Ridiculous Right Wing Article of the Day: Obama’s ‘Forward’ Slogan Is Marxist

You can’t make up this stuff
Wingnuts • Views: 25,151

The day is still young here on the left coast, but we already have a winner for the Ridiculous Right Wing Article of the Day: New Obama Slogan Has Long Ties to Marxism, Socialism.

The Obama campaign apparently didn’t look backwards into history when selecting its new campaign slogan, “Forward” — a word with a long and rich association with European Marxism.

Many Communist and radical publications and entities throughout the 19th and 20th centuries had the name “Forward!” or its foreign cognates. Wikipedia has an entire section called “Forward (generic name of socialist publications).”

“The name Forward carries a special meaning in socialist political terminology. It has been frequently used as a name for socialist, communist and other left-wing newspapers and publications,” the online encyclopedia explains.

The slogan “Forward!” reflected the conviction of European Marxists and radicals that their movements reflected the march of history, which would move forward past capitalism and into socialism and communism.

What can you even say about this kind of deranged propaganda? I wonder if The Jewish Daily Forward is aware that their name is a radical commie Marxist slogan?

UPDATE at 5/1/12 10:46:45 am

Also imbued with radical commie Marxism: the state motto of Wisconsin. (h/t: alpuz.)

Jump to bottom

248 comments
1 Kragar  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:41:24am

Rush was pushing that this morning.

Are there any other words in the English language they want to redefine as belonging solely to commies?

2 Sophia77  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:41:32am

Oh for heaven's sake.

3 iossarian  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:41:46am

From the "About" page of the Jewish Daily Forward:

The Forward is a legendary name in American journalism and a revered institution in American Jewish life. Launched as a Yiddish-language daily newspaper on April 22, 1897, the Forward entered the din of New York's immigrant press as a defender of trade unionism and moderate, democratic socialism.

Read more: [Link: forward.com...]

I think the word "forward" does indeed have ties to the kind of democratic socialism that gave us the European-style welfare state.

This is a good thing. It's about time people with brains in the US started to show the stones necessary to actually start improving things.

4 alpuz  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:42:55am

Uh, it's also the Wisconsin state motto.

5 Kragar  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:43:17am

re: #4 alpuz

Uh, it's also the Wisconsin state motto.

COMMIES!

6 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:43:53am

re: #3 iossarian

"Moderate democratic socialism" is not what the Washington Times article is about, though.

7 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:44:01am

re: #3 iossarian

From the "About" page of the Jewish Daily Forward:

I think the word "forward" does indeed have ties to the kind of democratic socialism that gave us the European-style welfare state.

This is a good thing. It's about time people with brains in the US started to show the stones necessary to actually start improving things.

Call Brooks Bayne, now is his hour, let him shine!

8 Bulworth  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:44:23am

Bill Ayers!

9 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:44:50am

Even William Kristol over at the Weekly Standard got in on the act.

Dumb just keeps getting dumber.

10 lawhawk  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:45:06am

I saw that being pushed on my Twitter feed last night and then this morning by any number of the right wingers.

Don't get it.

Are they (and the GOP) really that backwards?

Do they not understand that people want a candidate who is forward-thinking and optimistic?

Instead, they're trying to once again make the connection between Obama and socialism, Marxism, and any other ism they can think of (blackism seems to be the real crime that Obama commits though - just being black in the eyes of the right wing).

11 iossarian  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:46:06am

re: #6 Charles Johnson

"Moderate democratic socialism" is not what the Washington Times article is about, though.

Sure, the Loony Moonies want people to think that anything left of Genghis Khan is EXACTLY THE SAME AS MAO.

My point was that the word "forward" does indeed have socialist connotations when used as a political slogan. Again, this is a good thing.

12 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:46:16am

re: #3 iossarian

From the "About" page of the Jewish Daily Forward:

I think the word "forward" does indeed have ties to the kind of democratic socialism that gave us the European-style welfare state.

This is a good thing. It's about time people with brains in the US started to show the stones necessary to actually start improving things.

Uh, yeah. The Forverts was called that because the founders were socialists, and it's still a strongly progressive publication.

13 Kragar  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:46:37am

Meanwhile, Romneytron's campaign slogan is "Believe in America", and I have to wonder which America he wants us to believe in.

14 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:47:11am

re: #11 iossarian

Sure, the Loony Moonies want people to think that anything left of Genghis Khan is EXACTLY THE SAME AS MAO.

My point was that the word "forward" does indeed have socialist connotations when used as a political slogan. Again, this is a good thing.

NO! NO! GO BACK! GO BACK!!

15 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:48:06am

OK, Forward! is socialist.

Now let's deal with family values: Kinder, Küche, Kirche ...

16 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:49:09am

Let Us Move Forward and Upward
Spencer W. Kimball
President of the Church - LDS

Marxist!

17 S'latch  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:49:33am

Forward! It isn't Rightward enough, and it might be slightly Leftward.

18 Simply Sarah  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:51:00am

The fact that large numbers of people have actually been able to be convinced that there's anything even remotely socialist about the Obama administration terrifies me, really. Are some parts of it technically "socialist"? Well sure, just about anything that isn't some Randian nightmare will be at least slightly "socialist". But a Communist socialist radical? That's absurd on its face from any remotely rational point of view.

19 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:51:37am

re: #12 SanFranciscoZionist

Uh, yeah. The Forverts was called that because the founders were socialists, and it's still a strongly progressive publication.

An interesting column about how the name was chosen--and a detail I did not know--Forverts is not, actually, the proper Yiddish for 'forward'.

20 Decatur Deb  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:51:43am

"Vorwärts immer, rückwärts nimmer"

I'm convinced the Prez and his people are just screwing with the wingnuts, now.

21 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:52:11am

re: #18 Simply Sarah

The fact that large numbers of people have actually been able to be convinced that there's anything even remotely socialist about the Obama administration terrifies me, really. Are some parts of it technically "socialist"? Well sure, just about anything that isn't some Randian nightmare will be at least slightly "socialist". But a Communist socialist radical? That's absurd on its face from any remotely rational point of view.

They should know from Communist socialist radicals.

22 Kragar  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:52:32am

The GOP vision for America: Back and to the right. Back and to the right.

23 dragonath  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:52:57am

I see a hammer on the Wisconsin state seal, that means they are at least half communist!

24 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:53:12am

re: #15 May Day! May Day!

OK, Forward! is socialist.

Now let's deal with family values: Kinder, Küche, Kirche ...

"Forward" is is a gateway word that should be avoided in our teachings!

25 Obdicut  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:54:11am

Marxism and socialism are highly, highly separate concepts. Marxism contains an idea of socialism as a sort of bridge state, but socialists don't view it that way.

Any time anyone combines the two, they're being an idjit.

26 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:54:32am

USCGC FORWARD (WMEC 911)

Marxist!

27 Kragar  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:55:04am

re: #25 Obdicut

Marxism and socialism are highly, highly separate concepts. Marxism contains an idea of socialism as a sort of bridge state, but socialists don't view it that way.

Any time anyone combines the two, they're being an idjit.

You almost seem to imply that the wingnuts might not have a firm grasp of the topic.

28 Simply Sarah  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:55:17am

re: #25 Obdicut

Marxism and socialism are highly, highly separate concepts. Marxism contains an idea of socialism as a sort of bridge state, but socialists don't view it that way.

Any time anyone combines the two, they're being an idjit.

Of course, but that would require people to have some knowledge about at least one of those two topics beyond "They're bad."

29 nines09  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:56:57am

Nuts. Completely nuts. LOOK! SOUTH CAROLINA IS MOOSLUM!

30 Obdicut  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:57:17am

There's also about a gazillion versions of socialism. Having our highway system owned by the state can be called socialism.

31 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:58:19am

FORWARD ADVANCE DEPLOYED USMC BASE - KUWAIT

We must cleanse the language from Marxists terms!

32 Kragar  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:58:30am

re: #29 nines09

Nuts. Completely nuts. LOOK! SOUTH CAROLINA IS MOOSLUM!

A red star and a bear? How much more commie can CA get?

Image: california-state-flag.jpg

33 lawhawk  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:59:16am

Ummm.... Wisconsin must be communist, because their state motto is....

Forward.

34 nines09  Tue, May 1, 2012 10:59:26am

re: #32 Kragar

SOCIAL SECURITY???!!!!!111111

35 euphgeek  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:00:04am

Sooner or later, all these accusations of socialism and communism are going to have people saying to themselves, "If this is socialism and communism, what's so bad about it?"

36 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:00:18am
37 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:02:21am

re: #16 Gus

Let Us Move Forward and Upward
Spencer W. Kimball
President of the Church - LDS

Marxist!

Um, yes, actually, one of the favorite LDS hymns has the chorus:

Onward, ever onward,
As we glory in his name,
forward, pressing forward,
as a triumph song we sing,
God our strength will be
press forward ever
called to serve our King

Of course, that's one of the missionary hymns, and I imagine some of the people freaking out would rather see commies on the doorstep.

38 Simply Sarah  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:02:22am

re: #35 euphgeek

Sooner or later, all these accusations of socialism and communism are going to have people saying to themselves, "If this is socialism and communism, what's so bad about it?"

Perhaps. Maybe with younger generations that don't have the same emotional reaction to the very terms socialism and communism.

39 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:03:26am

Image: 800px-Forward_Together.jpg

One of Nixon's themes was "Forward Together."

40 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:04:50am

Nixon Portrait: "Forward Together"

41 Simply Sarah  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:04:56am

re: #39 Gus

Image: 800px-Forward_Together.jpg

One of Nixon's themes was "Forward Together."

The sign also says "Up with People!" It's surprising Nixon didn't paint the White House red!

42 Eventual Carrion  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:05:01am

re: #39 Gus

Image: 800px-Forward_Together.jpg

One of Nixon's themes was "Forward Together."

Ahhh, the good old days :-)

Then: Up With People

Today: Up Yours People

43 dragonath  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:05:01am

re: #39 Gus

"Up with People?!"

Knowing Nixon, it was probably "Up yours, People" originally.

44 Eventual Carrion  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:05:39am

re: #43 Be Zorch, Daddio

"Up with People?!"

Knowing Nixon, it was probably "Up yours, People" originally.

GMTA, to the second.

45 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:06:02am

re: #37 Mostly sane, most of the time.

This is joined by the hymn, "Press Forward, Saints."

Nobody owns a word.

46 Kragar  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:09:31am

re: #45 Mostly sane, most of the time.

This is joined by the hymn, "Press Forward, Saints."

Nobody owns a word.

I do, but I'm not sharing it with you dirty commies.

47 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:10:16am

Image: goforward.jpg

48 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:10:23am

re: #46 Kragar

I do, but I'm not sharing it with you dirty commies.

I just put a down payment on "tumescent."

49 erik_t  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:10:52am

The University of Wisconsin Badgers wear red jerseys. Coincidence? You decide!

50 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:11:53am

Image: 05681011.jpg

51 Kragar  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:13:12am

UK Parliamentary Report: Murdoch Unfit To Lead

A scathing UK parliamentary report into the culture of phone hacking in Rupert Murdoch’s media empire concludes that he “is not a fit person to exercise the stewardship of a major international company.”

Barry Diller: Murdoch ‘More Fit’ Than Most CEOs

He is more fit, morally and otherwise, to lead an organization than the majority of those that do.

Not exactly a ringing endorsement for the captains of industry when taken in context.

53 celticdragon  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:14:32am

Clan Douglas: Forward!

54 dragonfire1981  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:15:20am

Hey, this could work. I propose Mitt Romney's campaign slogan to be:

Backward/Forward/Backward

55 Simply Sarah  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:16:11am

re: #54 dragonfire1981

Hey, this could work. I propose Mitt Romney's campaign slogan to be:

Backward/Forward/Backward

I am now picturing his campaign them being the Hokey Pokey.

56 SpaceJesus  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:16:20am

obama should likewise be attacked for being seen anywhere near the color red, because of the color's communist symbolism. this includes of course standing next to the united states flag or a marine corp flag. and lord help mr obama if he is ever seen with a hammer in his hand

57 Tigger2  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:16:24am

re: #36 Gus

If they do they keep it pretty well hidden.

58 dragonfire1981  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:17:27am

re: #55 Simply Sarah

I am now picturing his campaign them being the Hokey Pokey.

That would be appropriate for Mitt. He can't seem to figure out which direction he's going in anyway.

59 celticdragon  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:20:30am

Keep moving forward...

Oh, and Sir Archibald Douglas has yer socialism right here...

60 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:20:37am

It is the G.O.P.s traditional last line of defense when they simply can't think of anything else remotely rational to say. They always revert to the "super secret hidden commie" accusations when pressed up against the wall of reason.

Next G.O.P. Super P.A.C. Commercial;

"Commies, they're everywhere, hiding, scheming, plotting, under your bed, under your stairs, in your attic or basement, going through your garbage at night to find things to use against you (especially if your Catholic and they find evidence of prophylactics). You might think that the days when Communism was a threat to America are gone, but your WRONG!

So you want to know why you have not heard of this before from the news channels? It is because they are Super Secret, DUH!

So you wonder why you have never seen one in your house? It is because they are Hidden, DUH!

Trust us, commies are everywhere and control everything in America, why they are almost as Super Secret and Hidden as the organizations of Jews who control the entire world's money are. But you know who has infiltrated and taken over those Jew organizations from the inside, that's right, Commies!

Unless you go to polls this election and vote for the God fearing Old White men of the G.O.P. we won't be able to protect you from the Jews godless communists that are overrunning America."

///

61 erik_t  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:23:48am

re: #60 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

"Commies, they're everywhere, hiding, scheming, plotting, under your bed, under your stairs, in your attic or basement, going through your garbage at night to find things to use against you (especially if your Catholic and they find evidence of prophylactics). You might think that the days when Communism was a threat to America are gone, but your WRONG!
///

Rep. West, is that you?

62 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:32:01am

Looks like some of the OWS terrorists may have been protest organizers. OWS Cleveland cancels their planned march.

63 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:32:59am

This is so stupid even for the Washington Times. Really this stupid red baiting needs to stop.

64 steve_davis  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:33:40am

I was a little unnerved to note that the GOP's new campaign slogan was "Work makes Freedom."

65 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:33:46am

re: #62 Killgore Trout

Looks like some of the OWS terrorists may have been protest organizers. OWS Cleveland cancels their planned march.

It's heating up in NY.

Update 2:12 p.m.: Robbins describes the scene as "Total pandemonium. Police made two incredibly violent arrests at the western corner of Washington Square Park. Police shoved press 30 feet away to arrest two people." Trash cans and street furniture were tossed in the street throughout the march, and Dobkin reports "lots of chants of fuck the police from New York to Greece."

Update 2:24 p.m.: Most of the anarchists have either dispersed and headed to Union Square, where all today's marches are converging for a permitted afternoon rally and musical performances. James Thilman is headed down from Bryant Square park with a march, and estimates several hundred protesters on the sidewalk. (One yelled to the cops accompanying them on scooters, "Give us one lane down Fifth Avenue! You can do it!"

66 Talking Point Detective  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:38:49am

re: #62 Killgore Trout

Looks like some of the OWS terrorists may have been protest organizers.

Is that called chumming the waters?

67 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:40:53am

re: #65 NJDhockeyfan

[Link: www.ustream.tv...]

They're in the streets now blocking 5th avenue. Cops won't let this go on for long.

68 Eventual Carrion  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:41:14am

re: #64 steve_davis

I was a little unnerved to note that the GOP's new campaign slogan was "Work makes Freedom."

Yep

"Work Makes Free", takes balls to take the Auschwitz slogan.

69 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:42:27am

re: #66 Talking Point Detective

Is that called chumming the waters?

Sort of. Looks like the FBI had already infiltrated the protests.
"Occupy" Movement Was Infiltrated By FBI Informant In Cleveland Bridge Bombing Probe

70 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:42:35am

re: #12 SanFranciscoZionist

Uh, yeah. The Forverts was called that because the founders were socialists, and it's still a strongly progressive publication.

Yeah, but now it's freaking painful to see how desperately they are trying to establish their "hipness." What is that word you call people who are just too, too "hip" for their skin? Twee?

Also, why is The Forverts writing all these puff pieces about Roseanne Barr? WTF is that all about? Did she like, buy the paper or something?

71 efuseakay  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:54:05am

Don't worry folks. The freepers got it covered with a thread of 117 posts!

72 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:58:43am

Douchebag of the day:

Pioneer of global peace studies hints at link between Norway massacre and Mossad

Johan Galtung, Norwegian sociologist nicknamed the “father of peace studies,” made anti-Semitic and anti-Israeli remarks while lecturing at the University of Oslo, in an article published afterward in the Norwegian press and in an interview with Haaretz that followed.

Among other statements, Galtung claimed that a possible connection exists between the terrorist responsible for the massacre of children in Norway last summer, and the Mossad. “The Jews control U.S. media, and divert for the sake of Israel,” wrote Galtung in an article published in Norway.

He pointed out that one of the factors behind the anti-Semitic sentiment that led to Auschwitz was the fact that Jews held influential positions in German society.
Galtung also recommended reading “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion,” – one of the most popular anti-Semitic texts in the world.

Professor Galtung, 82-years-old, is one of the founders of the discipline called “Peace Studies and Conflict Resolution,” as well as a founder of the international Peace Research Institute in Oslo. He is considered well-respected sociological researcher, has been awarded many prizes, and is the author of over a thousand articles and over a hundred books. Some of his work has also been translated into Hebrew.

73 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, May 1, 2012 11:59:37am

40% of all basketball teams are socialists! And Hoosier Hoops is obviously a 5th columnist infiltrating Oklahoma!

74 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:00:51pm
75 Tigger2  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:01:29pm

re: #62 Killgore Trout

Is that compared to the Teabagger Terrorist, Killing abortion Dr's and threatening other abortions Dr's.

76 efuseakay  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:03:12pm

WTH... I just realized my DVD player is a Commie!

77 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:03:33pm

re: #75 Tigger2

Is that compared to the Teabagger Terrorist, Killing abortion Dr's and threatening other abortions Dr's.

I lost track of the Glenn Beck fan who was on his way to attack the Tides Foundation. He had the same name as an MSM journalist to googling for updates returned too many unrelated results. His trial has probably already started, might even be over by now.

78 Kragar  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:05:14pm

Fake Ex-Terrorist sees plan to use Roe vs Wade to implement Sharia Law

At last week’s Awakening 2012 conference, phony “ex-terrorist” Kamal Saleem not only detailed a treacherous scheme by President Obama to use immigration reform to legalize terrorism, but also uncovered a liberal plot to use the Supreme Court’s 1973 decision in Roe v. Wade to “bring Sharia law liberally in our face.” Responding to co-panelist Frank Gaffney’s specious allegation that there have been anywhere between fifty to seventy instances where American judges used Sharia law to decide cases, Saleem blamed the Religious Right’s most hated ruling on the supposed proliferation of Sharia law in America.

79 reloadingisnotahobby  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:05:43pm

Wisconsin??
...Marxist?...Who knew??
//...must be their proximity to Canada!!

81 blueraven  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:07:13pm

re: #80 blueraven

President Obama in Afghanistan on Unannounced Trip to Sign Agreement on US Post-War Role

Moving Forward it seems.

82 wrenchwench  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:09:04pm

re: #80 blueraven

President Obama in Afghanistan on Unannounced Trip to Sign Agreement on US Post-War Role

Huh. That's both the headline and the body of the "article".

More to come, presumably.

83 blueraven  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:10:22pm

re: #82 wrenchwench

Huh. That's both the headline and the body of the "article".

More to come, presumably.

A bit more here

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

84 Sionainn  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:10:26pm

re: #80 blueraven

President Obama in Afghanistan on Unannounced Trip to Sign Agreement on US Post-War Role

How much is that costing us?!?

85 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:10:36pm

Some F-22 Fighter Pilots Don't Want to Fly Troubled $79 Billion Jets

Some pilots picked to jump into the cockpit of America's most advanced and expensive fighter jets are declining the normally coveted post because of a mysterious oxygen system problem that the Air Force has not been able to solve despite years of investigation, according to a top Air Force official.

A "very small" number of the 200-something stealth F-22 Raptor pilots have requested to either not fly the next-generation fighters or to be reassigned altogether, Air Force Gen. Mike Hostage told reporters Monday.

"Obviously it's a very sensitive thing because we are trying to ensure to that the community fully understands all that we're doing to try to get to a solution," said Hostage, commander of the Air Combat Command, which oversees F-22 operations...

SNAFU

86 bratwurst  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:10:58pm

So the GOP seems to feel their best bet to beat Obama is to whip up a 21st century red scare. This is 10 different kinds of stupid.

87 fahlmanc  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:11:30pm

re: #2 Sophia77

Comrade, you mean "Oh for Workers' Earthly Paradise sakes".

88 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:12:00pm

re: #83 blueraven

A bit more here

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

Withdrawal from Afghanistan can't come soon enough. This will work though and I look forward to it.

89 dragonath  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:12:16pm

Live presidential address at 7:30. Cool.

90 blueraven  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:13:32pm

re: #88 Gus

Withdrawal from Afghanistan can't come soon enough. This will work though and I look forward to it.

commie!

91 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:14:08pm

Richard Grenell has dropped out of the Romney campaign.

92 Sionainn  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:14:36pm

re: #64 steve_davis

I was a little unnerved to note that the GOP's new campaign slogan was "Work makes Freedom."

Are you serious?

93 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:14:37pm

re: #78 Kragar

Fake Ex-Terrorist sees plan to use Roe vs Wade to implement Sharia Law

At last week’s Awakening 2012 conference, phony “ex-terrorist” Kamal Saleem not only detailed a treacherous scheme by President Obama to use immigration reform to legalize terrorism, but also uncovered a liberal plot to use the Supreme Court’s 1973 decision in Roe v. Wade to “bring Sharia law liberally in our face.” Responding to co-panelist Frank Gaffney’s specious allegation that there have been anywhere between fifty to seventy instances where American judges used Sharia law to decide cases, Saleem blamed the Religious Right’s most hated ruling on the supposed proliferation of Sharia law in America.

There goes Obama, once again using his time travel abilities to thwart the poor clueless Republicans by changing the outcome of an issue (uhh...somehow) more than 30 years before it even became a factor in his presidential race. (Hey we all know for a fact he can time travel because of his Hawaiian birth notices that were retroactively published in the past on the same day that he declared he was running for president!)

94 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:20:38pm

re: #91 Gus

Richard Grenell has dropped out of the Romney campaign.

Jennifer Rubin cites "teh ghey":

EXCLUSIVE: Richard Grenell hounded from Romney campaign by anti-gay conservatives
By Jennifer Rubin

His statement:

I have decided to resign from the Romney campaign as the Foreign Policy and National Security Spokesman. While I welcomed the challenge to confront President Obama’s foreign policy failures and weak leadership on the world stage, my ability to speak clearly and forcefully on the issues has been greatly diminished by the hyper-partisan discussion of personal issues that sometimes comes from a presidential campaign. I want to thank Governor Romney for his belief in me and my abilities and his clear message to me that being openly gay was a non-issue for him and his team.

95 Kragar  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:20:49pm

Kamal Saleem Suggests Obama is a Muslim, Imposing Islamic 'Fascist Religion'

Kamal Saleem used his appearance at Awakening 2012 to denigrate Roe v. Wade, maintaining that it will lead to Sharia law, and immigration reform, also maintaining that it will lead to Sharia law and the legalization of terrorism. He also went after another measure loathed by the Religious Right: hate crimes legislation. “When and if Sharia law is allowed in the United States of America the First Amendment will have to be broken because of the hate crime bill,” Saleem said. He then went on to argue that once Sharia law is imposed in the US the “Constitution has to be brought down and establishing fascism will have to take place. Why? Because Islam is a fascist place, just like Nazism or any other fascist religion.”

Later, Saleem and his co-panelist Frank Gaffney were asked by a member of the audience if President Obama is a Muslim, a questioned that was met with applause from the crowd. Saleem responded that Obama, when he appears to be pledging allegiance to the flag, is actually participating in an Islamic prayer.

96 dragonath  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:21:09pm

re: #91 Gus

Well that didn't take long. The response from the right wing was disgusting.

Oh, here's the National Review being assholes again.

97 Kragar  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:21:21pm

re: #94 Gus

Jennifer Rubin cites "teh ghey":

EXCLUSIVE: Richard Grenell hounded from Romney campaign by anti-gay conservatives
By Jennifer Rubin

His statement:

Bryan Fischer will be doing the happy dance over this.

98 Shvaughn  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:22:47pm

Ronald Wilson Reagan, former union boss, at CPAC in 1986:

Ronald Reagan Speech
"Forward For Freedom"

My fellow conservatives, let's get the message out loud and clear. The Washington liberals and the San Francisco Demo-crats aren't extinct; they're just in hiding, waiting for another try. Well, let's make it clear to the American people that they must choose this year between those who are enemies of big government and the friends of the freedom fighters and, on the other hand, those who are advocates of Federal power and a foreign policy of illusion. So, let the choice be clear. Will it be "blame America first," or will it be "On to Democracy" and "Forward for Freedom"?

99 dragonath  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:23:33pm

Conservatives turning away other like-minded people from their cause. Yeah, keep it up!

100 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:24:29pm

re: #91 Gus

Richard Grenell has dropped out of the Romney campaign.

The Romneybot 6000 has calculated that dumping Grenell will keep more right-wing votes than keeping Grenell would possibly garner moderate and left-wing votes.

As a side note the odds of a 2016 Santorum nomination just increased 0.5%

101 Kragar  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:24:56pm

re: #99 Be Zorch, Daddio

Conservatives turning away other like-minded people from their cause. Yeah, keep it up!

They can agree with each other 99% of the time, but that 1% of disagreement means they're the spawn of Satan.

102 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:25:08pm

For being gay. What a bunch of assholes. It's the year 2012!

103 Simply Sarah  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:25:42pm

re: #94 Gus

Jennifer Rubin cites "teh ghey":

EXCLUSIVE: Richard Grenell hounded from Romney campaign by anti-gay conservatives
By Jennifer Rubin

His statement:

It's true that Grenell is an asshole, but the homophobic attacks against him have just been disgusting. He's far from a saint, there were plenty of totally valid angles that could have been used to target him. Instead the entire focus was on the fact that he's gay. I really hate to defend someone like him, but I have to so here. Why must I be made to do this?

104 Interesting Times  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:28:27pm

re: #103 Simply Sarah

It's true that Grenell is an asshole, but the homophobic attacks against him have just been disgusting.

But that's just it - the things that make him an asshole to sane people (e.g. disgusting, misogynist tweets) were a feature, not a bug, to the rabid-now-mainstream right. It's his gayness they couldn't forgive. Priorities! #throughTheLookingGlassMorality

105 Kragar  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:28:36pm

re: #103 Simply Sarah

It's true that Grenell is an asshole, but the homophobic attacks against him have just been disgusting. He's far from a saint, there were plenty of totally valid angles that could have been used to target him. Instead the entire focus was on the fact that he's gay. I really hate to defend someone like him, but I have to so here. Why must I be made to do this?

It was shit like this that was my wake up call with the GOP. I kept waiting for them to challenge Obama on something of substance and all I got was birther crap and sekrit Muslim conspiracy. I then realized they had nothing and I started taking a serious look into other issues, which led me to stop being a Republican.

106 Simply Sarah  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:29:08pm

re: #104 Interesting Times

But that's just it - the things that make him an asshole to sane people (e.g. disgusting, misogynist tweets) were a feature, not a bug, to the rabid-now-mainstream right. It's his gayness they couldn't forgive. Priorities!

Sadly, you're probably pretty close to directly on target here. :/

107 Lidane  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:33:11pm

re: #10 lawhawk

Are they (and the GOP) really that backwards?

Yes. They'd repeal the 20th Century if they could.

Do they not understand that people want a candidate who is forward-thinking and optimistic?

As long as that candidate isn't a Seekrit Kenyan Mooslim Usurper, you mean. They'll cheer about Reagan's "Morning in America" all day long, but when Barack Obama offers a positive, forward-thinking message, it's about communism. WTF.

108 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:36:37pm

re: #107 Lidane

Yes. They'd repeal the 20th Century if they could.


As long as that candidate isn't a Seekrit Kenyan Mooslim Usurper, you mean. They'll cheer about Reagan's "Morning in America" all day long, but when Barack Obama offers a positive, forward-thinking message, it's about communism. WTF.

Says a lot about someone when they consider "Hope" a socialist/communist slogan, doesn't it?

109 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:37:13pm

Teddy Goff
@teddygoff
Digital Director, Obama for America

110 blueraven  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:38:15pm

re: #103 Simply Sarah

It's true that Grenell is an asshole, but the homophobic attacks against him have just been disgusting. He's far from a saint, there were plenty of totally valid angles that could have been used to target him. Instead the entire focus was on the fact that he's gay. I really hate to defend someone like him, but I have to so here. Why must I be made to do this?

I think the focus here, on this blog, was that he is a misogynist.

111 iossarian  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:38:35pm

Classic straight white male victimhood in the NRO comments FWIW:

Elegantly terse statement of what is really at stake in this argument. Gays could easily have won whatever rights that they are lacking under civil unions, if any are still lacking. But they want their sodomy sanctioned by the government, sanctioned in the name of the country that is the common property of all of us. They don't want rights...they want respect. They want to ~coerce~ respect from the holdouts. They want to use an Orwellian manipulation of language and the meaning of words enforced by the government. They want to assure that their couplings will receive respect everywhere in the public culture but especially in the schools -- the exact equal respect as that male/female thing that was universally understood to be the ONLY meaning of "marriage" throughout history prior to the brilliant insights of the late twentieth century.

SODOMY! But wait, there's more. Not content to put the final nail in the Gay Republican coffin, the commenter puts the boot into Hispanic outreach too:

This is deeply troubling. Be warned, Mitt: You might not only fail to energize the conservative base that has been so reluctant to accept you. You might find yourself actually ~losing~ ground as conservatives like myself who have been friendly to you decide that all the voices saying you were a fraud are correct. Because this particular move was so unnecessary, it is twice as troubling as it would otherwise be. (And I heard some official Hispanic outreach person from your campaign doing some serious Hispandering the other day.) We are watching you.

HISPANDERING! The tent shrinks yet further. The final blow:

Kevin Williamson's position also troubling.

NO-ONE IS AS TRULY CONSERVATIVE AS I!

112 Kragar  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:38:57pm

Conservative judge suggests choking a woman is simply a "breach of etiquette"

Prosser, the subject of an ethics complaint filed in March with the Supreme Court, said in his response to the complaint Monday that the commission “may not investigate or prosecute protected speech, advocacy and etiquette of Wisconsin Supreme Court justices when they are deliberating in confidential closed conferences.”

The three alleged ethics violations stem from a June 13 incident in which Prosser acknowledges putting his hands around the neck of Justice Ann Walsh Bradley “to protect himself” and a February 2010 incident in which he admits calling Chief Justice Shirley Abrahamson “a total bitch.”

113 Simply Sarah  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:39:47pm

re: #110 blueraven

I think the focus here, on this blog, was that he is a misogynist.

Oh, sure. I'm not defending him from anyone here. I'm stuck defending him from the other assholes out there that think being something other than 100% totally straight is a massive moral failing on the same order as eating babies.

114 iossarian  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:40:15pm

I'm going to adopt "Hispandering" as the official slogan of my higher education institution's minority outreach program.

Classic.

115 Kragar  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:41:19pm

re: #114 iossarian

I'm going to adopt "Hispandering" as the official slogan of my higher education institution's minority outreach program.

Classic.

Is herspandering the term when referring to feminists?

116 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:42:14pm

re: #114 iossarian

I'm going to adopt "Hispandering" as the official slogan of my higher education institution's minority outreach program.

Classic.

I await political scientists to propose the Hispandering Uncertainty Principle. 2012 will prove to be cutting edge.

117 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:43:57pm
118 Kragar  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:44:36pm

re: #117 Gus

[Embedded content]

That was something they could all agree on.

119 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:46:08pm

re: #115 Kragar

Is herspandering the term when referring to feminists?

No, just GOP operatives being condescending to Rachel Maddow.

120 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:46:12pm

Happening right now:

IamA Nobel Prize-winning economist and New York Times columnist. (self.IAmA)

121 MittDoesNotCompute  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:47:51pm

re: #112 Kragar

Conservative judge suggests choking a woman is simply a "breach of etiquette"

Sounds like the SOB has a propensity for violence against women; given these incidents, why is Prosser still on the WI Supreme Court?

122 Kragar  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:49:33pm

re: #121 ArthurSlugworth

Sounds like the SOB has a propensity for violence against women; given these incidents, why is Prosser still on the WI Supreme Court?

Well, they asked him to step down and his reply was "Is Judge Prosser gonna have to choke a bitch?"

123 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:49:48pm

re: #91 Gus

Richard Grenell has dropped out of the Romney campaign.

I would like to hear from the folks here who claimed that Grenell was a sign of Romney's moderation.

124 MittDoesNotCompute  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:50:30pm

re: #122 Kragar

Well, they asked him to step down and his reply was "Is Judge Prosser gonna have to choke a bitch?"

Nice Dave Chappelle/Wayne Brady reference...well played, sir.

125 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:50:45pm

FBI heroically locks up ridiculous anarchists on May Day
Feds stop inept radicals from carrying out a plot feds helped them conceive and carry out
By Alex Pareene

Happy May Day, fellow travelers! If you’re not currently disrupting capitalism and/or having your wrists zip-tied for exercising your right to freely assemble, you probably read about the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s latest, not-at-all suspiciously timed terror sting. The Bureau, in an inspired bit of early-20th century nostalgia, has railroaded a bunch of dangerous anarchists. (Or “dangerous” “anarchists.”) America will not waver in the face of the Galleanist threat!

Five young men from Cleveland are now in jail, accused of plotting to “blow up a bridge in the Cleveland area,” according to the FBI’s triumphant press release/criminal complaint. As is always the case with FBI terror stings, the “sting” part involved the bureau’s informant/agent provocateur mostly inventing the plot the accused have now been arrested for. In this case, the five planned to detonate smoke bombs as a distraction as they “topple[d] financial institution signs atop high rise buildings in downtown Cleveland.” But the informant (as usual, a sketchy unnamed character with a checkered past) strongly pushed the group to seriously consider different, more extreme plots. At the end, some or all of them were going to plant C-4 on the Route 82 Brecksville-Northfield High Level Bridge over the Cuyahoga Valley National Park.

So what was initially a political action aimed at financial institutions somehow morphed into a supposed attempt to destroy or damage a piece of publicly owned infrastructure in a national park. Anarchists sure do hate bridges, and parks, I guess. (No parliament of men has the authority to designate which spaces are “national parks”! The whole world is the worker’s national park!)...

More of that FBI theater.

126 iossarian  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:51:06pm

re: #123 May Day! May Day!

I would like to hear from the folks here who claimed that Grenell was a sign of Romney's moderation.

So would we all, lad, so would we all.

127 Kragar  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:51:54pm

re: #125 Gus

FBI heroically locks up ridiculous anarchists on May Day
Feds stop inept radicals from carrying out a plot feds helped them conceive and carry out
By Alex Pareene

More of that FBI theater.

Plots are so much easier to foil when you set them up in-house.

128 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:52:27pm

re: #126 iossarian

So would we all, lad, so would we all.

I'm looking forward to it. Not a great leap, is it?

129 Simply Sarah  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:53:05pm

re: #123 May Day! May Day!

I would like to hear from the folks here who claimed that Grenell was a sign of Romney's moderation.

I must have missed that. There were people here actually claiming that hiring a serial misogynist was a moderate move by Romney?

130 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:53:28pm

re: #129 Simply Sarah

;)

131 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:53:31pm

re: #127 Kragar

Plots are so much easier to foil when you set them up in-house.

This keeps happening time and time again. The FBI is essentially coaching, tutoring and instigating these perps.

132 Simply Sarah  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:54:54pm

re: #130 May Day! May Day!

;)

I'm missing out on the joke here, aren't I?

133 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:55:34pm

Orwell was a socialist.

Does that mean anyone mentioning him and his concepts positively is a socialist?

134 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:56:11pm

re: #133 May Day! May Day!

Orwell was a socialist.

Does that mean anyone mentioning him and his concepts positively is a socialist?

Einstheen

;)

135 Obdicut  Tue, May 1, 2012 12:58:17pm

re: #133 May Day! May Day!

Not just a socialist, a fightin' socialist.

136 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:02:23pm

WTF?

137 iossarian  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:02:28pm

re: #135 Obdicut

Not just a socialist, a fightin' socialist.

A fightin' democratic socialist. And not a social democrat!

138 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:02:40pm

re: #125 Gus

FBI heroically locks up ridiculous anarchists on May Day
Feds stop inept radicals from carrying out a plot feds helped them conceive and carry out
By Alex Pareene

More of that FBI theater.

That plot was hatched by the FBI!

139 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:02:45pm

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"--Sigmund Freud

140 Kragar  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:03:03pm

OK, who wants to make a wager on who takes credit for Romney dumping the guy first, Bryan Fischer or Tony Perkins?

I got 10k on Bryan.

141 Kragar  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:03:48pm

re: #137 iossarian

A fightin' democratic socialist. And not a social democrat!

"We're the People's Front of Judea!"

142 iossarian  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:05:31pm

re: #133 May Day! May Day!

Orwell was a socialist.

Does that mean anyone mentioning him and his concepts positively is a socialist?

Orwell was dismayed at how Animal Farm was portrayed in the US (of course) as being an anti-socialist tract.

143 Obdicut  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:05:36pm

re: #140 Kragar

OK, who wants to make a wager on who takes credit for Romney dumping the guy first, Bryan Fischer or Tony Perkins?

I got 10k on Bryan.

It was a joint effort by the whole bunch of cruddy jerks who wield power in the GOP today.

144 iossarian  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:06:00pm

re: #143 Obdicut

It was a joint effort by the whole bunch of cruddy jerks who wield power in the GOP today.

Team Bigot ... ENGAGE!

145 Kragar  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:06:38pm

re: #143 Obdicut

It was a joint effort by the whole bunch of cruddy jerks who wield power in the GOP today.

True, but I said who will take credit first, not who was actually behind it.

146 Varek Raith  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:06:39pm

re: #125 Gus

FBI heroically locks up ridiculous anarchists on May Day
Feds stop inept radicals from carrying out a plot feds helped them conceive and carry out
By Alex Pareene

More of that FBI theater.

WTF.

147 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:08:00pm

re: #125 Gus

FBI heroically locks up ridiculous anarchists on May Day
Feds stop inept radicals from carrying out a plot feds helped them conceive and carry out
By Alex Pareene

More of that FBI theater.

That's what the Koskidz think too: FBI Foils Another Bomb Plot it Engineered
Personally, I think the use of FBI informants has been a very useful tool against terrorism. It also makes to a great deterrent.

148 Kragar  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:08:02pm

re: #144 iossarian

Team Bigot ... ENGAGE!

Great, now I see a bunch of pasty, chubby white supremacists in color coded jump suits running to jump into their robotic animals to form Mecha-Klansman.

149 Varek Raith  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:08:59pm

Let's say I want to take down a satellite. I obviously have no means of actually doing so. So, the FBI provides me with half a kilo of C4 and a model rocket.
BAM!
Charged with trying to destroy a sat without any means of actually doing so.
What a country!
/

150 Targetpractice  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:09:06pm

re: #136 Gus

WTF?

[Embedded content]

Marissa Alexander would like a word with those lawmakers.

151 iossarian  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:09:32pm

re: #147 Killgore Trout

That's what the Koskidz think too: FBI Foils Another Bomb Plot it Engineered
Personally, I think the use of FBI informants has been a very useful tool against terrorism. It also makes to a great deterrent.

Yeah, but you think that Romney's a moderate, so your opinions need to be taken with a U-Haul of salt.

152 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:10:16pm

re: #147 Killgore Trout

That's what the Koskidz think too: FBI Foils Another Bomb Plot it Engineered
Personally, I think the use of FBI informants has been a very useful tool against terrorism. It also makes to a great deterrent.

Meh. PR campaign for the most part. Find a bunch of gullible terrorist types. Send in dynamic, fast talking motivational "informant." The FBI then supplies them with weapons, material, bomb making supplies, etc. Then they make the arrest.

153 Lidane  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:10:38pm

re: #151 iossarian

Wait, what?

Nothing about Mitt Romney is moderate. WTF. Someone actually thinks he's sane?

154 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:10:51pm

That creepy 'XCitizen10' stalker account has been suspended again. I think this is the third time this moron has harassed so many people that he got blocked. I hope Twitter keeps him out for good this time.

155 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:10:51pm

re: #149 Varek Raith

Let's say I want to take down a satellite. I obviously have no means of actually doing so. So, the FBI provides me with half a kilo of C4 and a model rocket.
BAM!
Charged with trying to destroy a sat without any means of actually doing so.
What a country!
/

Sort of yes. If you go on the internet and start asking for assistance in committing an act of terrorism the person who offers to help you will probably be FBI.

156 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:10:58pm

re: #120 Unlike Some People

Happening right now:

IamA Nobel Prize-winning economist and New York Times columnist. (self.IAmA)

My question: [Link: www.reddit.com...]

157 Varek Raith  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:11:36pm

For Mitt to be a moderate, he would have to have, you know, principles. His only 'principle' is getting elected no matter what.
Moderate my ass.

158 iossarian  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:11:51pm

re: #153 Lidane

Wait, what?

Nothing about Mitt Romney is moderate. WTF. Someone actually thinks he's sane?

It seems implausible, I know.

159 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:12:20pm

re: #152 Gus

Meh. PR campaign for the most part. Find a bunch of gullible terrorist types. Send in dynamic, fast talking motivational "informant." The FBI then supplies them with weapons, material, bomb making supplies, etc. Then they make the arrest.

Of course you'd probably feel differently if a Tea Partier got busted in an FBI sting. It's always different, there's always an excuse.

160 Targetpractice  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:13:50pm

re: #153 Lidane

Wait, what?

Nothing about Mitt Romney is moderate. WTF. Someone actually thinks he's sane?

I'm not really sure even they buy the "moderate" act Mitt's now trying to engage in. No, it's a means to an end, waving the pom-pons for their "team."

161 Varek Raith  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:14:18pm

re: #159 Killgore Trout

Of course you'd probably feel differently is a Tea Partier got busted in an FBI sting. It's always different, there's always an excuse.

Nope, unless they were actually capable of doing what they say without bailouts from the FBI. ;)

162 Obdicut  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:14:32pm

re: #159 Killgore Trout

Again with the douchey habit of telling other people what they'd think.

I'm pretty sure I remember Gus talking about the problem with informants in relationship to those militia dudes, too.

Not that you actually give a shit.

163 Varek Raith  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:15:29pm

It's one thing to monitor these guys. It's quite another to actively push them towards an action.

164 Kragar  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:16:40pm

Fischer: Grenell Resignation a 'Huge Win' for the Religious Right

Today, during the second hour of Fischer's daily radio broadcast, the news broke the Grenell had in fact resigned from the campaign and Fischer could barely contain his glee, declaring it a "huge win" for the Religious Right because it means that they have forced Romney to back down as taught him that he cannot do anything like this again:

"HUZZAH!!! We have made the GOP Nominee look like he is our bitch, greatly increasing his chances in November!"

165 Kragar  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:17:27pm

re: #163 Varek Raith

It's one thing to monitor these guys. It's quite another to actively push them towards an action.

"Psst, wanna buy some rockets?"

166 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:17:37pm

A totally imaginary article from Mandy Nagy at Breitbart.com quotes 'XCitizen10' right at the top, with his grotesque photoshop picture of me as an avatar.

Occupy Twitter: Top Ten Dirty Tricks Leftists Play Online

Oops! Account suspended. Too bad, so sad.

167 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:17:43pm

re: #159 Killgore Trout

Of course you'd probably feel differently if a Tea Partier got busted in an FBI sting. It's always different, there's always an excuse.

Of course you feel differently now because LGF went more towards the left so you won't bring up Tea Baggers anymore because now you can use lefties as a way of priming your schtick. It's always different, there's always an excuse.

168 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:18:09pm

re: #166 Charles Johnson

A totally imaginary article from Mandy Nagy at Breitbart.com quotes 'XCitizen10' right at the top, with his grotesque photoshop picture of me as an avatar.

Oops! Account suspended. Too bad, so sad.

Irony! Maybe it's another word.

169 Simply Sarah  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:18:35pm

Honestly, I never know exactly what to think with these kinds of FBI stings. I mean, in theory they indicate that the targets of the sting were at the very least willing to go along with the plan, but it's often fuzzy where they would have ended up without the "aid" of law enforcement. I mean, there is a line over which it becomes entrapment, but there's a lot of room before it is crossed. Really, we're stuck waiting for more details/a trial to work out if they more jumped or if they were mostly pushed. Not a great solution or answer, but I'm not sure what the other options are at this point.

170 MittDoesNotCompute  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:18:38pm

re: #163 Varek Raith

It's one thing to monitor these guys. It's quite another to actively push them towards an action.

Wouldn't that be considered to be entrapment?

171 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:18:39pm

re: #163 Varek Raith

It's one thing to monitor these guys. It's quite another to actively push them towards an action.

Which is to say, they still should be locked up, but it may be hard to untangle what they would or would not have done otherwise, and it might not be some sort of a brilliant coup by the FBI after all.

172 Obdicut  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:18:41pm

I think that using informants is problematic in a couple of ways.

There's two different kinds of informants: Guys who are actual FBI agents who infiltrate groups, and people who are FBI informants, not actually part of the FBI. The latter are often very shady characters, as it appears to be in this case, and usually are on the hook to the FBI in some way or another-- they have a prosecution set aside in return for being an informant. So they're highly pressured to produce results.

The agents themselves, when they infiltrate organizations, often do a better job of it, and I have little pity for someone who agrees to go along with a terroristic plot even if it's an FBI guy coming up with it. However, there is still the problem of resources-- if we didn't have the FBI informant in there sparking things along, how would things actually progress? Is this the best use of FBI resources?

The nail bomb aimed at the MLK parade was found by sheer luck. We didn't have intelligence on that group. That bomb was made by people who really knew what the fuck they were doing, and we got very, very lucky in discovering it.

173 Varek Raith  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:20:02pm

re: #170 ArthurSlugworth

Wouldn't that be considered to be entrapment

I used to think so.
I have no idea anymore.
Ugh.

174 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:20:12pm

re: #159 Killgore Trout

Of course you'd probably feel differently if a Tea Partier got busted in an FBI sting. It's always different, there's always an excuse.

Oh. And this is really pretty stupid because I've raised my eyebrows when they pull these sting operations on domestic Jihadists. According to your make believe fantasy about me then I'm siding with Jihadists?

175 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:20:58pm

re: #174 Gus

Oh. And this is really pretty stupid because I've raised my eyebrows when they pull these sting operation on domestic Jihadists. According to your make believe fantasy about me then I'm siding with Jihadists?

*ahem*

/

176 Varek Raith  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:22:37pm

The FBI should've just infiltrated this group, then arrested them when they were going to carry out their smoke bomb 'attack'. Nothing more.

177 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:23:43pm

re: #175 May Day! May Day!

*ahem*

/

...

When LGF was right-wing I would rag on right wingers. Now that LGF is left-wing I rag on left wingers! I'm consistent!

178 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:23:51pm

re: #169 Simply Sarah

Honestly, I never know exactly what to think with these kinds of FBI stings. I mean, in theory they indicate that the targets of the sting were at the very least willing to go along with the plan, but it's often fuzzy where they would have ended up without the "aid" of law enforcement. I mean, there is a line over which it becomes entrapment, but there's a lot of room before it is crossed. Really, we're stuck waiting for more details/a trial to work out if they more jumped or if they were mostly pushed. Not a great solution or answer, but I'm not sure what the other options are at this point.

Of course the technique can be abused. The police are pretty careful to stay within the legal boundaries because they want a conviction. If they overstep the case will get thrown out of court.
We've used the same technique against murder for hire plots for ages. If you go around asking to hire a hitman there's a good chance the first volunteer is going to be an FBI agent.

179 Simply Sarah  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:24:18pm

re: #170 ArthurSlugworth

Wouldn't that be considered to be entrapment?

Not by itself. Entrapment requires the person to basically demonstrate that they would have performed or been interested in performing the criminal act absent the planting and pushing of the idea by the government actors. Simply being encouraged and supplied by the police/FBI/whatever is not enough to win on an entrapment defense.

180 Targetpractice  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:24:54pm

re: #176 Varek Raith

The FBI should've just infiltrated this group, then arrested them when they were going to carry out their smoke bomb 'attack'. Nothing more.

Obdi's got a point, the informant is probably on the hook to the FBI for something serious, and so under pressure to "produce." A bunch of guys planting smoke bombs and knocking over signs wouldn't be as big a "catch" as a plot to blow up bridges with C4.

181 Varek Raith  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:25:23pm

re: #180 Targetpractice

Obdi's got a point, the informant is probably on the hook to the FBI for something serious, and so under pressure to "produce." A bunch of guys planting smoke bombs and knocking over signs wouldn't be as big a "catch" as a plot to blow up bridges with C4.

Which makes it all the more stupid.
Oy.

182 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:26:56pm

re: #176 Varek Raith

The FBI should've just infiltrated this group, then arrested them when they were going to carry out their smoke bomb 'attack'. Nothing more.

I think that leaves too many variables. If the group moves up the date of the attack, excludes the informant, changes targets, etc, the situation becomes dangerous. The feds do it this way to make sure all the explosives are inert, are guns are loaded with blanks, etc.

183 Varek Raith  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:27:24pm

But hey, they got them!
If only they got those guys who planted the MLK day bomb before they actually did it!

184 Targetpractice  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:27:48pm

re: #181 Varek Raith

Which makes it all the more stupid.
Oy.

Big "catches" lead to big promotions, which of course leads to better treatment for informants. Stopping what would amount to vandalism just isn't as big a "catch" as a domestic terrorism plot.

185 Obdicut  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:28:20pm

re: #178 Killgore Trout

We've used the same technique against murder for hire plots for ages. If you go around asking to hire a hitman there's a good chance the first volunteer is going to be an FBI agent.

But if you try to hire someone to throw a brick through someone's window, the FBI doesn't try to upsell you to hiring a hitman.

186 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:28:24pm

Tomorrow I'm going to sell my neighbors a cache of illegal machine guns. Then I'm going to call the cops and have them arrested! I'll be a hero.

//

187 PhillyPretzel  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:29:00pm

re: #186 Gus

That is a good one. ///

188 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:30:03pm

Next week I'm going to get me a nice looking young woman and teach her how to be a prostitute. I'll give her the pointers to the business and finance her wardrobe. Then, after a month, I'll have her arrested for prostitution.

//

189 Simply Sarah  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:30:04pm

re: #178 Killgore Trout

Of course the technique can be abused. The police are pretty careful to stay within the legal boundaries because they want a conviction. If they overstep the case will get thrown out of court.
We've used the same technique against murder for hire plots for ages. If you go around asking to hire a hitman there's a good chance the first volunteer is going to be an FBI agent.

Well, there's a difference between something being legal and something being wise or helpful. For example, ignoring the fine entrapment line for now, let us say someone is mad at the government. This, by itself, is not illegal and does not innately cause harm. The harm comes when it is acted upon in a negative manner. Now, if the police became aware that someone was struggling with this and set up a sting to aid in pushing her over the edge, an edge that she may have been able to avoid if she got help/support instead, does that really help society?

190 Varek Raith  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:30:08pm

re: #178 Killgore Trout

Of course the technique can be abused. The police are pretty careful to stay within the legal boundaries because they want a conviction. If they overstep the case will get thrown out of court.
We've used the same technique against murder for hire plots for ages. If you go around asking to hire a hitman there's a good chance the first volunteer is going to be an FBI agent.

These fools were going to commit vandalism, not blow up a freaking bridge.
Not until the FBI came along anyway.

191 Digital Display  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:30:34pm

re: #186 Gus

Tomorrow I'm going to sell my neighbors a cache of illegal machine guns. Then I'm going to call the cops and have them arrested! I'll be a hero.

//

I like it! A small scale fast and furious operation..
You gotta start somewhere
/

192 Varek Raith  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:31:00pm

re: #191 HoosierHoops

I like it! A small scale fast and furious operation..
You gotta start somewhere
/

Wasn't that a clusterfuck?

193 PhillyPretzel  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:31:10pm

re: #188 Gus

::: Walking away from Gus.:::

194 iossarian  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:31:10pm

re: #186 Gus

Tomorrow I'm going to sell my neighbors a cache of illegal machine guns. Then I'm going to call the cops and have them arrested! I'll be a hero.

//

Wait - are your neighbors leftists?

The morality of your action depends heavily on the political leanings of your victim.

195 Varek Raith  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:31:17pm

Ok, I feel a bit better now.

196 lawhawk  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:31:22pm

re: #180 Targetpractice

And it will be up to the defense team to show that these guys were duped into going for the big target - blowing stuff up, and not merely engaging in vandalism or knocking down signs. They'll definitely go after the informant who was passing along the information to the FBI.

But the fact that they were already looking to go and commit crimes as a group makes them face an uphill battle.

If the FBI doesn't bust these plots, and one of them succeeds, then everyone complains that they aren't doing nearly enough. If they do, the complaint is that they're going overboard and producing security theater by manufacturing these plots (that would not have occurred had the FBI and its informants not provided the motivation, equipment, etc. to push and prod the plot forward).

The truth is, like most things, somewhere in between.

The FBI (and other law enforcement like the NYPD) has to produce results. It also has to comply with the law and go and catch the bad guys - often with other bad guys playing informants to interface with the suspected bad guys.

Go overboard and the case falls apart. Don't do enough to infiltrate plots (or catch wind of lone wolfs or small cell independent terror groups), and one of them succeeds, and the FBI doesn't hear the end of it.

It's a balancing act. And the FBI (and other law enforcement) is in a no-win situation.

Yet, there are things that take things overboard.

197 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:32:19pm

re: #190 Varek Raith

These fools were going to commit vandalism, not blow up a freaking bridge.
Not until the FBI came along anyway.

It was all their idea, not the FBI's.

Update at 11:39 a.m. ET: The suspects allegedly planned initially to try to set off an explosive on May Day. Brando Baxter, one of the suspects, allegedly says that he would join a May Day protest and "act as a decoy or diversion" to move the crowd and police away from the bridge, which would then be blown up.

The criminal complaint quotes Baxter as saying he thought that if the group got caught they would end up at the Guantanamo Bay detention facility.

Update at 11:32 a.m. ET: The FBI informant allegedly taped secret conversations with the suspects, the criminal complaint says. It quotes two of the suspects, Douglas Wright and Brandon Baxter, as saying that they did not want people to think they are terrorists, so they were looking to blow up a bridge at night or to pretend to be a construction crew and stop traffic onto the bridge before the explosion in order to limit the number of casualties and the potential for killing possible supporters.

The criminal complaint includes an excerpt of an alleged comment by Baxter that was taped by the informant in which he says, "Taking out a bridge in the business district would cost the ... um .. would cost the corporate bigwigs a lot of money not just because of structural damage to the bridge, but because it's going to stop a lot of people going to work."

Update at 11:31 a.m. ET: The criminal complaint alleges that Douglas Wright, portrayed as leader of the group, had ruled out attacks on tunnels because of tight security and surveillance cameras.

Update at 11:24 a.m. ET: The criminal complaint quotes Douglas Wright as telling the informant that he and four others had attended protest events "in order to try and recruit new members and to gauge the police response to various protest activities."

Wright also allegedly said the group was trying to recruit new members at homeless shelters and neighborhoods on the east side of Cleveland.

Update at 11:20 a.m. ET: The criminal complaint against the suspects quotes one of the men as allegedly telling an FBI informant that he and others had been discussing "violence and destruction to physical property in a variety of ways in order to send a message to corporations and the United States government."

198 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:32:58pm

"Occupy" Movement Was Infiltrated By FBI Informant In Cleveland Bridge Bombing Probe

It was at the October 21 OWS event that the informant first met Douglas Wright, 26, who reportedly confided details of his group’s planned attacks “against corporate America and the financial system,” according to court filings.

The plot was already underway when the informant heard about it. They changed their target and method several times. There's no indication the informant was directing them.

199 Kragar  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:34:10pm

Why Couldn't Marissa Alexander Stand Her Ground in Florida?

What happened to Marissa Alexander sure sounds a lot like 'standing your ground': her abusive husband came after her, choked her, and when she finally broke free, she grabbed a gun fired a single warning shot into ceiling ... so why is she set to serve 20 years in jail?

Well, we imagine her prosecutor Angela Corey, who's also charging George Zimmerman, has the unfulfilling answers. The Florida Times Union's Charles Broward reported on April 21, "A judge denied [Alexander] immunity in a Stand Your Ground hearing. And after a jury found her guilty, she faces a mandatory term of 20 years in prison." Yes, there's the rage-inducing fact that Zimmerman who allegedly pursued and killed Trayvon Martin was allowed to walk free that night while Alexander is going to spend 20 years of her life in prison for a single warning shot. But it's also complex in that, those seeking justice for Trayvon Martin may have to side with a prosecutor who give denies Alexander's (and the NAACP's) plea for a "stand your ground" ruling, like the one that was initially afforded to Zimmerman.

20 years for a fucking warning shot after being assaulted? WTF is that shit?

200 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:34:29pm

re: #186 Gus

Tomorrow I'm going to sell my neighbors a cache of illegal machine guns. Then I'm going to call the cops and have them arrested! I'll be a hero.

//

Don't forget to put in a low ball offer to their mortgage holder to take the home off their hands as is before all that costly repossession paperwork nonsense gets started...then you get all the stuff they left behind when they went to jail too!

201 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:35:02pm

re: #199 Kragar

Why Couldn't Marissa Alexander Stand Her Ground in Florida?

20 years for a fucking warning shot after being assaulted? WTF is that shit?

Image: amarrissa-alexander.jpg

202 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:35:28pm

re: #198 Killgore Trout

"Occupy" Movement Was Infiltrated By FBI Informant In Cleveland Bridge Bombing Probe

The plot was already underway when the informant heard about it. They changed their target and method several times. There's no indication the informant was directing them.

* As the alleged plotters batted around assorted attack ideas--like bombing a “Nazi/Klan headquarters” or blowing up a Federal Reserve bank--Wright joked that he would wear a suicide vest and blow himself up, “but advised he would have to be very drunk.”

* A local Justice Center was considered a good target, but a bombing there was rejected since the accused plotters believed “they would risk hurting inmates.”

* Wright suggested using Google Maps to figure out the area near the Cleveland-area bridge “where the bombs will be dropped and the get-away route."

* Defendant Brandon Baxter, 20, mused that if the plotters were caught, “they will all go to Guantanamo Bay” and not a “normal prison.”

* Baxter also “suggested getting tacks that they could throw out of the back of the car if they get in a chase.” This getaway tactic was last successfully used in a Batman episode from 1967.

Heh. Shows the intelligence involved with this group if idiots.

203 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:35:58pm

re: #199 Kragar

Why Couldn't Marissa Alexander Stand Her Ground in Florida?

20 years for a fucking warning shot after being assaulted? WTF is that shit?

I'm pretty sure though that someone here (cough, cough, cough) is already Googling to find a way to justify the 20 year sentence.

204 Targetpractice  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:36:21pm

re: #199 Kragar

Why Couldn't Marissa Alexander Stand Her Ground in Florida?

20 years for a fucking warning shot after being assaulted? WTF is that shit?

It gets better. The prosecutor in Alexander's case? Angela Corey, the woman we're hoping will put Zimmerman in jail.

205 Varek Raith  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:36:47pm

Hahaha, oh Florida.

206 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:37:08pm

re: #189 Simply Sarah

Well, there's a difference between something being legal and something being wise or helpful. For example, ignoring the fine entrapment line for now, let us say someone is mad at the government. This, by itself, is not illegal and does not innately cause harm. The harm comes when it is acted upon in a negative manner. Now, if the police became aware that someone was struggling with this and set up a sting to aid in pushing her over the edge, an edge that she may have been able to avoid if she got help/support instead, does that really help society?

I don't think they're allowed to push somebody over the edge. Law enforcement's job isn't to provide help and counseling. They are there to protect the public and enforce the laws. If the court decides that the defendant has psychological/mental health issues then they are sentenced accordingly or given counseling in prison. I don;t think it's reasonable to expect the police to make that decision.

207 Digital Display  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:37:16pm

re: #192 Varek Raith

Wasn't that a clusterfuck?

Amazing stupidity.. Perhaps embedded GPS and RFID tags could have tracked the guns better? But why sell guns to them in the first place?
Next we'll be selling AK-47's to terrorists in the ME..You know..To track them and stuff..

208 Shvaughn  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:37:18pm

re: #174 Gus

Oh. And this is really pretty stupid because I've raised my eyebrows when they pull these sting operations on domestic Jihadists. According to your make believe fantasy about me then I'm siding with Jihadists?

Here's an example of you doing that: being concerned about the means by which the FBI gets their "evidence" while not actually being supportive of Jihadist nutjobs.

209 [deleted]  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:37:58pm
210 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:38:47pm

re: #208 Shvaughn

Here's an example of you doing that: being concerned about the means by which the FBI gets their "evidence" while not actually being supportive of Jihadist nutjobs.

Thanks. I try and think out of the box and use critical thinking. I skipped a beat during the Bush years. ;)

211 Poiks  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:39:15pm

Uh-oh...it's an INTERNATIONAL conspiracy.

212 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:39:36pm

re: #202 NJDhockeyfan

* As the alleged plotters batted around assorted attack ideas--like bombing a “Nazi/Klan headquarters” or blowing up a Federal Reserve bank--Wright joked that he would wear a suicide vest and blow himself up, “but advised he would have to be very drunk.”

* A local Justice Center was considered a good target, but a bombing there was rejected since the accused plotters believed “they would risk hurting inmates.”

* Wright suggested using Google Maps to figure out the area near the Cleveland-area bridge “where the bombs will be dropped and the get-away route."

* Defendant Brandon Baxter, 20, mused that if the plotters were caught, “they will all go to Guantanamo Bay” and not a “normal prison.”

* Baxter also “suggested getting tacks that they could throw out of the back of the car if they get in a chase.” This getaway tactic was last successfully used in a Batman episode from 1967.

Heh. Shows the intelligence involved with this group if idiots.

Yeah, I loved that part.

213 Obdicut  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:40:08pm

re: #199 Kragar

Why Couldn't Marissa Alexander Stand Her Ground in Florida?

20 years for a fucking warning shot after being assaulted? WTF is that shit?

The husband is claiming it wasn't a warning shot but an actual attempt to kill him, and there were kids around which I think ups the ante.

214 MittDoesNotCompute  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:40:17pm

re: #211 Poiks

Uh-oh...it's an INTERNATIONAL conspiracy.

Who would of thought that Toyota is full of Commies?

215 Varek Raith  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:41:29pm

I think I let my anger get the best of me.
I blame KT's damn frogs.
:P

216 Eventual Carrion  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:41:32pm

re: #199 Kragar

Why Couldn't Marissa Alexander Stand Her Ground in Florida?

20 years for a fucking warning shot after being assaulted? WTF is that shit?

Give you one guess what color Marissa Alexander is.

217 Targetpractice  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:42:43pm

re: #213 Obdicut

The husband is claiming it wasn't a warning shot but an actual attempt to kill him, and there were kids around which I think ups the ante.

I've read the court transcripts. The man admitted on the stand that he was making every effort to keep her from leaving the house, and screamed "I'm going to kill you!" even after seeing she'd grabbed her gun.

The judge still came to the conclusion that she "could" have escaped.

218 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:42:53pm

re: #215 Varek Raith

I think I let my anger get the best of me.
I blame KT's damn frogs.
:P

Image: excellent-frog-andrew-long-dream-gift-economy-infinite-growth-carolyn-elliott-occupy-wall-street-occupy-pittsburgh1.jpg

219 Varek Raith  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:43:42pm

re: #218 Killgore Trout

Image: excellent-frog-andrew-long-dream-gift-economy-infinite-growth-carolyn-elliott-occupy-wall-street-occupy-pittsburgh1.jpg

He needs a hooded robe.

220 Shvaughn  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:43:55pm

re: #218 Killgore Trout

Image: excellent-frog-andrew-long-dream-gift-economy-infinite-growth-carolyn-elliott-occupy-wall-street-occupy-pittsburgh1.jpg

Occupy Pittsburgh? What kind of weird image URL are you quoting here?

221 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:43:57pm

re: #196 lawhawk

Half way, yes. I was thinking it's probably a ratio or a fraction and it varies with each case. No one of course arguing that the perps are 100 percent innocent and merely victims of the FBI -- contrary to what a wingnut might assume. I'm sure they're already blogging about it. So as fraction it probably involves something like 3/4 being a result of the perps and 1/4 a result of the FBI.

222 Varek Raith  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:44:10pm

re: #219 Varek Raith

He needs a hooded robe.

Like my avatar.
:)

223 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:44:36pm

'May Day' protests turn violent in Downtown Seattle

SEATTLE -- Some May Day protestors are running rampant in Downtown Seattle, smashing windows at businesses and cars as they marched through city streets Tuesday afternoon.

Video from Air 4 has shown smashed windows at a Wells Fargo, a Downtown Federal Courthouse, and Niketown, among others.

KOMO News reporter Joel Moreno says he and his photographer had been hit with a paint bomb while covering the march and ensuing riot.

He says about 50 people clad in all black outfits were throwing paint at buildings and cars, marking the anarchist symbols, "but there were certainly others not dressed in black participating in criminal behavior."

The march itself began with about 200 people and then the group in black inserted itself into the middle of the parade body.

"They wasted no time," Moreno said. "They went about two blocks before they started damaging property."

Moreno said that's when he was hit with a paint bomb. But up ahead he started hearing glass shatter.

"We turned the corner and saw large storefronts at Wells Fargo smashed in," he said. "We saw a firebomb of some sort at the U.S. Court of Appeals where they went in and bashed the windows." Moreno said it looks like a firebomb was lobbed inside: "We saw smoke coming from inside the windows."

224 erik_t  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:44:46pm

re: #217 Targetpractice

The judge still came to the conclusion that she "could" have escaped.

Our metric for acceptable action is still 'felt threatened', right? What, again, does being able to escape have to do with anything in Florida?

225 Eventual Carrion  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:46:19pm

re: #213 Obdicut

The husband is claiming it wasn't a warning shot but an actual attempt to kill him, and there were kids around which I think ups the ante.

Wonder what he had to say about choking her in front of the children. If he had choked her out how was he going to explain that to the children. Then again, maybe he had done this before so the kids knew what to expect (as Marissa prob did too, hence the weapon firing).

226 blueraven  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:46:29pm

re: #203 Gus

I'm pretty sure though that someone here (cough, cough, cough) is already Googling to find a way to justify the 20 year sentence.

OK to be honest I was...because this story sounds absolutely fucking insane. But so far I cant find any reason for this woman to be in jail!

227 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:47:42pm
228 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:48:09pm

re: #223 NJDhockeyfan

'May Day' protests turn violent in Downtown Seattle

I expect the destruction and violence. I just hope we can get through the day without a terrorist attack or somebody getting killed.

229 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:48:43pm

[Clutches pearls.]

230 kirkspencer  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:49:07pm

re: #217 Targetpractice

I've read the court transcripts. The man admitted on the stand that he was making every effort to keep her from leaving the house, and screamed "I'm going to kill you!" even after seeing she'd grabbed her gun.

The judge still came to the conclusion that she "could" have escaped.

This is why, if she's not granted a retrial, she is likely to get an appeal. The judge specifically decided contrary to the letter of the law.

Add to this that the judge indicated a reason for doubting her fear for her life (the basis for self-defense) is that she fired a warning shot into the ceiling instead of shooting at her assaulter.

231 Eventual Carrion  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:51:47pm

re: #230 kirkspencer

This is why, if she's not granted a retrial, she is likely to get an appeal. The judge specifically decided contrary to the letter of the law.

Add to this that the judge indicated a reason for doubting her fear for her life (the basis for self-defense) is that she fired a warning shot into the ceiling instead of shooting at her assaulter.

Yes, because gunning someone down is so easy. The kids could have cleaned up after they drug him outside to bleed out. That judge is fucking idiot.

232 Varek Raith  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:52:17pm

re: #227 Gus

[Embedded content]

Yeah...
This whole attack by the GOP is lolwtf.

233 Obdicut  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:52:19pm

re: #230 kirkspencer

Hah. That's classic. "If you were so scared, why didn't you just kill him?"

What idiocy.

234 Gus  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:53:39pm

More people have died as a result of the financial meltdown of 2008 -- brought to you by Wall Street financial firms -- then all of the OWS protests put together. It is not as easy to quantify or extract.

235 goddamnedfrank  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:54:07pm

re: #230 kirkspencer

This is why, if she's not granted a retrial, she is likely to get an appeal. The judge specifically decided contrary to the letter of the law.

Add to this that the judge indicated a reason for doubting her fear for her life (the basis for self-defense) is that she fired a warning shot into the ceiling instead of shooting at her assaulter.

Warning shots sound good in theory but they're always a bad idea. Not saying that she deserves anything close to 20 years in jail, but neither do I think that kind of behavior should be rewarded.

236 Obdicut  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:57:13pm

re: #234 Gus

You should read Terry Pratchett's "Going Postal" and "Making Money". There's a great bit in Going Postal where a con-man is informed how many people he's killed through his small, petty crimes, and it really gets to him.

237 Targetpractice  Tue, May 1, 2012 1:58:01pm

re: #230 kirkspencer

This is why, if she's not granted a retrial, she is likely to get an appeal. The judge specifically decided contrary to the letter of the law.

Add to this that the judge indicated a reason for doubting her fear for her life (the basis for self-defense) is that she fired a warning shot into the ceiling instead of shooting at her assaulter.

Oh, this judge's decision was a study in how much of a joke SYG is. The husband admitted on the stand that he wasn't worried about chasing her into the garage because he knew that the garage door was malfunctioning and required repairs to operate. And that the keys for her car were still in the kitchen, which meant for her to leave, she'd have had to reenter the house to get them.

Judge still put in the decision that Alexander could have, instead of grabbing her gun, just got in her car and drove away from the house.

Actually, the decision not only shows SYG a joke, it also turns "Castle Doctrine" on its fucking head.

238 MittDoesNotCompute  Tue, May 1, 2012 2:01:27pm

re: #217 Targetpractice

I've read the court transcripts. The man admitted on the stand that he was making every effort to keep her from leaving the house, and screamed "I'm going to kill you!" even after seeing she'd grabbed her gun.

The judge still came to the conclusion that she "could" have escaped.

She should have taken a page out of GZ's playbook, as much as it makes me want to retch; it'd been much easier to have claimed SYG if she put that bullet into her abusive husband instead of in the ceiling.

Florida's SYG law apparently only works if one is white and male...and if you don't leave the person you're shooting at alive.

/dead men tell no tales

239 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 1, 2012 2:20:18pm

re: #37 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Um, yes, actually, one of the favorite LDS hymns has the chorus:

Onward, ever onward,
As we glory in his name,
forward, pressing forward,
as a triumph song we sing,
God our strength will be
press forward ever
called to serve our King

Of course, that's one of the missionary hymns, and I imagine some of the people freaking out would rather see commies on the doorstep.

If the missionaries on my doorstep sang--perhaps in barbershop harmony--they would get a much better reception.

240 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 1, 2012 2:21:14pm

re: #63 HappyWarrior

This is so stupid even for the Washington Times. Really this stupid red baiting needs to stop.

Red baiting in the near-complete absence of Reds is more of an art form than a political move.

241 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 1, 2012 2:21:46pm

re: #65 NJDhockeyfan

It's heating up in NY.

"Fuck the police from New York to Greece".

Cleverer than the usual.

242 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 1, 2012 2:22:18pm

re: #70 Learned Mother of Zion

Yeah, but now it's freaking painful to see how desperately they are trying to establish their "hipness." What is that word you call people who are just too, too "hip" for their skin? Twee?

Also, why is The Forverts writing all these puff pieces about Roseanne Barr? WTF is that all about? Did she like, buy the paper or something?

They probably hired someone from the clique at Heeb.

243 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 1, 2012 2:24:25pm

re: #70 Learned Mother of Zion

Yeah, but now it's freaking painful to see how desperately they are trying to establish their "hipness." What is that word you call people who are just too, too "hip" for their skin? Twee?

Also, why is The Forverts writing all these puff pieces about Roseanne Barr? WTF is that all about? Did she like, buy the paper or something?

I should also mention that the publication of Congregation Sha'ar Zahav (gay synagogue in SF) was called, for many years, "The Gaily Forward".

244 Logician  Tue, May 1, 2012 3:25:22pm

And in Israel, when former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (not a Marxist) founded a new political party in 2005, he called it Kadima, meaning 'forward'.

245 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 1, 2012 5:55:07pm

re: #199 Kragar

Why Couldn't Marissa Alexander Stand Her Ground in Florida?

20 years for a fucking warning shot after being assaulted? WTF is that shit?

Wait, I thought the whole point of this law was to help poor women who were being abused by their husbands? Someone told me that!

///

246 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 1, 2012 5:56:55pm

re: #201 Gus

Image: amarrissa-alexander.jpg

She's five-one. Guy is a serial abuser who choked her. She didn't actually hurt him.

As my dad likes to say: "God created them male and female. Sam Colt made them equal."

As Mr. Bumble liked to say: "The law is an ass."

247 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 1, 2012 5:58:07pm

re: #217 Targetpractice

I've read the court transcripts. The man admitted on the stand that he was making every effort to keep her from leaving the house, and screamed "I'm going to kill you!" even after seeing she'd grabbed her gun.

The judge still came to the conclusion that she "could" have escaped.

But why should she have to? The entire point of this law was supposed to be that you never had to back down from a living soul, even if you could.

248 wheat-dogg  Tue, May 1, 2012 8:06:25pm

I tweeted about this last night (my time). Here's the complete poem, which I now know has a hidden Marxist agenda.
//

The Charge of the Light Brigade
by Alfred, Lord Tennyson.

Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
"Forward the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns!" he said.
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

Forward, the Light Brigade!"
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Some one had blunder'd.
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die.
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of hell
Rode the six hundred.

Flash'd all their sabres bare,
Flash'd as they turn'd in air
Sabring the gunners there,
Charging an army, while
All the world wonder'd.
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right thro' the line they broke;
Cossack and Russian
Reel'd from the sabre-stroke
Shatter'd and sunder'd.
Then they rode back, but not,
Not the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
While horse and hero fell,
They that had fought so well
Came thro' the jaws of Death,
Back from the mouth of hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of six hundred.

When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wonder'd.
Honor the charge they made!
Honor the Light Brigade,
Noble six hundred!


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