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1 jaunte  Fri, Apr 13, 2012 10:14:32pm

Forecasters say storms expected to hit middle of country Saturday may be ‘life threatening’

This weekend’s outbreak could be a “high-end, life threatening event,” the center said.

The strongly worded message came after the National Weather Service announced last month that it would start using terms like “mass devastation,” ‘’unsurvivable” and “catastrophic” in warnings in an effort to get more people to take heed. It said it would test the new warnings in Kansas and Missouri before deciding whether to expand them to other parts of the country.

2 freetoken  Fri, Apr 13, 2012 10:19:51pm

re: #1 jaunte

SPC forecast:
[Link: www.spc.noaa.gov...]


The hatched areas indicate likely tornado areas, which in this case for the 4th covers most of the traditional "tornado alley"

3 freetoken  Fri, Apr 13, 2012 11:02:39pm
4 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Apr 13, 2012 11:08:04pm

I didn't see today's tornado. :(

5 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Apr 13, 2012 11:15:46pm

re: #4 ProGunLiberal

And that is a GOOD THING!

6 Digital Display  Fri, Apr 13, 2012 11:39:05pm

re: #4 ProGunLiberal

I didn't see today's tornado. :(

Don't worry..There will be plenty Saturday around the 'hood..Be safe. I'm going shopping in the AM.. Hell breaks out at 4pm.
So PGL..why in the world did you think going to College in Tornado Alley would be a good idea? I know it's a pricey college and all.. I would have suggested USC or Florida.
*wink*

7 dragonath  Fri, Apr 13, 2012 11:39:26pm

Heh, the Catholic League is complaining about the Three Stooges movie and waxing nostalgic about the Hays Office.

8 Digital Display  Fri, Apr 13, 2012 11:52:01pm

Q2 is over at Formula one at China live..So we are on break..I love F1 and love staying up late at night watching it

9 freetoken  Fri, Apr 13, 2012 11:54:04pm

re: #7 Beware the Green Dragon!

What? You mean nuns aren't supposed to dress like this?

10 freetoken  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 12:09:59am
11 freetoken  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 1:11:25am

Stan Getz in an interesting piece that mixes some different musical feelings, sort of a bluesy classical combo, "Her", from 1961:

12 researchok  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 1:18:08am

Morning, all

13 researchok  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 1:25:01am

re: #11 freetoken

Stan Getz in an interesting piece that mixes some different musical feelings, sort of a bluesy classical combo, "Her", from 1961:

[Embedded content]

That was very good.

14 researchok  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 1:33:44am

re: #3 freetoken

Another good choice.

TY

15 dragonath  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 2:27:56am
16 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 3:28:15am

Good Morning Honcos!

17 Dizzy  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 3:47:26am

Can someone tell me what type of guitar Don Ross is playing? And what is the tuning for the asymmetrical fretting?

Remarkable!

18 freetoken  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 4:11:31am

Today's tornado probabilities for south central Nebraska look rather ominous:

Image: day1probotlk_1200_torn.gif

19 Flounder  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 5:02:56am

re: #17 Dizzy

No, but that pickup is an eyesore. He prolly payed a lotta money for that there guitar! //[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Actually, thankyou Charles, a really great musical choice this morning.
Good Morning!
I need more cowbell!!

20 Flounder  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 5:18:27am

Transgender series wins a top reporting award from Sigma Delta Chi


Read more: [Link: www.timesunion.com...]

[Link: www.timesunion.com...]

Great series about Drew, and his parental support is inspirational.
There is a lot more info there. One of the links in the article is bad, you just have to remove the /. at the end.

21 RogueOne  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 5:20:25am

Vietnam finally invades U.S., gains beachhead in MT:

Vietnam man buys little piece of American dream
[Link: hosted.ap.org...]

HANOI, Vietnam (AP) -- Vietnamese businessman Pham Dinh Nguyen flew to the U.S. for the first time, drove to a tiny, frigid trading outpost and bought his own piece of the American dream: Buford, Wyoming - population 1.

Wyoming wanting its own aircraft carrier is starting to make some sense now.

22 Stoatly  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 5:24:10am

re: #17 Dizzy

Can someone tell me what type of guitar Don Ross is playing?

A Marc Beneteau?

On a different tack...

23 Amory Blaine  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 5:24:41am

re: #21 RogueOne

Geez. What will these wingnuts do next.

24 Amory Blaine  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 5:25:49am

re: #22 Stoatly

Love the slanted frets.

25 RogueOne  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 5:58:03am

Not to rehash the whole Zimmerman case again but I was wondering why he didn't ask for a bond hearing. Here's my answer:

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

Sanford, Florida (CNN) -- George Zimmerman's newly hired attorney told CNN's "AC360" on Friday that he didn't initially seek bond for his client because he first needed more time to become familiar with the case.

Mark O'Mara took on the case Wednesday, the same day Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer, was charged with second-degree murder in the February 26 shooting death of Trayvon Martin in Sanford.

A bond hearing has been tentatively scheduled to begin at 9 a.m. April 20, O'Mara said.

His bond hearing is on 4/20. I thought that was a holiday in florida.

26 RogueOne  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 5:58:59am

re: #23 Amory Blaine

Geez. What will these wingnuts do next.

I don't think you're taking this invasion seriously enough. It's an election year man!

27 sattv4u2  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:03:15am

re: #26 RogueOne

I don't think you're taking this invasion seriously enough. It's an election year man!

couldn't we negotiate with them ,,, say,,, give them Manhattan Island if they promise to stop all hostilities!?!?!?

//

28 William of Orange  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:11:38am

I can't believe this didn't make any headlines in the US. I found this in an Australian newspaper!

US chief swims in millions as unemployed sink deeper

AT SOME point in the future, historians will look back at this era as the time when America basically lost its collective mind.

The latest example is Ted Kelly, the recently retired chief executive officer of Boston's Liberty Mutual insurance company. Ask any official or business person across the state, and they'll sing Ted Kelly's praises: good guy, insanely smart, devoted to the common cause, all of that manifest in that Liberty Mutual grew at breakneck speed under his leadership and gave millions of dollars away.

There's something else, though, that came out this week. Mr Kelly had an annual compensation package of $US50 million for the past four years. Yes, there's a zero after the 5. That's just shy of a million dollars a week, $192,000 per working day, $24,000 an hour. To run an insurance company.

It calls to mind an anecdote in an award-winning Washington Post series last year. A newly promoted chief executive of Dean Foods got a pay package in the 1970s equal to $US1 million in current dollars, plus a Cadillac. He moved from a three-bedroom house into a four and joined the local country club. He declined future raises because he thought it would be bad for company morale.

It's not apparent that Mr Kelly had those same reservations. As a result, every Liberty Mutual policyholder, all those regular people making ends meet at kitchen tables, have paid for Mr Kelly to take $200 million out of the company, their company, over the past four years.

Every Massachusetts taxpayer is footing part of his salary, given that the state granted Kelly's company a $46.5 million tax break for a new headquarters in Boston. The whole thing is grotesque.

This is not a screed against the rich. There are precious few people who don't want to be part of that group. But there should be at least some rhyme or reason to who makes what. You're an entrepreneur, inventor, someone who founded a business taking enormous risk, you deserve what the open market will pay.

This is sickening! Obscene!!

And:

This isn't fair market value; it's a rigged game: executives hurling bundles of money at each other, then using the raises as benchmarks. Is there a synonym here for grotesque?

Read the rest here.

29 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:28:33am

re: #17 Dizzy

Can someone tell me what type of guitar Don Ross is playing? And what is the tuning for the asymmetrical fretting?

Remarkable!

I don't know if it's what Don Ross uses, but the criminally underrated California Guitar Trio used to use fan-fret guitars made by Ervin Somogyi. It's apparently very friendly to New Standard Tuning (bottom to top: CGDAEG). According to Paul Richards, they stopped using the guitars on tour because they were very sensitive to the wild changes in humidity and barometric pressure that one can expect to experience as one travels from Utah to Moscow.

As you may know, it's literally impossible to tune a guitar correctly -- a chord shape that's perfectly in tune at the 5th fret will be horribly out of tune an octave higher at the 17th fret. Lots of luthiers have put tons of sadly unheralded work into mitigating this problem (Buzz Feiten, et al). The tuning of instruments is actually a pretty big problem in music. Even Bach put together a collection of compositions with the problem in mind, called "The Well-Tempered Clavier".

edited because who cares.

30 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:35:32am

Missed this: turns out Tom Owen, the expert cited to prove that it was not Zimmerman who screamed, also thinks that GZ said "punks":

[Link: articles.cnn.com...]

Forensic audio expert Tom Owen, who analyzed 911 recordings, agreed the garbled word that raised controversy was "punks," not the racial slur some people said they heard.

When Owen, chairman emeritus of the American Board of Recorded Evidence, used a computer application to remove cell phone interference, the word became clearer, he said. After discussions with linguists, he said he became convinced that Zimmerman said "punks."

He provided CNN with a copy of the newly processed audio.

CNN also enhanced the sound of the 911 call, and several members of CNN's editorial staff repeatedly reviewed the tape but could reach no consensus on whether Zimmerman used a slur.

So every guy with audio enhancement software hears his own thing. "Coons", "cold", now "punks". That's why I thought the claims of enhancement were dubious from the start and had more to do with fetishization of computers, forgetting about the "garbage in, garbage out" principle. Also, yes, turns out those innocuous filters cleaning up noise do change things enough to change the interpretation of a whole word.

31 Lidane  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:36:06am

re: #17 Dizzy

Can someone tell me what type of guitar Don Ross is playing? And what is the tuning for the asymmetrical fretting?

Remarkable!

Wiki says:

Don Ross played a Lowden S-10 in the beginning of his career, but since 1997 has played a Lowden O-10. Today he plays custom-made guitars by Marc Beneteau, a Canadian luthier from St. Thomas, Ontario. The Beneteaus are equipped with a combination of microphone and K&K pickups. Occasionally he plays a baritone guitar by Marc Beneteau, or uses a custom 7-string by Oskar Graf, a luthier from Clarendon, Ontario.

32 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:39:22am

re: #28 William of Orange

What business section here would want to print that? Such sections of newspapers depend on access to companies to allow them to write attention-grabbing stories. Which means that a story on executive compensation that causes a company to be the recipient of an 'Occupy' sit-in may earn a newspaper's business section plaudits and readers in the short term, but in the long term will result in that company (and likely many others) closing off access to that newspaper. And the loss of that access would leave them hard-pressed to maintain their content quality.

Remember, newspapers are businesses and like most businesses they try not to bite the hand that feeds them. The 'public's right to know' and the 'watchdog role of the media' get thrown aside when cash flow is at risk.

33 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:40:32am

re: #30 Adam, Eve and Steve

Missed this: turns out Tom Owen, the expert cited to prove that it was not Zimmerman who screamed, also thinks that GZ said "punks":

So every guy with audio enhancement software hears his own thing. "Coons", "cold", now "punks". That's why I thought the claims of enhancement were dubious from the start and had more to do with fetishization of computers, forgetting about the "garbage in, garbage out" principle. Also, yes, turns out those innocuous filters cleaning up noise do change things enough to change the interpretation of a whole word.

I know that there's a lot of "noise," but there is software that shows specific digital signals for specific phonemes. It should only be a matter of what people "hear" after they've cleaned out the noise.

I'm surprised that we haven't seen any such analysis.

34 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:41:35am

re: #30 Adam, Eve and Steve

Missed this: turns out Tom Owen, the expert cited to prove that it was not Zimmerman who screamed, also thinks that GZ said "punks":

So every guy with audio enhancement software hears his own thing. "Coons", "cold", now "punks". That's why I thought the claims of enhancement were dubious from the start and had more to do with fetishization of computers, forgetting about the "garbage in, garbage out" principle. Also, yes, turns out those innocuous filters cleaning up noise do change things enough to change the interpretation of a whole word.

Well, if it can't be clearly established what Zimmerman said, then that part of the tape likely won't be usable at trial. The defense will claim it to be inflammatory, and if its not really clear what he said I'd have to agree.

35 RogueOne  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:43:00am

re: #34 Dark_Falcon

The prosecutor has already claimed he said "punks". Too late to change their minds now.

36 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:45:16am

re: #34 Dark_Falcon

Well, if it can't be clearly established what Zimmerman said, then that part of the tape likely won't be usable at trial. The defense will claim it to be inflammatory, and if its not really clear what he said I'd have to agree.

Both the police affidavit and the defense agree it's "punks", so I don't foresee much of a controversy here.

37 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:46:53am

re: #33 Talking Point Detective

I know that there's a lot of "noise," but there is software that shows specific digital signals for specific phonemes. It should only be a matter of what people "hear" after they've cleaned out the noise.

I'm surprised that we haven't seen any such analysis.

More likely the signal is truly ambiguous and not fully recoverable.

38 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:47:14am

Post in error and deleted.

39 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:47:53am

re: #38 Dark_Falcon

The probable cause affidavit filed in court says "punks".

40 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:49:40am

re: #39 Adam, Eve and Steve

The probable cause affidavit filed in court says "punks".

#38 went up before I saw your #36. Having seen your post, I deleted mine.

41 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:50:28am

re: #40 Dark_Falcon

No biggie.

42 Gus  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:50:34am

Gun boat diplomacy. Ergo, State should emulate the Pentagon. PNAC. Bush Doctrine. Etc.

//End secret message to Sergey.

43 darthstar  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:51:20am

Morning jurists...I see we're all applying our years of legal education under the tutelage of Perry Mason and Matlock, so a full courtroom confession from Zimmerman's girlfriend's husband should be here after the next commercial break.

As far as the tape of Zimmeman's 911 call goes, the most damning part of that is that it documents him stalking Trayvon Martin. SYG goes out the door at that point.

44 sattv4u2  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:51:24am

re: #36 Adam, Eve and Steve

Both the police affidavit and the defense agree it's "punks", so I don't foresee much of a controversy here.

Yeah ,,,well wait till the lawyers for the Punk Culture Society get a hold of it !!
//

45 Gus  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:51:39am

Robin Gibb of the Bee Gees is in a coma.

47 RogueOne  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:52:59am

re: #42 Gus

Gun boat diplomacy. Ergo, State should emulate the Pentagon. PNAC. Bush Doctrine. Etc.

//End secret message to Sergey.

I was just thinking we need a private way to message people. I wanted to tease sergey about his "no biggie" comment without cluttering up the thread.

48 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:53:10am

re: #43 darthstar

Now that's getting to the bits with far less doubt.

49 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:54:09am

re: #42 Gus

Gun boat diplomacy. Ergo, State should emulate the Pentagon. PNAC. Bush Doctrine. Etc.

//End secret message to Sergey.

I can't take anyone seriously who was an advisor to McCain-Palin (Palin! PALIN!) campaign and didn't pay their penance.

50 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:55:15am

re: #47 RogueOne

I was just thinking we need a private way to message people. I wanted to tease sergey about his "no biggie" comment without cluttering up the thread.

Should I make my nick blue so you can send me condolences? /

51 Gus  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:55:35am

re: #49 Adam, Eve and Steve

I can't take anyone seriously who was an advisor to Mc-Cain-Palin (Palin! PALIN!) campaign and didn't pay their penance.

Yeah. You have to admit though at least FP does mix things up. As for that piece? The usual gunboat mentality.

52 Gus  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:55:58am
53 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:56:39am

But don't even think of sending enlargement spam.

(That was a secret message to Rogue.)

54 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 7:56:54am

re: #37 Adam, Eve and Steve

More likely the signal is truly ambiguous and not fully recoverable.

Well - if we can listen to an audio recording, it can be run through a program that generates a shape on a screen based on the specific characteristics of the audio signal.

It may be that the shapes it creates don't match the characteristic of specific phonemes - I suspect that would be the case - and so don't clear up the ambiguity, but I'm surprised we haven't seen that done. Maybe they have done it, but what I've sen so far is a video clip of some guy "listening" to a cleaned up analog audio recording and telling us what he thinks he hears.

55 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:00:10am

re: #42 Gus

Gun boat diplomacy. Ergo, State should emulate the Pentagon. PNAC. Bush Doctrine. Etc.

//End secret message to Sergey.

Now what are you up to?

56 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:01:44am

re: #43 darthstar

...the most damning part of that is that it documents him stalking Trayvon Martin. SYG goes out the door at that point.

Despite the wishful thinking of many a libertarian, that supposition doesn't fit with what I've seen. It seems there will be a hearing w/r/t SYG - and my guess is that the judge will decide on whether there's evidence that Zimmerman provoked a physical confrontation, that his claims of injuries don't fit with the facts, that there's evidence of Martin calling for help not him, etc.

The fact that Zimmerman followed Martin does not disallow an SYG defense, IMO.

57 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:02:06am

re: #51 Gus

Yeah. You have to admit though at least FP does mix things up. As for that piece? The usual gunboat mentality.

Could someone please post a link to the article in question so that I may join the conversation? Having people sending 'secret messages' like this back and forth on a thread like this makes me feel excluded without cause.

58 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:03:20am

I was wondering about an interesting point Rogue made recently: that assuming for the sake of the argument that GZ's story is true and he was pinned by TM to the ground, SYG apparently shouldn't apply: it was not the case of where GZ could have chosen to stand his ground, since he couldn't have chosen to retreat from his forced position. I.e. it would be a case of pure alleged self-defense. I don't know if it works as simply as that, but this leads to all sorts of strange conclusions.

59 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:03:22am

re: #38 Dark_Falcon

If Zimmerman opts for a jury trial, that is. The facts being what they are and emotions running as high as they are, I wonder if he might not be better opting for a bench trial.

That would be an interesting choice. Now that he has a competent attorney on retainer it'll be interesting to see what happens and who they hire as their defense experts.

60 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:03:57am

re: #57 Dark_Falcon

Could someone please post a link to the article in question so that I may join the conversation? Having people sending 'secret messages' like this back and forth on a thread like this makes me feel excluded without cause.

I will file the probable cause affidavit in court later today. //

61 RogueOne  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:04:18am

re: #53 Adam, Eve and Steve

But don't even think of sending enlargement spam.

(That was a secret message to Rogue.)

That would have been a brilliant idea! What did you say your email address was?

62 Gus  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:05:13am

Copy that.

63 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:05:48am

Tango down.

64 Gus  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:06:39am

re: #57 Dark_Falcon

Could someone please post a link to the article in question so that I may join the conversation? Having people sending 'secret messages' like this back and forth on a thread like this makes me feel excluded without cause.

FP = Foreign Policy. You already left a comment on that page. State like the Pentagon should have also been another clue.

65 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:08:12am

re: #58 Adam, Eve and Steve

I was wondering about an interesting point Rogue made recently: that assuming for the sake of the argument that GZ's story is true and he was pinned by TM to the ground, SYG apparently shouldn't apply: it was not the case of where GZ could have chosen to stand his ground, since he couldn't have chosen to retreat from his forced position. I.e. it would be a case of pure alleged self-defense. I don't know if it works as simply as that, but this leads to all sorts of strange conclusions.

As I see it, SYG may still apply in that situation as the previous standard is that he should have taken steps earlier to avoid a violent confrontation - say retreated from Martin as Martin approached him, gotten into his car, etc. Further, the previous standard would be that deadly force is a last resort - SYG seems to change that calculus as well. There is a "meet force with force" reference, but it isn't specific about a requirement of proportionality (despite the claim by the bill's sponsor that SYG stipulates proportionality).

66 darthstar  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:10:02am

re: #56 Talking Point Detective

The fact that Zimmerman followed Martin does not disallow an SYG defense, IMO.

I've known a number of Zimmermans personally, growing up in rural Northern California. They take their neighborhood watch, mall security, apartment night watch shit seriously. Each of the people I knew who was an un-armed security guard kept a gun in his car "just in case something big went down and he had to help the police."

67 RogueOne  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:10:14am

re: #59 William Barnett-Lewis

That would be an interesting choice. Now that he has a competent attorney on retainer it'll be interesting to see what happens and who they hire as their defense experts.

I thought I read that there will, eventually, be a ruling by a judge which will decide on the validity of the self-defense argument and determine whether it even goes to trial? If that's the case, I don't think it would make sense for him to ask for a trial by judge if they've already said they aren't convinced he was acting in self-defense.

68 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:10:16am

- .... .. ... .. ... ..-. ..- -. .-.-.-

69 darthstar  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:13:38am

re: #67 RogueOne

His best chance of getting out of prison soon is to plea out to a lesser charge (involuntary manslaughter) and take a 3-5 year sentence with parole in 2.

70 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:14:06am

re: #66 darthstar

I've known a number of Zimmermans personally, growing up in rural Northern California. They take their neighborhood watch, mall security, apartment night watch shit seriously. Each of the people I knew who was an un-armed security guard kept a gun in his car "just in case something big went down and he had to help the police."

Maybe - but Zimmerman broke a number of basic principles of official neighborhood watch practice: being armed, getting out of his car, not being on the phone with other members of his organization, being alone.

I have to wonder if he was ever even trained by any kind of registered neighborhood watch program. Have you read anything about his affiliation with a specific neighborhood watch group? I heard interviews with neighborhood watch people who are pretty quick to denounce Zimmerman's actions as being completely inconsistent with their practices.

71 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:16:45am

re: #67 RogueOne

I thought I read that there will, eventually, be a ruling by a judge which will decide on the validity of the self-defense argument and determine whether it even goes to trial?

I read that there will likely be such a hearing, not that it is a certainty.

72 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:17:47am

re: #64 Gus

FP = Foreign Policy. You already left a comment on that page. State like the Pentagon should have also been another clue.

Yes, but that article isn't advocating 'gunboat diplomacy'. What it is saying is that the Department of State (DoS) is not performing at the level it would need to be at to take over much of the Reconstruction & Stabilization (R&S) tasks it seeks to assume (tasks the DoD would to a large extent like to hand over, too). It's saying for the DoS to act like the military, but instead that to take over function from the military it must be able to perform them close-to-equally well.

73 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:17:48am

re: #65 Talking Point Detective

I looked at a few instances of case law and that's no help. Sometimes SYG is taken just ridiculously broadly, sometimes it's not. One could cherry pick either way, I lack the time to database then all and work up the stats. Supreme court precedent shows a kind of SYG, that is to say no obligation to retreat. At your home, on your land and at work.

So is a gated community still on "your land"? If so the defense attorney might go for the older precedent too. If inside the community is the same as a public street that would not apply of course.

Would we agree the better interpretation of SYG would not cover a situation where the alleged defender deliberately went to the assailant?

Of course we still have a huge disproportion of force. Which should also be a major consideration.

74 darthstar  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:20:19am

re: #70 Talking Point Detective

I have to wonder if he was ever even trained by any kind of registered neighborhood watch program. Have you read anything about his affiliation with a specific neighborhood watch group? I heard interviews with neighborhood watch people who are pretty quick to denounce Zimmerman's actions as being completely inconsistent with their practices.

I agree 100% here...I don't doubt that he attended the police sponsored training he helped initiate, but he's the kind of guy who goes through training thinking, Yeah, but I still want a gun just in case a couple of boatloads of Cuban terrorists beach themselves near the subdivision.

75 darthstar  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:22:50am

re: #73 Daniel Ballard

There have been SYG cases where two thugs shot it out and the survivor was let go because of SYG. ALEC, who wrote the SYG laws for most states at the request of the gun lobby, made it so broad that it doesn't prohibit SYG defense even when the person was perpetrating a crime.

76 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:25:11am

I'm seeing a bit of this stuff floating around this morning...
Strength of case against Zimmerman questioned

Trial lawyer Richard Hornsby has litigated 15 "Stand Your Ground" cases - none of them homicides - and won them all.

Hornsby told CBS News he thinks Corey's affidavit is more significant for what it leaves out than for what it includes.

"The moment George Zimmerman fired that shot is the key question in this entire case," Hornsby said. "Did he reasonably believe he had to fire that shot to defend himself? And the fact (Corey) completely left that out, begs the question, does she not have any evidence to refute his version of the events?"

77 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:25:45am

re: #65 Talking Point Detective

As I see it, SYG may still apply in that situation as the previous standard is that he should have taken steps earlier to avoid a violent confrontation - say retreated from Martin as Martin approached him, gotten into his car, etc. Further, the previous standard would be that deadly force is a last resort - SYG seems to change that calculus as well. There is a "meet force with force" reference, but it isn't specific about a requirement of proportionality (despite the claim by the bill's sponsor that SYG stipulates proportionality).

The SYG ground law does address proportionality, in that it requires a reasonable fear of death or severe bodily harm before deadly force can be used. What a 'reasonable fear' is is not closely defined, as it can vary from case to case. At 6'4" and heavily built, I could not legitimately claim a reasonable fear against a small man of 5'3", even if he punched me in the gut. The small man, however, might well be able to make such a claim as it relates to me, though, due to the size and strength disparity.

78 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:25:47am

What's the best single resource out there that keeps a timeline and links to the developments in this case? Aside from wikipedia ;)

79 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:26:10am

re: #70 Talking Point Detective

For what it's worth every gun/defense trainer I have talked to is basically realizing GZ is a screaming example of what not to do. Top to bottom. You know what I think of SYG in this instance.

The larger issues beyond GZ loom.
One story I am trying to track down (call it unconfirmed) is that of a woman in California that was attacked in her sleep and was being raped. She grabbed gun from under the bed and shot the attacker. He took a hit, and was fleeing the house when she shot him again. The police did not arrest her, but later the DA filed charges.

This sparks a larger defensive question-Is it reasonable to expect a violently raped woman to stay so clear headed as to hold her fire the instant the attacker turns his back? It's what the law requires. IMO that's asking too much of the victim.

80 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:26:45am

Good morning lizards.

81 sattv4u2  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:27:29am

re: #76 Killgore Trout

does she not have any evidence to refute his version of the events?"

Could be why she didn't go to the grand jury seeking 1st degree

File 2nd degree and allow a plea down to manslaughter

She gets a 'conviction" and GZ isn't put away for decades

82 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:28:17am

re: #76 Killgore Trout

I'm seeing a bit of this stuff floating around this morning...
Strength of case against Zimmerman questioned

Yeah, that's kinda the elephant in the room, and the only chance the case has is if they have a stack of (evidentiary) aces up their sleeves. I don't see a reason to question it at present. But they better be there.

83 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:28:57am

re: #73 Daniel Ballard

Would we agree the better interpretation of SYG would not cover a situation where the alleged defender deliberately went to the assailant?

.

My particular point of interest is how many conservatives assume that's the case, in an attempt to justify SYG laws, without realizing that SYG is inherently ambiguous in that regard.

It's wishful thinking. They, themselves, think that him following Martin should disallow a self-defense, defense. It's common sense, right? But then they turn around and say this case "has nothing to do with SYG," because Martin didn't follow the 911 operators instructions, followed Martin, etc.

It's wishful thinking, based on an arbitrary determination that the law shouldn't allow for something they, themselves don't think meets the bar of "self-defense," so that they can ignore how the law opens up ambiguity, the potential for these kinds of situations, and actually puts more power in the hands of the ebul govment - but essentially allowing the police force to determine guilt/innocence and taking that decision out of the hands of a judge or jury or peers.re: #77 Dark_Falcon

The SYG ground law does address proportionality, in that it requires a reasonable fear of death or severe bodily harm before deadly force can be used.

What the law says is something about "meet force with force." What it doesn't do is specify proportionality - although the bill's sponsor says that it does.

The type of parameters you describe are entirely subjective. Suppose you're an out of shape diabetic and the smaller guy is a decathlete?

This is one of the problems with the law.

84 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:29:50am

re: #81 sattv4u2

does she not have any evidence to refute his version of the events?"

Could be why she didn't go to the grand jury seeking 1st degree

File 2nd degree and allow a plead down to manslaughter

She gets a 'conviction" and GZ isn't put away for decades

I wouldn't be surprised by anything at this point. They may have a strong case for 2nd degree or they may have just filed charges knowing that it will get thrown out of court in a few months when community tensions subside. I wouldn't venture a guess either way.

85 darthstar  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:31:56am
86 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:33:11am

re: #75 darthstar

There have been SYG cases where two thugs shot it out and the survivor was let go because of SYG. ALEC, who wrote the SYG laws for most states at the request of the gun lobby, made it so broad that it doesn't prohibit SYG defense even when the person was perpetrating a crime.

Darth sorry, that's just not correct. SYG text does include the following text of where SYG does NOT apply

(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:

(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or...

That looks pretty clear to me.

EDIT-I'm thinking judicial error or more circumstances left unmentioned.

87 sattv4u2  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:33:27am

Tightrope

If Zimmerman goes away for life, his backers go nuts
If Zimmerman walks, the Martin backers will go nuts


Hence, #81

88 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:33:36am

How odd...Occupy Chicago--The Musical

Complete with Hare Krishnas, Ron Paul signs, chanting, and a visit by Vermin Supreme.

Heh.

89 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:33:39am

I assume everybody has already seen this.

90 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:34:31am

Oh, and the NJD won their first playoff game last night.

:)

91 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:35:32am

re: #79 Daniel Ballard

IMO that's asking too much of the victim.

Sure - that seems reasonable. But you can't just say that without dealing with the consequences. For example, we have the guy who chased someone who stole something and killed him after having that bag with a radio swung at him. We could imagine a situation nuanced even more to make the questions even more difficult.

You can't just assess these situations on what seems right without taking a full accounting of potential consequences and weighing them.

SYG has many consequences. The language could be cleaned up to address many of them better - but you still have the basic problem where you are changing a very basic aspect of the legal mechanism; you are taking the evaluative process out of the hands of the judicial system and putting it into the hands of the police department. That's problematic.

I also think that there's an underlying force at play - a deeply philosophical one about whether or not one has an obligation to retreat in the face of threat. It's an interesting question, IMO - but it gets dangerous when people use these kinds of laws to play out their philosophical orientation without thinking things through clearly - including all the implications of legislation such as SYG.

92 darthstar  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:35:33am

re: #86 Daniel Ballard

Happy to be corrected, but I heard someone talking about it on TV(apparently it was in Texas)...of course, people on TV never lie or exaggerate.

93 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:36:18am

re: #88 NJDhockeyfan

How odd...Occupy Chicago--The Musical

[Embedded content] Complete with Hare Krishnas, Ron Paul signs, chanting, and a visit by Vermin Supreme.

Heh.

Where's my pepper spray?

94 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:37:14am

re: #93 Killgore Trout

Where's my pepper spray?

Jokes write themselves. Don't tempt! /

95 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:37:51am

re: #77 Dark_Falcon

messed that reply up, above.

The SYG ground law does address proportionality, in that it requires a reasonable fear of death or severe bodily harm before deadly force can be used.

What the law says is something about "meet force with force." What it doesn't do is specify proportionality - although the bill's sponsor says that it does.

The type of parameters you describe are entirely subjective. Suppose you're an out of shape diabetic and the smaller guy is a decathlete?

This is one of the problems with the law.

96 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:40:18am

Today's the Orthodox Easter, so it's an occasion for one of the greater religious hoaxes: The Holy Fire of Jerusalem.

97 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:40:22am

re: #89 Adam, Eve and Steve

I assume everybody has already seen this.

[Embedded content]

Bad assumption. That thing is amazing. I tried 1848, 1939, and 1462. I could keep doing that all day. But I better not....

98 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:41:11am

re: #97 wrenchwench

Try 1792 as the last thing ;) (BTW, it's a continuation of the 2010 campaign... which was also very fun and merits checking out.)

99 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:41:36am

re: #79 Daniel Ballard

For what it's worth every gun/defense trainer I have talked to is basically realizing GZ is a screaming example of what not to do. Top to bottom. You know what I think of SYG in this instance.

The larger issues beyond GZ loom.
One story I am trying to track down (call it unconfirmed) is that of a woman in California that was attacked in her sleep and was being raped. She grabbed gun from under the bed and shot the attacker. He took a hit, and was fleeing the house when she shot him again. The police did not arrest her, but later the DA filed charges.

This sparks a larger defensive question-Is it reasonable to expect a violently raped woman to stay so clear headed as to hold her fire the instant the attacker turns his back? It's what the law requires. IMO that's asking too much of the victim.

I understand your point, and I'd say that her first shot was defensible. It's the second shot that cannot be defended. The attacker had terminated the attack and was fleeing. At that point, if you are a civilian you must cease fire. Even in Florida, which also has a 'shoot-the-carjacker' law, I know of at least one person who was charged with murder and ultimately pled guilty to manslaughter for having shot a would-be carjacker in the back after the criminal was running away. The self-defense expert who wrote about the case defended the SA's decision to file charges, as the threat had ended when the killing shot was fired. Sometimes that part of the law does end up nailing otherwise decent people whose blood was up, but that is the way it has to be. To fire on or pursue a fleeing criminal is solely a matter for the police.

100 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:42:19am

The violence in Chicago is way out of hand...

At least 10 shot, 3 killed across city

April 14, 2012 (CHICAGO) (WLS) -- At least 10 people were shot overnight in citywide shootings.

Of those victims, two men and one woman died on Chicago's South Side. A 31-year-old man was shot on the 1100-block of West 69th Street and died at a hospital. A woman, 21, also died at a hospital after being shot in the 3900-block of West 19th Street.

Another fatal shooting happened just before 1:30 a.m. Saturday in the 6400-block of South Langley Avenue. A 52-year-old man was shot in the neck. Police say he died at the scene.

No one was in custody later Saturday morning.

It's a fucking war zone out there.

101 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:44:14am

re: #98 Adam, Eve and Steve

Try 1792 as the last thing ;) (BTW, it's a continuation of the 2010 campaign... which was also very fun and merits checking out.)

That was great. 1969 is cool, too.

*closing tab now...*

102 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:45:49am

Perhaps Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton could find some time away from their busy schedule and go to Chicago and try to help lower the murder rate. It has spike up 60% the past 3 months.

103 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:46:28am

re: #83 Talking Point Detective

My particular point of interest is how many conservatives assume that's the case, in an attempt to justify SYG laws, without realizing that SYG is inherently ambiguous in that regard.

It's wishful thinking. They, themselves, think that him following Martin should disallow a self-defense, defense. It's common sense, right? But then they turn around and say this case "has nothing to do with SYG," because Martin didn't follow the 911 operators instructions, followed Martin, etc.

It's wishful thinking, based on an arbitrary determination that the law shouldn't allow for something they, themselves don't think meets the bar of "self-defense," so that they can ignore how the law opens up ambiguity, the potential for these kinds of situations, and actually puts more power in the hands of the ebul govment - but essentially allowing the police force to determine guilt/innocence and taking that decision out of the hands of a judge or jury or peers.re: #77 Dark_Falcon

What the law says is something about "meet force with force." What it doesn't do is specify proportionality - although the bill's sponsor says that it does.

The type of parameters you describe are entirely subjective. Suppose you're an out of shape diabetic and the smaller guy is a decathlete?

This is one of the problems with the law.

OTOH opponents of SYG have to make the case that is is so broad as to include GZ. They have to advocate the very widest interpretation. For example many opponents ignore certain passages of the law in order to better criticize it. Like the bit I clipped out for Darthstar. I can't address the case he refers to of course I can just read that text and see that a exception for unlawful activity" is really there.

Frankly I could care less what partisans have to say about this. I find those political motivations in life and death issues despicable. My worries are how society strikes the best possible balance to allow self defense in all the places we might be assaulted and not enable vigilantism or revenge.

104 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:48:24am

re: #99 Dark_Falcon

I understand your point, and I'd say that her first shot was defensible. It's the second shot that cannot be defended. The attacker had terminated the attack and was fleeing. At that point, if you are a civilian you must cease fire. Even in Florida, which also has a 'shoot-the-carjacker' law, I know of at least one person who was charged with murder and ultimately pled guilty to manslaughter for having shot a would-be carjacker in the back after the criminal was running away. The self-defense expert who wrote about the case defended the SA's decision to file charges, as the threat had ended when the killing shot was fired. Sometimes that part of the law does end up nailing otherwise decent people whose blood was up, but that is the way it has to be. To fire on or pursue a fleeing criminal is solely a matter for the police.

Then there's this case:

A Laredo, Texas jury has acquitted a man who was accused of murdering a boy who broke into his home with other teens in search of snacks and sodas in July 2007. Jose Luis Gonzalez, 63, shot Francisco Anguiano, 13, in the back after making him and his three friends kneel in front of him in his trailer after catching him in a break-in. For some, it is an example of the increasing carnage under the so-called Castle Doctrine or make-my-day laws.

Not assuming that all the facts are in that description (the defense said that the shooter feared for his life because the kind lunged at him), the shooter was acquitted. Was that just?

[Link: jonathanturley.org...]

105 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:48:26am

re: #102 NJDhockeyfan

Perhaps Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton could find some time away from their busy schedule and go to Chicago and try to help lower the murder rate. It has spike up 60% the past 3 months.

How can they do it?

106 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:49:12am

re: #95 Talking Point Detective

messed that reply up, above.

What the law says is something about "meet force with force." What it doesn't do is specify proportionality - although the bill's sponsor says that it does.

The type of parameters you describe are entirely subjective. Suppose you're an out of shape diabetic and the smaller guy is a decathlete?

This is one of the problems with the law.

In my case? It wouldn't matter. The way I've talked so often of my internal struggle to "cage the demon", coupled with my descriptions of the severe stress I am often under would make conviction a slam dunk. I'd be painted as a person who finally lost the battle to control the worst part of himself and now must pay for the damage letting that part slip its leash had caused.

Believe it or not, in a case like that what I've written here would likely hang me, and I know it. So if the other guy was not armed, I'd just take whatever beat-down he decided to administer and hope to avoid permanent injury.

107 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:50:38am

re: #102 NJDhockeyfan

Perhaps Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton could find some time away from their busy schedule and go to Chicago and try to help lower the murder rate. It has spike up 60% the past 3 months.

It's just the annual spring weather warm up. More people are out and about. It happens every year in most big cities. I haven't heard a gunshot since I left Chicago 15 years ago.

108 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:51:15am

re: #103 Daniel Ballard

OTOH opponents of SYG have to make the case that is is so broad as to include GZ.

But in point of fact, SYG is why Zimmerman walked. It was the stated rationale for not arresting him. And it would still be applicable to this day had there not been an extraordinary amount of outcry led by his family.

Now, the miscarriage of a law is not an inherent indictment of the law, but the relative potential for a law to be miscarried is entirely relevant - and it is fundamentally the reason why law enforcement was basically lined up in opposition.

109 darthstar  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:52:10am

re: #102 NJDhockeyfan

Perhaps Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton could find some time away from their busy schedule and go to Chicago and try to help lower the murder rate. It has spike up 60% the past 3 months.

So you think it's just black people doing all the killing? That's an unfair stereotype to apply to one race of people.

110 RogueOne  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:53:37am

re: #100 NJDhockeyfan

The violence in Chicago is way out of hand...

At least 10 shot, 3 killed across city

It's a fucking war zone out there.

They need highly restrictive gun laws. That will fix it.

111 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:53:46am

re: #105 Adam, Eve and Steve

How can they do it?

Go to the inner city area where most of the homicides have occurred and get the local leaders together to help cull the violence. I would assume as preachers they could actually make a good impression among the young kids who are part of or becoming a member of the gangs.

112 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:53:57am

re: #106 Dark_Falcon

In my case? It wouldn't matter. The way I've talked so often of my internal struggle to "cage the demon", coupled with my descriptions of the severe stress I am often under would make conviction a slam dunk. I'd be painted as a person who finally lost the battle to control the worst part of himself and now must pay for the damage letting that part slip its leash had caused.

Believe it or not, in a case like that what I've written here would likely hang me, and I know it. So if the other guy was not armed, I'd just take whatever beat-down he decided to administer and hope to avoid permanent injury.

It's questionable how much all of that would be admissible and/or relevant. My point is that regardless of your specific case, a determination of "meet force with force" is inherently ambiguous, open for subjective interpretation. It should be specified more, or the law is basically for shit.

113 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:54:47am

re: #109 darthstar

So you think it's just black people doing all the killing? That's an unfair stereotype to apply to one race of people.

You decided to bring race into this, not me.

114 Gus  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:55:15am
115 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:55:48am

re: #102 NJDhockeyfan

Perhaps Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton could find some time away from their busy schedule and go to Chicago and try to help lower the murder rate. It has spike up 60% the past 3 months.

Just curious. Is it really your contention that Jessie Jackson and Sharpton are unconcerned with urban black on black violence?

Man, you really just sling the frightwing nonsense without another thought, don't you?

116 darthstar  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:56:00am

re: #113 NJDhockeyfan

You decided to bring race into this, not me.

Bullshit.

117 Gus  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:56:09am

re: #102 NJDhockeyfan

Perhaps Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton could find some time away from their busy schedule and go to Chicago and try to help lower the murder rate. It has spike up 60% the past 3 months.

Seriously?

118 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:56:14am

re: #105 Adam, Eve and Steve

How can they do it?

How about support for a mandatory curfew in the worst areas? No one not on work-related business on the streets from midnight to 5am. They could also promote voluntary subscriptions to support the hiring of more police or the purchase of more effective police equipment and or training.

Those are just two 'non-brutal' ideas off the top of my head. I head to delete a couple that I realized weren't good ideas.

119 RogueOne  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:56:18am

re: #107 Killgore Trout

It's just the annual spring weather warm up. More people are out and about. It happens every year in most big cities. I haven't heard a gunshot since I left Chicago 15 years ago.

The sounds of spring. Birds chirping, frogs calling, and gunfire.

120 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:57:01am

re: #92 darthstar

One of the best things about this board is we have enough brainpower someone has the expertise to correct these media driven misunderstandings. Obviously this case has my full attention. I'm putting on a class soon for a group of shooters that want to learn defensive shooting in class and practice via IDPA & similar competition. So as always we have a legal expert in to lecture the class on use of force in California. Usually a cop. Sometimes an attorney. To the best of my ability-I refuse to cause a moral or civil liability by leaving any doubt in a students mind about use of force.

This case is now in my curriculum, as an example of what to never, ever do. Another point we make again and again. Even a legit killing in your home with good cause may ruin your life. It will certainly change you forever, and not for the better. It's a damn dark awful scenario that is far too diminished by the cowboy mentality. We fix that right up front.

121 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:57:01am

re: #116 darthstar

Bullshit.

Where did I mention race?

122 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:58:04am

re: #113 NJDhockeyfan

You decided to bring race into this, not me.

That's beautiful. Your mention of Sharpton and Jackson had nothing to do with race?

How have you survived here? From what I've seen, you're the only conservative here who stoops this low. Even Buck presents arguments of at least some degree of sophistication.

123 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 8:58:15am

re: #107 Killgore Trout

It's just the annual spring weather warm up. More people are out and about. It happens every year in most big cities. I haven't heard a gunshot since I left Chicago 15 years ago.

No, it's not. The murder rate is way up compared to last year. Gang fighting is a a fever pitch in parts of Chicago right now.

124 Gus  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:00:02am

Embarrassing.

125 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:00:41am

re: #111 NJDhockeyfan

Go to the inner city area where most of the homicides have occurred and get the local leaders together to help cull the violence. I would assume as preachers they could actually make a good impression among the young kids who are part of or becoming a member of the gangs.

If it's so obvious, if it depends on the local leaders, and if they don't lift a finger themselves, then I doubt Sharpton and Jackson could be of much help.

126 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:00:57am

Yup.

127 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:00:58am

re: #123 Dark_Falcon

No, it's not. The murder rate is way up compared to last year. Gang fighting is a a fever pitch in parts of Chicago right now.

It's out of control. I hope Rahm Emanuel has a good plan to stop it. So far 120 have been killed the past 3 months. I think that much more than how many soldiers we've lost in Afghanistan.

128 Gus  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:01:25am

10-4

129 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:01:35am

re: #121 NJDhockeyfan

Where did I mention race?

When you mentioned Jackson and Sharpton.

130 sattv4u2  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:02:32am

re: #125 Adam, Eve and Steve

If it's so obvious, if it depends on the local leaders, and if they don't lift a finger themselves, then I doubt Sharpton and Jackson could be of much help.

Jackson is based in Chicago. His roots there run deep. As a national figure with a strong voice and local pull, NJD has a point

131 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:02:39am

10-2000

///

132 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:02:49am

re: #111 NJDhockeyfan

Go to the inner city area where most of the homicides have occurred and get the local leaders together to help cull the violence. I would assume as preachers they could actually make a good impression among the young kids who are part of or becoming a member of the gangs.

It is sort of an interesting problem. I lived in a marginal area of Chicago, not really bad but lots of gang activity. Mostly Hispanic. At first I was scared shitless of the gang bangers. Especially the younger ones can be very unpredictable. After a short while, once they got used to seeing me around and started to protect me as part of their neighborhood. One day some sketchy looking guys were following me home from the train station and once I got within a few blocks of my apartment the local gangbangers confronted the guys following me and chased them off. They also used to protect my car, although they would break into cars of my guests that they didn't recognize.
In sort of a strange way the gangs are the neighborhood watch in these areas and that's why the communities often support them. They serve a purpose but they also cause a lot of trouble.

133 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:02:51am

re: #125 Adam, Eve and Steve

If it's so obvious, if it depends on the local leaders, and if they don't lift a finger themselves, then I doubt Sharpton and Jackson could be of much help.

Both of them can bring national attention to the problem and Sharpton could actually host his show from Chicago. That would help tremendously IMO.

134 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:03:03am

re: #110 RogueOne

They need highly restrictive gun laws. That will fix it.

Not to take an attempt at humor too seriously - but hat's a pretty cheap shot. It's arguable whether stricter gun laws might help, no one says they will "fix it."

In Philly, the citizenry wants to limit the # of guns people can buy in a given year. It is a fairly reasonable approach to going after straw buyers. We can't pass it here because of ideological opposition from other parts of the state.

135 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:03:15am

re: #129 Adam, Eve and Steve

When you mentioned Jackson and Sharpton.

So.

136 RogueOne  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:03:15am

Speaking of spring, my Mourning Doves are back. This is the 3rd year we've had the same female, not sure if the male is the same guy or not. My wife has named them Fred and Ethel. Last year they had a rough time building a nest on the back of my basketball goal so I put up some pieces of expanded metal for them to nest on. They've been working on this years nest for the last week.

137 sattv4u2  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:03:40am

re: #129 Adam, Eve and Steve

When you mentioned Jackson and Sharpton.

So any mention of an African American injects "race" into a discussion?

Gee,,, I hope I'm not around when we're talking about the NBA playoffs!!

138 darthstar  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:04:27am

re: #137 sattv4u2

You're smarter than that.

139 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:04:40am

re: #135 NJDhockeyfan

So.

I don't understand your response.

140 RogueOne  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:05:16am

re: #134 Talking Point Detective

Not to take an attempt at humor too seriously - but hat's a pretty cheap shot. It's arguable whether stricter gun laws might help, no one says they will "fix it."

In Philly, the citizenry wants to limit the # of guns people can buy in a given year. It is a fairly reasonable approach to going after straw buyers. We can't pass it here because of ideological opposition from other parts of the state.

Taking isolated incidents and blowing them up to make ideological points is considered taking a "cheap shot"? Who knew?///

141 sattv4u2  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:05:27am

re: #132 Killgore Trout

The serve a purpose but they also cause a lot of trouble.

Reminds me of the old "wise guys" I knew back in the North End neighborhood of Boston

142 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:05:35am

re: #137 sattv4u2

So any mention of an African American injects "race" into a discussion?

Gee,,, I hope I'm not around when we're talking about the NBA playoffs!!

Unprompted mentions of Jackson and Sharpton are quite a staple in the comment sections in all right-wing sites discussion the TM case.

143 Gus  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:05:37am

re: #137 sattv4u2

So any mention of an African American injects "race" into a discussion?

Gee,,, I hope I'm not around when we're talking about the NBA playoffs!!

That's true. I'm sure mentioning Jackson and Sharpton means they're going to talk with the Polish community in Chicago.

144 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:05:40am

re: #137 sattv4u2

So any mention of an African American injects "race" into a discussion?

Gee,,, I hope I'm not around when we're talking about the NBA playoffs!!

I just mentioned hockey a little while ago. I wonder how that fits in?

145 darthstar  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:05:44am

re: #133 NJDhockeyfan

Both of them can bring national attention to the problem and Sharpton could actually host his show from Chicago. That would help tremendously IMO.

Because there's nothing thuglets like more than watching afternoon political talk shows on cable TV.

146 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:06:32am

re: #139 Adam, Eve and Steve

I don't understand your response.

What does Jackson and Sharpton have to do with anything? I had no idea mentioning them is racists.

147 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:06:34am

re: #141 sattv4u2

The serve a purpose but they also cause a lot of trouble.

Reminds me of the old "wise guys" I knew back in the North End neighborhood of Boston

That's a good point. I think it is a bit like that.

148 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:08:23am

re: #143 Gus

That's true. I'm sure mentioning Jackson and Sharpton means they're going to talk with the Polish community in Chicago.

The gangs in Chicago are no all black.

But you knew that.

149 darthstar  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:08:48am

re: #146 NJDhockeyfan

Stop feigning ignorance. It's really embarrassing to watch.

150 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:09:04am

re: #141 sattv4u2

The serve a purpose but they also cause a lot of trouble.

Reminds me of the old "wise guys" I knew back in the North End neighborhood of Boston

It was open season every single night of a Celtics game. Each and every car with an out of state plate was trashed.

I had a truck with carpentry tools that got broken into one time. I went down the street the next day and talked to a few people and got my tools back.

151 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:09:17am

re: #146 NJDhockeyfan

What does Jackson and Sharpton have to do with anything? I had no idea mentioning them is racists.

I didn't say you were racist. However you brought up Sharpton and Jackson, bogeymen of the right when it comes to racial cases, and since they indeed have nothing to do with anything discussed here this day, what made you mention S&J?

152 Gus  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:09:28am

re: #148 NJDhockeyfan

The gangs in Chicago are no all black.

But you knew that.

Then next time expand your list to include Graham.

153 sattv4u2  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:09:40am

re: #143 Gus

That's true. I'm sure mentioning Jackson and Sharpton means they're going to talk with the Polish community in Chicago.

There's a lot of Polish Gang killings/ violence in ChiTown? I did not know that!

154 Gus  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:10:07am

What the fuck is this racial realism morning. Give me a fucking break.

155 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:10:37am

re: #149 darthstar

Stop feigning ignorance. It's really embarrassing to watch.

Seriously. It's bad enough to sling that shit. It's even worse to pretend he didn't know what he was doing.

156 RogueOne  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:10:45am

re: #153 sattv4u2

There's a lot of Polish Gang killings/ violence in ChiTown? I did not know that!

Them being in the wrong neighborhood makes sense somehow....

157 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:11:12am

re: #151 Adam, Eve and Steve

I didn't say you were racist. However you brought up Sharpton and Jackson, bogeymen of the right when it comes to racial cases, and since they indeed have nothing to do with anything discussed here this day, what made you mention S&J?

Aren't they major civil rights leaders? I'm not understanding the outrage this morning.

158 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:11:20am

BTW, I don't respect Sharpton and I think he should not insert himself into such cases given his reputation and history. However I'm not gonna pop up with Sharpton mentions for no reason at all.

159 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:11:28am

re: #151 Adam, Eve and Steve

I didn't say you were racist. However you brought up Sharpton and Jackson, bogeymen of the right when it comes to racial cases, and since they indeed have nothing to do with anything discussed here this day. So, what made you mention S&J?

Is there any reason to believe that an explanation is worth the time it takes to write?

160 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:12:16am

re: #157 NJDhockeyfan

Aren't they major civil rights leaders? I'm not understanding the outrage this morning.

I'm not outraged, simply amused.

161 RogueOne  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:13:05am

re: #150 Talking Point Detective

We were in Denver to do a big job and in the time it took to walk up the stairs to check out the apartment someone stole 1/2 the tools out of the back of my truck. 10 minutes in town and half my stuff gone!

162 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:13:43am

re: #138 darthstar

You're smarter than that.

And you need to understand that most murders in Chicago (not by proportion, but a numerical majority) were of black people, the great majoirty of whom were killed by young black males. That is not impressions, those are the facts Satt and NJD are talking about.

BBL

163 Gus  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:14:09am

re: #160 Adam, Eve and Steve

I'm not outraged, simply amused.

Maybe I should try that.

SERENITY NOW!

Bunch of white guys talking about the "black problem" in Chicago. Excuse me while I evacuate last night's dinner.

164 sattv4u2  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:14:10am

BBIAB (damn clients)

165 darthstar  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:14:13am

re: #155 Talking Point Detective

Seriously. It's bad enough to sling that shit. It's even worse to pretend he didn't know what he was doing.

He got what he wanted. He made a dig at the black community and stirred up a little shit-storm. Entertainment.

166 KronoGhazi  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:15:12am

re: #157 NJDhockeyfan

Aren't they major civil rights leaders? I'm not understanding the outrage this morning.

Whose outrage, yours? That you inject Sharpton and Jackson into the discussion... what was the point if not antagonism about the right wings favorites 'race pimps?'

Are you pimping the race pimp meme via a little antagonism then playing the victim when you get called on it?

167 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:15:14am

re: #157 NJDhockeyfan

Aren't they major civil rights leaders? I'm not understanding the outrage this morning.

OK, further explanation.

On the right "Sharpton and Jackson" became a shorthand for "blacks are race-baiters". Whether you like it or not. Go to any right-wing site, any race-related story with blacks, you will likely see them mentioned. It's a stable meme, so don't be surprised about the reaction of people who are well-informed enough to know this meme.

168 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:15:53am

re: #165 darthstar

He got what he wanted. He made a dig at the black community and stirred up a little shit-storm. Entertainment.

Bullshit.

169 Gus  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:17:39am

re: #167 Adam, Eve and Steve

OK, further explanation.

On the right "Sharpton and Jackson" became a shorthand for "blacks are race-baiters". Whether you like it or not. Go to any right-wing site, any race-related story with blacks, you will likely see them mentioned. It's a stable meme, so don't be surprised about the reaction of people who are well-informed enough to know this meme.

...

10 people shot in Chicago Friday evening... where's AL SHARPTON and JESSE JACKSON??????

170 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:18:02am

re: #161 RogueOne

We were in Denver to do a big job and in the time it took to walk up the stairs to check out the apartment someone stole 1/2 the tools out of the back of my truck. 10 minutes in town and half my stuff gone!

I always feel so stupid when that kind of thing happens. I forget to lock a door 1 time out of 1,000 times, and someone steals something. Once I get past the anger of being violated, I get pissed at myself for being so stupid - as if an expectation of100% vigilance is reasonable.

After a while I get around to shit happens.

In that situation in Boston I had just bought a really, really nice electric planer. Never got that back. Kind of a commission, I guess, for the retrieval service. Given who was involved, I wasn't going to press the issue. But I'll tell you one thing - a woman could walk around in that neighborhood at night and feel perfectly safe.

171 KronoGhazi  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:18:16am

racey pimpey

172 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:19:03am

re: #167 Adam, Eve and Steve

OK, further explanation.

On the right "Sharpton and Jackson" became a shorthand for "blacks are race-baiters". Whether you like it or not. Go to any right-wing site, any race-related story with blacks, you will likely see them mentioned. It's a stable meme, so don't be surprised about the reaction of people who are well-informed enough to know this meme.

Are we supposed to stop mentioning their names from now on just because some idiots on other website post shit about them?

173 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:19:09am

re: #98 Adam, Eve and Sergey

You told me once a while ago that Chuck Baldwin had changed his view on homosexuality, and now I can't find info about that. Can you help me again?

(I need to make a comment over here and I don't want to misrepresent him.)

174 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:19:29am

re: #165 darthstar

He got what he wanted. He made a dig at the black community and stirred up a little shit-storm. Entertainment.

That's why I think that ridicule is the only appropriate response.

175 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:20:36am

re: #151 Adam, Eve and Steve

I didn't say you were racist. However you brought up Sharpton and Jackson, bogeymen of the right when it comes to racial cases, and since they indeed have nothing to do with anything discussed here this day, what made you mention S&J?

It's not just the right. There are some genuine concerns with Jesse and Al. If they were genuinely concerned with issues withing the black community I would think they'd be more concerned with gang violence regardless of the races of the victims and the perpetrators. Instead they mostly get involved when there's a racial difference and in the past have been very mistaken about the facts of the cases. Especially with Rev. Al he has done much harm to racial community relations. I think the efforts could be better directed.

176 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:20:51am

Memo to myself...any mention Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton on here and expect instant cries of racism.

177 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:21:26am

re: #173 wrenchwench

You told me once a while ago that Chuck Baldwin had changed his view on homosexuality, and now I can't find info about that. Can you help me again?

(I need to make a comment over here and I don't want to misrepresent him.)

I did? I don't remember. Have to google.

178 KronoGhazi  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:21:52am

re: #172 NJDhockeyfan

Are we supposed to stop mentioning their names from now on just because some idiots on other website post shit about them?

You should stop mimicking what the idiots do on other websites, which is what you did here. It was nothing more than an antagonistic play on the race pimp meme.

You didn't merely mention their names. Don't think for a second that shit will fly here.

179 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:21:59am

re: #173 wrenchwench

You sure it was not Barr?

180 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:22:03am

re: #175 Killgore Trout

It's not just the right. There are some genuine concerns with Jesse and Al. If they were genuinely concerned with issues withing the black community I would think they'd be more concerned with gang violence regardless of the races of the victims and the perpetrators. Instead they mostly get involved when there's a racial difference and in the past have been very mistaken about the facts of the cases. Especially with Rev. Al he has done much harm to racial community relations. I think the efforts could be better directed.

How have you determined their level of "concern" over gang violence?

181 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:22:03am

re: #172 NJDhockeyfan

Are we supposed to stop mentioning their names from now on just because some idiots on other website post shit about them?

Only if you don't want to be the idiot on this website posting shit.

(Pitching in on the ridicule.)

182 darthstar  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:22:17am

re: #172 NJDhockeyfan

Are we supposed to stop mentioning their names from now on just because some idiots on other website post shit about them?

Not at all, but that doesn't mean you should imitate those idiots.

183 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:22:26am

re: #179 Adam, Eve and Steve

You sure it was not Barr?

No, I am not sure. Thanks!

184 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:22:41am

re: #176 NJDhockeyfan

Memo to myself...any mention Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton on here and expect instant cries of racism.

I noticed a few weeks ago the bottom comments list was filled with people speaking ill of Jimmy Carter. Heh.

185 darthstar  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:23:15am

re: #176 NJDhockeyfan

Memo to myself...any mention Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton on here and expect instant cries of racism.

Don't be a fucking retard. Own up to what you said and move the fuck on. Your self pity is pathetic.

186 Gus  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:23:18am

re: #184 Killgore Trout

I noticed a few weeks ago the bottom comments list was filled with people speaking ill of Jimmy Carter. Heh.

Derp.

187 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:23:23am

re: #178 Kronocide

You should stop mimicking what the idiots do on other websites, which is what you did here. It was nothing more than an antagonistic play on the race pimp meme.

You didn't merely mention their names. Don't think for a second that shit will fly here.

Which website did I mimic? Linky please.

188 sattv4u2  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:23:43am

re: #184 Killgore Trout

I noticed a few weeks ago the bottom comments list was filled with people speaking ill of Jimmy Carter. Heh.

maybe HE could go to Chicago and speak to the Polish Gang Leaders!!

189 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:23:49am

re: #183 wrenchwench

No, I am not sure. Thanks!

I'm pretty sure Baldwin is as bad as ever.

190 KronoGhazi  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:23:57am

re: #176 NJDhockeyfan

Memo to myself...any mention Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton on here and expect instant cries of racism.

Act like a right wing moron, get treated like a right wing moron. I have no problems discussing Sharpton or Jackson.

But I don't push the race pimps meme either.

Spare us the victimhood, it's not working.

191 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:24:11am

re: #186 Gus

Derp.

Derpartheid!

192 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:24:19am

re: #182 darthstar

Not at all, but that doesn't mean you should imitate those idiots.

Who? What did they say about this same subject? I missed that one.

193 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:25:03am

re: #185 darthstar

Don't be a fucking retard. Own up to what you said and move the fuck on. Your self pity is pathetic.

A day just isn't quite right without being able to claim victimization.

194 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:25:10am

Crap. Really looking forward to a new thread. This one has just gone off the rails.

195 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:25:15am

re: #162 Dark_Falcon

And you need to understand that most murders in Chicago (not by proportion, but a numerical majority) were of black people, the great majoirty of whom were killed by young black males. That is not impressions, those are the facts Satt and NJD are talking about.

BBL

And you need to understand that 84% of the murders of white people are committed by other white people.

196 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:26:19am

re: #194 Daniel Ballard

Crap. Really looking forward to a new thread. This one has just gone off the rails.

I'm hoping for an OWS thread.

197 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:26:48am

re: #175 Killgore Trout

You don't need to explain Sharpton's and Jackson's reputation and history to me. First of all because I know about it and don't admire them. Second, because it has zero to do with the fact that S&J are invoked extremely often when some serious race-related discussion needs to be derailed.

198 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:27:00am

re: #194 Daniel Ballard

Crap. Really looking forward to a new thread. This one has just gone off the rails.

Gotta run. I enjoyed our exchange.

199 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:27:40am

re: #198 Talking Point Detective

Thanks. Me too. Have a good one.

200 Gus  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:27:44am

re: #191 Killgore Trout

Derpartheid!

Yeah, I get it. Apartheid (i.e. Carter, Israel, etc.) plus derp. I don't remember the particular trolling session but I'm sure it had more to do with the delivery rather than Jimmy Carter himself.

201 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:27:48am

re: #190 Kronocide

Act like a right wing moron, get treated like a right wing moron. I have no problems discussing Sharpton or Jackson.

But I don't push the race pimps meme either.

Spare us the victimhood, it's not working.

All you lefties on here brought up the race card. Not me. All I was suggesting was that these two so called civil rights leaders should go to Chicago and help out a nasty murder problem in the inner city.

202 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:28:09am

re: #195 Charles Johnson

And you need to understand that 84% of the murders of white people are committed by other white people.

Yup.

203 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:28:19am

re: #176 NJDhockeyfan

Memo to myself...any mention Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton on here and expect instant cries of racism.

You also get a free martyr cookie when you do so!

204 darthstar  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:28:31am

Okay, people...internet break time. Debating this derp is just leaving a shitstain on Charles' site for the stalkers to jack off to.

205 KronoGhazi  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:28:34am

re: #184 Killgore Trout

I noticed a few weeks ago the bottom comments list was filled with people speaking ill of Jimmy Carter. Heh.

Was it because people were speaking ill of Carter, or how they were speaking ill of Carter?

Much like Sharpton/Jackson, who are by no means perfect and without criticism. Yet they aren't being criticized here, they're being mocked with a meme bordering on racism (race pimps). So unless I see some serious criticism leveled against them, which I haven't, this is nothing more that ignorant slander being defended by faux victimhood.

206 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:28:42am

re: #201 NJDhockeyfan

All you lefties on here brought up the race card. Not me. All I was suggesting was that these two so called civil rights leaders should go to Chicago and help out a nasty murder problem in the inner city.

You did it out of the best intentions of your heart. I get it.

207 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:29:11am

re: #200 Gus

Yeah, I get it. Apartheid (i.e. Carter, Israel, etc.) plus derp. I don't remember the particular trolling session but I'm sure it had more to do with the delivery rather than Jimmy Carter himself.

It often is.

208 sattv4u2  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:29:13am

re: #196 Killgore Trout

I'm hoping for an OWS thread.

boobs!

OR ,, better still,,,,, boobs AT an OWS event

2 birds, one stone and all!!

209 Mich-again  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:29:16am

The Don Ross song was incredible like every other one he plays. Its kind of a natural instinct for someone who plays guitar to watch another person play and think, heck, I could do that. But not when you're watching Don Ross play. He kinda makes me wanna go smash my guitar into pieces. ha

210 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:30:25am

re: #208 sattv4u2

boobs!

OR ,, better still,,, boobs AT an OWS event

2 birds, one stone and all!!

Boobs!

I have to go do some work. Have a great weekend everyone!

211 RogueOne  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:30:44am

re: #196 Killgore Trout

I'm hoping for an OWS thread.

'99 Percent Spring' protests gearing up locally, nationally
[Link: www.kansascity.com...]

212 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:30:55am

re: #208 sattv4u2

boobs!

OR ,, better still,,, boobs AT an OWS event

2 birds, one stone and all!!

I haven't seen a single boob thread here. Are they a mythical thing of the ancient past?

213 Gus  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:32:15am

re: #212 Adam, Eve and Steve

I haven't seen a single boob thread here. Are they a mythical thing of the ancient past?

We actually were doing a boob thread.

214 sattv4u2  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:32:17am

re: #212 Adam, Eve and Steve

I haven't seen a single boob thread here. Are they a mythical thing of the ancient past?

You have to register for them

Just send me your VISA or MasterCard # and i'll send you the secret code!

215 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:33:30am

re: #214 sattv4u2

You have to register for them

Just send me your VISA or MasterCard # and i'll send you the secret code!

You're trying to scam me, right? No way I'm using a credit card. I'll send you cash.

216 KronoGhazi  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:33:45am

re: #187 NJDhockeyfan

Which website did I mimic? Linky please.

You are pushing the race pimps meme by antagonistically feigning inquiry as to why Sharpton and Jackson don't go to Chicago to deal with all this crime.

It's not on any one website, it's on all of them. And you know it if you've been paying attention here.

217 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:35:09am

re: #211 RogueOne

'99 Percent Spring' protests gearing up locally, nationally
[Link: www.kansascity.com...]

There's been some grumbling about that.
Debate: Occupy Wall Street vs Spring99% Co-optation?

There is a debate going on right now within certain progressive activist circles and communities around the country. It’s a debate generally between Occupy Wall Street activists and supporters with those individuals and groups that have coalesced around a loose network called Spring99%.

There are accusations from Occupy folks that Spring99% is trying to co-opt the OWS movement. That MoveOn is a front for the Democratic Party. And there are denials both from activists within the Spring99% network and members of the Occupy movement itself. It is a needed debate, even though it’s probably under the radar for many progressives and irrelevant for mainstream politics – except for the accusations that Spring99% is a front for the Obama re-election campaign. Meanwhile, paranoia of being co-opted has been a mainstay within the anti-Wall Street movement for months.

Here are half a dozen or so articles from various sources that either address or explain two of the sides of this debate. Following these articles, is another piece about local trainings and a link to sign-up:

I know a lot of people have a needless emotional need to pretend that their pet movement of some organic mass uprising. The tea party had the same delusion. I'm not a big fan of move on or OWS but I think OWS is pretty much dead unless they find some organization and direction. Otherwise it's just going to be a couple dozen idiots trying to camp in parks.

218 kirkspencer  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:35:35am

Actually, there's been a rash of "Sharpton and Jackson need to deal with Chicago" posts recently over on right wing sites. The post here looked like yet another echo, whether intended as such or not.

219 Gus  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:37:26am

re: #218 kirkspencer

Actually, there's been a rash of "Sharpton and Jackson need to deal with Chicago" posts recently over on right wing sites. The post here looked like yet another echo, whether intended as such or not.

...

Ol_Irish ‏ @Ol_Irish
Where's t/outrage? Black-on-Black Crime at record levels in Chicago, #BHO, #Sharpton, #Jackson & #MSM all silent. #tcot
13 Apr NW & US Politics NW & US Politics ‏ @NWUSPolitics

RT @Talkmaster #tcot: Black on Black murders near record levels in Chicago. Obama says nothing. No visits planned by Sharpton or Jackson.
12 Apr jennifer jennifer ‏ @j3VOL

Al Sharpton? Where are you? I'm still waiting! ... "OTL" Chicago's murder rate soars 60 percent in 3 months.

220 sattv4u2  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:37:31am

re: #215 Adam, Eve and Steve

You're trying to scam me, right? No way I'm using a credit card. I'll send you cash.

I'm not an exiled Nigerian Prince,, but I do play one on the internet

221 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:38:46am

re: #209 Mich-again

The Don Ross song was incredible like every other one he plays. Its kind of a natural instinct for someone who plays guitar to watch another person play and think, heck, I could do that. But not when you're watching Don Ross play. He kinda makes me wanna go smash my guitar into pieces. ha

Heh. Sometimes I look at the work of certain photographers and I feel the same about my camera.

222 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:39:17am

MoveOn has made some mistakes, but it would be a huge improvement over creeps like adbusters. If they coopt OWS and don't let the crazies run free, it 's for the good.

223 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:40:06am

re: #201 NJDhockeyfan

All you lefties on here brought up the race card. Not me. All I was suggesting was that these two so called civil rights leaders should go to Chicago and help out a nasty murder problem in the inner city.

Don't you think if it was that simple they would? Even if one dislikes them and thinks they really don't care, surely they would do it for the fame & kudos, no?

Poverty, crime, race, etc. isn't some simple problem that can be fixed by a couple of preachers walking into poor, crime-ridden areas and saying, "Okay, man up! Bootstraps—grab 'em, we're gonna turn everything around here!"

There's a long messy history and a huge amount of baggage on all sides. Things didn't get like this overnight, and they're not gonna get fixed overnight. It doesn't work like that. The entire system has to change, people's way of thinking and seeing each other has to change. Economic conditions have to change. Education....

But whatever, WTF do I know? I don't even want to be in this argument, so I'm just going to re-lurk and STFU.

224 kirkspencer  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:40:33am

re: #219 Gus

Yep. And there was Jim Hoft's post at the Gateway Pundit and there were a couple at the Corner. And so on, and so forth.

Whether it's left or right (and recently the right's been more common), if you post something that's been echoing around and are known to bias that direction, you shouldn't be surprised if everyone thinks you're just another echo carrying the underlying message.

225 RogueOne  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:40:41am

The Unchecked Charging Power of the Prosecutor
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

When Florida special prosecutor Angela Corey charged George Zimmerman with second-degree murder this week in the February shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in Sanford, the charge won praise from Martin's supporters and more skeptical reactions from some legal commentators.

The power prosecutors have to charge people with crimes is often overlooked. While probable cause is the minimum standard police officers need to make an arrest and the minimum standard to convict is beyond a reasonable doubt, the question is where the power to charge should be between those two extremes.

In the 22 states that require a grand jury indictment before charging, the grand jury standard is a preponderance of the evidence, although grand juries are sometimes notorious for rubber-stamping a prosecutor's wishes.

But without a grand jury, a prosecutor's charging power is entirely discretionary.

226 RogueOne  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:44:30am

re: #225 RogueOne

Slightly more:

The American Bar Association's Standards for Criminal Justice advises that a prosecutor shouldn't prosecute a case in which he doubts the defendant's guilt, but if he believes there's enough evidence to establish probable cause, the ABA guidelines state that it's ethical to pursue a conviction. There's also no requirement that a prosecutor pursue evidence that may cast doubt on the suspect's guilt. That means it is ethical for a prosecutor, according to the ABA, to ask a jury to pronounce a defendant guilty with a degree of certainty that the prosecutor may not possess himself.

227 KronoGhazi  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:46:21am

re: #187 NJDhockeyfan

Which website did I mimic? Linky please.

Major fail dude. This didn't take long.

Go to freerepublic.com, enter 'Sharpton' in the search bar.

1st story, 6th comment that comes up:

To: Oldeconomybuyer

Black on black crime......AL WHERE ARE YOU, JESSE WHERE ARE YOU? ANYONE WHO IS ON BOARD IN THE ZIMMERMAN CASE WHERE ARE YOU? No cameras and media to jump in front of, hypocrites, racebaiters. There are no WHITE HISPAINICS involved!

2nd story, pretty much all the comments...

You're doing the same thing, although a kinder and gentler (more subversive) form of derp.

228 sattv4u2  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:46:32am

re: #226 RogueOne

I'll stand by my #81

I believe that will be the outcome

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

229 Gus  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:49:32am
230 RogueOne  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:51:26am

re: #228 sattv4u2

One of the arguments against the SYG laws seems to be we should leave those types of decisions up to prosecutors. I, OTOH, think that is a really bad idea. For instance,

FTA:

The principle applies not only to the decision to bring charges, but to what evidence a prosecutor introduces at trial to support those charges. A few years ago, I wrote an article about the federal drug conspiracy prosecution of the Colomb family in Church Point, La. Federal prosecutors brought forth a parade of jailhouse snitches during the Colomb trial, all of whom testified that they sold the family vast quantities of drugs. Add up the quantity of drugs the witnesses claimed to have sold the Colombs and the working-class family living in a modest home in a small town would have been one of the biggest drug cartels in the south. No one believed the informants were testifying truthfully.

But when asked during a sidebar whether he really believed what his witnesses were saying under oath, the assistant U.S. attorney said that his faith in the witnesses wasn't as important as whether the jury found them convincing. As a reporter, I found it surprising, and a little shocking, that a prosecutor would admit to putting on evidence he wasn't certain was truthful or accurate. But as I queried experts, I was more surprised at how few legal ethics experts would definitively say that the prosecutor in the Colomb case was wrong.

231 KronoGhazi  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:51:32am

re: #201 NJDhockeyfan

All you lefties on here brought up the race card. Not me. All I was suggesting was that these two so called civil rights leaders should go to Chicago and help out a nasty murder problem in the inner city.

Despite who brought up any race card, you played one and got called on it. Your suggestion didn't seem like an honestly constructive suggestion at all, it seemed more like race pimp derp.

If you're being honest and there was a mistake made, it's on you to correct it due to your clumsy writing.

Or you're full of shit and really were dropping a subversive race pimp tweak, now trying to weasel out of it.

232 RogueOne  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:52:42am

BRB....

233 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:53:05am

re: #231 Kronocide

He denied that he meant black youths. But then what do S&J have to do with it? Derp.

234 Gus  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:54:45am

Where's the Reverend Rick Santorum when you need him?

235 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:55:55am

re: #175 Killgore Trout

It's not just the right. There are some genuine concerns with Jesse and Al. If they were genuinely concerned with issues withing the black community I would think they'd be more concerned with gang violence regardless of the races of the victims and the perpetrators. Instead they mostly get involved when there's a racial difference and in the past have been very mistaken about the facts of the cases. Especially with Rev. Al he has done much harm to racial community relations. I think the efforts could be better directed.

BTW -

Response to Urban Violence Can't Wait

BY JESSE JACKSON

Chicago and other urban areas are in crisis. In Chicago, 113 people have been killed this year-a higher death toll than the troops have suffered in Afghanistan. The emergency is so dire that state legislators support calling out the National Guard to patrol Chicago's streets. Guard members now in Afghanistan might return to a more dangerous assignment.

As Mayor Daley noted, the suggestion is a "Band-Aid" at best. The troops are not trained as police. They might suppress the pain, but couldn't relieve it. More likely, their presence would increase violence and fear, not alleviate it.

But the urgency behind the proposal is right. This is a crisis, not a condition. This year, 150 children have been shot-25 fatally. In the 16 months leading up to December 2008, Chicago averaged 32 shootings of children a year.

[Link: www.lasentinel.net...]

Get back to me when you've bothered to quantify how "concerned" Jackson (and/or Sharpton) is with urban violence.

236 Gus  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:56:22am

re: #235 Talking Point Detective

BTW -

[Link: www.lasentinel.net...]

Get back to me when you've bothered to quantify how "concerned" Jackson (and/or Sharpton) is with urban violence.

Pwnd!

237 KronoGhazi  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:57:40am

re: #233 Adam, Eve and Steve

He denied that he meant black youths. But then what do S&J have to do with it? Derp.

He was giving Jackson and Sharpton encouragement on helping with gang violence. Because they need his encouragement!

238 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:58:14am

re: #227 Kronocide

Major fail dude. This didn't take long.

Go to freerepublic.com, enter 'Sharpton' in the search bar.

1st story, 6th comment that comes up:

2nd story, pretty much all the comments...

You're doing the same thing, although a kinder and gentler (more subversive) form of derp.

KILLGORE PLANTED IT!! ohwait//

239 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:59:06am

Both Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have long records of denouncing and demonstrating against black-on-black violence. The reason why this stupid right wing meme is so infuriating is because it's a blatant lie.

240 KronoGhazi  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:59:27am

KTPlant/execute/honcovirus:run.exe

241 KronoGhazi  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 9:59:57am

Written in htmLOL

242 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:04:39am

re: #239 Charles Johnson

Both Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have long records of denouncing and demonstrating against black-on-black violence. The reason why this stupid right wing meme is so infuriating is because it's a blatant lie.

It only shows that they have absolutely no idea what Jackson and Sharpton actually stand for, and why they are important figures in the black community.

And because some dopes need to have it said, that doesn't mean that I'm defending everything they do.

But with Jackson in particular, for the rightwing to co opt King's rhetoric and then attack Jackson without connecting his supposed "lack of concern" about conditions in the black community with his work in the civil rights movement, serves to underscore their own complete lack of honest concern about the conditions in black, urban communities.

Killgore undermines his own credibility with that shit. Hockey dude never had any, IMO.

243 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:08:24am

Somehow when I see b-sharp's new nick I can almost always say it's him.

244 KronoGhazi  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:08:26am

Sorry for being a little testy by this place seems a sane oasis in a sea of derp.

I got a little jumpy when some snuck in the front gate.

245 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:09:54am

And for now all is calm in Baghdad.

246 KronoGhazi  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:10:40am

War on Derp Objective Criticism of Jackson and Sharpton

247 b_snark  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:11:36am

re: #243 Adam, Eve and Steve

Somehow when I see b-sharp's new nick I can almost always say it's him.

Who's who?

248 KronoGhazi  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:11:45am

Not quite a kerfuffle... maybe a fuffle. Or a Kerf.

249 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:13:15am

Good thing I baked another batch of martyr cookies this morning.

re: #201 NJDhockeyfan

All you lefties on here brought up the race card. Not me. All I was suggesting was that these two so called civil rights leaders should go to Chicago and help out a nasty murder problem in the inner city.

CIVIL RIGHTS LEADERS, dummy. You're obviously too busy pinning yourself to a cross to notice that the men you're refering to are CIVIL RIGHTS LEADERS. That means that they deal with:

Civil and political rights are a class of rights that protect individuals' freedom from unwarranted infringement by governments and private organizations, and ensure one's ability to participate in the civil and political life of the state without discrimination or repression.

That you're trying to goad along this conversation by bitching about how they should be involved in a criminal situation without a civil rights angle suggests that maybe you're mimicking derp-herders on the right-wing sites for whom Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are professional Black Race-baiters.

And I'll wager a shit ton of money you can't name the local activists who are working on finding ways to intervene and organize people.

250 KronoGhazi  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:13:22am

Boehlert can get on long rolls with quips like this:

251 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:14:34am

re: #249 The Ghost of a Flea

Oh. Bingo.

252 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:14:38am

re: #249 The Ghost of a Flea

derp-herders!

253 b_snark  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:15:15am

Just to get my $.02 in, when Sharpton and Jackson bring some inequity to light they are doing something to reduce violence in not just Chicago but other communities by bringing focus to the underlying problems that are in major part the cause of violence.

254 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:16:36am

re: #175 Killgore Trout

Are you just ignorant of Jesse Jackson's career and how often he's gotten involved to protest gang violence?

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

[Link: newsone.com...]

[Link: www.commondreams.org...]

What's funny is how hard it is to search for the stories about the many, many times Jackson and Sharpton have protested gang violence, because of morons braying "Where are Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson?" any time there's any gang violence.

255 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:17:32am

re: #253 BoonGoggle


The "blame the agitators" meme is just so fucking old.

It was useful to see that clip the other day of Buckley blaming Baldwin's "radical" ideas as counterproductive to help remind me just how old and tired it is.

256 Gus  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:17:43am

re: #251 Adam, Eve and Steve

Oh. Bingo.

We should go with this one. ;)

257 KronoGhazi  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:18:01am

re: #249 The Ghost of a Flea

Coates pwnd Williams FTW.

258 wrenchwench  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:18:06am

Every time I've been involved with something civic-minded, I have encountered people who weren't involved in anything telling me, "What you people should be doing is..." and they fill in their personal, untouched agenda.

259 Gus  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:18:48am

re: #249 The Ghost of a Flea

Good thing I baked another batch of martyr cookies this morning.

CIVIL RIGHTS LEADERS, dummy. You're obviously too busy pinning yourself to a cross to notice that the men you're refering to are CIVIL RIGHTS LEADERS. That means that they deal with:

That you're trying to goad along this conversation by bitching about how they should be involved in a criminal situation without a civil rights angle suggests that maybe you're mimicking derp-herders on the right-wing sites for whom Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are professional Black Race-baiters.

And I'll wager a shit ton of money you can't name the local activists who are working on finding ways to intervene and organize people.

Well put.

260 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:20:02am

re: #257 Kronocide

Coates pwnd Williams FTW.

Ta-Nahesi Coates is awesome. He needs to compile his stuff about the Civil War and write a book.

261 Mich-again  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:21:23am

Denouncing violence and crime, no matter how loud you do it, doesn't accomplish a thing. The root of the problems go deep and they won't go away just because people make eloquent speeches. I think the most important thing is that young people need to see evidence of a realistic opportunity to pursue the American dream. If they make good decisions and do the right things, they really can move up in the world and improve their lives even if they were born into poverty.

There are some real things that the civil rights leaders have done with that purpose in mind. But the problem has been too many people already living in comfort don't necessarily want competition for that good life, so they work against policies that provide opportunities for the ones below.

262 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:21:32am

The idea that white people can lecture black civil rights leaders on what the real problems in the black community are is kind of silly, anyway. If some black leader wants to spend his life fighting against the racial prejudice in our justice system and never tackles black-on-black crime, so the fuck what? Why should he? Obviously the racism in the justice system is an important issue so what the hell is the matter with someone choosing to focus on that?

263 jaunte  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:21:36am

re: #249 The Ghost of a Flea

"There is a kind of sincere black person who really would like to see even more outrage about violence in black communities. I don't think outrage will do it at this point, but I respect the sincere feeling. And then there are pundits who write more than they read, and talk more than they listen, and prefer an easy creationism to a Google search."
-- Ta-Nehisi Coates

264 sattv4u2  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:23:13am

re: #245 Adam, Eve and Steve

And for now all is calm in Baghdad.

But not, sadly, in Homs

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

265 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:24:09am

OT: I am sure quite a few people already know about this: There is an extreme weather warning that has been issued by the Severe Weather Center in Norman Oklahoma. Here is my link to the page I made for it. [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

266 Sionainn  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:28:30am
267 Mich-again  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:29:36am

re: #262 Obdicut

Agreed. That reminds me of how some people who disagree with the political perspective on some blog complain that the blog doesn't post an equal number of stories pro and con on the subject. As if it is everyone's duty to present all sides of a topic, no matter how ridiculous the opposition's side may be.

268 Digital Display  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:39:29am

re: #265 PhillyPretzel

OT: I am sure quite a few people already know about this: There is an extreme weather warning that has been issued by the Severe Weather Center in Norman Oklahoma. Here is my link to the page I made for it. [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

They are saying it's going to be really bad. I guess about 4 hours from now it will hit us. It's a life threatening severe storm.
Unfortunately this will be the final day alive for some souls on this Earth

269 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:46:01am

re: #268 HoosierHoops

Prayers and best wishes for all in the path. Nature is not to be trifled with. At least it's daytime and well publicized.

[Link: www.spc.noaa.gov...]

270 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 10:47:11am

re: #268 HoosierHoops

I prefer to be positive. Fore warned is fore armed. Since you now have the knowledge that something is going to happen you can get to a safe place and wait out the storms.

271 sda112  Sat, Apr 14, 2012 3:49:44pm

I realize this is probably a dead thread but the discussion about the violence in Chicago got my attention. For the last 20 years and continuing today, I spend quite a bit of time in these neighborhoods for my job (fed law enforcement). The vast majority of violence in this city happens in less than 10 neighborhoods. Engelwood and Roseland on the south side are particularly bad; and Austin, Lawndale and Garfield Park, on the west side are equally rough. Pilsen and Little Village also have their share of violence.

The violence is devastating not only to the victims, family and friends but to the surrounding community. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy-too much violence scares away businesses and productive members of society who might otherwise live there, thereby depleting the tax base. The schools suffer with a lower tax base (Illinois schools are funded by property taxes which are obviously lower in violence stricken areas) which results in the kids in the communities are getting substandard education, so on and so forth.

In many of these communities, literally the only businesses are liquor stores, pawn shops, and a few convenience mart grocery stores. The employment opportunities are non-existent and in some of these areas, up to 75% of the men are either on probation, currently incarcerated, or on parole.

This is obviously hugely exacerbated by drugs. The gangs in Chicago control the drug trade. You don't sell drugs in this city unless you are either a gang member or paying them a street tax in order to do so. Crack cocaine literally destroyed lots of these neighborhoods and more recently, a huge upsurge in heroin use has thrown gas on the fire.

No one has easy answers to these problems. I am not a fan of Jessie Jackson but he, and his organization, Operation Push, have spent inordinate amounts of time, money and energy in this city trying to get people to deal with the violence. To suggest otherwise is either ignorant or disingenuous.

Sorry this is long and rambling, but as I see the devastation in these neighborhoods every day, this is a subject near and dear to my heart. It's awful because there are many good people in these neighborhoods just trying to do what all of the rest of us are trying to do...live, be happy, raise kids, so on an so forth.


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