Trayvon Martin Autopsy Showed Injuries to His Knuckles

Right wing blogs immediately start celebrating

CrimeMay 2012 • Views: 29,185

A medical exam taken the day after George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin shows that Zimmerman had a “closed fracture” of his nose (which means the skin was not broken) and two cuts on the back of his head.

And the autopsy results for Trayvon Martin show that he had “broken skin” on his knuckles.

These reports simply reinforce what was already known — that some kind of struggle took place between Martin and Zimmerman. But you know how the wingnut blogosphere is; they’re all doing victory dances, because they’ve made Zimmerman into some kind of right wing hero.

This news tells us nothing new about the real issue — how the confrontation got started, and whether Trayvon Martin was actually the one “standing his ground.” But the defense will undoubtedly use this to argue that Zimmerman was attacked.

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89 comments

HappyWarrior Wed, May 16, 2012 11:15:22am

Right, the real question is how the confrontation got started in the first place. Martin having injuries on his knuckles doesn’t prove that he started the fight.

wrenchwench Wed, May 16, 2012 11:17:28am

Did Trayvon drag George out of his vehicle? No. Nobody claims that. George was told that he didn’t need to be following the “suspect”, he certainly didn’t need to get out of his vehicle.

HappyWarrior Wed, May 16, 2012 11:20:57am

It was pointed out downstairs but Martin was smaller than Zimmerman. Why provoke a fight with a guy bigger than you? Plus there’s Zimmerman ignoring what the dispatchers told him to do.

Sol Berdinowitz Wed, May 16, 2012 11:21:26am

My main beef is not with Zimmerman, it is with a police department that did not find this case worthy of an investigation, and with the people who passed a law making this sort of sloppy policework not only possible but inevitable.

funky chicken Wed, May 16, 2012 11:21:40am

You still have an armed adult stalking a kid in his car and then choosing to exit the car with his weapon in his hand. As the mother of a teenaged boy I’d say he earned way more than a sore nose and cut on the back of his head. I’ve told both of my kids that if some weirdo follows you and tries to confront you, run and scream like hell or fight like your life depends upon it.

Sol Berdinowitz Wed, May 16, 2012 11:22:31am

re: #5 funky chicken

and assume that he is armed and ready to Stand His Ground

funky chicken Wed, May 16, 2012 11:23:46am

re: #4 Expand Your Ground

Nope. Sorry, but my beef’s with the wanna-be Dirty Harry who actually killed the kid. Secondary beef is with the state’s prosecutor who was only too happy to let a former judge’s son off the hook, and then with the idiots who wrote and passed the law.

Charles Johnson Wed, May 16, 2012 11:23:48am

Meanwhile, the Twitter stalker account ‘XCitizen10’ has been suspended AGAIN. I believe that’s the fourth time.

It’s a CONSPIRACY!

palomino Wed, May 16, 2012 11:26:09am

re: #5 funky chicken

You still have an armed adult stalking a kid in his car and then choosing to exit the car with his weapon in his hand. As the mother of a teenaged boy I’d say he earned way more than a sore nose and cut on the back of his head. I’ve told both of my kids that if some weirdo follows you and tries to confront you, run and scream like hell or fight like your life depends upon it.

Good advice, and it seems to me that’s quite likely what Trayvon was doing. Lost in all of this is Trayvon’s right to stand his ground when being pursued by a stranger, who happened to have a loaded gun.

HappyWarrior Wed, May 16, 2012 11:27:25am

re: #9 palomino

Good advice, and it seems to me that’s quite likely what Trayvon was doing. Lost in all of this is Trayvon’s right to stand his ground when being pursued by a stranger, who happened to have a loaded gun.

Which is something the Zimmerman is a hero people never want to consider.

Sol Berdinowitz Wed, May 16, 2012 11:28:07am

re: #7 funky chicken

Nope. Sorry, but my beef’s with the wanna-be Dirty Harry who actually killed the kid. Secondary beef is with the state’s prosecutor who was only too happy to let a former judge’s son off the hook, and then with the idiots who wrote and passed the law.

My main beef, mind you. Without the other goombahs, this case would not have become a national issue.

Iwouldprefernotto Wed, May 16, 2012 11:28:39am

I think the point is this: Trayvon needed an autopsy and Zimmerman didn’t.

Kragar Wed, May 16, 2012 11:29:13am

A medical report by George Zimmerman’s family doctor shows the neighborhood watch volunteer was diagnosed with a fractured nose, two black eyes and two lacerations on the back of the head after his fatal confrontation with Trayvon Martin.

He refused to be checked by the EMS on the scene, but his family doctor found these injuries later? Consider me unconvinced as to the veracity of these findings.

b_sharp Wed, May 16, 2012 11:30:15am

It’s a fucked up situation, brought on by a fucked up guy following a fucked up law made by fucked up legislators pressured into it by a fucked up lobby group following a fucked up ideology.

Unfortunately for the ultimate victim, Trayvon, this fucked up world does not allow do-overs.

allegro Wed, May 16, 2012 11:32:29am

re: #13 Kragar

He refused to be checked by the EMS on the scene, but his family doctor found these injuries later? Consider me unconvinced as to the veracity of these findings.

Also interesting is there was no sign of swelling or injury in the police photos after the incident.

b_sharp Wed, May 16, 2012 11:34:03am

re: #13 Kragar

He refused to be checked by the EMS on the scene, but his family doctor found these injuries later? Consider me unconvinced as to the veracity of these findings.

The word ‘veracity’ has four syllables. That’s too many for the Zimmerman groupies.

Dumb it down to their level.

Gus Wed, May 16, 2012 11:34:04am

It’s pretty obvious who lost this confrontation: Trayvon Martin. For those doing these victory dances and patting themselves on the back I would ask does a slightly broken nose and a couple of cuts to the head justify killing someone? Zimmerman’s injuries are seemingly minor — none of which required any hospitalization.

SidewaysQuark Wed, May 16, 2012 11:34:26am

If I was walking down the street at night and a strange man, cruising slowly behind me, came out of the car at me with a gun, my reaction might be a bit aggressive, too.

allegro Wed, May 16, 2012 11:34:34am

re: #15 allegro

Also interesting is there was no sign of swelling or injury in the police photos after the incident.

It’s entirely possible that his dad or someone smacked him in the nose after he got home for being such a dumbfuck as to go out looking for trouble with a gun and finding it.

Kragar Wed, May 16, 2012 11:36:25am

How Prayer Ended the Drought in Texas and Stopped the BP Oil Spill

Scarborough: Our Governor here in the state of Texas called for a day of prayer and fasting last May. We were at the height of a drought that meteorologists were telling us was part of a cycle that would last perhaps for a number of years and that it would take us years to get our lake levels back up and so forth. It occurs to me that, not immediately, but after that prayer event that thirty thousand people participated in, we started getting rain and in less than a year, our lakes are full, our fields are brimming. A lot of people seem not to connect the dots on that, but we’ve got a fresh illustration of how God honors prayer.

Barton: Yeah, that’s one of those many things that historians will looks back upon and say ‘look at the correlation.’ But I look back over the last few years at Sonny Perdue of Georgia who called, in the middle of their drought - that was an unprecedented century drought that they had there - he called for prayer and within three days they had rain falling in Georgia again. They’re back in good condition.

I recall what happened with the oil spill in the Gulf, how all the Gulf governors except for Charlie Crist of Florida got together and called for a time of prayer that God would mitigate the damage of that and cause that thing to be sealed. And guess what? All the expected damage along the shorelines to all the wildlife, it didn’t happen.

dragonfire1981 Wed, May 16, 2012 11:36:51am

re: #5 funky chicken

You still have an armed adult stalking a kid in his car and then choosing to exit the car with his weapon in his hand after the police told him NOT to. As the mother of a teenaged boy I’d say he earned way more than a sore nose and cut on the back of his head. I’ve told both of my kids that if some weirdo follows you and tries to confront you, run and scream like hell or fight like your life depends upon it.

FTFY

Obdicut Wed, May 16, 2012 11:37:23am

re: #19 allegro

Heh. I don’t think that’s likely. But a broken nose, black eyes, and a couple of cuts is a minor set of injuries. You can give yourself that by walking into a door.

b_sharp Wed, May 16, 2012 11:38:06am

re: #17 Gus

It’s pretty obvious who lost this confrontation: Trayvon Martin. For those doing these victory dances and patting themselves on the back I would ask does a slightly broken nose and a couple of cuts to the head justify killing someone? Zimmerman’s injuries are seemingly minor — none of which required any hospitalization.

I blame the core essentialist mentality of too many on the right who seem to think that once a person shows any sign of breaking the law they are rotten at the core and should be excised from the soft underbelly of society.

I think they constitute the soft underbelly.

Gus Wed, May 16, 2012 11:38:17am

re: #20 Kragar

How Prayer Ended the Drought in Texas and Stopped the BP Oil Spill

But of course! Do you doubt this?

lawhawk Wed, May 16, 2012 11:39:06am

So, what’s the takeaway from the autopsy results and the medical reports indicating injuries with Zimmerman?

Well, how fast can you spin things - because this is a Blendtec situation.

Are the injuries to Martin those that can be considered defensive wounds? Was he fighting off Zimmerman - fighting for his very life when he was shot and killed by Zimmerman?

But more to the point, the medical records/autopsy do little to reveal who initiated the confrontation that led to Martin’s death. Did Martin approach and attack Zimmerman, or was it Zimmerman who initiated the incident?

It should matter that Martin had no duty to retreat under the same SYG that Zimmerman now uses as his own defense. That’s lost on many of Zimmerman’s supporters who want people to think that he’s in the clear.

We have a bad law, a murky incident where one person was shot and killed, inadequate investigations at the key time (right after the incident, and not weeks later as a result of protests against the local PD/state attorney refusing to act to even investigate the matter), and did I mention - a real bad law?

Mattand Wed, May 16, 2012 11:39:06am

I’m going to be attending a function Friday with some relatives that are decidedly pro-Zimmerman, a.k.a. racist as the day is long. I’m going to hear at least one defense of Georgie boy based on this coroner’s report.

Not looking forward to this. If I was honest with some these people about their views, half the male attendees at this thing will beat me into a coma.

palomino Wed, May 16, 2012 11:39:09am

re: #10 HappyWarrior

Which is something the Zimmerman is a hero people never want to consider.

It helps validate their general view that Trayvon has gotten the benefit of biased liberal media coverage, and that they have been proven right about racism being a hyped up, but really nonexistent, story in America today.

I don’t see how anyone with an open, non-reactionary, non-racist perspective could see Zim as a hero.

HappyWarrior Wed, May 16, 2012 11:39:11am

re: #23 Ghost of Insanity

I blame the core essentialist mentality of too many on the right who seem to think that once a person shows any sign of breaking the law they are rotten at the core and should be excised from the soft underbelly of society.

I think they constitute the soft underbelly.

You mean the vigilante wannabe mindset that exists in many and very likely Zimmerman hmself?

b_sharp Wed, May 16, 2012 11:39:24am

re: #20 Kragar

How Prayer Ended the Drought in Texas and Stopped the BP Oil Spill

Any correlation in a storm is good enough for them.

dragonfire1981 Wed, May 16, 2012 11:39:50am

Scarborough: Our Governor here in the state of Texas called for a day of prayer and fasting last May. We were at the height of a drought that meteorologists were telling us was part of a cycle that would last perhaps for a number of years and that it would take us years to get our lake levels back up and so forth. It occurs to me that, not immediately, but after that prayer event that thirty thousand people participated in, we started getting rain and in less than a year, our lakes are full, our fields are brimming. A lot of people seem not to connect the dots on that, but we’ve got a fresh illustration of how God honors prayer.
Barton: Yeah, that’s one of those many things that historians will looks back upon and say ‘look at the correlation.’ But I look back over the last few years at Sonny Perdue of Georgia who called, in the middle of their drought - that was an unprecedented century drought that they had there - he called for prayer and within three days they had rain falling in Georgia again. They’re back in good condition.

I recall what happened with the oil spill in the Gulf, how all the Gulf governors except for Charlie Crist of Florida got together and called for a time of prayer that God would mitigate the damage of that and cause that thing to be sealed. And guess what? All the expected damage along the shorelines to all the wildlife, it didn’t happen.

Bull-fucking-shit

BP is a VERY dirty word here along the Gulf Coast. There’s still a lot of damage and destruction out in the water the public doesn’t know about. People like to act like “it’s all better now” because the fishing boats are out again and the well was sealed.

But it’s a very different story here on the coast. The scars are still present and the ecological damage is still very much there and will most likely take DECADES to repair.

I believe in God, but trying to credit him with cleaning up BP’s mess is ridiculously inaccurate.

b_sharp Wed, May 16, 2012 11:40:12am

re: #22 Obdicut

Heh. I don’t think that’s likely. But a broken nose, black eyes, and a couple of cuts is a minor set of injuries. You can give yourself that by walking into a door.

Only when my wife catches me sneaking in late.

Interesting Times Wed, May 16, 2012 11:40:53am

re: #20 Kragar

How Prayer Ended the Drought in Texas and Stopped the BP Oil Spill

Durr hurr, I guess this means people in the western two-thirds of the state didn’t pray hard enough. Derp.

dragonfire1981 Wed, May 16, 2012 11:40:56am

re: #10 HappyWarrior

Which is something the Zimmerman is a hero people never want to consider.

To a lot of those people, the fact that he shot and killed a black kid makes him a hero period, regardless of the circumstances.

I wish that wasn’t so true in 2012 but…

b_sharp Wed, May 16, 2012 11:41:27am

re: #25 lawhawk

So, what’s the takeaway from the autopsy results and the medical reports indicating injuries with Zimmerman?

Well, how fast can you spin things - because this is a Blendtec situation.

Are the injuries to Martin those that can be considered defensive wounds? Was he fighting off Zimmerman - fighting for his very life when he was shot and killed by Zimmerman?

But more to the point, the medical records/autopsy do little to reveal who initiated the confrontation that led to Martin’s death. Did Martin approach and attack Zimmerman, or was it Zimmerman who initiated the incident?

It should matter that Martin had no duty to retreat under the same SYG that Zimmerman now uses as his own defense. That’s lost on many of Zimmerman’s supporters who want people to think that he’s in the clear.

We have a bad law, a murky incident where one person was shot and killed, inadequate investigations at the key time (right after the incident, and not weeks later as a result of protests against the local PD/state attorney refusing to act to even investigate the matter), and did I mention - a real bad law?

We should point out that it is a real bad law.

wrenchwench Wed, May 16, 2012 11:41:33am

re: #26 mattand

I’m going to be attending a function Friday with some relatives that are decidedly pro-Zimmerman, a.k.a. racist as the day is long. I’m going to hear at least one defense of Georgie boy based on this coroner’s report.

Not looking forward to this. If I was honest with some these people about their views, half the male attendees at this thing will beat me into a coma.

Read as much of this site as possible in preparation. Also, consider some Karate lessons.

HappyWarrior Wed, May 16, 2012 11:41:52am

re: #33 dragonfire1981

To a lot of those people, the fact that he shot and killed a black kid makes him a hero period, regardless of the circumstances.

I wish that wasn’t so true in 2012 but…

I know. I saw some of the comments on yahoo, FoxNation, etc. Could have been form Stormfront.

b_sharp Wed, May 16, 2012 11:41:55am

re: #26 mattand

I’m going to be attending a function Friday with some relatives that are decidedly pro-Zimmerman, a.k.a. racist as the day is long. I’m going to hear at least one defense of Georgie boy based on this coroner’s report.

Not looking forward to this. If I was honest with some these people about their views, half the male attendees at this thing will beat me into a coma.

Pee in their Corn Flakes.

Gus Wed, May 16, 2012 11:42:13am

OT and oh geez…

National Coalition for Men endorses GOP version of Violence Against Women Act: tpm.ly/KtGK8h
— Talking Points Memo (@TPM) May 16, 2012

HappyWarrior Wed, May 16, 2012 11:43:30am

re: #38 Gus

OT and oh geez…

[Embedded content]

Their president’s name is Harry Crouch. Take that in for a second. But sheesh.

Kragar Wed, May 16, 2012 11:43:38am

re: #38 Gus

OT and oh geez…

[Embedded content]

Top VAWA Opponents Partnered with Convicted Wife-Beater and Group Tied to Mail Order Bride Firm

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, May 16, 2012 11:44:00am

It certainly is significant information.

It corroborates both the police report and Zimmerman’s account, thereby also refuting the claims that the police lied in the report about these particular points and so did Zimmerman in his account(s).

Prosecutors better have powerful new evidence on those disks.

erik_t Wed, May 16, 2012 11:44:18am

re: #38 Gus

OT and oh geez…

[Embedded content]

I thought the GOP was the National Coalition for Men.

b_sharp Wed, May 16, 2012 11:44:26am

re: #28 HappyWarrior

You mean the vigilante wannabe mindset that exists in many and very likely Zimmerman hmself?

The idea that there is an essence in humans that is unchangeable and separate from the rest of the body, the religious call it a soul. It’s the old mind/body duality writ large and permanent.

palomino Wed, May 16, 2012 11:46:22am

re: #20 Kragar

How Prayer Ended the Drought in Texas and Stopped the BP Oil Spill

I marvel at Barton’s dot-connecting abilities. He probably knows how to cut and paste as well.

Fact is, Texas’s drought didn’t end until 6 months after Perry’s first official prayer for rain. If you pray publicly often enough, you can conveniently and eventually “connect the dots” on almost anything.

Kragar Wed, May 16, 2012 11:48:00am

re: #44 palomino

I marvel at Barton’s dot-connecting abilities. He probably knows how to cut and paste as well.

Fact is, Texas’s drought didn’t end until 6 months after Perry’s first official prayer for rain. If you pray publicly often enough, you can conveniently and eventually “connect the dots” on almost anything.

They didn’t pray hard enough those first few months.
/

HappyWarrior Wed, May 16, 2012 11:49:07am

It must be nice to live in David Barton’s simple world where prayer solves everything. Great job, Rick Perry giving this guy a huge influence on the education for the children of Texas.

Gus Wed, May 16, 2012 11:49:55am

If God wanted jets to fly on bio-fuels he would have created plants that could be turned into fuel.

Targetpractice Wed, May 16, 2012 11:50:37am

re: #25 lawhawk

So, what’s the takeaway from the autopsy results and the medical reports indicating injuries with Zimmerman?

Well, how fast can you spin things - because this is a Blendtec situation.

Are the injuries to Martin those that can be considered defensive wounds? Was he fighting off Zimmerman - fighting for his very life when he was shot and killed by Zimmerman?

But more to the point, the medical records/autopsy do little to reveal who initiated the confrontation that led to Martin’s death. Did Martin approach and attack Zimmerman, or was it Zimmerman who initiated the incident?

It should matter that Martin had no duty to retreat under the same SYG that Zimmerman now uses as his own defense. That’s lost on many of Zimmerman’s supporters who want people to think that he’s in the clear.

We have a bad law, a murky incident where one person was shot and killed, inadequate investigations at the key time (right after the incident, and not weeks later as a result of protests against the local PD/state attorney refusing to act to even investigate the matter), and did I mention - a real bad law?

That would be the long and short of it. I have virtually zero confidence at this point that Zimmerman’s gonna go to trial, let alone be convicted of anything. The judge at the pre-trial is gonna have his/her hands tied by this piss-poor law, while the prosecution is stuck trying to make a case out of the remains off the disgrace of a police investigation. And the Florida government’s made it clear they have no intention of reviewing the law, so nothing is likely to come of this.

EdDantes Wed, May 16, 2012 11:51:04am

Zimmerman may have been attacked but Trayvon might have been doing what I might done: confronting a stalker.

Kragar Wed, May 16, 2012 11:51:22am

re: #47 Gus

If God wanted jets to fly on bio-fuels he would have created plants that could be turned into fuel.

Investing in planes which kill their pilots = good
Investing in fuels that lessen our dependence on foreign suppliers = bad

Obdicut Wed, May 16, 2012 11:52:36am

re: #49 EdDantes

And not only stalked, but did so as a vigilante. Vigilantism is a threat to law and order. I really don’t get why so many people on the right wing appear to be pro-vigilante.

RadicalModerate Wed, May 16, 2012 11:53:29am

re: #44 palomino

I marvel at Barton’s dot-connecting abilities. He probably knows how to cut and paste as well.

Fact is, Texas’s drought didn’t end until 6 months after Perry’s first official prayer for rain. If you pray publicly often enough, you can conveniently and eventually “connect the dots” on almost anything.

Contrary to Barton’s idiocy, the Texas drought did NOT end this past winter. Yes, there was a slightly higher than normal amount of rainfall during between November 2011 -March 2012, but that was not even close to an adequate amount to raise lake and river water levels, not to mention the severely depleted underground aquifers. Climatologists are saying that it would take close to a full year of above-average rainfall to get Texas to anywhere near “normal” levels.

Kragar Wed, May 16, 2012 11:54:35am

re: #51 Obdicut

And not only stalked, but did so as a vigilante. Vigilantism is a threat to law and order. I really don’t get why so many people on the right wing appear to be pro-vigilante.

Its more of that rugged individualism bullshit where they think they’re all still cowboys living on the frontier.

Targetpractice Wed, May 16, 2012 11:55:03am

re: #50 Kragar

Investing in planes which kill their pilots = good
Investing in fuels that lessen our dependence on foreign suppliers = bad

You’ve got it all wrong. We shouldn’t have to go to biofuels to lower our dependence! We need to drill more, no matter where! Damn the environment, full speed ahead!

Kragar Wed, May 16, 2012 11:56:17am

re: #54 Targetpractice

Please ignore the oil companies behind the curtain.

HappyWarrior Wed, May 16, 2012 11:56:32am

re: #53 Kragar

Its more of that rugged individualism bullshit where they think they’re all still cowboys living on the frontier.

And where no one can be trusted especially not that damn government, even though in the frontier days, the government was responsible for many of those landowners via the 1862 Homestead Act.

lawhawk Wed, May 16, 2012 11:57:08am

re: #52 RadicalModerate

Most of Texas is still experiencing dought conditions - with the panhandle having the worst of it (extreme to exceptional). And it’s long term drought conditions - affecting hydrology not just short term droughts that affect localized crops.

Kragar Wed, May 16, 2012 11:58:09am

re: #57 lawhawk

Most of Texas is still experiencing dought conditions - with the panhandle having the worst of it (extreme to exceptional). And it’s long term drought conditions - affecting hydrology not just short term droughts that affect localized crops.

But it rained! Mana from Heaven! HUZZAH!!! REJOICE IN THE GLORY OF JESUS!

Targetpractice Wed, May 16, 2012 11:59:26am

re: #53 Kragar

Its more of that rugged individualism bullshit where they think they’re all still cowboys living on the frontier.

Yeah, ever since the story first broke, I’ve heard that “when seconds count…” bullshit from more than a few Dirty Harry wannabes who like to brag at length about their .357 Magnum penile extensions that they carry around like old gunslingers. And being internet tough guys, they like to assure me that if they were in the same situation, they’d have shot Trayvon after the first swing, because that’s their “right.”

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, May 16, 2012 12:00:30pm

re: #49 EdDantes

Zimmerman may have been attacked but Trayvon might have been doing what I might done: confronting a stalker.

Sure. The question then would be: did Trayvon go beyond legally acceptable actions.

Earlier I was inclined to dismiss Z’s account because of several points (e.g. the alleged broken nose, the mortuary guy’s claim about knuckles, the big diff. in weight and height between the two, etc.).

Given how those points got refuted one by one, I cannot but come close to agnosticism. Certainly, Zimmerman caused the whole situation and should be somehow punished in any case, but I can see a situation where he honestly saw himself as being justified in using the firearms already during the situation itself. It’s up to the prosecutors now.

Shiplord Kirel Wed, May 16, 2012 12:01:55pm

I’ve run this case by my security guard friend.

But first, you need to know that private security in Texas is nothing like the negative image portrayed in Hollywood’s long running comedy/hate campaign against the profession. Since 2005, security guards here have been trained and licensed by the Department of Public Safety, specifically the Highway Patrol. Results have been very good, despite some complaints from certain clients and operators about industry wages having doubled in that time. You get what you pay for. If what you pay for includes a gun, you probably don’t want to skimp.

In any case, the security guy says Zimmerman started to go wrong literally the second he first spotted young Martin. A kid on a public street is not especially suspicious, even if he is “out of place.” There are a million reasons he could be there. “Out of place” is really one of the most widespread public myths. According to my guard friend, there is almost no such thing, unless the person appears lost or confused, for which there are obvious body-language signals.

Secondly, you don’t trail after someone, especially not in a vehicle. If you do want to talk to the person, you pull ahead of them and stop and get out. If they seem alarmed, say something re-assuring, anything. If you must, tell them some paranoid fool reported them and you are required to check it out as a tiresome matter of routine. This is even the truth in a lot of cases.

If you feel safe and the person seems apprehensive about being on the street, offer them a ride, especially if the person is a minor. Many patrol companies don’t allow this but more and more do.

Finally, and most obviously, you do exactly what the police dispatcher tells you to do. The dispatcher often knows more than you do about the situation. Sometimes they are wrong but that is not the way to bet.

Amateur security is the same as amateur policing, much potential for harm and little for good.

Kragar Wed, May 16, 2012 12:02:23pm

The Real Fraud: Second ‘Non-Citizen’ In James O’Keefe Voter Fraud Video Naturalized In 2011

In conservative filmmaker James O’Keefe’s latest video, he features two “non-citizens” who have supposedly committed voter fraud in North Carolina. As ThinkProgress reported yesterday, one of the men, Zbigniew Gorzkowski, has actually been an American citizens for decades.

Now, it turns out that the second “non-citizen,” William Romero, is actually a citizen as well, according to his family.

Ming Wed, May 16, 2012 12:04:09pm

I’m not sure what’s “proven” here. Trayvon Martin may have scraped his skin earlier that morning. Zimmerman may have injured himself doing a Robert DeNiro “you talkin’ to me?” scene as he prepared for his “neighborhood patrol”.

What’s important is that the Sanford Police should have collected as much evidence as possible, in regard to both people. Any injuries either person had should have been thoroughly documented, in photos, videos, and written statements. We’ll have to wait and see exactly what evidence the Sanford Police collected. I have my doubts about whether the police did a professional job in regard to evidence collection, but we’ll have to wait and see what they’ve got.

wrenchwench Wed, May 16, 2012 12:04:44pm

re: #60 May Day! May Day!

I can see a situation where he honestly saw himself as being justified in using the firearms already during the situation itself.

Maybe ‘honestly’ in his own mind, but I see no objective justification for anything that he did.

HappyWarrior Wed, May 16, 2012 12:06:08pm

re: #62 Kragar

The Real Fraud: Second ‘Non-Citizen’ In James O’Keefe Voter Fraud Video Naturalized In 2011

O’Keefe is such a fraud. Remember when the House GOP members tried to pass a resolution honoring him and Gilles? The little bastard needs to find a real job instead of spending his time ruining other people’s lives because he thinks he’s this brilliant right wing scheme artist.

FemNaziBitch Wed, May 16, 2012 12:06:48pm

re: #20 Kragar

How Prayer Ended the Drought in Texas and Stopped the BP Oil Spill

DID THEY do a rain dance as well?

Targetpractice Wed, May 16, 2012 12:06:52pm

re: #65 HappyWarrior

O’Keefe is such a fraud. Remember when the House GOP members tried to pass a resolution honoring him and Gilles? The little bastard needs to find a real job instead of spending his time ruining other people’s lives because he thinks he’s this brilliant right wing scheme artist.

You gotta feel a bit of pity for him. After all, his sugardaddy’s dead, he’s got nobody to give him direction anymore.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, May 16, 2012 12:07:32pm

re: #64 wrenchwench

Maybe ‘honestly’ in his own mind, but I see no objective justification for anything that he did.

If he had his head beaten against the road, it already constitutes a situation of danger to life. In such a case, if he could not extricate himself in any other plausible way, it can be an objective justification.

Obdicut Wed, May 16, 2012 12:07:37pm

re: #60 May Day! May Day!

Even with the terrible language of SYG, you’d have to have just never been in a fight before in your life to think that the outcome of a scuffle would likely be death or serious injury. Since he’s had previous scuffles, that makes that less credible. What he has claimed, I believe, is that Trayvon went for his gun or ‘noticed’ his gun, and that’s why he shot them.

That’s problematic in and of itself, but I think that’s the actual point that it’s resting on, given that the injuries were minor.

HappyWarrior Wed, May 16, 2012 12:08:30pm

re: #67 Targetpractice

You gotta feel a bit of pity for him. After all, his sugardaddy’s dead, he’s got nobody to give him direction anymore.

/

Pimping ain’t easy.

Feline Fearless Leader Wed, May 16, 2012 12:08:42pm

re: #47 Gus

If God wanted jets to fly on bio-fuels he would have created plants that could be turned into fuel.

Instead of needing those plants buried en masse in sediments and then cooked and pressured in a fairly limited temperature band over a long period of time.

Kragar Wed, May 16, 2012 12:08:51pm

Speaking of frauds…

Gov. Walker Disregards Official Jobs Data Now That It Shows Wisconsin Losing Most Jobs In The Nation

Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Wed, May 16, 2012 12:09:08pm

What it likely means is that Zimmerman won’t be found guilty of Murder. Now manslaughter that’s another story. No matter how you look at it, ignoring the instructions of the 911 operator and chasing someone down in a car, Zimmerman put himself in a situation where he is at least partially responsible for the death that follows.

But ultimately no matter what happens, Trayvon Martin remains dead, and we’ll likely never know what happened thanks to the incompetence of the police officers who performed the ‘investigation’.

HappyWarrior Wed, May 16, 2012 12:09:34pm

re: #72 Kragar

Speaking of frauds…

Gov. Walker Disregards Official Jobs Data Now That It Shows Wisconsin Losing Most Jobs In The Nation

Another bastard. But hey he’s waging war on those parasitic public sector unions so he’s grand.

dragonfire1981 Wed, May 16, 2012 12:09:49pm

re: #72 Kragar

Speaking of frauds…

Gov. Walker Disregards Official Jobs Data Now That It Shows Wisconsin Losing Most Jobs In The Nation

Telling:

Walker had no problem touting the official Bureau of Labor Statistics’ job report last year when it showed that Wisconsin was adding jobs. Now, he has decided to cite a different report that still shows relatively weak job growth.

Killgore Trout Wed, May 16, 2012 12:09:49pm

re: #61 Shiplord Kirel

Amateur security is the same as amateur policing, much potential for harm and little for good.

True but as a teen I was contacted by neighborhood watch plenty of times. Smoking pot and/or making out in parked cars. Drinking beer late at night in neighborhood playgrounds or parks. It never occurred to me to fight with them.

Varek Raith Wed, May 16, 2012 12:10:03pm

re: #22 Obdicut

Heh. I don’t think that’s likely. But a broken nose, black eyes, and a couple of cuts is a minor set of injuries. You can give yourself that by walking into a door.

Or an open cabinet….
…

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, May 16, 2012 12:10:27pm

re: #73 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All

What it likely means is that Zimmerman won’t be found guilty of Murder.

Not necessarily. The prosecutor knew about all this b4 charging.

So all hinges on that new evidence.

wrenchwench Wed, May 16, 2012 12:11:19pm

re: #68 May Day! May Day!

If he had his head beaten against the road, it already constitutes a situation of danger to life. In such a case, if he could not extricate himself in any other plausible way, it can be an objective justification.

The ‘if’ is so big, it obscures my view of the objective justification. I see what you’re saying, though.

But it’s his own fault he got into that situation.

Obdicut Wed, May 16, 2012 12:11:29pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

What about just walking along, not smoking pot, making out, or drinking beer?

As neighborhood watch, Zimmerman is an example of why the national Neighborhood watch program forbids its members from carrying weapons when they do their watch.

OhNoZombies! Wed, May 16, 2012 12:11:42pm

Hi guys, been busy doing mom stuff so I’ve just been a lurker, but…
re: #51 Obdicut

I think the Wingers are into vigilantism because they are not fooled by the race-baiting libetard media, and only they know the threat being caused by the three guys in the New Black Panther Party. //

Killgore Trout Wed, May 16, 2012 12:12:42pm

re: #73 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All

Trayvon Martin remains dead, and we’ll likely never know what happened thanks to the incompetence of the police officers who performed the ‘investigation’.

Well, from what we know so far nothing in the prosecution’s evidence contradicts anything from the initial police investigation. Unless the prosecution has something different it looks like the police may have done their job properly.

Obdicut Wed, May 16, 2012 12:13:56pm

re: #82 Killgore Trout

Simply not doing a tox screen on Zimmerman is not doing their job properly.

Killgore Trout Wed, May 16, 2012 12:14:12pm

re: #80 Obdicut

What about just walking along, not smoking pot, making out, or drinking beer?

Yup, I’ve been followed and contacted my neighborhood watch just walking to a friends house. It happens.

Obdicut Wed, May 16, 2012 12:18:43pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

Yup, I’ve been followed and contacted my neighborhood watch just walking to a friends house. It happens.

I haven’t. I doubt most people have. It’s a rather weird thing to do.

And do you get my point? Neighborhood watch hassling a kid who’s drinking beer in a park— totally understandable.

Neighborhood watch demanding that a teenager account for himself just for walking along the street? At best, that’s our society’s bizarre paranoia about teenagers, our fear and hatred towards them. At worst— like with Zimmerman, going out armed— it’s a recipe for total fucking disaster.

The National Neighborhood Watch certainly tells its members not to confront people. It’s a pretty obviously bad idea, especially when combined with a vigilante mindset.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, May 16, 2012 12:19:54pm

re: #79 wrenchwench

But it’s his own fault he got into that situation.

Sure, as I acknowledged, but this point is irrelevant when we’re discussing the situation itself, rather that what had lead to it. Once we’re “inside” the situation, it still matters who did what, unless we’re saying that from that point on Trayvon could do whatever he wanted to Z.

As for the big if - since Z is on trial, the prosecution will have to close this loophole. If they don’t, the doubt is in Z’s favor.

EdDantes Wed, May 16, 2012 12:41:02pm

re: #61 Shiplord Kirel

I’ve been licensed by the state of California as a security officer for 19 years. Your security guard friend is correct even though I’m not familiar with Texas requirements. No security company in California would allow giving a ride to anyone unless it was specifically in the post orders for the site.

In Ca, a security officer has no more authority than a private citizen which we are. I don’t know what Zimmerman’s status was in his state, but given the circumstances, as a security officer, I would just observe. If I were suspicious I might ask if I could help. Otherwise, I would report it to the police and stand back and let the professionals do their job.

Ming Wed, May 16, 2012 1:17:33pm

re: #83 Obdicut

Simply not doing a tox screen on Zimmerman is not doing their job properly.

Good point! No one can do everything by the book, all the time. But when a young person is lying there dead on the ground, you expect certain procedures to be followed by the police. It’ll be interesting to learn what evidence the Sanford Police did collect, and what evidence (like the tox screen you mention) should have been collected, but wasn’t.

I also wonder about how the police gathered evidence from witnesses. On CNN, soon after the story went national, I saw a woman who said that the Sanford Police flat-out lied about the witness statement that she gave to them.

Patricia Kayden Wed, May 16, 2012 3:14:26pm

Some hero. Zimmerman is a jerk. I guess conservatives idolize people who kill others — expecially when the other is non-White.

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