video made me dizzy.

So where are you Sergey?

re: #2 ggt

So where are you Sergey?

Still reading the article about intelligence.

re: #3 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Still reading the article about intelligence.

There is a joke in there somewhere.

what article?

i've been practising my hepcat playlist

these foolish things
please keep me in your dreams
never swat a fly
any bonds today

i first got my love of swing from that underappreciated master of hep crooning, bugs bunny, who does a great job on the last tune listed

re: #4 ggt

Oh, I gave the link about it in some thread - the last one or the one before that. PDF: [Link: scottbarrykaufman.com...] Basically talks about what we know about intelligence, influence of genes and environment, etc.

re: #6 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Oh, I gave the link about it in some thread - the last one or the one before that. PDF: [Link: scottbarrykaufman.com...] Basically talks about what we know about intelligence, influence of genes and environment, etc.

I read an article the other day about pre-school education. It seems it only benefits the lower socio-economic kids. More affluent kids get lots of stimulation and don't need the added stimuation of pre-school.

And the benefits are ginormus. We really need to keep funding Head Start and such programs.

I'm from the Montessori school of thinking. Every child is gifted, we just need to provide the environment for them to grow as they were intended by the Flying Spaghetti Monster to grow.

re: #7 ggt

Pretty much.

Cuteness for the evening.

It's odd you know. That a country that was founded by immigrants. Many of who escaped religious or ethnic persecution. That required the invasion of a land which was already populated with a culture of people. Many of whom were killed in the wars against the Indians. A nation of different languages, religions, ethnicities and races. A nation that brought slaves from Africa who literally built most our infrastructure along with the Chinese in the West. That that same nation is now populated with people demanding that we retain an "American identity" that never really existed and fear the others that now come to our shores.

More cuteness!

re: #10 Gus

It's odd you know. That a country that was founded by immigrants. Many of who escaped religious or ethnic persecution. That required the invasion of a land which was already populated with a culture of people. Many of whom were killed in the wars against the Indians. A nation of different languages, religions, ethnicities and races. A nation that brought slaves from Africa who literally built most our infrastructure along with the Chinese in the West. That that same nation is now populated with people demanding that we retain an "American identity" that never really existed and fear the others that now come to our shores.

B,b,but WE ARE A CHRISTIAN NATION!

/

I don't know how to do the purple stuff.

Sometimes my ears stand-up, sometimes they don't.

re: #12 ggt

B,b,but WE ARE A CHRISTIAN NATION!

/

I don't know how to do the purple stuff.

[ wingnut ] insert rant [ /wingnut ]

remove spaces and you get

RW talking point

re: #14 Expand Your Ground

[ wingnut ] insert rant [ /wingnut ]

remove spaces and you get

very kool!

You know what this video is missing? James Earl Jones narrating some new age poetry shit over the music...

Stars..Night..Our world..Built it Ray..

re: #16 HoosierHoops

You know what this video is missing? James Earl Jones narrating some new age poetry shit over the music...

Stars..Night..Our world..Built it Ray..

nah

I'm off to bed.

You can now return to your regularly scheduled late-night thread.

Have a good one all!

re: #12 ggt

B,b,but WE ARE A CHRISTIAN NATION!

/

I don't know how to do the purple stuff.

That's OK. Seriously. It's kind of absurd. This country was first divided into basic block of England, France, Spain, and Indians. Indians themselves were also divided into separate nations. The dominant power was of course British. Along with that were the Africans slaves and the Chinese workers. Then the various European and Asian immigrants that came here over time. All with different languages and cultures.

It is also a founding myth that the Pilgrims came over here to enjoy freedom from religious persecution.

They came over in order to be free to practice their own form of religious persecution without outside interference.

re: #16 HoosierHoops

You know what this video is missing? James Earl Jones narrating some new age poetry shit over the music...

Stars..Night..Our world..Built it Ray..

No? OK how about in the video he has a UFO fly across the sky? Talk about going viral..and not just any UFO..One that has a dog tied to the top..

Wild, wild West:

"There is a very thin line between communism, progressivism, Marxism, Socialism ... it's about nationalizing production, it's about creating and expanding the welfare state. It's about this idea of social and economic justice," said the retired military officer.

In other words "I don't really understand any of them, but I know they are bad because they are different from my ideas".

I'm doing I will regret in about, oh, 4 minutes?

Meet the new editor for National Review Online. A fitting spokesman for nativists and the "heritage population." # twitpic.com/9b5kms

— Gus (@Gus_802) April 18, 2012

re: #23 ProGunLiberal

Actually, it was about 51 seconds.

re: #23 ProGunLiberal

I'm doing I will regret in about, oh, 4 minutes?

What up little bro?

re: #26 HoosierHoops

About 20-25 of my FB friends have been gushing about some band from Britain called One Direction. Well, when listening to a TSwift song, I saw something from them in the sidebar (Vevo will link to other artists), so I decided to click and see what they sound like.

I have an exceedingly good memory. One Direction is the 1990's Boy Bands all over again.

I was listening to this song, when I saw that in the sidebar.

Thanks for filling us in on what my kids will be listening to in coming weeks.

re: #28 Expand Your Ground

You're welcome. I expect some sort of compensation the martyrdom of my ears.

re: #27 ProGunLiberal

About 20-25 of my FB friends have been gushing about some band from Britain called One Direction. Well, when listening to a TSwift song, I saw something from them in the sidebar (Vevo will link to other artists), so I decided to click and see what they sound like.

I have an exceedingly good memory. One Direction is the 1990's Boy Bands all over again.

I was listening to this song, when I saw that in the sidebar.

[Embedded content]

I don't listen to her much..I've heard her hits..I'll say this..She is an extremely talented young Lady.. not just a pretty face.

re: #30 HoosierHoops

Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of One Direction.

I shall spare you all the Boy Band Garbage, and not link to it.

re: #29 ProGunLiberal

You're welcome. I expect some sort of compensation for the martyrdom of my ears that has occurred.

That makes more sense.

re: #31 ProGunLiberal

Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of One Direction.

I shall spare you all the Boy Band Garbage, and not link to it.

check this out.. listen to the words

Interesting, kind of self-fulfilling prophecy:

Our understanding of group differences in intellectual ability
is furthered by the very large literature on psychological
reactions to negative stereotypes. Steele and Aronson
(1995) argued that when test takers are aware of widespread
stereotypes that impugn a group’s intelligence (e.g.,
“Black people are stupid,” “Girls can’t do math”), they
frequently experience the threat of devaluation—by the
self, by others, or by both. The resulting arousal and
anxiety can impair executive functioning on complex tasks
such as standardized aptitude tests. Steele and Aronson
called this response stereotype threat and demonstrated in
a series of experiments that Black test takers scored considerably
better—sometimes far better—on intellectual
tests when the test was presented in a manner that downplayed
ability evaluation or downplayed the relevance of
race. Since the publication of Steele and Aronson’s 1995
article, some 200 replications of the effect have been published,
extending the findings to women and mathematics
abilities, Latinos and verbal abilities, elderly individuals
and short-term memory abilities, low-income students and
verbal abilities, and a number of nonacademic domains as
well. See Steele, Spencer, and Aronson (2002) and Aronson
and McGlone (2009) for reviews of the literature.
Two recent meta-analyses reported by Walton and
Spencer (2009) that included the data from nearly 19,000
students indicate that stereotype threat can cause tests to
underestimate the true abilities of students likely to experience
stereotype threat (Walton & Spencer, 2009). Walton
and Spencer’s analysis suggests a conservative estimate
that women’s math performance and Black students’ verbal
performance are suppressed by about 0.2 SD. In a number
of the individual studies, however, the suppression was
closer to a full standard deviation.
The stereotype threat formulation has led to a variety
of simple educational interventions conducted in schools
and colleges that have substantially raised the achievement
of Black students (e.g., Aronson, Fried, & Good, 2002;
G. L. Cohen, Garcia, Apfel, & Master, 2006) and the
achievement of girls in mathematics (Blackwell, Trzesniewski,
& Dweck, 2007; Good, Aronson, & Inzlicht, 2003).
The studies suggest that stereotype threat suppresses realworld
intellectual achievements. Some of the interventions
seem remarkably minor on the surface yet produce substantial
gains in academic achievement. For example, simple
efforts at persuading minority students that their intelligence
is under their control to a substantial extent have
nontrivial effects on academic performance (Aronson et al.,
2002; Blackwell et al., 2007).

re: #33 HoosierHoops

Good band. I remember them, and have some of their songs on my MP3.

Jezebel has something on One Direction:

One Direction Nearly Had a Boy Band Rumble with The Wanted

I feel like I just fell into a time warp. Back to the late 90's.

re: #35 ProGunLiberal

Good band. I remember them, and have some of their songs on my MP3.

Jezebel has something on One Direction:

One Direction Nearly Had a Boy Band Rumble with The Wanted

I feel like I just fell into a time warp. Back to the late 90's.

I'd love to come to your graduation

re: #36 HoosierHoops

Give me a second on that, that just seems a bit weird, seeing as I haven't met you yet.

re: #37 ProGunLiberal

Give me a second on that, that just seems a bit weird, seeing as I haven't met you yet.

Not to worry... I was just going to watch ( 4 blocks away)..Not meet you..This is a time for family and friends..
Congrads!

re: #10 Gus

It's odd you know. That a country that was founded by immigrants. Many of who escaped religious or ethnic persecution. That required the invasion of a land which was already populated with a culture of people. Many of whom were killed in the wars against the Indians. A nation of different languages, religions, ethnicities and races. A nation that brought slaves from Africa who literally built most our infrastructure along with the Chinese in the West. That that same nation is now populated with people demanding that we retain an "American identity" that never really existed and fear the others that now come to our shores.

There's been a bloc of conservatives demanding retention of an "identity" for the entire time of European occupation of this continent. Just read history and you get the Hudson Valley Dutch complaining about the immigrant Germans and Irish. The same with the Know Nothings a hundred years later. And so on.

re: #34 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Heh. I remember OhCrap for some reason taking amazing offense when I referenced that phenomenon.

It seems pretty uncontroversial to me. Expectations have an effect on performance.

Morning, all

Timeless.

One of my favorite pop tunes, especially since it's not written in boring 4/4 like nearly all pop tunes:

Morning All. Another graveyard shift day in a warm (and not yet sunny) Philadelphia.

Noisy about the past few afternoons as the city is jackhammering out and replacing sections of sidewalk in the area. Replacing corners with new access ramps that include pads of non-skid material. And a few of these sections have needed replacement since I moved out here five years ago.

Back to work with first cup of coffee to drink.

re: #40 Obdicut

Many people tend to react strongly to anything that has "IQ" and "race" within 10 meters of each other. Understandable, given history, but logically fallacious. Conclusions should not be predetermined, but rather should follow from evidence (the cautionary example is the right vis a vis AGW).

re: #46 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Many people tend to react strongly to anything that has "IQ" and "race" within 10 meters of each other. Understandable, given history, but logically fallacious. Conclusions should not be predetermined, but rather should follow from evidence (the cautionary example is the right vis a vis AGW).

Written IQ tests can give us insight into certain aspects of intelligence, and even how they relate to race.

But to come to the conclusion that "relative scores on written IQ test = relative intelligence" requires a major leap of faith based on a predermined conclusion that certain groups are "more intelligent" than other groups and that this is genetically determined.

LGF Irrelevance Watch -- ABL picked up the knockout page by Gus about John O'Sullivan:

The National Review Racist Firesale, John O’Sullivan Edition

re: #47 Expand Your Ground

Again, it all depends on evidence. At present there seems to be no evidence that the intelligence differential is genetically determined, and it's not a necessary state of affairs, but rather a contingent one (i.e. it is in principle possible for intelligence differential to be genetic, it just doesn't seem to be the case).

re: #49 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Again, it all depends on evidence. At present there seems to be no evidence that the intelligence differential is genetically determined, and it's not a necessary state of affairs, but rather a contingent one (i.e. it is in principle possible for intelligence differential to be genetic, it just doesn't seem to be the case).

Evidence. Some kinds of evidence are easy to gather, like test scores. The analogy from sports is that it is easy to measure how far and fast someone can run, jump or throw a javelin/discus/shotput, how do you assess an individual's skill at a team sport?

#Breivik "Anyone could do what I did"; "Not everyone is born with a backbone but you can develop one" - via @matthewwprice

— BBC Breaking News (@BBCBreaking) April 18, 2012

re: #49 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

In some ways it's trivially obvious that there's a genetic component to intelligence; I am more intelligent than a rabbit, and part of that is because i have genes that code a different brain than that of the rabbit.

But that's just trivially true. It doesn't get into the main issue that confounds racists whenever they start talking about genes determining anything; the difference between genotype and phenotype.

Something cited by racists or those who aren't racist but simply don't understand genetics is the lung capacity of the people indigenous to the Andes mountains. However, the actual science of it shows that it is a difficult, fascinating, and frustrating task to actually determine what portion of the Andes mountainer's lung capacity is because of the expression of alleles that contribute to lung capacity, and what proportion is adaptation from birth, the body responding to the environment while developing (and potentially even effects in utero).

[Link: jeb.biologists.org...]

The paper also makes the very good point that people often think of genetic differences as being present or absent, when usually the case would be that they are simply being expressed at different frequencies; even if it were eventually shown that the Andes mountainer's lung capacity was highly related to the expression of certain alleles, it is very unlikely that those alleles would be spontaneous mutations in the population, and more likely that they'd be pre-existing in all human populations at very low rates, then selected for in the environment.

re: #52 Obdicut

One gripe though: one must distinguish between a genetic component of intelligence (which is an established fact; individuals are not genetic blank slates) and the genetic origin of the group differences (which is not proven).

re: #52 Obdicut

And cultural aspects: if you are raised in a cultural environment that places a lot of value on doing well on written test scores, then you learn to do well on them. If you are raised in a culture where you see tests as irrelevant or without benefit to you do not make the effort to test out well.

It was interesting to read that among inner-city children, black males were the ones most likely not to appear to take the test at all. Which totally skewers any results one might try to derive from them. Do they get a zero for missing the test or a 100 for being intelligent enough to know that it does not matter?

re: #53 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Oh, absolutely. Even defining what the hell you mean by a 'group' in genetic terms is incredibly fraught. There's no genetic definition of 'race' that isn't massively problematic; if you define it as having certain genes or alleles, then lots of people you'd assume would be of that 'race' wouldn't be, if they happen to be missing those. If you define it as just the incidence and probability of having those alleles or genes in a group, then it really doesn't apply to individuals at all.

re: #54 Expand Your Ground

And even on very high-level tests, there's weird bias and mistakes. I helped my wife study for the MCAT, and many of the reading comprehension sections were fascinating in their weirdness. They very often included one of two types:

1. Articles that were very badly written or making a terrible logical argument.

2. Articles that were quite well written, making good arguments, but had large portions of them excised.

The testing on these articles was NOT to recognize or examine the flaws, but instead simply to be able to recognize the author's main arguments, even in the midst of either their terrible logic or missing parts.

My wife got very frustrated by this, since what she 'wanted' to talk about in terms of the articles was what they were getting wrong, but the test required her to hold back and only analyze the argument, to put herself in the author's shoes. It is, indeed, a necessary skill to be able to do that, and I understand why they test for it, but the test does not at all separate those who read logically faulty arguments and are convinced by them from those who read the arguments and can tear them apart.

re: #55 Obdicut

To put this another way: Cystic fibrosis is a lot more common in Ashkenazi Jews than it is in African-Americans. But that says absolutely nothing about an Ashkenazi Jew who doesn't have that gene. It's an observably true fact about a 'race' that says nothing about any individual in that race, except to make a guess at the probability that something affects them.

And if an Ashekenazi Jew has cystic fibrosis, in many ways he is more 'similar', phenotypically, to all others with cystic fibrosis, whatever their 'race' than he is to those of his own 'race'. It's a highly defining characteristic.

And with that, I now I have to go figure out what the latest hash my producer has made of my scripts is.

re: #57 Obdicut

And with that, I now I have to go figure out what the latest hash my producer has made of my scripts is.

Talk about intelligence! //

Palma de Majorca remains one of my favorite med ports. So beautiful.

Also, Good Morning Honcos.

re: #59 Darth Vader Gargoyle

I always wake up with a morning honco.

/couldn't resist.

re: #60 Obdicut

I always wake up with a morning honco.

/couldn't resist.

If it lasts more than 4 hours, consult a physician!
//

re: #60 Obdicut

I always wake up with a morning honco.

/couldn't resist.

Image: demotivational-poster-26136.jpg

Once again: forensics is not a magic word.

Women in red a real turn off

Popular perception equates red with women's sexual allure, but the colour may actually act as a turn-off for most males, says a study. Sarah E. Johns, evolutionary anthropologist at the University of Kent, who led the study, said: "Our results really challenge the commonly held view that the colour red promotes sexual attractiveness by acting as a proxy for female genital colour."

"However, we found that men showed a strong aversion to redder female genitals. Our study shows that the myth of red as a proxy for female genital colour should be abandoned," said Johns, the journal Public Library of Science ONE reports.

"This view must be replaced by careful examination of precisely what the colour red, in clothing, makeup, and other contexts, is actually signalling to men. What it isn't signalling is female sexual arousal," added Johns, according to a Kent statement.

A team from Kent's School of Anthropology and Conservation including Lucy A. Hargrave and Nicholas E. Newton-Fisher, generated 16 images of female genitalia by manipulating four photographs of the human vulva to produce four subtle, yet different, colour conditions ranging from pale pink to red.

These images were then presented to 40 heterosexual males with varying levels of sexual experiences who were asked to rate the sexual attractiveness of each image.

The results showed that the men rated the reddest shade significantly less attractive than the three pink shades, among which there were no significant differences in rated attractiveness.

SCIENCE!!

re: #64 freetoken

Women in red a real turn off

SCIENCE!!

anecdotal evidence

blonde with bright red lipstick: no big deal
brunette with bright red lipstick: I'm in love

From the actual paper:

[...]

We generated 16 images of female genitalia by manipulating four individual photographs of the human female vulva, such that we had four colour conditions for four different base images. We used colours within the normal range expected for human genitalia, a gradation of increasing redness starting from a pale pink. This was done to prevent any aversion in our participants (described below) to ‘unnatural’ images [26]: for instance, some NHP studies of genital colour preference have contrasted red with anatomically atypical block colours (e.g. green, purple, orange) [25].

Explicit images of anatomically normal, un-retouched, non-pornographic, similarly-orientated female genitals were surprisingly difficult to obtain, and the number of images used in the experiment reflects this difficulty. We obtained the photographs from a female genital image comparison website (www.vulvavelvet.org), the purpose of which is to inform and educate the public about natural variation in human female genitalia, and to make women feel comfortable with their bodies. Women, over the age of 18, anonymously donate images of their genitals to this website, placing them in the public domain. [...]

Don't ya just love anthropology?

re: #64 freetoken

re: #65 Expand Your Ground

re: #67 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Oops, reload. I set the start marker wrong.

Morning Peeps.

re: #69 RogueOne

Morning Peeps.

Хэллоу.

I could be wrong, but I think it's morning again.

ugh

re: #71 ggt

I could be wrong, but I think it's morning again.

ugh

I'm having a hard time telling right now in any case. Goofed up sleep cycles from working this shift including afternoon naps. So the sun comes up mid-work shift, and goes down right after I wake up from a nap.

Time for another cup of coffee.

re: #22 Expand Your Ground

Wild, wild West:

"There is a very thin line between communism, progressivism, Marxism, Socialism ... it's about nationalizing production, it's about creating and expanding the welfare state. It's about this idea of social and economic justice," said the retired military officer.

In other words "I don't really understand any of them, but I know they are bad because they are different from my ideas".

Allen West?

re: #63 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Once again: forensics is not a magic word.

I read the previous story:
Convicted defendants left uninformed of forensic flaws found by Justice Dept.
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

The whole article is maddening but it boils down to...

As a result, hundreds of defendants nationwide remain in prison or on parole for crimes that might merit exoneration, a retrial or a retesting of evidence using DNA because FBI hair and fiber experts may have misidentified them as suspects.

In one Texas case, Benjamin Herbert Boyle was executed in 1997, more than a year after the Justice Department began its review. Boyle would not have been eligible for the death penalty without the FBI’s flawed work, according to a prosecutor’s memo.

The case of a Maryland man serving a life sentence for a 1981 double killing is another in which federal and local law enforcement officials knew of forensic problems but never told the defendant. Attorneys for the man, John Norman Huffington, say they learned of potentially exculpatory Justice Department findings from The Washington Post. They are seeking a new trial.

Justice Department officials said that they met their legal and constitutional obligations when they learned of specific errors, that they alerted prosecutors and were not required to inform defendants directly.

re: #74 RogueOne

There you go. That's what allowing death penalty brings.

re: #72 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

I'm having a hard time telling right now in any case. Goofed up sleep cycles from working this shift including afternoon naps. So the sun comes up mid-work shift, and goes down right after I wake up from a nap.

Time for another cup of coffee.

I have messed-up sleep cycles from hormones. Add to that my recent travels to the Pacific and I might as well go back to being an infant.

re: #73 ggt

Allen West?

Yes, he is just doubling down on his ridiculous "dozens of Democrats are card-carrying Communist" statement.

But Rick Santorum and John Kyl have already set the standard: what they "feel in their hearts" is true.

I am beginning to think it's going to take another 10+ years for the majority of the population to lose their "red scare.". The younger generation has no memory.

word for the day

gloze

re: #78 ggt

I am beginning to think it's going to take another 10+ years for the majority of the population to lose their "red scare.". The younger generation has no memory.

They also have no clue. As does Alan West.

ooooh! Hope all goes well with this.

re: #55 Obdicut

Oh, absolutely. Even defining what the hell you mean by a 'group' in genetic terms is incredibly fraught. There's no genetic definition of 'race' that isn't massively problematic; if you define it as having certain genes or alleles, then lots of people you'd assume would be of that 'race' wouldn't be, if they happen to be missing those. If you define it as just the incidence and probability of having those alleles or genes in a group, then it really doesn't apply to individuals at all.

The working definition of race in America is: "When we picked cotton by hand, were your folks more likely in the field or on the porch?" There are very few people in America all of whose genes arrived below-decks of a slave ship. Without a statistically sane way to define and separate black, white, native test subject genetics the research is bogus. That galleon has sailed.

re: #78 ggt

I am beginning to think it's going to take another 10+ years for the majority of the population to lose their "red scare.". The younger generation has no memory.

Nope. The Chinese will continue to be played up as the next big threat, so the "commie" label is going to hang around for a while still.

re: #66 freetoken

From the actual paper:

Don't ya just love anthropology?

Damn. And I spent all my time on the Medicine Dances.

I think I ask this about once a year and I don't know why I can't remember.

What is the word for the lava flow from a volcano after it picks-up debris and because of inertia keeps moving/destroying everything in it's path?

It's a hawaiian word, I believe.

re: #85 ggt

ʻAʻā

ʻAʻā (also spelled aa, aʻa, ʻaʻa, and a-aa; /ˈɑː.ɑː/ or /ˈɑːʔɑː/, from Hawaiian [ʔəˈʔaː][6] meaning "stony rough lava", but also to "burn" or "blaze") is one of three basic types of flow lava. ʻAʻā is basaltic lava characterized by a rough or rubbly surface composed of broken lava blocks called clinker. The Hawaiian word was introduced as a technical term in geology by Clarence Dutton.[7]

re: #85 ggt

I think I ask this about once a year and I don't know why I can't remember.

What is the word for the lava flow from a volcano after it picks-up debris and because of inertia keeps moving/destroying everything in it's path?

It's a hawaiian word, I believe.

Might be thinking of 'pyroclastic flow", but that includes a lot of hot mud and gases. It's what got Pompeii.

re: #87 Decatur Deb

'pyroclastic flow"

Not very Hawaiian-sounding ;)

re: #88 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Not very Hawaiian-sounding ;)

It's from the Greek part of Hawaii.

re: #6 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
So many words!

re: #90 Tommy's cone of shame

So many words!

Also, nobody told me there would be math!

Or marginally related (but it's a lava flow), but if you're ever up in Central Oregon this is actually a nice place to go hiking on a lava flow.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Hint: Don't go in the afternoon! ;)

actually, I'm trying to find the video I saw on one of the Cable channels years ago --when Discovery actually was worth watching. It showed a highway overpass being just taken away by the flow from Mount St. Helens. There was everything in the flow--houses, cars, street lights . . . .

This guy was standing on the side of the overpass videoing it.

Freaky, majorly freaky.

re: #86 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

no, but thanks.

re: #75 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

There you go. That's what allowing death penalty brings.

They should have put off his execution until after the study was completed. OTOH,
I can't seem to find the prosecutors memo they mention but I've read his appeal and Boyle was guilty. 1. There was more evidence than just the hair the FBI tested. 2. There were witnesses who saw her take off with him and gave a description of his truck 3. Even Boyle's family wanted him to hang and testified against him. 4. He was a member of the Aryan Brotherhood and a violent rapist with previous convictions.

I used to keep a notebook of words --then I misplaced it and started another.

No clue where either are now.

re: #93 ggt

actually, I'm trying to find the video I saw on one of the Cable channels years ago --when Discovery actually was worth watching. It showed a highway overpass being just taken away by the flow from Mount St. Helens. There was everything in the flow--houses, cars, street lights . . .

This guy was standing on the side of the overpass videoing it.

Freaky, majorly freaky.

That sounds more like a volcanic ash based mud flow in a creek or river. A pyroclastic flow is a lot faster, broader, and something that is probably too dangerous to just stand off to the side to film.

re: #93 ggt

actually, I'm trying to find the video I saw on one of the Cable channels years ago --when Discovery actually was worth watching. It showed a highway overpass being just taken away by the flow from Mount St. Helens. There was everything in the flow--houses, cars, street lights . . .

This guy was standing on the side of the overpass videoing it.

Freaky, majorly freaky.

Yeah--that's the 'pyroclastic' part. The Hawaiian (I think) describes slow-moving/relentless movement. The stuff you describe is very high-speed.

re: #45 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Those pads are audible sidewalks for the blind.

re: #93 ggt

actually, I'm trying to find the video I saw on one of the Cable channels years ago --when Discovery actually was worth watching. It showed a highway overpass being just taken away by the flow from Mount St. Helens. There was everything in the flow--houses, cars, street lights . . .

This guy was standing on the side of the overpass videoing it.

Freaky, majorly freaky.

That was a Lahar. St. Helens was surrounded by large glaciers when it blew, they liquified and mixed with the ash and dirt.

re: #100 goddamnedfrank

That was a Lahar. St. Helens was surrounded by large glaciers when it blew, they liquified and mixed with the ash and dirt.

Winner.

re: #95 RogueOne

Oh, doesn't matter in the least. So next time someone will be convicted just on "forensics".

In any case, witnesses can also be flawed. Maybe he was guilty, but if not , there is nothing to turn things back. Which is a simple argument for why there should be no DP.

re: #100 goddamnedfrank

That was a Lahar. St. Helens was surrounded by large glaciers when it blew, they liquified and mixed with the ash and dirt.

This might be it.

re: #102 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

The victim (tortured, raped and murdered) told people to write down the truck ID just in case anything happened. I'm not 100% opposed to the DP. Boyle is one of those people that, IMO, couldn't have been killed too quickly. As a matter-of-fact, his crime is one of those that I think warrants being killed twice....

The school teacher killed a couple weeks ago did the same thing, called a friend and told him where she was going just "in case anything happens". If you feel the necessity to do that before going with someone... I would hope people would trust their judgement a little more.

re: #104 RogueOne

Special pleading is futile. Leave the door open for the death penalty, and it will inevitably be used in cases where the evidence isn't as strong.

This is really obvious logic.

re: #104 RogueOne

Sorry, I don't understand how someone can be pro-DP when judicial mistakes demonstrably happen. Unless one consciously decides that it's better for a few innocents to fry than for a few criminals escape death (and get life sentence). I would think basic justice demands prohibition of such an unnecessary procedure.

Lahar kinda sounds hawaiian --no?

re: #107 ggt

Lahar kinda sounds hawaiian --no?

or Kenyan...

re: #107 ggt

Lahar kinda sounds hawaiian --no?

Javanese.
;)

re: #107 ggt

Lahar kinda sounds hawaiian --no?

Your link says Indonesian. Warm, wet and surrounded by water, anyways.

re: #110 Decatur Deb

Your link says Indonesian. Warm, wet and surrounded by water, anyways.

I know :)

re: #109 Varek Raith

Javanese.
;)

coffee?

re: #112 ggt

coffee?

Yes please.

That was a trap.

re: #113 Varek Raith

Yes please.

just for you!

re: #106 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Sorry, I don't understand how someone can be pro-DP when judicial mistakes demonstrably happen. Unless one consciously decides that it's better for a few innocents to fry than for a few criminals escape death (and get life sentence). I would think basic justice demands prohibition of such an unnecessary procedure.

Mistakes can, have, and will be made. Does that mean we shouldn't incarcerate anyone and deprive them of their "life, liberty, and property"? I think that standard is too high and that some people commit crimes heinous enough (torture, rape, and murder) to warrant a needle. If we are sure the process is fair, and we know the defendant is absolutely guilty, I have zero problem removing those people from the planet.

The answer to "mistakes can be made" is to minimize and correct the mistakes, not withhold punishment. The KSM trial is about to start, should the DP be removed for people like him?

re: #115 ggt

just for you!

Omnomnom

The death penalty is the easy way out.
As they are dead. Worm food. Future zombies. No burning in mythical places for all eternity. Dead.
I'd much rather they spend the rest of their lives in jail.

re: #116 RogueOne

Mistakes can, have, and will be made. Does that mean we shouldn't incarcerate anyone and deprive them of their "life, liberty, and property"? I think that standard is too high and that some people commit crimes heinous enough (torture, rape, and murder) to warrant a needle. If we are sure the process is fair, and we know the defendant is absolutely guilty, I have zero problem removing those people from the planet.

The answer to "mistakes can be made" is to minimize and correct the mistakes, not withhold punishment. The KSM trial is about to start, should the DP be removed for people like him?

I agree, there are monsters --Brevik being the one most on my mind. I don't understand why Society should be expected to use resources to keep him alive.

With that said. Way too much money is spent on DP cases in appeal, etc. We might be better off spending that money on EDUCATION AND CONTRACEPTION. add in Mental Health Treatment.

I am am broken record on this.

re: #116 RogueOne

Mistakes can, have, and will be made. Does that mean we shouldn't incarcerate anyone and deprive them of their "life, liberty, and property"?

No analogy.

I think that standard is too high and that some people commit crimes heinous enough (torture, rape, and murder) to warrant a needle.

Oh, absolutely. They deserve it. They just should never get it for one simple reason explained above.

If we are sure the process is fair, and we know the defendant is absolutely guilty, I have zero problem removing those people from the planet.

Well, as long as you agree that those who are not absolutely guilty walk free. Otherwise you're introducing an incoherent notion of "not absolutely guilty but will stay in prison".

The answer to "mistakes can be made" is to minimize and correct the mistakes, not withhold punishment. The KSM trial is about to start, should the DP be removed for people like him?

Of course.

re: #109 Varek Raith

Javanese.
;)

I'd be curious if it translates as a local Javanese of "Oh Shit!". But probably just something like "mud of urban renewal".

re: #121 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

I'd be curious if it translates as a local Javanese of "Oh Shit!". But probably just something like "mud of urban renewal".

berlahar
[kata dasar / root word: lahar] expel lava; spout
(kata umum - common word)

re: #118 Varek Raith

The death penalty is the easy way out.
As they are dead. Worm food. Future zombies. No burning in mythical places for all eternity. Dead.
I'd much rather the spend the rest of their lives in jail.

'Zactly. Let the true villains rot. The erroneous life sentence has one outstanding virtue--reversibility.

re: #123 Decatur Deb

'Zactly. Let the true villains rot. The erroneous life sentence has one outstanding virtue--reversibility.

As simple as that.

re: #116 RogueOne

There's no coherent way of categorizing 'people like him', or setting a standard of evidence where we're 'really, really sure' of the guilt of someone, so that we could employ the death penalty.

Special pleading is never going to make it so. History shows us, over and over and over, that where there is the death penalty, it gets misapplied.

If we were all perfect beings, we could use the death penalty, but then again, we wouldn't have to.

re: #123 Decatur Deb

'Zactly. Let the true villains rot. The erroneous life sentence has one outstanding virtue--reversibility.

For me it's a resources issue. As it is, it costs more to kill them to keep them for life in prison --because of legal BS and such. Last I heard anyway.

re: #120 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Of course.

Basically that's what our difference boils down to, you don't believe the DP is ever warranted and I believe there are crimes that almost demand it.

I am not now, nor have I ever been, a pro-lifer....////

Anyone seen FBV or Reine lately?

re: #127 RogueOne

No, that's not the difference at all. it's not what the crimes demand, it's about our ability to apply the death penalty justly.

You really not getting that part of it?

re: #127 RogueOne

Basically that's what our difference boils down to, you don't believe the DP is ever warranted and I believe there are crimes that almost demand it.

I am not now, nor have I ever been, a pro-lifer...///

I see no benefit to Society to keep Charlie Manson alive.

sorry, I just don't.

Prison sentence = reversible, necessary.
Death sentence = irreversible, unnecessary.

re: #128 Varek Raith

FBV poked his head in to say he's taking some 'me' time to improve himself as a person, a husband, a friend. Which is very cool of him to do.

Reine posted a page about her glass stuff a little while ago, and another one a little while ago.

re: #123 Decatur Deb

'Zactly. Let the true villains rot. The erroneous life sentence has one outstanding virtue--reversibility.

I think some crimes are too heinous to allow someone to sit around all day breathing. If someone rapes/tortures and murders someone they've lost their right to fresh air.

re: #128 Varek Raith

Anyone seen FBV or Reine lately?

FBV was around last week.

re: #130 ggt

I see no benefit to Society to keep Charlie Manson alive.

sorry, I just don't.

He has more deterrent value, if you believe in it, than Gary Gilmore.

re: #132 Obdicut

FBV poked his head in to say he's taking some 'me' time to improve himself as a person, a husband, a friend. Which is very cool of him to do.

Reine posted a page about her glass stuff a little while ago, and another one a little while ago.

Ah, ok.

Well, hi guy/gal!

re: #127 RogueOne

Basically that's what our difference boils down to, you don't believe the DP is never warranted and I believe there are crimes that almost demand it.

I am not now, nor have I ever been, a pro-lifer...///

Actually, I explained in the comments that you snipped that my position is the opposite of what you state here. I don't know why you need to distort my position.

re: #128 Varek Raith

Anyone seen FBV or Reine lately?

I think FBV dropped a few comments in a couple of days ago. Don't recall seeing any Reine comments in the past few weeks. But given travel and recent work schedule that's not surprising to me since I'm on during "slow time" a lot.

re: #130 ggt

That's not the point. The benefit to society isn't keeping Manson alive, it's keeping someone else alive where the evidence really seemed strong that they'd committed the murder, but it turns out later someone else did.

Any case made on the back of an individual isn't applicable; the law has to apply to everyone.

re: #131 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Prison sentence = reversible, necessary.
Death sentence = irreversible, unnecessary.

Couple that with a system that "rewards" DA's for getting the most DP convictions (remember the applause that Rick Perry garnered for his Texas "record") and you all but ensure that there will be a lot of erroneous convictions.

re: #128 Varek Raith

Anyone seen FBV or Reine lately?

FBV yes, Reine ... earlier than FBV.

re: #116 RogueOne

Mistakes can, have, and will be made. Does that mean we shouldn't incarcerate anyone and deprive them of their "life, liberty, and property"? I think that standard is too high and that some people commit crimes heinous enough (torture, rape, and murder) to warrant a needle. If we are sure the process is fair, and we know the defendant is absolutely guilty, I have zero problem removing those people from the planet.

The answer to "mistakes can be made" is to minimize and correct the mistakes, not withhold punishment. The KSM trial is about to start, should the DP be removed for people like him?

Well, "mistakes can be made" means to me that when discovered attempts at correction should be made as when the mistakes are discovered.

To the best of my knowledge, wrongful death is not correctable.

re: #133 RogueOne

I think some crimes are too heinous to allow someone to sit around all day breathing. If someone rapes/tortures and murders someone they've lost their right to fresh air.

Not at the expense of possible innocents being executed. It's not rocket surgery.

re: #129 Obdicut

No, that's not the difference at all. it's not what the crimes demand, it's about our ability to apply the death penalty justly.

You really not getting that part of it?

I am getting it. I think it can be applied correctly. (I think it was applied correctly in the Boyle case.) Not every DP case is questionable.

re: #133 RogueOne

I think some crimes are too heinous to allow someone to sit around all day breathing. If someone rapes/tortures and murders someone they've lost their right to fresh air.

Yeah, but the cost is the issue.

We know without a doubt Brevik, Manson, and others are guilty. But it will cost more to kill them to keep them alive.

Perhaps if Death Penalty cases were moved to the Federal Level. I wouldn't mind if all Murder became a Federal Crime. The States seem to have too many differences in carrying out justice.

Add to that Child Rape --but the Supreme Court rather ruined it a while back.

re: #143 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Not at the expense of possible innocents being executed. It's not rocket surgery.

Don't give Varek any ideas!

re: #133 RogueOne

I think some crimes are too heinous to allow someone to sit around all day breathing. If someone rapes/tortures and murders someone they've lost their right to fresh air.

I take anti-DP as a default. There are executions I don't weep over.

re: #146 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Don't give Varek any ideas!

Rocket propelled scalpels...
...
..
.
BRILLIANT!

re: #144 RogueOne

I am getting it. I think it can be applied correctly. (I think it was applied correctly in the Boyle case.) Not every DP case is questionable.

Dude, what the fuck? Once again, I'm left wondering if your'e being serious or just fucking up on purpose.

It's not about whether it can be applied correctly in individual cases. It's whether it can be applied correctly as a policy. And history clearly, clearly shows that it can't.

re: #144 RogueOne

I am getting it. I think it can be applied correctly. (I think it was applied correctly in the Boyle case.) Not every DP case is questionable.

Do you agree that as long as the DP case is questionable, the person should walk free? Remember, its either guilty or not guilty.

re: #147 Decatur Deb

I take anti-DP as a default. There are executions I don't weep over.

Exactly. If one vicious savage asshole neo-Nazi murderer kills another vicious neo-Nazi murderer to get his Hitler memorabilia collection, I'm really not sorry that the guy died. I still want the murderer prosecuted.

The fitness of the person for death has nothing to do with the ability of society to justly apply that death penalty.

re: #150 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Do you agree that as long as the DP case is questionable, the person should walk free? Remember, its either guilty or not guilty.

What happened to life without parole?

re: #145 ggt

Yeah, but the cost is the issue.
...

That's one argument I don't buy. I understand the morality argument against the DP but, IMO, the cost shouldn't be a factor.

Note, please, that "beyond a reasonable doubt" is not "absolutely certain."

re: #152 Expand Your Ground

What happened to life without parole?

If he did it, he deserves DP, right?

re: #145 ggt

Yeah, but the cost is the issue.

As the military is discovering now that medical and surgical advances mean that more wounded GI's are surviving combat. It was cheaper for them just to pay off the families and be shut of them, now they have life-long medical consditions to pay for...

re: #155 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

If he did it, he deserves DP, right?

I am coming in here against DP. And SYG.

re: #153 RogueOne

That's one argument I don't buy. I understand the morality argument against the DP but, IMO, the cost shouldn't be a factor.

I need to base policy decisions on that which can be measured --just me.

Morality can't be measured, resources and the cost to society can be.

It makes no sense to choose DP over Life in Prison when both remove the person from Society --if DP costs many times more money than Life in Prison.

Society is safe from the person either way.

I really can't stand that we are (people of California?) are paying to feed Manson, but it is cheaper to do so than to kill him.

re: #149 Obdicut

Dude, what the fuck? Once again, I'm left wondering if your'e being serious or just fucking up on purpose.

It's not about whether it can be applied correctly in individual cases. It's whether it can be applied correctly as a policy. And history clearly, clearly shows that it can't.

And, as you just said, it can be applied correctly. Seems to me we agree on 2 of the 3 issues. 1. It can be misapplied and mistakes can be made. 2. It can be applied correctly in individual cases. Where we disagree is in how we deal with the uncertainty.

re: #156 Expand Your Ground

As the military is discovering now that medical and surgical advances mean that more wounded GI's are surviving combat. It was cheaper for them just to pay off the families and be shut of them, now they have life-long medical consditions to pay for...

different argument -- we are talking heinous crime.

For what it's worth, if I were to agree with the DP I'd not use "heinous" as the measure. There are some things for which heinous is in the eye of the beholder.

I lean more toward using it for repeat/serial offenders of the crimes of murder and rape, if at all.

re: #157 Expand Your Ground

I understand that, but you asked a question.

There is no third position in the scheme that Rogue proposes. In any Heinous Atrocity case there is either absolute certainty (and the accused gets DP); or he walks free, because if there is doubt about his guilt - well, he should not be in prison if there is doubt, right?

re: #161 kirkspencer

For what it's worth, if I were to agree with the DP I'd not use "heinous" as the measure. There are some things for which heinous is in the eye of the beholder.

I lean more toward using it for repeat/serial offenders of the crimes of murder and rape, if at all.

true, was just trying to distinguish the argument.

re: #159 RogueOne

And, as you just said, it can be applied correctly

Nope. You're either just not paying any attention or deliberately distorting what I'm saying. Any individual application doesn't matter. We're discussing the policy.

. Seems to me we agree on 2 of the 3 issues. 1. It can be misapplied and mistakes can be made. 2. It can be applied correctly in individual cases. Where we disagree is in how we deal with the uncertainty.

Nope. I'm saying it will always inevitably result in the death of innocent people. Unless you're saying you're peachy with that.

re: #161 kirkspencer

For what it's worth, if I were to agree with the DP I'd not use "heinous" as the measure. There are some things for which heinous is in the eye of the beholder.

I lean more toward using it for repeat/serial offenders of the crimes of murder and rape, if at all.

This. I can't think of a much more heinous crime than Rape/Torture/Murder.

re: #165 RogueOne

This. I can't think of a much more heinous crime than Rape/Torture/Murder.

And one can be sentenced for rape/torture/murder mistakenly.

There is the whole "deterrence" issue, and I guess there are people who are willing to accept the occasional false conviction (and execution) in order to retain the deterrent factor....

The process can be fair, there may be witnesses + forensics, and in the end it can still be a mistake.

re: #165 RogueOne

This. I can't think of a much more heinous crime than Rape/Torture/Murder.

Even that gets squirrely. Some crimes are so heinous that the very act calls sanity into question. Rule one is just to get them out of play.

*opens door; yawns; starts to wave hi, but then sees...death penalty argument at 8:00am—rape, murder, torture, terrorists...mutters to self, "wayyy too flippin' early for this, I should know better"...rubs eyes...closes door & stumbles towards kitchen in search of coffee...*

re: #166 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

And one can be sentenced for rape/torture/murder mistakenly.

and, in this case, he wasn't. I think a base standard of "no DP because mistakes can be made" is too simplistic. These decisions should be based on the individual cases.

re: #168 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

And deliberate distortions of justice by police, prosecutors, judges, witness, or others.

Is the purpose of our justice system to

1) keep society safe from bad people

or

2) punish bad people?

and for the record I didn't hijack the thread and turn it into a DP argument...that was sergey's fault!//

re: #171 RogueOne

So you're okay with innocent people being put to death by the state using the death penalty? Because it's inevitable that it will happen.

re: #170 CuriousLurker

*opens door; yawns; starts to wave hi, but then sees...death penalty argument at 8:00am—rape, murder, torture, terrorists...mutters to self, "wayyy too flippin' early for this, I should know better"...rubs eyes...closes door & stumbles towards kitchen in search of coffee...*

rape, murder, it's just a shot away...

re: #171 RogueOne

and, in this case, he wasn't. I think a base standard of "no DP because mistakes can be made" is too simplistic. These decisions should be based on the individual cases.

I think that is the gist of the issue.

IT is approached from different angles by people at all levels.

re: #167 Expand Your Ground

There is the whole "deterrence" issue, and I guess there are people who are willing to accept the occasional false conviction (and execution) in order to retain the deterrent factor...

False convictions are inevitable, but they're unescapeable unless we abandon the whole system, and they're reversible (of course, one can't give back 'time', but there's nothing one can do about it; necessity overrides this consideration). There is nothing necessary about DP, even if one considers the deterrence factor, which is hardly proven.

re: #173 ggt

Is the purpose of our justice system to

1) keep society safe from bad people

or

2) punish bad people?

both plus the 3rd option, "Rehabilitation".

re: #179 RogueOne

both plus the 3rd option, "Rehabilitation".

2) with extreme prejudice. Preferably on the spot. Just ask Ted Nugent.

/

re: #171 RogueOne

and, in this case, he wasn't. I think a base standard of "no DP because mistakes can be made" is too simplistic. These decisions should be based on the individual cases.

They cannot be made on individual cases as a matter of policy.

re: #165 RogueOne

This. I can't think of a much more heinous crime than Rape/Torture/Murder.

And you completely missed the point of my argument.

I do not like the DP. I do not want it applied to "heinous" crime.

I do not like the DP because sometimes it is wrong. If I err in imprisoning, I can eventually release. I cannot resurrect the dead.

I do not like "heinous" as it is an emotional measure. At one time it was heinous for a black man to have sex, even if consensual, with a white woman. In the eyes of some, two men having sex is heinous.

If and only if I had no choice about the death penalty, I would use it NOT for rape or murder, but for cases where the rapist or murderer is a recidivist. A very large proportion of murders in prison are situational murderers; they are highly unlikely to repeat the crime. Rapists are far more likely to re-offend, but again there are some who do not repeat the crime once punished and sent through rehabilitation.

In essence, I would reserve the death penalty for those who cause ultimate harm to our society and who further demonstrate a willingness to continue despite attempts to correct the behavior.

And even then, only if we could be absolutely certain, 100%, that there was no hanky panky with the evidence or the jury selection or judicial bias or any of the other things that have been discovered in wrongful conviction cases.

Which means, again, that I do not support the death penalty.

re: #179 RogueOne

both plus the 3rd option, "Rehabilitation".

As I understand it, we aren't originally set-up for Rehabilitation.

The whole thing is a clusterfuck, IMHO. Every State has a different take on it and justice is not meted out evenly.

It is cheaper in the long-run to rehabilitate, but what about those that can't be rehabilitated?

EDUCATION, CONTRACEPTION AND MENTAL HEALTH TREATMENT

are my only answers.

re: #173 ggt

Is the purpose of our justice system to

1) keep society safe from bad people

or

2) punish bad people?

I'm for 1 far more than 2. And I want to add 3: Protect my rights if anything should happen to my ex-SIL.

re: #171 RogueOne

and, in this case, he wasn't. I think a base standard of "no DP because mistakes can be made" is too simplistic. These decisions should be based on the individual cases.

We have a system that all but rewards prosecutors for seeking and obtaining deapth penalty convictions. Unless we can rework the system to preclude that and ensure an almost superhuman form of justice, we will have false convictions.

re: #180 Expand Your Ground

2) with extreme prejudice. Preferably on the spot. Just ask Ted Nugent.

/

Rehabilitation with extreme prejudice....that's funny. OTOH, when we toss 18 yr old kids into prison for selling weed.....that's basically the system we have.

re: #170 CuriousLurker

*opens door; yawns; starts to wave hi, but then sees...death penalty argument at 8:00am—rape, murder, torture, terrorists...mutters to self, "wayyy too flippin' early for this, I should know better"...rubs eyes...closes door & stumbles towards kitchen in search of coffee...*

ooo... DP for theft of coffee before 9am in the morning?

re: #175 Obdicut

So you're okay with innocent people being put to death by the state using the death penalty? Because it's inevitable that it will happen.

And it's inevitable that really bad people will not be convicted and innocent people will be rape/tortured and killed by them.

Where do you draw the line in matter of policy?

re: #188 ggt

They will be killed by bad people, not by the state. It's not a matter of policy.

re: #189 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

They will be killed by bad people, not by the state. It's not a matter of policy.

Thus, individuals must be able to defend themselves.

The State cannot protect them from bad people.

I have a full day of driving people to the doctor and I have to get gas (and more coffee)

Have a great one all!

re: #182 kirkspencer

And you completely missed the point of my argument.

I do not like the DP. I do not want it applied to "heinous" crime.

I do not like the DP because sometimes it is wrong. If I err in imprisoning, I can eventually release. I cannot resurrect the dead.

I do not like "heinous" as it is an emotional measure. At one time it was heinous for a black man to have sex, even if consensual, with a white woman. In the eyes of some, two men having sex is heinous.

If and only if I had no choice about the death penalty, I would use it NOT for rape or murder, but for cases where the rapist or murderer is a recidivist. A very large proportion of murders in prison are situational murderers; they are highly unlikely to repeat the crime. Rapists are far more likely to re-offend, but again there are some who do not repeat the crime once punished and sent through rehabilitation.

In essence, I would reserve the death penalty for those who cause ultimate harm to our society and who further demonstrate a willingness to continue despite attempts to correct the behavior.

And even then, only if we could be absolutely certain, 100%, that there was no hanky panky with the evidence or the jury selection or judicial bias or any of the other things that have been discovered in wrongful conviction cases.

Which means, again, that I do not support the death penalty.

I don't think I missed the point of your argument. Not only did I get it, I'm 90% in agreement. Where we disagree, and why I pointed out the "heinous" portion, is because I don't believe there is any doubt that raping/torturing and then killing someone is "heinous".

What Rogue proposes is a perverted "justice" of double standards. Basically, if there's a video tape of murder, X should fry because there's an alleged "absolute certainty". If there isn't, but only witnesses, well, OK, just give him life. The problem being, X is either guilty or not in both cases, and there is no other standard but "beyond the reasonable doubt". There is no standard of "absolute certainty".

re: #188 ggt

And it's inevitable that really bad people will not be convicted and innocent people will be rape/tortured and killed by them.

I'm sorry, what does that have to do with the death penalty?

re: #193 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

You're almost dead on. (even though you phrased it with a tad too much snark//) I don't think expecting a higher standard for DP cases is a double standard. If we're going to take someones life we have an obligation to be absolutely certain and I think there are cases where that standard can be reached.

re: #195 RogueOne

You're almost dead on. (even though you phrased it with a tad too much snark//) I don't think expecting a higher standard for DP cases is a double standard. If we're going to take someones life we have an obligation to be absolutely certain and I think there are cases where that standard can be reached.

Alabama will be comfortable with its level of certainty well before Connecticut will.

re: #195 RogueOne

You're almost dead on. (even though you phrased it with a tad too much snark//) I don't think expecting a higher standard for DP cases is a double standard. If we're going to take someones life we have an obligation to be absolutely certain and I think there are cases where that standard can be reached.

The problem is that while I agree that it can be reached in some cases, there is simply no way to pinpoint which cases are those and to sort them out from all the other cases. For a very simple reason that there will be disagreements as to what constitues absolute certainty in each case. And once you leave this in the hands of the jury, it will be no different from normal DP cases: it will be abused and innocents will still die.

She tried to stop fellow officers from kicking the crap out of a mental patient....she must be nuts..

Bogota Officer May Be Fired For Stopping Beatdown
[Link: www.wpix.com...]

Plenty of cop "beat downs" can be found online, but how often does the officer who stops others from handing out the beating get fired for it? That's exactly what's happening to Officer Regina Tasca in the Bogota Police Department.

Tasca's dashboard camera captured her as she attempted to stop two officers from beating an emotionally disturbed young man. Just days after the incident, she was told she was being suspended with pay. A year later, her trial is about to begin as the Bogota PD seeks to fire her.
.....
"The next thing I know he asks me to turn over my weapon and be sent for a fitness for duty exam," she said.

Bogota PD, after hearing Tasca's story, believes she is psychologically incompetent to be a police officer, and she is being sent for testing. The Ridgefield Park Police officers seen tackling and punching an emotionally disturbed man waiting for an ambulance are never questioned. never interviewed by an Internal Affairs Investigator, and are still working the streets today.

Bogota Police chose to suspend Tasca, an 11-year veteran with numerous commendations. There are photographs from the hospital documenting the bruises on the 22-year-old's head, back, arms and wrists.

Tasca says the real reason she's being called out on these charges is she crossed the "blue line" by refusing to support another officer even when he used excessive force. The other problem? The Bogota Police Department is very small--fewer than 20 officers. And there, she is a definitive minority.

re: #183 ggt

As I understand it, we aren't originally set-up for Rehabilitation.

The whole thing is a clusterfuck, IMHO. Every State has a different take on it and justice is not meted out evenly.

It is cheaper in the long-run to rehabilitate, but what about those that can't be rehabilitated?

EDUCATION, CONTRACEPTION AND MENTAL HEALTH TREATMENT

are my only answers.

Actually, yes we were "originally" set up for rehab.

Skipping a lot of the side roads, the reason they're called penitentiaries is because they were supposed to be places for those who committed crimes to repent their sins. The whole idea of long-term imprisonment was actually meant to be a humane change to standard practices of death, mutilation, and impoverishment.

The theory was that separating these people would protect society from their depravities while and until they'd learned to be productive and contributing citizens. At the same time the separation would allow introspection without temptation.

Unfortunately, there is also a large portion of society that wants vengeance. This portion frequently wants not just an eye for an eye, but a pound of flesh in interest. This gets disguised as a valid point: that often the criminal must be punished so as to recognize the crime is wrong.

I've mentioned this other times we've gotten into this same argument, I'll mention it again.

According to what we know of how the mind works at this time, our whole criminal justice system is designed to increase, not decrease, crime over all.

We should have a sharp, significant, but SHORT punishment. We should follow that with rehab in a controlled environment that includes training for alternatives, followed by rehab in an uncontrolled environment (parole equivalent). We should have two levels of an extended separation policy (long-term imprisonment) only for those we cannot rehab, demonstrated by their repeated recidivism. the extreme is, basically, LWOP in prison. The other is - think half-way house based out of a prison.

It won't happen, not here, but it's what we should be aiming for based on what we know at this time.

re: #198 RogueOne

And you wish this rotten system to decide life and death.

re: #200 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

And you wish this rotten system to decide life and death.

sometimes.

re: #201 RogueOne

sometimes.

Then you will get innocent people dead "sometimes".

re: #192 RogueOne

I don't think I missed the point of your argument. Not only did I get it, I'm 90% in agreement. Where we disagree, and why I pointed out the "heinous" portion, is because I don't believe there is any doubt that raping/torturing and then killing someone is "heinous".

And the possibility of biased judges, cooked evidence from prosecutors, and/or terrible defense attorneys doesn't sway you? If convicted, he must be killed, so execute him?

Do you not read history? Do you not read the news? Or do you only see and hear what you wish to hear?

re: #203 kirkspencer

He's refused to engage with this point all thread, I doubt he's suddenly going to change his mind and actually deal with it now.

re: #200 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

And you wish this rotten system to decide life and death.

"The Equal Justice Initiative is an organization that provides legal representation to indigent defendants and prisoners who have been
denied fair and just treatment in the legal system.

The group contends that, from 2006 to 2010, state prosecutors in Dothan used peremptory strikes to exclude 82% of qualified black jurors in death-penalty cases. As a result, the jury in every death-penalty case in Houston County over this period has been all white or had only a single black juror despite the fact that the circuit is nearly 25% African-American. Equal Justice Initiative has also previously reported that Houston County has the highest per capita death sentencing rate in Alabama.

When asked about the lawsuit, Valeska reportedly brushed off the claims.

"I’m amazed that equal justice can issue press releases and send things out seeking pre-trial publicity before I have even been served,” said Valeska Wednesday, according to local news outlet WFSA 12. “I’m not surprised that they have done this.”

The suit was later dismissed.

[Link: www.bet.com...]

re: #203 kirkspencer

And the possibility of biased judges, cooked evidence from prosecutors, and/or terrible defense attorneys doesn't sway you? If convicted, he must be killed, so execute him?

Do you not read history? Do you not read the news? Or do you only see and hear what you wish to hear?

Yes, it does "sway me" hence my argument for a standard tougher than "beyond a reasonable doubt" for DP cases. I think the argument that mistakes "might" be made so we should never use the DP is simplistic. You stated above that there are situations where it's both warranted and justified. Where are you thinking we disagree?

re: #206 RogueOne

Yes, it does "sway me" hence my argument for a standard tougher than "beyond a reasonable doubt" for DP cases. I think the argument that mistakes "might" be made so we should never use the DP is simplistic. You stated above that there are situations where it's both warranted and justified. Where are you thinking we disagree?

You drag this red herring of a logic fail from comment to comment. It does not follow from "in specific cases we can be pretty certain" to "a standard can be formulated which will objectively sort out all such cases into one neat category".

Got to walk the dog during this break in the rain. We'll discuss Indonesian cuisine as we go. BBL

re: #207 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

You drag this red herring of a logic fail from comment to comment. It does not follow from "in specific cases we can be pretty certain" to "a standard can be formulated which will objectively sort out all such cases into one neat category".

The logic fail is the belief that if we can't be certain for everyone we can't be certain for anyone. The second logic fail is the belief in a need for a blanket policy instead of judging individuals on a case by case basis. That's why "we can't be 100% certain in every case therefore it shouldn't be used in any case" is a simplistic argument.

re: #209 RogueOne

The logic fail is the belief that if we can't be certain for everyone we can't be certain for anyone.

And this is a strawman of course, so the logic fail is yours. This is not what is being argued.

The second logic fail is the belief in a need for a blanket policy instead of judging individuals on a case by case basis.

And once you introduce this arbitrariness, without any blanket standard, you cannot prevent abuse and mistaken sentencing.

That's why "we can't be 100% certain in every case therefore it shouldn't be used in any case" is a simplistic argument.

Non sequitur.

Time for me to wrap it up and hit the road....Enjoy the day people!

We'll continue the DP argument (part 107) sometime soon.

re: #206 RogueOne

Yes, it does "sway me" hence my argument for a standard tougher than "beyond a reasonable doubt" for DP cases. I think the argument that mistakes "might" be made so we should never use the DP is simplistic. You stated above that there are situations where it's both warranted and justified. Where are you thinking we disagree?

We disagree that the argument mistakes "might" be made is simplistic.

Given sufficient cases, mistakes will be made. You cannot make a perfect system that involves people. There will be an error.

The issue, the question, then, is this. There will be an error that will result in a wrongful conviction. Therefore, is it better that all heinous offenders live forever separated from society so that we can rescue and recover that one mistake, or is it better to allow that one mistake to die so we can appropriately remove the guilty?

I repeat: I cannot resurrect the dead. I can remove a man (or woman) from prison. I choose to allow the possible.

re: #199 kirkspencer

Actually, yes we were "originally" set up for rehab.

[snip long explanation on theory and shortcomings of current justice and prison system]

It won't happen, not here, but it's what we should be aiming for based on what we know at this time.

Until they figure out how to make the "right" system politically and corporatively profitable of course.
/

re: #211 RogueOne

You haven't actually made an argument.

re: #214 Obdicut

The argument would be his exact method of achieveing absolute certainty without arintrariness and blanket standard. Which he cannot propose since no one can.

re: #215 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Well, yeah, I should have said he hasn't made an argument compatible with reality.

Romney Campaign: We Never Asked For Ted Nugent’s Endorsement

Contrary to reports from the time, the Romney campaign says it never sought the endorsement of conservative shock rocker Ted Nugent. On Tuesday, the Romney campagin distanced itself from Nugent’s incendiary speech at the NRA convention over the weekend. And on Wednesday, it went further, telling NBC News Romney “never solicited” the backing of Nugent, who has a long history of violent rhetoric toward Democrats.

re: #217 Lidane

Too bad they celebrated Nugent joining 'Team Mitt', then.

Ted Nugent endorsed my Dad today.Ted Nugent? How cool is that?! He joins Kid Rock as great Detroit musicians on team Mitt!

— Tagg Romney (@tromney) March 2, 2012

re: #218 Obdicut

Exactly. They wanted his endorsement and actively sought it. They bragged about it. Then Ted opened his pie hole, and now Team Romney is scrambling to say they never wanted his endorsement? Come on.

re: #219 Lidane

Exactly. They wanted his endorsement and actively sought it. They bragged about it. Then Ted opened his pie hole, and now Team Romney is scrambling to say they never wanted his endorsement? Come on.

Hurry & shake the etch-a-sketch! We have to change our mind!

re: #219 Lidane

They may not have actively sought it. That may be Nugent saying shit and people believing him. But they did celebrate that they got it. Of course, it's another family member, so Mitt may simply blame the error on his son and then get sanctimonious about anyone then 'attacking' his son.

re: #221 Obdicut

They may not have actively sought it. That may be Nugent saying shit and people believing him. But they did celebrate that they got it. Of course, it's another family member, so Mitt may simply blame the error on his son and then get sanctimonious about anyone then 'attacking' his son.

He has placed his sons in the fight. Getting him elected is how they serve their country. We should send a USO act.

Did Mileva Marić assist Einstein in writing his 1905 path breaking papers? [PDF]

re: #223 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Did Mileva Marić assist Einstein in writing his 1905 path breaking papers? [PDF]

That idea's been floated for a long time.

Who can say? She was a fully trained scientist, and he probably would have discussed his ideas with his wife.

re: #224 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Who can say?

I think this paper is quite convincing in that there is no evidence that she did, and what evidence there is indicates that she didn't.

re: #225 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

I think this paper is quite convincing in that there is no evidence that she did, and what evidence there is indicates that she didn't.

I dislike the fact that the article says that the divorce was "amiable." Oh no, it wasn't. He had to badger her into giving him a divorce so he could marry another woman.

However, her low scores would indicate that she simply wasn't, well, Einstein.

Charles gets a mention in comments at Harry's Place

armaros

The Secret Service is onto him.

[Link: nation.foxnews.com...]

But not the Panthers or Lord Nazir Ahmed …. of course…

Wow…Gilad Atzmon, Ted Nugent, Charlie Manson…there aren’t many musicians who go on to become threatening, terrorist entities…”

No but they can become seriously deranged morons who think they can play politics.

Cat Stevens should be added to the list and Charles Johnson.

I'm looking at Ioffe's article at [Link: ufn.ru...] and he indeed nowhere says that the papers were signed "Einstein-Marity". Sometimes "facts" are created out of whole cloth.

re: #226 Mostly sane, most of the time.

I dislike the fact that the article says that the divorce was "amiable."

But it doesn't say that. It actually refutes this claim, which is quoted from another article by someone insisting on Maric's collaboration.

re: #229 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

But it doesn't say that. It actually refutes this claim, which is quoted from another article by someone insisting on Maric's collaboration.

You are correct, that was a quote.

Wow, conservative whacko on CNN thinks there's going to be a goddamn race war. And that the media is trying to get it to happen. To help with Obama's re-election.

[Link: www.mediaite.com...]

re: #231 Obdicut

John Nolte's Newsbusters Neanderthal-looking pal.

Of course, every time I see Noel Sheppard I remember about this pic: Image: redneck_twins.jpg

Sorry for not reading more closely. I'm also scanning the news. I'm reading an article about how some moms can't afford to go to work because of day care costs.

I would have had to be making lots and lots of money to afford child care for five. Hollywood actress type money.

I can't stick around this morning, but I just saw these on Twitter regarding the Arab Spring. I always appreciate reading things about the ME that aren't filled with pearl-clutching & hyperventilation, so I figure some of you will also:

A new book by Robin Wright:

The Islamists Are Coming is the first book to survey the rise of Islamist groups in the wake of the Arab Spring. Often lumped together, the more than 50 Islamist parties with millions of followers now constitute a whole new spectrum—separate from either militants or secular parties. They will shape the new order in the world’s most volatile region more than any other political bloc. Yet they have diverse goals and different constituencies. Sometimes they are even rivals.

[Link: www.wilsoncenter.org...]

An article about Egypt:

Paradoxes of “religious freedom” in Egypt

The place of religion in the political order is arguably the most contentious issue in post-Mubarak Egypt. With Islamist-oriented parties controlling over 70 percent of seats in the new People’s Assembly and the constitution-writing process about to begin, liberals and leftists are apprehensive about the implications for Egyptian law and society, including the rights of Egypt’s millions of Coptic Christians.

Mindful of these anxieties and pragmatic in its approach, the Muslim Brotherhood’s Freedom and Justice Party (FJP) has backed away from earlier calls for an “Islamic state.” Its 2011 election platform opts instead to promote the sharia as a “frame of reference. ” Working hard to assuage anxieties both at home and abroad, the Party explicitly calls for a “civil state” and repeatedly stresses the importance of equality of citizenship among Muslims and Christians:

Egyptians, Muslims and Christians, are integral parts of the fabric of the one homeland, with equal rights and duties, and without distinction or discrimination, and all together they must remove the injustice inflicted upon them.

[...]

As benign as this aspect of the FJP platform may sound, provisions guaranteeing “special rights” for different religious communities often carry illiberal implications when codified as state law. But the presumed alternative—banishing religious law through strict secularism—is also not an unqualified good. It imposes restrictions on “religious freedom” in another way, by disempowering citizens from entering into legal arrangements inspired by their own religious commitments. This paradox of religious freedom—the difficulty of reconciling the individual’s right from religion, while providing for the right to religious law is a paradox rooted in the modern state’s capacity and proclivity to codify and monopolize law. And, ironically, it is not modern state law but the Islamic legal tradition itself that may point the way out of this impasse.

Read more...

Gotta run for now. Have a good morning, everyone.

re: #227 Stoatly

Charles gets a mention in comments at Harry's Place

armaros

...
Cat Stevens should be added to the list and Charles Johnson.

What the hell did Cat Stevens do? Just because he converted?

// Don't have to ask what Charles did.

re: #236 RayFerd

He said some pretty vile stuff awhile back.

Beautiful video!

re: #236 RayFerd

What the hell did Cat Stevens do? Just because he converted?

// Don't have to ask what Charles did.

He wanted Salman Rushdie killed for insulting Islam.

Good morning lizards from rainy central Virginia.

re: #239 Killgore Trout

He wanted Salman Rushdie killed for insulting Islam.

I can't stick around to argue today, nor am I going to launch some big defense of a man I've never met, so take it or leave it as you will:

Cat Stevens Breaks His Silence

The Rushdie fatwa incident seems to be accepted as fact here, despite the fact that no one seems able to cite your endorsement of it. How did this rumor start?

I'm very sad that this seems to be the No. 1 question people want to discuss. I had nothing to do with the issue other than what the media created. I was innocently drawn into the whole controversy. So, after many years, I'm glad at least now that I have been given the opportunity to explain to the public and fans my side of the story in my own words. At a lecture, back in 1989, I was asked a question about blasphemy according to Islamic Law, I simply repeated the legal view according to my limited knowledge of the Scriptural texts, based directly on historical commentaries of the Qur'an. The next day the newspaper headlines read, "Cat Says, Kill Rushdie." I was abhorred, but what could I do? I was a new Muslim. If you ask a Bible student to quote the legal punishment of a person who commits blasphemy in the Bible, he would be dishonest if he didn't mention Leviticus 24:16.

Full interview at Rolling Stone...

re: #241 CuriousLurker

Short version: Oooh baby baby, its a wild world...

re: #241 CuriousLurker

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Two months later Yusuf Islam appeared on a British television program, BBC's Hypotheticals, an occasional broadcast featuring a panel of notable guests to explore a hypothetical situation with moral, ethical and/or political dilemmas. In the episode ("A Satanic Scenario"), Islam had an exchange about the issue with the moderator and Queens Counsel Geoffrey Robertson.[5][6] Islam would later clarify the exchanges as "stupid and offensive jokes" made "in bad taste", but "part of a well-known British national trait ... dry humour on my part."[1]

Robertson: You don't think that this man deserves to die?
Y. Islam: Who, Salman Rushdie?
Robertson: Yes.
Y. Islam: Yes, yes.
Robertson: And do you have a duty to be his executioner?
Y. Islam: Uh, no, not necessarily, unless we were in an Islamic state and I was ordered by a judge or by the authority to carry out such an act - perhaps, yes.
[Some minutes later, Robertson on the subject of a protest where an effigy of the author is to be burned]
Robertson: Would you be part of that protest, Yusuf Islam, would you go to a demonstration where you knew that an effigy was going to be burned?
Y. Islam: I would have hoped that it'd be the real thing

The New York Times also reports this statement from the program: [If Rushdie turned up at my doorstep looking for help] I might ring somebody who might do more damage to him than he would like. I'd try to phone the Ayatollah Khomeini and tell him exactly where this man is.[7]

re: #241 CuriousLurker

He's given multiple contradictory explanations for why he said what he said, in my estimation. At times claiming he was joking, sometimes claiming he was just answering in the hypothetical.

Also:

On February 21, 1989, Yusuf Islam addressed students at Kingston University in London about his conversion to Islam and was asked about the controversy in the Muslim world and the fatwa calling for Salman Rushdie's execution. He replied, "He must be killed. The Qur'an makes it clear - if someone defames the prophet, then he must die." [4]

It's bad enough to stick with fundie interpretation of the Koran - which makes him a fundie himself - he said "He must be killed".

Mornin' everyone...so what are we all wrong about today? (other than putting folk singers on a shit-list over a book 90% of us never read)

re: #241 CuriousLurker

I understand he wants to walk it back but he wasn't just quoting scripture.

If he has really changed his mind I would think he'd be more up front about his previous statements. He still kind of avoids directly addressing what he really said and his interpretation of his religious obligations.

re: #244 Obdicut

Hypothetical is about the answer to the question at conference, the joking is about the program quoted above. In any case it is proper to say that he called for the death of Rushdie. If some fundie Christian said without qualification "our Holy Bible says: stone the gays!" we would see it as incitement.

re: #241 CuriousLurker

I can't stick around to argue today, nor am I going to launch some big defense of a man I've never met, so take it or leave it as you will:

Yeah. More of that turbo powered anti-Jihad blogger Cat Stevens derangement from the Bush years. That guy Armaros is another freak to Charles's freak magnet. I even find my name attached to ironically their never ending fatwa against us. Of course he wasn't even mentioned in the HUH piece. That was about Nugent. So that nut bring up Charles and Cat Stevens, and some other person, and they all for the bait. It's freaking dripping.

Meanwhile, down at the ranch:

#Breivik: "One has to provoke a witch-hunt against moderate cultural conservatives, and this happened beyond my wildest expectation."

— Paul Brennan (@paulrbrennan) April 18, 2012

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. It's another gloriously warm and sunny day, and 1WTC continues heading skywards - it's close to being the tallest building in NYC, and they will soon be working on the spire that will make it the tallest skyscraper in North America.

That's not without ongoing problems elsewhere on the site. The Port Authority continues fighting over construction costs to build out the WTC Museum, so work's pretty much stopped on that project. Silverstein Properties isn't committing to building out 2 and 3 WTC until they get tenants lined up, so they're likely heading towards a stub construction (building podiums on which the towers can be built at a later date), but those costs are on Silverstein.

The Port Authority continues expending money on the transit hub that it simply can't afford to do so - at least not without siphoning funds from other more vital projects that can improve capacity. The transit hub would be a glorious bit of infrastructure from an architectural and design standpoint, but it's a facade. And since the Port Authority has been locked into that design, the costs have soared to $3.8 billion from $2.2, and that reflects nearly all the money being raised in the tolls/fare hikes enacted in the past 12 months. Those costs mean that other projects can't be done or are further delayed, even though they'd expand capacity, upgrade infrastructure, etc.

re: #245 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Also:

It's bad enough to stick with fundie interpretation of the Koran - which makes him a fundie himself - he said "He must be killed".

It's just a joke!
//