Literary Agent on Breitbart Bombshell: ‘A Simple Mistake’

Fail of the week
Wingnuts • Views: 32,650

Taegan Goddard’s Political Wire got a statement from the literary agent who produced the promotional booklet that was the subject of breitbart.com’s EXCLUSIVE BOMBSHELL VETTING post today:

Breitbart News reports on a promotional booklet produced in 1991 by Barack Obama’s then-literary agency which describes the author as “born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii.”

Miriam Goderich issued the following statement to Political Wire:

“You’re undoubtedly aware of the brouhaha stirred up by Breitbart about the erroneous statement in a client list Acton & Dystel published in 1991 (for circulation within the publishing industry only) that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. This was nothing more than a fact checking error by me — an agency assistant at the time. There was never any information given to us by Obama in any of his correspondence or other communications suggesting in any way that he was born in Kenya and not Hawaii. I hope you can communicate to your readers that this was a simple mistake and nothing more.”

Somehow, I doubt that’s going to have much effect on the unstoppable Birthers.

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727 comments
1 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:18:09pm

This is hardly the only mistaken mention of his birth in Kenya. Some pretty mainstream sources made this rookie mistake back when Obama was at the start of his political path. Pretty stupid to make anything out of it.

2 chonguey  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:19:53pm

It just goes to show how complex and elaborate this conspiracy is.

It goes all the way to the top! Even literary agency assistants are in on it!

Is there no one Obama hasn't bought off with Dog Meat and free abortions?

/wing-nut

3 Targetpractice  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:20:10pm

Well, if it was a mistake, why didn't Obama disagree with it?! Why didn't he point it out! The guy's lying to cover for Obama!!

4 Kragar  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:22:36pm

This will have all the impact of a fart in a tornado with the wingnuts

5 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:25:31pm

Dr. Livingstone! It looks like we've discover a new species of birther. We call it the #Breitbirthers

6 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:26:25pm

re: #4 Kragar

This will have all the impact of a fart in a tornado with the wingnuts

Clearly the White House has threatened Miriam Goderich and his family!!!!!

7 erik_t  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:26:39pm

re: #2 chonguey

It just goes to show how complex and elaborate this conspiracy is.

It goes all the way to the top! Even literary agency assistants are in on it!

George Soros funds open publishing software

SOROOOOSSS!!!1

8 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:36:23pm

This will only make the lunatics at Breitbart think there's more of a conspiracy.

9 jaunte  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:39:10pm

Occam was a foreigner, and invented his razor to confuse patriots.

10 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:41:51pm

so what happens to birthers in the next four years after Obama wins


what happens to the ones who truly believe this stuff, and truly believe that the government has become some sort of crypto-islamic dictatorship?

do they complain, do they disappear, or do a couple of them go McVeigh

11 Kragar  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:42:05pm

Lack of evidence is evidence and evidence to the contrary was fabricated.

Got it.

12 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:43:22pm

re: #10 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

so what happens to birthers in the next four years after Obama wins

what happens to the ones who truly believe this stuff, and truly believe that the government has become some sort of crypto-islamic dictatorship?

do they complain, do they disappear, or do a couple of them go McVeigh

Answer is 'D'.

13 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:45:05pm

Update on this bogus outrageous outrage:
TED and inequality: The real story

Today TED was subject to a story so misleading it would be funny... except it successfully launched an aggressive online campaign against us.

14 sagehen  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:45:19pm

re: #12 Decatur Deb

Answer is 'D'.

All of the above?

15 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:45:39pm
Frank says:

I want a garden!

Nice!

16 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:46:11pm

re: #14 sagehen

All of the above?

Yup. With any luck the few who try will have a 'work accident'.

17 Kragar  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:46:39pm

re: #15 Killgore Trout

Frank says:

Drop out of school before your mind rots from exposure to our mundane educational system. Forget about the Senior Prom and go to the library and *educate yourself* if you've got any guts. Some of you like *pep rallies* and plastic robots who tell you what to read. Forget I mentioned it. *This song has no message.* Rise for the flag salute.

18 jaunte  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:46:46pm

re: #10 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

Jerome Corsi and Orly Taitz move to Hawaii, begin a deep-cover O'Keefing of the Hawaii State Records office.

19 mr.fusion  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:48:02pm
“You’re undoubtedly aware of the brouhaha stirred up by Breitbart about the erroneous statement in a client list Acton & Dystel published in 1991 (for circulation within the publishing industry only) that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. This was nothing more than a fact checking error by me — an agency assistant at the time. There was never any information given to us by Obama in any of his correspondence or other communications suggesting in any way that he was born in Kenya and not Hawaii. I hope you can communicate to your readers that this was a simple mistake and nothing more.”

You're all idiots

Sorry Miriam, but I think that's really all you had to say

20 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:48:06pm

re: #2 chonguey

It just goes to show how complex and elaborate this conspiracy is.

It goes all the way to the top! Even literary agency assistants are in on it!

Is there no one Obama hasn't bought off with Dog Meat and free abortions?

/wing-nut

But since this conspiracy goes back to at least the year he was born, when the fake birth announcements were planted in the Honolulu papers, how did this literary agency assistant ever stumble onto the truth? More importantly, why is she still alive?

21 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:49:30pm

An outrageous outrage is bogus! This is outrageous!

22 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:50:35pm

I assume some of these folks truly believe, and some of them just continue to harp on this to get others to believe, and be annoying.

I wish I was sure who was who.

23 Kragar  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:52:20pm

re: #22 SanFranciscoZionist

I assume some of these folks truly believe, and some of them just continue to harp on this to get others to believe, and be annoying.

I wish I was sure who was who.

Don't forget those who are just in it for the money.

24 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:52:31pm

re: #9 jaunte

Occam was a foreigner Franciscan, and invented his razor to confuse Dominicans.

25 EastSider  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:54:47pm

re: #23 Kragar

Don't forget those who are just in it for the money.

never attribute to malice what can be just as easily attributed to ignorance.

26 Daniel Ballard  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:57:30pm

re: #13 Killgore Trout

Update on this bogus outrageous outrage:
TED and inequality: The real story

Kudos to them. TED made exactly the right call IMHO. Economic controversy would be fine, but a huge partisan overlay is just not what TED does well at all. Partisan debates would diminish and demean TED.

27 Kragar  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:00:02pm

re: #25 EastSider

never attribute to malice what can be just as easily attributed to ignorance.

Never attribute to conviction what can just as easily be attributed to greed.

28 Targetpractice  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:02:08pm

OT:

The leading "logic" I heard after Obama's announcement on gay marriage was "He's thrown away the black and hispanic vote." Apparently, black voters didn't get the memo:

The Obama Effect: Growing Number Of African Americans Come Out For Marriage Equality

29 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:02:25pm

re: #26 Daniel Ballard

Kudos to them. TED made exactly the right call IMHO. Economic controversy would be fine, but a huge partisan overlay is just not what TED does well at all. Partisan debates would diminish and demean TED.

This interesting. TEDChris said, "The audience at TED who heard it live (and who are often accused of being overly enthusiastic about left-leaning ideas) gave it, on average, mediocre ratings." However in the comments I'm finding people saying it received a standing ovation. You can see it at the end of the short piece here:

30 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:02:37pm

re: #26 Daniel Ballard

Kudos to them. TED made exactly the right call IMHO. Economic controversy would be fine, but a huge partisan overlay is just not what TED does well at all. Partisan debates would diminish and demean TED.

They have pretty high standards and are serious about maintaining the quality of the material they post. They aren't going to promote every quack who walks out on stage.

31 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:02:53pm

re: #28 Targetpractice

OT:

The leading "logic" I heard after Obama's announcement on gay marriage was "He's thrown away the black and hispanic vote." Apparently, black voters didn't get the memo:

The Obama Effect: Growing Number Of African Americans Come Out For Marriage Equality

I think that's called 'leadership'. Used to be quite common.

32 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:03:05pm

re: #30 Killgore Trout

They have pretty high standards and are serious about maintaining the quality of the material they post. They aren't going to promote every quack who walks out on stage.

Ha! That's funny. I've seen a lot of pop-trash on TED before.

33 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:06:51pm

re: #30 Killgore Trout

They have pretty high standards and are serious about maintaining the quality of the material they post. They aren't going to promote every quack who walks out on stage.

Kid tells me TED tickets go for $4,000.

Occupy TED.

34 gwangung  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:07:47pm

re: #30 Killgore Trout

They have pretty high standards and are serious about maintaining the quality of the material they post. They aren't going to promote every quack who walks out on stage.

Nich Hanauer isn't a quack, though he's a bond fide 1%er.

35 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:08:27pm

re: #33 Decatur Deb

Kid tells me Ted tickets go for $4,000.

Occupy Ted.

That reminds me of the people that criticize Al Gore for his lifestyle or attendees that went to COP15 in private jets. I know it's a joke but it's based on actual right-wing talking points.

36 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:09:39pm

re: #34 gwangung

Nich Hanauer isn't a quack, though he's a bond fide 1%er.

His speech was vapid and simplistic. Nothing interesting or thought provoking.

37 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:10:44pm

re: #36 Killgore Trout

His speech was vapid and simplistic. Nothing interesting or thought provoking.

Thanks. Tool.

38 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:12:00pm

re: #37 Gus

Thanks. Tool.

Dum..dum...Dum.dum

WrenchWench is lurking.

39 wrenchwench  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:13:46pm

re: #38 Decatur Deb

Dum..dum...Dum.dum

WrenchWench is lurking.

In and out...poked in just in time for that!

/for god's sake don't let b_sharp read that comment....

40 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:14:05pm

re: #38 Decatur Deb

Dum..dum...Dum.dum

WrencWench is lurking.

with a hammer! (speaking of tools!)

41 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:14:31pm

re: #39 wrenchwench

In and out...poked in just in time for that!

/for god's sake don't let b_sharp read that comment...

Who ya pokin'

And wif what?

42 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:15:16pm

re: #38 Decatur Deb

Dum..dum...Dum.dum

WrenchWench is lurking.

What's up with that?

43 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:15:55pm

re: #42 Gus

What's up with that?

"Tool" is ****, the seventh word.

44 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:16:04pm

re: #41 sattv4u2

Who ya pokin'

And wif what?

NTTIAWWT!

45 wrenchwench  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:16:49pm

re: #42 Gus

What's up with that?

See here.

46 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:17:29pm

re: #45 wrenchwench

See here.

Ah. OK

47 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:19:21pm

re: #44 May Day! May Day!

NTTIAWWT!

Thats right

Thats why I wanted to know!

There may be something I haven't tried using ,,, yet!!

48 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:20:37pm

Failing to convince the dog that the days get longer and hotter towards the equinox. Wants the evening walk NOW. BBL

49 blueraven  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:23:49pm

Oh wonderful

The newest headline...Trayvon Martin Had Drugs in System, Autopsy Found

The autopsy report shows traces of the drug THC, which is found in marijuana, in Martin's blood and urine.

Please!

50 ProGunLiberal  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:27:31pm

One of my FB friends decided to make their status about that thing that white children now only make a large plurality of births. Some of the comments made me...uncomfortable. Should I say something.

Right now, I want to, if only out of frustration at life in general and loneliness. I have enough of those right now that I lash out at the predictable targets at the drop of a hat.

51 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:28:00pm

re: #48 Decatur Deb

Failing to convince the dog that the days get longer and hotter towards the equinox. Wants the evening walk NOW. BBL

Coax him to at least walk on the shady side of the street

(although, whatever side you're on is "shady")~!!!

///

52 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:29:57pm

re: #50 ProGunLiberal

One of my FB friends decided to make their status about that thing that white children now only make a large plurality of births. Some of the comments made me...uncomfortable. Should I say something.

Right now, I want to, if only out of frustration at life in general and loneliness. I have enough of those right now that I lash out at the predictable targets at the drop of a hat.

You really need a hobby!

And yes, I'm serious. You need something to occupy your mind and it would be better if the hobby involved physical activity

Jog ,,, tennis ,,, swimming ,,,,

53 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:30:37pm

re: #48 Decatur Deb

Failing to convince the dog that the days get longer and hotter towards the equinox. Wants the evening walk NOW. BBL

What's the name of your Canine Overlord?

54 Targetpractice  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:31:01pm

re: #49 blueraven

Oh wonderful

The newest headline...Trayvon Martin Had Drugs in System, Autopsy Found

Please!

And we'll never know if Zimmerman had drugs in his system or what they were, because the SPD didn't think that worth testing.

55 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:32:17pm

re: #53 May Day! May Day!

What's the name of your Canine Overlord?

Decatur Dog!

56 blueraven  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:33:26pm

re: #54 Targetpractice

And we'll never know if Zimmerman had drugs in his system or what they were, because the SPD didn't think that worth testing.

Exactly. And anyone who knows anything about smoking pot, knows it does not make one violent and that it can stay in your system for weeks..

I think it is pretty sick that they drug tested the victim and let the shooter walk.

57 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:33:42pm

re: #53 May Day! May Day!
Dammit

58 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:34:00pm

re: #17 Kragar

Frank says:

Drop out of school before your mind rots from exposure to our mundane educational system. Forget about the Senior Prom and go to the library and *educate yourself* if you've got any guts. Some of you like *pep rallies* and plastic robots who tell you what to read. Forget I mentioned it. *This song has no message.* Rise for the flag salute.

Ron Paul!

59 gwangung  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:34:29pm

re: #56 blueraven

Exactly. And anyone who knows anything about smoking pot, knows it does not make one violent and that it can stay in your system for weeks..

I think it is pretty sick that they drug tested the victim and let the shooter walk.

Not much to add; covers it all.

60 wrenchwench  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:34:57pm

re: #52 sattv4u2

You really need a hobby!

And yes, I'm serious. You need something to occupy your mind and it would be better if the hobby involved physical activity

Jog ,,, tennis ,,, swimming ,,,

cycling,,,

61 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:35:45pm

re: #60 wrenchwench

cycling,,,

LOL

But of course

62 Kragar  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:36:19pm

re: #52 sattv4u2

You really need a hobby!

And yes, I'm serious. You need something to occupy your mind and it would be better if the hobby involved physical activity

Jog ,,, tennis ,,, swimming ,,,

Tabletop wargamming.

63 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:38:18pm

re: #62 Kragar

Tabletop wargamming.

There are better physical activities I can think of on a tabletop

BUT ,, to each his/her own!!!

64 blueraven  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:39:13pm

re: #59 gwangung

Not much to add; covers it all.

Except of course that this will prove to the Zimmerman apologists that Trayvon Martin was a druggie thug, who deserved what he got.

65 Kragar  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:39:15pm

re: #63 sattv4u2

There are better physical activities I can think of on a tabletop

BUT ,, to each his/her own!!!

That is what the swing is for.

66 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:40:03pm

re: #65 Kragar

That is what the swing is for.

SCHWING!!!!

67 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:43:26pm

So two documents bearing the official seal of Hawaii are invalid, but a pamphlet produced probably by an administrative assistant* and not legally admissible in any way is valid?

*Nothing against AA's, I was one. It's just that they aren't legal anythings.

68 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:45:55pm

re: #53 May Day! May Day!

What's the name of your Canine Overlord?

"Polaris", but he really does answer to "Doofus".

69 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:46:13pm

re: #67 Mostly sane, most of the time.


Nothing against AA's, I was one

Really? What step are you on!?!?!

///

70 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:46:51pm

re: #68 Decatur Deb

"Polaris", but he really does answer to "Doofus".

heh ,, thats what I call McDuff ,,, our 18 pound Westie

71 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:48:00pm

re: #68 Decatur Deb

"Polaris", but he really does answer to "Doofus".

Don't worry, he has names for you too!//

72 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:49:20pm

re: #70 sattv4u2

heh ,, thats what I call McDuff ,,, our 18 pound Westie

We've been around the block--a psycho yellow cat 1/12th his weight has developed the habit of charging him when we go past its house. Cat needs a coyote.

73 Daniel Ballard  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:52:44pm

Whoa, I did not expect this...

Witnesses, whose names were redacted from the report, also lent support to Zimmerman's version of what happened.

"He witnesses a black male, wearing a dark colored 'hoodie' on top of a white or Hispanic male and throwing punches 'MMA (mixed martial arts) style," the police report of the witness said. "He then heard a pop. He stated that after hearing the pop, he observed the person he had previously observed on top of the other person (the male wearing the hoodie) laid out on the grass."

74 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:53:04pm
75 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:54:47pm

re: #54 Targetpractice

gotta wait for the autopsy

76 Targetpractice  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:55:04pm

re: #73 Daniel Ballard

Whoa, I did not expect this...

Witnesses, whose names were redacted from the report, also lent support to Zimmerman's version of what happened.

"He witnesses a black male, wearing a dark colored 'hoodie' on top of a white or Hispanic male and throwing punches 'MMA (mixed martial arts) style," the police report of the witness said. "He then heard a pop. He stated that after hearing the pop, he observed the person he had previously observed on top of the other person (the male wearing the hoodie) laid out on the grass."

At this point, I think it's safe to say that this case is gonna die at the pre-trial hearing.

77 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:55:34pm

re: #73 Daniel Ballard

Whoa, I did not expect this...

Witnesses, whose names were redacted from the report, also lent support to Zimmerman's version of what happened.

"He witnesses a black male, wearing a dark colored 'hoodie' on top of a white or Hispanic male and throwing punches 'MMA (mixed martial arts) style," the police report of the witness said. "He then heard a pop. He stated that after hearing the pop, he observed the person he had previously observed on top of the other person (the male wearing the hoodie) laid out on the grass."

Yeah I was just reading about that. Here's another witness...
Trayvon transcripts: Witness to 'howling' says Zimmerman might've been on top of Martin

A

: “I know after seeing the TV of what’s happening – comparing their pictures – I think Zimmerman is definitely on top because of his size.”

Q: Do you think Zimmerman is bigger?

A: “Yes.”

Q: Define bigger

“Compared to Martin.”

The problem is that Trayvon was 6 ft. Zimmerman is 5-9.

78 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:56:38pm

re: #76 Targetpractice

At this point, I think it's safe to say that this case is gonna die at the pre-trial hearing.

It's really starting to look that way. Unless the prosecution has something secret. So far all of the leaks are backing up Zimmerman's story.

79 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:58:20pm

re: #77 Killgore Trout

The problem is that Trayvon was 6 ft. Zimmerman is 5-9.

Yes, but at night ,, from a distance ,, in the dark,, two people on the ground... a hefty 5'9"er would appear "bigger" than a thin 6 footer

80 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:58:27pm

re: #74 Killgore Trout

Cops, Witnesses Back Up George Zimmerman's Version of Trayvon Martin Shooting
With pic of Zimmerman's injuries.

Poor journalism. We've had the reports all along. Why are they presented as something new?

81 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:59:37pm

re: #77 Killgore Trout

Yeah I was just reading about that. Here's another witness...
Trayvon transcripts: Witness to 'howling' says Zimmerman might've been on top of Martin

A

The problem is that Trayvon was 6 ft. Zimmerman is 5-9.

Bigger != higher.

82 blueraven  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:59:53pm

re: #77 Killgore Trout

Yeah I was just reading about that. Here's another witness...
Trayvon transcripts: Witness to 'howling' says Zimmerman might've been on top of Martin

A

The problem is that Trayvon was 6 ft. Zimmerman is 5-9.

Bigger is subjective. Zimmerman is stockier/bigger built.
I doubt the witness was talking about height.

83 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:00:35pm

re: #79 sattv4u2

The problem is that Trayvon was 6 ft. Zimmerman is 5-9.

Yes, but at night ,, from a distance ,, in the dark,, two people on the ground... a hefty 5'9"er would appear "bigger" than a thin 6 footer

It's obvious.

84 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:02:53pm

re: #67 Mostly sane, most of the time.

So two documents bearing the official seal of Hawaii are invalid, but a pamphlet produced probably by an administrative assistant* and not legally admissible in any way is valid?

question for you folks: i saw the image of the birth certificate and immediately noticed the watermark orientation in relation to the typed info to look really screwy...... any of you seen how this might be explained? i don't question his citizenship but maybe the admin caved to the birthers an issued a 'quick fix' i.e. we gotta release something and the document is the result of an intern's all nighter. jus' sayin'

85 blueraven  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:04:52pm

re: #84 live life like you have one

question for you folks: i saw the image of the birth certificate and immediately noticed the watermark orientation in relation to the typed info to look really screwy... any of you seen how this might be explained? i don't question his citizenship but maybe the admin caved to the birthers an issued a 'quick fix' i.e. we gotta release something and the document is the result of an intern's all nighter. jus' sayin'

Your concern is noted.

86 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:05:09pm

re: #80 May Day! May Day!

Poor journalism. We've had the reports all along. Why are they presented as something new?

Because they released the transcripts.

"He witnesses a black male, wearing a dark colored 'hoodie' on top of a white or Hispanic male and throwing punches 'MMA (mixed martial arts) style," the police report of the witness said. "He then heard a pop. He stated that after hearing the pop, he observed the person he had previously observed on top of the other person (the male wearing the hoodie) laid out on the grass."

A second witness described a person on the ground with another straddling him and throwing punches. The man on the bottom was yelling for help, the witness told police.

Although we've seen reports that witnesses backed up Zimmerman's story we now have direct quotes placing Trayvon on top of Zimmerman while Z is calling for help.

87 Targetpractice  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:07:55pm

re: #84 live life like you have one

question for you folks: i saw the image of the birth certificate and immediately noticed the watermark orientation in relation to the typed info to look really screwy... any of you seen how this might be explained? i don't question his citizenship but maybe the admin caved to the birthers an issued a 'quick fix' i.e. we gotta release something and the document is the result of an intern's all nighter. jus' sayin'

So you don't believe he's lying, but think he's lying?

88 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:08:05pm

re: #84 live life like you have one

question for you folks: i saw the image of the birth certificate and immediately noticed the watermark orientation in relation to the typed info to look really screwy... any of you seen how this might be explained? i don't question his citizenship but maybe the admin caved to the birthers an issued a 'quick fix' i.e. we gotta release something and the document is the result of an intern's all nighter. jus' sayin'

LOL, stupid birther.

89 jaunte  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:08:53pm

re: #87 Targetpractice

Just throwing out comments MMA (mixed martial arts) style.

90 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:09:15pm

re: #86 Killgore Trout

Because they released the transcripts.

That's neither here, nor there - the transcripts are new, but the police reports aren't. Piss poor journalism, as I said.

91 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:09:35pm

Anyone else with mousing problems? Hitting anyone's dinger closes the thread and moves me to the top of the blog.

92 LadyBehir  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:09:38pm

Question for all you smart people here - and that most certainly is not sarc - are any of you worried about reactor 4 at Fukushima? Word is that it is leaning badly, with fuel rods stored on top. If it collapses, is it going to release an apocalyptic plume of radioactive cesium into the atmosphere? Or should I not worry at all?

93 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:10:07pm

re: #91 Decatur Deb

Anyone else with mousing problems? Hitting anyone's dinger closes the thread and moves me to the top of the blog.

Yes. Dinging or checking a profile sends me to the front page.

94 blueraven  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:10:32pm

re: #86 Killgore Trout

Because they released the transcripts.

Although we've seen reports that witnesses backed up Zimmerman's story we now have direct quotes placing Trayvon on top of Zimmerman while Z is calling for help.

Wow he received a punch in the nose and a couple of cuts on the back of the head, that did not require stitches

There is also conflicting witness testimony as you know.

Doesn't matter anyway, it matters who instigated the altercation. Nothing new here.

95 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:10:39pm

re: #91 Decatur Deb

Anyone else with mousing problems? Hitting anyone's dinger closes the thread and moves me to the top of the blog.

Yes.

96 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:10:45pm

Reload and it will work. Small problem in some new code.

97 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:10:54pm

re: #91 Decatur Deb

re: #93 Gus

Happens all the time w/iPhone & iPad. Welcome to my world.

98 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:11:11pm

re: #93 Gus

Yes. Dinging or checking a profile sends me to the front page.

Yup, profiles too.

99 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:11:32pm

Fixed!

100 BongCrodny  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:12:34pm

re: #84 live life like you have one

question for you folks: i saw the image of the birth certificate and immediately noticed the watermark orientation in relation to the typed info to look really screwy... any of you seen how this might be explained? i don't question his citizenship but maybe the admin caved to the birthers an issued a 'quick fix' i.e. we gotta release something and the document is the result of an intern's all nighter. jus' sayin'

This:

i saw the image of the birth certificate and immediately noticed the watermark orientation in relation to the typed info to look really screwy

...is not consistent with this:

i don't question his citizenship

101 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:13:20pm

re: #91 Decatur Deb

Anyone else with mousing problems? Hitting anyone's dinger closes the thread and moves me to the top of the blog.

Clean as a whistle here

102 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:13:30pm

re: #92 LadyBehir

Question for all you smart people here - and that most certainly is not sarc - are any of you worried about reactor 4 at Fukushima? Word is that it is leaning badly, with fuel rods stored on top. If it collapses, is it going to release an apocalyptic plume of radioactive cesium into the atmosphere? Or should I not worry at all?

How close are you?

"The solution to pollution is dilution."

103 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:13:59pm

re: #94 blueraven

it matters who instigated the altercation

It depends.

104 RogueOne  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:14:45pm

re: #89 jaunte

Just throwing out comments MMA (mixed martial arts) style.

Drive-by ding

105 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:15:08pm

re: #92 LadyBehir

Word is that it is leaning badly,

Pisa's been leaning for eons without an issue!!
//

106 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:16:17pm
107 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:17:03pm

re: #106 Gus

[Embedded content]

108 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:17:20pm

re: #90 May Day! May Day!

That's neither here, nor there - the transcripts are new, but the police reports aren't. Piss poor journalism, as I said.

I think the transcripts are interesting in that they confirm what we've seen in the reports but you're right, nothing new. The real piss poor journalism is that about 70% of the articles being published this afternoon are focusing on the salacious angle that Trayvon had smoked pot.

109 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:17:47pm

Hope Zimmerman gets at least 10 years.

110 freetoken  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:18:27pm

re: #92 LadyBehir

There are many continuing problems with Fukashima plant 1 reactors 1 through 4, still, and it doesn't get a lot of coverage.

However, let's be clear about the word "apocalyptic". While units 1 and 2 are leaking underground, unless you are in the immediate vicinity those won't be of any issue to us over here. As for unit 4 and the stored rods - if the remains of the structure collapses and the rods all pile up... and are not covered with water, then yes radioactive isotopes will probably escape into the air. But again, being so far from the source it really isn't something to worry about in this country. However, for anyone living in that vicinity it is something about which they should worry.

111 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:18:33pm

re: #107 Gus

[Embedded content]

What does that show?

112 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:18:56pm

re: #107 Gus

[Embedded content]

Wasn't the NYT complaining that the police didn't lay down tarps over the crime scene to preserve evidence in the rain? That sure looks like a tarp to me.

113 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:19:21pm

re: #111 Decatur Deb

What does that show?

A plastic yellow tarp on the ground with a can of Arizona Ice Tea on top of it.

114 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:20:15pm
115 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:20:28pm

re: #112 Killgore Trout

Wasn't the NYT complaining that the police didn't lay down tarps over the crime scene to preserve evidence in the rain? That sure looks like a tarp to me.

10 years.

116 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:20:34pm

re: #112 Killgore Trout

Wasn't the NYT complaining that the police didn't lay down tarps over the crime scene to preserve evidence in the rain? That sure looks like a tarp to me.

re: #113 Gus

A plastic yellow tarp on the ground with a can of Arizona Ice Tea on top of it.

Why is the can on top of the 'protective' tarp?

117 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:20:36pm

re: #109 Gus

Hope Zimmerman gets at least 10 years.

Yeah ,,, why waste all this time on a pesky trial with evidence and testimony and blah blah blah lawyer-ese!!

118 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:21:05pm

re: #117 sattv4u2

Yeah ,,, why waste all this time on a pesky trial with evidence and testimony and blah blah blah lawyer-ese!!

10 years.

119 Targetpractice  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:21:40pm

re: #118 Gus

10 years.

Not likely.

120 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:21:41pm

re: #118 Gus

10 years.

Your LP must have a scratch on it

It's seems to be stuck

121 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:21:50pm

re: #100 BongCrodny

This:

...is not consistent with this:

i am reacting to what i saw in the image. read the full post. a quick solution that stirred these people up even more i.e. the admin. should've just ignored all this rather than try to placate with some half assed release. if you can't get the watermark right, don't bother. that's what water marks are for, to complicate forgery.

sheesh, ya'll are sensitive.

122 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:22:10pm

re: #117 sattv4u2

Yeah ,,, why waste all this time on a pesky trial with evidence and testimony and blah blah blah lawyer-ese!!

I've seen you complain about putting words into other people's mouths.

You know very well Gus didn't say a word against the trial.

123 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:22:31pm

re: #114 Gus

[Embedded content]

Guns don't kill people, legislators kill people.

124 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:22:44pm

re: #112 Killgore Trout

Wasn't the NYT complaining that the police didn't lay down tarps over the crime scene to preserve evidence in the rain? That sure looks like a tarp to me.

You and your pesky details

10 YEARS!!! (10 years)

{wiggles fingers in the air}

125 blueraven  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:22:46pm

re: #121 live life like you have one

i am reacting to what i saw in the image. read the full post. a quick solution that stirred these people up even more i.e. the admin. should've just ignored all this rather than try to placate with some half assed release. if you can't get the watermark right, don't bother. that's what water marks are for, to complicate forgery.

sheesh, ya'll are sensitive.

Fuck off troll.

126 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:22:53pm

re: #121 live life like you have one

i am reacting to what i saw in the image. read the full post. a quick solution that stirred these people up even more i.e. the admin. should've just ignored all this rather than try to placate with some half assed release. if you can't get the watermark right, don't bother. that's what water marks are for, to complicate forgery.

sheesh, ya'll are sensitive.

It's really easy tho - it's authentic.

127 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:22:54pm

re: #88 May Day! May Day!

LOL, stupid birther.

LOL, no meaningful response.

128 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:22:58pm

Trayvon Martin Case Shadowed by Series of Police Missteps

¶ The police were not able to cover the crime scene to shield evidence from the rain, and any blood from cuts that Mr. Zimmerman suffered when he said Mr. Martin pounded his head into a sidewalk may have been washed away.

Well, looks like we can probably scratch that one off the list.

129 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:22:58pm

re: #122 May Day! May Day!

I've seen you complain about putting words into other people's mouths.

You know very well Gus didn't say a word against the trial.

Thanks. Yep. Was thinking about explaining but didn't bother. ;)

130 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:23:15pm

re: #122 May Day! May Day!

I've seen you complain about putting words into other people's mouths.

You know very well Gus didn't say a word against the trial.

Yet he already has Z convicted AND sentenced !

131 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:23:26pm

re: #124 sattv4u2

You and your pesky details

10 YEARS!!! (10 years)

{wiggles fingers in the air

10 years,,,

132 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:23:51pm

re: #130 sattv4u2

Yet he already has Z convicted AND sentenced !

Need some ointment?

133 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:23:57pm

re: #127 live life like you have one

LOL, no meaningful response.

"Stupid birther" is an objective description of you. Pretty meaningful, no?

134 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:24:30pm

re: #132 Gus

Need some ointment?

Nah,, Unlike you, i'm not glued to my LGF chair

135 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:24:37pm

Lol

136 blueraven  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:25:11pm

re: #128 Killgore Trout

Trayvon Martin Case Shadowed by Series of Police Missteps

Well, looks like we can probably scratch that one off the list.

Covering the body does not mean they covered the entire crime scene.

137 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:25:12pm

re: #134 sattv4u2

Nah,, Unlike you, i'm not glued to my LGF chair

Interesting rhetoric. I've heard that before at places like Diary of Douchbags.

138 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:25:29pm

re: #130 sattv4u2

Yet he already has Z convicted AND sentenced !

No he hasn't. Stop BSing.

139 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:25:50pm

RT @thinkprogress: According to the police report, Trayvon's body was under this yellow tarp, w/his Ice Tea on top pic.twitter.com/OplJuerW

140 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:25:52pm

re: #116 Decatur Deb

re: #113 Gus

Why is the can on top of the 'protective' tarp?

Probably to take the picture of it while preserving DNA, blood or any other evidence that might be on the grass.

141 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:26:02pm

re: #138 May Day! May Day!

No he hasn't. Stop BSing.

"10 years" was what,,, an open mind?

142 Mich-again  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:26:21pm

re: #118 Gus

10 years.

I hope the investigation eventually digs into the ones who enabled Zimmerman and fed his warped mind. The Sanford Police Department.

They had every reason to know he was an overzealous wanna be cop with a handgun permit. He repeatedly called 911 to report suspicious black people in the neighborhood and to tell them garage doors were opened, his roommate was being mean to him. Anyone else spams the 911 service and they get a visit from the police at the very least. But the Sanford Police used him as their eyes and ears and encouraged him to keep on pretending to be a cop. Then when the shit hits the fan they did everything they could to keep it hush hush and let him get away with it. There is more to the story here..

143 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:26:36pm

Keep the kid's possession with him.

144 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:26:59pm

re: #133 May Day! May Day!

not in relation to the QUESTION , no one looks critically at what is shoved under their noses?

145 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:27:26pm

re: #141 sattv4u2

"10 years" was what,,, an open mind?

Um, it was an expressed hope. For a verdict after a trial. Duh?

146 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:28:08pm

re: #145 May Day! May Day!

Um, it was an expressed hope. For a verdict after a trial. Duh?

I also don't have magical powers. ;)

147 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:28:12pm

re: #144 live life like you have one

not in relation to the QUESTION , no one looks critically at what is shoved under their noses?

Yes we do, in this case the document is legit, next question.

148 Mich-again  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:28:25pm

Well if a warning shot gets you 20 years hard time in the Florida ...

149 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:28:44pm

re: #80 May Day! May Day!

Poor journalism. We've had the reports all along. Why are they presented as something new?

What seems to be new for me, in a sense, is that this was a release of documents from the prosecutor.

From what I've seen so far, the documents don't provide justification for the charge of murder. I was thinking that maybe the prosecutor had some evidence that hadn't yet been released - evidence that undermined Zimmerman's story...

It's looking that that wasn't the case. It would seem odd that the prosecutor would hold back on some of the evidence but release only evidence that, for the most part, backs what Zimmerman has claimed.

This looks like a case where SYG means that: someone trolling for trouble with a gun can instigate a confrontation (by profiling Martin), claim that he feared for his life subsequently, kill someone who was minding his own business prior to the confrontation, and walk.

This case is about SYG. The question is whether this incident will result in any modifications to the law. I like to hope so, but tend to doubt that there will be sufficient political will to overcome the NRA's power and the political will of rightwingers and libertarians.

150 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:28:52pm

re: #125 blueraven

still no answer to my QUESTION, weak

151 goddamnedfrank  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:28:53pm

re: #84 live life like you have one

question for you folks: i saw the image of the birth certificate and immediately noticed the watermark orientation in relation to the typed info to look really screwy... any of you seen how this might be explained? i don't question his citizenship but maybe the admin caved to the birthers an issued a 'quick fix' i.e. we gotta release something and the document is the result of an intern's all nighter. jus' sayin'

The information came from a bound official records book page that was scanned in reflection mode, then overlayed onto a security background, printed and stamped. There is no watermark. True watermarks can only be revealed by a transmission scanner, as when you hold up currency so a light source shines through it, they're invisible when viewed solely by reflected light.

I have an M.S. in photography / modern digital imaging, let me know if you have any further questions.

152 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:28:53pm

re: #148 Mich-again

Well if a warning shot gets you 20 years hard time in the Florida ...

I like it! Bwahahaha!

153 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:32:31pm

re: #151 goddamnedfrank

thank you for answering my question.

sheesh

154 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:35:16pm

re: #145 May Day! May Day!

Um, it was an expressed hope. For a verdict after a trial. Duh?

I picked 10 years because of Florida's 10-20-Life law. Normally something like this carries a sentence of about 3 years or more. Typically a cop will get something like 3 years. Of course if I said "10 years!" in certain circles they'd probably boo me since they'd be "hoping" for a life sentence. I personally don't think that Zimmerman deserves life. He could also walk. Not much we can do other than wait for the trial. I'm really tired of talking about this case.

155 Lidane  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:35:32pm

re: #84 live life like you have one

LAYERZ! OMG!

I hear there are Adobe tutorials that can answer your question. Try seeking them out.

156 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:36:13pm

re: #145 May Day! May Day!

Um, it was an expressed hope. For a verdict after a trial. Duh?

So again, without bothering to hear/see all the evidence/ witnesses

distinction without a difference

157 Mich-again  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:36:29pm

re: #152 Gus

I like it! Bwahahaha!

Florida penalizes those with bad aim.

158 blueraven  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:37:05pm

re: #155 Lidane

I hear there are Adobe tutorials that can answer your question. Try seeking them out.

He doesn't want answers...he just wants to ask questions.

159 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:37:45pm

re: #156 sattv4u2

So again, without bothering to hear/see all the evidence/ witnesses

distinction without a difference

I should down-ding that but I think the derpishness is self-evident. O_o

160 Mich-again  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:38:13pm

re: #151 goddamnedfrank

The lack of any real evidence is all the proof the birthers need. It goes to show just how far the other side will go to cover up the truth.

161 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:38:33pm

re: #84 live life like you have one

Shakes head and sighs.

162 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:41:11pm

re: #154 Gus

I picked 10 years because of Florida's 10-20-Life law. Normally something like this carries a sentence of about 3 years or more. Typically a cop will get something like 3 years. Of course if I said "10 years!" in certain circles they'd probably boo me since they'd be "hoping" for a life sentence. I personally don't think that Zimmerman deserves life. He could also walk. Not much we can do other than wait for the trial. I'm really tired of talking about this case.

I also happen to believe he deserves "something" because of a simple causal chain at the beginning of which stands Z and his stalking. How much this something is - I don't know, but a few years min.

That is regardless of TM's and Z's behavior during the conflict itself. I.e. it is my minimum for Z under the very best/charitable interpretation of his actions during the altercation. I.e. it can get worse than that with new evidence, but can't get better.

163 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:41:34pm

re: #151 goddamnedfrank

please be civil. i know my question does not fit in to the lgf orthodoxy.

i assumed the released image was a copy/scan of the original document. so the original document's watermark would not have been visible in the scanning process used today? how come they superimposed the contemporary image onto a watermark? i assume the original is typed on a blank form formatted on watermark paper? early sixties technology. i truly appreciate your insight. can't a fellow ponder what he sees?

i am not a birther or a troll. i asked a question few seem willing to ponder.

164 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:41:48pm

re: #39 wrenchwench

In and out...poked in just in time for that!

/for god's sake don't let b_sharp read that comment...

Just keep it up.

165 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:41:50pm

re: #159 Gus

I should down-ding that but I think the derpishness is self-evident. O_o

OH NO ,, PLEASE,,, NO !!!!

166 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:42:50pm

re: #47 sattv4u2

Thats right

Thats why I wanted to know!

There may be something I haven't tried using ,,, yet!!

Using your head is usually a good option.

167 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:42:53pm

re: #149 Talking Point Detective

I was thinking that maybe the prosecutor had some evidence that hadn't yet been released - evidence that undermined Zimmerman's story...

It's looking that that wasn't the case. It would seem odd that the prosecutor would hold back on some of the evidence but release only evidence that, for the most part, backs what Zimmerman has claimed.

The only possibility I can think of that might vindicate the prosecution is that although these documents originated from the prosecutor the leaks are probably coming from Zimmerman's team. They might be selecting material that boosts their case and keeping quiet on the other stuff. It's a bit of a stretch. I think it's more likely that they charged him just to pacify Rev, Al, the Black Panthers, and let community tensions calm down.

168 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:43:13pm

re: #156 sattv4u2

So again, without bothering to hear/see all the evidence/ witnesses

distinction without a difference

Um, no. He didn't choose the maximum. This may change with evidence/witnesses.

The minimum is warranted based on what we already know and what no witnesses or new evidence can change (i.e., Z has caused the whole situation).

169 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:43:15pm

re: #166 Ghost of Insanity

Using your head is usually a good option.

Thats never worked for me in the past!

170 wrenchwench  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:43:50pm

re: #163 live life like you have one

please be civil. i know my question does not fit in to the lgf orthodoxy.

i assumed the released image was a copy/scan of the original document. so the original document's watermark would not have been visible in the scanning process used today? how come they superimposed the contemporary image onto a watermark? i assume the original is typed on a blank form formatted on watermark paper? early sixties technology. i truly appreciate your insight. can't a fellow ponder what he sees?

i am not a birther or a troll. i asked a question few seem willing to ponder.

There is no lgf orthodoxy.

There is a hell of a lot of discussion of this that preceded your registration at lgf. Use the search function or take your lumps. Or both!

171 goddamnedfrank  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:44:04pm

re: #160 Mich-again

The lack of any real evidence is all the proof the birthers need. It goes to show just how far the other side will go to cover up the truth.

Reflection, refraction, diffraction, dispersion, absorption, excitation and scatter. That is my ninja way.

172 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:44:13pm

re: #167 Killgore Trout

The only possibility I can think of that might vindicate the prosecution is that although these documents originated from the prosecutor the leaks are probably coming from Zimmerman's team. They might be selecting material that boosts their case and keeping quiet on the other stuff. It's a bit of a stretch. I think it's more likely that they charged him just to pacify Rev, Al, the Black Panthers, and let community tensions calm down.

Ah yes.

173 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:44:44pm

re: #168 May Day! May Day!

Um, no. He didn't choose the maximum. This may change with evidence/witnesses.

The minimum is warranted based on what we already know and what no witnesses or new evidence can change (i.e., Z has caused the whole situation).

I see
So because he "didn't choose the maximum" means he doesn't already have Z convicted prior to the testimony and evidence brought forth in a court of law!

174 Lidane  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:44:50pm

Hola Lizards!

Interview went well. I talked with the CEO and the VP of Product Management today. We went through my resume and background and interests. They can see me fitting into a few different roles, so my next step is meeting with a couple of department heads to determine where I'd fit best. Also, figuring out my salary requirements. Eep!

They've got offices in Buenos Aires and are doing a lot more business in Latin America, which helps me since Spanish was my first language. The CEO kept asking me about my language skills and we talked about my undergrad degree which was in International Business. I think he sees me in that direction, since they'd need someone who can actively talk to the companies that are approaching them.

We'll see. But I'm hopeful. :)

175 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:44:53pm

{sigh}

176 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:45:20pm

re: #163 live life like you have one

please be civil. i know my question does not fit in to the lgf orthodoxy.

i assumed the released image was a copy/scan of the original document. so the original document's watermark would not have been visible in the scanning process used today? how come they superimposed the contemporary image onto a watermark? i assume the original is typed on a blank form formatted on watermark paper? early sixties technology. i truly appreciate your insight. can't a fellow ponder what he sees?

i am not a birther or a troll. i asked a question few seem willing to ponder.

LOL @ stupid birther troll.

177 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:45:21pm

re: #170 wrenchwench

thanks, lumps are taken. cursing people out on the internet just seems a waste of time.

cheers

178 wrenchwench  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:45:41pm

re: #174 Lidane

That sounds great! Congrats!

179 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:46:46pm

re: #174 Lidane

Fingers crossed
Buenos Aires is GREAT,.,

180 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:47:00pm

re: #167 Killgore Trout

I think it's more likely that they charged him just to pacify Rev, Al, the Black Panthers, and let community tensions calm down.

No comment.

181 wrenchwench  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:47:07pm

re: #177 live life like you have one

thanks, lumps are taken. cursing people out on the internet just seems a waste of time.

cheers

I don't see why cursing someone out would be much more of a waste than saying nice things.

182 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:47:34pm

And on that note, the long quiet drive home beckons

183 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:47:53pm

re: #180 May Day! May Day!

No comment.

Riehlisms.

//

184 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:48:08pm

re: #174 Lidane

Hola Lizards!

Interview went well. I talked with the CEO and the VP of Product Management today. We went through my resume and background and interests. They can see me fitting into a few different roles, so my next step is meeting with a couple of department heads to determine where I'd fit best. Also, figuring out my salary requirements. Eep!

They've got offices in Buenos Aires and are doing a lot more business in Latin America, which helps me since Spanish was my first language. The CEO kept asking me about my language skills and we talked about my undergrad degree which was in International Business. I think he sees me in that direction, since they'd need someone who can actively talk to the companies that are approaching them.

We'll see. But I'm hopeful. :)

Best of luck to you!

185 wrenchwench  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:48:18pm

re: #180 May Day! May Day!

No comment.

Looks like a comment to me.

186 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:48:55pm

re: #185 wrenchwench

Looks like a comment to me.

No comment

187 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:48:57pm

re: #176 May Day! May Day!

188 jaunte  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:49:10pm

*being quietly civil*

189 Lidane  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:49:19pm

re: #179 sattv4u2

Fingers crossed
Buenos Aires is GREAT,.,

Never been to Argentina, but a grad school classmate of mine lived there for a while. If I got the Latin American role, I'd be based here in Austin, but I'd travel to Buenos Aires and wherever else that new business comes in (Peru and Venezuela were both mentioned) to find out their needs and sell them on what the company does.

190 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:49:22pm

Bugger.

191 Kragar  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:49:28pm

re: #185 wrenchwench

Looks like a comment to me.

This post intentionally left blank.

192 wrenchwench  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:49:40pm

re: #187 live life like you have one

Now that's no comment.

193 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:50:21pm

re: #182 sattv4u2

And on that note, the long quiet drive home beckons

10 years!

194 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:51:04pm

re: #173 sattv4u2

I see
So because he "didn't choose the maximum" means he doesn't already have Z convicted prior to the testimony and evidence brought forth in a court of law!

Of course. Zimmerman shouldn't walk free in any case. So ideally, the only thing evidence and witnesses can do is worsen his predicament.

195 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:51:32pm

re: #163 live life like you have one

please be civil. i know my question does not fit in to the lgf orthodoxy.

i assumed the released image was a copy/scan of the original document. so the original document's watermark would not have been visible in the scanning process used today? how come they superimposed the contemporary image onto a watermark? i assume the original is typed on a blank form formatted on watermark paper? early sixties technology. i truly appreciate your insight. can't a fellow ponder what he sees?

i am not a birther or a troll. i asked a question few seem willing to ponder.

OFFS.

Official, sealed copies are printed on watermarked paper. Years ago, they didn't have this technology. The official sealed copy of my BC that I requested in 1970 is a white-on-black photocopy. If I requested another official sealed copy today, it would be printed on watermark.

why are people so fucking stupid?

196 freetoken  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:51:42pm

re: #180 May Day! May Day!

197 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:52:11pm

Time to get back to pissing off the Feline Overlords and a nosy neighbor.

Back in a few.

198 jaunte  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:52:19pm

[Link: lmgtfy.com...]

199 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:52:34pm

re: #192 wrenchwench

Now that's no comment.

That's still a comment.

200 Lidane  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:52:59pm

re: #195 Learned Mother of Zion

why are people so fucking stupid?

We're just asking questions! Why do you hate questions?

///

201 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:53:57pm

re: #198 jaunte

[Link: lmgtfy.com...]

How did you do that?

202 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:54:17pm

re: #196 freetoken

Reading the Jesus book finally, and it's not so bad.

203 jaunte  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:55:08pm

re: #201 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

You can do it too!
[Link: lmgtfy.com...]

204 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:55:39pm

re: #201 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

How did you do that?

[Link: lmgtfy.com...]

205 freetoken  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:57:06pm

re: #202 May Day! May Day!

Reading the Jesus book finally, and it's not so bad.

We can compare notes when finished.

206 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:58:46pm

Hmm, so it looks like we've picked up one of those Question-Asking Non-Birthers again.

207 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:59:19pm

re: #206 Charles Johnson

Hmm, so it looks like we've picked up one of those Question-Asking Non-Birthers again.

There is an ointment for that! /

208 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:01:06pm

re: #207 May Day! May Day!

There is an ointment for that! /

I'm here to help.

209 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:02:20pm

re: #195 Learned Mother of Zion

OFFS.

Official, sealed copies are printed on watermarked paper. Years ago, they didn't have this technology. The official sealed copy of my BC that I requested in 1970 is a white-on-black photocopy. If I requested another official sealed copy today, it would be printed on watermark.

why are people so fucking stupid?

Wait--people don't realize that? They NEVER give you the original. You always get a copy of the original.

210 Mich-again  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:02:52pm

Oh yeah, well can someone explain why Obama has a watermark for a birthmark? /

211 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:03:17pm

re: #210 Mich-again

Oh yeah, well can someone explain why Obama has a watermark for a birthmark? /

He's a MERMAN!

212 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:03:28pm

re: #210 Mich-again

Oh yeah, well can someone explain why Obama has a watermark for a birthmark? /

Wait, Obama has layers?

213 goddamnedfrank  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:04:20pm

re: #163 live life like you have one

please be civil. i know my question does not fit in to the lgf orthodoxy.

i assumed the released image was a copy/scan of the original document. so the original document's watermark would not have been visible in the scanning process used today?

Assuming the original even had a watermark - no, reflective flat bed scans and photographs taken with reflected light cannot show watermarks.

how come they superimposed the contemporary image onto a watermark?

They didn't. The green background isn't a watermark. It may simply be the official background chosen for copies of official records by the State of Hawaii. It might be a copyproof background like those used on RX paper that Hawaii was able to rescan once stamped for the .pdf on a scanner that had its copyproof circuitry disabled. I don't live in or work for the State of Hawaii so I don't have any special insight into the specifics.

i assume the original is typed on a blank form formatted on watermark paper?

You know what they say about assuming things. It's possible, however I have no insight into the kinds of paper used in bound records books maintained by the State of Hawaii and assume nothing.

early sixties technology. i truly appreciate your insight. can't a fellow ponder what he sees?

Sure, but you've been using terms incorrectly. There simply is no watermark.

i am not a birther or a troll. i asked a question few seem willing to ponder.

You're late to the discussion and assume it hasn't taken place. Assumptions, again ...

214 freetoken  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:05:58pm

We don't need no stinkin' food laws... or maybe we do:

'It was just nasty,' says 14-year-old boy who found finger piece in sandwich from Jackson, Michigan Arby's

When her son exclaimed he found a piece of a finger in his Arby’s junior roast beef sandwich last week, Jamie Vail thought the 14-year-old was goofing around.

He wasn’t.

In his last bites, Ryan Hart said he tasted something like rubber. It was tough to chew, and he said he spit the piece of flesh from his mouth.

“I was like, ‘that gots to be a finger,’” he said Wednesday evening from his Blackman Township home.

“I was about to puke... It was just nasty."

The piece appeared to be the back of a finger, including the pad and extending beyond the first knuckle, said Vail and her friend, Joe Wheaton, who accompanied Vail and Ryan on Friday to Arby’s on N. West Avenue. Vail and Wheaton estimated the portion was about an eighth to a quarter inch thick and maybe an inch or more long.

“It was unbelievable,” Vail said and called the discovery disgusting, “just gross," and worrisome.

An employee had cut her finger on a meat slicer in the restaurant at 952 N. West Ave., Jackson police and the Jackson County Health Department reported.

Steve Hall, environmental health director for the Jackson County Health Department, said he believed she left her station and other workers were filling an order or orders before they became aware of what happened.

“Somebody loses a finger, and you keep sending food out the window? I can’t believe that,” Vail said.

The business was packed, she said. "They should have shut it down."

Upon learning of the “isolated and unfortunate accident,” the franchisee’s restaurant team stopped food production and thoroughly cleaned and sanitized the restaurant, John Gray wrote in a statement. Gray is the vice president for corporate communications and public relations for Atlanta-based Arby’s Restaurant Group Inc. The local manager deferred comment.

Arby's did not close.

[...]

215 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:06:32pm

re: #174 Lidane

Hola Lizards!

Interview went well. I talked with the CEO and the VP of Product Management today. We went through my resume and background and interests. They can see me fitting into a few different roles, so my next step is meeting with a couple of department heads to determine where I'd fit best. Also, figuring out my salary requirements. Eep!

They've got offices in Buenos Aires and are doing a lot more business in Latin America, which helps me since Spanish was my first language. The CEO kept asking me about my language skills and we talked about my undergrad degree which was in International Business. I think he sees me in that direction, since they'd need someone who can actively talk to the companies that are approaching them.

We'll see. But I'm hopeful. :)

Just make sure you stick around on LGF. I may need to borrow some money, so I'd like to know where I can contact you.

216 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:07:54pm

re: #214 freetoken

We don't need no stinkin' food laws... or maybe we do:

'It was just nasty,' says 14-year-old boy who found finger piece in sandwich from Jackson, Michigan Arby's

Arby's! Yuck. I never liked their "food".

217 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:08:09pm

re: #185 wrenchwench

Looks like a comment to me.

All that in and outing you were doing earlier has probably affected your eye sight.

218 freetoken  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:09:37pm

re: #216 Gus

Arby's! Yuck. I never liked their "food".

The young guy probably wouldn't have been able to differentiate the finger on taste alone. It was only the sinewy texture that gave it away.

219 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:09:57pm

re: #214 freetoken

We don't need no stinkin' food laws... or maybe we do:

'It was just nasty,' says 14-year-old boy who found finger piece in sandwich from Jackson, Michigan Arby's

How many of these "found something gross in my fast food" lawsuits have turned out to be scams?

220 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:10:28pm

re: #218 freetoken

The young guy probably wouldn't have been able to differentiate the finger on taste alone. It was only the sinewy texture that gave it away.

Pink slime, ground beef, human finger... what's the difference?

//

221 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:11:18pm

re: #213 goddamnedfrank

thanks again. i searched the lgf history and got a quick lesson in pdf layers etc etc etc.

i guess i need to review the entire lgf archive before i post again.

enjoy

222 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:11:27pm

re: #195 Learned Mother of Zion

OFFS.

Official, sealed copies are printed on watermarked paper. Years ago, they didn't have this technology. The official sealed copy of my BC that I requested in 1970 is a white-on-black photocopy. If I requested another official sealed copy today, it would be printed on watermark.

why are people so fucking stupid?

A question that isn't a request for information is generally a back-handed and gutless way of questioning the honesty of the person questioned.

223 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:11:51pm

re: #219 Learned Mother of Zion

How many of these "found something gross in my fast food" lawsuits have turned out to be scams?

I see. So we're going to judge this case without all the evidence and without a trial.

//

224 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:12:20pm

re: #215 Ghost of Insanity

There's mold on your av. Just thought I'd let you know.

225 Targetpractice  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:12:21pm

re: #212 May Day! May Day!

Wait, Obama has layers?

So, does that make him an ogre...or an onion?

//

226 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:12:26pm

re: #212 May Day! May Day!

Wait, Obama has layers?

Like an onion.

227 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:13:20pm

re: #214 freetoken

We don't need no stinkin' food laws... or maybe we do:

'It was just nasty,' says 14-year-old boy who found finger piece in sandwich from Jackson, Michigan Arby's

Some people have all the fun.

228 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:14:21pm

re: #224 May Day! May Day!

There's mold on your av. Just thought I'd let you know.

I'm trying to grow some 'shrooms.

229 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:15:04pm

re: #206 Charles Johnson

mutually exclusive?

230 Interesting Times  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:16:34pm
231 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:20:26pm

Some mangaka should do an Uzumaki-like story, but about layers.

232 blueraven  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:20:46pm

re: #229 live life like you have one

Why dont you take your questions over to the breitbarts or WND.
I'm sure they will give you an eyeful and appreciate all your subtlety. /

233 Targetpractice  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:22:03pm

re: #231 May Day! May Day!

Some mangaka should do an Uzumaki-like story, but about layers.

*shudders*

234 Interesting Times  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:22:48pm
235 Mich-again  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:23:05pm

re: #225 Targetpractice

So, does that make him an ogre...or an onion?

//

Or a parfait ?? No it can't be that. Everyone loves parfait.

236 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:23:32pm

re: #232 blueraven

too late, brought 'em here. subtlety noted

237 Daniel Ballard  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:24:33pm

re: #112 Killgore Trout

I also recall not being able to see the injuries we now know are real. I also recall a dearth of corroborating witnesses. Many of us may have a hard time facing facts that point to Trayvon beating Zimmerman to a point he was in legit fear for his life. Like screams for help before he shot.

238 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:25:14pm

re: #237 Daniel Ballard

I also recall not being able to see the injuries we now know are real. I also recall a dearth of corroborating witnesses. Many of us may have a hard time facing facts that point to Trayvon beating Zimmerman to a point he was in legit fear for his life. Like screams for help before he shot.

The screams that a pair of expert examiners of such things have both concluded are not in fact Zimmerman's voice.

239 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:26:34pm

re: #238 jamesfirecat

The screams that a pair of expert examiners of such things have both concluded are not in fact Zimmerman's voice.

Their conclusions weren't quite convincing IMHO.

240 Daniel Ballard  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:26:50pm

re: #238 jamesfirecat

Looks like you missed a witness report posted earlier. A report indicating Zimmerman was on the bottom getting beat. And his head injuries are a clue in exactly that direction.

241 blueraven  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:26:56pm

re: #237 Daniel Ballard

I also recall not being able to see the injuries we now know are real. I also recall a dearth of corroborating witnesses. Many of us may have a hard time facing facts that point to Trayvon beating Zimmerman to a point he was in legit fear for his life. Like screams for help before he shot.

A possible broken nose and a couple of head scrapes that required no stitches? really?

242 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:28:24pm

Whew. Just got back. Saw some suspicious looking black guy walking around the neighborhood so I sneaked up on him and got in his face asking him questions when suddenly he punches me in the nose which caused me to fall on my back and cut my head so I shot and killed him.

//

243 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:30:00pm

re: #240 Daniel Ballard

Looks like you missed a witness report posted earlier. A report indicating Zimmerman was on the bottom getting beat. And his head injuries are a clue in exactly that direction.

Show me the fact's that lead you to the conclusion that it was Zimmerman who screamed.

Here's my proof that it isn't/wasn't....

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

244 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:30:22pm

re: #238 jamesfirecat

The screams that a pair of expert examiners of such things have both concluded are not in fact Zimmerman's voice.

Yes, now we have a direct quote from a witness who was there on the scene saying that it was Zimmerman calling for help. It looks like the "experts" were wrong and the journalists were sloppy.

245 Daniel Ballard  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:31:00pm

re: #241 blueraven

A definite broken nose and head injuries that mostly only happen when you are down, on your back. If I was getting beat like that, I'd go to lethal force. Gun or not.

246 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:31:15pm

re: #241 blueraven

A possible broken nose and a couple of head scrapes that required no stitches? really?

Unfortunately yes.

There is no question in my mind that Trayvon was the victim and morally right in confronting a stalker, and that the SYG law is morally indefensible but it looks to me like the original story where Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman is likely to be accurate.

247 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:31:19pm

re: #244 Killgore Trout

Yes, now we have a direct quote from a witness who was there on the scene saying that it was Zimmerman calling for help. It looks like the "experts" were wrong and the journalists were sloppy.

Link?

248 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:31:29pm

Oh jeez.

249 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:32:47pm

re: #247 jamesfirecat

Link?

#74

250 Daniel Ballard  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:33:43pm

re: #243 jamesfirecat

James I have no proof. Nor do you. We only have reports. Be prepared for facts that make us both uncomfortable. Like the possibility Trayvon actually did beat Zimmerman down and kept hitting and hitting. It's a very real possibility. I don't like it. I don't like the fact Zimmerman followed Trayvon. Or had a gun. What I really hate is the proven fact a life was lost.

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

251 Daniel Ballard  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:34:12pm

re: #248 Gus

Oh jeez.

?

252 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:35:24pm

re: #167 Killgore Trout

I think it's more likely that they charged him just to pacify Rev, Al, the Black Panthers, and let community tensions calm down.

Jeebus. Sometimes you really just get fixated with rightwing memes.

You're claiming that the prosecutor would jettison her professional ethics and put her career on the line to appease Al Sharpton?

I assume that you don't really believe something that stupid, and kind of like Rush, somehow find amusement in tweaking lefties by saying flat out ridiculous shit. But, IMO, when you dip into that shit you only undermine the occasions when you do make legit points.

253 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:35:44pm

re: #249 Killgore Trout

#74

Thanks.

254 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:36:11pm

re: #243 jamesfirecat

Show me the fact's that lead you to the conclusion that it was Zimmerman who screamed.

Here's my proof that it isn't/wasn't...

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

It's not proof though.

One of those two is right out since it's just his subjective opinion (he doesn't use any software and such).

That leaves Owen. And in regard to him I agree with this comment: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

255 Obdicut  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:36:57pm

re: #250 Daniel Ballard

If the medical report on Zimmerman is accurate-- and it certainly matches up with what we've seen in the video and other photos-- he was very minorly injured. That's not what you get if you just keep hitting a guy and hitting a guy.

If that is what it takes to be in fear for your life, that level of injury, than that basically allows the use of lethal force in any fistfight.

Especially if Zimmerman were calling for help, knowing he's in a highly populated community and that someone will probably come quickly.

256 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:37:10pm

re: #242 Gus

Whew. Just got back. Saw some suspicious looking black guy walking around the neighborhood so I sneaked up on him and got in his face asking him questions when suddenly he punches me in the nose which caused me to fall on my back and cut my head so I shot and killed him.

//

You've always been kind of a dick.

Seriously, under normal circumstances the person being stalked would have the right to confront the stalker, and punching the stalker would be a minor infraction. Pulling the trigger in a situation like that is using force way beyond the reasonable, and I seriously doubt Zimmerman feared for his life. He probably feared getting a minor beating and the law gave him an excuse to test his gun.

257 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:38:18pm

re: #250 Daniel Ballard

James I have no proof. Nor do you. We only have reports. Be prepared for facts that make us both uncomfortable. Like the possibility Trayvon actually did beat Zimmerman down and kept hitting and hitting. It's a very real possibility. I don't like it. I don't like the fact Zimmerman followed Trayvon. Or had a gun. What I really hate is the proven fact a life was lost.

Honestly, given the way SYG works why is it a problem if Trayvon started beating the crap out of Zimmerman? He was being followed by an adult he didn't know in a van. If we are encouraging people to stand their ground Trayvon may have just thought he was defending himself from a killer/child molester.

The one thing we can say for sure is that if Zimmeran had followed the 911 operator's advice Trayvon would still be alive.

258 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:38:55pm

re: #245 Daniel Ballard

A definite broken nose and head injuries that mostly only happen when you are down, on your back. If I was getting beat like that, I'd go to lethal force. Gun or not.

I have been in that position, or one similar and all I did was grab the guy's hands and laugh myself silly. I was drunk.

259 Varek Raith  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:39:38pm

Thanks, NRA.
Paranoid doucebags.

260 Daniel Ballard  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:39:39pm

re: #255 Obdicut

Dude, on your back getting hit trapped under an assailant is one very scary place to be. Do you think one in that spot should wait for serious injury before escalating the force? Is that reasonable to you?

"getting hit mma style" is the quote I base this on. If that guy is wrong so am I. If not, then not.

261 Obdicut  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:40:24pm

re: #245 Daniel Ballard

A definite broken nose and head injuries that mostly only happen when you are down, on your back. If I was getting beat like that, I'd go to lethal force. Gun or not.

Really? That's nuts.

262 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:40:43pm

re: #250 Daniel Ballard

James I have no proof. Nor do you. We only have reports. Be prepared for facts that make us both uncomfortable. Like the possibility Trayvon actually did beat Zimmerman down and kept hitting and hitting. It's a very real possibility. I don't like it. I don't like the fact Zimmerman followed Trayvon. Or had a gun. What I really hate is the proven fact a life was lost.

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

I don't like where the evidence is heading either, but Zimmerman pulling the trigger was wrong on more than one level.

263 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:41:41pm

re: #255 Obdicut

If the medical report on Zimmerman is accurate-- and it certainly matches up with what we've seen in the video and other photos-- he was very minorly injured. That's not what you get if you just keep hitting a guy and hitting a guy.

If that is what it takes to be in fear for your life, that level of injury, than that basically allows the use of lethal force in any fistfight.

Especially if Zimmerman were calling for help, knowing he's in a highly populated community and that someone will probably come quickly.

There's also the possibility that he feared that Martin, upon seeing his gun, would go for the gun and then shoot him. There is absolutely no way to verify such a claim, and given that SYG does not require proportionality in the use of force, and eliminates the requirement to avoid a fatal outcome, SYG may very well get him off.

From what I understand, there should be a preliminary hearing to determine the viability of a SYG defense. It will be interesting to see the outcome; I have to wonder if the case may simply be dismissed at that point.

264 Obdicut  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:42:32pm

re: #260 Daniel Ballard

Dude, on your back getting hit trapped under an assailant is one very scary place to be. Do you think one in that spot should wait for serious injury before escalating the force? Is that reasonable to you?

Yes. Having been in that situation before, I know it very rarely ends in death. We don't really get that many people beaten to death with bare hands. For one thing, the guy's hands are going to fucking break before my head does.

Especially if I'm in a populated area and think that help is going to come. I wouldn't kill someone in that circumstance, unless I had some actual reason to believe they wanted to kill me.

265 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:42:55pm

re: #251 Daniel Ballard

?

I find the prospect of living in a nation where people are going to be shot and killed for every losing fist fight to be rather disturbing.

266 Daniel Ballard  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:43:50pm

re: #261 Obdicut

Nuts? okay how far along would you let a beating while trapped on your back go before you escalated? Maimed? Unconscious? Dead?

Pacifists are the bravest of us all, willing die rather than commit violence. Is that you?

267 Obdicut  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:44:01pm

re: #263 Talking Point Detective

Yeah. This might set the terrible, terrible precedent that, if someone is carrying a gun gets into a fistfight, they can shoot the other guy down and say that since the other guy noticed his weapon, that constituted lethal assault. Or claim the other guy made a grab for the weapon, something that's pretty hard to disprove.

Gun-owners should really hope that doesn't become the case.

268 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:44:28pm

re: #260 Daniel Ballard

Dude, on your back getting hit trapped under an assailant is one very scary place to be. Do you think one in that spot should wait for serious injury before escalating the force? Is that reasonable to you?

"getting hit mma style" is the quote I base this on. If that guy is wrong so am I. If not, then not.

The point is that in possessing a gun, Zimmerman puts himself into a situation where he might wind up having a fear for his life, whereas otherwise he wouldn't. It's hard for me to see how his action could reasonably be justified by saying that he feared for his life.

269 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:45:25pm

re: #267 Obdicut

Yeah. This might set the terrible, terrible precedent that, if someone is carrying a gun gets into a fistfight, they can shoot the other guy down and say that since the other guy noticed his weapon, that constituted lethal assault. Or claim the other guy made a grab for the weapon, something that's pretty hard to disprove.

Gun-owners should really hope that doesn't become the case.

That is why law enforcement was largely very critical of the law.

270 Daniel Ballard  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:45:27pm

re: #264 Obdicut

And using lethal force often does not kill. I'd strike at the throat, which is defined as lethal force. If it just let me get up and escape, with no loss of life great. But just that method is lethal force.

271 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:45:27pm

re: #250 Daniel Ballard

James I have no proof. Nor do you. We only have reports. Be prepared for facts that make us both uncomfortable. Like the possibility Trayvon actually did beat Zimmerman down and kept hitting and hitting. It's a very real possibility. I don't like it. I don't like the fact Zimmerman followed Trayvon. Or had a gun. What I really hate is the proven fact a life was lost.

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

If Travon beat his ass, he's justified

let's see: dude with a gun, in his car, following you back to your house like a rapist psycho


IT WAS SELF DEFENSE BECAUSE i STALKED HIM AND ATTACKED HIM AND THEN HE HIT BACK SO I HAD TO KILL HIM GOSH!!!

272 Obdicut  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:46:11pm

re: #266 Daniel Ballard

Nuts? okay how far along would you let a beating while trapped on your back go before you escalated? Maimed? Unconscious? Dead?

Like I said, if the guy is beating me with his hands, he's going to be breaking his fingers on my head and face, and he's going to be maimed before I am. It is really, really a bad idea to hit someone in the head and face with a bare hand.

Pacifists are the bravest of us all, willing die rather than commit violence. Is that you?

Huh? No. I'm not a pacifist. I'd be trying to get the guy off, kicking him in the head, etc. I just wouldn't think I had the right to kill him because he'd broken my nose and blacked my eyes and was still hitting me.

The almost ironic thing is that Zimmerman may have been authentically scared because he realized how freaked out he'd made Trayvon, that he'd terrified him.

273 gwangung  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:46:15pm

re: #254 May Day! May Day!

It's not proof though.

One of those two is right out since it's just his subjective opinion (he doesn't use any software and such).

Well not quite, not quite. If the courts accept his judgement as an expert, it's allowable. Courts accept "subjective judgement" that all the time.

(It's the courts accepting it that's the hurdle, of course. On the other hand, you have two different methodologies leading to the same results. In the sciences, that can raise your confidence in the end results).

274 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:46:29pm

re: #265 Gus

I find the prospect of living in a nation where people are going to be shot and killed for every losing fist fight to be rather disturbing.

I find the prospect of Florida being a US state disturbing in many ways

275 Daniel Ballard  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:46:32pm

re: #268 Talking Point Detective

Okay so your argument becomes he should have taken the beating as far as it went regardless of his own injuries. Okay that's a point. Not one I can agree with but it's valid.

276 gwangung  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:47:01pm

re: #266 Daniel Ballard

Nuts? okay how far along would you let a beating while trapped on your back go before you escalated?

Well, probably far beyond the point where the assailant had only one scrape.

277 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:47:14pm

re: #274 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

I find the prospect of Florida being a US state disturbing in many ways

278 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:47:22pm

One of the reporting officers was skeptical of Zimmerman's story because he had a history of vigilanteism, and it always involved young black men.

279 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:47:25pm

re: #260 Daniel Ballard

Dude, on your back getting hit trapped under an assailant is one very scary place to be. Do you think one in that spot should wait for serious injury before escalating the force? Is that reasonable to you?

"getting hit mma style" is the quote I base this on. If that guy is wrong so am I. If not, then not.

The wounds don't suggest severe pounding, except for the broken nose. It suggests to me that Trayvon belted him hard once and the rest was less so.

If Zimmerman's arms were free enough to pull the gun, they were likely free enough to stop the pounding.

280 Daniel Ballard  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:47:28pm

re: #272 Obdicut

Kicks to the head are lethal force. Ask any prosecutor. You just agreed with me.

281 Obdicut  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:47:39pm

re: #275 Daniel Ballard

I don't see anything in there about 'as far as it went'.

282 Mich-again  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:47:49pm

Zimmerman started the whole thing. He is responsible for how it ended.

283 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:48:23pm

anyone here ever been followed by a car at night while they were on foot, when they were around that age?

I sure have! More than once! Fucking scary! I cut across a school (that i knew the layout of) to shake the guys

284 gwangung  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:48:28pm

re: #275 Daniel Ballard

Okay so your argument becomes he should have taken the beating as far as it went regardless of his own injuries.

No, he's not making that argument.

285 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:48:30pm

re: #266 Daniel Ballard

Nuts? okay how far along would you let a beating while trapped on your back go before you escalated? Maimed? Unconscious? Dead?

Pacifists are the bravest of us all, willing die rather than commit violence. Is that you?

I don't know Obdi - but I would assume he wouldn't go following people around with a loaded gun.

Given that, it seems that your question focuses on the wrong area to determine whether what anyone did was justified.

286 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:48:31pm

re: #274 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

I find the prospect of Florida being a US state disturbing in many ways

287 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:48:48pm

re: #278 Charles Johnson

One of the reporting officers was skeptical of Zimmerman's story because he had a history of vigilanteism, and it always involved young black men.

but we totally can't talk about that
BECAUSE IT'S THE KILLGORE CONTRARIAN HOUR YIPEE

288 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:49:04pm

re: #277 Gus

whee

289 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:49:28pm

Heard this NPR report a little while ago - has a more balanced look at what's in the newly released documents. Audio isn't available online yet.

[Link: www.npr.org...]

290 Daniel Ballard  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:50:09pm

re: #279 Ghost of Insanity

How much injury would you volunteer to sustain while on your back before you escalated your force?

291 Varek Raith  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:50:10pm

Many LEA warned this kind of shit would happen if SYG laws passed. But the NRAGOP didn't, and still doesn't, give a shit.

292 Obdicut  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:50:33pm

re: #280 Daniel Ballard

Kicks to the head are lethal force. Ask any prosecutor. You just agreed with me.

Oh for fuck's sake. Don't be layweristic. They are not lethal force in the same way shooting a guy is, and you know it. Give me a break.

Any use of force is potentially lethal. Shooting a guy is different from kicking him in the head while you're lying on the ground-- it's not exactly the best leverage point, your'e not going to get that much force in it.

I don't think that shooting someone in response to getting beat on is an okay response-- especially if you had anything to do with that fight getting started. Because having that trump card is a dangerous goddamn thing-- the "Well, if this goes south, I can always shoot the guy" is going to be in that guy's head.

293 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:50:50pm

re: #264 Obdicut

Yes. Having been in that situation before, I know it very rarely ends in death. We don't really get that many people beaten to death with bare hands. For one thing, the guy's hands are going to fucking break before my head does.

Especially if I'm in a populated area and think that help is going to come. I wouldn't kill someone in that circumstance, unless I had some actual reason to believe they wanted to kill me.

As mentioned before, I've only been in that position once in real life but many times in Hapkido training. I really have trouble believing someone would be afraid for his life.

The law as it is gives people the excuse to stop thinking and just be stupid.

294 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:51:14pm

It was a simple mistake...we lied, we got caught...simple.

295 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:51:28pm

SYG with a gun? OK
SYG with your fists? Not OK

296 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:52:06pm

re: #290 Daniel Ballard

How much injury would you volunteer to sustain while on your back before you escalated your force?

the poor poor dear stalking the teenager with his gun in his car

finally, we can blame it all on the black kid, the republic is saved

because what would a black kid have to fear


in ever so totally colorblind florida

unarmed

on foot

at night

from a big dude following him like a rapist in his car? Gosh!!!

297 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:52:25pm

re: #266 Daniel Ballard

Nuts? okay how far along would you let a beating while trapped on your back go before you escalated? Maimed? Unconscious? Dead?

Pacifists are the bravest of us all, willing die rather than commit violence. Is that you?

What injuries did Zimmerman have that suggest to you it was an extended and life threatening beating?

298 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:52:36pm

re: #275 Daniel Ballard

Okay so your argument becomes he should have taken the beating as far as it went regardless of his own injuries. Okay that's a point. Not one I can agree with but it's valid.

No - my point is that he shouldn't be carrying a loaded gun on a neighborhood watch in the first place.

If didn't have the gun, he wouldn't have had the option of killing someone who was walking home from the store. If he didn't have the gun, even if he were following Martin, it's unlikely that an altercation would even have taken place.

He placed himself in the situation to "fear for his life" by virtue of a willful action. Unfortunately, he may well not be held responsible for a death that resulted from his poor judgement. He is responsible for being in a situation where he may have "feared for his life."

299 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:52:37pm

re: #280 Daniel Ballard

Kicks to the head are lethal force. Ask any prosecutor. You just agreed with me.

this is some real blog comment behavior right here

300 Varek Raith  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:52:58pm

re: #290 Daniel Ballard

How much injury would you volunteer to sustain while on your back before you escalated your force?

I sustained a greater injury walking into a cabinet door than Zimmerman received. Sorry, but he way over escalated.

301 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:53:16pm

re: #295 Gus

SYG with a gun? OK
SYG with your fists? Not OK

stand your ground when you're a woman? PRISON

302 Mich-again  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:53:22pm

re: #290 Daniel Ballard

How much injury would you volunteer to sustain while on your back before you escalated your force?

Well seeing as the on-site paramedics did not even issue a band aid, I would say Zimmerman was not even close to a life threatening situation. Really, people try to trump up Zimmerman's injuries. When he arrived at the police station, no blood on his coat or shirt, no bandages on his head.

303 palomino  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:53:27pm

re: #108 Killgore Trout

I think the transcripts are interesting in that they confirm what we've seen in the reports but you're right, nothing new. The real piss poor journalism is that about 70% of the articles being published this afternoon are focusing on the salacious angle that Trayvon had smoked pot.

You're right--it's absurd. As a Los Angeles HS teacher who went to college at USC, I know a thing or two about pot and 17-year olds. First, it stays in your bloodstream for quite a while, like a month or more. It's not like alcohol or cocaine, which are flushed out pretty fast.

Second, lots of 17 year olds smoke pot, at least occasionally. It rarely makes people violent and is certainly not an after the fact mitigating piece of info in terms of what went down that night. Except that this is how it will be used by those who see Zim as a hero rather than an irresponsible cop wanna-be. Cuz you know Trayvon was a "thug and so he got what he deserved."

It's a disgusting shame how little value is placed on the lives of young black men by so many people who see nothing more than a better-off-dead black gangster drug user.

304 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:53:36pm

re: #273 gwangung

Well not quite, not quite. If the courts accept his judgement as an expert, it's allowable. Courts accept "subjective judgement" that all the time.

(It's the courts accepting it that's the hurdle, of course. On the other hand, you have two different methodologies leading to the same results. In the sciences, that can raise your confidence in the end results).

What "not quite"? We're not in a court.

Call me after Owen's expertise is accepted and doesn't fall down under cross-examination, because the principles laid out in his interview sure as heck don't look like they support his conclusions in this case.

And if the court accepts a judgment of the other guy - who has no verifiable methodology to offer whatsoever, but rather relies on his "experience", that will be a circus, not a court.

305 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:53:59pm

Maybe I'm old fashioned. But I always thought that once you're and adult you stay away from teenagers? If some teenager punched me in the nose I'd have to think about how to react long and hard. I always thought an adult assaulting a minor was a no no.

306 gwangung  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:54:05pm

re: #290 Daniel Ballard

How much injury would you volunteer to sustain while on your back before you escalated your force?

Are you saying that lethal force is the first resort to a fist? Not a fist in return?

307 Varek Raith  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:54:25pm

SYG needs to go.

308 Obdicut  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:55:29pm

re: #295 Gus

Well, the law has covered a guy with a knife. The thing is it's just really, really hard to kill someone with your bare hands. People are tough as fuck, and your muscles get really weak after about a minute of fighting if you're not in great condition. Even when the intent to do serious harm is there, that's a reason a lot of fistfights wind up doing not much at all-- the combatants just don't have the strength to really pour in the damage.

This is why we picked up sticks, long ago, and started whacking the fuck out of deer and wolves and shit. The human hand sucks as a weapon. It is filled with nerves, easily-broken bones, and it's attached at this floppy joint that's easy to hurt. But it's motherfucking great at holding a stick so that you can whack it with five times the effect.

So SYG privledges instantly-lethal weapons, because it's pretty easy to prove someone wasn't in fear for their life if they killed someone with their bare hands-- you're going to pretty obviously incapacitate someone before you kill them, and most of the time you're not even going to be able to do that.

309 Daniel Ballard  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:55:37pm

re: #285 Talking Point Detective

I don't know Obdi - but I would assume he wouldn't go following people around with a loaded gun.

Given that, it seems that your question focuses on the wrong area to determine whether what anyone did was justified.

re: #292 Obdicut

Oh for fuck's sake. Don't be layweristic. They are not lethal force in the same way shooting a guy is, and you know it. Give me a break.

Any use of force is potentially lethal. Shooting a guy is different from kicking him in the head while you're lying on the ground-- it's not exactly the best leverage point, your'e not going to get that much force in it.

I don't think that shooting someone in response to getting beat on is an okay response-- especially if you had anything to do with that fight getting started. Because having that trump card is a dangerous goddamn thing-- the "Well, if this goes south, I can always shoot the guy" is going to be in that guy's head.

Okay so you find it reasonable to leave a gun in the holster while getting beat on the ground. Ohhh kaaay. Would you ask that of a cop?" I doubt it. And you suddenly call kicking a person in the head (which can kill) as not lethal force. But "anything" like say blocking a punch or a judo style take down is lethal.

I can clearly see some folks can't parse one part of an incident from another, and preconceptions will rule the day.

Have a fine evening folks, I'm off to a pleasant drink with friends.

310 gwangung  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:55:47pm

re: #304 May Day! May Day!

What "not quite"? We're not in a court.

Well, then I dismiss your objection. It's not sustained by anything like a careful consideration of credentials or evidence.

311 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:56:02pm

re: #307 Varek Raith

SYG needs to go.

SYG is a symptom of the sickness and obsession with firearm power fantasies, it's just the tip of the iceberg in the great big crazy that is America and its firearms fetish trip

312 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:56:18pm

Documents Show Cops Believed Trayvon Martin Killing Was ‘Ultimately Avoidable’

The killing of Trayvon Martin was “ultimately avoidable” if George Zimmerman had just stayed in his vehicle instead of pursuing the unarmed teen, Florida police investigators concluded in one of a series of reports on the case released late Thursday.

Instead, the Sanford Police Department investigators wrote, Zimmerman confronted the teen, ended up in a struggle and eventually shot him in the chest. In the end, Martin was dead and police were recommending the neighborhood watchman be brought up on a criminal charge of manslaughter...

313 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:56:27pm

re: #309 Daniel Ballard

re: #292 Obdicut

Okay so you find it reasonable to leave a gun in the holster while getting beat on the ground. Ohhh kaaay. Would you ask that of a cop?" I doubt it. And you suddenly call kicking a person in the head (which can kill) as not lethal force. But "anything" like say blocking a punch or a judo style take down is lethal.

I can clearly see some folks can't parse one part of an incident from another, and preconceptions will rule the day.

Have a fine evening folks, I'm off to a pleasant drink with friends.

weeeaaaak saaaaucccceeeee

314 Daniel Ballard  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:56:33pm

re: #297 Ghost of Insanity

The quote I wrote of up thread. "hitting mma style". As I also said if that is wrong so am I.

315 Simply Sarah  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:56:50pm

Remember, we can't look at this from a logical standpoint of what's actually reasonable or not. We have to look at this from the standpoint of the wacky SYG law. Under Shoot Your Gun and depending on the the mindset of the judge in this case, the simple fact that Trayvon defended himself my be considered enough of a threat to Zimmerman that blowing the poor kid away is covered, even though it certainly seems like it was Zimmerman's actions that initiated everything. We can go around in circles all we want, but in the end it probably all comes down to just how overly broad Florida's SYG law is.

I guess I'm just getting a bit wary of all this discussion since it's not going anywhere and just seems to be providing something for people to get at each others throats over.

316 jaunte  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:56:51pm

Re: kicks to the head: Houston police beat, stomp burglary suspect Chad Holley.

Police acquitted of official oppression:

[Link: www.thegrio.com...]

317 Daniel Ballard  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:56:57pm

re: #313 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

weeeaaak saaauccceee

Yawn.

318 gwangung  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:57:03pm

re: #309 Daniel Ballard

re: #292 Obdicut

Okay so you find it reasonable to leave a gun in the holster while getting beat on the ground. Ohhh kaaay. Would you ask that of a cop?" I doubt it.

We can and do.

THINK.

319 Obdicut  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:57:06pm

re: #304 May Day! May Day!

I agree. I think the expert testimony on the tapes is completely questionable, and anyone who'd testify with that little evidence makes me worried about why the hell they'd go out on that limb.

320 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:57:17pm

re: #312 Gus

Documents Show Cops Believed Trayvon Martin Killing Was ‘Ultimately Avoidable’

Documents show Scientists believe water is wet.

321 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:57:27pm

re: #275 Daniel Ballard

Okay so your argument becomes he should have taken the beating as far as it went regardless of his own injuries. Okay that's a point. Not one I can agree with but it's valid.

Zimmerman should have considered other methods before using his gun. Frankly, if Zimmerman was that bad at protecting himself against somebody 50lbs lighter then he, he should not have been on a Neighbourhood watch patrol by himself.

322 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:57:37pm

re: #317 Daniel Ballard

Yawn.

dude, when you say you're leaving and you don't leave, it doesn't work so well!

323 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:57:51pm

re: #290 Daniel Ballard

How much injury would you volunteer to sustain while on your back before you escalated your force?

You're ignoring everything that took place prior to that.

If he hadn't followed someone around with a loaded gun, he wouldn't have been in a situation to "decide" how much of a beating to take. Either no confrontation would have taken place, or he would have had to defend himself by some other means.

The fact that he decided to arm himself and follow Martin is the singular important decision point. I assume that you don't support that decision - therefore it seems to me to be rather pointless to defend his subsequent decisions as somehow being justified.

324 gwangung  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:58:15pm

re: #321 Ghost of Insanity

Zimmerman should have considered other methods before using his gun. Frankly, if Zimmerman was that bad at protecting himself against somebody 50lbs lighter then he, he should not have been on a Neighbourhood watch patrol by himself.

He shouldn't have let Martin get within arms reach.

325 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:58:16pm

re: #321 Ghost of Insanity

Zimmerman should have considered other methods before using his gun. Frankly, if Zimmerman was that bad at protecting himself against somebody 50lbs lighter then he, he should not have been on a Neighbourhood watch patrol by himself.

He wasn't part of any neighborhood watch group he was just going around being a vigiliante.

326 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:58:17pm

naturally the kid being stalked is the aggressor


naturally!

327 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:58:35pm

re: #323 Talking Point Detective

You're ignoring everything that took place prior to that.

this cannot be repeated enough

328 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:58:44pm

re: #310 gwangung

Well, then I dismiss your objection. It's not sustained by anything like a careful consideration of credentials or evidence.

?

329 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:58:47pm

re: #325 jamesfirecat

He wasn't part of any neighborhood watch group he was just going around being a vigiliante.

also this!

330 palomino  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:59:17pm

re: #260 Daniel Ballard

Dude, on your back getting hit trapped under an assailant is one very scary place to be. Do you think one in that spot should wait for serious injury before escalating the force? Is that reasonable to you?

"getting hit mma style" is the quote I base this on. If that guy is wrong so am I. If not, then not.

As far as being reasonable, does a civilian getting out of his truck carrying a loaded gun in order to pursue a "suspect" at night when he hasn't even seen a crime committed sound reasonable? Is it the kind of thing you, or any reasonable people you know, or any responsible person anywhere would think was a good call?

331 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:59:45pm

re: #311 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

SYG is a symptom of the sickness and obsession with firearm power fantasies, it's just the tip of the iceberg in the great big crazy that is America and its firearms fetish trip

Wars. Military. Patriots. Militias. Rambo. War movies. Vigilantism. Dirty Harry. Charles Bronson movies.

332 SpaceJesus  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:00:07pm

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you Fox News's viewership:

[Link: nation.foxnews.com...]

333 Daniel Ballard  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:00:17pm

re: #323 Talking Point Detective

One last reply on this.

Understanding why.. what he did is not the same as saying it was justified.

334 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:00:20pm

re: #331 Gus

Wars. Military. Patriots. Militias. Rambo. War movies. Vigilantism. Dirty Harry. Charles Bronson movies.

yep

335 Obdicut  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:00:27pm

re: #309 Daniel Ballard

Okay so you find it reasonable to leave a gun in the holster while getting beat on the ground. Ohhh kaaay.

Yes. I don't know why you find this hard to believe. I mean, I wouldn't be carrying the gun, but if I was, I'd know how much trust my fellow citizens were placing in me to use that responsibly. So I wouldn't kill someone unless I feared for my life.

Would you ask that of a cop?" I doubt it.

Yes, I would. I'd ask that they use a taser, or use their hand-to-hand combat training, and that they'd only kill the guy if they actually felt their lives were in danger.

And you suddenly call kicking a person in the head (which can kill) as not lethal force.

No, it can be lethal. But it is in no way the same way lethal as firing a bullet into someone, and you know this. I don't know why you've decided to make your stand on such trivial point. You can kill someone by punching them hard in the chest. But if you shoot someone in the chest, and punch someone hard in the chest, the shooting is going to kill them ten thousand times as often. So obviously, we can distinguish between "it might possibly be lethal" and "there is a very good chance it would be lethal".

336 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:00:39pm

re: #324 gwangung

He shouldn't have let Martin get within arms reach.

Seriously, that about says it all.

This boils down to an argument about whether you think someone has an obligation to avoid using deadly force.

The point of SYG was to eliminate that obligation.

It really isn't much more complicated than that.

337 Daniel Ballard  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:00:59pm

Good night.

338 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:01:45pm

re: #325 jamesfirecat

He wasn't part of any neighborhood watch group he was just going around being a vigiliante.

No one who was following neighborhood watch procedures would have: (1) been armed, (2) been alone, (3) not been in contact with other neighborhood watch members on the phone the whole time, (4) exited his car.

339 freetoken  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:02:32pm

America's gun fetish: A Nevada update

For starters, let's channel the zealous American gun enthusiast's customary reaction to gun violence and assert that Trayvon Martin should have been packing.

Then he could have shot George Zimmerman. And under Florida law, Martin would have been just standing his ground.

"Stand your ground." It doesn't sound like a law so much as an unwatchable Jason Statham movie.

That's no mere coincidence. Stand your ground laws, including the version passed in Nevada last year, are children of NRA lobbyists. And like trite dialogue spoken, or grunted, in a formulaic Hollywood shoot-'em-up, the rhetoric deployed by the NRA and its most devoted followers isn't designed to promote public health and safety or protect personal liberties, but to capitalize on adolescent-level gut sentiment.

The appeal of belligerent posturing -- of macho phrases like "stand your ground" -- is not confined to the teenage boys who are the prime target demographic of action movies. It works on politicians, too.

[...]

340 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:02:45pm

re: #290 Daniel Ballard

How much injury would you volunteer to sustain while on your back before you escalated your force?

I would have escalated my force immediately without resorting to a weapon. But then I know several ways to get out of that situation. I suspect Zimmerman was clueless and didn't bother training because he had a gun.

A gun can make people lazy and full of bravado.

341 Varek Raith  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:02:51pm

The NRAGOP pushed this shit, now they must take responsibility for it.

342 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:03:07pm

re: #332 SpaceJesus

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you Fox News's viewership:

[Link: nation.foxnews.com...]

Of course white-Hispanics mixes things up with that report. But I knew the right wingers would go insane.

343 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:03:21pm

re: #311 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

SYG is a symptom of the sickness and obsession with firearm power fantasies, it's just the tip of the iceberg in the great big crazy that is America and its firearms fetish trip

I really think it's about people being afraid that they're a pussy if they take steps to avoid a confrontation.

Because, you know, shooting someone with a gun is an act of bravery.

344 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:03:57pm

re: #340 Ghost of Insanity

I would have escalated my force immediately without resorting to a weapon. But then I know several ways to get out of that situation. I suspect Zimmerman was clueless and didn't bother training because he had a gun.

A gun can make people lazy and full of bravado.

Who needs courage when you have a gun?

345 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:04:18pm

I keep coming back to these facts:

Trayvon Martin was not doing anything illegal. He had a perfect right to be walking home in this neighborhood.

George Zimmerman was out driving around looking for trouble, and WRONGLY identified Martin as a possible criminal, then followed him and got out of his car to confront him -- with a gun.

This is why I have a very hard time picturing Zimmerman as someone who was legitimately defending himself. He initiated the confrontation, beyond any doubt. If Zimmerman hadn't been there, playing vigilante, Trayvon Martin would be alive.

346 gwangung  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:04:22pm

re: #336 Talking Point Detective

Seriously, that about says it all.

This boils down to an argument about whether you think someone has an obligation to avoid using deadly force.

The point of SYG was to eliminate that obligation.

It really isn't much more complicated than that.

I'd say it's about responsibility.

If you have a gun, you have a responsibility to use it if needed, but only if needed. Not being absolutely clear about your intentions is not being responsible. Allowing it to get within arms reach of an opponent WHEN YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO is not being responsible. (And don't lie about being snuck up on; the confrontation was on open ground, on a parkways 20-40 yards wide. You have to be irresponsibly unaware to let someone sneak up on you there).

347 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:04:23pm

re: #343 Talking Point Detective

I really think it's about people being afraid that they're a pussy if they take steps to avoid a confrontation.

Because, you know, shooting someone with a gun is an act of bravery.

that's certainly part of it

we live in a modern era but we treat guns as if we were living in the old west

348 palomino  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:05:02pm

re: #332 SpaceJesus

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you Fox News's viewership:

[Link: nation.foxnews.com...]

One reprehensible hateful comment after another, nearly all filled with ethnic slurs ("these Mexicans living around me are breeding like rabbits" was one of the nicer ones)

But there was one short post worth a second look:

F0X News - Rich people paying rich people to tell middle class people to blame the poor.

349 Obdicut  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:06:01pm

re: #340 Ghost of Insanity

That's the thing. If you have a gun, you have a trump card. So it really, really encourages risky behavior, and it brings a whole new penalty to that behavior. People like Zimmerman, with fantasies of being cops and violence in their pasts-- I can't think of a legal way to restrict their gun rights, given that he never got convicted and you can forbid someone from having a gun just because he's really gung ho.

But people like that have got to be dealt with socially, be told that their behavior isn't okay. Whereas I get the impression quite a lot of people encouraged Zimmerman. Even the police.

350 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:06:14pm

re: #348 palomino

One reprehensible hateful comment after another, nearly all filled with ethnic slurs ("these Mexicans living around me are breeding like rabbits" was one of the nicer ones)

But there was one short post worth a second look:

I believe you mean Rich people, paying rich people to tell the poor to blame the REALLY poor.

351 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:06:44pm

re: #314 Daniel Ballard

The quote I wrote of up thread. "hitting mma style". As I also said if that is wrong so am I.

If I have a gun in that situation, I might use it. That's why I don't put myself in such situations.

There have been a couple of times when I've had my house broken into, and I've kind of fantasized about what would have happened had I been armed and discovered someone in the act. I've had the feeling that it would somehow feel good to shoot someone who was violating my space in such a way.

And then I thought about how sick I would feel for taking someone's life - and realized that I would never want to even be in such a situation.

Zimmerman, specifically, sought such a situation out.

352 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:07:43pm

re: #308 Obdicut

Well, the law has covered a guy with a knife. The thing is it's just really, really hard to kill someone with your bare hands. People are tough as fuck, and your muscles get really weak after about a minute of fighting if you're not in great condition. Even when the intent to do serious harm is there, that's a reason a lot of fistfights wind up doing not much at all-- the combatants just don't have the strength to really pour in the damage.

This is why we picked up sticks, long ago, and started whacking the fuck out of deer and wolves and shit. The human hand sucks as a weapon. It is filled with nerves, easily-broken bones, and it's attached at this floppy joint that's easy to hurt. But it's motherfucking great at holding a stick so that you can whack it with five times the effect.

So SYG privledges instantly-lethal weapons, because it's pretty easy to prove someone wasn't in fear for their life if they killed someone with their bare hands-- you're going to pretty obviously incapacitate someone before you kill them, and most of the time you're not even going to be able to do that.

I suggest to anyone curious, if he/she is untrained, to go punch a heavy bag a couple of times and see how your wrists feel.

353 simoom  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:08:49pm

Anyone ever get the feeling that Jake Tapper makes ABC's political team follow Drudge or something?... because of the major networks, they're the only ones who so consistently seem to bite when the RW blogosphere comes up with whatever idiocy and then Drudge chums the waters:

^_ From the article:

A possible source of the so-called "birther" issue--or at least a potential cause of the rumors that have dogged President Barack Obama--has been identified.

Obama's former literary agency misidentified his birthplace as Kenya while trying to promote the then-Harvard Law grad as an author in 1991.

WTF? This is presented as a possible reason Birtherism exists? Has anyone ever seen a single Birther cite this internal document over the past years?

Actually, if you take a gander at the article it's trash all around -- they basically link to the Breitbart site and quote a huge wall of text, with little comment, from their nutty write-up.

354 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:10:23pm

re: #353 simoom

A link from Drudge Report generates millions of page views. That's all you need to know.

355 Obdicut  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:10:24pm

re: #352 Ghost of Insanity

I suggest to anyone curious, if he/she is untrained, to go punch a heavy bag a couple of times and see how your wrists feel.

Heh. Yeah. Oh man, the other day I was at the gym at my wife's med school, and they had a heavy bad and I gave it a shin-kick, not even that hard, but it was a wicked old bag and all the filling had settled at the bottom so it was like kicking something twice the density of what it should have been. Ow.

I haven't been in an actual fight in about fifteen years, because they're almost all unnecessary. You can avoid almost any fight. Almost. Zimmerman sure could have avoided this one.

356 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:10:31pm

re: #314 Daniel Ballard

The quote I wrote of up thread. "hitting mma style". As I also said if that is wrong so am I.

What is hitting MMA style?

What you see in MMA matches are two highly trained men trying to hurt one another. Neither Trayvon nor Zimmerman would be that well trained.

357 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:11:44pm

re: #333 Daniel Ballard

One last reply on this.

Understanding why.. what he did is not the same as saying it was justified.

If I were armed, and on the ground getting my ass kicked, I might pull my gun in order to get him to stop kicking my ass. I would not just lie there and let myself get beaten. I would try to prevent the person kicking my ass from getting my gun.

I wouldn't pull the trigger unless I had some actual reason to fear for my life. I would not pull the gun out and shoot the guy just because he was kicking my ass.

358 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:11:51pm

re: #345 Charles Johnson

I keep coming back to these facts:

Trayvon Martin was not doing anything illegal. He had a perfect right to be walking home in this neighborhood.

George Zimmerman was out driving around looking for trouble, and WRONGLY identified Martin as a possible criminal, then followed him and got out of his car to confront him -- with a gun.

This is why I have a very hard time picturing Zimmerman as someone who was legitimately defending himself. He initiated the confrontation, beyond any doubt. If Zimmerman hadn't been there, playing vigilante, Trayvon Martin would be alive.

Z initiating the situation doesn't mean that from that moment on he surrendered any right to defense from anything TM might have done, including disproportional measures. So there are scenarios where Z's defense could be legitimate (which does not absolve him from stalking and its consequences even in the "best" scenario, of course). Personally, I'll be waiting for the trial.

359 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:11:58pm

re: #325 jamesfirecat

He wasn't part of any neighborhood watch group he was just going around being a vigiliante.

I've heard conflicting stories about that.

360 SpaceJesus  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:12:00pm

re: #348 palomino

I was thinking about making a giant list of all the hate comments, but the page itself does that just fine.

361 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:12:50pm

Hey all!

Took Brat Puppy for a play-date today. He got good and worn-out!

How was your day?

362 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:13:19pm

re: #353 simoom

Anyone ever get the feeling that Jake Tapper makes ABC's political team follow Drudge or something?... because of the major networks, they're the only ones who so consistently seem to bite when the RW blogosphere comes up with whatever idiocy and then Drudge chums the waters:

[Embedded content] ^_ From the article:

WTF? This is presented as a possible reason Birtherism exists? Has anyone ever seen a single Birther cite this internal document over the past years?

Actually, if you take a gander at the article it's trash all around -- they basically link to the Breitbart site and quote a huge wall of text, with little comment, from their nutty write-up.

Tapper is a well-known idiot with a history. Check out MMFA on him.

363 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:13:54pm

re: #359 Ghost of Insanity

I've heard conflicting stories about that.

See post 338.

The facts don't bear out him being part of a neighborhood watch group, of if he was part of one, it wasn't a very good one /he wasn't following its rules.

365 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:16:29pm

re: #358 May Day! May Day!

Z initiating the situation doesn't mean that from that moment on he surrendered any right to defense from anything TM might have done, including disproportional measures.

The point is that based on previous standards, he would be obligated to avoid a deadly confrontation - to do what he could "reasonably' be expected to do to avoid such an outcome.

So what he was obligated to do beyond that point is determined by the legal standard.

366 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:17:20pm

re: #355 Obdicut

Heh. Yeah. Oh man, the other day I was at the gym at my wife's med school, and they had a heavy bad and I gave it a shin-kick, not even that hard, but it was a wicked old bag and all the filling had settled at the bottom so it was like kicking something twice the density of what it should have been. Ow.

I haven't been in an actual fight in about fifteen years, because they're almost all unnecessary. You can avoid almost any fight. Almost. Zimmerman sure could have avoided this one.

I have two heavy bags outside on a stand that I stupidly left outside two winters ago and they absorbed a pile of water. The harder I punch, the harder the bags feel.

I threw the bigger one out. It was too painful to kick, let alone punch.

367 palomino  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:18:05pm

re: #358 May Day! May Day!

Z initiating the situation doesn't mean that from that moment on he surrendered any right to defense from anything TM might have done, including disproportional measures. So there are scenarios where Z's defense could be legitimate (which does not absolve him from stalking and its consequences even in the "best" scenario, of course). Personally, I'll be waiting for the trial.

Of course Zim doesn't lose all rights to self-defense. The point is he would never have needed to resort to SYG, or any other self-defense remedy, had he not done something so dangerous and irresponsible as exiting his vehicle with a gun to pursue a non-suspect. He initiated all of this while playing vigilante.

368 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:18:44pm

re: #365 Talking Point Detective

The point is that based on previous standards, he would be obligated to avoid a deadly confrontation - to do what he could "reasonably' be expected to do to avoid such an outcome.

So what he was obligated to do beyond that point is determined by the legal standard.

Not sure what you mean.

369 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:18:56pm

re: #364 Learned Mother of Zion

Why do people do this? WHY?

And there is more than one of these predators.

cement?

(ggt shakes head)

370 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:19:14pm

I have a question and I hope I get answers from most people.

Do you have any martial arts training, and if so in which discipline?

371 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:20:05pm

re: #366 Ghost of Insanity

I have two heavy bags outside on a stand that I stupidly left outside two winters ago and they absorbed a pile of water. The harder I punch, the harder the bags feel.

I threw the bigger one out. It was too painful to kick, let alone punch.

Now imagine somebody injecting that in your butt.

372 Varek Raith  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:20:33pm

re: #370 Ghost of Insanity

I have a question and I hope I get answers from most people.

Do you have any martial arts training, and if so in which discipline?

None.
Except being 6'3" and 215lbs. RAMMING SPEED.
;)

373 Varek Raith  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:21:14pm

re: #371 Learned Mother of Zion

Now imagine somebody injecting that in your butt.

What the...why? It's... Nevermind.

374 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:21:54pm

re: #367 palomino

Of course Zim doesn't lose all rights to self-defense. The point is he would never have needed to resort to SYG, or any other self-defense remedy, had he not done something so dangerous and irresponsible as exiting his vehicle with a gun to pursue a non-suspect. He initiated all of this while playing vigilante.

Nobody doubts he started the whole thing. That's not the point.

375 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:22:00pm

re: #371 Learned Mother of Zion

Now imagine somebody injecting that in your butt.

A doctor that comes to your house?

Would that bring-up some red-flags?

376 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:22:09pm

re: #371 Learned Mother of Zion

Now imagine somebody injecting that in your butt.

Stupid. I blame the anti-science attitudes prevalent in NA.

377 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:23:32pm

re: #372 Varek Raith

None.
Except being 6'3" and 215lbs. RAMMING SPEED.
;)

I was 180 during Hapkido training. I'm now 225.
I could be a hippopotamus.

378 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:23:34pm

re: #290 Daniel Ballard

How much injury would you volunteer to sustain while on your back before you escalated your force?

RWC, if everyone subscribed to your justification, and if 59% of them carried a gun, we'd have dead people all around . Oh yeah, we do. It's a horrible situation for an evolved people.

379 jaunte  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:23:36pm

Having an eyewitness who couldn't see the fight very well describing someone "hitting mma style" should probably be translated to "ineffectively flailing in panic."

380 palomino  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:24:07pm

re: #360 SpaceJesus

I was thinking about making a giant list of all the hate comments, but the page itself does that just fine.

A lot of the comments sound like parody...sadly I don't think they are. It's quite clear from these comments that some whites on the far right are really terrified of the prospect of a majority-minority country. Hence the vitriol on the comments, and the despicable mindless villification of Obama over the last 4 years. He represents the America that they know is coming, and they can't stand the thought of it.

Example:

I am not worried about being overrun by the bIacks because after 300 years of being in this country, the percentage of the population has only increased by 0.2%. At this rate, they will only be 13.1% in 2312. Hispanics are another thing, but I would like to see what the numbers show in 18 years as they tend to kiII each other off.

381 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:24:46pm
382 freetoken  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:24:48pm

re: #379 jaunte

Even in the best of circumstances "eyewitness" accounts are fraught with problems. Given less than ideal circumstances such accounts may very well do more harm than good in trying to render proper justice.

383 gwangung  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:25:49pm

re: #374 May Day! May Day!

Nobody doubts he started the whole thing. That's not the point.

I think the point is that Zimmerman acted without full knowledge and apparently made little attempt to get that knowledge. That was irresponsible and reckless. Any action subsequent to that HAS to take that initial action into account.

384 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:25:50pm

re: #326 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

naturally the kid being stalked is the aggressor

naturally!

A minority in a hoodie. Oh and the pot, THE POT. All his fault.

Empathy, lost.

385 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:26:00pm

re: #368 May Day! May Day!

Not sure what you mean.

You stated that his right to a self-defense would depend on what Martin did (paraphrasing).

Under previous standards, his right to defend himself would be based on what he did, not what Martin did. SYG eliminates his responsibility - and his right to a defend himself is more or less contingent on what Martin did, only.

386 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:27:55pm

re: #374 May Day! May Day!

Nobody doubts he started the whole thing. That's not the point.

I don't agree that isn't the point. I think it is the point.

But the reality is that with SYG, whether or not he started it may well be moot.

That is why SYG is fucked up. And IMO, that is the point.

387 palomino  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:28:13pm

re: #374 May Day! May Day!

Nobody doubts he started the whole thing. That's not the point.

Then what is your point? It's already pretty clear that SYG law is absurd and flawed and that Zim might be able to take advantage of that at trial.

388 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:28:33pm

re: #387 palomino

Then what is your point? It's already pretty clear that SYG law is absurd and flawed and that Zim might be able to take advantage of that at trial.

And that's the point.

389 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:28:58pm

It would be rather difficult to support SYG if the prosecution can establish that Zimmerman was stalking Trayvon--no?

390 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:28:59pm

re: #345 Charles Johnson

I keep coming back to these facts:

Trayvon Martin was not doing anything illegal. He had a perfect right to be walking home in this neighborhood.

George Zimmerman was out driving around looking for trouble, and WRONGLY identified Martin as a possible criminal, then followed him and got out of his car to confront him -- with a gun.

This is why I have a very hard time picturing Zimmerman as someone who was legitimately defending himself. He initiated the confrontation, beyond any doubt. If Zimmerman hadn't been there, playing vigilante, Trayvon Martin would be alive.

God damn that photo of ice tea over his tarped body. God Damn!

391 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:29:08pm

re: #369 ggt

don't forget the flat tire sealant.

392 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:29:38pm

re: #391 live life like you have one

don't forget the flat tire sealant.

someone thought real hard to be this stupid.

393 freetoken  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:30:23pm

Human's ability to accurately observe and then remember events around them has been shown to be rather poor.

You can test this yourself, on yourself. Think about how accurately you can describe your surroundings. Say you've always walked a certain 100 yard distance, say between where you park your car at work and where you physical sit. Can you really recall all that is along that path? Accurately? (Color, size, sound, etc.?)


We tend to remember only one or two things, and it is not uncommon for these few items then to get magnified wrt to their environment.

Everyday when I go for my walk, even when walking over the same path I have gone a hundred times before, I notice something new. Plants that have been there all the time but which I just had not seen. Etc.

We have very poor memories, but even worse, our real time selection of sensory inputs are easily distracted.

394 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:30:42pm

re: #389 ggt

It would be rather difficult to support SYG if the prosecution can establish that Zimmerman was stalking Trayvon--no?

I don't think there's anything in the law that would make a SYG defense invalid because he was stalking Martin.

395 Targetpractice  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:30:55pm

re: #389 ggt

It would be rather difficult to support SYG if the prosecution can establish that Zimmerman was stalking Trayvon--no?

Nope, as the prosecution can't disprove Zimmerman's version of how the fight began, it boils down to whether or not GZ could "reasonably believe" that he was in danger of grave injury or death. From everything we've seen so far, it's looking very likely that the defense could convince a judge that Zimmerman had every reason to believe Martin meant to keep beating him until he was incapacitated or dead.

396 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:31:55pm

re: #370 Ghost of Insanity

I have a question and I hope I get answers from most people.

Do you have any martial arts training, and if so in which discipline?

Only what I see on the tv. That counts!!

397 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:32:35pm

re: #392 ggt

definitely displaced priorities. seems there should be some form of "you got what you deserved" when you allow someone to inject concrete & tire sealant into your body.

398 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:33:31pm

re: #390 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

God damn that photo of ice tea over his tarped body. God Damn!

Since when do they release so much crime scene and evidence photographs like this before a trial?

399 Targetpractice  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:33:58pm

re: #398 Gus

Since when do they release so much crime scene and evidence photographs like this before a trial?

When the media wants to keep the hype going.

400 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:34:04pm

re: #393 freetoken

Human's ability to accurately observe and then remember events around them has been shown to be rather poor.

You can test this yourself, on yourself. Think about how accurately you can describe your surroundings. Say you've always walked a certain 100 yard distance, say between where you park your car at work and where you physical sit. Can you really recall all that is along that path? Accurately? (Color, size, sound, etc.?)

We tend to remember only one or two things, and it is not uncommon for these few items then to get magnified wrt to their environment.

Everyday when I go for my walk, even when walking over the same path I have gone a hundred times before, I notice something new. Plants that have been there all the time but which I just had not seen. Etc.

We have very poor memories, but even worse, our real time selection of sensory inputs are easily distracted.

I have to a... squirrel!

401 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:34:07pm

re: #383 gwangung

I think the point is that Zimmerman acted without full knowledge and apparently made little attempt to get that knowledge. That was irresponsible and reckless. Any action subsequent to that HAS to take that initial action into account.

I think his botched attempt to get knowledge is what started the whole mess. He should have minded his own business.

What followed does not cancel out his previous actions, but neither it is correct to say that in no circumstances could his action during the fight be legitimate. That would depend solely on the immediate actions of both parties to the altercation. So the question of whether the shot was legitimate can be judged only in the immediate context of the situation, namely, was there a danger to his life or not. Not on whether one party stalked the other etc.

402 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:34:36pm

re: #399 Targetpractice

When the media wants to keep the hype going.

Seems unusual. Never seen this before in my life.

403 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:35:13pm

re: #397 live life like you have one

definitely displaced priorities. seems there should be some form of "you got what you deserved" when you allow someone to inject concrete & tire sealant into your body.

But these are poor marginalized, discriminated-against exotic dancers whose health insurance won't pay for professionally-required buttocks enhancements!//

404 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:36:03pm

re: #402 Gus

Seems unusual. Never seen this before in my life.

ratings, ad revenue . . . .

405 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:36:07pm

re: #385 Talking Point Detective

You stated that his right to a self-defense would depend on what Martin did (paraphrasing).

Under previous standards, his right to defend himself would be based on what he did, not what Martin did. SYG eliminates his responsibility - and his right to a defense is more or less contingent on what Martin did, only.

I don't know what you mean by previous standards. I'm talking about common sense. SYG seems to be incompatible with it, so I'm not necessarily taking it into account either way.

406 Targetpractice  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:36:35pm

re: #402 Gus

Seems unusual. Never seen this before in my life.

You must not watch the news much. There's at least one overly-hyped "crime of century" every other week. Before this, the most recent one I vividly remember was the Casey Anthony trial. And this one's taking much of the same course, from media overhype, to prosecutors getting in over their heads, to a very likely acquittal (or, in GZ's case, release at pre-trial).

407 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:36:50pm

Trying to get you guys to participate in an impromptu survey is worse than herding cats.

408 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:37:27pm

re: #386 Talking Point Detective

I don't agree that isn't the point. I think it is the point.

But it's not. One can start a stupid situation and still legitimately defend oneself.

409 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:38:01pm

re: #387 palomino

Then what is your point?

I explained it.

410 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:38:13pm

re: #405 May Day! May Day!

I don't know what you mean by previous standards. I'm talking about common sense. SYG seems to be incompatible with it, so I'm not necessarily taking it into account either way.

Previous standards means the standard that someone is obligated to do everything "reasonable" to avoid the use of deadly force.

That was the standard prior to SYG laws. You are describing the legal parameters of self-defense as if they aren't contingent on underlying standards - but they are.

411 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:38:27pm

re: #403 Learned Mother of Zion

i get that. but concrete & tire sealant? seems like having that concoction in the vicinity of a syringe and 'her' buttocks might set off an alarm. it's stupid AND sad.

412 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:38:28pm

re: #406 Targetpractice

You must not watch the news much. There's at least one overly-hyped "crime of century" every other week. Before this, the most recent one I vividly remember was the Casey Anthony trial. And this one's taking much of the same course, from media overhype, to prosecutors getting in over their heads, to a very likely acquittal (or, in GZ's case, release at pre-trial).

I don't. Typically I avoid crime programming like those on 20/20 or Dateline like the plague. Completely ignored the Casey Anthony trial.

413 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:38:58pm

re: #408 May Day! May Day!

But it's not. One can start a stupid situation and still legitimately defend oneself.

That depends on the legal standard.

Previously, what Zimmerman did would not be a legitimate self defense.

414 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:40:23pm

re: #411 live life like you have one

i get that. but concrete & tire sealant? seems like having that concoction in the vicinity of a syringe and 'her' buttocks might set off an alarm. it's stupid AND sad.

i'm not sure the "patient" knew what was being injected --???

just the idea of having a medical procedure done --outside of a clinical setting, cash-deal --

REALLY?

Maybe if you are used to getting drugs that way you wouldn't think twice about it???

415 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:40:44pm

re: #404 ggt

ratings, ad revenue . . .

NEW$

416 Targetpractice  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:42:13pm

re: #412 Gus

I don't. Typically I avoid crime programming like those on 20/20 or Dateline like the plague. Completely ignored the Casey Anthony trial.

Yeah, I'm mostly tuned out that clusterfuck, like I suspect a lot of people did when they weren't discussing it around the watercooler. Thing is, I'm sure the same was true for the "big crime drama" prior to it as well. They sucker us in with the sob story, they give us scant details because it's always "unfolding," and the experts are quick to tell us what we want to believe. It's only after the trial, when we get an idea of what the real picture was, that we find out that the media had been stringing our asses along for ratings.

417 Kronocide  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:42:30pm

The energy source from Birthers needs to be bottled. I think that's the key to wean ourselves off fossil fuels.

418 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:42:33pm

Feathered dinosaurs, evolutionary leap, or just a fad?

419 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:43:20pm

re: #417 Kronocide

The energy source from Birthers needs to be bottled. I think that's the key to wean ourselves off fossil fuels.

Most of it is Methane, as I understand it. Waste Management and others are working hard on a way to market it.

420 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:43:25pm

re: #417 Kronocide

The energy source from Birthers needs to be bottled. I think that's the key to wean ourselves off fossil fuels.

Clearly we need to get them all to stand in front of some windmills so that their never ending blather will produce enough motion in the air to make the blades spin.

421 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:45:09pm

re: #410 Talking Point Detective

Previous standards means the standard that someone is obligated to do everything "reasonable" to avoid the use of deadly force.

That was the standard prior to SYG laws. You are describing the legal parameters of self-defense as if they aren't contingent on underlying standards - but they are.

I'm replying with a philosophical point to a philosophical point (legitimacy of defense, etc.). I don't really care to discuss SYG and I'm leaving it to the trial lawyers. I think none of us are trained enough for a proper SYG analysis of this case, given various contradictory statements and rulings.

422 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:46:09pm

re: #416 Targetpractice

Yeah, I'm mostly tuned out that clusterfuck, like I suspect a lot of people did when they weren't discussing it around the watercooler. Thing is, I'm sure the same was true for the "big crime drama" prior to it as well. They sucker us in with the sob story, they give us scant details because it's always "unfolding," and the experts are quick to tell us what we want to believe. It's only after the trial, when we get an idea of what the real picture was, that we find out that the media had been stringing our asses along for ratings.

The local news will do the same thing. Say there's a shooting in the morning someone is killed. Then, 12 hours later they'll report it on the 6 o'clock news as "we now bring you a DEVELOPING STORY." But it's not a developing story at that point since the crime took place hours ago. They do this with everything. Fire in the morning? "Developing story" at 6 PM.

423 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:47:00pm

How's this?

The 1 Percent Speaks

A former Bain Capital man and Romney supporter says income inequality shows our economy is working.

My guest today Ed Conard was a partner with Mitt Romney at Bain Capital -a partner and managing director at the private equity firm Romney helped start. Made – ballpark – hundreds of millions of dollars. Retired at 51, rich.

Now Ed Conard is a major Romney supporter, and he’s thinking and talking about the US economy. About growth and incentives and inequality. Inequality is not the problem, he says. Inequality is the answer. A sign of the riches – the incentives – that drive the economy forward.

424 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:47:56pm

re: #414 ggt

buttock enhancement is not a priority in my line of work. available approaches to injecting concrete & sealant are not known to me so i can't consider what might set off some alarms in this patient population. i agree the 'back room' mentality of acquiring services might compromise scrutiny of methods.

like i said: it's stupid and SAD. i am sure this woman is disfigured for life and clearly the 'practitioner' should be prosecuted.

425 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:48:21pm

re: #421 May Day! May Day!

I'm replying with a philosophical point to a philosophical point (legitimacy of defense, etc.). I don't really care to discuss SYG and I'm leaving it to the trial lawyers. I think none of us are trained enough for a proper SYG analysis of this case, given various contradictory statements and rulings.

Well - I can debate it philosophically also, because the legal standard is based on a philosophical perspective.

I think that the right to self defense should rightly be contingent on what you do to put yourself in a situation.

If I arm myself, and follow someone, and put myself in a situation with that person where a confrontation is likely to take place, I don't think that I have a philosophical right to defend myself by shooting them. It doesn't really matter what I might find threatening in their subsequent actions. My actions have consequences that I can't pin on someone else's actions.

And I think that the legal standard should reflect that philosophical perspective.

426 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:49:55pm

re: #424 live life like you have one

buttock enhancement is not a priority in my line of work. available approaches to injecting concrete & sealant are not known to me so i can't consider what might set off some alarms in this patient population. i agree the 'back room' mentality of acquiring services might compromise scrutiny of methods.

like i said: it's stupid and SAD. i am sure this woman is disfigured for life and clearly the 'practitioner' should be prosecuted.

Stupidly
Assured
Death

427 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:52:47pm

re: #423 ggt

How's this?

Proving once again that one can be rich and a complete idiot. People like that are just as bad as hard corps communists.

Looks a little worn out for 51.

Image: 14xkkzk.jpg

428 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:52:52pm

re: #425 Talking Point Detective

If I arm myself, and follow someone, and put myself in a situation with that person where a confrontation is likely to take place, I don't think that I have a philosophical right to defend myself by shooting them.

If that person not merely confronts you - which can take various forms - but presents danger to your life, then it is very possible that you do have such a right (depending on certain circumstances).

429 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:53:31pm

re: #424 live life like you have one

buttock enhancement is not a priority in my line of work. available approaches to injecting concrete & sealant are not known to me so i can't consider what might set off some alarms in this patient population. i agree the 'back room' mentality of acquiring services might compromise scrutiny of methods.

like i said: it's stupid and SAD. i am sure this woman is disfigured for life and clearly the 'practitioner' should be prosecuted.

That photo is an obvious photoshop. You've been had!/

430 Targetpractice  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:53:51pm

re: #422 Gus

The local news will do the same thing. Say there's a shooting in the morning someone is killed. Then, 12 hours later they'll report it on the 6 o'clock news as "we now bring you a DEVELOPING STORY." But it's not a developing story at that point since the crime took place hours ago. They do this with everything. Fire in the morning? "Developing story" at 6 PM.

Nah, at 6AM it's "Breaking Story."

12PM, it's "Developing Story," with either official responses or just grabbing a bunch of the locals to tell what they were doing when it all went down.

5PM, it's "On-Going Story," now with the experts wheeled in to tell us how it could have happened and how good/bad it is for the rest of us.

6PM, it's time for a recap of the 5PM broadcast, only now with some editorial commentary from the reporters.

And at 10/11PM, it's "Recap" time, when they go through bite-sized chunks of the day's progress on the story, with promises of "new developments" the following morning.

431 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:54:06pm

I enjoyed listening to this interview today. I had wondered but never put into words what he is talking about below --off-white people. How is that going to work?

Non-White Birth Rate May Inspire Policy Changes

CONAN: Do you think, as we move - we have seen ourselves, I think it's fair to say, as a white-dominated country that's not necessarily going to change any time soon.

SUAREZ-OROZCO: Well, this is a complex story. The - half of all Hispanics - if you think in terms of, you know, the big news here, right, the Hispanic-origin population continues to grow at a very, very fast rate. Half of all Hispanics now consider themselves white. So then we need to talk about an off-white phenomenon. How do we think about the fact that 100 years ago, near where I am now, here in the Lower East Side of New York, huge numbers of Italians and Irish and eastern Europeans came to our country, and they weren't - certainly were not viewed as white. So this is a story that has been with us for 100, 150 years. How do we remake the social fabric of the nation as we absorb new cohorts of Americans by choice?"

432 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:55:22pm

re: #428 May Day! May Day!

If that person not merely confronts you - which can take various forms - but presents danger to your life, then it is very possible that you do have such a right (depending on certain circumstances).

I added to my above comment. I'll repeat in case you missed it.

I don't think that I can pin the consequences of my actions on someone else's actions.

I put myself in that situation. I could have done otherwise. I don't think that I can legitimately hold someone else responsible for threatening me if I followed them with a loaded gun for no legitimate reason, and in fact, in direct contradiction to well established societal standards of behavior.

433 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:55:39pm

re: #431 ggt

I enjoyed listening to this interview today. I had wondered but never put into words what he is talking about below --off-white people. How is that going to work?

Suarez-Orozco is correct. It is a complex story.

434 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:55:59pm

re: #427 Gus

Proving once again that one can be rich and a complete idiot. People like that are just as bad as hard corps communists.

Looks a little worn out for 51.

Image: 14xkkzk.jpg

I'd be more open to pondering the economics if the 1% on Wall Street were playing with their own money and the 99% weren't the ones sacrificing to cover their losses.

435 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:56:01pm

re: #429 May Day! May Day!

correction, LMoZ was had. quite entertaining none the less. like that krokodil stuff. anytime gasoline , bleach, concrete, sealant etc is injected into human beings how can one expect a positive outcome?

436 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:56:48pm

re: #433 Gus

Suarez-Orozco is correct. It is a complex story.

No matter how it's defined, I'm still white -- well, maybe a little pink.

I think most people who are labeled white, tho, are actually off-white.

437 palomino  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:57:04pm

re: #409 May Day! May Day!

I explained it.

Not particularly well.

438 simoom  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:57:21pm
439 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:58:17pm

re: #431 ggt

I enjoyed listening to this interview today. I had wondered but never put into words what he is talking about below --off-white people. How is that going to work?

I have always wondered:

Are immigrants from Spain considered Hispanic or just White European? If we consider Hispanic as a linguistic group, not a race, then European Spaniards Hispanic?

And now I'm reminded of the story of this white guy whose parents were from Capetown, who liked to check "African-American" on various forms that he filled out.

440 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:59:16pm

Is outlawing the development of air bladders the only way of stopping the recent rash of ichthyes growing legs and moving to land?

441 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:59:51pm

re: #439 Learned Mother of Zion

I have always wondered:

Are immigrants from Spain considered Hispanic or just White European? If we consider Hispanic as a linguistic group, not a race, then European Spaniards Hispanic?

And now I'm reminded of the story of this white guy whose parents were from Capetown, who liked to check "African-American" on various forms that he filled out.

The more European the higher the social status in the South American caste system of old.

So, European counts as White even if you have Olive Mediterranean skin or "Andalusian" ancestors.

442 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:00:16pm

re: #440 Ghost of Insanity

Is outlawing the development of air bladders the only way of stopping the recent rash of ichthyes growing legs and moving to land?

obviously!

(what did he say?)

443 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:00:29pm

re: #432 Talking Point Detective

I added to my above comment. I'll repeat in case you missed it.

I don't think that I can pin the consequences of my actions on someone else's actions.

I put myself in that situation. I could have done otherwise. I don't think that I can legitimately hold someone else responsible for threatening me if I followed them with a loaded gun for no legitimate reason, and in fact, in direct contradiction to well established societal standards of behavior.

Once again, you're describing a generic confrontation. I'm describing a danger to your life, like being beaten on your head with a brick, for example. It doesn't matter in such a situation that you got yourself into it through your stupidity. Given the attacker's disproportionate reaction that is of immediate danger to you, you may be justified in shooting him. Nobody forced the attacker to use disproportionate measures - esp. if they didn't even know that you had a gun.

444 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:00:57pm

re: #436 ggt

No matter how it's defined, I'm stil white -- well, maybe a little pink.

North America's demographics has always been rather dynamic since the European invaders settled here. ;)

445 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:00:58pm

re: #437 palomino

Not particularly well.

Well enough.

446 Renaissance_Man  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:02:14pm

re: #345 Charles Johnson

This is why I have a very hard time picturing Zimmerman as someone who was legitimately defending himself. He initiated the confrontation, beyond any doubt. If Zimmerman hadn't been there, playing vigilante, Trayvon Martin would be alive.

I understand it becomes easier to picture once you start from the assumption that all lefties and/or everyone on LGF is wrong.

447 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:03:23pm

re: #431 ggt

I enjoyed listening to this interview today. I had wondered but never put into words what he is talking about below --off-white people. How is that going to work?

Off white people? Oh great I'm gonna have to break out my ethnic color swatches again...

448 Daniel Ballard  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:04:02pm

re: #272 Obdicut

The almost ironic thing is that Zimmerman may have been authentically scared because he realized how freaked out he'd made Trayvon, that he'd terrified him.

Understanding is clarity. It's quite separate from justification.

449 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:06:09pm

re: #447 jamesfirecat

Off white people? Oh great I'm gonna have to break out my ethnic color swatches again...

I always wondered why there isn't a category for freckled, blotchy, spotted etc.

Like in Dogs and Horses.

450 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:06:25pm

re: #443 May Day! May Day!

Once again, you're describing a generic confrontation. I'm describing a danger to your life, like being beaten on your head with a brick, for example. It doesn't matter in such a situation that you got yourself into it through your stupidity. Given the attacker's disproportionate reaction that is of immediate danger to you, you may be justified in shooting him. Nobody forced the attacker to use disproportionate measures - esp. if they didn't even know that you had a gun.

OK - we're repeating ourselves, but I don't agree. I'll try one more time then give up.

I'm not talking about a generic situation.

I arm myself and follow someone, in violation of standard rules of behavior, and put myself in a situation where a confrontation is likely to take place - then my right to self-defense is limited.

A disproportionate reaction to my actions by someone else does not change my actions that set up the situation in the first place. I have invalidated my right to self defense by virtue of my own actions.

This is not some reach. This is the philosophical standard that was in place for years - as reflected by the legal standard.

The expectation was that I had an obligation to avoid a deadly outcome. If I failed to meet that expectation, my right to self-defense was forfeited. It would not matter if the actions of the other person was disproportionate.

451 palomino  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:07:13pm

re: #431 ggt

I enjoyed listening to this interview today. I had wondered but never put into words what he is talking about below --off-white people. How is that going to work?

This relates to what motivates the repugnant expressions of racism and hate found in the Fox comments sections.

There is a perception among conservative whites that the federal govt. essentially takes huge amounts of hard earned white people money and gives it to lazy minorities in the form of welfare. Thus some whites are filled with resentment, as they are under the mistaken impression that our financial woes are the result of minorities "stealing" from real Americans. And these whites are also susceptible to the misconception that welfare spending has skyrocketed because Obama wants to assist idle, shiftless minorities to the detriment of the whites he allegedly hates. It's all bullshit of course, but over decades it has penetrated the conservative discourse to the extent that it's now an article of faith therein.

452 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:07:21pm

re: #439 Learned Mother of Zion

I have always wondered:

Are immigrants from Spain considered Hispanic or just White European? If we consider Hispanic as a linguistic group, not a race, then European Spaniards Hispanic?

And now I'm reminded of the story of this white guy whose parents were from Capetown, who liked to check "African-American" on various forms that he filled out.

This is from the 2010 form:

Is this person of Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish origin?

[ ] No, not of Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish origin
[ ] Yes, Mexican, Mexican Am., Chicano
[ ] Yes, Puerto Rican
[ ] Yes, Cuban
[ ] Yes, another Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish origin — Print origin, for example, Argentinean, Colombian, Dominican, Nicaraguan, Salvadoran, Spaniard, and so on.

I checked off the last one.

453 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:10:41pm

re: #450 Talking Point Detective

OK - we're repeating ourselves, but I don't agree. I'll try one more time then give up.

I'm not talking about a generic situation.

I arm myself and follow someone, in violation of standard rules of behavior, and put myself in a situation where a confrontation is likely to take place - then my right to self-defense is limited.

A disproportionate reaction to my actions by someone else does not change my actions that set up the situation in the first place. I have invalidated my right to self defense by virtue of my own actions.

This is not some reach. This is the philosophical standard that was in place for years - as reflected by the legal standard.

The expectation was that I had an obligation to avoid a deadly outcome. If I failed to meet that expectation, my right to self-defense was forfeited. It would not matter if the actions of the other person was disproportionate.

I understand what you're trying to say, I just disagree with terms. You don't forfeit your right to self-defense. In the situation I describe you're justified in shooting the attacker. It's just, then you have to answer for causing the whole mess.

Forfeiting your right to self-defense means you have to lie still while you're being killed, and that's just nonsense.

454 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:10:47pm

re: #452 Gus

This is from the 2010 form:

I checked off the last one.

Brazilians speak Portuguese, do they count as semi-Hispanic?

455 palomino  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:10:49pm

re: #445 May Day! May Day!

Well enough.

Nahh, not really.

456 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:11:05pm

re: #439 Learned Mother of Zion

I have always wondered:

Are immigrants from Spain considered Hispanic or just White European? If we consider Hispanic as a linguistic group, not a race, then European Spaniards Hispanic?

And now I'm reminded of the story of this white guy whose parents were from Capetown, who liked to check "African-American" on various forms that he filled out.

Old boss of mine. Freaking successful Mexican, but he claimed being Basque. Whatever. I saw it as possible, but denial.

457 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:11:21pm

I'm starting a petition to prevent certain groups of archaea from banding together and forming stromatolites, which can only be considered a slippery slope to multicellular organisms.

458 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:11:37pm

re: #455 palomino

Nahh, not really.

Way.

459 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:12:22pm

re: #454 Learned Mother of Zion

Brazilians speak Portuguese, do they count as semi-Hispanic?

Ha! Don't know.

460 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:12:38pm

Just visited my local egg pusher and runner duck owner. Damn those things are cute but I think they're delicious enough for me to kill. I think I might build a duck run next year.

461 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:12:41pm

re: #448 Daniel Ballard

in a 'perfect' world mr zimmerman would have either stayed in his car or approached t.martin in a non threatening manner i.e. 'can i help you find an address? etc. in this same world mr martin (who was 11 years younger) might have tried politeness i.e no, sir i live in that house over there. just returning from the store etc'. you know that 'elder thing' my pop's told me about.
but...... zimmerman bit off more than he could chew, and t.martin brought that to mr z's full attention. i can't find any justification for an unarmed minor's death by gunshot. it's a tragedy for the martin's and yes, a tragedy for the z family. if people weren't so convinced of their own invincibility /right to do what ever they want perhaps we would pause and try a bit of civility every now an then.
there are laws, and there are morals and so often in human interactions they have little or nothing to do with each other.

462 jaunte  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:13:26pm

re: #457 Ghost of Insanity

You'll never get them to stand up for themselves. Totally spineless.

463 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:14:03pm

re: #457 Ghost of Insanity

dude somethin's kickin' in at your house

464 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:14:15pm

re: #461 live life like you have one

in a 'perfect' world mr zimmerman would have either stayed in his car or approached t.martin in a non threatening manner i.e. 'can i help you find an address? etc. in this same world mr martin (who was 11 years younger) might have tried politeness i.e no, sir i live in that house over there. just returning from the store etc'. you know that 'elder thing' my pop's told me about.
but... zimmerman bit off more than he could chew, and t.martin brought that to mr z's full attention. i can't find any justification for an unarmed minor's death by gunshot. it's a tragedy for the martin's and yes, a tragedy for the z family. if people weren't so convinced of their own invincibility /right to do what ever they want perhaps we would pause and try a bit of civility every now an then.
there are laws, and there are morals and so often in human interactions they have little or nothing to do with each other.

I agree with most of what you say though honestly I doubt it would have made a difference how polite or impolite Trayvon was.

That said, can you show me where on this doll the shift key bit you?

465 palomino  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:14:23pm

re: #453 May Day! May Day!

I understand what you're trying to say, I just disagree with terms. You don't forfeit your right to self-defense. In the situation I describe you're justified in shooting the attacker. It's just, then you have to answer for causing the whole mess.

Forfeiting your right to self-defense means you have to lie still while you're being killed, and that's just nonsense.

That's precisely the problem. In FL, and many other states, you don't have to answer for causing the whole mess. Zimmerman was a free man for over a month after the shooting, and would still be free and unindicted had there not been a long overdue media firestorm.

466 palomino  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:14:42pm

re: #458 May Day! May Day!

Way.

No!

467 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:14:52pm

re: #454 Learned Mother of Zion

Brazilians speak Portuguese, do they count as semi-Hispanic?

There's this from Wiki:

As employed by the Census Bureau, Hispanic or Latino does not include Brazilian Americans, and specifically refers to "Spanish culture or origin"; Brazilian Americans appear as a separate ancestry group. The 28 Hispanic or Latino American groups in the Census Bureau's reports are the following: Mexican, Puerto Rican, Cuban, Dominican Republic; Central American: Costa Rican, Guatemalan, Honduran, Nicaraguan, Panamanian, Salvadoran, Other Central American; South American: Argentinian, Bolivian, Chilean, Colombian, Ecuadorian, Paraguayan, Peruvian, Uruguayan, Venezuelan, Other South American; Other Hispanic or Latino: Spaniard, Spanish, Spanish American, All other Hispanic.

468 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:15:54pm

re: #466 palomino

No!

Да!

469 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:16:12pm

re: #464 jamesfirecat

i have no time for caps (capitals). unless the situation demands it.

i don't think zimmerman is a frothing racist. he suffers from the psychosis many gun owners suffer from. the invincibility disorder.

470 Targetpractice  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:16:13pm

*sigh* Walk away for five minutes and the cat lays claim to my desk chair. And doesn't even offer me a "thank you" for warming it up for him.

471 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:16:43pm

re: #465 palomino

That's precisely the problem. In FL, and many other states, you don't have to answer for causing the whole mess. Zimmerman was a free man for over a month after the shooting, and would still be free and unindicted had there not been a long overdue media firestorm.

That's a separate matter from what we're discussing.

472 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:17:24pm

re: #470 Targetpractice

*sigh* Walk away for five minutes and the cat lays claim to my desk chair. And doesn't even offer me a "thank you" for warming it up for him.

Lesson?

473 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:17:37pm

I farted and killed my spider plant.

474 Mich-again  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:17:48pm

re: #451 palomino

There is a perception among conservative whites that the federal govt. essentially takes huge amounts of hard earned white people money and gives it to lazy minorities in the form of welfare. Thus some whites are filled with resentment, as they are under the mistaken impression that our financial woes are the result of minorities "stealing" from real Americans.

Gee I wonder how the Fox News audience ever got that impression?

475 Targetpractice  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:18:24pm

re: #472 May Day! May Day!

Lesson?

I need a bigger chair so that we can share?

476 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:18:49pm

re: #474 Mich-again

Gee I wonder how the Fox News audience ever got that impression?

Do people watch fox news because they hate minorities, or do they hate minorities because they watch fox news? Truly it is a puzzler...

477 jaunte  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:18:57pm

Republican Legislator Knows ‘in his Heart’ that President Obama is Not an American
"...one never knows what could happen when we hit the Ni-CLANG! event horizon."

478 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:19:07pm

re: #475 Targetpractice

I need a bigger chair so that we can share?

Commienazi.

479 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:19:50pm

re: #477 jaunte

Republican Legislator Knows ‘in his Heart’ that President Obama is Not an American
"...one never knows what could happen when we hit the Ni-CLANG! event horizon."

THE PRESIDENT IS NEAR!

Though sadly Obama missed a real opprotunity to say "excuse me while I whip this out...." before he produced his long firm birth certificate...

480 Mich-again  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:20:16pm

re: #476 jamesfirecat

Do people watch fox news because they hate minorities, or do they hate minorities because they watch fox news? Truly it is a puzzler...

Which came first, the band or the drum major?

481 Targetpractice  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:21:08pm

re: #478 May Day! May Day!

Commienazi.

The bourgeois cat has stolen from me for far too long!

//

482 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:21:58pm

re: #481 Targetpractice

The bourgeois cat has stolen from me for far too long!

//

Czat!

483 Targetpractice  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:22:37pm

re: #482 May Day! May Day!

Czat!

Gesundheit.

//

484 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:22:56pm

So no. Brazilians wouldn't be included.

485 jaunte  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:25:06pm

re: #484 Gus

So no. Brazilians wouldn't be included.

Image: greve1609_600.jpg

486 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:26:22pm

I love this video --and I clicked the one from RT tv an watched it.

This guy makes 11 figures a year.

I think he is speaking from the heart.

487 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:27:27pm

re: #476 jamesfirecat

Do people watch fox news because they hate minorities, or do they hate minorities because they watch fox news? Truly it is a puzzler...

If they didn't hate when they started watching, they would after they finished.

Fox News is like a drug. A very bad drug.

488 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:28:09pm

re: #484 Gus

So no. Brazilians wouldn't be included.

Funny, because in common parlance it seems acceptable to put Brazilians in the Hispanic category.

489 Dark_Falcon  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:28:13pm

re: #469 live life like you have one

i have no time for caps (capitals). unless the situation demands it.

i don't think zimmerman is a frothing racist. he suffers from the psychosis many gun owners suffer from. the invincibility disorder.

Better to make the effort, I have found. IT gives your post polish that it needs to be well received. Posts that look sloppy often get scrolled over.

490 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:28:27pm

re: #470 Targetpractice

*sigh* Walk away for five minutes and the cat lays claim to my desk chair. And doesn't even offer me a "thank you" for warming it up for him.

Why should he? You are doing your job well if he sat there --isn't proof of a job well done enough thanks?

And, remember, he could have not sat there and left a hairball instead.

491 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:28:55pm

re: #488 May Day! May Day!

Funny, because in common parlance it seems acceptable to put Brazilians in the Hispanic category.

Portugese is a latin language --so Latino would be the best fit.

492 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:30:12pm

re: #489 Dark_Falcon

th Thanks for the tip. Old habits die hard. I did not think anyone was keeping score.

anyhoo

493 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:30:34pm

re: #469 live life like you have one

i have no time for caps (capitals). unless the situation demands it.

i don't think zimmerman is a frothing racist. he suffers from the psychosis many gun owners suffer from. the invincibility disorder.

Nah, he is a racist.

494 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:30:35pm

re: #491 ggt

Portugese is a latin language --so Latino would be the best fit.

Ah, good point.

495 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:30:45pm

OT, my housemate just made the best burgers evah. He took the little peppers you get, yellow, orange, & light red- no green. Sautéed in butter then cooled down in a bowl in ice. Put into burger & grilled. Omg. I'm so full.

496 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:31:19pm

More here:

The first Brazilian who emigrated to the United States recorded came in the 1960s. Until then, Brazilians were included in a group formed by all South American groups and were not counted separately...

...The 1990 U.S. Census Bureau recorded that there are about 60,000 Brazilians living in the United States. However, this number not is very reliable because Brazilian Americans were counted in the census only when them claimed that were Brazilians in the "Other Hispanic" category—Brazilians are not Hispanic—therefore, already in these years, the number of Brazilians living in the United States must be much higher than that. In fact other sources indicate that there are near 100,000 Brazilians living in the New York area alone. In addition, there are sizable Brazilian communities in Atlanta, Boston, Washington, D.C., Los Angeles, Miami, and Phoenix.

497 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:32:37pm

re: #488 May Day! May Day!

Funny, because in common parlance it seems acceptable to put Brazilians in the Hispanic category.

People clump all South American's into the "Hispanic" category --mostly out of ignorance of history. Most probably don't know that there is a country called: Portugal.

498 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:34:59pm

Technically, Romanians would be Latino as well.

The 5 Romance Languages are:

Latin, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, & Romanian.

(yes? DId I remember all that from High School, I hope I got it right)

499 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:36:08pm

re: #488 May Day! May Day!

Funny, because in common parlance it seems acceptable to put Brazilians in the Hispanic category.

Who's Hispanic?

Q. What about Brazilians, Portuguese, and Filipinos? Are they Hispanic?

A. They are in the eyes of the Census if they say they are, even though these countries do not fit the official OMB definition of “Hispanic” because they are not Spanish speaking. For the most part, people who trace their ancestry to these countries do not self-identify as Hispanic when they fill out their Census forms. Only about 4% of immigrants from Brazil do so, as do just 1% of immigrants from Portugal or the Philippines.3 These patterns reflect a growing recognition and acceptance of the official definition of Hispanics. In the 1980 Census, about one in six Brazilian immigrants and one in eight Portuguese and Filipino immigrants identified as Hispanic. Similar shares did so in the 1990 Census, but by 2000, the shares identifying as Hispanic dropped to levels close to those seen today.

500 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:36:19pm

re: #497 ggt

People clump all South American's into the "Hispanic" category --mostly out of ignorance of history. Most probably don't know that there is a country called: Portugal.

I suspect it may have more to do with traditional near interchangeability of Latino/Hispanic...

501 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:36:30pm

re: #495 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

OT, my housemate just made the best burgers evah. He took the little peppers you get, yellow, orange, & light red- no green. Sautéed in butter then cooled down in a bowl in ice. Put into burger & grilled. Omg. I'm so full.

Have you ever had a buffalo burger?

502 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:37:11pm

re: #498 ggt

Technically, Romanians would be Latino as well.

The 5 Romance Languages are:

Latin, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, & Romanian.

(yes? DId I remember all that from High School, I hope I got it right)

No, Latino is Latin American.

503 Mich-again  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:38:23pm

As for George Zimmerman, he definitely was not a neighborhood watch volunteer, because that would preclude him from carrying a gun and confronting any suspects. And, he wasn't just a guy who happened to be walking around the neighborhood either because he had a long history of the wanna be cop behavior.

Closest thing I can figure is that he was technically an unlicensed private security guard.

A security officer is any individual or business who, for consideration, advertises as or is engaged in the business of furnishing security services described below. The individuals and agencies are required to be licensed:

Acts as a bodyguard
Guards property
Transports prisoners
Guards armored cars
Attempts to prevent theft, misappropriation or concealment of property or other valuables

and this bit of prophetic wisdom..

Security officers and security agencies serve in positions of trust. Untrained and unlicensed persons or businesses, or persons not of good moral character are a threat to the public safety and welfare. The private security industry is regulated to ensure the interests of the public are adequately served and protected.

504 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:39:46pm

re: #493 ggt

Note I qualified his status as 'frothing'. Actually that qualifier is mis leading toward my intended meaning because he could be a buddhist monk but he still killed that kid. This could be bullshit but wasn't there some story re: z's assistance with a homeless black fellow? I know, I know I'll look it up. That of course has no bearing on the fact he ended someone's life. I think above all he is an immature cop wanna be with a gun(see above gun owner psychosis) living in a parallel universe where neighborhood watch duty empowers him to not consider the real outcome of his delusion.

505 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:41:08pm
506 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:41:27pm

re: #503 Mich-again

nice, precise rendering of what i wanted to say.

507 Dark_Falcon  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:41:55pm

re: #503 Mich-again

I do think the fact that Zimmerman clearly ended up looking like he'd been in a fight will tally in his favor. The news that Martin had THC in system? It's too soon to tell on that one, but it's highly unlikely to hurt the defense and may well tally in Zimmerman's favor.

508 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:42:44pm

I've got all kinds of warning lights on the console here.

509 simoom  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:42:44pm
510 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:43:04pm

re: #502 May Day! May Day!

No, Latino is Latin American.

Fortunately the Census form was easy to fill out. :)

511 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:43:29pm

re: #508 Charles Johnson

I've got all kinds of warning lights on the console here.

What happened?

512 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:46:04pm

re: #507 Dark_Falcon

i would hope thc levels in an unarmed, deceased teenager would be inadmissible.

adderall levels, on the other hand, in an assailant involved in a homicide might assist the defense.

513 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:46:15pm

re: #498 ggt

Technically, Romanians would be Latino as well.

The 5 Romance Languages are:

Latin, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, & Romanian.

(yes? DId I remember all that from High School, I hope I got it right)

There's a bunch of 'little' ones, (2) Ladinos, Rhaetian, Occitan.

If you ask the guys down at the barbershop, they're all Mexicans.

514 Dark_Falcon  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:47:29pm

re: #512 live life like you have one

i would hope thc levels in an unarmed, deceased teenager would be inadmissible.

adderall levels, on the other hand, in an assailant involved in a homicide might assist the defense.

They'd be inadmissible if they were vestigial, which they likely are. Only if they were likely to have effected Martin's behavior would they be admissible.

515 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:47:36pm

re: #512 live life like you have one

i would hope thc levels in an unarmed, deceased teenager would be inadmissible.

adderall levels, on the other hand, in an assailant involved in a homicide might assist the defense.

Which is why it's so motherfu**ing stupid that the police drug tested Trayvon but not Zimmerman....

516 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:49:25pm

re: #508 Charles Johnson

I've got all kinds of warning lights on the console here.

You have a dash board too?

517 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:49:46pm

re: #501 Ghost of Insanity

Have you ever had a buffalo burger?

Nope.

518 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:50:10pm

re: #515 jamesfirecat

agreed. maybe that sort of toxicology is a routine portion of post mortum examination? prolly the ball was dropped when the 'press' decided to publish that irrelevant detail. ratings!!

519 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:51:18pm

re: #518 live life like you have one

agreed. maybe that sort of toxicology is a routine portion of post mortum examination? prolly the ball was dropped when the 'press' decided to publish that irrelevant detail. ratings!!

Umm it would be a toxicology report on the guy who did the shooting (Zimmerman) not on the one getting a post mortem (Trayvon) the police didn't check to see if Zimmerman had drugs in his system though they did check with Trayvon.

520 Dark_Falcon  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:52:50pm

re: #519 jamesfirecat

Umm it would be a toxicology report on the guy who did the shooting (Zimmerman) not on the one getting a post mortem (Trayvon) the police didn't check to see if Zimmerman had drugs in his system though they did check with Trayvon.

Checking for THC is routine for all autopsies, as I understand it.

521 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:53:23pm

re: #520 Dark_Falcon

Checking for THC is routine for all autopsies, as I understand it.

Yeah and I don't have a problem with that, my problem is that the police didn't drug test Zimmerman.

522 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:55:05pm

re: #521 jamesfirecat

Yeah and I don't have a problem with that, my problem is that the police didn't drug test Zimmerman.

Zimmerman is an innocent victim! It's the police's job to vindicate him by verifying that the black dude was on drugs!!!

523 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:55:31pm

re: #505 ggt

My Favorite Donna Summer song.

Wouldn't load for me. Last Dance? I played today and cried. That song...

524 gwangung  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:56:56pm

re: #521 jamesfirecat

Yeah and I don't have a problem with that, my problem is that the police didn't drug test Zimmerman.

Yeah, I think there are far more points of agreement than disagreement around here on this...

525 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:57:24pm

re: #523 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Wouldn't load for me. Last Dance? I played today and cried. That song...

Love to Love You, Baby

526 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:58:30pm

re: #519 jamesfirecat

i am sure any request for blood samples from an assailant would have to be court ordered. that police department should be closely scrutinized. beyond whatever happened between those two, (m & z) clearly that department totally soft pedaled on this crime investigation. no doubt because it's just another thug shooting. now that is racist!
the altercation and what happened in the heat of the moment is one thing. collecting facts, investigating and moving on an unarmed teen's homicide should not have taken a month.

527 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:59:04pm

re: #507 Dark_Falcon

I do think the fact that Zimmerman clearly ended up looking like he'd been in a fight will tally in his favor. The news that Martin had THC in system? It's too soon to tell on that one, but it's highly unlikely to hurt the defense and may well tally in Zimmerman's favor.

Hey Dark! You gave me my opening. Pot v. Adderal? And that other legal mind altering drug Zim took. Puleeze. Only old fashioned pot fearers think pot is a problem. And again, we are crucifying the dead guy. Easy peasy.

528 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:59:07pm

re: #498 ggt

Technically, Romanians would be Latino as well.

The 5 Romance Languages are:

Latin, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, & Romanian.

(yes? DId I remember all that from High School, I hope I got it right)

Don't the Roma people have a distinct language which is classified as a "romance" language? Or do they not get counted because they're "Gypsies"?

529 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:00:20pm

re: #525 ggt

Love to Love You, Baby

O o o o o o o o h

530 Dark_Falcon  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:00:25pm

re: #526 live life like you have one

i am sure any request for blood samples from an assailant would have to be court ordered. that police department should be closely scrutinized. beyond whatever happened between those two, (m & z) clearly that department totally soft pedaled on this crime investigation. no doubt because it's just another thug shooting. now that is racist!
the altercation and what happened in the heat of the moment is one thing. collecting facts, investigating and moving on an unarmed teen's homicide should not have taken a month.

Very true. As I've been saying since I learned of the Sanford PD's failures: Whatever else is true in this case, the Sanford PD screwed up by the numbers.

531 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:00:35pm

re: #524 gwangung

Yeah, I think there are far more points of agreement than disagreement around here on this...

There are still those who try to maintain their emotional distance by rationalizing the behavior of the police (without openly admitting they support Zimmerman, for god knows why). That's still disturbing as far as I'm concerned.

532 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:01:29pm

re: #526 live life like you have one

i am sure any request for blood samples from an assailant would have to be court ordered. that police department should be closely scrutinized. beyond whatever happened between those two, (m & z) clearly that department totally soft pedaled on this crime investigation. no doubt because it's just another thug shooting. now that is racist!
the altercation and what happened in the heat of the moment is one thing. collecting facts, investigating and moving on an unarmed teen's homicide should not have taken a month.

I really doubt a blood request from someone who admits to having killed someone else has to be court ordered, as if it did by the time the court could place the order the drugs in the system would doubtlessly be gone already.

533 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:02:12pm

re: #531 darthstar

There are still those who try to maintain their emotional distance by rationalizing the behavior of the police (without openly admitting they support Zimmerman, for god knows why). That's still disturbing as far as I'm concerned.

534 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:02:34pm

re: #531 darthstar

There are still those who try to maintain their emotional distance by rationalizing the behavior of the police (without openly admitting they support Zimmerman, for god knows why). That's still disturbing as far as I'm concerned.

535 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:02:42pm

re: #530 Dark_Falcon

Very true. As I've been saying since I learned of the Sanford PD's failures: Whatever else is true in this case, the Sanford PD screwed up by the numbers.

They didn't 'screw up'...Screwing up is when you try to do the right thing and make a mistake. They intentionally under-investigated this case and took the word of a serial 911 caller in an attempt to sweep this crime under the rug.

536 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:02:56pm

re: #531 darthstar

There are still those who try to maintain their emotional distance by rationalizing the behavior of the police (without openly admitting they support Zimmerman, for god knows why). That's still disturbing as far as I'm concerned.

537 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:03:48pm

Yes. That's how I upding squared.

538 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:03:49pm

re: #528 Learned Mother of Zion

Don't the Roma people have a distinct language which is classified as a "romance" language? Or do they not get counted because they're "Gypsies"?

Per wiki their languages are distinct enough to identify seven of them--gets into an issue of 'lumpers' and 'splitters' again.

Wiki authors also recognize Veneto (Region of Venice) as distinct enough to be a separate language.

539 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:03:56pm

re: #532 jamesfirecat

I really doubt a blood request from someone who admits to having killed someone else has to be court ordered, as if it did by the time the court could place the order the drugs in the system would doubtlessly be gone already.

Due diligence (and common sense CYA protocol) should have caused them to do a blood sample on Zimmerman at the time.

540 Dark_Falcon  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:04:26pm

re: #527 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Hey Dark! You gave me my opening. Pot v. Adderal? And that other legal mind altering drug Zim took. Puleeze. Only old fashioned pot fearers think pot is a problem. And again, we are crucifying the dead guy. Easy peasy.

The thing is that sometimes hallucinogens make a person paranoid, and if THC made Trayvon Martin more hostile than he otherwise would have been, then that is a fact that would need to be considered. But when we talk about this, we're talking about questions of admissibility in which I have little expertise. I'm not a lawyer and I don't know what Florida law permits in this case. The THC might not be admissible at all, unless there was some way Zimmerman knew Martin was high.

541 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:05:04pm

re: #532 jamesfirecat

I really doubt a blood request from someone who admits to having killed someone else has to be court ordered, as if it did by the time the court could place the order the drugs in the system would doubtlessly be gone already.

We have less rights getting pulled over. Really a death by your gun? Cops failed.

542 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:05:57pm

re: #540 Dark_Falcon

The thing is that sometimes hallucinogens make a person paranoid, and if THC made Trayvon Martin more hostile than he otherwise would have been, then that is a fact that would need to be considered. But when we talk about this, we're talking about questions of admissibility in which I have little expertise. I'm not a lawyer and I don't know what Florida law permits in this case. The THC might not be admissible at all, unless there was some way Zimmerman knew Martin was high.

Dark, how many people do you know who act "hostile" after taking weed?

543 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:06:07pm

re: #540 Dark_Falcon

The thing is that sometimes hallucinogens make a person paranoid, and if THC made Trayvon Martin more hostile than he otherwise would have been, then that is a fact that would need to be considered. But when we talk about this, we're talking about questions of admissibility in which I have little expertise. I'm not a lawyer and I don't know what Florida law permits in this case. The THC might not be admissible at all, unless there was some way Zimmerman knew Martin was high.

Uh oh. You're in trouble now!

544 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:07:53pm

re: #540 Dark_Falcon

The thing is that sometimes hallucinogens make a person paranoid, and if THC made Trayvon Martin more hostile than he otherwise would have been, then that is a fact that would need to be considered. But when we talk about this, we're talking about questions of admissibility in which I have little expertise. I'm not a lawyer and I don't know what Florida law permits in this case. The THC might not be admissible at all, unless there was some way Zimmerman knew Martin was high.

Have you ever smoked pot? THC is not a hallucinogen. And anecdotal as it may be, in my extensive experience in the use of both hallucinogens and marijuana, I've never once in over 20 years seen anyone become violent under the influence of either substance...Alcohol, more often than I care to remember. But pot or psychedelics - never.

Also, watching Reefer Madness on YouTube isn't the same as experience.

545 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:07:55pm

re: #532 jamesfirecat

drawing blood is pretty invasive. i am not a lawyer but i would imagine that kind of thing would be fought tooth & nail by a defense attorney and would have to be authorized by the court. forgive my imprecise terminology but i am sure it is part of the 'innocent until proven guilty' safeguards that prevent entrapment etc. in this situation it is conceivable it might inform investigators as to the mental state of mr. Z but in general collecting and interpreting that sort of info in legal situations could be abused by the prosecutor without standards of permission etc.

546 Daniel Ballard  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:09:03pm

re: #507 Dark_Falcon

I do think the fact that Zimmerman clearly ended up looking like he'd been in a fight will tally in his favor. The news that Martin had THC in system? It's too soon to tell on that one, but it's highly unlikely to hurt the defense and may well tally in Zimmerman's favor.

Just as his ill fated following of Trayvon will count against him. As it damn well should.

Reality is funny that way. Certain facts show a picture quite different than what we might think. Kind of like imagining what a radio personality looks like. We already know most of the facts, if not all that count against George Zimmerman. The additional information that happens to fall in his favor is sometimes as unwelcome as it is accurate. Like the medical reports.

547 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:09:45pm

re: #543 Gus

Uh oh. You're in trouble now!

L

548 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:09:59pm

re: #545 live life like you have one

drawing blood is pretty invasive. i am not a lawyer but i would imagine that kind of thing would be fought tooth & nail by a defense attorney and would have to be authorized by the court. forgive my imprecise terminology but i am sure it is part of the 'innocent until proven guilty' safeguards that prevent entrapment etc. in this situation it is conceivable it might inform investigators as to the mental state of mr. Z but in general collecting and interpreting that sort of info in legal situations could be abused by the prosecutor without standards of permission etc.

See post 541, you can get a toxicology report done on you for driving funny, if that's the case then I fail to see how you don't end up getting one for killing somebody.

549 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:10:00pm

I think I'll smoke a joint and go do some violence. Jesus fucking christ I can't believe there are people who still think pot does that to people.

550 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:10:07pm

re: #547 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

L

M

551 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:11:33pm

re: #549 darthstar

I think I'll smoke a joint and go do some violence. Jesus fucking christ I can't believe there are people who still think pot does that to people.

Well, at least we know DF isn't a Ronulan.

552 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:12:01pm

re: #549 darthstar

I think I'll smoke a joint and go do some violence. Jesus fucking christ I can't believe there are people who still think pot does that to people.

Here man! Have a hit!

553 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:12:18pm

re: #551 Decatur Deb

Well, at least we know DF isn't a Ronulan.

It's times like this when I wish masturbation really did make you go blind.

554 jaunte  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:12:45pm

re: #549 darthstar

Psycho Killer

555 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:13:25pm

re: #554 jaunte

Psycho Killer

[Embedded content]

Que ce q'cest?

556 dragonath  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:13:52pm
557 jaunte  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:13:55pm

re: #555 darthstar

Latinesque!

558 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:14:05pm

re: #538 Decatur Deb

Per wiki their languages are distinct enough to identify seven of them--gets into an issue of 'lumpers' and 'splitters' again.

Wiki authors also recognize Veneto (Region of Venice) as distinct enough to be a separate language.

There is a group of languages classified as "Italian" but people who speak Napoli don't always understand Romans or Milani.

559 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:14:10pm

re: #554 jaunte

Psycho Killer

[Embedded content]

Damn RISD.

560 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:15:11pm

re: #548 jamesfirecat

true but if you get pulled over you have the choice to 'blow'. that(refusal) might result in a higher incidence of 'falling down the stairs' at the station but you still get the choice. i would defer this question to any lawyers out there who might have insight as to what can routinely be done in investigations without court orders. i haven't had any altercations with the law in a loooong time but i would be VERY hesitant to relinquish blood or urine without clearly understanding i have no legal choice in the matter.

561 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:16:20pm

re: #549 darthstar

I think I'll smoke a joint and go do some violence. Jesus fucking christ I can't believe there are people who still think pot does that to people.

I am happily high right now, and if you'll notice my fight is on the weak end. Also, my finger keyboard syncronicity is not happening. Hate the he has pot in his system excuse. Adderal - look that shit up.

562 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:16:36pm

re: #558 Learned Mother of Zion

There is a group of languages classified as "Italian" but people who speak Napoli don't always understand Romans or Milani.

I can pretty much follow people N of Rome. Daughter speaks (Official, Florentine) Italian with a Veneto accent. She had a hard time following her classmates when they shifted to pure Veneto.

563 Kronocide  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:17:21pm

re: #540 Dark_Falcon

WTF? Have you ever smoked weed? Hallucinogenic?

No way. THC in Martin's bloodstream won't make a difference. If anything, it makes people more mellow.

564 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:18:02pm

re: #558 Learned Mother of Zion

There is a group of languages classified as "Italian" but people who speak Napoli don't always understand Romans or Milani.

Years ago I took a class in Italian, where the professor explained that we were really learning "Roman." He said he couldn't be responsible if we visited Napoli or Milano and didn't understand a word. ESPECIALLY NOT SICILY OR CORSICA who knows what noise those Barbarians grunt at each other to communicate.

565 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:18:30pm

re: #561 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

I am happily high right now, and if you'll notice my fight is on the weak end. Also, my finger keyboard syncronicity is not happening. Hate the he has pot in his system excuse. Adderal - look that shit up.

Psychostimulants...basically legalized speed. Was on Ritalin for a few years because my ex thought it would help me focus. It was like revisiting my college cocaine habit...fucking shit.

566 Dark_Falcon  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:18:42pm

re: #544 darthstar

Have you ever smoked pot? THC is not a hallucinogen. And anecdotal as it may be, in my extensive experience in the use of both hallucinogens and marijuana, I've never once in over 20 years seen anyone become violent under the influence of either substance...Alcohol, more often than I care to remember. But pot or psychedelics - never.

Also, watching Reefer Madness on YouTube isn't the same as experience.

Look, I may have come at the point from an academic point of view, but I wasn't being crazy. If you think I'm wrong about THC effects, then tell me so. And BTW, I've never seen Reefer Madness, but I do understand it's a crock of crap.

567 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:19:14pm

re: #560 live life like you have one

true but if you get pulled over you have the choice to 'blow'. that might result in a higher incidence of 'falling down the stairs' at the station but you still get the choice. i would defer this question to any lawyers out there who might have insight as to what can routinely be done in investigations without court orders. i haven't had any altercations with the law in a looong time but i would be VERY hesitant to relinquish blood or urine without clearly understanding i have no legal choice in the matter.

You get a "choice" yeah, but if you do it then guess what, in my state simply refusing to take the test means automatic suspension of your license.


So you have a choice, but saying "no" is treated a lot like admitting you are guilty.

568 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:20:07pm

re: #560 live life like you have one

true but if you get pulled over you have the choice to 'blow'. that might result in a higher incidence of 'falling down the stairs' at the station but you still get the choice. i would defer this question to any lawyers out there who might have insight as to what can routinely be done in investigations without court orders. i haven't had any altercations with the law in a looong time but i would be VERY hesitant to relinquish blood or urine without clearly understanding i have no legal choice in the matter.

If you refuse to blow, you go to hospital post haste to give your blood. No choice. You think you refuse breathalyzer & they let you go?

569 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:20:44pm

re: #566 Dark_Falcon

If you think I'm wrong about THC effects, then tell me so.

You're wrong. Academically, you're totally fucking wrong.

570 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:21:06pm

re: #564 Learned Mother of Zion

Years ago I took a class in Italian, where the professor explained that we were really learning "Roman." He said he couldn't be responsible if we visited Napoli or Milano and didn't understand a word. ESPECIALLY NOT SICILY OR CORSICA who knows what noise those Barbarians grunt at each other to communicate.

The pizzas are as different as the dialects. American pizza is Sicilian/Neapolitan (sort of). Northern pizza is eaten w/ knife and fork, and often includes pineapple. They blame that on the Germans.

571 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:22:05pm

re: #563 Kronocide

WTF? Have you ever smoked weed? Hallucinogenic?

No way. THC in Martin's bloodstream won't make a difference. If anything, it makes people more mellow.

They also found massive amounts of hydrohydroxic acid in his body!!

572 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:22:39pm

re: #565 darthstar

[Link: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...]

note some of the 'side effects'

the drug level thing (in t.martin & z) pales in significance relative to the presence of mr. z's bullet in mr martin's chest

573 funky chicken  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:25:03pm

re: #309 Daniel Ballard

re: #292 Obdicut

Okay so you find it reasonable to leave a gun in the holster while getting beat on the ground. Ohhh kaaay. Would you ask that of a cop?" I doubt it. And you suddenly call kicking a person in the head (which can kill) as not lethal force. But "anything" like say blocking a punch or a judo style take down is lethal.

I can clearly see some folks can't parse one part of an incident from another, and preconceptions will rule the day.

Have a fine evening folks, I'm off to a pleasant drink with friends.

I don't find it reasonable to follow a person in a car, call the police because the person looks like a criminal, and then get out of the car to pursue the possible criminal with a weapon. Well, unless I'm a police officer.

574 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:25:38pm

Ya know, Trayvon was innocent. And now he's dead. No matter what.

Empathy.

575 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:25:49pm

re: #573 funky chicken

I don't find it reasonable to follow a person in a car, call the police because the person looks like a criminal, and then get out of the car to pursue the possible criminal with a weapon. Well, unless I'm a police officer.

Police officers identify themselves as such and at a safe distance so as to avoid a confrontation.

576 gwangung  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:29:18pm

re: #575 darthstar

Police officers identify themselves as such and at a safe distance so as to avoid a confrontation.

Hm. That's the sort of behavior the DA would ask about in a cross examination on the stand, hm? Because lack of identification would probably count against Zimmerman...

577 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:30:22pm

re: #568 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

no, certainly not 'let go'. they will collect samples to the extent of their authority (i.e. depending on the State perhaps draw blood). and of course you might 'fall down the stairs' in the course of this collection.
my point is this: protection from unlawful search & seizure and the use of evidence collected 'illegally' against you is (or at least used to be) prohibited by the constitution. you know due process (which by now might be a full fledged anachronism).
again i am no lawyer and this varies from state to state but obtaining mr z's blood might not be as easy as a simple demand from a police officer.

578 Dark_Falcon  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:30:46pm

re: #568 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

If you refuse to blow, you go to hospital post haste to give your blood. No choice. You think you refuse breathalyzer & they let you go?

In Illinois and California, if you refuse your driver's license is automatically suspended for at least 6 months. This notably happened to actor Shia Laboef: In his case the police were unable to secure a warrant for his blood, so the suspension of his license was the only consequence he suffered for being pulled over. While some may blink at my use of the word 'only', please do remember that he did manage to avoid a criminal conviction by his refusal., so it was the right paly in his case at that point (the real right play would be to have not gotten behind the wheel after drinking in the first place).

579 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:32:58pm

re: #566 Dark_Falcon

Look, I may have come at the point from an academic point of view, but I wasn't being crazy. If you think I'm wrong about THC effects, then tell me so. And BTW, I've never seen Reefer Madness, but I do understand it's a crock of crap.

D_F;
THC is not a hallucinogen.
As a rule it does not increase aggression.
It remains in the blood for weeks, well after any effect is gone.
The existence of THC in the blood does not equate to being stoned.
A bag of skittles and an iced tea will not satisfy THC munchies.
Not all psychoactive drugs are created equal.

580 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:33:24pm

re: #571 Gus

They also found massive amounts of hydrohydroxic acid in his body!!

Shut Up!

581 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:33:43pm

re: #578 Dark_Falcon

In California, you can refuse a breathalyzer and insist on a blood test at a hospital. Some people do this in the hopes that their toxicity will drop below .08 in the time it takes to get them to a hospital for a blood draw. (BAC drops at a rate of 0.02 per hour, if I recall correctly.)

582 Dark_Falcon  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:34:07pm

re: #577 live life like you have one

Stanley would be unlikely for such a 'fall'. She's a woman and that normally only happens to men. Judges and superiors will often look the other way about a cop giving a 'young punk' a beatdown, but if that same cop beats up a woman he might be turned in by his own comrades. Cops tend to hate men who beat up women, mostly because cops see the brutality of such men first hand.

583 funky chicken  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:34:41pm

re: #566 Dark_Falcon

Look, I may have come at the point from an academic point of view, but I wasn't being crazy. If you think I'm wrong about THC effects, then tell me so. And BTW, I've never seen Reefer Madness, but I do understand it's a crock of crap.

I've seen marijuana classified as a hallucinogen also, but it's nothing like magic mushrooms or LSD. Just ... trust me on that one.

Oh, and the only one of the above that was worth using more than once or twice (experiments, of course...I do have a master's in biochem) was the mushrooms. If I ever get diagnosed as terminal, I'm gonna get lots and lots of psilocybin.

584 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:35:16pm

re: #582 Dark_Falcon

I don't think gender stereotyping is a good strategy here...just saying.

585 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:36:15pm

re: #528 Learned Mother of Zion

Don't the Roma people have a distinct language which is classified as a "romance" language? Or do they not get counted because they're "Gypsies"?

That would be a question for Obdicut.

All I know is that the official "Romance" languages --those derived from Latin are the ones I had to memorize in High School.

586 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:36:56pm

re: #583 funky chicken

I've seen marijuana classified as a hallucinogen also, but it's nothing like magic mushrooms or LSD. Just ... trust me on that one.

Oh, and the only one of the above that was worth using more than once or twice (experiments, of course...I do have a master's in biochem) was the mushrooms. If I ever get diagnosed as terminal, I'm gonna get lots and lots of psilocybin.

Mushrooms taken a good twenty minutes before watching a jam band is something I highly recommend...they're also good before going to a professional baseball game (home run traces across the sky are cool!)

587 Dark_Falcon  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:38:14pm

re: #584 darthstar

I don't think gender stereotyping is a good strategy here...just saying.

I'm telling you the facts, based on what I have read and heard: Male police officers tend to be far less willing to injure (justifiably or non-justifiably) a female as opposed to a male. Some of this is based on long-existing cultural norms.

588 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:39:04pm

re: #540 Dark_Falcon

The thing is that sometimes hallucinogens make a person paranoid, and if THC made Trayvon Martin more hostile than he otherwise would have been, then that is a fact that would need to be considered. But when we talk about this, we're talking about questions of admissibility in which I have little expertise. I'm not a lawyer and I don't know what Florida law permits in this case. The THC might not be admissible at all, unless there was some way Zimmerman knew Martin was high.

weed is a downer, not a hallucinogen.

Yes, people can get paranoid on pot, but it is an extreme reaction. The average, everyday pot head is not paranoid, just happy and relaxed.

I'd compare it to Vicoden --only better. Much Better.

589 live life like you have one  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:39:36pm

re: #582 Dark_Falcon

i wasn't being specific about who might get a beatdown. my experience with the police (both personal & what friends have experienced) is that the worst should be anticipated and if not experienced then be grateful. i had a girlfriend back in the day who got a few bruises in the course of being picked up for public intoxication (lude days). no charges pressed but apparently the arresting officer had little patience for her level of intoxication. now more than ever police are capable of anything and perhaps should inspire profiling by anyone in their vicinity.

590 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:39:38pm

re: #586 darthstar

Mushrooms taken a good twenty minutes before watching a jam band is something I highly recommend...they're also good before going to a professional baseball game (home run traces across the sky are cool!)

Never done 'shrooms.

MJ, Hash, LSD are about my limit.

591 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:41:03pm

re: #565 darthstar

Psychostimulants...basically legalized speed. Was on Ritalin for a few years because my ex thought it would help me focus. It was like revisiting my college cocaine habit...fucking shit.

Adderall is Amphetamine.

Think about it.

592 funky chicken  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:42:36pm

re: #586 darthstar

I'm gonna guess the stadium lights look really pretty too.

593 Dark_Falcon  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:42:43pm

re: #591 ggt

Adderall is Amphetamine.

Think about it.

I know. Some people abuse it by grinding it to powder then snorting it. Doing that will make your paranoid, among other ever worse potential effects.

594 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:43:00pm

re: #579 Ghost of Insanity

D_F;
THC is not a hallucinogen.
As a rule it does not increase aggression.
It remains in the blood for weeks, well after any effect is gone.
The existence of THC in the blood does not equate to being stoned.
A bag of skittles and an iced tea will not satisfy THC munchies.
Not all psychoactive drugs are created equal.

I remember having to stock bags of Pizza Rolls in the freezer --anything that could be cooked easily and in a relatively short time.

595 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:43:34pm

re: #590 Ghost of Insanity

Never done 'shrooms.

MJ, Hash, LSD are about my limit.

mmmm -hash oil --

*sigh*

596 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:46:53pm

I had a good time in the 80's (as far as I can remember).

am very lucky to be able to be here, talk about it and remember it at all . . . .

There are times tho . . . .

:0

597 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:47:41pm

re: #595 ggt

mmm -hash oil --

*sigh*

Hash, an empty beer can, a knife and a BIC.

The good old days.

598 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:48:26pm

re: #596 ggt

I had a good time in the 80's (as far as I can remember).

am very lucky to be able to be here, talk about it and remember it at all . . .

There are times tho . . .

:0

The '70s was my time.

599 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:49:07pm

Now I've done it!

600 Dark_Falcon  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:49:09pm

re: #596 ggt

I had a good time in the 80's (as far as I can remember).

am very lucky to be able to be here, talk about it and remember it at all . . .

There are times tho . . .

:0

601 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:49:18pm

re: #597 Ghost of Insanity

Hash, an empty beer can, a knife and a BIC.

The good old days.

NOT to be confused with bong residue.

:0

602 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:50:06pm

re: #599 Gus

Now I've done it!

discovered cold Fusion?

Gus, you magnificent bastard!

603 funky chicken  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:50:15pm

Academically MJ is classified as a hallucinogen. It has been since the 1970s...my mom was in nursing school then and I was always a nerd.

How Does it Affect You?

A mild hallucinogen, marijuana has some of alcohol’s depressant and disinhibiting properties. User reaction, however, is heavily influenced by expectations and past experience, and many first-time users feel nothing at all.

[Link: www.acde.org...]

It would take a heck of a dose of THC to cause major hallucinations (based solely upon personal experience and observation many years ago). I never found the stuff all that great, partly because I found this to be true:

Marijuana use reduces learning ability. Research has been piling up of late demonstrating clearly that marijuana limits the capacity to absorb and retain information. A 1995 study of college students discovered that the inability of heavy marijuana users to focus, sustain attention, and organize data persists for as long as 24 hours after their last use of the drug. Earlier research, comparing cognitive abilities of adult marijuana users with non-using adults, found that users fall short on memory as well as math and verbal skills.

604 funky chicken  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:52:20pm

re: #603 funky chicken

I forgot to add: first time users who "feel nothing at all" are smoking parsley or lawn clippings.

605 palomino  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:53:54pm

re: #468 May Day! May Day!

Да!

Nein!

606 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:53:54pm

re: #602 ggt

discovered cold Fusion?

Gus, you magnificent bastard!

Tango Hotel Charlie

607 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:54:25pm

re: #603 funky chicken

Academically MJ is classified as a hallucinogen. It has been since the 1970s...my mom was in nursing school then and I was always a nerd.

[Link: www.acde.org...]

It would take a heck of a dose of THC to cause major hallucinations (based solely upon personal experience and observation many years ago). I never found the stuff all that great, partly because I found this to be true:

Over a long period, I've noticed the addage "Pot makes you dumb" seems to be true. Short Term --yeah, don't try to do math homework!!! OMG!

Although I knew people who functioned better stoned. Most were really smart and probably had some brain "issue". Pot was a way of self-medicating. I have a feeling there are better pharmaceuticals available legally today.

I had some antihistamines in college that were prescribed for my extreme allergies that were freakin' unbelievable. I actually stopped taking them because I never wanted to be that high.

608 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:54:50pm

re: #604 funky chicken

I forgot to add: first time users who "feel nothing at all" are smoking parsley or lawn clippings.

Oregano!

609 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:54:53pm

re: #603 funky chicken

Academically MJ is classified as a hallucinogen. It has been since the 1970s...my mom was in nursing school then and I was always a nerd.

[Link: www.acde.org...]

It would take a heck of a dose of THC to cause major hallucinations (based solely upon personal experience and observation many years ago). I never found the stuff all that great, partly because I found this to be true:

When I compare MJ and LSD...
One mellowifies me. (and makes me like potato chips)
The other makes me see things.

610 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:55:02pm

re: #593 Dark_Falcon

I know. Some people abuse it by grinding it to powder then snorting it. Doing that will make your paranoid, among other ever worse potential effects.

Doing that WILL get you a little amped. But paranoia is a psychological, not a physiological, condition.

611 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:55:58pm

Sierra Tango Oscar November Echo Delta

612 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:56:11pm

Come in please.

613 palomino  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:56:11pm

re: #588 ggt

weed is a downer, not a hallucinogen.

Yes, people can get paranoid on pot, but it is an extreme reaction. The average, everyday pot head is not paranoid, just happy and relaxed.

I'd compare it to Vicoden --only better. Much Better.

Correct you are. Plus pot stays in the bloodstream for a very long time, sometimes more than a month. So the presence of pot doesn't even mean he was high at the time. It may just mean he was a normal 17-year old.

614 Big Joe  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:56:51pm

re: #597 Ghost of Insanity

Hash, an empty beer can, a knife and a BIC.

The good old days.

Proto Pipe, made in America by Americans.

Image: Proto%20Pipe.JPG

615 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:57:48pm

re: #614 Purple Throbbing Standby

Proto Pipe, made in America by Americans.

Image: Proto%20Pipe.JPG

A truly magnificent and convenient invention.

616 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:57:49pm

re: #609 Ghost of Insanity

When I compare MJ and LSD...
One mellowifies me. (and makes me like potato chips)
The other makes me see things.

Yeah, when I think of a hallucinogen, I think of a drug that produces visual distortions--hallucinations.

Never did that. Never appealed to me. I think as a visual arts major --I never needed the help. :0

617 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:58:13pm

re: #611 Gus

Sierra Tango Oscar November Echo Delta

Banana Ugni Lemon Lime

618 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:58:14pm

re: #615 darthstar

A truly magnificent and convenient invention.

one hitter --best invention ever!

619 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:58:54pm

Saturday. Space-X. Big step in private space.

620 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:59:16pm

re: #613 palomino

Correct you are. Plus pot stays in the bloodstream for a very long time, sometimes more than a month. So the presence of pot doesn't even mean he was high at the time. It may just mean he was a normal 17-year old.

I mean really, if I had gotten suspended from school and was staying with my Dad (or the weekend visitation parent) away from my normal routine --I'd have been getting high too.

WTF?

621 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:59:20pm

re: #617 Ghost of Insanity

Banana Ugni Lemon Lime

Sierra Hotel India Tango

622 Big Joe  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:59:55pm

re: #618 ggt

one hitter --best invention ever!

Not really, the bowl is fairly large.

623 Big Joe  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:00:46pm

re: #622 Purple Throbbing Standby

Oh wait, that was a recommendation. never mind.

624 funky chicken  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:00:57pm

re: #609 Ghost of Insanity

When I compare MJ and LSD...
One mellowifies me. (and makes me like potato chips)
The other makes me see things.

Magic mushrooms do both, at the same time. Lovely.

But maybe not around any more? That drug ed website I pulled the MJ blurb didn't even have a page for mushrooms. LSD was put on the same info sheet with PCP. (um, fellas?) and they had a page on GHB and Rufies, heroin, etc. But no mushrooms?

625 Targetpractice  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:01:21pm

re: #619 Gus

Saturday. Space-X. Big step in private space.

Eh?

626 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:01:26pm

re: #622 Purple Throbbing Standby

Not really, the bowl is fairly large.

I always thought the one-hitter was better camouflaged. If someone (mom) came buy, she wouldn't even notice it or might think it was a wooden cigarette case.

627 Mich-again  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:01:44pm

re: #507 Dark_Falcon

Marijuana stays in your system for a month or so. Is that the angle, well he was just a pothead so who gives a f*?

I wonder how many of the beloved Florida Gators football team would pass that test.

628 Dark_Falcon  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:01:45pm

re: #620 ggt

I mean really, if I had gotten suspended from school and was staying with my Dad (or the weekend visitation parent) away from my normal routine --I'd have been getting high too.

WTF?

Even when having a bag with marijuana residue in your possession was what got you in trouble in the first place ?

629 palomino  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:02:55pm

re: #620 ggt

I mean really, if I had gotten suspended from school and was staying with my Dad (or the weekend visitation parent) away from my normal routine --I'd have been getting high too.

WTF?

Right on. I can certainly relate. I'd rather have another root canal than spend unintoxicated time with my in-laws.

630 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:03:21pm

re: #625 Targetpractice

Eh?

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

631 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:03:26pm

re: #618 ggt

one hitter --best invention ever!

When I was smoking pot regularly, I bought a number of hand-made glass pipes. My favorite was this burbler (had a small resevoir end for water)...the thing was about 10" long and could hold a good gram in the bowl. I'd carry it in my jacket and then break it out at shows...people would fill it for me because it was such a beauty and they wanted to use it. Christ I smoked a lot of pot in those days...and I was generous with whomever was around me, so I'd go through a $50 bag in a couple of hours...all the more fun I figured.

632 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:03:50pm

re: #628 Dark_Falcon

Even when having a bag with marijuana residue in your possession was what got you in trouble in the first place ?

Hey, don't look for logic from a teenager . . .

Perhaps having been caught with the bag was a sign he needed a psych eval --perhaps needed anti-anxiety meds or something?

IMHO, people use drugs very often as a way of self-medicating --long before addiction takes over.

If my kid was found with illegal drugs of any kind, I'd first wonder why it appealed to him --and was he attempting to self-medicate.

I know I certainly was. Mood disorders tend to run in families.

633 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:04:27pm

re: #628 Dark_Falcon

Even when having a bag with marijuana residue in your possession was what got you in trouble in the first place ?

Weed is nothing.

634 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:04:30pm

re: #628 Dark_Falcon

Even when having a bag with marijuana residue in your possession was what got you in trouble in the first place ?

Trayvon's having been busted with trace amounts of pot previously had nothing to do with that fucker shooting him.

635 Mich-again  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:04:34pm

re: #540 Dark_Falcon

Weed as a Hallucinogenic? HAHA.. that's pretty hysterical. I see you got your information from watching the black and white silent movie Reefer Madness..

636 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:05:19pm

re: #633 Ghost of Insanity

Weed is nothing.

The only difference between weed and beer is that one is legal and the other is not.

Seriously . . .

637 Mich-again  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:06:02pm

In Florida its open season on people who smoke pot. Shoot to kill!

638 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:06:07pm
639 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:06:33pm

re: #636 ggt

The only difference between weed and beer is that one is legal and the other is not.

Seriously . . .

Alcohol is worse.

640 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:06:35pm

re: #637 Mich-again

In Florida its open season on people who smoke pot. Shoot to kill!

Igloo White. Remember?

641 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:06:36pm

re: #636 ggt

The only difference between weed and beer is that one is legal and the other is not.

Seriously . . .

And people get violent after several beers. People who do a lot of weed are only dangerous to you if you're a pizza.

642 Targetpractice  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:06:58pm

re: #630 Gus

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

If it succeeds, it will definitely be a big step in the right direction. Though they're still not predicting manned flights til 2015.

643 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:07:09pm

re: #639 Ghost of Insanity

Alcohol is worse.

I have my own feelings on that too. I'd agree, but either one is not good for a teenager.

644 Dark_Falcon  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:07:26pm

re: #634 darthstar

Trayvon's having been busted with trace amounts of pot previously had nothing to do with that fucker shooting him.

I did not say it did or suggest that in any way.

645 Big Joe  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:07:45pm

re: #636 ggt

I disagree. Weed never made me do stupid shit or say things I shouldn't.

646 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:08:08pm

re: #634 darthstar

Trayvon's having been busted with trace amounts of pot previously had nothing to do with that fucker shooting him.

Oh yeah, and shooting an un-armed kid makes you a fucker...you may get acquitted at trial (found not guilty, not the same as innocent), but you're still a fucker.

647 funky chicken  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:08:32pm
The psychedelic drug in magic mushrooms may have lasting medical and spiritual benefits, according to new research from Johns Hopkins School of Medicine.

The mushroom-derived hallucinogen, called psilocybin, is known to trigger transformative spiritual states, but at high doses it can also result in “bad trips” marked by terror and panic. The trick is to get the dose just right, which the Johns Hopkins researchers report having accomplished.

Read more: [Link: healthland.time.com...]

just sayin'

648 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:08:55pm

re: #641 darthstar

And people get violent after several beers. People who do a lot of weed are only dangerous to you if you're a pizza.

Yes, excessive alcohol intake stops seritonin (production or uptake-I forget). Seritonin is what allows us to put the brakes on our primitive instincts. Also alcohol is basically sugar and water. Exactly what the brain uses for fuel. It affects the whole brain in ways scientists don't even know yet.

649 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:09:07pm

re: #642 Targetpractice

If it succeeds, it will definitely be a big step in the right direction. Though they're still not predicting manned flights til 2015.

Yeah. Nobody wants to die. :)

650 palomino  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:09:21pm

re: #632 ggt

Hey, don't look for logic from a teenager . . .

Perhaps having been caught with the bag was a sign he needed a psych eval --perhaps needed anti-anxiety meds or something?

IMHO, people use drugs very often as a way of self-medicating --long before addiction takes over.

If my kid was found with illegal drugs of any kind, I'd first wonder why it appealed to him --and was he attempting to self-medicate.

I know I certainly was. Mood disorders tend to run in families.

Well said. One of the biggest misconceptions about drug addicts is that they are depraved hedonistic pleasure seekers. While some may fit into such a category, most certainly do not. They're self-medicating, not having illicit pleasure at someone else's expense.

We fight a War on Drugs, while the rest of the civilized world fights a War of Harm Reduction, in which drug use is seen more as a public health problem than an issue of criminality. Maybe we'll catch up someday.

651 Mich-again  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:09:35pm

The death toll from alcohol is 1,000,000 times higher than from weed. Its not even a comparison.

652 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:09:41pm

re: #644 Dark_Falcon

I did not say it did or suggest that in any way.

You've been defending Zimmerman here for hours (whether you wish to admit it or not). At the least, you've been citing reasons why Trayvon wasn't an innocent in your opinion. Either way, it's bullshit.

653 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:09:41pm

re: #645 Purple Throbbing Standby

I disagree. Weed never made me do stupid shit or say things I shouldn't.

Really?

654 Targetpractice  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:10:04pm

re: #649 Gus

Yeah. Nobody wants to die. :)

True. However, it does seem to be an almost complete 180 from the early days of spaceflight, when scientists and engineers were willing to take far larger risks just to reach the next milestone on the board.

655 Big Joe  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:10:37pm

re: #653 ggt

Yep

656 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:10:52pm

Okay...wife's almost home...time to get a cocktail ready for her as she's had a long day.

Peace.

657 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:11:04pm

re: #650 palomino

Well said. One of the biggest misconceptions about drug addicts is that they are depraved hedonistic pleasure seekers. While some may fit into such a category, most certainly do not. They're self-medicating, not having illicit pleasure at someone else's expense.

We fight a War on Drugs, while the rest of the civilized world fights a War of Harm Reduction, in which drug use is seen more as a public health problem than an issue of criminality. Maybe we'll catch up someday.

Right --Mental Health is still a taboo among many and the COST is something people don't seem to want to pay. Even tho the cost of not treating disorders is so much higher. Private Prisons would go broke.

658 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:11:21pm

re: #643 ggt

I have my own feelings on that too. I'd agree, but either one is not good for a teenager.

I've gotten in fights while drunk (only two that I remember), but never while stoned.

I have played guitar while stoned and while drunk. I suck as a musician big time when drunk.

659 funky chicken  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:12:17pm
“The important point here is that we found the sweet spot where we can optimize the positive persistent effects and avoid some of the fear and anxiety that can occur and can be quite disruptive,” says lead author Roland Griffiths, professor of behavioral biology at Hopkins.

Giffiths’ study involved 18 healthy adults, average age 46, who participated in five eight-hour drug sessions with either psilocybin — at varying doses — or placebo. Nearly all the volunteers were college graduates and 78% participated regularly in religious activities; all were interested in spiritual experience.

Read more: [Link: healthland.time.com...]

I've found my calling in life...to be a subject in Roland Griffiths's next mushroom study.

660 palomino  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:12:18pm

re: #635 Mich-again

Weed as a Hallucinogenic? HAHA.. that's pretty hysterical. I see you got your information from watching the black and white silent movie Reefer Madness..

"Nicotine, Valium, Vicodin, Marijuana, Ecstasy and Alcohol" (name that tune!)

Anyone who's done a real hallucinogenic knows that pot isn't one. Pot is similar to alcohol with less hangover and violent side effects.

661 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:12:21pm

re: #658 Ghost of Insanity

I've gotten in fights while drunk (only two that I remember), but never while stoned.

I have played guitar while stoned and while drunk. I suck as a musician big time when drunk.

creativity, I think, requires relaxation and muscle control

LOL

662 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:12:51pm

re: #660 palomino

"Nicotine, Valium, Vicodin, Marijuana, Ecstasy and Alcohol" (name that tune!)

Anyone who's done a real hallucinogenic knows that pot isn't one. Pot is similar to alcohol with less hangover and violent side effects.

Nicotine is a stimulent.

663 Big Joe  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:13:25pm

re: #653 ggt

Really?

With the exception of nude body surfing on a gravel beach.

664 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:13:52pm

re: #655 Purple Throbbing Standby

Yep

And this is your own opinion or have others told you this?

665 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:14:37pm

re: #650 palomino

Well said. One of the biggest misconceptions about drug addicts is that they are depraved hedonistic pleasure seekers. While some may fit into such a category, most certainly do not. They're self-medicating, not having illicit pleasure at someone else's expense.

We fight a War on Drugs, while the rest of the civilized world fights a War of Harm Reduction, in which drug use is seen more as a public health problem than an issue of criminality. Maybe we'll catch up someday.

In Canada we have one injection site in Vancouver. The conservatives are trying to get it shut down because they believe it condones drug use.

666 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:14:56pm

re: #654 Targetpractice

True. However, it does seem to be an almost complete 180 from the early days of spaceflight, when scientists and engineers were willing to take far larger risks just to reach the next milestone on the board.

Keep in mind that the Mercury project was huge and well funded. You also had a fighter pilot astronaut crew that were already willing to die in combat. Preferably while doing ACMs. Well funded by DC. Big political points. Etc.

667 sagehen  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:15:05pm

re: #583 funky chicken

I've seen marijuana classified as a hallucinogen also, but it's nothing like magic mushrooms or LSD. Just ... trust me on that one.

Oh, and the only one of the above that was worth using more than once or twice (experiments, of course...I do have a master's in biochem) was the mushrooms. If I ever get diagnosed as terminal, I'm gonna get lots and lots of psilocybin.

If you're going to advise people to use mushrooms, be sure to explain (with accurate full-color drawings) the difference between psilocyb cubensis (good) and amanita muscaria (not good). The dealers rarely seem to be certain which they're moving... and if they claim to be certain, they're usually lying.

(protip... it's good if the dried caps have a purplish tint around the cut.)

(Another protip -- the taste is sort of icky, and taking it on an empty stomach is less than ideal, but crumbled into spaghetti sauce about 1-2 minutes before taking it off the stove works great -- just long enough to warm and soften, without diminishing potency, and brings it on in a gentle glide.)

668 Big Joe  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:15:18pm

re: #664 ggt

And this is your own opinion or have others told you this?

Nobody has told me I did something stupid while stoned.

669 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:15:20pm

re: #665 Ghost of Insanity

In Canada we have one injection site in Vancouver. The conservatives are trying to get it shut down because they believe it condones drug use.

Because it's all about appearances--right?

670 austin_blue  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:15:38pm

re: #665 Ghost of Insanity

In Canada we have one injection site in Vancouver. The conservatives are trying to get it shut down because they believe it condones drug use.

Umbrellas cause rain, too. Known fact.

671 palomino  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:16:02pm

re: #651 Mich-again

The death toll from alcohol is 1,000,000 times higher than from weed. Its not even a comparison.

And yet we fear pot far more than alcohol. I think it's partly the stigma that was attached to it in the 60s as a counterculture America-hater kind of drug.

Mom and Dad with their martinis and daquiris and driving drunk, no big deal back then. But if the kids smoked pot, it was the end of the world.

672 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:16:15pm

re: #656 darthstar

Okay...wife's almost home...time to get a cocktail ready for her as she's had a long day.

Peace.

Suckup!

673 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:16:52pm

Fuck it. Let's try the experiment from The Wire Season 3. Hamsterdam ftw!

674 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:16:52pm

I'm going to be creative on Photoshop and listen to my book for a while.

bbl

675 sagehen  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:17:02pm

re: #586 darthstar

Mushrooms taken a good twenty minutes before watching a jam band is something I highly recommend...they're also good before going to a professional baseball game (home run traces across the sky are cool!)

Halloween.

Fourth of July.

Disneyland.

676 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:17:14pm

Is @IDFRabbi a real IDF Rabbi?

677 Mich-again  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:18:11pm

re: #671 palomino

Driving drunk leads to cars in ditches and wrapped around trees and dead bodies.. Driving high leads to people missing their exit.

678 palomino  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:18:31pm

re: #662 ggt

Nicotine is a stimulent.

The quote is part of a song lyric: Queens of the Stone Age's "Better Living Through Chemistry"

And I was feebly trying to make the point that some people incorrectly lump all those together PLUS pot, as if they were all basically the same.

679 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:18:57pm

re: #498 ggt

Technically, Romanians would be Latino as well.

The 5 Romance Languages are:

Latin, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, & Romanian.

(yes? DId I remember all that from High School, I hope I got it right)

French. French.

I don't know if Latin counts, actually. It's the source language. Not one of the branches.

680 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:19:23pm

re: #661 ggt

creativity, I think, requires relaxation and muscle control

LOL

Should I go there?

681 palomino  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:20:01pm

re: #665 Ghost of Insanity

In Canada we have one injection site in Vancouver. The conservatives are trying to get it shut down because they believe it condones drug use.

That sucks, but at least your prisons aren't filled to our extent with nonviolent drug offenders, right?

682 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:20:23pm

re: #678 palomino

The quote is part of a song lyric: Queens of the Stone Age's "Better Living Through Chemistry"

And I was feebly trying to make the point that some people incorrectly lump all those together PLUS pot, as if they were all basically the same.

Yeah. I have NEVER seen pot do this to a person.

683 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:20:30pm

re: #528 Learned Mother of Zion

Don't the Roma people have a distinct language which is classified as a "romance" language? Or do they not get counted because they're "Gypsies"?

Nope, Romani is closer to Hindi. It's an Indo-European language, but not derived from Latin.

684 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:20:34pm

re: #680 Ghost of Insanity

Should I go there?

You'll go blind you know.

685 funky chicken  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:20:50pm

re: #660 palomino

"Nicotine, Valium, Vicodin, Marijuana, Ecstasy and Alcohol" (name that tune!)

At the same time? Death

I think marijuana is the hardest to OD on in that list, but it would be tough to get enough nicotine in the system at once without a pure source. I wouldn't use MDMA these days...I don't think you can find pharmaceutical grade any more, and the bathtub crap kills people.

I've never understood the appeal of narcotics. They kill pain but I hate the sedation. I don't find sedation fun. And they make me puke, which ain't great either, obviously.

686 Dark_Falcon  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:20:51pm

re: #673 Assemble!

Fuck it. Let's try the experiment from The Wire Season 3. Hamsterdam ftw!

Not gonna happen. It would be depicted by too many people as surrender.

687 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:21:27pm

re: #686 Dark_Falcon

Not gonna happen. It would be depicted by too many people as surrender.

*eyeroll*

688 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:21:34pm

re: #538 Decatur Deb

Per wiki their languages are distinct enough to identify seven of them--gets into an issue of 'lumpers' and 'splitters' again.

Wiki authors also recognize Veneto (Region of Venice) as distinct enough to be a separate language.

Well, if you get into little ones, there are dozens of Italian dialects, there's Ladino, there's Haitian Creole...lots and LOTS of Romance languages.

689 palomino  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:22:03pm

re: #682 Assemble!

Yeah. I have NEVER seen pot do this to a person.

Ouch! She aged two decades in just 4 years.

690 Mich-again  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:22:47pm

I will add though that mixing weed and alcohol is worse than either by itself. Something about how weed disrupts the body's ability to metabolize the alcohol? By itself, eh, no biggie. But it can be harmful when mixed with booze.

691 funky chicken  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:23:45pm

re: #667 sagehen

If you're going to advise people to use mushrooms, be sure to explain (with accurate full-color drawings) the difference between psilocyb cubensis (good) and amanita muscaria (not good). The dealers rarely seem to be certain which they're moving... and if they claim to be certain, they're usually lying.

(protip... it's good if the dried caps have a purplish tint around the cut.)

(Another protip -- the taste is sort of icky, and taking it on an empty stomach is less than ideal, but crumbled into spaghetti sauce about 1-2 minutes before taking it off the stove works great -- just long enough to warm and soften, without diminishing potency, and brings it on in a gentle glide.)

LOLZ...not advising anybody try any hallucinogen, just saying the only one I'd do again is mushrooms.

And people sell amanita? Isn't that the death cap, or angel of death or whatever? Who on earth would sell that to somebody?

692 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:23:47pm

re: #689 palomino

Ouch! She aged two decades in just 4 years.

Scary shit.

[Link: www.ebaumsworld.com...]

693 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:23:48pm

re: #564 Learned Mother of Zion

Years ago I took a class in Italian, where the professor explained that we were really learning "Roman." He said he couldn't be responsible if we visited Napoli or Milano and didn't understand a word. ESPECIALLY NOT SICILY OR CORSICA who knows what noise those Barbarians grunt at each other to communicate.

I thought they spoke a variant of French in Corsica.

Sicilians are slowly starting to speak something closer to Northern Italian Italian. A woman whose essays I read talks about how her mother got in touch with distant cousins in Sicily, generations after her branch relocated to New Jersey. They couldn't understand her dialect. She was so upset she called a cousin, just to get confirmation that she was really speaking Italian.

694 palomino  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:24:27pm

re: #686 Dark_Falcon

Not gonna happen. It would be depicted by too many people as surrender.

Yes, much better to fight an unwinnable war than to "surrender", or change policy at all.

This is just one more area where we are laughably but also tragically behind most of the developed world.

695 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:24:40pm

re: #681 palomino

That sucks, but at least your prisons aren't filled to our extent with nonviolent drug offenders, right?

Watch as our laws are toughened up, options are taken away from judges and new prisons are built. These are all being done right now.

The Conservatives are making Canada into US junior.

696 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:25:10pm

re: #690 Mich-again

I will add though that mixing weed and alcohol is worse than either by itself. Something about how weed disrupts the body's ability to metabolize the alcohol? By itself, eh, no biggie. But it can be harmful when mixed with booze.

We all have our personal tastes many of which are different.

697 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:25:17pm

re: #691 funky chicken

LOLZ...not advising anybody try any hallucinogen, just saying the only one I'd do again is mushrooms.

And people sell amanita? Isn't that the death cap, or angel of death or whatever? Who on earth would sell that to somebody?

Kinda easy to get away with when anyone who would be so degenerate as to even contemplate buying drugs doesn't matter to us anymore.

698 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:25:32pm

re: #676 Gus

Is @IDFRabbi a real IDF Rabbi?

Hard to tell. Who the hell is @IDFRabbi?

699 sagehen  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:25:33pm

re: #636 ggt

The only difference between weed and beer is that one is legal and the other is not.

Seriously . . .

More relevant difference:

Nobody in the entire history of the world has ever OD'd on pot.

Every emergency room, in every hospital in the country, sees alcohol poisoning on a regular basis.

700 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:25:37pm

re: #684 Gus

You'll go blind you know.

I'm afraid.

701 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:27:48pm

re: #698 SanFranciscoZionist

Hard to tell. Who the hell is @IDFRabbi?

Some guy on Twitter following me. Has over 8,000 followers. Does a lot of religious Tweets. "But your servants will pass over, every man armed for war, before the LORD to battle." (Torah: במדבר Numbers 23:27)"

Friend of the Israeli soldier and Mossad agent. Champion of the victory forces of Ha Shem. The Voice of Israel and Prophet of Israel. Warrior Class.

702 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:27:49pm

re: #691 funky chicken

LOLZ...not advising anybody try any hallucinogen, just saying the only one I'd do again is mushrooms.

And people sell amanita? Isn't that the death cap, or angel of death or whatever? Who on earth would sell that to somebody?

Amanita is a hallucinogen. Poisonous, yes, but can also be used as a drug. Used religiously in a wide range of cultures, including possibly early Christianity.

703 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:28:44pm

re: #700 Ghost of Insanity

I'm afraid.

You should be afraid. Very, very, afraid.

They're coming...

...They're here.

[Shocking violins!]

704 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:30:10pm

re: #701 Gus

Some guy on Twitter following me. Has over 8,000 followers. Does a lot of religious Tweets. "But your servants will pass over, every man armed for war, before the LORD to battle." (Torah: במדבר Numbers 23:27)"

If he's calling HIMSELF a prophet of Israel, probably not a real rabbi. That's kind of a major no-no.

705 palomino  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:30:34pm

re: #699 sagehen

More relevant difference:

Nobody in the entire history of the world has ever OD'd on pot.

Every emergency room, in every hospital in the country, sees alcohol poisoning on a regular basis.

"Marijuana is the fuse, heroin is the flame, and LSD is the bomb." --Sgt. Joe Friday, "Dragnet", late 60's "Let's Scare the Hell out of Everyone" episode

Strangely enough only one of those drugs can lead to death by overdose. LSD also has exactly zero recorded overdoses. But it can lead to mental breakdowns. Syd Barrett, for example, I think.

706 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:30:59pm

re: #701 Gus

Some guy on Twitter following me. Has over 8,000 followers. Does a lot of religious Tweets. "But your servants will pass over, every man armed for war, before the LORD to battle." (Torah: במדבר Numbers 23:27)"

Ignore him.
Block him.
Throw him into a fan.
Whatever.

707 funky chicken  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:31:37pm
Amanita ocreata, commonly known as the death angel, destroying angel, angel of death or more precisely Western North American destroying angel, is a deadly poisonous basidiomycete fungus, one of many in the genus Amanita.

I wouldn't want A. muscaria either. I'm not sure how one would confuse it with the psilocybin though. I'll never use them again, since I no longer have a friend with my same degree who grows them anyway. Oh well.

My "nonprotip" is to never buy a possibly psychoactive substance from anybody you don't know and respect as a scientist. I was in a unique situation way back when.

708 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:31:44pm

re: #703 Gus

You should be afraid. Very, very, afraid.

They're coming...

...They're here.

[Shocking violins!]

The attack from Vagistan has arrived?

709 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:32:03pm

Heh. We're 2 floors down, now.

710 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:32:40pm

re: #706 Ghost of Insanity

Ignore him.
Block him.
Throw him into a fan.
Whatever.

He seems harmless. I only have one rule for my followers. Don't complain about my Tweets. ;)

711 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:32:56pm

re: #709 It's a cookbook!

Heh. We're 2 floors down, now.

Mushrooms grow best in the dark.

712 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:33:45pm

re: #704 SanFranciscoZionist

If he's calling HIMSELF a prophet of Israel, probably not a real rabbi. That's kind of a major no-no.

Was just curious. Maybe he likes atheists.

713 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:34:08pm

re: #712 Gus

Was just curious. Maybe he likes atheists.

Only one way to find out.

714 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:34:28pm

re: #713 SanFranciscoZionist

Only one way to find out.

Yep.

715 funky chicken  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:35:39pm

re: #702 SanFranciscoZionist

Amanita is a hallucinogen. Poisonous, yes, but can also be used as a drug. Used religiously in a wide range of cultures, including possibly early Christianity.

Huh. That could explain some silly superstitions about demon possession or something. Too much Amanita causes scary symptoms, at least from what I've read.

716 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:37:32pm

re: #713 SanFranciscoZionist

Only one way to find out.

Praise Jesus and see if he bails?

717 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:39:34pm

re: #686 Dark_Falcon

Not gonna happen. It would be depicted by too many people as surrender.

Dark! I figured it out. You just gotta try some weed man.

//

718 funky chicken  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:40:45pm

Just Wikipedia again, but sounds like what i remember from textbooks:

Similar in toxicity to the death cap (A. phalloides) and destroying angels of Europe (A. virosa) and eastern North America (A. bisporigera), it is a potentially deadly fungus responsible for a number of poisonings in California.[1] Its principal toxic constituent, α-amanitin, damages the liver and kidneys, often fatally, and has no known antidote.[2] The initial symptoms are gastrointestinal and include colicky abdominal pain, diarrhea and vomiting. These subside temporarily after 2–3 days, though ongoing damage to internal organs during this time is common; symptoms of jaundice, diarrhea, delirium, seizures, and coma may follow with death from liver failure 6–16 days post ingestion.

I didn't know people would try to use this crap to get high. Jeez.

719 sagehen  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:40:55pm

re: #691 funky chicken

LOLZ...not advising anybody try any hallucinogen, just saying the only one I'd do again is mushrooms.

And people sell amanita? Isn't that the death cap, or angel of death or whatever? Who on earth would sell that to somebody?

No, it's not quite that bad... the lethal dose is way more than anybody would do recreationally, it hardly ever happens. But it's a twitchy, speedy high, with not much in the way of visuals.

It was used for millennia in Asia (north and south) and Scandanavia. Reindeer love it, it's mentioned in parts of the Rig Veda, and it may be what Aldous Huxley used as the basis for Soma in "Brave New World".

720 prairiefire  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:48:43pm

re: #707 funky chicken

As a scientist? Hmm.

721 Dark_Falcon  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:50:47pm

re: #705 palomino

"Marijuana is the fuse, heroin is the flame, and LSD is the bomb." --Sgt. Joe Friday, "Dragnet", late 60's "Let's Scare the Hell out of Everyone" episode

Strangely enough only one of those drugs can lead to death by overdose. LSD also has exactly zero recorded overdoses. But it can lead to mental breakdowns. Syd Barrett, for example, I think.

It really was a shame that they shot those "drug scare" episodes. Dragnet was still a good shot during its second run when it was thugs, robbers and murderers Joe Friday was after. But when the topic turned to drugs, the show turned into a characterture.

722 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:53:27pm
723 funky chicken  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:55:10pm

re: #720 prairiefire

As a scientist? Hmm.

Hey, we were all graduating or entering grad school in biology/chem/biochem/ etc. I never knew of this "drug dealer" phenomenon others seem to speak of. I knew, er, farmers and growers, and yes, respected them as fellow scientists.

That's probably why I can't imagine someone selling Amanita or fake MDMA or whatever. You really could kill somebody.

724 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:56:16pm

re: #723 funky chicken

Hey, we were all graduating or entering grad school in biology/chem/biochem/ etc. I never knew of this "drug dealer" phenomenon others seem to speak of. I knew, er, farmers and growers, and yes, respected them as fellow scientists.

That's probably why I can't imagine someone selling Amanita or fake MDMA or whatever. You really could kill somebody.

There are an unfortunate number of people who don't see that as a major problem.

725 Big Joe  Thu, May 17, 2012 10:03:32pm

re: #723 funky chicken

I always got them through like minded people. They were already "taste-tested" prior to me getting them. Amanita usually gets ingested by people thinking they were edible food-type mushrooms.

726 funky chicken  Thu, May 17, 2012 10:07:02pm

Well, off to bed. Maybe I'll dream about getting selected to be in a psilocybin study. LOL. I'd trust Johns Hopkins.

727 austin_blue  Thu, May 17, 2012 11:08:22pm

re: #722 Gus

Mexico's Drug War: 50,000 Dead in 6 Years

=CONTENT WARNING=

Grim grim grim. if this was happening at that level in the States, the counterforce response would be unbelievable. My neighborhood would be, literally, up in arms. Don't fuck with Bouldin Creek. We are heavily armed Liberals.


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