Mitt Romney’s Sons: Dad’s a Prankster

But don’t prank him back or he’ll administer a beatdown
Weird • Views: 33,137
Youtube Video

OK, we already knew about Willard’s penchant for pretending to be a policeman, and his fondness for holding down gay kids while he cut their hair, but in this Conan O’Brien clip Romney’s sons shed new light on the pranks so beloved by their famous father.

For example, Mitt loves that one where he says, “This butter is spoiled, here, smell it,” and then as soon as you lean over to smell it he pushes the butter into your face. Or whipped cream, that’s also a hoot. Never gets tired of it. His kids fall for it every time.

Also see
On ‘Conan,’ Romney Sons Describe Dad the Prankster

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390 comments
1 Kragar  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:23:52pm

There is a fine line between prankster and dick.

2 Iwouldprefernotto  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:24:38pm

re: #1 Kragar

There is a fine line between prankster and dick.

Can't he be both?

3 Randall Gross  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:24:42pm

He sounds just like Biff in back to the future. Great. Biff for president.

4 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:25:59pm

Apparently Mitt is a self-replicating bot.

5 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:27:01pm

It must be hard, but kids should stay out of it when their parents run for office. I really don't think they ever do any good.

6 Kragar  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:27:32pm

re: #2 Iwouldprefernotto

Can't he be both?

There is a difference, let me turn to this instructional video to illustrate.

Youtube Video
7 Kragar  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:30:43pm

Its a little know fact, but the movie Super Troopers is based almost entirely off of anecdotes from Mitt Romney about the times he dressed up as a state trooper while in college.

True Story.

8 Kronocide  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:31:02pm

5 Stepford Sons hit the campaign trail.

9 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:31:13pm

re: #7 Kragar

Youtube Video
10 Kragar  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:31:58pm

re: #9 Obdicut

[Embedded content]

Youtube Video
11 bratwurst  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:33:17pm

Do you think they will eventually figure out that the more they make Mitt seem like a normal guy, the LESS he seems like a normal guy?

12 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:34:58pm

re: #11 bratwurst

Do you think they will eventually figure out that the more they make Mitt seem like a normal guy, the LESS he seems like a normal guy?

No. And the fun part is, the rabid wingnut base will eat this up. They'll be all like, "Hey, yeah, I love to do that too! Some people call us douchebags, but we're just being normal guys!"

13 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:35:01pm

re: #3 Randall Gross

He sounds just like Biff in back to the future. Great. Biff for president.

What are you looking at, butthead? Why don't you make like a tree and get outta here?

//

14 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:40:09pm

re: #5 Obdicut

It must be hard, but kids should stay out of it when their parents run for office. I really don't think they ever do any good.

Mitt wants to highlight his large, good-looking and successful family. Moreover, his sons are now grown men in their own right, and them getting involved is a very different story than a minor child being used in a campaign.

15 researchok  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:41:46pm

Usually, going after a candidate's family is not a good idea, be they children, siblings, etc

That said, they put themselves out there. They made themselves fair game.

16 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:42:11pm

re: #14 Dark_Falcon

Sure, it's a different story, but when has a kid's involvement ever helped their father? At best, it's "Well, his family can stand him", at worst it turns out this son did something or said something and now it's valid to talk about that because he's supposed to be an informative source for his father.

What with this, and Romney citing his wife as his source for working women's issues, it looks more like Romney is using his family than it's some sort of natural and spontaneous thing.

17 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:45:33pm

re: #15 researchok

I'm not going after the kids at all. If anything I feel slightly sorry for them.

But not too sorry, since they are from an ultra-rich family after all.

To me, this is interesting because of what it shows about Romney, not about his sons.

18 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:46:36pm

And ... if they didn't want people to react, maybe they shouldn't go on a TV show with an audience of millions.

19 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:48:33pm

re: #16 Obdicut

Sure, it's a different story, but when has a kid's involvement ever helped their father? At best, it's "Well, his family can stand him", at worst it turns out this son did something or said something and now it's valid to talk about that because he's supposed to be an informative source for his father.

What with this, and Romney citing his wife as his source for working women's issues, it looks more like Romney is using his family than it's some sort of natural and spontaneous thing.

Mitt Romney likes to show off his success at times, and his 5 sons are part of that success. It's not entirely a matter of political calculation, but as far as it is its like this: "My sons have some their own experience now and they help me connect to others who are younger than I. Also, by showing how well my children turned out, I prove my competence as a parent (which people will want to see in a president*)."

*: America has never elected a man with no children president in the post-WWII era.

20 nines09  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:48:51pm

Yeah, Mitt's a joker alright. Why he won't even say what he would really do as President. Ha. Ha. Ha. What a prankster. Ha. Ha. Ha.

21 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:51:51pm

re: #19 Dark_Falcon

It shows how completely out of touch Romney is, that he thinks these sons will help him connect to those younger than him.

It's kind of weird. It's like watching a dude who can't dance, but who knows all the technical moves, put his feet down. Romney may be a politician, but he's not at all a leader. He's so unmotivating. He really acts as though he's applying for a corporate position, one that's already basically in the bag. He doesn't talk to people as though they're voters, but employees he needs to put on a good public face for to keep up morale.

22 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:52:17pm

re: #20 Some Assembly Required, Batteries Not Included,

He's going to say to America, "Hey, this EPA smells a little funny, what do you think," and then when you lean in to check it out he'll smush it into your face and suddenly everything will be polluted and smoggy. Oh, how we'll laugh.

He has some great pranks planned for the Department of Education too.

23 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:52:36pm

NBC has Bruce Jenner as part of its broadcast team for the Olympic Trials tonight. Well, unlike his stepdaughters, at least he's famous for something other than being famous.

/Sorry, but given freetoken's posts I could not resist.

24 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:54:15pm

Pushing food into someone's face is very childish. I do not want someone like that in charge of anything. It reminds me of the bullies in school.

25 researchok  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:54:33pm

re: #17 Charles Johnson

All true.

The Bush daughters made a few appearances after their father was elected. They were asked about life in the WH, their parents, that kind of thing with no real political overtones. Both Laura and Barbara Bush did the same, as did Michelle Obama, etc (the only exception might be Hillary Clinton who did get political once during Bill's tenure in the Oval Office).

The Romney boys are clearly being used as props and no more than an election campaign tool/strategy. They are not small kids, they understand the process.

I'm not as kind as you- I believe they set themselves for criticism, much in the same way Billy Carter set himself up, albeit to a different end (self promotion).

26 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:54:56pm

re: #21 Obdicut

It shows how completely out of touch Romney is, that he thinks these sons will help him connect to those younger than him.

It's kind of weird. It's like watching a dude who can't dance, but who knows all the technical moves, put his feet down. Romney may be a politician, but he's not at all a leader. He's so unmotivating. He really acts as though he's applying for a corporate position, one that's already basically in the bag. He doesn't talk to people as though they're voters, but employees he needs to put on a good public face for to keep up morale.

Mitt is a highly skilled resource manager, and he knows how to put people in the right places for their skill sets, and how to develop those skills. But he has seldom really motivated with emotion, having relied on calculations of self-interest while in the corporate world.

27 Kragar  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:55:01pm

re: #22 Charles Johnson

He's going to say to America, "Hey, this EPA smells a little funny, what do you think," and then when you lean in to check it out he'll smush it into your face and suddenly everything will be polluted and smoggy. Oh, how we'll laugh.

He has some great pranks planned for the Department of Education too.

"One word... vouchers!"

Hilarity ensues.

28 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:55:12pm

re: #25 researchok

Billy Carter set the bar high in terms of misbehavior by a presidential relation.

29 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:55:18pm

re: #27 Kragar

"One word... vouchers!"

Hilarity ensues.

[rimshot.]

30 researchok  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:58:34pm

re: #28 Obdicut

Actually, this escapade by the Romney boys really irks me.

These aren't wholesome kids next door. They have been around politics their entire lives and they know more than most how to use the media to manipulate to serve their own ends.

31 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 5:59:33pm

re: #26 Dark_Falcon

Mitt is a highly skilled resource manager, and he knows how to put people in the right places for their skill sets, and how to develop those skills.

I have no idea if that's true or not. He's part of the GOP, which excels at dumb shit like putting Issa in charge of the House Oversight Committee, or Upton (a global warming denier) as head of the Energy committee. I really don't expect Romney would make any intelligent picks for his cabinet, they'd probably mostly be just touting the anti-science GOP party line.

Where do you get this idea of him being good at putting people in the right place?

But he has seldom really motivated with emotion, having relied on calculations of self-interest while in the corporate world.

I'm not talking about being motivated with emotion, I'm talking about the way he acts as though he's being hired to do a job rather than taking on a job that involves leadership. You once observed very acutely about Mitt's failures as a leader, describing him as less preferable than Obama. I realize that at the time you probably thought he wouldn't win the nomination, but it was a completely cogent point. Mitt Romney is not a leader.

32 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:00:05pm

re: #21 Obdicut

It shows how completely out of touch Romney is, that he thinks these sons will help him connect to those younger than him.

Connection kind of requires some level of effort by one party. You don't get to just have kids and connect to their generation through some kind of osmosis. Kids can point adults in the direction of a new way of thinking, like Obama's evolved position on gay marriage. What they don't do is automatically change people's minds or make them more likable by simply existing.

33 sagehen  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:01:34pm

re: #28 Obdicut

Billy Carter set the bar high in terms of misbehavior by a presidential relation.

And even so, Roger Clinton managed to clear that bar....

(um... for that matter, so did Neil Bush, but his family had better crisis management/PR teams and were able to keep it seeming sort of unconnected)

34 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:03:28pm

re: #26 Dark_Falcon

Mitt is a highly skilled resource manager, and he knows how to put people in the right places for their skill sets, and how to develop those skills. But he has seldom really motivated with emotion, having relied on calculations of self-interest while in the corporate world.

I don't question his skills when it comes to his self-interest.

If there is zero emotion, self-interest is the only place the skills get exercised.

35 sagehen  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:04:52pm

re: #30 researchok

Actually, this escapade by the Romney boys really irks me.

These aren't wholesome kids next door. They have been around politics their entire lives and they know more than most how to use the media to manipulate to serve their own ends.

Their dad already gave them $100 million, I think that's payment in advance for at least 5 years work. Each.

"What do you do for a living?"
"We're our parent's offspring."
"Hey cool, me too."
"But we didn't have have to dance for it, and ours pays better."

(no prizes for guessing who they're speaking to.)

36 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:05:55pm

Mitt to Amercia: Pull my finger!!!

37 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:07:18pm

re: #36 Amory Blaine

Mitt to Amercia: Pull my finger!!!

America to Mitt: Nahh, we'd rather give you the finger.

38 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:07:29pm

re: #15 researchok

Usually, going after a candidate's family is not a good idea, be they children, siblings, etc

That said, they put themselves out there. They made themselves fair game.

Agreed. It's all kind of silly to me anyways. Mitt puts his kids out there in an attempt to make a human connection with late night TV viewers. Moonbats froth about piratical jokes. I guess it's all fair game but none of it is actually important.

39 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:09:02pm

re: #31 Obdicut

Much of how Bain turned around failing companies was based on finding the people within the company who had the skills needed to effect the turnaround, putting them into the right places, and then rewarding them greatly if they succeeded.

40 freetoken  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:09:13pm

re: #38 Killgore Trout

... Moonbats froth about piratical jokes..

not oft used adjective.

41 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:09:21pm

re: #31 Obdicut

I have no idea if that's true or not. He's part of the GOP, which excels at dumb shit like putting Issa in charge of the House Oversight Committee, or Upton (a global warming denier) as head of the Energy committee. I really don't expect Romney would make any intelligent picks for his cabinet, they'd probably mostly be just touting the anti-science GOP party line.

Where do you get this idea of him being good at putting people in the right place?

I'm not talking about being motivated with emotion, I'm talking about the way he acts as though he's being hired to do a job rather than taking on a job that involves leadership. You once observed very acutely about Mitt's failures as a leader, describing him as less preferable than Obama. I realize that at the time you probably thought he wouldn't win the nomination, but it was a completely cogent point. Mitt Romney is not a leader.

Considering Romney to date, I expect his cabinet picks will be much like his campaign staff picks: Based primarily on how they sell to the base than whether they can do the job with any degree of skill, while lower level jobs will be done in the grand business tradition: Paybacks for campaign donations.

42 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:09:55pm

re: #36 Amory Blaine

Just imagine if he did that at a high level diplomatic meeting. It could have some very interesting consequences. /

43 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:10:12pm

re: #39 Dark_Falcon

Much of how Bain turned around failing companies was based on finding the people within the company who had the skills needed to effect the turnaround, putting them into the right places, and then rewarding them greatly if they succeeded.

Or if that fails, fire a whole bunch of people and pull up your tent stakes.

44 nines09  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:10:27pm

re: #22 Charles Johnson

He's going to say to America, "Hey, this EPA smells a little funny, what do you think," and then when you lean in to check it out he'll smush it into your face and suddenly everything will be polluted and smoggy. Oh, how we'll laugh.

He has some great pranks planned for the Department of Education too.

Clean water? We can't have everything handed to us.

45 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:11:50pm

re: #43 thedopefishlives

Or if that fails, fire a whole bunch of people and pull up your tent stakes.

Or gut the company, bury it in debt while charging ruinous "consulting fees," then bail out just before it ends up in bankruptcy court.

46 freetoken  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:12:20pm

re: #38 Killgore Trout

Since you're here... have you seen The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel?

It's playing at some art houses around the nation or in the bigger multiplexes.

Superb actors, good cinematography. Some critics pan it for not being original, and a few for the "orientalism" (a claim I don't take seriously.) However, my take was that it's a pretty good film overall.

47 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:12:25pm

re: #40 freetoken

not oft used adjective.

Fucking autokorrect!

48 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:12:34pm

re: #45 Targetpractice

Or gut the company, bury it in debt while charging ruinous "consulting fees," then bail out just before it ends up in bankruptcy court.

Kinda what I was going for, but I didn't know all those details.

49 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:13:09pm

Mitt's Funny
Image: 610x.jpg

50 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:13:13pm

re: #45 Targetpractice

Or gut the company, bury it in debt while charging ruinous "consulting fees," then bail out just before it ends up in bankruptcy court.

Consulting fees are a standard part of such takeovers. Mitt was a consultant before he was a venture capitalist.

51 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:14:31pm

re: #42 PhillyPretzel

Just imagine if he did that at a high level diplomatic meeting. It could have some very interesting consequences. /

We could finally put the George H. W. Bush vomiting incident to rest.

52 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:15:11pm

re: #46 freetoken

Since you're here... have you seen The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel?

It's playing at some art houses around the nation or in the bigger multiplexes.

Superb actors, good cinematography. Some critics pan it for not being original, and a few for the "orientalism" (a claim I don't take seriously.) However, my take was that it's a pretty good film overall.

No, I hadn't even heard of it although I recognize some of the actors. I'll keep an eye out for it.

53 engineer cat  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:15:57pm

grit

he ain't got it

54 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:16:10pm

Exactly which demographic are Mitt's sons supposed to shore up, obscenely wealthy frat boys, Mens Wearhouse aficionados?

55 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:16:38pm

re: #50 Dark_Falcon

Consulting fees are a standard part of such takeovers. Mitt was a consultant before he was a venture capitalist.

And the parts about gutting companies, forcing them into piling on debt, and then bailing on them either just before or just after they've gone into bankruptcy?

56 freetoken  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:17:04pm

re: #52 Killgore Trout

No, I hadn't even heard of it although I recognize some of the actors. I'll keep an eye out for it.

I think you might enjoy it. One of the few film not targeted to the teenage or 18-39 age groups. Being over 50 helps in appreciating the film.

Set in Jaipur, it has a definitely different feel than many Hollywood products these days.

57 boredtechindenver  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:18:41pm

re: #50 Dark_Falcon

Consulting fees are a standard part of such takeovers. Mitt was a consultant before he was a venture capitalist.

You spelled "vulture" wrong.

58 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:19:53pm

re: #55 Targetpractice

And the parts about gutting companies, forcing them into piling on debt, and then bailing on them either just before or just after they've gone into bankruptcy?

Don't forget the part where the existing pension fund was put up for collateral to get the loans. How that's legal I'll never understand.

59 Kragar  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:20:01pm

re: #57 boredtechindenver

You spelled "vulture" wrong.

Hagfish seems more apt.

60 freetoken  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:20:02pm

Speaking of British entertainment, another of Doctor Who's companions is down:

RIP Doctor Who Companion Caroline John (1940 – 2012)

61 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:20:24pm

re: #56 freetoken

I think you might enjoy it. One of the few film not targeted to the teenage or 18-39 age groups. Being over 50 helps in appreciating the film.

Set in Jaipur, it has a definitely different feel than many Hollywood products these days.

I'm under fifty but I dig Jaipur. Sounds interesting. I'm willing to watch anything other than superhero movies these days.

62 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:20:36pm

re: #58 goddamnedfrank

Don't forget the part where the existing pension fund was put up for collateral to get the loans. How that's legal I'll never understand.

It helps when other "trailblazers" have lobbied pet politicians into writings the laws to make it legal.

63 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:20:52pm

re: #55 Targetpractice

And the parts about gutting companies, forcing them into piling on debt, and then bailing on them either just before or just after they've gone into bankruptcy?

The debt was normally needed to fund the turnaround, which often required capital investment.

64 freetoken  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:21:24pm

re: #61 Killgore Trout

I'm under fifty but I dig Jaipur. Sounds interesting. I'm willing to watch anything other than superhero movies these days.

You'll then be pleased to know that there are no computer simulated scenes in TBEMH.

65 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:21:28pm

"Crushing my head? LOL!"
Image: 610x.jpg

66 engineer cat  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:24:59pm

dear mitt,

if you get to be president, please do not, repeat, do not apply to the united states the things you learned from running bain

thank you

67 freetoken  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:27:08pm

re: #66 engineer cat

Hmm... if President Mitt could apply the rules of Bain to the Republic... he could sell off those States which are underperforming, after stripping out all the best people and resources.

68 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:28:44pm

re: #67 freetoken

Hmm... if President Mitt could apply the rules of Bain to the Republic... he could sell off those States which are underperforming, after stripping out all the best people and resources.

So, like Massachusetts?

69 freetoken  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:28:51pm

Could have been an Onion story title:

‘God particle’ may have no use, admits physicist

70 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:31:44pm

re: #63 Dark_Falcon

The debt was normally needed to fund the turnaround, which often required capital investment.

Yes, I've heard about the "turnarounds."

71 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:32:30pm

re: #68 thedopefishlives

So, like Massachusetts?

More like the majority of the GOP strongholds, low-population states that cost a ton in services.

72 gwangung  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:33:22pm

re: #63 Dark_Falcon

The debt was normally needed to fund the turnaround, which often required capital investment.

So, basically what Keynesians and Democrats have been pushing for the country?

Of course, there also seems to have been a number of abnormal cases as well...

73 Patricia Kayden  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:36:35pm

I wonder what prank Romney will play on the American people should he win the election.

74 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:38:18pm

re: #72 gwangung

So, basically what Keynesians and Democrats have been pushing for the country?

Of course, there also seems to have been a number of abnormal cases as well...

Come now, you know better. Only private businesses can run themselves millions into debt and still be good. The country has to be debt-free, else China's gonna own us all!

75 engineer cat  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:38:30pm

re: #64 freetoken

You'll then be pleased to know that there are no computer simulated scenes in TBEMH.

i dunno what i did to this comment - my finger slipped and it went all pink fer some reason

oops

76 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:40:10pm

Pamela Geller bigot-fest now in progress:

Youtube Video
77 theheat  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:44:42pm

re: #76 Charles Johnson

Anyone else get a total Les Grossman vibe off Spencer?

78 Kragar  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:45:34pm

Oh great, they've reached the complete fraud selection of speakers.

79 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:45:47pm

Of course, if you rate Willard's business success by making money for his firm even as companies that were invested in crumbled and even the investors lost their shirts, then he definitely succeeded.

80 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:48:12pm

Spencer: "Allah is just Mohammed's sock puppet."

81 engineer cat  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:49:04pm

re: #39 Dark_Falcon

Much of how Bain turned around failing companies was based on finding the people within the company who had the skills needed to effect the turnaround, putting them into the right places, and then rewarding them greatly if they succeeded.

the flip side of this are the employees who didn't contribute to the profitability of the company, and also the decision as to whether it would ne more profitable to bain to try to make the company profitable or to liquidate it

i used the word "profitable" a lot since the point of bain was to make a profit for investors

in case anybody has missed it, making the u.s. "profitable" would be to utterly miss the point of what a government is for

i suggest to mitt that any lessons he might have learned as a parent, teacher, or a line manager interested in "growing" his direct reports, would be much more relevant

82 Kragar  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:49:57pm

re: #80 Charles Johnson

Spencer: "Allah is just Mohammed's sock puppet."

While everyone knows every Christian priest actually does speak for Jesus.

83 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:50:43pm

Walid Shoebat: "If there ARE ex-Islamophobes, I would like to hear their testimony."

84 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:51:55pm

I'm experiencing an attack of extreme irony.

85 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:53:13pm

re: #79 Targetpractice

Huh. interesting: Often-times, the very 'turnaround' that Bain performed was simply massive, debt-fueled expansion. So the companies still eventually went bankrupt after capital-driven investment. But because of the structure of the deals, Bain profited from that short-term profitability.

Stuff like this is one of the major inefficiencies in capitalism: Bain profited hugely by focusing on the short-term, and most investors likewise are motivated by short-term profit, not long-term, sustainable practices. This is why a corporate mindset for running the US is completely inappropriate and for Romney to approach it as if were is ridiculous.

If Romney were actually serious, then what he'd be saying is that the US needs someone in charge who would aggressively expand. Or, indeed, sell off the less profitable states. It's really ridiculous if you think about it for a second, but so many people (who last year were saying "Executive experience" until they passed out) are now talking about the importance of working in private business.

86 Kragar  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:53:33pm

re: #83 Charles Johnson

Walid Shoebat: "If there ARE ex-Islamophobes, I would like to hear their testimony."

If Shoebat was a terrorist, I'd like to hear why he was granted and retains U.S. citizenship.

87 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:54:59pm

I've never seen Walid Shoebat speak before. He's much crazier than I imagined.

88 engineer cat  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 6:56:22pm

some friends of mine were the heirs of the owners of a very profitable fertilizer company

the way they learned the business was dad sent em down to start off shoveling birdshit and work their way up

89 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:00:15pm

re: #85 Obdicut

It was noted to me the other day that guys like Willard, who claim that America can be run like a business or would benefit from men with "business experience," are capitalizing on people's ignorance of just how different a business is from our government. Even if you believe that Willard was personally responsible for those "successes" on Bain's books, you have to acknowledge that he did so without dealing with one or even two other CEOs second-guessing him, contradicting his orders, or even trying to have him thrown out because of a basic disagreement as to the direction of the company.

Or, in short, if government were as easy to run as a business is, according to guys like Willard, then Obama could have ordered Congress to pass universal health care, ordered it to spend trillions to stimulate the economy, and so forth.

90 freetoken  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:02:11pm

Shoebat is denying the existence of any racism in America?

A true wingnut.

91 Kragar  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:03:19pm

re: #90 freetoken

Shoebat is denying the existence of any racism in America?

A true wingnut.

Racism only exists so liberals cam blame things on conservatives.
/

92 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:07:03pm

re: #91 Kragar

Racism only exists so liberals cam blame things on conservatives.
/

Of course. If it weren't for liberals, racism would have died out years ago! After all, we know that it was really the North where all the racism was back in the day. Down South, everybody loved each other because folks knew their place.

93 freetoken  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:08:14pm

This is starting to sound like an episode of the 700 Club.

94 freetoken  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:09:33pm

I can't take it anymore... time for my walk.

95 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:12:50pm

re: #81 engineer cat

But I don't see that as a problem. A person does not have a right to their job. If I cease to provide value to my employer, then I would expect to be laid off/fired. Unwise to do things another way; Bain wasn't a charity, after all.

96 dragonfire1981  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:14:25pm

re: #87 Charles Johnson

I've never seen Walid Shoebat speak before. He's much crazier than I imagined.

For some reason I can't help thinking that's a stage name of some sort.

97 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:20:06pm

If you're going to go on stage you have to accept the criticism.

98 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:21:29pm

re: #97 Gus

If you're going to go on stage you have to accept the criticism.

Well. You don't have to accept the criticism. More like expect criticism.

99 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:23:24pm

re: #97 Gus

If you're going to go on stage you have to accept the criticism.

Do they really not accept it or are they just pretending to be "Shocked, Shocked!" by 'liberal incivility' in order to help along the 'in-the-tank-media' meme?

100 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:23:34pm

Conan's a hoot.

101 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:24:18pm

re: #95 Dark_Falcon

But I don't see that as a problem. A person does not have a right to their job. If I cease to provide value to my employer, then I would expect to be laid off/fired. Unwise to do things another way; Bain wasn't a charity, after all.

And who decides that? The company that's been employing you for years, or the investors who've stepped in and decided that, for half of what they're paying you, they could hire a guy fresh out of college who claims he knows how to do the job?

102 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:26:28pm

re: #99 Dark_Falcon

Do they really not accept it or are they just pretending to be "Shocked, Shocked!" by 'liberal incivility' in order to help along the 'in-the-tank-media' meme?

These guys? I doubt they would care one way or the other. If I were to look from the outside you know that people will be uncivil about even the most benign things. I used to use Ken Burns as an example.

103 engineer cat  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:26:45pm

re: #95 Dark_Falcon

But I don't see that as a problem. A person does not have a right to their job. If I cease to provide value to my employer, then I would expect to be laid off/fired. Unwise to do things another way; Bain wasn't a charity, after all.

i'm not criticizing the way he ran bain, i'm questioning it as a model for running the country

an

104 dragonath  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:28:05pm

If Donald Blake is Thor's alter-ego, is Romney really Loki in disguise?

105 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:28:23pm

re: #101 Targetpractice

And who decides that? The company that's been employing you for years, or the investors who've stepped in and decided that, for half of what they're paying you, they could hire a guy fresh out of college who claims he knows how to do the job?

He who pays the piper, calls the tune. To not let the investors decide if they want to decide would be the injustice.

106 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:29:51pm

Mitt is a weirdo. Only now does the term weirdo deserve a comeback.


And...I'm waiting for the Rick Warren's faith summit (required of all candidates as of 2008) to occur.

107 Eventual Carrion  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:30:56pm

re: #58 goddamnedfrank

Don't forget the part where the existing pension fund was put up for collateral to get the loans. How that's legal I'll never understand.

Just another fund. You know, like medicare and social security.

108 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:31:27pm

Pizza.

109 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:31:29pm

re: #89 Targetpractice

It was noted to me the other day that guys like Willard, who claim that America can be run like a business or would benefit from men with "business experience," are capitalizing on people's ignorance of just how different a business is from our government.

I'd settle for them acknowledging that the nominal purpose of running a business is to raise revenues, prosper and grow. The cognitive dissonance in conservative Republican rhetoric is just incredible. On the one hand they say they want to run government like a business, but it's a business that they appear to hate and want to destroy, or at least cripple. They're always talking about shrinking government, starving it, getting it "small enough to drown in a bathtub. Nobody with actual business experience talks about their own business like that. Depending on whether they actually believe this bullshit, the fact that individual Republicans can hold and express these completely antithetical thoughts simultaneously speaks to either a deep seated insanity or intrinsic dishonesty.

110 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:31:37pm

re: #106 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Mitt is a weirdo. Only now does the term weirdo deserve a comeback.

And...I'm waiting for the Rick Warren's faith summit (required of all candidates as of 2008) to occur.

So he's a 'weirdo', so bloody what?! I'm a 'weirdo', too!

111 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:37:48pm

re: #105 Dark_Falcon

He who pays the piper, calls the tune. To not let the investors decide if they want to decide would be the injustice.

And the investors, as Obdi noted, were focused on short-term gain, such that they "downsized" out all the experienced folks and replaced them with inexperienced newbies to "bring down costs," they threw everything that wasn't bolted down (including pensions) onto the table to secure loans for "modernization" and "renovations" the company couldn't capitalize on, and then gave themselves jobs in the company's hierarchy and drew salaries in addition to their advisory fees.

112 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:37:53pm

re: #106 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Mitt is a weirdo. Only now does the term weirdo deserve a comeback.

And...I'm waiting for the Rick Warren's faith summit (required of all candidates as of 2008) to occur.

Strange but true. So it really has become a "required pilgrimage?" Sort of like this big box huckster is pop-America's version of the pope or the latest Billy Graham. Beholden.

113 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:43:14pm

re: #107 RayFerd

Just another fund. You know, like medicare and social security.

Paid into in part by employees, for the express purpose of funding their retirement. The part paid into by the employer is part of the employee's compensation. I understand that funds must be invested and that there's a nominal kind of risk associated with that. What I don't understand is how a pension fund can be allowed to serve two masters with conflicting interests, how the employer can leverage and put at risk part of their employees' contractual compensation for the exact opposite of an investment, debt.

I don't understand how that's legal, especially when the state and government are the one's left honoring the pension obligations when the business fails and can't repay the loans it used the fund to collateralize. It seems obvious to me that this practice should be illegal for one simple reason, it socializes all risk while privatizing all potential profit. Bain used the loans to pay itself and left the state governments holding the bag. From Bain's perspective there was zero risk associated with the transaction, they couldn't possibly lose because they were somehow allowed to bet with taxpayer backed assets.

This is so blatantly, obviously, intrinsically unethical that I have not trouble at all understanding why Romney did it.

114 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:43:55pm

Image: hot.jpg

115 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:44:32pm

re: #111 Targetpractice

And the investors, as Obdi noted, were focused on short-term gain, such that they "downsized" out all the experienced folks and replaced them with inexperienced newbies to "bring down costs," they threw everything that wasn't bolted down (including pensions) onto the table to secure loans for "modernization" and "renovations" the company couldn't capitalize on, and then gave themselves jobs in the company's hierarchy and drew salaries in addition to their advisory fees.

That happened less often than those modernizations paying off and the company returning to profitability. "Turn and Burn" doesn't work for very long, before people catch wise and become hostile to you. That was not Bain's central strategy, "turnaround" was.

116 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:46:15pm

re: #110 Dark_Falcon

So he's a 'weirdo', so bloody what?! I'm a 'weirdo', too!

Ya. But I don't want a weirdo making decisions for the country i live in. No offense to weirdos.

Ha! Bring back weirdo!!

117 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:46:32pm

re: #115 Dark_Falcon

And turnaround often involved cutting labor costs by shipping American jobs overseas to places that have weaker-than-even-our-anemic unions, like Communist China.

Which is what makes Mitt's statement about standing up to China pretty ridiculous.

118 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:46:55pm

re: #115 Dark_Falcon

That happened less often than those modernizations paying off and the company returning to profitability. "Turn and Burn" doesn't work for very long, before people catch wise and become hostile to you. That was not Bain's central strategy, "turnaround" was.

It helps when the taxpayer is covering part of the bill.

119 Kragar  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:48:32pm

Why is Mitt Romney's time at Bain Capital such a target?

“During the nearly 15 years that Romney was actively involved in running Bain, a private equity firm that he founded, it owned companies that were pioneers in the practice of shipping work from the United States to overseas call centers and factories making computer components, according to filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission,” the Post reported. “While Bain was not the largest player in the outsourcing field, the private equity firm was involved early on, at a time when the departure of jobs from the United States was beginning to accelerate and new companies were emerging as handmaidens to this outflow of employment.”

120 austin_blue  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:50:13pm

re: #115 Dark_Falcon

That happened less often than those modernizations paying off and the company returning to profitability. "Turn and Burn" doesn't work for very long, before people catch wise and become hostile to you. That was not Bain's central strategy, "turnaround" was.

Well, umm, ahem:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

121 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:50:20pm

re: #117 Obdicut

And turnaround often involved cutting labor costs by shipping American jobs overseas to places that have weaker-than-even-our-anemic unions, like Communist China.

Which is what makes Mitt's statement about standing up to China pretty ridiculous.

A counter could be made on a "that was then, this is now" basis: That being that when at Bain Mitt Romney was duty-bound to provide high return on shareholder investment (including outsourcing), whereas he'd behave differently as president, as he'd be answering to a different paymaster.

122 Kragar  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:51:50pm

re: #121 Dark_Falcon

whereas he'd behave differently as president, as he'd be answering to a different paymaster.

You mean the lobbyists? Pretty sure they're the same guys.

123 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:52:32pm

re: #120 austin_blue

Well, umm, ahem:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Enter — ta-da! — private equity. In 2002, Goldman Sachs, along with two private equity firms, TGP and ... hmmm ... Bain Capital, teamed up to buy Burger King. This is exactly the kind of situation private equity firms like to trumpet: taking over a downtrodden company and nursing it back to health. And to get them their due, Burger King’s new owners did some good, stabilizing both the company and the franchisees, many of whom were in worse shape than Burger King itself.

Bain did not own "Burger King until 2002, by which time Mitt Romney had left the firm. He therefore cannot have its time under Bain's control counted against him.

124 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:53:10pm

re: #121 Dark_Falcon

A counter could be made on a "that was then, this is now" basis: That being that when at Bain Mitt Romney was duty-bound to provide high return on shareholder investment (including outsourcing),

Sure. Romney is an employee, not a leader. He follows orders, and this year, thanks to Citizens United, the paymaster is the deep-pocketed billionares and the corporations. That's who would be his paymaster.

Oh, and companies aren't duty-bound to provide high return on investment. If a company wants to put in their charter that they exist to profit second, and make a good product first, they're free to do that. Only ethical investors like that sort of stuff, and most investors are unethical, but there are companies like that. Romney didn't choose to work for one of those companies.

125 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:54:45pm

re: #121 Dark_Falcon

A counter could be made on a "that was then, this is now" basis: That being that when at Bain Mitt Romney was duty-bound to provide high return on shareholder investment (including outsourcing), whereas he'd behave differently as president, as he'd be answering to a different paymaster.

And tell me, Dark, how much success you think he's going to have when anything he wants to do has to go through Congress? You noted above that part of those turnarounds was companies taking on debt in order to renovate and expand. How you think that's gonna sell to a Congress that wants entire agencies and departments of the government shut down permanently?

126 austin_blue  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 7:59:12pm

re: #123 Dark_Falcon

Bain did not own "Burger King until 2002, by which time Mitt Romney had left the firm. He therefore cannot have its time under Bain's control counted against him.

Why not? Bain is doing what it always did. Make money. Enhance Shareholder Value.

Their shareholders and partners.

127 Mocking Jay  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:00:54pm

re: #126 austin_blue

Why not? Bain is doing what it always did. Make money. Enhance Shareholder Value.

Their shareholders and partners.

Shoving the laid-off employees faces in the American Cream, as it were.

128 Mich-again  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:08:43pm

Maybe Mitt will appoint Ashton Kutcher to Secretary of Pranks.

129 austin_blue  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:10:38pm

This thread has become, like the Tea Party, Too Damn Quiet.

Anybody see Spain-France today?

Any opinions on England-Italy tomorrow?

130 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:11:27pm

re: #123 Dark_Falcon

Bain did not own "Burger King until 2002, by which time Mitt Romney had left the firm. He therefore cannot have its time under Bain's control counted against him.

Mitt makes his "salary" off of Bain. There is no separation. Own it!

131 BongCrodny  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:14:22pm

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the next President of the United States: Mitt "Pull My Finger" Romney.

132 sagehen  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:14:25pm

re: #124 Obdicut

Sure. Romney is an employee, not a leader. He follows orders, and this year, thanks to Citizens United, the paymaster is the deep-pocketed billionares and the corporations. That's who would be his paymaster.

Oh, and companies aren't duty-bound to provide high return on investment. If a company wants to put in their charter that they exist to profit second, and make a good product first, they're free to do that. Only ethical investors like that sort of stuff, and most investors are unethical, but there are companies like that. Romney didn't choose to work for one of those companies.

One of my favorite ethics clauses in a company charter -- at Ben & Jerry's, the incorporation papers specify that the highest-paid employee at the company (presumably the CEO) shall be compensated at a rate not to exceed 25 times the lowest-paid employee's salary.

There are no minimum-wage employees there. Also no theft, and (surprise surprise) very little turnover.

133 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:14:28pm

re: #127 It's a cookbook!

Shoving the laid-off employees faces in the American Cream,butter as it were.

FTFY.

134 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:15:20pm

re: #129 austin_blue

I see London, I see France....
Tee Hee

135 austin_blue  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:15:38pm

re: #133 Dancing along the light of day

FTFY.

Hey, Flo! Hope you are well.

136 Mich-again  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:17:23pm

Who is more plastic? The King or Mitt?

137 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:18:15pm

re: #132 sagehen

the top clause is no longer operational. Neither Ben nor Jerry runs the company now, its owned by Unilever, who CEO makes far more than 25 times what the guy who coops the ice cream makes.

138 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:21:04pm

re: #135 austin_blue

Very well! 2nd Sisters kid is headed to UT Austin this fall. You are well?

139 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:21:20pm

re: #136 Mich-again

Who is more plastic? The King or Mitt?

Nancy Pelosi is more plastic than either of them.

No, that wasn't nice, but neither was what Mich did. One good diss deserves another.

140 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:23:49pm

re: #137 Dark_Falcon

the top clause is no longer operational. Neither Ben nor Jerry runs the company now, its owned by Unilever, who CEO makes far more than 25 times what the guy who coops the ice cream makes.

Yep, they pulled that clause back in '95, when Ben Cohen stepped down as CEO. Probably because attracting a new CEO meant offering a far larger salary than $150,000/yr.

141 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:23:54pm

re: #139 Dark_Falcon

Do you want to maybe engage with the substantial part of the discussion-- Romney's record of shipping jobs overseas, his lack of leadership, and the question of who his paymaster would be were he to be elected president?

142 Interesting Times  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:25:31pm
143 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:25:46pm

re: #141 Obdicut

Do you want to maybe engage with the substantial part of the discussion-- Romney's record of shipping jobs overseas, his lack of leadership, and the question of who his paymaster would be were he to be elected president?

Nope, the barb throwing is more fun.

144 allegro  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:26:19pm

re: #141 Obdicut

Do you want to maybe engage with the substantial part of the discussion-- Romney's record of shipping jobs overseas, his lack of leadership, and the question of who his paymaster would be were he to be elected president?

He seems to be too busy practicing ever more extreme contortions to defend the indefensible so he can justified his vote for the Republican party.

145 austin_blue  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:27:25pm

re: #138 Dancing along the light of day

Very well! 2nd Sisters kid is headed to UT Austin this fall. You are well?

You betcha! We'll probably have 5 or 6 pieces from our Music Festival that will be hitting NPR's Performance Today in the next couple of months. The Roch variations on Paganini was exquisite. Michael Gurt is just a monster on the pianny.

Is your niece/nephew a grad student or a little head full of mush? This is an easy town for an undergrad to lose focus!

146 sagehen  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:27:43pm

re: #141 Obdicut

Do you want to maybe engage with the substantial part of the discussion-- Romney's record of shipping jobs overseas, his lack of leadership, and the question of who his paymaster would be were he to be elected president?

Rolling Stone has already compiled that list for your convenience.

147 Interesting Times  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:29:26pm

re: #143 Dark_Falcon

Nope, the barb throwing is more fun.

Okay. Dodge this:

148 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:29:28pm

re: #143 Dark_Falcon

Nope, the barb throwing is more fun.

Could it also be because you're unable to really mount a successful defense of Romney, having once quite honestly said Obama was preferable to him, but find yourself unable to actually maintain that honest position now that Romney is the nominee?

I'm genuinely curious. You previously said Obama was better than Romney. Now you appear to have flipped, but when pressed, can't actually defend Romney or even pretend to be excited about him as a leader.

149 jaunte  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:29:34pm

re: #136 Mich-again

Image: Mitt-Romney-plastic.jpg

150 CriticalDragon1177  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:34:43pm

Charles Johnson,

If only it would turn out his being a prankster was the worst thing about him. I'm more worried about what Romney's policies as president would be at this point.

151 Mich-again  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:36:03pm

re: #139 Dark_Falcon

Nancy Pelosi is more plastic than either of them.

I think she looks more like a wax model than plastic.

152 bratwurst  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:36:13pm

re: #129 austin_blue

Any opinions on England-Italy tomorrow?

Eh, I think we are destined for a Germany-Spain rematch from 4 years ago in the final a week from tomorrow. Today was nothing great, but overall a pretty impressive level of football going on.

153 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:37:37pm

re: #145 austin_blue

They're undergrads, but very focused & hardworking!

154 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:38:00pm

re: #147 Interesting Times

The matter of the Food Stamps isn't what you think:

The Senate on Thursday completed a five-year, half-trillion-dollar farm bill that cuts farm subsidies and land conservation spending by about $2 billion a year but largely protects sugar growers and some 46 million food stamp beneficiaries.

The 64-35 vote for passage defied political odds. Many inside and outside of Congress had predicted that legislation so expensive and so complicated would have little chance of advancing in an election year.

Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell called it "one of the finest moments in the Senate in recent times in terms of how you pass a bill."

The bipartisanship seen in the Senate may be less evident in the House, where conservatives are certain to resist the bill's costs, particularly for food stamps. Food stamp spending has doubled in the past five years, and beneficiaries have grown from by about 20 million to 46 million. The program's budget is now about $80 billion a year, comprising 80 percent of the spending in the farm bill.

Farm bills traditionally have been bipartisan efforts, and leaders of the Senate Agriculture, Nutrition and Forestry Committee leaders made a point of showing how their bill would bring down the deficit.

While overall spending on programs covered by the bill has climbed because more people are receiving food stamps, the committee head, Sen. Debbie Stabenow, D-Mich., and the top Republican, Sen. Pat Roberts of Kansas, said the bill would save $23 billion over the next 10 years compared with spending under the current farm bill.

That comes from replacing four farm commodity subsidy programs with one, consolidating 23 conservation programs into 13, and ending several sources of abuse in food stamps. That program is called the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, or SNAP.

The House may try for cuts, but they'll end up walking those back to get Senate passage.

155 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:39:11pm

re: #143 Dark_Falcon

Nope, the barb throwing is more fun.

Again the glib, superficial ease with which you avoid dealing with real issues, earnest comments and dialog illustrates why it's become impossible to take you seriously anymore.

156 austin_blue  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:40:04pm

re: #152 bratwurst

Eh, I think we are destined for a Germany-Spain rematch from 4 years ago in the final a week from tomorrow. Today was nothing great, but overall a pretty impressive level of football going on.

It's all up to the English midfielders tomorrow. If they can't control the center they are dead. The only real question is whether Italy will play that maniac Balotelli.

157 CriticalDragon1177  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:41:05pm

re: #83 Charles Johnson

Walid Shoebat: "If there ARE ex-Islamophobes, I would like to hear their testimony."

Charles Johnson,

I'd recommend you talk to him about being an ex Islamophobe, except that I don't think that he'd believe you, in addition to the fact that Shoebat's a liar so you couldn't trust him anyway. We could both do it, because I was once a supporter of the "counter jihad" as well. Off course I doubt it would do any good. Shoebat would probably even despise rational critics of Islam who are not bigots, including genuine ex Muslims, many of which would tell him to his face that he's a hate monger, and they'd be correct.

158 Mich-again  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:42:00pm

Neocon Mitt wants to open up immigration for more foreign scientists and engineers while Tea Party Mitt says we should dumb down science education for our own kids.

159 austin_blue  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:42:53pm

re: #155 goddamnedfrank

Again the glib, superficial ease with which you avoid dealing with real issues, earnest comments and dialog illustrates why it's become impossible to take you seriously anymore.

Hey, DF is a youngling. Cut him some slack. Not everyone here thinks Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy. And some of us (waves hand) can be kind of overbearing sometimes.

160 CriticalDragon1177  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:45:23pm

re: #76 Charles Johnson

I know former Muslims whose despise people like Geller, because of their bigotry. She probably would deny that such people even exist.

161 CriticalDragon1177  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:47:30pm

re: #157 CriticalDragon1177

Sorry I accidentally made my name a linked to Gmail in that comment.

162 bratwurst  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:48:21pm

re: #156 austin_blue

It's all up to the English midfielders tomorrow. If they can't control the center they are dead. The only real question is whether Italy will play that maniac Balotelli.

I hate to admit it, but England REALLY impressed me after going down in that Sweden game. I don't think they are on the same level as Germany or Spain, but...they have something going on.

163 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:48:23pm

re: #155 goddamnedfrank

Again the glib, superficial ease with which you avoid dealing with real issues, earnest comments and dialog illustrates why it's become impossible to take you seriously anymore.

All the 'earnest' seems to be these days is a gang tackle, and I don't enjoy those. I'm often under a great deal of stress at work and I need to relax afterwards. If that means being glib, then it does. I'm just one guy and ranged against 6-7 people I can't possibly muster the same research. If I kept trying to be earnest, I'd just keep getting clobbered till I got sick of it and flounced. So I've decided to be glib at times and a bit lighter in my actions, and I find it is less stressful.

164 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:49:11pm

re: #159 austin_blue

Hey, DF is a youngling. Cut him some slack. Not everyone here thinks Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy. And some of us (waves hand) can be kind of overbearing sometimes.

Thanks, but I am 34. I'm not really all that young anymore.

165 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:50:05pm

re: #160 CriticalDragon1177

I know former Muslims whose despise people like Geller, because of their bigotry. She probably would deny that such people even exist.

I think this falls under the category of "Just because I became a Methodist does not mean I lost my damn mind."

166 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:53:56pm

re: #160 CriticalDragon1177

I know former Muslims whose despise people like Geller, because of their bigotry. She probably would deny that such people even exist.

In her mind, all the 'good' former Muslims support her. Anyone else is either a stooge, a dupe, or "still afflicted with a sharia-based mentality".

Note: To my knowledge Pam Geller has never spoken the words in quotation marks. I mean them as a representation of her probable thought process, not as an attempt to create a fake quote.

167 CriticalDragon1177  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:56:08pm

re: #166 Dark_Falcon

That does sound kind of like her through.

168 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:56:26pm

re: #164 Dark_Falcon

Thanks, but I am 34. I'm not really all that young anymore.

Hee Hee, you're not an old man, either.
*smooch*

169 austin_blue  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:57:16pm

re: #153 Dancing along the light of day

They're undergrads, but very focused & hardworking!

Well, when they get down here, give me a shout. I'll buy them breakfast and tell them what is safe and what's not, although this town has a ridiculously low crime rate for a city its size.

170 freetoken  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:58:16pm

I agree, in part, with Douthat:


NYT columnist Ross Douthat on America's religious crisis

171 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:58:42pm

re: #167 CriticalDragon1177

That does sound kind of like her through.

I was trying to use her mindset and word choices when constructing the section. Glad to see I got close to what I was aiming for.

172 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:59:01pm

re: #169 austin_blue

I'll shout, when I come to visit & see the bats again!
Off to dance to some tunes for a bit.

173 austin_blue  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:59:13pm

re: #164 Dark_Falcon

Thanks, but I am 34. I'm not really all that young anymore.

I got 22 years on you. Thirty four is youngling to me!

174 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:59:49pm

Oh, this is awesome.

[Link: www.rollingstone.com...]

Current Donations Melaleuca and three Asian subsidiaries gave a combined $1 million to Romney's Super PAC. VanderSloot also serves as a national finance co-chair of the Romney campaign.

Seriously? We've got Asian subsidiaries of multinational corporations funding the GOP contender for president, and the base-- the supposedly hyperpatriotic, rah-rah US, foreigners are inferior base-- have no problem with this?

It really is starting to feel like the GOP is far less committed to the United States than they are to Ayn Rand capitalism.

175 Big Joe  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 8:59:59pm

When I was 34 I was still a kid.

176 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:00:55pm

re: #170 freetoken

I agree, in part, with Douthat:

NYT columnist Ross Douthat on America's religious crisis

Even as hostile as Maher can be to religion, Douthat still went on his show and held his own. He's not a coward, to be sure.

177 allegro  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:01:01pm

re: #170 freetoken

With what do you agree?

178 austin_blue  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:01:13pm

re: #172 Dancing along the light of day

I'll shout, when I come to visit & see the bats again!

Good. Some of the best food in town is where you least expect it. She Who Must Be Obeyed and I live about a mile west of the bat bridge. Easy walk.

179 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:02:40pm

re: #178 austin_blue

Good. Some of the best food in town is where you least expect it. She Who Must Be Obeyed and I live about a mile west of the bat bridge. Easy walk.

What kind of bats? And I do hope Austin is working on plans to protect them from that White Nose fungus that's been killing bats.

180 austin_blue  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:05:08pm

re: #179 Dark_Falcon

What kind of bats? And I do hope Austin is working on plans to protect them from that White Nose fungus that's been killing bats.

Mexican free tailed. Largest urban bat colony in the US.

[Link: images.search.yahoo.com...]

181 freetoken  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:06:41pm

re: #177 allegro

With what do you agree?

That a great deal of the current "crises" in American society, at least those about which we argue and which consumes our time, have at their base a religious element.

We are in a very slow, very ragged, non-linear process of non-Christianization. Douthat laments the loss of the institutional Church; I believe there is a more fundamental contest going on than institutional religion vs. inner religious impulses (e.g., Oprah.)

182 austin_blue  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:06:46pm

re: #180 austin_blue

Mexican free tailed. Largest urban bat colony in the US.

[Link: images.search.yahoo.com...]

Oh, and they are all illegal aliens.

;-)

183 wheat-dogg  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:09:54pm

re: #181 freetoken

As I recall, Douthat says the loss of the institutional church is a bad thing. Is that right, or is my memory failing me? I read it several days ago.

184 freetoken  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:10:51pm

re: #183 wheatdogg

Basically correct.

That MPR link has an audio of Douthat being interviewed by an NRP talking head (who frankly I can't stand.)

185 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:12:37pm

re: #182 austin_blue

Oh, and they are all illegal aliens.

;-)

And the sight of them leaving to feed of an evening is AWESOME!
It's a black river of animals for 30-60 minutes.
As I understand it, the bridge was built, and by happenstance, is a perfect place for the bats.

186 wheat-dogg  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:13:32pm

What's your take on that? Douthat seems to be yearning for the good old days when the RCC ran the whole show. I've got some problems with his reasoning, but have to admit the lack of a national hierarchy in some Protestant churches in the USA tends to foster some pretty weird offshoots of Xianity.

187 austin_blue  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:13:46pm

re: #181 freetoken

That a great deal of the current "crises" in American society, at least those about which we argue and which consumes our time, have at their base a religious element.

We are in a very slow, very ragged, non-linear process of non-Christianization. Douthat laments the loss of the institutional Church; I believe there is a more fundamental contest going on than institutional religion vs. inner religious impulses (e.g., Oprah.)

Well, if people in power positions weren't fucking children, it might help. And this is not just a Catholic Priest problem. Numerous Protestant "youth ministers" have been busted in the last few years in Austin for similar transgressions.

As Clyde Darrow said when asked why he was a bank robber, "That's where the money is".

I got out of organized religion when I was sixteen. Glad I did. It's a con, AFAIC.

188 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:14:56pm

re: #181 freetoken

That a great deal of the current "crises" in American society, at least those about which we argue and which consumes our time, have at their base a religious element.

We are in a very slow, very ragged, non-linear process of non-Christianization. Douthat laments the loss of the institutional Church; I believe there is a more fundamental contest going on than institutional religion vs. inner religious impulses (e.g., Oprah.)

I, like Douthat, would see that process reversed. Religion is needed, as people need a code to live by and its far better to for the most part hand them one than to try to get them to develop their own. The latter is far too likely to fail or lead to a larger than normal number of amoral assholes.

189 austin_blue  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:15:43pm

re: #185 Dancing along the light of day

And the sight of them leaving to feed of an evening is AWESOME!
It's a black river of animals for 30-60 minutes.
As I understand it, the bridge was built, and by happenstance, is a perfect place for the bats.

Yup. The expansion joints under the bridge are Goldilocks homes for the bats. Not too wide, not too skinny, just right.

190 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:17:40pm

re: #188 Dark_Falcon

I, like Douthat, would see that process reversed. Religion is needed, as people need a code to live by and its far better to for the most part hand them one than to try to get them to develop their own. The latter is far too likely to fail or lead to a larger than normal number of amoral assholes.

Religion isn't a code to live by. Ethics are a code to live by. Religions often incorporated ethics, back in the days before the Enlightenment. We're a post-Enlightenment society. We can just use ethics, we don't need to shackle it to religion.

191 wheat-dogg  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:18:19pm

re: #188 Dark_Falcon

I, like Douthat, would see that process reversed. Religion is needed, as people need a code to live by and its far better to for the most part hand them one than to try to get them to develop their own. The latter is far too likely to fail or lead to a larger than normal number of amoral assholes.

Um, we could argue that there are still amoral assholes who claim to be religious. Having a "religion" does not guarantee moral behavior.

192 freetoken  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:18:42pm

re: #186 wheatdogg

Douthat seems to be yearning for the good old days ...

That's why Douthat is a "conservative" - he really does long for the good ol' days.

There is more going on here than can be conveniently put into a single post.

For example, Douthat discusses the problem of the loss of "community" and the rise of individualism. This puts him at odds with the glibertarians, be we already knew that Douthat was an old fashion (religious) "conservative".

My point is that there are real, even if very slow, changes in the worldview of our collective citizenry, and that those changes are away from the patristic theism of our ancestors. Not only are we (through accumulated wealth) becoming more individualistic, but we are also seeking new thrills, new ideas, to explore. The old ways don't work here, and that is why American fundamentalist Christianity is fighting so hard - they see their influence at great risk and are very afraid.

193 austin_blue  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:19:10pm

re: #188 Dark_Falcon

I, like Douthat, would see that process reversed. Religion is needed, as people need a code to live by and its far better to for the most part hand them one than to try to get them to develop their own. The latter is far too likely to fail or lead to a larger than normal number of amoral assholes.

"Treat people as you yourself would like to be treated" doesn't need a religious hierarchy to be practiced. The amoral assholes will always be there. Let's face it, they're amoral assholes.

194 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:23:57pm

re: #190 Obdicut

Religion isn't a code to live by. Ethics are a code to live by. Religions often incorporated ethics, back in the days before the Enlightenment. We're a post-Enlightenment society. We can just use ethics, we don't need to shackle it to religion.

Ethics relies too much on reason, and thus on thought. Too many people don't or won't think, and instant gratification just pushes that even higher. Religion as a source of ethics addds an emotional basis behind the ethics, giving them greater strength and not needing as much though to adopt.

There's more I want to say, but I'm starting to fade, so I'm going to sign off instead. Good Night, all.

195 wheat-dogg  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:25:36pm

re: #192 freetoken

Agreed. Douthat and the fundies are witnessing the end of their relevance, so predictably they are trying to convince us that Civilization as We Know It will soon end.

Yet, there is Europe, which seems quite civilized despite growing secularism.

196 wheat-dogg  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:26:31pm

re: #194 Dark_Falcon

Opiate of the masses, in other words?

Hope we can discuss this when you're more awake.

197 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:27:54pm

re: #194 Dark_Falcon

Ethics relies too much on reason, and thus on thought.

This sentence makes no sense.

Too many people don't or won't think, and instant gratification just pushes that even higher.

This is wrong. People don't not think. They always think. Their line of reasoning may be highly flawed, but people are not capable of not thinking.

Religion as a source of ethics addds an emotional basis behind the ethics, giving them greater strength and not needing as much though to adopt.

No, it doesn't. Ethics comes with a sense of emotion behind it. That's why it's ethics. It's about right and wrong, which make no sense in the absence of emotion.

There's more I want to say, but I'm starting to fade, so I'm going to sign off instead. Good Night, all.

I'd love to hear more of what you have to say, and what on earth you think ethics is based on if it's not based on the way humans feel about things.

198 Mich-again  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:32:41pm

re: #197 Obdicut

It's about right and wrong, which make no sense in the absence of emotion.

I tend to disagree with that. Spock was emotionless but he knew right from wrong.

199 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:35:20pm

re: #198 Mich-again

I tend to disagree with that. Spock was emotionless but he knew right from wrong.

Spock wasn't emotionless, Star Trek is a TV show that made very little sense, and Vulcans didn't actually make decisions based on logic in the absence of emotion, because there's no point in taking any actions if there's no emotions.

That's what I liked about Enterprise; most of the time Vulcans are around, they're all pissed off, either being passive-aggressive dicks or outright contemptuous assholes.

200 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:35:57pm

re: #198 Mich-again

I tend to disagree with that. Spock was emotionless but he knew right from wrong.

Ignoring the fact that Spock is a fictional character, how much do you think his depth of ethical knowledge benefited from experiencing pon farr first hand?

Jesus Christ, I can't believe I just typed that sentence with a straight face.

201 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:38:11pm

re: #200 goddamnedfrank

You will goddamned love this, goddamnedfrank.

Youtube Video


And anyway, Vulcans didn't claim to be emotionless, just to control their emotions, like Scientologists.

202 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:39:05pm

re: #186 wheatdogg

What's your take on that? Douthat seems to be yearning for the good old days when the RCC ran the whole show. I've got some problems with his reasoning, but have to admit the lack of a national hierarchy in some Protestant churches in the USA tends to foster some pretty weird offshoots of Xianity.

Of course he's nostalgic for the Pious XII days - his kind wasn't killed by the butchers in Franco's Spain or Pinochet's Chile. Opus Dei must love his kind of useful idiot.

203 freetoken  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:39:27pm

A book review at the NYT:

Breaking Faith
‘Bad Religion,’ by Ross Douthat

[...]

The plunge into heresy, Douthat believes, can be traced to theological developments like the revisionist Jesus Seminar and the unlikely trinity of Elaine Pagels, Bart Ehrman and Dan Brown. Douthat accuses them of discrediting Christian orthodoxy in the interests of remaking Jesus in their own image, often for political ends. Debunking the debunkers, Douthat concludes that “they speak the language of the conspiratorial pamphlet, the paranoid chain e-mail — or the paperback thriller.” The currency of these ideas has given rise to what the author calls the “God Within” movement. “A choose-your-own-Jesus mentality,” Douthat writes, “encourages spiritual seekers to screen out discomfiting parts of the New Testament and focus only on whichever Christ they find most congenial.”

[...]

As is so common with traditionalists, Douthat doesn't like those who want to question the very basis of Magickal Book think.

This is one reason why I've been mentioning Ehrman's book so much lately. Not that he's done a good job (I think it is indeed rather insufficient job), but because he's hitting at the core of the problem: the foundations of people's beliefs.

This dovetails with another article, from yesterday, in the NYT:

The Science of Illusion

[...]

Such tricks suggest that we are often blind to the results of our own decisions. Once a choice is made, our minds tend to rewrite history in a way that flatters our volition, a fact magicians have exploited for centuries. “If you are given a choice, you believe you have acted freely,” said Teller, of the duo Penn and Teller, to Smithsonian magazine. “This is one of the darkest of all psychological secrets.”

[...]

This really is a deep element of what it means to be human. And, this is played out directly in religion and religious beliefs.

204 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:40:22pm

re: #201 Obdicut

You will goddamned love this, goddamnedfrank.

[Embedded content]


And anyway, Vulcans didn't claim to be emotionless, just to control their emotions, like Scientologists.

Good news!

[Mumbles to self.]

205 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:44:02pm

Coming up next. The Muffin Report and a USAF safety film. First though, the weather. Denver broke a record high today at 104. Yesterday's record was also broken at 102. (F)

206 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:44:34pm

re: #198 Mich-again

I tend to disagree with that. Spock was emotionless but he knew right from wrong.

*Puts on Trekkie cap* Spock was never emotionless, just as all Vulcans aren't emotionless. They simply have, through years/decades of mental discipline, used logic and self-control to bring those emotions under check. In fact, Vulcans are naturally far more emotional than humans, to the point that before the adoption of logic as the basis for their society, they came close to annihilating themselves through atomic warfare. And the adopt of logic, as preached by Surak, was not adopted by all, the splinter group leaving Vulcan to settle upon a new planet, eventually becoming the Romulan Star Empire.

*Takes off Trekkie cap*

207 freetoken  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:44:46pm

Those few sentences by Penn ought to be put on a placard and placed on a wall in every classroom.

208 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:45:21pm

Great, now I have the image of Romney playing this "prank" stuck in my head for some weird reason....

Youtube Video


Gahh...get it out, get it out!!!

Image: badimage.jpg

209 austin_blue  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:51:56pm

re: #208 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

Great, now I have the image of Romney playing this "prank" stuck in my head for some weird reason...

[Embedded content]


Gahh...get it out, get it out!!!

Image: badimage.jpg

Confused. A rabbit's head is made of Mozzarella...

210 austin_blue  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:54:32pm

re: #205 Gus

Coming up next. The Muffin Report and a USAF safety film. First though, the weather. Denver broke a record high today at 104. Yesterday's record was also broken at 102. (F)

Hey, hey! Look at Debby! We need this. Sewiouswy!

[Link: www.nhc.noaa.gov...]

211 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:55:55pm

re: #210 austin_blue

Hey, hey! Look at Debby! We need this. Sewiouswy!

[Link: www.nhc.noaa.gov...]

Yeah. They evacuated the rigs over there. I'm sure the Brent futures market will overreact like they always do. What can you do.

Edit: Forgot to quote you AB. D'oh!

212 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:57:31pm

re: #210 austin_blue

Hey, hey! Look at Debby! We need this. Sewiouswy!

[Link: www.nhc.noaa.gov...]

Had to edit 211. Forgot to quote ya.

213 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 9:58:54pm

re: #209 austin_blue

Confused. A rabbit's head is made of Mozzarella...

Don't be silly, everyone knows that rabbits heads are made out of stale milk chocolate that are unfortunately hollow and not nearly as filling as they look. :p

214 wheat-dogg  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:00:41pm

re: #205 Gus

Coming up next. The Muffin Report and a USAF safety film. First though, the weather. Denver broke a record high today at 104. Yesterday's record was also broken at 102. (F)

Nice. I'm flying into Denver July 10. Hope the heat wave moderates by then.

215 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:01:06pm

... . .-. --. . -.-- .-.-.- / .. ..-. / -.-- --- ..- / -.-. .- -. / .-. . .- -.. / - .... .. ... / .--. .-.. . .- ... . / - .-. .- -. ... -- .. - .-.-.- / -.-. --- -- . / .. -. / ... . .-. --. . -.-- .-.-.-

216 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:02:26pm

re: #214 wheatdogg

Nice. I'm flying into Denver July 10. Hope the heat wave moderates by then.

It might. I know we used to reach our highest always around July 4th. This is pretty early. 100s a rare but they do happen. I remember the hottest being 113 one July.

217 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:06:55pm

There's also the record breaking fire. Not of all time. However it's at 90,000 acres plus thus far north of here. Other fires throughout the state.

218 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:07:38pm
Youtube Video
219 wheat-dogg  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:09:17pm

re: #217 Gus

I haven't been to Denver for about 30 years. Coming with a newcomer. What do you suggest we do for 1-2 days that doesn't cost too much money?
I'll be with one of my students from China who has never been to the States.

220 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:11:26pm

re: #219 wheatdogg

I haven't been to Denver for about 30 years. Coming with a newcomer. What do you suggest we do for 1-2 days that doesn't cost too much money?
I'll be with one of my students from China who has never been to the States.

You can do a Rocky Mountain National Park visit in 1 day. Depends on what you like. There are some neighborhoods. Might be something going on that day too. Let me think...

221 wheat-dogg  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:13:59pm

re: #220 Gus

We're arriving mid-afternoon and will probably be lagged. But the park sounds like a great idea. Does Denver have a Chinatown?

222 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:15:51pm

re: #221 wheatdogg

We're arriving mid-afternoon and will probably be lagged. But the park sounds like a great idea. Does Denver have a Chinatown?

Nah. No towns like that in Denver. There's a "Japantown" mall. Kind of reminded me of the one in San Francisco. You might think about the Denver art museum. It's an architectural visit that's for sure. Don't know about their current collection.

223 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:17:24pm

re: #222 Gus

Nah. No towns like that in Denver. There's a "Japantown" mall. Kind of reminded me of the one in San Francisco. You might think about the Denver art museum. It's an architectural visit that's for sure. Don't know about their current collection.

[Link: www.google.com...]

224 wheat-dogg  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:18:40pm

Thanks. I turned my email display on, so if you have any ideas, shoot me an email.

225 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:21:08pm

re: #224 wheatdogg

Thanks. I turned my email display on, so if you have any ideas, shoot me an email.

If you rent a convertible I can drive you around. ;)

226 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:24:42pm

RMNP

227 austin_blue  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:24:44pm

re: #221 wheatdogg

We're arriving mid-afternoon and will probably be lagged. But the park sounds like a great idea. Does Denver have a Chinatown?

Denver has microbreweries. Really, really good beer. But it's a steakhouse town, as far as food is concerned the last time I visited. But that's been a while. My Da was born and raised in Denver, and my memories of Colorado are skiing and trout fly fishing. Sweet. Lovely. Beautiful.

228 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:26:17pm

re: #227 austin_blue

Denver has microbreweries. Really, really good beer. But it's a steakhouse town, as far as food is concerned the last time I visited. But that's been a while. My Da was born and raised in Denver, and my memories of Colorado are skiing and trout fly fishing. Sweet. Lovely. Beautiful.

Road trip! Great Sand Dunes. Head over to Durango. Grand Junction and then some kayaking.

229 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:27:26pm

The other day I was looking at photos of John F. Kennedy. He was so young.

230 wheat-dogg  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:31:21pm

re: #225 Gus

Careful, I might just take you up on that offer. But ragtop rentals might be out of my price range. ;-)

231 austin_blue  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:31:30pm

re: #229 Gus

The other day I was looking at photos of John F. Kennedy. He was so young.

Well, that's a fine nonsequitor. Point?

232 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:33:15pm

re: #231 austin_blue

Well, that's a fine nonsequitor. Point?

Probably that I am older than when JFK died.

[Dobro slide.]

233 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:34:18pm

re: #230 wheatdogg

Careful, I might just take you up on that offer. But ragtop rentals might be out of my price range. ;-)

There's also Mt. Evans. [Link: www.mountevans.com...]

234 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:35:43pm

Listen kid. Looks like you have a case of the nonsequitors. Take two of these and call me in the morning.

[Hand blown horn sound. Two notes.]

235 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:37:58pm
Youtube Video
236 austin_blue  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:38:20pm

re: #232 Gus

Probably that I am older than when JFK died.

[Dobro slide.]

Ah, well, me too.

I remember we got sent home early that day from school, and I saw my Da sitting on the side of the bed, crying. I was in second grade, and I realized that what happened was really important. We all gathered around the TV that weekend and cried when John-john saluted his dad.

237 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:40:02pm

re: #236 austin_blue

Ah, well, me too.

I remember we got sent home early that day from school, and I saw my Da sitting on the side of the bed, crying. I was in second grade, and I realized that what happened was really important. We all gathered around the TV that weekend and cried when John-john saluted his dad.

JFK was a genius.

238 wheat-dogg  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:44:42pm

I was in the first grade. We were in recess at the time, IIRC. I remember watching the news with my folks,and my dad, a Republican, cried, too.

239 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:50:30pm

I sure could use a garage door right now too.

//

240 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:56:15pm

This is pretty funny.

[Link: twitpic.com...]

241 freetoken  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:57:33pm

re: #240 Gus

That's the old Mitt.

Now we have the new, improved, Mitt 2.0 .

242 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:57:53pm

re: #238 wheatdogg

and my dad, a Republican, cried, too.

QFT. I remember a sf novel I read as a teen where one character said that America died on November 22, 1963 but it had more to do with the idea of our "we're all in it together" innocence than the partisan way it would be taken today.

243 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:58:19pm

re: #241 freetoken

That's the old Mitt.

Now we have the new, improved, Mitt 2.0 .

Captain Amercia does not approve of the "new Mitt."

244 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:59:00pm

re: #241 freetoken

That's the old Mitt.

Now we have the new, improved, Mitt 2.0 .

Meet the new boss.
Upgraded from the old boss.

///

245 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 10:59:16pm

Please restate closer to the microphone or select cancel. Repeat. Please restate closer to the...

246 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 11:00:33pm

re: #244 William Barnett-Lewis

Meet the new boss.
Upgraded from the old boss.

///

See and Milton Version 1.0 was probably the best one.

247 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 11:04:37pm
248 engineer cat  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 11:28:26pm

november 22, 1963

i was nine years old. in school that day suddenly we heard a radio news report broadcast over the PA. gradually we made out what had happened

my father pulled the tv into the dining room for us all to gather and watch the funeral. ironically it made for one of the few occasions we acted like a family

i remember asking my father what he was watching when the kennedy/nixon debates were on the tv a few years before. i told him i thought presidents were only something in history. he showed me a picture of eisenhower, who i thought looked exactly like granpa jack

america had a some kind of greyness and dissatisfaction hanging over it at the end of the 50s. there was talk of stifling conformism and the boredom of the suburbs. kennedy was glamorous and exciting - seeing him as president gave a kind of sparkle to the country, an optimistic feeling that now things were going to be really fun and interesting again, that exciting things were going to be happening and the country was going to take off and go places

then it seemed like it was all taken away

249 austin_blue  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 11:33:02pm

re: #247 Gus

[Embedded content]

I have an "assault weapon". An H&K 91 in .308. Just bought a Russian Mosin-Nagant (7.62 X 54) for $125. I'll be on the range next weekend seeing which is the better shooter.

250 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 11:38:30pm

My connection will die.

251 Gus  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 11:39:42pm

I give up. I don't know.

252 prairiefire  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 11:41:04pm

re: #248 engineer cat

The 60's seem glamorous now, looking back with nostalgia. Certainly there were stricter codes for dress and how to present yourself in public. Gloves and hats! People took a lot of time to get ready to go out. Remember the "portable hair dryers with bonnets"?

253 freetoken  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 11:44:53pm

re: #251 Gus

I don't know.

re: #252 prairiefire

Oh yes, the 60's":

MP3 Audio
254 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 11:46:25pm

re: #252 prairiefire

What I remember about those years is the glow and roar of the rocket engines being tested just a few miles away. The X-15 program and the early space program. Seemed like everyone worked for a NASA contractor in the west San Fernando valley. I remember sonic booms in the early '60's.

255 freetoken  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 11:49:07pm

re: #254 Daniel Ballard

What I remember about those years is the glow and roar of the rocket engines being tested just a few miles away. The X-15 program and the early space program. Seemed like everyone worked for a NASA contractor in the west San Fernando valley. I remember sonic booms in the early '60's.

This most definitely has been 60's week here:

MP3 Audio
256 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 11:51:14pm

re: #219 wheatdogg

I haven't been to Denver for about 30 years. Coming with a newcomer. What do you suggest we do for 1-2 days that doesn't cost too much money?
I'll be with one of my students from China who has never been to the States.

If you like aircraft -
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

257 engineer cat  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 11:52:15pm

re: #252 prairiefire

The 60's seem glamorous now, looking back with nostalgia. Certainly there were stricter codes for dress and how to present yourself in public. Gloves and hats! People took a lot of time to get ready to go out. Remember the "portable hair dryers with bonnets"?

heh

i remember woman had to have something "done" to their hair - it wasn't possible to just have it long and natural. my mother had a blonde bubble that always smelled of the hairspray that held it rigidly in place. all women switched from the ruby matching lipstick and nail polish of the late 50s to the pink of the early 60s. women could only wear pants under certain restricted conditions

i had to have a part in my hair, and sometimes used vitalis or brylcreem - "a little dab'll do ya!". my mother said "why do you have to wear those awful bluejeans - you look like a farmer! why can't you wear these nice brown slacks???" older people told us that when we got older and more mature we'd realize how bad that rock 'n' roll music was and come to appreciate frank sinatra

258 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Jun 23, 2012 11:58:24pm

A cold war relic from the 1950/60

Nike Missile control radar station, now a local park.
Image: donna_4041.JPG

259 freetoken  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 12:05:26am

One of the bigger hits of 1963:

MP3 Audio
260 engineer cat  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 12:09:18am

re: #259 freetoken

One of the bigger hits of 1963:

[Embedded content]

i had a transistor radio and eagerly followed the top ten from week to week on wabc - "cousin brucie" was the top deejay

the rolling stones had their first hit that year, "i can't get no satisfaction", and the beatles hit with "i wanna hold your hand" and "she loves me yeah yeah yeah". they sounded like nobody else i'd ever heard

my father said "will you shut up that ya-ya music fercrissakes please???"

261 AK-47%  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 12:23:39am

I was four years old in November 1963 and I just recall being very annoyed that my favorite cartoon shows were cancelled because some stupid funeral procession was on all the TV channels...

262 freetoken  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 12:48:45am

Moving on to 1964, not really a year with a lot of pop music that appeals to me. It may have been the nadir year of the 1960's (unless you're a Beatles fan.)

Nevertheless, here's a catchy tune from that year:

MP3 Audio
263 AK-47%  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 12:51:39am

Remember the Great Folk Scare of the 60's?

264 researchok  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 12:59:43am

Morning, all

265 researchok  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 1:06:32am

re: #259 freetoken

Yup, that still works

266 researchok  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 1:11:06am

re: #255 freetoken

Telstar by the Ventures

Now that's a blast from the past.

267 freetoken  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 1:47:38am

1965... and American Pop Music may have been improving. Maybe it was the growing social movements that did it:

MP3 Audio
268 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 3:02:41am

re: #263 Expand Your Ground

Man, what a shit life that guy had. Poor bastard.

269 freetoken  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 3:31:04am
MP3 Audio
270 Obdicut  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 5:16:53am

It's going to be a nice day. I'm going for a long walk on the Highline.

[Link: www.thehighline.org...]

271 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 5:19:20am

re: #267 freetoken

1965... and American Pop Music may have been improving. Maybe it was the growing social movements that did it:

[Embedded content]

'Fear on nuclear war' songs, bah! We had those in the 1980's too:

Youtube Video
272 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 5:24:45am

re: #264 researchok

Good Morning.

273 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 5:35:15am

The F35B program seems to be doing better lately. The latest test flight (the first with an asymmetric weapons load) went well.

And yes, that's a Sidewinder on the wingtip. It's the newest AIM-9X version.

274 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 5:40:30am

re: #271 Dark_Falcon

'Fear on nuclear war' songs, bah! We had those in the 1980's too:

[Embedded content]

Bah, DF you have to go auf deutsch with this song. The lyrics are much better than the poorly translated english mess. Much more bitter and sarcastic as befits a nation that had been nearly destroyed twice and would have been ground zero for the Peshing IIs and SS-20's...

Youtube Video
275 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 5:51:33am

re: #274 William Barnett-Lewis

Bah, DF you have to go auf deutsch with this song. The lyrics are much better than the poorly translated english mess. Much more bitter and sarcastic as befits a nation that had been nearly destroyed twice and would have been ground zero for the Pershing IIs and SS-20's...

[Embedded content]

Thankfully, those fears did not come to pass. The dislike of Ronald Reagan by many in Germany turned out to be the most incorrect thing of all. Far from being a fan of the Pershing II, less than 5 years after Nena recorded their big hit Reagan signed a treaty that mandated the scrapping of all Intermediate Range Ballistic Missiles. The IRBM Treaty was the codifying of the 'Zero Option' that Reagan had long supported.

276 AK-47%  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 5:57:38am

re: #275 Dark_Falcon

There are windmills up on the hillsides behind my house. They used to be Pershing missile silos. They used the silos as foundations for the windmills. Fine example of swords into plowshares.

277 Eventual Carrion  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 6:49:00am

re: #246 Gus

See and Milton Version 1.0 was probably the best one.

You ham!

278 Eventual Carrion  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 7:03:19am

re: #277 RayFerd

You ham!

Wow. I got down here and that isn't even the comment I thought I quoted.

245 Gus

Please restate closer to the microphone or select cancel. Repeat. Please restate closer to the...

279 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 7:12:26am

Here's a whopper of a lie from Russia Today
Aerial footage of Israeli strike killing 6-yr-old boy in Gaza

Youtube Video

You'll notice the only person killed in the drone video is an adult male and the drone video is in a rural area near a road by a farmer's wall. The second half of the Russia Today video showing the aftermath is an urban area of a city street flanked on both sides by 4-5 story buildings.

280 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 7:15:44am

re: #279 Killgore Trout

Here's a whopper of a lie from Russia Today
Aerial footage of Israeli strike killing 6-yr-old boy in Gaza

[Embedded content]

You'll notice the only person killed in the drone video is an adult male and the drone video is in a rural area near a road by a farmer's wall. The second half of the Russia Today video showing the aftermath is an urban area of a city street flanked on both sides by 4-5 story buildings.

No surprise there. Since we had a 60's riff earlier on this thread, followed by a short 1980's interjection, it seems appropriate to note that this bit of filth reminds me of KGB 'active measures' from back in the Bad Old Days.

281 lawhawk  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 7:38:08am

Morsi has been declared President of Egypt...

282 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 7:44:40am

re: #281 lawhawk

Morsi has been declared President of Egypt...

Question now is, will the 'spring" turn quickly to "fall" there?

283 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 7:47:18am

re: #279 Killgore Trout

someone ated the video!!

("this video has been removed by the user")

284 lawhawk  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 7:47:20am

re: #282 sattv4u2

The real wildcard isn't the Muslim Brotherhood but the military. The military junta running things has been undercutting the powers vested in the presidency, has limited the actions of the parliament, and are far more entrenched in power than any other group.

The Brotherhood's win of the presidency may end up being symbolic if the true power resides with the military.

285 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 7:47:29am

re: #281 lawhawk

Morsi has been declared President of Egypt...

I've been seeing a lot of talk about chaos, military power grabs, etc. I wouldn't venture a guess how this is going to play out. I guess we just wait and see.

286 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 7:48:53am

re: #284 lawhawk

The real wildcard isn't the Muslim Brotherhood but the military

Yes,, i know

Shortly before the polls closed last week, the generals issued a decree sharply limiting the powers of the new president. It permitted him to declare war, for example, only with the approval of the military council.

SCAF will also keep control of legislative power, and the budget, until a new parliament is elected

[Link: www.aljazeera.com...]

287 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 7:52:00am

re: #283 sattv4u2

someone ated the video!!

("this video has been removed by the user")

Heh. Sure enough. Russia Today scrubbed it from their youtube channel. for archival purposes somebody cross posted it.
Aerial footage of Israeli strike killing 6-yr-old boy in Gaza

Youtube Video

Same title with the Russia Today watermark still in place.
288 lawhawk  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 7:54:56am

re: #285 Killgore Trout

If history is a guide, then another military leader will eventually assume power.

That's how Nasser did it. That's how Sadat did it, and that's how Mubarak did it. Don't think for a moment that some enterprising young leader in the Egyptian military isn't thinking of doing the same.

I give the democratic movement a 50/50 chance; and the military is tipping the scales against a functioning democratic government with multiple peaceful transitions.

One election isn't proof of democracy. It's the peaceful transition from one government to another.

I do think that the military will curb whatever intentions the MB has in trying to overturn the Camp David Accords since the military knows what's at stake - and how the peace deal benefits Egypt far more than Israel. And if the MB can't get the economy going, then the focus will be on whatever the other political groups can come up with. Or, as I noted above, the military will decide that they're in a better position to govern from the top down - and maybe give a veneer of political participation with the parliament (benign junta).

289 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 7:56:38am

re: #286 sattv4u2

Shortly before the polls closed last week, the generals issued a decree sharply limiting the powers of the new president. It permitted him to declare war, for example, only with the approval of the military council.

I would guess that this is one of the biggest concerns for the military. The MB has been making noise for years about cancelling the peace treaty. That only changed for the election season. If they go apeshit the military is going to be first to pay the price. I don't know if anything can be done to stop the MB from supplying Hamas and launching attacks from Sinai.

290 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 8:03:13am

re: #289 Killgore Trout

I would guess that this is one of the biggest concerns for the military. The MB has been making noise for years about cancelling the peace treaty. That only changed for the election season. If they go apeshit the military is going to be first to pay the price. I don't know if anything can be done to stop the MB from supplying Hamas and launching attacks from Sinai.

the generals threatened to use “the utmost firmness” to preserve their authority and the Islamists presented a reunited front with some of their former allies from the revolt against Hosni Mubarak.
Hopes for a negotiated settlement seemed to fade as both sides began to treat the showdown as a life-or-death struggle

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

291 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 8:05:03am

re: #290 sattv4u2

the generals threatened to use “the utmost firmness” to preserve their authority and the Islamists presented a reunited front with some of their former allies from the revolt against Hosni Mubarak.
Hopes for a negotiated settlement seemed to fade as both sides began to treat the showdown as a life-or-death struggle

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

That means fairly little. There's too many places to hide in the Sinai, and Egypt has a conscript army not trained for counter-insurgency work. They can bang the table, but they aren't going to stop the rocket launchs without stepping up their game massively.

292 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 8:06:26am

re: #288 lawhawk

If history is a guide, then another military leader will eventually assume power.

That's how Nasser did it. That's how Sadat did it, and that's how Mubarak did it. Don't think for a moment that some enterprising young leader in the Egyptian military isn't thinking of doing the same.

I give the democratic movement a 50/50 chance; and the military is tipping the scales against a functioning democratic government with multiple peaceful transitions.

One election isn't proof of democracy. It's the peaceful transition from one government to another.

I do think that the military will curb whatever intentions the MB has in trying to overturn the Camp David Accords since the military knows what's at stake - and how the peace deal benefits Egypt far more than Israel. And if the MB can't get the economy going, then the focus will be on whatever the other political groups can come up with. Or, as I noted above, the military will decide that they're in a better position to govern from the top down - and maybe give a veneer of political participation with the parliament (benign junta).

Kemal Ataturk.

293 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 8:07:21am

re: #292 Decatur Deb

Kemal Ataturk.

need a handkerchief?
/

294 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 8:08:24am

re: #291 Dark_Falcon

That means fairly little

Keeping control of legislative power, and the budget and limiting presidential powers means "fairly little"?

295 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 8:08:36am

re: #293 sattv4u2

need a handkerchief?
/

SMACK!

296 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 8:09:07am

re: #294 sattv4u2

That means fairly little

Keeping control of legislative power, and the budget and limiting presidential powers means "fairly little"?

In terms of stopping BM-21 launches, yes.

297 AK-47%  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 8:10:12am

re: #288 lawhawk

...And if the MB can't get the economy going, then the focus will be on whatever the other political groups can come up with. Or, as I noted above, the military will decide that they're in a better position to govern from the top down - and maybe give a veneer of political participation with the parliament (benign junta).

A major pillar of the economy is tourism. Who would want to visit an MB-controlled Egypt?

298 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 8:12:01am

re: #297 Expand Your Ground

A major pillar of the economy is tourism. Who would want to visit an MB-controlled Egypt?

Pamela Geller??

/

299 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 8:13:09am

re: #296 Dark_Falcon

In terms of stopping BM-21 launches, yes.

Why would that be an issue now with a new presidency (and the same military) as before with Mubarak and the same military?

300 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 8:19:17am

re: #299 sattv4u2

Why would that be an issue now with a new presidency (and the same military) as before with Mubarak and the same military?

Because Egypt's forces in the Sinai were greatly reduced by the turmoil, and are still not back up to strength. And the enemy has not spent the time its had idle; they've build up supply caches and hiding places and the MB will be in a better position to aid them now, whatever else is true.

301 Varek Raith  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 8:19:53am

re: #297 Expand Your Ground

A major pillar of the economy is tourism. Who would want to visit an MB-controlled Egypt?

The same people who visited during a full blown dictatorship.

302 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 8:25:21am

Morning all!

I saw part of this clip before. I don't really want to watch the rest.

How are you-all this am?

303 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 8:28:03am

re: #302 ggt

Morning all!

I saw part of this clip before. I don't really want to watch the rest.

How are you-all this am?

Doing fairly well.

304 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 8:28:08am

re: #300 Dark_Falcon

Egypt's forces in the Sinai were greatly reduced by the turmoil

egypt has the 10th (iirc) largest military in the world. Something in the order of a half a million troops
The Sania is about a 3 hour drive from Cairo

i'm sure they could be "back up to strength" in a matter of hours

305 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 8:28:32am

Honestly, the Romney's seem like a nice family. Happy together in their world--no major stresses or strains. Good for them, if that's what they want.

That does not qualify him, in any way, for the Oval Office.

306 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 8:29:31am

re: #304 sattv4u2

Egypt's forces in the Sinai were greatly reduced by the turmoil

egypt has the 10th (iirc) largest military in the world. Something in the order of a half a million troops
The Sania is about a 3 hour dreive from Cairo

i'm sure they could be "back up to strength" in a matter of hours

I enjoyed the Egyptian heart surgeon turned comedian on Jon Stewart. He was a needed reminder that people are people everywhere.

307 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 8:32:10am

re: #288 lawhawk

If history is a guide, then another military leader will eventually assume power.

That's how Nasser did it. That's how Sadat did it, and that's how Mubarak did it. Don't think for a moment that some enterprising young leader in the Egyptian military isn't thinking of doing the same.

I give the democratic movement a 50/50 chance; and the military is tipping the scales against a functioning democratic government with multiple peaceful transitions.

One election isn't proof of democracy. It's the peaceful transition from one government to another.

I do think that the military will curb whatever intentions the MB has in trying to overturn the Camp David Accords since the military knows what's at stake - and how the peace deal benefits Egypt far more than Israel. And if the MB can't get the economy going, then the focus will be on whatever the other political groups can come up with. Or, as I noted above, the military will decide that they're in a better position to govern from the top down - and maybe give a veneer of political participation with the parliament (benign junta).

After reading Paris 1919 by Margaret MacMillian, I am strangely cognizant of what is happening in Egypt right now. Sad situation.

308 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 8:36:22am
Most Americans, including most Catholics, support a clear separation of government and religion. If you’re one of the many who do, it’s time to speak up.

It's on my fb.

309 Varek Raith  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 8:41:09am

Turkey declares jet shoot-down a 'hostile' act

310 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 8:43:06am

re: #309 Varek Raith

Turkey declares jet shoot-down a 'hostile' act

Turkey calls for NATO meeting over Syria

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

311 wheat-dogg  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 8:44:26am

re: #258 Daniel Ballard

A cold war relic from the 1950/60

Nike Missile control radar station, now a local park.
Image: donna_4041.JPG

My school in first grade was right next to a Nike missile base on Long Island. It was 1963-64. We did us some air raid drills.

312 Varek Raith  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 8:49:57am

re: #311 wheatdogg

My school in first grade was right next to a Nike missile base on Long Island. It was 1963-64. We did us some air raid drills.

Duck and cover!
AKA,
Kiss your ass goodbye!
Ah, Cold War humor.
:P

313 simoom  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 8:51:10am

Kind of weird since Rep. Issa usually has no problem calling this Obama's Watergate and a coverup, but today, on Fox News Sunday he essentially disagreed with Spkr. Boehner's recent assertions and also basically said he had no evidence the White House was involved in the F&F decisions, no evidence they knowingly misled congress (though, inconsistently, he later said they lied to the american people) and no evidence of any sort of WH coverup:

[Link: www.rawstory.com...]

Chris Wallace: After the President invoked Executive Privilege, House Speaker Boehner said that that changes everything. Let's watch.

(clip of Spkr. Boehner press statement plays)

Spkr. Boehner: The decision to invoke executive privilege is an admission that White House officials were involved in decisions that misled the Congress and have covered up the truth.

Chris Wallace: Question, do you have any evidence that White House officials were involved in these decisions, that they knowingly misled Congress, and are involved in a cover-up?

Rep. Issa: (shakes his head side-to-side) No, we don’t. And what we are seeking are documents that we know to exist, February 4 to December that are in fact about Brian Terry’s murder, who knew, and why people were lying about it, and get to the truth. That's all we want. Eric Holder ends up being the custodian of the documents. We would go to the Deputy Attorney General just as easily if he would give us the documents. That's all we're looking for, is the documents which are internal to the false statement, and not part of the deliberative process. You know in the Nixon --

(Chris Wallace interrupts)

Chris Wallace: But I just want to be clear, and then we’ve got to get out. No evidence, at this point, that the White House is involved in the cover up?

Rep. Issa: (shakes his head side-to-side) And I hope they don’t get involved. I hope that this stays at Justice and Justice cooperates, 'cuz ultimately Justice lied to the american people on February 4th and they didn't make it right for 10 months.

Chris Wallace: All right, we're going to have to leave it there.

314 Varek Raith  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 8:54:42am

re: #313 simoom

Kind of weird since Rep. Issa usually has no problem calling this Obama's Watergate and a coverup, but today, on Fox News Sunday he essentially disagreed with Spkr. Boehner's recent assertions and also basically said he had no evidence the White House was involved in the F&F decisions, no evidence they knowingly misled congress (though, inconsistently, he later said they lied to the american people) and no evidence of any sort of WH coverup:

[Link: www.rawstory.com...]

Heh.

315 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:00:11am

bbl

316 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:01:43am

re: #315 ggt

bbl

why??
//

317 AK-47%  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:08:28am

re: #301 Varek Raith

The same people who visited during a full blown dictatorship.

The MB was big on cracking down on those dens of iniquity that are foreign tourist resorts. Hard to get a Club Med tan wearing a burkha...

318 Kragar  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:08:41am

Perry: Obama’s Use Of Executive Privilege Is ‘Nixonian’

319 Varek Raith  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:09:48am

re: #318 Kragar

Perry: Obama’s Use Of Executive Privilege Is ‘Nixonian’

That bird ain't gonna fly.

320 Varek Raith  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:10:45am

re: #317 Expand Your Ground

I see your point.

321 Kragar  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:14:46am

re: #319 Varek Raith

That bird ain't gonna fly.

Just because the idea is ridiculous doesn't mean they're going to let it go.

322 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:15:38am

re: #319 Varek Raith

That bird ain't gonna fly.

Remember, in the public's mind, every "scandal" is the next Watergate. Hence the media's fascination with slapped "-gate" at the end of every one.

323 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:17:27am

re: #322 Targetpractice

Remember, in the public's mind, every "scandal" is the next Watergate. Hence the media's fascination with slapped "-gate" at the end of every one.

or conversley

the media slaps the suffix "GATE" on anything and the publics ears perk up in anticipation!

324 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:18:05am

re: #322 Targetpractice

re: #323 sattv4u2

or conversley

the media slaps the suffix "GATE" on anything and the publics ears perk up in anticipation!

The old, 'if it bleeds it leads" theory of journalism

325 Kronocide  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:18:28am

re: #318 Kragar

Perry: Obama’s Use Of Executive Privilege Is ‘Nixonian’

Go paint some rocks Rick.

326 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:18:31am

re: #324 sattv4u2

re: #323 sattv4u2

The old, 'if it bleeds it leads" theory of journalism

Sensationalists are gonna sensationalize.

327 Kragar  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:20:14am

re: #324 sattv4u2

re: #323 sattv4u2

The old, 'if it bleeds it leads" theory of journalism

If it bleeds we can kill it.

328 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:22:33am

re: #327 Kragar

If it bleeds we can kill it.

When I go out for a steak dinner I tell my waiter(ress) if it's not still bleeding you cooked it too long

329 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:26:01am

re: #327 Kragar

If it bleeds we can kill it.

Yes, but what if you don't have time to bleed?

330 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:27:07am

Not going to link to it (for obvious reasons) but Drudge has a link to a BrietBart linked video from MEMRI TV with the new President of Egypt saying that
"our capital will not be Cairo, Mecca or Medina, it will be Jerusalem, Allah willing"

331 Kragar  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:28:10am

re: #329 Targetpractice

Yes, but what if you don't have time to bleed?

Got time to duck?

332 DC-3  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:33:49am

The last time I posted here (months ago) was to disagree with the support here for the still young revolt in Egypt. I said the religious fanatics would win when and if democracy comes in. They did. They will in Syria. Soon Israel will have more rabid enemies on all sides. The "Arab Spring" is not a good thing for Israel. Elections in Iran, Egypt, Palestine, go to the fanatics, and soon in Syria.

Things became worse for Christians in Iraq when democracy came in.
Already the loudspeakers in Rebel controlled Syria are ordering all Christians to leave immediately. 10's of thousands have, fearing for their lives.

Meanwhile back in Egypt announcements from the President elect that Jerusalem is going to be Egypt's capital, G-d willing.

The army will lose the power struggle. The MB will win. Israel will lose. As it will in Syria. And in Afghanistan when the Taliban shares power as is inevitable.

The 'Arab Spring' was the beginning of the end for Israel. This is the worst thing I have seen, I'm too young to remember WWII.

333 Gus  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:36:02am

re: #330 sattv4u2

Not going to link to it (for obvious reasons) but Drudge has a link to a BrietBart linked video from MEMRI TV with the new President of Egypt saying that
"our capital will not be Cairo, Mecca or Medina, it will be Jerusalem, Allah willing"

That's actually from May during the campaign and was made by the "cleric" Safwat Higazi. The video can be seen here. I got this information from Camera.

334 Gus  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:37:02am

So no, Muhammad Mursi, did not make that statement.

335 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:37:12am

re: #332 DC-3

And what would you propose have been done instead? Should we, a nation that promotes freedom, liberty, and the ideal of democracy, have stepped in militarily to prevent the Arab Spring? Should we have put on display, in the most blatant fashion imaginable, that we only stand for self-governance when it benefits us or Israel?

336 Gus  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:37:45am

re: #335 Targetpractice

And what would you propose have been done instead? Should we, a nation that promotes freedom, liberty, and the ideal of democracy, have stepped in militarily to prevent the Arab Spring? Should we have put on display, in the most blatant fashion imaginable, that we only stand for self-governance when it benefits us or Israel?

War!

337 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:38:10am

re: #333 Gus

That's actually from May during the campaign and was made by the "cleric" Safwat Higazi. The video can be seen here. I got this information from Camera.

Thanks

yeah,, I didn't see a date on the MEMRI-TV bug and iit did say "Muslim cleric introduces Morsi" but the speaker did look like him (grainy as the video was)

Disturbing, non the less

338 Gus  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:39:21am

re: #337 sattv4u2

Thanks

yeah,, I didn't see a date on the MEMRI-TV bug and iit did say "Muslim cleric introduces Morsi" but the speaker did look like him (grainy as the video was)

Disturbing, non the less

Yes. It's unfortunate but it's manageable. If Egypt wants to go down this path it's their loss.

339 erik_t  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:40:07am

re: #335 Targetpractice

And what would you propose have been done instead? Should we, a nation that promotes freedom, liberty, and the ideal of democracy, have stepped in militarily to prevent the Arab Spring? Should we have put on display, in the most blatant fashion imaginable, that we only stand for self-governance when it benefits us or Israel?

All freedom is equal, but some freedom is more equal than others.

340 Kragar  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:40:26am

re: #335 Targetpractice

And what would you propose have been done instead? Should we, a nation that promotes freedom, liberty, and the ideal of democracy, have stepped in militarily to prevent the Arab Spring? Should we have put on display, in the most blatant fashion imaginable, that we only stand for self-governance when it benefits us or Israel?

We could go all Bryan Fischer and force them to convert at gunpoint.
///

341 Gus  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:41:16am

Keep in mind that Mursi got 25 percent of a 50 percent vote.

342 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:41:33am

BBL

343 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:44:25am

re: #341 Gus

Keep in mind that Mursi got 25 percent of a 50 percent vote.

Just about the same turnout as our natioanl election years

[Link: www.infoplease.com...]

344 Gus  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:45:22am

re: #343 sattv4u2

Just about the same turnout as our natioanl election years

[Link: www.infoplease.com...]

I was thinking about that.

345 Gus  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:46:53am
346 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 9:54:04am

re: #332 DC-3

The last time I posted here (months ago) was to disagree with the support here for the still young revolt in Egypt. I said the religious fanatics would win when and if democracy comes in. They did. They will in Syria. Soon Israel will have more rabid enemies on all sides. The "Arab Spring" is not a good thing for Israel. Elections in Iran, Egypt, Palestine, go to the fanatics, and soon in Syria.

Things became worse for Christians in Iraq when democracy came in.
Already the loudspeakers in Rebel controlled Syria are ordering all Christians to leave immediately. 10's of thousands have, fearing for their lives.

Meanwhile back in Egypt announcements from the President elect that Jerusalem is going to be Egypt's capital, G-d willing.

The army will lose the power struggle. The MB will win. Israel will lose. As it will in Syria. And in Afghanistan when the Taliban shares power as is inevitable.

The 'Arab Spring' was the beginning of the end for Israel. This is the worst thing I have seen, I'm too young to remember WWII.

That's the line of argument that leads to the continual upholding and support of dictatorships and thugs who kill their own citizenry simply because they are on "our side". Does not fit well with our country's stated principles and claim of holding moral high ground.

And at some point other countries need to be allowed to self-govern. They are not populated by children whose hand we have to hold, scold, and spank when they misbehave. And barring military intervention and the implementation of some sort of American Empire (God forbid) it is also fairly obvious that continuous meddling is going to probably make things worse in the long run.

347 Gus  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:03:19am

re: #346 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

That's the line of argument that leads to the continual upholding and support of dictatorships and thugs who kill their own citizenry simply because they are on "our side". Does not fit well with our country's stated principles and claim of holding moral high ground.

And at some point other countries need to be allowed to self-govern. They are not populated by children whose hand we have to hold, scold, and spank when they misbehave. And barring military intervention and the implementation of some sort of American Empire (God forbid) it is also fairly obvious that continuous meddling is going to probably make things worse in the long run.

Americans need to calm down. In the first place Egypt just elected a president for the first time in 5,000 years. Morsy (aka Mursi, Morsi) will be president for less than a year and essentially got 1/8th of the popular vote in Egypt. We sill don't know the outcome of this presidency.

348 Gus  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:03:27am
349 erik_t  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:04:16am

re: #347 Gus

Americans need to calm down. In the first place Egypt just elected a president for the first time in 5,000 years. Morsy (aka Mursi, Morsi) will be president for less than a year and essentially got 1/8th of the popular vote in Egypt. We sill don't know the outcome of this presidency.

But MoOOOom, I want to panic nowwwwwww!

350 Gus  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:06:10am

re: #349 erik_t

But MoOOOom, I want to panic nowww!

Start beating my chest while drinking 3-2 beer and listening to Skynrd!

//

351 Kragar  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:06:49am

Romney Adviser Hits Back On Bain Offshoring: Obama Is ‘Outsourcing’ Jobs To Nebraska!

During an appearance on CNN’s State of the Union, Romney adviser Ed Gillespie continued the campaign’s dubious strategy of schooling reporters on the difference between “outsourcing” and “offshoring” jobs, insisting that a Washington Post investigation — which found that Romney’s company “invested in a series of firms that specialized in relocating jobs done by American workers to new facilities in low-wage countries like China and India” — misunderstood the complicated business jargon.

Gillespie said that he was “not aware” if companies tied to Bain shipped jobs overseas, before adding, “what happened in the story as near I can tell is that the reporter confused the notion of outsourcing.” “Now a lot of American companies outsource, they outsource domestically,” he said, noting that the Obama campaign outsources jobs to Nebraska and CNN contracts out video editing projects.

352 Varek Raith  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:08:04am

Thank Zod twitter wasn't around during the American Revolution and its aftermath.

353 Digital Display  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:08:17am

Hi Lizards! Hot in Oklahoma.. As usual..
Great F-1 Race on!

354 Gus  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:08:41am

re: #352 Varek Raith

Thank Zod twitter wasn't around during the American Revolution and its aftermath.

#WashingtonGulag

355 erik_t  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:09:16am

re: #351 Kragar

Romney Adviser Hits Back On Bain Offshoring: Obama Is ‘Outsourcing’ Jobs To Nebraska!

If that last Nebraska electoral vote flips back to red, do they get to be a state again?

356 Gus  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:09:18am

George Washington said a bad thing!!

357 Gus  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:10:36am

Operation Market Garden a failure. The war against the Axis powers is lost. #Eleventy #HerptyDerptyDo

358 AK-47%  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:10:38am

re: #351 Kragar

Romney Adviser Hits Back On Bain Offshoring: Obama Is ‘Outsourcing’ Jobs To Nebraska!

To "outsource domestically"?

359 kirkspencer  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:10:38am

re: #351 Kragar

Romney Adviser Hits Back On Bain Offshoring: Obama Is ‘Outsourcing’ Jobs To Nebraska!

blink.

It's times like this that make me wonder, without sarcasm, what color the sky is in their home world.

360 Varek Raith  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:11:02am

re: #351 Kragar

Romney Adviser Hits Back On Bain Offshoring: Obama Is ‘Outsourcing’ Jobs To Nebraska!

Whut.

361 Varek Raith  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:12:05am

You heard folks!
According to the GOP, Nebraska is foreign!
/

363 Gus  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:12:50am

re: #361 Varek Raith

You heard folks!
According to the GOP, Nebraska is foreign!
/

Ne Bra Ska

364 dragonfire1981  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:14:11am

re: #351 Kragar

Romney Adviser Hits Back On Bain Offshoring: Obama Is ‘Outsourcing’ Jobs To Nebraska!

You fail Mr. Gillespie. Your audience now is not business people, it's the American people. In mainstream culture "outsourcing" means only one thing. I doubt most Americans would consider a company that shifts jobs from Seattle to San Francisco to be "outsourcing".

365 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:14:53am

re: #361 Varek Raith

You heard folks!
According to the GOP, Nebraska is foreign!
/

Sharia has landed and is creeping towards Iowa. A Zerg rush expected to follow shortly.
/

366 dragonfire1981  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:15:47am

Also, OT possible technical issue for Charles:

For some reason, the site seems to completely freeze up on me every so often when I go to log in at the bottom of a comments thread. I can enter my login just fine, but when I try to enter my password, the page locks up and I have to restart my browser and reload the site to be able to login.

I'm using Chrome.

367 dragonfire1981  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:16:32am

re: #365 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Sharia has landed and is creeping towards Iowa. A Zerg rush expected to follow shortly.
/

Coming soon to your local market: Halal Corn

368 Kronocide  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:17:08am

re: #351 Kragar

Romney Adviser Hits Back On Bain Offshoring: Obama Is ‘Outsourcing’ Jobs To Nebraska!

These aren't the droids you're looking for.

The Force is with you Ed.

369 jaunte  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:18:34am

re: #351 Kragar

I hear that Republican spokespeople now have a single keystroke macro that will type: "Mitt Romney spent 25 years in the real world economy so he understands why..."

370 erik_t  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:22:37am

I just saw my first Romney '12 bumper sticker the other day. At this rate, I'm not sure when I'll see #2.

371 Targetpractice  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:23:43am

re: #351 Kragar

Romney Adviser Hits Back On Bain Offshoring: Obama Is ‘Outsourcing’ Jobs To Nebraska!

Uhm, isn't that a good thing to the Randian cult? That, if a business feels that it could get a better deal for itself in another state, then it should be free to pull up sticks and move?

372 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:35:21am

re: #371 Targetpractice

Uhm, isn't that a good thing to the Randian cult? That, if a business feels that it could get a better deal for itself in another state, then it should be free to pull up sticks and move?

Well, sort of. The think progress title is deceptive because he's clearly talking about the difference between Offshoring and Outsourcing. The Wapo article they are discussing apparently has some factual errors which TP is still sticking with. Outsourcing and and offshoring are dirty words in American politics but it's an economic reality in the modern world. Although the specific companies in question may not have sent jobs overseas it's just an economic reality that many American companies have to do it to stay competitive. The only alternative is economic protectionism which is problematic in the long run.

373 JeffFX  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:40:40am

re: #60 freetoken

Speaking of British entertainment, another of Doctor Who's companions is down:

RIP Doctor Who Companion Caroline John (1940 – 2012)

One of very few companions that wasn't played as an airhead. I really liked her character.

374 Gus  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:41:14am

Wumpa, wumpa, wumpa.

375 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:42:09am

re: #374 Gus

Wumpa, wumpa, wumpa.

Wassa matter?
Got a flat?

376 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:42:20am

[Link: shirosrpg.blogspot.com...]

For the WH40K fans. Some Orks need a new home.

377 Gus  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:44:21am

re: #375 sattv4u2

Wassa matter?
Got a flat?

Yep.

378 Kragar  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:45:15am

re: #376 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

[Link: shirosrpg.blogspot.com...]

For the WH40K fans. Some Orks need a new home.

Nice, but I never buy prepainted.

379 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:45:45am

re: #377 Gus

Yep.

well, stop sitting on sharp things!

380 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:45:56am

Since the entire article requires a subscription I can't verify the entire contents but here's WaPo's own fact checker on an Obama ad about Romney outsourcing, I assume the contents are similar.
4 Pinocchios for Obama’s newest anti-Romney ad

Regarding the outsourcing claims, we have frowned on these before. The Obama campaign rests its case on three examples of Bain-controlled companies sending jobs overseas. But only one of the examples — involving Holson Burns Group — took place when Romney was actively managing Bain Capital.

Regarding the other claims, concerning Canadian electronics maker SMTC Manufacturing and customer service firm Modus Media, the Obama campaign tries to take advantage of a gray area in which Romney had stepped down from Bain — to manage the Salt Lake City Olympics — but had not sold his shares in the firm. We had previously given the Obama campaign Three Pinocchios for such tactics.

The Modus Media case is also not an example of shipping jobs overseas. The company closed one plant in California and transferred the jobs to North Carolina, Washington and Utah. At the same time, it opened an unrelated plant in Mexico. The Obama campaign once trumpeted the fact that we had dinged a conservative Super PAC for making the same leap in logic.

The claim that Romney outsourced jobs as governor is equally overblown.

381 Achilles Tang  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:46:11am

re: #377 Gus

Yep.

Don't text and drive.

382 Achilles Tang  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:48:19am

Shitty weather here from Debby. A new leak in a new roof. I suppose the plus is that it drips into the kitchen sink. High tide in an hour, but already a good foot or two above normal. Should be able to canoe in the street soon.

383 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:51:21am

re: #380 Killgore Trout

Since the entire article requires a subscription I can't verify the entire contents but here's WaPo's own fact checker on an Obama ad about Romney outsourcing, I assume the contents are similar.
4 Pinocchios for Obama’s newest anti-Romney ad

Ah, I got the entire WaPo article to load and the claims are the same as the Obama campaign ad (Modus Media, Utah Olypics, etc).

384 erik_t  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:51:38am

re: #380 Killgore Trout

If that ad rated Four Pinocchios, how high does the scale go? Seven? Twelve?

385 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:51:45am

Not true.

386 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:53:42am

re: #384 erik_t

If that ad rated Four Pinocchios, how high does the scale go? Seven? Twelve?

I think 5 is the highest. 4 is pretty bad. Most campaign ads get one or two.

387 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:54:00am

re: #384 erik_t

If that ad rated Four Pinocchios, how high does the scale go? Seven? Twelve?

Four's the tops

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]
in their words


Whoppers

388 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:55:32am

re: #387 sattv4u2

Four's the tops

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]
in their words

Whoppers

Ah, thanks.

389 sattv4u2  Sun, Jun 24, 2012 10:56:09am

re: #388 Killgore Trout

Ah, thanks.

n/p


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