New Voter ID Laws Could Block Thousands of Legitimate Votes - as Intended

Disenfranchisement is the intended outcome
Politics • Views: 48,351

The Associated Press reviewed temporary primary ballots in Indiana and Georgia, two states that recently adopted stringent Voter ID laws at the urging of Republicans, and discovered that the laws are doing exactly what the GOP wants — disenfranchising the elderly, poor, and minorities, and potentially tilting the election to the right.

As more states put in place strict voter ID rules, an AP review of temporary ballots from Indiana and Georgia, which first adopted the most stringent standards, found that more than 1,200 such votes were tossed during the 2008 general election.

During sparsely attended primaries this year in Georgia, Indiana and Tennessee, the states implementing the toughest laws, hundreds more ballots were blocked.

The numbers suggest that the legitimate votes rejected by the laws are far more numerous than are the cases of fraud that advocates of the rules say they are trying to prevent. Thousands more votes could be in jeopardy for this November, when more states with larger populations are looking to have similar rules in place.

More than two dozen states have some form of ID requirement, and 11 of those passed new rules over the past two years largely at the urging of Republicans who say they want to prevent fraud.

There’s some fraud going on here, that’s for sure — the Republican Party’s fraudulent claims that Voter ID laws are needed for any other reason than to give Republicans an advantage in the presidential election, by preventing people who normally lean Democratic from voting.

Supporters of the laws cite anecdotal cases of fraud as a reason that states need to do more to secure elections, but fraud appears to be rare. As part of its effort to build support for voter ID laws, the Republican National Lawyers Association last year published a report that identified some 400 election fraud prosecutions over a decade across the entire country. That’s not even one per state per year.

ID laws would not have prevented many of those cases because they involved vote-buying schemes in local elections or people who falsified voter registrations.

Election administrators and academics who monitor the issue said in-person fraud is rare because someone would have to impersonate a registered voter and risk arrest. A 2008 Supreme Court case drew detailed briefs from the federal government, 10 states and other groups that identified only nine potential impersonation cases over the span of several years, according to a tally by the Brennan Center at New York University.

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311 comments
1 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 10:22:36am

Just another poll tax to keep the poor away from power. Nothing new or even terribly clever here.

2 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 10:24:03am

The ID's must be provided for free, or it is indeed a poll tax.

3 erik_t  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 10:30:34am

This isn't what democracy looks like, GOP, although I guess you might be trying to save on big-tent expenses in these trying economic times.

4 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 10:30:40am

re: #2 Mostly sane, most of the time.

The ID's must be provided for free, or it is indeed a poll tax.

They are here in Georgia. As a matter of fact they'll even come to an elderly persons home, bring them to the county office and drive them back if needed

5 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 10:34:40am

re: #4 sattv4u2

They are here in Georgia. As a matter of fact they'll even come to an elderly persons home, bring them to the county office and drive them back if needed

I think these laws also have provisions that you can actually vote without an ID but you have to sign a legal document swearing that you are who you say you are. I'm not terribly passionate about the issue but the ID laws are ineffective and fairly pointless. I don't see them as a racist Republican conspiracy to steal elections, just crappy laws to appease the base.

6 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 10:34:48am

re: #2 Mostly sane, most of the time.

The ID's must be provided for free, or it is indeed a poll tax.

The point is: the IDs are not necessary. These laws are purportedly addressing a problem that does not exist.

Making voter IDs free completely misses the point. Free or not, they will still disenfranchise many people, and this is what they're intended to do.

This is a giant Republican scam.

7 erik_t  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 10:36:11am

re: #6 Charles Johnson

The point is: the IDs are not necessary. These laws are purportedly addressing a problem that does not exist.

Next you'll tell me you'll not be buying one of my patented Giraffe Dissuasion Rocks for your front yard...

8 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 10:39:03am

re: #5 Killgore Trout

these laws also have provisions that you can actually vote without an ID but you have to sign a legal document swearing that you are who you say you are

Not sure about that as I've never needed to look into it. I do have to go to the county office later this week on another matter. If I remember, I'll ask about that

9 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 10:42:43am

re: #8 sattv4u2

[Link: www.google.com...]
I think they have to include that provision to pass Constitutional muster.

11 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 10:45:21am

re: #9 Killgore Trout

The "affidavit" provision is simply another way to intimidate voters, disguised as a "reasonable" provision. The entire Voter ID premise is false, and the amount of energy the GOP puts toward disguising their true intention is very telling.

12 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 10:46:54am

re: #10 Varek Raith

I believe the rationale is non citizens can legally go to school but cannot legally obtain firearms.

Thus, a school ID is no guarantee of citizenship.

13 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 10:47:40am

re: #12 researchok

I believe the rationale is non citizens can legally go to school but cannot legally obtain firearms.

Or that most students vote D.
;)

14 The Left  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 10:48:06am

re: #12 researchok

I believe the rationale is non citizens can legally go to school but cannot legally obtain firearms.

The rationale is definitely also students = Democratic votes.

15 erik_t  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 10:48:45am

re: #13 Varek Raith

Or that most students vote D.
;)

What a, uh, fascinating coincidence!

16 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 10:48:57am

Funny that those who predominately vote for Democrats are affected most by these laws. Must be some kind of strange coincidence.
Yes sirree!

17 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 10:50:18am

re: #13 Varek Raith

re: #14 Millicent Islam

No argument from me in that regard.

Nevertheless, the rule is reasonable.

I would also venture to say most citizen students do have other forms of valid ID.

18 erik_t  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 10:51:27am

re: #17 researchok

re: #14 Millicent Islam

No argument from me in that regard.

Nevertheless, the rule is reasonable.

I would also venture to say most citizen students do have other forms of valid ID.

I propose that we also make voters stand one one foot while voting, in order to ensure that, uh, they are of balanced mind, or something.

Equally worthwhile and equally justifiable.

19 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 10:52:32am

re: #17 researchok

No argument from me in that regard.

Nevertheless, the rule is reasonable.

I would also venture to say most citizen students do have other forms of valid ID.

I don't see how the rule can be "reasonable" when it's based on a completely false premise.

20 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 10:52:32am

re: #18 erik_t

I propose that we also make voters stand one one foot while voting, in order to ensure that, uh, they are of balanced mind, or something.

Equally worthwhile and equally justifiable.

While singing the National Anthem backwards.

21 erik_t  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 10:54:28am

re: #20 Varek Raith

While singing the National Anthem backwards.

Isn't that some kind of hidden message from the devillll! John Jay?

22 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 10:56:22am

re: #19 Charles Johnson

I'm not sure I understand the premise of your remark.

I would agree fraudulent voting is a minor problem.

That said why are school ID's (which do not guarantee citizenship) as valid as gun licenses, which do speak as to citizenship?

23 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 10:58:05am

re: #22 researchok

I'm saying the whole rationale for the laws is bogus in the first place, so any attempt to make them seem "reasonable" is just more deception.

24 The Left  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:01:18am
25 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:02:15am

re: #23 Charles Johnson

I'm not disagreeing with you- I understand the problem is more political than real.

My contentions are outside the political realm.

Maybe it's because I was born outside the country, but national ID's are not that big a deal elsewhere.

26 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:02:15am

re: #22 researchok

I would agree fraudulent voting is a minor problem.

It's so minor that it's practically nonexistent. Even the Republican National Lawyers Association, who are pushing this disenfranchisement agenda, could only dig up 400 cases in the last 10 years -- and voter ID laws would not have done anything to stop most of those cases of fraud.

It's a phony issue, cooked up to disguise a real agenda - to give Republicans an advantage in elections.

27 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:03:59am

re: #16 Varek Raith

Funny that those who predominately vote for Democrats are affected most by these laws. Must be some kind of strange coincidence.
Yes sirree!

I don't know how accurate that is. The GOP sends vans around to all the nursing homes to bring in elderly voters who can't drive. They are a reliable and significant part of the Republican voter base. I think the argument could be made that the GOP actually ends up hurting itself by these silly laws.

28 abolitionist  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:05:17am

We need these voter ID laws because Gerrymandering has such a bad rep.

29 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:05:38am

re: #26 Charles Johnson

Again, no argument here.

I just see national ID's and voting as two separate issues.

In the end, I suspect the ACA will serve as the foundation for a national ID much in the same way the NHS health card served as foundation for national ID in the UK

30 Big Joe  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:06:20am

re: #12 researchok

I believe the rationale is non citizens can legally go to school but cannot legally obtain firearms.

Thus, a school ID is no guarantee of citizenship.

We can buy guns too.

31 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:07:21am

re: #27 Killgore Trout

I would agree.

The poster children for the majority of voters turned away at the polling stations will be citizens legally eligible to vote.

What the GOP is proposing will boomerang on them.

32 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:08:00am

re: #30 Big Joe

'We'?

33 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:09:30am

re: #32 researchok

'We'?

Oui!

34 Big Joe  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:10:01am

re: #32 researchok

Us furriners, legally in USA.

35 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:12:16am

re: #31 researchok

I would agree.

The poster children for the majority of voters turned away at the polling stations will be citizens legally eligible to vote.

What the GOP is proposing will boomerang on them.

I did a quick check: Seniors are Consistent Voters, Increasingly Larger Share of Vote
Especially check out the over 75 category. Very few of them are probably still driving but 65% of them vote. Compared with 32% of the 18-14 crowd.

36 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:14:42am

re: #35 Killgore Trout

I did a quick check: Seniors are Consistent Voters, Increasingly Larger Share of Vote
Especially check out the over 75 category. Very few of them are probably still driving but 65% of them vote. Compared with 32% of the 18-14 crowd.

Free Scooters!!!!

Image: ElectricScooter.jpg

/

37 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:14:50am

re: #34 Big Joe

Yes, but you are legal.

And you have ID to verify that.

And you need legal status ID to purchase a weapon.

Wiki states:

(Prohibited persons) Non-US citizens, unless permanently immigrating into the U.S. or in possession of a hunting license legally issued in the U.S.

38 blueraven  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:16:52am

re: #17 researchok

re: #14 Millicent Islam

No argument from me in that regard.

Nevertheless, the rule is reasonable.

I would also venture to say most citizen students do have other forms of valid ID.

How about gun owners? Do they also have other forms of valid ID?
If so, what is the difference?

39 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:17:10am

re: #34 Big Joe

Us furriners, legally in USA.

Yep. Nice block for the appropriate info on the ATF Form 4473.

40 dragonath  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:17:17am

I dunno what to think of these "Happy Birthday Barack" banners I've been seeing today :/

41 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:18:24am

re: #38 blueraven

I would imagine so.

You can't get a gun ID without other forms of verifiable ID

42 A Mom Anon  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:18:45am

The GOP has to be scared to think this is needed in GA of all places. There are two areas of the state that veer blue,Atlanta itself and Athens. Not enough to turn the state blue,that's for sure.

43 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:19:09am

re: #40 Be Zorch, Daddio

I dunno what to think of these "Happy Birthday Barack" banners I've been seeing today :/

OMG! Is it Barck-mas again? I haven't done my holiday shopping or decorated my Kenyabush with ornamental birth certificates.

44 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:19:31am

re: #27 Killgore Trout

I don't know how accurate that is. The GOP sends vans around to all the nursing homes to bring in elderly voters who can't drive. They are a reliable and significant part of the Republican voter base. I think the argument could be made that the GOP actually ends up hurting itself by these silly laws.

They deny AGW exists. A very real threat.
What's your point?

45 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:20:01am

re: #43 Killgore Trout

You had better edit that and add a sarc tag.

46 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:21:30am

re: #45 researchok

You had better edit that and add a sarc tag.

Why?

He really does have one!!!

/// (

47 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:21:48am

re: #43 Killgore Trout

OMG! Is it Barck-mas again? I haven't done my holiday shopping or decorated my Kenyabush with ornamental birth certificates.

Mao ornaments you commie!

48 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:21:55am

re: #45 researchok

You had better edit that and add a sarc tag.

Heh

49 erik_t  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:22:04am

re: #43 Killgore Trout

OMG! Is it Barck-mas again? I haven't done my holiday shopping or decorated my Kenyabush with ornamental birth certificates.

Kenyabush?!

OMG DUBYA IS IN ON THE CONSPIRASEE TOO NO WONDER IT'S SO HARD FOR SHERIFF JOE TO FIND TRACTION EVEN WITH HIS STUNNING EVIDENCE AND FREEDOMERICA POSSE

50 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:22:53am

re: #47 Varek Raith

Mao ornaments you commie!

Nope

Image: Barack-Obama-Commemorative-Inaugural-Ornament-L.jpg

51 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:23:30am

re: #47 Varek Raith

Mao ornaments you commie!

I was wondering why the cats were singing Barackmas carols this morning. "Mao, Mao, Mao!"

52 dragonath  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:25:17am

re: #50 sattv4u2

OBAMA AND JOHN ROBERTS!!

a perfect gift for wingnuts everywhere

53 erik_t  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:25:20am

re: #51 Killgore Trout

I was wondering why the cats were singing Barackmas carols this morning. "Mao, Mao, Mao!"

Even as a proud cat owner owned, I am comfortable saying that I thought their political tastes trended toward fascism.

54 A Mom Anon  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:26:43am

re: #27 Killgore Trout

Actually,most of the nursing homes around here(I can name at least 8 within 5 miles of my house)have their own vans,the GOP doesn't really do get out the vote stuff here because most of their candidates run unopposed. I've been in this area for close to 20 yrs and have never seen anything happening in that regard. They spend their money on giant signs and tv and radio ads.

55 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:26:53am

re: #53 erik_t

Even as a proud cat owner owned, I am comfortable saying that I thought their political tastes trended toward fascism.

It depends. Some are fascists, some Marxists. But they're all authoritarians.

56 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:33:37am

re: #31 researchok

I would agree.

The poster children for the majority of voters turned away at the polling stations will be citizens legally eligible to vote.

What the GOP is proposing will boomerang on them.

How, exactly? How will it? The idea is to disempower those who stand in the way of their own power. Making those people dislike you doesn't mean anything - they're still disempowered and relatively helpless.

In any other country, a party that ran on the US Republican agenda would get 5% of the vote. It flabbergasts me that here they may well win, and continue to win a greater share of the vote with a nakedly anti-American, feudalistic platform.

57 blueraven  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:35:22am

re: #37 researchok

Yes, but you are legal.

And you have ID to verify that.

And you need legal status ID to purchase a weapon.

Wiki states:

(Prohibited persons) Non-US citizens, unless permanently immigrating into the U.S. or in possession of a hunting license legally issued in the U.S.

Which you can purchase online for up to 5 people at a time

[Link: txfgisales.appsolgrp.com...]

You can purchase licenses, permits, entries or other items for up to 5 persons in a single transaction. All purchases in a single transaction must be shipped to a single address.

58 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:36:21am

re: #56 Renaissance_Man

How, exactly? How will it? The idea is to disempower those who stand in the way of their own power. Making those people dislike you doesn't mean anything - they're still disempowered and relatively helpless.

In any other country, a party that ran on the US Republican agenda would get 5% of the vote. It flabbergasts me that here they may well win, and continue to win a greater share of the vote with a nakedly anti-American, feudalistic platform.

Exactly. The idea that this will "backfire" on the GOP is ridiculous. On the contrary, they've succeeded in convincing many gullible people that voter fraud is a serious problem and needs to be addressed.

It's not going to "backfire," and the only reason they're pushing these laws is because they've crunched the numbers and know that if they can hoodwink enough people into supporting Voter ID, it will give them an advantage.

59 palomino  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:38:11am

re: #27 Killgore Trout

I don't know how accurate that is. The GOP sends vans around to all the nursing homes to bring in elderly voters who can't drive. They are a reliable and significant part of the Republican voter base. I think the argument could be made that the GOP actually ends up hurting itself by these silly laws.

And you would be wrong. Other than seniors, all the groups likely to be affected are heavily Dem--the young, the poor, blacks, Hispanics.

The whole GOP push here emanates from the same mindset that brought us the Southern Strategy 50 years ago. It's a sort of Southern Strategy updated for a new century. Old fault lines of resentment (particularly working class/middle class white attitudes toward nonwhites) are being exploited in order to alter voting calculus. It's a way for the GOP, which even a 3rd grader knows is in trouble demographically, to bolster its chances by selectively impeding the votes of groups inclined toward the other party.

The original southern strategy was a huge success: the South is now virtually all red. Today's new incarnation is aimed at swing states where minority participation can put a Dem over the top. Is anyone really surprised that the gop would stoop this low?

60 erik_t  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:41:37am

re: #58 Charles Johnson

Exactly. The idea that this will "backfire" on the GOP is ridiculous. On the contrary, they've succeeded in convincing many gullible people that voter fraud is a serious problem and needs to be addressed.

It's not going to "backfire," and the only reason they're pushing these laws is because they've crunched the numbers and know that if they can hoodwink enough people into supporting Voter ID, it will give them an advantage.

The GOP's current platform can absolutely be made to be harmful to the GOP, in the same way that the old Gilded Age fell apart. But 'backfire' implies that it's a self-fulfilling intrinsic result, which is assuredly untrue. It took active effort and real sacrifice to fight these forces a hundred years ago, and it will take active effort again.

'Backfire' suggests we can sit back and watch the whole rotten pile crumble from within. Maybe we could, with time, if we wanted to watch the country crumble with it... I don't really like that route.

61 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:45:04am

re: #56 Renaissance_Man

Pretty simple, really.

All American Ma and Pa Kettle on the Six O'clock news as examples of voters disenfranchised by the GOP equals all kinds of bad PR.

62 erik_t  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:46:11am

re: #61 researchok

Pretty simple, really.

All American Ma and Pa Kettle on the Six O'clock news as examples of voters disenfranchised by the GOP equals all kinds of bad PR.

Sit back and let major commercial media save us!

I assume that's some kind of sick joke.

63 palomino  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:47:15am

re: #60 erik_t

The GOP's current platform can absolutely be made to be harmful to the GOP, in the same way that the old Gilded Age fell apart. But 'backfire' implies that it's a self-fulfilling intrinsic result, which is assuredly untrue. It took active effort and real sacrifice to fight these forces a hundred years ago, and it will take active effort again.

'Backfire' suggests we can sit back and watch the whole rotten pile crumble from within. Maybe we could, with time, if we wanted to watch the country crumble with it... I don't really like that route.

Comparisons made by liberals to the Gilded Age used to seem a little silly, if not outright hyperbolic. Even I thought so, and I'm a liberal. Things have changed dramatically--Now there's no denying that the gop goal is a new Gilded Age, since everything starting with the Progressive Era (right after the Gilded Age) is now posited by the gop as leading to our downfall.

Remember Bush's "compassionate conservativsm." The GOP is now embarrassed by that compassionate moniker and runs away from it, presumably because it sounds gay and socialistic, not in-your-face reactionary which is their current style.

64 erik_t  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:48:10am

re: #63 palomino

Thank Ailes first and foremost.

Piece of rotten dogshit.

65 palomino  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 11:54:29am

re: #64 erik_t

Thank Ailes first and foremost.

Piece of rotten dogshit.

Even Murdoch himself is a voice of reason compared to Ailes, who continues to defy all medical logic regarding morbid obesity at such an advanced age.

66 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 12:15:12pm

re: #59 palomino

Every elderly/minority/poor person that lacks ID is screwed in multiple ways. Today we are focused on their vote. Which is just the start of the problems for those people.

If it's too late top undo the ID laws, the smart play becomes to push ID out to those who need it. For free as necessary.
The benefits to them will be immediate. That will help them every week, not just every election cycle.

67 Amory Blaine  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 12:18:30pm

re: #11 Charles Johnson

The "affidavit" provision is simply another way to intimidate voters, disguised as a "reasonable" provision. The entire Voter ID premise is false, and the amount of energy the GOP puts toward disguising their true intention is very telling.

Here in Wisconsin, there is a republican who has lost, who has lost the recount, but still will not give the seat to the proper winner. The GOP is claiming massive voter fraud, they are intimidating poll workers, election officials, even their own gop officials.

No other way to put it. Republicans are scum. They are taking a system that has no evidence of voter fraud and shamelessly are injecting doubt into our voting system in order to play dirty tricks. The media is either complacent or outright encouraging this behavior.

68 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 12:21:19pm

If you can't win an election ethically then lie, cheat and steal it.

69 Amory Blaine  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 12:27:08pm

re: #67 Amory Blaine


Who's Calling The Shots In The Racine Recount?

So what's the point? A lawsuit of course. Republicans will appeal the sure to be upheld recount using the bogus bag scandal as their cause. They will venue shop a partial judge in some other part if the state and say those bags containing approximately 4000 vote should be withheld from the election.

Ultimately, it probably won't work - but it will delay the transfer of Senate majority power meaning committee assignments, offices, staff and of course access to some materials like the redistricting memos can't be authorized by Democrats.

Yes, they are that petty. Why would a big-shot lawyer from Micheal Best & Friedrich spend two weeks in a cramped Racine Court House conference room making up objections and grilling poll workers if there wasn't something big at stake?

Van Wanggaard could stop this whole charade if he wanted. But he was told to get out of town and keep his mouth shut...and that's exactly what he has done.

70 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 12:28:46pm

re: #69 Amory Blaine

I am not surprised. They are doing the same things in PA.

71 Amory Blaine  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 12:32:50pm

Wisconsin Rep. Robin Vos says voter fraud accounted for a portion of Lehman’s victory margin over Wanggaard in Senate recall


Excerpt:

The idea that the election results were tainted was advanced most aggressively by state Rep. Robin Vos, R-Rochester, whose Assembly district is part of the 21st Senate District. He offered his views June 17, 2012 on WISN-TV (Channel 12) "Upfront with Mike Gousha."

"Unfortunately, a portion of (the vote) was fraud," Vos said, adding "I’m not sure the entire 800 vote margin was..."

Gousha interrupted and asked Vos if he could make the statement about fraud "with certainty."

"I can, a portion," Vos said. "Yeah, I do believe that."

When we asked Vos to back up his claim, he noted that the Racine County Sheriff’s Department is investigating two election-related issues -- election registration documents found in a dumpster, and complaints by a poll worker at one polling place. And he said he heard second hand that someone tried to use a Bed Bath and Beyond mailer as proof of address.

"Is that fraud? I don’t know. It isn’t right and it seems fraudulent," he said. "You tell me how that’s not a fraudulent vote."

"I did not personally witness any voter fraud," Vos said. "But some portion of what happened could be classified as fraud."

72 Kragar  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 12:36:34pm

re: #71 Amory Blaine

Wisconsin Rep. Robin Vos says voter fraud accounted for a portion of Lehman’s victory margin over Wanggaard in Senate recall

Excerpt:

There had to be fraud, thats the only way a Republican could loose an election. After all, Rush keeps saying the most conservative candidate will always win, so its the only logical explanation.

73 palomino  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 12:36:35pm

re: #66 Daniel Ballard

Every elderly/minority/poor person that lacks ID is screwed in multiple ways. Today we are focused on their vote. Which is just the start of the problems for those people.

If it's too late top undo the ID laws, the smart play becomes to push ID out to those who need it. For free as necessary.
The benefits to them will be immediate. That will help them every week, not just every election cycle.

If only the new state laws in question had actually made it a priority to "push ID out to those who need it."

Unfortunately that wasn't their purpose.

74 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 12:44:25pm

re: #73 palomino

I would not expect that from the states. But I see nothing to stop others from encouraging and assisting these groups to get ID. Maybe NYC provides an example...

[Link: www.nyc.gov...]

[Link: www.nyc.gov...]

75 Eventual Carrion  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 12:50:56pm

re: #71 Amory Blaine

Wisconsin Rep. Robin Vos says voter fraud accounted for a portion of Lehman’s victory margin over Wanggaard in Senate recall

Excerpt:

There you go. 2, possibly 3 strange cases that can be attributed to this election should invalidate the other 797 votes that make up the margin of victory.

76 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 12:52:00pm

I trust the GOP on voter rights as much as I trust them on science.

77 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 12:54:21pm

re: #61 researchok

Pretty simple, really.

All American Ma and Pa Kettle on the Six O'clock news as examples of voters disenfranchised by the GOP equals all kinds of bad PR.

Firstly, FOX has more than demonstrated that it is all too easy to win the PR war and convince people to vote against their best interests.

But even if it does come out as bad PR, so what? When you block those who dislike you from any power, what are they going to do? All the anger in the world does you no good when you don't get a vote.

78 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 1:01:30pm

re: #77 Renaissance_Man

Yes, the Duckworth/Walsh kerfuffle really worked out in Walsh's favor after the PR debacle.
/

Like I said, if it happens, it won't end up well for the GOP.

As for the votes, there are provisions for conditional ballots.

79 dell*nix  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 1:12:33pm

The following picture seems to sum up the current discussion.

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

80 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 1:13:59pm

re: #78 researchok

Yes, the Duckworth/Walsh kerfuffle really worked out in Walsh's favor after the PR debacle.
/

Like I said, if it happens, it won't end up well for the GOP.

As for the votes, there are provisions for conditional ballots.

I'd rather fight them now then give them the chance to frack up the electorate for their own gains.

81 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 1:16:30pm

re: #80 Varek Raith

That is a valid argument.

82 teresa  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 1:24:53pm

They do this because they know they can't win with their ideas, so instead they make sure people who will vote for Democrats can't vote. What is really troubling is that Dem's have not really made an issue of this and news organizations basically ignore what is going on.

83 A Mom Anon  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 1:28:42pm

re: #54 A Mom Anon

Correcting myself:

Actually there are opponents to some of the GOP candidates here,but you rarely see or hear about them until you go to the polls and see their names on the ballot. No ads,no signs,hell you're lucky if you see them interviewed on the local news.

My GOP congresscritter, Phil Gingrey, has had a challenger in the last two elections,first time the guy ran as independent,this time he's running as a dem. Probably thinking he'd get some money and backing from the local dem party. Um,no. Especially since he thought it would be a fabulous idea to disavow most of the dem platform.

Next district over,Tom Price had a conservative dem challenger a few years ago and the GOP flooded the area with ads,Price was all over the news,and the challenger barely fought back,saved his money til the last few days of the campaign and lost. Yay local dems. RAH. I guess what I should have said is that the GOP candidates might as well run opposed,the dems here are weak and won't fight,so of course they lose,over and over.

84 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 1:30:17pm

re: #83 A Mom Anon

We have that here in the SF Valley. Except it's the other way around party wise. The joke here is every election our congressman runs against himself, and loses anyway.

85 Amory Blaine  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 1:30:18pm

re: #82 teresa

They do this because they know they can't win with their ideas, so instead they make sure people who will vote for Democrats can't vote. What is really troubling is that Dem's have not really made an issue of this and news organizations basically ignore what is going on.

IDK. Their message of division, scapegoating and outright lies works well for them here in Wisconsin.

86 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 1:32:46pm

re: #84 Daniel Ballard

We have that here in the SF Valley. Except it's the other way around party wise. The joke here is every election our congressman runs against himself, and loses anyway.

Yup,, same when I lived just outside of Boston

87 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 1:34:16pm

re: #86 sattv4u2

It's a long time since the GOP ran LA or California. The Democrats own it policy/legislation/budget wise.

88 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 1:38:47pm

re: #87 Daniel Ballard

It's a long time since the GOP ran LA or California. The Democrats own it policy/legislation/budget wise.

This is untrue on a number of levels.

First of all, there's a long history of GOP governors of California. There isn't currently one, but there have been many, and governors are pretty powerful in California.

Second, the budgetary process in California is massively screwed up; it is much easier to increase spending than it is to increase taxation. The supermajorities necessary to pass taxation schemes means that the GOP can easily obstruct the budget, and they have done so frequently.

89 Kragar  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 1:40:21pm

Smoke from Wyoming's Fontenelle FIre was visible aboard the International Space Station on June 27, 2012.

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

90 teresa  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 1:41:17pm

re: #85 Amory Blaine

What are voting laws like in Wisconsin? I know the Koch fanbois have been trying to enact more draconian voter restriction laws every state they can, wasn't Wisconsin one of their key targets? But it's weird, that Democrats generally win in Wisconsin when it comes to the national election.
But I stand by what I wrote, their ideas are horrible, and they are so horrible in order to win they must limit the pool of voters. Let's face it, Republicans are the party of white old guys, who are angry at the rest of us for not being like them.

91 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 1:41:38pm

re: #88 Obdicut

How many GOP majorities have their been in the State House?

92 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 1:46:52pm

re: #88 Obdicut

I think my point about LA is close to indisputable.

State level-The Governors office is famously weak when it fights the legislature here.
One way to see this is compare Arnold s first term rhetoric and his winning second term rhetoric. Now Jerry Brown is learning it's a very different game than when he first took office so long ago. He is being thwarted regularly. The legislature runs this state in many critical ways. Some of that is power radiating off budget and public safety policies of course.

93 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 1:47:34pm

One hour ago - 108.
Now - 77.

94 Amory Blaine  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 1:48:08pm

re: #90 teresa

Judge rules Wisconsin's voter ID law unconstitutional

Wisconsin Attorney General not optimistic Voter ID law will be settled by November

Wisconsin Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen said Friday he is not optimistic two lawsuits against the Voter ID Law will be settled by November.

“I’m not optimistic that they’ll (the appeals courts) even get the case before the election,” Van Hollen said to Charlie Sykes on WTMJ radio. “We have pulled every legal maneuver out of our books here at the Department of Justice to try to get this case moving along.

The cases were filed over the Voter ID Law in Circuit Courts, WTMJ said.

On March 6, Dane County Circuit Court Judge David Flanagan ordered the Government Accountability Board and Governor Walker to “cease immediately any effort to enforce or implement the photo identification requirements of 2011 Wisconsin Act 23, pending trial of this case and further order of the court,” according to the GAB’s website.

On March 12, Dane County Circuit Judge Judge Richard Niess declared "2011 Wisconsin Act 23’s photo ID requirements unconstitutional to the extent they serve as a condition for voting at the polls." The judge also permanently enjoined the defendants "from any further implementation or enforcement of those provisions."

The high court sent the cases back to their respective Court of Appeals on April 16. Since then, no court dates have been set.

95 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 1:49:47pm

re: #93 Varek Raith

One hour ago - 108.
Now - 77.

You don't look a day over 75!

96 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 1:50:34pm

re: #92 Daniel Ballard

I don't recall for sure, but when elected didn't the Governator ask how big the California budget was- and was told no one really knew?

Is that recollection apocryphal or real?

97 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 1:54:02pm

re: #96 researchok

I think that was some rhetoric aimed at the fuzzy/flawed/rosy scenario based nature of the revenue forecasts.

98 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 1:55:56pm

re: #92 Daniel Ballard

I think my point about LA is close to indisputable.

State level-The Governors office is famously weak when it fights the legislature here.
One way to see this is compare Arnold s first term rhetoric and his winning second term rhetoric. Now Jerry Brown is learning it's a very different game than when he first took office so long ago. He is being thwarted regularly. The legislature runs this state in many critical ways. Some of that is power radiating off budget and public safety policies of course.

Most of the budgetary dysfunction comes from the secondary effect of Prop 13:

In addition to decreasing property taxes, the initiative also contained language requiring a two-thirds majority in both legislative houses for future increases of any state tax rates or amounts of revenue collected, including income tax rates. It also requires a two-thirds vote majority in local elections for local governments wishing to increase special taxes.

Do the math on that and you'll see that Democrats could theoretically control the entire State House and have 26 out of 40 seats on the State Senate and the Republicans could still block any tax increase. The situation is completely ridiculous.

99 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 1:56:57pm

re: #97 Daniel Ballard

Truth is, California really is an outlier be it political, cultural or social.

The major population centers just overwhelm the rest of the state.

100 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 1:58:53pm

re: #98 goddamnedfrank

Yet California taxes are quite high after you look at all of them.

[Link: latimesblogs.latimes.com...]

By one measure, at least, California isn’t No. 1 in taxes overall: A Tax Foundation study last year that looked at the combined state and local tax burdens shouldered by Americans ranked the Golden State No. 6, after New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, Maryland and Hawaii.

And now we begin the bullet train boondoggle.

101 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 1:59:48pm

re: #98 goddamnedfrank

Right- but California's budget woes long preceded Prop 13- and those problems were in part the impetus for Prop 13.

Which is a shame- California is and always has been a potential paradise.

102 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:01:04pm

re: #99 researchok

Truth is, California really is an outlier be it political, cultural or social.

The major population centers just overwhelm the rest of the state.

Same can be said about lots of states

Massachusetts comes to mind

Take out Boston and it's immediate suburbs, add Worcester and Springfield and the rest of the state is sparse.

103 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:01:08pm

re: #100 Daniel Ballard

Are businesses still relocating out of state or has that settled down?

104 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:04:15pm

re: #102 sattv4u2

True- I recall visiting the Berkshires and thinking this is another state altogether.

Reminds me of an article I read once on Canada- no matter who the country votes for, the Province of Ontario can steamroll the rest of the country- they are that big and powerful.

105 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:06:36pm

re: #104 researchok

heh
ROUTE 128 makes a big semi-circle about 10 miles out of Boston

We used to say anything outside of 128 was New York!!

106 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:06:58pm

re: #103 researchok

Hard to say. So many just folded. Demand is still weak so hiring has followed suit as it must.

And this...
Nickelsburg and Ahluwalia find that for Japan high-speed rail does not seem to have any significant aggregate economic development component. Their results cast doubt on the economic benefit claims for CHSRL. In a separate study of the Japanese system they also found that high-speed rail tends to create sprawl as it lowers the cost for commuters and makes more far-flung locations possible bedroom communities. This may be a benefit or detriment, depending on one’s viewpoint. They conclude that "there may be good reasons to invest in CHSRL including the possibility that CHSRL is the optimal infrastructure investment for a growing population; but the economic argument, the jobs argument, does not seem to stand on solid ground.”

107 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:08:18pm

re: #92 Daniel Ballard

I think my point about LA is close to indisputable.

I wasn't talking about LA, but California.

Are you going to address the issue of the minority party-- the GOP-- being able to obstruct the budget, as they have done repeatedly?

The Governor can't override the legislature, sure. But the governor still has a lot of power, and California has had a lot of governors.

Saying California has been run by the Democrats is simply untrue.

108 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:08:54pm

re: #101 researchok

Right- but California's budget woes long preceded Prop 13- and those problems were in part the impetus for Prop 13.

Which is a shame- California is and always has been a potential paradise.

I'm sorry, can you explain how the budget woes were the impetus for prop 13?

109 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:11:49pm

re: #108 Obdicut

I said in part

The original impetus as I recall were ever increasing property taxes

110 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:11:57pm

re: #102 sattv4u2

Take out Boston and it's immediate suburbs, add Worcester and Springfield and the rest of the state is sparse.

If you include the entire eastern half of the state as the 'immediate suburbs', I guess.

But not really, no.

Image: map-population-density-Massachusetts.png

111 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:12:20pm

re: #109 researchok

I said in part

The original impetus as I recall were ever increasing property taxes

Okay, can you explain how it was 'in part' an impetus for it?

112 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:13:23pm

re: #107 Obdicut

Opinion varies on exactly what was obstruction, what to blame Prop 13 for, and losing efforts to forced needed changes.

[Link: blogs.sacbee.com...]

"The state budget is a reflection of priorities and there is no reason to hold our schools hostage to the uncertainties of the proposed tax increase initiative that may not benefit our students," GOP legislative and budget leaders wrote in a joint letter. "With political will, we can work together in a bipartisan manner to ensure that our schools are protected from trigger cuts, whether the Governor's tax initiative is ultimately accepted or rejected by the voters."

Democrats have all but written off Republicans in this year's budget process because they have majority-vote budget authority and are going directly to voters for a tax hike on sales and upper-income earners. Brown has said that if voters reject the tax hike, the state will need to cut about $2.4 billion in K-14 classroom funds, equal to three weeks of school, as well as cut $200 million each from the state's university systems.

Republicans argue that it remains possible to balance the state budget without new taxes as the economy recovers and revenues grow. Many of their proposals are similar to those that Democrats relied upon in the past or have been suggested by the nonpartisan Legislative Analyst's Office.

Read more here: [Link: blogs.sacbee.com...]

113 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:13:43pm

re: #111 Obdicut

Yes.

Ever increasing taxes are an indication of a budget out of control.

114 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:15:53pm

re: #112 Daniel Ballard

So, this year, the Democrats are going around the obstructionism of the GOP on the budget by taking a tax increase to a popular vote.

Doesn't that easily demonstrate what I and goddamnedfrank said? That the supermajority necessary to pass budgets allows the minority party-- the GOP-- to obstruct the budget?

In many ways, the situation in California predicted that in the US at large; the GOP became more and more obstinant, less and less willing to compromise, and started hostage taking with every budget.

The main difference being that the California GOP generally was obstructing not just to gut any tax increases, but also to add their own pork barrel spending.

115 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:18:49pm

re: #113 researchok

Yes.

Ever increasing taxes are an indication of a budget out of control.

What do you mean by 'ever'? What were the property tax increases prior to Prop 13 passing?

116 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:18:53pm

re: #110 Obdicut

If you include the entire eastern half of the state as the 'immediate suburbs', I guess.

But not really, no.

Image: map-population-density-Massachusetts.png

The red parts are Boston and it's immediate burbs (and not the entire eastern half as evidenced by that sparseness south of Quincy area yet north of the top of the Cape) , Worcester and Springfield.

So really, yes

117 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:20:20pm

re: #114 Obdicut

I do not agree that we have a meaningful comparison between the California minority and the DC majority as it exists now. Here we have far more some workable proposals from the republicans than DC. Of course Democratic partisans will vehemently disagree at that point. Cutting state employee pay instead of educational spending is a legit alternative. Conclusions will likely fall along party lines however.

118 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:20:25pm

re: #116 sattv4u2

The red parts are Boston and it's immediate burbs (and not the entire eastern half as evidenced by that sparseness south of Quincy area yet north of the top of the Cape) , Worcester and Springfield.

So really, yes

Okay, using your own special definition of 'sparse', I guess.

119 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:21:25pm

re: #115 Obdicut

There was no established limit.

The Prop limited raises to 2%. per year and assessed value at 1% of cash value.

120 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:21:42pm

Say. Those California prison dentists still making an average of $283,000 per year? Minus benefits no doubt. 20 years and they get to retire on a full pension. I wonder if they double dip on those pensions like the cops. Can you accidentally inject yourself and get disability, social security plus the pension?

121 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:22:43pm

re: #117 Daniel Ballard

Can you at least acknowledge that, due to the supermajority provisions in Prop 13, it is not true to say that the Democrats have run California? Thanks to the 2/3 majority necessary for tax increases, the GOP has been able to obstruct anything revenue-related they've wanted to-- with the result that spending is easier to increase than taxation, which is obviously a goddamn problem.

I know that in this day and age of the GOP being such batshit lunatics it's tempting to try to find something that can be all the Democrats fault, but California ain't it.

Stick with LA.

122 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:23:27pm
123 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:23:47pm

What about prior to Prop 13?

California State Legislature:

Both chambers of the California legislature have been dominated by the Democratic Party since 1959 except in 1969 to 1971 when the Republican Party held both chambers and from 1994 to 1996, when the they briefly held a majority in the Assembly.

124 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:25:42pm

re: #120 Gus

Which, if accurate, would make them slightly above the average pay for a private sector dentist.

The prison system in California is one of the bigger problems with governance in the state, but as outrageous salaries go, the dentists aren't that bad.

125 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:26:32pm

re: #124 Obdicut

Which, if accurate, would make them slightly above the average pay for a private sector dentist.

The prison system in California is one of the bigger problems with governance in the state, but as outrageous salaries go, the dentists aren't that bad.

Over-payed government dentists serving the prison-industrial complex.

126 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:27:09pm

re: #117 Daniel Ballard

See this: Los Angeles approves $7.2B city budget

128 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:28:28pm

re: #121 Obdicut

No, but I likely have less emphasis on "run" than you do. Republican legislative wins are few and far between. Governors of both parties are regularly thwarted. Then you have what researchok pointed out in 123.

And budget is just one big responsibility. The trend shows in many kinds of bills that pass that legislature.

129 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:28:59pm

re: #124 Obdicut

Slightly above average?

The median expected salary for a typical Dentist in the United States is $142,090. This basic market pricing report was prepared using our Certified Compensation Professionals' analysis of survey data collected from thousands of HR departments at employers of all sizes, industries and geographies.

Source.

130 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:30:26pm

re: #129 researchok

Slightly above average?

Source.

Plus I seriously doubt that a private dentist gets the same perks such as health insurance, pensions, retirement, vacations, etc. The standard seems to be a lot of these government workers working ONLY 20 years and retiring on a full pension.

131 erik_t  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:30:34pm

re: #129 researchok

Slightly above average?

Source.

Cool, a national number. Would you like to compare California private sector wages? You know, an actual meaningful and valid comparison?

I mean, what the hell do rural wages in Nebraska have to do with anything?

132 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:31:55pm

re: #127 Gus

Oh look. More waste. 1/2 a billion for one (1) high school.

Line of the day:

"New buildings are nice, but when they're run by the same people who've given us a 50 percent dropout rate, they're a big waste of taxpayer money," said Ben Austin, executive director of Parent Revolution who sits on the California Board of Education. "Parents aren't fooled."

At RFK, the features include fine art murals and a marble memorial depicting the complex's namesake, a manicured public park, a state-of-the-art swimming pool and preservation of pieces of the original hotel.

Closes thing we had to a pool were busted urinals.
/

133 Obdicut  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:31:56pm

You know what? I'm in California for my vacation now, and I miss it like hell. Rather than trying to push back against this bizarre desire to talk about just how awful California Democrats are, I'm going to go for a run up and down the Lyon Street steps.

Image: lyon-steps-bootcamp1.jpg

If any of you ever visit SF, make sure to get to Lyon Street and take in the view from the top of the steps. Then, if you're uber enough, run up and down them.

(sliding down the railing is acceptable but can lead to faceplanting, ass-burn, and mulch in the socks).

134 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:34:19pm

re: #131 erik_t

California prisons are often in rural areas. Far less costly to live and work there as compared to SF or LA.

135 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:34:23pm

re: #131 erik_t

OK.

In LA, the average salary is about 156k.

Source.

136 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:34:30pm

re: #132 researchok

Line of the day:

Closes thing we had to a pool were busted urinals.
/

Of course wasting money is not eco-friendly or green either. This is not sustainable and has to come under control. Kicking the can down the road is not working and sooner or later someone will have to pay the loans/debt off.

137 blueraven  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:35:08pm

RIP Ernest Borgnine

First Sheriff Andy and now Skipper McHale

138 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:35:27pm

re: #133 Obdicut

On that we agree.

I love the place. If it weren't for earthquakes (read: fear of) I'd live their in heartbeat.

139 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:37:14pm

re: #133 Obdicut

You know what? I'm in California for my vacation now, and I miss it like hell. Rather than trying to push back against this bizarre desire to talk about just how awful California Democrats are, I'm going to go for a run up and down the Lyon Street steps.

Image: lyon-steps-bootcamp1.jpg

If any of you ever visit SF, make sure to get to Lyon Street and take in the view from the top of the steps. Then, if you're uber enough, run up and down them.

(sliding down the railing is acceptable but can lead to faceplanting, ass-burn, and mulch in the socks).

I don't blame the Democrats. I blame all of them. Republicans have their hand in the "law and order" mentality that has led to the prison-complex for example. The same is true with the overt defense spending. It's time everyone stopped blaming each other and started looking for a) solutions and b) consensus. It can be done. Time to bring back democracy to, well, democracy.

140 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:37:34pm

re: #137 blueraven

RIP Ernest Borgnine

First Sheriff Andy and now Skipper McHale

Crap. Really?

141 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:37:54pm

re: #133 Obdicut

Well heck, enjoy the visit. I love my home state and have no plans to move. Not even if I got wealthy. SF is a great city, and the Sierras are hard to beat for natural beauty.

I just got back from Arizona, which is a wonderful beautiful place in many ways. Who would expect that after all the bad press about the Giffords shooting and immigration controversies? Heck I dropped a credit card in the hotel lobby, and by the time I got to my room my wife was on the phone after hearing from the front desk, where my card had been turned in already.

142 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:39:04pm

re: #136 Gus

Of course wasting money is not eco-friendly or green either. This is not sustainable and has to come under control. Kicking the can down the road is not working and sooner or later someone will have to pay the loans/debt off.

Right.

Part of the problem is cultural.

We got used to leasing cars instead of buying them, living on credit and then rejecting the discipline needed to get our house in order.

Some people go without, don't complain and get their shit together.

Even when it comes later rather than sooner.

143 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:40:08pm

re: #139 Gus

No truer words.

144 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:40:33pm

re: #137 blueraven

RIP Ernest Borgnine

First Sheriff Andy and now Skipper McHale Marty

great performance,,, GREAT

145 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:44:25pm

Ernest Borgnine
Born Ermes Effron Borgnino
24 January 1917-8 July 2012
Age: 95

"So long skipper."

146 JWBurns  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:47:44pm

This is a little off-topic.
Love the blog, I don't understand the ads.

This site still has ads geared torward conservatives on a regular basis. In addition, I've noticed a new banner for psychic readings.

Psychic readings, Really? I have no problems with Charles making some $$ off ads on the site, but isn't linking to hucksters and charlatans kinda trashy?

147 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:47:49pm

re: #145 Gus

He always came across as a nice man.

A rare commodity nowadays.

148 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:48:58pm

re: #146 JWBurns

This is a little off-topic.
Love the blog, I don't understand the ads.

This site still has ads geared torward conservatives on a regular basis. In addition, I've noticed a new banner for psychic readings.

Psychic readings, Really? I have no problems with Charles making some $$ off ads on the site, but isn't linking to hucksters and charlatans kinda trashy?

They knew you were going to post that!

149 blueraven  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:49:01pm

re: #140 Gus

Crap. Really?

Yep...he was a hell of a character actor

From the real asshole in From Here to Eternity

To the really nice guy in Marty

150 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:49:11pm

re: #146 JWBurns

I'm pretty sure he's at the mercy of an aggregator.

151 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:49:20pm

Obdicut, just in case you subscribed to the thread...

[Link: www.lompocrecord.com...]


The false and misleading argument to repeal Prop. 13 or parts thereof is that so many people hold onto their homes and commercial buildings that government is not getting the money it needs to provide basic services. The reality is that government is getting plenty of money, but it has been spending at a rate that is not sustainable.

For instance, the total assessed value of all property in Santa Barbara County in 1991 was $22.6 billion. In 2011, the value was $62.7 billion. Further, the total assessed value has never gone negative in this 20-year period, despite the real estate crash. More to the point, when the real estate market was booming before the crash of 2008, and the valuation of property and property taxes was increasing by double digits, the state still claimed it was broke.

Looking at some other post-Prop. 13 trends over time, in 1982 the county budget was $142 million. In 1992, it was $344 million, an increase of 142 percent. In 2002, the county budget was up to $608 million, and in 2012, up to $844 million. Since 1982, the population growth in Santa Barbara County was 41 percent, but the budget has grown by 494 percent.

Here is the rest of the story that politicians and their activist friends like to ignore.

After Prop. 13 passed, despite the fact revenues continued to increase to government coffers, governments at every level started charging fees to make up the perceived loss of property tax revenues.

One type they imposed are called mitigation fees, used to supplement funds to build and maintain such things as roads, schools and libraries. The idea is that new construction creates additional traffic and other types of impacts, which must be mitigated.

Despite the fact that some people are calling for the elimination of Prop. 13 in whole or in part, nobody is proposing to eliminate the corresponding fee programs that were justified by virtue of Prop. 13. These fees are significant. And worse, they make no sense. They are just a means of taxation under the guise of impact fees.

An example? If somebody wants to build a 2,000-square-foot, 24-hour convenience store in Goleta, the traffic fee alone would be $664,028. A 4,000-square-foot bank with a drive-through would be charged $2,207,224 in traffic fees.

Read more: [Link: www.lompocrecord.com...]

152 A Mom Anon  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:49:23pm

re: #133 Obdicut

We went to SF in 2008,rented a car and drove up the coast to Crescent City.It was so pretty,it took my breath away. We spent the week in the redwood forests and took a day trip to Crater Lake in Oregon. Then we went back to SF for a couple of days. I loved it there. So much I cried on the whole flight home. If I could live anywhere,I think it would be just north of SF someplace. It was so lovely and the people were awesome. I'm hoping we can go there again on our 20th anniversary next summer. I doubt we will ever be able to actually move there,but it would make me happy if we could. When I die,I want my ashes scattered somewhere near an old redwood.

153 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:54:48pm

re: #137 blueraven

RIP Ernest Borgnine

First Sheriff Andy and now Skipper McHale

Damn...I liked both of them in their signature roles (not to mention Borgnine in Airwolf; yeah, I'm an 80s kid ;-P)

Watch out, because celebrity deaths seem to come in threes; first Griffith, then Borgnine. Unless I missed someone in the past week, someone else may shuffle off their mortal coil, which would still suck.

154 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:55:19pm

re: #152 A Mom Anon

Marin County, just over the Golden Gate, just blew me away.

Sausalito, Mill Valley... just beautiful.

155 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:55:44pm

re: #153 SunshineSuperman

Damn...I liked both of them in their signature roles (not to mention Borgnine in Airwolf; yeah, I'm an 80s kid ;-P)

Watch out, because celebrity deaths seem to come in threes; first Griffith, then Borgnine. Unless I missed someone in the past week, someone else may shuffle off their mortal coil, which would still suck.

Must stop thinking about Eli Wallach.

156 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:57:10pm

re: #154 researchok

Marin County, just over the Golden Gate, just blew me away.

Sausalito, Mill Valley... just beautiful.

Paradise Drive.

157 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:58:01pm

Hayward

//

158 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:58:15pm

re: #153 SunshineSuperman

.I liked both of them in their signature roles

If by "signature rolls" you mean Will Stockdale (Griffith,,, No Time for Sergeants) and Marty (Borgine,,, Marty) then yes !!!!

yeah, I'm an 80s kid

Yeah ,, I'm a 50's kid!!!

159 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:59:19pm

re: #151 Daniel Ballard

Gus is right- they are all guilty of mismanagement.

The California of today was decades in the making.

No clean hands in Sacramento- or DC for that matter.

The longer we put the blame on one side or the other without apportioning it to where it really belongs- a broken system- the longer we will have to pay the price.

160 blueraven  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:59:32pm

re: #146 JWBurns

This is a little off-topic.
Love the blog, I don't understand the ads.

This site still has ads geared torward conservatives on a regular basis. In addition, I've noticed a new banner for psychic readings.

Psychic readings, Really? I have no problems with Charles making some $$ off ads on the site, but isn't linking to hucksters and charlatans kinda trashy?

I dont think you understand the internets. /

161 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 2:59:35pm

re: #157 Gus

LOLOL

162 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:00:27pm
163 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:02:01pm
164 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:02:30pm

re: #163 Gus

Seriously?

Wolf is such a dick.

165 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:03:31pm

re: #158 sattv4u2


.I liked both of them in their signature roles

If by "signature rolls" you mean Will Stockdale (Griffith,,, No Time for Sergeants) and Marty (Borgine,,, Marty) then yes !!!

yeah, I'm an 80s kid

Yeah ,, I'm a 50's kid!!!

I was thinking about their signature TV roles (in The Andy Griffith Show and McHale's Navy, respectively; the roles that everyone knows them for).

166 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:04:31pm

re: #164 Varek Raith

Wolf is such a dick.

CNN sucks. Another waste of time. Apparently they have S.E. Cupp and Toure yapping away right now. Or maybe they just finished. Two geniuses right there I tell ya.

167 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:05:39pm

re: #163 Gus

Walsh is a ass.

All Duckworth did was give him platform for his performance.

168 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:06:51pm

re: #166 Gus

What, you're looking for insight on cable TV?
//

169 blueraven  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:07:18pm

re: #165 SunshineSuperman

I was thinking about their signature TV roles (in The Andy Griffith Show and McHale's Navy, respectively; the roles that everyone knows them for).

Satt has to argue every point for some strange reason. Obviously my post compared two lovable TV characters.

If I were comparing their respective movie roles it would have been

"A Face in the Crowd" to "Marty"

170 Lidane  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:08:14pm
There’s some fraud going on here, that’s for sure — the Republican Party’s fraudulent claims that Voter ID laws are needed for any other reason than to give Republicans an advantage in the presidential election, by preventing people who normally lean Democratic from voting.

That's how the GOP wins. Gerrymander the hell out of a district to ensure a conservative majority (see: Texas) then disenfranchise everyone else.

171 Lidane  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:09:01pm
172 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:09:42pm

re: #168 researchok

What, you're looking for insight on cable TV?
//

I can't watch TV anymore. Broadcast news, cable, local, or anything else for that matter. Gave up on it so long ago I lost count. Might be going on 8 years now. I'll watch clips on the internet or a movie or a series once in a while. But to own a TV and subscribe to cable? Nah.

173 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:10:44pm

re: #165 SunshineSuperman

I was thinking about their signature TV roles (in The Andy Griffith Show and McHale's Navy, respectively; the roles that everyone knows them for).

Marty
Academy Award for Best Actor
BAFTA Award for Best Foreign Actor
Golden Globe Award for Best Actor – Motion Picture Drama
National Board of Review Award for Best Actor
New York Film Critics Circle Award for Best Actor

helluva signature, right there!!

174 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:12:26pm

re: #172 Gus

You're a better man than me.

You have no idea how many times a day I just roll my eyes and want to throw a brick at the screen.

The damn box has dumbed down a whole nation.

175 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:14:18pm

re: #169 blueraven

Having an opinion is arguing "every point"

I did not know that

Thanks

176 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:14:36pm

re: #18 erik_t

I propose that we also make voters stand one one foot while voting, in order to ensure that, uh, they are of balanced mind, or something.

Equally worthwhile and equally justifiable.

Not true, sir. The reason for that particular provision of the Texas Voter ID law is that Texas has a substantial number of non-citizens attending its schools and universities. Such people need ID to attend school, but are not eligible to vote. Allowing the use of student IDs would open up a way for non-citizens to vote, and that is not permissible.

177 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:15:22pm

There are people who believe watching a 3 minute news segment is enough for them to understand a news story.

There are people who watch an hour long special on whales or spotted owls- and believe they really know everything there is to know about whales or spotted owls.

No matter people spend a lifetime studying these things.

178 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:15:23pm

re: #174 researchok

You're a better man than me.

You have no idea how many times a day I just roll my eyes and want to throw a brick at the screen.

The damn box has dumbed down a whole nation.

Yep. It's not just the content but the commercials. The consumerism which people confuse for materialism. Buy, buy, buy! If you don't buy this product you're a loser! You'll sit there for 10 minutes watching some drama and then boom! 4 minutes of obnoxious commercials. Over and over again. Sometimes watching the same commercial for a dozen times in 2 hours.

179 Lidane  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:15:30pm

re: #172 Gus

I can't watch TV anymore. Broadcast news, cable, local, or anything else for that matter. Gave up on it so long ago I lost count. Might be going on 8 years now. I'll watch clips on the internet or a movie or a series once in a while. But to own a TV and subscribe to cable? Nah.

I'm pretty much at that point myself. I can't justify paying for cable anymore when there's Netflix, Redbox, and Hulu and most news is streamed online or has video anyway.

I think when I start working again I'm just going to get an internet connection and pay for both Hulu and Netflix then use them through my XBox 360. Screw paying for hundreds of channels I almost never watch anymore.

180 blueraven  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:15:58pm

re: #175 sattv4u2

Having an opinion is arguing "every point"

I did not know that

Thanks

Yes, really

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

181 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:17:43pm

re: #179 Lidane

I'm pretty much at that point myself. I can't justify paying for cable anymore when there's Netflix, Redbox, and Hulu and most news is streamed online or has video anyway.

I think when I start working again I'm just going to get an internet connection and pay for both Hulu and Netflix then use them through my XBox 360. Screw paying for hundreds of channels I almost never watch anymore.

Netflix is going through the roof with streaming.

182 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:17:52pm

re: #180 blueraven

Yes, really

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

So you think he was better as Skipper Mchale than he was at Marty

REMEMBER,,, my comment was "great performance,,, GREAT"

183 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:17:57pm

re: #178 Gus

Absolutely.

The commercials/consumerism feed the culture.

Just buy this and you'll have the best (because we say it is the best..and besides,everyone else is buying this...)....just buy that and your problems are over.

All quick fixes.

184 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:18:59pm

re: #177 researchok

There are people who believe watching a 3 minute news segment is enough for them to understand a news story.

There are people who watch an hour long special on whales or spotted owls- and believe they really know everything there is to know about whales or spotted owls.

No matter people spend a lifetime studying these things.

Given that reality, I almost never claim the title of "Expert". Instead, on issues I know well I will call myself an 'RKI', which means "Reasonably Knowledgeable Individual". This makes the point that I am conversant on the issue while not claiming complete understanding of it .

185 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:20:17pm

re: #183 researchok

Absolutely.

The commercials/consumerism feed the culture.

Just buy this and you'll have the best (because we say it is teh best..and besides,everyone else is buying this...)...just buy that and your problems are over.

All quick fixes.

What's weird too is that people have started to become just like the TV characters they watch. You know how back in our time (more or less) we wanted to become an astronaut or a fireman. Now, they want to become some weirdo they watch on TV. Then you have the non-stop superstitious stuff with vampires or the dreaded History Channel. It's a world of derp.

186 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:20:37pm

re: #183 researchok

All quick fixes.

Side effects may include
Nausea
Irritability and short tempers
Hostility
Homicidal impulses
Rapid loss of mental clarity
Amnesia
Kidney failure
Diarrhea
Muscle aching and weakness
Tingling or cramping in the legs
Inability to walk
Problems sleeping
Constipation
Impaired muscle formation
Erectile dysfunction
Temperature regulation problems
Nerve damage
Mental confusion
Liver damage and abnormalities
Neuropathy

AND,,, if your erection lasts for more than 48 hours call a hooker

187 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:21:05pm

re: #184 Dark_Falcon

Understood.

There is a great difference between being an expert and having an opinion.

Sometimes, that distinction is lost.

188 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:21:09pm

re: #162 Varek Raith

Wolf Blitzer Chastises Tammy Duckworth for her treatment of Joe Walsh

MBFMBFMBFMBF!!!

That's why I don't watch Wolf Blitzer. He's like a parody of a news anchor, so devoid of value judgments he doesn't even seem human.

Some of this is just a bizarre fetishization of "balanced reporting." But CNN also seems to be cowed by the right wing noise machine, afraid to take a stand no matter how freaking crazy the wingnuts get.

Look what happened to Soledad O'Brien, for standing up to that Breitbart cretin Joel Pollak and his idiotic Obama Harvard story. She was vilified for months by those assholes, and now they watch her and jump on everything she says, and scream about it to CNN. The right does vendettas very well.

189 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:21:15pm

re: #173 sattv4u2

Marty
Academy Award for Best Actor
BAFTA Award for Best Foreign Actor
Golden Globe Award for Best Actor – Motion Picture Drama
National Board of Review Award for Best Actor
New York Film Critics Circle Award for Best Actor

helluva signature, right there!!

True enough, but most people nowadays may not have watched Griffith in No Time for Sergeants (I've seen bits and pieces) or Face in the Crowd (I've never watched it, but plan to) or Borgnine in Marty (I've never watched it). However, everyone knows The Andy Griffith Show and most know McHale's Navy (primarily from the movie remake a few years back).

It's unfortunate, but it's the vagaries of modern pop culture.

190 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:22:20pm

Public television is still good. I say that with reservations since last I saw they kind of ruined NOVA.

Too much of that shaky cam, split screen, driving bass, 30 second segments... ADD central.

191 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:23:03pm

re: #189 SunshineSuperman

Borgnine in Marty (I've never watched it).

May I suggest you do

192 Lidane  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:23:37pm

re: #181 Gus

Netflix is going through the roof with streaming.

Yeah. That's all I used until recently when I cut it off to save money. Once they started offering the instant streaming as a separate service I jumped on it.

Hell, I might be inclined to add the physical discs back to my subscription at some point, but I doubt it. There's usually a Redbox nearby where I can get the newer stuff so it's pretty much all instant streaming all the time for me.

193 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:24:23pm

re: #192 Lidane

Yeah. That's all I used until recently when I cut it off to save money. Once they started offering the instant streaming as a separate service I jumped on it.

Hell, I might be inclined to add the physical discs back to my subscription at some point, but I doubt it. There's usually a Redbox nearby where I can get the newer stuff so it's pretty much all instant streaming all the time for me.

Does Redbox take cash?

194 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:24:52pm

Matlock and Airwolf. Deal with it.

195 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:25:24pm

re: #191 sattv4u2

Borgnine in Marty (I've never watched it).

May I suggest you do

I just may...

196 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:26:07pm

re: #193 Gus

Does Redbox take cash?

Doesn't look like it. Oh well. Started reading "Rendezvous with Rama" by Arthur C. Clarke. Getting into it already. Time to start reading again.

197 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:26:08pm

re: #185 Gus

It boils down to heros and 'self esteem'

Our heros didn't include the Kardashins or Paris Hilton, ad infinitum.

I wanted to be an astronaut or whatever role John Wayne was playing- but I never forgot about my dad, who went out there every day to fight the battle.

Sometimes when I gave him a bit of lip, I'd immediately feel ashamed. He was my dad, imperfect, but always there for us. Yes, I wanted to be an astronaut or a John Wayne character, but as I grew older I realized I wanted to be my dad.

Still do.

It isn't like that anymore.

198 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:26:28pm

re: #194 goddamnedfrank

Matlock and Airwolf. Deal with it.

Badass heli.

199 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:27:36pm

re: #194 goddamnedfrank

Matlock and Airwolf. Deal with it.

The two aircrew on Airwolf were played by Jan-Michael Vincent and Ernest Borgnine. Are you comparing that show to Matlock or saying Andy Griffith had roles on both shows?

/honestly confused

200 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:28:31pm

re: #199 Dark_Falcon

The two aircrew on Airwolf were played by Jan-Michael Vincent and Ernest Borgnine. Are you comparing that show to Matlock or saying Andy Griffith had roles on both shows?

/honestly confused

Jan-Michael Vincent went nutso.

201 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:28:51pm

re: #194 goddamnedfrank

Matlock and Airwolf. Deal with it.

Matlock was OK and a great second wind for Griffith's career, but I'm an old-school Andy fan; TAGS was more endearing and memorable to me. OTOH, Airwolf slightly edges McHale's Navy on my Borgnine-o-meter; like I said, I'm a child of the 80s, so I'll give you this one.

202 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:29:06pm

re: #200 Gus

To put it mildly.

203 sagehen  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:29:11pm

re: #151 Daniel Ballard

Obdicut, just in case you subscribed to the thread...

[Link: www.lompocrecord.com...]

The false and misleading argument to repeal Prop. 13 or parts thereof is that so many people hold onto their homes and commercial buildings that government is not getting the money it needs to provide basic services. The reality is that government is getting plenty of money, but it has been spending at a rate that is not sustainable.

Read more: [Link: www.lompocrecord.com...]

The true and accurate argument to repeat Prop. 13 or parts thereof is that it requires a super-majority to do *anything* fiscal in the State Legislature. Not just to raise taxes -- even to pass an ordinary annual budget. Every year, the minority holds the entire state hostage unless they get some massively unpopular right wing agenda items written in.

204 blueraven  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:29:24pm

re: #182 sattv4u2

So you think he was better as Skipper Mchale than he was at Marty

REMEMBER,,, my comment was "great performance,,, GREAT"

Did I say that? Show me.

Look, this is pathetic and I will no longer play your stupid game.
Yes, he was great in Marty. But all people will not know him from that role. I do because I am a classic movie buff. Get over your self.

Also: see
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

205 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:31:48pm

re: #182 sattv4u2

So you think he was better as Skipper Mchale than he was at Marty

REMEMBER,,, my comment was "great performance,,, GREAT"

re: #204 blueraven

Did I say that? Show me.

Look, this is pathetic and I will no longer play your stupid game.
Yes, he was great in Marty. But all people will not know him from that role. I do because I am a classic movie buff. Get over your self.

Also: see
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Gentlemen, gentlemen...there is no fighting in the War Room!

/knock it off, OK?

206 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:32:08pm

re: #205 SunshineSuperman

re: #204 blueraven

Gentlemen, gentlemen...there is no fighting in the War Room!

/knock it off, OK?

SILENCE!

207 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:32:16pm

re: #204 blueraven

Did I say that? Show me.

Look, this is pathetic and I will no longer play your stupid game.
Yes, he was great in Marty. But all people will not know him from that role. I do because I am a classic movie buff. Get over your self.

Also: see
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

MY "stupid game"?
You're the one that jumped ugly with the "Satt has to argue every point for some strange reason" and the "Get over your self."(sic)

I stated an opinion
If it were anyone else but someone you THINK you disagree with on other issues, it wouldn't even have been noted

208 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:32:48pm

re: #198 Varek Raith

Badass heli.

Yeah, in theory. In reality, helicopters are fairly vulnerable to ground fire. I tend to regard Airwolf and the movie Blue Thunder as fun stuff, but not to be taken at all seriously. Still, it was a fun show.

209 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:32:55pm

Oy.

210 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:33:44pm

re: #209 Gus

Oy.

care to buy a VEY?

211 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:33:44pm

re: #206 Varek Raith

SILENCE!

BEHAVE YOURSELF!

212 Lidane  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:34:06pm

re: #193 Gus

Does Redbox take cash?

Nope. I just use my debit card. Good thing is, you can reserve a movie online at whatever kiosk is closest to you and you can return them to any kiosk as well. I like that.

213 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:34:10pm

re: #207 sattv4u2

Ahem....

(look up please)

214 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:34:48pm

re: #213 SunshineSuperman

Ahem...

(look up please)

Yeah ,, I was typing when you posted

Hunt and Peck here

215 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:35:27pm

Me, I'm just watching.

216 Kragar  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:35:56pm

Fun Fact: The TV show Airwolf lost access to the helicopter for the 4th season. They had a mockup for the ground scenes, but all the aerial shots were recycled from the first 3 seasons.

The actual Airwolf helicopter became a air ambulance in Germany, but crashed and was destroyed in a storm in 1992.

217 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:36:36pm

re: #212 Lidane

Nope. I just use my debit card. Good thing is, you can reserve a movie online at whatever kiosk is closest to you and you can return them to any kiosk as well. I like that.

Yup

Wifey just discovered that a month or so ago
Cool feature, but make sure you have the credit or debit card with you that your online acct is registered with

I went to pick up a movie last week and didn't have her debit card. Couldn't get the 'reserved" movie out of the kiosk

218 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:36:44pm

re: #216 Kragar

Killjoy
//

219 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:36:53pm

re: #218 researchok

Killjoy
//

was here?

220 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:37:55pm

re: #219 sattv4u2

Dyslexic?

221 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:38:51pm

re: #220 researchok

Dyslexic?

Killgore was here.

222 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:39:44pm

re: #221 Gus

LOLOL

And he'll be back.

223 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:40:10pm

re: #200 Gus

Jan-Michael Vincent went nutso.

True. Near the end of his own life, Ernest Borgnine was interview by Bill O'Reilly and J-M Vincent was discussed. Bornine did what he could to help a man he liked who was destroying himself, but Vincent did not want to be helped.

This song by the Goo-Goo Dolls is one they wrote for a young lady they knew who self-destructed due to drugs. I find it apt for this point:

224 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:40:32pm

re: #201 SunshineSuperman

Matlock was OK and a great second wind for Griffith's career, but I'm an old-school Andy fan; TAGS was more endearing and memorable to me.

Jeri Ryan, Jonathan Frakes and Nana Visitor all guest starred on Matlock, giving it the undisputed Star Trek actor crossover win.

225 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:40:42pm

re: #220 researchok

Dyslexic?

semitemos

226 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:41:19pm

re: #223 Dark_Falcon

True. Near the end of his own life, Ernest Borgnine was interview by Bill O'Reilly and J-M Vincent was discussed. Bornine did what he could to help a man he liked who was destroying himself, but Vincent did not want to be helped.

This song by the Goo-Goo Dolls is one they wrote for a young lady they knew who self-destructed due to drugs. I find it apt for this point:

[Embedded content]

I wasn't an Airwolf fan at the time but I liked Jan-Michael Vincent. When I saw him going down hill it was kind of sad to see.

227 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:42:45pm

Edit. Whew.

228 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:43:35pm

re: #224 goddamnedfrank

Jeri Ryan, Jonathan Frakes and Nana Visitor all guest starred on Matlock, giving it the undisputed Star Trek actor crossover win.

Quite Concur.

229 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:44:07pm

re: #226 Gus

When I saw him going down hill it was kind of sad to see.

Same with Sonny Bono!!!

///
(BAD SATT ,, BAD BAD BAD !!! )

230 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:45:06pm

re: #226 Gus

Remember Michael Moriarty of Law and Order?

Another...eccentric.

231 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:47:45pm

I hear Jan-Michael Vincent is doing much better.

232 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:48:30pm

re: #4 sattv4u2

They are here in Georgia. As a matter of fact they'll even come to an elderly persons home, bring them to the county office and drive them back if needed

That's a nice arrangement.

233 The Left  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:49:18pm

re: #230 researchok

Remember Michael Moriarty of Law and Order?

Another...eccentric.

I had no idea!

A website called Michael Moriarty Unofficial, Unauthorized, Unsanctioned Home Page[13] contains editorials by Moriarty, and these, in addition to posts on ESR, contain scathing denunciations of an eclectic array of targets, including Bill Clinton, abortion, embryonic stem cell research, anti-Catholicism, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, George W. Bush, both major U.S. political parties, Halliburton, Kenny G, the College of Cardinals, and Islam. Historically, he has been a supporter of the United States Republican Party.

234 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:50:25pm

re: #233 Millicent Islam

Yeah ,, me either


Wow , he's all over the place huh!!

235 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:50:33pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

I don't see them as a racist Republican conspiracy to steal elections, just crappy laws to appease the base.

Maybe something of a combo. On a national level, the effects would be small, but something like this could easily swing a rural county vote, if you make it stupid enough. I do agree that the primary goal is to appease the base--but what the base is upset about is nonexistent, and full of racist fantasizing, so encouraging them to feel that it's justified strikes me as a very bad idea.

236 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:50:49pm

re: #231 Varek Raith

I hear Jan-Michael Vincent is doing much better.

I thought he was dead.

237 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:51:02pm

re: #236 Dark_Falcon

I thought he was dead.

he got better!

238 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:51:10pm

re: #233 Millicent Islam

Guys like him are job security for therapists.

239 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:51:12pm

re: #233 Millicent Islam

I had no idea!

To be fair Kenny G is history's greatest monster.

240 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:51:39pm

EVERYONE ,, STOP

SFZ is only on POST # 5

Giver her a chance to catch up!!!!

241 The Left  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:51:52pm

re: #239 goddamnedfrank

To be fair Kenny G is history's greatest monster.

I laughed. :) Good to see you frank, as ever

242 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:51:56pm

My favorite TV series remains Rockford Files. It was simple, down to Earth, and cool.

243 Varek Raith  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:52:22pm

re: #236 Dark_Falcon

I thought he was dead.

Nope. :)
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

244 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:53:33pm

re: #242 Gus

That's my second fav.

My favorite is Monk (first two seasons).

Occupational thing.

245 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:53:59pm

re: #244 researchok

That's my second fav.

My favorite is Monk (first two seasons).

Occupational thing.

You're a professional neat freak?

246 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:54:04pm

re: #12 researchok

I believe the rationale is non citizens can legally go to school but cannot legally obtain firearms.

Thus, a school ID is no guarantee of citizenship.

A California State ID or driver's license is no guarantee of citizenship, or even of residency in the county you're presenting yourself to vote in. It's just proof that you happen to be the person (on the list) that you say you are. I don't own any documents which say I'm a U.S. citizen, except for my passport and, I guess by implication, my birth certificate.

If they want people to carry passports at all times, that ain't gonna fly. Americans are better than Brits about carrying photo ID, but not that much more.

247 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:54:17pm

re: #244 researchok

That's my second fav.

My favorite is Monk (first two seasons).

Occupational thing.

200 dollars a day plus expenses.

//

248 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:54:22pm

re: #233 Millicent Islam

I had no idea!

He actually lost his role on L&O because he developed some kind of anger fixation on Janet Reno (principally over Waco). He let loose on her publicly often enough and nastily enough that she threatened to pull all DoJ cooperation with the show unless Dick Wolf canned Moriarty. Needing that cooperation, Wolf sacked Moriarty and replaced him with Sam Waterson.

249 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:54:33pm

re: #245 sattv4u2

Behavioral Analyst

250 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:54:52pm

re: #249 researchok

Behavioral Analyst

Theres a difference !?!?!

//

251 Kragar  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:54:59pm

re: #242 Gus

My favorite TV series remains Rockford Files. It was simple, down to Earth, and cool.

I'm going to let you finish, but MST3k was the greatest program of all time.

OF.

ALL.

TIME.

252 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:55:07pm

re: #17 researchok

re: #14 Millicent Islam

No argument from me in that regard.

Nevertheless, the rule is reasonable.

I would also venture to say most citizen students do have other forms of valid ID.

I don't think I did, in college, until I got a state ID as part of a process of applying for a passport when I was twenty. I didn't drive. What other photo ID would I have had?

253 The Left  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:55:22pm

re: #248 Dark_Falcon

He actually lost his role on L&O because he developed some kind of anger fixation on Janet Reno (principally over Waco). He let loose on her publicly often enough and nastily enough that she threatened to pull all DoJ cooperation with the show unless Dick Wolf canned Moriarty. Needing that cooperation, Wolf sacked Moriarty and replaced him with Sam Waterson.

Interesting, I never knew all that.
I've got Jimmah into watching Law and Order so I can get my nyc fix.

254 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:55:54pm

re: #247 Gus

That must have been a typo.

I'm sure you meant 200/hr

//

That's reserved for the psycho psychoanalysts.

255 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:56:39pm

re: #254 researchok

That musy have been a typo.

I'm sure you meant 200/hr 50 minutes

//

That's reserved for the psycho psychoanalysts.

FTFY. Truth in advertising!

//

256 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:56:50pm

re: #252 SanFranciscoZionist

That was the Olden Days.
//

257 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:58:03pm

re: #243 Varek Raith

Nope. :)
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Thank you for the correction. Given that the man was in a couple of serious car accidents, I wonder if some of his decline was due to Traumatic Brain Injury.

258 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:58:13pm

re: #256 researchok

That was the Olden Days.
//

I remember my first driver's license in NJ. Some card stock paper thing with typing you stuck in your wallet.

259 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:58:49pm

Wait here while the typist completes your driver's license.

//

260 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:59:09pm

re: #253 Millicent Islam

Interesting, I never knew all that.
I've got Jimmah into watching Law and Order so I can get my nyc fix.

You can take the lady out of The City, but you cannot take The City out of the lady.

261 The Left  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:59:19pm

re: #259 Gus

Wait here while the typist completes your driver's license.

//

Did you have an onion tied to yer belt, granpaw? //

262 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 3:59:28pm

re: #258 Gus

I remember my first driver's license in NJ. Some card stock paper granite thing with typing chiseling on it you stuck in your wallet.

ftfy, you old goat!!!

//

263 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:01:02pm

re: #256 researchok

That was the Olden Days.
//

True. Fewer college kids drive now.

:)

264 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:01:03pm

re: #261 Millicent Islam

Did you have an onion tied to yer belt, granpaw? //

re: #262 sattv4u2

ftfy, you old goat!!!

//

You kids get off my lawn!

265 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:01:21pm

re: #258 Gus

I had to go in with a photocopy (non notarized) of my birth certificate and a library card) that was filled out by hand).

The nice lady only looked at the library card.

266 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:01:30pm

re: #264 Gus

re: #262 sattv4u2

You kids get off my lawn!

What about us old goats? we're hungry!!

267 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:01:54pm

re: #263 SanFranciscoZionist

True. Fewer college kids drive now.

:)

They don't drive. They just stare at their iPhone with GPS and miraculously get to where they're going.

//

268 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:02:45pm

re: #265 researchok

I had to go in with a photocopy (non notarized) of my birth certificate and a library card) that was filled out by hand).

The nice lady only looked at the library card.

One library card had the number embossed (raised) on a piece of metal.

269 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:03:25pm

re: #267 Gus

Hell, I remember pay phones and phone booths.

And rolls of coins.

And the bells that rang with every coin.

Doesn't seem that long ago.

270 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:04:13pm

re: #269 researchok

Hell, I remember pay phones and phone booths.

And rolls of coins.

And the bells that rang with every coin.

That's why they invented the dime. //

271 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:04:47pm

Now the pay phones are run by the same people that run the "check into cash" joints and bail bondsmen.

//

272 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:05:11pm

re: #268 Gus

You Americans were always ahead of the curve.

We had cardboard stock with the number filled in by the librarian.

(who definately did not do porn movies on the side).

273 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:05:43pm

re: #229 sattv4u2

When I saw him going down hill it was kind of sad to see.

Same with Sonny Bono!!!

///
(BAD SATT ,, BAD BAD BAD !!! )

*groan*

274 The Left  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:05:49pm

re: #271 Gus

Now the pay phones are run by the same people that run the "check into cash" joints and bail bondsmen.

//

I'm noticing a lot more pawn shops in the city centre in Glasgow. They're really spreading-- a pawn shop and a bookie on every corner.

275 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:06:20pm

re: #274 Millicent Islam

I'm noticing a lot more pawn shops in the city centre in Glasgow. They're really spreading-- a pawn shop and a bookie on every corner.

Ugh. That's not a good trend.

276 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:06:39pm

re: #269 researchok

Hell, I remember pay phones and phone booths.

And rolls of coins.

And the bells that rang with every coin.

son,,, we had a PARTY line in the house when I was a kid
And my uncle had the 1st TV set in our neighborhood (only about 4 years before I was born)

277 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:06:56pm

re: #271 Gus

And phone cards with 50 cent connect fees, 10 cent a minute to anywhere on the planet with a 20 minute minimum.

I know that place.

278 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:07:33pm

re: #274 Millicent Islam

Bookies...pawn shops.

There is a connection.

279 researchok  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:08:33pm

bbiab

280 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:08:52pm

re: #277 researchok

And phone cards with 50 cent connect fees, 10 cent a minute to anywhere on the planet with a 20 minute minimum.

I know that place.

Right in between the wig shop and OTB.

//

281 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:08:52pm

re: #278 researchok

Bookies...pawn shops.

There is a connection.

Crooks attract other crooks.

282 The Left  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:09:05pm

re: #278 researchok

Bookies...pawn shops.

There is a connection.

Oh definitely. It's also a sign of the times.
A couple of months ago Jimmah and I were in he pub and this very wasted looking woman tried to sell me her coat-- she was boozing it up and wanted another pint. Anyway it's the same situation that will keep the pawnshops humming.

283 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:09:56pm

re: #282 Millicent Islam

Oh definitely. It's also a sign of the times.
A couple of months ago Jimmah and I were in he pub and this very wasted looking woman tried to sell me her coat-- she was boozing it up and wanted another pint. Anyway it's the same situation that will keep the pawnshops humming.

Sounds like something out of one of Theodore Dalrymple's essays. Yikes.

284 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:11:52pm

re: #282 Millicent Islam

Oh definitely. It's also a sign of the times.
A couple of months ago Jimmah and I were in he pub and this very wasted looking woman tried to sell me her coat-- she was boozing it up and wanted another pint. Anyway it's the same situation that will keep the pawnshops humming.

Hundred dollar coat gets you a pint of beer. Nuts.

285 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:12:12pm

re: #282 Millicent Islam

Oh definitely. It's also a sign of the times.
A couple of months ago Jimmah and I were in he pub and this very wasted looking woman tried to sell me her coat-- she was boozing it up and wanted another pint. Anyway it's the same situation that will keep the pawnshops humming.

don't ask questions if he gives you familiar looking a coat for Christmas!!!

286 Lidane  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:13:05pm

Speaking of phone booths, I was curious one day and walked around the university campus and the rest of my neighborhood. Gas stations and convenience stores seem to be the only places with pay phones anymore. The university didn't have them at all. Why bother when everyone on campus has a phone in hand?

287 The Left  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:13:07pm

Why are there no bottom comments? Downding me! I'd like to visit the bottom ten for old times sake.

288 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:13:55pm

re: #287 Millicent Islam

Why are there no bottom comments? Downding me! I'd like to visit the bottom ten for old times sake.

I Renounce the lack of bottom comments! This is truly an echo chamber!!11ty

//

289 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:14:40pm

Buck must have taken the weekend off.

//

290 The Left  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:15:12pm

re: #287 Millicent Islam

Why are there no bottom comments? Downding me! I'd like to visit the bottom ten for old times sake.

Gentlemen dingers, I submit you are unclear on the concept. :)

291 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:16:14pm
292 Kragar  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:16:37pm

re: #287 Millicent Islam

Why are there no bottom comments? Downding me! I'd like to visit the bottom ten for old times sake.

Coffee tastes like curdled piss. Professional sports are homoerotic outlets for sexually insecure men. Pineapple is the only topping to ever put on a pizza.

293 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:16:39pm

It's part of the larger plot I tell ya'!

294 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:17:47pm

re: #292 Kragar

Coffee tastes like curdled piss. Professional sports are homoerotic outlets for sexually insecure men. Pineapple is the only topping to ever put on a pizza.

Oh I'm so tempted. Not to down ding but to add some of mine.

295 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:18:29pm

Wait! We got one!

296 The Left  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:19:09pm

re: #294 Gus

Oh I'm so tempted. Not to down ding but to add some of mine.

Do it, do it!

297 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:20:15pm

re: #296 Millicent Islam

Do it, do it!

Not feeling the mojo this minute.

298 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:21:09pm

re: #296 Millicent Islam

Do it, do it!

Pot leads to harder drugs heroin and bath salts and should never be legalized!!

299 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:22:18pm

We should do prizes for most down dings for one comment.

//

300 The Left  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:23:10pm

re: #299 Gus

We should do prizes for most down dings for one comment.

//

The prize should be that everyone updings your next comment. :)

301 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:23:21pm

We can give away phone cards, Snooki hats...

302 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:24:01pm

re: #300 Millicent Islam

The prize should be that everyone updings your next comment. :)

Box of pine car freshener.

303 Gus  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:24:12pm

Ammo!

304 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:24:43pm

re: #287 Millicent Islam

Why are there no bottom comments? Downding me! I'd like to visit the bottom ten for old times sake.

Ding whore!!!
///

305 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:26:18pm

re: #292 Kragar

Coffee tastes like curdled piss. Professional sports are homoerotic outlets for sexually insecure men. Pineapple is the only topping to ever put on a pizza.

I'm positive I don't want to know how you know what curdled piss tastes like

306 kirkspencer  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:31:18pm

re: #4 sattv4u2

They are here in Georgia. As a matter of fact they'll even come to an elderly persons home, bring them to the county office and drive them back if needed

False. Sorry, but I worked with people trying to get theirs (Catoosa and Walker counties).

First: the only "free" is for voter only IDs. If you're getting any other ID which can also be used for voting, you must pay the appropriate fee.

To get the card you must provide one proof of primary identity, one proof of social security number, and two proofs of residence address. Most of those items require money and a surprising number of people don't have a passport or certified birth certificate.

Finally, as to transport: only some counties provide that transport to the DDS or county registrar. When the ID law went into effect, DDS obtained some "rolling stations" that went to various locations in much the same way as the bookmobiles. Approximately 2/3 of those vehicles have been removed from inventory since the original purchase.

307 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:35:29pm

re: #306 kirkspencer

TRUE (at least here in Gwinnett county)

I know of three separate elder citizens that got rides to and from the Gwinnett gov't ctr in Lawrenceville

figured it was a state wide program

First: the only "free" is for voter only IDs. If you're getting any other ID which can also be used for voting, you must pay the appropriate fee.

Correct,, $25,, but as you stated, the voter only card is free

one proof of primary identity, one proof of social security number, and two proofs of residence address. Most of those items require money and a surprising number of people don't have a passport or certified birth certificate.

No,,, any utility bill comes to 'you" free and all utility bills are accepted

308 kirkspencer  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 4:51:54pm

re: #307 sattv4u2

TRUE (at least here in Gwinnett county)

I know of three separate elder citizens that got rides to and from the Gwinnett gov't ctr in Lawrenceville

figured it was a state wide program

First: the only "free" is for voter only IDs. If you're getting any other ID which can also be used for voting, you must pay the appropriate fee.

Correct,, $25,, but as you stated, the voter only card is free

one proof of primary identity, one proof of social security number, and two proofs of residence address. Most of those items require money and a surprising number of people don't have a passport or certified birth certificate.

No,,, any utility bill comes to 'you" free and all utility bills are accepted

Primary proofs of identity all cost money. Almost all the social security verifications are free.

But utility bills only work if they have your name on them. If you're the spouse you have to bring in proof of marriage to the person on the bill. If you're a family member staying with the person getting the bill - say, the parent who is being cared for or a voting age son or daughter - you can't use that.

You can still get it fixed for no money (free), but it takes a lot of effort (not free).

309 Amory Blaine  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 6:34:50pm

re: #301 Gus

We can give away phone cards, Snooki hats...

What's a Snooki hat? A condom?

310 labman57  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 9:00:53pm

The (publicly stated) rationale for all of these restrictive voter ID laws emanating from Republican-controlled state legislatures -- "voter fraud".

There is a world of difference between voting fraud (i.e., fraud perpetrated by the voter at the precincts on election day) and voter registration fraud. There is very little evidence for the former in the U.S. (other than that being perpetrated by O'Keefe's not-ready-for-prime-time players), yet conservatives are hell bent on enacting legislation to combat it, suggesting an ulterior motive is at play.

If Republicans sincerely want to tackle real election fraud, then they should focus their efforts on deceptive practices used to prevent some citizens from voting, as well as what happens to the votes after they are cast.

In other words, election fraud DOES exist ... except that the fraudulent party is not the voter -- it is the political party tactician who attempts to mislead a subset of the public with respect to date and/or location of the voting process, or the hired thug who attempts to intimidate selected citizens who show up to vote, it is the opposition party's tactical team which fronts faux candidates to run against an authentic party candidate in state primary elections, and it is the local election official who conveniently misplaces ballots or runs out of ballots at precincts that traditionally vote Democrat.

With respect to the voter ID legislation being pushed forth by Republican-controlled state legislatures, GOP legislators should simply cut to the chase and proclaim that the only Americans who have a legitimate right to vote are those who are registered members of the Republican Party.

311 Eventual Carrion  Sun, Jul 8, 2012 9:58:06pm

re: #284 Gus

Hundred dollar coat gets you a pint of beer. Nuts.

You know the difference between beer nuts and deer nuts?

Beer nuts are $1.25 and deer nuts are under a buck.


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