Video: Rachel Maddow Deconstructs the ‘Fast and Furious’ Fake Outrage
Crazies pushing an extreme right narrative
Politics • Views: 30,377
303 comments
3 |
Varek Raith Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:08:21pm |
What your uncle who watches fox news is all worked up about.
XD
| 5 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:12:44pm |
Of course. Intelligent facts. But totally preaching to the choir. What needs to happen, and it won't, is a sane GOP says this & it makes all the news.
Dream on weaver.
| 6 |
The Ghost of a Flea Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:13:44pm |
| 7 |
jaunte Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:14:30pm |
June 18, 2009
DHS' Domestic Terror Warning Angers GOP
March 25, 2010
Former militiaman unapologetic for calls to vandalize offices over health care
| 8 |
jaunte Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:16:06pm |
Vanderboegh said he once worked as a warehouse manager but now lives on government disability checks. He said he receives $1,300 a month because of his congestive heart failure, diabetes and hypertension.
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]
| 9 |
Mocking Jay Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:17:13pm |
re: #8 jaunte
Forget his guns, someone needs to take his twinkies...
| 10 |
austin_blue Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:17:37pm |
re: #8 jaunte
Vanderboegh said he once worked as a warehouse manager but now lives on government disability checks. He said he receives $1,300 a month because of his congestive heart failure, diabetes and hypertension.
[Link: [Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]...]
Welfare queen!
| 11 |
Mocking Jay Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:18:04pm |
| 13 |
Varek Raith Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:19:07pm |
re: #11 It's a cookbook!
In my case it's my mother, and it's not as funny as it seems on paper.
Yeah, my dad is at TPer.
:/
| 15 |
BongCrodny Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:21:09pm |
re: #8 jaunte
his congestive heart failure, diabetes and hypertension.
Y'know, a little less hate might help with all of those.
| 16 |
jaunte Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:21:09pm |
"Very clearly, they made a crisis, and they are using this crisis to somehow take away people's Second Amendment rights."
--Darrell Issa
Liar or fool.
| 17 |
BongCrodny Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:25:01pm |
Born in Michigan and raised in Ohio, Vanderboegh said he was not always a libertarian. He once was active in the Young Socialist Alliance and the Progressive Labor Party. "In my youth, I was a communist," he said. But in the mid-1970s, Vanderboegh read Friedrich von Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom," among other books, and had an epiphany.
As a rule of thumb, it's never a bad idea to steer clear of anyone who has an epiphany.
| 18 |
Varek Raith Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:25:57pm |
re: #16 jaunte
"Very clearly, they made a crisis, and they are using this crisis to somehow take away people's Second Amendment rights."
--Darrel IssaLiar or fool.
I'm considering selling anti satellite signal protection devices (Coat hangers) to these guys.
| 19 |
Mocking Jay Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:27:12pm |
| 20 |
Mocking Jay Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:28:36pm |
re: #18 Varek Raith
I'm considering selling anti satellite signal protection devices (Coat hangers) to these guys.
And in the Brave New World you'll need them to perform abortions, too.
| 21 |
Big Joe Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:28:44pm |
Wow, I haven't been following this for a while. They've morphed from FF bad because a border agent was shot to it's a premise for gun grabbing. I bet chem-trails figure into this somehow.
| 22 |
The Ghost of a Flea Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:29:16pm |
re: #17 BongCrodny
As a rule of thumb, it's never a bad idea to steer clear of anyone who has an epiphany.
Rather like when born-agains tell you about their horrible debased lifestyle before they were saved by a pamphlet, when people present themselves as "once I was a crazy lefty and them I read one book" you should view it as, at best, the shit-tinted glasses of retroactive imagination.
But most of the time they're lying, because a dramatic emotional conversion story diverts from the fact their ideology makes no fucking internally-consistent sense.
| 23 |
Mocking Jay Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:29:18pm |
re: #21 Purple Throbbing Standby
Wow, I haven't been following this for a while. They've morphed from FF bad because a border agent was shot to it's a premise for gun grabbing. I bet chem-trails figure into this somehow.
Precious Bodily Fluids.
| 25 |
Blizard Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:37:43pm |
Is it just me or is Maddow becoming more like Jon Stewart in her reporting? She kinda even looks like him now.
| 26 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:38:27pm |
re: #16 jaunte
"Very clearly, they made a crisis, and they are using this crisis to somehow take away people's Second Amendment rights."
--Darrell IssaLiar or fool.
BEEP BEEP BEEP Please step away from the committee.
*NEW* Viper Anti-idiot alarm from DEI.
;)
| 27 |
bratwurst Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:39:22pm |
re: #25 Blizard
Is it just me or is Maddow becoming more like Jon Stewart in her reporting? She kinda even looks like him now.
Um, it's just you. You might want to ask yourself if you would comment on the appearance of male journalists.
| 28 |
jaunte Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:40:19pm |
Romney Campaign Said to Ask Scott to Downplay Job Gains
...Romney’s staff has concluded there’s no benefit in appearing with Scott, said two campaign advisers who asked for anonymity because they weren’t authorized to discuss the matter.
Courageous cheerleaders for doom!
| 29 |
austin_blue Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:44:26pm |
re: #12 Purple Throbbing Standby
Silly conservatives, guns don't kill people.
Bullets kill people.
Oh by the way, while I was producing a classical music festival the last two weeks, I happened upon Monty's Pawn Shop, where I purchased a 1939 Moisin-Nagant 7.62 X 54 rifle. It's with my gunsmith now, who says it's in excellent shape. I'm taking it out this weekend to see how it fires over iron sites. Always wanted one. With 80 rounds, it cost me $149.
I know, I know, Texas Democrats...
| 30 |
Targetpractice Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:44:56pm |
What I find hilarious about the whole conspiracy theory behind the F&F probe, the grand conspiracy to manufacture a crisis, is that...well...the crisis already existed. That's why Wide Receiver and F&F were created, as attempts by the ATF (asinine ones, but stay with me here) to track the flow of guys made and sold in America to Mexico and other foreign locals. Yet the wingnuts are convinced that no such crisis existed, that the "gunshow loophole," problems with gun shops selling to less than reputable characters, to people selling guns out of their trunk for a steal, and so forth weren't happening before Eric Holder took office and decided "Let's sell guns to the cartels, then capitalize on all the violence!"
| 31 |
prairiefire Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:45:11pm |
re: #18 Varek Raith
I'm considering selling anti satellite signal protection devices (Coat hangers) to these guys.
Coat hangers would be cheap and readily available.
| 32 |
jaunte Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:47:42pm |
Charles Blow:
"As for [Romney's] business background, operating within an economy is nothing like overseeing one. It’s like saying you know how to cook a meal because you cleaned your plate."
| 33 |
Blizard Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:51:31pm |
re: #27 bratwurst
Um, it's just you. You might want to ask yourself if you would comment on the appearance of male journalists.
It is my opinion. I really think her style of reporting reminds me of him. And perhaps because of that she really looks like him too. Association I guess.
Regardless, because of her style of reporting I don't think enough people will watch the video or take her seriously- she seems to be almost comical or cocky? It's been awhile since I've watched her (I don't watch tv anymore), but last time I did see her she seemed way more professional in her tone. The clip when she was in Alaska asking about Holder was classic though.
| 34 |
Gus Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:52:09pm |
Fucking aye. San Diego voters chose a birther as a California Superior Court judge. This is the same nut that represented the birther challenge that went to the SCOTUS and was refused a hearing.
Congratulations San Diego. Nice going. Have a cigar.
| 36 |
bratwurst Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:56:19pm |
re: #33 Blizard
It is my opinion. I really think her style of reporting reminds me of him. And perhaps because of that she really looks like him too. Association I guess.
Regardless, because of her style of reporting I don't think enough people will watch the video or take her seriously- she seems to be almost comical or cocky? It's been awhile since I've watched her (I don't watch tv anymore), but last time I did see her she seemed way more professional in her tone. The clip when she was in Alaska asking about Holder was classic though.
1) She does NOT look like a man. I again ask you to consider whether you would bother to post about a male journalist's appearance.
2) She has no problem getting people to watch her. Her book was a best seller and she is solidly in second place in her time slot, often doubling or TRIPLING up Piers Morgan.
| 37 |
Big Joe Wed, Jun 20, 2012 8:58:48pm |
re: #29 austin_blue
Bullets kill people.
Oh by the way, while I was producing a classical music festival the last two weeks, I happened upon Monty's Pawn Shop, where I purchased a 1939 Moisin-Nagant 7.62 X 54 rifle. It's with my gunsmith now, who says it's in excellent shape. I'm taking it out this weekend to see how it fires over iron sites. Always wanted one. With 80 rounds, it cost me $149.
I know, I know, Texas Democrats...
I have an SKS, but it tends to fire 2-3 rounds at a time. I should probably find a gunsmith.
| 38 |
Blizard Wed, Jun 20, 2012 9:04:25pm |
re: #36 bratwurst
1) She does NOT look like a man. I again ask you to consider whether you would bother to post about a male journalist's appearance.
2) She has no problem getting people to watch her. Her book was a best seller and she is solidly in second place in her time slot, often doubling or TRIPLING up Piers Morgan.
I look just like my dad, and I'm a girl. This was not intended to be derogatory. She really does remind me of Jon Stewart.
| 39 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Jun 20, 2012 9:26:35pm |
re: #37 Purple Throbbing Standby
I have an SKS, but it tends to fire 2-3 rounds at a time. I should probably find a gunsmith.
You really should. That could get you in serious legal trouble. Actually, it might be better to have it destroyed instead, because guns with that sort of malfunction have been called "machine guns" by the ATF in the past.
| 40 |
Mich-again Wed, Jun 20, 2012 9:38:23pm |
Does it change the outcome of the ATF gunwalking scandal all that much knowing that the ATF supplied those weapons to the gun dealers?
Suppose, the ATF gunwalking programs had never come along. Is it the contention of the House GOP that the drug cartels would have had to resort to throwing rocks or using sling shots instead?
A lot of guns were legally bought at legitimate businesses by legal buyers and then later the guns changed hands via illegal sales and then those guns were used to kill people and spread mayhem. So the ATF gunwalking programs were pretty much just like what happens every day in most cities in the USA.
Legal guns end up in the wrong hands and are used in commission of crimes. This is an outrage!
| 41 |
Big Joe Wed, Jun 20, 2012 9:40:13pm |
re: #39 Dark_Falcon
I don't go to the gun range with it for that reason. I can replace the parts with modern firing pin assembly to fix the problem. It's an accurate gun. 3 rounds to sight it in and I can put 10 rounds in a 1" group in the center of the target at 50 yards, every time.
| 42 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Jun 20, 2012 9:49:15pm |
re: #40 Mich-again
Does it change the outcome of the ATF gunwalking scandal all that much knowing that the ATF supplied those weapons to the gun dealers?
Suppose, the ATF gunwalking programs had never come along. Is it the contention of the House GOP that the drug cartels would have had to resort to throwing rocks or using sling shots instead?
A lot of guns were legally bought at legitimate businesses by legal buyers and then later the guns changed hands via illegal sales and then those guns were used to kill people and spread mayhem. So the ATF gunwalking programs were pretty much just like what happens every day in most cities in the USA.
Legal guns end up in the wrong hands and are used in commission of crimes. This is an outrage!
Yes, it does. The basic fact of "Fast and Furious", whatever else is true, is that the ATF fucked up badly and people got killed because of it. The other thing is that there was not a good batch of firings when the scandal first came to light. The ATF could have reduced the pressure by working to throw out everyone responsible for this debacle, but did not. There needs to be a reckoning for this, and it has no happened yet.
Good Night, all.
| 43 |
Mich-again Wed, Jun 20, 2012 10:00:52pm |
re: #42 Dark_Falcon
Operation "Wide Receiver" under the Bush Administration was the first attempt at this stupid concept. "Fast and Furious" was just as stupid.
I suppose it would have been much better that the ATF just sat back and did nothing. After all, these all started out as either legal gun sales or gun sales that were against existing laws. They didn't even need to get involved with any special programs, just enforce the existing laws. I think that is the GOP's take on the BATF's gunwalking programs.
| 44 |
sagehen Wed, Jun 20, 2012 10:11:23pm |
re: #36 bratwurst
1) She does NOT look like a man. I again ask you to consider whether you would bother to post about a male journalist's appearance.
Anderson Cooper, yum. Love that silver fox thing he has going. (Sadly, his looks are diminished by his stupid little floofy dog; unlike Rachel, who has a real DAWG-dog.)
| 45 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Wed, Jun 20, 2012 10:22:44pm |
Max Payne 3: Too Many Cutscenes
| 46 |
freetoken Wed, Jun 20, 2012 10:27:59pm |
Over at National Racists Online we are warned of the evils of Multiculturalism, again:
The Trouble with Multiculturalism
It's just another anti-Islam rant by Clifford May, the same Clifford May who:
Whined about the "Ground Zero Mosque"
Fear mongers about some left wing takeover of America by Obama
Jumps on any wild idea that will blame Muslims for the hateful crimes of Americans
And so much more. May has hundreds of items at NRO warning of the destruction of America/West by Islam.
NRO - home of dishonest hacks.
| 47 |
Mich-again Wed, Jun 20, 2012 10:30:45pm |
re: #42 Dark_Falcon
Yes, it does. The basic fact of "Fast and Furious", whatever else is true, is that the ATF fucked up badly and people got killed because of it. The other thing is that there was not a good batch of firings when the scandal first came to light. The ATF could have reduced the pressure by working to throw out everyone responsible for this debacle, but did not. There needs to be a reckoning for this, and it has no happened yet.
It seems to me you are indicting the lax gun laws in the USA more so than you are indicting the BATF programs that intended to use those lax laws to trace gun migration and find the ringleaders.
| 48 |
bratwurst Wed, Jun 20, 2012 10:32:15pm |
re: #44 sagehen
Anderson Cooper, yum. Love that silver fox thing he has going. (Sadly, his looks are diminished by his stupid little floofy dog; unlike Rachel, who has a real DAWG-dog.)
I am trying to understand why I am totally ok with this as opposed to what was said about Maddow earlier. I guess it comes down to the fact that you are not comparing him to a woman! ;)
| 49 |
bratwurst Wed, Jun 20, 2012 10:34:27pm |
re: #47 Mich-again
It seems to me you are indicting the lax gun laws in the USA more so than you are indicting the BATF programs that intended to use those lax laws to trace gun migration and find the ringleaders.
I would say that all he is doing here is marching to his chosen political drummer...the same way our resident Canadian wingnut did all over the earlier thread on this topic.
When you see folks around here speak of "tribalism", this is exactly what they are referring to.
| 50 |
Targetpractice Wed, Jun 20, 2012 10:35:06pm |
re: #42 Dark_Falcon
Yes, it does. The basic fact of "Fast and Furious", whatever else is true, is that the ATF fucked up badly and people got killed because of it. The other thing is that there was not a good batch of firings when the scandal first came to light. The ATF could have reduced the pressure by working to throw out everyone responsible for this debacle, but did not. There needs to be a reckoning for this, and it has no happened yet.
Good Night, all.
There does need to be a reckoning, unfortunately the majority of those who bear the biggest blame for brainstorming this harebrained scheme to begin with either left or got replaced when the new administration came into office. If anything, this seems to be another case of the Obama Admin coming in, being assured by the last guys in office that their plans were worthwhile, and continuing them rather than shit-canning them at the first earliest convenience.
| 51 |
Mich-again Wed, Jun 20, 2012 10:44:10pm |
re: #50 Targetpractice
If anything, this seems to be another case of the Obama Admin coming in, being assured by the last guys in office that their plans were worthwhile, and continuing them rather than shit-canning them at the first earliest convenience.
Sometimes described as a burning bag of shit on the front porch, (a legendary old prank) Fill up a paper bag with crap, set it on someone's porch, light it on fire, ring the doorbell and leave. Then the guy answers the front door, sees the burning bag of shit on the porch and stomps it out getting the crap from in the bag onto his shoe.
What a hoot!
| 52 |
goddamnedfrank Wed, Jun 20, 2012 10:44:48pm |
re: #42 Dark_Falcon
Yes, it does. The basic fact of "Fast and Furious", whatever else is true, is that the ATF fucked up badly and people got killed because of it.
Without a political motive you'd never make the argument that it's the gun that kills people instead of the person pulling the trigger. Both countries, the US and Mexico are awash in guns sold in the US through straw transactions. You're well aware that the perpetrators would have gotten their hands on guns without the F&F program so it's dishonest of you to claim that the program itself is what got people killed.
| 53 |
Targetpractice Wed, Jun 20, 2012 10:49:05pm |
re: #52 goddamnedfrank
Without a political motive you'd never make the argument that it's the gun that kills people instead of the person pulling the trigger. Both countries, the US and Mexico are awash in guns sold in the US through straw transactions. You're well aware that the perpetrators would have gotten their hands on guns without the F&F program so it's dishonest of you to claim that the program itself is what got people killed.
They're not even concerned about people, just one person. One American, whose name they invoke as some sort of ward against any accusations that F&F was just the continuation of Wide Receiver. I've heard it at least a dozen times since yesterday: "Oh yeah? Well nobody got killed when Bush was in office!" Except, you know, Mexicans killed with guns that were walked into Mexico and into the hands of the cartels. But we know that Mexicans don't matter, just Brian Terry, a guy who none of them know anything about other than he was a Border Patrol agent whose death is blamed on guns traced back to F&F.
| 54 |
goddamnedfrank Wed, Jun 20, 2012 10:56:39pm |
re: #49 bratwurst
I would say that all he is doing here is marching to his chosen political drummer...the same way our resident Canadian wingnut did all over the earlier thread on this topic.
When you see folks around here speak of "tribalism", this is exactly what they are referring to.
It occurs in the utter absence of personal integrity and consistency. The average, ethical human being doesn't bend himself into a logical pretzel to argue a point that's diametrically opposed to their normal point of view just because there's an ephemeral political point to be scored. I'd say it's sad, or pathetic, which are both true but it's also incredibly insulting and infuriating to be lied to so blatantly - and I'm sorry, but I simply cannot ascribe this kind of repeat behavior to anything other than willful deceit.
| 55 |
Kragar Wed, Jun 20, 2012 11:02:34pm |
Coitus Interruptus: Ancient Turtle Sex Fossilized
Fossil turtles have been caught having sex, the first known case of animals with backbones found copulating in the fossil record, researchers say.
The mating turtles may have been caught in a death trap as they sank to deeper layers of the lake, where they were having sex nearly 50 million years ago, the researchers speculate. The lake's deep layers may have held deadly volcanic gases or other toxins.
| 56 |
freetoken Wed, Jun 20, 2012 11:03:07pm |
There's a lot to be said for going for a walk in the great outdoors:
Walking in park better for mental health
Walking or jogging through a forest or park reduces the risk of mental health problems, researchers in Scotland found.
[...]
"There was around a 50 percent improvement in people's mental health if they were physically active in the natural environment, compared to those who weren't and exercise in a gym," Mitchell told the Daily Telegraph. "These aren't serious mental health issues, more struggles in general life, things like mild depression, not being able to sleep, high stress levels or just feelings of not being able to cope."
Only activities carried out in a natural environment outdoors were associated with a lower risk of poor mental health, Mitchell said.
Being in areas that have lots of trees and grassy areas help people calm us down and reduce the body's stress response, Mitchell said.
| 57 |
freetoken Wed, Jun 20, 2012 11:51:15pm |
Many of the top hits of 1966 can still be heard on various outlets, but this one not as much as some others, though I think it's worth the play:
| 58 |
Kragar Thu, Jun 21, 2012 12:08:44am |
re: #57 freetoken
Many of the top hits of 1966 can still be heard on various outlets, but this one not as much as some others, though I think it's worth the play:
[Embedded content]
I give unto you, The Bus Driver's Song
| 59 |
Kragar Thu, Jun 21, 2012 12:27:21am |
And because you can never have enough heavy metal based on 19th century British poetry...
| 60 |
Kragar Thu, Jun 21, 2012 12:51:40am |
And my baseline model for my new project is done. Got all the color combinations and techniques worked out. Got all the assembly issues dealt with and beginning the assembly line process for other 5 tomorrow.
| 62 |
Kragar Thu, Jun 21, 2012 1:34:07am |
Note to self: running low on spray deodorant/ monster repelling poison mist for when the kids have bad dreams, time to get a new can.
| 63 |
AK-47% Thu, Jun 21, 2012 1:37:34am |
re: #62 Kragar
Note to self: running low on spray deodorant/ monster repelling poison mist for when the kids have bad dreams, time to get a new can.
I use roll-on monster repellent myself...
| 64 |
freetoken Thu, Jun 21, 2012 1:41:01am |
A year later... and one of the hallmark hits of that era:
| 65 |
researchok Thu, Jun 21, 2012 2:26:09am |
| 67 |
researchok Thu, Jun 21, 2012 2:39:39am |
Tie dyed shirts, too.
/
Another snapshot in time
TY
| 68 |
researchok Thu, Jun 21, 2012 2:48:00am |
As records go online, clash over mental care privacy
At her weekly therapy sessions, Julie revealed her most uncomfortable secrets: depression, debt, childhood sexual abuse. Her psychiatrist at Massachusetts General Hospital would then type a summary into Julie’s computerized medical record.
With that, more than 200 pages of sensitive notes became available to any doctor who cared for her within the sprawling Partners HealthCare system. She discovered this only when one doctor later referenced the notes.
Julie, a 43-year-old lawyer, was unnerved, then angry. “The details are really nobody’s business,” she said.
But Partners disagrees. Doctors must have a complete picture to make accurate diagnoses, the organization argues. And having different rules for psychiatric records contributes to the stigma of mental illness.
The clash reflects the delicate privacy issues surfacing as electronic medical records become widespread. Providers in separate networks are preparing to share patients’ records more widely online — to better coordinate care and cut wasteful spending. This will probably intensify the debate about what should and should not be shared, as well as fears about the unauthorized release of patient information.
| 69 |
RogueOne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 4:08:49am |
Maybe Rachel Maddow's crazy uncle is watching CBS.
From December 7, 2011:
Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations
[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]
Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation "Fast and Furious" to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.
....
ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:
"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."
They may not have originally intended the program to be used as the basis for new gun laws but they were certainly willing to use it.
| 70 |
RogueOne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 4:14:33am |
re: #42 Dark_Falcon
Yes, it does. The basic fact of "Fast and Furious", whatever else is true, is that the ATF fucked up badly and people got killed because of it. The other thing is that there was not a good batch of firings when the scandal first came to light. The ATF could have reduced the pressure by working to throw out everyone responsible for this debacle, but did not. There needs to be a reckoning for this, and it has no happened yet.
Good Night, all.
It took them less than a month to fire 10 secret service agents for cavorting with prostitutes. It's been almost 16 months now and not one ATF agent has lost their job for their role in all of this.
| 71 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Thu, Jun 21, 2012 4:16:06am |
Morning all!
Fast and Furious is going to be a problem for the Administration. Holder should have taken responsibility when it first became and issue and stopped trying to cover-his-ass by passing the buck to Obama.
IMHO, this just highlights how the War on Drugs is a cash cow for everyone involved --which should be the main issue.
The War on Drugs is a failure --guns or no guns.
| 72 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Thu, Jun 21, 2012 4:16:58am |
| 73 |
RogueOne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 4:25:43am |
re: #72 ggt
It's been a nasty week here too. Hot, Hot, Hot. Makes it miserable working outside.
| 74 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Thu, Jun 21, 2012 4:30:53am |
Abortions Have Made Life Better for Millions Of Men: It's About Time to Speak Up in Support
But it's time for both men and women to rethink this hands-off position. Recent research has found that the vast majority of women who have abortions don't make the decision on their own. We almost always turn to our partners, family members, spiritual advisers, and doctors as we weigh our options. And of those supporting players, it's our male partners who have the biggest stake in the decision, and play the biggest role -- which is why, better than 80 percent of the time, our partners not only know about the abortion, they also support it.
| 75 |
boxhead Thu, Jun 21, 2012 4:30:55am |
I thought I knew about the F&F issues. Well at least the facts. I did not know the Righties came up with that BS. wow.... To turn a valid complaint on losing weapons to some absurd conspiracy theory is reckless. These folks are just evil, plain and simple.
| 76 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Thu, Jun 21, 2012 4:31:36am |
re: #75 boxhead
I thought I knew about the F&F issues. Well at least the facts. I did not know the Righties came up with that BS. wow... To turn a valid complaint on losing weapons to some absurd conspiracy theory is reckless. These folks are just evil, plain and simple.
They didn't totally come-up with the issue. Read the CBS link Rogue One posted above. It's a mess.
| 77 |
boxhead Thu, Jun 21, 2012 4:35:21am |
re: #76 ggt
They didn't totally come-up with the issue. Read the CBS link Rogue One posted above. It's a mess.
*sigh* Is there at least one adult in charge of anything? I swear reading the information here depresses me... LOL...
| 78 |
RogueOne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 4:38:09am |
re: #77 boxhead
*sigh* Is there at least one adult in charge of anything? I swear reading the information here depresses me... LOL...
The whole operation and investigation has been outrageous. After the DOJ "investigation" of almost a year and a half we still don't know who it was that authorized and implemented the F&F program and no one has been punished. How is that possible? Personally I believe someone should be facing federal charges but at this point I'll settle for a public shaming and a some firings.
| 79 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Thu, Jun 21, 2012 4:38:47am |
re: #77 boxhead
*sigh* Is there at least one adult in charge of anything? I swear reading the information here depresses me... LOL...
Charles is the adult in charge. He is very much into letting us make our own mistakes within certain limits.
| 80 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Thu, Jun 21, 2012 4:40:05am |
re: #78 RogueOne
The whole operation and investigation has been outrageous. After the DOJ "investigation" of almost a year and a half we still don't know who it was that authorized and implemented the F&F program and no one has been punished. How is that possible? Personally I believe someone should be facing federal charges but at this point I'll settle for a public shaming and a some firings.
Holder needs to step-up-to-the plate, IMHO. Obama holding back the documents at this point in the game doesn't help much.
I'm not sure we'll ever know the whole truth --at this point it is about the election and the election and the election . . .
Which is the sad side of politics.
| 82 |
makeitstop Thu, Jun 21, 2012 4:43:56am |
re: #80 ggt
Holder needs to step-up-to-the plate, IMHO. Obama holding back the documents at this point in the game doesn't help much.
Except the ongoing investigations and the LEOs involved in those ongoing investigations and whose names are mentioned in those documents.
The administration is prohibited by law from releasing the documents Issa wants, because their release would jeopardize operations and lives.
Aren't Republicans supposed to be the ones who support the Rule of Law?
//
| 83 |
RogueOne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 4:47:47am |
re: #82 makeitstop
The administration is prohibited by law from releasing the documents Issa wants, because their release would jeopardize operations and lives.
I keep seeing that statement. What documents would those be?
| 84 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Jun 21, 2012 5:00:10am |
re: #72 ggt
Yes, it is still hot in The Very Far Western Parts of Chicagoland.
How about you?
80F already this morning. Calling for a high in the upper 90s today.
| 85 |
RogueOne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 5:01:23am |
This is a couple days old but it's a good sign so...:
Jurors voice thoughts on Texas drug law in court
[Link: abclocal.go.com...]
HOUSTON (KTRK) -- A juror's job is to decide guilt or innocence. We don't ask them to make the law. But last week in a Harris County courtroom, dozens of potential jurors said a Texas drug law is no good, and no matter how strong the evidence, they wouldn't convict.
....
Israel Rangel was charged with possession of less than a gram of cocaine. Cops said he had half as much coke as there is Sweet'N Low in a single packet.When citizens showed up in court to pick a jury, it started the way all cases do.
"The prosecutor asked a question to the first 65 people," Dupont said.
"The jurors if they believed beyond a reasonable doubt that the offense was committed, would they convict?" Walker said.
"I was surprised, first of all, of the bluntness of the question," juror Lou Ellen Wheeler said.
But Wheeler - who was eventually picked for the jury - was even more surprised by the answers. She said yes, but 50 out of 130 jurors said no, they would not convict someone even if it was proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
"I was surprised it was that many," Walker said.
One juror was more blunt than the others.
"She said, 'I can't believe I had to get in my car and come down here for this,'" Dupont said.
| 86 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Thu, Jun 21, 2012 5:03:30am |
re: #82 makeitstop
Except the ongoing investigations and the LEOs involved in those ongoing investigations and whose names are mentioned in those documents.
The administration is prohibited by law from releasing the documents Issa wants, because their release would jeopardize operations and lives.
Aren't Republicans supposed to be the ones who support the Rule of Law?
//
It might be nice if someone pointed out aht the current administration has been enforcing the law--regarding immigration and drugs etc. A lot of the stuff we bitch about is THE LAW. Instead of bitching about the POTUS, perhaps we could look to changing our laws.
It doesn't matter in the end, people will bitch, bitch, bitch . . .and we love our 24 hour news cycle.
Yes, I guess I'm feeling cynical this morning.
| 87 |
Eventual Carrion Thu, Jun 21, 2012 5:05:08am |
re: #53 Targetpractice
They're not even concerned about people, just one person. One American, whose name they invoke as some sort of ward against any accusations that F&F was just the continuation of Wide Receiver. I've heard it at least a dozen times since yesterday: "Oh yeah? Well nobody got killed when Bush was in office!" Except, you know, Mexicans killed with guns that were walked into Mexico and into the hands of the cartels. But we know that Mexicans don't matter, just Brian Terry, a guy who none of them know anything about other than he was a Border Patrol agent whose death is blamed on guns traced back to F&F.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Luis Aguilar
Date of Birth: November 26, 1976Entered on Duty: July 21, 2002
Title: Senior Patrol Agent
End of Watch: January 19, 2008
Details:
On Saturday, January 19, 2008, Senior Patrol Agent Luis Aguilar, of the Yuma, Arizona Border Patrol Station was murdered while in the performance of his duties.Agent Aguilar was attempting to deploy a set of tire deflation devices to stop a suspected smuggler who was attempting to evade our agents and escape into Mexico across the Imperial Sand Dunes in the Yuma Sector area. The suspect, driving a Hummer, accelerated his vehicle and intentionally swerved into Agent Aguilar. Agent Aguilar was unable to avoid the oncoming vehicle and was struck by the suspect vehicle. Despite efforts by his fellow agents and responding EMS, he died on the scene as a result of his injuries.
Agent Luis Aguilar began his career with the Border Patrol when he entered on duty July 21, 2002, as a member of the 519th Session of the Border Patrol Academy. He had been assigned to the Yuma Border Patrol Station since his graduation from the Academy. Agent Aguilar was 32 years old at the time of his death, and he leaves behind a wife and two children, his parents and a brother.
Maybe they should hold Hummer in contempt also.
| 88 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Jun 21, 2012 5:08:22am |
Good morning Lizards. Hot one in the ol' town yesterday and expected to continue today.
Feline Overlord is back from the hospital all clean and shiny. (They gave him a bath after the enema did its job.) His meds are modified now; blood pressure pill (1/day), eye ointment (2/day), liquid laxative (2/day - with water chaser; he hates getting this), and also gets some painkiller (2/day - this is a gel put on his gums to be absorbed.) And once he got home he ate two cans of cat food (3 oz each) in about 10 hours.
Had dinner at a Greek seafood place last night with a few of the contractors (Americans, not the Brazilians). Yummy, yummy, grilled squid.
And the discussion turned to politics. All three of us are independents, don't see how anyone voting their own interests could vote for Romney, but the discussion still turns around reasons not to be happy with Obama and various other policies. And a lot of discussion on various issues quickly revolves around standard bs talking points, or simply not being properly informed on this or that issue (and a thanks to the LGF community for helping with that.) Not much convincing was done, but it broadens the experience to see how three "independents" have varying views across the spectrum - "liberal" on some issues while more "conservative" on others and vice-versa. Which is probably why any sort of middle-of-the-road party won't be that cohesive.
| 89 |
RogueOne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 5:08:49am |
At 10 ET the USSC will issue one or more decisions on cases heard during the 2011-2012 term. I wonder if that means the HCR decision will come out.
Court Releases Decisions; Health Care & Immigration Rulings Possible
[Link: www.c-span.org...]
C-SPAN is outside of the U.S. Supreme Court today as the Justices release more rulings from this session. Of the ten decisions outstanding, two high-profile cases with far-reaching impact on federal health and immigration policy are generating the most attention.
| 90 |
makeitstop Thu, Jun 21, 2012 5:11:08am |
re: #83 RogueOne
I keep seeing that statement. What documents would those be?
You want me to tell you which classified documents Issa wants? Sorry, I don't have that information for you. Apparenlty they have to do with applications for wiretaps, according to Daily Caller.
Holder has offered to let the committee review these documents in a closed session, but Issa refused that offer.
Why would he do that?
| 91 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Thu, Jun 21, 2012 5:12:05am |
re: #90 makeitstop
You want me to tell you which classified documents Issa wants? Sorry, I don't have that information for you. Apparenlty they have to do with applications for wiretaps, according to Daily Caller.
Holder has offered to let the committee review these documents in a closed session, but Issa refused that offer.
Why would he do that?
Because he is playing party politics?
| 92 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Jun 21, 2012 5:13:06am |
re: #90 makeitstop
You want me to tell you which classified documents Issa wants? Sorry, I don't have that information for you. Apparenlty they have to do with applications for wiretaps, according to Daily Caller.
Holder has offered to let the committee review these documents in a closed session, but Issa refused that offer.
Why would he do that?
Because if he leaks stuff from a closed session his ass is on the line. And he doesn't get headlines unless he gets to cherrypick things to leak.
| 93 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Thu, Jun 21, 2012 5:14:41am |
re: #88 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste
Good morning Lizards. Hot one in the ol' town yesterday and expected to continue today.
Feline Overlord is back from the hospital all clean and shiny. (They gave him a bath after the enema did its job.) His meds are modified now; blood pressure pill (1/day), eye ointment (2/day), liquid laxative (2/day - with water chaser; he hates getting this), and also gets some painkiller (2/day - this is a gel put on his gums to be absorbed.) And once he got home he ate two cans of cat food (3 oz each) in about 10 hours.
Had dinner at a Greek seafood place last night with a few of the contractors (Americans, not the Brazilians). Yummy, yummy, grilled squid.
And the discussion turned to politics. All three of us are independents, don't see how anyone voting their own interests could vote for Romney, but the discussion still turns around reasons not to be happy with Obama and various other policies. And a lot of discussion on various issues quickly revolves around standard bs talking points, or simply not being properly informed on this or that issue (and a thanks to the LGF community for helping with that.) Not much convincing was done, but it broadens the experience to see how three "independents" have varying views across the spectrum - "liberal" on some issues while more "conservative" on others and vice-versa. Which is probably why any sort of middle-of-the-road party won't be that cohesive.
((Feline Overlord}}}}
| 94 |
dragonath Thu, Jun 21, 2012 5:15:59am |
| 95 |
RogueOne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 5:18:38am |
re: #90 makeitstop
I don't think that can be it. Issa removed that request from the subpoena and he has already offered the documents to the rest of the committee. Supposedly, He managed to get them from a "whistle blower"...
Issa Opens Secret Wiretap Applications to Member Review
[Link: www.rollcall.com...]
Issa and other key Republicans have asserted the wiretap applications, which were approved by senior Justice Department officials in Washington, D.C., include detailed descriptions of the tactics at the heart of the Fast and Furious scandal.
Attorney General Eric Holder and Rep. Elijah Cummings (D-Md.), ranking member on the Oversight panel, have disagreed with Issa’s characterizations and said the applications were reviewed narrowly for whether probable cause was present.
| 96 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Jun 21, 2012 5:19:28am |
re: #93 ggt
Once his eye issues (a corneal ulcer) clears up things will scale back. The ointment, and probably the painkiller. The blood pressure pill is standard and laxative (to some degree) is probably going to be since he keeps getting into this dehydration/constipation cycle that ends up getting him hospitalized to get him rehydrated via IV and flushed out. And if the laxative works and he stays hydrated I avoid having to start subcutaneous fluids and dealing with the needles and such for that*.
*- I did that with the one cat for about eight months. With a 20-gauge needle it reminded me of the rug punching crafts I did back in junior high. A really weird connection to make in regards to a pet.
| 97 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Thu, Jun 21, 2012 5:20:26am |
re: #96 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste
Once his eye issues (a corneal ulcer) clears up things will scale back. The ointment, and probably the painkiller. The blood pressure pill is standard and laxative (to some degree) is probably going to be since he keeps getting into this dehydration/constipation cycle that ends up getting him hospitalized to get him rehydrated via IV and flushed out. And if the laxative works and he stays hydrated I avoid having to start subcutaneous fluids and dealing with the needles and such for that*.
*- I did that with the one cat for about eight months. With a 20-gauge needle it reminded me of the rug punching crafts I did back in junior high. A really weird connection to make in regards to a pet.
OMG!
| 98 |
RogueOne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 5:20:39am |
re: #94 Be Zorch, Daddio
Today in Pakistan news:
FTA:
Ghazala Javed, 24, was shot six times by gunmen as she left a beauty salon, although police do not believe the Taliban was responsible for her murder and said her ex-husband was a suspect in the case.
Her father, who was with her, was also killed, police said.
"Two men on a motorbike sprayed bullets and fled leaving them in a pool of blood," senior police officer Dilawar Bangash told AFP.
She was shot six times and her father once in the head, Bangash said.
I guess ex-husbands going ballistic is universal.
| 99 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Thu, Jun 21, 2012 5:21:36am |
re: #98 RogueOne
FTA:
I guess ex-husbands going ballistic is universal.
What is that about? Once I have you no one else can?
I have never understood the phenom.
| 100 |
dragonfire1981 Thu, Jun 21, 2012 5:24:21am |
This could get interesting:
| 101 |
RogueOne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 5:25:13am |
re: #99 ggt
What is that about? Once I have you no one else can?
I have never understood the phenom.
I don't get it either. There's no doubt that women do it too but for the most part it seems like the vast majority of these kinds of killings are perpetrated by men. I'm still fairly friendly with my ex-wife but I was the one who moved her out so that might not be comparable. I don't know why anyone would want to stick around with someone who doesn't like them. That would have to be a miserable existence.
| 103 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Thu, Jun 21, 2012 5:29:04am |
| 104 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Thu, Jun 21, 2012 5:29:42am |
re: #101 RogueOne
I don't get it either. There's no doubt that women do it too but for the most part it seems like the vast majority of these kinds of killings are perpetrated by men. I'm still fairly friendly with my ex-wife but I was the one who moved her out so that might not be comparable. I don't know why anyone would want to stick around with someone who doesn't like them. That would have to be a miserable existence.
Must be some male/female ownership objectification thing I don't understand.
| 105 |
RogueOne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 5:32:22am |
I have a little bit of outside work I need to accomplish and I want to get it finished before it gets freaking hot. Plus, I want to get back in case the USSC drops the HCR ruling at 10. That should be a fun conversation////
If I'm not back, enjoy the day folks!
| 106 |
makeitstop Thu, Jun 21, 2012 5:33:40am |
re: #95 RogueOne
I don't think that can be it. Issa removed that request from the subpoena and he has already offered the documents to the rest of the committee. Supposedly, He managed to get them from a "whistle blower"...
Issa Opens Secret Wiretap Applications to Member Review
[Link: www.rollcall.com...]
Well, that indicates to me that Issa is moving the goal posts. If those documents were the sticking point at one time and he already got them, why is he demanding more?
And what's to stop him from demanding even more docs if these are produced? Sounds like he's more interested in milking this to make the White House look bad than wrapping up his investigation.
| 107 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Thu, Jun 21, 2012 5:36:32am |
Well, the dogs are taking their mid-morning nap. Since they got me up at daybreak, I'm going to join them.
Have a great day all!
| 108 |
Shropshire_Slasher Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:04:16am |
Heart warming story of a young man suffering with Duchenne muscular dystrophy
[Link: www.timesunion.com...]
Now I have to go hug my kids...
| 109 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:20:49am |
| 110 |
SidewaysQuark Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:21:19am |
I wouldn't call this a "fake outrage"; I'd call it "unfortunate business as usual for Federal agencies since the 1950's".
| 111 |
Romantic Heretic Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:25:07am |
Watched the video. What it makes me think of is a phenomena know as information disease.
Simply put, the mind takes in new information through the prism of the information already in there. Your perception of what you learn is affected by what you know.
This is why so much of the right 'understands' and believes what Fox News and the wingnut blogosphere puts out. It fits nicely into the information already in their minds.
The problem, of course, is that information isn't factual. Worse, it reinforces the conclusions that previous false information created. Worse still, it makes it impossible for them to hear, literally, any information that contradicts their beliefs. If you showed this Rachel Maddow video to them she'd sound like Charlie Brown's teacher; noises that only resemble speech.
A diet of diseased information creates information disease.
I don't know if information disease is considered a mental illness but it has all the earmarks of it. And as any cult deprogrammer can tell you it's very hard to treat.
| 112 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:25:23am |
re: #110 SidewaysQuark
I wouldn't call this a "fake outrage"; I'd call it "unfortunate business as usual for Federal agencies since the 1950's".
I consider it misplaced outrage. I'm sure there's plenty to criticize about the investigation but I'm pretty sure the Republican efforts are more about the results of the fast and furious investigation. A lot of legally bought weapons from the US are finding their way into the hands of Mexican cartels.
| 113 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:27:45am |
Julian Assange will be arrested regardless of Ecuador asylum decision
Police will arrest Julian Assange even if he is granted asylum with one legal expert claiming his only way out of the country is becoming Ecuador's representative to the UN.
Heh
| 114 |
iossarian Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:28:33am |
re: #112 Killgore Trout
I consider it misplaced outrage. I'm sure there's plenty to criticize about the investigation but I'm pretty sure the Republican efforts are more about the results of the fast and furious investigation. A lot of legally bought weapons from the US are finding their way into the hands of Mexican cartels.
Obviously, then, what we need are tighter controls over who gets to buy guns.
| 115 |
Romantic Heretic Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:29:17am |
re: #29 austin_blue
Bullets kill people.
Oh by the way, while I was producing a classical music festival the last two weeks, I happened upon Monty's Pawn Shop, where I purchased a 1939 Moisin-Nagant 7.62 X 54 rifle. It's with my gunsmith now, who says it's in excellent shape. I'm taking it out this weekend to see how it fires over iron sites. Always wanted one. With 80 rounds, it cost me $149.
I know, I know, Texas Democrats...
Is it hard to get ammo for that? As I recall that rifle uses a specific Soviet made round.
| 116 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:29:52am |
re: #114 iossarian
Obviously, then, what we need are tighter controls over who gets to buy guns.
I don't know how you're going to ban the Justice Dept from buying them!!
/
| 117 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:30:18am |
re: #114 iossarian
Obviously, then, what we need are tighter controls over who gets to buy guns.
We also need to look at straw buyers, how much they're buying and who they're buying for, ect.
| 118 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:30:43am |
re: #117 Killgore Trout
We also need to look at straw buyers, how much they're buying and who they're buying for, ect.
horses?
| 119 |
iossarian Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:31:48am |
re: #116 sattv4u2
I don't know how you're going to ban the Justice Dept from buying them!!
/
I'd like someone to show me the percentage of American guns that get to the cartels via private buyers, vs. the percentage that got to them via one program that was initiated by the Bush administration.
| 120 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:32:01am |
re: #109 Killgore Trout
George Zimmerman's Reenactment of Trayvon Martin Shooting (with video)
I'm not seeing anything amiss in his story. If the shooting happened they way he claimed it looks to me like simple self defense. Stand your ground may not apply.
| 122 |
lawhawk Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:32:45am |
re: #111 Romantic Heretic
It also plays into confirmation bias.
| 123 |
iossarian Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:34:12am |
re: #120 Killgore Trout
I'm not seeing anything amiss in his story. If the shooting happened they way he claimed it looks to me like simple self defense. Stand your ground may not apply.
Imagine that - according to his version of events, he's innocent!
Case closed.
| 124 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:34:22am |
As wrong as Issa is about any "take our guns" conspiracy, as in utterly wrong...
He is no more wrong than the Fast and Furious program was, the denials were, and the sheer reluctance to deal with Holder properly as he or Justice had to retract lie after lie about it.
re: #119 iossarian
As soon as this administration lied about it, they took full ownership of it. If not for the whistle-blowerrs, the denial would have prevailed.
| 125 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:34:43am |
re: #120 Killgore Trout
I'm not seeing anything amiss in his story. If the shooting happened they way he claimed it looks to me like simple self defense. Stand your ground may not apply.
The latest and most detailed account yet of what happened in Sanford, Fla., on Feb. 26 comes from a voice stress test that Zimmerman passed, along with a video re-enactment, a handwritten statement and audio interviews conducted in the days after the shooting by investigators.
The relatively consistent statements portray a man trying to convince investigators that he was in a life and death struggle that left him with little choice but to kill the unarmed teenager.
Looks like he went over it many times and his story didn't alter much with each telling
| 126 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:35:26am |
re: #124 Daniel Ballard
As soon as this administration lied about it, they took full ownership of it. If not for the whistle-blowerrs, the denial would have prevailed.
You beat me to it
| 127 |
SidewaysQuark Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:36:17am |
re: #112 Killgore Trout
I consider it misplaced outrage. I'm sure there's plenty to criticize about the investigation but I'm pretty sure the Republican efforts are more about the results of the fast and furious investigation. A lot of legally bought weapons from the US are finding their way into the hands of Mexican cartels.
I don't disagree with this at all.
| 128 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:36:41am |
re: #123 iossarian
Imagine that - according to his version of events, he's innocent!
Case closed.
see 125
If he wasn't telling the truth (at least in his own mind) the multiple telling of the story wouldn't be consistant
| 129 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:37:15am |
re: #119 iossarian
I'd like someone to show me the percentage of American guns that get to the cartels via private buyers, vs. the percentage that got to them via one program that was initiated by the Bush administration.
Sorry, that information is now protected hidden by executive privilege.
| 130 |
William Barnett-Lewis Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:37:43am |
re: #115 Romantic Heretic
Is it hard to get ammo for that? As I recall that rifle uses a specific Soviet made round.
Very easy & very cheap as a couple of gazillion rounds of it are in surplus channels. It's not one of my preferred chambering (7x57 or .30-30 for me, thanks) but lots of people like it. As long as you reload with appropriate bullets, it's in the same ballpark as the US .30-06 or German 7.92x57 and fully capable for hunting anything in North America.
| 131 |
Eventual Carrion Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:37:49am |
re: #120 Killgore Trout
I'm not seeing anything amiss in his story. If the shooting happened they way he claimed it looks to me like simple self defense. Stand your ground may not apply.
Except for maybe the autopsy fact that the shot wasn't point blank. If someone is sitting on your chest and you fire the gun at them it would definitely show signs of being point blank.
| 132 |
Amory Blaine Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:38:37am |
re: #126 sattv4u2
As soon as this administration lied about it, they took full ownership of it. If not for the whistle-blowerrs, the denial would have prevailed.You beat me to it
I feel that way about the last administration and the lies about Iraq.
| 133 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:38:42am |
| 134 |
Eventual Carrion Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:39:05am |
re: #125 sattv4u2
The latest and most detailed account yet of what happened in Sanford, Fla., on Feb. 26 comes from a voice stress test that Zimmerman passed, along with a video re-enactment, a handwritten statement and audio interviews conducted in the days after the shooting by investigators.
The relatively consistent statements portray a man trying to convince investigators that he was in a life and death struggle that left him with little choice but to kill the unarmed teenager.Looks like he went over it many times and his story didn't alter much with each telling
Neither does a Broadway play.
| 135 |
SidewaysQuark Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:39:10am |
Whether or not the criticism is deserved, I personally think that perception-wise, Holder has been the weak link in Obama's chain since Day One, and harsh as it is to say (but politics is a harsh business), that Obama would have been better off to throw him under the bus a long time ago.
Would I do it? No, but I'm not cut out for politics.
| 136 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:39:36am |
re: #125 sattv4u2
The latest and most detailed account yet of what happened in Sanford, Fla., on Feb. 26 comes from a voice stress test that Zimmerman passed, along with a video re-enactment, a handwritten statement and audio interviews conducted in the days after the shooting by investigators.
The relatively consistent statements portray a man trying to convince investigators that he was in a life and death struggle that left him with little choice but to kill the unarmed teenager.Looks like he went over it many times and his story didn't alter much with each telling
I also found his description of Trayvon's move towards the gun pretty convincing. It may have been coincidental but I can see how Zimmerman would think Trayvon was reaching for it.
| 137 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:40:05am |
re: #134 RayFerd
Neither does a Broadway play.
He was interviewed that night, the next day and the video is a few days later
Unlike the cast of CATS,Z didn't have any rehearsal time
| 138 |
William Barnett-Lewis Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:40:37am |
re: #120 Killgore Trout
I'm not seeing anything amiss in his story. If the shooting happened they way he claimed it looks to me like simple self defense. Stand your ground may not apply.
He wouldn't let me follow him like a perv so I got skeered and had to whack him
Of course he's going claim something like this. He'll probably even get away with it since the only real witness is, conveniently for Zimmerman, dead.
| 139 |
Romantic Heretic Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:41:04am |
re: #130 William Barnett-Lewis
Thanks.
| 140 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:41:37am |
re: #136 Killgore Trout
I also found his description of Trayvon's move towards the gun pretty convincing. It may have been coincidental but I can see how Zimmerman would think Trayvon was reaching for it.
Trayvons "move towards the gun" may have been nothing more than Z trying to fight him off and T, while trying to gain his balance his arm/ hand just went in the direction
| 141 |
Eventual Carrion Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:42:14am |
re: #137 sattv4u2
He was interviewed that night, the next day and the video is a few days later
Unlike the cast of CATS,Z didn't have any rehearsal time
Sticking to a story that you have concocted is pretty easy if you are not a moron. Once the facts (like the autopsy) come out that don't fit your story things get hairy.
| 142 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:43:37am |
re: #141 RayFerd
Sticking to a story that you have concocted is pretty easy
Not really! ESPECIALLY under professional questioning,, MULTIPLE times
| 143 |
iossarian Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:44:38am |
re: #129 Daniel Ballard
Sorry, that information is now
protectedhidden by executive privilege.
Raw numbers/estimates for the private buyers then. The complaints that guns are finding their way to Mexican cartels are 100% hypocritical given the right's absurd insistence on preventing any kind of gun sale restriction at any time.
As for the "cover-up" complaints, this is yet another example of Republicans latching onto something/anything in order to jam up the process of government and extract political advantage.
I'd have more time for it if there wasn't always some reason to wheel in the Grand Jury. ("The president is having an affair!" "The president is a Kenyan!" "The president is mean to puppies!")
| 144 |
William Barnett-Lewis Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:44:52am |
re: #142 sattv4u2
Sticking to a story that you have concocted is pretty easy
Not really! ESPECIALLY under professional questioning,, MULTIPLE times
Presumes the questioners actually want to poke holes in the story.
| 145 |
Interesting Times Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:46:13am |
Eric Holder being in comtempt of *this Congress* is a bit like the IRS being in contempt of Al Capone. #p2— Shoq Value (@Shoq) June 21, 2012
| 146 |
iossarian Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:46:13am |
re: #136 Killgore Trout
I also found his description of Trayvon's move towards the gun pretty convincing. It may have been coincidental but I can see how Zimmerman would think Trayvon was reaching for it.
OMG - he went for the gun!
I know that if I was in a fight with a gun-carrying weirdo who'd been following me through the neighborhood, the last thing I'd do is try to disarm him!
Why, that's practically an invitation for him to legally kill me!
| 147 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:49:17am |
re: #145 Interesting Times
[Embedded content]
Maybe we should get Tim Geithner on the case!! He seems to know how to handle IRS issues!!
| 148 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:52:26am |
re: #143 iossarian
As soon as you look at only one segment of the numbers your conclusions are crap. The fact is straw buyer means somebody lied and committed a felony or two right there. Just enforcing the laws we have would help.
Then to understand the perspective, you have to find out all the major sources. Like armories broken into. Like guns smuggled in along with the drugs from further south. Like cartel deals with international gun runners.
Get all or most of that and then you have the data for some perspective.
| 149 |
SidewaysQuark Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:53:24am |
re: #146 iossarian
OMG - he went for the gun!
I know that if I was in a fight with a gun-carrying weirdo who'd been following me through the neighborhood, the last thing I'd do is try to disarm him!
Why, that's practically an invitation for him to legally kill me!
Zimmerman strikes me as the archetypal mall ninja who had no clue how to properly handle the responsibility of carrying a firearm. Who'dathunk something would ever go wrong?
| 150 |
kirkspencer Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:54:24am |
re: #100 dragonfire1981
This could get interesting:
Nah, notice the details. It's a group of Latino elected officials in Florida he's addressing. So we're talking Cuban-American Republican politicians - the odds are there will be no awkward questions.
| 151 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:54:53am |
re: #143 iossarian
BRB I gotta commute & log on downtown.
| 152 |
kirkspencer Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:56:14am |
re: #119 iossarian
I'd like someone to show me the percentage of American guns that get to the cartels via private buyers, vs. the percentage that got to them via one program that was initiated by the Bush administration.
We can't know due to laws enacted in response to demands of second amendment protections. Private buyer sales aren't tracked.
| 154 |
Eventual Carrion Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:59:33am |
re: #142 sattv4u2
Sticking to a story that you have concocted is pretty easy
Not really! ESPECIALLY under professional questioning,, MULTIPLE times
I can't watch the video here. Did they ask him what happened and just let him tell his tale? Or did they pick at every point of the story? Something he said seemed to prompt at least one investigator to think he was not being straightforward. And the autopsy shows that he was a little distance from the victim when the shot was fired. If victim is sitting on your chest there is no room between you. So if his story is believable then he mist have gotten up at some point, drew his weapon and fired from a distance of a couple/few feet away.
| 155 |
Interesting Times Thu, Jun 21, 2012 6:59:40am |
Why aren't major news networks reporting on how Issa burned down his own buildings for the insurance & stole cars, blaming his own brother?— Eileen Left(TM) (@EileenLeft) June 21, 2012
| 156 |
SidewaysQuark Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:02:13am |
re: #144 William Barnett-Lewis
Presumes the questioners actually want to poke holes in the story.
In which case it's hard to tell a consistent story, even if you're truthful. That's why you NEVER, NEVER, NEVER let the police interrogate you without an attorney present.
| 157 |
iossarian Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:04:10am |
re: #152 kirkspencer
We can't know due to laws enacted in response to demands of second amendment protections. Private buyer sales aren't tracked.
Well, exactly. Crack down on guns that might make their way to Mexico, I'm all for that.
This F&F performance is a waste of everyone's time.
| 158 |
iossarian Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:07:18am |
re: #155 Interesting Times
[Embedded content]
I'm willing to believe that the car thing was his brother (and that he erred by going along with it, but everyone makes mistakes).
The arson thing is unbelievable though. How on earth did he get away with that? I mean, they took valuable stuff out of the building a few days before the fire!
| 159 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:07:28am |
re: #154 RayFerd
I can't watch the video here. Did they ask him what happened and just let him tell his tale? Or did they pick at every point of the story? Something he said seemed to prompt at least one investigator to think he was not being straightforward. And the autopsy shows that he was a little distance from the victim when the shot was fired. If victim is sitting on your chest there is no room between you. So if his story is believable then he mist have gotten up at some point, drew his weapon and fired from a distance of a couple/few feet away.
Judging from the transcripts of the other questionings they did rake him over the coals a bit, did the "good cop/Bad cop" thing", tried to rattle him, etc. He does describe the shooting in the video. If there is some inconsitency with the autopsy, angle or proximity of the shot then we'll know about it.
| 160 |
SidewaysQuark Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:13:12am |
re: #159 Killgore Trout
Judging from the transcripts of the other questionings they did rake him over the coals a bit, did the "good cop/Bad cop" thing", tried to rattle him, etc. He does describe the shooting in the video. If there is some inconsitency with the autopsy, angle or proximity of the shot then we'll know about it.
I don't doubt that Zimmerman found himself in a situation where he was in a very scary struggle. The question lingering in my mind is why and how he got drawn into that situation in the first place.
| 161 |
Shropshire_Slasher Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:16:11am |
Of course he is a serial killer, look at him!
[Link: www.nypost.com...]
| 162 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:16:28am |
re: #160 SidewaysQuark
I don't doubt that Zimmerman found himself in a situation where he was in a very scary struggle. The question lingering in my mind is why and how he got drawn into that situation in the first place.
According to his account Trayvon hid in the bushes and ambushed him. Also in that account Zimmerman talks about calling for help and Trayvon putting his hands over Zimmerman's mouth telling him to shut the fuck up.
| 163 |
Joanne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:17:09am |
re: #8 jaunte
He has private health insurance through his wife, who works for a company that sells forklift products.
And if his wife loses her job, he can kiss his insurance good-bye as that preexisting condition will preclude him from getting private insurance. That would put him on Medicare (GOVERNMENT RUN INSURANCE!) or Medicaid. I wonder if he'd be as forceful about Obamacare then. Or when Medicare disappears and is no longer an option...Oh, wait...it is an option. The government will dole out $8000 in vouchers and you're on your own. Don't mention that an average family pays more than $1000 PER MONTH for the privilege of having insurance, before they ever use it.
Talk about a clown.
| 164 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:17:53am |
Syrian fighter pilot defects to Jordan
The Russian-made MiG-21 landed at the King Hussein Air Base in Mafraq, close to the Syrian border, officials said.
It is believed to be the first such defection by a Syrian pilot with his plane.
A spokesman for the rebel Free Syrian Army, Ahmad Kassem, said the group had encouraged the pilot to defect, the Associated Press news agency reported.
| 165 |
Amory Blaine Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:22:05am |
[Link: twitter.com...]re: #163 Joanne (JustJay)
The libertarian is already on disability. Doesn't seem to have a problem with it. At least from the article.
| 166 |
Mattand Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:22:16am |
re: #162 Killgore Trout
According to his account Trayvon hid in the bushes and ambushed him. Also in that account Zimmerman talks about calling for help and Trayvon putting his hands over Zimmerman's mouth telling him to shut the fuck up.
What a load of crap. Zimmerman let his vigilante fantasy get out of control and he's saying anything to avoid jail. And since he killed the only other witness, he'll probably get away with it.
| 167 |
iossarian Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:25:27am |
re: #162 Killgore Trout
According to his account Trayvon hid in the bushes and ambushed him. Also in that account Zimmerman talks about calling for help and Trayvon putting his hands over Zimmerman's mouth telling him to shut the fuck up.
Please, enough with the breathless reporting of "Zimmerman's account".
What do you expect him to say? "Yes, it's true, I followed him, provoked him to the point where he panicked and fought back, and then I shot him"?
| 168 |
Varek Raith Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:26:33am |
re: #162 Killgore Trout
According to his account Trayvon hid in the bushes and ambushed him. Also in that account Zimmerman talks about calling for help and Trayvon putting his hands over Zimmerman's mouth telling him to shut the fuck up.
He's already lied to the court.
Why do you think he has any credibility?
| 169 |
Amory Blaine Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:28:33am |
Apparently the opinions are over for the day at SCOTUS no health opinion today.
| 170 |
Mattand Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:28:56am |
From Zimmerman's written account:
“I unholstered my firearm in fear for my life as he had assured me he was going to kill me and fired one shot into his torso,” Zimmerman wrote. “The suspect sat back allowing me to sit up and said ‘you got me.’”
Apparently Trayvon Martin had a part time job as an Old Timey Gunslinger.
Anyone who buys this horseshit needs to get their critical thinking skills in the shop, ASAP.
| 171 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:29:29am |
re: #168 Varek Raith
He's already lied to the court.
Why do you think he has any credibility?
Because so far the physical evidence seems to support his account. For him to be found guilty is going to require evidence that contradicts his account of the shooting.
| 172 |
makeitstop Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:29:35am |
re: #168 Varek Raith
He's already lied to the court.
Why do you think he has any credibility?
That's what I don't get.
This guy thought he could get away with concealing $200K in donations from a judge.
He's in ass-saving mode, period. And dead men tell no tales offer no conflicting testimony.
| 173 |
Interesting Times Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:29:40am |
re: #169 Amory Blaine
Apparently the opinions are over for the day at SCOTUS no health opinion today.
As for the ones that did get handed down:
US Supreme Court strikes down policy regulating curse words on broadcast television - @AP— Breaking News (@BreakingNews) June 21, 2012
Fuck yeah! ;)
| 174 |
makeitstop Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:30:35am |
re: #173 Interesting Times
As for the ones that did get handed down:
[Embedded content]
Fuck yeah! ;)
I look forward to f-bombs on 'The View.'
/
| 175 |
RogueOne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:31:00am |
re: #171 Killgore Trout
Because so far the physical evidence seems to support his account. For him to be found guilty is going to require evidence that contradicts his account of the shooting.
Don't forget the video just released that shows him making the statements while passing a voice stress test.
| 176 |
RogueOne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:32:21am |
re: #169 Amory Blaine
Apparently the opinions are over for the day at SCOTUS no health opinion today.
I wish they'd get it out of the damn way. I'd rather argue about it now than in October. Although, my guess is no matter what we'll still be arguing about it all through next year no matter what they decide.
| 177 |
Targetpractice Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:33:14am |
re: #175 RogueOne
Don't forget the video just released that shows him making the statements while passing a voice stress test.
Which only means that, as far as the test is concerned, he believes what he's saying.
| 178 |
Eventual Carrion Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:33:29am |
re: #175 RogueOne
Don't forget the video just released that shows him making the statements while passing a voice stress test.
Many to most voice stress tests are not allowed in courts, though some do. Their scientific validity has come into question quite a few times.
| 179 |
RogueOne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:33:53am |
re: #177 Targetpractice
Which only means that, as far as the test is concerned, he believes what he's saying.
I believe that's all that matters. If he had a reasonable belief that he had to use deadly force to save his life......
| 180 |
iossarian Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:35:23am |
re: #179 RogueOne
I believe that's all that matters. If he had a reasonable belief that he had to use deadly force to save his life...
So it's now legal for paranoid nutbags to summarily execute people they think look suspicious.
Congratulations America!
| 181 |
Mattand Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:35:43am |
re: #179 RogueOne
I believe that's all that matters. If he had a reasonable belief that he had to use deadly force to save his life...
...after stalking a teenage kid because Zimmerman didn't like the fact a black dude was walking around the neighborhood.
| 182 |
RogueOne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:36:11am |
re: #180 iossarian
So it's now legal for paranoid nutbags to summarily execute people they think look suspicious.
Congratulations America!
The key is "reasonable". Having someone sitting on your chest kicking your ass probably plays a role in it.
| 183 |
Targetpractice Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:36:19am |
re: #179 RogueOne
I believe that's all that matters. If he had a reasonable belief that he had to use deadly force to save his life...
I think we all have heard by now about the unreliability of eyewitness testimony.
| 184 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:37:49am |
re: #178 RayFerd
Many to most voice stress tests are not allowed in courts, though some do. Their scientific validity has come into question quite a few times.
I think police use it as an investigative tool. The stress test involved some aggressive questioning and trying to rattle him. I guess they use the tests to find possible holes in his story that require more investigation.
| 185 |
Mattand Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:38:05am |
re: #182 RogueOne
The key is "reasonable". Having someone sitting on your chest kicking your ass probably plays a role in it.
Right. Because Zimmerman was just simply taking an evening stroll with his loaded weapon and some kid hopped up on Skittles and iced tea came at him.
| 186 |
iossarian Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:38:38am |
re: #182 RogueOne
The key is "reasonable". Having someone sitting on your chest kicking your ass probably plays a role in it.
OK. So if the rapist we were talking about yesterday had killed the girl's father, that would be fine with you?
After all - he got killed by the father, so his life was quite obviously in danger.
| 187 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:39:22am |
re: #182 RogueOne
The key is "reasonable". Having someone sitting on your chest kicking your ass probably plays a role in it.
...and trying to silence your calls for help. I can't think of a moral or legal reason for somebody to endure that.
| 188 |
iossarian Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:41:00am |
re: #187 Killgore Trout
...and trying to silence your calls for help. I can't think of a moral or legal reason for somebody to endure that.
I'll ask you the same question I just asked Rogue. If the guy who was raping the 5-year old had shot the girl's father after he (the father) attacked him, would that be murder in your view?
Or would he be standing his ground?
Remember, the circumstances leading up to the struggle are not relevant.
| 189 |
Joanne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:42:06am |
re: #33 Blizard
It is my opinion. I really think her style of reporting reminds me of him. And perhaps because of that she really looks like him too. Association I guess.
Regardless, because of her style of reporting I don't think enough people will watch the video or take her seriously- she seems to be almost comical or cocky?
I saw it more as incredulous.
| 190 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:42:22am |
re: #188 iossarian
I'll ask you the same question I just asked Rogue. If the guy who was raping the 5-year old had shot the girl's father after he (the father) attacked him, would that be murder in your view?
Or would he be standing his ground?
Remember, the circumstances leading up to the struggle are not relevant.
Zimmerman was not caught in the act of raping a baby so I don't think your analogy applies to this situation.
| 191 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:42:36am |
re: #187 Killgore Trout
...and trying to silence your calls for help. I can't think of a moral or legal reason for somebody to endure that.
Really? You're fine with people killing each other during a fistfight where the other guy has you down on the ground and is punching you?
Going back to the woman who got stomped on by the Rand Paul supporters, would it be okay for her to have shot them while they attacked her?
[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]
Or for other people to have shot them?
| 192 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:42:56am |
Anyone else notice the Freudian slip Rachel made at 15:47-15:51?
"That was the National Rifle Association President, Wayne LaPierre speaking at the anal CPAC conference."
I think you meant annual Rachel, but anal works just as well I guess. ;)
| 193 |
iossarian Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:43:53am |
re: #190 Killgore Trout
Zimmerman was not caught in the act of raping a baby so I don't think your analogy applies to this situation.
That's not the point. Zimmerman caused the entire incident, but you believe that this fact is irrelevant.
It therefore has to be irrelevant in other cases as well. You can't pick and choose when the provocation is relevant and when it isn't.
| 194 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:43:57am |
Morning Lizardim from the wet and wild wild north country. Away south we've escaped the catastrophic flooding of the far north, but that doesn't mean we're out of the woods by a long shot. Pretty much everything up here is straining at its banks after the last few rounds of rain, and we're due up for another string this weekend. So much for the "drought conditions" caused by the mild winter.
| 195 |
Targetpractice Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:44:03am |
re: #188 iossarian
I'll ask you the same question I just asked Rogue. If the guy who was raping the 5-year old had shot the girl's father after he (the father) attacked him, would that be murder in your view?
Or would he be standing his ground?
Remember, the circumstances leading up to the struggle are not relevant.
Legally it is, because the guy was in the commission of a felony when the father attacked him.
Meanwhile, so far as the evidence released by discovery, Zimmerman hasn't been proven to be in the commission of even a class three felony at the time.
| 196 |
Eventual Carrion Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:44:06am |
re: #184 Killgore Trout
I think police use it as an investigative tool. The stress test involved some aggressive questioning and trying to rattle him. I guess they use the tests to find possible holes in his story that require more investigation.
I have yet to see a transcript of why at least one officer thought there was reason to dig deeper into Zimm's story. Something prompted him and maybe others on the force to not believe everything Zimm said as true. I am sure that is in the documentation the court and prosecutors have as well. We just don't have all the facts, but speculation can be fun too.
| 197 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:44:30am |
re: #187 Killgore Trout
By the way, why are you stating it as fact that Trayvon was trying to 'silence' his calls for help?
| 198 |
makeitstop Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:45:41am |
re: #197 Obdicut
By the way, why are you stating it as fact that Trayvon was trying to 'silence' his calls for help?
Because Zimmerman said so! And Trayvon didn't say he wasn't, right?
///
| 199 |
Mattand Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:46:47am |
I just don't get this need to believe Martin is partially responsible for his own murder.
| 200 |
iossarian Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:47:52am |
re: #199 Mattand
I just don't get this need to believe Martin is partially responsible for his own murder.
I don't either, and I'm done with right-wing pretzel logic and equivocation for now. Laters all.
| 201 |
Joanne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:48:30am |
re: #44 sagehen
Anderson Cooper, yum. Love that silver fox thing he has going. (Sadly, his looks are diminished by his stupid little floofy dog; unlike Rachel, who has a real DAWG-dog.)
Floofy dog?? That's a Welsh Springer Spaniel. I have a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel (18 lbs), who, by looks alone, is totally floofy. But of my six dogs, she is the hunter. She catches all the vermin in my yard. She is always on guard. She puts the Brittany (45 lbs), Visla (60 lbs) and Italian pointer (85 lbs) to shame.
Don't be dissin' the dog now! :-)
| 202 |
RogueOne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:49:58am |
re: #188 iossarian
I'll ask you the same question I just asked Rogue. If the guy who was raping the 5-year old had shot the girl's father after he (the father) attacked him, would that be murder in your view?
Or would he be standing his ground?
Remember, the circumstances leading up to the struggle are not relevant.
If I'm reading your question correctly I think the grand juries decision, that it was self-defense, would still hold. He would have been legally (and IMO morally) within his rights to resort to deadly force to protect someone being raped.
| 203 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:50:12am |
re: #201 Joanne (JustJay)
I say two of those King Charles spaniels out on the street on my way to the gym. They were amazingly friendly. Cute breed.
| 204 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:52:08am |
I do not believe George Zimmerman. One of the reasons goes right to what many have been taught and then seen in the real world. This is probably useless in court.
I just don't buy that a guy in that much *peril is going to only fire once. It's possible of course, it just seems awfully unlikely as told.
*Beat up, on his back with the attacker in full control on top and trying to silence you. BTW-This is from a clip I heard on the radio this morning purportedly from GZ.
Even people well trained would fire at least two or three, look at what we see from cops at gunfights.
| 205 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:56:48am |
re: #204 Daniel Ballard
I do not believe George Zimmerman. One of the reasons goes right to what many have been taught and then seen in the real world. This is probably useless in court.
I just don't buy that a guy in that much *peril is going to only fire once. It's possible of course, it just seems awfully unlikely as told.
*Beat up, on his back with the attacker in full control on top and trying to silence you. BTW-This is from a clip I heard on the radio this morning purportedly from GZ.
Even people well trained would fire at least two or three, look at what we see from cops at gunfights.
NEver thought about that but I share your disbelief. What makes me skeptical is the fact that Zim is a bigger guy than Martin was. That makes me think it was unlikely that Martin started the scuffle.
| 206 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:57:50am |
re: #204 Daniel Ballard
Zimmerman's credibility is getting more sunk every day, what with moving money out of his account into his wife's-- in amounts under the $10,000 reporting level-- and then back again, in some severely moronic plan to be able to declare him indigent even know they knew they had more than a hundred thousand bucks.
That is such an enormous error in judgement-- thinking some weird little code is going to keep the conversation private, or that judges really don't care about being lied to.
| 207 |
RogueOne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:58:23am |
re: #199 Mattand
I just don't get this need to believe Martin is partially responsible for his own murder.
Maybe it's because that's the direction the evidence points? Why is it important that Zimmerman be labelled a racist when all the evidence points otherwise?
| 208 |
SidewaysQuark Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:59:28am |
re: #162 Killgore Trout
According to his account Trayvon hid in the bushes and ambushed him. Also in that account Zimmerman talks about calling for help and Trayvon putting his hands over Zimmerman's mouth telling him to shut the fuck up.
I'm just saying that I don't typically stop my car on the side of the road and get out to investigate suspicious bushes with my handgun.
| 209 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 21, 2012 7:59:50am |
Most street fights wind up on the ground at some point-- if they're not just a couple of punches and then the bros stepping in to haul everyone back. Most one on one fights go to the ground, because most people don't really know how to fight and kind of naturally grapple.
So, if we're allowed lethal force for when the other guy has you on the ground, then most streetfights are now lethal force incidents. I bet that'll work out fine.
| 210 |
makeitstop Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:00:07am |
re: #207 RogueOne
Maybe it's because that's the direction the evidence points? Why is it important that Zimmerman be labelled a racist when all the evidence points otherwise?
Who's calling him a racist? Most people are just saying that he lacks credibility due to his lying in court, and that parts of his story don't add up.
| 211 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:00:48am |
re: #201 Joanne (JustJay)
Floofy dog?? That's a Welsh Springer Spaniel. I have a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel (18 lbs), who, by looks alone, is totally floofy. But of my six dogs, she is the hunter. She catches all the vermin in my yard. She is always on guard. She puts the Brittany (45 lbs), Visla (60 lbs) and Italian pointer (85 lbs) to shame.
Don't be dissin' the dog now! :-)
Yup
McDuff (18 lb Westie) is the brave one while Boots (50 lb retriever mix) is spooked by anything that moves (all the while Einstein, 12 lb terrier mix barks his disapproval of both of the others!)
| 212 |
Elias Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:04:07am |
OT
What are exactly the "featured pages" on the side ? What is the difference with the usual posts ?
| 213 |
RogueOne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:04:24am |
re: #210 makeitstop
Who's calling him a racist?
Seriously?
Most people are just saying that he lacks credibility due to his lying in court, and that parts of his story don't add up.
That part I can agree with, he withheld info from the court and tried to hide the money. OTOH, I haven't seen anything in all the interviews, in the entire police investigation, that shows anything other than Martin being the one that doubled back to confront Zimmerman and kick his ass. He was 100 yards from his house. If he was walking home there was no way Z would have ever caught up with him. He had to have been the one that came back.
| 214 |
RogueOne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:05:23am |
See? If the USSC had done their job today we'd be arguing something almost entirely new instead of rehashing the Z vs. Martin case.
| 215 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:05:46am |
re: #213 RogueOne
You're making an assumption that he doubled back in order to 'kick his ass'. And I don't know if I'd lead a weird, threatening stranger back to my family, or let them know where I lived.
| 216 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:06:22am |
re: #209 Obdicut
That works as long as the guy on top no longer uses much force. He is under little or no threat at that point. So if he just uses the force of restraint all is good pending intervention or and end.
If the guy on top goes for a choke, starts escalating or continuing the blows upon the man laid out it's another thing completely. And that is where the jury will believe or not.
| 218 |
gwangung Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:08:24am |
re: #162 Killgore Trout
According to his account Trayvon hid in the bushes and ambushed him. Also in that account Zimmerman talks about calling for help and Trayvon putting his hands over Zimmerman's mouth telling him to shut the fuck up.
I seriously doubt that this happened. If Martin put his hands over Zimmerman's mouth, there'd be physical evidence of that, either biting Martin's hand, or lacerations of Zimmerman's inner lip or Martin's palm, neither of which of have been mentioned, far as I can tell.
| 219 |
makeitstop Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:09:15am |
re: #213 RogueOne
Seriously?
Speaking strictly for the responses on this thread, yes, seriously.
No one that I've seen has brought up the racial angle that I've seen today. Granted, I've been ducking in and out while working so I may have missed it.
| 220 |
Joanne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:09:40am |
re: #165 Amory Blaine
[Link: twitter.com...]
The libertarian is already on disability. Doesn't seem to have a problem with it. At least from the article.
My point exactly.
| 221 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:09:50am |
Ah. Another Trayvon/Zimmerman argument. Guess I'll see everyone tomorrow. Later lizards.
| 222 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:11:32am |
re: #216 Daniel Ballard
Really, again, it's really, really, really hard to beat someone to death with your fists. You will almost always break the shit out of your hands before you get anywhere close to lethal damage.
This is why boxers wear gloves; so that they can actually beat the shit out of each other with their fists. Back in the old bare-knuckled boxing days, I think only like one guy ever died during a fight. These days, multiple people die every year, because now we can punch each other in the head.
Obviously, there are ways that you can do more damage to someone when they're on the ground. But it's not reasonable to assume that someone beating you up is going to kill you. It's not. It's natural for a fearful person to panic and feel that way, but it's not actually a reasonable take on things.
I dunno, if we allow this sort of behavior from gun owners, maybe all gun owners should have to go through some sparring matches so they can understand just how much you can get beat up without being anywhere close to dying or being permanently damaged.
| 223 |
RogueOne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:13:15am |
re: #219 makeitstop
Speaking strictly for the responses on this thread, yes, seriously.
No one that I've seen has brought up the racial angle that I've seen today. Granted, I've been ducking in and out while working so I may have missed it.
re: #181 Mattand
Which is why my question was directed at him.
| 224 |
makeitstop Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:13:36am |
I am having a hard time believing that Martin smashed his head on the concrete numerous times. That would render anyone unconscious.
| 225 |
gwangung Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:14:52am |
re: #216 Daniel Ballard
That works as long as the guy on top no longer uses much force. He is under little or no threat at that point. So if he just uses the force of restraint all is good pending intervention or and end.
If the guy on top goes for a choke, starts escalating or continuing the blows upon the man laid out it's another thing completely. And that is where the jury will believe or not.
Just as a sidenote, I have a somewhat hard time with the legal doctrine of being fearful for his life in a fist fight. It's hard to kill someone with just your bare knuckles. And even if Zimmerman's account was true and Martin was on top of him, wacking him in the face, that does not equate to murderous intent or intent to injure seriously. Wanting to win a fist fight is not the same as wanting to kill, and a legal analysis where the two are treated as the same is problematic to me.
| 226 |
RogueOne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:14:59am |
K. I'm gone too. Everyone enjoy their day and lets be careful out there.
| 227 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:17:58am |
Naked Mom Found Eating Ice Cream After Car Wreck:
One scoop or two!!
[Link: www.nbcdfw.com...]
A Texas mom was found naked and eating ice cream at a drug store after having crashed her car into a bus and abandoned her three kids at the scene, according to police.
"Ma'am, do you want sprinkles on that cone,,and,, umm,, btw ,, you do know you're naked, right??"
| 228 |
Targetpractice Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:19:11am |
I think at this point it should be noted that the law doesn't just say reasonable belief of death, but also "great bodily harm."
And that, while the odds of being killed by repeated punches to the head might be slim, the chances of a person who's taking those repeated punches having the time to think rationally about how likely he is to die and choose not to use deadly force, is equally as slim.
| 229 |
Eventual Carrion Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:19:45am |
re: #226 RogueOne
K. I'm gone too. Everyone enjoy their day and lets be careful out there.
[Embedded content]
Like a midget at a urinal, stay on your toes.
- Lt. Frank Drebin - Police Squad
| 230 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:20:46am |
re: #207 RogueOne
Maybe it's because that's the direction the evidence points? Why is it important that Zimmerman be labelled a racist when all the evidence points otherwise?
So you are a 17 year old kid walking alone and after dusk on your way back to your father's girlfriends condo. You notice a man that you don't know obviously following you slowly in his car as you walk through the development. When you leave the streetside sidewalks and turn onto the walkway between the condo buildings the man parks his car, gets out, and then rapidly approaches you on foot.
Do you:
A: Assume that he possibly means you harm and prepare to defend yourself?
B: Assume that he is the neighborhood welcome wagon designee and that he is bringing you a fruit basket?
C: Simply wonder why someone is following you, perhaps they want to steal the skittles you just purchased?
| 231 |
lawhawk Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:23:40am |
Supreme Court ruling time. The Court reverses the 2d Circuit on the FCC indecency case against Fox and CBS. It found that the FCC fair notice rules were impermissibly vague:
Because the Commission failed to give Fox or ABC fair notice prior to the broadcasts in question that fleeting expletives and momentary nudity could be found actionably indecent, the Commission’s
standards as applied to these broadcasts were vague.
The Court sidestepped 1st Amendment questions and revisiting Pacifica.
It was a very narrow ruling.
| 232 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:23:53am |
re: #228 Targetpractice
Sure. Which is something to think about in terms of letting people go around armed. In this case, someone taking repeated punches who wound up being very lightly injured with no real reason for us to think he was going to be killed, panicked (probably) and killed the other guy. This is not a good situation. If we acknowledge people are that panicky, that's a good argument for strong gun control.
I personally think that people can easily not panic in those situations, or at least that when you get a gun license you can be trained that being beaten up is not a justified reason to shoot the other person.
If we really wind up with a situation where anyone with a gun is allowed to shoot someone if they're losing a fight, that is going to make me extremely distrustful of gun owners, especially those who don't have a legitimate business reason for carrying them.
Do you think that in any fight with a gun owner, you can reasonably conclude that the gun owner will shoot you if he begins losing the fight? Serious question.
| 233 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:24:25am |
re: #212 Elias
OT
What are exactly the "featured pages" on the side ? What is the difference with the usual posts ?
Those are pages that Charles has decided to elevate personally to the featured status because he thought them note worthy in some respect.
| 234 |
Interesting Times Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:25:26am |
re: #222 Obdicut
Really, again, it's really, really, really hard to beat someone to death with your fists. You will almost always break the shit out of your hands before you get anywhere close to lethal damage.
I'm not sure I can fully agree with this. The father who killed the pedophile raping his daughter did so with his bare hands:
The father said on June 9, 2012 he heard his 5-year-old daughter crying from behind a barn, he ran and discovered the unthinkable: A man molesting his daughter. It was reported by authorities the father pulled the man off his daughter and started pummeling him to death with his fists.
And wouldn't the size, weight, and strength of the attacker (compared to the victim) also play a role? [Link: documentaries.about.com...]
It is that of Kori Cioca, a former Seaman in the U.S. Coast Guard, who has been forced to fight for insurance coverage for necessary ongoing treatment for the post traumatic stress and reconstruction of her fractured jaw, injuries she sustained during her assault.
She has permanent facial nerve damage as a result of that assault.
| 235 |
gwangung Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:26:26am |
re: #232 Obdicut
Sure. Which is something to think about in terms of letting people go around armed. In this case, someone taking repeated punches who wound up being very lightly injured with no real reason for us to think he was going to be killed, panicked (probably) and killed the other guy. This is not a good situation. If we acknowledge people are that panicky, that's a good argument for strong gun control.
I'm thinking two or three punches, whereupon Zimmerman panicked.
| 236 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:26:35am |
re: #231 lawhawk
What was the vote? I read three stories on it and they didn't give the breakdown
OTOH,,, In A 7-2 decision
Union must give fee increase notice
The Supreme Court ruled Thursday that unions must give nonmembers an immediate chance to object to unexpected fee increases or special assessments that all workers are required to pay in closed-shop situations.
[Link: hosted.ap.org...]
| 237 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:27:30am |
re: #222 Obdicut
You hit on the critical point. Self defense training really must be mixed disciplines. It is hard to beat someone to death. But it's easy to go for the knock out. Then the killing is a simple choke out. I'll not bet my life that would not happen after taking a major beating.
But to repeat for emphasis, the guy on top is no longer under any serious threat. He has the obligation to use no more force than restraint. That's not choking, not hitting, not anything but restraint of the person. Everything more is assault. So if you find yourself down and getting hit or choked it's very different than being restrained. And should be treated as such.
| 238 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:28:47am |
re: #212 Elias
Heya-- if you're the dude I'm remembering, you never got around to explaining exactly what you meant by France having a crisis of national cohesion. Can you further elucidate? For example, France deported tons of Roma in a typical European persecution of the Roma; is this something you see as good, because it helps France keep national cohesion? Or is it bad for how terribly it treats the Roma, even though it obviously causes stress on France's national cohesion-- if I'm understanding what you mean by it correctly.
| 239 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:31:50am |
re: #234 Interesting Times
I said that it's hard, not that it's impossible. And yes, obviously, size/strength/weight difference matters.
You can also wind up killing someone by punching them really hard in the sternum, or just throwing a baseball at them. But it's rare, and bare-handed assaults shouldn't be assumed to be lethal by the people receiving them. That way lies a very dark libertarian shoot-em-up future.
| 240 |
Elias Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:31:59am |
re: #238 Obdicut
I'm pretty sure I answered. I'm not really aware of the situation of the Roma, to be honest, it's very specific and has no link with national cohesion, in my opinion.
| 241 |
lawhawk Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:33:09am |
re: #236 sattv4u2
It was 8-0. Sotomayor took no part (since this was a 2d Circuit case); Ginsberg offered a concurring opinion - which calls for Pacifica to be reconsidered.
| 242 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:33:44am |
re: #241 lawhawk
It was 8-0. Sotomayor took no part (since this was a 2d Circuit case); Ginsberg offered a concurring opinion - which calls for Pacifica to be reconsidered.
Thanks
Odd that the stories I saw re: it didn't include the vote
| 243 |
Targetpractice Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:35:30am |
re: #232 Obdicut
Serious answer, I think every situation is different, from the circumstances to the people involved. It's why I hate laws like SYG, where a law that could be argued as meant to protect innocent people caught up in bad situations can just as easily be used to protect dipshits who knowingly walk into bad encounters and then begin shooting when they panic.
Unfortunately in this case, SYG law exists, Zimmerman's defense is predicated upon it, and he's very likely to win based upon the evidence made available to the public so far. There might be further evidence that dismantles that defense, but right now, it's unavailable to the public and we can only speculate as to its existence.
| 244 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:35:43am |
re: #240 Elias
I'm pretty sure I answered. I'm not really aware of the situation of the Roma, to be honest, it's very specific and has no link with national cohesion, in my opinion.
Wait, you are French, right? And you managed to miss all the news stories about the French deportation of Roma?
How can you say that it has no link to national cohesion? Most of the Roma aren't French, though they are European citizens and so entitled to a lot of free movement in the euro-zone.
How is the subject of a group of immigrants-- the Roma-- not related to national cohesion? Wasn't that what you were talking about-- immigrants being a threat to France's national cohesion?
Maybe you could take a moment and explain what you mean by national cohesion, since I'm not understanding you.
| 245 |
SidewaysQuark Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:37:49am |
re: #239 Obdicut
I said that it's hard, not that it's impossible. And yes, obviously, size/strength/weight difference matters.
You can also wind up killing someone by punching them really hard in the sternum, or just throwing a baseball at them. But it's rare, and bare-handed assaults shouldn't be assumed to be lethal by the people receiving them. That way lies a very dark libertarian shoot-em-up future.
What bothers me most about this whole ugly mess is the ugly reality that if a black man had gotten out his car and shot someone in the same manner, hardly anyone would be having this conversation.
| 246 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:38:25am |
re: #243 Targetpractice
Oh, I think the law protects Zimmerman, too. I'm not arguing about that, but about what should happen. What I'm saying is that if you accept the idea that a guy who is armed is allowed to shoot someone once he's down on the ground in a fight, then it's logical to assume, if you get into a fight with a gun owner, that if you get him down on the ground, he'll shoot you. So wouldn't that justify pre-emptive lethal force against the gun owner?
If the line of acceptability is what a panicking person would do or perceive as a threat, then we open the door pretty damn wide.
| 247 |
gwangung Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:38:50am |
Hm. I should also mention that there are other unbelievable aspects to Zimmerman's story. For example, he shot a guy in the chest, and supposedly Martin sat up after being shot, with a chest cavity full of blood, and spoke?
Maybe. But stretches my credulity.
| 248 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:41:57am |
re: #222 Obdicut
Really, again, it's really, really, really hard to beat someone to death with your fists. You will almost always break the shit out of your hands before you get anywhere close to lethal damage.
This is why boxers wear gloves; so that they can actually beat the shit out of each other with their fists. Back in the old bare-knuckled boxing days, I think only like one guy ever died during a fight. These days, multiple people die every year, because now we can punch each other in the head.
Obviously, there are ways that you can do more damage to someone when they're on the ground. But it's not reasonable to assume that someone beating you up is going to kill you. It's not. It's natural for a fearful person to panic and feel that way, but it's not actually a reasonable take on things.
I dunno, if we allow this sort of behavior from gun owners, maybe all gun owners should have to go through some sparring matches so they can understand just how much you can get beat up without being anywhere close to dying or being permanently damaged.
It is actually quite easy to kill a person with only your bare hands, your mistake is thinking of two school children flailing away at each other blindly. Now think of that child as a grown-up man able to put five times the force into his blows. People die from simple street fights every day in this country.
Even worse, what if that man has taken martial arts classes, there are at least five ways theoretically to kill an opponent with one well placed blow that I know of and I'm only a tyro, not a serious student.
I do take someone punching/kicking me as a possibly life threatening situation, and so should you.
| 249 |
Targetpractice Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:42:47am |
re: #246 Obdicut
Indeed, which is why I disagree with the law and believe it should be struck down. Not that I'm holding out hope, as Scott and the Florida legislature's decision to "review" the law seem to have been a publicity stunt, rather than a serious inquiry into whether the law might need reform or just to be done away with.
| 250 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:42:51am |
re: #247 gwangung
Hm. I should also mention that there are other unbelievable aspects to Zimmerman's story. For example, he shot a guy in the chest, and supposedly Martin sat up after being shot, with a chest cavity full of blood, and spoke?
Maybe. But stretches my credulity.
If he is lying about that then they'll certainly get him. From the autopsy they can tell who was where, what position they were in and how close they were when the shot was fired.
| 251 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:44:13am |
re: #248 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You
I'm sorry, I disagree with you. Someone punching me is not a life-threatening situation. I've been punched about a zillion times, both in the ring and out of the ring, and I have never been killed (or have I!?!?) or anywhere close to it.
People do die from street fights. The vast majority of people do not die from street fights.
What you are now saying is that any attack, even just punching, is potentially lethal. Do you think that if someone is punching you, lethal force in your defense is legitimate?
| 252 |
Gus Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:48:52am |
Boom!
Good luck @michellemalkin finishing 3rd grade.Your classmates wouldn't sound as stupid/uninformed on TV as you did today on FNC.— David Shuster (@DavidShuster) June 21, 2012
| 253 |
Interesting Times Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:49:00am |
re: #251 Obdicut
What you are now saying is that any attack, even just punching, is potentially lethal. Do you think that if someone is punching you, lethal force in your defense is legitimate?
Speaking in general terms, and not specifically of the Zimmerman case? If it's a smaller, weaker person being attacked by someone much stronger (esp. if the victim has legitimate fear of sexual assault), I'd say yes.
| 254 |
Elias Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:49:54am |
re: #244 Obdicut
I didn't miss them, I just haven't looked at it in detail. I can't pretend to talk about such a complicated issue without knowing it very well. Having heard the news isn't enough.
I didn't say immigrants were a threat to national cohesion. I said the lack of integration of immigrants is a threat to national cohesion. But I'm more talking of immigrants who are French citizens.
| 255 |
gwangung Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:50:09am |
re: #250 Killgore Trout
If he is lying about that then they'll certainly get him. From the autopsy they can tell who was where, what position they were in and how close they were when the shot was fired.
Hm, according to some news reports, Zimmerman's bullet passed through the right ventricle of the heart and the right lower lobe of his lung. Both lungs collapsed and the ME drained approx. 2300 ml (almost two-and-a-half quarts) of blood from the pleural cavity.
Hm.
| 256 |
celticdragon Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:51:02am |
re: #248 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You
It is actually quite easy to kill a person with only your bare hands, your mistake is thinking of two school children flailing away at each other blindly. Now think of that child as a grown-up man able to put five times the force into his blows. People die from simple street fights every day in this country.
Even worse, what if that man has taken martial arts classes, there are at least five ways theoretically to kill an opponent with one well placed blow that I know of and I'm only a tyro, not a serious student.
I do take someone punching/kicking me as a possibly life threatening situation, and so should you.
Overwhelmingly, cases that involve death from one punch or one blow involve the victim falling and sustaining severe head trauma upon a hard surface. This also sometimes happens with tazer cases, particularly one instance in Florida where a woman who was tazed fell and hit her head on pavement, uttered one sentence and lapsed into an irreversible coma.
| 257 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:51:22am |
re: #253 Interesting Times
Really? Even with how easy that would be to abuse? Smaller guy-- or woman-- provokes a bigger guy into a fight, then kills him and says "Well, he was bigger and was punching me."
| 258 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:51:43am |
re: #254 Elias
I didn't miss them, I haven't just looked at it properly. I can't pretend to talk about such a complicated issue with knowing it very well. Having heard the news isn't enough.
Okay, so how about an explanation of what you mean by "National cohesion"?
| 259 |
Elias Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:53:01am |
re: #258 Obdicut
I edited my comment. I have to go to work but I'd be happy to have a more comprehensive debate tomorrow.
| 260 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:56:31am |
re: #259 Elias
Well, the Roma, for example, are perennially un-intergrateable, given the history of their persecution in Europe. I'm sorry, are you just generally ignorant of the treatment of Roma by European countries over time, or just about the specific France deporting them issue?
And as to integration; how much do you think the problem lies with xenophobia in French society making it hard for people to integrate-- especially Muslims, Jews, Roma, North Africans, and other non-Europeans-- and how much do you think it's because of those groups holding onto their own cultures and mores?
| 261 |
Interesting Times Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:57:06am |
re: #257 Obdicut
Really? Even with how easily that would be to abuse? Smaller guy-- or woman-- provokes a bigger guy into a fight, then kills him and says "Well, he was bigger and was punching me."
I should add that in the hypothetical scenario I described, a proper investigation should always be done to determine circumstances that led up to the assault, to prevent the possibility of abuse (i.e. don't just take their word for it, as SYG laws seem to encourage). Also, a person who fears imminent sexual assault has no way of knowing whether or not their attacker is HIV positive. So yes, legitimate fear of sexual assault = legitimate fear for one's life.
| 262 |
lawhawk Thu, Jun 21, 2012 8:59:24am |
re: #251 Obdicut
Someone who was in a fight before and gets beat down might think that their life is in danger, especially if they were seriously injured in a previous incident. They might think that because they could suffer the same or worse injuries, that they could then have the right to use deadly force to protect themselves.
It not an unreasonable belief to think that someone getting beaten might think that their life is in jeopardy.
What would the reasonable person in the same situation think... that's the standard to consider.
And to bring it back to the Martin case, it could be seen as reasonable that Martin thought his own life was in danger by Zimmerman following him around, and that he was standing his ground against Zimmerman when Zimmerman shot him.
It's an indictment of a major failing with SYG (one of many).
| 263 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:02:38am |
re: #261 Interesting Times
But it's really, really hard to tell if someone instigated a fight, in the absence of witnesses. It's pretty easy to do-- even our current self-defense laws are often used, or attempted to be used, as covers for planned murders.
How often will you wind up, with that line of reasoning-- that any simple assault from a larger person against a smaller one-- with the prevention of crime, and how much will you be enabling it? I don't know the answer, but I'm very leery of saying that it's okay for people to kill each other when they're just being assaulted.
I don't think bringing up HIV+ status is a good line of reasoning either, because that can easily lead to the persecution of HIV+ people for attempted murder if they have sex with someone. Afterward, if the person claims that they didn't know that the HIV+ person was actually HIV+, they could claim-- by the logic that sex with an HIV+ person is potentially lethal-- that it was attempted murder, assault, or something of that nature.
I do cautiously support lethal force against sexual assault, but not for those reasons, but simply because lots of women are killed after sexual assault and it certainly counts as a grievous injury. But bringing disease status into it opens up a big can of worms.
| 264 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:03:32am |
Ugh. I should go be productive. Too damn hot though.
Anyway, I'm out.
| 265 |
lizardofid Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:07:19am |
re: #262 lawhawk
For me it always comes back to the fact that if Z had not followed TM, even when told by the dispatcher "they didn't need him to do that", none of this would have happened. Is there anything like "proximate cause" in a situation like this? To me, Z put a chain of event in motion, that precedes and should preclude any protection from a any SYG law. Is this way off base?
| 266 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:10:45am |
re: #251 Obdicut
I'm sorry, I disagree with you. Someone punching me is not a life-threatening situation. I've been punched about a zillion times, both in the ring and out of the ring, and I have never been killed (or have I!?!?) or anywhere close to it.
People do die from street fights. The vast majority of people do not die from street fights.
What you are now saying is that any attack, even just punching, is potentially lethal. Do you think that if someone is punching you, lethal force in your defense is legitimate?
It would depend on the circumstances obviously, if some friend and I had a disagreement that led to blows then obviously not, because I would not expect him to try to kill me.
However someone that I did not know following me and then accosting me physically at night? Yes I would probably consider the use of lethal force if it was available to me and I was losing the physical altercation. After all I would have no idea whatsoever of the other persons intentions or what they intended the outcome of their attack to be.
Or should I just allow them to beat me insensible and then trust this person that is totally unknown to me and who attacked me without provocation will walk away without doing me further harm once I'm helpless?
| 267 |
gwangung Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:13:23am |
re: #266 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You
It would depend on the circumstances obviously, if some friend and I had a disagreement that led to blows then obviously not, because I would not expect him to try to kill me.
However someone that I did not know following me and then accosting me physically at night? Yes I would probably consider the use of lethal force if it was available to me and I was losing the physical altercation. After all I would have no idea whatsoever of the other persons intentions or what they intended the outcome of their attack to be.
Or should I just allow them to beat me insensible and then trust this person that is totally unknown to me and who attacked me without provocation will walk away without doing me further harm once I'm helpless?
This is a false choice, you know. There are more than two alternatives.
| 268 |
Gus Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:15:48am |
re: #100 dragonfire1981
This could get interesting:
Hope they got a third party to double check and make sure they're not a group of Asians.
//
| 269 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:17:19am |
re: #267 gwangung
This is a false choice, you know. There are more than two alternatives.
Oh yes there could be thousands of possible narratives as to how someone would or could wind up facing the choice of whether to use lethal force or not.
But do tell me, how is the one that I suggested in my post in any way "false"?
| 270 |
Gus Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:17:33am |
Twitter go belly up for the moment? Getting a 502 (bad gateway) here. Maybe it's on my end.
| 271 |
Patricia Kayden Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:17:38am |
Rachel Maddow is fantastic, but why aren't others in the "liberal" mainstream media dissecting this farce?
Hope this backfires like the Clinton impeachment.
| 272 |
Mattand Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:18:01am |
re: #262 lawhawk
And to bring it back to the Martin case, it could be seen as reasonable that Martin thought his own life was in danger by Zimmerman following him around, and that he was standing his ground against Zimmerman when Zimmerman shot him.
It's an indictment of a major failing with SYG (one of many).
Thank you.
I wish one of the bleating goats on TV would bring this up.
| 273 |
CuriousLurker Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:18:46am |
re: #270 Gus
Twitter go belly up for the moment? Getting a 502 (bad gateway) here. Maybe it's on my end.
It's been down for me for about 10 minutes. @TweetSmarter says there've been problems all morning.
| 274 |
Gus Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:19:50am |
re: #273 CuriousLurker
It's been down for me for about 10 minutes. @TweetSmarter says there've been problems all morning.
Thanks!
For a minute there I thought maybe George Soros ordered it to be shut down.
//
| 275 |
CuriousLurker Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:21:21am |
re: #274 Gus
Thanks!
For a minute there I thought maybe George Soros ordered it to be shut down.
//
ZOMG, the #TwitterGulag!!11! It's oddly quiet in here without the little chirping noise Tweetdeck makes.
| 276 |
Targetpractice Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:21:40am |
re: #271 Patricia Kayden
Rachel Maddow is fantastic, but why aren't others in the "liberal" mainstream media dissecting this farce?
Hope this backfires like the Clinton impeachment.
Not even sure it'll go that far. There's already open talk about a "negotiated" end to this confrontation, namely Holder gives up a few documents, gives up a bit more information, and shows "signs of good faith," and the House will either put the whole thing on the back burner for the time being or just let it drop.
I don't get the impression that the GOP leadership, as badly outnumbered as it is, really wants this fight right now. It wanted to make Obama look bad, but the sort of knockdown, drag-out that the base is salivating for would bite the party as a whole in the ass once people began asking questions as to why this has been going on so long, why anybody thought it was a good idea to begin with, etc.
| 277 |
wrenchwench Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:23:55am |
re: #275 CuriousLurker
ZOMG, the #TwitterGulag!!11! It's oddly quiet in here without the little chirping noise Tweetdeck makes.
We're all in the Gulag now1!!
| 278 |
Gus Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:27:21am |
re: #275 CuriousLurker
ZOMG, the #TwitterGulag!!11! It's oddly quiet in here without the little chirping noise Tweetdeck makes.
Those poor suffering patriots being starved to death in the forced labor camps -- without heat or running water. This truly is an epic struggle for the human spirit! For as they suffer, we all suffer.
//
| 279 |
Eventual Carrion Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:28:19am |
re: #276 Targetpractice
Not even sure it'll go that far. There's already open talk about a "negotiated" end to this confrontation, namely Holder gives up a few documents, gives up a bit more information, and shows "signs of good faith," and the House will either put the whole thing on the back burner for the time being or just let it drop.
I don't get the impression that the GOP leadership, as badly outnumbered as it is, really wants this fight right now. It wanted to make Obama look bad, but the sort of knockdown, drag-out that the base is salivating for would bite the party as a whole in the ass once people began asking questions as to why this has been going on so long, why anybody thought it was a good idea to begin with, etc.
Yeah, they have done a pretty good job of not bringing up that this type of operation has been going on since the Bush admin. I brought that up to a guy last week that was going off saying Holder should be fired for this. I asked him why it was such a big hairy deal now and wasn't when Bush DOJ was doing it. He argued that it was started under Obama, I told him the name changed but the players and the method was put together under Bush and there were at least 2 operations under the Bush DOJ of the exact same nature. He had never heard that (he watches Fox gnus and listens to Rush). I swear, if we didn't have music interests in common I probably wouldn't talk to him at all.
| 280 |
CuriousLurker Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:28:58am |
re: #277 wrenchwench
We're all in the Gulag now1!!
It's the CJ + Kimberlin + Soros + Obama cabal. They've finally turned on their own. America is over—prepare to be transported to the FEMA camps and issued a dhimmi ID card!1! *runs to window to look for jack-booted brownshirts & black helicopters*
| 281 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:35:22am |
re: #280 CuriousLurker
It's the CJ + Kimberlin + Soros + Obama cabal. They've finally turned on their own. America is over—prepare to be transported to the FEMA camps and issued a dhimmi ID card!1! *runs to window to look for jack-booted brownshirts & black helicopters*
The whole "black helicopter" thing is just so 1990's, everyone knows that now the Fema death camp helicopters have adaptive phasic screens that render them completely invisible from underneath.
Fear the invisible helicopters of doom!
///Oh shit, I probably just started another rightwing meme... :o
| 282 |
Gus Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:37:00am |
re: #281 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You
The whole "black helicopter" thing is just so 1990's, everyone knows that now the Fema death camp helicopters have adaptive phasic screens that render them completely invisible from underneath.
Fear the invisible helicopters of doom!
///Oh shit, I probably just started another rightwing meme... :o
Drones!
We like to use the BLM/EPA Drones™ for the wingnuts. They're already set up for livestock surveillance.
//
| 283 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:37:38am |
re: #281 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You
How do you know it was a Fema death camp helicopter circling your farm?
"Because it was invisible!"
| 284 |
wrenchwench Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:39:52am |
re: #282 Gus
Drones!
We like to use the BLM/EPA Drones™ for the wingnuts. They're already set up for livestock surveillance.
//
RE: Drones:
In response to the establishment of a national 'kill list' and the expansion of the United States' predator drone program, the National Agency for Ethical Drone-Human Interactions has launched the Do Not Kill Registry. Adding your name to the registry will assist us in avoiding accidental casualties in our mission to make the world a safe place for Democracy and Free Enterprise. You can read more about the agency and our mission by clicking here.
| 285 |
CuriousLurker Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:41:46am |
re: #282 Gus
Oh crap, I forgot about the drones! Ayiiiii...
re: #283 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You
Invisible—*smacks forhead*—of course. Silly me!
Y'all notice that Charles is conspicuously absent, right? How much do you wanna bet as soon as he shows up, Twitter will start working again? This is just a test run...
| 286 |
Gus Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:42:00am |
re: #284 wrenchwench
RE: Drones:
I'll sign that as soon as Al Qaeda and the Taliban surrender. I have an idea. Maybe we can create a "do not kill registry" for them.
| 287 |
CuriousLurker Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:42:13am |
| 288 |
Gus Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:43:34am |
re: #287 CuriousLurker
Hahahahaha
Did you see this?
In response to the establishment of a national 'kill list' and the expansion of the United States' predator drone program, the National Agency for Ethical Drone-Human Interactions has launched the Do Not Kill Registry. Adding your name to the registry will assist us in avoiding accidental casualties in our mission to make the world a safe place for Democracy and Free Enterprise. You can read more about the agency and our mission by clicking here.
Free enterprise?
| 289 |
Gus Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:44:49am |
Ah. It's satire. Could be real though. I guess the first clue should have been that they don't mention King Glenn Greenwald I.
//
| 290 |
wrenchwench Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:45:15am |
re: #287 CuriousLurker
Hahahahaha
Via sister in law via Facebook, from whence all good thing come. Like this, the favorite Hearts of Palm of @MexicanMitt:
Image: 532767_10150899577196868_494694168_n.jpg
That's from my brother, but not the one married to the sister in law mentioned above. I gotta get it to Lalo, but... Twitter is down!!!
| 291 |
Gus Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:46:04am |
re: #290 wrenchwench
Via sister in law via Facebook, from whence all good thing come. Like this, the favorite Hearts of Palm of @MexicanMitt:
Image: 532767_10150899577196868_494694168_n.jpg
That's from my brother, but not the one married to the sister in law mentioned above. I gotta get it to Lalo, but... Twitter is down!!!
Blackhawk Twitter down!!11ty
| 293 |
Gus Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:51:23am |
False flag operation man! The Obama administration order Twitter shut down because of the SCOTUS decision on ACA man!
| 294 |
CuriousLurker Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:51:38am |
Um, Charles? Can you please turn Twitter back on? //
| 295 |
Gus Thu, Jun 21, 2012 9:53:04am |
re: #294 CuriousLurker
Um, Charles? Can you please turn Twitter back on? //
I knew it! Newman Charles.
//
| 296 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Thu, Jun 21, 2012 10:02:56am |
re: #288 Gus
Did you see this?
Free enterprise?
Lockheed Martin needs some source of quick revenue after the failure of the carrier "trap" tests on the F-35 mean that they have to redesign the naval version of the plane almost from scratch again....
Drones might work in the short term.
(BTW. For those interested the naval variant of the F-35 failed it's "trap wire" tests necessary for landing on a carrier because the catch hook on the plane had been moved too far forward (far further than any other carrier plane in history). The planes rear wheels depress the arresting cable and then the hook passes over it before it can spring back up into place. You would think that this might be easy to fix, just move the hook, right? But no, the hook has to be an integral part of the planes frame to absorb the 70,000+ pound shock of snagging the arresting wire over and over again for years. The entire frame, and the engine and component placement has to be completely re-jiggered from scratch. Another estimated two year delay in a program already over two years behind schedule and $77 billion over budget...sigh.)
| 297 |
Eventual Carrion Thu, Jun 21, 2012 10:08:35am |
| 298 |
ArchangelMichael Thu, Jun 21, 2012 11:03:22am |
re: #29 austin_blue
Bullets kill people.
Oh by the way, while I was producing a classical music festival the last two weeks, I happened upon Monty's Pawn Shop, where I purchased a 1939 Moisin-Nagant 7.62 X 54 rifle. It's with my gunsmith now, who says it's in excellent shape. I'm taking it out this weekend to see how it fires over iron sites. Always wanted one. With 80 rounds, it cost me $149.
I know, I know, Texas Democrats...
That was a steal. Almost as good as the M1 Garand I got for $95.
| 299 |
Obdicut Thu, Jun 21, 2012 11:07:06am |
re: #266 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You
There's more options than total passivity and lethal force, you know.
| 300 |
Interesting Times Thu, Jun 21, 2012 11:53:40am |
re: #263 Obdicut
I don't think bringing up HIV+ status is a good line of reasoning either, because that can easily lead to the persecution of HIV+ people for attempted murder if they have sex with someone.
I'm guessing you meant "prosecution". If so, it's already happened:
An Ontario man convicted of first-degree murder in the deaths of two of his sex partners through HIV transmission has been declared a dangerous offender.
...
Aziga was the first person to be charged and convicted of first-degree murder in Canada for spreading HIV. He was diagnosed with HIV in 1996 and had unprotected sex with 11 women without telling them he was HIV-positive.
| 301 |
Elias Thu, Jun 21, 2012 12:25:19pm |
Her tone is annoying, but gee, the Republicans are so ludicrous. This blog is making me dramatically change my view of American politics.
Could someone explain to me what holding the attorney general in contempt exactly means ?
| 302 |
Joanne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 1:19:16pm |
re: #203 Obdicut
I say two of those King Charles spaniels out on the street on my way to the gym. They were amazingly friendly. Cute breed.
They're cute as hell, super sweet, love their peeps and are totally fierce hunters. She's the best dog I've ever had.
| 303 |
Joanne Thu, Jun 21, 2012 1:27:22pm |
re: #211 sattv4u2
I used to have a sweet mini daschund who was 10 pounds (half of that in eyes alone) who turned into the Tasmanian devil when she felt threatened by one of the big dogs. One time was all it took, after that they were all best buds. But the look on the 85 pound pooch when this tiny girl went off was priceless. I wish I had a pic of that WTF was that? look.
Beware the foofy pooches at your own peril.
As to Zimmerman, who pursued whom?
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