Fake Outrage of the Day: Obama Campaign ‘Tried to Bribe Rev. Wright’

A case study in dishonest right wing groupthink
• Views: 40,191

I guess it’s going to be like this until November — every day a new bogus outrage for the right wing blogs to hysterically scream about.

Here’s today’s blatantly dishonest post at breitbart.com by one of their hackiest writers, Ben Shapiro: WRIGHT: OBAMA TRIED TO BRIBE ME TO KEEP QUIET IN 2008.

No, Ben, that is not what Rev. Wright said to the New York Post. The Post, of course, also misrepresents their own story, but notice that their headline isn’t quite as egregious as Shapiro’s overheated version: Obama Team Tried to ‘Bribe’ Jeremiah Wright to Keep Quiet: Book - NYPOST.com.

The facts as reported in this article: Rev. Wright claims that an email was sent to a member of his church, offering him $150,000 to “not preach at all until the November election.”

Wright does not say the email was sent by Obama or the “Obama team,” he says it came from “one of Barack’s closest friends.” Even if (and that’s a big “if”) Wright’s story is true, there’s no evidence at all that this offer came from the Obama campaign.

‘Man, the media ate me alive,” Wright told me when we met in his office at Chicago’s Kwame Nkrumah Academy. “After the media went ballistic on me, I received an e-mail offering me money not to preach at all until the November presidential election.”

“Who sent the e-mail?” I asked Wright.

“It was from one of Barack’s closest friends.”

“He offered you money?”

“Not directly,” Wright said. “He sent the offer to one of the members of the church, who sent it to me.”

“How much money did he offer you?”

“One hundred and fifty thousand dollars,” Wright said.

The Post’s headline is bad enough, because the article contradicts its claim that the “Obama team” offered money to Wright. But Ben Shapiro’s breitbart.com headline takes it a step further and says Obama himself tried to “bribe” Wright.

Again we see the right wing blogs in a frenzied uproar over a bogus report that they’re hyping and distorting even beyond the New York Post’s already distorted version.

And of course, if Rev. Wright had said something positive about President Obama, they’d all be calling him a liar.

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200 comments
1 krypto  Sun, May 13, 2012 12:45:20pm

All ironic of course, because those who are screaming the most would ordinarily be the first to claim that nothing Wright says can be believed.

2 dragonath  Sun, May 13, 2012 12:47:48pm

Reverend Wright is electoral gold, I tells ya! That's why... McCain won... and...

oh dang

3 Henchman 26  Sun, May 13, 2012 12:49:47pm

Wouldn't this be part of the free market ideology?

4 Tumulus11  Sun, May 13, 2012 12:55:51pm
'Barack said he wanted to meet me in secret, in a secure place.'

[...]

'I don’t know if he had a wire on him.'

. I don't believe.

5 Henchman 26  Sun, May 13, 2012 12:56:15pm

The right is playing games with definitions again, big surprise. They're using a colloquial definition of bribe and implying a legal interpretation. This fits in with their penchant to ignore context.

"Bribery, is an act of implying money or gift giving that alters the behavior of the recipient. Bribery constitutes a crime and is defined by Black's Law Dictionary as the offering, giving, receiving, or soliciting of any item of value to influence the actions of an official or other person in charge of a public or legal duty."
[Emphasis mine. From Wikipedia]

6 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 13, 2012 12:59:24pm

All irrelevant: it fits the naarative that Obama is corrupt and will say or do anything to get (re)elected.

In fact, he probably secretly opposes gay marriage, he was just saying that to gain support from Hollywood.

7 Henchman 26  Sun, May 13, 2012 1:02:31pm

Let's be serious about the New York Post.

It's owned by Rupert Murdoch.

Do we really expect accuracy and honesty?

8 Targetpractice  Sun, May 13, 2012 1:05:46pm

re: #6 Expand Your Ground

All irrelevant: it fits the naarative that Obama is corrupt and will say or do anything to get (re)elected.

In fact, he probably secretly opposes gay marriage, he was just saying that to gain support from Hollywood.

There's only one guy who's run this year that they think absolutely honest and honorable...and that's Crazy Uncle Ron.

9 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 1:09:15pm

There's more!

Dumb shits.

10 Randall Gross  Sun, May 13, 2012 1:14:23pm

It's old, not news.

11 Henchman 26  Sun, May 13, 2012 1:23:25pm

This gets even better, the original is from Edward Klein who is known far and wide, except in far right circles, as a hack with no credibility. This looks to be a trifecta of incredibility.

12 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 1:23:55pm

re: #11 Cathartic Expression

This gets even better, the original is from Edward Klein who is known far and wide, except in far right circles, as a hack with no credibility. This looks to be a trifecta of incredibility.

SNAFU

13 dragonfire1981  Sun, May 13, 2012 1:24:19pm

Attention unlike some people/000G:

I am unable to email you because I do not have a compatible email address for the safe mail client. It does not accept web based email and that is all I have.

If you want you can tweet me at: stevethewriter2

14 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, May 13, 2012 1:28:50pm

re: #13 dragonfire1981

Attention unlike some people/000G:

I am unable to email you because I do not have a compatible email address for the safe mail client. It does not accept web based email and that is all I have.

If you want you can tweet me at: stevethewriter2

Who's your ISP? I know with Comcast here in the States, you can create at least 5-6 email accounts under your main account; if you can, create a throwaway account through your ISP.

15 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, May 13, 2012 1:29:02pm

re: #13 dragonfire1981

Errr. Then maybe let me e-mail you instead (fill out the email field above the post form and click the "Show email" box next to it)?

16 dragonfire1981  Sun, May 13, 2012 1:29:14pm
17 dragonfire1981  Sun, May 13, 2012 1:30:04pm

re: #15 Unlike Some People

Errr. Then maybe let me e-mail you instead (fill out the email field above the post form and click the "Show email" box next to it)?

Done.

18 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, May 13, 2012 1:32:19pm

re: #17 dragonfire1981

Thanks. Will do it later, am kinda busy right now.

19 Velvet Elvis  Sun, May 13, 2012 1:35:48pm

If I'd been on the Obama campaign Wright would have spent the entire fall of 2008 locked in a cellar.

20 dragonfire1981  Sun, May 13, 2012 1:37:30pm

re: #18 Unlike Some People

Thanks. Will do it later, am kinda busy right now.

Ok, will keep my eye out for it.

21 sagehen  Sun, May 13, 2012 1:38:49pm

re: #16 dragonfire1981

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot:

Mexican Authorities investigating sixth graders who made porn film at school

Um... does anyone know if 6th grade in Mexico is the same age as 6th grade in the U.S.?

22 freetoken  Sun, May 13, 2012 1:38:53pm

I expect every outrage that has surfaced the past 4 years to make at least a cameo appearance between now and the election.

23 Henchman 26  Sun, May 13, 2012 1:39:06pm

re: #13 dragonfire1981

Attention unlike some people/000G:

I am unable to email you because I do not have a compatible email address for the safe mail client. It does not accept web based email and that is all I have.

If you want you can tweet me at: stevethewriter2

You want an email address? I can give you one.

24 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 1:41:31pm

re: #20 dragonfire1981

Ok, will keep my eye out for it.

Sent you a DM.

25 elizajane  Sun, May 13, 2012 1:46:00pm

re: #11 Cathartic Expression

This gets even better, the original is from Edward Klein who is known far and wide, except in far right circles, as a hack with no credibility. This looks to be a trifecta of incredibility.

It matters not. From now until November this story will be referenced constantly by bloggers and especially by their commenters when they need a "Democrats and especially black ones are corrupt too" example. It is impossible to discredit a story enough to kill it in the Right Wing thought zone. There are still people out there yapping about what a racist Shirley Sherrod was. And have you heard the one about the birth certificate?

26 Kragar  Sun, May 13, 2012 1:50:37pm

Next, they're going to tell us the email came from a Nigerian Prince.

27 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, May 13, 2012 1:54:11pm

I'm really excited to be going to the Lake house this week..Got my list of to do things before We depart.. But how can you get most stuff till you get there? Food stuffs, Beer, Gas for the boat..Who the heck knows?
Should be fun..
Then on to Indiana for 4 days for the Indy 500...

28 efuseakay  Sun, May 13, 2012 1:56:28pm
29 Kragar  Sun, May 13, 2012 1:57:22pm

re: #28 efuseakay

If only her father was an ex judge...

Florida woman sentenced to 20 years in controversial warning shot case

Or she was white

30 smashin grab  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:00:54pm

typical newscorpse tactic. one of ruperts papers somewhere fabricates a story, then fox cable or drudge/notsobrightbrats will quote it as a actual news piece, when its really a pile of excrement.... thats the rove/ lee atwater playbook...

31 Henchman 26  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:02:39pm

Has anyone checked into Brietbart.com's funding? Is there a Murdoch link there at all?

32 freetoken  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:02:51pm

re: #11 Cathartic Expression

This won't be the last we've heard of Edward Klein, as with this story he has lionized himself with the wingnuts.

33 freetoken  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:03:46pm
34 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:04:07pm

re: #2 Be Zorch, Daddio

Reverend Wright is electoral gold, I tells ya! That's why... McCain won... and...

oh dang

McCain didn't allow his campaign to go hard after Wright. Game Change makes that pretty clear.

35 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:06:40pm

re: #29 Kragar

Or she was white

For the third time (the first time was on CNN's comment thread on the case), it was not because she was black. It was because she went back in the house after having left it If you reenter the zone of danger after having left it, the law generally prohibits claiming self-defense if something violent occurs.

36 Henchman 26  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:08:46pm

BBL

37 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:14:58pm

If Republicans want to pass a constitutional amendment to define marriage as only between a man and woman thus banning gay marriage I want them, as an atheist, to ban atheists from marrying. I would ask others opposed to this bigoted amendment to join me regardless of belief. If they want to ban gay marriage then I want to join my gay brother and sisters.

38 simoom  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:16:19pm

re: #11 Cathartic Expression

This gets even better, the original is from Edward Klein who is known far and wide, except in far right circles, as a hack with no credibility.

So this interview actually is an excerpt from his new anti-Obama book? If so, ignoring the fact the Wright has a self-aggrandizing habit of making an ass of himself, I'd question if we're even seeing an accurate rendition of the interview as Klein has a reputation for deliberately omitting critical parts of quotes from his previous hit-books, or paraphrasing conversations in ridiculous ways.

39 austin_blue  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:18:16pm

re: #37 Gus

If Republicans want to pass a constitutional amendment to define marriage as only between a man and woman thus banning gay marriage I want them, as an atheist, to ban atheists from marrying. I would ask others opposed to this bigoted amendment to join me regardless of belief. If they want to ban gay marriage then I want to join my gay brother and sisters.

What are we poor agnostics to do?!?!?

40 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:18:47pm

re: #39 austin_blue

What are we poor agnostics to do?!?!?

I don't know. Say something like "I really can't decide?"

//

41 dragonath  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:19:09pm

re: #34 Dark_Falcon

I don't understand what you're getting at. Do you think McCain should have pressed the issue further? Obama killed it with the "More Perfect Union" speech in Philadelphia.

42 simoom  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:19:12pm

re: #38 simoom

Heh, from some of the other NYP excerpts from Klein's book The Amateur:

As far as Michelle was concerned, Oprah’s billions and her elite lifestyle disqualified her as an adviser to Barack, who had no truck with wealthy people, except as a source of campaign contributions, and was a redistributionist at heart.

WTF is a redistributionist? :P

43 jaunte  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:19:35pm

So after Rev. Wright has been vilified for years as a terrible anti-American, now he's rehabilitated as a credible witness?

44 Targetpractice  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:19:39pm

re: #35 Dark_Falcon

For the third time (the first time was on CNN's comment thread on the case), it was not because she was black. It was because she went back in the house after having left it If you reenter the zone of danger after having left it, the law generally prohibits claiming self-defense if something violent occurs.

How did she leave the house? Is the garage now part of a house for the purposes of whether a purpose is still considered "inside"?

45 Kragar  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:19:42pm

re: #39 austin_blue

What are we poor agnostics to do?!?!?

Perhaps we can fall back on the old standbys of mockery, sarcasm and derision?

46 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:24:56pm

re: #41 Be Zorch, Daddio

I don't understand what you're getting at. Do you think McCain should have pressed the issue further? Obama killed it with the "More Perfect Union" speech in Philadelphia.

You mentioned McCain, and he didn't use it as an issue.

47 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:28:29pm

re: #44 Targetpractice

How did she leave the house? Is the garage now part of a house for the purposes of whether a purpose is still considered "inside"?

Even assuming it was an attached garage, the logic the judge accepted was that she could blocked the door between the garage and the rest of the house and then called the police on her cell phone.

I read of a man who fled a bar fight by going into the establishment's kitchen. But he then reentered the bar (it was not made clear if the kitchen had an exterior door) and after being attacked shot one of his attacks. The judge hearing the case disallowed a claim of self defense, ruling that he should have stayed in the kitchen and waited for the police to arrive.

48 Targetpractice  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:30:36pm

re: #47 Dark_Falcon

Even assuming it was an attached garage, the logic the judge accepted was that she could blocked the door between the garage and the rest of the house and then called the police on her cell phone.

I read of a man who fled a bar fight by going into the establishment's kitchen. But he then reentered the bar (it was not made clear if the kitchen had an exterior door) and after being attacked shot one of his attacks. The judge hearing the case disallowed a claim of self defense, ruling that he should have stayed in the kitchen and waited for the police to arrive.

So the judge's logic says that "Stand Your Ground" and Castle Doctrine are pointless if the other party is alive to press charges. Cute.

49 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:30:48pm

Oh crap, Haaretz just put up a paywall.

50 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:31:01pm

So is this showing up on the cafe press add on your screen?

it is on mine.

WHOOOT!

51 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:31:35pm

re: #37 Gus

If Republicans want to pass a constitutional amendment to define marriage as only between a man and woman thus banning gay marriage I want them, as an atheist, to ban atheists from marrying. I would ask others opposed to this bigoted amendment to join me regardless of belief. If they want to ban gay marriage then I want to join my gay brother and sisters.

Obama mentioned in his autobiography that when his parents got married, Miscegnation was still illegal inseveral southern states (including North Carolina).

Time to reinstate that, too...

52 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:33:12pm

re: #48 Targetpractice

So the judge's logic says that "Stand Your Ground" and Castle Doctrine are pointless if the other party is alive to press charges. Cute.

SYG means "Shoot your Gun" (and not into the air!)

53 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:33:28pm

re: #35 Dark_Falcon

For the third time (the first time was on CNN's comment thread on the case), it was not because she was black. It was because she went back in the house after having left it If you reenter the zone of danger after having left it, the law generally prohibits claiming self-defense if something violent occurs.

DF, do you really believe she would have even been sent to prison if she was white? If so, you've lead an awfully sheltered life.

54 sagehen  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:33:40pm

re: #42 simoom

As far as Michelle was concerned, Oprah’s billions and her elite lifestyle disqualified her as an adviser to Barack...

I call bullshit.

Oprah's advice was

1) how to appeal to the people who make up Oprah's audience (women who are home in the afternoon); especially
2) on TV.

Who better to give such advice to a black guy? Should he have asked Jay-Z?

55 smashin grab  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:35:03pm

re: #31 Cathartic Expression

i strongly believe that fox/ rove/ and the koch bros pay drudge and andys pals. i know matt drudge, and could tell you storys about his, and how he got to this point, he aint a rightwing nutjob, and he is living large in florida. and is playing the rightwing for cash. but if you check the trackers on their sites, you will find fox-bots getting cookies. there is a real symbiosis between them, thats how they keep the message on one page.... and note, drudge purposely makes his site so vanilla so not to confuse the lo info readers that use his site. he keeps it looking like he still does it on ms word, but as mr johnson would know, how he is implementing the backbone of his site.... also note , drudge will link to easily log in sites, so that the kkkomments will not be edited... yahoo, is a mess, and they dont care who or what is being posted on their site....

56 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:37:34pm

Bloomberg fail of the day:

57 Targetpractice  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:38:34pm

re: #56 Gus

Bloomberg fail of the day:

[Embedded content]

Wait, does this mean that $17.1 Billion won't be creating any jobs?!?!

///

58 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:38:53pm

re: #56 Gus

Bloomberg fail of the day:

[Embedded content]

This is the equivalent of one of us losing a ten-dollar bill down a sewer grate...

59 Kragar  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:40:41pm

re: #52 Expand Your Ground

SYG means "Shoot your Gun" (and not into the air!)

Never fire warning shots, and never leave the other guy around to tell his side of the story.

60 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:41:16pm

re: #48 Targetpractice

So the judge's logic says that "Stand Your Ground" and Castle Doctrine are pointless if the other party is alive to press charges. Cute.

No, and where did you get that idea from?!

The judge's logic (in both cases) is that if you have gotten to room where you are safe from the person(s) you thought dangerous, you should stay there, if you cannot leave the building, and wait for the police. If you go back to where that person is, your are not standing your ground, you're going into a fight.

Moreover, though, was the concern over her firing a warning shot into the wall. The concern was the possibility of the children on the other side of the wall being hit by an over-penetration.

The prosecutor tried to get her to agree to a lesser punishment, but she refused a plea deal. Once she was convicted, Florida law required the 20-year sentence, the judge having no discretion.

That law was made to deter gun crime, and was widely accepted by both the left and right when passed. But it created a situation whereby Marissa Alexander would have gotten less time had she gone back in a pepper-sprayed her husband without any provocation.

61 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:42:15pm

re: #56 Gus

Bloomberg fail of the day:

[Embedded content]

Wow, I feel so much better about my life now, knowing that Richy McRich has only $300 million to coast on this year instead of $400 million.

//

62 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:43:22pm

re: #61 Unlike Some People

Wow, I feel so much better about my life now, knowing that Richy McRich has only $300 million to coast on this year instead of $400 million.

//

63 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:43:58pm

re: #53 William Barnett-Lewis

DF, do you really believe she would have even been sent to prison if she was white? If so, you've lead an awfully sheltered life.

Yes, I believe she would have gone to prison. The man in the example I mentioned was white, and he was convicted in a not-too-dissimilar circumstance.

Again, the law left the judge with no discretion as to the sentence. The law is that if you fire a gun during the commission of an aggravated assault, you get a 20 year sentence.

64 dragonath  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:44:10pm

Ya know, Florida seems like the last place in the world where people should be concerned about stray bullets...

65 PhillyPretzel  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:44:11pm

re: #62 Gus

I like your twitter response.

66 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:44:29pm

re: #65 PhillyPretzel

I like your twitter response.

Tanks. ;)

67 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:45:20pm

re: #64 Be Zorch, Daddio

That ain't funny.

68 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:46:24pm

re: #62 Gus

It's really incredible to me how people fail to realize that when poor people make losses they can very well hit 0, while when rich people make losses they usually still end up with a very nice cushion. Difference between absolute and relative matters!

69 dragonath  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:47:19pm

re: #67 Dark_Falcon

Neither is the "Stand Your Ground" law. The Governor seems intent about making the state an NRA paradise, but someone gets 20 years in self-defense due to "concern". You tell me what is wrong here.

70 Targetpractice  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:48:03pm

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

No, and where di get that idea from?!

The judge's logic (in both cases) is that if you have gotten to room where you are safe from the person(s) you thought dangerous, you should stay there, if you cannot leave the building, and wait for the police. If you go back to where that person is, your are not standing your ground, you're going into a fight.

Moreover, though, was the concern over her firing a warning shot into the wall. The concern was the possibility of the children on the other side of the wall being hit by an over-penetration.

The prosecutor tried to get her to agree to a lesser punishment, but she refused a plea deal. Once she was convicted, Florida law required the 20-year sentence, the judge having no discretion.

That law was made to deter gun crime, and was widely accepted by both the left and right when passed. But it created a situation whereby Marissa Alexander would have gotten less time had she gone back in a pepper-sprayed her husband without any provocation.

I think the bolded is the major point, that the "concern" is more that she could have hurt some third party than whether or not she could have fled. Had she shot and killed the bastard, she'd be walking free right about now.

71 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:49:19pm

re: #69 Be Zorch, Daddio

Neither is the "Stand Your Ground" law. The Governor seems intent about making the state an NRA paradise, but someone gets 20 years in self-defense due to "concern". You tell me what is wrong here.

20 years is a joke. That's more than most manslaughter or even 2nd degree murder cases. Even some 1st degree murders. 20 years for basically a warning shot and maybe an illegal discharge of weapon. I would say 3 years tops for this woman.

72 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:50:58pm

re: #70 Targetpractice

I think the bolded is the major point, that the "concern" is more that she could have hurt some third party than whether or not she could have fled. Had she shot and killed the bastard, she'd be walking free right about now.

You've a point, though it's hard to say. But she might well have been in a stronger legal position had she shot him instead. But that point isn't really unique to Florida, as the risk of a warning shot over penetration can get that shot labeled as a crime in non-SYG states as well.

73 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:52:52pm

re: #71 Gus

20 years is a joke. That's more than most manslaughter or even 2nd degree murder cases. Even some 1st degree murders. 20 years for basically a warning shot and maybe an illegal discharge of weapon. I would say 3 years tops for this woman.

The law allowed only the 20-year sentence. Again, it's a law passed with bipartisan support that was intended to deter gun crime. Both the Brady Campaign and the NRA supported it, so this is, if anything, a time when its OK to "blame the system".

74 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:54:54pm

re: #69 Be Zorch, Daddio

Neither is the "Stand Your Ground" law. The Governor seems intent about making the state an NRA paradise, but someone gets 20 years in self-defense due to "concern". You tell me what is wrong here.

SYG is only for white folks. That's what's wrong. It's designed to allow people in the south to legally kill minorities by pretending they're a threat.

75 Targetpractice  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:55:07pm

re: #72 Dark_Falcon

You've a point, though it's hard to say. But she might well have been in a stronger legal position had she shot him instead. But that point isn't really unique to Florida, as the risk of a warning shot over penetration can get that shot labeled as a crime in non-SYG states as well.

Florida's a state where a man chased a thief down a street, in broad daylight, then stabbed him to death because (he claims) the thief took a swing at him with a bag full of stolen radios. He then walked home, cleaned the knife, and went to sleep. Yet, according a judge, his actions were consistent with "self-defense" under SYG and the case against him dismissed.

I don't for a second believe this woman would be looking at 20 years if her husband was dead.

76 dragonath  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:55:43pm

What are people supposed to do, blow a kazoo? Considering the verdict, she probably would have gotten an assault for pepper spraying him too.

Like that's something that everybody carries. Hey, maybe we should. It's good for business.

77 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:55:46pm

re: #71 Gus

20 years is a joke. That's more than most manslaughter or even 2nd degree murder cases. Even some 1st degree murders. 20 years for basically a warning shot and maybe an illegal discharge of weapon. I would say 3 years tops for this woman.

That's because of the enhancer - it's designed so that poor folk "Gang Bangers" will never get out of prison.

78 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:55:58pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

The law allowed only the 20-year sentence. Again, it's a law passed with bipartisan support that was intended to deter gun crime. Both the Brady Campaign and the NRA supported it, so this is, if anything, a time when its OK to "blame the system".

Florida. Pfff. I think we should secede from the original Confederate states once and for all.

79 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:57:47pm

re: #76 Be Zorch, Daddio

What are people supposed to do, blow a kazoo? Considering the verdict, she probably would have gotten an assault for pepper spraying him too.

Like that's something that everybody carries. Hey, maybe we should. It's good for business.

If she'd pepper-sprayed him, she would have gotten a far lesser sentence, even if she had done so without any provocation.

Again, you don't like the law, ask the legislature to change it. Lots of states have sentence enhancements for crimes if a gun was discharged.

80 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 2:59:50pm

re: #77 William Barnett-Lewis

That's because of the enhancer - it's designed so that poor folk "Gang Bangers" will never get out of prison.

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

The law allowed only the 20-year sentence. Again, it's a law passed with bipartisan support that was intended to deter gun crime. Both the Brady Campaign and the NRA supported it, so this is, if anything, a time when its OK to "blame the system".

Bolded for emphasis. Again, this was not simply 'some wingnut law'. It was a bipartisan law intended to harshly punish those who used guns to commit crimes.

81 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:01:02pm

re: #79 Dark_Falcon

If she'd pepper-sprayed him, she would have gotten a far lesser sentence, even if she had done so without any provocation.

Again, you don't like the law, ask the legislature to change it. Lots of states have sentence enhancements for crimes if a gun was discharged.

DF, this is the deep south we're talking about. They won't change any laws that let them lock away minorities for decades for no good reason. It's white privilege all the way the way down.

82 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:01:58pm

re: #22 freetoken

I expect every outrage that has surfaced the past 4 years to make at least a cameo appearance between now and the election.

Zombie Outrages.

83 Targetpractice  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:02:06pm

re: #80 Dark_Falcon

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

Bolded for emphasis. Again, this was not simply 'some wingnut law'. It was a bipartisan law intended to harshly punish those who used guns to commit crimes.

It's the kind of "tough on crime" law that's so popular in states with large numbers of gun-related crimes, the kind politicians love because they call tell the voters that it will keep criminals off streets without acknowledging the number of folks who get sent away for 20 because they so much as brandished a gun.

84 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:02:14pm

re: #80 Dark_Falcon

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

Bolded for emphasis. Again, this was not simply 'some wingnut law'. It was a bipartisan law intended to harshly punish those who used guns to commit crimes.

DF the Bradey bunch will do anything to demonize guns, especially guns used by minorities in self defense. There is no surprise they support the racist anti-gang banger laws.

85 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:02:14pm

Mandatory my ass. She wouldn't have faced the 10-20-Life sentence if the State Attorney Angela Corey didn't throw the book at her. It was up to them to use discretion or even attempt to make an exception in this case and threw the whole prosecutorial firepower against Marissa Alexander. Alexander of course likely got stuck with a public defender. One attorney against the state. Had she been rich she would have had a whole law firm working for her defense.

86 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:03:51pm

re: #81 William Barnett-Lewis

DF, this is the deep south we're talking about. They won't change any laws that let them lock away minorities for decades for no good reason. It's white privilege all the way the way down.

Florida is not the Deep South, or at least much of it is not. You are arguing without evidence. I have made clear what the origins and support for this law were, and they do not support your contention. Either back up your contention or back off.

87 Targetpractice  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:04:00pm

re: #85 Gus

Mandatory my ass. She wouldn't have faced the 10-20-Life sentence if the State Attorney Angela Corey didn't throw the book at her. It was up to them to use discretion or even attempt to make an exception in this case and threw the whole prosecutorial firepower against Marissa Alexander. Alexander of course likely got stuck with a public defender. One attorney against the state. Had she been rich she would have had a whole law firm working for her defense.

It really is a story in contrasts, between her and GZ. Particularly the bolded, which is likely going to play out in GZ's favor before this is all over.

88 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:04:11pm

re: #83 Targetpractice

It's the kind of "tough on crime" law that's so popular in states with large numbers of gun-related crimes, the kind politicians love because they call tell the voters that it will keep criminals off streets without acknowledging the number of folks who get sent away for 20 because they so much as brandished a gun.

Hey, blaming the guns is so much easier than solving the real causes - poverty, lack of jobs, a judicial system biased against anyone not rich & white.

89 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:05:24pm

re: #83 Targetpractice

It's the kind of "tough on crime" law that's so popular in states with large numbers of gun-related crimes, the kind politicians love because they call tell the voters that it will keep criminals off streets without acknowledging the number of folks who get sent away for 20 because they so much as brandished a gun.

If she'd brandished the gun, it would have been 10 years, not 20. I'm not disagreeing about the rest, though such a motivation would not show racist intent.

90 dragonath  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:06:33pm

re: #89 Dark_Falcon


And if she had shot him? What then? "Stand Your Ground"?

Jeez, Florida sounds like the Klingon Empire or something.

91 Targetpractice  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:06:55pm

re: #89 Dark_Falcon

If she'd brandished the gun, it would have been 10 years, not 20. I'm not disagreeing about the rest, though such a motivation would not show racist intent.

I wouldn't argue the intent on the part of lawmakers is racist, just the execution by the judicial system.

92 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:07:13pm

re: #86 Dark_Falcon

Florida is not the Deep South, or at least much of it is not. You are arguing without evidence. I have made clear what the origins and support for this law were, and they do not support your contention. Either back up your contention or back off.

I understand you believe the party line on these laws. I am sorry but all you have to do is watch how they are employed - against the poor & the minority - to see what the real world cause of these laws are.

The NRA will say whatever they think is needed. The Brady Bunch will do the same. Both are totally corrupt organizations that exist to promote their collection of money.

93 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:07:56pm

Ha. Bull. If she was some blonde haired white woman from the burbs she wouldn't have even been charged as she was.

94 freetoken  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:08:09pm

We're well off Rev. Wright by now... which is probably what will happen to this story in the large. But I do expect Klein to come back (and back and ....) and eventually his books will be pushed via WND.

In other news, these headlines stood out to me:

Oregon Church Sues Ex-Members Over Online Criticism

Does Thinking About God Improve Our Self-Control?

The ice melt cometh
But flawless coverage about happenings in Antarctica has been rare

Climate change is latest problem that's admitted but ignored

When Teachers Overcompensate for Racial Prejudice

I suspect all those stories could be related to Rev. Wright, if I tried hard enough.

95 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:08:53pm

re: #93 Gus

Ha. Bull. If she was some blonde haired white woman from the burbs she wouldn't have even been charged as she was.

QFT.

96 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:10:13pm

re: #78 Gus

Florida. Pfff. I think we should secede from the original Confederate states once and for all.

I don't plan on moving from TN anytime, so pardon me if I don't jump on your idea; besides, "out of sight, out of mind" is not really a valid solution for anything.

We're in it together, as the Civil War taught us; let us never make that mistake again.

97 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:11:26pm

re: #96 Gitarzan

I don't plan on moving from TN anytime, so pardon me if I don't jump on your idea; besides, "out of sight, out of mind" is not really a valid solution for anything.

We're in it together, as the Civil War taught us; let us never make that mistake again.

OK. Then I'll withdraw my vote from the floor.

//

98 Varek Raith  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:12:17pm

re: #97 Gus

OK. Then I'll withdraw my vote from the floor.

//

99 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:14:26pm

re: #85 Gus

Mandatory my ass. She wouldn't have faced the 10-20-Life sentence if the State Attorney Angela Corey didn't throw the book at her. It was up to them to use discretion or even attempt to make an exception in this case and threw the whole prosecutorial firepower against Marissa Alexander. Alexander of course likely got stuck with a public defender. One attorney against the state. Had she been rich she would have had a whole law firm working for her defense.

You're actually wrong about that. This article in the Florida Times-Union names her attorney, Kevin Cobbin. Here's his web page, he runs his own small law firm, with more than one lawyer under him. Marrissa Alexander did indeed have a real lawyer.

100 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:15:33pm

re: #85 Gus

Mandatory my ass. She wouldn't have faced the 10-20-Life sentence if the State Attorney Angela Corey didn't throw the book at her. It was up to them to use discretion or even attempt to make an exception in this case and threw the whole prosecutorial firepower against Marissa Alexander. Alexander of course likely got stuck with a public defender. One attorney against the state. Had she been rich she would have had a whole law firm working for her defense.

And Corey is the same FL state attorney that people (including myself) are hoping will put GZ in a deep, dark hole for a long time; when she took the Martin case up and filed charges, my hopes were high.

Now, with the aftermath of the Alexander case, my confidence that GZ will get something resembling what he deserves has taken a major hit.

BTW, mandatory sentencing blows goats.

101 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:17:59pm

re: #99 Dark_Falcon

You're actually wrong about that. This article in the Florida Times-Union names her attorney, Kevin Cobbin. Here's his web page, he runs his own small law firm, with more than one lawyer under him. Marrissa Alexander did indeed have a real lawyer.

OK, right. Money doesn't buy a huge defense team. Yep.

102 freetoken  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:18:17pm

BTW, sort of on topic, WND is pushing the AYERS!! outrage again.

I'm just hoping the Christmas tree ornament outrage makes it onto the Outrage-du-jour menu before the election.

103 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:18:45pm

Bomb Iran!

//

104 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:20:20pm

re: #100 Gitarzan

And Corey is the same FL state attorney that people (including myself) are hoping will put GZ in a deep, dark hole for a long time; when she took the Martin case up and filed charges, my hopes were high.

Now, with the aftermath of the Alexander case, my confidence that GZ will get something resembling what he deserves has taken a major hit.

I bet the same folks that defend or are, shall we say, impartial (cough) about Zimmerman will say that justice was served properly in the case of Alexander.

105 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:20:31pm

re: #101 Gus

OK, right. Money doesn't buy a huge defense team. Yep.

Gus, cool down. No she didn't have huge legal team, but she didn't have a public defender either. She had a real lawyer with some support, and I felt it was important to note that. Please don't move the goal posts, that what jerks do. At least give me credit personally for doing the research and giving you the facts.

106 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:22:14pm
107 palomino  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:27:41pm

re: #46 Dark_Falcon

You mentioned McCain, and he didn't use it as an issue.

But Romney and his SuperPacs don't have the same scruples and integrity of a John McCain. So we will continue to hear about this for the next 6 months, as if it were a real or new issue.

108 Targetpractice  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:32:16pm

re: #107 palomino

But Romney and his SuperPacs don't have the same scruples and integrity of a John McCain. So we will continue to hear about this for the next 6 months, as if it were a real or new issue.

They don't believe Obama's a pig-fucker, they just want to make him deny it.

///

109 freetoken  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:34:05pm

Speaking of re-used outrages, the whole race-dimension of American politics has pretty much outshone nearly all others (save perhaps the Jesus™ industry) in defining the past 4 years.

And when one speaks of race and politics I think of Derbyshire and his associates (from National Review to VDARE.)

Derbyshire wrote an article last week at Taki's listing some of his favorite online reading (yes, the Daily Mail, VDARE and Drudge were central to his list), but he goes on to list such ugliness as Fred On Everything.

I'm still struck by the utter hypocrisy of the supposedly mainline "conservative" outlets who ignore their own long history with skunks of such odor.

110 Interesting Times  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:35:34pm
111 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:38:02pm

re: #110 Interesting Times

[Embedded content]

Only straight women should be allowed to be mothers.
-- Mitt Romney

[Hurl]

112 palomino  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:38:38pm

...

113 palomino  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:42:46pm

re: #86 Dark_Falcon

Florida is not the Deep South, or at least much of it is not. You are arguing without evidence. I have made clear what the origins and support for this law were, and they do not support your contention. Either back up your contention or back off.

No offense, but your understanding of FL's geography is lacking. Yes, south Florida, with progressive communities like Miami, isn't really deep South. But this is Jacksonville, in the northern part of the state, next to the Georgia state line. It is most definitely deep south.

114 simoom  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:42:48pm

Edward Klein's previous works:

[Link: mediamatters.org...]

His last offering was coauthored with John LeBoutillier, previously seen pushing various birther claims and trying to build a Counter Clinton Library to push conspiracies like the former president's supposed role in dozens of murders. Their self-published book, The Obama Identity: A Novel (Or Is It?), depicts a CIA agent's fictional (but based on "real stuff") investigation into President Obama, which reveals him to be a Kenyan-born Muslim Manchurian candidate.

Before that, in his thinly sourced, factually deficient 2005 tome The Truth About Hillary Klein insinuated that Hillary Clinton is a lesbian who conceived her daughter Chelsea after being raped by Bill Clinton; the book was widely denounced even by conservatives. That one, Klein claimed, was not a novel.

115 palomino  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:48:07pm

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

Bullshit, how the hell is she "safe" in the garage if she doesn't have the car keys to escape the HOUSE, which is the real "zone of danger."

Why do you feel such a need to deny race as a factor in contemporary American society? Every day we hear racist comments, well documented on this blog, against our first black president. If he can be the victim of racism, is it that far fetched that anonymous blacks in the deep south still face some of the injustices they did back in the 60s and 70s?

116 dragonath  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:48:21pm

I think the current Floridian administration is a sinking ship.... They know they're going down but they want to send a message.

During the last election, Jacksonville elected their first black Democratic mayor for the first time ever.

and...

Marco Rubio's aide resigns, accused of rolling wife up in rug and beating her

and from today:

Top aide to Florida governor resigns amid scrutiny

The outgoing chief of staff had drawn public scrutiny for alleged deal making and influence peddling under Scott, including his purported steering of at least two no-bid contracts to acquaintances or partners of close friends.

117 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:49:12pm

re: #113 palomino

No offense, but your understanding of FL's geography is lacking. Yes, south Florida, with progressive communities like Miami, isn't really deep South. But this is Jacksonville, in the northern part of the state, next to the Georgia state line. It is most definitely deep south.

My point was that the the deep south parts can't pass laws for the whole state, and didn't in this case. The '10-20-life' law wasn't a law pushed through by Southern racists, it had broad political support.

118 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:49:56pm
119 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:50:11pm

re: #118 Gus

[Embedded content]

Sec. 4. That if any master or mistress shall have sexual or carnal intercourse with his or her servant or servants of the African race, he or she shall forfeit all claim to said servant or servants to the commonwealth; and if any white person shall be guilty of sexual intercourse with any of the African race, they shall be subject, on conviction thereof to a fine of not exceeding one thousand dollars nor less than five hundred, to the use of the Territory, and imprisonment, not exceeding three years.

120 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:50:46pm

Ah the good old days. Before the decline of moral values.

//

121 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:51:40pm

re: #116 Be Zorch, Daddio

Keep dreaming. Regional managers are not something that can sink a senator in his second year of six. By 2016, no one will remember that he even worked for Rubio, nor is their evidence Rubio knew of or condoned this man's beating his wife.

122 Targetpractice  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:52:34pm

re: #121 Dark_Falcon

Keep dreaming. Regional managers are not something that can sink a senator in his second year of six. By 2016, no one will remember that he even worked for Rubio, nor is their evidence Rubio knew of or condoned this man's beating his wife.

The rate things are going, by 2016, nobody will remember Marco Rubio.

123 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:53:36pm

re: #122 Targetpractice

The rate things are going, by 2016, nobody will remember Marco Rubio.

With any luck. He always looks like he's in period dress. Ready to be photographed in black and white film.

124 darthstar  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:54:05pm

re: #122 Targetpractice

The rate things are going, by 2016, nobody will remember Marco Rubio.

I'm sure his parole officer will remember him.

125 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:54:07pm

Standing alone against the wingnut army again:

[Link: www.memeorandum.com...]

126 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:55:27pm

You guys don't really want to discuss the issues, do you? You seem to just want to rip on Florida Republicans as a bunch of racists.

127 dragonfire1981  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:55:28pm

re: #24 Gus

Sent you a DM.

Finally got your message. Sorry for the delay. Sent you one back.

128 Targetpractice  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:55:56pm

I actually have to feel sort of sorry for Rubio, even 10 years ago, he'd have been at home, if not particularly noteworthy in the party. A young "up-and-comer" being groomed for higher office. But in the current GOP atmosphere, he's finding himself in danger of being shown the door.

129 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:56:03pm

re: #124 darthstar

I'm sure his parole officer will remember him.

Rubio isn't a criminal.

130 palomino  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:56:57pm

re: #126 Dark_Falcon

You guys don't really want to discuss the issues, do you? You seem to just want to rip on Florida Republicans as a bunch of racists.

Have we seen no evidence of racism in the Florida GOP, or the GOP of most other states for that matter?

131 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:57:23pm

re: #127 dragonfire1981

Finally got your message. Sorry for the delay. Sent you one back.

On Twitter? Not seeing it yet.

132 simoom  Sun, May 13, 2012 3:57:51pm

re: #114 simoom

[Link: mediamatters.org...]

More from Klein's previous Obama book, The Obama Identity: A Novel (Or Is It?), fictional (but sprinkled with quote "real stuff" /// :roll-eyes:):

An Imam in Indonesia who "tutored" Obama is described as an attempted rapist and part of a plot to "plant converted Muslims inside non-Muslim governments with the hope that they would someday rise to hold high governmental positions." A young Obama is depicted saying, "the United States of America is responsible for the spread of imperialism." His imam calls Obama "the best bower I have ever coached." A ceremony of removing Obama's foreskin is described as having "cleansed Barry of his impure American ideas." Later in the novel a KGB agent uses the evidence of this foreskin to blackmail Obama not to take military action against Iran. (p. 173-7, 308)

...

As evidence of his narcissism, Obama orders wardrobe mirrors "installed on the back of every door" of the White House so that he can be alone "with your favorite person". Obama explains that he wants Chicago renamed Obama, Illinois and wants textbooks re-written to "explain how every problem we have in this country is the Republicans' fault." Obama also orders up a "plan to put my likeness up on Mount Rushmore." (p. 249-50, 252-3)

...

The novel re-imagines the debunked story of Obama's stepgrandmother confirming his birth in Kenya with Sarah Obama dismissing concerns about eligibility "because Allah will make him president anyway." (p. 105)

...

CBS anchor Katie Couric is described as wanting to "go out on a date with Barack." Later she is described with "erect nipples" "clearly visible through her blouse" while "in full swoon over Barack Obama." (p. 136, 185)

...

In the Oval Office, Obama has his feet washed by a "Filipino steward," then "barely dressed Thai boys" "kneeled on the floor" and fanned away Obama's cigarette smoke. (p. 248, 250)

Sounds like Klein is some sort of right-wing uber troll, with all the conspiratorial, racial, misogynistic, xenophobic BS that goes along with that.

133 palomino  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:00:29pm

re: #117 Dark_Falcon

My point was that the the deep south parts can't pass laws for the whole state, and didn't in this case. The '10-20-life' law wasn't a law pushed through by Southern racists, it had broad political support.

When there's a gop state legislature, they actually can get laws passed and signed by the gop governors FL has had for most of the last two decades. A swing state like FL can still have some pretty ill-considered laws on its books.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter if some Dems voted for it...the question is its specific application in this case. Which looks like a total miscarriage of anything resembling justice.

134 darthstar  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:01:33pm

re: #129 Dark_Falcon

Rubio isn't a criminal.

to you.

135 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:01:48pm

re: #130 palomino

Have we seen no evidence of racism in the Florida GOP, or the GOP of most other states for that matter?

That isn't the point. I was trying to discuss the law in the Alexander case, and when I found out the acctual status of her lawyer, all i got was a smartass remark from Gus. It felt like no one wanted to hear it, because it contradicted the meme that people here had going.

136 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:02:28pm

re: #134 darthstar

to you.

What crime do you think he has committed?

137 dragonath  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:03:05pm

re: #121 Dark_Falcon

I wasn't even talking about Rubio. I'm talking about the general state of corruption that exists in the state right now. No bid contracts, etc...

But, hey, if you really want to make an argument about it, Rubio's aide caused bodily harm to another person and got, what, a year in jail? And Marissa Alexander gets 20?

138 darthstar  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:03:30pm

Batten down the hatches! Damn the torpedoes! Full steam ahead!

Me, I'm taking the dogs to the beach. I know, this train wreck won't watch itself, but it's going to have to manage without my helpful input.

139 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:05:10pm

re: #137 Be Zorch, Daddio

I wasn't even talking about Rubio. I'm talking about the general state of corruption that exists in the state right now. No bid contracts, etc...

But, hey, if you really want to make an argument about it, Rubio's aide caused bodily harm to another person and got, what, a year in jail? And Marissa Alexander gets 20?

The regional manager hasn't been tried yet. We do not yet know if he will be found guilty, or if so what sentence he will receive.

140 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:05:48pm

re: #138 darthstar

Too late, since you've already left dogshit on this thread.

141 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:06:38pm

re: #135 Dark_Falcon

That isn't the point. I was trying to discuss the law in the Alexander case, and when I found out the acctual status of her lawyer, all i got was a smartass remark from Gus. It felt like no one wanted to hear it, because it contradicted the meme that people here had going.

I don't want to hear it. That's why I stopped talking about it. That's life. As far as the allegation of calling the poor sad Florida Republicans racists I never made such a charge. Pretty lame accusation if I do say so myself.

142 palomino  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:09:47pm

re: #135 Dark_Falcon

That isn't the point. I was trying to discuss the law in the Alexander case, and when I found out the acctual status of her lawyer, all i got was a smartass remark from Gus. It felt like no one wanted to hear it, because it contradicted the meme that people here had going.

So what if she had an allegedly decent attorney instead of an overworked public defender? That by no means automatically prevents a huge injustice. There are a lot of fallible people--like all of us--whose work culminates in a conviction: cops, forensic investigators, lawyers on both sides, judges and juries. As well as the state legislature and the absurd laws they often pass.

143 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:12:44pm

re: #141 Gus

I don't want to hear it. That's why I stopped talking about it. That's life. As far as the allegation of calling the poor sad Florida Republicans racists I never made such a charge. Pretty lame accusation if I do say so myself.

It's just that I get lambast as 'uniniformed' a whole bunch of times, and then I make extra effort to be imformed and informative and got the brush-off for it. That makes me hostile.

144 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:15:31pm

re: #143 Dark_Falcon

It's just that I get lambast as 'uniniformed' a whole bunch of times, and then I make extra effort to be imformed and informative and got the brush-off for it. That makes me hostile.

I'll say. I compiled a list of the crap you flung on me:

• Gus, cool down.
• Don't move the goal posts
• What jerks do.
• Smartass remark from Gus.

145 PhillyPretzel  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:23:29pm

OT: Is Killgore Trout in the room because I have a question about marigolds? Is it better to buy them as small plants or as seeds?

146 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:27:11pm

re: #145 PhillyPretzel

OT: Is Killgore Trout in the room because I have a question about marigolds? Is it better to buy them as small plants or as seeds?

I'd go ahead and buy plants. If you can find them in little 4" pots they should be just a couple bucks each. I assume you're going to use them for pest control. I've noticed garlic works really well on squirrels and cats, probably other critters too.

147 PhillyPretzel  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:29:41pm

re: #146 Killgore Trout
I like the idea of plants and not waiting for them to bloom. I am supposed to be getting my fence for my front "lawn" (postage stamp) and I wanted something bright and cute. I know about the pest control because my dad used to plant them around his roses.

148 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:31:17pm

re: #146 Killgore Trout

I'd go ahead and buy plants. If you can find them in little 4" pots they should be just a couple bucks each. I assume you're going to use them for pest control. I've noticed garlic works really well on squirrels and cats, probably other critters too.

re: #147 PhillyPretzel

I like the idea of plants and not waiting for them to bloom. I am supposed to be getting my fence for my front "lawn" (postage stamp) and I wanted something bright and cute. I know about the pest control because my dad used to plant them around his roses.

thanks, guys, for helping to provide a break and a lighter topic. It was needed.

149 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:32:07pm

BTW, I know it won't help his cause here (and him probably harm it) but I'd like to make a general defense of DF. Actually having an understanding of the legal issues behind the court's decision shouldn't be a crime. Simply claiming racism and bigotry probably isn't going to help the situation. Having a real world understanding of the legal issues would serve the cause better.

150 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:33:22pm

re: #148 Dark_Falcon

re: #147 PhillyPretzel

thanks, guys, for helping to provide a break and a lighter topic. It was needed.

Shit, sorry. I just started it up again but I really don't have an interest in debating it here. I just thought maybe a little support might cheer you up.

151 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:33:48pm

re: #150 Killgore Trout

Shit, sorry. I just started it up again but I really don't have an interest in debating it here. I just thought maybe a little support might cheer you up.

It is very much appreciated.

152 PhillyPretzel  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:34:34pm

re: #147 PhillyPretzel

Thanks. I will look for small pots or a "market flat" of marigold plants. I am also thinking of getting small arborvitae too. The dwarf varieties. this message is for Killgore Trout.

153 Lidane  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:36:42pm
154 Henchman 26  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:37:23pm

re: #145 PhillyPretzel

OT: Is Killgore Trout in the room because I have a question about marigolds? Is it better to buy them as small plants or as seeds?

Depends on whether you intend to grow them or smoke them.

155 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:38:26pm

No comment.

156 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:40:03pm

re: #153 Lidane

Related:

Shooting targets resembling Trayvon Martin sold online

Not really related: Just a hateful asshole looking to profit from someone else getting killed. But I'm sure it thrills the hell out of Robert Stacy McCain, and he's probably used his first target already. I can see him now, as my nausea rises: him firing some overly teched-up pistol at the target while calling out various epithets all featuring the n-word. So yeah, those targets piss me off. A lot.

157 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:40:33pm

re: #154 Cathartic Expression

Depends on whether you intend to grow them or smoke them.

They can't bust you for seeds!

/Cheech & Chong, Up in Smoke

158 Lidane  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:43:21pm

The Indiana GOP base threw Dick Lugar out for this nutjob? WTF.

Richard Mourdock Wants His Own Senate Race To Be Unconstitutional

Indiana U.S. Senate candidate Richard Mourdock, the Tea Party candidate who proclaimed that “bipartisanship ought to consist of Democrats coming to the Republican point of view” shortly after defeating longtime incumbent Sen. Richard Lugar (R-IN), does not think he should be elected to the U.S. Senate. Indeed, he believes that it should be unconstitutional for anyone to run for the Senate. At a campaign event last February, the Tea Party candidate came out against the Seventeenth Amendment, which ensures that senators will be chosen by elections and not by state legislatures.

So he's running for an office in an election that he doesn't even think should be allowed to exist? Yeah. That's a totally sane candidate.

159 Targetpractice  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:45:33pm

re: #158 Lidane

The Indiana GOP base threw Dick Lugar out for this nutjob? WTF.

Richard Mourdock Wants His Own Senate Race To Be Unconstitutional

So he's running for an office in an election that he doesn't even think should be allowed to exist? Yeah. That's a totally sane candidate.

Then perhaps he should save the GOP money and just drop out of the race.

160 Henchman 26  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:45:54pm

re: #158 Lidane

The Indiana GOP base threw Dick Lugar out for this nutjob? WTF.

Richard Mourdock Wants His Own Senate Race To Be Unconstitutional

So he's running for an office in an election that he doesn't even think should be allowed to exist? Yeah. That's a totally sane candidate.

If you want to make changes to the system, the best way is from within the existing system.

This guy may be a loonie-tune (as other evidence shows), but this actually makes some sense.

161 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:45:54pm

re: #158 Lidane

The Indiana GOP base threw Dick Lugar out for this nutjob? WTF.

Richard Mourdock Wants His Own Senate Race To Be Unconstitutional

So he's running for an office in an election that he doesn't even think should be allowed to exist? Yeah. That's a totally sane candidate.

What is it with the righting hate of the 17th amendment, it shows up every so often but I never get why, do they think the state legislatures lean more right,y than their states?

162 dragonath  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:46:34pm

re: #158 Lidane

Let's bring back the conditions that existed in the Gilded Age! Maybe we'll get a new Thomas Nast out of the deal.

163 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:46:58pm

DF, I am versed in the laws. I have a Wisconsin CCP & I carry on a daily basis.

There was nothing wrong with the old self defense laws. They codified an understanding of civilized behavior under English Common Law dating back to at least the 5th Century. 1500 years of law. There was nothing that needed to be changed to account for any changes in the modern world. The principles had been worked out in real life over and over and over. Behave in one way and it's ok; behave in another and you are "out law".

Yet all of a sudden the NRA & Brady Bunch start pushing ALEC written SYG laws that totally upend a millenium and a half of legal precedent. And you really want me to believe it wasn't to keep the poor & the dark skinned down?

You may continue to believe what you will; I will try to make this my last comment on the subject. There is no good reason for these laws, rather there are lots of bad ones. By Occam's Razor I believe the bad reasons are why these laws were passed.

164 Lidane  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:47:51pm

re: #159 Targetpractice

Then perhaps he should save the GOP money and just drop out of the race.

Seriously. Just drop out of the election if you don't think anyone should run for Senate in the first place.

Also, WTF? Why is the direct election of Senators such a problem for these imbeciles? I don't get that.

165 Gus  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:49:01pm

re: #160 Cathartic Expression

If you want to make changes to the system, the best way is from within the existing system.

This guy may be a loonie-tune (as other evidence shows), but this actually makes some sense.

He'll probably win.

Dey tuk er jobs! //

166 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:50:10pm

re: #163 William Barnett-Lewis

No, I think the reason was to counter perceived (rightly or wrongly) anti-gun bias on the part of prosecutors and judges, and to keep NRA members from falling foul of head-hunting prosecutors ('head-hunting' meaning that the prosecutor wasn't so much bias as desiring to gain a win).

167 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:52:00pm

re: #166 Dark_Falcon

No, I think the reason was to counter perceived (rightly or wrongly) anti-gun bias on the part of prosecutors and judges, and to keep NRA members from falling foul of head-hunting prosecutors ('head-hunting' meaning that the prosecutor wasn't so much bias as desiring to gain a win).

Do NRA members routinely shoot people in public places that they need SYG to protect them?

168 Targetpractice  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:53:08pm

re: #164 Lidane

Seriously. Just drop out of the election if you don't think anyone should run for Senate in the first place.

Also, WTF? Why is the direct election of Senators such a problem for these imbeciles? I don't get that.

First guess? It actually makes Senate seats competitive, which means even in red states you can have Democrats holding one or both Senate seats. By doing away with direct elections, majority GOP state legislatures can just put whichever nutbar they want into the seats without any input from the voters.

169 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:54:58pm

re: #168 Targetpractice

First guess? It actually makes Senate seats competitive, which means even in red states you can have Democrats holding one or both Senate seats. By doing away with direct elections, majority GOP state legislatures can just put whichever nutbar they want into the seats without any input from the voters.

Of course, that goes both ways: Without the 17th Amendment, Scott Brown and Mark Kirk would never have been Senators at all, since the Dems control the legislatures in Massachusetts and Illinois.

170 simoom  Sun, May 13, 2012 4:58:41pm

re: #132 simoom

Klein's previous Obama book, The Obama Identity: A Novel (Or Is It?)

The trailers for the book...

171 dragonath  Sun, May 13, 2012 5:01:56pm

re: #168 Targetpractice

Oh it'd be a friggin disaster after the Citizen's United decision. Can you imagine all the corruption in state houses? Like, times, a million?

I think part of it has to do with Republicans holding such a large majority in state legislatures right now. There's no way they'd have pushed something like this 10 or 15 years ago. Vote the bums out*!

172 Henchman 26  Sun, May 13, 2012 5:02:33pm

The 'get tough on crime' ideology is a product of the right wing 'scare the populace into voting for us' tactic. If the common man took the time to actually look at the science they'd find crime stats are currently going down, not because of any policy but because crime is cyclical and based on causes such as poverty, an absence of opportunity resulting in feelings of hopelessness and a perceived inability to control the future.

173 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Sun, May 13, 2012 5:04:51pm

re: #164 Lidane

Seriously. Just drop out of the election if you don't think anyone should run for Senate in the first place.

Also, WTF? Why is the direct election of Senators such a problem for these imbeciles? I don't get that.

Changing demographics in citizenry. If you push the election of Senators back to the legislatures then the party machinery will be in full control. And that will include all the little tricks and such that can be pulled to retain control at the state level that won't work at the Federal level.

Like less attention being paid to gerrymandering at the state level.

174 Targetpractice  Sun, May 13, 2012 5:05:32pm

re: #169 Dark_Falcon

Of course, that goes both ways: Without the 17th Amendment, Scott Brown and Mark kirk would never have been Senators at all, since the Dems control the legislatures in Massachusetts and Illinois.

Acceptable losses, in their minds. If anything, they view guys like Brown as an argument against the 17th Amendment, since keeping Senate seats competitive means making compromises that detracts from their "purity." They'd rather have guys like Mourdock appointed across the country than be stuck supporting a Brown because he's liberal enough to win in a blue state.

175 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 13, 2012 5:11:20pm

You know that batshit crazy gay-hating lady in Nebraska?
Watch the video again WITH THE SOUND OFF. Look at the facial expressions on the guy behind her. PRICELESS!

176 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 5:12:53pm

re: #174 Targetpractice

Acceptable losses, in their minds. If anything, they view guys like Brown as an argument against the 17th Amendment, since keeping Senate seats competitive means making compromises that detracts from their "purity." They'd rather have guys like Mourdock appointed across the country than be stuck supporting a Brown because he's liberal enough to win in a blue state.

Well, I disagree with that entirely. That sounds more like a recipe for civil war than anything else.

177 Targetpractice  Sun, May 13, 2012 5:15:00pm

re: #176 Dark_Falcon

Well, I disagree with that entirely. That sounds more like a recipe for civil war than anything else.

It was. Given half a chance, it would be again. But you have to stop and consider that perhaps that's their intention, of setting up a situation where war is the only means of overcoming the impasse of a nation divided against itself.

178 PhillyPretzel  Sun, May 13, 2012 5:16:14pm

re: #173 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

OT: How is the feline overlord?

179 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 5:17:27pm

re: #177 Targetpractice

It was. Given half a chance, it would be again. But you have to stop and consider that perhaps that's their intention, of setting up a situation where war is the only means of overcoming the impasse of a nation divided against itself.

You know my answer to that:

180 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Sun, May 13, 2012 5:20:22pm

re: #177 Targetpractice

It was. Given half a chance, it would be again. But you have to stop and consider that perhaps that's their intention, of setting up a situation where war is the only means of overcoming the impasse of a nation divided against itself.

When you see agitation for overturning Reynolds vs Sims you know where things are headed.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]re:

181 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Sun, May 13, 2012 5:22:07pm

re: #178 PhillyPretzel

OT: How is the feline overlord?

About the same. Unhappy most of the day due to the apartment smelling like cooking pork. Happier now that he has a belly full of it.

(Cooked two batches of pulled pork this weekend. 4lbs already gone. The rest goes to work tomorrow to poison feed the contractors.)

182 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 5:22:27pm

re: #173 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Changing demographics in citizenry. If you push the election of Senators back to the legislatures then the party machinery will be in full control. And that will include all the little tricks and such that can be pulled to retain control at the state level that won't work at the Federal level.

Like less attention being paid to gerrymandering at the state level.

Just took a look at your Aberdeen photos. Very good stuff, which I thank you for posting. But your #43 isn't titled. The vehicle it depicts is a Former-Soviet BTR wheeled APC.

183 Targetpractice  Sun, May 13, 2012 5:22:56pm

re: #180 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

When you see agitation for overturning Reynolds vs Sims you know where things are headed.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]re:

Oh, they went further than that. They wanted to upend the Voting Rights Act entirely, on the grounds that federal enforcement to prevent discriminatory voting practices was "overreach."

184 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 13, 2012 5:27:24pm

re: #183 Targetpractice

Oh, they went further than that. They wanted to upend the Voting Rights Act entirely, on the grounds that federal enforcement to prevent discriminatory voting practices was "overreach."

On that one National Review actually put out a number of articles against that view recently. The view expressed was most recently expressed by Maggie Gallagher in the wake of John Derbyshire's firing. She made the point that the federal inventions of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 were justified, as they were the only way to combat the effects of deeply engrained southern racism.

185 Amory Blaine  Sun, May 13, 2012 5:37:09pm

Went to the music store all baked. Came home with a djembe :p

186 Decatur Deb  Sun, May 13, 2012 5:41:26pm

re: #185 Amory Blaine

Went to the music store all baked. Came home with a djembe :p

Be glad its not a Steinway.

187 Henchman 26  Sun, May 13, 2012 5:51:37pm

re: #185 Amory Blaine

Went to the music store all baked. Came home with a djembe :p

Expect to hear drumming in your ears.

188 Kragar  Sun, May 13, 2012 5:52:27pm

re: #186 Decatur Deb

Be glad its not a Steinway.

Could be worse, could be a Henweigh.

189 Henchman 26  Sun, May 13, 2012 5:53:18pm

re: #188 Kragar

Could be worse, could be a Henweigh.

What's a henweigh?

About 10lbs?

190 Kragar  Sun, May 13, 2012 5:54:04pm

re: #189 Cathartic Expression

What's a henweigh?

About 10lbs?

191 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, May 13, 2012 6:04:17pm

re: #189 Cathartic Expression

What's a henweigh?

About 10lbs?

Do I here a dickfer?

192 Henchman 26  Sun, May 13, 2012 6:07:48pm

re: #191 Gitarzan

Do I here a dickfer?

What's a dickfer?

Pissing into the wind?

193 Mich-again  Sun, May 13, 2012 6:36:01pm

re: #161 jamesfirecat

What is it with the righting hate of the 17th amendment, it shows up every so often but I never get why, do they think the state legislatures lean more right,y than their states?

The Original intent of the having State legislatures elect US Senators was to remove the Senators one layer from politically charged general elections and along with the 6-year terms, the idea was to make the Senate more of collaborative deep thinking group of statesmen, less beholden to day to day politics than their counterparts in the House. Ideally Senators would work to defend State's rights from engulfment by the Federal government.

The problem now is that politics have become completely digital and almost all votes are along strict party lines. Collaborating with the other party is a sign of weakness and the Partisan State Legislatures would not elect any Senator whose complete loyalty was in question.

If Mourdock had proposed what he really wants, which is a system where the State legislatures can elect a loyal party hack instead of leaving it up to the general population to vote, I might go along with the idea if it came with the actual elimination of the Senator's office and all their staff. Ha If all the GOP wants is a rubber stamp robot Senator, then we should just figure out a system where Party leaders mail in the yea or nay vote for for every issue, and get rid of the Senators themselves. That is what the GOP and the anti-17th Amendment crowd really want.

194 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Sun, May 13, 2012 6:48:44pm

re: #182 Dark_Falcon

Just took a look at your Aberdeen photos. Very good stuff, which I thank you for posting. But your #43 isn't titled. The vehicle it depicts is a Former-Soviet BTR wheeled APC.

Thanks for the ID. I probably just forgot to label it. My pet game when walking that area was identifying the vehicle or artillery piece before I read the plate (if any) saying what it was.

That was from a trip a few years back, probably 2007-08. Went there and toured the USS New Jersey on the same day. :)

I think at this point the museum is closed/relocating farther south as part of base consolidation. Not even sure you can get on the post anymore to few any of the outdoor displays. And when I was there even then the area of the base with "the mile of tanks" just inside the one gate was off limits. That line is US armor and a number of experimental and prototype vehicles lined up nose to tail down the median of the road. I saw back on my first visit in the 90s, but didn't have a camera with me at the time to my regret.

195 Decatur Deb  Sun, May 13, 2012 7:21:16pm

re: #194 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Thanks for the ID. I probably just forgot to label it. My pet game when walking that area was identifying the vehicle or artillery piece before I read the plate (if any) saying what it was.

That was from a trip a few years back, probably 2007-08. Went there and toured the USS New Jersey on the same day. :)

I think at this point the museum is closed/relocating farther south as part of base consolidation. Not even sure you can get on the post anymore to few any of the outdoor displays. And when I was there even then the area of the base with "the mile of tanks" just inside the one gate was off limits. That line is US armor and a number of experimental and prototype vehicles lined up nose to tail down the median of the road. I saw back on my first visit in the 90s, but didn't have a camera with me at the time to my regret.

Did a lot of TDY work at Aberdeen/Edgewood in the 80s when they were under ARDEC. There was a plot of a few acres of weeds with a pile of airframes to be used as test targets. One was the first B29 I ever saw.

196 Decatur Deb  Sun, May 13, 2012 7:28:16pm

re: #194 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Where APG photos? Didn't see them in this thread.

197 Decider  Sun, May 13, 2012 8:58:02pm

It would not be campaign season without mention of Rev. Wright. Hey Sean Hannity, it might just work this time. Go full force on it. lol.

198 efuseakay  Sun, May 13, 2012 9:16:05pm

re: #29 Kragar

Or she was white

And she was a he.

199 Eventual Carrion  Sun, May 13, 2012 10:42:39pm

re: #63 Dark_Falcon

Yes, I believe she would have gone to prison. The man in the example I mentioned was white, and he was convicted in a not-too-dissimilar circumstance.

Again, the law left the judge with no discretion as to the sentence. The law is that if you fire a gun during the commission of an aggravated assault, you get a 20 year sentence.

His children might have been endangered by him?

200 Patricia Kayden  Mon, May 14, 2012 6:11:43am

Reverend Wright is so 1998. The Rightwingers need a more relevant, timely "scandal". Poor things.


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