Why Do Conservatives Fear Gay Marriage?

I’m just asking…
Opinion • Views: 40,730

Since President Obama’s recent endorsement of gay marriage, and the ensuing backlash from the Right, a question has been bugging me…

Just why do many people - particularly religious conservatives - fear gay marriage, especially when they seem willing to at least tolerate the legality of gay behavior? I realize that looking for reasons in a case like this is often bound to produce only frustration, but it might be interesting to catalog at least the sorts of explanations those who fear same-sex marriage usually set forth.

A common explanation cites the biblical condemnation of gay behavior as an “abomination”. A problem with this explanation is that, presumably, gay people in our society will engage in gay sex whether they are married or not; there is no reason to think that preventing them from marrying results in less gay sex, and at least some reason to think that it actually results in more gay sex, and hence in more “abomination”. Surely adopting policies that keep gay sex more promiscuous than it might otherwise be isn’t a very effective way of pleasing God!

There are, of course, many other arguments against gay marriage, including an obvious instance of the slippery slope fallacy and various economic concerns, all of which are easy to debunk, as this article by Tom Head rather effortlessly demonstrates: “10 Really Bad Arguments Against Same-Sex Marriage…”.

As you can see from that article, theological arguments against same-sex marriage apparently all have countervailing theological arguments, and the empirical arguments - alleging deleterious effects on society, children, or straight marriage - have no evidential support that stands up to even the most cursory scrutiny. This fact, of course, provided the basis of Judge Vaughn R. Walker’s famous decision that California’s Proposition 8 violated the Equal Protection clause. If you’ve never read Judge Walker’s decision, you can read it here. Here’s the conclusion, after 135 pages of careful legal reasoning-

Proposition 8 fails to advance any rational basis in singling out gay men and lesbians for denial of a marriage license. Indeed, the evidence shows Proposition 8 does nothing more than enshrine in the California Constitution the notion that opposite-sex couples are superior to same-sex couples. Because California has no interest in discriminating against gay men and lesbians, and because Proposition 8 prevents California from fulfilling its constitutional obligation to provide marriages on an equal basis, the court concludes that Proposition 8 is unconstitutional.

Now, putting aside the technical legal arguments, perhaps the most common argument against legally recognizing same-sex unions is that “normalizing” such unions would result in their becoming more common, and that this would devalue or diminish heterosexual marriage. Such arguments often use analogical reasoning, and the sorts of analogies that come to mind in this context might include devaluation of the dollar (via inflation) by printing more dollars, or diminishing the quality of a wine by diluting it with water. Such analogies are obviously weak: the value of a particular marriage has nothing to do with the overall number of marriages, and producing more wine, even a new category of wine, does not dilute other bottles of wine. This is true even if those new bottles of wine are diluted relative to the others (as conservatives argue gay marriages are less valuable than straight marriages). Of course, if the new category of wine were diluted, then the average quality of all of the wine in the world would be diminished. But surely the value of marriage, in the only sense that has practical consequences, depends on the value of each marriage, and on the additive effects of those marriages on society - not on any merely theoretical average number. So… just how could expanding the category of marriage to include a new “vintage” devalue the other, pre-existing vintage? Well, only if the new vintage were perceived to be better

Could this be the correct explanation of the fear? Could it be that conservatives (subconsciously?) believe that if same-sex marriage were to become more accepted and hence more common, heterosexuals would actually begin converting their sexual orientation? Could conservatives really (subconsciously?) believe that gay sex is so much better than straight sex, or that switching one’s sexual preference is, at least for most people, as easy as switching brands? It sounds silly, but you do often hear conservatives fantasizing about gay folks - especially teachers - “recruiting” children who would otherwise be straight, as if changing or determining someone’s sexual orientation - even a child’s - were as easy as giving them the right sales pitch!

I’m sure that there are plenty considerations I’ve missed, including some that might buck up the conservative case against gay marriage. It is true, for instance, that legally recognizing gay marriage would be a social experiment whose long term consequences are not entirely predictable. What is disappointing is that in the very next breath, conservatives are likely to deny the much more predictable and clearly dire consequences of that other “social experiment” in which we’ve been engaged for a hundred years: dumping millions of tons of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. Since changing marriage law would be a lot easier than repairing the atmosphere, I’d much rather experiment with same-sex marriage than with global warming.

Anyway, I’m just asking the question; I haven’t settled on any answer. So if you feel like venturing an opinion, I’d love to hear it. The comments are open.

More: blogherenow.net

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496 comments
1 Romantic Heretic  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:24:54pm

They fear gay marriage because it is a threat to their power.

For a long time now when conservatives said, "This is bad," people in the U.S. have tended to along with them, or at least not oppose them. Conservatives have either controlled or been in very powerful opposition for decades now.

Now, despite all their efforts, they're becoming ineffectual. They can't stop gay marriage and they know it.

Like most people used to power this fact is driving them a bit bug shit.

2 Larry A. Herzberg  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:30:43pm

re: #1 Romantic Heretic

They fear gay marriage because it is a threat to their power.

For a long time now when conservatives said, "This is bad," people in the U.S. have tended to along with them, or at least not oppose them. Conservatives have either controlled or been in very powerful opposition for decades now.

Now, despite all their efforts, they're becoming ineffectual. They can't stop gay marriage and they know it.

Like most people used to power this fact is driving them a bit bug shit.

Maybe so, but what about all the powerless people who oppose gay marriage (for instance, the majority of the black community in California). You can't fear losing power if you never had it...

3 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:19:03pm

Promoted to the front page!

4 calochortus  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:19:05pm

There is also a fear of upsetting the hierarchical nature of traditional society-God over kings, kings over nobles, nobles over commoners, men over women. In a same sex relationship it is very hard to assign a higher legal value to one partner over the other.
It is related to the same problem with interracial marriages. There has been less concern , historically, about white men marrying non-white women. The man has higher status based on sex and race so there isn't the same conflict that arises with a white woman and a non-white man

5 Larry A. Herzberg  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:26:01pm

re: #4 calochortus

There is also a fear of upsetting the hierarchical nature of traditional society-God over kings, kings over nobles, nobles over commoners, men over women.

Interesting point... Although surely, even in same-sex relationships, some pattern of dominance and submission seeps in... and in heterosexual relationships, the official pattern is often not followed.

6 calochortus  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:33:05pm

re: #5 Larry A. Herzberg

Interesting point... Although surely, even in same-sex relationships, some pattern of dominance and submission seeps in... and in heterosexual relationships, the official pattern is often not followed.

The dynamic of each relationship is presumably unique to the people involved-but it is hard to enshrine an overall rule in law with a same sex couple. With a heterosexual marriage you can always pass a law saying women have to have their husband's permission to do something. With a same sex couple there's no way to do that.

7 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:36:38pm

re: #2 Larry A. Herzberg

Maybe so, but what about all the powerless people who oppose gay marriage (for instance, the majority of the black community in California). You can't fear losing power if you never had it...

plenty of people in the black community still oppose interracial marriage

8 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:36:53pm

My 2 bits: the mindset we're analyzing thinks that homosexuality is a problem that needs to be fixed. Gays need to hate themselves. Then they can stop being so gay, or something...

Gay marriage helps make homosexuality more acceptable, and I think that see that as the real problem. They see the stigma being attached to homosexuality fading away bit by bit, and they needs it. Their precious.

9 Big Joe  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:37:33pm

I don't get it. Gays marrying doesn't affect me or my marriage. The only thing I can think of is religious people fear gay marriage would bring the wrath of God upon the country or them for allowing it to happen.

10 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:37:46pm

re: #8 It's a cookbook!

My 2 bits: the mindset we're analyzing thinks that homosexuality is a problem that needs to be fixed. Gays need to hate themselves. Then they can stop being so gay, or something...

Gay marriage helps make homosexuality more acceptable, and I think that see that as the real problem. They see the stigma being attached to homosexuality fading away bit by bit, and they needs it. Their precious.

they want their backwards views and bigotry to be law, we want their backwards views and bigotry to be destroyed

simple as that ^_^

11 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:41:04pm

re: #10 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

they want their backwards views and bigotry to be law, we want their backwards views and bigotry to be destroyed

sim[ple as that ^_^

Pretty much. Because with this trajectory they soon won't be able to fire or discriminate against gays no matter what backwards state they live in. They won't be able to dick their son's or daughter's gay partner out of an inheritance.

*sadface*

12 Targetpractice  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:41:09pm

re: #8 It's a cookbook!

My 2 bits: the mindset we're analyzing thinks that homosexuality is a problem that needs to be fixed. Gays need to hate themselves. Then they can stop being so gay, or something...

Gay marriage helps make homosexuality more acceptable, and I think that see that as the real problem. They see the stigma being attached to homosexuality fading away bit by bit, and they needs it. Their precious.

That's generally been my impression, that they still believe that homosexuality is a mental illness, if not a moral perversion, that can be "cured" if society wishes it to be so. That it's already bad enough that the old stigmas towards homosexuality are gone, but would be even worse if homosexuality and homosexual couples were treated as no different than their heterosexual counterparts. That marriage, being a "sacred institution," would be meaningless if the applied to behavior that they consider a sin in the eyes of God.

13 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:41:51pm

also, there's the tribalism of conservatives who probably could care less in their soul about gays, (and may not even be religious at all) but will always oppose it because it's not "their" issue, softer bigotry, the "it's not convenient to admit any weakness in our platform and besides, we're straight! Not our problem!" thing

those guys are everywhere

14 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:42:20pm

re: #12 Targetpractice

That's generally been my impression, that they still believe that homosexuality is a mental illness, if not a moral perversion, that can be "cured" if society wishes it to be so. That it's already bad enough that the old stigmas towards homosexuality are gone, but would be even worse if homosexuality and homosexual couples were treated as no different than their heterosexual counterparts. That marriage, being a "sacred institution," would be meaningless if the would be applied to behavior that they consider a sin in the eyes of God.

Fortunately, that segment of the population is getting older.

Or as I like to think of it, time heals all wounds...

15 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:49:09pm

re: #13 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

also, there's the tribalism of conservatives who probably could care less in their soul about gays, (and may not even be religious at all) but will always oppose it because it's not "their" issue, softer bigotry, the "it's not convenient to admit any weakness in our platform and besides, we're straight! Not our problem!" thing

those guys are everywhere

I see what you did there.

16 funky chicken  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:50:46pm

re: #5 Larry A. Herzberg

Interesting point... Although surely, even in same-sex relationships, some pattern of dominance and submission seeps in... and in heterosexual relationships, the official pattern is often not followed.

In evangelical households it is.

I think it goes back to their weird obsession with thinking sex has to be procreative or it's dirty.

17 Larry A. Herzberg  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:52:02pm

re: #9 Purple Throbbing Standby

I don't get it. Gays marrying doesn't affect me or my marriage. The only thing I can think of is religious people fear gay marriage would bring the wrath of God upon the country or them for allowing it to happen.

The article cited in this post (by Head) considers and responds to this suggestion. He writes:

Again, a little perspective is in order. More than 3,000 children die every day of malaria; during the 1990s, an estimated 100 million children died of starvation; AIDS is sweeping the Global South; and the issue that will bring profound divine retribution is a change in marriage law?

18 Big Joe  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:56:26pm

re: #17 Larry A. Herzberg

That's assuming the religious right is rational.

19 funky chicken  Thu, May 17, 2012 10:00:02pm

Religious right folks are all about having the man rule his wife like Christ rules the church or whatever. They also tend to be pretty uncomfortable around those they see as odd or different, at least in my experience.

20 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 17, 2012 10:01:10pm

Pretty sure Jesus would have been a bottom, based on my reading of him...

21 freetoken  Thu, May 17, 2012 10:02:47pm

re: #16 funky chicken

In evangelical households it is.

I think it goes back to their weird obsession with thinking sex has to be procreative or it's dirty.

There's an even more fundamental theistic downgrading of sex than requiring it to be procreative; e.g., even in normal, heterosexual sexual intercourse the participants become ceremonial unclean:

Leviticus 15:18
New International Version (NIV)
When a man has sexual relations with a woman and there is an emission of semen, both of them must bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening.

Rooted deeply in human religions are the numerous individual and group feelings about sex; and in the root theism from which Judaism, Christianity, and Islam spring this connection is extensive.

22 Larry A. Herzberg  Thu, May 17, 2012 10:09:19pm

re: #18 Purple Throbbing Standby

Yes, I always begin with the charitable assumption that people are at least somewhat rational, and try to explain their views or their behavior on that assumption. After all attempts have failed, I admit defeat, and resort to non-rational psychological explanation.

Those who bother to argue against same-sex marriage clearly think of themselves as having reasons, and insofar as they offer them, they are at least nominally rational, if mistaken. The difference between mistaken people and irrational people is rather vast, since there is no hope of reasoning with the latter.

23 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 10:11:27pm

Many times men are conditioned to be repulsed by different behaviors. We're talking about a rather strict disciplined group of people here that were taught, conditioned, a certain set of rules. Sometimes the reaction is observed as a forceful act. In short a very focused collective with similar (some would say strict) morals and value.

The age old one is this. If you're not comfortable with your own sexuality, you tend to lash out against other sexualities.

24 Larry A. Herzberg  Thu, May 17, 2012 10:13:40pm

re: #21 freetoken

Leviticus 15:18
New International Version (NIV)
When a man has sexual relations with a woman and there is an emission of semen, both of them must bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening.

Hence those strange plumbing fixtures in French hotel rooms...

25 funky chicken  Thu, May 17, 2012 10:16:17pm

re: #21 freetoken

Hmmm. Some of that Old Testament stuff is cutting edge public health directives for the time. Washing up after sex probably does keep the cooties at bay. Unrefrigerated shellfish will kill you. Drinking animal blood is not a good idea. etc, etc I'm still baffled by the prohibition on mixed fiber clothing though. I don't think cotton/wool blends would be more flammable or more likely to become infested with scabies. Dunno.

Anyway, I'm off to bed. Good night :)

26 freetoken  Thu, May 17, 2012 10:29:13pm

One thing that strikes me about the premise given here:

Just why do many people - particularly religious conservatives - fear gay marriage, especially when they seem willing to at least tolerate the legality of gay behavior?

Is this: it's not just fear.

Trying to limit the dissection of what is transpiring in our society to just phobia may keep us from reaching the understanding we seek.

Besides phobia there is also animus. Just plain old hatred, or hostility.

Also, it ought to be noted that every modern nation state has laws (of some type) in regards to what we label the institution of marriage, but in only a few nations are explicitly homosexual marriages recognized. Thus the prohibition against gay marriage is not limited to those societies which are trying to be "Christian". It's a more universal phenomenon than that, and pigeonholing resistance to gay marriage to be a purely fundamentalist Christian (or even theistic) phenomenon doesn't address the bigger picture.

27 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 10:36:51pm

re: #26 freetoken

Human behavior preceded religion. Most of these yahoos wouldn't know Leviticus from a hole on the ground. The key isn't to see, for example, Leviticus causing behavior "X". We shouldn't become biblical literalists ourselves either. It's finding out why they wrote Leviticus.

28 freetoken  Thu, May 17, 2012 10:40:28pm

re: #27 Gus


Which is my whole point. What is at work here is more fundamental to human behavior than one Iron Age mountain peoples' religion.

29 Larry A. Herzberg  Thu, May 17, 2012 10:44:49pm

re: #26 freetoken

Besides phobia there is also animus. Just plain old hatred, or hostility.

Also, it ought to be noted that every modern nation state has laws (of some type) in regards to what we label the institution of marriage, but in only a few nations are explicitly homosexual marriages recognized. Thus the prohibition against gay marriage is not limited to those societies which are trying to be "Christian". It's a more universal phenomenon than that, and pigeonholing resistance to gay marriage to be a purely fundamentalist Christian (or even theistic) phenomenon doesn't address the bigger picture.

Both of these are good points. On the first point, emotions like fear can, it seems to me, be rational or irrational. Objectively rational fear is fear of that which is genuinely dangerous. Subjectively rational fear is fear of that which is at least believed to be dangerous. Hatred is trickier to analyze in these terms, since there seems to be no non-emotional property analogous to dangerousness on which hatred supervenes. Rational hatred, it seems, would be of what is objectively hateful, if there are any such things. I suppose hatred of hateful ideologies might be rational... but you see the difficulty here... It may be that no hatred is objectively rational, and merely subjectively rational hatred is non-explanatory (because it is circular), in which case we have to fall back on non-rational explanation...

On the second point, I agree that it's too simple to blame fundamentalist Christianity. Something deeper is going on.

30 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, May 17, 2012 11:04:55pm

I think the problem of the question is that it assumes that there is a rational answer. I don't think there is. At the core, it's just fear – but does that fear deserve to be called rational just because it carries a long tradition of bullshit justifications with it?

Let's just take them at their own words:


[Link: holybulliesandheadlessmonsters.blogspot.com...]
[Link: www.rightwingwatch.org...]
31 austin_blue  Thu, May 17, 2012 11:11:25pm

I've always wondered what religious conservatives, citing the Old Testament, think about when eating the Endless Shrimp Plate at Red Lobster.

32 austin_blue  Thu, May 17, 2012 11:14:33pm

re: #20 It's a cookbook!

Pretty sure Jesus would have been a bottom, based on my reading of him...

A little over the top.

33 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, May 17, 2012 11:16:52pm

Wingnut concepts playing into homophobia:

* "Demographic winter" – "Civilization as we know it is ending because white anglo-saxon people are not breeding enough. Gays are partially at fault."
* The deep connection between American Conservatism and Religious Fundamentalism – They just kind of need each other as political forces, which is why conservative arguments for marriage equality fall on deaf ears.
* I think Romantic Heretic in #1 said it best. The follow-up question to that, "why do even powerless people support this?" is a core problem of conservatism or maybe politics in general: People acting/deciding/voting against their own best interest/self-interest. Exploitations of democracy. I think in the case of the black community which suffers from poverty and consequently makes families suffer, there is a greater propensity, at least among the religious segment, to become susceptible to bullshit arguments about marriage equality further weakening family ties.

34 austin_blue  Thu, May 17, 2012 11:28:00pm

re: #33 (Unlike Some People)

Wingnut concepts playing into homophobia:

* "Demographic winter" – "Civilization as we know it is ending because white anglo-saxon people are not breeding enough. Gays are partially at fault."
* The deep connection between American Conservatism and Religious Fundamentalism – They just kind of need each other as political forces, which is why conservative arguments for marriage equality fall on deaf ears.
* I think Romantic Heretic in #1 said it best. The follow-up question to that, "why do even powerless people support this?" is a core problem of conservatism or maybe politics in general: People acting/deciding/voting against their own best interest/self-interest. Exploitations of democracy. I think in the case of the black community which suffers from poverty and consequently makes families suffer, there is a greater propensity, at least among the religious segment, to become susceptible to bullshit arguments about marriage equality further weakening family ties.

More than that. Gayness in urban Black and Hispanic communities is kept on the down low. HIV/AIDS infection as a percentage of the population is higher in urban Black and Hispanic communities and occurs because an individual that would be gay in a white background (more acceptable) is under stronger pressure to be straight, thus engaging more women in risky situations. The HIV/AIDS numbers are much higher among Black and Hispanic women in such situations, which really skews the numbers.

35 AK-47%  Thu, May 17, 2012 11:33:18pm

In a word:Dominionism.

lemme paste my favorite boiler-plate here, as it has been requested.

There are people who are convinced that Americas "exceptional" status is based on our favored relationship with God. And we honor this by having our laws reflect (their bigoted, funamentalist interpretation of) his Divine Laws.

If we allow such abdominations unto the Lord as gay marriage, abortion, contraception, legalized drugs, prostitution, gambling, progressive taxation, gun control laws, etc..., we are, to quote a leading fundamentlaist, "shaking our fist at God" and inviting his wrath.

So to these people, this is not just a matter of personal morals or sexual prefence, it is a matter of our nation's future.

36 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, May 17, 2012 11:40:08pm

re: #34 austin_blue

Oh yeah, there are lots of reasons, actual and pretend, that I haven't listed. I think a good heuristical approach to finding these is to look for correlating issues if one on its own doesn't make sense.

37 austin_blue  Thu, May 17, 2012 11:41:47pm

re: #35 Expand Your Ground

In a word:Dominionism.

lemme paste my favorite boiler-plate here, as it has been requested.

There are people who are convinced that Americas "exceptional" status is based on our favored relationship with God. And we honor this by having our laws reflect (their bigoted, fundamentalist interpretation of) his Divine Laws.

If we allow such abominations unto the Lord as gay marriage, abortion, contraception, legalized drugs, prostitution, gambling, progressive taxation, gun control laws, etc..., we are, to quote a leading fundamentalist, "shaking our fist at God" and inviting his wrath.

So to these people, this is not just a matter of personal morals or sexual preference, it is a matter of our nation's future.

Well, yeah. We are all aboard the Bullet Train to Gomorrah because we believe in Equal Protection Under The Law.

Danged old Constitution...

38 AK-47%  Thu, May 17, 2012 11:45:52pm

re: #37 austin_blue

Well, yeah. We are all aboard the Bullet Train to Gomorrah because we believe in Equal Protection Under The Law.

Danged old Constitution...

When Jesus handed us down the Constitution, it was clear to our Founding Fathers that gay marriage was not acceptable.

39 Kragar  Thu, May 17, 2012 11:49:05pm

re: #38 Expand Your Ground

When Jesus handed us down the Constitution, it was clear to our Founding Fathers that gay marriage was not acceptable.

No, I got the picture. He was totally cool with it.

40 austin_blue  Thu, May 17, 2012 11:49:25pm

re: #38 Expand Your Ground

When Jesus handed us down the Constitution, it was clear to our Founding Fathers that gay marriage was not acceptable.

Hence their specific prohibition of the concept! I mean, it's right there in.. er...derp..

41 austin_blue  Thu, May 17, 2012 11:50:30pm

re: #39 Kragar

No, I got the picture. He was totally cool with it.

Sweet ham and mothers! Where the fuck is that from?!?!

42 Kragar  Thu, May 17, 2012 11:51:42pm

re: #41 austin_blue

Sweet ham and mothers! Where the fuck is that from?!?!

History.

43 AK-47%  Fri, May 18, 2012 12:15:05am

re: #40 austin_blue

Hence their specific prohibition of the concept! I mean, it's right there in.. er...derp..

As Stephen Colbert pointed out: Jesus was so appalled at the concept of gay marriage that it left him speechless...

44 freetoken  Fri, May 18, 2012 12:42:42am

Getting back to the heart of the problem here - it's not Christian fundamentalism (at least at root.)

In India gay marriage is not recognized.

In China gay marriage is not recognized.

In Japan gay marriage is not recognized.

None of these countries can be understood as having much input from Christianity, or Judaism, in their laws on this matter.

Every culture dresses up its beliefs in the robes of whatever religion (or non-religion, in the case of secular states) is needed.

45 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, May 18, 2012 12:43:13am

re: #27 Gus

We shouldn't become biblical literalists ourselves either. It's finding out why they wrote Leviticus.

I think that's a red herring. Dietary recommendations against shellfish and sexual mores promoting a specific mix of exogamy and endogamy might have made sense in the context of a certain space and time for a certain people. But that's about as far as the argument goes. The rest, that which reaches into our day and time and asserts itself politically by refering back to those specific norms is just traditionalist supremacism. And we can put together, piece by piece, the historic puzzle of why that special brand of traditionalism had such traction to arrive where it has, but will that help politically?

46 AK-47%  Fri, May 18, 2012 12:59:04am

re: #45 (Unlike Some People)

There are some people who insist on taking their scriptures literally (with varying degrees of literal-ness, of course). These people are unassailable with any form of logical argument: they are in possession of The Divine Truth and will not be budged from it.

Others have come to see their scriptures as being divinely inspired, but nonetheless written by human beings in a particular historical and social context.

These are people who are capable of grasping the concept that our understanding of things like human sexuality, mental illness, (super)natural phenomena, withchcraft, etc., have changed since the times of The Prophets and are able to adapt their views accordingly.

Shame that they seem to be in the minority, or are simply drowned out by the noise generated by the fundamentlaist literalists.

47 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, May 18, 2012 1:12:56am

re: #44 freetoken

Getting back to the heart of the problem here - it's not Christian fundamentalism (at least at root.)

In India gay marriage is not recognized.

In China gay marriage is not recognized.

In Japan gay marriage is not recognized.

None of these countries can be understood as having much input from Christianity, or Judaism, in their laws on this matter.

Every culture dresses up its beliefs in the robes of whatever religion (or non-religion, in the case of secular states) is needed.

1) India, China, and Japan have very different histories, when it comes to social norms in respect to homosexuality. Especially China and Japan had, for long amounts of times, legal and socially accepted/promoted forms of homosexuality (akin to ancient Greece). But it's true that neither country has known legal same-sex marriage.

2) So why isn't SSM recognized in these countries? Maybe the better question is to why opposite-sex marriages have been codified in legal terms by societies to begin with: Why have these specific relationships received special legal recognition and social promotion? I think social conservatives actually are on to something when they state that the primary purpose of marriage is the creation of children.

3) Of course, the purpose is not of divine origin, nor is it the creation of children (that would happen with or without marriage) but the creation of a specific form of kinship that involves the biological parents and their child(ren) in a specific social structure recognized by the society at large. As a result, biological parents are expected to enter long-lasting relationships, and children are expected to be taken care of by their biological parents (and later are expected to take care of their parents when they are elderly), as opposed to society at large having to take care of all offspring/the elderly. I think similar social taboos (against polygamy or incest) can also be explained by what kinds of negative or positive effects it has for a society at large (in the case of polygamy, in patriarchic societies polygamy will result in a surplus of young men not being able to enter marriages, which is dangerous in societies that finds itself unable to effectively control these rogue males; in the case of incest, the taboo serves as a promoter of exogamy, which at the same time enlargens the society and also enlargens the gene pool). Also, I think social recognition of homosexuality (in ancient China, Japan, or Greece) can be explained in the same way.

4) So what changed from there to now? What is the specific circumstance not valid anymore but that during a specific time made opposite-sex marriage so preferable from a society-at-large point of view? I think the two biggest changes are a) the dissemination of birth control techniques among the general population, and b) a bigger technological shift away from agrarian societies towards economies in which children do not neccessarily mean an economic net gain for parents but can actually mean an economic net loss. This has resulted in the procreation function of marriage losing importance relative to other functional aspects of relationships and consequently making heterosexual relationships closer resemble homosexual relationships.

48 researchok  Fri, May 18, 2012 1:17:33am

Morning, all

49 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, May 18, 2012 1:18:41am

Come to think of it: Kinship forms in tribal communities, in which everybody was expected to take care of everybody, probably have had a longer history than kinship based on monogamous, opposite-sex marriage. So much for traditionalism.

50 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, May 18, 2012 1:28:57am

OT:

Judge Blocks Enforcement of National Defense Authorization Act

On Wednesday, Obama-appointed(!) Judge Katherine B. Forrest blocked the section of last year's National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) that purported to "reaffirm" the 2001 authorization to use military force against Al Qaeda. A group of activists and journalists had argued that the vague wording of the law could subject them to indefinite military detention because their work brings them into contact with people whom the US considers to be terrorists, and in doing so violated their First Amendment rights.

Forrest agreed with the plaintiffs that the relevant section of the law was "not merely an 'affirmation'" of the 2001 authorization for use of military force (AUMF). "Basic principles of legislative interpretation," she wrote, "require Congressional enactments to be given independent meaning"—judges can't simply assume a law does nothing. None of this brings the war on terror to a halt, mind you, because Forrest says there are "a variety of other statutes which can be utilized to detain those engaged in various levels of support of terrorists," so her injunction "does not divest the Government of its many other tools."

[Link: www.motherjones.com...]

Carl Levin Wants to Preserve Indefinite Detention of US Citizens As an Option

Reps. Adam Smith (D-Wash.) and Justin Amash's (R-Mich.) attempt to prevent suspected terrorists captured on US soil from being shunted into indefinite military detention is running into opposition from Senate hawks, including Armed Services Committee Chairman Carl Levin (D-Mich.):

"They don't have to exercise it, but I'm not so sure that they want the authority removed to arrest or to capture, because we're talking about war here — somebody who’s declared war against the United States, just because we capture them on U.S. soil," Levin said.

"We can hold them on U.S. soil, but I don't think we want to eliminate the authority of the Executive Branch to hold someone who’s declared war on the United States as an enemy combatant," he said.

Left unexplained is why mandatory military detention is needed at all. Umar Abdulmutallab, who inspired the mandatory military custody provision after he set himself on fire trying to blow up a plane, would not have been granted bail in a federal court. If the evidence is that strong that someone is a terrorist, there's no need to put them in military custody. Levin fails to offer even a single argument for why military custody would be preferable to civilian custody. Instead, his argument is a moral one: We're at war with these people, so we'll treat them like warriors.

[Link: www.motherjones.com...]

Kudos to Levin for being a hawk on Wall Street reform, but (and this is the kindest way for me to put it) I think he is very seriously misguided on his national security policies.

51 freetoken  Fri, May 18, 2012 1:35:24am

re: #49 (Unlike Some People)

And here is where the invention of "civilization" comes into play.

Only with settled communities and agriculture did private property rise individuals to the status of land owners, and thus controllers of the civilization.

Marriage customs all seem to incorporate some sense of inheritance. The children are intended to inherit property and rights and status from their parents. It is this concept of the control being passed down from generation to generation which is enshrined in marriage laws.

In some societies a marriage was nothing more than a woman being treated as property, passing from the father to the husband.

Since homosexual relationships cannot bear children, that is, inheritors, a homosexual marriage will not be able to continue on this idea of property and rights being passed from generation to generation.

Thus, I propose the big question with homosexual marriage begs the question of why we even have marriage laws in the first place. With the modern legal system and the enshrinement of other methods of inheritance (legal instruments such as last wills and testaments), do we need to have the state continue to set aside a special legal condition called "married"? Could not any couple (or more) create covenants that are registered publicly to deal with all these matters, and not try to label it "marriage"?

And yes, this brings up issues like polygamy. Frankly, I don't have a strong argument to make against, say, Mormons who still want to practice it. Now, it may be considered unfair in certain cases (such as Mormonism, where the patriarchy makes sure that the man has all the control over multiple women), but in theory there isn't a strong case to be made against the practice in general.

52 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, May 18, 2012 1:49:47am

re: #51 freetoken

Since homosexual relationships cannot bear children, that is, inheritors, a homosexual marriage will not be able to continue on this idea of property and rights being passed from generation to generation.

This is a false conclusion, though (and slightly false premises): Of course property rights can be passed down to adopted children. Infertile heterosexual couples have been doing this for a long time, even in the highest ranks of society. Also, lesbian couples can very well bear children, even if they need external "help".

It is, by the way, no surprise that fertility has becoming the battle cry of many social movements in modern times (as opposed to it being an issue mainly of the church), chiefly among them eugenics. But that is another issue.

Thus, I propose the big question with homosexual marriage begs the question of why we even have marriage laws in the first place. With the modern legal system and the enshrinement of other methods of inheritance (legal instruments such as last wills and testaments), do we need to have the state continue to set aside a special legal condition called "married"? Could not any couple (or more) create covenants that are registered publicly to deal with all these matters, and not try to label it "marriage"?

That kind of looks a lot like Dark Falcon's argument to make all marriages into civil unions. Not likely.

And yes, this brings up issues like polygamy. Frankly, I don't have a strong argument to make against, say, Mormons who still want to practice it. Now, it may be considered unfair in certain cases (such as Mormonism, where the patriarchy makes sure that the man has all the control over multiple women), but in theory there isn't a strong case to be made against the practice in general.

The case against polygamy is either the case for monogamy (and as such, against polygamy in general), or it is the case for polyandry (and as such, against polygamy in the wider context of patriarchal supremacy).

53 freetoken  Fri, May 18, 2012 2:23:19am

re: #52 (Unlike Some People)

But adoption, as an institution, would only have come after the idea of property and inheritance had been established.

No doubt in a hunter gather society individuals would have been "adopted" into the group now and again. However, in our modern sense "adoption" comes after we had instituted laws of life in general.

My point was merely historical in nature, not a proscription.

54 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, May 18, 2012 2:34:44am

re: #53 freetoken

But adoption, as an institution, would only have come after the idea of property and inheritance had been established.

Let's establish terms: Inheritance comes much, much earlier than property. Inheritance can be inheritance of anything, even things that are not property, like political positions of rulership. It's not that far of a stretch to say that the idea of a rulership that is both exclusive and traditional (as in: ruling families within a tribe) is coincidental to the idea of inheritance.

No doubt in a hunter gather society individuals would have been "adopted" into the group now and again.

Not only into the group (the tribe in the example above), but into the smaller and more exclusive sub-group of rulers (the ruling family in the example above), so the adopted person might have already belonged to the group but not to the ruling sub-group yet. As a historical example for this, see adoptions in ancient Rome.

However, in our modern sense "adoption" comes after we had instituted laws of life in general.

I don't know what this means.

55 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 3:28:44am

I like the wine analogy.

And as a continuation of it I have 2 words: free market. ;)

56 AK-47%  Fri, May 18, 2012 3:29:30am

Another personal theory: sour grapes.

My ex-first-ever-girlfriend, Kathleen Sweeney, is an assistant Attorney General in Arizona and one of the leading people behind drafting anti gay-marriage legislation in that state.

I am certain that if I had just married her way back then, she would have a diffeent opinion about marriage in general (she is still single AFAIK)

57 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, May 18, 2012 3:41:38am

re: #56 Expand Your Ground

That's kinda like argument about "what if Hitler had been accepted into art school?". I don't think a whole lot would have changed.

58 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 3:52:41am

Good Morning reprobates!

59 AK-47%  Fri, May 18, 2012 3:54:41am

re: #57 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)

That's kinda like argument about "what if Hitler had been accepted into art school?". I don't think a whole lot would have changed.

Just a personal theory. She was bent on marrying me, I rejected her and no man has been good enough for her ever since...

And if she were my wife, I would tell her to stop wasting her time on crap like that and worry about something important...

60 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 4:12:13am

re: #59 Expand Your Ground

Just a personal theory. She was bent on marrying me, I rejected her and no man has been good enough for her ever since...

And if she were my wife, I would tell her to stop wasting her time on crap like that and worry about something important...

So this whole mess is because of you!/

62 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 4:17:22am

Why do conservatives fear gay marriage? For the same reason they fear yellow firetrucks and New Coke. Fear is the defining characteristic that identifies them as them conservatives.

'Morning, all.

63 AK-47%  Fri, May 18, 2012 4:17:26am

re: #60 May Day! May Day!

So this whole mess is because of you!/

And I feel bad about it to this day...

64 AK-47%  Fri, May 18, 2012 4:18:04am

re: #62 Decatur Deb

Why do conservatives fear gay marriage? For the same reason they fear yellow firetrucks and New Coke. Fear is the defining characteristic that identifies them as them conservatives.

'Morning, all.

The three pillars of morality: guilt, fear and shame. Without them, no person can lead a moral life.

/

65 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, May 18, 2012 4:23:04am

re: #62 Decatur Deb

But there are conservative arguments for same-sex marriage (which, curiously, sound very liberal – maybe due to the special nature of the American brand of conservatism):

“As people who promote personal responsibility, family values, commitment and stability, and emphasize freedom and limited government we have to recognize that freedom means freedom for everyone. This includes the freedom to decide how you live and to enter into relationships of your choosing, the freedom to live without excessive interference of the regulatory force of government.

So obviously the vector of the "eternal idea" of conservatism isn't enough to explain the current aversion.

PS: Paris in the the spring.

66 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 4:28:39am

re: #65 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)

But there are conservative arguments for same-sex marriage:

So obviously the vector of the "eternal idea" of conservatism isn't enough to explain the current aversion.

PS: Paris in the the spring.

Good. As they lose more of their fear, and they can, they will become liberals.

Are you there now? Spent only a (good) 3-day weekend once.

67 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, May 18, 2012 4:30:24am

re: #66 Decatur Deb

Never been to Paris, or France for that matter. Indeed, the numbers of foreign countries I have visited is pathetically small.

68 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 4:31:18am

re: #66 Decatur Deb

Good. As they lose more of their fear, and they can, they will become liberals.

Are you there now? Spent only a (good) 3-day weekend once.

I've just returned yesterday. (That aside, Google the phrase ;)

69 Shropshire_Slasher  Fri, May 18, 2012 4:36:26am

If you are squeamish don't click on the link
[Link: www.timesunion.com...]
That pic of the tic gives me the willies. I didn't know you could suffer partial paralysis from a dog tick (rarely). Ok I don't know a lot, but I'm getting better. Good Morning all, it's Friday!

70 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 4:37:58am

re: #67 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)

Never been to Paris, or France for that matter. Indeed, the numbers of foreign countries I have visited is pathetically small.

I claim a bunch, but I have to cheat. Spent about 10 minutes in North Korea. I did get a passport stamped in the Republic of the Marshall Islands one night, and I've been to Ireland twice, sitting on a runway at 4 AM. Didn't get to Portugal, but my dog did. He almost got to Sicily without me, because the Air Force mis-tagged him. Once had a job that would take me to half the countries in Africa, but funding cuts short-circuited it after I got all the shots.

71 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 4:39:41am

re: #70 Decatur Deb

Your dog been places!

72 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 4:40:34am

It's pretty cliche, but I think Paris is the most beautiful city as far as European cities go.

73 AK-47%  Fri, May 18, 2012 4:42:50am

re: #65 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)

See my earlier rant on Dominionism. This has no room for tolerating private and personal activity that they see as an offense unto God.

The argument you posted is based on old-school political conservatism, which is not identical with religious conservativism.

74 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 4:44:57am

re: #72 May Day! May Day!

It's pretty cliche, but I think Paris is the most beautiful city as far as European cities go.

Venice, for me, but it's just not much like other cites. I've heard that parts of Leningrad are like it.

75 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 4:46:33am

re: #74 Decatur Deb

Venice, for me, but it's just not much like other cites. I've heard that parts of Leningrad are like it.

Yes, the city of my birth is pretty too, at least the center ;)

76 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 4:48:42am

re: #75 May Day! May Day!

Yes, the city of my birth is pretty too, at least the center ;)

You're from there? I've got a book of fantastic sketches by an autisitic American kid--looking for it now.

77 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 4:51:17am

re: #76 Decatur Deb

You're from there? I've got a book of fantastic sketches by an autisitic American kid--looking for it now.

I didn't live there, aside for a short time after my birth, which doesn't count, but used to visit pretty regularly.

78 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, May 18, 2012 4:52:29am

re: #73 Expand Your Ground

The argument you posted is based on old-school political conservatism, which is not identical with religious conservativism.

For that, see my #33:

* The deep connection between American Conservatism and Religious Fundamentalism – They just kind of need each other as political forces, which is why conservative arguments for marriage equality fall on deaf ears.

79 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 4:58:14am

re: #77 May Day! May Day!

I didn't live there, aside for a short time after my birth, which doesn't count, but used to visit pretty regularly.

Are you old enough to remember anything of post-war reconstruction? It bothers me a little that Leningrad and Stalingrad have reverted to their pre-Soviet names. Those cities earned a place in history for their names

80 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:01:39am

re: #79 Decatur Deb

Are you old enough to remember anything of post-war reconstruction?

Oh no.

It bothers me a little that Leningrad and Stalingrad have reverted to their pre-Soviet names. Those cities earned a place in history for their names

It would bother me if Stalingrad had not been renamed in 1961.

81 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:03:22am

re: #80 May Day! May Day!

Oh no.

It would bother me if Stalingrad had not been renamed in 1961.

Good argument for that, but in time we would have forgotten the tyrant and remembered the heroism.

82 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:04:36am

In the discovery pdf - [Link: msnbcmedia.msn.com...] - there is an FBI report about the examination of the "fucking" phrase that states the signal is too weak to interpret. The parallel prosecutors' investigation, as we know, interpreted it as punks.

83 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:04:44am

re: #81 Decatur Deb

Good argument for that, but in time we would have forgotten the tyrant and remembered the heroism.

Good point. We would have but would they? I wouldn't want to tell people I lived somewhere named after Stalin.

84 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:05:17am

re: #81 Decatur Deb

Good argument for that, but in time we would have forgotten the tyrant and remembered the heroism.

Not much different than leaving some "Hitlerburg" intact.

85 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:05:41am

re: #84 May Day! May Day!

Not much different than leaving some "Hitlerburg" intact.

Is that in Ohio?

86 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:08:31am

Morning Lizardim. Happy Friday from the hot and dry wild north country. Certainly an unusual weather pattern for us, given that heat usually generates a significant amount of humidity. In any event, it's supposed to be a beautiful summery day, which I plan to enjoy from the comfort of my air-conditioned home.

As to the topic of this thread (not necessarily the topic at hand), I would venture to say that at least among the religious right, many of them honestly do believe that allowing gays to marry will set up a slippery slope of depravity by giving approval to that which they believe is immoral. Far-right religious conservatives, of course, are known for their desire to legislate by the Bible, and they see this "war on marriage" as yet another attempt to eliminate Christian influence, such as it is, from American culture. Now, of course, it need not be said that they are entirely misguided, as their premises are all completely invalid; American culture is not fundamentally Christian (though it has certainly acquired many elements thereof), and the "war on marriage" is in reality just an attempt to secure equal rights for everyone, which should be a noble goal. Nevertheless, they feel that they are being marginalized by The Man, and this produces the visceral gut reaction against the progressive policies that we see from leading American religious figures.

87 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:08:58am

re: #85 RogueOne

Is that in Ohio?

I'd have guessed northern New Jersey.

88 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:10:23am

I'm pretty indifferent about the Petersburg-Leningrad thing though. I mean, surely Peter didn't cause less deaths than Lenin, and both were quite within the bounds set by other rulers of their respective periods.

89 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:10:35am

I was only joking but it turns out there is a Hitler Road in Ohio. How would you like to have to put that address on your mail? Circleville OH has not just one but two Hitler roads!
[Link: maps.google.com...]

90 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:10:55am

re: #89 RogueOne

I was only joking but it turns out there is a Hitler Road in Ohio. How would you like to have to put that address on your mail? Circleville OH has not just one but two Hitler roads!
[Link: maps.google.com...]

wut

91 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:13:26am

Went to school with a kid named 'Adolf'. We were born in 1944.

92 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:14:56am

re: #89 RogueOne
This is from German wiki, without a parallel in English:

Einer der Gründerväter der Stadt war ein George W. Hitler (1845–?), dessen Vorfahren in der Mitte des 18. Jahrhunderts in die USA einwanderten. Von einer Verwandtschaft mit Adolf Hitler ist nichts bekannt. Die Nachfahren von George W. Hitler bildeten eine wichtige Familie am Ort. Nach der Familie wurden drei Straßen (Hitler No. 1 Road, Hitler No. 2 Road und Huber-Hitler Road) und ein Friedhof (Hitler-Ludwig Cemetery) benannt, die auch heute noch so heißen.[3]

93 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:15:25am
George W. Hitler

What a name! ///

94 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:16:29am

re: #93 May Day! May Day!

What a name! ///

Image: bummerbirthmark.jpg

95 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:16:34am

re: #92 May Day! May Day!

See? See?! Bushitler is a real person!!!1!1one

96 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:16:47am

re: #94 Decatur Deb

Image: bummerbirthmark.jpg

Nein!

97 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:18:29am

re: #96 May Day! May Day!

Nein!

Again:

Image: bummer+of+a+birthmark.jpg

98 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:18:47am

re: #97 Decatur Deb

Again:

Image: bummer+of+a+birthmark.jpg

Quoth the server, 404.

99 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:19:51am

re: #97 Decatur Deb

Again:

Image: bummer+of+a+birthmark.jpg

You can't link blogspot images.

100 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:19:56am

re: #98 thedopefishlives

Quoth the server, 404.

Tried two sources. Larson Far side cartoon--his stuff is hard to find, might be protected.

101 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:20:31am

Just google image the filename.

102 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:21:10am

re: #101 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)

Just google image the filename.

Thanks--the moment has pretty well passed.

103 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:23:38am

I'm gonna make them get the punchline and laugh about it, and if it's the last thing I'll do!

104 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:26:12am

re: #103 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)

I'm gonna make them get the punchline and laugh about it

... or else!/

105 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:28:10am
106 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:28:36am

There is also a lengthy report about what happened to the phone.

107 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:36:31am

We talked about this case a year ago. She's still in jail waiting for a trial....

Indianapolis mom in rat poison feticide case could be freed from jail (freed on bond)
[Link: www.indystar.com...]

INDIANAPOLIS — An Indianapolis woman charged with murder and feticide for eating rat poison while pregnant could soon be released from jail.

Marion County Superior Court Judge Sheila Carlisle was set to hold a bond hearing today in Indianapolis for 35-year-old Bei Bei Shuai. She's been in jail since being charged in March 2011.

Carlisle refused to allow Shuai to be released from jail last June, but the Indiana Court of Appeals later ordered her to set bond for the Chinese immigrant. The Indiana Supreme Court last week allowed the appeals court ruling to stand. However, both higher courts declined to dismiss the charges against Shuai.

Bond is extremely rare in murder cases.

108 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:41:17am

re: #107 RogueOne

she was eight months pregnant.

Is there a diff between this and feeding poison to a newborn infant?

109 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:44:46am

re: #108 May Day! May Day!

Is there a diff between this and feeding poison to a newborn infant?

Was it a DIY abortion or a suicide attempt? Makes a difference in her mental health/threat assessment.

110 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:45:01am

re: #108 May Day! May Day!

Yes: birth.

Slippery slope circumstance: A mother is chain-smoking throughout being pregnant, and has a miscarriage.

111 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:46:47am

re: #109 Decatur Deb

Was it a DIY abortion or a suicide attempt? Makes a difference in her mental health/threat assessment.

Granted. But she survived, and in theory I have no problem with investigating and potentially trying her.

112 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:47:42am

re: #110 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)

Yes: birth.

What's the difference between killing a baby 5 minutes before and after the birth?

113 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:48:09am

re: #108 May Day! May Day!

IMO? Just intent. I'm less sure about what she should be charged with, if at all. She's charged with Murder and Feticide. I think it should be one or the other, can't be both.

114 Swampwitch  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:48:30am

Do you people think this is a joke? Iowa legalized same-sex marriage in 2009.
A year and a half later my husband and I were no longer married. Coincidence?

Oh wait. He died.

Never mind.

115 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:49:02am

re: #111 May Day! May Day!

Granted. But she survived, and in theory I have no problem with investigating and potentially trying her.

Not against a trial, after a mental determination. Don't think holding her for a year was necessarily a good use of a cell.

116 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:49:38am

re: #109 Decatur Deb

Was it a DIY abortion or a suicide attempt? Makes a difference in her mental health/threat assessment.

Her intent, which I think everyone including the prosecutor believes, was suicide. She was going through a break-up and decided to end it all.

117 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:49:40am

re: #112 May Day! May Day!

What's the difference between killing a baby 5 minutes before and after the birth?

Depending on the circumstances: several decades in prison.

118 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:50:29am

re: #110 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)

Yes: birth.

Slippery slope circumstance: A mother is chain-smoking throughout being pregnant, and has a miscarriage.

Maternity Battle-Dress Uniform:

Image: armymaternity.jpg

119 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:53:26am

re: #118 Decatur Deb

Maternity Battle-Dress Uniform:

Image: armymaternity.jpg

Army Birth Control
[Link: armywife.squarespace.com...]

120 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:54:31am

re: #119 RogueOne

Must be 404 day.

121 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:55:13am

I actually view this from a different tack.

The same arguments are being trotted out against same sex marriage that were trotted out about interracial marriage, and before that voting rights for women, and before that ending chattel slavery, and before that voting right for non-propertied males. (Well, maybe exaggerating a bit with the last one.)

There is something deeper, but in that case it's social conservative resistence to eroding their perceived superior status in the social hierarchy. The resistence is couched and hidden in terms of religious law, custom, and fear.

122 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:55:33am

re: #120 Decatur Deb

Really? Shows up on mine. Took 3 tries to find a pic that would show up.

123 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:56:38am

re: #122 RogueOne

Really? Shows up on mine. Took 3 tries to find a pic that would show up.

Got a script that said:

The page /storage/Military_Birth_Control_Glasses.jpg could not be located on this website.

124 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:57:47am

re: #120 Decatur Deb

[Link: cdn.c.photoshelter.com...]

I had not heard of them being called RPG's, that's funny!

125 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:57:53am

re: #117 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)

Depending on the circumstances: several decades in prison.

Which is absurd, no? There is no substantive difference in the act.

If we value a person (even the "empty" one, at the very beginning of their personhood), then we can't ignore brain development, and in light of this the event of birth is pretty aribtrary.

Granted, every cut-off line for elective abortion will contain arbitrariness, but if we have to cut off somewhere, without also being anti-abortion fanatics thinking that personhood begins at conception, the cut-off line should correspond, if vaguely, to some stage in brain development (like formation of cerebral cortex), and will likely be earlier than birth.

Just my opinion, of course. I just don't see the birth criterion as more coherent than others.

126 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:59:23am

re: #125 May Day! May Day!

My opinion, which isn't very popular, is that the fetus stops being a parasite when it's able to survive on its own. I think 8 months would qualify.

127 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 5:59:35am

re: #124 RogueOne

[Link: cdn.c.photoshelter.com...]

I had not heard of them being called RPG's, that's funny!

Got it that time. They look like real 'nerd chic'. Could start a fad.

128 Patricia Kayden  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:02:09am

I think that conservatives are horrified by gay sex and thus demonize gays. Everytime I read a post on Joe My God where he presents the views of Rightwingers, it's always them screaming about how gay sex is disgusting, vile, leads to sex with children/animals, etc.

For some reason, it appears that conservatives conflate homosexuals with sex. Strange, because they don't do the same thing with heterosexuals.

129 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:03:28am

re: #126 RogueOne

My opinion, which isn't very popular, is that the fetus stops being a parasite when it's able to survive on its own. I think 8 months would qualify.

Well, viability is a SCOTUS criterion. 7-month babies can survive. Viability criterion is an improvement over birth, though still not quite philosophically satisfactory, esp. as technology will probably make viability "recede" earlier and earlier.

130 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:03:58am

Has Nvy ever returned from his trip?

Vietnam bus plunges off bridge into river; 34 dead
[Link: www.stltoday.com...]

131 BadgerB  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:05:33am

Its not uncommon to hear politicians running for office engage in a sort of bidding contests about sentence lengths to prove who is tougher on crime. If your opponent says they will make littering a 3 month offense, then you must be stronger on crime if you say it should be a 3 year offense.

I think a good part of the vehemence we see in the anti-gay ranks is a form of the same behavior. I realize this isn't very respectful to the many committed Christens who don't engage in it but this style of 'bathroom mirror worship" creates the same cycles of increasing condemnations. The idea is that if its Christen to not believe in same-sex relationships, then I must be be a better Christen if I say it out loud, and the louder I say it the more real a Christen I become (or feel like I become). In the end you get a competition between people trying to prove who is more Christen by seeing who can be the most over-the-top unreasonably against it.

132 Interesting Times  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:08:47am
133 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:09:46am

re: #129 May Day! May Day!

Well, viability is a SCOTUS criterion. 7-month babies can survive. Viability criterion is an improvement over birth, though still not quite philosophically satisfactory, esp. as technology will probably make viability "recede" earlier and earlier.

Don't doubt that she broke existing law. The question is whether putting her in a cage for a couple decades is going to reduce her chances of repeating or to deter imitation. My best guess is that it won't. Probably a medical case, with a good likelihood of continuing down the path of suicide.

134 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:11:19am

re: #133 Decatur Deb

Don't doubt that she broke existing law. The question is whether putting here in a cage for a couple decades is going to reduce her chances of repeating or deter imitation. My best guess is that it won't. Probably a medical case, with a good likelihood of continuing down the path of suicide.

Sure, if she has mental problems she needs treatment first of all.

135 Obdicut  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:21:06am

re: #122 RogueOne

Really? Shows up on mine. Took 3 tries to find a pic that would show up.

Take off everything after the .jpg in the URL and it'll work.

Image: Military_Birth_Control_Glasses.jpg

136 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:21:18am

alinuxguru is a weird one.

137 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:21:38am

It's been a good news-bad news day. My trip to Greenville just got cancelled and I've already signed a contract and started fabrication. OTOH, I did get a big restaurant job yesterday that amounts to almost 20% of my annual budget and probably the biggest job I'm comfortable doing.

138 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:21:52am

re: #136 May Day! May Day!

alinuxguru is a weird one.

Penguinista with a mission.

139 Obdicut  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:21:53am

re: #131 BadgerB

Why do you spell Christian as Christen? Is there a meaning I'm missing?

140 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:21:53am

re: #135 Obdicut

Take off everything after the .jpg in the URL and it'll work.

Image: Military_Birth_Control_Glasses.jpg

nope

141 Obdicut  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:22:06am

re: #140 May Day! May Day!

Works for me.

142 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:22:16am

re: #135 Obdicut

Take off everything after the .jpg in the URL and it'll work.

Image: Military_Birth_Control_Glasses.jpg

snort. Now it's not working for me but probably for everyone else.

143 Obdicut  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:22:56am

re: #142 RogueOne

Something funky is afoot.

144 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:23:03am

re: #138 Decatur Deb

Penguinista with a mission.

The problem is, I'm not quite sure what the mission is. (S)he just dinged a bunch of pretty normal comments in the cosmic x page.

145 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:23:22am

re: #143 Obdicut

Something funky is afoot.

Army censorship is sneaky.

146 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:24:16am

re: #143 Obdicut

Something funky is afoot.

Oh, they just forbid linking from somewhere. I cut&pasted URL and it worked

147 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:24:53am

re: #144 May Day! May Day!

The problem is, I'm not quite sure what the mission is. (S)he just dinged a bunch of pretty normal comments in the cosmic x page.

It's their usual morning strafing run. Must satisfy some need.

148 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:25:53am

Peaceful protest watch...
Police: NATO protesters arrested in house raid that produced Molotov cocktails

Chicago police arrested nine individuals in a Bridgeport house raid Wednesday night where they said to have found Molotov cocktails.

Lawyers for the nine individuals said police confiscated home brewing equipment, not Molotov cocktails.

A spokesperson for Occupy Chicago said the individuals are not from Chicago and are here to protest the NATO summit. They were being housed by Occupy Chicago members.

149 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:27:12am

re: #148 Killgore Trout

Peaceful protest watch...
Police: NATO protesters arrested in house raid that produced Molotov cocktails

If your homebrew tastes like a molotov cocktail, you're doing it wrong.

150 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:27:46am

GOOGLE IMAGE THE DAMN FILENAME AND LAUGH, DAMMIT!

151 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:28:22am

re: #148 Killgore Trout

Peaceful protest watch...
Police: NATO protesters arrested in house raid that produced Molotov cocktails

Idiots. That's still criminal conspiracy. You housed them. They made/brought explosive devices there. Your ass is grass.

152 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:30:02am

re: #149 Decatur Deb

If your homebrew tastes like a molotov cocktail, you're doing it wrong.

Ah, I love the smell of gasoline in the morning. Smells like... Prison time.

153 Interesting Times  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:30:45am
154 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:31:51am

re: #142 RogueOne

snort. Now it's not working for me but probably for everyone else.

Secret long term US government strategy.

Spread US culture and especially old TV re-runs all over the world. Then invade while wearing those glasses. US Army underestimated due to everyone thinking that it's simply an invasion of Erkels.
/

155 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:31:59am

re: #152 thedopefishlives

Ah, I love the smell of gasoline in the morning. Smells like... Prison time.

If it's Black Bloc, screw'em. On the other hand the Chicago cops have no credibility with me on handling protests.

156 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:32:25am

re: #149 Decatur Deb

If your homebrew tastes like a molotov cocktail, you're doing it wrong.

I don't know. My buddy just brought back some Dandelion Wine his uncle brews in Arkansas and it tastes pretty close to gasoline. It's nasty stuff.

157 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:33:24am

re: #155 Decatur Deb

If it's Black Bloc, screw'em. On the other hand the Chicago cops have no credibility with me on handling protests.

Chicago cops have very little credibility to begin with. Anyone who's ever lived in the Chicagoland area knows that the Chicago PD is one of the worst when it comes to corruption and brutality.

158 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:34:03am

re: #156 RogueOne

I don't know. My buddy just brought back some Dandelion Wine his uncle brews in Arkansas and it tastes pretty close to gasoline. It's nasty stuff.

Should have flushed the John Deere's tank before running his must.

159 BadgerB  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:34:06am

re: #139 Obdicut

BadgerB - Why do you spell Christian as Christen? Is there a meaning I'm missing?

Because I was rushing to get it in and messed it up, no offense intended.
No way to go back and fix it I guess.

160 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:34:28am

re: #155 Decatur Deb

If it's Black Bloc, screw'em. On the other hand the Chicago cops have no credibility with me on handling protests.

Exactly my first thought. I don't see anywhere in the stories about how they happened to come across the 9 people they arrested. I'd like to know more.

161 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:34:46am

I think it's a combination of fear of divine retribution and same-sex marriage making opposite-sex marriage less manly.

Now for some humor on the Christian front. Actress?

162 Obdicut  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:36:23am

re: #159 BadgerB

Because I was rushing to get it in and messed it up, no offense intended.
No way to go back and fix it I guess.

Oh, no offense at all-- I'm not Christian, Christen, Xtian, or Chrissy-ty-'en. I was just wondering if it had some special meaning.

163 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:36:54am
164 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:38:19am

re: #151 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Idiots. That's still criminal conspiracy. You housed them. They made/brought explosive devices there. Your ass is grass.

It's also probably a sign that the police and FBI have infiltrated the protesters. These idiots are being watched pretty carefully.

165 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:39:22am

re: #148 Killgore Trout

Peaceful protest watch...
Police: NATO protesters arrested in house raid that produced Molotov cocktails

A little too convenient??

166 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:40:59am

re: #165 ggt

A little too convenient??

Proably not. We'll know more this afternoon when they appear in court. But OWS protesters have been using Molotov cocktails for a while now so it wouldn't be surprising.

167 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:42:28am

I'm not sure I understand the point behind the NATO protests.

168 AK-47%  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:43:06am

re: #74 Decatur Deb

Venice, for me, but it's just not much like other cites. I've heard that parts of Leningrad are like it.

Yes, very similar in appearance, just not regarding the weather...

169 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:43:19am

IPO today

I don't know if there is enough.

170 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:43:29am

re: #157 thedopefishlives

Chicago cops have very little credibility to begin with. Anyone who's ever lived in the Chicagoland area knows that the Chicago PD is one of the worst when it comes to corruption and brutality.


CHICAGO COPS
(Bob Gibson and Bob/Hamilton Camp)

I'm an old Chicago copper and that's just what I am.
For these investigations I do not give a damn.
I'll tell all those do-gooders just where they all can go,
'Cause I don't want no changes made. I like the status quo.

I'm prompt, alert, and efficient when on the outer drive.
I haven't made a single pinch since 1935.
I'm courteous to the speeders. I praise them for their skill.
And I always have the proper change for a twenty-dollar bill.

I give out parking tickets when crime is on the loose,
But we ain't got no criminals in our old calaboose.
With a storm of scandals raging, it surely is a shame,
But we won't let Ben Adamowski break up our poker game.

I hope this trouble's over soon and we can settle down,
And Christmas comes again, for cops, each day in old Chi-town.
Or else, I'll pack my hat and gun and northward I'll set sail,
For all the cops retire young way up in Summerdale.

Well, now my story's over and I have had my say.
Let's separate the crooks from cops, let the chips fall where they may.
Now you've heard my story and you know that I am right,
And if God and the cops be willin', I'll be back tomorrow night.

171 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:43:41am

re: #167 RogueOne

I'm not sure I understand the point behind the NATO protests.

Anything Obama?

172 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:44:55am

Here's a longer version from the Tribune:

Lawyers for NATO protesters allege improper arrests
[Link: articles.chicagotribune.com...]

A spokesman for the National Lawyers Guild, which represents protesters, said lawyers were speaking with some of those detained at a police facility at 3340 W. Fillmore St. on the West Side.

The Chicago Police Department has basically disappeared as many as eight activists,” said Kris Hermes, a spokesman for the National Lawyers Guild, adding “There’s absolutely no evidence of wrongdoing.”

I think Kris might be confused about what "disappeared" means...

173 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:45:08am

re: #167 RogueOne

I'm not sure I understand the point behind the NATO protests.

Originally the protests were more focused towards the G20 meeting but it was moved to Camp David. The Nato summit was second choice. NATO are warmongers and Western Imperialists anyways so I guess it works.

174 AK-47%  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:45:10am

re: #84 May Day! May Day!

Not much different than leaving some "Hitlerburg" intact.

There is a town in Northern Germany named "Hilter". I assume they did not have enough money to rename everything after the war, so they just switched the two middle letters...

175 Obdicut  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:49:29am

re: #170 Decatur Deb

A Chicago mounted policeman saved my life after I got out of a cab in the middle of winter because the couple I was with were trying to kill each other. I was drunk and lost and dressed for the clubs and not the streets and would have probably died of hypothermia if he hadn't come along to grab me and ride me back to the station.

Another Chicago cop kicked in the door to my best friend's apartment, smashed up a bunch of furniture, and left without leaving any information. It took my friend two months to track down what the fuck had happened. He filed a police report, the cops came out and 'investigated' and it was only when a neighbor let him know that it was a cop who did the smashing in the first place that he found out. The cop had been serving a warrant on a completely wrong address.

It took my friend more than a year to be compensated for the damage, and the amount was about a third of what the actual costs to him were-- they paid for parts but not labor, basically.

Another Chicago cop sexually molested my friend Tex when arresting her for defending herself against a guy sexually molesting her. That one was classic. She made a complaint, nothing came of it because no witnesses, etc. The guy has had a bunch of complaints on him but since he was a careful fuckhead nothing ever came of it.

And then there's just all my black friends in Chicago who've gotten stopped and frisked all their lives for no actual cause other than being black.

176 acacia  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:50:24am

Excellent topic. I can't answer the question and actually have mixed feelings on the subject myself. One thought to throw out there is that I think the religious conservatives realize that they are too late to the table because of how marriage and sexual mores have changed over the last 25-30 years even without considering gay marriage. With so many children born out of wedlock, the scientific advances in both contraception and in vitro fertilization, single parent adoptions, divorce being so easy and prevalent, single parents, totally parentless households with the grandparents raising the kids, makes it difficult to defend or even define "traditional" marriage. In other words, if the slate was wiped clean and the laws were to be written from scratch, the laws they would draft would look nothing like what is out there today.

177 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:52:20am

re: #175 Obdicut

A Chicago mounted policeman saved my life after I got out of a cab in the middle of winter because the couple I was with were trying to kill each other. I was drunk and lost and dressed for the clubs and not the streets and would have probably died of hypothermia if he hadn't come along to grab me and ride me back to the station.

Another Chicago cop kicked in the door to my best friend's apartment, smashed up a bunch of furniture, and left without leaving any information. It took my friend two months to track down what the fuck had happened. He filed a police report, the cops came out and 'investigated' and it was only when a neighbor let him know that it was a cop who did the smashing in the first place that he found out. The cop had been serving a warrant on a completely wrong address.

It took my friend more than a year to be compensated for the damage, and the amount was about a third of what the actual costs to him were-- they paid for parts but not labor, basically.

Another Chicago cop sexually molested my friend Tex when arresting her for defending herself against a guy sexually molesting her. That one was classic. She made a complaint, nothing came of it because no witnesses, etc. The guy has had a bunch of complaints on him but since he was a careful fuckhead nothing ever came of it.

And then there's just all my black friends in Chicago who've gotten stopped and frisked all their lives for no actual cause other than being black.

Excellent well-considered summary, but I'm stuck on the image of you in disco clothes on the back of a horse.

178 Obdicut  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:54:18am

re: #177 Decatur Deb

Excellent well-considered summary, but I'm stuck on the image of you in disco clothes on the back of a horse.

Oh god, it was even worse, this was during my semi-goth phase. Not makeup and crap, but all black, leather stuff, and a metal choke collar. I was 'dating' a goth girl, is my excuse.

179 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:56:18am

re: #178 Obdicut

Oh god, it was even worse, this was during my semi-goth phase. Not makeup and crap, but all black, leather stuff, and a metal choke collar. I was 'dating' a goth girl, is my excuse.

And you drew the one mountie who wouldn't beat your head in for Daley and Jesus. Buy me a lottery ticket.

180 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:57:40am

re: #175 Obdicut

My brother managed to get himself caught in the middle of a mini-riot in Peoria. When he finally managed to get out of the crowd a mounted policeman asked to see his ID. As he was handing it up to him and explaining he was only trying to get out of the way the cop slapped cuffs on him, attached him to the horse, and walked/jogged him to a police station down the street. He spent the night in a drunk tank (sober) before they let him go.

181 Lidane  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:58:59am

Nick Hanauer gave a hell of a TED Talk:

182 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:59:20am

re: #179 Decatur Deb

And you drew the one mountie who wouldn't beat your head in for Daley and Jesus. Buy me a lottery ticket.

This, right here, made me laugh out loud. "For Daley and Jesus", indeed. Maybe they should consider making that the official Chicago PD motto.

183 Obdicut  Fri, May 18, 2012 6:59:38am

re: #179 Decatur Deb

And you drew the one mountie who wouldn't beat your head in for Daley and Jesus. Buy me a lottery ticket.

I often had this weird fucking luck where I get the nice treatment while my friend around me are getting it in the neck. I have no real explanation for it. At the Belgian Halloween party at the International House at UofC, the same year, when I was dressed as a satanic Chippendale, I didn't get arrested even though I was openly carrying a flask while a horde of undergraduates were being shoveled into the back of the vans. I was standing next to the police sergeant just watching the show. He told me they were just going to drive them around for a bit to put the far of god in them, because, frankly, his time was worth more than processing a bunch of kids through the system.

No idea why he didn't add me to the list. Maybe he liked that I was a jaunty shade of blue.

184 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:00:35am

Good morning lizards!

185 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:01:28am

re: #148 Killgore Trout

Peaceful protest watch...
Police: NATO protesters arrested in house raid that produced Molotov cocktails

This is going to be a wild weekend in Chicago.

186 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:02:19am

re: #180 RogueOne

My brother managed to get himself caught in the middle of a mini-riot in Peoria. When he finally managed to get out of the crowd a mounted policeman asked to see his ID. As he was handing it up to him and explaining he was only trying to get out of the way the cop slapped cuffs on him, attached him to the horse, and walked/jogged him to a police station down the street. He spent the night in a drunk tank (sober) before they let him go.

It's just one bad apple! //

187 Talking Point Detective  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:05:41am

re: #2 Larry A. Herzberg

Maybe so, but what about all the powerless people who oppose gay marriage (for instance, the majority of the black community in California). You can't fear losing power if you never had it...

Actually, it's not uncommon that when people have little power, they exercise what little power they have - in this case assert power over those who have less. It's like a petty fiefdom mentality.

188 Stephen T.  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:06:25am

I've rarely met anyone who was opposed to gay marriage that was not also opposed to homosexual behavior. There is no rationalizing with some people.

The ideas expressed in the video are things I've read and heard elsewhere. When you look under the surface of those who say "I have no problem with gays, but I'm against gay marriage," usually have a problem with gays that they don't wish to admit.

189 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:07:16am

BBL

190 Mocking Jay  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:08:52am

re: #178 Obdicut

Oh god, it was even worse, this was during my semi-goth phase. Not makeup and crap, but all black, leather stuff, and a metal choke collar. I was 'dating' a goth girl, is my excuse.

In some of my college days I was a little more Catholic than I really was for a woman. Oh how stupid we get for them sometimes...

191 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:10:13am

Trayvon Martin crime scene and George Zimmerman injury photos
It seems there's another myth busted. The confrontation does appear to have taken place near a sidewalk. pic #69 appears to show the sidewalk with several blood splatters. Also from the looks of Zimmerman's hands there don;t appear to be any injuries or swelling. He may not have landed many punches.

192 Obdicut  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:11:39am

re: #191 Killgore Trout

And it really clearly shows how minor his injuries were, as well.

193 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:13:19am

re: #191 Killgore Trout

I thought we knew that already. The only question I have left is I haven't been able to determine the exact path zimmerman took when he followed Martin. I've seen a bunch of stories that suggest they know but nothing definitive.

194 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:13:35am
orthogonal

PRONUNCIATION:
(or-THOG-uh-nuhl)

MEANING:
adjective:
1. At right angles.
2. Unrelated or independent of each other.

ETYMOLOGY:
From Latin orthogonius (right-angled), from Greek orthogonios, from ortho- (right, correct) + gonia (angle). Ultimately from the Indo-European root genu- (knee), which also gave us knee, kneel, genuflect, and diagonal. Earliest documented use: before 1560.

USAGE:
"I've always liked the idea of belonging to a union, but then again they always seemed orthogonal to what I was actually doing with my life."
Now That's A Really Good Question; The Economist (London, UK); Feb 22, 2011.

195 Mattand  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:14:01am

re: #191 Killgore Trout

Trayvon Martin crime scene and George Zimmerman injury photos
It seems there's another myth busted. The confrontation does appear to have taken place near a sidewalk. pic #69 appears to show the sidewalk with several blood splatters. Also from the looks of Zimmerman's hands there don;t appear to be any injuries or swelling. He may not have landed many punches.

That's one of the reasons for carrying a gun, I guess. Why bruise your knuckles when you can shoot someone in the chest?

196 Eventual Carrion  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:17:42am

re: #91 Decatur Deb

Went to school with a kid named 'Adolf'. We were born in 1944.

I went to school with a kid named Robin Hood, for real.

197 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:17:56am

re: #186 May Day! May Day!

It's just one bad apple! //

My brother manages to get himself into a bunch of situations like that mostly because he's the bad apple./ He's not bad, just stupid.

When I graduated from OCS I went to visit him at Cherry Point to rub it in a little. He took me out with a bunch of marines and a brawl broke out. It looked like something out of an old western. People were throwing chairs, swinging pool sticks, basically kicking the crap out of each other. I knocked over a table in the corner, sat down behind it, and waited for the cops to figure it all out.

198 funky chicken  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:19:33am

re: #47 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)

Great answer.

199 darthstar  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:20:26am

re: #191 Killgore Trout

Trayvon Martin crime scene and George Zimmerman injury photos
It seems there's another myth busted. The confrontation does appear to have taken place near a sidewalk. pic #69 appears to show the sidewalk with several blood splatters. Also from the looks of Zimmerman's hands there don;t appear to be any injuries or swelling. He may not have landed many punches.

I still find the gaping chest wound in Trayvon Martin to be more significant.

200 Bulworth  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:22:08am

The "explanation" that seems most common now is "You can't change the definition of marriage!" or its variant "Marriage is between one man and one woman!"

The first is silly--there have been many types and purposes of marriage through the centuries (economic support, procreation, companionship, political alliance, etc)--and the second is a tautology.

To put it another way, opponents of SSM have now basically given up providing any reasonable rationale, other than "this isn't how we do things around here". Needless to say, this is just an excuse to not make a change of any kind, be it from slaveholding to abolition or from segregation to integration, to name just a few.

201 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:23:49am

Kucinich: 'We're getting ready for war against Iran' with Thursday votes

Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) warned Thursday morning that two planned House votes later in the day will move the United States much closer to a war footing against Iran, by seeking to alter U.S. diplomatic goals with Iran and by requiring the United States to move military assets to the Middle East in preparation for war.

On the diplomatic front, the House is expected to vote Thursday on H.Res. 568, a resolution expressing the importance of preventing Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons. While this is a non-binding resolution, Kucinich warned that it urges President Obama to affirm the unacceptability of an Iran with nuclear-weapons capability, and oppose policies that accept containment of a nuclear-capable Iran.

"This language represents a significant shift in U.S. policy, and would guarantee that talks with Iran currently scheduled for May 23, would fail," Kucinich said. "Current U.S. policy is that Iran cannot acquire nuclear weapons. Instead, H.Res. 568 draws the red line for military action at Iran achieving a nuclear weapons capability, a nebulous and undefined term that would include a civilian nuclear program."

..."C'mon," Kucinich said in reaction to that language. "We're getting ready for war against Iran."

Next he will call Obama a warmonger.

202 Interesting Times  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:24:10am

Zimmerman, according to the witness, targeted him because he was Middle Eastern. He repeatedly called the man a “fucking moron” and mocked him using the voice of “Achmed the terrorist.” Zimmerman’s stories about the man would involve “bombing,” “I’ll kill your family” and other “jokes” about “Middle Eastern stuff.” According to the man, this went on “for days and days.”

After a few months, Zimmerman was terminated. According to the witness, “he was fired for calling HR hotline so many times…he would complain about each and every manager and employee.”

This can only result in more donations to Zimmerman's defense fund from illustrious VDARE types 9_9

203 Kronocide  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:24:49am

So Trayvon was standing his ground and beating Zimmerman's ass... and Zimmerman decided to win the fight.

Doesn't look good for Zimmerman.

Self defense resulting in a gunshot death when defending yourself against a one on one fist fight is going to be specious. Trayvon Martin was standing his ground too. His only error was being unarmed.

204 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:27:55am

I really can't wait until the investigations and trial are over for Zimmerman. I think all the hoopla is getting recycled too much.

I want closure and I'm sure the family does too.

205 Mattand  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:28:36am

re: #202 Interesting Times

Would that be admissible in court? Is that something that would speak to motive, or would it be dismissed as hearsay, unprovable, etc.?

206 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:30:34am

re: #197 RogueOne

My brother manages to get himself into a bunch of situations like that mostly because he's the bad apple./ He's not bad, just stupid.

When I graduated from OCS I went to visit him at Cherry Point to rub it in a little. He took me out with a bunch of marines and a brawl broke out. It looked like something out of an old western. People were throwing chairs, swinging pool sticks, basically kicking the crap out of each other. I knocked over a table in the corner, sat down behind it, and waited for the cops to figure it all out.

Typical officer. Bunker down in the rear while the jar heads do all the work!
;) :) j/k

207 lawhawk  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:32:00am

re: #203 Kronocide

I could see that being used as a prosecution argument, in tandem with the revelation that the entire incident could have been avoided had Zimmerman simply stayed in his vehicle.

I'm still trying to review the actual materials - not going to read someone else's summaries where they may introduce their own bias into the analysis.

208 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:33:05am

re: #204 ggt

I really can't wait until the investigations and trial are over for Zimmerman. I think all the hoopla is getting recycled too much.

I want closure and I'm sure the family does too.

I just think the minute by minute rehash any time the talking heads or anyone else adds one more data point is getting very tiresome in its repetitiveness. This discussion topic needs something like a "2-week rule" to simply allow useful and valid information to settle out and then be discussed rationally.

209 AK-47%  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:33:43am

re: #202 Interesting Times

[Embedded content] This can only result in more donations to Zimmerman's defense fund from illustrious VDARE types 9_9

I keep thinking of changing my screen name, but I guess I will keep it until the trial has run its course...

210 darthstar  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:36:02am
211 Kronocide  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:36:52am

re: #207 lawhawk

I'm really interested in the audio recording of the phone call where Zimmerman said 'f-ing coons.' Yet in the press conference post arrest, Corey said he didn't say a slur.

Motive is a huge part of this case, as integral as SYG law.

212 wrenchwench  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:37:45am
Frank says:

A lot of things wrong with society today are directly attributable to the fact that the people who make the laws are sexually maladjusted. -- from "I Seem To Be a Verb" by R. Buckminster Fuller, 1970.

213 Gus  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:38:15am
214 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:39:01am

re: #210 darthstar

That picture is getting forwarded out right now.

215 Gus  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:39:45am

re: #85 RogueOne

Is that in Ohio?

My first thought was actually Pennsylvania.

216 Mattand  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:39:48am

re: #210 darthstar

I'm disappointed they didn't throw in a "Wakka wakka wakka!"

217 Lidane  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:40:41am

Next interviews are set for Tuesday. I'm also meeting with the recruiter today to talk salary requirements so I don't end up torpedoing my chances by either selling myself short or asking for an outlandish amount.

I think I'm going to aim for the management position that would have me traveling to Latin America part of the time. Of all the stuff they threw at me yesterday, it's the position I keep thinking about.

218 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:41:30am

A friend just postd on fb that she is going to celebrate Christian Life today.

What does that mean?

219 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:41:37am

re: #206 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Typical officer. Bunker down in the rear while the jar heads do all the work!
;) :) j/k

Hey now! I worked hard for that butter bar, I wasn't about to throw it away after less than a week because a bunch of jarheads didn't know how to behave themselves in public.

220 lawhawk  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:41:45am

This isn't the Ring of Fire that Johnny Cash was looking for - but it's definitely real and should be quite spectacular.

Oh, and the requisite listening accompaniment for the eclipse:

221 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:42:12am

re: #217 Lidane

Next interviews are set for Tuesday. I'm also meeting with the recruiter today to talk salary requirements so I don't end up torpedoing my chances by either selling myself short or asking for an outlandish amount.

I think I'm going to aim for the management position that would have me traveling to Latin America part of the time. Of all the stuff they threw at me yesterday, it's the position I keep thinking about.

Remember, women tend to sell themselves short in salary negotations. Don't be afraid to ask for more--they expect it.

222 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:42:53am

re: #220 lawhawk

This isn't the Ring of Fire that Johnny Cash was looking for - but it's definitely real and should be quite spectacular.

Oh, and the requisite listening accompaniment for the eclipse:

[Embedded content]

Upding for Johnny Cash!

223 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:43:54am

Obdicut, we had a discussion last night about languages.

What language do the Rominey (sp?) speak?

224 darthstar  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:45:33am

re: #216 mattand

I'm disappointed they didn't throw in a "Wakka wakka wakka!"

I always thought it was "Wocka, wocka, wocka..." Now I'm confused and need to re-visit the 70s.

225 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:46:34am

re: #223 ggt

Obdicut, we had a discussion last night about languages.

What language do the Rominey (sp?) speak?

Rominey is a weird typo but...

Image: Money.jpg

226 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:47:49am

re: #225 RogueOne

Rominey is a weird typo but...

Image: Money.jpg

Not enough coffee, my apologies

It's a very bad morning for the body.

Romani?

227 Mattand  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:47:59am

re: #218 ggt

A friend just postd on fb that she is going to celebrate Christian Life today.

What does that mean?

I guess anything from "Help an old lady across the street" to "Explain to my congressman that gay marriage should be banned in the Constitution."

Hopefully the former. The only person I know who says stuff like that believes the Girl Scouts promote a lesbian agenda.

228 Lidane  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:48:16am

re: #221 ggt

Remember, women tend to sell themselves short in salary negotations. Don't be afraid to ask for more--they expect it.

True. I just don't want to walk in unprepared. Without knowing what other similar positions pay at the company, I'd be going into negotiations half-blind.

I'm also going to argue for some of my previous positions to count in my favor as experience. I may not have direct experience in the specific job I want, but I have had similar experiences in other jobs in the past that I think translate to more pay. Hence, going in and talking to the recruiter today.

229 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:49:00am

re: #228 Lidane

True. I just don't want to walk in unprepared. Without knowing what other similar positions pay at the company, I'd be going into negotiations half-blind.

I'm also going to argue for some of my previous positions to count in my favor as experience. I may not have direct experience in the specific job I want, but I have had similar experiences in other jobs in the past that I think translate to more pay. Hence, going in and talking to the recruiter today.

What salaries do others in that position in that field get?

230 S'latch  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:49:26am

I think the main reason that people fear same-sex marriage is that they fear their children becoming homosexuals. They fear it because homosexual people generally don't reproduce themselves.

When same-sex couples must be treated the same as everyone else (they become teachers, coaches, public figure roll models, etc.), some people fear that their children will learn that it is okay to be homosexual. They fear they won't be able to tell their children that there is something wrong with it, and that they should seek a mate of the same sex.

Ultimately they fear losing (potential) biological grandchildren. You could consider it a natural and instinctive fear that is part of the biological instinct to reproduce.

231 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:49:34am

re: #227 mattand

I guess anything from "Help an old lady across the street" to "Explain to my congressman that gay marriage should be banned in the Constitution."

Hopefully the former. The only person I know who says stuff like that believes the Girl Scouts promote a lesbian agenda.

Yeah, I didn't think this person was like that, but I guess things have changed. New marriage . . . was a Catholic Convert in the first marriage.

232 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:50:29am

re: #230 Lawrence Schmerel

I think the main reason that people fear same-sex marriage is that they fear their children becoming homosexuals. They fear it because homosexual people generally don't reproduce themselves.

When same-sex couples must be treated the same as everyone else (they become teachers, coaches, public figure roll models, etc.), some people fear that their children will learn that it is okay to be homosexual. They fear they won't be able to tell their children that there is something wrong with it, and that they should seek a mate of the same sex.

Ultimately they fear losing (potential) biological grandchildren. You could consider it a natural and instinctive fear that is part of the biological instinct to reproduce.

Maybe some deep-seated fear of extinction?

Mostly I think it's fear of sex.

233 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:50:43am

re: #211 Kronocide

I'm really interested in the audio recording of the phone call where Zimmerman said 'f-ing coons.' Yet in the press conference post arrest, Corey said he didn't say a slur.

Motive is a huge part of this case, as integral as SYG law.

There is zero evidence Z mentioned "coons". The police investigation says "punks", while the FBI hate crime report says unintelligible.

234 Mocking Jay  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:52:36am

re: #230 Lawrence Schmerel

I think the main reason that people fear same-sex marriage is that they fear their children becoming homosexuals. They fear it because homosexual people generally don't reproduce themselves.

When same-sex couples must be treated the same as everyone else (they become teachers, coaches, public figure roll models, etc.), some people fear that their children will learn that it is okay to be homosexual. They fear they won't be able to tell their children that there is something wrong with it, and that they should seek a mate of the same sex.

Ultimately they fear losing (potential) biological grandchildren. You could consider it a natural and instinctive fear that is part of the biological instinct to reproduce.

I think this plays a huge role in it, going all the way back to before biblical times.

235 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:53:11am

re: #232 ggt

Maybe some deep-seated fear of extinction?

Mostly I think it's fear of sex.

Well, sex is largely demonized in right-wing religious culture. Even married couples often approach sex from the standpoint of, "Well, we _have_ to do it if we want kids..."

236 Mocking Jay  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:53:15am

re: #232 ggt

Maybe some deep-seated fear of extinction?

Mostly I think it's fear of sex.

Not extinction, but a fear that one's genes won't be passed on.

237 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:54:51am

Disgusting of Tunbridge Wells: 'Vicky Pollard' teenager thrown off Home Counties train after horrifying passengers with brazen conversation about making sex tape
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

One of you fereigners is going to have to translate "k**b" for me. They beep it out in the video but her accent is so thick I probably couldn't understand her anyway.

'We can have some fun though - we can have pleasure....(laughing)..I'll record it while I'm at it.'

She then gets graphic, adding: 'You got a k**b ain't ya? Well you ain't no girl are ya?'

238 Mattand  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:56:33am

re: #231 ggt

Yeah, I didn't think this person was like that, but I guess things have changed. New marriage . . . was a Catholic Convert in the first marriage.

The Born Agains are all over the map when it comes to Spreading the Good Word™. Everything from live and let live to watching "Glee" makes kids hump wombats.

I'm basically atheist at this point, but if religion is your thing, fine. Just keep it out of my government and don't proselytize at me.

239 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:56:40am

re: #237 RogueOne

Disgusting of Tunbridge Wells: 'Vicky Pollard' teenager thrown off Home Counties train after horrifying passengers with brazen conversation about making sex tape
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

One of you fereigners is going to have to translate "k**b" for me. They beep it out in the video but her accent is so thick I probably couldn't understand her anyway.

Kebab? Loofah? Falafel?//

240 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:57:14am

In trying to examine my own past feelings about the LGBT community . . . .

When I was younger and having lots of fun --I really could have cared less. I have a "big brother" type person who came-out while I was in college. I noticed it was really good for him--not lying anymore changed him tremendously. Everyone else freaked for a while, but he was (finally) perfectly normal.

So, I surmised that lying was bad for person and wondered why anyone would want anyone to live a lie. The result of the lie were so much worse than being gay could be.

Everyone got a packet in the mail from the Surgeon General about AIDS at that time and I could see that it was risky behavior, not homosexual behavior that was the culprit. Why others didn't see this is unknown to me --maybe they didn't read it.

I had no gay inclinations so I figured --WTF --who cares what other people do.

SSM, never even occurred to me until I heard about it in the late '90s? I thought why?

Slow thinker here --I blame having a small child around at the time --I thought more like WHY would anyone get married if they didn't want children?

241 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:57:26am

re: #235 thedopefishlives

Well, sex is largely demonized in right-wing religious culture. Even married couples often approach sex from the standpoint of, "Well, we _have_ to do it if we want kids..."

Yeah, I don't get that.

242 Renaissance_Man  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:57:27am

re: #237 RogueOne

Disgusting of Tunbridge Wells: 'Vicky Pollard' teenager thrown off Home Counties train after horrifying passengers with brazen conversation about making sex tape
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

One of you fereigners is going to have to translate "k**b" for me. They beep it out in the video but her accent is so thick I probably couldn't understand her anyway.

Knob. As a noun, generally means penis, as a verb, means to fuck.

243 Gus  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:58:18am

re: #237 RogueOne

Disgusting of Tunbridge Wells: 'Vicky Pollard' teenager thrown off Home Counties train after horrifying passengers with brazen conversation about making sex tape
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

One of you fereigners is going to have to translate "k**b" for me. They beep it out in the video but her accent is so thick I probably couldn't understand her anyway.

More of that hard hitting news from the Daily Mail.

244 Kronocide  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:58:23am

re: #233 May Day! May Day!

There is zero evidence Z mentioned "coons". The police investigation says "punks", while the FBI hate crime report says unintelligible.

I wouldn't say there is zero evidence. There is evidence.

I'm not privy to the FBI's recordings or reports. I did hear this same recording that had been 'cleaned up' by a new outlet and reported on, and it was pretty clear he said 'f-ing coons.' Much clearer than this Young Turks segment.

If the prosecution has access to all the tape and has had a better listen then I'll accept that. But saying 'f-ing goons' seems and odd thing to say, and coincidentally 'coons' is still a common racial slur.

245 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:58:28am

re: #242 Renaissance_Man

Knob. As a noun, generally means penis, as a verb, means to fuck.

Damn ferinners!//

246 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:58:36am

re: #242 Renaissance_Man

Knob. As a noun, generally means penis, as a verb, means to fuck.

Kids these days . . .

247 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:58:49am

re: #242 Renaissance_Man

Knob! that has to be it.

248 dragonfire1981  Fri, May 18, 2012 7:59:04am

Kansas Governor Brownback apologizes for Segregation

That hopefully means all the female victims of the War on Women can expect the same in 50-odd years.

249 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:00:58am

re: #243 Gus

More of that hard hitting news from the Daily Mail.

There's another good one on there:

The ex-husband yard sale... and everything is FREE! Wife dumps former partner's belongings by side of the road and spray paints 'cheater' on his SUV
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

One angry divorcee has taken a cathartic approach to the end of her marriage and removed every reminder of her ex-husband from her home.

Unfortunately for him, she then simply dumped the possessions in the front yard of their split level house next to a spray-painted sign which read 'free' and 'x-husband sale'.

And if the source of her rage wasn't at first clear, the woman from Superior, Wisconsin also flattened the tires of his GMC Yukon SUV and sprayed the word 'cheater' on the side.

Image: article-2146141-13265BA9000005DC-147_964x541.jpg

She seems a little angry.

250 Simply Sarah  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:02:05am

I'd like to suggest that part of the reason for the rapid shifting in overall polling on same-sex marriage, beyond demographic shifts, is that for a sizable number of people they quite simply don't have a real deeply held reason to oppose it. Rather, they had or continue to oppose it largely because it requires a shift in their way of thinking about human relationships and nothing has yet to pushed them to make such a shift. Bigotry out of inertia, you might say.

Now, such people may state this or that reason for opposing same-sex marriage, but in many cases it seems these seem to be more deeply held than they are strongly held. As such, it may take a while to turn their views around, but it's possible, especially if they know same-sex couples.

To be clear, I'm not even remotely trying to excuse people like this (Far from it), but I think it might have some value in explaining the stance of a lot of the less/non-vocal opponents that make up a good chunk of the opposition.

251 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:02:12am

re: #249 RogueOne

There's another good one on there:

The ex-husband yard sale... and everything is FREE! Wife dumps former partner's belongings by side of the road and spray paints 'cheater' on his SUV
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

Image: article-2146141-13265BA9000005DC-147_964x541.jpg

She seems a little angry.

Hell Hath No Fury . . .

252 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:02:15am

re: #241 ggt

Yeah, I don't get that.

I don't either. I think the original Biblical prohibition was intended to keep family lines intact, and to prevent unwanted pregnancies; both of which were important issues back in the day. Nowadays, neither is terribly concerning (well, unless you're my family), but of course, by now, any logic behind Biblical prohibitions has been thrown out the window in favor of slavish literalism. The problem is that the Christian community so over-demonizes extra-marital sex that it taints the reputation of sexual activity as a whole.

253 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:02:46am

re: #250 Simply Sarah

I'd like to suggest that part of the reason for the rapid shifting in overall polling on same-sex marriage, beyond demographic shifts, is that for a sizable number of people they quite simply don't have a real deeply held reason to oppose it. Rather, they had or continue to oppose it largely because it requires a shift in their way of thinking about human relationships and nothing has yet to pushed them to make such a shift. Bigotry out of inertia, you might say.

Now, such people may state this or that reason for opposing same-sex marriage, but in many cases it seems these seem to be more deeply held than they are strongly held. As such, it may take a while to turn their views around, but it's possible, especially if they know same-sex couples.

To be clear, I'm not even remotely trying to excuse people like this (Far from it), but I think it might have some value in explaining the stance of a lot of the less/non-vocal opponents that make up a good chunk of the opposition.

You mean logic over emotion?

254 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:04:02am

re: #244 Kronocide

I wouldn't say there is zero evidence. There is evidence.

I'm not privy to the FBI's recordings or reports. I did hear this same recording that had been 'cleaned up' by a new outlet and reported on, and it was pretty clear he said 'f-ing coons.' Much clearer than this Young Turks segment.

If the prosecution has access to all the tape and has had a better listen then I'll accept that. But saying 'f-ing goons' seems and odd thing to say, and coincidentally 'coons' is still a common racial slur.

There is no evidence. What you interpret as hearing from a noisy tape, even if you think it's clear, is just not evidence, it can be just a game your mind plays. Just like it is the case with that news segment - at first they hinted at "coons", but there was a follow-up where the same audio expert used different algorithms and was convinced it was "cold".

Tom Owen, the expert that thinks it was not Z who cried for help, is sure it is "punks". The prosecutor's office thinks it's "punks" too - and you understand very well that if they could prove "coons", it would be a boon to them.

The FBI report is in the released PDF, I gave the link somewhere above. They say the signal is just too weak to interpret. I tend to agree.

255 moderatelyradicalliberal  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:04:55am

Video of Trayvon Martin at the 7-11 before he ran into Zimmerman and his 9mm.

[Link: www.theatlanticwire.com...]

Normal kid buying candy who had no idea what was coming. I feel helpless watching it. I want to want him of what's coming, but of course I can't. If I were his mother, I couldn't watch.

256 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:06:10am

As an Iranian Rap is dangerous business.

Iran-born singer hiding in Germany after rap prompts online death threats

BERLIN — An Iranian-born artist has gone into hiding in Germany after receiving death threats for allegedly insulting a Shiite saint in a rap song.

Shahin Najafi says the threats began appearing on online forums and in his email inbox last week after officials and religious authorities in Iran suggested he had committed apostasy.

Najafi recently published a humorous song titled “Naghi,” in which he complained to an eponymous 9th century Islamic saint about plastic surgery and Chinese prayer rugs.

The singer, who has lived in Germany since 2005, told The Associated Press on Friday that he is now in a “safe place” and plans to continue his work.

Police in the western city of Cologne say they are taking the threats seriously.

257 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:06:57am

re: #249 RogueOne

There's another good one on there:

The ex-husband yard sale... and everything is FREE! Wife dumps former partner's belongings by side of the road and spray paints 'cheater' on his SUV
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

Image: article-2146141-13265BA9000005DC-147_964x541.jpg

She seems a little angry.

Must have got the idea from that Carrie Underwood song which glorifies violence and property destruction.

258 Simply Sarah  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:07:41am

re: #253 ggt

You mean logic over emotion?

In a way. What I'm trying to say is that, for many people, it is less about "It's wrong and I know that for certain!" and more along the lines of what you said your thoughts were when you first heard about the idea in the 90s. That is: "I don't get it." A new and somewhat strange idea that is easy to reject out of habit and socialization. As understanding increases and people can say "Oh, I mostly get it now" they will open up to the idea so long as there aren't very strong convictions against it from other sources.

259 S'latch  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:07:42am

re: #232 ggt

I would say "disapproval" of sexuality rather than "fear" of sex.

Generally, people disapprove of those who lack of control of their sexual impulses. Some people who are opposed to same-sex marriage view homosexuals as people who lack the power to control their sexual impulses. If you begin with the belief that homosexuality is a choice and also consider that there is no rational reason to choose homosexuality, you would conclude that homosexuality is the result of a failure to control a deviant sexual impulse.

260 Lidane  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:08:32am

re: #229 ggt

What salaries do others in that position in that field get?

That's what I've been looking into over at PayScale. Someone fresh off the bus earns an average salary in the 50's. If I could argue for more management experience based on my past work that average goes way up. Plus, I have to think about my bills. Aside from rent and utilities and all the usual stuff, I'll have student loan payments to make and I'd actually like to rebuild my savings that I burned through in school.

We'll see. I've got to sit down with the recruiter and talk about this stuff. I need to know how much I can reasonably get for my work, especially if I'm going to travel a lot.

261 moderatelyradicalliberal  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:09:06am

re: #202 Interesting Times

[Embedded content] This can only result in more donations to Zimmerman's defense fund from illustrious VDARE types 9_9

Well that makes Zimmerman sound like a racist bully, and that can't be true because his dad says he's not a racist and was bullied by Trayvon Martin.

///

262 Mattand  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:11:00am

re: #255 moderatelyradicalliberal

Video of Trayvon Martin at the 7-11 before he ran into Zimmerman and his 9mm.

[Link: www.theatlanticwire.com...]

Normal kid buying candy who had no idea what was coming. I feel helpless watching it. I want to want him of what's coming, but of course I can't. If I were his mother, I couldn't watch.

This is why I get so pissed off about this whole incident. This kid was doing nothing wrong. Shit, I don't even have kids and it's upsetting.

Martin was minding his own business and he paid for it with his life. Because some fuckwit with a loaded gun and an inflated ego was going to "protect" the neighborhood.

263 Kronocide  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:12:22am

re: #254 May Day! May Day!

It could be my mind playing tricks on me, or he could have actually said coons. You are correct in that none of what we are looking at is evidence as entered into the case. I expect the prosecution hammer on this when they review motive, if they think they can prove he said coons.

There is also the possibility that the prosecution may believe he said coons but decide not to press it because the evidence (as entered into court and not a news website video) is not clear.

265 bratwurst  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:15:23am

re: #248 dragonfire1981

Kansas Governor Brownback apologizes for Segregation

Ah, I can't believe he found time...he's been busy, having recently signed his FIFTH anti-abortion bill since he took office 16 months ago!

266 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:15:29am

re: #218 ggt

A friend just postd on fb that she is going to celebrate Christian Life today.

What does that mean?

She's going to sell all that she has and give it to the poor?

267 Daniel Ballard  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:15:37am

re: #254 May Day! May Day!

What we have here in addition to a senseless tragedy precipitated by GZ, is a test of preconceptions and the willingness to accept evidence. I mean on it's own merit rather than how well it helps or how badly it denies these preconceptions about what happened.

Again-We know what GZ did wrong. We know he precipitated a confrontation. Based on early reports-We thought GZ uninjured. We thought no evidence was gathered. We thought there were no good witnesses. We though GZ shot without any threat to him at all. Some think they know what GZ said. Some think they know who was on top in the fight.

Many of those thoughts will be dis-proven or have been already. The available evidence is changing fast. Preconceived conclusions are changing far slower than the evidence emerges.

GZ is such a hated figure many want to ignore or dismiss any and all real evidence he told the truth about the fight. So we all get to ask ourselves this-is our loyalty to available facts or to our distant conclusions?

What if GZ told the truth about the fight?

268 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:16:18am

re: #264 dragonfire1981

Mitt Romney debuts new ad, vows to approve Keystone and end Obamacare on Day 1

He can't decide to overturn a federal law all on his own.

269 Kronocide  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:17:46am

re: #82 May Day! May Day!

In the discovery pdf - [Link: msnbcmedia.msn.com...] - there is an FBI report about the examination of the "fucking" phrase that states the signal is too weak to interpret. The parallel prosecutors' investigation, as we know, interpreted it as punks.

Crap, I can't get this to load. I have to try and find it somewhere else.

270 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:17:56am
Summary of examination:

[...]

The specific request to identify the word following "fucking" ... could not be done due to weak signal and poor recording quality.

Voice comparison is not possible for the designated voices due to extreme stress and unsuitable audio quality.

It's the FBI lab, guys. Incidentally, the last sentence deals with screams for help, that have been ascribed both to GZ and TM by various parties.

271 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:18:16am

re: #267 Daniel Ballard

That's why I'd like to see the police interpretation of Zimmerman's path. Unless everyone is wrong about it the only plausible scenario I see is Martin attacking Zimmerman.

272 moderatelyradicalliberal  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:18:20am

re: #262 mattand

This is why I get so pissed off about this whole incident. This kid was doing nothing wrong. Shit, I don't even have kids and it's upsetting.

Martin was minding his own business and he paid for it with his life. Because some fuckwit with a loaded gun and an inflated ego was going to "protect" the neighborhood.

That's what this comes down to for me. The defense is going to want to focus in on the fight, but I hope the prosecution focuses on the fact the Trayvon was minding his own business when Zimmerman saw him, racially profiled him and decided to pursue him against all common sense. Trayvon didn't bother Zimmerman, it was the other way around. Zimmerman is the cause of whatever happened. If he got his ass kicked it's because he couldn't leave people alone and mind his own business. If he stayed in his truck and took his ass home, Trayvon would still be alive and that's it for me.

The prosecution has a video of the victim doing the most innocent mundane activity just a little before he was killed. He was minding his own business that night. I sure hope they use it.

273 Mattand  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:18:40am

This just in form Talking Points Memo: AZ's Secretary of State may strike Obama from November's ballot because he has "questions" about Obama's birth.

Says he's following Arpaio's lead. No racism here. Nope. No siree.

When is this bullshit going to stop?

274 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:20:00am

re: #263 Kronocide

I expect the prosecution hammer on this when they review motive, if they think they can prove he said coons.

There is also the possibility that the prosecution may believe he said coons but decide not to press it because the evidence (as entered into court and not a news website video) is not clear.

You're forgetting that the prosecution went with "punks". They could have stayed silent if they were unsure.

Simple truth is that we don't know what he said, and no expert has concluded that it's "coons" and stayed with this opinion.

275 Mattand  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:21:08am

re: #272 moderatelyradicalliberal

That's what this comes down to for me. The defense is going to want to focus in on the fight, but I hope the prosecution focuses on the fact the Trayvon was minding his own business when Zimmerman saw him, racially profiled him and decided to pursue him against all common sense. Trayvon didn't bother Zimmerman, it was the other way around. Zimmerman is the cause of whatever happened. If he got his ass kicked it's because he couldn't leave people alone and mind his own business. If he stayed in his truck and took his ass home, Trayvon would still be alive and that's it for me.

The prosecution has a video of the victim doing the most innocent mundane activity just a little before he was killed. He was minding his own business that night. I sure hope they use it.

This is why I lost my shit yesterday when it appeared someone was suggesting that maybe both sides are to blame.

276 Ming  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:22:17am

About gay marriage, I think one reason for some people's opposition is simply that they view gay people as abominations, an insult to the universe, something that shouldn't exist, period. So, from the viewpoint of these people, it's offensive to be in favor of ANY treatment of gay people that acknowledges their humanity in any way. This implies opposition to the rights of gay people to get drivers licenses. Marriage, of course, is just another thing that implies that gay people are human beings. Hence the opposition.

As an atheist, I've sometimes felt this attitude in others. They just don't want to say anything positive about atheists. It would be better if atheists didn't exist.

I suspect this attitude accounts for maybe 20% to 50% of the opposition to gay marriage.

277 Renaissance_Man  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:23:30am

re: #262 mattand

This is why I get so pissed off about this whole incident. This kid was doing nothing wrong. Shit, I don't even have kids and it's upsetting.

Martin was minding his own business and he paid for it with his life. Because some fuckwit with a loaded gun and an inflated ego was going to "protect" the neighborhood.

It is unbelievably repulsive that this incident, to some people, is about 'sides'. Somehow the unprovoked stalking and slaying of an ordinary teenager becomes an inquisition into his character, and more importantly another issue to prove oneself right over and above the left/LGF/the enemy of your choice.

278 Kronocide  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:23:39am

re: #274 May Day! May Day!

You're forgetting that the prosecution went with "punks". They could have stayed silent if they were unsure.

Simple truth is that we don't know what he said, and no expert has concluded that it's "coons" and stayed with this opinion.

Noted.

279 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:25:42am

Forensics isn't really an exact science for the most part. A lot of it is just opinions, often not scientifically substantiated. CSI is a myth.

280 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:25:46am

re: #275 mattand

This is why I lost my shit yesterday when it appeared someone was suggesting that maybe both sides are to blame.

What if you find out that it was Martin that initiated the fight?

281 Mattand  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:26:32am

re: #280 RogueOne

What if you find out that it was Martin that initiated the fight?

If there's evidence proving it, I'll admit I was wrong.

282 Eventual Carrion  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:27:35am

re: #233 May Day! May Day!

There is zero evidence Z mentioned "coons". The police investigation says "punks", while the FBI hate crime report says unintelligible.

When the tape first hit the intertoobs and we were all listening to it over and over, "punks" was what I kept hearing also.

283 moderatelyradicalliberal  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:28:00am

re: #273 mattand

This just in form Talking Points Memo: AZ's Secretary of State may strike Obama from November's ballot because he has "questions" about Obama's birth.

Says he's following Arpaio's lead. No racism here. Nope. No siree.

When is this bullshit going to stop?

Here's a question. Why would they feel the need to do this in a red state? I wonder if they fear the president making a play for AZ and that he may be competitive?

284 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:28:00am

re: #282 RayFerd

When the tape first hit the intertoobs and we were all listening to it over and over, "punks" was what I kept hearing also.

So did Gus and SFZ.

285 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:29:15am

re: #267 Daniel Ballard

What if GZ told the truth about the fight?

I think that's a possibility.

286 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:30:10am

I kept hearing something close to "cones", though with some strain I could fit "punks" in too. It never really sounded like "coons" to me.

287 Gus  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:30:13am

Jesus of Siberia

Deep in Siberia's Taiga forest is Vissarion, a cult leader who looks like Jesus and claims to be the voice of God. He's known as "the Teacher" to his 4,000 followers, who initially seem surprisingly normal. Over time, however, their unflinching belief in UFOs and the Earth's imminent demise made this group start to look more and more like some sort of strange cult.

288 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:30:53am

re: #267 Daniel Ballard

What we have here in addition to a senseless tragedy precipitated by GZ, is a test of preconceptions and the willingness to accept evidence. I mean on it's own merit rather than how well it helps or how badly it denies these preconceptions about what happened.

Again-We know what GZ did wrong. We know he precipitated a confrontation. Based on early reports-We thought GZ uninjured. We thought no evidence was gathered. We thought there were no good witnesses. We though GZ shot without any threat to him at all. Some think they know what GZ said. Some think they know who was on top in the fight.

Many of those thoughts will be dis-proven or have been already. The available evidence is changing fast. Preconceived conclusions are changing far slower than the evidence emerges.

GZ is such a hated figure many want to ignore or dismiss any and all real evidence he told the truth about the fight. So we all get to ask ourselves this-is our loyalty to available facts or to our distant conclusions?

What if GZ told the truth about the fight?

Why did he get out of the truck?

289 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:31:10am

re: #286 May Day! May Day!

I kept hearing something close to "cones", though with some strain I could fit "punks" in too. It never really sounded like "coons" to me.

English isn't your first language is it?

290 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:31:10am

re: #287 Gus

Ah yes, been around for years.

291 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:31:10am

re: #286 May Day! May Day!

I kept hearing something close to "cones", though with some strain I could fit "punks" in too. It never really sounded like "coons" to me.

There was also another "enhanced audio" report where it appears he said "it's fucking cold".

292 dragonfire1981  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:31:23am

re: #273 mattand

This just in form Talking Points Memo: AZ's Secretary of State may strike Obama from November's ballot because he has "questions" about Obama's birth.

Says he's following Arpaio's lead. No racism here. Nope. No siree.

When is this bullshit going to stop?

Could Arizonans who want to vote for Obama (I'm sure there's a few of them...) sue the state over this?

293 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:32:04am

re: #288 ggt

Why did he get out of the truck?

I think it was to check the address on the nearest house.

294 dragonfire1981  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:32:32am

re: #268 RogueOne

He can't decide to overturn a federal law all on his own.

Of course he can. Never doubt the power of the Etch-a-Sketch. //

295 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:32:39am

re: #249 RogueOne

There's another good one on there:

The ex-husband yard sale... and everything is FREE! Wife dumps former partner's belongings by side of the road and spray paints 'cheater' on his SUV
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]


Image: article-2146141-13265BA9000005DC-147_964x541.jpg

She seems a little angry.

Maybe she took the part in the vows about faithfulness and "til death do you part" a bit more seriously than he did.
/

296 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:32:49am

re: #283 moderatelyradicalliberal

Here's a question. Why would they feel the need to do this in a red state? I wonder if they fear the president making a play for AZ and that he may be competitive?

Fear that they aren't red enough?

297 Eventual Carrion  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:33:01am

re: #242 Renaissance_Man

Knob. As a noun, generally means penis, as a verb, means to fuck.

So would Hob Knob mean "to do a hobbit"?

298 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:33:02am

re: #293 Killgore Trout

I think it was to check the address on the nearest house.

right

299 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:33:04am

re: #289 RogueOne

English isn't your first language is it?

No, but my hearing comprehension is not quite bad. There just isn't the long [u:] sound there, it's [ou], if anything.

300 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:33:12am

re: #293 Killgore Trout

I think it was to check the address on the nearest house.

..and to follow him. He admits that much in the audio. "I lost him"

301 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:33:26am

Kid has decided he needs to eat.

Glad I just cleaned the kitchen. . . . .

302 Decatur Deb  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:33:29am

re: #284 May Day! May Day!

So did Gus and SFZ.

Favorite Amish joke:

Stolfuss and his son were taking the wagon to a neighboring town when the father asked his son: "Son, what color is that barn on the hill?"

Son: "It's red of course, father."

Stolfuss: "No, son, it is a barn that is red on this side."


Seems pointless to a lot of people.

303 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:33:36am

re: #291 Killgore Trout

There was also another "enhanced audio" report where it appears he said "it's fucking cold".

I mentioned it above.

304 Mattand  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:33:36am

re: #283 moderatelyradicalliberal

Here's a question. Why would they feel the need to do this in a red state? I wonder if they fear the president making a play for AZ and that he may be competitive?

Not sure if it's Red v Blue as it is Partisan GOP Hack v Reality.

Here in NJ, I can't see Christie or his administration pulling something this stupid, despite the fact he's one of Romney go-to supporters.

305 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:35:24am
306 moderatelyradicalliberal  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:36:01am

re: #280 RogueOne

What if you find out that it was Martin that initiated the fight?

That's something that can never be known, but why would that matter? George Zimmerman pursued Trayvon with a gun. He had already decided what he he was willing to do. He walked into the situation knowing what could happen and how he would handle it. Trayvon was minding his business when Zimmerman came after him. Watch the video. Does he look like he left that store looking for trouble or did trouble come after him? Did he pursue Zimmerman or was it the other way around.

Have you ever been followed at night by a stranger? It's scary as hell and Trayvon had the right to defend himself from a person who's intentions he didn't know. If Zimmerman got his ass kicked, it's his own down fault. Zimmerman created the situation, any way you look at it. Do you think Trayvon's death march began at the fight or when Zimmerman decided to pursue him against all common sense?

307 Kronocide  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:36:02am

re: #279 May Day! May Day!

Forensics isn't really an exact science for the most part. A lot of it is just opinions, often not scientifically substantiated. CSI is a myth.

I agree. What really matters is what's provable in court submitted as evidence. I do remember now Corey went with punks in her presser.

308 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:36:42am

re: #305 ggt

Explain this

Shameless.

Should be renamed to Spotted Dicks.

309 Gus  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:36:48am

re: #290 May Day! May Day!

Ah yes, been around for years.

Another dumb little patriarchal cult. I like the way the description only comes to the conclusion that it's a cult after learning that they believe in UFOs and such. Ummm, to me their whole belief structure is based on unidentified objects and beings. In the end thought it's once again just another way to control people and make a few men at the top feel important.

310 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:36:50am

re: #299 May Day! May Day!

No, but my hearing comprehension is not quite bad. There just isn't the long [u:] sound there, it's [ou], if anything.

I didn't think it was, just curious. How many languages do you speak? I'm asking because I wonder if multiple languages would help/hinder picking out specific slang in a recording. I heard "punks" when I first heard it but if I were told he had said "cold" before i listened to it I might have agreed.

311 Renaissance_Man  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:37:27am
312 Mattand  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:37:55am

re: #267 Daniel Ballard

What we have here in addition to a senseless tragedy precipitated by GZ, is a test of preconceptions and the willingness to accept evidence. I mean on it's own merit rather than how well it helps or how badly it denies these preconceptions about what happened.

Again-We know what GZ did wrong. We know he precipitated a confrontation. Based on early reports-We thought GZ uninjured. We thought no evidence was gathered. We thought there were no good witnesses. We though GZ shot without any threat to him at all. Some think they know what GZ said. Some think they know who was on top in the fight.

Many of those thoughts will be dis-proven or have been already. The available evidence is changing fast. Preconceived conclusions are changing far slower than the evidence emerges.

GZ is such a hated figure many want to ignore or dismiss any and all real evidence he told the truth about the fight. So we all get to ask ourselves this-is our loyalty to available facts or to our distant conclusions?

What if GZ told the truth about the fight?

That's the convenient thing about killing your alleged assailant with almost no one around. Makes your story much easier to push.

313 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:39:14am

re: #306 moderatelyradicalliberal

If we know the path they took we could know. If Z wasn't between Martin and his destination then I think that tells us it was Martin who initiated the contact. From that point, with Zimmermans injuries and ending up on his back, it would make sense that he got hit first.

314 Mocking Jay  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:40:42am

I understood the need to discuss this case before it was prosecuted. Now? Not so much.

315 Kronocide  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:41:03am

Now it seems like he does say punks. Just a dude with audio software on Youtube, but he does make a good case.

316 moderatelyradicalliberal  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:41:13am

re: #285 Killgore Trout

I think that's a possibility.

Why are you so focused on the fight? Who was minding his own business that night? Trayvon. Who profiled a person minding his own business, got our of his truck with a gun and decided to pursue the person he profiled? Zimmerman. Trayvon's death was the result of a situation that Zimmerman created.

I'll cede that Zimmerman may have gotten his ass kicked. What I won't do is entertain that Trayvon initiated any confrontation. He was minding his own business that night. What part of that don't you people focused on the fight understand? If Zimmerman had minded his own business, like Trayvon nothing would have happened that night.

317 moderatelyradicalliberal  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:42:35am

re: #293 Killgore Trout

I think it was to check the address on the nearest house.

You've got to be kidding. The 911 tape makes it clear that he was following Trayvon.

318 Mattand  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:42:54am

re: #313 RogueOne

If we know the path they took we could know. If Z wasn't between Martin and his destination then I think that tells us it was Martin who initiated the contact. From that point, with Zimmermans injuries and ending up on his back, it would make sense that he got hit first.

If some nitwit got out of a truck, prevented me from going home, and started harassing me when I was minding my own business, I might initiate contact as well.

Hell, you could even say I was standing my ground.

319 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:43:30am

re: #302 Decatur Deb

An engineer, a physicist and a mathematician are on a train. They pass a field.

The engineer says: "That field has a white cow in it."

The physicist snorts and says: "That field has at least one white cow in it."

The mathematician smiles smugly and says: "There is at least one field in which there is at least one cow which is white on at least one side."

320 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:43:31am

re: #316 moderatelyradicalliberal

Why are you so focused on the fight? ......

Because nothing up to that point was illegal. It's not illegal to wander around. It's not illegal to follow someone in your neighborhood and ask wtf they're doing. Up until someone threw a punch no one had done anything technically "wrong".

321 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:44:19am

re: #318 mattand

If some nitwit got out of a truck, prevented me from going home, and started harassing me when I was minding my own business, I might initiate contact as well.

Hell, you could even say I was standing my ground.

I would have too that's probably why I think it's probable. My own little bias.

322 lawhawk  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:44:31am

re: #304 mattand

I agree. In NJ, Christie's Lt. Gov. Kim Guadagno (GOP) also serves as Secretary of State and is responsible for overseeing the Division of Elections.

I don't think either would jeopardize Christie's reelection possibility should he seek reelection as governor by pushing birtherism crap in a state that went for Obama in 2008 and which is purple (with a large independent and significant Democratic party).

I think the AZ situation is possible because AZ leans strong GOP (though in 2008 that was possibly skewed because McCain was from AZ).

323 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:44:58am

re: #320 RogueOne

Because nothing up to that point was illegal. It's not illegal to wander around. It's not illegal to follow someone in your neighborhood and ask wtf they're doing. Up until someone threw a punch no one had done anything technically "wrong".

stalking isn't illegal?

324 moderatelyradicalliberal  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:45:30am

re: #313 RogueOne

If we know the path they took we could know. If Z wasn't between Martin and his destination then I think that tells us it was Martin who initiated the contact. From that point, with Zimmermans injuries and ending up on his back, it would make sense that he got hit first.

Or maybe he's older and Trayvon was a young athlete who could easily win a physical confrontation no matter who started it. That's a possibility I will concede.

325 Kronocide  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:45:41am

I think it's very likely that Trayvon either jumped out or confronted Zimmerman, and probably punched first (and was winning the fist fight). But it would not be a substantial tipping point in the case. Any case for SYG could be made for Martin as much as Zim.

326 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:47:43am

re: #316 moderatelyradicalliberal

Why are you so focused on the fight? Who was minding his own business that night? Trayvon. Who profiled a person minding his own business, got our of his truck with a gun and decided to pursue the person he profiled? Zimmerman. Trayvon's death was the result of a situation that Zimmerman created.

I'll cede that Zimmerman may have gotten his ass kicked. What I won't do is entertain that Trayvon initiated any confrontation. He was minding his own business that night. What part of that don't you people focused on the fight understand? If Zimmerman had minded his own business, like Trayvon nothing would have happened that night.

Because legally it's important to determine who initiated the physical confrontation. Zimmerman lived in the complex and had every right to walk around, as did Travon. What you can't legally do is physically attack other people in public even if they are looking at you or watching where you go. So far there's nothing to contradict Zimmerman's story that Trayvon initiated the physical confrontation. Unless there's some evidence otherwise the charges against Zimmerman won't stand up in court.

327 moderatelyradicalliberal  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:48:54am

re: #320 RogueOne

Because nothing up to that point was illegal. It's not illegal to wander around. It's not illegal to follow someone in your neighborhood and ask wtf they're doing. Up until someone threw a punch no one had done anything technically "wrong".

Actually, according SYG in Florida, if Trayvon had been afraid of Zimmerman he would have had the right to stand his ground. Zimmerman would not have had to have made physical contact for that to happen. Would you be afraid if a strange person was following you home at night? As written, the law actually goes both ways, it's just the only Zimmerman is alive to use it.

328 Kronocide  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:51:10am

As for who 'initiated the confrontation,' it was clearly Zimmerman. Even if Martin rushed out of the bushes/hiding and punched Zimmerman, this happened because Zimmerman was following him and Martin felt threatened.

I expect Zim's defense to concede this but put the jury in Zim's shoes: he's getting his ass beat, and forgetting that he (Zim) started all this by following Martin at the moment of fear and raw emotion, pulled and fired his weapon out of fear.

329 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:51:18am

re: #323 ggt

stalking isn't illegal?

I don't think it would be legally considered stalking. You are allowed to observe other people in public. If you spot a suspicious person at the house next door you are allowed to go outside and look.

330 Gus  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:52:14am
331 lawhawk  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:52:14am

re: #326 Killgore Trout

Is there any evidence showing that Martin attacked Zimmerman within the vehicle? Zimmerman left the safety of his vehicle for reasons that are still unknown (except to Zimmerman) and what happened between that point and Martin dying from the gunshot wound are anything but clear.

Did Martin fear for his own life by being confronted by Zimmerman, and did he stand his own ground when confronted? Did Martin fight back against Zimmerman, who then feared for his own life and stood his ground and shot Martin at close range in the chest?

But for Zimmerman leaving his vehicle, Martin would not be dead.

Bottom line: Zimmerman has to live with the consequences of his actions (the murder case against him and the court of public opinion), but Martin is dead because of those actions and he can't attest to any of this except by and through what evidence has been gathered.

332 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:52:16am

re: #327 moderatelyradicalliberal

I already said I would have confronted Zimmerman if he were following me around, especially if I wasn't doing anything wrong. I can completely understand Martin's reasoning if he initiated the contact but, still, you're not allowed to attack someone because they're being an asshole and annoying you.

I would argue you should be allowed to but no one ever agrees///

333 Gus  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:52:46am
334 Kronocide  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:52:47am

re: #329 Killgore Trout

I don't think it would be legally considered stalking. You are allowed to observe other people in public. If you spot a suspicious person at the house next door you are allowed to go outside and look.

What if you spot a suspicious person in a truck following you?

335 Mattand  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:52:48am

re: #321 RogueOne

I would have too that's probably why I think it's probable. My own little bias.

Yeah, but all of this comes back to why Zimmerman got out of the truck in the first place. I know I screwed this up yesterday, but didn't 911 basically tell him to chill and that the cops were on their way?

Zimmerman stays put, and the worst that happens is Martin is harassed for Walking While Black; not that that's acceptable, but at least Martin is still alive.

Seriously, all of this has the stink of Martin somehow had it coming. Which is bullshit.

336 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:54:45am

re: #334 Kronocide

What if you spot a suspicious person in a truck following you?

I don't think you can legally attack them.

337 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:55:49am

re: #336 Killgore Trout

I don't think you can legally attack them.

Unless they're following to close and have their brights on then it's fair game in IN.

338 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:55:50am

To reiterate from the previous day I still think Z should serve time in any case, be it for involuntary manslaughter or something, because it was his actions that eventually led to this situation. It doesn't mean that it doesn't matter who initiated the physical confrontation, but it matters only in regard to how many years he should get.

339 sattv4u2  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:55:58am

re: #335 mattand

I know I screwed this up yesterday, but didn't 911 basically tell him to chill and that the cops were on their way

Again, what a dispatcher told Zimmerman was "we don't need you to do that", hardly an 'order" to stop following Trayvon

340 Mocking Jay  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:56:41am

Oh this is just fucking insane.

Arizona Goes Birther: Secretary Of State Says It’s ‘Possible’ Obama Won’t Be On Ballot

Great way to co-opt democracy. Keep the other guy off the ballot.

341 sattv4u2  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:57:19am

re: #335 mattand

re: #339 sattv4u2

I know I screwed this up yesterday, but didn't 911 basically tell him to chill and that the cops were on their way

Again, what a dispatcher told Zimmerman was "we don't need you to do that", hardly an 'order" to stop following Trayvon

What the dispacther SHOULD have said (imho) is "sir, go back to your house/ vehicle and when the patrol car arrives I'll have them come talk to you"

342 moderatelyradicalliberal  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:57:52am

re: #326 Killgore Trout

Because legally it's important to determine who initiated the physical confrontation. Zimmerman lived in the complex and had every right to walk around, as did Travon. What you can't legally do is physically attack other people in public even if they are looking at you or watching where you go. So far there's nothing to contradict Zimmerman's story that Trayvon initiated the physical confrontation. Unless there's some evidence otherwise the charges against Zimmerman won't stand up in court.

1. You can't determine who initiated contact first. Unless there is an eye witness to the beginning of the fight and video. George Zimmerman's version of the story is self serving. It can't be contradicted because the other person was killed by Zimmerman and why he is on trail. Do you think he would admit being the aggressor?
2. Zimmerman wasn't "walking around". By his own admission on the 911, he was pursuing Trayvon because he profiled him as a "punk" or "goon" or whatever and was tired of "them" getting away with their crimes. He was not taking an evening stroll.
3. I actually wouldn't be surprised if your last sentence is true. Trayvon Martin as a young black man is exactly the kind of person that SYG laws were written to allow people to get away with killing.

343 Mattand  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:58:09am

re: #339 sattv4u2

I know I screwed this up yesterday, but didn't 911 basically tell him to chill and that the cops were on their way

Again, what a dispatcher told Zimmerman was "we don't need you to do that", hardly an 'order" to stop following Trayvon

Really? "We don't need you to do that" is not being told to stay away from Martin? You're really going to go with that?

344 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:58:10am

re: #340 It's a cookbook!

Oh this is just fucking insane.

Arizona Goes Birther: Secretary Of State Says It’s ‘Possible’ Obama Won’t Be On Ballot

Great way to co-opt democracy. Keep the other guy off the ballot.

Racist scumbag.

345 Simply Sarah  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:58:29am

My view on all this is that, to be completely honest, I'm less concerned about this case specifically than I am over the culture that allowed it to happen to start with. Namely things like our vigilante gun culture and the devaluing of the lives of PoC. Trayvon is dead and justice should be served over that, but there's no way to bring him back. I want to avoid future Trayvons, but that seems to be getting lost in the obsession over interpreting each and every little piece of evidence.

346 RogueOne  Fri, May 18, 2012 8:59:25am

Time to run, enjoy your day people

347 Lidane  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:00:05am

re: #340 It's a cookbook!

Oh this is just fucking insane.

Arizona Goes Birther: Secretary Of State Says It’s ‘Possible’ Obama Won’t Be On Ballot

Great way to co-opt democracy. Keep the other guy off the ballot.

I dare them to try to keep the President of the United States off the ballot. Let's see if they have the balls to do it.

348 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:00:13am

re: #345 Simply Sarah

I pretty much agree with this.

That being said, I think it's hilarious that the usual suspects are basically arguing that you can't legally punch someone who confronts you, but that it's A-OK to shoot someone who confronts you in the chest.

349 moderatelyradicalliberal  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:00:45am

re: #334 Kronocide

What if you spot a suspicious person in a truck following you?

Or what if you are a woman and it's a man following you? It looks different to most people then.

350 sattv4u2  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:00:49am

re: #343 mattand

Really? "We don't need you to do that" is not being told to stay away from Martin? You're really going to go with that?

Not solo!

Again, "we don't need you too,," is a far cry from "Don't do that"

351 Simply Sarah  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:01:40am

re: #344 May Day! May Day!

Racist scumbag.

Well, in this case I'm not sure Bennett himself is racist so much as he's totally cool with exploiting the racism of others to further his own goals. In many ways I find this even worse than him actually being racist.

352 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:02:56am

re: #351 Simply Sarah

Well, in this case I'm not sure Bennett himself is racist so much as he's totally cool with exploiting the racism of others to further his own goals. In many ways I find this even worse than him actually being racist.

Why would he not be racist? Has he a record of anti-racism, to mitigate his action, that is racist in practice?

353 Kronocide  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:03:15am

re: #336 Killgore Trout

I don't think you can legally attack them.

Maybe not. But the legality of shooting somebody after they start a fistfight with you is in question.

The prosecution will have sound standing to invoke SYG for Martin because he was being followed.

This whole case was initiated by Zim. I think that's pretty clear.

354 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:04:50am

Hey, black kids in Florida!

If a white guy comes up to you and starts asking you questions, like, where are you going with those skittles, and, do you live here, don't give him any backtalk!

Because, if you do, he might just shoot you!

355 moderatelyradicalliberal  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:05:27am

re: #348 iossarian

I pretty much agree with this.

That being said, I think it's hilarious that the usual suspects are basically arguing that you can't legally punch someone who confronts you, but that it's A-OK to shoot someone who confronts you in the chest.

THIS! A million times. You can shoot and killed someone in self defense, but you can't punch them in the nose.

America! Fuck, Yeah!

356 Buck  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:05:28am

re: #348 iossarian

I pretty much agree with this.

That being said, I think it's hilarious that the usual suspects are basically arguing that you can't legally punch someone who confronts you, but that it's A-OK to shoot someone who confronts you in the chest.

That is not what people are saying. You downgrade punching to confronting. No one has said it is Ok to shoot someone who simply confronts you.

Try: "can't legally punch someone who confronts you, but that it's A-OK to shoot someone who is punching you."

Of course I don't find it in the least bit hilarious.

357 Simply Sarah  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:05:47am

re: #352 May Day! May Day!

Why would he not be racist? Has he a record of anti-racism, to mitigate his action, that is racist in practice?

Yes, I need to rephrase what I said, since looking a second time it isn't what I meant at all. I have no idea how racist he actually is. He may be super-racist for all I know. What I had meant to be saying was that I see this act more likely coming as pandering to the birther crowd than something he is doing out of whatever racism he may hold. It may also go along with that, but I doubt it is the main factor in it.

358 Mattand  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:05:52am

re: #350 sattv4u2

Not solo!

Again, "we don't need you too,," is a far cry from "Don't so that"

You're basically saying that 911 said "Don't do that, but hey, whatever you think is appropriate, go for it."

I'm sorry, I'm sure you're a nice person, don't beat your goldfish, etc., but that's just frigging stupid. It's splitting hairs and looking for some kind of out to justify Martin getting shot.

359 moderatelyradicalliberal  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:07:15am

re: #350 sattv4u2

Not solo!

Again, "we don't need you too,," is a far cry from "Don't do that"

If a person went into medical distress and you called 911 and they told you they didn't need you to do something you were doing to help, wouldn't you stop? If you were already doing it, would you keep doing it?

360 sattv4u2  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:08:21am

re: #358 mattand

You're basically saying that 911 said "Don't do that, but hey, whatever you think is appropriate, go for it."

I'm sorry, I'm sure you're a nice person, don't beat your goldfish, etc., but that's just frigging stupid. It's splitting hairs and looking of some kind of out to justify Martin getting shot.

For the umpteenth (and last time from me),, 911 NEVER said "DON'T DO THAT"

And I've NEVER "looked for some kind of out to justify " ANYONE getting shot

361 Lidane  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:09:07am

Condi Rice, confirming what the rest of us already knew:

Condi, Fan Of Policy Not Politics, Says She Won’t Be Romney’s Veep

During a speech Thursday in Chicago, former Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice insisted that she will not be presumptive Republican nominee Mitt Romney’s running mate.

“Not going to happen,” Rice said. “I love policy, I don’t really love politics.”

In recent weeks, Rice has been pegged as a dark horse veep pick for the Republican ticket.

362 Simply Sarah  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:09:20am

re: #356 Buck

That is not what people are saying. You downgrade punching to confronting. No one has said it is Ok to shoot someone who simply confronts you.

Try: "can't legally punch someone who confronts you, but that it's A-OK to shoot someone who is punching you."

Of course I don't find it in the least bit hilarious.

SYG runs both ways. Even ignoring whether or not Zimmerman was justified under SYG, it seems that Trayvon very much could have been justified in punching him. Except people seem to be only talking about this as a one way street. If anything, it just shows how broken SYG is, as it apparently justifies escalation to lethal force for both parties should either one feel threatened.

363 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:10:05am

re: #361 Lidane

Condi Rice, confirming what the rest of us already knew:

Condi, Fan Of Policy Not Politics, Says She Won’t Be Romney’s Veep

Damn. So near and yet so far.

364 dragonfire1981  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:11:09am

re: #347 Lidane

I dare them to try to keep the President of the United States off the ballot. Let's see if they have the balls to do it.

I wonder what would happen if voters tried to write him in.

365 Buck  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:12:26am

re: #358 mattand

You're basically saying that 911 said "Don't do that, but hey, whatever you think is appropriate, go for it."

I'm sorry, I'm sure you're a nice person, don't beat your goldfish, etc., but that's just frigging stupid. It's splitting hairs and looking of some kind of out to justify Martin getting shot.

There is a chance that when told "we don't need you to do that" Zimmerman said OK, and stopped. A minute later in the same call Zimmerman said he "didn't know where the kid was". That could mean that he was no longer following him. Certainly it means he was no longer observing him.

Zimmerman then might be heading back to his car in order to drive and meet the police when they arrive. Martin's GF says she heard Martin initiate the conversation with Zimmerman. That could mean that Martin, feeling that he had been followed turned around and headed to the person who was following him in order to confront him.

366 sattv4u2  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:13:00am

re: #359 moderatelyradicalliberal

If a person went into medical distress and you called 911 and they told you they didn't need you to do something you were doing to help, wouldn't you stop? If you were already doing it, would you keep doing it?

I would tell the 911 operator that I am a trained and certified CPR provider and tell them what steps I have already initiated and what my observations of the current situation were

367 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:13:07am

re: #356 Buck

That is not what people are saying. You downgrade punching to confronting. No one has said it is Ok to shoot someone who simply confronts you.

If I felt threatened by someone confronting me, would it be OK for me to punch that person, if I felt that I would be defending myself?

368 Lidane  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:13:21am

re: #364 dragonfire1981

I wonder what would happen if voters tried to write him in.

When was the last time one of the major parties was barred from having a candidate on the Presidential ballot?

369 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:14:09am

re: #366 sattv4u2

I would tell the 911 operator that I am a trained and certified CPR provider and tell them what steps I have already initiated and what my observations of the current situation were

You didn't answer the question. If you told them you were doing something and they told you "we don't need you to do that", would you stop doing it, or not?

370 Gus  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:14:13am
371 Mattand  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:14:16am

re: #360 sattv4u2

For the umpteenth (and last time from me),, 911 NEVER said "DON'T DO THAT"

And I've NEVER "looked for some kind of out to justify " ANYONE getting shot

Sorry, boss. The only rational interpretation of 911's response to Zimmerman is he should stay out of it. Anything else is self-delusion.

372 Gus  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:14:44am
373 Buck  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:15:14am

re: #367 iossarian

If I felt threatened by someone confronting me, would it be OK for me to punch that person, if I felt that I would be defending myself?

Depend on what YOU mean by confronting. However, if it is in a public place and not your home... a simple confrontation is not an excuse to escalate to violence.

374 sattv4u2  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:15:58am

re: #369 iossarian

You didn't answer the question. If you told them you were doing something and they told you "we don't need you to do that", would you stop doing it, or not?

I would press them as to why they "don't need me to do that", being that I'm the one there and know whats transpiring

Thats stated, after I did advise them IF they told me to STOP DOING THAT, then I would stop

375 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:16:11am

re: #348 iossarian

I pretty much agree with this.

That being said, I think it's hilarious that the usual suspects are basically arguing that you can't legally punch someone who confronts you, but that it's A-OK to shoot someone who confronts you in the chest.

Good thing Herman Cain doesn't live in Florida...
/// :p

376 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:17:27am

re: #342 moderatelyradicalliberal

1. You can't determine who initiated contact first. Unless there is an eye witness to the beginning of the fight and video. George Zimmerman's version of the story is self serving. It can't be contradicted because the other person was killed by Zimmerman and why he is on trail. Do you think he would admit being the aggressor?

Because the burden of proof is on the prosecutor. They have to prove that Zimmerman's story is false. Zimmerman doesn't have to prove his innocence, they have to prove his guilt. It's the whole foundation of our justice system.

377 Kronocide  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:17:46am

re: #373 Buck

Depend on what YOU mean by confronting. However, if it is in a public place and not your home... a simple confrontation is not an excuse to escalate to violence.

But this wasn't a simple confrontation. Kid was being followed.

It's not OK to punch somebody when confronted. But it's OK to shoot somebody when punched (when you caused them to punch you).

Florida, the Sunshine State.

378 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:18:20am

re: #374 sattv4u2

I would press them as to why they "don't need me to do that", being that I'm the one there and know whats transpiring

Thats stated, after I did advise them IF they told me to STOP DOING THAT, then I would stop

So, if Zimmerman continued to follow Martin after being told "we don't need you to do that", without asking for clarification, you would agree that this was not the optimal course of action for him to take.

379 allegro  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:19:40am

re: #372 Gus

[Embedded content]

This is a HUGE deal here in Houston since the "not guilty" verdict in the trial of the first involved police officer. It really is pretty outrageous. Video clearly shows a number of cops beating the tar out of a kid who is on his face on the ground, entirely compliant. The jury apparently found the cop not guilty due to some bizarre explanation that he didn't know there was anything wrong with the situation.

380 moderatelyradicalliberal  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:19:58am

re: #366 sattv4u2

I would tell the 911 operator that I am a trained and certified CPR provider and tell them what steps I have already initiated and what my observations of the current situation were

I am also trained and certified in CPR. I work in a health clinic and we have medical emergencies all of the time. Being trained in CPR does not put you in charge of a medical emergency. I have also been trained in fire extinguisher use, but I ain't no fire fighter.

And you didn't answer my question.

381 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:20:17am

re: #378 iossarian

So, if Zimmerman continued to follow Martin after being told "we don't need you to do that", without asking for clarification, you would agree that this was not the optimal course of action for him to take.

I think most people would agree that it was a bad decision for Zimmerman to leave his truck but I'm pretty sure he was legally entitled to leave his truck and walk in his own neighborhood.

382 Buck  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:20:39am

re: #377 Kronocide

But this wasn't a simple confrontation. Kid was being followed.

It's not OK to punch somebody when confronted. But it's OK to shoot somebody when punched (when you caused them to punch you).

Florida, the Sunshine State.

I don't think that anyone can justify violence (punching someone) because they followed you. No one can cause you to initiate an assault.

383 sattv4u2  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:21:06am

re: #378 iossarian

So, if Zimmerman continued to follow Martin after being told "we don't need you to do that", without asking for clarification, you would agree that this was not the optimal course of action for him to take.

no, because he (Z) was never told to STOP doing it

Don't get me wrong. I think what Z did was dumb, but as others have stated, doing "dumb" ain't against the law

HE WAS NEVER TOLD TO STOP DOING DUMB!

384 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:21:35am

re: #381 Killgore Trout

I think most people would agree that it was a bad decision for Zimmerman to leave his truck but I'm pretty sure he was legally entitled to leave his truck and walk in his own neighborhood.

So was the dead kid. But of course you're very concerned about the legal rights of the guy who followed him and then shot him.

385 sattv4u2  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:22:18am

re: #380 moderatelyradicalliberal

I am also trained and certified in CPR. I work in a health clinic and we have medical emergencies all of the time. Being trained in CPR does not put you in charge of a medical emergency. I have also been trained in fire extinguisher use, but I ain't no fire fighter.

And you didn't answer my question.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

386 Simply Sarah  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:22:27am

re: #372 Gus

[Embedded content]

And this is why Trayvon's shooting needs to be dealt with in a serious manner. Because this is our culture. This is how people see violence against minorities.

387 moderatelyradicalliberal  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:22:49am

re: #373 Buck

Depend on what YOU mean by confronting. However, if it is in a public place and not your home... a simple confrontation is not an excuse to escalate to violence.

According to SYG, it is. It takes the Castle Doctrine out into the street and doesn't require you to be physically assaulted first or deescalate the situation. It allows you to use violence, up to deadly force if you feel threatened. That's why the law is stupid and apparently what even people who claim to support SYG don't understand.

388 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:23:37am

re: #382 Buck

I don't think that anyone can justify violence (punching someone) because they followed you. No one can cause you to initiate an assault.

I'm sure there are cases when someone has been cornered or aggressively pursued when a violent reaction would be allowed but so far there's no evidence of it in this case. Trayvon was not physically cornered or restrained from continuing his walk home.

389 Buck  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:24:23am

re: #377 Kronocide

Florida, the Sunshine State.

Please don't leave out Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, California, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, West Virginia, Wisconsin and Wyoming from your sarcastic scorn.

390 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:24:44am

re: #383 sattv4u2

no, because he (Z) was never told to STOP doing it

No, that's not what I asked. Above, you said that you would ask for clarification. By implication, that is the correct thing to do. Zimmerman didn't do this. Therefore his decision was not optimal.

Don't get me wrong. I think what Z did was dumb, but as others have stated, doing "dumb" ain't against the law

HE WAS NEVER TOLD TO STOP DOING DUMB!

Dumb? You call following an innocent kid through his neighborhood, confronting him despite being told that this was unnecessary, and then killing him in the ensuing scuffle "dumb"?

391 Simply Sarah  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:24:46am

re: #388 Killgore Trout

I'm sure there are cases when someone has been cornered or aggressively pursued when a violent reaction would be allowed but so far there's no evidence of it in this case. Trayvon was not physically cornered or restrained from continuing his walk home.

Again, SYG. The whole point of it is to remove a duty to retreat, so being cornered or restrained is not even remotely required.

392 Gus  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:24:48am

Jesus.

393 Mattand  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:24:48am

re: #388 Killgore Trout

I'm sure there are cases when someone has been cornered or aggressively pursued when a violent reaction would be allowed but so far there's no evidence of it in this case. Trayvon was not physically cornered or restrained from continuing his walk home.

Says who?

394 moderatelyradicalliberal  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:25:01am

re: #379 allegro

This is a HUGE deal here in Houston since the "not guilty" verdict in the trial of the first involved police officer. It really is pretty outrageous. Video clearly shows a number of cops beating the tar out of a kid who is on his face on the ground, entirely compliant. The jury apparently found the cop not guilty due to some bizarre explanation that he didn't know there was anything wrong with the situation.

That's another foundation of our justice system. Blacks can't really be victims, we can only victimize.

395 Gus  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:25:25am

re: #393 mattand

Says who?

We don't know what happened but I'm pretty sure I know what happened.

//

396 allegro  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:25:59am

re: #389 Buck

Please don't leave out Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, California, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, West Virginia, Wisconsin and Wyoming from your sarcastic scorn.

In fairness, Florida is the state where a woman who did not shoot her abusive husband in her home is about to do 20 years for it.

397 Mattand  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:26:12am

re: #390 iossarian

No, that's not what I asked. Above, you said that you would ask for clarification. By implication, that is the correct thing to do. Zimmerman didn't do this. Therefore his decision was not optimal.

Dumb? You call following an innocent kid through his neighborhood, confronting him despite being told that this was unnecessary, and then killing him in the ensuing scuffle "dumb"?

See? Everyone's at fault!

398 Kronocide  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:26:16am

re: #382 Buck

I don't think that anyone can justify violence (punching someone) because they followed you. No one can cause you to initiate an assault.

No threatening or intimidating behavior can justify a physical assault?

Conversely, a physical assault can justify a homocide?

This seems wholly inconsistent.

399 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:26:17am

Holy crap. Greece is plunging down a black hole with not only their economic problems but this:

Greek party most extreme of Europe's far right

Twenty-one members of Golden Dawn were sworn into Greece's Parliament on Thursday, making it arguably the most far-right party to enter a European national legislature since Nazi-era Germany.

Europe's financial crisis is changing the tone across the continent, with frustrated voters turning to extremists on both the right and left. None seem as extreme as Golden Dawn, whose leaders claim that the Nazis did not use gas chambers to kill death camp inmates during the Holocaust. The party _ which won 7 percent of the vote in a May 6 election _ says it wants to rid Greece of immigrants and plant landmines along the border with Turkey.

The new parliament will hold power just one day because the election left no party with enough votes to form a government, forcing repeat elections next month. Recent polls show falling support for Golden Dawn, so it's not certain to make it into parliament again. Still, many people across Europe are troubled.

"The Golden Dawn party is a dark stain on European politics," said Moshe Kantor, president of the European Jewish Congress. "For the first time in over six decades a seemingly long hidden Nazi ideology returned to power."

I never thought I would see the day that something like that would take place. Scary shit coming out of Europe.

400 moderatelyradicalliberal  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:26:31am

re: #381 Killgore Trout

I think most people would agree that it was a bad decision for Zimmerman to leave his truck but I'm pretty sure he was legally entitled to leave his truck and walk in his own neighborhood.

He wasn't just walking, he was pursuing Trayvon because he profile him as a criminal. You act like he was taking an evening stroll and he got jumped for no reason.

401 sattv4u2  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:26:44am

re: #390 iossarian

By implication, that is the correct thing to do. Zimmerman didn't do this. Therefore his decision was not optimal.

But not illegal (i.e., he didn't disobey a legal command)

Dumb? You call following an innocent kid through his neighborhood, confronting him despite being told that this was unnecessary, and then killing him in the ensuing scuffle "dumb"?

Yes, because again, it wasn't illegal too

402 Gus  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:26:48am

I'm being impartial which is why every word that comes out of my mouth is in defense of George Zimmerman with a few sprinkles of concern for Trayvon Martin.

//

403 Simply Sarah  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:28:38am

Look, if in the end all Zimmerman is guilty of is making some really foolish choices and he did nothing illegal, so be it. My issue here is that to a lot of people this has been, either explicitly or implicitly, something where they shrugged and basically went "Eh, he was just a black kid."

404 allegro  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:29:03am

re: #394 moderatelyradicalliberal

That's another foundation of our justice system. Blacks can't really be victims, we can only victimize.

Is it worthy to note that the city of Houston fired those cops after the incident and all of them were indicted. One of them, thus far, has been found not guilty after a trial, represented by Dick Deguerin. Justice may not have been served, but the city did the right thing.

405 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:29:17am

re: #391 Simply Sarah

Again, SYG. The whole point of it is to remove a duty to retreat, so being cornered or restrained is not even remotely required.

SYG may indeed be a shitty law but I'm not so sure SYG is even going to be a factor in this case. If Zimmerman's story is correct that he was walking back to his car and that trayvon doubled back and attacked him, beating him to the ground then it's a simple self defense. Z on the ground with Trayvon on top beating him. He took about 2 minutes of beating before shooting. If this is the case then he would be justified even without SYG.

406 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:29:49am

re: #399 NJDhockeyfan

Holy crap. Greece is plunging down a black hole with not only their economic problems but this:

Greek party most extreme of Europe's far right

I never thought I would see the day that something like that would take place. Scary shit coming out of Europe.

Yeah, crazy that there are politicians who would disregard material evidence concerning established historical facts in order to fit their racial prejudices, or that a substantial minority (around 25%) of the population would vote for them no matter what because of their own lunatic racism.

Wait, are we talking about Greece or the GOP now?

407 moderatelyradicalliberal  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:30:51am

re: #405 Killgore Trout

SYG may indeed be a shitty law but I'm not so sure SYG is even going to be a factor in this case. If Zimmerman's story is correct that he was walking back to his car and that trayvon doubled back and attacked him, beating him to the ground then it's a simple self defense. Z on the ground with Trayvon on top beating him. He took about 2 minutes of beating before shooting. If this is the case then he would be justified even without SYG.

Well at least you admit it. Trayvon had it coming.

408 moderatelyradicalliberal  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:31:52am

re: #403 Simply Sarah

Look, if in the end all Zimmerman is guilty of is making some really foolish choices and he did nothing illegal, so be it. My issue here is that to a lot of people this has been, either explicitly or implicitly, something where they shrugged and basically went "Eh, he was just a black kid."

A black kid that a lot of people are bending themselves in pretzels to say he had it coming without actually saying he has it coming.

409 Kronocide  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:32:09am

re: #389 Buck

Please don't leave out Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, California, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, West Virginia, Wisconsin and Wyoming from your sarcastic scorn.

There's not a law against it. I'll scorn Florida with my biting sarcasm as much as I wish. The rest of them should take heed.

410 Simply Sarah  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:32:59am

re: #405 Killgore Trout

SYG may indeed be a shitty law but I'm not so sure SYG is even going to be a factor in this case. If Zimmerman's story is correct that he was walking back to his car and that trayvon doubled back and attacked him, beating him to the ground then it's a simple self defense. Z on the ground with Trayvon on top beating him. He took about 2 minutes of beating before shooting. If this is the case then he would be justified even without SYG.

I'm not talking about SYG in relationship to Zimmerman. I'm talking about SYG in general and in relationship to Trayvon. Besides, wasn't SYG the reason given for not properly handling this case to start with?

411 Buck  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:33:55am

re: #398 Kronocide

No threatening or intimidating behavior can justify a physical assault?
Conversely, a physical assault can justify a homocide?
This seems wholly inconsistent.

Actually that makes perfect sense to me. You describe the basis for: "Sticks and stones can break my bones, but names will never hurt me."

412 Kronocide  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:34:47am

re: #399 NJDhockeyfan

Holy crap. Greece is plunging down a black hole with not only their economic problems but this:

Greek party most extreme of Europe's far right

I never thought I would see the day that something like that would take place. Scary shit coming out of Europe.

The parallels to the US are uncanny: chaotic economics conditions give rise to backwards ass thinking (Tea Party, xenophobic groups, etc). This can happen in any nation/state.

413 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:35:11am

re: #401 sattv4u2


By implication, that is the correct thing to do. Zimmerman didn't do this. Therefore his decision was not optimal.

But not illegal (i.e., he didn't disobey a legal command)

Again, if you actually answer the question that people are asking you, it helps. I didn't ask whether it was illegal, I asked whether it was optimal. We agree, it seems, that it was not.

Dumb? You call following an innocent kid through his neighborhood, confronting him despite being told that this was unnecessary, and then killing him in the ensuing scuffle "dumb"?

Yes, because again, it wasn't illegal too

There are other words than "dumb" and "illegal". How about "evil" for a start?

414 allegro  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:35:48am

One question important to ask is "Did Trayvon reasonably fear for his life?" Since the guy who was following him actually did kill him, the answer is pretty obviously "yes."

415 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:36:07am

re: #411 Buck

Actually that makes perfect sense to me. You describe the basis for: "Sticks and stones can break my bones, but names will never hurt me."

So, if you're in Florida, and surrounded by a gang of thugs, you have to wait until they start punching you before you open fire?

416 moderatelyradicalliberal  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:37:05am

re: #411 Buck

Actually that makes perfect sense to me. You describe the basis for: "Sticks and stones can break my bones, but names will never hurt me."

So you are arguing that a person who is being threatened or intimidated should wait until they are actually assaulted until they can respond with their own aggression? That's the exact opposite of what SYG says people shouldn't have to do, so I take it you are against SYG?

417 darthstar  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:37:22am

re: #412 Kronocide

The parallels to the US are uncanny: chaotic economics conditions give rise to backwards ass thinking (Tea Party, xenophobic groups, etc). This can happen in any nation/state.

Yep...want to know what would happen under a Teabagger/Romney government? See Greece. There are a handful of very rich people in Greece right now hoping the rest of the population doesn't come after them with torches.

418 darthstar  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:38:14am

Shit...need to skip off to the doctor...well, hobble, actually...I think I might have broken a bone in my foot and it hurts like hell...no, I don't know how I did it.

419 Kronocide  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:38:42am

re: #411 Buck

Actually that makes perfect sense to me. You describe the basis for: "Sticks and stones can break my bones, but names will never hurt me."

I know it makes perfect sense to you. But it's not called 'Sticks and Stones Law.'

It's very clear you don't think Martin was justified to feel threatened and respond with fisticuffs. But it's OK for Zim to shoot Martin after Martin started a fist fight.

That much is clear.

420 Buck  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:39:26am

re: #415 iossarian

So, if you're in Florida, and surrounded by a gang of thugs, you have to wait until they start punching you before you open fire?

You add "surrounded" now. There is no reason to think Martin was surrounded. However IF Zimmerman was on his back, then yes, he was not only being assaulted but up against the ground.

421 sattv4u2  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:39:47am

re: #413 iossarian

if you actually answer the question that people are asking you, it helps

I did answer it ,, multiple times. That you don't like/ accept the answer is different

There are other words than "dumb" and "illegal". How about "evil" for a start?

Whatever other words you care to use,,, as long as ILLEGAL isn't one of them, and after all, what this is going to come down to is if GZ did anything illegal, NOT if he did anything dumb, or evil, or ,,,,,,

422 Buck  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:41:23am

re: #419 Kronocide

I know it makes perfect sense to you. But it's not called 'Sticks and Stones Law.'

It's very clear you don't think Martin was justified to feel threatened and respond with fisticuffs. But it's OK for Zim to shoot Martin after Martin started a fist fight.

That much is clear.

Well, not OK, but if it happened as you describe it isn't 2nd degree murder.

423 Kronocide  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:41:37am

re: #420 Buck

You add "surrounded" now. There is no reason to think Martin was surrounded. However IF Zimmerman was on his back, then yes, he was not only being assaulted but up against the ground.

No, he just asked you a question. To which you didn't answer.

424 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:42:51am
re: #412 Kronocide

The parallels to the US are uncanny: chaotic economics conditions give rise to backwards ass thinking (Tea Party, xenophobic groups, etc). This can happen in any nation/state.

re: #417 darthstar

Yep...want to know what would happen under a Teabagger/Romney government? See Greece. There are a handful of very rich people in Greece right now hoping the rest of the population doesn't come after them with torches.

Comparing the Neo-Nazi/fascist/anti-Semitic group Golden Dawn to the Tea Party is a little over the top dontcha think?

425 Buck  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:43:49am

re: #423 Kronocide

No, he just asked you a question. To which you didn't answer.

It was not a random question made in a vacuum. I don't answer "Have you stopped beating your wife" style questions with yes/no.

426 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:44:03am

re: #424 NJDhockeyfan

Comparing the Neo-Nazi/fascist/anti-Semitic group Golden Dawn to the Tea Party is a little over the top dontcha think?

Nope, very similar actually.

Birtherism, "America first", rabid anti-immigration attitudes, know-nothing economic policy.

Pretty much the same bag.

427 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:44:57am

Have a great day all!

428 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:45:11am

re: #425 Buck

It was not a random question made in a vacuum. I don't answer "Have you stopped beating your wife" style questions.

My question was: do you have to wait until physical violence happens, in order to practice "self-defense"?

Or is the threat of violence enough?

429 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:45:57am

re: #410 Simply Sarah

I'm not talking about SYG in relationship to Zimmerman. I'm talking about SYG in general and in relationship to Trayvon. Besides, wasn't SYG the reason given for not properly handling this case to start with?

I'm not sure if the police or the original prosecutor cited SYG as a reason for not pressing charges. I know a lot of critics pounced on SYG almost immediately but I have seen any indication that authorities used it as a factor. There's been a lot of misinformation in this case.

430 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:47:18am

re: #381 Killgore Trout

I think most people would agree that it was a bad decision for Zimmerman to leave his truck but I'm pretty sure he was legally entitled to leave his truck and walk in his own neighborhood.

A sum of actions that are legal separately can in certain circumstances be criminal.

431 sattv4u2  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:49:17am

re: #429 Killgore Trout

I'm not sure if the police or the original prosecutor cited SYG as a reason for not pressing charges. I know a lot of critics pounced on SYG almost immediately but I have seen any indication that authorities used it as a factor. There's been a lot of misinformation in this case.

iirc, GZ's lawyer stated something to the effect that SYG wouldn'd be a factor in the case (i'm assuming he meant the defenses case)

432 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:50:26am

re: #426 iossarian

Nope, very similar actually.

Birtherism, "America first", rabid anti-immigration attitudes, know-nothing economic policy.

Pretty much the same bag.

That equals Holocaust denial, Nazi salutes, and violence? Are you serious?

433 Buck  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:50:50am

re: #428 iossarian

My question was: do you have to wait until physical violence happens, in order to practice "self-defense"?

Or is the threat of violence enough?

Right, but you snuck in the word surrounded.

If you are not cornered (surrounded) then you cannot simply justify initiating the violence because you feel threatened. There must be a something that you can point to that a reasonable person would see at the threat. You thinking that you are being followed is not a threat that can justify violence. I am not saying Martin had to retreat from Zimmerman, but this comes down to who initiated the actual violence.

434 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:52:03am

re: #432 NJDhockeyfan

That equals Holocaust denial, Nazi salutes, and violence? Are you serious?

You tell me the functional difference between birtherism, creationism and Holocaust denial.

Not the scale of the crime being covered up (though I would argue that lying about the origin of the entire planet is actually a pretty large-scale lie) but the practice of denying observed historical facts for political gain.

435 Kronocide  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:53:37am

re: #425 Buck

It was not a random question made in a vacuum. I don't answer "Have you stopped beating your wife" style questions with yes/no.

It wasn't a random question in a vacuum, nor was it a 'have you stopped beating your wife' question.

The word 'surrounded' was not 'sneaked in.'

It's a valid question, it's weird you're reacting to it this way.

436 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:54:11am

re: #433 Buck

Right, but you snuck in the word surrounded.

If you are not cornered (surrounded) then you cannot simply justify initiating the violence because you feel threatened. There must be a something that you can point to that a reasonable person would see at the threat. You thinking that you are being followed is not a threat that can justify violence. I am not saying Martin had to retreat from Zimmerman, but this comes down to who initiated the actual violence.

You should move to the US and vote for Romney. In fact, he might want to hire you for your etch-a-sketching skills.

437 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:54:32am

re: #434 iossarian

You tell me the functional difference between birtherism, creationism and Holocaust denial.

Not the scale of the crime being covered up (though I would argue that lying about the origin of the entire planet is actually a pretty large-scale lie) but the practice of denying observed historical facts for political gain.

They are associated with different phenomena. In case of birtherism and HD different, but related, with birtherism being still milder.

That said, the rhetoric about "scary shit coming out of Europe" is pretty much coming from a glass house.

438 Eventual Carrion  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:54:38am

re: #308 May Day! May Day!

Shameless.

Should be renamed to Spotted Dicks.

or Gobbler's Knob.

439 Buck  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:57:07am

re: #435 Kronocide

The word 'surrounded' was not 'sneaked in.'

How do you know? Are you iossarian? Can you read his mind?

Maybe you don't think it was?

Ya it was, and as proof, the word was missing when he ( iossarian ) restated the question.

440 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:58:29am

re: #439 Buck

How do you know? Are you iossarian? Can you read his mind.

Ya it was, and as proof, the word was missing when he ( iossarian ) restated the question.

PROOF.

OK, Buck, which is it.

Is it:

a) the "sticks and stones" rule, i.e., you can never initiate violence legally, no matter what threat you might perceive, or

b) the "reasonable threat" rule, i.e., if you feel threatened, you can initiate violence in self-defense?

441 Buck  Fri, May 18, 2012 9:59:49am

re: #436 iossarian

You should move to the US and vote for Romney. In fact, he might want to hire you for your etch-a-sketching skills.

If by "etch-a-sketching" you mean wiping out what is being talked about and changing the subject, then I can see you are pretty good at it.

442 Kronocide  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:01:00am

re: #439 Buck

What is wrong with you? I wasn't trying to read your mind but it seems you're seriously paranoid.

Iossarian's question was valid. The difficulty in answering can only be explained by paranoia, thinking you're getting put into a corner. Or something.

443 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:01:25am

re: #434 iossarian

You tell me the functional difference between birtherism, creationism and Holocaust denial.

For real? WOW

Birtherism is mainly a small amount of people who believe anything to progress their political ideology. Alex Jones type conspiracy theorists come to mind. Creationism is a religious belief shared by many faiths around the world, not particularly the Tea Party. I doubt I have to explain to you about what went on inside the Nazi death camps and who these Holocaust denial fools are.

444 Buck  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:03:30am

re: #440 iossarian

a) the "sticks and stones" rule, i.e., you can never initiate violence legally, no matter what threat you might perceive, or

b) the "reasonable threat" rule, i.e., if you feel threatened, you can initiate violence in self-defense?

Well, I might quibble with you wrongly restating what I said. You add the "no matter what threat you might perceive" part. However remove the "no matter part" and I am not sure why you can't see that both are true.

445 Obdicut  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:04:33am

re: #223 ggt

If you mean the language of the Romany people, it's Romani. However, there are subgroups that speak different forms of it, and it's gotten mixed up, in many cases, with the language of wherever they've been living.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

446 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:04:46am

re: #411 Buck

No threatening or intimidating behavior can justify a physical assault?
Conversely, a physical assault can justify a homocide?
This seems wholly inconsistent.

Actually that makes perfect sense to me. You describe the basis for: "Sticks and stones can break my bones, but names will never hurt me."

Buck, in this comment you were saying that no threatening or intimidating behavior can justify a physical assault.

But later on:

re: #433 Buck

...There must be a something that you can point to that a reasonable person would see at the threat. ...

You appear to be saying here that if threatened, it is OK to initiate an assault.

Which is it?

447 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:06:17am

re: #444 Buck

Well, I might quibble with you wrongly restating what I said. You add the "no matter what threat you might perceive" part. However remove the "no matter part" and I am not sure why you can't see that both are true.

OK, taking you at your word, I conclude that you believe that both:

a) you can never initiate violence legally

and

b) if you feel threatened, you can initiate violence in self-defense

are true?

448 Eventual Carrion  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:08:22am

re: #329 Killgore Trout

I don't think it would be legally considered stalking. You are allowed to observe other people in public. If you spot a suspicious person at the house next door you are allowed to go outside and look.

And if you ask them what they are doing and their response is "Fuck off" you have no other recourse other than to let the cops take care of things. You are not the law, the police are. I (a walking resident) have no obligation to tell some asswipe a fucking thing.

And from past reports about Zimm's temper this could be a plausible scenario:

Zimm: What are you doing here?

Martin: Fuck off!

Zimm (pulling his shirt aside to display his firepower): Answer me you little punk.

Martin lunges for the gun before this lunatic can plug him with lead. Battle ensues. We know the end.

449 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:09:50am

re: #443 NJDhockeyfan

For real? WOW

Birtherism is mainly a small amount of people who believe anything to progress their political ideology. Alex Jones type conspiracy theorists come to mind.

And the Arizona Secretary of State. And numerous other GOP politicians. And a large swathe of the GOP's voting support.

450 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:12:21am

re: #449 iossarian

And the Arizona Secretary of State. And numerous other GOP politicians. And a large swathe of the GOP's voting support.

Where are the concentration camps killing millions of Jews or are they just hidden from public?

451 Buck  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:13:00am

re: #446 iossarian

I see the phrase "threatening or intimidating behavior" as a way to describe an incredibly wide range of behaviour. I am trying to be more specific and clear. IMO the words "threatening or intimidating" is a wider range of behaviour than is covered by self defence. However, there is a much smaller subset of threatening behaviour that might make a person feel in fear of their life.

452 Obdicut  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:13:07am

re: #450 NJDhockeyfan

Where are the concentration camps killing millions of Jews or are they just hidden from public?

What the fuck, dude?

453 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:13:39am

re: #452 Obdicut

What the fuck, dude?

That's what I was asking.

454 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:14:20am

re: #450 NJDhockeyfan

Where are the concentration camps killing millions of Jews or are they just hidden from public?

Sigh - I specifically said that I was not talking about the scale of the crime being covered up or lied about, but the practice of denying known historical facts for political gain.

Please let's not get into "I am more aghast at the facts of the Holocaust than you".

455 Buck  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:14:57am

re: #448 RayFerd

And from past reports about Zimm's temper this could be a plausible scenario:

Zimm: What are you doing here?

Martin: Fuck off!

Zimm (pulling his shirt aside to display his firepower): Answer me you little punk.

And from the police interview with Martins GF, we know it didn't happen anything like that.

456 Obdicut  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:15:02am

re: #453 NJDhockeyfan

That's what I was asking.

No, dude, he cited real things: The sec of State of Arizona really is going birther. So are a lot of other GOP officials. So is a large number of GOP voters. This is reality.

Why the holy hell are you bringing up the Holocaust?

457 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:15:53am

re: #451 Buck

I see the phrase "threatening or intimidating behavior" as a way to describe an incredibly wide range of behaviour. I am trying to be more specific and clear. IMO the words "threatening or intimidating" is a wider range of behaviour than is covered by self defence. However, there is a much smaller subset of threatening behaviour that might make a person feel in fear of their life.

So basically, whatever a black kid does in a confrontation is a justification for lethal force, whereas whatever a white guy does in a confrontation is not a justification for punching him?

458 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:16:29am

re: #456 Obdicut

No, dude, he cited real things: The sec of State of Arizona really is going birther. So are a lot of other GOP officials. So is a large number of GOP voters. This is reality.

Why the holy hell are you bringing up the Holocaust?

re: #434 iossarian

You tell me the functional difference between birtherism, creationism and Holocaust denial.

459 Buck  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:16:35am

re: #457 iossarian

So basically, whatever a black kid does in a confrontation is a justification for lethal force, whereas whatever a white guy does in a confrontation is not a justification for punching him?

Nope, nothing like that at all.

460 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:16:40am

re: #450 NJDhockeyfan

Where are the concentration camps killing millions of Jews or are they just hidden from public?

I agree that birtherism and HD are not politically the same (though they come from the roughly same big paranoid field). But just because birtherism, anti-choice ideology, homophobia and things like that are different from Holocaust denial does not mean they aren't scary shit or not extremism by themselves.

461 Obdicut  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:16:41am

re: #453 NJDhockeyfan

Oh, I see, for some reason the comparison of birtherism to Holocaust denial rankles you.

It's a good comparison. There is a preponderance of evidence that Obama was born in Hawaii, no reason at all to think he wasn't. A large amount of the belief that he's not stems from racism.

There is a preponderance of evidence that Jews were killed by the millions in the Holocaust, and no reason at all to they think weren't. A large amount of Holocaust denial stems from racism.

462 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:17:13am

re: #456 Obdicut

No, dude, he cited real things: The sec of State of Arizona really is going birther. So are a lot of other GOP officials. So is a large number of GOP voters. This is reality.

Why the holy hell are you bringing up the Holocaust?

I compared birtherism to Holocaust denial above, since they are both examples of lying about a known historical fact for political gain.

Of course, that opened me up to the "you trivialize the Holocaust at your own risk" counter-attack. Predictable enough.

463 b_sharp  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:18:50am

re: #458 NJDhockeyfan

He's bringing up denial.

Holocaust denial is the most well known and universally reviled case.

464 Buck  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:19:08am

re: #462 iossarian

Maybe comparing Birtherism and Thrutherism fits better than Holocaust denial. Both have at their origin political motives.

465 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:19:09am

re: #459 Buck

Nope, nothing like that at all.

OK, then you tell me what the range of behavior that justifies physical assault is. Because so far I haven't heard anything like a coherent definition, other than "whatever Zimmerman was doing doesn't count, and whatever Martin was doing does".

466 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:19:54am

re: #461 Obdicut

re: #462 iossarian

I disagree that a political comparison is meaningful (intellectually that is the same stuff). Again, these are things associated with different political phenomena. If forced to choose between HD and birthers, birthers are a no-brainer (tho I would like not to be forced to choose between kinds of shit in the first place).

467 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:20:29am

re: #461 Obdicut

Oh, I see, for some reason the comparison of birtherism to Holocaust denial rankles you.

Not even in the same ball park. Birtherism is more close to 9-11 troofers IMO. Conspiracy kooks are out there and I would say 99% of everyone knows it's bullshit but it doesn't even touch the insanity of Holocaust deniers.

468 Obdicut  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:21:37am

re: #466 May Day! May Day!

re: #462 iossarian

I disagree that a political comparison is meaningful (intellectually that is the same stuff).

I wasn't making a political comparison.

Again, these are things associated with different phenomena. If forced to choose between HD and birthers, birthers ate a no-brainer (tho I would like not to be forced to choose between the kinds of shit in the first place).

Well, the choice is unlikely to come up. But in both cases, it's people avoiding a preponderance of evidence, and racism and animus towards a group plays a part in both cases.

469 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:21:41am

re: #467 NJDhockeyfan

I would say 99% of everyone knows it's bullshit

36% of GOP voters, dude.

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

470 Obdicut  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:22:07am

re: #467 NJDhockeyfan

Not even in the same ball park. Birtherism is more close to 9-11 troofers IMO. Conspiracy kooks are out there and I would say 99% of everyone knows it's bullshit but it doesn't even touch the insanity of Holocaust deniers.

What do you think about such a large percentage of GOP voters being, in your words, 'conspiracy kooks'?

471 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:22:30am

re: #467 NJDhockeyfan

Not even in the same ball park. Birtherism is more close to 9-11 troofers IMO. Conspiracy kooks are out there and I would say 99% of everyone knows it's bullshit but it doesn't even touch the insanity of Holocaust deniers.

9-11 truth, HD, birtherism, evolution denial - these are all forms of conspiratorial denial. Intellectually they are the same. It's politics where the difference lies.

472 b_sharp  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:24:35am

There is an essential difference between a black kid being followed in what is essentially a white neighbourhood in white dominated world and a white kid being followed in the same environment and it's in how the kid perceives the threat and prepares to deal with it.

473 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:26:32am

re: #468 Obdicut

I wasn't making a political comparison.

I didn't say you were. However you were making an intellectual comparison, which is irrelevant to the political situation. AGW denial is from the same intellectual plane as HD, but it would be strange to point to the US AGW-denying pols as a counter-balance to Nazis somewhere in Europe.

474 Lidane  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:27:59am

Ha! This is awesome. Spoke to the recruiter by phone. My previous salary didn't even make him flinch, and they're going to factor in the MBA in addition to it, since that previous salary was without the degree. Plus, since they see me in a sales/analysis role, I'd have a commission too. :D

Now I just have to carve out the job for myself and negotiate the base salary. Awesome.

475 Buck  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:28:34am

re: #465 iossarian

OK, then you tell me what the range of behavior that justifies physical assault is. Because so far I haven't heard anything like a coherent definition, other than "whatever Zimmerman was doing doesn't count, and whatever Martin was doing does".

Well, you can hear anything you want, but no where was that said. It seems to me that you are trying to make me fit the racist profile you imagine for me.

Someone pulling a gun on you might be an example of threatening behaviour that justifies physical assault.

476 sattv4u2  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:32:01am

re: #474 Lidane

DRINKS ON YOU!!!!

//
Really ,, congrats

477 Eventual Carrion  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:32:34am

re: #388 Killgore Trout

I'm sure there are cases when someone has been cornered or aggressively pursued when a violent reaction would be allowed but so far there's no evidence of it in this case. Trayvon was not physically cornered or restrained from continuing his walk home.

You don't know that.

478 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:32:36am

re: #475 Buck

Well, you can hear anything you want, but no where was that said. It seems to me that you are trying to make me fit the racist profile you imagine for me.

Someone pulling a gun on you might be an example of behaviour that justifies physical assault.

I don't have a particular profile of you, I'm just trying to understand why you seem to be fairly sure that Martin was not justified in punching Zimmerman, but that Zimmerman was justified in shooting Martin.

Anyway, per your example, if Zimmerman had been pulling out his gun when he confronted Martin, that would have justified Martin punching him, is that what you're saying?

479 Lidane  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:35:31am

re: #476 sattv4u2

DRINKS ON YOU!!!

//
Really ,, congrats

Heh. Thanks.

All I can think about with this news is that I'll be able to get back on my feet faster, paying down my student loans, saving for the future, etc. I want this so badly I can taste it.

480 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:37:07am

re: #479 Lidane

Heh. Thanks.

All I can think about with this news is that I'll be able to get back on my feet faster, paying down my student loans, saving for the future, etc. I want this so badly I can taste it.

That's fantastic.

Still lots of problems with how higher ed is structured/financed in the US, but when it works, it WORKS!

481 sattv4u2  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:37:54am

re: #478 iossarian

I am NOT blaming Trayvon, NOR am I absolving GZ

BUT

you seem to be fairly sure Martin was not justified in punching Zimmerman

Having some asswipe approach you is not a reason (in and of itself) to punch them

, but that Zimmerman was justified in shooting Martin.

Having someone on top of you punching you in the head is

if Zimmerman had been pulling out his gun when he confronted Martin, that would have justified Martin punching him,

Absolutely,,, not prudent, but justified

482 gwangung  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:38:35am

re: #478 iossarian

I don't have a particular profile of you, I'm just trying to understand why you seem to be fairly sure that Martin was not justified in punching Zimmerman, but that Zimmerman was justified in shooting Martin.

Anyway, per your example, if Zimmerman had been pulling out his gun when he confronted Martin, that would have justified Martin punching him, is that what you're saying?

I'd say if Zimmerman grabbed Martin or even blocked his progress, that's an aggressive move that can be taken as justification. I mean, grabbing would be actual battery....

483 Kronocide  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:39:10am

This case will probably set precedent for Come At Me Bro law.

Or not.

484 iossarian  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:40:42am

re: #481 sattv4u2

Absolutely,,, not prudent, but justified

OK, that's all I needed to hear.

On that note, I'm out for a bit!

485 Eventual Carrion  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:43:38am

re: #450 NJDhockeyfan

Where are the concentration camps killing millions of Jews or are they just hidden from public?

Those came after the years or ridicule and second class citizenship rules. It wasn't the first solution, it was the final solution.

486 Eventual Carrion  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:44:34am

re: #451 Buck

I see the phrase "threatening or intimidating behavior" as a way to describe an incredibly wide range of behaviour. I am trying to be more specific and clear. IMO the words "threatening or intimidating" is a wider range of behaviour than is covered by self defence. However, there is a much smaller subset of threatening behaviour that might make a person feel in fear of their life.

Like having a gun leveled at their chest?

487 Eventual Carrion  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:45:23am

re: #455 Buck

And from the police interview with Martins GF, we know it didn't happen anything like that.

You got the transcript of that handy?

488 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:48:23am

Sorry I missed this earlier. I had this to say on a page about gay marriage a couple of weeks ago:

Nothing, but nothing, can get these "traditional" authorities into a feces-flinging rage like gay rights.
There is more to it than a bunch of inbreds defending their own bigotry. Homophobia is by far the most important social control mechanism used to manipulate young men in this country, particularly those from the working class. How do you induce a group of strapping youngsters to do back-breaking labor or destroy themselves in football practice when they would rather be listening to music or partying or doing practically anything else?

One way, of course, would be to pay them a decent wage, which will induce all sorts of people to do all sorts of things. However, if you're a greedy, soul-dead cynic who still resents the abolition of slavery, there is another option. You can tell them that the failure to perform like a beast of burden on cue will make them "soft" or "girly-men," "pussies," "wimps," and, of course, the horror of horrors and the ultimate goal of all such invective, "faggots."
It has worked profitably for centuries and now it is being torn down from its very foundations. (emphasis added)

489 Buck  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:50:04am

re: #478 iossarian

you seem to be fairly sure that Martin was not justified in punching Zimmerman, but that Zimmerman was justified in shooting Martin.

Wrong again.

Do me a favour and stop telling me what I think.

RIGHT NOW, based on the information and evidence I have seen, I do NOT think that Zimmerman was justified in shooting Martin. I especially don't think he should have been walking around with a loaded gun. I don't think ANYONE who has not been properly trained should be out and about with a loaded gun. It is dangerous for them and me.

With that said, I also don't think it is a hate crime. I don't think it is racism. I don't think Martin was being hunted "like a dog". I don't think it is Murder 2.

490 sattv4u2  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:50:42am

re: #486 RayFerd

Like having a gun leveled at their chest?

Question is, was the gun leveled at a chest before or after the physical confrontation started

Again ,,, [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

491 Buck  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:55:12am

re: #487 RayFerd

You got the transcript of that handy?

You can search for it. She says the initial contact went like this:

"Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.'

492 Buck  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:57:35am

re: #482 gwangung

if Zimmerman grabbed Martin or even blocked his progress

Of course, but that is a big if.

493 gwangung  Fri, May 18, 2012 10:58:38am

re: #490 sattv4u2

Question is, was the gun leveled at a chest before or after the physical confrontation started

Again ,,, [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

And if Zimmerman gave Martin a chance to back off or had an opportunity to give him a chance. As said before, details matter....though as Buck seemed to have said, the matter stems from Zimmerman's lack of responsibility about his gun...

494 gwangung  Fri, May 18, 2012 11:00:43am

re: #492 Buck

Of course, but that is a big if.

Oh, yeah....I'm only dealing in scenarios...but those are things that might be established in a trial, and should be established...

495 Obdicut  Fri, May 18, 2012 11:01:04am

re: #489 Buck

I actually find that to be a completely reasonable statement, oddly enough.

496 JEA62  Fri, May 18, 2012 12:11:22pm

It very simple. They're positive gays will turn their kids queer. Or even worse, turn them queer.


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