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Vatican Cracks Down on Uppity US Nuns

Get thee behind me, sister
Religion • Views: 27,063

The Vatican is cracking down on American nuns who aren’t opposed to women’s rights and gay rights, which should surprise no one who’s been following the Catholic Church’s swing to the right.

WASHINGTON — The Vatican has launched a crackdown on the umbrella group that represents most of America’s 55,000 Catholic nuns, saying that the group was not speaking out strongly enough against gay marriage, abortion and women’s ordination.

Rome also chided the Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR) for sponsoring conferences that featured “a prevalence of certain radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith.”

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807 comments

1 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:40:42pm

Priorities, Vatican, priorities.

2 Interesting Times  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:43:06pm

Dear Child Rapist Protectors and Cover-uppers:

3 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:43:13pm

The next morning the Pope found a ruler in his bed.

Broken.

4 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:45:33pm

re: #3 Mostly sane, most of the time.

This flew right over my head. Explain please.

5 jaunte  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:46:06pm

Another patriarchy decides its female servants need correction.

6 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:46:17pm

re: #4 ProGunLiberal

This flew right over my head. Explain please.

It's a Godfather reference.

7 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:46:20pm

re: #4 ProGunLiberal

This flew right over my head. Explain please.

As I understand it, Nuns in the Catholic schools use rulers on people's knuckles as a form of discipline.

It's a threat. Kind of like the horse head from Godfather.

8 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:47:28pm

re: #7 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Ah, I see.

So Nuns are like the Mafia. Cool.

9 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:47:34pm

re: #7 Mostly sane, most of the time.

As I understand it, Nuns in the Catholic schools use rulers on people's knuckles as a form of discipline.

It's a threat. Kind of like the horse head from Godfather.

The Nuns really aren't in Catholic schools much anymore these days but they most certainly used them when my Dad went to Catholic school as a kid. A kind of weird anecdote but he's the only of his six siblings not to graduate from Catholic school but also the only one not to have a divorce.

10 dragonath  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:48:54pm
radical feminist themes

Well, dang.

11 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:49:11pm

God am I glad I didn't go to Catholic School during my Dad's era. My penmanship and the fact I write with the "wrong" hand. The latter I realize was something that happened outside of religious schools since my grandmother remembers unsuccessfully trying to force right-handedness on my uncle but yikes.

12 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:49:59pm

Lots of nuns have gone solo or joined groups of religious lay women. Nuns are doctors and scientists now. Most won't be cowered by a bunch of old men in funny hats.

13 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:50:03pm

re: #10 Beware the Green Dragon!

The theme of "women are equal people too."

I am liking this Pope less and less. And he started pretty low.

Anyone got some actuarial tables?

14 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:50:03pm

re: #11 HappyWarrior

God am I glad I didn't go to Catholic School during my Dad's era. My penmanship and the fact I write with the "wrong" hand. The latter I realize was something that happened outside of religious schools since my grandmother remembers unsuccessfully trying to force right-handedness on my uncle but yikes.

I think everyone was trying to force right-handedness.

15 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:53:18pm

re: #14 Mostly sane, most of the time.

I think everyone was trying to force right-handedness.

Yeah it was very common to do so. I jokingly tried forcing left handedness on my kid brother because I'm the only lefty. He obviously wanted nothing to do with that. But there are times when we play catch where I play righty and he plays lefty.

16 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:53:21pm

I had nuns in school--after Vatican II. I still wouldn't mess with one.

They have a way of looking at you . . .

For a good example for you non-catholics --watch Doubt with Meryl Streep.

17 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:53:24pm

re: #9 HappyWarrior

The Nuns really aren't in Catholic schools much anymore these days but they most certainly used them when my Dad went to Catholic school as a kid. A kind of weird anecdote but he's the only of his six siblings not to graduate from Catholic school but also the only one not to have a divorce.

That's actually part of the Pope's thought process: There are some orders of Nuns that are newer and much more traditionalist than the older orders, and they are growing instead of shrinking. They also seek to get into teaching in some places, and because they would be far cheaper than most teachers such sentiments have a following in some Catholic schools. Some this is related to an idea among those same traditionalist that Vatican II and reform only brought Catholic education defeat and decline. Better in their minds to reverse concessions and take a hard line. such sentiments may be correctly termed 'reactionary', for such a description of them is literally true.

18 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:54:44pm

re: #16 ggt

I had nuns in school--after Vatican II. I still wouldn't mess with one.

They have a way of looking at you . . .

For a good example for you non-catholics --watch Doubt with Meryl Streep.

Gosh watching Doubt was like watching my Dad's stories about his childhood come to life. Excellent movie by the way for anyone who hasn't seen it yet. Meryl is such a fine actress.

19 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:55:49pm

Quiz

Question: The Vatican is cracking down faster and harder on this than?

Answer: ______________ .

20 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:55:57pm

re: #17 Dark_Falcon

That sounds so similar to the Salafis it is disturbing. The whole "we must be radical to gain followers/power" thing is disturbing.

21 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:56:31pm

re: #19 Gus

Pedophilic Priests

What do I get?

22 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:57:47pm

re: #21 ProGunLiberal

Pedophilic Priests

What do I get?

A bag of sesame seed bagels.

23 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:58:01pm

re: #18 HappyWarrior

Gosh watching Doubt was like watching my Dad's stories about his childhood come to life. Excellent movie by the way for anyone who hasn't seen it yet. Meryl is such a fine actress.

I loved that movie. It did a good job of showing the challenges of having faith and working in any large patriarchial organization.

Meryl's character was great!

24 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:58:29pm

re: #20 ProGunLiberal

That sounds so similar to the Salafis it is disturbing. The whole "we must be radical to gain followers/power" thing is disturbing.

It's not really uncommon. The idea is that people are drawn to and see strength in conviction and adherence to principal in the face of obstacles, that convictions make you the "strong horse", to use one Salafist's term.

25 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:58:39pm

I think it is really sad that this special religion has been so perverted by the men running it.

26 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:59:29pm

re: #25 Dancing along the light of day

I think it is really sad that this special religion has been so perverted by the men running it.

I could add that would apply to most organized religion.

It can be a force for such good, but is subject to the flaws of testosterone.

27 Mocking Jay  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:01:51pm

re: #26 ggt

Here's the link you asked for downstairs.

[Link: www.chron.com...]

28 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:02:46pm

Apparently, at the trial today, the Prosecutor went through evidence, including explaining World of Warcraft and also the instructions and ways that Breivik used to make the bomb.

Only the Norwegian TV Station took off the audio for the bomb part. Swedish TV4 and SkyTV did not, and subtitled the whole thing today.

Shorter version, TV4 and SkyTV gave instructions on how to make a bomb. Nice job fucking up there, you dipsticks.

29 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:03:26pm

re: #23 ggt

I loved that movie. It did a good job of showing the challenges of having faith and working in any large patriarchial organization.

Meryl's character was great!

Yeah it did. I really enjoyed it. Hoffman is one of my favorite actors. He like Meryl is someone who has shown he has great range. The first time I really saw PSH was when I had to watch Capote when I read In Cold Blood for a film and lit class I took. Did you think Flynn was guilty? I didn't. I don't want to give spoilers away so I'll leave it at that.

30 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:04:40pm

Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR)

I find this an interesting name for a group of Catholic women. Women aren't allowed to be leaders in the Catholic Church. Thus the crack down.

31 Achilles Tang  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:04:43pm

re: #7 Mostly sane, most of the time.

As I understand it, Nuns in the Catholic schools use rulers on people's knuckles as a form of discipline.

Only on knuckles?

32 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:05:12pm

re: #28 ProGunLiberal

I will give MSNBC, Fox News, and CNN credit for this:

They never had instructions on how to make a bomb on air.

They all earn a cookie.

33 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:05:32pm

re: #27 Oblivious Troll

Here's the link you asked for downstairs.

[Link: www.chron.com...]

Thanks much!

34 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:06:21pm

re: #29 HappyWarrior

Yeah it did. I really enjoyed it. Hoffman is one of my favorite actors. He like Meryl is someone who has shown he has great range. The first time I really saw PSH was when I had to watch Capote when I read In Cold Blood for a film and lit class I took. Did you think Flynn was guilty? I didn't. I don't want to give spoilers away so I'll leave it at that.

Help me here --Flynn was?

35 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:06:25pm

re: #26 ggt

I could add that would apply to most organized religion.

It can be a force for such good, but is subject to the flaws of testosterone.

I didn't know one of the flaws of testosterone was ignoring/condoning pedophilia.

36 Mocking Jay  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:06:34pm

re: #33 ggt

Thanks much!

I only heard about it because he's Romney's legal adviser now.

37 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:07:03pm

re: #34 ggt

Help me here --Flynn was?

Ah apologies, the priest that Streep's character accused of molesting the boy.

38 Achilles Tang  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:07:12pm

re: #19 Gus

Quiz

Question: The Vatican is cracking down faster and harder on this than?

Answer: ___ .

A nutcracker?

39 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:07:20pm

Which is cuter?

This one

or

This one?

Pretend you are getting your eyes checked for glasses.

40 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:08:07pm

re: #27 Oblivious Troll

Here's the link you asked for downstairs.

[Link: www.chron.com...]

Gosh we dodged a bullet when the Senate rejected him. One of my Senators was one of the few Republicans to vote against him. I always respected John Warner for doing that.

41 dragonath  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:08:57pm

I've always thought, as messed up as American politics get, Italy's still got us beat. Imagine these guys inserting themselves into politics every day (okay ... that isn't so hard to imagine).

The Vatican itself is only 130 years out from the Papal States and the Roman Ghetto. Tradition!

42 Achilles Tang  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:09:20pm

re: #22 Gus

A bag of sesame seed bagels.

43 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:09:30pm

re: #35 moderatelyradicalliberal

I didn't know one of the flaws of testosterone was ignoring/condoning pedophilia.

seems to be that way. If it weren't there wouldn't have taken Oprah and a bunch of outrage to get the laws changed and prosecutions we've seen only in the last couple of decades.

We wouldn't have the outrages we hear about from UN workers and others in countries where rights are negligible. Child prostitution wouldn't be profitable.

Shall I go on?

44 jamesfirecat  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:09:59pm

re: #39 ggt

Which is cuter?

This one

or

This one?

Pretend you are getting your eyes checked for glasses.

The first one.

45 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:11:00pm

re: #37 HappyWarrior

Ah apologies, the priest that Streep's character accused of molesting the boy.

Yeah, I think he was guilty.

Because of the way he tried to intimidate her in the office by spouting policy and procedure. NOt his innocence. Plus he gave the kid alcohol. .

46 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:11:51pm

re: #43 ggt

seems to be that way. If it weren't there wouldn't have taken Oprah and a bunch of outrage to get the laws changed and prosecutions we've seen only in the last couple of decades.

We wouldn't have the outrages we hear about from UN workers and others in countries where rights are negligible. Child prostitution wouldn't be profitable.

Shall I go on?

I was trying to defend the male gender, but you're right. The Y chromosome is a terrible thing.

47 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:11:59pm

re: #31 Flame Fin Tomini Tang

Only on knuckles?

WE had a nun who used to throw your shoes out the window into the snow.

NO joke.

48 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:12:22pm

re: #46 moderatelyradicalliberal

I was trying to defend the male gender, but you're right. The Y chromosome is a terrible thing.

unbalanced --only one leg to stand on.

:0

49 jaunte  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:13:54pm

Catholic League Promises To “Mobilize” Religious Groups Against Jon Stewart
[Link: www.buzzfeed.com...]

50 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:14:04pm

re: #45 ggt

Yeah, I think he was guilty.

Because of the way he tried to intimidate her in the office by spouting policy and procedure. NOt his innocence. Plus he gave the kid alcohol. .

Reason why I bring this is up becaues the movie was originally a play and the playwright, Shanley apparently tells the actor playing him whether or not he was guilty or not. I had forgotten about the alcohol honestly.

51 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:14:17pm

re: #45 ggt

Yeah, I think he was guilty.

Because of the way he tried to intimidate her in the office by spouting policy and procedure. NOt his innocence. Plus he gave the kid alcohol. .

Viola Davis was riveting in that movie. Streep and Hoffman were great, but Davis was the most impressive.

52 Mocking Jay  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:14:24pm
53 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:14:51pm

re: #49 jaunte

Catholic League Promises To “Mobilize” Religious Groups Against Jon Stewart

Really Catholic League? This is why Bill Donahue gets lampooned on South Park. Anti-Catholic bigotry is a reality, yes, but freaking out over Jon Stewart?

54 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:15:41pm

re: #51 moderatelyradicalliberal

Viola Davis was riveting in that movie. Streep and Hoffman were great, but Davis was the most impressive.

Yeah she was. I think as I get older, I tend to value movies based on the acting and writing within them more than I do things like action. I guess it's part of growing up.

55 jamesfirecat  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:15:47pm
56 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:15:58pm

re: #48 ggt

unbalanced --only one leg to stand on.

:0

Yes, unbalanced would be a good word for it.

57 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:16:00pm

re: #49 jaunte

That's going to backfire hilariously.

Also, something from the Breivik Trial. Someone on SA said something I would agree with.

No remorse whatsoever for his victims, claims of 'self-defense' in shooting and executing unarmed kids, smirking as the deaths he caused are read off, blathering about his one-man war against multi-culturalism....

What gets me the most though, is him weeping over a tape of HIS OWN PROPAGANDA in a masturbatory narcissistic fashion.

He's probably the best one-man argument in favor of multiculturalism - look at what right wing white supremacy brings; mass death of children from crazy self-centered scumfucks.

58 jaunte  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:16:05pm

re: #52 Oblivious Troll

I think I fixed it. Try now.

59 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:16:10pm

I learned some new frog vocabulary tonight. Watching two males males in a physical battle for breeding space. Frog for "I just kicked your ass" is much more subdued than I expected.

60 Mocking Jay  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:17:10pm

re: #58 jaunte

I think I fixed it. Try now.

Nope.

61 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:17:19pm

re: #59 Killgore Trout

I learned some new frog vocabulary tonight. Watching two males males in a physical battle for breeding space. Frog for "I just kicked your ass" is much more subdued than I expected.

Can you tell us exactly how it was said?

62 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:17:28pm

re: #54 HappyWarrior

Yeah she was. I think as I get older, I tend to value movies based on the acting and writing within them more than I do things like action. I guess it's part of growing up.

I love a good action flick, but most actors who are always good, like Davis rarely make it to the so-called A-list.

63 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:18:29pm
64 jaunte  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:18:59pm

re: #60 Oblivious Troll

Does this one work? [Link: www.buzzfeed.com...]

65 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:19:36pm

re: #62 moderatelyradicalliberal

I love a good action flick, but most actors who are always good, like Davis rarely make it to the so-called A-list.

I like good action flicks too, don't get me wrong but I love good writing and dialogue even more.

66 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:19:42pm

re: #59 Killgore Trout

I learned some new frog vocabulary tonight. Watching two males males in a physical battle for breeding space. Frog for "I just kicked your ass" is much more subdued than I expected.

OK, KT, that was just WAY TMI.

67 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:20:12pm

re: #61 ggt

Can you tell us exactly how it was said?

'ribbet, ribbet', how else?

68 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:20:50pm

re: #61 ggt

Can you tell us exactly how it was said?

Actually yes. In terms of decibels it one of the quieter things they say. Kind of a low rolling growl after a 2-3 minute physical battle. Something I haven't heard or seen before. The victor quickly switched back to talking to the resident female in the normal chatter.

69 Mocking Jay  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:20:58pm

re: #64 jaunte

Does this one work? [Link: www.buzzfeed.com...]

Yup.

70 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:21:18pm

re: #60 Oblivious Troll

Nope.

In those cases you either have to reload the page or just click on the comment to see the changes.

71 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:21:32pm

re: #68 Killgore Trout

Actually yes. In terms of decibels it one of the quieter things the say. Kind of a low rolling growl after a 2-3 minute physical battle. Something I haven't heard or seen before. The victor quickly switched back to talking to the resident female in the normal chatter.

So more like: "Yeah, you ain't shit --Oh, Hey honey . . ."

72 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:23:31pm

Normally, I watch the video to get my own take on things.

I'm not going to this time.

I'm ASSuming the logic is that liberalism cause abuse to come to light and shame the Church.

As usual, the needs of the children are put first . . .

*spit*

73 jamesfirecat  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:23:54pm

re: #58 jaunte

I think I fixed it. Try now.

"Vagina Managers" that phrase is worthy of a boycott? Catholic League if you build your church on claims of fucking moral authority

74 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:24:15pm

tommy the cat

75 Achilles Tang  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:24:47pm

re: #64 jaunte

Does this one work? [Link: www.buzzfeed.com...]

Yup:

The cover-up is revealing. This episode of “The Daily Show” was done to protest Fox’s alleged indifference to the “war on women,” and in doing so Stewart not only made a vulgar attack on Christians, he objectified women.
We are asking Stewart to apologize. If he does not, we will mobilize Protestants, Jews, Mormons and Muslims to join us in a boycott of his sponsors. Moreover, we will not stop with a boycott; there are other things that can be done to register our outrage. We are prepared to spend the money it takes to make this a nationwide issue, and we are prepared to stay the course. Tomorrow we will have something definitive to say, one way or the other.

Added for clarity : "After we see how much money we have left after paying off our pedophilia victims".

76 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:25:12pm

re: #66 Dancing along the light of day

OK, KT, that was just WAY TMI.

You only say that because you're used to giraffe "I just kicked your ass", which is a lot more brutal:

77 Achilles Tang  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:25:55pm

re: #63 ggt

People seem to want censorship.

Why do you think they have a pope?

78 Mocking Jay  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:26:12pm

fucking allergies... fuck spring. Shitty-ass season...

79 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:26:39pm

I can't take the Catholic League seriously because they totally dismiss the pedophilia scandal as anti-Catholicism. I find that outrageous as someone who comes from a Catholic background. I think it's far more damaging to Catholicism to sweep pedophilia allegations under the rug than Jon Stewart making a joke on an 11:00 cable show.

80 jaunte  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:27:21pm

re: #75 Flame Fin Tomini Tang

"Moreover, we will not stop with a boycott; there are other things that can be done to register our outrage."

Sounds like he's jealous of all the coverage Nugent has gotten.

81 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:27:33pm

re: #76 Dark_Falcon

You only say that because you're used to giraffe "I just kicked your ass", which is a lot more brutal:

[Embedded content]

I have a hard time thinking of a male giraffe as a 'bull'.

82 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:28:14pm

re: #76 Dark_Falcon

You only say that because you're used to giraffe "I just kicked your ass", which is a lot more brutal:

[Embedded content]

TKO!

83 Achilles Tang  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:29:05pm

re: #80 jaunte

"Moreover, we will not stop with a boycott; there are other things that can be done to register our outrage."

Sounds like he's jealous of all the coverage Nugent has gotten.

The asshole doesn't know that this will double Jon Stewart's viewers, and maybe get him a whole hour.

84 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:29:35pm

re: #79 HappyWarrior

I can't take the Catholic League seriously because they totally dismiss the pedophilia scandal as anti-Catholicism. I find that outrageous as someone who comes from a Catholic background. I think it's far more damaging to Catholicism to sweep pedophilia allegations under the rug than Jon Stewart making a joke on an 11:00 cable show.

YA THINK?

Next they'll riot over Jesus cartoons.

I'm not kidding.

85 Gus  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:31:17pm

re: #80 jaunte

"Moreover, we will not stop with a boycott; there are other things that can be done to register our outrage."

Sounds like he's jealous of all the coverage Nugent has gotten.

Donohue is a sad pathetic freak. What's he going to do? Unleash all 1,932 followers on Jon Stewart? What a dork.

86 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:31:18pm

re: #84 ggt

YA THINK?

I know, it should be obvious but Billy D's got more press leverage than me.

87 jaunte  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:31:51pm

re: #85 Gus

FETCH... THE COMFY CHAIR!!!

88 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:31:51pm

re: #79 HappyWarrior

I can't take the Catholic League seriously because they totally dismiss the pedophilia scandal as anti-Catholicism. I find that outrageous as someone who comes from a Catholic background. I think it's far more damaging to Catholicism to sweep pedophilia allegations under the rug than Jon Stewart making a joke on an 11:00 cable show.

... and they also tried (and failed) to team up with CAIR to join forces against PZ Myers of desecrating a a communion wafer and a quran. Fuck the theocrats.

89 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:32:33pm

re: #77 Flame Fin Tomini Tang

Why do you think they have a pope?

Back when the average person could not read any language, much less latin, yes it made sense to have a trusted authority to advise and make decisions.

It's not like that anymore. I'm rahter disappointed that individuals think they cannot learn and make their own choices. That they still need an authority figure to tell them what to do.

Then blame others when their 'adult' choices bring them sorrow.

90 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:33:22pm

re: #85 Gus

Donohue is a sad pathetic freak. What's he going to do? Unleash all 1,932 followers on Jon Stewart? What a dork.

[Embedded content]

I can't wait to see Stewarts take on that . . .

91 jaunte  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:34:33pm
92 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:34:48pm

I'm outta here for now.

Have a great evening all!

93 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:36:02pm

re: #88 Killgore Trout

... and they also tried (and failed) to team up with CAIR to join forces against PZ Myers of desecrating a a communion wafer and a quran. Fuck the theocrats.

I am glad they failed.

94 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:36:29pm

re: #91 jaunte

The cover-up is revealing. This episode of “The Daily Show” was done to protest Fox’s alleged indifference to the “war on women,” and in doing so Stewart not only made a vulgar attack on Christians, he objectified women.

Jon Stewart Objectified women?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Pot meet Kettle.

95 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:37:16pm

Hasn't Donahue probably been among the biggest defenders of Mel Gibson despite the fact that he's an obvious Anti-Semitic asshole?

96 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:37:56pm

re: #93 HappyWarrior

I am glad they failed.

Me too. Ironically it was CAIR who refused the offer. Even they knew it was a bridge too far.

97 jamesfirecat  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:40:21pm

re: #94 ggt

Jon Stewart Objectified women?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Pot meet Kettle.

It's more like a blackboard calling a whiteboard dark....

98 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:40:25pm

re: #95 HappyWarrior

Hasn't Donahue probably been among the biggest defenders of Mel Gibson despite the fact that he's an obvious Anti-Semitic asshole?

I don't think so. Mel's version of Catholicism is very much different. He considers the pope to be the Whore Of Rome, An evil infiltrator.

99 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:41:13pm

Hey, I saw something on here yesterday about how the Muslim Brotherhood (among others) are misinterpreting how Sharia Law was used.

Do any of you know what I am talking about? And know where to find it?

100 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:43:31pm

re: #98 Killgore Trout

I don't think so. Mel's version of Catholicism is very much different. He considers the pope to be the Whore Of Rome, An evil infiltrator.

Yeah it is. I probably misremembered. The anti Vatican II people disturb me because they think Catholicism needs to return to what it was pre Vatican II and pre Vatican II Catholicism had a ton of overt Anti-Semitism and willingness to support violence against Jews, non-Catholics, and others if they thought it was just. Have you ever read about the Utasse in Croatia during WWII? They had a ton of Catholic priests in their ranks. Fascism's relationship with Catholicism is something that interests me.

101 jaunte  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:43:32pm
The Vatican has launched a crackdown on the umbrella group that represents most of America’s 55,000 Catholic nuns, saying that the group was not speaking out strongly enough against gay marriage, abortion and women’s ordination.

Meanwhile, like minds in Qom:
Iranian cleric: LGBT are inferior to dogs and pigs

An influential Iranian cleric who is entitled to issue juristic rulings according to the Sharia law, has condemned western lawmakers involved in the decriminalisation of homosexuality, saying those politicians are lower than animals.

102 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:44:25pm

re: #101 jaunte

Meanwhile, like minds in Qom:
Iranian cleric: LGBT are inferior to dogs and pigs

Someone needs to get laid.

103 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:44:57pm

re: #101 jaunte

To the Cleric:

Yeah, and you shoot your own people in the streets.

Next please.

104 jaunte  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:45:31pm

re: #102 HappyWarrior

"A little boy sat down and cried
An old man passing asked him why
He said I can’t do what the big boys do
Old man sat down and he cried, too"

105 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:45:43pm

re: #101 jaunte

Meanwhile, like minds in Qom:
Iranian cleric: LGBT are inferior to dogs and pigs

After our earlier conversation about food, it took me a few seconds to remember that LGBT is not some kind of synthesized soy protein or something.

(The earlier conversation, for those of you who missed it, was about which types of food are okay to eat in which cultures.)

106 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:45:49pm

re: #76 Dark_Falcon

Nah...[Link: www.zooborns.com...]

107 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:46:28pm

Les Claypool Interview 'N' Fishing

108 Achilles Tang  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:52:44pm

re: #99 ProGunLiberal

Hey, I saw something on here yesterday about how the Muslim Brotherhood (among others) are misinterpreting how Sharia Law was used.

Do any of you know what I am talking about? And know where to find it?

Sorry, but Sharia law is interpreted like any religious law; namely how one wants to.

(Of course we see a related manifestation with Constitutional law in the USA, where people like Scalia think we need to live the way the founders saw things.)

The principle is called, IMHO, The Good Old Days Before I Was Born.

109 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:54:39pm

re: #108 Flame Fin Tomini Tang

Sorry, but Sharia law is interpreted like any religious law; namely how one wants to.

(Of course we see a related manifestation with Constitutional law in the USA, where people like Scalia think we need to live the way the founders saw things.)

The principle is called, IMHO, The Good Old Days Before I Was Born.

I like that new name for originist philosophy. Grass is always greener in the past with some.

110 Kronocide  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:54:53pm

re: #107 Killgore Trout

Still fondly remember Primus shocking me for the first 5 or 6 songs they played.

111 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:57:05pm

re: #43 ggt

seems to be that way. If it weren't there wouldn't have taken Oprah and a bunch of outrage to get the laws changed and prosecutions we've seen only in the last couple of decades.

We wouldn't have the outrages we hear about from UN workers and others in countries where rights are negligible. Child prostitution wouldn't be profitable.

Shall I go on?

Sure. One of the basic and pervasive beliefs of patriarchy is that it is a free adult male's perogative to have sex with anyone who doesn't fall into the category of free adult male, or is not owned and guarded by another free adult male. We in the West got this from the Romans, and it didn't get better for a very long time.

One of the revolutionary developments of the past, really, fifty years, was the developing trend in Western societies of saying no to that.

112 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:59:24pm

re: #108 Flame Fin Tomini Tang

It was either a link in a thread, or a page. I can't remember.

113 Achilles Tang  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:02:13pm

re: #101 jaunte

Meanwhile, like minds in Qom:
Iranian cleric: LGBT are inferior to dogs and pigs

Islamic societies have been very tolerant of gays historically.

I don't know if he is gay, but...

In the 70's when I lived in Kuwait, I knew westerner men who used eye makeup in public, and were obviously gay, without being arrested.

I once attended a large Kuwaiti business function where a "female" dancer entertainer (not a stripper, but very suggestive) took off a wig at the end revealing a man.

That was before the "give a hand, take an arm" principle really kicked in.

114 Achilles Tang  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:06:24pm

re: #109 HappyWarrior

I like that new name for originist philosophy. Grass is always greener in the past with some.

Yeah, Boy's Town and Gingrich, for example.

115 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:07:21pm

re: #98 Killgore Trout

I don't think so. Mel's version of Catholicism is very much different. He considers the pope to be the Whore Of Rome, An evil infiltrator.

Donahue definitely defended Gibson:

WILLIAM DONAHUE, PRESIDENT, CATHOLIC LEAGUE: I spoke to Mel a couple of weeks ago about this. And I don‘t think it really matters a whole lot to him. It certainly doesn‘t matter to me. We‘ve already won.

Who really cares what Hollywood thinks? All these hacks come out there. Hollywood is controlled by secular Jews who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular. It‘s not a secret, OK? And I‘m not afraid to say it. That‘s why they hate this movie. It‘s about Jesus Christ, and it‘s about truth. It‘s about the messiah.

Hollywood likes anal sex. They like to see the public square without nativity scenes. I like families. I like children. They like abortions. I believe in traditional values and restraint. They believe in libertinism. We have nothing in common. But you know what? The culture war has been ongoing for a long time. Their side has lost.

You have got secular Jews. You have got embittered ex-Catholics, including a lot of ex-Catholic priests who hate the Catholic Church, wacko Protestants in the same group, and these people are in the margins. Frankly, Michael Moore represents a cult movie. Mel Gibson represents the mainstream of America.

And that wasn't the only time:

This week in Catholic: Catholic League president Bill Donohue is offended again. This time, he takes the time out of his protests of the Empire State Building, Comedy Central, Lady Gaga, and comedian Louis C.K. to defend Mel Gibson and call late night talk show host Jay Leno a bigot.

As far as Gibson's own opinion of the Pope, that's a mystery, though we might infer something from his father's statement that Benedict is gay.

In the interview, the host asked Gibson if the Catholic Church has become “politicized” to the point that it can’t address issues like homosexuality. Gibson responded that the Church will not address homosexuality because “half of the people there in the Vatican are queer."
When asked if he thinks Benedict is among those homosexuals, Gibson said, “I certainly do.”

Gibson also called the Pope “a slippery character” and claimed he is part of a conspiracy to destroy the Catholic Church.

Bill Donahue and Gibson share a deeply seated anti semitism that alone seems to trump whatever anti papist sentiments Gibson might have.

116 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:08:28pm

re: #115 goddamnedfrank

Donahue definitely defended Gibson:

And that wasn't the only time:

As far as Gibson's own opinion of the Pope, that's a mystery, though we might infer something from his father's statement that Benedict is gay.

Bill Donahue and Gibson share a deeply seated anti semitism that alone seems to trump whatever anti papist sentiments Gibson might have.

Thanks for the find.

117 EdDantes  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:10:17pm

I'm not Catholic nor am I Jewish, but it vexes me when they are in opposition to each other.

118 Kragar  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:11:14pm

And the Catholic Church wonders why they're losing influence?

They want to bitch about women's rights while they're busy hiding the fact they've been covering for pedophiles for generations.

Fuck the church.

119 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:16:18pm

re: #118 Kragar

Nice new picture for your nic, BTW!

120 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:16:24pm

re: #117 EdDantes

I'm not Catholic nor am I Jewish, but it vexes me when they are in opposition to each other.

I don't much reckon Mel as a Catholic.

Actually, I don't reckon the Catholic League much as Catholics either.

121 reine.de.tout  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:17:22pm

All I'll say is - I'm with Sister Joan Chittester:

"When you set out to reform a people, a group, who have done nothing wrong, you have to have an intention, a motivation that is not only not morally based, but actually immoral," she said.

"Because you are attempting to control people for one thing and one thing only -- and that is for thinking, for being willing to discuss the issues of the age ... If we stop thinking, if we stop demanding the divine right to think, and to see that as a Catholic gift, then we are betraying the church no matter what the powers of the church see as an inconvenient truth in their own times."
In attempting to take such control of people's thinking, she said, "You make a mockery of the search for God, of the whole notion of keeping eyes on the signs of the times and of providing the people with the best possible spiritual guidance and presence you can give.
. . .
Chittister said women religious have been trying since Vatican II "to help the church avoid that kind of darkness and control ... they have been a gift to the church in their leadership and their love and their continuing fidelity.
"When you set out to reform that kind of witness, remember when it's over who doomed the church to another 400 years of darkness. It won't be the people of the church who did it."

And that's that.

Good night folks.

122 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:17:38pm

I really like the "Hollywood is controlled by secular Jews" meme. The purveyors of this brand of scapegoating seem to think that by emphasizing secular their argument is somehow less bigoted, when in fact it's the opposite. What is so special about secular Jews that separates them from the rest of us secular heathens? It's either something about culture or something about ethnicity / race and I wish they'd just come out and identify what that something is. They're catering to the larger all encompassing anti semitism that hates everything about Jews and Judaism, yet they actually think that this transparent divide and assault tactic will somehow be palatable to the religious ones.

123 Kragar  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:18:16pm

re: #119 Dancing along the light of day

Nice new picture for your nic, BTW!

Had it for a few weeks now

124 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:19:36pm
125 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:20:08pm

Is the Vatican really cracking down or is it simply applying the same worn-out principles that it has always relied upon? I think the RCC has always been to the right (leadership, that is) though some Catholic charities haven't necessarily been on board with the standard dogma.

I remember, years ago in SF, the leadership responsible for the city of SF, chastised various church charities that catered to the LGBT crowd because said charities had failed to evangelize the "sin" of homosexuality to LGBT folk. I think it was an either/or ultimatum: preach the "good word" or be shut down. Hopefully a bay area lizard can fill in the blanks.

126 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:20:29pm

re: #123 Kragar

Had it for a few weeks now

Irrelevant.

127 Lidane  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:25:04pm

Poll: Rick Scott or Allen West as VP Would Hurt Romney in Florida

As always, Florida will be a critical swing state in the 2012 election. According to the latest Public Policy Polling survey, President Barack Obama currently has a 5-point lead over Mitt Romney. So what could Romney do to improve his chances? Well, he certainly shouldn't take Sarah Palin's advice and pick Allen West as his running mate. Though, he could do worse than West. He could pick Governor Rick Scott.

Both Republicans appear to be political poison in their home state right now.

128 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:28:39pm

re: #127 Lidane

Poll: Rick Scott or Allen West as VP Would Hurt Romney in Florida

I'm surprised Scott would be worse than West. What with West's channeling of Joe McCarthy recently but then I imagine Scott does worse because people in the state know him statewide while West is probably relatively little known outside his district. Romney won't choose either. I really think he's going to choose someone like McDonnell. I can't see him going too ambitious so he'll choose someone with a more conservative reputation but not someone who will make the base go goo-goo.

129 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:28:56pm

Went through pages. Found one of use.

Still having haystack issue with the paydirt article.

130 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:29:31pm

re: #128 HappyWarrior

I'm surprised Scott would be worse than West. What with West's channeling of Joe McCarthy recently but then I imagine Scott does worse because people in the state know him statewide while West is probably relatively little known outside his district. Romney won't choose either. I really think he's going to choose someone like McDonnell. I can't see him going too ambitious so he'll choose someone with a more conservative reputation but not someone who will make the base go goo-goo.

If he does pick McDonnel, kiss Va goodbye in the election.

131 EdDantes  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:30:14pm

re: #120 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't much reckon Mel as a Catholic.

Actually, I don't reckon the Catholic League much as Catholics either.

I don't know about Mel Gibson. After his anti-semitic remarks he is dead to me.

132 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:30:54pm

re: #130 Varek Raith

If he does pick McDonnel, kiss Va goodbye in the election.

I have to confess ignorance but I don't know how popular McDonnell is right now in state. I imagine he's more popular downstate than he is up here.

133 Targetpractice  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:31:48pm

re: #127 Lidane

Poll: Rick Scott or Allen West as VP Would Hurt Romney in Florida

There's hasn't been a 2 governor party ticket since '48. My money's still on Paul Ryan as VP.

134 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:32:53pm

re: #133 Targetpractice

There's hasn't been a 2 governor party ticket since '48. My money's still on Paul Ryan as VP.

A representative? That would be even more out of left field to me. Trying to think of a Senator who has been a strong backer of Romney's that would compliment him.

135 EdDantes  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:32:56pm

re: #133 Targetpractice

/Lets not rule out Ken Lay

136 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:34:06pm

re: #135 EdDantes

/Lets not rule out Ken Lay

Holy blast from the past, Batman!

137 Kragar  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:34:23pm

re: #126 Varek Raith

Irrelevant.

Thats really pretty standard.

138 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:35:55pm

Paydirt. CuriousLurker linked to it late last night.

Paradoxes of “religious freedom” in Egypt

As benign as this aspect of the FJP platform may sound, provisions guaranteeing “special rights” for different religious communities often carry illiberal implications when codified as state law. But the presumed alternative—banishing religious law through strict secularism—is also not an unqualified good. It imposes restrictions on “religious freedom” in another way, by disempowering citizens from entering into legal arrangements inspired by their own religious commitments. This paradox of religious freedom—the difficulty of reconciling the individual’s right from religion, while providing for the right to religious law is a paradox rooted in the modern state’s capacity and proclivity to codify and monopolize law. And, ironically, it is not modern state law but the Islamic legal tradition itself that may point the way out of this impasse.

It is important to note that the codification and implementation of religious law as state law is not only troubling from a “Western” liberal rights perspective, but also from the standpoint of the Islamic legal tradition. The core epistemology of Islamic jurisprudence dictates that Islamic legal doctrine is unavoidably pluralistic. Sharia is believed to be the perfect Law of God, but Muslim jurists have always insisted that it is impossible for fallible human beings to know that Law with certainty. Thus, the legal rules they extrapolated from scripture were treated as only “probable” articulations of sharia, all equally valid because there is no way to know for sure which jurist is correct (and no Muslim “church” to designate favorites). The legal doctrine they crafted is called “fiqh” (literally, “understanding”), and it eventually formed into schools of law that disagreed with each other, sometimes in significant ways. For Muslims, then, there is one Law of God, but there are many schools of fiqh articulating that Law on earth. That simple fact is what makes discussing sharia so challenging in the West, where it is assumed by many to be exact, uniform, and uncontestable by believers.

Fiqh pluralism allows Islamic law to be tangible enough for everyday use, but still flexible enough to accommodate evolution and personal choice. This pluralism is lost with state codification. Because sharia doesn’t exist as one code of law but rather as multiple fiqh schools, any state “legislation of sharia” is purely an exercise of state power, selecting one (humanly-created and fallible) fiqh rule out of several equally valid choices and enforcing it as state law, often in the guise of divine law. State codification of fiqh rules (and calling them “sharia”) undermines the dynamism of Islamic jurisprudence and the organic relationship with society that these jurisprudential traditions have had in the past. It freezes certain rules from a past time, anachronistically applying them in today’s different social, political, and technological contexts.

This is seen most clearly in the field of family law. A growing body of scholarship suggests that the codification of Islamic family law in Egypt and most other Muslim-majority countries was selective and partial. Far from advancing the status of women, the codification of Islamic family law actually narrowed the range of rights that women could claim in the diverse doctrines of multiple fiqh schools. Thus, the limited (and antiquated) laws of divorce that are applied today to Muslims in Egypt are dictated by contemporary politics, not by sharia.

139 Targetpractice  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:38:27pm

re: #134 HappyWarrior

A representative? That would be even more out of left field to me. Trying to think of a Senator who has been a strong backer of Romney's that would compliment him.

Remember that Ryan's the big GOP "economic guru," as well as young and attractive, both qualities that the GOP thinks are what will drag the women back to the Dark Side...er, the conservatives.

140 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:40:26pm

re: #139 Targetpractice

Remember that Ryan's the big GOP "economic guru," as well as young and attractive, both qualities that the GOP thinks are what will drag the women back to the Dark Side...er, the conservatives.

Yeah I guess you're right. And I don't think anyone would have bet Dick Cheney for Bush in 2000. A former Defense secretary of his father's and House minority whip I believe in the 80's was probably the last thing on most junkies' minds. Ryan wouldn't totally shock me I guess giving it some thought.

141 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:47:31pm

As a strategy, putting my chocolate cake in the other room isn't working.

142 Kronocide  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:47:58pm

GOP: Abortion? Irrelevant.

143 freetoken  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:48:40pm

re: #140 HappyWarrior

Perhaps Mitt will pick an unknown, a local politician from somewhere in fly-over country, just to play with our minds?

144 freetoken  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:49:25pm
145 Kronocide  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:49:31pm

Hm.... like a half Senator from Alaska?

146 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:50:08pm

re: #143 freetoken

Perhaps Mitt will pick an unknown, a local politician from somewhere in fly-over country, just to play with our minds?

I think they're eager to avoid Palin II. The leadership this is. The base probably would greet Bachmann or Louie Gohmert or Steve King with open arms.

147 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:51:31pm

re: #121 reine.de.tout

So happy to see you here, I have missed you.

148 freetoken  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:52:44pm

re: #146 HappyWarrior

I think they're eager to avoid Palin II.

Sounds like something a gamer would play: Palin II: Carnage of Wasilla

149 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:54:27pm

re: #148 freetoken

Sounds like something a gamer would play: Palin II: Carnage of Wasilla

Haha touche. But yeah I think the leadership even if they outwardly praise Palin probably wants to avoid someone like her. Who knows though. I make the mistake of assuming they're rational people more often than not.

150 Kronocide  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:55:36pm

re: #146 HappyWarrior

I think they're eager to avoid Palin II. The leadership this is. The base probably would greet Bachmann or Louie Gohmert or Steve King with open arms.

After the long drawn out beat down of the GOP Thunderdome I'd figure they'd want somebody with some Tea Party cred to close ranks. Most viable VP candidates who have and sense of vision and their careers will probably think 'Not now.'

Romney is in a little bit of a pickle, he may have to go with a little more of a nutter or outsider.

151 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:57:57pm

re: #150 Kronocide

After the long drawn out beat down of the GOP Thunderdome I'd figure they'd want somebody with some Tea Party cred to close ranks. Most viable VP candidates who have and sense of vision and their careers will probably think 'Not now.'

Romney is in a little bit of a pickle, he may have to go with a little more of a nutter or outsider.

Who fits that. I don't think he can afford to go too Tea Party without alienating the majority of the American people but at the same time, he can't go too establishment and away from the TP either. I think he's in the same position that McCain got in. Not that I feel bad for him since he's put himself in this mess by the constant pandering.

152 freetoken  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:06:59pm

Perhaps Mitt would be better off picking an apparatchik. Look at GWB - he said he picked Cheney to head up the search for his VP candidate, not to be VP, but in the end was impressed to pick Cheney himself. (Personally I suspect this was the intended outcome by Cheney when GWB originally assigned him the task.)

Ask yourself: what does Willard Mitt Romney really want.

You say: POTUS. Ok, now ask yourself how deluded you think Romney is. How well is his grasp on reality? Can he read the survey analyses (and certainly he can afford to hire the best pollsters.)

Look at Obama. Did he really need Biden? Heck, did he really need anybody? No, he knew he was in control and it appears as if he picked Joe simply because they were comfortable with each other.

Mitt is not the favorite to win, and this idea that a VP candidate can swing an election is pretty tenuous, I think.

Was Obama elected because of Biden?
Was Bush elected because of Cheney?
Was Clinton elected because of Gore?
Was GHWB elected because of (oh... what's his name again)?
Was Reagan elected because of GHWB?

and so on down the line.

153 freetoken  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:09:26pm

The reality of life in America:


LAUSD considers lowering the bar for graduation

Eight years ago, the Los Angeles Board of Education adopted an ambitious plan to have all students take college-prep classes to raise academic standards in the nation's second-largest school district.

Now, that plan is about to take effect: Beginning this fall, incoming freshmen will have to pass those classes to graduate.

On Tuesday, district officials backtracked, offering details of a proposal to reduce overall graduation requirements and allow students to pass those classes with a D grade.

They must change course, Los Angeles Unified School District officials said, or they would open the doors to scores of dropouts and others who can't pass the more rigorous requirements. The new plan, which still must be approved by the board, would allow students to graduate with 25% fewer credits.

[...]

My position is very straightforward: not everyone wants to go to college, not everyone should go to college. Thus requiring college-prep courses is silly.

154 EdDantes  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:10:19pm

re: #144 freetoken

His wife might have helped on the math (she was a mathematician) but I am certain the theory was his.

155 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:12:02pm

re: #152 freetoken

Perhaps Mitt would be better off picking an apparatchik. Look at GWB - he said he picked Cheney to head up the search for his VP candidate, not to be VP, but in the end was impressed to pick Cheney himself. (Personally I suspect this was the intended outcome by Cheney when GWB originally assigned him the task.)

Ask yourself: what does Willard Mitt Romney really want.

You say: POTUS. Ok, now ask yourself how deluded you think Romney is. How well is his grasp on reality? Can he read the survey analyses (and certainly he can afford to hire the best pollsters.)

Look at Obama. Did he really need Biden? Heck, did he really need anybody? No, he knew he was in control and it appears as if he picked Joe simply because they were comfortable with each other.

Mitt is not the favorite to win, and this idea that a VP candidate can swing an election is pretty tenuous, I think.

Was Obama elected because of Biden?
Was Bush elected because of Cheney?
Was Clinton elected because of Gore?
Was GHWB elected because of (oh... what's his name again)?
Was Reagan elected because of GHWB?

and so on down the line.

Fair points. I guess the question really isn't who he will choose but rather what he will look for in a running mate.

156 Kragar  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:27:28pm
157 freetoken  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:27:59pm

re: #155 HappyWarrior

Fair points. I guess the question really isn't who he will choose but rather what he will look for in a running mate.

Someone to cover his back?

I do expect him to chose someone with whom the SoCon base can identify.

158 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:28:46pm

re: #156 Kragar

Perry Will Give 2016 Run 'A Good Examination'

Comedy ensues.

I hope both Ricks run again.

159 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:31:07pm

re: #157 freetoken

Someone to cover his back?

I do expect him to chose someone with whom the SoCon base can identify.

I mean what type of person e.g. elected standing, what that position is, how they're regarded with the base, etc. I agree though I expect a SoCon who will be liked by the base and is probably more populist in language than Romney is. Not sure who fits that. I'm actually really interested to see who he chooses.

160 Kragar  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:33:40pm

re: #158 HappyWarrior

I hope both Ricks run again.

“2016 is way down the road, but I’ll assure you one thing: If I decide to run for the presidency in 2016, I’ll be way in before the summer of 2016 -- 2015, even,” Perry said

Maybe even as early as, um, I know there is one more...

162 HappyWarrior  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:36:55pm

re: #160 Kragar

“2016 is way down the road, but I’ll assure you one thing: If I decide to run for the presidency in 2016, I’ll be way in before the summer of 2016 -- 2015, even,” Perry said

Maybe even as early as, um, I know there is one more...

I think it will be interesting to see how he does if he runs again. He shocked me with how bumbling he was this time. I was amazed that I was looking at the longest tenured governor in the nation and one that governs a big state. I thought he would be Romney's biggest challenge but as I recall he got hit for being "too soft" on immigration and his own acts didn't help his argument either. He came across as a total idiot to me.

163 Kragar  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:37:39pm

re: #162 HappyWarrior

I think it will be interesting to see how he does if he runs again. He shocked me with how bumbling he was this time. I was amazed that I was looking at the longest tenured governor in the nation and one that governs a big state. I thought he would be Romney's biggest challenge but as I recall he got hit for being "too soft" on immigration and his own acts didn't help his argument either. He came across as a total idiot to me.

Being a total idiot would leave that impression.

164 palomino  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:51:13pm

re: #162 HappyWarrior

I think it will be interesting to see how he does if he runs again. He shocked me with how bumbling he was this time. I was amazed that I was looking at the longest tenured governor in the nation and one that governs a big state. I thought he would be Romney's biggest challenge but as I recall he got hit for being "too soft" on immigration and his own acts didn't help his argument either. He came across as a total idiot to me.

And to millions of others as well. You don't get a second chance to make a first impression on the national stage. He failed, and is now a punch line. His debate performances have become legendary...for all the wrong reasons. I don't see him being in the mix for the nod ever again.

165 freetoken  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:53:35pm

re: #164 palomino

I don't see him being in the mix for the nod ever again.

Every court needs a jester.

166 freetoken  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 11:03:38pm

Totally off topic... In these my golden (hah!) years I wouldn't mind delving into archeology. Problem is, as with so many similar schemes, the upfront arrangement of academia hurdles are high indeed, with steep costs (literally, as in money) and frankly an academic field which appears to be teetering on the edge of shambles, given how public institutions are having to slash certain programs, and that private schools are so competitive that an older person like me would have no chance.

I suppose I could simply volunteer to be a grunt on some dig somewhere, a way to gain experience. But my interests are more high-tech (such as remote sensing), and that means money.

There is so much to learn, still, about the rise of humans, and the movement of people across the earth, and of the founding of civilizations.

It also strikes me (following up on a post of mine downstairs about Jerry Coyne's latest paper) that our own American society is awash in just plain inaccurate views of the past. Americans (outside of some recent immigrants) are so brainwashed (yes, I use that term) into a cultic view of human history from SW Asia that it is hard to tell if that it can ever be changed.

Speaking of the "Ricks" from this year's election, both Perry and Santorum have such a twisted view of history and science that I feel confident in asserting that both can not appreciate what really makes our society "modern" and why we have a civilization at all.

167 sagehen  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 11:11:01pm

re: #155 HappyWarrior

Fair points. I guess the question really isn't who he will choose but rather what he will look for in a running mate.

He should look for someone who understands how the Senate works; and it wouldn't hurt to pick a woman. Which gives him exactly 4 choices (none of whom are popular with the so-cons, but they're voting for him anyway.) He might pull some indepdents with Olympia Snowe, or Kay Bailey Hutchinson.

Or, if he really wants to slap Sarah in the face... Lisa Murkowski.

168 Kragar  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 11:21:42pm

re: #167 sagehen

He should look for someone who understands how the Senate works; and it wouldn't hurt to pick a woman. Which gives him exactly 4 choices (none of whom are popular with the so-cons, but they're voting for him anyway.) He might pull some indepdents with Olympia Snowe, or Kay Bailey Hutchinson.

Or, if he really wants to slap Sarah in the face... Lisa Murkowski.

I still say Jan Brewer's name will come up on the short list.

169 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 11:41:29pm

re: #167 sagehen

He should look for someone who understands how the Senate works; and it wouldn't hurt to pick a woman. Which gives him exactly 4 choices (none of whom are popular with the so-cons, but they're voting for him anyway.) He might pull some indepdents with Olympia Snowe, or Kay Bailey Hutchinson.

Or, if he really wants to slap Sarah in the face... Lisa Murkowski.

The wingnuts hate Snowe, and they probably hate Hutchinson too. Plus, I think Hutchinson has made it clear she ain't interested.

I guess the question is, how much of the pick depends on how much we're catering to wingnuts. I suspect, lots.

170 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 11:42:06pm

re: #168 Kragar

I still say Jan Brewer's name will come up on the short list.

I feel like a total bitch saying this, but I don't think she's hot enough for the purpose.

171 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 11:42:43pm

re: #170 SanFranciscoZionist

I think I see what you are getting at about the Republican Electorate.

172 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 11:43:35pm

I am in the middle of writing a paper about treating PTSD in returning Iraq/Afghanistan vets, and let me tell you, this is not a cheerful subject.

They drop out of treatment a lot.

173 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 11:51:13pm

re: #171 ProGunLiberal

I think I see what you are getting at about the Republican Electorate.

Well, most of the concept of Palin was that she was sexy mama veep candidate. And they keep trying to recreate the formula. You'd think Brewer would have got more attention by now--she's insane, wingnutty, outspoken and the governor of an important state. She's gotten some real agenda pieces passed. But she doesn't get attention, and I think the fact that she's not seen as a babe is part of it.

This completely sucks. I mean, Brewer is a nut, but even a nut should not be less valuable to her party because she's over sixty-five and has wrinkles. I don't think they'll go for an older woman, or a plain woman, and I don't think they'll go for any of the more moderate Republican women.

Murkowski has practical hair, and is from Alaska too, which will be the kiss of death.

I dunno. Perhaps I'm too cynical, but I don't think so.

174 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 11:53:23pm

re: #173 SanFranciscoZionist

With the way the Republicans operate, you are not being too cynical.

175 freetoken  Wed, Apr 18, 2012 11:59:51pm

re: #173 SanFranciscoZionist

I dunno. Perhaps I'm too cynical, but I don't think so.

Your on target.

Yet, once again I'll repeat myself - Mitt will do whatever he wants, and who becomes President will be decided by the guy on top, not the Veep.

I had assumed that Mitt would pick Santorum, but the latter seems to be burning those bridges. So now I'm out of guesses.

Will Mitt look for the naughty librarian type (a la Palin)?
Will Mitt, knowing he is going to lose, be persuaded to pick someone to promote them to be the anointed next-in-line in traditional GOP fashion?
Will Mitt just pick one of his friends?
Will God tell Mitt who to pick?

These and other questions won't be answered for a couple of more months.

176 freetoken  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 12:02:00am

My take on where the GOP is today:

177 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 12:06:55am

I attended Catholic Sunday school classes. I remember when the Monsigior came in and the nun knelt down to kiss his ring.

This was also the time of Civil Rights and I remember thinking "People in America aren't supposed to do stuff like this!"

178 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 12:09:42am

re: #176 freetoken

you link is lost in space! "file not found"...Oh the pain, the pain!

179 Big Joe  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 12:10:44am

re: #175 freetoken

My prediction is whoever Mitt picks, everybody will criticize it.

180 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 12:16:19am

As a Mormon, he should be allowed up to four running mates...

181 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 12:20:17am

re: #180 Expand Your Ground

As a Mormon, he should be allowed up to four running mates...

Only if he's running before 1890. Then again, some of his friends seem to think we should go BACK to 1890, so you never know.

And there wasn't a four-wife limit in the old LDS church, was there? I thought you could pretty much marry as many women as you could support.

182 freetoken  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 12:21:16am

re: #178 Expand Your Ground

Hey, it works for me, but some people seem to have trouble with that domain.

183 freetoken  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 12:24:26am

Time to earn some more curmudgeon points.

Just watched the first episode of PBS's new series "America Revealed".

Most disappointed. It seemed like a cross between an advert for Cargill and a few payoffs for indulgences from the sustainability crowd.

I was reminded of those old short movies shown in grade school to tell us how great American industry was.

The host's main qualification appears to be that he won a season of "Survivor".

Note to self: don't expect much from a show which is hosted by someone from a stupid reality-TV show, even if it is on PBS.

184 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 12:25:55am

Now, of course, all I can think of is the Mark Twain sketch where he visits Brigham Young, and Young explains to him, very kindly, that if he had offered any of his children anything he would have been killed, because if one kid gets, all the kids have to get, or their mothers are upset. There was a guest who gave one child a whistle, and Young has not yet recovered from the repercussions of everyone having to get a whistle too.

Which then gets me thinking of the Ogden Nash poem, where he wishes on the composer of "Chopsticks" a thousand harems with a thousand wives apiece, and a thousand children by each wife, and all of the children playing "Chopsticks" morning noon and night.

Which is a hell of a lot of pianos...

185 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 12:26:42am

re: #181 SanFranciscoZionist

Only if he's running before 1890. Then again, some of his friends seem to think we should go BACK to 1890, so you never know.

And there wasn't a four-wife limit in the old LDS church, was there? I thought you could pretty much marry as many women as you could support.

My friend Niamh's g-g-g-g-grandfather had three wives. Went to jail over that too, back in the old days, in Utah.

186 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 12:27:50am

re: #184 SanFranciscoZionist

I have enough of a problem buying anything with four kids to deal with, I cannot imagine that multiplied by four...

187 freetoken  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 12:29:01am
188 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 12:29:03am

It would make sense that Mitt should have as many running mates as his positions support.

And if there turn out to be too many, well, he likes firing people, doesn't he?

189 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 12:32:30am

re: #187 freetoken

That's not Lost in Space

190 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 12:45:07am

re: #181 SanFranciscoZionist

No, you are dead-on regarding that. From Wikipedia on this:

Sarah Pratt, first wife of Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt, in an outspoken critique of Mormon polygamy said that

[polygamy] completely demoralizes good men and makes bad men correspondingly worse. As for the women—well, God help them! First wives it renders desperate, or else heart-broken, mean-spirited creatures.

Pratt ended her marriage to husband Orson Pratt in 1868 because of his "obsession with marrying younger women" (at age 57, Orson Pratt married a sixteen year old girl, his tenth wife, younger than his daughter Celestia). Sarah Pratt lashed out at Orson in an 1877 interview,

Here was my husband, gray headed, taking to his bed young girls in mockery of marriage. Of course there could be no joy for him in such an intercourse except for the indulgence of his fanaticism and of something else, perhaps, which I hesitate to mention.

The Tanners argue that early church leaders established the practice of polygamy in order to justify behavior that would otherwise be regarded as immoral. The Ostlings criticize Joseph Smith for marrying at least 32 women during his lifetime, including several under the age of 16, a fact acknowledged by Mormon historian Todd Compton. Compton also acknowledges that Smith entered into polyandrous marriages (that is, he married women who were already married to other men) and that he warned some potential spouses of eternal damnation if they did not consent to be his wife, and furthermore that, in at least two cases, he married orphan girls that had come to live at his home.

191 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 1:41:52am

re: #154 EdDantes

His wife might have helped on the math (she was a mathematician) but I am certain the theory was his.

She didn't pass the exams exactly because her math grades weren't good. Anyway, there is no evidence that she helped with science, and what evidence there is shows that she didn't help with science.

192 researchok  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 1:57:30am

Morning, all

193 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:03:15am

Hey, Lazardo.

194 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:03:29am

re: #193 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Oops, he logged out.

195 researchok  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:04:37am

re: #194 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

He saw you coming.

And ran.

//

196 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:05:22am

re: #195 researchok

He saw you coming.

And ran.

//

Oh, I just woke up, that may explain it.

197 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:15:07am

Oh, I see Carrier will publish his review of Ehrman's book today. BTW, I got hold of ;) several of Ehrman's books, which seem like a worthwhile read.

198 researchok  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:16:11am

Bart Ehrman?

199 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:16:24am

Yuh.

200 researchok  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:19:03am

He's a contentious figure.

He's at Chapel Hill- UNC. and is pretty divisive there.

He also has a mixed reputation at both Duke and NC State.

I live in the Triangle- Raleigh. I've herd him speak. He is a mixture of both sublime brilliance and insight and obtuse, absolute fog.

201 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:20:09am

Oh, I see Bill Schmallfeldt went on DK's rec list with Romney has a Pedophile Problem Named Ted Nugent!. Beh.

202 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:20:43am

re: #200 researchok

I dunno about that, I know he's a good scholar tho.

203 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:21:26am

re: #201 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Courtney Love is not a good source of information.

204 researchok  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:22:07am

Ted allegedly prefers his gals to be in the mid-stages of puberty.

Noise. He may be a jerk, but over bake the guy and his detractors lose credibility.

205 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:22:24am

re: #200 researchok

Why is he contentious?

206 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:22:43am

re: #201 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Oh, I see Bill Schmallfeldt went on DK's rec list with Romney has a Pedophile Problem Named Ted Nugent!. Beh.

Yunno, if they spin this wrong, it could turn into a real albatross, evoking images of Joseph Smith adopting teenage orphans...

207 researchok  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:23:24am

Because of his rather original interpretations of religious dogma

208 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:23:35am

re: #203 Obdicut

Well, neither is Bill, it turns out ;)

209 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:23:53am

re: #204 researchok

True.

210 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:24:30am

re: #207 researchok

Because of his rather original interpretations of religious dogma

dogma eat dogma

211 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:25:20am

re: #207 researchok

Because of his rather original interpretations of religious dogma

Can you elaborate a bit? He distorts the historical facts about it, or he offers his own new interpretations of the dogma? Because I don't see much wrong with the latter.

212 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:26:29am

Ehrman ate dogma! Shocka! /

213 researchok  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:26:48am

re: #202 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Very good scholar.

He just 'preaches' - at least that is how his critics read him.

He tries to tell believers what it isw they believe, The new convert kind of guy. Doesn't tolerate a lot in the way of disagreement.

214 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:27:14am

re: #207 researchok

Because of his rather original interpretations of religious dogma

That's what any religious scholar does. Could you be clearer?

215 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:27:29am

re: #213 researchok

Very good scholar.

He just 'preaches' - at least that is how his critics read him.

He tries to tell believers what it isw they believe, The new convert kind of guy. Doesn't tolerate a lot in the way of disagreement.

Ah, I see what you mean. Well, I guess when I will read the books I will test this.

216 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:28:48am

Most of Ehrlman's stuff seems planted firmly in the middle of the road on works on the authorship of the bible. In fact:

In 1999 Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium was released as a study on the historical Jesus. Ehrman argues that the historical Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher, and that his apocalyptic beliefs are recorded in the earliest Christian documents: the Gospel of Mark and the authentic Pauline epistles. The earliest Christians believed Jesus would soon return, and their beliefs are echoed in the earliest Christian writings. In this, Ehrman follows the dominant scholarly consensus among secular scholars since Albert Schweitzer advanced a version of that thesis in 1905. In his foreword to the book, Ehrman notes that there are many popular books for the layman advancing various minority theories, such as Jesus as a wisdom-sage, shaman, magician, or even founder of a mushroom cult, but few popular books for laymen advancing the dominant scholarly consensus. This book was intended to correct that gap.

217 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:28:56am

If an agnostic says to Christians "historical records shows Jesus actually meant this" he's withing scholarly parameters, but "you should believe this" is stepping on the religious turf. I don't know what he does.

218 researchok  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:29:46am

re: #211 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Can you elaborate a bit? He distorts the historical facts about it, or he offers his own new interpretations of the dogma? Because I don't see much wrong with the latter.

The latter is fine- and to be cloear, I'm no expert on Ehrman. I have heard him a couple time and he makes for fascinating lecture.

It isn't so much he offers his own interpretation. LIke I said, he is pushed back against because he lectures others on what they purportedly believe.

The argue the point and the 'he said, she said, starts'.

219 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:30:32am

re: #218 researchok

K, as I said, I will see for myself ;)

220 researchok  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:31:07am

re: #216 Obdicut


As I said, I'm no expert but he does have his detractors both at UNC and Duke.

221 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:31:09am

re: #218 researchok

I've never seen Ehrlman focused on actual belief rather than textual basis. Can you cite a book of his where he does this?

222 freetoken  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:32:05am

re: #197 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Oh, I see Carrier will publish his review of Ehrman's book today. BTW, I got hold of ;) several of Ehrman's books, which seem like a worthwhile read.

His popular books are somewhat repetitive, covering the same ground. BTW, Erhman has done a couple of video lecture series for The Great Courses.

223 researchok  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:32:28am

re: #219 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

K, as I said, I will see for myself ;)

You'll be pretty impressed- some of his stuff is terrific. He really is original.

It is his conclusions that cause the sparks.

224 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:33:08am

It's like in that debate on what is meant by "not boiling a kid in its mother's milk". Jack Sasson argues that it should actually be read and understood as "don't roast a kid in its mother's fat". But in the end he adds:

I have sought to explain the original meaning of a law that remains enigmatic to scholarship. Yet this explanation should prove irrelevant to how traditional Jews today display their attachment to their faith. Traditional Judaism owes its rules of practical life to biblical laws as interpreted by the Jewish sages. This means that lasagna and cheeseburgers must still not be served at their tables.

225 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:33:23am

re: #222 freetoken

Yeah, to me they're quite readable but suffer from the 'this is just an update' problem; I feel he could have released new versions of an old book without writing an entire new one. But I think that's market-based; it'd work for pure academic publications but not his crossover popular/academic ones.

226 researchok  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:33:34am

re: #221 Obdicut

I've never seen Ehrlman focused on actual belief rather than textual basis. Can you cite a book of his where he does this?

The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture: The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament.

I see.

You are as Ehrman scholar?

227 freetoken  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:33:50am

re: #216 Obdicut

Most of Ehrlman's stuff seems planted firmly in the middle of the road on works on the authorship of the bible.

Ehrman is a historicist, meaning he sees the OT and NT as being writings of people recording some events, even if those writers took great liberties with invention or fantasy.

228 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:34:40am

re: #225 Obdicut

I'll start with Forged, and in older books will skip the repetitions.

229 freetoken  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:35:46am

re: #225 Obdicut

... But I think that's market-based; it'd work for pure academic publications but not his crossover popular/academic ones.

Yup. Ehrman and his publishers know that in the English speaking world there's an almost inexhaustible market for anything labeled "Jesus", and so the aim to help fill the need.

Good capitalists, them.

230 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:36:18am

re: #226 researchok

The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture: The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament.

That book doesn't really do much 'telling people what they believe'. It argues that the traditional blame placed on heretics or unwitting scribes for errors or changes to scripture is in error, and that it was actually the orthodox who changed them.

Where in that book do you see him telling people what they believe?

You are as Ehrman scholar?

I've read four or five of his books.

231 researchok  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:36:25am

re: #227 freetoken

That seems to be his bread and butter.

Lots of creative leeway.

The guy is smart, no doubt about it. It is his interpretations that drive the debate.

Like I said, I'm no expert on Bart Ehman, but he is a somewhat divisive figure around here.

232 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:37:20am

re: #231 researchok

Is mainstream scholarly interpretation of the bible as a historically authored document also divisive around there?

233 researchok  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:38:09am

re: #230 Obdicut

That book doesn't really do much 'telling people what they believe'. It argues that the traditional blame placed on heretics or unwitting scribes for errors or changes to scripture is in error, and that it was actually the orthodox who changed them.

Where in that book do you see him telling people what they believe?

I've read four or five of his books.

Interesting. I heard him speak on the subject but it is now clear to me I din't understand what he was saying.

Notwithstanding his local academic critics, I will defer to your expertise.

As I said, I am no Ehrman expert.

234 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:39:04am

re: #230 Obdicut

It argues that the traditional blame placed on heretics or unwitting scribes for errors or changes to scripture is in error, and that it was actually the orthodox who changed them.

So a monk in the Middle Ages is copying manuscripts, and notes to the Abbot that he is making a copy of a copy, and that it might be a good idea to check the original to see if he is not copying any mistakes. The Abbot agrees and goes off to check.

After a while, the monk wonders what has become of him, and goes of searching. He finds the Abbot in the archives, banging his head against the wall and exclaiming "It says here we are supposed to CELEBRATE!"

235 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:39:10am

re: #231 researchok

I think maybe you're referring to God's Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question – Why We Suffer.

That's the only book of his I can think of that analyzes the actual theology rather than the authorship of the New Testament. And it's a relatively standard examination of the problem of evil with a beneficent god.

236 freetoken  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:39:15am

re: #231 researchok

Like I said, I'm no expert on Bart Ehman, but he is a somewhat divisive figure around here.

"Here" being the State your in?

Many mythicists seem to not like historicists, and fundamentalists of course revile historicists.

237 researchok  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:39:37am

re: #232 Obdicut

Is mainstream scholarly interpretation of the bible as a historically authored document also divisive around there?

No.

Ehrman remains controversial because he tells evangelicals what they believe.

They don't all appreciate that.

238 researchok  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:40:30am

re: #235 Obdicut

I think maybe you're referring to God's Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question – Why We Suffer.

That's the only book of his I can think of that analyzes the actual theology rather than the authorship of the New Testament. And it's a relatively standard examination of the problem of evil with a beneficent god.

No, I do know what I heard him speak on.

Or I thought I did.

239 freetoken  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:40:53am

I see there are a lot of videos of Ehrman on Youtube. Don't know which ones would be worthy of a view.

240 researchok  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:41:26am

re: #236 freetoken

Here as in the Triangle (Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill) NC

I'm in Raleigh.

241 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:41:33am

re: #237 researchok

I'm sorry, you haven't supported this contention at all, and it's so different from anything I've read of his that it's difficult to credit it. Can you give any example of him telling evangelicals what they believe?

Obviously, when he's talking about the alteration of the New Testament by the Orthodox, he's talking about history, and it isn't related to what Evangelicals believe. So I'm having a hard time connecting a talk on that to telling Evangelicals what they believe.

242 freetoken  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:42:34am

I found that someone uploaded one of Ehrman's series from The Great Courses up to Youtube:


243 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:42:43am

re: #237 researchok

No.

Ehrman remains controversial because he tells evangelicals what they believe.

They don't all appreciate that.

Is he being descriptive, as in, "About the beliefs of evangelicals in such and such county"? Then again, nothing wrong with it. If he says what they should believe, can you give an example, because I'm pretty sure he would do no such thing, as it would be rather pointless and he's a smart fellow.

244 researchok  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:43:02am

re: #239 freetoken

I'm sure they are all good.

he really is very much an original thinker.

He contentious because of his conclusions. When he speaks of textual connections, the guy just shines.

245 researchok  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:43:29am

re: #241 Obdicut

Like I said, you are the expert, not I.

246 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:43:36am

Of course, saying that fundamentalists should believe in evolution is pretty arrogant too. Saying that evolution is a fact isn't.

247 freetoken  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:44:48am

Oh, I see how that person got around the TTC copyright - only the audio is uploaded, not the video. Oh well....

248 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:45:01am

Ah, I think I may have found an article that sheds light on this.

[Link: www.newsobserver.com...]

It doesn't, however, show Ehrlman telling Evangelicals what they believe. It shows him challenging them on their lack of resolution for the contradictions raised by the New Testament and their fundamentalist, ahistorical approach to the authorship of the bible.

In fact, it shows him, where he is talking about what they believe, being accurate, even by the Evangelicals own estimation; they're just saying he's wrong in his conclusions, not in his premises.

249 researchok  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:45:06am

re: #243 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

That and more. He is an ex evangelical and as such, has the convictions of a new convert so to speak.

I suspect if he were in Boston or LA, he would not be so controversial.

NC is in the bible belt.

250 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:46:19am

re: #245 researchok

Like I said, you are the expert, not I.

I'm not sure how having read four or five books of his makes me an expert. What I am asking is for you to support the contention that he tells Evangelicals what they believe. I don't think you're correct-- as in the above article, I think what's divisive about him is he challenges Evangelicals on how far out of the scholarly mainstream they are on biblical authorship, and on their theological lack of resolution to the many contradictions in the New Testament.

251 researchok  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:46:51am

re: #248 Obdicut

As I said, I'm no expert but one article in the N&O does not a career define.

252 researchok  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:48:57am

re: #250 Obdicut

I have not read four of five of his books.

I heard him speak twice. He is in my uneducated opinion a brilliant and original guy but I can see why he has his critics.

That's all I know.

253 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:50:13am

re: #251 researchok

As I said, I'm no expert but one article in the N&O does not a career define.

Huh? His career is studying the authorship of the Bible. The article I quoted shows why he's 'divisive'-- it's because of his work on the authorship of the bible, and the contradictions in the new testament that he feels are left unresolved by evangelicals.

That seems a perfectly sufficient explanation of why he's 'divisive', at least to Evangelicals (and to mythicists).

What I'm asking you to do is to support your contention that the reason he's divisive is because he tells Evangelicals what they believe. I don't see any reason for you to believe this is the cause, when there is a much more relevant and proximate cause-- that he challenges Evangelicals on their actual biblical literacy, and on their belief that the changes made to the New Testament during the early days of Christianity where trivial.

254 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:53:02am

Heh.

[Link: lenta.ru...]

In Moscow subway in one of the trains there will be a 6-months "exhibition" of fragments of Gabriel Garcia Marquez's poetry and prose. Turns out we have a "year of Marquez" this year. First time I hear about it. But it's pretty cool.

255 researchok  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:54:34am

Obdi, as I said, I will defer to your insights.

I can say many people do resent being told his opinion on texts as being fraudulent and textual forgeries are definitive.

256 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:54:46am

hey guys it's Jean Michel Jarre's Oxygene 2

257 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:55:31am

I would stay and chat but I'm too busy getting my Zoolook on

258 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:57:13am

re: #255 researchok

Obdi, as I said, I will defer to your insights.

I can say many people do resent being told his opinion on texts as being fraudulent and textual forgeries are definitive.

Just as they resent on being told that evolution is a fact. True, not every single opinion will be definitive, but scholars pretty much agree on certain things being forgeries (pseudoepigraphia), e.g. 2nd Peter.

259 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:57:55am

re: #255 researchok

I can say many people do resent being told his opinion on texts as being fraudulent and textual forgeries are definitive.

Sure, of course those who believe in biblical inerrantcy will be annoyed at the mainstream scholarly work that shows that this isn't the case. But what does that have to do with him telling Evangelicals what they believe?

260 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:58:51am

re: #257 windupbird is in the gravity well

I would stay and chat but I'm too busy getting my Zoolook on

Good choice.

261 researchok  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 2:59:10am

re: #258 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

True- and therein lies the problem.

He can resemble his adversaries more than he might care to admit.

262 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 3:00:46am

re: #261 researchok

True- and therein lies the problem.

He can resemble his adversaries more than he might care to admit.

Er... how does he resemble them?

He's uses scholarly analysis. They use faith. So, the resemblance is where?

263 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 3:01:38am

re: #261 researchok

True- and therein lies the problem.

He can resemble his adversaries more than he might care to admit.

I haven't really heard him speak or anything, but I wouldn't see it that way. Where there's a bent, it may be useful to be forceful to try to fix it by hitting it. Sure, you shouldn't hit hard enough as to make the bent just go to the opposite side, but while you're fixing it you'll be hitting it.

264 researchok  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 3:01:59am

Well folks, the dragons of the day call.

More of a yesterday, all day long, meeting of mediocre entrenched bureaucrat types.

Tovarisch Sergey, you of all people know exactly of whom I speak.

America is a great country but we have our own turf protecting apparatchiks.

265 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 3:02:47am

re: #264 researchok

Good luck.

266 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 3:04:28am

re: #265 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Carryover from last thread: do you know any times when Allied forces actually attacked Swedish ships escorting German transports? I don't think it ever happened.

267 researchok  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 3:04:47am

re: #262 Obdicut

As I said, I will defer to your expertise.

268 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 3:06:48am

re: #266 Obdicut

No, and I'm not big on actual military history either. Battles and plane characteristics bore me.

269 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 3:07:18am

re: #267 researchok

Except you're not, dude. You keep passively-aggressively asserting stuff without backing it up at all, and then saying you're deferring to me.

For example, in this latest one, you're saying he resembles his adversaries, but now you're unwilling to explain how he resembles his adversaries.

270 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 3:08:59am

re: #268 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

No, and I'm not big on actual military history either. Battles and plane characteristics bore me.

Yeah, I figured you might not know, but since it would cross over into the war crimes section I thought it might have floated across your radar.

I really don't think there was. Anyway. Minor point.

271 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 3:14:28am

This'll be an interesting case:

[Link: www.courthousenews.com...]

A federal judge ordered the government to hand over certain communications to the public defense team representing a man accused of plotting to detonate a truck full of explosives during a Christmas tree-lighting ceremony in 2010.

Attorneys for 20-year-old Mohamed Mohamud have been building a case that their client was entrapped by the government when he was a teen-ager, and undercover FBI agents coaxed him into the attack.
Mohamud's public defenders for months have been fruitlessly trying to get information from the prosecution, which claims that the information they seek is confidential, nonexistent, or inadmissible at trial.

Mohamud was arrested on Nov. 26, 2010 after undercover agents foiled the bomb plot they apparently helped him hatch. Mohamud pleaded not guilty to attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction.

Investigators said in an affidavit that the Somali-American planned "a spectacular show" and did not care if he killed innocent people. The affidavit claimed Mohamud told an undercover agent that he "had been thinking of committing some form of violent jihad since the age of fifteen."

The defense team said in federal court filings last year that the government knew about their client's "vulnerabilities" and noted "the sophisticated efforts used to induce Mr. Mohamud to cooperate with undercover agents."

"The initial discovery demonstrates that, regardless of opinions or activities that raised governmental interest, extensive evidence remains in the government's possession that may be helpful in establishing the lack of predisposition to commit the charged crime," according to the Memorandum in Support of Second Motion to Compel Discovery.

Mohamud's attorneys say the government won't let them see key pieces of information crucial to their case.

Because many of the issues deal with classified information, Tuesday's hearing centered on the government's duty to disclose exculpatory information to the defense, without detailing many specifics of the disputed information.

272 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 3:17:17am

re: #271 Obdicut

It doesn't matter if it could be classified as an entrapment. He still should go away. It's just if it's an entrapment, his handlers should go away with him.

273 freetoken  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 3:18:25am

Sad:

Mom killed for her baby

A licensed vocational nurse shot a young mother and kidnapped her newborn son outside of a pediatrician’s office near Houston after lying to her fiance about having delivered his child, authorities said.

“She needed to justify that she had a child to her fiance,” Montgomery County Sheriff’s Capt. Bruce Zenor said yesterday at a briefing.

[...]

274 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 3:18:46am

re: #272 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Agreed. And it'll be interesting to see how much evidence is allowed. Obviously, if very little is allowed, then that sets a pretty dangerous precedent.

275 freetoken  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 3:32:15am
276 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 3:52:59am

This one could be interesting.

Eat Not This Flesh: Food Avoidances in the Old World

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

277 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 4:03:25am

Mmm, horse meat azu, looks yummy: [Link: hulinar.ru...]

278 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 4:09:06am

re: #260 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Good choice.

ETHNICOLORRRRRRRRRRRR

279 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 4:10:03am

re: #278 windupbird is in the gravity well

ETHNICOLORRR

Whatcha smoking and where can I get some of it???
/

280 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 4:13:36am

Saletan's old column about dog-eating hits the spot - it's about unreasonable cultural supremacism. Now, there are reasonable forms of cultural supremacism (i.e. AFAIC cultures that are more liberal towards women, minorities etc. are superior to those that are not). But food choice is not one of the parameters by which to rank cultures.

281 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 4:16:13am

re: #280 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

I think it's also that when people from the US think about dog-eating, they think about eating dogs that they know, and that makes them upset because they're connecting it to an individual-- which makes no logical sense, but it is the way humans operate.

282 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 4:21:26am

re: #281 Obdicut

While the emotional component as well as "eww" component* are there, the inability to understand the hypocrisy of eating pigs - that are smarter than dogs and can be pets - yet wagging finger at other people for eating dogs has supremacist roots, IMHO.

---

* I have the "eww" component because in my culture we don't eat dogs, and I don't associate dogs with being food, as well as there is the meme of "unhygienic dog/cat meat being sold as normal meat" that is hard to shake off. But I won't tell others not to eat them or think of them as savages for doing that.

283 dell*nix  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 4:27:43am

And how may GIs have eaten dog with or without knowing it? Depending on where you have served if you have eaten the local food, there is no telling what you have actually eaten.

284 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 4:36:43am

re: #282 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Heh. My reason for not eating dog is pretty simple: they're predators, and so they compound by an order of magnitude the amount of resources necessary to make them into a food source.

285 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 4:37:41am

re: #284 Obdicut

I would eat horse meat though, if properly prepared.

286 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 4:39:33am

re: #284 Obdicut

Heh. My reason for not eating dog is pretty simple: they're predators, and so they compound by an order of magnitude the amount of resources necessary to make them into a food source.

The word "trayf" which means "something that is not kosher" is derived from Hebrew "taref" which is the root for "animal which tears its prey" and from this can be learned that no predator animal or bird is kosher for consumption.

287 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 4:46:29am

Perhaps the only case that comes close to controversial for me is killing great apes for food. It has even been argued for giving them limited "person" rights. Though then one should be consistent and not experiment on them or keep them in the zoos.

288 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 4:49:12am

re: #8 ProGunLiberal

Ah, I see.

So Nuns are like the Mafia. Cool.

Only more sadistic

// kinda, from someone who spent 7 years in catholic schools.

289 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 4:49:14am

re: #277 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Mmm, horse meat azu, looks yummy: [Link: hulinar.ru...]

I'm getting on my azu look...

290 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 4:50:36am

re: #280 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Saletan's old column about dog-eating hits the spot - it's about unreasonable cultural supremacism. Now, there are reasonable forms of cultural supremacism (i.e. AFAIC cultures that are more liberal towards women, minorities etc. are superior to those that are not). But food choice is not one of the parameters by which to rank cultures.

It has nothing to do with anything other than the fact that OBAMA ATE IT, and then tried to hide the fact - by writing about it in a book that no True Patriot would ever read!!!

291 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 4:53:54am

re: #290 Expand Your Ground

It has nothing to do with anything other than the fact that OBAMA ATE IT, and then tried to hide the fact - by writing about it in a book that no True Patriot would ever read!!!

Obama did many things, this is only "controversial" because of a food taboo.

292 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 4:55:44am

re: #122 goddamnedfrank

I really like the "Hollywood is controlled by secular Jews" meme. The purveyors of this brand of scapegoating seem to think that by emphasizing secular their argument is somehow less bigoted, when in fact it's the opposite. What is so special about secular Jews that separates them from the rest of us secular heathens? It's either something about culture or something about ethnicity / race and I wish they'd just come out and identify what that something is. They're catering to the larger all encompassing anti semitism that hates everything about Jews and Judaism, yet they actually think that this transparent divide and assault tactic will somehow be palatable to the religious ones.

It's the corruption of society one delicious bagel at a time.

293 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 4:58:50am

Morning in America. The year 2012. America is talking about consuming dog meat and Ted Nugent is part of the political dialogue.

294 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 4:58:58am

re: #156 Kragar

Perry Will Give 2016 Run 'A Good Examination'

Comedy ensues.

I'll make a note to invest in maple syrup futures about that time. Though this freaky weather is playing havoc with production.

295 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:01:35am

re: #173 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, most of the concept of Palin was that she was sexy mama veep candidate. And they keep trying to recreate the formula. You'd think Brewer would have got more attention by now--she's insane, wingnutty, outspoken and the governor of an important state. She's gotten some real agenda pieces passed. But she doesn't get attention, and I think the fact that she's not seen as a babe is part of it.

This completely sucks. I mean, Brewer is a nut, but even a nut should not be less valuable to her party because she's over sixty-five and has wrinkles. I don't think they'll go for an older woman, or a plain woman, and I don't think they'll go for any of the more moderate Republican women.

Murkowski has practical hair, and is from Alaska too, which will be the kiss of death.

I dunno. Perhaps I'm too cynical, but I don't think so.

Yea, but how quickly would picking Murkowski get played as "Palin II: Electric Caribou"? And that would simply be another distraction for the Romney Campaign to deal with.

297 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:05:03am

re: #291 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Obama did many things, this is only "controversial" because of a food taboo.

What still astounds me is that he wrote about it in a book published in 2004, but the RWNJ's are only finding about it now since it was menitoned on Fox News or their favorite blog site...

298 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:06:20am

re: #296 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Newly revealed controversy!

We are truly the most intelligent species.

299 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:07:58am

Now that Ted Nugent has become a part of the political discourse, it's only a matter of time before Snooki steps up to the plate.

300 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:08:52am

Perhaps we can develop cartoon characters to do the same.

301 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:09:30am

re: #299 Gus

Now that Ted Nugent has become a part of the political discourse, it's only a matter of time before Snooki steps up to the plate.

That will happen on Dec. 12, 2012.

302 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:09:35am

Max Headroom!

303 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:09:52am

re: #302 Expand Your Ground

Max Headroom!

Welcome to "Brazil."

304 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:10:04am

re: #85 Gus

Donohue is a sad pathetic freak. What's he going to do? Unleash all 1,932 followers on Jon Stewart? What a dork.

A letter was delivered to Steve Albani at Comedy Central notifying him that Jon Stewart has to apologize today or suffer the consequences.

— Catholic League (@CatholicLeague) April 18, 2012

And I hope the reply was:

"Could you please redirect this post to someone who gives a fuck, because you have obviously mistaken me for someone who does."

305 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:11:16am

The year 2012. We're still discussing what the Vatican thinks.

306 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:11:48am

An advanced civilization.

307 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:12:32am

re: #291 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Obama did many things, this is only "controversial" because of a food taboo.

OK, everybody, what is the weirdest thing you have ever eaten?

I am not adventurous when it comes to sampling new food. I once ate goat meat at a Sephardic bar mitzvah in Israel. I don't even remember how it tasted because it was coated in a spicy, hot hot hot sauce.

Most kids will not eat weird food offered to them, it looks like Obama was more adventurous than most kids.

308 steve_davis  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:12:34am

re: #13 ProGunLiberal

The theme of "women are equal people too."

I am liking this Pope less and less. And he started pretty low.

Anyone got some actuarial tables?

No, but I just rolled out double-zeros for him on a couple ten-side dice. Expect him to be decapitated shortly while battling an Umber Hulk somewhere in the Vatican catacombs.

309 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:13:59am

re: #304 RayFerd

And I hope the reply was:

"Could you please redirect this post to someone who gives a fuck, because you have obviously mistaken me for someone who does."

Didn't Donohue learn anything from the last time somebody at Comedy Central took him on?

310 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:14:22am

re: #305 Gus

It's really weird seeing the Catholic Church essentially commit suicide by fundamentalism. In cracking down on the nuns, they are not only persecuting one of their last remaining resources, but one of the main groups in the Catholic Church that people have a positive view of.

I don't know if it was a cynical move on their part; whether they are trying to 'compete' with the anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-abortion fundamentalists, or if it's just earnest patriarchy, but it sucks and it will serve to further the diminishment of the Catholic church and the divide between the laity and the hierarchy.

311 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:16:16am

re: #307 Learned Mother of Zion

OK, everybody, what is the weirdest thing you have ever eaten?

I think, in the end, oysters are pretty freaking weird to eat.

But probably spider is the thing I've had that'd make most people go eww, even if it's basically the same as shrimp. Didn't like it much, but I don't like shrimp much either-- except those jumbo shrimp.

Or witchetty grubs, which I freaking love. They are goddamn delicious. Eat 'em raw or cooked, different and wonderful flavors both ways.

Image: 0UNbchwcco5atpzm00VxIRPXo1_500.jpg

312 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:16:49am

re: #307 Learned Mother of Zion

Not a fan of weird food, though I wouldn't consider goat meat that weird... Not much exotic food either, perhaps the most exotic one was Yakut blood sausage, very tasty as far as I can remember, although of course blood sausage is probably not considered weird food.

313 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:17:17am

re: #307 Learned Mother of Zion

OK, everybody, what is the weirdest thing you have ever eaten?

I am not adventurous when it comes to sampling new food. I once ate goat meat at a Sephardic bar mitzvah in Israel. I don't even remember how it tasted because it was coated in a spicy, hot hot hot sauce.

Most kids will not eat weird food offered to them, it looks like Obama was more adventurous than most kids.

Hmm.

Probably giraffe.

Crayfish and frogs legs were just part of hunting/gathering along a local river in my youth.

The Malaysia/Vietnam trip included some odd vegetables or fruit; e.g. durian. Though I also had stingray tail at a Thai seafood place - that was delicious. And getting into seafood beyond that included eating whelk and small crabs that were eaten whole, shell and all (crunchy).

314 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:17:54am

re: #310 Obdicut

It's really weird seeing the Catholic Church essentially commit suicide by fundamentalism. In cracking down on the nuns, they are not only persecuting one of their last remaining resources, but one of the main groups in the Catholic Church that people have a positive view of.

I don't know if it was a cynical move on their part; whether they are trying to 'compete' with the anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-abortion fundamentalists, or if it's just earnest patriarchy, but it sucks and it will serve to further the diminishment of the Catholic church and the divide between the laity and the hierarchy.

I don't know about suicide. I mean, is this really any different than what the Catholic Church has done before? To me? This is no big surprise. The Catholic Church has been like this on occasion for as long as I've been alive. I never fell for the "oh but they accept evolution" PR campaign. I don't stay up at night thinking about them but for me they will always represent an archaic and superstitious organization. One can readily apply no true Scotsman here. No true Vatican would do such a thing! Yes they would and have.

315 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:18:00am

re: #313 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Durian-- oh god, durian. I freaking hate everything about it, from the smell to the texture to the taste.

316 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:18:23am

I ate shark once. Not shark fin soup, but shark meat stir-fry

317 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:18:33am

re: #311 Obdicut

Ew. ;P

318 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:19:16am

Benny the XVIth has made it clear that his papacy will be about sticking to established dogma.

319 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:19:22am

re: #316 Expand Your Ground

I ate shark once. Not shark fin soup, but shark meat stir-fry

I used to buy shark steaks on purpose for a blackened fish recipe that needed firm fish. Came out really well.

320 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:22:22am

BTW, good morning one and all.

Came in on a usual schedule and got immediately bombarded by a half dozen requests, all claiming the highest priority.

One manager does not understand why I get testy when she badgers me about updates on her requests twice a day. Maybe it's because there are four managers doing it at once? And it's for stuff that I don't implement, I just pass it on to the group that does the work and it is therefore dependent on their work queues. Being a circuit breaker sucks.

321 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:23:07am

re: #314 Gus

I don't know about suicide. I mean, is this really any different than what the Catholic Church has done before?

No, but the world is different now. They are facing a crisis; very few people are entering the priesthood, or the nun orders. Those that are are mostly being drawn from Africa, Asia, and Central and South America, and that is causing yet another schism, since the powers-that-be in the church are not from those areas, in the main. Priests from these areas are usually on board with the social conservatism, but they're also highly, highly concerned with the social justice, poverty angles that the Church is, with this latest edict, attempting to say are of secondary importance.

I'm not saying the church used to be yay pro-feminist, but that there was, for a long time, at least just a minor spat between the US Catholics and the Catholic Church about how US Catholics weren't really into the whole social conservatism thing. The Vatican, now, is choosing to make this into a severe conflict, a hierarchical, almost literally patriarchal decision handed down from above.

322 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:25:07am

re: #321 Obdicut

The church should re-invent itself, maybe have a few characters like Father Guido Sarducci. I might go back!

323 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:25:57am

Bee larvae is also delicious.

[Link: www.environmentalgraffiti.com...]

324 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:27:19am

re: #320 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

BTW, good morning one and all.

Came in on a usual schedule and got immediately bombarded by a half dozen requests, all claiming the highest priority.

One manager does not understand why I get testy when she badgers me about updates on her requests twice a day. Maybe it's because there are four managers doing it at once? And it's for stuff that I don't implement, I just pass it on to the group that does the work and it is therefore dependent on their work queues. Being a circuit breaker sucks.

I just started on a new project. My co-worker showed me the 3 failed projects and warned me DO NOT RECYCLE ANY CODE FROM THESE PROJECTS.

325 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:28:28am

re: #322 Tommy's cone of shame

The church should re-invent itself, maybe have a few characters like Father Guido Sarducci. I might go back!

Remember the new Friendly Jesus from "Dogma"?

326 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:31:08am

re: #324 Learned Mother of Zion

I just started on a new project. My co-worker showed me the 3 failed projects and warned me DO NOT RECYCLE ANY CODE FROM THESE PROJECTS.

I'm busy watching an expansion of SAP functionality that crosses into another client blow up security-wise. Every week there are 2-3 requests to add another group of users to the other client and/or expand the access they have there. Combined with requests from the contractors implementing and testing it for broader and broader security access to check and tweak configuration.

And when the inevitable security audit comes my name is going to be plastered all over the place when they check for who granted the authorizations. At that point I will find out whether or not my manager and the project managers have my back.

327 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:35:30am

re: #326 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

I'm busy watching an expansion of SAP functionality that crosses into another client blow up security-wise. Every week there are 2-3 requests to add another group of users to the other client and/or expand the access they have there. Combined with requests from the contractors implementing and testing it for broader and broader security access to check and tweak configuration.

And when the inevitable security audit comes my name is going to be plastered all over the place when they check for who granted the authorizations. At that point I will find out whether or not my manager and the project managers have my back.

There is a "task management tool" where managers use some equation to determine the amount of time needed to complete a project based on something idiotic like "number of lines of code a programmer can write in an hour" probably on punch cards.

328 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:36:27am

re: #327 Learned Mother of Zion

Does it include the time to brush all the little oakum bits off of you?

/

329 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:39:57am

re: #325 Expand Your Ground
I haven't seen it but I will, looks interesting.

330 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:40:55am

Wordy.

331 sagehen  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:42:22am

re: #307 Learned Mother of Zion

OK, everybody, what is the weirdest thing you have ever eaten?

I am not adventurous when it comes to sampling new food. I once ate goat meat at a Sephardic bar mitzvah in Israel. I don't even remember how it tasted because it was coated in a spicy, hot hot hot sauce.

Most kids will not eat weird food offered to them, it looks like Obama was more adventurous than most kids.

Parts of the sushi menu strike me as odd...

332 Lidane  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:42:45am

As Romney Courts Latinos, GOP Cuts Their Services

Exhibit A: Presumptive presidential nominee Mitt Romney is warning his donors that Republicans must win back Hispanic voters or face “demographic doom.”

Exhibit B: House Republicans are pushing policies that disproportionately harm Hispanics.

This study in contrast leaves Republicans on the horns of an election-year dilemma: As they eagerly seek to rebuild bridges with Hispanics, party leaders are simultaneously pushing bills that would make life harder for members of that same community.

333 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:45:42am

re: #327 Learned Mother of Zion

There is a "task management tool" where managers use some equation to determine the amount of time needed to complete a project based on something idiotic like "number of lines of code a programmer can write in an hour" probably on punch cards.

To be followed by readings from _The Mythical Man-Month_.

;)

334 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 5:47:58am

re: #332 Lidane

As Romney Courts Latinos, GOP Cuts Their Services

I think the party leaders' solution is to take additional steps to make the rank and file citizenry more ignorant and willing to accept their decisions without question.

Oh wait, that's the other hierarchy, isn't it?
/

335 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:03:13am

More Americans Than Projected Filed Jobless Claims Last Week

More Americans than forecast filed applications for unemployment benefits last week, a sign the improvement in labor-market conditions may be stalling.

Jobless claims fell by 2,000 to 386,000 in the week ended April 14 from a revised 388,000 the prior period that was higher than initially estimated, Labor Department figures showed today in Washington. The median forecast of 47 economists surveyed by Bloomberg News called for a drop to 370,000. Revisions to previous data have been larger than normal and the government is trying to determine the cause, a Labor Department spokesman said as the figures were released to the press.

The claims figures raise the possibility the payroll gains that have helped push unemployment down to a three-year low may cool, weighing on consumer spending. Federal Reserve officials, awaiting evidence of a more robust job market and economic growth, have said they’ll keep borrowing costs low through 2014...

336 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:21:04am
337 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:22:30am

In other news...

"I don’t want government telling me what I can do and what I can’t do because I’m an American. But in Monongalia County you can’t smoke a cigarette, you can’t smoke a cigar, you can’t do anything. And I oppose that because I believe in everybody’s individual freedoms and everybody’s individual rights to do what they want to do and I’m a conservative and that’s the way that goes.

But in Monongalia County now, I have to put a huge sticker on my buildings to say this is a smoke free environment. This is brought to you by the government of Monongalia County. Ok?

Remember Hitler used to put Star of David on everybody’s lapel, remember that? Same thing.”

338 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:25:15am

re: #337 Gus

"No, this is not a standard line, nor a misstatement. It is a loss of freedom," Raese said. "As Ronald Reagan once said, there is no such thing as partial freedom, there is only freedom."

Yeah, what a dumbass. By this definition any government anywhere cannot be anything but Hitler.

339 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:27:22am

Unless you can run through subway naked and smeared in feces while waving your collection of kiddie porn, it's not freedom according to Republican Rep. Raese (and Reagan).

340 kirkspencer  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:27:24am

re: #336 Varek Raith

No Savings Are Found From Welfare Drug Tests

It was never about savings, not even from the original sponsor. Oh, he claimed that if the drug use was as rampant as he feared it might, but the intent was to prevent ANY welfare money paying for drugs. By his measures, catching and stopping that ~2% is a success.

341 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:27:30am

re: #338 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Yeah, what a dumbass. By this definition any government anywhere cannot be anything but Hitler.

More stupid than offensive. By now I'm sort of used to listening to this bologna. It's like some old grumpy man complaining to zoning after he gets his zone change application turned down.

342 kirkspencer  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:29:20am

re: #337 Gus

In other news...

Amazing how often stopping you from hurting others with your fun gets you labelled a tyrant.

Even more amazing when it's coming from adults as well as your kids.

343 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:32:16am

re: #337 Gus

In other news...

Godwined right out of the park.

344 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:32:59am

re: #337 Gus

In other news...

And apparently there's no individual right or freedom to not have someone's stinky and unhealthy smoke in your lungs or on your clothes.

Short-sighted and a complete lack of empathy.

345 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:33:36am

re: #343 Varek Raith

Godwined right out of the park.

Image: gif-animation37.gif

346 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:34:18am

re: #337 Gus

In other news...

Lol.

John Engles · Top Commenter
John Raese is absolutely correct with the nazi comparison. Hitler was an avid health nut and anti-smoking extremist.

“The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation.”.
(Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler; 1943).

Hitler was a Leftist.
Hitler's Anti-Tobacco Campaign.

One particularly vile individual, Karl Astel -- upstanding president of Jena University, poisonous anti-Semite, euthanasia fanatic, SS officer, war criminal and tobacco-free Germany enthusiast -- liked to walk up to smokers and tear cigarettes from their unsuspecting mouths. (He committed suicide when the war ended, more through disappointment than fear of hanging.) It comes as little surprise to discover that the phrase "passive smoking" (Passivrauchen) was coined not by contemporary American admen, but by Fritz Lickint, the author of the magisterial 1100-page Tabak und Organismus ("Tobacco and the Organism"), which was produced in collaboration with the German AntiTobacco League.

347 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:35:30am

re: #346 Varek Raith

Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler; 1943

348 iossarian  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:36:56am

These people are deranged.

"You know how there are labels on your clothes telling you how to wash them? Well, let me just say, Star of David. HMMMM?"

349 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:37:44am

re: #348 iossarian

These people are deranged.

"You know how there are labels on your clothes telling you how to wash them? Well, let me just say, Star of David. HMMM?"

And the energy star ratings.
Coincidence?
Methinks not.

350 kirkspencer  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:38:47am

re: #337 Gus

In other news...

I can recall when the main objection to these sorts of regulations was that it would put bars and restaurants out of business because smokers would go somewhere else.

Sadly for those folk, there have been some real world results that have shown this false. The best examples are places like Chattanooga, where the adjacent state (Georgia) went smoke-free. By the smokers' logic, the restaurants and bars across the border would go broke as smokers fled to Chattanooga. Instead, the flow (not severe, but measurable) went the other way. Maybe some smokers went north, but families and non-smokers went south. Within a couple of years, Chattanooga passed a no-smoking law of its own. Objectors floated the economic argument (and got bit by the facts) and so started the "it's impinging on my freedom" meme they use today.

Idiots.

351 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:38:58am

The fake Hitler quote is from Rabbi Lapin's WND column with an imaginary Hitler letter: [Link: www.wnd.com...]

352 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:40:04am

re: #351 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

The fake Hitler quote is from Rabbi Lapin's WND column with an imaginary Hitler letter: [Link: www.wnd.com...]

Color me pink.
Er...
Shocked.
Yeah.

353 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:40:36am

re: #352 Varek Raith

Wingnuts.

354 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:42:02am

Admitted Norway killer Breivik says he trained on video games

Always with the video game angle.
:/

I play Eve. I can totally hop into a F-18 and ...Wait, no, I can't.

355 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:43:15am

More from Lapin's column:

You see, dear Julius, with well-meaning earnestness, most American Jews are solidly behind the ideas I have been describing. In the mistaken belief that they are making America safer for minorities, many American Jews have joined those advocating ever larger and ever more powerful government. In reality, what they are doing is making America more hospitable to our form of socialism. When it eventually arrives, they too will see the real dangers, but by then, it will be too late.

356 iossarian  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:43:31am

re: #350 kirkspencer

The thing is, there needs to be some consideration for smokers, the same way there needs to be consideration for drinkers, unhealthy eaters etc.

That said, I think that banning smoking inside buildings that are to be shared with non-smokers is pretty fair.

357 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:43:35am

re: #355 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

How is this different from Breivik or Kevin McDonald?

358 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:43:43am

re: #337 Gus

In other news...

Hitler wore pants! Everybody take off your pants right now!

359 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:44:22am

re: #354 Varek Raith

Admitted Norway killer Breivik says he trained on video games

Always with the video game angle.
:/

I play Eve. I can totally hop into a F-18 and ...Wait, no, I can't.

Wimpy Sith. /

360 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:44:34am

re: #358 Learned Mother of Zion

Hitler wore pants! Everybody take off your pants right now!

Okay!

361 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:44:36am

re: #358 Learned Mother of Zion

Hitler wore pants! Everybody take off your pants right now!

NOT YOU SB!
/

362 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:45:07am

re: #356 iossarian

The thing is, there needs to be some consideration for smokers, the same way there needs to be consideration for drinkers, unhealthy eaters etc.

That said, I think that banning smoking inside buildings that are to be shared with non-smokers is pretty fair.

Zedushka smokes in the garage, where my car lives. But he parks HIS car in front of the house, so it will keep that "new car" smell.

363 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:45:28am

re: #359 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Wimpy Sith. /

Randomly pressing buttons is ok to do on a PC or a remote.
Not a fighter jet.
:P

364 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:47:09am

re: #356 iossarian

The thing is, there needs to be some consideration for smokers, the same way there needs to be consideration for drinkers, unhealthy eaters etc.

That said, I think that banning smoking inside buildings that are to be shared with non-smokers is pretty fair.

Cleaning a smoker's pc is fun!
/

365 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:47:58am

I don't believe in blanket prohibitions against smoking establishments though. I should be able to open up a bar for smokers only. Hitler of course has nothing to do with this.

366 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:49:06am

re: #316 Expand Your Ground

I ate shark once. Not shark fin soup, but shark meat stir-fry

In Houston my roommate and I used to cook a shark steak on the grill on Sundays and have it while watching football. I always like it.

367 kirkspencer  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:49:10am

re: #356 iossarian

The thing is, there needs to be some consideration for smokers, the same way there needs to be consideration for drinkers, unhealthy eaters etc.

That said, I think that banning smoking inside buildings that are to be shared with non-smokers is pretty fair.

Why? Or perhaps I should ask how much you think should be tolerated?

The problem for smokers is that their smoke affects their environment. You can turn your back but you can't turn off your lungs; your eyes still water from the smoke.

If the unhealthy eater is throwing trash your way or sprays food, they have similar impact. If the drinker gets behind the wheel of a vehicle, or even tries to get close for conversation and groping, they're not to be tolerated.

But in both the latter cases the impact happens only after the event, not through the event itself. Smokers, merely by smoking, affect everybody nearby.

Smoking, like pretty much everything else, if done in private is the business only of the smoker. Smoking in public affects everyone and as such is everyone's business.

368 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:50:27am

re: #365 Gus

I don't believe in blanket prohibitions against smoking establishments though. I should be able to open up a bar for smokers only. Hitler of course has nothing to do with this.

Hitler Nazi!
...
..
.

369 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:51:10am

re: #368 Varek Raith

Hitler Nazi!
...
..
.

I blame Tojo instead.

370 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:52:10am

re: #369 Gus

I blame Tojo instead.

Oh, okay.
Though, Caligula deserves a bit of blame as well.

371 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:52:23am

Doesn't bother me in any event. I don't like bars. I don't like eating out and I can't stand working in offices.

372 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:54:27am

re: #371 Gus

I can't stand working in offices.

It's OK, you can also sit. /

373 kirkspencer  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:55:25am

re: #365 Gus

I don't believe in blanket prohibitions against smoking establishments though. I should be able to open up a bar for smokers only. Hitler of course has nothing to do with this.

I'm mixed about this, myself.

Tennessee's solution is workable, though. If it's a bar or restaurant that only serves people 21 or older, it can be exempt from the ban (but must post notice saying so).

In Georgia the line is 18, for anyone (employee, visitor, or customer). Or if there's a separate (ventilation system and enclosure to prevent crossover) area, or if there's an outdoor area that's not next to the entrance or exit, it can be designated as allowing smoking. In all it's a bit more burdensome.

374 iossarian  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:55:36am

re: #367 kirkspencer

Well, I think drinking in public is pretty much immediate-effect on bystanders via the overall increase in anti-social behavior*. Though I do also think that zoning in the US is overly restrictive in this area (and leads to a lot of unnecessary drink-driving that could be avoided if it were easier to open truly local bars in suburbs).

In the case of smokers I think it's a reasonable compromise to have certain outdoor areas where people can smoke, since this minimizes the impact on non-smokers while not imposing a very strict ban on smokers.

* Not by all drinkers of course, but on average.

375 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 6:55:41am

re: #372 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

It's OK, you can also sit. /

That I can do. But again. I'm too much like George Carlin to join that other crowd. No thanks. This guy is nuts that's for sure. But I'm not going to hang out with that other crowd either.

376 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:00:12am

re: #374 iossarian

Well, I think drinking in public is pretty much immediate-effect on bystanders via the overall increase in anti-social behavior*. Though I do also think that zoning in the US is overly restrictive in this area (and leads to a lot of unnecessary drink-driving that could be avoided if it were easier to open truly local bars in suburbs).

In the case of smokers I think it's a reasonable compromise to have certain outdoor areas where people can smoke, since this minimizes the impact on non-smokers while not imposing a very strict ban on smokers.

* Not by all drinkers of course, but on average.

I kind of agree but I don't think the comparison works. Living near a bar or club though does suck. Even if they're all non-smoking establishments. You get the loud mouths and the inconsiderate idiots screaming until the parking lot empties out soon after 2 AM in most cities.

377 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:00:51am

Oops...

"Living near a bar or club though does suck."

378 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:02:20am
379 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:03:56am

re: #363 Varek Raith

Randomly pressing buttons is ok to do on a PC or a remote.
Not a fighter jet.
:P

Unless you're Michael Douglas taxiing around randomly in an F-16...

380 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:05:27am

re: #367 kirkspencer

Smoking, like pretty much everything else, if done in private is the business only of the smoker. Smoking in public affects everyone and as such is everyone's business.

Smokers who only smoke in the privacy of their own homes are affecting the quality of life for everyone else living in their home. If they live alone, they are affecting the property (if they are renting) or damaging the resale value of their own house.

Smokers pretty much stink up any place they puff.

381 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:06:32am

Uh oh. ;)

382 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:07:13am

re: #376 Gus

I kind of agree but I don't think the comparison works. Living near a bar or club though does suck. Even if they're all non-smoking establishments. You get the loud mouths and the inconsiderate idiots screaming until the parking lot empties out soon after 2 AM in most cities.

There's a bar in the ground floor of the building I live in. I've joked to the front desk guy about wanting to dump a bucket full of water balloons out of my window at 1:30am when that crowd lets out.

He laughs since he lives in the building during the week. In an apartment on a low floor directly above said bar.

383 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:11:12am

re: #381 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Uh oh. ;)

Meh. The world is going to end eventually. It sure won't be because of smokers. It will likely be the cause of non-smokers.

384 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:13:32am
385 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:16:42am

Early afternoon people! Smoke 'em if you got 'em.

386 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:18:03am

Ugh.

387 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:18:25am

re: #385 RogueOne

Early afternoon people! Smoke 'em if you got 'em.

Hey. The "ugh" wasn't meant for you. ;)

389 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:19:02am

Here. Worry about this.

390 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:22:43am

re: #365 Gus

I don't believe in blanket prohibitions against smoking establishments though. I should be able to open up a bar for smokers only. Hitler of course has nothing to do with this.

Indianapolis has been fighting over a smoking ban for years. It really heated up before the Super Bowl. While the elected officials fight over it (because for some reason they have nothing better to do) the establishments have taken it upon themselves to either allow it or not all on their own.

A couple weeks ago the Slippery Noodle (oldest bar in Indiana & a Blues club [Link: www.slipperynoodle.com...] ) went non-smoking. If they went that direction I would expect a lot more places to follow suit.

391 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:23:31am

re: #387 Gus

Hey. The "ugh" wasn't meant for you. ;)

Don't lie, I can take it like a man. Screw you too buddy!//////

392 Kronocide  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:24:12am
And I oppose that because I believe in everybody’s individual freedoms and everybody’s individual rights to do what they want to do and I’m a conservative and that’s the way that goes.

My Derp Translator reads that as because fuck you that's why.

393 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:24:55am

re: #391 RogueOne

Don't lie, I can take it like a man. Screw you too buddy!///

You lie!

//Clutches pearls.

394 iossarian  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:25:31am

re: #390 RogueOne

As noted above, I bet a lot of bars have noticed that they can gain a competitive advantage by going non-smoking even in the absence of legislation, provided there's a critical mass of non-smokers who prefer not to get their clothes/hair/lungs stunk up on a night out.

395 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:26:07am

Some newspaper done some perceived wrong again?

396 lawhawk  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:26:23am

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. Since we're talking about smoking and limiting where/how it can be done, Mayor Bloomberg has come up with another anti-smoking idea - requiring apartment buildings in NYC to post smoking policies or else face fines.

It wouldn't ban smoking from apartment buildings, but it could set the path towards fines/fees for smoking in your own apartment along the lines of rental car/leases/hotel fees for smoking in said locations.

Not a bad idea on the face of it, but given all the pressing issues facing NYC, this isn't exactly the most important way Bloomberg should be spending his political capital. We've got infrastructure that is falling apart, and phase 2 of the 2d Avenue Subway needs financing - things that Bloomberg should be focusing on to insure the city's competitiveness going forward.

But watch some folks to complain that he's going to institute a ban on smoking in your home. That's inaccurate and misleading.

397 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:27:06am

re: #395 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Some newspaper done some perceived wrong again?

Yep. What was that 2 or 3? I lose count sometimes.

398 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:27:50am

re: #396 lawhawk

Sometimes I like Bloomberg. Most of the time though I think he's a dick.

399 lawhawk  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:28:10am

re: #394 iossarian

Best thing that happened was restaurants going non-smoking. You can taste your food - I mean really taste it, without the lingering wafting stench of tobacco on everything. Ditto with bars.

400 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:28:23am

re: #397 Gus

I also see a big fat MBF riding nearby.

401 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:28:25am

Smokers do not even realize how much they stink and how much their stench permeates everything around them.

402 lawhawk  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:28:55am

re: #398 Gus

It's all about his attitude. Patrician.

403 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:28:59am

re: #400 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

I also see a big fat MBF riding nearby.

Where at? Not paying that much attention here.

404 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:29:30am

re: #403 Gus

The one below the newspaper whine.

405 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:30:03am

re: #404 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

The one below the newspaper whine.

Looking...

406 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:30:05am

re: #396 lawhawk

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. Since we're talking about smoking and limiting where/how it can be done, Mayor Bloomberg has come up with another anti-smoking idea - requiring apartment buildings in NYC to post smoking policies or else face fines.

It wouldn't ban smoking from apartment buildings, but it could set the path towards fines/fees for smoking in your own apartment along the lines of rental car/leases/hotel fees for smoking in said locations.

Not a bad idea on the face of it, but given all the pressing issues facing NYC, this isn't exactly the most important way Bloomberg should be spending his political capital. We've got infrastructure that is falling apart, and phase 2 of the 2d Avenue Subway needs financing - things that Bloomberg should be focusing on to insure the city's competitiveness going forward.

But watch some folks to complain that he's going to institute a ban on smoking in your home. That's inaccurate and misleading.

Well, is Bloomberg coming up with this stuff out of whole cloth, or is a group(s) lobbying for it? Given that landlords already have lease clauses for deposits to cover cleaning and such when you leave I half-expect this is potentially being advocated as allowing additional deposit/fee or charges for cleaning carpets and furnishings that are smoke contaminated.

407 lawhawk  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:30:11am

re: #401 Learned Mother of Zion

Mrs. Lawhawk reminds me of this when I occasionally smoke cigars with a friend (happens only 3-4 times a year)...

I guess if you did the same, Zedushka might get the hint?

408 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:30:44am

re: #394 iossarian

As noted above, I bet a lot of bars have noticed that they can gain a competitive advantage by going non-smoking even in the absence of legislation, provided there's a critical mass of non-smokers who prefer not to get their clothes/hair/lungs stunk up on a night out.

I would think so. I don't do a lot of bar hopping around Indy anymore but I still go down a few times a year. Last time I went during the Super Bowl week I would guess more than 1/2 the places are already non-smoking. A lot of Hoosiers smoke and if the most famous bar in the area decided it was worth it to go non-smoking, financially that has to be the way things are trending.

409 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:30:52am

re: #407 lawhawk

Mrs. Lawhawk reminds me of this when I occasionally smoke cigars with a friend (happens only 3-4 times a year)...

I guess if you did the same, Zedushka might get the hint?

He gets very insulted every time I mention how much he stinks.

410 SpikeDad  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:30:58am

re: #337 Gus

In other news...

Ha. Ha. I get it. Keeping other peoples dangerous smoke from harming my health because I didn't choose to smoke it is basically the same as rounding up 12 Million Jews and other undesirables and murdering them, burning them and taking their property.

Yes, I can see the similarity. Both have smoke involved. Both are unhealthy activities (breathing second hand smoke and being gassed and incinerated).

Yes, you have uncovered something I would never had thought of. I will keep my eye out for your future postings.

411 lawhawk  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:31:52am

re: #406 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Seems to be a whole new policy. Can't imagine any realty group is pushing this - after all, they can already limit activities pursuant to coop/rental agreements.

412 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:32:33am

re: #410 SpikeDad

I think you crossed a wire somewheres...
;)

413 Kronocide  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:33:17am

IKEA UPPLEVA:


OMG WTF FFS
414 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:33:55am

re: #404 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

The one below the newspaper whine.

OK. I see. Yeah, of course it's true that the police in other parts of the ME are horrible monsters. But that remind me of people that tell me "oh yeah try living in Saudi Arabia and see what freedums you have there!" It's like comparing yourself with the lower common denominator. Yeah, we're much better than the Taliban. So what.

415 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:33:55am

New outrageous outrage!
Romney comments spark 'CookieGate' special

"I'm not sure about these cookies. They don't look like you made them," Romney said to the woman sitting next to him "No, no. They came from the local 7-eleven, bakery, or whatever."

The comments quickly spread on Twitter, with some pointing to the remarks as an example of Romney being out of touch to the point of confusing 7-11 with a bakery.

Lytle said local media have turned out in droves in the last 24 hours, asking about the remarks, as well as members of the community wanting to take part in the 'CookieGate' special.

416 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:35:52am

re: #413 Kronocide

IKEA UPPLEVA:

[Embedded content]
OMG WTF FFS

Uh oh. The Ikea cult.

417 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:36:15am

re: #416 Gus

Uh oh. The Ikea cult.

Satanic.

418 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:36:32am

re: #415 Killgore Trout

I'm not quite sure what his comment was supposed to mean.

419 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:37:49am

re: #418 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

I'm not quite sure what his comment was supposed to mean.

Me neither but I'm pretty sure it's outrageous. Maybe a coded reference for his desire to torture and kill another pet or something.

420 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:38:01am

re: #415 Killgore Trout

New outrageous outrage!
Romney comments spark 'CookieGate' special

I agree. That's really not outrageous. Just very douchey.

421 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:38:53am

re: #415 Killgore Trout

Cookie-gate? Shih-Tzu Snikerdoodles?

422 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:41:00am

re: #120 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't much reckon Mel as a Catholic.

Actually, I don't reckon the Catholic League much as Catholics either.

I concur

423 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:41:18am

re: #421 RogueOne

Cookie-gate? Shih-Tzu Snikerdoodles?

Smoke-gate!!!!

424 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:42:43am

re: #423 Gus

I just like saying Shih Tzu.

425 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:42:50am

re: #423 Gus

Smoke-gate!!!

Oops! Not referring to that weirdo from WV.

426 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:43:26am

Morning all!

427 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:43:32am

Actually that cookiegate thing is from yesterday. It's already a dead story.

428 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:45:50am

I have no issues with non-smoking areas, buildings etc. I certainly don't want children to see lots of people smoking either. One reason I smoke is because I grew up around smokers.

What I can't stand are people who walk 40 feet out of their way to the smoking area and tell me how I am damaging their health.

Yes, it happens.

I never know if I should blow smoke or laugh in their face.

429 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:46:37am

re: #428 ggt

Whiners.

430 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:47:07am

re: #428 ggt

I have no issues with non-smoking areas, buildings etc. I certainly don't want children to see lots of people smoking either. One reason I smoke is because I grew up around smokers.

What I can't stand are people who walk 40 feet out of their way to the smoking area and tell me how I am damaging their health.

Yes, it happens.

I never know if I should blow smoke or laugh in their face.

Usually they have a drink in their hand.

I tell them I gave up drinking and I thought that was enough for one life-time.

431 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:47:25am

Morning Lizardim. Cold and rainy here in the wild north country. What's new in Lizardia?

432 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:47:25am

re: #422 ggt

I concur

Meh. They're Catholics.

433 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:48:45am

re: #432 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Meh. They're Catholics.

There are Whackos everywhere. I guess anyone who believes in the Sacraments and Saints are technically Catholics.

What I don't get are people who say they follow Jesus and then don't live the one rule he is said to have given us.

Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

I don't follow Jesus (even tho I am in a Catholic Family). Yet, I can certainly see the value in the rule. It's a universal truth.

434 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:50:21am

No true Buddhist.

//

435 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:50:55am

re: #433 ggt

The Church doesn't quite follow that rule IMHO, judging by their actions.

436 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:51:47am

re: #435 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

The Church doesn't quite follow that rule IMHO, judging by their actions.

As an adult I've learned that the Church is not the same as the Individuals who represent it.

437 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:52:01am

Gotta go,

Have a great day all!

438 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:52:33am

re: #436 ggt

As an adult I've learned that the Church is not the same as the Individuals who represent it.

Oh, I'm not saying that, but surely we can agree that the Pope is a Catholic? ;)

439 lawhawk  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:53:06am

Gov. Scott is creating a task force to review/recommend changes to stand your ground and other gun laws in FL.

Can't come soon enough. It was bad law, and bad outcomes were inevitable.

SYG shouldn't be allowed as a defense to preempt investigations into potential crimes. It should be limited to the home, business, vehicle - and certainly not allowed for someone who initiates an incident (such as with Zimmerman who followed Martin, and Martin is shot and killed by Zimmerman). It could be allowed as an affirmative defense, not short-circuiting the entire process.

440 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:53:24am

And I'm not saying the Pope is quite as bad as Bill Donohue. But I see lots of things I could complain about his behavior if I cared.

441 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:53:57am

Breivik is a lunatic.

442 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:54:26am

re: #441 Gus

Breivik is a lunatic.

Nah. He's from Mars. Or Uranus.

443 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:54:59am

re: #442 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Nah. He's from Mars. Or Uranus.

He sure has a massive head.

444 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:55:18am

So much for cranial measurements.

//

445 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:55:49am

re: #444 Gus

As I say, it's not only the processor (although that counts), but also the software.

446 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:56:17am

John Derpyshire pulled out his calipers and is measuring Breivik's skull width and depth.

//

447 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:56:19am

LGF slows down for me...

448 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:57:57am

So Breivik apparently is trying to defend himself by saying "the government didn't allow me to build a bomb!" so I had to use guns instead. Or something.

449 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:58:32am

Ya think?

450 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 7:58:51am

Breivik is a superficially smart fellow (esp. as he could pull it off without a hitch), but those smarts is not all that counts. You also should be able to be use them wisely, as well as have no virus in your mind.

451 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:00:17am

re: #448 Gus

Well, his manifesto pretty much lays out his defense strategy beforehand.

452 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:03:30am

re: #451 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Well, his manifesto pretty much lays out his defense strategy beforehand.

These guys are Tweet blogging the trial:

Trygve Sorvaag

Paul Brennan

453 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:03:46am

IQs of the Nazi leadership tried in Nuremberg were well above average. Look where it got them. Or rather what it did not save them from.

454 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:04:01am

This might explain that big melon of his...

455 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:04:34am

Morning, you dog eating honcos.:)

456 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:04:47am

re: #454 Gus

Yeah, he mentioned steroids.

457 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:05:13am

re: #455 Cannadian Club Akbar

Morning, you dog eating honcos.:)

Wanna grab a bite to eat? I know a great Spot!

458 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:05:14am

re: #455 Cannadian Club Akbar

Morning, you dog eating honcos.:)

You prefer eating cats?

459 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:05:43am

re: #457 Darth Vader Gargoyle

Wanna grab a bit to eat? I know a great Spot!

I'll have the Collie-Flower.

460 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:05:56am

re: #458 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

You prefer eating cats?

Hamster.
/

461 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:06:22am

re: #460 Cannadian Club Akbar

Hamster.
/

Hamster. The other ham meat.

462 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:06:23am

re: #460 Cannadian Club Akbar

Hamster.
/

Hamster is not kosher.

463 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:06:39am

re: #457 Darth Vader Gargoyle

Wanna grab a bit to eat? I know a great Spot!

Today is hot dog with jalapeno relish day!!!!

464 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:06:57am

re: #459 Gus

I'll have the Collie-Flower.

Lunch special today is the German Shepherds' pie.

465 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:07:32am

re: #464 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Lunch special today is the German Shepherds' pie.

Yo soy Taco Bell.

//

466 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:07:59am

You're making me so hungry I could eat a horse.

467 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:08:34am

re: #445 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

As I say, it's not only the processor (although that counts), but also the software.

And the input data. Garbage in, garbage out.

468 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:09:00am

re: #466 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

You're making me so hungry I could eat a horse.

The loser at the track needs to make a contribution in some way.

469 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:09:05am

re: #467 RayFerd

And the input data. Garbage in, garbage out.

Still software, largely. Error-checking.

470 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:09:27am

re: #467 RayFerd

And the input data. Garbage in, garbage out.

I suspect poor parameter configuration as well.

471 lawhawk  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:10:18am

re: #456 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

That could work both ways - judges could use that to find him insane (because of steroids affecting brain chemistry/etc.,) or that he knew what he was doing and took a specific course of action that would maximize his chances to succeed in murdering as many people as possible.

Add to that that he's stopped doing his fist-salute out of respect of victims families who complained (he would appear to know right from wrong by that indication).

472 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:12:30am

re: #471 lawhawk

I don't actually think he knows right from wrong, but not in the sense that would make him crazy or not able to be stand trial. Sociopaths should still be tried. And yes, they should not take steroids into account, since it was a part of the plan, not its cause.

473 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:12:56am
474 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:14:15am

It's like, alcohol is an aggravating circumstance, not mitigating one.

475 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:14:57am

re: #474 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

It's like, alcohol is an aggravating circumstance, not mitigating one.

Watch your mouth!!!!
///

476 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:15:46am

re: #474 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

It's like, alcohol is an aggravating circumstance, not mitigating one.

I'm an Aries, I do not need mood enhancers, I need mood dampeners...

477 lawhawk  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:16:29am

Blast from the past time - FBI/NYPD investigating a lead in the Etan Patz case. Patz disappeared in 1979 and was about my age at the time. He was the first kid put on the side of a milk carton for missing kids. There have been occasional reports about leads being followed since then, but he essentially disappeared without a trace.

Jose Antonio Ramos was believed to be involved in the disappearance, and was declared responsible in 2004 (he was a prime suspect all along, but no evidence could directly tie him to the crime).

The Manhattan DA reopened the case in 2010.

Patz was legally declared dead in 2001.

Ramos is scheduled to be released from prison in November after serving 20 years for child molestation in PA, so there's some urgency in trying to find new evidence that could tie him to the disappearance.

478 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:19:50am

re: #365 Gus

I don't believe in blanket prohibitions against smoking establishments though. I should be able to open up a bar for smokers only. Hitler of course has nothing to do with this.

In the good old days, when Tobacco was new to the Old World, people went to smoker's clubs to enjoy tobacco in public. They can have them with eating and non-eating sections so that smokers are not disturbed by passive dining

479 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:22:39am

The biggest non-surprise, non-real-news story:

Indianapolis Colts will pick Andrew Luck as quarterback, ESPN says
[Link: www.indystar.com...]

480 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:22:58am

This dude/chick is hot!!!
///
[Link: www.abcactionnews.com...]

481 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:23:23am

re: #415 Killgore Trout

New outrageous outrage!
Romney comments spark 'CookieGate' special

maybe they were they dog biscuits

482 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:23:42am

re: #479 RogueOne

The biggest non-surprise, non-real-news story:

Indianapolis Colts will pick Andrew Luck as quarterback, ESPN says
[Link: www.indystar.com...]

In related news, I might drink today.
///

483 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:24:10am

re: #480 Cannadian Club Akbar

This dude/chick is hot!!!
///
[Link: www.abcactionnews.com...]

Oh...kay...

///

484 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:24:48am

About that cookie Romney thing, I still don't get: did he diss the cookies or made a compliment?

485 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:25:37am

re: #484 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

About that cookie Romney thing, I still don't get: did he diss the cookies or made a compliment?

Got me. I haven't done any research on this matter yet.

//

486 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:25:42am

re: #481 Expand Your Ground

maybe they were they dog biscuits

3 Dog peanut butter cookies taste like people peanut butter cookies. I tried 'em.

487 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:27:14am

re: #484 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

About that cookie Romney thing, I still don't get: did he diss the cookies or made a compliment?

I seems to have to do with the fact that Romney is ostensibly so out of touch with Real Americans that he does not know that a 7-11 store is a convenience market without a bakery section.

OUTRAGE!!!

/

488 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:27:45am

re: #486 RogueOne

3 Dog peanut butter cookies taste like people peanut butter cookies. I tried 'em.

I had a friend growing up who would eat dog biscuits for money. He also ate a 3 inch cockroach for 2 hits of blotter.

489 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:27:56am

re: #487 Expand Your Ground

OK, but did he diss or praise?

490 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:28:53am

re: #487 Expand Your Ground

I seems to have to do with the fact that Romney is ostensibly so out of touch with Real Americans that he does not know that a 7-11 store is a convenience market without a bakery section.

OUTRAGE!!!

/

My 7-11 has many baked goods.

491 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:29:53am

re: #490 Cannadian Club Akbar

My 7-11 has many baked goods.

Cheese danish. Mmmm...

492 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:29:57am

re: #487 Expand Your Ground

I'm pretty sure they have their own brand of baked stuff. Don't a lot of the convenience/gas stations have food stuffs they make there?

493 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:30:04am

re: #490 Cannadian Club Akbar

Then I am more out of touch with America than Mitt Romney.

Gotta go now and deposit some more money in my overseas accounts...

494 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:30:10am

re: #490 Cannadian Club Akbar

My 7-11 has many baked goods.

If by baked you mean rocks, yes.

495 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:31:05am

re: #489 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

OK, but did he diss or praise?

Never buy freshly cooked food any place that sells motor oil next to their chicken fingers.

496 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:31:18am

re: #494 Varek Raith

If by baked you mean rocks, yes.

If you disrespect Dolly Madison, we're fighting!!!
///

497 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:31:58am

re: #439 lawhawk

Gov. Scott is creating a task force to review/recommend changes to stand your ground and other gun laws in FL.

Can't come soon enough. It was bad law, and bad outcomes were inevitable.

SYG shouldn't be allowed as a defense to preempt investigations into potential crimes. It should be limited to the home, business, vehicle - and certainly not allowed for someone who initiates an incident (such as with Zimmerman who followed Martin, and Martin is shot and killed by Zimmerman). It could be allowed as an affirmative defense, not short-circuiting the entire process.

That's pretty much what I'm thinking. I went ahead and Paged that story. Subtitle is "what took so long?'

If not for some arguably overzealous prosecutors here in California, I'd say our laws are a pretty good model to go by. But I admit there has to be a tilt in favor of full investigation in all cases of potentially deadly force. Not just guns. That means the innocent will sometimes be charged and let a jury sort it out. Some few of them will wrongly go to jail.

Immunity is just crazy. I feel the obligation to retreat has to be weak enough to allow a husband to defend himself and his wife or kids in public, not just at home. Not everyone can outrun a thug.

498 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:32:57am

re: #489 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

OK, but did he diss or praise?

[Link: nymag.com...]

Video there.

499 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:34:18am

Wait a minute.

500 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:34:42am

They said that they didn't make those cookies.

501 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:34:43am

re: #499 Gus

Wait a minute.

I don't have that long.

502 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:35:12am

re: #487 Expand Your Ground

I seems to have to do with the fact that Romney is ostensibly so out of touch with Real Americans that he does not know that a 7-11 store is a convenience market without a bakery section.

OUTRAGE!!!

/

Romney was just surprised because he thought the hollow tree bakery had been bought out and liquidated by Bain Capital in 2008.
/

503 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:35:36am

"Did you make those cookies?" Romney asked. They all respond with "those were not, no, no."

504 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:35:48am

re: #498 Gus

Thanks. So it's not about whether 7-11 being a bakery, but about Romney being an elitist douche. Had Obama said something like this ever, he would have been torn apart.

505 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:35:52am

Uh. This is a bullshit story.

506 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:36:41am

re: #504 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Thanks. So it's not about whether 7-11 being a bakery, but about Romney being an elitist douche. Had Obama said something like this ever, he would have been torn apart.

Maybe I'm an elitist too because I looked at those cookies and they look like gross factory made cookies. Blech.

507 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:37:09am

This is interesting....
Iran commander says army ready for military action on disputed Gulf island if diplomacy fails

n’s ground forces commander warned that should diplomacy fail, the military is ready for action over a disputed Gulf island controlled by Iran but also claimed by the United Arab Emirates, state TV reported Thursday.

Gen. Ahmad Reza Pourdastan said Iranian forces are capable of confronting any offender against Iran’s sovereignty over the strategic Abu Musa island in the Persian Gulf.

It was the first time an Iranian military commander commented on the issue since President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad last week visited Abu Musa.

“We do not allow any country to carry out an invasion,” Pourdastan said. “If these disturbances are not solved through diplomacy, the military forces are ready to show the power of Iran to the offender. Iran will strongly defend its right.”

The island dominates the approach to the Strait of Hormuz, a key waterway in the Gulf through which about one-fifth of the world’s oil supply passes. Iran’s Revolutionary Guards and U.S. Navy warships patrol the narrow waterway.

Iran took control of tiny Abu Musa and two nearby islands — the Greater and Lesser Tunb — in 1971, after British forces left the region. Tehran maintains that an agreement signed eight years before its 1979 Islamic revolution between the shah and the ruler of one of the UAE’s seven emirates, Sharjah, gives it the right to administer Abu Musa and station troops there.

There was no agreement on the other two islands, but regardless, the UAE insists they belonged to the emirate of Ras al-Khaimah until Iran captured them by force days before the city-states united and declared independence from Britain, also in 1971.

It looks like they're threatening to continue to nibble away at UAE territory.

508 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:37:32am

Comment there:

Honestly? Team Mittens on this one. 7-11 is crap.

509 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:38:33am

Besides. I thought that the Southland Corporation was um, evil or something.

510 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:38:46am

re: #506 Gus

Maybe I'm an elitist too because I looked at those cookies and they look like gross factory made cookies. Blech.

You're not running for President.

511 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:39:27am

re: #510 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

You're not running for President.

Meh. No one cares and the majority of Americans never even heard about this.

512 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:40:14am

I'm going to file "cookiegate" in my "I don't give a crap" drawer.

513 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:40:38am

re: #490 Cannadian Club Akbar

My 7-11 has many baked goods.

Customers don't count.

514 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:41:23am

re: #511 Gus

He should have said "Those cookies look like a sick wolf took a dump on the plate." That'd have gotten people up and going.

515 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:41:33am

re: #513 Darth Vader Gargoyle

Customers don't count.

Well played, sir. Well played.

516 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:41:34am

re: #512 Gus

I'm going to file "cookiegate" in my "I don't give a crap" drawer.

Too bad my "Mitt is a douche" drawer is full.

517 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:41:39am

re: #511 Gus

Meh. No one cares and the majority of Americans never even heard about this.

I have a hard time believing anyone is going to vote based on what cookies the candidates like....unless they're snickerpoodles

518 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:42:30am

Romney 'not going to rise to' Obama's 'silver spoon' comment
Team Obama had better get their shit together. It makes them look petty, Mitt gets to take the high road and pretend that he'd rather talk about issues. Drop the outrageous outrages and petty insults. It only helps Mitt.

519 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:42:39am

re: #517 RogueOne

I have a hard time believing anyone is going to vote based on what cookies the candidates like...unless their snickerpoodles

I could get behind a candidate who agrees that Thin Mints are the best cookie EVAR!
//

520 Kronocide  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:42:46am

A plate full of Douche Cookies.

521 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:42:54am

re: #517 RogueOne

I have a hard time believing anyone is going to vote based on what cookies the candidates like...unless their snickerpoodles

ARUGULA!!!!
//

522 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:43:57am

re: #518 Killgore Trout

Romney 'not going to rise to' Obama's 'silver spoon' comment
Team Obama had better get their shit together. It makes them look petty, Mitt gets to take the high road and pretend that he'd rather talk about issues. Drop the outrageous outrages and petty insults. It only helps Mitt.

Yeah, no.

523 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:44:47am

re: #516 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Too bad my "Mitt is a douche" drawer is full.

You ever been to a 7-11? I've been going to on recently just because their ooga booga cigarettes are really cheap. Otherwise, I can't stand going to most 7-11. This one is OK but some of them are kind of creepy. Bleh. It's just a freaking franchise owned the Southland Corporation.

524 Kragar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:45:13am

West Virginia Senate Candidate Compares Anti-Smoking Regulations To The Holocaust

RAESE: I don’t want government telling me what I can do and what I can’t do because I’m an American. But in Monongalia County you can’t smoke a cigarette, you can’t smoke a cigar, you can’t do anything. And I oppose that. … I have to put a huge sticker on my buildings to say this is a smoke free environment. This is brought to you by the government of Monongalia County. OK?

Remember Hitler used to put Star of David on everybody’s lapel, remember that? Same thing.

GET THE FUCK OUT!!!

525 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:45:43am

Here! Have a 7-11 cookie.

The National Center for Policy Analysis (NCPA) is a non-profit American conservative think tank[1] whose goals are to develop and promote private alternatives to government regulation and control. Topics addressed include reforms in health care, taxes, Social Security, welfare, education and environmental regulation.

The NCPA was founded in February 1983[2] by British businessman Antony Fisher[3] together with Dallas businessmen Russell Perry (CEO of Republic Financial Services),[4] Wayne Calloway (CEO of Frito-Lay), John F. Stephens (CEO of Employers Insurance of Texas),[5] and Jere W. Thompson (CEO of the Southland Corporation).

526 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:46:09am

re: #523 Gus

My smokes are $4.25 at 7-11 and they have gourmet samiches.

527 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:47:01am

re: #526 Cannadian Club Akbar

My smokes are $4.25 at 7-11 and they have gourmet samiches.

Mine are $3.55 a pack. Beat that! ;)

528 blueraven  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:47:24am

re: #518 Killgore Trout

Romney 'not going to rise to' Obama's 'silver spoon' comment
Team Obama had better get their shit together. It makes them look petty, Mitt gets to take the high road and pretend that he'd rather talk about issues. Drop the outrageous outrages and petty insults. It only helps Mitt.

Outrageous!

So, its OK when Romney says Obama never had a job, or something like "In order to do the job, it helps to have had a job."

Much better!

529 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:47:45am

Image: axDkS.jpg

That's a big "gun".

530 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:48:07am

re: #513 Darth Vader Gargoyle

Customers don't count.

I'm saving some water balloons for them too. There's a convenience store in the building next to the bar. They do a lot of shouting at 2am as well.

Now doing something about 7am is not a good idea. That's when the small flock of police cars are there while the men in blue get coffee.

531 sattv4u2  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:48:07am

re: #526 Cannadian Club Akbar

My smokes are $4.25 at 7-11 and they have gourmet samiches.

Decision time

You're out of smokes AND you're starving

You have $5.00 in your pocket when you walk into the 7/11

What do you walk out with??

532 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:48:07am

re: #523 Gus

I didn't think you were allowed to go into a 7-11 without an Indian accent?

Image: joe_biden.jpg

533 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:49:04am

re: #531 sattv4u2

Decision time

You're out of smokes AND you're starving

You have $5.00 in your pocket when you walk into the 7/11

What do you walk out with??

Candy cigars?

534 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:50:04am

re: #531 sattv4u2

Decision time

You're out of smokes AND you're starving

You have $5.00 in your pocket when you walk into the 7/11

What do you walk out with??

The cash register and a hostage?
//

535 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:50:04am

re: #518 Killgore Trout

Romney 'not going to rise to' Obama's 'silver spoon' comment
Team Obama had better get their shit together. It makes them look petty, Mitt gets to take the high road and pretend that he'd rather talk about issues. Drop the outrageous outrages and petty insults. It only helps Mitt.

Outrageous! It's almost like the man is responding to four years of being called an elitist! How petty!

536 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:51:02am

re: #531 sattv4u2

Decision time

You're out of smokes AND you're starving

You have $5.00 in your pocket when you walk into the 7/11

What do you walk out with??

From the store I live by I think the typical answer is five losing lottery tickets.
/

537 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:51:34am

re: #506 Gus

Maybe I'm an elitist too because I looked at those cookies and they look like gross factory made cookies. Blech.

I knew this incredible perfectionist lady whose homemade cookies were to meticulously baked and uniformly packed that they looked like they were factory made.

538 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:51:56am

re: #527 Gus

Mine are $3.55 a pack. Beat that! ;)

I remember the good ol' days when I could buy a carton of cigarettes for $5 at the PX. I'm old.

539 blueraven  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:51:59am

re: #531 sattv4u2

Decision time

You're out of smokes AND you're starving

You have $5.00 in your pocket when you walk into the 7/11

What do you walk out with??

A donut and a cheap cigar.

540 Kragar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:52:28am

Right-Wing Extremism Is Greatest Domestic Terror Threat

Though the terrorist attack on Oklahoma City happened nearly two decades ago, right-wing extremist terrorism remains a significant domestic threat to American security. The Department of Homeland Security released a report in 2009 stating that the economic and political climate bears important similarities to the conditions of the early 1990s when right-wing extremism experienced a dramatic resurgence. These conditions, including the public debate around hot-button issues such as immigration, gun control, and abortion, along with the election of the first African-American president, present “unique drivers for right-wing radicalization and recruitment,” the report said.

Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano eventually ordered the report withdrawn because of significant political backlash from mainstream conservatives. But the report, which was originally commissioned by the Bush administration, also found that “lone wolves and small terrorist cells embracing violent rightwing extremist ideology are the most dangerous domestic terrorism threat in the United States.”

A look at terrorist incidents since the Oklahoma City bombing, including both successful and disrupted ideologically-motivated attacks, backs up the conclusions of the DHS report:

Image: unaddressed-threats.jpg

541 lawhawk  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:52:37am

re: #518 Killgore Trout

One of the candidates was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, and it wasn't Obama. /the Ghost of Ann Richards

Considering the vitriol against Obama on even the most innocuous items, pushback is late in coming and even then it's mild compared to the hate spewed the President's way.

Romney really doesn't get what most Americans are dealing with these days; for all his claims that Obama's out of touch, Romney isn't any different/better.

Oh, and as far as convenience stores go, no one get between me and a WaWa. They've got good coffee, and make pretty good fresh sandwiches on the fly...

542 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:52:46am

re: #539 blueraven

A donut and a cheap cigar.

Ah, the Bill Clinton response.

543 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:53:18am

re: #537 Expand Your Ground

I knew this incredible perfectionist lady whose homemade cookies were to meticulously baked and uniformly packed that they looked like they were factory made.

The whole thing looked like it was set-up. Almost scripted. The Romney-cookie thing that is. Don't care about it one way or the other.

544 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:53:30am

re: #542 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Ah, the Bill Clinton response.

Very, very good!

545 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:54:02am

re: #538 RogueOne

I remember the good ol' days when I could buy a carton of cigarettes for $5 at the PX. I'm old.

Damn. How old are you? 100?

//

546 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:55:05am

re: #545 Gus

Damn. How old are you? 100?

//

That was late 80's, early 90's. Carton of Marlboro was like $8, Dorals were $5.

547 Kragar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:55:15am
548 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:55:47am

re: #546 RogueOne

That was late 80's, early 90's. Carton of Marlboro was like $8, Dorals were $5.

That's a PX discount?

549 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:56:30am

Alrighty, peasants. Today is my hot dog with jalapeno relish day. $3 for a dog and a Coke. Suck it, Trebeck!!!! See y'all tomorrow!!!

550 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:56:32am

re: #541 lawhawk

One of the candidates was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, and it wasn't Obama. /the Ghost of Ann Richards

Considering the vitriol against Obama on even the most innocuous items, pushback is late in coming and even then it's mild compared to the hate spewed the President's way.

Romney really doesn't get what most Americans are dealing with these days; for all his claims that Obama's out of touch, Romney isn't any different/better.

Oh, and as far as convenience stores go, no one get between me and a WaWa. They've got good coffee, and make pretty good fresh sandwiches on the fly...

What sort of reputation does WaWa have? I knew someone from Oklahoma who got up to Pennsylvania and visiting a WaWa was one of his goals while being there.

And in a 4-5 stretch on this one street there are three convenience stores: The independent I live near, a 7-11, and a WaWa. The local teens tend to hang out in the 7-11 given the tangle of bikes they leave on the sidewalk.

551 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:57:45am

re: #548 Gus

That's a PX discount?

Yeah, prices were much cheaper and no state tax. Not sure what it's like now.

552 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:58:26am

re: #547 Kragar

Barber: Failure to Overturn 'Obamacare' is Judicial Activism Through Omission

/facepalm

The Humpty Dumpty definition of "judicial activism" I see. Term adjusts to fit whatever meaning he wants like it was made out of spandex. Close fitting and shows way more than we usually want to see.

553 sattv4u2  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 8:59:44am

re: #546 RogueOne

That was late 80's, early 90's. Carton of Marlboro was like $8, Dorals were $5.

I remember $0.65 in vending machines,, slightly higher in stores per pack ,,, a LOT less per carton (per pack) when traveling through North Carolina

554 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:00:34am

IIRC, and there's no guarantee I am, I used to get packs out of the machine at the laundry mat when I was a kid for $.75/pack in the early 80's.

555 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:00:55am

Neocon Obama warmonger!
Leon Panetta: US military planning for greater role in Syria conflict

US military officials are crafting possible new strategies to 'protect the Syrian people' from the Assad regime, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta said Thursday on Capitol Hill. NATO's Libya intervention may be a model.

556 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:01:40am

re: #555 Killgore Trout

Neocon Obama warmonger!
Leon Panetta: US military planning for greater role in Syria conflict

No pictures allowed.

557 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:01:42am

re: #554 RogueOne

IIRC, and there's no guarantee I am, I used to get packs out of the machine at the laundry mat when I was a kid for $.75/pack in the early 80's.

I remember paying a little over a buck a pack in the late 80's.

558 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:01:57am

If anything, Romney's slight about 7-11 is counter-intuitive to his campaign. The right answer WRT to a Tea Party or wingnut response to 7-11 cookies would be "those are great cookies." This keeping in line with a corporate point of view. The reverse of that is that him putting down 7-11 cookies is instead more of a liberal POV.

559 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:04:22am

re: #557 Killgore Trout

I remember paying a little over a buck a pack in the late 80's.

In the 80s I was an anti-smoking nut. ;)

560 makeitstop  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:04:55am

re: #557 Killgore Trout

I remember paying a little over a buck a pack in the late 80's.

Yeah, I'll take the old man prize on this one. When I started smoking, cigarettes cost all of 35 cents a pack.

561 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:05:05am

Wow, Nugent's even worse than I thought.

562 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:05:46am

Now I want a cigarette.

563 lawhawk  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:06:12am

re: #560 makeitstop

Heh... I remember paying less than $1.00 for a gallon of gas. /okay, it wasn't all that long ago, but it might as well have been...

564 iossarian  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:06:21am

re: #518 Killgore Trout

Romney 'not going to rise to' Obama's 'silver spoon' comment
Team Obama had better get their shit together. It makes them look petty, Mitt gets to take the high road and pretend that he'd rather talk about issues. Drop the outrageous outrages and petty insults. It only helps Mitt.

It's great news for John McCain, is what it is.

565 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:06:27am

re: #553 sattv4u2

I remember $0.65 in vending machines,, slightly higher in stores per pack ,,, a LOT less per carton (per pack) when traveling through North Carolina

re: #560 makeitstop

Yeah, I'll take the old man prize on this one. When I started smoking, cigarettes cost all of 35 cents a pack.

Mr. w has you beat.

He remembers $0.18 packs in vending machines. You'd put in two dimes, and there would be two pennies in the pack as change. He and his brother would walk along the roads with a stick and whack the discarded packs. They could tell which ones still had the pennies in them, and would collect them.

566 lawhawk  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:06:37am

re: #561 ProGunLiberal

Well, he is known as the Motor City Madman for a reason.

567 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:07:21am

re: #559 Gus

In the 80s I was an anti-smoking nut. ;)

I was just out with my kids in a park in Frankfurt and the ground there was covered in cigarette butts. Nearly enough to turn me into a militant anti-smoker, even though my kids are already old enough not to be picking up cigarette butts and putting them in their mouths like they did when they were toddlers...

568 sattv4u2  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:07:56am

re: #559 Gus

In the 80s, 90's, 00's, 10's I was a n anti-smoking nut. ;)

Sorry ,, ya pitch a softball, I'm taking it yard!!!

//

569 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:08:11am

re: #566 lawhawk

Madman doesn't go far enough to describe him. It's euphemistic in this case. He is just a depraved asshole.

570 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:08:29am

re: #567 Expand Your Ground

I was just out with my kids in a park in Frankfurt and the ground there was covered in cigarette butts. Nearly enough to turn me into a militant anti-smoker, even though my kids are already old enough not to be picking up cigarette butts and putting them in their mouths like they did when they were toddlers...

I put my cigs out by flicking off the coal and after letting it cool down I stick the butt in my pocket for later disposal.

571 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:08:57am

re: #561 ProGunLiberal

Wow, Nugent's even worse than I thought.

I know a lot of Midwestern guys who pretty much share his sensibilities: most of them are not as extreme or outspoken, but basically Ted.

572 iossarian  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:09:04am

re: #555 Killgore Trout

Neocon Obama warmonger!
Leon Panetta: US military planning for greater role in Syria conflict

When Obama starts pressuring intelligence agencies to fabricate evidence that Syria is constructing weapons of mass destruction in order to justify an invasion, is when I will begin to worry about this.

573 makeitstop  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:09:07am

re: #563 lawhawk

Heh... I remember paying less than $1.00 for a gallon of gas. /okay, it wasn't all that long ago, but it might as well have been...

When I graduated high school and started college, I had a '59 VW Beetle, and gas cost 30 cents a gallon. I could fill up the tank for less than 5 bucks, drive back and forth to school all week and have gas left over.

574 lawhawk  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:09:15am

Dana Loesch and Nugent "converse" following USSS talk with Nugent over his comments.

575 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:09:24am

re: #566 lawhawk

Well, he is known as the Motor City Madman for a reason.

That's exactly what popped into my head when I heard he was spouting off again.

I've seen him a couple times in concert. I missed last year but some friends of mine said he was saying some pretty outrageous stuff, much worse than the "i'll be dead or in jail".

576 Kragar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:10:17am

The fact Bon Scott and Keith Moon died in their prime while Nugent is still alive proves that the idea of a kind and loving god is a crock of shit.

577 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:10:27am

re: #564 iossarian

It's great news for John McCain, is what it is.

Polls are showing that Condi is a favorable VP candidate among Republican and Republican leaners. He could launch a serious ticket.

578 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:11:00am

re: #571 Expand Your Ground

No, I mean the DKOS page. It is reasonably sourced, including to music sites.

How is Ted Nugent not in jail?

579 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:11:07am

re: #577 Killgore Trout

Polls are showing that Condi is a favorable VP candidate among Republican and Republican leaners. He could launch a serious ticket.

Not gonna happen.

580 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:11:27am

re: #570 Gus

I put my cigs out by flicking off the coal and after letting it cool down I stick the butt in my pocket for later disposal.

field stripping...you're a good man. My problem is forgetting they're in my back pocket and tossing my clothes into the laundry. The wife gets angry when she has to pull out dozens of cigarette butts.

581 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:11:42am

re: #576 Kragar

I take it to the contrary.

They were so good, Allah wanted an eternal heaven tour for these guys.

582 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:12:11am

re: #580 RogueOne

field stripping...you're a good man. My problem is forgetting they're in my back pocket and tossing my clothes into the laundry. The wife gets angry when she has to pull out dozens of cigarette butts.

Oh yeah. I hate that. Then you wind up with those fluffy filters in the laundry.

583 blueraven  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:12:31am

re: #577 Killgore Trout

Polls are showing that Condi is a favorable VP candidate among Republican and Republican leaners. He could launch a serious ticket.

Ain't gonna happen.

584 iossarian  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:12:45am

See, here's the thing. People like to point to Saddam's oppression of his people as why invading Iraq proves that Bush/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz were just amazing misunderstood humanitarian dudes or something, and not war criminals.

But that was never the rationale until after the invasion when it became crystal clear (as many of us had been suggesting in the build-up) that they had lied about a bunch of stuff in making their actual pro-war argument that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, and that invading was about US national security.

So let's have a policy debate, by all means, about whether or not it's right to invade other countries in order to protect the population from oppressive dictators. But let's also not pretend that this has anything to do with opposition to the war in Iraq or the propaganda under which it was carried out.

585 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:12:47am

re: #575 RogueOne

I've seen him a couple times in concert. I missed last year but some friends of mine said he was saying some pretty outrageous stuff, much worse than the "i'll be dead or in jail".

Remember the clip of him toting an assault rifle and shouting "Suck on this Obama!"?

Please tell me (or not) that Mitt Romney was are (or not) of this when we announced how pleased he was with Ted's endoresment...

586 iossarian  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:13:25am

re: #577 Killgore Trout

Polls are showing that Condi is a favorable VP candidate among Republican and Republican leaners. He could launch a serious ticket.

The etch-a-sketch and the lying war criminal. What could be better.

587 makeitstop  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:14:51am

re: #570 Gus

I put my cigs out by flicking off the coal and after letting it cool down I stick the butt in my pocket for later disposal.

Me, too. My wife is vehemently against tossing butts on the ground. She even looks disapprovingly at me when I field strip, and then I remind her that the tobacco and paper are the bio-degradable parts of the cigarette.

588 Kragar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:14:52am

re: #581 ProGunLiberal

I take it to the contrary.

They were so good, Allah wanted an eternal heaven tour for these guys.

Cthulhu doesn't have a heaven, just endless depths of madness in the void.

589 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:14:59am

re: #577 Killgore Trout

Polls are showing that Condi is a favorable VP candidate among Republican and Republican leaners. He could launch a serious ticket.

Last I heard, Condi wants nothing to do with the GOP nomination.

590 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:15:05am

I'm not comfortable with throwing around the phrase "war criminal." You have to actually be convicted to qualify as one. Those are serious charges to throw about.

591 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:15:29am

re: #584 iossarian

In a twist of Irony, the NTC did find tons of undeclared Yellowcake Uranium in Libya after the Civil War.

Qaddafi only made it look like he stopped his Nuke Program. When no one was looking, he was probably going to start it again.

592 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:15:30am

re: #558 Gus

Sorry, my Chrome hanged up on me. So, to continue this small issue, though it's unnecessary, it's not about him slighting 7-11 or even that "good local company". For me the point is more about his manners. You don't make a point about "shitty" food at a friendly gathering, esp. if you're running for office. Eat a cookie or don't eat a cookie, but if you're not out of touch, don't talk about the cookie. That's about it for me. No biggie, since that's something I would expect from this silver spoon guy ;)

593 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:15:30am

Here we go....

594 Kragar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:16:06am

re: #593 RogueOne

Here we go...

Again on our own? Going down the only road we've ever known?

595 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:16:06am

re: #570 Gus

I put my cigs out by flicking off the coal and after letting it cool down I stick the butt in my pocket for later disposal.

Somebody told me that the State of Washington has a deposit on cigarette filters of 5cents each: you keep them in the cellophane and return them when you buy a new pack. Sounds like a reasonable solution to me...

596 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:16:25am

re: #592 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Sorry, my Chrome hanged up on me. So, to continue this small issue, though it's unnecessary, it's not about him slighting 7-11 or even that "good local company". For me the point is more about his manners. You don't make a point about "shitty" food at a friendly gathering, esp. if you're running for office. Eat a cookie or don't eat a cookie, but if you're not out of touch, don't talk about the cookie. That's about it for me. No biggie, since that's something I would expect from this silver spoon guy ;)

I know but I think it was a stunt. You can tell the whole thing was almost scripted.

597 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:16:29am

re: #579 Gus

Not gonna happen.

Maybe not. I'm not sure if she'd take the offer. She might do it as preparation for a future presidential run herself.

598 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:16:50am

re: #586 iossarian

The etch-a-sketch and the lying war criminal. What could be better.

Yep.

599 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:17:01am

re: #592 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

To use a Baseball analogy, he was born on Third Base.

600 iossarian  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:17:22am

Grasping at straws here.

Condi might join the ticket!

People are focusing on the trivial issues I keep posting about instead of real policy, which I never discuss in a rational way!

601 allegro  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:17:36am

re: #563 lawhawk

Heh... I remember paying less than $1.00 for a gallon of gas. /okay, it wasn't all that long ago, but it might as well have been...

I remember being able to fill the Pontiac Catalina tank for less than $10... and get the oil checked, the windshield washed, and green stamps. ;P

602 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:17:40am

re: #592 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

don't talk about the cookie.

Rotating title.

603 Kragar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:18:14am

re: #599 ProGunLiberal

To use a Baseball analogy, he was born on Third Base.

I thought Mormons waited until they were married before hitting Third base.

604 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:18:39am

re: #599 ProGunLiberal

To use a Baseball analogy, he was born on Third Base.

With a silver mitt in his mouth.

605 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:19:07am

re: #599 ProGunLiberal

To use a Baseball analogy, he was born on Third Base.

I have to look up baseball analogies on wiki :P

606 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:19:40am

re: #563 lawhawk

Heh... I remember paying less than $1.00 for a gallon of gas. /okay, it wasn't all that long ago, but it might as well have been...

I was in Moscow in 1992 before they ended massive gas price subsidies: I filled my entire tank for the equivalent of $1.20...

607 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:20:20am

re: #602 wrenchwench

Rotating title.

Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball.

608 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:20:25am

re: #597 Killgore Trout

Maybe not. I'm not sure if she'd take the offer. She might do it as preparation for a future presidential run herself.

She's stated dozens of times already that she has no interest in going back into politics let alone being a public politician such as a VP. She's also stated no interest in running for president ever. She's done with public service. Besides that she really does have too much Bush/Iraq War baggage. Even though I disagree with the "war criminal" meme.

609 kirkspencer  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:20:51am

re: #597 Killgore Trout

Maybe not. I'm not sure if she'd take the offer. She might do it as preparation for a future presidential run herself.

Probably not if she is planning such.

The last VP/VP candidate to be later elected as president was Nixon, and he had to wait till the laughter died down.

610 Kragar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:21:00am

re: #607 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball.

Do not look directly at Happy Fun Ball.

611 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:21:12am

re: #603 Kragar

Oh, hardy har har.

I got the analogy from this article.

Examining who worked for their wealth and who had it handed to them, UFE said Bill Gates was "born on first base" because "the success of his venture did not depend on substantial family money or assets". To score, he had to run most of the way round the field. Chicken magnate Frank Perdue was "born on second base", because he inherited his father's egg farm and went on to breed poultry. J. Paul Getty jnr started on third base because he inherited an oil fortune from his father.

612 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:21:40am

re: #607 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball.

...with a cookie.

613 RogueOne  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:22:34am

re: #608 Gus

She still wants to be head of the NFL.

If I could have dinner with any politico (Of the last 15 years) it'd be with her and one of the Clintons.

614 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:22:36am

re: #576 Kragar

The fact Bon Scott and Keith Moon died in their prime while Nugent is still alive proves that the idea of a kind and loving god is a crock of shit.

No, it just shows that drug abuse is very dangerous...

616 iossarian  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:22:53am

As a non-lawyer, I think that it's pretty obvious that waterboarding and otherwise "severly interrogating" detainees captured during various middle east military engagements constitutes a war crime, as do the various mistreatments perpetrated at Abu Ghraib.

Who is responsible for these crimes? They seem to have arisen more or less directly from policy devised by the Bush administration. Actual legal proceedings would probably be required to find out exactly who came up with the directives.

617 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:23:15am

re: #600 iossarian

Grasping at straws here.

Condi might join the ticket!

People are focusing on the trivial issues I keep posting about instead of real policy, which I never discuss in a rational way!

I don't see what's in it for Condi except a lot of frustration. Look at the very ugly flack she got over her statement about the Martin shooting. And the ongoing accusation she's a RINO by virtue of her affiliation with Bush. I also have a hard time imagining her doing the requisite pandering and demagogue-ing to make the wingnutty power brokers happy.

618 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:23:23am

re: #611 ProGunLiberal

Oh, hardy har har.

I got the analogy from this article.

Molly Ivans (look her up) used to say about GW Bush, "He was born on third base and thinks he hit a triple."

619 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:24:08am

re: #615 Gus

Didn't he say some fantastically racist shit in the past?

620 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:24:48am

re: #619 ProGunLiberal

Didn't he say some fantastically racist shit in the past?

I don't know. I don't pay much attention to Nader and most of these anti-war types.

621 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:24:58am

re: #584 iossarian

See, here's the thing. People like to point to Saddam's oppression of his people as why invading Iraq proves that Bush/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz were just amazing misunderstood humanitarian dudes or something, and not war criminals.

But that was never the rationale until after the invasion when it became crystal clear (as many of us had been suggesting in the build-up) that they had lied about a bunch of stuff in making their actual pro-war argument that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, and that invading was about US national security.

So let's have a policy debate, by all means, about whether or not it's right to invade other countries in order to protect the population from oppressive dictators. But let's also not pretend that this has anything to do with opposition to the war in Iraq or the propaganda under which it was carried out.

But the poster child for "invade to protect population from oppressive dictator" is North Korea. And that was never going to be an option, so another sales approach had to be made that could be made Iraq-specific enough to marginally sell.

622 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:25:10am

re: #620 Gus

I don't know. I don't pay much attention to Nader and most of these anti-war types.

Even though I consider myself to be anti-war as well.

623 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:25:14am

One can wrangle about whether or not she should be called a war criminal, it's a fair debate to have.

However there is no denying that she's a torture apologist at the very least.

624 Kragar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:25:45am

re: #619 ProGunLiberal

Didn't he say some fantastically racist shit in the past?

Nader peaked at Corvair.

625 iossarian  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:26:09am

re: #615 Gus

Burp...

Ralph Nader: Obama ‘Should Be Impeached’ For ‘Committing War Crimes’

Bleh.

I tell you what, if it was my innocent son who had been swept up off the street because someone gave his name to a US informant, and he'd had his fingernails pulled out by some CIA goon in Guantanemo Bay, I would be upset.

Wouldn't you?

626 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:26:30am

re: #623 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

One can wrangle about whether or not she should be called a war criminal, it's a fair debate to have.

However there is no denying that she's a torture apologist at the very least.

Well. Jimmy Carter signed off on East Timor. You do know the history of East Timor I'm sure. Shall we go through the Vietnam War as well? If that's the case then they're all war criminals.

627 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:26:38am

re: #624 Kragar

I found what I was thinking of:

Nader came under fire during and after the campaign for some comments made regarding the candidacy of Barack Obama. In June 2008, Nader commented in an interview with the Rocky Mountain News that Obama was trying to "talk white" and trying to "appeal to white guilt not by coming on as black is beautiful, black is powerful." Obama campaign spokeswoman Shannon Gilson responded, "We are obviously disappointed with these very backward-looking remarks."

On election night, Nader said about Barack Obama:

To put it very simply, he is our first African-American president, or he will be. And we wish him well. But his choice, basically, is whether he is going to be Uncle Sam for this country or Uncle Tom for the giant corporations.
Later that night, Fox News correspondent Shepard Smith asked Nader, "I just wonder if in hindsight you wished you'd used a phrase other than 'Uncle Tom.'" Nader responded, "Not at all."

628 lawhawk  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:26:38am

re: #602 wrenchwench

Because he did it all for the nookie... to get the cookie... /fred durst

629 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:26:58am

re: #625 iossarian

I tell you what, if it was my innocent son who had been swept up off the street because someone gave his name to a US informant, and he'd had his fingernails pulled out by some CIA goon in Guantanemo Bay, I would be upset.

Wouldn't you?

Yes. Well. It's still happening.

630 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:27:18am

re: #626 Gus

I don't care about what Jimmy Carter did or did not do though.

631 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:27:40am

re: #626 Gus

Some more so than others (Hi Reagan).

Although Kissinger was the worst of the lot by leaps and bounds.

632 Gus  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:28:01am

Bye.

633 iossarian  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:28:16am

re: #629 Gus

Yes. Well. It's still happening.

Right. And I get the realpolitik that to some extent you can't go back and prosecute everything, otherwise you'd never get to the end of it.

On the other hand you have to try to stop these things from happening. And pretending that crimes weren't committed is not the way to go about it, either.

634 wrenchwench  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:29:39am

re: #627 ProGunLiberal

I found what I was thinking of:

Oooh, I had no idea. Thanks.

635 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:29:45am

re: #623 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

One can wrangle about whether or not she should be called a war criminal, it's a fair debate to have.

I don't think so. To me it's an indication of silly over the top hyperpartisanship. Waterboarding is a worthy topic but I tune out as soon as I see fantasies of rounding up the Bush regime. It's just stupid.

636 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:30:57am

re: #635 Killgore Trout

I don't think so. To me it's an indication of silly over the top hyperpartisanship. Waterboarding is a worthy topic but I tune out as soon as I see fantasies of rounding up the Bush regime. It's just stupid.

Of course you would say that.

However saying that war criminals should be investigated and then punished is not controversial, no matter how much you might want it to be.

637 iossarian  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:31:50am

re: #635 Killgore Trout

I don't think so. To me it's an indication of silly over the top hyperpartisanship. Waterboarding is a worthy topic but I tune out as soon as I see fantasies of rounding up the Bush regime. It's just stupid.

To me, the best analogy is places like South Africa and Northern Ireland. They still have a bunch of problems to work through. But a big part of what they have done right is recognizing that what went on in the past was wrong, and that it should be avoided in the future.

I'm a realist, I don't think the Bush people are going to go to jail for what they did. But denying that crimes were committed is disgusting. Again, if it had been your kid that got tortured and killed for nothing, without any kind of apology or reason given, you would probably think differently.

638 Kragar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:32:33am

Romney To Deliver Commencement At Anti-Gay Liberty University

Liberty University is to Universities as Taco Bell is to authentic Mexican food.

639 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:33:22am

re: #638 Kragar

Romney To Deliver Commencement At Anti-Gay Liberty University

Liberty University is to Universities as Taco Bell is to authentic Mexican food.

So LU is all that will be left when the University Wars end?
//

640 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:33:37am

re: #637 iossarian

Of course, it helps that in Ireland that the Republicans(not ours)/IRA were clearly in the wrong, and always in a Minority. (Only about 35-38% of Northern Irish People wanted independence/fusion with Ireland at all times)

641 iossarian  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:34:10am

re: #638 Kragar

Romney To Deliver Commencement At Anti-Gay Liberty University

Liberty University is to Universities as Taco Bell is to authentic Mexican food.

But he's the same as Obama! He's not a radical wingnut!

Really it's just a slight difference! If Condi joins the ticket, we've got a winner!

642 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:34:26am

And no, of course in the foreseeable future most of the potential war criminals won't be punished, so people who care for them shouldn't get their knickers in a twist. But reminding of such clear-cut war crimes as torture and of perpetrators of such clear-cut crimes is absolutely politically legitimate.

643 Kragar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:34:45am

re: #639 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

So LU is all that will be left when the University Wars end?
//

Maniac has responded with sarcastic remark!

644 iossarian  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:36:26am

re: #640 ProGunLiberal

Of course, it helps that in Ireland that the Republicans(not ours)/IRA were clearly in the wrong, and always in a Minority. (Only about 35-38% of Northern Irish People wanted independence/fusion with Ireland at all times)

That is an incredibly biased view of the Northern Ireland situation. The 35-38% of people you're talking about was the oppressed Catholic minority.

Note I'm not disagreeing that the IRA were "in the wrong", but they weren't alone there. The system that basically prevented Catholics from being full members of society was more to blame.

645 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:36:40am

re: #638 Kragar

Romney To Deliver Commencement At Anti-Gay Liberty University

Liberty University is to Universities as Taco Bell is to authentic Mexican food.

When is he going to speak to the Log Cabin Republicans? Bush did...

646 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:38:05am

re: #643 Kragar

Maniac has responded with sarcastic remark!

"All Universities are Liberty University!"

Unfortunately, I think there are a lot of folk out there who wish it were true.
:(

647 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:40:00am

re: #644 iossarian

Eh....

Though Catholic Emancipation was achieved in 1829, in large part by Daniel O'Connell, largely eliminating legal discrimination against Catholics (around 75% of Ireland's population), Jews and Dissenters, O'Connell's long-term goals of Repeal of the 1801 Union and Home Rule were never achieved. The Home Rule movement served to define the divide between most nationalists (often Catholics), who sought the restoration of an Irish Parliament, and most unionists (often Protestants), who were afraid of being a minority in a Catholic-dominated Irish Parliament and tended to support continuing union with Britain. Unionists and Home-Rule advocates countered each other during the career of Charles Stuart Parnell, a repealer, and onwards.

648 kirkspencer  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:40:54am

re: #638 Kragar

Romney To Deliver Commencement At Anti-Gay Liberty University

Liberty University is to Universities as Taco Bell is to authentic Mexican food.

That's not very fair to Taco Bell, you know.

649 Kragar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:42:13am

re: #648 kirkspencer

That's not very fair to Taco Bell, you know.

As Nickelback is to Rock Music?

650 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:42:24am

re: #648 kirkspencer

Taco Bell isn't fair to my bowels.
/

651 sattv4u2  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:43:25am

re: #650 Tommy's cone of shame

Taco Bell isn't fair to my bowels.
/

Your bowels aren't fair to public rest rooms!!

652 iossarian  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:43:32am

re: #647 ProGunLiberal

Eh...

I've got to go, but you might want to check up on Catholic representation in civic society before 1990. When you've got a 100% Protestant police force, it's a bit hard to make the claim that everyone is equal under the law.

Anyway, sorry to have been a bit snappy, but opposition to the IRA and its unhappy history notwithstanding, Northern Irish Catholics had a lot to complain about and many good reasons to pursue self-determination.

653 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:43:54am

re: #642 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

And no, of course in the foreseeable future most of the potential war criminals won't be punished, so people who care for them shouldn't get their knickers in a twist. But reminding of such clear-cut war crimes as torture and of perpetrators of such clear-cut crimes is absolutely politically legitimate.

One of the reasons why we have a politically stable society is because we don't arrest and prosecute the previous government after a new election. It's the kind of thing they do in 3rd world countries and only creates a cycle of paranoia and politicians not wanting to yield power for fear of their political opponents. It also makes them more willing to round up their opponents as a first strike. It leads also leads to revenge prosecutions and parties unwilling to share power. It's just bad for democracy and says much more about the people who fantasize about such things.

654 kirkspencer  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:45:24am

re: #635 Killgore Trout

I don't think so. To me it's an indication of silly over the top hyperpartisanship. Waterboarding is a worthy topic but I tune out as soon as I see fantasies of rounding up the Bush regime. It's just stupid.

The Bush Regime, maybe.

But waterboarding was done and it's considered torture (again). Torture against non-nationals during an overt international conflict is a war crime. The CIA insists they had a presidential authorization, other say the authorization was from someone one tier below him.

It irks me that we did not see an investigation, much less charges and trial. I think in the long run it is as bad for our nation as Ford's blanket pardon.

655 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:45:49am

Woo hoo!!
Just got word we're getting rewired for data in my building!
...anyone need slightly used string and 72 dixie cups???
I'll make you a great deal...really!

656 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:45:52am

re: #652 iossarian

And the Protestants had good reason to resist the Catholics. They had paranoia about how they would be treated by the Roman Catholic Church.

Remember, that was a period at which the Catholic Church supported people like Franco and Salazar.

657 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:46:36am

re: #653 Killgore Trout

One of the reasons why we have a politically stable society is because we don't arrest and prosecute the previous government after a new election. It's the kind of thing they do in 3rd world countries and only creates a cycle of paranoia and politicians not wanting to yield power for fear of their political opponents. It also makes them more willing to round up their opponents as a first strike. It leads also leads to revenge prosecutions and parties unwilling to share power. It's just bad for democracy and says much more about the people who fantasize about such things.

Torture is bad for democracy. Not prosecuting people for torture is bad for democracy. That's what they do in 3rd world countries: ignore crimes of the powerful.

658 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:47:08am

re: #656 ProGunLiberal

Example:

More specifically religious anti-Protestantism in Ireland was evidenced by the acceptance of the Ne Temere decrees in the early 20th century, whereby the Catholic Church decreed that all children born into mixed Catholic-Protestant marriages had to be brought up as Catholics. Protestants in Northern Ireland had long held that their religious liberty would be threatened under a 32-county Republic of Ireland, due to that country's Constitutional support of a "special place" in government for the Roman Catholic Church. This was amended in the Republic of Ireland in 1970 however.

659 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:47:47am

Hannity asks Romney about Obama eating dog as a child

“Tell us about your dog and what did you think of the revelation — it went viral today — in the president’s book, he admitted eating dog when he was growing up in Indonesia and grasshoppers,” Hannity asked Romney. “And I didn’t make that up.”

“I — Sean, I’m going to talk about jobs and the economy and getting America working again,” Romney replied. “I’m going to talk about the debt. I’m going to talk about the measures people care about.”

“All of these extraneous stories and attacks… nah,” he added.

But other members of Romney’s team weren’t so shy when it came to attacking Obama for something he did before the age of 10.

“In hindsight, a chilling photo,” Romney strategist Eric Fehrstrom tweeted along with a photo of Obama and his current dog, Bo.

I guess it's tolerable that Romney didn't play along, but this seems continuous with his other responses to people saying ugly things: don't disagree, just avoid.

I can't see how you can hold a six-year-old responsible for what they eat in a foreign land, and frankly I think this whole idea has legs because it paints Obama as foreign and not-white. It's way too much like the racist tropes that Asians eat dogs (...and do so indiscriminately so keep your pets locked up.)

660 Kronocide  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:48:12am

2012: Year of the Dog

661 blueraven  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:48:31am

re: #658 ProGunLiberal

Example:

I have no dog in this hunt, but you should really cite your sources.

662 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:49:36am

re: #659 The Ghost of a Flea

The revelation - published in 2004 - that went viral today?

663 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:50:01am

re: #653 Killgore Trout

If we fail to arrest and try people who commit war crimes, then we do have a problem with the that power works in this country. You shouldn't be able to escape at least a trial for war crimes, if you commit them.

It's a problem, that it would look overtly political most of the time if an incoming administration did prosecute war crimes committed in the previous one.

664 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:50:10am

But impeachment for lying about a blowjob is OK.

665 blueraven  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:50:33am

re: #659 The Ghost of a Flea

Hannity asks Romney about Obama eating dog as a child

I guess it's tolerable that Romney didn't play along, but this seems continuous with his other responses to people saying ugly things: don't disagree, just avoid.

I can't see how you can hold a six-year-old responsible for what they eat in a foreign land, and frankly I think this whole idea has legs because it paints Obama as foreign and not-white. It's way too much like the racist tropes that Asians eat dogs (...and do so indiscriminately so keep your pets locked up.)

Hannity is a delusional, ignorant POS. period.

666 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:50:42am

Stan!

667 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:51:37am

re: #662 Expand Your Ground

The revelation - published in 2004 - that went viral today?

They think it'll fight back against the Seamus story. As though people who eat animals are worse than those who abuse them.

It's an obvious failure of logic, but it's a talking point from the GOP, what'd you expect?

668 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:51:57am

re: #662 Expand Your Ground

The quote block is the exchange between Hannity and Romney. Hannity speaks first.

Actually,the quote about eating dog is apparently pulled from Obama's 1995 book.

It's only a "revelation" because someone dredged it up and is hyping it.

669 Kragar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:52:31am

re: #664 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

But impeachment for lying about a blowjob is OK.

Its more about the lying than the blowjob.
/

670 Targetpractice  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:52:40am

re: #659 The Ghost of a Flea

Hannity asks Romney about Obama eating dog as a child

I guess it's tolerable that Romney didn't play along, but this seems continuous with his other responses to people saying ugly things: don't disagree, just avoid.

I can't see how you can hold a six-year-old responsible for what they eat in a foreign land, and frankly I think this whole idea has legs because it paints Obama as foreign and not-white. It's way too much like the racist tropes that Asians eat dogs (...and do so indiscriminately so keep your pets locked up.)

Mitt must think it great, he can just continue to act like the "adult" by not answering and instead accusing the "Vast Left Wing Conspiracy" of trying to drag the discussion away from the economy, while Hannity and other schmucks do the dirty work for him.

671 Kronocide  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:53:26am

re: #665 blueraven

Hannity is a delusional, ignorant POS. period.

Hannity is a respected establishment journalist propagandist. He's Breitbart's Cronkite.

672 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:53:33am

re: #661 blueraven

Wikipedia sourced from this.

Another Article about it.

Someone want to go through Irish Law Books?

Irish Law Times Report LXXXVI 1952, pages 49–73.

673 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:54:04am

re: #659 The Ghost of a Flea

Hannity asks Romney about Obama eating dog as a child

I guess it's tolerable that Romney didn't play along, but this seems continuous with his other responses to people saying ugly things: don't disagree, just avoid.

I can't see how you can hold a six-year-old responsible for what they eat in a foreign land, and frankly I think this whole idea has legs because it paints Obama as foreign and not-white. It's way too much like the racist tropes that Asians eat dogs (...and do so indiscriminately so keep your pets locked up.)

Really Hannity's running with this. I think Hannity eats crap because he's so full of ir it.

674 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:54:36am

So if ever a former President is found to have raped someone while in office or before that, he shouldn't be charged. Because stability! "Stability" is Putin's main appeal, BTW.

675 blueraven  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:54:43am

re: #662 Expand Your Ground

The revelation - published in 2004 1995 - that went viral today?

Fixd
Re-published in 2004

676 kirkspencer  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:55:23am

re: #669 Kragar

Its more about the lying that the blowjob.
/

which invites the response:
Lying about sex will get you impeached. Lying about WMDs will get you re-elected.
//

677 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:55:51am

re: #676 kirkspencer

which invites the response:
Lying about sex will get you impeached. Lying about WMDs will get you re-elected.
//

Yep.

679 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:58:21am

re: #665 blueraven

Hannity is a delusional, ignorant POS. period.

I don't think he's delusional. He knows exactly what he's doing and doesn't care that it's dishonest.

680 Kronocide  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:58:30am

Ha, says the Christian.

681 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:58:32am

re: #588 Kragar

Cthulhu doesn't have a heaven, just endless depths of madness in the void.

Then Keith Moon is probably the entertainment director for one of those depths.

682 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 9:59:26am

re: #679 The Ghost of a Flea

I don't think he's delusional. He knows exactly what he's doing and doesn't care that it's dishonest.

Agree.

683 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:00:58am

Mitt Romney is way, way too sensitive

President Obama, 2009:
None of us were born with a silver spoon in our mouths, but we got a great education.
President Obama, 2010:
Neither Harry or I were born with a silver spoon in our mouths. Our families were working folk. And we understand how hard it is sometimes.
President Obama, 2011:
Most of you weren’t born with a silver spoon in your mouth.
President Obama, yesterday:
Somebody gave me an education. I wasn’t born with a silver spoon in my mouth. Michelle wasn’t. But somebody gave us a chance.

684 Kronocide  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:01:15am

Nothing like an Christian ignorant moron saying Jews don't understand anti-semitism.

685 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:01:51am

re: #683 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

So a question: did Romney's campaign fail to investigate? Or were they competent but ran with this anyway?

686 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:02:23am
687 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:02:33am

re: #683 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Mitt Romney is way, way too sensitive

He dishes it out e.g. claiming Obama's never had a "real" job but he can't take it.

688 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:02:39am

re: #663 Obdicut

If we fail to arrest and try people who commit war crimes, then we do have a problem with the that power works in this country. You shouldn't be able to escape at least a trial for war crimes, if you commit them.

It's a problem, that it would look overtly political most of the time if an incoming administration did prosecute war crimes committed in the previous one.

I look forward to the "Elect Romney - He will bring Bush to Justice!" ads.
/

689 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:04:39am

re: #605 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

I have to look up baseball analogies on wiki :P

Look up "infield fly rule", that will really blow your mind :-)

690 Kragar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:05:25am

re: #686 Learned Mother of Zion

WTF?

It all makes sense once you factor in that Robertson is an insane bigot with no understanding of the world beyond the shit he makes up.

691 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:06:02am

re: #684 Kronocide

Nothing like an Christian ignorant moron saying Jews don't understand anti-semitism.

But he can see the horns in his mind's eye!!!
///

692 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:07:11am

Robertson says insanely ignorant shit like this all the time.

693 Kragar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:07:33am

re: #692 HappyWarrior

Robertson says insanely ignorant shit like this all the time.

Its actually pretty standard.

694 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:07:56am

I don't like Cenk, but this is epic:

695 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:08:34am

re: #689 RayFerd

Look up "infield fly rule", that will really blow your mind :-)

Some gibberish. :(

696 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:08:34am

re: #688 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

I look forward to the "Elect Romney - He will bring Bush to Justice!" ads.
/

Bingo!

697 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:08:41am

re: #693 Kragar

Its actually pretty standard.

Indeed, I'm more shocked when he says something sane like pot should be legal.

698 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:10:28am

re: #697 HappyWarrior

Indeed, I'm more shocked when he says something sane like pot should be legal.

Because he probably uses it himself (for "legitimate medical reasons" of course)

700 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:12:26am

re: #653 Killgore Trout

One of the reasons why we have a politically stable society is because we don't arrest and prosecute the previous government after a new election. It's the kind of thing they do in 3rd world countries and only creates a cycle of paranoia and politicians not wanting to yield power for fear of their political opponents. It also makes them more willing to round up their opponents as a first strike. It leads also leads to revenge prosecutions and parties unwilling to share power. It's just bad for democracy and says much more about the people who fantasize about such things.

Calling for an investigation is not the same thing as a summary arrest and prosecution.

And the last statement is just ridiculous. You're arguing that demanding responsibility from the governed is bad for democratic government?

701 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:12:49am
702 Targetpractice  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:12:49am

Seems the House GOP's setting itself up for another game of Chicken, only this time it'll happen a month before the election:

House, Senate GOP At Odds Over Honoring Debt-Limit Deal

House Republicans have set themselves up for a big fight with the White House over funding the federal government later this year — but their Senate counterparts aren’t exactly enthusiastic about it.

At a Thursday hearing to set federal funding levels for next year, 11 of 13 GOP appropriators, including Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, voted to support capping annual spending at the level the parties agreed to during last summer’s fight over raising the debt limit. House Republicans, by contrast, were forced by their conservative members to lower that cap, in violation of the agreement, and on Wednesday prompted an early veto threat from the White House. The contretemps could easily lead to a government shutdown fight one month before the election — one Senate Republicans would apparently prefer to avoid.

703 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:13:28am

re: #518 Killgore Trout

Romney 'not going to rise to' Obama's 'silver spoon' comment
Team Obama had better get their shit together. It makes them look petty, Mitt gets to take the high road and pretend that he'd rather talk about issues. Drop the outrageous outrages and petty insults. It only helps Mitt.

Outrage! Except it was not an insult and Obama did not mean Romney.

704 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:13:38am

re: #699 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Good thing another administration hadn't come in in the meantime, or it would have been destabilizing for the university.
/

705 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:15:48am

re: #685 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

So a question: did Romney's campaign fail to investigate? Or were they competent but ran with this anyway?

Someone in Romney's campaign is hyping "Obama ate a dog, therefore he might eat Bo" on Twitter.

Chances are pretty good that not a shit was given that Obama has used the "silver spoon" line before. It's good political theater.

706 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:16:07am

Good afternoon lizards!

What's this 'silver spoon' outrage about?

707 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:17:05am

re: #706 NJDhockeyfan

Good afternoon lizards!

What's this 'silver spoon' outrage about?

Romney is so vain he thinks this song is about him, doesn't he, doesn't he, doesn't he.

708 Kragar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:17:10am

re: #706 NJDhockeyfan

Good afternoon lizards!

What's this 'silver spoon' outrage about?

People noticing that Rick Schroeder was a lame actor.

709 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:17:17am

re: #706 NJDhockeyfan

Good afternoon lizards!

What's this 'silver spoon' outrage about?

Nothing. Romney's campaign pretended Obama slighted Romney with his silver spoon comment, when in fact he used the phrase throughout the years.

710 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:17:29am

re: #705 The Ghost of a Flea

Someone in Romney's campaign is hyping "Obama ate a dog, therefore he might eat Bo" on Twitter.

Chances are pretty good that not a shit was given that Obama has used the "silver spoon" line before. It's good political theater.

Obama said that while he was served dog and other weird shit to eat, he didn't say he liked it.

711 sattv4u2  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:18:05am

re: #706 NJDhockeyfan

Good afternoon lizards!

What's this 'silver spoon' outrage about?

Ricky was a little snot

[Link: sharetv.org...]

712 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:18:12am

re: #705 The Ghost of a Flea

Someone in Romney's campaign is hyping "Obama ate a dog, therefore he might eat Bo" on Twitter.

Chances are pretty good that not a shit was given that Obama has used the "silver spoon" line before. It's good political theater.

So, Obama is keeping it classy, while Romney's campaign swims in the gutter. Clear!

713 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:18:22am

re: #709 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

Nothing. Romney's campaign pretended Obama slighted Romney with his silver spoon comment, when in fact he used the phrase throughout the years.

What was the Obama comment?
(sorry, just got here)

714 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:18:25am

re: #706 NJDhockeyfan

Good afternoon lizards!

What's this 'silver spoon' outrage about?

Obama used the phrase "I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth."

It's been taken as a dig against Romney...and the Romney camp has responded by being all "we won't rise to this provocation"...even though it's a pat phrase that Obama has used for years.

715 sattv4u2  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:18:32am

re: #708 Kragar

re: #711 sattv4u2
:( ,, slow typer here!!

716 blueraven  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:18:35am

re: #706 NJDhockeyfan

Good afternoon lizards!

What's this 'silver spoon' outrage about?

It is pretty standard, actually.

717 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:18:47am

re: #710 Learned Mother of Zion

Obama said that while he was served dog and other weird shit to eat, he didn't say he liked it.

NTTAWT.

718 Lidane  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:18:52am

Hooray for perspective!

GOP Senate candidate: Smoking bans = Hitler's Jewish stars

Lots of Senate candidates rail against onerous government regulations. But West Virginia Republican John Raese , who's looking to knock off Democratic Sen. Joe Manchin, took it to another level recently at the Putnam County Lincoln Day dinner.

Referring to Monongalia County regulations on smoking, Raese equated them to one of Adolf Hitler's most notorious policies.

719 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:20:32am

re: #714 The Ghost of a Flea

Obama used the phrase "I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth."

It's been taken as a dig against Romney...and the Romney camp has responded by being all "we won't rise to this provocation"...even though it's a pat phrase that Obama has used for years.

I don't get it. Why is Obama mentioning that? Is being born with a silver spoon shameful?

720 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:21:06am

re: #719 NJDhockeyfan

I don't get it. Why is Obama mentioning that? Is being born with a silver spoon shameful?

Because we tend to think more highly of self-made men than those who started with great advantages. It's an American thing.

721 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:21:09am

re: #718 Lidane

Hooray for perspective!

GOP Senate candidate: Smoking bans = Hitler's Jewish stars

[Embedded content]

Yeah this is insane and I'm pretty meh on smoking bans.

722 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:21:16am

re: #706 NJDhockeyfan

Good afternoon lizards!

What's this 'silver spoon' outrage about?

Little Boy Blue and the Man In the Moon.

723 Patricia Kayden  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:21:23am

Perhaps liberal/progressive Catholics should break off and form their own church. Not sure why the Catholic church is so adamant about being on the wrong side of history with their homophobia and sexism.

724 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:21:48am

re: #722 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Little Boy Blue and the Man In the Moon.

I hear the Owl and the Pussycat were also the same gender.

725 blueraven  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:21:54am

re: #719 NJDhockeyfan

I don't get it. Why is Obama mentioning that? Is being born with a silver spoon shameful?

No, it means everyone should have an opportunity for a good education. That was the context.

726 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:21:57am

re: #720 Obdicut

"You wouldn't understand"///

727 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:22:16am

re: #720 Obdicut

Because we tend to think more highly of self-made men than those who started with great advantages. It's an American thing.

I don't think that way. I think more highly of nice decent people than what is in their bank account.

728 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:22:48am

re: #720 Obdicut

Because we tend to think more highly of self-made men than those who started with great advantages. It's an American thing.

Yep. Candidates will always humble their backgrounds. Goes back to William Henry Harrison and his log cabin maybe even further.

729 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:24:00am

re: #725 blueraven

No, it means everyone should have an opportunity for a good education. That was the context.

Who is being denied education? I thought going to public school was free.

730 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:24:17am

re: #727 NJDhockeyfan

I don't think that way. I think more highly of nice decent people than what is in their bank account.

Well, in the US, traditionally, we celebrate people that come from humble beginnings but achieve much, because it's one of the things that's great about this country; the ability of those from underprivileged backgrounds to rise to the heights of society. It's not unique to us, but it is part of the awesomeness of this country. It's one thing that a lot of those silly libs are fighting to preserve, as well-- whether or not you agree with how they're doing it.

731 Lidane  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:24:35am

re: #727 NJDhockeyfan

I don't think that way. I think more highly of nice decent people than what is in their bank account.

Sure. Which is why an adult who tortures the family dog to death with callous disregard for its sanity and safety by strapping it to the hood of a car isn't someone I'd vote for, no matter what political party he was part of.

732 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:24:40am

re: #717 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

NTTAWT.

Huh? Could I request a decompression of that acronym?

re: #710 Learned Mother of Zion

Obama said that while he was served dog and other weird shit to eat, he didn't say he liked it.

True...but those attempting to make this news doesn't care in the slightest about contextual factors.

I mean, he was also six at the time, so he had pretty much no say about what he ate.

And as the child of an anthropologist, I'll bet (as the child of an anthropologist) that part of his upbringing was trying to understand local foodways AND realizing that not accepting food is a fast way to insult people.

I really think that they seized on this because dog-eating is a xenophobic trope (and a racist trope against Asians) that still has play in the US.

733 Kragar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:24:59am

re: #729 NJDhockeyfan

Who is being denied education? I thought going to public school was free.

The qualifier there being "good.

734 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:25:24am

re: #732 The Ghost of a Flea

Not that there's anything wrong with that. OK, one W missing.

735 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:25:53am

re: #733 Kragar

The qualifier there being "good.

Hire better teachers then.

736 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:26:27am

re: #732 The Ghost of a Flea

part of his upbringing was trying to understand local foodways AND realizing that not accepting food is a fast way to insult people.

Except when it comes to cookies. Then it's OK. /

737 Lidane  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:27:07am

re: #721 HappyWarrior

Yeah this is insane and I'm pretty meh on smoking bans.

Sure. We could argue the merits and drawbacks of smoking bans and anti-smoking laws, but this guy was just stupid in comparing No Smoking signs to Hitler's practice of identifying Jews and Jewish businesses. It's a total lack of historical perspective that is grossly offensive.

738 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:27:21am

re: #735 NJDhockeyfan

Hire better teachers then.

That comes with a tax increase though.

739 Kragar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:27:49am

re: #735 NJDhockeyfan

Hire better teachers then.

OK, lets just invest more in education... oh yeah, the GOP hates that, greedy teachers trying to take the money from those benevolent millionaires and corporations.

740 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:27:52am

re: #723 Patricia Kayden

Perhaps liberal/progressive Catholics should break off and form their own church. Not sure why the Catholic church is so adamant about being on the wrong side of history with their homophobia and sexism.

Because Benedict XVI is insistent on keeping them on the "right" side of church dogma.

741 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:28:29am

re: #738 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

That comes with a tax increase though.

No. Virginia Foxx says the state should not fund education.

742 Kronocide  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:28:42am

Cenk made the point about overcompensating. But it got me thinking of that concept a little deeper.

Fiery rhetoric full of extreme analogies and figures of speech, along with logically hollow evangelizing, are merely overcompensation for lack of a real rational acknowledgement or response to real world situations or solutions.

In short, Big Talk compensates for Small Ideas.

743 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:28:44am

re: #737 Lidane

Sure. We could argue the merits and drawbacks of smoking bans and anti-smoking laws, but this guy was just stupid in comparing No Smoking signs to Hitler's practice of identifying Jews and Jewish businesses. It's a total lack of historical perspective that is grossly offensive.

I know. What kind of moron equates smoking bans to policies that resulted in murder.

745 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:29:30am

re: #739 Kragar

OK, lets just invest more in education... oh yeah, the GOP hates that, greedy teachers trying to take the money from those benevolent millionaires and corporations.

IT'S THROWING MONEY AT PROBLEMS!

746 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:30:01am

re: #730 Obdicut

Well, in the US, traditionally, we celebrate people that come from humble beginnings but achieve much, because it's one of the things that's great about this country; the ability of those from underprivileged backgrounds to rise to the heights of society. It's not unique to us, but it is part of the awesomeness of this country. It's one thing that a lot of those silly libs are fighting to preserve, as well-- whether or not you agree with how they're doing it.

On one hand, the right should have been pleased to point out that Obama was capable of rising to the highest office in the land on his own efforts: it demonstrated that nobody had any sort of excuse that this is a "white man's country" where minorities have no chance.

But most of them seemed unable to overcome their inner cussedness when it comes to race.

747 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:30:22am

re: #730 Obdicut

Well, in the US, traditionally, we celebrate people that come from humble beginnings but achieve much, because it's one of the things that's great about this country; the ability of those from underprivileged backgrounds to rise to the heights of society. It's not unique to us, but it is part of the awesomeness of this country. It's one thing that a lot of those silly libs are fighting to preserve, as well-- whether or not you agree with how they're doing it.

So what you are saying is that Obama has more respect for people who worked their way up to success to become rich than people who were 'born with a silver spoon', correct?

748 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:31:43am

re: #744 Lidane

The concept of a “tar baby” originated in African folklore and was popularized by one of Joel Chandler Harris’s Uncle Remus stories published in 1881. In its original context, the term means “something used to entrap a person” but has also been used as a derogatory term for black people.

I think it's an innocent enough term. I learned it too from Uncle Remus stories (which we read in school). Just because some racists might have used it (though I've never seen a single instance of such abuse) doesn't make the term unacceptable.

749 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:31:49am

re: #739 Kragar

OK, lets just invest more in education... oh yeah, the GOP hates that, greedy teachers trying to take the money from those benevolent millionaires and corporations.

More teachers wont make the kids learn more. Get rid of the bad teachers and replace them with good ones.

750 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:33:01am

re: #749 NJDhockeyfan

More teachers wont make the kids learn more. Get rid of the bad teachers and replace them with good ones.

More policemen don't guarantee better law enforcement: get rid of the bad ones and rework the legal system so that the good ones are not wasting time on victimless crimes.

751 Kragar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:33:23am

re: #749 NJDhockeyfan

More teachers wont make the kids learn more. Get rid of the bad teachers and replace them with good ones.

Why bother becoming a teacher when the pay is shit?

752 blueraven  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:33:44am

re: #729 NJDhockeyfan

Who is being denied education? I thought going to public school was free.

Really...public universities are free?

753 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:34:22am

re: #751 Kragar

Why bother becoming a teacher when the pay is shit?

Love of teaching but I agree teachers should be paid/respected more than they are by society. I also think speaking from experience as a former special ed student that more teachers is better because the teacher to student ratio drops.

754 Targetpractice  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:34:50am

re: #744 Lidane

Bachmann says Obama ‘waving a tar baby’ with oil policy

During a recent interview with the blog Shark Tank, Bachmann insisted that new legislation wasn’t necessary because Obama “already has the tools and he knows it.”

“So, if there is a problem then president Obama is the problem for failing to utilize these tools that he has,” she continued.

What "tools" does she believe he has to bring down oil prices and thus gas prices? I'd personally like to hear this, if only to know where her delusion has taken her today.

755 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:34:57am

Occupy Tampa posts anti-Semitic cartoon on Holocaust Day

The Occupy Tampa movement posted an anti-Semitic cartoon on their Facebook page on Thursday, which coincided with Israel's Holocaust Remembrance Day.

The cartoon, shown below, depicted a Jewish man with a big nose and large beard driving a car with the symbol of the United Nations as the wheel and U.S. President Barack Obama's head as the stick shift.

Within five hours the cartoon received more than 400 comments, mostly from outraged users, including many Israelis.

"Putting this on Holocaust day just makes it even more sickening than it already is," one user said.

"This is an outrage. All OWS sympathizers must be disgusted by this vile act of hatred," said another user.

Despite the fact that most of the commentators were furious over the cartoon, 54 people "liked" the image.

756 AK-47%  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:35:15am

re: #751 Kragar

Why bother becoming a teacher when the pay is shit?

I agree that you cannot just solve social problems by just throwing money at them, but sometimes money is needed in the right amount and in the right places as part of the solution.

But the GOP is all for cutting spending and taxes to and through the bone.

757 Kronocide  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:35:48am

re: #747 NJDhockeyfan

So what you are saying is that Obama has more respect for people who worked their way up to success to become rich than people who were 'born with a silver spoon', correct?

Speaking for myself, it's what you did with what you got.

Being born with a silver spoon in your mouth is not a success. Being born into wealth, and maintaining wealth, is not that impressive. Nothing wrong with it at all, but I wouldn't consider them a success story.

What if you were born into wealth but didn't get any richer because you chose a path in life that was less financially rewarding? Would that be a failure?

It seems many in our society equate wealth with success. It is not. It's just wealth.

758 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:35:59am

re: #749 NJDhockeyfan

More teachers wont make the kids learn more. Get rid of the bad teachers and replace them with good ones.

Well, if the studies say that class sizes between 20-30 are better for learning than 30+, and the district's average class size is between 35-40 do you think maybe hiring more teachers and holding more classes might actually be part of the solution?

Not to mention that you also have to fund your evaluation system that is going to decide whether a teacher is "good" or "bad". Or do you have an equally simplistic solution to that, such as simply looking at their voter registration card?
///

759 Kragar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:36:09am

re: #753 HappyWarrior

Love of teaching but I agree teachers should be paid/respected more than they are by society.

Love of teaching doesn't pay the bills.

760 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:36:12am

re: #752 blueraven

Really...public universities are free?

Universities aren't free that I know of. Never have been. If there is one let me know.

761 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:36:23am

re: #744 Lidane

Bachmann says Obama ‘waving a tar baby’ with oil policy

I don't understand "waving a tar baby." "Tar baby" as a concept I get, but waving one about makes that statement weird.

I'm on the fence about the offensiveness of the term. It's an old phrase that invokes a very specific story, but also got used as an insult. Context matters, and I'd say in this case Bachmann was not trying to use it as an epithet or insult (if nothing else, she wasn't calling a person a "tar baby" by an grammatical arrangement.)

Everything else in her statement is awful, and she remains a disgusting bigoted loon with no discernable brain, though.

762 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:36:36am

re: #755 NJDhockeyfan

Despite the fact that most of the commentators were furious over the cartoon, 54 people "liked" the image.

Lovely.
/

763 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:37:22am

re: #747 NJDhockeyfan

So what you are saying is that Obama has more respect for people who worked their way up to success to become rich than people who were 'born with a silver spoon', correct?

No, I'm saying that about me, not about Obama. What Obama said is factually true about his background, and, variously, about how he can sympathize with others in that position, how an education helped him succeed, about how being given a chance was a good thing.

Do you think that's bad of him to say for some reason?

764 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:38:03am

re: #762 Killgore Trout

Lovely.
/

It's just one 54!

765 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:38:11am

re: #759 Kragar

Love of teaching doesn't pay the bills.

I agree they should be paid more. Teachers are scapegoated too often.

766 Kronocide  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:38:32am

Occupy LGF has shown up. Time to go commit capitalism.

767 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:40:09am

re: #763 Obdicut

No, I'm saying that about me, not about Obama. What Obama said is factually true about his background, and, variously, about how he can sympathize with others in that position, how an education helped him succeed, about how being given a chance was a good thing.

Do you think that's bad of him to say for some reason?

Not at all. I just was wondering why bring it up. Getting a good education and succeeding is fantastic. How rich your folks are has nothing to do with it.

768 blueraven  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:42:21am

re: #767 NJDhockeyfan

Not at all. I just was wondering why bring it up. Getting a good education and succeeding is fantastic. How rich your folks are has nothing to do with it.

You are delusional. Having money directly impacts how good your education might be.

769 Kragar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:43:16am

re: #765 HappyWarrior

I agree they should be paid more. Teachers are scapegoated too often.

And there lies the problem. Sure, everyone wants to hire the best people to be teachers, except the people who are best at the job are often just as well suited for other jobs as well. Given the choice between scraping by on a teacher's salary or getting a job that allows them to take care of their families, the majority are going to opt for the better pay.

770 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:43:28am

re: #767 NJDhockeyfan

Not at all. I just was wondering why bring it up. Getting a good education and succeeding is fantastic. How rich your folks are has nothing to do with it.

Yes, it does. It's much easier to succeed if your folks are rich. Say you're Bill Gates-- having access to a computer on a regular basis, the way he did, he was able to do because he was privileged. He'd not have become the programmer he did without access to that.

There's lots of obvious examples of how you're able to help your kids succeed through using wealth. It's one of the main reasons people pursue wealth, to help their kids have a better swing at life.

771 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:43:31am

re: #755 NJDhockeyfan

Occupy Tampa posts anti-Semitic cartoon on Holocaust Day

A very curious case of misreporting. It was not Occupy Tampa at all. Rather an anonymous community known as #occupywallstreet. Which still makes a point about extremism in OWS, but why misreport it?

772 allegro  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:43:56am

re: #768 blueraven

You are delusional. Having money directly impacts how good your education might be.

Not to mention that it is now about a requirement in order to get a college education without being in debt for the rest of your life.

773 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:44:20am

re: #768 blueraven

You are delusional. Having money directly impacts how good your education might be.

Then explain the millions of successful people in America who started off poor.

774 BongCrodny  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:44:24am

re: #755 NJDhockeyfan

Occupy Tampa posts anti-Semitic cartoon on Holocaust Day

Not excusing the behavior -- it's an awful cartoon -- but let's add the rest of the story for completion.

Moreover, many users made a point to stress that the page belongs to Occupy Tampa, which is not affiliated with the Occupy Wall Street movement, and that the movement has no official leadership so anyone can post under the "occupy" name.
However, the Occupy Tampa Facebook page has more than 25,000 followers, and has been active since September 25, the beginning of the Occupy Wall Street protests.

Meanwhile on Thursday, the official Occupy Wall Street movement showed support for Israel's Holocaust Remembrance Day on their Twitter page, posting a tweet that said, "We stand with our brothers & sisters who suffered in the holocaust today, & we remember those who fought back."

775 blueraven  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:45:34am

re: #773 NJDhockeyfan

Then explain the millions of successful people in America who started off poor.

Do you really think having money or not has no effect on educational opportunity?

776 Kragar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:45:36am

re: #767 NJDhockeyfan

Not at all. I just was wondering why bring it up. Getting a good education and succeeding is fantastic. How rich your folks are has nothing to do with it.

Yeah, those kids growing up in a rural upper class neighborhood have the exact same school experience and opportunities as kids from an inner city lower class neighborhood do.

777 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:45:36am

re: #773 NJDhockeyfan

Then explain the millions of successful people in America who started off poor.

He said education not your wealth. Being from a wealthy background gives you an advantage in education believe me.

778 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:45:40am

re: #767 NJDhockeyfan

Not at all. I just was wondering why bring it up. Getting a good education and succeeding is fantastic. How rich your folks are has nothing to do with it.

(1) Having rich parents has everything to do with the opportunities presented.

(2) The man using the phrase has consistently been labelled by his opponents as an elitist.

re: #773 NJDhockeyfan

Then explain the millions of successful people in America who started off poor.

They worked their asses off to achieve parity.

779 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:46:27am

re: #773 NJDhockeyfan

Then explain the millions of successful people in America who started off poor.

Well, as Obama said, this is a country where people who start off poor can be given a chance, and succeed. Doesn't mean they had the same opportunities as those who grew up wealthy.

As a (rich) friend of mine said, once-- being raised rich does help you succeed, but more importantly, it means that your failures aren't as devastating.

He dropped out of college and then, years later, got serious about life and approached his dad with an idea for a company and his father and some of his friends bankrolled him. It was a good solid business idea and deserved to be funded, but he was privileged with the access to the capital that he had.

A typical college dropout wouldn't have that.

Does this really not make sense to you?

780 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:46:30am

re: #774 BongCrodny

It was not Occupy Tampa page though. Here it is:

[Link: www.facebook.com...]

Here is Occupy Tampa page:

[Link: www.facebook.com...]

781 Kragar  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:49:59am

6 Things Rich People Need to Stop Saying

"If I Can Do It, So Can You!"

What They Think They're Saying:

"This is the land of opportunity, where anyone can make it! Instead of complaining, just go out there and get rich!"

What We Hear:

"If everyone at my country club makes good money, it can't be that hard!"

This is such an impossibly strange idea that I'm not sure if the people saying it actually believe it.

But ... I guess our entire philosophy about money kind of revolves around this premise -- that there is no poor or working class, but only people who have chosen to not buckle down to the task of getting rich (and thus deserve whatever salary, insecurity or poor work conditions they get). So there should be no talk about improving the lives of the non-rich, since any of them can simply choose to elevate themselves out of that group, right?

Seriously, now. How much time do you really have to spend off your goddamned yacht to see that this isn't true? You don't even need to leave the dock -- there's a guy standing right there who you pay to fix your boat's engine. You know that 1) you absolutely need guys like him and 2) he will never get rich doing what he does. He could be great at his job, he might be the Michael Jordan of mechanics, he might work 100 hours a week -- it doesn't matter. Sure, if that one guy somehow also has the head for management and finance and the networking skills, he could maybe open his own chain of yacht repair shops. But they can't all do that.

782 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:52:04am

re: #774 BongCrodny

Not excusing the behavior -- it's an awful cartoon -- but let's add the rest of the story for completion.

However, the Occupy Tampa Facebook page has more than 25,000 followers, and has been active since September 25, the beginning of the Occupy Wall Street protests.

Started at the same time as OWS. Surely just a coincidence and probably run by Tea Party members just to make the Occupy Tampa look bad.

//

783 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:55:57am

re: #782 NJDhockeyfan

Started at the same time as OWS. Surely just a coincidence and probably run by Tea Party members just to make the Occupy Tampa look bad.

//

It probably is a legit OWS page (in the sense that it's not a false flag), but it's not the Occupy Tampa page and nobody knows who runs it. The Occupy Tampa page did not have such a cartoon posted.

784 HappyWarrior  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 10:56:25am

re: #781 Kragar

6 Things Rich People Need to Stop Saying

That was a good article. Anyhow, I agree anyone with hard work can make it in this country but there's no doubt to me that coming from wealth helps at the beginning when it comes to higher education. It doesn't guarantee where you finish, yes but it does impact where you start. Anyhow, I think Obama is pointing out to those who accuse him of being this elitist ignore that he like many Americans had to work to where he is now. It's not his fault if Mitt may feel some guilt about coming from privilege.

785 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 11:02:09am

re: #780 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

The first URL doesn't work for some reason, here is the page where the pic was posted: [Link: www.facebook.com...]

786 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 11:03:49am

re: #785 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

The first URL doesn't work for some reason, here is the page where the pic was posted: [Link: www.facebook.com...]

Facebook is blocked here at work. I'll take your word for it.

787 Lidane  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 11:05:38am

What right wing racism?

Anti-Immigrant Group Runs False TV Ad Blaming Global Warming On Immigrants Entering The U.S.

Despite the fact that the number of Mexican undocumented immigrants entering the U.S. is dropping, an anti-immigrant California group incorrectly blames immigrants for increasing carbon emissions in the U.S., leading to “environmental degradation.” Californians for Population Stabilization (CAPS), which is airing TV ads on MSNBC and other channels to promote the false link between immigration and climate change, bases its research on a flawed report by the nativist Center for Immigration Studies (CIS), which is connected to the hate group Federation for American Immigration Reform.

“Concerned about Americans’ huge carbon footprint? Then you should be concerned about immigration,” a man in the ad says in an attempt to scare viewers.

788 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 11:07:31am

re: #786 NJDhockeyfan

It probably is someone associated with OccupyTampa (as well as surely associated with the Anon), but it's not an official OT page. It's still extremism at OWS, mind you.

789 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 11:07:38am

re: #783 Capricious Casserole of Calamity

It probably is a legit OWS page (in the sense that it's not a false flag), but it's not the Occupy Tampa page and nobody knows who runs it. The Occupy Tampa page did not have such a cartoon posted.

I thought these OWS groups in different cities & towns don't have a specific movement leader which means the websites are posted by some of the members.

790 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 11:09:00am

re: #719 NJDhockeyfan

I don't get it. Why is Obama mentioning that? Is being born with a silver spoon shameful?

Bragging and looking down on others because of it is. Just be happy that you were born into the lucky sperm club and STFU. And for the record, I have much more respect for anyone that came up through the ranks to make their millions/billions than any little snot that inherited it and makes like they are some wizz of an entrepreneur.

791 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 11:09:58am

re: #784 HappyWarrior

That was a good article. Anyhow, I agree anyone with hard work can make it in this country but there's no doubt to me that coming from wealth helps at the beginning when it comes to higher education. It doesn't guarantee where you finish, yes but it does impact where you start. Anyhow, I think Obama is pointing out to those who accuse him of being this elitist ignore that he like many Americans had to work to where he is now. It's not his fault if Mitt may feel some guilt about coming from privilege.

1. Wealth is a safety net. When you fail or are struggling, money means that you can do things over (like college classes), take time off (if ill or burned out), and screw up with less repercussion (because cash penalties don't hurt you so much.

2. Having a reserve pool of purchasing power means not getting caught in the largest economic traps that keep people from accumulating income: loan schemes and living on credit.

3. If you can move around freely, you've got access to more experiences, more people and more choices--all of that adds up to more opportunities to find a comfortable niche in which to succeed.

4. Don't kid yourself--being identified as "moneyed" changes how people evaluate you. Class is a more subtle element in this country, but it's totally there: "people like us" is another kind of safety net, in which your status compensates for incompetence and screw-ups.

792 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 11:12:27am

re: #790 RayFerd

Bragging and looking down on others because of it is. Just be happy that you were born into the lucky sperm club and STFU. And for the record, I have much more respect for anyone that came up through the ranks to make their millions/billions than any little snot that inherited it and makes like they are some wizz of an entrepreneur.

Obama's kids are 'born with a silver spoon'. I guess you will have less respect for them should they make millions/billions.

793 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 11:12:44am

re: #789 NJDhockeyfan

I thought these OWS groups in different cities & towns don't have a specific movement leader which means the websites are posted by some of the members.

I think there are organizing committees or such. The official OT page looks, well, like an official page. With various schedules of local events etc.

This page, although maybe done by someone participating in Occupy Tampa (because it says "Community Page about Occupy Tampa" in the mini-headline, so unless this is an accident, it is someone from Tampa), looks like a 15 y.o. conspiracy nut's page and does not *purport* to be the official page of OT. It's all links to pictures, various slogans etc.

794 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 11:13:27am

re: #747 NJDhockeyfan

So what you are saying is that Obama has more respect for people who worked their way up to success to become rich than people who were 'born with a silver spoon', correct?

And so do I.

795 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 11:15:29am

re: #792 NJDhockeyfan

Obama's kids are 'born with a silver spoon'. I guess you will have less respect for them should they make millions/billions.

Right now they're kids so why don't we just leave them out of this entirely, mkay?

796 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 11:17:49am

re: #749 NJDhockeyfan

More teachers wont make the kids learn more. Get rid of the bad teachers and replace them with good ones.

Get rid of the ones that want to teach evolution and replace them with ones that want to teach creationism? Who is going to make those decisions? What criteria is going to be used? Should the parents of children take no responsibility? If a teachers job is dependent on the outcomes, what tools or leeway are you going to give the teachers to reach that goal? Can the teacher kick the kids out of their class that are disruptive and care nothing of learning so the teacher can preserve their job?

797 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 11:20:49am

re: #792 NJDhockeyfan

Obama's kids are 'born with a silver spoon'. I guess you will have less respect for them should they make millions/billions.

Less respect than someone who achieved as much as they did (in some putative future) but did it with fewer advantages?

Yeah, I would. I'd still have respect for whatever they achieved, though.

If it's just making millions and billions, I don't care about that in and of itself, it's how they do it that matters.

798 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 11:21:06am

re: #795 The Ghost of a Flea

Right now they're kids so why don't we just leave them out of this entirely, mkay?

I thought we've been talking about the kids 'born with a silver spoon' vs poor kids. According to RayFerd:

I have much more respect for anyone that came up through the ranks to make their millions/billions than any little snot that inherited it and makes like they are some wizz of an entrepreneur.

799 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 11:25:27am

re: #798 NJDhockeyfan

But the Obama kids aren't acting like whizzes or entrepreneurs, so at most you're creating some hypothetical where they do act like that despite only having inherited money.

And I answered your rather vague hypothetical, anyway.

800 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 11:27:13am

re: #773 NJDhockeyfan

Then explain the millions of successful people in America who started off poor.

Start naming them. I'll give you ones that inherited money and you can match them name for name with those that got there from meager beginnings (these 5 are from the Forbes top 10 riches people in America).

Charles Koch
David Koch
Christy Walton
Jim Walton
Alice Walton

801 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 11:29:44am

re: #799 Obdicut

But the Obama kids aren't acting like whizzes or entrepreneurs, so at most you're creating some hypothetical where they do act like that despite only having inherited money.

And I answered your rather vague hypothetical, anyway.

No they aren't, they are just kids with rich parents which IMO has nothing to do with whether or not they earn respect for their earned successes. RayFerd made it perfectly clear that he respects poor kids making it and not 'any little snot that inherited it.'

802 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 11:31:47am

re: #801 NJDhockeyfan

No they aren't, they are just kids with rich parents which IMO has nothing to do with whether or not they earn respect for their earned successes. .'

If their only eventual succeess is inheriting those millions, then they don't deserve respect for it. If they inherit those millions and then use it to make more money, as I said, it depends on how they're making their money. The mere accumulation of wealth isn't respectable.

RayFerd made it perfectly clear that he respects poor kids making it and not 'any little snot that inherited it

What is there to respect about someone who just inherited their money but acts like they earned it, sorry?

I think you're reading it with a jaundiced eye, either on purpose or by accident.

You really appear to be claiming that coming from a wealthy background gives you no advantages in life. You don't honestly think that, do you?

803 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 11:41:00am

re: #792 NJDhockeyfan

Obama's kids are 'born with a silver spoon'. I guess you will have less respect for them should they make millions/billions.

If they start acting like assholes and looking down at people then, yes. I know many rich people. I worked for a man (Paul) that was worth millions, but he was one of the nicest men I had ever met. He made his millions on hard work and never forgot it. I have also known assholes that inherited their money and were idiots. Those 2 intertwine in my life as I got to go pick up checks from the assholes as they were driving their dad's once successful business into the ground and bouncing checks to my boss (Paul). I then got the extreme pleasure of writing in code to charge them interest on the payments they were behind. And yes I do take pleasure in that as those scumbags fired me and my friends (high school job 20 years earlier) from their fathers hotel right after he died and they took over just so they could give the jobs to their friends kids. Fuck them, they lost that hotel not long after that and started their decline (cocaine was a large part of their decline also). Again, fuck them.

804 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 11:41:04am

re: #802 Obdicut

If their only eventual succeess is inheriting those millions, then they don't deserve respect for it. If they inherit those millions and then use it to make more money, as I said, it depends on how they're making their money. The mere accumulation of wealth isn't respectable.

What is there to respect about someone who just inherited their money but acts like they earned it, sorry?

I think you're reading it with a jaundiced eye, either on purpose or by accident.

You really appear to be claiming that coming from a wealthy background gives you no advantages in life. You don't honestly think that, do you?

I'm not talking about people who inherent millions and sit around and do nothing. I knew a guy in Ct who had millions of dollars after his parents died and he spent every day at the bar, open to close, drinking heavily, eating, and reading the 3 or 4 newspapers he brought in.

I'm talking about kids who go to college and make a success of themselves after they graduate or kids who start their own business. Most of those types of kids I met don't have access to their parent's bank accounts. The parents let them make it on their own.

805 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 11:44:32am

re: #801 NJDhockeyfan

No they aren't, they are just kids with rich parents which IMO has nothing to do with whether or not they earn respect for their earned successes. RayFerd made it perfectly clear that he respects poor kids making it and not 'any little snot that inherited it.'

Don't cut what I said down to try to make a point, there is a qualifier in there.

"than any little snot that inherited it and makes like they are some wizz of an entrepreneur"

806 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 11:45:14am

re: #804 NJDhockeyfan

I'm not talking about people who inherent millions and sit around and do nothing.

Well, that's who RayFerd was talking about.

I'm talking about kids who go to college and make a success of themselves after they graduate or kids who start their own business. Most of those types of kids I met don't have access to their parent's bank accounts. The parents let them make it on their own.

Often, they still have access to interneships, or friends of their parents, or simply knowing how to socialize. But very often, parents do help their kids out by investing in their companies. The guy who founded Chipotle did. The Koch brothers' money is inherited and re-invested.

My wife is in medical school right now. There are so, so many cost associated with it-- not just the books, but the need for a high-speed internet connection, printing costs for high-color slides, etc. In order to get into med school, she took a bunch of preparatory classes-- they also cost money. Actually applying to the medical schools took money as well, as did flying out for the interviews.

If she had had to limit where she had applied to, she might not have gotten in.

Make sense?

807 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 19, 2012 3:30:57pm

re: #729 NJDhockeyfan

Who is being denied education? I thought going to public school was free.

Says the white man who didn't go to a bombed out defunded school


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