GOP Proposes Full Repeal of ACA Regardless of Supreme Court Ruling

Even if the Supreme Court finds portions constitutional, the GOP will move to strike down the whole thing
Politics • Views: 36,414

I’m going to put the ramifications of the GOP’s decision to strike down any portion of the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare/HCR/Health Care Reform) that the Supreme Court leaves intact in the widely expected decision that is to be released tomorrow up front.

Provisions that the GOP would eliminate, and which have already gone into effect include the following:

  • coverage for preexisting conditions;
  • 10% tax on indoor tanning;
  • insurers are prohibited from imposing lifetime dollar limits on essential benefits, like hospital stays, in new policies issued;
  • dependents are allowed to stay on their parents’ insurance plan until age 26;
  • insurers are prohibited from excluding pre-existing medical conditions (except in grandfathered individual health insurance plans) for children under the age of 19;
  • insurers are prohibited from charging co-payments, co-insurance, or deductibles for Level A or Level B preventive care and medical screenings on all new insurance plans;
  • closing a portion of the donut hole on Medicaid Part D;
  • reduces (and would eliminate by 2014) insurers’ ability to enforce annual spending caps;
  • prohibits insurers from dropping policy holders when they get sick;
  • flex spending accounts, health savings accounts, and health reimbursement accounts cannot be used to pay for OTC drugs

Effective August 1, 2012, all new plans would be required to cover preventative screenings such as mammograms or colonoscopies, and womens’ preventative screenings would have to be covered without cost sharing. All this is part and parcel of PL 111-148.

The GOP has made it clear that they would still move to repeal the whole kit and caboodle because that’s what they’ve staked their electoral chances on.

If the Supreme Court leaves any part of the law intact in its ruling on Thursday, House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) said at a Wednesday morning press conference that Republicans will move to strike those provisions down.

‘Now we all know the Supreme Court is likely to make some announcement about Obamacare tomorrow,’ Boehner said. ‘We made it pretty clear, and I’ll make it clear one more time: if the court does not strike down the entire law, the House will move to repeal what’s left of it.’

They want to repeal the President’s signature achievement in full - rather than fixing the parts that need to be fixed even as the GOP, and former President George H.W. Bush proposed using the individual mandate improve the health care delivery system and reduce costs. At the time, even the Heritage Foundation was for the proposal.

It went nowhere after Bush lost reelection in 1992, and when President Clinton proposed a single payer system, the GOP then offered up an alternative - individual mandate. Now, the GOP fully opposes the individual mandate, even as they originated the idea.

It’s all about the politics, but the optics don’t look good for the GOP either - and if they move to kill what’s left of the ACA after the Supreme Court rules, you can bet there’s going to be one heck of a fight on their hands precisely because many of the provisions already enacted provide extended coverage to hundreds of thousands of people who would not have coverage otherwise (consider the dependent coverage to age 26 alone).

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86 comments
1 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 11:34:58am

Fine, they can explain to people who will lose their coverage because of this that even though the USSC thinks the act is constitutional with or without the mandate that they should lose their insurance all the while well they keep their government offered health insurance. Could the GOP be bigger pricks, oh yes they can.

2 jaunte  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:01:30pm
3 jaunte  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:02:47pm

10% tax on indoor tanning unfair to orangeAmericans.

4 Targetpractice  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:04:57pm

Somebody really needs to take the GOP leadership aside and point out to them that picking fight after fight with the electorate is not going to help them win in November.

5 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:05:10pm

ACA makes American businesses more competitive, rendering those offshored factories seem like less of a bargain. The GOP can't have that.

6 SpaceJesus  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:08:50pm

Just found out that my cousin's wife is anti-vaccination kook. First real live one I've ever met. Won't be vaccinating their daughter. Anybody ever met one of these? Can they be fixed? I kinda want to borrow their kid and take it to the doctor.

7 Targetpractice  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:09:57pm

Several of the big-name health insurance companies have already said that, regardless of what happens tomorrow, they're going to keep some of the more popular items from the ACA going. That the GOP is deaf to that is, at least to me, proof that they haven't a clue what forces they're messing with here.

8 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:10:39pm

John Boehner has done an absolutely horrible job as Speaker of the House. What an embarrassment for the people of Ohio.

9 jaunte  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:11:50pm
10 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:13:48pm

re: #6 SpaceJesus

Just found out that my cousin's wife is anti-vaccination kook. First real live one I've ever met. Won't be vaccinating their daughter. Anybody ever met one of these? Can they be fixed? I kinda want to borrow their kid and take it to the doctor.

It is really sad that a parent would be so f-ed up in the head that they would turn their child into a political billboard. If educating her doesn't work, skip right to ridicule.

11 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:14:54pm

re: #10 Mich-again

It is really sad that a parent would be so f-ed up in the head that they would turn their child into a political billboard. If educating her doesn't work, skip right to ridicule.

Maybe get her some pet leeches and a book on bloodletting?
/

12 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:15:57pm

Hopefully we'll be reading another one of those scathing wingnut diatribe dissenting opinions from Scalia.

13 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:15:59pm

re: #6 SpaceJesus

Just found out that my cousin's wife is anti-vaccination kook. First real live one I've ever met. Won't be vaccinating their daughter. Anybody ever met one of these? Can they be fixed? I kinda want to borrow their kid and take it to the doctor.

Well, ask her how she is going to register for school without vaccinations?

14 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:16:17pm

re: #9 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Damn Borowitz that's a damn good point.

15 SpaceJesus  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:16:51pm

re: #10 Mich-again

She is posting her anti-vaccination shit all over facebook, I've called her out with facts but she just says it's all a conspiracy by big pharma or some shit.

Oh, I should mention her career is that of being the chief editor of a magazine about Fairies. Literally.

I give up. The world is fucked.

16 efuseakay  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:17:06pm

re: #13 ggt

Well, ask her how she is going to register for school without vaccinations?

Ya don't have to register for home schooling....

17 SpaceJesus  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:17:34pm

re: #13 ggt

They live out in the desert of AZ. Not even in a real town.

18 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:19:01pm

re: #17 SpaceJesus

They live out in the desert of AZ. Not even in a real town.

I know this is going to seem harsh, as these are your nieces/nephews. All I can do with people with this mindset is to say "natural selection" will have it's way with them.

You can't change stupid. Hopefully, either she will come to her senses before the kid(s) get sick or they will get immunized when they are able to do so for themselves.

19 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:19:37pm

re: #15 SpaceJesus

She is posting her anti-vaccination shit all over facebook, I've called her out with facts but she just says it's all a conspiracy by big pharma or some shit.

Oh, I should mention her career is that of being the chief editor of a magazine about Fairies. Literally.

I give up. The world is fucked.

Magic dust is real. Polio vaccines are fake. check.

20 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:20:08pm

re: #6 SpaceJesus

Just found out that my cousin's wife is anti-vaccination kook. First real live one I've ever met. Won't be vaccinating their daughter. Anybody ever met one of these? Can they be fixed? I kinda want to borrow their kid and take it to the doctor.

Ask her what herd immunity is and what it's worth.

21 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:20:10pm

re: #17 SpaceJesus

They live out in the desert of AZ. Not even in a real town.

Well, that in and of itself isn't a bad thing.

But are there a lot of fairies in the AZ desert?

22 engineer cat  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:20:47pm

"force shits upon reason's back"

- poor richard's almanac
(benjamin franklin)

23 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:21:18pm

re: #17 SpaceJesus

They live out in the desert of AZ. Not even in a real town.

There must be a correlation between long term exposure to high temperatures and a loss of brain function.

24 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:23:30pm

re: #23 Mich-again

There must be a correlation between long term exposure to high temperatures and a loss of brain fanction.

I've heard people see things in the desert. I thought it was usually caused by dehydration and fatigue.

25 SpaceJesus  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:23:44pm

re: #23 Mich-again

They just moved there. My cousin is from CT. I think AZ is just so full of crazy that it instantly turns people bonkers.

26 SpaceJesus  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:24:53pm

re: #21 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know. Shes from AZ and claims that fairies literally exist. I can't imagine where in AZ that might be. The fairies are probably hanging out next to the cactus she left her brain behind.

27 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:26:41pm

Kid in the pool outside keeps yelling "For Asgard!" and splashing mightily.

28 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:26:54pm

re: #26 SpaceJesus

I don't know. Shes from AZ and claims that fairies literally exist. I can't imagine where in AZ that might be. The fairies are probably hanging out next to the cactus she left her brain behind.

If she wants to think fairies exist --who cares. People think there is a disembodied figure standing at the gates of heaven with a guest list.

Personally, I'd prefer fairies. You can contain them, they don't cross water. So, yeah, it makes sense they'd be in the desert.

29 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:27:03pm

re: #20 Surreptitious Stealth Troll

Ask her what herd immunity is and what it's worth.

That doesn't work. Anti-vaccine conspiracism is like birtherism: It is a "sign of a mind in flight from reality" (Jonathan Kay). You cannot simply argue such a mind back to reality until the issues that induced the person to flee reality are addressed.

30 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:27:09pm

re: #27 SanFranciscoZionist

Kid in the pool outside keeps yelling "For Asgard!" and splashing mightily.

awesome!

31 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:27:17pm

re: #26 SpaceJesus

I don't know. Shes from AZ and claims that fairies literally exist. I can't imagine where in AZ that might be. The fairies are probably hanging out next to the cactus she left her brain behind.

She's deep in the woo, you'll never dig her out.

32 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:27:32pm

re: #26 SpaceJesus

I don't know. Shes from AZ and claims that fairies literally exist. I can't imagine where in AZ that might be. The fairies are probably hanging out next to the cactus she left her brain behind.

Well it makes sense, if someone believes in fairies and magic dust, why would they need vaccines?

33 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:28:49pm

re: #21 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, that in and of itself isn't a bad thing.

But are there a lot of fairies in the AZ desert?

Faeries are everywhere!
Look in the mirror, my dear!
*waves*

34 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:29:27pm

It's like when I run accross one of those preachy non-smokers. I tell them, "look around" people have been smoking since the beginning of people and there are more of us know than there have ever been." You know if it were as horribly horrible as you say it is, do you think we'd have 7B people on the planet?

The same with vaccines --if it were all that horrible, would we have so many healthy people in this country? Really? it's causing all kinds of problems? How many people do you know with those problems???????

35 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:29:52pm

re: #33 Dancing along the light of day

Faeries are everywhere!
Look in the mirror, my dear!
*waves*

Giraffes are not faeries.

36 jaunte  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:30:22pm

Fairy Bell Lane, Surprise, Arizona:
Image: Screen-Shot-2012-06-27-at-10.28.jpg

37 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:30:36pm

re: #35 Surreptitious Stealth Troll

No, but THIS Giraffe believes in faeries.

38 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:30:47pm

re: #34 ggt

It's like when I run accross one of those preachy non-smokers. I tell them, "look around" people have been smoking since the beginning of people and there are more of us know than there have ever been." You know if it were as horribly horrible as you say it is, do you think we'd have 7B people on the planet?

The same with vaccines --if it were all that horrible, would we have so many healthy people in this country? Really? it's causing all kinds of problems? How many people do you know with those problems???

Stop smoking!

It can trigger cancer.

39 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:31:12pm

re: #38 Surreptitious Stealth Troll

Stop smoking!

It can trigger cancer.

Not smoking could trigger worse things for those in my life!

HAH!

40 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:31:23pm

re: #35 Surreptitious Stealth Troll

Giraffes are not faeries.

[Link: www.elfwood.com...]

41 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:31:29pm

re: #37 Dancing along the light of day

No, but THIS Giraffe believes in faeries.

I believe in ... squirrel!

42 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:31:57pm

re: #35 Surreptitious Stealth Troll

Giraffes are not faeries.

Sez who? Little bitty ones with wings could be, especially if they're floral.

43 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:32:00pm

I have more to accomplish --

have a great evening all!

44 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:32:13pm

re: #40 SanFranciscoZionist

[Link: www.elfwood.com...]

Favorited!

45 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:33:31pm

re: #39 ggt

Not smoking could trigger worse things for those in my life!

HAH!

Yep. Like homicidal rage from nicotine deprivation. //

46 sagehen  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:34:04pm

You left out the part the insurance companies HATE HATE HATE the most... the medical loss ratio.

According to ACA, an insurance company has to spend 85% of their received premiums on actual care for actual policyholders, leaving 15% for administrative expenses, advertising, and profits.

They don't like that at all. Some companies spend as little as 70% on patient benefits, that's why their CEO's and stockholders were raking in such obscene amounts (and a big part of why Americans pay so much more than people in other industrialized nations. For comparison purposes, Medicare spends 6% on administrative expenses, and 94% on patients.)

If a company doesn't spend 85% on patients, again according to ACA, they have to send refunds to their policyholders. In the first year, already they've had to refund $4 Billion. They hate that, with the white-hot passion of a thousand burning suns. They would happily spend $500 million in anonymous super-pac donations, and another $500 million in lobbying, to not have to do that again.

47 dragonath  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:34:09pm

re: #36 jaunte

That... picture is a long way away from primeval forests and happy cactuses...

48 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:34:42pm

re: #42 CuriousLurker

Sez who? Little bitty ones with wings could be, especially if they're floral.

Well, giraffes do get their heads up into tree canopies frequently, so its not impossible that they see things up there that humans do not.

49 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:35:27pm

re: #48 Dark_Falcon

Well, giraffes do get their heads up into tree canopies frequently, so its not impossible that they see things up there that humans do not.

You're right, I hadn't thought of that! ;)

50 jaunte  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:35:37pm

re: #47 Be Zorch, Daddio

Surprise! Arizona.

51 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:35:41pm

re: #39 ggt

Not smoking could trigger worse things for those in my life!

HAH!

I'd hate to see you get sick.

However, smoking increases the probability, it may never get to 1.

52 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:36:14pm

Why You Should Spiral-Cut Your Wiener

53 darthstar  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:37:36pm

Happy Back to the Future day.

Image: 552623_10150936555757917_1172240037_n.jpg

54 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:37:41pm

re: #46 sagehen

You left out the part the insurance companies HATE HATE HATE the most... the medical loss ratio.

According to ACA, an insurance company has to spend 85% of their received premiums on actual care for actual policyholders, leaving 15% for administrative expenses, advertising, and profits.

They don't like that at all. Some companies spend as little as 70% on patient benefits, that's why their CEO's and stockholders were raking in such obscene amounts (and a big part of why Americans pay so much more than people in other industrialized nations. For comparison purposes, Medicare spends 6% on administrative expenses, and 94% on patients.)

If a company doesn't spend 85% on patients, again according to ACA, they have to send refunds to their policyholders. In the first year, already they've had to refund $4 Billion. They hate that, with the white-hot passion of a thousand burning suns. They would happily spend $500 million in anonymous super-pac donations, and another $500 million in lobbying, to not have to do that again.

Is there precedent for that? Because trying to set acceptable levels of profit seems rather socialist to me. That said, I am a Republican so YMMV.

55 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:37:51pm

re: #45 CuriousLurker

Yep. Like homicidal rage from nicotine deprivation. //

Not you too!

56 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:38:31pm

re: #55 Surreptitious Stealth Troll

Not you too!

'Fraid so.

57 Targetpractice  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:39:17pm

re: #53 darthstar

Happy Back to the Future day.

Image: 552623_10150936555757917_1172240037_n.jpg

Great Scott!

58 darthstar  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:39:30pm

SOCIALISM! Whatever does that mean?

59 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:39:58pm

re: #52 Killgore Trout

Why You Should Spiral-Cut Your Wiener

[Embedded content]

I'm already circumcised.

60 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:40:59pm

re: #56 CuriousLurker

'Fraid so.

If you guys get sick, I will be very upset.

61 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:42:19pm

re: #60 Surreptitious Stealth Troll

Speaking of sick, did you ever find out what was causing you to feel so bad a few months back?

62 darthstar  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:42:44pm

re: #54 Dark_Falcon

Is there precedent for that? Because trying to set acceptable levels of profit seems rather socialist to me. That said, I am a Republican so YMMV.

Medicare has a 3.5% overhead. In an effort to 'meet' the 15% threshold, insurance companies have tried to get marketing reclassified as a form of "medical education"

63 sagehen  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:43:02pm

re: #54 Dark_Falcon

Is there precedent for that? Because trying to set acceptable levels of profit seems rather socialist to me. That said, I am a Republican so YMMV.

I'm happy to let the free market set prices for things that people can live without.

The constitutional imperative that the government "secure the common good" suggests there is such a thing as an unconscionable profit on things that *everyone*, literally everyone, CANNOT LIVE WITHOUT. And then denying that thing to people who don't have the cash to allow that level of profit.

64 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:45:29pm

re: #61 CuriousLurker

Speaking of sick, did you ever find out what was causing you to feel so bad a few months back?

Partly due to my reaction to some meds, and the rest chronic fatigue likely from clinical depression.

65 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:46:42pm

re: #64 Surreptitious Stealth Troll

Partly due to my reaction to some meds, and the rest chronic fatigue likely from clinical depression.

Ugh, depression sucks, but at least they can adjust the meds. Glad it wasn't your heart.

66 b_sharp  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:47:48pm

re: #65 CuriousLurker

Ugh, depression sucks, but at least they can adjust the meds. Glad it wasn't your heart.

Same here.

67 Kragar  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:48:35pm

Just caught my daughter cheating on her summer math review.

"Wow, you went from 60% to 100% in one day."
"Yup!"
"You found the answer key, didn't you?"
"..."
"That's what I thought."

Luckily, we got this 2 days into her reviews, so we can buckle down, but she is setting herself up for a really crappy summer.

68 jaunte  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:48:36pm

From Tuesday, still good news.

Court Upholds EPA's Right to Regulate CO2

Part of the challenge contended that the EPA had not done enough of its own work to prove that climate change is a real threat, to which the Court had a rather cheeky response. "This is how science works," the judges wrote. "EPA is not required to re-prove the existence of the atom every time it approaches a scientific question."

69 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:48:38pm

re: #54 Dark_Falcon

Is there precedent for that? Because trying to set acceptable levels of profit seems rather socialist to me. That said, I am a Republican so YMMV.

Perhaps in public utilities? But then public utilities are just one more socialist scam.. /

70 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:49:20pm

re: #67 Kragar

BUMMER for both of you!

71 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:51:33pm
72 danarchy  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:52:06pm

re: #69 Mich-again

Perhaps in public utilities? But then public utilities are just one more socialist scam.. /

Public utilities also tend to have local monopolies which is why the government regulates them so heavily. Not quite analogous.

73 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:52:53pm

re: #6 SpaceJesus

Just found out that my cousin's wife is anti-vaccination kook. First real live one I've ever met. Won't be vaccinating their daughter. Anybody ever met one of these? Can they be fixed? I kinda want to borrow their kid and take it to the doctor.

Take them to an old cemetery. Show them all the little stones for babies and toddlers. Children that died from the things we vaccinate against.

Then ask them why they're trying to murder their child.

If that doesn't work, call child protective services anonymously. Depending on your state's laws they may or may not be able to force them to vaccinate but they can sure bring serious pressure on them.

74 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:54:06pm

re: #63 sagehen

I'm happy to let the free market set prices for things that people can live without.

The constitutional imperative that the government "secure the common good" suggests there is such a thing as an unconscionable profit on things that *everyone*, literally everyone, CANNOT LIVE WITHOUT. And then denying that thing to people who don't have the cash to allow that level of profit.

That suggests that the idea of 'unconscionable profit' could be applied to a number of other things such as food. Now, I'm even more concerned, as that sort of idea seems to open a door to additional economic intervention by the federal government.

75 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:55:31pm

re: #69 Mich-again

Perhaps in public utilities? But then public utilities are just one more socialist scam.. /

Well, for utilities such rules have to be in place, sine unlike with health care there can be little to no competition.

76 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 8:56:26pm

re: #72 danarchy

Public utilities also tend to have local monopolies which is why the government regulates them so heavily. Not quite analogous.

An oligopoly is a lot closer to a monopoly than it is to a free market..

77 Mich-again  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 9:00:49pm

re: #74 Dark_Falcon

That suggests that the idea of 'unconscionable profit' could be applied to a number of other things such as food. Now, I'm even more concerned, as that sort of idea seems to open a door to additional economic intervention by the federal government.

Perhaps gasoline should become a public utility. And if that idea seems crazy than why shouldn't speculators be allowed to buy and sell futures in the municipal water supply.

78 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 9:02:13pm

re: #72 danarchy

Public utilities also tend to have local monopolies which is why the government regulates them so heavily. Not quite analogous.

Actually it is, having a local monopoly doesn't insulate an entity from the market. It was the semi socialist Snohomish Public Utility District that was responsible for pulling Enron's scam down. Unlike other privatized utility companies Snohomish viewed themselves as having an obligation to their ratepayers not to simply pass on the increased costs of what they saw as convincing evidence of fraud, so they simply refused to pay:

The PUD's five-year legal challenge with Enron captured international attention, due in large part to the utility's relentless efforts on behalf of consumers in the Pacific Northwest. In 2004, the utility uncovered audiotapes and financial records that proved former energy giant Enron bilked consumers in the western U.S. of more than $1 billion.

Tapes of profanity-laden phone calls revealed what Enron traders thought about "Grandma Millie" and how traders were taught to "weave lies together" to jack up the price of energy. Snohomish PUD filed more than 1,200 pages of such evidence at FERC, the agency charged with protecting consumers from unjust energy pricing.

"Even a cursory review of the transcripts should have led FERC to the obvious conclusion that Enron manipulated the market," said former PUD Board of Commissioners President Cynthia First. "It's absolutely criminal."

If it wasn't for Snohomish and their comparatively socialist sensibilities, Enron would have been allowed to continue raping the west coast power market for a very long time.

79 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 9:05:16pm

re: #73 William Barnett-Lewis

Take them to an old cemetery. Show them all the little stones for babies and toddlers. Children that died from the things we vaccinate against.

Then ask them why they're trying to murder their child.

If that doesn't work, call child protective services anonymously. Depending on your state's laws they may or may not be able to force them to vaccinate but they can sure bring serious pressure on them.

The problem with that is that such pressure is usually seen by conspiracists as "persecution for speaking the truth". As such it can just drive them further into their delusions. And even if it works, that kind of outside pressure play often does not break the spell of the conspiracy. All the conspiracist may feel you proved was that you could bring force to bear they could not counter. If someone feels you gained their obedience through "iron fist tactics"*, then if something happens down the road that gives them the ability to hammer you, they may take it. Use of coercion to deal with conspiracism is a dangerous business. It is on some occasions needful, but it is always risky.

*: "iron fist tactics" meaning the use of coercion AKA "The Iron Fist". My use of the phrase does not refer to the former Lizard turned Stalker who uses the nic "Iron Fist".

80 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 9:07:12pm

re: #74 Dark_Falcon

That suggests that the idea of 'unconscionable profit' could be applied to a number of other things such as food.

And it is, depending on environment and circumstance. During war, natural disasters and other emergencies profiteering is rightly considered a crime and is severely punished. That's because of the dire consequences, which happen to be endemic in the healthcare market even in good times. It's also the reason the government funds thinks like SNAP and food banks, because availability of access to food matters.

81 danarchy  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 9:15:59pm

re: #78 goddamnedfrank

While I appreciate the refresher on recent history, I'm not seeing how that makes a public utility analogous to a private insurance company. Nobody ever claimed that a public utility wasn't susceptible to market forces, just that the rationale for the heavy regulation is the status as a local monopoly.

meanwhile there are lots of health insurance companies:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

And I've had a few in the past decade that aren't even on this list so I am sure there are many more. I'm also not saying that the government shouldn't regulate the insurance companies just that the reason for the regulation is not the same as public utilities.

82 sagehen  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 9:30:40pm

re: #74 Dark_Falcon

That suggests that the idea of 'unconscionable profit' could be applied to a number of other things such as food. Now, I'm even more concerned, as that sort of idea seems to open a door to additional economic intervention by the federal government.

That's why we have food stamps. And ag subsidies to keep retail prices down. And government cheese.

There's already plenty of government intervention to keep food affordable, and has been since before either of us was born.

83 Ayeless in Ghazi  Wed, Jun 27, 2012 9:45:49pm

Morning all. I have the insomnia right now.

Edit: Oops! Let's all repair to the new thread :D

84 Bulworth  Thu, Jun 28, 2012 6:10:04am
They want to repeal the President’s signature achievement in full - rather than fixing the parts that need to be fixed even as the GOP, and former President George H.W. Bush proposed using the individual mandate improve the health care delivery system and reduce costs. At the time, even the Heritage Foundation was for the proposal.

The GOP has been teabagged since then. Hell, this isn't even the same GOP that passed Medicare Part D a few years ago.

85 Bulworth  Thu, Jun 28, 2012 6:12:43am
Provisions that the GOP would eliminate, and which have already gone into effect include the following:

•coverage for preexisting conditions;
•10% tax on indoor tanning;
•insurers are prohibited from imposing lifetime dollar limits on essential benefits, like hospital stays, in new policies issued;
•dependents are allowed to stay on their parents’ insurance plan until age 26;
•insurers are prohibited from excluding pre-existing medical conditions (except in grandfathered individual health insurance plans) for children under the age of 19;
•insurers are prohibited from charging co-payments, co-insurance, or deductibles for Level A or Level B preventive care and medical screenings on all new insurance plans;
•closing a portion of the donut hole on Medicaid Part D;
•reduces (and would eliminate by 2014) insurers’ ability to enforce annual spending caps;
•prohibits insurers from dropping policy holders when they get sick;
•flex spending accounts, health savings accounts, and health reimbursement accounts cannot be used to pay for OTC drugs

Getting rid of these elements is a feature, not a bug, in the teabagGOP's plans. What appears good and humane to normal beings is anathema to the party of Boner, Issa, and McConnell.

86 abolitionist  Thu, Jun 28, 2012 9:15:37am

Beginning.. wrong thread.


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