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364 comments

1 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 6:27:36pm

Golden Spider Duck.

2 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 6:34:10pm

Irish Father's Day.

3 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 6:39:20pm

Warning: it's a little bleak.

4 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 6:40:06pm

re: #3 Charles Johnson

Well, I take the point of view that, hey, at least I'm not those two poor fuckers.

5 Kragar  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 6:50:45pm

re: #1 Obdicut

Golden Spider Duck.

CROW!!!

6 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 6:54:09pm

re: #3 Charles Johnson

Warning: it's a little bleak.

I found it heartwarming.

7 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 6:54:27pm

re: #5 Kragar

CROW!!!

"'Breach hull, all die!' Even had it underlined!"

8 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 6:55:51pm

Dialogue is good too.

9 Kragar  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 6:56:52pm

re: #7 Targetpractice

"'Breach hull, all die!' Even had it underlined!"

"Who is this average looking man god?"
"She called you a crimson pig Mike... HEY!"
"She thinks I'm average looking." (wink)

10 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 7:02:00pm

No subtitles?

11 Kragar  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 7:03:55pm

MST3k - The Horror of Party Beach

12 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 7:12:22pm

re: #9 Kragar

"Who is this average looking man god?"
"She called you a crimson pig Mike... HEY!"
"She thinks I'm average looking." (wink)

Mike: "I just asked them to take care of a little problem!"
Crow: "And they did! Here comes Mike, Destroyer of Worlds!"
Servo: "Oh, god of fire and vengeance — get away from me, you knob!"

13 Kragar  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 7:13:49pm

re: #12 Targetpractice

Mike: "I just asked them to take care of a little problem!"
Crow: "And they did! Here comes Mike, Destroyer of Worlds!"
Servo: "Oh, god of fire and vengeance — get away from me, you knob!"

MST3k 808 - The She-Creature

14 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 7:15:53pm

re: #13 Kragar

MST3k 808 - The She-Creature

[Embedded content]

I don't need to see any Pam Geller or Sarah Palin vids, thank you very much.

//

15 Kragar  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 7:19:40pm

And of course, Beastie Boys - Body Movin

with MST3K - Diabolik

16 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 7:20:00pm

"Put your helmet on, we'll be reaching speeds of *three*!"

17 Kragar  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 7:22:02pm

re: #16 Targetpractice

"Put your helmet on, we'll be reaching speeds of *three*!"

Space Mutiny

18 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 7:33:40pm

re: #3 Charles Johnson

Warning: it's a little bleak.

A LITTLE????

19 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 7:34:10pm

Testing... Upper is URL from indiv. tweet, lower is embed code.

[Link: twitter.com...]

Hmm. Fail in preview, just a link


20 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 7:35:36pm

re: #19 Daniel Ballard

Testing... Upper is URL from indiv. tweet, lower is embed code.

[Link: twitter.com...]

Hmm. Fail in preview, just a link

[Embedded content]

Gorgeous!

21 BenghaziHoops  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 7:36:26pm

Happy Monday Evening Lizards...
I say we put on a theatrical production on Puns..
It could be a play on words..

22 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 7:38:22pm

re: #19 Daniel Ballard

You need a front view! I need flowers, after that video!

23 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 7:38:59pm

re: #19 Daniel Ballard

The easiest way to get the individual tweet URL is to right-click the timestamp at upper right of the tweet.

24 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 7:42:40pm

Aha! Thanks again Charles.

25 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 7:43:27pm

It should look something like this:

h t t p s : / / twitter.com/RW_Conspirator/statuses/214907596950347777

26 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 7:48:45pm

re: #22 Dancing along the light of day

That's our best bloom right now. That spindly little guy was a challenge to get at all. Photo geeks will appreciate this- 105mm x 1.6... 168 mm effective focal length on my camera and only 12" distance. F8 on a tripod for the .4 second exposure. The flower is about 1/4" tall.

27 SidewaysQuark  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 7:51:27pm

Just wanted to mention, Charles, thanks for putting up a good site where I finally feel politically at home, and where a whole new group of people can get pissed off at my contrarian posts. [snark, snark]

28 Kragar  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 7:56:49pm

BREAKING: Obama Would Veto Pro-Mercury Pollution Resolution

The White House has threatened to veto a Congressional Review Act repeal of the Mercury and Air Toxics Standards, if S.J. Res. 37 is presented to President Obama. Today, the Executive Office of the President released a statement disapproving of Sen. Inhofe’s (R-OK) resolution that would prevent the EPA from limiting mercury and other air toxins from power plants. Inhofe’s bill would block the Mercury and Air Toxics Standards that protect children, seniors, the infirm, and everyone else from air pollutants from air pollution such as mercury and arsenic that are emitted from coal-burning power plants. The standards “will prevent as many as 11,000 avoidable premature deaths and 4,700 heart attacks, annually. The annual value of these health benefits alone is estimated to be as much as $90 billion.” The veto threat makes it easier for moderate Democrats and Republicans to oppose Inhofe’s resolution because they can argue that S.J. Res 37 will never become law, so its futile debate and vote on it.

29 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 7:59:11pm

re: #28 Kragar

BREAKING: Obama Would Veto Pro-Mercury Pollution Resolution

So what if it'll kill thousands, it'll create jobs!

30 Kragar  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:00:26pm

re: #29 Targetpractice

The funereal business is jobs too.

31 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:01:16pm

re: #30 Kragar

The funereal business is jobs too.

And it decreases the surplus population!

32 dragonath  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:04:52pm

re: #17 Kragar

33 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:07:04pm

re: #31 Targetpractice

And everybody thought the Mad Hatter was funny and clever, right? Who wouldn't more people with heavy-metal brain damage around--they hold crazy tea parties and hang out with cute fuzzy animals!

34 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:17:54pm

So Zimmernan's lawyer's defense will be that Zimmerman's credibility shouldn't be an issue?

"Don’t forget that his credibility is of some relevance but much more important are the facts of the case," said O'Mara. "So if we have forensic facts, if we have eyewitness or ear-witness facts, if we have injuries that were sustained and what they mean, those are the facts that a jury should really look at. They may never need to get to the point of George’s credibility because the facts themselves may speak loud enough to give the true signal."

I'm thinking maybe he should re-think his strategy a bit.

[Link: usnews.msnbc.msn.com...]

35 jaunte  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:19:43pm
36 Kragar  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:19:43pm

re: #32 Be Zorch, Daddio

[Embedded content]

MST3k 819 - Invasion of the Neptune Men

37 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:22:48pm

re: #34 Talking Point Detective

So Zimmernan's lawyer's defense will be that Zimmerman's credibility shouldn't be an issue?

I'm thinking maybe he should re-think his strategy a bit.

[Link: usnews.msnbc.msn.com...]

Say that we call Zimmerman's credibility suspect and toss his version of events. What are we left with, besides both sides trying to sell their own version of how things went down?

38 Mich-again  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:23:47pm

re: #35 jaunte

"spending plan doesn’t reflect fiscal reality.”

"it doesn't need to."

39 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:24:23pm

re: #34 Talking Point Detective

So Zimmernan's lawyer's defense will be that Zimmerman's credibility shouldn't be an issue?

I'm thinking maybe he should re-think his strategy a bit.

[Link: usnews.msnbc.msn.com...]

Given the news from CNN, I think Zimmerman is toast:

Prosecutors: Jail phone transcripts show Zimmerman, wife talking finances in code

Despite telling the court they were indigent, George Zimmerman and his wife discussed -- in code, according to prosecutors -- money raised online to help in his defense on second-degree murder charges, jailhouse phone calls released Monday show.

Prosecutors had claimed the Zimmermans lied about their financial means before a Florida judge set his bond, which the suspect then posted to get out of jail. Zimmerman, accused in the death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, is now back behind bars after the judge revoked his bail, citing the misrepresentations.

Six calls made public Monday, out of about 151 total that Zimmerman made while incarcerated, appear to back up the prosecutor's assertions.

This really is a game changer: If Zimmerman is prove a liar as this appears to do, then his chances of beating the charges against him will be greatly reduced.

40 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:25:02pm

re: #39 Dark_Falcon

Given the news from CNN, I think Zimmerman is toast:

Prosecutors: Jail phone transcripts show Zimmerman, wife talking finances in code

This really is a game changer: If Zimmerman is prove a liar as this appears to do, then his chances of beating the charges against him will be greatly reduced.

Wouldn't you have to be asked a question in order to lie?

41 Mich-again  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:26:33pm

re: #34 Talking Point Detective

ear-witness facts

Now they're just making shit up..

42 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:26:41pm

re: #40 Targetpractice

Wouldn't you have to be asked a question in order to lie?

Here's a bit more of the article, making things clearer:

At her husband's April 20 bond hearing, Shellie Zimmerman testified she didn't know how much had been raised through the website her husband had set up before charges being filed.

And when asked whether the couple had money available to assist in his defense, she replied, "Um, not -- not that I'm aware of."

In one jailhouse phone conversation, Zimmerman asks his wife, "In my account, do I have at least $100?" She answers no, then tells him he has more like "$8, $8.60."

"So total everything, how much are we looking at?" Zimmerman asks his wife.

"Like $155," she responds.

Prosecutors claim the husband and wife were speaking in a type of code about their available funds, an assertion Zimmerman's lawyer Mark O'Mara says the defense has "never contested."

43 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:28:09pm

re: #35 jaunte

Budget Experts Stumped By Romney’s Plan To Grow Military Spending While Cutting Revenue

I'm curious to see if Romney can keep his shell game going through past the debates. Sooner or later if he doesn't actually make hard commitments to what he's going to cut even the most doe eyed of his supporters is going to start seeing him as nothing but a con man.

In graph form his plan looks even less sustainable, intelligent or justifiable. What in the hell could possibly warrant that much defense spending? The only plausible answers, still hiding up Romney's sleeve, should scare the hell out of anyone with a half ounce of common sense.

44 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:28:13pm

re: #38 Mich-again

"it doesn't need to."

Campaign released spending plans are not intended to be actually enacted. They're intended to draw votes by showcasing the issues the candidates "cares" about.

45 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:29:40pm

re: #40 Targetpractice

Wouldn't you have to be asked a question in order to lie?

He was asked a question, and he responded by certifying himself indigent under penalty of perjury.

46 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:31:12pm

re: #45 goddamnedfrank

He was asked a question, and he responded by certifying himself indigent under penalty of perjury.

He may very well have thought the Paypal funds were spoken for, to pay for his defense and her living expenses, and not for his bond.

47 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:32:04pm

re: #41 Mich-again

Now they're just making shit up..

Yeah - I liked the "ear-witness" quote also.

But seriously, the lawyer was saying that Z's credibility isn't important? So the judge shouldn't consider credibility when Zimmerman says that he shot Martin because he feared for his life?

So much for SYG.

48 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:32:20pm

re: #42 Dark_Falcon

Here's a bit more of the article, making things clearer:

She also stated in her testimony that her brother-in-law, George's brother, was the one in charge of the account and would know how much was in it. Yet the judge didn't think it vitally important at the hearing to get in touch with said brother-in-law.

49 Mich-again  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:34:05pm

Here is the excerpt from the Federal Register that explains the EPA rule on Mercury emissions. Pretty good read. (pdf) National Emission Standards for
Hazardous Air Pollutants From Coal- and Oil-Fired Electric Utility Steam
Generating Units...
It even includes sources for scientific peer reviews of the data and analysis used by the EPA. Which is more than any of the political opponents have provided.

50 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:34:34pm

re: #46 Targetpractice

He may very well have thought the Paypal funds were spoken for, to pay for his defense and her living expenses, and not for his bond.

Are you serious? Did you read the article? They spoke in code to make it seem they were speaking of smaller amounts - because they knew their conversations were being recorded.

They clearly knew exactly what they were doing. His credibility is shot.

51 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:35:35pm

re: #50 Talking Point Detective

Are you serious? Did you read the article? They spoke in code to make it seem they were speaking of smaller amounts - because they knew their conversations were being recorded.

They clearly knew exactly what they were doing. His credibility is shot.

So you know your calls are being recorded, so you speak in the most asinine "code" plausible?

52 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:37:50pm

re: #22 Dancing along the light of day

You need a front view! I need flowers, after that video!

Found one more tiny, almost overlooked it.
I love the texture

53 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:37:51pm

re: #46 Targetpractice

He may very well have thought the Paypal funds were spoken for, to pay for his defense and her living expenses, and not for his bond.

They also systematically transferred the money in amounts less than $10,000 because they know that amounts of $10,000 or more would be reported to the IRS.

It's actually pretty impressive how much the knew about the legality and how to skirt the law.

54 Mich-again  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:38:24pm

re: #51 Targetpractice

So you know your calls are being recorded, so you speak in the most asinine "code" plausible?

My wife and I use pig Latin when we need to speak in code.. HenWay isA oreYay OmMay EavingLay?

55 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:38:31pm

re: #46 Targetpractice

He may very well have thought the Paypal funds were spoken for, to pay for his defense and her living expenses, and not for his bond.

Sorry, but that explanation is not plausible at all. When you certify yourself indigent, and I've actually had to do this once in my life to pay for a medical emergency, you add up the value of everything even tangentially in your possession. You have to provide your car title, mortgage documents if you have them, and information regarding every single debt and account in your name, regardless of how they're allocated. It's impossible to think that funds are "spoken for" and simply omit them, you have to identify every single asset and obligation down to the penny. The entire process is designed to make it painfully obvious that you're signing a legal document and that hiding or omitting anything will have dire repercussions.

56 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:38:50pm

re: #51 Targetpractice

So you know your calls are being recorded, so you speak in the most asinine "code" plausible?

Most people don't know how to create and use effective verbal codes.

57 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:40:04pm

re: #55 goddamnedfrank

Sorry, but that explanation is not plausible at all. When you certify yourself indigent, and I've actually had to do this once in my life to pay for a medical emergency, you add up the value of everything even tangentially in your possession. You have to provide your car title, mortgage documents if you have them, and information regarding every single debt and account in your name, regardless of how they're allocated. It's impossible to think that funds are "spoken for" and simply omit them, you have to identify every single asset and obligation down to the penny. The entire process is designed to make it painfully obvious that you're signing a legal document and that hiding or omitting anything will have dire repercussions.

And who here wishes to accuse George Zimmerman of being a brain trust?

58 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:40:13pm

re: #51 Targetpractice

So you know your calls are being recorded, so you speak in the most asinine "code" plausible?

Did you read the article?

Prosecutors allege the couple was moving money out of an Internet PayPal account that they referred to as "Peter Pan,"...

So it was some kind of little game they played to refer to PayPal as Peter Pan? Just coincidental to the statements they made about how much money they had?

I'll ask again - are you serious?

59 Mich-again  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:40:20pm

re: #55 goddamnedfrank

The entire process is designed to make it painfully obvious that you're signing a legal document and that hiding or omitting anything will have dire repercussions.

Like when they repeat the Starbucks Order to you.

60 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:43:21pm

re: #57 Targetpractice

And who here wishes to accuse George Zimmerman of being a brain trust?

Someone lying because they're stupid and don't think they'll get caught isn't really a defense. The telephone code pretty much rules out the idea that the Zimmermans didn't understand the fact that they were attempting to deceive the court.

61 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:43:21pm

re: #58 Talking Point Detective

Did you read the article?

So it was some kind of little game they played to refer to PayPal as Peter Pan? Just coincidental to the statements they made about how much money they had?

I'll ask again - are you serious?

I am serious, having listened to the calls myself, I'm of the opinion that Zimmerman didn't trust O'Mara enough to let him have access to the account. It's not as thought the existence of the account was a secret, just the contents of it.

62 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:43:59pm

re: #57 Targetpractice

And who here wishes to accuse George Zimmerman of being a brain trust?

Why do you think his lawyer is trying to say that Zimmerman's credibility isn't relevant to the case?

63 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:44:26pm

re: #60 goddamnedfrank

Someone lying because they're stupid and don't think they'll get caught isn't really a defense. The telephone code pretty much rules out the idea that the Zimmermans didn't understand the fact that they were attempting to deceive the court.

The court was "deceived" only because the court didn't make the effort to find out more about the account than that it existed. Sherrie told the court that her brother-in-law knew how much was in it, because he was in charge of it, but neither the prosecutor nor the judge felt it necessary to get in touch with said brother-in-law.

64 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:45:06pm

re: #61 Targetpractice

I am serious, having listened to the calls myself, I'm of the opinion that Zimmerman didn't trust O'Mara enough to let him have access to the account. It's not as thought the existence of the account was a secret, just the contents of it.

Which is really, really damning. You just don't get to keep your financial information secret from the same court you're signing documents with certifying yourself as financially indigent.

65 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:45:06pm

re: #62 Talking Point Detective

Why do you think his lawyer is trying to say that Zimmerman's credibility isn't relevant to the case?

Because like I asked above, if you decide he's not credible and invalidate his version of events, then what is there left?

66 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:45:48pm

re: #64 goddamnedfrank

Which is really, really damning. You just don't get to keep your financial information secret from the same court you're signing documents with certifying yourself as financially indigent.

Then I await the state bringing perjury charges against George Zimmerman.

67 Mich-again  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:46:02pm

re: #57 Targetpractice

And who here wishes to accuse George Zimmerman of being a brain trust?

The sad thing is, George is a victim of having a judge for a dad. He probably got away with shit all along and never had to experience the smack across the forehead compliments of the system for a lesser offense and changed his course. This might be the first time GZ can't look for pops to make a call and cut a deal.

68 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:46:16pm

re: #63 Targetpractice

The court was "deceived" only because the court didn't make the effort to find out more about the account than that it existed.

It's not the court's job to prevent you from thinking you can lie to it.

69 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:48:15pm

re: #61 Targetpractice

I am serious, having listened to the calls myself, I'm of the opinion that Zimmerman didn't trust O'Mara enough to let him have access to the account. It's not as thought the existence of the account was a secret, just the contents of it.

Didn't trust O'Mara? So they thought their own attorney would be monitoring their calls and they wanted to hide their money from him?

And the transfer in amounts of less than $10,000 was just a coincidence?

70 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:48:34pm

re: #61 Targetpractice

I am serious, having listened to the calls myself, I'm of the opinion that Zimmerman didn't trust O'Mara enough to let him have access to the account. It's not as thought the existence of the account was a secret, just the contents of it.

He trusts the man to defend him against a charge that will put him away for life if he's convicted, but doesn't trust the lawyer with knowing about his money? That's quite foolish.

Question for anyone who knows: If O'Mara had become aware Zimmerman had lied in certifying himself as indigent, would he have been obligated to report it? I'm thinking here of ethics rules forbidding lawyers to aid in a filing they know to be dishonest.

71 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:50:15pm

re: #66 Targetpractice

Then I await the state bringing perjury charges against George Zimmerman.

If they do that, then he's toast. A perjury charge would cost him all credibility with most any jury.

72 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:50:15pm

re: #68 goddamnedfrank

It's not the court's job to prevent you from thinking you can lie to it.

So the judge and prosecution are told that a third party has knowledge that would affect the decision rendered...but feel no obligation to seek this third party out?

73 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:57:10pm

re: #61 Targetpractice

I am serious, having listened to the calls myself, I'm of the opinion that Zimmerman didn't trust O'Mara enough to let him have access to the account. It's not as thought the existence of the account was a secret, just the contents of it.

What caused them to reverse their opinion about trusting their own lawyer?

"(The calls) certainly suggest that they knew how much money that they had in the account that was coming through," said O'Mara. "Let’s not forget, though they were not honest with Judge Lester at first, that it was disclosed four days later. The money was transferred to my trust account and taken care of."

74 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:57:21pm

re: #69 Talking Point Detective

Didn't trust O'Mara? So they thought their own attorney would be monitoring their calls and they wanted to hide their money from him?

And the transfer in amounts of less than $10,000 was just a coincidence?

re: #70 Dark_Falcon

He trusts the man to defend him against a charge that will put him away for life if he's convicted, but doesn't trust the lawyer with knowing about his money? That's quite foolish.

Question for anyone who knows: If O'Mara had become aware Zimmerman had lied in certifying himself as indigent, would he have been obligated to report it? I'm thinking here of ethics rules forbidding lawyers to aid in a filing they know to be dishonest.

O'Mara came on the case the same day George was arrested, just after his first two lawyers publicly cut ties with him while at the same time announcing to the press their views of his mental state. Their first meeting is just O'Mara showing up to get George's signature on a petition to have the first judge recuse herself. It isn't until later calls that Shellie starts voicing a better opinion of the man. I don't consider it inconceivable that George just didn't trust O'Mara enough, prior to the hearing, to tell him about how much was in the account.

75 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 8:58:51pm

re: #73 Talking Point Detective

What caused them to reverse their opinion about trusting their own lawyer?

His performance at the bond hearing, including taking the prosecution to task for their wording of the affidavit. Actually showing he was taking the case seriously, instead of just there for the publicity.

76 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:00:06pm

re: #74 Targetpractice

re: #70 Dark_Falcon

O'Mara came on the case the same day George was arrested, just after his first two lawyers publicly cut ties with him while at the same time announcing to the press their views of his mental state. Their first meeting is just O'Mara showing up to get George's signature on a petition to have the first judge recuse herself. It isn't until later calls that Shellie starts voicing a better opinion of the man. I don't consider it inconceivable that George just didn't trust O'Mara enough, prior to the hearing, to tell him about how much was in the account.

That's possible, but it would still be perjury. If he wasn't sure, then he should not have filed papers claiming to be indigent. The judge would have set higher bail but it would have been honest.

77 Kragar  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:01:17pm

Sandusky's defense: He's a great guy!

Jerry Sandusky's defense doesn't refute charges, instead relies on character witnesses

Sandusky seems to hold the carefree attitude that this is all just a misunderstanding, that he was always a kindhearted guy whose positive impact on troubled boys is being misconstrued, especially by his accusers.

If only people would see how much he helped, they'd never believe these tales of hurt, no matter how many kids the prosecution trots out to cry on the witness stand.

That's a fantasy of course. That isn't a viable defense.

78 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:01:38pm

re: #72 Targetpractice

So the judge and prosecution are told that a third party has knowledge that would affect the decision rendered...but feel no obligation to seek this third party out?

Exactly, it's not their job. I don't understand why this is so hard to accept. Assuming that they are told, or bother in their spare time to read press coverage on the defendant, neither the Judge nor the prosecution had a duty to Zimmerman to keep him from thinking he could lie and get away with it. It's not like entrapment because they're not actually planting the idea of unlawful behavior or goading someone to break the law who otherwise wouldn't. They're just doing their daily jobs, dealing with other cases, etc. Nowhere in their job description will you find it's their duty to babysit idiot douchebags and make extra doubly sure that they're not going to knowingly sign their names to a lie. Defendants have lawyers to spoon feed them that kind of advice, and if a defendant doesn't trust their lawyer with all the information necessary to help them from making such an obviously bad decision, then in the end they've got nobody to blame but themselves.

79 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:03:04pm

re: #76 Dark_Falcon

That's possible, but it would still be perjury. If he wasn't sure, then he should not have filed papers claiming to be indigent. The judge would have set higher bail but it would have been honest.

State may very well try him on perjury charges when this all over, assuming he doesn't get convicted. My guess is they're not filing because doing so would bring their own credibility into question.

80 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:03:08pm

re: #75 Targetpractice

His performance at the bond hearing, including taking the prosecution to task for their wording of the affidavit. Actually showing he was taking the case seriously, instead of just there for the publicity.

So your theory is that they lie to their lawyer, and speak in code because they think that their lawyer is listening in on their phone calls to find out how much money they have?

Implausible.

But even still, it doesn't explain why they transferred money in amounts smaller than what has to be reported to the IRS. Do they think that the lawyer has a mole in the IRS?

81 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:04:08pm

re: #79 Targetpractice

State may very well try him on perjury charges when this all over, assuming he doesn't get convicted. My guess is they're not filing because doing so would bring their own credibility into question.

How would their credibility be brought into question?

82 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:06:07pm

re: #79 Targetpractice

State may very well try him on perjury charges when this all over, assuming he doesn't get convicted. My guess is they're not filing because doing so would bring their own credibility into question.

??
They filed perjury charges against her. How would bringing perjury charges against him bring their credibility into question whereas filing perjury charges against her wouldn't?

83 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:06:32pm

re: #81 Dark_Falcon

How would their credibility be brought into question?

Their affidavit at the bond hearing omitted that Zimmerman sustained injuries and that he was claiming self-defense. And in its motion to revoke bond, it excluded the portion of Shellie's testimony involving the brother-in-law. The state seems to be relying upon half-truths to make its case.

84 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:07:36pm

re: #83 Targetpractice

Their affidavit at the bond hearing omitted that Zimmerman sustained injuries and that he was claiming self-defense. And in its motion to revoke bond, it excluded the portion of Shellie's testimony involving the brother-in-law. The state seems to be relying upon half-truths to make its case.

They're required to make the defense's argument at a bond hearing?

85 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:08:34pm

re: #84 Talking Point Detective

They're required to make the defense's argument at a bond hearing?

They're required to include even exculpating evidence in the affidavit, especially when we're talking an SYG case.

86 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:10:10pm

re: #85 Targetpractice

They're required to include even exculpating evidence in the affidavit, especially when we're talking an SYG case.

I see. I can see where that would be a problem for them.

87 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:11:51pm

re: #79 Targetpractice

My guess is they're not filing because doing so would bring their own credibility into question.

How? Again, they have no affirmative duty to say to Zimmerman, "Hey, what about that Paypal account and website of yours we read about?" The fact that we can sit here and say it was monumentally stupid of Zimmerman to think he could keep such a thing secret after it was written about in dozens of national press stories doesn't have any bearing on the court's credibility.

The fact that I already knew an answer to a question I put to someone doesn't affect my credibility at all, whether or not they lie to me. It may seem like a gotcha situation and unfair from their (rather biased) perspective, but if it tells me something about their overall trustworthiness then the exercise is both ethical and incredibly useful.

89 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:13:57pm

re: #87 goddamnedfrank

How? Again, they have no affirmative duty to say to Zimmerman, "Hey, what about that Paypal account and website of yours we read about?" The fact that we can sit here and say it was monumentally stupid of Zimmerman to think he could keep such a thing secret after it was written about in dozens of national press stories doesn't have any bearing on the court's credibility.

The fact that I already knew an answer to a question I put to someone doesn't affect my credibility at all, whether or not they lie to me. It may seem like a gotcha situation and unfair from their (rather biased) perspective, but if it tells me something about their overall trustworthiness then the exercise is both ethical and incredibly useful.

The state doesn't allege his lied, they allege he was deceitful by omission. He only took the stand during the hearing to give his apology to the Martin family, he was never asked about his finances, even when the prosecution cross-examined him. The state's case amounts to his being guilty of deception by not jumping up after his wife's testimony to tell the court that she'd just committed perjury.

90 freetoken  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:14:02pm

VA CONVICTS: DNA tests show scale of bad convictions, study says

New DNA testing in hundreds of old Virginia homicide and sexual assault cases supports the exoneration of at least 38 suspects, according to a study released Monday by a national policy group that examined the test results.

The Urban Institute’s study is the first to say how many exonerations are likely from Virginia’s stash of archived, decades-old biological samples that so far have cleared at least five men who were convicted of sexual assaults. Officials with the state Department of Forensic Science, which is conducting the testing project, have said their job is not to suggest who should be exonerated, but to test the samples and deliver the results to law enforcement officials who determine whether they believe someone is innocent.

The institute’s researchers found that in 5 percent of homicide and sexual assault cases, DNA testing ruled out the convicted person. If the scope is narrowed to just the sexual assault convictions, DNA testing eliminated between 8 percent and 15 percent of convicted offenders. The wrongful conviction rate previously had been estimated at 3 percent or less.

[...]

I wonder if Virginians will accept how seriously wrong their justice system is working.

91 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:18:11pm

re: #89 Targetpractice

The state doesn't allege his lied, they allege he was deceitful by omission. He only took the stand during the hearing to give his apology to the Martin family, he was never asked about his finances, even when the prosecution cross-examined him. The state's case amounts to his being guilty of deception by not jumping up after his wife's testimony to tell the court that she'd just committed perjury.

So, he watches his wife commit perjury, and then he has a series of phone calls to keep secret the information she lied about under oath, and you think that he would risk her going to jail and him being convicted of murder just so they could hide some money from their own lawyer?

And I'll ask again how the < $10,000 transfers fits in with your thinking?

92 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:20:44pm

I'm tired and so I'm heading to bed. I'll leave you all with this article I'm posting so that Freetoken doesn't have to:

Behind the scenes of the world's most famous reality star family: The Kardashians take a trip down memory lane with Oprah

By Andrea Magrath

In a new interview with Oprah Winfrey, the Kardashian family have opened up about everything from Kim's short-lived marriage, to whether Kris Jenner 'pimps' her children out, and what they think they are actually famous for.

The clan have also opened up their photo albums, and revealed some previously unseen pictures from behind the scenes of the world's most famous family.

Old pictures show Kris Jenner and former husband, the late Robert Kardashian, on holiday with their close friends OJ Simpson and Nicole Brown.

93 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:20:56pm

re: #90 freetoken

The magnitude of injustice reflected in that study is really quite stunning.

94 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:22:35pm

re: #91 Talking Point Detective

So, he watches his wife commit perjury, and then he has a series of phone calls to keep secret the information she lied about under oath, and you think that he would risk her going to jail and him being convicted of murder just so they could hide some money from their own lawyer?

You're getting the sequence of events jumbled up, the calls were prior to the hearing, not after.

And I'll ask again how the < $10,000 transfers fits in with your thinking?

That it looks bad. And that the Feds might be able to charge her for structuring.

95 freetoken  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:23:09pm

re: #92 Dark_Falcon

Kim supposedly used the word "epiphany" in the interview.

It surprised me she knew a four syllable word.

96 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:26:25pm

re: #94 Targetpractice

That it looks bad. And that the Feds might be able to charge her for structuring.

I don't think the sequence affects the argument. So he lies with his wife to hide information, while being held on a murder charge where his credibility is very much at issue, and watches his wife commit perjury (no doubt conspiring with her in her doing so), because they want to hide money from their own lawyer?

I guess it's possible. It seems unlikely to me. They clearly have knowledge of the law. That has been clear all along with how he has conducted himself. This wasn't just a case of innocent stupidity.

97 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:28:47pm

re: #94 Targetpractice

You're getting the sequence of events jumbled up, the calls were prior to the hearing, not after.

That it looks bad. And that the Feds might be able to charge her for structuring.

Time for me to "hit my sack" as my girlfriend's kid is famous for saying.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

98 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:30:56pm

re: #96 Talking Point Detective

I don't think the sequence affects the argument. So he lies with his wife to hid information, while being held on a murder charge, and watches his wife commit perjury (no doubt conspiring with her in her doing so), because they want to hide money from their own lawyer?

I guess it's possible. It seems unlikely to me. They clearly have knowledge of the law. That has been clear all along with how he has conducted himself. This wasn't just a case of innocent stupidity.

So, besides a lower bond, what did he gain by purposefully deceiving the court. He had a GPS anklet on, so he couldn't make a run for it. And his actions after his release, like turning the money in the account of to O'Mara as well as the second passport, doesn't give the appearance with some grand scheme.

The man, from all appearances, is a dumbass. A knowledgeable one, perhaps, but a dumbass nonetheless.

99 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:35:48pm

re: #89 Targetpractice

The state's case amounts to his being guilty of deception by not jumping up after his wife's testimony to tell the court that she'd just committed perjury.

Along with the evidence in the recorded phone conversations of his collusion in the crafting of that false testimony.

100 Kragar  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:37:45pm

re: #98 Targetpractice

So, besides a lower bond, what did he gain by purposefully deceiving the court. He had a GPS anklet on, so he couldn't make a run for it. And his actions after his release, like turning the money in the account of to O'Mara as well as the second passport, doesn't give the appearance with some grand scheme.

The man, from all appearances, is a dumbass. A knowledgeable one, perhaps, but a dumbass nonetheless.

One can be quite intelligent and well educated and still be a complete dumbass.

101 gwangung  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:37:50pm

re: #72 Targetpractice

So the judge and prosecution are told that a third party has knowledge that would affect the decision rendered...but feel no obligation to seek this third party out?

Clown question, bro.

102 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:41:10pm

re: #98 Targetpractice

So, besides a lower bond, what did he gain by purposefully deceiving the court. He had a GPS anklet on, so he couldn't make a run for it. And his actions after his release, like turning the money in the account of to O'Mara as well as the second passport, doesn't give the appearance with some grand scheme.

The man, from all appearances, is a dumbass. A knowledgeable one, perhaps, but a dumbass nonetheless.

He was deathly afraid of going to jail. The higher the bond, the more likely he is to be spending time in jail.

103 simoom  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:41:21pm

Dith Purkinje - Pulse with a Little Water

104 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:45:18pm

re: #99 goddamnedfrank

Along with the evidence in the recorded phone conversations of his collusion in the crafting of that false testimony.

Even the state doesn't say they planned for her to lie, only to keep the money secret.

105 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:49:15pm

re: #102 Talking Point Detective

He was deathly afraid of going to jail. The higher the bond, the more likely he is to be spending time in jail.

So he...what? Was running under the assumption that he could announce the contents of that account after the bond was granted and the state couldn't do anything to him?

106 freetoken  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:50:35pm

Our America:

Tiny little Christian cross orbiting the Earth "in the face of Satan" can now be tracked by satellite

Last month, a 2-inch cross was launched into space as Celestis 11/Falcon 9 cargo so that it could orbit the Earth and give Christians joy and hope that the "sign of the Son of man in heaven" was literally in the "heavens of the Earth."

The cross was cut out of the much larger cross lugged around by Arthur Blessitt, who walked almost 40,000 miles to take his wooden cross into 319 nations, territories and island groups. After many years of failed attempts in getting a Christian cross launched into Earth's orbit, Blessitt excitedly declared in May, "We wave the cross in the face of Satan over all the earth proclaiming Good News in Jesus Christ for all people."
Things are even more exciting, it seems.

The cross "Orbits the Earth every 90 minutes!" Blessett's website proclaims, and Christians can track its glorious progress. Actually, they'll be tracking Celestis 11/Falcon 9 on Google, but nonetheless, as Blessitt says, "A Cross made from the Cross Carried Around the World on foot is 'Now' Orbiting This Earth! Its [sic] fun to see where the cross is any moment."

Blessitt's gimmick for years was hauling a wooden cross around the world.

That article, and his Wikipedia entry (either written by him or one of his followers) gloss over a few bits of his life. He used to brag about going into porno shops ... to insert gospel tracts into the porno mags... um, yeah.

Note that the wikipedia entry mentions his second wife... there are questions about why this guy divorced his first wife, a woman about which he wrote in a book that God led him to marry.

Anyway, this is America - there is a mark born every minute.

107 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:55:50pm

re: #105 Targetpractice

So he...what? Was running under the assumption that he could announce the contents of that account after the bond was granted and the state couldn't do anything to him?

It seems that way.

Clearly, they had a reason to lie to the court and risk the consequences of doing so. If they thought that the money wasn't germane to how their bond would be set, then they would have just said how much money they had. They knew that having that money was relevant to where their bond would be set, so they lied. Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

I see three possibilities:

They lied "accidentally" - completely implausible.

They lied, risking jail time for perjury and undermining a murder defense, to hide money from their lawyer. 2nd most implausible.

The lied, risking jail time for perjury and undermining a murder defense, to stay out of jail. Maybe it doesn't seem like a plausible explanation, but it does seem like the least implausible to me.

OK - I really do need to hit my sack now.

108 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 9:59:59pm

re: #104 Targetpractice

Even the state doesn't say they planned for her to lie, only to keep the money secret.

That's really a distinction without difference. Also, did you see under 1 the phrase "reasons cited by defendant" part B "Defendant has no significant financial assets?" You do get that perjury isn't just about what's said on the stand right? It's also covers the facts you certify to in your legal motions. Section 2 states "Defendant misrepresented, misled and deceived the court as to his possession of a United States passport and Defendant and his families financial circumstances."

109 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 10:05:15pm

re: #108 goddamnedfrank

That's really a distinction without difference. Also, did you see under 1 the phrase "reasons cited by defendant" part B "Defendant has no significant financial assets?" You do get that perjury isn't just about what's said on the stand right? It's also covers the facts you certify to in your legal motions. Section 2 states "Defendant misrepresented, misled and deceived the court as to his possession of a United States passport and Defendant and his families financial circumstances."

Wouldn't the state have to show that he purposefully lied on the paperwork? As opposed to stupidly believing that the account didn't count towards his finances?

110 gwangung  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 10:09:12pm

re: #109 Targetpractice

Wouldn't the state have to show that he purposefully lied on the paperwork? As opposed to stupidly believing that the account didn't count towards his finances?

I'd say ignorance is not an excuse here.

111 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 10:10:18pm

re: #110 gwangung

I'd say ignorance is not an excuse here.

It is if you're trying to prove someone knowingly perjured himself.

112 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 10:10:47pm

re: #109 Targetpractice

Wouldn't the state have to show that he purposefully lied on the paperwork? As opposed to stupidly believing that the account didn't count towards his finances?

I'm not sure where you personally set the bar at "purposefully," but that phone call, the fact that he set up the website and Paypal account plus the fact that the website existed for days before he was booked into jail make me think that's an incredibly easy hurdle to clear. I'd say it strains all credulity to see it as an innocent oversight.

113 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 10:11:52pm

re: #112 goddamnedfrank

I'm not sure where you personally set the bar at "purposefully," but that phone call, the fact that he set up the website and Paypal account plus the fact that the website existed for days before he was booked into jail make me think that's an incredibly easy hurdle to clear. I'd say it strains all credulity to see it as an innocent oversight.

The website, at least the one I saw, said that money was to go towards legal defense and living expenses. He may have believed that paying bond was not covered under either.

114 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 10:15:48pm

re: #111 Targetpractice

It is if you're trying to prove someone knowingly perjured himself.

Again we come back to the use of code, the discussion regarding < $10K transfers and the fact that he kept the information from his lawyer.

115 gwangung  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 10:18:22pm

re: #111 Targetpractice

It is if you're trying to prove someone knowingly perjured himself.

Look at this as an incentive for knowing the law.

This sort of "lawyering" goes great on the internet, but it really doesn't play in real life.

116 gwangung  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 10:20:03pm

re: #114 goddamnedfrank

Again we come back to the use of code, the discussion regarding < $10K transfers and the fact that he kept the information from his lawyer.

Indeed. But whether purposefully or not, he'd be in trouble.

I think part of this is to discourage the attempts to evade the spirit of the law by being too fine on the details and letter of the law.

117 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 10:20:06pm

re: #114 goddamnedfrank

Again we come back to the use of code, the discussion regarding < $10K transfers and the fact that he kept the information from his lawyer.

The code might have been to prevent other prisoners from finding out how much money he or his wife were sitting on. The $10K amounts look bad, and I don't know how to explain that. And as I said above, he very likely didn't feel comfortable enough with O'Mara to let him in on how much money was in the account.

118 gwangung  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 10:21:03pm

re: #113 Targetpractice

The website, at least the one I saw, said that money was to go towards legal defense and living expenses. He may have believed that paying bond was not covered under either.

Repeated: ignorance of the law is not an excuse. A reasonable man would not think so.

119 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 10:29:42pm

re: #118 gwangung

Repeated: ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

Florida law is that the prosecution would have to prove that George knowingly lied under oath, whether verbally or written, that he was providing false information. Or show conclusively that there was no way he could have believed he was being truthful.

120 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 10:30:42pm

re: #117 Targetpractice

The code might have been to prevent other prisoners from finding out how much money he or his wife were sitting on.

C'mon, you don't really believe this do you? How would other prisoners possibly listen in on her end of the phone call?

re: #118 gwangung

Repeated: ignorance of the law is not an excuse. A reasonable man would not think so.

Exactly. When the court asks you to add up all your shit you add up all your shit. You don't play games. You don't specifically omit the giant internet windfall you ostensibly solicited to pay for your defense at your freaking bail hearing. If you're unsure about anything you ask your lawyer. If you choose to lie or hide shit from your lawyer, then you're well and duly boned. That's not ignorance, that's not uncertainty, that's fuckery, and the legal system takes a dim view on fuckery.

121 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 10:34:41pm

re: #120 goddamnedfrank

C'mon, you don't really believe this do you? How would other prisoners possibly listen in on her end of the phone call?

re: #118 gwangung

Exactly. When the court asks you to add up all your shit you add up all your shit. You don't play games. You don't specifically omit the giant internet windfall you ostensibly solicited to pay for your defense at your freaking bail hearing. If you're unsure about anything you ask your lawyer. If you choose to lie or hide shit from your lawyer, then you're well and duly boned. That's not ignorance, that's not uncertainty, that's fuckery, and the legal system takes a dim view on fuckery.

You can prove that O'Mara asked him how much was in the account and he lied about it?

122 Cheechako  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 10:48:04pm

First of all, banks are required to report all transfers of $10,000 or more to the IRS. The Zimmermans knew this. When they talked about $9.00 and $8.60 there was a corresponding transfer from the Pay Pal account in the amounts of $9,000 and $8,600. The State has all the records from Pay Pal and their bank accounts. The fund transfer dates/times occur shortly after the dates/times they had these conversations.

Plus, all phone calls by jail prisoners are recorded as a standard practice. There are large signs in several languages posted next to the phones the prisoners are allowed to use notifying them that all calls are being recorded.

123 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 10:56:09pm

re: #121 Targetpractice

You can prove that O'Mara asked him how much was in the account and he lied about it?

The alternatives are that O'Mara was unprofessionally lazy and didn't perform even this modicum of due diligence or that he willfully allowed the perjury presented by Mrs. Zimmerman under cross to be entered into the record without comment.

Anyway what matters is that the court seems to have been persuaded that he actively deceived them, which is why his bail was revoked rather than raised.

124 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 11:03:46pm

re: #123 goddamnedfrank

The alternatives are that O'Mara was unprofessionally lazy and didn't perform even this modicum of due diligence or that he willfully allowed the perjury presented by Mrs. Zimmerman under cross to be entered into the record without comment.

Anyway what matters is that the court seems to have been persuaded that he actively deceived them, which is why his bail was revoked rather than raised.

The judge was convinced by a motion that cherry-picked portions of the phone calls, as well as Shellie's testimony, and left out portions of her testimony that could have served to exculpate her, such as:

Q. And you mentioned also, in terms of the ability of your husband to make a bond amount, that you all had no money, is that correct?
A. To my knowledge, that is correct.
Q: Were you aware of the website that Mr. Zimmerman or somebody on his behalf created?
A: I’m aware of that website.
Q: How much money is in that website right now? How much money as a result of that website was —
A: Currently, I do not know.
Q: Who would know that?
A: That would be my brother-in-law.
Q: And is he — I know he’s not in the same room as you, but is he available so we can speak to him, too, or the Court can inquire through the State or the Defense?
A: I’m sure that we could probably get him on the phone.
Q: Okay. So he’s not there now.
A: No, he is not, sir.

Q: Do you have any estimate as to how much money has already been obtained or collected?
A: I do not.

That bolded section is not in the state's motion to revoke bond, nor is it in the affidavit charging her with perjury. And there's no indication in the motion that that section had been cut out.

125 blueraven  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 11:11:51pm

re: #124 Targetpractice

The judge was convinced by a motion that cherry-picked portions of the phone calls, as well as Shellie's testimony, and left out portions of her testimony that could have served to exculpate her, such as:

That bolded section is not in the state's motion to revoke bond, nor is it in the affidavit charging her with perjury. And there's no indication in the motion that that section had been cut out.

WTH?

She stated in her testimony that she had no idea of the amount in the PP acct, when she clearly did.
It matters not, about the brother in law.
She lied. period.

126 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 11:16:46pm

re: #125 blueraven

WTH?

She stated in her testimony that she had no idea of the amount in the PP acct, when she clearly did.
It matters not, about the brother in law.
She lied. period.

Look at the questions asked.

Q: How much money is in that website right now? How much money as a result of that website was —
A: Currently, I do not know.

Q: Do you have any estimate as to how much money has already been obtained or collected?
A: I do not.

She's being asked if she knows how much was in the account at that very moment, which she could truthfully say she did not know. And the question about an estimate would only be false if she did have an estimate, which the state would have to prove.

127 blueraven  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 11:18:10pm

re: #126 Targetpractice

Look at the questions asked.

She's being asked if she knows how much was in the account at that very moment, which she could truthfully say she did not know. And the question about an estimate would only be false if she did have an estimate, which the state would have to prove.

Oh brother...you are really reaching.

128 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 11:20:33pm

re: #127 blueraven

Oh brother...you are really reaching.

Like I already posted above, Florida law is that the prosecution has to show she knowingly lied to them, not that she was simply mistaken.

129 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 11:23:03pm

re: #124 Targetpractice

The judge was convinced by a motion that cherry-picked portions of the phone calls, as well as Shellie's testimony, and left out portions of her testimony that could have served to exculpate her, such as:

That bolded section is not in the state's motion to revoke bond, nor is it in the affidavit charging her with perjury. And there's no indication in the motion that that section had been cut out.

This is the second time that you've asserted that the State has an obligation to provide all available exculpatory information in their initial complaint affidavit. I'm not sure how many of these you've actually read, but that's simply not the case. Their requirement in that document is to make their case for probable cause. You seem to be conflating the prosecuting attorney's disclosure obligations under Brady v Maryland with their initial making of the case that a crime has been committed. Not the same thing at all.

130 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 11:24:59pm

re: #129 goddamnedfrank

This is the second time that you've asserted that the State has an obligation to provide all available exculpatory information in their initial complaint affidavit. I'm not sure how many of these you've actually read, but that's simply not the case. Their requirement in that document is to make their case for probable cause. You seem to be conflating the prosecuting attorney's disclosure obligations under Brady v Maryland with their initial making of the case that a crime has been committed. Not the same thing at all.

So the state may use half-truths to sway a judge to grant a motion, filed during a hearing that had nothing to do with said motion, leaving the defense no time to respond, and it's perfectly legal?

131 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 11:32:51pm

re: #51 Targetpractice

So you know your calls are being recorded, so you speak in the most asinine "code" plausible?

neither of these guys seem to be terribly swift when it comes to things like that...

132 boredtechindenver  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 11:33:43pm

re: #120 goddamnedfrank

If you're unsure about anything you ask your lawyer. If you choose to lie or hide shit from your lawyer, then you're well and duly boned. That's not ignorance, that's not uncertainty, that's fuckery, and the legal system takes a dim view on fuckery.

He may not be boned as bad as his wife, but now they have a big stick to use. I bet they offer him a plea bargain, in exchange for dropping charges against his wife. He may win because of SYG, but if he doesn't take a deal, she goes to jail.

If I were the prosecutor, I would also push to have her trial before his, and if it were to get to court, I would hammer her mercilessly, so they both understand the consequences of not taking the deal.

133 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 11:34:02pm

re: #131 Expand Your Ground

neither of these guys seem to be terribly swift when it comes to things like that...

And neither does the state, apparently, as they had these transcripts for days leading up to the hearing and apparently didn't crack this ingenious "code" until after O'Mara tells the judge about the contents of the account and secures them from George.

134 blueraven  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 11:37:57pm

re: #133 Targetpractice

And neither does the state, apparently, as they had these transcripts for days leading up to the hearing and apparently didn't crack this ingenious "code" until after O'Mara tells the judge about the contents of the account and secures them from George.

Which means absolutely nothing.
She lied. To the judge. Under oath.

135 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 11:38:28pm

re: #134 blueraven

Which means absolutely nothing.
She lied. To the judge. Under oath.

She made statements that, to her, may have been truthful. The state has to prove otherwise.

136 blueraven  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 11:39:47pm

re: #135 Targetpractice

She made statements that, to her, may have been truthful. The state has to prove otherwise.

They did.

137 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 11:40:46pm

re: #136 blueraven

They did.

They showed she knew at that very moment how much was in the account? Or that she had an estimate in mind but lied about it?

138 blueraven  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 11:43:41pm

re: #137 Targetpractice

They showed she knew at that very moment how much was in the account? Or that she had an estimate in mind but lied about it?

Yes. She obviously could have provided a damn good estimate about how much was in the acct at that very moment.
She wouldn't have been charged with perjury had she been off by 10 or even 25K. Get real.

139 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 11:44:10pm

re: #130 Targetpractice

So the state may use half-truths to sway a judge to grant a motion, filed during a hearing that had nothing to do with said motion, leaving the defense no time to respond, and it's perfectly legal?

What half truths are you talking about, not re-presenting his wife's concocted BS story about the brother in law that the court heard her mention the first time around? The bail was revoked at a hearing dedicated to that end.

Secondly, the defense not only had ample time to respond to the hearing, according to the Motion to Revoke Bond it was the defense that told the court on 4/27/12 that Zimmerman's family members had "misinformed the court ... about defendant and his families finances." The bond wasn't revoked until 6/1/12.

140 freetoken  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 11:44:55pm
141 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 11:46:07pm

re: #138 blueraven

Yes. She obviously could have provided a damn good estimate about how much was in the acct at that very moment.
She wouldn't have been charged with perjury had she been off by 10 or even 25K. Get real.

Sure she would have. She says "I think it's $50,000," but state comes back saying at the time she was giving her testimony, it was actually $75,000. She'd still have been charged, the accusation now that she tried to downplay how much was really in the account to attain a lower bond.

142 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 11:48:22pm

re: #139 goddamnedfrank

What half truths are you talking about, not re-presenting his wife's concocted BS story about the brother in law that the court heard her mention the first time around? The bail was revoked at a hearing dedicated to that end.

No, the hearing that the motion was filed at was one about a motion filed by the local news affiliates and their national partners to have discovery evidence released.

Secondly, the defense not only had ample time to respond to the hearing, according to the Motion to Revoke Bond it was the defense that told the court on 4/27/12 that Zimmerman's family members had "misinformed the court ... about defendant and his families finances." The bond wasn't revoked until 6/1/12.

And O'Mara is psychic, so he knew Corey would not only file to revoke bond, but when and what she'd use to do it. But he couldn't read his client to know how much was in the account. Has the court made sure George Zimmerman's head is shielded by lead?

143 blueraven  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 11:48:24pm

re: #141 Targetpractice

Sure she would have. She says "I think it's $50,000," but state comes back saying at the time she was giving her testimony, it was actually $75,000. She'd still have been charged, the accusation now that she tried to downplay how much was really in the account to attain a lower bond.

You can believe all that if you want along with the tooth fairy and santa.
It doesn't make any difference. She lied and she knew she was lying.

144 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 11:50:19pm

re: #143 blueraven

You can believe all that if you want along with the tooth fairly and santa.
It doesn't make any difference. She lied and she knew she was lying.

And you can't prove it, the best you can do is say "I think she's lying." But under Florida law, that's not sufficient:

This Court has held that statements alleged to be perjurious must be of “empirical fact” and not of opinion, belief or perception…. One of the essential elements of perjury in official proceedings is that the person making the statement does not believe it to be true… The questions posed to elicit perjured testimony must be asked with the appropriate specificity necessary to result in an equally specific statement of fact.

Cohen v. State, 985 So.2d 1207 (Fla. App. 3 Dist. 2008)(citations omitted).

145 blueraven  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 11:54:17pm

re: #144 Targetpractice

And you can't prove it, the best you can do is say "I think she's lying." But under Florida law, that's not sufficient:

Cohen v. State, 985 So.2d 1207 (Fla. App. 3 Dist. 2008)(citations omitted).

My God man, the judge was not asking for a belief or an opinion. he was asking about a fact.
Did she know how much money was in the acct?
Fact: she did
Fact: she lied about it

146 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 11:56:03pm

re: #145 blueraven

My God man, the judge was not asking for a belief or an opinion. he was asking about a fact.
Did she know how much money was in the acct?
Fact: she did
Fact: she lied about it

The judge was presented a motion that cherry-picked phone conversations and omitted a section of testimony that might have been cause to question the state as to why they didn't pursue the contents of the account further at the time of the hearing. Or, in short, the state lied by omission to the judge.

147 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 11:57:02pm

re: #142 Targetpractice

No, the hearing that the motion was filed at was one about a motion filed by the local news affiliates and their national partners to have discovery evidence released.

That was the 4/27/12 hearing, look at item 3 on Motion to Revoke Bond. That's the same hearing where defense told the court about the misrepresentation and got the ball rolling. The prosecutor's actual Motion to Revoke Bond is dated 6/1/12, over a month later.

And O'Mara is psychic, so he knew Corey would not only file to revoke bond, but when and what she'd use to do it. But he couldn't read his client to know how much was in the account. Has the court made sure George Zimmerman's head is shielded by lead?

LOLWUT?

148 blueraven  Mon, Jun 18, 2012 11:59:02pm

re: #146 Targetpractice

The judge was presented a motion that cherry-picked phone conversations and omitted a section of testimony that might have been cause to question the state as to why they didn't pursue the contents of the account further at the time of the hearing. Or, in short, the state lied by omission to the judge.

And the judge is so stupid, he doesn't even look over the court transcript, or know what questions he asked?

I cant even believe I have spent this much time arguing about this. It is nuts.

Goodnight all. Sleep well.

149 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 12:07:12am

re: #147 goddamnedfrank

That was the 4/27/12 hearing, look at item 3 on Motion to Revoke Bond. That's the same hearing where defense told the court about the misrepresentation and got the ball rolling. The prosecutor's actual Motion to Revoke Bond is dated 6/1/12, over a month later.

Prosecutors ask judge to revoke Zimmerman's bail

The motion was filed ahead of a hearing in which Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester Jr. was due to consider motions to keep much of the evidence in the case against Zimmerman under seal pending his trial, on a charge for which he faces a penalty of 25 years to life.

The April 27th hearing was one called shortly after the notification to the court as to the account's contents.

150 freetoken  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 12:20:15am
151 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 12:52:38am

Ralph McTell sings The Zimmermann Blues

152 EdDantes  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 1:07:03am

re: #150 freetoken

Yeah, Satchmo!

153 researchok  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 1:26:35am

Morning, all

154 researchok  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 1:30:28am

re: #150 freetoken

I'd have more to say but it's hard to type while swayin'.

155 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 2:09:01am

Those who stood, those who fell: fatal cases

By way of TaNahesi Coates:

Tampa Bay Times has assembled a collection of SYG cases in which there were fatalities.

I haven't gone through them all, but: the examples that make me uncomfortable currently have the edge. Not just because of outcomes when set to trial, but the manner in SYG "logic" is deployed to justify lethal force:

Two brothers came home to find intruders in their house. They approached them with guns and when they saw one of the men aiming his own gun, they opened fire. One robber wound up dead and another was wounded. "I could have called 911 and in two days they let him go and they do it again," Anthony Julien was quoted as saying in the Orlando Sentinel after the break-in. "We shot first and then called 911."

It's too late in the evening for me to get profound about the social contract, but this just doesn't feel right. We've gone from self defense to letting people get away with killing as retribution or solution to grievance.

156 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 2:23:41am

re: #155 The Ghost of a Flea

People want Law and Order, but they also want Low Taxes. So they go for the cheap splutions. The result is SYG and people like Sheriff Joe Arpaio.

157 freetoken  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 2:50:35am
158 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 3:25:33am

Good morning to the very late and very early Lizards. Early shift here in Philly as things are getting lively over in Germany and I had to come in early to do some support work.

159 Flounder  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 5:02:33am

Crap, just when fuel prices have been going down
[Link: apnews.myway.com...]

160 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 5:03:37am

'Morning.

Unless some one's talking about Oktoberfest, I hate the phrase "Things are getting lively in Germany."

161 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 5:04:20am

re: #160 Decatur Deb

'Morning.

Unless some one's talking about Oktoberfest, I hate the phrase "Things are getting lively in Germany."

Do you prefer the phrase "Things are getting deadly in Germany"?

162 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 5:06:01am

re: #161 Expand Your Ground

Do you prefer the phrase "Things are getting deadly in Germany"?

Too often it's the same statement in translation.

163 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 5:26:00am

Morning Lizardim. A spectacular thunderstorm woke me up at 3:45 this morning. It's supposed to clear off and bring in terrible heat, with another round of storms to close the day. I'd just as soon skip the heat and keep the storms coming, it's more fun that way.

164 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 5:29:50am

Donner and Blitzening here in Germany, too. Summer thundershowers to herald in the change in season when the rain starts getting warmer...

165 dragonfire1981  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 5:51:49am

OT: there's a group of Christians around here that are apparently trying to get "Fifty shades of grey" and its sequels banned from stores and libraries. There were no less than 4 posts on my Facebook feed about it this morning.

166 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 5:53:10am

re: #165 dragonfire1981

OT: there's a group of Christians around here that are apparently trying to get "Fifty shades of grey" and its sequels banned from stores and libraries. There were no less than 4 posts on my Facebook feed about it this morning.

Groan. These are the kinds of people that make me want to crawl in a hole somewhere and hide. Jesus wasn't like that, but of course, my saying that makes me a heretic and I should be burned at the stake.

167 Mattand  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 5:57:13am

re: #155 The Ghost of a Flea

I haven't gone through them all, but: the examples that make me uncomfortable currently have the edge. Not just because of outcomes when set to trial, but the manner in SYG "logic" is deployed to justify lethal force:
...
It's too late in the evening for me to get profound about the social contract, but this just doesn't feel right. We've gone from self defense to letting people get away with killing as retribution or solution to grievance.

Sometimes I think this is the downside to how our country was formed. Guns and violence were an unavoidable situation in much of the wilderness that became the US. The religious justifications for conflict (i.e., an eye for an eye) didn't help either.

To be honest, it's a simple solution. Someone wrongs you or gets in your way, kill 'em. Problem solved. It's the same reason so many people love the death penalty and now SYG. It's not a deterrent, it's revenge. Unfortunately, for many Americans, that's what justice boils down to.

Violence is easy. Civilization is hard.

168 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 5:58:30am

re: #165 dragonfire1981

OT: there's a group of Christians around here that are apparently trying to get "Fifty shades of grey" and its sequels banned from stores and libraries. There were no less than 4 posts on my Facebook feed about it this morning.

Lol.
The last I checked, the Bible ain't exactly PG material....

169 Flounder  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 6:08:28am

A former Rutgers University student who was convicted of bias for using a webcam to see his roommate and another man kissing was released from jail Tuesday after serving 20 days of a 30-day sentence.

Read more: [Link: www.nypost.com...]

170 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 6:14:53am

re: #165 dragonfire1981

OT: there's a group of Christians around here that are apparently trying to get "Fifty shades of grey" and its sequels banned from stores and libraries. There were no less than 4 posts on my Facebook feed about it this morning.

Can't they do the easy thing and just not read it or is that too hard?

171 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 6:16:22am

re: #170 HappyWarrior

Can't they do the easy thing and just not read it or is that too hard?

It's not that, it's that they don't want other people to read it because it will corrupt their souls. Unfortunately for me, Christians have garnered a well-deserved reputation for being nosy busybodies who do nothing but try to impose their morality on everyone else.

172 makeitstop  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 6:16:54am

re: #170 HappyWarrior

Can't they do the easy thing and just not read it or is that too hard?

Insufficient. It's a given that they're not going to read it. What they really want is you not being allowed to read it.

/

173 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 6:19:58am

Yeah I get that and then these same people claim they're for small government. Yeah right. Be nice if they were at least honest that they're big government just as much if not more than the left.

174 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 6:22:16am

re: #173 HappyWarrior

Yeah I get that and then these same people claim they're for small government. Yeah right. Be nice if they were at least honest that they're big government just as much if not more than the left.

Yeah. They're big government in a totally different way. They want to be left alone when it comes to taxes and their income, but they want to legislate their morality on everyone else. Which, if you ask me, is a heck of a lot bigger government than a few social services and publicly funded programs.

175 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 6:32:07am

re: #174 thedopefishlives

Yeah. They're big government in a totally different way. They want to be left alone when it comes to taxes and their income, but they want to legislate their morality on everyone else. Which, if you ask me, is a heck of a lot bigger government than a few social services and publicly funded programs.

I still can't believe people buy that they're the party of small government and fiscal responsibility despite all evidence that differs.

176 darthstar  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 6:33:47am

Mornin' ruffians...

177 darthstar  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 6:40:08am

And he thinks he can stare down Iran?

Image: political-pictures-metaphors.gif

178 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 6:43:28am

10 rockets from Gaza in recent hours; Hamas claims launches

Palestinians fire total of 16 rockets at Israel in past 24 hours; IAF strikes rocket squad, critically injuring one, at least 4 Palestinians killed in past day; Hamas claims responsibility for 10 launches.

179 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 6:44:37am

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. Here's another gorgeously shot video that incorporates time-lapse and tilt-shift images of the NYC metro area as seen from the top of 8 Spruce - aka NY by Gehry (Frank Gehry's skyscraper in Lower Manhattan).

It's always a good idea to remind oneself of all that is beautiful in the world when so much bad stuff is going down (Syria, the debt crises, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc.)

181 kirkspencer  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 6:54:35am

re: #180 Killgore Trout

MSNBC's in Trouble for Selectively Editing Romney's WaWa Moment

But notice what the complaints are about. With the clipping, Romney's just praising Wawa. Without the clipping, Romney's caught being an idiot. (33 page form to change address at the post office? Really?)

182 iossarian  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 6:56:21am

re: #181 kirkspencer

Complete nontroversy.

183 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 6:58:44am

re: #175 HappyWarrior

I still can't believe people buy that they're the party of small government and fiscal responsibility despite all evidence that differs.

They're not. They are the party of "we have the power and will tell you want to do."

184 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:00:04am

re: #181 kirkspencer

But notice what the complaints are about. With the clipping, Romney's just praising Wawa. Without the clipping, Romney's caught being an idiot. (33 page form to change address at the post office? Really?)

Sort of. MSNBC shot themselves in the foot by being lazy and dishonest. They could have made a point about the factual errors in the point he was making but instead tried to manufacture s fake scandal about Mitt being out of touch with automatic hoagie machines.

185 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:07:57am

The Supreme Court ruled that the federal government must reimburse Native American tribes for money they spent on federal programs. The feds had agreed to fully reimburse money tribes spent on programs like law enforcement, environmental protection and agricultural assistance, but Congress capped the amount of money earmarked for that reimbursement. The tribes sued, and the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Denver said the money must be fully reimbursed.

The Supreme Court, in a 5-4 decision, ruled that the feds must fully reimburse the tribes.

Oh, and check out the majority/dissent split:
Majority opinion written by Sotomayor and joined by Justices Antonin Scalia, Anthony Kennedy, Clarence Thomas and Elena Kagan.

The dissent: Chief Justice John Roberts, and Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer and Samuel Alito dissented.


Bet you didn't see that one coming...

186 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:11:57am

Good morning lizards!

187 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:14:09am

Herkum derkum.

Well, I'm so out of touch I didn't even know they had automatic hoagies making machines. I'm also so out of touch that I also think that Subway "hoagies" taste like crap and their breads are disgusting. Nothing beats a handcrafted homemade hoagie or sub like they used to make all along the Jersey shore and points inland.

188 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:16:07am

re: #185 lawhawk

The Supreme Court ruled that the federal government must reimburse Native American tribes for money they spent on federal programs. The feds had agreed to fully reimburse money tribes spent on programs like law enforcement, environmental protection and agricultural assistance, but Congress capped the amount of money earmarked for that reimbursement. The tribes sued, and the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Denver said the money must be fully reimbursed.

The Supreme Court, in a 5-4 decision, ruled that the feds must fully reimburse the tribes.

Oh, and check out the majority/dissent split:
Majority opinion written by Sotomayor and joined by Justices Antonin Scalia, Anthony Kennedy, Clarence Thomas and Elena Kagan.

The dissent: Chief Justice John Roberts, and Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer and Samuel Alito dissented.

Bet you didn't see that one coming...

The mind boggles. Still, good for the tribes. We've already done enough to them without having to shaft them on reimbursement, of all things.

189 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:16:29am

re: #187 Gus

Herkum derkum.

Well, I'm so out of touch I didn't even know they had automatic hoagies making machines. I'm also so out of touch that I also think that Subway "hoagies" taste like crap and their breads are disgusting. Nothing beats a handcrafted homemade hoagie or sub like they used to make all along the Jersey shore and points inland.

Down here in Virginia it's hard to find some decent bread. I miss the good food I grew up with in NJ.

190 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:17:47am

re: #180 Killgore Trout

It borders on nontroversy. The clip was shortened and it does spin things slightly different than the whole quote. However, trying to verify the accuracy of the full quote doesn't help Mitt.

What agency required 33 pages to change an address? You can do change of address at the USPS on a single page form. Most change of address forms are a single page.

IRS Form 8822 - change of address form. 1 2-sided page (2d page is instructions).

DEEERS and TRICARE programs? Can be changed online.

Social Security annual statements rely on IRS information (see Form 8822). To change address for receipt of Retirement, Disability, Medicare or Survivor benefits
you can: (1) Go online; (2) call the SS at [no phone numbers allowed] (TTY [no phone numbers allowed]) between 7 a.m. to 7 p.m., Monday through Friday or (3) contact your local Social Security office.

So, to recap, no where is there a 33 page change of address form required, and in most instances you can do so with one page, or go online and do it electronically.

191 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:19:47am

re: #187 Gus

WaWa doesn't have an automatic machine. It has an automated ordering machine - you get to customize the order, and it prints the receipt for you and issues an order to the kitchen staff to build your sandwich to order.

The WaWa sandwiches are pretty good for convenience store fare. Don't expect gourmet stuff (though their coffee selection is pretty good).

192 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:20:11am

re: #189 NJDhockeyfan

Down here in Virginia it's hard to find some decent bread. I miss the good food I grew up with in NJ.

Ditto. They had a "real" sub shop down here in Littleton, CO. Haven't really tried any other places. Well, the place closed and they put up some remodeled mall for the blander population. Haven't been down their in a couple of years. You ever have those round sandwiches from some national chain? Forgot the name. They taste gross.

193 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:21:25am

re: #191 lawhawk

WaWa doesn't have an automatic machine. It has an automated ordering machine - you get to customize the order, and it prints the receipt for you and issues an order to the kitchen staff to build your sandwich to order.

The WaWa sandwiches are pretty good for convenience store fare. Don't expect gourmet stuff (though their coffee selection is pretty good).

Ah. Thanks. Haven't really been paying attention. Total blowhole story really. Seriously. The crap people concern themselves with today. I haven't been to a WaWa since I escaped the East Coast.

194 iossarian  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:21:43am

re: #190 lawhawk

So, to recap, no where is there a 33 page change of address form required, and in most instances you can do so with one page, or go online and do it electronically.

Sorry, your fact doesn't fit the lie. Discarded.

195 iossarian  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:24:24am

I now want this optometrist guy to come forwards. The Romney camp could call him "Joe the Optometrist", to pick a name at random.

Then it'll turn out that he's not an optometrist, the form wasn't 33 pages long, he didn't change his address and he's not called Joe.

196 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:25:20am

At the NC Democratic Party State Convention in NC they had many Resolutions for Consideration including this one:

26. BRINGING A JUST PEACE TO THE MIDDLE
EAST: ISRAEL AND PALESTINE (4TH CD)

June 16, 2012

WHEREAS, U.S. provides Israel $3 billion annually
in military aid;

WHEREAS, the Israeli occupation,
disenfranchisement and impoverishment of
significant numbers of the Palestinian population, and
Israel’s overwhelming military might and its role as
the only nuclear power threaten stability in a region
witnessing increased demands for democracy and an
end to autocratic rule;

WHEREAS, Israel uses this aid to continue its
illegal occupation, demolition of Palestinian homes,
expansion of existing illegal settlements built on
expropriated Palestinian land, and a continued
blockade of essential goods from Gaza, a blockade
causing a UN documented humanitarian crisis;

WHEREAS, U.S. military aid has caused increased
violence and insecurity to Israelis, Palestinians, and
helps subvert any prospect for peace;

WHEREAS, Israel's human rights violations and its
illegal occupation and settlements violate
International and U.S. law, including the U.S. Arms
Export Control Act of 1976; and

WHEREAS, the escalating tension between Israel,
the Palestinians, and the Arab world in the Middle
East threatens the peace and stability of the region
and the world;

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the North
Carolina Democratic Party hold its elected congress
members and senators accountable for helping end
our government's role in continuing the Israeli
Palestinian tragedy by making the human rights of
both peoples central to U.S. foreign policy by ending
Israel's illegal occupation, by advocating for a viable
Palestinian state, and membership of that state in the
United Nations;

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the North
Carolina Democratic Party urge its congressional
delegation to support the following principles that
will insure a just and secure peace for both peoples,
including:

Bringing all parties, including Hamas, to the table to
negotiate an end to the Israeli Occupation and a
secure peace based on the 1967 borders;
An immediate end to settlement expansion and
removal of existing settlements in the West Bank and
East Jerusalem;

An end to Palestinian house demolitions;
A halt to further construction of the wall;
An end to the Gaza blockade;
The establishment of a nuclear free zone in the
Middle East;

Redirecting U.S. Military aid to Israel to promote
social and economic development for peace in both
Israel and Palestine;

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the North
Carolina Democratic Party press our NC
Congressional delegation to demand the State
Department implement Federal legislation that
prohibits use of U.S. military aid to support human
rights violations, breaches of international law and
UN Security Council Resolutions.

Ugh.

197 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:26:41am

re: #196 NJDhockeyfan

Was it passed, or just put up for consideration?

198 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:29:32am

re: #196 NJDhockeyfan

At the NC Democratic Party State Convention in NC they had many Resolutions for Consideration including this one:

Ugh.

Could use some tweaking but that seems like a reasonable resolution.

199 iossarian  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:31:27am

DemocratsAntiSemitismJimmyCarterBarbraStreisand

200 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:33:33am

re: #198 Gus

Ugh.

Could use some tweaking but that seems like a reasonable resolution.

Maybe some major tweaking. It's kinda one sided.

201 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:34:10am

re: #200 NJDhockeyfan

Maybe some major tweaking. It's kinda one sided.

Maybe. My people are from Argentina, Spain and Italy so it's really not my problem.

202 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:34:11am

re: #198 Gus

Ugh.

Could use some tweaking but that seems like a reasonable resolution.

The one right after it for consideration as well was:

27. ISRAEL PALESTINE (2ND/4TH CD)
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
NC Democratic Party State Convention
Resolutions for Consideration - June 16, 2012 Page 13 of 33
WHEREAS, all inhabitants of Israel/Palestine have
the inherent right to “life, liberty and the pursuit of
happiness” (Quoting Thos. Jefferson); and
WHEREAS, such rights are secured to each person
by participation as an equal citizen of a democratic
and sovereign state;
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the
government of the United States support these rights
for all, equally.

Not very specific, but takes a moral stance regarding the area without specifying interference or pinning blame.

203 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:34:55am

War!

204 iossarian  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:35:16am

re: #200 NJDhockeyfan

Maybe some major tweaking. It's kinda one sided.

They should just insert "and we should drop bombs indiscriminately on population centers in the Arab world". That should get the Republicans to the negotiating table.

205 erik_t  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:35:43am

re: #163 thedopefishlives

Morning Lizardim. A spectacular thunderstorm woke me up at 3:45 this morning. It's supposed to clear off and bring in terrible heat, with another round of storms to close the day. I'd just as soon skip the heat and keep the storms coming, it's more fun that way.

I looked at the radar... y'all got hammered. How many more million dollars of coffee sales this morning in Minny?

206 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:37:28am

re: #205 erik_t

I looked at the radar... y'all got hammered. How many more million dollars of coffee sales this morning in Minny?

Cloudy here today and warming up. Calling for highs in the upper 90s for tomorrow and Thursday. And then it will rain for the weekend.

207 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:37:35am

Hmm. Classy.

Adidas cancels 'shackle' shoes after outcry
By Jesse Solomon, CNN
updated 9:02 AM EDT, Tue June 19, 2012

(CNN) -- German sports apparel maker Adidas withdrew its plans to sell a controversial sneaker featuring affixed rubber shackles after the company generated significant criticism when advertising the shoe on its Facebook page.

The high-top sneakers, dubbed the JS Roundhouse Mids, were expected to release in August, according to the Adidas Originals Facebook page. "Got a sneaker game so hot you lock your kicks to your ankles?" a caption below a photo of the sneakers read.

The June 14 post prompted plenty of criticism from around the web, with many of those commenting saying they felt the shackle invoked the painful image of slavery...

208 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:37:35am

Here's something you don't see every day
Octopus hitches ride on dolphin's genitals

An octopus got the joyride of its life last week when it somehow became stuck on the belly of a bottlenose dolphin in the Ionian Sea. More specifically, the tentacled sea creature had a seat on the dolphin's genital slit.

Researchers with the Ionian Dolphin Project, part of the Tethys Research Institute, were observing a foursome of dolphins near the island of Kalamos off the west coast of Greece. Suddenly, one of the dolphins leapt out of the water with something strange dangling from its stomach. It wasn't until the researchers examined their photos of the leap that they realized the unidentified object was an octopus.

209 iossarian  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:39:01am

re: #207 Gus

Hmm. Classy.

Adidas cancels 'shackle' shoes after outcry
By Jesse Solomon, CNN
updated 9:02 AM EDT, Tue June 19, 2012

It's a fine line between crazy and stupid.

210 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:39:32am

re: #208 Killgore Trout

Here's something you don't see every day
Octopus hitches ride on dolphin's genitals

Talk about "balling."

211 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:39:44am

re: #190 lawhawk

So, to recap, no where is there a 33 page change of address form required, and in most instances you can do so with one page, or go online and do it electronically.

I've heard from wingnuts that the 33 page form is for Medicare providers. It seems to be a thinly true claim in that the CMS-855 Medicare Enrollment Form can be used to make changes of address by provider.

Making changes to a physicians medicare provider information can be difficult. Whether it is a change of address, adding an office address or changing other information, there are certain forms that must be filled out and sent to your medicare intermediary. The CMS 855 forms are generally used to apply to be a medicare provider or to make changes. For a new application see this Medicare web site. Any address change, phone or fax number change, name, specialty, contact person or billing agency must be reported to medicare within 30 days of the change. For changes only the section of the CMS 855B you are changing plus section 15 need to be completed and returned.

The CMS 855A form makes the claim that providers can use the PECOS (Provider Enrollment, Chain and Ownership System) on the internet to make changes to their enrollment information. I'm not sure what scope of changes are possible via this method though.

Of course lost in the derp is the fact that Medicare payments to providers can be huge, and that fraud in the system is a real, documented problem. Making sure that crucial information gets cross referenced for a change in where the checks get sent is probably an important way of preventing abuse.

212 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:40:46am

re: #206 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Cloudy here today and warming up. Calling for highs in the upper 90s for tomorrow and Thursday. And then it will rain for the weekend.

You're getting the heat wave that is just on its way out here. Tomorrow it's supposed to be back down below 80 degrees. Should be beautiful weather for softball on Thursday, provided the ground dries out enough.

213 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:40:59am

re: #209 iossarian

It's a fine line between crazy and stupid.

Yeah. It's disgusting. They pulled it but it shows how clueless Adidas is. Jesse Jackson gets it right:

One of Adidas' most high-profile condemnations came from the Rev. Jesse Jackson.

"The attempt to commercialize and make popular more than 200 years of human degradation, where blacks were considered three-fifths human by our Constitution is offensive, appalling and insensitive," Jackson said in a statement Monday, prior to Adidas's decision to withdraw them from the marketplace.

My first thought was incarceration and the US prison industry, etc. Given that we are imprisoning more people per capita than any other country in the world.

214 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:42:53am

re: #213 Gus

Jesse Jackson gets it right:

I never thought I'd hear those words. Ever.

215 iossarian  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:43:07am

re: #211 goddamnedfrank

I've heard from wingnuts that the 33 page form is for Medicare providers. It seems to be a thinly true claim in that the CMS-855 Medicare Enrollment Form can be used to make changes of address by provider.

The CMS 855A form makes the claim that providers can use the PECOS (Provider Enrollment, Chain and Ownership System) on the internet to make changes to their enrollment information. I'm not sure what scope of changes are possible via this method though.

Of course lost in the derp is the fact that Medicare payments to providers can be huge, and that fraud in the system is a real, documented problem. Making sure that crucial information gets cross referenced for a change in where the checks get sent is probably an important way of preventing abuse.

Exactly. Of course, this kind of bureaucracy is part and parcel of a healthcare system that relies on payment for service (and a dizzying array of sources for that payment) rather than direct compensation.

Which is not to say that single payer eliminates the complexity and possibility of fraud altogether, just that a substantial part of the savings comes from overhead reduction.

216 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:43:32am

re: #214 thedopefishlives

I never thought I'd hear those words. Ever.

It's part of the LGF healing process. ;)

217 iossarian  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:45:53am

re: #214 thedopefishlives

I never thought I'd hear those words. Ever.

It's unfortunate that Jesse Jackson is so wrong on some things, because he's right on quite a few others.

Not that this matters to the ooga booga crowd.

218 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:45:59am

So our project team has just learned that for the fourth time in as many months, we are getting moved to a new room. This is really getting old, and it's completely ruining the team flow and dynamic. Of course, Corporate doesn't care about these things, they just want their shiny corner offices reserved for fat cats in suits who don't do anything but get paid anyway.

219 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:46:16am

Saudi man executed for 'witchcraft and sorcery'

A Saudi man has been beheaded on charges of sorcery and witchcraft, the state news agency SPA says.

I'm still amazed. A man is beheaded by a system based on things that don't exist for a practice based on things that don't exist

220 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:47:32am

re: #216 Gus

It's part of the LGF healing process. ;)

I've still got a ways to go. My wingnut upbringing isn't willing to give up without a fight.

221 Amory Blaine  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:48:16am

If the chain holds with applied stress I see potential injuries. Imagine a 200 lb guys toe stepping between the chain and your leg while on the basketball court. Do the chains only come in prison orange? Can I get a red, white and blue one?

222 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:48:20am

re: #215 iossarian

Exactly. Of course, this kind of bureaucracy is part and parcel of a healthcare system that relies on payment for service (and a dizzying array of sources for that payment) rather than direct compensation.

Which is not to say that single payer eliminates the complexity and possibility of fraud altogether, just that a substantial part of the savings comes from overhead reduction.

Also, if all a provider is doing is changing their address then they aren't filling out the entire form again. They're digging up their saved copy of the .pdf, updating a few lines, printing the revised document, signing it and sending it in.

223 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:48:24am

re: #208 Killgore Trout

Here's something you don't see every day
Octopus hitches ride on dolphin's genitals

Depends on the clubs you hang out at!!

NTTAWWT!!!

224 iossarian  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:48:33am

re: #219 Gus

Saudi man executed for 'witchcraft and sorcery'

I'm still amazed. A man is beheaded by a system based on things that don't exist for a practice based on things that don't exist

But the people running that country are our best buddies! Not like that monster Saddam who had to be deposed at all costs for the good of the innocent Iraqi people!

Now where did I put those pallets of money? I had them here a moment ago...

225 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:49:15am

re: #211 goddamnedfrank

So, they're bitching about a form's length when the information requested is designed to reduce the chances for fraud and waste (one of the GOP's longstanding matras about reducing spending is to go after waste and fraud).

Gotcha.

226 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:51:04am

Does anyone else get a display issue when they open Top 10 Comments where the avatars are massively offset from the comment and block some of the text?

(I'm running IE8. Yes, I know, I know, but it's what is installed on the work laptop.)

227 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:52:46am

re: #208 Killgore Trout

Here's something you don't see every day
Octopus hitches ride on dolphin's genitals

Is that an octopus on your genital slit or are you just happy to see me?

228 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:53:39am

re: #218 thedopefishlives

So our project team has just learned that for the fourth time in as many months, we are getting moved to a new room. This is really getting old, and it's completely ruining the team flow and dynamic. Of course, Corporate doesn't care about these things, they just want their shiny corner offices reserved for fat cats in suits who don't do anything but get paid anyway.

hehe. I just get moved between floors in the building. With the projects winding down I presume the company will give up the temporary lease where I am now and move us back upstairs into the fully furnished floor. Maybe even getting my old cubicle back - which still has two file drawers full of my papers and miscellaneous stuff in it anyways.

229 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:53:53am

re: #225 lawhawk

So, they're bitching about a form's length when the information requested is designed to reduce the chances for fraud and waste (one of the GOP's longstanding matras about reducing spending is to go after waste and fraud).

Gotcha.

It's like Obama's 3 million dollar "overhead projector" that turned out to be a Zeiss Universarium for the Haden Planetarium. There's a purposeful downplaying of contextually crucial details.

230 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:54:27am

re: #224 iossarian

But the people running that country are our best buddies! Not like that monster Saddam who had to be deposed at all costs for the good of the innocent Iraqi people!

Now where did I put those pallets of money? I had them here a moment ago...

The two nosy cops dumped them into the harbor along with your car about five minutes ago...
;)

231 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:55:23am

re: #219 Gus

Saudi man executed for 'witchcraft and sorcery'

I'm still amazed. A man is beheaded by a system based on things that don't exist for a practice based on things that don't exist

Sounds like Sharia Law at its most extreme form of application. Just the very thing we should be up in arms and fighting against...unless they are selling us oil and buying our weapons.

We really ought to be in a position to put political and economic pressure on regimes to change and become more modern & humane, but in the case of Saudi Arabia and most of the Gulf States, we have to just keep smiling and ignore their excesses...

232 iossarian  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:55:39am

re: #222 goddamnedfrank

Also, if all a provider is doing is changing their address then they aren't filling out the entire form again. They're digging up their saved copy of the .pdf, updating a few lines, printing the revised document, signing it and sending it in.

To be fair, there is a lot of apparent inefficiency in some government information gathering. The problem is that it's not clear that you're actually dealing with inefficiency, as opposed to unavoidable complexity.

Take, for example, the FAFSA (the application for student financial aid, for those a few years removed from college). This is a five-page form (last time I checked) with a lot of very detailed questions and scary disclaimers about how you can go to jail if you misrepresent your income or assets. And research shows that you can capture around 90% of the information with just three to five questions (basically family income and, I think, the value of your parents' home).

The problem is that the other questions cover a lot of areas where people (like our friend Mitt Romney) like to hide their money, such as luxury equestrianism businesses. So you have a choice between giving out Pell Grants to the Romney offspring* or making everyone who wants to go to college answer a question about whether their father takes tax deductions for dancing horses.

So it's a bit of a political conundrum. I personally would go for the short form and accept that a few smug suits are going to game the system, but I can see why other people choose the other course of action.

* Of course, this is presented to the average voter as "inner-city" families scamming the welfare system, with their refrigerators and TVs.

233 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:58:41am

re: #215 iossarian

Speaking of health care costs and benefits, the Supreme Court issued a ruling on whether drug reps are classified as inside or outside salespersons under the Fair Labor Standards Act. In a 5-4 ruling (Alito, joined by Chief Justice Roberts, Scalia, Kennedy and Thomas) found that the reps were outside salespersons and not entitled to certain additional benefits, including overtime:

In his opinion, Alito noted the DOL’s vague language and problematic definitions, but he also wrote that the two GSK drug reps, who earned an average of more than $70,000 a year, were hardly the kind of employees that the Fair Labor Standards Act was intended to protect.

David Finegold, a senior vice president at Rutgers University with an expertise in the biopharmaceutical industry, said the opinion was not surprising given the Supreme Court’s recent spate of split decisions along the same idealogical lines.

“The historic precedent is that they (sales reps) haven’t been subject to overtime and the court was essentially saying, we’re staying with the status quo,’’ Finegold said.

The industry’s leading trade group, Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America, had argued before the Supreme Court in April that an opinion against GlaxoSmithKline would result in pharmaceutical companies paying out billions in back overtime pay.

Matthew Bennett, the trade group’s senior vice president, expressed support for the court’s decision. “The Supreme Court’s opinion is consistent with the longstanding sales practices of our member companies,’’
he said yesterday in a statement.

234 iossarian  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:59:17am

For those readers who are into issues of class in the US, the origins of the FAFSA are quite interesting I think - it arose out of the rather progressive attempts by the Ivy League schools to ensure that they were spending their financial aid money on genuinely needy students, rather than engaging in pointless efforts to compete with each other for wealthy academic stars.

The original forms had questions about the make and model of the family car, I believe.

235 Mattand  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:59:34am

re: #219 Gus

Saudi man executed for 'witchcraft and sorcery'

I'm still amazed. A man is beheaded by a system based on things that don't exist for a practice based on things that don't exist

In my darker moments, I sometimes think there's regions of the US that are about to slip into the Christian version of this madness.

236 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 7:59:43am

re: #231 Expand Your Ground

Sounds like Sharia Law at its most extreme form of application. Just the very thing we should be up in arms and fighting against...unless they are selling us oil and buying our weapons.

We really ought to be in a position to put political and economic pressure on regimes to change and become more modern & humane, but in the case of Saudi Arabia and most of the Gulf States, we have to just keep smiling and ignore their excesses...

It's the year 2012 and some human cultures are still executing people for 'witchcraft and sorcery'.

237 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:01:15am

re: #235 Mattand

In my darker moments, I sometimes think there's regions of the US that are about to slip into the Christian version of this madness.

They probably would if they thought they could get away with it.

238 iossarian  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:01:26am

re: #233 lawhawk

Of course - the drug companies aren't going to want to share any of that lovely money with the people who actually, you know, work for them.

Yet another instance of a Republican mantra ("companies need to be successful because they look after their employees") being, at its core, a pile of shite.

239 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:01:37am

re: #235 Mattand

In my darker moments, I sometimes think there's regions of the US that are about to slip into the Christian version of this madness.

Yes. Maybe, who knows. But that still leaves one poor dummy that was beheaded for "witchcraft and sorcery." I'm sure there are others on "beheading row" over there.

240 Amory Blaine  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:02:45am

re: #236 Gus

Dust off the dunking chair!

241 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:02:53am

Just like there's people in Saudi Arabia that want to put a stop to that crap.

242 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:03:08am

re: #219 Gus

Saudi man executed for 'witchcraft and sorcery'

I'm still amazed. A man is beheaded by a system based on things that don't exist for a practice based on things that don't exist

WTF.

243 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:05:14am
In possession of books and talismans.

Seriously? WTF is wrong with humanity?

244 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:07:11am

re: #241 Gus

Just like there's people in Saudi Arabia that want to put a stop to that crap.

I don't know if there's enough popular support within Saudi Arabia. A better candidate would be Iran but they aren't quite to the tipping point yet. Saudis have a very long way to go yet.

245 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:07:22am

re: #243 Varek Raith

Seriously? WTF is wrong with humanity?

Humanity is a long term project.

246 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:07:25am

re: #240 Amory Blaine

Dust off the dunking chair!

Prepare the soft cushions!

247 erik_t  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:08:25am

re: #244 Killgore Trout

I don't know if there's enough popular support within Saudi Arabia. A better candidate would be Iran but they aren't quite to the tipping point yet. Saudis have a very long way to go yet.

If your country is named after your ruling family, you're unlikely to be terribly far along on the enlightenment index. Just a general observation.

248 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:10:59am

re: #244 Killgore Trout

I don't know if there's enough popular support within Saudi Arabia. A better candidate would be Iran but they aren't quite to the tipping point yet. Saudis have a very long way to go yet.

I was thinking in terms of influence. There are those in high places in Saudi Arabia that are against these things -- however few. If they speak out they can be highly influential. Not holding my breath.

249 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:12:12am

re: #247 erik_t

Just a general observation.

You have to keep that private in Saudi Arabia or receive corporal punishment

/

250 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:12:49am

re: #248 Gus

I was thinking in terms of influence. There are those in high places in Saudi Arabia that are against these things -- however few. If they speak out they can be highly influential. Not holding my breath.

If they speak out they could also find themselves with no breath TO hold!!

251 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:13:10am

re: #244 Killgore Trout

Well the Crown Prince who just died was against any kind of reforms, including any kind of extension of rights to women. The new Crown Prince (and Saudi Arabia does seem to be going through quite a few of them within the last year or so - despite the fact that King Abdullah isn't in good health himself; he's outlasted his last two successors) seems to be okay with the King's proposed modernization plans but doesn't intend on making any drastic changes. Slow and limited change - all to preserve the power of the monarchy.

And, says Lacey, Salman is likely to maintain the desert-tortoise-slow but steady path toward modernization first embarked on by Abdullah in 2005. Women will drive, eventually. And he will not interfere with Abdullah’s commitment to let women vote and run in the 2015 local council elections. “Under Salman, we are going to see moderate progress, with a firm hand,” says Lacey. “Saudi is a conservative country, and all monarchies survive by being conservative.”

252 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:13:21am

Sheriff Joe arrests six-year-old girl suspected of leading cartel

On the same day that President Obama announced an immigration policy that will make it easier for young undocumented immigrants to remain in Los United Estates, Arizona’s numero uno douchebag, Sheriff Joe Arpaio, announced the arrest of a six-year-old girl suspected of leading the infamous Cártel de Elmo de Los Cookie Monster Ganga.

The Arizona Bugle reported that the girl was with 15 other cartel members who were traveling to the Midwest and northeast United States. Also arrested: Big Bird, Mr. Snuffleupagus, Prairie Dawn, Curly Bear, Bert, Grover and Guy Smiley. According to Chris Hegstrom, spokesman for the Sheriff’s Office, this is the “single biggest cartel bust” in Maricopa County history.

And even though the girl was old enough to get arrested, she was not old enough to have her name released, according to Hegstrom. “This is huge for us and for Joe – just huge. Arpaio is an expert when it comes to sleuthing dangerous things…like children and phony birth certificates.”

[...]

Image: cookiemonster300.jpg

253 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:13:46am

re: #245 Gus

Humanity is a long term project.

I quit.

254 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:14:20am

re: #253 Varek Raith

I quit.

Yep. Fire up the bong and just watch!

//

255 iossarian  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:15:10am

re: #249 sattv4u2


Just a general observation.

You have to keep that private in Saudi Arabia or receive corporal punishment

/

There's a kernel of truth right there.

256 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:16:14am

re: #255 iossarian

There's a kernel of truth right there.

In general.

257 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:16:24am

re: #255 iossarian

Oh captain, my captain.

258 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:17:20am

Good morning Lizard-nam! Got moved, semi-unpacked and the local DSL company guy stopped by this morning to hook us back into the world. Anything terribly interesting happening? Any good stories since Saturday afternoon?

259 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:19:05am

Maybe the NC Dems can add a resolution about the Saudi executions to their platform. //

260 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:19:14am

re: #258 William Barnett-Lewis

Good morning Lizard-nam! Got moved, semi-unpacked and the local DSL company guy stopped by this morning to hook us back into the world. Anything terribly interesting happening? Any good stories since Saturday afternoon?

We are now officially in Purgatory.
You missed quite the show I'm afraid.

261 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:20:08am

Maybe Gary Johnson isn't such a bad guy after all.

262 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:22:08am
263 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:24:42am

Or maybe it is important. Who knows. I'm really getting tired of politic and politicians. Can't take it any more. This cycle of 2 years of non-stop political BS for 2 years is draining. I need a sail boat and a sketch book. Or something.

264 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:25:40am

re: #263 Gus

Or maybe it is important. Who knows. I'm really getting tired of politic and politicians. Can't take it any more. This cycle of 2 years of non-stop political BS for 2 years is draining. I need a sail boat and a sketch book. Or something.

I find a stack of paper targets and a medium-caliber rifle to be very therapeutic. Likewise with a case of clay pigeons and a 12-gauge.

265 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:25:41am

re: #191 lawhawk

WaWa doesn't have an automatic machine. It has an automated ordering machine - you get to customize the order, and it prints the receipt for you and issues an order to the kitchen staff to build your sandwich to order.

The WaWa sandwiches are pretty good for convenience store fare. Don't expect gourmet stuff (though their coffee selection is pretty good).

We drove from Detroit to NYC, taking I-80, sampling coffee all along the way. WaWa is hands down THE BEST COFFEE we tasted.

266 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:25:51am

re: #263 Gus

Or maybe it is important. Who knows. I'm really getting tired of politic and politicians. Can't take it any more. This cycle of 2 years of non-stop political BS for 2 years is draining. I need a sail boat and a sketch book. Or something.

Do what I do.
Go up into the mountains for a week or two of camping.

267 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:28:51am

I missed the group camping getaway this year. It was down in Austin back in March. :p

Might be time to simply plan a solo bike trip somewhere.

268 allegro  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:29:58am

Jeez, dogs and thunder. We got a noisy little squall with a pretty good, short drenching rain and from the first rumble I got buried under 3 dogs (we have a guest pooper for a couple of days). No doubt, they are covering me with their shivering, furry, licking doggie bodies to protect me from the storm, chivalrous little guys that they are.

Getting any work done is seriously challenging. This is supposed to go on all day. :/

269 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:31:54am

re: #268 allegro

Jeez, dogs and thunder. We got a noisy little squall with a pretty good, short drenching rain and from the first rumble I got buried under 3 dogs (we have a guest pooper for a couple of days). No doubt, they are covering me with their shivering, furry, licking doggie bodies to protect me from the storm, chivalrous little guys that they are.

Getting any work done is seriously challenging. This is supposed to go on all day. :/

A minor advantage of having a practically deaf Feline Overlord is that he is no longer disturbed by thunder and fireworks. The cats used to really hate the 4th of July (and roughly the week before and after).

270 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:33:21am

re: #264 thedopefishlives

I find a stack of paper targets and a medium-caliber rifle to be very therapeutic. Likewise with a case of clay pigeons and a 12-gauge.

Nothing like an old military bolt action & a mad minute to make things better ;)

271 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:35:52am

re: #262 Gus

Oh jeez. Really important shit here:

Action in Trenton: N.J. lawmakers consider bills on tanning, cell phone use, Internet gambling and more

LOL...you think they might have some rather more important issues to attend to.

Here's another one... Charles Schumer is all over the maple syrup problem we are having...

Schumer introduces farm bill amendment promoting maple syrup production

...The amendment allows the secretary of Agriculture to introduce grants to states and tribal areas in an effort to promote maple syrup production through education and research, natural resource sustainability within the maple syrup industry, market production and efforts to expand maple sugaring activities. The secretary can also issue grants to states and tribal areas that make land available for "maple-sugaring activities."

Last year he was on to this huge issue too. Guess what happens if you sell fake maple syrup?

...The amendment isn't the first piece of maple syrup legislation Schumer introduced. In November 2011 Schumer, along with five other senators, including Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand (D-N.Y.), introduced a bill that outlawed selling fake maple syrup. The Maple Agriculture Protection and Law Enforcement (MAPLE) Act made selling fake maple syrup a felony offense with a penalty of up to five years in prison.

Heh.

272 allegro  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:36:04am

re: #269 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

A minor advantage of having a practically deaf Feline Overlord is that he is no longer disturbed by thunder and fireworks. The cats used to really hate the 4th of July (and roughly the week before and after).

One of my old girls some years ago who previously went nutso during storms went deaf. We all slept a whole lot better after that. Being deaf didn't seem to bother her in the least but it was kind of a pain for us to have to chase her and touch her to get her attention. RIP Pooby Bear - you were a good girl.

273 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:36:34am

Sandmonkey on recent events in Egypt. Worth reading.

Chapter’s end!

In my humble opinion, today concludes the end of the first chapter of the Egyptian revolution. I know that other people have it divided into sections in regards to original 18 days, elections, parliament and presidential elections, but I don’t subscribe to that. We went into the revolution with the same thinking that people like me had back in 2005: we must remove Mubarak, stop his son from inheriting us, and get democratic elections. All of us had those goals and not a single vision on what to do afterwards, because the removal of Mubarak was such a pipedream. So, you successfully dethrone a tyrant, and you have neither plan nor vision on what to do afterwards, and no real understanding of the regime itself, then, quite naturally, you fall flat on your face, and we have been doing that for the past 18 months. This has been our story: the removal of a dictator and the repercussions that follow. That’s what’s been happening. This ends today, and the new chapter starts, for better or worse.

Continues.

274 kirkspencer  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:37:41am

re: #232 iossarian

To be fair, there is a lot of apparent inefficiency in some government information gathering. The problem is that it's not clear that you're actually dealing with inefficiency, as opposed to unavoidable complexity.

Take, for example, the FAFSA (the application for student financial aid, for those a few years removed from college). This is a five-page form (last time I checked) with a lot of very detailed questions and scary disclaimers about how you can go to jail if you misrepresent your income or assets. And research shows that you can capture around 90% of the information with just three to five questions (basically family income and, I think, the value of your parents' home).

The problem is that the other questions cover a lot of areas where people (like our friend Mitt Romney) like to hide their money, such as luxury equestrianism businesses. So you have a choice between giving out Pell Grants to the Romney offspring* or making everyone who wants to go to college answer a question about whether their father takes tax deductions for dancing horses.

So it's a bit of a political conundrum. I personally would go for the short form and accept that a few smug suits are going to game the system, but I can see why other people choose the other course of action.

* Of course, this is presented to the average voter as "inner-city" families scamming the welfare system, with their refrigerators and TVs.

Like the rule of thumb says, each 9 is worth a hundred. (For each decimal place you add to success, multiply the cost by 100.)

275 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:38:02am

re: #271 NJDhockeyfan

Yeah. Maple sugar. In the next breath he'll be endorsing Mayor Bloomberg's "soda ban limitations." Seriously.

276 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:38:42am

re: #275 Gus

Yeah. Maple sugar. In the next breath he'll be endorsing Mayor Bloomberg's "soda ban limitations." Seriously.

And popcorn too.

277 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:39:04am

re: #276 NJDhockeyfan

And popcorn too.

Popcorn? Don't tell me...

278 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:39:11am

Speaking of 'sugar', I am sick and tired of those misleading high fructose corn crap ads.
/rant

279 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:40:00am

re: #271 NJDhockeyfan

selling fake maple syrup a felony offense with a penalty of up to five years in prison.

It's even worse than that

While in prison, all your meals are pancakes,,, with NO syrup!!!

280 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:40:00am

Each year. 1.234 people die from "Popcorn Lung" around the world.

Help stop the madness.

Tell your legislators to ban microwave popcorn.

//

281 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:40:29am

Fake maple syrup?
WTF is that?
Who cares?!?!

282 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:40:35am

re: #278 Varek Raith

Speaking of 'sugar', I am sick and tired of those misleading high fructose corn crap ads.
/rant

Yep. That's bullshit too.

283 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:40:56am

It's ALL bullshit!

Let's go camping.

//

284 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:41:01am

re: #281 Varek Raith

Fake maple syrup?
WTF is that?
Who cares?!?!

Comes from fake maple trees

Grown by fake Vermonters

285 allegro  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:41:35am

re: #278 Varek Raith

Speaking of 'sugar', I am sick and tired of those misleading high fructose corn crap ads.
/rant

Indeed. The low fat and no fat craze that resulted in massive additions of that stuff to make up the flavor difference has resulted in majorly increased obesity and diabetes. Nasty stuff in the quantities it's used.

286 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:42:07am

re: #284 sattv4u2

Comes from fake maple trees

Grown by fake Vermonters

I never knew!
FAKE RAGEFACE!

287 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:43:06am

re: #281 Varek Raith

It's a sop to North Country farmer/producers of maple syrup in NYS.

Heck, it would just be easier to ban Mrs. Buttersworth or Log Cabin pancake syrup. That's your promotion of maple syrup right there.

/

288 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:43:08am

re: #210 HappyWarrior

Talk about "balling."

Octopus was the fifth wheel in a foursome.

289 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:43:11am

re: #281 Varek Raith

Fake maple syrup?
WTF is that?
Who cares?!?!

Chuck Schumer cares.

290 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:43:20am

Ugh. Sandmonkey still links to Jim Hoft. Why? Some people don't really pay attention to shit like that.

291 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:43:31am

Glad to know the economic crisis is over!
FAKE MAPLE SYRUP!

292 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:43:34am

re: #261 wrenchwench

The alleged victim told cops that his attacker swung frozen sausage links at him before hitting him in the head with a wrench

[Link: www.nbcconnecticut.com...]

Can you explain your whereabouts on the night in question?

293 ShaunP  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:45:11am

re: #292 sattv4u2

The alleged victim told cops that his attacker swung frozen sausage links at him before hitting him in the head with a wrench

[Link: www.nbcconnecticut.com...]

Can you explain your whereabouts on the night in question?

Amazingly, not Florida...
*whew*

294 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:45:54am

Saudi Arabia scares me. Saw a Locked Up Abroad on Nat Geo about a gay British nurse who was sentenced to death for homosexual acts. The guy got to go home thankfully. But damn killing someone or even imprisoning someone for consensual sex acts just seems so whacked out here in a supposedly enlightened time.

295 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:46:27am

13 rockets from Gaza in recent hours; Hamas claims launches

Palestinian terrorists in the Gaza Strip fired 13 rockets into Israeli territory on Tuesday afternoon, with Hamas claiming responsibility for at least 10 launches in the past 24 hours. The IDF said aircraft carried out a targeted strike against the launching squad responsible for the latest barrage. At least one person was critically injured in that strike and at least four have been killed in the past 24 hours, according to Palestinian reports.

Including the latest rockets, which landed in open fields in the Eshkol Regional Council, Palestinian terrorists have fired 19 rockets into Israel since Monday. There were no injuries or damage reported in any of the attacks.

296 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:46:42am

re: #292 sattv4u2

The alleged victim told cops that his attacker swung frozen sausage links at him before hitting him in the head with a wrench

[Link: www.nbcconnecticut.com...]

Can you explain your whereabouts on the night in question?

Don't bring frozen foods to a wrench fight.

297 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:47:06am

re: #292 sattv4u2

The alleged victim told cops that his attacker swung frozen sausage links at him before hitting him in the head with a wrench

[Link: www.nbcconnecticut.com...]

Can you explain your whereabouts on the night in question?

Oh, man, there is so much wrong with that story..

Bicyclists are my friends. Sausages are my friends. And for sure tools are my friends!

And my neighbor and I go grocery shopping together every Sunday morning...she'll vouch for me.

298 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:47:21am

re: #296 Varek Raith

Don't bring frozen foods to a wrench fight.

"Sir,, have you registered those sausages with the ATF?"

299 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:49:51am

And on Sunday morning I heard a guy on the radio say this about somebody messing things up: '...and then, just to throw a monkey into the wrench...'

300 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:50:33am

Image: 999x.jpg

Dharun Ravi (C), convicted of a bias crime for using a webcam to spy on his gay roommate's tryst, leaves Middlesex County jail with his attorney Steve Altman (L) in North Brunswick, New Jersey June 19, 2012. Per state regulations, after completing 20 days of his 30-day sentence, Ravi received 10 days off for good behavior.

301 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:53:33am

re: #290 Gus

Ugh. Sandmonkey still links to Jim Hoft. Why? Some people don't really pay attention to shit like that.

My guess is that he hasn't paid much attention to US politics for the past few years. Although the American left has been supportive of the revolution he might feel they're too soft on Palestinian terrorism and the Muslim Bros.

302 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:54:45am

re: #301 Killgore Trout

My guess is that he hasn't paid much attention to US politics for the past few years. Although the American left has been supportive of the revolution he might feel they're too soft on Palestinian terrorism and the Muslim Bros.

Just as many on the right would've preferred no revolutions in the ME at all.

303 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 8:55:35am

re: #301 Killgore Trout

My guess is that he hasn't paid much attention to US politics for the past few years. Although the American left has been supportive of the revolution he might feel they're too soft on Palestinian terrorism and the Muslim Bros.

I think it's the former. He's rather progressive which is why his blog roll shrunk considerably in the past years. That included Pamela Geller taking a dump on him for some crazy reason or another.

304 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 9:00:29am

Uh oh.

Male tea drinkers 'at greater risk of prostate cancer'

We're doomed.

Let's go camping.

305 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 9:01:54am

re: #303 Gus

I think it's the former. He's rather progressive which is why his blog roll shrunk considerably in the past years. That included Pamela Geller taking a dump on him for some crazy reason or another.

Probably. He might still be in the neo-con mindset which is now gone from the American right. I know the term has bad connotations around here these days but it was a fairly liberal ideology based on spreading freedom and democracy. It was imperfect in application and somewhat flawed ideologically but not without merit.

306 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 9:04:21am

Heh.... contrary to CW, most Internet trolls are likely trolls in real life.

The magic of being a grown-up is that you get to choose whom you socialize with. Sure, you have to talk to your coworkers sometimes, but there are rules about how obnoxious you get to be in the workplace. And chances are if you work in a white-collar professional environment, most of the people you work with are self-selected to share at least certain values with you. They may be more liberal or more conservative, but they're probably not foaming at the mouth. And most of your coworkers, you only see within the bubble of the workplace and "professional behavior."

In fact, even if some of your coworkers are internet trolls, it's not the lack of online anonymity that's keeping them from trolling you in person — it's the chilling effect of "workplace behavior" and professionalism.

The fact is, you can meet internet trolls in real life, and they will be just as trollish in person as they are on the internet. It's just that, when someone starts screaming at you on the street about their crazy conspiracy theories, you can walk away. Also, most of us who are over the age of 21 don't make a point of hunting down random 14-year-olds and asking them what they think about stuff — unless we're related to them, in which case it's a self-selecting group. Most of us who live in city centers also probably don't venture out to suburban malls and ask people what they think about politics or cultural issues, or vice versa.

That's one point — trolling is often in the eye of the beholder. A conservative's idea of trolling will be very different from a liberal's. Ditto for divisions of age, socioeconomic status and sexual orientation.

We tend to talk to our friends, and to people we already share some basic similarities with — and if a random dude does come up to you and start explaining his theories about women, you usually back away.

307 Gus  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 9:12:05am

OK. I better look busy. BBL

308 allegro  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 9:12:14am

re: #306 lawhawk

Heh... contrary to CW, most Internet trolls are likely trolls in real life.

For some reason I always seem to run into them in the park laundry room. I get stuck having to listen to them rant while I'm folding clothes and can't get away fast enough.

309 kirkspencer  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 9:13:24am

re: #302 Varek Raith

Just as many on the right would've preferred no revolutions in the ME at all.

I think that's incorrect.

310 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 9:14:10am

BREAKING: Hasan kicked out of court

FORT HOOD - Alleged Fort Hood gunman Nidal Hasan was kicked out of court Tuesday morning after he showed up at his hearing with a full beard.

The defense argued that Hasan refused to shave for religious reasons, but the prosecution countered by stating that the beard was a violation of military standards.

The judge had warned Hasan at his last hearing that if he was not clean-shaven the next time he showed up in court, he would not be allowed to be present in the courtroom during the hearing.

He will now have to watch the proceedings from a closed-circuit television in a trailer about 15 feet from the courtroom unless a higher authority overrules the judge's decision.

What an ass. All these years without a beard but now it's an issue.

311 Flounder  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 9:14:42am

re: #257 lawhawk

Are you watching Family Guy re-runs again?!

312 allegro  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 9:15:27am

re: #310 NJDhockeyfan

BREAKING: Hasan kicked out of court

What an ass. All these years without a beard but now it's an issue.

I don't get why it's such an issue with the court, frankly.

313 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 9:16:34am

re: #273 Gus

Most Egyptians are between the proverbial rock and hard place. They had a crazy choice to make - either elect the former PM for Mubarak or go with the Muslim Brotherhood's candidate in Masri (Masry). Masry won out, but that doesn't mean that the Egyptian people won.

And there's still the ongoing concern that the military junta isn't about to give up power as it has repeatedly stated it would do once elections were completed. They're changing the rules as they go.

Yet, Egyptians have a new notion of political power and that they can stand up for their political and social rights. However, as Sandmonkey notes - they may have united in the need to get rid of Mubarak, they had no clue what to do after that - let alone unite in a common goal for a pluralistic and secular society that respects the rights of Muslims and other religious groups.

He's right to be wary of the MB, just as surely as the military. Neither is particularly trustworthy. But the power in the new government will contain elements of both.

314 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 9:18:26am

re: #312 allegro

Hasan is still in the military and as such is required to follow military protocols and guidelines.

315 iossarian  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 9:18:37am

re: #312 allegro

I don't get why it's such an issue with the court, frankly.

Because small government, except that having rules against people wearing beards is vewy vewy important.

316 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 9:23:01am

re: #312 allegro

I don't get why it's such an issue with the court, frankly.

I don't get why it's such an issue with Nidal Hasan quite frankly.

317 allegro  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 9:23:06am

re: #314 lawhawk

Hasan is still in the military and as such is required to follow military protocols and guidelines.

After the guy goes on a murderous rampage it seems rather silly to worry about facial hair. I mean, is he trying to argue for an honorable discharge here?

318 allegro  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 9:24:42am

re: #316 NJDhockeyfan

I don't get why it's such an issue with Nidal Hasan quite frankly.

I think it's pretty clear the guy has mental/emotional issues. Why make him a religious martyr by focusing on a beard rather than sticking to the issues?

319 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 9:39:21am

An interesting YouTube playlist. PBS asks the following questions of 59 voters:

What's the most important issue to you this election season?

Are you hopeful about the future?

Do you think the political system is broken. If so, how would you fix it?

320 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 9:49:27am

re: #318 allegro

I think it's pretty clear the guy has mental/emotional issues. Why make him a religious martyr by focusing on a beard rather than sticking to the issues?

It's in accordance with Army Regulation 670–1

1–8. Hair and fingernail standards and grooming policies

...(c) Males will keep their face clean-shaven when in uniform or in civilian clothes on duty. Mustaches are permitted; if worn, males will keep mustaches neatly trimmed, tapered, and tidy. Mustaches will not present a chopped off or bushy appearance, and no portion of the mustache will cover the upper lip line or extend sideways beyond a vertical line drawn upward from the corners of the mouth (see figure 1–1). Handlebar mustaches, goatees, and beards are not authorized. If ppropriate medical authority prescribes beard growth, the length required for medical treatment must be specified. For example, “The length of the beard will not exceed 1⁄4 inch” (see TB MED 287). Soldiers will keep the growth trimmed to the level specified by appropriate medical authority, but they are not authorized to shape the growth into goatees, or “Fu Manchu” or handlebar mustaches.

321 erik_t  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 9:54:13am

Sounds like Mitch Daniels isn't Romney's boring-white-guy.

WEST LAFAYETTE, Ind. (WISH) - Purdue University officials plan to vote on a candidate for the school’s next president this week – and WISH-TV has learned Gov. Mitch Daniels is the candidate in question.

The Purdue Board of Trustees will meet at 10 a.m. Thursday in Steward Center’s Loeb Playhouse to vote on a nominee to be the school’s 12th president. Several sources close to the proceedings tells WISH-TV that the nominee is Daniels. After the vote, the president-elect will be introduced, the school said in a news release.

Daniels' office had no comment Tuesday afternoon. However, sources with connections to both Purdue and the governor said it's a done deal.

322 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 9:54:47am

MOrning all!

How are you all?

323 Mattand  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 9:57:20am

re: #321 erik_t

Sounds like Mitch Daniels isn't Romney's boring-white-guy.

Interesting in that I figured with Gov Walker's recent victory, Daniels would be emboldened to forge on as well. Wonder if he knows something that Walker doesn't.

324 erik_t  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 9:58:08am

re: #323 Mattand

Daniels is term-limited; he's done with state office, at least.

325 allegro  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 9:58:46am

re: #320 NJDhockeyfan

It's in accordance with Army Regulation 670–1

Yeah, heaven forbid his untidy appearance reflect badly on our armed forces. Now, what was that little incident that got him in a scrape again?

Sheesh, priorities.

326 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:06:04am

re: #321 erik_t

Media outlets are trying to push Pawlenty as his go-to guy, and downplaying Christie or Rubio. One spin relating to Christie is that he's hoping to get the keynote speech at the convention, which would put him in position for 2016. By that logic, it would suggest that Christie doesn't think Romney's going to win, and he doesn't want to be saddled with that problem. He'd rather have the latitude to go for 2016 without being tied to a failed run in 2012.

327 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:06:04am

Britain stops Russian ship carrying attack helicopters for Syria

A Russian ship believed to be carrying helicopters and missiles for Syria has been effectively stopped in its tracks off the coast of Scotland after its insurance was cancelled at the behest of the British government.

328 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:10:32am

I really can't see it being Christie honestly. I really think he picks an Evangelical or other kind of Protestant from an area more Republican friendly. I dunno though. The guy is full of surprises but I can't see Romney-Christie being the ticket.

329 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:13:59am

So, as I'm reading/listening to the book Paris 1919 by Margaret MacMillian, I'm learning how much of what we are dealing with now on the International Stage is a result of the Treaty of Versailles.

Even in China. I didn't realize how much it affected China.

330 allegro  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:15:32am

re: #328 HappyWarrior

I really can't see it being Christie honestly. I really think he picks an Evangelical or other kind of Protestant from an area more Republican friendly. I dunno though. The guy is full of surprises but I can't see Romney-Christie being the ticket.

I wonder how many potentials have turned down the consideration thus far. Who wants to get attached to Romney? His own party can't stand the guy.

331 Mattand  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:16:11am

Another thing with Christie is he got labeled as a RINO by that deepest of thinkers, Limbaugh. Christie recently defended the appointment of a Mulsim judge, so that ain't gonna play well in Bible Beltistan.

I think Lawhawk is right. Whatever you think of him, he's a skilled political operator. There are enough question marks about Romney that would drag Christie with him.

Of course, fixing your state's budget by raiding other departments' funds, and trying to pass a tax cut with no means of paying for it, should be enough to drag your POTUS aspirations down. But I digress.

332 erik_t  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:16:19am

re: #326 lawhawk

The prospect of a Pawlenty selection tickles me pink.

333 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:17:02am

The Wingnuts complain about the whole "one world government" concept, but never complain about the World Citizen known as the Corporation. What did they think would be the end result of Perry and the trade treaty with Japan?

334 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:17:11am

Bedford County dead dog receives voter registration forms

BEDFORD COUNTY, VA --
When Tim Morris got his mail last week he found a pretty big surprise, a document asking his dog Mozart to register to vote.

Not only is Mozart a dog but he's been dead for two years.

"I opened it up and looked at it and I just laughed," Morris said. "I thought it was a joke at first and it turns out it's real."

The form is addressed to Mo, the family's nickname for the dog.

What amazed Morris is that if Mozart was human he would have been eligible to vote for the first time in 2012.

"He would have been 19 years old this year and he passed away two years ago," he said. "I still have no earthly idea how they got his information."

Should I expect a letter requesting my beloved Alex register to vote? I really don't want to dig her up.

335 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:18:13am

re: #329 ggt

So, as I'm reading/listening to the book Paris 1919 by Margaret MacMillian, I'm learning how much of what we are dealing with now on the International Stage is a result of the Treaty of Versailles.

Even in China. I didn't realize how much it affected China.

I read that last summer. Very interesting book. McMillian if memory services is David Lloyd Geroge's grand or great granddaughter. I liked reading about the various national groups at the conference the most.

336 Kragar  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:18:52am

Gaffney: The Muslim Brotherhood 'is Trying to Keep us Stupid' About Plans to Take Over America

apparently that fact that nobody believes that the Muslim Brotherhood is systematically taking over the nation is itself proof that their plan is working!

337 Mattand  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:19:07am

re: #334 NJDhockeyfan

Bedford County dead dog receives voter registration forms

Should I expect a letter requesting my beloved Alex register to vote? I really don't want to dig her up.

OMGVOTERFRAUDOMG11!!!11TY!! Project Veritas is on the case! What's the over/under on James O'Keefe dressing up as Snoopy and trying to register to vote?

338 Mattand  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:19:53am

re: #336 Kragar

Gaffney: The Muslim Brotherhood 'is Trying to Keep us Stupid' About Plans to Take Over America

Well, at the least, they won't have to try with Gaffney.

339 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:20:02am

re: #330 allegro

I wonder how many potentials have turned down the consideration thus far. Who wants to get attached to Romney? His own party can't stand the guy.

That's why I think there's an outside chance he chooses some executive. Not probable but let's say I wouldn't be surprised either with how Romney seems to think business experience is the only kind of experience that really matters when seeking high office.

340 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:21:12am

re: #336 Kragar

Gaffney: The Muslim Brotherhood 'is Trying to Keep us Stupid' About Plans to Take Over America

I worry about FARC's chances of taking the country over more. Hey don't look at me like that, it makes just as much sense as the MB taking over because we don't as policy treat every Muslim with suspicion.

341 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:21:21am

re: #335 HappyWarrior

I read that last summer. Very interesting book. McMillian if memory services is David Lloyd Geroge's grand or great granddaughter. I liked reading about the various national groups at the conference the most.

Yes, I think you are correct in her lineage.

This is my first foray into this part of history as an adult. I should probably also get the Guns of August to round out my understanding.

The Balkan situation was unreal. I really didn't have any understanding that feudalism was still the system in so much of the world at that part of history. I don't think I ever thought of it at all. The idea that Royalty had so much power and ego, when really it was just a bunch of inbred capitalists.

342 erik_t  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:22:05am

re: #339 HappyWarrior

That's why I think there's an outside chance he chooses some executive. Not probable but let's say I wouldn't be surprised either with how Romney seems to think business experience is the only kind of experience that really matters when seeking high office.

I never considered that. What a stunning statement about the overall worth of government that would be.

343 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:22:17am

re: #337 Mattand

What's the over/under on James O'Keefe dressing up as Snoopy and trying to register to vote?

Heh. Grab the video camera!

344 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:23:09am
345 Kragar  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:23:31am

Alaska Militia Leader Schaeffer Cox Found Guilty Of Conspiracy To Murder Federal Employees

Alaska militia leader Schaeffer Cox and his deputy Lonnie Vernon were each found guilty late Monday of the most serious charge against them, conspiracy to murder federal employees.

The Anchorage Daily News reports that the duo are facing life in prison. The jury reached verdicts on all 16 counts except for a conspiracy charge against a third man, Coleman Barney, according to the Alaska Dispatch.

In a courtroom outburst, Cox, 28, shouted to the jury that the “prosecutors withheld evidence from you guys!” Jurors reportedly declined to discuss the case with reporters.

Cox is a self-described “sovereign citizen” who led the Alaska Peacemaker Militia and Alaska Assembly Post. He was first arrested in March 2011. A superseding indictment against them was released in January which alleged the three defendants conspired to stockpile weapons (including hand grenades and grenade launchers) “in furtherance of their collective belief that at some undetermined and unknown point in the future they would be compelled to take up arms against the government.”

346 Mattand  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:26:13am

re: #343 NJDhockeyfan

Heh. Grab the video camera!

We can edit in Schroder's piano music in the background.

347 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:26:14am

re: #341 ggt

Yes, I think you are correct in her lineage.

This is my first foray into this part of history as an adult. I should probably also get the Guns of August to round out my understanding.

The Balkan situation was unreal. I really didn't have any understanding that feudalism was still the system in so much of the world at that part of history. I don't think I ever thought of it at all. The idea that Royalty had so much power and ego, when really it was just a bunch of inbred capitalists.

I need to read Guns of August. I have a copy but didn't finish it because I abandoned it. I'm doing a small trek on the Spanish Civil War though, first reading Orwell's Homage to Catalonia, next is Anthony Beevor's general history of the war, and there's a new book out on it called Spanish Holocaust that explores how murderous Franco and his allies were. I'm still reading my Kershaw Hitler biography which will probably take me a while but it's something that I can go back to while reading other material.

348 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:28:01am

re: #342 erik_t

I never considered that. What a stunning statement about the overall worth of government that would be.

I seem to recall Meg Whitman and Carly Fiorina being sort of considered for McCain. Also don't forget that Cheney was a businessman when Bush chose him. It would be an out there pick but given Romney's view of the government and business, it really wouldn't shock me if he went with an executive. Sure as hell won't be Trump though. Romney's a desperate man but he's a careful one.

349 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:32:15am

re: #334 NJDhockeyfan

Receiving the voter registration form isn't bad. Had the owner decided to file it - that would be illegal and fraudulent. Receipt of the form isn't illegal. It's silly and embarrassing for the issuing entity.

It raises questions on how the name got into the voter registration form distribution list (probably someone combined lists incorrectly).

350 erik_t  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:33:59am

re: #348 HappyWarrior

I seem to recall Meg Whitman and Carly Fiorina being sort of considered for McCain. Also don't forget that Cheney was a businessman when Bush chose him. It would be an out there pick but given Romney's view of the government and business, it really wouldn't shock me if he went with an executive. Sure as hell won't be Trump though. Romney's a desperate man but he's a careful one.

Well, Cheney might have been a businessman at the time, but he was still recognized as a government figure. Tapping someone who is known first and foremost as a businessman (and it will be a man)... that would be shocking to me.

351 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:34:18am

re: #348 HappyWarrior

Cheney was a former WH Chief of Staff, member of Congress, and Defense Secretary before being GWB's Vice President. The business experience was a factor, but so too was his experience as a DC insider.

352 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:34:57am

Customer: Apple Store denied me iPad for speaking Farsi

ALPHARETTA, Ga. — An Alpharetta woman and one of her friends say the Apple Store turned them away after they heard them speaking Farsi.

One was trying to buy an iPad, the other an iPhone. When they were heard speaking the foreign language, they said the sales representative refused to sell them anything.

Apple says it's simply following U.S. policy.

"Very hurtful, very embarrassing. I actually walked out in tears," Sahar Sabet said about the experience.

Sabet is a U.S. citizen. Like most 19-year-olds, the University of Georgia student is never far from her iPhone.

So she was surprised Thursday when an employee at the Apple Store inside North Pointe Mall in Alpharetta refused to sell an iPad to her and her uncle after overhearing them speaking Farsi.

"When we said 'Farsi, I'm from Iran,' he said, 'I just can't sell this to you. Our countries have bad relations,'" Sabet said.

Really? Who cares where anyone is from. Sell them the damn iPad!

353 Kragar  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:36:34am

re: #352 NJDhockeyfan

Customer: Apple Store denied me iPad for speaking Farsi

Really? Who cares where anyone is from. Sell them the damn iPad!

Dumbasses.

354 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:36:43am

re: #351 lawhawk

Cheney was a former WH Chief of Staff, member of Congress, and Defense Secretary before being GWB's Vice President. The business experience was a factor, but so too was his experience as a DC insider.

True that. I didn't mean to imply Cheney lacked an understanding of government policy just that he was seven years removed from his last government post.

355 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:36:47am

re: #347 HappyWarrior

I need to read Guns of August. I have a copy but didn't finish it because I abandoned it. I'm doing a small trek on the Spanish Civil War though, first reading Orwell's Homage to Catalonia, next is Anthony Beevor's general history of the war, and there's a new book out on it called Spanish Holocaust that explores how murderous Franco and his allies were. I'm still reading my Kershaw Hitler biography which will probably take me a while but it's something that I can go back to while reading other material.

The author of the Guns has a whole series are that part of history that look really interesting. Not all are availble on audible.com tho.

Someone also recommended a book called Dreadnaught. It also is not on audible.com.

356 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:37:36am

re: #352 NJDhockeyfan

Customer: Apple Store denied me iPad for speaking Farsi

Really? Who cares where anyone is from. Sell them the damn iPad!

There is something wrong with that story.

Money is Money and Apple likes money.

357 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:37:52am

re: #352 NJDhockeyfan

Customer: Apple Store denied me iPad for speaking Farsi

Really? Who cares where anyone is from. Sell them the damn iPad!

What the hell. Way to be douches, Apple.

358 erik_t  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:38:38am

re: #357 HappyWarrior

What the hell. Way to be douches, Apple.

I'm, uh, going to go ahead and assume that there's not a secret Apple policy not to sell to Farsi-speakers. Just some dumbass who won't (and shouldn't) have a job tomorrow.

359 Kragar  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:39:15am

There is a distinct difference between trade sanctions preventing business deals with Iran and someone who speaks the language walking into a store half a world away and legally purchasing an item.

360 Kragar  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:39:57am

re: #358 erik_t

I'm, uh, going to go ahead and assume that there's not a secret Apple policy not to sell to Farsi-speakers. Just some dumbass who won't (and shouldn't) have a job tomorrow.

I think someone might just be getting some free Apple stuff soon.

361 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:41:45am

re: #358 erik_t

I'm, uh, going to go ahead and assume that there's not a secret Apple policy not to sell to Farsi-speakers. Just some dumbass who won't (and shouldn't) have a job tomorrow.

True that.

362 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 10:57:43am

re: #347 HappyWarrior

I need to read Guns of August. I have a copy but didn't finish it because I abandoned it. I'm doing a small trek on the Spanish Civil War though, first reading Orwell's Homage to Catalonia, next is Anthony Beevor's general history of the war, and there's a new book out on it called Spanish Holocaust that explores how murderous Franco and his allies were. I'm still reading my Kershaw Hitler biography which will probably take me a while but it's something that I can go back to while reading other material.

Be sure to get the second edition of Beevor. He get's his hands on a lot more documentation and gives much more detail and depth to his work.

I'd love to require every American to read it... :(

363 HappyWarrior  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 11:08:32am

re: #362 William Barnett-Lewis

Be sure to get the second edition of Beevor. He get's his hands on a lot more documentation and gives much more detail and depth to his work.

I'd love to require every American to read it... :(

I think I might have that since I got the book recently at a big bookstore. It really is a subject more Americans should educate themselves on.

364 Mattand  Tue, Jun 19, 2012 11:46:31am

re: #352 NJDhockeyfan

Customer: Apple Store denied me iPad for speaking Farsi
...
Sabet is a U.S. citizen.
....

A friend of mine adopted his daughter from China. Beautiful, smart little kid. However, in a way, this is what she gets to look forward to for the rest of her life. Because to a whole swath of Americans, she will never truly be a US citizen because she has Chinese heritage and is not white as the driven snow.


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