The Obama campaign’s latest advertisement is just brutal, with a soundtrack of Mitt Romney singing “America the Beautiful” (badly).
Youtube Video2 |
Mattand Sat, Jul 14, 2012 10:56:01am |
Ouch. As someone said earlier, that's gonna a leave a mark.
| 4 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Jul 14, 2012 10:56:27am |
Nice. I can't wait for them to make one with Mitt saying the buck doesn't stop with him.
| 6 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Jul 14, 2012 10:56:43am |
Mitt Romney chose to leave Bain suddenly and remain nominally in charge "while the paperwork was being sorted out". He also chose to accept a $100K salary for "doing nothing" in that time.
Is "personal responsiblity" not a cardinal conservative virtue?
| 7 |
nines09 Sat, Jul 14, 2012 10:57:29am |
Mitt will soon demand an apology and all the usual suspects will be howling at "Obamas Dirty Campaign." I agree with SpaceJesus. Give them a raise.
| 8 |
steve_davis Sat, Jul 14, 2012 10:58:23am |
I've now watched this advertisement on 3 different sites. It just keeps getting better and better....
| 9 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Jul 14, 2012 10:58:25am |
Wife and I paid for .003 seconds of that. Money well spent.
| 10 |
Sionainn Sat, Jul 14, 2012 10:58:27am |
re: #6 Expand Your Ground
Mitt Romney chose to leave Bain suddenly and remain nominally in charge "whie the paperwork ws being sorted out". He also chose to accept a $100K salary for "doing nothing" in that time.
Is personal respnsiblity not a cardinal conservative virtue?
I've discovered that "personal responsibility" only belongs to liberals...at least according to wingnuts who throw around that "personal responsibility" crap without being accountable themselves.
| 11 |
Sionainn Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:00:50am |
re: #5 Sionainn
I love these ads.
While I'm sure that wingnuts will be screaming about how negative these ads are, I find them refreshing because they don't have the scary, "the world is ending" music.
| 12 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:02:26am |
re: #11 Sionainn
While I'm sure that wingnuts will be screaming about how negative these ads are, I find them refreshing because they don't have the scary, "the world is ending" music.
no, but that singing could well bring about the end of the world...
| 13 |
diamonda2u Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:07:12am |
If this keeps up, the Republican National Convention is going to be a doooooooozy! RMoney might be challenged from all sides.... time for the popcorn and fireworks!
| 14 |
simoom Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:08:00am |
The Boston Globe has a followup Bain story today:
Evidence mounts of Mitt Romney's continuing ties to Bain after 1999
It was not until 2002 that Romney finalized a severance agreement with Bain, a 10-year deal with undisclosed terms that was retroactive to 1999.
…
Financial disclosure forms Romney filed in Massachusetts indicate he earned at least $100,000 as a Bain “executive” in 2001 and 2002, separate from investment earnings.
In addition, Bloomberg news service reported Friday, Romney is named as one of two managing members of Bain Capital Investors LLC in annual reports filed in Massachusetts as late as 2002, “adding a new corporate entity to a growing number of Bain-related investments and funds that list the Republican presidential candidate as controlling the company three years after he said he left it.”
On the day after Romney took over the Winter Olympics, the Boston Herald reported that “Romney said he will stay on as a part-timer with Bain, providing input on investment and key personnel decisions.”
On July 19, 1999, a news release about the resignation of two Bain Capital managing directors describes Romney as CEO and “currently on a part-time leave of absence to head the Salt Lake City Olympic Committee.”
…
A Harvard Business School bulletin from October 1999 reported that “Romney is currently on leave as CEO of Bain Capital” and not that he had “retired” from Bain. In a November 2000 interview with the Globe, Romney’s wife, Ann, said he had been forced to lessen, but not end entirely, his involvement with Bain Capital.
…
Romney also testified that “there were a number of social trips and business trips that brought [him] back to Massachusetts, board meetings” while he was running the Olympics. He added that he remained on the boards of several companies, including the Lifelike Co., in which Bain Capital held a stake until 2001.
| 15 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:11:30am |
The people who are going to be the most outraged are not even the people who lost jobs to outsourcing. We have all come to see that as a part of busioness in America. But the fundamentalists are going to be very upset at Bain's role in an aborted fetus-desposal company.
Let the chivarees begin!
| 16 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:15:36am |
Yunno, the "I had to leave suddenly and sort the paperwork out later" defense might even wash with me if he had really left the company due to some family-related crisis or to help sort out some other unexpected, major event where his presence was demanded.
But this was a personal choice. We like to have the freedom to make such choices, but we must be aware that we are expected to own up for our choices.
| 17 |
Mattand Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:15:53am |
re: #1 SpaceJesus
re: #7 nines09
Mitt will soon demand an apology and all the usual suspects will be howling at "Obamas Dirty Campaign." I agree with SpaceJesus. Give them a raise.
I honestly don't remember seeing a Democrat hit this hard before. Did a medical supply house ship a bunch of spines to the DNC?
| 18 |
McSpiff Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:16:42am |
| 19 |
Gus Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:17:29am |
OT - Mondoweiss is trending. Yes. That Mondoweiss.
| 21 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:18:25am |
re: #17 Mattand
re: #7 nines09
I honestly don't remember seeing a Democrat hit this hard before. Did a medical supply house ship a bunch of spines to the DNC?
Obama has started to come out of his corner. I was hoping he would do so, and even said so to people who found him too passive and accomodating. But he has managed to pitch it just right to get people annoyed at Mitt and the GOP without pressing the "outrage" button.
| 22 |
dragonath Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:19:09am |
CNN reporter tells Bill Nye that he doesn't understand climate change
Watch in awe as CNN's Carol Costello tells Bill Nye, a respected scientist, engineer, and science educator, that he's a "kooky guy who doesn't know what he's talking about" when he asserts the scientific consensus on anthropogenic climate change.
*puts glasses on*
NO MORE MR NICE NYE
| 23 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:19:28am |
Disappointing that in the youtube/web version of the ad they did not include links to the source material for the ad's claims. I guess we just have to find our own citations based on date and news organization, still, for the doubters, it would have been nice if they were already there...
Good ad nonetheless, but it could have been a bit more web friendly. ;)
/(yes I'm a picky bastard)
| 24 |
aagcobb Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:19:40am |
re: #16 Expand Your Ground
Yunno, the "I had to leave suddenly and sort the paperwork out later" defense might even wash with me if he had really left the company due to some family-related crisis or to help sort out some other unexpected, major event where his presence was demanded.
But this was a personal choice. We like to have the freedom to make such choices, but we must be aware that we are expected to own up for our choices.
However, the reality is that even if you believe he was completely divorced from decision making at Bain after 1999, Romney would still own Bain's investment in outsourcing prior to 1999.
| 26 |
nines09 Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:21:38am |
re: #17 Mattand
Or as previously thought; Gee. The Republicans are all pricks and the Democrats have no balls. I love it. Mr Empty Suit will need a massive makeover. Shake that etch there sketchy.
| 27 |
Political Atheist Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:22:21am |
Three things you must not do if you want to get elected, laid or even dated twice-
Sing badly, dance badly, go out in ugly drag.
| 28 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:23:12am |
re: #19 Gus
OT - Mondoweiss is trending. Yes. That Mondoweiss.
At ‘Daily Kos,’ a liberal Zionist calls for BDSThe tip jar for the diary is now at (495+ / 0-)
| 29 |
Mich-again Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:24:32am |
re: #22 Be Zorch, Daddio
CNN reporter tells Bill Nye that he doesn't understand climate change
*puts glasses on*
NO MORE MR NICE NYE
CNN reporter Bill DeNye, the anti-science guy..
| 30 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:25:16am |
re: #23 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You
Disappointing that in the youtube/web version of the ad they did not include links to the source material for the ad's claims. I guess we just have to find our own citations based on date and news organization, still, for the doubters, it would have been nice if they were already there...
Good ad nonetheless, but it could have been a bit more web friendly. ;)
/(yes I'm a picky bastard)
It all the same recycled stuff used in previous ads. Some of it semi-true, some of it not so much. You can venture to the dreaded fact checking sites for links to the source material
| 31 |
Mich-again Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:25:38am |
When I heard Mitt sing it reminded me of my advice for his campaign from months ago. Mitt on Mute.
| 32 |
Mattand Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:25:52am |
re: #23 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You
Disappointing that in the youtube/web version of the ad they did not include links to the source material for the ad's claims. I guess we just have to find our own citations based on date and news organization, still, for the doubters, it would have been nice if they were already there...
Good ad nonetheless, but it could have been a bit more web friendly. ;)
/(yes I'm a picky bastard)
Yeah, I noticed that, too. It's a good ad, but the one sentence pull quotes with no citations is a bit of a bullshit flag.
| 33 |
Mich-again Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:26:54am |
re: #14 simoom
It was not until 2002 that Romney finalized a severance agreement with Bain, a 10-year deal with undisclosed terms that was retroactive to 1999.
Ha. When Mitt says he left in 1999, he really means he left in 2002 retroactively to 1999.
| 34 |
Gus Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:27:22am |
re: #28 Killgore Trout
At ‘Daily Kos,’ a liberal Zionist calls for BDSThe tip jar for the diary is now at (495+ / 0-)
This isn't about Daily Kos. In fact, Mondoweiss is banned from Daily Kos. This is in relation to an article recently published at the Atlantic, A Reminder That Anti-Semitism Has no Place in Debates Over Israel.
| 35 |
Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:27:43am |
re: #22 Be Zorch, Daddio
CNN reporter tells Bill Nye that he doesn't understand climate change
*puts glasses on*
NO MORE MR NICE NYE
Not her characterization. She says ". . . if you Google your name, Bill Nye, you're the kooky guy . . .". She's asking him to respond to what the wingnuts and deniers have said about him on the web.
| 36 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:27:59am |
re: #34 Gus
This isn't about Daily Kos. In fact, Mondoweiss is banned from Daily Kos. This is in relation to an article recently published at the Atlantic, A Reminder That Anti-Semitism Has no Place in Debates Over Israel.
Kudos to the Atlantic, shame on DKos.
| 37 |
Sionainn Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:32:02am |
re: #30 Killgore Trout
It all the same recycled stuff used in previous ads. Some of it semi-true, some of it not so much. You can venture to the dreaded fact checking sites for links to the source material
Which ones are incorrect?
| 38 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:33:22am |
re: #30 Killgore Trout
It all the same recycled stuff used in previous ads. Some of it semi-true, some of it not so much. You can venture to the dreaded fact checking sites for links to the source material
You keep saying that, but you never actually identify the points that you think are false. Where are the lies, in your opinion?
| 39 |
Randall Gross Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:34:45am |
re: #19 Gus
OT - Mondoweiss is trending. Yes. That Mondoweiss.
Looks like it's emanating from the usual suspects. Antiwar.com is Jayson Raimondo, correct?
| 40 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:35:09am |
They have turned Bain into a real albatross around Mitt's neck. It was supposed to be his flagship argument: the successful businessman who will use his leadership skills to restore America.
Now that he has to disown and distance himself from it to save his own neck, what else can he offer?
| 41 |
Randall Gross Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:36:41am |
re: #30 Killgore Trout
Can you explain how someone can legally get 100 million dollars into a 401K in a short time the way it appears that Mitt did? That one still has me scratching my head.
| 42 |
Gus Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:37:29am |
re: #39 Randall Gross
Looks like it's emanating from the usual suspects. Antiwar.com is Jayson Raimondo, correct?
Yeah, hard to pinpoint though. I thought it was because of the Atlantic piece.
| 43 |
Randall Gross Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:38:02am |
re: #42 Gus
Yeah, I haven't looked into it much
| 44 |
gwangung Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:39:28am |
re: #38 Charles Johnson
You keep saying that, but you never actually identify the points that you think are false. Where are the lies, in your opinion?
Yes, please.
And don't recycle the crap that people who have read far more SEC documents than Mr. Trout have say doesn't hold up.
| 45 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:39:32am |
re: #38 Charles Johnson
You keep saying that, but you never actually identify the points that you think are false. Where are the lies, in your opinion?
All the claims in this ad have been used previously. You've read the fact checking articles. I think the fact checkers did an accurate and reasonable job, you don't. We aren't going to agree.
| 46 |
Targetpractice Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:39:39am |
re: #40 Expand Your Ground
They have turned Bain into a real albatross around Mitt's neck. It was supposed to be his flagship argument: the successful businessman who will use his leadership skills to restore America.
Now that he has to disown and distance himself from it to save his own neck, what else can he offer?
Not much, hence the lengths he's gone to split hairs over the meaning of words in the SEC filings and subsequent press releases.
| 47 |
Targetpractice Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:40:41am |
re: #45 Killgore Trout
All the claims in this ad have been used previously. You've read the fact checking articles. I think the fact checkers did an accurate and reasonable job, you don't. We aren't going to agree.
The fact-checkers based their initial "debunking" on asserting that Bain's word was enough for their sensibilities, and now refuse to budge in light of further revelations. The "why" behind that refusal is up for debate.
| 48 |
gwangung Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:41:44am |
re: #45 Killgore Trout
All the claims in this ad have been used previously. You've read the fact checking articles. I think the fact checkers did an accurate and reasonable job, you don't. We aren't going to agree.
Because you are an inexperienced and ignorant reader of SEC documents. This is not a he-said, she-said discussion.
As a more experienced person, I think the fact checkers did a TERRIBLE job and actually lied in several parts.
Yes, an intelligent design advocate and a biologist will not agree.
| 49 |
Randall Gross Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:43:20am |
The "fact checkers" believed the convenient lies. With the new documents, they better recheck if they want to be considered "factual fact checkers".
| 50 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:43:31am |
| 51 |
Gus Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:44:03am |
NEW: Evidence mounts of #Romney's continuing ties to #Bain after 1999 - Politics - The Boston Globe bostonglobe.com/metro/2012/07/... #p2 #tlot #Obama— Gus (@Gus_802) July 14, 2012
| 52 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:45:20am |
re: #49 Randall Gross
The "fact checkers" believed the convenient lies. With the new documents, they better recheck if they want to be considered "factual fact checkers".
The "New" SEC documents don't show anything different from the ones previously discussed. His name was on the filings, we already knew that.
| 53 |
Randall Gross Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:46:57am |
re: #50 Killgore Trout
Until they show us docs Pre-1999 that list Mitt as Charles mentioned yesterday, this is laughable. You shouldn't lie to the SEC, so is he comMitting Fraud, or just lying to the American public? It's one or the other.
| 54 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:47:33am |
re: #45 Killgore Trout
All the claims in this ad have been used previously. You've read the fact checking articles. I think the fact checkers did an accurate and reasonable job, you don't. We aren't going to agree.
See, that's why I keep asking you to identify the claims you think are false -- because you never do. You just say, "go read the fact checkers."
So are you saying the claims that Bain invested in companies that outsourced American jobs are false? Because they're not false. This is well-documented.
Or are you saying that the claims that Romney has tens of millions of dollars stashed away in overseas investments are false? Because they're not false, either -- he does.
So where are the false claims?
| 55 |
Randall Gross Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:49:37am |
I did not see anything about the IRA account
[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]
| 56 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:51:30am |
re: #41 Randall Gross
Can you explain how someone can legally get 100 million dollars into a 401K in a short time the way it appears that Mitt did? That one still has me scratching my head.
The only way I know to do this is to radically undervalue the investments at the time they're added to the 401K.
| 57 |
Randall Gross Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:52:30am |
re: #56 Charles Johnson
That's an angle I hadn't considered. Mitt would know how to do that.
| 58 |
Gus Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:52:31am |
re: #54 Charles Johnson
See, that's why I keep asking you to identify the claims you think are false -- because you never do. You just say, "go read the fact checkers."
So are you saying the claims that Bain invested in companies that outsourced American jobs are false? Because they're not false. This is well-documented.
Or are you saying that the claims that Romney has tens of millions of dollars stashed away in overseas investments are false? Because they're not false, either -- he does.
So where are the false claims?
Not just Bain but the Swiss bank accounts and the "tax heavens like Bermuda and the Grand Cayman Islands" which are all true.
| 59 |
Randall Gross Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:53:18am |
Some interesting analysis of when the shoe was on the other foot and wingnuts were crowing from my friend Digby:
[Link: digbysblog.blogspot.co.uk...]
| 60 |
gwangung Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:53:39am |
re: #52 Killgore Trout
The "New" SEC documents don't show anything different from the ones previously discussed. His name was on the filings, we already knew that.
Then FULL STOP. Claims are proven. End of story.
| 61 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:54:07am |
re: #40 Expand Your Ground
They have turned Bain into a real albatross around Mitt's neck. It was supposed to be his flagship argument: the successful businessman who will use his leadership skills to restore America.
Now that he has to disown and distance himself from it to save his own neck, what else can he offer?
"I'm rich too, maybe even richer than you, so you know that I will fight tooth and nail to prevent any tax increases on rich people. Fuck the country, I want to keep every cent of the money I stole earned thru day after grueling day of business networking on golf courses, in casinos, and 5 star hotel suites around the world. So what if your pool boy pays a higher percentage of his income to the IRS than you do? You deserve to pay less because your a money hoarder job creator!" (after all, who do they think pays for your accountant, ehh?)
I'm Mitt Romney and I approved this message...
///
| 62 |
CriticalDragon1177 Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:54:09am |
Charles Johnson,
I wonder how Romney will try to defend himself against this ad.
| 64 |
Gus Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:55:11am |
BEIJING: Chinese Workers Hail Romney's Record as Job Creator: bit.ly/N8I8io— Andy Borowitz (@BorowitzReport) July 14, 2012
| 65 |
Targetpractice Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:57:46am |
re: #62 CriticalDragon1177
Charles Johnson,
I wonder how Romney will try to defend himself against this ad.
Keep whining that it's "dirty politics" and demand an apology.
| 66 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:58:14am |
I disagree with what the WSJ said about this ad:
The Obama campaign is putting out a new TV ad Saturday, stepping up its attack on Republican rival Mitt Romney’s personal finances and business practices, while mocking his singing voice.
Quoting is not mocking (unless they doctored it).
And you know the comparison is to Obama singing "Let's Stay Together".
Romney is dead. At least to women...
| 67 |
Randall Gross Sat, Jul 14, 2012 11:59:58am |
This is a big problem for Mitt, it's one that will disaffect a large portion of his base. I suspect that portion will still vote for him, just in fewer numbers. The enthusiasm just isn't going to be there.
| 68 |
Kid A Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:01:35pm |
re: #67 Randall Gross
This is a big problem for Mitt, it's one that will disaffect a large portion of his base. I suspect that portion will still vote for him, just in fewer numbers. The enthusiasm just isn't going to be there.
True, but there's a black man born in Kenya in the Oval Office that must be stopped at all costs. That'll take care of the enthusiasm gap.
///
| 69 |
blueraven Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:01:58pm |
re: #66 wrenchwench
I disagree with what the WSJ said about this ad:
Quoting is not mocking (unless they doctored it).
And you know the comparison is to Obama singing "Let's Stay Together".
[Embedded content]
Romney is dead. At least to women...
Didn't Romney or one of his "independent" super pacs use a bit of this clip in a negative Obama ad?
| 70 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:02:29pm |
Counter-talking points:
"Outsourcing is a part of modern buiness in America, we all benefit from it in the form of cheaper consumer products."
"A businessman is there to make a profit for his shareholders. Jobs are a by-product."
"Businessmen are there to make money, that is why they are in business."
All reasonable arguments. For a businessman. Not for someone who is supposed to represent us all, not just his colleagues and shareholders.
Greed is not evil in itself, but like any other force of nature, it needs to be contained in order to benefit everyone. Flowing water can irrigate a field or power a turbine. it can also scour the countryside and level cities.
Greed can help build empires and employ thousands of people. It can also nearly wipe out an economy, as it would have done in America in 2008 without government intervention. Good thing the dikes held...
| 71 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:03:39pm |
re: #69 blueraven
Didn't Romney or one of his "independent" super pacs use a bit of this clip in a negative Obama ad?
Didn't see that.
Wouldn't be prudent....
| 72 |
Targetpractice Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:04:31pm |
re: #70 Expand Your Ground
Counter-talking points
"Outsourcing is a part of modern buiness in America, we all benefit from it in the form of cheaper consumer products."
"A businessman is there to make a profit for his shareholders. Jobs are a by-product."
"Businessmen are there to make money, that is why they are in business."
All reasonable arguments. For a businessman. Not for someone who is supposed to represent us all, not just his colleagues and shareholders.
Greed is not evil in itself, but like any other force of nature, it needs to be contained in order to benefit everyone. Flowing water can irrigate a field or power a turbine. it can also scour the countryside and level cities.
Greed can help build empires and employ thousands of people. It can also nearly wipe out an economy, as it would have done in America in 2008 without government intervention. Good thing the dikes held...
That's a forbidden word. The PC term is "women in comfortable shoes."
//
| 73 |
SteveMcG Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:06:06pm |
re: #56 Charles Johnson
The only way I know to do this is to radically undervalue the investments at the time they're added to the 401K.
I remember a friend of mine who challenged Frank Purdue in court over something related. Purdue had invested in Mel Fisher's Atocha expedition. He ultimately donated coins to charity and tried to overvalue them for the deduction, based on the amount of his investment in the venture, as opposed to the appraised value of the coins. Opposite direction, but still, I guess manipulating the value of an investment still applies.
I wonder if the unreleased tax returns would have shed any light on the IRA investment?
| 74 |
kirkspencer Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:07:42pm |
KT, it is documented fact that through 2002 documents filed with the US government said Romney was CEO, President, Directing Manager, and sole shareholder of Bain. There were other Directing Managers, two of whom held the offices of Secretary and Treasurer.
It is documented fact that Romney, by his own testimony, returned to Massachusetts to sit on boards and meetings of companies. He did not hold those seats by virtue of holding the stock. He held those seats by virtue of BAIN holding stock in those companies. In other words, he was acting as Bain's representative.
Romney was CEO, President, sole shareholder, directing manager, and representative for the company on boards of companies in which Bain invested. Those are indisputable, documented facts.
Now, the claim is that despite all this Romney wasn't really in charge and in fact Bain was for all intents and purposes a blind trust that used his name with his permission. It's possible. It doesn't speak well for a man claiming personal responsibility and hands-on business experience, but it's possible. It just doesn't seem reasonable, however. Most people think that if you own a company and are the senior officer (both of the board and of the execution) you should be doing something, especially when you're getting a paycheck.
So what I'm wondering is what's buried in the 1999-2002 operations. Was it Stericycle? maybe, but I'm thinking that can be smoked - it's a medical waste disposal company, and Romney didn't have control over what waste was handled. Was it Global-Tech Appliances, a Chinese company that officially relied on being an outsource operator? maybe, but he acquired it in 1998 and so is stuck with that blot anyway.
Romney and company are fighting hard to take 1999-2002 off Romney's resume, forcing stretches that make discussing the definition of 'is' seem reasonable. I keep wondering why, and wondering if this constant cover-up (which is what it smells like to me) isn't going to turn even uglier down the road.
| 75 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:10:08pm |
Damn. Nobody at the Prudential Building in Chicago is playing with Willard's ass anymore. Chicago style politics indeed.
| 76 |
kirkspencer Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:11:17pm |
re: #70 Expand Your Ground
Counter-talking points:
"Outsourcing is a part of modern buiness in America, we all benefit from it in the form of cheaper consumer products."
"A businessman is there to make a profit for his shareholders. Jobs are a by-product."
"Businessmen are there to make money, that is why they are in business."
All reasonable arguments. For a businessman. Not for someone who is supposed to represent us all, not just his colleagues and shareholders.
Greed is not evil in itself, but like any other force of nature, it needs to be contained in order to benefit everyone. Flowing water can irrigate a field or power a turbine. it can also scour the countryside and level cities.
Greed can help build empires and employ thousands of people. It can also nearly wipe out an economy, as it would have done in America in 2008 without government intervention. Good thing the dikes held...
Walk into most middle class neighborhoods and praise sending jobs overseas. Doesn't matter if it's offshoring or outsourcing, just "Yeah, we're going to send jobs overseas." Count smiles and frowns. You might want to make sure you've got a good getaway vehicle and maybe a bodyguard for some regions.
The only people who seem to like that are senior executives who aren't seeing THEIR jobs moved. It's why "it's not outsourcing, it's offshoring" is a stupid argument to make.
| 77 |
blueraven Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:11:54pm |
re: #70 Expand Your Ground
Counter-talking points
"Outsourcing is a part of modern buiness in America, we all benefit from it in the form of cheaper consumer products."
"A businessman is there to make a profit for his shareholders. Jobs are a by-product."
"Businessmen are there to make money, that is why they are in business."
All reasonable arguments. For a businessman. Not for someone who is supposed to represent us all, not just his colleagues and shareholders.
Greed is not evil in itself, but like any other force of nature, it needs to be contained in order to benefit everyone. Flowing water can irrigate a field or power a turbine. it can also scour the countryside and level cities.
Greed can help build empires and employ thousands of people. It can also nearly wipe out an economy, as it would have done in America in 2008 without government intervention. Good thing the dikes held...
The problem is that big corporations use to have a sense of social/economic justice in this country, an interest in the community.
Now with all the multi nationals and outsourcing that is no longer true on a grand scale.
The result has been that the government has had to fill in the gap. So the very thing the conservative base screams about...big government vs free enterprise...the welfare state, food stamps, unemployment etc.. their policies, in part, has led to the expansion of those programs.
| 78 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:13:52pm |
re: #77 blueraven
The problem is that big corporation use to have a sense of social/economic justice in this country, an interest in the community.
Now with all the multi nationals and outsourcing that is no longer true on a grand scale.
The result has been that the government has had to fill in the gap. So the very thing the conservative base screams about...big government vs free enterprise...the welfare state, food stamps, unemployment etc.. their policies, in part, led to the expansion of those programs.
There also used to be huge barriers to the movement of capital and labor overseas. It meant that the "trickle-down" theory had some degree of validity.
But now that capital is free to follow the path of highest returns, it will foll them wherever they are to be found. And things like social services, labor and environmnental safety cut into profit margins and serve to channel capital overseas to where those things are rudementary if they exist at all.
| 79 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:14:05pm |
re: #74 kirkspencer
Romney and company are fighting hard to take 1999-2002 off Romney's resume, forcing stretches that make discussing the definition of 'is' seem reasonable. I keep wondering why, and wondering if this constant cover-up (which is what it smells like to me) isn't going to turn even uglier down the road.
I'm pretty sure there's going to be more coming out.
| 80 |
Sionainn Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:16:14pm |
re: #69 blueraven
Didn't Romney or one of his "independent" super pacs use a bit of this clip in a negative Obama ad?
| 81 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:18:50pm |
re: #74 kirkspencer
Most of that is reasonable and not under dispute.
Romney and company are fighting hard to take 1999-2002 off Romney's resume, forcing stretches that make discussing the definition of 'is' seem reasonable. I keep wondering why, and wondering if this constant cover-up (which is what it smells like to me) isn't going to turn even uglier down the road.
I think he's fighting back because the ads and accusations overreached. Past '99 there's no evidence Mitt was calling the shots at Bain. It would be fair and accurate to say something like "while Mitt was CEO of Bain, the company bought Stericyle". It would be technically true and hard for him to weasle out of. However if you say "Mitt invested in Stericycle" he gets an easy out. There's no evidence he made the decision. A lot of this can be improved with the wording. Bain is fair game but I do think the allegations of Mitt committing a felony by lying to the FCC is over the top. I think people are losing touch when they start fantasizing about Mitt being imprisoned for fraud or tax evasion before the election. This story is getting into creepy territory.
| 82 |
McSpiff Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:19:30pm |
I'm not a legal scholar on these sorts of complex financial and business arrangements. But here's my straight forward test: Am I in charge of the company I work for? No, my manager can fire me. Is my manager in charge? No, his director can fire him. Etc, etc up to the board of directors which are responsible to our share holders.
If between 1999-2001 no one could fire Romney from Bain, he was in charge. Doesn't matter if he never showed up once. Legally and morally, he was the man in charge. Everything else is just semantics.
| 83 |
Targetpractice Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:22:10pm |
re: #81 Killgore Trout
And that's what I said when this first started getting fired up, that you can argue all you like if Mitt was making the decisions, but what is not in dispute is that he was CEO at the time these things were going on. If he didn't approve of them, then he needs to demonstrate that and give reasons why. Just saying "I wasn't around" is not an excuse.
| 85 |
kirkspencer Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:22:30pm |
re: #81 Killgore Trout
Most of that is reasonable and not under dispute.
I think he's fighting back because the ads and accusations overreached. Past '99 there's no evidence Mitt was calling the shots at Bain. It would be fair and accurate to say something like "while Mitt was CEO of Bain, the company bought Stericyle". It would be technically true and hard for him to weasle out of. However if you say "Mitt invested in Stericycle" he gets an easy out. There's no evidence he made the decision. A lot of this can be improved with the wording. Bain is fair game but I do think the allegations of Mitt committing a felony by lying to the FCC is over the top. I think people are losing touch when they start fantasizing about Mitt being imprisoned for fraud or tax evasion before the election. This story is getting into creepy territory.
So you're saying Romney was stupid and lazy. Oh, and don't forget greedy. He kept his name in the key spots (as sole shareholder he held the votes), he collected a salary, but he just acted like any other absentee landlord.
| 86 |
Randall Gross Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:22:30pm |
re: #81 Killgore Trout
Saying he either lied to the SEC or the US public isn't creepy, it's true.
| 87 |
uncah91 Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:24:09pm |
re: #81 Killgore Trout
Most of that is reasonable and not under dispute.
I think he's fighting back because the ads and accusations overreached. Past '99 there's no evidence Mitt was calling the shots at Bain. It would be fair and accurate to say something like "while Mitt was CEO of Bain, the company bought Stericyle". It would be technically true and hard for him to weasle out of. However if you say "Mitt invested in Stericycle" he gets an easy out. There's no evidence he made the decision. A lot of this can be improved with the wording. Bain is fair game but I do think the allegations of Mitt committing a felony by lying to the FCC is over the top. I think people are losing touch when they start fantasizing about Mitt being imprisoned for fraud or tax evasion before the election. This story is getting into creepy territory.
I think this is more of a case of Romney laying spin on top of spin.
He says now he had nothing to do with Bain after 1999. That is clearly false. If he simply said that his role was greatly reduced, and that he did not make the decisions on what companies to invest in, he'd be fine. But he has gone all the way to "no involvement".
I'm not sure he even realizes he has made a falsehood out of truth.
| 88 |
Targetpractice Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:25:49pm |
re: #87 uncah91
I think this is more of a case of Romney laying spin on top of spin.
He says now he had nothing to do with Bain after 1999. That is clearly false. If he simply said that his role was greatly reduced, and that he did not make the decisions on what companies to invest in, he'd be fine. But he has gone all the way to "no involvement".
I'm not sure he even realizes he has made a falsehood out of truth.
Except if he said that, he'd be admitting he still had power, still had a say, in how Bain was operating. And that would mean he could no longer defend himself from what Bain was doing in those years by declaring that he'd left to handle the Olympics.
| 89 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:25:56pm |
re: #81 Killgore Trout
Past '99 there's no evidence Mitt was calling the shots at Bain.
That's not true. There's quite a bit of evidence that Romney was much more involved than he wants to admit. You're just ignoring it ... again.
1) His name on SEC filings as CEO and Managing Director.
2) His testimony that he made trips to Massachusetts to attend board meetings after February 1999.
3) A Bain press release in which he's quoted very clearly making a statement as an acting CEO, about the departure of two Bain officials.
That's just some of the stuff you insist on ignoring. There's more. And yes, this is evidence that Mitt Romney continued to have an active role in Bain Capital long after he claimed he "retired." You may not like the evidence, for whatever reason, but it is evidence, and it's all based on facts.
| 90 |
gwangung Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:28:27pm |
re: #87 uncah91
I think this is more of a case of Romney laying spin on top of spin.
He says now he had nothing to do with Bain after 1999. That is clearly false. If he simply said that his role was greatly reduced, and that he did not make the decisions on what companies to invest in, he'd be fine. But he has gone all the way to "no involvement".
I'm not sure he even realizes he has made a falsehood out of truth.
Circling back to the fact-checkers, even if Romney had a greatly reduced role, giving three Pinnochios to the charge that he oversaw outsourcing, etc. is itself a distortion, because he still had to have some involvement, even if it's to sign off--that's because he's legally responsible for decision, even serving in a greatly reduced capacity. (One Pinnochio, I might buy. Three? Sorry, no----I'm seeing YOUR nose now).
| 91 |
Cinnabar Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:29:08pm |
So just for the sake of the argument, let's say we all believe that Romney was absentee "owner and sole stockholder" in 1999-2002. In other words, he left others to plan and carry out his dirty work, while he took the profits.
Romney supporters, don't you feel better now?
| 93 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:29:13pm |
re: #81 Killgore Trout
Most of that is reasonable and not under dispute.
I think he's fighting back because the ads and accusations overreached.
In a purely tactical sense, they have gone a bit too far.
We just need to get people thinking about what sort of Chief Executive an absentee CEO like this would make.
It does not hurt that we get the fundamentalists riled up over his role in disposing of aborted fetuses, they get riled up over things like that in a big hurry and need little prodding to do so.
And again, it was a matter of his choice. He chose to leave suddenly "and leave the paperwork to be sorted out", it is not as if there were massively compelling personal or social reasons behind his decision to take over managing the Winter Olympics.
And nobody compelled him to take a $100K salary for his "not being there". That is another thing that gets people thinking about just what sort of Chief Executive this fellow would turn out to be.
| 95 |
McSpiff Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:35:09pm |
re: #93 Expand Your Ground
In a purely tactical sense, they have gone a bit too far.
We just need to get people thinking about what sort of Chief Executive an absentee CEO like this would make.
It does not hurt that we get the fundamentalists riled up over his role in disposing of aborted fetuses, they get riled up over things like that in a big hurry and need little prodding to do so.
And again, it was a matter of his choice. He chose to leave suddenly, it is not as if there were massively compelling personal or social reasons behind his decision to take over managing the Winter Olympics.
And nobody compelled him to take a $100K salary for his "not being there". That is another thing that gets people thinking about just what sort of Chief Executive this fellow would turn out to be.
Seriously, how great is this? He got paid $100k for what he describes as doing nothing. That's going to come out in the debates
| 96 |
Randall Gross Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:35:58pm |
re: #95 McSpiff
Maybe Mitt watched too many episodes of "The Sopranos".
| 97 |
engineer cat Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:36:30pm |
fact-checking
and since when have gop ads ever been the least bit respectful of the truth?
| 98 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:37:03pm |
re: #94 blueraven
Mocking!
Looks like a misfire to me. It really did make the Prez look 'cool'. The snark won't reach a lot of people.
| 99 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:37:25pm |
re: #89 Charles Johnson
That's just some of the stuff you insist on ignoring
I'm not ignoring it. We've discussed it to death and there's no sense in debating it further. We aren't going to agree.
| 100 |
blueraven Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:38:32pm |
re: #99 Killgore Trout
I'm not ignoring it. We've discussed it to death and there's no sense in debating it further. We aren't going to agree.
He said as he still continues to debate it.
| 101 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:39:17pm |
Presidential salary is currently around $230K. That will certainly motivate him to do at least twice as much nothing for America than he did for Bain...
| 102 |
Varek Raith Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:39:36pm |
re: #99 Killgore Trout
I'm not ignoring it. We've discussed it to death and there's no sense in debating it further. We aren't going to agree.
Yes, you are ignoring it because you can't explain it away.
Instead of debate you just drop it.
| 103 |
Kragar Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:41:29pm |
Iowa GOP State Senate Candidate Joins ‘Alternative’ U.S. Government
A Republican state Senate candidate in Iowa has decided to bow out of the race and become a U.S. senator of an alternative form of government.
In a letter released Friday, Randi Shannon informs supporters of her new position as “U.S. Senator in the Republic of the United States of America.” You see, according to Shannon, the U.S. government has been acting unlawfully as the “‘official government,’ which clearly it is not!”
The libertarian-leaning group she joined claims it “re-inhabited” the government on March 30, 2010. The group claims the “United States Corporation” unlawfully formed in 1871 without the American people’s consent. “Since 1871, the abuses of this corporation upon both the international community as well as the American people are inestimable and unconscionable,” the group’s website claims.
In her announcement letter, Shannon outlined her political plans. As someone who home schooled her own children, Shannon supports abolishing the Department of Education. She opposes unnecessary foreign wars. She believes life begins at conception. And she blames government abuse, invasive TSA screenings, “Obamacare,” and the 14th amendment on the corrupt “United States Corporation.”
| 104 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:41:32pm |
re: #99 Killgore Trout
I'm not ignoring it. We've discussed it to death and there's no sense in debating it further. We aren't going to agree.
I totally get that your mind is closed on the subject, but when you say things like "there's no evidence Romney was involved with Bain after 1999," I'm going to challenge that because it's not true.
| 105 |
gwangung Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:42:04pm |
re: #99 Killgore Trout
I'm not ignoring it. We've discussed it to death and there's no sense in debating it further. We aren't going to agree.
Says Mr. Dembski to the biologist.
Yes, you are, indeed, ignoring it.
| 106 |
engineer cat Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:43:19pm |
it was just depressing to watch mitt on teevee yesterday looking tense and unhappy as he did a very poor job of answering questions about all this
| 107 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:44:34pm |
re: #93 Expand Your Ground
In a purely tactical sense, they have gone a bit too far.
We just need to get people thinking about what sort of Chief Executive an absentee CEO like this would make.
It does not hurt that we get the fundamentalists riled up over his role in disposing of aborted fetuses, they get riled up over things like that in a big hurry and need little prodding to do so.
And again, it was a matter of his choice. He chose to leave suddenly "and leave the paperwork to be sorted out", it is not as if there were massively compelling personal or social reasons behind his decision to take over managing the Winter Olympics.
And nobody compelled him to take a $100K salary for his "not being there". That is another thing that gets people thinking about just what sort of Chief Executive this fellow would turn out to be.
More or less agreed with the possible exception of "It does not hurt that we get the fundamentalists riled up..." The religious right doesn't need much help getting riled up, they'll do that on their own. I see a lot of potential downsides to stretching this story too far. Already we see the friction it causes even among Obama supporters (yes, I am one) concerning the honesty of the attacks. I realize politics get nasty and isn't always honest but it's going too far for my taste. Somebody mentioned the Hillary Clinton cattle futures story upthread, we've all seen this played out before. It often adds up to nothing.
| 108 |
Randall Gross Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:44:50pm |
This wouldn't be news except for the fact that Mitt and partisan people keep trying to say it's not true, when it very obviously is. Cover ups and denials will just keep it out front with the public until election day because the facts are there, and more will come out.
| 109 |
blueraven Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:45:13pm |
Silence! The great and powerful OZ has spoken.
pay no attention to that politician/businessman behind the curtain
| 110 |
TedStriker Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:45:52pm |
re: #89 Charles Johnson
That's not true. There's quite a bit of evidence that Romney was much more involved than he wants to admit. You're just ignoring it ... again.
1) His name on SEC filings as CEO and Managing Director.
2) His testimony that he made trips to Massachusetts to attend board meetings after February 1999.
3) A Bain press release in which he's quoted very clearly making a statement as an acting CEO, about the departure of two Bain officials.
That's just some of the stuff you insist on ignoring. There's more. And yes, this is evidence that Mitt Romney continued to have an active role in Bain Capital long after he claimed he "retired." You may not like the evidence, for whatever reason, but it is evidence, and it's all based on facts.
I get the vibe that KT, BryanS, and Mitt's other Lizard defenders over this are just basically sticking their fingers in their virtual ears and go "LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!", because they can't logically dispute the SEC filings and Mitt's own statements from back then, they have to obfuscate and distract from the facts at hand.
It really comes off sounding like a variant of the Chewbacca Defense to me, in a way...
| 111 |
Randall Gross Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:46:45pm |
Well I have some carpets to clean... later.
| 112 |
Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:48:22pm |
re: #105 gwangung
Says Mr. Dembski to the biologist.
Yes, you are, indeed, ignoring it.
It's not Killgore's task to match your pathetic level of detail.
/
| 113 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:49:45pm |
re: #107 Killgore Trout
It is a very hard thing to call off a successful attack before it overstretches itself and becomes vulnerable. If people think they have Mitt by the jugular and this will finish him off politically, then they will get crazed by it and overcome by their own hubris.
I do not see this as a smoking gun or felonious intent, I just see it as evidence that he would make a bad choice as Chief Executive the USA.
| 114 |
TavernWench Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:49:54pm |
Saw this today, here in Cincinnati, while watching ESPN. I gasped. That's exactly how good this ad is.
| 115 |
TedStriker Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:50:39pm |
re: #102 Varek Raith
Yes, you are ignoring it because you can't explain it away.
Instead of debate you just drop it.
I think this about covers KT's current position on Mitt and Bain (circa 1999-2002):
| 116 |
palomino Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:51:23pm |
re: #107 Killgore Trout
More or less agreed with the possible exception of "It does not hurt that we get the fundamentalists riled up..." The religious right doesn't need much help getting riled up, they'll do that on their own. I see a lot of potential downsides to stretching this story too far. Already we see the friction it causes even among Obama supporters (yes, I am one) concerning the honesty of the attacks. I realize politics get nasty and isn't always honest but it's going too far for my taste. Somebody mentioned the Hillary Clinton cattle futures story upthread, we've all seen this played out before. It often adds up to nothing.
Hillary's cattle futures "scandal" was merely an investment she made. Bain is Romney's life work. Just a tad different.
| 117 |
gwangung Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:51:53pm |
re: #113 Expand Your Ground
It is a very hard thing to call off a successful attack before it overstretches itself and becomes vulnerable. If people think they have Mitt by the jugular and this will finish him off politically, then they will get crazed by it and overcome by their own hubris.
I do not see this as a smoking gun or felonious intent, I just see it as evidence that he would make a bad choice as Chief Executive the USA.
Yeah, I'd agree.
It pretty much shows is that Romney is sloppy, not good on the details and doesn't feel the rules need to apply to him in any way, shape or form.
Not Presidential material.
| 118 |
Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:52:58pm |
re: #98 Decatur Deb
Looks like a misfire to me. It really did make the Prez look 'cool'. The snark won't reach a lot of people.
What I don't see is what the "celebrity" status has to do with anything. A, all presidents are celebrities to some degree (even Nixon had his Laugh-In spot). B, are we to think that Obama spent so much time with Jimmy Fallon that he didn't have time for his day job?
| 119 |
Sionainn Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:53:47pm |
re: #103 Kragar
Iowa GOP State Senate Candidate Joins ‘Alternative’ U.S. Government
I'm embarrassed for all people named "Shannon."
| 120 |
allegro Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:54:25pm |
Obama ran an almost flawless campaign in '08 from the nomination through to the final stretch. And now he has the added experience of having done it once successfully. I think this ad is a brilliant sign of what's to come in the next 3 months. Major popcorn consuming is fixin' to ensue.
| 121 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:54:41pm |
I think it probably is going too far to accuse Romney of crimes, but I don't know the laws enough to say whether it could be true or not.
But I think it's clear that whatever the letter of the law says, he was playing fast and loose with the spirit of the law, by remaining CEO and allowing his name to be used as such for years, then obtaining a "retroactive" retirement agreement.
This is actually the first time I've ever heard of a "retroactive" retirement. I guess that kind of thing is possible when you're also the sole shareholder.
| 122 |
Varek Raith Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:55:14pm |
re: #103 Kragar
Iowa GOP State Senate Candidate Joins ‘Alternative’ U.S. Government
What the flying fuck...
| 123 |
gwangung Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:56:18pm |
re: #118 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne
What I don't see is what the "celebrity" status has to do with anything. A, all presidents are celebrities to some degree (even Nixon had his Laugh-In spot). B, are we to think that Obama spent so much time with Jimmy Fallon that he didn't have time for his day job?
I think even the most die-hard Tea Partyist will admit that the President has a tremendous edge in "coolness" over Romney.
| 124 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:56:30pm |
re: #103 Kragar
Iowa GOP State Senate Candidate Joins ‘Alternative’ U.S. Government
In other words, a call for Civil War. And not just a "War Between the States" with parts of the Union seceeding, but a true struggle between two groups for control of the entire USA.
I have not seen any sort of behavior like this from any elected official outside the Third World.
| 125 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:56:30pm |
All 5 of Mitt Romney's network TV interviews in one 60 second video... pwire.at/NojwRx
— Taegan Goddard (@politicalwire) July 14, 2012
Weird grin when answering the questions. Dude was nervous as hell.
| 126 |
uncah91 Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:58:37pm |
re: #110 TedStriker
I get the vibe that KT, BryanS, and Mitt's other Lizard defenders over this are just basically sticking their fingers in their virtual ears and go "LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!", because they can't logically dispute the SEC filings and Mitt's own statements from back then, they have to obfuscate and distract from the facts at hand.
It really comes off sounding like a variant of the Chewbacca Defense to me, in a way...
Well, I'm sympathetic to the idea that the attack of "Mitt is completely responsible for Bain's actions after 1999" is likely overreach.
But Romney screwed the pooch on this way back in 2002 when he claimed he had "no involvement". Now he is forced to repeat that, even to the point of filing it with the FEC. It shows his basic prediction to severely bend the truth, if he believes it to be to his advantage.
| 127 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:59:08pm |
re: #113 Expand Your Ground
It is a very hard thing to call off a successful attack before it overstretches itself and becomes vulnerable. If people think they have Mitt by the jugular and this will finish him off politically, then they will get crazed by it and overcome by their own hubris.
I do not see this as a smoking gun or felonious intent, I just see it as evidence that he would make a bad choice as Chief Executive the USA.
Well said.
| 128 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:59:10pm |
re: #120 allegro
Obama ran an almost flawless campaign in '08 from the nomination through to the final stretch. And now he has the added experience of having done it once successfully. I think this ad is a brilliant sign of what's to come in the next 3 months. Major popcorn consuming is fixin' to ensue.
The reviews of Mitt's hootenany are on Freep. They're reaching hopelessly for the hook.
| 129 |
JamesWI Sat, Jul 14, 2012 12:59:37pm |
I think I know how to spoil the "non-partisan fact-checkers" for KT. Just ask the fact-checkers the following question: "Is it true that OWS is really just an organization for murderers, rapists, communists, and every other sort of horrible person?"
After they come back in the negative, you know he'll have to disown them.
| 130 |
uncah91 Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:01:00pm |
re: #121 Charles Johnson
I think it probably is going too far to accuse Romney of crimes, but I don't know the laws enough to say whether it could be true or not.
But I think it's clear that whatever the letter of the law says, he was playing fast and loose with the spirit of the law, by remaining CEO and allowing his name to be used as such for years, then obtaining a "retroactive" retirement agreement.
This is actually the first time I've ever heard of a "retroactive" retirement. I guess that kind of thing is possible when you're also the sole shareholder.
I think his filing to the FEC might be technically criminal. Not that these sorts of things are likely to lead to charges.
| 131 |
blueraven Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:01:23pm |
re: #121 Charles Johnson
I think it probably is going too far to accuse Romney of crimes, but I don't know the laws enough to say whether it could be true or not.
But I think it's clear that whatever the letter of the law says, he was playing fast and loose with the spirit of the law, by remaining CEO and allowing his name to be used as such for years, then obtaining a "retroactive" retirement agreement.
This is actually the first time I've ever heard of a "retroactive" retirement. I guess that kind of thing is possible when you're also the sole shareholder.
Yes, I agree. But I think the phrasing was "possible felony"
I also think the intent for that was to get Romney incensed enough to come out and try to defend himself.
He did a very poor job of that yesterday, which will only add fuel to the fire.
| 132 |
dragonath Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:02:39pm |
re: #124 Expand Your Ground
1871 is a weird freakin' date. Oh wait... here's a clue. The Civil Rights Act of 1871.
| 133 |
TedStriker Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:05:06pm |
re: #132 Be Zorch, Daddio
Don't you mean the Civil Rights Act of 1871?
| 134 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:05:24pm |
re: #124 Expand Your Ground
In other words, a call for Civil War. And not just a "War Between the States" with parts of the Union seceeding, but a true struggle between two groups for control of the entire USA.
I have not seen any sort of behavior like this from any elected official outside the Third World.
Rarely see the crazy in such elegant typography.
| 136 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:06:18pm |
re: #131 blueraven
Yes, I agree. But I think the phrasing was "possible felony"
I also think the intent for that was to get Romney incensed enough to come out and try to defend himself.He did a very poor job of that yesterday, which will only add fuel to the fire.
I think retroactive retirement works best if you're a Time Lord.
| 137 |
blueraven Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:07:30pm |
re: #136 Decatur Deb
I think retroactive retirement works best if you're a Time Lord.
Or an Overlord. Either one
| 138 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:07:44pm |
I'd like a retroactive retirement back-dated to 2000, please.
| 139 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:07:54pm |
WaPo's factchecker:Weighing the evidence on Romney’s departure from Bain: A response to readers
I readily concede that the years 1999-2002 represent a gray period in Romney’s background.
The SEC documents, especially the ones Romney signed, do raise some questions. One could suggest that because Romney did not fully extricate himself from Bain until after his Olympic sojourn ended, he should bear some responsibility for what happened at Bain in these years. You could even say he hired the people who made these mistakes.
But that is entirely different from suggesting that he had a direct role in these suspect transactions — as Obama’s ads claim — or that the SEC documents open Romney up to civil or even potential criminal investigation, as the Obama campaign has charged.
I will continue to evaluate the claims made by each campaign on a case -by-case basis. If new evidence emerges showing Romney had a direct involvement in suspect transactions, that certainly would become part of the evaluation.
| 140 |
allegro Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:08:39pm |
re: #121 Charles Johnson
I don't really see the legality raising issues as being of much importance. It isn't the details that matter as much as the growing narrative of this man's ethics and actions. He has made much of his vast fortune leaving a trail of trashed lives behind him. He clearly gets to play by a different set of rules (see IRA) than the rest of us. He lies/panders/says whatever is the most convenient at the time without regard to the truth. He puts his dog on the roof and pushes his children's faces into their ice cream as a joke. He likes to fire people who provide services to him and you know he loves that nice 5 figure tax credit for his horse. On and on..
He is becoming the icon of the reasons behind the real hurt and anger people are feeling - why this ad is so brilliant.
| 141 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:08:56pm |
re: #138 Charles Johnson
I'd like a retroactive retirement back-dated to 2000, please.
There's a new company called Total Recall. I hear they do nice work.
| 142 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:09:02pm |
re: #138 Charles Johnson
I'd like a retroactive retirement back-dated to 2000, please.
I want a proactive retirement at full salary...
| 143 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:09:10pm |
re: #139 Killgore Trout
He's starting to walk it back. Now it's a "gray period."
Glenn Kessler has not covered himself in glory on this story.
| 144 |
blueraven Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:09:23pm |
re: #139 Killgore Trout
WaPo's factchecker:Weighing the evidence on Romney’s departure from Bain: A response to readers
That's a good start. Glad to know they are now open to more investigation of the facts.
| 145 |
Mattand Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:11:45pm |
#143 Charles Johnson
He's starting to walk it back. Now it's a "gray period."
Glenn Kessler has not covered himself in glory on this story.
How much you want to bet Kessler winds up working for Fox in some capacity after the election?
| 146 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:12:36pm |
re: #143 Charles Johnson
He's starting to walk it back. Now it's a "gray period."
Glenn Kessler has not covered himself in glory on this story.
IMHO, The best of his gray period paintings was Willard's Motherfucker.
| 147 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:13:46pm |
I know Kessler is supposed to be the Post's fact-checker, but there are plenty of other Post writers and columnists who don't support his attempts to soft-pedal this story. Must be a lot of tension at those meetings these days.
| 148 |
Targetpractice Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:14:06pm |
re: #141 Killgore Trout
There's a new company called Total Recall. I hear they do nice work.
I tried, but all I got was this video of me telling me to get my ass to Mars.
//
| 149 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:14:23pm |
re: #143 Charles Johnson
He's starting to walk it back. Now it's a "gray period."
Glenn Kessler has not covered himself in glory on this story.
I think he's softened his phrasing under the heat. I know Both Factcheck.org and CNN's Fortune guy both have previously acknowledged that it is possible that Mitt played a larger role in Bain past 99 but the evidence being cited (SEC forms, etc) did not prove it. I think they're all open to new evidence but what has been presented so far is unconvincing.
| 150 |
Interesting Times Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:16:04pm |
re: #131 blueraven
Yes, I agree. But I think the phrasing was "possible felony"
I also think the intent for that was to get Romney incensed enough to come out and try to defend himself.
You know that old cliché, "It's not the Crime, it's the Cover-up"? It's what got Martha Stewart thrown in jail (though in hindset, she sure deserved it a HELL of a lot less than the execs of JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, etc etc etc ad naseam)
So if Mitt did indeed lie to the SEC at some point, it's entirely fair game to speculate he may have committed that rarest of offenses*
*a crime that actually can send a rich person to jail
| 151 |
darthstar Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:17:18pm |
I watched that ad with the sound off this morning in bed (didn't want to wake the missus)...great effects on Romney's voice (adding echo). Makes the ad all the more haunting and effective. Let's hope it plays nationwide in October.
| 152 |
darthstar Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:18:44pm |
Yes, Charles...'brutal' is the perfect word to describe that ad. Romney needs to learn that if you're going to run with the big dogs, you're not going to be able to keep them on the roof of your car.
| 153 |
uncah91 Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:19:22pm |
Kornacki at Salon had the best take I have seen on this. He didn't unwind things until 2002 because he had every intention of comin back.
Quoting Mitt:
"When I left my employer in Massachusetts in February of 1999 to accept the Olympic assignment, I left on the basis of a leave of absence, indicating that I, by virtue of that title, would return at the end of the Olympics to my employment at Bain Capital, but subsequently decided not to do so and entered into a departure agreement with my former partners, I use that in the colloquial sense, not legal sense, but my former partners"
| 154 |
freetoken Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:19:45pm |
re: #103 Kragar
Iowa GOP State Senate Candidate Joins ‘Alternative’ U.S. Government
This "United States Corporation" stuff has been around a long time, and while it is true that there is the Civil Rights Act of 1871 that certain types despise, the Paulians of course care about one thing: GOLD!!
Here's just one example of very many of a (lefty) blogger who was arm-twisted to looking into this looniness: “United States corporation” and the District of Columbia Organic Act of 1871 – more anti-”banker” misinfo (disinfo?)
| 155 |
blueraven Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:20:27pm |
re: #150 Interesting Times
You know that old cliché, "It's not the Crime, it's the Cover-up"? It's what got Martha Stewart thrown in jail (though in hindset, she sure deserved it a HELL of a lot less than the execs of JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, etc etc etc ad naseam)
So if Mitt did indeed lie to the SEC at some point, it's entirely fair game to speculate he may have committed that rarest of offenses*
*a crime that actually can send a rich person to jail
I think the Obama team have done their homework on this. They dont think he actually lied then to the SEC, they think he is lying now.
Using this heated rhetoric was their tactic to make him respond and dig in even deeper, which will be worse when the truth comes out.
| 156 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:20:38pm |
Hilarious ... Romney's response to this ad is to claim that Barack Obama is making fun of "America the Beautiful!"
Romney campaign says Obama attack ad mocks 'America the Beautiful,' will backfire. Do you see it that way? ow.ly/cf2cF— Byron York (@ByronYork) July 14, 2012
Perfect wingnut talking point. They'll love this one.
| 157 |
darthstar Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:20:52pm |
For all you listless hipster shitheads...some street poetry
| 158 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:23:04pm |
re: #156 Charles Johnson
Hilarious ... Romney's response to this ad is to claim that Barack Obama is making fun of "America the Beautiful!"
[Embedded content]
Perfect wingnut talking point. They'll love this one.
Already read a couple Freep threads on it--their unhappiness is focused on Romney for a flailing response. Usual homophobic crap, turned his way.
| 159 |
blueraven Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:23:30pm |
re: #156 Charles Johnson
Hilarious ... the Romney's response to this ad is to claim that Barack Obama is making fun of "America the Beautiful!"
[Embedded content]
Perfect wingnut talking point. They'll love this one.
Looks like even Byron York is not buying the Romney claim on this.
| 160 |
darthstar Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:23:58pm |
re: #156 Charles Johnson
"If you're responding, you're losing #endofquote" by @MittRomney #p2 #forward #obama2012— Sean McCabe (@darthstar99) July 14, 2012
| 161 |
darthstar Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:25:19pm |
re: #159 blueraven
Looks like even Byron York is not buying the Romney claim on this.
Wasn't he Superman's mother in the first movie...or was that Susannah York?
| 162 |
freetoken Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:25:24pm |
re: #159 blueraven
Looks like even Byron York is not buying the Romney claim on this.
I think the reality is rather, York doesn't want to carry the water this time. He'll do the bidding of his masters on many an occasion, but sometimes something is so stupid that it is just too much for him.
| 163 |
gwangung Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:26:01pm |
re: #139 Killgore Trout
WaPo's factchecker:Weighing the evidence on Romney’s departure from Bain: A response to readers
If it's a "gray period", you have no grounds to be awarding Pinnochios, dude.
| 164 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:30:13pm |
re: #163 gwangung
If it's a "gray period", you have no grounds to be awarding Pinnochios, dude.
I disagree. The evidence provided didn't support the claims in the ads. It would be a logical fallacy require a fact checker to prove a negative (eg. "Mitt never worked for Bain past '99'). He checked the evidence provided for the positive claims in the adds and found them unconvincing.
| 165 |
dragonath Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:30:53pm |
re: #154 freetoken
You know what the really crazy part about her letter is? She capitalizes every word at random, like some crazed freeper.
In point of fact, it is the reason why “We the People” Instead of Experiencing Freedom and Prosperity, suffer under the weight of Oppressive Statutes and an Out of Control, Monstrous National Debt which is Robbing Us and All Future Generations of Americans of Our Treasure and Our Legacy for which Our Founding Fathers’ so Valiantly Fought and Died.
| 166 |
uncah91 Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:34:02pm |
re: #164 Killgore Trout
I disagree. The evidence provided didn't support the claims in the ads. It would be a logical fallacy require a fact checker to prove a negative (eg. "Mitt never worked for Bain past '99'). He checked the evidence provided for the positive claims in the adds and found them unconvincing.
What do you think would happen if they fact checked Romney's claim that he had "no involvement" with Bain past 99?
| 167 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:35:46pm |
This looks really good....
The Walking Dead Season 3 Comic-Con Trailer
| 168 |
gwangung Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:35:49pm |
re: #164 Killgore Trout
I disagree. The evidence provided didn't support the claims in the ads. It would be a logical fallacy require a fact checker to prove a negative (eg. "Mitt never worked for Bain past '99'). He checked the evidence provided for the positive claims in the adds and found them unconvincing.
The evidence with the signatures, and all, it is consistent with the claims.
You have yet to say where it is not consistent.
| 169 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:36:36pm |
re: #166 uncah91
What do you think would happen if they fact checked Romney's claim that he had "no involvement" with Bain past 99?
They might have already. That would be an untrue statement.
| 170 |
b_sharp Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:36:49pm |
re: #164 Killgore Trout
I disagree. The evidence provided didn't support the claims in the ads. It would be a logical fallacy require a fact checker to prove a negative (eg. "Mitt never worked for Bain past '99'). He checked the evidence provided for the positive claims in the adds and found them unconvincing.
Perhaps he should do what science does, try to disprove the hypothesis by looking for evidence Romney did work for Bain after '99.
| 171 |
freetoken Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:37:07pm |
re: #139 Killgore Trout
Once again, I'll take up what I think is the important question: Does Mitt Romney bear any responsibility for Bain between 1999 and 2002?
This is a question that the fact checker isn't directly addressing - they are still stuck on technicalities of "tenure" in management decisions. Thus when Kessler sees that more documents without Romney's name than with he calls it a "gray period".
However, Romney still having ownership is not disputed. And with that ownership I claim comes responsibility. It wasn't until Romney announced he wanted to get into politics that he negotiated himself totally out of the Bain picture.
| 172 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:38:50pm |
re: #165 Be Zorch, Daddio
You know what the really crazy part about her letter is? She capitalizes every word at random, like some crazed freeper.
No, that is a vaunted 18th-century style of capitalizing the Important Words in a document. In fact, they often capitalized WHOLE WORDS that they thought were IMPORTANT.
But that also fits in with the fact that her head is still stuck in the Days Before
!(/! (that's 1871 in caps)
| 173 |
gwangung Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:39:24pm |
re: #171 freetoken
However, Romney still having ownership is not disputed. And with that ownership I claim comes responsibility.
The law does, too.
| 174 |
kirkspencer Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:39:34pm |
CEO, President, Directing Manager, sole shareholder, company representative on purchased companies, but not really "involved" in the business.
What is "is", anyway?
| 175 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:41:56pm |
re: #171 freetoken
However, Romney still having ownership is not disputed. And with that ownership I claim comes responsibility. It wasn't until Romney announced he wanted to get into politics that he negotiated himself totally out of the Bain picture.
I keep beating on the idea of Choice (which I have capitalized because it is important), and that he Chose to take the position with the Olympics at short notice, Chose to accept a six-figure salary and Chose to keep his options open with Bain, which meant remaining the owner and CEO.
| 176 |
uncah91 Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:42:38pm |
re: #169 Killgore Trout
They might have already. That would be an untrue statement.
Not " would be", is ... it is an untrue statement.
Romney has been making this untrue statement since late in 2002 governors election. And he is stuck on it. It's not defensible. And the claims in the ads in question essentially rest on the fact that Romney was in fact involved with Bain.
| 177 |
darthstar Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:46:50pm |
Romney took today off from campaigning. Here he is relaxing in front of his home in New Hampshire.
Image: enhanced-buzz-17438-1342298104-7.jpg
iPod, iPhone...probably simply not looking at his blind trust.
Wider shot.
Image: enhanced-buzz-30158-1342298126-13.jpg
| 178 |
freetoken Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:48:17pm |
re: #175 Expand Your Ground
Indeed.
And after the Olympics whetted his appetite for politics on a non-local scale, Romney decided to go into politics full time (something else he denies - having been a politician since 2001.) It was then that Romney negotiated his way to settlements that could be put into blind trusts (as would be expected of a rich politician).
This bailing on the concept of responsibility is something that I think is worth noting.
This is the goal of the modern American "capitalist": to sit on boards of companies but never be held responsible for the decisions of the corporation.
Mitt Romney wants the fruit of the position - taking the money in the end - but not be held responsible for the decisions.
This is how he now approaches his time as governor of MA also - note how he runs from his (previously thought as pretty decent) record as governor, in this case obviously to run from Romneycare and abortion.
| 179 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:50:33pm |
re: #41 Randall Gross
Can you explain how someone can legally get 100 million dollars into a 401K in a short time the way it appears that Mitt did? That one still has me scratching my head.
I found the answer a couple of days ago.
But the way described in the Vanity Fair article and in the WSJ article doesn’t appear to be legal in Romney’s instance, even though this tactic would be legal in other instances—i.e., when there is some actual tangible difference between the risk and value of the two classes of stocks, and when the stock placed in the IRA is given a legitimate, rather than fraudulently low, value.
The relevant paragraphs of the WSJ article read:
The tax-deferral opportunity stemmed from the way Bain often chose to structure the shares of companies after taking them over.Even if the companies had only one share class, Bain frequently gave them two classes, usually called Class L and Class A, according to former employees, Bain internal documents and securities filings. Because Bain controlled the companies, it had flexibility in assigning values to the classes.
...
Can it really be that all that was legally necessary was to simply separate objectively identically-valuable stocks from a single company into two classes of stocks whose only difference is the arbitrary value that the company assigns the stocks, rather than the actual tangible value of the stocks?
Basically Charles nailed it. Because Bain controlled the companies it bought (with leverage) it was able to arbitrarily split a single class of stock into two pools, and stuff one of these pools into Bain board member IRAs at ridiculously low valuations.
| 180 |
darthstar Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:51:05pm |
Another thought on what Romney's doing with his iPad...
@BuzzFeedAndrew Doing what everyone else is today: Watching Obama ads.— BWD (@theonlyadult) July 14, 2012
| 181 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:52:09pm |
re: #177 darthstar
That second shot should convey (at least for Romney's campagn) the message of "Vote for me and I will increase the chance that you too might be able to live like this some day!", but what Mitt and his campaign have turned it into is "I've got mine, suckah! You're on your own!"
| 182 |
darthstar Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:54:07pm |
Diary with link to SEC filings for anyone interested in reading them for themselves...
[Link: www.dailykos.com...]
| 183 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:54:57pm |
re: #180 darthstar
Another thought on what Romney's doing with his iPad...
[Embedded content]
Relatively few people watch web ads like that, maybe 1 in 5 would do that in July. And most Americans won't see the ads on TV, because only 12 of the Lower 48 states are seeing major ad buys. New Hampshire is one of them, though.
| 185 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:57:44pm |
re: #180 darthstar
Another thought on what Romney's doing with his iPad...
[Embedded content]
Romney is at least going to avoid the bad photo there was of Obama four years ago--the flat tire.
Image: enhanced-buzz-22774-1342298179-7.jpg
I don't see him on the bike, but he has the helmet and the pump.
| 186 |
darthstar Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:58:49pm |
Hey #Romney - you know who else took weekends off from campaigning and avoided the national press?McCainHow'd that work for him? #p2— Sean McCabe (@darthstar99) July 14, 2012
| 187 |
Stanghazi Sat, Jul 14, 2012 1:59:34pm |
Today, in two pictures. Obama: bit.ly/Mu8ndi, Romney: bit.ly/Mu8s0u
— Jeff DeWitt (@jeffersondewitt) July 14, 2012
| 189 |
darthstar Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:01:05pm |
re: #187 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012
I saw you RT that so I posted it too...GMTA.
| 190 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:01:36pm |
| 191 |
palomino Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:02:03pm |
As far as Obama's admin crossing a line in attacking Romney, we should get a few things straight.
First, we all know politics ain't beanbag, especially at the presidential level. Examples: The Willie Horton ad that basically called Dukakis an accessory to rape. The attacks on Bill Clinton that he was a traitor for protesting the War while studying abroad in college. Kerry, a highly decorated soldier, being swift boated and labeled a traitor. And Obama being accused of "paling around with terrorists" (by Palin) AND not loving or understanding America (by Romney himself) AND being an un-American socialist (by virtually everyone in the GOP).
Should Obama just sit back and play nice when no one else is? It is in fact true that if Romney lied on SEC docs, he's susceptible to a perjury charge. And clearly Bain engaged in conduct Romney wants to dissociate himself from. It would be campaign malpractice not to jump all over this.
| 192 |
darthstar Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:02:31pm |
If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck...
GOP Alabama Governor on Romney hiding his records: "If you have things to hide, then maybe you're doing things wrong" hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...— Oliver Willis (@owillis) July 14, 2012
| 193 |
dragonath Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:02:41pm |
re: #188 darthstar
It would suck to be a kayaker on Romney Pond.
| 194 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:03:21pm |
re: #183 Dark_Falcon
And most Americans won't see the ads on TV, because only 12 of the Lower 48 states are seeing major ad buys.
You're missing the point of doing quality Youtube ads. The investment is incredibly low and if they can generate enough buzz to get aired for free on the news networks and written about by pundits then the bang to buck ratio goes through the roof. I'm guessing at least one if not two Obama ads get shown on virtually every morning show tomorrow - McLaughlin Group, Meet the Press, CBS Sunday Morning, ABC's This Week, and even Fox News Sunday.
| 195 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:03:23pm |
| 196 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:03:47pm |
re: #187 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012
[Embedded content]
Mitt's got a pretty big family, judging by the number of children on that boat. On that matter, I can relate (heh), or more accurately my father and his siblings can.
| 197 |
darthstar Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:03:55pm |
re: #193 Be Zorch, Daddio
It would suck to be a kayaker on Romney Pond.
Go run over those poor people, gran-pa!
Image: enhanced-buzz-17438-1342298227-12.jpg
| 198 |
darthstar Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:06:06pm |
re: #194 goddamnedfrank
You're missing the point of doing quality Youtube ads. The investment is incredibly low and if they can generate enough buzz to get aired for free on the news networks and written about by pundits then the bang to buck ratio goes through the roof. I'm guessing at least one if not two Obama ads get shown on virtually every morning show tomorrow - McLaughlin Group, Meet the Press, CBS Sunday Morning, ABC's This Week, and even Fox News Sunday.
I really wish there was a law that said News networks could only show 10 seconds of a campaign ad as part of the news story. The Romney ads (and some Obama ones) get national airing multiple times a day as 'news'...and it's not news, it's manipulating the system to get free air time.
| 199 |
darthstar Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:07:45pm |
Hey CNN...It's not 'swiftboating'
They destroyed Kerry with lies. We're destroying Romney with the truth.— BWD (@theonlyadult) July 14, 2012
| 200 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:07:57pm |
re: #197 darthstar
Go run over those poor people, gran-pa!
Image: enhanced-buzz-17438-1342298227-12.jpg
Have a care, DS, and don't fling the insults at the kids. That's like flinging insults at Barack Obama's daughters: Tasteless, hurtful and wrong.
| 201 |
blueraven Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:07:57pm |
re: #191 palomino
As far as Obama's admin crossing a line in attacking Romney, we should get a few things straight.
First, we all know politics ain't beanbag, especially at the presidential level. Examples: The Willie Horton ad that basically called Dukakis an accessory to rape. The attacks on Bill Clinton that he was a traitor for protesting the War while studying abroad in college. Kerry, a highly decorated soldier, being swift boated and labeled a traitor. And Obama being accused of "paling around with terrorists" (by Palin) AND not loving or understanding America (by Romney himself) AND being an un-American socialist (by virtually everyone in the GOP).
Should Obama just sit back and play nice when no one else is? It is in fact true that if Romney lied on SEC docs, he's susceptible to a perjury charge. And clearly Bain engaged in conduct Romney wants to dissociate himself from. It would be campaign malpractice not to jump all over this.
All very true. But here is the right wing talking point on that
Obama said he was going to be different!!
They somehow took that to mean he would be passive and not punch back, and punch back hard. Obama is no stranger to hardball politics. He can be brutal.
But I think it is when he has been provoked.
All this apologizing for America crap Romney spouts, campaigning with Donald freaking birther Trump!
Welcome to the show Mitt.
| 202 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:09:32pm |
re: #198 darthstar
I really wish there was a law that said News networks could only show 10 seconds of a campaign ad as part of the news story. The Romney ads (and some Obama ones) get national airing multiple times a day as 'news'...and it's not news, it's manipulating the system to get free air time.
I think the bigger problem is that the news networks are allowed to sell ad time during informational broadcasts. I don't mind them airing political ad to report on them so much as letting paid for advertising concerns dictate what they report and how they report it.
| 203 |
darthstar Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:10:10pm |
re: #200 Dark_Falcon
Have a care, DS, and don't fling the insults at the kids. That's like flinging insults at Barack Obama's daughters: Tasteless, hurtful and wrong.
Ever vigilant with the unnecessary defense of simple humor. Nobody's insulting the kids.
| 204 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:10:55pm |
re: #182 darthstar
Diary with link to SEC filings for anyone interested in reading them for themselves...
[Link: www.dailykos.com...]
That's a good link. This is a small part of the delight it offers:
| 205 |
darthstar Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:12:49pm |
re: #204 wrenchwench
That's a good link. This is a small part of the delight it offers:
[Embedded content]
Ooh...I didn't know he gave McCain 20 years of records. Share the tax returns, McCain you addled old fart.
| 206 |
JAFO Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:14:10pm |
re: #205 darthstar
Ooh...I didn't know he gave McCain 20 years of records. Share the tax returns, McCain you addled old fart.
And then McCain picked Sarah Palin!
| 207 |
darthstar Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:14:38pm |
re: #206 Big Joe
And then McCain picked Sarah Palin!
Well, when Mitt winked at him it creeped the fuck out of him.
| 208 |
palomino Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:14:41pm |
re: #183 Dark_Falcon
Relatively few people watch web ads like that, maybe 1 in 5 would do that in July. And most Americans won't see the ads on TV, because only 12 of the Lower 48 states are seeing major ad buys. New Hampshire is one of them, though.
But, due to our electoral college, those 12 states are the only ones that matter...no other states are in play. People like you and me (in CA, IL, TX, etc) don't really cast votes that matter at the prez level because our states are so solidly blue or red.
A system that encourages candidates to spend more time in 10 states than the other 40 combined seems off kilter. And a system that encourages candidates to spend more time in Miami than NYC, LA, Chicago, Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, Seattle, San Fran, etc. COMBINED is just downright ass-backwards.
| 209 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:15:42pm |
re: #206 Big Joe
And then McCain picked Sarah Palin!
She had better looking ...
.
.
.
...tax returns.
That's it.
Better looking tax returns.
| 210 |
uncah91 Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:16:20pm |
re: #208 palomino
But, due to our electoral college, those 12 states are the only ones that matter...no other states are in play. People like you and me (in CA, IL, TX, etc) don't really cast votes that matter at the prez level because our states are so solidly blue or red.
A system that encourages candidates to spend more time in 10 states than the other 40 combined seems off kilter. And a system that encourages candidates to spend more time in Miami than NYC, LA, Chicago, Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, Seattle, San Fran, etc. COMBINED is just downright ass-backwards.
Now, if the election was in February, the whole Miami thing would make perfect sense.
| 211 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:17:09pm |
re: #205 darthstar
Ooh...I didn't know he gave McCain 20 years of records. Share the tax returns, McCain you addled old fart.
I'm really hoping they get "accidentally" leaked. The Romney ragegasm would be epic.
Then twenty years later we find out it was Megan McCain who released them using her scary ninja skills.
| 212 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:17:13pm |
re: #208 palomino
A system that encourages candidates to spend more time in 10 states than the other 40 combined seems off kilter.
I say we should keep the Electoral College - but only in reserve to sort out those elections where there is no clear majority winner in the popular vote.
| 213 |
JAFO Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:17:39pm |
re: #209 wrenchwench
She had better looking ...
.
.
.
...tax returns.
That's it.
Better looking tax returns.
He thought she had less baggage. It turns out she just had cheaper luggage.
| 214 |
darthstar Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:18:31pm |
If corporations are people then Exxon-Mobil merger was same sex marriage.— Peter Flom (@peterflom) July 14, 2012
| 215 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:18:54pm |
re: #213 Big Joe
He thought she had less baggage. It turns out she just had cheaper luggage.
It was not the baggage she brought along that sank her, it was the babbling...
| 216 |
palomino Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:19:28pm |
re: #201 blueraven
All very true. But here is the right wing talking point on that
Obama said he was going to be different!!
They somehow took that to mean he would be passive and not punch back, and punch back hard. Obama is no stranger to hardball politics. He can be brutal.
But I think it is when he has been provoked.All this apologizing for America crap Romney spouts, campaigning with Donald freaking birther Trump!
Welcome to the show Mitt.
Obama was different back in 2008. He continued to be deferential to Hillary even after she refused to concede despite having no chance to catch him in the delegate race.
He also showed great respect for McCain. Most of his attacks were understandably aimed at Bush, and he didn't have to dig deep or get mean since Bush was already the least popular president since Herbert Hoover.
This time not only has he been rat fucked by the GOP for the last 4 years, but he knows he won't win by being Mr. Nice Guy. He just can't run a 2008 campaign in a 2012 environment.
| 217 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:19:44pm |
re: #213 Big Joe
He thought she had less baggage. It turns out she just had cheaper luggage.
And all the hat boxes were empty.
| 218 |
TedStriker Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:22:09pm |
re: #188 darthstar
[Embedded content]
re: #193 Be Zorch, Daddio
It would suck to be a kayaker on Romney Pond.
re: #197 darthstar
Go run over those poor people, gran-pa!
Image: enhanced-buzz-17438-1342298227-12.jpg
I'm sorry, but seeing Mitt at the helm reminds me too much of Al Czervik driving his yacht around in Caddyshack.
| 219 |
darthstar Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:22:34pm |
Andrew Sullivan pitches in on the Romney-Bain problem...and he's not exactly gentle...
[Link: andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com...]
I'm getting the feeling that Romney thinks he is above the level of accountability required in a presidential candidate or even in an average ethical businessman. He seems genuinely offended to be directly challenged with facts - which he still won't address or rebut in detail. So he simply huffs and puffs and uses words like "disgusting" for a perfectly valid charge in the big boy world of presidential politics.
This does not seem to me to be like a candidate ready for prime time.
| 220 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:23:33pm |
re: #211 goddamnedfrank
I'm really hoping they get "accidentally" leaked. The Romney ragegasm would be epic.
Then twenty years later we find out it was Megan McCain who released them using her scary ninja skills.
she would never do that, she'd see that as a betrayal of her father's trust. And such a betrayal is something she, like all of her line, would rather die than do.
| 221 |
Archangelus Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:25:16pm |
Hot damn, that was as spot on as it was brilliant!
About damn time too...
| 222 |
darthstar Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:25:36pm |
re: #213 Big Joe
He thought she had less baggage. It turns out she just had cheaper luggage.
Not after her shopping spree she didn't. She needed fancy bags to carry her 150,000 dollar wardrobe she got from the campaign.
| 223 |
darthstar Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:30:12pm |
Speaking of climate change...
[Link: www.dailykos.com...]
| 224 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:30:50pm |
re: #208 palomino
But, due to our electoral college, those 12 states are the only ones that matter...no other states are in play. People like you and me (in CA, IL, TX, etc) don't really cast votes that matter at the prez level because our states are so solidly blue or red.
A system that encourages candidates to spend more time in 10 states than the other 40 combined seems off kilter. And a system that encourages candidates to spend more time in Miami than NYC, LA, Chicago, Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, Seattle, San Fran, etc. COMBINED is just downright ass-backwards.
For most of American history, that wasn't one of the Electoral College's results. But now political polarization means that there are far fewer battleground states, and fewer swing voters, too.
| 225 |
freetoken Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:31:53pm |
re: #223 darthstar
And when the warm weather goes away...?
| 226 |
darthstar Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:32:20pm |
Love Wonkette's tongue-in-cheek tone sometimes...
This Ad Is Not The Apology Mitt Romney Had Hoped For bit.ly/LhFbGw— Wonkette (@Wonkette) July 14, 2012
| 227 |
uncah91 Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:34:44pm |
re: #219 darthstar
From an earlier blog post by Sullivan.
"Romney basically said what was the most convenient for his self-interest at every juncture - and finally all the contradictions and changing stories caught up with him. "
Also, yesterday's series of posts was brutal.
| 229 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:38:01pm |
re: #220 Dark_Falcon
she would never do that, she'd see that as a betrayal of her father's trust. And such a betrayal is something she, like all of her line, would rather die than do.
She's a sexy ninja. All that shit you think you know about her is part of her sexy ninja game plan.
| 230 |
uncah91 Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:47:05pm |
As for the WaPo fact checker, her is Sullivan's takedown, which is fairly complete.
"But according to Kessler, this must be a lie and therefore a felony. How does Romney attend board meetings of Bain acquisitions, sign six filings on Bain acquisitions, get a six figure salary as an executive, list himself as sole owner and CEO with the SEC in these years, and insist he was not "involved in the operations of any Bain Capital entity in any way"? Bain went further and stated that in the period involved Romney had "absolutely no involvement with the management or investment activities of the firm or with any of its portfolio companies." All of this is a spectacular contradiction - and yet Kessler, defending, one suspects, his own reputation, refuses to give an inch.
Is Kessler that much in the Romney tank? Or can he not read his own column?"
Is Kessler that much in the Romney tank? Or can he not read his own column?
| 231 |
freetoken Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:50:45pm |
Religious fervor in Brazil:
At least 1 million in evangelical march in Brazil
[...]
Organizers have described the march as the "largest Christian event in the world," saying they expected at least 5 million people to rally behind 15 sound trucks and attend religious music shows likely to last well into the night.
Humans are scary animals.
| 232 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:53:33pm |
re: #231 freetoken
Religious fervor in Brazil:
At least 1 million in evangelical march in Brazil
Humans are scary animals.
If they were truly marching "to promote peace and harmony" as the caption says, there is nothing scary about that. I think it is just that in America we have come to associate evangelicals with radical homophobia, bigotry, sexism, anti-feminism and anti-science.
| 233 |
darthstar Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:55:19pm |
Okay...time to prep some food to deliiver to a friend tomorrow who's recovering from brain surgery...have a good day all.
| 234 |
austin_blue Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:59:17pm |
The fun thing about this is that all the Mittens Crew is talking about is Bain. Wait until the next ad, which will emphasize the off-shore accounts and his tax records.
Or, as Charles Blow notes and Gail Collins digs:
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
| 235 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jul 14, 2012 2:59:39pm |
re: #191 palomino
As far as Obama's admin crossing a line in attacking Romney, we should get a few things straight.
First, we all know politics ain't beanbag, especially at the presidential level. Examples: The Willie Horton ad that basically called Dukakis an accessory to rape. The attacks on Bill Clinton that he was a traitor for protesting the War while studying abroad in college. Kerry, a highly decorated soldier, being swift boated and labeled a traitor. And Obama being accused of "paling around with terrorists" (by Palin) AND not loving or understanding America (by Romney himself) AND being an un-American socialist (by virtually everyone in the GOP).
Should Obama just sit back and play nice when no one else is? It is in fact true that if Romney lied on SEC docs, he's susceptible to a perjury charge. And clearly Bain engaged in conduct Romney wants to dissociate himself from. It would be campaign malpractice not to jump all over this.
Good points. Dirty politics is dirty, I'm a realist about that but there's a larger context to all those examples you laid out. You aren't really supposed to believe everything somebody puts in a political ad. They aren't reliable sources of information. Same with beer and detergent ads. The purpose is to create an image, not impart valuable information.
| 236 |
Greup Sat, Jul 14, 2012 3:21:08pm |
Isnt this classic Rove tactics. Identify the strongest point of your political opponent and attack him there and turn that strong point to a liability. If Romney cant use his business credentials- what is he? Almost nothing.
| 237 |
Romantic Heretic Sat, Jul 14, 2012 3:27:25pm |
You should hear Mitt sing Woody Guthrie.
This land is my land.
This land is my land.
/
| 238 |
Romantic Heretic Sat, Jul 14, 2012 3:28:28pm |
re: #6 Expand Your Ground
Is "personal responsiblity" not a cardinal conservative virtue?
They tend to blame God a lot.
| 239 |
palomino Sat, Jul 14, 2012 4:10:16pm |
re: #235 Killgore Trout
Good points. Dirty politics is dirty, I'm a realist about that but there's a larger context to all those examples you laid out. You aren't really supposed to believe everything somebody puts in a political ad. They aren't reliable sources of information. Same with beer and detergent ads. The purpose is to create an image, not impart valuable information.
No question about that. You want to define your opponent as early as possible, creating an image of him for voters. And with 4 months to go, it's still pretty early.
| 240 |
sagehen Sat, Jul 14, 2012 4:17:04pm |
re: #234 austin_blue
The fun thing about this is that all the Mittens Crew is talking about is Bain. Wait until the next ad, which will emphasize the off-shore accounts and his tax records.
Or, as Charles Blow notes and Gail Collins digs:
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
best line from Collins piece:
The Democrats suggested all this could be cleared up if Romney would release his back tax returns. There are actually very few things in the universe that the Democrats do not think would be made better if Romney released his tax returns.
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