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Ted Nugent Gets Noticed by the Secret Service

“We’ll conduct an appropriate follow up”
Wingnuts • Views: 28,227

Motor City mouthAfter Right Wing Watch released their video of caveman guitarist Ted Nugent saying he’d “either be dead or in jail” if Obama is reelected, the Secret Service got interested.

Update: A spokesman for the Secret Service tells us, “We are aware of it, and we’ll conduct an appropriate follow up.”

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180 comments

1 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 10:45:02am

Stormtroopin!

2 Kragar  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 10:49:37am

It was probably his other comments they're looking into:

Nugent Compared Obama and Democrats to a Coyote that Needs to Be Shot

Our President and Attorney General, Vice President, Hillary Clinton, they’re criminals, they’re criminals. […]

It isn’t the enemy that ruined America. It’s good people who bent over and let the enemy in.

If the coyote’s in your living room pissing on your couch, it’s not the coyote’s fault. It’s your fault for not shooting him. […]

We’re Americans because we defied the king. We didn’t negotiate or compromise with the king. We defied the emperors. We are patriots. We are Braveheart.

We need to ride into that battlefield and chop their heads off in November. Any questions?

Um, actually we did end up negotiating with the king. I'm guessing the Nuge isn't big on history.

3 makeitstop  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 10:49:44am

Interesting - Nuge is kicking off a tour in two days. I'm sure the resultant publicity is just a coincidence.

/

4 erik_t  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 10:49:59am

Threaten that you'll either be dead or in jail, get sent to jail for making the threat.

Meta.

(Won't happen of course, nor should it)

5 Pete Puma  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 10:51:23am

Ah, he'd probably claim he had cat scratch fever and get off on a technicality.

6 HappyWarrior  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 10:51:59am

Bet you he claims this is proof of oppression even though SS is non-partisan.

7 Ben G. Hazi  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 10:55:05am

re: #6 HappyWarrior

Bet you he claims this is proof of oppression even though SS is non-partisan.

Doesn't matter to him and the RWNJs because the Secret Service is part of the Executive Branch, which means the President is ultimately in charge.

Therefore, Crazy Uncle Ted is having his rights curtailed by Obama's jackbooted thugs.

8 Simply Sarah  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 10:56:40am

I figure that with all the negative press for the Secret Service the last few days, he'll get off easier than he otherwise might have. Granted, I doubt much would happen either way.

9 Gus  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 10:57:28am

I eagerly await comment from Mitt Romney.

[Crickets]

10 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 10:58:09am

Eh. I couldn't care less about what happens to that jerk. But I guess yesterday I didn't get the full impact of his words, i.e. a possible threat to Obama. If so, maybe he needs to go to jail right now, why wait?

11 Kragar  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 10:58:40am

re: #9 Gus

I eagerly await comment from Mitt Romney.

[Crickets]

"The shithead hasbeens are just the right height."

12 Flounder  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 10:59:30am

I blame it on cat scratch fever.

13 makeitstop  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 10:59:56am

re: #9 Gus

I eagerly await comment from Mitt Romney.

[Crickets]

Fair point. If Hilary Rosen gets tagged as 'an Obama spokesperson' and the administration has to renounce her comments (which they did), then Romney should be held to account for every hateful word Nugent vomits out.

It'll never happen, though.

14 Kragar  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:00:59am

re: #12 Tommy's cone of shame

I blame it on cat scratch fever.

The progressive cognitive degeneration brought about from wangoing too many tangos

15 Varek Raith  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:01:01am

Words have consequences.
What a dipshit.

16 nines09  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:01:12am

Ted Nugent. Another example that money doesn't give you class. Maybe it's all that wild meat he's eaten. He's got worms.

17 Kronocide  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:02:05am

Anybody who uses analogies combining coyotes and urine is a moron.

18 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:02:51am

re: #2 Kragar

We did, in fact, negotiate with the King. That is what the Treaty of Paris of 1783 was, a negotiated end to the war. We didn't carry it to Britain's shores (aside from a few daring raiding parties), and so negotiation was the only possible way to end it.

But that's the real world and real US history, and doesn't involve enough piss and coyotes.

19 Kragar  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:03:35am

re: #17 Kronocide

Anybody who uses analogies combining coyotes and urine is a moron.

Has anyone told him "Ted, urine trouble" yet?

20 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:03:39am

re: #13 makeitstop

Especially since Romney sought out Nugent's endorsement, and Obama did not seek out Rosen's. Romney is much more closely tied to Nugent.

21 HappyWarrior  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:03:40am

re: #9 Gus

I eagerly await comment from Mitt Romney.

[Crickets]

Oh I know, *not something I would have said*

22 Varek Raith  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:04:04am
23 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:04:16am

Nugent -> Political Cesspool -> bunch of racist dipshits.

24 Gus  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:04:46am

re: #23 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

Nugent -> Political Cesspool -> bunch of racist dipshits.

Which ties in with the previous post.

25 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:04:56am

Someone needs to gather all the names and make a visual network representation.

26 HappyWarrior  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:05:00am

re: #23 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

Nugent -> Political Cesspool -> bunch of racist dipshits.

At least they're honest about what they are.

27 Kronocide  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:07:31am

That was the best coyote/piss analogy I've ever heard. Epic.

28 Gus  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:07:43am

Ted Nugent. Warrior, patriot, Tea Party role model, and the draft:

"I ceased cleansing my body. Two weeks before the test I stopped eating food with nutritional value. A week before, I stopped going to the bathroom. I did it in my pants. My pants got crusted up."

29 Kragar  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:07:46am

re: #18 Obdicut

We did, in fact, negotiate with the King. That is what the Treaty of Paris of 1783 was, a negotiated end to the war. We didn't carry it to Britain's shores (aside from a few daring raiding parties), and so negotiation was the only possible way to end it.

But that's the real world and real US history, and doesn't involve enough piss and coyotes.

We are Braveheart.

Castrated, with our head on a pike and our remains quartered and sent across the kingdom?

30 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:08:19am

re: #28 Gus

Perfect Twitter Warrior.

31 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:08:37am

re: #28 Gus

Also: ewww.

32 Gus  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:08:58am

re: #31 The Nightmare of the five Orders of Beggars

Also: ewww.

Yeah. Pretty much.

33 CuriousLurker  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:10:34am

re: #28 Gus

Ted Nugent. Warrior, patriot, Tea Party role model, and the draft:

I think I'll refer to him as Ted Crustypants from now on.

34 Gus  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:11:17am

re: #33 CuriousLurker

I think I'll refer to him as Ted Crustypants from now on.

Ted "Crustypants the Clown" Nugent

35 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:12:13am

OH NOES! Liberal Gestapo investigates free citizen Ted for merely expressing his right to advocate insurrection and threaten the President. Oppressors! Fiends! Stalinists!

36 Gus  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:12:44am

re: #35 Shiplord Kirel

Communism.

37 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:12:51am

Ted "KKKrusty" Nugent.

38 HappyWarrior  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:12:54am

re: #28 Gus

Ted Nugent. Warrior, patriot, Tea Party role model, and the draft:

That's a man's man right there. And he has the nerve to give opponents of current wars shit. Ted heal yourself first.

39 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:14:07am

re: #33 CuriousLurker

I think I'll refer to him as Ted Crustypants from now on.

Yet another conservative icon who decided to sit out the Southeast Asian unpleasantness (most uncomfortably in his case).

40 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:15:04am

Rush "Buttcyst" Limbaugh.

41 Varek Raith  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:15:14am
42 Gus  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:15:38am

re: #39 Shiplord Kirel

Yet another conservative icon who decided to sit out the Southeast Asian unpleasantness (most uncomfortably in his case).

Yeah, but he's "drug free", loves guns and wears American flag shirts.

43 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:15:39am

Stinky Ted.

44 HappyWarrior  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:16:20am

re: #39 Shiplord Kirel

Yet another conservative icon who decided to sit out the Southeast Asian unpleasantness (most uncomfortably in his case).

There's more who sat that out than went. Most of the conservative Vietnam vets are the sane ones on foreign policy. Coincidence maybe but I think these guys understand war better than tools like Teddy here.

45 HappyWarrior  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:17:06am

Be all you can be, just wipe please.

46 Gus  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:17:09am

You can't question me! I have the word "patriot" in my profile and I have an American flag for my profile pic!

47 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:17:20am

I could see shitting yourself once you arrived in Vietnam, but to avoid even going there?

48 labman57  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:19:27am

Sounds like a veiled threat to attack the POTUS -- if Obama wins, Teddy will go after him ... unsuccessfully ... and end up either dead or in jail as a result.

49 Batman  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:21:10am

Listen, if the president gets killed by a has-been rockstar, you don't blame the rockstar, you blame the people who voted for the president. Any questions?

50 Gus  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:23:32am

Maybe Ted Nugent can claim self-defecating humor.

//

51 labman57  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:24:45am

re: #46 Gus

Between the Patriot Act and the rise of the tea party, I suspect that the term "patriot" will forever carry the connotation of members of a political body who promote intolerance and oppression against anyone who has a culture, lifestyle, religion, or ethnic heritage that differs from their own.

52 jaunte  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:28:42am

Ted Nugent:

-“If you don’t know that our government is wiping its ass with the constitution, you’re living under a rock someplace.”

-“We’ve got four Supreme Court justices who don’t believe in the constitution.”

-“If Barack Obama becomes the President in November again, I will either be dead or in jail by this time next year.”

- “Our President, Attorney General, our Vice-President, Hillary Clinton – they’re criminals.”

-“We need to ride into the battlefield and chop their heads off in November.”

-“It’s as Nazi Germany as it gets.”

- “We need to become warriors on the streets of America.”

Charles Pierce:
"As conservatism was developing its powerful infrastructure, the Democratic party was still sucking its thumb over what happened to George McGovern in 1972. While conservative millionaires were pouring money into the construction of the network of institutions on the right, the Democrats were throwing themselves, through the creation of the Democratic Leadership Council, in the general direction of the same money. Nothing arose on the left, or around the Democratic party, that remotely resembled the formidable arsenal of opinion that developed on the right, and of which the Republicans took full advantage, not realizing at the time that all of that success was hollowing out their party's essential intellect until all that is left today is raw, overwhelming id."
[Link: www.esquire.com...]

53 HappyWarrior  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:30:53am

re: #52 jaunte

Ted Nugent:

Charles Pierce:
"As conservatism was developing its powerful infrastructure, the Democratic party was still sucking its thumb over what happened to George McGovern in 1972. While conservative millionaires were pouring money into the construction of the network of institutions on the right, the Democrats were throwing themselves, through the creation of the Democratic Leadership Council, in the general direction of the same money. Nothing arose on the left, or around the Democratic party, that remotely resembled the formidable arsenal of opinion that developed on the right, and of which the Republicans took full advantage, not realizing at the time that all of that success was hollowing out their party's essential intellect until all that is left today is raw, overwhelming id."
[Link: www.esquire.com...]

Yeah just like Nazi Germany which is why Ted is saying all this stuff from a concentration camp. Oh wait, he's supporting Obama's opponent. I really hate it when people compare any leader of the US's rule to Nazi Germany. Not only is it stupid but it's insulting too.

54 jaunte  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:32:12am

re: #53 HappyWarrior

He's a prefect representative of the neo Republican id iot.

55 Gus  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:33:34am
56 jaunte  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:34:48am

Endorsed by psychopaths!

57 Gus  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:36:19am

re: #56 jaunte

Endorsed by psychopaths!

Oh yeah! Look at this Tweet from a PROGRESSIVE threatening Ann Romney.

//Twitchy

58 jaunte  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:37:38am

re: #57 Gus

Twitchy, Jumpy, Antsy and Methy.

59 Gus  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:39:52am

re: #58 jaunte

Crusty, Twitchy, Jumpy, Antsy and Methy.

FTFY

60 HappyWarrior  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:41:13am

re: #55 Gus

I stopped reading at Romney ignores since that's his strategy when something like this happens. Can't hide forever Mitt.

61 jaunte  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:43:20am
62 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:44:13am

I recall that when I was attending Indiana University in my freshman year, Ted Nugent Live was one of those albums you could hear at almost any time of day or night coming from behind a towel-stuffed doorway.

Along with Boston, Leftoverture by Kansas, Wings Over America, Dreamboat Annie by Heart, Fly Like an Eagle by Steve Miller, 2112 by Rush and Peter Frampton Comes Alive.

63 HappyWarrior  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:45:06am

re: #61 jaunte

[Embedded content]

I'm waiting for Fred Durst, hey he has Kid Rock. My Dad likes to joke that he likes Democrats winning better because they get the better musicians to play for them.

64 jaunte  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:45:54am

Como se dice “Etch a Sketch” en espanol?

Donovan Slack: "Over the weekend, I noticed that Kris Kobach, Mitt Romney’s unpaid immigration adviser -- and the inspiration for Romney’s “voluntary deportation” strategy – wasn’t included in a fairly comprehensive Boston Globe rundown of staff, advisers and the kitchen cabinet types."

65 A Mom Anon  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:47:29am

What a phony,lying sack. Mr All American Family man,sure he is. Someone should ask him about Pele Massa. She's not the only underage girl he's been associated with either.

66 Iwouldprefernotto  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:49:17am

But Bill Mahr.....

67 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:49:58am

re: #53 HappyWarrior

Yeah just like Nazi Germany which is why Ted is saying all this stuff from a concentration camp. Oh wait, he's supporting Obama's opponent. I really hate it when people compare any leader of the US's rule to Nazi Germany. Not only is it stupid but it's insulting too.

The brownshirts are just having problems finding his address.

68 HappyWarrior  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:50:07am

re: #64 jaunte

Como se dice “Etch a Sketch” en espanol?

He should have said hide and go seek not Etch a Sketch. Mr. Romney's what's your position on Lily Ledbetter? *hides*

69 jaunte  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:51:53am

re: #56 jaunte

Endorsed by psychopaths!

Expanding on that, here's Nugent's solution for Iraq:

"Our failure has been not to Nagasaki them."

70 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:51:56am
after a long heart&soul conversation with MittRomney today I concluded this goodman will properly represent we the people & I endorsed him
— Ted Nugent (@TedNugent) March 2, 2012

So Romney won't have to suck his gun?

71 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:54:02am

re: #70 The Ghost of a Flea

His shit-crusted gun.

72 HappyWarrior  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:54:14am

Honestly I am surprised he endorsed Romney. He was a Huckabee guy I think in 2008. It would be darkly humorous if Romney's policies resulted in him losing his beloved arsenal but knowing hacks like Ted he'd blame Obama since everything is Obama's fault.

73 Interesting Times  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:03:39pm
74 Kragar  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:05:20pm

South Carolina's Attorney General Raises Money for James O'Keefe

Apparently, South Carolina’s top prosecutor, Republican Alan Wilson, has no problem aiding an activist who not only has deceptively manipulated and edited videos of his past “stings” but also “received three years of probation, a fine of $1,500 and 100 hours of community service” after pleading guilty “to entering real property belonging to the United States under false pretenses.” O’Keefe and his cohorts dressed up as telephone workers and tried to tamper with the phones of Senator Mary Landrieu’s office.

75 HappyWarrior  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:06:59pm
76 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:08:41pm

This is why I am so vicious against the Taliban:

Afghan schoolgirls poisoned in anti-education attack

About 150 Afghan schoolgirls were poisoned on Tuesday after drinking contaminated water at a high school in the country's north, officials said, blaming it on conservative radicals opposed to female education.

Everytime something like this happens, the same feeling boils up. That the Taliban are not humans, they are demons, and need to be treated as such. If someone defends the Taliban in front of me, I assume them to be my enemy, and treat them as a terrorist. This is what got me and the MSA President in confrontation, as he said I should get off their back.

77 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:09:26pm

re: #76 ProGunLiberal

That the Taliban are not humans,

Yes they are. Deal with it.

78 Shvaughn  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:10:28pm

re: #76 ProGunLiberal

That the Taliban are not humans, they are demons, and need to be treated as such.

You're literally dehumanizing and demonizing other people. No good can ever come from that.

79 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:10:46pm

Every evil person throughout history: Turns out they were all humans, no actual demons. Whodathunk it?

80 HappyWarrior  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:12:31pm

re: #79 Obdicut

Every evil person throughout history: Turns out they were all humans, no actual demons. Whodathunk it?

I thought the British royals were reptles though. Anyhow, my shot at Dave Icke aside I agree with what you're saying. Humans are capable of such genuine decency and evil and often it all interlaps.

81 Kragar  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:12:54pm

re: #79 Obdicut

Every evil person throughout history: Turns out they were all humans, no actual demons. Whodathunk it?

Well, obviously they weren't demons. The demons fled their bodies once the host died. Duh.
/

82 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:13:02pm

re: #79 Obdicut

I admit it isn't rational, but a reflex based on pre-existing anger.

At the same time, this is why the Taliban should not be at any negotiating table.

83 HappyWarrior  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:14:13pm

re: #82 ProGunLiberal

I admit it isn't rational, but a reflex based on pre-existing anger.

At the same time, this is why the Taliban should not be at any negotiating table.

Just say that instead of dehumanizing them. You risk making yourself sound like what you hate when you do that.

84 Ben G. Hazi  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:15:06pm

re: #48 labman57

Sounds like a veiled threat to attack the POTUS -- if Obama wins, Teddy will go after him ... unsuccessfully ... and end up either dead or in jail as a result.

Or that Obama's jackbooted thugs would kill him or throw him in a deep, dark hole simply because he speaks Truth©...

Could have been a veiled threat, could have been a Black Helicopter delusion; either way, it's batshit crazy.

85 Kragar  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:15:26pm

Wow, the GOP confidence in Romney is amazing.

Poll: Christie Leads Republicans, Democrats Want Clinton In 2016

A new national survey from Public Policy Polling (D) shows that the perferred matchup for partisans in a 2016 presidential matchup is a contest between current Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie (R).

On the Democratic side, the battle isn’t close – Clinton gets 57 percent of the vote, with current Vice President Joe Biden the only other candidate in double digits with 14. Christie wins a trial heat among Republicans in a squeaker, 21 percent of the total, followed by former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush and former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee at 17 percent each, former Pennsylvania Senator Rick Santorum at 12 and Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL) at 10 to round out those GOP candidates in double digits.

86 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:15:44pm

re: #82 ProGunLiberal

It's not a reflex. You typed it out. That's not a reflexive action. You really have to stop excusing yourself and really, really deal with your anger addiction.

The Taliban are humans. Humans are capable of enormous acts of evil. Saying that they are not human and deserve to be treated as such is bizarre eliminationist rhetoric nearly similar to what the Taliban uses.

Please, please stop making excuses for your behavior. If you want to fly off the handle and say that some people are human, I'm not going to stop you, but don't bullshit that it's a reflex. It's not.

87 HappyWarrior  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:16:23pm

I don't have my writings on my computer here but there's a line I used that describes the complexity of man, on how good men can do evil and bad ones can do good even. I'm not suggesting I don't believe in evil, quite the contrary actuallly but rather that we are complex beings.

88 blueraven  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:17:30pm

re: #76 ProGunLiberal

This is why I am so vicious against the Taliban:

Afghan schoolgirls poisoned in anti-education attack

Everytime something like this happens, the same feeling boils up. That the Taliban are not humans, they are demons, and need to be treated as such. If someone defends the Taliban in front of me, I assume them to be my enemy, and treat them as a terrorist. This is what got me and the MSA President in confrontation, as he said I should get off their back.

Boy, it is always about YOU! This is an evil act, no doubt about it. These poor girls are the victims...You are NOT.

Your editorializing always brings it back to YOUR feelings and YOUR problems and actions.

89 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:18:28pm

I'll bet the little coward shit himself again...

90 Targetpractice  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:18:44pm

re: #85 Kragar

Wow, the GOP confidence in Romney is amazing.

Poll: Christie Leads Republicans, Democrats Want Clinton In 2016

Christie I definitely see making a run, but I think Hillary's made it clear that after this year, she's calling it quits. Personally can't blame her, between the hate directed her as First Lady, a presidential candidate, and now SecState, the woman has gotta be really wanting some quiet time away from the loonies.

91 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:19:18pm

re: #90 Targetpractice

She'll probably be able to play king (or queen) maker pretty effectively.

92 gwangung  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:20:25pm

re: #90 Targetpractice

Christie I definitely see making a run, but I think Hillary's made it clear that after this year, she's calling it quits. Personally can't blame her, between the hate directed her as First Lady, a presidential candidate, and now SecState, the woman has gotta be really wanting some quiet time away from the loonies.

Heck, I'm not sure she'd even want to wait until 2016 to do that...I think she wants to get out of there in 2013...

93 Targetpractice  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:21:14pm

re: #92 gwangung

Heck, I'm not sure she'd even want to wait until 2016 to do that...I think she wants to get out of there in 2013...

I'd have to dig for the article, but she was saying a short while back that she's pretty much already tendered her resignation after this year. That if Obama gets reelected, he'll be shopping around for a new SecState come next year.

94 Ben G. Hazi  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:21:27pm

re: #76 ProGunLiberal

You must learn to govern your passions, lest you become what you hate.

95 HappyWarrior  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:21:30pm

re: #90 Targetpractice

Christie I definitely see making a run, but I think Hillary's made it clear that after this year, she's calling it quits. Personally can't blame her, between the hate directed her as First Lady, a presidential candidate, and now SecState, the woman has gotta be really wanting some quiet time away from the loonies.

Am I the only one who sees Christie as a "paper frontrunner?" I just see Rudy Redux with the guy. He'll run a smarter campaign but I can't see that guy doing well with Evangelicals and rural voters who make up a big chunk of Republican primary voters. Yes, Santorum's Catholic too but Christie isn't their type and he doesn't have Mitt's war chest.

96 Decatur Deb  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:22:06pm

re: #82 ProGunLiberal

I admit it isn't rational, but a reflex based on pre-existing anger.

At the same time, this is why the Taliban should not be at any negotiating table.

It's a learned behavior, and you learned it from a master. Go get a serious guru who can help you unlearn it. If you don't, you are going to dominate the news cycle for one slow weekend.

97 Targetpractice  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:23:00pm

re: #95 HappyWarrior

Am I the only one who sees Christie as a "paper frontrunner?" I just see Rudy Redux with the guy. He'll run a smarter campaign but I can't see that guy doing well with Evangelicals and rural voters who make up a big chunk of Republican primary voters. Yes, Santorum's Catholic too but Christie isn't their type and he doesn't have Mitt's war chest.

I see Christie as a runner, but I think Santorum's setting himself up as '16's "inevitable candidate," assuming Willard gets his ass handed to him in November.

98 Gus  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:23:06pm

Wango tango!

99 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:23:35pm

re: #85 Kragar

Wow, the GOP confidence in Romney is amazing.

Poll: Christie Leads Republicans, Democrats Want Clinton In 2016

Christies problem is that of Santorum this year - Santorum will be the party anointed one in 2916 (heh: 2016, ok? :) ) and the system will be stacked against him. Too bad ... not.

100 HappyWarrior  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:23:57pm

re: #97 Targetpractice

I see Christie as a runner, but I think Santorum's setting himself up as '16's "inevitable candidate," assuming Willard gets his ass handed to him in November.

It will back rather than buck trends if Santorum is the frontrunner in 2016.

101 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:24:17pm

re: #99 William Barnett-Lewis

Santorum will be the party anointed one in 2916

Damn GOP reanimators.

102 Kragar  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:25:08pm

re: #90 Targetpractice

re: #99 William Barnett-Lewis

I find it telling they're already counting Romney out of the 2016 running.

103 HappyWarrior  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:25:36pm

re: #101 Obdicut

Damn GOP reanimators.

Better joke than I had for that typo. 958 year old Santorum may be more sane than 58 year old RS though.

104 HappyWarrior  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:26:44pm

re: #102 Kragar

re: #99 William Barnett-Lewis

I find it telling they're already counting Romney out of the 2016 running.

Well if Obama beats him, his political career is done. No one likes a loser unless your name is Grover, Adlai, William Jennings, or Thomas.

105 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:28:43pm

re: #100 HappyWarrior

It will back rather than buck trends if Santorum is the frontrunner in 2016.

He will have the argument that the GOP wants to hear: "We lost in 2012 because did not nominate a true conservative!"

106 HappyWarrior  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:29:22pm

re: #105 Expand Your Ground

He will have the argument that the GOP wants to hear: "We lost in 2012 because did not nominate a true conservative!"

Precisely. He's probably already got the draft of the stump speech ready to go.

107 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:29:43pm

re: #102 Kragar

re: #99 William Barnett-Lewis

I find it telling they're already counting Romney out of the 2016 running.

I'm reminded of the toxicity of of Mondale in and after '84 in the Democratic Party. Mittens will be worse if he fails and I expect he will given how huge chunks of the base think he's simply a white Obama and that being Mormon is little different from Muslim. Going to be lots of them staying home unless the Crazy Uncle goes for a third party run and that would be a delightful thing to see :)

108 Targetpractice  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:30:18pm

re: #100 HappyWarrior

It will back rather than buck trends if Santorum is the frontrunner in 2016.

Pretty much. Any "moderate" candidates out there that are speculated to be '16 contenders? Yeah, you can pretty much write them off in the wake of a Romney loss. Rick's got himself rather nicely set up as the guy to beat and anybody who looks even the least bit to the left of him will be savaged in the primaries.

109 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:30:44pm

re: #106 HappyWarrior

Precisely. He's probably already got the draft of the stump speech ready to go.

He'll give it election night right after Mittens concession speech.

110 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:30:52pm

re: #104 HappyWarrior

Only Grover won though.

Who is this Thomas? I know the answer is obvious, but I can't figure it out.

111 HappyWarrior  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:33:06pm

re: #110 ProGunLiberal

Only Grover won though.

Who is this Thomas? I know the answer is obvious, but I can't figure it out.

Dewey. He ran in '44 and '48. And would have again in '52 if not for Ike. I was talking about the nominating process though. You get one chance as nominee. There are no second acts in modern American candidacies to steal Fitzgerald's line about second acts in American lives. There's another pattern those four guys have too and it's they were all young politically. All under 50 I believe for most of their political hay-day.

112 Charles Johnson  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:34:56pm

Can't help noticing that Ted Nugent has ... ahem ... a ponytail.

113 Gus  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:35:22pm

re: #112 Charles Johnson

Can't help noticing that Ted Nugent has ... ahem ... a ponytail.

I was going to mention that.

114 Targetpractice  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:35:23pm

re: #109 William Barnett-Lewis

He'll give it election night right after Mittens concession speech.

I figure I'll be waiting a bit, but I'm curious to see whether or not Santorum will ultimately endorse Romney or if he'll just go with the non-committal "vote you conscience" bit. Charlie Pierce, quoted above, has been on record saying that if Ricky wants to be considered the heir-apparent in the aftermath of a Romney bust, he has to "forgive" Romney and endorse him. I don't think, with the base as it is, that that would go over well.

115 jaunte  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:35:34pm

Emily Hauser:

I’m on record as being constantly afraid for Barack Obama’s life, but I’ll be honest: I don’t really think that Ted Nugent’s about to take up arms against the President of these United States. He has a big mouth, and his life is now largely dedicated to trolling the America left. Whatevs, dude.

But the thing is, Ted Nugent is not the only American nutjob with a gun. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but as a nation, we are fairly bristling with guns, not to mention those who like to use them.

My concern is not that Nugent will storm the ramparts, but that someone listening to him will think that he offers a spiffing solution to the nation’s problems, and oh hey! I have a big gun right here!

There are surely those who agree, and will continue to agree, that political violence is a good idea, especially when they hear the thundering silence from the right that refuses to condemn such rhetoric. But if the Secret Service makes its presence felt? It’ll slow a few hands.
[Link: emilylhauserinmyhead.wordpress.com...]

116 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:35:55pm

re: #111 HappyWarrior

Oh, okay.

If you said Dewey, I would know who was being talked about.

117 jaunte  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:36:14pm

re: #112 Charles Johnson

His must have lost the magic a while back.

118 Decatur Deb  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:36:22pm

Stinky B should be set upon anyone who mentions 2016 before Dec 2012.

119 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:37:06pm

re: #115 jaunte

Well, the Secret Service is making its presence felt, so Mission Accomplished.

120 wrenchwench  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:37:20pm

re: #117 jaunte

His must have lost the magic a while back.

Not to mention the 'jazzy'.

121 HappyWarrior  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:38:16pm

re: #116 ProGunLiberal

Oh, okay.

If you said Dewey, I would know who was being talked about.

Gotcha. But anyhow my bet is if he had ran in '52, he would have lost to Taft. Many were convinced that Dewey lost because he wasn't conservative enough. Sound familiar? Dewey is a good guy iin my book even though HST is my favorite 20th century president.

122 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:40:04pm

re: #121 HappyWarrior

I think all the Presidents between FDR and JFK were great.

Hell, Johnson wasn't too bad if you take Vietnam out of the picture. Which is difficult.

123 Kragar  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:42:03pm

re: #122 ProGunLiberal

I think all the Presidents between FDR and JFK were great.

Hell, Johnson wasn't too bad if you take Vietnam out of the picture. Which is difficult.

Nixon, judged solely by his first term, did some amazing work.

Of course once you add in Watergate...

124 Decatur Deb  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:44:15pm

re: #123 Kragar

Nixon, judged solely by his first term, did some amazing work.

Of course once you add in Watergate...

Carter was fine, if you overlook Khomeni.

125 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:44:21pm

re: #123 Kragar

Very true.

126 Kragar  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:46:34pm

re: #124 Decatur Deb

Carter was fine, if you overlook Khomeni.

Ghengis Kahn was great if you overlook the pillaging.

127 Sionainn  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:48:19pm

re: #96 Decatur Deb

It's a learned behavior, and you learned it from a master. Go get a serious guru who can help you unlearn it. If you don't, you are going to dominate the news cycle for one slow weekend.

Excellent point. It is a learned behavior...I should know...I've had plenty of anger issues myself, thanks to watching how my dad handles life. I've had to make a conscious effort to react in a reasonable and appropriate way since I've had children because I definitely don't want them to grow up with the same problem. I'm not always successful, but it's better day by day. I also take the time to discuss with them more appropriate ways to deal with things that happen that they don't like instead of them throwing a fit. I'm a lot happier without all that anger. That shit'll kill you.

128 Decatur Deb  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:48:26pm

re: #126 Kragar

Ghengis Kahn was great if you overlook the pillaging.

William Teach performed amazing feats of seamanship.

129 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:48:26pm

re: #126 Kragar

He only killed on a larger scale than others. He did tons of cool stuff, too. And he remained OG Mongol.

130 Killgore Trout  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:48:40pm

re: #124 Decatur Deb

Carter was fine, if you overlook Khomeni.

...and the economy and gas prices and OPEC. I'm not a Carter fan but I'm not sure how much of his failed presidency was his fault.

131 Decatur Deb  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:49:39pm

re: #130 Killgore Trout

...and the economy and gas prices and OPEC. I'm not a Carter fan but I'm not sure how much of his failed presidency was his fault.

It was all Khomeni, I tell you--and that damned Playboy interview.

132 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:50:38pm

re: #131 Decatur Deb

The Rabbit Incident didn't help.

133 Gus  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:51:21pm

NRO -> Robert Weissberg -> American Renaissance -> James Edwards -> Ted Nugent -> Mitt Romney

134 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:51:44pm

Looks like one guy in Europe is taking points from the Republican Party

135 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:53:23pm

re: #133 Gus

I think it's time for a flowchart or family tree of this.

136 lawhawk  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:54:01pm

re: #134 ProGunLiberal

Comparing the kids he killed to the Hitler Youth, all while he rants and raves about the need to protect whites from the incoming Islamic hordes and non-whites.

Yeah, cognitive dissonance is alive and well...

137 Gus  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:54:10pm

re: #135 ProGunLiberal

I think it's time for a flowchart or family tree of this.

I'm thinking about it. Wondering if there's some kind of program to make it easier. I forgot the name of the website that does this for political types.

138 Targetpractice  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:54:15pm

re: #133 Gus

NRO -> Robert Weissberg -> American Renaissance -> James Edwards -> Ted Nugent -> Mitt Romney

Yeah, but where's the connection Kevin Bacon?

///

139 wrenchwench  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:54:34pm

re: #134 ProGunLiberal

Looks like one guy in Europe is taking points from the Republican Party

He might get some discussion on that with a certain Pope.

140 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:55:10pm

re: #137 Gus

If you want to collaborate on something, I'm good at making wireframes and stuff. I won't have free time for a big project until this weekend, though.

141 Decatur Deb  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:55:28pm

re: #135 ProGunLiberal

I think it's time for a flowchart or family tree of this.

There is some kind of analytical 'bubble' graphic that displays the direction and strength of such relationships. Don't have it at hand, and I gave away my graphical presentation textbooks when I left Army..

142 Gus  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:55:52pm

re: #138 Targetpractice

Yeah, but where's the connection Kevin Bacon?

///

NRO -> Robert Weissberg -> American Renaissance -> James Edwards -> Ted Nugent -> Mitt Romney

Kevin Bacon

Fixed!

143 Gus  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:56:30pm

re: #140 Obdicut

If you want to collaborate on something, I'm good at making wireframes and stuff. I won't have free time for a big project until this weekend, though.

OK. We'll see what happens. It's probably a huge project when you think about it.

144 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:57:13pm

re: #139 wrenchwench

With that dickweed Benedict? Yeah, I can see it.

145 Kragar  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:57:39pm

Fischer: The Federal Income Tax is 'Flatly Unconstitutional'

Bryan Fischer apparently decided that it was as good a time as any to reveal that he happens to subscribe to the conspiracy theory that the Federal Government has no authority to collect income taxes and the only reason he even agrees to pay this "extortion money" is because he doesn't want to go to jail:


The US Constitution: section 8

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States

146 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:58:19pm

re: #143 Gus

OK. We'll see what happens. It's probably a huge project when you think about it.

Probably easiest to just demonstrate how Romney is tied to the worst of the worst.

147 wrenchwench  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:58:37pm

re: #144 ProGunLiberal

With that dickweed Benedict? Yeah, I can see it.

Now, now. No need to be disrespectful. And I don't consider a child responsible for Hitler's actions.

148 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:59:40pm

re: #145 Kragar

Fischer: The Federal Income Tax is 'Flatly Unconstitutional'


The US Constitution: section 8

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States

He only Renders unto Caesar.

149 Targetpractice  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:59:46pm

re: #145 Kragar

Fischer: The Federal Income Tax is 'Flatly Unconstitutional'


The US Constitution: section 8

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States

Likewise

The US Constitution: Amendment 16

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

150 Decatur Deb  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:59:53pm

re: #146 Obdicut

Probably easiest to just demonstrate how Romney is tied to the worst of the worst.

It's all there in his financial disclosure documentation.

Oh....

151 Gus  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 12:59:56pm

re: #146 Obdicut

Probably easiest to just demonstrate how Romney is tied to the worst of the worst.

Yeah. As a starting off point that would be good. Place Romney in the center. Keep your eyes on the prize and all that.

152 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:01:28pm

re: #147 wrenchwench

Oh, not even thinking about that. I'm thinking of other things aside from Benedict's childhood.

153 Gus  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:01:36pm

Ted Nugent (I)
was in
Private Parts (1997)
with
Ali Marsh
was in
Picture Perfect (1997)
with
Kevin Bacon

154 wrenchwench  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:02:54pm

re: #152 ProGunLiberal

Oh, not even thinking about that. I'm thinking of other things aside from Benedict's childhood.

That warrant the epithet? Control your language and you control your thinking.

155 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:02:57pm

re: #153 Gus

2 Degrees of separation, right?

156 Gus  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:03:16pm

re: #155 ProGunLiberal

2 Degrees of separation, right?

[Link: oracleofbacon.org...]

157 Killgore Trout  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:03:41pm

OMG! Radical fundie Mormons!

Why Ann Stayed Home

It's not really about the money. Mrs. Romney's Mormon faith glorifies motherhood — and preaches the need for women to sacrifice their careers

I've done my fair share of goofing on Mormons but you have to acknowledge they are some of the happiest and family oriented people you'll ever meet.

158 Ben G. Hazi  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:03:42pm

re: #112 Charles Johnson

Can't help noticing that Ted Nugent has ... ahem ... a ponytail.

Yes, but is it a magic ponytail?
///

re: #153 Gus

Ted Nugent (I)
was in
Private Parts (1997)
with
Ali Marsh
was in
Picture Perfect (1997)
with
Kevin Bacon

Excellent "Six Degrees" play there, Gus.

159 wrenchwench  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:05:07pm

re: #156 Gus

[Link: oracleofbacon.org...]

Mitt Romney
was in
"Late Show with David Letterman" (1993) {(#19.61)}
with
Tom Cruise
was in
2000 Blockbuster Entertainment Awards (2000) (TV)
with
Kevin Bacon

160 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:05:21pm

re: #154 wrenchwench

I can back down on the epithet. However, the current Pope has been an exceedingly poor leader. The Child Sex Abuse Scandal for starters.

161 Lidane  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:05:28pm

re: #6 HappyWarrior

Bet you he claims this is proof of oppression even though SS is non-partisan.

He'll use it to claim that Obama is using Ted's "patriotic" rant as way of distracting people from the Secret Service prostitution scandal.

162 wrenchwench  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:05:48pm

re: #160 ProGunLiberal

I can back down on the epithet. However, the current Pope has been an exceedingly poor leader. The Child Sex Abuse Scandal for starters.

Agreed.

163 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:06:55pm

re: #153 Gus

I (1)

worked on an audio/book version of Kung Fu Panda with

Jack Black (2)

Who was in Run Ronnie Run with

Steve Warren (3)

Who was in Jayne Mansfield's Car with

Kevin Bacon (4)

So I have a Bacon number of 4, right?

164 wrenchwench  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:07:01pm

Off to the bank. Anybody want anything?

/mega

165 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:07:38pm

re: #157 Killgore Trout

You managed to quantify happiness at some point? Wasn't that tricky?

166 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:08:11pm

re: #157 Killgore Trout

OMG! Radical fundie Mormons!

Why Ann Stayed Home

I've done my fair share of goofing on Mormons but you have to acknowledge they are some of the happiest and family oriented people you'll ever meet.

It's supposed to be about individual choice: families are supposed to be free to work out the career/family balance that suits them best.

Which is not the Mormon approach...

167 Kragar  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:08:55pm

re: #165 Obdicut

You managed to quantify happiness at some point? Wasn't that tricky?

I hit peak "crush my enemies, see them driven before me and heard the lamentations of the women."

168 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:09:03pm

re: #163 Obdicut


Going by the Oracle of Bacon, it actually seems to be three.

169 Killgore Trout  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:09:59pm

re: #165 Obdicut

You managed to quantify happiness at some point? Wasn't that tricky?

Not really. They also tend to not give a shit about converting people when not on a mission. They're really nice people.

170 Lidane  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:10:56pm

re: #93 Targetpractice

I'd have to dig for the article, but she was saying a short while back that she's pretty much already tendered her resignation after this year. That if Obama gets reelected, he'll be shopping around for a new SecState come next year.

Let him hire Jon Huntsman. It's not like the GOP wants him anyway.

171 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:11:38pm

re: #169 Killgore Trout

Not really. They also tend to not give a shit about converting people when not on a mission. They're really nice people.

That's nice. Vague generalizations about groups being nice is a pretty useful thing, and very supportable.

Weird.

172 Ben G. Hazi  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:14:23pm

re: #170 Lidane

Let him hire Jon Huntsman. It's not like the GOP wants him anyway.

That's actually not a bad idea; I hope they have both considered it.

To the base, Huntsman is and will always be a RINO, for being a Mormon and for working for Obama, so he might as well do some good and take it as far as he can.

173 Lidane  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:18:31pm

re: #172 GnarlyGnomeOfGnowledge

That's actually not a bad idea; I hope they have both considered it.

To the base, Huntsman is and will always be a RINO, for being a Mormon and for working for Obama, so he might as well do some good and take it as far as he can.

Plus, fluent in Mandarin and spent years as the Ambassador to China. If that doesn't qualify him for the job, I don't know what else does.

174 Shvaughn  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:32:09pm

re: #157 Killgore Trout

OMG! Radical fundie Mormons!

Why Ann Stayed Home

I've done my fair share of goofing on Mormons but you have to acknowledge they are some of the happiest and family oriented people you'll ever meet.

Unless you're talking about gay families.

175 Shvaughn  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:34:25pm

re: #169 Killgore Trout

They're really nice people.

Unless you're gay.

176 Gus  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:36:36pm

re: #157 Killgore Trout

OMG! Radical fundie Mormons!

Why Ann Stayed Home

I've done my fair share of goofing on Mormons but you have to acknowledge they are some of the happiest and family oriented people you'll ever meet.

By McKay Coppins.

Buzzfeed swings.

And misses.

177 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 1:47:14pm

re: #174 Shvaughn

Unless you're talking about gay families.

it just so happens that their nice people want to prevent our nice people from being treated as equal under the constitution, because sodomites or whatever


Church power structures seem to just always be evil, it just so happens

178 efuseakay  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 2:05:47pm

He's caught in a stranglehold!

179 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 2:24:12pm

re: #48 labman57

Sounds like a veiled threat to attack the POTUS -- if Obama wins, Teddy will go after him ... unsuccessfully ... and end up either dead or in jail as a result.

Who threatens to botch an assassination attempt?

180 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 2:38:46pm

re: #179 SanFranciscoZionist

Being in jail afterwards isn't a botch of the assassination attempt, though.


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