Report: George Zimmerman May Face Hate Crime Charges

Could face the death penalty
Crime • Views: 32,304

Florida’s WFTV is reporting that the FBI May Charge George Zimmerman With a Hate Crime.

SANFORD, Fla. — �WFTV has learned charges against George Zimmerman could be getting more serious.

State prosecutors said Zimmerman, a neighborhood watchman, profiled and stalked 17-year-old Trayvon Martin before killing him, so the FBI is now looking into charging him with a hate crime.

Zimmerman admitted to killing Martin in February during a confrontation. However, he claims the shooting was in self-defense. He’s facing a second-degree murder charge, which carries a maximum possible sentence of life in prison without the possibility of parole. But if Zimmerman is charged and found guilty of a federal hate crime involving murder, he could face the death penalty.

FBI investigators are actively questioning witnesses in the retreat at the Twin Lakes neighborhood, seeking evidence for a possible federal hate crime charge.

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589 comments

1 dragonfire1981  Tue, May 15, 2012 2:20:30pm

Ohhh the right is just going to love this: Obama sicing his FBI attack dogs on poor George Zimmerman.

2 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 2:21:03pm

I hope this isn't being done because of the public outcry.

3 Daniel Ballard  Tue, May 15, 2012 2:21:18pm

Sorry, I just keep reading that as WTF TV. It will be interesting to see what the best evidence is for a hate crime. Stalking alone ain't it. I wish the prosecutor well.

4 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 15, 2012 2:26:42pm

re: #2 Cathartic Expression

I hope this isn't being done because of the public outcry.

Probably not. I thought the original charges might have just been a convenient excuse to tie things up in court and let community tensions simmer down before it gets thrown out. A local prosecutor could get away with something like that but hate crime charges would be a pretty big deal and bringing up those charges would need to be serious.

5 Targetpractice  Tue, May 15, 2012 2:32:21pm

re: #3 Daniel Ballard

Sorry, I just keep reading that as WTF TV. It will be interesting to see what the best evidence is for a hate crime. Stalking alone ain't it. I wish the prosecutor well.

I'm curious as well to see what they based the charges on. One could argue that there's a pattern to GZ's actions regarding minorities, but nothing has been unearthed by the media so far that shows behavior that is unquestionably racist.

6 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 15, 2012 2:32:30pm

Hmmm....it seems the only evidence they site for possible hate crimes....

FBI investigators are actively questioning witnesses in the retreat at the Twin Lakes neighborhood, seeking evidence for a possible federal hate crime charge.

I think the story might be BS. The FBI is asking questions, as they should. Although it's technically true that they "may" introduce hate crime charges there's no new evidence to suggest the charges forthcoming. The FBI is investigating but we already knew that. It's starting to look like another case of piss poor reporting.

7 freetoken  Tue, May 15, 2012 2:35:47pm

re: #6 Killgore Trout

One reason to get the FBI involved in collecting data would be for prosecuting a hate crime. Perhaps - and this is only a guess on my part - the feds want to make sure the locals won't screw up (or even intentionally weaken) data collection in the case.

8 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 15, 2012 2:35:49pm

re: #6 Killgore Trout

They could have also used the headline "Zimmerman may go free" with equal accuracy based on the same evidence. It looks like the MSM trolling for traffic. Anyone else have any evidence of hate crime charges aside from the already known fact the FBI is investigating?

9 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 2:39:19pm

Sensationalism.

10 blueraven  Tue, May 15, 2012 2:44:12pm

re: #8 Killgore Trout

They could have also used the headline "Zimmerman may go free" with equal accuracy based on the same evidence. It looks like the MSM trolling for traffic. Anyone else have any evidence of hate crime charges aside from the already known fact the FBI is investigating?

No evidence of a hate crime but the state just turned over 67 CDs of evidence

[Link: articles.orlandosentinel.com...]

These agencies are all cooperating, so there may be something in there that suggest a racial motive.

11 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 15, 2012 2:46:52pm

re: #10 blueraven

No evidence of a hate crime but the state just turned over 67 CDs of evidence

[Link: articles.orlandosentinel.com...]

These agencies are all cooperating, so there may be something in there that suggest a racial motive.

I think the only interesting clue there is that there's video from the clubhouse. It may or may not back up Zimmerman's story.

12 blueraven  Tue, May 15, 2012 2:49:43pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

I think the only interesting clue there is that there's video from the clubhouse. It may or may not back up Zimmerman's story.

Well we actually dont know what they have, do we?

13 gwangung  Tue, May 15, 2012 2:51:33pm

re: #7 freetoken

One reason to get the FBI involved in collecting data would be for prosecuting a hate crime. Perhaps - and this is only a guess on my part - the feds want to make sure the locals won't screw up (or even intentionally weaken) data collection in the case.

Or maybe it isn't aimed at Zimmerman, but at others?

14 freetoken  Tue, May 15, 2012 2:58:43pm

re: #13 gwangung

Or maybe it isn't aimed at Zimmerman, but at others?

Don't know, but the FBI won't get involved in a local case unless asked by the local authorities. Again, this is guessing, but I wonder if using the "hate crime" laws allows the feds to go ahead with investigating without waiting for requests from local agencies.

15 gwangung  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:01:02pm

re: #14 freetoken

Yah. I was just speculating. If they were investigating police departments, it'd be something they'd do without waiting.

(Hm. And I think investigating the local police has far broader support than the FBI going after Zimmerman....)

16 Obdicut  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:01:07pm

re: #14 freetoken

It does, especially in cases where there's an idea that the locals might have been derelict precisely because it was a hate crime, or were simply biased in themselves.

17 darthstar  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:04:01pm
18 darthstar  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:13:37pm
19 Targetpractice  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:14:02pm

I'm still not convinced that the state's case against Zimmerman won't implode at pre-trial. Unless there's some earth-shattering revelations on those 67 discs turned over to the defense, there's just nothing there to dispute GZ's claim as to how the whole thing started. And if you can't do that, then odds are he walks.

20 Atlas Fails  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:15:30pm

Wow, this is kind of a shame. I'm no apologist for Zimmerman, but I hate to see the state flex its muscle by threatening a citizen with death. It's just so...base.

21 freetoken  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:16:13pm

Well off topic:


Canada penniless as it marks coin's end

Canada's last penny was struck Friday at The Royal Canadian Mint's manufacturing facility and will become a museum piece as the one-cent coins are withdrawn from circulation.

"For over a hundred years, the penny played an important role in Canada's coinage system," said Finance Minister Jim Flaherty.
"Although the cost of producing the penny now outweighs its value to Canadian consumers and businesses, it has had a long history that is worthy of recognition."

The last penny struck for Canadian circulation will be entrusted to the Currency Museum of the Bank of Canada in Ottawa, he said.

Flaherty announced in March the end of the penny, saying it would save the Treasury $11 million per year in manufacturing and distribution costs, as the government looks to trim its budget deficit.

Due to rising labor, metal and other manufacturing and distribution costs, each penny cost more than 1.6 cents to produce.

[...]

If I may draw a lesson here:

The US is "conservative" in more than one way, and this is reflected in our money. Americans really don't want to do the obvious - get rid of the copper clad penny and the paper one dollar bill - because of sentimentality, or maybe "conservatism".

Now, it's true Ron Paul and his friends want to do away with Federal Reserve Notes, but they would rather have gold backed currency and actual US Treasury notes printed rather than the private "Fed". So they'd be just fine if we had a $1 US Treasury paper dollar backed by a tiny sliver of silver.

Anyway, the US changes slowly when it comes to institutions, and our money reflects that.

22 Simply Sarah  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:17:23pm

re: #21 freetoken

Well off topic:

Canada penniless as it marks coin's end

If I may draw a lesson here:

The US is "conservative" in more than one way, and this is reflected in our money. Americans really don't want to do the obvious - get rid of the copper clad penny and the paper one dollar bill - because of sentimentality, or maybe "conservatism".

Now, it's true Ron Paul and his friends want to do away with Federal Reserve Notes, but they would rather have gold backed currency and actual US Treasury notes printed rather than the private "Fed". So they'd be just fine if we had a $1 US Treasury paper dollar backed by a tiny sliver of silver.

Anyway, the US changes slowly when it comes to institutions, and our money reflects that.

Pretty much. Everyone detests pennies...right up until you talk about getting rid of them.

23 darthstar  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:17:26pm

re: #18 darthstar

[Embedded content]

Okay, that's a fake Mitt Romney...I thought he made more sense than Mitt.

24 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:17:40pm

Testing the new HTML5 audio player for comments (w/ freetoken's MP3 from last night):

25 Simply Sarah  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:19:28pm

re: #20 Atlas Fails

Wow, this is kind of a shame. I'm no apologist for Zimmerman, but I hate to see the state flex its muscle by threatening a citizen with death. It's just so...base.

Well, I very much do hope that if they end up charging him with a federal hate crime they take death off the table. I won't be able to support this as a capital case.

26 freetoken  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:20:20pm

re: #24 Charles Johnson

HTML5 was going to save us from Flash, I thought... but it's been a long ride for the Apple-ites to convince the world.

27 darthstar  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:20:31pm
28 abolitionist  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:20:53pm

re: #24 Charles Johnson
Plays fine after reloading page.

29 freetoken  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:23:08pm

That music btw is from Sviridov's Hymns and Prayers, which isn't so easy to find and I can't even find an Amazon link to put up.

30 Gepetto  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:29:32pm

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

not as clear as it seemed.

31 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:30:24pm

re: #26 freetoken

HTML5 was going to save us from Flash, I thought... but it's been a long ride for the Apple-ites to convince the world.

The nice thing about this jQuery solution is that if you're looking at the page with a browser that can't handle HTML5, it falls back on a Flash video/audio player that looks very similar to the HTML5 player.

32 BongCrodny  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:32:34pm

From Huffpo:

"Thou shalt not speak ill of another Republican," Chapter 248,739:

Steve Vaillancourt, New Hampshire Lawmaker, Ejected From House After Nazi Salute"

A Republican lawmaker in New Hampshire was physically removed from the state House of Representatives on Tuesday afternoon after he made a Nazi salute during a contentious debate about limiting what is considered valid voter identification.

Rep. Steve Vaillancourt (R-Manchester) shouted, "Sieg Heil" and moved his hand in the air after House Speaker William O'Brien (R-Mont Vernon) restricted what he could address during a floor debate on an amendment to a state voter ID bill. O'Brien had restricted what Vaillancourt could say about the full bill, saying that he could not reference the House Election Law Committee's discussion, only the issues presented in the committee report.

O'Brien, who had previously threatened to toss Vaillancourt from the floor, used Vaillancourt's outburst to have the veteran lawmaker moved off the floor. It is first time in at least a decade that a House member has been removed from the chamber in New Hampshire. House members then voted 238 to 103 to allow Vaillancourt to apologize to the full chamber in order to be allowed back in, setting off further debate when Vaillancourt did not apologize in the manner that O'Brien had expected.

I hate Mont Vernon Nazis.

33 Simply Sarah  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:35:03pm

re: #32 BongCrodny

From Huffpo:

"Thou shalt not speak ill of another Republican," Chapter 248,739:

Steve Vaillancourt, New Hampshire Lawmaker, Ejected From House After Nazi Salute"

I hate Mont Vernon Nazis.

Link is broken (badly).

34 Targetpractice  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:36:36pm

OT:

Virginia House Rejects Judge Because He Is Gay

Why yes, now that you ask, I do think my state an utter fucking embarrassment this year.

35 jaunte  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:41:21pm

The abortion that Mitt doesn’t talk about anymore

...The outlines of the story first became public when Romney — unprompted — brought it up in that 1994 debate with Kennedy, whom he was trying to unseat. At the time, Romney, who was making his first bid for office, was struggling to prove his pro-choice bona fides to liberal Massachusetts voters. In the debate, he insisted that he separated his personal beliefs — opposition to abortion — from his policy position that abortion “should be safe and legal in this country.” Accused by Kennedy of being “multiple-choice,” Romney angrily fired back:

“On the idea of ‘multiple-choice,’ I have to respond. I have my own beliefs, and those beliefs are very dear to me. One of them is that I do not impose my beliefs on other people. Many, many years ago, I had a dear, close family relative that was very close to me who passed away from an illegal abortion. It is since that time that my mother and my family have been committed to the belief that we can believe as we want, but we will not force our beliefs on others on that matter. And you will not see me wavering on that.”

36 BongCrodny  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:41:54pm

re: #33 Simply Sarah

Link is broken (badly).


Well, hell.


Okay, let's try again.

37 ProGunLiberal  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:43:08pm

Looking at the last thread at the firestorm in it, I will say that I see the I-P Conflict as a tragedy of various historical circumstances, and will admit to be neutral. I understand why everyone acts the way the do over there.

38 sattv4u2  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:43:09pm

re: #8 Killgore Trout

It looks like the MSM trolling for traffic

Wow ,, that NEVER happens!!!
//

39 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:47:05pm

Love the smell of justice in the evening, smells like... victory.

40 sattv4u2  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:47:56pm

re: #39 jamesfirecat

Love the smell of justice in the evening, smells like... victory.

Well then, no need for a trial!

41 Only The Lurker Knows  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:49:44pm

re: #24 Charles Johnson

No audio. Running Win 7 and Safari 5.1.7 (7534.57.2)

Never mind. It works. It just loaded it first before allowing me to play it.

42 sattv4u2  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:50:20pm

re: #41 Bubblehead II

No audio. Running Win 7 and Safari 5.1.7 (7534.57.2)

(((ppssssttt ,,,, take the cotton balls outta your ears!!!)))

43 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:50:48pm

re: #40 sattv4u2

Well then, no need for a trial!

Hey the guy killed a kid, he should be brought to trial and the end result will be far more "just" regardless of if he is found guilty or not guilty than having the police sit around with their thumb up their own ass.

44 sattv4u2  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:53:20pm

re: #43 jamesfirecat

Hey the guy killed a kid, he should be brought to trial and the end result will be far more "just" regardless of if he is found guilty or not guilty than having the police sit around with their thumb up their own ass.

Are these the same police that brought himn in, questioned him, reported their findings to the DA, who handed down an arrest warrent, then those same police took him into custody until a court hearing on bail? Those police!?!?!

45 Only The Lurker Knows  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:56:05pm

re: #42 sattv4u2

Real men use cigarette butts.

46 sattv4u2  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:56:56pm

re: #45 Bubblehead II

Real men use cigarette butts.

with the lit side in!!

47 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:56:58pm

re: #44 sattv4u2

Are these the same police that brought himn in, questioned him, reported their findings to the DA, who handed down an arrest warrent, then those same police took him into custody until a court hearing on bail? Those police!?!?!

Those same Police who refused to arrest him until there was a national outcry, those same police who chief decided he needed to step down at least temporarily because of the piss poor he had done handling the case... yeah those police.

48 freetoken  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:57:13pm

re: #24 Charles Johnson

My Chrome browser (ver 18.0.1025.151) keeps loading the Flash version, even upon reload. Is the server software only sending HTML5 to certain versions of particular browsers?

49 bluecheese  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:59:01pm

re: #35 jaunte

nice link. thanks.

50 Only The Lurker Knows  Tue, May 15, 2012 3:59:39pm

re: #46 sattv4u2

Nah, just the filter portion. I have actually done this when I had to go into a high noise environment and ear plugs or muffs were not available. Not the best protection, but better than nothing.

51 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:01:07pm

re: #44 sattv4u2

Are these the same police that brought himn in, questioned him, reported their findings to the DA, who handed down an arrest warrent, then those same police took him into custody until a court hearing on bail? Those police!?!?!

Oh, sarcasm.

Our two weapons are fear, surprise and sarcasm.

52 sattv4u2  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:01:48pm

re: #51 Cathartic Expression

Oh, sarcasm.

Our two weapons are fear, surprise and sarcasm.

and sticks ,,, SHARP sticks!!

53 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:02:57pm

re: #51 Cathartic Expression

Oh, sarcasm.

Our two weapons are fear, surprise and sarcasm.

...and irony.

54 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:03:38pm

re: #53 Killgore Trout

...and irony.

And snappy red uniforms.

55 sattv4u2  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:03:39pm

re: #53 Killgore Trout

...and irony.

I onced used an iron as a weapon

Smoothed everything out nicely!

56 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:04:29pm

re: #48 freetoken

My Chrome browser (ver 18.0.1025.151) keeps loading the Flash version, even upon reload. Is the server software only sending HTML5 to certain versions of particular browsers?

Seems to be working here - you're using a Mac, right?

The version of Chrome I have is newer, though: Version 19.0.1084.46

57 freetoken  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:05:24pm

re: #56 Charles Johnson

Seems to be working here - you're using a Mac, right?

Yup, but I'm still on an old version of OSX, so I'm not sure if the Chrome browser is thusly limited.

58 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:05:37pm

re: #53 Killgore Trout

...and irony.

Our three weapons are fear, surprise, sarcasm and irony.

59 sattv4u2  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:06:21pm

re: #58 Cathartic Expression

Our three weapons are fear, surprise, sarcasm and irony.

why do you hate sticks ,, SHARP sticks!

60 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:06:27pm

re: #58 Cathartic Expression

Our three weapons are fear, surprise, sarcasm and irony.

And big pointy teeth.

61 sattv4u2  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:06:54pm

re: #58 Cathartic Expression

Our three weapons are fear, surprise, sarcasm and irony.

Nobody told us there was going to be math!

62 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:07:29pm

re: #59 sattv4u2

why do you hate sticks ,, SHARP sticks!

Anti-stickism!

63 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:07:43pm

re: #59 sattv4u2

why do you hate sticks ,, SHARP sticks!

Our four weapons are fear, surprise, sarcasm, irony and big pointy teeth.

But no sticks.

64 sattv4u2  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:08:01pm

re: #62 Killgore Trout

Anti-stickism!

Stickicist!

65 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:08:16pm

Finally went atop the Eiffel tower (didn't manage last summer). The top floor is encased in glass so this dampens the experience somewhat.

66 sattv4u2  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:08:19pm

re: #63 Cathartic Expression

Our four weapons are fear, surprise, sarcasm, irony and big pointy teeth.

But no sticks.

Nobody told us there was going to be math!

67 sattv4u2  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:09:06pm

re: #65 May Day! May Day!

Finally went atop the Eiffel tower (didn't manage last summer). The top floor is encased in glass so this dampens the experience somewhat.

Why ,,, were you planning to jump??
/
((with a stick in your hand,,,a SHARP stick??))

68 Targetpractice  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:09:31pm

re: #58 Cathartic Expression

Our three weapons are fear, surprise, sarcasm and irony.

And an almost fanatical devotion to Charles. Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.

/

69 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:10:00pm

re: #67 sattv4u2

Why ,,, were you planning to jump??
/
((with a stick in your hand,,,a SHARP stick??))

I'm less ambitious than you, spitting is all I had in mind,.///

70 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:10:54pm

re: #66 sattv4u2

Nobody told us there was going to be math!

You don't count.

71 freetoken  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:11:38pm

re: #56 Charles Johnson

Just upgraded to the latest Chrome (19.0.1084.46), restarted the app... and I'm still loading the Flash version of the mp3 player.

72 sattv4u2  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:12:27pm

re: #70 Cathartic Expression

You don't count.

Yes I do

Watch

one
two
three
four ,,,
ummm,,

73 RogueOne  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:13:15pm

re: #65 May Day! May Day!

Finally went atop the Eiffel tower (didn't manage last summer). The top floor is encased in glass so this dampens the experience somewhat.

Don't jump dude. I still love you.

74 Kragar  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:13:25pm

Mat Staver explains how Sir Isaac Newton was only able to "discover things" because he believed in a monotheistic god.

That is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

75 sattv4u2  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:13:54pm

re: #73 RogueOne

Don't jump dude. I still love you.

Well,,, Paris IS for lovers!!!!

76 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:14:25pm

re: #35 jaunte

The abortion that Mitt doesn’t talk about anymore

Whoa. Debate moderators take note. (I can hope)

77 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:15:01pm

re: #73 RogueOne

Don't jump dude. I still love you.

As long as it's platonic.../

78 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:16:24pm

re: #57 freetoken

Yup, but I'm still on an old version of OSX, so I'm not sure if the Chrome browser is thusly limited.

Oh yeah, 10.5 - I think I remember hearing something about Chrome not supporting MP3 in OS X Leopard. That could be it.

79 Targetpractice  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:18:04pm

re: #74 Kragar

Mat Staver explains how Sir Isaac Newton was only able to "discover things" because he believed in a monotheistic god.

[Embedded content] That is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

All good gamers know that Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest son of a bitch in space.

//

80 sattv4u2  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:18:24pm

re: #79 Targetpractice

All good gamers know that Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest son of a bitch in space.

//

I love his figs!

81 sattv4u2  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:18:39pm

re: #79 Targetpractice

re: #80 sattv4u2

I love his figs!

NTTAWWT!!!

82 RogueOne  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:20:16pm

re: #77 May Day! May Day!

As long as it's platonic.../

We can't get married anyway. Turns out I was wrong last week but I blame MSNBC for tricking me. It is illegal to marry in this state. I didn't know because they passed it while I was gone. And since people who shack up go straight to hell we can't do that either, it would break my mothers heart. Plus, I don't think my wife would let me.

83 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:20:59pm
84 ProGunLiberal  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:21:19pm

re: #74 Kragar

Once upon a time, you could be religious, and also be scientific. Hell, more than a few scientists may have been driven by their faiths.

Then the Short Bus Brigades started showing up.

85 sattv4u2  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:21:32pm

re: #82 RogueOne

Plus, I don't think my wife would let me.

Knowing you,,, knowing Sregey,,,, your wife would probably endorse a swap!!!
//

86 Targetpractice  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:21:57pm

re: #83 Charles Johnson

The Washington Free Beacon is a wingnut hoot, by the way: THE SOROS SUMMIT - FREE BEACON EXCLUSIVE: INSIDE THE SECRET MIAMI MEETING OF GEORGE SOROS’S LIBERAL CONSPIRACY.

What was discussed at this meeting? Is it time to start rounding up the conservatives to ship them off to the FEMA camps? Or paint the Washington Monument red? Inquiring minds simply must know!

///

87 freetoken  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:22:24pm

re: #78 Charles Johnson

Thanks. I suppose I should upgrade to the newer OSX... but besides my perpetual laziness I don't want to lose some old software.

88 RogueOne  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:23:00pm

re: #85 sattv4u2

Plus, I don't think my wife would let me.

Knowing you,,, knowing Sregey,,, your wife would probably endorse a swap!!!
//

She and her sister left for her folks house last friday. It's been great! Really, really, quiet. Honestly though I'm already starting to get a little bored.

89 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:23:01pm

Yeah, with OS X 10.7 I'm definitely getting the HTML5 player - I right-clicked and used 'Inspect Element' to double check. No Flash.

90 dragonfire1981  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:24:36pm
91 sattv4u2  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:24:48pm

re: #88 RogueOne

She and her sister left for her folks house last friday. It's been great! Really, really, quiet. Honestly though I'm already starting to get a little bored.

Walking around the house in only your skivvies ,,,, empty pizza boxes strewn about ,,, TV's in every room left on ,,, all toilet seats left up !!

92 freetoken  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:25:03pm

re: #89 Charles Johnson

Perhaps someday I'll move onto the new OS. I know it has all sorts of bells and whistle.

93 freetoken  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:26:15pm

re: #83 Charles Johnson

The Washington Free Beacon is a wingnut hoot, by the way: THE SOROS SUMMIT - FREE BEACON EXCLUSIVE: INSIDE THE SECRET MIAMI MEETING OF GEORGE SOROS’S LIBERAL CONSPIRACY.

The Center for American Progress (CAP), a liberal think tank with deep ties to the Obama administration, was also heavily represented. CAP president Neera Tanden joined former Rep. Tom Perriello (D., Va.), president and CEO of the CAP Action Fund, and Van Jones, a senior fellow and former White House green jobs adviser, among others.

VANJONES!!

Anyway, I don't see that the meeting is really all the secretive. After all, if anybody can find out who is attending, is it really secret?

94 Targetpractice  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:26:58pm

re: #90 dragonfire1981

*sigh*

Virginia GOP goes full on homophobe, denies judgeship to gay prosecutor

Meanwhile, McDonnell may be in danger of taking himself out of the running for VP:

Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell Evolves On Gay Judges

Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell (R), a shortlist contender to be Mitt Romney’s vice president who is beloved among conservatives, appears to be the latest prominent politician to “evolve” on gay-rights issues. In McDonnell’s case, the shift involves his previous stance that a gay judicial nominee might be disqualified from the bench due to a belief that discrimination against otherwise qualified LGBT candidates is improper.

95 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:27:08pm

re: #88 RogueOne

She and her sister left for her folks house last friday. It's been great! Really, really, quiet. Honestly though I'm already starting to get a little bored.

Should I change my tickets?//

96 RogueOne  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:27:19pm

re: #91 sattv4u2

Showering with the door open. Her little sister moves in and suddenly I'm not allowed to do that anymore

97 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:28:24pm

re: #96 RogueOne

Showering with the door open. Her little sister moves in and suddenly I'm not allowed to do that anymore

If I were you I'd go on strike.

98 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:28:32pm

re: #60 Conversation Kills

And big pointy teeth.

But what if someone attacks you with a piece of fresh fruit! Are you trained to handle that situation?

99 sattv4u2  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:28:40pm

re: #96 RogueOne

Showering with the door open. Her little sister moves in and suddenly I'm not allowed to do that anymore

Doesn't the floor get wet that way!?!?!

100 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:28:50pm

re: #88 RogueOne

She and her sister left for her folks house last friday. It's been great! Really, really, quiet. Honestly though I'm already starting to get a little bored.

How's the kitchen remod going????

101 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:29:16pm

re: #99 sattv4u2

Doesn't the floor get wet that way!?!?!

That's what socks are for.

102 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:29:25pm

Firefox, though is a pain - it doesn't play MP3 audio with native HTML5. Firefox wants to see an Ogg Vorbis audio file instead.

So Firefox users will see the Flash player for any embedded MP3s in comments.

There's a way to use both MP3 and OGG files in an HTML5 <audio> tag, but you'd have to supply both URLs. I actually did this for the audio I posted of that Alternet interview - used Audacity to export an Ogg Vorbis file, and the HTML5 code will use either one as appropriate.

103 RogueOne  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:30:05pm

re: #95 May Day! May Day!

Should I change my tickets?//

Indy is a lot of things but Paris it ain't.

104 sattv4u2  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:30:51pm

re: #101 Conversation Kills

That's what socks are for.

What do your puppets have to do with Rogues shower habits??

Wait ,,, Idonwannaknow!!!

105 RogueOne  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:34:21pm

re: #100 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

How's the kitchen remod going???

Went and got the paint, came home and took the cabinet doors off, and then ran into a large problem which necessitates getting permission before I do anything else. Half the paper is off one wall and no cabinets. My wife is going to love me when she gets home.

106 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:37:48pm

Not at all in favor of Zimmerman possibly facing the death penalty, I suppose that maybe there is major further evidence that we are not privy to yet, but with what we know so far this seems like an extreme over-reaction to the crime. (and yes I do believe it was a crime, at the very least he should be charged with manslaughter (by act) and at worst second degree murder according to Florida law.) With what we know so far I see very little if any evidence in support of a prosecutable hate crime.

Then again I oppose the death penalty in all cases, period. So perhaps you have to take my opinion with a grain or two of salt in regards to this case or any other where people start talking about handing out a death sentence..

107 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:38:29pm

re: #105 RogueOne

Went and got the paint, came home and took the cabinet doors off, and then ran into a large problem which necessitates getting permission before I do anything else. Half the paper is off one wall and no cabinets. My wife is going to love me when she gets home.

Hee. You attempted.

108 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:39:26pm

re: #83 Charles Johnson

The Washington Free Beacon is a wingnut hoot, by the way: THE SOROS SUMMIT - FREE BEACON EXCLUSIVE: INSIDE THE SECRET MIAMI MEETING OF GEORGE SOROS’S LIBERAL CONSPIRACY.

FREE BACON! WHERE?...Oh, damn it, Free Beacon...sigh. :(

109 RogueOne  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:40:48pm

re: #107 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

I had to tell her, I didn't want her coming home to that kind of a surprise. I'm swapping out the stove and dishwasher tomorrow so that will make it a little better on me. It's gone from a fairly minor project to a whole redo. I'm going to have to drywall the entire kitchen. I could choke the asshat who originally did the kitchen work.

110 Only The Lurker Knows  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:40:58pm

re: #105 RogueOne

Should we start preparing your for wake now, or wait until she gets back home?

111 freetoken  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:41:06pm

The kind of bowing of which the wingnuts will approve:


India bows to US pressure, cuts Iran oil import by 11%

112 freetoken  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:42:29pm

Free porn for all:

Judge dismisses piracy suits, says IP address doesn't confirm state

A California judge has dismissed 15 lawsuits against John Does accused of sharing pirated adult movies on BitTorrent, saying the court lacks jurisdiction because the geolocation tools relied on don't always accurately identify the state in which the IP address is located.

[...]

113 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:43:52pm

re: #106 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

Not at all in favor of Zimmerman possibly facing the death penalty, I suppose that maybe there is major further evidence that we are not privy to yet, but with what we know so far this seems like an extreme over-reaction to the crime. (and yes I do believe it was a crime, at the very least he should be charged with manslaughter (by act) and at worst second degree murder according to Florida law.) With what we know so far I see very little if any evidence in support of a prosecutable hate crime.

Then again I oppose the death penalty in all cases period. So perhaps you have to take my opinion with a grain or two of salt in regards to this case or any other where people start talking about handing out a death sentence..

Ya, back to the post at hand. I think they are using death penalty in the headline specifically to inflame. Oh and I bet the usual suspects are in full-on torch mode after reading it. It's the furthest end of punishment that in no way would apply in this case based on what we know.

114 freetoken  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:44:27pm

You just know this is going to be hot on the nut-o-sphere:

Obama's assets valued at between $2.6 million and $8.3 million

115 Targetpractice  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:46:00pm

re: #114 freetoken

You just know this is going to be hot on the nut-o-sphere:

Obama's assets valued at between $2.6 million and $8.3 million

$8.3 million vs. $124 million. Well, obviously Obama is the elitist rich guy who's totally out of touch with the voters.

//

116 RogueOne  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:46:02pm

re: #114 freetoken

Pffft. He'll make twice that next year in speaking fees alone.......

117 ProGunLiberal  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:46:40pm

I like this Advertisement.

Life of Julia

It reminds how big of pigs Romney and Ryan are.

re: #114 freetoken

And Mitt Romney is worth more than many African Nations. Not to mention his other problems.

118 freetoken  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:47:56pm

re: #117 ProGunLiberal

The public doesn't know for sure what Mitt's wealth may be. Even Obama's total is a range based on summing the bin limits on reports.

119 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:49:13pm
120 Targetpractice  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:50:04pm

re: #119 ggt

Tiny Blue Russian

*falls over from diabetic shock*

//

121 RogueOne  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:51:51pm

Time to get back to the dogs. Enjoy your night people!

122 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:55:07pm

Parents Charged after Shaving 12-Year-Old Daughter's Head, Making Her Run Down the Street in Diaper

A Minnesota couple is facing charges after allegedly shaving their 12-year-old daughter's head and forcing her to run up and down the street in a diaper.

Stephanie Ann Broten, 38, and her husband, 34-year-old Darnell Alan Landrum, were each charged in Anoka County Wednesday with one count of malicious punishment.

Landrum is the girl's step-father.

Police arrived Monday evening to find a crowd of 30-50 people watching the girl as she ran in nothing but a diaper and a tank top.

Officers believe the girl had been outside for about a half-hour before a neighbor alerted police.

Police say the girl was "crying and hysterical."

124 ProGunLiberal  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:57:38pm

re: #123 jamesfirecat

My same thought. CPS better get in here.

125 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:57:40pm

re: #122 ggt

Parents Charged after Shaving 12-Year-Old Daughter's Head, Making Her Run Down the Street in Diaper

IIRC, didn't some towns in France shave the heads of women who were cooperative with the Nazi soldiers who occupied their towns --cleaning ladies even?

126 ProGunLiberal  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:59:09pm

re: #125 ggt

That sounds like them and Norway.

127 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 4:59:23pm

re: #123 jamesfirecat

What the fuck is this?

Here is The Young Turks segment on it.

128 Digital Display  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:01:33pm

re: #103 RogueOne

Indy is a lot of things but Paris it ain't.

hey you! I'll be in Indy for the race..Can't wait till fast friday

129 ProGunLiberal  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:05:46pm

re: #122 ggt

This person needs YEARS in prison. I believe in rehab for crimes against property, theft of all sorts.

But crimes against people and humanity? This must be punished harshly. I would have this awful woman do 10+ years for this.

Also, very good neighbor for calling the police. Deserves a medal.

130 freetoken  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:08:13pm

On occasion I have written about the Law of the Sea Treaty (LotS), also called U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), which most nations have signed, and which American institutions from the US Navy to ExxonMobile endorse.

However, the US Senate has steadfastly blocked adopting this treaty, led by the likes Inhofe and his friends.

It's a sign of the truly and deeply entrenched reactionary factions in American polity.

Here's the latest in a long, multi-year attack on UNCLOS:

Accession to U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea Would Expose the U.S. to Baseless Climate Change Lawsuits

It's just a rerun of a long running monologue by the isolationist paranoid right-wing in this country. This type of stuff has gone on for many years, and is just one example in a multi-decades long retrenchment led by paleo-conservatives against engagement in the modern world.

131 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:09:20pm

The Young Turks on Bristol Palin's statement on Gay Marriage.

I love these young people, they give me hope.

132 Gus  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:09:56pm

re: #83 Charles Johnson

The Washington Free Beacon is a wingnut hoot, by the way: THE SOROS SUMMIT - FREE BEACON EXCLUSIVE: INSIDE THE SECRET MIAMI MEETING OF GEORGE SOROS’S LIBERAL CONSPIRACY.

It's like that all the time. Real Pulitzer Prize material right there. Their opening announcement were pretty hilarious too:

Modeling itself on lefty activist internet gadflies such as Center for American Progress/ThinkProgress, TPM, and the HuffPost Politics page, the Center for American Freedom and its journalistic organ, the Washington Free Beacon, will seek to bring the pain to lefties of a certain stripe. Those, who in the words of Beacon editor Matthew Continetti, steep themselves in “inside deals, cronyism cloaked in kind intentions, and {the} out-of-the-mainstream shibboleths of contemporary progressivism and its vehicle, the Democratic Party.” Sound scary, o ye lefties of bad faith? I’d buy a protective cup now, before they’re all sold out.

There was also this:

What would happen, though, if a website covered the left in the same way that the left covers the right? What picture of the world would one have in mind if the morning paper read like the New York Times—but with the subjects of the stories and the assumptions built into the text changed to reflect a conservative, not liberal, worldview? What would happen if the media wolf pack suddenly had to worry about an aerial hunting operation?

You are about to find out. The Washington Free Beacon is here to enter the arena of combat journalism. Our talented staff will add to the chorus of enterprising conservative reporters, publishing original stories, seeking out scoops, and focusing on the myriad connections between money and power in the progressive movement and Obama’s Washington. Our research and war room divisions will supplement that reporting with context, additional materials, and breaking video. At the Beacon, you will find the other half of the story, the half that the elite media have taken such pains to ignore: the inside deals, cronyism cloaked in the public interest, and far-out nostrums of contemporary progressivism and the Democratic Party. At the Beacon, all friends of freedom will find an alternative to the hackneyed spin, routine misstatements, paranoid hyperbole, and insipid folderol of Democratic officials and the liberal gasbags on MSNBC and talk radio. At the Beacon, we follow only one commandment: Do unto them.

And as you very well know, while this seems like it's a parody or humor these knuckleheads are actually serious.

133 freetoken  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:11:30pm

re: #131 ggt

Now that DWTS next season will be an "All Stars" version, bringing back old favorites, there's a chance that Bristol could be back on TV.

Aren't we lucky?

134 Targetpractice  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:13:43pm

It's articles like this that are gonna give the GOP serious heartburn going into the fall:

CHART: Spending, Taxes, And Deficits Are All Lower Today Than When Obama Took Office

135 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:14:37pm

re: #133 freetoken

Now that DWTS next season will be an "All Stars" version, bringing back old favorites, there's a chance that Bristol could be back on TV.

Aren't we lucky?

Well that bullshit about college was just that. Grifter Jr. And America is game for it!

136 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:15:49pm

Fox News Markets to Men and they buy it hook, line and stiletto!

137 Gus  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:17:26pm

re: #132 Gus

It's like that all the time. Real Pulitzer Prize material right there. Their opening announcement were pretty hilarious too:

There was also this:

And as you very well know, while this seems like it's a parody or humor these knuckleheads are actually serious.

Free Beacon is also run by the Center for American Freedom whose chairman is Michael Goldfarb:

Michael Goldfarb—not to be confused with the journalist of the same name—is a neoconservative pundit, activist, and lobbyist whose resume includes working as an editor for the Weekly Standard, serving as an advisor to the Emergency Committee for Israel and the Liz Cheney-led Keep America Safe, and chairing the Center for American Freedom (CAF). Goldfarb has also been the vice president of Orion Strategies—a lobbying firm headed by former John McCain adviser Randy Scheunemann—and was a research associate for the now-defunct Project for the New American Century, a neoconservative letterhead group founded by Robert Kagan and William Kristol that helped spearhead efforts to push for the invasion of Iraq after the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

...

Emergency Committee for Israel

In his capacity as VP of Orion Strategies, Goldfarb served as an adviser to the Emergency Committee for Israel (ECI), a Washington-based advocacy group established in mid-2010 that claims “to provide citizens with the facts they need to be sure that their public officials are supporting a strong US-Israel relationship.”ECI’s first act was to run a controversial attack ad in July 2010 targeting the track record of Senate candidate Rep. Joe Sestak (D-PA) and insinuating that he supported Mideast terrorists.[3]

ECI board members include William Kristol, editor and founder of the Weekly Standard and cofounder of the Foreign Policy Initiative; Rachel Abrams, wife of notorious Iran-Contra veteran Elliott Abrams; and Gary Bauer, a well-know Christian Zionist who leads the lobby groups American Values and Keep Israel Safe and serves on the executive board of John Hagee’s Christians United for Israel. Noah Pollack, a contributor to Commentary and former assistant editor at the Jerusalem-based Shalem Center,is widely reported to have served as the group’s executive director.[4]

Goldfarb confirmed his advisory position at ECI in an email to Salon.com’s Justin Elliott after Inter Press Service writer Eli Clifton tracked the address on the letterhead of an ECI letter to the offices of Orion Strategies.[5] Wrote Goldfarb, “I'm on the record as an adviser to ECI and its [sic] no secret that I work at Orion, where the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq sign is still proudly displayed on the front of the building. ECI will be opening an office next week, but given the urgency of our cause, getting an office sorted out seemed less pressing than exposing Joe Sestak's anti-Israel record."[6]

138 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:19:39pm

re: #137 Gus

Ugh

139 jaunte  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:19:50pm

re: #132 Gus

Out-of-the-mainstream shibboleths?

140 Gus  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:21:03pm

re: #139 jaunte

Out-of-the-mainstream shibboleths?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

141 jaunte  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:21:17pm

You can't tell the Ephraimites from the Gileadites without a shibboleth.

142 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:24:20pm
143 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:25:59pm

shib·bo·leth noun ˈshi-bə-ləth also -ˌleth

Definition of SHIBBOLETH

1 a : a word or saying used by adherents of a party, sect, or belief and usually regarded by others as empty of real meaning
b : a widely held belief
c : truism, platitude
2 a : a use of language regarded as distinctive of a particular group
b : a custom or usage regarded as distinguishing one group from others

144 Gus  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:26:32pm

More Free Beacon fun here:

Why Conservatives Can't Do Journalism
January 06, 2012 10:30 am ET by Eric Boehlert

...

So no, Goldfarb's not exactly a go-to type of guy if you're serious about creating a new site for political journalism. But the truth is the conservative movement today doesn't have leaders who know much of anything about journalism, and even fewer who respect it and indicate they want to practice it. Remember when Tucker Carlson launched Daily Caller and pledged it would produce top-shelf journalism? So much for that hollow promise.

Instead, the right-wing's online Noise Machine today is populated by people like Andrew Breitbart and Dana Loesch who run websites that crank out borderline incoherent bouts of 'journalism' that inevitably whip up their Obama-hating readers and have zero impact on the national discussion. In fact, today's right-wing blogosphere supports countless Obama-hating websites that busy themselves churning out mindless, and often fabricated, attacks on the First Family.

It's juvenile name-calling that makes some people feel good about how much they abhor Democrats. (aka Obama Derangement Syndrome.) But it's not journalism. Not by a long shot. And until partisans on the right figure that out they're destined to lose ground to progressives, and the Center for American Freedom will be just another failed effort to play catch-up.

145 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:26:47pm

re: #119 ggt

Tiny Blue Russian

Commie Feline Overlord!

146 darthstar  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:29:41pm
147 ProGunLiberal  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:31:29pm

re: #142 ggt

Updinged and Faved

148 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:35:59pm

Young Turks on Limbaugh on Obama Gay Marriage.

I love their use of the term "glass houses".

"His listeners are idiots"

LOL

149 Targetpractice  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:38:49pm

Yeah, he's walking free on this one:

ABC News Exclusive: Zimmerman Medical Report Shows Broken Nose, Lacerations After Trayvon Martin Shooting

A medical report compiled by the family physician of accused Trayvon Martin murderer George Zimmerman and obtained exclusively by ABC News found that Zimmerman was diagnosed with a "closed fracture" of his nose, a pair of black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head and a minor back injury the day after he fatally shot Martin during an alleged altercation.

150 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:40:50pm

re: #149 Targetpractice

Yeah, he's walking free on this one:

ABC News Exclusive: Zimmerman Medical Report Shows Broken Nose, Lacerations After Trayvon Martin Shooting

Why did he get out of the truck?

I think he instigated it the minute he put his foot on the pavement.

151 Obdicut  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:40:59pm

re: #149 Targetpractice

I dunno if people are ready to set the precedent that that level of injury is answerable with gunfire. I really hope not.

152 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:42:13pm

re: #151 Obdicut

I dunno if people are ready to set the precedent that that level of injury is answerable with gunfire. I really hope not.

b,b,b,b,but it was A BLACK KID in a HOODIE!

153 Targetpractice  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:43:23pm

re: #151 Obdicut

I dunno if people are ready to set the precedent that that level of injury is answerable with gunfire. I really hope not.

Precedent in Florida's been set, all you have to do is say "The guy took a swing at me" and a judge will let you walk free. Unless the state's sitting on evidence that proves Zimmerman began the altercation, he's got too much evidence in favor of his version of events.

154 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:43:28pm

re: #151 Obdicut

I dunno if people are ready to set the precedent that that level of injury is answerable with gunfire. I really hope not.

It's relative, if I received that kind of beating, it would definitely be answerable with gunfire --a guy who wants to be a cop --young, strong and healthy?

155 freetoken  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:43:58pm

re: #150 ggt

Zimmerman's lawyer will simply make the case that Zimmerman was defending himself against the brutality of Martin, as the wounds show.

This is the problem with proving murder, no? All the defense has to do is convince some jury member that Zimmerman wasn't trying to kill Martin, simply that he was afraid of Martin and trying to defend himself.

156 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:44:01pm

re: #153 Targetpractice

Precedent in Florida's been set, all you have to do is say "The guy took a swing at me" and a judge will let you walk free. Unless the state's sitting on evidence that proves Zimmerman began the altercation, he's got too much evidence in favor of his version of events.

There was a post earlier about new evidence . . .

157 Targetpractice  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:44:55pm

re: #150 ggt

Why did he get out of the truck?

I think he instigated it the minute he put his foot on the pavement.

Nothing illegal about getting out of your vehicle and confronting someone, especially if they respond by kicking your ass. I won't argue that he was right in getting out of his truck, but if Trayvon really did throw the first punch and was beating him black and blue, then the law stipulates that Zimmerman opening fire was in self-defense.

158 palomino  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:45:26pm

re: #150 ggt

Why did he get out of the truck?

I think he instigated it the minute he put his foot on the pavement.

Exactly. Sane, law abiding people don't get out of their cars with loaded guns to pursue "suspects" they haven't even witnessed commit a crime.

I've got little sympathy for Zim. And a lot of contempt for the millions of yahoos who have reflexively taken his side, even made him a sort of hero. They completely ignore the fact that he instigated this by doing something most of us would agree was dangerous and overzealous, if not necessarily a crime under FL law.

159 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:45:35pm

re: #146 darthstar

Hell yeah!!

160 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:45:46pm

re: #149 Targetpractice

Yeah, he's walking free on this one:

ABC News Exclusive: Zimmerman Medical Report Shows Broken Nose, Lacerations After Trayvon Martin Shooting

How the f*** does he have that and it not show up on the video? I mean do black eyes take a long time to show up? (Never gotten one myself)

161 Obdicut  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:46:18pm

re: #154 ggt

It's relative, if I received that kind of beating, it would definitely be answerable with gunfire --a guy who wants to be a cop --young, strong and healthy?

Yes, it's quite relative. If someone is comparatively obviously unable to defend themselves with lesser means, then gunfire is a lot more excuseable. If someone starts hitting a grandma who can't even get up because her arthritis is bad, and she's got a gun, she can fire. Beating on those who are obviously helpless to fight back is, to me, an aggravating circumstance.

But if you manage to get into a fight with someone-- which would be the most charitable way of describing Zimmerman stalking Trayvon-- and you start getting some punches, I don't think you should be allowed to blow the other guy away.

162 Targetpractice  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:46:47pm

re: #160 jamesfirecat

How the f*** does he have that and it not show up on the video? I mean do black eyes take a long time to show up? (Never gotten one myself)

Depends on the person, but the swelling and bruising can take up to hours after the fight to become evident.

163 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:47:06pm

re: #150 ggt

Why did he get out of the truck?

I think he instigated it the minute he put his foot on the pavement.

A kid fought for his life. And lost.

164 Obdicut  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:47:16pm

re: #160 jamesfirecat

How the f*** does he have that and it not show up on the video? I mean do black eyes take a long time to show up? (Never gotten one myself)

Yeah, black eyes can take a day to show up. you can also get black eyes very easily from a simple punch to the nose. They're very trivial injuries.

165 Gus  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:47:38pm

Ugh. My favorite topic.

166 palomino  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:48:27pm

re: #157 Targetpractice

Nothing illegal about getting out of your vehicle and confronting someone, especially if they respond by kicking your ass. I won't argue that he was right in getting out of his truck, but if Trayvon really did throw the first punch and was beating him black and blue, then the law stipulates that Zimmerman opening fire was in self-defense.

Nobody is saying it's illegal to get out of your car in this situation. Rather that it should be illegal to get out of your car with a loaded weapon to follow someone you haven't even seen commit a crime.

Huge difference.

167 freetoken  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:48:30pm
168 Targetpractice  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:49:12pm

re: #155 freetoken

Zimmerman's lawyer will simply make the case that Zimmerman was defending himself against the brutality of Martin, as the wounds show.

This is the problem with proving murder, no? All the defense has to do is convince some jury member that Zimmerman wasn't trying to kill Martin, simply that he was afraid of Martin and trying to defend himself.

It's not even that. All the defense has to do with SYG laws in place is convince a judge that Zimmerman "reasonably believed" that he was in danger of grave bodily injury or even death. Showing a medical report listing injuries that are somewhat consistent with GZ's story of events pretty much puts the prosecution in a pickle.

169 Targetpractice  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:50:21pm

re: #166 palomino

Nobody is saying it's illegal to get out of your car in this situation. Rather that it should be illegal to get out of your car with a loaded weapon to follow someone you haven't even seen commit a crime.

Huge difference.

Not really. Unless it can be shown he was brandishing his gun or indicated that he was armed to Martin in an effort to force him to comply, then the fact that he was armed is irrelevant.

170 freetoken  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:50:55pm

re: #168 Targetpractice

Does this indicate that the FBI investigating a hate crime might already be a concession on the part of the feds that Zimmerman will walk free on the state charges, so they will try to convict him on a federal statue in which SYG won't apply?

171 Simply Sarah  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:52:19pm

re: #170 freetoken

Does this indicate that the FBI investigating a hate crime might already be a concession on the part of the feds that Zimmerman will walk free on the state charges, so they will try to convict him on a federal statue in which SYG won't apply?

Well, that may not be the logic behind it, but it certainly seems like it would have the effect of bypassing the mess that is SYG.

172 Targetpractice  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:53:20pm

re: #170 freetoken

Does this indicate that the FBI investigating a hate crime might already be a concession on the part of the feds that Zimmerman will walk free on the state charges, so they will try to convict him on a federal statue in which SYG won't apply?

Theoretically, but so far all I've seen on that front is circumstantial, i.e. a pattern that could be construed as racist. His lawyer could just as easily argue that his being focused on young black men in the neighborhood has as much to do with the reports of crime in the area than any racist beliefs.

173 palomino  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:53:27pm

re: #169 Targetpractice

Not really. Unless it can be shown he was brandishing his gun or indicated that he was armed to Martin in an effort to force him to comply, then the fact that he was armed is irrelevant.

So you think he was packing heat for no particular reason...not playing pretend cop on his neighborhood watch?

You have no problem with self-appointed watchmen playing vigilante?

174 freetoken  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:54:47pm
175 Targetpractice  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:54:52pm

re: #173 palomino

So you think he was packing heat for no particular reason...not playing pretend cop on his neighborhood watch?

You have no problem with self-appointed watchmen playing vigilante?

I'm playing devil's advocate, I'm not a GZ supporter, so back down. I'm arguing the law as it stands, not my personal views on the matter.

176 palomino  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:55:04pm

Is there anyone here who has ever gotten out of their car with a loaded weapon in order to pursue a "suspect" they had not even seen commit a crime?

Is there anyone here who thinks doing something like that is rational behavior under the circumstances we have here?

177 sattv4u2  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:55:49pm

re: #173 palomino

You have no problem with self-appointed watchmen playing vigilante?

Yup. Thats exactly what Target said ,,, except for where/ how he didn't!

178 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:55:51pm

I just hate the dichotomy (correct word?) of the whole thing. Kids are taught to fear strangers out to get them. Kid reacts accordingly and he is the victim/instigator.

179 Simply Sarah  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:56:31pm

re: #174 freetoken

Apple inspired sex toys?

Can a Better Vibrator Inspire an Age of Great American Sex?

Oh please. I'm pretty damn happy with what's available right now. ;-)

180 palomino  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:56:33pm

re: #175 Targetpractice

I'm playing devil's advocate, I'm not a GZ supporter, so back down. I'm arguing the law as it stands, not my personal views on the matter.

Who the hell are you to tell me to back down?//

The internet is like FL, so I will stand my ground.////////

181 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:56:44pm

re: #175 Targetpractice

I'm playing devil's advocate, I'm not a GZ supporter, so back down. I'm arguing the law as it stands, not my personal views on the matter.

Which is yet more proof why SYG needs to go.

182 sattv4u2  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:57:25pm

re: #180 palomino

Who the hell are you to tell me to back down?//

The internet is like FL, so I will stand my ground.///

Now that right there was funny ,,, I don't care who you are!!!
//(h/t Larry The Cable Guy)

183 palomino  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:57:36pm

re: #177 sattv4u2

You have no problem with self-appointed watchmen playing vigilante?

Yup. Thats exactly what Target said ,,, except for where/ how he didn't!

Relax, it was just a question. I didn't accuse him of anything...are you his defense attorney?/////

184 sattv4u2  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:58:09pm

re: #183 palomino

Relax, it was just a question. I didn't accuse him of anything...are you his defense attorney?

No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night

185 Gus  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:58:18pm
186 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:58:52pm

Another thing that makes me sick about this case, at least on the internets (and with my boss, newly discovered to be a RWNJ) it's falling along freakin party lines!!!

187 Targetpractice  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:58:54pm

re: #181 jamesfirecat

Which is yet more proof why SYG needs to go.

Totally. As the law stands right now, Zimmerman very likely will walk because he did nothing that illegal. Or, rather, the state can't prove he did anything illegal.

188 palomino  Tue, May 15, 2012 5:59:57pm

re: #184 sattv4u2

No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night

They're not so bad. In TX, they give you free waffles in the shape of...TEXAS!

189 austin_blue  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:00:04pm

re: #20 Atlas Fails

Wow, this is kind of a shame. I'm no apologist for Zimmerman, but I hate to see the state flex its muscle by threatening a citizen with death. It's just so...base.

As opposed to actually having a citizen killed? But I agree, Zimmerman will not and never should be executed.

However, while his crime may not rise to the level of murder or a hate crime, he is certainly guilty of manslaughter. Stand Your Ground does *not* mean Shoot Your Gun when another person is Standing His Ground and punches you in the mouth because *he* feels that you after his cherry ass.

Ten years without parole will educate Mr. Zimmerman to never get near a gun again. He's not competent to intelligently handle one.

190 Only The Lurker Knows  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:00:22pm

re: #123 jamesfirecat

What the fuck is this?

RWNG Discipline, at its finest.

Assholes.

191 palomino  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:02:17pm

re: #187 Targetpractice

Totally. As the law stands right now, Zimmerman very likely will walk because he did nothing that illegal. Or, rather, the state can't prove he did anything illegal.

But in some states he could be prosecuted for, if not murder, at least something, right? Not all states are as dumb as FL, I hope.

192 sattv4u2  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:02:50pm

re: #188 palomino

They're not so bad. In TX, they give you free waffles in the shape of...TEXAS!

{burp}

193 Targetpractice  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:02:57pm

re: #191 palomino

But in some states he could be prosecuted for, if not murder, at least something, right? Not all states are as dumb as FL, I hope.

IIRC, 23 states are as dumb, having passing SYG laws of their own.

194 palomino  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:04:55pm

re: #193 Targetpractice

IIRC, 23 states are as dumb, having passing SYG laws of their own.

Actually, that's not so bad...54% of the country is not (yet) as dumb as FL, which has now supplanted both CA and TX as the weirdest most screwed up state.

195 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:07:40pm

re: #193 Targetpractice

IIRC, 23 states are as dumb, having passing SYG laws of their own.

Fear & irresponsible gun ownership. Uh, also politicians bought & paid for by the NRA.

196 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:07:59pm
197 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:08:05pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

I think the only interesting clue there is that there's video from the clubhouse. It may or may not back up Zimmerman's story.

We're going to have to wait for the SYG hearing.

198 Decatur Deb  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:09:54pm

re: #191 palomino

But in some states he could be prosecuted for, if not murder, at least something, right? Not all states are as dumb as FL, I hope.

Don't sell Florida short. Back in the Golden Age of Lynching, FL was always a contender. For some periods it beat the rest of the South per capita. I especially note Jim Mobeley's offense, "in company of a White woman":

[Link: rootsweb.ancestry.com...]

199 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:10:12pm

re: #197 Dark_Falcon

We're going to have to wait for the SYG hearing.

What do you mean by that DF?

200 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:12:26pm

re: #198 Decatur Deb

Don't sell Florida short. Back in the Golden Age of Lynching, FL was always a contender. For some periods it beat the rest of the South per capita. I especially note jim Mobeley's offense, "in company of a White woman":

[Link: rootsweb.ancestry.com...]

Hate up dinging that. Check where Madison Co. is.

201 austin_blue  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:12:33pm

re: #194 palomino

Actually, that's not so bad...54% of the country is not (yet) as dumb as FL, which has now supplanted both CA and TX as the weirdest most screwed up state.

Eh, eh, eh..We've already got electronic vaginal rape encoded in law.

202 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:12:55pm

Party lines

203 sattv4u2  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:14:38pm

re: #202 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Party lines

We had one of those when i was a kid

good ole Ma Bell!!!

204 jaunte  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:14:55pm

Watching Maddow; Frank Vandersloot is such an incredible liar. Why does Romney attract these people?...

205 palomino  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:14:58pm

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the part that galls me the most is the huge outpouring of support and donations for Zimmerman, as if he somehow struck a blow for goodness and law and order by his actions. At best what he did was dangerous and irresponsible, and simply not the kind of thing that sane and law abiding people do.

And yet he now has millions of defenders and admirers. Something upside down, even perverse, about that.

206 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:15:45pm

re: #204 jaunte

Watching Maddow; Frank Vandersloot is such an incredible liar. Why does Romney attract these people?...

Ocram's Razor suggests Birds of a Feather.

207 austin_blue  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:16:04pm

re: #204 jaunte

Watching Maddow; Frank Vandersloot is such an incredible liar. Why does Romney attract these people?...

He has to. Without liars, he's dead meat in November. There's not much there, there.

208 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:16:11pm

re: #205 palomino

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the part that galls me the most is the huge outpouring of support and donations for Zimmerman, as if he somehow struck a blow for goodness and law and order by his actions. At best what he did was dangerous and irresponsible, and simply not the kind of thing that sane and law abiding people do.

And yet he now has millions of defenders and admirers. Something upside down, even perverse, about that.

Exactly. It's scary actually.

209 palomino  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:16:31pm

re: #201 austin_blue

Eh, eh, eh..We've already got electronic vaginal rape encoded in law.

I've spent half my life in Texas, the other half in California. I just want the opportunity, for once in my life, to feel like there's a more messed up state than my home state.

210 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:16:49pm

re: #199 jamesfirecat

What do you mean by that DF?

Prior to any full trial, as CNN explained it, there will be a hearing on whether Zimmerman's claim of self-defense has enough merit to obviate the need for a trial. In this hearing, the state needs to do nothing more than make a prima facia case of Zimmerman's guilt. Zimmerman's attorney must show a preponderance of the available evidence favors the conclusion that Zimmerman acted in self-defense. If this can be shown, then the case is dismissed. If not, then the case proceeds to trial and the hurdle a self-defense claim needs to clear becomes somewhat higher.

212 austin_blue  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:18:09pm

re: #209 palomino

I've spent half my life in Texas, the other half in California. I just want the opportunity, for once in my life, to feel like there's a more messed up state than my home state.

It used to be "Thank God for Mississippi!".

Not so much anymore.

213 Decatur Deb  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:18:20pm

re: #200 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Hate up dinging that. Check where Madison Co. is.

Drive through it on my way to my kid's place.

214 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:18:33pm

re: #205 palomino

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the part that galls me the most is the huge outpouring of support and donations for Zimmerman, as if he somehow struck a blow for goodness and law and order by his actions. At best what he did was dangerous and irresponsible, and simply not the kind of thing that sane and law abiding people do.

And yet he now has millions of defenders and admirers. Something upside down, even perverse, about that.

The kid was innocent. And now dead. These folks are LYING about law & order. They are cheering profiling with no recourse.

215 Gus  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:20:01pm

re: #204 jaunte

Watching Maddow; Frank Vandersloot is such an incredible liar. Why does Romney attract these people?...

Republicants

216 palomino  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:20:10pm

re: #211 Gus

'No problem with coat hanger abortions' - So says Mississippi state Representative Bubba Carpenter

Yeah, no problem...except the woman dies quite often in such scenarios. Of course she's going to hell anyway for having the abortion, so it just expedites things.

I take it all back, Miss. is the most fucked up state. NC Gov. Perdue was right when she expressed her embarrassment that her state looked like Miss. on the day of the Amendment 1 vote.

217 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:21:35pm

re: #174 freetoken

Apple inspired sex toys?

Can a Better Vibrator Inspire an Age of Great American Sex?

For some reason women keep trying to teach me how to vibrate. I feel like they're viewing me as just a sexual object.

218 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:22:10pm

re: #210 Dark_Falcon

Prior to any full trial, as CNN explained it, there will be a hearing on whether Zimmerman's claim of self-defense has enough merit to obviate the need for a trial. In this hearing, the state needs to do nothing more than make a prima facia case of Zimmerman's guilt. Zimmerman's attorney must show a preponderance of the available evidence favors the conclusion that Zimmerman acted in self-defense. If this can be shown, then the case is dismissed. If not, then the case proceeds to trial and the hurdle a self-defense claim needs to clear becomes somewhat higher.

Ah okay gotcha sorry that makes perfect sense.

219 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:23:10pm

re: #211 Gus

'No problem with coat hanger abortions' - So says Mississippi state Representative Bubba Carpenter

Once again... the F***? Any man who says something like this should be forced to get his next prostate exam with a coat hanger!

220 ProGunLiberal  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:23:47pm

re: #206 jamesfirecat

It's also because Romney has no real personality.

To use a Kingdom Hearts Analogy, he is like an asshole version of Xion. Except Xion over time DID gain a personality. Romney just remains an inhuman puppet.

221 jaunte  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:24:16pm

re: #219 jamesfirecat

He's a pro-deather.

222 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:26:23pm

re: #218 jamesfirecat

Ah okay gotcha sorry that makes perfect sense.

Don't worry, James. It was only legal analysis.

But let me use that to ask something a bit more broad: Everyone, I know that some legal cases that get discussed here arouse strong emotions. But please, do give people leeway to look at what the law is in a case and what it requires. Be a little less quick to judge the motives of others posters. If this is to remain a fact-based blog, then honest analysis must remain respected.

223 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:26:41pm

re: #220 ProGunLiberal

It's also because Romney has no real personality.

To use a Kingdom Hearts Analogy, he is like an asshole version of Xion. Except Xion over time DID gain a personality. Romney just remains an inhuman puppet.

The worst thing about Romney is that he doesn't even seem to be enjoying himself. What's the point of selling your soul to the far right wing if you can't even have fun with it?

224 ProGunLiberal  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:27:50pm

re: #223 jamesfirecat

Because there is only one thing he cares about:

Money. Well, that and Mormonism, but I have my thoughts on Mormonism because of History, Theology, Civil Rights, and Politics.

225 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:28:26pm

re: #216 palomino

Yeah, no problem...except the woman dies quite often in such scenarios. Of course she's going to hell anyway for having the abortion, so it just expedites things.

I take it all back, Miss. is the most fucked up state. NC Gov. Perdue was right when she expressed her embarrassment that her state looked like Miss. on the day of the Amendment 1 vote.

Please see comment way above: salon.com has debate of Romney & kennedy where he speaks of a relative who DIED from botched illegal abortion. That's where his moms and his previous Planned Parenthood support came from.

226 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:28:45pm

re: #224 ProGunLiberal

Because there is only one thing he cares about:

Money. Well, that and Mormonism, but I have my thoughts on Mormonism because of History, Theology, Civil Rights, and Politics.

He could at least give a sense that he has fun being a plutocrat though like Donald Trump.

Poor Mitt Romney you feel like he'll be genuinely crushed spiritually if he doesn't win....

227 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:29:15pm

re: #217 Conversation Kills

For some reason women keep trying to teach me how to vibrate. I feel like they're viewing me as just a sexual object.

You'll get it before you die.

228 Targetpractice  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:30:45pm

re: #211 Gus

'No problem with coat hanger abortions' - So says Mississippi state Representative Bubba Carpenter

It's that line of logic that says once something that was once legal is made illegal, then stopping the illegal version is that much easier. My guess is that the next step will be a replay of an earlier tactic we saw, namely forcing police to treat every miscarriage as a potential "murder" and treating the woman as a suspect.

229 Gus  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:30:58pm

Records: Iowa man in Romney video did jail time for assault of a peace officer

Jason Clausen, a Mason City, Iowa man featured in Mitt Romney's new video featuring unemployed people has a lengthy rap sheet and served ten days in jail for "assault on a peace officer," public records show...

230 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:31:18pm

re: #225 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Please see comment way above: salon.com has debate of Romney & kennedy where he speaks of a relative who DIED from botched illegal abortion. That's where his moms and his previous Planned Parenthood support came from.

Attn Debate Mods @CNN @msnbc @nbc @PBS The abortion that Mitt doesn’t talk about anymore - Salon.com salon.com/2011/08/08/mit…

231 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:31:30pm

re: #227 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

You'll get it before you die.

I'm going to down a bucket of coffee and hook myself up to a V8 distributor.

232 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:31:36pm

re: #228 Targetpractice

It's that line of logic that says once something that was once legal is made illegal, then stopping the illegal version is that much easier. My guess is that the next step will be a replay of an earlier tactic we saw, namely forcing police to treat every miscarriage as a potential "murder" and treating the woman as a suspect.

I'm sure they'll be able to find the money for that by further cutting taxes for rich people....

233 Gus  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:31:51pm

re: #228 Targetpractice

It's that line of logic that says once something that was once legal is made illegal, then stopping the illegal version is that much easier. My guess is that the next step will be a replay of an earlier tactic we saw, namely forcing police to treat every miscarriage as a potential "murder" and treating the woman as a suspect.

I believe some states already do that.

234 goddamnedfrank  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:32:08pm

re: #210 Dark_Falcon

Prior to any full trial, as CNN explained it, there will be a hearing on whether Zimmerman's claim of self-defense has enough merit to obviate the need for a trial. In this hearing, the state needs to do nothing more than make a prima facia case of Zimmerman's guilt. Zimmerman's attorney must show a preponderance of the available evidence favors the conclusion that Zimmerman acted in self-defense. If this can be shown, then the case is dismissed. If not, then the case proceeds to trial and the hurdle a self-defense claim needs to clear becomes somewhat higher.

Under SYG the only real issue at play is the reasonableness of Zimmerman's belief that the use of deadly force was necessary to prevent his own death, great bodily injury, or becoming the victim of forcible felony. In other words Zimmerman doesn't actually have to have acted in self defense, as long as his beliefs in the moment are deemed reasonable, which it should go without saying is a highly subjective assessment. This is one of the many problems with the SYG law, that immunity is based in large part on distilling down and attempting to judge nebulous things like momentary beliefs and fears rather than looking at the overall course of action.

235 Gus  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:33:38pm
236 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:33:40pm

re: #230 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Attn Debate Mods @CNN @msnbc @nbc @PBS The abortion that Mitt doesn’t talk about anymore - Salon.com salon.com/2011/08/08/mit…

Frick- here it is: the abortion that Romney no longer talks about

[Link: www.salon.com...]

This is pretty big

237 Decatur Deb  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:33:42pm
238 MittDoesNotCompute  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:33:51pm

re: #185 Gus

[Embedded content]

Why is Ronald Rodgers still employed as Pardon Attorney after something like this? A serious miscarriage of justice here, from tip to tail...

239 Gus  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:35:19pm

re: #238 Gitarzan

Why is Ronald Rodgers still employed as Pardon Attorney after something like this? A serious miscarriage of justice here, from tip to tail...

Can you believe that? 3 life sentences for a cocaine deal? No parole either. Nothing. Unless he gets a pardon he'll die in prison. First offense. Meanwhile that other guy walked.

240 jaunte  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:35:41pm
241 Targetpractice  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:37:06pm

re: #234 goddamnedfrank

Under SYG the only real issue at play is the reasonableness of Zimmerman's belief that the use of deadly force was necessary to prevent his own death, great bodily injury, or becoming the victim of forcible felony. In other words Zimmerman doesn't actually have to have acted in self defense, as long as his beliefs in the moment are deemed reasonable, which it should go without saying is a highly subjective assessment. This is one of the many problems with the SYG law, that immunity is based in large part on distilling down and attempting to judge nebulous things like momentary beliefs and fears rather than looking at the overall course of action.

And that's why it's such a joke, because rather than going to trial and making the defense prove self-defense, it goes to pre-trial where the prosecution has to prove to a judge that there's no way that GZ could have "reasonably believed" his life was in danger. As we've seen in other cases in FL, that can be an insurmountable wall.

242 goddamnedfrank  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:37:56pm

re: #240 jaunte

With Wisconsin suffering the worst job loss numbers in the nation for the calendar year 2011, Governor Scott Walker promised yesterday that he will reveal newly revised numbers this week that will, effectively, change water into wine on the Wisconsin job front.

And he’s done it just in time for the June 5th recall election.

So, just how is Walker about to turn Wisconsin’s dismal job numbers from lemons to lemonade?

The Governor has simply decided to ignore the system used by the Department of Labor —and every other state in the nation —to measure job growth (or loss) and elected instead to go with a different set of numbers that makes things in Wisconsin look better.

Who knew it could be so easy to solve a jobs crisis?

243 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:38:48pm

re: #241 Targetpractice

And that's why it's such a joke, because rather than going to trial and making the defense prove self-defense, it goes to pre-trial where the prosecution has to prove to a judge that there's no way that GZ could have "reasonably believed" his life was in danger. As we've seen in other cases in FL, that can be an insurmountable wall.

Though apparently you can get out of your car and chase down someone you've been told not to follow, but if you leave a garage with no other exits to go back into your house you'll be found guilty...

SYG is f***ed up from start to finish.

245 Gus  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:40:12pm

re: #244 Gus

Mitt Romney in 2007 Praised Hitler's Policy on Coal

[Embedded content]

You know who else used liquefied coal?

Hitler.

246 MittDoesNotCompute  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:40:14pm

re: #205 palomino

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the part that galls me the most is the huge outpouring of support and donations for Zimmerman, as if he somehow struck a blow for goodness and law and order by his actions. At best what he did was dangerous and irresponsible, and simply not the kind of thing that sane and law abiding people do.

And yet he now has millions of defenders and admirers. Something upside down, even perverse, about that.

And, to an extent, GZ's supporters are winning in their PR efforts to paint Trayvon Martin as a lawless thug, who forfeited his life after GZ basically chased him down and started shit.

Makes me want to vomit...

247 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:40:18pm

re: #234 goddamnedfrank

Under SYG the only real issue at play is the reasonableness of Zimmerman's belief that the use of deadly force was necessary to prevent his own death, great bodily injury, or becoming the victim of forcible felony. In other words Zimmerman doesn't actually have to have acted in self defense, as long as his beliefs in the moment are deemed reasonable, which it should go without saying is a highly subjective assessment. This is one of the many problems with the SYG law, that immunity is based in large part on distilling down and attempting to judge nebulous things like momentary beliefs and fears rather than looking at the overall course of action.

The thing is, Frank, that all self-defense law is ultimately linked to the idea of what a "reasonable person" would believe. As I've previously mentioned, I read in the last 16 months (I forget exactly when) about a would-be burglar who was carrying a device to open locks that looked like a gun at a distance. An armed homeowner shot him dead. The homeowner was not even arrested, much less charged with any crime. He was exonerated because he'd come across a man unlawfully in his house whom he reasonably believed was armed with a pistol. That the criminal was in fact unarmed was irrelevant.

248 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:40:49pm

re: #244 Gus

Mitt Romney in 2007 Praised Hitler's Policy on Coal

[Embedded content]

No politician seeking to get elected should ever start a sentence with "I agree with Hitler on the subject of...."

249 ProGunLiberal  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:41:10pm

re: #226 jamesfirecat

Good point. Though Donald Trump's ego is 90% responsible for Global Warming.

250 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:42:05pm

re: #247 Dark_Falcon

The thing is, Frank, that all self-defense law is ultimately linked to the idea of what a "reasonable person" would believe. As I've previously mentioned, I read in the last 16 months (I forget exactly when) about a would-be burglar who was carrying a device to open locks that looked like a gun at a distance. An armed homeowner shot him dead. The homeowner was not even arrested, much less charged with any crime. He was exonerated because he'd come across a man unlawfully in his house whom he reasonably believed was armed with a pistol. That the criminal was in fact unarmed was irrelevant.

Was he found not guilty under SYG or normal self defense laws?

And if the former, do you think he would have been found guilty without SYG?

251 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:43:17pm

re: #249 ProGunLiberal

Good point. Though Donald Trump's ego is 90% responsible for Global Warming.

I thought it was his hair?

(obligatory, isn't it?)

252 goddamnedfrank  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:46:42pm

re: #247 Dark_Falcon

The thing is, Frank, that all self-defense law is ultimately linked to the idea of what a "reasonable person" would believe. As I've previously mentioned, I read in the last 16 months (I forget exactly when) about a would-be burglar who was carrying a device to open locks that looked like a gun at a distance. An armed homeowner shot him dead. The homeowner was not even arrested, much less charged with any crime. He was exonerated because he'd come across a man unlawfully in his house whom he reasonably believed was armed with a pistol. That the criminal was in fact unarmed was irrelevant.

What you're describing has nothing to do with SYG as it occurred in the guy's home. That's classic castle doctrine.

Vs.

SYG has been used in Florida to free a man who chased a car radio thief for several blocks and stabbed him in the chest when the thief swung a bag of car radios at him. The killer then went home, hid the knife, sold several of the radios that didn't belong to him and lied to the police when first questioned. He only confessed when shown the video of him stabbing the guy.

253 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:47:04pm

re: #247 Dark_Falcon

The thing is, Frank, that all self-defense law is ultimately linked to the idea of what a "reasonable person" would believe. As I've previously mentioned, I read in the last 16 months (I forget exactly when) about a would-be burglar who was carrying a device to open locks that looked like a gun at a distance. An armed homeowner shot him dead. The homeowner was not even arrested, much less charged with any crime. He was exonerated because he'd come across a man unlawfully in his house whom he reasonably believed was armed with a pistol. That the criminal was in fact unarmed was irrelevant.

But what if his decision was WRONG on all points? Trayvon was walking the standard path back to his home. He was not in anyone's house. How do you not differentiate this case, this specific case?

254 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:48:22pm

re: #246 Gitarzan

And, to an extent, GZ's supporters are winning in their PR efforts to paint Trayvon Martin as a lawless thug, who forfeited his life after GZ basically chased him down and started shit.

Makes me want to vomit...

Did you hear about the target range shot owner selling targets in the shape of Martin? Abs-fucking-disgusting. Zimmerman's supporters are what make me lose any sympathy for him. They want to make their guy in to this hero and Martin into this terrible kid.

255 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:49:58pm

re: #250 jamesfirecat

Was he found not guilty under SYG or normal self defense laws?

And if the former, do you think he would have been found guilty without SYG?

Illinois does not have SYG, James. But "duty to retreat" never applies inside one's own home (this is the "Castle Doctrine"). So no, James, the homeowner would not have been charged, with or without SYG. In a case like that, inside one's own home, a reasonable belief that one is under imminent threat is enough. The law does not require that a citizen wait until the threat is proven beyond doubt.

256 jaunte  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:50:38pm

Paging Grover Norquist:

Taxes today are lower than they were on inauguration day 2009. Back in January 2009, the CBO projected that total federal tax revenue that year would amount to 16.5 percent of GDP. This year? 15.8 percent.
[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

257 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:52:33pm

re: #256 jaunte

Paging Grover Norquist:

But that can't be. Obama is taxing us to death.//

258 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:53:31pm

re: #253 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

But what if his decision was WRONG on all points? Trayvon was walking the standard path back to his home. He was not in anyone's house. How do you not differentiate this case, this specific case?

GDF was discussing the issue of 'reasonableness' overall, or so I understood, anyway. I was replying on that point only. There is a good bit to suggest that George Zimmerman acted unreasonably. It also possible that the judge will rule his getting out of the truck to go looking for Martin constitutes "looking for trouble", and thus no claim of self-defense can be made at all. But that will be decided at a formal hearing which has yet to happen.

259 Buck  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:55:03pm

re: #256 jaunte

Paging Grover Norquist:

Taxes are lower is not the same thing as tax revenues are lower. Taxes could be higher and revenues lower.

If a store raises it's prices and then has less revenue (because less people are willing to pay the higher price) you would not say that prices are lower.

260 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:55:07pm

re: #255 Dark_Falcon

Illinois does not have SYG, James. But "duty to retreat" never applies inside one's own home (this is the "Castle Doctrine"). So no, James, the homeowner would not have been charged, with or without SYG. In a case like that, inside one's own home, a reasonable belief that one is under imminent threat is enough. The law does not require that a citizen wait until the threat is proven beyond doubt.

Good.

Because honestly I perfectly agree with what went down in that case you brought up.

Its sane and sensible that you can use deadly force to defend your home.

SYG however seems to make it possible to get away with murder so long as you make sure there is no one left alive to contradict your claims...

261 goddamnedfrank  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:55:28pm

re: #255 Dark_Falcon

Illinois does not have SYG, James. But "duty to retreat" never applies inside one's own home (this is the "Castle Doctrine"). So no, James, the homeowner would not have been charged, with or without SYG. In a case like that, inside one's own home, a reasonable belief that one is under imminent threat is enough. The law does not require that a citizen wait until the threat is proven beyond doubt.

You shouldn't have brought it up then as a comparison, as it has little if anything in common with the situation at hand. Care to comment on the case of the stabby vigilante previously freed under SYG?

262 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:55:49pm

re: #259 Buck

Taxes are lower is not the same thing as tax revenues are lower. Taxes could be higher and revenues lower.

If a store raises it's prices and then has less revenue (because less people are willing to pay the higher price) you would not say that prices are lower.

How many people do you know who have left a state because the taxes have gone up?

How many states do you know that increased tax revenues by lowering tax rates?

263 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:56:15pm

re: #242 goddamnedfrank

The household survey is usually cited as a leading indicator of new employment compered to the employer survey results used in official unemployment reports. The business news channels always chatter about this fact, and the rationale for doing this is very simple. The government does a poor job surveying newly established businesses, and typically in an employment upswing most jobs are created by small or new employers. Most economists agree that at a turning point, the household survey is more accurate.

In fact, this is exactly the point made in the NY times in January (this time intended to boost Obama) about the household survey being stronger and foretelling a stronger employment in the near future:
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Sure enough, early this year official numbers were rather good, though we seem to be hitting a rough spot again. But to be sure, household surveys need follow-on data to confirm an early indication of an upswing. Walker has also only been governor a little over a year, so blaming him on Wisconsin's economy--for good or for bad--is premature.

264 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:56:34pm

re: #254 HappyWarrior

Did you hear about the target range shot owner selling targets in the shape of Martin? Abs-fucking-disgusting. Zimmerman's supporters are what make me lose any sympathy for him. They want to make their guy in to this hero and Martin into this terrible kid.

I hear you, but please do remember that the asshole making those targets did not speak to George Zimmerman at all before making them, nor has Zimmerman profited by their sale (as far as I know). As an American citizen, Zimmerman is entitled to basic fairness, which means not blaming him for the actions of others whom he did not aid and which he has not profited from.

265 Buck  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:56:48pm

re: #262 jamesfirecat

How many people do you know who have left a state because the taxes have gone up?

It happens. How many people I know is not relevant.

266 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:57:25pm

re: #260 jamesfirecat

Good.

Because honestly I perfectly agree with what went down in that case you brought up.

Its sane and sensible that you can use deadly force to defend your home.

SYG however seems to make it possible to get away with murder so long as you make sure there is no one left alive to contradict your claims...

If you like it, put a ding on it. ;)

267 jaunte  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:57:54pm

re: #259 Buck

Maybe this will help:

There are many ways to evaluate tax rates, and most of them point to our tax burden being rather low. For example, look at our average -- or effective -- tax rate, which you can arrive at by dividing total federal tax revenue by our nation's gross domestic product. For 2011, the average tax rate in the U.S. is an estimated 14.8%, according to the Congressional Budget Office. That's the lowest rate since 1950.

Here's another comparison point: The folks at Citizens for Tax Justice -- an organization advocating for fair taxation of the lower and middle classes -- determined that our total federal, state, and local taxes in 2009 amounted to 22.6% of our GDP. Among the 28 member nations in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, that puts us in 26th place, with only Chile and Mexico having lower overall taxes.
[Link: www.dailyfinance.com...]

268 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:58:25pm

re: #264 Dark_Falcon

I hear you, but please do remember that the asshole making those targets did not speak to George Zimmerman at all before making them, nor has Zimmerman profited by their sale (as far as I know). As an American citizen, Zimmerman is entitled to basic fairness, which means not blaming him for the actions of others whom he did not aid and which he has not profited from.

He's entitled to basic fairness not my sympathy. I'm all for giving a fair trial which is he getting but I'm just annoyed that someone like that is being made out to be a hero. Even if he did end up acting legally responsible, his actions weren't that of a hero. A kid is dead. It's a tragic case.

269 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:59:41pm

re: #261 goddamnedfrank

You shouldn't have brought it up then as a comparison, as it has little if anything in common with the situation at hand. Care to comment on the case of the stabby vigilante previously freed under SYG?

Yes, I'd care to comment: His actions, if not illegal (I think the judge ruled incorrectly), should have been illegal: 'Stand Your Ground' means just that. It does not confer the right to pursue a fleeing criminal, that right being reserved to law enforcement.

270 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:59:53pm

re: #265 Buck

It happens. How many people I know is not relevant.

You also conflate micro and macro economics in your post, you can't just "size up" economics.

If you want to shop at a different store because the old one has raised the prices, then you have to cross the street, if you want to move to a different state due to higher taxes you have to move your entire family.

Are there really people so petty they would move their entire family, and be forced to find a new job/new place to work from, just to pay a few dollars less in taxes?

Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face....

271 Buck  Tue, May 15, 2012 6:59:54pm

re: #267 jaunte

Maybe this will help:

It does not help. Very simple logic. The paragraph you quoted originally compared lower tax rates with lower tax revenue. That is not logical, and I have explained why.

272 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:00:49pm

re: #268 HappyWarrior

He's entitled to basic fairness not my sympathy. I'm all for giving a fair trial which is he getting but I'm just annoyed that someone like that is being made out to be a hero. Even if he did end up acting legally responsible, his actions weren't that of a hero. A kid is dead. It's a tragic case.

Quite Concur.

273 Buck  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:01:08pm

re: #270 jamesfirecat

You also conflate micro and macro economics in your post, you can't just "size up" economics.

Actually that is not what I was saying at all.

274 goddamnedfrank  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:01:11pm

re: #259 Buck

Taxes are lower is not the same thing as tax revenues are lower. Taxes could be higher and revenues lower.

If a store raises it's prices and then has less revenue (because less people are willing to pay the higher price) you would not say that prices are lower.

In your analogy taxes equate to store markup and GDP is gross sales. If the percentage of taxes to GDP have lowered then the store's markup is down, regardless of whether overall revenue has gone up or down. In other words, the prices simply cannot have gone up.

275 jaunte  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:01:14pm

re: #271 Buck

Our tax rate is low, contrary to the GOP position.

276 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:02:01pm

re: #265 Buck

It happens. How many people I know is not relevant.

That's not what was asked.
What was asked was for you to produce evidence to back your words.

277 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:02:06pm

re: #270 jamesfirecat

You also conflate micro and macro economics in your post, you can't just "size up" economics.

If you want to shop at a different store because the old one has raised the prices, then you have to cross the street, if you want to move to a different state due to higher taxes you have to move your entire family.

Are there really people so petty they would move their entire family, and be forced to find a new job/new place to work from, just to pay a few dollars less in taxes?

Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face...

Maybe not individual families, but the businesses they work for might decide that say California is not a good place to locate their business due to tax policies.

278 Digital Display  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:02:23pm

Poor Winston..It's the NBA play-offs..
Last night I'm screaming at the TV as the Lakers got their asses handed to them..I jump up and he runs out the room..peeking around the corner at the crazy man..
ME: It's Ok Winston..Come on back.. HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT KOBE!!
Winston: Why does he hate me..*running away*
Me: It's ok Winston..TAKE THAT BITCHES!
Winston: I have food and water and safe harbor under the bed..

279 Buck  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:03:04pm

re: #274 goddamnedfrank

In your analogy taxes equate to store markup and GDP is gross sales.

Nope, that is not what I did.

My analogy was taxes were prices, and revenue was revenue.

280 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:03:28pm

re: #278 HoosierHoops

Poor Winston..It's the NBA play-offs..
Last night I'm screaming at the TV as the Lakers got their asses handed to them..I jump up and he runs out the room..peeking around the corner at the crazy man..
ME: It's Ok Winston..Come on back.. HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT KOBE!!
Winston: Why does he hate me..*running away*
Me: It's ok Winston..TAKE THAT BITCHES!
Winston: I have food and water and safe harbor under the bed..

Durant is a special talent isn't he? Hard to believe there was all that debate about who to take him or Oden way back when. I'm happy for Kevin though. He's a local kid and a good dude. Not that Greg Oden isn't a good guy but I like seeing local guys succeed.

281 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:03:48pm

I know I've been asking for support on conservative issues here on the blog, but I meant real support, not a "Buck visit".

282 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:04:15pm

re: #273 Buck

Actually that is not what I was saying at all.

Yes it is.

"If a store raises it's prices and then has less revenue (because less people are willing to pay the higher price) you would not say that prices are lower."

You are comparing people's shopping habits based on price to where people will live based on what taxes they will have to pay.

When you wrote that you were trying to "size up" an economic situations and economics don't work that way.

The same way that using austerity as a way to fight debt will work for a family in debt, but doesn't work anywhere near as well for a government....

283 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:04:16pm

re: #275 jaunte

Our tax rate is low, contrary to the GOP position.

effective tax rate, yes, but only for those who earn their income through investments.

284 Gus  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:04:30pm

re: #281 Dark_Falcon

I know I've been asking for support on conservative issues here on the blog, but I meant real support, not a "Buck visit".

Sorry dude. ;)

285 Buck  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:04:37pm

re: #276 Conversation Kills

That's not what was asked.
What was asked was for you to produce evidence to back your words.

Nope. I was asked "How many people do you know who have left a state because the taxes have gone up?"

I never said that people left a state because taxes have gone up.

286 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:04:54pm

re: #280 HappyWarrior

Durant is a special talent isn't he? Hard to believe there was all that debate about who to take him or Oden way back when. I'm happy for Kevin though. He's a local kid and a good dude. Not that Greg Oden isn't a good guy but I like seeing local guys succeed.

Oden is a bust. I was Durant all the way. Yay me!

287 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:05:36pm

re: #277 BryanS

Maybe not individual families, but the businesses they work for might decide that say California is not a good place to locate their business due to tax policies.

If Coporations care about paying the lease taxes they'll move to third world countries so its pointless to try and lower our standards to match theirs...

288 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:05:51pm

re: #286 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Oden is a bust. I was Durant all the way. Yay me!

Heh nice scouting. Honestly, I am no scout but I was actually more impressed with Durant too.

289 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:06:14pm
290 jaunte  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:06:35pm

re: #287 jamesfirecat

Office of Management and Budget: average corporate tax rate paid was just 1.3% in 2011, down from 7.2% in 1945.

291 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:06:40pm

Something to consider here.. The unintended consequence of the Feds charging Zimmerman with a hate crime would be that it would mean a conviction for the 2nd degree murder charge could lead to the death penalty and it is highly likely there will be more of a reluctance by some on the jury to convict a person if they think it will lead to execution. Just saying.

292 MittDoesNotCompute  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:07:07pm

re: #268 HappyWarrior

He's entitled to basic fairness not my sympathy. I'm all for giving a fair trial which is he getting but I'm just annoyed that someone like that is being made out to be a hero. Even if he did end up acting legally responsible, his actions weren't that of a hero. A kid is dead. It's a tragic case.

Simply put, GZ is a fucking coward who derived his "courage" from a gun; it's shameful that a kid had to die for GZ to get his "cop wannabe" rocks off, but as SYG is written, history is written by the winner.

Meanwhile, the loser (Martin) is slandered with no way to defend themselves and is still dead; dead men tell no tales.

293 goddamnedfrank  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:07:22pm

re: #269 Dark_Falcon

Yes, I'd care to comment: His actions, if not illegal (I think the judge ruled incorrectly), should have been illegal: 'Stand Your Ground' means just that. It does not confer the right to pursue a fleeing criminal, that right being reserved to law enforcement.

Does the fact that learned professional prosecutors and judges are getting it wrong according to you strike you as a flaw in their understanding of how the law is written or is it possible that the law itself is intrinsically flawed? The error in your reasoning is that you're arguing according to the title of a piece of legislation, when the title itself has absolutely zero bearing on the actual wording of the statue.

294 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:07:31pm

re: #290 jaunte

Office of Management and Budget: average corporate tax rate paid was just 1.3% in 2011, down from 7.2% in 1945.

And that was in a year in which the Fortune 500 posted the largest aggregate profit ever.

295 Buck  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:07:33pm

re: #282 jamesfirecat

You are comparing people's shopping habits based on price to where people will live based on what taxes they will have to pay.

No I was not.

I was explaining that saying that taxes were lower just because revenue was lower did not logically follow. Lower revenue is not proof of lower taxes. Lower revenue is not proof of lower prices.

You are making the state, and families moving thing up in your head.

296 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:07:42pm

re: #289 ggt

On my fb with the caption

BRING IT ON!

I think it's a good "Oh yeah" to those who deny there's an attack on women's rights in the state legislatures in this country. It's ridiculous. If these guys don't like abortion, they should be supporting policies that limit them rather than intimidating the women who do choose to get them which is exactly what policies like forcing ultrasounds do.

297 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:08:36pm

re: #295 Buck

No I was not.

I was explaining that saying that taxes were lower just because revenue was lower did not logically follow. Lower revenue is not proof of lower taxes. Lower revenue is not proof of lower prices.

You are making the state, and families moving thing up in your head.

So Buck, you would argue it's possible to lower taxes and take in more total tax revenue?

298 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:08:50pm

re: #293 goddamnedfrank

Does the fact that learned professional prosecutors and judges are getting it wrong according to you strike you as a flaw in their understanding of how the law is written or is it possible that the law itself is intrinsically flawed? The error in your reasoning is that you're arguing according to the title of a piece of legislation, when the title itself has absolutely zero bearing on the actual wording of the statue.

Then the law needs to be amended to bring its effects into line with its intent.

299 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:08:52pm

re: #228 Targetpractice

It's that line of logic that says once something that was once legal is made illegal, then stopping the illegal version is that much easier. My guess is that the next step will be a replay of an earlier tactic we saw, namely forcing police to treat every miscarriage as a potential "murder" and treating the woman as a suspect.

Women will stop going to the doctor --no pregnancy will be recorded anywhere and she'll start seeing the "witch-doctor" who will eventually be burned at-the-stake.

Women will die, teen girls will die.

300 jaunte  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:08:57pm

re: #294 Mich-again

1.3% avg. rate is pretty low, almost low enough to suggest it would have an effect on lowering revenue.

301 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:09:03pm

re: #287 jamesfirecat

If Coporations care about paying the lease taxes they'll move to third world countries so its pointless to try and lower our standards to match theirs...

So pay no attention to the fact that we have the highest corporate tax rate in the world? Our tax system has so many breaks and loopholes in it that no company actually pays that. This means large corporations who can play tax tricks like Apple (or any other big company) does pay little to know tax. A small to medium sized business gets taxed much closer to the corporate rate. Even Dems agree we need to lower the rate on corporate taxes (in exchange for closing loopholes).

302 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:09:12pm

That the Conservatives claim to be pro-life is belied by the fact that once a poor kid is born, they could give two shits about them.

303 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:10:06pm

re: #292 Gitarzan

Simply put, GZ is a fucking coward who derived his "courage" from a gun; it's shameful that a kid had to die for GZ to get his "cop wannabe" rocks off, but as SYG is written, history is written by the winner.

Meanwhile, the loser (Martin) is slandered with no way to defend themselves and is still dead; dead men tell no tales.

It sucks because he sounded like a good kid. Could have been someone I knew growing up. Then you read the comments on Yahoo, Fox Nation, etc, and you get just a little disgusted with humanity. What upsets me as I've said is the revisionist mindset that makes GZ the poor victim and Martin the thug. I believe Beck was using the fact that Martin was suspended from school as evidence that he was a "thug." As if that justifies murder. The worst by far for me was Geraldo Rivera's idiotic comment about hoodies. But it shows you how out of touch many in the media are.

304 Digital Display  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:10:08pm

re: #286 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Oden is a bust. I was Durant all the way. Yay me!

There were warning signs.. Bill Simmons reported on his blog that he saw Oden at the ESPY's before the draft and he was walking around like his great grandfather..
You can't hide knee injuries in Basketball

305 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:10:17pm

re: #291 Mich-again

Something to consider here.. The unintended consequence of the Feds charging Zimmerman with a hate crime would be that it would mean a conviction for the 2nd degree murder charge could lead to the death penalty and it is highly likely there will be more of a reluctance by some on the jury to convict a person if they think it will lead to execution. Just saying.

I'll reiterate, I think it's the media bringing up the death penalty. I believe it does not even apply to this case. It's more in the realm of James Byrd (dragged behind truck)

306 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:11:11pm

re: #301 BryanS

So pay no attention to the fact that we have the highest corporate tax rate in the world? Our tax system has so many breaks and loopholes in it that no company actually pays that. This means large corporations who can play tax tricks like Apple (or any other big company) does pay little to know tax. A small to medium sized business gets taxed much closer to the corporate rate. Even Dems agree we need to lower the rate on corporate taxes (in exchange for closing loopholes).

Lower rate and close loopholes I'm fine with. I'm just saying that America shouldn't try to get involved in a race to the bottom with every other nation on earth to be the most attractive place to base your corporation.

Otherwise we might as well break out the Ares Macrotechnology ID cards now and save ourselves the trouble.

307 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:11:31pm

re: #302 Mich-again

That the Conservatives claim to be pro-life is belied by the fact that once a poor kid is born, they could give two shits about them.

That's what bothers me. I mean damn if they're so pro life, I want to see them supporting social programs that help poor mothers out and I hardly ever see that from anyone in the political pro life crowd. Just judgement and more judgement. Judge thyself before you judge others or something like that.

308 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:12:29pm

re: #305 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

I'll reiterate, I think it's the media bringing up the death penalty. I believe it does not even apply to this case. It's more in the realm of James Byrd (dragged behind truck)

Perception = Reality. If the jurors have the impression the guilty verdict will send GZ to the gallows, then some of them will balk.

309 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:12:52pm

re: #305 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

I'll reiterate, I think it's the media bringing up the death penalty. I believe it does not even apply to this case. It's more in the realm of James Byrd (dragged behind truck)

Agreed. George Zimmerman may well deserve to go to prison, but he's does not deserve the death penalty.

310 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:13:18pm

re: #304 HoosierHoops

There were warning signs.. Bill Simmons reported on his blog that he saw Oden at the ESPY's before the draft and he was walking around like his great grandfather..
You can't hide knee injuries in Basketball

You also can't be 7' tall with out problems. Except for Shaq, hail to the superman!

311 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:13:27pm

re: #307 HappyWarrior

That's what bothers me. I mean damn if they're so pro life, I want to see them supporting social programs that help poor mothers out and I hardly ever see that from anyone in the political pro life crowd. Just judgement and more judgement. Judge thyself before you judge others or something like that.

And not just for American babies. If a person is Pro-Life because of their Christian faith, then the concern for life wouldn't stop at the border.

312 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:13:36pm

re: #290 jaunte

Office of Management and Budget: average corporate tax rate paid was just 1.3% in 2011, down from 7.2% in 1945.

Your stat was a percentage of the entire GDP, not the average rate.

[Link: www.cbpp.org...]

313 danarchy  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:13:40pm

re: #262 jamesfirecat

How many people do you know who have left a state because the taxes have gone up?

This is actually a real problem here in massachusetts. It is the main reason our population is going down while New Hampshires is going up. We lost a congressional district because of it. New Hampshire happens to have no sales tax or income tax, massachusetts on the other hand has a 5.3% income tax and 6.25% sales tax. It also happens to be why New Hampshire is steadily becoming more blue as it gets more and more mass transplants.

314 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:14:45pm

re: #311 Mich-again

And not just for American babies. If a person is Pro-Life because of their Christian faith, then the concern for life wouldn't stop at the border.

Yep instead we get crap about how we can't support undocumented children which is why the Dream Act has been opposed even though the students that benefit from the provisions of the Dream Act are for all purposes American. Honestly, I don't get it. A more educated population makes for a better economy.

315 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:14:49pm

re: #262 jamesfirecat

How many people do you know who have left a state because the taxes have gone up?

I know a lot of people who have had to move out of MI after retirement because they couldn't afford the property taxes and/or the income taxes.

316 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:16:00pm

re: #306 jamesfirecat

Lower rate and close loopholes I'm fine with. I'm just saying that America shouldn't try to get involved in a race to the bottom with every other nation on earth to be the most attractive place to base your corporation.

Otherwise we might as well break out the Ares Macrotechnology ID cards now and save ourselves the trouble.

Agreed, but we also have a lot of money held by corporations oversees because they get taxed if they repatriate it. So US corporations that make money oversees add little to nothing to the US markets because our tax policy incentivises keeping it there.

317 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:16:26pm

re: #296 HappyWarrior

I think it's a good "Oh yeah" to those who deny there's an attack on women's rights in the state legislatures in this country. It's ridiculous. If these guys don't like abortion, they should be supporting policies that limit them rather than intimidating the women who do choose to get them which is exactly what policies like forcing ultrasounds do.

COMPREHENSIVE EDUCATION AND COST-FREE CONTRACEPTION.

318 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:16:56pm

re: #308 Mich-again

Perception = Reality. If the jurors have the impression the guilty verdict will send GZ to the gallows, then some of them will balk.

Well hell I hope that is not on the table. I do not think it will be. It's the media interpreting the most of hate crime laws.

319 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:17:06pm

One thing that does occur to me though, is that the wingnuts making Trayvon Martin into a thug will likely turn on Zimmerman if he is actually acquitted. If he does not get sent to prison, Zimmerman will likely to try to publicly make clear he isn't a racist. And when tries to do that, said wingnuts will likely "remember" that Zimmerman's mother is from Peru and then turn on him as a "treacherous brown person".

Or am I just being silly by speculating?

320 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:17:41pm

re: #309 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. George Zimmerman may well deserve to go to prison, but he's does not deserve the death penalty.

I say none of us know what he deserves. I was ready to burn him at the stake, but this guy has had so much disinformation reported as fact that I'm going to wait until his trial is done before I decide if he actually did anything.

321 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:17:49pm

re: #317 ggt

COMPREHENSIVE EDUCATION AND COST-FREE CONTRACEPTION.

And getting rid of abstinence only education. Seriously, that's a joke. If you want to teach abstinence as an alternative to birth control, fine but abstinence only is a bad policy that is totally unrealistic.

322 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:18:02pm

re: #316 BryanS

Agreed, but we also have a lot of money held by corporations oversees because they get taxed if they repatriate it. So US corporations that make money oversees add little to nothing to the US markets because our tax policy incentivises keeping it there.

Are you saying we should drop the tax on money getting repatriated, or that we should pass laws/regulations to keep corporations from offshoring money in the first place?

323 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:18:47pm

re: #319 Dark_Falcon

One thing that does occur to me though, is that the wingnuts making Trayvon Martin into a thug will likely turn on Zimmerman if he is actually acquitted. If he does not get sent to prison, Zimmerman will likely to try to publicly make clear he isn't a racist. And when tries to do that, said wingnuts will likely "remember" that Zimmerman's mother is from Peru and then turn on him as a "treacherous brown person".

Or am I just being silly by speculating?

You're being silly. The Rightwing loves a winner, and Zimmerman will be held as a hero who fought big government and won.

324 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:18:54pm

re: #321 HappyWarrior

And getting rid of abstinence only education. Seriously, that's a joke. If you want to teach abstinence as an alternative to birth control, fine but abstinence only is a bad policy that is totally unrealistic.

That would be the "comprehensive" part --science-based-real-honest-to-gosh BIOLOGY.

325 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:19:03pm

re: #314 HappyWarrior

A more educated population makes for a better economy.

The conservative strategy for everything is based on the false assumption that any benefit "the other" gets must first be taken away from others. Everything in politics is just a game of musical chairs.

326 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:19:04pm

re: #320 BryanS

I say none of us know what he deserves. I was ready to burn him at the stake, but this guy has had so much disinformation reported as fact that I'm going to wait until his trial is done before I decide if he actually did anything.

Fair enough.

327 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:19:47pm
328 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:19:59pm

re: #319 Dark_Falcon

One thing that does occur to me though, is that the wingnuts making Trayvon Martin into a thug will likely turn on Zimmerman if he is actually acquitted. If he does not get sent to prison, Zimmerman will likely to try to publicly make clear he isn't a racist. And when tries to do that, said wingnuts will likely "remember" that Zimmerman's mother is from Peru and then turn on him as a "treacherous brown person".

Or am I just being silly by speculating?

I don't know. Wingnuts are weird. Who knows, if he's found guilty, they may make him into a right wing version of Mumia Al-Jamal, whose case by the way I've long thought was the worst for anti-death penalty rallying cries but that's another story.

329 Buck  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:21:05pm

re: #275 jaunte

Our tax rate is low, contrary to the GOP position.

Ahh, no problem, you just forgot to back that little fact up and include the link:

www.outofyourass.com

330 Mocking Jay  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:21:24pm

re: #323 jamesfirecat

You're being silly. The Rightwing loves a winner, and Zimmerman will be held as a hero who fought big government and won.

Hero!

331 danarchy  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:21:55pm

re: #322 jamesfirecat

Problem is, the majority isn't money that is off-shored It is money that is made over seas and can't be brought back without a big tax hit. In most cases the money has already been taxed in the country where it was made. So instead of bringing it home and investing in US operations it makes more sense to just leave it where it was earned and invest it in your overseas operations.

332 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:22:09pm

re: #330 Assemble!

Hero!

Yes he's an American Hero.... who is not an American anymore.... didn't quite think that through.....

333 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:22:11pm

re: #328 HappyWarrior

I don't know. Wingnuts are weird. Who knows, if he's found guilty, they may make him into a right wing version of Mumia Al-Jamal, whose case by the way I've long thought was the worst for anti-death penalty rallying cries but that's another story.

Indeed. Abu-Jamal's is ultimately a much clearer case, and he richly merited the life sentence he is currently serving.

334 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:22:17pm

re: #319 Dark_Falcon

Or am I just being silly by speculating?

You are thinking too hard to cipher the mind of the base.

335 kirkspencer  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:22:18pm

hate to do a drive by post, but reality check time.

Zimmerman isn't facing the death penalty. It's second degree, not first. The potential for capital punishment is why the grand jury is mandatory for the more severe charge.

336 jaunte  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:22:23pm

re: #329 Buck

What's your suggestion to reduce the deficit?

337 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:22:33pm

re: #330 Assemble!

Hero!

Lauding a guy for renouncing his US citizenship? Aren't these the same guys that called many of us unpatriotic for being critical of the Iraq War? (Rhetorical question)

338 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:23:35pm

re: #319 Dark_Falcon

One thing that does occur to me though, is that the wingnuts making Trayvon Martin into a thug will likely turn on Zimmerman if he is actually acquitted. If he does not get sent to prison, Zimmerman will likely to try to publicly make clear he isn't a racist. And when tries to do that, said wingnuts will likely "remember" that Zimmerman's mother is from Peru and then turn on him as a "treacherous brown person".

Or am I just being silly by speculating?

339 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:24:08pm

Image: 130px-Exposure_photograph_5.jpg

Gerri Santoro --died from an unsafe abortion.

She was a mother of 2 young girls --and an abusive husband.

340 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:24:10pm

re: #259 Buck

Taxes are lower is not the same thing as tax revenues are lower. Taxes could be higher and revenues lower.

If a store raises it's prices and then has less revenue (because less people are willing to pay the higher price) you would not say that prices are lower.

Nobody would say that.

Since tax is the only source of tax income, lowering taxes will reduce tax revenues, unless reducing individual tax increases the tax revenue through increased tax sources numbers.

Conversely, increasing taxes will raise tax revenues, unless the number of tax sources is reduced.

You have to show that increases taxes will necessarily reduce the number of tax sources.

341 jaunte  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:24:16pm

re: #329 Buck

Ahh, no problem, you just forgot to back that little fact up and include the link:

www.outofyourass.com

I suppose I should have used the word 'effective' before tax rate.

342 danarchy  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:24:25pm

re: #335 kirkspencer

hate to do a drive by post, but reality check time.

Zimmerman isn't facing the death penalty. It's second degree, not first. The potential for capital punishment is why the grand jury is mandatory for the more severe charge.

The article is about Zimmerman possibly facing a federal hate crimes charges in connection with a murder, which could carry the death penalty.

343 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:25:40pm

re: #322 jamesfirecat

Are you saying we should drop the tax on money getting repatriated, or that we should pass laws/regulations to keep corporations from offshoring money in the first place?

We should lower the tax on money held oversees. Keep in mind, this is from profits earned in oversees markets, subject to taxes oversees. The ~$100billion Apple alone has in oversees cash is profits they made there and were taxed under the appropriate foreign government corporate tax rates. If they repatriate that money, they will get taxed again at about 35%. Apple can't write enough off enough in tax deductions to offset their oversees profits.

According to this story, there is about $1trillion in profits sitting oversees from US corporations.
[Link: www.politico.com...]

345 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:26:26pm

re: #339 ggt

Image: 130px-Exposure_photograph_5.jpg

Gerri Santoro --died from an unsafe abortion.

She was a mother of 2 young girls --and an abusive husband.

Damn I had never heard of that case before. Tragic.

346 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:26:33pm

re: #338 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Lost post damnit

347 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:27:44pm
348 Mocking Jay  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:27:47pm

re: #344 Dark_Falcon

Arnold Kling of the Cato Institute calls for breaking up "too big to fail" banks.

So refreshing to see Cato admit that this failure of Capitalism has to go.

349 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:28:06pm

re: #343 BryanS

We should lower the tax on money held oversees. Keep in mind, this is from profits earned in oversees markets, subject to taxes oversees. The ~$100billion Apple alone has in oversees cash is profits they made there and were taxed under the appropriate foreign government corporate tax rates. If they repatriate that money, they will get taxed again at about 35%. Apple can't write enough off enough in tax deductions to offset their oversees profits.

According to this story, there is about $1trillion in profits sitting oversees from US corporations.
[Link: www.politico.com...]

That doesn't seem like a bad idea, I'll spend some time to do more research on the subject in my free time but for now I agree with you.

350 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:28:36pm

re: #340 Conversation Kills

Since tax is the only source of tax income, lowering taxes will reduce tax revenues, unless reducing individual tax increases the tax revenue through increased tax sources numbers.

Its a question about where we currently exist on the Laffer curve. If tax rates are 0, you collect 0 revenue. If tax rates are 100%, you collect 0 revenue. In between there is a revenue curve that goes up, reaches a maximum at some tax rate, and then goes down.

That said, tax rates for the rich are at historically low levels, and job creation is lacking. So it is really hard to make a case saying that reducing them further still will somehow help.

The notion that tax rates need to go down from where we are is classic example of.. If the medicine isn't working, just increase the dosage.

351 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:28:42pm

re: #345 HappyWarrior

Damn I had never heard of that case before. Tragic.

POV (Point Of View) did a show on it about 17-18 years ago --I hope they rebroadcast it.

They interviewed her now-grown daughters and her sister.

Very tragic, yet that is what the Whackos think is justice.

352 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:29:19pm

I read or heard somewhere that Cato was ousting the Koch's --is that true?

353 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:30:53pm

I recommend anyone who wants to really understand the Conservative movement and agenda wade through the site Conservapedia to get educated.

Holy cow.

354 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:31:10pm

re: #285 Buck

Nope. I was asked "How many people do you know who have left a state because the taxes have gone up?"

I never said that people left a state because taxes have gone up.

Your analogy did. Paying taxes is not voluntary. The only way to not pay tax is by leaving the tax area or by making no wages.

355 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:31:10pm

re: #351 ggt

POV (Point Of View) did a show on it about 17-18 years ago --I hope they rebroadcast it.

They interviewed her now-grown daughters and her sister.

Very tragic, yet that is what the Whackos think is justice.

It's heartbreaking. The most disgusted I ever was when I read about the RCC excommunicating that doctor who performed an abortion on the nine year old girl who was raped in Brazil. Abortion needs to be legal, safe, and available to be done without the women who choose to get that procedure being harassed by a bunch of psychopaths.

356 prairiefire  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:31:50pm

re: #225 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Please see comment way above: salon.com has debate of Romney & kennedy where he speaks of a relative who DIED from botched illegal abortion. That's where his moms and his previous Planned Parenthood support came from.

What a disingenuous ass hole. Why doesn't he honor her memory as he did before?

357 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:31:50pm

re: #352 ggt

I read or heard somewhere that Cato was ousting the Koch's --is that true?

Story I've heard is the Kochs want to take over CATO totally and CATO doesn't want that.

358 Buck  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:32:01pm

re: #336 jaunte

Cut spending, in particular entitlement reform.

359 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:32:07pm

re: #349 jamesfirecat

That doesn't seem like a bad idea, I'll spend some time to do more research on the subject in my free time but for now I agree with you.

Obama has said some positive things about a tax holiday on repatriating oversee profits. You can's make the repatriation rate zero--Apple, since that has been my example, is famous for how aggressive it is in avoiding taxes by setting up foreign operations designed to avoid US tax burdens. We can't allow companies to skirt all tax liability. In the past, we've done temporary repatriation holidays at a lower rate. That did result in some windfall taxes plus an injection of money into our economy.

360 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:32:32pm

re: #352 ggt

I read or heard somewhere that Cato was ousting the Koch's --is that true?

The Koch brothers tried to take Cato over. The institute's resident scholars took the attempt...poorly.

361 Buck  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:32:36pm

re: #354 Conversation Kills

Your analogy did. Paying taxes is not voluntary. The only way to not pay tax is by leaving the tax area or by making no wages.

Also not true.

362 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:33:30pm

re: #358 Buck

Cut spending, in particular entitlement reform.

How would you reform entitlement to make it more/just as effective while spending less, or which people's entitlements are you okay with reducing?

363 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:33:38pm

re: #358 Buck

Cut spending, in particular entitlement reform.

Reform which entitlements, and how? Feel free to take multiple posts if you need, since its a big topic.

364 compound_Idaho  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:34:12pm

re: #353 Mich-again

Headed to Boise tomorrow for the state high school baseball tournament. My son's team got the last spot via a one game playoff. They will be playing the number one seed (24-1) in the first game. I love love high school baseball.

365 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:34:17pm

re: #356 prairiefire

What a disingenuous ass hole. Why doesn't he honor her memory as he did before?

Friend I thought of you all day. Google news had a headline about Romney comparing whatever he was talking about to a PRAIRE FIRE.

366 Gus  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:34:23pm

re: #351 ggt

POV (Point Of View) did a show on it about 17-18 years ago --I hope they rebroadcast it.

They interviewed her now-grown daughters and her sister.

Very tragic, yet that is what the Whackos think is justice.

You can see that film for 4.99 with 21 days of streaming from this site: [Link: www.newdaydigital.com...]

367 Mocking Jay  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:34:57pm

re: #365 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Friend I thought of you all day. Google news had a headline about Romney comparing whatever he was talking about to a PRAIRE FIRE.

It was debt.

368 Gus  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:36:01pm

re: #366 Gus

You can see that film for 4.99 with 21 days of streaming from this site: [Link: www.newdaydigital.com...]

Also at iTunes: [Link: itunes.apple.com...]

369 Lidane  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:36:38pm

re: #358 Buck

Cut spending, in particular entitlement reform.

Does that include cutting defense spending?

Right now, the House GOP is authorizing billions more than what the Pentagon is even asking for. They're giving the DoD money they don't want. Would you cut that as well?

370 Buck  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:37:31pm

re: #362 jamesfirecat

How would you reform entitlement to make it more/just as effective while spending less, or which people's entitlements are you okay with reducing?

Are we asking for a post that is a complete workup of a federal budget, or state?

371 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:38:25pm

re: #370 Buck

Are we asking for a post that is a complete workup of a federal budget, or state?

Federal.

I'll spot you a start Buck, we can reduce entitlement spending at least some by making Social Security Means Testing or whatever it shoudl be called. Basically, if you're still employed and making lots of money you don't need to get social security money to support yourself regardless of your age.

372 kirkspencer  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:38:49pm

re: #342 danarchy

The article is about Zimmerman possibly facing a federal hate crimes charges in connection with a murder, which could carry the death penalty.

Ah, right. Not the same trial. (Federal, not state.)

373 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:39:06pm

re: #370 Buck

Are we asking for a post that is a complete workup of a federal budget, or state?

Ah just what tho poor get. That's what you cold hearted people label entitlements. Don't dance around, stand up for your beliefs.

374 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:39:24pm

re: #370 Buck

Are we asking for a post that is a complete workup of a federal budget, or state?

Try this, Buck: Explain how you would reform Medicare. That's a big and costly program, giving you something to work with, but by limiting ourselves to that one program to start we can keep things focused.

375 Digital Display  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:39:56pm

re: #370 Buck

Are we asking for a post that is a complete workup of a federal budget, or state?

PDF please...

376 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:40:12pm

re: #358 Buck

Cut spending, in particular entitlement reform.

As long as it doesn't involve white people or farmers right?

377 Hawaii69  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:40:38pm

I think using the "Hate Crime" laws in a case like this one will confuse the issue, and stretch the intention of the law.

Zimmerman is guilty of a Stupidity Crime, and a Failure to Grasp the Seriousness of Playing Policemen Crime, but I don't believe he was out to harm anyone out of hatred.

We all make assumptions based on appearance, and who make look out of place to us.

378 kirkspencer  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:42:28pm

re: #343 BryanS

We should lower the tax on money held oversees. Keep in mind, this is from profits earned in oversees markets, subject to taxes oversees. The ~$100billion Apple alone has in oversees cash is profits they made there and were taxed under the appropriate foreign government corporate tax rates. If they repatriate that money, they will get taxed again at about 35%. Apple can't write enough off enough in tax deductions to offset their oversees profits.

According to this story, there is about $1trillion in profits sitting oversees from US corporations.
[Link: www.politico.com...]

Actually, I think we should close the loopholes to include the current overseas exemptions -- and use the model used by individuals to deal with foreign taxes. That is, calculate what you owe, and deduct what you paid to the foreign nation from what you owe.

But first close the loopholes. When the largest corporations in the nation by revenues are paying zero or next to zero tax on revenues, it's a case of misdirection to claim the tax rate is too high.

379 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:42:38pm

re: #377 Hawaii69

I think using the "Hate Crime" laws in a case like this one will confuse the issue, and stretch the intention of the law.

Zimmerman is guilty of a Stupidity Crime, and a Failure to Grasp the Seriousness of Playing Policemen Crime, but I don't believe he was out to harm anyone out of hatred.

We all make assumptions based on appearance, and who those assumptions make look out of place to us.

Suggested Addition to help you get your point across.

380 Buck  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:43:14pm

re: #374 Dark_Falcon

Try this, Buck: Explain how you would reform Medicare. That's a big and costly program, giving you something to work with, but by limiting ourselves to that one program to start we can keep things focused.

Ok, I would start with people who are 50 and younger now. A portion of their medicare benefits, over a certain amount would get clawed back in taxes based on income. For anyone 51 and older in 2013 their benefits would not change.

381 Gus  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:43:32pm
382 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:44:39pm

re: #380 Buck

Ok, I would start with people who are 50 and younger now. A portion of their medicare benefits, over a certain amount would get clawed back in taxes based on income. For anyone 51 and older in 2013 their benefits would not change.

So just to be clear, if you're still making money when you would qualify for medicare you would get less in the way of medicare benefits?

383 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:44:47pm

re: #380 Buck

Ok, I would start with people who are 50 and younger now. A portion of their medicare benefits, over a certain amount would get clawed back in taxes based on income. For anyone 51 and older in 2013 their benefits would not change.

That's a reasonable suggestion. It will put you at odds with Grover Norquist, however (though that's OK with me).

384 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:46:01pm

re: #374 Dark_Falcon

Try this, Buck: Explain how you would reform Medicare. That's a big and costly program, giving you something to work with, but by limiting ourselves to that one program to start we can keep things focused.

Social security is much easier. Means test, raise retirement age. Problem solved.

385 Lidane  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:46:21pm

re: #381 Gus

It's nice to know that sick, housebound senior citizens don't matter, but padding a defense contractor's wallet does.

386 prairiefire  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:46:22pm

re: #365 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Friend I thought of you all day. Google news had a headline about Romney comparing whatever he was talking about to a PRAIRE FIRE.

Whuut!? Him and Bill Ayers are just posers![Link: www.zombietime.com...]

387 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:46:23pm

re: #366 Gus

You can see that film for 4.99 with 21 days of streaming from this site: [Link: www.newdaydigital.com...]

You know, you are really awesome!

388 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:46:46pm

re: #381 Gus

[Embedded content]

Didn't Joe Barton say that people on Meals on Wheels should be working? Does that guy have any clue who most of the recipients of that program are? I mean I could understand maybe if this was some freshman congressman but a committee chair like Barton who has been office since the mid 80's?

389 jaunte  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:46:54pm

re: #385 Lidane

Military Keynesians.

390 Gus  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:46:54pm

re: #387 ggt

You know, you are really awesome!

Thanks. :)

391 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:47:07pm

re: #385 Lidane

It's nice to know that sick, housebound senior citizens don't matter, but padding a defense contractor's wallet does.

Indeed, and I say this as someone applying for a job at the DoD.

392 Buck  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:47:28pm

re: #382 jamesfirecat

if you're still making money when you would qualify for medicare

A portion of their medicare benefits, over a certain amount would get clawed back in taxes based on income. If the "every year" part wasn't obvious, I apologize. I thought that would be understood.

393 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:47:32pm

re: #380 Buck

A portion of their medicare benefits, over a certain amount would get clawed back in taxes based on income.

Good suggestion, but a non-starter in the GOP. Any suggestion relating to increasing taxes on anyone is DOA.

394 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:47:35pm

re: #383 Dark_Falcon

That's a reasonable suggestion. It will put you at odds with Grover Norquist, however (though that's OK with me).

Our government should not be held hostage to a plan one a man came up with as a teenager.

395 Gus  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:47:38pm

re: #389 jaunte

Military Keynesians.

What we need now is a replacement for the F-35!

//

396 dragonath  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:48:12pm

I found an interesting piece of trivia that relates to the Greek financial crisis:

Greece has defaulted on its external sovereign debt obligations at least five previous times in the modern era (1826, 1843, 1860, 1894 and 1932).

Wow!

397 Buck  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:48:22pm

re: #393 Mich-again

Good suggestion, but a non-starter in the GOP. Any suggestion relating to increasing taxes on anyone is DOA.

You seem so sure about that.

398 prairiefire  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:48:25pm

re: #367 Assemble!

It was debt.

JasonA! It is Kid A who has the avatar of a painting of a lady with curlers in her hair. Wasn't the first "Sherlock" delicious? I have the second one on DVR.

399 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:49:14pm

re: #387 ggt

You know, you are really awesome!

Now you've done it. Gus will not be able to get out the door, until one of us is able to successfully deflate his now inflated head.

Don't worry Gus, we're here to help.

400 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:49:38pm

re: #378 kirkspencer

Actually, I think we should close the loopholes to include the current overseas exemptions -- and use the model used by individuals to deal with foreign taxes. That is, calculate what you owe, and deduct what you paid to the foreign nation from what you owe.

But first close the loopholes. When the largest corporations in the nation by revenues are paying zero or next to zero tax on revenues, it's a case of misdirection to claim the tax rate is too high.

You also have to deal with reality. We'll never see a dime of taxes on oversees earnings if we make it expensive to repatriate the money.

But you have a decent idea of allowing corporations to deduct taxes paid oversees when repatriating--would avoid the double taxation scenario.

401 Lidane  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:49:42pm

re: #388 HappyWarrior

Didn't Joe Barton say that people on Meals on Wheels should be working? Does that guy have any clue who most of the recipients of that program are? I mean I could understand maybe if this was some freshman congressman but a committee chair like Barton who has been office since the mid 80's?

Seriously.

Meals on Wheels is for the sick and housebound seniors who can't leave the house to buy groceries and who would otherwise starve or go hungry if they didn't get a fresh, hot meal delivered to them daily. Barton is a clueless, heartless motherfucker.

Of course, this is the same guy who apologized to BP for the government questioning them about the Gulf oil spill. He's not exactly the brightest bulb in the box.

402 Gus  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:49:56pm

re: #399 Conversation Kills

Now you've done it. Gus will not be able to get out the door, until one of us is able to successfully deflate his now inflated head.

Don't worry Gus, we're here to help.

Damn you! It's already incredibly massive.

//

403 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:49:58pm

re: #397 Buck

You seem so sure about that.

Is there any evidence to think otherwise? For crying out loud, the notion of a minimum tax on millionaires brought on the threat of a filibuster from the GOP.

404 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:49:58pm

re: #390 Gus

Thanks. :)

You do have impressive Google-Fu.

405 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:50:18pm

re: #392 Buck

A portion of their medicare benefits, over a certain amount would get clawed back in taxes based on income. If the "every year" part wasn't obvious, I apologize. I thought that would be understood.

Buck, that comes across as somewhat dickish. Please be careful.

406 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:50:31pm

re: #401 Lidane

Seriously.

Meals on Wheels is for the sick and housebound seniors who can't leave the house to buy groceries and who would otherwise starve or go hungry if they didn't get a fresh, hot meal delivered to them daily. Barton is a clueless, heartless motherfucker.

Of course, this is the same guy who apologized to BP for the government questioning them about the Gulf oil spill. He's not exactly the brightest bulb in the box.

Yeah I remember when my then 90 year old grandmother who had lost her memory was on Meals on Wheels. And I remember the apology to BP. Something's not home there.

407 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:50:31pm

re: #392 Buck

A portion of their medicare benefits, over a certain amount would get clawed back in taxes based on income. If the "every year" part wasn't obvious, I apologize. I thought that would be understood.

I've heard far less reasonable ideas, a person like Steve Jobs is still working a job into the years that most people retire and stg lots of money they don't need as much government support as most people at that age do.

408 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:50:56pm

re: #397 Buck

You seem so sure about that.

What evidence have you seen to the contrary?

409 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:50:57pm

re: #394 jamesfirecat

Our government should not be held hostage to a plan one a man came up with as a teenager.

Concur.

410 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:51:00pm

I think this nights Car Magnet and Bumper Sticker turned-out rather well, don't you?

Share if you like and once again, thank you for your patience.

411 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:51:36pm

re: #396 Be Zorch, Daddio

I found an interesting piece of trivia that relates to the Greek financial crisis:

Wow!

And the Euros thought they should join their club? Shame on them for being so dumb.

412 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:51:37pm

re: #395 Gus

What we need now is a replacement for the F-35!

//

How about a Mitsubishi A6M Zero?

413 Interesting Times  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:51:38pm
414 Buck  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:52:28pm

re: #405 Dark_Falcon

Buck, that comes across as somewhat dickish. Please be careful.

And your remark at my expense in your #281 was what?

Glass house... throwing rocks....???

415 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:52:52pm

The Norquist pledges are stupid and I was fortunate to see a former GOP congerssman, Tom Davis who teaches at my alma mater admitting as much. It would be nice if the current ones stopped signing his stupid pledges. As much as I don't like cutting social spending, I wouldn't like it if there was a person doing the bully thing Norquist does. Norquist is an ideologue whose interest in his own words is shrinking the government in the bathtub. He's not someone whose pledges should be blindly signed.

416 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:52:52pm

re: #412 Conversation Kills

How about a Mitsubishi A6M Zero?

Too slow, no protection and worst of all...

BUILT BY YELLOW PEOPLE!!1

417 Hawaii69  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:52:53pm

I actually meant to say:

"We all make assumptions based on appearance, and who "may" look out of place to us."....not "make"

418 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:53:07pm

re: #402 Gus

Damn you! It's already incredibly massive.

//

Quick, somebody hand me the ice pick!

419 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:53:24pm

re: #414 Buck

And your remark at my expense in your #281 was what?

Glass house... throwing rocks...???

Touche.

420 Gus  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:53:39pm

re: #412 Conversation Kills

How about a Mitsubishi A6M Zero?

Theoretically a Zero would be decades ahead of Al Qaeda war technology. Well, a Zero with modern communications devices and a GPS.

//

421 Interesting Times  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:54:02pm
422 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:55:13pm

re: #410 ggt

I think this nights Car Magnet and Bumper Sticker turned-out rather well, don't you?

Share if you like and once again, thank you for your patience.

Wow, is that ever ... pink!

Now make a boy's version.

423 Buck  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:55:20pm

re: #408 jamesfirecat

What evidence have you seen to the contrary?

Look, I can't give you all the details in a simple post, but what I described is similar to plans the GOP have put forward. They don't talk about it being a tax, but a limit to medicare payments (vouchers), based on income (the poor continue to get benefits paid, the rich top out).

424 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:56:20pm

re: #420 Gus

Theoretically a Zero would be decades ahead of Al Qaeda war technology. Well, a Zero with modern communications devices and a GPS.

//

Yes, but that brings us back to the point of Japan having a real military, which our current enemies do not.

425 Gus  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:56:26pm

re: #422 Conversation Kills

Wow, is that ever ... pink!

No make a boy's version.

Genderist.

426 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:57:25pm

re: #422 Conversation Kills

Wow, is that ever ... pink!

No make a boy's version.

Hey, don't be afraid to wear PINK! Reproductive Rights affect everyone --show your support for the Women and Children. Nothing more Chivalrous!

427 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:57:47pm

re: #423 Buck

Look, I can't give you all the details in a simple post, but what I described is similar to plans the GOP have put forward. They don't talk about it being a tax, but a limit to medicare payments (vouchers), based on income (the poor continue to get benefits paid, the rich top out).

You didn't mention Vouchers in your suggestion Buck, and do you not realize why Vouchers would be a major change to the way Medicare works?

428 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:58:43pm

re: #425 Gus

Genderist.

It also needs some of those truck balls.

429 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 7:58:57pm

re: #426 ggt

Hey, don't be afraid to wear PINK! Reproductive Rights affect everyone --show your support for the Women and Children. Nothing more Chivalrous!

Yes, but some men simply cannot make the look work. How can one be chivalrous if one looks like a fashion victim? :D

430 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:00:36pm

re: #429 Dark_Falcon

Yes, but some men simply cannot make the look work. How can one be chivalrous if one looks like a fashion victim? :D

There is a 35% off code: TA3541044

I have this in BLUE.

431 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:01:55pm

re: #430 ggt

There is a 35% off code: TA3541044

I have this in BLUE.

Do you have that in forehead size?

432 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:01:56pm

re: #428 Conversation Kills

It also needs some of those truck balls.

Now, you've given me an idea!

433 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:02:29pm

re: #431 Conversation Kills

Do you have that in forehead size?

No, only the magnet/sticker at this time.

434 jaunte  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:02:40pm

FACT CHECK: Romney oversimplifies debt 'inferno'

When Republican presidential hopeful Mitt Romney decried the "prairie fire" of U.S. debt Tuesday, he ignored some of the sparks that set it ablaze.

One was the Great Recession that took hold before Barack Obama became president. That landmark event went unmentioned in Romney's speech. Another was a series of Bush-era tax cuts that Romney wants to follow with even lower rates.

435 Gus  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:02:47pm

Government saving ideas? How about stop spending so much money on architecture and hiring superstar architects. Another idea? Start developing combat aircraft that work and stop developing combat aircraft watches.

436 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:03:27pm

re: #427 jamesfirecat

You didn't mention Vouchers in your suggestion Buck, and do you not realize why Vouchers would be a major change to the way Medicare works?

One prominent Democrat agrees with the a premium support plan as an option worthy of consideration. Hear him out and his reasons from a left leaning perspective:
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

A premium support method that scales back for more well off seniors seems like a decent way to means test the benefit.

437 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:04:55pm

re: #413 Interesting Times

I have been a member of management in a company with a unionized workforce for my 28 year so-far career and I would be the first to acknowledge that any benefit I have was because the unions fought for them first.

I have a lot of respect for the unions. I know that union workers are just regular people trying to make a living to support their families and the percentage of them who are NFG is the same percentage that applies to the general population regardless of occupation or position. And I know from decades of experience that the horror stories people like to tell about slackers or drunks or lazy union workers were the fault of a weak supervisor who was too much of a puss to enforce the contract to get rid of the a-holes.

There is nothing that makes most all union workers more happy than when some idiot co-worker who deserves to get fired for contractual violations actually gets fired.

438 Buck  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:05:38pm

re: #427 jamesfirecat

You didn't mention Vouchers in your suggestion Buck, and do you not realize why Vouchers would be a major change to the way Medicare works?

Of course. Do you think it is possible to reform it, and keep it exactly the same?

A limit to medicare payments is the same as a voucher. The word voucher is just a description. It doesn't actually come in the form of a piece of paper or ticket.

Limiting medicare to a specific amount, means tested by income. People without income (the poor) and the really sick have no upper limit, in effect have no voucher. However those with means top out and have to pay any additional cost themselves (or with insurance).

439 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:05:52pm

re: #426 ggt

Hey, don't be afraid to wear PINK! Reproductive Rights affect everyone --show your support for the Women and Children. Nothing more Chivalrous!

Jason Mraz manages to pull it off:


440 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:06:37pm

re: #439 BryanS

Jason Mraz manages to pull it off:

[Embedded content]

See, a REAL man!

LOL

441 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:07:10pm

re: #436 BryanS

One prominent Democrat agrees with the a premium support plan as an option worthy of consideration. Hear him out and his reasons from a left leaning perspective:
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

A premium support method that scales back for more well off seniors seems like a decent way to means test the benefit.

Reducing benefits for the rich I'm more or less fine with. However, rolling otu vouchers I have a BIG problem with because it can add major complications to old people's lives, as it expects them to take the time to analize the market and find just the right healthcare system for them. Its far better just to have a government program they can depend on.

442 Gus  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:08:06pm
443 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:08:29pm

Full disclosure:

I have two pink dress shirts to wear with my dark suit and tie, and a pink tie to wear with my dark shirt.

444 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:09:00pm

re: #442 Gus

Pink!

SEE!

445 Buck  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:09:04pm

re: #441 jamesfirecat

add major complications to old people's lives, as it expects them to take the time to analize the market and find just the right healthcare system for them. Its far better just to have a government program they can depend on.

I think you misunderstand the plan. However "a government program they can depend on" is not possible. No one can depend on a program that runs out of money.

446 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:09:07pm

re: #410 ggt

I think this nights Car Magnet and Bumper Sticker turned-out rather well, don't you?

Share if you like and once again, thank you for your patience.

I thought Komen For The CureTM copyrighted the shit out the color pink.

447 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:09:36pm

Does it count if I have a purple polo?

448 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:09:45pm

re: #438 Buck

People without income (the poor) and the really sick have no upper limit, in effect have no voucher. However those with means top out and have to pay any additional cost themselves (or with insurance).

While I may think that sounds somewhat reasonable, the folks who run Conservapedia who are the vanguards of true conservatism would label that post as liberal. You fail the litmus test and you are now just a RINO. ha.

449 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:09:45pm

re: #438 Buck

Of course. Do you think it is possible to reform it, and keep it exactly the same?

A limit to medicare payments is the same as a voucher. The word voucher is just a description. It doesn't actually come in the form of a piece of paper or ticket.

Limiting medicare to a specific amount, means tested by income. People without income (the poor) and the really sick have no upper limit, in effect have no voucher. However those with means top out and have to pay any additional cost themselves (or with insurance).

Lets be clear Buck, the issue I have with any plan involving vouchers is not the reduced amount of medicare assistance that some people get, it is that those people have to then purchase healthcare on the public market rather than having a govenrment system they can depend on.

Did your plan involve having people with reduced benefits having to buy healthcare on the public market?

450 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:10:00pm

re: #446 Learned Mother of Zion

I thought Komen For The CureTM copyrighted the shit out the color pink.

Perhaps they did, Planned Parenthood uses it too.

451 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:10:21pm

re: #447 HappyWarrior

Does it count if I have a purple polo?

How hard did you have to work it to make it turn purple?

452 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:10:35pm

re: #443 Conversation Kills

Full disclosure:

I have two pink dress shirts to wear with my dark suit and tie, and a pink tie to wear with my dark shirt.

Are you Eddie Money?

453 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:10:40pm

re: #451 Conversation Kills

How hard did you have to work it to make it turn purple?

It uh came like that.

454 Buck  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:10:58pm

re: #449 jamesfirecat

that those people have to then purchase healthcare on the public market rather than having a govenrment system they can depend on.

That was version 1.0 Ryan is on version 3.0 now.

455 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:11:29pm

re: #454 Buck

That was version 1.0 Ryan is on version 3.0 now.

Then I find that aspect of that plan less objectionable than the previous one.

456 Lidane  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:11:53pm

re: #442 Gus

Pink!

Pink!

457 Buck  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:13:28pm

The 2013 budget that Ryan unveiled picks up some important features, including the Medicare option (for james), from the Ryan-Wyden plan. It would create a competitive-bidding process to determine the annual increase in the government voucher, forcing health plans and the Medicare program to compete for patients. The federal subsidy would be based on the second- least-expensive plan in each market. Ryan would means-test Medicare by subsidizing the poor more and the wealthy less. And beginning in 2023, he would increase gradually the Medicare eligibility age until it reaches 67 in 2034.

[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

458 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:13:28pm

re: #452 Mich-again

Are you Eddie Money?

459 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:13:30pm

re: #441 jamesfirecat

Reducing benefits for the rich I'm more or less fine with. However, rolling otu vouchers I have a BIG problem with because it can add major complications to old people's lives, as it expects them to take the time to analize the market and find just the right healthcare system for them. Its far better just to have a government program they can depend on.

As he points out in his writeup on Huffpo, his plan doesn't do away with the traditional fee for service model that is the current Medicare system. His plan also envisions a lot of regulatory oversight of those plans. The drug benefit added under Bush was one of those rare times when projected costs of an additional entitlement benefit came in LESS than budget projections due to competition among providers.

460 sagehen  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:13:30pm

re: #396 Be Zorch, Daddio

I found an interesting piece of trivia that relates to the Greek financial crisis:

Wow!

I'm not sure I'd call "1826, 1843, 1860, 1894 and 1932" the modern era.

Four of the five are pre-WWI, the other's pre-WWII, they were a monarchy, there's been a revolution since, the borders were drastically different....

461 Gus  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:13:35pm

re: #444 ggt

SEE!

It can't be!!!!

462 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:13:37pm

re: #456 Lidane

Pink!

Pink!

463 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:14:36pm

re: #461 Gus

It can't be!!!

OMG, Manpurse!

464 Gus  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:15:51pm

re: #463 Conversation Kills

OMG, Manpurse!

Man purse, hot pants and espadrilles!!!

465 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:15:54pm

How about a win-win scenario. Capitalists for a Single-Payer Health Care system.

The medical system is not an actual industry intended to make huge profits, its just how workers get repaired so they can go back to work.

466 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:16:24pm

re: #465 Mich-again

How about a win-win scenario. Capitalists for a Single-Payer Health Care system.

The medical system is not an actual industry intended to make huge profits, its just how workers get repaired so they can go back to work.

That sounds like a plan I can get behind!

467 prairiefire  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:18:28pm

re: #428 Conversation Kills

It also needs some of those truck balls.

OMG, we have a local idiot in a huge white truck with those things hanging off the back license plate.

468 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:19:50pm

re: #467 prairiefire

OMG, we have a local idiot in a huge white truck with those things hanging off the back license plate.

That's a real thing? What kind of retard has that?

469 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:21:33pm

re: #467 prairiefire

OMG, we have a local idiot in a huge white truck with those things hanging off the back license plate.

Because of our oil industry we've had a massive influx of people from Alberta, complete with lifted F350s and truck balls. I'm really tempted to carry around a can of pink spray paint to 'effeminize' their big dangly man balls.

470 prairiefire  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:23:11pm

re: #468 BryanS

That's a real thing? What kind of retard has that?

Yes, it is a real thing. Aggressive, right leaning, overly macho (over compensating for idiotness) men living in Missouri have those things.
[Link: bumpernuts.com...]

471 sagehen  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:23:21pm

re: #449 jamesfirecat

Lets be clear Buck, the issue I have with any plan involving vouchers is not the reduced amount of medicare assistance that some people get, it is that those people have to then purchase healthcare on the public market rather than having a govenrment system they can depend on.

Did your plan involve having people with reduced benefits having to buy healthcare on the public market?

Is this the right place to mention that approximately 1/3 of seniors have cognitive defects? They truly are incapable, through no fault of their own, of making informed comparative decisions about esoteric insurance plans (assuming they're even physically capable of reading the fine print....)

473 palomino  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:31:29pm

re: #457 Buck

The 2013 budget that Ryan unveiled picks up some important features, including the Medicare option (for james), from the Ryan-Wyden plan. It would create a competitive-bidding process to determine the annual increase in the government voucher, forcing health plans and the Medicare program to compete for patients. The federal subsidy would be based on the second- least-expensive plan in each market. Ryan would means-test Medicare by subsidizing the poor more and the wealthy less. And beginning in 2023, he would increase gradually the Medicare eligibility age until it reaches 67 in 2034.

[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

That all sounds reasonable until you get to the Ayn Rand part of the plan where large tax cuts go to the wealthy and large cuts in govt. services go to the poor.

474 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:32:16pm

A spreading sinus infection is kicking the shit out of this old man so I'm off to bed.

Try to keep the yelling and hollering down, 'K?

475 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:35:04pm

re: #473 palomino

That all sounds reasonable until you get to the Ayn Rand part of the plan where large tax cuts go to the wealthy and large cuts in govt. services go to the poor.

If the plan for Medicare is good, then let's keep that and argue about the rest. Medicare has to be majorly reformed, all on this forum agree on that. If Congressman Ryan has a good start on how to do that, then that's a good thing. He's not Andy Schlafley, after all.

476 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:38:38pm

re: #475 Dark_Falcon

If the plan for Medicare is good, then let's keep that and argue about the rest. Medicare has to be majorly reformed, all on this forum agree on that. If Congressman Ryan has a good start on how to do that, then that's a good thing. He's not Andy Schlafley, after all.

Status quo isn't a plan. I know that is a Ryan talking point, but it is true. Doing nothing is a great way to end medicare as we know it.

477 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:39:03pm

I"m getting some real shit on my fb from men.

I'm getting really cynical about this.

478 Interesting Times  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:40:10pm

re: #477 ggt

I"m getting some real shit on my fb from men.

I'm getting really cynical about this.

Don't get cynical, get even. Help a woman, minority, or young person register to vote.

479 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:40:35pm

re: #477 ggt

I"m getting some real shit on my fb from men.

I'm getting really cynical about this.

over what?

480 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:41:38pm

re: #479 BryanS

over what?

The focus on women's morals and behavior.

I seriously wouldn't be suprised is the Whacko's start using Fox News to brainwash their viewers into thinking any sexually active woman is a succubus.

I think the Chrisitan Taliban is going to come-down fast and hard on the whole nation.

481 prairiefire  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:42:42pm

re: #477 ggt

I"m getting some real shit on my fb from men.

I'm getting really cynical about this.

I think you can figure a solid 30% of the public is going to be strongly against whatever advocacy group you are working for. That's the price we pay for free speech in our Republic.

482 Interesting Times  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:43:21pm

re: #480 ggt

The focus on women's morals and behavior.

In response, don't say anything - just post a link to the wikipedia page on the Taliban. Or "honor" killings.

483 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:44:47pm

re: #477 ggt

I"m getting some real shit on my fb from men.

I'm getting really cynical about this.

See it as interesting. Those with so little at stake care too much. It creeps me out too. And I'll never hang with those men once I realize.

484 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:45:03pm

Converting political foes is like trying to tear a cotton ball in half. If you pull to hard, the resistance is great and the task seems impossible. But if you tug lightly, its much easier.

485 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:46:25pm

re: #483 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

See it as interesting. Those with so little at stake care too much. It creeps me out too. And I'll never hang with those men once I realize.

This is what I don't understand --everyone has a stake in this.

EVERYONE!

486 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:46:37pm

And the best strategy for the truly entrenched foes is ridicule. There is no defense against that.

487 prairiefire  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:46:56pm

re: #483 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Me, neither! Nor most American women. It adds to their sense of victimization because, of course, they are not the problem. It's those ****s who can't take a joke.

488 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:47:48pm

re: #480 ggt

The focus on women's morals and behavior.

I seriously wouldn't be suprised is the Whacko's start using Fox News to brainwash their viewers into thinking any sexually active woman is a succubus.

In what way? Sorry if you mention what your facebook page post was about upthread. At any rate, consenting sexual activity shouldn't be anyone's business but the consenting parties. There will always be those people who think they know how to run your life better than you do.

489 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:49:27pm

re: #488 BryanS

In what way? Sorry if you mention what your facebook page post was about upthread. At any rate, consenting sexual activity shouldn't be anyone's business but the consenting parties. There will always be those people who think they know how to run your life better than you do.

Reproductive Rights --people/men only see ABORTION --no memories of their younger days --no idea that they could actually have kids out there they don't know about or have had relations and caused an unwanted pregnancy and an abortion.

Men sometimes seem to think they know so much. They don't.

490 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:50:18pm

When people only turn on one channel on their TV and that is all they watch . . .

491 Interesting Times  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:50:31pm

re: #484 Mich-again

Converting political foes is like trying to tear a cotton ball in half. If you pull to hard, the resistance is great and the task seems impossible. But if you tug lightly, its much easier.

Good analogy, but it only applies to political foes who haven't plunged over the cliff of the conservative cult. As Renaissance_Man has so eloquently pointed out on many an occasion, they care about hating liberals and nothing else. They'll even accept harm to themselves if it means destroying something they think liberals like. Attempting to reason with people like this is like trying to pick up a dog turd from the clean end.

492 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:50:44pm

re: #485 ggt

This is what I don't understand --everyone has a stake in this.

EVERYONE!

True true true. But in our society, each for themselves, they do no realize this. And usually they never have to.

493 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:51:45pm

re: #491 Interesting Times

Good analogy, but it only applies to political foes who haven't plunged over the cliff of the conservative cult. As Renaissance_Man has so eloquently pointed out on a many an occasion, they care about hating liberals and nothing else. They'll even accept harm to themselves if it means destroying something they think liberals like. Attempting to reason with people like this is like trying to pick up a dog turd from the clean end.

Yeah, when trying to COMMUNICATE, I get the ad hominem "liberal" everytime. Like I should think that is an insult. I'm going to Hell if I don't repudiate it?

494 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:53:23pm

It's the US and THEM mentality.

Hopefully it will be bred-out in the next 50 years or so.

495 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:53:50pm

I think the problem is many men never try to empathize with the woman's position. I can't imagine being pregnant and dealing with the self-righteous judgmental bullshit that a lot of women deal with. And there is a double standard still in our society about sex.

496 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:54:02pm

re: #491 Interesting Times

Good analogy, but it only applies to political foes who haven't plunged over the cliff of the conservative cult. As Renaissance_Man has so eloquently pointed out on a many an occasion, they care about hating liberals and nothing else. They'll even accept harm to themselves if it means destroying something they think liberals like. Attempting to reason with people like this is like trying to pick up a dog turd from the clean end.

Not all or even most conservatives are like that. But many of those who are are very noisy so they attract a disproportionate portion of the attention.

497 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:55:18pm

re: #489 ggt

Reproductive Rights --people/men only see ABORTION --no memories of their younger days --no idea that they could actually have kids out there they don't know about or have had relations and caused an unwanted pregnancy and an abortion.

Men sometimes seem to think they know so much. They don't.

I blame religion more than anything for the sex obsessed nanny state tendencies of the social cons.

498 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:55:21pm

re: #491 Interesting Times

Attempting to reason with people like this is like trying to pick up a dog turd from the clean end.

Most the people forced to spend time with these sorts either give up or give in. They need an intervention to pull them out and the only way to do that is to ridicule them.

499 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:55:44pm

re: #496 Dark_Falcon

Not all or even most conservatives are like that. But many of those who are are very noisy so they attract a disproportionate portion of the attention.

Well, don't keep quiet -- These Whackos are going to drive us back to the Dark Ages --like the Islamists they insist are so awful.

I don't see any difference.

500 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:56:08pm

ggt, you are awesome. I wish I had the energy right now, because this is the fight to have. I'm signing off, but i'm hell yeahing everything.

501 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 8:57:26pm

re: #500 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

ggt, you are awesome. I wish I had the energy right now, because this is the fight to have. I'm signing off, but i'm hell yeahing everything.

Thanks. I will not stop.

It's been my issue since I was a teenager --I am well versed and I won't EVER stop.

502 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:01:35pm

re: #497 BryanS

I blame religion more than anything for the sex obsessed nanny state tendencies of the social cons.

I blame individuals wanting power and using religion to that end.

503 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:03:00pm

re: #496 Dark_Falcon

Not all or even most conservatives are like that. But many of those who are are very noisy so they attract a disproportionate portion of the attention.

Do you think Conservapedia represents true conservatism or do you think it represents more of a fringe element?

504 Interesting Times  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:03:52pm

re: #496 Dark_Falcon

Not all or even most conservatives are like that.

Teabagging types most certainly are. So are the fox/limbaugh dittoheads. And 99% of the GOPers in power play upon that fear and prejudice to stay in power, America's welfare be damned.

505 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:06:30pm

re: #497 BryanS

I blame religion more than anything for the sex obsessed nanny state tendencies of the social cons.

I blame those with very weak faith for promoting the ridiculous notion that God needs them to defend him. If these people had the faith the size of a mustard seed they would know that God does not need them at all.

506 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:07:15pm

re: #505 Mich-again

I blame those with very weak faith for promoting the ridiculous notion that God needs them to defend him. If these people had the faith the size of a mustard seed they would know that God does not need them at all.

insecurity --need to feel important, need to feel needed.

507 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:09:25pm

re: #506 ggt

insecurity --need to feel important, need to feel needed.

God needs us! haha

That is the motto of the Tea Party/GOP. God created everythingbut his very existence depends on Mitt Romney becoming President. And they lap it up..

508 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:09:46pm

re: #503 Mich-again

Do you think Conservapedia represents true conservatism or do you think it represents more of a fringe element?

I think its more of a fringe. It's not well featured, even on most right-wing blogs.

509 goddamnedfrank  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:10:59pm

re: #496 Dark_Falcon

Not all or even most conservatives are like that. But many of those who are are very noisy so they attract a disproportionate portion of the attention.

You know what's really frustrating, they way you try to separate yourself from the Republican brand when it suits you while repeating much of their same baseless BS. But that's not the worst of it, what is really intolerable is the way you run away when asked to back up these kinds of assertions with a single example. And you don't just dodge these kinds of questions once. They get repeated and answered by silence.

This pattern of behavior is seriously impossible to respect, if you say something that you simply can't back up with even a single example the very least you can do is acknowledge that fact.

510 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:14:11pm

re: #508 Dark_Falcon

I think its more of a fringe. It's not well featured, even on most right-wing blogs.

Yet they don't dare stop by to correct their BS like the part about how the Earth is 6,000 years old and the dinosaurs were all plant eaters and they rode around on Noah's ark?

Maybe because the RW leadership including Mitt enjoys the loyal support from the dupes even though they know they are all total whack jobs? Nice coalition.

511 Lidane  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:16:00pm

re: #510 Mich-again

Maybe because the RW leadership including Mitt enjoys the loyal support from the dupes even though they know they are all total whack jobs? Nice coalition.

Image: voting_republican.jpg

512 Lidane  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:18:10pm

As usual, John Scalzi gives people something to talk about:

Straight White Male: The Lowest Difficulty Setting There Is

Comments are pretty good because Scalzi isn't afraid to bring down the banhammer on idiots and trolls. He says as much in the first comment.

513 palomino  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:18:43pm

re: #475 Dark_Falcon

If the plan for Medicare is good, then let's keep that and argue about the rest. Medicare has to be majorly reformed, all on this forum agree on that. If Congressman Ryan has a good start on how to do that, then that's a good thing. He's not Andy Schlafley, after all.

I didn't accuse Ryan of being a religious zealot or mentally challenged.

I just don't see how tax cuts + military increases = balanced budget. Even the supposed Medicare savings won't come close to doing the trick.

514 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:20:15pm

re: #511 Lidane

That sums it up eggs-actly and I wish I could give it more updings.

515 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:21:30pm

re: #513 palomino

I didn't accuse Ryan of being a religious zealot or mentally challenged.

I just don't see how tax cuts + military increases = balanced budget. Even the supposed Medicare savings won't come close to doing the trick.

I don't either. If Ryan is to be taken seriously, he should be listening to people from the Pentagon who agree on the need for defense cuts. Instead, I believe Ryan claimed that the DoD officials were lying. I also hope he realizes cutting social programs is going to piss a lot of people off. People think those programs are just waste but they benefit real people. Take the Meals on Wheels program that Barton supports gutting for example.

516 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:22:58pm

re: #513 palomino

I didn't accuse Ryan of being a religious zealot or mentally challenged.

I just don't see how tax cuts + military increases = balanced budget. Even the supposed Medicare savings won't come close to doing the trick.

Most of the money for DoD is to until the sequester from the super-committee's inability to agree. The DoD has said clearly that it needs the money the sequester would cut.

517 palomino  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:23:05pm

re: #496 Dark_Falcon

Not all or even most conservatives are like that. But many of those who are are very noisy so they attract a disproportionate portion of the attention.

Really? Then why do half of Republicans still believe Obama is a Muslim from another country?

That's some viciously poisonous shit they believe, and it's not just Orly Taitz and the loudmouths at WND.

518 Interesting Times  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:23:24pm

On this note, it's been noted that, while liberals tend to assign more important to the values of care and fairness, conservatives assign more importance to authority, sanctity, and purity.

This is how "conservatives" end up doing horrible, evil things.

Think about it - should "purity" as a concept ever be applied to human beings? Throughout history and on into the present day, what has such emphasis on "purity" wrought?

- female genital mutilation
- honor killings
- "You shouldn't have been wearing that dress"
- racism ("Keep the white race pure!")
- bigotry
- genocide

So I'm going to just come right out and say it - if you use the concept of "purity" to describe anything other than food, water, chemical compounds, cleaning products or dog breeds, you might be what's wrong with the world.

519 prairiefire  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:23:43pm

re: #493 ggt

Yeah, when trying to COMMUNICATE, I get the ad hominem "liberal" everytime. Like I should think that is an insult. I'm going to Hell if I don't repudiate it?

No, and please don't feel the need to repudiate it. They are using that as a bullying tactic.

520 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:24:21pm

re: #512 Lidane

As usual, John Scalzi gives people something to talk about:

Straight White Male: The Lowest Difficulty Setting There Is

Comments are pretty good because Scalzi isn't afraid to bring down the banhammer on idiots and trolls. He says as much in the first comment.

Brilliant!

521 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:25:10pm

re: #519 prairiefire

No, and please don't feel the need to repudiate it. They are using that as a bullying tactic.

I know, I ignore it.

522 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:26:02pm

re: #517 palomino

Really? Then why do half of Republicans still believe Obama is a Muslim from another country?

That's some viciously poisonous shit they believe, and it's not just Orly Taitz and the loudmouths at WND.

Really, one only has to look at the political book section on Amazon to realize that it's not just limited to so called fringe conservatives. D'Sousa has a stupid book out that proclaims to get to the root of Obama's "hatred" of America, etc. This is a cottage industry by many conservative writers where the president isn't wrong on a policy, he's a sinister outsider out to destroy all we stand for which is why shocker we hear nuts shouting at Romney rallies that the president needs to be charged with treason.

523 palomino  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:26:26pm

re: #516 Dark_Falcon

Most of the money for DoD is to until the sequester from the super-committee's inability to agree. The DoD has said clearly that it needs the money the sequester would cut.

OK, so Ryan's rate of military spending increase isn't quite as high as some Dems may protest.

But you're still not answering the basic question: how do military hikes (even if small) plus more tax cuts = a balanced budget?

Why will Romney not have the same unbalanced budgets Bush did, considering the similarity in his approach.

524 prairiefire  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:27:35pm

re: #521 ggt

I know, I ignore it.

I'm going to work for Team Obama canvassing neighborhoods. I hope to get around $11.00 an hour. I will start mid June, so hopefully I won't have "faggots getting married" ringing in my ears all day.

525 palomino  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:28:38pm

re: #524 prairiefire

I'm going to work for Team Obama canvassing neighborhoods. I hope to get around $11.00 an hour. I will start mid June, so hopefully I won't have "faggots getting married" ringing in my ears all day.

What state do you live in?

526 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:29:02pm

re: #524 prairiefire

I'm going to work for Team Obama canvassing neighborhoods. I hope to get around $11.00 an hour. I will start mid June, so hopefully I won't have "faggots getting married" ringing in my ears all day.

I wish you well with that. I was phonebanking for a state senator last fall. Guy says so and so is an asshole. Was thinking sheesh man, you're entitled to your opinion but don't take out your anger on me. Besides he was the one coming across as the asshole not the state senator. If I ever do campaign work again, I'd rather canvass than phone bank.

527 Interesting Times  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:30:36pm

re: #522 HappyWarrior

Really, one only has to look at the political book section on Amazon to realize that it's not just limited to so called fringe conservatives. D'Sousa has a stupid book out

Dinesh "douche" D'Souza is a sniveling little woman-hating piece of filth who made excuses for the Taliban. Fuck him with an oil-drilling rig.

528 prairiefire  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:31:34pm

re: #525 palomino

What state do you live in?

Missouri.

529 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:31:49pm

I think the best way to campaign for the DNC is to spread links to the GOP sites.

530 prairiefire  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:32:36pm

re: #526 HappyWarrior

Meh, with a phone bank there is air conditioning. : )

531 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:33:07pm

re: #527 Interesting Times

D'Sousa is a sniveling little woman-hating piece of filth who made excuses for the Taliban. Fuck him with an oil-drilling rig.

That's the book I'm talking about. "The Roots of Obama's Rage." Funny the only one raging there is D'Sousa who has his head up his ass. And I think even less of him after reading that. Not saying much because I already thought he was a creep.

532 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:33:40pm

re: #530 prairiefire

Meh, with a phone bank there is air conditioning. : )

True but you can't get a buddy to phonebank with. With canvassing you can. Hey mild social anxiety and all that jazz.

533 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:33:44pm

re: #528 prairiefire

Missouri.

MO has a reputation as a state with a lot of loyalty to unions. Can you say Alberici?

534 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:34:37pm

re: #523 palomino

OK, so Ryan's rate of military spending increase isn't quite as high as some Dems may protest.

But you're still not answering the basic question: how do military hikes (even if small) plus more tax cuts = a balanced budget?

Why will Romney not have the same unbalanced budgets Bush did, considering the similarity in his approach.

Because non-military spending is to be cut. Romney may be wanting to use tax cuts as an economic booster, edging them back up once things have improved. However, that's not something I can prove, so tkae it with a 1/8 teaspoon of salt.

535 Lidane  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:35:09pm

re: #527 Interesting Times

Dinesh "douche" D'Souza is a sniveling little woman-hating piece of filth who made excuses for the Taliban. Fuck him with an oil-drilling rig.

Why do you hate oil drilling rigs?

///

536 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:35:28pm

re: #531 HappyWarrior

That's the book I'm talking about. "The Roots of Obama's Rage." Funny the only one raging there is D'Sousa who has his head up his ass. And I think even less of him after reading that. Not saying much because I already thought he was a creep.

I actually respected him before he wrote that. But not afterward, not after he proved himself a hater.

537 palomino  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:36:04pm

re: #522 HappyWarrior

Really, one only has to look at the political book section on Amazon to realize that it's not just limited to so called fringe conservatives. D'Sousa has a stupid book out that proclaims to get to the root of Obama's "hatred" of America, etc. This is a cottage industry by many conservative writers where the president isn't wrong on a policy, he's a sinister outsider out to destroy all we stand for.

And the pathology you describe is so strong that killing bin Laden, killing 30+ other top AQ leaders, killing (indirectly) Qaddafi, ramping up in Afghanistan, etc. means nothing. Obama still hates America in their eyes, deserves no credit, and anything he does militarily has some sort of ulterior motive.

For Bush's entire second term, when things were deteriorating precipitously at home and abroad, the Republicans had only one theme to fall back on in defending their 22% approval rating president--"at least he kept us safe." How many Republicans have even suggested Obama deserves such credit, despite the lack of terrorist attacks on US soil?

538 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:37:02pm

re: #536 Dark_Falcon

I actually respected him before he wrote that. But not afterward, not after he proved himself a hater.

Can you as a conservative explain to me why so many of them seem to think Obama is this self-loathing American? Really it's probably one of the most inane criticisms I've ever seen thrown at a president especially one that has taken our national security as seriously as Obama does.

539 palomino  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:38:18pm

re: #528 prairiefire

Missouri.

Battleground. IIRC, MO and IN were the two closest states in 2008. Obama barely lost MO, barely won IN.

What's your sense of the mood of the state, and is there much chance of MO becoming more blue over the next 5-10 years?

540 Obdicut  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:39:06pm

re: #534 Dark_Falcon

So you're saying Romney would reduce non-military spending in order to spend more money on the military?

What enemy is it that we need to arm ourselves against, Dark? Who is the threatening power that we need to stand armed against, and in what ways are we insufficiently armed?

I mean, aside from having tons and tons of pet projects that have gone fucking nowhere or wound up being craptastic, wasting billions and billions of dollars. And they still have amazingly terrible accounting, misplacing billions through sheer paperwork loss.


Why do you want to fund them more, instead of having them spend time making sure the money they're spending is being spent well? That's what I'd like for them, and for the rest of the government; not idiotic attempts to just cut wildly, but actually figuring out what it is we need, and then finding the cheapest and most efficient ways to do that.

That goes for the military, too, and I don't understand the reflexive action of supposed fiscal conservatives to just automatically want to fund the military more.

541 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:40:09pm

re: #537 palomino

And the pathology you describe is so strong that killing bin Laden, killing 30+ other top AQ leaders, killing (indirectly) Qaddafi, ramping up in Afghanistan, etc. means nothing. Obama still hates America in their eyes, deserves no credit, and anything he does militarily has some sort of ulterior motive.

For Bush's entire second term, when things were deteriorating precipitously at home and abroad, the Republicans had only one theme to fall back on in defending their 22% approval rating president--"at least he kept us safe." How many Republicans have even suggested Obama deserves such credit, despite the lack of terrorist attacks on US soil?

You get no argument from me there. It totally mystifies me. It's almost like they're hellbent on keeping the narrative they've created of Obama that he's this guy who hates America and wants it to fail because he's got this deepseated rage against the nation. I don't see that from him and I don't think most people do but when you got partisan blinders on like many of these guys do, I guess that helps.

542 Obdicut  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:40:15pm

re: #536 Dark_Falcon

Oh, and if you could man up and give a single example of the left supporting equality of outcome instead of equality of opportunity, that'd be awesome, but I seriously don't think you've been able to come up with something.

I'd like to think that has made you think on the subject, but you've probably just avoided thinking about it, if your previous statements can be relied on.

543 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:40:48pm

re: #540 Obdicut

So you're saying Romney would reduce non-military spending in order to spend more money on the military?

What enemy is it that we need to arm ourselves against, Dark? Who is the threatening power that we need to stand armed against, and in what ways are we insufficiently armed?

I mean, aside from having tons and tons of pet projects that have gone fucking nowhere or wound up being craptastic, wasting billions and billions of dollars. And they still have amazingly terrible accounting, misplacing billions through sheer paperwork loss.

Why do you want to fund them more, instead of having them spend time making sure the money they're spending is being spent well? That's what I'd like for them, and for the rest of the government; not idiotic attempts to just cut wildly, but actually figuring out what it is we need, and then finding the cheapest and most efficient ways to do that.

That goes for the military, too, and I don't understand the reflexive action of supposed fiscal conservatives to just automatically want to fund the military more.

Oh man you nailed how I feel about spending as a whole.

544 palomino  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:41:46pm

re: #534 Dark_Falcon

Because non-military spending is to be cut. Romney may be wanting to use tax cuts as an economic booster, edging them back up once things have improved. However, that's not something I can prove, so tkae it with a 1/8 teaspoon of salt.

Salt agreed. I just don't see the numbers adding up; I know Bush increased spending and Romney promises not to, but that alone won't fix the deficit.

Fact: only one formula has worked in the last 35 years to produce a balanced budget: late 90s with both budget cuts and tax hikes. Otherwise it's a pipe dream.

545 b_sharp  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:42:08pm

re: #499 ggt

Well, don't keep quiet -- These Whackos are going to drive us back to the Dark Ages --like the Islamists they insist are so awful.

I don't see any difference.

Do you need any help?

I'm laying in bed with my tablet and a wet cloth on my forehead now, but I should be capable tomorrow.

If so my nic is blue.

546 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:43:34pm

Actually, I think I'm going to go to bed. I was narcoleptic today, and so I'm going to get some extra sleep to help me work better tomorrow.

547 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:44:04pm

re: #534 Dark_Falcon

Romney may be wanting to use tax cuts as an economic booster, edging them back up once things have improved.

OK here is a real world problem the GOP hates to ponder. So imagine there is a city with a lot of unskilled workers who need to get a job. Unfortunately, they are too poor to own cars and there is no reliable public transportation to get them to where the jobs are, out in the suburbs.

So WTF are they supposed to do to earn a living? The GOP loves to just truncate it with the message "Get a Job, loser". or maybe say, well if we give enough millionaires tax beaks then maybe one of them will create a job for them people. But really, what are the options? Rush et al are the ones who will say both A) get a job you freeloader. and B) We don't need public transportation.

548 prairiefire  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:44:33pm

re: #533 Mich-again

MO has a reputation as a state with a lot of loyalty to unions. Can you say Alberici?

It still is an ongoing battle:[Link: talkingunion.wordpress.com...]

549 palomino  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:46:06pm

re: #540 Obdicut

So you're saying Romney would reduce non-military spending in order to spend more money on the military?

What enemy is it that we need to arm ourselves against, Dark? Who is the threatening power that we need to stand armed against, and in what ways are we insufficiently armed?

I mean, aside from having tons and tons of pet projects that have gone fucking nowhere or wound up being craptastic, wasting billions and billions of dollars. And they still have amazingly terrible accounting, misplacing billions through sheer paperwork loss.

Why do you want to fund them more, instead of having them spend time making sure the money they're spending is being spent well? That's what I'd like for them, and for the rest of the government; not idiotic attempts to just cut wildly, but actually figuring out what it is we need, and then finding the cheapest and most efficient ways to do that.

That goes for the military, too, and I don't understand the reflexive action of supposed fiscal conservatives to just automatically want to fund the military more.

According to the gop nominee, we need to worry about the great Russian bear...they are our biggest potential enemy. What a load of crap.

At a certain point (maybe the US spending as much as the other 95% of the world combined) the whole military-industrial complex that Ike warned of becomes a sort of over-the-top and self-reinforcing joke.

550 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:46:30pm

re: #547 Mich-again

OK here is a real world problem the GOP hates to ponder. So imagine there is a city with a lot of unskilled workers who need to get a job. Unfortunately, they are too poor to own cars and there is no reliable public transportation to get them to where the jobs are, out in the suburbs.

So WTF are they supposed to do to earn a living? The GOP loves to just truncate it with the message "Get a Job, loser". or maybe say, well if we give enough millionaires tax beaks then maybe one of them will create a job for them people. But really, what are the options? Rush et al are the ones who will say both A) get a job you freeloader. and B) We don't need public transportation.

Speaking of public transportation, there's idiots out here railing against the proposed addition to the Metro system. Yet you know as well as I do that these will be the same people pissed off about traffic congestation. That's why I favor more investment in public transit for urban/suburban areas. It cuts down traffic, probably helps the environment, etc.

551 prairiefire  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:46:43pm

re: #548 prairiefire

"Talking Union". It looks like a very good place:[Link: talkingunion.wordpress.com...]

552 palomino  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:50:31pm

re: #547 Mich-again

OK here is a real world problem the GOP hates to ponder. So imagine there is a city with a lot of unskilled workers who need to get a job. Unfortunately, they are too poor to own cars and there is no reliable public transportation to get them to where the jobs are, out in the suburbs.

So WTF are they supposed to do to earn a living? The GOP loves to just truncate it with the message "Get a Job, loser". or maybe say, well if we give enough millionaires tax beaks then maybe one of them will create a job for them people. But really, what are the options? Rush et al are the ones who will say both A) get a job you freeloader. and B) We don't need public transportation.

Just one more area where the US is behind most of the developed world. "We're No. 1", except in all those categories where we're not even close to no. 1. This is something the "American Exceptionalism Forever" crowd doesn't want to hear, so it remains blissfully ignorant that the US isn't actually number one anymore in that many areas.

553 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:53:19pm

re: #552 palomino

Just one more area where the US is behind most of the developed world. "We're No. 1", except in all those categories where we're not even close to no. 1. This is something the "American Exceptionalism Forever" crowd doesn't want to hear, so it remains blissfully ignorant that the US isn't actually number one anymore in that many areas.

We'd rather hear how we're special than we need to improve. Some people take saying the latter as saying our country isn't great. It's quite the opposite, it's saying let's do more as this nation's best years are ahead but the Bryan Fischers and David Bartons of the world would rather say we lost our way and the mythical past was better. The past is always better to someone like that because they never had to live it. It's something that many romantics tend to ignore when they look nostalgically on the past.

554 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:53:23pm

re: #550 HappyWarrior

That's why I favor more investment in public transit for urban/suburban areas. It cuts down traffic, probably helps the environment, etc.

Cars get a much lower fuel economy rating for city driving than for highway driving because of all the stops and starts, not because of the lower speed. The less traffic there is, the better mileage drivers get.

This is why it is asinine for GOP leaders like Christie from NJ to oppose infrastructure projects in order to save taxpayers money. If the traffic jams persist, then all drivers spend more money on gas because of the lower fuel efficiency due to all the stops and starts. But the GOP can't compute that because it seems too incongruous for the loyal followers. Don't try to explain chess strategy to people who can only comprehend checkers.

555 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:54:13pm

re: #512 Lidane

As usual, John Scalzi gives people something to talk about:

Straight White Male: The Lowest Difficulty Setting There Is

Comments are pretty good because Scalzi isn't afraid to bring down the banhammer on idiots and trolls. He says as much in the first comment.

Not so fast on the assumption that men always have it easier. A lot has changed in just a couple decades.

-women are a majority of college grads. The disparity in admissions has gotten so bad, that colleges have quietly started instituting affirmative action policies for men. More women than men hold graduate degrees. Since this is true for the general population, the statistics among the young where the trend has set in and continued is even more stark. Men are only staying above the 40% mark of college degrees because campuses are enacting affirmative action at that threshold.
-women under thirty earn more than men under thirty
-the leading cause of death among young males is suicide or homicide
-men die younger than women

Take a moment and suspend judgment and listen to this debate where the prevailing side at this intelligence squared debate switch the opinion of 40% the attendees to vote in favor of the proposition that "men are finished" compared to before the debate. (no, this is not a conservative audience, it is made up of mostly very educated debate oriented folks-- debates on religion in this forum for instance typically lose 2-1 or worse against the side of faith) [Link: intelligencesquaredus.org...]

or just review some of the debate reference material from the participants:
[Link: intelligencesquaredus.org...]

556 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 9:59:13pm

re: #554 Mich-again

Cars get a much lower fuel economy rating for city driving than for highway driving because of all the stops and starts, not because of the lower speed. The less traffic there is, the better mileage drivers get.

This is why it is asinine for GOP leaders like Christie from NJ to oppose infrastructure projects in order to save taxpayers money. If the traffic jams persist, then all drivers spend more money on gas because of the lower fuel efficiency due to all the stops and starts. But the GOP can't compute that because it seems too incongruous for the loyal followers. Don't try to explain chess strategy to people who can only comprehend checkers.

Right. Honestly, I've seen the benefits of public transit even on a small town basis. The bus system here is pretty efficient. Gets me to work on time and has cut down on gas mileage. Now it does mean I have to get up earlier but that's more inconvenience than policy weakness.

557 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:02:04pm

re: #538 HappyWarrior

Can you as a conservative explain to me why so many of them seem to think Obama is this self-loathing American? Really it's probably one of the most inane criticisms I've ever seen thrown at a president especially one that has taken our national security as seriously as Obama does.

xenophobia

558 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:03:47pm

re: #557 ggt

xenophobia

I tend to agree but I was honestly curious to hear DF's thoughts on that as a conservative. He knows as well as me and you do that Obama's not the sinister outsider who loathes America and wants to destroy it out of a petty revenge fantasy which is something you see many conservative commentators argue about him.

559 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:06:03pm

re: #558 HappyWarrior

I tend to agree but I was honestly curious to hear DF's thoughts on that as a conservative. He knows as well as me and you do that Obama's not the sinister outsider who loathes America and wants to destroy it out of a petty revenge fantasy which is something you see many conservative commentators argue about him.

I can fill in for DF until he replies, but the extremism is really simple to explain--blinded by partisanship. Bush derangement syndrome was a similar phenomenon.

560 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:06:50pm

re: #545 Ghost of Insanity

Do you need any help?

I'm laying in bed with my tablet and a wet cloth on my forehead now, but I should be capable tomorrow.

If so my nic is blue.

THanks, yes, I sent you an email

feel better.

561 prairiefire  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:07:30pm

re: #539 palomino

Well, I think every state will become more "blue" as we define it now in 10 years, simply because of the change coming from the younger voters.
In MO right now, I would say that much of the anger over the Health Care law has dissipated, having been absorbed in the 2010 election cycle. I don't think the right wing is as assured of it's repeal.
When I go out, I will be framing it as a clear choice between worker's, women's and civil rights for gays, or a choice against them in 2012.
I was heartened by the strength of the populist sentiment when I recently did some petition work.

562 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:07:50pm

re: #549 palomino

According to the gop nominee, we need to worry about the great Russian bear...they are our biggest potential enemy. What a load of crap.

At a certain point (maybe the US spending as much as the other 95% of the world combined) the whole military-industrial complex that Ike warned of becomes a sort of over-the-top and self-reinforcing joke.

US vs Them mindset doesn't work if there isn't an enemy.

563 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:09:43pm

re: #559 BryanS

I can fill in for DF until he replies, but the extremism is really simple to explain--blinded by partisanship. Bush derangement syndrome was a similar phenomenon.

Fair enough.

564 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:10:22pm

re: #556 HappyWarrior

Right. Honestly, I've seen the benefits of public transit even on a small town basis. The bus system here is pretty efficient. Gets me to work on time and has cut down on gas mileage. Now it does mean I have to get up earlier but that's more inconvenience than policy weakness.

The win-win from public transportation is that as people use less fuel, the prices for fuel fall. This should be the focus of a conservative agenda. Conserving resources to make them cheaper. Instead we have dimwits like Rush, Palin and Romney pimping the drill baby drill solution.

So then, test the logic with an extreme example. Say for instance we drilled so much oil that gasoline got extremely cheap, like a dollar per gallon. That would create so much more traffic that we would all need more and more fuel (and time) to get where we needed to go because traffic would get exponentially worse. The self correcting factor points out how the drill baby drill strategy is flawed.

565 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:10:47pm

Does anyone ever stop and wonder why people can't get jobs --could it be that we've reached a critical mass --we have too many people?

I haven't done the research on this, but I don't see how we can keep creating jobs when the population is growing.

I heard that when "Obama get's his tyranny" he'll start controlling population levels . . .

Well, it will have to happen somehow, someway --better Individual Choice --no?

566 Mich-again  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:13:36pm

re: #561 prairiefire

Well, I think every state will become more "blue" as we define it now in 10 years, simply because of the change coming from the younger voters.

The Father Coughlin generation is fading fast..

567 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:13:39pm

re: #565 ggt

Does anyone ever stop and wonder why people can't get jobs --could it be that we've reached a critical mass --we have too many people?

I haven't done the research on this, but I don't see how we can keep creating jobs when the population is growing.

I heard that when "Obama get's his tyranny" he'll start controlling population levels . . .

Well, it will have to happen somehow, someway --better Individual Choice --no?

You know not to defend the infamous Chinese One Child policy but alot of people use it as an example of the excesses of Communism and Marxism, when in actuality, it was more of a response to China's growing neo-captailist economy established after Mao Zedong's death. I'm not sure what the solution is really. I'm just glad I'm never running for office. Thankless job really.

568 prairiefire  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:17:44pm

Thanks for this forum, Charles!
Night, lizards.

569 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:18:35pm

re: #565 ggt

Does anyone ever stop and wonder why people can't get jobs --could it be that we've reached a critical mass --we have too many people?

I haven't done the research on this, but I don't see how we can keep creating jobs when the population is growing.

I heard that when "Obama get's his tyranny" he'll start controlling population levels . . .

Well, it will have to happen somehow, someway --better Individual Choice --no?

heh :)

There's no such thing as too many people in my humble opinion. As long as population is growing, the economy grows. We've never tried (intentionally anyway) shrinking population. We'll see how that turns out in the immigration averse, low birthrate countries of Europe and East Asia. Turns out raising kids takes a lot of work--from diapers to daycare, a good birthrate helps drive the economy. I'd me more concerned about a decreasing population than an increasing one--and on that note, can we increase the quotas for legal immigration in this country already?

570 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:19:51pm

re: #567 HappyWarrior

You know not to defend the infamous Chinese One Child policy but alot of people use it as an example of the excesses of Communism and Marxism, when in actuality, it was more of a response to China's growing neo-captailist economy established after Mao Zedong's death. I'm not sure what the solution is really. I'm just glad I'm never running for office. Thankless job really.

No, I don't defend the lack of individual choice in China --State mandated population control is anethma to me. India did forced sterilizations as well. There is a very well documented forced breeding in Bosia after the ethnic cleansing.

I do think it is rather clear that the Planet cannot support all the humans we've so successfully bred, and kept alive. Where would China be if they hadn't instituted their plan? They have a real problem with the number of people they have.

Without Comprehensive Education and Cost-free Contraception--I'm not sure any society will have a choice --unless we are willing to live with some horrible dystopia Sci-Fi future where those that aren't lucky live as animals.

7 Billion people on the planet right now --how can this be sustained?

571 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:22:37pm

re: #569 BryanS

heh :)

There's no such thing as too many people in my humble opinion. As long as population is growing, the economy grows. We've never tried (intentionally anyway) shrinking population. We'll see how that turns out in the immigration averse, low birthrate countries of Europe and East Asia. Turns out raising kids takes a lot of work--from diapers to daycare, a good birthrate helps drive the economy. I'd me more concerned about a decreasing population than an increasing one--and on that note, can we increase the quotas for legal immigration in this country already?

Not enough people?

Explain to me how that works when geography is static --and "green" spaces have to be maintained for ecosystem's health?

572 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:23:04pm

re: #570 ggt

No, I don't defend the lack of individual choice in China --State mandated population control is anethma to me. India did forced sterilizations as well. There is a very well documented forced breeding in Bosia after the ethnic cleansing.

I do think it is rather clear that the Planet cannot support all the humans we've so successfully bred, and kept alive. Where would China be if they hadn't instituted their plan? They have a real problem with the number of people they have.

Without Comprehensive Education and Cost-free Contraception--I'm not sure any society will have a choice --unless we are willing to live with some horrible dystopia Sci-Fi future where those that aren't lucky live as animals.

7 Billion people on the planet right now --how can this be sustained?

Oh, I didn't mean to imply you did. We need that comprehensive education and cost-free contraception you speak of. The planet's population rate is growing I think at the highest its ever grown. Quite amazing really. Oh by the way, there's a real interesting article I read about this very subject. Author contrasts what France/Sweden did with Italy/Japan. The Swedes apparently promoted contraception and a healthy social net for families to raise children

573 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:23:49pm

re: #570 ggt

7 Billion people on the planet right now --how can this be sustained?

Same question was asked in the 70s
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Turns out they were really, really wrong about their assumptions that we would run out of resources. They failed to take into account advances in technology. I mean, we haven't even developed Soylent Green, yet, so we still have a ways to go.

574 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:25:00pm

re: #573 BryanS

Same question was asked in the 70s
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Turns out they were really, really wrong about their assumptions that we would run out of resources. They failed to take into account advances in technology. I mean, we haven't even developed Soylent Green, yet, so we still have a ways to go.

I'm familiar with the whole Malthusian scare scenerio.

Yet, as we get more efficient and use more technology --we need fewer workers --no?

I shouldn't worry, the planet will take care of it --one way or another.

575 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:26:50pm

I guess we'll see what happens. People have worried in the past, yes but I think it's a legitimate concern as the world continues to globalize and modernize at a rabid pace. Not that I'm supporting policies that force people not to have children mind you but I do think birth control should be promoted and its usage not be seen as bad.

576 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:28:49pm

re: #575 HappyWarrior

I guess we'll see what happens. People have worried in the past, yes but I think it's a legitimate concern as the world continues to globalize and modernize at a rabid pace. Not that I'm supporting policies that force people not to have children mind you but I do think birth control should be promoted and its usage not be seen as bad.

With all the progress, it's insane to me that people aren't educated to make the best choices for their future children.

Instead we are deliberately keeping the facts about biology from our children and letting hormones take their course.

It doesn't make for a health world, or a healthy individual.

I can't think that a benevolent G-d would want that.

577 freetoken  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:29:36pm

re: #573 BryanS

Same question was asked in the 70s
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Turns out they were really, really wrong about their assumptions that we would run out of resources...

The Club of Rome and some of the people working on the problem at that time were not as wrong as some of their detractors like to make them out to be.

The standard accusation against them is that they predicted an apocalypse by now. However, looking at various projections made many of them have to do with the middle of the 21st century. And, food production and water woes do still look like they will become overwhelming by circa 2050.

578 HappyWarrior  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:31:05pm

re: #576 ggt

With all the progress, it's insane to me that people aren't educated to make the best choices for their future children.

Instead we are deliberately keeping the facts about biology from our children and letting hormones take their course.

It doesn't make for a health world, or a healthy individual.

I can't think that a benevolent G-d would want that.

Totally agree. But this is what happens when people think only their religion has the answers and that science is a threat to them.

579 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:31:19pm

re: #574 ggt

I'm familiar with the whole Malthusian scare scenerio.

Yet, as we get more efficient and use more technology --we need fewer workers --no?

I shouldn't worry, the planet will take care of it --one way or another.

People don't become irrelevant just because technology allows for more production per employee. There is a disruption in economic equilibrium when a big technological change happens, but people just move into other careers. Information technology has achieved the nearly impossible--we have more for less. But we don't have fewer jobs because of information technology.

580 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:31:47pm

re: #577 freetoken

The Club of Rome and some of the people working on the problem at that time were not as wrong as some of their detractors like to make them out to be.

The standard accusation against them is that they predicted an apocalypse by now. However, looking at various projections made many of them have to do with the middle of the 21st century. And, food production and water woes do still look like they will become overwhelming by circa 2050.

Food production is going to be a big issue --corn being the biggy, IIRC. If crops are used for biofuel instead of foodstuffs.

Also, it's nearly impossible to grow enough food for all the people we need to feed without corporate farming, GMO and all the bad things people want to regulate against.

581 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:33:00pm

re: #578 HappyWarrior

Totally agree. But this is what happens when people think only their religion has the answers and that science is a threat to them.

We go backwards as a society --we devolve.

Those who value knowledge seal themselves in monasteries and hope the barbarian hordes don't ransack them for their gold.

582 freetoken  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:33:13pm
583 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:35:21pm

blehhh!

I'm going to bed.

Have a great night all.

Tomorrow is another day.

584 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:38:13pm

re: #577 freetoken

The Club of Rome and some of the people working on the problem at that time were not as wrong as some of their detractors like to make them out to be.

The standard accusation against them is that they predicted an apocalypse by now. However, looking at various projections made many of them have to do with the middle of the 21st century. And, food production and water woes do still look like they will become overwhelming by circa 2050.

I'd say even they have it wrong. Just like the peak oil advocates have it wrong. Technology is a big wildcard. Others mention GMO foods for instance as a bad thing, but they have made a big difference in food productivity. If we assume no technology innovation, then sure, we're all doomed. I have faith in the ability of science to solve our most challenging problems.

585 BryanS  Tue, May 15, 2012 10:40:14pm

Heading out to...ciao

586 Obdicut  Wed, May 16, 2012 3:18:53am

re: #584 BryanS

We don't just need science. We also need people to actually use what science develops. That's what we're missing right now.

Science has done it's job, it's shown that our use of fossil fuels is unsustainable, that the damage we're doing to the atmosphere is going to destroy us.

Now we need to act on that.

And we're not.

587 Conn. Lawyer  Wed, May 16, 2012 4:58:08am

I strongly suggest that those of you who care about the Zimmerman case check out TalkLeft.com. It's a site produced by a mostly liberal criminal defense attorney. In any event, his analysis of the law in Florida, and his application of that law to the known facts, far surpasses any public source.

588 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:42:46am

George Zimmerman is this election's Joe the Plumber.

589 Dustoff848  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:40:02am

Sorry, Duplicate of above.


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