Mountain Lion Set Free

New toys
Technology • Views: 30,322

OK, the new release of Mountain Lion is downloaded and a safe copy made, I have a current backup of my startup drive, and the new ML-compatible versions of Xcode and Pages are installed.

Every time I upgrade Mac OS I get a little nervous, expecting problems; I think too much experience with early versions of computer operating systems traumatized me for life. The truth is that since I installed the very first version of OS X, I’ve never had a single serious problem when upgrading. But I still take elaborate precautions.

By the way, I recommend making a copy of the Mountain Lion installer app before finishing the installation, because the installer app wipes itself out when finished. To do this, wait for the ML installer to finish downloading and launch itself, then right-click on the installer icon in your dock and choose Options->Show In Finder. That will open your Applications folder, with the ML installer highlighted. I just dragged it to another drive to make a copy in another location; you can make a copy in the same location with the File menu’s Duplicate option, or by Option-dragging the file to another folder or the desktop. Then you can proceed with the installation.

Anyway, I’m going in. Cover me.

UPDATE at 7/25/12 2:32:42 pm

Update completed, and aside from a couple of incompatible programs (Snapz Pro and Little Snitch) everything’s fine. Already coming across nice new features, like Safari’s cool Tab View mode.

Jump to bottom

560 comments
1 EdDantes  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:05:57pm

I just want to wish you good luck. We're all counting on you.

2 Kragar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:06:41pm

re: #1 EdDantes

I just want to wish you good luck. We're all counting on you.

We have to come in pretty low to land this thing.

3 researchok  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:07:56pm

You have my full technical support.

4 EdDantes  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:09:17pm

re: #2 Kragar

We have to come in pretty low to land this thing.

Tell them to pour every light on the field.

5 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:10:26pm

re: #4 EdDantes

Tell them to pour every light on the field.

"Captain, maybe we ought to turn on the searchlights now."
"No, that's just what they'll be expecting us to do."

6 Kragar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:11:08pm

re: #4 EdDantes

Tell them to pour every light on the field.

The fog is getting thicker...

And Leon is getting larger!

7 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:13:25pm

yeah, just came back from a company presentation on windows 8

a real solution in search of a problem iffen you ask me

i don't know why they just don't let the software alone for a while instead of constantly screwing around with it

8 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:13:28pm

re: #6 Kragar

The fog is getting thicker...

And Leon is getting larger!

It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether.

9 EdDantes  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:14:33pm

re: #8 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether.

It's an entirely different kind of flying

10 Kragar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:14:42pm

Romney’s Idea To Stop Shootings: ‘Changing The Heart Of The American People’

Williams asked, given Romney’s previous positions in support of some forms of gun control, whether there should be a conversation about ”whether an AR-15 belongs in the hands of a citizen, whether a citizen should be able to buy six thousand rounds off the internet.”

Romney’s response, in full:

Well this person shouldn’t have had any kind of weapons and bombs and other devices and it was illegal for him to have many of those things already. But he had them. And so we can sometimes hope that just changing the law will make all bad things go away. It won’t. Changing the heart of the American people may well be what’s essential, to improve the lots of the American people.

And when we need rain, we can have a prayer rally! And if you need a job, just love Jesus more.

11 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:14:45pm

re: #7 engineer cat

yeah, just came back from a company presentation on windows 8

a real solution in search of a problem iffen you ask me

i don't know why they just don't let the software alone for a while instead of constantly screwing around with it

They're desperately trying to regain ground on Apple.

12 Kragar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:15:19pm

re: #9 EdDantes

It's an entirely different kind of flying

Over Macho Grande?

13 EdDantes  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:16:27pm

re: #12 Kragar

Over Macho Grande?

I'll never get over Mach Grande

14 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:16:31pm

Just as long as you don't hear - it's deep and I don't think it's playable, you're good to go. /

Seriously though, good luck and those precautions are always a good idea just in case it doesn't work as advertised.

15 Mattand  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:17:23pm

The Big Lizard said:

By the way, I recommend making a copy of the Mountain Lion installer app before finishing the installation, because the installer app wipes itself out when finished.

Appreciate it. They did this with Lion, and I was hoping for the same with ML.

16 Mattand  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:19:08pm

re: #13 EdDantes

I'll never get over Mach Grande

"Do you know what it's like to fall in the mud and get kicked... in the head... with an iron boot? Of course you don't, no one does. It never happens. Sorry, Ted, that's a dumb question... skip that."

17 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:21:01pm

re: #10 Kragar

Romney’s Idea To Stop Shootings: ‘Changing The Heart Of The American People’

Like maybe one of those mechanical things that Cheney has.

18 Mattand  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:22:06pm

re: #7 engineer cat

yeah, just came back from a company presentation on windows 8

a real solution in search of a problem iffen you ask me

i don't know why they just don't let the software alone for a while instead of constantly screwing around with it

I've been playing around with Windows 8 in Boot Camp. The transition is going to be bumpy, to put it mildly.

My father is limping along with a nearly decade Win XP machine. I'm advising him that if he wants to stick with Windows as he knows it, he needs to get a Win 7 computer prior to October.

Like most non-techs, he doesn't deal with change well. Win 8 will having throwing his computer through a Window.

19 researchok  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:22:25pm

re: #7 engineer cat

What, you have a problem with obscene profit making schemes?
/

20 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:24:14pm

re: #7 engineer cat

yeah, just came back from a company presentation on windows 8

a real solution in search of a problem iffen you ask me

i don't know why they just don't let the software alone for a while instead of constantly screwing around with it

I wish I could upding that twice. (Since you asked, the answer is money.)

21 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:24:16pm

re: #18 Mattand

I've been playing around with Windows 8 in Boot Camp. The transition is going to be bumpy, to put it mildly.

My father is limping along with a nearly decade Win XP machine. I'm advising him that if he wants to stick with Windows as he knows it, he needs to get a Win 7 computer prior to October.

Like most non-techs, he doesn't deal with change well. Win 8 will having throwing his computer through a Window.

What happens in October? Is XP being decommissioned or something? I'm just getting used to it!

22 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:24:45pm

Now on my laptop - I love it when installers put up a message that says "Remaining: 33 minutes" - and then sit there for 20 minutes without changing.

23 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:25:31pm

Here's another mountain lion [Link: newscenter.berkeley.edu...] in case you get burned out on the one you have at home.

24 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:26:31pm

re: #22 Charles Johnson

Now on my laptop - I love it when installers put up a message that says "Remaining: 33 minutes" - and then sit there for 20 minutes without changing.

Well, God created the world in seven days -- but no-one said what length days we're counting.

25 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:26:47pm

Wait - I see a little more blue in the progress bar...

26 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:26:54pm

re: #22 Charles Johnson

Now on my laptop - I love it when installers put up a message that says "Remaining: 33 minutes" - and then sit there for 20 minutes without changing.

Nothing unnerves me more than when an installer puts up an time estimate and then doesn't move.

27 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:27:55pm

re: #17 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

Like maybe one of those mechanical things that Cheney has.

He got an upgrade to a biological one, although it was slightly used.

28 Amory Blaine  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:28:11pm

re: #10 Kragar

Wow. Romney makes a strong argument for marijuana legalization there.

29 dragonath  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:28:22pm

Hey, look what just popped up in the sidebar:

National Review: Huma Abedin’s Muslim Brotherhood Ties

Living up to the McCarthy name!

30 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:29:36pm

re: #27 wrenchwench

He got an upgrade to a biological one, although it was slightly used.

What did he do, rip it out of the chest of the latest young fool who attempted to slay him?

//

31 iossarian  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:29:38pm

re: #28 Amory Blaine

Wow. Romney makes a strong argument for marijuana legalization there.

Dammit law of unintended consequences!

These fools just say what the rubes want to hear, and the rubes lap it up.

32 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:30:02pm

It still says "33 minutes," but now the progress bar is definitely filling in.

33 Mattand  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:31:04pm

re: #21 wrenchwench

What happens in October? Is XP being decommissioned or something? I'm just getting used to it!

Windows 8 goes public in October. IIRC, PCs are going to start shipping with Win 8 pre-installed.

34 dragonath  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:34:47pm

Sweet, the people in the National Review comments are calling Boehner a RINO.

35 EdDantes  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:35:14pm

re: #21 wrenchwench

What happens in October? Is XP being decommissioned or something? I'm just getting used to it!

I read that Microsoft no longer supports XP. I have Windows 7 and will not change to 8 unless I can find a good reason.

36 Kragar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:35:54pm

re: #34 Fred Galt

Sweet, the people in the National Review comments are calling Boehner a RINO.

37 leftynyc  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:37:16pm

Senate is voting on two tax bills. The Republican one - that extended all tax cuts failed 45-54. The Democratic one is expected to be so close that VP Biden is there to oversee the vote. Voting started at 4:30 ET.

38 danarchy  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:37:37pm

re: #11 Targetpractice

They're desperately trying to regain ground on Apple.

Not really about regaining lost ground. They haven't really lost a lot of ground in the desktop/server markets. They are trying to get some traction in the mobile market where their offerings have always been dismal. Windows 8 and the surface tablet may actually get them a foot in the door. The surface pro looks like it may actually achieve the dream of being a tablet that can fully replace a laptop, we'll see if it delivers where all their other mobile OSes have failed.

All of that being said, even when they were ascendant and Apple looked like a failing company they still had a new OS release every 3-4 years. It's what they do. You don't make any money just releasing patches and fixes, they need people upgrading or more likely these days just replacing their computers.

39 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:38:30pm

GOP's now in the process of getting backed into a very bad corner:

Senate GOP Bill To Extend All Bush Tax Cuts For A Year Fails

They're now voting on the Senate Dems plan to extend only the middle class cuts, which smart money said Reid had the votes to get through on a simple majority vote.

40 leftynyc  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:38:47pm

re: #37 leftynyc

Senate is voting on two tax bills. The Republican one - that extended all tax cuts failed 45-54. The Democratic one is expected to be so close that VP Biden is there to oversee the vote. Voting started at 4:30 ET.

Update: Scott Brown and Sue Collins both voted against Republican bill. No indication of how they'll vote on Democratic bill.

41 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:39:44pm

re: #22 Charles Johnson

Now on my laptop - I love it when installers put up a message that says "Remaining: 33 minutes" - and then sit there for 20 minutes without changing.

The Author of the Windows File Copy Dialog Visits Some Friends.

42 EdDantes  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:40:03pm

Windows OS versions are like the Star Trek movies: every other one sucks.

43 Batman  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:42:00pm

I'm in the process of building my first PC. I'm still waiting for all the pieces to come in. I'm sick of Mac and Apple, and their OS X updates are getting lamer and lamer; fewer and fewer changes for me to get excited about. In fact, I got rid of Lion after a few weeks.

Good luck, though.

44 jaunte  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:42:20pm

If this goes on, Apple is going to need more cats.

45 Kragar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:42:57pm

Scarborough: 'America Will Not Survive' if Obama is Re-Elected

Christians either by their not voting or by voting with their emotions in the last election put Barack Obama in the White House. I happen to believe personally, this is not Vision America, this is me speaking, I believe he is the worst president in the history of the country, I believe he is a dangerous president, and I believe America will not survive for more years under his leadership. I can’t imagine a Barack Obama unleashed without another election to face.

It will take thousands of churches and millions of Christians fasting I believe at this point to move the heart of God to relent from the judgment that we have worked so hard to get. Sixty million aborted babies, debts out of control, which is nothing more than generational theft, right now we take a good Godly man like [Chick-fil-A founder] Mr. Truett [Cathy], who founded a company and devoted every resource he had to the advancement and the welfare of his employees and the people who patronize his store, and homosexuals are seeking right now to shut it down. We deserve judgment. We’ve got to have a brokenhearted group of people who understand that, who cry out to God and who partner with us. You must go to the website, you must sign up.

46 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:43:03pm

re: #10 Kragar

Romney’s Idea To Stop Shootings: ‘Changing The Heart Of The American People’

And when we need rain, we can have a prayer rally! And if you need a job, just love Jesus more.

I will completely transform a couple of centuries of American culture in my first 90 days in office.

47 dragonath  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:44:29pm

re: #44 jaunte

If this goes on, Apple is going to need more cats.

OSX 10.9 - Bill the Cat "Cloned from Severed Tongues" Edition

48 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:45:19pm

Personally I like my Vista 64 Ultimate. The only reason I would upgrade to 7 at this point is that to use DirectX 11 for gaming but at this point I haven't seen many games targeting Dx11. I only got the Vista 64 ultimate in order to utilize more RAM anyway. At this point my PC can play the latest games at the highest settings and it's around 4 years old. The only reason I'd even consider a new PC at this point is to take advantage of nVidia's SLI tech but even then most games aren't really designed for it and I haven't really seen it as a necessity.

49 jaunte  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:46:58pm

re: #45 Kragar

It will take thousands of churches and millions of Christians fasting

Scarborough's going to get pushback from Chik-Fil-A on that.

50 Batman  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:47:06pm

re: #44 jaunte

If this goes on, Apple is going to need more cats.

Bobcat, Ocelot, Clouded Leopard, Bay Cat, Margay, Caracal, Jaguarundi. Lynx is off limits, though.

51 EdDantes  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:48:55pm

re: #50 Batman

Bobcat, Ocelot, Clouded Leopard, Bay Cat, Margay, Caracal, Jaguarundi. Lynx is off limits, though.

Apple's next cat.

[Link: ffffound.com...]

52 Kragar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:48:58pm

re: #49 jaunte

Scarborough's going to get pushback from Chik-Fil-A on that.

I fast every day for hours at a time sometimes.

53 leftynyc  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:49:32pm

re: #45 Kragar


I had to click the link because it sure didn't sound like Joe Scarborough who I suspect will vote for Romney but has repeatedly said he like the President.

54 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:50:39pm

(paraphrased)

McConnell: "We need to stop wasting time on this bill and do major things, like budgets or appropriations bills."

Reid: "How can we that when there's been 85 filibusters?"

55 dragonath  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:50:50pm

re: #51 EdDantes

That wasn't cool.

56 iossarian  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:52:01pm

re: #54 Targetpractice

(paraphrased)

McConnell: "We need to stop wasting time on this bill and do major things, like budgets or appropriations bills."

Reid: "How can we that when there's been 85 filibusters?"

Exactly. McConnell is about as deceitful as they come. Not to mention his absurd non-sequitur that the bill simultaneously hardly raises any revenue and is a nuclear bomb for the economy.

Pick one Mitch. It can't be both.

57 Kragar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:52:36pm

re: #53 leftynyc

I had to click the link because it sure didn't sound like Joe Scarborough who I suspect will vote for Romney but has repeatedly said he like the President.

Rick, not Joe.

58 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:53:03pm

re: #33 Mattand

Windows 8 goes public in October. IIRC, PCs are going to start shipping with Win 8 pre-installed.

OK, so to keep "Windows as he knows it", get Win 7 before it's gone. Now I get it.

re: #35 EdDantes

I read that Microsoft no longer supports XP. I have Windows 7 and will not change to 8 unless I can find a good reason.

I'm still getting updates regularly. I guess I should modernize a bit....

59 leftynyc  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:55:16pm

re: #57 Kragar

Rick, not Joe.

I saw that. Should I be embarassed that I have no idea who that is?

60 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:55:17pm

re: #56 iossarian

Exactly. McConnell is about as deceitful as they come. Not to mention his absurd non-sequitur that the bill simultaneously hardly raises any revenue and is a nuclear bomb for the economy.

Pick one Mitch. It can't be both.

He was going on about how it's all a campaign stunt, that the Democrats are pushing the issue to make Republicans look bad, knowing the bill won't go anywhere.

Unsaid is that the Republicans want to hold this issue over the electorate like a Sword of Damocles, telling folks that only by giving Republicans control of the Senate can they keep those taxes from coming down on everybody's heads.

61 JeffM70  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:55:54pm

I'm currently preparing my Macbook Pro for updating to Mountain Lion. I've run Mackeeper 2012 to clear up unresolved issues. Run all software updates. Will back everything up when I get home. My old Macbook ran soooo sllllooooowww after I upgraded to Snow Leopard a few years back. I do not want a repeat performance, although it could have been I didn't have enough RAM to run SL properly.

62 Amory Blaine  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:57:47pm

Law Making ALEC Style

63 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:59:43pm

it seems you will be able to get back to a normal looking desktop if you get a machine preinstalled with windows 8

you will just have to fight a million unfamiliar navigation metaphors to get there

64 Mattand  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:59:46pm

re: #58 wrenchwench

OK, so to keep "Windows as he knows it", get Win 7 before it's gone. Now I get it.

re: #35 EdDantes

I'm still getting updates regularly. I guess I should modernize a bit...

Here's the support schedule for the last 3 versions of Windows, direct from the horse's hard drive.

Looks like XP Service Pack 3 is still being supported for another few years, so you've got some breathing room.

65 Mattand  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:00:31pm

re: #63 engineer cat

it seems you will be able to get back to a normal looking desktop if you get a machine preinstalled with windows 8

you will just have to fight a million unfamiliar navigation metaphors to get there

That's what's throwing me. You have to train yourself to constantly hit the Window key on your keyboard.

66 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:03:22pm

re: #64 Mattand

Here's the support schedule for the last 3 versions of Windows, direct from the horse's hard drive.

Looks like XP Service Pack 3 is still being supported for another few years, so you've got some breathing room.

Oh, thank FSM!!

And thank you.

67 Batman  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:03:54pm

re: #63 engineer cat

it seems you will be able to get back to a normal looking desktop if you get a machine preinstalled with windows 8

you will just have to fight a million unfamiliar navigation metaphors to get there

I don't get the confusion over the new UI, and I haven't decided to hate it. All those buttons simply take you to various fullscreen apps -- like what Mac users have been whining for and Apple has been trying to give them the last couple updates, but with a much nicer UI.

68 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:04:02pm

I will upgrade from windows xp when my current computers die. (All right, I do have one machine running win 7.) And the macbook pro will stay with Leopard as long as possible.

(In my youth I was always the first upgrader on the block, how experience changes us....)

69 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:04:53pm

Spamish

"i'm taking Spamish classes so i can read my emails"

70 Amory Blaine  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:04:56pm

Wisconsin Republican Senator Believes Voter ID Will Help Romney ‘In A Close Race’

With polls showing a surprisingly tight presidential race in Wisconsin, the state’s new voter ID law could make the difference for Mitt Romney, according to the State Senate Minority Assistant Leader Glenn Grothman (R).

Grothman helped pass voter ID in Wisconsin last year, which disenfranchises citizens who don’t bring a certain form of photo identification with them to the polls.

In an interview with ThinkProgress on Sunday, the number-two Republican senator argued that voter ID could be a boon for Republicans’ electoral prospects if the controversial law, which was recently blocked in state court, is reinstated in time for the November election. “Insofar as there are inappropriate things, people who vote inappropriately are more likely to vote Democrat,” argued Grothman.

71 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:06:00pm

re: #68 Someone Please Beam Me Up!

I will upgrade from windows xp when my current computers die. (All right, I do have one machine running win 7.) And the macbook pro will stay with Leopard as long as possible.

(In my youth I was always the first upgrader on the block, how experience changes us...)

Yeah, after serving as a Win98 beta tester (Win95 user) for years, you quickly grown weary of the latest items from the halls of Redmond.

72 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:06:59pm

re: #67 Batman

I don't get the confusion over the new UI, and I haven't decided to hate it. All those buttons simply take you to various fullscreen apps -- like what Mac users have been whining for and Apple has been trying to give them the last couple updates, but with a much nicer UI.

my gripe is that we will all get used to it since we have to, and then we'll be screaming bloody murder again five years from now when windows 11 comes out with yet another completely brand new UI metaphor

73 darthstar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:07:24pm

Anybody know the score(vote) on the Democratic tax cut in the Senate?

74 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:07:58pm

re: #73 darthstar

Anybody know the score(vote) on the Democratic tax cut in the Senate?

51-48. It's good!

75 darthstar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:08:26pm

re: #73 darthstar

Anybody know the score(vote) on the Democratic tax cut in the Senate?

51-48 - it passed.

76 jaunte  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:09:39pm

re: #70 Amory Blaine

“Insofar as there are inappropriate things, people who vote inappropriately are more likely to vote Democrat,” argued Grothman.

"This is the room for arguments; bald assertions are Room 23"

77 dragonfire1981  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:09:43pm

re: #75 darthstar

51-48 - it passed.

So now does it get sent back to the House to be killed or does it move forward?

78 dragonfire1981  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:10:28pm

British Hotel replaces Gideons Bibles with "Fifty Shades of Grey"

The owner says the highest amount of criticism over this action has come from the U.S.

79 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:10:43pm

re: #77 dragonfire1981

So now does it get sent back to the House to be killed or does it move forward?

Way it works is that now, when the House takes up their own bill to extend the tax cuts, the Senate bill automatically amends it, and then sends it back to the House for a vote. Boehner's now stuck with the reality that, no matter what House Republicans pass, they're gonna get back a bill saying only the middle-class cuts gets extended.

80 darthstar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:11:06pm

re: #74 Targetpractice

51-48. It's good!

81 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:11:14pm

i'm gonna bring out a computer with a UI like a 1920s radio console:

Image: radiola5.jpg

82 darthstar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:11:30pm

re: #77 dragonfire1981

So now does it get sent back to the House to be killed or does it move forward?

It goes back to the House where the crying orange fucker will try to kill it.

83 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:14:25pm
Anyway, I’m going in. Cover me.

Image: Atrapitis.gif

84 EdDantes  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:15:06pm

re: #71 Targetpractice

Yeah, after serving as a Win98 beta tester (Win95 user) for years, you quickly grown weary of the latest items from the halls of Redmond.

I "upgraded" from Win95 to win98. It was like dropping an anchor from a speed boat.

85 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:16:01pm

re: #80 darthstar

Awesome. Now the crying orange man can try to kill it along with his evil henchmen.

86 Kragar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:16:22pm

House Republicans To Boehner: If We Can’t Repeal Obamacare, Shut Down The Government

Despite the possibility of a standoff with the Democrat-controlled Senate and a veto threat from President Obama, the Republicans called for defunding Obamacare while continuing attempts to repeal the heath care reform law:

Since much of the implementation of ObamaCare is a function of the discretionary appropriations process, and since most of the citizens we represent believe that ObamaCare should never go into effect, we urge you not to bring to the House floor in the 112th Congress any legislation that provides or allows funds to implement ObamaCare through the Internal Revenue Service, the Department of Health and Human Services, or any other federal entity. We also urge you to take legislative steps necessary to immediately rescind all ObamaCare-implementation funds.

87 Amory Blaine  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:16:38pm

Walker Outspent Barrett 6:1 in Recall

From the article:

The overall spending was more than double the previous record of $37.4 million, which was set in the 2010 race for governor.

This time, Walker's campaign spent $36.1 million, nearly two-thirds of which came from out of state. He was able to raise so much because of his national profile and a quirk of state law that allowed him to raise unlimited sums for certain recall expenses. He collected two donations of $500,000 - 50 times the usual $10,000 limit per donor.

Walker was also helped by groups backing him. The Republican Governors Association spent $9.4 million supporting Walker; business lobbyists Wisconsin Manufacturers & Commerce spent an estimated $4 million to help Walker and Senate Republicans also facing recall; and Americans for Prosperity and the MacIver Institute for Public Policy jointly spent an estimated $3.7 million touting Walker's policies.

Barrett spent $6.6 million, about a sixth of what Walker spent. The Greater Wisconsin Committee spent nearly $6.7 million to help Barrett and other Democrats. Wisconsin for Falk, a labor-backed group that ran ads to help former Dane County Executive Kathleen Falk in the Democratic primary, spent $4.5 million. And We Are Wisconsin, another union-funded group, spent $3.7 million to help Democrats.

88 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:16:48pm

re: #77 dragonfire1981

So now does it get sent back to the House to be killed or does it move forward?

all democratic bills are sentenced to Death in the House

89 darthstar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:16:53pm

re: #81 engineer cat

i'm gonna bring out a computer with a UI like a 1920s radio console:

Image: radiola5.jpg

Buddy of mine just bought a new Mcintosh amp with vacuum tubes...gorgeous piece of technology...but the damn things aren't cheap. The sound, however, is beautiful.

Image: 547216_3828886408040_800631814_n.jpg

90 Batman  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:16:57pm
91 dragonfire1981  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:17:20pm

re: #88 engineer cat

all democratic bills sre sentenced to Death in the House

to the Gulag with you!

92 Mattand  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:20:11pm

re: #67 Batman

I don't get the confusion over the new UI, and I haven't decided to hate it. All those buttons simply take you to various fullscreen apps -- like what Mac users have been whining for and Apple has been trying to give them the last couple updates, but with a much nicer UI.

Two things:

1) It's anecdotal, but most of the Windows users I know aren't tech heads, and don't adapt to change well. I think the problem is going to be the two graphically different interfaces in Windows 8; the clean graphic one you're presented with, and the more traditional desktop that's hidden underneath.

I could be wrong, but people are used to seeing that desktop first, and they're going to have a hard time grasping the switching between the two. Again, I know people who still don't understand how to use the file Explorer. They will stroke out over Windows 8.

2. The OS X comparison falls apart in that all of apps like iCal and Mail are sitting on a dock at the bottom of the screen, and out of the way. They're not "hiding" the work area. The Windows 8 model demands you look at them first.

93 Mattand  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:21:57pm

re: #86 Kragar

House Republicans To Boehner: If We Can’t Repeal Obamacare, Shut Down The Government

Maddow is right. Boehner is really, really bad at this job.

94 darthstar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:24:01pm

re: #93 Mattand

Maddow is right. Boehner is really, really bad at this job.

It's a good thing he knows how to sweep saloon floors. He may need to go back to that if Ohio pulls its collective head out of its ass in November.

95 Kragar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:29:50pm

Romney Falsely Claims Colorado Gunman Obtained Weapons Illegally

According to a transcript of an interview that will air Wednesday night on NBC Nightly News, the presidential candidate said “it was illegal for him to have many of those [weapons] already,” and suggested that stronger gun laws would not have prevented the tragedy. Instead, Romney claimed that the way to deal with such senseless violence is by “changing the heart of the American people”:

ROMNEY: Well this person shouldn’t have had any kind of weapons and bombs and other devices and it was illegal for him to have many of those things already. But he had them. And so we can sometimes hope that just changing the law will make all bad things go away. It won’t. Changing the heart of the American people may well be what’s essential, to improve the lots of the American people.

In fact, 24-year-old Holmes legally purchased every firearm, bullet, and piece of tactical gear that he used for the attack, according to local law enforcement. He bought most of it over the Internet. Mentally ill people are barred from purchasing firearms, but Holmes had no previous record of illness, and would not have been flagged in a background check.

LIAR!

96 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:30:12pm

poor old boehner belongs in 1966 in the den of a ranch house in the burbs with a scotch in his hand watching reruns of gunsmoke

97 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:30:57pm

re: #95 Kragar

Romney Falsely Claims Colorado Gunman Obtained Weapons Illegally

LIAR!

Next he'll pull the "Even if he had no guns, he'd have used explosives!" bit that's become popular amongst the wingnuts.

98 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:31:02pm

re: #96 engineer cat

poor old boehner belongs in 1966 in the den of a ranch house in the burbs with a scotch in his hand watching reruns of gunsmoke

It was still in first run then, except in the summer.

99 darthstar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:31:13pm

re: #96 engineer cat

poor old boehner belongs in 1966 in the den of a ranch house in the burbs with a scotch in his hand watching reruns of gunsmoke

While he chain-smokes Pall Mall unfiltered cigarettes.

100 EdDantes  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:31:17pm

There is good news from Washington today. Congress is deadlocked and can't act.
- Will Rogers

101 Batman  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:31:25pm

re: #92 Mattand

Everyone has a smartphone and/or tablet, so they should be able to grasp 8. The Desktop isn't supposed to be thought of as underneath --and it's not hidden-- but another "app" so to speak. I know it's going to be very weird at first, but I'm confident people will understand it quickly enough. It's actually designed specifically for those people who stroke out over the file browser.

Yes, that is the main difference between the way the two are doing it now. Mac brings you the desktop first and has you press Mission Control to bring everything up. Windows simply combines Mission Control and Launch Pad and puts it above everything else. Imagine logging into OS X and seeing Mission Control and then clicking Desktop 1. There you go.

102 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:32:31pm

re: #101 Batman

Everyone has a smartphone and/or tablet, so they should be able to grasp 8.

This is true only for certain definitions of "everyone", such as "not everyone". I don't have one yet (still waiting to see if they catch on).

103 Kragar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:34:06pm

re: #101 Batman

Everyone has a smartphone and/or tablet

I don't.

104 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:35:15pm

I use my sister's iPad when I want to kill time away from my desktop by watching some Youtube videos or doing some light surfing. But I would not rely upon it for my regular internet activity and I surely do not want my desktop trying to masquerade as a tablet computer.

105 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:35:24pm

re: #101 Batman

Everyone has a smartphone and/or tablet, so they should

but i dowanna!

106 Batman  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:35:52pm

re: #102 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

This is true only for certain definitions of "everyone", such as "not everyone". I don't have one yet (still waiting to see if they catch on).

I don't either, actually. I say everyone because it seems like absolutely everyone I know has one or more. The point, too, is that "everyone" is functionally retarded when it comes to computers, but they zip along in their smartphones like it's their third arm, or second brain.

107 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:35:58pm

Why is the level of reporting on taxes so terrible? I'm tired of lazy ass hack journalism:

The partisan 51-48 vote was a victory for Democrats and averted what would have been a campaign-season embarrassment for them and the White House. The bill closely follows the tax-cutting vision of President Barack Obama.

The measure would extend tax cuts in 2013 that otherwise would expire in January. It would deny those reductions to individuals making over $200,000 and couples earning at least $250,000.

No, "those reductions," meaning the ones that are being extended, apply to everyone, regardless of how much money they make. What's not being extended are the Bush tax reductions on income over $200-250K per year. Income earned by people under that amount continues to be taxed rate Bush rate, income earned over and above that amount goes back to the old Clinton era rate.

Income, not people, is taxed in tiers, brackets, progressively, but you wouldn't know that from the level of economic reporting in this country. It is no wonder why we have citizens working their entire lives not understanding the basic goddamned structure of the tax system they pay into.

108 dragonath  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:37:40pm

I'm hoping that the IPod eventually gets good enough pressure sensitivity to break Wacom's hold on the drawing tablet market.

109 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:38:05pm

re: #101 Batman

Everyone has a smartphone and/or tablet

You're so wrong.

110 darthstar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:38:55pm

So my wife and I will have to pay higher taxes on about $50K next year. I'm okay with that.

112 darthstar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:39:42pm
113 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:40:11pm

re: #110 darthstar

So my wife and I will have to pay higher taxes on about $50K next year. I'm okay with that.

Communist! Everyone knows that the Clinton Era tax rates stifled innovation and made our economy look like North Korea's.

114 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:40:28pm

re: #111 Killgore Trout

Our Ruling

The ad from the Obama campaign said Romney "backed a bill that outlaws all abortions, even in cases of rape and incest."

The Obama campaign provides virtually nothing to back that up, however. It has no evidence that Romney explicitly opposed the exception for rape and incest. While he supported the "human life amendment," there are many versions and the most recent ones allow abortion after rape or incest. And it's worth noting that in 2011, Romney declared that has said he supports those exceptions.

In its effort to appeal to women, the Obama campaign has twisted Romney's position to a ridiculous degree. We rate the claim Pants on Fire.

115 Mattand  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:40:46pm

re: #101 Batman

Everyone has a smartphone and/or tablet, so they should be able to grasp 8.

re: #102 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

This is true only for certain definitions of "everyone", such as "not everyone". I don't have one yet (still waiting to see if they catch on).

I'm as tech savy as they come, and I still don't have a smartphone or a tablet. Many of my Windows using friends have neither as well. I don't think that's a good argument for the interface Windows 8 is using.

Look, even though I use a Mac, I don't hate Windows 8. I applaud them for thinking outside the box. Again, it's anecdotal, but most people I know who use computers are not interested in tech, other than will it allow them to get their work done. It's going to be a rough transition.

As for Lion: I never upgraded from Snow Leopard, so I can't speak from experience. However, I was under the impression that Mission Control was optional and not mandatory. I'll probably find out later next week when I upgrade to Mountain Lion.

116 darthstar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:42:12pm

re: #113 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

Communist! Everyone knows that the Clinton Era tax rates stifled innovation and made our economy look like North Korea's.

Speaking of North Korea, they showed the South Korean flag as the NK ladies soccer team took the field today in the Olympics, and they walked off in protest...took an hour to apologize enough for them to take the field...they're beating Columbia 2-0.

117 gwangung  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:43:34pm

re: #116 darthstar

Speaking of North Korea, they showed the South Korean flag as the NK ladies soccer team took the field today in the Olympics, and they walked off in protest...took an hour to apologize enough for them to take the field...they're beating Columbia 2-0.

Ow. Sorry to say, but I think the NK team had a legitimate beef.

118 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:44:24pm

re: #111 Killgore Trout

Obama ad says Romney opposed abortion, even in cases of rape and incest
Pants on fire!

I thought we did this one already. Romney did express support for a hypothetical bill that had no exceptions, and he has expressed support for a Personhood Amendment. I give politifact two pantses on fire.

119 Kragar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:44:44pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

Our Ruling

Romney is bending over backwards to court the Evangelicals, who are attempting to outlaw all abortions.

120 dragonath  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:45:37pm

Mitt Romney has no opinion on anything, therefore, nothing he says is technically bound to the truth. Trololo

121 darthstar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:45:47pm

re: #117 gwangung

Ow. Sorry to say, but I think the NK team had a legitimate beef.

Yes, I'd say it was a legit complaint too. No need for sloppy mistakes like that, unless Fox News is in charge of the displays.

122 blueraven  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:46:09pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

Our Ruling

He has had so many positions it is hard to know.
He did say in the debate mentioned that he would sign a bill that banned all abortions.

Take it for what its worth.

123 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:47:17pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

Our Ruling

Here's the basis for the claim in the ad, listed in the ad itself:

JOURNEY: Hi. My name is Journey. I'm from Texas. And this question is for all (inaudible) pro-life candidates.

In the event that abortion becomes illegal and a woman obtains an abortion anyway, what should she be charged with, and what should her punishment be? What about the doctor who performs the abortion?

...

ROMNEY: I agree with Senator Thompson, which is we should overturn Roe v. Wade and return these issues to the states.

ROMNEY: I would welcome a circumstance where there was such a consensus in this country that we said, we don't want to have abortion in this country at all, period. That would be wonderful. I'd be delighted.

COOPER: The question is: Would you sign that bill?

ROMNEY: Let me say it. I'd be delighted to sign that bill. But that's not where we are. That's not where America is today. Where America is is ready to overturn Roe v. Wade and return to the states that authority. But if the Congress got there, we had that kind of consensus in that country, terrific.

124 jaunte  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:47:24pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

He might go there if he could follow, but he didn't say so explicitly:

The Obama ad bases its claim that Romney opposes abortion in cases of rape and incest on a CNN debate that took place in November 2007. Romney said then that he wished the country would not have abortion “at all, period.” He did not explicitly say anything about rape or incest, however.

“I would welcome a circumstance where there was such a consensus in this country that we said, ‘We don’t want to have abortion in this country at all, period,’ ” Romney said in the debate, according to a transcript provided by the Obama campaign. “That would be wonderful.”

Romney went on to say, “But that’s not where we are. That’s not where America is today, where America is is ready to overturn Roe v. Wade and return to the states that authority. But if the Congress got there, we had that kind of consensus in the country, terrific.”
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

125 darthstar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:47:25pm

re: #122 blueraven

He has had so many positions it is hard to know.
He did say in the debate mentioned that he would sign a bill that banned all abortions.

Take it for what its worth.

Romney's not going to make a dent in the women's vote.

126 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:48:42pm

re: #122 blueraven

He has had so many positions it is hard to know.
He did say in the debate mentioned that he would sign a bill that banned all abortions.

Take it for what its worth.

Just looked this up. In fact he said he'd be delighted to sign it.

127 gwangung  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:49:09pm

re: #126 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

Just looked this up. In fact he said he'd be delighted to sign it.

So why is this a "pants on fire" thing?

128 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:50:24pm

re: #111 Killgore Trout

Obama ad says Romney opposed abortion, even in cases of rape and incest
Pants on fire!

at that rate the republican party has incinerated several fashionable department stores

129 Kragar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:50:58pm

re: #127 gwangung

So why is this a "pants on fire" thing?

Because shut up, thats why.

130 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:51:06pm

re: #127 gwangung

So why is this a "pants on fire" thing?

You're asking me?

131 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:52:12pm

re: #126 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

Just looked this up. In fact he said he'd be delighted to sign it.

My apologies to goddamnedfrank. He got there first with the actual text, which I failed to notice.

132 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:53:06pm

the romney is a transcendental being whose opinions are both nowhere and everywhere

therefore, no statements about what he says are accurate, and every statement about what he says is accurate

133 darthstar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:53:33pm

Watching the Swedish women's soccer team right now...all those fit blonde gals running around...it's really quite lovely.

134 garhighway  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:53:44pm

re: #132 engineer cat

the romney is a transcendental being whose opinions are both nowhere and everywhere

therefore, no statements about what he says are accurate, and every statement about what he says is accurate

But if you look in the box, Romney dies.

135 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:53:59pm

re: #101 Batman

Everyone has a smartphone and/or tablet, so they should be able to grasp 8.

I don't have either. But I still have a powerbook running OS 8.5!

136 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:55:06pm

re: #135 Someone Please Beam Me Up!

I don't have either. But I still have a powerbook running OS 8.5!

I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

137 dragonath  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:55:41pm

re: #135 Someone Please Beam Me Up!

Is it a Powerbook Pismo by any chance?

138 jaunte  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:55:44pm

re: #127 gwangung

He'll be delighted to sign it at some time in the future when it's more popular to do so.

139 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:56:50pm

Politifact?

140 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:56:57pm

re: #137 Fred Galt

Is it a Powerbook Pismo by any chance?

Too advanced for me. WallStreet.

141 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:57:22pm

re: #127 gwangung

because, at this point, politifact is trying to be "balanced".

142 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:58:07pm

re: #127 gwangung

So why is this a "pants on fire" thing?

Politifact is desperate to avoid things like looking up citations and reading and stuff, because it's hard. It's much easier for them to completely ignore and refuse to address the evidence. They also want to appear neutral and evenhanded by finding equal fault with both sides no matter how deliberately obtuse and contortionist they have to become.

143 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:58:43pm

re: #132 engineer cat

the romney is a transcendental being whose opinions are both nowhere and everywhere

therefore, no statements about what he says are accurate, and every statement about what he says is accurate

Image: funny-cat-pictures-schrdinger-you-bastard.jpg

144 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:59:16pm

re: #58 wrenchwench

OK, so to keep "Windows as he knows it", get Win 7 before it's gone. Now I get it.

re: #35 EdDantes

I'm still getting updates regularly. I guess I should modernize a bit...

[Link: www.microsoft.com...]
Windows XP SP3 and Office 2003 Support Ends April 8, 2014

I messed around with the preview of Windows 8, and it looks like the stupidest thing they've released since Microsoft Bob. It might make a small amount of sense on a tablet, but for laptops and desktops? Ha.

145 gwangung  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:59:23pm

re: #130 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

You're asking me?

Anyone? Help?

(Sorry...being facetious here....though I didn't think Politifact was as worked over as they appear to be...)

146 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:00:31pm

re: #139 Varek Raith

Politifact?

[Embedded content]

"You can get something 'wildly' wrong and still only be mostly wrong about it? What does it take to get a False rating at a Politifact?"

147 JoyP  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:01:09pm

Just switched to a Mac after years on PC. I have to admit having a little trouble getting around so I guess I'll wait on the upgrade.

148 Batman  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:01:13pm

re: #115 Mattand

Mission Control replaces the main Exposé function. Instead of just showing all windows on the desktop, it also shows all Spaces and Dashboard, which is its own Space now. And any app you put into fullscreen mode, like Safari and QuickTime videos, gets its own Space in Mission Control. Okay, now imagine more apps, including all of the basic ones you use (email, messaging, and social networking sites like Twitter and Facebook), are automatically fullscreen and get their own Space in Mission Control (thus doing away with the need for Launch Pad, which I thought was pointless anyhow). Now give it a trendier UI with more economical use of space. There you have Windows 8. Also, that's basically what smartphones are like.

Here is a video of people using it, albeit with touchscreen monitors and netbooks. See how easily they glide around the UI? Sure, they're actors, but it won't be long before everyone who has 8 is doing the same.

149 EdDantes  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:01:40pm

Apropos of nothing: I remember hearing on the radio circa 1975 that the number one song in China was,"How I love to carry manure up the hill for the collective."
I can't find it on the interwebs but I was wondering if it was actually a reference to Capitol hill.

150 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:02:04pm

re: #144 Temporarily Embarrassed Millionaire

[Link: www.microsoft.com...]
Windows XP SP3 and Office 2003 Support Ends April 8, 2014

I messed around with the preview of Windows 8, and it looks like the stupidest thing they've released since Microsoft Bob. It might make a small amount of sense on a tablet, but for laptops and desktops? Ha.

Thanks!

151 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:02:18pm

What kind of person outsources their own critical thinking skills to a third party so called "fact checking" website?

152 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:02:42pm

re: #147 JoyP

Just switched to a Mac after years on PC. I have to admit having a little trouble getting around so I guess I'll wait on the upgrade.

Welcome, hatchling.

153 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:04:15pm

re: #147 JoyP

Just switched to a Mac after years on PC. I have to admit having a little trouble getting around so I guess I'll wait on the upgrade.

If you have any questions just ask us for help. A lot of LGF users are on macs and we've helped several people through the transition.

154 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:04:38pm

re: #152 wrenchwench

Welcome, hatchling.

In more ways than one, it would appear. But either way, welcome.

155 blueraven  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:05:08pm

re: #145 gwangung

Anyone? Help?

I think, people have nailed it. Politifact wants to appear balanced.
This should not be a pants on fire rating. At the most this should have been a half true.

He said he would sign a bill banning all abortions.
It was a hypothetical bill but he still said it.

156 Mattand  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:06:20pm

re: #148 Batman

Mission Control replaces the main Exposé function. Instead of just showing all windows on the desktop, it also shows all Spaces and Dashboard, which is its own Space now. And any app you put into fullscreen mode, like Safari and QuickTime videos, gets its own Space in Mission Control. Okay, now imagine more apps, including all of the basic ones you use (email, messaging, and social networking sites like Twitter and Facebook), are automatically fullscreen and get their own Space in Mission Control (thus doing away with the need for Launch Pad, which I thought was pointless anyhow). Now give it a trendier UI with more economical use of space. There you have Windows 8. Also, that's basically what smartphones are like.

Here is a video of people using it, albeit with touchscreen monitors and netbooks. See how easily they glide around the UI? Sure, they're actors, but it won't be long before everyone who has 8 is doing the same.

When you boot into your account, are presented with/forced to use MC, or can you avoid it and just use the Finder?

157 MichaelJ  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:08:28pm

Little Snitch works fine for me in 10.8. You must not have the latest version.

158 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:10:24pm

re: #157 MichaelJ

Little Snitch works fine for me in 10.8. You must not have the latest version.

Yeah, I didn't have version 3. Now I do.

159 blueraven  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:10:47pm

re: #151 goddamnedfrank

What kind of person outsources their own critical thinking skills to a third party so called "fact checking" website?

Since the WaPo fact checker has gone all soft and backed off of the Bain stuff, gotta go elsewhere.
Scraping the bottom of the barrel one will find Politifact.

160 dragonfire1981  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:11:36pm
161 MichaelJ  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:11:39pm

Snapz Pro coming soon. From the developer's website:

Is Snapz Pro X compatible with Mac OS X Mountain Lion, 10.8?
Last Updated Jul 11, 2012

The current version of Snapz Pro X is not fully compatible with Mac OS X Mountain Lion, 10.8:
Screen, Selection, and Movie captures (including the microphone track) still work.
Using the Object capture will cause Snapz to crash.
Mac Audio capture will not work. The KEXT used for Mac Audio capture should be uninstalled automatically by the OS. If used, it will result in a kernel panic.
All of our resources are working together on rewriting Snapz Pro X to provide full compatibility, many bug fixes, and better performance. It is unlikely that this major update will be available in time for Mountain Lion's public release, but it not be far behind. This major update will be free to all registered users of Snapz Pro X. If you would like to be notified of future releases, please join our mailing list.

162 darthstar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:12:18pm

re: #160 dragonfire1981

Just seen on the walls of a number of people on my Facebook feed.

Easy reply: Their food is still shit.

163 MichaelJ  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:12:44pm

re: #158 Charles Johnson

I'm using version 2.5.3 of Little Snitch in Mountain Lion.

164 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:13:11pm
165 Kragar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:13:26pm

re: #160 dragonfire1981

Just seen on the walls of a number of people on my Facebook feed.

From the same people who tell Google they need to shut up and mind their own business of gay marriage.

166 gwangung  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:14:13pm

re: #160 dragonfire1981

Just seen on the walls of a number of people on my Facebook feed.

If they can't stand the heat, stay out of the chicken kitchen.

167 darthstar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:14:44pm

re: #166 gwangung

If they can't stand the heat, stay out of the chicken kitchen.

Bunch of chicken-fuckers.

168 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:15:03pm

What infernal serpent
Has lent you his forked tongue?
From what pit of foul deceit
Are all these whoppers sprung?

Deceiver, dissembler
Your trousers are alight
From what pole or gallows
Do they dangle in the night?

“The Liar” by William Blake.

169 Batman  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:15:26pm

re: #156 Mattand

When you boot into your account, are presented with/forced to use MC, or can you avoid it and just use the Finder?

Like I said, you use it like you would Exposé. You are on your normal desktop and then press the Exposé key or click the Mission Control icon in the Dock to bring it up. It's optional until you want to see all of your windows Exposé'd. Like so.

170 blueraven  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:16:22pm

re: #168 Killgore Trout

What infernal serpent
Has lent you his forked tongue?
From what pit of foul deceit
Are all these whoppers sprung?

Deceiver, dissembler
Your trousers are alight
From what pole or gallows
Do they dangle in the night?

“The Liar” by William Blake.

It almost sounds like he knew Mitt.

171 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:18:22pm

re: #148 Batman

Mission Control replaces the main Exposé function. Instead of just showing all windows on the desktop, it also shows all Spaces and Dashboard, which is its own Space now. And any app you put into fullscreen mode, like Safari and QuickTime videos, gets its own Space in Mission Control. Okay, now imagine more apps, including all of the basic ones you use (email, messaging, and social networking sites like Twitter and Facebook), are automatically fullscreen and get their own Space in Mission Control (thus doing away with the need for Launch Pad, which I thought was pointless anyhow). Now give it a trendier UI with more economical use of space. There you have Windows 8. Also, that's basically what smartphones are like.

Here is a video of people using it, albeit with touchscreen monitors and netbooks. See how easily they glide around the UI? Sure, they're actors, but it won't be long before everyone who has 8 is doing the same.

your problem is that you aren't an ornery old codger who hates the modern world, never wants anything to change, and is about to tell those punks to get offa his lawn

like me

172 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:19:08pm

Snapz Pro actually does work for screenshots, my main use for it.

173 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:19:59pm

re: #171 engineer cat

your problem is that you aren't an ornery old codger who hates the modern world, never wants anything to change, and is about to tell those punks to get offa his lawn

like me

I'm gonna hafta get a lawn pretty soon.

174 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:20:46pm
175 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:22:22pm

Can't we all just get a lawn?

176 darthstar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:22:58pm

Carole King for Barack Obama (countdown to Romney calling it an attack ad from foreign royalty in 3..2..1..)


177 jaunte  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:23:06pm

re: #174 wrenchwench

"That hyphen was grandfathered in."

178 Batman  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:23:10pm

re: #171 engineer cat

your problem is that you aren't an ornery old codger who hates the modern world, never wants anything to change, and is about to tell those punks to get offa his lawn

like me

I can understand that. I like new things and changes. If you don't want anything to change, ever, use Linux. I kid.

It seems like Windows and Mac are heading in the same direction, but at the moment Apple is just piling things on and making a mess, whereas MS is trying to retool the system to make it more efficient. Before too long, Mac will have its own radical (but pretty much the same thing as 8) UI, but they'll call it OS 11.

179 darthstar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:23:19pm

re: #175 wrenchwench

Can't we all just get a lawn?

It's been a lawn time coming.

180 Mattand  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:24:03pm

re: #169 Batman

Like I said, you use it like you would Exposé. You are on your normal desktop and then press the Exposé key or click the Mission Control icon in the Dock to bring it up. It's optional until you want to see all of your windows Exposé'd. Like so.

Just did a quick Mission Control tour via YouTube. I think where your MC/Win8 analogy falls apart is that Mission Control is optional. The Windows 8 icon landing screen isn't.

Based on your knowledge, I'm guessing you're fairly computer tech savvy. Here's one thing I learned a long time ago about computers: most people aren't that savvy. The average "civilian" regards them with apathy at best, and mortal terror at worst.

What you or I consider easy or second nature, the average user views as alchemy. One should keep that in mind when talking about how people will accept Windows 8.

Am I wrong? Possibly. It tends to happen a lot; I thought the first iMac's lack of floppy disk was going to doom it. And MS innovating forces Apple to up its game.

However, IMO, the whole Windows 8 all-in-one interface for both tablets and computers is not the best approach. It's a radical UI sea change that fails to take into account the mindset of the average computer user.

181 Mattand  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:24:46pm

re: #179 darthstar

It's been a lawn time coming.

Better get Blade.

182 blueraven  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:26:33pm

re: #181 Mattand

Better get Blade.

Needs mower power

183 Kragar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:26:55pm

Tea Party Nation wants Boehner to "grow a pair" and support Bachmann's witchhunt

It is not shocking that the Party of Treason is attacking Michele Bachmann. They attach anyone who loves this nation and believes in patriotic values. What is very disturbing is Republicans are turning on her.

Perhaps it is not shocking that John Boehner has turned on Michele Bachmann. Boehner acts like he takes his orders from Obama, not the people who put him in the speaker’s chair.

Michele Bachmann has been a courageous voice in the Congress. She has stood for America and American values, even when it has been hard to do.

Where the hell is the Republican establishment? They are putting John Boehner’s freshly laundered white flag of surrender into the breeze to see which way it is blowing.

Is it asking John Boehner and the rest of the Republican leadership too much to grow a pair?

184 darthstar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:27:00pm

re: #181 Mattand

Better get Blade.

Did that in college all the time.

185 jaunte  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:30:26pm

re: #183 Kragar

In the middle of this spat, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich has emerged in Bachmann's defense and is literally striking down the arguments against her in broad daylight.

It's going to be a lawn lawn lawn lawn time before the dawn.

186 andres  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:30:53pm
187 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:31:16pm

Colorado Suspect Mailed Massacre Drawings Before Shooting

The neuroscience graduate student suspected of a mass shooting in a Colorado movie theater last week mailed a notebook with drawings of a massacre to a University of Colorado psychiatrist, but it wasn't opened until after the attack, according to a law-enforcement official.

James Holmes, a 24-year-old Ph.D. student at the university, is suspected of a shooting rampage that killed 12 and wounded 58 people at a midnight showing of the newly released Batman movie in Aurora, Colo.

Mr. Holmes appeared in Colorado court Monday, with his hair dyed red-orange and wearing a dazed expression. He is expected to be formally charged at a hearing on July 30, and prosecutors are weighing whether to pursue the death penalty.

After Friday's attack, authorities discovered an unopened package in the mailroom at the University of Colorado that was mailed from Mr. Holmes to a psychiatrist, according to the law-enforcement official. The drawings in the notebook apparently represented Mr. Holmes's plans, the official said.

[...]

188 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:31:27pm

re: #183 Kragar

Boehner acts like he takes his orders from Obama, not the people who put him in the speaker’s chair.

From their lips to God's ears....

189 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:31:33pm

re: #180 Mattand

Just did a quick Mission Control tour via YouTube. I think where your MC/Win8 analogy falls apart is that Mission Control is optional. The Windows 8 icon landing screen isn't.

Based on your knowledge, I'm guessing you're fairly computer tech savvy. Here's one thing I learned a long time ago about computers: most people aren't that savvy. The average "civilian" regards them with apathy at best, and mortal terror at worst.

What you or I consider easy or second nature, the average user views as alchemy. One should keep that in mind when talking about how people will accept Windows 8.

Am I wrong? Possibly. It tends to happen a lot; I thought the first iMac's lack of floppy disk was going to doom it. And MS innovating forces Apple to up its game.

However, IMO, the whole Windows 8 all-in-one interface for both tablets and computers is not the best approach. It's a radical UI sea change that fails to take into account the mindset of the average computer user.

The average user hates a non-intuitive change. Those same people will be going from WinXP or Win7 and iOS or Android to Win8. They are going to hate it.

190 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:32:22pm

Why are chimps so dumb?

191 Batman  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:34:56pm

re: #180 Mattand

What I'm saying is that for all those un-tech-savvy people, Windows 8's UI will actually be better. All of your most-used apps are in pretty little boxes that you just click and the entire screen is filled with just that app, like a smartphone. Now instead of navigating the file browser or start menu, they just click what they want on the landing screen and go.

You're seeing all those un-savvy people as being used to, understanding and accepting of Windows, and thus would hate the radical newness of 8. If they were so used to it, they wouldn't be apathetic to or abhor computers.

It seems the people who are most pissed off about 8 are people who are more tech-savvy. They see it as dumbing down. I mean it looks like a smartphone and those things can't do what desktops can do!

192 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:35:03pm

re: #190 Charles Johnson

Why are chimps so dumb?

[Embedded content]

We are aren't we.

193 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:38:11pm

re: #189 b_sharp

re: #191 Batman

Cage match!

We can settle this. Just give me a new 'puter with Win8 in October. I'll let you know who's right.

194 JamesWI  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:38:31pm

Ron Paul's crazy "Audit the Fed" bill passes in the House

Yep, those House Republicans sure are focused on helping the economy and creating jobs!

195 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:38:53pm

re: #193 wrenchwench

re: #191 Batman

Cage match!

We can settle this. Just give me a new 'puter with Win8 in October. I'll let you know who's right.

I have a copy of the preview if you want to load it now.

196 Kragar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:42:05pm

re: #192 b_sharp

We are aren't we.

Study reveals: Babies are stupid

LOS ANGELES--A surprising new study released Monday by UCLA's Institute For Child Development revealed that human babies, long thought by psychologists to be highly inquisitive and adaptable, are actually extraordinarily stupid.

The study, an 18-month battery of intelligence tests administered to over 3,500 babies, concluded categorically that babies are "so stupid, it's not even funny."

According to Institute president Molly Bentley, in an effort to determine infant survival instincts when attacked, the babies were prodded in an aggressive manner with a broken broom handle. Over 90 percent of them, when poked, failed to make even rudimentary attempts to defend themselves. The remaining 10 percent responded by vacating their bowels.

"It is unlikely that the presence of the babies' fecal matter, however foul-smelling, would have a measurable defensive effect against an attacker in a real-world situation," Bentley said.

Another test, in which the infants were placed on a mound of dirt outdoors during a torrential downpour, produced similarly bleak results.

197 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:42:12pm

re: #163 MichaelJ

I'm using version 2.5.3 of Little Snitch in Mountain Lion.

Oh, you're right - I didn't need to install version 3. That's cool, new version has some nice stuff.

198 darthstar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:42:22pm

Romney's keynote speaker hinting at 2016 run for President...uh, Mitt...if your keynote speaker is looking at running in 4 years, chances are he doesn't think you have much of a shot in 2012.

199 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:44:01pm

re: #195 b_sharp

I have a copy of the preview if you want to load it now.

Won't it make my Dell Dimension 3000 esplode or something?

200 darthstar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:44:55pm
201 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:46:21pm

re: #199 wrenchwench

Won't it make my Dell Dimension 3000 esplode or something?

Wear safety glasses.

202 darthstar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:46:30pm

Supportive spouse? Try asshole husband.

203 darthstar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:47:09pm

re: #199 wrenchwench

Won't it make my Dell Dimension 3000 esplode or something?

I put it on my TRS-80 and it worked fine.

204 Kragar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:49:13pm

re: #202 darthstar

Supportive spouse? Try asshole husband.

[Embedded content]

"You call that a sport, huh? Thats not the term I would use."

205 JamesWI  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:49:26pm

re: #202 darthstar

Supportive spouse? Try asshole husband.

[Embedded content]

Ah, feel the love. I haven't seen such a loving married couple since Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes.

206 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:51:19pm

re: #195 b_sharp

I have a copy of the preview if you want to load it now.

Downloading it now. 3.27 GB. In about 6 hours I get to decide if I want to upgrade or not. Wonder if the first release will just patch the preview with any fixes or if I am going to have to DL it again.

207 darthstar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:51:56pm

The Prime Minister, who hosts the Republican presidential challenger at Downing Street on Thursday morning, attracted sharp criticism after declining to meet any Republican leaders during his visit to Washington in March.

He instead joined the Democratic president on a visit to Ohio - a key swing state in November's election - before enjoying a lavish state dinner. “It was unprecedented,” said one member of Mr Romney’s foreign policy advisory team. “It wasn’t just one more visit with the same treatment. It was very different. So why now?”

208 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:52:40pm

re: #205 JamesWI

Ah, feel the love. I haven't seen such a loving married couple since Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes.

209 darthstar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:52:58pm

re: #205 JamesWI

Ah, feel the love. I haven't seen such a loving married couple since Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes.

He doesn't want to look too 'elite' by supporting his wife. Mitt's a prick.

210 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:54:12pm

re: #206 Bubblehead II

Downloading it now. 3.27 GB. In about 6 hours I get to decide if I want to upgrade or not. Wonder if the first release will just patch the preview with any fixes or if I am going to have to DL it again.

Download VirtualBox and put it in a VM.

211 jaunte  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:55:08pm

Kludgy Neologism & Fundraising Email Dept.

This just in from my email:

Fellow Conservative,

We recently learned radical leftist billionaire George Soros has agreed to bankroll a new SuperPAC aimed at defeating our campaign this November.

Soros has pledged up to $5 Million for the effort to distort my record and defeat the conservative principles you and I believe in. This is in addition to two other left-wing SuperPACs, massive ad buys by the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, out-of-state, occupy-style protesters descending on the district, paid canvassers bank-rolled by union bosses, and a liberal media intent on defending the 'progress' they've made the past three years.

We will fight back and we need you to join the fight today. Donate what you can here: [website address]

If we're going to repeal Obamacare, stop Barack Obama's $494 Billion Taxmageddon, prevent amnesty for illegal immigrants, balance the federal budget, and protect the American Dream as you and I know it -- we absolutely need to retain our Majority in the US House.

I'm the liberals' number one target and defeating me is a key part of their plan to return the Speaker's gavel to Nancy Pelosi. We absolutely can't allow them to win.

I pledge to you that I will never back down and I will continue to present a stark contrast based on proven conservative principles and solutions to the problems facing our nation.

I hope you'll stand strong with me by making a contribution here:

[again the website]
Thank you!

Steadfast and Loyal,
[lifelike signature]
LTC(R) Allen B. West
Member of Congress
Newsmax and Moneynews

P.S. Liberal Billionaire George Soros is pledging $5 Million to attempt to defeat me and create a House Majority for liberals. Help me fight back today by donating here.

SOROS TAXMAGEDDON!

212 Achilles Tang  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 4:06:06pm

re: #211 jaunte

I'm surprised there was no mention of guns in there, or maybe that is what is meant by the American Dream?

213 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 4:07:11pm

re: #210 b_sharp

Download VirtualBox and put it in a VM.

Well, if I was going to do the upgrade on my current system, I would probably do that. But I have a fallback machine I can install it on and play around with.

That way nothing is lost if I don't like it.

214 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 4:14:51pm

re: #211 jaunte

Kludgy Neologism & Fundraising Email Dept.

This just in from my email:

SOROS TAXMAGEDDON!

It's George Soro's kid, not George and they are trying to raise, not donate $5 mil.

215 Kragar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 4:16:01pm

Huckabee: LGBT Reaction To Chick-fil-A Is ‘Economic Bullying’

And when the AFA or FRC announce a boycott against Home Depot, JC Penny, or other businesses, what is it then?

216 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 4:16:55pm

re: #215 Kragar

Huckabee: LGBT Reaction To Chick-fil-A Is ‘Economic Bullying’

And when the AFA or FRC announce a boycott against Home Depot, JC Penny, or other businesses, what is it then?

Huffing and puffing.

217 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 4:19:49pm

re: #206 Bubblehead II

Downloading it now. 3.27 GB. In about 6 hours I get to decide if I want to upgrade or not. Wonder if the first release will just patch the preview with any fixes or if I am going to have to DL it again.

6 hours? O_o

218 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 4:22:09pm

re: #215 Kragar

Huckabee: LGBT Reaction To Chick-fil-A Is ‘Economic Bullying’

And when the AFA or FRC announce a boycott against Home Depot, JC Penny, or other businesses, what is it then?

Rightness Indignation in support of True of True American Values?

219 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 4:24:30pm

re: #217 b_sharp

6 hours? O_o

Well that is what the count down timer says. Add to that, that I am also dling the 32 bit version as well as I forgot my fallback machine has an older processor.

220 Mich-again  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 4:25:32pm

re: #186 andres

What can I say?

I'd use that as a litmus test for who to delete.

221 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 4:28:12pm

Well....Anglo-Saxon is trending on Twitter. Good going Romney team!

222 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 4:30:01pm

re: #219 Bubblehead II

Well that is what the count down timer says. Add to that, that I am also dling the 32 bit version as well as I forgot my fallback machine has an older processor.

Takes about an hour for me to dl 6GB now. I can remember when downloading a CD sized iso would take all night. I am so glad those days are gone.

223 palomino  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 4:30:28pm

re: #198 darthstar

Romney's keynote speaker hinting at 2016 run for President...uh, Mitt...if your keynote speaker is looking at running in 4 years, chances are he doesn't think you have much of a shot in 2012.

[Embedded content]

Unfortunately Romney does have a shot, a pretty good one at that. Sure, he's a weak and uninspiring candidate. But he's bland enough not to scare most people off, and is looking to win by default. Which is quite possible in this economic climate--incumbents don't usually get reelected with ~47% approval ratings and 8%+ unemployment.

Under better economic conditions, Romney would have little chance. The only strong rationale Romney can articulate for replacing Obama is jobs, because the public is pretty satisfied with Obama on most other issues. Incumbents typically win when there are no major issues dragging them down. But the economy is sluggish enough that many voters may turn to Romney in frustration, thinking he can fix something that's really unfixable.

Many liberals look at Romney as a joke, and he is in many respects (not the least of which is that he's held practically every position on every major issue at some point over the last decade). But Dems who think Romney can't win just because he's a douchebag are in denial, and should be worried.

224 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 4:34:21pm

re: #222 b_sharp

Takes about an hour for me to dl 6GB now. I can remember when downloading a CD sized iso would take all night. I am so glad those days are gone.

What can I say. Qwest/Century link sucks.

Beer run, bbiaf

225 Kragar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 4:37:10pm

Romney On Taxes: Don’t Want To Give Dems ‘More Material Than Is Required’

Mitt Romney has no intention of releasing more than two years of tax returns because he doesn’t want to give Democrats more fodder for attacking him, he told NBC’s Brian Williams Wednesday. Romney repeated a point he has made several times, arguing that Democrats will twist the returns into something that can be used against him.

“And what we’ve noted is our Democrat friends, take what’s there, twist it, distort it – dishonestly use it in – in attack ads. I just don’t wanna give ‘em more material than is required,” Romney said.

226 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 4:37:23pm

re: #221 Stanley Sea

Well...Anglo-Saxon is trending on Twitter. Good going Romney team!

hwæt??

227 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 4:41:01pm

re: #225 Kragar

Romney On Taxes: Don’t Want To Give Dems ‘More Material Than Is Required’

Well Willard, the only way they could really do that is if you've got something in there to be ashamed of. Do you?

228 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 4:44:52pm

re: #13 EdDantes

I'll never get over Mach Grande

Y'all stop taking my lines!

///

229 EdDantes  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 4:46:57pm

re: #228 TedStriker

Y'all stop taking my lines!

///

Take care of your drinking problem!

230 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 4:47:15pm

re: #227 Targetpractice

Well Willard, the only way they could really do that is if you've got something in there to be ashamed of. Do you?

Exactly. If you have nothing to hide why are you worried? Wasn't that the repubs catch phrase for the Patriot Act fun and games?

231 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 4:50:26pm

re: #230 RayFerd

Exactly. If you have nothing to hide why are you worried? Wasn't that the repubs catch phrase for the Patriot Act fun and games?

That's been their question since the White House invoked EP for the DOJ files that Issa's hot and heavy for, "If they have nothing to hide, then surely releasing those documents will prove that."

Well Willard, here's your chance, show us that you've been a good and decent guy for years. That you're one of those American success stories, making millions through honest work and wise investing.

232 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 4:53:50pm

re: #209 darthstar

He doesn't want to look too 'elite' by supporting his wife. Mitt's a prick.

Since neither Mitt nor his wife (or even the rider, actually) are the Olympic athlete it really is more fitting that the horse's significant other attend the event.

233 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 4:56:19pm

Well, here's how the debates are gonna shake out in October:

Dates, Locations, Formats Set For Presidential Debates

Debate 1: October, 2 in Denver, CO. Will focus on domestic issues, with a moderator asking questions.

VP Debate: October 11, in Danville, KY. Will be wide-ranging, with a moderator asking questions

Debate 2: October 16, in Hempstead, NY. A town-hall format, with undecided voters (as screened by Gallup) asking the questions.

Debate 3: October 22, in Boca Raton, FL. Will focus on foreign policy, with a moderator asking questions.

234 darthstar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 4:58:18pm

re: #232 Decatur Deb

Since neither Mitt nor his wife (or even the rider, actually) are the Olympic athlete it really is more fitting that the horse's significant other attend the event.

I don't think Rick Santorum is in London.

235 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:06:37pm

re: #234 darthstar

I don't think Rick Santorum is in London.

Nah, he's just a horse's ass...just like Mitt.

236 Kragar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:13:24pm

‘Quite Far To The Right’: Meet Mitt Romney’s Foreign Policy Team

Mitt Romney turned attention to his foreign policy this week, with a largely substance-free and fact-challenged speech on Tuesday and a European tour that will eventually take him to Israel. While Romney gone to great lengths to avoid talking national security, it’s no secret that neither Romney nor his advisers appear capable of outlining a clear vision of a Romney administration’s foreign policy. What little specifics we do hear sound suspiciously like the Obama administration’s positions. So for those wondering what a Romney presidency might mean for U.S. troops and diplomats, there’s not much to go on.

But what’s troublesome about Romney on foreign policy is what’s cooking behind the scenes. Gen. Colin Powell recently complained that Romney’s foreign policy team is “quite far to the right.” Indeed, veterans of the Bush/Cheney administration “pepper” Romney’s foreign policy team and the so-called “Cheney-ites” are reportedly winning the presumptive GOP presidential nominee’s ear. Here’s an in depth look at some of the key advisers a President Romney will hear from on foreign policy and what we might come to expect in a Romney administration:

237 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:17:54pm

re: #215 Kragar

Huckabee: LGBT Reaction To Chick-fil-A Is ‘Economic Bullying’

And when the AFA or FRC announce a boycott against Home Depot, JC Penny, or other businesses, what is it then?

Economic bullying? Come on Huckabee. I know you're a pathetic anti gay bigot but come the fuck on. Really the attempts by anti gay bigots who want to treat gays and lesbians as if they are evil and not deserving of equality trying to make themselves out to be the real victims is pathetic. It's just like the white supremacists who claimed they were the victims when integration was happening.

238 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:19:13pm

re: #225 Kragar

Romney On Taxes: Don’t Want To Give Dems ‘More Material Than Is Required’

In other words waah I'm Mitt Romney. Seriously, he's coming across as such a whiny douche about this. I'm starting to think he has something really shameful in there that he doesn't want the American people knowing.

239 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:22:03pm

re: #215 Kragar

Huckabee: LGBT Reaction To Chick-fil-A Is ‘Economic Bullying’

And when the AFA or FRC announce a boycott against Home Depot, JC Penny, or other businesses, what is it then?

"Uhhhhh...no comment."

240 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:24:23pm
The Romney campaign did not respond to questions about whether it would seek a retraction of the story. The Telegraph, which stands by the piece, told TPM that the paper has not received a request from the Romney campaign to retract or correct the story.

No demand for a retraction means they know it was said and who said it.

"I don't agree with whoever that adviser is," Romney said in an interview with NBC News that aired this evening. "But I can tell you that we have a very special relationship between the United States and Great Britain. ... I also believe the president understands that."

Romney can pretend all he wants, he knows who said it. Again, I'm guessing Chertoff.

241 blueraven  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:25:55pm

Bill O'Reilly is now pouncing on Warner Brothers for reportedly donating a million to Aurora victims. Not enough I guess.
Wonder how much he donated?

242 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:26:09pm

re: #238 HappyWarrior

In other words waah I'm Mitt Romney. Seriously, he's coming across as such a whiny douche about this. I'm starting to think he has something really shameful in there that he doesn't want the American people knowing.

I maintain the belief that the big black mark on his taxes have to be in the '07-'09 time period, probably something along the lines of managing to use losses to zero out his taxes or having some investments that would be hard to explain away.

243 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:26:42pm

re: #238 HappyWarrior

In other words waah I'm Mitt Romney. Seriously, he's coming across as such a whiny douche about this. I'm starting to think he has something really shameful in there that he doesn't want the American people knowing.

Mitt knows that, once the people start picking apart his tax returns and the experts analyze them, his ass is grass.

244 Achilles Tang  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:28:37pm

re: #243 TedStriker

Mitt knows that, once the people start picking apart his tax returns and the experts analyze them, his ass is grass.

I'm surprised his ass isn't already grass just for having manipulated the loopholes to give himself a $100,000,000 IRA (That's 17,000 years at $6000 per year).

245 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:29:22pm

re: #236 Kragar

‘Quite Far To The Right’: Meet Mitt Romney’s Foreign Policy Team

So basically his foreign policy team is the worst of the Bush team but with no stabling influences such as General Powell. Lovely. Really Romney and his advisers suck. His judicial adviser is Robert Bork which should tell you all you need to know about how he views legal issues. His immigration adviser is Kris Kobach. And his foreign policy top guy is John Bolton who echoes Frank Gaffney's paranoid clap trap about American Muslims.

246 Obdicut  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:30:40pm

re: #240 goddamnedfrank

That sounds like he's admitting that it was said.

247 blueraven  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:31:42pm

re: #240 goddamnedfrank

No demand for a retraction means they know it was said and who said it.

Romney can pretend all he wants, he knows who said it. Again, I'm guessing Chertoff.

He didn't deny that one of his advisers did make the comment either.

248 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:33:32pm

I thought it was telling too that they're not demanding a retraction yet they're shrieking at Biden for commenting on it. Here's a news flash for Romney and his team, if you don't want to called out as being xenophobic bigots, don't have advisers that say that the President who so happens to be our first president of African decent does not understand "our shared Anglo-Saxon heritage." If said adviser had said that Obama doesn't understand the relationship between the UK and US that would be one thing even though that would be bs too considering that Obama and Cameron get along fine. Seems to me that Romney's surrogate is tugging on the old Obama hates white people bone and resents the British for their past colonialism. Irony is of course that the bulk of the British people even some of the more conservative ones would take Obama over Romney in a heart beat.

249 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:33:36pm

re: #240 goddamnedfrank

No demand for a retraction means they know it was said and who said it.

Romney can pretend all he wants, he knows who said it. Again, I'm guessing Chertoff.

What a way to run a railroad.

250 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:39:19pm

[Link: firstread.msnbc.msn.com...]
Looks like Mitt's taken to lying about Aurora now too. Claiming that the guns Holmes bought and used were done so illegally.

251 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:40:56pm

re: #250 HappyWarrior

[Link: firstread.msnbc.msn.com...]
Looks like Mitt's taken to lying about Aurora now too. Claiming that the guns Holmes bought and used were done so illegally.

WTF.

252 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:42:32pm

re: #241 blueraven

What a shitbag. The whole lead cast is coming across for the victims. Christian Bale went to visit with the request of no press or so I'm told.

Class Act.

253 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:42:57pm

re: #251 Varek Raith

WTF.

I've gotten to the point where I am shocked by nothing this guy says because he's a professional bullshit artist.

254 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:47:51pm

re: #242 Targetpractice

I maintain the belief that the big black mark on his taxes have to be in the '07-'09 time period, probably something along the lines of managing to use losses to zero out his taxes or having some investments that would be hard to explain away.

While everything went to shit in America, Mitt won. I betcha.

255 jaunte  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:51:15pm

Romney Camp Once Again Warns Of ‘Soviet’ Threat

Romney Campaign Warns Of Soviet Threat To Czechoslovakia

256 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:52:33pm

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Well regulated! I'm starting to like SFZ's idea. All gun owners must belong to a militia. Not just any old militia but a "well regulated" militia. One must therefore adhere to the the regulations of said militia in order to maintain gun ownership.

257 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:55:52pm

re: #254 Stanley Sea

While everything went to shit in America, Mitt won. I betcha.

$10,000?

258 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:57:23pm

Remember folks! Obama will be signing the UN gun ban in 2 days. That's it man... game over...

Dick Morris said so!

259 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:58:24pm

re: #256 Gus

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Well regulated! I'm starting to like SFZ's idea. All gun owners must belong to a militia. Not just any old militia but a "well regulated" militia. One must therefore adhere to the the regulation of said militia in order to maintain gun ownership.

260 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:58:53pm
261 Kragar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 5:59:20pm

re: #258 Gus

Remember folks! Obama will be signing the UN gun ban in 2 days. That's it man... game over...

Dick Morris said so!

WULBEREENS!

262 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:00:22pm

re: #256 Gus

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Well regulated! I'm starting to like SFZ's idea. All gun owners must belong to a militia. Not just any old militia but a "well regulated" militia. One must therefore adhere to the the regulations of said militia in order to maintain gun ownership.

What always gets me when the 2nd Amendment is read is that few read it in historical context, forged in the aftermath of the Revolutionary War. The Founding Fathers didn't mean the "militia" to mean the Army or the National Guard because they disagreed with the idea of standing armies. Thus the idea of a well-regulated militia was a compromise, the idea being that men keeping their own arms could be called to war when the time came. But at the same time, there was not a lot of love for militia, as their track record during the Revolution had shown that they were cannon fodder at worst, home guard at best. The Continental Army had borne the brunt of the war effort and it was the standing army called up in the War of 1812 that put to rest the idea that a militia, even a well-regulated one, could provide an adequate national defense.

263 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:03:45pm

re: #256 Gus

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Well regulated! I'm starting to like SFZ's idea. All gun owners must belong to a militia. Not just any old militia but a "well regulated" militia. One must therefore adhere to the the regulations of said militia in order to maintain gun ownership.

You already are a part of the militia. According to 10 USC § 311

The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

264 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:05:27pm

re: #262 Targetpractice

What always gets me when the 2nd Amendment is read is that few read it in historical context, forged in the aftermath of the Revolutionary War. The Founding Fathers didn't mean the "militia" to mean the Army or the National Guard because they disagreed with the idea of standing armies. Thus the idea of a well-regulated militia was a compromise, the idea being that men keeping their own arms could be called to war when the time came. But at the same time, there was not a lot of love for militia, as their track record during the Revolution had shown that they were cannon fodder at worst, home guard at best. The Continental Army had borne the brunt of the war effort and it was the standing army called up in the War of 1812 that put to rest the idea that a militia, even a well-regulated one, could provide an adequate national defense.

Pretty much. The context has been lost in the debate. That context being the need for a "well regulated militia" at the time. That's why the 2nd Amendment was written.

265 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:05:44pm

re: #263 William Barnett-Lewis

You already are a part of the militia. According to 10 USC § 311

Too late! ;)

266 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:06:04pm

re: #256 Gus

Okay forget the 2nd. I for one will assert the right to own tools up to the job of stopping an armed predator in my home, on my property or at work.

In the instance of violence in my neighborhood like the king riots, I will group with others and become that militia. Hopefully just as briefly as the men in Korea town.

267 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:06:40pm

re: #266 Daniel Ballard

Okay forget the 2nd. I for one will assert the right to own tools up to the job of stopping an armed predator in my home, on my property or at work.

That works.

268 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:06:46pm

re: #263 William Barnett-Lewis

You already are a part of the militia. According to 10 USC § 311

what's a 10 USC § 311?

and how do you pronounce §?

269 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:07:42pm

re: #268 engineer cat

what's a 10 USC § 311?

and how do you pronounce §?

Looks like a tiny hurricane. //

270 dragonath  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:07:46pm

re: #255 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Romney Camp Once Again Warns Of ‘Soviet’ Threat

Romney Campaign Warns Of Soviet Threat To Czechoslovakia

So his foreign policy team is living in Weimar Germany?

That's nice.

271 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:07:49pm

re: #267 Gus

Sorry, late edit... But thanks

272 miclaine  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:08:30pm

re: #268 engineer cat

I think it means section

273 Kragar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:10:44pm

re: #270 Fred Galt

So his foreign policy team is living in Weimar Germany?

That's nice.

If elected, Romney advisers recommend that we annex the Sudetanland...

274 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:11:50pm

re: #268 engineer cat

what's a 10 USC § 311?

and how do you pronounce §?

Chapter 10 United States Code Section 311.

275 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:12:28pm

re: #273 Kragar

If elected, Romney advisers recommend that we annex the Sudetanland...

But of course, we need breathing room.

//

276 Big Joe  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:13:22pm

Mitt Romney Olympic Archive Still Off-Limits

"We don't have that stuff," said Elizabeth Rogers, the manuscript curator at the University's Marriott Library. The decisions about what records to donate to the library were made by Olympics officials before they were shipped in 1,100 boxes to the university, she said. "That was done before we got it. I just know it wasn't a decision we made. Everything we have will be available."

"Mitt Romney resigned from SLOC [the Salt Lake Organizing Committee] in early 2002 to run for governor of Massachusetts and was not involved in the decision-making regarding the final disposition of records," said Andrea Saul, a Romney spokesperson, in response to questions.

He doesn't have records of doing anything he was supposedly ever involved with, has not espoused any policies for the future, but he says he's the right man to run the country. He's been on all sides of every issue. The man is an enigma.

277 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:13:48pm

re: #55 Fred Galt

That wasn't cool.

No, it wasn't.

278 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:15:04pm

re: #271 Daniel Ballard

Sorry, late edit... But thanks

I don't support gun bans -- which is basically unicorn thinking WRT to the USA anyway. I also support people being able to get CCWs; castle doctrines; self defense; etc.

279 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:16:28pm

And to state the obvious... James Holmes is a nut.

280 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:18:32pm

re: #258 Gus

Remember folks! Obama will be signing the UN gun ban in 2 days. That's it man... game over...

Dick Morris said so!

Nothing will happen, is my prediction. There will be sound and fury, but it will signify nothing. No UN treaty regulating firearms will clear the US Senate, now or in the foreseeable future.

281 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:18:43pm

re: #279 Gus

And to state the obvious... James Holmes is a nut.

That's putting it mildly.

282 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:19:38pm

re: #278 Gus

And I don't mind registering my firearms. I am kinda pissed I get denied CCW but LA does that to everyone.

283 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:21:06pm

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

I'm not at all worried about the UN. California or LA however could step over the line like DC did. Hopefully not.

284 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:22:59pm

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

Nothing will happen, is my prediction. There will be sound and fury, but it will signify nothing. No UN treaty regulating firearms will clear the US Senate, now or in the foreseeable future.

I don't think anyone will be signing anything on the 27th. Except for perhaps a general agreement on how to proceed with the small arms treaty by the deputies present.

285 jaunte  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:23:12pm

re: #273 Kragar

They are fully prepared to repulse Guillaume and his Norman invasion.

286 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:25:01pm
287 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:25:37pm

re: #279 Gus

And to state the obvious... James Holmes is a nut.

Schizophrenic seems likely. He's the right age for one thing.

288 sagehen  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:25:45pm

re: #276 Big Joe

Mitt Romney Olympic Archive Still Off-Limits

He doesn't have records of doing anything he was supposedly ever involved with, has not espoused any policies for the future, but he says he's the right man to run the country. He's been on all sides of every issue. The man is an enigma.

It's Shroedinger's Candidate!!

289 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:25:58pm

re: #286 Gus

[Embedded content]

Oh dog.

290 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:26:09pm
291 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:27:09pm

Two separate incidents. Houston... we've got a problem.

292 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:27:17pm

re: #51 EdDantes

Apple's next cat.

[Link: fffound.com...]

Stares angrily.

293 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:27:21pm

I have a logical counter to test out. One might agree that defensive use of guns is rare as compared to legal gun ownership. But a reasonable counter might be that there are few murderers among ordinary "shoot at the range" gun owners.

An awful lot of the killers out there are convicted felons, forbidden to own or possess guns. So gun control that primarily impacts ordinary gun owners might not be as helpful as one might think.

294 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:28:02pm

re: #292 Varek Raith

Stares angrily.

I don't even want to look.

295 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:28:21pm

re: #294 Gus

I don't even want to look.

Don't.

296 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:28:35pm

re: #293 Daniel Ballard

I have a logical counter to test out. One might agree that defensive use of guns is rare as compared to legal gun ownership. But a reasonable counter might be that there are few murderers among ordinary "shoot at the range" gun owners.

An awful lot of the killers out there are convicted felons, forbidden to own or possess guns. So gun control that primarily impacts ordinary gun owners might not be as helpful as one might think.

My theory? Partial. It's not the guns it's the gun owners.

297 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:29:24pm
298 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:31:17pm

re: #293 Daniel Ballard

I have a logical counter to test out. One might agree that defensive use of guns is rare as compared to legal gun ownership. But a reasonable counter might be that there are few murderers among ordinary "shoot at the range" gun owners.

An awful lot of the killers out there are convicted felons, forbidden to own or possess guns. So gun control that primarily impacts ordinary gun owners might not be as helpful as one might think.

Ya, I see your point. But what can be done? This shit is out of control to civilized folks. We appreciate your willingness to own guns. But fuck, they are killing our people for no reason.

Oh boy.

299 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:31:23pm

re: #293 Daniel Ballard

I have a logical counter to test out. One might agree that defensive use of guns is rare as compared to legal gun ownership. But a reasonable counter might be that there are few murderers among ordinary "shoot at the range" gun owners.

An awful lot of the killers out there are convicted felons, forbidden to own or possess guns. So gun control that primarily impacts ordinary gun owners might not be as helpful as one might think.

There aren't any clear links between gun ownership rates and, say, murder rates. For example, Norwegians own guns at about the same rate as Americans, yet have one sixth the murder rate (roughly)

300 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:32:42pm
301 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:32:53pm

re: #293 Daniel Ballard

I have a logical counter to test out. One might agree that defensive use of guns is rare as compared to legal gun ownership. But a reasonable counter might be that there are few murderers among ordinary "shoot at the range" gun owners.

An awful lot of the killers out there are convicted felons, forbidden to own or possess guns. So gun control that primarily impacts ordinary gun owners might not be as helpful as one might think.

For at least the next generation, no one is legislating away any gun rights. As an electorate we have decided that we are comfortable with the current rate of gun and DWI funerals. Besides, the odds are that it will be someone else's kid.

302 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:33:18pm

re: #300 Stanley Sea

[Embedded content]

It's meaningless though.
Tax bills must originate in the House.

303 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:34:07pm

re: #301 Decatur Deb

Besides, the odds are that it will be someone else's kid.

Truth.

304 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:34:30pm

re: #299 uncah91

There aren't any clear links between gun ownership rates and, say, murder rates. For example, Norwegians own guns at about the same rate as Americans, yet have one sixth the murder rate (roughly)

It's the poverty. Norway puts an emphasis on things like human dignity, education and universal access to healthcare, we don't.

305 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:34:48pm

re: #290 Gus

[Embedded content]

Be it noted that the gun in that case was illegal, and the shooting a result of gang activity. New York City needs no new gun laws to deal with that: The NYPD, aided by COMPSTAT, is handling that part of the cities gang flare-up. Especially since the area's assemblyman dropped his opposition to stop-and-frisk in the wake of this shooting.

306 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:35:11pm

re: #299 uncah91

There aren't any clear links between gun ownership rates and, say, murder rates. For example, Norwegians own guns at about the same rate as Americans, yet have one sixth the murder rate (roughly)

It's a reflection of culture... society. Yes, people will bring up Anders Breivik when you mention Norway.

307 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:36:05pm

re: #302 Varek Raith

It's meaningless though.
Tax bills must originate in the House.

We're fucked. Although I do think this BS went on before. They carry the term "lawmaker" and waste away, collecting their pay and huge benefits, but the laws under their belt? Thin resume now a days.

308 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:36:09pm

re: #302 Varek Raith

It's meaningless though.
Tax bills must originate in the House.

Except it's not, because the House GOP is going to default to an extension of all the cuts, but the Senate has already killed that dead and instead pushed forward a bill that only extends the middle-class cuts. So now the House GOP has two choices: Pass an extension bill and then deal with the amended bill that bounces back or just refuse to take up the issue until after the election.

309 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:37:07pm

re: #301 Decatur Deb

For at least the next generation, no one is legislating away any gun rights. As an electorate we have decided that we are comfortable with the current rate of gun and DWI funerals. Besides, the odds are that it will be someone else's kid.

Why bring up DWI? The laws on that are quite strict here in Illinois, I can tell you. Do you have some sort of proposal on the matter of drunk drivers?

310 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:37:16pm

re: #304 goddamnedfrank

It's the poverty. Norway puts an emphasis on things like human dignity, education and universal access to healthcare, we don't.

That's why it's important for us to look at the larger picture in the gun debate.

311 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:37:31pm

re: #298 Stanley Sea

Ya, I see your point. But what can be done? This shit is out of control to civilized folks. We appreciate your willingness to own guns. But fuck, they are killing our people for no reason.

Oh boy.

I think it's certainly reasonable to have conversations about sensible gun regulation, but to often the anti gun crowd arguments come from of fear of what is not understood.

Aurora is a good example of this. Lots of concentration on the AR 15, but I'm guessing the shot gun killed the most people.

I doubt anyone is going to propose banning shotguns.

312 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:37:54pm

re: #308 Targetpractice

Except it's not, because the House GOP is going to default to an extension of all the cuts, but the Senate has already killed that dead and instead pushed forward a bill that only extends the middle-class cuts. So now the House GOP has two choices: Pass an extension bill and then deal with the amended bill that bounces back or just refuse to take up the issue until after the election.

They'll do the latter.

313 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:38:07pm

re: #299 uncah91

There aren't any clear links between gun ownership rates and, say, murder rates. For example, Norwegians own guns at about the same rate as Americans, yet have one sixth the murder rate (roughly)

u.s. gun ownership per capita 88.8
norway gun ownership per capita 31.3

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

314 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:38:27pm

re: #296 Gus

Let's use an easy example. Gang members or cartel soldiers are one group of gun owners. Then we have your ordinary person that has guns like some of us lizards. Start with who is a trustworthy group. Legislate accordingly. Accept that some will slip through the cracks and use guns or bombs or anthrax to try to kill for some twisted mental disturbance reason. That's why we got cops, and people strong enough to step up rightly with or without a gun in hand.

315 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:38:47pm

re: #312 Dark_Falcon

They'll do the latter.

Undoubtedly, which means they go into the fall explaining why gambling with everybody's taxes after the election is preferable to addressing them now.

316 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:39:07pm

In the USA we're plopping down infants in front of the TV set where they eventually begin to watch crime dramas at a very early part of brain development.

317 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:40:56pm

re: #311 uncah91

I think it's certainly reasonable to have conversations about sensible gun regulation, but to often the anti gun crowd arguments come from of fear of what is not understood.

Aurora is a good example of this. Lots of concentration on the AR 15, but I'm guessing the shot gun killed the most people.

I doubt anyone is going to propose banning shotguns.

No support for that. Heck, even in Chicago the Remington Model 870 is legal. And I've mentioned this in the past, but didn't want to say it in first days after the shooting: My father owns an 870, and he's no danger to anyone save someone trying to break into my parent's home. It's not the shotgun/weapon that is the problem, it is the mind behind it.

318 Big Joe  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:41:01pm

re: #297 Stanley Sea

[Embedded content]

Image: shuttledrawingbad.jpg

319 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:41:27pm

re: #309 Dark_Falcon

Why bring up DWI? The laws on that are quite strict here in Illinois, I can tell you. Do you have some sort of proposal on the matter of drunk drivers?

I fail to see the difference between DWI and attempted homicide. MADD took their approach about as far as it will go. For my money, we might try confiscating DWI vehicles and towing them to a range, where gun enthusiasts with quad 50's can play with them. Win-win.

320 Petero1818  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:42:14pm

re: #7 engineer cat

yeah, just came back from a company presentation on windows 8

a real solution in search of a problem iffen you ask me

i don't know why they just don't let the software alone for a while instead of constantly screwing around with it

For the same reason your new and improved toothpaste addresses 10 new oral issues you didn't realize were a problem 6 months ago. They need to sell something.

321 Big Joe  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:42:39pm
322 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:43:30pm

re: #299 uncah91

There aren't any clear links between gun ownership rates and, say, murder rates. For example, Norwegians own guns at about the same rate as Americans, yet have one sixth the murder rate (roughly)

Likewise there is almost no way to own legal firearms in Great Britain but their rates of violent crime are much higher.

323 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:44:23pm

re: #313 engineer cat

u.s. gun ownership per capita 88.8
norway gun ownership per capita 31.3

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I was referring to the percentage of households with guns, which I believe is in the 30s for both countries.

324 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:44:25pm

re: #305 Dark_Falcon

Be it noted that the gun in that case was illegal, and the shooting a result of gang activity.

So what. You're the guy who doesn't want ATF doing anything about straw purchases. How exactly do you think seventeen year olds get ahold of guns in the first place? Either the guns are stolen from people who almost certainly didn't secure them properly or they're acquired through straw sales.

325 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:45:08pm

re: #322 William Barnett-Lewis

Likewise there is almost no way to own legal firearms in Great Britain but their rates of violent crime are much higher.

To be fair though, their murder rate is much lower.

326 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:45:12pm

re: #313 engineer cat

u.s. gun ownership per capita 88.8
norway gun ownership per capita 31.3

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

firearm-related death-rate per 100,000 population in one year

u.s. 10.27
norway 4.39

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

327 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:47:40pm

re: #323 uncah91

I was referring to the percentage of households with guns, which I believe is in the 30s for both countries.

cite?

328 Achilles Tang  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:48:06pm

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

Nothing will happen, is my prediction. There will be sound and fury, but it will signify nothing. No UN treaty regulating firearms will clear the US Senate, now or in the foreseeable future.

But this treaty doesn't regulate US firearms and specifically says, more than once, that it doesn't affect sovereign states laws.

329 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:48:45pm

re: #319 Decatur Deb

I fail to see the difference between DWI and attempted homicide. MADD took their approach about as far as it will go. For my money, we might try confiscating DWI vehicles and towing them to a range, where gun enthusiasts with quad 50's can play with them. Win-win.

[Embedded content]

The M3 Halftrack with a Quad .50 is, confusingly, called an M16. The International Harvester-made M5 with a Quad .50 is called an M17. Less than 5 M17s exist today; over 1000 were made, but the great majority of them were shipped to the Soviet Union as part of Lend-Lease.

330 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:49:16pm

re: #304 goddamnedfrank

It's the poverty. Norway puts an emphasis on things like human dignity, education and universal access to healthcare, we don't.

I agree with this. But I'm not sure it's just poverty. Or maybe their are many things that come along with poverty that are corrosive.

331 Achilles Tang  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:49:20pm

re: #325 uncah91

To be fair though, their murder rate is much lower.

That's because it is harder to kill with a knife.

332 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:49:25pm

so, actually, if you want to take the u.s. vs norway as your examples, the figures i found show a very close correlation between per capita gun ownership and firearms related deaths

333 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:49:54pm

re: #328 Achilles Tang

But this treaty doesn't regulate US firearms and specifically says, more than once, that it doesn't affect sovereign states laws.

Won't matter, a UN treaty on firearms will never be popular in the USA. The UN is simply too distrusted and unpopular.

334 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:50:27pm

re: #326 engineer cat

firearm-related death-rate per 100,000 population in one year

u.s. 10.27
norway 4.39

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Death rate and murder rate are very different.

335 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:50:54pm

re: #334 uncah91

Death rate and murder rate are very different.

Not to the worms.

336 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:51:21pm

re: #333 Dark_Falcon

Won't matter, a UN treaty on firearms will never be popular in the USA. The UN is simply too distrusted and unpopular.

A lot of that distrust comes because of lies told by the right.

337 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:51:48pm

re: #318 Big Joe

Image: shuttledrawingbad.jpg

link didn't work? :(

338 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:51:57pm

re: #322 William Barnett-Lewis

Likewise there is almost no way to own legal firearms in Great Britain but their rates of violent crime are much higher.

firearm-related death-rate per 100,000 population in one year

U.S. 10.27
England and Wales 0.46

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

339 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:51:58pm

re: #332 engineer cat

so, actually, if you want to take the u.s. vs norway as your examples, the figures i found show a very close correlation between per capita gun ownership and firearms related deaths

Yeah but then you'll include accidental guns deaths, suicides, etc. No? South Africa, Honduras, and others have an extraordinary high gun death rates but also have nil reporting on guns used for suicides.

340 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:52:23pm

re: #321 Big Joe

fixt

LOL

341 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:52:52pm

re: #338 engineer cat

firearm-related death-rate per 100,000 population in one year

U.S. 10.27
England and Wales 0.46

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Which includes 5.71 for suicide in the USA.

342 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:53:13pm

re: #330 uncah91

I agree with this. But I'm not sure it's just poverty. Or maybe their are many things that come along with poverty that are corrosive.

With poverty, low education and poor access to healthcare comes a pervasive feeling of helplessness and a who gives a shit attitude regarding the value of human life. The fact that this attitude isn't controlled and directed at the people who advocate for and purposely perpetuate this system is the only thing keeping it in place.

343 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:53:28pm

re: #335 Decatur Deb

Not to the worms.

The Conqueror Worm

Out- out are the lights- out all!
And, over each quivering form,
The curtain, a funeral pall,
Comes down with the rush of a storm,
While the angels, all pallid and wan,
Uprising, unveiling, affirm
That the play is the tragedy, "Man,"
And its hero the Conqueror Worm.

344 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:53:34pm

South Africa is at 74.57 but reports NA for suicides.

345 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:53:39pm

re: #327 engineer cat

cite?

[Link: www.guncite.com...]

But I now notice that is a stat from 1993.

346 Achilles Tang  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:53:52pm

re: #332 engineer cat

so, actually, if you want to take the u.s. vs norway as your examples, the figures i found show a very close correlation between per capita gun ownership and firearms related deaths

It is not a good comparison for this purpose on many levels. Norway is much more outdoor/hunting oriented overall, with smaller more homogeneous population, higher living standards, higher average education level, and so on.

347 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:54:07pm

re: #332 engineer cat

so, actually, if you want to take the u.s. vs norway as your examples, the figures i found show a very close correlation between per capita gun ownership and firearms related deaths

But you also would need to control, if you could, for the very difference cultures and demography of the two nations.

At this point I need to ask: Do those posting on LGF think it racist to suggest a rerun of the numbers excluding ethnic minorities with higher rates of crime than the national average?

348 Petero1818  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:54:36pm

re: #331 Achilles Tang

That's because it is harder to kill with a knife.

That is true. It is also harder to shoot 70 people in a theatre without automatic weapons or assault rifles. Shooting 6 or 7 people that could happen anywhere. The availability of automatic weapons, assault weapons and high capacity magazines made it far easier for this individual to kill and wound as many as he did. There is no reason for anyone to have these weapons.

349 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:54:53pm

re: #334 uncah91

Death rate and murder rate are very different.

well, we are talking about guns

the figures i am citing are for firearms related deaths

but if you want intentional homicide rates, here are the figures:

United Kingdom 1.23
United States 4.8
Norway 0.68

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

350 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:54:57pm

re: #343 Killgore Trout

Awesome!

351 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:55:03pm

re: #336 Varek Raith

A lot of that distrust comes because of lies told by the right.

And even more of it comes from the UN having nations like Cuba on its Human Rights Council.

352 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:55:59pm

re: #350 Dancing along the light of day

Awesome!

I like his prose more than his poetry but that one has always stuck with me.

353 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:55:59pm

re: #331 Achilles Tang

At some point technology gets to where pretty much anyone can access something as deadly or worse than guns. At some point we have to get at what makes a person a killer outside of the ways we already do understand.

So many men get angry, but few kill. So many of us confront some horrible situation, a spouse cheating or a simple but very painful assault. But fairly few of us become deliberate killers. The military goes to great lengths to enable soldiers to kill and almost all of those of those come home sane as can be.

What the hell makes the difference? We have got to figure that out.

354 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:56:38pm

re: #347 Dark_Falcon

At this point I need to ask: Do those posting on LGF think it racist to suggest a rerun of the numbers excluding ethnic minorities with higher rates of crime than the national average?

Sorry but I've misplaced my 10 foot pole.

355 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:57:03pm

re: #347 Dark_Falcon

But you also would need to control, if you could, for the very difference cultures and demography of the two nations.

At this point I need to ask: Do those posting on LGF think it racist to suggest a rerun of the numbers excluding ethnic minorities with higher rates of crime than the national average?

my comment for both of these sentences is: meaning?

356 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:57:07pm

re: #353 Daniel Ballard

Self control.

357 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:57:38pm

re: #345 uncah91

[Link: www.guncite.com...]

But I now notice that is a stat from 1993.

i haven't seen the sources for your stats yet

358 Achilles Tang  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:57:52pm

re: #347 Dark_Falcon

But you also would need to control, if you could, for the very difference cultures and demography of the two nations.

At this point I need to ask: Do those posting on LGF think it racist to suggest a rerun of the numbers excluding ethnic minorities with higher rates of crime than the national average?

There are different types of murders. Off the top of my head the gun mass murderers that come to mind were white and middle class origins. The everyday gangbangers are usually poor minorities. Different problems, different solutions (if any solutions).

359 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:58:45pm

re: #332 engineer cat

so, actually, if you want to take the u.s. vs norway as your examples, the figures i found show a very close correlation between per capita gun ownership and firearms related deaths

Well, that is a specious argument. There are many ways to die. Its a bit like saying snow skiing deaths in Bremuda are rare.

The arguments after Aurora have to do with mass murder, not accidental death or suicide.

360 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:59:15pm

re: #347 Dark_Falcon

But you also would need to control, if you could, for the very difference cultures and demography of the two nations.

At this point I need to ask: Do those posting on LGF think it racist to suggest a rerun of the numbers excluding ethnic minorities with higher rates of crime than the national average?

Yes. It's inherently racist to correct only for race but not poverty or education level.

361 Achilles Tang  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 6:59:17pm

re: #353 Daniel Ballard

The soldiers that come home do however kill themselves at a much higher rate than the rest, often with guns.

362 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:00:17pm

re: #357 engineer cat

i haven't seen the sources for your stats yet

sorry, i misinterpreted your post!

363 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:01:17pm

re: #359 uncah91

Well, that is a specious argument. There are many ways to die. Its a bit like saying snow skiing deaths in Bremuda are rare.

The arguments after Aurora have to do with mass murder, not accidental death or suicide.

we are talking about guns, and those are statistics about gun ownership and firearms related homicides

how more relevant could you get?

364 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:02:12pm

re: #346 Achilles Tang

It is not a good comparison for this purpose on many levels. Norway is much more outdoor/hunting oriented overall, with smaller more homogeneous population, higher living standards, higher average education level, and so on.

homogeneous

meaning?

365 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:02:25pm

re: #348 Petero1818

That is true. It is also harder to shoot 70 people in a theatre without automatic weapons or assault rifles. Shooting 6 or 7 people that could happen anywhere. The availability of automatic weapons, assault weapons and high capacity magazines made it far easier for this individual to kill and wound as many as he did. There is no reason for anyone to have these weapons.

The AR 15 with high capacity mag jammed. He probably did the most damage with the shotgun. It almost certainly accounts for 50+ injured, as he was firing buckshot, which would do a lot of damage in a crowded theater.

366 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:02:36pm

re: #361 Achilles Tang

Combat stress exacts a toll so profound that some break and suicide or worse. Great reason to avoid war as much as we can. But again the vast majority do not. we simply must discover he difference between.

367 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:02:42pm

re: #358 Achilles Tang

There are different types of murders. Off the top of my head the gun mass murderers that come to mind were white and middle class origins. The everyday gangbangers are usually poor minorities. Different problems, different solutions (if any solutions).

I'm aware. But far more law-abiding Americans are killed by gang-related shootings than by 'active shooter' mass murderers.

368 freetoken  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:04:41pm

re: #347 Dark_Falcon

At this point I need to ask: Do those posting on LGF think it racist to suggest a rerun of the numbers excluding ethnic minorities with higher rates of crime than the national average?

All one has to do is go to VDARE and you'll find plenty of leads to analyses along these lines.

If you really want to.

Besides education level and poverty, one needs to characterize the complete social picture in which any murderer finds himself (and most are men.) Family situation - fatherless? Childhood development factors - proper nutrition? And so on.

Human culture is very complex and the field of anthropology is full of scholars who spends their lives trying to understand it.

369 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:05:08pm

re: #360 goddamnedfrank

Yes. It's inherently racist to correct only for race but not poverty or education level.

I hear you. I'm not going to continue in that vein, then.

370 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:05:19pm

re: #363 engineer cat

we are talking about guns, and those are statistics about gun ownership and firearms related homicides

how more relevant could you get?

You found a near linear correlation between rates of death by firearm, not murder rates regardless of means, or deaths, regardless of means.

No guns = no death by guns, but it doesn't equal no death

371 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:06:25pm

re: #370 uncah91

You found a near linear correlation between rates of death by firearm, not murder rates regardless of means, or deaths, regardless of means.

No guns = no death by guns, but it doesn't equal no death

see my

re: #349 engineer cat

372 freetoken  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:07:59pm

Mountain Lion... I've still not upgraded to Snow Leopard.

I'm such a fuddy-duddy.

373 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:08:23pm

re: #287 uncah91

Schizophrenic seems likely. He's the right age for one thing.

He's the right age, yes, but I'm gonna wait until someone with a suitable degree actually says schizophrenia.

374 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:08:32pm

Opponents of universal healthcare make the same argument about cultural homogeneity as the reason it's possible in places like Norway, Sweden, Israel, etc. but isn't possible here in the US. For one thing, it's an atrocious argument, basically admitting that the arguer is only opposed to helping people that look different or who speak a different language. It's using diversity as a scapegoat, saying if they only lived around people like them all these nice things would be possible. It's also untrue, these countries are all fairly diverse, Israel especially.

375 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:08:53pm

re: #348 Petero1818

How hard is it to load up a truck with a timer, diesel oil and fertilizer? All the gun control in the world will not stop that. Get to the killer mind and you have a better solution.

Because otherwise every unarmed person that falls to a predator is a triumph of gun control? Let's just not go there.

376 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:10:00pm

re: #356 Dancing along the light of day

Self control.

THIS. QFT

377 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:10:15pm

re: #357 engineer cat

i haven't seen the sources for your stats yet

Well, you already showed the 1/6th murder rate.

Are you saying you don't see the ownership rate on the chart, or you want the primary source?

378 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:10:56pm

i always say when people use the phrase "human nature", they're usually not talking about something good

i don't want to repeal the 2nd amendment by any means, and i think an america where citizens could not own their own firearms would be a more totalitarian and less free america, but on the other hand human nature dictates that where you enable humans to kill more easily, they will kill more easily, because humans kill other humans, and if it is easier for them to kill they will kill more

379 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:11:28pm

re: #293 Daniel Ballard

I have a logical counter to test out. One might agree that defensive use of guns is rare as compared to legal gun ownership. But a reasonable counter might be that there are few murderers among ordinary "shoot at the range" gun owners.

An awful lot of the killers out there are convicted felons, forbidden to own or possess guns. So gun control that primarily impacts ordinary gun owners might not be as helpful as one might think.

First, what are the actual numbers on homicides with legally/illegally owned firearms?

380 Petero1818  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:12:27pm

re: #365 uncah91

The AR 15 with high capacity mag jammed. He probably did the most damage with the shotgun. It almost certainly accounts for 50+ injured, as he was firing buckshot, which would do a lot of damage in a crowded theater.

That is speculation at this point. The AR 15 jammed, but we dont know how many rounds were fired prior to it jamming. Moreover, had it not jammed, it would have allowed him to unload 100 rounds in a short period of time, which of course is the intent, that is to kill many, with the least amount of effort. It is hardly something anyone needs outside of the military or police.

381 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:12:31pm

re: #377 uncah91

Well, you already showed the 1/6th murder rate.

Are you saying you don't see the ownership rate on the chart, or you want the primary source?

sorry, i misinterpreted your post

on the other hand, the tables i found don't match the numbers on your table

382 Mich-again  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:14:00pm

re: #375 Daniel Ballard

Because otherwise every unarmed person that falls to a predator is a triumph of gun control?

And how do you refer to the ones who died by mistake from weapons that were intended for self defense. Is that a triumph for the NRA?

383 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:15:23pm

re: #381 engineer cat

sorry, i misinterpreted your post

on the other hand, the tables i found don't match the numbers on your table

yeah, I already mentioned that i noticed those are stats from the early 90s.

384 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:16:22pm

re: #316 Gus

In the USA we're plopping down infants in front of the TV set where they eventually begin to watch crime dramas at a very early part of brain development.

As a dedicated crime-drama junkie, I would like to point out that crime dramas are morality plays about the invariable capture and punishment of the criminals, in under an hour. They may give people wildly unrealistic ideas about law enforcement, but they have assured me that if I am the victim of a violent crime, the perps will be brought to justice by witty, well-dressed people with tortured pasts in very short order.

386 Petero1818  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:17:07pm

re: #375 Daniel Ballard

How hard is it to load up a truck with a timer, diesel oil and fertilizer? All the gun control in the world will not stop that. Get to the killer mind and you have a better solution.

Because otherwise every unarmed person that falls to a predator is a triumph of gun control? Let's just not go there.

Except there are very good reasons for individuals to have pick up trucks, diesel oil and fertilizer. There is no good reason to have an automatic weapon that can fire 100 rounds in a minute outside of military and law enforcement uses.
There are always going to be ways to kill people. There are also always going to be people who are not mentally stable. It is absurd to think we are going to stop people from flipping out before they do so. It may work in movies, but not in real life.

387 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:17:15pm

re: #375 Daniel Ballard

How hard is it to load up a truck with a timer, diesel oil and fertilizer? All the gun control in the world will not stop that. Get to the killer mind and you have a better solution.

Because otherwise every unarmed person that falls to a predator is a triumph of gun control? Let's just not go there.

What about higher restrictions for specific weapons? The higher the capacity the greater the limitations becomes.

388 freetoken  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:18:29pm
389 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:18:29pm

re: #367 Dark_Falcon

I'm aware. But far more law-abiding Americans are killed by gang-related shootings than by 'active shooter' mass murderers.

Since you've stated your clear opposition to the ATF doing anything about straw sales I'm not really sure why you make the distinction. It seems like a dodge.

390 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:18:34pm

re: #372 freetoken

Have you gotten any Tangerine juice this season, Mr. Loves Loquats? TJ's has it, fresh, and it is very tasty!

391 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:19:28pm

re: #387 Gus

What about higher restrictions for specific weapons? The higher the capacity the greater the limitations becomes.

Meaning that you can still have the higher capacity weapons available but you will be required to maintain higher standards on a personal level up to and including yearly medicals like they do with private and commercial pilots.

392 Big Joe  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:19:36pm

re: #373 SanFranciscoZionist

He's the right age, yes, but I'm gonna wait until someone with a suitable degree actually says schizophrenia.

He's also very smart and his field was neuroscience. He could be faking his bizarre actions in court.

393 freetoken  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:19:55pm

re: #390 Dancing along the light of day

I don't normally buy pre-squeezed juice.

394 Decatur Deb  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:20:17pm

re: #384 SanFranciscoZionist

As a dedicated crime-drama junkie, I would like to point out that crime dramas are morality plays about the invariable capture and punishment of the criminals, in under an hour. They may give people wildly unrealistic ideas about law enforcement, but they have assured me that if I am the victim of a violent crime, the perps will be brought to justice by witty, well-dressed people with tortured pasts in very short order.

Our overseas tours kept us away from American TV for years at a time. On one of the returns home the family landed in the middle of one of the Lawn Order festivals. Seeing two or three spin-offs on several channels for days on end showed how much we were making ourselves afraid of our neighbors. Very corrosive of community.

395 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:20:20pm

re: #380 Petero1818

That is speculation at this point. The AR 15 jammed, but we dont know how many rounds were fired prior to it jamming. Moreover, had it not jammed, it would have allowed him to unload 100 rounds in a short period of time, which of course is the intent, that is to kill many, with the least amount of effort. It is hardly something anyone needs outside of the military or police.

That magazine design isn't reliable. Someone who actually knew what they were doing wouldn't have used it, as they are quite prone to jamming. In a theater, intent on mass murder, the advantage to AR 15 over a simple handgun is minimal. Note what Loughner was able to do with just one handgun.

396 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:20:36pm

re: #393 freetoken

It's really very good. Or, you could squeeze your own!

397 freetoken  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:21:14pm

re: #390 Dancing along the light of day

Oh, here in SoCal most of the "mandarin" type citrus matures it fruit in winter through spring. I don't know of any trees locally with ripe fruit. Some will be, though, in a couple of months.

398 Ojoe  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:22:05pm

re: #387 Gus

re: #387 Gus

What about higher restrictions for specific weapons? The higher the capacity the greater the limitations becomes.

Fine with me. The 2nd amendment is well served by the single shot, high caliber rifle with a scope.

And perhaps we should encourage the dog pile approach in situations like in Colorado; an insane shooter would be stopped if 6 or 8 people quickly rushed toward him (or her) and just pile-tackled the SOB/DOB. Some might be shot on the way, but not all of them. I think I'd try it; I'm older anyway, but still in reasonable shape.

399 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:22:30pm

re: #392 Big Joe

He's also very smart and his field was neuroscience. He could be faking his bizarre actions in court.

This--'acting crazy' is not that hard. Or he may just be freaking out. I'm just cautious about diagnosing anything until we actually know something about him.

400 freetoken  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:22:35pm

Right now the local fig trees are getting real close to ripening the fruit. The Breba crop was very short (but good, as usual, with extra large fruit.) Probably 3 weeks till the main crop starts to come in.

401 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:24:43pm

re: #400 freetoken

Right now the local fig trees are getting real close to ripening the fruit. The Breba crop was very short (but good, as usual, with extra large fruit.) Probably 3 weeks till the main crop starts to come in.

My fig tree hasn't produced the past two years due to off weather. Looks like this year might be better. Also looks like a decent crop of hazelnuts this year.

402 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:24:51pm

re: #392 Big Joe

He's also very smart and his field was neuroscience. He could be faking his bizarre actions in court.

Well, but what is the sane reason to shoot up a crowded theater? What nefarious plan is he trying to get away with?

403 freetoken  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:25:01pm

Anyway, Romney on NBC apparently didn't claim that what Swaine wrote was false. Likely Romney was afraid that if he pushed Swaine may have actually dumped the name in public, and that would have been worse.

404 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:25:24pm

re: #395 uncah91

That magazine design isn't reliable. Someone who actually knew what they were doing wouldn't have used it, as they are quite prone to jamming. In a theater, intent on mass murder, the advantage to AR 15 over a simple handgun is minimal. Note what Loughner was able to do with just one handgun.

With an extended clip....

405 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:25:35pm

re: #394 Decatur Deb

Our overseas tours kept us away from American TV for years at a time. On one of the returns home the family landed in the middle of one of the Lawn Order festivals. Seeing two or three spin-offs on several channels for days on end showed how much we were making ourselves afraid of our neighbors. Very corrosive of community.

Interesting. I'm not sure why, but that's not what I focus on at all.

406 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:26:00pm

re: #398 Ojoe

re: #387 Gus

Fine with me. The 2nd amendment is well served by the single shot, high caliber rifle with a scope.

And perhaps we should encourage the dog pile approach in situations like in Colorado; an insane shooter would be stopped if 6 or 8 people quickly rushed toward him (or her) and just pile-tackled the SOB/DOB. Some might be shot on the way, but not all of them. I think I'd try it; I'm older anyway, but still in reasonable shape.

I'm trying to think of a compromise of course. Rather than saying "no AR-15 for you" we instead say, yes you can buy an AR-15 but this is what you're going to have to do. IOW it would be a graduated requirement based on the type of weapon rather than a blanket treatment of all guns. I know. Some will say that the AR-15 is a bad example.

407 freetoken  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:26:01pm

re: #401 Killgore Trout

My fig tree hasn't produced the past two years due to off weather. Looks like this year might be better. Also looks like a decent crop of hazelnuts this year.

Love hazelnuts... but they don't do well here. Fig trees need a long warm season, and this year has been pretty warm here and the trees are loaded.

408 Kragar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:26:33pm

Romney opposes stricter gun laws, says they won't 'make all bad things go away'

HOORAY! LEGAL MARIJUANA! After all, stricter laws won't make the bad things go away.

409 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:27:36pm

re: #408 Kragar

Romney opposes stricter gun laws, says they won't 'make all bad things go away'

HOORAY! LEGAL MARIJUANA! After all, stricter laws won't make the bad things go away.

Most excellent.
*Superlaser capacitor at 10% and rising*

410 Petero1818  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:27:51pm

Could someone please explain to me why people can rationalize marijuana being illegal but be ok with someone legally obtaining automatic weapons with no useful purpose other than the killing of multiple human beings in a short period of time. And please don't talk to me about constitutional rights. Use logic.

411 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:27:53pm

re: #391 Gus

Meaning that you can still have the higher capacity weapons available but you will be required to maintain higher standards on a personal level up to and including yearly medicals like they do with private and commercial pilots.

I think I'd be in favor of licensing requirements for all gun ownership. I'm not sure the SC would allow it, but having to demonstrate knowledge of proper safety procedures, etc seems very reasonable to me.

412 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:27:57pm

re: #402 uncah91

Well, but what is the sane reason to shoot up a crowded theater? What nefarious plan is he trying to get away with?

I think he's bonkers. No sane person could do what he did. I know people don't like treating these criminals as being insane because it implies he should be treated more leniently or "innocent by reason of insanity."

413 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:28:39pm

re: #412 Gus

I think he's bonkers. No sane person could do what he did. I know people don't like treating these criminals as being insane because it implies he should be treated more leniently or "innocent by reason of insanity."

Clinically sane people have done far worse.

414 Kragar  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:29:43pm

re: #409 Varek Raith

Most excellent.
*Superlaser capacitor at 10% and rising*

Might as well let all undocumented aliens stay as well. After all, stricter immigration laws won't make the bad things go away.

415 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:29:48pm

re: #404 Varek Raith

With an extended clip...

Extended? As I understood it he had the standard mags for a .40 cal Glock. The standard magazine for a .40 full-size Glock is 15 rounds. There are extended mags that hold around 30 rounds, but I don't not believe that James used those.

416 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:31:13pm

re: #415 Dark_Falcon

Extended? As I understood it he had the standard mags for a .40 cal Glock. The standard magazine for a .40 full-size Glock is 15 rounds. There are extended mags that hold around 30 rounds, but I don't not believe that James used those.

Hmm, let me check.

417 Achilles Tang  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:32:56pm

re: #364 engineer cat

homogeneous

meaning?

Meaning small percentage of minority groups that may not yet fit in. What do you think it means?

418 Interesting Times  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:33:03pm

re: #412 Gus

I think he's bonkers. No sane person could do what he did.

I agree. Breivik had a very chilling, specific, and political motive for what he did. If Holmes had shot up his school, that might seem a less "insane" motive (i.e. bitterness at academic failure = lash out at the school. Of course it's evil and hideous, but still makes some level of "logical" sense...which shooting up a Batman showing most definitely doesn't).

419 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:34:15pm

re: #413 SanFranciscoZionist

Clinically sane people have done far worse.

Yes. However if that's true then this example isn't a very good argument for the lack of mental health resources in the USA being a partial cause.

420 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:34:31pm

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

Importantly, the source said, the gun had a high capacity magazine that can hold up to 30 or more rounds

421 Ojoe  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:34:39pm

Queen Elizabeth fires an AR 80.

(About 20 years ago)

Good night all.

422 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:34:40pm

re: #404 Varek Raith

With an extended clip...

Yet the second extended clip is what caused the jam. They're notorious for that because that much travel is asking a lot from the spring. Ten rounders tend to feed no problem.

re: #415 Dark_Falcon

Extended? As I understood it he had the standard mags for a .40 cal Glock. The standard magazine for a .40 full-size Glock is 15 rounds. There are extended mags that hold around 30 rounds, but I don't not believe that James used those.

Jared Loughner ≠ James Holmes. Loughner had 30 round mags, the second of which jammed on him.

423 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:35:04pm

re: #410 Petero1818

Could someone please explain to me why people can rationalize marijuana being illegal but be ok with someone legally obtaining automatic weapons with no useful purpose other than the killing of multiple human beings in a short period of time. And please don't talk to me about constitutional rights. Use logic.

Objection: The AR-15 used in the Aurora was not an automatic (or full-auto) weapon. It was not capable of continuous firing by pulling and holding the trigger back. It had to have the trigger pulled for each shot and thus was a semi-automatic weapon.

For those who think I'm being a bear on this point: Sorry, but I think its important. The idea that the civilian versions of the AR-15 are fully-automatic weapons is a seriously problematic error I've had to correct repeatedly in real life, and it exists because people are not careful in their words.

424 freetoken  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:35:51pm

re: #413 SanFranciscoZionist

Clinically sane people have done far worse.

Such as wiping entire nations off the map.

425 otoc  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:36:26pm

Thanks for sharing this Charles. Appreciate it.

426 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:36:37pm

Guns do not necessarily kill, the people who fire them are the killers.
Millions of cars are driven every day, and few are killed, and fewer are killed deliberately. It's a machine, that a PERSON chooses to use.

427 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:36:50pm

re: #404 Varek Raith

With an extended clip...

Sure. Frankly, increased regulation of extended magazines seems very reasonable to me. But it's not actually very relevant to this shooting. He would have emptied his first gun, gone to a second, gone to a third. He had the situation essentially controlled. He could have loaded a second clip easily.

428 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:37:58pm

Why are we even debating this?
Nothing will change.
Americans are content with the status quo of gun violence and massacres every couple of years.

429 freetoken  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:38:05pm
430 Achilles Tang  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:38:05pm

re: #423 Dark_Falcon

What practical difference does this make in this scenario? Are you saying it's not as serious as it sounds because he could have killed twice as many on full auto?

431 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:38:15pm

OK. here is a dumb question. Just how biased is the PEW Research Council?

432 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:38:29pm

re: #410 Petero1818

Could someone please explain to me why people can rationalize marijuana being illegal but be ok with someone legally obtaining automatic weapons with no useful purpose other than the killing of multiple human beings in a short period of time. And please don't talk to me about constitutional rights. Use logic.

Well, I can't rationalize mj being illegal, so don't look at me.

/slightly

433 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:38:36pm
434 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:39:44pm

re: #433 Gus

Charles Whitman

Ordinary rifle. Ordinary sawed-off shotgun and ordinary six-shooter. 14 dead.

435 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:40:39pm

re: #434 Gus

Ordinary rifle. Ordinary sawed-off shotgun and ordinary six-shooter. 14 dead.

Piano lessons... IQ of 138.

436 Ojoe  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:41:25pm

re: #434 Gus

Exactly. The approach of crazy-person control might be more effective than gun control in these situations. Laura's law and all that.

437 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:41:45pm

re: #422 goddamnedfrank

Yet the second extended clip is what caused the jam. They're notorious for that because that much travel is asking a lot from the spring. Ten rounders tend to feed no problem.

As I understood it, James was using a drum magazine. The only 100-round box mags for the AR-15/M-16 are the new (less than 1.5 years old) Surefire mags. Those are fairly expensive and still uncommon in civilian hands.

re: #415 Dark_Falcon

Jared Loughner ≠ James Holmes. Loughner had 30 round mags, the second of which jammed on him.

I thought Varek was talking about Holmes, Frank, which is why I referred to the .40 caliber model of Glock. Loughner did indeed use the 30 round extended mags built for the 9mm Glock 19. A minor miscommunication, please excuse me.

438 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:42:26pm

re: #437 Dark_Falcon

I thought Varek was talking about Holmes, Frank, which is why I referred to the .40 caliber model of Glock. Loughner did indeed use the 30 round extended mags built for the 9mm Glock 19. A minor miscommunication, please excuse me.

Whoops.
My bad.

439 Achilles Tang  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:42:49pm

re: #367 Dark_Falcon

I'm aware. But far more law-abiding Americans are killed by gang-related shootings than by 'active shooter' mass murderers.

As I said, different problems, different approaches. One cannot be used to argue about the other.

440 Ojoe  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:43:38pm

See you all tomorrow.

441 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:43:55pm

re: #430 Achilles Tang

What practical difference does this make in this scenario? Are you saying it's not as serious as it sounds because he could have killed twice as many on full auto?

It's not about "in this scenario", its about making sure people know what the facts are. If you simply ignore bad information going out to people, they'll make decisions based on things that are not true.

442 freetoken  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:44:05pm

re: #428 Varek Raith

I spent 30 years in uniform defending the freedoms that we all enjoy here in the United States. With that freedom come responsibilities and risks. I have a God-given right (or, if you’re a nonbeliever, a natural right) to protect myself and my family from harm. Criminals are called “lawbreakers” for good reason.

See, he has a God given right to wield a lethal weapon.

God, however, did not give you a right to live in a society free of Colorado-style massacres.

443 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:44:34pm

re: #419 Gus

Yes. However if that's true then this example isn't a very good argument for the lack of mental health resources in the USA being a partial cause.

I'd rather know what happened than get the right answer back.

444 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:44:49pm

re: #436 Ojoe

Exactly. The approach of crazy-person control might be more effective than gun control in these situations. Laura's law and all that.

If we could come up with some way of catching schizophrenics early on, before they fully manifest, that would be good.

445 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:45:28pm

re: #437 Dark_Falcon

I thought Varek was talking about Holmes, Frank, which is why I referred to the .40 caliber model of Glock. Loughner did indeed use the 30 round extended mags built for the 9mm Glock 19. A minor miscommunication, please excuse me.

No problem. I'm far more annoyed by your failure to even acknowledge that you aren't interested in doing anything about straw sales, that you want the ATF "to go through the motions and not get any big ideas."

As far as I'm concerned this kind of mindset is a huge part of the problem.

446 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:46:18pm

re: #438 Varek Raith

Whoops.
My bad.

It's all good. Both Loughner and Holmes used Glock pistols, so it was an easy mistake to make.

447 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:50:22pm

re: #445 goddamnedfrank

No problem. I'm far more annoyed by your failure to even acknowledge that you aren't interested in doing anything about straw sales, that you want the ATF "to go through the motions and not get any big ideas."

As far as I'm concerned this kind of mindset is a huge part of the problem.

The ATF would need a new law to be able to act effectively, and I do not know what that law should look like, for starters. I don't want it to be some 'crisis law' since it would effect firearms sales for years to come.

So I guess the first question is one of priorities. Thoughts?

448 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:50:54pm

re: #428 Varek Raith

Why are we even debating this?
Nothing will change.
Americans are content with the status quo of gun violence and massacres every couple of years.

I think if we managed to fully outlaw guns, then we would see more mass murders of small school children.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

449 freetoken  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:51:57pm

re: #431 Bubblehead II

OK. here is a dumb question. Just how biased is the PEW Research Council?

Do you mean the Pew Charitable Trust, which I believe set up the non-profit Pew Research Center?

Like much of reality, they tend to have a "liberal" bias.

450 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:52:22pm

re: #448 uncah91

I think if we managed to fully outlaw guns, then we would see more mass murders of small school children.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

No one here is talking about "fully outlaw[ing] guns". So your post is a bit of a non-sequitur.

451 BishopX  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:52:55pm

In the aftermath of the Aurora shooting I've heard quite about about how if guns aren't available this deranged murderer would simply chosen another weapon, as that is what any other rational person intent upon mass murder would do. If he couldn't use a semi-automatic rifle he would use a pistol, if he couldn't use a pistol he could use a car bomb...and so on.

The thing that strikes about this line of argument is that it assumes the killer is rational. I don't the assumption that people who spend months planning to kill as many strangers as possible with no larger purpose are rational is valid. You have to be bug-fuck crazy to do that kind of thing. Crazy people are by definition not rational.

A good example of this is suicidal ideation. When people decide that they are going to kill themselves they typically fixate upon a single method of accomplishing this, and if denied that method they don't go on to use a secondary method. My favorite example of this is an anecdote from San Fransisco some years ago. One day a police officer was driving across the Golden Gate bridge and saw a man pacing back and forth on the west side of the bridge, obviously in distress. When asked what the problem was the man responded that he wanted to kill himself by jumping off the east side of the bridge, and traffic was too heavy for him to cross safely.

So while it's certainly possible that if Holmes, Loughner or any other the other 'random' mass shooters were denied access to a firearms they would find another method of causing mayhem, I find find the assertion that they all will dubious.

Reducing the prevalence of guns will reduce the frequency of these massacres. Gun control will not solve this problem, but it can contain it.

452 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:53:41pm

re: #448 uncah91

I think if we managed to fully outlaw guns, then we would see more mass murders of small school children.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Straw man.
No one here said that.

453 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:54:57pm

RE my 431

Charles, just how neutral/biased are they?

454 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:56:16pm

re: #375 Daniel Ballard

How hard is it to load up a truck with a timer, diesel oil and fertilizer? All the gun control in the world will not stop that. Get to the killer mind and you have a better solution.

Because otherwise every unarmed person that falls to a predator is a triumph of gun control? Let's just not go there.

You can't assume having a gun equates to surviving an attack, they're far too complex an event.

Finding what goes on in a killer's mind is also very complex, made more difficult because some of it can be due to experience, some due to genetics and some due to physical damage to the brain. Even when it's due to something like genetics with some predictive power, it can take a trigger to unleash. Putting somebody in a cell, whether figurative or literal, because they may potentially turn into a killer goes against our philosophy of innocent until proved guilty.

455 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:57:00pm

re: #450 Dark_Falcon

No one here is talking about "fully outlaw[ing] guns". So your post is a bit of a non-sequitur.

Perhaps that should have read "even if". My point being, it's all well and good to want to something, but it should actually address the problem, actually make a difference.

Now, if we want to talk about accidental death and guns, or suicide and guns, that is a different story.

456 freetoken  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:57:26pm

re: #453 Bubblehead II

RE my 431

Charles, just how neutral/biased are they?

Well, I'm not Charles, but I do irregularly check out the Pew Research site. They are more academic than some of the commercial pollsters, if that is what you are looking for.

457 Petero1818  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:58:12pm

re: #448 uncah91

I think if we managed to fully outlaw guns, then we would see more mass murders of small school children.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Except Japan has the lowest or second lowest intentional murder rate in the world.

458 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:58:21pm

Look, I hate guns.
Hate them.
I don't want to ban them.
I just want reasonable requirements.
Like mandatory safety and gun handling classes. Making straw purchases illegal.

459 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:59:00pm

re: #376 Daniel Ballard

THIS. QFT

Self control isn't the difference. Self control as the prime motivator assumes identical brain chemistry for all people which is demonstrably false.

460 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:00:05pm

re: #443 SanFranciscoZionist

I'd rather know what happened than get the right answer back.

Yes. And sometimes there is no rhyme or reason.

461 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:00:41pm

re: #447 Dark_Falcon

The ATF would need a new law to be able to act effectively, and I do not know what that law should look like, for starters. I don't want it to be some 'crisis law' since it would effect firearms sales for years to come.

So I guess the first question is one of priorities. Thoughts?

You said you didn't want them doing anything. In the context of F&F that meant even keeping track of people on welfare and food stamps purchasing massive volumes of rifles. The only reason a new law is even necessary is because Arizona and other states makes it legal for a person to change their mind about a purchase being for oneself a fraction of a second after signing the forms attesting to that fact. What was occurring was clear and obvious fraud yet you were opposed to the ATF even trying to do anything about it. That's incredibly lame.

Then you hypocritically tried to blame the ATF for not blocking the sales as if they even had the power to do so. Even recommending that a sale not go through could be inferred to be tortious interference of the rights of both the seller and purchaser. Which is why you fell back on the "go through the motions," position making it clear that you don't want them even attempting to do anything about the problem.

462 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:01:17pm

re: #452 Varek Raith

Straw man.
No one here said that.

I wasn't straw manning. I was trying to say that even a total ban on guns is unlikely to deal with mass murder.

In the Aurora case, a ban on extended clips and AR 15s probably would have resulted in more deaths, not fewer.

I'm interested in regulations that accomplish things, not that just make us feel like we are doing something.

463 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:02:22pm

re: #386 Petero1818

Except there are very good reasons for individuals to have pick up trucks, diesel oil and fertilizer. There is no good reason to have an automatic weapon that can fire 100 rounds in a minute outside of military and law enforcement uses.
There are always going to be ways to kill people. There are also always going to be people who are not mentally stable. It is absurd to think we are going to stop people from flipping out before they do so. It may work in movies, but not in real life.

I agree.
Guns are designed and built for one reason, to kill and to it efficiently. All the other tools you've mentioned have primary purposes that do not include death.

464 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:03:02pm

re: #458 Varek Raith

Look, I hate guns.
Hate them.
I don't want to ban them.
I just want reasonable requirements.
Like mandatory safety and gun handling classes. Making straw purchases illegal.

Myself I don't have guns. I've shot a few in my teen years. I agree wholeheartedly on the requirements though. I will also reiterate that regulating guns isn't as much the answer as it is in regulating the gun owners. If that makes sense.

465 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:04:22pm

re: #456 freetoken

Well, I'm not Charles, but I do irregularly check out the Pew Research site. They are more academic than some of the commercial pollsters, if that is what you are looking for.

Thanks. I just spent about 20 min doing a poll with them. Some of the questions didn't have an answer that matched my response. Just was wondering if they were actually neutral or had a partisan agenda.

466 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:05:16pm

re: #462 uncah91

I wasn't straw manning. I was trying to say that even a total ban on guns is unlikely to deal with mass murder.

In the Aurora case, a ban on extended clips and AR 15s probably would have resulted in more deaths, not fewer.

I'm interested in regulations that accomplish things, not that just make us feel like we are doing something.

Based on what?

467 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:06:01pm

re: #463 b_sharp

I agree.
Guns are designed and built for one reason, to kill and to it efficiently. All the other tools you've mentioned have primary purposes that do not include death.

Yet more people are killed in auto/pedestrian accidents.

468 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:08:56pm

Iwouldprefernotto,
Based on what?

469 freetoken  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:09:03pm

re: #465 Bubblehead II

Pew Research organization is, as far as I can tell, one of the more careful and open of the polling research outfits. First, they are non-profit which helps them from having to bend to some sponsor. Secondly, they've been around for a while, and publish their results in more detail than most, and they publish information on their methods too. That's why I use them as a source when I want to do a Page on say creationism. I prefer them to Gallup, for example.

470 austin_blue  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:09:44pm

re: #466 Varek Raith

Based on what?

Any clip bigger than a 20 on the AR-15 tends to cause feed problems. Duct-taping three 20 round clips together (one up, inserted first, and two down) is much more efficient. Fortunately, the sociopath didn't know guns.

471 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:10:18pm

re: #426 Dancing along the light of day

Guns do not necessarily kill, the people who fire them are the killers.
Millions of cars are driven every day, and few are killed, and fewer are killed deliberately. It's a machine, that a PERSON chooses to use.

It's actually a combination of the two. Without the efficiency of a gun, where multiple people can be killed from a distance, murders would still happen because, we as a species, tend to be communal but tribal, but the number of deaths would drop.

This has to be recognized in the discussion, but what also has to be acknowledged is the difficulty in determining intent in a human and the relative ease of regulating guns.

472 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:10:25pm

re: #470 austin_blue

Any clip bigger than a 20 on the AR-15 tends to cause feed problems. Duct-taping three 20 round clips together (one up, inserted first, and two down) is much more efficient. Fortunately, the sociopath didn't know guns.

Sorry, I'm not going to base a law on hoping it jams.

473 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:10:31pm

re: #454 b_sharp

I would not say a gun is any guarantee apart from a possible fighting chance. Nor would I say we would summarily jail anyone unbalanced. Self control is something that we all must have, or any harmful whim becomes all too easy to execute. I would think that brain chemistry is but one facet of the killer, but I merely speculate, and advocate finding out to a better degree. Science may lead the way.

There are so many ways to commit violence, we can not control them all.

474 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:10:44pm

re: #461 goddamnedfrank

You said you didn't want them doing anything. In the context of F&F that meant even keeping track of people on welfare and food stamps purchasing massive volumes of rifles. The only reason a new law is even necessary is because Arizona and other states makes it legal for a person to change their mind about a purchase being for oneself a fraction of a second after signing the forms attesting to that fact. What was occurring was clear and obvious fraud yet you were opposed to the ATF even trying to do anything about it.

I'm not going to say 'have a care', but its all the going after me that played a role in my saying that. That welfare stuff was something I neither knew of or was thinking about. I didn't have a good idea about what to do, but I didn't want to just sign onto someone else's idea. I said what I said because I did not know what else I could say that would have gotten you to back off.

475 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:10:50pm

I learned a long time ago that prohibition doesn't stop human behavior.

476 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:12:20pm

re: #475 Gus

I learned a long time ago that prohibition doesn't stop human behavior.

Not a lesson I could miss either, given my study of Chicago's history.

477 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:12:41pm

Tonight's episode of Wormhole is tackling the task of finding the root of evil in human brains. A worthy effort, well timed.

478 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:12:43pm

re: #434 Gus

Ordinary rifle. Ordinary sawed-off shotgun and ordinary six-shooter. 14 dead.

What's your point?

479 freetoken  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:13:05pm

See, we are more God-less today:

The Evolution of English Language Over the Last 500 Years

Unsurprisingly, a lot's changed since the 1500s, not least of all language. But now a physicist has crunched through 5.2 million books published over five centuries in order to analyze the way the English language has changed over time.

There is, of course, one constant: by far and away the most popular word throughout history is the humble definite article "the". No surprise there, as it's an indispensable classic.

Dig around into short phrases, however, and things get more interesting. Back in 1520, the most popular three-word phrase was "of the Pope". Not so these days, because it's been superseded by the more useful, but rather more boring, string "one of the".

Extend the length of phrase to five letters, and a similar pattern emerges. Favorites from the 1520s remain heavily religious, including "the Pope and his followers", "the laws of the Church" and "the body and blood of Christ", while modern-day diction remains dull, offering up the likes of "at the end of the", "in the middle of the" and "on the other side of".

So, we may be less religious, but we're also rather more boring. One last little nugget: over the last century the words "United States" have become increasingly common. Which isn't surprising, but is at the least heartwarming.

[...]

480 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:13:09pm

re: #458 Varek Raith

Look, I hate guns.
Hate them.
I don't want to ban them.
I just want reasonable requirements.
Like mandatory safety and gun handling classes. Making straw purchases illegal.

Honestly, I'm whole heatedly behind this. I'm not sure it could get past the Supremes, but I completely agree.

Well, except that I don't hate guns. But that's minor.

481 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:14:16pm

I love swords though.
Why can't I get a carry permit?!
:P

482 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:15:00pm

re: #478 b_sharp

What's your point?

Don't focus wholly on the material. That's part of my point.

483 austin_blue  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:15:29pm

re: #472 Varek Raith

Sorry, I'm not going to base a law on hoping it jams.

I agree that 100 round drums are stupid, and that people have no reason to own one except to increase their penis size, but banning them as a knee jerk is also stupid.

Let's agree that if you can't hit a target/game animal in five shots, you shouldn't be holding a rifle/shotgun/pistol because you can't shoot.

That's a starting point for discussion.

484 Big Joe  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:15:31pm

re: #408 Kragar

Romney opposes stricter gun laws, says they won't 'make all bad things go away'

HOORAY! LEGAL MARIJUANA! After all, stricter laws won't make the bad things go away.

Mitt Romney: "Marijuana is the starter drug...If you elect me president you are not going to see legalized medical marijuana. I am going to fight it tooth and nail"

Not very likely, he has compartmentalized his thinking.

485 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:18:09pm

re: #483 austin_blue

I agree that 100 round drums are stupid, and that people have no reason to own one except to increase their penis size, but banning them as a knee jerk is also stupid.

Let's agree that if you can't hit a target/game animal in five shots, you shouldn't be holding a rifle/shotgun/pistol because you can't shoot.

That's a starting point for discussion.

I can dig that.

486 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:18:39pm

re: #469 freetoken

Thanks. Then I will take it I didn't actually waste my time answering their questions. BTW, the young Lady who was asking the questions, She was quite pleasant, even when I laughed when She asked if I preferred Mitt or Obama as our Next President.

487 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:19:32pm

re: #486 Bubblehead II

Thanks. Then I will take it I didn't actually waste my time answering their questions. BTW, the young Lady who was asking the questions, She was quite pleasant, even when I laughed when She asked if I preferred Mitt or Obama as our Next President.

You said me, right?
Right?

488 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:19:35pm

re: #483 austin_blue

I agree that 100 round drums are stupid, and that people have no reason to own one except to increase their penis size, but banning them as a knee jerk is also stupid.

Let's agree that if you can't hit a target/game animal in five shots, you shouldn't be holding a rifle/shotgun/pistol because you can't shoot.

That's a starting point for discussion.

Number two. Never point a gun at anyone unless you mean to use it.

489 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:19:46pm

re: #467 Gus

Yet more people are killed in auto/pedestrian accidents.

Not intentionally.

The number of pedestrians and the number of cars active at any one given time makes the probability of an accidental death fairly high.

The number of deaths per shot of a firearm is likely much higher than the number of deaths per vehicle hour/minute/second/km.

490 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:21:38pm

re: #489 b_sharp

And yet gun accidents are fuel for the anti gun engine.

491 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:21:41pm

re: #483 austin_blue

I agree that 100 round drums are stupid, and that people have no reason to own one except to increase their penis size, but banning them as a knee jerk is also stupid.

Let's agree that if you can't hit a target/game animal in five shots, you shouldn't be holding a rifle/shotgun/pistol because you can't shoot.

That's a starting point for discussion.

What about long ranges or people who are learning?

492 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:23:50pm

re: #488 Gus

Number two. Never point a gun at anyone unless you mean to use it.

No need for the strike-through, Gus, since there are reasons a law-abiding person might well have to point a gun at a thug. But they should only do that if they are able to use said gun and really understand the meaning of doing so.

493 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:23:54pm

re: #478 b_sharp

What's your point?

That the discussion around gun control that we are having doesn't really get to the root of the problem. Why huff and puff at assault rifles and extended clips when banning those wouldn't have helped?

494 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:24:05pm

re: #491 Dark_Falcon

What about long ranges or people who are learning?

If they are being taught by a pro or experienced gun user than that's fine.
Long range is fine too.

495 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:24:17pm

I had fun on the swings tonight. People who have silly fun on things like swings, don't kill others.

496 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:24:38pm

re: #489 b_sharp

Not intentionally.

The number of pedestrians and the number of cars active at any one given time makes the probability of an accidental death fairly high.

The number of deaths per shot of a firearm is likely much higher than the number of deaths per vehicle hour/minute/second/km.

I'm trying to be realistic and learn to get along. I live in a strongly Amendment 2 and pro-gun society. My dad used to bring the 12 gauge and the Mauser along in the motorhome. We drove clear across from NJ to Wyoming with those two and my dad slept with the shotgun. I knew how to fire the Mauser. My liberal woman friend bought a 9 mil. for self protection. My neighbor the former Marine pro-Obama friend was a gun nut. My other neighbor's dad was a gun inventor. He had two handguns in his house and a disassembled AR-15. Place I'm at now has a rifle somewhere. I used to shoot mostly a BB gun in the backyard as a kid. But the point is I'm just cruising along with the world as it is and not as it probably should be.

497 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:25:00pm

re: #495 Dancing along the light of day

I had fun on the swings tonight. People who have silly fun on things like swings, don't kill others.

Unless you put a rocket on the swing.
*Whistles innocently*

498 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:25:30pm

re: #496 Gus

Being aware of guns, and knowing how to use them DOES NOT mean you will abuse them.

499 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:25:40pm

re: #473 Daniel Ballard

I would not say a gun is any guarantee apart from a possible fighting chance. Nor would I say we would summarily jail anyone unbalanced. Self control is something that we all must have, or any harmful whim becomes all too easy to execute. I would think that brain chemistry is but one facet of the killer, but I merely speculate, and advocate finding out to a better degree. Science may lead the way.

There are so many ways to commit violence, we can not control them all.

Self control is a simplistic fantasy. Brain chemistry determines what you think and what you do. Any time that brain chemistry is modified, whether with chemicals like alcohol, genetics, damage or disease, actions can change.

This can be verified by anyone taking a mood altering drug, and has been verified through testing. We are not separate from our brain chemistry.

500 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:26:02pm

re: #497 Varek Raith

That deserves a punishment spanking!

501 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:26:24pm

re: #487 Varek Raith

You said me, right?
Right?

Nope, and your Ion Cannons are worthless. That is unless you have Jason's skills.

502 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:26:32pm

re: #499 b_sharp

I completely disagree, respectfully.

503 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:27:17pm

re: #501 Bubblehead II

Nope, and your Ion Cannons are worthless. That is unless you have Jason's skills.

We'll see about that!

504 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:27:20pm

re: #499 b_sharp

So why can we not simply sample a persons brain and predict their actions? Because of two things IMHO, one is that we are more than our chemicals, and two much of this is still poorly understood.

505 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:27:41pm

re: #489 b_sharp

Not intentionally.

The number of pedestrians and the number of cars active at any one given time makes the probability of an accidental death fairly high.

The number of deaths per shot of a firearm is likely much higher than the number of deaths per vehicle hour/minute/second/km.

Actually, I'm not sure that is right. I imagine the vast majority of rounds fired are in target practice. The number of times someone fires aiming to kill a person is really small, even for members of the military.

506 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:29:36pm

re: #499 b_sharp

Self control is a simplistic fantasy. Brain chemistry determines what you think and what you do. Any time that brain chemistry is modified, whether with chemicals like alcohol, genetics, damage or disease, actions can change.

This can be verified by anyone taking a mood altering drug, and has been verified through testing. We are not separate from our brain chemistry.

In light of this conversation, the brain tumor of the Texas tower shooter is apropos.

507 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:30:25pm

re: #498 Dancing along the light of day

Being aware of guns, and knowing how to use them DOES NOT mean you will abuse them.

Exactly. I got seriously annoyed when the Chicago Sun-Times criticized a 'gun turn-in' event for having raised money from contributions, some of which was used to buy .22 rifles for a youth summer camp. i read that and thought: "Actually, teaching a boy to shoot at a summer camp is a good idea. Teach proper techniques for shooting, the importance of proper gun handling and responsibility owning or using a firearm entails. That can help turn an otherwise at-risk boy into a self-disciplined man."

Just my two cents.

508 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:30:40pm

re: #503 Varek Raith

We'll see about that!

Jaina did. Next!

509 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:30:44pm

I'm confused.
Are we now advocating for very extensive psychological screening for gun ownership?

510 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:32:37pm

re: #509 Varek Raith

I am not.

511 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:33:25pm

re: #501 Bubblehead II

Nope, and your Ion Cannons are worthless. That is unless you have Jason's skills.

Varek's Superlaser isn't worthless though. He's got one mounted on the bow of hi.. [DF stops, knowing there is no more need for words. The medium-sized moon BHII was on has been blown apart by Varek's Superlaser.]

/geekage in progress.

512 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:33:35pm

re: #509 Varek Raith

Not what I'm saying. I think we are far to poor at finding out what makes that killer or not difference. Again I must mention that this is the very topic of Wormhole tonight. The latest research is fascinating, about how people can and do have the "killer" genetic traits. Yet do not become killers or abusers. All this is in it's infancy. I say lets advance that knowledge and be loyal to the facts.

513 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:33:57pm

re: #482 Gus

Don't focus wholly on the material. That's part of my point.

Granted, guns are a tool. But tools have inherent efficiencies in doing the job they were designed for. When it comes to killing, a derringer is inefficient in killing multiple people when compared to an AR-15. We will never stop highly intelligent, mentally unstable people from getting around some of the limitations of lower efficiency weapons but limiting them to those weapons will reduce the number of casualties.

BTW, I'm a gun owner and do not think banning things like rifles has any merit, but I'm also a bow owner, I have several compound bows. The difference in efficiency is really apparent when you compare those two killing tools.

514 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:34:05pm

re: #509 Varek Raith

I'm confused.
Are we now advocating for very extensive psychological screening for gun ownership?

I got lost on what the royal "we" was advocating.

Drink!

515 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:35:23pm

re: #513 b_sharp

Granted, guns are a tool. But tools have inherent efficiencies in doing the job they were designed for. When it comes to killing, a derringer is inefficient in killing multiple people when compared to an AR-15. We will never stop highly intelligent, mentally unstable people from getting around some of the limitations of lower efficiency weapons but limiting them to those weapons will reduce the number of casualties.

BTW, I'm a gun owner and do not think banning things like rifles has any merit, but I'm also a bow owner, I have several compound bows. The difference in efficiency is really apparent when you compare those two killing tools.

I was backpacking with my sister once and we ran into this bow hunter. He seemed pretty cool. The whole time though it was pretty funny. He wouldn't stop making fun out of rifle hunting. We kind of expected that.

516 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:35:29pm

re: #514 Gus

I got lost on what the royal "we" was advocating.

Drink!

Oh please.
You know we wish to rule the universe.

517 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:35:43pm

re: #490 Daniel Ballard

And yet gun accidents are fuel for the anti gun engine.

Of course. The number of deaths and injuries per use in guns is much higher than with cars. You may have misread my comment.

518 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:36:33pm

re: #516 Varek Raith

Oh please.
You know we wish to rule the universe.

I gave up on ruling the universe when I turned 30.

519 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:37:01pm

re: #493 uncah91

That the discussion around gun control that we are having doesn't really get to the root of the problem. Why huff and puff at assault rifles and extended clips when banning those wouldn't have helped?

In this last case, it would have helped.

520 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:37:10pm

re: #518 Gus

I gave up on ruling the universe when I turned 30.

Yes, but you're not a Sith.

521 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:38:33pm

re: #518 Gus

I gave up on ruling the universe when I turned 30.

You wish to merely yell at those to get off the lawn?
:P

523 austin_blue  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:38:57pm

re: #491 Dark_Falcon

What about long ranges or people who are learning?

Then they have plenty of time to reload their weapons, don't they?

524 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:39:20pm

re: #521 Varek Raith

You wish to merely yell at those to get off the lawn?
:P

You bet. I will do that. ;)

525 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:40:08pm
526 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:40:50pm

re: #523 austin_blue

Then they have plenty of time to reload their weapons, don't they?

Your line was broader than that, Austin. You seemed to make the case against said person owning the rifle they were learning to use at all.

527 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:41:14pm

Well. This summer wasn't so hot either other than the temperature. My residential and commercial building barometer is still in the fucking sucks range.

528 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:41:39pm
529 uncah91  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:42:27pm

re: #519 b_sharp

In this last case, it would have helped.

Why do you think that? He had an AR 15 with an extended clip, but it jammed. Now if we could mandate everything down to 3 shots, that certainly could make a difference. But a Glock with 13 rounds isnt really going to do less damage in a crowded theater than an AR 15.

530 Mich-again  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:42:59pm

The NRA's message is essentially this "Its worth it to put up with an occasional mass murderer on a rampage in order to keep our gun rights."

They go on and on about how any more laws would be useless deterring criminals from using guns, but on the other hand they aren't willing to give law enforcement more tools or access to data to try to preempt attacks. Its all fed by the wild conspiracy theory coded right into their DNA that any minute the president just might ban all guns and send SWAT teams door to door across the USA to confiscate all the guns and ammo.

So to prevent our rights from being trampled we'll just have to put up with an occasional outbreak of mass murder comitted by some looney tunes who should have not been able to amass an arsenal in the first place.

531 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:43:08pm

re: #496 Gus

I'm trying to be realistic and learn to get along. I live in a strongly Amendment 2 and pro-gun society. My dad used to bring the 12 gauge and the Mauser along in the motorhome. We drove clear across from NJ to Wyoming with those two and my dad slept with the shotgun. I knew how to fire the Mauser. My liberal woman friend bought a 9 mil. for self protection. My neighbor the former Marine pro-Obama friend was a gun nut. My other neighbor's dad was a gun inventor. He had two handguns in his house and a disassembled AR-15. Place I'm at now has a rifle somewhere. I used to shoot mostly a BB gun in the backyard as a kid. But the point is I'm just cruising along with the world as it is and not as it probably should be.

I in large part agree with you, banning guns isn't necessarily a solution, but I also think making it extremely difficult to acquire the hyper-efficient weapons would reduce incidents like Aurora. Notice I said reduce, not eliminate. I also agree with Daniel to some degree, but I recognize that determining insane intent is incredibly difficult and ethically complicated so I look to the simpler proposition of gun controls first.

532 Varek Raith  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:43:12pm

re: #528 Dark_Falcon

There's a sucker born ever minute.

The cable market is the silliest racket I've seen.
XD

533 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:43:25pm

re: #519 b_sharp

Lethal tool selection (gun, bomb, airliner) is a variable. The path of least resistance applies. The constant is the desire to kill on a major scale by that miniscule % of humanity. So I would say take the 2 pronged approach. Regulate in a way that most impacts the killers, and do the R&D to learn how to reduce the constant factor.

534 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:46:31pm

re: #498 Dancing along the light of day

Being aware of guns, and knowing how to use them DOES NOT mean you will abuse them.

Of course it doesn't, but I don't think anybody suggested that.

Like I said, gun violence (gun accidents are different) has degrees of severity that increase with efficiency but it takes human intent to pull the trigger. Looking to only one is too simplistic.

535 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:46:44pm

re: #531 b_sharp

I in large part agree with you, banning guns isn't necessarily a solution, but I also think making it extremely difficult to acquire the hyper-efficient weapons would reduce incidents like Aurora. Notice I said reduce, not eliminate. I also agree with Daniel to some degree, but I recognize that determining insane intent is incredibly difficult and ethically complicated so I look to the simpler proposition of gun controls first.

I think I said as much above.

If people want to start psychologically monitoring people than you're entering 1984 properties. Realistically it's more like an invasion of privacy. Freedom of association. Etc. Of course. The ACA can help provide, theoretically

536 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:47:07pm

re: #502 Dancing along the light of day

I completely disagree, respectfully.

With which part?

537 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:47:10pm

re: #532 Varek Raith

The cable market is the silliest racket I've seen.
XD

Don't get me started on Comcast. When I got my own place i made sure to get DirecTV and I've never been sorry I decided to do so.

538 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:47:55pm

I bet more toddlers are killed with unlocked guns every year than mass shootings. At least two fold. Even that. So you ask.

539 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:48:05pm

Night Lizards.

Varek, watch your your 6. Vestara is still out there. As well as Ship and they both want what you have. Must suck being a Sith.

540 austin_blue  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:49:34pm

re: #526 Dark_Falcon

Your line was broader than that, Austin. You seemed to make the case against said person owning the rifle they were learning to use at all.

Most commercial game rifles have, at most, a 5-shot mag. My new Rooshun rifle has a 5-shot mag. Shotguns in the field are limited to the rounds they can carry. The .45 has a 7-shot mag. Revolvers were almost always 5 or 6-shot mags.

Modern weapons with greater caps are almost always developed for the military. My H&K could be as effective a hunting weapon with a 5-round mag as a 20. A Beretta 9 mm would be as effective for home defense with 5 rounds as 17. Like I say, if you can't shoot something with 5-7 rounds, you should never pick up, own, or fire a weapon.

541 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:49:49pm

All I can make of this is that Mitt believes that once Holmes is found insane, it will have been retroactively illegal for him to purchase firearms.

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

542 austin_blue  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:51:29pm

re: #541 SanFranciscoZionist

All I can make of this is that Mitt believes that once Holmes is found insane, it will have been retroactively illegal for him to purchase firearms.

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

Oh, you clever boots!

543 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:52:34pm

re: #536 b_sharp

I don't think we need to verify or be in charge of others brain chemistry.

544 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:52:48pm

I'm just comfortable in knowing that the government can fix this.

545 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:53:05pm

The problem with guns in America is a certain attitude that exists in America. Far too many people purchase guns with the anticipation that one day they will have to use it. The really almost seem to want to have to use it one day. If that's your attitude, you are more likely to 'have' to use a gun than not. It's called the "I wish a motherfucker would......." mentality. I'm not saying this is what causes mass shootings, but the shit that goes down between young males is almost entirely rooted in that attitude. I think most of the old white guys that make up the NRA have the "I wish a motherfucker would attitude" as well, but they get SYG laws to keep them out of jail in the event that a motherfucker does.

546 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:53:36pm

re: #504 Daniel Ballard

So why can we not simply sample a persons brain and predict their actions? Because of two things IMHO, one is that we are more than our chemicals, and two much of this is still poorly understood.

The brain can't be sampled, it has too many components and too many states. When I say brain chemistry I'm including things like neurons, dendrites, synapses, brain produced chemicals/hormones, body produced hormones that affect the brain, number of connections and the electrical activity produced.

You are right, this is not well understood because of the complexity, but what is understood is that introduced chemicals or induced electrical impulses change the thoughts that reach consciousness.

547 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:53:58pm

re: #506 uncah91

In light of this conversation, the brain tumor of the Texas tower shooter is apropos.

That was my first observation.

548 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:54:45pm

re: #509 Varek Raith

I'm confused.
Are we now advocating for very extensive psychological screening for gun ownership?

That's the ethical difficulty I mentioned previously.

549 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:56:12pm

re: #515 Gus

I was backpacking with my sister once and we ran into this bow hunter. He seemed pretty cool. The whole time though it was pretty funny. He wouldn't stop making fun out of rifle hunting. We kind of expected that.

I can see that. Bow hunters are kind of arrogant in that manner.

551 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:58:30pm

re: #529 uncah91

Why do you think that? He had an AR 15 with an extended clip, but it jammed. Now if we could mandate everything down to 3 shots, that certainly could make a difference. But a Glock with 13 rounds isnt really going to do less damage in a crowded theater than AR 15.

How many shots did he fire with the AR 15 and how many with the Glock?

552 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:59:15pm

re: #549 b_sharp

I can see that. Bow hunters are kind of arrogant in that manner.

Oh, I think everyone is arrogant.

553 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 8:59:36pm

re: #551 b_sharp

How many shots did he fire with the AR 15 and how many with the Glock?

I believe the AR-15 jammed. Had it not, the casualties would have been doubled.

554 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 9:01:04pm

re: #533 Daniel Ballard

Lethal tool selection (gun, bomb, airliner) is a variable. The path of least resistance applies. The constant is the desire to kill on a major scale by that miniscule % of humanity. So I would say take the 2 pronged approach. Regulate in a way that most impacts the killers, and do the R&D to learn how to reduce the constant factor.

I agree. The R&D is going on right now as long as funding isn't cut off.

555 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 9:02:50pm

re: #543 Dancing along the light of day

I don't think we need to verify or be in charge of others brain chemistry.

That's not the same thing as saying it doesn't play a huge role in decision making. In my early teens, during a medical imaging procedure I was dosed with a contrast solution that I was highly allergic to, and I had a systemic reaction. My thoughts became so primitive and full of rage that for several minutes I was literally convinced that they were trying to kill me. I would have physically attacked and attempted to kill anybody in that room if they hadn't quickly overpowered me and put me in restraints.

556 b_sharp  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 9:06:30pm

re: #543 Dancing along the light of day

I don't think we need to verify or be in charge of others brain chemistry.

I didn't actually say either of those things. What I did say was that self control isn't a solution because it only functions with people with non-compromised brain chemistries.

557 austin_blue  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 9:08:45pm

re: #547 b_sharp

That was my first observation.

No tumor, just a rumor.

558 austin_blue  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 9:15:34pm

re: #506 uncah91

In light of this conversation, the brain tumor of the Texas tower shooter is apropos.

He lived at the time in a house six blocks south of me and shot his pregnant wife after going to his Mom's apartment and killing her. Then he cut off the barrel of his shotgun (confirmed by the mail carrier who was delivering the morning mail), packed up his guns and went to school.

559 Gus  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 9:20:22pm

It's good to see people who have their mind set on something. Myself, I see things as more fluid and organic.

560 freetoken  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 9:30:19pm

re: #559 Gus

Myself, I see things as more fluid and organic.

Well, so do I, but as I foresee a very dark future for civilization the fluid is, well, rather field-drab in color.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Why Did More Than 1,000 People Die After Police Subdued Them With Force That Isn’t Meant to Kill? An investigation led by The Associated Press has found that, over a decade, more than 1,000 people died after police subdued them through physical holds, stun guns, body blows and other force not intended to be lethal. More: Why ...
Cheechako
Yesterday
Views: 30 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
A Closer Look at the Eastman State Bar DecisionTaking a few minutes away from work things to read through the Eastman decision. As I'm sure many of you know, Eastman was my law school con law professor. I knew him pretty well because I was also running in ...
KGxvi
Yesterday
Views: 85 • Comments: 1 • Rating: 1