Obama Speaks in Ohio

“Corporations aren’t people. People are people.”
Politics • Views: 28,637

President Obama is speaking at a campaign rally in Ohio right now — it’s live on MSNBC and CNN. Here’s an open thread to discuss; again, I’m struck by the fact that Obama is a much more genuine and passionate speaker than Mitt Romney will ever be.

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140 comments
1 darthstar  Sat, May 5, 2012 10:38:39am

“Corporations aren’t people. People are people.”

Win.

2 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 5, 2012 10:45:56am
3 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 5, 2012 10:46:19am

“As long as I’m President, I will never allow Medicare to be turned into a voucher that would end the program as we know it.”

4 darthstar  Sat, May 5, 2012 10:46:43am

Yes! Defending Planned Parenthood! Good for you, Mr. President.

5 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 5, 2012 10:48:30am
6 darthstar  Sat, May 5, 2012 10:50:14am

President Obama is like a dilithium crystal…and the crowd is electric.

7 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 5, 2012 10:56:02am

Wow, Mitt Romney is just hopelessly outclassed in the speaking department. That was a barn-burner.

8 darthstar  Sat, May 5, 2012 10:56:58am

re: #7 Charles Johnson

Wow, Mitt Romney is just hopelessly outclassed in the speaking department. That was a barn-burner.

That was my thought…if President Obama stays on message like this through every public appearance, Mitt Romney will be so screwed it won’t even be funny.

9 sprezzatura  Sat, May 5, 2012 10:59:28am

So nice to see Obama finally turning on his impressive ability to give a rousing speech. I just wish he’d done more of it the last 4 years.

10 allegro  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:01:11am

It’s a once-in-a lifetime event for me to remember exactly where I was when I first heard a politician speak and think “THIS is the guy I want to be voting for for president.” That was the occasion of turning on the TV one evening during the 2004 Democratic convention to catch Obama already a few seconds into his speech. As he spoke, he sat me straight up in the chair going “who IS this guy?!” I had never seen him or heard of him before but I sure made a note of his funny name and followed his career after that. He is an amazing orator. I have my disagreements with some of the things he has done in his first term, but I look forward to casting another vote for him and not just because the other guy is a very scary prospect.

11 CarleeCork  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:04:24am

re: #2 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

You will catch hell for that one.

12 abolitionist  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:04:33am

Full house expected as Obama comes to Richmond VA

“People line up around 10:30 a.m. outside the Siegel Center for President Barack Obama and the first lady’s rally.”

13 CarleeCork  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:05:14am

re: #7 Charles Johnson

Wow, Mitt Romney is just hopelessly outclassed in the speaking department. That was a barn-burner.

I look forward to a debate between the two.

14 CarleeCork  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:06:16am

re: #9 sprezzatura

So nice to see Obama finally turning on his impressive ability to give a rousing speech. I just wish he’d done more of it the last 4 years.

He’s been kinda busy, pulling the economy out of the hole, and getting rid of bin laden.

15 allegro  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:12:35am

re: #13 CarleeCork

I look forward to a debate between the two.

You and me both. It should be very entertaining to see Obama using Mitt’s own words and flip-flops to put him into some very tight corners.

16 [deleted]  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:15:53am
17 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:16:26am
18 abolitionist  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:18:33am

re: #12 abolitionist

The president’s rally here will be the second of the day, following an event in Columbus, Ohio.
[snip]
If you’re interested in hearing the president’s speech but don’t want to manage the crowds, it is slated to be broadcast on C-SPAN.
[Link: www2.timesdispatch.com…]

Live at 2:45pm (ET) on C-SPAN —video see link at right.

19 Charleston Chew  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:19:41am

re: #16 MikeySDCA

He reads well from a teleprompter and he has good writers. BFD.

You forgot to mention Ayers. AYERS!

Oh, and ACORN!

20 b_sharp  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:20:00am

re: #6 darthstar

President Obama is like a dilithium crystal…and the crowd is electric.

Unfortunately, Dilithium Crystals have the reputation of giving out at critical times. You might want to rethink that analogy.

21 Lidane  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:21:15am

re: #14 CarleeCork

He’s been kinda busy, pulling the economy out of the hole, and getting rid of bin laden.

Image: lolwingnuts.jpg

Heh.

22 allegro  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:23:02am

re: #16 MikeySDCA

He reads well from a teleprompter and he has good writers. BFD.

Got any more rightwing nonsense to share? Please do. It makes me laugh.

23 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:23:43am

re: #16 MikeySDCA

He reads well from a teleprompter and he has good writers. BFD.

You know who else reads well from a teleprompter and has good writers? Hitler!

Sincerely,
The Heartland Institute

24 Charleston Chew  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:24:33am

re: #20 Ice Cream Sandwich (Lick me if you dare)

Unfortunately, Dilithium Crystals have the reputation of giving out at critical times. You might want to rethink that analogy.

Then the campaign will have to make its way to Rigel XII to obtain new crystals in exchange for Mudd’s women. #nerdalert

25 b_sharp  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:24:50am

re: #16 MikeySDCA

He reads well from a teleprompter and he has good writers. BFD.

Ronald Reagan has become a mythic hero because of his ability to move people with his delivery of speeches written by other people.

26 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:25:18am

re: #16 MikeySDCA

Seriously though, presumably Romney has access to those things as well so it’s a fair comparison.

27 Lidane  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:27:35am

Dear Mitt,

Not only did the POTUS rip you a new one in front of thousands today, but we’re busy trying to screw you over behind the scenes.

Have a great Cinco de Mayo!

Sincerely,
Luap Nor Voters

28 abolitionist  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:27:36am
29 [deleted]  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:28:09am
30 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:28:25am

Looks like the Gitmo trial may become a zoo.
9/11 Defendants Stage Protest at Guantanamo Hearing

Through much of the session, the defendants seemed to be trying to give the impression they were in a different world than the rest of the court.

Cheryl Bormann, a civilian attorney for Mr. bin Attash, appeared in a conservative Islamic outfit that left only her face uncovered and she asked the court to order other women present to wear “appropriate” clothing so that defendants don’t have to avert their eyes “for fear of committing a sin under their faith.”

31 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:30:21am

re: #29 MikeySDCA

In other words, you are conceding my point.

Which is what, exactly?

32 Lidane  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:33:28am

re: #31 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter

Which is what, exactly?

Image: teleprompter.jpg

ZOMG! Teleprompters are evil! Real presidents don’t use them!

Eleventy!

33 Kragar  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:37:46am

re: #32 Lidane

Image: teleprompter.jpg

Roger Corman presents….

Teleprompter vs Etch-a-Sketch: the Battle for the Presidency

34 b_sharp  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:42:05am

You know who else is really good at delivering professionally written speeches? Palin. However as a sign of her muddled thinking, her off the cuff speech, and speeches written by her are no more than confused word salad.

The big difference between Obama and people like Palin is in the ability to think clearly, with well organized thoughts and a sizable vocabulary. The way Obama uses language while he’s speaking, with his great timing lets the listener know he’s actually understanding, and owning, what he’s saying.

Even when he pauses, during his non-scripted talks, it looks like he’s really considering the question and is formulating his best answer.

35 Tigger2  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:42:25am

The people that complain about teleprompters are the most petty stupid shits in the world.

36 b_sharp  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:43:46am

re: #34 Ice Cream Sandwich (Lick me, I dare ya)

Hey Darthstar, this is quite the homage to your previous name, No?

37 Lidane  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:44:10am

re: #30 Killgore Trout

Looks like the Gitmo trial may become a zoo.

No one could have ever predicted that. Ever.

If anyone actually thought that any of the Gitmo prisoners would come to trial and it wouldn’t become a media circus, they were either naive or in denial.

38 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:45:36am

re: #37 Lidane

No one could have ever predicted that. Ever.

If anyone actually thought that any of the Gitmo prisoners would come to trial and it wouldn’t become a media circus, they were either naive or in denial.

Hopefully the judge can keep things moving but I wouldn’t be surprised to see the trial called off and delayed indefinitely.

39 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:46:51am

Mikey, with no elaboration forthcoming I’ll just break down your original comment instead.

He reads well from a teleprompter and he has good writers.

Yes, I concede this point. He speaks well with or without a teleprompter. And obviously whoever wrote that speech knows what the hell they are doing.

BFD.

Nope, I don’t concede this point. The ability of a candidate to speak clearly and their choice of speechwriters can have an effect on the outcome of an election. I consider that a big deal, and not in the sarcastic sense.

40 ProBosniaLiberal  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:50:04am

You guys will help me in finding the reputation of people that friends on Facebook show on their profiles.

First one: Shaykh Yasir Qadhi

41 b_sharp  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:51:38am

re: #40 ProGunLiberal

You guys will help me in finding the reputation of people that friends on Facebook show on their profiles.

First one: Shaykh Yasir Qadhi

We will, will we? How so?

42 b_sharp  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:52:26am

re: #39 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter

Why did Mikey run away?

43 ProBosniaLiberal  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:53:15am

re: #41 b_sharp

I’m relatively busy with school stuff. I’m not sure what to look for.

44 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:54:36am

re: #42 b_sharp

Why did Mikey run away?

Beats me. I suppose he didn’t want to elucidate his point further.

45 [deleted]  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:55:17am
46 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:56:59am

re: #45 MikeySDCA

It was self-explanatory.

So are you saying that the speaking ability of a politician doesn’t have an effect on their chances of getting elected? Or are you saying that the outcome of the election isn’t a big deal?

47 b_sharp  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:57:33am

re: #45 MikeySDCA

It was self-explanatory.

It was incomplete.

48 funky chicken  Sat, May 5, 2012 11:59:01am

re: #30 Killgore Trout

Cheryl Bormann, a civilian attorney for Mr. bin Attash, appeared in a conservative Islamic outfit that left only her face uncovered and she asked the court to order other women present to wear “appropriate” clothing so that defendants don’t have to avert their eyes “for fear of committing a sin under their faith.”

LOLZ

49 Obdicut  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:00:35pm

re: #16 MikeySDCA

He reads well from a teleprompter and he has good writers. BFD.

He also does good off-the-cuff talking, as when he talked directly to the GOP and whupped ‘em. Which also demonstrates he has an actual grasp of the issues.

50 [deleted]  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:01:01pm
51 Lidane  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:01:13pm

Chilaquiles for brunch today. Many cervezas on the agenda tonight with my grad school classmates. Mitt Romney getting ripped a new one by the POTUS while Luap Nor’s fanboys try to lay the groundwork for a convention floor coup by exploiting the byzantine rules the RNC has in place.

Today is a good day. Haha.

52 ProBosniaLiberal  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:02:23pm

re: #43 ProGunLiberal

NYT says he is a non-violent Salafi. I won’t listen to him.

53 b_sharp  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:04:38pm

re: #50 MikeySDCA

Neither. The ability to read well from a teleprompter and to hire good writers sheds precious little light on fitness for high office.

That was my point in #34, which also pointed out Obama’s abilities beyond that.

54 [deleted]  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:04:50pm
55 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:05:26pm

re: #50 MikeySDCA

Neither. The ability to read well from a teleprompter and to hire good writers sheds precious little light on fitness for high office.

Are you saying that only the things that relate strongly to a candidate’s fitness for office decide the outcome of an election? No other factors such as oration, charisma, media image, scandals, etc can have an effect?

56 Targetpractice  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:05:57pm

re: #51 Lidane

Chilaquiles for brunch today. Many cervezas on the agenda tonight with my grad school classmates. Mitt Romney getting ripped a new one by the POTUS while Luap Nor’s fanboys try to lay the groundwork for a convention floor coup by exploiting the byzantine rules the RNC has in place.

Today is a good day. Haha.

And there’s still plenty of hours left in the day.

57 b_sharp  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:06:39pm

re: #54 MikeySDCA

FYI: IM not particularly HO, the last POTUS who was not contemptible was Eisenhower.

Conveniently in power before you were born or were a child.

58 [deleted]  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:07:01pm
59 b_sharp  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:07:28pm

re: #55 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter

Are you saying that only the things that relate strongly to a candidate’s fitness for office decide the outcome of an election? No other factors such as oration, charisma, media image, scandals, etc can have an effect?

No, he’s saying Obama is a putz.

60 allegro  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:07:42pm

re: #28 abolitionist

Thanks much for the link. I’m watching Michelle’s speech now. She’s terrific!

61 [deleted]  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:08:03pm
62 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:09:07pm

re: #58 MikeySDCA

No, quite the contrary. Given the idiocy of the electorate, fitness for office has no effect on the outcome of most elections.

So it appears you have conceded my point. Unless you are saying the election outcome isn’t a big deal.

63 b_sharp  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:10:40pm

re: #61 MikeySDCA

The latter, but I do read history.

Do you also consider context?

64 abolitionist  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:11:21pm

re: #60 allegro

Thanks much for the link. I’m watching Michelle’s speech now. She’s terrific!

The link for the Richmond VA event seems to be active now. (Under Playlist, at right) [Link: www.c-span.org…]

65 jaunte  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:11:27pm

Republicans’ war on the TelePrompter — and its limits

Republican candidates rely on attacking President Obama’s use of a TelePrompter for one reason: It works. Gingrich’s Prompter line is regularly one of the biggest laugh-getters of his speech and Santorum’s “make TelePrompters illegal” line was almost certainly a planned hit not an off-the-cuff remark.

Why? Because, for Republican base voters, it epitomizes everything they dislike about President Obama. It reveals that “he’s all show,” explained Curt Anderson, a Republican media consultant who did work for Texas Gov. Rick Perry’s presidential bid but is now unaffiliated in the race. “All hat, no cattle.”

Added Rob Stutzman, a California-based Republican consultant: “Obama took the TelePrompter to a new level of absurdity when he reached the White House. It seemed he couldn’t even greet a little league team without the Prompter in place.”

In short: The use of a Prompter gets at authenticity, which should be the watch word for all politicians in the coming election. These days voters tend to believe that all politicians are telling them what they want to hear.

Romney, of course, has no problems with authenticity…

66 allegro  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:12:00pm

re: #58 MikeySDCA

No, quite the contrary. Given the idiocy of the electorate, fitness for office has no effect on the outcome of most elections.

Obama has proven himself quite fit for office. A few stumbles, primarily related to trying again and again to work with the Republicans in the House and Senate with no chance for success, yet accomplishing quite an impressive amount of work in spite of them. It seems us “idiots” who voted him into office aren’t such idiots after all.

67 ProBosniaLiberal  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:12:07pm

re: #65 jaunte

Because he has no personality, and Mormonism can morph at the drop of a hat.

68 [deleted]  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:12:22pm
69 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:21:01pm

OT:

I have to say that NASA has been getting better at making media. Here is some inspiration for a lazy Saturday afternoon. Best at full screen and 1080p.

70 Lidane  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:25:33pm

re: #65 jaunte

Republicans’ war on the TelePrompter — and its limits

The teleprompter war is so stupid. EVERY politician on both sides of the aisle uses them. Even St. Ronald of Reagan used them.

The people who make a big deal out of President Obama using a teleprompter are just trying to focus on something inane so they don’t say what really bothers them about the POTUS — his skin color.

71 Kragar  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:28:10pm

Suddenly, Iron Maiden

72 allegro  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:28:10pm

re: #70 Lidane

The teleprompter war is so stupid. EVERY politician on both sides of the aisle uses them. Even St. Ronald of Reagan used them.

The people who make a big deal out of President Obama using a teleprompter are just trying to focus on something inane so they don’t say what really bothers them about the POTUS — his skin color.

And they somehow manage to completely ignore the many press conferences, the QA session with the Republican congress people (in which he tore them to pieces very elegantly and gracefully), the debates, etc. when he has spoken without a teleprompter or speech writing assistance.

73 Obdicut  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:35:08pm

re: #67 ProGunLiberal

and Mormonism can morph at the drop of a hat.

What does that mean?

74 Lidane  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:39:28pm

re: #72 allegro

And they somehow manage to completely ignore the many press conferences, the QA session with the Republican congress people (in which he tore them to pieces very elegantly and gracefully), the debates, etc. when he has spoken without a teleprompter or speech writing assistance.

Well sure. They’ve got to stick to the wingnut narrative that Barack Obama is so dependent on a teleprompter that he’s completely incapable of forming any sort of coherent thought without it.

Of course, that begs the question that if he’s so inarticulate and stupid without a teleprompter, how is he also supposed to be an evil mastermind that is usurpring the Presidency and who is somehow able to pull the strings of power to silence his enemies and keep his “real” birth hidden?

75 Decatur Deb  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:40:58pm

re: #54 MikeySDCA

FYI: IM not particularly HO, the last POTUS who was not contemptible was Eisenhower.

Eisenhower turned me into a Democrat. I didn’t think a US president would ever lie about the U2. Quite young, then.

76 ProBosniaLiberal  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:41:18pm

re: #73 Obdicut

The flip that magically came regarding Polygamy in the 1890’s, the flip they did in the 1970’s regarding race, and their whitewashing of their ideas on gender come to mind. Not to mention their mealy-mouthed responses to the anger of Prop 8. Which is what initially caused me to research the history of Joseph Smith and the LDS.

77 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:41:20pm

re: #70 Lidane

The teleprompter war is so stupid. EVERY politician on both sides of the aisle uses them. Even St. Ronald of Reagan used them.

The people who make a big deal out of President Obama using a teleprompter are just trying to focus on something inane so they don’t say what really bothers them about the POTUS — his skin color.

It’s an attempt to turn one of Obama’s strengths into a weakness. But they screwed themselves with this one. Without a teleprompter Obama does fine. But Romney is hopeless with or without one.

78 Obdicut  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:44:27pm

re: #76 ProGunLiberal

The flip that magically came regarding Polygamy in the 1890’s, the flip they did in the 1970’s regarding race, and their whitewashing of their ideas on gender come to mind. Not to mention their mealy-mouthed responses to the anger of Prop 8. Which is what initially caused me to research the history of Joseph Smith and the LDS.

How the fuck is that different than any other religion?

79 freetoken  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:45:16pm

re: #76 ProGunLiberal

Utah became a state in 1896… and thus the outlawing of polygamy was, how can we say, convenient.

80 sagehen  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:46:04pm

re: #75 Decatur Deb

Eisenhower turned me into a Democrat. I didn’t think a US president would ever lie about the U2. Quite young, then.

By the time I heard about that (in a high school history textbook), Presidents had lied about so many worse things, and with less reason, that I didn’t even blink at it.

I’m a huge Eisenhower fan, I think he’s the best we’ve had since Teddy Roosevelt.

81 ProBosniaLiberal  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:48:34pm

re: #79 freetoken

Exactly!

And Mormonism is different, because they have actively tried to change their texts. With Christianity, alot of mistranslation occurred, but that’s it.

And let’s not mention the Mountain Meadows massacre, or the Utah War. Bluntly, the Mormons and the South are equivalent in my mind.

82 sagehen  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:49:18pm

re: #78 Obdicut

How the fuck is that different than any other religion?

Not a yeshivah boy, huh?

When Judaism changes its understanding of an issue, it’s because rabbis have debated and discussed and published philosophical arguments and eventually persuaded enough people for it to become the new standard.

We don’t have sudden “revelations” that the hoohah at the top of the hierarchy supposedly heard directly from The God Who Changed His Mind.

83 erik_t  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:50:13pm

re: #81 ProGunLiberal

And let’s not mention the Mountain Meadows massacre, or the Utah War. Bluntly, the Mormons and the South are equivalent in my mind.

You seem to spend an awful lot of time and effort ranking your most-disliked groups.

84 Four More Tears  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:50:17pm

Ummm… I won’t pretend to have all that much love for Mormon history, but why is it relevant now again?

85 Obdicut  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:50:53pm

re: #81 ProGunLiberal

And Mormonism is different, because they have actively tried to change their texts. With Christianity, alot of mistranslation occurred, but that’s it.

This is absolutely untrue. Purposeful changes occurred, not just in secret but in actual, open councils. Check out the Council of Nicea. You have no clue what you’re talking about.

And let’s not mention the Mountain Meadows massacre, or the Utah War. Bluntly, the Mormons and the South are equivalent in my mind.

Great, more group blame bullshit based on events that happened long ago. That’ll help.

86 ProBosniaLiberal  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:50:56pm

re: #82 sagehen

I have been meaning to find the words to the concept you just described. Thank you.

87 Lidane  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:51:19pm

Song of the day: “Bodhisattva Vow” by the Beastie Boys:

[Link: www.viduse.com…]

One of my favorite songs ever. RIP Adam Yauch.

88 sagehen  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:51:25pm

re: #84 Assemble!

Ummm… I won’t pretend to have all that much love for Mormon history, but why is it relevant now again?

Because when you hate a candidate, he becomes responsible for the thoughts and deeds of his great-great-grandfather.

89 Four More Tears  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:52:51pm

re: #88 sagehen

Snark detection positive. Upding applied.

90 Obdicut  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:54:25pm

re: #82 sagehen

Not a yeshivah boy, huh?

When Judaism changes its understanding of an issue, it’s because rabbis have debated and discussed and published philosophical arguments and eventually persuaded enough people for it to become the new standard.

We don’t have sudden “revelations” that the hoohah at the top of the hierarchy supposedly heard directly from The God Who Changed His Mind.

I’m an atheist. And Judaism isn’t just one religion, there’s a lot of different sects of Judaism, all with their own beliefs. Certainly some of them are based on relevatory evidence, even if it’s in the past. I don’t really see any reason to see the claims of Jewish creationists as somehow arrived at by some better process. .

Mormonism is a young religion, and so the obviousness of its artificiality is highly present. That doesn’t mean that Christianity, Judaism, etc. didn’t have many of the same issues, as studies into the authorship of the bible shows.

91 ProBosniaLiberal  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:56:08pm

re: #83 erik_t

No, they just committed the same crime. Turning traitor to the United States, and roughly at the same time too. There are similarities enough between the two situations to warrant a comparison and link in my mind.

re: #85 Obdicut

And that Council caused the first Schism in Christianity. The Copts formed at this time. But has the core doctrines of Christianity changed since then? No. On the other hand, Mormonism seems to build a new facade for itself every few decades.

Granted, they really only became a target because of Prop 8. And unlike the Mormon Church, their history reveals no large positives to them.

92 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:58:36pm

re: #91 ProGunLiberal

And that Council caused the first Schism in Christianity. The Copts formed at this time. But has the core doctrines of Christianity changed since then? No.

And there have been plenty of schisms since, often resulting in a new branches. Ever hear of Martin Luther?

93 Kragar  Sat, May 5, 2012 12:59:21pm

re: #92 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter

And there have been plenty of schisms since, often resulting in a new branches. Ever hear of Martin Luther?

Splitters.
/

94 freetoken  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:00:44pm

re: #85 Obdicut

The Council of Nicea is important in Christian history, but I wouldn’t say they changed the texts of the documents of the predecessors. Rather, the result of these types of Councils led to what could be taught or preached, and thus legitimized the state’s use of power in religious affairs.

However, earlier in time there is plenty of textual evidence that intentional changes were made. And even more obviously, certain religious books considered authoritative to certain near-eastern Christian sects clearly are versions of earlier texts edited to fit the thinking of the group. (Not that this didn’t happen with other Christian or religious groups.)

95 Obdicut  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:01:30pm

re: #91 ProGunLiberal

And that Council caused the first Schism in Christianity.

No, it wasn’t the first schism in Christianity. WHy do you keep just saying stuff?

The Copts formed at this time.

No, they formed at the Council of Chalcedon, yet another time that Christianity revised it’s doctrine.

Please stop just saying things without really know what you’re talking about.

But has the core doctrines of Christianity changed since then? No. On the other hand, Mormonism seems to build a new facade for itself every few decades.

Depends on how you define ‘core doctrine’, but yes, it has, vastly changed many times since then. From changing from a doctrine of war, and a doctrine of secular power as well as religious power, to the more recent Vatican II, the Catholic church has changed core doctrines vastly.

Can you even explain what the core doctrines of Mormonism are without referencing Wikipedia?

96 erik_t  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:01:43pm

re: #91 ProGunLiberal

No, they just committed the same crime. Turning traitor to the United States, and roughly at the same time too. There are similarities enough between the two situations to warrant a comparison and link in my mind.

Very nearly nobody alive in the South or in Utah has ‘turned traitor’ to the United States. I don’t know why we have to keep pointing this out.

97 ProBosniaLiberal  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:01:59pm

re: #92 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter

Yep, know of him. The Coptic Schism was the first.

Of course, I am familiar with the Protestant Schisms, considering the role of the Ottomans in protecting the fledging Protestants.

re: #91 ProGunLiberal

The last sentence should be “unlike the Catholic Church.”

98 Lidane  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:03:38pm

re: #78 Obdicut

How the fuck is that different than any other religion?

Yeah, this. EVERY religion has gone through schisms and changes over the centuries. It’s one of the reasons why I find religious literalism and fundamentalism laughable. Which version of your sacred text are you going to call infallible, and how do you REALLY know it’s without error, especially considering all the political maneuvering that no doubt went into it?

It’s also why I’m an atheist. Instead of fighting over which mythical sky father and which set of fairy tales is the most reliable, I’d rather just live my life and try to be a good person.

99 Kragar  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:04:53pm

re: #98 Lidane

It’s also why I’m an atheist. Instead of fighting over which mythical sky father and which set of fairy tales is the most reliable, I’d rather just live my life and try to be a good person.

Its thinking like that which makes you a bad person.

Love, The Evangelicals

100 abolitionist  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:05:57pm

Uh oh. Speaker at the Siegel Center in Richmond VA just asked the entire audience to take out their cell phones, right then, and call someone they know, to spread the message of support for Obama.

101 Obdicut  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:06:00pm

re: #94 freetoken

The Council of Nicea is important in Christian history, but I wouldn’t say they changed the texts of the documents of the predecessors.

They threw out a lot of old church law and standardized new doctrine. It’s true that most of the canon changes were complete by then, and the council isn’t a good example of the Bible itself being modified, but in so far as Catholic church law is interpretation of the bible, it definitely was highly modified and changed.

Anyway, there was an editing process for the Bible, and for all other religious texts. There’s no uniqueness in the Mormon church in changing their positions on things.

Mormonism is not inherently scarier than other religions, nor is Islam. The same arguments get pulled out to smear ‘em both.

102 Lidane  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:07:07pm

re: #100 abolitionist

Uh oh. Speaker at the Sielgel Center in Richmond VA just asked the entire audience to take out their cell phones, right then, and call someone they know, to spread the message of support for Obama.

Cue the wingnut ‘splodey heads in 3…2…1…

103 McSpiff  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:07:27pm

re: #91 ProGunLiberal

No, they just committed the same crime. Turning traitor to the United States, and roughly at the same time too. There are similarities enough between the two situations to warrant a comparison and link in my mind.

Christian theology hasn’t changed since the Council of Nicea? Get your head out of your ass, read a damn book and stop trying to base your blind hatred for various groups on a half assed understanding of history.

104 freetoken  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:07:39pm

re: #91 ProGunLiberal

And that Council caused the first Schism in Christianity. The Copts formed at this time. But has the core doctrines of Christianity changed since then? No. …

As Obdicut indicated, it all depends upon how you define “core”.

There has been significant developments in the practice of the Christian religion around the world since the time of Nicea. In practical matters too the “doctrine” has changed - in practice the reality of what religions profess on paper and what people actually believe is shown to be significant itself.

105 Obdicut  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:10:41pm

re: #104 freetoken

The Evangelical religions have been mutating quickly, too. All this anti-gay stuff is quite new— not that they weren’t anti-gay in the olden days but it wasn’t a big deal, since gay people kept their heads down. The anti-abortion thing is basically late 18th century as well. In addition, lots of American Christian sects used Christianity to sanction slavery— and that bit of doctrine has changed, too. Obviously, the ‘liberal’ Christian sects have changed greatly in their attitudes towards women, since we have women in the clergy now in some of them. Etc. etc.

106 abolitionist  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:11:07pm

re: #102 Lidane
I wasn’t so concerned with the wingnuts as I was with the technical and safety issues.

107 freetoken  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:12:39pm

re: #101 Obdicut

There’s no uniqueness in the Mormon church in changing their positions on things.

Mormonism is not inherently scarier than other religions, nor is Islam. The same arguments get pulled out to smear ‘em both.

Oh, I agree. Mormonism is quite like other religions.

On the latter point, last night SFZ and I discussed briefly our differences on Mormonism. I do consider is unhealthily overly-cultic, and there are plenty of ex-Mormons who struggle with dealing with the institution and what I consider mob-like pressure. This has been brought forward as an issue many times.

Just because the Mormons in their early years were the subject of (often very ugly) discrimination doesn’t mean I’m going to give them a pass today on their own abuses.

108 Lidane  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:14:57pm

re: #106 abolitionist

Well, sure. But you know that there will be RWNJ freakouts over that, even beyond any technical or safety issues.

109 Obdicut  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:16:43pm

re: #107 freetoken

I consider it perfectly fine to criticize Romney for his actions as a Mormon Bishop in enacting that pressure, but not in simply being a Mormon bishop in the first place.

110 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:21:05pm

re: #14 CarleeCork

He’s been kinda busy, pulling the economy out of the hole, and getting rid of bin laden.

Also, ordering endless copies of his birth certificate.

111 freetoken  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:21:24pm
112 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:21:38pm

re: #16 MikeySDCA

He reads well from a teleprompter and he has good writers. BFD.

If that’s all there it to it, why can’t they all do it?

Being able to speak well is a gift.

113 freetoken  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:22:59pm

Oh my…

Olmert: ‘Right-Wing Americans’ to Blame for Peace Failure

Former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has accused right-wing Americans of being responsible for the lack of peace between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Wealthy Americans ousted him from power and derailed negotiations, he told CNN.

Olmert said he was committed to reaching peace, “But I had to fight against superior powers, including millions and millions of dollars that were transferred from this country [the United States] by figures which were from the extreme right wing that were aimed to topple me as prime minister of Israel.”

Olmert left office amidst accusations of corruption involving several different affairs. His bureau chief has since been convicted in one case.

He declined to name specific individuals who gave money to get him out of office, but said, “I know the names.”

He argued that most Israelis would have supported his planned deal with the PA.

[…]

114 Obdicut  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:24:15pm

Though I do think it’s appropriate to ask Romney, “Given that you were previously a religious leader— a Mormon bishop— how can we trust that you’re ready to lead the nation in a purely secular fashion, not privledging the religious over the non-religious, or favoring those who are closer to you in religion?” I think his honest answer would be that he doesn’t actually want to lead in a secular fashion and that he wants to break down the barrier between church and state more.

To quote him:

But in recent years, the notion of the separation of church and state has been taken by some well beyond its original meaning. They seek to remove from the public domain any acknowledgment of God. Religion is seen as merely a private affair with no place in public life. It is as if they are intent on establishing a new religion in America – the religion of secularism. They are wrong.

“The founders proscribed the establishment of a state religion, but they did not countenance the elimination of religion from the public square. We are a nation ‘Under God’ and in God, we do indeed trust.

“We should acknowledge the Creator as did the Founders – in ceremony and word. He should remain on our currency, in our pledge, in the teaching of our history, and during the holiday season, nativity scenes and menorahs should be welcome in our public places. Our greatness would not long endure without judges who respect the foundation of faith upon which our constitution rests. I will take care to separate the affairs of government from any religion, but I will not separate us from ‘the God who gave us liberty.’

Americans acknowledge that liberty is a gift of God, not an indulgence of government.

It’s really stupid to say that you’re going to separate the affairs of government from any religion, while endorsing having god present in the government in many ways. It’s also dishonest.

Romney doesn’t, apparently, consider atheists to be real Americans, either.

115 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:24:43pm

re: #48 funky chicken

LOLZ

I try to dress fairly tsniusdik. However, a line like that would seriously inspire me to buy some low-cut blouses a size too small for court wear.

116 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:29:13pm

re: #79 freetoken

Utah became a state in 1896… and thus the outlawing of polygamy was, how can we say, convenient.

Abandoning polygamy was absolutely necessary for the church to survive. Hence, it happened. Not without some real trauma to families caught in the middle.

117 [deleted]  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:31:56pm
118 Bubblehead II  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:34:10pm

Anybody know what time Obama is scheduled to speak in Virginia?.

119 freetoken  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:38:23pm

Birther explains that the leftists seek to destroy freedom of speech by… denying birthers something or other:

MY VIEW: LEFTISTS SEEK TO DESTROY FREEDOM OF SPEECH

[…]

Just as frightening as the left-wing’s contempt for the Constitution is the writer’s contempt for the legions of Americans who are simply asking the president to stop playing “wink wink” games and supply proof of his legitimacy. “The flat-earth lie,” explains Gerardus D. Bouw in the informative article —’Does The Bible Teach A Flat Earth’?”— has always been ammunition against those who believe in creationism and intelligent design. “The argument [is] simple and powerful, if not elegant: Look how stupid these [Conservatives] are. They are always getting in the way of science and progress. These people who deny [Marxist materialism] are exactly the same sort of people as those idiots who for at least a thousand years denied that the earth was round.” (But that’s not the truth. There is ample evidence that the Bible teaches a round earth instead of a flat earth. Check Isaiah 40:22)

[…]


What can we learn from this “teachable moment?” That liberals want to destroy free speech rather than engage in reasoned discussion; that the left-wingers will demonize “birthers” as irrelevant knuckle-dragging, Bible-thumping, gun-toting, Bambi-shooting, Limbaugh-listening, flat-earth cretins “clinging to their guns and religion.” And if the president has another four years the Constitution, free speech, and the opinion page of the Daily News-Sun will go the way of the dinosaur.

[…]

Bible-thumping birther decries being “demonized” as a Bible-thumping.

Self parodies are a wonderful thing.

120 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:39:37pm

O.T. Possum Update

The little critter is apparently doing pretty good, it ate half a can of “Fancy Feast” catfood, and drank a lot of water overnight. When I put it in the tub this afternoon while I washed out the cat carrier, changed it’s bedding, and restocked the food and water it was acting much less lethargic (Yes, It still falls over on it’s side and tries to play dead when you reach for it, that is not what I’m talking about by saying it was lethargic before).

I just checked up on it again and it has polished off half the food already although it doesn’t look like it has touched the water yet at all. I’m thinking that I might let it go tonight after the sun is down if it continues to show improvement. I’m thinking that hopefully it was just dehydrated and hungry and now that I have given it a boost it is time to let it go back to nature.

Bonus…

O’Possum in my Sink!

121 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:39:47pm

re: #81 ProGunLiberal

Exactly!

And Mormonism is different, because they have actively tried to change their texts. With Christianity, alot of mistranslation occurred, but that’s it.

And let’s not mention the Mountain Meadows massacre, or the Utah War. Bluntly, the Mormons and the South are equivalent in my mind.

I don’t even know WHAT to do with this.

I assume by ‘the South’, you mean ‘the Confederacy’.

Less than 200 people died during the Utah War.

How low can we go? Is California on the shitlist next because of the Bear Flag Revolt? What number of deaths marks a group forever?

The nineteenth century in the West was a vicious, nasty period. According to the higher counts, more people died at Wounded Knee than in the Mountain Meadow Massacre and the Utah War combined. The U.S. Calvary did that one.

122 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:40:17pm

re: #84 Assemble!

Ummm… I won’t pretend to have all that much love for Mormon history, but why is it relevant now again?

Mitt.

123 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:41:18pm

re: #92 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter

And there have been plenty of schisms since, often resulting in a new branches. Ever hear of Martin Luther?

Christianity is nothing but a big bundle of schism half the damn time, and doctrine is INCREDIBLY diverse.

124 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:44:36pm

re: #107 freetoken

Oh, I agree. Mormonism is quite like other religions.

On the latter point, last night SFZ and I discussed briefly our differences on Mormonism. I do consider is unhealthily overly-cultic, and there are plenty of ex-Mormons who struggle with dealing with the institution and what I consider mob-like pressure. This has been brought forward as an issue many times.

Just because the Mormons in their early years were the subject of (often very ugly) discrimination doesn’t mean I’m going to give them a pass today on their own abuses.

That’s not what you were talking about last night. You were suggesting that Tagg Romney’s having two children through a surrogate related to polygamy, and a desire for world domination.

My God, how politically correct must I be to think that sounds bigoted as hell?

125 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:45:55pm

re: #114 Obdicut

Though I do think it’s appropriate to ask Romney, “Given that you were previously a religious leader— a Mormon bishop— how can we trust that you’re ready to lead the nation in a purely secular fashion, not privledging the religious over the non-religious, or favoring those who are closer to you in religion?” I think his honest answer would be that he doesn’t actually want to lead in a secular fashion and that he wants to break down the barrier between church and state more.

To quote him:

It’s really stupid to say that you’re going to separate the affairs of government from any religion, while endorsing having god present in the government in many ways. It’s also dishonest.

Romney doesn’t, apparently, consider atheists to be real Americans, either.

I’d say he wants to break down the barrier between church and state LESS than any of the Protestant GOP candidates, though, so Mormonism’s got jack to do with it.

126 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:46:18pm

re: #117 MikeySDCA

Yes, but I found the tone of the discussion up to that point a little cloyingly reverential, as in 08 when the MSM spent much time praising his “eloquence.”

He’s a hell of a speaker.

127 freetoken  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:48:14pm

re: #124 SanFranciscoZionist

I brought up several issues last night. What set me off was the inconsistencies in how Romney is courting the SoCon vote while simultaneously celebrating something which many religious conservatives find abhorrent (IVF).

From there I jumped (perhaps incoherently) into the bigger picture of Mormonism and some of its practices in groups where there are controls by the leaders.

128 Dark_Falcon  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:52:41pm

re: #19 Charleston Chew

You forgot to mention Ayers. AYERS!

Oh, and ACORN!

You miss the last few months or something? Mikey doesn’t go in for the sort of stupid stuff. Saying the way Obama comes across owes more to writers than to native (to him) talent is not a crazy position to take, and should not be labeled as such. It’s entirely legitimate to think that position wrong, but it is not crazy.

129 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:53:38pm

My aunt’s parrot is a more genuine and passionate speaker than Mitt Romney.

Romney has completely debased himself pandering to the nutbar right. This is a recipe for defeat because it bases a strategy on appealing to a faction whose leadership is not really interested in winning or, appearances aside, even in gaining power. They are interested in marketing all kinds of products, from conspiracy videos and home-schooling supplies to health supplements. A losing political front might even be an advantage for this objective. This would make it doubly tragic; indeed, catastrophic; if they actually did gain power. It’s not impossible, given the shortsightedness and low integrity of politicians like Romney.

130 Kragar  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:53:42pm

Arizona Bans State Funding to Planned Parenthood

Arizona governor Jan Brewer signed a Republican-backed measure on Friday called the Whole Woman’s Health Funding Priority Act, which prevents Planned Parenthood or any entity offering abortions from receiving state funding. “This is a common-sense law that tightens existing state regulations and closes loopholes in order to ensure that taxpayer dollars are not used to fund abortions, whether directly or indirectly,” Brewer said in a statement. “By signing this measure into law, I stand with the majority of Americans who oppose the use of taxpayer funds for abortion.”

Per the Priority Act, it doesn’t matter what other services a clinic provides. So long as abortion is one of them, the state and every local government is banned from using public money to contract with the organization.

Fuck Arizona.

131 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:54:31pm

re: #120 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

O.T. Possum Update

The little critter is apparently doing pretty good, it ate half a can of “Fancy Feast” catfood, and drank a lot of water overnight. When I put it in the tub this afternoon while I washed out the cat carrier, changed it’s bedding, and restocked the food and water it was acting much less lethargic (Yes, It still falls over on it’s side and tries to play dead when you reach for it, that is not what I’m talking about by saying it was lethargic before).

I just checked up on it again and it has polished off half the food already although it doesn’t look like it has touched the water yet at all. I’m thinking that I might let it go tonight after the sun is down if it continues to show improvement. I’m thinking that hopefully it was just dehydrated and hungry and now that I have given it a boost it is time to let it go back to nature.

Bonus…

O’Possum in my Sink!

It’s absolutely cute. Do you know if it is a boy or a girl?

132 Dark_Falcon  Sat, May 5, 2012 1:55:30pm

re: #124 SanFranciscoZionist

That’s not what you were talking about last night. You were suggesting that Tagg Romney’s having two children through a surrogate related to polygamy, and a desire for world domination.

My God, how politically correct must I be to think that sounds bigoted as hell?

You’re just fine. One of my uncles is Mormon, as it happens, and so are some of his children (not all of them though, for he let them choose their own religious paths), so shots at Mormons hit close to home for me.

133 Dark_Falcon  Sat, May 5, 2012 2:09:39pm

re: #129 Shiplord Kirel

I think many social conservative do want to gain political power, but some of them don’t. Those that don’t are what I call the “Professional Opposition” and they ultimately don’t wish to be in power for 1 or both of 2 reasons:

1. They are utterly unwilling to make the sorts of compromises a party in power must make in a diverse nation. Every party has such people in it, and the challenge for the leadership of the party is whip up such people to get them to the polls but then only let them have any real power if they break their prior intransigence. Sometimes people of this type actually hold office (see Paul, Ron (R, TX) or Waters, Maxine (D, CA), but they are never part of the leadership because they would fundamentally rather fail to accomplish anything if the price of accomplishment is compromise.

2. They have some self-aggrandizing objective rather than holding a office and passing laws. A couple good examples of this type are Bryan Fischer and Glenn Beck. Neither one really wants to be one the side in power because it would lessen their influence. If the GOP controlled both houses of Congress and the White House, not only would the sheer number other political figures reduce Fischer’s influence, but he’d also find himself dealing with cases where to get what wanted and needed to deliver (for now his followers would expect him to deliver on past promises) he’d have to lend his support to policies of people outside his sphere of influence, a difficult and never fun task. The task of building political support for the governing coalition is vital, but those doing it have to be able to take direction and cannot speak as wildly or as freely as they did when in opposition.

134 abolitionist  Sat, May 5, 2012 2:18:34pm

re: #118 Bubblehead II

Anybody know what time Obama is scheduled to speak in Virginia?.

Now.

135 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, May 5, 2012 2:21:42pm

re: #131 SanFranciscoZionist

It’s absolutely cute. Do you know if it is a boy or a girl?

No, and I’m not about to try to find out, you wouldn’t think it was quite so cute if you saw the many needle teeth in that long jaw when it hisses at you. I wear gloves for safety and have only handled it as little as is absolutely necessary, flipping it over and trying to peer between it’s rear legs is not on the agenda, lol. :D

136 Irving  Sat, May 5, 2012 2:35:52pm

Speaking well in public is in fact one of the primary job skills for a president. Ever hear about the “bully pulpit?” It’s hard to envision any aspect of the presidency that does not depend, in some fashion or another, on effective public communication skills.

137 Sionainn  Sat, May 5, 2012 2:49:30pm

re: #16 MikeySDCA

He reads well from a teleprompter and he has good writers. BFD.

Who pissed in your Wheaties?

138 Jimmah  Sat, May 5, 2012 4:02:43pm

re: #16 MikeySDCA

He reads well from a teleprompter and he has good writers. BFD.

Thread winner! (of the Sarah Palin Stuck On Stupid award).

139 Romantic Heretic  Sat, May 5, 2012 4:58:47pm

re: #61 MikeySDCA

The latter, but I do read history.

Judging from your original comment you’re confusing mythology and history.

140 Tigger2005  Sat, May 5, 2012 5:38:17pm

re: #81 ProGunLiberal

Exactly!

And Mormonism is different, because they have actively tried to change their texts. With Christianity, alot of mistranslation occurred, but that’s it.

And let’s not mention the Mountain Meadows massacre, or the Utah War. Bluntly, the Mormons and the South are equivalent in my mind.

Hah. Hah. Hah.

You really think Christians haven’t changed their texts?

They’ve been edited and re-edited out the wazoo.

It just happened a real long time ago. That’s the only difference.


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