

It seems that some do, as the laws in themselves give credence to a "self-defense" claim in such a situation.

86 allegro  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:58:36pm

re: #79 RogueOne

There's the question. It's possible there's another witness we haven't heard. I've read a few places that he was "100 yards" from his door. If that's true (and looking at the google map view it's probably close) I don't see how Martin couldn't have made it home unless Zimmerman is really fast.

That sounds like the stuff Zimmerman's brother was saying last night on CNN. See, it was Martin's fault because he had the CHOICE to go home. So it was clearly his fault for getting shot with GZ's gun.

87 chaosium  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:59:26pm

re: #58 kirkspencer

There are approximately 370,000 priests in the world. .02% is 74 priests.

Yeah, I think hes lying.

Perhaps he meant .02% of Catholics, worldwide.

88 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 1:59:55pm

re: #84 RogueOne

I more surprised that Zimmerman didn't ask for a bail hearing. He's willing to spend 2 months in jail waiting? I don't understand that "strategery".

It is understandable if he wants to stay away from the outside world.

89 allegro  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:00:15pm

re: #82 justaminute

I just don't know why anyone gives any credence to the "self defense" claim when he sought out the situation. If someone was following me on a dark rainy night in an unmarked car, my first thought that this person means to harm me. If he managed to confront me, you can bet that I might risk taking a punch at him as well as screaming like a banshee when he pulled out a gun.

Not according to some here. He may be a deaf-mute just wanting directions.

90 Lidane  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:01:23pm

re: #84 RogueOne

I more surprised that Zimmerman didn't ask for a bail hearing. He's willing to spend 2 months in jail waiting? I don't understand that "strategery".

Didn't you hear his lawyer? He's terrified. Poor guy can't even go to a 7-11 anymore. =P

91 darthstar  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:01:33pm

re: #80 Killgore Trout

Can't we all just get along?
Rodney King pleads for calm in Trayvon Martin case

I don't know what's worse...Rodney King repeating his "Why can't we all just get along?" plea or CNN seeking him out 21 years later to help stir the

OMG THE BLACKS ARE GOING TO RIOT

fears.

It's not Rodney King's fault...he's been used a few times in the last few decades as a poster child for white fear.

92 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:01:36pm

re: #80 Killgore Trout

Can't we all just get along?
Rodney King pleads for calm in Trayvon Martin case

Zimmerman should have taken Rodney and Reginald's suggestion:

Stay in your car!
[Link: www.hulu.com...]

93 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:01:40pm

re: #84 RogueOne

I more surprised that Zimmerman didn't ask for a bail hearing. He's willing to spend 2 months in jail waiting? I don't understand that "strategery".

I find it hard to believe he would have been granted bail - although that isn't a reason not to request a bail hearing. Could he get protective custody if he had been granted bail? Can he request bail at a later time?

94 Cankles McCellulite  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:02:41pm

re: #89 allegro

Did someone really say that?

95 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:02:45pm

re: #86 allegro

That sounds like the stuff Zimmerman's brother was saying last night on CNN. See, it was Martin's fault because he had the CHOICE to go home. So it was clearly his fault for getting shot with GZ's gun.

This is a murder trial so there is going to be fault laid somewhere. The prosecution says Zimmerman made the initial contact and I'm curious as to how they're going to prove that considering what I mentioned above.

96 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:03:18pm

re: #91 darthstar

I don't know what's worse...Rodney King repeating his "Why can't we all just get along?" plea or CNN seeking him out 21 years later to help stir the

fears.

It's not Rodney King's fault...he's been used a few times in the last few decades as a poster child for white fear.

Dude - for a conservative, you're really alright. I wish there were more of your breed.

97 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:03:38pm

re: #93 Talking Point Detective

I find it hard to believe he would have been granted bail - although that isn't a reason not to request a bail hearing. Could he get protective custody if he had been granted bail? Can he request bail at a later time?

I have no idea. His lawyer said he wants the issue to die down a bit but I wouldn't want to sit my ass in jail waiting if I thought I acted in self-defense.

98 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:04:23pm

re: #95 RogueOne

This is a murder trial so there is going to be fault laid somewhere. The prosecution says Zimmerman made the initial contact and I'm curious as to how they're going to prove that considering what I mentioned above.

Just a clarification - they said that he "confronted" him. It isn't clear yet exactly what that means.

99 kirkspencer  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:04:33pm

re: #77 Talking Point Detective

Do we know that was his statement, or only that his father an/or brother made the claim that is what he said?

good question, I'm not sure of the answer. Other possibles are the "leaked police reports".

100 darthstar  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:04:39pm

re: #96 Talking Point Detective

Dude - for a conservative, you're really alright. I wish there were more of your breed.

A conservative? Me? I ride left of Kucinich.

101 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:04:57pm

re: #88 Johnny Derp

It is understandable if he wants to stay away from the outside world.

Jail is the last place he wants to be unless he's in solitary confinement. Around here if someone was charged with murder they'd be locked down 23 out of 24 hours so it might be the same there.

102 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:05:02pm

Let's be clear about one thing: it's vastly likely this would not have happened if this case has not been publicized, without the popular outcry.

103 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:05:53pm

re: #100 darthstar

A conservative? Me? I ride left of Kucinich.

Oops. No wonder you're alright. Might have you confused with someone that has a similar nic?

104 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:06:27pm

re: #100 darthstar

A conservative? Me? I ride left of Kucinich.

Well, there you go. There's nobody to the left of Kucinich, that's where the infamous far-left/far-right junction begins. //

105 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:06:55pm

re: #103 Talking Point Detective

Oops. No wonder you're alright. Might have you confused with someone that has a similar nic?

bloodstar? He's a libertarian.

106 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:07:14pm

re: #104 Johnny Derp

Well, there you go. There's nobody to the left of Kucinich, that's where the infamous far-left/far-right junction begins. //

A wingnut with a left handed thread.

107 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:07:35pm

re: #102 Johnny Derp

Let's be clear about one thing: it's vastly likely this would not have happened if this case has not been publicized, without the popular outcry.

It never would have happened - and that is why SYG is relevant even if it doesn't work as a defense in this case. Baring the public outrcry, SYG would have led to the continuation of no additional scrutiny of Martin's death.

108 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:08:14pm

re: #105 Johnny Derp

bloodstar? He's a libertarian.

No way, thems crazy people.....

109 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:08:51pm

re: #108 RogueOne

No way, thems crazy people...

Yep. Rogue barbarians.

110 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:09:02pm

re: #17 Killgore Trout

Interesting that the prosecution is going with the "fucking punks" interpretation.

I TOLD YOU SO.

///

111 Randall Gross  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:09:57pm

re: #57 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Rnc is already trying to distancethemselves :

Sean Spicer, communications director for the Republican National Committee, is quickly creating some distance from a comment by the conservative group the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights.

112 makeitstop  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:10:04pm

re: #84 RogueOne

I more surprised that Zimmerman didn't ask for a bail hearing. He's willing to spend 2 months in jail waiting? I don't understand that "strategery".

Flight risk. They would have denied bail since he took off once already.

113 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:10:33pm
Unlike Rosen, who had to adopt kids, Ann raised 5 of her own.

As an adoptive parent this infuriates me.

I'd say more but I don't want to be banned.

114 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:10:35pm

re: #110 SanFranciscoZionist

I TOLD YOU SO.

///

She's come to collect her kudos.

115 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:10:56pm

re: #23 HappyWarrior

"let it go" Yeah what an asshole. Their son is dead. Even if Zimmerman didn't commit murder, that's a real shitty thing to say to a grieving family. Zimmerman's family needs to remember their son/brother iwasn't the victim here, Martin was.

That's been a problem from the start. A lot of people haven't been content to say that it was a tragic misadventure of which Trayvon was the victim, they want him to be the villain. I realize that any form of "I'm sorry" is now taken as an admission of legal guilt, but what the hell is wrong with 'My heart goes out to your family'?

116 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:13:26pm

re: #30 Gus

Weird. That doesn't sound like a devoutly Catholic organization meant to be taken seriously. Sounds like a wingnut. Maybe they should change their name to the Catholic Wingnut League.

The Catholic League have been wingnuts since the year I was born.

117 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:14:12pm

re: #116 SanFranciscoZionist

The Catholic League have been wingnuts since the year I was born.

COINCIDENCE??!!?

118 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:14:36pm

re: #37 jaunte

Dopes.
Does the Catholic League have any other members than Bill Donovan?

They claim more than 230,000 members as of 1999, says Wikipedia.

I wonder how many of those are Catholics, though.

119 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:14:43pm

re: #102 Johnny Derp

Let's be clear about one thing: it's vastly likely this would not have happened if this case has not been publicized, without the popular outcry.

If Zimmerman had been arrested and charged in February (as the local police seem to have wanted but were overridden by the DA) then we would probably not be discussing it right now. We probagbly would not even have heard about it.

And Z probably could've even been acquitted without it causing a major stir.

But now it is a nation-wide incident and a focal point of the current state of guns, law and order and race relations.

It can only go wrong at this point.

120 kirkspencer  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:15:02pm

re: #116 SanFranciscoZionist

The Catholic League have been wingnuts since the year I was born.

Not quite as bad as the Westboro Baptist church.

maybe.

121 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:15:06pm

re: #115 SanFranciscoZionist

My theory is still that Martin confronted Zimmerman but I don't think that makes him a villain of any kind. At 17 (crap, at 40!) I would have done the same thing if some asshole was watching me and then had the nerve to follow me around.

122 darthstar  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:15:07pm

re: #103 Talking Point Detective

Oops. No wonder you're alright. Might have you confused with someone that has a similar nic?

I don't know...maybe I really am a conservative and I just want to control women's uteri and talk about Jesus (though even when I was a kid I found that oddly discomforting)...and tax cuts for the rich...can't forget that.

123 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:16:00pm

re: #120 kirkspencer

Not quite as bad as the Westboro Baptist church.

maybe.

I suppose they may have a tad bit more influence and resources than WBC. But I'm only guessing.

124 Bubblehead II  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:16:11pm

re: #112 makeitstop

Flight risk. They would have denied bail since he took off once already.

Not really. He was under no legal obligation to stick around (no charges). He went into hiding, yes, but out of fear for his life (or so they say). He also contacted, of his own free will, without the knowledge of his lawyers (idiot) the D.A and surrendered of his own free will. Doesn't sound like a flight risk to me.

125 darthstar  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:16:34pm

re: #121 RogueOne

My theory is still that Martin confronted Zimmerman but I don't think that makes him a villain of any kind. At 17 (crap, at 40!) I would have done the same thing if some asshole was watching me and then had the nerve to follow me around.

Maybe, but I suspect turning around and saying, "Hey asshole! Stop following me." isn't exactly grounds for getting shot.

126 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:16:47pm

re: #122 darthstar

I don't know...maybe I really am a conservative and I just want to control women's uteri and talk about Jesus (though even when I was a kid I found that oddly discomforting)...and tax cuts for the rich...can't forget that.

That makes you sound like a serial killer.....Gotta go put on your skin suit?

127 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:17:06pm

re: #60 Bulworth

WTF?! I thought the "pro-lifers" were all about adoption?

Not if you're a lesbian. Then it's just part of your gay agenda.

128 darthstar  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:17:33pm

re: #126 RogueOne

That makes you sound like a serial killer...Gotta go put on your skin suit?

I was trying to sound like a presidential candidate.

129 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:18:19pm

re: #65 bluecheese

at risk of being captain obvious here, I feel obligated to point out that lesbians are perfectly capable of giving birth to newborn babies.

Donohue doesn't like that either.

130 justaminute  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:19:32pm

re: #98 Talking Point Detective

Just a clarification - they said that he "confronted" him. It isn't clear yet exactly what that means.

Well, the phone call with the girlfriend. Treyon relaid the info that he was being followed by this individual (Zimmerman), yet appears on this path alongside him that was not on the street. The confrontation occurred not on the street, but in a grassy area between the condos. Zimmerman was not in his car, thus assuming confrontation. And by the way the street signs weren't there either, they are next to the street because Zimmerman defenders assume he got out of the car to look at the street signs. But that is not where the shooting happened. The one witness said he was looking out his back windows trying to observe were the screams came from. Zimmerman was a lot further from his car than a lot of people think.

131 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:19:49pm

[Link: www.seattlepi.com...]

Egypt's parliament has passed a bill that strips senior figures of ousted President Hosni Mubarak's regime of their political rights for 10 years.
Thursday's vote is designed to stop Mubarak's former spy chief and vice president, Omar Suleiman, from running in next month's presidential election.

132 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:20:26pm

re: #66 Randall Gross

The problem isn't the amount, the problem is the institutional response. It looks like Bill Donohue wants to return to cover up and diminishing.

[Link: www.therepublic.com...]

I'll repeat it for the hundred and seventeenth time: the Catholics I know are not angry because the priesthood had some sexual predators in it. They know that all populations are going to have some sexual predators in them, and that this was one that for various sociological reasons was at higher risk.

What they're mad about is that the Church hierarchy in cold blood, repeatedly, for decades, prioritized protecting sexual predators in the priesthood over protecting the children of the faithful.

That's what they're mad about.

133 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:20:33pm

re: #119 Expand Your Ground

It can only go wrong at this point.

How's that?

134 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:21:48pm

re: #132 SanFranciscoZionist

I'll repeat it for the hundred and seventeenth time: the Catholics I know are not angry because the priesthood had some sexual predators in it. They know that all populations are going to have some sexual predators in them, and that this was one that for various sociological reasons was at higher risk.

What they're mad about is that the Church hierarchy in cold blood, repeatedly, for decades, prioritized protecting sexual predators in the priesthood over protecting the children of the faithful.

That's what they're mad about.

That's been my observation as well. They feel entirely betrayed, as they should.

135 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:22:16pm

re: #130 justaminute

Map:
Image: map_600.jpg

They have "F" as the location where the shooting occured but I'm not sure that's accurate. The pics I've seen place it closer to where the sidewalks meet just north of there.

136 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:26:18pm

How and Why a Campus Cop at UC Davis Viciously Pepper-Sprayed a Group of Passive College Kids
[Link: reason.com...]

The picture of UC Davis Police Department Lt. John Pike strolling down the line of cowering students, casually spraying them as he walked, quickly went viral. Shortly thereafter, UC Davis promised to investigate the incident and release its findings. That report came out this week. It reveals a blatant disregard for student safety, the use of unapproved tactics and weapons by the UC Davis Police Department, and zero accountability before, during, and after the UC Davis police attempted to evict the student protesters who were camped out on the college lawn.
....
According to the report, Spicuzza had no control over her officers. “Lieutenants refused to follow directives of the Chief,” the report says. “This breakdown is illustrated by the heated exchanges between the Chief and her Lieutenants as to the scope and conduct of the operation and the Chief's apparent concession that her officers will do things their own way and there is nothing she can do about it.”

After losing the argument over tactics with her officers, Spicuzza essentially relinquished any command of the Nov. 18 raid. One officer even testified to investigators that “during the most turbulent minutes of this operation, he observed the chief standing opposite him in the crowd filming the police actions with her cell phone.”

The report (PDF): [Link: reynosoreport.ucdavis.edu...]

137 makeitstop  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:26:30pm

re: #135 RogueOne

Map:
Image: map_600.jpg

They have "F" as the location where the shooting occured but I'm not sure that's accurate. The pics I've seen place it closer to where the sidewalks meet just north of there.

That's still quite a ways from his truck. Isn't Zimmerman's story that he was checking a street sign? If so, what's he doing all the way over there on the lawn?

138 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:26:44pm

re: #120 kirkspencer

Not quite as bad as the Westboro Baptist church.

maybe.

No, they're not WBC quality. Almost no one is.

140 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:27:20pm

re: #121 RogueOne

My theory is still that Martin confronted Zimmerman but I don't think that makes him a villain of any kind. At 17 (crap, at 40!) I would have done the same thing if some asshole was watching me and then had the nerve to follow me around.

That seems like a plausible scenario to me, it's the one I think most likely. We'll see what the evidence produces.

141 kirkspencer  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:28:11pm

re: #135 RogueOne

Map:
Image: map_600.jpg

They have "F" as the location where the shooting occured but I'm not sure that's accurate. The pics I've seen place it closer to where the sidewalks meet just north of there.

I've seen it placed a few areas. However, the responding officer had to get around the building before he could see Zimmerman and Martin. If it were close to the sidewalk intersection I think he'd have seen it about the time he got out of his car. We won't know for sure, of course, until evidence gets unsealed for the trial.

142 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:28:34pm

re: #137 makeitstop

He tells the dispatcher that he was following him. It's still up in the air whether or not he stopped when she said he didn't need to be doing that. Keep in mind the distances we're talking about can be covered in seconds.

144 erik_t  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:29:15pm

re: #139 Kragar

Beck: Most People are 'In Bed with Absolute Evil' and Worshiping Baal

Baal made me cookies. Never even got a damned M&M from that Jesus fellow.

145 Kragar  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:29:18pm

Barton warns the Religious Right about the dangers of Secular Theocracy

Robison and Barton claimed that it is not the Religious Right that seeks to impose any sort of theocracy on America, but rather "secular progressives" are seeking to institute a secular theocracy because "usually whatever they accuse you of, is what they're guilty of":

146 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:29:34pm

re: #139 Kragar

Beck: Most People are 'In Bed with Absolute Evil' and Worshiping Baal

Look, my husband is a flawed human being, but I think that 'absolute evil' is getting a bit offensive.

147 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:29:54pm

re: #139 Kragar

Beck: Most People are 'In Bed with Absolute Evil' and Worshiping Baal

And I had begun to wonder who I had been in bed with and worshipping the whole time. Thanks for clearing that up, Glenn...

148 Henchman 25  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:30:06pm

re: #145 Kragar

Barton warns the Religious Right about the dangers of Secular Theocracy

Secular theocracy is an oxymoron, moron.

149 jaunte  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:30:19pm

re: #139 Kragar

Beck: Most People are 'In Bed with Absolute Evil' and Worshiping Baal

I'd like to respond to that but I'm not finished building my oval office yet.

150 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:30:31pm

re: #139 Kragar

Beck: Most People are 'In Bed with Absolute Evil' and Worshiping Baal

I'd be interested to hear him define who or what 'Ba'al' is in this case.

151 erik_t  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:30:34pm

re: #145 Kragar

Robison and Barton claimed that it is not the Religious Right that seeks to impose any sort of theocracy on America, but rather "secular progressives" are seeking to institute a secular theocracy because "usually whatever they accuse you of, is what they're guilty of":

Did... did he just come out of the closet?

152 Lidane  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:31:18pm

re: #139 Kragar

Beck: Most People are 'In Bed with Absolute Evil' and Worshiping Baal

I will be so happy when this kind of magical thinking goes away. WTF.

153 Kragar  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:31:51pm

re: #144 erik_t

Baal made me cookies. Never even got a damned M&M from that Jesus fellow.

I'll cut him some slack. He had a handful, but they all fell out the hole.

(I'm so going to hell for that.)

154 TedStriker  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:32:40pm

re: #135 RogueOne

Map:
Image: map_600.jpg

They have "F" as the location where the shooting occured but I'm not sure that's accurate. The pics I've seen place it closer to where the sidewalks meet just north of there.

Still yards and yards and yards away from either street that flanks those townhouses and from Zimmerman's vehicle. It's not as though Zimmerman just got out of his vehicle and the argument/scuffle/shooting happened right there or close to it; he actively pursued Martin between those townhouses.

If it were me, Zimmerman would never see daylight as a free man ever again.

155 makeitstop  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:32:51pm

re: #142 RogueOne

He tells the dispatcher that he was following him. It's still up in the air whether or not he stopped when she said he didn't need to be doing that. Keep in mind the distances we're talking about can be covered in seconds.

Fair point. I'm just asking questions while running through what I think would be scenarios that the prosecutors would be bringing up. Don't mind me. :)

156 Targetpractice  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:32:53pm

re: #139 Kragar

Beck: Most People are 'In Bed with Absolute Evil' and Worshiping Baal

Funny, all these years, I thought I was worshiping Cthulhu...

//

157 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:33:28pm

re: #121 RogueOne

My theory is still that Martin confronted Zimmerman but I don't think that makes him a villain of any kind. At 17 (crap, at 40!) I would have done the same thing if some asshole was watching me and then had the nerve to follow me around.

Again, I think the definition of "confronted" is relevant. Is Martin saying "why are you following me" a confrontation? In that case, then maybe Martin did "confront" Zimmerman. I suspect, however, that the prosecutor is referring to a more threatening act - in which case I see no reason to assume anything without more knowledge of the evidence.

158 allegro  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:33:47pm

re: #94 The Round Heeled Savage Cannibal Ghoul

Did someone really say that?

Someone absolutely did say that.

159 TedStriker  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:34:17pm

re: #139 Kragar

Beck: Most People are 'In Bed with Absolute Evil' and Worshiping Baal

Opportunistic douchenozzle says what?

160 justaminute  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:34:24pm

re: #135 RogueOne

Map:
Image: map_600.jpg

They have "F" as the location where the shooting occured but I'm not sure that's accurate. The pics I've seen place it closer to where the sidewalks meet just north of there.

That's where the time frame and the shooting and witness statements that go with all the timelines that were put out there. Daily Kos did the best one, because they took it from the police statements.

161 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:35:10pm

re: #157 Talking Point Detective

Again, I think the definition of "confronted" is relevant. Is Martin saying "why are you following me" a confrontation? In that case, then maybe Martin did "confront" Zimmerman. I suspect, however, that the prosecutor is referring to a more threatening act - in which case I see no reason to assume anything without more knowledge of the evidence.

Yeah. Confronted as in attacked, or something else?

162 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:36:45pm

re: #157 Talking Point Detective

You're right, "confront" might be a loaded term. I meant I think Martin "initiated the contact". His gf said she heard him say (paraphrased) "why are you following me" and Z respond with "what are you doing around here". We only have Zimmerman's word for what happened over the next 30 seconds or so.

163 kirkspencer  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:38:28pm

re: #142 RogueOne

He tells the dispatcher that he was following him. It's still up in the air whether or not he stopped when she said he didn't need to be doing that. Keep in mind the distances we're talking about can be covered in seconds.

seconds?

The short sidewalk is approximately 200 feet long. Zimmerman's car is approximately 50 feet from that sidewalk. So Zimmerman covered 250 feet in during the portion of the conversation from when he got out of the car (C on your map) till he ended his cellphone conversation (E, same map).

At a brisk march (nominal) it take ~300 steps (at a 30 inch step) to travel that distance. Using the military rate of 120 steps per minute that's about two and a half minutes.

I think I've got to quibble about the word "seconds" in your comment.

164 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:38:37pm

PIzza is here (and no one shot the delivery boy) so I can go eat. Enjoy the night folks, stay in your car.

167 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:40:21pm

re: #161 Johnny Derp

Yeah. Confronted as in attacked, or something else?

Tried to restrain? Made an accusation?

Our lack of evidence is frustrating - but it dominates my viewpoint. I have to assume that given the level of focus on this case, the prosecutor must have some evidence of "probable cause" related to the use of "confronted." But then again, there is the "ham sandwich" adage.

168 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:40:30pm

re: #163 kirkspencer

It happened 100 yards from his house. An easy 30 second jog.

169 ProBosniaLiberal  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:43:15pm

re: #139 Kragar

The hell is that?

All I hear is "Argle Fargle Blargle"

170 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:43:52pm

re: #162 RogueOne

You're right, "confront" might be a loaded term. I meant I think Martin "initiated the contact". His gf said she heard him say (paraphrased) "why are you following me" and Z respond with "what are you doing around here". We only have Zimmerman's word for what happened over the next 30 seconds or so.

But the prosecutor could be using the term with a different meaning. In fact, that is my assumption. And I think that your assumption as to the limits of available evidence may not prove correct. We only know about Zimmerman's supposed account of what happened over the next 30 seconds. The prosecutor may well have evidence we don't know about.

171 ProBosniaLiberal  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:44:44pm

re: #165 Kragar

Well, now we have something to run with in Virginia. Paint this statement across the entire VA Republican Party.

172 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:45:23pm

re: #170 Talking Point Detective

The prosecutor may well have evidence we don't know about.

Then the Prosecutor should be indicted for withholding evidence: inasmuch as this case is being tried in the media and on the Internet, we need to know what we are blogging about!

/

173 Cinnabar  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:45:58pm

re: #139 Kragar

Beck: Most People are 'In Bed with Absolute Evil' and Worshiping Baal

And I thought that smell was just a weird aftershave. Brimstone!

174 Kragar  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:45:58pm

Is Rick Santorum Now the 2016 GOP Frontrunner?

Current GOP logic would say it would be his turn next.

175 Lidane  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:46:09pm
176 Lidane  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:47:14pm

re: #174 Kragar

Is Rick Santorum Now the 2016 GOP Frontrunner?

Current GOP logic would say it would be his turn next.

That would be hilarious if true.

177 justaminute  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:47:48pm

re: #163 kirkspencer

seconds?

The short sidewalk is approximately 200 feet long. Zimmerman's car is approximately 50 feet from that sidewalk. So Zimmerman covered 250 feet in during the portion of the conversation from when he got out of the car (C on your map) till he ended his cellphone conversation (E, same map).

At a brisk march (nominal) it take ~300 steps (at a 30 inch step) to travel that distance. Using the military rate of 120 steps per minute that's about two and a half minutes.

I think I've got to quibble about the word "seconds" in your comment.

And covering that area when it is raining too. That's why quite a few people say that if he had injuries to the back of his head he could have fallen on the wet grass or sidewalk.

178 Lidane  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:48:44pm

As usual, ABL is on target:

When the story (such as it is) first broke last night on the Twitters, Hilary Rosen was a Democratic strategist. An hour later, she was an “Obama adviser.” An hour after that, she was “in the Obama Administration.” CNN contributor and Breitbart enthusiast Dana Loesch began drawing connections between Hilary Rosen and Sandra “Why Doesn’t Her Super Jewwy Boyfriend Pay for Her Contraception” Fluke. Apparently Rosen worked with (or at, or near) the PR firm that represents Sandra Fluke. PERFIDY! At the rate the wingnuts are going, by day’s end, Hilary Rosen will be Obama’s Special Ambassador to Ladyholes.

179 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:49:29pm

re: #139 Kragar

Beck: Most People are 'In Bed with Absolute Evil' and Worshiping Baal

Given how Beck, Barton et al interpret the Christian God as some kind of anti-compassion, vulture capitalist, arbitrarily-punitive demiurge, I'd say that this is just a new variant of "whatever they say about liberals, it's a projection of what they're doing."

180 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:50:54pm

re: #172 Expand Your Ground

Then the Prosecutor should be indicted for withholding evidence: inasmuch as this case is being tried in the media and on the Internet, we need to know what we are blogging about!

/

People want to blame the media. The media is a reflection of the tribalism (sorry, Obdicut) evident on both sides. Both sides are pulling hard for a particular outcome here because of how they are afraid that a different outcome might contradict their worldview.

What's interesting to me is how Martin's mother - one of the people with the most to gain or lose, in a real sense - stands above that mess so consistently.

I don't blame the media, however. I think that's a cop out (not saying that you're coping out in your comment). The media is reporting the information as it become available. The need to formulate conclusions on that insufficient evidence is not the fault of the media.

181 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:50:58pm

re: #174 Kragar

Is Rick Santorum Now the 2016 GOP Frontrunner?

Current GOP logic would say it would be his turn next.

Yes. When Mitt Romney loses (I expect he will at this point, especially as his own party base cannot generate any great enthusiasm for him), the argument will be advanced that the GOP lost because it failed to nominate a "true conservative".

And Rick is the walking, talking embodiment of that very concept.

182 celticdragon  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:51:30pm
The affidavit goes on to say that “Zimmerman disregarded the police dispatcher” who told him to stop, and “continued to follow Martin who was trying to return to his home.”

I think this vindicates my position yesterday holding that the dispatcher did, in fact, tell him to stop following Martin and that it was not merely a "meek" suggestion.

184 sean6886politik  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:55:10pm

re: #17 Killgore Trout

I've heard it played on two different media outlets and sometimes it sounds like "coons" and other times it sounds like "punks". I'm still undecided about this and I'm sure if they haven't already, they'll bring in audio experts.
In the context of this affidavit though, it shows that Zimmerman was NOT going to wait for the police this time and let another "asshole" get away with it.

185 kirkspencer  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:55:41pm

re: #168 RogueOne

It happened 100 yards from his house. An easy 30 second jog.

ah. You confused me since you were talking about zimmerman.

Yes, it's an easy jog. Except he told his girlfriend he was going to walk fast, not run. According to her public testimony Martin thought he'd lost Zimmerman and then saw him again, close enough that Zimmerman's response was heard.

Actually, walking through that in my head I'm having trouble with Zimmerman ending his phone call at the point mentioned on the map. But we'll have to wait and see what actually shows up in evidence, I guess.

186 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:57:52pm

re: #73 Kragar

But Romney said his penis is just the right length...

And Ann won't tell us how many horses she has.

COINCIDENCE??

187 sean6886politik  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:58:18pm

re: #19 allegro

I saw Zimmerman's brother last night with Piers Morgan. Couldn't count the number of times I shouted expletives at the TV for his outright lies and total contradictions. The worst part was when Morgan asked him what he'd like to say to the Martin family. The guy went on at length to talk about how the reaction to this incident had caused so much discomfort and inconvenience to HIS family and then said he hoped, "for the sake of peace" that the Martin family let it go when his brother was exonerated. It was gobsmacking in its insensitivity and narcissism.

Sounds like the entire Zimmerman family. One Son thinks he's the ultimate law, another only cares about his family and not the one that suffered the biggest loss of all and Daddy possibly had something to do with why Zimmerman was never arrested in the first place.

188 makeitstop  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 2:58:59pm

re: #182 celticdragon

I think this vindicates my position yesterday holding that the dispatcher did, in fact, tell him to stop following Martin and that it was not merely a "meek" suggestion.

I'm with you. It looks like it'll be a key piece of the case against Zimmerman.

190 makeitstop  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 3:00:46pm

re: #189 Lidane

Heh:

Fox News: Gingrich bitter we terminated his contract

As much as it pains me, I agree with Fox here. Newt's angling for another gig.

191 ProBosniaLiberal  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 3:03:58pm

re: #190 makeitstop

I don't think there is a role big enough for Newt's ego.

192 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 3:05:47pm

Yeouch. Just got the news that changing the tires & spark plugs on our 2002 Prius is going to set us back just shy of $900! $120 per tire & Iridium spark plugs are expensive. OTOH, this is the first time in nearly 11 years we had to replace the plugs, so that's not that bad. Plus 45+ mpg makes up for it these days. Just had to creeb about it a bit.

193 sean6886politik  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 3:06:03pm

re: #35 Johnny Derp

I don't tell anyone what to do. But in this world adoption may just be a more rational choice than adding more people to the 7 billion. Just saying.

I'm just trying to figure all this out. So, women should not have abortions and should have their babies but don't ask the government for any assistance when you cannot really afford that baby and if you decide to give your baby up for adoption they are just "adopted kids" not anyone's "own" kids. WTF???

194 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 3:07:24pm

re: #180 Talking Point Detective

yes, that's another good example of how using 'tribalism' doesn't actually add any clarity or explain what you mean.

195 sean6886politik  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 3:09:14pm

re: #43 HappyWarrior

What's amusing is they attempt to make Martin into a thug over one suspension from school when Zimmerman has been arrested thrice. And don't get me started on Geraldo Rivera's moronic statement about hoodies.

Wasn't Zimmerman wearing a hoodie yesterday when they were bringing him in for booking-he had something over his head. (LOL).

196 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 3:09:55pm

re: #192 William Barnett-Lewis

Yeouch. Just got the news that changing the tires & spark plugs on our 2002 Prius is going to set us back just shy of $900! $120 per tire & Iridium spark plugs are expensive. OTOH, this is the first time in nearly 11 years we had to replace the plugs, so that's not that bad. Plus 45+ mpg makes up for it these days. Just had to creeb about it a bit.

$120 per tire ain't really that bad. I just got slammed with a near $600 bill for one tire, rear brakes, and an inspection for my VW golf.

Ouch.

197 sean6886politik  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 3:13:18pm

re: #53 Charles Johnson

We'll never know for sure how many are actually guilty because the church still hides them and their dirty deeds.

198 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 3:13:59pm

re: #194 Obdicut

yes, that's another good example of how using 'tribalism' doesn't actually add any clarity or explain what you mean.

Just substitute partisan, or similar adjective, for tribalism. For me, tribalism gets the connotation I'm intending to convey across better (partisan suggests party affiliation, and what I'm referencing is a more broad type of identification) - but I note your observation.

199 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 3:18:27pm

re: #198 Talking Point Detective

Just substitute partisan, or similar adjective, for tribalism.

I think that you're also making a mistake in talking about 'both sides' wanting a certain outcome.

For me, tribalism gets the connotation I'm intending to convey across better (partisan suggests party affiliation, and what I'm referencing is a more broad type of identification) - but I note your observation.

To me, it's so broad as to be useless. I have no idea what two sides you mean. I also don't think there are two different desired outcomes. Some people 'want' Zimmerman found guilty, others 'want' to have the law applied justly even if they think the law is terrible, and they 'want' the law to be rewritten because they feel it protects people in Zimmerman's position. Other people 'want' the charges to be dropped, others 'want' Zimmerman to be found innocent, others 'want' it to be revealed that Martin actually was armed and they just found his fearsome black mans gun in the grass so Zimmerman was all great.

Reducing stuff to two sides is always silly. Then adding 'tribalism' on top of that is even sillier, to me. I do not think you are in the least bit correct that most of those who want to see Zimmerman tried and convicted are being 'tribal' or 'partisan' or anything of the sort.

200 Bubblehead II  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 3:19:11pm

re: #192 William Barnett-Lewis

Yeouch. Just got the news that changing the tires & spark plugs on our 2002 Prius is going to set us back just shy of $900! $120 per tire & Iridium spark plugs are expensive. OTOH, this is the first time in nearly 11 years we had to replace the plugs, so that's not that bad. Plus 45+ mpg makes up for it these days. Just had to creeb about it a bit.

Whaaaaaa............ Cry me a river.

Try having the following done on a 1991 Civic DX.

A. Radiator replaced, JB weld didn't quite patch the leak.
B. Exhaust system from the catalytic converter back replaced.
C. Valve job.
D. Clutch.

Total Cost? about $2,858

But then again.

A. The Wife loves the car and
B. It does get 40 MPG

You got off lucky.

My 401K? Not so well.

201 efuseakay  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 3:20:45pm

re: #192 William Barnett-Lewis

Yeouch. Just got the news that changing the tires & spark plugs on our 2002 Prius is going to set us back just shy of $900! $120 per tire & Iridium spark plugs are expensive. OTOH, this is the first time in nearly 11 years we had to replace the plugs, so that's not that bad. Plus 45+ mpg makes up for it these days. Just had to creeb about it a bit.

Surely you won't be having this all done at the dealership... I can guarantee that you can get the tires replaced at a tire shop for less... and buying the spark plugs yourself to have an independent mechanic install them will save you a good chunk of change too.

What's the tire size for your Prius?

202 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 3:29:34pm

re: #201 efuseakay

Surely you won't be having this all done at the dealership... I can guarantee that you can get the tires replaced at a tire shop for less... and buying the spark plugs yourself to have an independent mechanic install them will save you a good chunk of change too.

What's the tire size for your Prius?

P175/65R14/ 84S is what's listed in the manual. And our dealership is the cheapest place in town to get work done on the Prius. Other places don't like the high voltage circuits under the hood.

203 carver  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 3:33:54pm

re: #101 RogueOne
I seriously doubt they will be putting Georgy in the general population. If they do he won't last long

204 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 3:37:55pm

re: #199 Obdicut

I think that you're also making a mistake in talking about 'both sides' wanting a certain outcome.

So then, you must be operating on some assumptions about what I mean by "tribalism." Which seems to contradict your next statements.

I also don't think there are two different desired outcomes.

Fair point. There are more than two specific desired outcomes. But it is certainly striking how depending which website you visit, or radio show you listen to, or TV show you watch, or the broad ideological/political orientation of the writer of the blog comment you read, you can see a roughly defined binary distinction w/r/t overall view on the issue.

Again, this goes back to well-established literature on how identify (social, cultural, and/or political) largely drive how people reason in the face of controversy - in particular on issues that have so much overlap with political/social/cultural issues. There is a lot of literature that suggests that these orientations largely drive how humans reason.

Some people 'want' Zimmerman found guilty, others 'want' to have the law applied justly even if they think the law is terrible, and they 'want' the law to be rewritten because they feel it protects people in Zimmerman's position. Other people 'want' the charges to be dropped, others 'want' Zimmerman to be found innocent, others 'want' it to be revealed that Martin actually was armed and they just found his fearsome black mans gun in the grass so Zimmerman was all great.

No doubt. And others want, desperately, for the evidence to fall out towards a narrative of the events that I think reflects a largely binary political orientation w/r/t racial issues. On the one side, they're looking for the evidence to support the view that racial inequality is still a very significant problem in this country, or that Republicans pass bad laws at the behest of the NRA. In other words, a largely left perspective.

On the other side, they're looking for the evidence to support the view that blacks are "playing the race card," are "race-baiting," are seeking to perpetuate a bogus sense of victimhood, etc. In other words, a largely right perspective.

Of course there's a lot of nuance there - but I don't see how someone can look at the diametrically opposed views largely held on the different sides of the political spectrum and not see a largely tribal phenomenon. Of course other significant patterns emerge - say the difference, generally, in the views of blacks and whites on these tyhpes of issues.

Reducing stuff to two sides is always silly. Then adding 'tribalism' on top of that is even sillier, to me. I do not think you are in the least bit correct that most of those who want to see Zimmerman tried and convicted are being 'tribal' or 'partisan' or anything of the sort.

I think that a non-tribal view would essentially be one that simply wants the facts to win out. Martin's mom is a very good example of that. When I see people firmly convinced of how to interpret highly ambiguous data - as I've seen all over w/r/t this case, I see something that suggests tribalism to me.

Anyway, so now you know more about my views. I'm going to leave this here.

205 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 3:38:36pm

re: #200 Bubblehead II

Whaaa... Cry me a river.

Try having the following done on a 1991 Civic DX.

A. Radiator replaced, JB weld didn't quite patch the leak.
B. Exhaust system from the catalytic converter back replaced.
C. Valve job.
D. Clutch.

Total Cost? about $2,858

But then again.

A. The Wife loves the car and
B. It does get 40 MPG

You got off lucky.

My 401K? Not so well.

Condolences.

206 sean6886politik  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 3:40:50pm

re: #84 RogueOne

I more surprised that Zimmerman didn't ask for a bail hearing. He's willing to spend 2 months in jail waiting? I don't understand that "strategery".

I believe his lawyer said this morning that he wants a bail hearing but they were going to wait until some of the craziness dies down. If he's out on bail he's in hiding. Maybe jail is safer in his case.

207 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 3:45:49pm

re: #204 Talking Point Detective

Well, one more note - because I don't think I expressed it clearly.

I am not presuming a tribal orientation for any particular person involved - but see it applicable as a general phenomenon w/r/t this issue among many others.

208 Decatur Deb  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 3:47:18pm

re: #202 William Barnett-Lewis

P175/65R14/ 84S is what's listed in the manual. And our dealership is the cheapest place in town to get work done on the Prius. Other places don't like the high voltage circuits under the hood.

Unless it's a masterpiece of modern automotive engineering, changing spark plug=changing light bulb.

209 SpaceJesus  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 3:49:21pm

Freep on the same story:

To: Free ThinkerNY

After watching thousands of episodes of Cops every one of which has at least one black youth running from the cops I can attest that black youth can run and fast. So why didn’t Treyvon run he could have easily run away. Instead he chose to return to the area where Zimmerman was and confront him. It is very clear from Zimmermans conversation with the police dispatcher that he had lost sight of Treyvon and he was agreeing with the dispatcher on a place to meet soon to be arriving police officers. That being said all Zimmerman had to do was wait that is until he was attacked then it became a matter of self defense. I say Zimmerman Is Innocent.

24 posted on Thursday, April 12, 2012 12:32:25 PM by cquiggy

210 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 3:50:12pm

re: #204 Talking Point Detective

So then, you must be operating on some assumptions about what I mean by "tribalism." Which seems to contradict your next statements.

No, that doesn't follow at all.

Of course there's a lot of nuance there - but I don't see how someone can look at the diametrically opposed views largely held on the different sides of the political spectrum and not see a largely tribal phenomenon.

Mainly because it in no way resembles a tribal phenomenon.

211 Mentis Fugit  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 3:50:46pm
212 kirkspencer  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 3:54:08pm

I'm seeing $20 per plug as the most expensive prius iridium plug I can find. Are you really getting stuck for $400 for plugs?

213 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 4:05:09pm

re: #204 Talking Point Detective

Of course there's a lot of nuance there - but I don't see how someone can look at the diametrically opposed views largely held on the different sides of the political spectrum and not see a largely tribal phenomenon. Of course other significant patterns emerge - say the difference, generally, in the views of blacks and whites on these tyhpes of issues.

'Tribal' is not a very good word for describing binary phenomena.

The Tribal Leaders Directory provides a tribes’ name, address, phone, and fax number for each of the 565 Federally-recognized Tribes.

Aside from that, I've never liked the term's use in politics because it's too close to attributing human behavior to genes. Which is bogus, IMHO.

214 Bubblehead II  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 4:11:35pm

re: #205 Talking Point Detective

You do what you got to do. The fall back vehicle, fill the oil and then check the gas. Life sucks.

215 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 4:13:12pm

re: #213 wrenchwench

'Tribal' is not a very good word for describing binary phenomena.

What I don't know of is (what seems to me at least to be) a better term.

I'm open to suggestions - for the points Obdicut and you make, among others (other points and other commenters).

I use it fairly interchangeably with partisan - which also has its strengths and weaknesses. I respect that some others find it problematic - but it still works (generally) best for me. My main concern is that people get the gist of my meaning, and in my experience, the vast majority of people do.

216 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 4:15:13pm

re: #214 Bubblehead II

You do what you got to do. The fall back vehicle, fill the oil and then check the gas. Life sucks.

I really respect people who wean themselves off of reliance on money pits cars.

217 Bubblehead II  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 4:26:40pm

re: #216 Talking Point Detective

I really respect people who wean themselves off of reliance on money pits cars.

That's why we have a couple of these.

Working on a trailer system along the lines of of a "kid" trailer. Just have to figure out how connect it.

But for long haul, neither meets the need.

218 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 4:36:13pm

re: #217 Bubblehead II

That's why we have a couple of these.

.

One of these days I'm going to trade in for a Vespa.

219 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 4:57:07pm

re: #208 Decatur Deb

Unless it's a masterpiece of modern automotive engineering, changing spark plug=changing light bulb.

Masterpiece. You have to partially pull the engine to replace the plugs.

220 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 4:58:31pm

re: #212 kirkspencer

I'm seeing $20 per plug as the most expensive prius iridium plug I can find. Are you really getting stuck for $400 for plugs?

Labor. You have to pull the engine half way out of the chassis to change the plugs. Which is why I'm glad this is the first time in 11 years we've needed to!

221 Bubblehead II  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 5:04:25pm

re: #218 Talking Point Detective

One of these days I'm going to trade in for a Vespa.

Make sure you know what your State's (Cubic Inch) requirement are. In Idaho, 70 is the minimum. That is why we went electric.

222 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 5:20:54pm

re: #215 Talking Point Detective

What I don't know of is (what seems to me at least to be) a better term.

Well, what are you trying to express by it? It's really unclear.

I use it fairly interchangeably with partisan - which also has its strengths and weaknesses

If you use it interchangeably, why not use partisan? It's not very good, but at least it isn't totally inaccurate the way 'tribal' is.

My main concern is that people get the gist of my meaning, and in my experience, the vast majority of people do.

I don't think they do, actually. or rather, I don't think there's a meaning there to be gotten. I don't think you're describing something real.

If what you're trying to say is that people view the Trayvon case a certain way because they're part of a certain group, I don't think you're right at all. Still, even if that is what you meant, it wouldn't be 'tribal'.

Let me put it this way: Would you say the way that blacks are viewing the Trayvon case is 'tribal'?

223 jc717  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 5:49:52pm

re: #139 Kragar

Beck: Most People are 'In Bed with Absolute Evil' and Worshiping Baal

I prefer.... you guessed it... Molach, the Babylonian god of Fire ;)

224 CSUH2001  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 6:01:01pm

I saw somewhere in the last 48 hours that forensic experts, judging trajectory angles, etc. have placed Trayvon Martin on his knees and GZ approximately 4 feet away from TM when he pulled the trigger. I have been told, although I have no personal experience with this, that black kids in their teens are most dangerous when they are on their knees. But, then, aren't we all!

This was posted on huffington post. Did this poster just throw this out there? I can find no evidence.

225 CSUH2001  Thu, Apr 12, 2012 6:01:51pm

re: #224 CSUH2001

I saw somewhere in the last 48 hours that forensic experts, judging trajectory angles, etc. have placed Trayvon Martin on his knees and GZ approximately 4 feet away from TM when he pulled the trigger. I have been told, although I have no personal experience with this, that black kids in their teens are most dangerous when they are on their knees. But, then, aren't we all!

This was posted on huffington post. Did this poster just throw this out there? I can find no evidence.

Okay I read it again, it sounds sarcastic

226 Jimmah  Fri, Apr 13, 2012 2:54:57am

re: #225 CSUH2001

Okay I read it again, it sounds sarcastic

I don't suppose you'd mind telling us what your nick was when you posted here before, "long time lurker"?

227 Poiks  Fri, Apr 13, 2012 2:26:26pm

re: #82 justaminute

I just don't know why anyone gives any credence to the "self defense" claim when he sought out the situation.

It can only be explained within the context of race, in which a white man has the right to ask a black man "what are you doing around here?", and the black man is expected to answer him. If you reverse the races of those involved in this story, the same people defending the white vigilante now would instead be defending the white victim's right to do what Martin may well have done: Tell him it's none of his f*cking business.

I don't dismiss the possibility that Martin got angry, and maybe even got in Zimmerman's face about it. Being treated like a suspect everywhere you go can get pretty infuriating. This is among the many good reasons why Zimmerman should have sat his fake-cop ass in his vehicle and left police work to the police.


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