Pamela Geller’s Hangover Gets Worse

Anti-Muslim hate group leader’s wildly incoherent post achieves greatness
Wingnuts • Views: 26,347

Muslim-hating right wing ranter Pamela Geller is even more famous than usual tonight.

Dangerous Minds: Atlas Puked: Allegedly Drunk Conservative Blogger Posts Utter Insanity at 8am.

Pamela Geller, the rabidly Islamaphobic hate harpie whose face on cable news channels during the “Ground Zero mosque” controversy put people off their food all across America is back…

Little Green Football’s Charles Johnson has the scoop and a link to Pamela Geller’s latest crazypants rant before someone cleaned it up as the author apparently slept it off…

Wonkette: We Will Not Mock This Pamela Gellar Post Until a Doctor Assures Us She Did Not Have a Stroke.

Charles Johnson at LittleGreenFootballs has taken a break from twirling his mustaches and imprisoning free-speech martyrs in their Twitter Killing Fields in order to find this primary source evidence of Pamela Gellar, Empress of Wingnuttia, speaking in tongues and blooging at the very same time. We will just steal the whole thing, because we are sure he doesn’t mind.

Don’t let the giant block of crazy deter you from reading on and espying such eternal truths as “Walter Chronkite […] wa a red.” Gaze in wonder at the conseritave Id.

Jump to bottom

379 comments
1 Kragar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 5:51:26pm

She's so famous that she is infamous!

2 researchok  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 5:52:29pm

Train wreck in slow motion.

3 Mocking Jay  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 5:54:05pm

Stroke victims should sue Wonkette for defamation.

4 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 5:55:37pm

Meanwhile -- I am everywhere! My name is legion!

5 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 5:56:33pm

That's just a brutal posting to work through, but I simply haven't the heart to rip into it. She's just not worth the effort even though it exposes just how disjointed her thinking is. Just found out that another close friend of mine was diagnosed with cancer. Fuck.

6 Mocking Jay  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 5:56:38pm

re: #4 Charles Johnson

Meanwhile -- I am everywhere! My name is legion!

[Embedded content]

Charles Johnson is... Unanimous!

7 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 5:57:17pm

What the heck is wrong with that Geller? It's astounding how incoherent that post was.

8 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 5:57:38pm

I've become the all-purpose wingnut super-villain.

9 Kragar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 5:57:49pm

re: #4 Charles Johnson

Meanwhile -- I am everywhere! My name is legion!

[Embedded content]

Everyone knows that 3 out of 5 Twitter users is actually Charles Johnson.

Who didn't know that?

10 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 5:59:06pm

re: #8 Charles Johnson

I've become the all-purpose wingnut super-villain.

All that, AFTER you were the all-purpose other-side-nut villain.

You're just all-purpose everybody's villain.

11 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 5:59:36pm

re: #7 reine.de.tout

What the heck is wrong with that Geller? It's astounding how incoherent that post was.

Her literacy and her morality have regained equilibrium.

How are the cucumbers?

12 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 5:59:49pm

Wherever a wingnut feels like someone has outsmarted them, I am there.

Wherever a wingnut feels persecuted by a sekrit conspiracy, I am there.

I am everywhere.

13 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:00:01pm

re: #11 Decatur Deb

Her literacy and her morality have regained equilibrium.

How are the cucumbers?

Very strange, and getting stranger. Thank goodness that vine is almost kaput.

14 Kragar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:00:17pm

re: #8 Charles Johnson

I've become the all-purpose wingnut super-villain.

SEND THEM TO THE GULAG!

Youtube Video
15 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:00:32pm

re: #14 Kragar

SEND THEM TO THE GULAG!

[Embedded content]

Oh, hush, you'll start rumors.

16 Mocking Jay  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:00:34pm

re: #12 Charles Johnson

Wherever a wingnut feels like someone has outsmarted them, I am there.

Wherever a wingnut feels persecuted by a sekrit conspiracy, I am there.

I am everywhere.

And totally, absolutely irrelevant...

17 Mocking Jay  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:00:59pm

re: #15 reine.de.tout

Oh, hush, you'll start rumors.

O.o

Start?

Hey, learn to have fun with it.

18 wrenchwench  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:01:25pm

She posted a comment here many years ago saying that her ex-husband drank himself to death. So it's not an unfamiliar concept to her. Somebody should stop her, though.

19 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:01:41pm

re: #17 It's a cookbook!

O.o

Start?

Hey, learn to have fun with it.

heh. I've seen 'em. speechless, here.

20 jaunte  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:02:34pm

re: #4 Charles Johnson

Dee-in-Houston is apparently someone who wants to follow Pam's blogging footsteps to fame and fortune.

21 Kragar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:03:12pm

re: #15 reine.de.tout

Oh, hush, you'll start rumors.

The Rooster crows at midnight. Juniper Seven.

I've said too much.

22 researchok  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:03:36pm

re: #7 reine.de.tout

What the heck is wrong with that Geller? It's astounding how incoherent that post was.

Blame the box of wine.

23 Kragar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:03:53pm

re: #18 wrenchwench

She posted a comment here many years ago saying that her ex-husband drank himself to death.

I can't imagine why...

24 Kragar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:04:12pm

re: #22 researchok

Blame the box of wine.

But it was a good week.

25 freetoken  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:06:24pm

I notice that over at the Harry's Place entry which was a cross posting from Bartholomew’s Notes on Religion, on Geller and the EDL, with h/t to LGF, that in the comments there is still some whining about how the "left" is failing in combating "Islamic Supremacists":

Ethan
14 June 2012, 11:12 pm

@Kolya
One important Western Liberal value is the ability to speak freely about controversial topics.
Worked out well for Salman Rushdie and Ayan Hirsi Ali.
Who defended them?

------------


M*o*r*g*y
14 June 2012, 11:17 pm

Who defended them?

Certainly not the left, who smeared and hounded them both as much as Islam did.

----------

DocMartyn
14 June 2012, 11:44 pm

The support for the EDL does give the left pause for thought.
The democratic calculation has to be; should we ally ourselves with Islamic Supremacists or with the people who fear Islamic Supremacists?
At the moment may on the left are going to follow Galloway.

26 jaunte  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:08:09pm

re: #25 freetoken

there is still some whining about how the "left" is failing in combating "Islamic Supremacists"

Whose week is it to steer the monolith?

27 Mocking Jay  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:08:37pm

re: #25 freetoken

I'm at a loss trying to recall when the Left hounded and smeared Rushdie.

28 erik_t  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:09:22pm

Maybe Geller is auditioning to be Rick Perry's new speechwriter.

29 freetoken  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:10:11pm

re: #26 jaunte

Whose week is it to steer the monolith?

Steering monoliths ... not done that since we built Stonehenge.

30 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:10:55pm

re: #5 lawhawk

That's just a brutal posting to work through, but I simply haven't the heart to rip into it. She's just not worth the effort even though it exposes just how disjointed her thinking is. Just found out that another close friend of mine was diagnosed with cancer. Fuck.

My condolences. Cancer is a major fuckup.

31 wrenchwench  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:11:45pm

re: #12 Charles Johnson

Wherever a wingnut feels like someone has outsmarted them, I am there.

Wherever a wingnut feels persecuted by a sekrit conspiracy, I am there.

I am everywhere.

...

Aggressive tentacles penetrating nearly every nation on earth.

32 Kragar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:13:00pm

re: #31 wrenchwench

...

No tentacle references please. I'm still getting over last night.

33 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:15:58pm

re: #12 Charles Johnson

Wherever a wingnut feels like someone has outsmarted them, I am there.

Wherever a wingnut feels persecuted by a sekrit conspiracy, I am there.

I am everywhere.

He's the goddamn Batman!

34 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:16:07pm

re: #30 Can't Hold the Eat

Thanks, gotta be strong for 'em but it's tough with so many of my close friends dealing with this around the same time.

35 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:17:58pm

A giant asteroid is approaching the earth!

WATCH IT LIVE!

36 Kragar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:19:35pm

re: #33 thedopefishlives

He's the goddamn Batman!

Because he's the blogger wingnuts deserves

37 Kragar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:20:53pm

re: #35 Learned Mother of Zion

A giant asteroid is approaching the earth!

WATCH IT LIVE!

Youtube Video
38 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:21:10pm

Congrats Charles.

From irrelevant to internet omniscient in just one paranoid leap!

39 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:21:42pm

re: #34 lawhawk

Thanks, gotta be strong for 'em but it's tough with so many of my close friends dealing with this around the same time.

As a completely useless but honest gesture attempting to help you feel better, all I can say is I have some idea of what you are going through, cancer has taken a number of my family, is about to take one more and has taken a few friends.

40 Mocking Jay  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:22:28pm

re: #32 Kragar

No tentacle references please. I'm still getting over last night.

Saw Prometheus?

Or are you up to things we'd rather not know about?

41 Kragar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:22:40pm

re: #38 Daniel Ballard

Congrats Charles.

From irrelevant to internet omniscient in just one paranoid leap!

Don't you get it? He's irrelevant AND omnipotent!

42 Kragar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:23:25pm

re: #40 It's a cookbook!

Saw Prometheus?

Or are you up to things we'd rather not know about?

Never wasting my time with Prometheus.

Rule 34 can be a dangerous thing.

43 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:25:25pm

re: #42 Kragar

Never wasting my time with Prometheus.

Rule 34 can be a dangerous thing.

Ah. Ended in .jp, did it?

44 Kragar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:27:24pm

re: #43 thedopefishlives

Ah. Ended in .jp, did it?

Nope. Chan.

45 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:27:49pm

re: #44 Kragar

Nope. Chan.

Oh.


...OH.

46 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:29:59pm

re: #5 lawhawk

Oh man. My FIL does have multiple myeloma, 84 years old and now on chemo. A younger friend of mine just went in for an appendectomy. Then they found cancer in the removed organ, went back in and took a little colon and margin area flesh. Damn as I get older it just keeps happening closer and closer. It's like being trapped on a golf course in a lightning storm.

47 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:31:30pm

re: #34 lawhawk

Thanks, gotta be strong for 'em but it's tough with so many of my close friends dealing with this around the same time.

I'm sorry to hear that. Thoughts and prayers for you and all your friends.

48 Mocking Jay  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:32:06pm

re: #46 Daniel Ballard

Oh man. My FIL does have multiple myeloma, 84 years old and now on chemo. A younger friend of mine just went in for an appendectomy. Then they found cancer in the removed organ, went back in and took a little colon and margin area flesh. Damn as I get older it just keeps happening closer and closer. It's like being trapped on a golf course in a lightning storm.

Last October I found out that a distant friend had a heart attack. Another, a few months later, had a stroke. Both under 40. Scary shit.

(Edited to look less like Geller wrote this...)

49 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:41:15pm

re: #34 lawhawk

Thanks, gotta be strong for 'em but it's tough with so many of my close friends dealing with this around the same time.

Damn. All downtown Manhattan? I just wonder because of all the ... stuff... in the air a wee bit more than 10 years ago...

Hang in there, they need you more than ever.

50 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:41:41pm

re: #48 It's a cookbook!

The one thing worse than getting older is not making it that far. So sad.

51 freetoken  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:43:57pm

A topic that will not go away (this time from a well known conservative writer):

Mormon, Not Christian

52 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:44:57pm

re: #50 Daniel Ballard

The one thing worse than getting older is not making it that far. So sad.

Yeah, I think about that from time to time. 12 more will get me to 60 and to either my son's college graduation or the end of his first 4 years in the military. Knowing him, I'm not sure which ;)

53 freetoken  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:48:25pm

What I find strangely entertaining (and perhaps that is simply my twisted personality) is this idea that a mid-19th century fraud/scam perpetuated by an otherwise little known American ought to be thought of as a "fourth" Abrahamic religion.

The origins of Mormonism are not a secret.

Yet in our country of hyper-religious magical thinkers it's somehow wrong to point out when a fraud is a fraud.

54 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:55:53pm

Since my BBQ is on the front porch I can usually tell how good I'm doing by the number of compliments and recipe requests. Tonight's experiment got 3 compliments and 2 recipe requests which is pretty damn good.
Pork chop marinade
allspice, coriander, red pepper, black pepper (toasted and crushed in a mortar and pestle)
Garlic, ginger, Kaffir lime leaves crushed into the mix. add soy sauce, apple cider vinegar, olive oil, a pinch of brown sugar.
Damn tasty.
I'm thinking of adding Fenugreek next time.

55 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:57:03pm

re: #37 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Youtube Video
56 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 6:58:43pm

re: #46 Daniel Ballard

Oh man. My FIL does have multiple myeloma, 84 years old and now on chemo. A younger friend of mine just went in for an appendectomy. Then they found cancer in the removed organ, went back in and took a little colon and margin area flesh. Damn as I get older it just keeps happening closer and closer. It's like being trapped on a golf course in a lightning storm.

And you don't have a 1-iron, do you?

57 Kragar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:02:53pm

re: #56 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

And you don't have a 1-iron, do you?

Youtube Video
58 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:02:55pm

re: #52 William Barnett-Lewis

Yeah, I think about that from time to time. 12 more will get me to 60 and to either my son's college graduation or the end of his first 4 years in the military. Knowing him, I'm not sure which ;)

re: #50 Daniel Ballard

The one thing worse than getting older is not making it that far. So sad.

Interesting idea, something that's been rattling around in my head lately.
My daughter is a nurse's aid in an old folk's home and every time I pick her up there I see all the people who can't survive without someone else taking care of them.

I can't imagine being like that. I can't imagine why anyone would want that. If I was in a position where I couldn't take care of myself I would rather be dead.

59 PhillyPretzel  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:09:08pm

If everything goes off the way it should I should get my fence installed this weekend. I also hope to get a new A/C unit in my "home office." My "home office" is one of the back bedrooms.

60 Big Joe  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:09:45pm

re: #58 b_sharp

I'm doing my best to die of a massive heart attack or stroke before cancer catches up.

61 jaunte  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:10:08pm

Farm rentals, dumpster dives: Europe crisis is mother of invention

...In the midst of Greece’s economic crisis, one entrepreneur has come up with a novel way to earn extra cash: He’s renting out farmland. Dimitris Koutsolioutsos started gineagrotis.gr to connect city dwellers to rural farmers. The urban resident rents out a section of the farmer’s land to grow whatever produce is desired, which is then delivered to the city each week — either to the resident or, if desired, a local soup kitchen.

62 Kragar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:15:01pm

Breivik turned from kind son to crazy loner: mother

The mother of Norwegian mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik described how her "kind and caring" son transformed into an out-of-control obsessive who wore a face mask and talked of a war against Muslims, a psychiatrist told a court on Thursday.

Psychiatrist Torgeir Husby read out quotes from an interview he carried out with Breivik's mother - the first time her words has been heard during the trial of the man who has admitted killing 77 people in bomb and shooting attacks in July.

"I thought that he was turning completely crazy, I thought there must be something wrong with his head," read out Husby, quoting Wenche Behring, as a visibly nervous Breivik looked on at the hearing.

The court had earlier heard Breivik had behavioral problems as a child, and a psychiatrist had recommended he be removed from his family at the age of four.

63 Mocking Jay  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:17:34pm

re: #53 freetoken

What I find strangely entertaining (and perhaps that is simply my twisted personality) is this idea that a mid-19th century fraud/scam perpetuated by an otherwise little known American ought to be thought of as a "fourth" Abrahamic religion.

The origins of Mormonism are not a secret.

Yet in our country of hyper-religious magical thinkers it's somehow wrong to point out when a fraud is a fraud.

Yeah, I wasted many hours going through Mormonthink.com and I just don't get it. *shrug*

64 Kragar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:20:33pm

re: #63 It's a cookbook!

Yeah, I wasted many hours going through Mormonthink.com and I just don't get it. *shrug*

Crom makes more sense, though Khorne has more church activities.

65 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:20:59pm

re: #53 freetoken

The reason why no one points out the obvious about Mormonism is that if they start to do that, they're opening the door to the same kind of critiques for other religions. And that would lead to places where nobody wants to go.

66 Kragar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:25:05pm

re: #65 Charles Johnson

The reason why no one points out the obvious about Mormonism is that if they start to do that, they're opening the door to the same kind of critiques for other religions. And that would lead to places where nobody wants to go.

Oh, but its fun!

67 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:29:38pm

re: #65 Charles Johnson

The reason why no one points out the obvious about Mormonism is that if they start to do that, they're opening the door to the same kind of critiques for other religions. And that would lead to places where nobody wants to go.

Pretty much this. I know that the Post-Easter Jesus that I believe in doesn't make sense to many folks here. Other things make even less to me. Why go back to where our ancestors in europe were for the past couple of thousand years?

I know what I believe. If you want, I'll discuss it. If not, the golden rule (as expressed by Jesus, Hillel, Buddah, etc) tells me to treat others the way I want to be treated and I'll leave you alone.

That's how it's supposed to be. "do this and you will live."
(thank you Charles for the pencil...)

68 Big Steve  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:30:29pm

re: #65 Charles Johnson

The reason why no one points out the obvious about Mormonism is that if they start to do that, they're opening the door to the same kind of critiques for other religions. And that would lead to places where nobody wants to go.

Really laughed....this reminded me of a true story. Years ago the ex Mrs Big Steve and I were living in a quiet suburban neighborhood. Our oldest son was maybe three and played with a same age boy who lived down the street. This friend's mom was quite religious...Christian. Anyway, one day son of Big Steve's is sitting at the dinner table and nonchalantly says; "Mom you know there is a man who knows EVERYTHING about me." Mrs Big Steve (very startled) says "who told you this" to which son replies that Mrs So and So down the street told him about this man and that "there is a whole book about him." So, yes, I agree just about every religion is a tad odd at the center.

69 Kragar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:31:11pm

Germany bans Salafist network

Germany's interior minister banned an ultraconservative Salafist Islamic group after officials found an explosive vest during a raid, a leaked document said.

The document, obtained by Britain's The Telegraph, said the vest was found on premises in Berlin linked to Salafist organization Millatu Ibrahim.

Ultraconservative Salafists seek to establish Sharia law in Europe and wish to convert non-Muslims by handing out 25 million copies of the Koran in Germany, Austria and Switzerland, the newspaper said.

"The vest is a further sign of the organization's underlying aggression," the document said.

70 Kragar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:32:17pm

re: #67 William Barnett-Lewis

That's how it's supposed to be. "do this and you will live."

The problem being in almost every instance its become "Do what we say or you'll be punished for eternity!"

71 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:35:00pm

re: #65 Charles Johnson

The reason why no one points out the obvious about Mormonism is that if they start to do that, they're opening the door to the same kind of critiques for other religions. And that would lead to places where nobody wants to go.

Some of us do.

72 Kragar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:38:20pm

re: #71 b_sharp

Some of us do.

The Chaos Powers and the Emperor make at least as much sense as Dominionism.

73 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:39:19pm

re: #65 Charles Johnson

Somewhere there is a line between belittling a persons religious beliefs and how to critique a candidate. Every religion is vulnerable in some way to the critics.

But this is a nation that aspires to respect freedom of religion. It's also a place that knows few rhetorical bounds in an election year.

74 Varek Raith  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:39:31pm

GOP Features Stock Photo Of Asian Children On Latino Outreach Site
DERP.

75 Kragar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:41:19pm

re: #74 Varek Raith

GOP Features Stock Photo Of Asian Children On Latino Outreach Site
DERP.

Oh, it gets better.

RNC’s Dysfunctional Latino Site Posts Vote On Obama — And Loses

It’s been a rough day for the Republican National Committee’s Latino outreach website.

On Thursday afternoon, the RNC had to hastily take down the site’s banner, which featured a picture of Asian children, replacing it with an all-caps headline “HISPANIC LATINO STRATEGIC PARTNERSHIPS.”

But other features of the site aren’t working quite as planned, either. The main page features a straw poll asking visitors whether they’re disappointed with President Obama, a talking point Republicans have been pushing as part of their outreach effort. As of Thursday evening, however, Obama was winning the unscientific survey 55 percent to 45 percent — highly unusual on a partisan website.

In another broken feature, the site’s info page, in English “Who Are We?”, is left entirely blank.

76 Mocking Jay  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:41:29pm

re: #74 Varek Raith

GOP Features Stock Photo Of Asian Children On Latino Outreach Site
DERP.

It gets better.

RNC’s Dysfunctional Latino Site Posts Vote On Obama — And Loses

But other features of the site aren’t working quite as planned, either. The main page features a straw poll asking visitors whether they’re disappointed with President Obama, a talking point Republicans have been pushing as part of their outreach effort. As of Thursday evening, however, Obama was winning the unscientific survey 55 percent to 45 percent — highly unusual on a partisan website.

77 Varek Raith  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:41:34pm

re: #75 Kragar

Oh, it gets better.

RNC’s Dysfunctional Latino Site Posts Vote On Obama — And Loses

ROFL.

78 Mocking Jay  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:41:52pm

re: #75 Kragar

God I hate you so much.

79 Kragar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:44:34pm

re: #78 It's a cookbook!

God I hate you so much.

Well, thanks for calling me a God anyways. Always nice to get the recognition.

80 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:47:31pm

re: #73 Daniel Ballard

Somewhere there is a line between belittling a persons religious beliefs and how to critique a candidate. Every religion is vulnerable in some way to the critics.

But this is a nation that aspires to respect freedom of religion. It's also a place that knows few rhetorical bounds in an election year.

There are several ways to engage a religious person in a religious debate and not all of them require belittling the person.

I'm as gnu-atheist as PZ Myers is but I won't belittle a person over his/her beliefs. I understand that belief itself is an adaptive strategy that has worked in human cultures for thousands of years. However, when I see something really silly in the religion itself, I will comment on how silly it is.

81 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:50:43pm

re: #14 Kragar

SEND THEM TO THE GULAG!

[Embedded content]

We could splice together a collection of Geller's screeches and call it "Geller: Bringer of DERP!"

82 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:52:11pm

re: #81 Dark_Falcon

We could splice together a collection of Geller's screeches and call it "Geller: Bringer of DERP!"

I actual feel somewhat sorry for her and think she really needs emotional help.

83 Mocking Jay  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:52:46pm

re: #82 b_sharp

I actual feel somewhat sorry for her and think she really needs emotional help.

Or AA.

84 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:54:27pm

re: #83 It's a cookbook!

Or AA.

That, and her hate is controlling her so much she's lost sight of reality.

85 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 7:58:21pm

re: #84 b_sharp

That, and her hate is controlling her so much she's lost sight of reality.

I'm pretty sure that's it, and its part of why I don't feel sorry for her. She is a purveyor of hate and filth, whose words are utterly without redeeming value.

86 Targetpractice  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 8:06:49pm

re: #84 b_sharp

That, and her hate is controlling her so much she's lost sight of reality.

Are we sure she hasn't just given into the Dark Side of the Derp?

87 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 8:13:06pm

re: #86 Targetpractice

Are we sure she hasn't just given into the Dark Side of the Derp?

DERP is the Dark Side. Honesty is the Light Side, but the realities of politics (the Dark Side's 'easier, quicker' options are almost always better politically) most politicians are compelled to DERP in order to retain their positions.

88 Varek Raith  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 8:15:57pm

The Skills Gap Myth: Why Companies Can’t Find Good People

89 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 8:16:09pm

re: #85 Dark_Falcon

I'm pretty sure that's it, and its part of why I don't feel sorry for her. She is a purveyor of hate and filth, whose words are utterly without redeeming value.

There's the difference between nature and nurture.

If I understand you right, you believe she is essentially evil, that her natural essence, her soul, so to speak, is one that can't be changed, and it's possible you're right, although not for the reasons stated.

My view is different. While there are processes in the brain that are hard wired, and the parts of the brain that are normally somewhat plastic can become almost hard wired because of hormonal uptake/over production problems, drugs and cognitive therapy can do a lot to change a persons outlook, and consequently his/her words.

90 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 8:16:50pm

re: #86 Targetpractice

Are we sure she hasn't just given into the Dark Side of the Derp?

She has obviously swallowed the derp pill.

91 Varek Raith  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 8:18:32pm

Here you go, DF.
[Link: www.cnn.com...]

92 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 8:24:15pm

re: #89 b_sharp

You are incorrect. I do not believe she is inherently evil, but I do believe that her recent actions are entirely evil. She may well one day repent of her wicked deeds and seek to atone for them, and I do hope that day comes. But until she demonstrates a turning away from the path she is on now, she is a malefactor for whom I feel no pity.

93 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 8:24:32pm

re: #82 b_sharp

I actual feel somewhat sorry for her and think she really needs emotional help.

I totally agree.

94 b_sharp  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 8:30:57pm

G'night folks.

95 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 8:38:05pm

Underwater

Youtube Video
96 JRCMYP  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 8:39:18pm

re: #65 Charles Johnson

The reason why no one points out the obvious about Mormonism is that if they start to do that, they're opening the door to the same kind of critiques for other religions. And that would lead to places where nobody wants to go.

This is true. I was talking with a woman who felt that Mormonism was a cult, weird, crazy, etc. She happened to be an evangelical christian. I told her that Mormonism didn't seem much crazier to me than her religion--to which she took great offense. She said something to the effect of Mormon's worshiping space aliens. And I said, "well, what's the difference between calling them space aliens or angels. And, btw, you worship a zombie. Didn't that Jesus character rise from the dead?"

She was not amused.

97 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 8:44:38pm

re: #85 Dark_Falcon

I'm pretty sure that's it, and its part of why I don't feel sorry for her. She is a purveyor of hate and filth, whose words are utterly without redeeming value.

I think either
a) she believes what she is saying
OR
b) she likes the attention
AND
c) needs help

98 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 8:45:45pm

re: #97 Dancing along the light of day

I think either
a) she believes what she is saying
OR
b) she likes the attention
AND
c) needs help

Any of those things can be true without invalidating what I said, so we're both right!

[looks up and waves]

99 dragonath  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 8:46:44pm

OT, but I find it worth talking about in light of Romney's "honking" taunting. You know Kerry's "I was for it, before I was against it" gaffe? I remember that event because I was there, and the unfortunate comment was precipitated by Kerry trying to reason with some asshole heckler who kept trying to yell him down.

Point is, Obama is a long way from Kerry, but they have been doing this kind of thing for a while now. The heckler got some kind of award from the Republican party. The local papers had a story about it.

100 freetoken  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 8:51:30pm

re: #65 Charles Johnson

The reason why no one points out the obvious about Mormonism is that if they start to do that, they're opening the door to the same kind of critiques for other religions. And that would lead to places where nobody wants to go.

My working model in trying to make sense of the society around me has come to that very conclusion - we collectively spend a great deal of our lives (time, effort) attempting to avoid looking critically at what we profess to believe.

People just don't want to go there.

It would be too destructive to our self image, which is our most cherished possession.

101 jaunte  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 8:56:04pm

Janitors take to streets for hike in wages

The SEIU represents about 3,200 Houston janitors who work for seven companies that contract to clean large office buildings. The union's contract with the cleaning companies expired last month.
...
The union janitors, who make $8.35 an hour, are seeking a contract that will bring that to $10 an hour in three years. Union officials say the companies have proposed a contract that would raise hourly pay to $8.85 by 2016.

$8.35 an hour is about $16,700 a year.
$10 is about $20,000.
$8.85 about 17,700.

102 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 8:57:30pm

Just arrived to the thread. Lol Pam. You are even more infamous.

Now I'll catch up. (went and saw Snow White & the Huntsman)

103 jaunte  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 8:59:27pm
104 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:09:40pm

re: #82 b_sharp

I actual feel somewhat sorry for her and think she really needs emotional help.

I feel a modicum of pity for her kids. Her, not so much.

105 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:11:55pm

re: #104 goddamnedfrank

I feel a modicum of pity for her kids. Her, not so much.

Her kids are adults? On their own, just as we are.

106 freetoken  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:15:41pm

re: #104 goddamnedfrank

None of us get to pick our parents.

One of the few facts of life of which I am quite sure.

107 Lidane  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:16:07pm

Oh, this should be fun:

GOP Senator Spars With Michelle Malkin On ‘Obamacare’

In an ominous sign for tensions between conservatives and the GOP over ‘Obamacare,’ a Senate Republican leadership member sparred with a popular right-wing blogger on Twitter Thursday over whether to reinstate pieces of the health care reform law in a potential replacement plan.

108 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:17:46pm

re: #105 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Her kids are adults? On their own, just as we are.

Even so, watching your mother descend into hate like that has got to be acutely depressing, so some pity can be justified. Dealing with a parent who is on a self-destructive course is a nightmare for any person.

109 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:18:54pm

Totally off topic. But the Mrs has reached Her designation safe and sound. I can now rest well. Night Lizards

110 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:20:49pm

re: #108 Dark_Falcon

Even so, watching your mother descend into hate like that has got to be acutely depressing, so some pity can be justified. Dealing with a parent who is on a self-destructive course is a nightmare for any person.

Ya. I know. That's the Gellar's kids cross to bear. At least my dad, who I love dearly, doesn't blog. He listens and spouts off Fox "news" tho. He stopped doing that to me, because he loves me back.

111 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:21:12pm

re: #107 Lidane

Oh, this should be fun:

GOP Senator Spars With Michelle Malkin On ‘Obamacare’

Nail 'er, Roy! I hope Roy blunt wins decisively, and he would if the views of the nation as a whole decided this fight. The question: Do enough Republicans understand the electoral importance of what Blunt was proposing to support him over Malkin.

112 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:21:46pm

re: #109 Bubblehead II

Totally off topic. But the Mrs has reached Her designation safe and sound. I can now rest well. Night Lizards

Great!

113 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:22:13pm

re: #109 Bubblehead II

Totally off topic. But the Mrs has reached Her designation safe and sound. I can now rest well. Night Lizards

Is your tummy full? (lol)

114 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:22:19pm

re: #110 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Ya. I know. That's the Gellar's kids cross to bear. At least my dad, who I love dearly, doesn't blog. He listens and spouts off Fox "news" tho. He stopped doing that to me, because he loves me back.

But he does love you, and that is a major redeeming factor.

115 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:24:17pm

re: #105 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Her kids are adults? On their own, just as we are.

Still must be embarrassing as hell.

"So, what's your Mom up to?"

"Oh, she's an Olympic champion muslim hater and drunken blogger."

I can sort of sympathize, while not even close to being in the same league my Mom is also a self absorbed shallow minded wingnut. So I take that level of empathy and amplify it by a billion or so for what I assume is the daily dose of verguenza ajena for the Geller kids.

116 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:24:34pm

re: #114 Dark_Falcon

But he does love you, and that is a major redeeming factor.

Major. He stopped Bill O for the full week I was there last. We talk sports.

117 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:25:16pm

re: #115 goddamnedfrank

At some point, you just get numb to this kind of thing.

118 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:30:15pm

OK, I've been liking this song.
And their video is AWESOME
(pardon the intro commercial!)

Youtube Video
119 Lidane  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:30:56pm

re: #111 Dark_Falcon

The question: Do enough Republicans understand the electoral importance of what Blunt was proposing to support him over Malkin.

LOL no. Most of them only understand whatever Faux News and the RWNJ bloggers and talk radio howler monkeys tell them.

120 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:40:19pm

re: #119 Lidane

LOL no. Most of them only understand whatever Faux News and the RWNJ bloggers and talk radio howler monkeys tell them.

You might be surprised about that. Many Republicans won't be all that keen to have their insurance claim denied because of a preexisting condition. Roy Blunt knows this and is likely figuring that Republican voters will more likely vote their perceived interests on this one instead of the their ideology.

121 Lidane  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:43:09pm

re: #120 Dark_Falcon

You might be surprised about that.

Considering the current state of the GOP, probably not.

Many Republicans won't be all that keen to have their insurance claim denied because of a preexisting condition. Roy Blunt knows this and is likely figuring that Republican voters will more likely vote their perceived interests on this one instead of the their ideology.

If people voted their actual interests instead of their ideology, the Tea Party wing wouldn't be holding the GOP by the balls right now.

You're far more optimistic than I am.

122 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:45:41pm

re: #121 Lidane

Considering the current state of the GOP, probably not.

If people voted their actual interests instead of their ideology, the Tea Party wing wouldn't be holding the GOP by the balls right now.

You're far more optimistic than I am.

We also hold different views, but as long as we treat each other decently it's all good.

Good Night, folks.

123 Varek Raith  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:49:31pm
Message - Rogue Drone: 01001010010100100010010100100011100100100100101001001000100111010101001.

I think it's mad a me.
XD

124 Kragar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:50:51pm

re: #123 Varek Raith

I think it's mad a me.
XD

Allow me to translate for you:

1 0 0 1 0 0 1
SOS
1 0 0 1 0 0 1
In distress
1 0 0 1 0 0

Memory banks unloading
Bytes break into bits
Unit One's in trouble and it's scared out of its wits

125 freetoken  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:51:19pm

IMO, Blunt ought not get in a pissing war with a hate-monger like Malkin unless he's willing to call her on exactly what she is and what she's doing.

126 darthstar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:53:45pm

I have to say I love that Geller piece...you can almost feel her faculties evading her with every keystroke as she careens ever blackout-ward before coming to rest in a pool of her own vomit and urine. Almost sexy, in a 4Chan kind of way...if 4Chan people were THAT sick.

127 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:54:35pm

re: #113 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Is your tummy full? (lol)

As matte of fact, yes t it is. Tuna Helper. Where would be with out it.

Seriously, Lizards, May you have a good night a and a better tomorrow.

Sleep Well.

128 Kronocide  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:56:51pm

re: #125 freetoken

IMO, Blunt ought not get in a pissing war with a hate-monger like Malkin unless he's willing to call her on exactly what she is and what she's doing.

.... which is the same thing Charles noted about being critical of one religion, that you could use many of the criticisms against all.

Calling a partisan ideologue what they are would cause one to acknowledge how many in our media are partisan ideologues.

129 darthstar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 9:59:51pm
130 freetoken  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 10:03:21pm

re: #128 Kronocide

Malkin isn't just an ideologue, though. Many people in our society are ideologues - from academics to your local Sunday school teacher.

Malkin is a particular brand of societal maneuverer - a hate-monger. She sells fear and loathing of the "other", and in the most hypocritical of methods - by setting herself up as part of a beneficent theocracy.

131 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 10:39:58pm

Tap Tap Tap, is this thing on?

132 Kragar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 10:42:02pm

re: #131 Dancing along the light of day

Tap Tap Tap, is this thing on?

Nope.

133 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 10:43:32pm

re: #131 Dancing along the light of day

Tap Tap Tap, is this thing on?

Signing off!

134 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 10:48:01pm

re: #133 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Sleep tight!

135 freetoken  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 10:55:41pm
MP3 Audio
136 Kragar  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 11:37:36pm

Kragar's movie recommendation: Killer Elite

Starring Jason Statham, Clive Owen, Robert De Niro and Dominic Purcell

137 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 11:39:42pm

It's a bit late at night for a serious contribution, but Geller is just the slurred edge of anti-Islam.

This is the new Caldwell piece at The New Republic. It's coherent, but the reasoning isn't any different than Geller's: guilt by association, glossing specific events into grand declarations about all Muslims, and empty assertions that seem superficially reasonable only because most readers don't know anything about the subject.

To make his case, Caldwell simply steps around the fact that among the victims of Toulouse shooter Mohammed Merah were soldiers of Algerian descent. He also claims that Pakistan is somehow primarily Deobandi (which at best is a liberal interpretation of the statistic that they operate 65% of the madrasas). His general themes include "political correctness gone mad" regarding toleration of Islam, and that old saw about the dangers of a "demographic takeover." Of course, he ducks around the "how" of the presence of all these Muslims--surprise! They're the descendents of cheap colonial labor who've been kept marginal for decades...but that can't possibly have an effect on how they interact with the nation they dwell in--and even goes so far as to blame the rise of far-rightists (like LePen) on people wanting a counteraction to Muslims.

138 freetoken  Thu, Jun 14, 2012 11:49:50pm

re: #137 The Ghost of a Flea

The search for an easy "answer" to possibly intractable problems is unlikely to abate, for the reality of our world with over seven billion people all competing for limited resources will force upon us a future which will challenge everyone.

And, as you point out, this struggle in Europe over the presence of Muslims in what was considered a "Christian" continent is a direct result of the colonial period in which European powers conquered and then tried to manage North Africa, the Middle East, and South Asia. The latter brought in a multitude of cheap labor, which was desired by capitalists everywhere.

139 AK-47%  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 12:27:16am

re: #88 Varek Raith

The Skills Gap Myth: Why Companies Can’t Find Good People

"Human Resources" is merely a euphemism: our modern system has reduced labor to just another cost of production, along with office supplies and electricity, one to be minimized, outsourced or eliminated outright to maximize profits.

Anyone trying to put a value on human labor that goes beyond the market value is branded a "socilist" and redistributor of wealth.

140 Kragar  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 12:37:26am

re: #139 Expand Your Ground

"Human Resources" is merely a euphemism: our modern system has reduced labor to just another cost of production, along with office supplies and electricity, one to be minimized, outsourced or eliminated outright to maximize profits.

Anyone trying to put a value on human labor that goes beyond the market value is branded a "socilist" and redistributor of wealth.

The glory of the information age. The ability to actually understand, use, and teach the ability to harness that information pays an almost infinitesimal amount compared to the ability to throw a rubber ball accurately.

141 prairiefire  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 12:40:26am

re: #136 Kragar

Kragar's movie recommendation: Killer Elite

Starring Jason Statham, Clive Owen, Robert De Niro and Dominic Purcell

Mmmmmm, Clive Owen.

142 Kragar  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 12:43:54am

re: #141 prairiefire

Mmmm, Clive Owen.

Youtube Video
143 prairiefire  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 12:53:48am

re: #142 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Thanks! He looks like he has been keeping up with his
Rogaine applications.

144 Kragar  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 1:01:52am

The nice thing is the trailer actually doesn't give much of the real story away. The story it implies actually unfolds much differently in the film.

Prometheus trailer, I'm speaking to you.

145 researchok  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 1:16:01am

Morning, all

146 AK-47%  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 1:27:45am

re: #142 Kragar

SNL English Movie Trailer

147 Kragar  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 1:35:31am

re: #146 Expand Your Ground

SNL English Movie Trailer

Youtube Video
148 AK-47%  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 2:40:22am

hired killers just assassinated this thread?

149 freetoken  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 3:03:20am
MP3 Audio
150 AK-47%  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 3:13:39am

re: #149 freetoken

requiem for a dead thread?

151 boxhead  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 3:50:19am

re: #148 Expand Your Ground

hired killers just assassinated this thread?

usually I kill threads... heh

152 AK-47%  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 3:56:44am

Comes from the time zone I am in, midday in Germany is middle of the night for most of North America...

153 sattv4u2  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 4:22:14am

re: #152 Expand Your Ground

Comes from the time zone I am in, midday in Germany is middle of the night for most of North America...

And the "middle of the night for most of North America" is the middle of my work "day" even though I'm in the Eastern time zone of NA

154 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 4:22:43am

It's 7:30 in the morning here.

155 sattv4u2  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 4:23:34am

re: #154 Learned Mother of Zion

It's 7:30 in the morning here.

Whats for breakfast?

156 sattv4u2  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 4:24:33am

re: #154 Learned Mother of Zion

Make my sammich wrong, I'm calling the cops on you!!

[Link: www.nbcconnecticut.com...]

“I specifically asked for little turkey, and little ham, a lot of cheese and a lot of mayonnaise and they are giving me a hard time. I wonder if you can stop by,,,,"

157 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 4:24:40am

re: #155 sattv4u2

Whats for breakfast?

Toasted bagel and coffee.

158 sattv4u2  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 4:25:34am

re: #157 Learned Mother of Zion

Toasted bagel and coffee.

Great,, i'll have a cinnamon/ raisin with a schmear and no sugar/ very dark on the coffee please

159 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 4:32:32am

re: #158 sattv4u2

Great,, i'll have a cinnamon/ raisin with a schmear and no sugar/ very dark on the coffee please

Over there in the break room. Help yourself.

160 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 4:33:32am

re: #156 sattv4u2

Make my sammich wrong, I'm calling the cops on you!!

[Link: www.nbcconnecticut.com...]

“I specifically asked for little turkey, and little ham, a lot of cheese and a lot of mayonnaise and they are giving me a hard time. I wonder if you can stop by,,,"

Just called the cops? That's what happens when you don't live in a Stand Your Ground state.

161 sattv4u2  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 4:33:58am

re: #159 Learned Mother of Zion

Over there in the break room. Help yourself.

Well by golly,,, you're right!!!

(co-worker brought in a box of Einsteins Bagels yesterday)

You so smart!!!

162 sattv4u2  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 4:35:41am

re: #160 Decatur Deb

Just called the cops? That's what happens when you don't live in a Stand Your Ground state.

re: #160 Decatur Deb

Just called the cops? That's what happens when you don't live in a Stand Your Ground state.

The dispatcher should get an award

“You’re calling 911 because you don’t like way that they’re making your sandwich?” the dispatcher asks.

“Exactly,” he said.

With that settled, the dispatcher offers some advice:

“So, then, don’t buy it,” she said.

163 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 4:38:21am

re: #162 sattv4u2

re: #160 Decatur Deb

The dispatcher should get an award

“You’re calling 911 because you don’t like way that they’re making your sandwich?” the dispatcher asks.

“Exactly,” he said.

With that settled, the dispatcher offers some advice:

“So, then, don’t buy it,” she said.

Is it religious discrimination if a fleishig deli won't sell you ham, cheese, and turkey? Demand your rights, dude!

164 Decatur Deb  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 4:40:01am

Morning drive-by--got a crazy old farts meeting today.

165 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 4:47:33am

re: #53 freetoken

What I find strangely entertaining (and perhaps that is simply my twisted personality) is this idea that a mid-19th century fraud/scam perpetuated by an otherwise little known American ought to be thought of as a "fourth" Abrahamic religion.

The origins of Mormonism are not a secret.

Yet in our country of hyper-religious magical thinkers it's somehow wrong to point out when a fraud is a fraud.

Find me a single religion that is not rooted in fraud. If you can't, explain why Mormonism should be singled out.

166 AK-47%  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 4:51:01am

re: #165 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton

Find me a single religion that is not rooted in fraud. If you can't, explain why Mormonism should be singled out.

I have no objection to Mormonism as a religion, nor am I willing to reject Mitt Romney outright simply for being a Mormon.

But we have to admit that Mormonism is an incredibly bizarre, secretive and patriarchal religion, even by American standards, and I can see how this would affect Mitt's thinking and his approach to governing.

167 sattv4u2  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:18:28am

re: #163 Decatur Deb

Is it religious discrimination if a fleishig deli won't sell you ham, cheese, and turkey? Demand your rights, dude!

oh ,, they sold it to him, just not in the correct proportions!

168 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:20:07am

re: #136 Kragar

Kragar's movie recommendation: Killer Elite

Starring Jason Statham, Clive Owen, Robert De Niro and Dominic Purcell

Have you seen the older version with Duvall and Caan?

169 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:21:35am

Morning Lizardim.

170 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:22:20am

re: #163 Decatur Deb

Is it religious discrimination if a fleishig deli won't sell you ham, cheese, and turkey? Demand your rights, dude!

Some co-workers are joking about going into the kosher burger place and trying to order a cheesesteak. It's Philly, there *has* to be a cheesesteak option.

171 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:24:28am

re: #170 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Some co-workers are joking about going into the kosher burger place and trying to order a cheesesteak. It's Philly, there *has* to be a cheesesteak option.

They probably do have it, with some kind of gross vegan cheese.

172 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:25:16am

re: #169 thedopefishlives

Morning Lizardim.

Morning Dopefish. How are things in the wild and wooly North today?

Quiet Friday so far here in Philly. First meeting of the day in five minutes. But coffee has been drunk and English muffins eaten, so I am prepared.

173 sattv4u2  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:25:49am

re: #171 Learned Mother of Zion

They probably do have it, with some kind of gross vegan cheese.

Otherwise known as spackle!

174 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:27:14am

re: #173 sattv4u2

Otherwise known as spackle!

It's also a dessert topping!

175 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:27:25am

re: #172 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Morning Dopefish. How are things in the wild and wooly North today?

Quiet Friday so far here in Philly. First meeting of the day in five minutes. But coffee has been drunk and English muffins eaten, so I am prepared.

Cloudy, cool, rainy, and a bit subdued now that your Phillies have hammered our Twins back into the dirt from whence they came. So far, a relatively slow Friday, but I'm most looking forward to tonight. I have a sleep study that may help me figure out why I have problems staying awake at work.

176 sattv4u2  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:29:01am

re: #174 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

It's also a dessert topping!

and a floor wax

177 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:30:08am

re: #175 thedopefishlives

Cloudy, cool, rainy, and a bit subdued now that your Phillies have hammered our Twins back into the dirt from whence they came. So far, a relatively slow Friday, but I'm most looking forward to tonight. I have a sleep study that may help me figure out why I have problems staying awake at work.

heh. I live in Philly, but am actually a Pirates fan due to upbringing.

Hmm. Got a friend request on facebook and didn't readily recognize the name. After some thought I think it's a cousin of mine - will have to do some further checking. If so, I see she is using her mother's maiden name as her last name there.

178 makeitstop  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:33:25am

Anybody seen my cell phone?

179 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:33:52am

re: #177 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

heh. I live in Philly, but am actually a Pirates fan due to upbringing.

Hmm. Got a friend request on facebook and didn't readily recognize the name. After some thought I think it's a cousin of mine - will have to do some further checking. If so, I see she is using her mother's maiden name as her last name there.

It's quite plausible. I know a lot of women who use variations on maiden names for their Facebook identities. I even know one person who pulled a completely random name in order to stay relatively anonymous, so as to prevent her students (and her employer, probably) from finding her Facebook page.

180 sattv4u2  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:34:07am

re: #178 makeitstop

Anybody seen my cell phone?

Yup,, right next to your car keys!

Oh ,,wait ,, you can't find those either, huh!

181 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:35:04am

re: #180 sattv4u2

Yup,, right next to your car keys!

Oh ,,wait ,, you can't find those either, huh!

I see the gnomes have worked out a way to make a profit on something...

182 makeitstop  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:36:12am

re: #180 sattv4u2

Yup,, right next to your car keys!

Oh ,,wait ,, you can't find those either, huh!

I found those, even though I don't have to go anywhere yet.

How is everyone this morning?

183 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:37:26am

re: #177 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

heh. I live in Philly, but am actually a Pirates fan due to upbringing.

That's alright. You'd think I would be a Vikings fan (or a Packers fan, depending), but since my stay in the wild north country has been relatively brief, my love is actually given to the Colts. What little love I have for professional football, that is.

184 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:37:27am

re: #179 thedopefishlives

It's quite plausible. I know a lot of women who use variations on maiden names for their Facebook identities. I even know one person who pulled a completely random name in order to stay relatively anonymous, so as to prevent her students (and her employer, probably) from finding her Facebook page.

That could be one reason. There's a few other possible reasons I think - related to family affairs. Stuff not worth going into on a comment, but part of the soap opera side of the family on my father's side.

185 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:39:20am

re: #184 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

That could be one reason. There's a few other possible reasons I think - related to family affairs. Stuff not worth going into on a comment, but part of the soap opera side of the family on my father's side.

Eh, it could be just about anything. One of my nieces had a seemingly random name prefixing her given name. We found out that that's the name she chose to put down when she filed for a birth certificate in order to get her passport.

186 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:40:28am

re: #183 thedopefishlives

That's alright. You'd think I would be a Vikings fan (or a Packers fan, depending), but since my stay in the wild north country has been relatively brief, my love is actually given to the Colts. What little love I have for professional football, that is.

None of my kids live in Detroit, but they are all Tigers/Lions/Pistons/RedWings fans.

187 AK-47%  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:41:24am

re: #179 thedopefishlives

It's quite plausible. I know a lot of women who use variations on maiden names for their Facebook identities. I even know one person who pulled a completely random name in order to stay relatively anonymous, so as to prevent her students (and her employer, probably) from finding her Facebook page.

I explain to a lot of people that FB does not require you to spill every detail of your soul online.I have gone through and removed almost all personal information, and use it mostly to promote my musical activities and keep in touch with far-flung friends and relatives.

And as a rule, I friend nobody I do not know from Real Life (TM) and wish to keep in touch with in Real Life (TM)

188 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:44:21am

re: #185 thedopefishlives

Eh, it could be just about anything. One of my nieces had a seemingly random name prefixing her given name. We found out that that's the name she chose to put down when she filed for a birth certificate in order to get her passport.

My niece was given four names. One was Chinese and one reason an extra English name was added was in case she ever wanted to drop it and just use an all English name. At this point I think she is quite happy with the fairly unique first name (though I'm sure she gets frustrated with people misspelling it.)

And by giving her extra names my brother got to include another historical family name plus one that was there simply because he liked the name Joplin.

189 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:44:58am

re: #187 Expand Your Ground

I explain to a lot of people that FB does not require you to spill every detail of your soul online.I have gone through and removed almost all personal information, and use it mostly to promote my musical activities and keep in touch with far-flung friends and relatives.

And as a rule, I friend nobody I do not know from Real Life (TM) and wish to keep in touch with in Real Life (TM)

I'm right there with you. I restrict my friends list to my immediate family - not even my nieces and nephews, even though I do like most of them - and a select group of old college buddies and one or two high school friends I feel are worth keeping up with. I post maybe once every week or two, and it's mostly rants about bad drivers or just general commentary on how life is. 99% of my Facebook activity is private messaging with my wife these days, and most of the other 1% is keeping in touch with my mom, since I am the roaming child of the family. I have no co-workers on my Facebook friends, and in addition, I have my friends strictly sorted into groups and am careful to compartmentalize when necessary.

190 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:45:56am

re: #187 Expand Your Ground

I explain to a lot of people that FB does not require you to spill every detail of your soul online.I have gone through and removed almost all personal information, and use it mostly to promote my musical activities and keep in touch with far-flung friends and relatives.

And as a rule, I friend nobody I do not know from Real Life (TM) and wish to keep in touch with in Real Life (TM)

Given my very light Facebook usage I follow roughly that approach. I just check it now and then to keep tabs on relatives and some farflung friends.

191 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:47:19am

It also helps that I have my Facebook privacy settings set such that only people I am already friends with can read my posts. Even though I post nothing controversial or incriminating, I still worry about potential future employers doing a Facebook check. For this reason, I do not possess a Twitter account.

192 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:49:57am

re: #186 Learned Mother of Zion

None of my kids live in Detroit, but they are all Tigers/Lions/Pistons/RedWings fans.

Similar to how my family (other than me) have lived near Pittsburgh since 2000 and all are Pirate/Penguin/Steeler fans.

And I am still amused with the ability to find "Steeler bars" just about anywhere, including locations overseas.

193 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 5:52:58am

re: #165 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton

Find me a single religion that is not rooted in fraud. If you can't, explain why Mormonism should be singled out.

Mormonism can be singled out because its origins are so well documented. Christianity and others can hide behind the fog of centuries.

I would add, Scientology is equally well documented and deserving of scorn.

194 AK-47%  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:04:13am

re: #193 Achilles Tang

Mormonism can be singled out because its origins are so well documented. Christianity and others can hide behind the fog of centuries.

I would add, Scientology is equally well documented and deserving of scorn.

There are a lot of Christians who distnace themselves from the mythology their religion is based on, claiming simply that was the way people thought and expressed themselves back in those days.

Similar claims do not really apply to modern religions.

195 sattv4u2  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:04:18am

re: #166 Expand Your Ground

I have no objection to Mormonism as a religion, nor am I willing to reject Mitt Romney outright simply for being a Mormon.

But we have to admit that Mormonism is an incredibly bizarre, secretive and patriarchal religion, even by American standards, and I can see how this would affect Mitt's thinking and his approach to governing.

Do you think it's affected Harry Reids "approach to governing"?

196 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:07:43am

re: #192 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Similar to how my family (other than me) have lived near Pittsburgh since 2000 and all are Pirate/Penguin/Steeler fans.

And I am still amused with the ability to find "Steeler bars" just about anywhere, including locations overseas.

My son-in-law is from the UK, he has a favorite pub in Manhattan where he can follow all his lame UK sports.

197 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:07:52am

re: #166 Expand Your Ground

I have no objection to Mormonism as a religion, nor am I willing to reject Mitt Romney outright simply for being a Mormon.

But we have to admit that Mormonism is an incredibly bizarre, secretive and patriarchal religion,

Not more so than any other socially conservative faith.

even by American standards, and I can see how this would affect Mitt's thinking and his approach to governing.

Same is true for any other faith. You don't want a conservative in office. Whether this conservative is a follower of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism or is an atheist is a secondary matter. There are Mormon liberals (see, Harry Reid).

198 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:10:20am

re: #193 Achilles Tang

Mormonism can be singled out because its origins are so well documented. Christianity and others can hide behind the fog of centuries.

I would add, Scientology is equally well documented and deserving of scorn.

Um, just because there's fog around their origins doesn't mean these old religions aren't fraudulent at the root. So I don't get your argument.

199 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:10:41am

re: #196 Learned Mother of Zion

My son-in-law is from the UK, he has a favorite pub in Manhattan where he can follow all his lame UK sports.

It's sort of interesting working with Indians and Brazilians in how they adjust schedules in order to watch cricket or football matches, plus finding a place that televises them.

200 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:11:20am

re: #194 Expand Your Ground

There are a lot of Christians who distnace themselves from the mythology their religion is based on, claiming simply that was the way people thought and expressed themselves back in those days.

Similar claims do not really apply to modern religions.

How so? What is different?

201 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:12:08am

re: #199 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

It's sort of interesting working with Indians and Brazilians in how they adjust schedules in order to watch cricket or football matches, plus finding a place that televises them.

I work with a team of Indians on my current project. Ironically enough, the one that's actually into sports is a die-hard Miami Heat fan, of all things. So much so that he goes on a mini-bender whenever they lose.

202 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:12:22am

The attempts to say that one religious mythology is somehow more legitimate than the other are intellectually dishonest. They're all mythologies. Period.

203 SidewaysQuark  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:12:45am

re: #8 Charles Johnson

I've become the all-purpose wingnut super-villain.

But of course. Apostasy is the worst crime possible among deranged fanatics.

204 sattv4u2  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:13:20am

re: #198 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton

Um, just because there's fog around their origins doesn't mean these old religions aren't fraudulent at the root. So I don't get your argument.

For that matter (and not dredging up the whole Rev Wright thing) but "black theology" is a relatively recent phenom, so should that somehow invalidate Pres Obama because he attended a church that (to some degree) espoused that as a tenet?

205 Obdicut  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:14:36am

re: #204 sattv4u2

Heh. "Black theology"? Care to try again?

And if you didn't want to drudge it up, why'd you drudge it up?

206 sattv4u2  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:14:45am

re: #197 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton

Same is true for any other faith. You don't want a conservative in office. Whether this conservative is a follower of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism or is an atheist is a secondary matter. There are Mormon liberals (see, Harry Reid).

Nail/ Head

207 AK-47%  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:16:07am

re: #195 sattv4u2

Do you think it's affected Harry Reids "approach to governing"?

If I lived in Nevada and were considering Harry Reid as a candadate, it would be part of my consideration. But if he were running against Sharron Angle, it would be a minor concern.

I have pretty much settled on Obama as the better of the two candidates being offered, Mitt's Mormonism played only a miniscule role in reaching that assessment.

208 sattv4u2  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:16:07am

re: #205 Obdicut

Heh. "Black theology"? Care to try again?

no need

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]



And if you didn't want to drudge it up, why'd you drudge it up?


Wasn't bringing up any of the "controversies", just pointing out where Obama went to worship

209 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:16:55am

re: #204 sattv4u2

For that matter (and not dredging up the whole Rev Wright thing) but "black theology" is a relatively recent phenom, so should that somehow invalidate Pres Obama because he attended a church that (to some degree) espoused that as a tenet?

Well, I don't see Obama espousing this stuff, but you make a kinda good point - a person should still be judged individually, on his or her own views, not simply by attendance of some religious place.

210 Obdicut  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:17:42am

re: #197 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton

There are some faiths that are kind of liberal in and of themselves-- like the Quakers. The most famous Quaker we ever had in office was Richard Nixon. Yeah.

Anyway, I think there's two aspects-- it's not just not wanting a conservative of a particular religion in office, but a fanatic, be they ever so liberal. If their viewpoint of the world is really entirely based around their religion, even if their current viewpoint is one I'm sympathetic with it's too iffy to go along with. Luckily, most people ascribing their beliefs to their religion are really just following things that are common with pretty much all of humanity, and wrongly thinking that these are religiously inspired.

211 AK-47%  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:17:57am

re: #200 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton

How so? What is different?

The Enlightenment, for one thing, modern science, the birth of modern history and record-keeping.

And the fact that the sources can be documented and identified, and often verified as horseshit.

212 Obdicut  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:18:34am

re: #208 sattv4u2

Can you please note that what you were groping for was "Black liberation theology", not black theology? Black people have managed to have theology for quite some time now, it's not a new thing.

213 sattv4u2  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:18:53am

re: #209 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton

Well, I don't see Obama espousing this stuff, but you make a kinda good point - a person should still be judged individually, on his or her own views, not simply by attendance of some religious place.

Exactly

I recall Kennedy being looked at with suspicion because (supposedly) the Pope was going to be calling the shots once Kennedy took office

214 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:18:56am

This seems to be narrowing towards trying to assess how far a candidate/official's religious beliefs drive his political decisions while in office. And I think that will immediately break down along partisan lines on whether one thinks these beliefs make the official act in a progressive/conservative/liberal/socialist/reactionary manner.

215 Obdicut  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:19:03am

re: #211 Expand Your Ground

But a lot of the modern Christian sects reject the enlightenment, or at least large parts of it.

216 sattv4u2  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:19:20am

re: #212 Obdicut

Can you please note that what you were groping for was "Black liberation theology", not black theology? Black people have managed to have theology for quite some time now, it's not a new thing.

yes,, thanks

217 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:19:27am

re: #188 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

My niece was given four names. One was Chinese and one reason an extra English name was added was in case she ever wanted to drop it and just use an all English name. At this point I think she is quite happy with the fairly unique first name (though I'm sure she gets frustrated with people misspelling it.)

And by giving her extra names my brother got to include another historical family name plus one that was there simply because he liked the name Joplin.

We named our son with English first & family names but kept his Vietnamese birth name as his middle name - Lac, pronounced lock and meaning calm or peaceful from their Buddhist traditions. Of course, the humor I've had is that people think his name is "John Locke" and that we named him for the philosopher. Just a happy co-incidence.

218 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:19:56am

re: #211 Expand Your Ground

The Enlightenment, for one thing, modern science, the birth of modern history and record-keeping.

And the fact that the sources can be documented and identified, and often verified as horseshit.

Well, again, what is different wrt ancient religions? Factual claims of their scriptures have been verified as false in numerous places. You still haven't identified any relevant difference.

219 AK-47%  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:20:56am

re: #215 Obdicut

But a lot of the modern Christian sects reject the enlightenment, or at least large parts of it.

Yes, and those are sects that I am suspicious of.

I do not reject any candidate outright for their religious beliefs, but it is a factor I do consider when trying to judge who is the better candidate.

This argument is going to get turned inside and out depending on who one supports and who one is railing against, Mormonisms for Mitt, Rev Wright for Obama.

220 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:20:59am

re: #210 Obdicut

Sure, and that's still judging an individual. Nobody wants some cultish guy in office - regardless of religion. It's a personality trait.

221 AK-47%  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:23:09am

re: #218 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton

Well, again, what is different wrt ancient religions? Factual claims of their scriptures have been verified as false in numerous places. You still haven't identified any relevant difference.

They have more "fog of history" to hide behind. And they are helped in that that their legends have become part of our culture and folklore: almost everyone knows about the Garden of Eden, The Flood, Sodom and Gommorrah, etc...

222 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:23:43am
223 Obdicut  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:25:51am

re: #220 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton

Sure, and that's still judging an individual. Nobody wants some cultish guy in office - regardless of religion. It's a personality trait.

Well, there are religions that tend more towards the fanatical than other religions. Southern Baptist, Wahabist, etc. tend to have more fanatical members. That can change over time, of course, it's not at all set in stone or based off of anything essential to the religion, but if a candidate belongs to a religion known for it's dogmatic fanatical members, then it is reasonable I think to look at them more closely. In the end, you're still judging the person themselves, though.

224 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:26:48am

re: #219 Expand Your Ground

It's only an indirect factor. The Church X preaches such and such things, does politician Y subscribe to them wholeheartedly or not? Is he a liberal wrt these teachings or not? When you're asking these questions, you're still judging an individual on his own merits (views). So you might as well skip this step and pose direct questions: does he support such and such marriage, such and such foreign policy, etc. If a Mormon supports SSM (indicating a degree of independence from his Church's politics), does it matter that he is a Mormon? If an atheist candidate is against SSM, does it matter that he is not a Mormon?

225 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:27:33am

re: #198 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton

Um, just because there's fog around their origins doesn't mean these old religions aren't fraudulent at the root. So I don't get your argument.

I, on the other hand, get your argument.

I think it can be argued that people thousands of years ago were not fraudulent in their beliefs nor, if he existed, was Jesus. On the other hand I do think there is very strong evidence that Joseph Smith was a deliberate fraud.

Needless to say, that does not mean all Mormons are frauds, but I do question how they can follow, in this day, such an obviously human manufactured "religion". I particularly ascribe that to a presidential candidate.

226 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:28:50am

re: #215 Obdicut

But a lot of the modern Christian sects reject the enlightenment, or at least large parts of it.

Yes, many do. But also, there are more than a few of us that do not.

There is absolutely nothing in (small o) orthodox Christian faith that requires one to check their mind at the door outside of acceptance of the resurrection. That, for me, is simply a "mystery" and left at that.

The rest of modern science, history, & all the baggage of the enlightenment isn't touched by those beliefs and I find no problem in believing in god and evolution, for one example.

227 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:29:46am

re: #221 Expand Your Ground

They have more "fog of history" to hide behind. And they are helped in that that their legends have become part of our culture and folklore: almost everyone knows about the Garden of Eden, The Flood, Sodom and Gommorrah, etc...

Nice non-answer. How this clarifies your point about the difference in mythologies - I'm not sure. Does fog of history make ancient religions less false than modern religions? No. Does legends becoming part of culture make ancient religions less false than modern religions? No. So the level of fraudulence is the same. Then why bring it up and single the modern religions out?

228 AK-47%  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:30:25am

re: #226 William Barnett-Lewis

The rest of modern science, history, & all the baggage of the enlightenment isn't touched by those beliefs and I find no problem in believing in god and evolution, for one example.

You are going to hell. The Bible must be taken literally (even in its inspired King James translation) which means rejecting Evolution and most of modern science.

/

229 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:30:33am

re: #225 Achilles Tang

I, on the other hand, get your argument.

I think it can be argued that people thousands of years ago were not fraudulent in their beliefs nor, if he existed, was Jesus. On the other hand I do think there is very strong evidence that Joseph Smith was a deliberate fraud.

Needless to say, that does not mean all Mormons are frauds, but I do question how they can follow, in this day, such an obviously human manufactured "religion". I particularly ascribe that to a presidential candidate.

I think part of the problem is that from an outsider's perspective, it's easy to see how Joseph Smith was perpetrating a fraud. However, people who believe that modern man can be divinely inspired are certainly susceptible to believing that his ruse is of divine origin.

230 AK-47%  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:32:30am

re: #227 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton

Nice non-answer. How this clarifies your point about the difference in mythologies - I'm not sure. Does fog of history make ancient religions less false than modern religions? No. Does legends becoming part of culture make ancient religions less false than modern religions? No. So the level of fraudulence is the same. Then why bring it up and single the modern religions out?

I agree that mythology is mythology. Something that by nature lies beyond science or verifiability. Since most all religions fall into that category, I consider them mostly the same.

I just personally and subjectively find the ones that have sprung up since the Enlightenment to be partculary worthy of criticism.

231 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:32:34am

re: #228 Expand Your Ground

You are going to hell. The Bible must be taken literally (even in its inspired King James translation) which means rejecting Evolution and most of modern science.

/

If so, I expect to find the Hell of Heinlein's "Job" :D and I'll share wine with Mr. Jefferson.

232 sattv4u2  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:32:40am

re: #227 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton

Does fog of history make ancient religions less false than modern religions?

I would think, if anything, it could lead to MORE "false"

The retelling of tales over eons,,,,

Party game,,, 10 people in a circle,,,whisper a joke to the person sitting to your left ,,, then that person does the same to the person to his left , and so on

By the time it gets back to you the joke is unrecognizable to the 'original" teller

233 Obdicut  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:32:51am

re: #230 Expand Your Ground

Mythology doesn't lie beyond verifiability.

234 Mattand  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:33:23am

I just want to see the day where an atheist can be a credible candidate for President. Not holding my breath on that one.

236 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:34:14am

re: #223 Obdicut

Well, there are religions that tend more towards the fanatical than other religions. Southern Baptist, Wahabist, etc. tend to have more fanatical members. That can change over time, of course, it's not at all set in stone or based off of anything essential to the religion, but if a candidate belongs to a religion known for it's dogmatic fanatical members, then it is reasonable I think to look at them more closely. In the end, you're still judging the person themselves, though.

More closely than... at what? Unless you're thinking of a dark horse candidate mute about their views, I don't see how "bad" views won't come out through normal political scrutiny.

237 Obdicut  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:34:49am

re: #232 sattv4u2

Does fog of history make ancient religions less false than modern religions?

I would think, if anything, it could lead to MORE "false"

The retelling of tales over eons,,,

Party game,,, 10 people in a circle,,,whisper a joke to the person sitting to your left ,,, then that person does the same to the person to his left , and so on

By the time it gets back to you the joke is unrecognizable to the 'original" teller

Actually, this isn't true. It's only when people think that messages get confused, that they do. If you tell people to pass the joke along and that it's important to get it right, they'll do so no problem.

Why people believe otherwise has always been a mystery to me. Sure, sometimes messages get garbled in the telling, but much of human communication is retelling things to each other. We wouldn't really have survived as a species if we were that easily confused.

It is a great example gullibility, though, both in the people who believe this to be always true, and the people who, when participating, make it true because they've been told it's true.

238 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:35:04am

re: #235 Kronocide

Michigan State Rep Barred From Speaking After 'Vagina' Comments

Uppity wimminz, get back in the kitchen.

///

239 AK-47%  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:35:48am

re: #234 mattand

I just want to see the day where an atheist can be a credible candidate for President. Not holding my breath on that one.

I am certain that we have had several, they just kept their mouths shut about it to avoid a scandal and attended church in order to keep up appearances...

240 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:37:09am

re: #239 Expand Your Ground

I am certain that we have had several, they just kept their mouths shut about it to avoid a scandal and attended church in order to keep up appearances...

And the sad thing is, even as a devoted Christian, I don't care. As long as a candidate's religion and his/her politics are unrelated to each other, fine.

241 Mattand  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:37:28am

re: #239 Expand Your Ground

I am certain that we have had several, they just kept their mouths shut about it to avoid a scandal and attended church in order to keep up appearances...

A person who rejects the existence of a supernatural being due to lack of credible evidence? Never say never, I guess, but I doubt it.

242 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:38:35am

re: #229 thedopefishlives

I think part of the problem is that from an outsider's perspective, it's easy to see how Joseph Smith was perpetrating a fraud. However, people who believe that modern man can be divinely inspired are certainly susceptible to believing that his ruse is of divine origin.

If the story of Mormonism's origins could somehow be divorced from the con man himself, all their trials and tribulations and adventures are quite a classic tale of human endurance, endeavor and accomplishment.

I see it as two aspects, one is the mostly admirable social conventions and cohesion that it has created and the other is the religious fables themselves.

Why people need the latter in order to achieve the former (which can be argued is the case for better or worse with all religions), particularly in the 21st century, is something I have trouble understanding, nor can I respect it in someone who wants to be president for people of all beliefs.

243 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:38:54am

bbl

244 Obdicut  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:39:16am

re: #236 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton

More closely than... at what? Unless you're thinking of a dark horse candidate mute about their views, I don't see how "bad" views won't come out through normal political scrutiny.

I don't really think Romney has been asked many direct questions about the relationship between his faith and how he wants to run government, actually, especially in terms of how much he wants separation of church and state brought down. That's not really a failing related to him, though, more the media in general.

Hrm. I think what I'm getting at is that there's much too large a polite exception made for faith (unless you're a black dude who went to a church with an angry black pastor) in most reasoanble people's minds, where they give people the benefit of the doubt on their ability or desire to separate that faith from the way they govern. I think this is partially because everyone realizes that some stuff that people say is religiously-based is just normal human stuff; like saying your Christian faith inspires you to charity, when charity is just a basic human thing that every culture has come up with.

But I also think that we, in the US, tend to give far too much grace to religious views on the basis of them being religious, and hold them as less criticizeable as 'personal' decisions.

245 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:40:43am

re: #225 Achilles Tang

I think it can be argued that people thousands of years ago were not fraudulent in their beliefs nor,

I don't know what you mean by "fraudulent in their views". Sure followers weren't "fraudulent". Those at the root of the mythology were fraudulent (or crazy). If they weren't, the religions are true. Regardless of whether Jesus was a fraud (he might have been), those who told fancy stories about him, wrote about him, perpetrated at least partial fraud. Same with all other faiths. Somebody somewhere had to make things up at some point. That makes religions rooted in fraud.

if he existed, was Jesus. On the other hand I do think there is very strong evidence that Joseph Smith was a deliberate fraud.

Well, again, so what? How is this different from other religions (see above)?

Needless to say, that does not mean all Mormons are frauds, but I do question how they can follow, in this day, such an obviously human manufactured "religion". I particularly ascribe that to a presidential candidate.

All religions are obviously human manufactured. Do you question Obama's faith?

246 darthstar  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:41:02am

Mornnin' all...you think YOU'VE got stalkers? Look at President Obama.

247 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:41:12am

re: #232 sattv4u2

Exactly!

248 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:41:16am

re: #239 Expand Your Ground

I am certain that we have had several, they just kept their mouths shut about it to avoid a scandal and attended church in order to keep up appearances...

Depends on how tightly you define atheist. There were several deists and certainly Washington was well known for not taking communion though he would attend church on Sundays as a practical matter.

249 Obdicut  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:41:48am

re: #245 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton

It also doesn't really matter if the dude starting the religion was a fraud or a fervent self-believer. It has no impact on the credibility of the religion.

250 Obdicut  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:42:07am

re: #247 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton

Exactly!

Heh. Except that phenomenon doesn't actually occur.

251 Mattand  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:42:57am

re: #240 thedopefishlives

And the sad thing is, even as a devoted Christian, I don't care. As long as a candidate's religion and his/her politics are unrelated to each other, fine.

Yeah, that's the thing for me. If someone is religious, it obviously will inform/affect their views and opinions. That's your thing, fine.

The problem arises when a politician tries to apply certain views on the rest of the population, in violation of the Constitution.

Funny thing is, as much as I don't like Romney's views, he's been relatively quiet on the religious aspect of his life. I'm sure much of that is due to his handlers telling him not to say anything.

Given that his firmware sometimes goes haywire and he puts his foot in his mouth, it won't be long before he does say something dumb about religion.

252 darthstar  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:43:06am

Steve King's head just exploded.

253 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:43:15am

re: #230 Expand Your Ground

I just personally and subjectively find the ones that have sprung up since the Enlightenment to be partculary worthy of criticism.

Well, that's just strange, if we compare the amounts of influence. But whatever.

254 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:44:02am

re: #251 mattand

Given that his firmware sometimes goes haywire and he puts his foot in his mouth, it won't be long before he does say something dumb about religion.

This right here made me laugh.

255 AK-47%  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:44:16am

re: #248 William Barnett-Lewis

Depends on how tightly you define atheist. There were several deists and certainly Washington was well known for not taking communion though he would attend church on Sundays as a practical matter.

That is the wonderful thing about the Enlightenment: it taught us that we cannot know what a person truly believes, we can only guess based on their behavior.

I personally do not think that Ronal Reagan or Bill Clinton, for example, were particularly religious, they just attended church because it was expected of them.

256 Obdicut  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:44:19am

re: #230 Expand Your Ground

I just personally and subjectively find the ones that have sprung up since the Enlightenment to be partculary worthy of criticism.

Why not the ones that have continued past the enlightenment, fighting and resisting it?

257 Mattand  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:45:47am

re: #244 Obdicut

But I also think that we, in the US, tend to give far too much grace to religious views on the basis of them being religious, and hold them as less criticizeable as 'personal' decisions.

As an atheist, would it be hypocritical to say "Amen"?

OT: Obi, did you ever post at Pharyngula? For some reason your nym has always seemed familiar. Then again, I could be having a mini-stroke.

258 AK-47%  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:46:40am

re: #256 Obdicut

Why not the ones that have continued past the enlightenment, fighting and resisting it?

wonderful thing, religion, itis entirely subjective, as its main theme is one that science cannot objectify.

so I will also be subjective in my criticisms of various religions

259 Mattand  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:48:04am

re: #258 Expand Your Ground

wonderful thing, religion, itis entirely subjective, as its main theme is one that science cannot objectify.

so I will also be subjective in my criticisms of various religions

Fucking temple garments, how do they work?

260 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:48:59am

re: #250 Obdicut

Heh. Except that phenomenon doesn't actually occur.

Accumulation of errors does absolutely occur throughout time. Whether it occurs in a room with a bunch of people is another question, less relevant to the topic at hand.

261 darthstar  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:49:38am

re: #258 Expand Your Ground

wonderful thing, religion, itis entirely subjective, as its main theme is one that science cannot objectify.

so I will also be subjective in my criticisms of various religions

Marduk is going to fuck you up if Tiamat doesn't get to you first.

262 Obdicut  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:49:40am

re: #258 Expand Your Ground

wonderful thing, religion, itis entirely subjective, as its main theme is one that science cannot objectify.

No clue what this means. I'm asking you why you look at religions that started post-Enlightenment with a more critical eye than those that started before it, but persisted through it and are now attempting to resist it or roll it back.

263 Obdicut  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:50:43am

re: #260 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton

Accumulation of errors does absolutely occur throughout time. Whether it occurs in a room with a bunch of people is another question, less relevant to the topic at hand.

Of course it occurs through time-- there's a ton of factors at work there. But it's important in general to note that the general belief in message transmission being easily garbled is not true. Partially, because it brings up the topic of intentional change, which is one of the major reasons the religious messages change over time.

264 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:54:33am

There are still people believing in the Twelve Olympians. And no, it's not more laughable than the rest of the ancient religions. Yet I would still expect people to laugh and point at those "stupid" people believing in Zeus and Hera.

265 Obdicut  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:56:10am

re: #264 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton

It's slightly more stupid if you believe that they're physically located on Mount Olympus and you can go and throw a rock at 'em. But no more stupid-- and in some ways, less stupid-- than believing god created the earth 6000 years ago.

Well, I'm assuming you do agree that it's more stupid to believe god created the earth 6000 years ago than god 'started' the universe. Obviously, the latter is still problematic, unproveable, and a completely unnecessary thought, but the former actually contradicts a hell of a lot of stuff, so I find it a lot dumber.

266 Interesting Times  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:57:04am
267 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:57:55am

re: #255 Expand Your Ground

That is the wonderful thing about the Enlightenment: it taught us that we cannot know what a person truly believes, we can only guess based on their behavior.

I personally do not think that Ronal Reagan or Bill Clinton, for example, were particularly religious, they just attended church because it was expected of them.

And that is getting into the phenomena of people/media conflating attendence with belief/faith.

It's actually an intersection of related areas. How much knowledge does the person have of the tenets, rituals, etc. of the religion? Is his outlook on life pious, or more worldly? And how well do his behaviors follow the behaviors that the religion's tenets proclaim they want their members to follow?

Aside: I picked up on this due to those satanic role-playing games. The Arthurian one I play does have character personality traits, religion, and makes it possible to be following the tenets, but not actually be that pious, or necessarily that knowledgable about the rites. Which can be translated in a number of ways; such as being in agreement with the philosophy and tenets of the religion while being in disagreement with the hierarchy that is running the establishment.

268 AK-47%  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:58:55am

re: #262 Obdicut

No clue what this means. I'm asking you why you look at religions that started post-Enlightenment with a more critical eye than those that started before it, but persisted through it and are now attempting to resist it or roll it back.

I do so subjectively. I don't accept any of them, pre- or post-E.

I am just more vehement in rejecting the modern ones.

269 darthstar  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 6:59:18am

re: #264 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton

There are still people believing in the Twelve Olympians. And no, it's not more laughable than the rest of the ancient religions. Yet I would still expect people to laugh and point at those "stupid" people believing in Zeus and Hera.

I'm more of a Roman god lover...Have you ever seen the legs on Minerva? They go up and make a perfect ass of themselves.

270 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:00:21am

re: #267 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

And that is getting into the phenomena of people/media conflating attendence with belief/faith.

It's actually an intersection of related areas. How much knowledge does the person have of the tenets, rituals, etc. of the religion? Is his outlook on life pious, or more worldly? And how well do his behaviors follow the behaviors that the religion's tenets proclaim they want their members to follow?

Aside: I picked up on this due to those satanic role-playing games. The Arthurian one I play does have character personality traits, religion, and makes it possible to be following the tenets, but not actually be that pious, or necessarily that knowledgable about the rites. Which can be translated in a number of ways; such as being in agreement with the philosophy and tenets of the religion while being in disagreement with the hierarchy that is running the establishment.

Gotta be Pendragon. I think I've asked before but 5th edition & the Great Campaign? I'm personally more into Glorantha for discussions on mythology and reality intersecting, but Stafford's written a heck of a lot of interesting materials.

271 AK-47%  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:00:37am

re: #267 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

...such as being in agreement with the philosophy and tenets of the religion while being in disagreement with the hierarchy that is running the establishment.

Or as is the case with 98% of Catholic women, to be in disagreement over contraception but still members of the church.

272 Obdicut  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:00:40am

re: #268 Expand Your Ground

I do so subjectively. I don't accept any of them, pre- or post-E.

I am just more vehement in rejecting the modern ones.

Yes, I get that, but why? What's the difference in a religion founded after the Enlightenment rejecting it, and one founded before it and still rejecting it?

273 AK-47%  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:02:44am

re: #272 Obdicut

Yes, I get that, but why? What's the difference in a religion founded after the Enlightenment rejecting it, and one founded before it and still rejecting it?

They are all bullshit. It's just that to my nose, fresh bullshit smells worse than centuries-old bullshit.

274 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:03:53am

re: #265 Obdicut

It's slightly more stupid if you believe that they're physically located on Mount Olympus and you can go and throw a rock at 'em. But no more stupid-- and in some ways, less stupid-- than believing god created the earth 6000 years ago.

Well, I'm assuming you do agree that it's more stupid to believe god created the earth 6000 years ago than god 'started' the universe. Obviously, the latter is still problematic, unproveable, and a completely unnecessary thought, but the former actually contradicts a hell of a lot of stuff, so I find it a lot dumber.

Yahweh creating the Universe "billions" years ago can be safely classified as a *modern* religion, or a modern understanding of ancient religion. So apples should be compared to apples. I'm sure the modern Greek pagans have their "modern", "advanced" understanding of these things that avoids "obvious" criticisms. (The same holds true for at least some Mormons, whose apologetics is pretty advanced.)

275 darthstar  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:04:11am

re: #273 Expand Your Ground

They are all bullshit. It's just that to my nose, fresh bullshit smells worse than centuries-old bullshit.

Well, it is moister.

276 darthstar  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:05:01am

See you all later. Gotta go talk to a burning bush.

277 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:05:26am

re: #270 William Barnett-Lewis

Gotta be Pendragon. I think I've asked before but 5th edition & the Great Campaign? I'm personally more into Glorantha for discussions on mythology and reality intersecting, but Stafford's written a heck of a lot of interesting materials.

DING!

Yep. I'm playing in a 2+ year-old campaign that started in 3rd/4th edition, but it's running GPC. I am also trying to jump start a 5th Ed campaign at a local game store.

Pendragon became my chosen game system back in the mid-90s when I reached a decision that D&D was little more than a combat engine, did not handle small groups well, and wanted a system with an interesting background that also did social/non-combat interactions. At that time the role-playing my one group of friends did rotated between systems - so I did the Arthurian gig, one friend's wife ran horror games (I think the system was called "Chill"), and another friend did Champions (superheroes).

278 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:06:17am

re: #273 Expand Your Ground

They are all bullshit. It's just that to my nose, fresh bullshit smells worse than centuries-old bullshit.

I'm not sure how you can smell a fresh stinker while being buried under a ton of manure.

279 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:06:48am

re: #271 Expand Your Ground

Or as is the case with 98% of Catholic women, to be in disagreement over contraception but still members of the church.

Well, there's a lot more to the social relationship with a church than just the hierarchy and rites. Especially one well established in a community and with a long running relationship with one's family.

280 Obdicut  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:09:14am

re: #274 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton

Right, but my point is if someone makes a claim like "These white shirts are holy and will stop bullets", if you see the shirts being penetrated by bullets, it takes a lot more fanaticism to still believe that they stop bullets than it does to believe that God wants you to be nice to old ladies because if you are, you'll get an indefinite reward in the afterlife.

Physically disprovable claims are made by the religious, and they are a different category than the ineffable ones. I'd say the earth was created 6000 years ago is one of those.

281 Varek Raith  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:12:09am

We are all descended from pirates.
Yarr, it be a fact!

282 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:12:50am

re: #277 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

DING!

Yep. I'm playing in a 2+ year-old campaign that started in 3rd/4th edition, but it's running GPC. I am also trying to jump start a 5th Ed campaign at a local game store.

Pendragon became my chosen game system back in the mid-90s when I reached a decision that D&D was little more than a combat engine, did not handle small groups well, and wanted a system with an interesting background that also did social/non-combat interactions. At that time the role-playing my one group of friends did rotated between systems - so I did the Arthurian gig, one friend's wife ran horror games (I think the system was called "Chill"), and another friend did Champions (superheroes).

Gotcha. I always loved Traveller for similar reasons. Lots of intrapersonal skills, a small crew on a ship or a team of people having to work together. Mundane things in wondrous places :)

283 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:13:36am

BBL

284 AK-47%  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:14:01am

re: #278 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton

I'm not sure how you can smell a fresh stinker while being buried under a ton of manure.

my nose is subjective

285 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:14:10am

re: #280 Obdicut

Well, yes, and that's one of the examples of why I say that we can verify that ancient religions are false. All of those religions made factual claims (historical, scientific, etc.) that turned out to be wrong. The modern "liberal" religious way to deal with this is to insist on non-literal interpretations. The "conservative" way is to bend facts till they seem to fit the claims.

286 AK-47%  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:15:22am

re: #279 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Well, there's a lot more to the social relationship with a church than just the hierarchy and rites. Especially one well established in a community and with a long running relationship with one's family.

Which about sums up religion and church attendance in Germany. It is mainly seen as a social institution: people belong to a church because it is where they get baptized, married, and sent off to the cemetery...

287 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:15:37am

re: #285 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton

Well, yes, and that's one of the examples of why I say that we can verify that ancient religions are false. All of those religions made factual claims (historical, scientific, etc.) that turned out to be wrong. The modern "liberal" religious way to deal with this is to insist on non-literal interpretations. The "conservative" way is to bend facts till they seem to fit the claims.

Sounds like two different attempted methods to work with reality. One is to adjust with the flow, the other is to dam the river and canalize it to run where you want it to.

288 makeitstop  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:16:14am

re: #222 Learned Mother of Zion

[Embedded content]

Youtube Video
289 Varek Raith  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:16:19am

BREAKING: Obama To Stop Deporting DREAM-Eligible Youth, Protecting 1 Million Undocumented Students
OUTRAGEOUS OUTRAGE!!!

290 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:17:23am

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts and prayers. Still trying to come to grips with the latest news (on top of everything else). Guess the only way to deal with it is to try and be positive - and to proselytize to anyone who will be in earshot to get themselves screened regularly.

If you're a woman, that means going for regular mammograms.
For men, prostate and testicular cancer screenings.

For everyone, check for skin cancer (which is the most common cancer there is with more than 2 million cases diagnosed annually but which has very high cure/remission rate). Skin cancer cases exceed the number of pretty much every other form of cancer combined.

It's a pain in the ass to go for regular screenings, but you know what's a bigger pain in the ass - waiting too long and finding out that you not only have a cancer, but that the docs have limited or no options. Early diagnoses can vastly increase chances of remission. The treatments might suck - and those are much improved from just a few years ago - but they're better than being dead (and leaving friends and families without their loved one).

291 Varek Raith  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:19:20am

Fuck you cancer.
Fuck.
You.

292 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:24:01am

re: #287 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Sounds like two different attempted methods to work with reality. One is to adjust with the flow, the other is to dam the river and canalize it to run where you want it to.

Yes. Which is why religion-as-such is a secondary matter, it's approach to religion that matters. There are a lot of Mormons who choose the "liberal" path vis-a-vis their faith. In fact, let's not forget that LDS is not the only Mormon Church out there. RLDS outright rejected some of the stuff JS claimed to be scriptures, and their stance on BoM is quite "liberal":

In 2001, Community of Christ President W. Grant McMurray reflected on increasing questions about the Book of Mormon: "The proper use of the Book of Mormon as sacred scripture has been under wide discussion in the 1970s and beyond, in part because of long-standing questions about its historicity and in part because of perceived theological inadequacies, including matters of race and ethnicity."[42] In the introduction he qualified his statements: "I cannot speak for each person within our community, but perhaps I can say some words on behalf of our community."
At the 2007 Community of Christ World Conference, President Stephen M. Veazey ruled on a resolution to "reaffirm the Book of Mormon as a divinely inspired record" out of order. In so doing he stated that "while the Church affirms the Book of Mormon as scripture, and makes it available for study and use in various languages, we do not attempt to mandate the degree of belief or use. This position is in keeping with our longstanding tradition that belief in the Book of Mormon is not to be used as a test of fellowship or membership in the church."[43]

Some LDS members hold similarly "liberal" views about the Church scripture, yet identify as Mormons.

293 Varek Raith  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:29:17am

House GOP to Hold Hearings on Its Hearings on Muslim Radicals in the US

After spending the last year and a half holding hearings on "radicalization" within the American Muslim community, House Homeland Security Committee Chairman Peter King (R-N.Y.) is preparing to hold hearings on his hearings.

On Wednesday afternoon, King announced his latest meta-hearing, titled "The American Muslim Response to Hearings on Radicalization Within Their Community." It's scheduled for June 20. What's next? A hearing on the Muslim community's response to the hearing on the earlier hearings?

Oh for the love of...

294 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:30:16am

re: #292 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton

You can also start delving into some of the other "liberal" faiths such as UU. Their openness appears to drive some other groups crazy.

295 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:31:27am

re: #289 Varek Raith

BREAKING: Obama To Stop Deporting DREAM-Eligible Youth, Protecting 1 Million Undocumented Students
OUTRAGEOUS OUTRAGE!!!

Good. And we need to pass the Dream Act which sure as hell won't happen with Romney in office.

296 AK-47%  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:36:49am

Off to the Rhine with kiddies for BBQ

297 Varek Raith  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:37:35am

re: #296 Expand Your Ground

Off to the Rhine with kiddies for BBQ

DON'T BBQ THE KIDS!
:P

298 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:37:46am

re: #296 Expand Your Ground

Off to the Rhine with kiddies for BBQ

How well do the Germans do BBQ?

300 Varek Raith  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:39:35am

re: #299 Gus

Oh jeez...

Look at the image Drudge is using to report this.

No flashing lights?
I am disappoint.

301 Interesting Times  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:41:16am
302 abolitionist  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:41:53am

re: #289 Varek Raith

BREAKING: Obama To Stop Deporting DREAM-Eligible Youth, Protecting 1 Million Undocumented Students
OUTRAGEOUS OUTRAGE!!!


Update: Jun 15, 10:22 AM EDT
AP sources: Immunity offered to certain immigrants
Excerpt:

The policy change, described to The Associated Press by two senior administration officials, will affect as many as 800,000 immigrants who have lived in fear of deportation. It also bypasses Congress and partially achieves the goals of the so-called DREAM Act, a long-sought but never enacted plan to establish a path toward citizenship for young people who came to the United States illegally but who have attended college or served in the military.

In the TV series Scandal --involving a fictional contemporary Republican President --one of the minor plot elements was about passage of the Dream Act, with a somewhat coerced deciding vote by the VP.

303 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:42:00am

re: #299 Gus

Oh jeez...

Look at the image Drudge is using to report this.

Drudge will be Drudge.

304 Varek Raith  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:42:11am

HAHAHAHA
[Link: www.google.com...]

305 Varek Raith  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:43:51am

Irony is iron. And y. And well...

306 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:45:01am

re: #305 Varek Raith

Irony is iron. And y. And well...

Oooh rich liberals. Now who hates rich people.

307 Gus  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:45:45am

re: #304 Varek Raith

HAHAHAHA
[Link: www.google.com...]

Too early in the morning for Breitbart scum.

308 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:49:29am

re: #305 Varek Raith

Irony is iron. And y. And well...

Ron Paul calls for irony to be replaced with goldy.

309 makeitstop  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 7:52:20am

re: #304 Varek Raith

HAHAHAHA
[Link: www.google.com...]

Wow, they're getting the Fail out of the way early today. They must want to head for the beach this afternoon.

310 Gus  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:01:28am

I imagine the right-wing freakout is at about eleventy twentyty by now.

311 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:02:30am

So, Obama comes to NYC last night and hauls in a couple of million dollars. GOP complains, even as Romney and the GOP get $10 million at a shot from Sheldon Adelson, who has pledged up to $100 million to help the GOP win in November.

Pot. Meet kettle.

Doesn't listening to one person (like Adelson) warrant as much or more scrutiny than listening to a far larger group of people? After all, Adelson isn't an elected figure, but he wants to have his say on policy and throwing money at the GOP is his way of doing so.

Elections require money - lots of it. Romney seems to have no problem getting super donors (or bundlers who they aren't exactly spilling the beans to say who they are and how much they're taking in) and is getting a smaller percentage of his donations from small sources. Obama is getting a greater percentage of his donations from smaller sources than these big haul events.

312 CuriousLurker  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:02:51am

re: #290 lawhawk

I'm sorry to hear about your friend's diagnosis. Sending good thoughts & prayers that s/he'll beat this awful disease.

BBL

313 Gus  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:08:13am

So it begins...

Smith: Obama Immigration Policy ‘Blatantly Ignores The Rule Of Law’

314 makeitstop  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:11:58am

re: #311 lawhawk

So, Obama comes to NYC last night and hauls in a couple of million dollars. GOP complains, even as Romney and the GOP get $10 million at a shot from Sheldon Adelson, who has pledged up to $100 million to help the GOP win in November.

Pot. Meet kettle.

Doesn't listening to one person (like Adelson) warrant as much or more scrutiny than listening to a far larger group of people? After all, Adelson isn't an elected figure, but he wants to have his say on policy and throwing money at the GOP is his way of doing so.

Elections require money - lots of it. Romney seems to have no problem getting super donors (or bundlers who they aren't exactly spilling the beans to say who they are and how much they're taking in) and is getting a smaller percentage of his donations from small sources. Obama is getting a greater percentage of his donations from smaller sources than these big haul events.

The Adelson situation is a very scary one to me. A $100 million donation would equate to Adelson owning Rmoney lock, stock and presidential pen.

And someone raised a very valid question yesterday - Rmoney's Mormon faith has been vociferously opposed to gambling of any sort. How does Mitt reconcile taking a hundred mil from a guy who has made billions off of gambling?

(I know he's got deniability because the money would be going to a SuperPAC, but still. The thing that frustrates me most about the whole situation is that he'll probably never even be asked about it.)

315 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:13:08am

I just got done reading about Truman's 1948 reelection campaign. There are some interesting parallels ("do nothing" GOP Congress, GOP candidate who many people see as flat and almost mechanical), but also a number of ways in which things are totally dissimilar.

316 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:13:26am

I just saw what Charles posted on the Adelson article below that for Rick Adelson giving 100 million dollars is like the average American family giving 350. That just boggles my mind how crazy that is.

317 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:14:13am

Oh joy... another rash of anti-Semitic graffiti incidents in Brooklyn. Swastikas spray painted in 5 locations in Borough Park (home to a very large Orthodox Jewish population).

318 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:14:22am

re: #315 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

I just got done reading about Truman's 1948 reelection campaign. There are some interesting parallels ("do nothing" GOP Congress, GOP candidate who many people see as flat and almost mechanical), but also a number of ways in which things are totally dissimilar.

Yeah Thomas Dewey would have made a good president, and this is coming from someone who loves HST.

319 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:14:43am

re: #316 HappyWarrior

I just saw what Charles posted on the Adelson article below that for Rick Adelson giving 100 million dollars is like the average American family giving 350. That just boggles my mind how crazy that is.

But you also know that the average American family donating $350 to either campaign or associated SuperPac is not going to result in anywhere near the same amount of "access" post-election.

320 Gus  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:15:05am

McCain: Adelson Bringing ‘Foreign Money’ Into U.S. Campaign

Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) told PBS’ News Hour that billionaire conservative casino mogul Sheldon Adelson’s big donations are introducing “foreign money” into the presidential race.

Adelson has been by far the largest public donor to outside spending groups this cycle. He helped prop up Newt Gingrich’s primary campaign and, just this week, The Wall Street Journal reported that Adelson had decided to give $10 million to Restore Our Future, a pro-Mitt Romney super PAC.
Read More →

321 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:16:47am

re: #319 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

But you also know that the average American family donating $350 to either campaign or associated SuperPac is not going to result in anywhere near the same amount of "access" post-election.

Right, I guess what struck me is how 100 million to Adelson is basically what I make in around a month's time at the history magazine I intern for. Guess that's why I have to laugh at those who act like the rich have it tough in this country under Obama- yeah fuckin' right.

322 makeitstop  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:21:35am

re: #316 HappyWarrior

I just saw what Charles posted on the Adelson article below that for Rick Adelson giving 100 million dollars is like the average American family giving 350. That just boggles my mind how crazy that is.

Sheldon Adelson. Rick is an NBA coach, and I doubt he's worth $26 billion. :)

323 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:21:48am

re: #318 HappyWarrior

Yeah Thomas Dewey would have made a good president, and this is coming from someone who loves HST.

Though the question arises whether Dewey would have made a stand against his own party regarding progressive measures, equal rights, etc. The senior Taft came in after Teddy under the general assumption he would be a progressive and continue pushing what Roosevelt had started and quickly caved to the more conservative pro-business elements.

Taft to a certain extent indicates the point that the GOP started the slide down the rabbit hole.

And Truman started the break between the Democratic Party and the segregationists in the South. Part of what made 1948 so interesting as an election is that the Democrats had actually split 3-ways; Thurmond and the segregationalists, Wallace and the more extreme liberals, and Truman sort of in the middle as a progressive trying to continue the New Deal policies plus additional changes he thought was proper. The GOP and media pretty much considered the election in the bag for Dewey from the get-go.

324 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:22:35am

re: #322 makeitstop

Sheldon Adelson. Rick is an NBA coach, and I doubt he's worth $26 billion. :)

Haha thanks for the catch.

325 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:23:56am

Holy fucking crap:

326 makeitstop  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:24:01am

re: #324 HappyWarrior

Haha thanks for the catch.

NBA on the brain, eh?

That was some game last night. Durant playing the entire fourth with 5 fouls - and almost stealing the game - was amazing.

Anything that makes Pat Riley sweat is fine by me.

327 Interesting Times  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:24:23am
328 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:25:25am

re: #323 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Though the question arises whether Dewey would have made a stand against his own party regarding progressive measures, equal rights, etc. The senior Taft came in after Teddy under the general assumption he would be a progressive and continue pushing what Roosevelt had started and quickly caved to the more conservative pro-business elements.

Taft to a certain extent indicates the point that the GOP started the slide down the rabbit hole.

And Truman started the break between the Democratic Party and the segregationists in the South. Part of what made 1948 so interesting as an election is that the Democrats had actually split 3-ways; Thurmond and the segregationalists, Wallace and the more extreme liberals, and Truman sort of in the middle as a progressive trying to continue the New Deal policies plus additional changes he thought was proper. The GOP and media pretty much considered the election in the bag for Dewey from the get-go.

True that's a good point. I think Dewey would have made a stand on social domestic policy i.e. civil rights but he would have had a harder time containing the anti-New Deal elements. He's an interesting guy. One of my professors wrote a biography on him. I really would like to learn more about him really. I think he's the only man to run for president twice before he turned 50 years old. And yeah Truman pissed off the segregationists when he decided to desegregate the military.

329 Gus  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:25:54am

re: #325 Learned Mother of Zion

Holy fucking crap:

[Embedded content]

He'll probably have to get his mother's permission to leave the house first.

//

330 Kronocide  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:26:07am

Romney 2012: Honk for the Honkey

331 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:26:22am

re: #326 makeitstop

NBA on the brain, eh?

That was some game last night. Durant playing the entire fourth with 5 fouls - and almost stealing the game - was amazing.

Anything that makes Pat Riley sweat is fine by me.

Yep, watched a cool documentary about Magic and Larry last week and I've been following the finals and rooting for Durant and the Thunder.

332 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:27:34am

Ya know these cries that he's ignoring the Constitution wouldn't be laughable to me if these weren't the same people who like to joke about torture and water-boarding. No dice Fox news, no dice. Oh and the fact that their political saint, one Mr. Reagan gave amnesty to all illegal immigrants in the 80's. But Obama's ruining our way of life!

333 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:28:13am

A commenter from Dangerous Minds,

Jamois • 15 hours ago
The bulk of it may be bonkers, but I think she's on to something, suggesting that we "change the ness." Very Robert Anton Wilson. I'm going to start changing my ness right now. Fnord.

Fnord indeed!

334 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:31:09am

re: #328 HappyWarrior

True that's a good point. I think Dewey would have made a stand on social domestic policy i.e. civil rights but he would have had a harder time containing the anti-New Deal elements. He's an interesting guy. One of my professors wrote a biography on him. I really would like to learn more about him really. I think he's the only man to run for president twice before he turned 50 years old. And yeah Truman pissed off the segregationists when he decided to desegregate the military.

Was more than just the military. A few southern state delegations walked during the 1948 Democratic Convention due to a stronger civil rights plank being put in. (Though that wasn't Truman's doing as much as the liberal side of the party.)

Truman on civil rights is a bit like Lincoln. You get the anecdotes and observations that by today's standard he was a bigot. And Truman probably did not view them as social equals. But he definitely and solidly believed that they deserved equal status and protection under the law. And fair treatment as people.

335 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:33:36am

re: #334 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Was more than just the military. A few southern state delegations walked during the 1948 Democratic Convention due to a stronger civil rights plank being put in. (Though that wasn't Truman's doing as much as the liberal side of the party.)

Truman on civil rights is a bit like Lincoln. You get the anecdotes and observations that by today's standard he was a bigot. And Truman probably did not view them as social equals. But he definitely and solidly believed that they deserved equal status and protection under the law. And fair treatment as people.

Humphrey had a role in that hence my user name. I really like that analogy to Lincoln actually. From what I read what horrified him was reading about black soldiers being lynched after coming home from serving in WWII. His relationship with the Jewish people seems similar to me though the influence with that was more personal than his with the blacks due to his good war time friend and later business partner, Eddie Jacobson.

336 makeitstop  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:35:21am

re: #331 HappyWarrior

Yep, watched a cool documentary about Magic and Larry last week and I've been following the finals and rooting for Durant and the Thunder.

Gotta root for that kid. He seems like one of the most humble players in the league, and he never, ever quits.

I know it's fashionable to knock OKC's ownership for 'stealing' the Sonics, but that team is so easy to pull for.

And I root for the teams, not the owners, anyway.

337 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:36:13am

Since we're dealing with humor here, I just got this email from my ex-wife....

This was posted to a technical writing e-mail list that I subscribe to, and made me laugh out loud...

*****

A helicopter was flying around above Seattle when an electrical malfunction
disabled all of the aircraft’s electronic navigation and communications
equipment. Due to the clouds and haze, the pilot could not determine the
helicopter’s position and course to fly to the airport. The pilot saw a tall
building, flew toward it, circled, drew a handwritten sign, and held it up in
the window. The sign read ‘WHERE AM I?’ in large letters. People in the tall
building drew a sign of their own, and held it in one of their own windows.
Their sign read: ‘YOU ARE IN A HELICOPTER.’

The pilot smiled, waved, set a course for SEATAC airport, and landed safely.
Once on the ground, the ground crew hearing the pilot’s story asked him how he determined position. The pilot responded: “I knew that had to be the Microsoft tech support building in Redmond. The response they gave me was technically correct, but completely useless.”

338 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:39:10am

re: #336 makeitstop

Gotta root for that kid. He seems like one of the most humble players in the league, and he never, ever quits.

I know it's fashionable to knock OKC's ownership for 'stealing' the Sonics, but that team is so easy to pull for.

And I root for the teams, not the owners, anyway.

Yeah, I thought they were done when they fell behind the Spurs 2-0 but they came back and won four straight. I like the kid because he's a local kid and as said humble and hard working. I don't hate Lebron honestly but if my team's not in it, I root for a team built from scratch rather than a team like the Heat that just had one guy Dwayne Wade inviting his buds Lebron and Chris Bosh to join him. It's perfectly legal of course but that doesn't mean I have to root for them.

339 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:42:41am

re: #335 HappyWarrior

Another reason I am drawing parallels between Truman and Lincoln is that they were both brilliant political operators when it came down to it that used a folksy facade at times to cover it. Both also had a very strong belief in doing what was right for the country regardless of the personal political cost.

As a good example on Truman's part:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Tempting as it would be to see Obama try something like this I don't expect it to happen.

340 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:48:21am

re: #339 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Another reason I am drawing parallels between Truman and Lincoln is that they were both brilliant political operators when it came down to it that used a folksy facade at times to cover it. Both also had a very strong belief in doing what was right for the country regardless of the personal political cost.

As a good example on Truman's part:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Tempting as it would be to see Obama try something like this I don't expect it to happen.

I don't either which is unfortunate. I really think Obama needs to take a page from Harry's playbook and call out this Congress out for what it is. Though the fact that he had only 36% approval in late July and still managed to win a fairly convincing win gives me optimism that Obama can beat Romney by a similar if not greater margin.

341 wrenchwench  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:53:41am

re: #314 makeitstop

The Adelson situation is a very scary one to me. A $100 million donation would equate to Adelson owning Rmoney lock, stock and presidential pen.

If Adelson's money had a totally scary amount of power, Gingrich would be the nominee. If Adelson can't buy the Republicans, he probably can't buy the independents and Democrats.

/today's brighter outlook

342 Varek Raith  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:55:06am

re: #337 Eclectic Infidel

Since we're dealing with humor here, I just got this email from my ex-wife...

Is your helicopter plugged in?

343 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:56:25am

re: #341 wrenchwench

If Adelson's money had a totally scary amount of power, Gingrich would be the nominee. If Adelson can't buy the Republicans, he probably can't buy the independents and Democrats.

/today's brighter outlook

True point.

344 Gus  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:56:31am

Burn!

345 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:57:43am

Romney will probably respond with some condescending comment about how McCain doesn't understand business and he (Romney) does.

346 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 8:58:01am

re: #341 wrenchwench

It gave Gingrich lasting power that he wouldn't have otherwise had. That, in turn, meant that Mitt had to run a longer primary campaign than he probably wanted and reduced his cash on hand to go after Obama from an even earlier date. Now, he's relying on the same Adelson to help fund his operations via the SuperPAC in the general election.

Not exactly the best investment on Adelson's part (raising questions as to just what he saw in Newt to begin with or why he didn't think to invest it in Romney to start with - and thereby bring an even earlier end to the primaries so that they could all focus on the general election). Some of that is likely due to the lukewarm support by most GOPers towards Mitt and that the GOP is going on the ABO rule (anyone but Obama).

347 wrenchwench  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:04:46am

re: #346 lawhawk

It gave Gingrich lasting power that he wouldn't have otherwise had. That, in turn, meant that Mitt had to run a longer primary campaign than he probably wanted and reduced his cash on hand to go after Obama from an even earlier date. Now, he's relying on the same Adelson to help fund his operations via the SuperPAC in the general election.

Not exactly the best investment on Adelson's part(raising questions as to just what he saw in Newt to begin with or why he didn't think to invest it in Romney to start with - and thereby bring an even earlier end to the primaries so that they could all focus on the general election). Some of that is likely due to the lukewarm support by most GOPers towards Mitt and that the GOP is going on the ABO rule (anyone but Obama).

Thanks for the cogent analysis. Did Adelson create an Adelson-dependency by funding Newt first?

348 Kronocide  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:06:44am

If corporations are people they should be taxed at the maximum personal income tax rate. And confined to campaign donation law for private citizens.

349 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:08:25am

re: #276 darthstar

See you all later. Gotta go talk to a burning bush.

Take hotdogs.

350 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:12:27am

re: #255 Expand Your Ground

That is the wonderful thing about the Enlightenment: it taught us that we cannot know what a person truly believes, we can only guess based on their behavior.

I personally do not think that Ronal Reagan or Bill Clinton, for example, were particularly religious, they just attended church because it was expected of them.

IIRC, Reagan wasn't a churchgoer, except for special occasions.

351 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:13:29am

re: #245 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton

I don't know what you mean by "fraudulent in their views". Sure followers weren't "fraudulent". Those at the root of the mythology were fraudulent (or crazy). If they weren't, the religions are true. Regardless of whether Jesus was a fraud (he might have been), those who told fancy stories about him, wrote about him, perpetrated at least partial fraud. Same with all other faiths. Somebody somewhere had to make things up at some point. That makes religions rooted in fraud.

I think you first used the word fraud. In my vocabulary fraud means being knowingly deceptive or wrong. Not many centuries ago deities were the most logical possible explanation for the unknown. I don't think the basic concept was fraudulently conceived. Execution is another matter.

All religions are obviously human manufactured. Do you question Obama's faith?

I question the faith of many presidents, but I know that they would never have become president had they themselves done so publicly.

352 erik_t  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:14:01am

re: #336 makeitstop

Gotta root for that kid. He seems like one of the most humble players in the league, and he never, ever quits.

I know it's fashionable to knock OKC's ownership for 'stealing' the Sonics, but that team is so easy to pull for.

And I root for the teams, not the owners, anyway.

I would sooner claw out my eyes and insert horseradish-coated burning coals than root for that team. My PNW childhood may have something to do with that.

353 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:18:06am

re: #346 lawhawk

Not exactly the best investment on Adelson's part (raising questions as to just what he saw in Newt to begin with or why he didn't think to invest it in Romney to start with - and thereby bring an even earlier end to the primaries so that they could all focus on the general election).

Just because he has become very very rich off some casino investments doesn't mean he is very very smart.

354 lawhawk  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:25:03am

re: #353 Achilles Tang

Business acumen doesn't always equate with political acumen and vice versa.

355 makeitstop  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:25:21am

re: #341 wrenchwench

If Adelson's money had a totally scary amount of power, Gingrich would be the nominee. If Adelson can't buy the Republicans, he probably can't buy the independents and Democrats.

/today's brighter outlook

Good point! But...

Gingrich spent Adelson's money in very odd ways. During the primaries, I'd hear radio ads for Newtie on the news radio stations in New York City - a place where he had a snowball's chance in hell of winning anything. I remember wondering why he'd bother making buys on the local NYC stations instead of actually buying ads where he would have stood a chance to actually win a primary.

The SuperPAC that will be getting Adelson's money will be spending it in much more useful ways, I'm sure - unless they're completely inept. Prime-time ad buys on the networks will have a lot more impact than radio spots on niche stations.

But that might just be me fearing the worst again.

356 erik_t  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:27:12am

re: #355 makeitstop

The SuperPAC that will be getting Adelson's money will be spending it in much more useful ways, I'm sure - unless they're completely inept. Prime-time ad buys on the networks will have a lot more impact than radio spots on niche stations.

If there's one word I don't associate with Mitt Romney's campaign, it's inept.

/^inf

357 Varek Raith  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:33:00am

Image: Tornoe-20120614-Rove.jpg

358 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:37:53am

Report: Turkey investigating IHH head for funding al-Qaida

Turkish legal authorities are investigating allegations that one of the key figures behind the May 2010 Gaza flotilla, Bülent Yıldırım, was involved in transferring funds to al-Qaida, Turkish daily Habertürk reported on Friday.

Bülent Yıldırım is the president of the IHH, a Turkish charity that was one of the main planners of the Gaza flotilla, widely considered a terrorist organization by a number of bodies - including the Israeli government. The IHH has been accused of maintaining ties with a number of terror organizations.

According to the report, Yildirim has been under investigation for secretly “providing financial aid to al-Qaida via his foundation” by special prosecutors in both Istranbul and Diyarbakır.

359 wrenchwench  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:40:12am

re: #355 makeitstop

Good point! But...

Gingrich spent Adelson's money in very odd ways. During the primaries, I'd hear radio ads for Newtie on the news radio stations in New York City - a place where he had a snowball's chance in hell of winning anything. I remember wondering why he'd bother making buys on the local NYC stations instead of actually buying ads where he would have stood a chance to actually win a primary.

The SuperPAC that will be getting Adelson's money will be spending it in much more useful ways, I'm sure - unless they're completely inept. Prime-time ad buys on the networks will have a lot more impact than radio spots on niche stations.

But that might just be me fearing the worst again.

Fearing the worst can be good, if it motivates avoidance tactics.

Voter suppression maneuvers are what worry me.

360 wrenchwench  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:45:11am

Romney has an official Bus Tour Twitter account, which has a parody already.

361 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:46:43am

Good morning fellow Lizards, Happy Friday.

362 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:48:42am

Lawmakers Want Justification for Signature Drone Strikes

Democrat Dennis Kucinich organized the letter, which also includes Republicans Walter Jones and Ron Paul.

We know that there are Office of Legal Counsel memos on the legitimacy of targeting individuals, including US citizens like Anwar al-Awlaki, for assassination. But so far, we do not have any record of OLC memos for signature strikes in places like Pakistan or Yemen. Lawmakers have not even been able to obtain the OLC memos supporting the drone program, according to Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse. Whitehouse told Majority Report Radio’s Sam Seder that “to the extent that’s happening (a request for the documents), it would come out of the Intelligence and Armed Services leadership.”

Ron Paul!

363 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:48:45am

re: #352 erik_t

I would sooner claw out my eyes and insert horseradish-coated burning coals than root for that team. My PNW childhood may have something to do with that.

Save the burning coals for the planked salmon. No NBA team is worth that.

364 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:50:37am

re: #358 Killgore Trout

Report: Turkey investigating IHH head for funding al-Qaida

Really? Hypocrisy much, Turkey? The same country that plays kiss kiss with Hamas leadership....

365 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:51:55am

re: #364 Eclectic Infidel

Really? Hypocrisy much, Turkey? The same country that plays kiss kiss with Hamas leadership...

I suspect the key difference is that Hamas poses no potential threat to Turkey. Al Qaeda is a different story.

366 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:52:10am

Have I told how how disgusted I am lately?

Even more now.

How are you today?

367 jc717  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:52:34am

re: #12 Charles Johnson

Wherever a wingnut feels like someone has outsmarted them, I am there.

Wherever a wingnut feels persecuted by a sekrit conspiracy, I am there.

I am everywhere.

You need your own card in the next edition of Illuminati ;)
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

368 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:53:37am

re: #365 Killgore Trout

I suspect the key difference is that Hamas poses no potential threat to Turkey. Al Qaeda is a different story.

A noteworthy point.

369 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:54:58am

re: #366 ggt

Have I told how how disgusted I am lately?

Even more now.

How are you today?

Fed at this current point. Got a nice gyro from the Med place in a food court a couple of blocks away.

Otherwise just trying to keep ahead of security requests and asking managers for further details regarding said requests.

Weekend plans remain fluid at this point. Though a day trip with the nice weather being favored over staying in and doing a much needed sorting of the closet and file cabinet.

370 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:59:59am

Romney Campaign T-Shirts: We'll be doing fine again when Mitt is in office

LOL

371 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 10:01:20am

On a better note --MY MIGRAINE IS FINALLY GONE.

I am wiped out, but pain free.

Life is much better today.

372 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 10:03:53am

re: #370 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

Romney Campaign T-Shirts: We'll be doing fine again when Mitt is in office

LOL

Heh next you'll tell me their bus will honk at Obama supporters going to see the president speak. Oh wait.

373 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 10:05:03am

Some A-hole on fb just posted that "women in America have a pretty good deal". You know, compared to Afghanistan.

Yes, I used the f-word in my response.

374 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 10:06:23am

Hmm, I just realized that the Romneybot prototype was Edward Scissorhands. All hair and trees easily adjusted to the right height.
;)

375 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 10:07:20am

re: #373 ggt

Some A-hole on fb just posted that "women in America have a pretty good deal". You know, compared to Afghanistan.

Yes, I used the f-word in my response.

And you're voting Obama to keep it that way...

376 Kragar  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 10:07:57am

Marriage equality just as bad as 9/11 and Katerina

Southern Baptist preacher Dwight McKissic, who has described the gay rights movement as “satanic” and even asserted that the Antichrist will be gay, was so distraught over President Obama’s endorsement of marriage equality that he likened it to the September 11 terrorist attacks and Hurricane Katrina:

377 HappyWarrior  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 10:11:26am

re: #376 Kragar

Marriage equality just as bad as 9/11 and Katerina

Perspective Dwight MicKissic has none.

378 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 10:38:35am

re: #376 Kragar

Oy vay iz mir. Again I wonder, "Why aren't these people receiving professional mental help?"

379 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Jun 15, 2012 10:40:32am

re: #376 Kragar

Marriage equality just as bad as 9/11 and Katerina

I beg to differ. The anti-christ will be a preacher.


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