In Which Chris Rock Pees in the Right Wing Punchbowl on the Fourth of July

Comedian’s tweet leads to massive wingnut tantrum

There goes that Chris Rock again, rattling the right wing’s cage:

Well, you know that the incredibly patriotic keyboard commandos of the wingnutosphere weren’t going to take that lying down. Nobody talks trash about the Fourth!

Michelle Malkin’s fake news site twitchy.com did their now-familiar schtick, digging through random comments on Twitter and clutching their pearls over each horrible one of them: Shameful: Aaron Sorkin, Left Celebrate Independence Day by Slamming America; Update: Chris Rock Joins In: ‘Happy White Peoples Independence Day’; Don Cheadle Laughs Along; Zach Braff Piles on.

It’s fun to just pick out the borderline illiterate Twitchy editorial comments from their cut-and-paste jobs:

Unbelievable. Yet, totally believable since it is so predictable. As always, members of the bitter and hateful Left jump at the chance to slam the country that provides them the opportunity and freedom to spew their hatred.

[…]

They will have a lot of unfollowing to do today, sadly.

[…]

Non-Americans join in the bashing. But, hey, let’s totally appease those who hate us, right? Citizens of the world and all.

[…]

Sadly, it’s not just people from other countries. Americans enjoying the freedom that this country, a beacon of light to world, provides decide to “celebrate” with hate as well.

[…]

They are all following the lead of the contemptible Aaron Sorkin. Of course, he has no problem earning millions and enjoying the lifestyle he could only have in suck-y America.

[…]

These citizens decide to provide a little lesson for the haters.

[…]

And this Twitter user sums it up in a nutshell.

[…]

Amen.

It’s okay, pitiful Left. Keep hating; you have the freedom to do so in America, you see. Try doing that anywhere else. Those of us who aren’t hate-filled and delusional will keep loving our country and cherishing the freedom provided by this great nation.

Update: Chris Rock joins in the slamming.

[…]

Some lessons for Mr. Rock.

[…]

Truth is hard.

Update: Actor Don Cheadle finds Rock’s tweet absolutely guffaw-worthy.

[…]

Update: Actor Zach Braff wants in on the action:

[…]

Happy “Independence to Rip Off Other Celebrities’ Tweets” Day, Zach!

The comments from Twitchy readers are exactly what you’d expect — they’re calling Chris Rock a racist over and over and over, telling him to go back to Africa, telling him to go to Cuba, calling him ugly, saying he wants to turn America into “Rhodesia” and kick out white people, and saying he wants to replace all the white Christian holidays with black socialist ones.

And another race-baiting festival of right wing butthurt is going on at breitbart.com: Chris Rock Wishes Us ‘Happy White Peoples Independence Day’.

Still carrying a grudge against a country that has made Chris Rock wealthy and famous way beyond where his waning talents should’ve taken him, this was how the once-interesting and once-edgy comedian celebrated the 4th of July on Twitter today…

To divisive racialists like Rock, nothing will ever be enough. Not a Civil War, not electing a black president, not making “Head of State” a modest hit.

There is, however, a special day coming up I think we can ALL enjoy, and that’s March 15, the one-year anniversary of the big, tough, bad ass Chris Rock attacking a woman.

All for having the sheer liberal audacity to mention that when the Declaration of Independence was adopted, this country was a slave-holding country. In other words, the truth.

Jump to bottom

246 comments

1 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 12:16:53pm

I think Chris Rock read the LGF page that was posted yesterday, of Frederick Douglass' speech.

2 erik_t  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 12:17:41pm

Masterful trolling in the service of a higher cause.

One hundred internet cocktails to you, Mr. Rock.

3 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 12:17:57pm
this was how the once-interesting and once-edgy comedian celebrated the 4th of July on Twitter today…

I'd call the ability to get the wingnuts all up in arms on the 4th edgy enoug.

4 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 12:19:39pm

What right-wing political correctness? /

5 Destro  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 12:19:55pm

According to right wingers, black people reminding white people that white people used to do really horrible things to black people (and in some cases still do) is in and of itself racist.

I kid you not.

6 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 12:20:15pm

re: #1 Learned Mother of Zion

I think Chris Rock read the LGF page that was posted yesterday, of Frederick Douglass' speech.

And of course, nobody from Twitchy did.

7 Bulworth  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 12:22:01pm

If only we could go back to the days of Our Founders when this was a free country, everyone worked hard and worshipped the right God, but don't talk about slavery you America-hating racist.

8 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 12:24:49pm

That statement was 3/5s joking.

9 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 12:25:29pm

I'm surprised John Nolte called Chris Rock a "racialist". I thought that was the new, not-a-racist term for someone who is 'race-aware', in a totally non-racist-but-white-people-are-scientifically-shown-to-be-superior sort of way.

10 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 12:25:45pm

re: #8 The Ghost of a Flea

That statement was 3/5s joking.

Dred Scott decided otherwise

11 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 12:26:25pm

Lol.

12 Gus  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 12:30:10pm

Nothing will change the fact that on that day, July 4, 1776, blacks in America were not a free people as slaves under the brutal treatment of rich white land owners. A quick search reveals:

George Washington owned more than 200 slaves
Thomas Jefferson owned more than 100 slaves
James Madison owned and sold slaves all his life
James Monroe owned 30-40 slaves
Andrew Jackson owned about 160 slaves
Martin Van Buren owned at least one slave
William Henry Harrison had several slaves
John Tyler had slaves
James K. Polk had 15 slaves
Zachary Taylor owned more than 100 slaves
Andrew Johnson owned 8 slaves
Ulysses S. Grant freed his slaves

Still. As someone mentioned above, Rock's statement is partially satire with a large tinge of high irony and historical reality.

13 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 12:30:40pm

re: #10 Expand Your Ground

Let's Compromise. It was Missouri. /

14 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 12:36:28pm

It's the height of uncouthness to remind people of the unpleasant facts of US History, even if in jest.

Calling women whores is the height of comedic performance, on the other hand.

15 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 12:37:14pm
"Unbelievable. Yet, totally believable since it is so predictable. As always, members of the bitter and hateful Left jump at the chance to slam the country that provides them the opportunity and freedom to spew their hatred."

Count me in --as a bitter, PISSED-OFF, woman.

16 Shvaughn  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 12:43:37pm

Good for Chris Rock.

17 Kragar  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 12:45:44pm

OK, not normally a pingpong fan, but I want this...

Image: f-OcIIpFikqKhGJiwJ9Ksg2.jpg

18 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 12:46:12pm

Internet freedom.
Oracle cannot block the resale of its software in Europe

Downloaded software can be resold just like software on physical media can, the Court of Justice of the European Union has said in a ruling that shreds the distinction between software and license sales

19 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 12:54:01pm

I love it when Twitchy brags about the right wingers "providing a lesson for the liberals," and the lesson consists solely of insults or dim-witted comments like this:

20 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 12:57:44pm

re: #19 Charles Johnson

I love it when Twitchy brags about the right wingers "providing a lesson for the liberals," and the lesson consists solely of insults or dim-witted comments like this:

[Embedded content]

Yes, that is the knee-jerk response. And while it has merit, it is overused and seldom by those who have actually been to a third-world country.

21 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 12:59:45pm

re: #20 ggt

Yes, that is the knee-jerk response. And while it has merit, it is overused and seldom by those who have actually been to a third-world country.

Or a '3 world country', as she calls it. She probably can't define the term either way.

22 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:00:07pm

Things is, Chris Rock did not say "America sucks." He brought up a fact about Independence Day that wingnuts don't want to hear, because it punctures their delusional rose-tinted bubble of "American exceptionalism."

23 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:00:33pm

re: #20 ggt

Yes, that is the knee-jerk response. And while it has merit, it is overused and seldom by those who have actually been to a third-world country.

I was really impacted by the Bela Fleck video you posted a while back. The contrast between the villages and the city he visited struck me. I"d much rather have been in the village. Quiet, easy, clean. The Children seemed so valued.

24 Kragar  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:01:22pm

re: #19 Charles Johnson

I love it when Twitchy brags about the right wingers "providing a lesson for the liberals," and the lesson consists solely of insults or dim-witted comments like this:

[Embedded content]

I thought I was in a 3rd world country once, then they told me it was just Alabama.

25 Gus  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:02:13pm

re: #22 Charles Johnson

Things is, Chris Rock did not say "America sucks." He brought up a fact about Independence Day that wingnuts don't want to hear, because it punctures their delusional rose-tinted bubble of "American exceptionalism."

Exactly. When a nation forgets its history. When it denies its own atrocities from the past. I am reminded of Germany, Japan, and other nations. It would be as though Germany chose to swallow a magic pillow that erases their dark history.

26 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:04:38pm

re: #25 Gus

Exactly. When a nation forgets its history. When it denies its own atrocities from the past. I am reminded of Germany, Japan, and other nations. It would be as though Germany chose to swallow a magic pillow that erases their dark history.

...

27 erik_t  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:05:16pm

re: #25 Gus

Exactly. When a nation forgets its history. When it denies its own atrocities from the past. I am reminded of Germany, Japan, and other nations. It would be as though Germany chose to swallow a magic pillow that erases their dark history.

I think it's not absolutely rigorous to make comparisons between events that did and did not happen in living memory, but the general point is a valid one.

28 GunstarGreen  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:06:10pm

Remember folks, it's only "Stupid PC Bullshit" when you're outraged about someone calling women whores, or black people coons. When you're outraged about someone saying "By the way, you do remember that America was a slave nation at the time that it declared independence, right?", you're a "True American Patriot™".

29 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:08:20pm

re: #25 Gus

Exactly. When a nation forgets its history. When it denies its own atrocities from the past. I am reminded of Germany, Japan, and other nations. It would be as though Germany chose to swallow a magic pillow that erases their dark history.

I find that the Germans have done a fairly decent job of recalling and owning up to their history. Sometimes I feel that they over-linger on it, but given the circumstances better to err on the side of remembering....

The Japanese are another story, they still refuse to recognize many of their atrocities in China, Burma and Korea.

30 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:08:59pm

re: #22 Charles Johnson

The fact is the US is exceptional because those same Founding Fathers put together their ideal version of a government, and we've been making progress towards those aims - developing a more perfect Union, with equal rights and justice for all.

One has to temper that exceptionalism with the fact that it hasn't always been pretty (the history of slavery, segregation, gender discrimination-right to vote), and it hasn't always been peaceful (the Civil War), but we've made progress (see Civil Rights Acts, 13-15th Amendments, extending civil rights and protections to more classes of people, etc.).

There's still a long way to go.

Pointing out these things doesn't make you pine for being in a 3d world country, or ignore history or American exceptionalism. It's all part of our nation's history.

31 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:11:10pm

re: #30 lawhawk

The fact is the US is exceptional because those same Founding Fathers put together their ideal version of a government, and we've been making progress towards those aims - developing a more perfect Union, with equal rights and justice for all.

One has to temper that exceptionalism with the fact that it hasn't always been pretty (the history of slavery, segregation, gender discrimination-right to vote), and it hasn't always been peaceful (the Civil War), but we've made progress (see Civil Rights Acts, 13-15th Amendments, extending civil rights and protections to more classes of people, etc.).

There's still a long way to go.

Pointing out these things doesn't make you pine for being in a 3d world country, or ignore history or American exceptionalism. It's all part of our nation's history.

Our Founding Fathers were exceptional in many ways. The sheer audacity of what they attempted and accomplished is awe inspiring. That Politics is part of the equation sucks. Humans being humans means nothing we do is perfect.

Egos!

32 Kragar  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:11:23pm

Santorum Claims Obama Might Bomb Iran To Win Election

STEVE MALZBERG: Even doing something against Iran, which probably fundamentally in his core, he doesn’t want to do because all he wants to do is have dinner with Ahmedinejad.

RICK SANTORUM: …. Foreign policy is just something that is a distraction to him. Something that we will deal with later….What he believes he needs to do to win the election is some sort of October Surprise…there is no question that is one of the things that I’m sure he will look at.

MALZBERG: We’re talking about possibly attacking Iran. You wouldn’t be surprised?

SANTORUM: I don’t know…It would not surprise me that this president would do anything to let the country know that he’s on the watch and that he is a vital player in keeping us safe.

33 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:11:43pm
34 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:12:56pm

re: #30 lawhawk

The fact is the US is exceptional because those same Founding Fathers put together their ideal version of a government, and we've been making progress towards those aims - developing a more perfect Union, with equal rights and justice for all.

One has to temper that exceptionalism with the fact that it hasn't always been pretty (the history of slavery, segregation, gender discrimination-right to vote), and it hasn't always been peaceful (the Civil War), but we've made progress (see Civil Rights Acts, 13-15th Amendments, extending civil rights and protections to more classes of people, etc.).

There's still a long way to go.

Pointing out these things doesn't make you pine for being in a 3d world country, or ignore history or American exceptionalism. It's all part of our nation's history.

But then Twitchy's owner thinks one of the less pretty parts, internment of Americans who were of Japanese descent, was a good thing.

35 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:13:59pm

Hubby and I always talk to cab drivers when we travel. One young Chinese Man we talked with had NO CLUE that China and the US had no diplomatic relations from 1959 -Nixon.

NO CLUE.

36 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:19:05pm

re: #35 ggt

Hubby and I always talk to cab drivers when we travel. One young Chinese Man we talked with had NO CLUE that China and the US had no diplomatic relations from 1959 -Nixon.

NO CLUE.

I found myself, an American expatriate who came over in 1988 when there was still East and West Germany, explaining to a young German born after reunification about what life was like for people in East Germany...

37 Kragar  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:22:24pm

re: #36 Expand Your Ground

I found myself, an American expatriate who came over in 1988 when there was still East and West Germany, explaining to a young German born after reunification about what life was like for people in East Germany...

My wife is Japanese, didn't know the details behind Pearl Harbor other than it happened.

38 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:23:42pm

re: #37 Kragar

My wife is Japanese, didn't know the details behind Pearl Harbor other than it happened.

We were just minding our own business, expanding the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere and suddenly they dropped atom bombs on us for no reason!!!

39 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:23:51pm

re: #30 lawhawk

Unfortunately, when the Twitchy crowd uses "American exceptionalism," they're not talking about a genuine appreciation of America. For them it's like a sports team that you have to cheer for in all cases, every time, and never say anything bad about. Totally one-dimensional, and any acknowledgment that there have been and continue to be problems with race in this country is seen as an attack.

40 mr.fusion  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:25:34pm

I saw this story yesterday and really couldn't believe how worked up they were getting with random people's tweets.....I seriously was reading the names of the tweeters over and over wondering who these people are and why the RWNJ's were so damn worked up

but my absolutely favorite was their quoting of "Aaron Sorkin" (errrr a character from his show) and getting all huffy....these people really just always have to be worked up about something

41 dragonfire1981  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:25:37pm

I'll take WTF????! for $1000 Alex:

Non-hate group plans whites only event featuring "Sacred Christian Cross burning

Seriously? SERIOUSLY??? Have I fallen into a time warp or something?

42 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:25:59pm

re: #39 Charles Johnson

An old Soviet Joke (where is Sergey these days anyways?):

"Comrade Ivanov just got eleven years hard labor for calling Brezhnev an idiot!"

"Why such a long sentence?"

"One year for insulting Soviet authority and ten years for revealing a state secret!"

43 engineer cat  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:28:18pm

... and don't forget that until the 1830s-1840s, "american citizens with the right to vote" consisted of males with substantial property

hamilton, iirc, was highly suspicious of the idea that the "rabble", i.e., propertyless persons would have any political power

44 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:29:07pm

re: #39 Charles Johnson

Unfortunately, when the Twitchy crowd uses "American exceptionalism," they're not talking about a genuine appreciation of America. For them it's like a sports team that you have to cheer for in all cases, every time, and never say anything bad about. Totally one-dimensional, and any acknowledgment that there have been and continue to be problems with race in this country is seen as an attack.

Need to believe that they are more better. The Preffered-by-God.

Usually accomplished not by working to be the better but by Objectifying everyone else. Some deep insecurity I have yet to understand.

45 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:29:16pm

re: #42 Expand Your Ground

An old Soviet Joke (where is Sergey these days anyways?):

Are you calling Sergey an old Soviet joke?

46 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:32:13pm

re: #23 ggt

I was really impacted by the Bela Fleck video you posted a while back. The contrast between the villages and the city he visited struck me. I"d much rather have been in the village. Quiet, easy, clean. The Children seemed so valued.

Cities can be daunting because they seem crowded and impersonal. Villages carry a sense that you can become familiar with everyone and everything. Which can be comforting and good, or scary and horrible since there won't be a refuge if things go south.

47 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:32:38pm

One older cabbie was from Iraq. He was sad. He missed his country and although he loved America and appreciated it sincerely, you could tell his heart was in Iraq where his ancestry was. He had been in America for 20+ years.

He said "It's not safe, don't go there."

48 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:33:39pm

I think the Frederick Douglass reference was good, as a reminder of the past and appropriate in the context; but I'm not sure I understand if Chris Rock now thinks that this is all we should think about when we celebrate July 4th, or if we shouldn't at all because there are bad things in our past. We have, I think, made great strides in correcting them, and not just slavery.

So what is his point?

(I also don't see his point when he makes lots of "N" jokes, because he is allowed to.)

49 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:34:00pm

re: #46 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Cities can be daunting because they seem crowded and impersonal. Villages carry a sense that you can become familiar with everyone and everything. Which can be comforting and good, or scary and horrible since there won't be a refuge if things go south.

I loved the one Mom in the City. She was giving her kids the "look" that is universal. "BEHAVE!!!"

She and I could be great friends!

50 S'latch  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:34:39pm

"One of the easiest ways to save face is to keep the lower half of it shut." Anon.

51 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:35:54pm

re: #48 Achilles Tang

I think the Frederick Douglass reference was good, as a reminder of the past and appropriate in the context; but I'm not sure I understand if Chris Rock now thinks that this is all we should think about when we celebrate July 4th, or if we shouldn't at all because there are bad things in our past. We have, I think, made great strides in correcting them, and not just slavery.

So what is his point?

(I also don't see his point when he makes lots of "N" jokes, because he is allowed to.)

Sometimes I think July 4th is a lot like Christmas. The true meaning is lost in the Forced Family Fun and ritual.

July 4th is a commemoration of the Country's Independence from England and Monarchy. It's not the final story.

52 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:36:03pm

re: #49 ggt

I loved the one Mom in the City. She was giving her kids the "look" that is universal. "BEHAVE!!!"

She and I could be great friends!

"But Maaaaa.... we wanna go tip over the cow on Wall Street!"
;)

53 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:36:41pm

re: #52 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

"But Maaa... we wanna go tip over the cow on Wall Street!"
;)

Tipping is not a city in China.

54 engineer cat  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:36:53pm

has the higgs boson been proven to be a liberal plot to destroy america yet?

55 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:37:36pm

re: #48 Achilles Tang

I think the Frederick Douglass reference was good, as a reminder of the past and appropriate in the context; but I'm not sure I understand if Chris Rock now thinks that this is all we should think about when we celebrate July 4th, or if we shouldn't at all because there are bad things in our past. We have, I think, made great strides in correcting them, and not just slavery.

So what is his point?

(I also don't see his point when he makes lots of "N" jokes, because he is allowed to.)

I think his point is that he has a point of view. You don't share it.

56 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:37:44pm

re: #54 engineer cat

has the higgs boson been proven to be a liberal plot to destroy america yet?

using Comic Sans to lull us into complacency

57 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:39:46pm

I'm going to go wash my dogs.

Have a great afternoon all!

58 Kragar  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:40:33pm

National Review Contributor: ‘Most Of The World Worked Better In Colonial Times’

Black, a publisher, columnist, and Canadian-born member of the British House of Lords declared that, “most of the world worked better in colonial times,” and went on to list the colonial accomplishments of the British, the Belgians and the Dutch. He surmises:

No one could seriously dispute that almost all of sub-Saharan Africa, all of North Africa except Morocco, all of the Middle East except Israel and Jordan and most of the oil-rich states, and the entire former British Indian Empire were better governed by Europeans.

Well, no one except for Africans, Middle Easterners, Indians and rational human beings would dispute that.

59 Gus  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:42:20pm

re: #19 Charles Johnson

I love it when Twitchy brags about the right wingers "providing a lesson for the liberals," and the lesson consists solely of insults or dim-witted comments like this:

[Embedded content]

It's also out of context. Her Tweet had nothing to do with Sorkin, Rock or liberals. As you can on that page it mentions another Twitter member. That was in response to this teenager's Tweet:

She follows him and they're friends. The kid's into football and also has "God first" in his profile. Twitchy just plopped that thing in there without any context.

60 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:44:19pm

re: #58 Kragar

National Review Contributor: ‘Most Of The World Worked Better In Colonial Times’

Well, no one except for Africans, Middle Easterners, Indians and rational human beings would dispute that.

one can cherry-pick enough histories to find some things that woked better undercolonial rule than they do now. but that is not history, that is ideological polemicizing.

61 Kragar  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:48:52pm

Can Ron Paul tell us again how private industry doesn't need regulations again?

Japan's atomic disaster due to "collusion:" panel report

Regulators, it said, had been reluctant to adopt global safety standards that could have helped prevent the disaster in which reactors melted down, spewing radiation and forcing about 150,000 people from their homes, many of whom will never return.

"Across the board, the Commission found ignorance and arrogance unforgivable for anyone or any organization that deals with nuclear power. We found a disregard for global trends and a disregard for public safety," the panel said.
...
Tepco came under heavy criticism in the report, partly for putting cost-cutting steps ahead of safety as nuclear power became less profitable over the years. "While giving lip service to a policy of 'safety first', in actuality, safety suffered at the expense of other management priorities," the team said.

In a report on its internal investigation issued last month, Tepco denied responsibility, saying the big "unforeseen" tsunami was to blame - though it admitted that in hindsight it was insufficiently prepared.

62 engineer cat  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:52:06pm

No one could seriously dispute that almost all of sub-Saharan Africa, all of North Africa except Morocco, all of the Middle East except Israel and Jordan and most of the oil-rich states, and the entire former British Indian Empire were better governed exploited for the sole benefit of the rich Europeans that owned them by Europeans

morons who think that colonies were "better governed" think that the colonial peoples, in reality hardly better off than serfs, were given free toothbrushes and thrown in jail more efficiently by their benevolent paternalistic plantatation owners overseers

63 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:52:13pm

re: #59 Gus

It's also out of context. Her Tweet had nothing to do with Sorkin, Rock or liberals. As you can on that page it mentions another Twitter member. That was in response to this teenager's Tweet:

[Embedded content]

She follows him and they're friends. The kid's into football and also has "God first" in his profile. Twitchy just plopped that thing in there without any context.

Classic! They just grabbed a totally unrelated tweet and called it a "lesson" for the liberals.

64 Gus  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:54:50pm

re: #63 Charles Johnson

Classic! They just grabbed a totally unrelated tweet and called it a "lesson" for the liberals.

Yep. Later she told him to "chill" and that it "wasn't a big deal." Took me a bit to figure this out.

65 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:54:56pm

Just got back from the movies.

Meh-mazing Spider-man's more like it...

66 Gus  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:59:06pm

So yeah. While Chris Rock and Sorkin are TWEETING things, REPUBLICAN Joe Walsh spent the holiday slamming a double amputee Iraq War veteran and patriot by the name of Tammy Duckworth. With nary a word from the Twitchy idiots. That must be their way of being patriotic. Ignoring an attack on an Iraq War hero.

67 Kragar  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 1:59:48pm

re: #62 engineer cat

More from the NRO piece:

If the Americans had maintained their British status, they would control Britain and Canada and Australia and New Zealand now (another 120 million people and over $5 trillion of GDP), have all their energy needs met, and enjoy better government than they have actually endured for the past 20 years. It would have been much easier to abolish slavery and, if there had been a Civil War, it would not have lasted long, nor cost a fraction of the 750,000 American lives that it did. There would have been no World Wars or Cold War, or at least no conflict remotely as perilous as those were. The United States would also have less than its current 25 percent of the world’s incarcerated people, and wouldn’t have a legal cartel that devours 10 percent of its GDP. These are matters that, though they verge on secular heresy, Americans may want to consider, in between singing splendid anthems and rereading Jefferson’s defamation of poor old George III and his blood libel on the American Indian in the Declaration of Independence, this national holiday.

And if the Romans had dedicated more resources to the provinces, they could have dealt with the bloody English 2000s years ago and we could be part of a real empire today.
/

68 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:00:05pm

Twitchy journalism!

Americans enjoying the freedom that this country, a beacon of light to world, provides decide to “celebrate” with hate as well.

69 SidewaysQuark  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:00:55pm

Obviously the wingnuts can't understand Chris Rock's self-deprecating sense of humor. Par for the course.

70 Patricia Kayden  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:02:52pm

Chris Rock is a comedian, so I'm sure what he tweeted was meant to be humorous. Plus, it is true that slavery ended well after 1776 when the 13 founding colonies separated from Great Britain, which is what we commemorate on Independence Day.

Ironically, Rock can probably trace his ancestry further back in the US than many of the White racists who are telling him to go back to Africa.

71 mr.fusion  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:04:02pm

re: #66 Gus

So yeah. While Chris Rock and Sorkin are TWEETING things, REPUBLICAN Joe Walsh spent the holiday slamming a double amputee Iraq War veteran and patriot by the name of Tammy Duckworth.

Just for the record, it wasn't a tweet from Sorkin --- it was dialogue (well, a monologue) from one of his characters in "The Newsroom."

72 Lidane  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:05:39pm

re: #58 Kragar

National Review Contributor: ‘Most Of The World Worked Better In Colonial Times’

But remember, kids -- the National Review is the "rational" conservative publication. They're not a bunch of racist asshole wingnuts. Nope. Not at all.

Well, no one except for Africans, Middle Easterners, Indians and rational human beings would dispute that.

Pfft. You're talking about dirty foreigners, non-whites and pointy-headed intellectual elites. They don't count.

/National Review

73 iossarian  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:07:20pm

This whole thing reminds me of when my parents used to ask me: "why do you wind up your sister like that?"

Although I couldn't put it into words at the time, I now realize that the reason was that a) it was so easy to do, and b) the results were so spectacular, that it would have been a crime not to take advantage.

So three cheers for Mr. C. Rock. Successfully trolling the morans with minimal effort.

74 Gus  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:08:32pm

re: #71 mr.fusion

Just for the record, it wasn't a tweet from Sorkin --- it was dialogue (well, a monologue) from one of his characters in "The Newsroom."

Thanks. Even better. Yeesh. A character? lol

75 jaunte  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:08:40pm

re: #12 Gus

Reading American history means having to admit that the founders, great as their accomplishment was, decided to kick the emancipation can down the road for another generation to deal with.

76 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:10:09pm

re: #55 wrenchwench

I think his point is that he has a point of view. You don't share it.

That is not really a response to what I said.

77 dragonfire1981  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:11:10pm

Perhaps God is angry about something?

Noah's Ark theme park plans hit troubled waters

The group initially announced that it expected to break ground on the park in 2011, before eventually pushing that date back to 2014. But in June, in an interview in the Creation Museum's "Noah's Cafe," Ark Encounter vice president Michael Zovath told Yahoo News that the group no longer has a date in mind for the construction to begin. It has been unable to raise sufficient amounts of money, despite pleas to the Creation Museum's visitors to donate to the project.

"Fundraising is really tough," Zovath said, blaming the recession. "It's not moving so fast as we hoped." The private LLC that is building the park would need to raise another $20 million before it can break ground, he said. So far, it's taken in $5.6 million in donations and $17 million in private investments.

To add to the bad news, the Creation Museum is having its lowest attendance year yet. Last fiscal year, 280,000 people visited, compared to 404,000 the first year it opened in 2007. Zovath thinks that potential visitors have been less willing to travel to the museum because of the poor economy.

If the attraction does get built, it's unclear if it will be as controversial as the Creation Museum itself. The museum has draw criticism from atheists, scientists, educators (including the National Center for Science Education, which says kids who visit the museum will do worse in science classes), and fellow Christians who subscribe to a less literal, or "old Earth" view of Genesis, where the six days described in God's creation actually represent six long epochs. The museum strives to convince all visitors that the Earth is only 6,000 years old, instead of the 4.5 billion years that scientists endorse. (The museum motto: "Prepare to Believe.")

The Supreme Court has ruled that it's illegal for creationism to be taught in public schools, as a violation of the separation of church and state, so public school field trips are out.

But the museum still draws in plenty of school-age kids as visitors, in part by focusing on dinosaurs and savvy marketing campaigns. The museum has more than 100 billboards up around the country featuring cartoon dinosaurs urging drivers to make the trip.

"It's a way to get kids to come to the museum, that's the whole purpose of advertising," Zovath says of the ads. "The common response is, well, you're trying to attract children to your museum so you can teach them something we don't believe in. That's probably true," he concedes. "But secular museums and most natural history museums, when they run a dinosaur exhibit it's to promote attendance, and they're trying to teach kids things we don't believe in."

He added: "We have a message we want people to see, and the only way they'll see it is if they come to the museum."

Yep, I'm sure the only reason people aren't showing up is because of the recession.

Those financial numbers are huge. The article states $22.6 million has already been raised but an ADDITIONAL $20 million is needed. This means the total cost of the project is nearly $43 million.

Now here's the thing. I'm a Christian and when I see numbers like that I wonder how many mouths could $43 million feed? How many backs could it clothe? How many poor could it shelter? How many sick could it help?

That's what I wonder, not "hey I think we should take all this money and build a theme park!"

78 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:11:47pm

re: #58 Kragar

National Review Contributor: ‘Most Of The World Worked Better In Colonial Times’

Well, no one except for Africans, Middle Easterners, Indians and rational human beings would dispute that.

Hand-waving the Belgian Congo and the Dutch East India Company. Wow.

Am I supposed to take NRO seriously? Because even independent of their racist contributors they're pretty full of shit. Snide, cultural-imperialist, ahistorical shit, to be precise.

This entire "but at least the natives didn't run wild" crap is just this side of racism pretty damn racist, now that I think about it.

It's also pathetic in that it pretends that the problem in all these ex-colonial states are squarely rooted in colonialism. Hell--think of it in simple economic terms: colonialism channeled the GDP of a giant chunk of the world into a few nations for generations, swallowed irreplaceable natural resources, and price gouged captive consumers on scale that make "company stores" seem modest and ethical. The quantity of money that went back in as infrastructure was a tiny by comparison.

To say nothing of the fact colonialists specifically fanned tribal tensions and armed local populations, creating the "ancient tribal feuds" than in the post-colonial era have turned into massacres. Or the ongoing racism that was barely concealed beneath mouthed platitudes about "bringing civilization." Or the cynical manner in which humanism and Christianity were yoked and used to cultivate excuses for brutality, exploitation, and extortion.

And lest we forget, the horrific shit perpetrated by the Japanese in the 20th century was an explicit calque of justifications and methods used by Europe.

The only way to "excuse" colonialism is to hold complete contempt for a vast and varied groups of brown Others, for whom charnel houses and plantations were better than what they could achieve on their own.

79 Lidane  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:13:52pm

re: #78 The Ghost of a Flea

The only way to "excuse" colonialism is to hold complete contempt for a vast and varied groups of brown Others, for whom charnel houses and plantations were better than what they could achieve on their own.

In other words, it requires buying into the racist anti-intellectualism of modern conservatism.

80 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:15:05pm

re: #78 The Ghost of a Flea

Well, the world had far fewer people. They were more easily subdued and shit took much longer to happen; but happen it did.

81 Patricia Kayden  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:15:25pm

I guess because I am so used to the Right employing blatantly racist language, Black's latest defense of colonialism, i.e., White rule over people of color, is not that surprising. That the National Review was comfortable printing such rubbish after having to fire racists in the past says a lot about their audience. Obviously, they have to throw out red meat to their racist readers every so often.

82 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:16:20pm

The Lebanese sheikh who's leading a sit-in against Hezbollah

A Lebanese Salafist cleric who has emerged over the past year from obscurity to become a leading and controversial Sunni activist has launched a sit-in in this port city to press for the disarming of the powerful Shiite Hezbollah organization.
...
The imbalance in Lebanon, all the economic problems in Lebanon, all the political problems are a result of the weapons of the Resistance [Hezbollah]," he told the Monitor in an interview. "But every time we raise the subject of the non-state weapons, they accuse us of being [pro-Israel] traitors."

83 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:17:07pm

re: #82 Killgore Trout

He won't live long.

84 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:17:52pm

re: #78 The Ghost of a Flea

One major change I didn't make before the window closed:

It's also pathetic in that it ignores that the problem in all these ex-colonial states are squarely rooted in colonialism.

85 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:17:56pm

re: #76 Achilles Tang

That is not really a response to what I said.

I responded to what you said. You don't get Chris Rock's point, and now you don't get mine.

86 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:18:45pm

re: #83 Achilles Tang

He won't live long.

Well, he's relatively safe for now because he has little chance of success. That may change.

87 abolitionist  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:31:38pm

re: #77 dragonfire1981

Perhaps God is angry about something?

Noah's Ark theme park plans hit troubled waters

Yep, I'm sure the only reason people aren't showing up is because of the recession.

Those financial numbers are huge. The article states $22.6 million has already been raised but an ADDITIONAL $20 million is needed. This means the total cost of the project is nearly $43 million.

Now here's the thing. I'm a Christian and when I see numbers like that I wonder how many mouths could $43 million feed? How many backs could it clothe? How many poor could it shelter? How many sick could it help?

That's what I wonder, not "hey I think we should take all this money and build a theme park!"

Just a wild guess, maybe the problem is resources diverted by Ken Ham to his creation museum project in Iraq. Oh, and a Baptist church.

Christian Creation Museum to Open in Iraq - youtube

88 Kragar  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:33:57pm

And that train wreck just keeps piling up...


CNN Interview: Joe Walsh Digs In On Duckworth Flap

Walsh charged that Duckworth hasn’t told voters where she stands on the issues. But Banfield had come prepared: She brought out reference materials on issues that Duckworth has discussed. The interview devolved into a shouting match, as the two fought back and forth on Duckworth’s record of service, Walsh’s past campaign tactics against an 87-year-old incumbent during his first run for office in 1996, and whether veterans should discuss their service.

Walsh said at one point: “Well Ashleigh, Ashleigh, I’m not gonna sit here if you don’t let me talk, kiddo.”

89 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:38:03pm

re: #88 Kragar

And that train wreck just keeps piling up...

CNN Interview: Joe Walsh Digs In On Duckworth Flap

Page not found.

90 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:38:24pm

re: #88 Kragar

I'm getting the dreaded Gorn.

91 Kragar  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:40:21pm

re: #88 Kragar

And that train wreck just keeps piling up...

CNN Interview: Joe Walsh Digs In On Duckworth Flap

Link here

‘Ashleigh! Ashleigh!’: Joe Walsh Digs In On Duckworth Flap

I like the part when he says Ashleigh.

Of course the part where he asks the reporter if she served in Iraq was really good too.

92 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:41:38pm

re: #91 Kragar

Link here

‘Ashleigh! Ashleigh!’: Joe Walsh Digs In On Duckworth Flap

I like the part when he says Ashleigh.

Of course the part where we asks the reporter if she served in Iraq was really good too.

Ha!

93 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:43:09pm

re: #58 Kragar

National Review Contributor: ‘Most Of The World Worked Better In Colonial Times’

Well, no one except for Africans, Middle Easterners, Indians and rational human beings would dispute that.

Oh yeah, the mother and infant mortality rate was so much lower . . . .

Milk was so much safer . . .

No vaccinations --yet people were crippled from polio so much less . . .

/gah

94 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:43:17pm

Dogs are clean!

95 Kragar  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:43:40pm

re: #92 Varek Raith

Ha!

He, not we. Can't type this afternoon.

96 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:45:18pm

re: #95 Kragar

He, not we. Can't type this afternoon.

Didn't notice the typo.

97 Four More Tears  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:45:52pm

Do real heroes pay their child support?

98 Kragar  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:47:29pm

re: #97 It's a cookbook!

Do real heroes pay their child support?

Real heroes stand up against feminism and don't pay out just because a black robed activist tells them to.
/

99 Kragar  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:49:39pm

I get the feeling Joe had a real problem with a woman talking to him like that.

100 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:50:00pm

re: #85 wrenchwench

I responded to what you said. You don't get Chris Rock's point, and now you don't get mine.

Is that testiness I detect? I made a statement that was more than that and you didn't get it.

I have heard Chris Rock on a few occasions. I think he is funny at times, but from what I've seen he is a shock jock, which isn't all that uncommon, with plenty of 4 letter word jokes, and the added plus that as a black man he is allowed to liberally inject the N word, often, for a white audience.

It's like kids chuckling at doing something sort of borderline not allowed except there is someone around who makes it OK.

I think his comment about the 4th was exactly in the same vein. Just another shock shot for effect, like he makes about black people all the time, for profit.

I don't think it deserves the attention it got, which is what I tried to say more gently and with benefit of doubt the first time.

101 Varek Raith  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:50:13pm

re: #99 Kragar

I get the feeling Joe had a real problem with a woman talking to him like that.

Big time.

102 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:50:21pm

I wonder how many of these Whackos have actually read Ayn Rand?

There is a part in We The Living in which the main character is railing against the new government. Paraphrased: "People are dying, starving, sick and there is no help, but the country has a new power plant, dam, and the government is strong!"

So reminds me of the current meme --"People are sick, starving and dying, but all the matters is that the financial statements balance."

103 Kragar  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:51:36pm

re: #101 Varek Raith

Big time.

ASHLEIGH! ASHLEIGH! ASHLEIGH! ASHLEIGH! ASHLEIGH!

104 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:53:12pm

Ads for Gold still on Fox. Hearing it from the next room.

105 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 2:59:55pm

re: #100 Achilles Tang

Is that testiness I detect? I made a statement that was more than that and you didn't get it.

That wasn't testiness. That was 'if you don't understand that, I'm not going to be able to explain it to you.'

You sound like you're jealous of his 'permission' to use the n word.

106 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:01:38pm

re: #105 wrenchwench

That wasn't testiness. That was 'if you don't understand that, I'm not going to be able to explain it to you.'

You sound like you're jealous of his 'permission' to use the n word.

I think my understanding is more likely right than yours. So be it.

107 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:04:50pm

Is it more important to be right or to communicate?

108 jaunte  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:05:44pm

re: #105 wrenchwench

Sorry, random ding

109 gwangung  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:06:47pm

re: #100 Achilles Tang

Huh. Of all things, I think shock jock is the last thing I'd describe Chris Rock as.

111 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:07:32pm

bbl

112 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:11:30pm

re: #110 Kragar

Texas Lawmakers Try To Criminalize ‘Intrusive’ Patdowns But Mandate Ultrasounds

Somebody needs an intrusive patdown upside the head.

(That's testiness, Tang.)

113 engineer cat  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:12:45pm

re: #67 Kragar

If the Americans had maintained their British status, they would control Britain and Canada and Australia and New Zealand now (another 120 million people and over $5 trillion of GDP), have all their energy needs met, and enjoy better government than they have actually endured for the past 20 years. It would have been much easier to abolish slavery and, if there had been a Civil War, it would not have lasted long, nor cost a fraction of the 750,000 American lives that it did. There would have been no World Wars or Cold War, or at least no conflict remotely as perilous as those were.

yeah but hillary clinton would be duchess of illinois and michelle bachman would have been burnt at the stake so there's that...

remarkable how this moron seems to actually believe that his little alternate history wet dream is a scientific certainty

It would have been much easier to abolish slavery

i guess the point is to hell with this here democracy crap, having a king order people to do stuff is the really effective way to handle shit

114 Mattand  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:16:06pm

re: #77 dragonfire1981

Perhaps God is angry about something?

Noah's Ark theme park plans hit troubled waters

When I visited in June, a girl who looked about 10 years old rushed up to an exhibit that showed a giant hummingbird. Next to it, in shadow, were three other creatures—a pterodactyl, a bat and a small finch. "Look, this is evolution!" she said, pointing at the four creatures.

Her mother jerked her head around and walked up behind the girl. "You know what, honey? Those are just other animals that are designed to fly," she said, pointing at the exhibit's description.

"Oh," the little girl said, embarrassed she'd gotten it wrong.

This should be an embarrassment to any American who cares about the state of education in this country.

115 Kragar  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:16:39pm

Push to ban gay marriage flagging in Iowa

Conservative lawmakers are watching public opinion move away from them on the gay marriage issue, and now fear that voters might not approve a ban even if the GOP can put one on the ballot by winning control of the Legislature in the November elections.

The shifting views come as a bitter disappointment for the state's prominent Christian conservative community which has long bridled at Iowa's status as a gay rights haven in the heartland — the only place outside the Northeast where gays can marry.

"People are getting comfortable with it and that's a shame to tell you the truth," said Susan Geddes, an Iowa Republican and social conservative organizer who worked for Mike Huckabee's 2008 presidential campaign in the state.

Yeah, its like people are becoming tolerant of people having other beliefs, that is a real shame. Poor GOP.

116 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:19:01pm

re: #48 Achilles Tang

Let me explain to you something. From your comment you seem to think black people are "allowed" to say something you are not. Go ahead and say it. You won't go to jail. Let me explain to you respect. Here we go.
Go down to the south of Louisiana and walk into a bar full of white Cajuns. After you are there a while you might notice them calling each other coon asses. Now i dare you to walk over and call one of them a coon ass with your foreign regional accent. Do it. I dare you. If you do you will get your ass kicked. Why are you not allowed to say it but they are to each other? Can you tell me maybe why it is uncouth for you to call them that, but they can call each other that?

117 Kragar  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:21:53pm

92

The number of times Joe Walsh said Ashleigh during his CNN interview.

118 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:32:00pm

From this wingnut's point of view:

The role of African Americans in ANY U.S. war is woefully under-covered in textbooks and elsewhere.

Chris Rock could have done some very basic research as to the role of African Americans in the American Revolution. No where is it denied that many of the blacks were slaves at the time, or former slaves.

He could have learned about Crispus Attucks, who stood up to the British with a STICK as a weapon and was the first person shot in the Boston Massacre.

Further, he could have introduced people to Benjamin Quarles, an African American scholar, historian, teacher and writer, who took particular interest in the role of African Americans in US wars, and who attempted to study and try to figure out what sort of reasoning the early African Americans had for participating in such wars.

In other words, instead of making a dickish remark that implies African Americans have little reason to celebrate this holiday, he could have opened up a line of information to people who may not be aware of the contributions of African Americans during that war.

And that's what pisses me off. I could proceed and say something nasty right here, about this information being brought to you by your resident slack-jawed, drooling racist southerner. But I won't.

119 Ben G. Hazi  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:37:20pm

re: #31 ggt

Our Founding Fathers were exceptional in many ways. The sheer audacity of what they attempted and accomplished is awe inspiring. That Politics is part of the equation sucks. Humans being humans means nothing we do is perfect.

Egos!

Most, if not all, of the Founding Fathers were extraordinary men for their time, but they were far from the mythical demigods "conservatives" want to make them out to be.

They were brilliant, but flawed men.

120 researchok  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:37:59pm

re: #118 reine.de.tout

Great info- I had no idea!

121 Kragar  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:38:30pm

re: #119 SunshineSuperman

They were brilliant, but flawed men.

So you're a commie?
///

122 Mattand  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:39:08pm

re: #118 reine.de.tout

Yeah, but I think his point was that it's very easy for white people to go on about how all men are created equal because that's who the Declaration was aimed at.

It's an uncomfortable thing to hear but this document was written by a man who held other human beings in slavery. If your ancestors were on the slave side of that equation, I imagine it's almost insulting to have people go "Do we HAVE to mention this?"

I'm proud to be an American. That doesn't mean I'm going to pretend the bad shit didn't happen, and I'm not going to get bent out of shape when it's brought up.

123 blueraven  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:40:12pm

OT...Fox news in a special report tries to convince us that republicans have a healthcare plan

Here it is

Buy insurance across state lines
Seriously, that's it. A five minute report and that is all.

124 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:40:14pm

re: #100 Achilles Tang

I see you making a lot of simplistic assertions here. What I don't see you doing is deconstructing or actually analyzing any of Rock's routines. If you want to know what his point is then all you have to do is listen. He's not speaking in code.

Also, as far as being "allowed" to say the word, white comedians like George Carlin and (even recently) Louis CK have bits their routines dealing with it.

125 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:42:35pm

re: #123 blueraven

OT...Fox news in a special report tries to convince us that republicans have a healthcare plan

Here it is

Buy insurance across state lines
Seriously, that's it. A five minute report and that is all.

Great, so insurance companies can set themselves up like credit card companies, in the states with the most lax regulatory environments. I'd love to see a Republican plan on anything that isn't centered around minimizing oversight and accountability.

126 palomino  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:45:21pm

re: #105 wrenchwench

That wasn't testiness. That was 'if you don't understand that, I'm not going to be able to explain it to you.'

You sound like you're jealous of his 'permission' to use the n word.

I've always felt that, if anyone, blacks have sort of earned the right to use the n-word.

So many whites that I know, particularly southerners, feel like they're being persecuted because there's ONE word that blacks can use more freely than they can. BFD. It's all wrapped up in the insane mindset that "blacks are the real racists now, and whites are the victims/slaves of Obama."

127 blueraven  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:45:22pm

re: #118 reine.de.tout

I read it as a joke about "then" (the original Independence day) not about now.

I dont think he implied that African Americans have no reason to celebrate now.

Your information and links are great and should be better known by all Americans. I wish that were the case.
But Chris Rock is a comedian.

128 moderatelyradicalliberal  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:47:12pm

People should lighten up. That joke was funny as hell. I'm sure these same people who are upset loved Rock's routine about "black people vs n*ggers".

129 Mattand  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:47:48pm

re: #123 blueraven

re: #125 goddamnedfrank

Great, so insurance companies can set themselves up like credit card companies, in the states with the most lax regulatory environments. I'd love to see a Republican plan on anything that isn't centered around minimizing oversight and accountability.

I actually had a brief Facebook conversation about that with my soon-to-be ex-Congressman. That's what he was pushing when I asked him if the GOP had any alternatives.

I didn't press him on it as my main question was why was Romneycare OK to the GOP whereas Obamacare isn't. Strangely, he hasn't gotten back to me.

Is there a list of pros and cons for buying insurance across state lines? It seems to me that, much like the credit card companies, you're only going to have a few states that will sell as the race to the bottom will destroy everyone else.

130 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:50:28pm

re: #122 Mattand

Yeah, but I think his point was that it's very easy for white people to go on about how all men are created equal because that's who the Declaration was aimed at.

It's an uncomfortable thing to hear but this document was written by a man who held other human beings in slavery. If your ancestors were on the slave side of that equation, I imagine it's almost insulting to have people go "Do we HAVE to mention this?"

I'm proud to be an American. That doesn't mean I'm going to pretend the bad shit didn't happen, and I'm not going to get bent out of shape when it's brought up.

I'm not a bit bent out of shape that it's brought up. It is brought up in the information I cited. What gets ME bent out of shape is that there were indeed African Americans who made positive contributions during that war - and there is indeed reason for today's African Americans to celebrate the holiday, unlike Mr. Rock's implication that there is nothing to celebrate. THAT's what's got me bent of out shape. Here is an opportunity for someone in the public eye to present some interesting information, and he doesn't. I suspect he's never even really bothered to find out. Isn't that a shame?

131 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:51:07pm

re: #118 reine.de.tout

How've you been? Are your cukes doing better?

132 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:53:21pm

re: #127 blueraven

I read it as a joke about "then" (the original Independence day) not about now.

I dont think he implied that African Americans have no reason to celebrate now.

Your information and links are great and should be better known by all Americans. I wish that were the case.
But Chris Rock is a comedian.

So - Chris Rock is a comedian? And so is excused from using his public position to educate people on a topic that is woefully under taught? And who the hell am I to do it? Nobody. No public stage for me. Nothing. Just an interest in finding the positives, the things that people can be proud about, that AFrican Americans participated in spite of their slave status. That's pretty damned big, IMO.

133 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:53:31pm

re: #119 SunshineSuperman

Most, if not all, of the Founding Fathers were extraordinary men for their time, but they were far from the mythical demigods "conservatives" want to make them out to be.

They were brilliant, but flawed men.

They were great men. They were not gods, however, which means they were imperfect. I don't see why this is such a big deal. Being great doesn't mean being perfect, but it does mean have talents and abilities that are awe-inspiring, like having the ability to write and deliver the Gettysburg address.

134 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:54:50pm

re: #131 Killgore Trout

How've you been? Are your cukes doing better?

Cucumbers are all gone, THANK GOODNESS, I couldn't wait for that damned vine to die. LOL.

Hubby had surgery Tuesday morning; was released today and is home. So we've had a bit of a rough patch, but it's over and done with, for now anyhow.

How are your frogs? I have to laugh, sorry - we've got an overabundance of frogs, at dusk it's so loud with the frogs in the ditches you can hardly hear yourself think.

135 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:55:21pm

re: #118 reine.de.tout

"From this wingnut's point of view:"

Never considered you to be a wingnut and that was an outstanding post by the way.

136 palomino  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:55:37pm

re: #118 reine.de.tout

I think Rock's point is that the TP talk of "going back to the days of the founders" is absurd and that the founding fathers weren't divinely inspired. They were just men--smart, gifted, courageous--but still just deeply flawed men. Indeed, their first plan for govt, the Articles of Confederation, was a total failure.

I'm not black, but I find the deification of our founders to be offensive. Acknowledging their flaws is NOT un-American.

137 blueraven  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:56:56pm

re: #132 reine.de.tout

So - Chris Rock is a comedian? And so is excused from using his public position to educate people on a topic that is woefully under taught? And who the hell am I to do it? Nobody. No public stage for me. Nothing. Just an interest in finding the positives, the things that people can be proud about, that AFrican Americans participated in spite of their slave status. That's pretty damned big, IMO.

Of course it is big. I am just saying sometimes a joke is just a joke and maybe too much is being read into this.

138 palomino  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 3:59:16pm

re: #130 reine.de.tout

I'm not a bit bent out of shape that it's brought up. It is brought up in the information I cited. What gets ME bent out of shape is that there were indeed African Americans who made positive contributions during that war - and there is indeed reason for today's African Americans to celebrate the holiday, unlike Mr. Rock's implication that there is nothing to celebrate. THAT's what's got me bent of out shape. Here is an opportunity for someone in the public eye to present some interesting information, and he doesn't. I suspect he's never even really bothered to find out. Isn't that a shame?

True, he doesn't report the contributions you're talking about. Then again, 99% of blacks in America at the time were picking tobacco/cotton/whatever for 14 hours a day and usually dropping dead at the ripe old age of 35. So maybe that horiffic context informs his remarks.

139 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:00:36pm

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. I read Chris Rock's tweet. It is funny for much the same reason that much of what good comedians say is funny -- because it points up to us the absurdity of sacred cows.

Yes, our founding fathers were, in many ways, great visionaries and great men. They were not, however, deities, and while the nation they created was and is great, it was and is not perfect. Slavery was and shall always be this nation's original sin, corrected only decades later at great cost and sacrifice in blood and treasure.

Now, if slavery still existed in this country, I could see where one might take Chris Rock's commentary as inciteful rather than insightful. However, since slavery existed at this nation's founding, but is no longer the law of the land, his comment is, simply, funny.

Especially the part about fireworks. Who doesn't love a joke about fireworks?

140 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:00:38pm

re: #136 palomino

I think Rock's point is that the TP talk of "going back to the days of the founders" is absurd and that the founding fathers weren't divinely inspired. They were just men--smart, gifted, courageous--but still just deeply flawed men. Indeed, their first plan for govt, the Articles of Confederation, was a total failure.

I'm not black, but I find the deification of our founders to be offensive. Acknowledging their flaws is NOT un-American.

Never said it was un-American to acknowledge flaws. God knows I've got an abundance of 'em myself. But I just think about things and try to do the best I can, given circumstances, conditions and current information. Which I suspect is what the founding fathers did. And what they did at that time was unique and revolutionary. And I see no reason to downgrade THAT aspect.

re: #137 blueraven

Of course it is big. I am just saying sometimes a joke is just a joke and maybe too much is being read into this.

Maybe so. And sometimes a "joke" is just not funny, but is tasteless and classless.

141 Mattand  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:01:56pm

re: #130 reine.de.tout

I'm not a bit bent out of shape that it's brought up. It is brought up in the information I cited. What gets ME bent out of shape is that there were indeed African Americans who made positive contributions during that war - and there is indeed reason for today's African Americans to celebrate the holiday, unlike Mr. Rock's implication that there is nothing to celebrate. THAT's what's got me bent of out shape. Here is an opportunity for someone in the public eye to present some interesting information, and he doesn't. I suspect he's never even really bothered to find out. Isn't that a shame?

Yes, there were African Americans who contributed to the war effort. I seriously doubt that they were considered equal by their fellow white soldiers. I also would guess that after the war they went back to be considered sub-human by most whites.

Chris Rock is a stand up comedian known for making off-the-cuff and controversial remarks. He's not a history teacher.

Quite frankly, we need people like Rock to say things like this. I have enough friends and family who feel things like slavery and the Holocaust shouldn't be discussed, because people should be "over" it.

A little jab at their decorum from time to time isn't a bad thing.

142 moderatelyradicalliberal  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:02:37pm

I wonder how many of the wingnuts that are pissed off where threatening to move to Canada last week after Obamacare was ruled constitutional?

143 Gus  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:03:08pm

Maybe we can get Don Rickles to do a thing about blacks on TED Talks.

144 researchok  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:03:12pm

re: #132 reine.de.tout

The holiday is about bringing people together to commemorate an imperfect nation- but a still a nation which is willingly a work in progress, a most perfect commentary on our national identity.

It is sad when the holiday take on politically divisive overtones.

Now it is no different than the other 364 days a yer.

145 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:03:38pm

re: #134 reine.de.tout

Hubby had surgery Tuesday morning; was released today and is home. So we've had a bit of a rough patch, but it's over and done with, for now anyhow.

How are your frogs? I have to laugh, sorry - we've got an overabundance of frogs, at dusk it's so loud with the frogs in the ditches you can hardly hear yourself think.

Sorry to hear about the rough patch of bad luck. I hope things get better soon.
My frogs are doing well. Little tads in the pond are starting to sprout legs. Luckily our Pacific tree frogs are pretty quite. They're done mating so they only start to croak when it rains.

146 researchok  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:03:48pm

re: #143 Gus

LOLOLOL

147 palomino  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:04:12pm

re: #140 reine.de.tout

Never said it was un-American to acknowledge flaws. God knows I've got an abundance of 'em myself. But I just think about things and try to do the best I can, given circumstances, conditions and current information. Which I suspect is what the founding fathers did. And what they did at that time was unique and revolutionary. And I see no reason to downgrade THAT aspect.

He's not downgrading their abilities at statecraft. He's satirizing the hypocrisy of celebrating "all men are created equal" without putting it into a broader context that included slavery, which meant all men weren't really created equal. Let's be clear about who the founders were--great men, and racists who profited handsomely from the blood of human property.

148 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:06:42pm

The power of Negative P.R.

Florida lifeguard says he's been offered his job back

He has declined the offer.

149 Gus  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:09:26pm

re: #142 moderatelyradicalliberal

I wonder how many of the wingnuts that are pissed off where threatening to move to Canada last week after Obamacare was ruled constitutional?

First they'd have to find it on a map.

//

150 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:09:44pm

re: #144 researchok

The holiday is about bringing people together to commemorate an imperfect nation- but a still a nation which is willingly a work in progress, a most perfect commentary on our national identity.

It is sad when the holiday take on politically divisive overtones.

Now it is no different than the other 364 days a yer.

Agreed. Which is why I thought somebody with a public presence could have used the opportunity to present information. We do indeed have all these tributes to the founding fathers on Independence Day - why not to all the others who contributed as well? Would that be such an awful thing to do?

151 Destro  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:10:37pm

re: #9 wrenchwench

Yea, and if you are black, don't you dare remind the right wing of the fact you are black because that is in fact a sign the black person is a racialist.

In fact black people are better off pretending they don't exist anymore per the right wing.

152 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:10:45pm

re: #147 palomino

There were those among the founders of this nation who did not personally profit from slavery, did not own slaves and were not in favor of slavery, but who, faced with the choice of insisting on the abolition of slavery and having the new country torn apart or continuing the practice of slavery in an agrarian south that was dependent on slave labor, made a Faustian bargain and begat an imperfect nation that was not true to its founding ideals.

They can be criticized for their choice, but to paint them all as having been motivated by personal greed and/or racism in the matter is somewhat of an oversimplification.

153 celticdragon  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:10:46pm

re: #8 The Ghost of a Flea

That statement was 3/5s joking.

You win the internet today.

154 researchok  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:11:51pm

re: #143 Gus

Your humor is really under appreciated.

I'm still laughing.

155 engineer cat  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:12:37pm

relatively o.t.

everytime i hear one of these omnipresent ads for christian mingle dot com, i can't help but hear "and that means no jewish atheists like you, hippie"

okay so i am a little oversensitive, but really the message is clear that i would not be welcome there

156 palomino  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:12:44pm

re: #152 sliv_the_eli

There were those among the founders of this nation who did not personally profit from slavery, did not own slaves and were not in favor of slavery, but who, faced with the choice of insisting on the abolition of slavery and having the new country torn apart or continuing the practice of slavery in an agrarian south that was dependent on slave labor, made a Faustian bargain and begat an imperfect nation that was not true to its founding ideals.

They can be criticized for their choice, but to paint them all as having been motivated by personal greed and/or racism in the matter is somewhat of an oversimplification.

Of course, they weren't all slaveholders...I spoke way too broadly. But the barb from Rock was directed at the ones who were and the others who acquiesced to slavery.

157 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:13:12pm

re: #118 reine.de.tout

Well, I see your point, but he wasn't writing a New York Times op-ed, after all - it was a one-liner on Twitter. It's kind of hard to explore topics in depth there.

I wasn't offended by it, I guess because I see it as the kind of thing a comedian like Chris Rock does - he's not always nice or even fair, and he'll throw you off guard on purpose, make you react, and hopefully make you think. In that tweet, I think he used sarcasm to illustrate a very real point that a lot of Americans never consider - that "Independence Day" wasn't so independent for 18th Century African Americans.

158 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:13:33pm

re: #141 Mattand

Yes, there were African Americans who contributed to the war effort. I seriously doubt that they were considered equal by their fellow white soldiers. I also would guess that after the war they went back to be considered sub-human by most whites.

Chris Rock is a stand up comedian known for making off-the-cuff and controversial remarks. He's not a history teacher.

Quite frankly, we need people like Rock to say things like this. I have enough friends and family who feel things like slavery and the Holocaust shouldn't be discussed, because people should be "over" it.

A little jab at their decorum from time to time isn't a bad thing.

There are jabs at decorum every day. Then there are those days, once or twice a year, which are holidays which should serve, IMO, (wingnut POV of course) to unite us in a common theme. This was one of those days. And personally, I do not think it would be such an awful thing to point out the contributions of all Americans, not just the founding fathers. But I seem to not be having much luck selling that idea.

159 researchok  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:14:09pm

re: #155 engineer cat

You need to sign up with godlessheathens.com.
//

160 engineer cat  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:14:35pm

"We don't have the facilities to accommodate other races, and we have nothing, not one bit of animosity, no racism whatsoever," Christian Identity Ministries Pastor William J. Collier told WIAT.

ya.

got it.

none, nothing, zip, nada, none whatsoever

161 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:14:41pm

re: #156 palomino

Of course, they weren't all slaveholders...I spoke way too broadly. But the barb from Rock was directed at the ones who were and the others who acquiesced to slavery.

Personally, I thought he was just trying to be funny in the 160 or so characters allowed on Twitter. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

162 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:14:50pm

LOL, I'm pretty sure that Chris Rock doesn't need to be lectured on african american history.

The African American Patriot who gave loyal service to the Continental Army found that the postwar military held no rewards for them. State legislatures like Connecticut and Massachusetts in 1784 and 1785 banned all blacks, free or slave, from military service. Southern states banned all slaves but some states allowed free men to serve in their militias. In 1792, the United States Congress formally excluded the African American from military service, allowing only "free able-bodied white male citizens" to serve.[20]

Many slaves who fought did receive their freedom, but many others did not after their owners reneged on their promise to free them for service in the military.
Despite the added difficulties in African-American genealogy, many descendants of Revolutionary war veterans have been able to document their lineage. Professor Henry Louis Gates and Judge Lawrence W. Pierce, as examples, joined the Sons of the American Revolution.

Seems like a mixed but largely disappointing bag for the black patriots. Their people were still enslaved, promises were often unfulfilled and it would be another 89 years until even the beginning of de jure equality was attained through the Civil War. Then another century before the beginning of de facto equality in much of the country with the passing of the Civil Rights Act. In light of all this I'm not sure Crispus Atticus being the first to die, something I'm absolutely positive Chris already knew, is something one nominally "celebrates."

163 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:15:09pm

re: #157 Charles Johnson

Well, I see your point, but he wasn't writing a New York Times op-ed, after all - it was one-liner on Twitter. It's kind of hard to explore topics in depth there.

I wasn't offended by it, I guess because I see it as the kind of thing a comedian like Chris Rock does - he's not always nice or even fair, and he'll throw you off guard on purpose, make you react, and hopefully make you think. In that tweet, I think he used sarcasm to illustrate a very real point that a lot of Americans never consider - that "Independence Day" wasn't so independent for 18th Century African Americans.

Agreed - it was not so independent for 18th century African Americans. And no one has denied that.

My issue is best explained in 158. There's a time to poke fun; and a time not to. And this was just - not the right time. IMO. Consider the wingnut in me.

164 researchok  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:15:58pm

re: #163 reine.de.tout

Not the wingnut- the American with a valid opinion.

165 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:17:12pm

re: #162 goddamnedfrank

LOL, I'm pretty sure that Chris Rock doesn't need to be lectured on african american history.

Seems like a mixed but largely disappointing bag for the black patriots. Their people were still enslaved, promises were often unfulfilled and it would be another 89 years until even the beginning of de jure equality was attained through the Civil War. Then another century before the beginning of de facto equality in much of the country with the passing of the Civil Rights Act. In light of all this I'm not sure Crispus Atticus being the first to die, something I'm absolutely positive Chris already knew, is something one nominally "celebrates."

It is something not well known. Did you know it? Should we not acknowledge the contributions and actions of all Americans? I think so. But again, I seem to not be having a good sales day on this. I'm on twitter; I saw Chris Rock's tweet; I thought it was not appropriate for the day. And there's not much that will change my mind.

166 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:17:20pm

And back in those days, white people didn't include the Irish, either. And non-property owners couldn't vote. Etc.

In this era of people fetishizing the founders to a weird degree, it's really important to remember they were highly flawed, that the liberty that was fought for was only partially won that day, and that we should be eternally grateful for the sacrifices that black Americans made thoughout the long years when they were considered less than equal citizens-- which lasted right up until the 1960s in law, and lasts even up to the current day in their practical treatment in the justice system and the workplace.

We've come a long way since Independence Day in living up to the ideals expressed then. I really don't know what the people are thinking who hearken back to that time as though it was better than this one; the founders certainly didn't think they were creating a perfect nation, or that they were the apex of political history. They were smart men, they knew that society had changed and would continue changing.

The kindest way to judge them is not the hero-fetishize them, which creates an impossible standard for them, but to understand them as the flawed, human, but still brave and groundbreaking men and women they were.

167 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:18:01pm

re: #165 reine.de.tout

It is something not well known. Did you know it?

Yes. Where I come from every grade schooler is taught that.

168 Gus  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:18:11pm

re: #154 researchok

Your humor is really under appreciated.

I'm still laughing.

Thanks. Just another comedian causing a national crisis. //

169 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:18:20pm

re: #162 goddamnedfrank

And oh - I'm free to disagree with whoever I want to.

170 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:19:32pm

re: #160 engineer cat

"We don't have the facilities to accommodate other races, and we have nothing, not one bit of animosity, no racism whatsoever," Christian Identity Ministries Pastor William J. Collier told WIAT.

ya.

got it.

none, nothing, zip, nada, none whatsoever

???What???

We don't have the facilities to accommodate other races? What on earth does this mean, other than what I suspect it means, namely, we don't have separate bathrooms, so blacks would have to use our bathrooms, and we just can't have that.

Either that or this man thinks that other races are actually alien, and require super high-tech facilities, like alien sleeping pods or something.

171 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:20:38pm

Well, gotta run, my patient needs supper. I guess I'll have to figure out how to turn on the oven. ick. See y'all later, it was interesting.

172 Mattand  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:21:06pm

re: #158 reine.de.tout

There are jabs at decorum every day. Then there are those days, once or twice a year, which are holidays which should serve, IMO, (wingnut POV of course) to unite us in a common theme. This was one of those days. And personally, I do not think it would be such an awful thing to point out the contributions of all Americans, not just the founding fathers. But I seem to not be having much luck selling that idea.

I don't think you're being a wingnut, I just think you're being too sensitive about it. And let's face it: the only reason this is news is because the wingnut blogosphere is making a huge stink out of it.

173 researchok  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:21:44pm

re: #168 Gus

You're about ready to break out.

There is that dry, Bob Newhart kind of humor that comes out every ow and then. Two days later, it hits you again.

Killer.

174 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:22:59pm

re: #168 Gus

Thanks. Just another comedian causing a national crisis. //

I'm not sure Independence Day can ever recover from this. Maybe a new painting by McNaughton could serve to give some comfort, but it probably wouldn't be enough/

175 jaunte  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:22:59pm

Semi-related:
Roger Ebert quotes Smart Ass Cripple:

I could conduct a survey where I offer cripples a choice between a) being locked in a meat freezer for three days wearing only a Speedo or b) a kick in the crotch. Four out of five cripples will say they prefer a kick in the crotch. Hell, five out of five cripples will say they prefer a kick in the crotch. So then I'm not only justified but I'm sanctified when I go around kicking cripples in the crotch. I'm honoring their choice.

This happens not just to cripples but to powerless people in general. You get a choice between a) working at Walmart for shit pay and no benefits or b) starving to death in a cold alley. Four out of five will choose working at Walmart for shit pay and no benefits. Well, maybe three out of five. So we must defend their right to choose to work at Walmart for shit pay and no benefits.
[Link: blogs.suntimes.com...]

176 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:23:18pm

re: #152 sliv_the_eli

I don't think many of the founders were motivated by racism, not in the way that became all-too common in the South prior to the civil war. They were racist because the dominant culture was a racist one; it was a rare and enlightened person who wasn't a racist, and it was easy for an otherwise decent person to remain a racist because they rarely met people of other races, and if they did, it was often an illiterate, brutalized slave who could be seen as 'proof' of the lesser nature of black people.

Similarly, it was easy for people in that time to dismiss women as having less intelligence, fortitude, courage, etc. because women weren't given many opportunities to prove themselves in those areas. Systems like that are self-perpetuating without a lot of impetus from actual hate-in-the-heart racists.

177 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:24:14pm

In 1860, in the lower South, if all white men were allowed to vote (I don't know about property laws at that point) 26% of the adult population would have voted. That's a quarter.

The next time they talk about self-determination or states' rights, remind them that 74% of the population did not have self-determination.

Now, to be fair, women didn't have the vote, either, so no state passed 50% in 1860.

178 Gus  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:24:19pm

re: #174 Aye Pod

I'm not sure Independence Day can ever recover from this. Maybe a new painting by McNaughton could serve to give some comfort, but it probably wouldn't be enough/

Yeah. I mean I can understand Chris Rock saying what he said but damn. No reason why he had to get so uppity about it.

//

179 Mattand  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:24:20pm

re: #166 Obdicut

And back in those days, white people didn't include the Irish, either. And non-property owners couldn't vote. Etc.

And Native Americans. And Italians.

The Declaration is one of history's most important documents, but reminding people of who it initially applied to shouldn't be ignored. If anything, July 4th is the perfect day to do it. Everyone's paying attention.

180 Mattand  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:25:21pm

re: #174 Aye Pod

I'm not sure Independence Day can ever recover from this. Maybe a new painting by McNaughton could serve to give some comfort, but it probably wouldn't be enough/

Christ, talk about comedy.

181 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:26:32pm

And now I'm going to go do my July 5th BBQ. Because the 4th is sooo trendy.

I'm in San Francisco right now, and I bet a lot of the people who buy into the GOP's bullshit about San Franciscans would have been fucking amazed to see how red, white and blue this city was yesterday, how many Old Glories were being flown high and proud, and how many people were totally unironically dancing in the streets, enjoying the freedom that this country has.

America is great and it can be even better.

182 engineer cat  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:27:46pm

re: #159 researchok

You need to sign up with godlessheathens.com.
//

i was thinking more like blaspheming fornicators

better tequila

183 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:28:04pm

re: #174 Aye Pod

I'm not sure Independence Day can ever recover from this. Maybe a new painting by McNaughton could serve to give some comfort, but it probably wouldn't be enough/

New McNaughton canvas will feature Chris Rock stamping on the Dec of Independence while Obama looks on from the shadows, giggling. In the sky above, the patron saint of wounded christian wingnut martyrs floats by, a tear welling in her eye...

184 [deleted]  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:28:53pm
185 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:29:10pm

re: #176 Obdicut

I don't think many of the founders were motivated by racism, not in the way that became all-too common in the South prior to the civil war. They were racist because the dominant culture was a racist one; it was a rare and enlightened person who wasn't a racist, and it was easy for an otherwise decent person to remain a racist because they rarely met people of other races, and if they did, it was often an illiterate, brutalized slave who could be seen as 'proof' of the lesser nature of black people.

Similarly, it was easy for people in that time to dismiss women as having less intelligence, fortitude, courage, etc. because women weren't given many opportunities to prove themselves in those areas. Systems like that are self-perpetuating without a lot of impetus from actual hate-in-the-heart racists.

They were men of their times, It's important to remember. Even forward looking folks like Mark Twain would be considered racist bigots by today's standards. An Innocent Abroad has some very unPC stuff in it.

186 Mattand  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:30:44pm

re: #183 Aye Pod

New McNaughton canvas will feature Chris Rock stamping on the Dec of Independence while Obama looks on from the shadows, giggling. In the sky above, the patron saint of wounded christian wingnut martyrs floats by, a tear welling in her eye...

Some of the work has already been done...

187 engineer cat  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:32:50pm

re: #184 Channeling Confucius

by which he meant masturbation. He advocated whole grains and invented the corn flake to grapple with these urges

um exactly where do you put the corn flakes when you are grappling?

188 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:33:26pm

re: #178 Gus

Yeah. I mean I can understand Chris Rock saying what he said but damn. No reason why he had to get so uppity about it.

//

He could have taken the opportunity to mend some wingnut hearts too instead of reminding people of the unpleasant things....so selfish when you think about it./

189 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:33:29pm
In other words, the truth.

(Best Jack Nicholson voice) The truth? You can't handle the truth!

190 jaunte  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:34:33pm
191 Gus  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:34:58pm

No one ever suggested discarding the virtues of our founding fathers. Nor the ground work that the Deceleration of Independence laid out. It is important to remember however that this moment in our history was less about "humanity" and more about "American nationalism". The wording isn't directed as a preamble for the freedom of "all men" but "America men" within the context of being free of rule by England. It was about a war with England and sovereignty FROM England.

192 researchok  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:35:17pm

re: #183 Aye Pod

I'm cutting you off.

No more Guinness.

///

193 Gus  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:35:53pm

re: #188 Aye Pod

He could have taken the opportunity to mend some wingnut hearts too instead of reminding people of the unpleasant things...so selfish when you think about it./

Yeah. Just like they close their eyes and ears to Fredrick Douglass's speech of 1852.

194 jaunte  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:35:59pm

re: #191 Gus

"All men" meaning we landowners over here, vs. the King.

195 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:36:07pm

What the hell did he mean by that?

196 Gus  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:36:29pm

While they're cheering the virtues of how great things were during colonial times over at National Review.

197 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:36:58pm

re: #195 wrenchwench

[Embedded content]

What the hell did he mean by that?

I think he's comparing Andy Griffith's gentle, good-guy persona to Bill Cosby's gentle, good-guy persona.

198 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:37:30pm

re: #196 Gus

While they're cheering the virtues of how great things were during colonial times over at National Review.

I've got it! I've got it!

The Republicans can nominate zombie Abigail Adams for Veep.

199 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:37:49pm

re: #197 Mostly sane, most of the time.

I think he's comparing Andy Griffith's gentle, good-guy persona to Bill Cosby's gentle, good-guy persona.

And the fatherliness and stuff...

I left off the sarc tag.

200 researchok  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:38:08pm

re: #193 Gus

Reading that speech ought to be a part of every July 4th celebration.

It would make the holiday more meaningful.

201 Gus  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:39:44pm

re: #200 researchok

Reading that speech ought to be a part of every July 4th celebration.

It would make the holiday more meaningful.

Which he also said himself:

Fellow Citizens, I am not wanting in respect for the fathers of this republic. The signers of the Declaration of Independence were brave men. They were great men, too great enough to give frame to a great age. It does not often happen to a nation to raise, at one time, such a number of truly great men. The point from which I am compelled to view them is not, certainly, the most favorable; and yet I cannot contemplate their great deeds with less than admiration. They were statesmen, patriots and heroes, and for the good they did, and the principles they contended for, I will unite with you to honor their memory...

202 Gus  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:39:56pm

But!

203 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:40:44pm

Did you know when the last slave was freed in America?

1947.

Some Indian tribes kept a slave caste.

204 researchok  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:42:33pm

re: #191 Gus

What I said earlier:

The holiday is about bringing people together to commemorate an imperfect nation- but a still a nation which is willingly a work in progress, a most perfect commentary on our national identity.

It is sad when the holiday take on politically divisive overtones.

Now it is no different than the other 364 days a year.

That is my only and singular beef with Rock.

Hot dogs and beer are not what the holiday is about.

I wish he had made the remarks leading up to or on the day before the holiday, to make us think and realize the Holiday is about a lot more than the trite stuff and drivel we are spoon fed.

Adding gravitas and solemnity to the 4th is most appropriate.

205 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:44:20pm

re: #203 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Did you know when the last slave was freed in America?

1947.

Some Indian tribes kept a slave caste.

That's also an important reminder that slavery existed long before white people showed up. The practice of taking slaves among tribes was common practice.

206 researchok  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:45:17pm

re: #205 Killgore Trout

Please, allow me to buy the big red bulls eye Tshirt for you.
//

207 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:46:04pm

Blasphemy is good for you

Tend to agree, but depends on the intent. E.g. I seriously don't think it's such a good thing when it's being employed as a weapon in inter-religious 'war' - been a lot of that lately.

208 Gus  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:47:10pm

re: #207 Aye Pod

Blasphemy is good for you

Tend to agree, but depends on the intent. E.g. I seriously don't think it's such a good thing when it's being employed as a weapon in inter-religious 'war' - been a lot of that lately.

Intent and the environment. For example: while walking through a village in Pakistan.

209 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:49:54pm

re: #208 Gus

Intent and the environment. For example: while walking through a village in Pakistan.

Yep. Not to mention Koran-burning pastors.

210 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:50:34pm

This thread needs some Pootie Tang:

211 researchok  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:51:12pm

re: #207 Aye Pod

I believe blasphemy which is turned inward- as i criticizing or questioning one's own faith or religious leaders or institutions is a good thing. Religion ought to be able to withstand challenges.

Blasphemy which is turned outward, directed at others or the beliefs of a different group is whole other thing.

212 Kragar  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:51:32pm

re: #190 jaunte

[Embedded content]

I'd back that repeal if it meant I could turn Bryan Fischer away.
///

213 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:52:16pm

My son is working his way through his loot from the parade yesterday.

He has Chanukah gelt coins. Not kidding. Menorahs and dreidels.

How on Earth....

214 researchok  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:54:13pm

re: #213 Mostly sane, most of the time.

This is America, baby...

Anything is possible.

We're the nation that gave the world what it never knew it was missing.

Bubble gum

215 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:54:18pm

re: #203 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Did you know when the last slave was freed in America?

1947.

Some Indian tribes kept a slave caste.

Hate to burst your bubble, but there is still an active slave trade in America.

Dated, but probably still true.

Sex Slave Outrage

Or here from

Jan 19, 2012- 4:09
Global slave trade

The slave trade is alive and well in America. *SPIT*

216 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:56:58pm

re: #215 Bubblehead II

Hate to burst your bubble, but there is still an active slave trade in America.

Dated, but probably still true.

Sex Slave Outrage

Or here from

Jan 19, 2012- 4:09
Global slave trade

The slave trade is alive and well in America. *SPIT*

How I wish you were wrong.

217 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:57:25pm

re: #211 researchok

I believe blasphemy which is turned inward- as i criticizing or questioning one's own faith or religious leaders or institutions is a good thing. Religion ought to be able to withstand challenges.

Blasphemy which is turned outward, directed at others or the beliefs of a different group is whole other thing.

As long as they themselves aren't imposing shit on others on account of their personal religious beliefs, yes. If they are doing that however, they shouldn't expect the walking on eggshells treatment in return.

218 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 4:58:05pm

re: #213 Mostly sane, most of the time.

My son is working his way through his loot from the parade yesterday.

He has Chanukah gelt coins. Not kidding. Menorahs and dreidels.

How on Earth...

Zionist Mall ain't closed during the summer months!

219 Kragar  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:00:58pm

2 ex-Argentine dictators convicted in baby thefts

Former Argentine dictator Jorge Rafael Videla was convicted and sentenced to 50 years Thursday for a systematic plan to steal babies from prisoners who were kidnapped, tortured and killed during the military junta's war on leftist dissenters three decades ago.

Argentina's last dictator, Reynaldo Bignone, also was convicted and got 15 years.

"This is an historic day. Today legal justice has been made real — never again the justice of one's own hands, which the repressors were known for," prominent rights activist Tati Almeida said outside the courthouse, where a jubilant crowd watched on a big screen and cheered each sentence.

The baby thefts set Argentina's 1976-1983 regime apart from all the other juntas that ruled in Latin America at the time. Videla other military and police officials were determined to remove any trace of the armed leftist guerrilla movement they said threatened the country's future.

The "dirty war" eventually claimed 13,000 victims according to official records. Many were pregnant women who were "disappeared" shortly after giving birth in clandestine maternity wards.

220 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:05:33pm

re: #211 researchok

I believe blasphemy which is turned inward- as i criticizing or questioning one's own faith or religious leaders or institutions is a good thing. Religion ought to be able to withstand challenges.

Blasphemy which is turned outward, directed at others or the beliefs of a different group is whole other thing.

Does criticizing a belief you've never held only become gouache when it contains a supernatural element?

As an agnostic I tend to avoid religious debates simply because I'm aware of my own limitations in understanding the divine, but even for me religious beliefs exist on a spectrum that runs somewhere between the unprovably plausible and the patently ridiculous. Maybe the fault is mine, but I'm not sure how an ex-Scientologist is on firmer ground criticizing the tenets of that religion than I am.

221 Gus  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:05:53pm

First African slaves were brought to the continent and located in "San Miguel de Gualdape colony" in 1526. Dutch colonists began in earnest (for tobacco production) in the year 1619.

Look it up.

The British emancipated their slaves in the year 1807 and abolished in 1833. Well before America did so in 1865 and without the human cost of the Civil War which left several 100-thousand dead and many more maimed and injured.

A long period of suffering, violence and injustices were faced by America's blacks. It wasn't until the Civil Rights Act of 1964 that they saw a true measure of freedom -- at last.

So from the first slaves of the San Miguel de Gualdape colony in 1526 to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 reveals a period of 438 years.

222 Mattand  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:06:11pm

re: #211 researchok

I believe blasphemy which is turned inward- as i criticizing or questioning one's own faith or religious leaders or institutions is a good thing. Religion ought to be able to withstand challenges.

Blasphemy which is turned outward, directed at others or the beliefs of a different group is whole other thing.

Disagree. By that measure, one is not allowed to criticize religion or its practitioners in a public forum.

It sounds like what your saying is that if you have a problem with religion, keep it to yourself.

223 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:08:40pm

Bedtime here. Later folks:)

224 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:09:04pm

re: #216 Mostly sane, most of the time.

How I wish you were wrong.

So do I. But it is a fact. Women, men and yes, even children are bought and sold on a daily basis in this (and many other) countries. It isn't that hard to find. Just Google it. There are way too many stories out there to deny it. People just don't want to acknowledge that it happens because those that it's happening to are also the most vulnerable.

Heinlein did a story about this. Some rich guy got drunk, got shanghaied and ended up on Venus where he led a slave rebellion that succeeded because he happened to know how to build A.M. transmitters and receivers that had been forgotten by modern technologies and could therefore be used without fear of inception.

Can't remember the title of the book though.

225 Kragar  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:13:11pm

re: #224 Bubblehead II

So do I. But it is a fact. Women, men and yes, even children are bought and sold on a daily basis in this (and many other) countries. It isn't that hard to find. Just Google it. There are way too many stories out there to deny it. People just don't want to acknowledge that it happens because those that it's happening to are also the most vulnerable.

Heinlein did a story about this. Some rich guy got drunk, got shanghaied and ended up on Venus where he led a slave rebellion that succeeded because he happened to know how to build A.M. transmitters and receivers that had been forgotten by modern technologies and could therefore be used without fear of inception.

Can't remember the title of the book though.

Logic of Empire

226 wrenchwench  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:14:32pm
227 Stanghazi  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:14:59pm

re: #159 researchok

You need to sign up with godlessheathens.com.
//

And they are definitely the fun ones!!

228 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:18:26pm

re: #225 Kragar

Thank You.

229 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:20:26pm

re: #221 Gus

First African slaves were brought to the continent and located in "San Miguel de Gualdape colony" in 1526. Dutch colonists began in earnest (for tobacco production) in the year 1619.

Look it up.

The British emancipated their slaves in the year 1807 and abolished in 1833. Well before America did so in 1865 and without the human cost of the Civil War which left several 100-thousand dead and many more maimed and injured.

A long period of suffering, violence and injustices were faced by America's blacks. It wasn't until the Civil Rights Act of 1964 that they saw a true measure of freedom -- at last.

So from the first slaves of the San Miguel de Gualdape colony in 1526 to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 reveals a period of 438 years.

African slaves.

There were slaves here long before Europeans got here.

Or did you think Sacajawea was a free woman?

230 Gus  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:22:47pm

re: #229 Mostly sane, most of the time.

African slaves.

There were slaves here long before Europeans got here.

Or did you think Sacajawea was a free woman?

I'm talking about Murica and the colonists. The Europeans.

231 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:25:59pm

re: #185 Killgore Trout

They were men of their times, It's important to remember. Even forward looking folks like Mark Twain would be considered racist bigots by today's standards. An Innocent Abroad has some very unPC stuff in it.

Mark Twain wouldn't just be considered a racist, he really was a racist-- though much more towards American Indians than he was towards blacks. It's not just a matter of subjective standards; it's reality.

However, in his time, he pushed a very critical look at race relations and the supposed superiority of whites to blacks-- or asked, if whites are superior, what are they doing with that superiority? So, while racist, he was less racist than his contemperories in many ways.

A lot of the founders weren't less racist. Some were more racist, especially the Southern founders, where slavery had already begun its poisoning of intellectual life into a defense of this idiocy.

If people were always just explicable by the culture that surrounded them, culture would never change, or at least would never progress. It behooves us to recognize those who rose above their time, and to note those who failed to, or who actively held-- or hold-- back the times.

Obama, for example, has grown in his recognition of the equality of gay people in the US; it's nice to see. Others, meanwhile, have not grown, and others are headed in the opposite direction, wishing to take away rights that gay people already enjoy.

It's all a rich tapestry.

232 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:26:10pm

re: #230 Gus

I'm talking about Murica and the colonists. The Europeans.

Well, yes, but slavery was pretty much everywhere prior to that time, and slavery had existed before, here.

233 researchok  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:28:47pm

re: #220 goddamnedfrank

Simply stated, an apostate/blasphemer has a ore intimate knowledge and understanding of the religion he is criticizing.

In the same way a religious critic more often than not comes up short when discussing atheism or agnosticism, a non believer who criticizes religion isw often making obtuse arguments as far as the believer is concerned.

Strongly held beliefs of any kind can be (and I am not saying they are) as emotional as they are intellectual.

Consider the cartoon incidents in Europe.

Some Muslims took great umbrage at non Muslims with their portrayal of Mohammed. They insisted this was blasphemous, even though the perpetrators were non Muslims.

Western sensibilities were and remain astonished at this definition- that ideas can be blasphemous.

This was not the desecration of relics or religious institutions, this was merely an expression of an idea.

It is difficult at best to debate religion until definitions and ground rules are set.

As a rule, ex believers are in the best position to make their arguments. THey know the territory.

That isn't to say no one ought to debate religion and religious beliefs- they certainly can- but their obvious limitations.

234 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:29:23pm

re: #229 Mostly sane, most of the time.

African slaves.

There were slaves here long before Europeans got here.

Or did you think Sacajawea was a free woman?

FAIL!

Sacajawea was on the Lewis and Clark expedition. Long after American Independence and the Louisiana purchase.

235 Henchman 26  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:30:47pm

re: #229 Mostly sane, most of the time.

African slaves.

There were slaves here long before Europeans got here.

Or did you think Sacajawea was a free woman?

That doesn't excuse what the Europeans did and the aboriginals who practised slavery are now either gone or a mere shadow of what they were.

236 researchok  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:31:34pm

re: #222 Mattand

Disagree. By that measure, one is not allowed to criticize religion or its practitioners in a public forum.

It sounds like what your saying is that if you have a problem with religion, keep it to yourself.

I never said anything like that.

One is free to debate religion of anything else in any forum. The issue is the quality of the debate.

As a rule, the most eloquent debaters of religion are those who know the object of their criticism best.

237 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:32:34pm

re: #234 Bubblehead II

FAIL!

Sacajawea was on the Lewis and Clark expedition. Long after American Independence and the Louisiana purchase.

Slave

238 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:33:38pm

AHEM.
Slavery predates written records and has existed in many cultures.[3] The number of slaves today is higher than at any point in history,[4] remaining as high as 12 million[5] to 27 million,[6][7] Most are debt slaves, largely in South Asia, who are under debt bondage incurred by lenders, sometimes even for generations.[8] Human trafficking is primarily used for forcing women and children into sex industries.[9]


[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

239 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:34:51pm

re: #238 Dancing along the light of day

AHEM.
Slavery predates written records and has existed in many cultures.[3] The number of slaves today is higher than at any point in history,[4] remaining as high as 12 million[5] to 27 million,[6][7] Most are debt slaves, largely in South Asia, who are under debt bondage incurred by lenders, sometimes even for generations.[8] Human trafficking is primarily used for forcing women and children into sex industries.[9]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

We need a jubilee year, everywhere.

240 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:36:34pm

To re: #237 Killgore Trout

Then I stand corrected. But the time frame quoted was still wrong. She was post, not pre European.

241 Henchman 26  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:37:37pm

re: #238 Dancing along the light of day

AHEM.
Slavery predates written records and has existed in many cultures.[3] The number of slaves today is higher than at any point in history,[4] remaining as high as 12 million[5] to 27 million,[6][7] Most are debt slaves, largely in South Asia, who are under debt bondage incurred by lenders, sometimes even for generations.[8] Human trafficking is primarily used for forcing women and children into sex industries.[9]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Because the human population is so large, comparing numbers with the past isn't accurate. Asking about relative percentages is a better metric.

242 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:39:30pm

re: #203 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Did you know when the last slave was freed in America?

1947.

Some Indian tribes kept a slave caste.

It's covered in legal-ese, but the US government is still liberating slaves. People get investigated and charged under anti-slavery laws every year.

243 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:48:16pm

Lizards, we can argue this all night. The point remains, that regardless of the color of skin, sex and age of the victim, Slavery still remains a component of our society. And it will continue until we as a society, say no more.

244 Mattand  Thu, Jul 5, 2012 5:59:39pm

re: #236 researchok

I never said anything like that.

One is free to debate religion of anything else in any forum. The issue is the quality of the debate.

As a rule, the most eloquent debaters of religion are those who know the object of their criticism best.

Sorry, but the definition of blasphemy for some is simply saying something like Jesus is fictional. It's too easy to dismiss an argument against religion because one is not being "respectful."

245 Destro  Fri, Jul 6, 2012 9:58:16am

re: #20 ggt

Yes, that is the knee-jerk response. And while it has merit, it is overused and seldom by those who have actually been to a third-world country.

When parts of America look like the Third World, all one has to do is stay here.

246 Destro  Fri, Jul 6, 2012 10:03:47am

re: #58 Kragar

National Review Contributor: ‘Most Of The World Worked Better In Colonial Times’

Well, no one except for Africans, Middle Easterners, Indians and rational human beings would dispute that.

Belgium??? The Belgian Congo was one large death camp thanks to King Leopold and his Belgian colonists.


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