Justice Scalia’s Right Wing Rant

Supreme Court Justice sounds like Rush Limbaugh
Politics • Views: 34,120

It’s time to play, “Who Wrote That?”

Was it a member of the Minutemen militia, a sovereign citizen living in a cabin in Idaho, or… a member of the United States Supreme Court?

The answer: Justice Antonin Scalia Rages Against Obama on Immigration.

In his point-by-point defense of the Arizona legislation, the avowed law-and-order conservative surmised that the Obama administration “desperately wants to avoid upsetting foreign powers.” He accused federal officials of “willful blindness or deliberate inattention” to the presence of illegal immigrants in Arizona.

“[T]o say, as the Court does, that Arizona contradicts federal law by enforcing applications of the Immigration Act that the President declines to enforce boggles the mind,” Scalia wrote. “If securing its territory in this fashion is not within the power of Arizona, we should cease referring to it as a sovereign State.”

The Reagan-appointed justice wrote:

It has become clear that federal enforcement priorities—in the sense of priorities based on the need to allocate “scarce enforcement resources”—is not the problem here. After this case was argued and while it was under consideration, the Secretary of Homeland Security announced a program exempting from immigration enforcement some 1.4 million illegal immigrants under the age of 30.

[For certain illegal immigrants] immigration officials have been directed to “defe[r] action” against such individual “for a period of two years, subject to renewal.” The husbanding of scarce enforcement resources can hardly be the justification for this, since the considerable administrative cost of conduct­ing as many as 1.4 million background checks, and ruling on the biennial requests for dispensation that the nonenforcement program envisions, will necessarily be deducted from immigration enforcement. The President said at a news conference that the new program is “the right thing to do” in light of Congress’s failure to pass the Administration’s proposed revision of the Immigration Act. Perhaps it is, though Arizona may not think so. But to say, as the Court does, that Arizona contradicts federal law by enforcing applications of the Immigration Act that the President declines to enforce boggles the mind.

Scalia enlisted bubble-gum to make his point, before calling it an “assault on logic” to say “identifying a removable alien and holding him for federal determination” supersedes the federal government’s authority.

“We are not talking here about a federal law prohibiting the States from regulating bubble-gum advertising, or even the construction of nuclear plants,” he declared. “We are talking about a federal law going to the core of state sovereignty: the power to exclude.”

In case you missed my point, this is a highly disturbing, unprecedented intrusion of far right wing politics into the Supreme Court. These talking points are straight out of the Rush Limbaugh playbook.

At The Atlantic, James Fallows asks: How would you describe a democracy where power was being shifted that way?

UPDATE at 6/25/12 12:44:22 pm

Here’s a transcript of the court’s opinions, including Scalia’s.

Scribd Document

Jump to bottom

194 comments
1 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:21:30pm

But to the right this is how things should be! They're taking their country back! Scalia is a patriot!

2 freetoken  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:24:10pm

Scalia has been waxing increasingly vocal about his right-wing views, speaking at gatherings of what we might label as "wingnut-ish".

3 HappyWarrior  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:24:16pm

This is the right's model supreme court justice in action folks. The guy they want their judiciary picks to emulate.

4 kirkspencer  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:24:28pm

Something to stick in notes for the future: there is talk of a civil challenge of the executive DREAM action. If it happens it's extremely likely it will get appealed to (and possibly heard by) the supreme court.

If/when it does, by every judicial measure I know Scalia should recuse himself having already displayed his judgment in this dissent. I'd be willing to wager he would not. The test would be whether the congress of the time would have the oomph to impeach him for judicial malfeasance.

5 Interesting Times  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:24:51pm

Probably after an endorsement from the wife of his BFF, Clarence Thomas 9_9

6 jaunte  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:25:43pm
Fallows: "Liberal democracies like ours depend on rules but also on norms -- on the assumption that you'll go so far, but no further, to advance your political ends. The norms imply some loyalty to the system as a whole that outweighs your immediate partisan interest."

"You lie!"

7 dragonath  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:30:04pm

Reagan really knew how to pick 'em, huh?

8 HappyWarrior  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:32:10pm

re: #7 Be Zorch, Daddio

Reagan really knew how to pick 'em, huh?

Just imagine if he had gotten his way with Robert Bork. Dodged a bullet there.And I am just reminded that same Bork who had opposition from his own party caucus is Mitt Romney's legal go to man.

9 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:32:28pm

re: #4 kirkspencer

That would be like Clarence Thomas recusing himself due to his wife's lobbying efforts against HCR. In other words, won't ever happen. But notice Kagan did in fact recuse herself from the Arizona case because of her work before it came to the court, in other words she has a bit of honor.

10 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:32:37pm

Also worth a read is Ta-Nehisi Coates' thoughts on what Fallows wrote: Some thoughts on Democratic Norms

I agree with a lot of this -- and yet I wonder how it squares with history. I feel like a broken record, but on the front of anti-black prejudice, for roughly 100 years these norms were effectively abandoned. More to the point, that 100 years begins with an apocalyptic war which began because as an outright rejection of those norms. The epoch following is basically instance after instance of the country violating its democratic norms.

Jim characterizes the current state of our politics as "a kind of long-term coup," in undemocratic (if constitutional) means are pedantically employed (the grand uptick in filibuster, for instance) to radical ends. And yet this sent me back to thinking on the only coup d'etat in American history. It was barely 100 years ago.

11 erik_t  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:33:43pm

re: #9 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

That would be like Clarence Thomas recusing himself due to his wife's lobbying efforts against HCR. In other words, won't ever happen. But notice Kagan did in fact recuse herself from the Arizona case because of her work before it came to the court, in other words she has a bit of honor.

I don't think you can recuse yourself without speaking. That was sort of the nail in the coffin on any hopes of a Thomas recusal.

12 Kragar  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:45:58pm

Penn GOP leader gives away the game: Voter ID Will Help Romney Win State

In a not so shocking admission, Pennsylvania House Majority Leader Mike Turzai tells the truth behind the GOP Voter ID agenda.

“Pro-Second Amendment? The Castle Doctrine, it’s done. First pro-life legislation - abortion facility regulations - in 22 years, done. Voter ID, which is gonna allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania, done,” Turzai said at this weekend’s Republican State Committee meeting , according to PoliticsPA.com.

13 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:49:19pm

re: #12 Kragar

they aren't even pretending any more.

14 AK-47%  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:49:24pm

re: #12 Kragar

This is a bit like the immigration issue: we can end voter, residence and any similar sort of fraud by issuing a national ID card for all citizens, and another one for legal resident non-citizens.

The ID card would be a valid voter ID for citizens, as well as proof of residence for registering a child in school, opening a bank account, registering a car, signing a lease or buying property.

It would end the patchwork of often discriminatory legislation being passed to "solve" current problems with voter registartion and immigration.

Any takers out there?

15 simoom  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:49:33pm

From an interview last year w/ Justice Scalia:

[Link: blogs.wsj.com...]

First, Massey asks Scalia about the 14th Amendment, whether its equal protection clause applies to sex discrimination or sexual-orientation. Asks Massey: “Does that mean that we’ve gone off in error by applying the 14th Amendment to both?” Answers Scalia:

Yes, yes. Sorry, to tell you that. … But, you know, if indeed the current society has come to different views, that’s fine. You do not need the Constitution to reflect the wishes of the current society. Certainly the Constitution does not require discrimination on the basis of sex. The only issue is whether it prohibits it. It doesn’t. Nobody ever thought that that’s what it meant. Nobody ever voted for that. If the current society wants to outlaw discrimination by sex, hey we have things called legislatures, and they enact things called laws. . . .

But the serious money quote comes a bit later in the interview, in response to a question Massey asks about how Scalia applies his notion of originalism when the original meaning of a constitutional section “is either in doubt or is unknown.”

Answers Scalia:

"I do not pretend that originalism is perfect. … We don’t have the answer to everything, but by God we have an answer to a lot of stuff … especially the most controversial: whether the death penalty is unconstitutional, whether there’s a constitutional right to abortion, to suicide, and I could go on. All the most controversial stuff. … I don’t even have to read the briefs, for Pete’s sake."

Let us repeat that last sentence, for emphasis, in case any Supreme Court litigants are reading: “All the most controversial stuff. … I don’t even have to read the briefs, for Pete’s sake.”

16 Kragar  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:50:40pm

re: #14 Expand Your Ground

This is a bit like the immigration issue: we can end voter, residence and any similar sort of fraud by issuing a national ID card for all citizens, and another one for legal resident non-citizens.

The ID card would be a valid voter ID for citizens, as well as proof of residence for registering a child in school, opening a bank account, registering a car, signing a lease or buying property.

It would end the patchwork of often discriminatory legislation being passed to "solve" current problems with voter registartion and immigration.

Any takers out there?

A NATIONAL ID CARD IS BIG GOVERNMENT TAKING OVER! STATES RIGHTS!11!1! BLACK EPA DRONES LEAVING CHEMTRAILS!1!11!

17 dragonath  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:51:16pm
18 HappyWarrior  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:51:41pm

re: #15 simoom

From an interview last year w/ Justice Scalia:

[Link: blogs.wsj.com...]

But the serious money quote comes a bit later in the interview, in response to a question Massey asks about how Scalia applies his notion of originalism when the original meaning of a constitutional section “is either in doubt or is unknown.”

Answers Scalia:

Let us repeat that last sentence, for emphasis, in case any Supreme Court litigants are reading: “All the most controversial stuff. … I don’t even have to read the briefs, for Pete’s sake.”

There's the model conservative justice in action again. Nice to know Justice Scalia is so cavalier about stuff that impacts real people. That's something that I would expect out of Thomas. Seems Scalia is no better.

19 HappyWarrior  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:52:59pm

re: #12 Kragar

Penn GOP leader gives away the game: Voter ID Will Help Romney Win State

In a not so shocking admission, Pennsylvania House Majority Leader Mike Turzai tells the truth behind the GOP Voter ID agenda.

It's nice to know that GOP leaders are honest about tactics like this being a benefit to their party/

20 mr.fusion  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:53:05pm

If you think this is bad just wait until we see, what is hopefully the minority opinion, on the health care reform law

21 RadicalModerate  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:53:20pm

Keep in mind this is the same Republican Party who, at the last US Supreme Court vacancy, tried to get the impeached Alabama Supreme Court justice Roy Moore drafted as a nominee for the nation's highest court.

22 HappyWarrior  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:53:57pm

re: #21 RadicalModerate

Keep in mind this is the same Republican Party who, at the last US Supreme Court vacancy, tried to get the impeached Alabama Supreme Court justice Roy Moore drafted as a nominee for the nation's highest court.

They seriously wanted him for the USSC? Did not know that. Yikes.

23 Kragar  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:54:32pm

re: #17 Be Zorch, Daddio

Pennsylvania GOP Leader: Voter ID Will Help Romney Win State

Oh wow Dammit Kragar got there first

24 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:55:08pm

re: #7 Be Zorch, Daddio

Reagan of course 'solved" **cough** this issue with his immediate amnesty and strong enforcement to come later. Which essentially never happened. Employers are never jailed and almost never fined for hiring those who do not have work visas instead of those immigrants who do.

[Link: www.ontheissues.org...]

1986 reform legalized 3 million undocumented immigrants
We have already been burned once by false promises of border security in exchange for tying security to other aspects of the immigration debate. President Reagan, in 1986, signed the Immigration Reform and Control Act, which legalized close to 3 million undocumented immigrants. The laws was supposed to be a comprehensive solution with provisions intended to clamp down on border security. These provisions were never enforced, and the subsequent explosion in illegal crossings has resulted in some 11 million illegal aliens living in the United States today. An estimated 1.8 million illegal immigrants are currently residing in Texas, compared with 1.1 million in 2000. In ten years, that represents an increase of 54 percent, or 70,000 persons each year coming to our state illegally.
Source: Fed Up!, by Gov. Rick Perry, p.120 , Nov 15, 2010

1986: One-time amnesty for illegal aliens
In 1986 I voted for the Simpson-Mazzoli immigration bill because we were told it would solve the problem of massive illegal immigration. In his diaries, President Ronald Reagan said he was going to sign the bill because we had to regain control of our borders. The Simpson-Mazzoli bill contained three promises:

The government would make a concerted effort to control the borders.
An effective employer verification program would ensure that only legal workers were hired.
One-time amnesty would be granted for people illegally in the United States.

All three promises were broken. The government has made no serious effort to control our borders. Employers continue knowingly to hire illegal immigrants without any real fear of punishment.
Source: Real Change, by Newt Gingrich, p.126 , Dec 18, 2007

Allow free movement of people from Mexico & Canada
Reagan himself was a dreamer, capable of imagining a world without trade barriers. In announcing his presidential candidacy in Nov. 1979, he had proposed a “North American accord” in which commerce & people would move freely across the borders of Canada & Mexico. This idea, largely overlooked or dismissed as a campaign gimmick in the US, rankled nationalist sensibilities in the neighboring nations. But Reagan was serious in his proposal. Though he traveled only once outside the North American continent during his first 57 years, he was neither insular nor isolationist. California has windows to the world in Asia, and Reagan thought of the US as a Pacific power as well as an Atlantic one. He also had a Californian’s consciousness of Mexico and an actor’s appreciation of Canadians, who are well-represented in the film community. The dream of a North American accord would drive the successful pursuit of a US-Canadian free trade agreement and a future-oriented “framework” trade agreement with Mexico

25 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:55:24pm

re: #20 mr.fusion

If you think this is bad just wait until we see, what is hopefully the minority opinion, on the health care reform law

yeah, given what scholars and experts are saying, as well as precedent, if they strike down HCR, or even parts of it, on a 5-4 line it's pretty much the end of the charade that the court is an impartial arbiter of justice. Or I should say it's the end of the charade the media sees. Those who have watched the court in action, not just on items like citizens united, know it's really just a show at this point.

26 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:55:59pm

re: #19 HappyWarrior

It's nice to know that GOP leaders are honest about tactics like this being a benefit to their party/

Wait until you meet one of the types that are actively proud of using dirty tricks to win. The rhetoric...such as there is...being, "what we can get away with is a sign of our cunning and thus our right to rule."

They're out there.

27 simoom  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:57:37pm

re: #12 Kragar

Sounds like the Spkr. of the House in my state, who also made the electoral calculus argument, in arguing for his restrictive student ID law:

[Link: www.politico.com...]

New Hampshire House Speaker William O’Brien, a Republican, told a tea party group that allowing people to register and vote on Election Day led to “the kids coming out of the schools and basically doing what I did when I was a kid, which is voting as a liberal. That’s what kids do — they don’t have life experience, and they just vote their feelings.”

Our Dem Gov. just vetoed their voter id bill, yet again, a few days ago.

28 RadicalModerate  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:59:06pm

re: #22 HappyWarrior

They seriously wanted him for the USSC? Did not know that. Yikes.

What's worse, is that he is likely going to be re-seated as Alabama Supreme Court's Chief Justice - and this is after he has been channeling individuals like Pamela Geller.

‘Ten Commandments’ Judge Roy Moore: Secularism leads to Sharia law

29 kirkspencer  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 12:59:41pm

re: #18 HappyWarrior

There's the model conservative justice in action again. Nice to know Justice Scalia is so cavalier about stuff that impacts real people. That's something that I would expect out of Thomas. Seems Scalia is no better.

I sometimes read supreme court opinions - most are surprisingly readable once you master a few bits of legal jargon. I noticed a change in Scalia's decisions starting about a decade ago - somewhere midway through the prior administration, but I don't recall exactly when. Prior to that even when I disagreed with his decisions I could admire how they built solidly on precedence, bringing in opinion only as a final polish to the existing foundation. Now, it obviously starts with the opinion. In some cases he doesn't even finish the foundation, instead allowing the shadows from his biases to act in the stead of precedence.

His speaking (look at youtubes for examples) has changed in the same way. He's still often sharp and witty, but fares poorly in comparison to the Scalia of fifteen years ago. And he's suffered occasional bobbles in speech and manner that never happened back then.

I have openly and honestly expressed the opinion that he's had a mental problem - a stroke, or the leading edges of dementia, or something. It worries me given his pivotal position.

30 Targetpractice  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:00:26pm

Well gee, that was fun. Notice wet spot in house, wonder what it is.

Plumbing? No. And it's sunny outside, so it can't be a roof leak.

No, the drain pipes for the A/C's condensation pan have clogged up, causing water to leak into the house. Joy. Thankfully, it's something that can be fixed (at least temporarily) with a wet/dry vac.

31 AK-47%  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:00:48pm

re: #28 RadicalModerate

What's worse, is that he is likely going to be re-seated as Alabama Supreme Court's Chief Justice - and this is after he has been channeling individuals like Pamela Geller.

‘Ten Commandments’ Judge Roy Moore: Secularism leads to Sharia law

His God or their God. Your choice.

32 Kragar  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:02:54pm

re: #31 Expand Your Ground

His God or their God. Your choice.

Once again, I will opt for the giant space squid theory.

33 HappyWarrior  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:05:17pm

re: #28 RadicalModerate

What's worse, is that he is likely going to be re-seated as Alabama Supreme Court's Chief Justice - and this is after he has been channeling individuals like Pamela Geller.

‘Ten Commandments’ Judge Roy Moore: Secularism leads to Sharia law

I see he's pulling a pge from the Gingrich book re: Secularism leads to Sharia law. How anyone says that with a straight face amazes me. Weakening the wall of separation as Jefferson called it is what would lead to Sharia rather than making the state more secular. I bet Roy Moore is convinced that Shariah allows for gay marriage.

34 RadicalModerate  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:06:22pm

re: #31 Expand Your Ground

His God or their God. Your choice.

If you read the interview, he's already saying that he is going to do the exact same things if re-seated that got him removed from the court the first time.

What I don't understand, is if a judge is removed from the highest court for blatant (to the point of criminal) disregard of the Constitution, shouldn't that disqualify him from EVER holding that seat again?

35 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:06:46pm

This much is true, on top of very broad use of the commerce clause, and the lefts ongoing insistence that states do not have rights... That is an oft heard contention states rights are anathema to our culture.

I wish I could disagree with the following bold, but I can not.

“[T]o say, as the Court does, that Arizona contradicts federal law by enforcing applications of the Immigration Act that the President declines to enforce boggles the mind,” Scalia wrote. “If securing its territory in this fashion is not within the power of Arizona, we should cease referring to it as a sovereign State.”

36 dragonath  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:08:05pm

re: #31 Expand Your Ground

37 erik_t  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:10:07pm

OT, this is why we pay for government.

The technical report is, if you're mechanically minded, super fucking fascinating.

I can't wait to buy one.

38 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:10:50pm

Man, these threads are coming fast and furious.

It's too much for a Monday!

LOL

39 RadicalModerate  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:11:15pm

CNN is now reporting that the US Supreme Court's ruling on President Obama's health care reforms will be handed down on Thursday.

It's gonna be a fun week.

40 simoom  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:12:24pm

Scalia and Thomas were also the two Justices, that we know of, who attended past, secretive Koch fundraising & electoral strategy gatherings.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Likely it was also subsidized by the Federalist Society, as that was the case for Justice Thomas:

In his financial disclosure report for that year, however, Justice Thomas reported that the Federalist Society, a prominent conservative legal group, had reimbursed him an undisclosed amount for four days of “transportation, meals and accommodations” over the weekend of the retreat.

41 HappyWarrior  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:12:37pm

re: #39 RadicalModerate

CNN is now reporting that the US Supreme Court's ruling on President Obama's health care reforms will be handed down on Thursday.

It's gonna be a fun week.

That quickly huh. Should be interesting to see how both sides respond. The mandate being overturned may end up as a Pyrrhic victory for the right.

42 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:13:01pm

Aren't the 10 Commandments, technically, part of Sharia as well?

43 HappyWarrior  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:13:34pm

re: #40 simoom

Scalia and Thomas were also the two Justices, that we know of, who attended past, secretive Koch fundraising & electoral strategy gatherings.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Likely it was also subsidized by the Federalist Society, as that was the case for Justice Thomas:

Can you imagine if two of the court's more liberal stalwarts did the same?

44 AK-47%  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:13:37pm

re: #37 erik_t

typical government boondoogle, links do not work

45 freetoken  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:13:53pm

re: #35 Daniel Ballard

What Scalia won't address, in part because it is not his job to do so from the bench, but also probably because his own position on this issue is clouded with tangential issues from the bigger view of law and morality, are the specifics of what is happening in Arizona as far as society, and the morality (or lack thereof) behind the creation and execution of bills like SB1070.

That the AZ law was birthed out of the venom of a known racist person/group, and that it puts on paper only the beginning of a very ugly turn in AZ political/legislative life, ought to be a concern of anyone who cares about life in these United States.

But Scalia is blind to this, for good or bad. His concern over the "sovereignty" of AZ is misplaced, IMO.

46 garhighway  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:14:07pm

re: #35 Daniel Ballard

This much is true, on top of very broad use of the commerce clause, and the lefts ongoing insistence that states do not have rights... That is an oft heard contention states rights are anathema to our culture.

I wish I could disagree with the following bold, but I can not.

“[T]o say, as the Court does, that Arizona contradicts federal law by enforcing applications of the Immigration Act that the President declines to enforce boggles the mind,” Scalia wrote. “If securing its territory in this fashion is not within the power of Arizona, we should cease referring to it as a sovereign State.”

We should cease calling them that. Because they aren't sovereign, any more than towns or counties are.

Can they issue money? Can they impose tarriffs? Do they enter into treaties? No, no and no. They aren't countries.

47 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:14:56pm

re: #42 ggt

Aren't the 10 Commandments, technically, part of Sharia as well?

Yup
Islam Supports Bible’s TEN Commandments

48 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:14:57pm

re: #39 RadicalModerate

I'll bet a Chimay that the mandate goes down, the rest is left alive.

49 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:15:01pm

Jerry Sandusky on suicide watch.

cry me a river . . .

/gah*spit*

50 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:15:41pm

re: #47 Killgore Trout

Yup
Islam Supports Bible’s TEN Commandments

Thanks, just wanted to make sure I hadn't become that confused.

51 freetoken  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:15:59pm

The Confederacy wanted states to be "sovereign".

52 dragonath  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:16:35pm

re: #33 HappyWarrior

"Wallbuilders" is a really unfortunate name for a bunch of constitutionally opposed theocrats.

Building walls between people, maybe.

53 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:16:41pm

re: #45 freetoken

But this ruling has little to do with the specifics of Az, if another border state enforced Federal immigration law to the letter, but far more often, they too could be pushed back by this very ruling.

54 HappyWarrior  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:16:51pm

re: #49 ggt

Jerry Sandusky on suicide watch.

cry me a river . . .

/gah*spit*

I'm not surprised. Guy would definitely be targeted in prison because of his notoriety and who his victims were.

55 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:17:40pm

re: #35 Daniel Ballard

This much is true, on top of very broad use of the commerce clause, and the lefts ongoing insistence that states do not have rights... That is an oft heard contention states rights are anathema to our culture.

I wish I could disagree with the following bold, but I can not.

“[T]o say, as the Court does, that Arizona contradicts federal law by enforcing applications of the Immigration Act that the President declines to enforce boggles the mind,” Scalia wrote. “If securing its territory in this fashion is not within the power of Arizona, we should cease referring to it as a sovereign State.”

What if the sovereign state of Arizona decided to disenfranchise the thousands of Native Americans who live there on reservations, in the name of securing its territory?

56 AK-47%  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:17:52pm

re: #54 HappyWarrior

I'm not surprised. Guy would definitely be targeted in prison because of his notoriety and who his victims were.

Would be a shame if he were molested and nobody reported it to the proper authorities...

57 freetoken  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:18:26pm

re: #53 Daniel Ballard

But the case that was brought before the USSC was explicitly about AZ SB1070. That other circumstances in other states with variations on this kind of law may require the USSC to revisit this issue is probable.

58 HappyWarrior  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:18:27pm

re: #52 Be Zorch, Daddio

"Wallbuilders" is a really unfortunate name for a bunch of constiutionally opposed theocrats.

Building walls between people, maybe.

Honestly, it scares me to see a vocal number of people who think separation of church and state is somehow a bad thing. It's that very fact that made this such an inviting country to many in the first place.

59 Kragar  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:18:35pm

re: #49 ggt

Jerry Sandusky on suicide watch.

cry me a river . . .

/gah*spit*

I'd watch him do that.

Oh wait, thats not what they meant. Nevermind.

60 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:19:30pm

re: #45 freetoken

That the AZ law was birthed out of the venom of a known racist person/group, and that it puts on paper only the beginning of a very ugly turn in AZ political/legislative life, ought to be a concern of anyone who cares about life in these United States..

Don't forget the structure of penalties and detainment within SB1070 was also a giant wet kiss to private prisons. Because it's always a good idea to let incarceration penalty standards be set by an interested party that gets paid, from government coffers, by the head.

61 celticdragon  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:19:56pm

So here we go with the countdown to tomorrow and the probable shedding of any pretense that the SCOTUS is actually a neutral player. The Roberts Court is here for a long time to come, and Roberts et alia intend to stamp radical corporate plutonomy onto every single one of us for the rest of our (measured in profitability) lives.

If we were going to be stuck with the nightmare Blade Runner future, then at least we could have been given the cool flying spinner cars.

62 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:20:35pm

re: #61 celticdragon

So here we go with the countdown to tomorrow and the probable shedding of any pretense that the SCOTUS is actually a neutral player. The Roberts Court is here for a long time to come, and Roberts et alia intend to stamp radical corporate plutonomy onto every single one of us for the rest of our (measured in profitability) lives.

If we were going to be stuck with the nightmare Blade Runner future, then at least we could have been given the cool flying spinner cars.

I thought everyone wanted the hover boards from Back to the Future. no?

63 freetoken  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:22:01pm

re: #61 celticdragon

The problem could easily be resolved with a Constitutional amendment. Yet with the current makeup of the legislatures of the 50 states it is unlikely that the needed amendment could get the required number passed.

64 celticdragon  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:23:35pm

re: #56 Expand Your Ground

Would be a shame if he were molested and nobody reported it to the proper authorities...

Prison rape jokes have long been accepted in this country, but we should really be doing a lot more to stamp out prison rape. Sandusky will probably have to be confined in Admin segregation because he is a high profile prisoner who would be at significant risk of murder in the general population. Putting him somewhere where he is likely to be harmed or killed is still a violation of the 8th Amendment. Pity he didn't have the same consideration for his own victims.

65 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:25:02pm

re: #64 celticdragon

Prison rape jokes have long been accepted in this country, but we should really be doing a lot more to stamp out prison rape. Sandusky will probably have to be confined in Admin segregation because he is a high profile prisoner who would be at significant risk of murder in the general population. Putting him somewhere where he is likely to be harmed or killed is still a violation of the 8th Amendment. Pity he didn't have the same consideration for his own victims.

Yes, there were several Pages Postings a while back. Seems most of the rape is done by guards . . . . .

66 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:25:28pm

re: #46 garhighway

You poorly define sovereign in the context of the states. They can and do tax. They can and do pass all kinds of laws from commercial, to safety to criminal. They can and do make agreements with other states, treaties in a way.

They can not make a rule enforcing cleaner gasoline only however. That violated the commerce clause despite the environmental advantages of the law.
[Link: www.greencarcongress.com...]

67 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:26:16pm

re: #66 Daniel Ballard

You poorly define sovereign in the context of the states. They can and do tax. They can and do pass all kinds of laws from commercial, to safety to criminal. They can and do make agreements with other states, treaties in a way.

They can not make a rule enforcing cleaner gasoline only however. That violated the commerce clause despite the environmental advantages of the law.
[Link: www.greencarcongress.com...]

Wouldn't a sovereign state coin it's own money? technically?

68 AK-47%  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:27:03pm

re: #64 celticdragon

Prison rape jokes have long been accepted in this country, but we should really be doing a lot more to stamp out prison rape.

It would be seen as a form of "coddling prisoners". Fear of gang rape is considered one of the deterrents that is supposed to keep people from committing crimes that might get them into prison...

69 danarchy  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:27:49pm

re: #67 ggt

Wouldn't a sovereign state coin it's own money? technically?

By this measure, none of the countries in the eurozone would be considered sovereign any more.

70 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:28:00pm

re: #67 ggt

Wouldn't a sovereign state coin it's own money? technically?

Yes. And enter into treaties with other countries, etc. Our states are not sovereign.

71 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:28:02pm
72 Bulworth  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:28:21pm

re: #46 garhighway

We should cease calling them that. Because they aren't sovereign, any more than towns or counties are.

Can they issue money? Can they impose tarriffs? Do they enter into treaties? No, no and no. They aren't countries.

I too thought the "sovereign" reference a bit odd. A dog whistle to the Tenthers out there. But you've absolutely hit the argument on the head. These "sovereign" states can't issue money or impose tariffs or enter into treaties. Certainly the SCOTUS doesn't believe a state is sovereign enough to, for example, restrict corporate donations to political campaigns.

73 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:28:37pm

re: #55 wrenchwench

What if they repeal gravity?

What if California and other border states could actually strictly enforce the Federal immigration laws?

They can't. They should. With the same due process for any other law.

74 celticdragon  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:28:41pm

re: #63 freetoken

The problem could easily be resolved with a Constitutional amendment. Yet with the current makeup of the legislatures of the 50 states it is unlikely that the needed amendment could get the required number passed.

That kinda negates the whole "easily" thing.

Also, most Constitutional scholars (an overwhelming majority) think that the ACA is perfectly Constitutional as is. The individual mandate was proposed by the Heritage Foundation (!) fer Chrisakes, and virtually every GOP senior party member had endorsed it back in the 90's. It only became "unconstitutional death panels FREEDOM!!!11ty!" when the black guy with the funny name got elected. The fact that the SCOTUS appears ready to throw out the ACA based on nothing more than Fox News talking points tells you that even amending the Constitution may not help in this case if the judges no longer give a shit what the document says.

75 erik_t  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:29:02pm

re: #37 erik_t

OT, this is why we pay for government.

The technical report is, if you're mechanically minded, super fucking fascinating.

I can't wait to buy one.

re: #44 Expand Your Ground

typical government boondoogle, links do not work

Grumble grumble. They both need an 'https' appended to the front of them, but LGF seems to filter that out. Copy-and-paste doesn't work either. Let's see about tinyurl...

Try again.

76 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:29:06pm

re: #31 Expand Your Ground

His God or their God. Your choice.

I know. Why can they not see that for many "neither" is the choice?

77 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:29:53pm

re: #76 RayFerd

I know. Why can they not see that for many "neither" is the choice?

My god, what about MY GOD?

78 Kragar  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:30:25pm

re: #68 Expand Your Ground

It would be seen as a form of "coddling prisoners". Fear of gang rape is considered one of the deterrents that is supposed to keep people from committing crimes that might get them into prison...

79 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:30:41pm

re: #73 Daniel Ballard

What if California and other border states could actually strictly enforce the Federal immigration laws?

They can't. They should. With the same due process for any other law.

Yes they can. They just can't pretend they're the federal government when they do it.

80 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:31:44pm
81 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:32:02pm

re: #79 Obdicut

So none of the states are sovereign. Quick lets remove all those state laws and erase the state borders. They are just quaint reminders of slavery days right?

/// (Not enough sarc tags)

82 AK-47%  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:32:14pm

re: #76 RayFerd

I know. Why can they not see that for many "neither" is the choice?

Because they believe that "neither" leads to their god. Remember Newt going on about a "secularist Islamist state"?

He means that there are people who hate and reject Christianity and would be willing to accept Sharia just to annoy the Christians, whom they despise to the point of cutting off their own noses to spite their face..

83 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:32:43pm

re: #73 Daniel Ballard

What if they repeal gravity?

Don't take my example too lightly.

Even Native Americans who were granted citizenship rights under the 1924 Act, may not have had full citizenship and suffrage rights until 1948. According to a survey by the Department of Interior, seven states still refused to grant Indians voting rights in 1938. Discrepancies between federal and state control provided loopholes in the Act’s enforcement. States justified discrimination based on state statutes and constitutions. Three main arguments for Indian voting exclusion were Indian exemption from real estate taxes, maintenance of tribal affiliation and the mistaken notion that Indians were under guardianship, or lived on lands controlled by federal trusteeship (Peterson 121). By 1947 all states with large Indian populations, except Arizona and New Mexico, had extended voting rights to Native Americans who qualified under the 1924 Act. Finally, in 1948 these states withdrew their prohibition on Indian voting because of a judicial decision (Bruyneel).

...

What if California and other border states could actually strictly enforce the Federal immigration laws?

They can't. They should. With the same due process for any other law.

Why should a state enforce federal laws? They are not trained and supervised to do so, with the exception of Section 287 g, which is being scaled back because it's not effective.

84 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:32:53pm

re: #64 celticdragon

He'll be in AdSeg regardless of his notoriety because he is a convicted child rapists. Most prisons do not allow child rapists to be in gen. pop. because they are rightfully despised and even the most cold-hearted prisoner would shank one. Especially if they are never getting out anyway.

85 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:33:01pm

re: #35 Daniel Ballard

"...and the lefts ongoing insistence that states do not have rights..."

Really? "The left" insists that states do not have rights? Can you give some examples, let alone support such a broad claim?

Also, just curious - how did you feel about Bush v. Gore?

86 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:34:34pm

I tried posting this twice in previous threads (from the Bela Fleck video), but they got lost as Charles kept putting new threads up. I think it is worth sharing. So I will try again:

Ok, so I just finished watching the full documentary thru Amazon (free with Prime Membership). OMG! So worth watching even if you have to pay for it.

I had to pause several times to write this down:

"Those of you who can raise children,
You should Thank G-d.
Because many people produce children
But fail to raise them.

For me, my father didn't know
that he will leave one time.
Father, you should have been there
to see what I have done for the world.

Death has made us suffer.
Death is counting our ribs.
Death, which use to be for the chickens,
is now among us."

-Walusimbi Nsimbambi Haruna

87 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:35:30pm

re: #70 Obdicut

Yes. And enter into treaties with other countries, etc. Our states are not sovereign.

You have to go back to the Articles of Confederation to find something resembling a truly sovereign US State, and that arrangement was incredibly dysfunctional.

88 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:35:35pm

re: #85 Talking Point Detective

Really? "The left" insists that states do not have rights? Can you give some examples, let alone support such a broad claim?

Also, just curious - how did you feel about Bush v. Gore?

States, corporations, I can't keep up.

89 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:36:15pm

Seems that the esteemed member of the Court has forgotten that Congress is empowered to deal with naturalization under Art I, Sec. 8, while the 10th Amendment grants powers to states where the feds aren't acting or where they can act concurrently. States do not grant American citizenship, that is a power reserved in the federal government. The remaining powers regarding naturalization flow from Art I, Sec. 8. Because the President has chosen not to enforce a specific provision doesn't invalidate the remaining structure of immigration law and give states an opening to create mischief on their own.

Congress has still acted on the area, and that would preclude state action on the same point. The issue becomes one of executive powers and separation of powers, not federalism at that point.

90 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:37:15pm

Weren't the Virginian's rather attached to the concept of sovereignty at the time of the Revolution? Rather like Texas is today?

91 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:37:18pm

re: #87 goddamnedfrank

Or look across the Pond to Europe and see how they're trying to deal with sovereignty issues re: EU.

92 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:37:45pm

re: #81 Daniel Ballard

So none of the states are sovereign.

Yep. They're not sovereign. They can't make treaties with other governments, or make laws that violate federal law or the constitution.

Quick lets remove all those state laws and erase the state borders. They are just quaint reminders of slavery days right?

Er, no. You don't have to get rid of state laws, except the ones that violate the Constitution. However, yes, a lot of the use that state laws are put to are in attempts to violate civil rights, like laws against gays marrying, attempts to suppress voters, etc.

The Supreme Court just decided one state's laws, in part, violate the constitution. I'm not sure why this is now some watershed moment stripping states of some sanctified, er, state.

93 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:37:57pm

re: #89 lawhawk

Seems that the esteemed member of the Court has forgotten that Congress is empowered to deal with naturalization under Art I, Sec. 8, while the 10th Amendment grants powers to states where the feds aren't acting or where they can act concurrently. States do not grant American citizenship, that is a power reserved in the federal government. The remaining powers regarding naturalization flow from Art I, Sec. 8. Because the President has chosen not to enforce a specific provision doesn't invalidate the remaining structure of immigration law and give states an opening to create mischief on their own.

Congress has still acted on the area, and that would preclude state action on the same point. The issue becomes one of executive powers and separation of powers, not federalism at that point.

Some esteemed members here seem to have forgotten that stuff too.

94 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:39:10pm

Al-Qaeda-trained Norwegian planning to attack West

After converting to Islam in 2008, he quickly became radicalized and traveled to Yemen to receive terror training, one of the officials said. The man spent "some months" in Yemen and is still believed to be there, he said.

The official said the man has no criminal record, which would also make him an ideal recruit for al-Qaida.

"Not even a parking ticket," he said. "He's completely clean and he can travel anywhere."

"We believe he is operational and he is probably about to get his target," one official said. "And that target is probably in the West."

Another official said, "From what I understand, a specific target has not been established."

95 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:39:36pm

There seem to be people who want to be Kings. We have the 1% who are rich enough, Corporations who are powerful enough, and some politicians who want to create feudal lands out of their states.

Am I interpreting things correctly?

96 simoom  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:40:02pm

Romney spokesperson punts & disassembles on whether his candidate agrees with today's SCOTUS immigration ruling:

97 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:41:19pm

re: #88 ggt

States, corporations, I can't keep up.

You forgot Christians. Christians don't have rights either. I'm a leftist, I say so, and I speak for "the left."

98 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:41:54pm
99 Varek Raith  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:42:07pm

re: #81 Daniel Ballard

So none of the states are sovereign. Quick lets remove all those state laws and erase the state borders. They are just quaint reminders of slavery days right?

/// (Not enough sarc tags)

When you have to resort to hyperbole, you've got nothing.
Sorry.

100 HappyWarrior  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:42:23pm

re: #96 simoom

Romney spokesperson punts & disassembles on whether his candidate agrees with today's SCOTUS immigration ruling:

[Embedded content]

Can you say typical?

101 freetoken  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:45:05pm

re: #74 celticdragon

I thought you were referencing the CU issue, not the ACA issue.

102 ShaunP  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:47:24pm

This is horrible, but needs to be seen. I feel terribly for what these kids have to endure. Hopefully they are getting counseling too...

Survivors of the 2011 Norway attacks—Photos

Sad emoticon just doesn't seem appropriate...

103 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:48:54pm

re: #83 wrenchwench

You are right a state should not have to do that. But since the federal gov has done such a great job since the Reagan amnesty, they do have to. Since the corporate interests have kept employers from being fined or jailed for even the more egregious violations we have what we have.

Where the Feds fail, a border state must do as it can.

105 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:50:12pm

re: #102 ShaunP


Chilling, man. All there are left is straws to grasp at, like this guy who helped save others.

[Link: www.thedailybeast.com...]

Those poor kids.

106 freetoken  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:50:47pm
107 Varek Raith  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:50:51pm

re: #103 Daniel Ballard

You are right a state should not have to do that. But since the federal gov has done such a great job since the Reagan amnesty, they do have to. Since the corporate interests have kept employers from being fined or jailed for even the more egregious violations we have what we have.

Where the Feds fail, a border state must do as it can.

Unconstitutional.

108 dragonfire1981  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:51:02pm

re: #102 ShaunP

This is horrible, but needs to be seen. I feel terribly for what these kids have to endure. Hopefully they are getting counseling too...

Survivors of the 2011 Norway attacks—Photos

Sad emoticon just doesn't seem appropriate...

Self defense my sorry ass...

Breivik better be locked up for a long, long time.

109 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:51:42pm

re: #104 Kragar

With Gas Prices Expected To Drop Below $3, Republicans Suddenly Silent On Obama’s Role

Just saw that:

--snip--

Mitt Romney, March 18, 2012: “He gets full credit or blame for what’s happened in this economy, and what’s happened to gasoline prices under his watch, and what’s happened to our schools, and what’s happened to our military forces. All these things are his responsibility while he’s president.”

House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH), April 6, 2012: “The president holds the key to addressing the pain Ohioans are feeling at the gas pump and moving our nation away from its reliance on foreign energy. My question for the president is: what are you waiting for?”

Boehner, April 6, 2012: “The president’s own policies to date have made matters worse and driven up gas prices.”

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY), Feb. 28 2012: “This President will go to any length to drive up gas prices and pave the way for his ideological agenda.”

Sen. John Barrasso (R-WY), March 13, 2012: Obama is “fully responsible for what the American public is paying for gasoline.”

--snip--

110 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:51:43pm

re: #103 Daniel Ballard

Where the Feds fail, a border state must do as it can.

What's your logic behind that one? And what did the feds 'fail' at doing?

111 dragonfire1981  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:52:06pm

re: #104 Kragar

With Gas Prices Expected To Drop Below $3, Republicans Suddenly Silent On Obama’s Role

Romney's already making gas prices lower!! See how awesome he is?!

112 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:52:45pm

My favorite examples of a sovereign states law is the variations of the Firearms Freedom Act that's been passed by various states. Here are the first two sections of Idaho's statute:

18-3315A. PROHIBITION OF FEDERAL REGULATION OF CERTAIN FIREARMS. (1) As used in this section:
(a) "Borders of Idaho" means the boundaries of Idaho described in chapter 1, title 31, Idaho Code.
(b) "Firearms accessories" means items that are used in conjunction with or mounted upon a firearm but are not essential to the basic function of a firearm including, but not limited to, telescopic or laser sights, magazines, flash or sound suppressors, folding or aftermarket stocks and grips, speedloaders, ammunition, ammunition carriers and lights for target illumination.
(c) "Generic and insignificant parts" includes, but is not limited to, springs, screws, nuts and pins.
(d) "Manufactured" means that a firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition has been created from basic materials for functional usefulness including, but not limited to, forging, casting, machining or other processes for working materials.
(2) A personal firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition that is manufactured commercially or privately in Idaho and that remains within the borders of Idaho is not subject to federal law or federal regulation, including registration, under the authority of congress to regulate interstate commerce. It is declared by the legislature that those items have not traveled in interstate commerce. This section applies to a firearm, a firearm accessory or ammunition that is manufactured in Idaho from basic materials and that can be manufactured without the inclusion of any significant parts imported from another state.

See the bolded part, sound suppressors. Those are heavily regulated under the National Firearms Act. Idaho is saying that as long as a suppressor is manufactured in Idaho, stamped "made in Idaho" and never crosses state lines that Federal ATF agents are prohibited from enforcing Federal law with regards to illegal possession of it. In other words, the State is saying you don't need to purchase an ATF tax stamp, fill out their forms or go through a background check to either acquire over the counter or scratch build a suppressor.

There is a lawsuit winding it's way through the courts because Montana (I believe, could be wrong) preemptively sued the Federal government to see if their version of the FFA was constitutional. Otherwise I've heard of nothing in the way of an ATF crackdown or pushback, which is interesting.

113 HappyWarrior  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:53:02pm

re: #102 ShaunP

This is horrible, but needs to be seen. I feel terribly for what these kids have to endure. Hopefully they are getting counseling too...

Survivors of the 2011 Norway attacks—Photos

Sad emoticon just doesn't seem appropriate...

Just looking at those people gets me angry at those who like Glenn Beck who compared them to Hitler Youth members and suggested somehow they deserved it because of their ideology. Most heartbreaking was the girl who lost her arm. Brevik's a monster. I hope he never sees a day outside of prison for what he did.

114 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:53:31pm

re: #107 Varek Raith

Not necessarily

(thanks pencil)

115 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:55:50pm

re: #103 Daniel Ballard

You are right a state should not have to do that. But since the federal gov has done such a great job since the Reagan amnesty, they do have to. Since the corporate interests have kept employers from being fined or jailed for even the more egregious violations we have what we have.

Where the Feds fail, a border state must do as it can.

Obama has sent back more illegal aliens, by far, than any other president. The number of crossers is way down. The number of Border Patrol is way up. "Failure" by the Feds is a bogus right wing talking point, as far as border security goes. The failure to punish corporations that violate the law is a separate issue and should not be allowed to be used as an excuse to harass brown people in Arizona.

116 HappyWarrior  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:56:35pm

re: #109 Talking Point Detective

Just saw that:

So by their logic, they should give Obama credit for low gas prices. Not like that will happen but it's funny how it was all Obama's fault when gas prices were higher and then you'll see them refuse to give him or any of the policies he supports any credit when they're lower.

117 Varek Raith  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:56:48pm

re: #114 Daniel Ballard

No

States do not have the authority to enforce Federal laws any damn way they please. Just as they can't ignore them. What AZ did was go far beyond any Federal law.

118 Varek Raith  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:58:23pm

And when you consider who wrote SB1070....

119 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:58:27pm
120 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:58:42pm

re: #114 Daniel Ballard

No

Yes, on 3 of four points at SCOTUS. And only a tentative decision on the fourth one.

121 danarchy  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:01:27pm

re: #116 HappyWarrior

So by their logic, they should give Obama credit for low gas prices. Not like that will happen but it's funny how it was all Obama's fault when gas prices were higher and then you'll see them refuse to give him or any of the policies he supports any credit when they're lower.

While lower gas prices are certainly welcome news, I am not sure anyone should be scrambling to take credit for them as that would mean taking credit for a global economic slow down.

122 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:01:47pm
123 engineer cat  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:02:27pm

He accused federal officials of “willful blindness or deliberate inattention” to the presence of illegal immigrants

i accuse scalia of “willful blindness or deliberate inattention” to the presence of jobs for all these illegal immigrants

124 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:02:45pm

Is it over yet?

Can we just take a vote and decide it's Friday?

125 Kragar  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:06:06pm
126 teresa  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:06:16pm

It is interesting to note that Justice Scalia no longer believes in the law. He sounds like a cranky pants who spews Fox news talking points. At least he is no longer able hide under those blackrobes. He would do anything to support the ideological take over of the country. That fact is rather sickening. It does indicate it is time for him to leave the bench.

127 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:06:25pm

re: #122 wrenchwench

Schrödinger's Romney - Holds every position on every issue until pinned down for a vague opinion that manages to partially collapse the wave form.
/

128 gwangung  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:06:34pm

re: #103 Daniel Ballard

You are right a state should not have to do that. But since the federal gov has done such a great job since the Reagan amnesty, they do have to. Since the corporate interests have kept employers from being fined or jailed for even the more egregious violations we have what we have.

Where the Feds fail, a border state must do as it can.

Sorry, but that's just doesn't make sense.

Nothing stops states from fining the corporate interests. But they choose not to do so.

129 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:06:58pm

Occupy Members Plan Protest During President Obama’s Visit to Boston

Members of Occupy Boston have organized the anti-Obama event along Massachusetts Avenue, and will hold signs voicing their discontent with the Democratic elected official.

“People will be protesting different things,” said John Dwyer, member of Occupy Boston. “We want to send a message to the President and his supporters…the disgraceful acts of his administration are in no way acceptable.”

Dwyer said in a statement that he campaigned for Obama in 2008, but certain decisions carried out by the president and his administration over the years have changed his view.

“He promised a lot of things, and for a lot of people he still embodies these promises. But we can’t ignore the facts. Obama, like George W. Bush, has abused executive power to commit war crimes against the people of Iraq and Afghanistan,” said Dwyer.

Dwyer said Obama is also “a huge friend of Wall Street and the fossil fuel industry.”

According to the Facebook event page, the group will also be protesting war tactics such as “unmanned drones” and “kill lists.”

130 freetoken  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:07:00pm

re: #127 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

... but the cat is still dead.

131 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:07:54pm

re: #130 freetoken

... but the cat is still dead.

And the dog is still on the roof.

132 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:08:45pm

re: #130 freetoken

... but the cat is still dead.

Well, NOW it is.

133 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:08:48pm

re: #115 wrenchwench

It's a fail that dates to Reagan. Don't lump me in with the electioneers who see everything from a single cycle perspective. I'm old enough to have seen it as it unfolded. Fail after fail. Tyson Chicken-FAIL

Reagan-"One time" amnesty-Failed.

134 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:10:49pm

re: #133 Daniel Ballard

What would you consider a success?

135 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:11:11pm

Nom nom nom
Image: 610x.jpg

136 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:11:17pm

re: #133 Daniel Ballard

It's a fail that dates to Reagan. Don't lump me in with the electioneers who see everything from a single cycle perspective. I'm old enough to have seen it as it unfolded. Fail after fail. Tyson Chicken-FAIL

Reagan-"One time" amnesty-Failed.

Sure the fail is long term, but you fail to address the reversal of that failure under Obama. And you fail to address your apparent desire to harass brown people in Arizona as compensation for the inability to enforce laws on corporations.

137 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:13:06pm

re: #133 Daniel Ballard

It's a fail that dates to Reagan. Don't lump me in with the electioneers who see everything from a single cycle perspective. I'm old enough to have seen it as it unfolded. Fail after fail. Tyson Chicken-FAIL

Reagan-"One time" amnesty-Failed.

Maybe society should stop paying goddawful wages for rough work just so it can have cheap food and well manicured lawns.

Anyway it's only a generation or so away until we can both patrol the border and man the chicken processing lines with T-800 Terminators.

138 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:13:45pm

re: #135 Killgore Trout

Nom nom nom
Image: 610x.jpg

A waiter and partner at a restaurant near here refused to serve a brownie with ice cream to a customer because it was 'too many calories'.

139 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:15:55pm

re: #135 Killgore Trout

Nom nom nom
Image: 610x.jpg

UNH = Univ of New Hampshire I assume. Being a farming state I will presume that their agriculture program maintains a dairy herd which supplies the cream and milk for their own ice cream. Probably really good stuff.

(Penn State's Creamery had awesome ice cream, so I'm projecting that UNH could probably match it.)

140 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:15:57pm

re: #136 wrenchwench

Sure the fail is long term, but you fail to address the reversal of that failure under Obama. And you fail to address your apparent desire to harass brown people in Arizona as compensation for the inability to enforce laws on corporations.

I'm a tad annoyed too, but for me to point out that this isn't conducive to dialog means it's really not going to be taken well. Just sayin'.

141 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:16:02pm

Help me here.

Obama has deported more undocumented individuals than any previous POTUS. He is enforcing the law, that for so long people said wasn't enforced. -no?

This has highlighted the problems with said laws --no?

So instead of looking at the laws people are bitching at the POTUS. -

Am I getting this right?

It seems like such an endless twisted loop of controversy and misapplied emotional outrage I can't seem to see the facts.

142 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:16:49pm

re: #138 wrenchwench

A waiter and partner at a restaurant near here refused to serve a brownie with ice cream to a customer because it was 'too many calories'.

because he doesn't want to money serving his own inventory?

143 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:18:29pm

re: #136 wrenchwench

It's not a reversal it's a slight positive trend. "More than ever before' started with very small numbers. The economy is what has decreased crossings. Not the law.

144 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:18:45pm

re: #139 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

University of Connecticut's Creamery was awesome. Now it's in a newer, shinier building, and I've never been able to get in on my visits home.

145 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:19:09pm

re: #143 Daniel Ballard

Again: What would you consider a 'success' on immigration, since you consider the feds to have failed? What would they have to do to succeed?

146 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:20:37pm

re: #140 goddamnedfrank

I'm a tad annoyed too, but for me to point out that this isn't conducive to dialog means it's really not going to be taken well. Just sayin'.

Yeah, ok. Over the line. Sorry DB.

147 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:20:40pm

re: #143 Daniel Ballard

The economy is what has decreased crossings. Not the law.

And yet federal deportations are at record highs. Not exactly sure why you're ignoring this.

148 RadicalModerate  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:21:24pm

re: #118 Varek Raith

And when you consider who wrote SB1070...

Let's go down the list for (now-recalled) AZ Senate President Russell Pearce:

Ex-chief deputy to Sheriff Joe: check
Personal friend to now-dead neo-Nazi murderer J.T. Ready: check
Repeatedly appeared, and spoke (along with Arpaio) at WN rallies: check
Repeatedly quoted National Alliance articles in official correspondence: check
Son (along with Ready) recruited convicted murderer Shawna Forde into "Minutemen" armed militia: check

And Scalia AGREES with this racist slug.

149 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:21:25pm

re: #145 Obdicut

Again: What would you consider a 'success' on immigration, since you consider the feds to have failed? What would they have to do to succeed?

Ditch. Alligators with lasers mounted on their heads. Former East German officials with their jaws agape in sheer awe.
///

150 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:21:39pm

re: #143 Daniel Ballard

It's not a reversal it's a slight positive trend. "More than ever before' started with very small numbers. The economy is what has decreased crossings. Not the law.

So doubling the Border Patrol had no effect? Guess we can cut it in half then.

151 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:23:09pm

re: #136 wrenchwench

Sure the fail is long term, but you fail to address the reversal of that failure under Obama. And you fail to address your apparent desire to harass brown people in Arizona as compensation for the inability to enforce laws on corporations.

Why would I only harass ONLY brown people? I'd challenge (not necessarily deport, not without felony reason) undocumented aliens of any ethnic to step aside for those who did the paperwork and waited their turn.

A state and a nation have the responsibility together to throttle immigration for many reasons. Some are economic, some are to prevent exploitation. When we have a labor shortage make more work visas. With high unemployment the number should be cut.

152 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:23:39pm

re: #147 goddamnedfrank

Still small numbers, and not focused on felons as Obama requested.

153 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:23:44pm

Ok, so more deportations than ever --what is the result?

1) Detention Centers a/k/a black holes of human rights (Privately held, IIRC)
2) Broken Families
3) ???

what else?

154 erik_t  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:24:13pm

re: #151 Daniel Ballard

Why would I only harass ONLY brown people? I'd challenge (not necessarily deport, not without felony reason) undocumented aliens of any ethnic to step aside for those who did the paperwork and waited their turn.

A state and a nation have the responsibility together to throttle immigration for many reasons. Some are economic, some are to prevent exploitation. When we have a labor shortage make more work visas. With high unemployment the number should be cut.

How do you challenge people to show their papers without either racial profiling or horrifically inefficient and pointless challenging of everyone?

It's a fundamentally flawed idea. Would never happen; could never happen.

155 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:24:58pm

re: #150 wrenchwench

So doubling the Border Patrol had no effect? Guess we can cut it in half then.

Could be. Start fining employers. Jail the exploiters and those who recruit undocumented workers. The real failed borders are LAX and JFK anyway. Expired visas etc.

156 Varek Raith  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:25:00pm

What's an illegal Canadian look like anyways???
/

157 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:25:26pm

re: #156 Varek Raith

What's an illegal Canadian look like anyways???
/

The one without the firearm?

158 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:26:01pm

re: #154 erik_t

It's called an I-9 form, tax returns etc. Simple sensible ways. Cross check ss #'s and follow up.

159 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:26:06pm

re: #152 Daniel Ballard

Still small numbers, and not focused on felons as Obama requested.

400,000 per year, vs. half that under GW Bush.

What would you consider significant?

160 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:26:36pm

re: #155 Daniel Ballard

Are you going to ever define what you consider success and failure here? I mean, you're saying the states have the right/obligation to go it on their own since the Feds have failed. So in what way have they failed, and what would you consider a success?

161 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:26:39pm

re: #58 HappyWarrior

Honestly, it scares me to see a vocal number of people who think separation of church and state is somehow a bad thing. It's that very fact that made this such an inviting country to many in the first place.

Or their reaction if we decided to ignore that part of the constitution and mandate that everyone in the US will now be Mormon.

162 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:26:44pm

re: #159 wrenchwench

400,000 per year, vs. half that under GW Bush.

What would you consider significant?

all 12M?

163 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:28:22pm

re: #151 Daniel Ballard

Why would I only harass ONLY brown people? I'd challenge (not necessarily deport, not without felony reason) undocumented aliens of any ethnic to step aside for those who did the paperwork and waited their turn.

A state and a nation have the responsibility together to throttle immigration for many reasons. Some are economic, some are to prevent exploitation. When we have a labor shortage make more work visas. With high unemployment the number should be cut.

If you let AZ do what it wants to do, and defend it by calling them 'sovereign', you are allowing them to do what they do, which is harass brown people., You have to acknowledge real world results or be permanently mystified by reality.

164 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:29:00pm

re: #162 ggt

all 12M?

We won't know until he tells us.

165 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:29:09pm

re: #153 ggt

Ok, so more deportations than ever --what is the result?

1) Detention Centers a/k/a black holes of human rights (Privately held, IIRC)
2) Broken Families
3) ???

what else?

Seriously? has it made one bit of measurable difference in any social ill? Any real economic impact other than costing the government money and giving the detention centers income?

166 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:30:42pm

re: #160 Obdicut

This is not success.

Maybe about this-When employers get fined, most felons get deported immediately after jail and those who are working illegally are less than 1/5th of the legal immigrant work force.

I hurry to point out we should be issuing far more work visas. But that is another discussion.

167 erik_t  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:31:28pm

If you don't know what you're trying to achieve, your methods are limited to throwing shit at a wall and seeing what you get. Not a very good way to make policy.

168 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:32:47pm

re: #162 ggt

all 12M?

Instantly, via teleportation beam. Anything less means our enemies have won.

169 gwangung  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:33:23pm

re: #143 Daniel Ballard

Doesn't that suggest the proper mode for a solution?

170 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:33:35pm

What do the naysayers want --more funds to the entities deporting people so they can deport more?

WTF?

We pay either way. I don't see any economic benefit. I don't see less crime, I don't see less inmate population. I don't see more jobs.

What exactly is supposed to be the benefit?

Some whackes sense of American Ethnic Purity? America only for Americans?

I would love to see a definition of "American Ethnicity"

171 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:34:14pm

re: #166 Daniel Ballard

This is not success.

Yeah, I get that you feel that way.

Maybe about this-When employers get fined, most felons get deported immediately after jail and those who are working illegally are less than 1/5th of the legal immigrant work force.

I'd love for us to open up more immigration slots to help with shrinking the number of illegal immigrants working those jobs. Is that what you mean?

I hurry to point out we should be issuing far more work visas. But that is another discussion.

Oh, just work visas? Why not actual citizens? If you trust 'em to come here, live, and work a job, why not to be a US citizen?

Anyway, how was Arizona's law supposed to help solve any of this?

172 gwangung  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:34:52pm

re: #166 Daniel Ballard

I note that this is quite doable at the state level.

What kind of federal failure are we talking about here?

173 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:38:56pm

re: #166 Daniel Ballard

I hurry to point out we should be issuing far more work visas. But that is another discussion.

You hurry to point it out because it's an inextricably linked discussion. You can't solve a demand problem with a supply sided solution.

174 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:39:19pm

Bodies of 3 illegal crossers found in S. Ariz. desert

Border Patrol agents say the bodies of three suspected illegal immigrants have been recovered in southern Arizona.

Authorities say the three likely died from exposure to the triple-digit desert temperatures.

Agents say the three victims were found in separate incidents Saturday.

Casa Grande Station agents working near Sells located a pregnant female sitting with her deceased husband. The Guatemalan couple had crossed the border two days earlier and had been abandoned by their smuggler when the husband collapsed.

Later in the day, agents from the Tucson Sector located the remains of a man near Queens Well who appeared to be in his 70s.

Ajo Station agents on Saturday night located another deceased man northwest of Lukeville. The man in his 30s was naked in an apparent attempt to cool down.

That's what I call failure.

175 RadicalModerate  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:40:01pm

re: #170 ggt

What do the naysayers want --more funds to the entities deporting people so they can deport more?

WTF?

We pay either way. I don't see any economic benefit. I don't see less crime, I don't see less inmate population. I don't see more jobs.

What exactly is supposed to be the benefit?

Some whackes sense of American Ethnic Purity? America only for Americans?

I would love to see a definition of "American Ethnicity"

I'm still waiting to see how they are planning on mass-identification and deportation of all 12M undocumented immigrants without violating the Constitutional rights (specifically the 4th, 5th, 6th, 9th, and 14th Amendments) of pretty much every non-white resident (and even a few of those as well) of the United States.

176 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:44:51pm

re: #175 RadicalModerate

I'm still waiting to see how they are planning on mass-identification and deportation of all 12M undocumented immigrants without violating the Constitutional rights (specifically the 4th, 5th, 6th, 9th, and 14th Amendments) of pretty much every non-white resident (and even a few of those as well) of the United States.

Not going to happen. First, it's totally unworkable and 2nd, it looks too much like Stalin.

We have have to accept that the world is an open one and adjust ourselves to it.

Brave New World is here.

177 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:45:01pm

re: #171 Obdicut

So I take it you are proud of the status quo?

I see this epic stupid (as in Federal gov policy stupid) catch-22

Too many illegal workers. So, too few work visas coupled with inadequate enforcement for decades. Which in a great economy gets us more illegal workers. Break the cycle- Real fines for employers who hire illegal workers. Real penalties for their corporations right from the checking account. But that won't be allowed, not with the unholy alliance of corporate interests and this congress/admin. Or the last one. Or the one before that.

I think I'll have enough posts on this without also getting into citizenship. Right now I'll stay focused on the work/economic issues. But thanks anyway.

178 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:46:28pm

Bush II had it right with his idea of the Guest Worker Program. It's the only workable solution.

both sides need to get over their power play against each other and find a way to implement it.

Obama did a good start with the young people. I'd love to see it expanded.

179 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:47:13pm

re: #177 Daniel Ballard

So I take it you are proud of the status quo?

Why would you 'take' that? Given that I haven't said anything that remotely amounts to that, isn't that a strange thing to think?

I think I'll have enough posts on this without also getting into citizenship. Right now I'll stay focused on the work/economic issues. But thanks anyway.

You're welcome. However, dodging the issue will not make it go away. If we need more workers in this country, it's better that they be citizens than foreign nationals, for any number of reasons.

You can't talk about immigration without talking about citizenship as well. I'm not sure why you think you can just parse that out of the conversation, but I'm also not sure why you've decided I love the status quo.

180 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:49:07pm

My Mom and Stepdad are severely Republican. Not social cons, just very well to do, deliberately obtuse and incredibly self centered people. Last time they were here the subject of their lawn guy / landscaper came up, and the fact that they're "pretty sure" he's an illegal along with his entire family business. They don't live in AZ but the subject has come up and we're talking about staunch SB1070 supporters here, yet when it comes to saving them some money they're happy to play DADT.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, a huge part of the problem is the cognitive dissonance and abject selfism that seems to go hand in hand with modern conservatism.

181 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:49:27pm

re: #179 Obdicut

Okay would you define the failures we might agree on?

182 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:50:34pm

re: #181 Daniel Ballard

Okay would you define the failures we might agree on?

Illegal immigrants get exploited badly by asshole companies, far too many of them are paying taxes but getting no benefit. Solution: make more of them citizens, strongly enforce labor laws.

183 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:51:05pm

bbl

184 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:52:06pm

re: #179 Obdicut

You can't talk about immigration without talking about citizenship as well. I'm not sure why you think you can just parse that out of the conversation, but I'm also not sure why you've decided I love the status quo.

First things first. A student visa should not be an automatic citizenship. Nor a temporary work visa. Whats wrong with migrant workforces? They come and go with the work.

185 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:53:42pm

re: #184 Daniel Ballard

First things first. A student visa should not be an automatic citizenship. Nor a temporary work visa. Whats wrong with migrant workforces? They come and go with the work.

I didn't say they should be automatic citizenship. I said that we should make more people citizens.

What's wrong with having more US citizens, if there are jobs here for them to work?

186 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:54:17pm

re: #182 Obdicut

Why not jail the exploiters so we have little work available to the illegals, thus favoring those who are qualified? Those who engaged in the system?

187 Varek Raith  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:54:46pm

re: #186 Daniel Ballard

Why not jail the exploiters so we have little work available to the illegals, thus favoring those who are qualified? Those who engaged in the system?

Because companies pay shit wages for that kind of work.

188 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:56:15pm

re: #186 Daniel Ballard

Why not jail the exploiters so we have little work available to the illegals, thus favoring those who are qualified? Those who engaged in the system?

Sure, I'd love to see a massive crackdown on worker abuse in the US, of citizens and non-citizens alike. But there's still tons of jobs-- like the agricultural ones-- that are simply exploitative in the classical capitalist sense. The workers can make a living at it.

189 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:58:05pm

re: #61 celticdragon

So here we go with the countdown to tomorrow and the probable shedding of any pretense that the SCOTUS is actually a neutral player. The Roberts Court is here for a long time to come, and Roberts et alia intend to stamp radical corporate plutonomy onto every single one of us for the rest of our (measured in profitability) lives.

If we were going to be stuck with the nightmare Blade Runner future, then at least we could have been given the cool flying spinner cars.

"United States of America: July 4, 1776 - June 25, 2012
Corporate States of America: June 25, 2012 - ?

Welcome to your new nation, serfs. Hope you like your corporate masters because you no longer have any choice or rights."

That was my first, a bit OTT, reaction to the Montana decision, but I'm not really sure how hyperbolic it really - rights that accomplish nothing are rights that don't exist and soon your vote will be essentially meaningless.

I'm just waiting for the first person up on bribery charges to try and use Kennedy's logic to show that bribery is free speech.

190 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 2:59:30pm

re: #67 ggt

Wouldn't a sovereign state coin it's own money? technically?

No not at all. Soverign is a shorthand term that in this context relates to enumerated powers via the constitution. Which grants (or used to depending on who you ask and their politics) certain powers to the states and reserves others to the national government. The idea is California has the right to regulate activities within itself. Unless and until that is removed by a court decision. Like our low carbon gasoline regulation was.

Should DC set our California building codes? Parking regulations? residential speed limits and the size of cross walks? Some think so. I do not.

191 Obdicut  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 3:00:00pm

re: #190 Daniel Ballard

Naturalization isn't one of those rights, though.

192 engineer cat  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 3:03:25pm

re: #186 Daniel Ballard

Why not jail the exploiters so we have little work available to the illegals, thus favoring those who are qualified? Those who engaged in the system?

if you were a federal or state officer who was in a position to do that, you would find yourself offered many tempting bribes

193 Stephen T.  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 3:52:23pm

re: #14 Expand Your Ground

re: #14 Expand Your Ground

This is a bit like the immigration issue: we can end voter, residence and any similar sort of fraud by issuing a national ID card for all citizens, and another one for legal resident non-citizens.

The ID card would be a valid voter ID for citizens, as well as proof of residence for registering a child in school, opening a bank account, registering a car, signing a lease or buying property.

It would end the patchwork of often discriminatory legislation being passed to "solve" current problems with voter registartion and immigration.

Any takers out there?

There are so many things wrong with voter ID that I can't touch on them all here, but here are some: If it is not free, it is not Constitutional, if it is not free, how is it paid for? If you have to use a paid for ID card to apply for a voter ID card, such as a driver's licence it is not free. If you have trouble with transportation, you can be precluded from gaining one, again unconstitutional. Then there is the quandary that if you can commit fraud by claiming to be someone you are not at the polls, you can also commit fraud by claiming to be someone you are not when you apply for your card.

Voter ID cards impact the poor, the elderly, the young, the handicapped. Most of those groups tend to vote Democratic. Pushes for Voter ID are one way the GOP uses to ensure disenfranchisement for those groups that vote for them the least.

194 labman57  Mon, Jun 25, 2012 6:43:07pm

Scalia's remarks read less like a legal opinion by a member of the SCOTUS and more like the partisan talking points of a FOX News commentator.


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