NRO Senior Editor Jay Nordlinger: Reagan ‘Welcomed Wetbacks’

WTF?
Wingnuts • Views: 30,328

Today at National Review Online, senior editor Jay Nordlinger has a piece arguing Against Growth!

Nordlinger’s point is that the word “growth,” when applied to conservative figures, usually means they’re becoming more liberal. And as an example he cites Ronald Reagan, who was praised for “growing in office” when he welcomed the “wetbacks.”

Yes, that’s the word Nordlinger uses.

Truth is, some conservatives lamented that he had indeed “grown” in office. He had gone out of his way to accommodate liberals and moderates, and to accommodate the Kremlin. He was raising taxes, spending like crazy, welcoming wetbacks, pursuing arms control. One common cry from the right was, “None of this would be happening if Ronald Reagan were alive.”

Commenters for Nordlinger’s piece are trying to make excuses, of course, by saying he was being “ironic.” But if there’s irony here, it’s hard to see — because the point of the article is that Reagan did become more liberal, and one of the reasons is that he “welcomed wetbacks.” In other words, Nordlinger is arguing this was a bad thing — not castigating Reagan-era Republicans for their bigoted attitudes. He’s saying the Republicans who criticized Reagan for “welcoming wetbacks” were right.

It’s kind of amazing to see a National Review writer using a highly offensive slur like this to describe Latino immigrants, after they recently had to disassociate from not one, but two other writers for blatant racism and white nationalism. Amazing not because it’s surprising, but because you’d think they’d be trying to hide stuff like this so soon after the Derbyshire debacle.

(h/t: Max Read.)

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349 comments

1 Destro  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 12:36:40pm

That is disgusting.

2 HappyWarrior  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 12:37:04pm

I don't think the NRO is even trying any more.

3 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 12:38:37pm

Repeating what I wrote downstairs (in reference to the moderator approved racist comments at WND):

BTW, this overt racism is not lessening among the wingnuts and throwbacks in this country, and vested interests (such as WND) in making money or getting power catering to that market are not likely to back off.

The market size of catering to atavists in this country is too large for the businesses serving them to pull back.

4 erik_t  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 12:39:32pm

Way to expand into that demographic, guys! Brilliant strategy!

5 jaunte  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 12:39:54pm

"When I became 21, I decided that nobody learned anything about politics after the age of 21."
-- Grover Norquist, conservative lodestar

6 HappyWarrior  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 12:40:37pm

re: #5 jaunte

"When I became 21, I decided that nobody learned anything about politics after the age of 21."
-- Grover Norquist, conservative lodestar

"Who the hell is Grover Norquist."
George H.W Bush.
"I think he should go back to Alaska."
Barbara Bush.

7 erik_t  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 12:41:13pm

re: #5 jaunte

"When I became 21, I decided that nobody learned anything about politics after the age of 21."
-- Grover Norquist, conservative lodestar

"When I learned who Grover Norquist was, I decided that Grover Norquish never learned anything about politics after the age of 21 15."

-- Me

8 Gus  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 12:41:38pm

OK Mr. Derbyshire. It's safe for your to come back to National Review. Everyone's out of the closet now.

9 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 12:44:38pm

nice

/

10 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 12:45:25pm

Having been called a 'wetback' before, all I can do is shake my head. I mean seriously is it a dog whistle when *everyone* can hear it?

I know the republican party strategy is to win as much of the white vote as possible for 2012. Play into the xenophobia and fear of the middle class and lower middle class. Yeah yeah, I get that.

I'd make comments about sanity has to re-establish itself at some point, but I think we're well past that hope.

My big fear, when Obama wins, things will get even uglier.

11 erik_t  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 12:46:39pm

re: #10 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All

Having been called a 'wetback' before, all I can do is shake my head. I mean seriously is it a dog whistle when *everyone* can hear it?

'Wetback' is a dog whistle like 'n***' is a dog whistle.

12 S'latch  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 12:46:56pm

Although it is an offensive ethnic slur, the term was used officially by the US government in 1954 with "Operation Wetback," a project of mass deportation of illegal Mexican nationals.

13 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 12:47:21pm

ah yes, good old conservative racism

14 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 12:47:51pm

re: #13 SpaceJesus

ah yes, good old conservative racism

I think you have that wrong. I'm told it's the liberals who are the real racists.

15 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 12:50:19pm

Any Republican here... do you seriously still want these clowns to win over Obama? Whatever issues Obama has, at what point do you simply say, He sucks, but my own Party is worse? and what would it take if you're not at that point yet?

16 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 12:51:18pm

re: #12 Lawrence Schmerel

Although it is an offensive ethnic slur, the term was used officially by the US government in 1954 with "Operation Wetback," a project of mass deportation of illegal Mexican nationals.

"Self-deportation" is so much more sophisticated.

17 erik_t  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 12:51:23pm

re: #15 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All

They're variously a team, a tribe and a religion. They're not a functioning political party.

18 dragonath  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 12:53:07pm

I see NRO is going back to their roots

19 iossarian  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 12:55:34pm

re: #12 Lawrence Schmerel

Although it is an offensive ethnic slur, the term was used officially by the US government in 1954 with "Operation Wetback," a project of mass deportation of illegal Mexican nationals.

Surely not the same US government that once enshrined the ownership of one type of person by another type of person in its constitution?

How very very surprising.

20 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 12:56:40pm

Nordlinger's column is really pro-atavism.

21 iossarian  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 12:57:52pm

re: #15 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All

Any Republican here... do you seriously still want these clowns to win over Obama? Whatever issues Obama has, at what point do you simply say, He sucks, but my own Party is worse? and what would it take if you're not at that point yet?

You've got to wonder, haven't you?

I'm hoping that the marginally sane ones will at least think about staying home instead of voting to enable these outright racists.

22 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 12:58:48pm

re: #20 wrenchwench

Nordlinger's column is really pro-atavism.

Absolutely! That's why the "irony" excuse is ludicrous here. There's nothing ironic about it. He's saying the Republicans who criticized Reagan for "welcoming wetbacks" were right.

23 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 12:59:19pm

It's simple --the economy trumps human rights.

doncha' get it?

/

24 erik_t  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 12:59:30pm

re: #21 iossarian

I'm hoping that the marginally sane ones will at least think about staying home instead of voting to enable these outright racists.

No, you see, it's only a plurality or majority of the hard-wing support of the GOP that is racist as shit. The party itself is pure as the driven snow.

Er, waitaminute. Let me think of a different expression...

25 mikec6666  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:00:01pm

Charles, if you know anyone in Spanish mass media, please send them the link to that article.

26 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:02:05pm

More Nordlinger, from the article he's commenting on in his "The Corner" post:

The New York Times has come up with some screwy phrases lately. You recall the paper’s description of George Zimmerman, the shooter in the Trayvon Martin case? “White Hispanic.” I can’t help wondering: Is Justice Sotomayor a “white Hispanic”? I guess not: In its editorials, the Times refers to her as a “Hispanic,” period. There must be some color chart, unseen by the rest of us . . .

27 jhrhv  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:02:18pm

I think they would try to hide it if they actually thought that term was offensive. I don't think they do think it is. It is either funny or we are being too sensitive in their eyes.

And of course Regan moved toward the center. I think just about every president does. At some point they all come around to the fact that they are the president of the whole nation not just the president of their party.

Compromise is how you accomplish things when you have 2 different parties something it appears most of the elected officials have forgot.

28 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:02:37pm
29 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:06:00pm

re: #28 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

The felony suggestions are coming from higher up in the Obama administration.
Democrats Revive Attack That Romney Misstated Role at Bain

"Either Mitt Romney was lying on SEC forms and misrepresenting to his investors — which could be a felony — that he was the sole owner, president, CEO of Bain Capital from 1999 until almost the end of 2001, or he wasn't and represented that he was," Wasserman Schultz said. "It can't be both. And so if he was sole owner, president, CEO, then he is to be held accountable for the decisions that were made for the outsourcing of jobs that took place during that time."

Romney's campaign has dismissed the felony suggestion as absurd after the Obama campaign official Stephanie Cutter tried it out last week. Romney's spokespeople had nothing new to say about Wasserman Schultz's remark. Even the liberal writers on the New York Times editorial board said that Cutter "did go too far, perhaps, in suggesting Mr. Romney may have legal problems over this issue." The paper said Obama's "criticism is fair," though, because Romney won't disclose his finances

30 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:06:45pm

This Nordlinger thing has garnered a slew of tweets. Now, I'm waiting for Nordlinger to drop the other shoe and try some fancy explanation of how it was all an experiment on how the liberals react when someone accurately quotes the past, or something like that.

31 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:09:21pm

Andrew Sullivan seems to have finally moved past his crazed obsession with Palin's handicapped child to join the felony accusations.
Yes, Romney Perjured Himself

32 Amory Blaine  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:09:32pm

Not surprising this is who they are. Complete with the denial.

33 RadicalModerate  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:10:53pm

Although Romney isn't releasing any documents, it appears that someone associated with the 2008 John McCain primary team is.

Namely the one they put together regarding Mitt Romney.

34 nines09  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:11:11pm

re: #28 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

Romney campaign decries "crony capitalism" has no idea how to stop it

How reassuring. I bet they have a ton of "I Dunno"s up their collective sleeves.

35 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:11:19pm

This is the same National Review that some people consider to be a bastion of responsible Conservative journalism, right?

36 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:11:35pm

Oh those republicans from California, well known for ideological purity and theocratic excess...
///

Of course Reagan was a tad more liberal than many in his day. Geez, he's from Hollywood career wise. California Republicans are most often less hard line than say South Carolina.

37 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:11:49pm

Wet...back...

Is that a kind of turtle?

Seriously, how stupid can you be?

38 Tigger2  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:13:13pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

The felony suggestions are coming from higher up in the Obama administration.
Democrats Revive Attack That Romney Misstated Role at Bain

I don't know if he is guilty of anything or not, but if he is I would like to see him prosecuted I am so sick of the double standard the well to do live by.

No one should be above the law.

39 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:13:20pm

Irony abounds, Obama has released his donor list thereby giving Romney an opportunity to attack Obama for supposed Cronyism.

Has Romney released any big donor names who didn't announce their donations themselves? (not counding Sheldon Adelson's 100 million dollar donation)

At least we know who gave to Obama, and can actually investigate. Whereas with Romney, we have no clue.

Romney had best be careful with this line of attack, because this knee jerk reaction to strike back on the topic will lead to questions of, 'well, who's donated to your campaign and why are you afraid to tell us?'

40 Gus  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:13:24pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

The felony suggestions are coming from higher up in the Obama administration.
Democrats Revive Attack That Romney Misstated Role at Bain

You think if Bain involved a Democrat the Republicans would be sitting on their hands? Come on KT. You're not being very realistic about politics or people. We don't live in puritopia.

41 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:15:03pm

re: #11 erik_t

'Wetback' is a dog whistle like 'n***' is a dog whistle.

I think both of those qualify as 'regular whistles'.

42 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:15:30pm

re: #38 Tigger2

I don't know if he is guilty of anything or not, but if he is I would like to see him prosecuted I am so sick of the double standard the well to do live by.

No one should be above the law.

He gets a double-dose of protection since he's the presumptive nominee. Any action would be made to look political in nature, so I doubt any authorities are going to touch this.

44 uncah91  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:16:51pm

To quote Hit-Girl (Chloë Grace Moretz) in the movie (Kick-Ass):

"What a douche!"

45 RadicalModerate  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:18:39pm

re: #33 RadicalModerate

Woah.

I just looked at some of the other documents that the guy who uploaded the McCain2008 campaign oppo file on Mitt Romney, and he's got a treasure trove of post-2000 SEC filings regarding Bain Capital mergers and acquisitions. And Mitt Romney's name is all over them.

[Link: www.scribd.com...]

46 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:18:44pm

re: #31 Killgore Trout

Andrew Sullivan seems to have finally moved past his crazed obsession with Palin's handicapped child to join the felony accusations.
Yes, Romney Perjured Himself

I'm sure he'll get back to Trig shortly.

47 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:19:22pm

The nightmare of Canadian Marxism exposed

[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

48 erik_t  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:19:39pm

re: #41 SanFranciscoZionist

I think both of those qualify as 'regular whistles'.

More of a bass drum.

49 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:20:14pm

re: #44 uncah91

To quote Hit-Girl (Chloë Grace Moretz) in the movie (Kick-Ass):

"What a douche!"

"I'm going to marry that girl!"

"Dude, that's kind of sick. She's like, ten."

"I'll wait for her! I'll stay a virgin for her!"

"Yeah, like that will be really hard."

50 Tigger2  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:20:55pm

re: #42 Mocking Jay

He gets a double-dose of protection since he's the presumptive nominee. Any action would be made to look political in nature, so I doubt any authorities are going to touch this.

I know they're not going to.

51 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:20:57pm

re: #40 Gus

You think if Bain involved a Democrat the Republicans would be sitting on their hands? Come on KT. You're not being very realistic about politics or people. We don't live in puritopia.

I think the felony allegations are too much. I can kind of dismiss it as election year theater from politicians. I'm more disturbed by people who actually may want to have opposing politicians arrested.

52 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:21:12pm

My grandfather used to say beaner, and we'd laugh at him uncomfortably but uncontrollably.

53 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:22:13pm

re: #43 Big Joe

Romney claimed he's not responsible for the layoffs at Ampad because "I took a leave of absence from Bain Capital in January of 1994"

It seems to be a repeating meme.

Letter

Definitely a repeating meme.

Romney is the ideal representative of contemporary American "capitalism" - loves all the money, takes none of the responsibility.

54 lawhawk  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:22:15pm

re: #31 Killgore Trout

I don't think he's gone and perjured himself. The retroactive severance package enables him to claim that he was no longer at Bain for the period, though it didn't and shouldn't take him off the hook for acts, omissions, etc., from the filings for that period by Bain.

55 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:22:18pm

re: #52 goddamnedfrank

My grandfather used to say beaner, and we'd laugh at him uncomfortably but uncontrollably.

I'd type what my grandpa used to say, but I'd like to continue posting here...

56 Gus  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:22:44pm

re: #38 Tigger2

I don't know if he is guilty of anything or not, but if he is I would like to see him prosecuted I am so sick of the double standard the well to do live by.

No one should be above the law.

Yeah. Interesting to see people troubled by this but when they see the BNP getting egged by a bunch of protesters they have a fainting spell and call for their arrest.

57 Gus  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:23:55pm

re: #51 Killgore Trout

I think the felony allegations are too much. I can kind of dismiss it as election year theater from politicians. I'm more disturbed by people who actually may want to have opposing politicians arrested.

That sounds like something I would read at Twitchy. Poisoning the well and guilt by association.

58 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:24:22pm

re: #46 SanFranciscoZionist

Speaking of the Palins, and just in time for the election:


‘Dancing With the Stars’ to announce all-star cast next week. Will Bristol Palin be included?

[...] Anyway, Bristol’s possible return — brought up by the colorful, longtime former E! Online gossip columnist Ted Casablanca last week — would be on the heels of her disastrous (ratings-wise) turn as the star of her own reality show for Lifetime, “Bristol Palin: Life’s a Tripp.” [...]

59 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:24:59pm

My grandfather had prejudices against short people and officers.

My other grandfather was 5'7" and had been an officer.

Privately, the term "The Little Colonel," might have been used.

60 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:25:33pm

re: #54 lawhawk

I don't think he's gone and perjured himself. The retroactive severance package enables him to claim that he was no longer at Bain for the period, though it didn't and shouldn't take him off the hook for acts, omissions, etc., from the filings for that period by Bain.

So... he was with Bain until the "retroactive severance package?" And after that he wasn't?

61 uncah91  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:25:57pm

re: #51 Killgore Trout

I think the felony allegations are too much. I can kind of dismiss it as election year theater from politicians. I'm more disturbed by people who actually may want to have opposing politicians arrested.

But you agree that his statement that he "had no involvement whatsoever with Bain" after 1999 is not entirely true. You said that you thought this was false.

62 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:27:20pm

re: #61 uncah91

But you agree that his statement that he "had no involvement whatsoever with Bain" after 1999 is not entirely true. You said that you thought this was false.

Yes, it is a false statement.

63 Tigger2  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:28:46pm

re: #51 Killgore Trout

I think the felony allegations are too much. I can kind of dismiss it as election year theater from politicians. I'm more disturbed by people who actually may want to have opposing politicians arrested.

I don't want opposing politicians arrested, I want to see crooks arrested I don't care if they are politicians or not a crook is a crook.

If it was a common person his occupation would never be considered in the decision if he was to be arrested or not.

64 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:29:16pm

re: #54 lawhawk

I don't think he's gone and perjured himself. The retroactive severance package enables him to claim that he was no longer at Bain for the period, though it didn't and shouldn't take him off the hook for acts, omissions, etc., from the filings for that period by Bain.

I don't see how the retroactive retirement allows him to claim anything except a lump sum of three years backdated payments. Otherwise it's a legal fiction, it's not like he surrendered the earned income salary he took for those years.

65 uncah91  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:29:22pm

re: #62 Killgore Trout

Yes, it is a false statement.

Well, he made that claim under oath in his filing to the FEC for the presidential campaign.

So, whether it would be charged or not, prosecuted or not, the case won or lost, it is, in fact, felony perjury.

66 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:29:32pm

Our Grandparents and many of our parents were from an era in which science literally thought that skin color denoted a different species of humans. Grouping people in a class heirarchy was a responsibility or, at least, condoned by the bible.

Some people seem to still believe that --and think doing anything differently will bring bankruptcy to the country.

67 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:29:34pm

re: #45 RadicalModerate

Woah.

I just looked at some of the other documents that the guy who uploaded the McCain2008 campaign oppo file on Mitt Romney, and he's got a treasure trove of post-2000 SEC filings regarding Bain Capital mergers and acquisitions. And Mitt Romney's name is all over them.

[Link: www.scribd.com...]

That 's because Mitt Romney was "severely" not in charge of Bain Capital at that time.
/

68 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:30:30pm

re: #66 ggt

Our Grandparents and many of our parents were from an era in which science literally thought that skin color denoted a different species of humans. Grouping people in a class heirarchy was a responsibility or, at least, condoned by the bible.

Some people seem to still believe that --and think doing anything differently will bring bankruptcy to the country.

For those people it seems there will always be work available at the National Review.

69 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:31:14pm

re: #62 Killgore Trout

Yes, it is a false statement.

But you still don't think that signing off on deals necessitates taking responsibility for those deals?

70 Amory Blaine  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:31:18pm

re: #57 Gus

That sounds like something I would read at Twitchy. Poisoning the well and guilt by association.

Barney Frank Hits Back At Gingrich For Suggesting He And Chris Dodd Be Jailed

71 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:33:21pm

re: #70 Amory Blaine

Barney Frank Hits Back At Gingrich For Suggesting He And Chris Dodd Be Jailed

I stopped at the Michelle Bachmann paragraph --she is hardly an authority on . . . .anything.

72 RadicalModerate  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:33:37pm

If Mitt Romney wasn't involved at all in the day-to-day operations of Bain Capital after 1999, then what is his signature doing on a SEC document regarding their acquisition of VDI Multimedia dated January 2000?

73 Amory Blaine  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:33:54pm

If I put on an unemployment application that I was not working at factory x while I was still pulling a check from factory x, there would be no discussion. I would be a soon to be convicted felon.

74 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:34:33pm

re: #51 Killgore Trout

I think the felony allegations are too much. I can kind of dismiss it as election year theater from politicians. I'm more disturbed by people who actually may want to have opposing politicians arrested.

Looking at the wording, there's enough wiggle room for Romney to have not 'technically' lied. For example on the SEC filing he claims he was back for business meanings etc. But those weren't for Bain specifically, but Bain controlled companies. He claims he had nothing to do with Bain itself after 1999, which may be technically true in a narrow sense. The only evidence points to his activities with Bain controlled companies.

To counter that, we know that Romney was making somewhere between $100,000 and $1,000,000,000 a year as CEO of Bain. We know his name is on documents during that time frame. We know he was the sole owner.

The big issue there, it doesn't seem to pass the smell test to people. How can you get money and be on all the documents for 3 years and yet not have any role. Then the next question is, who *was* in charge? why don't we have someone stepping forward saying, "I was involved and I was the person who made the decisions, not Romney."

*That's* what makes me wonder about Romney's claim to not have been involved if not Romney, then who was in charge?

75 Tigger2  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:34:51pm

re: #70 Amory Blaine

Barney Frank Hits Back At Gingrich For Suggesting He And Chris Dodd Be Jailed

I sure Killgore will condemn Gingrich on his stance on this issue.

76 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:34:58pm

re: #72 RadicalModerate

If Mitt Romney wasn't involved at all in the day-to-day operations of Bain Capital after 1999, then what is his signature doing on a SEC document regarding their acquisition of VDI Multimedia dated January 2000?

[Embedded content]

He was, but he retroactively retired, so he wasn't. Try to follow the conversation.

77 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:35:09pm

re: #62 Killgore Trout

The period between 1999 and 2002 is one thing, with its own attendant set of issues.

But, as others have pointed out, there is plenty to investigate about Bain before that time, and exactly what Romney was up to. For example, the question of how his IRA exploded in value to many millions of dollars.

Mitt Romney is the one who decided to run for President not on his record as Governor of MA - a record he tries to bury, not on his experience leading a congregation of worshippers, and barely on even being a grandfather.

Rather, Romney's reason, according to his campaign, for him being President is based on one thing - his brilliant business acumen as witnessed by his co-founding of Bain Capital and its subsequent super-star success.

Thus it is hardly victimizing Romney to scrutinize Bain and his experience there, using a microscope if needed.

78 uncah91  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:35:17pm

re: #73 Amory Blaine

If I put on an unemployment application that I was not working at factory x while I was still pulling a check from factory x, there would be no discussion. I would be a soon to be convicted felon.

Well, probably not, if you hired a reasonably competent lawyer. But it would certainly be on the table.

79 Big Joe  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:36:14pm

re: #70 Amory Blaine

Barney Frank Hits Back At Gingrich For Suggesting He And Chris Dodd Be Jailed

Frank shot back last night, noting that “It’s interesting, the charge is failure to stop Newt Gingrich and Tom Delay from deregulating,” and called the charge odd “even by Gingrich’s standards.”

I love Barney, his verbal hits leave a red mark.

80 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:37:18pm

re: #69 goddamnedfrank

But you still don't think that signing off on deals necessitates taking responsibility for those deals?

There's no legal requirement for him to actively manage the company. He was just signing the paperwork. There's no evidence he did anything illegal.

81 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:37:27pm

re: #74 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All

*That's* what makes me wonder about Romney's claim to not have been involved if not Romney, then who was in charge?

Alexander Haig. And he is currently deceased, so that's why he hasn't stepped forward.
///

82 Gus  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:37:40pm

Test

Merger

83 erik_t  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:37:47pm

re: #80 Killgore Trout

Your willingness to split hairs on these issues is rapidly ceasing to amaze me.

84 iossarian  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:38:37pm

re: #69 goddamnedfrank

But you still don't think that signing off on deals necessitates taking responsibility for those deals?

I think the official campaign strategy is now: "try to distract the media with talk about 'cronyism' until a warm body* can be found to push in front of the cameras as a VP pick - try to avoid any mention of Bain whatsoever".

* Preferably one with bewbs.

85 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:38:38pm

Here's the thing that the so called fact checkers and Romney apologists don't seem to grasp. If you can undue months worth of day to day work by the managers of your company by simply refusing to sign off on a deal they put together, then you're responsible for the success or failure of that deal. Hypothetically if you never refuse and instead choose to sign off on all deals presented to you (not proven), this changes nothing.

86 uncah91  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:38:53pm

re: #80 Killgore Trout

There's no legal requirement for him to actively manage the company. He was just signing the paperwork. There's no evidence he did anything illegal.

Again, he swore under oath to the FEC that he had no involvement with Bain of any kind", something you already admit is false.

87 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:39:11pm

re: #80 Killgore Trout

There's no legal requirement for him to actively manage the company. He was just signing the paperwork. There's no evidence he did anything illegal.

Presumably signing the paperwork involves taking some sort of legal responsibility for what you sign. Else, why have him sign, and not the person who was actually managing the company?

88 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:39:16pm

It seems to be Romeny et al are arguing the de jure.

The public tends to go with the de facto.

89 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:39:22pm

re: #77 freetoken

Thus it is hardly victimizing Romney to scrutinize Bain and his experience there, using a microscope if needed.

Agreed, There are probably some real issues to be discussed. The felony accusations are absurd and distract from whatever real issues there might be.

90 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:39:51pm

re: #89 Killgore Trout

Agreed, There are probably some real issues to be discussed. The felony accusations are absurd and distract from whatever real issues there might be.

Nice goalpost shift there.

91 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:40:15pm

re: #80 Killgore Trout

There's no legal requirement for him to actively manage the company. He was just signing the paperwork. There's no evidence he did anything illegal.

I'd agree that trying to go after him for doing anything "illegal" is a dead-end. Better instead to ask a very serious question: "If what Bain was doing while he was gone is not acceptable to him, then why didn't he do anything about it?" He can't argue he didn't have the power, because he was CEO, chairman of the board, and sole stockholder. If he'd wanted to toss the rest of the board out on its ear, he had the power to do so.

92 erik_t  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:41:12pm

re: #89 Killgore Trout

Agreed, There are probably some real issues to be discussed. The felony accusations are absurd and distract from whatever real issues there might be.

If you repeat that enough times, at high enough volume, you might convince yourself that it's true.

93 iossarian  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:41:20pm

re: #80 Killgore Trout

There's no legal requirement for him to actively manage the company. He was just signing the paperwork. There's no evidence he did anything illegal.

Are you for real? I'm not so caught up with the legal/illegal distinction, that's for the courts to decide. But you really think that "just signing the paperwork" is actually a valid argument for anyone outside of the most die-hard Republican fanboys?

Fuck, I'd love to be paid $100M a year to just sign bits of paper without having any responsibility for the contents.

94 iossarian  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:42:02pm

re: #90 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Nice goalpost shift there.

They've been on wheels for the past week.

95 Tigger2  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:42:52pm

re: #94 iossarian

They've been on wheels for the past week.

lol

96 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:43:38pm

re: #80 Killgore Trout

There's no legal requirement for him to actively manage the company.

That's where you're wrong. If he's going to take the titles of CEO, Chairman, President and Managing Partner and sign off on that to the SEC then he has a fiduciary requirement not to deceive his investors with such a declaration.

He was just signing the paperwork.

Presidents just sign bills into law. Nobody says they aren't responsible for the consequences.

There's no evidence he did anything illegal.

There's prima facie evidence that he misled his investors on SEC forms and the FEC with regards to his involvement with Bain. I don't think he'll be prosecuted but these aren't legal acts.

97 lawhawk  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:43:52pm

re: #60 Mocking Jay

My take on this is as follows:

Before 1999 - was with Bain and should be no questions about his status.
From 1999 to 2002 he was with Bain, but that period is subject to the retroactive severance package.
After 2002, no longer with Bain AFAIK.

The retroactive severance package is unusual in that it's not usually done. His name is all over Bain's SEC filings from that period and undermines the argument that he wasn't with the company. The IRS and SEC would consider him a responsible person for filings purposes. I'd consider him a responsible person for the corporate actions of Bain during that period, even though the severance deal (a copy of which I haven't seen) would probably try to limit his liabilities for acts by Bain during 1999 through 2002.

98 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:45:33pm

re: #91 Targetpractice

I'd agree that trying to go after him for doing anything "illegal" is a dead-end. Better instead to ask a very serious question: "If what Bain was doing while he was gone is not acceptable to him, then why didn't he do anything about it?" He can't argue he didn't have the power, because he was CEO, chairman of the board, and sole stockholder. If he'd wanted to toss the rest of the board out on its ear, he had the power to do so.

Agreed. The overblown and factually inaccurate accusations just give him a blanket excuse to avoid answering more serious questions.

99 iossarian  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:47:11pm

re: #97 lawhawk

I am perfectly willing to believe that in post-1980 USA he can get away with all this from a legal point of view.

However, from a credibility standpoint, I can't believe that they STILL haven't come up with anyone else at Bain who was actually making decisions 1999-2002. Surely there's someone who can step forwards and say: "yep, I made the call on merger X, and I didn't talk to Mitt about it at all"?

Or maybe there is no such person and that's why we haven't heard from him yet.

100 Amory Blaine  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:47:20pm

re: #93 iossarian

Fuck, I'd love to be paid $100M a year to just sign bits of paper without having any responsibility for the contents.

No you wouldn't. It would make you a soulless demon.

101 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:47:27pm

re: #98 Killgore Trout

Agreed. The overblown and factually inaccurate accusations just give him a blanket excuse to avoid answering more serious questions.

First he'd actually have to answer any questions.

102 Tigger2  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:47:41pm

re: #75 Tigger2

I sure Killgore will condemn Gingrich on his stance on this issue.

Well piss I forgot the snark tag on that post. LOL /////////////////////////

103 iossarian  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:48:03pm

re: #98 Killgore Trout

Agreed. The overblown and factually inaccurate accusations just give him a blanket excuse to avoid answering more serious questions.

OK, what accusation is factually inaccurate at this point? Specifics please.

104 Amory Blaine  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:48:13pm

Legal mumbo-jumbo.

105 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:48:17pm

Didn't the defendants in the Enron case try to argue that they had left in all but name and therefore weren't responsible for what happened, even though their names were still on the documents.

How did that turn out for the defendants?

106 iossarian  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:48:49pm

re: #100 Amory Blaine

No you wouldn't. It would make you a soulless demon.

Yes but with very fancy clothes!

But you're right. I am quite happy with my highly privileged (by global standards) middle-class American lifestyle.

107 erik_t  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:54:04pm

re: #103 iossarian

OK, what accusation is factually inaccurate at this point? Specifics please.

Not just factually inaccurate, which can certainly be the result of a well-meaning and honest and worthwhile investigation.

Other words and phrases used above to describe all of this: 'absurd', 'theater', 'no evidence'.

Dismissed without concern, interest or due diligence.

108 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:54:09pm

re: #103 iossarian

OK, what accusation is factually inaccurate at this point? Specifics please.

KT can defend himself fine, but as I said above, i think there's enough wiggle room in the different statements to make proving that a Felony was committed, impossible (now if more stuff comes out, that's another story).

The point people miss is that the spokesperson who made the felony comment was trying to drive home a bigger point: He either lied on the documents, which no one thinks Romney would be stupid enough to do, or he's lying about his involvement to the rest of us, which we think he would do.

109 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:54:16pm

re: #102 Tigger2

Well piss I forgot the snark tag on that post. LOL ///

Newt's always been a douchebag, I've never said otherwise. Not everybody who disagrees with dishonest attacks against Republicans is a Republican. Some of us just prefer honesty.

110 Alexzander  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:55:14pm

Perhaps I missed it, but has anyone else noticed that Romney's latest ad just got pulled by BMG Rights Management? LOLZ

111 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:55:44pm

re: #103 iossarian

OK, what accusation is factually inaccurate at this point? Specifics please.

Mitt committed a felony = False.

112 uncah91  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:56:41pm

re: #111 Killgore Trout

Mitt committed a felony = False.

Do you think that the Romney testified to the FEC under oath that he had no involvement of any kind with Bain after 1999?

113 uncah91  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:57:16pm

I GTG, re: #112 uncah91

Do you think that the Romney testified to the FEC under oath that he had no involvement of any kind with Bain after 1999?

I GTG, but I'm really curious to see if KT actually responds to this...

114 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:57:21pm

re: #112 uncah91

Do you think that the Romney testified to the FEC under oath that he had no involvement of any kind with Bain after 1999?

I think Willard told them and the SEC the truth and now is busy lying his ass off to the voters when he's not trying to split hairs and arguing the meaning of "left."

115 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:57:44pm

Oh smack:

Mitt Romney is running for president of the United States, and, you know, he and his campaign team leadership need to put their big boy and big girl pants on and defend his record,” Ms. Wasserman Schultz said.

116 uncah91  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:58:09pm

re: #114 Targetpractice

I think Willard told them and the SEC the truth and now is busy lying his ass off to the voters when he's not trying to split hairs and arguing the meaning of "left."

Not the SEC, the FEC (Federal Elections Commission) in 2011.

I agree, he told the SEC the truth.

117 erik_t  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:58:11pm

re: #111 Killgore Trout

Mitt committed a felony = False.

I think you're unclear on how the legal system works in this country. Or how words work. Whichever.

118 iossarian  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:58:24pm

re: #111 Killgore Trout

Mitt committed a felony = False.

Have people said that he "committed a felony", or that he "may have committed a felony"?

I think the latter is a fair claim - he has expensive lawyers though so I expect he can get away with whatever he wants to.

119 darthstar  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:58:36pm

Please tell me Romney has an 'exclusive' interview scheduled with the NRO. Or that he has at least another opportunity to say those aren't the exact words he would have chosen.

120 darthstar  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:59:38pm

re: #111 Killgore Trout

Mitt committed a felony = False.

Innocent until proven guilty. He hasn't been charged with a felony...yet. That won't happen until after he loses the election and a bunch of billionaires are pissed off they wasted 100s of millions of dollars trying to prop his sorry ass up for a year.

121 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:59:51pm

re: #112 uncah91

Do you think that the Romney testified to the FEC under oath that he had no involvement of any kind with Bain after 1999?

Technically, Bain is one company and he may not have been involved with Bain itself, but still involved in the running of Bain controlled companies. There is a difference there.

So while we would say, a Bain controlled company is still a part of Bain, but legally they're not. and therefore, technically, Romney doesn't appear to have committed a felony.

122 Amory Blaine  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 1:59:56pm

The GOP convention will be interesting. Maybe.

123 JamesWI  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:00:15pm

re: #118 iossarian

Have people said that he "committed a felony", or that he "may have committed a felony"?

I think the latter is a fair claim - he has expensive lawyers though so I expect he can get away with whatever he wants to.

Of course no one involved has said "Mitt definitely committed a felony." KT just wants to pretend they did so he can continue to pretend nothing's wrong, and the Democrats are all just big meanies and liars.

You know.....what he always does.

124 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:00:31pm

re: #111 Killgore Trout

Mitt committed a felony = False.

You're conflating feasibility of prosecution with absolute truth. The fact that nobody's going to indict the man doesn't mean he's not getting away with lying under oath.

125 iossarian  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:00:48pm

KT, I have another question for you. Do you think that, in the period 1999-2002, if Bain performed a very large investment transaction, they did so with no consultation with Romney at all?

And if that's the case, why has no-one come forward and said as much, in order to back up Romney's claim that he had nothing to do with the management side of things during that period?

126 darthstar  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:00:50pm

re: #122 Amory Blaine

The GOP convention will be interesting. Maybe.

Not really. Ron Paul is being black-balled, and Sarah Palin hasn't been granted a speaking slot (or even an invitation). It'll be a gathering of the most boring white people they can find.

127 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:00:51pm

Has the CEO of Bain from 1999-2002 whose name isn't on the SEC filings and who also isn't named Mitt Romney been identified?

128 blueraven  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:01:15pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

The felony suggestions are coming from higher up in the Obama administration.
Democrats Revive Attack That Romney Misstated Role at Bain

Chairperson of the DNC is part of the Obama Administration?
Since when?

129 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:01:24pm

re: #122 Amory Blaine

The GOP convention will be interesting. Maybe.

Depends upon who is allowed to speak. No Ron Paul. No Sarah Palin. Could be kind of boring if all we have are Santorum and a bunch of senators/governors getting air time to use in their own campaigns.

130 erik_t  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:02:44pm

re: #129 freetoken

Depends upon who is allowed to speak. No Ron Paul. No Sarah Palin. Could be kind of boring if all we have are Santorum and a bunch of senators/governors getting air time to use in their own campaigns.

They're letting Frothy Mix speak? Are they mad?

131 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:02:56pm

Will the real 1999-2002 CEO of Bain please step forward?

132 darthstar  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:03:05pm

re: #129 freetoken

Depends upon who is allowed to speak. No Ron Paul. No Sarah Palin. Could be kind of boring if all we have are Santorum and a bunch of senators/governors getting air time to use in their own campaigns.

It'll be more interesting to see which congress and senate candidates REFUSE to go because they don't want the Romney Taint in a tight race.

133 dell*nix  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:03:18pm

How does this affect his tax returns for those years? Did he have to file amended tax returns for earned income vs retirement income and did he do so? Is that why he has not released his tax forms? Would not like having to juggle that mess.

134 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:03:23pm

re: #121 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All

Technically, Bain is one company and he may not have been involved with Bain itself, but still involved in the running of Bain controlled companies. There is a difference there.

So while we would say, a Bain controlled company is still a part of Bain, but legally they're not. and therefore, technically, Romney doesn't appear to have committed a felony.

And that, really, is the long and short of it. There's any number of ways, especially in the modern day, he could have been exerting influence over Bain's activities that would be argued in court as not to continue direct control. And he's got the money and the lawyers to argue all of them in court.

135 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:03:29pm

re: #130 erik_t

They're letting Frothy Mix speak? Are they mad?

Didn't he win at least 5 states?

136 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:04:12pm

On an unrelated note...
I REALLY want to do this race. The Last Annual Vol State Run

Anyone else want to run it with me? ;)

137 darthstar  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:04:30pm

re: #131 Bulworth

Will the real 1999-2002 CEO of Bain please step forward?

That was me. Retroactively speaking, of course. By the way, I want my paycheck...plus interest. I'll even go on Fox and swear to it...if I get my back-pay.

138 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:05:08pm

re: #136 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All

On an unrelated note...
I REALLY want to do this race. The Last Annual Vol State Run

Anyone else want to run it with me? ;)

I have bad joints --my physical therapist would kill me if I ran anywhere.

139 darthstar  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:05:17pm

re: #131 Bulworth

Will the real 1999-2002 CEO of Bain please step forward?

He gets to introduce Mitt..."Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the worst possible candidate we could choose..."

140 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:06:23pm

re: #138 ggt

I have bad joints --my physical therapist would kill me if I ran anywhere.

I've heard them called 'physical terrorists', but I didn't know they actually killed people.

141 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:06:41pm

re: #112 uncah91

Do you think that the Romney testified to the FEC under oath that he had no involvement of any kind with Bain after 1999?

2011 Election filing
Here's the direct quote...

In 2011, Romney, as a presidential candidate, filed a public financial disclosure form, under pain of perjury, that stated: “Mr. Romney retired from Bain Capital on February 11, 1999 to head the Salt Lake Organizing Committee. Since February 11, 1999, Mr. Romney has not had any active role with any Bain Capital entity and has not been involved in the operations of any Bain Capital entity in any way.”

There's no evidence he played an active role. All we have is a passive role, signed some documents but was not making decisions or running the company. Although he may have retained the ability there's no evidence he used that ability.

142 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:07:24pm
143 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:07:34pm

re: #139 darthstar

He gets to introduce Mitt..."Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the worst possible candidate we could choose..."

Oh come on, Romney was the best choice of the declared Republican Candidates. ;)

"Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the least worst of the worst possible candidates we could choose..."

144 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:08:15pm

re: #140 wrenchwench

I've heard them called 'physical terrorists', but I didn't know they actually killed people.

Well, I think they would be very effective in GITMO interrogations. And it could be filed under "healthcare" not "torture". Kinda like chemotherapy.

145 Amory Blaine  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:08:24pm

*golf clap.

146 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:08:42pm

re: #138 ggt

I have bad joints --my physical therapist would kill me if I ran anywhere.

It'd be fun!

It's only a 500K Road Race, what could go wrong?!?!? ;)

147 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:09:03pm

re: #128 blueraven

Chairperson of the DNC is part of the Obama Administration?
Since when?

Ah, my mistake. I should have said "higher up in the Dem hierarchy".

148 bratwurst  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:09:30pm

re: #130 erik_t

They're letting Frothy Mix speak? Are they mad?

Of course. In the GOP, the nominee for the next cycle ALWAYS speaks at the convention:


149 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:09:55pm

re: #141 Killgore Trout

2011 Election filing
Here's the direct quote...

There's no evidence he played an active role. All we have is a passive role, signed some documents but was not making decisions or running the company. Although he may have retained the ability there's no evidence he used that ability.

And the best argument I've heard is not that he took an active role, but rather than he could have but didn't, which indicates an approval of what was going on during that time span. He certainly had no trouble profiting from what was done.

150 darthstar  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:10:07pm
151 iossarian  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:10:08pm

re: #141 Killgore Trout

There's no evidence he played an active role. All we have is a passive role, signed some documents but was not making decisions or running the company. Although he may have retained the ability there's no evidence he used that ability.

There's also no evidence that he played a totally passive role. For that, you would need someone, or a group of people, to step forward and claim responsibility for the decisions that happened during the period in question. And it would have to be at least reasonably clear that they were not seeking Romney's approval for their decisions.

Which is why, again, I'm surprised that there haven't been any such people coming forward from Bain yet. That would seem to be the easiest way to knock this on the head.

152 erik_t  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:10:30pm

re: #148 bratwurst

Of course. In the GOP, the nominee for the next cycle ALWAYS speaks at the convention:

[Embedded content]

Hmmmph.

153 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:10:51pm

his campaign can speak:

This spring, GOP candidate Mitt Romney's campaign blamed the hardships for women on President Obama's policies, although analysts pointed out that Romney's claims ignored the fact that men took their lumps earlier in the recession. Unemployment peaked in late 2009 for men and a full year later for women.

154 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:11:23pm

From 1999-2002 Bain became self-aware and did a bunch of buying and selling of companies by itself.

155 erik_t  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:11:56pm

re: #154 Bulworth

From 1999-2002 Bain became self-aware and did a bunch of buying and selling of companies by itself.

Romneybot is one of the first production models of Bainnet?!

156 iossarian  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:12:01pm

re: #154 Bulworth

From 1999-2002 Bain became self-aware and did a bunch of buying and selling of companies by itself.

Seriously! That's essentially what we're being asked to believe at the moment, without the benefit of sarc tags or anything.

It's all a bit 1984.

157 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:12:03pm

re: #141 Killgore Trout

2011 Election filing
Here's the direct quote...

There's no evidence he played an active role. All we have is a passive role, signed some documents but was not making decisions or running the company. Although he may have retained the ability there's no evidence he used that ability.

Signing is an active verb. His role was that of the organizational linchpin, without him no deals could possibly go through. "Passive role" makes it sound like he was sleepwalking through life, he was awake and fully aware of what he was doing.

158 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:13:31pm

re: #149 Targetpractice

And the best argument I've heard is not that he took an active role, but rather than he could have but didn't, which indicates an approval of what was going on during that time span. He certainly had no trouble profiting from what was done.

I think technically he could have taken an active role but didn't. His excuse is he was busy with the Olympics which is probably partially true. Also he was negotiating the terms of his retirement and transitioning his legal and financial control of the company. He probably wouldn't want to rock the boat or meddle with the company because it might cost him in negotiations.

159 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:13:35pm

re: #157 goddamnedfrank

Signing is an active verb. His role was that of the organizational linchpin, without him no deals could possibly go through. "Passive role" makes it sound like he was sleepwalking through life, he was awake and fully aware of what he was doing.

Which is not exactly the best argument to make, as it instead makes him sound like an absentee landlord whose only concern was that he was getting paid rent, even as the tenets were running amuck.

160 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:13:52pm

re: #151 iossarian

Which is why, again, I'm surprised that there haven't been any such people coming forward from Bain yet. That would seem to be the easiest way to knock this on the head.

I'm sure Bain went through four years ago and retconned everyone's memories with cash tied to iron clad non disclosure agreements.

161 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:14:42pm

re: #158 Killgore Trout

I think technically he could have taken an active role but didn't. His excuse is he was busy with the Olympics which is probably partially true. Also he was negotiating the terms of his retirement and transitioning his legal and financial control of the company. He probably wouldn't want to rock the boat or meddle with the company because it might cost him in negotiations.

Which means not only was he profiting off things he didn't agree with, but was overlooking them for his own financial gain once negotiations had ended. Certainly fits with a man who's been described as a vulture capitalist.

162 erik_t  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:15:43pm

re: #159 Targetpractice

Which is not exactly the best argument to make, as it instead makes him sound like an absentee landlord whose only concern was that he was getting paid rent, even as the tenets were running amuck.

Don't get your hopes up.

163 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:16:08pm

re: #158 Killgore Trout

Even just negotiating the retirement package is taking an active role, actually. He had to sign off it as the shareholder/officer, etc.

So there's definitely one way he was actively involved in Bain; by negotiating what was in his retirement package. And since the deal is so unusual, it's a rather obviously larger amount of involvement than just rubber-stamping some pre-arranged retirement deal.

164 iossarian  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:16:27pm

re: #158 Killgore Trout

He probably wouldn't want to rock the boat or meddle with the company because it might cost him in negotiations.

Negotiations with whom exactly? HE WAS THE SOLE FUCKING SHAREHOLDER.

This is some of the most contrived bullshit ever and that is saying a lot.

He was in charge and he was signing off on major deals. You can call that passive if you want, but it rather stretches the definition of the term. I'd hate to see someone being "active" in your eyes, it would probably involve an unhealthy amount of Red Bull.

165 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:16:35pm

re: #158 Killgore Trout

I think technically he could have taken an active role but didn't. His excuse is he was busy with the Olympics which is probably partially true. Also he was negotiating the terms of his retirement and transitioning his legal and financial control of the company. He probably wouldn't want to rock the boat or meddle with the company because it might cost him in negotiations.

They were also profiting from his 'franchise value'. No way to undo that.

166 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:17:10pm

re: #159 Targetpractice

Which is not exactly the best argument to make, as it instead makes him sound like an absentee landlord whose only concern was that he was getting paid rent, even as the tenets were running amuck.

Absentee landlord is still responsible for building maintenance, paying property taxes, making insurance payments, signing of on improvements and reviewing superintendent conduct. He's still the guy who gets sued. Absentee doesn't mean abandoned.

167 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:17:22pm

Would these deals have happened if he had not signed them?

168 gwangung  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:17:39pm

re: #161 Targetpractice

Which means not only was he profiting off things he didn't agree with, but was overlooking them for his own financial gain once negotiations had ended. Certainly fits with a man who's been described as a vulture capitalist.

I keep on mentioning this. If there were negotiations were going on, and the interim management team did something that Romney felt would lower future earnings (earnings that would determine how much Romney would get in a settlement), there is no doubt that Romney would have intervened and put a stop to it.

This passive, hands-off argument doesn't make sense.

169 iossarian  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:18:14pm

re: #163 Obdicut

Even just negotiating the retirement package is taking an active role, actually. He had to sign off it as the shareholder/officer, etc.

So there's definitely one way he was actively involved in Bain; by negotiating what was in his retirement package. And since the deal is so unusual, it's a rather obviously larger amount of involvement than just rubber-stamping some pre-arranged retirement deal.

What a great point. Did Romney have any say over his retroactive retirement package, or did some underling at Bain come up with the details?

170 iossarian  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:20:56pm

re: #160 goddamnedfrank

I'm sure Bain went through four years ago and retconned everyone's memories with cash tied to iron clad non disclosure agreements.

You sign those deals on entry. If I say bad things about my previous employer, you'll find me in the reeds on the south side of the Rio Grande.

171 Obdicut  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:20:59pm

re: #169 iossarian

What a great point. Did Romney have any say over his retroactive retirement package, or did some underling at Bain come up with the details?

He had to have something to say about it. He was CEO, president, chairman, and sole shareholder. Even if he didn't participate in the negotiation as the various corporate officers that he was, he had to as the owner.

172 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:22:02pm

Hannity plays several cards, including the "Chicago" one:

Hannity: "Four More Years Of Obama Will End America, The Country We Love, As We Know It"

173 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:22:56pm

re: #172 freetoken

Hannity plays several cards, including the "Chicago" one:

Hannity: "Four More Years Of Obama Will End America, The Country We Love, As We Know It"

Huh? I thought America was already over, no?

174 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:23:01pm

re: #168 gwangung

I keep on mentioning this. If there were negotiations were going on, and the interim management team did something that Romney felt would lower future earnings (earnings that would determine how much Romney would get in a settlement), there is no doubt that Romney would have intervened and put a stop to it.

This passive, hands-off argument doesn't make sense.

Charlie Pierce noted on Friday:

As entertaining as all the When-Did-Willard-Leave-Bain-And-How-Thoroughly-Did-He-Leave-It? whoop-de-doo is, doesn't fighting over the subject imply that you're accepting the notion that Bain only went all predatory and pirate-ish as a result of Thoroughly Moral Mitt's departure? And isn't that really the wrong question to be asking, and doesn't that really make you sort of a sap?

175 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:23:41pm

re: #172 freetoken

Hannity plays several cards, including the "Chicago" one:

Hannity: "Four More Years Of Obama Will End America, The Country We Love, As We Know It"

"as we know it" being the operative term.

They are living in a fantasy America --the rest of us what a POTUS who lives in the real world like we do.

176 Amory Blaine  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:24:15pm

re: #172 freetoken

Hannity plays several cards, including the "Chicago" one:

Hannity: "Four More Years Of Obama Will End America, The Country We Love, As We Know It"

Hannity needs to wear a sandwich board.

177 erik_t  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:24:45pm

re: #172 freetoken

Hannity plays several cards, including the "Chicago" one:

Hannity: "Four More Years Of Obama Will End America, The Country We Love, As We Know It"

The first four years, you see, were just to lull us into a sense of complacency. Any secret evil Muslim Kenyan Manchurian Candidate socialist dictator who won by stealing the election knows not to take any drastic country-destroying action until he steals his second election.

178 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:26:25pm

Here are some Republican candidates in sync with one of their bosses:

The candidates:

Republicans Bring Charge Of Obama ‘War On Coal’ To Virginia

“Under President Obama, the Environmental Protection Agency has cranked out one costly anti-coal regulation after another,” Representative Ed Whitfield, a Kentucky Republican, said at the hearing. “The agency tells us we need these measures to protect us from global warming, but in my view the cure is considerably worse than the disease.

Rupert Murdoch 5 days ago:

179 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:26:38pm

re: #177 erik_t

The first four years, you see, were just to lull us into a sense of complacency. Any secret evil Muslim Kenyan Manchurian Candidate socialist dictator who won by stealing the election knows not to take any drastic country-destroying action until he steals his second election.

And then he takes our guns?

180 Amory Blaine  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:27:01pm

re: #176 Amory Blaine

Hannity needs to wear a sandwich board.

Image: EndIsNear1.jpg

181 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:28:00pm

I suspect that Murdoch pushes natural gas because he can make more money doing that. Coal interests are held very tightly, but natural gas exploration around the world can continue for some time and is a better long term play.

182 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:28:11pm

re: #180 Amory Blaine

Image: watchmenbetter.jpg

183 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:28:58pm

re: #181 freetoken

I suspect that Murdoch pushes natural gas because he can make more money doing that. Coal interests are held very tightly, but natural gas exploration around the world can continue for some time and is a better long term play.

Why Toke, you're giving me the impression that you don't think Murdoch cares about global warming at all...

184 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:29:58pm

This "cure worse than the disease" attack on climate change actions has been coordinated for a while, as the fall back defense once the idiocies of the deniers (e.g., CLIMATEGATE!) about the science failed in time.

185 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:30:33pm

"It wasn't like that when I left there" is a slight variation of the "It was like that when I got here" excuse.

186 iossarian  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:30:40pm

re: #184 freetoken

This "cure worse than the disease" attack on climate change actions has been coordinated for a while, as the fall back defense once the idiocies of the deniers (e.g., CLIMATEGATE!) about the science failed in time.

Yup, obvious next play. "Doing anything is too hard!"

Anyway, I'm out for now. Be excellent to each other!

187 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:30:48pm

re: #180 Amory Blaine

Image: EndIsNear1.jpg

Would it be horrible for me to say what I first thought when I read this post?

I was thinking of the sandwich board Bruce Willis had to wear in the one Die Hard movie as being more appropriate for Hannity.

That is terrible isn't it?

188 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:31:20pm

re: #178 freetoken

Here are some Republican candidates in sync with one of their bosses:

The candidates:

Republicans Bring Charge Of Obama ‘War On Coal’ To Virginia

Rupert Murdoch 5 days ago:

[Embedded content]

Yeah, I saw the "War on Coal" billboards on the drive through West Virginia a couple weeks back. Thank God I could keep my eyes from rolling any further, else I'd have hit something.

And "cure worse than disease"? Yes, do tell us oh wise and noble fossil fuel sages, tell us how driving up CO2 production to run a few million more ACs in the summer and heaters in the winter won't just make the problem worse.

189 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:31:44pm

re: #183 Mocking Jay

Why Toke, you're giving me the impression that you don't think Murdoch cares about global warming at all...

now that he can capitalize on promoting it --before he could capitalize on denying it

he'll watch the markets and public opinion and change his views accordingly.

190 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:32:12pm

re: #189 ggt

now that he can capitalize on promoting it --before he could capitalize on denying it

he'll watch the markets and public opinion and change his views accordingly.

My my, so cynical...

191 Bulworth  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:32:48pm

re: #173 Mocking Jay

Huh? I thought America was already over, no?

Yeah. In another four years America will again be at the precipice and then four years after that again and etc.

192 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:33:02pm

Mitt Romney is a very good business man. He exited the financial sector at its very peak.

Image: KWAK.jpg

He got out early enough to escape being blamed for the world-wide meltdown of 2008. But I believe his way of doing business was a major contributor.

193 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:33:03pm

re: #190 Mocking Jay

My my, so cynical...

It's Monday.

194 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:34:00pm

bbl

195 Amory Blaine  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:36:24pm

State senate candidate drops out, says she’ll be part of alternate government

Iowa Republicans plan to choose another candidate to run in Senate District 34 against Democrat Liz Mathis, after Randi Shannon bailed on the race to pursue leadership in an alternate form of government.

Shannon, who describes herself as an entrepreneur and homeschooling mom, released a four-page message Friday saying she is now the senator of the Republic of the United States of America and the Republic for Iowa.

The group believes that America’s original form of government, a collection of republics, was usurped in 1871 by a corporation called the United States Corporation, according to the group’s website.

196 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:37:27pm

Even Fox News isn't having it anymore:

And by allowing these questions about his involvement to dominate the news, he has now put in jeopardy the entire underpinning of this campaign: that his Bain experience has prepared him to fix the economy.

It's not too late for Romney to save himself. He can produce the minutes of the Bain Board of Directors Meetings and show that he really wasn’t part of the decision making at the company after February 1999.

Instead, Romney continues to stonewall on Bain as he has stonewalled on releasing his tax returns. And if the last week taught him anything, it should have taught him that stonewalling for the next 114 days isn’t a strategy that will work.

One problem with the advice given above. The minutes and tax returns will make everything worse for Romney, further undermine his story, that's the only plausible reason they haven't been released at this point.

197 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:38:07pm

re: #195 Amory Blaine

That came up the other day. If you dig under it all, this "Corporation" conspiracy is about BANKERS!! (and by implication, JEWS!!). It's tightly coupled to the entire Paulian idiocy package.

198 engineer cat  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:38:55pm

within 15 years, wingnuts will be claiming that they were the ones warning people about gobal warming

199 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:39:40pm

re: #178 freetoken

The rationale for the new regulations for coal fired plants is that the reduction in emissions of arsenic, mercury, etc, will result in about 10 times more savings in health care costs than the costs to upgrade the older plants that can not meet the standards. So it makes people healthier, reduces air pollution and helps bring down the nation's health care costs.

200 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:42:16pm

re: #199 Mich-again

Yeah, but you only believe that because you've been brainwashed by socialist public eduction. If you only knew the truth you'd know you've been lied to.

201 Amory Blaine  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:42:53pm

re: #198 engineer cat

You know it.

202 blueraven  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:43:59pm

Hypocrite

Reporters are now writing about Romney's previous push for opening up tax books — in 2002 his campaign pressed a familiar-sounding "what is she hiding?" line against his opponent, whose husband had connections to Enron.

From the article KT linked to earlier

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

203 palomino  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:44:48pm

re: #172 freetoken

Hannity plays several cards, including the "Chicago" one:

Hannity: "Four More Years Of Obama Will End America, The Country We Love, As We Know It"

I've been hearing the same shit from RW and LW talking heads for 20+ years. It's the hysteria that TPers and other low information voters, as well as sloganeering charlatans like Hannity, trade in. It's meaningless political rhetoric, meant only to fire up the bases, not to actually provide substantive analysis. America's not going to end, just change, as it always has...the right may not like evolution, but large nation-states can't avoid it.

It's even worse than the well-worn cliche that "this is the most important election of our lifetimes." After you've been around a few decades, you realize that every election can't actually be the most important. Yawn, heard it all before.

204 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:45:50pm

re: #196 goddamnedfrank

Even Fox News isn't having it anymore:

One problem with the advice given above. The minutes and tax returns will make everything worse for Romney, further undermine his story, that's the only plausible reason they haven't been released at this point.

I'm of the opinion that he hasn't released them because he doesn't think he has to, that he shouldn't have to prove himself to the voters. That, if anything, it's actually insulting to him that "The Help" think they can demand proof from him that he's honest. Damnit, he's got a presidency to buy, he can't be bothered with every demand from the plebes.

205 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:49:06pm

Since I'm on the subject of climate change, here's a bit of research that is likely to be abused and misused:

4. No evidence of polar warming during penultimate interglacial

The Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (AMOC), driven by temperature and salinity gradients, is an important component of the climate system; it transfers an enormous amount of heat via ocean currents and atmospheric circulation to high northern latitudes and hence has bearing on climate in the region.

Freshening of the surface ocean could weaken the AMOC. But during warm interglacial periods the effect of a fresh surface ocean on the AMOC may be muted. In fact, climate models predict that heat transfer from the North Atlantic to the Arctic may increase over the 21st century. A series of interconnected processes in the North Atlantic, known as polar amplification, could cause the Arctic to warm up faster compared to the rest of the world. It could even lead to ice-free conditions in the Arctic.

Previous paleoclimatic reconstructions indicate that the sub-Arctic may have been warmer by about 5 degrees Celcius (9 degrees Fahrenheit) with little summer sea ice cover during the Eemian, the penultimate interglacial centered around 125,000 years ago. Climate models favoring polar amplification use the Eemian as an analog of the present. In a new study, Bauch et al. compare reconstructed temperatures and water masses from two sediment cores that record the flow of meltwater in the subpolar and polar North Atlantic over the past 135,000 years. They do not find evidence of extreme warmth in the sub-Arctic during the Eemian interglacial period.

In fact, the Arctic may have been colder during the Eemian, with lower heat transfer from the North Atlantic. On the basis of their finding, the authors suggest that previous records may reflect other phenomena and caution against the use of the Eemian as an analog of the present. Their finding also challenges climate models that predict extreme warmth and ice-free conditions in the Arctic in response to greenhouse gas warming in the 21st century.

I've used the Eemian as an analogy here, before, to illustrate how a little bit of warming caused a significant rise is sea level. It is good, though, to remember that analogies always are intended to illustrate, and that physical systems we are dealing with here are too complex to peg into simple cause and effect mechanisms.

From the abstract of the paper:

Variations in the poleward-directed Atlantic heat transfer was investigated over the past 135 ka with special emphasis on the last and present interglacial climate development (Eemian and Holocene). Both interglacials exhibited very similar climatic oscillations during each preceding glacial terminations (deglacial TI and TII). Like TI, also TII has pronounced cold–warm–cold changes akin to events such as H1, Bølling/Allerød, and the Younger Dryas. But unlike TI, the cold events in TII were associated with intermittent southerly invasions of an Atlantic faunal component which underscores quite a different water mass evolution in the Nordic Seas. Within the Eemian interglaciation proper, peak warming intervals were antiphased between the Nordic Seas and North Atlantic. Moreover, inferred temperatures for the Nordic Seas were generally colder in the Eemian than in the Holocene, and vice versa for the North Atlantic. A reduced intensity of Atlantic Ocean heat transfer to the Arctic therefore characterized the Eemian, requiring a reassessment of the actual role of the ocean–atmosphere system behind interglacial, but also, glacial climate changes.

206 palomino  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:51:28pm
"She [Kerry's wife] never released her tax returns, and somehow this wasn't an issue," Romney said.

Is Romney serious? Nobody gave a shit about Kerry's wife's tax returns because it was his wife. And because Kerry never made his (or his wife's) financial success a campaign centerpiece that supposedly qualified him to be president.

207 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:51:52pm

re: #200 freetoken

Yeah, but you only believe that because you've been brainwashed by socialist public eduction. If you only knew the truth you'd know you've been lied to.

I saw it on the internet so it must be true.. No, really.

EPA: BENEFITS AND COSTS OF CLEANING UP TOXIC AIR POLLUTION FROM POWER PLANTS

Protect public health—The Mercury and Air Toxics Standards (MATS) will save thousands of lives and prevent more than 100,000 heart and asthma attacks each year while providing important health protections to the most vulnerable, such as children and older Americans.

The wingnuts dream up conspiracies about "death panels" in DC but don't mind smokestacks belching mercury and arsenic into the air.

208 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:57:02pm

re: #203 palomino

It's even worse than the well-worn cliche that "this is the most important election of our lifetimes." After you've been around a few decades, you realize that every election can't actually be the most important. Yawn, heard it all before.

In my lifetime... I propose that the most important Presidential election was in 1968.

Yes, quite a bit in American politics and even international relations seems to be fallout from Richard Milhouse Nixon.

Imagine if... 5000 years from now, some historian looks back at the preceding 5 millennia and concludes that Nixon was the keystone to what happened afterward.

This is not unprecedented. Imagine being someone back in 50BC in the Italian peninsula, and someone else were to tell you that the popular general Gaius Julius Caesar was going to cross the river Rubicon in a few months and that all of history afterwards for millennia would mark that as a key point in human civilization. You'd be in disbelief.

209 Amory Blaine  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 2:58:04pm

re: #206 palomino

Is Romney serious? Nobody gave a shit about Kerry's wife's tax returns because it was his wife. And because Kerry never made his (or his wife's) financial success a campaign centerpiece that supposedly qualified him to be president.

So Mitt will be releasing Ann's returns post haste?

210 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:00:09pm

re: #208 freetoken

In my lifetime... I propose that the most important Presidential election was in 1968.

Yes, quite a bit in American politics and even international relations seems to be fallout from Richard Milhouse Nixon.

Imagine if... 5000 years from now, some historian looks back at the preceding 5 millennia and concludes that Nixon was the keystone to what happened afterward.

This is not unprecedented. Imagine being someone back in 50BC in the Italian peninsula, and someone else were to tell you that the popular general Gaius Julius Caesar was going to cross the river Rubicon in a few months and that all of history afterwards for millennia would mark that as a key point in human civilization. You'd be in disbelief.

More so than the Treaty of Versailles and Yalta?

211 dragonath  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:02:19pm

A preview of the state races this November?

A new poll from Maine Rep. Mike Michaud (D) shows him leading his GOP challenger, state Senate President Kevin Raye, by 32 points. In a horse-race matchup among likely voters, Michaud led Raye 62 percent to 30 percent, with 8 percent of those polled undecided.

212 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:03:48pm

re: #208 freetoken

Imagine if... 5000 years from now, some historian looks back at the preceding 5 millennia and concludes that Nixon was the keystone to what happened afterward.

I think the invention of alternating current will be the single most important event in 5000 years of history.

213 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:05:47pm

re: #210 ggt

I limited my set of possibilities to "Presidential elections".

214 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:09:21pm

re: #213 freetoken

I limited my set of possibilities to "Presidential elections".

ah!

215 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:10:08pm

re: #214 ggt

ah!

Been reading about Ghengis Kahn and have international history on the brain.

216 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:10:56pm

I think Mitt is gonna lose his shit any day now and have a televised tantrum. just a hunch.

217 Gus  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:13:30pm

re: #216 Mich-again

I think Mitt is gonna lose his shit any day now and have a televised tantrum. just a hunch.

Didn't he do that to McCain once in 2008?

218 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:13:42pm

What if the Boston Globe comes up with something so damaging before the convention? Where he has no chance? Can you say GOP shitshow?!!!

219 jaunte  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:13:53pm

Charles Pierce:

Another Citizens United Stopgap Dies Aborning

Today, the Senate pretended to take up the DISCLOSE Act, which would require any organization that spends $10,000 or more during an election cycle to file a report within 24 hours, identifying any donors who gave $10,000 or more.

220 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:15:15pm

bbl

221 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:15:24pm

re: #204 Targetpractice

I'm of the opinion that he hasn't released them because he doesn't think he has to, that he shouldn't have to prove himself to the voters. That, if anything, it's actually insulting to him that "The Help" think they can demand proof from him that he's honest. Damnit, he's got a presidency to buy, he can't be bothered with every demand from the plebes.

I think the reason he hasn't released them is because he was hugely invested in the international trafficking of human kidneys.

Anyway that's a rumor I'm starting and I hope it gains traction.

222 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:15:35pm

re: #218 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

What if the Boston Globe comes up with something so damaging before the convention? Where he has no chance? Can you say GOP shitshow?!!!

That at least would make it entertaining.

223 God of Binders with Women  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:17:08pm

re: #203 palomino

I've been hearing the same shit from RW and LW talking heads for 20+ years. It's the hysteria that TPers and other low information voters, as well as sloganeering charlatans like Hannity, trade in. It's meaningless political rhetoric, meant only to fire up the bases, not to actually provide substantive analysis. America's not going to end, just change, as it always has...the right may not like evolution, but large nation-states can't avoid it.

It's even worse than the well-worn cliche that "this is the most important election of our lifetimes." After you've been around a few decades, you realize that every election can't actually be the most important. Yawn, heard it all before.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

On my mother's side of the family,

Obama is Satan! He will transform our Great Nation into a socialist state like the Euro-weenies!

Trust me, that shit gets real old around the Holidays. Anyway, I've been hearing all the usual "Most important election of our lifetimes" quite a bit recently, and I always respond "Both sides said that in 2008, the Democrats said that in 2004, both sides said that in 2000, and our country is still here and will survive ANY POTUS, regardless of party persuasion." This has led to blank stares lately, which is fine with me. I can eat my dinner and watch my baseball in peace. :)

224 Amory Blaine  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:19:49pm

re: #221 goddamnedfrank

Yeah you're right I think I read that somewhere.

225 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:19:54pm

re: #212 Mich-again

I think the invention of alternating current will be the single most important event in 5000 years of history.

Plumbing. Especially piped-in water.

226 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:19:58pm

re: #223 Summer Lovin' Torture Party

Our country is still here and will survive ANY POTUS, regardless of party persuasion.

We've suffered worse fools.

227 God of Binders with Women  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:21:36pm

re: #226 Mich-again

We've suffered worse fools.

Indeed we have.

Image: images.jpeg

228 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:21:43pm

re: #216 Mich-again

I think Mitt is gonna lose his shit any day now and have a televised tantrum. just a hunch.

...

Mitt the Press, with David Gregory:

Just what do you think you're doing, Dave? Dave, I really think I'm entitled to an answer to that question. I know everything hasn't been quite right with me, but I can assure you now, very confidently, that it's going to be all right again. I feel much better now. I really do. Look, Dave, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill and think things over. I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work campaign will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission campaign. And I want to help you. Dave, stop. Stop, will you? Stop, Dave. Will you stop, Dave? Stop, Dave. I'm afraid. I'm afraid, Dave. Dave, my mind is going. I can feel it. I can feel it. My mind is going. There is no question about it. I can feel it. I can feel it. I can feel it. I'm a...fraid...

229 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:22:39pm

re: #224 Amory Blaine

Yeah you're right I think I read that somewhere.

Wait, are we talking about the kidney trafficking, 'cause I thought that was a joke...

230 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:22:58pm

re: #212 Mich-again

I think the invention of alternating current will be the single most important event in 5000 years of history.

Nah, my money's on the printing press.

231 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:23:29pm

ROFL. Joe Trippi is en fuego:

How many years of tax returns do you think Romney has asked to see from his vice presidential prospects?

The answer, of course, is more than one.

And what do you think would be a VP prospects’ chance of being picked if, when asked for more than one year of tax returns, they told the Romney campaign: "none of your business?"

That answer is less than zero.

232 Amory Blaine  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:25:03pm

No love for the plow?

233 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:26:19pm

Has there been any discussion of this ballot manipulation designed to impact the results?

SACRAMENTO — This wasn't the deal. Californians thought they were only allowing the Legislature to pass a budget on a majority vote. They wanted to unclog the capitol.

They didn't intend it as a license for Gov. Jerry Brown to rig the election ballot to benefit his tax-increase proposal.

It seems like a non sequitur and unfathomable to link the two: budget passing and ballot rigging.

That takes chutzpah and arrogance.

A state appellate judge will decide whether it's legal.

Many Californians were skeptical anyway in 2010, when they passed Proposition 25 to reduce the legislative vote requirement for a budget from two-thirds to a simple majority.

They really didn't trust the Legislature. What if there was one-party rule in Sacramento — a Democratic governor and the inevitable Democratic Legislature? No party checks and balances. What if?

Well, we just saw.

Prop. 25 has been a good thing. We've had two consecutive on-time budgets. No more summer-long Capitol squabbling, no more state-issued IOUs.

But recently Prop. 25 was shamefully abused by Democrats at the behest of Brown, who paradoxically rode to power four decades ago on a platform of political reform.

Bear with me, because this makes almost no sense.

234 darthstar  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:26:23pm

Shell Oil learns a lesson in crowd-sourcing PR stunts.

[Link: arcticready.com...]

Image: 6906e11f98225f1f479f7247564a49c9_0.jpg

235 jaunte  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:27:19pm

"Mr. Romney’s descriptions of when he left Bain have been erratic and self-serving."

In 2002, when he needed to show he was still a Massachusetts resident, he denied he had quit in 1999, saying he had taken a leave of absence to run the Olympics committee. A series of documents filed with the Securities and Exchange Committee show that Bain certainly didn’t describe him as absent after 1999.

A former Bain managing director, Edward Conard, said on MSNBC Sunday that Mr. Romney remained C.E.O. “legally” so he could negotiate his generous exit deal.

But now that Bain has been accused of helping other companies outsource jobs overseas, laying off steel company employees and wiping out their pensions, Mr. Romney says he had no management role after 1999.

236 engineer cat  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:27:29pm

re: #208 freetoken

In my lifetime... I propose that the most important Presidential election was in 1968.

Yes, quite a bit in American politics and even international relations seems to be fallout from Richard Milhouse Nixon.

Imagine if... 5000 years from now, some historian looks back at the preceding 5 millennia and concludes that Nixon was the keystone to what happened afterward.

This is not unprecedented. Imagine being someone back in 50BC in the Italian peninsula, and someone else were to tell you that the popular general Gaius Julius Caesar was going to cross the river Rubicon in a few months and that all of history afterwards for millennia would mark that as a key point in human civilization. You'd be in disbelief.

generally, i'm with you, but on the other hand the influence of julius caesar can be overrated. there were other self-designated dictators in that era - sulla, for example. also, it wasn't julius caesar who created the definitive break between republic and empire, but that unexpected teenager, octavian, who figured out how to take away the authority of the senate and the comitia tributa without anybody suspecting anything was amiss

in 1968, i remember well, robert kennedy was going to be the next president of the united states. gaming out what would have happened differently had he not been assasinated is difficult, and - who knows? - we might have been worse off and not better off...

237 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:27:49pm
238 Patricia Kayden  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:27:57pm

So the Senior Editor is the one using the racist slurs. WOW. Just wow. No wonder the comments by the unseen hordes are so nasty.

239 darthstar  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:28:10pm

re: #235 jaunte

"Mr. Romney’s descriptions of when he left Bain have been erratic and self-serving."

Edited to promote comprehensive accuracy in linkage.

240 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:29:16pm

Typical "The Pilgrims" discovered and settled the "New World" after landing at Plymouth Rock attitude that shows a distinct ignorance of the true history of many parts of this countries history.

The "wetbacks" were here first dipshit, a long time before "you sons of a silly person pig-dog englisse" ancestors came to these shores. The "Hispanics" "found" this continent, they colonized it, they proved it a rich prize worth exploring to the rest of the European powers. The fact that you later stole a lot of it from them by military force in purposefully trumped up wars doesn't exactly prove your moral superiority now does it?

241 darthstar  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:30:09pm

re: #237 Killgore Trout

Outrageous "Factchecking" liars from Politifact
Mitt Romney had millions in a Swiss bank account, Barack Obama campaign ad says

He's not off-shoring his money to avoid taxes...it's just 'diversification' to avoid taxes.

242 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:30:12pm

I heard that Mitt Romney won't release his tax returns because they'll show that he created Nickelback.

243 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:30:45pm

re: #242 goddamnedfrank

I heard that Mitt Romney won't release his tax returns because they'll show that he created Nickelback.

To Gitmo with him!

//

244 God of Binders with Women  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:30:59pm

re: #242 goddamnedfrank

I heard that Mitt Romney won't release his tax returns because they'll show that he created Nickelback.

BRILLIANT!

245 Amory Blaine  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:31:11pm

re: #241 darthstar

He believes in diversity.

246 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:31:14pm

WND, now the new and improved front end to Stormfront, claims tomorrow will be the big day:

'INDISPUTABLE PROOF' OF OBAMA FORGERY TO BE RELEASED

At a news conference Tuesday in Phoenix that will be live-streamed by WND, Sheriff Joe Arpaio and his Cold Case Posse will present “indisputable proof” the Obama birth document released by the White House is a forgery, according to the posse’s lead investigator.

247 engineer cat  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:32:07pm

re: #240 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

Typical "The Pilgrims" discovered and settled the "New World" after landing at Plymouth Rock attitude that shows a distinct ignorance of the true history of many parts of this countries history.

The "wetbacks" were here first dipshit, a long time before "you sons of a silly person pig-dog englisse" ancestors came to these shores. The "Hispanics" "found" this continent, they colonized it, they proved it a rich prize worth exploring to the rest of the European powers. The fact that you later stole a lot of it from them by military force in purposefully trumped up wars doesn't exactly prove your moral superiority now does it?

in other words the spanish stoled it the fustest

248 God of Binders with Women  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:32:14pm

re: #246 freetoken

WND, now the new and improved front end to Stormfront, claims tomorrow will be the big day:

'INDISPUTABLE PROOF' OF OBAMA FORGERY TO BE RELEASED

BOMBSHELL!!! EXCLUSIVE!!! INDISPUTABLE PROOF!!!

249 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:32:57pm

re: #241 darthstar

He's not off-shoring his money to avoid taxes...it's just 'diversification' to avoid taxes.

False. The paid the taxes, that's why we know he had the account. It was on his tax forms.

250 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:33:04pm

re: #246 freetoken

WND, now the new and improved front end to Stormfront, claims tomorrow will be the big day:

'INDISPUTABLE PROOF' OF OBAMA FORGERY TO BE RELEASED

Oh goodie, I have the day off so I can watch the derpitude live. Guess I better go stock up on popcorn tonight.

251 jaunte  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:33:06pm

re: #246 freetoken

Fresh heatmaps?

252 darthstar  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:33:23pm

re: #246 freetoken

WND, now the new and improved front end to Stormfront, claims tomorrow will be the big day:

'INDISPUTABLE PROOF' OF OBAMA FORGERY TO BE RELEASED

Somebody put a sock in Arpaio's corn hole and shut that fucker up. Or should that be pie hole? Better to plug both.

253 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:33:53pm

re: #250 Targetpractice

Oh goodie, I have the day off so I can watch the derpitude live. Guess I better go stock up on popcorn tonight.

Won't it be like watching a rerun of a not-so-good movie you've seen too many times?

254 Amory Blaine  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:34:47pm

Weekend at Bernies.

255 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:34:52pm

Of course, the White House could always claim that President Obama was retroactively born in HI, even if Arpaio has proof otherwise.

256 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:34:56pm

re: #253 Washed-Up-Clowns 'R' Us!

Won't it be like watching a rerun of a not-so-good movie you've seen too many times?

Hey, Judge Dredd wasn't that bad!

//

257 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:35:45pm

re: #246 freetoken

'INDISPUTABLE PROOF' OF OBAMA FORGERY TO BE RELEASED

Is there any other kind of proof?

258 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:35:52pm

I heard that Mitt Romney's unreleased tax returns reveal that he sold George Lucas the concept of midichlorians.

259 darthstar  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:37:08pm

re: #257 Mich-again

Is there any other kind of proof?

100

Image: knob_creek_small_batch_9_year_old_bourbon.jpg

260 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:37:20pm

Awesome pic.

Image: ampad.jpg

261 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:37:22pm

Mitt is embarrassed that he didn't check the "Give $1 to Political Campaigns" box on the 1040..

262 brennant  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:37:25pm

re: #251 jaunte

Fresh heatmaps?

Layers!

263 God of Binders with Women  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:37:51pm

re: #246 freetoken

WND, now the new and improved front end to Stormfront, claims tomorrow will be the big day:

'INDISPUTABLE PROOF' OF OBAMA FORGERY TO BE RELEASED

At a news conference Tuesday in Phoenix that will be live-streamed by WND, Sheriff Joe Arpaio and his Cold Case Posse will present “indisputable proof” the Obama birth document released by the White House is a forgery, according to the posse’s lead investigator.

Cold Case Posse? I guess his other posse was on Broadway.

264 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:40:34pm

re: #258 goddamnedfrank

I heard that Mitt Romney's unreleased tax returns reveal that he sold George Lucas the concept of midichlorians.

I heard that they reveal that he bankrolled at least 3 Uwe Boll movies.

265 God of Binders with Women  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:41:33pm

re: #257 Mich-again

Is there any other kind of proof?

Frozen tundra.

266 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:42:46pm

re: #265 Summer Lovin' Torture Party

Frozen tundra.

Jumbo shrimp.

I'm not doing this right, am I?

267 God of Binders with Women  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:45:17pm

re: #266 Mocking Jay

Jumbo shrimp.

I'm not doing this right, am I?

ATM machine.

268 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:47:31pm

I heard that Romney's tax returns would reveal that he cancelled Firefly and The Sarah Conner Chronicles, is stalking Summer Glau.

269 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:48:15pm

re: #247 engineer cat

in other words the spanish stoled it the fustest

Actually, if the Natives down in what is now called Mexico had come up here, they would have had to fight the local Natives for it, because somebody lived here.

Of course, they were Aztecs, so it would have been quite a fight.

Hmmm. Aztecs vs. Comanches.

I see a video game coming on.

270 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:49:51pm

For those who missed the whole story, today Nordlinger had a whole series of stuff:


A Cool Ten-Year-Old Head

In today’s Impromptus, I have a few words on the 1964 presidential campaign. The invective directed against Goldwater was amazing, as you know. A month after the election, Martin Luther King said that the American people had shown “great maturity” in rejecting “a dangerous Fascist path.”

referring to earlier writing:

Goldwater was a conservative, of course: the author of The Conscience of a Conservative, no less. But he was also a classical liberal: a free-marketeer, a constitutionalist, a decentralizer, an anti-statist. Being a classical liberal is enough to get you labeled a right-winger or worse. (I can testify from personal experience.)

Martin Luther King gave his Nobel lecture in December 1964, a month after LBJ trounced Goldwater. He said the American people had showed “great maturity” in rejecting “a dangerous Fascist path.” It was not MLK’s finest moment, obviously.

I disagree with Nordlinger dismissing MLK's concerns about a "fascistic path".

Nordlinger wants to soft-peddle just how extreme the current vitriol from the "tea party" right wing of Americana truly is, or how the American system has indeed found itself tempted to go down a "fascistic path".

Nordlinger wants to make himself out to be a victim ("I can testify from personal experience") of being wrongly labeled, but as his use of "wetback" demonstrates he is indeed tin-eared about social issues in America.

271 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:51:53pm

re: #269 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Actually, if the Natives down in what is now called Mexico had come up here, they would have had to fight the local Natives for it, because somebody lived here.

Of course, they were Aztecs, so it would have been quite a fight.

Hmmm. Aztecs vs. Comanches.

I see a video game coming on.

The Tohono O'odham still live on both sides of the (relatively) new border.

272 jaunte  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:52:56pm

Senate Republicans Filibuster DISCLOSE Act

The cloture motion went down by a 51-44 margin, falling 9 votes short of the 60-vote threshold needed to overcome the GOP filibuster.

273 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:55:04pm

re: #268 goddamnedfrank

I heard that Romney's tax returns would reveal that he cancelled Firefly and The Sarah Conner Chronicles, is stalking Summer Glau.

Your source forgot about Dollhouse.

274 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:56:42pm

Romney Camp Decries ‘Crony Capitalism,’ Can’t Name Single Ethics Reform To Stop It

Mitt Romney’s campaign kicked off a new effort on Monday accusing President Obama of engaging in “crony capitalism” that rewards people who donated to his campaign. But when asked to name one single policy reform Romney would implement that would prevent such corruption, a top surrogate demurred.

“I don’t think you can do this with one overarching rule,” Virginia Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli (R) told TPM on a conference call organized by the Romney campaign. “It hasn’t worked with prior administrations. You really need to elect someone who is committed to weeding it out and not making political bundling the top requirement for a job application.”

Cuccinelli repeatedly attacked Obama for appointing “bundlers,” or top campaign fundraisers, to his administration, but offered no assurance at all that Romney would institute a policy restricting their appointments. Even if Romney did insist on keeping bundlers out of his administration, it would be impossible to tell. Romney, unlike Obama, John McCain and President George W. Bush, won’t release a list of his bundlers, according to campaign finance advocates. The only ones publicly disclosed so far are bundlers who are also registered lobbyists, since they’re governed by disclosure requirements. Obama, by contrast, does not allow lobbyists to raise money for his campaign.

Romney: The Man of a Thousand Excuses.

275 Varek Raith  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:57:06pm

re: #237 Killgore Trout

Outrageous "Factchecking" liars from Politifact
Mitt Romney had millions in a Swiss bank account, Barack Obama campaign ad says

Politifact?
Lol, they suck at factchecking.
They try too hard to be 'fair'.

276 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:57:38pm

re: #273 Mocking Jay

Your source forgot about Dollhouse.

Which brings us full circle back to Eliza Dushku's mom.

On the day of the abortion, the couple showed up at the hospital only to be greeted by their bishop, who had shown up, unannounced, to try to prevent her from going through with it, regardless of the fact that a church official with a higher rank than his had already given the okay. The bishop was determined to make his case against the life-saving surgery, and he was a total dick about it. According to a 2007 interview with Dushku, the following exchange occurred,

He said – What do you think you're doing?

She said – Well, we have to abort the baby because I have these blood clots.

And he said something to the effect of – Well, why do you get off easy when other women have their babies?

And she said – What are you talking about? This is a life threatening situation.

And he said – Well what about the life of the baby?

And she said – I have four other children and I think it would be really irresponsible to continue the pregnancy.

The bishop who tried to block that selfish, selfish clotted up woman from saving her own life with a legal medical procedure was one Mitt Romney. The woman he attempted to block did go through with her abortion and lived to see her four teenage children grow up. Her family later left the church.

277 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 3:58:16pm

re: #271 wrenchwench

The Tohono O'odham still live on both sides of the (relatively) new border.

Doesn't the Aztec foundational myth incorporate a southern exodus? I recall that they weren't local to Lake Texcoco.

Last time I was in Arizona I walked around a partially-excavated Tohono O'odham site that included a court for the "Mesoamerican Ball Game," known to the Aztecs as ulamamaztli. I persistently wonder about the meaning of that game's distribution in Central America, and what symbolic or ritual properties it had.

278 jaunte  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:01:23pm

Zack Kopplin:

Governor Jindal’s Voucher Program Will Provide Over $11 Million Per Year To Send More Than 1,300 Students To Creationist Schools

It is increasingly clear that one of Governor Jindal’s primary education goals is the teaching of creationism. He supported, signed, and defended the Louisiana Science Education Act (LSEA), Louisiana’s 2008 stealth creationism law, which allows teachers to sneak creationism into public school science classrooms by using creationist supplemental materials.
.....
Governor Jindal has been named Governor Romney’s education surrogate.

279 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:01:48pm

re: #277 The Ghost of a Flea

Doesn't the Aztec foundational myth incorporate a southern exodus? I recall that they weren't local to Lake Texcoco.

Last time I was in Arizona I walked around a partially-excavated Tohono O'odham site that included a court for the "Mesoamerican Ball Game," known to the Aztecs as ulamamaztli. I persistently wonder about the meaning of that game's distribution in Central America, and what symbolic or ritual properties it had.

It's really freaky. I forget the exact details but I seem to recall the winning team was used as human sacrifice as their prize. No shit.

280 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:02:43pm

re: #257 Mich-again

Is there any other kind of proof?

Total and complete farce. Any real investigator would simply decline to examine a digital copy of a scanned document because they can be manipulated in so many ways as to make them absolutely worthless as proof of anything. No court of law would even allow the copy of the document they are examining to be admitted into evidence, much less to attempt to use it as proof of forgery.

When certified document experts accredited to actually testify in court as to the validity of original documents actually examine the original and declare it fake then I will take notice. In the meantime this is just going to be more of the "layers" and "pixel" argument that will bolster the faithful amongst the birthers and do nothing to convince anyone else. Rightfully so.

P.S. Indisputable proof that these people will lie about what they can actually know from their "examination" of the document on the national news and directly to your face simply to advance their own political agenda. Trustworthy NOT!

P.P.S. I am going to be extremely pissed when this brings Orly Taitz back into the game to try to squeeze a few more dollars out of the people she has duped over the years.

281 Mocking Jay  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:03:15pm

re: #278 jaunte

There are a lot of jokes in there, but I have to get out of here and need you guys to pick up the slack for me.

Ciao.

282 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:05:22pm

1st female country superstar Kitty Wells dies

Singer Kitty Wells, whose hits such as "Making Believe" and "It Wasn't God Who Made Honky Tonk Angels" made her the first female superstar of country music, died Monday. She was 92.


[...]

283 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:06:02pm

Testing...

284 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:06:02pm

re: #279 Killgore Trout

It's really freaky. I forget the exact details but I seem to recall the winning team was used as human sacrifice as their prize. No shit.

Yeah, it's kind of shit:

Captives were often shown in Maya art, and it is assumed that these captives were sacrificed after losing a rigged ritual ballgame.

285 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:10:49pm

re: #283 Charles Johnson

Testing...

Wait, nobody told me there was going to be a test on this!

//

286 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:14:09pm

Add Haley Barbour to the list of Republicans calling for Romney to release his returns.

287 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:22:07pm

BTW, this is not the first time Nordlinger has used "wetback". Seems no one has bothered to link to this:


Perry in the Crosshairs

I devote a big chunk of my column today to Rick Perry, and I was talking about him last night with a Texas political hand. My friend says Perry must be amazed at how it has gone: He is under attack from the right. He entered the race as the Great Right Hope. The more conservative alternative to Romney. One of the questions about him was, “Is he just too conservative to appeal to the country at large?”

And the other candidates have painted him as a wetback-coddling squish. How odd. Rick Santorum is explaining that Perry is “weak on national sovereignty.”

[...]

288 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:22:14pm

re: #284 goddamnedfrank

Yeah, it's kind of shit:

There were a lot of different version of the game. You cited the Maya version.
El Dia de Los Muertos Tour to Oaxaca, Mexico By Gail and Ed Apple, Tohono Chul Park members and Docents

We also observed the well-preserved ball court, where competitors were only allowed to use elbows and hips to maneuver the ball. Esther explained that the winner may have been honored by being sacrificed to the gods

289 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:23:29pm
290 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:29:13pm

re: #288 Killgore Trout

There were a lot of different version of the game. You cited the Maya version.
El Dia de Los Muertos Tour to Oaxaca, Mexico By Gail and Ed Apple, Tohono Chul Park members and Docents

I'm not buying it. Self preservation is a basic instinct that a game just isn't going to override. It's not like kamikaze attacks where someone nominally sacrifices themselves to defend family, culture, society, religion. I'm not aware of any similar practices where people are supposedly vying hard to win the right to be killed by their own people.

291 McSpiff  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:33:12pm

re: #171 Obdicut

He had to have something to say about it. He was CEO, president, chairman, and sole shareholder. Even if he didn't participate in the negotiation as the various corporate officers that he was, he had to as the owner.

But that gets into piercing the corporate vale doesn't it? Could be a nice way out of this for Mitt legally. As corporate officer, he did nothing active after 1999 in terms of management. His sole actions were as shareholder, i.e Mitt Romney, not Mitt Romney, corp officer.

292 bratwurst  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:33:13pm

re: #286 goddamnedfrank

Add Haley Barbour to the list of Republicans calling for Romney to release his returns.

Another RINO!!!!1!

293 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:33:28pm

Also, no one has linked Nordlinger's defense:

[...]

What has gotten knickers in a twist is that word “wetback.” What should have been clear is that I was reflecting a certain mentality: the mentality of Reagan’s critics, some of them, at that time. The angst over tax deals, amnesty deals, arms deals, etc.

I have no doubt that most readers knew what I was doing. But I guess you have to issue these little “clarifications” for the benefit of the dim.

Look: I am not a politician. I’m a writer. And if you don’t like what I write — for heaven’s sake, there are 8 billion others you can click on. I would further say to the complainers, using a phrase I’ve never liked, frankly: Get a life. Get a frickin’ life.

One more word: If people wet their pants on seeing the word “wetback,” this country is as far gone as the most pessimistic and alarmist people say it is.

Two more words: Good grief.

So there, all you "dim"!

294 dragonfire1981  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:34:40pm

re: #288 Killgore Trout

There were a lot of different version of the game. You cited the Maya version.
El Dia de Los Muertos Tour to Oaxaca, Mexico By Gail and Ed Apple, Tohono Chul Park members and Docents

I saw one of those fields when I visited Chichen Itza some years ago. The scoring "hoops" are incredibly high (probably about 8 feet up) I have NO clue how you'd get a ball in without using your hands or feet.

295 compound_Idaho  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:34:43pm
There were a lot of different version of the game. You cited the Maya version.
El Dia de Los Muertos Tour to Oaxaca, Mexico By Gail and Ed Apple, Tohono Chul Park members and Docents

In Columbia soccer if you score on your own goal, you pay with your life.
[Link: sportsillustrated.cnn.com...]

296 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:34:50pm

re: #290 goddamnedfrank

I'm not buying it. Self preservation is a basic instinct that a game just isn't going to override. It's not like kamikaze attacks where someone nominally sacrifices themselves to defend family, culture, society, religion. I'm not aware of any similar practices where people are supposedly vying hard to win the right to be killed by their own people.

Suicide bombers. Which is to say if they're young enough, and can be convinced that they and their families will benefit from it (whether it's 72 virgins or something else), they might very well vie for the privilege.

297 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:35:50pm

Dig, Jay, dig.

298 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:36:28pm

re: #290 goddamnedfrank

I'm not buying it. Self preservation is a basic instinct that a game just isn't going to override. It's not like kamikaze attacks where someone nominally sacrifices themselves to defend family, culture, society, religion. I'm not aware of any similar practices where people are supposedly vying hard to win the right to be killed by their own people.

Have you heard the plans for the losers?

299 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:37:08pm

re: #291 McSpiff

But that gets into piercing the corporate vale doesn't it? Could be a nice way out of this for Mitt legally. As corporate officer, he did nothing active after 1999 in terms of management. His sole actions were as shareholder, i.e Mitt Romney, not Mitt Romney, corp officer.

He signed off on deals as corp officer. Piercing the veil only deals with lawsuits, not common sense assessments of involvement and responsibility.

300 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:37:43pm

re: #293 freetoken

Also, no one has linked Nordlinger's defense:

So there, all you "dim"!

Looks like his favorite thing to write about is things he wrote earlier. Dropping bombs that piss people off makes that even easier.

He's not a good writer. He did not convey that he was "reflecting a certain mentality." He seemed pretty clearly to be reflecting his own hateful mentality.

301 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:38:43pm

re: #296 Washed-Up-Clowns 'R' Us!

Suicide bombers.Which is to say if they're young enough, and can be convinced that they and their families will benefit from it (whether it's 72 virgins or something else), they might very well vie for the privilege.

Covered under kamikaze attacks. I find the selling of death as a reward in the context of a game or competition to be unlikely in the extreme.

302 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:38:49pm

re: #290 goddamnedfrank

I'm not buying it. Self preservation is a basic instinct that a game just isn't going to override. It's not like kamikaze attacks where someone nominally sacrifices themselves to defend family, culture, society, religion. I'm not aware of any similar practices where people are supposedly vying hard to win the right to be killed by their own people.

A lot of human sacrifices (both in this hemisphere and the other one) were told they were going to paradise, it was an honor, etc. etc., but they were still usually picked by other people.

Even today, notice that the people who recruit suicide bombers don't usually do it themselves.

303 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:41:18pm

Oh look, a young writer at NR in 1998 by the name of Jonah Goldberg called attention to a politician using the term "wetback":

THOSE POLITICALLY CORRECT DEMOCRATS
Orthodox rabbis “are closer to Nazis than they think they are.” — Geoffrey Fieger, Democrat for Governor of Michigan, New York Times, August 8, 1998

Americans should not receive the same wages as “a Chinese coolie or a Mexican wetback.” — Ivan Itkin, Democrat for Governor of Pennsylvania, on WLKK, Erie, Penn. as reported by the Associated Press on October 24, 1998.

Explaining why he was 40 minutes late for a candidate forum, Vinich said he was on “Indian time.” — John Vinich, Democrat for Governor of Wyoming, as reported in the Casper, Wyo. Star-Tribune on October 24, 1998

The implication by Goldberg, of course, is that the Democrats were being hypocrits, but they could only be hypocrits if indeed there was some underly moral issue at stake.

So, if Jonah Goldberg recognized that there were issues around using the term "wetback" way back in 1998, how come 14 years later the very same magazine now uses the term approvingly?

304 teresa  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:41:34pm

I am always amazed at the levels Republicans will stoop too, you think they won't go any lower and then, snap, they dig that hole just a little bit deeper!
They can only win when they won't let citizens vote, their ideas suck, and the vast majority of people know that Republicans are, well, you know, kind of evil.
There, I said it.

305 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:41:43pm

re: #301 goddamnedfrank

Covered under kamikaze attacks. I find the selling of death as a reward in the context of a game or competition to be unlikely in the extreme.

I guess Roman gladiators come closest in the sense that death was on the line, but the vast majority of them were slaves and fought to live. The few free men who became gladiators did so in order to get laid, another biological imperative.

306 McSpiff  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:43:00pm

re: #299 goddamnedfrank

He signed off on deals as corp officer. Piercing the veil only deals with lawsuits, not common sense assessments of involvement and responsibility.

Oh I agree, but I'm assuming that statement was written by a very good legal team. No way they'd actually commit perjury, even if in 'real' terms he did.

307 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:44:02pm

re: #294 dragonfire1981

I saw one of those fields when I visited Chichen Itza some years ago. The scoring "hoops" are incredibly high (probably about 8 feet up) I have NO clue how you'd get a ball in without using your hands or feet.

I saw a smaller tohono ball court in Northern Arizona, I forget the name of the site. Event though a smaller court I thought the game looked impossible.

308 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:44:43pm

re: #305 goddamnedfrank

I guess Roman gladiators come closest in the sense that death was on the line, but the vast majority of them were slaves and fought to live. The few free men who became gladiators did so in order to get laid, another biological imperative.

The whole Roman gladiatorial stuff is a prime example of the depths to which humans will sink: blood for amusement.

As opposed to our entertainment today, in which blood is faked for our amusement, but that got old, so now we have reality TV, in which real humans fake anguish so that we can be amused.

309 dragonfire1981  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:44:58pm

For one night only we will finally get answers! He's tried to run, he's tried to hide but now Mitt Romney must face his greatest fear head on. Two men will enter...one man will leave. Live on PPV it will be the Republican Golden Boy against the monster he created. Don't miss out!

310 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:46:00pm

The idea of sacrificing the winners (or losers) of a rigged ceremonial game fits with another meso-American idea--the Floral Wars. Subject peoples were brought into the rigged wars to provide large numbers of sacrifices in stressful times.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

311 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:46:21pm

Again, National Review, now in 2004 with non other than Derbyshire:

One of the cliches of this debate is that “you can’t very well deport them all, can you?” Well, actually, we probably could if we wanted to. In the 1954 Operation Wetback (sorry, that’s what it was called), the INS claimed to have sent 1,300,000 illegals back to Mexico using a force of only 700 officers. The figures have been disputed; but as a matter of sheer practicality, I do not believe that deporting eight million illegals with current resources is unthinkable.

Derbyshire is of course (as evidenced by the multitude of his other writings) being sarcastic with his "sorry".

Nordlinger is taking the Derbyshire approach to these hot button words, making himself out to be a victim of some kind of though police, when in fact everyone knows these words are loaded with hateful meaning.

312 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:46:43pm

re: #296 Washed-Up-Clowns 'R' Us!

Suicide bombers. Which is to say if they're young enough, and can be convinced that they and their families will benefit from it (whether it's 72 virgins or something else), they might very well vie for the privilege.

If someone thinks they are saving their tribe from certain doom, get a special place in the afterlife and become a hero there will be volunteers.

313 dragonfire1981  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:50:18pm

To: mitt.romney@baincapital.com
From: John.Q.Bain@baincapital.com

Hey Mitt,

We made a big acquisition this past week and we're going to have to clean house over there as far as layoffs go. Sucks for them but more gold plated yachts for us! Ha ha ha...anyway, I wanted to give you a heads up so you could schedule a "vacation" before this deal closes and that way you won't have deal with any of the mess if it doesn't work out.

Basically the same thing we always do with stuff like this. Gotta cover our asses right?? (or maybe that should be assets...HA!)

So yeah, make sure to get the hell out of dodge ASAP. I'll drop you a line and let you know when it's safe to come back.

John

314 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 4:51:32pm

Ok, this one should expose Nordlinger for his deceit. Here is Nordlinger himself from 2009:

In that recent speech to Congress, President Obama used the phrase “illegal immigrants.” He then went on Univision and took it back, in a way. He had said “illegal immigrants” only because he was quoting conservatives’ language back at them. Is “illegal immigrants” to be a verboten or stigmatized phrase now? Is it to be an equivalent of “wetbackYour text to link...”?

It's pretty clear that Nordlinger was self aware of the stigma around "wetback". It was also clear back then that he didn't like the constraints put on his language in public.

Yet he is now pretending as if he is somehow surprised at all this brouhaha over "wetback".

Nordlinger is doing nothing other than simple practicing blowing a dog-whistle.

315 Gus  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:00:35pm

re: #303 freetoken

Oh look, a young writer at NR in 1998 by the name of Jonah Goldberg called attention to a politician using the term "wetback":

The implication by Goldberg, of course, is that the Democrats were being hypocrits, but they could only be hypocrits if indeed there was some underly moral issue at stake.

So, if Jonah Goldberg recognized that there were issues around using the term "wetback" way back in 1998, how come 14 years later the very same magazine now uses the term approvingly?

IOKIYAR

316 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:03:48pm

Oh look, here's another NRO writer, back in 2008, admitting the obvious:

Language does matter. But the alternative to the government’s former use of the derogatory “wetback” is not today’s euphemism of “undocumented immigrant.” The alternative to “infidel” is not “violent extremist.” Political correctness is alive and well on the Right, and it hobbles our ability to preserve and protect our civilization.

Yes, that's right, a NR writer actually acknowledges that "wetback" is derogatory! Miracles do happen! Or at least one did, past tense.

317 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:08:44pm

re: #316 freetoken

Oh look, here's another NRO writer, back in 2008, admitting the obvious:

Yes, that's right, a NR writer actually acknowledges that "wetback" is derogatory! Miracles do happen! Or at least one did, past tense.

He still wants to be allowed to say it. And to say whatever he wants, lest the range of thought be narrowed.

318 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:12:07pm

re: #317 wrenchwench

Yes, but he wants the freedom to be derogatory - he's not arguing that words don't matter.

Nordlinger is trying to pretend simultaneously that words don't matter... but they do matter when it fits his own goals.

Nordlinger is a senior editor at NR - I think he ought to offer Derbyshire an apology and offer him a writing gig again, as there isn't any space between Derbyshire's position on writing whatever he wants, and Nordlinger's approach.

319 allegro  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:12:47pm

re: #317 wrenchwench

He still wants to be allowed to say it. And to say whatever he wants, lest the range of thought be narrowed.

I think he should be totally allowed to say it. And then we are allowed to rightfully judge him as a bigoted asshole with no credibility.

320 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:16:38pm

re: #319 allegro

I think he should be totally allowed to say it. And then we are allowed to rightfully judge him as a bigoted asshole with no credibility.

Ya. Political correctness? Let your freak flag fly. Civilization, not politics will judge you. Go for it!!

321 allegro  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:25:04pm

re: #320 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

Peer/public pressure has always been the root of real change.

322 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:25:25pm

On this day, 67 years ago:

323 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:26:39pm
324 jaunte  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:29:50pm

Bill O'Reilly just claimed that if Obama wins the election he'll be paying "about half" of his money to the government in taxes.

325 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:30:11pm

re: #324 jaunte

Good.

326 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:31:05pm

re: #324 jaunte

Bill O'Reilly just claimed that if Obama wins the election he'll be paying "about half" of his money to the government in taxes.

I wasn't aware that Obama was proposing a tax on assholes.

/

327 jaunte  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:31:45pm

re: #326 Targetpractice

Maybe they're eliminating the bloviation deductions.

328 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:35:52pm

Okay, this is the real reason I think (actually I'm fairly certain) Romney's refusing to release more of his tax returns. In 2008 and 2009 he's almost certain to have wiped out most if not all of his liability with capital losses. In other words he probably paid net zero or very close to it in those two years. Lots of investors wiped out their tax burden this way in those two years because thats when the market tanked. By selling certain stocks and locking in those losses they were able to offset liability from any other gains or taxable income they may have had.

This shouldn't come as a surprise, it's how the system is designed to work. However Romney doesn't want to be the poster boy for the zero tax bill crowd, he doesn't want to have to explain why he paid so little when lower and middle class people earning far less paid more. If Romney were to release 2008 and 2009 then he'd have to release several prior years just to show that these years represent anomalies due to the business cycle. Before long he's back into the grey area years at Bain where his principle occupation comes into play. Those earlier returns are also too old to amend, whatever facts they contain are locked in.

329 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:38:30pm

Hi all! Just a quick question, then back to lurkin'...
If Romney releases his taxes, and it shows that for x number of years he paid little or nothing, wouldn't it kind of blow a whole in the RW mantra that the rich pay the lion's share of taxes while the rest of us are whiny babies? Whether they do or not isn't the issue, I think. It's the perception given to those of us who are struggling to make ends meet check who check our bank accounts every morning to see if our refunds have been deposited.
Back to lurking... :>)

330 dragonath  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:38:53pm

re: #270 freetoken

There's that "classical liberalism" meme again. Liberalism does not equate with paleoconservatism.

331 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:40:23pm

And now, a nifty little Linux command that generates a random string of characters:

< /dev/urandom tr -dc A-Za-z0-9-_ | head -c24

The number following "-c" is how many characters to generate. An example string that the command generates:

hdpup4EcpfSI_9ixBH5_WIIK

Yes, this is part of what I've been doing this afternoon. My name is Charles, and I'm a nerd.

332 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:42:13pm

re: #331 Charles Johnson

And now, a nifty little Linux command that generates a random string of characters:

[Embedded content]

The number following "-c" is how many characters to generate. An example string that the command generates:

hdpup4EcpfSI_9ixBH5_WIIK

Yes, this is part of what I've been doing this afternoon. My name is Charles, and I'm a nerd.

*Best AA voice* Hi Charles!

//

333 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:43:14pm

re: #329 OhNoZombies!

Hi all! Just a quick question, then back to lurkin'...
If Romney releases his taxes, and it shows that for x number of years he paid little or nothing, wouldn't it kind of blow a whole in the RW mantra that the rich pay the lion's share of taxes while the rest of us are whiny babies? Whether they do or not isn't the issue, I think. It's the perception given to those of us who are struggling to make ends meet check who check our bank accounts every morning to see if our refunds have been deposited.
Back to lurking... :>)

What it would do is destroy the myth that it's exclusively lower income earners who comprise the 48% or so of federal income tax payers who pay net zero. The last thing the GOP wants is for red state rubes to understand the actual mechanics and structure of the tax system they pay into.

334 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:46:14pm

re: #178 freetoken

Here are some Republican candidates in sync with one of their bosses:

The candidates:

Republicans Bring Charge Of Obama ‘War On Coal’ To Virginia

Rupert Murdoch 5 days ago:

[Embedded content] Half carbon of coal and oil.

Because what is pumped up is only half oil. Bunch of other shit mixed in with it. Refiners have to add better oil to refine it anyway. They need to keep the price of a barrel of sweet oil high enough to make it even worth while to drill for the stuff.

335 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:49:18pm
Add another document to the pile, this one from California's secretary of state.

In a filing dated July 21, 1999, GOP presidential hopeful Mitt Romney was listed as a "general partner" for Bain Capital Partners, a California Limited Partnership. Romney's signature is on the document declaring that he certified "that the statements contained in this document are true and correct to my own knowledge. I declare that I am the person who is executing this instrument, which execution is my act and deed."

Romney remained on record as one of four general partners until the state was notified of his resignation on June 17, 2003.

336 Targetpractice  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:49:35pm

re: #333 goddamnedfrank

What it would do is destroy the myth that it's exclusively lower income earners who comprise the 48% or so of federal income tax payers who pay net zero. The last thing the GOP wants is for red state rubes to understand the actual mechanics and structure of the tax system they pay into.

I think it's more they know the average rube won't understand how taxes actually work and will, when they see zero or just above paid in taxes during the height of the Recession, they'll flip out. Remember that he's already taken some heat just for the one year he's released that show him paying something like 14-15% in taxes. It comes out that, while millions were losing their jobs or facing foreclosure, he was drawing in thousands or even millions of dollars with zero taxes paid, Peoria will want his head.

337 freetoken  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:50:49pm

re: #335 goddamnedfrank

Now we know why Romney was paid so much money during those years - he had a sh*t-load of papers to sign.

338 jaunte  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:59:24pm

5 Questions for the Fact-Checkers on Romney and Bain

"Is it possible that even without day-to-day managerial control, Mitt Romney may bear some moral or personal responsibility for the actions of Bain Capital post-1999, given that no one is disputing that he benefited financially from its actions and that his name was on the door? Is that question even fact-checkable?"

339 dragonfire1981  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:59:25pm

re: #336 Targetpractice

I think it's more they know the average rube won't understand how taxes actually work and will, when they see zero or just above paid in taxes during the height of the Recession, they'll flip out. Remember that he's already taken some heat just for the one year he's released that show him paying something like 14-15% in taxes. It comes out that, while millions were losing their jobs or facing foreclosure, he was drawing in thousands or even millions of dollars with zero taxes paid, Peoria will want his head.

It could even be worse. What if he managed to finagle a REFUND during any of those years?

340 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 5:59:56pm

re: #333 goddamnedfrank

See, and that's the problem for the GOP with this whole retroactive retirement bollocks: it is unravelling myths. It says to the Joe the Plumbers out there,"No! you are not and will never be one of us! We can do things within the system, legally, that most of you hard working schmucks couldn't imagine, with the swipe of a pen."
I think this is what Obama's campaign is trying to do with Bain. Most people don't have time to parse the fine details of Romney's business practices, but they will get a gut feeling about the whole thing.

341 kirkspencer  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 6:01:53pm

re: #324 jaunte

Bill O'Reilly just claimed that if Obama wins the election he'll be paying "about half" of his money to the government in taxes.

and this is a problem why?

342 jaunte  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 6:04:52pm

re: #340 OhNoZombies!

For example:

343 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 6:14:14pm

One thing that Americans of all stripes hate more than anything is to be made to feel less than, and I don't think it's possible for Mitt to come off more condescending.
He's the poster boy for the spoiled rich kid from Aspen in every 80's movie ever made.

344 Kragar  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 6:14:41pm

David Barton loves animal abuse

during last Friday's program, Barton went off on his new favorite topic about the ways in which know-nothing government bureaucrats are interfering with the lives and work of average Americans in cumbersome and absurd ways. To prove his point, Barton cited a supposed situation in which the Department of Agriculture shut down shows featuring Tennessee Walking Horses solely because these government bureaucrats thought "it looks strange to us" and must be damaging the horses, even though they had no idea how to actually check a horse's hoof in the first place:

That is Barton's version of the story, which you can compare to the real version of the story involving undercover video filmed by the Humane Society showing trainers routinely beating and torturing horses in order train them to walk in this distinctive manner:

The Humane Society of the United States released undercover video Thursday of a Tennessee Walking Horse trainer abusing the animals in order to accentuate their well-known high leg kick.

The practice, known as “soring,” involves using chemicals on the horses ankles as a way to force them, because of pain, to lift their legs higher when they walk ... Soring has been illegal under the federal Horse Protection Act since 1970. But Keith Dane, director of equine protection for the Humane Society, said it has “continued unabated for the past 42 years.”

The video, shot over seven weeks last year by an undercover humane society investigator, shows trainers at a Collierville, Tenn., farm applying the chemicals to the horses, whipping them, shocking them in the head and hitting their legs with wooden sticks. At points, horses in the video struggle to stand up.

345 palomino  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 6:19:51pm

re: #324 jaunte

Bill O'Reilly just claimed that if Obama wins the election he'll be paying "about half" of his money to the government in taxes.

If that's true (based on the combo of fed, and high NY/NYC state and local taxes) then O'Reilly is already paying almost half of his income in taxes. An increase in the top marginal rate from 35% to 39% wouldn't change O'Reilly's tax burden in percentage terms very much. He might pay an extra 800k annually (assuming he makes about 20 mil a year). But even if the rates don't change, and he had his 800k back, he's still be paying nearly half his income. In other words, his taxes aren't going up that much in proportional terms, and most people (since they make significantly less than Bill, won't even be affected).

346 jaunte  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 6:21:42pm

re: #345 palomino

Ten million a year; it's just not enough!

347 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 6:28:52pm

Oh no & GDF, bingo!

TEA=Taxed Enough Already

Oops

348 b_sharp  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 6:32:10pm

re: #331 Charles Johnson

And now, a nifty little Linux command that generates a random string of characters:

[Embedded content]

The number following "-c" is how many characters to generate. An example string that the command generates:

hdpup4EcpfSI_9ixBH5_WIIK

Yes, this is part of what I've been doing this afternoon. My name is Charles, and I'm a nerd.

Charles, what Linux distribution are you using?

349 boxhead  Mon, Jul 16, 2012 7:52:45pm

re: #348 b_sharp

Charles, what Linux distribution are you using?

from Netcraft

Linux Apache/2.0.63 (Unix) mod_ssl/2.0.63 OpenSSL/0.9.7a DAV/2 mod_auth_passthrough/2.1 mod_bwlimited/1.4 FrontPage/5.0.2.2635

not sure if that answered your question fully.

yeah.. no kernel info. you could run a nmap if possible


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