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1 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 10:51:25pm

video made me dizzy.

2 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:15:04pm

So where are you Sergey?

3 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:15:47pm

re: #2 ggt

So where are you Sergey?

Still reading the article about intelligence.

4 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:16:46pm

re: #3 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Still reading the article about intelligence.

There is a joke in there somewhere.

what article?

5 engineer cat  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:17:25pm

i've been practising my hepcat playlist

these foolish things
please keep me in your dreams
never swat a fly
any bonds today

i first got my love of swing from that underappreciated master of hep crooning, bugs bunny, who does a great job on the last tune listed

6 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:18:19pm

re: #4 ggt

Oh, I gave the link about it in some thread - the last one or the one before that. PDF: [Link: scottbarrykaufman.com...] Basically talks about what we know about intelligence, influence of genes and environment, etc.

7 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:21:29pm

re: #6 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Oh, I gave the link about it in some thread - the last one or the one before that. PDF: [Link: scottbarrykaufman.com...] Basically talks about what we know about intelligence, influence of genes and environment, etc.

I read an article the other day about pre-school education. It seems it only benefits the lower socio-economic kids. More affluent kids get lots of stimulation and don't need the added stimuation of pre-school.

And the benefits are ginormus. We really need to keep funding Head Start and such programs.

I'm from the Montessori school of thinking. Every child is gifted, we just need to provide the environment for them to grow as they were intended by the Flying Spaghetti Monster to grow.

8 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:23:18pm

re: #7 ggt

Pretty much.

9 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:25:53pm

Cuteness for the evening.

10 Gus  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:26:07pm

It's odd you know. That a country that was founded by immigrants. Many of who escaped religious or ethnic persecution. That required the invasion of a land which was already populated with a culture of people. Many of whom were killed in the wars against the Indians. A nation of different languages, religions, ethnicities and races. A nation that brought slaves from Africa who literally built most our infrastructure along with the Chinese in the West. That that same nation is now populated with people demanding that we retain an "American identity" that never really existed and fear the others that now come to our shores.

11 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:31:09pm
12 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:32:06pm

re: #10 Gus

It's odd you know. That a country that was founded by immigrants. Many of who escaped religious or ethnic persecution. That required the invasion of a land which was already populated with a culture of people. Many of whom were killed in the wars against the Indians. A nation of different languages, religions, ethnicities and races. A nation that brought slaves from Africa who literally built most our infrastructure along with the Chinese in the West. That that same nation is now populated with people demanding that we retain an "American identity" that never really existed and fear the others that now come to our shores.

B,b,but WE ARE A CHRISTIAN NATION!

/

I don't know how to do the purple stuff.

13 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:34:20pm
14 AK-47%  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:34:52pm

re: #12 ggt

B,b,but WE ARE A CHRISTIAN NATION!

/

I don't know how to do the purple stuff.

[ wingnut ] insert rant [ /wingnut ]

remove spaces and you get

RW talking point

15 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:36:55pm

re: #14 Expand Your Ground

[ wingnut ] insert rant [ /wingnut ]

remove spaces and you get

very kool!

16 Digital Display  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:37:31pm

You know what this video is missing? James Earl Jones narrating some new age poetry shit over the music...

Stars..Night..Our world..Built it Ray..

17 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:38:01pm

re: #16 HoosierHoops

You know what this video is missing? James Earl Jones narrating some new age poetry shit over the music...

Stars..Night..Our world..Built it Ray..

nah

18 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:38:45pm

I'm off to bed.

You can now return to your regularly scheduled late-night thread.

Have a good one all!

19 Gus  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:39:05pm

re: #12 ggt

B,b,but WE ARE A CHRISTIAN NATION!

/

I don't know how to do the purple stuff.

That's OK. Seriously. It's kind of absurd. This country was first divided into basic block of England, France, Spain, and Indians. Indians themselves were also divided into separate nations. The dominant power was of course British. Along with that were the Africans slaves and the Chinese workers. Then the various European and Asian immigrants that came here over time. All with different languages and cultures.

20 AK-47%  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:45:35pm

It is also a founding myth that the Pilgrims came over here to enjoy freedom from religious persecution.

They came over in order to be free to practice their own form of religious persecution without outside interference.

21 Digital Display  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:47:09pm

re: #16 HoosierHoops

You know what this video is missing? James Earl Jones narrating some new age poetry shit over the music...

Stars..Night..Our world..Built it Ray..

No? OK how about in the video he has a UFO fly across the sky? Talk about going viral..and not just any UFO..One that has a dog tied to the top..

22 AK-47%  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:48:14pm

Wild, wild West:

"There is a very thin line between communism, progressivism, Marxism, Socialism ... it's about nationalizing production, it's about creating and expanding the welfare state. It's about this idea of social and economic justice," said the retired military officer.

In other words "I don't really understand any of them, but I know they are bad because they are different from my ideas".

23 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:50:02pm

I'm doing I will regret in about, oh, 4 minutes?

24 Gus  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:50:28pm
25 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:51:28pm

re: #23 ProGunLiberal

Actually, it was about 51 seconds.

26 Digital Display  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:51:37pm

re: #23 ProGunLiberal

I'm doing I will regret in about, oh, 4 minutes?

What up little bro?

27 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:54:19pm

re: #26 HoosierHoops

About 20-25 of my FB friends have been gushing about some band from Britain called One Direction. Well, when listening to a TSwift song, I saw something from them in the sidebar (Vevo will link to other artists), so I decided to click and see what they sound like.

I have an exceedingly good memory. One Direction is the 1990's Boy Bands all over again.

I was listening to this song, when I saw that in the sidebar.

28 AK-47%  Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:59:47pm

Thanks for filling us in on what my kids will be listening to in coming weeks.

29 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 12:01:23am

re: #28 Expand Your Ground

You're welcome. I expect some sort of compensation the martyrdom of my ears.

30 Digital Display  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 12:02:27am

re: #27 ProGunLiberal

About 20-25 of my FB friends have been gushing about some band from Britain called One Direction. Well, when listening to a TSwift song, I saw something from them in the sidebar (Vevo will link to other artists), so I decided to click and see what they sound like.

I have an exceedingly good memory. One Direction is the 1990's Boy Bands all over again.

I was listening to this song, when I saw that in the sidebar.

[Embedded content]

I don't listen to her much..I've heard her hits..I'll say this..She is an extremely talented young Lady.. not just a pretty face.

31 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 12:04:54am

re: #30 HoosierHoops

Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of One Direction.

I shall spare you all the Boy Band Garbage, and not link to it.

32 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 12:07:27am

re: #29 ProGunLiberal

You're welcome. I expect some sort of compensation for the martyrdom of my ears that has occurred.

That makes more sense.

33 Digital Display  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 12:08:17am

re: #31 ProGunLiberal

Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of One Direction.

I shall spare you all the Boy Band Garbage, and not link to it.

check this out.. listen to the words

34 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 12:09:31am

Interesting, kind of self-fulfilling prophecy:

Our understanding of group differences in intellectual ability
is furthered by the very large literature on psychological
reactions to negative stereotypes. Steele and Aronson
(1995) argued that when test takers are aware of widespread
stereotypes that impugn a group’s intelligence (e.g.,
“Black people are stupid,” “Girls can’t do math”), they
frequently experience the threat of devaluation—by the
self, by others, or by both. The resulting arousal and
anxiety can impair executive functioning on complex tasks
such as standardized aptitude tests. Steele and Aronson
called this response stereotype threat and demonstrated in
a series of experiments that Black test takers scored considerably
better—sometimes far better—on intellectual
tests when the test was presented in a manner that downplayed
ability evaluation or downplayed the relevance of
race. Since the publication of Steele and Aronson’s 1995
article, some 200 replications of the effect have been published,
extending the findings to women and mathematics
abilities, Latinos and verbal abilities, elderly individuals
and short-term memory abilities, low-income students and
verbal abilities, and a number of nonacademic domains as
well. See Steele, Spencer, and Aronson (2002) and Aronson
and McGlone (2009) for reviews of the literature.
Two recent meta-analyses reported by Walton and
Spencer (2009) that included the data from nearly 19,000
students indicate that stereotype threat can cause tests to
underestimate the true abilities of students likely to experience
stereotype threat (Walton & Spencer, 2009). Walton
and Spencer’s analysis suggests a conservative estimate
that women’s math performance and Black students’ verbal
performance are suppressed by about 0.2 SD. In a number
of the individual studies, however, the suppression was
closer to a full standard deviation.
The stereotype threat formulation has led to a variety
of simple educational interventions conducted in schools
and colleges that have substantially raised the achievement
of Black students (e.g., Aronson, Fried, & Good, 2002;
G. L. Cohen, Garcia, Apfel, & Master, 2006) and the
achievement of girls in mathematics (Blackwell, Trzesniewski,
& Dweck, 2007; Good, Aronson, & Inzlicht, 2003).
The studies suggest that stereotype threat suppresses realworld
intellectual achievements. Some of the interventions
seem remarkably minor on the surface yet produce substantial
gains in academic achievement. For example, simple
efforts at persuading minority students that their intelligence
is under their control to a substantial extent have
nontrivial effects on academic performance (Aronson et al.,
2002; Blackwell et al., 2007).

35 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 12:11:19am

re: #33 HoosierHoops

Good band. I remember them, and have some of their songs on my MP3.

Jezebel has something on One Direction:

One Direction Nearly Had a Boy Band Rumble with The Wanted

I feel like I just fell into a time warp. Back to the late 90's.

36 Digital Display  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 12:15:58am

re: #35 ProGunLiberal

Good band. I remember them, and have some of their songs on my MP3.

Jezebel has something on One Direction:

One Direction Nearly Had a Boy Band Rumble with The Wanted

I feel like I just fell into a time warp. Back to the late 90's.

I'd love to come to your graduation

37 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 12:25:24am

re: #36 HoosierHoops

Give me a second on that, that just seems a bit weird, seeing as I haven't met you yet.

38 Digital Display  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 12:29:33am

re: #37 ProGunLiberal

Give me a second on that, that just seems a bit weird, seeing as I haven't met you yet.

Not to worry... I was just going to watch ( 4 blocks away)..Not meet you..This is a time for family and friends..
Congrads!

39 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:09:02am

re: #10 Gus

It's odd you know. That a country that was founded by immigrants. Many of who escaped religious or ethnic persecution. That required the invasion of a land which was already populated with a culture of people. Many of whom were killed in the wars against the Indians. A nation of different languages, religions, ethnicities and races. A nation that brought slaves from Africa who literally built most our infrastructure along with the Chinese in the West. That that same nation is now populated with people demanding that we retain an "American identity" that never really existed and fear the others that now come to our shores.

There's been a bloc of conservatives demanding retention of an "identity" for the entire time of European occupation of this continent. Just read history and you get the Hudson Valley Dutch complaining about the immigrant Germans and Irish. The same with the Know Nothings a hundred years later. And so on.

40 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:09:49am

re: #34 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Heh. I remember OhCrap for some reason taking amazing offense when I referenced that phenomenon.

It seems pretty uncontroversial to me. Expectations have an effect on performance.

41 freetoken  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:11:39am
42 researchok  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:16:25am

Morning, all

43 researchok  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:19:32am

Timeless.

44 freetoken  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:24:00am

One of my favorite pop tunes, especially since it's not written in boring 4/4 like nearly all pop tunes:

45 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:25:40am

Morning All. Another graveyard shift day in a warm (and not yet sunny) Philadelphia.

Noisy about the past few afternoons as the city is jackhammering out and replacing sections of sidewalk in the area. Replacing corners with new access ramps that include pads of non-skid material. And a few of these sections have needed replacement since I moved out here five years ago.

Back to work with first cup of coffee to drink.

46 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:25:46am

re: #40 Obdicut

Many people tend to react strongly to anything that has "IQ" and "race" within 10 meters of each other. Understandable, given history, but logically fallacious. Conclusions should not be predetermined, but rather should follow from evidence (the cautionary example is the right vis a vis AGW).

47 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:29:09am

re: #46 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Many people tend to react strongly to anything that has "IQ" and "race" within 10 meters of each other. Understandable, given history, but logically fallacious. Conclusions should not be predetermined, but rather should follow from evidence (the cautionary example is the right vis a vis AGW).

Written IQ tests can give us insight into certain aspects of intelligence, and even how they relate to race.

But to come to the conclusion that "relative scores on written IQ test = relative intelligence" requires a major leap of faith based on a predermined conclusion that certain groups are "more intelligent" than other groups and that this is genetically determined.

48 Lidane  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:31:52am

LGF Irrelevance Watch -- ABL picked up the knockout page by Gus about John O'Sullivan:

The National Review Racist Firesale, John O’Sullivan Edition

49 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:32:26am

re: #47 Expand Your Ground

Again, it all depends on evidence. At present there seems to be no evidence that the intelligence differential is genetically determined, and it's not a necessary state of affairs, but rather a contingent one (i.e. it is in principle possible for intelligence differential to be genetic, it just doesn't seem to be the case).

50 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:36:25am

re: #49 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Again, it all depends on evidence. At present there seems to be no evidence that the intelligence differential is genetically determined, and it's not a necessary state of affairs, but rather a contingent one (i.e. it is in principle possible for intelligence differential to be genetic, it just doesn't seem to be the case).

Evidence. Some kinds of evidence are easy to gather, like test scores. The analogy from sports is that it is easy to measure how far and fast someone can run, jump or throw a javelin/discus/shotput, how do you assess an individual's skill at a team sport?

51 Lidane  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:39:08am
52 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:44:10am

re: #49 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

In some ways it's trivially obvious that there's a genetic component to intelligence; I am more intelligent than a rabbit, and part of that is because i have genes that code a different brain than that of the rabbit.

But that's just trivially true. It doesn't get into the main issue that confounds racists whenever they start talking about genes determining anything; the difference between genotype and phenotype.

Something cited by racists or those who aren't racist but simply don't understand genetics is the lung capacity of the people indigenous to the Andes mountains. However, the actual science of it shows that it is a difficult, fascinating, and frustrating task to actually determine what portion of the Andes mountainer's lung capacity is because of the expression of alleles that contribute to lung capacity, and what proportion is adaptation from birth, the body responding to the environment while developing (and potentially even effects in utero).

[Link: jeb.biologists.org...]

The paper also makes the very good point that people often think of genetic differences as being present or absent, when usually the case would be that they are simply being expressed at different frequencies; even if it were eventually shown that the Andes mountainer's lung capacity was highly related to the expression of certain alleles, it is very unlikely that those alleles would be spontaneous mutations in the population, and more likely that they'd be pre-existing in all human populations at very low rates, then selected for in the environment.

53 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:53:13am

re: #52 Obdicut

One gripe though: one must distinguish between a genetic component of intelligence (which is an established fact; individuals are not genetic blank slates) and the genetic origin of the group differences (which is not proven).

54 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:54:49am

re: #52 Obdicut

And cultural aspects: if you are raised in a cultural environment that places a lot of value on doing well on written test scores, then you learn to do well on them. If you are raised in a culture where you see tests as irrelevant or without benefit to you do not make the effort to test out well.

It was interesting to read that among inner-city children, black males were the ones most likely not to appear to take the test at all. Which totally skewers any results one might try to derive from them. Do they get a zero for missing the test or a 100 for being intelligent enough to know that it does not matter?

55 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:56:19am

re: #53 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Oh, absolutely. Even defining what the hell you mean by a 'group' in genetic terms is incredibly fraught. There's no genetic definition of 'race' that isn't massively problematic; if you define it as having certain genes or alleles, then lots of people you'd assume would be of that 'race' wouldn't be, if they happen to be missing those. If you define it as just the incidence and probability of having those alleles or genes in a group, then it really doesn't apply to individuals at all.

56 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 2:00:28am

re: #54 Expand Your Ground

And even on very high-level tests, there's weird bias and mistakes. I helped my wife study for the MCAT, and many of the reading comprehension sections were fascinating in their weirdness. They very often included one of two types:

1. Articles that were very badly written or making a terrible logical argument.

2. Articles that were quite well written, making good arguments, but had large portions of them excised.

The testing on these articles was NOT to recognize or examine the flaws, but instead simply to be able to recognize the author's main arguments, even in the midst of either their terrible logic or missing parts.

My wife got very frustrated by this, since what she 'wanted' to talk about in terms of the articles was what they were getting wrong, but the test required her to hold back and only analyze the argument, to put herself in the author's shoes. It is, indeed, a necessary skill to be able to do that, and I understand why they test for it, but the test does not at all separate those who read logically faulty arguments and are convinced by them from those who read the arguments and can tear them apart.

57 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 2:04:50am

re: #55 Obdicut

To put this another way: Cystic fibrosis is a lot more common in Ashkenazi Jews than it is in African-Americans. But that says absolutely nothing about an Ashkenazi Jew who doesn't have that gene. It's an observably true fact about a 'race' that says nothing about any individual in that race, except to make a guess at the probability that something affects them.

And if an Ashekenazi Jew has cystic fibrosis, in many ways he is more 'similar', phenotypically, to all others with cystic fibrosis, whatever their 'race' than he is to those of his own 'race'. It's a highly defining characteristic.

And with that, I now I have to go figure out what the latest hash my producer has made of my scripts is.

58 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 2:06:03am

re: #57 Obdicut

And with that, I now I have to go figure out what the latest hash my producer has made of my scripts is.

Talk about intelligence! //

59 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 2:21:58am

Palma de Majorca remains one of my favorite med ports. So beautiful.

Also, Good Morning Honcos.

60 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 2:25:11am

re: #59 Darth Vader Gargoyle

I always wake up with a morning honco.

/couldn't resist.

61 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 2:32:26am

re: #60 Obdicut

I always wake up with a morning honco.

/couldn't resist.

If it lasts more than 4 hours, consult a physician!
//

62 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 2:32:44am

re: #60 Obdicut

I always wake up with a morning honco.

/couldn't resist.

Image: demotivational-poster-26136.jpg

63 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 3:28:50am
64 freetoken  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 3:43:06am

Women in red a real turn off

Popular perception equates red with women's sexual allure, but the colour may actually act as a turn-off for most males, says a study. Sarah E. Johns, evolutionary anthropologist at the University of Kent, who led the study, said: "Our results really challenge the commonly held view that the colour red promotes sexual attractiveness by acting as a proxy for female genital colour."

"However, we found that men showed a strong aversion to redder female genitals. Our study shows that the myth of red as a proxy for female genital colour should be abandoned," said Johns, the journal Public Library of Science ONE reports.

"This view must be replaced by careful examination of precisely what the colour red, in clothing, makeup, and other contexts, is actually signalling to men. What it isn't signalling is female sexual arousal," added Johns, according to a Kent statement.

A team from Kent's School of Anthropology and Conservation including Lucy A. Hargrave and Nicholas E. Newton-Fisher, generated 16 images of female genitalia by manipulating four photographs of the human vulva to produce four subtle, yet different, colour conditions ranging from pale pink to red.

These images were then presented to 40 heterosexual males with varying levels of sexual experiences who were asked to rate the sexual attractiveness of each image.

The results showed that the men rated the reddest shade significantly less attractive than the three pink shades, among which there were no significant differences in rated attractiveness.

SCIENCE!!

65 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 3:46:21am

re: #64 freetoken

Women in red a real turn off

SCIENCE!!

anecdotal evidence

blonde with bright red lipstick: no big deal
brunette with bright red lipstick: I'm in love

66 freetoken  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 3:50:05am

From the actual paper:

[...]

We generated 16 images of female genitalia by manipulating four individual photographs of the human female vulva, such that we had four colour conditions for four different base images. We used colours within the normal range expected for human genitalia, a gradation of increasing redness starting from a pale pink. This was done to prevent any aversion in our participants (described below) to ‘unnatural’ images [26]: for instance, some NHP studies of genital colour preference have contrasted red with anatomically atypical block colours (e.g. green, purple, orange) [25].

Explicit images of anatomically normal, un-retouched, non-pornographic, similarly-orientated female genitals were surprisingly difficult to obtain, and the number of images used in the experiment reflects this difficulty. We obtained the photographs from a female genital image comparison website (www.vulvavelvet.org), the purpose of which is to inform and educate the public about natural variation in human female genitalia, and to make women feel comfortable with their bodies. Women, over the age of 18, anonymously donate images of their genitals to this website, placing them in the public domain. [...]

Don't ya just love anthropology?

67 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 3:53:05am

re: #64 freetoken

re: #65 Expand Your Ground

68 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 3:55:08am

re: #67 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Oops, reload. I set the start marker wrong.

69 RogueOne  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 3:55:38am

Morning Peeps.

70 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 3:56:54am

re: #69 RogueOne

Morning Peeps.

Хэллоу.

71 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 3:57:19am

I could be wrong, but I think it's morning again.

ugh

72 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:01:27am

re: #71 ggt

I could be wrong, but I think it's morning again.

ugh

I'm having a hard time telling right now in any case. Goofed up sleep cycles from working this shift including afternoon naps. So the sun comes up mid-work shift, and goes down right after I wake up from a nap.

Time for another cup of coffee.

73 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:03:59am

re: #22 Expand Your Ground

Wild, wild West:

"There is a very thin line between communism, progressivism, Marxism, Socialism ... it's about nationalizing production, it's about creating and expanding the welfare state. It's about this idea of social and economic justice," said the retired military officer.

In other words "I don't really understand any of them, but I know they are bad because they are different from my ideas".

Allen West?

74 RogueOne  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:04:16am

re: #63 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Once again: forensics is not a magic word.

I read the previous story:
Convicted defendants left uninformed of forensic flaws found by Justice Dept.
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

The whole article is maddening but it boils down to...

As a result, hundreds of defendants nationwide remain in prison or on parole for crimes that might merit exoneration, a retrial or a retesting of evidence using DNA because FBI hair and fiber experts may have misidentified them as suspects.

In one Texas case, Benjamin Herbert Boyle was executed in 1997, more than a year after the Justice Department began its review. Boyle would not have been eligible for the death penalty without the FBI’s flawed work, according to a prosecutor’s memo.

The case of a Maryland man serving a life sentence for a 1981 double killing is another in which federal and local law enforcement officials knew of forensic problems but never told the defendant. Attorneys for the man, John Norman Huffington, say they learned of potentially exculpatory Justice Department findings from The Washington Post. They are seeking a new trial.

Justice Department officials said that they met their legal and constitutional obligations when they learned of specific errors, that they alerted prosecutors and were not required to inform defendants directly.

75 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:05:42am

re: #74 RogueOne

There you go. That's what allowing death penalty brings.

76 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:05:48am

re: #72 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

I'm having a hard time telling right now in any case. Goofed up sleep cycles from working this shift including afternoon naps. So the sun comes up mid-work shift, and goes down right after I wake up from a nap.

Time for another cup of coffee.

I have messed-up sleep cycles from hormones. Add to that my recent travels to the Pacific and I might as well go back to being an infant.

77 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:06:12am

re: #73 ggt

Allen West?

Yes, he is just doubling down on his ridiculous "dozens of Democrats are card-carrying Communist" statement.

But Rick Santorum and John Kyl have already set the standard: what they "feel in their hearts" is true.

78 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:07:46am

I am beginning to think it's going to take another 10+ years for the majority of the population to lose their "red scare.". The younger generation has no memory.

79 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:08:32am

word for the day

gloze

80 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:13:34am

re: #78 ggt

I am beginning to think it's going to take another 10+ years for the majority of the population to lose their "red scare.". The younger generation has no memory.

They also have no clue. As does Alan West.

81 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:15:38am
82 Decatur Deb  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:15:38am

re: #55 Obdicut

Oh, absolutely. Even defining what the hell you mean by a 'group' in genetic terms is incredibly fraught. There's no genetic definition of 'race' that isn't massively problematic; if you define it as having certain genes or alleles, then lots of people you'd assume would be of that 'race' wouldn't be, if they happen to be missing those. If you define it as just the incidence and probability of having those alleles or genes in a group, then it really doesn't apply to individuals at all.

The working definition of race in America is: "When we picked cotton by hand, were your folks more likely in the field or on the porch?" There are very few people in America all of whose genes arrived below-decks of a slave ship. Without a statistically sane way to define and separate black, white, native test subject genetics the research is bogus. That galleon has sailed.

83 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:16:31am

re: #78 ggt

I am beginning to think it's going to take another 10+ years for the majority of the population to lose their "red scare.". The younger generation has no memory.

Nope. The Chinese will continue to be played up as the next big threat, so the "commie" label is going to hang around for a while still.

84 Decatur Deb  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:17:44am

re: #66 freetoken

From the actual paper:

Don't ya just love anthropology?

Damn. And I spent all my time on the Medicine Dances.

85 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:21:53am

I think I ask this about once a year and I don't know why I can't remember.

What is the word for the lava flow from a volcano after it picks-up debris and because of inertia keeps moving/destroying everything in it's path?

It's a hawaiian word, I believe.

86 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:23:53am

re: #85 ggt

ʻAʻā

ʻAʻā (also spelled aa, aʻa, ʻaʻa, and a-aa; /ˈɑː.ɑː/ or /ˈɑːʔɑː/, from Hawaiian [ʔəˈʔaː][6] meaning "stony rough lava", but also to "burn" or "blaze") is one of three basic types of flow lava. ʻAʻā is basaltic lava characterized by a rough or rubbly surface composed of broken lava blocks called clinker. The Hawaiian word was introduced as a technical term in geology by Clarence Dutton.[7]

87 Decatur Deb  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:23:55am

re: #85 ggt

I think I ask this about once a year and I don't know why I can't remember.

What is the word for the lava flow from a volcano after it picks-up debris and because of inertia keeps moving/destroying everything in it's path?

It's a hawaiian word, I believe.

Might be thinking of 'pyroclastic flow", but that includes a lot of hot mud and gases. It's what got Pompeii.

88 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:24:43am

re: #87 Decatur Deb

'pyroclastic flow"

Not very Hawaiian-sounding ;)

89 Decatur Deb  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:25:30am

re: #88 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Not very Hawaiian-sounding ;)

It's from the Greek part of Hawaii.

90 Shropshire_Slasher  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:27:51am

re: #6 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
So many words!

91 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:28:33am

re: #90 Tommy's cone of shame

So many words!

Also, nobody told me there would be math!

92 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:28:49am

Or marginally related (but it's a lava flow), but if you're ever up in Central Oregon this is actually a nice place to go hiking on a lava flow.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Hint: Don't go in the afternoon! ;)

93 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:29:02am

actually, I'm trying to find the video I saw on one of the Cable channels years ago --when Discovery actually was worth watching. It showed a highway overpass being just taken away by the flow from Mount St. Helens. There was everything in the flow--houses, cars, street lights . . . .

This guy was standing on the side of the overpass videoing it.

Freaky, majorly freaky.

94 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:29:29am

re: #86 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

no, but thanks.

95 RogueOne  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:29:53am

re: #75 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

There you go. That's what allowing death penalty brings.

They should have put off his execution until after the study was completed. OTOH,
I can't seem to find the prosecutors memo they mention but I've read his appeal and Boyle was guilty. 1. There was more evidence than just the hair the FBI tested. 2. There were witnesses who saw her take off with him and gave a description of his truck 3. Even Boyle's family wanted him to hang and testified against him. 4. He was a member of the Aryan Brotherhood and a violent rapist with previous convictions.

96 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:30:06am

I used to keep a notebook of words --then I misplaced it and started another.

No clue where either are now.

97 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:30:42am

re: #93 ggt

actually, I'm trying to find the video I saw on one of the Cable channels years ago --when Discovery actually was worth watching. It showed a highway overpass being just taken away by the flow from Mount St. Helens. There was everything in the flow--houses, cars, street lights . . .

This guy was standing on the side of the overpass videoing it.

Freaky, majorly freaky.

That sounds more like a volcanic ash based mud flow in a creek or river. A pyroclastic flow is a lot faster, broader, and something that is probably too dangerous to just stand off to the side to film.

98 Decatur Deb  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:31:59am

re: #93 ggt

actually, I'm trying to find the video I saw on one of the Cable channels years ago --when Discovery actually was worth watching. It showed a highway overpass being just taken away by the flow from Mount St. Helens. There was everything in the flow--houses, cars, street lights . . .

This guy was standing on the side of the overpass videoing it.

Freaky, majorly freaky.

Yeah--that's the 'pyroclastic' part. The Hawaiian (I think) describes slow-moving/relentless movement. The stuff you describe is very high-speed.

99 Shropshire_Slasher  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:32:10am

re: #45 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Those pads are audible sidewalks for the blind.

100 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:32:57am

re: #93 ggt

actually, I'm trying to find the video I saw on one of the Cable channels years ago --when Discovery actually was worth watching. It showed a highway overpass being just taken away by the flow from Mount St. Helens. There was everything in the flow--houses, cars, street lights . . .

This guy was standing on the side of the overpass videoing it.

Freaky, majorly freaky.

That was a Lahar. St. Helens was surrounded by large glaciers when it blew, they liquified and mixed with the ash and dirt.

101 Decatur Deb  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:33:18am

re: #100 goddamnedfrank

That was a Lahar. St. Helens was surrounded by large glaciers when it blew, they liquified and mixed with the ash and dirt.

Winner.

102 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:33:49am

re: #95 RogueOne

Oh, doesn't matter in the least. So next time someone will be convicted just on "forensics".

In any case, witnesses can also be flawed. Maybe he was guilty, but if not , there is nothing to turn things back. Which is a simple argument for why there should be no DP.

103 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:34:42am

re: #100 goddamnedfrank

That was a Lahar. St. Helens was surrounded by large glaciers when it blew, they liquified and mixed with the ash and dirt.

This might be it.

104 RogueOne  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:39:48am

re: #102 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

The victim (tortured, raped and murdered) told people to write down the truck ID just in case anything happened. I'm not 100% opposed to the DP. Boyle is one of those people that, IMO, couldn't have been killed too quickly. As a matter-of-fact, his crime is one of those that I think warrants being killed twice....

The school teacher killed a couple weeks ago did the same thing, called a friend and told him where she was going just "in case anything happens". If you feel the necessity to do that before going with someone... I would hope people would trust their judgement a little more.

105 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:40:30am

re: #104 RogueOne

Special pleading is futile. Leave the door open for the death penalty, and it will inevitably be used in cases where the evidence isn't as strong.

This is really obvious logic.

106 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:43:21am

re: #104 RogueOne

Sorry, I don't understand how someone can be pro-DP when judicial mistakes demonstrably happen. Unless one consciously decides that it's better for a few innocents to fry than for a few criminals escape death (and get life sentence). I would think basic justice demands prohibition of such an unnecessary procedure.

107 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:48:28am

Lahar kinda sounds hawaiian --no?

108 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:49:15am

re: #107 ggt

Lahar kinda sounds hawaiian --no?

or Kenyan...

109 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:50:08am

re: #107 ggt

Lahar kinda sounds hawaiian --no?

Javanese.
;)

110 Decatur Deb  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:50:33am

re: #107 ggt

Lahar kinda sounds hawaiian --no?

Your link says Indonesian. Warm, wet and surrounded by water, anyways.

111 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:51:17am

re: #110 Decatur Deb

Your link says Indonesian. Warm, wet and surrounded by water, anyways.

I know :)

112 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:51:34am

re: #109 Varek Raith

Javanese.
;)

coffee?

113 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:51:55am

re: #112 ggt

coffee?

Yes please.

114 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:52:29am

That was a trap.

115 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:52:51am

re: #113 Varek Raith

Yes please.

just for you!

116 RogueOne  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:53:03am

re: #106 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Sorry, I don't understand how someone can be pro-DP when judicial mistakes demonstrably happen. Unless one consciously decides that it's better for a few innocents to fry than for a few criminals escape death (and get life sentence). I would think basic justice demands prohibition of such an unnecessary procedure.

Mistakes can, have, and will be made. Does that mean we shouldn't incarcerate anyone and deprive them of their "life, liberty, and property"? I think that standard is too high and that some people commit crimes heinous enough (torture, rape, and murder) to warrant a needle. If we are sure the process is fair, and we know the defendant is absolutely guilty, I have zero problem removing those people from the planet.

The answer to "mistakes can be made" is to minimize and correct the mistakes, not withhold punishment. The KSM trial is about to start, should the DP be removed for people like him?

117 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:53:17am

re: #115 ggt

just for you!

Omnomnom

118 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:55:05am

The death penalty is the easy way out.
As they are dead. Worm food. Future zombies. No burning in mythical places for all eternity. Dead.
I'd much rather they spend the rest of their lives in jail.

119 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:55:06am

re: #116 RogueOne

Mistakes can, have, and will be made. Does that mean we shouldn't incarcerate anyone and deprive them of their "life, liberty, and property"? I think that standard is too high and that some people commit crimes heinous enough (torture, rape, and murder) to warrant a needle. If we are sure the process is fair, and we know the defendant is absolutely guilty, I have zero problem removing those people from the planet.

The answer to "mistakes can be made" is to minimize and correct the mistakes, not withhold punishment. The KSM trial is about to start, should the DP be removed for people like him?

I agree, there are monsters --Brevik being the one most on my mind. I don't understand why Society should be expected to use resources to keep him alive.

With that said. Way too much money is spent on DP cases in appeal, etc. We might be better off spending that money on EDUCATION AND CONTRACEPTION. add in Mental Health Treatment.

I am am broken record on this.

120 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:56:01am

re: #116 RogueOne

Mistakes can, have, and will be made. Does that mean we shouldn't incarcerate anyone and deprive them of their "life, liberty, and property"?

No analogy.

I think that standard is too high and that some people commit crimes heinous enough (torture, rape, and murder) to warrant a needle.

Oh, absolutely. They deserve it. They just should never get it for one simple reason explained above.

If we are sure the process is fair, and we know the defendant is absolutely guilty, I have zero problem removing those people from the planet.

Well, as long as you agree that those who are not absolutely guilty walk free. Otherwise you're introducing an incoherent notion of "not absolutely guilty but will stay in prison".

The answer to "mistakes can be made" is to minimize and correct the mistakes, not withhold punishment. The KSM trial is about to start, should the DP be removed for people like him?

Of course.

121 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:56:05am

re: #109 Varek Raith

Javanese.
;)

I'd be curious if it translates as a local Javanese of "Oh Shit!". But probably just something like "mud of urban renewal".

122 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:57:30am

re: #121 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

I'd be curious if it translates as a local Javanese of "Oh Shit!". But probably just something like "mud of urban renewal".

berlahar
[kata dasar / root word: lahar] expel lava; spout
(kata umum - common word)

123 Decatur Deb  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:57:57am

re: #118 Varek Raith

The death penalty is the easy way out.
As they are dead. Worm food. Future zombies. No burning in mythical places for all eternity. Dead.
I'd much rather the spend the rest of their lives in jail.

'Zactly. Let the true villains rot. The erroneous life sentence has one outstanding virtue--reversibility.

124 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:58:21am

re: #123 Decatur Deb

'Zactly. Let the true villains rot. The erroneous life sentence has one outstanding virtue--reversibility.

As simple as that.

125 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:58:56am

re: #116 RogueOne

There's no coherent way of categorizing 'people like him', or setting a standard of evidence where we're 'really, really sure' of the guilt of someone, so that we could employ the death penalty.

Special pleading is never going to make it so. History shows us, over and over and over, that where there is the death penalty, it gets misapplied.

If we were all perfect beings, we could use the death penalty, but then again, we wouldn't have to.

126 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:58:57am

re: #123 Decatur Deb

'Zactly. Let the true villains rot. The erroneous life sentence has one outstanding virtue--reversibility.

For me it's a resources issue. As it is, it costs more to kill them to keep them for life in prison --because of legal BS and such. Last I heard anyway.

127 RogueOne  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:59:08am

re: #120 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Of course.

Basically that's what our difference boils down to, you don't believe the DP is ever warranted and I believe there are crimes that almost demand it.

I am not now, nor have I ever been, a pro-lifer....////

128 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:59:40am

Anyone seen FBV or Reine lately?

129 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:59:41am

re: #127 RogueOne

No, that's not the difference at all. it's not what the crimes demand, it's about our ability to apply the death penalty justly.

You really not getting that part of it?

130 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:59:48am

re: #127 RogueOne

Basically that's what our difference boils down to, you don't believe the DP is ever warranted and I believe there are crimes that almost demand it.

I am not now, nor have I ever been, a pro-lifer...///

I see no benefit to Society to keep Charlie Manson alive.

sorry, I just don't.

131 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:59:55am

Prison sentence = reversible, necessary.
Death sentence = irreversible, unnecessary.

132 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:00:25am

re: #128 Varek Raith

FBV poked his head in to say he's taking some 'me' time to improve himself as a person, a husband, a friend. Which is very cool of him to do.

Reine posted a page about her glass stuff a little while ago, and another one a little while ago.

133 RogueOne  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:00:39am

re: #123 Decatur Deb

'Zactly. Let the true villains rot. The erroneous life sentence has one outstanding virtue--reversibility.

I think some crimes are too heinous to allow someone to sit around all day breathing. If someone rapes/tortures and murders someone they've lost their right to fresh air.

134 RogueOne  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:00:55am

re: #128 Varek Raith

Anyone seen FBV or Reine lately?

FBV was around last week.

135 Decatur Deb  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:01:02am

re: #130 ggt

I see no benefit to Society to keep Charlie Manson alive.

sorry, I just don't.

He has more deterrent value, if you believe in it, than Gary Gilmore.

136 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:01:04am

re: #132 Obdicut

FBV poked his head in to say he's taking some 'me' time to improve himself as a person, a husband, a friend. Which is very cool of him to do.

Reine posted a page about her glass stuff a little while ago, and another one a little while ago.

Ah, ok.

Well, hi guy/gal!

137 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:01:08am

re: #127 RogueOne

Basically that's what our difference boils down to, you don't believe the DP is never warranted and I believe there are crimes that almost demand it.

I am not now, nor have I ever been, a pro-lifer...///

Actually, I explained in the comments that you snipped that my position is the opposite of what you state here. I don't know why you need to distort my position.

138 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:01:16am

re: #128 Varek Raith

Anyone seen FBV or Reine lately?

I think FBV dropped a few comments in a couple of days ago. Don't recall seeing any Reine comments in the past few weeks. But given travel and recent work schedule that's not surprising to me since I'm on during "slow time" a lot.

139 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:01:18am

re: #130 ggt

That's not the point. The benefit to society isn't keeping Manson alive, it's keeping someone else alive where the evidence really seemed strong that they'd committed the murder, but it turns out later someone else did.

Any case made on the back of an individual isn't applicable; the law has to apply to everyone.

140 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:01:24am

re: #131 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Prison sentence = reversible, necessary.
Death sentence = irreversible, unnecessary.

Couple that with a system that "rewards" DA's for getting the most DP convictions (remember the applause that Rick Perry garnered for his Texas "record") and you all but ensure that there will be a lot of erroneous convictions.

141 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:01:42am

re: #128 Varek Raith

Anyone seen FBV or Reine lately?

FBV yes, Reine ... earlier than FBV.

142 kirkspencer  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:02:18am

re: #116 RogueOne

Mistakes can, have, and will be made. Does that mean we shouldn't incarcerate anyone and deprive them of their "life, liberty, and property"? I think that standard is too high and that some people commit crimes heinous enough (torture, rape, and murder) to warrant a needle. If we are sure the process is fair, and we know the defendant is absolutely guilty, I have zero problem removing those people from the planet.

The answer to "mistakes can be made" is to minimize and correct the mistakes, not withhold punishment. The KSM trial is about to start, should the DP be removed for people like him?

Well, "mistakes can be made" means to me that when discovered attempts at correction should be made as when the mistakes are discovered.

To the best of my knowledge, wrongful death is not correctable.

143 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:02:19am

re: #133 RogueOne

I think some crimes are too heinous to allow someone to sit around all day breathing. If someone rapes/tortures and murders someone they've lost their right to fresh air.

Not at the expense of possible innocents being executed. It's not rocket surgery.

144 RogueOne  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:02:26am

re: #129 Obdicut

No, that's not the difference at all. it's not what the crimes demand, it's about our ability to apply the death penalty justly.

You really not getting that part of it?

I am getting it. I think it can be applied correctly. (I think it was applied correctly in the Boyle case.) Not every DP case is questionable.

145 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:02:31am

re: #133 RogueOne

I think some crimes are too heinous to allow someone to sit around all day breathing. If someone rapes/tortures and murders someone they've lost their right to fresh air.

Yeah, but the cost is the issue.

We know without a doubt Brevik, Manson, and others are guilty. But it will cost more to kill them to keep them alive.

Perhaps if Death Penalty cases were moved to the Federal Level. I wouldn't mind if all Murder became a Federal Crime. The States seem to have too many differences in carrying out justice.

Add to that Child Rape --but the Supreme Court rather ruined it a while back.

146 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:02:52am

re: #143 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Not at the expense of possible innocents being executed. It's not rocket surgery.

Don't give Varek any ideas!

147 Decatur Deb  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:03:05am

re: #133 RogueOne

I think some crimes are too heinous to allow someone to sit around all day breathing. If someone rapes/tortures and murders someone they've lost their right to fresh air.

I take anti-DP as a default. There are executions I don't weep over.

148 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:03:33am

re: #146 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Don't give Varek any ideas!

Rocket propelled scalpels...
...
..
.
BRILLIANT!

149 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:03:39am

re: #144 RogueOne

I am getting it. I think it can be applied correctly. (I think it was applied correctly in the Boyle case.) Not every DP case is questionable.

Dude, what the fuck? Once again, I'm left wondering if your'e being serious or just fucking up on purpose.

It's not about whether it can be applied correctly in individual cases. It's whether it can be applied correctly as a policy. And history clearly, clearly shows that it can't.

150 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:04:18am

re: #144 RogueOne

I am getting it. I think it can be applied correctly. (I think it was applied correctly in the Boyle case.) Not every DP case is questionable.

Do you agree that as long as the DP case is questionable, the person should walk free? Remember, its either guilty or not guilty.

151 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:04:44am

re: #147 Decatur Deb

I take anti-DP as a default. There are executions I don't weep over.

Exactly. If one vicious savage asshole neo-Nazi murderer kills another vicious neo-Nazi murderer to get his Hitler memorabilia collection, I'm really not sorry that the guy died. I still want the murderer prosecuted.

The fitness of the person for death has nothing to do with the ability of society to justly apply that death penalty.

152 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:05:01am

re: #150 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Do you agree that as long as the DP case is questionable, the person should walk free? Remember, its either guilty or not guilty.

What happened to life without parole?

153 RogueOne  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:05:01am

re: #145 ggt

Yeah, but the cost is the issue.
...

That's one argument I don't buy. I understand the morality argument against the DP but, IMO, the cost shouldn't be a factor.

154 kirkspencer  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:05:18am

Note, please, that "beyond a reasonable doubt" is not "absolutely certain."

155 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:05:52am

re: #152 Expand Your Ground

What happened to life without parole?

If he did it, he deserves DP, right?

156 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:06:46am

re: #145 ggt

Yeah, but the cost is the issue.

As the military is discovering now that medical and surgical advances mean that more wounded GI's are surviving combat. It was cheaper for them just to pay off the families and be shut of them, now they have life-long medical consditions to pay for...

157 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:07:30am

re: #155 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

If he did it, he deserves DP, right?

I am coming in here against DP. And SYG.

158 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:08:42am

re: #153 RogueOne

That's one argument I don't buy. I understand the morality argument against the DP but, IMO, the cost shouldn't be a factor.

I need to base policy decisions on that which can be measured --just me.

Morality can't be measured, resources and the cost to society can be.

It makes no sense to choose DP over Life in Prison when both remove the person from Society --if DP costs many times more money than Life in Prison.

Society is safe from the person either way.

I really can't stand that we are (people of California?) are paying to feed Manson, but it is cheaper to do so than to kill him.

159 RogueOne  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:09:30am

re: #149 Obdicut

Dude, what the fuck? Once again, I'm left wondering if your'e being serious or just fucking up on purpose.

It's not about whether it can be applied correctly in individual cases. It's whether it can be applied correctly as a policy. And history clearly, clearly shows that it can't.

And, as you just said, it can be applied correctly. Seems to me we agree on 2 of the 3 issues. 1. It can be misapplied and mistakes can be made. 2. It can be applied correctly in individual cases. Where we disagree is in how we deal with the uncertainty.

160 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:09:41am

re: #156 Expand Your Ground

As the military is discovering now that medical and surgical advances mean that more wounded GI's are surviving combat. It was cheaper for them just to pay off the families and be shut of them, now they have life-long medical consditions to pay for...

different argument -- we are talking heinous crime.

161 kirkspencer  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:09:47am

For what it's worth, if I were to agree with the DP I'd not use "heinous" as the measure. There are some things for which heinous is in the eye of the beholder.

I lean more toward using it for repeat/serial offenders of the crimes of murder and rape, if at all.

162 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:11:18am

re: #157 Expand Your Ground

I understand that, but you asked a question.

There is no third position in the scheme that Rogue proposes. In any Heinous Atrocity case there is either absolute certainty (and the accused gets DP); or he walks free, because if there is doubt about his guilt - well, he should not be in prison if there is doubt, right?

163 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:11:21am

re: #161 kirkspencer

For what it's worth, if I were to agree with the DP I'd not use "heinous" as the measure. There are some things for which heinous is in the eye of the beholder.

I lean more toward using it for repeat/serial offenders of the crimes of murder and rape, if at all.

true, was just trying to distinguish the argument.

164 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:11:22am

re: #159 RogueOne

And, as you just said, it can be applied correctly

Nope. You're either just not paying any attention or deliberately distorting what I'm saying. Any individual application doesn't matter. We're discussing the policy.

. Seems to me we agree on 2 of the 3 issues. 1. It can be misapplied and mistakes can be made. 2. It can be applied correctly in individual cases. Where we disagree is in how we deal with the uncertainty.

Nope. I'm saying it will always inevitably result in the death of innocent people. Unless you're saying you're peachy with that.

165 RogueOne  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:11:34am

re: #161 kirkspencer

For what it's worth, if I were to agree with the DP I'd not use "heinous" as the measure. There are some things for which heinous is in the eye of the beholder.

I lean more toward using it for repeat/serial offenders of the crimes of murder and rape, if at all.

This. I can't think of a much more heinous crime than Rape/Torture/Murder.

166 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:13:00am

re: #165 RogueOne

This. I can't think of a much more heinous crime than Rape/Torture/Murder.

And one can be sentenced for rape/torture/murder mistakenly.

167 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:14:23am

There is the whole "deterrence" issue, and I guess there are people who are willing to accept the occasional false conviction (and execution) in order to retain the deterrent factor....

168 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:14:58am

The process can be fair, there may be witnesses + forensics, and in the end it can still be a mistake.

169 Decatur Deb  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:15:19am

re: #165 RogueOne

This. I can't think of a much more heinous crime than Rape/Torture/Murder.

Even that gets squirrely. Some crimes are so heinous that the very act calls sanity into question. Rule one is just to get them out of play.

170 CuriousLurker  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:15:28am

*opens door; yawns; starts to wave hi, but then sees...death penalty argument at 8:00am—rape, murder, torture, terrorists...mutters to self, "wayyy too flippin' early for this, I should know better"...rubs eyes...closes door & stumbles towards kitchen in search of coffee...*

171 RogueOne  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:16:11am

re: #166 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

And one can be sentenced for rape/torture/murder mistakenly.

and, in this case, he wasn't. I think a base standard of "no DP because mistakes can be made" is too simplistic. These decisions should be based on the individual cases.

172 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:16:15am

re: #168 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

And deliberate distortions of justice by police, prosecutors, judges, witness, or others.

173 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:16:33am

Is the purpose of our justice system to

1) keep society safe from bad people

or

2) punish bad people?

174 RogueOne  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:16:47am

and for the record I didn't hijack the thread and turn it into a DP argument...that was sergey's fault!//

175 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:16:57am

re: #171 RogueOne

So you're okay with innocent people being put to death by the state using the death penalty? Because it's inevitable that it will happen.

176 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:17:05am

re: #170 CuriousLurker

*opens door; yawns; starts to wave hi, but then sees...death penalty argument at 8:00am—rape, murder, torture, terrorists...mutters to self, "wayyy too flippin' early for this, I should know better"...rubs eyes...closes door & stumbles towards kitchen in search of coffee...*

rape, murder, it's just a shot away...

177 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:17:15am

re: #171 RogueOne

and, in this case, he wasn't. I think a base standard of "no DP because mistakes can be made" is too simplistic. These decisions should be based on the individual cases.

I think that is the gist of the issue.

IT is approached from different angles by people at all levels.

178 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:17:19am

re: #167 Expand Your Ground

There is the whole "deterrence" issue, and I guess there are people who are willing to accept the occasional false conviction (and execution) in order to retain the deterrent factor...

False convictions are inevitable, but they're unescapeable unless we abandon the whole system, and they're reversible (of course, one can't give back 'time', but there's nothing one can do about it; necessity overrides this consideration). There is nothing necessary about DP, even if one considers the deterrence factor, which is hardly proven.

179 RogueOne  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:17:27am

re: #173 ggt

Is the purpose of our justice system to

1) keep society safe from bad people

or

2) punish bad people?

both plus the 3rd option, "Rehabilitation".

180 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:18:31am

re: #179 RogueOne

both plus the 3rd option, "Rehabilitation".

2) with extreme prejudice. Preferably on the spot. Just ask Ted Nugent.

/

181 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:18:42am

re: #171 RogueOne

and, in this case, he wasn't. I think a base standard of "no DP because mistakes can be made" is too simplistic. These decisions should be based on the individual cases.

They cannot be made on individual cases as a matter of policy.

182 kirkspencer  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:19:10am

re: #165 RogueOne

This. I can't think of a much more heinous crime than Rape/Torture/Murder.

And you completely missed the point of my argument.

I do not like the DP. I do not want it applied to "heinous" crime.

I do not like the DP because sometimes it is wrong. If I err in imprisoning, I can eventually release. I cannot resurrect the dead.

I do not like "heinous" as it is an emotional measure. At one time it was heinous for a black man to have sex, even if consensual, with a white woman. In the eyes of some, two men having sex is heinous.

If and only if I had no choice about the death penalty, I would use it NOT for rape or murder, but for cases where the rapist or murderer is a recidivist. A very large proportion of murders in prison are situational murderers; they are highly unlikely to repeat the crime. Rapists are far more likely to re-offend, but again there are some who do not repeat the crime once punished and sent through rehabilitation.

In essence, I would reserve the death penalty for those who cause ultimate harm to our society and who further demonstrate a willingness to continue despite attempts to correct the behavior.

And even then, only if we could be absolutely certain, 100%, that there was no hanky panky with the evidence or the jury selection or judicial bias or any of the other things that have been discovered in wrongful conviction cases.

Which means, again, that I do not support the death penalty.

183 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:19:14am

re: #179 RogueOne

both plus the 3rd option, "Rehabilitation".

As I understand it, we aren't originally set-up for Rehabilitation.

The whole thing is a clusterfuck, IMHO. Every State has a different take on it and justice is not meted out evenly.

It is cheaper in the long-run to rehabilitate, but what about those that can't be rehabilitated?

EDUCATION, CONTRACEPTION AND MENTAL HEALTH TREATMENT

are my only answers.

184 Decatur Deb  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:19:24am

re: #173 ggt

Is the purpose of our justice system to

1) keep society safe from bad people

or

2) punish bad people?

I'm for 1 far more than 2. And I want to add 3: Protect my rights if anything should happen to my ex-SIL.

185 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:20:05am

re: #171 RogueOne

and, in this case, he wasn't. I think a base standard of "no DP because mistakes can be made" is too simplistic. These decisions should be based on the individual cases.

We have a system that all but rewards prosecutors for seeking and obtaining deapth penalty convictions. Unless we can rework the system to preclude that and ensure an almost superhuman form of justice, we will have false convictions.

186 RogueOne  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:20:49am

re: #180 Expand Your Ground

2) with extreme prejudice. Preferably on the spot. Just ask Ted Nugent.

/

Rehabilitation with extreme prejudice....that's funny. OTOH, when we toss 18 yr old kids into prison for selling weed.....that's basically the system we have.

187 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:20:52am

re: #170 CuriousLurker

*opens door; yawns; starts to wave hi, but then sees...death penalty argument at 8:00am—rape, murder, torture, terrorists...mutters to self, "wayyy too flippin' early for this, I should know better"...rubs eyes...closes door & stumbles towards kitchen in search of coffee...*

ooo... DP for theft of coffee before 9am in the morning?

188 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:21:10am

re: #175 Obdicut

So you're okay with innocent people being put to death by the state using the death penalty? Because it's inevitable that it will happen.

And it's inevitable that really bad people will not be convicted and innocent people will be rape/tortured and killed by them.

Where do you draw the line in matter of policy?

189 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:22:23am

re: #188 ggt

They will be killed by bad people, not by the state. It's not a matter of policy.

190 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:23:13am

re: #189 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

They will be killed by bad people, not by the state. It's not a matter of policy.

Thus, individuals must be able to defend themselves.

The State cannot protect them from bad people.

191 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:25:12am

I have a full day of driving people to the doctor and I have to get gas (and more coffee)

Have a great one all!

192 RogueOne  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:26:00am

re: #182 kirkspencer

And you completely missed the point of my argument.

I do not like the DP. I do not want it applied to "heinous" crime.

I do not like the DP because sometimes it is wrong. If I err in imprisoning, I can eventually release. I cannot resurrect the dead.

I do not like "heinous" as it is an emotional measure. At one time it was heinous for a black man to have sex, even if consensual, with a white woman. In the eyes of some, two men having sex is heinous.

If and only if I had no choice about the death penalty, I would use it NOT for rape or murder, but for cases where the rapist or murderer is a recidivist. A very large proportion of murders in prison are situational murderers; they are highly unlikely to repeat the crime. Rapists are far more likely to re-offend, but again there are some who do not repeat the crime once punished and sent through rehabilitation.

In essence, I would reserve the death penalty for those who cause ultimate harm to our society and who further demonstrate a willingness to continue despite attempts to correct the behavior.

And even then, only if we could be absolutely certain, 100%, that there was no hanky panky with the evidence or the jury selection or judicial bias or any of the other things that have been discovered in wrongful conviction cases.

Which means, again, that I do not support the death penalty.

I don't think I missed the point of your argument. Not only did I get it, I'm 90% in agreement. Where we disagree, and why I pointed out the "heinous" portion, is because I don't believe there is any doubt that raping/torturing and then killing someone is "heinous".

193 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:26:02am

What Rogue proposes is a perverted "justice" of double standards. Basically, if there's a video tape of murder, X should fry because there's an alleged "absolute certainty". If there isn't, but only witnesses, well, OK, just give him life. The problem being, X is either guilty or not in both cases, and there is no other standard but "beyond the reasonable doubt". There is no standard of "absolute certainty".

194 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:27:13am

re: #188 ggt

And it's inevitable that really bad people will not be convicted and innocent people will be rape/tortured and killed by them.

I'm sorry, what does that have to do with the death penalty?

195 RogueOne  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:30:02am

re: #193 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

You're almost dead on. (even though you phrased it with a tad too much snark//) I don't think expecting a higher standard for DP cases is a double standard. If we're going to take someones life we have an obligation to be absolutely certain and I think there are cases where that standard can be reached.

196 Decatur Deb  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:32:27am

re: #195 RogueOne

You're almost dead on. (even though you phrased it with a tad too much snark//) I don't think expecting a higher standard for DP cases is a double standard. If we're going to take someones life we have an obligation to be absolutely certain and I think there are cases where that standard can be reached.

Alabama will be comfortable with its level of certainty well before Connecticut will.

197 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:34:17am

re: #195 RogueOne

You're almost dead on. (even though you phrased it with a tad too much snark//) I don't think expecting a higher standard for DP cases is a double standard. If we're going to take someones life we have an obligation to be absolutely certain and I think there are cases where that standard can be reached.

The problem is that while I agree that it can be reached in some cases, there is simply no way to pinpoint which cases are those and to sort them out from all the other cases. For a very simple reason that there will be disagreements as to what constitues absolute certainty in each case. And once you leave this in the hands of the jury, it will be no different from normal DP cases: it will be abused and innocents will still die.

198 RogueOne  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:38:29am

She tried to stop fellow officers from kicking the crap out of a mental patient....she must be nuts..

Bogota Officer May Be Fired For Stopping Beatdown
[Link: www.wpix.com...]

Plenty of cop "beat downs" can be found online, but how often does the officer who stops others from handing out the beating get fired for it? That's exactly what's happening to Officer Regina Tasca in the Bogota Police Department.

Tasca's dashboard camera captured her as she attempted to stop two officers from beating an emotionally disturbed young man. Just days after the incident, she was told she was being suspended with pay. A year later, her trial is about to begin as the Bogota PD seeks to fire her.
.....
"The next thing I know he asks me to turn over my weapon and be sent for a fitness for duty exam," she said.

Bogota PD, after hearing Tasca's story, believes she is psychologically incompetent to be a police officer, and she is being sent for testing. The Ridgefield Park Police officers seen tackling and punching an emotionally disturbed man waiting for an ambulance are never questioned. never interviewed by an Internal Affairs Investigator, and are still working the streets today.

Bogota Police chose to suspend Tasca, an 11-year veteran with numerous commendations. There are photographs from the hospital documenting the bruises on the 22-year-old's head, back, arms and wrists.

Tasca says the real reason she's being called out on these charges is she crossed the "blue line" by refusing to support another officer even when he used excessive force. The other problem? The Bogota Police Department is very small--fewer than 20 officers. And there, she is a definitive minority.

199 kirkspencer  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:39:52am

re: #183 ggt

As I understand it, we aren't originally set-up for Rehabilitation.

The whole thing is a clusterfuck, IMHO. Every State has a different take on it and justice is not meted out evenly.

It is cheaper in the long-run to rehabilitate, but what about those that can't be rehabilitated?

EDUCATION, CONTRACEPTION AND MENTAL HEALTH TREATMENT

are my only answers.

Actually, yes we were "originally" set up for rehab.

Skipping a lot of the side roads, the reason they're called penitentiaries is because they were supposed to be places for those who committed crimes to repent their sins. The whole idea of long-term imprisonment was actually meant to be a humane change to standard practices of death, mutilation, and impoverishment.

The theory was that separating these people would protect society from their depravities while and until they'd learned to be productive and contributing citizens. At the same time the separation would allow introspection without temptation.

Unfortunately, there is also a large portion of society that wants vengeance. This portion frequently wants not just an eye for an eye, but a pound of flesh in interest. This gets disguised as a valid point: that often the criminal must be punished so as to recognize the crime is wrong.

I've mentioned this other times we've gotten into this same argument, I'll mention it again.

According to what we know of how the mind works at this time, our whole criminal justice system is designed to increase, not decrease, crime over all.

We should have a sharp, significant, but SHORT punishment. We should follow that with rehab in a controlled environment that includes training for alternatives, followed by rehab in an uncontrolled environment (parole equivalent). We should have two levels of an extended separation policy (long-term imprisonment) only for those we cannot rehab, demonstrated by their repeated recidivism. the extreme is, basically, LWOP in prison. The other is - think half-way house based out of a prison.

It won't happen, not here, but it's what we should be aiming for based on what we know at this time.

200 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:40:00am

re: #198 RogueOne

And you wish this rotten system to decide life and death.

201 RogueOne  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:41:01am

re: #200 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

And you wish this rotten system to decide life and death.

sometimes.

202 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:41:42am

re: #201 RogueOne

sometimes.

Then you will get innocent people dead "sometimes".

203 kirkspencer  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:42:48am

re: #192 RogueOne

I don't think I missed the point of your argument. Not only did I get it, I'm 90% in agreement. Where we disagree, and why I pointed out the "heinous" portion, is because I don't believe there is any doubt that raping/torturing and then killing someone is "heinous".

And the possibility of biased judges, cooked evidence from prosecutors, and/or terrible defense attorneys doesn't sway you? If convicted, he must be killed, so execute him?

Do you not read history? Do you not read the news? Or do you only see and hear what you wish to hear?

204 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:43:14am

re: #203 kirkspencer

He's refused to engage with this point all thread, I doubt he's suddenly going to change his mind and actually deal with it now.

205 Decatur Deb  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:44:48am

re: #200 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

And you wish this rotten system to decide life and death.

"The Equal Justice Initiative is an organization that provides legal representation to indigent defendants and prisoners who have been
denied fair and just treatment in the legal system.

The group contends that, from 2006 to 2010, state prosecutors in Dothan used peremptory strikes to exclude 82% of qualified black jurors in death-penalty cases. As a result, the jury in every death-penalty case in Houston County over this period has been all white or had only a single black juror despite the fact that the circuit is nearly 25% African-American. Equal Justice Initiative has also previously reported that Houston County has the highest per capita death sentencing rate in Alabama.

When asked about the lawsuit, Valeska reportedly brushed off the claims.

"I’m amazed that equal justice can issue press releases and send things out seeking pre-trial publicity before I have even been served,” said Valeska Wednesday, according to local news outlet WFSA 12. “I’m not surprised that they have done this.”

The suit was later dismissed.

[Link: www.bet.com...]

206 RogueOne  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:50:07am

re: #203 kirkspencer

And the possibility of biased judges, cooked evidence from prosecutors, and/or terrible defense attorneys doesn't sway you? If convicted, he must be killed, so execute him?

Do you not read history? Do you not read the news? Or do you only see and hear what you wish to hear?

Yes, it does "sway me" hence my argument for a standard tougher than "beyond a reasonable doubt" for DP cases. I think the argument that mistakes "might" be made so we should never use the DP is simplistic. You stated above that there are situations where it's both warranted and justified. Where are you thinking we disagree?

207 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:52:32am

re: #206 RogueOne

Yes, it does "sway me" hence my argument for a standard tougher than "beyond a reasonable doubt" for DP cases. I think the argument that mistakes "might" be made so we should never use the DP is simplistic. You stated above that there are situations where it's both warranted and justified. Where are you thinking we disagree?

You drag this red herring of a logic fail from comment to comment. It does not follow from "in specific cases we can be pretty certain" to "a standard can be formulated which will objectively sort out all such cases into one neat category".

208 Decatur Deb  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:52:50am

Got to walk the dog during this break in the rain. We'll discuss Indonesian cuisine as we go. BBL

209 RogueOne  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:56:38am

re: #207 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

You drag this red herring of a logic fail from comment to comment. It does not follow from "in specific cases we can be pretty certain" to "a standard can be formulated which will objectively sort out all such cases into one neat category".

The logic fail is the belief that if we can't be certain for everyone we can't be certain for anyone. The second logic fail is the belief in a need for a blanket policy instead of judging individuals on a case by case basis. That's why "we can't be 100% certain in every case therefore it shouldn't be used in any case" is a simplistic argument.

210 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:59:50am

re: #209 RogueOne

The logic fail is the belief that if we can't be certain for everyone we can't be certain for anyone.

And this is a strawman of course, so the logic fail is yours. This is not what is being argued.

The second logic fail is the belief in a need for a blanket policy instead of judging individuals on a case by case basis.

And once you introduce this arbitrariness, without any blanket standard, you cannot prevent abuse and mistaken sentencing.

That's why "we can't be 100% certain in every case therefore it shouldn't be used in any case" is a simplistic argument.

Non sequitur.

211 RogueOne  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 6:00:13am

Time for me to wrap it up and hit the road....Enjoy the day people!

We'll continue the DP argument (part 107) sometime soon.

212 kirkspencer  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 6:11:47am

re: #206 RogueOne

Yes, it does "sway me" hence my argument for a standard tougher than "beyond a reasonable doubt" for DP cases. I think the argument that mistakes "might" be made so we should never use the DP is simplistic. You stated above that there are situations where it's both warranted and justified. Where are you thinking we disagree?

We disagree that the argument mistakes "might" be made is simplistic.

Given sufficient cases, mistakes will be made. You cannot make a perfect system that involves people. There will be an error.

The issue, the question, then, is this. There will be an error that will result in a wrongful conviction. Therefore, is it better that all heinous offenders live forever separated from society so that we can rescue and recover that one mistake, or is it better to allow that one mistake to die so we can appropriately remove the guilty?

I repeat: I cannot resurrect the dead. I can remove a man (or woman) from prison. I choose to allow the possible.

213 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 6:12:23am

re: #199 kirkspencer

Actually, yes we were "originally" set up for rehab.

[snip long explanation on theory and shortcomings of current justice and prison system]

It won't happen, not here, but it's what we should be aiming for based on what we know at this time.

Until they figure out how to make the "right" system politically and corporatively profitable of course.
/

214 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 6:32:02am

re: #211 RogueOne

You haven't actually made an argument.

215 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 6:33:45am

re: #214 Obdicut

The argument would be his exact method of achieveing absolute certainty without arintrariness and blanket standard. Which he cannot propose since no one can.

216 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 6:36:27am

re: #215 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Well, yeah, I should have said he hasn't made an argument compatible with reality.

217 Lidane  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 6:37:13am

Romney Campaign: We Never Asked For Ted Nugent’s Endorsement

Contrary to reports from the time, the Romney campaign says it never sought the endorsement of conservative shock rocker Ted Nugent. On Tuesday, the Romney campagin distanced itself from Nugent’s incendiary speech at the NRA convention over the weekend. And on Wednesday, it went further, telling NBC News Romney “never solicited” the backing of Nugent, who has a long history of violent rhetoric toward Democrats.

218 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 6:39:27am

re: #217 Lidane

Too bad they celebrated Nugent joining 'Team Mitt', then.

219 Lidane  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 6:46:57am

re: #218 Obdicut

Exactly. They wanted his endorsement and actively sought it. They bragged about it. Then Ted opened his pie hole, and now Team Romney is scrambling to say they never wanted his endorsement? Come on.

220 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 6:49:47am

re: #219 Lidane

Exactly. They wanted his endorsement and actively sought it. They bragged about it. Then Ted opened his pie hole, and now Team Romney is scrambling to say they never wanted his endorsement? Come on.

Hurry & shake the etch-a-sketch! We have to change our mind!

221 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 6:50:59am

re: #219 Lidane

They may not have actively sought it. That may be Nugent saying shit and people believing him. But they did celebrate that they got it. Of course, it's another family member, so Mitt may simply blame the error on his son and then get sanctimonious about anyone then 'attacking' his son.

222 Decatur Deb  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 6:53:05am

re: #221 Obdicut

They may not have actively sought it. That may be Nugent saying shit and people believing him. But they did celebrate that they got it. Of course, it's another family member, so Mitt may simply blame the error on his son and then get sanctimonious about anyone then 'attacking' his son.

He has placed his sons in the fight. Getting him elected is how they serve their country. We should send a USO act.

223 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 6:53:29am

Did Mileva Marić assist Einstein in writing his 1905 path breaking papers? [PDF]

224 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:00:41am

re: #223 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Did Mileva Marić assist Einstein in writing his 1905 path breaking papers? [PDF]

That idea's been floated for a long time.

Who can say? She was a fully trained scientist, and he probably would have discussed his ideas with his wife.

225 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:05:10am

re: #224 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Who can say?

I think this paper is quite convincing in that there is no evidence that she did, and what evidence there is indicates that she didn't.

226 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:12:26am

re: #225 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

I think this paper is quite convincing in that there is no evidence that she did, and what evidence there is indicates that she didn't.

I dislike the fact that the article says that the divorce was "amiable." Oh no, it wasn't. He had to badger her into giving him a divorce so he could marry another woman.

However, her low scores would indicate that she simply wasn't, well, Einstein.

227 Stoatly  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:13:12am

Charles gets a mention in comments at Harry's Place


armaros

The Secret Service is onto him.

[Link: nation.foxnews.com...]

But not the Panthers or Lord Nazir Ahmed …. of course…

Wow…Gilad Atzmon, Ted Nugent, Charlie Manson…there aren’t many musicians who go on to become threatening, terrorist entities…”

No but they can become seriously deranged morons who think they can play politics.

Cat Stevens should be added to the list and Charles Johnson.

228 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:15:28am

I'm looking at Ioffe's article at [Link: ufn.ru...] and he indeed nowhere says that the papers were signed "Einstein-Marity". Sometimes "facts" are created out of whole cloth.

229 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:17:15am

re: #226 Mostly sane, most of the time.

I dislike the fact that the article says that the divorce was "amiable."

But it doesn't say that. It actually refutes this claim, which is quoted from another article by someone insisting on Maric's collaboration.

230 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:22:10am

re: #229 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

But it doesn't say that. It actually refutes this claim, which is quoted from another article by someone insisting on Maric's collaboration.

You are correct, that was a quote.

231 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:22:54am

Wow, conservative whacko on CNN thinks there's going to be a goddamn race war. And that the media is trying to get it to happen. To help with Obama's re-election.

[Link: www.mediaite.com...]

232 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:24:28am

re: #231 Obdicut

John Nolte's Newsbusters Neanderthal-looking pal.

233 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:26:09am

Of course, every time I see Noel Sheppard I remember about this pic: Image: redneck_twins.jpg

234 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:26:35am

Sorry for not reading more closely. I'm also scanning the news. I'm reading an article about how some moms can't afford to go to work because of day care costs.

I would have had to be making lots and lots of money to afford child care for five. Hollywood actress type money.

235 CuriousLurker  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:29:46am

I can't stick around this morning, but I just saw these on Twitter regarding the Arab Spring. I always appreciate reading things about the ME that aren't filled with pearl-clutching & hyperventilation, so I figure some of you will also:

A new book by Robin Wright:

The Islamists Are Coming is the first book to survey the rise of Islamist groups in the wake of the Arab Spring. Often lumped together, the more than 50 Islamist parties with millions of followers now constitute a whole new spectrum—separate from either militants or secular parties. They will shape the new order in the world’s most volatile region more than any other political bloc. Yet they have diverse goals and different constituencies. Sometimes they are even rivals.

[Link: www.wilsoncenter.org...]

An article about Egypt:

Paradoxes of “religious freedom” in Egypt

The place of religion in the political order is arguably the most contentious issue in post-Mubarak Egypt. With Islamist-oriented parties controlling over 70 percent of seats in the new People’s Assembly and the constitution-writing process about to begin, liberals and leftists are apprehensive about the implications for Egyptian law and society, including the rights of Egypt’s millions of Coptic Christians.

Mindful of these anxieties and pragmatic in its approach, the Muslim Brotherhood’s Freedom and Justice Party (FJP) has backed away from earlier calls for an “Islamic state.” Its 2011 election platform opts instead to promote the sharia as a “frame of reference. ” Working hard to assuage anxieties both at home and abroad, the Party explicitly calls for a “civil state” and repeatedly stresses the importance of equality of citizenship among Muslims and Christians:

Egyptians, Muslims and Christians, are integral parts of the fabric of the one homeland, with equal rights and duties, and without distinction or discrimination, and all together they must remove the injustice inflicted upon them.

[...]

As benign as this aspect of the FJP platform may sound, provisions guaranteeing “special rights” for different religious communities often carry illiberal implications when codified as state law. But the presumed alternative—banishing religious law through strict secularism—is also not an unqualified good. It imposes restrictions on “religious freedom” in another way, by disempowering citizens from entering into legal arrangements inspired by their own religious commitments. This paradox of religious freedom—the difficulty of reconciling the individual’s right from religion, while providing for the right to religious law is a paradox rooted in the modern state’s capacity and proclivity to codify and monopolize law. And, ironically, it is not modern state law but the Islamic legal tradition itself that may point the way out of this impasse.

Read more...

Gotta run for now. Have a good morning, everyone.

236 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:35:04am

re: #227 Stoatly

Charles gets a mention in comments at Harry's Place

armaros

...
Cat Stevens should be added to the list and Charles Johnson.

What the hell did Cat Stevens do? Just because he converted?

// Don't have to ask what Charles did.

237 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:36:59am

re: #236 RayFerd

He said some pretty vile stuff awhile back.

238 Ming  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:39:44am

Beautiful video!

239 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:40:14am

re: #236 RayFerd

What the hell did Cat Stevens do? Just because he converted?

// Don't have to ask what Charles did.

He wanted Salman Rushdie killed for insulting Islam.

240 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:43:17am

Good morning lizards from rainy central Virginia.

241 CuriousLurker  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:48:53am

re: #239 Killgore Trout

He wanted Salman Rushdie killed for insulting Islam.

I can't stick around to argue today, nor am I going to launch some big defense of a man I've never met, so take it or leave it as you will:

Cat Stevens Breaks His Silence

The Rushdie fatwa incident seems to be accepted as fact here, despite the fact that no one seems able to cite your endorsement of it. How did this rumor start?

I'm very sad that this seems to be the No. 1 question people want to discuss. I had nothing to do with the issue other than what the media created. I was innocently drawn into the whole controversy. So, after many years, I'm glad at least now that I have been given the opportunity to explain to the public and fans my side of the story in my own words. At a lecture, back in 1989, I was asked a question about blasphemy according to Islamic Law, I simply repeated the legal view according to my limited knowledge of the Scriptural texts, based directly on historical commentaries of the Qur'an. The next day the newspaper headlines read, "Cat Says, Kill Rushdie." I was abhorred, but what could I do? I was a new Muslim. If you ask a Bible student to quote the legal punishment of a person who commits blasphemy in the Bible, he would be dishonest if he didn't mention Leviticus 24:16.

Full interview at Rolling Stone...

242 dragonfire1981  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:50:34am

re: #241 CuriousLurker

Short version: Oooh baby baby, its a wild world...

243 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:51:00am

re: #241 CuriousLurker

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Two months later Yusuf Islam appeared on a British television program, BBC's Hypotheticals, an occasional broadcast featuring a panel of notable guests to explore a hypothetical situation with moral, ethical and/or political dilemmas. In the episode ("A Satanic Scenario"), Islam had an exchange about the issue with the moderator and Queens Counsel Geoffrey Robertson.[5][6] Islam would later clarify the exchanges as "stupid and offensive jokes" made "in bad taste", but "part of a well-known British national trait ... dry humour on my part."[1]

Robertson: You don't think that this man deserves to die?
Y. Islam: Who, Salman Rushdie?
Robertson: Yes.
Y. Islam: Yes, yes.
Robertson: And do you have a duty to be his executioner?
Y. Islam: Uh, no, not necessarily, unless we were in an Islamic state and I was ordered by a judge or by the authority to carry out such an act - perhaps, yes.
[Some minutes later, Robertson on the subject of a protest where an effigy of the author is to be burned]
Robertson: Would you be part of that protest, Yusuf Islam, would you go to a demonstration where you knew that an effigy was going to be burned?
Y. Islam: I would have hoped that it'd be the real thing

The New York Times also reports this statement from the program: [If Rushdie turned up at my doorstep looking for help] I might ring somebody who might do more damage to him than he would like. I'd try to phone the Ayatollah Khomeini and tell him exactly where this man is.[7]

244 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:53:36am

re: #241 CuriousLurker

He's given multiple contradictory explanations for why he said what he said, in my estimation. At times claiming he was joking, sometimes claiming he was just answering in the hypothetical.

245 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:53:58am

Also:

On February 21, 1989, Yusuf Islam addressed students at Kingston University in London about his conversion to Islam and was asked about the controversy in the Muslim world and the fatwa calling for Salman Rushdie's execution. He replied, "He must be killed. The Qur'an makes it clear - if someone defames the prophet, then he must die." [4]

It's bad enough to stick with fundie interpretation of the Koran - which makes him a fundie himself - he said "He must be killed".

246 darthstar  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:55:12am

Mornin' everyone...so what are we all wrong about today? (other than putting folk singers on a shit-list over a book 90% of us never read)

247 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:55:36am

re: #241 CuriousLurker

I understand he wants to walk it back but he wasn't just quoting scripture.

If he has really changed his mind I would think he'd be more up front about his previous statements. He still kind of avoids directly addressing what he really said and his interpretation of his religious obligations.

248 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:55:58am

re: #244 Obdicut

Hypothetical is about the answer to the question at conference, the joking is about the program quoted above. In any case it is proper to say that he called for the death of Rushdie. If some fundie Christian said without qualification "our Holy Bible says: stone the gays!" we would see it as incitement.

249 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:56:12am

re: #241 CuriousLurker

I can't stick around to argue today, nor am I going to launch some big defense of a man I've never met, so take it or leave it as you will:

Yeah. More of that turbo powered anti-Jihad blogger Cat Stevens derangement from the Bush years. That guy Armaros is another freak to Charles's freak magnet. I even find my name attached to ironically their never ending fatwa against us. Of course he wasn't even mentioned in the HUH piece. That was about Nugent. So that nut bring up Charles and Cat Stevens, and some other person, and they all for the bait. It's freaking dripping.

Meanwhile, down at the ranch:

250 lawhawk  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:57:21am

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. It's another gloriously warm and sunny day, and 1WTC continues heading skywards - it's close to being the tallest building in NYC, and they will soon be working on the spire that will make it the tallest skyscraper in North America.

That's not without ongoing problems elsewhere on the site. The Port Authority continues fighting over construction costs to build out the WTC Museum, so work's pretty much stopped on that project. Silverstein Properties isn't committing to building out 2 and 3 WTC until they get tenants lined up, so they're likely heading towards a stub construction (building podiums on which the towers can be built at a later date), but those costs are on Silverstein.

The Port Authority continues expending money on the transit hub that it simply can't afford to do so - at least not without siphoning funds from other more vital projects that can improve capacity. The transit hub would be a glorious bit of infrastructure from an architectural and design standpoint, but it's a facade. And since the Port Authority has been locked into that design, the costs have soared to $3.8 billion from $2.2, and that reflects nearly all the money being raised in the tolls/fare hikes enacted in the past 12 months. Those costs mean that other projects can't be done or are further delayed, even though they'd expand capacity, upgrade infrastructure, etc.

251 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:57:52am

re: #245 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Also:

It's bad enough to stick with fundie interpretation of the Koran - which makes him a fundie himself - he said "He must be killed".

It's just a joke!
//

252 CuriousLurker  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:59:25am

re: #243 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Like I said, take it or leave it. The man has been involved with charitable work with children for years & years, and AFAIK he's not a terrorist and has been removed form the U.S. "watch list", so I'm not going to defend or condemn him for something he said decades any more than I would condemn some of the people here for things they said in the past.

253 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:59:27am

re: #250 lawhawk

The Port Authority need a Federal Investigation for being a giant group of pricks.

Also, Good Morning Everyone!

254 iossarian  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:59:43am

Morning everyone.

I just can't get Cat Stevens out of my head today. For some reason, I'm also picturing Jane Fonda dancing to the groove.

255 CuriousLurker  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:00:32am

re: #247 Killgore Trout

I understand he wants to walk it back but he wasn't just quoting scripture.

[Embedded content] If he has really changed his mind I would think he'd be more up front about his previous statements. He still kind of avoids directly addressing what he really said and his interpretation of his religious obligations.

See my #252.

256 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:01:05am

re: #254 iossarian

Morning everyone.

I just can't get Cat Stevens out of my head today. For some reason, I'm also picturing Jane Fonda dancing to the groove.

Jimmy Carter!

257 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:01:26am

Earth First!

258 CuriousLurker  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:02:28am

re: #245 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Also:

It's bad enough to stick with fundie interpretation of the Koran - which makes him a fundie himself - he said "He must be killed".

Perhaps then. Muslim fundies don't do music. He's doing music now. Has been for a while.

259 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:03:39am

Behold the Fly-tilla Swastikas!

Foreign activist draws swastika on BG Airport wall

A swastika was found drawn on the wall of a holding facility for illegal aliens at Ben Gurion Airport, where several foreign pro-Palestinian activists who arrived in Israel as part of the "Welcome to Palestine" fly-in protest were held.

The activist responsible for the drawing was deported back to his country of origin on Monday. "This was the gift the 'peace activists' left Israel," a source at the Immigration Authority said.

The swastica was discovered by the detention facility employees after two foreign activists – citizens of France and Spain - were removed from the building.

The Immigration Authority said that a photograph of the defiled holding facility wall will be distributed to foreign media by the Foreign Ministry.

260 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:03:44am

re: #251 NJDhockeyfan

It's just a joke!
//

Another religious conservative using that excuse? Can't be!

261 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:07:07am

re: #234 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Sorry for not reading more closely. I'm also scanning the news. I'm reading an article about how some moms can't afford to go to work because of day care costs.

I would have had to be making lots and lots of money to afford child care for five. Hollywood actress type money.

Poor mothers who live in neighborhoods where the property values are being inflated by swarms of gentrifying yuppies will see cutbacks in childcare allotments

262 allegro  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:07:34am

Have y'all heard this news?

This is not snark. The House of Representatives has passed a climate change law that will require 50% less carbon production by 2050; phase out fossil fuel subsidies; make renewable power fully competitive with oil, gas and coal; cut dirty carbon emissions 30% by 2020 with international support; and ensure that 35% of the country's electricity will come from clean sources by 2024.

When this new law is approved by the Senate, it will be only the second such law in the world, putting the country in an elite global club, along with the United Kingdom.

How incredibly telling, and sad, that not a single person reading the two paragraphs above will believe a word of it -- because no such law could ever be passed by the United States Congress. But in fact, this law was passed on April 12 by the House of Representatives, of the United States -- of Mexico.

263 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:08:28am

re: #259 NJDhockeyfan

Behold the Fly-tilla Swastikas!

Foreign activist draws swastika on BG Airport wall

Classy.
/

264 lawhawk  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:08:52am

re: #257 Gus

We'll mine Mars later.

265 CuriousLurker  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:09:32am

re: #260 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Another religious conservative using that excuse? Can't be!

Yeah, good thing none of the ones here do that. //

BBL

266 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:11:59am

re: #264 lawhawk

We'll mine Mars later.

Igloo White!

267 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:14:03am

re: #249 Gus

Yeah. More of that turbo powered anti-Jihad blogger Cat Stevens derangement from the Bush years. That guy Armaros is another freak to Charles's freak magnet. I even find my name attached to ironically their never ending fatwa against us. Of course he wasn't even mentioned in the HUH piece. That was about Nugent. So that nut bring up Charles and Cat Stevens, and some other person, and they all for the bait. It's freaking dripping.

He used to be here.

armaros

This user is blocked.

Karma: 20
Registered since: Aug 12, 2006 at 2:23 pm

No. of comments posted: 204
No. of links posted: 0

268 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:16:02am

re: #267 wrenchwench

He used to be here.

Who didn't? /

269 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:16:56am

re: #262 allegro

Even Mexico is passing us now.

270 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:27:36am

re: #258 CuriousLurker

Perhaps then. Muslim fundies don't do music. He's doing music now. Has been for a while.

I love this montage.

271 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:32:57am

re: #252 CuriousLurker

Like I said, take it or leave it. The man has been involved with charitable work with children for years & years, and AFAIK he's not a terrorist and has been removed form the U.S. "watch list", so I'm not going to defend or condemn him for something he said decades any more than I would condemn some of the people here for things they said in the past.

They were pretty stupid comments. I remember hearing that people were all pissed about his conversion and he did support the call for SR head which was stupid (as much as any fundie of any stripe says).

272 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:33:59am

re: #270 wrenchwench

I love this montage.

[Embedded content]

I seem to remember him even taking the stage with Steven Colbert last year.

273 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:34:53am

re: #272 Expand Your Ground

Him and Stewart. According to Rushdie Stewart later called it a misstep in a phone conversation.

274 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:34:57am

re: #259 NJDhockeyfan

Behold the Fly-tilla Swastikas!

Foreign activist draws swastika on BG Airport wall

Lone wolf

275 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:35:05am

U.S. troops posed with body parts of Afghan bombers

An American soldier says he released the photos to the Los Angeles Times to draw attention to the safety risk of a breakdown in leadership and discipline. The Army has started a criminal investigation.

Somebody notify Dana Loesch.

276 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:36:31am

re: #275 Gus

U.S. troops posed with body parts of Afghan bombers

Somebody notify Dana Loesch.

Classy!

//

277 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:37:34am

re: #276 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Classy!

//

You know what they say about Nixon.

278 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:37:42am

re: #276 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Classy!

//

Lone wolf!

//

279 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:38:31am

re: #278 NJDhockeyfan

Lone wolf!

//

It's pretty standard.
//

280 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:40:36am

re: #277 Gus

You know what they say about Nixon.

Nice watches?

281 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:41:05am

re: #277 Gus

You know what they say about Nixon.

Come to think of it, I don't...

282 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:41:22am

re: #281 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Come to think of it, I don't...

He got caught.

283 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:43:03am

re: #273 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Him and Stewart. According to Rushdie Stewart later called it a misstep in a phone conversation.

How did he get on, then? I was a bit perplexed myself. But he was the perfect counterbalance to Ozzy Osbourne

284 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:46:33am

Major face-palm...

New low ‘blow’: Coke eyed at Secret Service ho-down

The Secret Service sure knows how to party.

Cocaine and several bottles of whiskey apparently fueled the elite agents’ boneheaded fling with about 20 hookers at a posh hotel in Cartagena, Colombia, a hotel staffer told The Post.

The employee responded to the trashed room with police and other Hotel El Caribe workers when one prostitute raised hell after a Secret Service member initially refused to pay her.

“When I went upstairs I walked into a messy room. The room was littered with two whiskey bottles — and a line of white powder, I believed to be cocaine, was on top of a round glass table in the room,” the staffer told The Post.

...

I have huge respect for the Secret Service but this is embarrassing.

285 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:48:20am

Image: la-0417-pin011.jpg

Aboard the international space station — An image released by NASA taken from the intenational space station and dated March 28 shows the lights of the city of Moscow about 240 miles below. The view is to the north-northwest from a position about 100 miles west-northwest of Volgograd. A solar array panel of the space station is in the foreground. The green crescent across the image is the Aurora Borealis, and the white spike of light to the right is the approaching daybreak.

286 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:48:37am

Begins here: [Link: framework.latimes.com...]

287 CuriousLurker  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:48:51am

re: #271 RayFerd

They were pretty stupid comments. I remember hearing that people were all pissed about his conversion and he did support the call for SR head which was stupid (as much as any fundie of any stripe says).

Yep, I never said his comments weren't stupid, but aside from his comments I don't know of any awful things he's done. I've said some pretty stupid, hateful, ugly things in my life. Most people have. Saying something stupid doesn't make someone an irredeemably horrible person unless it's an ongoing pattern. If it did, then the vast majority of us would have to be classified as perpetually unregenerate assholes.

288 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:49:19am

re: #284 NJDhockeyfan

Major face-palm...

New low ‘blow’: Coke eyed at Secret Service ho-down

I have huge respect for the Secret Service but this is embarrassing.

It also demonstrates a serious lack of discipline. These guys are too important to be doing this shit. It's dangerously reckless.

289 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:50:01am

re: #288 Killgore Trout

It also demonstrates a serious lack of discipline. These guys are too important to be doing this shit. It's dangerously reckless.

That's kind of ironic isn't it.

290 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:50:43am

re: #288 Killgore Trout

It also demonstrates a serious lack of discipline. These guys are too important to be doing this shit. It's dangerously reckless.

Despite the War on Drugs, cocaine is as cheap as it ever was...and I can imagine in Cartagena it was even cheaper.

291 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:51:53am

re: #287 CuriousLurker

The problem I see with the whole situation is that he didn't apologize in the end.

292 Obdicut  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:52:54am

re: #284 NJDhockeyfan

Well, don't believe something just because a hotel staffer told it to the NY POST.

If these allegations are true-- and I assume the Secret Service wouldn't act on a mere rumor-- these guys just threw away their entire careers for a shitty 80's style wild party.

293 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:53:26am

re: #291 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

The problem I see with the whole situation is that he didn't apologize in the end.

How could he and still remain a Muslim?

294 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:53:58am

re: #293 Expand Your Ground

How could he and still remain a Muslim?

Um? Like the other religions do.

295 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:55:26am

re: #294 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Um? Like the other religions do.

You mean like those "pseudo-Christians" who don't believe that gays should be put to death along with witches?

296 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:56:32am

re: #295 Expand Your Ground

You mean like those "pseudo-Christians" who don't believe that gays should be put to death along with witches?

I mean like those Christians, Jews and Muslims who don't think that blasphemy merits capital punishment.

297 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:59:46am

re: #296 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

I mean like those Christians, Jews and Muslims who don't think that blasphemy merits capital punishment.

You mean those heretics who reject a literalist & fundamentalist interpretation of their scriptures?

/

298 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:01:02am
299 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:01:35am

Gigity.

300 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:03:13am

re: #297 Expand Your Ground

You mean those heretics who reject a literalist & fundamentalist interpretation of their scriptures?

/

No, there are no "heretics" for me since I'm not "inside" any religion.

301 Shropshire_Slasher  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:04:05am

re: #298 Gus

How do you know those young ladies aren't just walking to church?!

302 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:05:44am

re: #300 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

No, there are no "heretics" for me since I'm not "inside" any religion.

Point is, Yusuf done placed himself firmly on the fundamentalist side and has not made any signs of moving out of it.

303 Shropshire_Slasher  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:06:30am

Levon Helm, the drummer and singer for The Band, whose Woodstock home has been the site of legendary Midnight Ramble concerts for more than seven years, is in "the final stages of his battle with cancer," according to a note on his website that is signed by his daughter and wife.

Read more: [Link: www.timesunion.com...]

304 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:07:31am

re: #301 Tommy's cone of shame

How do you know those young ladies aren't just walking to church?!

If they are I will join it.

305 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:08:21am

re: #302 Expand Your Ground

I haven't been paying any attention to his sayings, so I have no idea about his current views. As CL points out, he's hardly a fundie enough if he plays music. That said, he's not a victim of misrepresentation or vile attacks. He brought it on himself. All he had to say was "sorry, was full of shit, I don't think blasphemy merits capital punishment".

306 Shropshire_Slasher  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:08:57am

re: #304 NJDhockeyfan

Our most Blessed Mother of CFM Heels order?

307 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:09:52am

re: #306 Tommy's cone of shame

Our most Blessed Mother of CFM Heels order?

I wonder how communion is offered?

308 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:10:22am

re: #287 CuriousLurker

Yep, I never said his comments weren't stupid, but aside from his comments I don't know of any awful things he's done. I've said some pretty stupid, hateful, ugly things in my life. Most people have. Saying something stupid doesn't make someone an irredeemably horrible person unless it's an ongoing pattern. If it did, then the vast majority of us would have to be classified as perpetually unregenerate assholes.

That was how I felt and why I asked the question as to what he had done. I thought maybe he went off the deep end and had acted out (rather than spoke out) in some way I had not heard about.

309 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:13:06am

Embarrassment in the NC Democrat party...

Five elected officials call on N.C. Dem chief to resign

RALEIGH — Five Democratic statewide elected officials have called on state Democratic Party Chairman David Parker to resign as party regulars have learned recently about alleged harassment within Democratic headquarters.

The Council of State members said Tuesday it was in the best interest of North Carolina and the party for Parker to step aside because he can no longer be as effective as he needs to be under the circumstances. Party executive director Jay Parmley resigned Sunday. He denied participating in any harassment of party employees.

Gov. Beverly Perdue told reporters Tuesday the situation was an internal party personnel matter and declined further comment.

Parker said again Tuesday he wouldn't resign.

The five are calling for Parker's resignation are Elaine Marshall, June Atkinson, Wayne Goodwin, Janet Cowell and Beth Wood.

310 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:15:53am

re: #285 Gus

Image: la-0417-pin011.jpg

That is spectacular!

311 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:16:27am

re: #310 NJDhockeyfan

That is spectacular!

Almost surreal.

312 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:16:43am
313 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:17:30am

re: #312 Gus

As long as they shoot and butcher the dog themselves.

/

314 darthstar  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:19:54am

re: #257 Gus

Earth First!

We'll log the other planets later!

315 darthstar  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:20:31am

re: #312 Gus

It's unfair to whores to subject them to the Nuge.

316 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:20:37am

re: #311 Gus

Almost surreal.

Hollywood special effect studios couldn't beat it.

317 iossarian  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:21:00am
318 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:21:11am

Gosh, they are digging deep to find anything that might vaguely stick...

British Diplomats Feared Obama's Father Was Anti-American

319 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:21:54am

re: #317 iossarian

Poll: Obama leads Romney by 16 among women

What's that have to do with what's going on in NC?

320 sattv4u2  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:23:02am

re: #319 NJDhockeyfan

What's that have to do with what's going on in NC?

There are women in NC!!
/

321 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:23:10am

re: #316 NJDhockeyfan

Hollywood special effect studios couldn't beat it.

The blue "lighting" is what makes the shot.

322 Simply Sarah  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:23:28am

re: #316 NJDhockeyfan

Hollywood special effect studios couldn't beat it.

Turns out that often reality looks more unbelievable than what the minds in the entertainment business can think up.

323 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:25:03am
324 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:25:40am

re: #322 Simply Sarah

Turns out that often reality looks more unbelievable than what the minds in the entertainment business can think up.

Turns out that there are real women who are more stunningly beautiful than any of the starlets the entertaiment industry comes up with...

325 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:26:55am

Ted Nugent...

In 1978, Nugent began a relationship with seventeen-year-old Hawaii native Pele Massa. Due to the age difference they could not marry so Nugent joined Massa's parents in signing documents to make himself her legal guardian, an arrangement that Spin magazine ranked in October 2000 as #63 on their list of the "100 Sleaziest Moments in Rock".

326 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:27:04am

Shocka!

North Korea Says It Will Abandon Deal With U.S.

SEOUL, South Korea — North Korea said on Tuesday that it was abandoning an agreement it made in February with the United States, in which it promised to suspend uranium enrichment, nuclear tests and long-range missile tests.

...No longer bound by the deal, “we have thus become able to take necessary retaliatory measures,” the ministry said in the statement, which was carried by the state-run Korean Central News Agency. “The U.S. will be held wholly accountable for all the ensuing consequences.”

327 Simply Sarah  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:27:28am

re: #324 Expand Your Ground

Turns out that there are real women who are more stunningly beautiful than any of the starlets the entertaiment industry comes up with...

I'm flattered, but let's not make this all about me.
/

328 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:28:03am

re: #325 Gus

Ted Nugent...

That is pretty sleazy.

329 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:28:08am

IOW. In order to avoid statutory rape charges Ted Nugent made his girlfriend his "daughter."

330 Kragar  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:28:45am

So, I bust my butt to get into the office early for a meeting, only to learn its been cancelled, then they have a fire drill that I would have missed if I came in at my regular time.

Its one of those days.

331 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:28:45am

re: #323 Gus

[Embedded content]

Have you ever had one of those old Etch-a-Sketches where you turn it over and shake and shake and shake, and you can still see the last drawing?

I have. Then it gets a crack in it and all the silver stuff comes out and you think you're gonna die. Good thing it's actually non-toxic. Unlike Kris Kobach.

332 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:29:27am

re: #329 Gus

IOW. In order to avoid statutory rape charges Ted Nugent made his girlfriend his "daughter."

Can that be considered incest now?

333 Simply Sarah  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:30:48am

re: #325 Gus

Ted Nugent...

Wait. They couldn't get married, so instead they went for the alternative of entering into an unquestionably unethical relationship?

334 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:31:19am

re: #330 Kragar

So, I bust my butt to get into the office early for a meeting, only to learn its been cancelled, then they have a fire drill that I would have missed if I came in at my regular time.

Its one of those days.

Sounds like two of those days, rolled into one.

335 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:31:23am

*eyeroll* (not @ anyone in this thread)

336 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:31:25am

re: #329 Gus

IOW. In order to avoid statutory rape charges Ted Nugent made his girlfriend his "daughter."

Defend the Sanctity of Marriage!!!

In any case, the practice of "adoption" is not unheard-of among Mormon "old believers" who still wish to practice polygamy semi-legally...

337 lawhawk  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:31:48am

All the things that turn most folks off to politics (being more involved that is) encapsulated on the NY Daily News website's front page:

Obama ate a dog, Romney strapped one to the roof: 2012 race sinks to new lows - Right hits back at gripes Mitt Romney strapped dog to car’s roof: Obama ate dog meat as a child!

'I'm a black Jew at a Nazi-Klan rally': Right-wing rocker feels persecuted for his Obama slams - 2nd Amendment enthusiast Ted Nugent is defending calling Obama 'evil' and 'America-hating.'

Note we're not talking substantive policy - but how dog whistles (literally and figuratively, particularly with item 1) are in full effect.

Anyone want to hazard a guess whether this will have the effect of depressing turnout (though most voters will probably be depressed about their choices regardless?)?

338 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:32:20am

re: #335 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

*eyeroll* (not @ anyone in this thread)

Careful, they'll get stuck like that.

339 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:32:44am

re: #335 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

*eyeroll* (not @ anyone in this thread)

Which? Piers Morgan is linking to Breitbart on Twitter. Toure crap. About him being a truther.

340 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:33:30am

re: #339 Gus

Nah, some whiner.

341 Simply Sarah  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:34:10am

re: #335 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

*eyeroll* (not @ anyone in this thread)

Just reduced to eyerolling at the entire world again, huh?

342 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:34:58am

re: #341 Simply Sarah

The world's OK.

343 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:36:24am

The bikes are very patient, but their owners are starting to call...

Later. (I couldn't pick just one.)

344 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:38:08am

re: #339 Gus

Which? Piers Morgan is linking to Breitbart on Twitter. Toure crap. About him being a truther.

Boring...old news.

345 darthstar  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:40:34am

I just registered for Tour de Cure (Diabetes fundraiser) - I'll be doing the 50 mile course in Napa on May 6th. Nic is blue if you care to donate.

346 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:41:58am

re: #325 Gus

I am so happy I started pointing that out. :D

347 darthstar  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:42:08am

re: #345 darthstar

I just registered for Tour de Cure (Diabetes fundraiser) - I'll be doing the 50 mile course in Napa on May 6th. Nic is blue if you care to donate.

Okay...secure links don't work here...I forgot. Tinyurled it to see if that works.

348 darthstar  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:42:45am

Yep TinyURL is the way to link https sites.

349 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:42:47am

re: #345 darthstar

I just registered for Tour de Cure (Diabetes fundraiser) - I'll be doing the 50 mile course in Napa on May 6th. Nic is blue if you care to donate.

Oops! Google Chrome could not find https
Suggestions:
Search on Google:

350 darthstar  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:43:19am

re: #349 NJDhockeyfan

Oops! Google Chrome could not find https
Suggestions:
Search on Google:

Try my nic now (not in that first post though)

351 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:44:35am

re: #350 darthstar

Try my nic now (not in that first post though)

Got it, thanks!

352 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:45:47am

re: #339 Gus

Wasn't Piers Morgan some idiot airhead when over in Britain?

Why did we get him?

353 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:46:19am

re: #352 ProGunLiberal

Wasn't Piers Morgan some idiot airhead when over in Britain?

Why did we get him?

CNN

Actually they're all from CNN.

354 Kragar  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:46:19am

Next years Coachella line up has been announced.

Image: music-fails-the-coachella-lineup-is-out3.jpg

355 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:46:47am

CNN cluster-fuck. Film @ 11. I think the joke's on us.

356 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:48:28am

re: #353 Gus

He probably supported the EDL when he lived in Britain.

357 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:48:53am

re: #354 Kragar

Next years Coachella line up has been announced.

Image: music-fails-the-coachella-lineup-is-out3.jpg

Far out!

358 sattv4u2  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:49:57am

re: #337 lawhawk

Note we're not talking substantive policy

There's usually very little talk about "substantive policy" anymore. Each side gives out vague outlines peppered with sound bites which in turn become either
A) their campaign slogans
or (if mispoken)
B) used as fodder to beat them up with their own words

Regardless

hazard a guess whether this will have the effect of depressing turnout

Whats been the average of registered voters casting a ballot over (say) the last 30 years or so. iiirc it's below 50% and falling each election season,

359 makeitstop  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:50:38am

re: #313 Expand Your Ground

As long as they shoot and butcher the dog themselves.

/

Get Fred Malek on the phone. He's got valuable experience.

360 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:52:15am

re: #356 ProGunLiberal

He probably supported the EDL when he lived in Britain.

Probably not. He's actually a liberal. Climate change and all that. But, I think he's attracting a substantial Breitbart following with his feud with Toure. Including his infatuation with Dana Loesch. It's about getting an audience -- money talks. The truther stuff on Toure's part is stupid. Piers though has taken this over top. CNN's is kind of stupid though. Their website news is good but their "shows" are essentially worthless.

361 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:52:37am

re: #345 darthstar

I just registered for Tour de Cure (Diabetes fundraiser) - I'll be doing the 50 mile course in Napa on May 6th. Nic is blue if you care to donate.

Has Komen sued them for using the word "Cure"?

362 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:52:52am

re: #360 Gus

CNN-Crude News Network

363 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:57:00am

re: #318 Expand Your Ground

Gosh, they are digging deep to find anything that might vaguely stick...

British Diplomats Feared Obama's Father Was Anti-American

And that proves Obama's a bad president how. The whole construct that the RWNJs had constructed of Obama as being this secretly anti-American sleeper is stupid if not hilarious.

364 Simply Sarah  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:59:19am

re: #363 HappyWarrior

And that proves Obama's a bad president how. The whole construct that the RWNJs had constructed of Obama as being this secretly anti-American sleeper is stupid if not hilarious.

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree! Or whatever fruit they have in Kenya.

365 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:00:32am

re: #364 Simply Sarah

You know what cracks me up is when they refer to him as "The Kenyan." Ooh he's part Kenyan. So scary!

366 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:00:41am

re: #337 lawhawk

Note we're not talking substantive policy - but how dog whistles (literally and figuratively, particularly with item 1) are in full effect.

Anyone want to hazard a guess whether this will have the effect of depressing turnout (though most voters will probably be depressed about their choices regardless?)?

I suppose we may move on to policy issues eventually. Hopefully the debates will help introduce more substance. I don't know if it will effect turnout. Discussions about Dogs, wives and nonsense about who is more out of touch is what the people want. It might just be an election based on selective partisan finger pointing.

367 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:01:01am

re: #363 HappyWarrior

And that proves Obama's a bad president how. The whole construct that the RWNJs had constructed of Obama as being this secretly anti-American sleeper is stupid if not hilarious.

They quietly leave out the fact that the British had just gone through a bit of a nasty business with Kenya and certainly would have looked on anyone coming out of there with a jaundiced eye. And they had ties to a "Kenyan nationalist".

We know what that means: Mau-Maus running amok, butchering whites all across America while Obama denies us our gun rights!

And Ted Nugent will be in prison and unable to defend us!!!

368 Simply Sarah  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:02:24am

re: #365 HappyWarrior

You know what cracks me up is when they refer to him as "The Kenyan." Ooh he's part Kenyan. So scary!

It means he'll be too fast to be caught once he destroys the country, clearly.

369 iossarian  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:03:47am

re: #366 Killgore Trout

I suppose we may move on to policy issues eventually. Hopefully the debates will help introduce more substance. I don't know if it will effect turnout. Discussions about Dogs, wives and nonsense about who is more out of touch is what the people want. It might just be an election based on selective partisan finger pointing.

There's a policy issue out there this very morning - Romney advisor draws bright line on immigration amnesty.

Loads of policy issues being discussed if you pay attention. "Let Detroit Fail" etc.

370 Simply Sarah  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:04:25am

re: #366 Killgore Trout

I suppose we may move on to policy issues eventually. Hopefully the debates will help introduce more substance. I don't know if it will effect turnout. Discussions about Dogs, wives and nonsense about who is more out of touch is what the people want. It might just be an election based on selective partisan finger pointing.

Well, that's sort of the thing. Based on what appears to be the current Republican party platform, trying to run on substance seems like it would be a no go.

371 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:05:19am

Breaking election coverage!
Dogs Against Romney Defends Obama Over Dog Consumption Revelations
How will this effect the swing states? Which side will Florida take in the dog wars? I can't wait until the pollsters start adding dog questions. Stay tuned for updates in the developing story.

372 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:05:22am

re: #369 iossarian

There's a policy issue out there this very morning - Romney advisor draws bright line on immigration amnesty.

Loads of policy issues being discussed if you pay attention. "Let Detroit Fail" etc.

Or that Romney won't give a statement if he supports Lily Ledbetter. I imagine for many women voters, his stance on that issue is important.

373 Simply Sarah  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:06:57am

re: #372 HappyWarrior

Or that Romney won't give a statement if he supports Lily Ledbetter. I imagine for many women voters, his stance on that issue is important.

For many, but not all. It's not important to me because I long ago made up my mind on how I was voting and learning just how little he thinks of people like me won't make a difference.

374 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:07:11am

re: #370 Simply Sarah

Well, that's sort of the thing. Based on what appears to be the current Republican party platform, trying to run on substance seems like it would be a no go.

I agree. Although I see Mitt as a moderate he'll be hard pressed to reconcile his record with the Republican party platform. He's more than happy to have this election focus on dogs and wives. It's a huge gift for the Republicans.

375 iossarian  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:09:04am

re: #374 Killgore Trout

I agree. Although I see Mitt as a moderate he'll be hard pressed to reconcile his record with the Republican party platform. He's more than happy to have this election focus on dogs and wives. It's a huge gift for the Republicans.

So what you're saying is: the fact that the media is focusing on trivial stuff rather than policy is an example of bias in favor of a Republican politician?

376 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:09:50am

re: #371 Killgore Trout

Breaking election coverage!
Dogs Against Romney Defends Obama Over Dog Consumption Revelations
How will this effect the swing states? Which side will Florida take in the dog wars? I can't wait until the pollsters start adding dog questions. Stay tuned for updates in the developing story.

The Dog Debates are going to be one wild ride!

377 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:09:58am

re: #373 Simply Sarah

For many, but not all. It's not important to me because I long ago made up my mind on how I was voting and learning just how little he thinks of people like me won't make a difference.

Gotcha. I'm not impressed with him at all really. Never have been.

378 iossarian  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:10:55am

re: #374 Killgore Trout

I agree. Although I see Mitt as a moderate he'll be hard pressed to reconcile his record with the Republican party platform. He's more than happy to have this election focus on dogs and wives. It's a huge gift for the Republicans.

Incidentally, I like the attempt to dismiss the focus on Republicans' anti-women policies as a distraction. When you're complaining about the lack of attention paid to actual policies, that's a neat trick.

379 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:11:28am

Dog on roof of car vs eating dog meat.

Discuss...

380 sattv4u2  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:11:41am

re: #376 NJDhockeyfan

The Dog Debates are going to be one wild ride!

You know how politics work

Most deals are done in smokey back rooms!!

Image: va003-3.jpg

381 Simply Sarah  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:11:45am

re: #374 Killgore Trout

I agree. Although I see Mitt as a moderate he'll be hard pressed to reconcile his record with the Republican party platform. He's more than happy to have this election focus on dogs and wives. It's a huge gift for the Republicans.

Well, as I've said before I see the current "mainstream" Democratic party as generally center-left to center-right (And sometimes outright on the right), whereas I see the GOP as going from fairly to the right to way the fuck out there. As such, even a so called moderate Republican is someone I consider as being rather on the right.

That and I can't tell what the hell Mitt is anymore. He ran as a moderate Republican here for governor, but seems to have reversed or otherwise disowned most of the positions he took while running/serving here.

382 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:12:07am

re: #375 iossarian

So what you're saying is: the fact that the media is focusing on trivial stuff rather than policy is an example of bias in favor of a Republican politician?

I don't think it's pro-Republican bias but the Republicans are more than happy to take advantage of the situation.

383 iossarian  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:13:28am

re: #379 NJDhockeyfan

Dog on roof of car vs eating dog meat.

Discuss...

re: #371 Killgore Trout

Breaking election coverage!
Dogs Against Romney Defends Obama Over Dog Consumption Revelations
How will this effect the swing states? Which side will Florida take in the dog wars? I can't wait until the pollsters start adding dog questions. Stay tuned for updates in the developing story.

Ironic that the right-wingers are pushing the "dog vs. dog" line in virtually the same breath as complaining about the lack of focus on serious policy issues.

Here's a suggestion: let's not mention the dog thing on LGF again, and just focus on how Mitt wants to deny naturalization to families who have spent years working hard to contribute to American society?

384 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:14:09am
385 Simply Sarah  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:14:20am

re: #383 iossarian

re: #371 Killgore Trout

Ironic that the right-wingers are pushing the "dog vs. dog" line in virtually the same breath as complaining about the lack of focus on serious policy issues.

Here's a suggestion: let's not mention the dog thing on LGF again, and just focus on how Mitt wants to deny naturalization to families who have spent years working hard to contribute to American society?

It's an Obama eat dog world out there!
/ Sorry

386 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:15:30am

re: #383 iossarian

re: #371 Killgore Trout

Ironic that the right-wingers are pushing the "dog vs. dog" line in virtually the same breath as complaining about the lack of focus on serious policy issues.

Here's a suggestion: let's not mention the dog thing on LGF again, and just focus on how Mitt wants to deny naturalization to families who have spent years working hard to contribute to American society?

Good luck with that. I'd like it but this is what gets people excited and you can't convince them it's a bad idea.

387 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:16:04am

re: #384 NJDhockeyfan

More dog news...

Professional Bizarre-Food Eater Draws the Line at Dogs

Professional bizzare foot eater?

388 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:16:09am

My new puppy will never sit on the roof of my SUV nor will it be the main course at my dinner table.

Just sayin'

389 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:16:41am

re: #384 NJDhockeyfan

More dog news...

Professional Bizarre-Food Eater Draws the Line at Dogs

NRO!?!?! White nationalist anti-Obama wingnut propaganda!
///Derpstorm

390 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:16:45am

re: #388 NJDhockeyfan

My new puppy will never sit on the roof of my SUV nor will it be the main course at my dinner table.

Just sayin'

I hope you have its long-form pedigree roll....

391 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:16:51am

re: #387 HappyWarrior

Professional bizzare foot eater?

Somebody has to own that title!

392 iossarian  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:17:24am

re: #386 Killgore Trout

Good luck with that. I'd like it but this is what gets people excited and you can't convince them it's a bad idea.

OK. I'll take you at your word that you're interested in talking policy.

What is it about Mitt Romney's policy positions that makes you think that he's a moderate?

393 Simply Sarah  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:17:36am

You say Mitt mistreated Seamus, but he cared for and loved him! President Obama would have simply had him for dinner! Who's the real danger to dogs now?

394 sattv4u2  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:17:55am

re: #387 HappyWarrior

Professional bizzare foot eater?

he has a show called Bizarre Foods with Andrew Zimmern on The Travel Channel

[Link: www.travelchannel.com...]

395 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:18:05am

re: #383 iossarian

re: #371 Killgore Trout

Ironic that the right-wingers are pushing the "dog vs. dog" line in virtually the same breath as complaining about the lack of focus on serious policy issues.

Here's a suggestion: let's not mention the dog thing on LGF again, and just focus on how Mitt wants to deny naturalization to families who have spent years working hard to contribute to American society?

That's a very valid criticism and one he should be hit hard on.

396 lawhawk  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:18:50am

re: #379 NJDhockeyfan

Dog on roof of car vs eating dog meat.

Discuss...

Can't discuss until I've done both. /

Considering that some cultures will eat stuff that others wont, I'm not particularly shocked that Indonesians can and do eat dog, or that Obama did so while in Indonesia (and it's not like this is some surprise or amazing revelation - it was in his book that came out years back).

However, American values on animal cruelty are something that most people are familiar with (being in America and all) - and most wouldn't treat their own pets like that.

397 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:19:20am

re: #394 sattv4u2

he has a show called Bizarre Foods with Andrew Zimmern on The Travel Channel

[Link: www.travelchannel.com...]

I figured he had a show but the title "professional bizarre food" eater amused me.

398 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:22:00am

re: #392 iossarian

OK. I'll take you at your word that you're interested in talking policy.

What is it about Mitt Romney's policy positions that makes you think that he's a moderate?

Well, from the videos posted on LGF last week about Mitt's wife I learned that Mitt helped found a very successful daycare company to help working families and that Obama and Mitt have identical views on welfare reform. I don't think Mitt is a radical wingnut.

399 sattv4u2  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:22:24am

Spot

The other OTHER white meat !!!

400 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:25:02am

I don't know about anyone else here but I had to Google "Seamus" yesterday. Didn't even know who or what that was.

402 Shropshire_Slasher  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:25:28am

re: #388 NJDhockeyfan
What about in the back of a pickup?
I'm guilty of that.
Tethered of course, I'm not a monster!

403 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:25:45am

re: #401 Killgore Trout

Joe Scarborough Loses It Laughing Over News That Obama Has Eaten Dog Meat (video)

Wait a minute. I thought you were just pleading for people to stop talking about this dog stuff? Interesting.

404 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:25:57am

re: #264 lawhawk

We'll mine Mars later.

Get your ass to Mars!

/Ahnold

405 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:26:35am

re: #400 Gus

I don't know about anyone else here but I had to Google "Seamus" yesterday. Didn't even know who or what that was.

I remember hearing it back in 08. I'm not going to vote against him because of that but he looked like a jerk the way he told the story.

406 Shropshire_Slasher  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:26:39am

re: #399 sattv4u2
I can't say what dog tastes like, but I do know that woodchuck tastes like dirt.

407 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:26:46am

re: #403 Gus

Wait a minute. I thought you were just pleading for people to stop talking about this dog stuff? Interesting.

Outrageous!

408 A Mom Anon  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:26:57am

Sigh.

Obama ate dog meat as a kid. In Indonesia. Which,if part of the family meal,he probably didn't have much say in. Ya know,if he wanted to eat.

Mitt on the other hand was a grown man when he chose to strap Seamus on the roof of the car,not once,but twice. Even if one had the poor judgement to do it the first time,after the poor dog crapped himself,it might have been wise to put the luggage on the roof and the dog in the car. Buy some towels and make a place for the critter. LIKE NORMAL PEOPLE. FFS.

409 Simply Sarah  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:26:58am

re: #398 Killgore Trout

Well, from the videos posted on LGF last week about Mitt's wife I learned that Mitt helped found a very successful daycare company to help working families and that Obama and Mitt have identical views on welfare reform. I don't think Mitt is a radical wingnut.

Deep down? Probably not, at least on most things. However, I'm rather less concerned with Mitt's inner thoughts and character than I am with how he's likely to serve as president. And I have a lot of trouble seeing him do much to stand up to the real actual radicals.

410 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:27:02am

re: #407 Killgore Trout

Outrageous!

Confusing.

411 allegro  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:27:08am

re: #398 Killgore Trout

Well, from the videos posted on LGF last week about Mitt's wife as policy advisor I learned that Mitt helped found a very successful profitable daycare company to help working families enrich shareholders and that Obama and Mitt have identical one similar views on a particular idea for welfare reform. I don't think Mitt is a radical wingnut.

He is today. Maybe tomorrow? Who knows?

412 Kragar  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:27:40am

re: #403 Gus

Wait a minute. I thought you were just pleading for people to stop talking about this dog stuff? Interesting.

Thats all pretty standard.

413 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:28:00am

re: #412 Kragar

Thats all pretty standard.

Damn you!

//

414 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:28:24am

re: #411 allegro

He is today. Maybe tomorrow? Who knows?

And therein lies Etchy's problem. He runs away from a past position and even success if he thinks it will make him look more "severely conservative."

415 sattv4u2  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:30:18am

re: #403 Gus

Wait a minute. I thought you were just pleading for people to stop talking about this dog stuff? Interesting.

"pleading"!?!?!

Saying "I'd like it" is "pleading"?

As you said ,, Interesting.

417 iossarian  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:32:32am

re: #398 Killgore Trout

Well, from the videos posted on LGF last week about Mitt's wife I learned that Mitt helped found a very successful daycare company to help working families and that Obama and Mitt have identical views on welfare reform. I don't think Mitt is a radical wingnut.

He started a business. How does that "help working families"? Or was he making donations to reduce their cost of using the service? Is Wal-Mart "helping working families"?

If you think Obama and Mitt have "identical views on welfare reform" I don't know what to say. Mitt has endorsed the House GOP budget, which is a million miles away from the kind of thing Obama is talking about.

Maybe you should stick to the dog thing after all.

[Link: www.politico.com...]

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

418 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:33:21am

re: #384 NJDhockeyfan

More dog news...

Professional Bizarre-Food Eater Draws the Line at Dogs

But he has eaten it twice. Guess that line is hard to see.

419 sattv4u2  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:33:23am

re: #417 iossarian

He started a business. How does that "help working families"?

{sigh}

420 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:34:19am

re: #415 sattv4u2

"pleading"!?!?!

Saying "I'd like it" is "pleading"?

As you said ,, Interesting.

Uhhhhh. Damn, you got me.

421 iossarian  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:35:22am

re: #419 sattv4u2

He started a business. How does that "help working families"?

{sigh}

By that rationale, anyone starting a business is helping working families.

Which might be your point of view, I don't know. I tend to think of that as normal economic activity, if it's in your own interest, i.e., you're making money out of the business.

I reserve phrases like "helping working families" for people who do stuff that doesn't directly benefit themselves, for other people.

422 sattv4u2  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:35:40am

re: #420 Gus

Uhhh. Damn, you got me.

Not a matter of getting anyone
just seemed to be a leap from 'I'd like it''

423 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:36:06am

re: #422 sattv4u2

Not a matter of getting anyone
just seemed to be a leap from 'I'd like it''

I'll get you some smelling salts.

424 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:36:36am

re: #421 iossarian

By that rationale, anyone starting a business is helping working families.

Which might be your point of view, I don't know. I tend to think of that as normal economic activity, if it's in your own interest, i.e., you're making money out of the business.

I reserve phrases like "helping working families" for people who do stuff that doesn't directly benefit themselves, for other people.

What business are we referring to?

425 iossarian  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:38:37am

re: #424 Gus

What business are we referring to?

People are holding up Romney's child care company as an example of him "helping working families".

I'm just pointing out that for me, if he's making money out of the company, it's a self-interested economic venture. For me, "helping" people pretty much implies that the action you're taking doesn't directly benefit your own self.

426 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:39:23am

re: #425 iossarian

People are holding up Romney's child care company as an example of him "helping working families".

I'm just pointing out that for me, if he's making money out of the company, it's a self-interested economic venture. For me, "helping" people pretty much implies that the action you're taking doesn't directly benefit your own self.

OK. I just forgot the name of that child care company. Do you remember it?

427 iossarian  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:40:52am

re: #426 Gus

OK. I just forgot the name of that child care company. Do you remember it?

No, I think it's pretty obscure - references seem to go back to him mentioning it in 1994?

He was an anarcho-syndicalist that year, FWIW. Except for the second two weeks in August, when he was a neo-Filibertian.

428 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:41:07am

re: #424 Gus

What business are we referring to?

That daycare company. I forget the name. He mentions it in his speech that Charles posted.

429 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:41:18am

re: #426 Gus

OK. I just forgot the name of that child care company. Do you remember it?

It was something "Horizon." Deepwater? Oh wait...//

430 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:41:39am

re: #429 Learned Mother of Zion

It was something "Horizon." Deepwater? Oh wait...//

Found it. Bright Horizons Family Solutions

431 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:41:44am

re: #425 iossarian

People are holding up Romney's child care company as an example of him "helping working families".

I'm just pointing out that for me, if he's making money out of the company, it's a self-interested economic venture. For me, "helping" people pretty much implies that the action you're taking doesn't directly benefit your own self.

Agree with that assessment and I think it's why we see so many business majors in college. My Dad started his to make more money for our family. Didn't work out unfortunately.

432 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:42:09am

re: #430 Gus

Found it. Bright Horizons Family Solutions

That sounds about right.

433 sattv4u2  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:42:45am

re: #421 iossarian

I reserve phrases like "helping working families" for people who do stuff that doesn't directly benefit themselves, for other people.

So,,, nothing qualifies as "helping working families" because everything to some degree "directly benefit(s) themselves"

434 iossarian  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:43:47am

re: #430 Gus

Found it. Bright Horizons Family Solutions

From their website, they look like the company that your employer uses to foist low-quality backup care on you rather than providing sick leave to look after your kids.

Helping working families increase their productivity for no extra pay!

435 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:44:00am

re: #432 Killgore Trout

That sounds about right.

Here. You'll get a kick out of this.

Romney's Job Creation
Mitt Romney’s Job Creation Record: Supporting Companies with Radical Social Policies!!!!

436 iossarian  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:44:38am

re: #433 sattv4u2


I reserve phrases like "helping working families" for people who do stuff that doesn't directly benefit themselves, for other people.

So,,, nothing qualifies as "helping working families" because everything to some degree "directly benefit(s) themselves"

No, if you give money to a charity that provides discounted day care for low income families, then you are "helping working families".

See how it works now?

437 sattv4u2  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:45:09am

re: #436 iossarian

No, if you give money to a charity that provides discounted day care for low income families, then you are "helping working families".

See how it works now?

Tax write off

See how THAT works

NEXT!

438 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:45:14am

Whoboy!

Another Bain & Co. protégé, Bright Horizons, is a day-care center chain that receives the 100% rating from HRC. This means they agree to employ transgenders/cross-dressers/transsexuals without discrimination, as well as provide their “transitioning” health costs. What about little children exposed to such disturbing perversions? It does not appear this was a problem for Romney or his former company. (Of course, he can always claim ignorance of the policy.) “Bain Capital helped guide hundreds of companies on a successful course, including Staples, Bright Horizons Family Solutions, Domino’s Pizza, Sealy, Brookstone, and The Sports Authority.”

439 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:45:57am

re: #435 Gus

Here. You'll get a kick out of this.

Romney's Job Creation
Mitt Romney’s Job Creation Record: Supporting Companies with Radical Social Policies!!!

Heh.

440 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:46:14am

re: #438 Gus

Whoboy!

And this is why I almost pity Mitt, these are the nuts who he has to kiss ass to.

441 iossarian  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:46:25am

re: #437 sattv4u2

Tax write off

See how THAT works

NEXT!

Sigh. The tax write off (for most individuals) only reduces your taxable income. So your net income after the donation would still be less than if you had not donated, and paid the marginal rate of tax.

442 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:48:32am

re: #436 iossarian

No, if you give money to a charity that provides discounted day care for low income families, then you are "helping working families".

See how it works now?

See Mitt and Obama's views on welfare reform. They'd both rather pay more to provide welfare recipients daycare expenses in order to return them to the workforce.

443 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:48:40am

Going up!

444 sattv4u2  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:48:46am

re: #441 iossarian

Sigh. The tax write off (for most individuals) only reduces your taxable income. So your net income after the donation would still be less than if you had not donated, and paid the marginal rate of tax.

So it directly benefits that person

445 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:49:07am

re: #443 Gus

Going up!

MOar Dawg!

446 Simply Sarah  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:51:45am

re: #435 Gus

Here. You'll get a kick out of this.

Romney's Job Creation
Mitt Romney’s Job Creation Record: Supporting Companies with Radical Social Policies!!!

Ugh. That reads like a piece off MassResistance. Oh, and look, there's a link to them. Colour me shocked. For everything people say about the Commonwealth being so liberal, our bigots are top/bottom (take your pick) rate.

447 iossarian  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:52:21am

re: #444 sattv4u2

So it directly benefits that person

Please try to read and understand. Assume person A makes $100K a year and pays $25K in tax (we'll assume a flat tax rate of 25% but the same argument works with a more complex marginal system).

If person A does not make a donation, his net income is $75K.

If person A donates $20K, his pre-tax income is now $80K. He then pays 25% in tax, which equates to $20K. After tax, his net income is $60K, $15K less than it was without the donation. So he has avoided $5K in tax but is still worse off than before.

Beyond this simple example, do you really believe, as you said above, that there is nothing that people do that doesn't directly benefit themselves?

448 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:52:44am

re: #446 Simply Sarah

Ugh. That reads like a piece off MassResistance. Oh, and look, there's a link to them. Colour me shocked. For everything people say about the Commonwealth being so liberal, our bigots are top/bottom (take your pick) rate.

What's MassResitance if you don't mind me asking.

449 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:53:00am

re: #446 Simply Sarah

Ugh. That reads like a piece off MassResistance. Oh, and look, there's a link to them. Colour me shocked. For everything people say about the Commonwealth being so liberal, our bigots are top/bottom (take your pick) rate.

Yeah. That's some crazy shit right there. I used to see the same type of crap about McCain back in 2008. The far-right lunatics.

450 Simply Sarah  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:53:16am

re: #442 Killgore Trout

See Mitt and Obama's views on welfare reform. They'd both rather pay more to provide welfare recipients daycare expenses in order to return them to the workforce.

Which is funny, since I thought the Romney's were all for stay at home parents...

451 iossarian  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:55:29am

re: #442 Killgore Trout

See Mitt and Obama's views on welfare reform. They'd both rather pay more to provide welfare recipients daycare expenses in order to return them to the workforce.

Again, this is one fairly minor aspect of "welfare reform". To extrapolate that to saying that Mitt holds the same views on Welfare as Obama is ludicrous.

I mean, where would Mitt find the money to pay for even this small part of a welfare program, given his adherence to GOP tax cut orthodoxy?

452 Simply Sarah  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:55:40am

re: #448 HappyWarrior

What's MassResitance if you don't mind me asking.

MassResistance is an utterly abominable and disgusting anti-gay and anti-trans hate group based here in Massachusetts. Even for a hate group, they're pretty open and vile about how they go about things. If you really want to see for yourself, their website is here, but be warned that it's a nasty place.

453 sattv4u2  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:57:38am

re: #447 iossarian

The decision to donate the 20K, as benevolent as the intent may be, still results in a benefit to themselves. No, not in the "bottom line" (of course he'd be in total better off is he didn't donate) but to say he didn't benefit from it is wrong

AND ,, it goes beyond a monetary benefit, which you don't even seem to consider, instead making it an absolute dollars and cents issue

There are benefits beyond that

454 sattv4u2  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:58:37am

And on that note, off to the Wonderful World of Conference Call

455 iossarian  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 11:02:16am

re: #453 sattv4u2

The decision to donate the 20K, as benevolent as the intent may be, still results in a benefit to themselves. No, not in the "bottom line" (of course he'd be in total better off is he didn't donate) but to say he didn't benefit from it is wrong

This statement by itself is absurd. In economic terms the person is better off not donating.

AND ,, it goes beyond a monetary benefit, which you don't even seem to consider, instead making it an absolute dollars and cents issue

I'm making a clear distinction between economic benefit and the psychological benefits of helping someone, which are obviously real. My point is that, the more you benefit economically from an action, the less you can be said to be "helping" someone via that action. That just seems to me to be the way most people use that word.

If someone sells a drowning man a life vest for a million dollars, we don't typically say that was a very helpful thing to do.

456 iossarian  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 11:02:54am

Going up indeed.

457 AK-47%  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 11:21:04am

re: #409 Simply Sarah

Deep down? Probably not, at least on most things. However, I'm rather less concerned with Mitt's inner thoughts and character than I am with how he's likely to serve as president. And I have a lot of trouble seeing him do much to stand up to the real actual radicals.

The point was made that his hands will be really tied, as he will fear a revolt within his own party.

458 sattv4u2  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 12:27:14pm

re: #455 iossarian

the more you benefit economically from an action, the less you can be said to be "helping" someone via that action

Now you're talking degrees, as opposed to prior when you were talking in absolutes

I reserve phrases like "helping working families" for people who do stuff that doesn't directly benefit themselves, for other people.

459 iossarian  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:05:06pm

re: #458 sattv4u2

the more you benefit economically from an action, the less you can be said to be "helping" someone via that action

Now you're talking degrees, as opposed to prior when you were talking in absolutes

I reserve phrases like "helping working families" for people who do stuff that doesn't directly benefit themselves, for other people.

Oh for fucks' sake.

How about this: to the extent that an action does not economically benefit the person carrying it out, that action can be said to be "helping" someone else.

Thus, to the extent that Mitt Romney was making money from his child care business, he cannot be said to have been "helping working families" with it.


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