New Right Wing Fast and Furious Talking Point: Liberals Are Heartless Monsters

Breitbart.com hitman John Nolte targets another Politico writer
Wingnuts • Views: 38,091

I notice that the wingnut blogs are settling on a new line of attack for the “Fast and Furious” fake outrage: if you point out that the whole thing is a politically driven phony scandal, that means you’re a heartless monster who doesn’t care about murdered agent Brian Terry, his family, or the “brown people” (yes, I saw a post with those words) that are killed by the Obama administration’s guns.

I think I’m summarizing their talking point accurately. And now breitbart.com hitman John Nolte is going after Politico’s Roger Simon from exactly this angle: POLITICO’S CHIEF POLITICAL COLUMNIST MOCKS FAST & FURIOUS!

With a big picture of Brian Terry, in case you missed Nolte’s point:

Of course, no one is mocking the loss of Brian Terry or making fun of Terry’s family, when they criticize this partisan, over-wrought investigation. The Terry family’s losses are very real — unlike the accusations that the Obama administration engaged in a cover-up, and unlike the crazy conspiracy theory that Fast and Furious was part of a plot to deprive conservatives of their Second Amendment rights.

But it’s more than a little disturbing to see the eagerness with which people like John Nolte and Darrell Issa exploit images of Terry to manipulate their right wing wing followers’ emotions. Nolte isn’t “mocking” Terry and his family — he’s using them for political purposes.

With one Politico scalp in his belt, John Nolte’s now targeting another of their writers. Who could have predicted that?

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346 comments
1 [deleted]  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 3:58:13pm
2 Iwouldprefernotto  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:01:51pm

Do conservatives want more regulations when it comes to selling firearms? If not what is the fuss about?

3 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:04:14pm

So, their argument is that the gun seller has culpability for the murder? That the murder would not have occurred without the sale of the gun?

Strange to see them adopt so extreme an anti-gun position.

4 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:05:03pm

So they finally got around to acknowledging that gun trafficking from the US to Mexico is getting people other than white Americans killed? Fantastic, perhaps in a few more weeks, they'll acknowledge that there's tens of thousands more guns that have gone across the border than those involved in "walking" investigations.

5 erik_t  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:05:56pm

I'm sure if they attack this story from enough dumb angles, it'll get people to vote for Mitt Romney!

Mitt Romney!
Mitt Romney.
mittromney
mittrzzzzzzzzzz

6 jaunte  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:09:27pm

re: #4 Targetpractice

perhaps in a few more weeks, they'll acknowledge that there's tens of thousands more guns that have gone across the border than those involved in "walking" investigations.

This is the weird part of the 'scandal'; they have to believe that only the guns that the Feds had something to do with are contributing to the violence on the border.

7 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:09:48pm

The writer of the referenced piece is Karol Markowicz, who was born in what was then the Soviet Union, but grew up in Brooklyn after her family was allowed to leave that "worker's paradise". Many of the 'Soviet emigre' writers we've seen seem to be quite angry as writers.

8 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:10:59pm

re: #1 Channeling Confucius

Is anyone surprised?

Not I.

Bringing up Brian Terry is turning in to the Fox angle on this. But he's dead, so they say, "What does Brian Terry's family think of this?" Even if it was a Fast and Furious gun that killed him, which is unknown, how does this make his family's opinion of Issa's witch hunt relevant?

Anyone who has been paying attention here knows I care deeply about the Border Patrol, and I'm very sorry that Brian Terry died, and I'm sorry for his family. They have the right to their opinion and their audience for it, but they should know that many of their supporters are like ticks sucking whatever value they can get out of the situation in the name of getting Holder, getting Obama, and/or making the issue of gun control an effective means of congressional control and a means to make more money (in some cases, by selling lots of guns that end up in the hands of the cartels. Is that irony?).

Emphasis added for the repost.

9 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:12:42pm

re: #4 Targetpractice

So they finally got around to acknowledging that gun trafficking from the US to Mexico is getting people other than white Americans killed? Fantastic, perhaps in a few more weeks, they'll acknowledge that there's tens of thousands more guns that have gone across the border than those involved in "walking" investigations.

The question would be what to do about it without giving anti-gun zealots an opening. It is mistrust on both sides of the aisle that prevents a viable gun-trafficking law.

10 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:17:49pm

re: #7 Dark_Falcon

The writer of the referenced piece is Karol Markowicz, who was born in what was then the Soviet Union, but grew up in Brooklyn after her family was allowed to leave that "worker's paradise". Many of the 'Soviet emigre' writers we've seen seem to be quite angry as writers.

Here's her description of Fast and Furious:

the Obama Justice Department sold guns to Mexican drug gangs under a program called Fast and Furious.

Moron.

11 Kronocide  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:19:56pm

re: #8 wrenchwench

Not I.

Emphasis added for the repost.

I've seen ticks used to describe liberals. I called out a douche on Facebook yesterday, to which he called me a liberal tick.

Ticks = bloodsuckers.

In the 30's Jews were called bloodsuckers. Calling people ticks is passive aggressive Neo Nazi Stormtrooper crap. Nolte is a Bill White who hasn't been caught going there yet.

12 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:20:24pm

re: #10 wrenchwench

Here's her description of Fast and Furious:

Moron.

That isn't just stupid, its a goddamned lie! Yes, "Fast and Furious" was poorly planned and executed, but there is absolutely no evidence to suggest the ATF actually sold any weapon to any person.

13 erik_t  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:21:03pm

re: #11 Kronocide

Parasitic imagery is pretty straightforward. I'm sure that a fair number of people who use it are unaware of any specific connotations with Nazi Germany.

14 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:21:50pm

re: #11 Kronocide

I've seen ticks used to describe liberals. I called out a douche on Facebook yesterday, to which he called me a liberal tick.

Ticks = bloodsuckers.

In the 30's Jews were called bloodsuckers. Calling people ticks is passive aggressive Neo Nazi Stormtrooper crap. Nolte is a Bill White who hasn't been caught going there yet.

Is it OK to say these people 'are like ticks'?

15 Kragar  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:24:10pm

They care so much about Brian Terry and men just like him, they will do whatever they can to destroy agencies which could have kept him alive.

16 Kronocide  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:26:20pm

If it's OK to call liberals ticks, then it's only appropriate to call Nolte and the Breitbartians societal cancer.

17 Mich-again  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:28:00pm

Those durn heartless bleeding heart liberals.

18 Mocking Jay  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:28:44pm

So... set aside a little partition on my hard drive. Installed Win 8 preview. Most bizarre desktop experience in my life.

19 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:29:35pm

re: #13 erik_t

Parasitic imagery is pretty straightforward. I'm sure that a fair number of people who use it are unaware of any specific connotations with Nazi Germany.

The Soviet Union used such imagery often in its propaganda. So in one of life's little ironies, Karol Markowicz has adopted a tactic favored by the very regime her parents wanted to get her away from. Her screed would not have been out of place in Pravda in its approach: "The truth doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is The Cause. When the truth serves The Cause, tell the truth. When it does not, tell the lies that will best Help the Cause."

20 ozbloke  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:31:59pm

re: #18 It's a cookbook!

So... set aside a little partition on my hard drive. Installed Win 8 preview. Most bizarre desktop experience in my life.

Is that bizarre good, or bizarre bad?

21 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:33:04pm

BBL

22 Mocking Jay  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:34:27pm

re: #20 ozbloke

Is that bizarre good, or bizarre bad?

Bad, at least in the sense that it's going to throw a lot of people off at first. I think Metro looks like it would be a great on a tablet, but not completely replacing the desktop everyone's gotten used to. Now yeah, there's still the desktop app, which I'm using right now, but it does little to alleviate the weirdness. I'm sure I can get used to it, but I'm a little worried about how this is going to go over with the masses.

23 Mocking Jay  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:40:27pm

Example: it took me about 10 minutes to figure out how that the IE metro app does indeed allow for tabbed browsing. It doesn't look like it at first. You have to right click and the bar scrolls down the top of the screen.

24 jaunte  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:44:16pm

From 2011:
Federal budget-cut talk alarms state law enforcement

State and local law enforcement officials in Montana say they are concerned federal budget cuts could mean less money for drug interdiction, community policing and other programs.

Members of the Republican-controlled House last week recommended cutting $100 billion to $175 billion this year.

This is the budget that pays the salaries of agents like Brian Terry.

25 Kragar  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:52:50pm

re: #24 jaunte

From 2011:
Federal budget-cut talk alarms state law enforcement

This is the budget that pays the salaries of agents like Brian Terry.

The GOP only likes dead heroes, not the kind you actually have to pay or care for.

26 Only The Lurker Knows  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 4:58:30pm

re: #25 Kragar

The GOP only likes dead heroes, not the kind you actually have to pay or care for.

They feel the same way about Children. While they are in the womb, they are sacrosanct, one they leave it, fuck em.

27 b_sharp  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 5:07:36pm

re: #20 ozbloke

Is that bizarre good, or bizarre bad?

Bizarre annoying.

28 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 5:08:57pm

re: #25 Kragar

The GOP only likes dead heroes, not the kind you actually have to pay or care for.

And they are suddenly concerned about Mexicans getting killed in Mexico, but if they cross the border, trying to get back to their families here, they should die in the desert.

29 b_sharp  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 5:11:28pm

The only way they can justify the claim that F&F is responsible for the death of Terry is if they can show that the killer would not have had a gun without F&F.

Can they do that?

30 Varek Raith  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 5:14:34pm

re: #29 b_sharp

The only way they can justify the claim that F&F is responsible for the death of Terry is if they can show that the killer would not have had a gun without F&F.

Can they do that?

Nope. Further, if they did, they would be forced to defend the terribly pathetic gun laws in this country that they and the NRA pushed for.

31 Mocking Jay  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 5:18:53pm

re: #30 Varek Raith

Nope. Further, if they did, they would be forced to defend the terribly pathetic gun laws in this country that they and the NRA pushed for.

Careful. That's the kind of talk Issa's looking for.

32 Varek Raith  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 5:19:15pm

re: #31 It's a cookbook!

Careful. That's the kind of talk Issa's looking for.

Oh, right.

33 Mocking Jay  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 5:20:12pm

re: #32 Varek Raith

Oh, right.

Uh huh. They're already on to us. Keep it on the down-low...

34 Gus  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 5:21:56pm

re: #31 It's a cookbook!

Careful. That's the kind of talk Issa's looking for.

Ayeeeee! //

35 b_sharp  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 5:27:52pm

If they want to claim that gun sales in general caused the death of Terry, that would be an easier claim to defend, but claiming that a specific sale was responsible is a spurious argument. The same holds for concern over the deaths in Mexico from guns. As long as there is a free flow of weapons into Mexico, and organized crime uses guns to terrorize others, a specific load of guns is frankly irrelevant.

36 Interesting Times  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 5:34:52pm

Here's something highly appropriate for this thread:

37 Gus  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 5:40:30pm

re: #36 Interesting Times

Here's something highly appropriate for this thread:

[Embedded content]

Right wing business model. It's a bit multi-layered. They have the racists commentators they have to hold onto. The lies of course. Most of it is done on a daily basis (hourly) to stir up some fabricated outrage and hysteria on the part of their following. Make no mistake though. These people -- Breitbart.com included -- act as surrogate to the Republican Party.

38 palomino  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 5:42:32pm

re: #11 Kronocide

I've seen ticks used to describe liberals. I called out a douche on Facebook yesterday, to which he called me a liberal tick.

Ticks = bloodsuckers.

In the 30's Jews were called bloodsuckers. Calling people ticks is passive aggressive Neo Nazi Stormtrooper crap. Nolte is a Bill White who hasn't been caught going there yet.

The whole tick/bloodsucker/leech meme is of a piece with the "makers vs. takers" and "job creators" rhetoric put out by the right. The ultimate purpose is to pit middle and upper class (especially white) Americans against those who are largely seen as lazy recipients of federal govt largesse--namely, the poor, particularly blacks and Hispanics.

The RW noise machine has actually convinced a big chunk of the electorate that the fed takes hard working white people money and just hands it out in huge chunks to undeserving and shiftless minorities. It's essentially the Southern Strategy adapted for the 21st century. Sadly it continues to be an effective approach for the right.

39 Interesting Times  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 5:46:35pm

re: #38 palomino

The whole tick/bloodsucker/leech meme is of a piece with the "makers vs. takers" and "job creators" rhetoric put out by the right.

Yes. And the biggest, most bitter irony is that the real bloodsuckers are the ultra-rich elites sucking at the government subsidy teat (*cough* fossil fuel companies *cough*)

40 Gus  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 5:47:44pm

Still hot.

41 darthstar  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 5:51:09pm

re: #40 Gus

Still hot.

64 balmy degrees on the coast here...was in the 70s at the ballpark today...got a tiny bit of sunburn, maybe. Scorcher.

42 Gus  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 5:51:50pm

re: #41 darthstar

64 balmy degrees on the coast here...was in the 70s at the ballpark today...got a tiny bit of sunburn, maybe. Scorcher.

Damn you!

[Shakes fist.]

43 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 5:53:23pm

re: #41 darthstar

64 balmy degrees on the coast here...was in the 70s at the ballpark today...got a tiny bit of sunburn, maybe. Scorcher.

Sun's been down for an hour and we're already cooled down to 93.

44 Only The Lurker Knows  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 5:58:04pm

re: #40 Gus

Still hot.

93 here.

66 homes destroyed in the latest wildfire.

Nuthing like living in a tinderbox

45 SidewaysQuark  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 5:58:48pm

I'm sure I'm not the first here to note the irony that the mantra "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" obviously doesn't apply when the opportunity to impugn a Democrat arises.

46 Kronocide  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 5:59:42pm

It was low 80's for my morning swim here.

then I had lunch as a mexi joint with 100 tequilas. The 4 Copas anejo was mucho bueno.

For dinner, lots of poke, sancerre, and maybe a syrah.

Not bad for a tick.

47 blueraven  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:01:50pm

With the election tomorrow of a new President of Mexico, gun sales to Mexico will probably be even easier. The front runner and presumed winner will not be pursing a war on the drug cartels the way Calderon has.

Recent polls show Enrique Peña Nieto — a member of the Institutional Revolutionary Party, or PRI, and former governor of the state of Mexico — is leading in the race to become the country’s next leader. The other candidates are Josefina Vázquez Mota of the ruling National Action Party, or PAN; Andrés Manuel López Obrador of the progressive alliance, made up of the Party of the Democratic Revolution and the Labor Party; and Gabriel Quadri of the New Alliance Party.

As the PRI looks to reclaim the presidency — and possibly control a majority in both houses of Mexico’s Congress — it is trying to shed the negativity associated with the seven decades the party was in power last century.

Observers, including some Texas lawmakers, believe the party may return to the practice of cutting deals with drug cartels to ensure that trafficking routes are not disturbed, that government and law enforcement officials receive their share of the profits and that violence is confined to those in the trade.

[...]

President Felipe Calderón’s use of the military to fight criminals has faced criticism, though the majority of Mexicans approve the plan. A poll conducted by the Pew Research Center’s Global Attitudes Project found that 80 percent of Mexicans support the strategy.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

I mean really, with no cooperation from the US over guns going into Mexico, they cant win anyway.

48 TDG2112  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:03:44pm

Is that the way they want to play this game? Then lead them.

Say, yeah, that's right, Guns kill people, People don't kill people. Because that is what they are arguing with this. Point out they are now arguing for gun control and declare agreement. If all they want is to find the people responsible, fine, but ask them how to solve the problem since they now think that it's the guns that are killing people.

49 Mocking Jay  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:05:20pm

Had anyone but the government sold those guns these people would be screaming at us to respect their rights.

50 blueraven  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:08:09pm

re: #49 It's a cookbook!

Had anyone but the government sold those guns these people would be screaming at us to respect their rights.

I don't think the government sold any guns.

51 darthstar  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:09:20pm

I'm enjoying the #RepublicanMovies trend on twitter...my contributions thus far: Bringing up Boehner and E.T. The Illegal Terrestrial.

52 Kragar  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:10:23pm

re: #50 blueraven

I don't think the government sold any guns.

They didn't. All they did was try and track guns.

53 Mocking Jay  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:10:25pm

re: #50 blueraven

I don't think the government sold any guns.

Bah, you know what I meant. :P

54 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:11:30pm

Customs and Border Patrol only started searching southbound vehicles at the border in April of 2009. Before that it was rare and random that a vehicle would be searched. Vehicles coming north have been subject to search for decades. Mexico hardly ever searches southbound vehicles. I can speculate why, but I don't know the answer.

55 Kragar  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:15:09pm

Hobby note: if you're working with plastics and need to shape and clean bits, a battery powered manicure file really works well.

56 Mocking Jay  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:17:01pm

Doesn't it, though? Doesn't it?

57 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:17:07pm

re: #47 blueraven

With the election tomorrow of a new President of Mexico, gun sales to Mexico will probably be even easier. The front runner and presumed winner will not be pursing a war on the drug cartels the way Calderon has.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

I mean really, with no cooperation from the US over guns going into Mexico, they cant win anyway.

I was just rummaging around in my old Pages, and there were lots of articles about gun and ammo smugglers getting caught. Lots of people have been busted and prosecuted in New Mexico for buying and selling guns headed for Mexico. One of the stupid things about Fast and Furious was that they watched lots of guns being sold before they figured out how to nail anyone for what they suspected was acting as suppliers for the cartels. The laws are so lax about how many guns you can buy, and then sell, trade or give away the next day, they couldn't make a case against anyone.

58 Varek Raith  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:21:22pm

Sweet.
[Link: www.kickstarter.com...]

59 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:22:24pm

Later, lizards.

60 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:23:27pm

re: #57 wrenchwench

I was just rummaging around in my old Pages, and there were lots of articles about gun and ammo smugglers getting caught. Lots of people have been busted and prosecuted in New Mexico for buying and selling guns headed for Mexico. One of the stupid things about Fast and Furious was that they watched lots of guns being sold before they figured out how to nail anyone for what they suspected was acting as suppliers for the cartels. The laws are so lax about how many guns you can buy, and then sell, trade or give away the next day, they couldn't make a case against anyone.

You've been rocking this story for a while, I've noticed. Some of the best Pages on this important topic have been your posts.

61 Mocking Jay  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:28:01pm

re: #58 Varek Raith

Sweet.
[Link: www.kickstarter.com...]

Almost 3 mill? Wow.

62 Varek Raith  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:29:26pm

re: #61 It's a cookbook!

Almost 3 mill? Wow.

Goal was 2.1mil.

63 Interesting Times  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:31:37pm

re: #51 darthstar

I'm enjoying the #RepublicanMovies trend on twitter...my contributions thus far: Bringing up Boehner and E.T. The Illegal Terrestrial.

Win:

64 Mocking Jay  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:31:57pm

re: #62 Varek Raith

Goal was 2.1mil.

It is hard to resist getting a statue made of you in a game...

65 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:40:29pm
66 Gus  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:40:48pm

re: #65 Dark_Falcon

[Embedded content]

:P

67 blueraven  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:42:05pm

re: #65 Dark_Falcon

[Embedded content]

I think you have your tags mixed up on that one. That was a republican movie.

68 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:42:14pm

And then there's the statistics behind this whole "scandal" that the wingnuts are loathe to acknowledge, like the fact that Brian Terry's death was actually the fifth death of a Border Patrol agent for the year of 2010.

69 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:42:16pm
70 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:42:53pm

re: #65 Dark_Falcon

You mean like by increasing the disparity between wealthy and the rest until the domestic market basically collapses?

Or maybe you're referring to allowing religious education of students so that they're completely unprepared for the job market?

Maybe you're referring to allowing unchecked pollution that costs far more to clean up than it would have to prevent?

Maybe what you had in mind was deregulated financial markets causing the massive credit crunch we just experienced?

71 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:44:04pm

re: #70 Obdicut

Those liberals flinging tweets aren't explaining themselves and neither am I.

72 Digital Display  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:44:40pm

Good Evening Lizards.. A quiet Saturday night at home watching the Race.. It's just too damn hot to go out..I forgot how much I missed the Oklahoma Summer...Hope everyone is well.. I have some thoughts about F&F I'll share tonight. Meanwhile.. Que the over dramatic music from Gone with the Wind as the Hoopster shakes his fist to the heavens..
I swear as God is my witness I shall not spend another Summer in Oklahoma!
Fade to black
//

73 darthstar  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:44:56pm
74 darthstar  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:47:30pm

One of my favorite RepublicanMovies (can't remember who wrote it) was "The Girl with the Transvaginal Probe"

75 Cap'n Magic  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:48:11pm

Now that ACA has passed and is on its way to implementation, we need to start a countdown clock for Rush Limbaugh's eventual relocation to Costa Rica in 2015.

76 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:48:21pm

re: #73 darthstar

[Embedded content]

I'd rather watch DeForest Kelley; as a matter of fact, I did a couple of days ago in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.

/Damnit, Jim...I'm a doctor, not a political hack!

77 darthstar  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:48:42pm

re: #71 Dark_Falcon

Those liberals flinging tweets aren't explaining themselves and neither am I.

Image: 524241_324171744335116_950814898_n.jpg

78 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:51:21pm

re: #76 SunshineSuperman

79 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:52:59pm

re: #78 Dark_Falcon

[Embedded content]

How droll...

///

80 Varek Raith  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:53:23pm

re: #78 Dark_Falcon

[Embedded content]

Sweden.

81 Varek Raith  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:53:44pm

^I win.

82 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:53:48pm

re: #80 Varek Raith

Sweden.

Malmo.

83 Digital Display  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:53:51pm

re: #78 Dark_Falcon

[Embedded content]

One flew over the GOP nest

84 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:54:25pm

re: #78 Dark_Falcon

The socialist democracies in Europe have greater social mobility than we do right now. Does that give you any pause, any reason to re-examine your assumptions, your logic, any effect on you at all?

85 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:54:43pm

re: #82 Dark_Falcon

Malmo.

What about Malmo, Dark?

86 jaunte  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:54:46pm

re: #80 Varek Raith

Number eight?

87 Varek Raith  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:57:02pm

re: #82 Dark_Falcon

Malmo.

Greece, what your party wants to emulate here.

88 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:57:57pm

re: #85 Obdicut

What about Malmo, Dark?

The way Jews are harassed there, and the growing part of its population that is defiantly anti-Swedish. All of whom are Muslim, but who do, repeat not, represent Islam as a whole or even all Muslims in Malmo. But there are enough such haters to turn the city into a hell-hole.

89 b_sharp  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:58:33pm

re: #84 Obdicut

The socialist democracies in Europe have greater social mobility than we do right now. Does that give you any pause, any reason to re-examine your assumptions, your logic, any effect on you at all?

I see your mobility and raise you billionaires.

re: #86 jaunte

Number eight?

You too.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Wait, who is number two and number three?

90 Varek Raith  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 6:59:33pm

re: #88 Dark_Falcon

The way Jews are harassed there, and the growing part of its population that is defiantly anti-Swedish. All of whom are Muslim, but who do, repeat not, represent Islam as a whole or even all Muslims in Malmo. But there are enough such haters to turn the city into a hell-hole.

Murfreesboro.

91 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:02:22pm

re: #87 Varek Raith

Greece, what your party wants to emulate here.

My party? Hah! Does the GOP favor a massive, unaffordable, welfare state? No.

Does the GOP support the kind of restrictive business licensing found in Greece? No.

Do Republicans favor a system where official taxes are high, but everyone evades them? No.

0-3 for three, Varek.

92 Gus  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:02:23pm

re: #88 Dark_Falcon

The way Jews are harassed there, and the growing part of its population that is defiantly anti-Swedish. All of whom are Muslim, but who do, repeat not, represent Islam as a whole or even all Muslims in Malmo. But there are enough such haters to turn the city into a hell-hole.

Jeez dude. How did you get from #RepublicanMovies to this?

93 Varek Raith  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:02:35pm

Putting the home button right below the close button FF?
GENIUS!

94 jaunte  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:02:55pm

re: #89 b_sharp

Kazakhstan has five billionaires?

95 Mocking Jay  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:03:12pm

re: #93 Varek Raith

Putting the home button right below the close button FF?
GENIUS!

Huh? What're you using?

96 Varek Raith  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:03:58pm

re: #95 It's a cookbook!

Huh? What're you using?

Firefox v13.0.1

97 jaunte  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:04:05pm

Poppies & natural gas, I guess.

98 Mocking Jay  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:05:13pm

re: #96 Varek Raith

Firefox v13.0.1

Ahhh.

99 jaunte  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:05:42pm
100 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:06:47pm

re: #90 Varek Raith

Murfreesboro.

Umm, no.

While we may have some homegrown bigots down there (I live in Nashville) that oppose the construction of the new Islamic Center of Murfreesboro, they are not representative of what is, by and large, a college city.

IIRC, most of the really strident foes that were all in the news were from out-of-state.

101 Varek Raith  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:07:14pm

Any who, Wasteland 2.
WOOT!

102 Varek Raith  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:07:36pm

re: #100 SunshineSuperman

Umm, no.

While we may have some homegrown bigots down there (I live in Nashville) that oppose the construction of the new Islamic Center of Murfreesboro, they are not representative of what is, by and large, a college city.

IIRC, most of the really strident foes that were all in the news were from out-of-state.

My bad.
Retracted.

103 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:08:44pm

re: #88 Dark_Falcon

Dude, stop believing everything you read in the Daily Mail. Malmo is not a hellhole. Are you basing this off of crime rate or something? Because Malmo still has a lower crime rate than most US cities, so are US cities all ultrahellholes?

Furthermore, we were talking about economics, and you're suddenly going on a tirade about immigrants. That is pretty much interactions with right-wingers in a nutshell for me recently. I ask you to consider what it means that the Nordic countries have greater social mobility than we do-- that the dream of growing up poor and becoming wealthy is truer over there than it is here-- and you respond with sensationalist crap about immigrants.

Do you not realize how that makes you look? Like you can't talk about the economy, so you're going to scaremonger about immigrants?

104 jaunte  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:10:47pm
105 Interesting Times  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:13:37pm

re: #71 Dark_Falcon

Those liberals flinging tweets aren't explaining themselves and neither am I.

For satirical humor to work, it needs to do two things:

1) Mock the powerful, not the powerless
2) Have a basis in reality.

"Liberal" humor does these things, "conservative" humor does not.

106 Digital Display  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:13:48pm

re: #96 Varek Raith

Firefox v13.0.1

FireFox has really started pissing me off the last year or so..It will install an update and reboot my browser in the middle of the night.. I may have a dozen tabs open of stuff I was checking out and it's all gone in the morning with a cutie little welcome message for the new version of FireFox.. Pisses me off that I don't get to choose the time and place of the upgrade..
I thought maybe it was a setting so I searched help, ' How do I stop you from fucking with my Internet Browser? ' No search results were found..

107 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:14:01pm

re: #102 Varek Raith

My bad.
Retracted.

No prob...that's not to say there aren't plenty of bigots and racists around here, because there are. But, a lot of the major opposition to the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro has been ginned up and stoked by the usual (carpetbagging) suspects.

108 b_sharp  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:15:11pm

List of countries by GDP
Note the EU.

List of countries by economic freedom.
Note the 'socialism' inherent in the countries above the US.

109 Gus  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:16:41pm

re: #106 Digital Display

FireFox has really started pissing me off the last year or so..It will install an update and reboot my browser in the middle of the night.. I may have a dozen tabs open of stuff I was checking out and it's all gone in the morning with a cutie little welcome message for the new version of FireFox.. Pisses me off that I don't get to choose the time and place of the upgrade..
I thought maybe it was a setting so I searched help, ' How do I stop you from fucking with my Internet Browser? ' No search results were found..

[Link: support.mozilla.org...]

110 b_sharp  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:17:18pm

re: #106 Digital Display

FireFox has really started pissing me off the last year or so..It will install an update and reboot my browser in the middle of the night.. I may have a dozen tabs open of stuff I was checking out and it's all gone in the morning with a cutie little welcome message for the new version of FireFox.. Pisses me off that I don't get to choose the time and place of the upgrade..
I thought maybe it was a setting so I searched help, ' How do I stop you from fucking with my Internet Browser? ' No search results were found..

'Recently Closed Tabs' in your History.

111 Digital Display  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:18:02pm

re: #109 Gus

Thanks Bro..

112 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:20:00pm

re: #92 Gus

Jeez dude. How did you get from #RepublicanMovies to this?

Tribalism is a helluva drug...

/

113 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:22:36pm

re: #105 Interesting Times

For satirical humor to work, it needs to do two things:

1) Mock the powerful, not the powerless
2) Have a basis in reality.

"Liberal" humor does these things, "conservative" humor does not.

I don't agree with that first one. It can be very funny to mock a buffoon whom you don't like, regardless of their social status.

114 Gus  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:23:27pm

re: #112 SunshineSuperman

Tribalism is a helluva drug...

/

Yeah. Here I thought that Sweden was this oppressive neo-right-wing puppet state of the USA that set-up Julian Assange on false charges leaving him no choice but to seek refuge in the ideal nation of Ecuador.

//

115 jaunte  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:23:40pm

re: #113 Dark_Falcon

I think Mitt Romney would agree.

116 Gus  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:24:22pm
117 b_sharp  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:24:45pm

re: #91 Dark_Falcon

My party? Hah! Does the GOP favor a massive, unaffordable, welfare state? No.

Does the GOP favour concentrating the wealth in the hands of a few and pushing a fantasy about trickle down economics?

Does the GOP support the kind of restrictive business licensing found in Greece? No.

Does the GOP support the removal of all restrictions on business and expect environmental impacts to be borne by everyone but the business?

Do Republicans favor a system where official taxes are high, but everyone evades them? No.

Do Republicans favour a system where companies making record profits get publicly funded subsidies and are allowed to moonscape the Earth?

0-3 for three, Varek.

118 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:26:43pm

re: #113 Dark_Falcon

I don't agree with that first one. It can be very funny to mock a buffoon whom you don't like, regardless of their social status.

Then it's not satire, it's just making fun of someone who might be worse off then you.

Which makes you look like a dick (much like His Mittness).

Don't be a dick.

119 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:26:47pm

re: #117 b_sharp

You brought up Greece. None of your counters are in play there. There are therefore waved off.

120 Varek Raith  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:26:49pm

re: #91 Dark_Falcon

Austerity measures.
Greece has proven they don't work.
NEXT!
:P

121 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:27:33pm

re: #49 It's a cookbook!

Had anyone but the government sold those guns these people would be screaming at us to respect their rights.

The Feds never sold any guns, nor did they pose as gun sellers or buyers.

The error on the part of the ATF was to encourage private sellers who reported concerns about some buyers to continue to sell them guns with no questions asked of them. These "straw buyers" who were buying large quantities of semi-automatic tactical (assault weapons/rifles is now a four letter word after the expired ban) rifles like AK-47 variants and paying "with paper bags full of cash" were of course only buying them to resell them across the border at a profit.

The ATF collected all the information on these sales, the buyers I.D. along with the serial numbers of the guns in the hopes of tracking them and identifying the "real" purchasers and finding out the methods used to get them across the border in quantity.

The "glitch" came when after they had collected quite a lot of data on these "straw buyers" and presented it to the U.S. Attorneys office the Attorneys office told them to go fly a kite more or less. No laws had been broken in their opinion, or at least not blatantly enough to get a conviction in a very pro-gun state like Arizona.

Which of course begs the question of what the ATF could have possibly done to stop these sales in the first place. Sure some of the licensed sellers probably would not have continued to make sales to people they thought suspicious without the ATF telling them it was ok, but other dealers certainly would have picked up the slack anyway.

If you are not a felon and have no public record of mental disease you can buy as many rifles as you want in this country and no one can stop you. At best the ATF could have "advised" the dealers not to sell to these people and then gone and interviewed them to try to scare them into leaving the business "since we know what you are doing."

However if the dealers wanted to keep selling and the buyers wanted to keep buying there is not one damn thing the ATF could have done about it. Not without the ability to show criminal intent, something that has to be eventually determined in court, and that is completely impossible while the U.S. Attorneys office refuses to even indict any of them.

122 Mocking Jay  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:28:09pm

re: #121 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

Thanks. We went over that already.

123 Varek Raith  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:28:41pm

re: #91 Dark_Falcon

Also!
Your party fully supports corps doing everything possible in order to avoid taxes.

124 Gus  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:31:15pm
125 b_sharp  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:31:32pm

re: #119 Dark_Falcon

You brought up Greece. None of your counters are in play there. There are therefore waved off.

My point is that the opposite of what you pointed out and what the GOP seems to want, is just as destructive to an economy and a society.

126 Varek Raith  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:31:37pm

Whut.

127 Gus  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:32:28pm

re: #126 Varek Raith

Whut.

I'm Gumby damn it.

128 Varek Raith  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:34:10pm

re: #127 Gus

I'm Gumby damn it.

Okely dokely....
...

129 Mocking Jay  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:34:15pm
130 Gus  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:39:43pm

re: #128 Varek Raith

Okely dokely...
...

[Link: www.dailymotion.com...]

131 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:41:47pm

re: #120 Varek Raith

Austerity measures.
Greece has proven they don't work.
NEXT!
:P

Greece has also shown that severe austerity creates an incubator for national socialist sentiment. Any student of history should hear a rhyme between the rising support for Golden Dawn and post Versailles Treaty Germany.

132 jaunte  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:41:55pm

Thump Whip reviews Peggy Noonan:

Now that we’re all being herded into Soviet gulags because we can see the doctor, there’s trouble afoot.
Do you see it? Can you hear it? The foul wind, it blows. The clouds chafe, then they scatter. Like the weather. ‘I used to like the weather,’ he thought. A baleful dog barks. It bales. The crow hiccups. ‘Don’t ever tell a Navy man he’s had too much to drink’ it says. She is dying, because I loved her too much. I HAD TO KILL HER. The Supreme Court, they said. That’s what they all say.

Noonan: Obama Has a Good Day
But liberty has a bad one

133 Interesting Times  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:44:17pm

Why does the GOP hate the founding fathers? :P

134 Jan Smiddy  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:48:34pm

To the tune of Love machine. With apologies to the Miracles. 

We're just a lie machine
And I don't care for nobody but me
A howling outrage machine
And I don't want media to go looking at Mitt

 I think it's high time you knew Whenever I think of Obama
My rattled brain blows a fuse 
When I think of new lies
My meter starts to rise 
And I become more outraged 
Snorting crank up my nose
When I'm thinking of you 
Electricity starts to flow 
And my ugly meter starts to glow

Oh baby, just an angry machine
And I don't work for nobody but us
Just a squealing nasty hissing machine
And I don't work for nobody but liars

135 BongCrodny  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:53:34pm

So there's this little video store across the river from where I live.

They've got two copies of Atlas Shrugged there.

I've been in that store maybe 15-20 times over the past three months, and I have yet to see either of those suckers off the shelf.

136 Varek Raith  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:58:17pm

re: #135 BongCrodny

So there's this little video store across the river from where I live.

They've got two copies of Atlas Shrugged there.

I've been in that store maybe 15-20 times over the past three months, and I have yet to see either of those suckers off the shelf.

FREE MARKET!!!

137 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:58:56pm

re: #88 Dark_Falcon

The way Jews are harassed there, and the growing part of its population that is defiantly anti-Swedish. All of whom are Muslim, but who do, repeat not, represent Islam as a whole or even all Muslims in Malmo. But there are enough such haters to turn the city into a hell-hole.

Every single "defiantly anti-Swedish" person in Malmo is muslim?

Have you every been there, taken a survey, read such a survey? Actually to make the "All of whom" claim it would have to be a census instead of a survey. So what's the basis for the claim.

Also, what does defiantly anti-Swedish even mean? They don't like Whale? They don't like ABBA? They don't like meatballs?

138 Only The Lurker Knows  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 7:59:29pm

Night Lizards. Please be aware. That, yes, LEO's and our Military play an important part in our lives, but there are others who also place all just as much on the line and in the end, give their all. They are called the Merchant Marine and Long Haul Drivers as well as others.

To my fellow Seaman and the long haul truckers that bring us our daily goods.

May the Deity of Your Choice Smile Down Upon You.

139 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 8:02:30pm

re: #138 Bubblehead II

My grandpa was an engineer in Liberty Ships all throughout the war. Got two shot out from under him. Merchant Marine. He was happy as a clam there, too.

140 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 8:06:18pm

re: #139 Obdicut

My grandpa was an engineer in Liberty Ships all throughout the war. Got two shot out from under him. Merchant Marine. He was happy as a clam there, too.

He was lucky to survive that. The cold of the North Atlantic often meant heavy casualties among those who escaped a sinking ship, unless another ship was alongside to take them off. But the U-Boat menace meant that this was not allowed on Atlantic convoy runs.

141 Varek Raith  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 8:07:36pm

My grandfather was the cook on this ship. He loved it. Later went on to be the head baker at the Food Lion in Orange county.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

142 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 8:17:37pm

re: #140 Dark_Falcon

I don't know the circumstances of one sinking. In the other, they successfully got to the lifeboats and were picked up after the engagement.

143 b_sharp  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 8:24:26pm

Grrnight.

As Bubblehead II says; (paraphrase)

May the deity of your choice not crap in your cornflakes.

144 Interesting Times  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 8:25:24pm
145 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 8:35:56pm

re: #12 Dark_Falcon

That isn't just stupid, its a goddamned lie! Yes, "Fast and Furious" was poorly planned and executed, but there is absolutely no evidence to suggest the ATF actually sold any weapon to any person.

Good, now can you explain what about F&F was poorly planned and executed? Earlier you made the following claim about the program:

The basic fact of "Fast and Furious", whatever else is true, is that the ATF fucked up badly and people got killed because of it.

Now a new set of facts about the program has come to light:

Customers can legally buy as many weapons as they want in Arizona as long as they're 18 or older and pass a criminal background check. There are no waiting periods and no need for permits, and buyers are allowed to resell the guns. "In Arizona," says Voth, "someone buying three guns is like someone buying a sandwich."

By 2009 the Sinaloa drug cartel had made Phoenix its gun supermarket and recruited young Americans as its designated shoppers or straw purchasers. Voth and his agents began investigating a group of buyers, some not even old enough to buy beer, whose members were plunking down as much as $20,000 in cash to purchase up to 20 semiautomatics at a time, and then delivering the weapons to others.

The agents faced numerous obstacles in what they dubbed the Fast and Furious case. (They named it after the street-racing movie because the suspects drag raced cars together.) Their greatest difficulty by far, however, was convincing prosecutors that they had sufficient grounds to seize guns and arrest straw purchasers. By June 2010 the agents had sent the U.S. Attorney's office a list of 31 suspects they wanted to arrest, with 46 pages outlining their illegal acts. But for the next seven months prosecutors did not indict a single suspect.

On Dec. 14, 2010, a tragic event rewrote the narrative of the investigation. In a remote stretch of Peck Canyon, Ariz., Mexican bandits attacked an elite U.S. Border Patrol unit and killed an agent named Brian Terry. The attackers fled, leaving behind two semiautomatic rifles. A trace of the guns' serial numbers revealed that the weapons had been purchased 11 months earlier at a Phoenix-area gun store by a Fast and Furious suspect.

So, with the fog of uncertainty lifted, will you bother trying to explain and defend your earlier assertion that the ATF screwed up? It appears there was nothing ATF could do to stop the sales and that they tried to have the suspects arrested only to be blocked by prosecutors, exactly what did ATF do that got people killed?

The fact is that it's the laws that need changing. The same law that the Congressional Republicans refuse to even discuss as being part of the problem are what hamstrung the ATF and prevented them from arresting the straw buyers and attempting to interdict the weapons.

146 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 8:45:24pm

re: #145 goddamnedfrank

Good, now can you explain what about F&F was poorly planned and executed? Earlier you made the following claim about the program:

Now a new set of facts about the program has come to light:

So, with the fog of uncertainty lifted, will you bother trying to explain and defend your earlier assertion that the ATF screwed up? It appears there was nothing ATF could do to stop the sales and that they tried to have the suspects arrested only to be blocked by prosecutors, exactly what did ATF do that got people killed?

The fact is that it's the laws that need changing. The same law that the Congressional Republicans refuse to even discuss as being part of the problem are what hamstrung the ATF and prevented them from arresting the straw buyers and attempting to interdict the weapons.

The ATF, as has been noted, advised dealers skeptical about a number of guns sales to let the sales through (merchants may refuse to sell someone a gun, so long as that refusal is not based on the prospective buyer's race, religion, country of origin, sexual orientation...). That was clearly a mistake and it was a mistake made several times.

Moreover, the ATF kept the watching things go through without sounding the alarm for months after it had become clear their plan to bust straw buyers was not working. They did not go to a Plan B, but instead rode Plan A down in flames.

147 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 8:49:38pm

re: #146 Dark_Falcon

The ATF, as has been noted, advised dealers skeptical about a number of guns sales to let the sales through (merchants may refuse to sell someone a gun, so long as that refusal is not based on the prospective buyer's race, religion, country of origin, sexual orientation...). That was clearly a mistake and it was a mistake made several times.

Has this been proven to be true?

Moreover, the ATF kept the watching things go through without sounding the alarm for months after it had become clear their plan to bust straw buyers was not working. They did not go to a Plan B, but instead rode Plan A down in flames.

Watching was Plan B. Getting prosecutors to go after straw buyers was Plan A, but because the straw sale laws are basically toothless, that wasn't possible. So you mean they should have gone to plan C.

What was plan C?

What do you think about the lax gun control laws that allow these sales? Shouldn't we be focusing on how to make those stronger, rather than trying to pin the blame on a scapegoat?

148 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 8:57:48pm

re: #72 Digital Display

MUCH nicer in Cali!
*waves*

149 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 8:58:28pm

What exactly were they supposed to tell gun shop owners when they fired off emails noting their "concern"? Besides perhaps "If you don't feel comfortable, don't do it."? They couldn't tell them it was illegal, because it was perfectly legal. They couldn't tell them that the men doing the buy were criminals, because they weren't. And if they kept refusing to sell, eventually one of two things was going to happen: Either the cartels would notice the red flags and deduce that ATF was watching the shops or they might actually try to accuse the shop owners of being discriminatory for refusing to sell to certain clientele.

150 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:02:28pm

re: #147 Obdicut

Has this been proven to be true?

Watching was Plan B. Getting prosecutors to go after straw buyers was Plan A, but because the straw sale laws are basically toothless, that wasn't possible. So you mean they should have gone to plan C.

What was plan C?

What do you think about the lax gun control laws that allow these sales? Shouldn't we be focusing on how to make those stronger, rather than trying to pin the blame on a scapegoat?

No, because no real trafficking law is going to pass right now. You'd need to design a bill that would not burden lawful purchase of firearms and could not (not would not, but could not) act as a step towards gun registration. I have no idea how that would be done.

Moreover, an effort to actually get something done is often politically unproductive in an election year, especially with people so polarized nowadays. A purist message is a much easier sell, electorally.

151 jaunte  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:05:08pm

re: #149 Targetpractice

"Why do you need 600 rifles?"
...
"Can't decide."

152 Mocking Jay  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:07:18pm

re: #150 Dark_Falcon

Wait wait wait. So the ATF sat back and allowed people to do something perfectly legal? Is that what they fucked up here?

153 Kronocide  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:13:09pm

re: #152 It's a cookbook!

Wait wait wait. So the ATF sat back and allowed people to do something perfectly legal? Is that what they fucked up here?

Government profiling, bad.

Average citizens profiling, good.

154 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:15:50pm

re: #150 Dark_Falcon

No, because no real trafficking law is going to pass right now. You'd need to design a bill that would not burden lawful purchase of firearms and could not (not would not, but could not) act as a step towards gun registration. I have no idea how that would be done.

Moreover, an effort to actually get something done is often politically unproductive in an election year, especially with people so polarized nowadays. A purist message is a much easier sell, electorally.

No trafficking law is gonna pass because to first take it up, Congress would have to acknowledge that lax gun laws in states like Arizona are making such trafficking a perfectly legal matter.

155 Obdicut  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:16:00pm

re: #150 Dark_Falcon

No, because no real trafficking law is going to pass right now. You'd need to design a bill that would not burden lawful purchase of firearms and could not (not would not, but could not) act as a step towards gun registration. I have no idea how that would be done.

It would be impossible to do, without 'burdening' lawful purchases of firearms. So, you're basically against the sort of laws that would stop the straw sales.

So you'd want the ATF to do what, exactly, in the absence of those stronger laws?

156 jaunte  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:17:11pm

re: #153 Kronocide

Government profiling, bad.

Average citizens profiling, good.

Private sector vigilante anti-gun-traffickers.

157 Mocking Jay  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:17:13pm

re: #155 Obdicut

It would be impossible to do, without 'burdening' lawful purchases of firearms. So, you're basically against the sort of laws that would stop the straw sales.

So you'd want the ATF to do what, exactly, in the absence of those stronger laws?

Turn a blind eye. Completely. Better off had they known nothing.

158 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:20:57pm

re: #155 Obdicut

It would be impossible to do, without 'burdening' lawful purchases of firearms. So, you're basically against the sort of laws that would stop the straw sales.

So you'd want the ATF to do what, exactly, in the absence of those stronger laws?

Nothing. I want them to go through the motions and not get any big ideas.

159 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:22:43pm

re: #158 Dark_Falcon

Nothing. I want them to go through the motions and not get any big ideas.

So then what exactly was wrong about F&F?

160 blueraven  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:22:43pm

sad

161 bratwurst  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:22:45pm

re: #78 Dark_Falcon

DF, you DO realize that by using the term "donk" for Democrats you are honoring an idiot who spends every day of his life insulting Charles and insulting YOU on the stalker blog...right?

You may not love all of the liberals here on LGF these days, but I seriously doubt any of us will be moving to a different website to talk shit about you they way a lot of your former conservative friends have. Something to think about.

162 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:24:18pm

re: #146 Dark_Falcon

The ATF, as has been noted, advised dealers skeptical about a number of guns sales to let the sales through (merchants may refuse to sell someone a gun, so long as that refusal is not based on the prospective buyer's race, religion, country of origin, sexual orientation...). That was clearly a mistake and it was a mistake made several times.

Even if that's true, and it hasn't been proven, what makes you think the ATF legally could have advised the merchants not to let the sales go through? That could easily be construed as illegal tortious interference by either the merchant or purchaser, a violation of their rights. ATF doesn't have the kind of power you think they do to step all over an otherwise legal sales contract, especially with regards to non-NFA firearms, the potential negative consequences are too great. If it had come out that certain merchants were afraid to make bulk sales because an agent opposed legal sales then that would have been the story. This line of reasoning also seeks to absolve the merchant from any responsibility by allowing them to foist it all off on a shackled and bound ATF with a simple phone call. The merchants could have said no at any time, instead they chose to take the cash.

This is why I really find Issa's lies and your repetition of them to be so intellectually disingenuous, it only takes a couple minutes of thought to realize that as far as the Republican party is concerned, there was literally no correct move for ATF to make.

163 Mich-again  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:25:31pm

To eliminate the unlawful gun trafficking that Fast and Furious exposed, we'd need better gun laws and/or a lot more BATF agents. The right is guilty of Kill the Messenger here.

164 Mocking Jay  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:25:38pm

re: #161 bratwurst

DF, you DO realize that by using the term "donk" for Democrats you are honoring an idiot who spends every day of his life insulting Charles and insulting YOU on the stalker blog...right?

You may not love all of the liberals here on LGF these days, but I seriously doubt any of us will be moving to a different website to talk shit about you they way a lot of your former conservative friends have. Something to think about.

Have pity for those who fail at constructing funny jokes. Show mercy, friend.

165 jaunte  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:28:55pm

New conservative forum outrage on the horizon: is Obama celebrating the 4th in Paris?
[Link: www.google.com...]

166 Mocking Jay  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:29:51pm
167 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:30:12pm

re: #162 goddamnedfrank

That's one of those scenarios that gets to me. Imagine that word got out that the ATF was ordering gun shop owners not to do sales with people using large amounts of money. The sales are perfectly legal, the buyers are not criminals, and there's no way to prove that the money is anything but legitimate. The ATF would be roasted on a spit just to curb the gun lobby, who would be gravely telling every gun owner in America that if the ATF can order a gun shop to deny a guy trying to buy $20,000 worth of guns today, it might be $2,000 tomorrow, $200 the day after. It wouldn't matter if you could prove that the purchases were meant for the cartels, the "precedent" would be all that mattered.

168 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:30:45pm

re: #162 goddamnedfrank

it only takes a couple minutes of thought to realize that as far as the Republican party is concerned, there was literally no correct move for ATF to make.

re: #158 Dark_Falcon

Nothing. I want them to go through the motions and not get any big ideas.

Exactly my point. Nice to see you admit it though.

169 Mich-again  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:31:03pm

re: #165 jaunte

New conservative forum outrage on the horizon: is Obama celebrating the 4th in Paris?

That one pegs the ragemeter index factor..

170 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:32:38pm

re: #167 Targetpractice

That's one of those scenarios that gets to me. Imagine that word got out that the ATF was ordering gun shop owners not to do sales with people using large amounts of money. The sales are perfectly legal, the buyers are not criminals, and there's no way to prove that the money is anything but legitimate. The ATF would be roasted on a spit just to curb the gun lobby, who would be gravely telling every gun owner in America that if the ATF can order a gun shop to deny a guy trying to buy $20,000 worth of guns today, it might be $2,000 tomorrow, $200 the day after. It wouldn't matter if you could prove that the purchases were meant for the cartels, the "precedent" would be all that mattered.

This goes to what has main suspicion for a long time, that the ATF's real crime in the eyes of the Republicans was an attempt to do anything about the problem.

Everything else is smoke and mirrors.

171 Mocking Jay  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:34:00pm

re: #170 goddamnedfrank

This goes to what has main suspicion for a long time, that the ATF's real crime in the eyes of the Republicans was an attempt to do anything about the problem.

Everything else is smoke and mirrors.

But but but... there are dead Mexicans, and they really really really care about them! Can't you hear how much they care, Frank? Can't you, you heartless bastard?!?

172 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:34:25pm

re: #170 goddamnedfrank

This goes to what has main suspicion for a long time, that the ATF's real crime in the eyes of the Republicans was an attempt to do anything about the problem.

Everything else is smoke and mirrors.

Hell, listen to the narrative. When they're not weeping crocodile tears over Brian Terry, they're pointing fingers at Holder and Obama accusing them of trying to create a "crisis" in order to push harsher gun-control laws.

173 jaunte  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:34:53pm

re: #167 Targetpractice

I doubt if the news that the ATF was coordinating with the Mexican government to intercept cartel gun buyers would be greeted with any great joy either.

174 freetoken  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:35:30pm

The skill of the headline writer is not to be undervalued. This one roped me in:

Sex grooming cases spark racial tensions

However, the contents is likely to add fuel to a fire that some want to dramatically fuel:

She was lonely in the way only an adolescent girl can be: No friends, no boyfriend, not much of a relationship with her parents. So she felt special when a man decades older paid attention to her, bought her trinkets, gave her free booze.

Then he took her to a dingy room above a kebab shop and said she had to give something back in return. His demands grew: Not just sex with him, but with his friends. It went on for years, until police charged nine men with running a sex ring with underage girls.

The story of Girl A, as she became known in court, is tragic by any measure, but it has also become explosive. Because there is no getting around it: The girls are white, and the men who used them as sex toys are Asian Muslims, mostly Pakistanis raised in Britain. And it's not just Rochdale -- roughly a dozen other cases of Asian Muslim men accused of grooming young white girls for sex are slowly moving to trial across northern England, involving up to several hundred girls in all.

In today's Britain, which prides itself on being a tolerant and integrated society, the case has stripped away the skin to expose the racial sores festering beneath. It is also feeding an already raw anger against the country's Asian Muslim minority, in a movement led by far right groups at a time when the economy is stalled.

"You can't get away from the race element," says prosecutor Nazir Afzal, a British Muslim with family roots in Pakistan who ended several years of official indifference to the girls' plight and finally brought the perpetrators to trial. "It's the elephant in the room."

[...]

175 researchok  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:39:20pm

re: #174 freetoken

Non controversial is always good.
.

176 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:47:23pm

Basically the F&F critics want to believe that the ATF's "crime" was that it obeyed the law, that it let guns "walk" because it was legally restricted from seizing them. And that Brian Terry could only have died by 2 of the 2,000 guns tracked by the program, rather than by 2 of the 68,000 seized by the Mexican police in the same year that were identified as being manufactured in the US.

177 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:51:23pm

What would really be needed for a honest compromise on a firearms issue?

What would be needed was a sense among those coming to the table that: "I know what I really need to secure and if I get those things this deal will be good enough and I will hold to it."

That sort of sentiment can sometimes be achieved in politics but it almost never lasts. Politics attracts the ambitious and there is always the temptation for the ambitious to push for that extra regulation to be repealed or to impose that extra requirement in order to build up a power base.

It is also true on the matter of firearms that there are large organizations that need conflict with an enemy to maintain their employees and funding. The head of the 'Special Office' never wants to admit that his office has won the battle it was set up to win, because if the battle is won, the Special Office is likely to be disbanded. And being retired after having won holds no attraction for the ambitious. Better to DERP and keep the cash and publicity flowing.

178 freetoken  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:53:21pm

You think right-wing hysteria is limited to online cult sites and targeted cable television networks?

The Augusta Chronicle, which Wikipedia describes as one of the oldest continuous newspapers in the US and the leading newspaper in the Augusta, GA metropolitan area, runs this "letter to the editor":

This isn't over, Democrats

By David B. Caudle
Grovetown

To date, the only true words spoken from our con-artist in chief, President Obama, was shortly before the 2008 election when he said, “We are five days away from fundamentally changing this nation.” And that he has, with the help and support of the chief justice of the Supreme Court.

The court’s decisions last week, regarding the Arizona illegal-immigration law and with Obamacare, can be described only as heinous. The most disgusting aspect of these decisions is that the supposedly “conservative” chief justice, John Roberts, cast the deciding approval vote for each of these decisions.

So just where exactly is there any limit for what the these tyrants – our federal government – can force you to do? Forcing you to purchase? For now, the answer to that question is that there is no limit.

The American people were sold the biggest pig-in-a-poke in the history of this country back in 2008 and they bought it hook, line and sinker – this, at a time when millions were losing their jobs; [...]

They instead concentrated not on job creation and the economy, but on the long-held communist tenet of government health care – i.e., Obamacare. They rammed this vile lie down the unwilling throats of the American people with every dishonest, unethical, deceiving ploy in their arsenal.
Rejoice while you can, comrades. Your D-Day is but a few months away. You think the 2010 elections were something? Well, they were historic – Democrats routed out of office on national, state and local levels. More than 700 offices.

But that election will pale in comparison to this upcoming one. The Democratic Party is persona non grata, and has ensured itself a place in American history as the poster child of tyranny. They are constitutional usurpers – the “enemy within” personified.

This ain’t over!

Emphasis added. It's a well crafted "letter" - too well crafted. Rolling up many of the buzz phrases of the wingnut right, this type of "letter" would not have been published, I propose, by many of the leading newspapers in the major cities in this country as it is out of bounds of good taste, or what once was good taste. Today, in the internet-enabled age of hate, more and more of these type of "letters" will pop up in what would have been thought of as more staid outlets of years gone past.

179 jaunte  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:55:30pm

re: #177 Dark_Falcon

This is a good description of the NRA.

It is also true on the matter of firearms that there are large organizations that need conflict with an enemy to maintain their employees and funding. The head of the 'Special Office' never wants to admit that his office has won the battle it was set up to win, because if the battle is won, the Special Office is likely to be disbanded. And being retired after having won holds no attraction for the ambitious. Better to DERP and keep the cash and publicity flowing.

Their membership is kept continually suspicious, and not just of Democrats.

"I have not heard Mitt Romney comment on 2nd Amendment rights. How strongly is he supportive?" asked Allen Swanson, 59, a retired traffic engineer from Bloomington, Ill., who is a target shooter and occasional hunter. He was chatting with two friends outside the convention hall Thursday, waiting for it to open.

"How come he won't say where's he's at?" said one of the other men, Leonard Beach, a 47-year-old carpenter and NRA life member from Heyworth, Ill. Gun rights, he said, "should be part of the conversation" in the presidential campaign.
[Link: articles.latimes.com...]

180 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:56:13pm

re: #176 Targetpractice

Basically the F&F critics want to believe that the ATF's "crime" was that it obeyed the law, that it let guns "walk" because it was legally restricted from seizing them. And that Brian Terry could only have died by 2 of the 2,000 guns tracked by the program, rather than by 2 of the 68,000 seized by the Mexican police in the same year that were identified as being manufactured in the US.

What's the old statistic, that for every cockroach you find you can count on there being 100 more hiding behind the walls? If 68,000 guns are being found by Mexican police in a year, the actual number coming in is almost certainly a much larger multiple of that.

181 freetoken  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:58:38pm

That AP story on "Sex grooming" is starting to pop up in American news outlets, and sure enough the first comment online is a ... winner. From the Houston Chronicle (which ran the pictures of the guilty parties):

Sex grooming cases spark racial tensions

SillyWilly2 11:29 PM on June 30, 2012
I can smell them from their pictures.

Stupid, yes, but indicative of what this story can reveal.

182 Varek Raith  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:59:20pm

NRA leadership is dangerously paranoid.

183 freetoken  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 9:59:23pm

Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, the BNP, and the like will get what they want if they work hard enough at it for long enough.

184 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 10:00:30pm

re: #182 Varek Raith

NRA leadership is dangerously paranoid.

Wolverines!

185 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 10:02:16pm

It appears that the GOP attacks on a center right democrat is making them take left positions.re: #38 palomino

........

The RW noise machine has actually convinced a big chunk of the electorate that the fed takes hard working white people money and just hands it out in huge chunks to undeserving and shiftless minorities. ......

They do. That minority is the 1%.

186 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 10:06:44pm

re: #181 freetoken

That AP story on "Sex grooming" is starting to pop up in American news outlets, and sure enough the first comment online is a ... winner. From the Houston Chronicle (which ran the pictures of the guilty parties):

Sex grooming cases spark racial tensions

Stupid, yes, but indicative of what this story can reveal.

The thing is, this story is so far a genuine outrage, as opposed to a fake one. If the underlying outrage is genuine, then frankly it is much easier to build a superstructure of hate upon it.

187 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 10:07:06pm

And now I have to go to bed. I'm just too tired to keep going.

188 freetoken  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 10:36:32pm
189 Kragar  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 10:55:22pm

MST3K - 0605 - Colossus vs the Headhunters

190 CuriousLurker  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 11:02:05pm

re: #174 freetoken

The skill of the headline writer is not to be undervalued. This one roped me in:

Sex grooming cases spark racial tensions

However, the contents is likely to add fuel to a fire that some want to dramatically fuel:

I read about this case a while back. The sad and often overlooked part is that the Manchester police were aware of this since beginning in 2008, but prosecution lawyers didn't want to press charges, which led to even more girls being abused. It wasn't until a new Muslim regional chief of the Crown Prosecution Service was put in charge of the case that it was pressed:

It was in this environment that Girl A lost control one summer night in 2008.

After drinking heavily, the 15-year-old went to the kebab shop in nearby Heywood where she had first met her "boyfriend." She started screaming and busting the place up. When police were called, she told them she had been raped -- repeatedly -- and offered up her semen-stained underwear as proof.

Greater Manchester Police detectives concluded the girl, who was below the age of consent, was telling the truth, but Crown Prosecution Service lawyers recommended against pressing criminal charges, reasoning that the jury might not believe a troubled, hard-drinking, sexually active young girl. The case was quietly dropped after an 11-month inquiry.

The abuse intensified. The ring of predators grew; the circle of victims widened. Eventually there would be at least 47 victims or witnesses.

[...]

They were finally brought to justice after health workers reported a large increase in the number of underage girls in the Rochdale area claiming to have suffered sexual abuse. The next year, Afzal, the new regional chief of the Crown Prosecution Service, reversed the earlier decision by prosecutors and decided to press the case in court, with Girl A at its core.

"It was a no-brainer," Afzal told the Associated Press. "She was immensely credible. And the police now had evidence of a wide network."

I'm not sure why the fact that these monsters were Muslim is germane to the story, aside from whatever tensions are going on there. They weren't claiming to be acting based on anything to do with religion, they were (are) criminal scum, pure & simple. Had they been a group of Russians or Italians would their respective religions have been a focus of the story? I doubt it would have even been mentioned in passing.

191 freetoken  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 11:13:18pm

re: #190 CuriousLurker

I'm not sure why the fact that these monsters were Muslim is germane to the story, aside from whatever tensions are going on there. They weren't claiming to be acting based on anything to do with religion, they were (are) criminal scum, pure & simple. Had they been a group of Russians or Italians would their respective religions have been a focus of the story? I doubt it would have even been mentioned in passing.

But, that is the point. That the article writer emphasized that they were Muslim, and that some of the local reaction is also emphasizing this, is a story itself.

192 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 11:31:22pm

[Link: www.esquire.com...]

A ludicrous Tinker Toy news outlet stamped its tiny feet, and then the assembled mourners over at Andrew Breitbart's Mausoleum Of Unemployables got themselves outraged, and Politico folded like a cheap suit. This should be a caution to any real reporters who work there now, or who may be thinking about working there in the future. Your bosses can be frightened away by a preposterous political grocery flyer, and by a website run by a cargo cult that worships a deceased angry drunk. They do not have your back.

193 freetoken  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 11:37:30pm

Hmmmm.... I think we just had an earthquake.

194 freetoken  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 11:41:27pm
195 Kragar  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 11:42:22pm

re: #194 freetoken

Magnitude 4.8 - BAJA CALIFORNIA, MEXICO

So the earth moved for you to?

196 freetoken  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 11:51:55pm
197 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jun 30, 2012 11:54:52pm
198 AK-47%  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 12:27:40am

"We would know a lot more if Republicans were responsible".

They have such a glowing record of full disclosure, don't they?

/

199 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 12:48:46am

Niman hao, mein scaly drughi!

"I've just been fishing with Salvador Dali. He used a dotted line. He caught every other fish."

A little palate-cleanser, with Chinese sub-titles:

200 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 12:50:41am

By the way, is it just me, or is that fellow channeling Sydney Greenstreet?

201 CuriousLurker  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 12:53:11am

re: #191 freetoken

But, that is the point. That the article writer emphasized that they were Muslim, and that some of the local reaction is also emphasizing this, is a story itself.

Yes, I got your point, I just wanted to elaborate since maybe not everyone who cruises by here & reads stuff will pick up on everything.

202 Kragar  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 12:56:54am

MST3K - 0907 - Hobgoblins

Quite honestly, one of the absolute worst movies ever made, ever

203 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:00:26am

re: #202 Kragar

Ha! I love some terrible movies!

SciFi network - where bad ideas go to die!

204 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:02:03am

So, the folks back east had themselves a bit of weather, I hear.

Got some good chums just outside of DC who are stuck in the dark and the heat. Terrible situation, all around.

205 researchok  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:10:18am

Morning, all.

206 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:11:16am

re: #205 researchok

And to you!

What goes on in the great wide world?

207 researchok  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:15:01am

re: #206 Guanxi88

Not much.

Waiting for Godot, listening to FT's piano bar guy.

All in all, a Sunday morning.

208 researchok  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:15:52am

re: #204 Guanxi88

And another scorcher on tap for today.

209 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:15:59am

re: #207 researchok

Yes, let's go.

Ha! what a hoot that fellow was.

211 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:17:37am

re: #208 researchok

Not stuck in that mess, are you?

It's never an opportune time to lose power, of course, but in the heat, seems to me, is the worst time of all.

When it's cold, there are things one can do to sort of conserve warmth; when it's beastly hot, though, there is a practical limit to what one can accomplish before the situation becomes simply unhygenic.

212 researchok  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:18:57am

re: #211 Guanxi88

Yup, I am.

On days like these, I understand the value of deodorant.

213 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:20:13am

re: #212 researchok

One of the essentials of eve semi-civilized living, seems to me.

My friend in VA says power's expected back in about two days, give or take. I've encouraged her to head up into the hills - it's always a bit cooler there, anyway.

214 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:25:03am

Having endured this gosh-awful South Texas summer without a/c in any form until two days ago - I finally broke down and shelled out the bucks for the system to get fixed - I am amazed at the hardiness of the original settlers of this area.

215 researchok  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:25:12am

re: #213 Guanxi88

I have a feeling it's going to be a long, hot summer.

216 Amory Blaine  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:27:14am

re: #210 researchok

More cities scaling back or eliminating fireworks displays

They're taking our freedums!!!!

217 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:27:48am

re: #215 researchok

It almost always is. Frankly, I'm amazed - and pleased - we haven't yet seen reports of more heat-related deaths. I seem to recall something like 300 folks dying in the heat up in Chicago not too long ago.

218 researchok  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:28:42am

re: #214 Guanxi88

I have no idea how people lived without AC.

Just a couple of days ago there was a program on TV which highlighted how AC changed migration and population patterns in the country.

Texas was one of the big beneficiaries as was California

219 researchok  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:30:14am

re: #216 Amory Blaine

Naw... you can still go to a Walmart parking lot or exit off I95 and buy more than enough fireworks to blow yur hand off or burn your neighbors house down

220 Kragar  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:30:30am

re: #218 researchok

Naw... you can still go to a Walmart parking lot or exit off I95 and buy more than enough fireworks to blow yur hand off or burn your neighbors house down

Fun times, fer sure.

Not in CA. I haven't seen places to buy them out here in years.

221 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:30:37am

Hey, it's all fun and games until someone gets hurt.

Then, it becomes a sport.

222 Amory Blaine  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:31:49am

re: #218 researchok

I remember stories from my great aunt and uncle about how people would sleep in the park in the old days. They never had air and when we slept over we slept on the back porch. Still, I love my air too.

223 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:32:14am

So, I've been trying out this Old Grand-dad 114 bourbon.

Damned fine stuff, I must say, even if a bit powerful.

224 researchok  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:33:36am

re: #220 Kragar

You've been deprived.

You have no idea how big the fireworks business has become on the I65 corridor.

In the south, if you are named Skeeter you are in the business.

Not a whole lot of guys named Chip in the industry, apparently. Maybe up around Boston.

225 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:33:54am

re: #222 Amory Blaine

Down here, where the only thing heavier than the humidity are the clouds of mosquitos, sleeping outdoors or on a sleeping-porch (yes, I've seen those, in different forms, in other climates), is simply not an option.

One just sort of endures as best one can.

Ever see "Key Largo," the scene with Johnny Rocco in the bathtub with the fan? Yeah, I've done that.

226 researchok  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:34:13am

re: #222 Amory Blaine

Give me AC or give me Alaska.

227 Kragar  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:34:54am

Saw the 21 Jump Street movie today. Much funnier than I thought going in.

Case in point.

Deputy Chief Hardy: We're reviving a canceled undercover project from the '80s and revamping it for modern times. The people behind this lack creativity and they've run out of ideas, so what they do now is just recycle shit from the past and hope that nobody will notice.

228 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:35:31am

re: #224 researchok

Nahh....

In Beantown, the guy's named "Mahty," and he gets his stuff from New Hampshire.

229 Amory Blaine  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:35:32am

Mmm baked alaska.

230 Kragar  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:35:45am

re: #224 researchok

You've been deprived.

You have no idea how big the fireworks business has become on the I65 corridor.

In the south, if you are named Skeeter you are in the business.

Not a whole lot of guys named Chip in the industry, apparently. Maybe up around Boston.

Lived in NC for 6 years. We blew the fuck out of some stuff those years.

231 researchok  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:35:47am

re: #225 Guanxi88

Most humid place I've ever been was Houston.

Unbelievable. And if that wasn't enough, I was stunned by the ice skating rink in the Galleria.

232 researchok  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:36:16am

re: #230 Kragar

Bigger and better than ever.

233 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:36:50am

re: #231 researchok

Houston, to my mind, will one day be a puzzlement to archaeologists.

it's like someone took an industrial version of Venice and plunked it down in the middle of a sauna.

234 researchok  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:38:01am

re: #233 Guanxi88

Ain't that the truth.

I was there years ago and I'm told it's gotten worse. If that were possible.

235 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:38:04am

re: #233 Guanxi88

To say nothing of what they'll make of Las Vegas. Such a hodge-podge of architectural styles....

236 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:38:58am

re: #234 researchok

Houston never fails to disappoint.

It is, as a colleague of mine once said: 'Where you go to make your money. Dallas is where you spend it. Keep that straight, and you'll do just fine.'

237 researchok  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:39:46am

re: #235 Guanxi88

Yeah, but Vegas has the Bellagio Buffet and Elvis impersonators.

Houston has trucks on lifters

238 freetoken  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:40:18am

re: #237 researchok

Yeah, but Vegas has the Bellagio Buffet and Elvis impersonators.

239 researchok  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:43:26am

re: #238 freetoken

Even long gone, that's way better than Sigfried and Roy

Or pretty much anything else in Vegas.

240 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:43:46am

A bit of free-association here:

Has anyone else wondered why it is that our buildings - I mean the modern West's structures - all seem to make such ugly ruins? It's almost as if they were put up without any thought at all to permanence or solidity.

Cost of doing it that way, I suppose.....

241 researchok  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:45:18am

re: #240 Guanxi88

Modern buildings are not dsigned to be 'ruins'. They are meant to be knocked down and replaced.

Our world.

242 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:45:59am

I see pictures from Detroit, and my heart breaks. A wonderful city, one of the wonders of post-war America, with beautiful buildings, amazing infrastructure, and all the trimmings, and so much of it has fallen into decay and ruin so very quickly.

It's eerie to think how thin is the veneer of civilization, how quickly it all falls apart for lack of maintenance.

243 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:47:12am

re: #241 researchok

That's just it, though, and I think it speaks to something peculiar in the modern character - we don't seem to intend permanence in our building.

What was once a sort of declaration in stone and steel of a desire to endure has become a temporary lodging house for transient purposes.

244 freetoken  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:47:23am

re: #240 Guanxi88

A bit of free-association here:

Has anyone else wondered why it is that our buildings - I mean the modern West's structures - all seem to make such ugly ruins? It's almost as if they were put up without any thought at all to permanence or solidity.

It's because they were put up without any thought to permanence or solidity.

And the ugly part - I blame the all to influential Brutalism school of architecture for that. They wanted to be so much not like the Neo-classicists that they eschewed anything that might remind them of beauty.

245 researchok  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:47:32am

Look at it this way- our real legacy isn't our buildings.

246 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:48:43am

re: #245 researchok

When we're all long-gone - it happened to far older civilizations than ours - the buildings will be all that remains.

247 researchok  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:50:28am

re: #246 Guanxi88

As beautiful and impressive as Greek and Roman ruins are, their real legacy are their ideas.

248 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:51:20am

And so long as I'm in the whole Der Untergang des Abendlandes mood, let me ask another question:

Am I the only one who begins to suspect that perhaps the technological peak of the West was attained in the late 60's? We went to the freakin' moon and back - now, we just sort of dither about in low-earth orbit.

249 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:52:18am

re: #247 researchok

I'd agree with that, of course, but there's a twist, of course: their ideas we do not possess or comprehend in the same way they did. For much of our history, we have interpreted the Greeks through Roman eyes, and Rome through Christian eyes.

250 researchok  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:53:13am

re: #248 Guanxi88

I would argue communications, the internet, bio/med, etc are at least as important as space travel.

Different, but important.

251 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:54:39am

re: #250 researchok

True, but there is, if I may say so, something essentially Western about exploration.

From the discovery of the New World to the moon-landings - a simple continuum and working-out of the Western ideal of exploration and massive technological projects.

252 researchok  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:54:58am

re: #249 Guanxi88

As is meant to be.

We can only look at the past through our eyes- and build on that. In the future, society will build on our legacy as understood and seen through their eyes.

253 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:56:18am

re: #252 researchok

Which is to say, of course, that these ideas, as adopted and handled by other, later peoples, are comparable to found tools or artifacts of another, earlier people. A bit like a modern-day tribe finding a stone axe of unknown age and origin, and using it to fell trees.

254 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:57:09am

And in the case of the distortion or modification of these ideas, is it not perhaps the most crucial intellectual task to attempt to excavate and peel away the layers of interpretation, to find whatever it was that lay at the bottom of it all?

255 researchok  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:57:29am

re: #251 Guanxi88

Exploration and the need to explore is a human condition, not only a western idea.

The history of the Pacific for example, is about exploration and migrations by peoples who achievements were astonishing

256 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:59:02am

re: #255 researchok

And the Ming emperors destroyed the Fleet of Discovery and ended such efforts.

Part of what makes the West unique, culturally, is that we assume that all peoples at all times share or have shared, or will one day share in, our culture, which we take to be neither more nor less than simple human nature.

Which it is not.

257 researchok  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:59:04am

Alright folks, I'm off. That, and coffee

Realiy calls.

258 Guanxi88  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 1:59:50am

re: #257 researchok

Enjoy. I'm off to snooze a bit before resuming my duties.

259 researchok  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 2:00:58am

re: #256 Guanxi88

Very true- we can pick this up later.

Consider though, the destruction of the fleet was a political response. Exploration brings change- not always welcomed.

260 freetoken  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 2:41:00am
261 freetoken  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 3:38:38am
262 AK-47%  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 4:10:01am

re: #223 Guanxi88

So, I've been trying out this Old Grand-dad 114 bourbon.

Damned fine stuff, I must say, even if a bit powerful.

Pavlov, before he became famous for his experiments with slobbering dogs, proved that the human body can best process alcohol at a 40% solution. Which is why most strong spirits are 80 proof.

Any more and you are wasting alcohol. Any less and you are wasting time...

263 Decatur Deb  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 5:18:12am

re: #248 Guanxi88

And so long as I'm in the whole Der Untergang des Abendlandes mood, let me ask another question:

Am I the only one who begins to suspect that perhaps the technological peak of the West was attained in the late 60's? We went to the freakin' moon and back - now, we just sort of dither about in low-earth orbit.

Baby steps. If we solve fusion, we continue to Lyra.

264 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 5:56:27am

re: #214 Guanxi88

Having endured this gosh-awful South Texas summer without a/c in any form until two days ago - I finally broke down and shelled out the bucks for the system to get fixed - I am amazed at the hardiness of the original settlers of this area.

There's a reason they all look dry and leathery with age.

265 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 6:02:21am

re: #254 Guanxi88

And in the case of the distortion or modification of these ideas, is it not perhaps the most crucial intellectual task to attempt to excavate and peel away the layers of interpretation, to find whatever it was that lay at the bottom of it all?

It's Feline Overlords. All the way down.

266 AK-47%  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 7:00:33am

re: #248 Guanxi88

It was about then that we went from expanding our potential to defending our access to energy resources.

Most recent example involved Congress passing a law that will make it impossible for the US Armed Forces to pursue alternative energy solutions.

They are now required to use the "cheapest" option, which is, at least on the surface, oil

While one of the the chief tasks of the US Armed Forces is in fact to subsidize the cost of foreign petroleum my securing access to it.

That is something that could really put us in a downward spiral if we don't turn it around.

267 darthstar  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 7:09:15am

Mornin' everyone...Happy Sunday. Ooh, and I'm on vacation all this week. Life doesn't completely suck.

268 darthstar  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 7:10:20am

Glad I don't have the TV on...looks like the same shit on the Sunday talk shows...

269 darthstar  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 7:11:20am
270 darthstar  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 7:13:54am

Aw, crap...I'm talking to an empty room...okay, then...here's one more.

271 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 7:16:12am

re: #270 darthstar

"Romneycare is white"? What does that even mean? To me, it looks like a racial insult, although I do not think you intended it to be one.

272 darthstar  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 7:18:11am

re: #271 Dark_Falcon

Of all the leaders in the GOP, McConnell hides his racism worst. That's exactly what I meant.

273 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 7:19:28am

re: #272 darthstar

Of all the leaders in the GOP, McConnell hides his racism worst. That's exactly what I meant.

And on what basis do you conclude Mitch McConnell is racist?

274 darthstar  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 7:24:56am

re: #273 Dark_Falcon

And on what basis do you conclude Mitch McConnell is racist?

His very public and visceral reaction to Obama's election, and his pledge to do absolutely nothing except oppose the president. I don't need to see McConnell in a white robe to form an opinion.

275 darthstar  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 7:25:24am

Racism aside, McConnell is just a fucking asshole.

276 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 7:30:16am

re: #274 darthstar

His very public and visceral reaction to Obama's election, and his pledge to do absolutely nothing except oppose the president. I don't need to see McConnell in a white robe to form an opinion.

That does not prove racism. Severe hostility to Barack Obama could also be sparked by his being from the one-party Democratic city of Chicago, his original naivete on foreign relations and on his left-liberal governing agenda. One does not need to be racist to oppose someone with a leftist voting record who was in the not-too-distant past a member of a socialist third party.

277 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 7:30:58am

Morning all!

Why does this F&F iconization of Brian Terry remind me of Cindy Sheehan?

An officer dies in the line of duty -VERY DANGEROUS DUTY, for which he is well aware. My heart goes out to his family.

Could his death have been averted? This isn't about F&F as much as it is about the Corrupt Vipers Nest known as the War on Drugs.

How is your morning?

278 AK-47%  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 7:32:28am

re: #276 Dark_Falcon

One does not need to be racist to oppose someone with a leftist voting record who was in the not-too-distant past a member of a socialist third party.

I agree, but the opposition to Obama often goes beyond mere political aspects, and those calling him an Islamic Kenyan are really letting their slips show.

279 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 7:34:12am

re: #276 Dark_Falcon

That does not prove racism. Severe hostility to Barack Obama could also be sparked by his being from the one-party Democratic city of Chicago, his original naivete on foreign relations and on his left-liberal governing agenda. One does not need to be racist to oppose someone with a leftist voting record who was in the not-too-distant past a member of a socialist third party.

You are correct, yet any similar hostility to those candidates who believe Creationism should be taught in public school science classes get's a "you are persecuting my religious rights" response.

Between the Dominionists and a Socialist. I'll take the Socialist.

280 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 7:36:23am

re: #278 Expand Your Ground

I agree, but the opposition to Obama often goes beyond mere political aspects, and those calling him an Islamic Kenyan are really letting their slips show.

Those who call Barack Obama an "Islamic Kenyan" are indeed being bigots. Whether they themselves through racial or religious bigotry, or both is less important than the fact that they are bigots.

281 darthstar  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 7:40:22am

re: #276 Dark_Falcon

So what's your excuse? And what socialist third party did President Obama belong to? Alaska Independent Party? No...that was the Palins. Or are you referencing his church with Rev. Wright? (If so, it doesn't surprise me.) It certainly can't be because he's from Chicago...that's also your neck of the woods.

282 darthstar  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 7:44:29am

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

You do know Senator McConnell also questioned Obama's citizenship, don't you? So we're in agreement then...good.

283 darthstar  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 7:57:13am

I never understood people putting Chinese characters on their bodies. I always thought most tattoo places were simply writing "Another idiot who will never know what this means" on them.

284 AK-47%  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 7:57:31am

re: #282 darthstar

If you are going to try to tell me that Obama is not a citizen, then you are either really stupid or very cynical and trying to get the stupid person vote. I find the former sad and laughable but the latter outreight detestable.

285 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 7:58:07am
286 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 7:58:13am

re: #281 darthstar

So what's your excuse? And what socialist third party did President Obama belong to? Alaska Independent Party? No...that was the Palins. Or are you referencing his church with Rev. Wright? (If so, it doesn't surprise me.) It certainly can't be because he's from Chicago...that's also your neck of the woods.

The party was called the "New Party". National Review writer Stanley Kurtz wrote about Obama's joining it a few weeks ago:

Recently obtained evidence from the updated records of Illinois ACORN at the Wisconsin Historical Society now definitively establishes that Obama was a member of the New Party. He also signed a “contract” promising to publicly support and associate himself with the New Party while in office.

Minutes of the meeting on January 11, 1996, of the New Party’s Chicago chapter read as follows:

Barack Obama, candidate for State Senate in the 13th Legislative District, gave a statement to the membership and answered questions. He signed the New Party “Candidate Contract” and requested an endorsement from the New Party. He also joined the New Party.

Consistent with this, a roster of the Chicago chapter of the New Party from early 1997 lists Obama as a member, with January 11, 1996, indicated as the date he joined.

To forestall one potential objection, let me point out that ACORN and the New Party were close allies back in the 1990's and when the New Party went under ACORN retained its records. Thus in order to examine the New Party's data, Kurtz had to look into ACORN's records. The article is not some Fox News anti-ACORN polemic.

287 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 7:59:30am

re: #283 darthstar

[Embedded content]

I never understood people putting Chinese characters on their bodies. I always thought most tattoo places were simply writing "Another idiot who will never know what this means" on them.

Ha, now that's funny!

288 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 8:04:23am

re: #286 Dark_Falcon

The party was called the "New Party". National Review writer Stanley Kurtz wrote about Obama's joining it a few weeks ago:

To forestall one potential objection, let me point out that ACORN and the New Party were close allies back in the 1990's and when the New Party went under ACORN retained its records. Thus in order to examine the New Party's data, Kurtz had to look into ACORN's records. The article is not some Fox News anti-ACORN polemic.

This is about as relevant as people who signed the Communist pledge and became targets for the Red Scare a decade later.

We've moved past the classic Cold War.

Words are ambiguous. The aspects of Socialism that people identify with today are: Equality for diverse populations and a world in which Uber Rich do not live by a different set of rules than the rest of us. And yes, that capital flows. In part, it flows to help the masses.

289 darthstar  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 8:08:29am

re: #286 Dark_Falcon

Also on Breitbart, Twitchy, and TheBlaze. Well, if those respected news orgasmizations say it, it must be twoof.

290 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 8:09:07am

I am going to post one more thing about the New Party that kind of stuck with me. Actually its not about the New Party, but rather about the circumstances that lead to its demise in the Midwest:

At just about this time, however, the fate of the New Party was sealed. The 1997 U.S. Supreme Court decision in Timmons v. Twin Cities Area New Party, which upheld the permissibility of states’ banning cross-party “fusion” endorsements, weakened the New Party’s prospects of influencing elections, and thus resulted in its rapid decline. An undated “Transition Plan” in a folder containing items from 1999 classifies Obama as a politician friendly to the party and recommends sounding him out for membership on the steering committee of a revamped leadership. Yet it was not to be. The Chicago chapter of the New Party dwindled.

Note that SCOTUS did not say that 'fusion' endorsements were unconstitutional. What the Court held was that the United States Constitution is silent on their permissibility. that being the case, the matter was left up the individual states to decide, and in the Midwest that resulted in Democratic and Republican leaders joining forces to block such endorsements and firm up their own control over their respective parties. The New Party fell to a partisan power play.

291 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 8:11:13am

Words are Ambiguous.

This is what many think of Capitalism today. With the constant headlines of the greed of Wall Street and corporations, Socialism seems the logical alternative.

292 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 8:14:04am

re: #288 ggt

Darthstar asked which 3rd party Obama had joined, and I answered him and explained my answer. My post should be seen in that light.

293 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 8:15:03am

re: #292 Dark_Falcon

Darthstar asked which 3rd party Obama had joined, and I answered him and explained my answer. My post should be seen in that light.

Yet, you first used it as an example to be leary of Obama. I counter it is not a good reason. It is old news.

294 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 8:18:12am

re: #293 ggt

Yet, you first used it as an example to be leary of Obama. I counter it is not a good reason. It is old news.

I do indeed see it as a reason to be leery of Obama, but I mostly took the time I did on it to ensure I was not accused of not properly supporting my assertion.

295 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 8:34:21am

re: #286 Dark_Falcon

I'm leery of NRO, given their recent....hiring problems.

296 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 8:35:18am

And now for something completely different.

A man with three buttocks.
Eleven minutes of Dire Straits.

297 HappyWarrior  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 8:39:17am

re: #295 Varek Raith

I'm leery of NRO, given their recent...hiring problems.

Ditto and I googled the New Party because I was curious. It seems pretty harmless to me. Don't know too much about them obviously but I would think being a member of them something different than AIP- a party that actually espouses secessionist rhetoric.

298 Bear  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 8:43:27am

A big Happy Canada Day to all up that way.

299 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 8:44:01am

re: #295 Varek Raith

I'm leery of NRO, given their recent...hiring problems.

I'd answer that by pointing out that Stanley Kurtz has had no charges of speaking to racist organizations lodged against him. Moreover, his style of writing is very different than the overwrought "OUTRAGEOUS OUTRAGE!!1" style. While his writing has sometimes dealt with leftist academic Frances Fox Piven, he has dealt with her career and work in an appropriate manner. For most of the right, she is simply PIVEN! of the "Cloward-Piven strategy" of 1970. Kurtz has been far more honest. He has written on how her views have grown and changed over the years, treating her as a human being instead of a caricature.

I would argue Stanley Kurtz has shown himself free of the charge of bigotry.

300 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 8:52:11am

BBL

301 Kronocide  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 9:09:05am

re: #294 Dark_Falcon

I do indeed see it as a reason to be leery of Obama, but I mostly took the time I did on it to ensure I was not accused of not properly supporting my assertion.

What is the problem with the New Party?

302 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 9:12:46am

bbl

303 Patricia Kayden  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 9:13:13am

So I agree that Fast and Furious sounds like a dumb program because it involves gun trafficking, but wasn't it dumb when Bush started it, or did it only become dumb under the Obama administration?

My understanding is that Holder ended the program once he learned of its existence. This is nothing but Rightwing politics. They care less about "brown people" than they care about gays, Blacks, women's rights, etc. Who are they fooling?

304 Targetpractice  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 9:16:14am

re: #303 Patricia Kayden

So I agree that Fast and Furious sounds like a dumb program because it involves gun trafficking, but wasn't it dumb when Bush started it, or did it only become dumb under the Obama administration?

My understanding is that Holder ended the program once he learned of its existence. This is nothing but Rightwing politics. They care less about "brown people" than they care about gays, Blacks, women's rights, etc. Who are they fooling?

The gullible masses who are getting all their knowledge of the program filtered through the ever "unbiased" mesh of the mainstream media. I've seen report after report that keeps repeating the same falsehood, namely that the program was meant to allow guns to "walk" into Mexico.

305 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 9:17:50am

re: #303 Patricia Kayden

So I agree that Fast and Furious sounds like a dumb program because it involves gun trafficking, but wasn't it dumb when Bush started it, or did it only become dumb under the Obama administration?

My understanding is that Holder ended the program once he learned of its existence. This is nothing but Rightwing politics. They care less about "brown people" than they care about gays, Blacks, women's rights, etc. Who are they fooling?

35-40% of the electorate?

306 AK-47%  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 9:20:01am

re: #303 Patricia Kayden

It is also about guns, and the NRA has made it clear that Obama's complete lack of any action on tightening gun laws is no proof that he is not going to tighten gun laws.

And one of the mosre unfounded allegations concerning F&F is that it was part of a secret plan to ban assault weapons.

307 Patricia Kayden  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 9:20:23am

re: #75 Cap'n Magic
Why all the way in 2015? Wouldn't Obama have already destroyed the country by then?

308 AK-47%  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 9:24:03am

Here's a quick overview of where Rush can go to escape the scourge of universal health care.

309 darthstar  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 9:46:53am

Saw a nice sized thresher shark on my play with the boys...here's a still from the video I took from my phone...Dorsal fin was about six inches, but it was hard to get a shot from the phone with the dogs hounding me to play...yes, I did let Banjo swim with him.Thresher Shark - HMB - 7/1/12

310 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 9:53:03am

Kenyan police: 15 killed, 40 wounded in two church shootings

Two gunmen entered the simple wooden church in the city of Garissa at around 10:15 a.m. Sunday, while two others waited outside, police commander Philip Ndolo said. When the congregation fled the attack inside, they ran straight into another hail of bullets from gunmen outside, he said. At least one grenade was detonated in the attack.

311 AK-47%  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 10:02:18am

re: #310 Killgore Trout

Will not take long before a link is made between persecuted Christians and persons of Kenyan origin...

312 Kronocide  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 10:13:23am

re: #311 Expand Your Ground

Will not take long before a link is made between persecuted Christians and persons of Kenyan origin...

The police were guarding the church because of the increasingly dangerous security situation near the border with Somalia and because Somalia's Islamist militants have made Christian churches a common target.

Never let a crisis go to waste.

313 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 10:17:11am

Maybe Fast and Furious explains why the Obamanites have yet to launch their long-expected roundup of guns and Bibles: The trained gun-grabbers from the ACORN-zombie militia are all in Mexico trying to get back the guns Obama sent to the cartels.
Speaking of bunglers, FEMA has reportedly been working on their double sekrit detention camps for 25 years now, and the camps are still not open to begin processing patriots and dissidents. What is taking so long? Maybe they need some new contractors. How do you bid on these FEMA camp contracts anyway?

314 Kronocide  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 10:19:48am

re: #313 Shiplord Kirel

The Private Sector needs the FEMA Camp contracts, then it will get done right!

315 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 10:25:47am

I've been telling my right-wing friends to look on the bright side: They won't have to buy health insurance if they get sent to FEMA camp!

316 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 10:26:31am

Afternoon Lizardim.

317 Targetpractice  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 10:39:11am

So while demanding "full repeal," Boehner admits the obvious:

Boehner: ‘Parts Of’ Obamacare May Be Good – But Repeal It Fully

But the whole "Largest tax increase in history" bit may have hit a snag:

Romney Complicates GOP Push To Label ‘Obamacare’ A Tax

318 allegro  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 10:39:33am

I was looking up some new recipes - found myself on Pinterest. This cracked me up...

Image: pigs_in_a_blanket.jpg

I hear Mr. Bill, "OH!! Oh noooooo!"

319 Achilles Tang  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 10:39:48am

re: #310 Killgore Trout

And I see the primitives in Mali are now destroying centuries old monuments in the name of Allah, just like the Taliban are wont to do. I guess there aren't enough infidels in Mali to keep them busy, so destroy history instead./

320 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 10:40:16am

re: #298 Bear

A big Happy Canada Day to all up that way.

Thanks.

This year we're also celebrating the bicentenary of the War of 1812.

321 AK-47%  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 10:42:09am

re: #319 Achilles Tang

And I see the primitives in Mali are now destroying centuries old monuments in the name of Allah, just like the Taliban are wont to do. I guess there aren't enough infidels in Mali to keep them busy, so destroy history instead./

Thou shalt make no graven images!

322 AK-47%  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 10:42:47am

re: #320 b_sharp

Thanks.

This year we're also celebrating the bicentenary of the War of 1812.

Youse guys sorta won that one, eh?

323 Targetpractice  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 10:42:54am

re: #320 b_sharp

Thanks.

This year we're also celebrating the bicentenary of the War of 1812.

We'll get you back for burning the White House...someday...soon...just you wait...

//

324 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 10:50:02am

re: #323 Targetpractice

We'll get you back for burning the White House...someday...soon...just you wait...

//

Make sure you do it when Harper is in office.

325 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 10:51:59am

re: #319 Achilles Tang

And I see the primitives in Mali are now destroying centuries old monuments in the name of Allah, just like the Taliban are wont to do. I guess there aren't enough infidels in Mali to keep them busy, so destroy history instead./

...and since it's in Africa and happening to brown people it's only getting headlines because it's a slow news day. Just wait until Apple unveils a new gadget and it'll all be forgotten.

326 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 10:57:05am

Kony 2012!

327 Bob Dillon  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 11:02:27am

FWIW dept. Union Pacific re-opened the Grand Junction to Denver link. We are on the first train (CA Zephyr) through. Lots of burnt out areas along the tracks. Smoke in the canyons to the south of the tracks. Firefighters working - helicopters making drops. Other than that beautiful scenery.

328 aagcobb  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 11:10:13am

In a perfect example of "it takes one to know one," Rupert Murdoch tweeted that Scientology is "something creepy, maybe even evil."

329 AK-47%  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 11:12:24am

re: #328 aagcobb

In a perfect example of "it takes one to know one," Rupert Murdoch tweeted that Scientology is "something creepy, maybe even evil."

It uses covert, underhanded methods to gain control of people's minds?

330 aagcobb  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 11:15:41am

re: #329 Expand Your Ground

It uses covert, underhanded methods to gain control of people's minds?

Murdoch doesn't like the competition.

331 Kronocide  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 11:20:01am

Scientology doesn't have as much T & A so the comparison is only 93% valid.

332 HappyWarrior  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 11:36:21am

re: #317 Targetpractice

So while demanding "full repeal," Boehner admits the obvious:

Boehner: ‘Parts Of’ Obamacare May Be Good – But Repeal It Fully

But the whole "Largest tax increase in history" bit may have hit a snag:

Romney Complicates GOP Push To Label ‘Obamacare’ A Tax

Boehner's trying to sell Romney's implementing as one state blah blah but ignoring the fact that Romney made the health care he implemented in his state a part of his 2008 candidacy. And the 10th amendment crap is really amusing given the fact that Boehner, McConnell, and Romney have all expressed support for a federal ban on gay marriage so that argument is a load of shit. Basically Boehner's sole problem with Obamacare is the man who implemented it. It would be nice if he could get rewarded with losing his speaker position over this and becoming minority party leader.

333 AK-47%  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 11:40:45am

They are spinning themselves right into the ground over this.

There are people who feel compelled to oppose it for any number of reasons, ranging from ideology to force of habit.

And there are politicians who are compelled to pander to this constituency.

334 Kronocide  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 11:45:06am

Conscientious Opposers

335 Targetpractice  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 11:46:30am

re: #332 HappyWarrior

Boehner's trying to sell Romney's implementing as one state blah blah but ignoring the fact that Romney made the health care he implemented in his state a part of his 2008 candidacy. And the 10th amendment crap is really amusing given the fact that Boehner, McConnell, and Romney have all expressed support for a federal ban on gay marriage so that argument is a load of shit. Basically Boehner's sole problem with Obamacare is the man who implemented it. It would be nice if he could get rewarded with losing his speaker position over this and becoming minority party leader.

It really must stick in their craw, to have a "win" they can't exploit because it's their own candidates single significant achievement of his only elected office. They've tried pointing to the video of Obama saying that it wasn't a tax, going "He lied!" But there's also a video out there they wish they could erase, of then Governor Romney declaring that Romneycare enacts not a tax, but a "fee."

336 HappyWarrior  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 11:50:04am

re: #335 Targetpractice

It really must stick in their craw, to have a "win" they can't exploit because it's their own candidates single significant achievement of his only elected office. They've tried pointing to the video of Obama saying that it wasn't a tax, going "He lied!" But there's also a video out there they wish they could erase, of then Governor Romney declaring that Romneycare enacts not a tax, but a "fee."

Yep. And honestly, I think they look really foolish after the past couple years of declaring ACA an assault on our Constitution. They weren't expecting the USSC to uphold ACA because they thought there was no way Roberts would take the administration's side in this and their reactions with whine and snide show that. I bet there's really alot of second guessing going on about Romney now. Heck Santorum was on saying that Romneycare hasn't worked. I expect their convention to be even more divided than it was before. Now it's going to be even more ugly.

337 wrenchwench  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 11:53:13am

re: #327 Bob Dillon

FWIW dept. Union Pacific re-opened the Grand Junction to Denver link. We are on the first train (CA Zephyr) through. Lots of burnt out areas along the tracks. Smoke in the canyons to the south of the tracks. Firefighters working - helicopters making drops. Other than that beautiful scenery.

That is beautiful scenery!

338 AK-47%  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 11:55:23am

re: #336 HappyWarrior

Yep. And honestly, I think they look really foolish after the past couple years of declaring ACA an assault on our Constitution. They weren't expecting the USSC to uphold ACA because they thought there was no way Roberts would take the administration's side in this and their reactions with whine and snide show that. I bet there's really alot of second guessing going on about Romney now. Heck Santorum was on saying that Romneycare hasn't worked. I expect their convention to be even more divided than it was before. Now it's going to be even more ugly.

Remember, the Tea party will turn on anyone whom they consider ideologically compromised, regardless of party. They have no sense of tactics or compromise. They are out to save America, and if the election goes against them , they will start calling for armed uprising.

339 HappyWarrior  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 11:56:10am

re: #338 Expand Your Ground

Remember, the Tea party will turn on anyone whom they consider ideologically compromised, regardless of party. They have no sense of tactics or compromise. They are out to save America, and if the election goes against them , they will start calling for armed uprising.

Some people already have started calling for armed uprisings. It's fucking insane.

340 AK-47%  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 12:01:49pm

re: #339 HappyWarrior

Some people already have started calling for armed uprisings. It's fucking insane.

It will become an ongoing meme if Obama is re-elected.

341 bernielomax  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 6:24:30pm

im confused , agent Terry wasnt killed by our govt giving cartel members guns without supervision?

342 bernielomax  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 6:33:11pm

re: #340 Expand Your Ground

yea just ignore the black panthers tweeting to kill white people, cmon a small % of people are nuts....

343 Coracle  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 7:00:19pm

re: #341 bernielomax

No. He wasn't. I hope that clears your confusion.

344 Coracle  Sun, Jul 1, 2012 7:02:15pm

re: #342 bernielomax

All the thousands of them, in thread after thread all across the left wing blogosphere... Exactly balanced with the racist nutjobs of the right.


If you bathe in such bullshit, please stay downwind.

345 bernielomax  Mon, Jul 2, 2012 10:06:09am

ok, can you provide a link... { thanks for thr response btw}

346 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 2, 2012 10:44:40am

Dead thread hero tried to leave turds at the end of every thread, apparently.


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