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1 wrenchwench  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:54:45pm

Hmmm. Needs frills.

[Turn your headphones down.]

2 freetoken  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:58:33pm

San Diego columnist Logan Jenkins remembers two crime victims and a local leader in JUDGE AND LATE VISTA TRUSTEE EARN BOUQUETS

There is a real miscarriage of justice in both of the crime cases, with the perps walking free.

The third person on discussion is the former Vista, California politician Linda Rhoades:

A bouquet — the Unsinkable Spirit award — to Linda Rhoades, the three-term member of the Vista school board who survived the culture war of the early ’90s with unflinching grace.

[...]

As an editor at the late Times-Advocate, I remember her making her painfully slow way into the newsroom on crutches. A childhood polio victim, she always had a genuine, never fake, smile on her face.

Reporters loved her because she was wired to level with them in no-nonsense language.

“Make no mistake — teaching creationism is illegal. We are going to get sued,” Rhoades said after a controversial vote.

“Linda couldn’t dissemble if her life depended on it,” recalled Rene Townsend, the superintendent during the turbulent time when three right-wing culture warriors turned the district into a three-ring media circus featuring in one ring creationism as an alternative to evolution; in another, prayer at meetings; and in another, abstinence-only sex ed.

[...]

“It was a stressful time that took a physical toll,” said son Robert Rhoades.

[...]

In 2000, Rhoades was defeated in an election where anti-abortion forces marched in front of churches and accused opposing candidates of not being true Christians. Rhoades was caught in the partisan crossfire and lost her seat.

But Rhoades, a longtime project manager for low-income housing, did not slow down, serving on various commissions and boards, including the Parks and Recreation Commission, Vista Community Clinic and North County Lifeline.

A couple of weeks ago, Rhoades succumbed to ovarian cancer at age 63. Memorial services are scheduled for 1 p.m., June 1, at the North Coast Church in Vista.

If turnout for such events is determined by the number of lives one fights for, the megachurch should be packed to the rafters.

3 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sun, May 27, 2012 3:59:33pm

Afternoon Lizardim. How is everyone doing on this fair and very hot Memorial Day?

4 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:02:35pm

re: #3 thedopefishlives

Afternoon Lizardim. How is everyone doing on this fair and very hot Memorial Day?

I'm all right. Went down to the Field Museum to see the new 'Extreme Mammals" special exhibit. It's very good, but its rated NSFC (E), 'Not Safe for Creationists, contains discussion of evolution'.

5 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:04:33pm
6 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:06:01pm

re: #4 Dark_Falcon

I'm all right. Went down to the Field Museum to see the new 'Extreme Mammals" special exhibit. It's very good, but its rated NSFC (E), 'Not Safe for Creationists, contains discussion of evolution'.

DISCRIMINATION! We're being oppressed!

7 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:09:51pm
8 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:11:10pm

re: #3 thedopefishlives

Afternoon Lizardim. How is everyone doing on this fair and very hot Memorial Day?

Doing alright, kinda quiet with the folks outta town. I'm supposed to be leaving on Wednesday, but with the possibility of Beryl heading this way, now I'm not so sure.

9 sunnygal  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:11:46pm

No boats, none, nada, on our lake this weekend. The price of gas is really taking its toll, I guess. That and the cool (cold?) weather here in the Pacific NW must be the reason. But cool weather, in the past, hasn't stopped the boaters or even the waterskiers. We are paying more here, on the Left Coast, than the rest of the nation and the price of gas is going up (over $4 a gallon, sometimes as high as $4.20), not down, like in the rest of the nation.

Quite frankly, it's nice to enjoy a quiet Memorial Day weekend.

10 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:11:54pm

re: #7 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

[Embedded content]

Within the context of Memorial Day the answer is "no"

11 freetoken  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:13:05pm

re: #10 Gus

It seems a rather fallacious statement to me, in the strictest since, but I've not enough energy to unpack it all.

12 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:14:12pm

re: #11 freetoken

It seems a rather fallacious statement to me, in the strictest since, but I've not enough energy to unpack it all.

Ditto on that. I like to ignore Greenwald and I'm trying really hard to keep it that way.

13 freetoken  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:16:19pm

re: #12 Gus

Someday we'll tackle these things, I suppose.

But, it's a beautiful day outside, and I think I'll go for a walk.

14 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:17:20pm

re: #13 freetoken

Someday we'll tackle these things, I suppose.

But, it's a beautiful day outside, and I think I'll go for a walk.

71 and overcast here. I feel like merde otherwise.

15 Interesting Times  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:17:25pm
16 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:19:40pm

re: #14 Gus

71 and overcast here. I feel like merde otherwise.

90 degrees and clear, but thunderstorms are on their way. Perfect way to wrap up the day.

The Mrs. Fish and I did a Chopped: At Home this weekend for a change of pace. Basically, each of us bought $10 of ingredients from the local grocery store, then we had to combine them with stuff from our pantry and fridge to make a meal with it. It was real fun and a bit of a challenge, since neither of us are superstar chefs.

17 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:19:52pm

re: #7 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

"If calling troops "heroes" doesn't imply that the war is just,does that mean all troops for all nations fighting wars are equally heroic?"

No, for a very simple reason - "hero" is totally subjective.

18 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:20:22pm

re: #7 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

[Embedded content]

Heh. On July 4th we could praise King George, on Memorial day we could salute the Nazis and on Sept 11 we could ululate for Al Qaeda. Freedom fighters all!
/

19 Cheechako  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:20:29pm

re: #9 sunnygal

We are paying more here, on the Left Coast, than the rest of the nation and the price of gas is going up (over $4 a gallon, sometimes as high as $4.20), not down, like in the rest of the nation.

Don't complain. Last week, gas here in SE Alaska jumped up to $4.62/gal!! That last barge load of gas shipped up here must have been purchased at the very top of the market. Gas prices have been very tough on folks who want to go out and fish. And it's prime king salmon season.

20 wrenchwench  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:24:24pm

More frills.

21 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:25:01pm

re: #17 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

"If calling troops "heroes" doesn't imply that the war is just,does that mean all troops for all nations fighting wars are equally heroic?"

No, for a very simple reason - "hero" is totally subjective.

It's also relative. Which doesn't mean deep down I don't choose sides.

I hereby declare unilateral peace! Who's with me?!

//

22 freetoken  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:25:35pm

Zombie fetish gone too far?

Miami police shoot man found gnawing another's face: report

A Miami police officer shot and killed a naked man found chewing on another man's face on an exit ramp of a major causeway, local media reported on Sunday.

23 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:25:53pm

re: #21 Gus

It's also relative. Which doesn't mean deep down I don't choose sides.

I hereby declare unilateral peace! Who's with me?!

//

Ron Paul!

24 freetoken  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:26:13pm

No one warned me The Walking Dead was going to be a documentary.

25 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:26:22pm

re: #22 freetoken

Zombie fetish gone too far?

Miami police shoot man found gnawing another's face: report

At least he was gnawing only on the face... //

26 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:27:14pm

re: #22 freetoken

Zombie fetish gone too far?

Miami police shoot man found gnawing another's face: report

There's video over at liveleak. Doesn't show anything gory or graphic. All you can see is the men's legs. Still very disturbing.

27 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:27:31pm

re: #23 Killgore Trout

Ron Paul!

Roseanne Barr!

//

28 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:27:34pm

re: #22 freetoken

Zombie fetish gone too far?

Miami police shoot man found gnawing another's face: report

Well, that's it, the zombie apocalypse has begun. Time to head to the bomb shelter.

//

29 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:28:15pm

I, for one, welcome our new zombie overlords.

30 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:28:52pm

re: #22 freetoken

Zombie fetish gone too far?

Miami police shoot man found gnawing another's face: report

I guess we'll never get to ask him what it tasted like.

//

31 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:29:52pm

Coulda been worse:

32 dragonfire1981  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:31:33pm

So I'm wondering. At what point should a Church potentially lose their Tax exempt status due to wandering into the political arena?

Our preacher today gave a sermon which, while not directly mentioning any candidate or political party, certainly had heavy political themes.

Among the points made:

- The U.S. is a Christian nation because of the Declaration of Independence stating that all man are endowed by the Creator with equal rights. The preacher said the fact the C is capitalized is proof positive the writers of the document were referring to the Christian God since most pronouns are capitalized when referring to the Lord

- Said the U.S. was founded on "Judeo-Christian" principles

- Said the most dangerous place in America is the womb

- Said America is in danger of losing our supposed blessing in the eyes of the Lord and then immediately followed that with these two statements:

- Said the Bible specifically states marriage should be between one man and one woman by way of the Genesis scripture that immediately follows the creation of Eve from Adam's rib: "That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh."

- He said it's an insult to God when two people of the same gender stand before Him and proclaim their intent to get married.

- He also stressed the importance of Christians using whatever resources available to them to effect change in society, including the power to vote

Again, no particular mention of a specific political party or candidate was made, but in listening to it I just had to ponder whether it was the type of message that would be in conflict with the reasons for the tax exempt status of the Church.

33 Digital Display  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:31:35pm

What up Lizards? What a freaking race today at the 500! It was super exciting and on the bad side..It was the hottest day in history for an Indy 500..(Why is it that every time I go somewhere it's either the hottest or coldest day in History?)
A day at the track usually involves too much beer, water and fried chicken.
(Bright side..Fast cars and beautiful woman)
It's been great being around old buddies in Indiana.

34 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:33:58pm

re: #32 dragonfire1981

Are you an anthropologist?

//

35 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:34:04pm

re: #33 HoosierHoops

I watched the race on TV. I was slightly disappointed that they barely qualified 33 for the field. The 500 just isn't what it used to be, I'm afraid.

36 Iwouldprefernotto  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:35:12pm

re: #32 dragonfire1981

So I'm wondering. At what point should a Church potentially lose their Tax exempt status due to wandering into the political arena?

Our preacher today gave a sermon which, while not directly mentioning any candidate or political party, certainly had heavy political themes.

Among the points made:

- The U.S. is a Christian nation because of the Declaration of Independence stating that all man are endowed by the Creator with equal rights. The preacher said the fact the C is capitalized is proof positive the writers of the document were referring to the Christian God since most pronouns are capitalized when referring to the Lord

- Said the U.S. was founded on "Judeo-Christian" principles

- Said the most dangerous place in America is the womb

- Said America is in danger of losing our supposed blessing in the eyes of the Lord and then immediately followed that with these two statements:

- Said the Bible specifically states marriage should be between one man and one woman by way of the Genesis scripture that immediately follows the creation of Eve from Adam's rib: "That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh."

- He said it's an insult to God when two people of the same gender stand before Him and proclaim their intent to get married.

- He also stressed the importance of Christians using whatever resources available to them to effect change in society, including the power to vote

Again, no particular mention of a specific political party or candidate was made, but in listening to it I just had to ponder whether it was the type of message that would be in conflict with the reasons for the tax exempt status of the Church.

Time to get a new church.

37 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:39:08pm

re: #32 dragonfire1981

This raises the question that I've been thinking about. Re: SSM affecting religious institutions' tax exempt status. Can it? On a related note, can a church's choosing not to marry an interracial couple cost it its tax exempt status? One would think not, since then various Christian Identity churches could not "normally" exist. On the other hand, Bob Jones U lost tax exempt status because of interracial dating policies. Given this, is it correct to state that establishment of SSM won't affect tax exemption?

38 jaunte  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:39:51pm

re: #22 freetoken

Zombie fetish gone too far?

Miami police shoot man found gnawing another's face: report

Cheeky.

39 ProGunLiberal  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:40:57pm

re: #32 dragonfire1981

That is almost the exact circumstances that pushed me out of a Church in 2010, which caused me to question the Trinity, which caused me to convert.

40 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:41:57pm

This might remind you of something...

Chile-Peru landmine blast kills at least one in car

A Peruvian driver was killed when his car hit a landmine in northern Chile.

The Chilean army said the car - a taxi with a Peruvian number plate - crossed the border illegally on Friday night in the Arica and Parinacota region.

41 Decatur Deb  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:42:33pm

re: #37 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

This raises the question that I've been thinking about. Re: SSM affecting religious institutions' tax exempt status. Can it? On a related note, can a church's choosing not to marry an interracial couple cost it its tax exempt status? One would think not, since then various Christian Identity churches could not "normally" exist. On the other hand, Bob Jones U lost tax exempt status because of interracial dating policies. Given this, is it correct to state that establishment of SSM won't affect tax exemption?

Can't be an issue. No one is forcing the Catholic church to marry straight divorced Catholics now, even though divorce is legal.

42 ProGunLiberal  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:43:09pm

re: #40 Gus

Somewhere, a nutjob conservative got a boner and doesn't know why.

43 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:43:20pm

re: #41 Decatur Deb

Can't be an issue. No one is forcing the Catholic church to marry straight divorced Catholics now, even though divorce is legal.

Divorcees are not a "protected group".

44 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:45:21pm

re: #42 ProGunLiberal

Somewhere, a nutjob conservative got a boner and doesn't know why.

We should landmine the Mexican border! We don't need no stinkin' fence!!!1!1one

45 Stanghazi  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:45:30pm

Halooo

46 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:46:52pm

re: #42 ProGunLiberal

Somewhere, a nutjob conservative got a boner and doesn't know why.

Penischet was involved...

Chile and Peru are working with the Organization of American States to hire an international company to clear the mines.

The dictatorship of Gen. Augusto Pinochet laid hundreds of thousands of mines along Chile's borders with Peru and Bolivia in the 1970s, when it feared invasion from the north. Chile had sent most of its forces to the extreme south to defend against threats from Argentina. War was avoided after Pope John Paul II intervened.

47 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:47:12pm

re: #32 dragonfire1981

Well, I'd have been laughing out loud at any sermon like that one. Might even have to ask him if he was drunk before walking out. Not likely at my parish, thank you Lord, but I'd really suggest that you might be happier at a new church.

And, yeah, after I got done laughing, I'd drop a dime to complain to the IRS about it. It wouldn't be enough to lose anything for him, but it would get him either a phone call or possibly a visitor reminding him of where the legal bright lines lay.

48 jaunte  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:47:21pm

re: #40 Gus

Letelier was killed by a car bomb explosion on September 21, 1976, in Sheridan Circle, along with his US assistant, Ronni Moffitt.[1][dead link][2] Her husband Michael Moffitt was injured but survived. Several people were prosecuted and convicted for the murder. Among them were Michael Townley, a DINA U.S. expatriate who had once worked for the CIA; General Manuel Contreras, former head of the DINA; and Brigadier Pedro Espinoza, also formerly of DINA. Townley was convicted in the United States in 1978 and served 62 months in prison for the murder;[3] he is now free as a participant in the United States Federal Witness Protection Program. Contreras and Espinoza were convicted in Chile in 1993. General Augusto Pinochet, who died on December 10, 2006, was never brought to trial for the murders, although Townley implicated him as being responsible for them.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

49 Kragar  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:47:41pm

re: #44 thedopefishlives

We should landmine the Mexican border! We don't need no stinkin' fence!!!1!1one

Last guy who said that went nuts and killed his girlfriend, her family and himself.

True story.

50 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:48:14pm

re: #48 jaunte

Now we've done it. "They" will be up all night.

//

51 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:48:26pm

re: #46 Gus

It reminded me of Letelier.

52 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:48:58pm

re: #15 Interesting Times

[Embedded content]

Sadly, I can't even facepalm on that anymore. Most Americans really do care more about the filming of a singing contest than the fighting in Syria. But after Iraq, that's perhaps to be expected.

53 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:49:31pm

re: #49 Kragar

Last guy who said that went nuts and killed his girlfriend, her family and himself.

True story.

Hence why I put it in wingnut tags.

Interesting thought: I wonder if wingnuts and other members of the vast unhinged are more at risk for such murder/suicide acts than the population at large.

54 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:49:48pm
55 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:50:02pm

re: #48 jaunte

General Augusto Pinochet, who died on December 10, 2006, was never brought to trial for the murders, although Townley implicated him as being responsible for them.

Wise decision. Only third-world countries prosecute previous administrations. /

56 Stanghazi  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:51:54pm

re: #4 Dark_Falcon

I'm all right. Went down to the Field Museum to see the new 'Extreme Mammals" special exhibit. It's very good, but its rated NSFC (E), 'Not Safe for Creationists, contains discussion of evolution'.

"going down to the Field Museaum". You are so lucky to do that. Excellent?

57 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:52:04pm

re: #54 Gus

Good old days...

58 goddamnedfrank  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:52:59pm

re: #37 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

This raises the question that I've been thinking about. Re: SSM affecting religious institutions' tax exempt status. Can it? On a related note, can a church's choosing not to marry an interracial couple cost it its tax exempt status? One would think not, since then various Christian Identity churches could not "normally" exist. On the other hand, Bob Jones U lost tax exempt status because of interracial dating policies. Given this, is it correct to state that establishment of SSM won't affect tax exemption?

The decision in BJU v US was explicitly limited to educational institutions:

We deal here only with religious schools -- not with churches or other purely religious institutions; here, the governmental interest is in denying public support to racial discrimination in education. As noted earlier, racially discriminatory schools "exer[t] a pervasive influence on the entire educational process," outweighing any public benefit that they might otherwise provide, Norwood v. Harrison, 413 U.S. 455, 469 (1973). See generally Simon, 495-496.

59 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:53:49pm

re: #58 goddamnedfrank

Would BU have to allow same-sex couples?

60 jaunte  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:53:50pm

re: #54 Gus

Registered since: May 21, 2012 at 10:12 am

I remember back then, it was so much more lively.

61 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:54:27pm

re: #60 jaunte

I remember back then, it was so much more lively.

That's so long ago I barely remember.

62 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:55:01pm

re: #60 jaunte

I remember back then, it was so much more lively.

I can barely remember what I had for breakfast, let alone a whole week ago.

63 freetoken  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:55:27pm

re: #54 Gus

Yeah, the bot-Page that won't die.

It's the old My-Propaganda-Is-Really-True-Even-If-False story.

64 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:55:42pm

re: #61 Gus

That's so long ago I barely remember.

We were young and stupid back then... /

65 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:56:14pm

re: #63 freetoken

Yeah, the bot-Page that won't die.

It's the old My-Propaganda-Is-Really-True-Even-If-False story.

Breaking news! National Geographic used the wrong words in one sentence!

//

66 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:57:09pm

re: #56 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

"going down to the Field Museaum". You are so lucky to do that. Excellent?

I've always thought so. Renewed the family's membership today, and will be back to see the Genghis Khan exhibit. He was the only commander to ever conquer Afghanistan and have his nation hold it more than a dozen years.

67 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:57:43pm

Should be interesting to see who updings that comment comparing LGF to 4Chan. (cough)

68 Decatur Deb  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:58:20pm

re: #43 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Divorcees are not a "protected group".

SSM doesn't make gays protected. It makes them ordinary.

69 freetoken  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:58:44pm

re: #65 Gus

CAMERA has had a long run-in with NatGeo, because the latter was headed by a guy (who wrote the article in question, too) who won't take CAMERA's side in every issue.

70 Stanghazi  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:59:06pm

re: #64 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

We were young and stupid back then... /

Omg you made me lol in an inappropriate place. Huge smile I still have.

71 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:59:10pm

re: #67 Gus

I'm more interested in why CAMERA's disgusting defense of Assad's rule is not commented upon...

72 goddamnedfrank  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:59:35pm

re: #59 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Would BU have to allow same-sex couples?

Interesting, in principal yes. Bear in mind that there was a 16 year gap between Loving v Virginia and the BJU case, so I think it's safe to say that there's usually a certain amount of inertia involved.

73 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:59:38pm

re: #69 freetoken

CAMERA has had a long run-in with NatGeo, because the latter was headed by a guy (who wrote the article in question, too) who won't take CAMERA's side in every issue.

Yep. More of that good old fashioned ideological or should I say ethno-national puritanism. Giggity.

74 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 4:59:49pm

re: #59 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Would BU have to allow same-sex couples?

No, because that is not currently considered unlawful discrimination under federal law. This is per my understanding, I may be wrong and invite correction if I am, in fact, in error.

75 jaunte  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:00:29pm

re: #67 Gus

...that comment comparing LGF to 4Chan. (cough)

I must admit, I don't see the resemblance.

76 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:00:43pm

re: #68 Decatur Deb

SSM doesn't make gays protected. It makes them ordinary.

So does IRM. Yet what happens if a church refuses to marry blacks and whites? (Maybe not much, as BU was not a church...)

77 Stanghazi  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:00:51pm

re: #66 Dark_Falcon

I've always thought so. Renewed the family's membership today, and will be back to see the Genghis Khan exhibit. He was the only commander to ever conquer Afghanistan and have his nation hold it more than a dozen years.

You are lucky to have that at your fingertips. Is that where American Gothic is? I saw it in chi town!

78 freetoken  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:01:26pm

re: #75 jaunte

I must admit, I don't see the resemblance.

Here... maybe I can help - last week was Fashion Week in Rio.

79 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:01:33pm

re: #75 jaunte

I must admit, I don't see the resemblance.

Neither do I but hey. Close enough for the mentally lazy.

80 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:01:47pm

re: #72 goddamnedfrank

Interesting, in principal yes. Bear in mind that there was 16 year gap between Loving v Virginia and the BJU case, so I think it's safe to say that there's usually a certain amount of inertia involved.

I would actually love for this to happen, I'm just not sure what the real consequences will be. I'm not sure there won't be consequences.

81 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:02:41pm

re: #74 Dark_Falcon

No, because that is not currently considered unlawful discrimination under federal law. This is per my understanding, I may be wrong and invite correction if I am, in fact, in error.

Currently SSM is not legal on federal level in the US, so we're not talking about what currently is, but about the consequences of legalization of SSM.

82 Decatur Deb  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:02:51pm

re: #76 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

So does IRM. Yet what happens if a church refuses to marry blacks and whites? (Maybe not much, as BU was not a church...)

They could probably do that--the courts would trump with religious freedom.
(A church didn't want to marry me--I hadn't been in the parish long enough. Priest called me 'bum' in Latin.)

83 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:03:07pm

re: #75 jaunte

I must admit, I don't see the resemblance.

Neither do I. We've all had our moments of stupid, but we're nowhere near the depths that the /b/tards have plumbed.

84 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:04:29pm
85 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:04:35pm

re: #82 Decatur Deb

They could probably do that--the courts would trump with religious freedom.

Again, it depends on how the law deals with IRM (judging by racists churches, it doesn't).

86 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:05:03pm

Retweeted that. Should be interesting to see who unfollows me. I love being an iconoclast. =)

87 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:06:59pm

re: #86 Gus

=)

Step away from the frog, sir...

///

88 freetoken  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:08:07pm

Music: It's in your head, changing your brain

Pick one to determine your future:

A:

or B:

?

89 Stanghazi  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:08:12pm

re: #68 Decatur Deb

SSM doesn't make gays protected. It makes them ordinary.

Tweeted that. The lame argument of "special rights"

90 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:08:28pm

re: #87 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Step away from the frog, sir...

///

Gribbit.

91 goddamnedfrank  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:09:03pm

re: #80 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

I would actually love for this to happen, I'm just not sure what the real consequences will be. I'm not sure there won't be consequences.

Yeah, the bitching will be mighty for sure. Intellectually part of the problem with BJU's defense was that they were pulling their policy almost entirely out of their ass. It's difficult to find supporting passages in scripture, so their argument in favor of maintaining opposition to miscegenation fell back on cultural tradition and raw assertion. It's reasonable to expect that religious schools will make much stronger, more spirited defenses of their positions against condoning SSM, ones that draw on actual passages from the Bible and are more obviously rooted in actual religious conviction - however unethical and bigoted.

92 Decatur Deb  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:09:10pm

re: #85 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Again, it depends on how the law deals with IRM (judging by racists churches, it doesn't).

Don't ever see this as an issue. 'Religion' is a protected class, but it would be inconceivable that a Catholic priest would be forced to marry two Baptists.

93 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:10:10pm

re: #89 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Tweeted that. The lame argument of "special rights"

Protected group is a legal term.

94 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:11:02pm

re: #66 Dark_Falcon

I've always thought so. Renewed the family's membership today, and will be back to see the Genghis Khan exhibit. He was the only commander to ever conquer Afghanistan and have his nation hold it more than a dozen years.

Honestly, is there anything inAfghanistan that makes it worth holding for that long?

95 Kragar  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:11:51pm

re: #88 freetoken

Music: It's in your head, changing your brain

Pick one to determine your future:

A:

[Embedded content] ?

I pick C!

96 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:12:22pm

re: #91 goddamnedfrank

Good point one one hand. On the other, if they had their own traditional translation, or new scripture, or whatever, that was against IRM in explicit terms, do you think they would be TE? Can Christian Identity have a TE academy?

97 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:12:49pm

re: #94 jamesfirecat

Honestly, is there anything inAfghanistan that makes it worth holding for that long?

Maybe I'm weird but I'd like to see us leave sooner. I could be wrong. But, Obama gave us our marching orders and that means waiting until 2014 for the pull-out. I can live with that.

98 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:13:00pm

re: #77 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

You are lucky to have that at your fingertips. Is that where American Gothic is? I saw it in chi town!

American Gothic is at the Art Institute, actually. The Field Museum is of 'Natural History', which also extends to depictions of present day cultures from other parts of the world.

99 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:13:45pm

re: #94 jamesfirecat

Honestly, is there anything inAfghanistan that makes it worth holding for that long?

At the time, places like Herat were on the Silk Road, which was worth holding for its commerce.

100 Bear  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:15:05pm

OT
Just saw some pictures of the Golden Gate Bridge that first opened 75 years ago today. Especially interested to me is the picture of the first day the Bridge was opened to foot traffic. I, my parents, and grandparents walked the Bridge that day. [Link: www.latimes.com...]

101 Decatur Deb  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:15:54pm

re: #98 Dark_Falcon

American Gothic is at the Art Institute, actually. The Field Museum is of 'Natural History', which also extends to depictions of present day cultures from other parts of the world.

Always had great luck at the Field. I was sent to Chicago on temporary duty and wandered into the Tut exhibit with no waiting period (first day, I guess). Also saw "I Follow the Morning Star" Ghost Dance exhibit, later.

102 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:16:36pm

re: #100 Bear

OT
Just saw some pictures of the Golden Gate Bridge that first opened 75 years ago today. Especially interested to me is the picture of the first day the Bridge was opened to foot traffic. I, my parents, and grandparents walked the Bridge that day. [Link: www.latimes.com...]

Guess you aren't worried about dating yourself ;)

103 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:18:31pm

Inside baseball...

104 Stanghazi  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:19:51pm

re: #98 Dark_Falcon

American Gothic is at the Art Institute, actually. The Field Museum is of 'Natural History', which also extends to depictions of present day cultures from other parts of the world.

I saw King Tut (part of it) there. Yah American Gothic at the AI. I was just happy to be there. So want to return.

105 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:19:56pm

re: #98 Dark_Falcon

American Gothic is at the Art Institute, actually. The Field Museum is of 'Natural History', which also extends to depictions of present day cultures from other parts of the world.

Field Museum is great but I always loved Science & Industry even more. Love the coal mine & exploring the U-505. Made an interesting comparison to the USS Cobia in Manitowoc.

106 Stanghazi  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:23:36pm

re: #100 Bear

OT
Just saw some pictures of the Golden Gate Bridge that first opened 75 years ago today. Especially interested to me is the picture of the first day the Bridge was opened to foot traffic. I, my parents, and grandparents walked the Bridge that day. [Link: www.latimes.com...]

You did? Wow!

107 prairiefire  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:25:15pm

re: #100 Bear

Yes, my great aunt Marjorie walked across it.

108 sunnygal  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:25:17pm

re: #32 dragonfire1981

If that bothers you, why do you go to that church? I know I would be attending elsewhere.

109 Bear  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:28:51pm

I did not walk the Bridge on its 50th as was no longer in SF. Any one know if the bridge was closed to traffic today for walkers?

110 Stanghazi  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:29:18pm

re: #100 Bear

re: #107 prairiefire

I was reading, not sure where, but the rowdy pro & con for the bridge in the papers. We know where those socialist historical dollars ended up!!!

111 prairiefire  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:31:58pm

It's a beautiful bridge. I've been across it once in a car and it made me a bit freaky deaky with my height phobia. Such an iconic look to it.

112 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:32:20pm

re: #105 William Barnett-Lewis

Field Museum is great but I always loved Science & Industry even more. Love the coal mine & exploring the U-505. Made an interesting comparison to the USS Cobia in Manitowoc.

Well, I do like the U-505 still, but I find myself more drawn to the Field, in part because the Field's special exhibits are a good bit easier to get into. The MS&I's special exhibits are sometimes sold out days in advance.

113 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:35:55pm

re: #104 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

I saw King Tut (part of it) there. Yah American Gothic at the AI. I was just happy to be there. So want to return.

I saw the recent King Tut, though that one is (it's still traveling) much smaller than the one in 1977. But I had not been born yet in the summer of 1977, though my mother was pregnant with what would turn out to be me at the time.

114 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:38:39pm

re: #113 Dark_Falcon

though my mother was pregnant with what would turn out to be me at the time.

LOL@turn of the phrase ;)

115 Stanghazi  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:39:35pm

re: #113 Dark_Falcon

I saw the recent King Tut, though that one is (it's still traveling) much smaller than the one in 1977. But I had not been born yet in the summer of 1977, though my mother was pregnant with what would turn out to be me at the time.

Haha, I was not at the 1977 one. Still had to learn Zep and independence!!

116 Bear  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:40:08pm

It was quite a thrill crossing under the Golden Gate Bridge coming back from Overseas on the troop ship. As the bow of the ship came under the bridge the cheers first started and as more of the ship cross under the cheering continued until we were past.

117 goddamnedfrank  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:43:17pm

re: #94 jamesfirecat

Honestly, is there anything inAfghanistan that makes it worth holding for that long?

Opium.

re: #96 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

Good point one one hand. On the other, if they had their own traditional translation, or new scripture, or whatever, that was against IRM in explicit terms, do you think they would be TE? Can Christian Identity have a TE academy?

I think that ship has sailed. Part of the problem is that to be that insular to the point of authenticity would required a community like the Druze to set up shop here, and they'd be too small to effectively create and market their own religious higher ed institutions. A new scripture whipped up to oppose IRM is going to face the same hurdle at this point, it's going to be treated like and viewed as a smallish cult.

118 freetoken  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:45:29pm

Standing ovation greets Pastor Charles Worley, who made anti-gay statements

Although gay rights and anti-hate groups responded with outrage when a North Carolina pastor called for gays and lesbians to be fenced in so they eventually die off, he was greeted with a standing ovation by his church members when he approached the pulpit, the Hickory Record reported.

“I appreciate all the support,” Pastor Charles Worley told the 100 or so congregants at Providence Road Baptist Church in Maiden, N.C. on Sunday, according to the Record. Several members stood and spoke out; others threw up their hands in support of their pastor.

[...]

A religious watchdog group has filed a complaint with the Internal Revenue Service, asking that it investigate the church’s tax-exempt status. Federal law prohibits non-profit groups from endorsing candidates.

[...]

119 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:46:33pm

re: #19 Cheechako

Don't complain. Last week, gas here in SE Alaska jumped up to $4.62/gal!! That last barge load of gas shipped up here must have been purchased at the very top of the market. Gas prices have been very tough on folks who want to go out and fish. And it's prime king salmon season.

$4.88 here in Canada, right next door to the oilsands.

120 Kragar  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:46:55pm

re: #118 freetoken

Standing ovation greets Pastor Charles Worley, who made anti-gay statements

Worley is a vile piece of excrement.

121 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:47:58pm

re: #114 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

LOL@turn of the phrase ;)

It was an elision intended to maintain clarity and avoid both confrontation and wisecracks. Confrontation being the potential link to the issue of abortion; i.e. If that was already me, then did I have the rights of a person 4 months before I was born? It's not an issue I wanted to go near, so I used a phrasing that avoided it. Likely an over-abundance of caution, but its what I thought best.

122 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:48:39pm

re: #121 Dark_Falcon

Eh, I liked it.

123 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:49:20pm

re: #120 Kragar

Worley is a vile piece of excrement.

I object, on the grounds that excrement has constructive uses!

124 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:49:53pm

re: #119 Ghost of Insanity

$4.88 here in Canada, right next door to the oilsands.

Funny that.

125 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:50:22pm

re: #19 Cheechako

Don't complain. Last week, gas here in SE Alaska jumped up to $4.62/gal!! That last barge load of gas shipped up here must have been purchased at the very top of the market.

Don't make silly explanations; it's all because of Obama's conspiracy to lose votes by raising gas prices secretly with Kenyan magic./

126 jaunte  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:50:39pm

re: #119 Ghost of Insanity

Cheaper next door to the refineries:
[Link: www.houstongasprices.com...]

127 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:50:54pm

BBL

128 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:52:55pm

re: #35 thedopefishlives

I watched the race on TV. I was slightly disappointed that they barely qualified 33 for the field. The 500 just isn't what it used to be, I'm afraid.

33 isn't that unusual. Open wheel races in NA aren't the same as NASCAR.

129 freetoken  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:53:41pm

Big Meanie:


Obama Has a Mean Streak and He Turned It on Romney This Week

[...]

But there was something darker and sharper lurking just below the surface, in Obama’s facial expressions, body language, and mocking tone of voice: Not to put too fine a point on it, but the president has a mean streak.

[...]

130 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:54:49pm

I hear the UN finally approved the resolution re: the latest Syrian massacre. Seems like the evidence was too clear even for the Putinistas, after they tried to stall the action. That said, a Russian official still said that it might have been a provocation that might have involved foreign intelligence agencies. (Don't be surprised; we've got truthers and AGW deniers spouting on our state channels, so it's just part of the whole.)

131 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:55:38pm

re: #130 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

I hear the UN finally approved of a resolution re: the latest Syrian massacre. Seems like the evidence was too clear even for the Putinistas, after they tried to stall the action. That said, a Russian official still said that it might have been a provocation that might have involved foreign intelligence agencies. (Don't be surprised; we've got truthers and AGW deniers spouting on our state channels, so it's just part of the whole.)

So we're really not all that different!

//

132 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:56:47pm

re: #131 Targetpractice

So we're really not all that different!

//

At least at this time your wingnuts are not in power, and even when they are, they know they can't stay there forever.

133 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:58:04pm

re: #130 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

I hear the UN finally approved the resolution re: the latest Syrian massacre. Seems like the evidence was too clear even for the Putinistas, after they tried to stall the action. That said, a Russian official still said that it might have been a provocation that might have involved foreign intelligence agencies. (Don't be surprised; we've got truthers and AGW deniers spouting on our state channels, so it's just part of the whole.)

Coming up next on RT. Obama the war monger.

//

134 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:58:13pm

re: #132 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

At least at this time your wingnuts are not in power, and even when they are, they know they can't stay there forever.

Not for lack of trying.

135 freetoken  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:58:40pm
136 freetoken  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:58:56pm

The Pill is the Devil's secret weapon.

137 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:59:23pm

re: #136 freetoken

The Pill is the Devil's secret weapon.

I thought that was fossils.

138 dragonfire1981  Sun, May 27, 2012 5:59:43pm

To those commenting on my post from earlier, the sermon I mentioned is probably the most politicized sermon I've heard at this Church and I have attended it for 4 years. The pastoral staff is usually quite good about leaving the politics separate from the preaching.

139 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:00:21pm

re: #138 dragonfire1981

OT: what Bible translation does your church use?

140 Kragar  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:00:32pm

Allowing Churches to be tax exempt offends my religious beliefs.

141 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:01:04pm

re: #135 freetoken

Consistent.

Or, consistently twisted?

Huckabee Likens Catholic Lawsuits Against HHS To Dr. King's "I Have A Dream" Speech

In related news, rumbling was noted at the site of Dr. King's grave.

//

142 dragonfire1981  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:01:17pm

re: #135 freetoken

Consistent.

Or, consistently twisted?

Huckabee Likens Catholic Lawsuits Against HHS To Dr. King's "I Have A Dream" Speech

Republicans have done just as good a job recreating the person of Dr. King as they have with Ronald Reagan.

143 freetoken  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:01:31pm

British abortion providers fear for safety in face of US-style protests

Doctors who help women end unwanted pregnancies are growing concerned for their own safety as anti-abortion groups step up protests outside clinics, a specialist in women’s health has warned.

Tony Falconer, president of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, described the American-style protests outside abortion clinics as distressing and humiliating for those preparing to have a termination.

[...]

Well, at least we're known internationally for something other than McDonald's and Coca Cola.

144 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:01:57pm

re: #142 dragonfire1981

Republicans have done just as good a job recreating the person of Dr. King as they have with Ronald Reagan.

You mean in that it has all the lifelike realism of a wax sculpture?

145 dragonfire1981  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:02:46pm

re: #139 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

OT: what Bible translation does your church use?

NIV. It's not one of those hardcore "King James or bust" churches.

147 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:04:00pm

re: #145 dragonfire1981

But not liberal enough to use NRSV? ;)

148 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:04:40pm

re: #146 Gus

George Will Savages Trump: He’s A ‘Bloviating Ignoramus’ With A ‘Very Low’ IQ

George Will describes himself and Donald Trump very well indeed!

149 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:05:31pm

re: #137 Gus

I thought that was fossils.

Who the hell you calling a fossil you old curmudgeon?

150 jaunte  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:05:55pm

re: #129 freetoken

Between Romney and Obama, there's definitely a facial expression gap.

151 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:06:09pm

re: #138 dragonfire1981

To those commenting on my post from earlier, the sermon I mentioned is probably the most politicized sermon I've heard at this Church and I have attended it for 4 years. The pastoral staff is usually quite good about leaving the politics separate from the preaching.

Change churches or become an atheist/agnostic.

152 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:06:21pm

re: #149 Ghost of Insanity

Who the hell you calling a fossil you old curmudgeon?

LGF's like an old-folks home for nerds and geeks.

153 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:07:27pm

re: #142 dragonfire1981

Republicans have done just as good a job recreating the person of Dr. King as they have with Ronald Reagan.

Emotional narrative to hoodwink the masses.

The right Right are the used car salesmen of politics.

154 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:13:36pm

re: #149 Ghost of Insanity

Who the hell you calling a fossil you old curmudgeon?

I feel like one right now.

155 prairiefire  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:13:42pm

re: #152 Targetpractice

LGF's like an old-folks home for nerds and geeks.

I've finally found my home.

156 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:15:45pm

re: #138 dragonfire1981

To those commenting on my post from earlier, the sermon I mentioned is probably the most politicized sermon I've heard at this Church and I have attended it for 4 years. The pastoral staff is usually quite good about leaving the politics separate from the preaching.

Do you go to church to listen to one man express his faith, or is it because it is a nice place to meditate on your own?

If the latter, why not go on Monday morning when no one else is there?

157 freetoken  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:17:29pm

re: #152 Targetpractice

LGF's like an old-folks home for nerds and geeks.

159 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:27:15pm

Has anyone else noticed how LGF activity has slowed this past year?

160 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:27:17pm

re: #138 dragonfire1981

To those commenting on my post from earlier, the sermon I mentioned is probably the most politicized sermon I've heard at this Church and I have attended it for 4 years. The pastoral staff is usually quite good about leaving the politics separate from the preaching.

Well, I'm not going to say you should do anything but it seems to me that if this is bothering you, it might be a hint to look at other congregations in your area. It's 5 1/2 months of sermons till the election - will they get better or worse the closer you get? You may not need a hyper liberal UU or Episcopalian church to be happy but there may be something else that the spirt is trying to point you at.

161 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:29:48pm

Tax all churches = deficit reduction.

162 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:31:37pm

Interesting development on SSM:

In this space earlier this month, I wrote about whether President Obama would face a backlash from African-Americans for his endorsement of same-sex marriage. (He hasn't.)

On Thursday, NPR's Eyder Peralta reported in the Two-Way blog that a Washington Post/ABC News poll found African-American support for same-sex marriage at 59 percent, compared with 41 percent before Obama's announcement.

More here:
[Link: www.npr.org...]

163 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:32:32pm

Ugh.

Struggling Waitress Gets a Real Tip: Call It a Gift

It was a good Easter weekend for Stacy Knutson, a waitress at the Fryn’ Pan restaurant in Moorhead, Minnesota.

Knutson was working a shift in November when a customer left a take out box on the table. Knutson tried to return the box to the customer but was told that she could keep it. When Knutson opened the box, she found bundles of money inside. Lots and lots of bundles. $12,000 worth of bundles.

So pay dirt, right?

Not so fast...

164 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:33:21pm

Everybody wants a cut. First the cops then the tax man. 12 thousand bucks for a poor waitress.

165 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:35:11pm

re: #164 Gus

Everybody wants a cut. First the cops then the tax man. 12 thousand bucks for a poor waitress.

It all worked out but I imagine her attorney needs to get payed.

166 William of Orange  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:35:58pm

Keep talking, everybody.

Without me though. It's 3:30 AM over here and I'm heading for the sack.

Good night everybody.

167 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:37:34pm

re: #161 Ghost of Insanity

Tax all churches = deficit reduction.

Just to prove Gus isn't the only one capable of talking to himself.

168 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:37:39pm

China is for sale.

[Link: www.forbes.com...]

That's going to get weird pretty fast.

169 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:38:59pm

re: #168 Obdicut

And to join in with the replying to myself: Looks like they're just saying that it will be, at some point, for sale.

170 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:39:03pm

I never talk to myself.

Shut up.

No! You shut up.

171 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:39:43pm

I've been informed by the fellow residing in my head that talking to yourself is okay, it's when you argue with yourself that you need professional help.

172 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:40:33pm

re: #171 Targetpractice

I've been informed by the fellow residing in my head that talking to yourself is okay, it's when you argue with yourself that you need professional help.

I talk to myself but it's OK since he speaks in Mandarin and I don't understand a word of it.

//

173 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:42:07pm

I'd talk to myself more frequently if the echos didn't give me a headache.

174 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:42:49pm

re: #172 Gus

Ah, because you only speak Cantonese.

175 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:43:39pm

re: #161 Ghost of Insanity

Tax all churches = deficit reduction.

Oh no. About that pesky separation thing?

What could possibly go wrong in a place where a government (state and national?!) has a big financial interest in religion and tithes?

176 jvic  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:46:33pm

re: #164 Gus

Everybody wants a cut. First the cops then the tax man. 12 thousand bucks for a poor waitress.

The cops tried to keep it all!

In neighboring Wisconsin: Under Asset Forfeiture Law, Wisconsin Cops Confiscate Families' Bail Money

177 ProGunLiberal  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:46:45pm

re: #169 Obdicut

Good to see it collapse. Maybe the Tibetans and Uyghurs will be able throw off the yoke. After that, I don't particularly care what happen. Let India, Southeast Asia, Central Asia, and Turkey (plus their allies) have their way China.

178 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:47:13pm

re: #175 Daniel Ballard

The separation thing is a good thing, but as it stands now, churches are violating it repeatedly. It's a problem. I'm loathe to take precipitous action, but I do think there should be more prosecution of church involvement in politics.

179 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:47:20pm

re: #175 Daniel Ballard

Oh no. About that pesky separation thing?

What could possibly go wrong in a place where a government (state and national?!) has a big financial interest in religion and tithes?

You mean like they do in tobacco and alcohol?

180 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:47:46pm

re: #177 ProGunLiberal

Yes, I know, you're really into group blame and don't care how many people starve along the way, and yes, that's still really stupid of you.

181 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:47:54pm

re: #176 jvic

The cops tried to keep it all!

In neighboring Wisconsin: Under Asset Forfeiture Law, Wisconsin Cops Confiscate Families' Bail Money

But it was drug money! It had drug residue on it! Derp. Do these dorks realize that a great deal of money has drug residue on it?

182 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:48:40pm

re: #177 ProGunLiberal

Good to see it collapse. Maybe the Tibetans and Uyghurs will be able throw off the yoke. After that, I don't particularly care what happen. Let India, Southeast Asia, Central Asia, and Turkey (plus their allies) have their way China.

How is China collapsing?

183 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:50:37pm

I'm sure glad the US collapsed like it did so Canada and Mexico could snag a bunch of cheap land to parcel out.

That is sarcasm.

184 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:50:59pm

re: #181 Gus

[Link: www.newschannel5.com...]

In this latest case, a Monterey police officer took $22,000 off the driver -- even though he had committed no crime.

...

He said that, while police are required to get a judge to sign off on a seizure within five days, state law says that hearing "shall be ex parte" -- meaning only the officer's side can be heard.

That's why George Reby was never told that there was a hearing on his case.

"It wouldn't have mattered because the judge would have said, 'This says it shall be ex parte. Sit down and shut up. I'm not to hear from you -- by statute," Miles added.

George Reby said that he told Monterey officers that "I had active bids on EBay, that I was trying to buy a vehicle. They just didn't want to hear it."

In fact, Reby had proof on his computer.

But the Monterey officer drew up a damning affidavit, citing his own training that "common people do not carry this much U.S. currency."
Read Officer Bates' affidavit

"On the street, a thousand-dollar bundle could approximately buy two ounces of cocaine," Bates told NewsChannel 5 Investigates.

"Or the money could have been used to buy a car," we observed.

"It's possible," he admitted.

NewsChannel 5 Investigates asked Bates if Reby had told him that he was trying to buy a car?

"He did," the officer acknowledged.

"But you did not include that in your report," we noted.

"If it's not in there, I didn't put it in there."

So why did he leave that out?

"I don't know," the officer said.

185 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:52:09pm

re: #184 Obdicut

[Link: www.newschannel5.com...]

...

Yeesh.

186 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:52:14pm

re: #179 Ghost of Insanity

Sure, about that powerful tobacco lobby?

187 jvic  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:52:22pm

re: #181 Gus

But it was drug money! It had drug residue on it! Derp. Do these dorks realize that a great deal of money has drug residue on it?

Not only do they realize it, but the corrupt ones count on it.

188 goddamnedfrank  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:53:48pm

re: #175 Daniel Ballard

What could possibly go wrong in a place where a government (state and national?!) has a big financial interest in religion and tithes?

Don't tease us like that. If you know then please elaborate.

189 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:54:21pm

re: #178 Obdicut

To the degree a little local Parish Pastor loses his 1st Amendment rights each election cycle as soon as he puts on the collar?

190 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:55:36pm

re: #130 I'm back in the USSR (sigh)

I hear the UN finally approved the resolution re: the latest Syrian massacre. Seems like the evidence was too clear even for the Putinistas, after they tried to stall the action. That said, a Russian official still said that it might have been a provocation that might have involved foreign intelligence agencies. (Don't be surprised; we've got truthers and AGW deniers spouting on our state channels, so it's just part of the whole.)

Translation for the uninitiated: "foreign intelligence agencies" = the CIA and Mossad

/do I get a cookie for that?

191 ProGunLiberal  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:56:20pm

re: #180 Obdicut

I care about the Tibetans and Uyghurs mostly. China will always survive in some form. On the other hand, the PRC has been trying to destroy the Tibetan and Uyghur cultures for at least 50 years. There must be consequences. Big ones.

What suggestions to you have? Because the PRC will never get better. That government must fall.

re: #182 Ghost of Insanity

The article stated how China is trying to privatize in order to try and keep their economy from contracting, which will create massive issues. It also stated that it won't work.

192 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:56:56pm

re: #188 goddamnedfrank

It's perhaps best said like this-Better remedies may be available than encroaching on that separation. I'm not unsympathetic to the problem. I just have equal or greater objection to certain remedies.

193 Stanghazi  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:56:59pm

re: #184 Obdicut

Wtf

194 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:59:10pm

re: #189 Daniel Ballard

To the degree a little local Parish Pastor loses his 1st Amendment rights each election cycle as soon as he puts on the collar?

Huh? The first amendment guarantees separation of church and state; that means that churches should respect that the state is secular and not governed by religious values.

195 jaunte  Sun, May 27, 2012 6:59:50pm

re: #184 Obdicut

Tenaha, Texas was running a similar scam:
Highway robbery? Texas police seize black motorists' cash, cars

196 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:00:10pm

re: #141 Targetpractice

In related news, rumbling was noted at the site of Dr. King's grave.

//

Hook a generator up to MLK's coffin and I'm sure that you could power a good chunk of Atlanta with the derp being spewed in that direction...

197 ProGunLiberal  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:00:58pm

re: #184 Obdicut

This sounds like Mexico, or some place like that. I think this might require the Feds do a bit of a looksee.

In the past year, I lost my trust in the police. Between all the incidents I have heard about.

re: #195 jaunte

Perhaps more Fed oversight of a Police Departments?

198 goddamnedfrank  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:01:12pm

re: #189 Daniel Ballard

To the degree a little local Parish Pastor loses his 1st Amendment rights each election cycle as soon as he puts on the collar?

I wasn't aware that one's First Amendment rights were predicated on having a tax free status. That's not the way it works for the rest of us, no matter how much I refrain from discussing politics I still have to pay income tax so I'm not sure how churches that decide to order off of their specially granted ala carte menu are being impacted in any undue way.

199 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:01:14pm

re: #194 Obdicut

Huh? The first amendment guarantees separation of church and state; that means that churches should respect that the state is secular and not governed by religious values.

The first amendment states that the state shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

200 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:01:28pm

re: #197 ProGunLiberal

No, asset seizure is used by the feds, too. It isn't just a state-level problem.

201 ProGunLiberal  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:02:24pm

re: #200 Obdicut

Well, what the hell is this? This seems to be a very blatant violation of the Constitution.

202 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:02:52pm

re: #198 goddamnedfrank

If a church will lose it's tax exemption as a result of a Pastor or Reverend discussing the election we have an issue.

203 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:03:34pm

re: #194 Obdicut

Huh? The first amendment guarantees separation of church and state; that means that churches should respect that the state is secular and not governed by religious values.

Is that a no?

204 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:03:36pm

re: #199 Mostly sane, most of the time.

The first amendment states that the state shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

Right. So we have a secular state, and no religion should be privileged over any other. That means no laws should be passed that are prompted by anyone's religion, because that'd be respecting an establishment of religion.

205 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:04:13pm

re: #201 ProGunLiberal

Well, what the hell is this? This seems to be a very blatant violation of the Constitution.

Look up asset seizure and research it. It's some really shady case history that's basically allowed because it's convenient.

206 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:05:28pm

re: #186 Daniel Ballard

Sure, about that powerful tobacco lobby?

I'm not sure what's going on in the US, but in Canada the number of people smoking has dropped significantly, in part due to government policies that have reduced tax income.

The idea that the government cannot, or will not, do what is best for society even if it results in revenue decreases is nonsense. The tobacco lobby has accomplished very little in efforts to stifle anti-tobacco regulations.

As far as I know, individual church members can support the politicians of their choice now, and are actively organizing in efforts to remove evolution or insert creationism into schools, defund women's health clinics, and outlaw SSM. They're already being political, so how will taxing them make it any worse?

207 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:05:42pm

re: #203 Daniel Ballard

Is that a no?

I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you think the current law is wrong or something?

Under the Internal Revenue Code, all section 501(c)(3) organizations are absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office. Contributions to political campaign funds or public statements of position (verbal or written) made on behalf of the organization in favor of or in opposition to any candidate for public office clearly violate the prohibition against political campaign activity. Violating this prohibition may result in denial or revocation of tax-exempt status and the imposition of certain excise taxes.

208 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:05:58pm

re: #204 Obdicut

And then we sometimes get an exclusive doctrine of public religious displays rather than an inclusive policy. No religion may display in a park for a holiday rather than any or all of them may.

209 Stanghazi  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:06:05pm

re: #202 Daniel Ballard

If a church will lose it's tax exemption as a result of a Pastor or Reverend discussing the election we have an issue.

Never gonna happen. For shame. Every Sunday they push the line.

210 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:06:24pm

re: #208 Daniel Ballard

And then we sometimes get an exclusive doctrine of public religious displays rather than an inclusive policy. No religion may display in a park for a holiday rather than any or all of them may.

Display what in a park for a holiday?

211 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:07:01pm

re: #204 Obdicut

Right. So we have a secular state, and no religion should be privileged over any other. That means no laws should be passed that are prompted by anyone's religion, because that'd be respecting an establishment of religion.

However, our laws are written by human beings, and their point of view, their entire way of thinking, will be influenced in part by their religion.

(And their education, and their life experiences, etc.)

There is, however, a difference between a legislator going to church on Sunday or Saturday, and that informing their values and they legislate, and a legislator receiving faxes from their pastor telling them what to do.

212 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:07:29pm

re: #207 Obdicut
I'm generally aware of the law.
Is my question unclear? It's yes or no.

213 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:07:32pm

你打算怎麼做現在格斯?

Oh shut up.

//

214 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:08:09pm

re: #197 ProGunLiberal

This sounds like Mexico, or some place like that. I think this might require the Feds do a bit of a looksee.

In the past year, I lost my trust in the police. Between all the incidents I have heard about.

re: #195 jaunte

Perhaps more Fed oversight of a Police Departments?

Always make sure you throw the baby out with the bath water.

215 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:08:17pm

Absurdism is silly

216 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:08:59pm

re: #198 goddamnedfrank

I wasn't aware that one's First Amendment rights were predicated on having a tax free status. That's not the way it works for the rest of us, no matter how much I refrain from discussing politics I still have to pay income tax so I'm not sure how churches that decide to order off of their specially granted ala carte menu are being impacted in any undue way.

Churches enjoy a privileged position.

217 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:09:30pm

This is from the Freedom from Religion website, in other words, from a website in favor of secular government;

In order to remain tax-exempt under 501(c)(3), churches must abide by strict guidelines that prohibit election activity. The Code states in relevant part that 501(c)(3) organizations cannot “participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.” I.R.C. Sec. 501(c)(3). Thus, as a 501(c)(3) organization, churches are strictly forbidden from supporting or opposing a candidate for public office. To do so jeopardizes their tax-exempt status. Churches cannot engage in any of the following activities under the federal tax law:

Cannot endorse or oppose candidates for public office
Cannot make any communication—either from the pulpit, in a newsletter, or church bulletin—which expressly advocates for the election or defeat of a candidate for public office
Cannot make expenditures on behalf of a candidate for public office or allow any of their resources to be used indirectly for political purposes (e.g., use their phones for a phone bank)
Cannot ask a candidate for public office to sign a pledge or other promise to support a particular issue
Cannot distribute partisan campaign literature
Cannot display political campaign signs on church property

Under current law, churches, as well as other 501(c)(3) organizations, may engage in nonpartisan campaign activities, primarily consisting of voter education. Thus, they may organize and coordinate nonpartisan get-out-the-vote and voter registration drives; sponsor nonpartisan candidate debates or forums, so long as all legally qualified candidates are invited to appear and wide spectrum of issues are covered; educate all candidates on issues of public interest; and create legislative scorecards or voter guides. All of these permissible activities must be done on a nonpartisan basis. A 501(c)(3) entity should not even tacitly express favor or disfavor of a particular candidate.

Link here:[Link: ffrf.org...]

218 Decatur Deb  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:09:52pm

Traveling for a week, so the erratic posts will be posted more erratically. 'Nite, all.

219 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:10:11pm

I feel like I'm at a senior center.

//

220 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:10:22pm

re: #211 Mostly sane, most of the time.

However, our laws are written by human beings, and their point of view, their entire way of thinking, will be influenced in part by their religion.

If you mean the set of ethics that coincides with the religion, sure. If you mean that lawmakers will inevitably craft laws based on their own spiritual beliefs, I disagree. I think that people can objectively separate their religious ideas from governance. I'm not saying that in most cases you're probably not right, but the ideal would be for them to not consider anything purely 'religious' in judging issues.

There is, however, a difference between a legislator going to church on Sunday or Saturday, and that informing their values and they legislate, and a legislator receiving faxes from their pastor telling them what to do.

Yes, definitely; this is the main issue; churches are forbidden with very good reason from directly involving themselves in politics. Churches benefit from the separation of church and state, benefit highly. Many churches appear to have forgotten that, and either tiptoeing right on the line of campaigning, or actively jumping across it.

221 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:10:23pm

re: #210 Obdicut

A cross, a nativity, star of david, the atomic icon atheists like... etc

222 goddamnedfrank  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:10:42pm

re: #202 Daniel Ballard

If a church will lose it's tax exemption as a result of a Pastor or Reverend discussing the election we have an issue.

By simple discussion no, by making specific endorsements, yes. That's the way the rules have always been written.

To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), and none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual. In addition, it may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates.

They knew this when they were granted tax exempt status, so I'm not sure why we have an issue except for the assertion. You're acting like this hasn't been established law for decades when you might instead be asking why many churches are only now deciding to act like political entities.

223 Stanghazi  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:10:53pm

re: #211 Mostly sane, most of the time.

However, our laws are written by human beings, and their point of view, their entire way of thinking, will be influenced in part by their religion.

(And their education, and their life experiences, etc.)

There is, however, a difference between a legislator going to church on Sunday or Saturday, and that informing their values and they legislate, and a legislator receiving faxes from their pastor telling them what to do.

How is this differ from a pastor telling his congregation how to vote?

224 goddamnedfrank  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:11:23pm

re: #210 Obdicut

Display what in a park for a holiday?

Their penis.

225 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:11:26pm

re: #212 Daniel Ballard

I'm generally aware of the law.
Is my question unclear? It's yes or no.

Yes, your question is unclear. Are you asking if someone loses their first amendment rights? You can't lose your first amendment rights. But there are limitations on free speech that are there in order to preserve separation of church and state, and that is that a church may not directly campaign or endorse.

Are you against that law?

226 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:11:40pm

re: #221 Daniel Ballard

A cross, a nativity, star of david, the atomic icon atheists like... etc

Why do you want to display whatever in a park?

227 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:12:43pm

re: #219 Gus

I feel like I'm at a senior center.

//

What? Can't hear you sonny, speak up, dammit!

228 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:13:08pm

re: #223 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

How is this differ from a pastor telling his congregation how to vote?

I separate a pastor telling his congregation that he feels Measure A is a good idea from telling them to vote for Candidate B.

He/She can lecture on general principles, ethics, morals, etc. all they want. It's a church.

229 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:13:14pm

re: #227 Ghost of Insanity

What? Can't hear you sonny, speak up, dammit!

It's hard to hear over the Mandarin voices.

230 Interesting Times  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:13:27pm
231 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:14:19pm

re: #226 Obdicut

Why do you want to display whatever in a park?

Buy the house next to the park and use your front lawn.

232 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:15:10pm

re: #209 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Never gonna happen. For shame. Every Sunday they push the line.

How would that work? Any political discussion at the church would result in taxation forever more? Or just on tithes received on days religion are discussed?

A Pastor at the pulpit says "I think Obama is an honest man and deserves re-election" and the church should lose the tax exemption?

My point is what a mess that is.

233 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:17:48pm

re: #232 Daniel Ballard

A Pastor at the pulpit says "I think Obama is an honest man and deserves re-election" and the church should lose the tax exemption?

Yes. That is the current state of the law. Are you really against this?

234 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:17:52pm

That Twitter squabble has me cross-eyed.

235 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:18:09pm

re: #228 Mostly sane, most of the time.

I separate a pastor telling his congregation that he feels Measure A is a good idea from telling them to vote for Candidate B.

He/She can lecture on general principles, ethics, morals, etc. all they want. It's a church.

That isn't the same as vilifying or promoting a particular political agenda, which has been done. Creationists get around the problem by not presenting themselves as a specific church, but they come from the same ideology and money base.

236 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:18:15pm

re: #225 Obdicut

A pastor has his rights like you and I. If his speech is restricted at the pulpit with the threat of taxation we have diminished that right. If a Catholic priest speaks out for immigrant rights, does his church than lose the exemption? I would say not.

I don't see how that can be enforced objectively or fairly.

237 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:19:56pm

re: #233 Obdicut

Hey the current state of the law has allowed some cops to play fast and loose with seizure. SYG in public is the current state of the law is some states. It's not a big deal to object to the state of the law.

238 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:20:10pm

re: #236 Daniel Ballard

If he speaks out about an issue, that's fine. If he endorses a candidate or party, it's not.

I really am interested in whether you're saying you're against even the current law. You want churches to be able to actively campaign for politicians, endorse them, endorse parties, etc?

239 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:20:13pm

re: #234 Gus

That Twitter squabble has me cross-eyed.

Keep reading and your eyes will eventually rotate all the way around.

240 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:20:40pm

re: #237 Daniel Ballard

Hey the current state of the law has allowed some cops to play fast and loose with seizure. It's not a big deal to object to the state of the law.

Then please state clearly if you are, in fact, objecting to it, and think that churches should be allowed to campaign.

If so, I'd ask if you'd thought of the consequences of that position.

241 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:21:22pm

re: #240 Obdicut

I refer you to the last line in my 236.

242 Kragar  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:21:32pm

re: #238 Obdicut

If he speaks out about an issue, that's fine. If he endorses a candidate or party, it's not.

I really am interested in whether you're saying you're against even the current law. You want churches to be able to actively campaign for politicians, endorse them, endorse parties, etc?

Nothing separates Church and State like saying you'll burn in hell if you don't vote for the right person.

243 goddamnedfrank  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:22:11pm

re: #232 Daniel Ballard

How would that work? Any political discussion at the church would result in taxation forever more? Or just on tithes received on days religion are discussed?

A Pastor at the pulpit says "I think Obama is an honest man and deserves re-election" and the church should lose the tax exemption?

My point is what a mess that is.

It's the law. It's old law. It's unambiguous, even handed and intelligently designed to disincentivize theocracy and reward separation of church and state. If churches want to act like political orgs then all they have to do is pay taxes, which realistically isn't at all an onerous a burden to ask of any entity, religious or otherwise, seeking to overtly influence elections in a secular democracy.

244 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:22:21pm

Couldn't a pastor use his free speech to endorse a candidate somewhere other than his pulpit?

As long as it wasn't an official church function, I believe he would be fine.

245 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:22:26pm

re: #241 Daniel Ballard

I refer you to the last line in my 236.

That's really not a direct statement. Can you please answer the question: Are you in favor of letting churches-- non-profit entities that are untaxed, donations to which are tax-deductible-- campaign directly?

246 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:22:56pm

re: #239 Ghost of Insanity

Keep reading and your eyes will eventually rotate all the way around.

It's all your fault you heathen.

//

247 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:23:37pm

re: #236 Daniel Ballard

A pastor has his rights like you and I. If his speech is restricted at the pulpit with the threat of taxation we have diminished that right. If a Catholic priest speaks out for immigrant rights, does his church than lose the exemption? I would say not.

I don't see how that can be enforced objectively or fairly.

Is the pastor speaking for himself or as a spokesperson for an organized church? A spokesperson for any other organization will be taxed, as will the organization without any reduction in individual rights.

You are conflating a pastor operating as an individual with a pastor representing an organization.

248 Digital Display  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:24:38pm

re: #231 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Buy the house next to the park and use your front lawn.

Parks are great for just about anything if you don't allow politics and religion..
It was cool back in the day in Napa when artists on a Sunday would display paintings to buy or there would be an area with Medieval fighters or a farmers market or free local bands.. It is a way to bring the community together...Something politics and religion is sorely lacking of

249 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:26:52pm

re: #248 HoosierHoops

Parks are great for just about anything if you don't allow politics and religion..
It was cool back in the day in Napa when artists on a Sunday would display paintings to buy or there would be an area with Medieval fighters or a farmers market or free local bands.. It is a way to bring the community together...Something politics and religion is sorely lacking of

re: #248 HoosierHoops

Parks are great for just about anything if you don't allow politics and religion..
It was cool back in the day in Napa when artists on a Sunday would display paintings to buy or there would be an area with Medieval fighters or a farmers market or free local bands.. It is a way to bring the community together...Something politics and religion is sorely lacking of

I've never put a display of anything in front yard, other than an occasional bake sale during the neighborhood garage sale.

(I was teaching the kids capitalism.)

250 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:28:21pm

re: #249 Mostly sane, most of the time.

re: #248 HoosierHoops

I've never put a display of anything in front yard, other than an occasional bake sale during the neighborhood garage sale.

(I was teaching the kids capitalism.)

Oh NOES a capitalist!!1!!

251 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:28:50pm

re: #247 Ghost of Insanity

You are conflating a pastor operating as an individual with a pastor representing an organization.

Maybe at home out of uniform it's clearly personal.

I don't see how you properly separate personal from official at the pulpit. Or on church grounds. In all those hundreds of thousands of instances at all those places of worship. As I said it's a mess. What of a Jewish temple and international politics. They then lose the exemption?

252 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:30:04pm

re: #250 Ghost of Insanity

Oh NOES a capitalist!!1!!

Come over to the dark side. We have cookies.

Actually, it was brownies and strawberry lemonade.

253 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:34:42pm

re: #236 Daniel Ballard

A pastor has his rights like you and I. If his speech is restricted at the pulpit with the threat of taxation we have diminished that right.

No, because, in their official capacity in whatever church they serve, pastors/preachers/priests/etc. represent that very church to their members and to the public. Outside of that, as a private person, they can do what ever they want, AFAIK, so long as they don't trade on that appeal to authority.

If a Catholic priest speaks out for immigrant rights, does his church than lose the exemption? I would say not.

That example is a non-starter anyway, because the IRS rules specifically exclude campaigning on issues (as opposed to candidates) as a reason to revoke 501c3 status; a church can preach immigrant rights all the want, but when they specifically endorse a candidate, that's where the issues start.

I don't see how that can be enforced objectively or fairly.

Sure it can, because the basic rules for 501c3s in regards to political advocacy seem fairly simple to follow to me.

254 Digital Display  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:36:00pm

re: #249 Mostly sane, most of the time.

re: #248 HoosierHoops

I've never put a display of anything in front yard, other than an occasional bake sale during the neighborhood garage sale.

(I was teaching the kids capitalism.)

One year for Christmas I put up a bunch of those wire frame reindeers out in the front yard with all the lights and stuff..Looked really cool. After our Xmas party when people were leaving they arranged all the Deer doing the wild thing in the yard...I didn't notice anything till I got a phone call the next afternoon..

255 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:37:26pm

re: #254 HoosierHoops

One year for Christmas I put up a bunch of those wire frame reindeers out in the front yard with all the lights and stuff..Looked really cool. After our Xmas party when people were leaving they arranged all the Deer doing the wild thing in the yard...I didn't notice anything till I got a phone the next afternoon..

My kids were watching a turtle documentary this morning. The turtle found a friend.

The kids were commenting on how the one turtle was giving the other a piggy-back ride. I said nothing, and I didn't crack up, either.

At least, not in front of them.

256 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:39:21pm

re: #253 Gitarzan

Are you well satisfied with how the enforcement is going this cycle?
I'm not.

257 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:39:33pm

re: #251 Daniel Ballard

Maybe at home out of uniform it's clearly personal.

I don't see how you properly separate personal from official at the pulpit. Or on church grounds. In all those hundreds of thousands of instances at all those places of worship. As I said it's a mess. What of a Jewish temple and international politics. They then lose the exemption?

Many things are messy, but we still make decisions on how to deal with them. Taxing the church building and grounds, as other commercial buildings are taxed isn't going to change the influence churches have on governments. What it may do is make their activity more transparent.

258 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:44:37pm

This looks to be a very successful Seinfeld thread.

259 goddamnedfrank  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:46:26pm

re: #251 Daniel Ballard

Maybe at home out of uniform it's clearly personal.

I don't see how you properly separate personal from official at the pulpit. Or on church grounds.

That's official, the fact that a pastor might want to personally say something that's officially prohibited means he's officially subjecting the church to taxation. If he's paid by the church then he's got a fiduciary duty to his employer to protect their status.

In all those hundreds of thousands of instances at all those places of worship. As I said it's a mess. What of a Jewish temple and international politics. They then lose the exemption?

Again, "it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates." That's an incredibly narrow prohibition no matter how much you try to expand on it. The only things they can't do is endorse or oppose legislation or candidates.

260 Kragar  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:47:10pm

re: #255 Mostly sane, most of the time.

My kids were watching a turtle documentary this morning. The turtle found a friend.

The kids were commenting on how the one turtle was giving the other a piggy-back ride. I said nothing, and I didn't crack up, either.

At least, not in front of them.

261 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:47:28pm

re: #254 HoosierHoops

One year for Christmas I put up a bunch of those wire frame reindeers out in the front yard with all the lights and stuff..Looked really cool. After our Xmas party when people were leaving they arranged all the Deer doing the wild thing in the yard...I didn't notice anything till I got a phone call the next afternoon..

I wanted to set up a couple up on the lawn and then light up a couple of bullseyes on them. The boss was, as they say, unamused.

262 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:50:00pm

re: #259 goddamnedfrank And Obdicut-

If we look way up thread at what I first objected to (161)... Do we see that specific law implied or a comment that suggested churches lose the exemption across the board? Please take my comments as in regard to that sweeping comment not the far less reaching statute you cite. I think the goalposts drifted a bit in the course of this chat. ;-)

263 goddamnedfrank  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:51:46pm

Everyone edits their speech and moderates their behavior at work. I'm not allowed to walk into a client's facilities and subject their business to unwanted liabilities due to my inappropriate opinions, no matter how hilarious or heartfelt those opinions are.

264 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:52:33pm

re: #261 William Barnett-Lewis

Maybe some smart ass will make white wire frame deer hunters.... To display when the season opens.

265 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:53:46pm

re: #262 Daniel Ballard

That's why I repeatedly asked you if you're against the current law. You didn't answer that direct question. You certainly seem to have been arguing against the current law.

Are you, or are you not, against the current law as it relates to forbidding campaigning on the part of churches?

266 Interesting Times  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:56:36pm

re: #261 William Barnett-Lewis

I wanted to set up a couple up on the lawn and then light up a couple of bullseyes on them. The boss was, as they say, unamused.

Hey, speaking of deer-hunting, there's now a PAC meant to stop big-buck bigot-enabling blot Scott Walker's plan to end it in Wisconsin:

[Link: savewideerhunting.info...]

Walker appointee says Hunting on Public Lands is Communism

Doesn't that headline sound stupid? Deer hunting is a Wisconsin tradition (one that adds more than a billion dollars a year to the state economy), and many people here rely on hunting to feed our families. 638,000 people hunt on Wisconsin public lands every year. But Dr. James Kroll, the new "deer czar" appointed by Gov. Walker, wants to make deer herds the property of wealthy landowners rather than a public resource. That will make hunting a privilege of the wealthy.

267 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 27, 2012 7:58:01pm

re: #265 Obdicut

I have a big objection to taxing all the churches, and I have am less than favorably impressed with how the statute you cite is enforced. I did not answer as I did not want to help move the goalpost so to speak. That answer is beside my original point.

268 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:00:08pm

re: #263 goddamnedfrank

And many of us are stuck with a boss or supervisor that promotes politics at the job. Like union endorsements. Work=Endorsing candidates is fine, resist and put your career in peril. At church-Forbidden for tax reasons. Quite a tableau there.

269 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:05:30pm

re: #267 Daniel Ballard

I have a big objection to taxing all the churches, and I have am less than favorably impressed with how the statute you cite is enforced. I did not answer as I did not want to help move the goalpost so to speak. That answer is beside my original point.

I have no clue what you're talking about with goalposts. I'm asking a straightforward question about the current law, and asking you to think about the consequences of allowing churches to be both untaxed and politically active. Are you wiling to think about the problems at all, or answer the question, or was there some agenda that got set while I wasn't looking that I'm not following?

270 Interesting Times  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:06:16pm

Ha:

271 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:06:17pm

re: #268 Daniel Ballard

And many of us are stuck with a boss or supervisor that promotes politics at the job. Like union endorsements. Work=Endorsing candidates is fine, resist and put your career in peril. At church-Forbidden for tax reasons. Quite a tableau there.

That sounds like a good argument for taxing churches.

272 ProGunLiberal  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:07:24pm

re: #266 Interesting Times

It's like they want to return us to the Feudal Era.

273 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:09:31pm

re: #269 Obdicut

I responded to a particular sweeping comment. "Tax all the churches". That goal post location A. Location B would be the far more specific law you cited. The enforcement of which leaves me unimpressed.

274 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:11:02pm

re: #273 Daniel Ballard

I responded to a particular sweeping comment. "Tax all the churches". That goal post location A. Location B would be the far more specific law you cited. The enforcement of which leaves me unimpressed.

Yes, I get that. But why does that render you incapable of saying whether or not you support the current law, or think that churches, tax-exempt organizations, should be able to directly politically campaign?

275 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:11:11pm

re: #271 Ghost of Insanity

That sounds like a good argument for taxing churches.

Or fining an employer for forcing political views on employees as in endorsing certain candidates or a particular side of a union argument.

276 Daniel Ballard  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:13:09pm

re: #274 Obdicut

Yes, I get that. But why does that render you incapable of saying whether or not you support the current law, or think that churches, tax-exempt organizations, should be able to directly politically campaign?

Please do not confuse incapable with a reluctance to broaden a discussion well beyond the point I choose to make. Or choose not to.

277 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:14:29pm

re: #275 Daniel Ballard

Or fining an employer for forcing political views on employees as in endorsing certain candidates or a particular side of a union argument.

The employer may be able to force attendance at political presentations, but not a vote in a voting booth.

278 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:14:35pm

re: #268 Daniel Ballard

And many of us are stuck with a boss or supervisor that promotes politics at the job. Like union endorsements. Work=Endorsing candidates is fine, resist and put your career in peril. At church-Forbidden for tax reasons. Quite a tableau there.

Company = pays taxes
Church = escapes taxes

Says enough right there to me.

279 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:14:47pm

re: #274 Obdicut

Yes, I get that. But why does that render you incapable of saying whether or not you support the current law, or think that churches, tax-exempt organizations, should be able to directly politically campaign?

Because tax exemptions do not negate the right to free speech.

280 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:16:18pm

re: #276 Daniel Ballard

Please do not confuse incapable with a reluctance to broaden a discussion well beyond the point I choose to make. Or choose not to.

Okay, you're just refusing to answer an obviously pertinent question, and it's really weird. Can you explain why you don't want to answer it?

281 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:16:48pm

re: #279 Killgore Trout

Because tax exemptions do not negate the right to free speech.

They do, in terms of our legal code, negate the right to endorse or directly campaign for candidates.

Are you against that law?

282 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:20:16pm

re: #279 Killgore Trout

Because tax exemptions do not negate the right to free speech.

And paying taxes for the privilege of free speech is not a penalty.

Exemption from paying tax is a privileged position that comes with the condition of preserving a separation between religious beliefs and the creation of laws. If there is an attempt to circumvent that condition, then the privilege is removed.

283 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:26:04pm

re: #282 Ghost of Insanity

And paying taxes for the privilege of free speech is not a penalty.

Exemption from paying tax is a privileged position that comes with the condition of preserving a separation between religious beliefs and the creation of laws. If there is an attempt to circumvent that condition, then the privilege is removed.

I say tax the fuckers, But they have the same rights with or without the tax exemptions. If dickhead atheists would stop with the shit about removing crosses from war memorials and historical monuments we might get a better chance at removing the tax loopholes for snake oil salesmen.

284 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:28:43pm

re: #283 Killgore Trout

Or, conversely, it's harder to get rid of religious political influence when you allow it into the public space at all.

The problem rather clearly isn't the atheists, it's the very large number of people who don't believe in separation of church and state, and who work to weaken it. That would be the GOP in general, and often in specific; much of Romney's recent conversation about education seems like a large head-nod towards breaking down separation of church and state even further.

Blaming the atheists is obviously silly.

285 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:29:07pm

Benny Hinn is rich motherfucker who doesn't pay taxes because secularists can't get their heads out of their asses.

286 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:32:26pm

re: #285 Killgore Trout

Benny Hinn I s rich motherfucker who doesn't pay taxes because secularists can't get their heads out of their asses.

And because we have an entire political party, the GOP, which has many members which openly campaign on weakening the separation of church and state, we have religious organizations campaigning in all but name and sometimes more than that, etc.

Can you explain your logic that allowing more religious representation in the public space would make it easier to tax churches? I'm intrigued by this novel line of reasoning.

287 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:32:43pm

re: #285 Killgore Trout

Benny Hinn is rich motherfucker who doesn't pay taxes because secularists can't get their heads out of their asses.

Yeah. That makes sense.

//

288 freetoken  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:33:41pm

re: #278 William Barnett-Lewis

Company = pays taxes
Church = escapes taxes

Says enough right there to me.

Yeah, but you know, Corporations are people, and Churches are, well....

289 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:35:29pm

re: #288 freetoken

Yeah, but you know, Corporations are people, and Churches are, well...

Damn it, I had cheap whiskey in my mouth just then. That shit really burns going out the nose!

///

Well, only half. It's not the good stuff thankfully

290 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:37:03pm

re: #287 Gus

Yeah. That makes sense.

//

It should. Instead of focusing on taking rights away from churches we should support their right to free speech and make them pay taxes like everybody else. The key is to focus on positive rights instead of negative rights. Focusing on taking rights away from religious organizations only delays the inevitable progress of taxing them and making them pay their fair share.

291 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:38:07pm
292 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:38:15pm

re: #191 ProGunLiberal

The thing is, PLL, that if a government with hundreds of nuclear weapons falls, some of those nukes can fall into the hand of people who would use them on us.

Moreover, China is such a large economy now that the fall of the PRC would likely trigger a global depression.

293 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:39:32pm

re: #285 Killgore Trout

Benny Hinn is rich motherfucker who doesn't pay taxes because secularists can't get their heads out of their asses.

Hinn is a rich MoFu because religion is viewed as special and privileged.

294 sagehen  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:40:38pm

re: #236 Daniel Ballard

A pastor has his rights like you and I. If his speech is restricted at the pulpit with the threat of taxation we have diminished that right. If a Catholic priest speaks out for immigrant rights, does his church than lose the exemption? I would say not.

I don't see how that can be enforced objectively or fairly.

Tax exemption is a special privilege.

Everybody has the same rights; not everybody has the same privileges. Some privileges are limited to those who are willing to not exercise certain rights.

295 Obdicut  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:40:55pm

re: #290 Killgore Trout

It should. Instead of focusing on taking rights away from churches we should support their right to free speech and make them pay taxes like everybody else.x

That's taking away their right to be a tax-exempt organization, of course.

The key is to focus on positive rights instead of negative rights.

Is this more performance art on your place? Declare yourself a classical liberal and then say something that's the exact opposite of classical liberalism?

296 freetoken  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:41:30pm

Changing the Constitution, so as to allow religious organizations to be treated like any other freely assembled corporation of people, is unlikely, IMO.

It is too embedded in our culture that religious organizations are special.

297 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:42:48pm

re: #266 Interesting Times

Hey, speaking of deer-hunting, there's now a PAC meant to stop big-buck bigot-enabling blot Scott Walker's plan to end it in Wisconsin:

[Link: savewideerhunting.info...]

Doesn't sound wise. One would think that groups like the NRA would be unfond of this sort of plan. I know I'm not fond of it, as I do not see game management as "the last bastion of communism".

298 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:43:43pm

re: #290 Killgore Trout

It should. Instead of focusing on taking rights away from churches we should support their right to free speech and make them pay taxes like everybody else. The key is to focus on positive rights instead of negative rights. Focusing on taking rights away from religious organizations only delays the inevitable progress of taxing them and making them pay their fair share.

Atheists aren't trying to take rights away from churches, they're asking that current laws be enforced.

299 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:45:34pm

I've said before that as a church going christian believer, I think that tax exemption should go away. I do see serious problems though. Lots of churches are, economically, barely able to survive now. My church, has been on the capital square in Madison since 1850, would be dead, over night, if it had to pay taxes. We barely survive now. The only homeless men's shelter in the city would close too. All the other things we do would vanish. So too, alas, would the Tiffany stained glass window... :(

It would be a good thing, overall, but it should have been done from the beginning. Since it was not, how do we make it happen now without destroying much that the city, state & federal governments would have to pick up?

We aren't a small church but we aren't some suburban mega-church either. Yet, those - with their "prosperity" gospel lies & other bull crap - those are the churches that would survive if we unilaterally shifted to taxing churches tomorrow.

As the old saying puts it:

Be careful what you wish for. You might get it.

300 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:45:55pm

re: #290 Killgore Trout

It should. Instead of focusing on taking rights away from churches we should support their right to free speech and make them pay taxes like everybody else. The key is to focus on positive rights instead of negative rights. Focusing on taking rights away from religious organizations only delays the inevitable progress of taxing them and making them pay their fair share.

For one, it's not just "secularists" that object to the like of the Hinn family reaping massive profits as they have been for several decades now. It includes many religious people that oppose this. Secondly, and this is something that I often repeated with other groups, there isn't a "Secular Borg Collective" that gets their marching orders from "headquarters."

301 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:47:07pm

re: #295 Obdicut

That's taking away their right to be a tax-exempt organization, of course.

Is this more performance art on your place? Declare yourself a classical liberal and then say something that's the exact opposite of classical liberalism?

Bolded For Truth. Killgore, please remember how deeply problematic the idea of "positive rights" can be. Such rights cannot be equated to negative rights as "the right to get something from someone else" is by definition alienable, as it is of no use if the other person or organization cannot supply you with that something.

302 b_Snark  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:47:12pm

re: #300 Gus

For one, it's not just "secularists" that object to the like of the Hinn family reaping massive profits as they have been for several decades now. It includes many religious people that oppose this. Secondly, and this is something that I often repeated with other groups, there isn't a "Secular Borg Collective" that gets their marching orders from "headquarters."

You will be assimilated, you cannot resist.

303 Interesting Times  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:47:58pm

re: #297 Dark_Falcon

Doesn't sound wise. One would think that groups like the NRA would be unfond of this sort of plan.

They're too busy claiming that Obama letting everyone keep their guns is proof he wants to take them away.

304 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:51:03pm

re: #297 Dark_Falcon

Doesn't sound wise. One would think that groups like the NRA would be unfond of this sort of plan. I know I'm not fond of it, as I do not see game management as "the last bastion of communism".

DF, the NRA is fond of anything that makes them money. Texas style hunting is just fine because, after all, rich folk have more money to give to "protect" their rights to hunt and shoot. And goodness knows you can't trust poor folk with pistols & rifles - why they might rise up in revolution!

305 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:52:34pm

re: #302 Ghost of Insanity

You will be assimilated, you cannot resist.

Most of the time I just laugh. That nutcase "kill the gays" pastor in North Carolina is part of a tax exempt church. Heck. Might as well make the KKK and the Nazi party tax free. But it's not just churches. There's that other ball of wax called "non-profits" amd whatever combination you can think of. Heartland being one. Sometimes they're the conglomerations of "church and security consultant." What are you gonna do though. This won't change for another 100 years.

306 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:54:03pm

re: #285 Killgore Trout

Benny Hinn is rich motherfucker who doesn't pay taxes because secularists can't get their heads out of their asses.

[Link: www.irs.gov...]

Pastors pay income tax.

307 sagehen  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:55:43pm

re: #290 Killgore Trout

It should. Instead of focusing on taking rights away from churches we should support their right to free speech and make them pay taxes like everybody else. The key is to focus on positive rights instead of negative rights. Focusing on taking rights away from religious organizations only delays the inevitable progress of taxing them and making them pay their fair share.

I have a problem with taxing churches as if they're businesses.

What would the property tax bill be for the Cathedral of St John the Divine? Or the cloisters? Or St Patrick's (takes up a whole block on 5th Avenue)? Where the hell would they get that kind of money? Do we really want to say that religions should operate like businesses?

We exempt them from certain worldly concerns (i.e., financial), in return for which they keep themselves separate from certain other worldly concerns (i.e. governance of people who don't share their sectarian beliefs).

308 Mich-again  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:57:48pm

re: #307 sagehen

I think the actual place of worship should be tax-exempt but not the TV studio, golf course, helicopter, satellite, etc..

309 Mich-again  Sun, May 27, 2012 8:59:19pm

re: #305 Gus

Most of the time I just laugh. That nutcase "kill the gays" pastor in North Carolina is part of a tax exempt church. Heck. Might as well make the KKK and the Nazi party tax free. But it's not just churches. There's that other ball of wax called "non-profits" amd whatever combination you can think of. Heartland being one. Sometimes they're the conglomerations of "church and security consultant." What are you gonna do though. This won't change for another 100 years.

What if we just blew up the whole 501(c)(3) tax exemption. A pox on both your houses..

310 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:00:49pm

re: #304 William Barnett-Lewis

DF, the NRA is fond of anything that makes them money. Texas style hunting is just fine because, after all, rich folk have more money to give to "protect" their rights to hunt and shoot. And goodness knows you can't trust poor folk with pistols & rifles - why they might rise up in revolution!

Yes, but middle-class people make up far more of the NRA's membership, and without members they'd lose the ability to inflict electoral consequences on politicians. They might not be wise to this issue yet, but when push comes to shove an issue like this would likely set the NRA against Randians like the "deer czar". But I must confess that some of this is me hoping for that confrontation, because the NRA is powerful enough to smack down the Randians, whose influence I want drastically curtailed.

311 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:03:36pm

Just finished an 8-hour drive to an undisclosed location in a 12-foot rented Penske truck packed to the limit. I is tired.

312 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:04:32pm

re: #311 Charles Johnson

Just finished an 8-hour drive to an undisclosed location in a 12-foot rented Penske truck packed to the limit. I is tired.

And were you going to tell the rest of us that the zombie apocalypse is nigh and we need to flee into the hills, or keep this information to yourself?

313 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:06:52pm

re: #311 Charles Johnson

Just finished an 8-hour drive to an undisclosed location in a 12-foot rented Penske truck packed to the limit. I is tired.

So what was Chuck driving in that truck? I'm guessing he was smuggling cocaine, and when he made the delivery they dealers paid him in Cheetos!!1

/Diary of Dorkus (The Stalkers are nothing if not predictable in attacking innocent posts like that, so I decided to put in an early dig at them.)

314 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:08:41pm

re: #311 Charles Johnson

Just finished an 8-hour drive to an undisclosed location in a 12-foot rented Penske truck packed to the limit. I is tired.

You have my sympathy. I've done so in the past and on June 14th will be doing it again. Though, presuming we can come up with the money, we are hiring a moving company. Even with that, I am not looking forward to that day...

315 Usually refered to as anyways  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:08:55pm

re: #311 Charles Johnson

Just finished an 8-hour drive to an undisclosed location in a 12-foot rented Penske truck packed to the limit. I is tired.

/ Bout time you got here, I've been holding shut the doors of the twitter gulag for 12hrs, I need my rest break.

316 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:08:59pm

re: #309 Mich-again

What if we just blew up the whole 501(c)(3) tax exemption. A pox on both your houses..

It all sounds good until you realize that your "Heartland" is also a 501(c)(3). The Sierra Club is one of them as are others.

317 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:09:03pm

re: #236 Daniel Ballard

A pastor has his rights like you and I. If his speech is restricted at the pulpit with the threat of taxation we have diminished that right. If a Catholic priest speaks out for immigrant rights, does his church than lose the exemption? I would say not.

I don't see how that can be enforced objectively or fairly.

It is not a threat of taxation, it is a threat of loss of freedom from taxation.

In other words, what we all pay for through taxation we pay more for, since churches don't pay for the same services. Mostly this is not federal taxation anyway, it is local taxation for roads, police, fire, administration and so on that they benefit from at the expense of everyone else.

There would be no need for churches to pay the equivalent of corporate income taxes if they operated as non profits, but paid for the services they receive mainly through property taxes.

318 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:10:56pm

re: #310 Dark_Falcon

One can hope and pray but given the depths of LaPierre's insanity in the past, you'll please pardon me if I won't hold my breath?

319 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:12:56pm

re: #318 William Barnett-Lewis

One can hope and pray but given the depths of LaPierre's insanity in the past, you'll please pardon me if I won't hold my breath?

I'll pardon you, but I base my conclusion upon a belief that the NRA can make the correct calculation of self-interest in this matter.

320 Mich-again  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:16:58pm

re: #311 Charles Johnson

Just finished an 8-hour drive to an undisclosed location in a 12-foot rented Penske truck packed to the limit. I is tired.

Lake Tahoe?

321 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:20:08pm

re: #319 Dark_Falcon

I'll pardon you, but I base my conclusion upon a belief that the NRA can make the correct calculation of self-interest in this matter.

I read that link, and don't understand what it means, except that they propose to raise the license fee, maybe.

322 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:21:10pm

re: #320 Mich-again

Lake Tahoe?

The destination needs to remain unknown to us. I'd rather not have the haters find someplace where they can harass Charles or any friends of his. He's a good man and he deserves to be able to live his off-line life in peace, but he needs a certain level of secrecy to be able to do that.

323 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:21:16pm

re: #311 Charles Johnson

Just finished an 8-hour drive to an undisclosed location in a 12-foot rented Penske truck packed to the limit. I is tired.

Wow. Did your comics take up that much space?

324 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:23:01pm

Quiet. Too quiet. Night.

325 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:23:32pm

re: #321 Flame Fin Tomini Tang

I read that link, and don't understand what it means, except that they propose to raise the license fee, maybe.

The person hired to manage Wisconsin's deer population floated the idea of selling off the state's public lands and explained that he does not like the idea of public lands generally. It would require a change in the law by the state legislature, though.

326 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:25:06pm

re: #325 Dark_Falcon

The person hired to manage Wisconsin's deer population floated the idea of selling off the state's public lands and explained that he does not like the idea of public lands generally. It would require a change in the law by the state legislature, though.

The idea that the game belongs to everyone is...it goes back to the pioneers and the colonials.

Only private landowners being able to fish or hunt is very un-American.

327 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:27:09pm

re: #325 Dark_Falcon

The person hired to manage Wisconsin's deer population floated the idea of selling off the state's public lands and explained that he does not like the idea of public lands generally. It would require a change in the law by the state legislature, though.

Yet another reason that the recall needs to succeed at least to the level of changing the balance in the state Senate. If we can at least stop Scooter's destruction there, then the social contact promoted by our constitutions will have been verified.

328 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:30:47pm

re: #327 William Barnett-Lewis

Yet another reason that the recall needs to succeed at least to the level of changing the balance in the state Senate. If we can at least stop Scooter's destruction there, then the social contact promoted by our constitutions will have been verified.

I don't think it needs to go that far, but that's me. I would say that the hunters who supported Gov. Walker need to fire the metaphorical "shot across the bow" on this matter. I do not support the privatization of forest preserves, I really don't. Government has a place in some matters, and saying so doesn't make you a RINO in Illinois nor Wisconsin.

329 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:36:59pm

I see the wingnuts are still freaking out about being unfairly sent to the Twitter Gulag:

Never seems to occur to them that their accounts might be getting suspended because they're acting like complete assholes, jumping uninvited into people's timelines, tweeting dumb, insulting, sexist and/or racist idiocies, and pissing people off.

It must be the evil liberals persecuting and oppressing them. It can't be their own fault, because God is on their side and that gives them license to be as crass and boorish as they want to be. And they really do enjoy being crass and boorish.

330 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:39:51pm

Check out the #TwitterGulag hashtag. Right wingers have been whining non-stop about this persecution fantasy for a solid month now.

331 Kragar  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:40:41pm

re: #329 Charles Johnson

I see the wingnuts are still freaking out about being unfairly sent to the Twitter Gulag:

[Embedded content] Never seems to occur to them that their accounts might be getting suspended because they're acting like complete assholes, jumping uninvited into people's timelines, tweeting dumb, insulting, sexist and/or racist idiocies, and pissing people off.

It must be the evil liberals persecuting and oppressing them. It can't be their own fault, because God is on their side and that gives them license to be as crass and boorish as they want to be. And they really do enjoy being crass and boorish.

LEAVE CONSERVATIVES ALONE! THEY ARE DELICATE FRAGILE SNOWFLAKES!!!

332 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:43:40pm

re: #329 Charles Johnson

I see the wingnuts are still freaking out about being unfairly sent to the Twitter Gulag:

[Embedded content] Never seems to occur to them that their accounts might be getting suspended because they're acting like complete assholes, jumping uninvited into people's timelines, tweeting dumb, insulting, sexist and/or racist idiocies, and pissing people off.

It must be the evil liberals persecuting and oppressing them. It can't be their own fault, because God is on their side and that gives them license to be as crass and boorish as they want to be. And they really do enjoy being crass and boorish.

How could an enemy of Obama use the nic of "BlueLantern02", when the Blue Lantern Corps' rings derive their power from Hope? Surely the President who claims to bring Hope would be a Blue Lantern Corp member.

/DC comics reference, expandable upon request.

333 Kragar  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:44:49pm

re: #332 Dark_Falcon

How could an enemy of Obama use the nic of "BlueLantern02", when the Blue Lantern Corps' rings derive their power from Hope? Surely the President who claims to bring Hope would be a Blue Lantern Corp member.

/Marvel comics reference, expandable upon request.

Nerd Fail.

The Lantern Corps are DC, not Marvel.

Turn in your Nerd card on the way out.

334 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:46:06pm

re: #330 Charles Johnson

Check out the #TwitterGulag hashtag. Right wingers have been whining non-stop about this persecution fantasy for a solid month now.

Help, Help, I'm being repressed!

335 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:46:29pm

Crashing out. Have a great evening lizards.

336 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:46:37pm

re: #333 Kragar

Nerd Fail.

The Lantern Corps are DC, not Marvel.

Turn in your Nerd card on the way out.

Saved by the pencil.

337 Kragar  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:48:22pm

re: #336 Dark_Falcon

Saved by the pencil.

The Shadow knows.

338 Interesting Times  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:48:52pm

re: #328 Dark_Falcon

I do not support the privatization of forest preserves, I really don't.

The Koch Brothers - the richest, nastiest Randians of them all - do. And they own your party. As long as you continue to prop up their preferred candidates, they'll happily spit upon any concerns or misgivings you have. Because you let them.

It really is that simple.

339 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:50:17pm
340 Gus  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:52:45pm

re: #339 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Scummy is a good word to describe Twitchy.

341 goddamnedfrank  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:52:55pm

re: #328 Dark_Falcon

I would say that the hunters who supported Gov. Walker need to fire the metaphorical "shot across the bow" on this matter. I do not support the privatization of forest preserves, I really don't.

At some point you're going to have to confront the fact that your party isn't just in the process of leaving you, it's long gone:

Despite Stearns’ idea for a national-park fire sale, the facts show that parks, monuments, and other protected places generate a steady stream of wealth for both the treasury and local businesses. In 2010, Florida’s Everglades National Park generated 2,364 jobs and over $140 million in visitor spending, and Florida’s 11 national parks in total provided $582 million in economic benefits. The National Park Service also reports that America’s parks overall created $31 billion and 258,000 jobs in 2010. In addition to their economic impacts, national parks have important value in that they are available to all of us for recreation, not just the wealthy few.

This is not the first time Republican members of Congress have advocated selling off Americans’ public lands without clarifying how taxpayers would get a fair return for them. Last fall, Rep. Jason Chaffetz (R-UT) proposed selling off 3.3 million acres of the public lands that belong to all of us. And former Rep. Richard Pombo proposed selling national parks to mining companies in 2005.

Republican presidential candidates have also recently been confused about the tangible and intangible values of our national parks and public lands. Mitt Romney told the Reno Gazette-Journal that he doesn’t know “what the purpose is” of public lands, Rick Santorum told Idahoans that public lands should go “back to the hands” of the private sector, and Ron Paul advocated for public lands to be turned over to the states.

342 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:53:53pm

re: #337 Kragar

The Shadow knows.

Eh, he relies on fear enough that he's a Yellow Lantern, like me*.


*: Given how much of my thought process is devoted to fear plus my concern with order, the natural corps leader for me to follow really would be Sinestro.

343 Interesting Times  Sun, May 27, 2012 9:57:56pm

re: #342 Dark_Falcon

*: Given how much of my thought process is devoted to fear

...which wouldn't even be so bad if you could only learn to fear the things that genuinely warrant fear.

344 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:02:58pm

re: #343 Interesting Times

...which wouldn't even be so bad if you could only learn to fear the things that genuinely warrant fear.

All people fear different things: We here all fear for those under threat in Syria, even if many are more concerned with the try-outs for "The X-Factor". But fear can be useful if it can be self-controlled and used by a person to drive themselves forward constructively, as I try to do.

345 Four More Tears  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:04:19pm

re: #342 Dark_Falcon

Eh, he relies on fear enough that he's a Yellow Lantern, like me*.

*: Given how much of my thought process is devoted to fear plus my concern with order, the natural corps leader for me to follow really would be Sinestro.

...

Well, I guess that's better than Atrocitus...

346 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:07:11pm

On this trip I've discovered that Apple changed the way "Back To My Mac" works in Lion, after it was already too late for me to set it up correctly. You have to set an option in iCloud now, on both computers.

Dang. Cannot remotely access my stuff, and we all know how painful that can be.

347 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:09:03pm

re: #345 It's a cookbook!

...

Well, I guess that's better than Atrocitus...

The Stalkers and haters like Dan Reihl are the Red Lanterns, driven feral by hate and rage.

Politician who I feel would be a Green Lantern, despite his flaws: John McCain, a man who came to know fear, who was for a short time broken by it, but who found the willpower to recover and keeping fighting the good fight.

348 ProGunLiberal  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:15:36pm

re: #343 Interesting Times

Reasonably safe to say I would be a Red Lantern, given my propensity to allow anger to take control, and an overly vengeance-based form of "justice"

349 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:17:51pm

re: #348 ProGunLiberal

Reasonably safe to say I would be a Red Lantern, given my propensity to allow anger to take control, and an overly vengeance-based form of "justice"

For now, you would be. But that can change, and indeed it must. Your mind is of too high a quality to be lost to rage, PLL. You must continue to increase your self-control.

350 Four More Tears  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:19:18pm

re: #347 Dark_Falcon

The Stalkers and haters like Dan Reihl are the Red Lanterns, driven feral by hate and rage.

Politician who I feel would be a Green Lantern, despite his flaws: John McCain, a man who came to know fear, who was for a short time broken by it, but who found the willpower to recover and keeping fighting the good fight.

Does that mean that the message of Hope and Change makes Obama a Blue Lantern?

:P

351 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:20:20pm

re: #350 It's a cookbook!

Does that mean that the message of Hope and Change makes Obama a Blue Lantern?

:P

I already said it would:

re: #332 Dark_Falcon

How could an enemy of Obama use the nic of "BlueLantern02", when the Blue Lantern Corps' rings derive their power from Hope? Surely the President who claims to bring Hope would be a Blue Lantern Corp member.

/DC comics reference, expandable upon request.

352 Four More Tears  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:21:40pm

re: #351 Dark_Falcon

I already said it would:

re: #332 Dark_Falcon

Oh. Didn't go that far back.

353 ProGunLiberal  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:25:02pm

re: #352 It's a cookbook!

Unfortunately, he is lacking the Green Element here, and is a little to willing to bend on domestic issues.

My mom and a few others have pointed out I am a Liberal mirror to Obama's thing in 2008 about "bitter people clinging to Religion and Guns." I tend to retreat to anger when I feel exasperated and hopeless.

354 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:25:11pm

re: #352 It's a cookbook!

Oh. Didn't go that far back.

No problem. This whole theme got started because some jerk that is being held up as "a prisoner of the Twitter Gulag" has the nic of "bluelantern02". I checked Wiki to refresh my memory of what emotion the Blue Lanterns embodied. When I found it was hope, the joke virtually wrote itself.

355 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:25:37pm

Wait, so does that make Romney an Orange Lantern?

356 Kragar  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:26:37pm

re: #347 Dark_Falcon

The Stalkers and haters like Dan Reihl are the Red Lanterns, driven feral by hate and rage.

Politician who I feel would be a Green Lantern, despite his flaws: John McCain, a man who came to know fear, who was for a short time broken by it, but who found the willpower to recover and keeping fighting the good fight.

They can create a new corps, the Brown Lanterns, driven by their overwhelming bullshit.

357 ProGunLiberal  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:27:31pm

re: #355 Targetpractice

Yes, I think it does.

358 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:27:36pm

re: #355 Targetpractice

Wait, so does that make Romney an Orange Lantern?

I'm not sure. He doesn't appear to be strongly emotional enough to wield any Power Ring.

I will say this: Any Salafist should be considered a Black Lantern, for they truly do embody death.

359 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:29:59pm

re: #356 Kragar

They can create a new corps, the Brown Lanterns, driven by their overwhelming bullshit.

Bullshitters aren't power ring users. They bullshit to cover their lack of inner strength, strength a power ring seeks out.

/getting a bit deep into the geekage here

360 ProGunLiberal  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:32:42pm

re: #358 Dark_Falcon

And, lo and behold, everyone fought against the Black Lanterns.

In any case, to me the Salafists belong to a group I like to think of as the Radical 5. Those are the BJP on the Hindus, the Hyper-Conservative factions of Christianity, the Salafis, the Vilayet-e-Fiqh forms of Shiism, and the Likudniks. And I think roughly the same of the PRC, which should explain my zeal against them.

What the hell are the White Lanterns anyway?

361 Four More Tears  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:33:44pm

re: #360 ProGunLiberal

And, lo and behold, everyone fought against the Black Lanterns.

In any case, to me the Salafists belong to a group I like to think of as the Radical 5. Those are the BJP on the Hindus, the Hyper-Conservative factions of Christianity, the Salafis, the Vilayet-e-Fiqh forms of Shiism, and the Likudniks. And I think roughly the same of the PRC, which should explain my zeal against them.

What the hell are the White Lanterns anyway?

Powered by life, just as Black Lanterns are by death.

362 Kragar  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:37:47pm

re: #361 It's a cookbook!

Powered by life, just as Black Lanterns are by death.

I'll stick with the Chaos Legions.

363 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:38:55pm

re: #360 ProGunLiberal

And, lo and behold, everyone fought against the Black Lanterns.

In any case, to me the Salafists belong to a group I like to think of as the Radical 5. Those are the BJP on the Hindus, the Hyper-Conservative factions of Christianity, the Salafis, the Vilayet-e-Fiqh forms of Shiism, and the Likudniks. And I think roughly the same of the PRC, which should explain my zeal against them.

What the hell are the White Lanterns anyway?

They embody life. Most of their white rings were issued in large part to bring heroes back from the dead. After Nekron's defeat, all its members save Swamp Thing were ultimately discharged from the corps.

364 Four More Tears  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:39:20pm

re: #363 Dark_Falcon

They embody life. Most of their white rings were issued in large part to bring heroes back from the dead. After Nekron's defeat, all its members save Swamp Thing were ultimately discharged from the corps.

Deadman.

365 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:40:53pm

re: #364 It's a cookbook!

Deadman.

I stand corrected.

366 Four More Tears  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:40:57pm

Hm. Huffpo seems to be experiencing technical difficulties. All of the stories except for the headline are giving me a funny 404.

367 freetoken  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:42:06pm

Apparently President Obama is a ... Red Lantern?


Letter: Obama's socialist bondage

[...]

President Obama doesn't really seem to care about the middle class, to which the writer referred. Apparently Obama wants everyone to be in the same low-income class, dependent on government control and redistribution schemes in the name of fairness and equality. Obama apparently envisions a social-democracy collective (socialist society) where individual freedom, opportunity and prosperity become relics of the past. Americans want freedom and prosperity for all, not plantation-style socialist bondage

"Plantation-style" socialism - that's a new one on me.

368 Kragar  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:42:52pm

re: #367 freetoken

Apparently President Obama is a ... Red Lantern?

Letter: Obama's socialist bondage

"Plantation-style" socialism - that's a new one on me.

Nope, Red Lanterns are based off of rage.

369 Four More Tears  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:44:08pm

re: #367 freetoken

Apparently President Obama is a ... Red Lantern?

Letter: Obama's socialist bondage

"Plantation-style" socialism - that's a new one on me.

I'm currently researching a theory that most of these kinds of articles are put together with a random word generator.

370 freetoken  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:44:36pm

re: #368 Kragar

Ok, so how about... Pink-o Lantern?

371 Four More Tears  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:44:56pm

re: #368 Kragar

Nope, Red Lanterns are based off of rage.

Wait... did that joke go over your head??

I am most disappointed in you.

372 Kragar  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:46:36pm

re: #371 It's a cookbook!

Wait... did that joke go over your head??

I am most disappointed in you.

Nope, I got it, comics are serious business.

373 Four More Tears  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:47:57pm

re: #372 Kragar

Nope, I got it, comics are serious business.

Oh they are. So serious that a lot of them cost $3.99 now and I, for one, will have none of that.

374 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:49:17pm

re: #371 It's a cookbook!

Wait... did that joke go over your head??

I am most disappointed in you.

Well, Dinish D'Souza wrote that he considered Obama to be driven by rage stemming from a "Kenyan Anti-Colonialist Worldview", and being driven by rage is part of what makes a Red Lantern. But all that 'theorem' really proved was that was that D'Souza is too dim to be any kind of Lantern.

375 Four More Tears  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:50:05pm

re: #374 Dark_Falcon

Well, Dinish D'Souza wrote that he considered Obama to be driven by rage stemming from a "Kenyan Anti-Colonialist Worldview", and being driven by rage is part of what makes a Red Lantern. But all that 'theorem' really proved was that was that D'Souza is too dim to be any kind of Lantern.

I see what you did there.

376 Kragar  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:51:08pm

re: #373 It's a cookbook!

Oh they are. So serious that a lot of them cost $3.99 now and I, for one, will have none of that.

Again, I choose to stick with the Chaos Legions.

377 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:58:00pm

re: #376 Kragar

Again, I choose to stick with the Chaos Legions.

And I'll stick with Battletech. Pewter and plastic miniatures are more durable than comic books, after all.

378 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 27, 2012 10:58:30pm

re: #375 It's a cookbook!

I see what you did there.

One good turn deserves another.

379 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 11:08:11pm

re: #376 Kragar

Again, I choose to stick with the Chaos Legions.

I'll stick with...with...crap, forgot Sheogorath doesn't have any legions.

380 Kragar  Sun, May 27, 2012 11:11:00pm

re: #379 Targetpractice

I'll stick with...with...crap, forgot Sheogorath doesn't have any legions.

I figure he's responsible for the Madboyz.

381 Four More Tears  Sun, May 27, 2012 11:11:21pm

re: #379 Targetpractice

I'll stick with...with...crap, forgot Sheogorath doesn't have any legions.

No, but he has a legion of personalities, no?

382 Targetpractice  Sun, May 27, 2012 11:13:33pm

re: #380 Kragar

I figure he's responsible for the Madboyz.

Would not surprise me in the least.


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