Not This Again - Wingnut ‘Expert’ Zooms In, Sees Pixels, Uncovers Obama Photoshop Phraud

These pixels are shopped, I are an expert
Wingnuts • Views: 28,040

Not this again.

The idea of President Obama “photoshopping” images in order to carry out some kind of nefarious scheme has clearly gotten a death grip on the wingnut zeitgeist. They seem to assign some kind of mystical power to this meme; they believe that if they can finally convince the world at large that these pictures have been doctored, Barack Obama will be forced to hang his head in shame, immediately resign the presidency, and live the rest of his miserable life in his true country of birth, Kenya.

It’s wingnut crack. They can’t stop doing it, even as it destroys their brains.

Tonight’s episode in the Parade of Ridiculous Photoshop Outrages is brought to us by the always wacky American Thinker, where once again we have a so-called “Photoshop expert” who doesn’t seem to understand how JPEG compression works, zooming in and analyzing the pixels to impress the rubes: The Illusion of Obama’s Bin Laden Raid Situation Room Leadership.

I don’t even know what to say about this kind of bizarre right wing craziness any more. There’s no point in debunking it; first, it’s too freaking easy, and second, they just don’t care and it doesn’t stop them from repeating it endlessly with less self-awareness than your average parrot.

But here’s all you need to know about American Thinker’s “Photoshop expert” Mara Zebest: she’s been a Birther since 2008, and joined Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio’s “Cold Case Posse” to push the crackpot theory that Obama faked his birth certificate. So her credentials are impeccable for an appearance at American Thinker, but “Photoshop expert” is a bit of a stretch.

I have to say, though — Floating Hand Problem is a great band name.

Also see
Debunking Mara Zebest Amazon Customer Discussions: Mara Zebest - Oh Dear!

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354 comments
1 Targetpractice  Wed, May 23, 2012 10:25:13pm

When they're not pimping old pictures/papers as "proof" that Obama's a liar, they try their hand at amateur photo analysis. I'm not sure I could ever dedicate myself to hating a person so much that I'd make a complete ass of myself in the process.

2 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 23, 2012 10:27:03pm

I don't see what value Obama was supposed to gain from systematic photo-shopping. The risks would far outweigh any potential gains. To believe this 'photoshopping meme', you have to believe Barack Obama is an evil genius who can't do a cost-benefit analysis.

3 CriticalDragon1177  Wed, May 23, 2012 10:27:58pm

Charles Johnson,

Are they ever going to give up on this Birther nonsense? At times I wish they would just give up and move on, if there was anything to the claim that Obama was born outside of the US and thus ineligible for the presidency, it would have been found by now. The only reason I have to want them to continue is that it will decrease the Republican's chances of winning in come the presidential election in November.

4 Kragar  Wed, May 23, 2012 10:30:15pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

I don't see what value Obama was supposed to gain from systematic photo-shopping. The risks would far outweigh any potential gains. To believe this 'photoshopping meme', you have to believe Barack Obama is an evil genius who can't do a cost-benefit analysis.

It makes as much sense as their voter fraud nonsense.

5 CriticalDragon1177  Wed, May 23, 2012 10:34:09pm

Dark_Falcon,

Or he'd have to be incredibly stupid at this point. If he's bound to get caught, photoshopping something would not be a very smart move.

6 Kragar  Wed, May 23, 2012 10:35:18pm

To answer the question they pose in their first picture, "Whose pants are these?", they're the panels to his jackets, you nitwits.

7 Batman  Wed, May 23, 2012 10:45:26pm

What is on that missing chunk of ear, Obama?? WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO HIDE???

8 Batman  Wed, May 23, 2012 10:45:56pm

For now on our rallying cry will be, "Show us the ear chunk!"

9 Kragar  Wed, May 23, 2012 10:47:23pm

re: #8 Batman

For now on our rallying cry will be, "Show us the ear chunk!"

GIVE US EAR CHUNKS OR GIVE US DEATH!!!

10 Lidane  Wed, May 23, 2012 10:47:50pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

To believe this 'photoshopping meme', you have to believe Barack Obama is an evil genius who can't do a cost-benefit analysis.

The hilarious thing is, the same people who believe that Barack Obama is an evil, manipulative genius who can't do a cost-benefit analysis and who is perpetuating a fraud on America also believe that he's a complete incompetent who can't talk in complete sentences without a teleprompter and that he faked his college and law school educations.

He can't be both. Either he's an evil genius or an empty suit who can't string words together.

11 freetoken  Wed, May 23, 2012 10:48:03pm

re: #9 Kragar

Friends, Americans, Countrymen, lend me your ear chunks...

12 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 23, 2012 10:48:37pm

re: #4 Kragar

It makes as much sense as their voter fraud nonsense.

It depends: James O'Keefe's "Voter Fraud Expose'" was a crock of crap, but Republicans had valid reasons for having their campaigns use anti-fraud measures in Illinois in 2010. The difference is, when Mark Kirk's sent people to watch for fraud, he didn't make a huge deal out of it, or even talk about it himself. His people were actually just looking for fraud and were happy to find little of it, whereas O'Keefe's sole concern was tarring Democrats.

13 AK-47%  Wed, May 23, 2012 10:51:30pm

re: #10 Lidane

He can't be both. Either he's an evil genius or an empty suit who can't string words together.

He is evil. that is the point. A Higher Truth, so to speak. One that requires no facts to prove it.

The exact kind of evil he is depends on the situation at hand and the "evidence" that can be assembled to damn him.

14 Kragar  Wed, May 23, 2012 10:52:55pm

re: #12 Dark_Falcon

It depends: James O'Keefe's "Voter Fraud Expose'" was a crock of crap, but Republicans had valid reasons for having their campaigns use anti-fraud measures in Illinois in 2010. The difference is, when Mark Kirk's sent people to watch for fraud, he didn't make a huge deal out of it, or even talk about it himself. His people were actually just looking for fraud and were happy to find little of it, whereas O'Keefe's sole concern was tarring Democrats.

The main issue being the type of fraud O'Keefe and the T-Baggers are worried about have zero chance of working. There is no way to commit the type of fraud they're worried and swing an election in any meaningful way.

Like their accusations of photoshopping. It makes no sense to fake the photos.

15 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 23, 2012 10:53:15pm

Floating Hand Problem is a great band name.

16 Lidane  Wed, May 23, 2012 10:58:43pm

re: #15 Charles Johnson

Floating Hand Problem is a great band name.

Also a great rotating headline. Haha.

17 freetoken  Wed, May 23, 2012 11:02:33pm

What's scary are all the comments over there - from those readily absorbing this idiocy.

18 AK-47%  Wed, May 23, 2012 11:02:43pm

Willie and the Floating Hand Jive

19 Lidane  Wed, May 23, 2012 11:04:53pm

re: #17 freetoken

What's scary are all the comments over there - from those readily absorbing this idiocy.

The 2012 GOP base, writ large. It's scary.

20 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, May 23, 2012 11:07:06pm

BACK AND TO THE LEFT
BACK AND TO THE LEFT
BACK AND TO THE LEFT
BACK AND TO THE LEFTBACK AND TO THE LEFTBACK AND TO THE LEFT
BACK AND TO THE LEFTBACK AND TO THE LEFTBACK AND TO THE LEFT
BACK AND TO THE LEFTBACK AND TO THE LEFTBACK AND TO THE LEFT

21 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 23, 2012 11:09:44pm

Well, its been fun, and Floral it was good to see you here tonight, but I must get to bed. Goodnight, all.

22 freetoken  Wed, May 23, 2012 11:12:30pm

re: #15 Charles Johnson

Floating Hand Problem is a great band name.

Definitely a Therrmin in that band...

Floating Hands:

Youtube Video
23 AK-47%  Wed, May 23, 2012 11:15:31pm

Arp synthesizers. On eight-track cassette, I wager...in quadrophonic sound!!!

24 freetoken  Wed, May 23, 2012 11:15:39pm

re: #22 freetoken

pimf "theremin"

25 AK-47%  Wed, May 23, 2012 11:16:03pm

they're mine!

26 EdDantes  Wed, May 23, 2012 11:26:53pm

If Obama had been born in the United States, he would have all of his ears.

27 AK-47%  Wed, May 23, 2012 11:37:17pm

They're foreign ears.

28 EdDantes  Wed, May 23, 2012 11:44:41pm

re: #27 Expand Your Ground

They're foreign ears.

Actually, he has mentioned that he is not defficient in that area. :)

29 AK-47%  Wed, May 23, 2012 11:49:37pm

because he imported them!

30 EdDantes  Thu, May 24, 2012 12:06:16am

The Chinese are intelligent people so why do they continue to do this?

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

31 Kragar  Thu, May 24, 2012 12:10:24am

Uh oh.

Here is a picture of these articles author

Image: wndpresser.jpg

and this is what you see when you zoom in on her ear:

Image: ear_chunk.jpg

Its obvious what this means.

32 freetoken  Thu, May 24, 2012 12:35:33am

From the golden years of the swinging 30's, I believe this piece is by Michel Warlop and his Son Orchestre

MP3 Audio
33 Kragar  Thu, May 24, 2012 12:41:04am

Nuclear sub burns at Portsmouth Naval Shipyard

34 researchok  Thu, May 24, 2012 1:17:35am

Morning, all

35 researchok  Thu, May 24, 2012 1:20:49am

re: #32 freetoken

Good stuff

36 Aye Pod  Thu, May 24, 2012 2:04:24am

OMG where to begin with this unimaginable tripefest? This person calls their self an "Adobe expert" and doesn't understand about blurring and light scattering?

37 freetoken  Thu, May 24, 2012 2:07:00am

re: #36 Aye Pod

Science iz hard.

38 Aye Pod  Thu, May 24, 2012 2:18:34am

re: #37 freetoken

As ever.

PS Going to the bathroom is hard for the "American Thinker" in the illustration as well it seems...what an inadvertently hilarious picture.

39 Kragar  Thu, May 24, 2012 2:21:32am

SWEET ODIN'S NIPPLE, THEY'RE BACK!

Youtube Video
40 Aye Pod  Thu, May 24, 2012 3:12:11am

Seems apt somehow:

Black Secret Technology - A Guy Called Gerald

Youtube Video
41 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 24, 2012 3:23:03am

'Morning, all. Vaguely remember American Thinker as quite unsavory. Where does it fall on the Derp Scale? The proliferation of noble-sounding journals and Passionately Patriotic Organizations is becoming unmanageable.

42 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 24, 2012 3:51:21am

the only picture I remember seeing was Obama and all of 'em sitting around a table.

HOw are you all this morning?

43 AK-47%  Thu, May 24, 2012 3:52:41am

re: #30 EdDantes

The Chinese are intelligent people so why do they continue to do this?

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

It is how The Party views Truth: there are Higher Truths, namely the ones that correspond to the Party Line. These Higher Truths trump objective facts.

Sound familiar?

44 RogueOne  Thu, May 24, 2012 4:05:15am

Morning folks.

Best Ex-President Ever!:

Bill Clinton SURROUNDED BY PORN STARS
[Link: www.tmz.com...]

Bill Clinton just out-Clinton'd himself -- posing with two famous porn stars in Monaco moments ago ... and one of them's a real up-and-comer.

Clinton's in a Monte Carlo casino right now for a special "Nights in Monaco" gala event -- and several celebrities are in attendance ... including Diane Kruger, Joshua Jackson ... and a BUNCH OF PORN STARS.

The two porn stars on Bill's arms are Tasha Reign (left) and Brooklyn Lee -- AVN's "Best New Starlet" in porn.

Brooklyn -- who just posted the pic on her Twitter account -- also just won the award for "Best Sex Scene" in "Mission Asspossible." As for Tasha's film credits ... those include "Baby Got Boobs 8" and "Farm Girls Gone Bad."

Image: 0523-bill-clinton-avn-stars-5.jpg

45 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 4:06:14am

Uh oh, I expect lots of gnashing of teeth on this one from the usual suspects:

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

Amnesty International condemned the United States on Wednesday for the "unlawful" commando raid that killed Osama bin Laden in his lair in Pakistan.

"The US administration made clear that the operation had been conducted under the US's theory of a global armed conflict between the US and al-Qaeda in which the US does not recognise the applicability of international human rights law," the human rights group said in its annual report.

Several points (aside from the obvious: I hope it's not taken out of context):

1. According to the officials OBL could have been captured during the operation in principle, which certainly puts it within law. I'll stick to this until it's disproven, but AI doesn't have to.

2. So whether or not the killing of OBL was lawful is conditional, and thus debatable, depending on one's interpretation of facts, which are still vague at this point.

3. An opinion by AI on legal matters differing from ours does not dicredit AI, nor does our support of the bin Laden operation in itself makes it lawful beyond reproach. Just because we may think of something as a no-brainer doesn't mean that an objective and disinterested observer will agree that it is necessarily lawful.

4. AI's value is in stating facts about abuses of human rights worldwide. One need not necessary pay attention to their interpretation of the international law to appreciate what they're doing, nor are their interpretations binding.

46 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 24, 2012 4:06:46am
Hewlett-Packard to cut 27,000 jobs by the end of 2014
HP employs about 350,000 people worldwide and about 20,000 in the UK. A spokesman said it was too early to say exactly where the job cuts would hit, but no part of the business would escape some losses.

"We have not yet announced specific plans with regards to specific locations. We do expect the workforce reduction to impact just about every business and region," the spokesman said.

47 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 24, 2012 4:07:46am

re: #44 RogueOne

Morning folks.

Best Ex-President Ever!:

Bill Clinton SURROUNDED BY PORN STARS
[Link: www.tmz.com...]

Image: 0523-bill-clinton-avn-stars-5.jpg

I can't see either of his ears in that picture.

48 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 24, 2012 4:10:10am

Thanks! anti-vaxxers!

/gah

WHO expected to launch 'emergency plan' to eradicate polio

Bruce Aylward, head of the WHO's polio eradication campaign, said: "Over the last 24 months on three continents - in Europe, in Africa and in Asia - we have seen horrific explosive outbreaks of the disease that affected adults, and in some cases 50% of them died.

"What it reminded people is that, if eradication fails, we are going to see an huge and vicious upsurge of this disease with consequences that it is very difficult even to foresee right now."
-----
She says the WHO hopes to shake donor countries out of their complacency and support one last effort at eradication. The WHO believes that with one last push, the disease could be eradicated globally, she says.

It is thought conflict and a lack of trust in vaccinations mean fewer children are being immunized.

Polio is a highly infectious disease caused by a virus. It invades the nervous system, and can cause total paralysis in a matter of hours.

One in 200 infections leads to irreversible paralysis, usually in the legs. Among those paralysed, 5% to 10% die when their breathing muscles become immobilized.

49 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 24, 2012 4:13:42am
DNA to shed light on yeti claims
The project will focus on an archive of remains held at the Lausanne museum that was assembled by Bernard Heuvelmans, a Belgian-French biologist who investigated reported yeti sightings from 1950 up to his death in 2001.

Other institutions and individuals will also be asked to send in details of any possible yeti material.

Aside from the yeti question, Prof Sykes said he hoped the project would add to the growing body of knowledge on the interaction between different human species in the past.

WHY?

50 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 4:15:52am

re: #49 ggt

WHY?

Why what?

51 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 24, 2012 4:21:13am

re: #49 ggt

WHY?

Because the truth is out there.

52 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 24, 2012 4:25:58am

re: #50 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Why what?

Why study the Yeti --?

Is it so important -- ?

Is it just because some nut will pay for it and the researchers can have a job for another year?

It just seems there are more pressing matters at the current time.

53 Obdicut  Thu, May 24, 2012 4:30:21am

re: #41 Decatur Deb

It's highly derpy, cloaked in a thin veneer of intellectualism.

54 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 24, 2012 4:34:13am

There is a video out there in YouTube land from some total freaking maniac named Polland, who makes the claim the EVERY SINGLE PHOTO EVER PUBLISHED of Obama is a fake. To "prove" this, he Photoshops Obama out of the pictures and then shows how easy it is to put him back in.

No I'm not making this up.

55 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 24, 2012 4:36:36am

Will there ever be enough coffee?

56 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 24, 2012 4:40:38am

re: #53 Obdicut

It's highly derpy, cloaked in a thin veneer of intellectualism.

Commentary Magazine used to be highly intellectual and academic, with literary reviews and highfalutin' articles with a buncha footnotes and stuff. It's plunged, crashed and burned in the desolate canyon of La Derpita.

57 Obdicut  Thu, May 24, 2012 4:43:41am

re: #56 Learned Mother of Zion

Yep. My friend Uri used to write for it; now he has to explain that it used to not be a festering pile of contemptible crap.

Hey, I wanted to ask you about something; you said the other day that only a small minority of Haredim are not Zionist, but it was my impression that most of the major groups of Haredim were anti-Zionist, at least to the extent of being against Israel's existence as a secular state, rather than an explicitly religious one. Can you explicate any more on the subject?

58 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 24, 2012 4:48:45am

re: #57 Obdicut

Yep. My friend Uri used to write for it; now he has to explain that it used to not be a festering pile of contemptible crap.

Hey, I wanted to ask you about something; you said the other day that only a small minority of Haredim are not Zionist, but it was my impression that most of the major groups of Haredim were anti-Zionist, at least to the extent of being against Israel's existence as a secular state, rather than an explicitly religious one. Can you explicate any more on the subject?

Yes, I should have explained that. The majority of Haredim do not recognize Israel as the fulfillment of ischalta d'geula (the promised Third Commonwealth), what this means in practical terms is that these Haredi parties (Shas, UTJ) do not oppose negotiations in which Israel might be required to surrender some territory in the context of a lasting peace treaty. The religious-Zionist parties oppose giving away ANY PART of "promised Biblical Israel" for any reason.

59 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 24, 2012 4:56:46am

re: #53 Obdicut

It's highly derpy, cloaked in a thin veneer of intellectualism.

Thought it was rather evil, though I'm probably conflating it with American Renaissance, which is white-collar Klan, IIRC.

60 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, May 24, 2012 4:58:44am

There's a hole in the bucket,
Dear Liza,
Dear Liza,
There's a hole in the bucket,
Dear Liza,
A hole.

61 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 24, 2012 5:03:30am

re: #59 Decatur Deb

Thought it was rather evil, though I'm probably conflating it with American Renaissance, which is white-collar Klan, IIRC.

Ran both past Wiki. The few contributors I recognize make AT evil enough.*

*So evil that they don't rate even a blog hit for their advertising market.

62 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, May 24, 2012 5:05:46am

Calcium supplements may raise heart attack risk
[Link: www.usatoday.com...]

63 Obdicut  Thu, May 24, 2012 5:10:35am

re: #58 Learned Mother of Zion

Thanks that clears it up some. And the Sephardi Haredim tend to be more Zionist than the Ashkenazi, or do I have that backwards?

64 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 24, 2012 5:17:12am

re: #63 Obdicut

Thanks that clears it up some. And the Sephardi Haredim tend to be more Zionist than the Ashkenazi, or do I have that backwards?

I don't know if the difference is significant. Shas is the Sephardic party, UTJ is Ashkenazim. The Shas party has a much larger following and more seats, whether this makes them more "Zionist" I don't know, just that they appeal to a broader segment of the population (not all of whom are Haredim by any means) whereas UTJ appeals to a very limited group.

65 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 5:38:34am

Morning Lizardim from the rainy and warm wild north country. Wicked thunderstorm activity up here, which has been absolutely fascinating, and also helping to prevent the drought conditions that we suffered last summer. I hope it keeps up, although the "F" word (no, not that one!) has been bandied about in some communities.

When I see a thread like this, I always roll my eyes and groan, "Oh, good grief, not AGAIN." To the chumps on the far right: Not every noob with a copy of Photoshop is a "digital photography expert". The science of image analysis is a lot more in-depth than "OMG MISSING PIXELZ". It's the same basic mistakes every single time, and it gets more than a little annoying tbh.

66 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 24, 2012 5:48:08am

Have a great morning all!

67 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 5:54:41am

re: #52 ggt

Why study the Yeti --?

Is it so important -- ?

Is it just because some nut will pay for it and the researchers can have a job for another year?

It just seems there are more pressing matters at the current time.

I don't think pressing matters is a factor for all scientists.
There's stuff alleged to be from yeti in the collection, why not study it, as long as it may give interesting results in other areas too (as indicated in the article)? If anything, it may disprove that this stuff is from yetis, which is also a meaningful result.

I mean, people even scientifically study things like the Shroud of Turin. Why not the alleged yeti stuff?

68 Interesting Times  Thu, May 24, 2012 5:54:59am
69 Eventual Carrion  Thu, May 24, 2012 5:58:17am

re: #47 ggt

I can't see either of his ears in that picture.

I don't see his hands either :-)

70 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:00:20am

re: #68 Interesting Times

A study shows Congress speaks English at a 10th grade level.

I don't think that is really so bad. I'd be kind of concerned if it was at a 4th grade level.

71 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:00:43am

Update to a very sad kidnapping story.
Suspect in SoHo kid's disappearance said he lured boy with candy, killed him: source


Read more: [Link: www.nypost.com...]

72 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:00:44am

re: #69 RayFerd

I don't see his hands either :-)

I thought those smiles looked a little forced.

73 Eventual Carrion  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:04:02am

re: #72 thedopefishlives

I thought those smiles looked a little forced.

'Ol Bill might have a floating hand problem.

74 RogueOne  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:07:27am

re: #73 RayFerd

I would bet he would be more likely to turn them down (only because there's no way to get away with it!) than the other way around. Porn actresses aren't usually known for keeping their mouths shut, or so I've heard.

75 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:07:48am

re: #74 RogueOne

I would bet he would be more likely to turn them down (only because there's no way to get away with it!) than the other way around. Porn actresses aren't usually known for keeping their mouths shut, or so I've heard.

Communist.

76 jytdog  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:10:04am

I've tried to dialog with birther/photoshopper (BPS) folks and I always end up in a terrible mood. What happens every time is that efforts to reason based on evidence end up failing, because we end up disagreeing about what counts as evidence. Which - on both sides - comes down to a question of whether you trust the source of the information or thing being presented as evidence. It comes down to really fundamental questions of epistemology. On what basis do you know anything? What do you assume is true about the world that lets you accept some things as true and factual and thus lets you function on a day to day basis, much less in a more abstract political discussion? What keeps me up at night is that among the BPS folks there is a complete lack of trust in the institutions of American life - in the main stream media, in the government, etc. But especially, the press lies, all the time. Now I bring a certain amount of suspicion to things presented to me as facts - we are awash in bullshit and spin - but I have some faith that institutions like the NY Times and the WSJ (although it is becoming increasingly Murdochisized) do try to get the story right. (TV news is not news but is entertainment....you can't learn enough about anything to make political judgements) But that is a matter of, well, faith.

But again what keeps me up at night is this lack of faith in the press that one finds perfected and crystallized in the BPSers and you hear it all the time at Fox News and Limbaugh/Hannity et al, but shards of it are everywhere. We don't seem to have a common place to go anymore, from which to draw information upon which we as a society can make political decisions and judgements. I've wondered where that streak of "un-faith" comes from and how it grew to be so big and ugly. I remember when Reagan was president -- I remember being shocked at the way he would belittle the "mainstream media." And wondering what was going to happen to America if people really stopped believing the press. I think we see the outcome in the community of BPSers. And the bubbles you find in blogs everywhere. I think the abdication of real reporting by the main TV networks has definitely fed it, as has the fact (I believe it is a fact) that most Americans have never embraced their responsibility as citizens to seek information and be informed. But what do you think? Do you see this lack of faith in the press that I am talking about? Where do you think it comes from? Do you think it is corrosive to our democracy itself? Will we ever have a viable and shared 4th estate again? Sorry if these questions are not welcome - its what the post made me think about.

77 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:16:36am

re: #76 jytdog

I don't think it boils down to trust in press (nor should you exactly "trust" press without question - as you point out). However a claim that an official US institution would forge a certificate for a President (or a candidate) or that the President (or the candidate) would do it themselves in full knowledge they will be exposed by official authorities can be dismissed outright unless there is very, very strong evidence to the contrary (and musings by pseudoexperts don't count as such evidence).

78 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:25:33am

re: #76 jytdog

I've tried to dialog with birther/photoshopper (BPS) folks and I always end up in a terrible mood.

Their minds are already made up--why would you confuse them with facts?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, but their position boils down to "The President's birth certificate is a forgery: prove that it isn't!" not seeming to realize that the burden of proof is on them. The nonsensical "evidence" they offer up is very easy to refute, but they won't accept any explanation that you provide, so it's a waste of your time.

I once got involved in a Twitfight with some wingnut who kept insisting that "Obama is just like H****r!" I asked, "If that is the case, how come you are still posting shit on Twitter and not in a death camp?" Then I was blocked.

79 lawhawk  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:28:14am

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. Looks like there's been a huge break in the Etan Patz case this morning as all the local media outlets are reporting that the NYPD has someone in custody who has implicated himself in the disappearance. It's not one of the two individuals previously suspected in the disappearance of Patz from a SoHo street more than 30 years ago. The break comes nearly 33 years to the day from the disappearance:

The man in custody, Pedro Hernandez, is from Camden, New Jersey and worked in Patz’s SoHo neighborhood at the time of his disappearance, 1010 WINS’ Juliet Papa reported.

Speaking on “CBS This Morning,” CBS News senior correspondent John Miller said Hernandez was not considered a major suspect when Patz went missing.

“He’s in the interrogation room, he’s made admissions, he’s implicated himself and now you’re in the very odd position of trying to go and prove that his admissions are correct because this would also not be the first time someone has made admissions in the case and not have them pan out,” Miller said.

The little boy was last seen walking to a school bus on May 25, 1979. Patz’s parents let him walk to the bus alone for the first time that morning and he was never seen again.

80 SidewaysQuark  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:31:31am

This "blurring between object boundaries" nonsense is the same "tactic" used by crackpots to "prove" the moon landings were faked.

It doesn't take a photoshop expert to realize that objects not in focus don't have clearly defined boundaries, viewed at a fine level. What a bunch of morons.

81 lawhawk  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:33:54am

re: #80 SidewaysQuark

It's further a function of depth of field, lens quality, and then on the back end - whether the image file was in a compression-type format (JPG) or uncompressed (RAW).

In other words, it's layers of crazy.

82 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:35:53am

re: #80 lawhawk

It's further a function of depth of field, lens quality, and then on the back end - whether the image file was in a compression-type format (JPG) or uncompressed (RAW).

In other words, it's layers of crazy.

Try explaining any of this to one of them and their eyes will glaze over, then they'll fire back with "I don't care, it still looks fake."

83 darthstar  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:36:27am

Hey Charles...looks like we've got another person using your headline:

My break with the extreme right
Michael Fumento

Gosh! When did I end up in bed with Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber? Could it be because I did specialize in blowing things up while serving my country for four years as an airborne combat engineer? I also watched human beings blown up. I had friends and Navy SEALs I was in battle with blown up. My own intestines exploded on the first of my four combat embeds, three in Iraq and one in Afghanistan. Took seven operations to fix the plumbing. I later suffered other permanent injuries.

Yet now I find myself linked not only with the Unabomber, but also Charles Manson and Fidel Castro. Or so says the Chicago-based think tank the Heartland Institute, for which I’ve done work. Heartland erected billboards depicting the above three declaring: “I still believe in Global Warming. Do you?”

84 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:36:49am

Some quick points on the photo:

1. The "pants" Mara Zebest is seeing are a part of the jacket -- i.e. a paneled jacket. This is common.

2. The blown out appearance of Obama is because he appear to have his hands on his hips. He also looks like he is leaning against the high backed "boss" chair at the end of the table.

3. The lens used was a 24mm which would amplify the size of the jacket.

4. The "floating" hand is from someone hidden from view.

5. The ear and neck effects are the result of artifacting caused by the depth of field. This was also amplified since the film was set at 800 ASA.

6. The photograph was taken by Pete Souza who also photographed Ronald Reagan. If one is going to call themselves "journalists" any alleged "investigation" would include contacting Mr. Souza to "ask him some questions."

85 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:38:09am

re: #84 Gus

If one is going to call themselves "journalists" any alleged "investigation" would include contacting Mr. Souza to "ask him some questions.

RSMcCain! Shoe-leather journalism!! HIT THE TIP JAR!!! /

86 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:39:16am

re: #85 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

RSMcCain! Shoe-leather journalism!! HIT THE TIP JAR!!! /

Clearly you're on the side of left wing terrorists!!!!111ty

//

87 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:41:02am

re: #86 Gus

See #45 btw.

88 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:42:13am

Carpenter apprentice just lost his thumb in the pile driver, shitty way to start the holiday weekend. I am always impressed when you call 911, and out of the blue you are surrounded by EMS volunteers, even the ENCON Ranger stopped to help.

89 lawhawk  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:46:27am

re: #88 Tommy's cone of shame

That sucks... but it's another reminder of how important supporting the volunteer EMS/fire folks are.

90 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:46:45am

re: #87 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

See #45 btw.

No surprise. That's been floating around for some time now. At least AI will have some class about their objection as opposed to the Church of Glenn Greenwald. I guess you can say "you're gonna get that." Others have argued that taking out OBL was wrong not on human rights/international law ground but for intelligence reasons in what could be gained from a live capture of OBL. Which I assume would include fantasizing of enhanced interrogation. Too late though and I doubt much will become of this. Otherwise, AI continues to do good work on other fronts and while I occasionally disagree with them, maybe more than occasionally, much like the ACLU I have no interest in abandoning them because of this. We're not perfect.

91 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:47:55am

re: #90 Gus

Yep, let's leave that purity to Puritopians ;)

92 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:52:07am

Change the rules and let people withdraw money from their IRA's and invest in real-estate. Good idea or no?
I wouldn't want to withdraw money just because of the penalty [Link: www.nypost.com...]

93 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:54:02am

Ship week:
[Link: www.nypost.com...]

94 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:54:43am

re: #91 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Yep, let's leave that purity to Puritopians ;)

What is the Puritopian threat level this morning?

//

95 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:56:25am

re: #83 darthstar

Hey Charles...looks like we've got another person using your headline:

My break with the extreme right
Michael Fumento

Good article. It does seem like he's coming from a reasonable and well thought out decision. What I'm most impressed by is that he's not being reactionary, just sticking to his principles. He doesn't seem to be under any delusions that the radical left is any more reasonable. I hope he keeps the larger picture in perspective. Good for him.

96 lawhawk  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:56:33am

re: #93 Tommy's cone of shame

The Mrs. caught them coming in yesterday. It was most impressive. I might have to get down to see the ships in port this weekend (haven't done that in a good long time).

97 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:56:34am

Down with NATO!

Derp.

98 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:58:25am

re: #97 Gus

Down with NATO!

Derp.

I don't get the anti-NATO thing among some left-wing liberals in the West. I get that in Russia etc., but not there. (Disclosure: used to be anti-NATO during Serbia bombings; got better years ago).

99 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 6:58:51am

re: #93 Tommy's cone of shame

Ship week:
[Link: www.nypost.com...]

I'm guessing Old Ironsides didn't make the trip down from Boston?

100 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:03:41am

re: #98 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

I don't get the anti-NATO thing among some left-wing liberals in the West. I get that in Russia etc., but not there. (Disclosure: used to be anti-NATO during Serbia bombings; got better years ago).

Probably because the ultimate state of global civilization would be to not need a NATO. Which while theoretically and morally true it is that way only in prime or perfect civilizational condition. But that's not the case and practical or realistic reason leave me and most other to assume that one needs a NATO. Until that time comes where we don't need them they'll be around. The irony to all of these protests is that of course, Russia, China, Syria, North Korea, and Iran are all smiling at these protests and opposition.

Of course then you have another side of the left that supports NATO and have been asking for months now WRT to Syria: where's NATO?

101 compound_Idaho  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:05:13am

re: #92 Tommy's cone of shame

You can invest in real estate within the IRA.

[Link: www.irs.gov...]

102 Interesting Times  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:09:31am

#burn #NelsonHaHa

103 lawhawk  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:11:16am

re: #99 thedopefishlives

Here's a full list of the ships in NY harbor this week:

[Link: www.fleetweeknewyork.com...]

104 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:15:22am

re: #103 lawhawk

Here's a full list of the ships in NY harbor this week:

[Link: www.fleetweeknewyork.com...]

It's kinda too bad, I would've appreciated having one of the ships that was actually around for the War of 1812 get out and make an appearance. But, I suppose they probably want to be fairly careful with her, and I can't fault them for that.

105 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:16:27am

re: #103 lawhawk

Here's a full list of the ships in NY harbor this week:

[Link: www.fleetweeknewyork.com...]

You allowed on board yet?

106 lawhawk  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:19:14am

re: #104 thedopefishlives

It's a huge deal for Old Ironsides to be swung around within the confines of the Charles River, which happens annually, but a full-on sail in open water isn't going to happen.

Annual USS Constitution Turnaround Sail & BBQ: 7/4/2012, 10AM-1:30PM, $175

The USS Constitution and the USCG Eagle will pass each other off Castle Island and fire a salute at exactly 12 noon on the Fourth of July while the Navy's Blue Angels fly overhead! This is truly a once in a lifetime opportunity to watch America's Ship of State sail alongside the Eagle, and see the Blue Angels soar through the heavens while enjoying a cookout aboard Boston's Tall Ship.

107 lawhawk  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:21:57am

re: #105 Gus

Yup - hours depend on where the ship is berthed:
Manhattan - ships are open every day from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m.at Piers 90 & 92
Staten Island. ships are open every day from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. at the Homeport Pier
Brooklyn - Ships are open Sat, Sun & Mon, May 26-28 from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. for the coalition ships, Piers 7 & 8

There's also a bunch of other events throughout the metro area, including flyovers, helicopter flying and static static displays at some local schools, and other outreach.

108 lawhawk  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:22:54am

Daily dose of cute. Cheetah cubs.

109 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:23:15am

re: #107 lawhawk

Yup - hours depend on where the ship is berthed:
Manhattan - ships are open every day from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m.at Piers 90 & 92
Staten Island. ships are open every day from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. at the Homeport Pier
Brooklyn - Ships are open Sat, Sun & Mon, May 26-28 from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. for the coalition ships, Piers 7 & 8

There's also a bunch of other events throughout the metro area, including flyovers, helicopter flying and static static displays at some local schools, and other outreach.

Cool. That's the only way to do it. Last time I was on board was in San Francisco. Was pretty disappointed that Edwards AFB was closed. I did get about 500 yards from the gate though and made a u-turn. No gun fire. //

110 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:27:26am

Hilarious. The Puritopians are trolling Angry Black Lady because she once worked for a law firm that represented a JP Morgan case in which she took part in. That was years ago and she eventually left the firm. But now they're acting like the high priests of anarchy in judgement for her eventual damnation in Puritopian hell. They remind me of the Catholic Church. It's even largely represented by white males.

111 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:30:37am

re: #110 Gus

Hilarious. The Puritopians are trolling Angry Black Lady because she once worked for a law firm that represented a JP Morgan case in which she took part in. That was years ago and she eventually left the firm. But now they're acting like the high priests of anarchy in judgement for her eventual damnation in Puritopian hell. They remind me of the Catholic Church. It's even largely represented by white males.

[Link: twitter.com...]

112 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:34:58am

Maru turns 5 years old.

Youtube Video
113 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:36:29am

GUS IS A FAN OF FAT CATS!!!1

114 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:37:32am

re: #113 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

GUS IS A FAN OF FAT CATS!!!1

Breaking news! Derp! "Gus is a fan of cats and has a hernia!!11ty."

//

115 Varek Raith  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:40:37am

Image: 20120423-02.jpg

116 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:42:45am

re: #110 Gus

Hilarious. The Puritopians are trolling Angry Black Lady because she once worked for a law firm that represented a JP Morgan case in which she took part in. That was years ago and she eventually left the firm. But now they're acting like the high priests of anarchy in judgement for her eventual damnation in Puritopian hell. They remind me of the Catholic Church. It's even largely represented by white males.

Purge! Purge! Purge makes the grass grow!

117 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:44:55am

re: #116 Killgore Trout

Purge! Purge! Purge makes the grass grow!

I guess I should be ex-communicated now since I'm working on a house for some rich people. I've done so in the past actually. :)

118 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:45:41am

re: #117 Gus

I guess I should be ex-communicated now since I'm working on a house for some rich people. I've done so in the past actually. :)

You are the embodiment of evil. Somebody call for a priest, we need an exorcism.

119 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:45:46am

re: #117 Gus

I guess I should be ex-communicated now since I'm working on a house for some rich people. I've done so in the past actually. :)

Free market capitalism? Tea Partier!
/

120 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:50:33am

re: #118 thedopefishlives

You are the embodiment of evil. Somebody call for a priest, we need an exorcism.

Guess I'm just another neocon like Obama.

//

121 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:51:54am

re: #120 Gus

Guess I'm just another neocon like Obama.

//

You used a dirty word! CHARLES! We need to update the word filter!//

122 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:53:56am

re: #120 Gus

Guess I'm just another neocon like Obama.

//

Uppity, communist, elitist, capitalist, arugula-eating, warmongering, pacifist, Israel-hating neocon!

123 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:54:16am

My friend calls the purer than thou lefties- lefty freepers. I like that title. Maybe exaggerated but they like the original ones think only their ideas work.

124 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:55:37am

re: #123 HappyWarrior

My friend calls the purer than thou lefties- lefty freepers. I like that title. Maybe exaggerated but they like the original ones think only their ideas work.

I've been lectured to before.

125 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:56:28am

re: #124 Gus

I've been lectured to before.

Agh. Sucks. I've seen your title for them- emoprogs- I do like that as well.

126 RogueOne  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:57:02am

Man Ticketed for Dropping Money on the Ground
[Link: fox8.com...]

CLEVELAND — A random act of kindness lands a man in trouble with police.

Last Monday, May 14th John Davis was exiting I-90 at the West 117th ramp when he saw a man in a wheelchair. The man was pale, thin and holding a sign that had a religious sentiment and also a request for help.

John thought to himself, “I think we’re all to help the less fortunate.”
.....
“I have a brother that’s paralyzed,” said John, “My brother’s in that same situation and struggles.”

John reached into his wallet and grabbed a couple of bucks to give to the man. As he approached the light at the exit, he rolled the money up vertically and stretched his arm out of his window. He says, the man touched the cash and one of the dollars fell to the ground.

The man then bent over and picked it up.

Moments later as John travelled North on West 117th he says a Cleveland police officer pulled him over.

“He proceeds to tell me he’s pulling me over for littering,” said John.

John and his friends who witnessed the exchange were baffled.

The ticket cited Section No: 613.06 of Cleveland’s Municipal Codes, which is littering from a motor vehicle.

His offense was listed as, “Throw paper out window,” and in parenthesis, “money to panhandler.”

127 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:58:32am

re: #126 RogueOne

Man Ticketed for Dropping Money on the Ground
[Link: fox8.com...]

Don't touch the police. Get with the program. Bash OWS instead.
/

128 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:59:24am

re: #125 HappyWarrior

Agh. Sucks. I've seen your title for them- emoprogs- I do like that as well.

Someone else invented that word. :)

129 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 7:59:39am

re: #122 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Uppity, communist, elitist, capitalist, arugula-eating, warmongering, pacifist, Israel-hating neocon!

Bless you.

130 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:00:37am

Emo Progressive

Note: This term was seen as divisive and has been superseded by Puritopian.

Emo Progressive (or "emoprog") is a self-described liberal or progressive, often with libertarian leanings, whose political orientation is to be angry, dissatisfied and unhappy with the state of the nation at any given time, because in their view, liberal policies are not being implemented quickly or forcefully enough. They have particular contempt for Democratic presidents.

Emoprogs are ideological purists who disdain compromise and incremental change, which they see as "selling out" liberal ideas like full employment, an end to all wars, state secrets, and liberal social policy.

Emoprogs dislike Republicans but reserve their greatest disdain for Democratic presidents, whom they relentlessly attack for not meeting a set of ideological goal posts that are constantly adjusted to ensure that the president will be deemed a disappointment, "not progressive enough" or "just like a Republican" no matter what policy achievements are made.

Emoprogs routinely dismiss or ignore congress' role in making or impeding policy, believing presidents can simply "use the bully pulpit" and "fight" in order to overcome constitutional or legislative obstacles.

Emoprogs have a strong affinity for 3rd party politics as a way to punish Democratic presidents. They are especially hostile to President Obama and deem anyone who expresses a lack of ill will toward him to be "Obamabot."

131 RogueOne  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:00:55am

re: #127 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Don't touch the police. Get with the program. Bash OWS instead.
/

The one thing I like about the OWS get-togethers are the "Fuck The Police!" chants. I'm in solidarity with them on that one.//

132 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:01:46am

re: #128 Gus

Someone else invented that word. :)

Ah I didn't know that.

133 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:01:58am

re: #130 Gus

"use the bully pulpit"

HEY! WE'RE AGAINST BULLYING!!!1/

134 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:03:18am

Yeah that's exactly what my friend would call a lefty freeper. It's just updated to fit Obama's presidency as she coined the term during the Bush years. It was reversed for those on the left who insist that the Democrats engage in much of the same demagoguery we see directed at Obama now from the right.

135 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:03:29am

re: #133 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

"use the bully pulpit"

HEY! WE'RE AGAINST BULLYING!!!1/

Hypocrisy? Imagine that.

136 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:04:11am

re: #123 HappyWarrior

My friend calls the purer than thou lefties- lefty freepers. I like that title. Maybe exaggerated but they like the original ones think only their ideas work.

Trust me, as a democratic socialist, I'm not sufficiently pure to that crowd.

Been butting heads at another web site with a couple of self identified Anarcho-Syndicalists over their arguments that Obama is an authoritarian president, even worse (oh horrors) than Bush was. They've also latched onto Penn Jillette's whiney & profane little rant about Obama and drug policy that blissfully ignores that he's doing the exact same thing as the last, oh, 10 presidents.

Puritopians; Lefty Freepers; whatever you want to call them. But if they naderize this election and give us yet more far right nutjobs on the SCOTUS, then I'll be looking to drop kick them to Canada.

137 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:04:23am

re: #134 HappyWarrior

Yeah that's exactly what my friend would call a lefty freeper. It's just updated to fit Obama's presidency as she coined the term during the Bush years. It was reversed for those on the left who insist that the Democrats engage in much of the same demagoguery we see directed at Obama now from the right.

the lefty version of FR is democraticunderground

138 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:06:01am

re: #137 Learned Mother of Zion

the lefty version of FR is democraticunderground

I might have said so a few years ago, but the level of racism at FR has increased so much that I don't find a lefty analog anymore...

139 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:06:09am

re: #136 William Barnett-Lewis

Trust me, as a democratic socialist, I'm not sufficiently pure to that crowd.

Been butting heads at another web site with a couple of self identified Anarcho-Syndicalists over their arguments that Obama is an authoritarian president, even worse (oh horrors) than Bush was. They've also latched onto Penn Jillette's whiney & profane little rant about Obama and drug policy that blissfully ignores that he's doing the exact same thing as the last, oh, 10 presidents.

Puritopians; Lefty Freepers; whatever you want to call them. But if they naderize this election and give us yet more far right nutjobs on the SCOTUS, then I'll be looking to drop kick them to Canada.

Well, I don't count yourself in them. It's really not ideological, it's about attitude. You can be a democratic socialist like yourself and not be in the category because you understand the realities.

140 bubba zanetti  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:06:41am

So why would the president Photoshop a photo when I'm pretty sure he could just get everybody to show up and pose for it?

Also, quantum slacks.

141 Eventual Carrion  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:06:57am

re: #122 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Uppity, communist, elitist, capitalist, arugula-eating, warmongering, pacifist, Israel-hating neocon!

Add any more and he will need a bigger business card to display them all.

142 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:07:29am

re: #141 RayFerd

Add any more and he will need a bigger business card to display them all.

Nah, just "Obama".

143 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:07:44am

re: #137 Learned Mother of Zion

the lefty version of FR is democraticunderground

I'd put the proposed left-freeper well to the left of DU. DU strikes me as somewhat more moderate than Kos, but openly Democratic Party in orientation. Freep is so far right at present that they pose to hate the 'Establishment GOP" only a bit less than 'Demorats".

144 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:08:21am

re: #138 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

I might have said so a few years ago, but the level of racism at FR has increased so much that I don't find a lefty version anymore...

Yeah, it's hard to find a lefty that's as bigoted as any of the crazy right-wing nutjobs.

145 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:08:48am

re: #143 Decatur Deb

DU strikes me as somewhat more moderate than Kos

I think you might have gotten this reversed... DK is pretty moderate, DU not so much.

146 Mattand  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:09:33am

re: #137 Learned Mother of Zion

the lefty version of FR is democraticunderground

I wonder if Raw Story and Crooks and Liars falls under this category. I stopped browing both sites due to the high level of paranoia amongst their commentators.

I still skim the sites for headlines, but I take them with huge bucketfuls of salt.

147 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:09:56am

re: #138 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

I might have said so a few years ago, but the level of racism at FR has increased so much that I don't find a lefty analog anymore...

I was once a FReeper but I haven't gone there in over 3 years, unless I follow a link somebody has posted here and then I think oh why did I do that?

I'm still getting pings and FReepmails probably asking where did I go (I don't read any messages sent to me there)

148 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:10:13am

re: #145 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

I think you might have gotten this reversed... DK is pretty moderate, DU not so much.

DU has really chilled out in recent years.

149 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:11:06am

re: #145 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

I think you might have gotten this reversed... DK is pretty moderate, DU not so much.

Where does Firedoglake fall on the lefty spectrum?

150 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:12:31am

re: #149 Learned Mother of Zion

Where does Firedoglake fall on the lefty spectrum?

I like Tbogg at FDL.

151 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:13:06am

I actually went over American Thinker to read the article.

I absolutely love this gem.

Keep in mind that the codename for the OBL mission was leaked as "Geronimo," so this is obviously a different codeword. Is this another disturbing attempt to casually release confidential information to our enemies? In light of numerous stories, most recently the secret-under-the-radar program to release Taliban detainees -- it's not hard to get the feeling that the mission of this administration is to sabotage the safety and sovereignty of this nation rather than protect it.

Yes indeedy. The president's true agenda is to sabotage the safety and sovereignty of this nation.

Oh shit! They found out! I was hoping Obama could continue to fool them at least through the election!

152 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:13:25am

re: #147 Learned Mother of Zion

I was once a FReeper but I haven't gone there in over 3 years, unless I follow a link somebody has posted here and then I think oh why did I do that?

I'm still getting pings and FReepmails probably asking where did I go (I don't read any messages sent to me there)

I posted some recent quotes a few days ago...

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

153 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:13:28am

I posted on DU in Bush's first term. I was pretty far left then but looking back at it, it was pretty far left albeit with people running it who wanted to support the Democratic candidates. On the other hand, there was a lot of conspiracy mongreling back then. No idea how it is now. The problem with DU was a group think mentality where anyone who thought outside conventional DU thought was a "DLCer." Which I am sure Obama is being labeled now by them.

154 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:13:30am

re: #145 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

I think you might have gotten this reversed... DK is pretty moderate, DU not so much.

I've literally been listing sites in my bookmarks on a L-R scale. I haven't revised that (L) end much lately. (Perhaps I score DK so poorly because it is such a damn unreadable format.) I had LGF at about 3/4 the way to the right when I started 4 yrs ago, and now have it about 1/4 left-of-center. Note that I don't count any sites that are incohently babbling--no Stormfront, no Left/Anarchist.

155 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:14:13am

re: #149 Learned Mother of Zion

Where does Firedoglake fall on the lefty spectrum?

They are pretty much off the rails. More or less at the moronic convergence between radical left and right.

156 RogueOne  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:14:31am

re: #136 William Barnett-Lewis

.....They've also latched onto Penn Jillette's whiney & profane little rant about Obama and drug policy that blissfully ignores that he's doing the exact same thing as the last, oh, 10 presidents.
....

2008:
[Link: www.rollingstone.com...]

Back when he was running for president in 2008, Barack Obama insisted that medical marijuana was an issue best left to state and local governments. "I'm not going to be using Justice Department resources to try to circumvent state laws on this issue," he vowed, promising an end to the Bush administration's high-profile raids on providers of medical pot, which is legal in 16 states and the District of Columbia.

2012:
[Link: www.rawstory.com...]

President Barack Obama’s emphasis on raiding medical marijuana dispensaries drew a rebuke from none other than House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) this week, who warned in a prepared statement that she has “strong concerns” about her political ally’s policy.

Since President Barack Obama took office, “more than 200″ state-approved medical marijuana facilities have been raided, according to Kris Hermes, spokesperson for Americans for Safe Access (ASA), who spoke to Raw Story on Thursday.

“That exceeds the number of raids his predecessor, George W. Bush, oversaw during his entire eight years in office,” he said.

157 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:14:45am

Wasn't there someone on FDL who said Charles has only come to like Obama because "Obama's an as big warmongrel as Bush."

158 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:14:49am

re: #149 Learned Mother of Zion

Where does Firedoglake fall on the lefty spectrum?

I can't say I've been paying attention. Last I remember Hamsher was palling around with Norquist against Obama.

159 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:15:52am

Obama-Bush-Hitler hasn't legalized pot! I'm going to vote for a third party candidate in teh protest!!11ty

160 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:15:58am

re: #154 Decatur Deb

I've literally been listing sites in my bookmarks on a L-R scale. I haven't revised that (L) end much lately. (Perhaps I score DK so poorly because it it such a damn unreadable format.) I had LGF at about 3/4 the way to the right when I started 4 yrs ago, and not have it about 1/4 left-of-center. Note that I don't count any sites that are incohently babbling--no Stormfront, no Left/Anarchist.

I was going to say, if you have those in your bookmarks, we've got problems.

161 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:16:52am

re: #130 Gus

Emo Progressive

What's the difference between a Puritopian and someone who thinks that Obama, like Clinton, is significantly better than what the Republicans have to offer, but also feel that Obama, like Clinton, has been basically a centrist that has at times allowed political expediency to rule his policy development?

162 Mattand  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:17:31am

re: #161 Talking Point Detective

What's the difference between a Puritopian and someone who thinks that Obama, like Clinton, is significantly better than what the Republicans have to offer, but also feel that Obama, like Clinton, has been basically a centrist that has at times allowed political expediency to rule his policy development?

A realist?

163 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:17:35am

re: #161 Talking Point Detective

What's the difference between a Puritopian and someone who thinks that Obama, like Clinton, is significantly better than what the Republicans have to offer, but also feel that Obama, like Clinton, has been basically a centrist that has at times allowed political expediency to rule his policy development?

I don't know. Perhaps something like a realist?

164 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:17:50am

re: #162 mattand

A realist?

And we have two!

165 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:17:55am

re: #161 Talking Point Detective

What's the difference between a Puritopian and someone who thinks that Obama, like Clinton, is significantly better than what the Republicans have to offer, but also feel that Obama, like Clinton, has been basically a centrist that has at times allowed political expediency to rule his policy development?

That's what my opinion is. I just don't whine about it.

166 Mattand  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:18:10am

re: #164 Gus

And we have two!

LOL

167 Patricia Kayden  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:18:11am

More evidence that the Rightwingers are bored. Some scandal. YAWN.

168 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:19:39am

re: #167 Patricia Kayden

More evidence that the Rightwingers are bored. Some scandal. YAWN.

They find their own party so thoroughly unmotivating that they are reduced to trashing the other guy in the hope that they can make something stick. If Mittens was all that and a bag of potato chips, why aren't you out there stumping his positive qualities instead of bad-mouthing the President?

169 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:19:58am

re: #160 thedopefishlives

I was going to say, if you have those in your bookmarks, we've got problems.

Got all kinds of sites, just not on my L-R scale. The rw militias are especially interesting, not just because some of the assholes live in my backyard.

"An entomologist is not a bug." --Rexroth

170 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:20:05am

re: #165 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

That's what my opinion is. I just don't whine about it.

No! I want it NOW!!! Yeah. I tend to think in terms of 100s if not 1000s of years. I gave up on utopia right before I turned 30.

171 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:20:31am

I like reading the SPLCs website. And despite what Geller believes, they go after left wing extremists too.

172 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:21:06am

re: #168 thedopefishlives

They find their own party so thoroughly unmotivating that they are reduced to trashing the other guy in the hope that they can make something stick. If Mittens was all that and a bag of potato chips, why aren't you out there stumping his positive qualities instead of bad-mouthing the President?

Because it's more fun!

173 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:21:14am

re: #170 Gus

No! I want it NOW!!! Yeah. I tend to think in terms of 100s if not 1000s of years. I gave up on utopia right before I turned 30.

Indeed. The rate of progress is actually pretty stunning.

174 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:21:20am

re: #169 Decatur Deb

Got all kinds of sites, just not on my L-R scale. The rw militias are especially interesting, not just because some of the assholes live in my backyard.

"An entomologist is not a bug." --Rexroth

Eh, I suppose someone has to keep an eye on them. For myself, I don't want any of that trash touching my PC and making it unclean. My tower is the lord of the manor and it would not do to have to retire it in disgrace because of some filthy right-wing piece of garbage.

175 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:21:36am

re: #171 HappyWarrior

I like reading the SPLCs website.

I subscribe to their hardcopy reports. I don't consider SPLC a 'charity'. Here in AL they are more like a public utility.

176 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:23:00am

I dunno. When I think of what is being called an emoprog, purtopian, etc. I think of someone who thinks Dennis Kucinich should have had a bigger role within the Democratic Party.

177 RogueOne  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:23:28am

New profile pic. I feel better now.//

178 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:23:34am

re: #173 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Indeed. The rate of progress is actually pretty stunning.

It is. Considering where we came from it has progressed rather well. Compare society today with 1912. The contrasts are stunning. Yet, we still have another 100 years for the next step and so on. Even up to 1,000 years if need be. But imagine how the world was back in 1912.

179 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:23:42am

re: #156 RogueOne

Meh. I'll still save my displeasure for not closing Gitmo not for refusing to kiss ass to the potheads.

180 RogueOne  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:24:28am

re: #179 William Barnett-Lewis

Meh. I'll still save my displeasure for not closing Gitmo not for refusing to kiss ass to the potheads.

He was high when he made that promise. Cut him some slack.


//////////

181 sattv4u2  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:25:34am

So ,, as I was at work last night I noticed my son put a comment on his facebook page "hair be gone."

he had been over his friends house the night before and came home with that friends hair clippers


My son is now bald,,,, B A L D

B
A
L
D

182 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:25:47am

re: #161 Talking Point Detective

What's the difference between a Puritopian and someone who thinks that Obama, like Clinton, is significantly better than what the Republicans have to offer, but also feel that Obama, like Clinton, has been basically a centrist that has at times allowed political expediency to rule his policy development?

Well, Obama ran as a center-right candidate & has ruled as a center-right president. Sometimes you get exactly what you pay for.

Reality remains, Hillary would have been further to the right than Obama and anyone further to the left would not be electable anytime soon thanks to how badly Fox has poisoned the political discorse in this country.

183 RogueOne  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:25:53am

I'm done shit-stirring.// Time for lunch. Enjoy your day people!

184 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:26:13am

re: #174 thedopefishlives

Eh, I suppose someone has to keep an eye on them. For myself, I don't want any of that trash touching my PC and making it unclean. My tower is the lord of the manor and it would not do to have to retire it in disgrace because of some filthy right-wing piece of garbage.

A good example of the vigilance need is the Sipsey Street Irregulars. They would be one of thousands of small 2nd Amendment fetish sites, but their leader has been elevated by Fox as a 'contributor', and he's actually been to congressional hearings on the manufactured Fast and Furious conspiracy. Their HQ is about a ten minute drive from my daughter and grandkid.

185 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:26:34am

re: #163 Gus

I don't know. Perhaps something like a realist?

Here's my issue with what you're posting: from the definition you linked:

They have particular contempt for Democratic presidents.

I don't hang at many lefty sites, but I see little evidence of lefties having particular contempt for Obama as compared to, say, Bush. For example, I hold Clinton in pretty low regard, but that doesn't mean that I don't see how Republicans are worse.

There is some validity to an aversion to having to settle for a "lesser of two evils" compromise, and there is a legitimate argument that, for example, Clinton's welfare reform was more right wing than anything a Republican would have been able to get through. There is something to be said about the left's failure to be critical of, say, Obama's support for drones.

My question to you is how widespread is the phenomenon you're describing - and whether you might be failing to truly distinguish those who have particular contempt for Democrats from those who just have less contempt for Dems than they do Republicans.

186 RogueOne  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:26:53am

re: #181 sattv4u2

So ,, as I was at work last night I noticed my son put a comment on his facebook page "hair be gone."

he had been over his friends house the night before and came home with that friends hair clippers

My son is now bald,,, B A L D

B
A
L
D

was alcohol involved? because that's the only legit excuse to intentionally cut off all your hair.

187 Mattand  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:27:08am

re: #178 Gus

It is. Considering where we came from it has progressed rather well. Compare society today with 1912. The contrasts are stunning. Yet, we still have another 100 years for the next step and so on. Even up to 1,000 years if need be. But imagine how the world was back in 1912.

A late friend of mine used to say this about the '60s. Whenever I'd get frustrated with progress on race issues, she'd remind me I had no concept of how bad civil rights abuses where prior to this.

It's a shame she didn't live to see the progress being made on gay rights. She'd have enjoyed it immensely.

188 Mattand  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:28:04am

re: #181 sattv4u2

So ,, as I was at work last night I noticed my son put a comment on his facebook page "hair be gone."

he had been over his friends house the night before and came home with that friends hair clippers

My son is now bald,,, B A L D

B
A
L
D

Think of the money you're saving on shampoo.

189 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:28:25am

re: #169 Decatur Deb

Got all kinds of sites, just not on my L-R scale. The rw militias are especially interesting, not just because some of the assholes live in my backyard.

"An entomologist is not a bug." --Rexroth

They are funny little critters aren't they? I enjoy reading the "FM"s they put out to help them "train" their armies. Some are quite close (cut & paste close) to US Army doctrine. The ones from the Dominionist types though tend to be more off the wall.

190 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:28:51am

re: #188 mattand

Think of the money you're saving on shampoo.

Cost a fortune in SPF 50.

191 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:29:09am

My grandmother was eight years old when they gave women the right to vote. She lived to be 92. Saw a lot of progress in her life.

192 sattv4u2  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:30:08am

re: #186 RogueOne

was alcohol involved? because that's the only legit excuse to intentionally cut off all your hair.

Nope ,,, he was home all day and except for a dash of Marsala cooking wine theirs not a drop in the house

He did it before, right before Christmas, but that time it was a 'mistake". Another friend did the haircutting and didn't realize the setting was on the lowest, so after the 1st swipe, all the rest had top come off to match

This time,, he was solo,, did it himself and knew what setting he wanted

193 Mattand  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:30:25am

re: #190 Decatur Deb

Cost a fortune in SPF 50.

$10 baseball hat. Problem solved!

194 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:31:34am

re: #193 mattand

$10 baseball hat. Problem solved!

Yeah but most schools don't allow kids to wear baseball hats in schools. My guess it was a crazy bet. You know how teens are. I rode in a shopping cart as part of a bet when we were emulating Jackass.

195 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:32:06am

re: #186 RogueOne

was alcohol involved? because that's the only legit excuse to intentionally cut off all your hair.

Well, that or basic training. Which reminds me, my hair is almost an inch long, i need to budget in a high & tight.

196 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:32:16am

re: #189 William Barnett-Lewis

They are funny little critters aren't they? I enjoy reading the "FM"s they put out to help them "train" their armies. Some are quite close (cut & paste close) to US Army doctrine. The ones from the Dominionist types though tend to be more off the wall.

There is a dominionist evangelical group that needs more attention--they did a friendly takeover of the old Oral Roberts U or Garner Ted Armstrong facilities and were shaping themselves into a paramilitary ministry to "help" LEO with emergencies. Gotta check back on them.

197 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:32:29am

re: #184 Decatur Deb

A good example of the vigilance need is the Sipsey Street Irregulars. They would be one of thousands of small 2nd Amendment fetishists, but their leader has been elevated by Fox as a 'contributor', and he's actually been to congressional hearings on the manufactured Fast and Furious conspiracy. Their HQ is about a ten minute drive from my daughter and grandkid.

Makes me wonder what sort of Indiana KKK leftovers are still floating around out there. Little-known fact: Indiana was the site of the last public lynching.

198 Kronocide  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:32:58am

Logic: you're doing it wrong.

Failure to understand the difference between evolution and flip flopping. Plus, in an evolution there should be a rationale and reasoning for the change. I'd like to hear Romney's reasons for his 'evolutions.'

199 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:33:06am

re: #197 thedopefishlives

Makes me wonder what sort of Indiana KKK leftovers are still floating around out there. Little-known fact: Indiana was the site of the last public lynching.

What year was that?

200 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:33:34am

re: #182 William Barnett-Lewis

Well, Obama ran as a center-right candidate & has ruled as a center-right president. Sometimes you get exactly what you pay for.

Reality remains, Hillary would have been further to the right than Obama and anyone further to the left would not be electable anytime soon thanks to how badly Fox has poisoned the political discorse in this country.

Sure. I get annoyed at those who complain that Obama isn't what they hoped he would be as opposed to what he made quite clear during his campaign - although at an emotional level I understand the disappointment.

I also get annoyed at those who ignore political realities - for example at those who say that if Obama would hold a harder line he would get more out of the Republicans in Congress. A perfect example of that was the middle-class tax cuts debate. If Obama had held the line on that debate, those who can least afford it would have ended up seeing a significant tax increase during a recession.

As for electability - I think that the Dems would be better served by clearly distinguishing themselves from Republicans on economic issues, as opposed to, at times, trying to be Republican-lites. The continued failure of mainstream Dems to be more populist (I'm thinking along the lines of what is discussed in What's the Matter with Kansas) on economic issues is one I haven't figured out. Do their political advisors really think that being Republican-lite is a winning policy, or are they just being influenced by corporate lobbying power?

It will be interesting to see what happens if Obama does get a second term. I still do hold out some hope that he would become more populist on economic issues.

201 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:33:35am

re: #192 sattv4u2

Nope ,,, he was home all day and except for a dash of Marsala cooking wine theirs not a drop in the house

He did it before, right before Christmas, but that time it was a 'mistake". Another friend did the haircutting and didn't realize the setting was on the lowest, so after the 1st swipe, all the rest had top come off to match

This time,, he was solo,, did it himself and knew what setting he wanted

There's a strange girl involved somehow.

202 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:33:40am

re: #185 Talking Point Detective

I really can't answer that since I speak for myself. However, it has been my experience that there's certainly a great deal of opposition to drone use in many forums including place like Current. There is no silencing of said dialogue or rhetoric either. We all have our own particular issues that we hold high and dear. Speaking for myself I don't see drone use as a primary concern since that comes after foreign policy. Foreign policy makes that decision. So it's not a matter of our using "drones" in AFPAK but the overall regional policy itself since if we weren't using drone we'd be using a more conventional platform. Stopping drones won't stop wars.

203 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:33:55am

re: #196 Decatur Deb

There is a dominionist evangelical group that needs more attention--they did a friendly takeover of the old Oral Roberts U or Garner Ted Armstrong facilities and were shaping themselves into a paramilitary ministry to "help" LEO with emergencies. Gotta check back on them.

Peachy. Going to need to find more about them myself,

204 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:34:27am

re: #198 Kronocide

[Embedded content] Logic: you're doing it wrong.

Failure to understand the difference between evolution and flip flopping. Plus, in an evolution there should be a rationale and reasoning for the change. I'd like to hear Romney's reasons for his 'evolutions.'

That, plus Obama openly declared that he was evolving.

For Romney that would be an act of special creation (which seems fitting).

205 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:34:38am

re: #199 HappyWarrior

What year was that?

Oi. See, now I can't remember. I believe it was in the 1960's.

206 sattv4u2  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:35:06am

re: #201 Decatur Deb

There's a strange girl involved somehow.

I'n sure. i've been looking through his "friends" list to see if any of them have purple hair and a nose stud

207 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:35:40am

re: #198 Kronocide

[Embedded content] Logic: you're doing it wrong.

Failure to understand the difference between evolution and flip flopping. Plus, in an evolution there should be a rationale and reasoning for the change. I'd like to hear Romney's reasons for his 'evolutions.'

My retort to that is Romney changes his mind within weeks and sometimes even days on the issues. Obama has shown through his record on LGBT rights that he's evolved. That's the thing. You evolve when your policies change. You flip flop when you do what Romney's been doing. If Conn Carroll can't see how that's different than he's just being silly.

208 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:35:51am

re: #203 William Barnett-Lewis

Peachy. Going to need to find more about them myself,

Google something like the old AirLand language. Could be Air-Land-Sea, they're a Joel's Army variant.

209 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:36:23am

re: #205 thedopefishlives

Oi. See, now I can't remember. I believe it was in the 1960's.

The 1960's is sufficient enough to just shock me considering that wasn't that long ago.

210 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:36:37am

Romney is more like... don't give him water and don't feed him after midnight./

211 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:37:54am

re: #207 HappyWarrior

My retort to that is Romney changes his mind within weeks and sometimes even days on the issues. Obama has shown through his record on LGBT rights that he's evolved. That's the thing. You evolve when your policies change. You flip flop when you do what Romney's been doing. If Conn Carroll can't see how that's different than he's just being silly.

I think his gay adoption stance held for a couple hours. Fur reel.

212 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:38:37am

re: #210 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Romney is more like... don't give him water and don't feed him after midnight./

I am so glad I'd swallowed my coffee before I saw that line... LOL!

213 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:40:31am

re: #210 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Romney is more like... don't give him water and don't feed him after midnight./

Tricky Mitt

214 Obdicut  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:40:41am

I'm just going to leave this here.

Image: wM7GQ.png

Semantics is not just semantics.

215 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:40:58am

re: #211 Decatur Deb

I think his gay adoption stance held for a couple hours. Fur reel.

That's the exact example I was thinking of.

216 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:42:19am

re: #214 Obdicut

I'm just going to leave this here.

Image: wM7GQ.png

Semantics is not just semantics.

What about clubbing baby banks?

217 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:42:29am

re: #208 Decatur Deb

Google something like the old AirLand language. Could be Air-Land-Sea, they're a Joel's Army variant.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...] seems to fit your description...

218 Mattand  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:42:39am

re: #207 HappyWarrior

My retort to that is Romney changes his mind within weeks and sometimes even days on the issues. Obama has shown through his record on LGBT rights that he's evolved. That's the thing. You evolve when your policies change. You flip flop when you do what Romney's been doing. If Conn Carroll can't see how that's different than he's just being silly.

I'm pretty cynical about Obama's gay equality evolution. This may put me on the radical side, but I think he's slowly backing into gay rights to see how everyone's going to react.

My opinion is just do it. The DADT repeal was a prime example. If I have my history right, Truman told everyone we're integrating; I'm the boss and if you don't like it, tough shit. Wish Obama would be more aggressive like this.

219 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:43:12am

re: #202 Gus

I really can't answer that since I speak for myself. However, it has been my experience that there's certainly a great deal of opposition to drone use in many forums including place like Current. There is no silencing of said dialogue or rhetoric either. We all have our own particular issues that we hold high and dear. Speaking for myself I don't see drone use as a primary concern since that comes after foreign policy. Foreign policy makes that decision. So it's not a matter of our using "drones" in AFPAK but the overall regional policy itself since if we weren't using drone we'd be using a more conventional platform. Stopping drones won't stop wars.

True. I don't see some kind of censorship of criticism, but I do think that the criticism is muted by partisanship. It's to be expected, but I am concerned if some on "the left" try to marginalize some portion of the opposition from the left to Obama's policies by mislabeling it as extremist.

As for the drone policy - it, specifically, has very significant impact on foreign policy. It is a very big piece of the analysis of some for why the exiting strategy is ineffective. And further, it does have some serious problems in terms of oversight and the decision-making process for how targets are selected. I'm not particularly concerned about the libertarian "concern" about the potential use of drones against domestic political opponents - but there are some pretty big bottom-line ideological aspects to the drone usage.

220 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:46:18am

Hey all,

How is the day so far?

221 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:46:26am

re: #219 Talking Point Detective

I would say then that the drone debate could also encompass a spectrum. That is there is a variety of issues within their usage that can be addressed so there is no one-size fits all aspect to it. With myself my primary concern would be civilian casualties or what's commonly known as collateral damage. What I keep in mind though is that this occurs irrespective of the aerial platform. It's not the technology itself it's how we use that technology.

222 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:46:30am

re: #217 William Barnett-Lewis

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...] seems to fit your description...

Yup. I got to them by following a path of increasingly bizzare heresies involving Gothard and Bentham. A family tree of that world, even fixed in time, would be difficult. The craziest of them think smokeless powder is a sacrament.

223 efuseakay  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:46:49am

Why don't these morons zoom in on a photo they believe isn't Photoshopped... Oh...

224 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:46:57am

re: #218 mattand

I'm pretty cynical about Obama's gay equality evolution. This may put me on the radical side, but I think he's slowly backing into gay rights to see how everyone's going to react.

My opinion is just do it. The DADT was prime example. If I have may history right, Truman told everyone we're integrating; I'm the boss and if you don't like it, tough shit. Wish Obama would be more aggressive like this.

There's time for that, but... let's take DADT. It was frustrating for all these months, right? Right. But now it's set in stone. Even Romney is not thinking about reconstituting it.

Because Obama "deferred to the military", did everything slowly, carefully, according to the law (even defending DADT in courts), and the issue really failed to become partisan in the end. It's there to stay.

If he simply used an executive order, it would likely be repealed by a wingnut president, or the Congress might have tried to do something about it, and in the whole situation it would have been the Congress v. Obama and the military v. Obama (because if he hadn't deferred to the military, you would see a lot of opposition).

So Obama did it the smart way. You (retroactively) propose a "right" but really unreasonable way.

225 Obdicut  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:47:55am

re: #218 mattand

My opinion is just do it. The DADT repeal was a prime example. If I have my history right, Truman told everyone we're integrating; I'm the boss and if you don't like it, tough shit. Wish Obama would be more aggressive like this.

Nope. Truman certainly took a good stand, but to a large extent he was pushed into it by A. Phillip Randolph, one of my personal heroes. [Link: www.whha.org...]

226 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:48:57am

re: #214 Obdicut

I'm just going to leave this here.

Image: wM7GQ.png

Semantics is not just semantics.

It's pretty common practice when banks are "in danger of failing." However, at this time I don't see any US banks in danger of failing. Until then that option has always remained open for most countries regardless of ideology.

227 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:49:17am

re: #220 ggt

Hey all,

How is the day so far?

I'm trying not to get annoyed conversing with conspiracy theorists. They don't even know how to read, and yet they manage to regurgitate all this crap that some people actually find believable.

228 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:49:45am

re: #225 Obdicut

Nope. Truman certainly took a good stand, but to a large extent he was pushed into it by A. Phillip Randolph, one of my personal heroes. [Link: www.whha.org...]

Saw his statue when I was at Union Station recently. Truman's civil rights efforts FWIW are why I like him better than FDR overall.

229 Mattand  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:51:15am

re: #224 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

There's time for that, but... let's take DADT. It was frustrating for all these months, right? Right. But now it's set in stone. Even Romney is not thinking about reconstituting it.

Because Obama "deferred to the military", did everything slowly, carefully, according to the law (even defending DADT in courts), and the issue really failed to become partisan in the end. It's there to stay.

If he simply used an executive order, it would likely be repealed by a wingnut president, or the Congress might have tried to do something about it, and in the whole situation it would have been the Congress v. Obama and the military v. Obama (because if he hadn't deferred to the military, you would see a lot of opposition).

So Obama did it the smart way. You (retroactively) propose a "right" but really unreasonable way.

Wasn't Truman's integration of the troops an Executive Order that could have been repealed?

I see what you're saying. It's frustrating because there's millions of Americans being denied basic rights because of their sexuality. It seems like this should be a no-brainer.

230 Kronocide  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:53:51am

Breaking: Obama appeared at event with a socialist group in 1996

Notice how Obama's name is highlighted... has it been altered? There are no ears for reference.

231 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:54:11am

re: #224 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

There's time for that, but... let's take DADT. It was frustrating for all these months, right? Right. But now it's set in stone. Even Romney is not thinking about reconstituting it.

Because Obama "deferred to the military", did everything slowly, carefully, according to the law (even defending DADT in courts), and the issue really failed to become partisan in the end. It's there to stay.

If he simply used an executive order, it would likely be repealed by a wingnut president, or the Congress might have tried to do something about it, and in the whole situation it would have been the Congress v. Obama and the military v. Obama (because if he hadn't deferred to the military, you would see a lot of opposition).

So Obama did it the smart way. You (retroactively) propose a "right" but really unreasonable way.

I was in HQDA long enough to watch the status of gays move from felon to DADT and on to a push for open service. It's shocking to hear younger lefties attack the DADT era. It was a great leap forward and took guts. A lot of the Army leadership was genuinely worried about the impact it would have on unit cohesion while we were fighting two prolonged wars. Enough crap happened, like the Ft. Campbell murder, to justify that concern. There was no faster pathway to equity.

232 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:55:10am

re: #230 Kronocide

Breaking: Obama appeared at event with a socialist group in 1996

Notice how Obama's name is highlighted... has it been altered? There are no ears for reference.

You know even if he did, so what. Not every socialist is Stalin or dictatorial.

233 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:55:47am

re: #229 mattand

Wasn't Truman's integration of the troops an Executive Order that could have been repealed?

I don't know all the legal and social issues involved back then. Was it a gamble? Did Truman have Obama's option?

I know them for the DADT, and I know that Obama's way was the correct way (even if I would excoriate him for slowness in those months).

234 Talking Point Detective  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:55:55am

re: #221 Gus

I would say then that the drone debate could also encompass a spectrum. That is there is a variety of issues within their usage that can be addressed so there is no one-size fits all aspect to it. With myself my primary concern would be civilian casualties or what's commonly known as collateral damage. What I keep in mind though is that this occurs irrespective of the aerial platform. It's not the technology itself it's how we use that technology.

Agreed - the problems I have aren't with the technology itself. The possibility of the usage of that technology coming out ahead in a cost/benefit analysis is something that I think should be acknowledged. Even something as offensive as benefits from collateral damage should be part of the mix. The problem that I have is with the usage, and the cost/benefit analysis process.

235 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:56:02am

re: #232 HappyWarrior

You know even if he did, so what. Not every socialist is Stalin or dictatorial.

You commie.

236 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:56:36am

re: #229 mattand

Wasn't Truman's integration of the troops an Executive Order that could have been repealed?

I see what you're saying. It's frustrating because there's millions of Americans being denied basic rights because of their sexuality. It seems like this should be a no-brainer.

I would make an analogy with the Emancipation Proclamation, which actually made exceptions for some states. Doesn't diminish Lincoln's role.

237 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:56:59am

re: #231 Decatur Deb

I was in HQDA long enough to watch the status of gays move from felon to DADT and on to a push for open service. It's shocking to hear younger lefties attack the DADT era. It was a great leap forward and took guts. A lot of the Army leadership was genuinely worried about the impact it would have on unit cohesion while we were fighting two prolonged wars. Enough crap happened, like the Ft. Campbell murder, to justify that concern. There was no faster pathway to equity.

You have to realize a lot of us younger lefties are probably the most gay rights of any generation. I understand your point however.

238 Kronocide  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:57:54am

re: #232 HappyWarrior

You know even if he did, so what. Not every socialist is Stalin or dictatorial.

No no no. Socialist = Stalin = 100,000,000,000's will die. Because.

239 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:58:17am

re: #238 Kronocide

No no no. Socialist = Stalin = 100,000,000,000's will die. Because.

Mao!

240 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:58:17am

re: #238 Kronocide

No no no. Socialist = Stalin = 100,000,000,000's will die. Because.

OOGA BOOGA.

241 darthstar  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:58:22am

I get to work and some dude parked his plane outside my window. Wheels up at 10am PST - I'll try to get a crappy phone-cam video of it and the escorts going up.

Image: 303346_10150929307068024_669978023_227255091_1766773492_n.jpg

242 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:59:17am

re: #239 Gus

Mao!

Socialist fat cat!

243 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:59:22am

This reminds me but I got one guy rolling when I agreed that there were great socialists in history. He was steaming. Yeah Clement Attlee the socialist who is largely responsible for modern Britain's success was awful.

244 darthstar  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:59:38am

Still too early, but encouraging numbers nonetheless...

Florida:
Obama: 48 (49)
Romney: 44 (41)

Ohio:
Obama: 48 (50)
Romney: 42 (38)

Virginia:
Obama: 48 (52)
Romney: 44 (35)

245 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:59:39am

GULAG!

246 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:59:47am

That stuff is from 2008.

247 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 8:59:51am

re: #241 darthstar

I get to work and some dude parked his plane outside my window. Wheels up at 10am PST - I'll try to get a crappy phone-cam video of it and the escorts going up.

Image: 303346_10150929307068024_669978023_227255091_1766773492_n.jpg

I'm wondering if, sometime in the near future, the President will upgrade to a Dreamliner. Not that I don't love the 747, mind, but it's showing its age a little bit.

248 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:00:36am

Look right here.

249 Kronocide  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:00:48am

I've always had this clownish imagery of Blues Brothers doing 'Rubber Biscuit' and instead of 'Bow Bow Bow' you say 'Mao Mao Mao.'

OK, carry on....

250 darthstar  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:01:38am

re: #247 thedopefishlives

I'm wondering if, sometime in the near future, the President will upgrade to a Dreamliner. Not that I don't love the 747, mind, but it's showing its age a little bit.

I could see Mitt upgrading to a Dreamliner if he was president. It takes several years to outfit one of these planes, and the cost of doing so would be so high that if any Democratic president tried to do it the 'splodey heads would be all over the place.

251 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:02:50am

re: #236 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

I would make an analogy with the Emancipation Proclamation, which actually made exceptions for some states. Doesn't diminish Lincoln's role.

The Emancipation Proclamation was a wartime decree which applied only to states in active rebellion against the United States. It did not apply to states which were part of the Union or to areas that were under U.S. occupation.

The EP did not end slavery in the U.S., the 14th Amendment did that.

Oh and, the former Confederate states, after being defeated, had to reapply to be re-admitted to the Union and that meant explicitly accepting the 14th Amendment. The alternative was to remain under military occupation.

252 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:03:33am

re: #250 darthstar

I could see Mitt upgrading to a Dreamliner if he was president. It takes several years to outfit one of these planes, and the cost of doing so would be so high that if any Democratic president tried to do it the 'splodey heads would be all over the place.

He wouldn't need to upgrade to a Dreamliner, he's probably already got one. "Only" one, of course, because he's just an average Joe like the rest of us.

253 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:03:44am

re: #237 HappyWarrior

You have to realize a lot of us younger lefties are probably the most gay rights of any generation. I understand your point however.

There is an ethic that's built into the DoD--individual rights are secondary to the function of the organization. That's because the existence of the country really depends on it. (The ultimate example is the Selective Service Act.) The best-intentioned leaders out there had to make sure that groping towards justice wouldn't shatter the force. Admittedly, that is the Bigot's Veto on a grand scale--but the gamble was real.

254 lawhawk  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:05:34am

re: #247 thedopefishlives

Dreamliner (787) is functionally a smaller plane than the 747. Even the 777 is smaller than the 747 though both would have similar range to the 747*. Only plane that is as large or larger than 747 is the Airbus A380 and I can't see the US buying the A380 as AF1.

More likely is that we'd see a one-off variant of the 747 for a new AF1 that incorporates many of the benefits of the 787/777, including new and improved engines, avionics, materials to make it lighter, faster, and more efficient.

* the AF1 variant for the 747 has unlimited range due to air-to-air refueling capabilities and any new AF1 would have similar capabilities addressed in fitting out the plane for service. That's why size matters - any new AF1 would have to provide at least the same level of space as the current aircraft. They wont go smaller.

255 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:06:26am

re: #227 thedopefishlives

I'm trying not to get annoyed conversing with conspiracy theorists. They don't even know how to read, and yet they manage to regurgitate all this crap that some people actually find believable.

Yes, I feel your pain.

The more I Iearn about the alternate, yet concurrent, realities in which people live. the more freaked I get.

Science Fiction come true.

256 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:07:40am

re: #254 lawhawk

Yeah, I could see that. I realized that it was a smaller plane, but I was just thinking in terms of the luxury and prestige elements. Of course, they could certainly upgrade a 747-400 frame with those elements, or even outfit a 747-8 (though I think the 747-8 has a shorter range, which would be less desirable).

257 Lidane  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:09:22am

re: #112 Gus

Maru turns 5 years old.

[Embedded content]

My oldest cat just sat there watching this entire video. She even got annoyed when I pet her and distracted her. Hahaha.

258 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:10:20am

re: #255 ggt

Yes, I feel your pain.

The more I Iearn about the alternate, yet concurrent, realities in which people live. the more freaked I get.

Science Fiction come true.

The specific incident that ticked me off was that someone on the JREF forums had posted a link to a fascinating BBC article describing the legacy of the kids and grandkids of famous high-ranking Nazis. It opened with an anecdote about Rudolf Hoess's children playing in the pool at the villa that was literally adjacent to the Auschwitz extermination camp where their father worked. The conspiracy theorist in question immediately said, "Well, that disproves the Holocaust because hat about all the Jews playing in the pool? They would've heard the screams from the gas chambers." Uhh... This was the commandant's personal home, what Jews would have been there?

259 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:11:57am

re: #258 thedopefishlives

The specific incident that ticked me off was that someone on the JREF forums had posted a link to a fascinating BBC article describing the legacy of the kids and grandkids of famous high-ranking Nazis. It opened with an anecdote about Rudolf Hoess's children playing in the pool at the villa that was literally adjacent to the Auschwitz extermination camp where their father worked. The conspiracy theorist in question immediately said, "Well, that disproves the Holocaust because hat about all the Jews playing in the pool? They would've heard the screams from the gas chambers." Uhh... This was the commandant's personal home, what Jews would have been there?

Oh, the Auschwitz swimming pool is their favorite meme.

My post on that: [Link: holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com...]

260 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:12:06am

re: #258 thedopefishlives

The specific incident that ticked me off was that someone on the JREF forums had posted a link to a fascinating BBC article describing the legacy of the kids and grandkids of famous high-ranking Nazis. It opened with an anecdote about Rudolf Hoess's children playing in the pool at the villa that was literally adjacent to the Auschwitz extermination camp where their father worked. The conspiracy theorist in question immediately said, "Well, that disproves the Holocaust because hat about all the Jews playing in the pool? They would've heard the screams from the gas chambers." Uhh... This was the commandant's personal home, what Jews would have been there?

The gas chambers were pretty damn soundproof.

261 Eventual Carrion  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:12:52am

re: #216 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

What about clubbing baby banks?

With a lead filled wingtip shoe!


Note: Sorry Frank.

262 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:14:23am

re: #259 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Oh, the Auschwitz swimming pool is their favorite meme.

My post on that: [Link: holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com...]

I believe the denier was conflating that pool with the one described in this article, which was outside the fence and belonged to Hoess on his private property. Just goes to show how disconnected from reality these people are.

263 dragonath  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:14:51am

Obama should have never let Mike Tyson be his Photoshop Czar.

264 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:18:16am

Can someone please point to this alleged redistribution of wealth that going on right now under the evil socialist president, Obama? I can't seem to be able to find it.

//

265 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:18:49am

re: #260 Learned Mother of Zion

The gas chambers were pretty damn soundproof.

Not necessarily, witnesses nearby heard victims screaming, as well as singing songs as diverse as Hatikva and Internationale.

Of course, Auschwitz was a gigantic complex with Hoess' villa not being anywhere near the extermination camp of Auschwitz-Birkenau but rather in the concentration camp Auschwitz I.

266 Obdicut  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:19:43am

re: #264 Gus

Can someone please point to this alleged redistribution of wealth that going on right now under the evil socialist president, Obama? I can't seem to be able to find it.

//

The rich are getting richer, the middle class's share of national wealth is shrinking. So, there, redistribution of wealth.

267 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:20:27am

re: #264 Gus

Can someone please point to this alleged redistribution of wealth that going on right now under the evil socialist president, Obama? I can't seem to be able to find it.

//

Yeah, let me know, too. I could use a little wealth redistributed my way, kthxbye.

268 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:21:05am

re: #258 thedopefishlives

The specific incident that ticked me off was that someone on the JREF forums had posted a link to a fascinating BBC article describing the legacy of the kids and grandkids of famous high-ranking Nazis. It opened with an anecdote about Rudolf Hoess's children playing in the pool at the villa that was literally adjacent to the Auschwitz extermination camp where their father worked. The conspiracy theorist in question immediately said, "Well, that disproves the Holocaust because hat about all the Jews playing in the pool? They would've heard the screams from the gas chambers." Uhh... This was the commandant's personal home, what Jews would have been there?

Ignorance, ask if they've ever been there personally. How big do they think the compound was? Location of gas chambers to house.

Do you hear your neighbor's dog when it barks in the house next door?

geez?

269 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:22:06am

re: #262 thedopefishlives

I believe the denier was conflating that pool with the one described in this article, which was outside the fence and belonged to Hoess on his private property. Just goes to show how disconnected from reality these people are.

I remember reading an article about a young German whose father was a mid-level nazi, who converted to Judaism, became an Orthodox Jew and served in the IDF. This was about 20 years ago IIRC and was reported in the Jewish media.

270 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:22:07am

re: #264 Gus

Can someone please point to this alleged redistribution of wealth that going on right now under the evil socialist president, Obama? I can't seem to be able to find it.

//

Yeah, it's going to Wall Street Bankers.

271 ShaunP  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:22:25am

One more survey showing that either:

1 - Fox attracts the dumbest audience
-or-
2 - Watching Fox literally makes you dumber

Survey: No News Is Better Than Fox News

Image: Picture_72.png

272 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:24:04am

re: #269 Learned Mother of Zion

I remember reading an article about a young German whose father was a mid-level nazi, who converted to Judaism, became an Orthodox Jew and served in the IDF. This was about 20 years ago IIRC and was reported in the Jewish media.

I have to admit, in the midst of the sterile historical narrative about the Holocaust, you kind of miss the fact that a lot of the Nazis had family. Reading that BBC article really brought home to me just how hard it must be to be a living descendant of some of the most evil men to walk the earth.

273 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:25:24am

re: #272 thedopefishlives

I have to admit, in the midst of the sterile historical narrative about the Holocaust, you kind of miss the fact that a lot of the Nazis had family. Reading that BBC article really brought home to me just how hard it must be to be a living descendant of some of the most evil men to walk the earth.

Goering's children had themselves sterilized so they wouldn't pass on their family DNA.

274 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:25:56am

I was, SO waiting for this:

Kirk Cameron Finally Weighs in on How Gays Will Destroy Civilization

275 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:26:08am

re: #273 Learned Mother of Zion

Goering's children had themselves sterilized so they wouldn't pass on their family DNA.

Yeah, it mentioned that in the article. I don't know what I would do if I were in that situation, honestly. It's unfathomable to someone who is of no remarkable descent.

276 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:26:30am

re: #272 thedopefishlives

I have to admit, in the midst of the sterile historical narrative about the Holocaust, you kind of miss the fact that a lot of the Nazis had family. Reading that BBC article really brought home to me just how hard it must be to be a living descendant of some of the most evil men to walk the earth.

Not bad. //

277 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:27:18am

re: #276 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Not bad. //

And then you have the other side of the equation. Oi.

278 Mattand  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:28:50am

re: #255 ggt

Yes, I feel your pain.

The more I Iearn about the alternate, yet concurrent, realities in which people live. the more freaked I get.

Science Fiction come true.

Buddy of mine is a half-baked truther: he believes we invaded Afghanistan in order to build an oil pipeline. When pressed on the whole airplane-WTC side of the equation, he goes strangely mute.

I know another guy who thinks UFO sightings are human time travelers from a distant century, yet is an engineer who extolls the virtue of solid evidence before building a project.

279 Lidane  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:30:16am

re: #274 ggt

I was, SO waiting for this:

Kirk Cameron Finally Weighs in on How Gays Will Destroy Civilization

So nothing more than the usual banal, dated talking points from Kirk Cameron, then? Big surprise.

280 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:31:12am

re: #278 mattand

Buddy of mine is a half-baked truther: he believes we invaded Afghanistan in order to build an oil pipeline. When pressed on the whole airplane-WTC side of the equation, he goes strangely mute.

I know another guy who thinks UFO sightings are human time travelers from a distant century, yet is an engineer who extolls the virtue of solid evidence before building a project.

there was a link. . . about conspiracy believers --may are engineers --analytical people. Strange that.

UFO sightings can be humans from a distant century --no one get's hurt by that belief (as long as we don't try to legislate policy around it).

281 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:32:22am

re: #279 Lidane

So nothing more than the usual banal, dated talking points from Kirk Cameron, then? Big surprise.

Yes, it just isn't natural!!!!!!!! Why that should be a reason for anything and exactly what is "natural" when a person is wearing modern clothing and using modern products and driving modern cars is beyond me.

282 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:32:33am

re: #269 Learned Mother of Zion

I remember reading an article about a young German whose father was a mid-level nazi, who converted to Judaism, became an Orthodox Jew and served in the IDF. This was about 20 years ago IIRC and was reported in the Jewish media.

I meant to say that this was reported about 20 years ago, but the conversion took place sometime after the 1967 war. The convert then went on to raise a large family of Jewish children and grandchildren.

283 ShaunP  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:32:42am

re: #274 ggt

I was, SO waiting for this:

Kirk Cameron Finally Weighs in on How Gays Will Destroy Civilization

Don't call him a homophobe though. He ain't scared of gays. He just thinks they're going to destroy our civilization / ruin marriage / gay-ify his kids...

284 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:34:00am

re: #283 ShaunP

Don't call him a homophobe though. He ain't scared of gays. He just thinks they're going to destroy our civilization / ruin marriage / gay-ify his kids...

As usual, "I think the Lady doth protest too much."

285 Lidane  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:35:31am

re: #278 mattand

Years ago, I knew someone who swore up and down he'd been abducted by aliens and had gone on a UFO and everything. He was heavily involved in some UFO "investigation" group trying to prove it all.

I thought it was weird, but ultimately, harmless.

286 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:35:41am

Yeah. I mean it's just "that easy" to "make people gay." Pretty stupid.

287 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:35:50am

re: #280 ggt

there was a link. . . about conspiracy believers --may are engineers --analytical people. Strange that.

Scientists are usually analytical. Engineers? They know enough to plan things, and planning things makes some of them feel like they're ready for any problem, just apply a bit of that "engineering thought" here and there (I'm obviously applying broad brushstrokes). Esp. you will have a lot of creationists among the engineers (for psychologically obvious reasons).

288 lawhawk  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:36:20am

re: #274 ggt

You and me both. I absolutely, positively must take my cues from Hollywood types. /

289 gwangung  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:36:36am

re: #287 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Scientists are usually analytical. Engineers? They know enough to plan things, and planning things makes some of them feel like they're ready for any problem, just apply a bit of that "engineering thought" here and there (I'm obviously applying broad brushstrokes). Esp. you will have a lot of creationists among the engineers (for psychologically obvious reasons).

Salem Hypothesis!

290 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:36:37am

re: #286 Gus

Yeah. I mean it's just "that easy" to "make people gay." Pretty stupid.

You know, if it was that easy to make people gay, you'd think one look at Richard Simmons would turn them back straight./

291 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:37:32am

re: #290 thedopefishlives

You know, if it was that easy to make people gay, you'd think one look at Richard Simmons would turn them back straight./

I "chose" to start thinking of Shakira instead.

//

292 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:38:24am

re: #291 Gus

I "chose" to start thinking of Shakira instead.

//

And there goes my productivity for the day.

293 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:39:21am

re: #292 thedopefishlives

And there goes my productivity for the day.

Time to watch the weather report on Telemundo.

//

294 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:42:22am

New Joisy!

295 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:44:12am

re: #289 gwangung

Salem Hypothesis!

Basically, "knowing some useful math and skills" doesn't necessarily get you far in philosophy, science, humanities etc., but you might get that impression.

296 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:46:24am

re: #295 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Basically, "knowing some useful math and skills" doesn't necessarily get you far in philosophy, science, humanities etc., but you might get that impression.

The most important thing is to have an ample supply of beer and snacks.

//

297 lawhawk  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:46:26am

re: #294 Gus

He wont scale back his tax cut plan in light of the larger than expected (but not unexpected by those who have been following along like myself) deficit. Instead, he plans on using one-shots to balance the budget - namely borrowing from the transportation trust fund and using monies previously dedicated for clean energy.

Since he has vowed to keep property tax relief on the table - in the form of an income tax cut, he's throwing fiscal responsibility out the window. The legislature in Trenton isn't going to stand up to him either - they're looking at November too and see tax cuts as a winning issue for them, even though it puts the state in a worse position fiscally.

298 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:47:16am

re: #295 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Basically, "knowing some useful math and skills" doesn't necessarily get you far in philosophy, science, humanities etc., but you might get that impression.

I'm horrible at math, but I "A"'ced Logic -(Philosophy Class)

299 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:47:38am

off to watch a movie with the kid.

Have a great day all!

300 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:47:46am

re: #297 lawhawk

Sooner or later they're going to have to deal with this so in the end it will come back to haunt them. I say them because it won't be just Christie's problem.

301 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:48:23am

And who can forget about the Jihadi engineers!

Also, that Engineer guy in the Hellraiser movie was pretty bad. /

302 Kronocide  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:48:49am

re: #274 ggt

I was, SO waiting for this:

Kirk Cameron Finally Weighs in on How Gays Will Destroy Civilization

Hm, lessee... butt seks or asteroid, which is more dangerous....

Cameron's massive weaponized ignorance is much more detrimental.

(homosexuality is not at all detrimental, the scorn of homosexuality is)

303 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:49:23am

No one said there would be maths.

304 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:50:34am

re: #303 Gus

No one said there would be maths.

I told you actually, but your ears were missing./

305 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:51:10am

re: #304 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

I told you actually, but your ears were missing./

I must be reading with the listening part of my brain.

//

306 b_sharp  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:51:26am

re: #274 ggt

I was, SO waiting for this:

Kirk Cameron Finally Weighs in on How Gays Will Destroy Civilization

Ahinoam, Abigail, Maachah, Haggith, Abital, Eglah, and Bath-shua (Bathsheba) will all be happy to know one man and one woman as a definition of marriage is being upheld by a man of Cameron's stature.

307 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:51:55am

re: #305 Gus

I must be reading with the listening part of my brain.

//

Don't tell me what you're typing with.//

308 b_sharp  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:53:05am

re: #285 Lidane

Years ago, I knew someone who swore up and down he'd been abducted by aliens and had gone on a UFO and everything. He was heavily involved in some UFO "investigation" group trying to prove it all.

I thought it was weird, but ultimately, harmless.

I bin Probed!

309 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:53:15am

re: #259 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Oh, the Auschwitz swimming pool is their favorite meme.

My post on that: [Link: holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com...]

Your blog is blocked by the firewall here, they have apparently misidentified it as a denier site instead of an anti-denier site.

310 Kronocide  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:54:08am
“I believe marriage was defined by God. Marriage is almost as old as dirt, and it was defined in the Garden between Adam and Eve. One man, one woman for life till death do you part. So I would never attempt to try to redefine marriage. And I don’t think anyone else should either. So do I support the idea of gay marriage? No, I don’t.”

Family Ties indeed.

311 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:54:31am

re: #285 Lidane

Years ago, I knew someone who swore up and down he'd been abducted by aliens and had gone on a UFO and everything. He was heavily involved in some UFO "investigation" group trying to prove it all.

I thought it was weird, but ultimately, harmless.

Musta been kidnapped by Ludwig and the Zionists of Remulak.

312 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:55:11am

The way I see it. Who cares what Kirk Cameron thinks. I'd rather get the opinion of 24 people randomly chosen from the white pages.

313 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:55:18am

re: #309 Learned Mother of Zion

Your blog is blocked by the firewall here, they have apparently misidentified it as a denier site instead of an anti-denier site.

Yeah, filter-people are usually not above average, intelligence-wise.

314 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:55:36am

What does Kim Kardashian think?

315 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:56:12am

re: #314 Gus

What does Kim Kardashian think?

She can think?

316 b_sharp  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:56:20am

re: #312 Gus

The way I see it. Who cares what Kirk Cameron thinks. I'd rather get the opinion of 24 people randomly chosen from the white pages.

You Phone Book racist!

What's wrong with the yellow pages?

317 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:56:22am

Kirk Cameron? Talk about has beens.

318 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:57:07am

re: #317 HappyWarrior

Kirk Cameron? Talk about has beens.

If Kirk Cameron speaks in a forest...

319 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:57:38am

No wait. CNN will let him talk. CNN will let just about any idiot have the podium. Next to Fox News.

320 b_sharp  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:57:44am

re: #318 Gus

If Kirk Cameron speaks in a forest...

Does the bear give a shit?

321 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:59:11am

re: #318 Gus

If Kirk Cameron speaks in a forest...

Then pity the forest creatures??

322 Lidane  Thu, May 24, 2012 9:59:41am

re: #306 Ghost of Insanity

Ahinoam, Abigail, Maachah, Haggith, Abital, Eglah, and Bath-shua (Bathsheba) will all be happy to know one man and one woman as a definition of marriage is being upheld by a man of Cameron's stature.

Heh. Good point.

323 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:00:12am

Not that I don't know the names, but I would have to google "Kim Kardashian" and "Kirk Cameron" to learn about them more than that they're celebrities.

324 b_sharp  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:00:38am

re: #322 Lidane

Heh. Good point.

Wasn't Jesus a descendent of David?

325 b_sharp  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:01:16am

re: #323 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Not that I don't know the names, but I would have to google "Kim Kardashian" and "Kirk Cameron" to learn about them more than that they're celebrities.

Well, they're both smart as a brick.

326 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:01:35am

re: #324 Ghost of Insanity

Wasn't Jesus a descendent of David?

Davidic dynasty is patrilineal, so, um, no.

327 wrenchwench  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:03:43am

re: #323 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Not that I don't know the names, but I would have to google "Kim Kardashian" and "Kirk Cameron" to learn about them more than that they're celebrities.

Me too, and I live here! But I lack TV.

328 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:03:58am

re: #326 Learned Mother of Zion

Davidic dynasty is patrilineal, so, um, no.

While both gospel genealogies are indeed through Joseph, in theory Jesus could be descended from Dave through Mary too. I'm not sure the patrilineal thing is spelled out in the Tanakh, so I don't think that would be a barrier to calling him that.

329 b_sharp  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:04:10am

re: #326 Learned Mother of Zion

Davidic dynasty is patrilineal, so, um, no.

Genetic descendent. Other ways of determining the relationship are false.

330 Lidane  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:04:36am

re: #324 Ghost of Insanity

Wasn't Jesus a descendent of David?

I think so, yes. Been a while since I read the Bible.

331 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:05:52am

re: #328 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

While both gospel genealogies are indeed through Joseph, in theory Jesus could be descended from Dave through Mary too. I'm not sure the patrilineal thing is spelled out in the Tanakh, so I don't think that would be a barrier to calling him that.

But if Joseph wasn't really his father, what's the point?

332 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:05:53am

re: #329 Ghost of Insanity

Genetic descendent. Other ways of determining the relationship are false.

Real Jesus? We don't know.
Biblical Jesus? Depends.

The genealogies are given for Joseph, and the claim is that Joseph was a legal, but not genetic father.
However, NT also claims he was David's descendant by his flesh, so one could say that, I guess (when talking about the NT Jesus, not the historical Jesus).

333 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:07:46am

re: #331 Learned Mother of Zion

But if Joseph wasn't really his father, what's the point?

Are you asking about the genealogies or the descent? If the latter, Mary could be David's descendant. If the former, one could posit that he was a legal descendant of David anyway, being born in Joe's family, Joe being the legal father.

334 b_sharp  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:08:03am

re: #331 Learned Mother of Zion

But if Joseph wasn't really his father, what's the point?

Genes matter, name does not.

Even the new-evangelists don't doubt genetic relationships.

335 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:08:14am

Oh brother.

336 Lidane  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:10:02am

Oh, this should be fun. Newt's on Hardball tonight.

337 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:11:22am

OMG. I sent Zedushka to the store to buy a brisket for the holiday and he spent $96.

We will have Brisket for the next 3 years.

338 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:11:44am

re: #337 Learned Mother of Zion

OMG. I sent Zedushka to the store to buy a brisket for the holiday and he spent $96.

We will have Brisket for the next 3 years.

Lesson learned!

339 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:13:53am

Just got back from doing the early voting thing and casting my ballot for Tom Barrett. Hopefully he'll win but damn, the GOP machine is spending money like, well, I'd say drunken sailors but I've known them and these guys make the sailors look fiscally responsible.

OTOH, the line was out the city clerk's office door and halfway to the street even with three people handing out ballots.

On the Gripping Hand, this is Madison which is as deep a blue place as exists in the nation and how that compares to the rest of the state remains to be seen.

We'll know June 6...

340 Lidane  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:14:02am

re: #337 Learned Mother of Zion

OMG. I sent Zedushka to the store to buy a brisket for the holiday and he spent $96.

We will have Brisket for the next 3 years.

$96? Just how big of a brisket did he buy?

341 b_sharp  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:14:40am

I had this argument with my father several years ago. My youngest brother was getting married and wanted to change his name to the form 'husband-wife' but my dad threatened to essentially boycott the wedding unless the name was in 'wife-husband' form.

Even after I told him he was being an ass, he insisted and my brother gave in.

Old people need to loosen up.

342 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:14:50am

re: #340 Lidane

$96? Just how big of a brisket did he buy?

Got to be the size of a fatted calf. A very fat calf.

343 Lidane  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:15:40am

re: #339 William Barnett-Lewis

Just saw this:

90,000 Absentee Ballots Already Issued In Wisconsin Recall

344 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:16:51am

Going to be ugly in Wisconsin no matter what happens I think. I hope Bartlett can beat Walker. Walker's shown himself to be a total jerk.

345 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:16:58am

The most awesome Obama photo EVER.

346 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:17:22am

re: #339 William Barnett-Lewis

Just got back from doing the early voting thing and casting my ballot for Tom Barrett. Hopefully he'll win but damn, the GOP machine is spending money like, well, I'd say drunken sailors but I've known them and these guys make the sailors look fiscally responsible.

OTOH, the line was out the city clerk's office door and halfway to the street even with three people handing out ballots.

On the Gripping Hand, this is Madison which is as deep a blue place as exists in the nation and how that compares to the rest of the state remains to be seen.

We'll know June 6...

Good luck--all the polls equate to something like 50/50, but Intrade has bet it all on Walker.

347 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:18:35am

re: #345 Learned Mother of Zion

The most awesome Obama photo EVER.

Wingnuts claiming it's Photoshopped in 4..3..2..

348 Gus  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:18:56am

Colombia rebels' hostage recalls friendship with wild pig
Sgt. Jose Libardo Forero, who was freed by FARC rebels in April, says Josefo, a little wild pig he kept as a pet, helped keep him sane during his jungle ordeal.

349 Interesting Times  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:20:16am

re: #339 William Barnett-Lewis

On the Gripping Hand, this is Madison which is as deep a blue place as exists in the nation and how that compares to the rest of the state remains to be seen.

We'll know June 6... as soon as the Waukesha county clerks finish "adjusting" their MS Access database.

Fixed.

350 Lidane  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:20:35am

re: #347 Learned Mother of Zion

Wingnuts claiming it's Photoshopped in 4..3..2..

He's not bowing in front of a little boy! He's actually bowing in front of our enemies! See? Photoshop! LAYERZ! OMG!

/Breitbart

351 b_sharp  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:21:30am

We just had a talk show host call the students demonstrating in Quebec terrorists.

Don't these people realize that if they overuse the word it will lose all meaning magic?

352 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:25:48am

re: #337 Learned Mother of Zion

OMG. I sent Zedushka to the store to buy a brisket for the holiday and he spent $96.

We will have Brisket for the next 3 years.

I bought a 14Lb Imported German ham for the family get together at my Aunt's for Mother's day, and with much dedication and sacrifice managed to finish of the leftovers in only a week.

You will just have to get inventive, granted I could (and did) use the ham in fried ham and eggs, omelets, soup, sandwiches, quiche, stir fry, and by just cutting off large hunks and eating them as a snack while the uses for brisket that immediately come to mind seem somewhat more limited...

353 Lidane  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:31:41am

Cue the RWNJ cognitive dissonance:

Sandra Fluke Condemns Hustler's Pornographic Depiction of Conservative Columnist

Sandra Fluke — who first came to prominence for her opposition to the GOP’s efforts to restrict women’s access to birth control — is speaking out against Hustler magazine’s doctored pornographic image of conservative commentator S.E. Cupp. The Georgetown law student took to Twitter to call the depiction “offensive”.

354 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 24, 2012 10:39:50am

re: #353 Lidane

Cue the RWNJ cognitive dissonance:

Sandra Fluke Condemns Hustler's Pornographic Depiction of Conservative Columnist

They'll either ignore it or try to spin it as Fluke being okay with it. That's how craven they are.


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