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Tech Note: New Embedded Videos for Comments: Comedy Central, The Onion, MSNBC

Just paste in the URL
LGF • Views: 31,241

This weekend we’ve added several new video formats to the types of videos you can easily embed in comments you post at LGF.

We’ve long had the ability to embed YouTube or Vimeo videos simply by pasting in the URL of the video’s web page, but now you can do the same thing with many videos from Comedy Central, including Colbert Report and South Park, videos from FunnyOrDie.com and The Onion, and MSNBC videos from any of their shows; just go to the individual web page where the video lives, copy the URL from your browser’s address line, and paste it into a comment. It will be automatically converted into a video button in your comment, which expands into the video when clicked.

Unfortunately, the web pages for Comedy Central’s The Daily Show with Jon Stewart do not include the video ID in their URLs, so you can’t just paste in the address for those. You can still embed those videos with a little more work, though. Just start the video playing, click the “Embed” link at the top to copy the embed code to your clipboard, then paste it somewhere to look at it (in a text editor or comment posting form). The URL you need out of this block of code is the IFRAME’s source attribute (the web address in quotes after “src=”); copy that and paste it into a comment without all the rest of the embedding code, and you’re good to go.

UPDATE at 4/15/12 3:48:24 pm

You can now disregard that last paragraph, and embed The Daily Show videos the same way you do all the others, by pasting in the video’s web page URL.

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253 comments

1 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:01:53pm

Testing Meet The Press:

2 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:03:18pm

Thank you, Charles. LGF engine gets better and better. It's certainly one of the most user-friendly discussion platforms I've used.

3 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:05:23pm

Awesome!

4 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:08:32pm

re: #2 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

Thank you, Charles. LGF engine gets better and better. It's certainly one of the most user-friendly discussion platforms I've used.

Indeed. I can't wait for the page posting limit to be implemented.

BTW, I like your current nic. It sounds like the title of a 1001 Nights story. ;)

5 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:09:17pm

re: #4 CuriousLurker

Indeed. I can't wait for the page posting limit to be implemented.

Bwahahaha. *evil grin*

BTW, I like your current nic. It sounds like the title of a 1001 Nights story. ;)

Google it ;)

6 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:10:48pm

And now, The Onion too:

7 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:11:19pm

Heh, we have a stalker who has just registered.

8 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:13:09pm

Small bug there, reload and everything will be fine.

9 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:15:27pm

re: #5 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

Google it ;)

Ha! No wonder it has such an interesting title.

10 Kragar  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:16:27pm

Poll: Interest In Tea Party Wanes, Particularly Among Women

Interest in the Tea Party is down from previous years, according to a new Washington Post/ABC News Poll. While support for the Tea Party remains relatively unchanged from a year ago, an increasing number of Americans are uninterested in learning more about it. In addition, more Americans say that the more they learn about the Tea Party, the less they like it: “Six in 10 Americans now say they’re not interested in learning more about the tea party, and half say they like it less the more they hear about it, both up from two years ago.”

The shift is particularly pronounced among women.

11 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:16:31pm

re: #7 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

This Guy?
I think he makes an excellent point and was observant enough to notice something nobody else on the thread noticed. I think it's a superb first comment.

12 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:18:03pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

This Guy?

No.

13 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:20:27pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

I feel pretty safe in saying that Sergey's comment wasn't based on anything said, but rather on the nic chosen.

14 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:21:07pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

It's a relatively trivial point; yes, our society is 'sexist' in the assumption that talking about an individual needing the 'dignity of work' while raising a child is generally a woman, but, factually, it's true.

83.1% of single parents are mothers.

And, as I said to you in that thread, it has very little relevance for the current discussion about Romney's positions and attitudes towards working mothers; Romney stated that Ann Romney gives him a connection to working mothers. That's the context which you've usually refused to deal with in the last couple of threads.

15 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:22:16pm

re: #13 CuriousLurker

Besides, there is no indication that this j guy is a stalker, so I wouldn't state it as a fact.

16 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:22:45pm

re: #10 Kragar

Poll: Interest In Tea Party Wanes, Particularly Among Women

Wonder if this is why we're seeing increasing hostility to the Tea Party at the state and local level, as demonstrated by folks like Walker and Snyder, who rode the TP wave into office and are now facing recall votes.

17 Jerk  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:22:51pm

Every TDS page has a link to an mp4 file. For instance this page:

[Link: www.thedailyshow.com...]

Has this file in HQ (warning! 70mb!)

And this file in low quality (18mb):

And a lot more in between. Don't know if this helps at all, just thought that I'd share.

18 wrenchwench  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:23:25pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

This Guy?
I think he makes an excellent point and was observant enough to notice something nobody else on the thread noticed. I think it's a superb first comment.

And you assume it's a 'he' and a 'guy'?

That's the kind of thing the comment was about.

19 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:27:38pm

re: #7 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

Heh, we have a stalker who has just registered.

Why would you assume that name like "Sir Ghey The Kissass" is a stalker? It could be a troll or a sockpuppet, you know. With an IP address in Mexico, yet.

20 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:27:56pm

re: #17 Jerk

How do you retrieve it?

21 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:28:59pm

re: #19 Charles Johnson

I even suspect which of those deranged racist pink slimes that one is ;)

22 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:29:01pm

And now, the dreaded Patterico post on Killgore Trout's night of infamy that will live forever in the right wing pantheon of stupid:

23 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:31:00pm

re: #22 Charles Johnson

LOL@"Hm. Does Charles Johnson know that the guy on Twitter famous for using the #winning tag was actually a huge loser whom everyone was laughing at?"

Is Pathetico too dense or what? /

24 wrenchwench  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:31:29pm

re: #21 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

I even suspect which of those deranged racist pink slimes finely textured bullshiters that one is ;)

FTFY. :)

25 TedStriker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:32:00pm

re: #22 Charles Johnson

And now, the dreaded Patterico post on Killgore Trout's night of infamy that will live forever in the right wing pantheon of stupid:

[Embedded content]

Patterico can just go soak his head and wash that stupid outta his hair.

26 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:32:38pm

re: #22 Charles Johnson
From his post...

Indeed, one of Johnson’s buddies (with whom he is still friendly) actually admitted planting racist comments at Hot Air in 2009. Specifically, in September 2009, trusted LGF Lieutenant Killgore Trout went over to Hot Air in the middle of the night to plant some racist comments.

Heh

27 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:33:01pm

re: #22 Charles Johnson

I think the best way for you to deal with this is put all of those comments in a post, because from their very nature it is clear that nothing was planted. Seeing is believing.

28 TedStriker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:33:42pm

re: #27 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

I think the best way for you to deal with this is put all of those comments in a post, because from their very nature it is clear that nothing was planted. Seeing is believing.

The question is: has HA purged their history that far back?

Of course, it wouldn't matter if we had a time machine and tried to show these chuckleheads exactly what was going on, because they know their base. Racism and bigotry gets a lot of play with the RWNJs and the "conservative" muckety-mucks and pundits aren't going to bite the hand that feeds them.

29 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:34:41pm

re: #28 GnarlyGnomeOfGnowledge

The question is: has HA purged their history that far back?

If you mean if these comments are still available, they are, in lotsa places.

30 jaunte  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:34:51pm

re: #22 Charles Johnson

They still won't post even a censored version of Killgore's original comments (in which he clearly identified himself and why he was posting outrageously racist stuff) because it would undermine the whole "planted" comments pretense.

31 wrenchwench  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:35:33pm

re: #22 Charles Johnson

So I decided to confront him with this recently on Twitter.

That made me laugh.

32 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:35:35pm

OT Update: My Brother and I have finished our discussion of the inheritance coming.. He and his wife and kids will own the family home without buying me out and I'm going to quit work and move into the Lake home. It's a pretty cool place that sleeps 10, has a nice fishing boat and beautiful woods on the property. For 40 years my mom and dad fixed the place up really nice. I'm pretty dang excited about not working later this year and hanging out fishing with Winston and all the old buddies coming over and hanging out. I'm going home Lizards! Thank you Mom and Dad.

33 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:35:45pm

re: #27 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

I think the best way for you to deal with this is put all of those comments in a post, because from their very nature it is clear that nothing was planted. Seeing is believing.

Meh. There's no point in responding to this - it won't change anything. Patterico doesn't care about the reality, he's just going for the smear; he already knows nothing was "planted." This is one of those unalterable right wing fairytales about me that is beyond reason.

34 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:35:53pm

re: #27 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

I think the best way for you to deal with this is put all of those comments in a post, because from their very nature it is clear that nothing was planted. Seeing is believing.

Last I checked they had deleted the all the previous wookie and racist comments from the real native Hot Air readers that appeared early on the thread.

35 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:37:15pm

re: #33 Charles Johnson

It will change things for less deranged, more neutral observers.

36 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:37:19pm

re: #28 GnarlyGnomeOfGnowledge

The question is: has HA purged their history that far back?

They have an automated word filter now so I'm pretty sure all the old wookie comments have been scrubbed.

37 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:37:34pm

re: #34 Killgore Trout

Last I checked they had deleted the all the previous wookie and racist comments from the real native Hot Air readers that appeared early on the thread.

Of course they did.

38 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:39:03pm

re: #10 Kragar

Gee, I wonder why?

///Not enough in the world.

39 Jerk  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:42:49pm

re: #20 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

How do you retrieve it?

I think it is some javascript that scans the page. The naming scheme for files is random.

40 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:45:59pm

re: #22 Charles Johnson

And now, the dreaded Patterico post on Killgore Trout's night of infamy that will live forever in the right wing pantheon of stupid:

Yeah, it's cute how he makes excuses for why nobody was moderating the site at that hour, then applauds the mods for making the wookie comments disappear within an hour. Funny how that works, huh?

41 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:46:51pm

re: #39 Jerk

I think it is some javascript that scans the page. The naming scheme for files is random.

Well, I didn't find them in the source.

42 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:50:29pm

re: #32 HoosierHoops

I am so happy right now realizing I'm going back home...
My theme song right now is playing at 11..Dancing..Tears..Yes tears..I'm not even a little ashamed..Join me in Home..Turn it up!

43 Jerk  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:51:52pm

re: #41 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

Check this. The javascript finds the mp4 file and inserts it into the webpage. I'm not sure the directory for them (they are in the Finder), but there's one for TDS for sure.

[Link: hoyois.github.com...]

44 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:52:15pm

re: #35 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

It will change things for less deranged, more neutral observers.

I don't think anyone cares about this except the wingnut audience he wrote it for. It happened years ago and it's been rehashed so many times I'm utterly bored with it.

45 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:53:12pm

re: #42 HoosierHoops

You kept up a great attitude where you were, man, but I could tell you were missing the golden hills of Napa.

What does this mean for you and your special ladyfriend?

46 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 3:09:13pm

re: #45 Obdicut

You kept up a great attitude where you were, man, but I could tell you were missing the golden hills of Napa.

What does this mean for you and your special ladyfriend?

We talk..She is one of the most special lady have ever met.. Just amazing.
We are adults..Her life is here..family..great job..nice house.(Thus the reason for some of those tears )
We are going to the lake house this summer for a little vacation..I have a secret plan..My love for her and an awesome Lake house and boat and property that horses graze on....
But if not..she will always be my friend

47 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 3:10:05pm

re: #46 HoosierHoops

Sounds like a good plan, and a realistic plan. Nice that you can be stars-in-your-eyes and sensible at the same time.

48 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 3:35:54pm

re: #47 Obdicut

Sounds like a good plan, and a realistic plan. Nice that you can be stars-in-your-eyes and sensible at the same time.

Thank you..It means a lot to me..
much love

49 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 3:37:49pm

re: #48 HoosierHoops

By the way, book recommendation for you: Red Sky At Morning.

You remind me of the hero, and I think it'd make you laugh.

50 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 3:45:27pm

Testing Jon Stewart embedding:

51 TedStriker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 3:46:47pm

re: #50 Charles Johnson

Testing Jon Stewart embedding:

[Embedded content]

Coming in five-by-five.

52 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 3:47:41pm

re: #50 Charles Johnson

Alright!

But how?

53 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 3:49:15pm

You can now embed the Daily Show videos the same way you do all the others, just by pasting the URL of the page. No more messing with that nasty embed code.

54 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 3:55:03pm

re: #53 Charles Johnson

How do you look up ID?

55 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 4:00:04pm

re: #54 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

How do you look up ID?

By reading the source of the page and extracting the 'og:video' meta tag.

56 Gus  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 4:09:58pm

[Link: www.hbo.com...]

57 Charleston Chew  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 4:15:11pm
58 Gus  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 4:15:29pm

[Link: www.hbo.com...]

59 Charleston Chew  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 4:15:36pm

re: #57 Charleston Chew

Oops. I did it wrong.

60 Charleston Chew  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 4:20:41pm

Another test.

61 Gus  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 4:22:55pm
62 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 4:26:43pm

re: #26 Killgore Trout

From his post...

Heh

I think you need to change your nic to "Trusted LGF Lieutenant Killgore Trout".

63 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 4:38:19pm

re: #25 GnarlyGnomeOfGnowledge

Patterico can just go soak his head and wash that stupid outta his hair.

The problem is that his stupid lies at the very roots. He is physically unable to admit Killgore got the better of him.

64 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 4:40:55pm

re: #44 Charles Johnson

I don't think anyone cares about this except the wingnut audience he wrote it for. It happened years ago and it's been rehashed so many times I'm utterly bored with it.

Quite Concur. Charles and Killgore put the truth out often enough. Trying to match a monomaniacal hater post-for-post is like mud wrestling with a pig: It leaves you tired and dirty and the pig likes it.

65 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 4:45:59pm
66 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 4:48:45pm

Charles thanks for the cool tools. You keep on improving LGF.

67 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 4:53:25pm

Don't know if this one has been posted here before:

A liberal, a conservative and a moderate walk into a bar and bartender says, Hey Mitt!

68 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 4:53:33pm

OK, and now I'm reconsidering, because I see that I've never actually addressed this fake "planted comments" fairytale in an LGF post. Maybe if I spell it out one time in a post, then I'd at least have something I could point to when these freaking morons start up again with this shit.

69 Gus  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 4:55:07pm
70 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 4:55:19pm

re: #68 Charles Johnson

Maybe if I spell it out one time in a post, then I'd at least have something I could point to when these freaking morons start up again with this shit.

...and the lazy-ass "durr, hurr, both sides to do it" media accepts their twatwafflery at face value :/

71 allegro  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 4:56:30pm

re: #70 Interesting Times

...and the lazy-ass "durr, hurr, both sides to do it" media accepts their twatwafflery at face value :/

Any relation to pecksniffery?

72 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 4:57:13pm

re: #68 Charles Johnson

Good decision. I also see there is some pushback in the comments there. Pathetico even admits to a commenter:

I had only heard those comments described before; my evidence was Ace’s post. Yet you claim to know I “intentionally” misstated the facts — as if you knew I had seen the comments (I hadn’t) and chose to “lie” about them.

73 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 4:57:25pm

re: #69 Gus

You have to get the URL from the video's individual page... the one you posted is from somewhere else.

74 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 4:59:23pm

re: #68 Charles Johnson

OK, and now I'm reconsidering, because I see that I've never actually addressed this fake "planted comments" fairytale in an LGF post. Maybe if I spell it out one time in a post, then I'd at least have something I could point to when these freaking morons start up again with this shit.

It will be a waste of time in any real sense. As you indicated earlier, pointing to facts won't affect them in the least. I think that any serious response only somehow encourages them. Better to just go with straight up ridicule, IMO.

75 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 4:59:32pm

I got a kick out of this tweet:

76 Gus  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 4:59:45pm

re: #73 Charles Johnson

You have to get the URL from the video's individual page... the one you posted is from somewhere else.

Yeah. I noticed that. Thought it worked there for a second.

77 jaunte  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:00:50pm

re: #72 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

"I had only heard those comments described"

An actual Assistant District Attorney, evaluating evidence.

78 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:01:27pm

re: #77 jaunte

An actual Assistant District Attorney, evaluating evidence.

"Hearsay Exception!!!1" /

79 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:01:35pm

re: #68 Charles Johnson

OK, and now I'm reconsidering, because I see that I've never actually addressed this fake "planted comments" fairytale in an LGF post. Maybe if I spell it out one time in a post, then I'd at least have something I could point to when these freaking morons start up again with this shit.

If you address the issue of planted comments, then we can bring up the issue of hydroponic comments.

80 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:03:24pm

How long did the last troll last? Was it the record?

81 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:05:55pm

The classic passive-aggressive post from Glenn Reynolds:

[Link: pjmedia.com...]

A CAUTIONARY EXAMPLE for bloggers of all stripes.

82 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:06:26pm

re: #74 Talking Point Detective

It will be a waste of time in any real sense. As you indicated earlier, pointing to facts won't affect them in the least. I think that any serious response only somehow encourages them. Better to just go with straight up ridicule, IMO.

Who says you can't do that while pointing out facts at the same time? It's practically the entire premise of The Daily Show & Colbert.

83 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:06:37pm

re: #80 Decatur Deb

How long did the last troll last? Was it the record?

Which one was the last troll? I haven't seen one since 'Brain Surfer' wiped out.

84 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:08:28pm

A 'Sir Ghey" appeared in Spy, a couple minutes ago, seems born dead. Small loss, I think.

85 Four More Tears  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:09:48pm

re: #83 Dark_Falcon

Which one was the last troll? I haven't seen one since 'Brain Surfer' wiped out.

Image: 65cx.jpg

86 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:10:51pm

re: #74 Talking Point Detective

It will be a waste of time in any real sense. As you indicated earlier, pointing to facts won't affect them in the least. I think that any serious response only somehow encourages them. Better to just go with straight up ridicule, IMO.

I disagree. It's the ridiculing that engages them and allows them to spew more, IMO. If Charles writes a post about it—especially without mentioning any of the spewers by name (therefore depriving them of attention)—where he simply lays out the facts and addresses why he reacted the way he did, then he can just point to it in the future, as he said.

A serious response won't change their opinions or behavior, but it'll rob them of the ongoing schoolyard fun they seem to be having issuing double dog dares and other such nonsense. It's like, "Okay, here's my response. I'm now done with this subject once and for all and moving on to more current, important events. End of story."

87 Gus  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:11:50pm

re: #81 Charles Johnson

The classic passive-aggressive post from Glenn Reynolds:

[Link: pjmedia.com...]

Actually. Dave Weigel uses #winning all the time.

88 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:12:07pm

re: #84 Decatur Deb

A 'Sir Ghey" appeared in Spy, a couple minutes ago, seems born dead. Small loss, I think.

My own fan club. At last! *wipes the tears of joy*

89 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:12:17pm

re: #84 Decatur Deb

A 'Sir Ghey" appeared in Spy, a couple minutes ago, seems born dead. Small loss, I think.

that one started downdinging, which is a dead giveaway. Just a mindless hater, that one. Those really here to troll tend to start off quieter, in order to allay suspicion.

90 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:14:52pm

re: #89 Dark_Falcon

that one started downdinging, which is a dead giveaway. Just a mindless hater, that one. Those really here to troll tend to start off quieter, in order to allay suspicion.

"Hi! I'm new here, and I just love to read the comments. You guys are awesome."

Next Post: "Is anyone concerned about the cutting of premium chocolate with wax and pencil shavings? That sure has me worried. Obama isn't doing anything about it."

91 Lidane  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:15:24pm

Cuba issue deals blow to US stature at 'Summit of the Americas'

Unprecedented Latin American opposition to U.S. sanctions on communist Cuba left President Barack Obama isolated at the Summit of the Americas on Sunday and illustrated Washington's waning influence in the region.

Can we just admit that the Cuban embargo is an idiotic Cold War relic and failure that serves no purpose anymore? We should be doing the exact opposite -- opening Cuba up to trade and tourism and flooding them with dollars. It would go a lot farther in dismantling their communist government than 50 years of sanctions have accomplished.

92 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:15:34pm

re: #89 Dark_Falcon

that one started downdinging, which is a dead giveaway. Just a mindless hater, that one. Those really here to troll tend to start off quieter, in order to allay suspicion.

Yeah--not a real troll, more like a cross between a kamikaze and a National League streaker.

93 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:15:41pm

re: #86 CuriousLurker

I disagree. It's the ridiculing engages them and allows them to spew more, IMO. If Charles writes a post about it—especially without mentioning any of the spewers by name (therefore depriving them of attention)—where he simply lays out the facts and addresses why he reacted the way he did, then he can just point to it in the future, as he said.

A serious response won't change their opinions or behavior, but it'll rob them of the ongoing schoolyard fun they seem to be having issuing double dog dares and other such nonsense. It's like, "Okay, here's my response. I'm now done with this subject once and for all and moving on to more current, important events. End of story."

Indeed, just like the Troll Hammer of old. Next time one brings it up and starts pressing for "answers," just point to it and say "That's all I have to say on the subject. Take it or leave it."

94 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:15:48pm

re: #88 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

::: passing tissues to ... excuse me but what is your name today? ::::

95 wrenchwench  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:16:13pm

re: #87 Gus

Actually. Dave Weigel uses #winning all the time.

Reinforces the point, no?

/

96 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:16:31pm

re: #89 Dark_Falcon

that one started downdinging, which is a dead giveaway.

I wonder if it would be trivial from an LGF coding perspective to wipe out the "dings" of blocked users, the same way comments are deleted - then all their effort is doubly for naught :P

97 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:17:18pm

re: #68 Charles Johnson

OK, and now I'm reconsidering, because I see that I've never actually addressed this fake "planted comments" fairytale in an LGF post. Maybe if I spell it out one time in a post, then I'd at least have something I could point to when these freaking morons start up again with this shit.

If you'd like to do it go for it. If you want to take a few shots at me in the process I'll (probably) have no complaints. It's all good.

98 Gus  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:18:22pm

re: #81 Charles Johnson

The classic passive-aggressive post from Glenn Reynolds:

[Link: pjmedia.com...]

Need to work on a page regarding what we were messaging each other yesterday. Let me know if you need any help.

99 TedStriker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:20:31pm

re: #93 Targetpractice

Indeed, just like the Troll Hammer of old. Next time one brings it up and starts pressing for "answers," just point to it and say "That's all I have to say on the subject. Take it or leave it."

Nothing against the Troll Hammer, but didn't Nekama go full wingnut when they returned after Obama was elected or am I tripping?

100 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:21:46pm

re: #99 GnarlyGnomeOfGnowledge

Upding for the screen name.

101 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:21:59pm

re: #99 GnarlyGnomeOfGnowledge

Nothing against the Troll Hammer, but didn't Nekama (?) go full wingnut when they returned after Obama was elected or am I tripping?

Wouldn't know, I was on hiatus until 'round mid-2010. By then, the majority of the flouncing had come and gone.

102 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:22:31pm

re: #100 PhillyPretzel

Upding for the screen name.

Seconded.

103 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:23:15pm

re: #99 GnarlyGnomeOfGnowledge

Nothing against the Troll Hammer, but didn't Nekama (?) go full wingnut when they returned after Obama was elected or am I tripping?

He wingnutted.

104 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:23:22pm

re: #99 GnarlyGnomeOfGnowledge

Nothing against the Troll Hammer, but didn't Nekhama go full wingnut when they returned after Obama was elected or am I tripping?

Troll Hammer was a repetition of talking points, some true, some dumb. The key point about it was the open use of the word "Kora*imals".

105 TedStriker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:23:41pm

re: #100 PhillyPretzel

Upding for the screen name.

re: #102 CuriousLurker

Seconded.

[Elvis]Thank ya, thank you very much...[/Elvis]

106 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:23:59pm

re: #102 CuriousLurker

What do you think of the Tarek Mehenna thing going on? I'm not sure how to feel on it, but I get the feeling the guy is a snake.

107 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:24:05pm
108 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:24:07pm

re: #101 Targetpractice

Wouldn't know, I was on hiatus until 'round mid-2010. By then, the majority of the flouncing had come and gone.

Oh, wow. I didn't realize you were one of the OLD old timers. Never paid any attention to that part of your profile, heh.

109 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:25:08pm

re: #104 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

Troll Hammer was a repetition of talking points, some true, some dumb. The key point about it was the open use of the word "Kora*imals".

Ugh.

110 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:26:46pm

re: #108 CuriousLurker

Oh, wow. I didn't realize you were one of the OLD old timers. Never paid any attention to that part of your profile, heh.

Yeah, I'm one of the few dinosaurs still stomping around, though I have a large gap in my resume, from 'round mid-'05 til mid-'10. Between college and my job, I wasn't home often enough to post. And when I was, I just couldn't work up the energy to try to keep up with the pace.

Probably better that I wasn't around for the Great Flouncing, because at the time, I probably would have ended up as one of those on the Wall of Shame.

111 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:26:52pm

re: #99 GnarlyGnomeOfGnowledge

Nothing against the Troll Hammer, but didn't Nekhama go full wingnut when they returned after Obama was elected or am I tripping?

Yes, he did, but it does not invalidate the Troll Hammer. It just means he got banned. He didn't go stalker, though, so I feel the TH is still good.

112 ReamWorks SKG  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:27:12pm

If you're in a discussion forum and you don't know who the troll is, it's you!

113 Gus  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:27:14pm

re: #104 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

Troll Hammer was a repetition of talking points, some true, some dumb. The key point about it was the open use of the word "Kora*imals".

Oh. Damn I never knew that. All I know was that he kind of a freakish fellow as are almost all of those "anti-Jihad" douche bags.

114 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:27:37pm

re: #109 CuriousLurker

I would like to hear your opinion on that issue, from an Muslim with more experience.

115 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:27:37pm

re: #106 ProGunLiberal

What do you think of the Tarek Mehenna thing going on? I'm not sure how to feel on it, but I get the feeling the guy is a snake.

I haven't been following the story, so I don't have any thoughts on it. Sorry.

116 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:28:21pm

re: #113 Gus

[Link: www.google.com...]

117 Gus  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:29:07pm

re: #116 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

[Link: www.google.com...]

I won't look. Remember what I was talking about this morning? Well, I'm a lot more left on that issue then I let on. Fuck those people.

118 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:29:10pm

re: #110 Targetpractice

Probably better that I wasn't around for the Great Flouncing, because at the time, I probably would have ended up as one of those on the Wall of Shame.

Well, in that case I'm glad you went MIA fro an extended period. ;)

119 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:29:16pm

re: #116 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

Oops, LGF engine eated the word inside the URL.

Here it is:
[Link: www.google.com...]

120 ReamWorks SKG  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:30:55pm

Ok! I'm off to Vegas for NAB! If any of you all will be there, drop me a line.
(I generally post to LGF only from airports! Right now I'm at SJC.)

121 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:31:13pm

re: #104 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

Troll Hammer was a repetition of talking points, some true, some dumb. The key point about it was the open use of the word "Kora*imals".

That last word was problematic, but I didn't see as such when I first registered back in 2007.

122 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:31:25pm

re: #118 CuriousLurker

Well, in that case I'm glad you went MIA fro an extended period. ;)

As am I. If anything, I have the post-GF LGF to thank for waking me up to the reality of the shit I was saying. I was a wingnut, I'm not proud to admit it, but LGF helped me face that and get past it.

123 EdDantes  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:31:29pm

re: #1 Charles Johnson

Where's Lawrence Spivak?

124 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:32:54pm

re: #117 Gus

I won't look. Remember what I was talking about this morning? Well, I'm a lot more left on that issue then I let on. Fuck those people.

Well, you know, what I said about the ugliness from *both* sides.

125 TedStriker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:33:46pm

re: #111 Dark_Falcon

Yes, he did, but it does not invalidate the Troll Hammer. It just means he got banned. He didn't go stalker, though, so I feel the TH is still good.

The fact that they felt the need to use "Kora*imals" in the Troll Hammer says all that needs to be said. Granted, it was a different time at LGF then, but it shouldn't have been acceptable amongst Lizards then and isn't acceptable now, as evidenced by the [bigoted words] filter Charles had to put together Swiss-cheesing the TH.

126 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:34:12pm

re: #122 Targetpractice

As am I. If anything, I have the post-GF LGF to thank for waking me up to the reality of the shit I was saying. I was a wingnut, I'm not proud to admit it, but LGF helped me face that and get past it.

Although I was never really a wingnut, I did entertain ideas and tolerate shit i shouldn't have. Which is also why I'm not going moonbat. I've been there and done that and I'm not falling for the same crap again.

127 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:34:50pm

re: #122Targetpractice

As am I. If anything, I have the post-GF LGF to thank for waking me up to the reality of the shit I was saying. I was a wingnut, I'm not proud to admit it, but LGF helped me face that and get past it.

{{{Targetpractice}}}

128 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:34:53pm

re: #126 Killgore Trout

Although I was never really a wingnut, I did entertain ideas and tolerate shit i shouldn't have. Which is also why I'm not going moonbat. I've been there and done that and I'm not falling for the same crap again.

C'mon. We have free love and arugula. ///

129 Gus  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:35:09pm

re: #124 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

Well, you know, what I said about the ugliness from *both* sides.

I'm making a pizza and going outside for a smoke.

130 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:35:18pm

re: #126 Killgore Trout

Although I was never really a wingnut, I did entertain ideas and tolerate shit i shouldn't have. Which is also why I'm not going moonbat. I've been there and done that and I'm not falling for the same crap again.

I wouldn't say I've gone moonbat either, though I've come to realize that a lot of shit that I used to consider "moonbat" makes sense in retrospect. No, I don't think they are right about everything, but I should have been more critical in my thinking then than I was.

131 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:36:55pm

re: #126 Killgore Trout

Although I was never really a wingnut, I did entertain ideas and tolerate shit i shouldn't have.

Given your willingness to opine about the way that Jesse Jackson ought to concern himself with black-on-black violence, the past tense there might be a bit optimistic.

And your support for torture.

132 TedStriker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:37:27pm

re: #130 Targetpractice

I wouldn't say I've gone moonbat either, though I've come to realize that a lot of shit that I used to consider "moonbat" makes sense in retrospect. No, I don't think they are right about everything, but I should have been more critical in my thinking then than I was.

Right or left, batshit crazy is batshit crazy; it's just all the in-between stuff that causes most people issues.

133 Kragar  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:38:35pm

re: #126 Killgore Trout

Although I was never really a wingnut, I did entertain ideas and tolerate shit i shouldn't have. Which is also why I'm not going moonbat. I've been there and done that and I'm not falling for the same crap again.

To quote the great Slim Pickens, "Ditto."

134 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:40:07pm

re: #111 Dark_Falcon

Yes, he did, but it does not invalidate the Troll Hammer. It just means he got banned. He didn't go stalker, though, so I feel the TH is still good.

I would not recommend the TH without some editing.

135 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:40:08pm

So, it's a down the memory lane time? I held some pretty weird views once upon a time, some of them pretty bad. Wasn't always an atheist and a liberal, although wasn't a conservative either. But then, I was a kid when I had those ;) Also, I only became convinced about AGW only a few years ago, but not because I was a denier but because I was like "I don't know what the real consensus is, gotta look it up later".

136 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:40:38pm

re: #125 GnarlyGnomeOfGnowledge

The fact that they felt the need to use "Kora*imals" in the Troll Hammer says all that needs to be said. Granted, it was a different time at LGF then, but it shouldn't have been acceptable amongst Lizards then and isn't acceptable now, as evidenced by the [bigoted words] filter Charles had to put together Swiss-cheesing the TH.

Lots more people said that then. I'd say that there are fewer Muslim-haters in 2012 than there were in 2004, but the ones who still hate are much nastier now. But that's one man's opinion, make of it what you will.

137 TedStriker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:41:38pm

re: #133 Kragar

To quote the great Slim Pickens, "Ditto."

What are you, a provincial putz?

///

138 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:41:46pm

re: #136 Dark_Falcon

Lots more people said that then. I'd say that there are fewer Muslim-haters in 2012 than there were in 2004, but the ones who still hate are much nastier now. But that's one man's opinion, make of it what you will.

The hate still exists, it's just been redirected.

139 TedStriker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:42:34pm

re: #138 Targetpractice

The hate still exists, it's just been redirected.

Much of it towards President Obama and family.

140 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:42:53pm

re: #135 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

Yeah, long time ago before I got more into science, I figured that global warming was iffy because it matched up with too many other scenarios that I'd heard from rather fringe people, like peak oil (not that, without AGW, we wouldn't have some 'peak oil' moment, but that it would somehow suddenly cause catastrophe rather than forcing adaptation to new technology.)

I regret that. If I'd really understood AGW as a yout, I would have followed a career path that would have better positioned me to do work on the subject.

141 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:44:25pm

re: #136 Dark_Falcon

Lots more people said that then. I'd say that there are fewer Muslim-haters in 2012 than there were in 2004, but the ones who still hate are much nastier now. But that's one man's opinion, make of it what you will.

I think there are also some who still hate Muslims as much as they ever did, but they've learned to keep it under wraps. Just barely.

142 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:44:32pm

re: #108 CuriousLurker

Oh, wow. I didn't realize you were one of the OLD old timers. Never paid any attention to that part of your profile, heh.

There are still some of us around. We have adapted to the environment, evolved!

143 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:45:43pm

re: #142 Learned Mother of Zion

There are still some of us around. We have adapted to the environment, evolved!

Those who didn't turned back into ... newts. /

144 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:46:16pm

re: #142 Learned Mother of Zion

There are still some of us around. We have adapted to the environment, evolved!

Wow, you too! ;)

145 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:46:36pm

re: #140 Obdicut

And when I was younger, I used to be a libertarian, too. Then I started thinking things through.

146 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:47:09pm

I believed in some supernatural stuff. Mind boggles ;)

147 Shvaughn  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:48:22pm

When I was younger I thought I had to be a conservative, then I gave up on evangelical Christianity. Then I thought I must be a moderate since I wasn't crazy -- one of those "truth is somewhere in the middle" believers -- until I realized that I agreed with 99% of what the liberals were saying.

148 Gus  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:48:26pm

Frey can complain all he want about Killgore's ill tempered stunt. One fact remains and that's that the right-wing is populated with bigots of all stripes covering every type of identity on the planet. The comments he speaks of that Charles has harvested in the past revealing stark naked racism of the right wing is real.

Those are just the commentators. The connections with American Renaissance are very real. They are not imagined. Two people were fired within the past two including one in which I was instrumental in exposing, Robert Weissberg. Then you have Vdare which is an outright white supremacists, white nationalist, heritage peoples, or whatever you want to call it, organization.

The summary groups are:

• Alternative Right
• American Renaissance
• National Policy Institute
• VDARE

149 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:48:38pm

re: #146 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

I believed in some supernatural stuff. Mind boggles ;)

*raises hand* Conspiracy nut, right here.

150 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:49:42pm

re: #148 Gus

Kevin McDonald - VDARE - Malkin Superstar

151 Lidane  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:49:43pm

As long as we're reminiscing, I've pretty much always been liberal, even as a kid. I read Ayn Rand in my early 20's and tried to pretend that it was profound and meant something. I even read quite a few libertarian books by David Boaz of the Cato Institute, but the politics never stuck. I just couldn't be that selfish, and all the libertarians and Objectivists I knew at the time were sexist douchebags that I didn't want to deal with.

Grew up Catholic, but as I got older my beliefs slowly died. By middle school I had serious doubts, and by the time I graduated high school I was done with organized religion altogether.

I'd call myself center-left. I'm not a far left raving moonbat, but no one will ever mistake me for a conservative.

152 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:51:46pm

re: #135 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

So, it's a down the memory lane time? I held some pretty weird views once upon a time, some of them pretty bad. Wasn't always an atheist and a liberal, although wasn't a conservative either. But then, I was a kid when I had those ;) Also, I only became convinced about AGW only a few years ago, but not because I was a denier but because I was like "I don't know what the real consensus is, gotta look it up later".

I really can't sort out my feeling on AGW. I'm very much an "environmentalist" (home grown food, not wasting energy, solar panels, etc) but for some reason which I can't identify I just can't get excited about the global warming thing. I've tried but just can't muster enthusiasm for the topic.

153 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:51:52pm

I'm still a Zionist.

154 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:53:12pm

re: #151 Lidane

I adopted RFK's politics and hairstyle. Haven't much changed either since he was killed.

155 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:53:38pm

re: #152 Killgore Trout

I kinda get you there. I actually get disgusted by the stuff deniers write, but as to the process itself, I feel that we're fucked and nothing much will help. I know this mindset is flawed, but there you are.

156 wrenchwench  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:54:18pm

re: #154 Decatur Deb

I adopted RFK's politics and hairstyle. Haven't much changed either since he was killed.

Dude. You need a ponytail!

157 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:55:02pm

re: #153 Learned Mother of Zion

I'm still a Zionist.

Nothing wrong with that. That's one thing on this blog that's never changed: It remains in favor of Israel's right to exist and defend itself. Charles has never stopped despising Radical Islam, but like me he came to see how much of Islam isn't radical. To be fair, he got to that place faster than I did.

158 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:55:39pm

re: #152 Killgore Trout

I really can't sort out my feeling on AGW. I'm very much an "environmentalist" (home grown food, not wasting energy, solar panels, etc) but for some reason which I can't identify I just can't get excited about the global warming thing. I've tried but just can't muster enthusiasm for the topic.

I'd agree with that. I dabbled with denial, but being so fascinated with science, I couldn't ever get over the facts that were out there. So I mostly ranted against the "doomsayers" and chuckled along with the jokes aimed at people like Al Gore.

Now? Oh, I believe it's happening, and I think we should work to end or at least decrease our part in its progression. But I hold no illusions that we're gonna stop it or even reverse it.

159 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:55:50pm

re: #155 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

Figuring out that we're most likely fucked didn't really change my attitude about what should be done, any more than figuring out I was really going to die and there's nothing I can do about that changed my attitude towards life or trying to survive until that moment comes.

160 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:56:18pm

I found out about this incident in Finland:

Last week a Finnish racist party's racist MP's racist assistant wrote in her racist blog that (since there has been debate about racial profiling by the police) we should make foreigners wear arm badges with symbols for their nationality. A shitstorm ensued, at which point the Finnish racist party's racist MP's racist assistant explained that her racist post in her racist blog was just humour, why so serious?

161 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:58:01pm

re: #156 wrenchwench

Dude. You need a ponytail!

A couple of first-generation deadheads showed up at the AL/FL/GA BBQ festival. They were cool, but the 20 yr-old wrecking Janis Joplin was a fail. The Summer of 69 wasn't the best year of her life, either.l

162 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:58:35pm

On the topic of the old LGF: I'll still say I'm opposed to radical/fundamentalist Islam and terrorism. I understand why Charles turned away from the topic. As a blog owner it does attract too many wingnuts and bigots. However, part of the appeal of the old LGF for me was the push back against religious fundamentalism. As a liberal I think it deserves resistance but of course the "creeping sharia" idiots took the concept too far. I think it's one of the topics that modern Western "liberalism" falls short on. It doesn't have to be that way.

163 Gus  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:59:23pm

re: #150 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

Kevin McDonald - VDARE - Malkin Superstar

Internment camp Annie. There's a lot more of course but I was focusing on the white-nationalists. Of course these other groups also work hand in hand with their ideology: SIOA; SION; International Free Press Society (IFPS) Network; International Defence Leagues Network; David Horowitz Freedom Center; etc. Can't get too diluted though. The focus now is domestically with the white-nationalists.

People think that white supremacists are like something out of the movies. That is some kind of trailer park living guy on meth with tattoos. As we know that's not true and the most powerful and influential includes many a tenured professor.

164 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:00:17pm

I guess I've always been liberal, even though my parents weren't. I wasn't interested in politics when I was younger, nor was I particularly religious (in the "following a formal religion" sense). I've always pretty much lived in my own little world...never really thought about or cared much whether anyone else agreed with my construct, as long as they didn't try to impose any of their beliefs or rules on me.

I don't deal with authority or ultimatums very well—both tend to make me dig my feet in and refuse to budge, even when compliance is in my best interests.

165 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:01:07pm

re: #160 ProGunLiberal

I found out about this incident in Finland:

Hurr, hurr, hurr! Let's trot out a Nazi idea and call it humor! That'll show those evil furriners!!1

I Hate Finnish Nazis!

166 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:01:14pm

re: #86 CuriousLurker

I disagree. It's the ridiculing that engages them and allows them to spew more, IMO. If Charles writes a post about it—especially without mentioning any of the spewers by name (therefore depriving them of attention)—where he simply lays out the facts and addresses why he reacted the way he did, then he can just point to it in the future, as he said.

A serious response won't change their opinions or behavior, but it'll rob them of the ongoing schoolyard fun they seem to be having issuing double dog dares and other such nonsense. It's like, "Okay, here's my response. I'm now done with this subject once and for all and moving on to more current, important events. End of story."

Could be. If you come out of lurking to comment, I give your comment some serious thought.

Still, my guess from dealing with these types is that they're impervious to any serious response. They'll have their schoolyard fun regardless. I like ridiculing them because I think it's funny - not because I think it'll have any particular impact one way or the other.

It does seem that there's a support here for such a post. Since what his readers think is more important anyway, that in itself would be a good reason to do one.

167 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:01:29pm

re: #162 Killgore Trout

On the topic of the old LGF: I'll still say I'm opposed to radical/fundamentalist Islam and terrorism. I understand why Charles turned away from the topic. As a blog owner it does attract too many wingnuts and bigots. However, part of the appeal of the old LGF for me was the push back against religious fundamentalism. As a liberal I think it deserves resistance but of course the "creeping sharia" idiots took the concept too far. I think it's one of the topics that modern Western "liberalism" falls short on. It doesn't have to be that way.

Yeah, well, you see, I don't know any person here who is "meh, maybe OK" about Islamists (not even mentioning terrorists).

168 wrenchwench  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:01:37pm

re: #163 Gus

Internment camp Annie.

I don't suppose you could make that 'Shelly' or something....

169 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:02:45pm

re: #164 CuriousLurker

As far back as I can remember, I have been Liberal.

The only time I was pro-Republican was during those little fake voting things in schools they had (have?), during the 1996 election. In my little 6-year old mind, I associated Robert Dole with Bananas, and Bananas were good.

I was stupid when little.

170 Shvaughn  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:03:17pm

re: #162 Killgore Trout

On the topic of the old LGF: I'll still say I'm opposed to radical/fundamentalist Islam and terrorism.

Isn't everyone, except for radical Islamic terrorists?

171 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:03:54pm

re: #169 ProGunLiberal

I was stupid when little.

Most people are stupid when little. Unless you're Mozart. And even Mozart was stupid when he wasn't playing the piano.

172 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:05:45pm

re: #169 ProGunLiberal

As far back as I can remember, I have been Liberal.

You wouldn't happen to be saying that in Ray Liotta's voice, would you? ;)

173 TedStriker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:06:43pm

re: #172 Dark_Falcon

You wouldn't happen to be saying that in Ray Liotta's voice, would you? ;)

Liotta as Henry Hill or as someone else?

/

174 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:06:51pm

Michael Tilson-Thomas and the story of his grandparents, The Thomashefskys: Music and Memories of a Life in the Yiddish Theater. Sometimes Great Performances really has something good.

175 wrenchwench  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:08:34pm

I was once a card-carrying member of the National Organization for Women. I went to a consciousness-raising session. I was in high school.

I was once a card-carrying member of the Etch-a-Sketch Club. I was in college.

176 Gus  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:09:38pm

Here you go. Speaking of the #winning hashtag.

Warning: contains derpy imagery.

177 Gus  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:11:07pm
178 Targetpractice  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:11:43pm

I was born a poor, black child.

/Had to be done.

179 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:12:47pm

re: #177 Gus

Uh oh.

Kid is suffering from low bread pressure.

180 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:15:03pm

re: #111 Dark_Falcon

Yes, he did, but it does not invalidate the Troll Hammer. It just means he got banned. He didn't go stalker, though, so I feel the TH is still good.

Perhaps we could forge a new, better one, from the broken pieces. Or something.

181 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:15:32pm

re: #171 Learned Mother of Zion

Most people are stupid when little. Unless you're Mozart. And even Mozart was stupid when he wasn't playing the piano.

The lack of common sense in the average boy age 18 months to um, 19 or 20, is astounding.

182 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:15:41pm

re: #32 HoosierHoops

And my invitation is where????

183 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:16:18pm

re: #180 SanFranciscoZionist

Perhaps we could forge a new, better one, from the broken pieces. Or something.

You schlep the frags to the fiery mountain.

184 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:16:40pm

re: #176 Gus

Here you go. Speaking of the #winning hashtag.

Warning: contains derpy imagery.

185 wrenchwench  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:17:19pm

re: #183 Decatur Deb

You schlep the frags to the fiery mountain.

I was gonna say "We have a barbeque now". Your comment is along those lines....

186 Interesting Times  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:17:23pm

re: #177 Gus

Uh oh.

187 Gus  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:17:34pm

re: #184 Dark_Falcon

Right on. Saw that. Sorry about before. You know it wasn't meant as a literal comparison. ;)

188 Gus  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:18:09pm

re: #186 Interesting Times

Yep. I'm already starting to see rumblings. Which is why I said "uh oh."

189 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:18:22pm

re: #182 Dancing along the light of day

And my invitation is where???

Up on that high ledge yonder. We put it up there so you could grab it more easily.

/giraffe humor

190 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:18:30pm

re: #162 Killgore Trout

On the topic of the old LGF: I'll still say I'm opposed to radical/fundamentalist Islam and terrorism.

Who in their right mind isn't?

I think it deserves resistance but of course the "creeping sharia" idiots took the concept too far.

THIS. They've poisoned the well. The sort of hyperbolic oversimplification that exists today makes the inability to discuss anything related to Islam rationally a dangerous thing. We need to be able to talk about things minus the hysteria. If we can't, then the terrorists and their far-right Western counterparts win the mind-f*ck game.

I was looking at some photos the other day—I think form one of the articles on Randall's pages—they were of EDL people and Islamist/Jihadi types in the UK.

All I could think about is these guys NEVER directly fight each other, all they do is spread their hate, then the idiots who buy into it attack some innocent, unsuspecting people who are simply walking down the street or trying to catch a train to work or whatever. It's all very cynical & calculated. They're puppeteers.

191 Achilles Tang  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:18:43pm

re: #170 Shvaughn

Isn't everyone, except for radical Islamic terrorists?

What category is this guy?/

192 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:19:22pm

re: #162 Killgore Trout

However, part of the appeal of the old LGF for me was the push back against religious fundamentalism.

How much pushback was there, in those days, against Christian fundamentalism? Jewish fundamentalism? How about Rastafarian fundamentalism? Pastafarian fundamentalism?

As I recall, it was only Islamic fundamentalism.

193 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:20:00pm

re: #177 Gus

Uh oh.

Oh for the fucking love of God Almighty, creator of the dumb as well as the smart.

Why have affluent men with successful careers been going to professional dominatrixes since the effing Romans, if not earlier? Has there been one single Newsweek cover devoted to this? Huh? Huh?

194 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:21:12pm

re: #188 Gus

Yep. I'm already starting to see rumblings. Which is why I said "uh oh."

Its a really dumb cover and if Newsweek gets blowback from it they've only themselves to blame.

Seriously, that cover belongs on a fashion magazine, not a news magazine. And even then, showcasing that kind of underweight model is somewhat questionable.

195 Achilles Tang  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:21:19pm

re: #192 Talking Point Detective

How much pushback was there, in those days, against Christian fundamentalism?

There was eventually. The evidence is in those who are now blocked.

196 Gus  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:21:22pm

I was born in a van down by the river.

197 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:21:40pm

re: #181 Mostly sane, most of the time.

The lack of common sense in the average boy age 18 months to um, 19 or 20, is astounding.

I once had a conversation with a perfectly intelligent teenage boy, in which he told me about how the previous Christmas he had put a firecracker in a glass Christmas tree ornament and lit it, just to see what would happen.

All I could say was "What did you THINK would happen?"

He told me he 'didn't entirely balance the equation'.

198 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:21:41pm

re: #187 Gus

Right on. Saw that. Sorry about before. You know it wasn't meant as a literal comparison. ;)

We're good.

199 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:23:01pm

re: #88 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

My own fan club. At last! *wipes the tears of joy*

*smoochies*

200 Lidane  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:23:22pm

re: #175 wrenchwench

I was once a card-carrying member of the National Organization for Women. I went to a consciousness-raising session. I was in high school.

I had a housemate in college that was president of the university's NOW chapter. Women's studies major, militant, the whole cliche in one package.

She'd also pitch a fit when I would go to parties with the fraternity and sorority folks I knew at the time, not because I was going to frat parties but because I wouldn't invite her along. Why would I want to go to a party with someone who was a total downer? That never made sense.

201 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:23:53pm

re: #191 Flame Fin Tomini Tang

What category is this guy?/

I dunno, but I bet Baroness Warsi is rolling her eyes. Although I think they've worked together in the past, when that weird thing with the teacher and the teddy bear was happening in Sudan.

(I think Baroness Warsi is a good role model for girls.)

202 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:26:34pm

re: #197 SanFranciscoZionist

I once had a conversation with a perfectly intelligent teenage boy, in which he told me about how the previous Christmas he had put a firecracker in a glass Christmas tree ornament and lit it, just to see what would happen.

All I could say was "What did you THINK would happen?"

He told me he 'didn't entirely balance the equation'.

Once worked with a few thousand adult engineers who made good money doing roughly the same thing. A few were femengineers.

203 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:26:48pm

re: #190 CuriousLurker

Who in their right mind isn't?

THIS. They've poisoned the well. The sort of hyperbolic oversimplification that exists today makes the inability to discuss anything related to Islam rationally a dangerous thing. We need to be able to talk about things minus the hysteria. If we can't, then the terrorists and their far-right Western counterparts win the mind-f*ck game.

I'd like to upding that twice, but the only way I can think of doing that would require a downding also.

The kind of blatant Islamophobia that was rampant at this site was not innocent. It had the specific impact of creating exactly the conditions you described. Actually, I think that for many it's even worse, as it was basically a cynical exploitation of terrorism for the sake of political expediency. I can't tell you how many times I read about how liberals were deliberately supporting terrorism if it would hurt Bush, how they just wanted to pursue a "hate America first" approach towards terrorism, etc. It was all about partisan politics - not about dealing with fundamentalist Islam.

204 Lidane  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:27:05pm

re: #193 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh for the fucking love of God Almighty, creator of the dumb as well as the smart.

Why have affluent men with successful careers been going to professional dominatrixes since the effing Romans, if not earlier? Has there been one single Newsweek cover devoted to this? Huh? Huh?

That's exactly what I was thinking.

It's just more sexist bullshit. The double standard is maddening. So what if a woman has kinks and desires and likes to act on them?

205 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:27:55pm

re: #201 SanFranciscoZionist

Why does it seem that Pakistan is locus for our problems with the Radicals, along with Saudi Arabia?

I still think we should have had a larger coalition in 2001, and attacked both Pakistan and Afghanistan. The Taliban is nothing more than a Colonialist puppet of Pakistan.

206 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:29:02pm

re: #195 Flame Fin Tomini Tang

There was eventually. The evidence is in those who are now blocked.

Precisely. Which is why KT's trying to duck for cover is not convincing.

208 Achilles Tang  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:32:16pm

re: #201 SanFranciscoZionist

I dunno, but I bet Baroness Warsi is rolling her eyes.

Hopefully she is doing more than that.

209 Achilles Tang  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:33:06pm

re: #206 Talking Point Detective

Precisely. Which is why KT's trying to duck for cover is not convincing.

I don't follow.

210 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:34:44pm

re: #205 ProGunLiberal

Why does it seem that Pakistan is locus for our problems with the Radicals, along with Saudi Arabia?

I still think we should have had a larger coalition in 2001, and attacked both Pakistan and Afghanistan. The Taliban is nothing more than a Colonialist puppet of Pakistan.

That would have taken much longer and we'd have had to openly ally with India to do it. Such a campaign would have been a definite "land war in Asia", too.

211 TedStriker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:38:59pm

re: #202 Decatur Deb

Once worked with a few thousand adult engineers who made good money doing roughly the same thing. A few were femengineers.

'Femengineers'? Is that like 'fembots'?


///
212 Achilles Tang  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:39:13pm

re: #205 ProGunLiberal

Why does it seem that Pakistan is locus for our problems with the Radicals, along with Saudi Arabia?

I still think we should have had a larger coalition in 2001, and attacked both Pakistan and Afghanistan. The Taliban is nothing more than a Colonialist puppet of Pakistan.

I think you 'didn't entirely balance the equation'.

213 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:39:16pm

re: #210 Dark_Falcon

Your right. However, at that time, there were several other nations also willing to act along side. Iran (who did aid in the taking of Herat) and Russia and its Central Asian Satellites. Not only that, but in Afghanistan, things would have gone easier in areas where groups other than the Pashto were a plurality. And in Pakistan, Balochistan and Sindh, which already had seccessionist movements, could have had those movements exploited to lessen resistance there as well.

But you are right in many ways. It probably would have been the most intense war for the US since WWII.

214 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:39:19pm

re: #207 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

A raft for racists: The National Review, from Buckley through Derbyshire and beyond

I highly recommend watching the entirety of the Baldwin/Buckley debate. It really reinforced for me just how long the "blame the agitators" meme has been around. It's striking how today's racism takes the exact same form as it did some 50 years ago.

215 Decatur Deb  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:41:38pm

re: #211 GnarlyGnomeOfGnowledge

'Femengineers'? Is that like 'fembots'?

[Embedded content]
///

Grown-up version of the firecracker-in-a-glass trick:

Image: image.php?&aid=2799&IMX-101.jpg

216 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:42:01pm

re: #209 Flame Fin Tomini Tang

I don't follow.

KT is trying to say that the hatred of fundamentalist Islam that was prevalent here was just a part of anti-religious fundamentalism. Thus, he's justifying his participation in the Islamophobia.

It wasn't about anti-fundamentalism. It was about Islamophobia, and IMO, that was mostly cover for political expedient attacks against "the left." The Islamophobia and hatred of libruls were inextricable from one another.

217 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:44:14pm

re: #213 ProGunLiberal

Your right. However, at that time, there were several other nations also willing to act along side. Iran (who did aid in the taking of Herat) and Russia and its Central Asian Satellites. Not only that, but in Afghanistan, things would have gone easier in areas where groups other than the Pashto were a plurality. And in Pakistan, Balochistan and Sindh, which already had seccessionist movements, could have had those movements exploited to lessen resistance there as well.

But you are right in many ways. It probably would have been the most intense war for the US since WWII.

It also could not have been embarked upon quickly, and bush would have seen his domestic support erode badly during the run-up, far more than with Iraq. This would have been due to the fact that Pakistan has a real army. Its an army that does Pakistan more harm than good, but it can actually fight, and it would be fighting for its very survival in such a war. Pakistan also has nukes and thus they might have simply nuked the forces moving against them.

218 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:49:46pm

re: #217 Dark_Falcon

But, what was the state of Pakistan's delivery systems then? Could we have dealt with them, because this was just 3 years after the Nuke Test. Could the missiles have been all that advanced? Not only that, but the number of nukes then was much smaller.

Still, your point stands on Pakistan being able to fight. Though, I don't know if they would have been able to deal with a Superpower, 2 World Powers, a regional power, and number of other nations attacking at the same time.

219 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:50:35pm

re: #203 Talking Point Detective

I'd like to upding that twice, but the only way I can think of doing that would require a downding also.

The kind of blatant Islamophobia that was rampant at this site was not innocent. It had the specific impact of creating exactly the conditions you described. Actually, I think that for many it's even worse, as it was basically a cynical exploitation of terrorism for the sake of political expediency. I can't tell you how many times I read about how liberals were deliberately supporting terrorism if it would hurt Bush, how they just wanted to pursue a "hate America first" approach towards terrorism, etc. It was all about partisan politics - not about dealing with fundamentalist Islam.

I couldn't agree more. A very real threat exists. It needs to be assessed rationally and realistically by people who aren't pandering for votes or financially beholden to special interests that make a profit on the "War on Terror".

American Muslims also need to be able to participate in the conversation without being shouted down or spied on simply because we're Muslim. We understand Islam in a way that most non-Muslims cannot because we have one foot in each world, so to speak—we can add much to the conversation if people will just stop freaking out long enough to let us. Many seem to forget that the terrorists are just as willing to kill us as they are to kill non-Muslims. Anyone who disagrees with their worldview is fair game to them.

We won't begin to find a way to protect ourselves until we do these things. Much as the far-right wishes it were otherwise, turning the ME into a glass parking lot and/or making Islam illegal in America on pain of imprisonment/deportation isn't going to fly. It would fundamentally change who we are as as a nation.

220 Achilles Tang  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:52:37pm

re: #216 Talking Point Detective

I think you are going deeper than called for. Digging a hole so to speak.

I could have plenty to say about any form of religious fundamentalism, and the Islamic variety is certainly the most prominent one in the news since well before 9/11.

However if I criticize the Catholic church (which is as fundamentalist as one can get), I am not called a "Chistianityphobe", but if I were to lay into the flaws in Islam that make it so prone to fundamentalism, then I risk being lumped into the Islamaphobe category along with the right wing racist crowd; so I hold my tongue (in part due to respect for some members here).

Which reminds me, I'm sorry we don't seem to hear from Reine lately...

221 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:54:10pm

re: #218 ProGunLiberal

But, what was the state of Pakistan's delivery systems then? Could we have dealt with them, because this was just 3 years after the Nuke Test. Could the missiles have been all that advanced? Not only that, but the number of nukes then was much smaller.

Still, your point stands on Pakistan being able to fight. Though, I don't know if they would have been able to deal with a Superpower, 2 World Powers, a regional power, and number of other nations attacking at the same time.

That assumes Russia would have been willing to support us, and we still haven't dealt with the issue of China, the true wildcard in this what-if deck.

222 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:57:16pm

re: #221 Dark_Falcon

Fair point on China.

On Russia, I would imagine that if we pulled India, India could have helped pull in Russia, as Russia and India are/were close allies.

223 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:58:13pm

re: #220 Flame Fin Tomini Tang

I think you are going deeper than called for. Digging a hole so to speak.

I could have plenty to say about any form of religious fundamentalism, and the Islamic variety is certainly the most prominent one in the news since well before 9/11.

However if I criticize the Catholic church (which is as fundamentalist as one can get), I am not called a "Chistianityphobe", but if I were to lay into the flaws in Islam that make it so prone to fundamentalism, then I risk being lumped into the Islamaphobe category along with the right wing racist crowd; so I hold my tongue (in part due to respect for some members here).

Which reminds me, I'm sorry we don't seem to hear from Reine lately...

Apples and oranges. When you criticize the RCC you're not criticizing the believers themselves (well, at least I hope you're not), it's an organization. Criticize the Islamic *organizations* that fail and you won't be called an Islamophobe by reasonable people.

Now, it's true that if you criticize Islam as a system of belief from the POV of a rationalist, there will be some responses accusing you of Islamophobia. But then, if you criticize Judaism as a system of belief, some will accuse you of antisemitism. It is what it is. This also pertains to Christianity. It shouldn't be so. Rationalist critiques of systems of beliefs should be taken as they are. (Of course, there will also be some attempts to cloak bigotry in the rationalist mantle, it's a matter of discussion.)

224 Achilles Tang  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:58:51pm

re: #222 ProGunLiberal

Fair point on China.

On Russia, I would imagine that if we pulled India, India could have helped pull in Russia, as Russia and India are/were close allies.

And once we invaded Pakistan, we would have done what? This speculation is just plain silly.

225 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:01:56pm

re: #219 CuriousLurker

American Muslims also need to be able to participate in the conversation...

I would add that being part of the conversation is not necessarily a pleasant prospect for American Muslims as it would require a good bit of soul searching regarding where we've screwed up, been in denial, etc.

Nonetheless, I'm convinced we need to do it—to be challenged (in a non-hostile way) outside of the more comfortable Muslim echo chamber where everyone understands where we're coming from without having to explain. Doing so will help us define exactly who we are and why we stand where we do, not only for others, but also for ourselves.

226 Shvaughn  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:02:07pm

re: #205 ProGunLiberal

I still think we should have had a larger coalition in 2001, and attacked both Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Going to war against an enemy armed with nuclear weapons doesn't seem like a very smart idea.

227 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:03:41pm

re: #224 Flame Fin Tomini Tang

And once we invaded Pakistan, we would have done what? This speculation is just plain silly.

Sometimes PLL likes to wargame "big solution" options and I play his foil, because at other times I still like to do that.

228 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:03:49pm

re: #220 Flame Fin Tomini Tang

I think you are going deeper than called for. Digging a hole so to speak.

I could have plenty to say about any form of religious fundamentalism, and the Islamic variety is certainly the most prominent one in the news since well before 9/11.

However if I criticize the Catholic church (which is as fundamentalist as one can get), I am not called a "Chistianityphobe", but if I were to lay into the flaws in Islam that make it so prone to fundamentalism, then I risk being lumped into the Islamaphobe category along with the right wing racist crowd; so I hold my tongue (in part due to respect for some members here).

Which reminds me, I'm sorry we don't seem to hear from Reine lately...

I get your point - but I am making a point specific to what I witnessed, from the outside, taking place here at LGF.

There may be some who are called Islamophobes simply because they criticize fundamentalist Islam. It really is a complicated topic, and I agree that it's easy to go overboard in the other direction. However, consider how easily the term "War on Christians" )or Christianity) is bandied about.

As to the flaws in Islam that make it prone to fundamentalism - as opposed to the flaws in Christianity or other religious doctrines, - I think that the question is far from as settled as you seem to think. I think that the human psyche is prone to fundamentalism, and Islam is a vehicle for that tendency just as is any religion. Attempts to tie intolerance or misogyny to Islamic doctrine, as opposed to myriad economic, cultural, and political influences that have gotten us to where we are now with the crossover between terrorism and Islam, don't hold up for me. I know quite a few deeply traditional Muslims and Christians whom I respect greatly - so the simple attribute of being a fundamentalist of a particular religious doctrine is too vague for me to use as a very meaningful metric unto itself.

229 CuriousLurker  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:04:07pm

Oh look, a shiny new thread! Gonna go read the article, then start getting ready for Monday. Later, lizards.

230 Shvaughn  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:05:02pm

re: #227 Dark_Falcon

Sometimes PLL likes to wargame "big solution" options and I play his foil, because at other times I still like to do that.

Sadly, most of his big solutions tend to involve the deaths of a lot of people.

231 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:06:13pm

re: #205 ProGunLiberal

I still think we should have had a larger coalition in 2001, and attacked both Pakistan and Afghanistan. The Taliban is nothing more than a Colonialist puppet of Pakistan.

Umm...no. Your assessment of the relationship between the radical groups that we now think of as the Taliban and the Pakistani government as it stood in 2001 is incorrect. Basically, the Islamists present in the government were of a different species than those in the universities and the tribal lands: in 2001 the former were still our allies in good standing, the latter were a problem for the former that we helped them with over several decades.

Mind you, we were also less officially arming the Islamists that were disrupting Pakistan so that they could participate in the USSR-Afghan conflict...so quelle surprise the entire thing turned into a fucking mess.

Collusion between elements in the Pakistani government and the Taliban started after the country started falling apart when the latter started penetrating the porous Af-Pak border and gaining more and more influence in the tribal regions. And the more the US has made noises about leaving the area, the more government men have cut deals to cling on to a bit of power.

232 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:06:52pm

re: #228 Talking Point Detective

When I first arrived here, there was a cohort of people who argued, over and over, that Islam was demonstrably different from other religions, deeply flawed in some structural way, and thus deserving of special condemnation and, in fact, irreversibly extremist.


Those were Islamophobes.

233 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:06:59pm

re: #227 Dark_Falcon

It's become clear in the past few years that Pakistan was the real problem, not Afghanistan. Afghanistan was little more than an occupied territories.

I'm trying to think if things could have gone differently.

234 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:07:46pm

re: #205 ProGunLiberal

I still think we should have had a larger coalition in 2001, and attacked both Pakistan and Afghanistan. The Taliban is nothing more than a Colonialist puppet of Pakistan.

What would we have done with Pakistan after attacking it?

235 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:08:12pm

re: #205 ProGunLiberal

Why does it seem that Pakistan is locus for our problems with the Radicals, along with Saudi Arabia?

I still think we should have had a larger coalition in 2001, and attacked both Pakistan and Afghanistan. The Taliban is nothing more than a Colonialist puppet of Pakistan.

Eh, this guy is a Brit. Ethnic English politicians come out with similar silliness all the time.

236 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:09:08pm

re: #231 The Ghost of a Flea

Eh, not entirely true:

The Kunduz airlift, dubbed the Airlift of Evil by US military forces around Kunduz and subsequently used as a term in media reports, refers to the evacuation of thousands of top commanders and members of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda as well as Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence agents and army personnel, and other Jihadi volunteers and sympathizers, from the city of Kunduz, Afghanistan, in November 2001 just before its capture by U.S. and United Front of Afghanistan (Northern Alliance) forces during the War in Afghanistan.

The Pakistani Military did intensive operations in Afghanistan, and actively supported the Taliban. That was why there was no huge resistance to them coming in in the first place.

237 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:11:31pm

re: #232 Obdicut

When I first arrived here, there was a cohort of people who argued, over and over, that Islam was demonstrably different from other religions, deeply flawed in some structural way, and thus deserving of special condemnation and, in fact, irreversibly extremist.

Those were Islamophobes.

Agreed. Concision is not my strong suit.

238 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:12:44pm

re: #230 Shvaughn

Sadly, most of his big solutions tend to involve the deaths of a lot of people.

Any wargaming of a 'big war' involves examining options that would have killed a lot of people. That's one of the major effects of a large-scale war: large-scale death. Not a good thing, but there it is.

239 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:13:31pm

re: #234 Obdicut

Give Pakistan-occupied Kashmir to India, then have some sort of plebiscite with different options for the different provinces and/or regions. In the Puerto Rico Status Referendum pattern

Question a) Keep current Status (minus Kashmir)?

Question b) If no on a, what alternative status would you like your region to have?

240 Talking Point Detective  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:16:15pm

re: #205 ProGunLiberal

Why does it seem that Pakistan is locus for our problems with the Radicals, along with Saudi Arabia?

I still think we should have had a larger coalition in 2001, and attacked both Pakistan and Afghanistan. The Taliban is nothing more than a Colonialist puppet of Pakistan.

Keep in mind, there is a huge gap between supporting Pakistan with bundles of money and attacking it, and we should have done something in between, IMO.

241 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:16:18pm

re: #239 ProGunLiberal

And what the fuck good would that do, exactly?

242 Achilles Tang  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:19:51pm

re: #223 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

Apples and oranges. When you criticize the RCC you're not criticizing the believers themselves (well, at least I hope you're not), it's an organization. Criticize the Islamic *organizations* that fail and you won't be called an Islamophobe by reasonable people.

Sorry to disappoint, but the RCC "organization" would not exist if not for its believers. Do you not think a critique of the crap GOP presidential candidates spout is also a critique of the people whose votes put them there?

There are no comparable Islamic organizations to the RCC, which is in part what makes criticism of Islam seem immediately broad based against believers. However, this kind of attitude (which I posted earlier ) is representative of a broad "apologist" tendency of what one would otherwise describe as educated and "moderate" muslims.

It shouldn't be so.

I take that as an agreement.

243 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:22:44pm

re: #241 Obdicut

At the least, Pakistan would be weakened, and its ability to support terror heavily curtailed.

It would have been possible that Pakistan would have ceased to exist. Balochistan probably would have seceded, and plausibly Sindh Province too. And the NWFP has been claimed (sort of) by Afghanistan for a while, so it would not have been out of the question that the Northern Alliance Government would have been able to convince the people of NWFP to join Afghanistan. Only Punjab would have been left.

However, this is just superfluous thinking. I just wish we didn't have this situation now.

244 Achilles Tang  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:27:09pm

re: #232 Obdicut

When I first arrived here, there was a cohort of people who argued, over and over, that Islam was demonstrably different from other religions, deeply flawed in some structural way, and thus deserving of special condemnation and, in fact, irreversibly extremist.

Those were Islamophobes.

I happen to think that it is structurally flawed and designed to maintain a 14th century culture in the most intimate details of everyday life.

That we can find plenty of exceptions doesn't change that, but whatever I might argue in that regard has probably already been categorized as Islamaphobia even before it is said.

See what I mean?

245 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:30:50pm

re: #236 ProGunLiberal

Eh, not entirely true:

The Pakistani Military did intensive operations in Afghanistan, and actively supported the Taliban. That was why there was no huge resistance to them coming in in the first place.

Dude...I'm talking about a decade earlier than the "airlift of evil". Pakistan has been fraying apart from Islamists in the tribal regions since the 90s. We did not give a shit for a very long time, and only started paying attention when they completely knocked over Afghanistan.

re: #243 ProGunLiberal

At the least, Pakistan would be weakened, and its ability to support terror heavily curtailed.

You seriously need to understand that you're talking about a part of the world where there's no infrastructure or interconnectivity. The head has never really known what the distal parts are doing in Pakistan. The military has always been regional, and loyal to generals over nation...and we've helped that along by dumping arms and cash into the hands of a few military elite who -shockingly-! don't exactly stand up to scrutiny.

Attack Lahore and wipe out the central governance and they'll be zero changes to the movement of money that backs terrorism. Hit individual generals and their cash and auctoritas will just roll to the next person in their grey, extralegal hierarchy.

All you're going to achieve is more people affected by collateral damage, sympathetic to terrorist memes that the world doesn't care about them.

246 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:31:21pm

re: #242 Flame Fin Tomini Tang

Sorry to disappoint, but the RCC "organization" would not exist if not for its believers. Do you not think a critique of the crap GOP presidential candidates spout is also a critique of the people whose votes put them there?

There are no comparable Islamic organizations to the RCC, which is in part what makes criticism of Islam seem immediately broad based against believers. However, this kind of attitude (which I posted earlier ) is representative of a broad "apologist" tendency of what one would otherwise describe as educated and "moderate" muslims.

I take that as an agreement.

Here are the issues I see as problematic:

1. Overly broad criticism of the believers. OK, so the Church wouldn't be there if not for the believers. But a lot of believers disagree with the Church on a lot of things, like birth control. So if you're saying something like "dumb Catholics, they're against birth control" you're literally libeling millions of people, even if they share *some* responsibility for supporting this organization.

2. The causation issue. I can see how one can argue that such-and-such commandment or belief when applied literally causes problems. True. However focusing on this is somewhat misleading. Any religion has problematic parts which cause trouble when applied too literally. So the question is not what religion has what bad stuff, but why large groups of people still choose to follow those bad parts, rather than go in the liberal direction. I mean, we're not discussing why religious Jews don't stone gays or heretics, even though the laws are on the books.

So basically unless you're nuanced, there won't be much good in such a critique.

I take that as an agreement.

It depends on what you think I'm agreeing with.

247 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:31:42pm

re: #243 ProGunLiberal

At the least, Pakistan would be weakened, and its ability to support terror heavily curtailed.

It would have been possible that Pakistan would have ceased to exist. Balochistan probably would have seceded, and plausibly Sindh Province too. And the NWFP has been claimed (sort of) by Afghanistan for a while, so it would not have been out of the question that the Northern Alliance Government would have been able to convince the people of NWFP to join Afghanistan. Only Punjab would have been left.

However, this is just superfluous thinking. I just wish we didn't have this situation now.

Big thinking like that isn't bad, PLL, as long as you remember that small ball will almost always be the order of the day.

248 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:33:03pm

re: #245 The Ghost of a Flea

I guess I see your point on this.

249 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:37:43pm

re: #243 ProGunLiberal

At the least, Pakistan would be weakened, and its ability to support terror heavily curtailed.

A weakened state in the aftermath of an invasion by the West. Why wouldn't you expect it to become more radically militantly Islamic?

I have no idea how you've managed to convince yourself a Balkanization of Pakistan, which would produce more poverty, more deprivation, and more support for terrorism, is a good thing. It does involve killing lots of people, and you seem to favor scenarios that involve killing lots and lots of people, so maybe that's why.

Does the idea of lots and lots of people dying bother you in the least?

250 Obdicut  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:39:20pm

re: #244 Flame Fin Tomini Tang

I happen to think that it is structurally flawed and designed to maintain a 14th century culture in the most intimate details of everyday life.

What is 'it'? The text of the Koran? And how do you square this with Muslims who this is clearly not true for?

That we can find plenty of exceptions doesn't change that,

Why not?

but whatever I might argue in that regard has probably already been categorized as Islamaphobia even before it is said.
See what I mean?

No.

251 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:42:25pm

re: #169 ProGunLiberal

As far back as I can remember, I have been Liberal.

The only time I was pro-Republican was during those little fake voting things in schools they had (have?), during the 1996 election. In my little 6-year old mind, I associated Robert Dole with Bananas, and Bananas were good.

I was stupid when little.

Given how much of Bob Dole got left on an Italian field, I think I can not worry about some kid thinking he's a good man. I doubt I ever much agreed with him but he got there the hard way.

252 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:42:25pm

re: #248 ProGunLiberal

I guess I see your point on this.

I was a little kid in Pakistan and India; the problems in that part of the world eat my fucking soul. The very concept of the nation was an flawed--seriously, fuck the British and Jinnah--and it's never really held together, all to the detriment of the people that live there. And the USA gets a big bite of that shit sandwich, as we've dumped money into the nation indiscriminately and created a system of Big Men knocking about the hapless remainder. We also stood by and did nothing to blunt the anti-India rhetoric that was used as a cheap substitute for actual nation-building...because hey who gives a shit about the brown people when we've got Creeping Communism (TM) to stop....

253 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 7:51:47pm

re: #252 The Ghost of a Flea

I was a little kid in Pakistan and India; the problems in that part of the world eat my fucking soul. The very concept of the nation was an flawed--seriously, fuck the British and Jinnah--and it's never really held together, all to the detriment of the people that live there. And the USA gets a big bite of that shit sandwich, as we've dumped money into the nation indiscriminately and created a system of Big Men knocking about the hapless remainder. We also stood by and did nothing to blunt the anti-India rhetoric that was used as a cheap substitute for actual nation-building...because hey who gives a shit about the brown people when we've got Creeping Communism (TM) to stop...

Except that Communism was not creeping in the late 70's, it was advancing fast and seemed to be gaining speed. It's true that we now know how much strain the Soviet Union was under, but we didn't know back then. Given the circumstances, Charlie Wilson's plan to turn Afghanistan into a quagmire for the USSR had a lot of merit.


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