The Gun Thread

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Are people getting inured to violence like we saw in Colorado this week? Why has there been so little real discussion of ways to stop such devastating weaponry from being used for indiscriminate slaughter?

As a gun owner myself, I’m obviously taking advantage of my 2nd Amendment rights. But I never felt the urge to acquire 6,000 rounds of ammo for a semi-automatic rifle and a drum magazine to help me shoot more, faster, either. The US is near the top of the list for most-armed nations — we’re packing twice as much heat per capita as Yemen.

Is this really necessary? Shouldn’t we start discussing why this is happening, and how we can improve the situation?

Yeah, I wrote “improve,” because when atrocities like the Aurora massacre are easy to perpetrate, when the tools for mass murder are so readily available, then America, we have a problem.

This is a tough issue, with a lot of emotion on both sides. Where do you stand?

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370 comments
1 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 5:58:37pm

I like to shoot, and agree, that this is a tough issue, with high emotions on both sides.

2 Iwouldprefernotto  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:00:20pm

My hope that after the election, Obama will do something (assault weapons ban), but I know he won't even touch the issue prior to November.

My fear is that we need another 10 mass killings before even a modest proposal is introduced.

3 deadletterboy  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:01:51pm

I'm not ashamed to say that guns scare me. I've fired them, I made myself feel comfortable around them by taking a class, but I honestly have no desire to own one.

I think we need to have an actual adult conversation about why it's acceptable to own something like an AR-15, a gun that, to me at least, appears to have no purpose other than to kill a lot of people very quickly. The problem is that no politicians have the balls to say anything, with the powerful NRA shouting down and blacklisting anyone who dares speak out.

My friend put it this way: If I downloaded two episodes of 'Game of Thrones' off the internet, HBO would be hunting my ass down in minutes. But 6000 rounds of ammunition being ordered sets off no red flags?

Something really needs to be changed.

4 Kragar  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:02:41pm

Think of all the qualifications, registrations, insurance and regulations governing automobiles, plus what modifications and usage is considered street legal.

Now we just need to apply that to firearms.

5 jaunte  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:03:00pm

I own guns, and have always thought it was odd that so much attention is paid to to training, safety, inspection, and ongoing registration for driving a car, and so little, in contrast, is required to own guns.

6 deadletterboy  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:03:47pm

re: #4 Kragar

This.

7 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:03:57pm

As I commented earlier today, the Democratic Party remembers losing 54 seats and control of the House for the first time since the 50's in the 1994 mid-terms because of the AWB. There will be no additional "gun control" bill in this generation.

The best thing to do is work at the state level for classes like drivers ed or hunter safety in high school to teach safe & responsible gun handling. This combined with funding actual enforcement of existing law will go most of the way to where we need to get.

8 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:04:27pm
This is a tough issue, with a lot of emotion on both sides.

MBF! Outrage!
/

9 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:05:06pm

re: #4 Kragar

Think of all the qualifications, registrations, insurance and regulations governing automobiles, plus what modifications and usage is considered street legal.

Now we just need to apply that to firearms.

A car is a privilege. You do not have a right to one according to the courts.

The constitution says you do have a right to own a gun.

10 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:05:18pm

Charles you and I are proof you can have pretty solid gun laws and still own them for protection or sport. That Ar-15 gun and ultra high cap magazine could not be bought legally here. California might be a good model that sits between the egregious laws that were overturned by the Supreme Court and at the other extreme perhaps Arizona. We can not own body armor like that here. We can certainly not get tear gas canisters.

All that having been said, we really need to understand the psychology better of mass killers. What makes a personality capable of that kind of mayhem? I happen to think this guy would have built something deadly had he not had access to the guns. Speculation I admit, but influences by that wired up apartment.

11 Iwouldprefernotto  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:06:17pm

re: #7 William Barnett-Lewis

As I commented earlier today, the Democratic Party remembers losing 54 seats and control of the House for the first time since the 50's in the 1994 mid-terms because of the AWB. There will be no additional "gun control" bill in this generation.

The best thing to do is work at the state level for classes like drivers ed or hunter safety in high school to teach safe & responsible gun handling. This combined with funding actual enforcement of existing law will go most of the way to where we need to get.

When Muslim terrorists start buying assault rifles the tide will change.

12 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:07:32pm

I too own a gun. I own a Ruger SP 101. When I bought it I received training from the shop owner, a retired police officer. He taught me how to use the gun and how to care for it. I pray I never have to use it.

13 Kragar  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:07:48pm

re: #9 William Barnett-Lewis

A car is a privilege. You do not have a right to one according to the courts.

The constitution says you do have a right to own a gun.

You sure do, just take this class, fill out this registration, make sure its insured, plus submit for annual requalifications to prove you can still operate it safely.

14 Targetpractice  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:08:47pm

re: #7 William Barnett-Lewis

As I commented earlier today, the Democratic Party remembers losing 54 seats and control of the House for the first time since the 50's in the 1994 mid-terms because of the AWB. There will be no additional "gun control" bill in this generation.

The best thing to do is work at the state level for classes like drivers ed or hunter safety in high school to teach safe & responsible gun handling. This combined with funding actual enforcement of existing law will go most of the way to where we need to get.

That's just it, what laws did Holmes break? Or Loughner? Or Hasan? Or Seung-Hui?

15 Kragar  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:10:54pm

All Americans are given the right to own one black powder muzzle loader, free and clear.

After that, start filling out forms.

16 Achilles Tang  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:11:23pm

I find the whole thing depressing. Nothing will change because the GOP encourages their people to fear government and those people think the only thing that stands between them and an Obama/Librul/Soros/UN dictatorship is their guns.

I'm not kidding.

17 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:11:50pm

re: #15 Kragar

Now how many know how to fire said muzzle loader?

18 jaunte  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:12:09pm

re: #15 Kragar

Gun lobby explosions commence.

19 JamesWI  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:12:23pm

re: #13 Kragar

You sure do, just take this class, fill out this registration, make sure its insured, plus submit for annual requalifications to prove you can still operate it safely.

It sure is strange that conservatives are generally fine with the idea that there can be restrictions and exceptions to nearly every other Constitutional Right, yet the right to own something that is designed to kill is the one thing that is absolute and should never be restricted in any way.

We can have bans on obscene words, or words designed to incite violence....but no restrictions on the actual instruments used to commit that violence.

20 Kragar  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:12:56pm

re: #17 PhillyPretzel

Now how many know how to fire said muzzle loader?

They have the right to own it, its up to them to operate it.

21 deadletterboy  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:15:31pm

An argument that I often see brought up in these conversations, which is often shouted down by people who advocate strongly for guns rights is this: You claim the constitution is a living breathing document, ie you can modify it to define marriage or to say that the separation of church and state really doesn't mean that. However, this same side often says that the second amendment is untouchable and that, while the founding fathers knew technology would change, they never meant this amendment to be changed to restrict, say, a gun that kills lots and lots of people very quickly.

That wasn't the most clear way to type that statement, but honestly, why are we so insistent about this one particular point in the constitution? Is it or is it not a living document?

22 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:16:29pm

re: #11 Iwouldprefernotto

When Muslim terrorists start buying assault rifles the tide will change.

They already do. Usually from the CIA.

Oh, you mean sporting semi-automatic rifles? Well, they buy those too already. If you can pass NICS & have the cash anyone can. The NRA prefers it that way because LaPierre's $900K a year depends on that kind of fear driving contributions.

23 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:17:05pm

re: #4 Kragar

Nobody makes me wait 10 days to buy a car. No background check for DUI's. Heck I think I can buy a car without a drivers license, if I have a friend to drive it off the lot.

24 Kragar  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:18:21pm

re: #23 Daniel Ballard

Nobody makes me wait 10 days to buy a car. No background check for DUI's. Heck I think I can buy a car without a drivers license, if I have a friend to drive it off the lot.

I never said it was an exact fit.

25 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:18:27pm

re: #13 Kragar

You sure do, just take this class, fill out this registration, make sure its insured, plus submit for annual requalifications to prove you can still operate it safely.

Legally if someone can't buy it if they don't do it or pass it, it's unconstitutional. Just like the Chicago & DC gun bans.

26 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:18:34pm

re: #23 Daniel Ballard

All you need is proof of insurance!

27 jaunte  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:19:26pm

re: #21 deadletterboy

... honestly, why are we so insistent about this one particular point in the constitution? Is it or is it not a living document?

No one is insisting on the 'well regulated militia' language in the 2nd.

28 Targetpractice  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:20:00pm

re: #21 deadletterboy

An argument that I often see brought up in these conversations, which is often shouted down by people who advocate strongly for guns rights is this: You claim the constitution is a living breathing document, ie you can modify it to define marriage or to say that the separation of church and state really doesn't mean that. However, this same side often says that the second amendment is untouchable and that, while the founding fathers knew technology would change, they never meant this amendment to be changed to restrict, say, a gun that kills lots and lots of people very quickly.

That wasn't the most clear way to type that statement, but honestly, why are we so insistent about this one particular point in the constitution? Is it or is it not a living document?

That's just it, our 2nd Amendment rights have already been restricted. Since 1934, you can't buy a machine gun, grenade launcher, or silencer new. You gotta have them registered, have the proper paperwork if the cops ever ask, and gotta go through a complicated process to sell them to others. You get caught with a sawed-off shotgun, your ass is also in trouble.

29 compound_Idaho  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:20:18pm

re: #7 William Barnett-Lewis

As I commented earlier today, the Democratic Party remembers losing 54 seats and control of the House for the first time since the 50's in the 1994 mid-terms because of the AWB. There will be no additional "gun control" bill in this generation.

The best thing to do is work at the state level for classes like drivers ed or hunter safety in high school to teach safe & responsible gun handling. This combined with funding actual enforcement of existing law will go most of the way to where we need to get.

I took gun safety in public school during normal class time in my "life time sports class". The range was in the basement of the high school. I suspect those days are long gone.

30 Kragar  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:21:10pm

re: #27 jaunte

No one is insisting on the 'well regulated militia' language in the 2nd.

Well regulated is the tools of the Devil.

31 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:22:32pm

re: #29 compound_Idaho

In Philly you cannot learn about Archery. No one ever mentions the "g" word.

32 Cap'n Magic  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:23:21pm

Doesn't CO have concealed carry? Granted, the situation presented isn't the best to be thrown into when it went down, but still...

33 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:24:03pm

This is a tough issue, with a lot of emotion on both sides. Where do you stand?

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater

Like you (Charles) I too am a gun owner
And also like you I see no need for a civilian to be armed with anything that requires 6,000 rounds of ammo

We need to close the gun show loopholes. We need to close the "private" one on one sale loophole. Anyone who sells a gun should have to pass some sort of "pink slip" (like with a car title) from that person to the next owner. That "pink slip" should follow the gun from manufacturer till it's destroyed

In this day and age of ID theft, I think there should be a mandatory 14 day (minimum) waiting period before you get a permit. Longer for a carry and conceal

Just mho!!!

34 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:24:28pm

re: #24 Kragar

Yes that's true. The point I should have added is the car thing is all about ID for the state and responsibility in a accident. (And cash flow for the state DMV system) You can't go to a gun dealer and buy without good ID and the b/g check. You do have to register handguns.

There is no proof you can drive well enough involved in a car purchase. In California to buy a handgun you do have top pass a test.

Some apples vs oranges problems here but I think we need to look at each device on its own. Car, boat, plane, or gun.

35 Kragar  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:24:33pm

Needing to fill out paperwork and tightening regulations to exercise your constitutional right to vote? Good.

Needing to fill out paperwork and tightening regulations to exercise your constitutional right to own a firearm? Bad.

36 jaunte  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:24:37pm

"Sales were up 81% since 2008, reflecting worries about the economy and fears that President Obama and Democrats might try to rein in gun ownership. (There have been no efforts, in fact.)"

Gunmakers' shares take off as orders jump

Sturm, Ruger shares rise more than 12% after it says it's received orders for more than 1 million units and won't take new orders until after May. Smith & Wesson shares rise, too.

37 SteveMcG  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:25:11pm

re: #11 Iwouldprefernotto

When Muslim terrorists start buying assault rifles the tide will change.

They'll just target the mosques.

38 Cheechako  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:25:22pm
I took gun safety in public school during normal class time in my "life time sports class". The range was in the basement of the high school. I suspect those days are long gone.

Up here in SE Alaska, firearms safety and use along with other outdoor safety topics are taught to the 7th or 8th graders in a required week-long class. The students live fire .22's at the local range.

39 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:25:46pm

I have two children in the hallway right now discussing whether or not you can, with legos, make a sniper machine gun.

Logic is not prevailing.

40 SteveMcG  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:26:08pm

re: #31 PhillyPretzel

In Philly you cannot learn about Archery. No one ever mentions the "g" word.

There is a archery range on State Road between Cottman and Princeton.

41 Interesting Times  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:26:47pm
42 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:26:49pm

One problem is that we have an enormous sub-culture built around the notion that private citizens can use small arms to overthrow a tyrannical government, and that thinly veiled communist agents are trying to deprive them of the means to do this. They further believe that there is imminent danger of such a government coming to power, if it hasn't already, that rioting mobs of minorities are wild in the streets, and that crime is out of control, if not directly incited by the tyrants.
It sounds like one of Harry Turtledove's alternate history scenarios, and in many ways it is just that. Unfortunately, millions believe it is real, and there is a lucrative industry built around encouraging that view.
This pervasive alternate world view makes rational discourse on the issue next to impossible.

43 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:26:53pm

re: #28 Targetpractice

That's just it, our 2nd Amendment rights have already been restricted. Since 1934, you can't buy a machine gun, grenade launcher, or silencer new. You gotta have them registered, have the proper paperwork if the cops ever ask, and gotta go through a complicated process to sell them to others. You get caught with a sawed-off shotgun, your ass is also in trouble.

That's not quite right.

Take silencers. There is a thriving business in new ones. If I want one, I need to fill out an ATF form 1, have it signed by my communities Chief LEO & send it in with $200 tax/fee. When the tax stamp gets back I go to the manufacturer and pay whatever the cost is.

Same for short barreled rifles and short barreled (ie sawed off) shotguns. Pay your tax & buy a new one or a used one.

Now the registry for full automatic weapons has been closed since 1986 by the Hughes Amendment. However, Form 1 & $200 & the large amount of money they go for and I can legally own a registered machine gun.

This is the law since 1934 as modified significantly in 1968 & 1985.

44 SteveMcG  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:27:48pm

My thought about gun ownership is that your more likely to die from a bullet you own that use one to protect yourself. Corollary to that is a concealed carrier is bound to shoot an unarmed person. Oh, wait, that already happened.

45 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:28:08pm

re: #40 SteveMcG

Thank you for telling me. I should have said you cannot learn these things in the Philadelphia School System.

46 Targetpractice  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:28:36pm

re: #43 William Barnett-Lewis

That's not quite right.

Take silencers. There is a thriving buisness in new ones. If I want one, I need to fill out an ATF form 1, have it signed by my communities Chief LEO & send it in with $200 tax/fee. When the tax stamp gets back I go to the manufacturer and pay whatever the cost is.

Same for short barreled rifles and short barreled (ie sawed off) shotguns. Pay your tax & buy a new one or a used one.

Now the registry for full automatic weapons has been closed since 1986 by the Hughes Amendment. However, Form 1 & $200 & the large amount of money they go for and I can legally own a registered machine gun.

This is the law since 1934 as modified significantly in 1968 & 1985.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up.

47 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:28:53pm

This is what I wrote earlier today in another thread.

***

The US has almost double the rate of civilian gun ownership than Yemen, the next closest. This is by far the most heavily armed nation on the planet.

There are no good statistics on crime prevention with legally owned guns. The gun lobby estimates of 'millions' are based entirely on fantasy with no even vaguely plausible numbers to back them up. A few such stories exist, and as with many things that are sufficiently rare that there are only a few anecdotes about the event in question, it makes you wonder how rare these particular unicorns are. Certainly the fact that countries with similar culture, wealth and demographics to the US but with almost no private gun ownership have comparable or lower rates of violent crime, rather than a helpless citizenry endlessly plagued by armed, crazed, ravening criminals, suggests that armed self-defence is a canard.

However, the casualty rates from firearms are well-chronicled. People notice a few of the shooting sprees and massacres, such as this one, and Virginia Tech, and Columbine. Most go unreported and unnoticed, because America as a whole simply doesn't especially care about a small massacre here or there. How many of us knew about the mass shooting that one of the victims of Aurora survived only a few weeks ago? How many of us knew about the mass school shooting that happened the day before Trayvon Martin was killed? I didn't until yesterday. And as terrible as this ridiculous rate of mass shootings is, I argue that it pales beside the constant, background casualty rate, where people shoot each other in domestic situations, in street altercations, in suicidal whims, and the like. The few deaths, in ones and twos, that happen every day, that we just accept. The massacres every month that we simply accept, because as a nation, America worships the gun. Because we feel uncomfortable and guilty about even thinking that maybe this many guns around might not be a good thing. Because we have become conditioned by the feeling that to do anything other than mutely accept this casualty rate is unpatriotic, that it shows you don't 'love the Constitution' or some such rubbish.

Massacres exist elsewhere, yes, in places that have strict firearm laws and small rates of gun ownership. The difference is that in these places, massacres are rare enough to be major news. And they always spawn changes, rather than mute acceptance. In Australia, the Port Arthur massacre was the last in a string of three or four that had occurred over the previous year or two. After it happened, firearm laws were severely tightened, with widespread public acceptance, because Australia has no religion of the gun. That was in 1996. In the intervening 16 years, there have been no mass shootings in Australia, the nation with probably the closest cultural similarity to the US.

Makes you think.

48 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:29:08pm

re: #32 Cap'n Magic

Doesn't CO have concealed carry? Granted, the situation presented isn't the best to be thrown into when it went down, but still...

iirc Aurora has a very strict law re: all firearms

For some reason, every time I try to open GOOGLE my puter freezes up, so I can't link to that

49 CriticalDragon1177  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:30:54pm

Charles Johnson

I support the second Amendment, But I still think its far too easy for lunatics to get guns like this. On the other hand I don't think that repealing the second amendment could stop all the bad people from obtaining guns and than good, law abiding people would have a much harder time defending themselves when they encounter a bad guy with a gun who is intent on murdering them, or other innocent people.

50 SteveMcG  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:30:57pm

re: #45 PhillyPretzel

Thank you for telling me. I should have said you cannot learn these things in the Philadelphia School System.

You know, I'm half tempted to look at Attytood, but I just know what that comment section will look like.

51 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:31:46pm

re: #33 sattv4u2

I think there should be a mandatory 14 day (minimum) waiting period before you get a permit. Longer for a carry and conceal

Just mho!!!

And BTW,, if you "need" a permit in under 14 days, you have bigger problems than "needing" a gun

52 Steve  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:31:59pm

How many people are killed/injured with knives each year? I am not trying to be facetious just trying to get things in perspective.

Krager: All Americans are allowed to own one quill pen and one bottle of ink. After that start filling out forms:-P

53 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:32:13pm

re: #42 Shiplord Kirel

There is no positive discourse on guns in California.
NONE!

54 sagehen  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:33:08pm

re: #9 William Barnett-Lewis

A car is a privilege. You do not have a right to one according to the courts.

The constitution says you do have a right to own a gun.

The constitution also says you have a right to vote, doesn't mean there's not a bunch of state legislatures making people jump through hoops, trying to make it tougher for the people they'd prefer not exercise that right.

55 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:33:22pm

re: #52 Steve

How many people are killed/injured with knives each year? I am not trying to be facetious just trying to get things in perspective.

Krager: All Americans are allowed to own one quill pen and one bottle of ink. After that start filling out forms:-P

Eileen Hallahan is STILL pissed at me for dipping her pigtails in mine 45 years after the fact!!!

56 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:34:45pm

re: #53 Dancing along the light of day

There is no positive discourse on guns in California.
NONE!

More's the pity.

57 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:35:14pm

Anyone else having trouble opening GOOGLE?
I've tried in FireFox as well as IE

58 Majacita  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:35:25pm

The numbers of dead for each incident are rising. It has become easier and easier to kill more people. In the shooting at my school, six people were shot, three died. This was before the ban ended. If he'd had access to assault weapons, even more could have died. The assault weapons ban made sense, but I don't think the NRA will ever allow another one.

59 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:36:14pm

re: #54 sagehen

The constitution also says you have a right to vote, doesn't mean there's not a bunch of state legislatures making people jump through hoops, trying to make it tougher for the people they'd prefer not exercise that right.

That doesn't change the basic principal.

60 S.D.  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:36:54pm

Why do we need to make it so easy to own weapons of mass murder?
An assault rifle with a 100 round mag is only for killing people, not hunting.

If you have one, IMO, either your up to no good or you need a bumper sticker saying 'I'm overcompensating'.

Also, I don't think a background check is a 2nd amendment violation, but that's just me.

61 SpaceJesus  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:37:24pm

here's pretty much how i see the situation in the u.s.

Image: YsgY2.jpg

62 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:38:02pm

Do we even know how many people were shot with what? Before we blame a specific class of firearm (and its a contrived class at that), lets first know which firearms did what damage.

63 SpaceJesus  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:38:19pm

also, anything other than shotguns and hunting rifles should be banned by federal law. no handguns and none of this swat team shit.

64 jaunte  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:39:11pm

re: #54 sagehen

The constitution also says you have a right to vote, doesn't mean there's not a bunch of state legislatures making people jump through hoops, trying to make it tougher for the people they'd prefer not exercise that right.

So the principle of hoop-jumping has been established, we're just quibbling over which amendments.

65 Targetpractice  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:39:20pm

re: #62 Dark_Falcon

Do we even know how many people were shot with what? Before we blame a specific class of firearm (and its a contrived class at that), lets first know which firearms did what damage.

Is that how we're going to handle these things going forward? Still arguing over which weapon did more damage and legislating based upon that?

66 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:39:37pm

re: #63 SpaceJesus

also, anything other than shotguns and hunting rifles should be banned by federal law. no handguns and none of this swat team shit.

That would not pass Constitutional muster.

67 Kragar  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:39:44pm

re: #62 Dark_Falcon

Do we even know how many people were shot with what? Before we blame a specific class of firearm (and its a contrived class at that), lets first know which firearms did what damage.

The assault rifle jammed, too many rounds being fired too fast.

Obviously the assault rifle should be taken off the list then.
/

68 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:39:53pm

The 2nd Amendment is more difficult to understand in a modern context than, say, the 1st or 8th amendments. We don't have an utter terror of a tyrant using a standing army to enslave the whole population; given the events of the English Civil War and the events on the Continent during the religious wars where unarmed peasants died but armed freemen at least had a fighting chance.

The 2nd amendment has that clause in it. You know - well regulated militia - that gets ignored a lot these days except by people who want to claim only the National Guard can be armed. The Founders, with their faith in Militia instead of Standing Armies, had a very different & very specific idea of what a "well regulated" militia ment. Look at the Militia Acts of 1794 - they required every free citizen (ie white male over 21) to own a gun in the military's caliber, 20 rounds of ammo & drill twice a year. The latter, esepecially, is why the original concept of "well regulated" ie disciplined in marching and fighting in the European style, fell by the wayside after the end of the war of 1812. Especially since the militia almost cost us the war on several occasions and the regulars only barely held on for the draw because the British were too busy with Napoleon to give us a proper defeat.

So what does well regulated mean in the modern context? Should we issue a M16 to every adult citizen who can pass NICS and promises to train twice a year? That's what ol' TJ would say, I'd bet.

I like the idea of requiring training and licensing. But by the same token, I think that schools should be required to give that training to all high school aged kids that want it much as they do drivers ed or, in some states, hunter safety. Combined with proper national ID (passport, drivers license, firearms license, voter id, single payer insurance id ;) it would be a reasonable regulation without infringing upon anything. I'd also want the automatic weapons registry reopened but that's another story...

The real problem with that is that it is, arguably, unconstitutional because it would prevent at least some from exercising their right without due process if simply not having the license prevented ownership and use.

And then we're back where we began...

69 SpaceJesus  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:40:49pm

re: #66 Dark_Falcon


we pass the law, then we get justices on the court who understand history and critical thinking.

70 Kragar  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:40:56pm

re: #66 Dark_Falcon

That would not pass Constitutional muster.

OK, lets talk about the well regulated militia part. All firearm owners must register and join a federally regulated militia.

Nice and constitutional.

71 deadletterboy  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:42:23pm

re: #70 Kragar

Living in Michigan, I can only imagine how my local militias would lose their s**t if they were forced to be federally regulated. That being said, I agree.

72 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:43:58pm

Why don't we make it easier to get mental health help for those you know who need it.

I had a friend, years ago, whose bi-polar condition went pear-shaped. She thought she was the president of the US at one point. She was not doing well.

Her husband got her admitted, but he couldn't keep her there (well, who can keep the president locked up) because she wasn't suicidal.

He kept her there by informing her, bluntly, that if she left, he would take the boys and leave. That threat kept her there, working with the doctors.

73 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:44:29pm

re: #66 Dark_Falcon

That would not pass Constitutional muster.

The fact of the matter is, the interpretation of the 2nd Amendment is simply wrong, if indeed that interpretation is to create a cult of gun worship and an environment where thousands of innocent Americans must be sacrificed in order to maintain an increasingly archaic 'right'.

And if such mass sacrifice is, in fact, the intent of the Constitution, then your Constitution is wrong. Morally and ethically so.

I realise that I can say that because I'm not American by birth. For those of you that are to say, or even think, so is rank heresy. I get that.

74 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:44:31pm

re: #67 Kragar

The assault rifle jammed, too many rounds being fired too fast.

Obviously the assault rifle should be taken off the list then.
/

I'm just saying that its worth knowing what happened.

As for me: Disarmament = Weakness. Weakness + Wealth = Death.

That's overly simplistic, you say? Maybe, but it sums up my feelings.

75 Achilles Tang  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:45:21pm

re: #43 William Barnett-Lewis

As an illustration of the nonsense in this whole thing here's a neat antique type of gun manufactured in the 30's. It's a single shot .410 called a Handy Gun, I read this was a handy small shotgun for farmers and the like to maybe deal with snakes. However they call it a sawed off shotgun because of the short barrel which makes it completely illegal, unless registered before 1934 or something.

Handy Gun

Yet an insane person can go out and legally buy military level weapons that are a thousand times more lethal.

The stupidity hurts.

76 deadletterboy  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:45:46pm

re: #72 Mostly sane, most of the time.

The problem there is that what about loners? What about people, like Holmes, who just seemed relatively normal? While his mother obviously knew something was wrong, it must not have struck her as this bad. And well, if someone lives apart from other people, they have no one who is going to realize what's going on.

I really can't construct a well-worded thought tonight.

77 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:46:04pm

re: #70 Kragar

OK, lets talk about the well regulated militia part. All firearm owners must register and join a federally regulated militia.

Nice and constitutional.

Militias were state only, by federal law. Militia acts of 1794 as signed by G. Washington. A Federal "militia" would be another standing army.

78 Targetpractice  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:46:26pm

re: #68 William Barnett-Lewis

Always figured a system like Switzerland's might be the best idea, as gun ownership is tied to military service and thus to proper training and responsible usage, but otherwise strictly regulated to the point that you can't own ammunition that is not registered at the moment of purchase.

79 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:47:02pm

re: #77 William Barnett-Lewis

A Federal "militia" would be another standing army.

Poor guys

You would think they would let them sit every now and then!!

80 Interesting Times  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:47:57pm
81 Iwouldprefernotto  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:49:27pm

re: #80 Interesting Times

[Embedded content]

Rick Warren is still an ass.

82 Majacita  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:49:33pm

re: #78 Targetpractice

I like this idea. Has Switzerland ever had any mass shootings? I don't think so.

83 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:49:38pm

re: #75 Achilles Tang

As an illustration of the nonsense in this whole thing here's a neat antique type of gun manufactured in the 30's. It's a single shot .410 called a Handy Gun, I read is was a handy small shotgun for farmers and like to maybe deal with snakes. However they call it a sawed off shotgun because of the short barrel which makes it completely illegal, unless registered before 1934 or something.

Handy Gun

Yet an insane person can go out and legally buy military level weapons that are a thousand times more lethal.

The stupidity hurts.

Under the National Firearms Act of 1934, if one lives in a place where such a weapon is legal one can buy it (new or used) if you register it with the ATF prior to taking possession of it and pay a $200 transfer tax.

BTW, the $200 amount was set in 1934, and it was intended to double the price of a Thompson submachinegun. But the tax was never increased, and as a result its bite has been greatly curtailed by inflation.

84 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:50:09pm

re: #83 Dark_Falcon

Under the National Firearms Act of 1934, if one lives in a place where such a weapon is legal one can buy it (new or used) if you register it with the ATF prior to taking possession of it and pay a $200 transfer tax.

BTW, the $200 amount was set in 1934, and it was intended to double the price of a Thompson submachinegun. But the tax was never increased, and as a result its bite has been greatly curtailed by inflation.

Increase the tax, you say? Sorry, but Mr. Norquist says that violates the pledge.

85 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:50:55pm

re: #73 Renaissance_Man

It is deeply rooted in our history, and has not evolved with the times.

86 sagehen  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:51:10pm

re: #52 Steve

How many people are killed/injured with knives each year? I am not trying to be facetious just trying to get things in perspective.

Krager: All Americans are allowed to own one quill pen and one bottle of ink. After that start filling out forms:-P

In NYC, the murder rate through the 80's and early 90's was more than 2000/year, 3/4 of them with guns. In 1993 we started enforcing gun control -- a license requires passing a safety test, a marksmanship test, and a background check; and carrying unlicensed lands you in court.

Oddly enough, there's still no shortage of guns here. Hundreds of thousands of guns. We just require that people treat such weapons with a degree of respect. The murder rate has gone down every year for 20 years; it's now down to about 500/year, only a few dozen of which are by gun. There's been no change in the number of stabbings, stranglings, or flinging people off rooftops.

87 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:51:44pm

re: #78 Targetpractice

Always figured a system like Switzerland's might be the best idea, as gun ownership is tied to military service and thus to proper training and responsible usage, but otherwise strictly regulated to the point that you can't own ammunition that is not registered at the moment of purchase.

I've discussed similar ideas for here in the past. I've got a page somewhere on the topic. It wasn't well received here IIRC.

88 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:51:44pm

re: #80 Interesting Times

We'd have trouble peeling bananas too. So what?

89 Kragar  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:52:27pm

re: #77 William Barnett-Lewis

Militias were state only, by federal law. Militia acts of 1794 as signed by G. Washington. A Federal "militia" would be another standing army.

Because never in history has a state program had to comply with federal regulations.

90 Targetpractice  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:53:44pm

re: #82 Majacita

I like this idea. Has Switzerland ever had any mass shootings? I don't think so.

There was one back in 2001, but that's the most recent I've found.

91 Interesting Times  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:54:28pm

re: #88 Dancing along the light of day

We'd have trouble peeling bananas too. So what?

The tweet was a joke, not a literal statement.

92 Achilles Tang  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:54:29pm

re: #83 Dark_Falcon

I came across this when searching for older shotguns (I like old stuff), but as far as I could determine it can only be registered to someone new if it was registered previously, otherwise it is illegal and must be destroyed. Apparently they made thousands of these but not many are registered. I saw one ad for sale at $1500, with registration (plus the $200 fee), so I don't think you are right if one doesn't have the prior registration.

Edited: and I believe that is a federal law, not state, so I don't understand your "where legal".

93 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:54:36pm

re: #86 sagehen

In NYC, the murder rate through the 80's and early 90's was more than 2000/year, 3/4 of them with guns. In 1993 we started enforcing gun control -- a license requires passing a safety test, a marksmanship test, and a background check; and carrying unlicensed lands you in court.

Oddly enough, there's still no shortage of guns here. Hundreds of thousands of guns. We just require that people treat such weapons with a degree of respect. The murder rate has gone down every year for 20 years; it's now down to about 500/year, only a few dozen of which are by gun. There's been no change in the number of stabbings, stranglings, or flinging people off rooftops.

The other question, though, is how much of that decrease is from the Freakanomics Effect? IE decreased numbers of unwanted children (via more birth control & abortion) = decreased criminals later.

94 palomino  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:55:26pm

re: #52 Steve

How many people are killed/injured with knives each year? I am not trying to be facetious just trying to get things in perspective.

Krager: All Americans are allowed to own one quill pen and one bottle of ink. After that start filling out forms:-P

How many mass murderers use knives as their weapon of choice? OK, maybe OJ, but he only killed two people (that we know of), so it's not really a murder spree.

Mass killers choose guns for a reason: efficiency and ability to kill from a long distance. Charles Whitman probably would have had a much tougher time killing 15 Texans from the bell tower at UT if he had been armed with knives.

Same goes for the fuckhead in Aurora. What are the chances he could have stabbed 71 people in just 2 minutes?

95 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:56:13pm

re: #92 Achilles Tang

I came across this when searching for older shotguns (I like old stuff), but as far as I could determine it can only be registered to someone new if it was registered previously, otherwise it is illegal and must be destroyed. Apparently they made thousands of these but not many are registered. I saw one ad for sale at $1500, with registration (plus the $200 fee), so I don't think you are right if one doesn't have the prior registration.

If the gun was not registered when the NFA was passed, then yes it is illegal. But a new-build gun of the same specifications could be legally manufactured and owned if registered.

96 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:56:40pm

I am a gun fancier, but I tend to like .22s and single shot rifles, which puts me way outside the assault weapon cult.
This is my favorite:
Ruger No. 1 rifle, 45/70
Hand-polished wood and burnished steel. One shot, then you have to open the exquisitely precise breech mechanism and re-load it. It costs as much as an AR-15. AR fans do not understand guns like this, they think I'm nuts to settle for one shot when I could have any number. That's right, they're preparing to fight UN troops in the streets of Lubbock or a zombie apocalypse and they think I'm nuts.
My preferences may have to do with having been in the military for a big part of my adult life. Automatic weapons look too much like work to me, and some of the associations are not exactly pleasant.

I've seen people go into some kind of wild, ecstatic trance firing full auto guns at the local range. Rock and roll, baby! The experience of firing an automatic weapon for real, against people who are shooting back, is very different. The noise is deafening since you can't wear earmuffs, the powder smoke is like the fumes of hell. It burns you eyes and blackens your skin. The combination of intense concentration and intense fear can bring exhaustion in seconds. You have to keep it up, though, or you die. It doesn't just sound and smell like hell, it IS hell. That's the truth, folks.

97 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:57:46pm

re: #89 Kragar

Because never in history has a state program had to comply with federal regulations.

You'd still have to allow anyone who can pass NICS join and then be able to purchase weapons. Would this change anything other than create another layer of paperwork to sit alongside the ATF 4473's that the gun stores keep forever?

98 Achilles Tang  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:57:53pm

re: #95 Dark_Falcon

If the gun was not registered when the NFA was passed, then yes it is illegal. But a new-build gun of the same specifications could be legally manufactured and owned if registered.

My brain hurts.

99 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:57:55pm

re: #93 William Barnett-Lewis

The other question, though, is how much of that decrease is from the Freakanomics Effect? IE decreased numbers of unwanted children (via more birth control & abortion) = decreased criminals later.

Another factor to be considered is an increase in the rate New York sent people to prison. It's trite to say but it has validity to note that a thug locked up in Sing-Sing cannot carry out a drive-by shooting.

100 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 6:58:40pm

re: #96 Shiplord Kirel

The noise is deafening since you can't wear earmuffs

Huh?

I've never been to a range where earmuffs (gear) aren't mandatory!

101 palomino  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:00:03pm

re: #86 sagehen

In NYC, the murder rate through the 80's and early 90's was more than 2000/year, 3/4 of them with guns. In 1993 we started enforcing gun control -- a license requires passing a safety test, a marksmanship test, and a background check; and carrying unlicensed lands you in court.

Oddly enough, there's still no shortage of guns here. Hundreds of thousands of guns. We just require that people treat such weapons with a degree of respect. The murder rate has gone down every year for 20 years; it's now down to about 500/year, only a few dozen of which are by gun. There's been no change in the number of stabbings, stranglings, or flinging people off rooftops.

Very good point. The permissive gun laws of rural places like Vermont and Wyoming (respectively, one of the bluest and one of the reddest of states) don't necessarily make sense for an urban area like NYC, and vice versa.

102 Interesting Times  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:00:08pm

re: #100 sattv4u2

The noise is deafening since you can't wear earmuffs

Huh?

I've never been to a range where earmuffs (gear) aren't mandatory!

Shiplord is talking about a real-life fight scenario, not a range - see full context:

The experience of firing an automatic weapon for real, against people who are shooting back, is very different. The noise is deafening since you can't wear earmuffs

103 deadletterboy  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:00:24pm

re: #100 sattv4u2

I think he's referring to a livefire situation.

104 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:00:43pm

re: #102 Interesting Times

Shiplord is talking about a real-life fight scenario, not a range - see full context:

THANKS

getting blurry eyed here

105 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:01:20pm

As a lady, who inherited a bunch of guns, in California, including DOJ licensed assault weapons, I wanted his precious machines to go to a good home. Let me tell you how VERY VERY DIFFICULT it is to sell weapons and feel safe about doing so. I just wanted his special things to go to someone who wanted them.

106 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:01:35pm

re: #98 Achilles Tang

My brain hurts.

Simple way to understand it:

Any NFA covered firearms not registered when the act was passed, or when they were added to the act are contraband and must be destroyed for surrendered to the ATF.

New build sound suppressors, and short-barreled rifles and shotguns may only be owned if they are registered with the ATF and the transfer tax is paid.

This is a major simplification, but it gives the basics.

107 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:01:36pm

If you can't build it with an elastic, a clothes pin and a stick of gum, you can't shoot it.

108 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:02:10pm

re: #100 sattv4u2


The noise is deafening since you can't wear earmuffs

Huh?

I've never been to a range where earmuffs (gear) aren't mandatory!

I was talking about combat. See the sentence before that one.

109 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:02:28pm

re: #96 Shiplord Kirel

Nice. I want a #1 RSI in 7x57 someday as my deer/elk rifle.

My current favorites are a Winchester 94, a single action Blackhawk in .45 Colt & a 16 gauge Ithaca 37 so I'm not too hip on black guns either.

But there are a wide variety of firearms and a wide variety of shooting sports. We've seen what a failure the AWB was and to try and prohibit everything would make the "War On Drugs" look like a massive success.

Education and mental health reform are the only things I see as being politically viable AND capable of gaining positive results.

110 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:02:32pm

re: #105 Dancing along the light of day

including DOJ licensed assault weapons

You had OJ's assault weapons!?!?!

///

111 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:03:09pm

re: #108 Shiplord Kirel

I was talking about combat. See the sentence before that one.

yeah ,
sorry

see 104

112 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:03:18pm

re: #105 Dancing along the light of day

As a lady, who inherited a bunch of guns, in California, including DOJ licensed assault weapons, I wanted his precious machines to go to a good home. Let me tell you how VERY VERY DIFFICULT it is to sell weapons and feel safe about doing so. I just wanted his special things to go to someone who wanted them.

Your actions were those of an honorable lady. Was it you father who owned them?

113 AntonSirius  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:03:24pm

It's a truism on the right that unions, even if they once served an important purpose, have long outlived their usefulness and now are a destructive force on the American political scene.

I think it's time to have the same conversation about the NRA.

114 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:03:27pm

re: #110 sattv4u2

You are getting punchy. Time for a snack, or a nap?

115 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:03:45pm

re: #114 Dancing along the light of day

You are getting punchy. Time for a snack, or a nap?

yes!

116 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:04:34pm

re: #115 sattv4u2

yes!

A snap.

117 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:04:45pm

re: #116 b_sharp

A snap.

Ginger?

118 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:05:32pm

re: #117 sattv4u2

Ginger?

Ginger snack.

119 Kragar  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:05:43pm

re: #117 sattv4u2

Ginger?

Soulless.

120 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:05:54pm

Nothing is going to happen as long as the NRA can determine who wins or loses in politics. Money and the need to stay in power trumps passing reasonable legislation.

So long as politicians keep the populace paranoid about commies, black helicopters, and the dark hoards who hate us for our freedom, we are going to have guys stock piling ammo and MREs in their fall-out shelters.

121 CriticalDragon1177  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:05:55pm

Charles Johnson

If you didn't notice our conversation, Someone who calls himself @dolphincatcher on Twitter wanted me to tell you he says high. He wanted to participate in this discussing, but he says that registration is closed right now. Anyway, I hope he can join. He seemed interested.

122 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:06:19pm

re: #119 Kragar

Soulless.

Aah, a Maryanne fan!

123 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:07:05pm

re: #118 b_sharp

Ginger snack.

Is that what Gilligan called her?

124 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:08:57pm

re: #123 sattv4u2

Is that what Gilligan called her?

Only when the Skipper was playing with the Minnow.

125 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:09:01pm

re: #123 sattv4u2

Is that what Gilligan called her?

SMACK!

126 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:09:31pm

re: #124 b_sharp

Only when the Skipper was playing with the Minnow.

No wonder he called him his "lil buddy"!

127 Kragar  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:10:47pm

Great, now we're talking about the 7 deadly sins.

128 palomino  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:12:10pm

re: #120 OhNoZombies!

Nothing is going to happen as long as the NRA can determine who wins or loses in politics. Money and the need to stay in power trumps passing reasonable legislation.

So long as politicians keep the populace paranoid about commies, black helicopters, and the dark hoards who hate us for our freedom, we are going to have guys stock piling ammo and MREs in their fall-out shelters.

Guns are such a deeply ingrained part of our culture that I don't see changes soon, absent a much larger tragedy. The love of guns in and of itself isn't necessarily a problem; it's the notion that guns are a great problem solver, as well as the fantasy that homeowners with their small arms will prevent martial law and a military-backed dictatorship from taking over.

129 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:13:09pm

re: #127 Kragar

Great, now we're talking about the 7 deadly sins.

The Skipper, Gilligan, The Professor, MaryAnne and Ginger, Mr and Mrs Howell!!

By golly you're right

There ARE 7 of them!!

130 Jaerik  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:13:17pm

I'm deeply ambivalent about gun control, so I can't really offer much insight.

However, I do want to point out the absurdity of one argument, which is that gun ownership somehow prevents the government from oppressing you.

The US government has a military more powerful and expensive than every other nation in the world combined. It has enough nuclear weapons to destroy every major city in the world many times over. It has tens of thousands of cruise missiles capable of obliterating you and your entire neighborhood with the push of a button from a thousand miles away.

Trust me, it's not fear of your 9mm and closet full of ammo that's preventing the government from "oppressing" you. And getting one more gun -- or even half a dozen AR-15s -- isn't going to make you any freer.

131 Kragar  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:14:21pm

re: #129 sattv4u2

The Skipper, Gilligan, The Professor, MaryAnne and Ginger, Mr and Mrs Howell!!

By golly you're right

There ARE 7 of them!!

Skipper - Wrath
Gilligan - Gluttony
Professor - Pride
Mr Howell - Greed
Mrs. Howell - Sloth
Ginger - Lust
Maryanne - Envy

Its all right there.

132 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:14:43pm

re: #129 sattv4u2

The Skipper, Gilligan, The Professor, MaryAnne and Ginger, Mr and Mrs Howell!!

By golly you're right

There ARE 7 of them!!

Sorry, but I have no intention of doing all 7.

133 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:15:05pm

re: #131 Kragar

Skipper - Wrath
Gilligan - Gluttony
Professor - Pride
Mr Howell - Greed
Mrs. Howell - Sloth
Ginger - Lust
Maryanne - Envy

Its all right there.

DING DING DING

You win the Internet!!

134 palomino  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:15:47pm

re: #131 Kragar

Skipper - Wrath
Gilligan - Gluttony
Professor - Pride
Mr Howell - Greed
Mrs. Howell - Sloth
Ginger - Lust
Maryanne - Envy

Its all right there.

All good, but what was Gilligan's gluttony aimed at? Certainly not food, Bob Denver was built like a stick figure.

135 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:15:57pm

re: #132 b_sharp

Sorry, but I have no intention of doing all 7.

aw c'mon

The Skipper and Gilligan in a grass skirt ,,, after a few Coconut Rum punches!!!

136 CriticalDragon1177  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:16:01pm

re: #121 CriticalDragon1177

Charles Johnson

If you didn't notice our conversation, Someone who calls himself @dolphincatcher on Twitter wanted me to tell you he says high. He wanted to participate in this discussing, but he says that registration is closed right now. Anyway, I hope he can join. He seemed interested.

Sorry, I assumed @dolphincatcher was a man, when she was actually a women. Sorry about that.

137 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:16:13pm

re: #9 William Barnett-Lewis

A car is a privilege. You do not have a right to one according to the courts.

The constitution says you do have a right to own a gun.

That doesn't mean that all you have to know about it is which end the bang comes out of.

138 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:16:52pm

re: #135 sattv4u2

aw c'mon

The Skipper and Gilligan in a grass skirt ,,, after a few Coconut Rum punches!!!

NTTAWWT!!

139 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:16:59pm

re: #135 sattv4u2

aw c'mon

The Skipper and Gilligan in a grass skirt ,,, after a few Coconut Rum punches!!!

I'm too busy doing lust and envy.

140 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:17:10pm

re: #128 palomino

At the same time, lets not run firearms down too much. The throwing out of Chicago's handgun ban has been for the good, as legally owned handguns have since been used to thwart a modest number of home invasions or store robberies (it is lawful for the owner of a business to keep a gun there) and no such guns have yet been used in a murder (though at least one legally registered handgun was used by its owner to commit suicide).

141 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:17:28pm

re: #139 b_sharp

I'm too busy doing lust and envy.

My luck. I'm left with sloth!!

142 engineer cat  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:17:57pm

re: #127 Kragar

Great, now we're talking about the 7 deadly sins.

if the seven deadly sins were really deadly, we'd all be dead

143 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:18:05pm

re: #32 Cap'n Magic

Doesn't CO have concealed carry? Granted, the situation presented isn't the best to be thrown into when it went down, but still...

CO does have concealed carry. Apparently, at least according to some sources, Cinemax has a company policy against non-LEOs bringing in guns.

144 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:18:15pm

re: #141 sattv4u2

My luck. I'm left with sloth!!

Just take your time, it'll come.

145 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:18:21pm

re: #135 sattv4u2

aw c'mon

The Skipper and Gilligan in a grass skirt ,,, after a few Coconut Rum punches!!!

Gah! Get me brain bleach, quick!

146 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:19:01pm

re: #144 b_sharp

Just take your time, it'll come.

I'm not worried about how much time I take

I'm worried if sloth HAS time left!!!

147 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:19:13pm

re: #76 deadletterboy

The problem there is that what about loners? What about people, like Holmes, who just seemed relatively normal? While his mother obviously knew something was wrong, it must not have struck her as this bad. And well, if someone lives apart from other people, they have no one who is going to realize what's going on.

I really can't construct a well-worded thought tonight.

If anyone had known he was this bad, they could have legally forced hospitalization.

I'm thinking more the type that people are thinking, "He needs help," but they don't know how bad it is.

148 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:19:28pm

re: #142 engineer cat

if the seven deadly sins were really deadly, we'd all be dead

They're only deadly if you're an expert at them. I'm so non-expert I have to practice every day.

149 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:19:43pm

re: #128 palomino

Guns are such a deeply ingrained part of our culture that I don't see changes soon, absent a much larger tragedy. The love of guns in and of itself isn't necessarily a problem; it's the notion that guns are a great problem solver, as well as the fantasy that homeowners with their small arms will prevent martial law and a military-backed dictatorship from taking over.

While I then to agree overall, there go the Syrians. The seem to be making enough of a go of it that the regulars are defecting to them. Small arms and IED's can make things quite difficult.

150 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:20:01pm

re: #29 compound_Idaho

I took gun safety in public school during normal class time in my "life time sports class". The range was in the basement of the high school. I suspect those days are long gone.

The Catholic high school I used to teach at used to have a sort of improvised range in the basement. Father just set it up one day for the shooting club. This was about the same period my father and his buddies were bringing their Civil Air Patrol guns to school and storing them in their lockers (mostly) during the days.

Yes, those days are long past now.

151 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:20:30pm

re: #27 jaunte

No one is insisting on the 'well regulated militia' language in the 2nd.

I do. I think militia membership should be a requirement of gun ownership.

But no one listens to me.

152 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:20:33pm

re: #142 engineer cat

if the seven deadly sins were really deadly, we'd all be dead

'Deadly' doesn't mean it automatically kills you, as witness the main topic of the thread; Some of the people Holmes shot with deadly weapons survived. But anger, greed, sloth and the rest can kill, and that is why they are called deadly.

153 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:21:14pm

re: #151 SanFranciscoZionist

But no one listens to me

I'm sorry
Did you say something!?!?

154 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:21:26pm

re: #152 Dark_Falcon

'Deadly' doesn't mean it automatically kills you, as witness the main topic of the thread; Some of the people Holmes shot with deadly weapons survived. But anger, greed, sloth and the rest can kill, and that is why they are called deadly.

Meh.

How do you know without trying?

155 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:21:35pm

Not that it's typical, but men with guns did defend their neighborhoods during the King riots out of real necessity. A necessity that should not have occurred but did. LAPD was overwhelmed, the national guard was late to the city. Unfortunately that could happen again.

Youtube Video
156 engineer cat  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:21:49pm

sloth

how come Sloth is the only one that gets its own animal?

157 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:22:06pm

re: #53 Dancing along the light of day

There is no positive discourse on guns in California.
NONE!

Is there much anywhere?

158 Kragar  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:22:13pm

re: #134 palomino

All good, but what was Gilligan's gluttony aimed at? Certainly not food, Bob Denver was built like a stick figure.

Check again. Gilligan was all about getting food all the time.

159 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:22:28pm

re: #149 William Barnett-Lewis

While I then to agree overall, there go the Syrians. The seem to be making enough of a go of it that the regulars are defecting to them. Small arms and IED's can make things quite difficult.

True, but we (the US) have shown how such things can be overcome. And the explosives used in an IED are illegal here.

160 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:22:57pm

re: #158 Kragar

Check again. Gilligan was all about getting food all the time.

Maybe he was bulimic!!

161 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:24:43pm

re: #74 Dark_Falcon

I'm just saying that its worth knowing what happened.

As for me: Disarmament = Weakness. Weakness + Wealth = Death.

That's overly simplistic, you say? Maybe, but it sums up my feelings.

The weapon strength of the United States does not lie in civilians having AR-15s (or shotguns for that matter), and no responsibilities to the country regarding them.

We have a standing army, which the Founders were largely NOT in favor of.

162 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:25:46pm

re: #155 Daniel Ballard

Not that it's typical, but men with guns did defend their neighborhoods with AR-15 type guns during the King riots out of real necessity. A necessity that should not have occurred but did. LAPD was overwhelmed, the national guard was late to the city. Unfortunately that could happen again.

[Embedded content]

Amazing video. A weapon that nobody seriously proposes banning, the 12 gauge pump shotgun, would have been a better choice in that extraordinary situation.

163 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:25:51pm

re: #82 Majacita

I like this idea. Has Switzerland ever had any mass shootings? I don't think so.

Yes.

[Link: www.wsws.org...]

164 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:26:39pm

re: #160 sattv4u2

Tech question for ya-Watching the cable channel Palladia, a concert channel. The sound is out of sync in some scenes from the Rush-Time Machine concert. Could that happen as part of the distribution or would that flaw necessarily be found in the content as provided?

165 engineer cat  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:28:04pm

i haven't checked, but i don't believe anyone yet has stopped one of these psycho mass murderers with a weapon carried for protection

166 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:28:17pm

re: #121 CriticalDragon1177

Charles Johnson

If you didn't notice our conversation, Someone who calls himself @dolphincatcher on Twitter wanted me to tell you he says high. He wanted to participate in this discussing, but he says that registration is closed right now. Anyway, I hope he can join. He seemed interested.

Uh... that's one of the psychos from the stalker blog.

167 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:28:23pm

re: #142 engineer cat

if the seven deadly sins were really deadly, we'd all be dead

We all die of them sooner or later.

And gravity. That too.

168 palomino  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:28:25pm

re: #140 Dark_Falcon

At the same time, lets not run firearms down too much. The throwing out of Chicago's handgun ban has been for the good, as legally owned handguns have since been used to thwart a modest number of home invasions or store robberies (it is lawful for the owner of a business to keep a gun there) and no such guns have yet been used in a murder (though at least one legally registered handgun was used by its owner to commit suicide).

No, I'm not in favor of some outright ban. And homeowners and business owners especially have a totally legit need for guns if they desire. But the idea that any restrictions/regulations on guns are an unconscioable 2nd Amendment violation is rather extreme, and not what the SC held. But it's essentially the position of the NRA.

169 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:30:01pm

re: #164 Daniel Ballard

Tech question for ya-Watching the cable channel Palladia, a concert channel. The sound is out of sync in some scenes from the Rush-Time Machine concert. Could that happen as part of the distribution or would that flaw necessarily be found in the content as provided?

The Audio/ Video has to go through several pieces of equipment even before it goes 'on air"

In all of those there are auto lip synch monitors. If the "auto" is turned off someone has to manually adjust the audio + or - "x' amount on miliseconds to compensate

((NOTE ,, the "auto" function in most units is relatively useless. We keep all ours on manual and during check in/ pre air time we do lip synch tests))

170 palomino  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:32:24pm

re: #155 Daniel Ballard

Not that it's typical, but men with guns did defend their neighborhoods during the King riots out of real necessity. A necessity that should not have occurred but did. LAPD was overwhelmed, the national guard was late to the city. Unfortunately that could happen again.

[Embedded content]

And, if you remember, that insane police chief Darryl Gates actually pulled some of his officers OUT of the most violent areas, only making the situation worse for business owners in dicier neighborhoods. The man was a fool ("we like lesbians in the LAPD due to their upper body strength"), and the city's been better off since he finally (after 20 years? as chief) left.

171 freetoken  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:32:37pm

Yes, even without guns there will be violence and murder. Don't have a gun? Maybe a tire iron will do:

Florida ‘Jesus’ threatens ‘Antichrist’ neighbor with tire iron

Anyway, the incidence of violent crime, especially murder, is lower in many of the other nations of the industrialized world than here, and nearly all of them highly restrict gun ownership.

172 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:32:50pm

Gotta go read bedtime story & get the (not so little anymore at 10 1/2) little guy to bed. BBL.

173 Pawn of the Oppressor  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:33:28pm

I'm not sure where I stand anymore.

On the one hand, I fully support our constitutional right to bear arms, yadda yadda, I legally carry, and I do own a scary black rifle.

On the other hand... Just what the fuck is wrong with this country that I even honestly feel the need to carry a gun in the first place? I don't *like* having to make a concealed handgun part of my daily security arrangements. We have a huge cultural problem in that our whole relationship with crime, punishment, and personal responsibility is completely screwed up. Freedom unfortunately tends to mean that crazy and stupid people are granted equal liberty to operate destructive machinery as responsible, sane people (and in my world "destructive machinery" includes cars as well as things like guns - to whoever above made the comparison between gun licensing and car licensing, speaking as a motorcycle rider, FYI our national training for safe motor vehicle operation is abysmal).

I don't understand why we as Americans seem to have a knee-jerk "anti" reaction to any kind of introspection on issues like this. Partly it's because Americans can't stand being told that they can't do something.

I'm to the point where I could almost agree to a high-capacity magazine restriction *in theory*, even though I think enforceability would be impossible. Unless the Chinese landed troops in my backyard tomorrow, or the Zombie Apocalypse comes, well... No, I don't really need 100-round drums of ammo.

Either way I have faith that absolutely nothing will change, anyway. :(

174 Kragar  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:34:43pm

re: #171 freetoken

Humanity has never been at a loss for methods of violence. The trick is controlling rate and intensity.

175 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:35:12pm

re: #167 SanFranciscoZionist

We all die of them sooner or later.

And gravity. That too.

And magnets, you forgot magnets!

176 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:35:47pm

re: #161 SanFranciscoZionist

The weapon strength of the United States does not lie in civilians having AR-15s (or shotguns for that matter), and no responsibilities to the country regarding them.

We have a standing army, which the Founders were largely NOT in favor of.

The more I think about it, this is the real problem with our modern relationship to the Second Amendment. It's all me me me. I have a right, no one can infringe on it. I can buy guns, no one can check on them or tell me no.

And then it gets justified with appeals to self-defense, and the idea that the Constitution's sole point was for individuals to have weapons to keep the Gubmint away from their door.

But that disregards the key concept of social responsibility that lies behind the wording of the Second. It is not "An armed citizenry being necessary to avoid government abuses, and also for self-defense and really cool sporting purposes..." It is "A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state..."

There is a social contract clearly laid out in those words which doesn't get much respect from either side of the debate.

Some of these guys, someone banged on their door and said the British were coming, they'd say they didn't care, because Obama, and turn over and go back to sleep.

177 Kragar  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:36:14pm

re: #175 Dancing along the light of day

And magnets, you forgot magnets!

How do they work?

178 Raccoon City  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:36:18pm

re: #143 SanFranciscoZionist

CO does have concealed carry. Apparently, at least according to some sources, Cinemax has a company policy against non-LEOs bringing in guns.

A blog posted an article about Cinemark's policy which doesn't seem all that different from others. I can't think of a major shopping mall or theater that doesn't have a no-weapons policy. Many states allow private property owners to restrict weapons even from concealed carry license holders and I'm sure a lot of places do it because they don't want the liability of anything happening involving a firearm no matter who happens to be carrying it.

There was already an article (I think linked on Drudge) basically about how the theater chain was probably going to get sued because the shooter got past whatever security they might have had. You would think if the rabid concealed carry/2nd amendment lobby was so worked up about this they would sue the theater for having that policy and try to defend that position against what I'm sure would be incredibly angry public reaction to their lawsuit.

179 CriticalDragon1177  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:36:48pm

re: #125 Dark_Falcon

SMACK!

@dolphincatcher wanted me to tell you she said high. Do you two know each other?

180 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:37:09pm

re: #177 Kragar

How do they work?

9-5

Monday thru Friday

an hour for lunch

two 15 minute breaks!

181 CriticalDragon1177  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:37:57pm

re: #166 Charles Johnson

Uh... that's one of the psychos from the stalker blog.

Charles Johnson

It is? Sorry about that. I didn't realize there was anything wrong with her.

182 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:38:34pm

re: #181 CriticalDragon1177

Charles Johnson

It is? Sorry about that. I didn't realize there was anything wrong with her.

Would you realize if there was something wrong with you?

183 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:38:39pm

re: #170 palomino

He pulled them back to defend city assets, which were at risk. The National Guard was so under equipped and late they were joined by Marines to establish order. That was so weird, US Marines as riot control right here in Los Angeles. Surreal. They staged at the parking lot on Stadium way near Dodger stadium. Quite a sight.

184 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:39:33pm

re: #177 Kragar

How do they work?

MAGIC!

185 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:39:36pm

re: #170 palomino

And, if you remember, that insane police chief Darryl Gates actually pulled some of his officers OUT of the most violent areas, only making the situation worse for business owners in dicier neighborhoods. The man was a fool ("we like lesbians in the LAPD due to their upper body strength"), and the city's been better off since he finally (after 20 years? as chief) left.

Gates was a fool in many ways. LA had to wait for William Bratton to get the police chief who actually could do what gates always claimed was possible: that being a major reduction in crime. But Bratton was better able to work with the city government, and he cares more for results than his ego (though Bratton does have an ego).

186 Kragar  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:41:02pm

re: #182 sattv4u2

Would you realize if there was something wrong with you?

I talk to myself every day and never had a complaint.

187 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:41:15pm

re: #169 sattv4u2

Thanks. This Rush concert show is looking more like Hong Kong martial arts by the minute.

188 engineer cat  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:41:40pm

A well regulated militia being necessary

some persons have attempted to take this seriously but generally the results are rather ill regulated

189 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:42:24pm

re: #174 Kragar

Humanity has never been at a loss for methods of violence. The trick is controlling rate and intensity.

We've gone from the ability to kill each other one at a time and face to face to the ability to kill dozens at a time from a distance. It's too bad our ability to separate insane notions from rational ones hasn't kept pace.

190 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:42:48pm

re: #185 Dark_Falcon

We've had a lot of people run the PD here in LA, who came and did not understand the dynamics of the city.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

191 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:43:38pm

re: #182 sattv4u2

Would you realize if there was something wrong with you?

Every day, dude. Every day.

192 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:43:49pm

re: #187 Daniel Ballard

Thanks. This Rush concert show is looking more like Hong Kong martial arts by the minute.

Then someones asleep at the switch. We can even take pre-recorded material and mess with the lip synch

193 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:44:33pm

re: #191 b_sharp

Every day, dude. Every day.

Mirror mirror on the wall ,,,,,

194 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:44:43pm

re: #186 Kragar

I talk to myself every day and never had a complaint.

I thought you issued a noise warning to yourself once.

195 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:46:13pm

re: #186 Kragar

I talk to myself every day and never had a complaint.

I listen to the voices in my head

Sadly, I have not clue one as to what they are saying. I don't understand Aramaic!

196 palomino  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:46:34pm

re: #183 Daniel Ballard

He pulled them back to defend city assets, which were at risk. The National Guard was so under equipped and late they were joined by Marines to establish order. That was so weird, US Marines as riot control right here in Los Angeles. Surreal. They staged at the parking lot on Stadium way near Dodger stadium. Quite a sight.

I remember walking down to the 7-11 around the corner from my apt. in L.A. a day or two after the rioting started. On both sides of the entrance were armed National Guard. I wasn't expecting this since I lived on the outskirts of Beverly Hills and the closest rioting was many miles away. Very sobering for a 21-year old USC student.

197 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:46:37pm

re: #179 CriticalDragon1177

@dolphincatcher wanted me to tell you she said high. Do you two know each other?

I blocked her on Twitter when I figured out she was in with the Stalkers. That was a few months ago. But the tip-off that this was a Stalker was when her tweet to you included the tag #rumpswab. That tag is only used by the Stalkers and their allies to hurl abuse at Charles.

And to Dolphin Catcher and her fellow Stalker, I offer the following song:

Youtube Video
198 erik_t  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:46:50pm

re: #195 sattv4u2

I listen to the voices in my head

Sadly, I have not clue one as to what they are saying. I don't understand Aramaic!

They're saying aaaauuuuuuuuuggggghhhhhhhhh

199 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:47:04pm

The voices in my head always say the same thing.

More cookie dough.

The voices are my friend.

200 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:47:05pm

Great topic for a thread and here is my take..

The right to own a gun doesn't necessarily come along with the right to purchase and store an arsenal of ammunition, especially when the live ammunition is stored in an apartment building or multi dwelling building.

My guess is that the local building codes could control and limit the amount of gunpowder that can be stored in a building unless it is equipped with proper fire protection systems. Online stores and private delivery services like UPS or Fed Ex should not just sell or deliver bulk quantities of ammunition unless the buyer can verify they have the means to store it safely.

That is one way a locality could act. Of course the NRA would squeal like stuck pigs..

201 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:47:41pm

re: #189 b_sharp

We gone from the ability to kill each other one at a time and face to face to the ability to kill dozens at a time from a distance. It's too bad our ability to separate insane notions from rational ones hasn't kept pace.

Know what we don't do anymore?

Boil people in oil! I wonder if it's because of OPEC!?!?!

202 Kragar  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:48:10pm

I bet you think those voices in your head are just in your imagination.

Nope.

Just another amazing creation by Chuck Testa.

203 Achilles Tang  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:49:15pm

re: #177 Kragar

How do they work?

Any way you want them to work, silly.

204 engineer cat  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:49:16pm

re: #189 b_sharp

We gone from the ability to kill each other one at a time and face to face to the ability to kill dozens at a time from a distance. It's too bad our ability to separate insane notions from rational ones hasn't kept pace.

there is an interesting watershed in human behavior - if you believe the archaeological interpretations - at about 4000 bc in europe when unwalled agricultural villages in s.e europe seem to have been overrun by warlord like groups from approximately modern ukraine, riding in in chariots and generally wreaking havoc and leaving burn layers. walled villages become much more common after that

speculation is that individual murders because of personal conflicts had been going on forever, but the idea of organized viking type violence dates from around this time

205 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:50:34pm

re: #201 sattv4u2

Know what we don't do anymore?

Boil people in oil! I wonder if it's because of OPEC!?!?!

It died out when moats and stone walls went out of fashion. We should bring them back in preparation for the Zombie Apocalypse.

206 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:51:04pm

Gun control is no win topic for Democrats and will remain so for at least another decade or two. I understand the drive to focus on it because of the real world violent consequences but Americans love their freedoms too much. We should try to be pragmatic about this, any policy that currently seeks to track gun ownership or restrict firearms rights is going to generate a gigantic backlash throughout most of the country. We should fight the battles we can win, the ones that have us on the side of individual freedom like defending abortion rights and decriminalizing marijuana. The attitude we have towards handgun ownership isn't going to change until we actually do something about increasing education instead of simply talking about it.

In the meantime my advice is embrace the suck.

207 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:51:33pm

re: #205 b_sharp

It died out when moats and stone walls went out of fashion. We should bring them back in preparation for the Zombie Apocalypse.

Great

Can I be the one that yells TO THE PARAPETS, MEN!! ???

208 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:51:50pm

re: #196 palomino

I had a sobering experience also. The Fire Department contacted the gold refinery I work for and asked us to open it up, and remove all the hydrogen and oxygen cylinders from the building and put them in the parking lot. We had about 12 of each in the big size.

They feared our building would be burned and those tanks were a deadly risk to the neighborhood. So we went to south LA (Jefferson near La Brea at the time) and did that. Then later we moved it to another city.

209 Raccoon City  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:51:56pm

re: #173 Pawn of the Oppressor

I'm to the point where I could almost agree to a high-capacity magazine restriction *in theory*, even though I think enforceability would be impossible. Unless the Chinese landed troops in my backyard tomorrow, or the Zombie Apocalypse comes, well... No, I don't really need 100-round drums of ammo.

Either way I have faith that absolutely nothing will change, anyway. :(

the LA Times already has an article up focusing on the magazine restrictions and playing the what-if game if they had still been in place: [Link: www.latimes.com...]

If anything will happen it's probably that more states will probably follow California in having the 10 round limit on magazines. I'm sure just as many states will go out of their way to prevent such a ban from ever happening there. I suppose it might make it more difficult to obtain bigger capacity stuff from legitimate sales or dealers but it will be impossible to regulate the person-to-person market unless there's a full on nationwide ban.

210 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:51:59pm

re: #200 Mich-again

Great topic for a thread and here is my take..

The right to own a gun doesn't necessarily come along with the right to purchase and store an arsenal of ammunition, especially when the live ammunition is stored in an apartment building or multi dwelling building.

My guess is that the local building codes could control and limit the amount of gunpowder that can be stored in a building unless it is equipped with proper fire protection systems. Online stores and private delivery services like UPS or Fed Ex should not just sell or deliver bulk quantities of ammunition unless the buyer can verify they have the means to store it safely.

That is one way a locality could act. Of course the NRA would squeal like stuck pigs..

Assuming the state legislature is willing to let localities make such decisions. When Philadelphia refused to go along with Pennsylvania's CCW system, the state legislature revoked the power of municipalities to legislate on firearms in the Keystone State. The NRA would have a good chance at passing such a law in Colorado.

211 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:52:13pm

Do the online gun and ammo stores pay state sales taxes to the states where the material is being shipped? If not, they might be illegal as well. States could go after them for tax evasion.

212 sagehen  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:52:22pm

re: #204 engineer cat

speculation is that individual murders because of personal conflicts had been going on forever, but the idea of organized viking type violence dates from around this time

that's about when Methos took up with Kronos....

213 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:52:37pm

re: #204 engineer cat

there is an interesting watershed in human behavior - if you believe the archaeological interpretations - at about 4000 bc in europe when unwalled agricultural villages in s.e europe seem to have been overrun by warlord like groups from approximately modern ukraine, riding in in chariots and generally wreaking havoc and leaving burn layers. walled villages become much more common after that

speculation is that individual murders because of personal conflicts had been going on forever, but the idea of organized viking type violence dates from around this time

Pillaging does have its fans.
I blame the disappearance of toga parties for that.

214 CriticalDragon1177  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:52:45pm

re: #197 Dark_Falcon

I blocked her on Twitter when I figured out she was in with the Stalkers. That was a few months ago. But the tip-off that this was a Stalker was when her tweet to you included the tag #rumpswab. That tag is only used by the Stalkers and their allies to hurl abuse at Charles.

And to Dolphin Catcher and her fellow Stalker, I offer the following song:

[Embedded content]

Dark_Falcon sorry I didn't realize she was not a friend. I had no idea about that tag or what it was used for. Sorry about that. but in the meantime, I'm not going to do what she tells me to do here anymore. I didn't realize who I was dealing with.

215 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:53:24pm

re: #200 Mich-again

Great topic for a thread and here is my take..

The right to own a gun doesn't necessarily come along with the right to purchase and store an arsenal of ammunition, especially when the live ammunition is stored in an apartment building or multi dwelling building.

My guess is that the local building codes could control and limit the amount of gunpowder that can be stored in a building unless it is equipped with proper fire protection systems. Online stores and private delivery services like UPS or Fed Ex should not just sell or deliver bulk quantities of ammunition unless the buyer can verify they have the means to store it safely.

That is one way a locality could act. Of course the NRA would squeal like stuck pigs..

In an earlier post, I mentioned the guy in LA who had a million rounds in his house when police raided him on an unrelated charge. The place would have gone up like a volcano if there had been a fire, but the stash was completely legal.

216 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:53:30pm

re: #214 CriticalDragon1177

I'm not going to do what she tells me to do here anymore.

ummm,, HUH !?!?

217 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:54:56pm

re: #207 sattv4u2

Great

Can I be the one that yells TO THE PARAPETS, MEN!! ???

I'm just going to walk the ramparts and yell 'I fart in your general direction!'

218 engineer cat  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:55:28pm

re: #186 Kragar

I talk to myself every day and never had a complaint.

my cat tells me that that's why you're not listening to him

219 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:56:01pm

re: #210 Dark_Falcon

Assuming the state legislature is willing to let localities make such decisions. When Philadelphia refused to go along with Pennsylvania's CCW system, the state legislature revoked the power of municipalities to legislate on firearms in the Keystone State. The NRA would have a good chance at passing such a law in Colorado.

Oh hey, I'm all for the NRA's right to get out front and push for that legislation in a very public battle. I would paint the NRA into their extremist corner until they finally admit that anything goes regarding gun laws is not necessarily in the best interests of gun owners.

220 Targetpractice  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:56:06pm

re: #200 Mich-again

That is one way a locality could act. Of course the NRA would squeal like stuck pigs..

You could boil down that post to that sentence and it would apply to practically any suggested means of preventing tragedies like Aurora. The NRA is gonna squeal no matter what is suggested, and that's why nobody is going to do a damned thing. They live and die by the slippery slope that says one regulation today becomes a hundred tomorrow, a thousand the day after, and they can't have that.

221 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:57:04pm

And on that note,,, I'm OUT!

TO THE PARAPETS, MEN!

222 erik_t  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:57:38pm

re: #220 Targetpractice

You could boil down that post to that sentence and it would apply to practically any suggested means of preventing tragedies like Aurora. The NRA is gonna squeal no matter what is suggested, and that's why nobody is going to do a damned thing. They live and die by the slippery slope that says one regulation today becomes a hundred tomorrow, a thousand the day after, and they can't have that.

Maybe we can get Grover Norquist to start an absolute 100% no-new-guns pledge. He likes pledges, right?

223 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:57:54pm

re: #217 b_sharp

I'm just going to walk the ramparts and yell 'I fart in your general direction!'

And I'll shoot you in the ass as you fart with a fire arrow from my longbow. The fire will ignite the the fart and knock you back into the fort while still on fire. Muwahaha!

224 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:58:06pm

re: #221 sattv4u2

And on that note,,, I'm OUT!

TO THE PARAPETS, MEN!

BUT I HAVEN'T FINISHED MY BEANS!!

225 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:59:24pm

re: #220 Targetpractice

You could boil down that post to that sentence and it would apply to practically any suggested means of preventing tragedies like Aurora. The NRA is gonna squeal no matter what is suggested, and that's why nobody is going to do a damned thing. They live and die by the slippery slope that says one regulation today becomes a hundred tomorrow, a thousand the day after, and they can't have that.

The NRA are Second Amendment absolutists, in the same way that the ACLU are First Amendment absolutists. They don't see nuance.

(Me, I am an absolutist Thirder, but that's my own personal obsession.)

The problem is that the NRA has a degree of influence that the ACLU really does not.

Dunno. My dad quit the NRA when George Bush the Elder did. I do still have a soft spot for Eddie the Eagle.

226 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 7:59:43pm

re: #219 Mich-again

Oh hey, I'm all for the NRA's right to get out front and push for that legislation in a very public battle. I would paint the NRA into their extremist corner until they finally admit that anything goes regarding gun laws is not necessarily in the best interests of gun owners.

This is Colorado, remember. Gun regulations like that will be violently unpopular, which is why it won't happen.

227 Interesting Times  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:00:25pm

Who was it here (or maybe someplace else) who said he wasn't so much shocked that congresspeople were bought, but at how low a price?

228 palomino  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:01:24pm

re: #208 Daniel Ballard

I had a sobering experience also. The Fire Department contacted the gold refinery I work for and asked us to open it up, and remove all the hydrogen and oxygen cylinders from the building and put them in the parking lot. We had about 12 of each in the big size.

They feared our building would be burned and those tanks were a deadly risk to the neighborhood. So we went to south LA (Jefferson near La Brea at the time) and did that. Then later we moved it to another city.

Far more sobering than my experience. Sounds like the kind of "excitement" you probably don't ever want to experience again. I just remember the surreal feeling of it all--my girlfriend watching TV and crying, running into grocery stores to buy staple foods before everything was gone from the shelves, and most vivid of all the gigantic cloud of smoke 10 miles to the southwest where hundreds of fires burned for at least 2 days.

I remember my Mom calling from Houston every day of the riots: "Dammit, why don't you come back home for good? You've got earthquakes, wildfires and now riots...why the hell would anyone live out there?"

229 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:02:51pm

re: #227 Interesting Times

Who was it here (or maybe someplace else) who said he wasn't so much shocked that congresspeople were bought, but at how low a price?

[Embedded content]

You can't count on official numbers though, that's the thing about graft. I demand all my bribes be paid in untraceable chickens stuffed with ammunition.

230 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:05:00pm

re: #229 goddamnedfrank

You can't count on official numbers though, that's the thing about graft. I demand all my bribes be paid in untraceable chickens stuffed with ammunition.

So you're with the Outfit now?

/Chicago humor

231 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:05:00pm

re: #225 SanFranciscoZionist

The NRA are Second Amendment absolutists, in the same way that the ACLU are First Amendment absolutists. They don't see nuance.

(Me, I am an absolutist Thirder, but that's my own personal obsession.)

The problem is that the NRA has a degree of influence that the ACLU really does not.

Dunno. My dad quit the NRA when George Bush the Elder did. I do still have a soft spot for Eddie the Eagle.

You're obsessed with making sure we never have soldiers quartered in our homes?

Hmmm. Maybe I'll be obsessed with the 25th amendment. I'll stay up nights wondering what we will do if the cabinet and VP decide to get rid of the president and are notifying the congress that he's not fit to serve.

232 palomino  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:05:43pm

re: #206 goddamnedfrank

Gun control is no win topic for Democrats and will remain so for at least another decade or two. I understand the drive to focus on it because of the real world violent consequences but Americans love their freedoms too much. We should try to be pragmatic about this, any policy that currently seeks to track gun ownership or restrict firearms rights is going to generate a gigantic backlash throughout most of the country. We should fight the battles we can win, the ones that have us on the side of individual freedom like defending abortion rights and decriminalizing marijuana. The attitude we have towards handgun ownership isn't going to change until we actually do something about increasing education instead of simply talking about it.

In the meantime my advice is embrace the suck.

I'm not even sure a decade or two will be enough. Despite the hysteria about crime (particularly black on white), as long as crime rates are relatively low AND mass murders relatively infrequent, there won't be a convincing urgent message to create momentum for stricter laws.

233 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:06:16pm

re: #228 palomino

I just remember the surreal feeling of it all--my girlfriend watching TV and crying, running into grocery stores to buy staple foods before everything was gone from the shelves, and most vivid of all the gigantic cloud of smoke 10 miles to the southwest where hundreds of fires burned for at least 2 days.

I remember my Mom calling from Houston every day of the riots: "Dammit, why don't you come back home for good? You've got earthquakes, wildfires and now riots...why the hell would anyone live out there?"

I remember playing Street Fighter II at an arcade on University Way in Seattle when some young white dude came in and started screaming "Riot for Rodney!"

That's it ... my story isn't very exciting.

234 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:08:01pm

re: #211 Mich-again

Do the on line gun and ammo stores pay state sales taxes to the states where the material is being shipped? If not, they might be illegal as well. States could go after them for tax evasion.

Unless they have a brick and motor store in the State, they are not required to collect/render sales tax. Same goes for Mail Order Catalog sales.

//////// Dripping. But I am sure you report all your on line purchases to the State and pay the required sales taxes.

235 abolitionist  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:08:25pm

re: #233 goddamnedfrank

I remember playing Street Fighter II at an arcade on University Way in Seattle when some young white dude came in and started screaming "Riot for Rodney!"

That's it ... my story isn't very exciting.

Do you suppose he was reporting, or advocating?

236 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:09:39pm

re: #235 abolitionist

Do you suppose he was reporting, or advocating?

Advocating, no doubt.

237 freetoken  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:11:02pm

re: #206 goddamnedfrank

Gun control is no win topic for Democrats and will remain so for at least another decade or two.

At least. Until the current status quo of American politics - the maintenance of two parties teams by their owners, pitted against each other for sport as much as for governance - passes, not much will be done about guns.

238 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:12:43pm

The local fire Marshall can set restrictions on ammunition storage in residential buildings within his or her jurisdiction.

239 Kragar  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:13:58pm

re: #233 goddamnedfrank

I remember playing Street Fighter II at an arcade on University Way in Seattle when some young white dude came in and started screaming "Riot for Rodney!"

That's it ... my story isn't very exciting.

I was in college at the time in Pasadena. Our teacher came in for the afternoon class and sent us all home because the verdict was due to be announced. I got in home just in time to watch the riots start.

240 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:15:19pm

The non-controversial 12 gauge pump shotgun provides all the criminal-stopping power you could need. They have the added advantage of being cheap compared to AR-15s and such. You can buy really good combat shotguns for under $300, and wholly serviceable ones for under $200.

As we've seen in many presentations, they are also an excellent choice for coping with a Zombie Apocalypse, a rare example of fantasy and reality coinciding perfectly. They have one drawback there, though. It is my understanding that zombies are attracted by loud noise, and few noises are louder than a 12 gauge. A suppressed .22 would be a good backup. You could zap the ugly buggers all day long without attracting a horde of reinforcements for them.

241 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:15:59pm

re: #231 Mostly sane, most of the time.

You're obsessed with making sure we never have soldiers quartered in our homes?

Hmmm. Maybe I'll be obsessed with the 25th amendment. I'll stay up nights wondering what we will do if the cabinet and VP decide to get rid of the president and are notifying the congress that he's not fit to serve.

It's a lot of fun being totally committed to an Amendment no one is particularly concerned with.

I used to say I was so committed to the Third that I wouldn't even let my BIL nap on my couch, but now he's divorcing my sister-in-law, so I doubt he's going to come around my couch much.

I think the 25th is another excellent choice.

242 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:16:35pm

re: #237 freetoken

At least. Until the current status quo of American politics - the maintenance of two parties teams by their owners, pitted against each other for sport as much as for governance - passes, not much will be done about guns.

Which is why we should continue to focus on the issues of personal liberty that strongly appeal to the shifting demographics. Like supporting the rights of gays to serve in the military, marry & adopt children, the rights of brown people to drive around without having to show their birth certificates or passports, and the right of women not to be forcibly raped by an ultrasound wand before they can have an abortion.

243 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:16:45pm

I also think it is sort of ironic that the gun club was able to deny him membership based on suspicions about his erratic behavior. But if the person selling him the gun or ammunition noticed the same creepy signs, they would have no recourse to prevent the sale. So the guys at the gun club know enough to not let a screwball with a loaded weapon hang around, but they'll fight to the death for that screwballs right to load up on guns and ammo and then set them loose on the public.

244 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:16:50pm

re: #238 Mich-again

The local fire Marshall can set restrictions on ammunition storage in residential buildings within his or her jurisdiction.

In most places, yes. But an unpopular fire marshal will rapidly find himself hounded out. Fire marshals are too low level to go up against a state-wide branch of the NRA and survive.

245 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:18:40pm

re: #244 Dark_Falcon

In most places, yes. But an unpopular fire marshal will rapidly find himself hounded out. Fire marshals are too low level to go up against a state-wide branch of the NRA and survive.

Well bring it on.. My guess is the NRA types will make a lot of noise, but that in many communities they won't have a free rein over the whole of public opinion and at some point people will tire of their extemist bs. At any rate, make them fight a thousand battles in a thousand cities.

246 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:18:59pm

re: #243 Mich-again

I also think it is sort of ironic that the gun club was able to deny him membership based on suspicions about his erratic behavior. But if the person selling him the gun or ammunition noticed the same creepy signs, they would have no recourse to prevent the sale. So the guys at the gun club know enough to not let a screwball with a loaded weapon hang around, but they'll fight to the death for that screwballs right to load up on guns and ammo and then set them loose on the public.

They trust themselves to make that judgement, as a grassroots group of citizens (which they really are, at least at the level of an individual gun club). But they fear that if government is given such power it will inevitably abuse it.

247 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:20:44pm

re: #246 Dark_Falcon

They trust themselves to make that judgement, as a grassroots group of citizens (which they really are, at least at the level of an individual gun club). But they fear that if government is given such power it will inevitably abuse it.

I think its closer to say they are protecting their own asses, first and foremost. The fact that the gun rights they clamor for in public stop at their own doorstep tells me all I need to know.

248 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:22:02pm

re: #245 Mich-again

Well bring it on.. My guess is the NRA types will make a lot of noise, but that in many communities they won;t have a free rein over the whole public. At any rate, make them fight a thousand battles in a thousand cities.

They don't need to do that. As I said, what would happen if that were tried in Colorado is that the state legislature would simply explicitly remove small arms ammo and power from the category of 'explosives' and thus from fire marshal's authority. And yes, they can do that.

249 Interesting Times  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:22:28pm

(admit it, you also thought it was real until you got to the end)

250 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:22:56pm

re: #241 SanFranciscoZionist

It's a lot of fun being totally committed to an Amendment no one is particularly concerned with.

I used to say I was so committed to the Third that I wouldn't even let my BIL nap on my couch, but now he's divorcing my sister-in-law, so I doubt he's going to come around my couch much.

I think the 25th is another excellent choice.

As I explained to my students, there are amendments that are earth-shatteringly important, like the 1st and the 19th. Then there are those like the 27th, which are more or less bookkeeping.

251 Targetpractice  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:24:37pm

re: #240 Shiplord Kirel

The non-controversial 12 gauge pump shotgun provides all the criminal-stopping power you could need. They have the added advantage of being cheap compared to AR-15s and such. You can buy really good combat shotguns for under $300, and wholly serviceable ones for under $200.

As we've seen in many presentations, they are also an excellent choice for coping with a Zombie Apocalypse, a rare example of fantasy and reality coinciding perfectly. They have one drawback there, though. It is my understanding that zombies are attracted by loud noise, and few noises are louder than a 12 gauge. A suppressed .22 would be a good backup. You could zap the ugly buggers all day long without attracting a horde of reinforcements for them.

I actually remember somebody trying to argue to me, in the wake of the Giffords shooting, that we couldn't put restrictions on high-capacity magazines because homeowners might need such magazines for home defense. It absolutely boggles my mind that some folks think you need that many rounds to handle a burglar.

252 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:25:14pm

Also, the 3rd amendment would matter a lot if you had lived through the Revolutionary War, and knew what it was like to be told "You've got ten minutes, and then you get out."

253 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:26:32pm

re: #247 Mich-again

I think its closer to say they are protecting their own asses, first and foremost. The fact that the gun rights they clamor for in public stop at their own doorstep tells me all I need to know.

It can also be legitimately argued that a private club should face different standards than a commercial enterprise. According to that argument. a club for Irish-Americans might legally bar someone whose parents came from India from joining, but it would be illegal for a member of that same club to deny the Indian-American service at his clothing store.

254 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:26:40pm

For a more rational take on the 2nd and (IMO) far saner advocacy than NRA/ILA check these guys out.

How many RWNJ heads might explode on that one?

SAF Wins Case in Massachusetts, Striking Down Gun Ban For Legal Aliens
A Federal District Court Judge in Massachusetts today granted summary judgment in a Second Amendment Foundation case challenging that state’s denial of firearms licenses to permanent resident aliens.

255 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:26:57pm

re: #248 Dark_Falcon

They don't need to do that. As I said, what would happen if that were tried in Colorado is that the state legislature would simply explicitly remove small arms ammo and power from the category of 'explosives' and thus from fire marshal's authority. And yes, they can do that.

Uh not that easy. Fire marshalls have a fair amount of power and ALEC can't write bills for everyone at the same time and lord knows there in no one left in the GOP who could actually write one on their own. At any rate, I would force the NRA to make that stand in public.

256 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:28:37pm

re: #156 engineer cat

sloth

how come Sloth is the only one that gets its own animal?

It's not. Check out the list of alternative names for the WOLVERINE!

257 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:29:10pm

Quick: What's the 20th amendment?

No fair peeking.

How about the 17th?

258 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:30:20pm

re: #255 Mich-again

Uh not that easy. Fire marshalls have a fair amount of power and ALEC can't write bills for everyone at the same time and lord knows there in no one left in the GOP who could actually write one on their own. At any rate, I would force the NRA to make that stand in public.

Yes Mich, it actually would be that easy. A state legislature can simply pass a law that says "We are setting the standards for ammunition storage in this state as [fill in the blank]. These rules may not be altered by local legislation or regulations." That's what happened in Pennsylvania, though I maintain Philly was being unreasonable about CCW and the legislature there was right to act as it did.

259 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:30:28pm

re: #257 Mostly sane, most of the time.

No fair, math might be easier!

260 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:30:38pm

re: #252 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Also, the 3rd amendment would matter a lot if you had lived through the Revolutionary War, and knew what it was like to be told "You've got ten minutes, and then you get out."

Sure. Its necessity was extremely clear to those who included it in the BoR.

It's just that now everyone skips over it, because huh?

To be honest, the Second has similar issues. It's original intent is based on a world view and situation that no longer exists. However, unlike the Third, it has accumulated more meaning and baggage over the years, rather than shedding it.

261 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:32:38pm

re: #257 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Quick: What's the 20th amendment?

No fair peeking.

How about the 17th?

The 20th Amendment changed the date when the president is inaugurated from April to January.

The 17th Amendment changed the rules for electing Senators, mandating their direct election (as opposed to being appointed by state governments).

262 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:32:44pm

re: #243 Mich-again

But if the person selling him the gun or ammunition noticed the same creepy signs, they would have no recourse to prevent the sale.

Merchants can deny service for any reason not covered under the Civil Rights Act or ADA. Responsible FFLs deny sales to people not all that infrequently, based on little more than gut instinct. Of course the internet ammo sale doesn't provide much opportunity for a face to face evaluation of the customer so yeah, that's a problem.

263 erik_t  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:33:49pm

re: #261 Dark_Falcon

The 17th Amendment changed the rules for electing Senators, mandating their direct election (as opposed to being appointed by state governments).

And do I run into strange folk who are still up in arms about this one, seeing it as a horrific trampling on State's Rights (TM)?

You betcha.

264 Targetpractice  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:34:09pm

re: #262 goddamnedfrank

Merchants can deny service for any reason not covered under the Civil Rights Act or ADA. Responsible FFLs deny sales to people not all that infrequently, based on little more than gut instinct. Of course the internet ammo sale doesn't provide much opportunity for a face to face evaluation of the customer so yeah, that's a problem.

And gun shows have even less of a safety margin.

265 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:34:57pm

re: #262 goddamnedfrank

Merchants can deny service for any reason not covered under the Civil Rights Act or ADA. Responsible FFLs deny sales to people not all that infrequently, based on little more than gut instinct. Of course the internet ammo sale doesn't provide much opportunity for a face to face evaluation of the customer so yeah, that's a problem.

There you go. Find me the place in the constitution that says being able to buy ammunition online is a divine right.

266 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:35:58pm

I just got back from a very special niece's wedding. It was a great time and I got a chance to visit with siblings I haven't seen in 11 years, since my younger brother's funeral in fact. It was a special wedding because the bride was my dead brother's youngest daughter and she looks very much like him, so much so every time I see her I also see my brother, who, truth be told, I miss quite a bit. I also got to see my little sister (if 48 years old and 5'8" is little) , who is my youngest full sibling and the closest of all of us to my dead brother in personality. Just for the guys here, she was a model most of her adult life and still looks the part.

The funniest part of the night, and possibly the most rewarding was when a drunk 'guest' made a stupid remark about the bride and the fact her dad was dead and my sister, marshalling all of the personality she shares with my brother, kicked the drunk in the balls and dropped him to the ground. When asked if she really kicked the guy in the balls, she said; 'It was just a tap'.

267 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:37:15pm

re: #263 erik_t

And do I run into strange folk who are still up in arms about this one, seeing it as a horrific trampling on State's Rights (TM)?

You betcha.

Yes, that happens. Crazies will be crazy.

268 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:39:07pm

re: #264 Targetpractice

And gun shows have even less of a safety margin.

Depends on the jurisdiction. The so called gun show loophole really has nothing to do with gun shows per se and everything to do with how private transfers are governed. In California if you buy a gun from a booth at a show it's got to be transferred through a local FFL. They set up tables in the back of the show, handle all the transfer paperwork for a fee, and sequester the gun for the full 10 days. Then after the waiting period you pick the gun up at their retail location.

269 prairiefire  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:40:59pm

re: #257 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Quick: What's the 20th amendment?

No fair peeking.

How about the 17th?

Gee, we're already at 27. I can see adding a few more.

LOL, Mitt singing ad just on ESPN!

270 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:42:47pm

re: #265 Mich-again

There you go. Find me the place in the constitution that says being able to buy ammunition online is a divine right.

I can't. I'm not going to lie though, it's fucking convenient, done it myself.

While I wouldn't mind seeing that loophole closed I still think it's a losing battle for the Democrats and don't think there's any upside to them tilting quixotically towards that windmill.

271 freetoken  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:42:55pm

Who would be up for rewriting some major portions of the Constitution?

272 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:44:04pm

re: #271 freetoken

Who would be up for rewriting some major portions of the Constitution?

Sisyphus.

273 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:44:44pm

re: #272 goddamnedfrank

Sisyphus.

Sisyphus rocks.

274 Kragar  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:45:17pm

re: #273 b_sharp

Sisyphus rocks.

and rolls on occasion.

275 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:45:24pm

re: #262 goddamnedfrank

Merchants can deny service for any reason not covered under the Civil Rights Act or ADA. Responsible FFLs deny sales to people not all that infrequently, based on little more than gut instinct. Of course the internet ammo sale doesn't provide much opportunity for a face to face evaluation of the customer so yeah, that's a problem.

Another problem is the big box stores like Academy or Gander Mountain (where Holmes bought his AR-15). I can't see a clerk there refusing a sale just on gut instinct. The clerk would have to call a manager, who might not be able to see what the clerk saw, especially since the buyer would be on guard by this time. The clerk would be endangering his job if he were over-ruled or the customer made a complaint. The guy at a mom and pop hardware store or small gun shop can refuse a sale, and I know some who do, but those venues are becoming rare.

276 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:45:43pm

re: #271 freetoken

Who would be up for rewriting some major portions of the Constitution?

Nobody in power. It would put too much up for grabs. Lets not forget that there is no guarantee that the side we favor in any proposed Constitutional debate would succeed. And even worse would be if you called a Constitutional Convention and it ended up deadlocked. What would happen then? Nothing good, I imagine.

277 prairiefire  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:49:01pm

re: #204 engineer cat

Ghengis Khan? And who is not surprised to learn that Martha Stewart is a Berber descendent of Khan's? I was not and neither was she.

278 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:49:37pm

re: #274 Kragar

and rolls on occasion.

He invented a whole musical genre.

279 freetoken  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:52:03pm

The inability of us, our country, to deal with the challenges of today, by hiding in the past, will be one of the condemnations future generations will pass upon us, I think.

Look, ERA has been hanging out there for years - it should have been passed by now.

Likewise an amendment that clearly spells out the universality of basic rights wrt other issues, such as personal sexuality.

Some ideas are so passe that they are dangerous, such as the "militia" in the 2nd Amendment.

That corporations, which may be owned and controlled by foreign entities, get the same rights as as individual citizens is absurd, and current life demonstrates that quite well.

Heck, the electoral college wasn't needed once modern communications became universal.

The inability to deal with today is indeed our greatest failing.

280 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:54:10pm

re: #279 freetoken

The ERA died after 10 years, FT. Like most modern Constitutional Amendments, it had a time limit for ratification.

281 freetoken  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:56:05pm

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

[Link: www.equalrightsamendment.org...]

282 Gus  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 8:56:32pm

It's also important to look beyond "the gun" and study a society that glorifies and objectifies violence.

283 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:00:04pm

re: #282 Gus

We really do need to put more resources into what makes a mass killer. Serial killer.

284 freetoken  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:01:04pm

re: #282 Gus

It's also important to look beyond "the gun" and study a society that glorifies and objectifies violence.

Yet... having lived in Japan I can assure you that Japanese entertainment is filled with violence, but they have one of the lowest violent crime rates in the world.

285 Gus  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:02:18pm

re: #283 Daniel Ballard

We really do need to put more resources into what makes a mass killer. Serial killer.

We sure do. It's rather ironic that this Batman movie is about violence. Even including what? 4 month old children already there being introduced to the genre?

286 Gus  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:02:33pm

re: #284 freetoken

Yet... having lived in Japan I can assure you that Japanese entertainment is filled with violence, but they have one of the lowest violent crime rates in the world.

But that's Japan.

287 Gus  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:03:07pm

Yes. In Japan they also eat their rice, vegetables, and fish.

288 Kragar  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:04:24pm

re: #284 freetoken

Yet... having lived in Japan I can assure you that Japanese entertainment is filled with violence, but they have one of the lowest violent crime rates in the world.

Samurai attacks, ninja stars and tentacle attacks are another story completely.

289 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:04:52pm

re: #286 Gus

But that's Japan.

Indeed. Japanese society is highly deferential to authority and the group in a way that American society will never be. It is also a relatively homogenous culture, whereas the US has been a diverse nation since its inception.

290 freetoken  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:05:11pm

re: #286 Gus

But that's Japan.

Yes.

But if one looks at a list of gun murder rates by country, such as the one on Wikipedia, other nations with low gun homicides also are not known for their absence of violent entertainment or lack of fantasies. Taiwan? Chile?

291 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:05:23pm

re: #283 Daniel Ballard

We really do need to put more resources into what makes a mass killer. Serial killer.

Some on the right consider psychologists/psychiatrists to be ivory tower elitists wasting government money doing useless studies. Getting money for that kind of research might be difficult.

292 Kragar  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:08:59pm

The joy of kids:

"Get your foot out of your mouth!"

"Hey, at least I can do it."

293 Gus  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:09:59pm

re: #290 freetoken

Yes.

But if one looks at a list of gun murder rates by country, such as the one on Wikipedia, other nations with low gun homicides also are not known for their absence of violent entertainment or lack of fantasies. Taiwan? Chile?

A lot of things that happen here also don't happen in Japan. I really don't see the point in the comparison.

294 Gus  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:10:34pm

Here that is.

295 prairiefire  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:10:44pm

re: #292 Kragar

I enjoy parenting a nine year old. Compared to a teenager, it's like Mary flippin Poppins.

296 Gus  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:14:04pm

Blaming something on one sole cause is not scientific.

297 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:14:10pm

re: #291 b_sharp

Some on the right consider psychologists/psychiatrists to be ivory tower elitists wasting government money doing useless studies. Getting money for that kind of research might be difficult.

Pitched right, it might pass. Frankly, you might well be able to appeal to the NRA and other gun orgs for money to study serial killers and active shooters. It could be said like this:

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and thus it would behoove us to examine what makes people kill. We all agree that it is not access to guns that primarily motives active shooters to commit their crimes, guns are their tools. What makes them do such horrible deeds is something deeper,and these studies are intended to better identify those somethings. The studies can even be ordered structured as to bar them from making firearms-related recommendations, if that will allay the NRA's concerns. This isn't about gun control, these studies will be about spotting those who are most likely to use guns for what we all agree are horrible acts."

298 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:14:12pm

re: #295 prairiefire

I enjoy parenting a nine year old. Compared to a teenager, it's like Mary flippin Poppins.

Um, have you looked into the possible meaning behind 'a spoonful of sugar'?

299 Gus  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:15:01pm

It's like thing if you're going to ban Big Gulps you're going to get rid of obesity.

300 Gus  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:16:12pm

Doesn't matter anyway since no one is going to "do anything" anyway. The Democrats have already said as much an are bowing to the NRA. Including the president.

301 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:16:17pm

re: #298 b_sharp

Um, have you looked into the possible meaning behind 'a spoonful of sugar'?

It means spoon full of sugar.

If you want to get a ten year old to do something, candy is a very effective bribe.

302 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:18:32pm

Last year I bought a couple of Ruger Mk III .22s. One was a 6 & 7/8" barrel stainless Hunter and the other a 5.5" blued Target model. I modded both, replacing the stock sear and trigger with parts made by Volquartsen. The original stock trigger isn't terrible but it can be made better, it creeps/feels gritty and breaks pretty heavy. With the replacement VQ parts those triggers now break like glass at about a pound and a half (haven't measured them.)

I then heard from a bunch of Mk III owners who insisted that the trigger could be made even better by replacing the hammer bushing with a custom one that lets you remove the magazine disconnect parts (that make the gun unable to fire unless a magazine is inserted.) So I bought the bushing (cheap), replaced it and found out that it made the trigger pure SHIT. It introduced what felt like a whole bucket full of sand and creep back into the trigger pull. Tried the bushing in both guns, same results, awful. So I put back the original bushing and mag disco parts and the triggers went back to breaking like glass.

Turns out the people who recommended the bushing swap actually didn't give a shit about the feel of their triggers. They were idiots. To them the mag disconnect safety was an abomination, something mandated by California law that they just had to get rid of. They were completely delusional, their triggers were shit but they couldn't tell the difference because the idea of lawyers and a government regulation making their guns safer was so anathema to them that they simply could not admit that they'd willingly fucked up their triggers to get rid of it.

The thing that gets me is this, nobody drops a clip and still plans to fire a round left in the chamber. If the trigger gets pulled and that round goes off it's almost always an accident. If the mag disco prevents even one accidental discharge then I'm all for it. The idea of taking a perfectly modded trigger and making it feel like shit just because a person hates the idea of a mag safety strikes me as completely insane, yet it's one of the most popular things people do to these pistols.

I'm not sure I have a point except, yeah, gun culture gets weird.

303 prairiefire  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:21:32pm

re: #298 b_sharp

Please, re: #301 Mostly sane, most of the time.

It means spoon full of sugar.

If you want to get a ten year old to do something, candy is a very effective bribe.

I was thinking of Heroin, Emmie.

304 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:22:00pm

re: #299 Gus

It's like thing if you're going to ban Big Gulps you're going to get rid of obesity.

Obesity is the result of a large number of interacting factors, only a few of which can be controlled by bureaucracies, so they make token attempts to modify kid's behaviour through things like killing Big Gulps.

Soon they'll be putting pictures of dead and mutilated Big Gulps on Big Gulps.

305 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:22:41pm

re: #303 prairiefire

Please, re: #301 Mostly sane, most of the time.

I was thinking of Heroin, Emmie.

Well, yes, but in the movie she was singing to small children, and I can tell you that I have used refined sugar as a bribe in many an instance.

306 prairiefire  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:22:58pm

re: #298 b_sharp

Um, have you looked into the possible meaning behind 'a spoonful of sugar'?

No, it's just sex at the momo. I am veewwy, veewwy disappointed in my girl.

307 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:23:08pm

re: #301 Mostly sane, most of the time.

It means spoon full of sugar.

If you want to get a ten year old to do something, candy is a very effective bribe.

That depends if you take the red pill or the blue pill.

308 prairiefire  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:23:32pm

re: #305 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Well, yes, but in the movie she was singing to small children, and I can tell you that I have used refined sugar as a bribe in many an instance.

"I am kind, but extremely firm." That's my MO.

309 Gus  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:25:21pm

re: #304 b_sharp

Obesity is the result of a large number of interacting factors, only a few of which can be controlled by bureaucracies, so they make token attempts to modify kid's behaviour through things like killing Big Gulps.

Soon they'll be putting pictures of dead and mutilated Big Gulps on Big Gulps.

Well I think that's kind of funny. We're putting warning labels on Big Gulps yet dancing around guns. Hey, that's cool. Not my scene but man.

310 Digital Display  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:26:12pm

This is the signs of our time..Security becomes the over arching issue in modern times..It doesn't matter if you must take off your shoes to board a plane or cameras are on every corner or the Gov't wiretaps every call and data mines it..This is where we are. Imagine 20 years from now.
This is the price we have to pay for personal safety and security in this modern world.

311 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:26:59pm

re: #302 goddamnedfrank

Last year I bought a couple of Ruger Mk III .22s. One was a 6 & 7/8" barrel stainless Hunter and the other a 5.5" blued Target model. I modded both, replacing the stock sear and trigger with parts made by Volquartsen. The original stock trigger isn't terrible but it can be made better, it creeps/feels gritty and breaks pretty heavy. With the replacement VQ parts those triggers now break like glass at about a pound and a half (haven't measured them.)

I then heard from a bunch of Mk II owners who insisted that the trigger could be made even better by replacing the hammer bushing with a custom one that lets you remove the magazine disconnect parts (that make the gun unable to fire unless a magazine is inserted.) So I bought the bushing (cheap), replaced it and found out that it made the trigger pure SHIT. It introduced what felt like a whole bucket full of sand and creep back into the trigger pull. Tried the bushing in both guns, same results, awful. So I replaced the original bushing and mag disco parts and the triggers went back to breaking like glass.

Turns out the people who recommended the bushing swap actually didn't give a shit about the feel of their triggers. They were idiots. To them the mag disconnect safety was an abomination, something mandated by California law that they just had to get rid of. They were completely delusional, their triggers were shit but they couldn't tell the difference because the idea of lawyers and a government regulation making their guns safer was so anathema to them that they simply could not admit that they'd willingly fucked up their triggers to get rid of it.

The thing that gets me is this, nobody drops a clip and still plans to fire a round left in the chamber. If the trigger gets pulled and that round goes off it's almost always an accident. If the mag disco prevents even one accidental discharge then I'm all for it. The idea of taking a perfectly modded trigger and making it feel like shit just because a person hates the idea of a mag safety strikes me as completely insane, yet it's one of the most popular things people do to these pistols.

I'm not sure I have a point except, yeah, gun culture gets weird.

They were also being extremely stupid, as firearms trainer Massad Ayoob has noted in more than one firearms magazine. If you even used a firearm whose magazine safety you had removed in self defense opposing counsel (criminal or civil) would hang you with that fact in front of a jury. Try to avoid an unfavorable verdict after the jury hears how you disconnected a safety device on you gun, just try. Because you will have given opposing counsel an easy way to paint you as an irresponsible "Rambo"-type whose first priority was making sure he could shoot, not the safety of himself or others.

I know you're smarter than that, Frank, but I'm surprised other people are so dumb.

312 Gus  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:27:26pm

Ironically the response will be to create a movie theater TSA. Not by design but by a Pavlovian design.

313 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:27:27pm

I couldn't tell my mom I was taking my son to have him assessed for ADHD.I have it,and I recognized the signs, but in her opinion, I wasn't tough enough on him, and I got the impression that she felt psycology/psychiatry was for other people, and I was making excuses for my own failure.
I've often wondered how different my life would have been if I had been diagnosed at 7 instead of 35.

314 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:28:04pm

re: #310 Digital Display

*smooch*

315 Gus  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:28:47pm

Sorry but I don't have any cooking or family stories to share.

316 b_sharp  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:30:08pm

Well, I'm going to go take the purple pill and hit the sack. It's surprising how much a 7 hour drive can take out of an old man.

317 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:30:10pm

re: #315 Gus

Sorry but I don't have any cooking or family stories to share.

*GASP*
No squirrel recipes?

318 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:30:24pm

re: #312 Gus

Ironically the response will be to create a movie theater TSA. Not by design but by a Pavlovian design.

In this case, the emergency exit needed to be guarded somehow. You can't not have them, but I think they are about to become alarmed.

319 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:31:13pm

re: #313 OhNoZombies!

I couldn't tell my mom I was taking my son to have him assessed for ADHD.I have it,and I recognized the signs, but in her opinion, I wasn't tough enough on him, and I got the impression that she felt psycology/psychiatry was for other people, and I was making excuses for my own failure.
I've often wondered how different my life would have been if I had been diagnosed at 7 instead of 35.

That's really sad. I really hate people who think that ADHD is a parental failure.

Perhaps she could explain why only some of my parents' children have it, and we manifest it differently?

320 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:33:33pm

re: #312 Gus

Ironically the response will be to create a movie theater TSA. Not by design but by a Pavlovian design.

Leaders who respond to cries of "Do something!" by saying "There is no effective action I can take." tend not to stay in power. As Springfield's experience with the Bear Patrol (The Simpsons, Much Apu About Nothing humorously reminded us, most people would rather shout and protest than make rational decisions about trade-offs. Americans of all stripes become seriously pissed when told that they cannot "have it all", because we are not raised to accept that.

321 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:39:12pm

re: #319 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Absolutely. It runs in families. Just other peoples families according to my mom.
Funny thing, well it's not funny, but she admits that one of my cousins has it, but because I'm not hyperactive, I don't.
Apparently she's blind to the fact that my son is hyper, and completely lacks impulse control.

322 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:39:41pm

re: #293 Gus

A lot of things that happen here also don't happen in Japan. I really don't see the point in the comparison.

OK, England loves every scrap of violent pop culture they can produce themselves or import from us. And yet, low homicide rate.

Quite high non-fatal violent crime rate, of course.

You've got to look at other people's experiences to get a real bead on what's happening. We don't exist in a vacuum.

323 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:41:06pm

re: #319 Mostly sane, most of the time.

That's really sad. I really hate people who think that ADHD is a parental failure.

Perhaps she could explain why only some of my parents' children have it, and we manifest it differently?

It's a matter of perception, Emmie. Many older people didn't know about such milder mental conditions when they were growing up. Often people ossify mentally as they age, not really wanting to learn anymore. Learning new hings about the mind would upset long-held patterns of thinking and that means a revision of the way one sees a number of problems. Such revisions are both complicated and painful, and they risk putting oneself at odds with one's peers.

324 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:41:08pm

re: #321 OhNoZombies!

Absolutely. It runs in families. Just other peoples families according to my mom.
Funny thing, well it's not funny, but she admits that one of my cousins has it, but because I'm not hyperactive, I don't.
Apparently she's blind to the fact that my son is hyper, and completely lacks impulse control.

I was never hyperactive, I just did very poorly in school until I suddenly magically developed the ability to hyperfocus.

My sister was unable to remain in a chair unless medicated.

325 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:42:02pm

re: #310 Digital Display

Sent you a mail.

326 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:42:45pm

re: #323 Dark_Falcon

It's a matter of perception, Emmie. Many older people didn't know about such milder mental conditions when they were growing up. Often people ossify mentally as they age, not really wanting to learn anymore. Learning new hings about the mind would upset long-held patterns of thinking and that means a revision of the way one sees a number of problems. Such revisions are both complicated and painful, and they risk putting oneself at odds with one's peers.

My grandparents thought that motion sickness was "all in your mind." My parents, who both suffer from it, were obviously more sympathetic.

My husband wasn't much of a believer until someone threw up all over our car. (Not one of our kids. Those lucky ducks got his inner ear, not mine.)

327 Digital Display  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:43:11pm

re: #325 Dancing along the light of day

Sent you a mail.

Hi You! I'll check it out..Hope you are well

328 dragonath  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:43:51pm

If getting health care was as easy as buying a gun, we'd be single payer by now.

Priorities.

329 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:43:55pm

re: #327 Digital Display

Back at you! Be well my friend!

330 freetoken  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:44:42pm

So, Chrome is seriously messed up for me... improperly displaying fonts. Clearing the cache doesn't seem to help.

Any ideas?

331 prairiefire  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:45:11pm

re: #326 Mostly sane, most of the time.

I consider it a gift to be able to read on long car rides, no motion sickness.

332 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:45:33pm

This is kind of funny.. From the UPS website..

Q. Can I ship sparklers from Wyoming to California?
A. No. Fireworks are considered explosives, so they can't be shipped by UPS. You'll have to find another way to celebrate the season. Sorry.

Q.Can I send a gun home?

A.No, there are strict regulatory laws regarding the transportation of firearms. UPS can only ship firearms between licensed dealers.

as for any questions about shipping ammunition, here is the answer..
No questions match your search.

Now its not a secret at the online ammo sites that they ship via UPS. One example of many..

AmmoToGo shipping and returns..

If you are missing merchandise we will regenerate the order and check our inventory. Every order is electronically verified and digitally recorded. If everything checks out that it left here with the product in the box, then we will file a claim with UPS for the missing merchandise. UPS will investigate the shortage and will contact you to examine the package. We will then ship you out the missing merchandise and we will pay the shipping.

I wonder if UPS removed any questions about shipping ammo from their website to further review what the heck the law really is. Hard to imagine their website wouldn't acknowledge that question. People only buy the gun once, but they keep on buying ammo for it.

333 prairiefire  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:46:19pm

Night, lizards.

334 Gus  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:49:17pm

If you think you can't do anything about it you're part of the problem

335 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:49:19pm

Good night.

Headed off to camp with a bunch of teenage girls for the next week early tomorrow morning.

Pray for me?

336 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:50:26pm

Ahhh, hyperfocus, that's me! I did great in school, until I got into higher math and chemistry and I couldn't remember what the hell to do. That kind of shook my self-esteem.
Medication helps, but I've developed a lot of bad habits.

337 Gus  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:50:33pm

In which case you probably should just pray.

338 freetoken  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:50:55pm

re: #337 Gus

In which case you probably should just pray.

Pray over Chrome?

339 freetoken  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:51:17pm

I knew Google was gaining omnipotence, but that is going a bit too far.

340 Gus  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:52:01pm

re: #338 freetoken

Pray over Chrome?

Could be that. You still posting over at PJ Media?

341 freetoken  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:52:32pm

re: #340 Gus

Could be that. You still posting over at PJ Media?

Last time I posted over there was probably 2 years ago.

342 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:55:34pm

re: #311 Dark_Falcon

They were also being extremely stupid, as firearms trainer Massad Ayoob has noted in more than one firearms magazine. If you even used a firearm whose magazine safety you had removed in self defense opposing counsel (criminal or civil) would hang you with that fact in front of a jury.

Assuming it actually made the trigger better I can see doing the mod on a dedicated target pistol. Dedicated target pistols only travel between the safe and the range. Also in case of a self defense situation if the only option available is chambered in .22lr then you bought the wrong gun.

343 Gus  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:55:58pm

re: #341 freetoken

Last time I posted over there was probably 2 years ago.

Cool. You ever figure that people can say so many things yet say nothing in the end?

344 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:57:59pm

re: #342 goddamnedfrank

Assuming it actually made the trigger better I can see doing the mod on a dedicated target pistol. Dedicated target pistols only travel between the safe and the range. Also in case of a self defense situation if the only option available is chambered in .22lr then you bought the wrong gun.

True that.

345 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:58:01pm

These two excerpts explain my point..

Unhindered by federal background checks or government oversight, the 24-year-old man accused of killing a dozen people inside a Colorado movie theater was able to build what the police called a 6,000-round arsenal legally and easily over the Internet, exploiting what critics call a virtual absence of any laws regulating ammunition sales.

Q. Can I ship sparklers from Wyoming to California?
A. No. Fireworks are considered explosives, so they can't be shipped by UPS. You'll have to find another way to celebrate the season. Sorry.

So UPS won't ship mom a package of sparklers for the birthday party but crazy recluse mass murderer guy can order 5,000 rounds of ammo for his assault rifle and its no biggie, we'll leave it on the porch if you're not home.

346 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:58:06pm

Gonna call it a night. Lack of sleep is starting to hurt.
Peace and love.

347 Gus  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 9:58:19pm

I'm surprised we don't have a prayer group.

348 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 10:01:20pm

re: #347 Gus

I'm surprised we don't have a prayer group.

The prayer group is usually the same bunch as the gun porn group.

349 freetoken  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 10:03:00pm

I think my problem is with the fonts which are suppose to be downloaded (from Google?) When I inspect an element and change the garbled font to one I know that is a standard part of OSX, such as helvetica, it displays fine. It's the more trendy, and I believe dynamically loaded, fonts that seem to be giving me the problem.

Is there a Chrome expert in the house?

350 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 10:03:55pm

re: #345 Mich-again

These two excerpts explain my point..

So UPS won't ship mom a package of sparklers for the birthday party but crazy recluse mass murderer guy can order 5,000 rounds of ammo for his assault rifle and its no biggie, we'll leave it on the porch if you're not home.

Small arms ammunition is specifically not considered as "explosives" under federal law. This rule was put into place to prevent anti-gun groups from using laws about explosives to slap restrictions on ammo.

351 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 10:06:09pm

re: #350 Dark_Falcon

Small arms ammunition is specifically not considered as "explosives" under federal law. This rule was put into place to prevent anti-gun groups from using laws about explosives to slap restrictions on ammo.

Sparklers and assault rifle ammunition have the same active ingredient.

352 freetoken  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 10:06:16pm

Changing the exotic "Droid sans" font that LGF now uses extensively to, say Arial, fixes that part of the display.

Damn these Google fonts.

353 abolitionist  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 10:19:33pm

re: #352 freetoken

Changing the exotic "Droid sans" font that LGF now uses extensively to, say Arial, fixes that part of the display.

Damn these Google fonts.

Apparently, most browsers routinely leak to websites info about the installed fonts, or can be queried for such info. It's one of several ways that end-user's computers are rendered trackable on the net.

A research project of the Electronic Frontier Foundation - How unique and trackable is your browser? -- online test.

354 freetoken  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 10:21:56pm

re: #353 abolitionist

Well, the fonts are now loading properly... don't know what changed.

I tried downloading the entire Google font set, via a Terminal line command just as Google instructs, but it aborts in the middle due to a dropped connection, Mecurial claims.

But... that little exercise seems to have changed something.

355 druid for hire  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 10:28:45pm

i vote no more gun shows (or tighten the restrictions to mimic in store sales). same with internet sales. law abiding citizens should be able to own legal guns (including ar15 & ak47's ). not sure anyone needs 6,000 rounds of ammo for an ar15. where do you draw the line tho? dude could've had 100 rounds an done the same damage.

356 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Jul 22, 2012 10:49:03pm

I just got to see Cypress Hill and Sublime perform live just over an hour ago.

And I got paid to be there too.

Anyway...where do I stand? I take no issue with firearm ownership, so long as it's done within the confines of the law. That said, why would anyone outside of the police and military actually need an automatic weapon? I think there should be limits as to what kinds of firearms are available to citizens who are civilians. No, this won't stop murders and future massacres, but that would be a start.

357 teresa  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 7:20:42am

People in America are obsessed with guns, absolutely obsessed. Thing is, very few citizens seem to want any sort of gun control, they are horrified by the events of the recent past and the not-so-recent past, but completely unwilling to pressure their representatives to do anything. Congressfolks won't do anything without an extreme amount of pressure.

We feel for people who've lost their children, their spouses, we cry with them, but as a nation we truly refuse to take corrective action.

Part of the reason we seem to have more of these problems than the rest of the world, stems from the lack of access to lifelong adequate medical care. But since the 1960's we've pretty much left mentally ill people on their own. It is often very expensive to get treatment for those with mental illness, and treatment cannot be forced on any adult, which also hurts our efforts to curb these kinds of horrific events. And although we don't know anything in particular about this man's mental state, we can assume all is not right with his mind. The complexity of the gun problem is wrapped up in our severely lacking system of welfare and healthcare. And of course we've allowed our politicians to demonize helping our fellow Americans.

A little report to read about the mentally ill and murder.

358 ErikJ76  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 7:22:59am

re: #94 palomino

How many mass murderers use knives as their weapon of choice? OK, maybe OJ, but he only killed two people (that we know of), so it's not really a murder spree.

There has been a few mass murders using knives and killing a number of victims, but in most of these, if not all of them, the victims have been kindergarten or school children, i.e. those that can't fight back.

It's a lot easier to flee from or fight back against someone brandishing a knife.

359 macaw  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 8:40:54am

Younger adults, if that is the correct term, seems to be the ones who do most of the massacres in the USA. If they had access to inexpensive university education and good trade schools, then maybe failure would be less of a strain. No heavy loans on their shoulders to escape from. Along with better mental health service and weapon control, it might help.


Kieran Healy had a blog post about violence in America vs. OECD. (I got it from Paul Krugman's blog.) And a user there posted a link to a map of the uneven geographic distribution of homicides in America. Fascinating stuff.

[Link: crookedtimber.org...]
[Link: www.worldlifeexpectancy.com...]

360 Destro  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 9:24:51am

re: #68 William Barnett-Lewis

The 2nd Amendment is more difficult to understand in a modern context than, say, the 1st or 8th amendments. We don't have an utter terror of a tyrant using a standing army to enslave the whole population; given the events of the English Civil War and the events on the Continent during the religious wars where unarmed peasants died but armed freemen at least had a fighting chance.

The 2nd amendment has that clause in it. You know - well regulated militia - that gets ignored a lot these days except by people who want to claim only the National Guard can be armed. The Founders, with their faith in Militia instead of Standing Armies, had a very different & very specific idea of what a "well regulated" militia ment. Look at the Militia Acts of 1794 - they required every free citizen (ie white male over 21) to own a gun in the military's caliber, 20 rounds of ammo & drill twice a year. The latter, esepecially, is why the original concept of "well regulated" ie disciplined in marching and fighting in the European style, fell by the wayside after the end of the war of 1812. Especially since the militia almost cost us the war on several occasions and the regulars only barely held on for the draw because the British were too busy with Napoleon to give us a proper defeat.

So what does well regulated mean in the modern context? Should we issue a M16 to every adult citizen who can pass NICS and promises to train twice a year? That's what ol' TJ would say, I'd bet.

I like the idea of requiring training and licensing. But by the same token, I think that schools should be required to give that training to all high school aged kids that want it much as they do drivers ed or, in some states, hunter safety. Combined with proper national ID (passport, drivers license, firearms license, voter id, single payer insurance id ;) it would be a reasonable regulation without infringing upon anything. I'd also want the automatic weapons registry reopened but that's another story...

The real problem with that is that it is, arguably, unconstitutional because it would prevent at least some from exercising their right without due process if simply not having the license prevented ownership and use.

And then we're back where we began...

My idea is to make the National Guard a true "State Guard", that can never be mobilized unless there is a congressional declaration of war per the constitution. The state guards will be the 'well regulated militia' of citizens armed to protect our liberties if and when the federal govt decides to act out some Soros scheme for the paranoid. In the meantime, gun ownership will be heavily regulated. There, I just solved the problem. Your welcome, America.

361 hellosnackbar  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 9:39:42am

About twelve years ago I was in Baltimore with my newly purchased yacht and met an Australian female doctor who worked at Johns Hopkins.
In conversation I told her I'd watched an American army short television statement in which was said that in Japan 47 people had lost their lives through gunshot wounds during the commission of a crime,it was 56 inFrance 35 in the UK; but 10,000 plus in the USA .
The statement was ended with the words "God bless America".
She didn't look at all surprised and asked me how many people in the USA died from gunshot wounds over all?
I said I had no idea?
She told me about 22,000.
I've never forgotten that piece of information.

362 wrenchwench  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 9:42:28am

re: #359 macaw

Welcome, hatchling.

363 celticdragon  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 9:42:29am

re: #27 jaunte

No one is insisting on the 'well regulated militia' language in the 2nd.

Actually, they are. They just think that the militia is there to overthrow the tyranny of health care.

The militia was actually how you paid your taxes in Colonial America, especially if you didn't have coin specie. Instead, you showed up once a month for drill with your weapon (if you had one). The militia acted as local law enforcement and also did public works projects like repair bridges damaged by floods and so forth. It was your civic duty...not a civic protest.

364 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 9:46:39am

Unfortunately the very idea of 'civic' is absolute anathema to the people who form the 'militias' these days.

365 Destro  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 9:49:12am

re: #75 Achilles Tang

As an illustration of the nonsense in this whole thing here's a neat antique type of gun manufactured in the 30's. It's a single shot .410 called a Handy Gun, I read this was a handy small shotgun for farmers and the like to maybe deal with snakes. However they call it a sawed off shotgun because of the short barrel which makes it completely illegal, unless registered before 1934 or something.

Handy Gun

Yet an insane person can go out and legally buy military level weapons that are a thousand times more lethal.

The stupidity hurts.

I wonder if such laws were crime/class related laws. Military rifles were pretty expensive until 20 years or so? But the 'handy gun' and 'saturday night specials' were seen as cheap weapons criminals (and the lower classes) could easily afford and conceal and thus banned.

I do know the Republicans in California passed a whole string of gun laws when the Black Panthers started showing up at town hall meetings armed legally with rifles and shotguns.

366 Destro  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 9:56:06am

re: #82 Majacita

I like this idea. Has Switzerland ever had any mass shootings? I don't think so.

The Swiss had an incident in 2001.

Many countries may have a case or two of these kinds of crimes but they seem to happen once or twice a decade. In the USA it is so many we don't even pay attention to them any longer if the casualties are under 5.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

367 Destro  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 9:59:23am

re: #93 William Barnett-Lewis

The other question, though, is how much of that decrease is from the Freakanomics Effect? IE decreased numbers of unwanted children (via more birth control & abortion) = decreased criminals later.

NYC can't be viewed under Freakanomics because her population is constantly refreshed by immigrants. So you don't have an 'aging' population here that settles down. I recon, anyway.

368 Patricia Kayden  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 11:00:17am

re: #2 Iwouldprefernotto

Bingo. He would be committing political suicide to address gun control right now.

369 Flavia  Mon, Jul 23, 2012 6:21:46pm

re: #4 Kragar

Think of all the qualifications, registrations, insurance and regulations governing automobiles, plus what modifications and usage is considered street legal.

Now we just need to apply that to firearms.

Add this to "No civilian needs the sorts of weapons that this whacko had-" i.e., a ban on such weapons - & you'll have my position.

Better checks - more thorough, lasting longer - harsher penalties & saner weapons (hunting or personal protection, period).

370 Dustoff848  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 5:46:11am

re: #369 Flavia

Add this to "No civilian needs the sorts of weapons that this whacko had-" i.e., a ban on such weapons - & you'll have my position.

Nobody needs a car that goes 200 mph either but there are lots of people who own them. It has nothing to do with 'need'. Remember the old saying..."guns don't kill people, people kill people".


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