Obama Opens Strong Lead in Battleground States

Romney’s losing the swing voters
Politics • Views: 26,857

The latest Quinnipiac University/CBS News/New York Times poll of swing states shows that Barack Obama has a strong lead over Mitt Romney: Obama Hits 50% In Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Quinnipiac University/CBS News/New York Times Swing State Poll Finds.

President Barack Obama hits the magic 50 percent mark against Gov. Mitt Romney among likely voters in Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania, with wide support for his plan to hike federal income taxes on upper-income voters, according to a Quinnipiac University/ CBS News/New York Times Swing State Poll released today.

This is the first measure of likely voters in these swing states and cannot be compared with earlier surveys of registered voters. Matching Obama against Romney in each of these key states - no one has won the White House since 1960 without taking at least two of them - shows:

  • Florida: Obama edges Romney 51- 45 percent;
  • Ohio: Obama over Romney by a slim 50 - 44 percent;
  • Pennsylvania: Obama tops Romney 53 - 42 percent.

Jump to bottom

238 comments
1 erik_t  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:12:39am

Also highly relevant.

Among voters who pick Romney, 10 percent each in Florida and Ohio and 9 percent in Pennsylvania say they might change their mind. Among Obama supporters, 11 percent in Florida, 13 percent in Ohio and 15 percent in Pennsylvania say they might change their mind.

Romney doesn't have much to work with in terms of undecided voters.

2 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:13:11am

Its all a cunning ruse building up to his declaration of martial law.
/

3 erik_t  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:13:54am

re: #2 Kragar

Its all a cunning ruse building up to his declaration of martial law.
/

You mean Biden's declaration. Because Obama will be pretending to be dead, or whatever.

4 Petero1818  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:16:27am

Of these three states, I think Florida is the only one he stands a chance in, which is why he will choose Rubio as his VP pick. Ohio would have been in play but for the fact that Romney's willingness to let the auto industry go down would have cost Ohio many thousands of jobs.

5 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:16:40am

re: #3 erik_t

You mean Biden's declaration. Because Obama will be pretending to be dead, or whatever.

Who is the puppet and who is the puppeteer?

Youtube Video
6 garhighway  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:17:13am

Not a big lead, and there's a long way to go. So much can happen between here and there. If the economy worsens, it's a dead heat at best.

7 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:25:41am

The media is heavily invested in making the race seem as close as possible. I still think Obama has a lock on it.

8 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:26:16am

MS Congressional Candidate: Chick-opposing mayors 'need to be introduced to the Second Amendment'

In his letter, Williams said: "Let me make it clear, the CEO is being punished by government officials because he exercised his First Amendment right of free speech. The Constitution is very clear. When government restricts and punishes the people for exercising their First Amendment rights, then we are to default to the Second Amendment (right to keep and bear arms). These two mayors need to be introduced to the Second Amendment ASAP."

Williams also wrote: "The correct response to these mayors would be to send troops or whatever to remove these men from office, by whatever means is necessary."

9 efuseakay  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:27:41am

And to think. Obama really hasn't even begun to campaign.

10 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:28:29am

re: #8 Kragar

MS Congressional Candidate: Chick-opposing mayors 'need to be introduced to the Second Amendment'

WHAT?????

11 jc717  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:31:02am

When was the last time a Republican won without winning Ohio?

12 Schadenfreude 'r' Us  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:31:26am

After his performance on his foreign trip, why is any non-total-wingnut even thinking of voting for him?!

13 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:32:11am

re: #12 Someone Please Beam Me Up!

After his performance on his foreign trip, why is any non-total-wingnut even thinking of voting for him?!

Because Obama is a Muslim socialist from Kenya who hates baby Jesus.

14 Gus  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:33:24am
15 Bulworth  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:33:59am
Obama Opens Strong Lead in Battleground States

Then these states are going to make us all commit national suicide -- David Limbaugh.

16 Tumulus11  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:34:10am

. This November, women voters will be decisive.

'The President's strength among women is the dominant dynamic fueling his lead.'

17 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:34:24am

re: #8 Kragar

MS Congressional Candidate: Chick-opposing mayors 'need to be introduced to the Second Amendment'

Yeah, and why don't you lead the pack there Spanky? I'm sure the Chicage PD would show you how them practicing THEIR second amendment right at the range is better than your training at the batshit looney luncheon. I don't think you would even make it to Boston.

18 Bulworth  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:35:24am
When government restricts and punishes the people for exercising their First Amendment rights

Conservatives are so endearing when they confuse corporations and people. /

19 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:35:55am

re: #17 RayFerd

Yeah, and why don't you lead the pack there Spanky? I'm sure the Chicage PD would show you how them practicing THEIR second amendment right at the range is better than your training at the batshit looney luncheon. I don't think you would even make it to Boston.

The last thing we need is politicians talking about second amendment solutions. Stupid, stupid, stupid

20 Bulworth  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:37:42am
When government restricts and punishes the people for exercising their First Amendment rights

So states and localities cannot bar or otherwise impede upon the business functioning of abortion clinics anywhere, is that correct, wouldbe-congressperson? Because to do so would be to "Restrict" and "punish" said businesses' First Amendment rights, would it not?

21 Bulworth  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:40:50am
The Constitution is very clear. When government restricts and punishes the people for exercising their First Amendment rights, then we are to default to the Second Amendment

Oh, so now you're saying that the Bill of Rights applies to states and localities? I'm falling behind in my neo-Confederacy orthodoxy. //

22 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:40:52am

Growing support for Marriage Equality (polls, court cases, etc) all a mirage according to FRC

Promoting same-sex "marriage" may be seen as politically correct for Democrats at the national level, but it's a powder keg for office-holders down the ticket who live in mainstream communities. They understand, as we do, that this growing support for same-sex "marriage" is just a media mirage, aimed at deflating the opposition.

23 jaunte  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:40:56am

re: #14 Gus

[Embedded content]

Wait 'til they find out Leviticus prohibits eating rare steak.

24 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:41:30am

re: #23 jaunte

Wait 'til they find out Leviticus prohibits eating rare steak.

You're going to hell for wearin' those Godless man-made fibres!

25 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:42:07am

According to fucknut in MS, if a politician or business is against gay marriage, they should be introduced to the 2nd Amendment.

26 Talking Point Detective  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:42:36am

Nate Silver has Obama's chances of winning up to 69.0%

I'm afraid to believe that's true (too much of a expect the worst so I won't be disappointed kind of guy), and his numbers jump around a fair amount day in and day out - but he is pretty good at his job and 69% is pretty fucking awesome.

[Link: fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com...]

27 Bulworth  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:42:59am
mainstream communities

So if you live in New England, or California, or NY or Iowa or anywhere's other than a good old fashioned American community then you aren't a real American. /

28 darthstar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:43:01am

Hey voter, voter...swing, voter! Oh, wait...that should be hey batter, batter...


30 darthstar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:43:47am

re: #27 Bulworth

So if you live in New England, or California, or NY or Iowa or anywhere's other than a good old fashioned American community then you aren't a real American. /

Hey, California's full of swingers.

31 Interesting Times  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:44:31am

re: #24 Millicent Islam

You're going to hell for wearin' those Godless man-made fibres!

Philosoraptor sez...

32 jaunte  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:44:50am

Duck-n-Cover

Chick-fil-A caused a stir after its president publicly voiced opposition to gay marriage this week. Now, the fast-food chain is hoping to back out of the debate altogether.

The quick-service chicken chain said Thursday in a statement that "going forward, our intent is to leave the policy debate over same-sex marriage to the government and political arena."
[Link: www.latimes.com...]

33 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:45:35am

I really don't understand the uproar over Chik-Fil-A. The owner of the company stated his personal opinion (which is IMHO wrong, but he is entitled). Why is everyone in an uproar? He didn't state company policy? His Franchisees weren't asked their opinions?

Way blown out of proportion, IMHO. The Chik-Fil-A company is not the owner, two different entities here.

34 Bulworth  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:45:44am
They understand, as we do, that this growing support for same-sex "marriage" is just a media mirage, aimed at deflating the opposition.

Translation:

Jeebus, wtf has happened to people in the past couple of years?! We thought we buried teh gay in the Values Voters triumph of 2004.

35 GunstarGreen  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:47:30am

re: #8 Kragar

MS Congressional Candidate: Chick-opposing mayors 'need to be introduced to the Second Amendment'

Kinda wondering where this guy was when shit like this was going down. Or this.

It's all about Freedom™, which is very distinct from actual freedom.

36 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:48:26am

Mitt's campaign is a train-wreck. The GOP base only tolerates him, and barely that, because he is the Not-Obama. Barring some unforeseen event, like a European economic collapse or war in the Middle East causing fuel prices to double, Obama has it locked up.

This will actually be the final step in consolidating the Tea Party's hold on the GOP. Rather than blame their own lunacy, they will do what they did in '08, blame their candidate's relative (to them) moderation. Conspiracy theories will multiply, the last shreds of sanity will be hunted down and purged, Alex Jones and other guano peddlers will be wholly respected authorities, and acts of violence will increase.

37 jaunte  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:48:30am

re: #33 ggt

Chik-fil-A, as a company, donates a lot of money to anti-gay groups.
[Link: www.snopes.com...]

38 Bulworth  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:48:51am
Kinda wondering where this guy was when shit like this was going down. Or this.

Leading the teabag brigades in trying to ban Shariah Law! //

39 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:49:06am

re: #37 jaunte

Chik-fil-A, as a company, donates a lot of money to anti-gay groups.
[Link: www.snopes.com...]

ah!

40 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:49:06am

re: #33 ggt

I really don't understand the uproar over Chik-Fil-A. The owner of the company stated his personal opinion (which is IMHO wrong, but he is entitled). Why is everyone in an uproar? He didn't state company policy? His Franchisees weren't asked their opinions?

Way blown out of proportion, IMHO. The Chik-Fil-A company is not the owner, two different entities here.

Part of the issue is Chick-Fil-A as a corporation donating and directly sponsoring anti-gay groups and organizations around the country and violating the rights of gay and female employees.

41 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:50:21am

re: #33 ggt

I really don't understand the uproar over Chik-Fil-A. The owner of the company stated his personal opinion (which is IMHO wrong, but he is entitled). Why is everyone in an uproar? He didn't state company policy? His Franchisees weren't asked their opinions?

Way blown out of proportion, IMHO. The Chik-Fil-A company is not the owner, two different entities here.

I think what blew this over the top was Mayors and politicians started making comments about not allowing the stores in their cities because of the owner's statements. A very unwise move.

42 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:50:29am

re: #40 Kragar

Part of the issue is Chick-Fil-A as a corporation donating and directly sponsoring anti-gay groups and organizations around the country and violating the rights of gay and female employees.

Yes, that is not good.

43 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:51:27am

re: #29 Killgore Trout

Chik Fi A is a franchise.

There is no political/social litmus test to own an outlet.

44 Gus  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:52:20am

re: #33 ggt

I really don't understand the uproar over Chik-Fil-A gays and gay marriage...

FTFY

45 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:52:30am

re: #43 researchok

Chik Fi A is a franchise.

There is no political/social litmus test to own an outlet.

In theory, franchisee "recruiters" can filter potential candidates tho . . . .

46 wrenchwench  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:52:48am

re: #43 researchok

Chik Fi A is a franchise.

There is no political/social litmus test to own an outlet.

I read that there was. I read that they won't sell a franchise to an unmarried person.

47 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:53:04am

Chick-Fil-A Sued for Gender Discrimination

Former Chick-Fil-A employee Brenda Honeycutt is suing Chick-Fil-A for wrongful termination based on gender discrimination. According to a lawsuit which is circulating today on Twitter, on June 27, 2011, owner and operator of Duluth, GA’s Chick-Fil-A restaurants Jeff Howard terminated Honeycutt, whose employee performance was satisfactory-to-above satisfactory, so that she could be a “stay home mother.”

Honeycutt was terminated by Howard after meetings with restaurant management (during which she was not present), and was replaced by a male employee. The lawsuit cites a pattern of discrimination against female employees, who, after being terminated, were also replaced by male employees in Northern Georgia’s Chick-Fil-A restaurants.

48 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:53:17am

re: #44 Gus

FTFY

stop.

I just have an issue with boycotting stores that are not company owned unless you know the small business owner feels the same way.

49 jaunte  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:53:54am

re: #41 Killgore Trout

I think what blew this over the top was Mayors and politicians started making comments about not allowing the stores in their cities because of the owner's statements. A very unwise move.

Not something they could legally sustain, but it did get everyone's attention.

50 aagcobb  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:54:13am

re: #11 jc717

When was the last time a Republican won without winning Ohio?

That would be never.

51 iossarian  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:54:44am

re: #41 Killgore Trout

I think what blew this over the top was Mayors and politicians started making comments about not allowing the stores in their cities because of the owner's statements. A very unwise move.

Yeah, and when politicians started saying that they wouldn't tolerate segregated businesses in their towns, back in the day, that was an unwise move too.

52 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:54:54am

re: #33 ggt

I really don't understand the uproar over Chik-Fil-A. The owner of the company stated his personal opinion (which is IMHO wrong, but he is entitled). Why is everyone in an uproar? He didn't state company policy? His Franchisees weren't asked their opinions?

Way blown out of proportion, IMHO. The Chik-Fil-A company is not the owner, two different entities here.

From Mother Jones:

"We think there's a constitutional problem with discriminating against someone based on the content of their speech," says John Knight, director of the LGBT rights project at the Illinois branch of the American Civil Liberties Union. And Illinois law does not demand that restaurants have anti-discrimination policies in place—"It's a good idea for restaurants to have those policies," Knight says, but the law doesn't require it.

Even so, Illinois and Massachusetts residents are still protected. There are federal laws against discrimination in employment and public accommodation on the basis of race, sex, religion, and national origin. Federal anti-discrimination law does not yet protect people on the basis of sexual orientation, but Illinois state law does. So does Massachusetts state law.

Chick-fil-A should not be prevented from opening business because of the views of its leaders, or his donations to anti-gay causes. But gays and lesbians in Illinois and Massachusetts have the right to be free from discrimination in employment based on who they are. They also have a right to protest, boycott, and make Chick-fil-A's customers aware that their purchases fund anti-gay activism. If Chick-fil-A discriminates in hiring or refuses to serve customers on the basis of sexual orientation, the local authorities can and should hold him accountable.

53 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:55:27am

photos going around fb of white people lining up to go into Chik-fil-a.

54 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:55:27am

re: #48 ggt

stop.

I just have an issue with boycotting stores that are not company owned unless you know the small business owner feels the same way.

I agree. Punishing the innocent is daft.

55 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:55:35am

re: #43 researchok

Chik Fi A is a franchise.

There is no political/social litmus test to own an outlet.

Maybe, maybe not.

[Link: www.beliefnet.com...]

56 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:55:36am

The Burger King original chicken sandwich is superior in every way to the Chick-Fil-A chicken sandwich.

57 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:56:03am

re: #45 ggt

Is there any evidence of that?

The one franchisee mentioned is sponsoring a pro gay marriage event.

58 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:56:15am

re: #52 researchok

From Mother Jones:

wow

59 blueraven  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:56:24am

re: #26 Talking Point Detective

Nate Silver has Obama's chances of winning up to 69.0%

I'm afraid to believe that's true (too much of a expect the worst so I won't be disappointed kind of guy), and his numbers jump around a fair amount day in and day out - but he is pretty good at his job and 69% is pretty fucking awesome.

[Link: fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com...]

I am guessing once Nate includes this new poll the numbers will go up even more for Obama. Watch for updates later today.

60 jaunte  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:56:42am

We have to punish the innocent to save traditional marriage.

61 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:56:57am

re: #57 researchok

Is there any evidence of that?

The one franchisee mentioned is sponsoring a pro gay marriage event.

Evidence of what? One would have to interview every owner, I guess.

I, obviously, haven't followed this story as I should.

62 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:57:02am

re: #53 ggt

photos going around fb of white people lining up to go into Chik-fil-a.

I skimmed through the news reports, looks like turnout is pretty good.

63 Gus  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:57:05am

re: #41 Killgore Trout

I think what blew this over the top was Mayors and politicians started making comments about not allowing the stores in their cities because of the owner's statements. A very unwise move.

Yes. How dare they. They should know better and learn to give in to the needs of the tribe.

Irony.

64 iossarian  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:57:18am

re: #54 Daniel Ballard

I agree. Punishing the innocent is daft.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but franchise owners have some kind of financial relationship with the parent company, right?

This whole "they're independent stores so they have nothing to do with the CEO" argument is a red herring. What is he the CEO of, exactly, if all the franchises are "independent"?

65 erik_t  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:58:03am

re: #48 ggt

stop.

I just have an issue with boycotting stores that are not company owned unless you know the small business owner feels the same way.

Nobody forced them to franchise with Chick-Fil-A. They threw their buck into the wrong hat, but life's a bitch. Like hell corporate gets a cent of mine.

66 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:58:04am

re: #59 blueraven

I am guessing once Nate includes this new poll the numbers will go up even more for Obama. Watch for updates later today.

He emphasizes that this compaign season has been remarkably stable over the last couple months. Most changes are noise.

67 Gus  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:58:54am

Fainting for Chick-Fil-A. Step right up. Get your boneless chicken sandwich here. Don't need any teeth.

68 jaunte  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:00:04am

re: #65 erik_t

How Much Does a Chick-Fil-A Franchise Cost?
Got $5000 laying around? Then you can forget the burgers and throw your money down on a license to operate a Chick-Fil-A. But get in line. Chick-Fil-A only gives about 75 of the 10,000 applicants per year the right to operate a franchise, and along with this right comes strict stipulations. Your store will be closed on Sunday to give employees a day off to rest or worship. You will not own the property upon which the store sits, nor will you be allowed to select your location. Investment information is conspicuously missing from the company’s website as well as the net, but good credit with a proven business track record will get you considered for a franchise. You will have to surrender a whopping 50% of the monthly net profits.[Link: franchises.about.com...]

69 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:00:25am

re: #64 iossarian

If there were any hint of that kind of collusion/pressure, the lawsuits would have been flying a long time ago.

70 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:00:38am

re: #67 Gus

LOL

71 erik_t  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:01:36am

re: #68 jaunte

Pity decremented.

72 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:01:42am

Chick-fil-A Appreciation Day brings out huge crowds in Madison County

Some stores are already reporting record sales along with the huge crowds. More than 100 people formed long lines at the fast-food store in Parkway Place Mall, and Madison police issued an advisory at 12:12 p.m. telling people to stay away from the area of the restaurant at 7885 U.S. 72.

Harold Chancellor of Madison said he waited 45 minutes in a traffic jam on U.S. 72 only to get waved on by police when he got to the entrance to the Madison restaurant because the parking lot was already overflowing. People were walking to the restaurant from all directions, he said.

73 Gus  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:02:47am

So the president of Chick-Fil-A is opposed to gay marriage and supports anti-gay groups. What's the big deal? It's his 1st Amendment rights! I'm sure we'd all feel the same if he was opposed to interracial marriages and supported anti-black groups.

//

74 erik_t  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:02:48am

re: #72 Killgore Trout

Chick-fil-A Appreciation Day brings out huge crowds in Madison County

Alabama gonna Alabama.

75 aagcobb  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:02:50am

re: #66 Decatur Deb

He emphasizes that this compaign season has been remarkably stable over the last couple months. Most changes are noise.

I'm just hoping that there isn't a European meltdown which worsens the US economy before the election. Obama's lead is small, and could disappear quickly if conditions worsen.

76 Gus  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:03:28am

re: #74 erik_t

Alabama gonna Alabama.

It's the Alabama culture.

77 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:04:11am

re: #72 Killgore Trout

That is their right.

And for the record, I believe Cathy is an ass.

He should have kept his mouth shut. Sometimes less is more.

78 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:04:34am

re: #75 aagcobb

I'm just hoping that there isn't a European meltdown which worsens the US economy before the election. Obama's lead is small, and could disappear quickly if conditions worsen.

He's vulnerable to real-world catastrophe and the threat of voter suppression/low turnout. Still planning to support GOTV in Florida.

79 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:05:50am

re: #74 erik_t

Alabama gonna Alabama.

That's Huntsville, the educated, sophisticated part of our fair and sovereign state.

80 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:06:08am

re: #47 Kragar

Chick-Fil-A Sued for Gender Discrimination

It's the christian thing to do. Gals are kinda icky in their minds anyway.

81 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:06:11am

re: #73 Gus

So the president of Chick-Fil-A is opposed to gay marriage and supports anti-gay groups. What's the big deal? It's his 1st Amendment rights! I'm sure we'd all feel the same if he was opposed to interracial marriages and supported anti-black groups.

//

..or drew cartoons offending islam or made a comedy lampooning Christ or a musical making fun of Mormons. Yes, I support everyone's right to free speech even when I disagree with them.

82 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:06:41am

CFA has every right to be hate filled ignorant morons.

I have every right to tell everyone I think they are hate filled ignorant morons and choose not to give them my money for their product.

83 Gus  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:06:42am

re: #81 Killgore Trout

..or drew cartoons offending islam or made a comedy lampooning Christ or a musical making fun of Mormons. Yes, I support everyone's right to free speech even when I disagree with them.

Oops. Right. Islam. I forgot about Islam.

84 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:06:44am

re: #80 RayFerd

And that kind of lawsuit has hit many companies.

85 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:07:18am

re: #81 Killgore Trout

..or drew cartoons offending islam or made a comedy lampooning Christ or a musical making fun of Mormons. Yes, I support everyone's right to free speech even when I disagree with them.

I support everyone's right to free speech and their right to suffer for it.

86 erik_t  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:07:33am

re: #84 researchok

And that kind of lawsuit has hit many companies.

Do you think that a corporate culture like Chick-Fil-A's might have a slight effect on the frequency of this sort of discrimination? Just maybe? Just a little bit?

87 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:08:22am

re: #86 erik_t

I could ask you the same thing about Walmart

88 Gus  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:08:57am

re: #85 Decatur Deb

I support everyone's right to free speech and their right to suffer for it.

Making this a free speech issue is largely a ruse. This isn't a free speech issue.

89 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:10:01am

re: #88 Gus

Making this a free speech issue is largely a ruse. This isn't a free speech issue.

The boycotts aren't, but the suggestion that local governments should keep them out crosses the line.

90 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:10:19am

I am living in a Kafkaesque farce. Here in Texas, people are falling over themselves to show their solidarity with---what? A franchise chicken joint, that's what. Even more absurdly, they are doing this for solemnly intoned traditional religious reasons.

91 blueraven  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:10:28am

re: #81 Killgore Trout

..or drew cartoons offending islam or made a comedy lampooning Christ or a musical making fun of Mormons. Yes, I support everyone's right to free speech even when I disagree with them.

Everyone? OWS?

92 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:10:59am

re: #90 Shiplord Kirel

I am living in a Kafkaesque farce. Here in Texas, people are falling over themselves to show their solidarity with---what? A franchise chicken joint, that's what. Even more absurdly, they are doing this for solemnly intoned traditional religious reasons.

Honey mustard sauce is a sacrament.

93 iossarian  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:11:00am

re: #88 Gus

Making this a free speech issue is largely a ruse. This isn't a free speech issue.

Exactly. Same bullshit argument as always: it's fine for the rich guy to spend his money and fuck up other people's lives, but when you get organized to stop giving him the money he needs to do that, it's BAD and UNAMERICAN.

94 Gus  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:11:17am

From Chick-fil-A: 5 Reasons It Isn't What You Think

5) Chick-fil-A is just exercising their First Amendment rights by running a business based on the Bible, right? Wrong. There's a line between the "free exercise of religion" and violating the law. If Chick-fil-A is violating the law by discriminating against gay people, or by firing women so that they can be "stay home" moms, as one woman who is suing Chick-fil-A says in court documents, that's not exercising religious expression or free speech, and that's not a First Amendment issue. It may be, if the court decides, a violation of the law.

95 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:12:31am

re: #64 iossarian

The financial relationship is by degree. Yes, franchises pay and send money. But they are also small business "owners" of their franchise with lives to live and families to support.

I'm getting more uncomfortable with the new apparent requirement that all must agree or face punishment. I believe there is room to disagree, along with a requirement to obey any and all anti discrimination laws.

96 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:12:57am

re: #88 Gus

What distinguishes this from a free speech issue?

It is a despicable position to stake out but why is it different?

He is voicing an opinion after all.

97 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:13:30am

re: #91 blueraven

Everyone? OWS?

Yes, as long as they stay within the law.

98 SpaceJesus  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:13:54am

The Chic-Fil-A by my office is always busy. Looks about the same?

I'm having bulgogi for lunch, to hell with your waffle fries

99 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:14:02am

re: #94 Gus

If Chick-fil-A is violating the law by discriminating against gay people, or by firing women so that they can be "stay home" moms, as one woman who is suing Chick-fil-A says in court documents, that's not exercising religious expression or free speech, and that's not a First Amendment issue. It may be, if the court decides, a violation of the law.

That is one big 'If'.

100 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:14:35am

I get so tired of the Rightwinguts refusal to understand that it isn't so much WHAT you say, but HOW you say it! Their outright refusal to understand that the political environment of any given time will be how your words are interpreted, regardless of how they were intended.

I've tried to explain this to some of the people in my life. They refuse to accept it.

101 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:14:44am

re: #96 researchok

What distinguishes this from a free speech issue?

It is a despicable position to stake out but why is it different?

He is voicing an opinion after all.

So are the boycotters. Money is speech. Corporations are persons. Chickens are fingers.

102 iossarian  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:14:57am

re: #95 Daniel Ballard

The financial relationship is by degree. Yes, franchises pay and send money. But they are also small business "owners" of their franchise with lives to live and families to support.

I'm getting more uncomfortable with the new apparent requirement that all must agree or face punishment. I believe there is room to disagree, along with a requirement to obey any and all anti discrimination laws.

The problem is that people want the benefits of unfettered capitalism with none of the downsides.

You can't buy into the franchise/pyramid system of wealth creation one minute and then get upset that it turns around and bites you in the ass, because that system has been fucking over your employees and the rest of the non-capitalist class for years. Welcome to the club.

103 erik_t  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:15:19am

re: #95 Daniel Ballard

The financial relationship is by degree. Yes, franchises pay and send money. But they are also small business "owners" of their franchise with lives to live and families to support.

I'm getting more uncomfortable with the new apparent requirement that all must agree or face punishment. I believe there is room to disagree, along with a requirement to obey any and all anti discrimination laws.

Excuse me? Punishment?

104 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:15:38am

re: #98 SpaceJesus

The Chic-Fil-A by my office is always busy. Looks about the same?

I'm having bulgogi for lunch, to hell with your waffle fries

Thought you were an Obama man. That should be ka-ogi.

105 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:16:10am

This attempt by the Religious Right to degrade the Establishment Clause by using the 1st Amendment is blatant and stupid. They will never win it.

106 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:17:12am

re: #100 ggt

Three pointer

107 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:17:21am

re: #103 erik_t

Excuse me? Punishment?

Choosing to eat at Burger King or Wendy's punishes the Chick-Fil-A owner unfairly.

108 iossarian  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:17:37am

It's hilarious that a group of people who literally exhort the public, via the main advertising tagline of their company, to "consume more of our product", are invoking "freedom of speech" to prevent people from telling each other to consume less of their product.

109 CuriousLurker  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:17:49am

re: #81 Killgore Trout

..or drew cartoons offending islam or made a comedy lampooning Christ or a musical making fun of Mormons. Yes, I support everyone's right to free speech even when I disagree with them.

Me too! I also 100% support that other First Amendment right of freedom of assembly/association:

Freedom of assembly, sometimes used interchangeably with the freedom of association, is the individual right to come together and collectively express, promote, pursue and defend common interests. The right to freedom of association is recognized as a human right, political right, and civil liberty.

Freedom of assembly and freedom of association may be used to distinguish between the freedom to assemble in public places and the freedom of joining an association. Freedom of assembly is often used in the context of the right to protest, while freedom of association is used in the context of labor rights and the Constitution of the United States, is interpreted to mean both the freedom to assemble and the freedom to join an association.

The United States Constitution explicitly provides for 'the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances'" in the First Amendment.

110 blueraven  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:17:53am

re: #97 Killgore Trout

Yes, as long as they stay within the law.

Were they breaking the law when they were pepper sprayed at UC? An act that you supported, or were they practicing free speech?

111 darthstar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:18:10am
112 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:19:34am

re: #102 iossarian

I strongly disagree with your characterization of franchises as pyramid schemes. If your logic were to prevail we would have to close all the franchises that make money and pay minimum wage to part time clerks. All those fast food places, all the circle k and 7-11 locations.

That's just an extreme view that does run counter to peoples ability to get jobs, get promoted and buy a business.

113 abolitionist  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:20:07am

re: #96 researchok

What distinguishes this from a free speech issue?

It is a despicable position to stake out but why is it different?

He is voicing an opinion after all.

For a CEO, I think it can be exceedingly difficult to demonstrate any practical distinction between his/her publicly-expressed opinions versus company policy.

114 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:20:25am

re: #110 blueraven

Were they breaking the law when they were pepper sprayed at UC? An act that you supported, or were they practicing free speech?

I saw somewhere that the pepper spray cop was no longer on the force.

115 Gus  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:20:28am

re: #99 researchok

If Chick-fil-A is violating the law by discriminating against gay people, or by firing women so that they can be "stay home" moms, as one woman who is suing Chick-fil-A says in court documents, that's not exercising religious expression or free speech, and that's not a First Amendment issue. It may be, if the court decides, a violation of the law.

That is one big 'If'.

If they have a right than we have a right.

116 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:20:32am

re: #110 blueraven

Were they breaking the law when they were pepper sprayed at UC? An act that you supported, or were they practicing free speech?

I'd have to look back at the official investigation but I seem to recall that although the protesters were interfering with an arrest the pepper spray was deemed unnecessary.

117 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:20:47am

AS WE SPEAK!

Protesters outside a Chik Fil-A 3 blocks from my house

Oh noes, the international ACORN conspiracy has extended its tentacles almost to my doorstep. Must be the BilderBURGERS behind it.

119 Gus  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:21:25am

Fuck Chick-fil-A and I don't give a rats ass about that one Chick-fil-A that sponsoring gay pride.

120 blueraven  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:21:36am

re: #116 Killgore Trout

I'd have to look back at the official investigation but I seem to recall that although the protesters were interfering with an arrest the pepper spray was deemed necessary.

LOL

121 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:22:07am

re: #113 abolitionist

So to be a CEO one must abandon their right to speak their beliefs for fear of reprisals not just against them, but all who have any relationship with them.

Sad really.

122 iossarian  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:22:18am

re: #112 Daniel Ballard

That's just an extreme view that does run counter to peoples ability to get jobs, get promoted and buy a business.

I'm not even going to bother with this argument. The US has terrible social mobility, and it's even going backwards in that measure. The assertion that American-style capitalism helps people get off the ground is ludicrous on its face.

123 engineer cat  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:22:20am

Obama Opens Strong

maybe zombie ronald reagan is finally slowing down

Texas Republicans Vote for Tea Party Crack

ok but i guess he ain't ded

124 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:22:22am

There are literally hundreds of fast food establishments in the city I live in.

I choose not to go to the ones associated with national hate movements.

125 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:22:26am

re: #120 blueraven

LOL

Oops, sorry that was a typo.
Unnecessary.

126 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:22:31am

re: #113 abolitionist

For a CEO, I think it can be exceedingly difficult to demonstrate any practical distinction between his/her publicly-expressed opinions versus company policy.

There comes a time in one's professional life, when the level of success removes the line between personal and professional. For some it is simply the career they choose. Doctors & Lawyers for example, tend to always remember they are doctors and lawyers even when talking with friends. They tend only to give professional opinions and keep their personal opinions to themselves. Corporate execs do the same.

Cathy should have known that.

127 Gus  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:22:36am

re: #116 Killgore Trout

I'd have to look back at the official investigation but I seem to recall that although the protesters were interfering with an arrest the pepper spray was deemed necessary.

So much for freedom of speech assembly.

128 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:22:49am

re: #118 jaunte

Pat Robertson Sticks up for Chick-fil-A, Says Gays Make People 'Feel like they are Unwelcome'

Brain damage, a terrible thing to see happening in real time.

129 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:23:20am

re: #121 Daniel Ballard

So to be a CEO one must abandon their right to speak their beliefs for fear of reprisals not just against them, but all who have any relationship with them.

Sad really.

It is the nature of success.

130 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:23:48am

re: #121 Daniel Ballard

So to be a CEO one must abandon their right to speak their beliefs for fear of reprisals not just against them, but all who have any relationship with them.

Sad really.

I'm sure a CEO that says, "Fuck you religious assholes" would fare much better.

131 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:23:55am

re: #121 Daniel Ballard

So to be a CEO one must abandon their right to speak their beliefs for fear of reprisals not just against them, but all who have any relationship with them.

Sad really.

If he weren't a CEO, his voice would not carry past his Kiwanis club. He used his business position to further his bigotry, and it bit him in the ass.

132 erik_t  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:24:12am

re: #121 Daniel Ballard

So to be a CEO one must abandon their right to speak their beliefs for fear of reprisals not just against them, but all who have any relationship with them.

Sad really.

He still has the right. I still have the right to disagree, and take my business elsewhere. What the fuck is it with people not understanding how rights work?

133 jaunte  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:24:17am

re: #128 RayFerd

'With friends like these, who needs protestors?'

134 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:24:28am

re: #115 Gus

I absolutely agree. And in fact, I support gay marriage and gay rights.

However, the moron expressed an opinion. CFA has no demonstrable record of discrimination- certainly no different than other major US corporate entities.

135 iossarian  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:24:46am

re: #121 Daniel Ballard

So to be a CEO one must abandon their right to speak their beliefs for fear of reprisals not just against them, but all who have any relationship with them.

Sad really.

Not really, they have other options, like being a social worker, or a nurse, or a teacher, or any of the many other poorly-paid but crucial jobs that are done by people every day, who don't get to wield political power due to sitting at the top of a wealth-extraction structure.

136 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:25:17am

re: #131 Decatur Deb

If he weren't a CEO, his voice would not carry past his Kiwanis club. He used his business position to further his bigotry, and it bit him in the ass.

Really, not just him, but everyone in his organization.

He is not a leader, a leader would have been cognizant of that.

As Obama said, he didn't achieve success alone.

137 efuseakay  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:25:27am

re: #20 Bulworth

So states and localities cannot bar or otherwise impede upon the business functioning of abortion clinics anywhere, is that correct, wouldbe-congressperson? Because to do so would be to "Restrict" and "punish" said businesses' First Amendment rights, would it not?

Well. Planned Parenthood does get federal funding. Even the nut bags know the difference. But your point is still valid.

138 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:25:35am

re: #134 researchok

I absolutely agree. And in fact, I support gay marriage and gay rights.

However, the moron expressed an opinion. CFA has no demonstrable record of discrimination- certainly no different than other major US corporate entities.

It does have a record of actively contributing money to anti-gay organizations across the country, including those sponsoring anti-gay legislation.

139 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:26:29am

re: #138 Kragar

It does have a record of actively contributing money to anti-gay organizations across the country, including those sponsoring anti-gay legislation.

The corporation does, or Cathy does?

I'm still confused on so much of this.

140 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:28:51am

re: #122 iossarian

Ludicrous?
Only to the most extreme critics unable to tell the difference between some or many flaws in a system, and total failure. Most of us start on low income jobs and grow from there. That fact has not disappeared.

141 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:28:54am

re: #139 ggt

You sked my question.

142 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:29:11am

re: #79 Decatur Deb

That's Huntsville, the educated, sophisticated part of our fair and sovereign state.

Hey, my son lives in Huntsville!

143 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:29:40am

re: #142 Learned Mother of Zion

Hey, my son lives in Huntsville!

Yankees.

144 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:29:47am

Please note this is from last year, so its not a new revelation:

Investigation Reveals Depth of Chick-Fil-A's Ties to Anti-Gay Causes

When two Missouri organizations, the Clayton Chamber of Commerce and FOCUS St. Louis, decided earlier this month to cancel a presentation by Chick-fil-A president Dan Cathy over his company's controversial affiliations, they made the right decision. Although Cathy has unequivocally denied being anti-LGBT and claimed that he and the company have "no agenda against anyone" and "will not champion any political agendas on marriage and family," Equality Matters research proves just the opposite. In fact, the company has strong, deep ties to anti-gay organizations like Focus on the Family and the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, and its charitable division has provided more than $1.1 million to organizations that deliver anti-LGBT messages and promote egregious practices like reparative therapy that seek to "free" people of being gay.

The matter grabbed headlines in January after a Pennsylvania Chick-fil-A restaurant sponsored a "traditional marriage" event by providing food to attendees of "The Art of Marriage: Getting to the Heart of God's Design." Cathy dismissed the controversy as a localized incident that was not indicative of the company's corporate culture. "In recent weeks, we have been accused of being anti-gay," Cathy said in a written statement. "We have no agenda against anyone. While my family and I believe in the Biblical definition of marriage, we love and respect anyone who disagrees."

Chick-fil-A runs 1,530 restaurants in 39 states and a company spokesperson said gross sales for 2010 will most likely top $3.5 billion, according to The New York Times.

Detailed findings at the link

145 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:30:40am

re: #141 researchok

You sked my question.

I what?

146 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:32:01am

re: #143 Decatur Deb

Yankees.

His wife is an Alabama girl, so can my granddaughter step into the crazy up to her knees?

147 iossarian  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:32:07am

re: #140 Daniel Ballard

Ludicrous?
Only to the most extreme critics unable to tell the difference between some or many flaws in a system, and total failure. Most of us start on low income jobs and grow from there. That fact has not disappeared.

By "us" do you mean the American people?

If so, a more accurate statement would be "most of us start on low income jobs (if employed at all) and remain in low income jobs, with steadily-diminishing benefits, until retirement".

The upwardly-mobile thing is a relatively small portion of the population.

148 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:32:43am
149 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:34:53am

re: #135 iossarian

Not really, they have other options, like being a social worker, or a nurse, or a teacher, or any of the many other poorly-paid but crucial jobs that are done by people every day, who don't get to wield political power due to sitting at the top of a wealth-extraction structure.

So just becoming being a CEO is bad? A CEO has some obligation to quit and become a social worker or teacher? I'm sorry that just reads like angry envy or something. Your premise is that there is no benefit to a corporation existing at all. "Wealth extraction structure" is what you call a profitable company? That is extreme.

150 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:35:27am

re: #146 Learned Mother of Zion

His wife is an Alabama girl, so can my granddaughter step into the crazy up to her knees?

We have Crazy in Alabama:

Youtube Video
151 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:36:23am

re: #144 Kragar

Chik Fil A is a private company. That is, the Cathy Family has the majority of shares.

They are using their own distributed profits.

Are Jewish, Muslim or Catholic business owners who support their own religious organizations also guilty of discrimination?

Can I say the Presbyterian Church is anti Semitic because of their positions on Israel?

152 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:37:39am

re: #145 ggt

Asked

153 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:37:48am

re: #147 iossarian

Poverty is at a record high, 33 million of us. And that is coming off a huge recession. The rest appear to be upwardly mobile to one degree or another. I think you have a valid point at heart, but have exaggerated wildly.

154 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:38:59am

re: #151 researchok

Chik Fil A is a private company. That is, the Cathy Family has the majority of shares.

They are using their own distributed profits.

Are Jewish, Muslim or Catholic business owners who support their own religious organizations also guilty of discrimination?

Can I say the Presbyterian Church is anti Semitic because of their positions on Israel?

It depends if the check is from the personal or business account . . .

155 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:39:19am

re: #151 researchok

Chik Fil A is a private company. That is, the Cathy Family has the majority of shares.

They are using their own distributed profits.

Are Jewish, Muslim or Catholic business owners who support their own religious organizations also guilty of discrimination?

Can I say the Presbyterian Church is anti Semitic because of their positions on Israel?

Supporting a religious group obligates one to actively seek to deny non-believers from being able to exercise their civil rights and beliefs?

156 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:39:41am

re: #151 researchok

Chik Fil A is a private company. That is, the Cathy Family has the majority of shares.

They are using their own distributed profits.

Are Jewish, Muslim or Catholic business owners who support their own religious organizations also guilty of discrimination?

Can I say the Presbyterian Church is anti Semitic because of their positions on Israel?

If I read Kragar's 144 correctly, they have a "charitable division", meaning they can divert profits tax-free to anti-LGBT organizations.

157 A Mom Anon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:39:57am

Meanwhile,in Outer Whiteystan aka west metro Atlanta..the Chick Fil A down the street from us is practically empty. I've been by it several times today and it's not even close to overflowing. So the media is picking and choosing which restaurants they're snapping pics of. No more traffic than normal around here today. If there would be any place where there would be some sort of Dan Cathy solidarity it would be here,trust me,so apparently most people don't give a rat's ass.

158 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:40:57am

re: #156 Decatur Deb

If I read Kragar's 144 correctly, they have a "charitable division", meaning they can divert profits tax-free to anti-LGBT organizations.

I guess if the charitable org has a 501(c)3, it is legal. . . ?

159 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:41:31am

re: #155 Kragar

Most religious institutions exclude members outside their own faith.

As is their right.

160 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:41:38am

I'm pretty sure that if one looked around, one could easily find a Christian charitable organization that isn't dedicated to promoting a anti-gay agenda.

161 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:41:55am

re: #156 Decatur Deb

As is their right

162 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:42:35am

re: #159 researchok

Most religious institutions exclude members outside their own faith.

As is their right.

Excluding doesn't mean you actively seek to stop other beliefs.

163 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:42:50am

re: #161 researchok

As is their right

Yup, but not with my money.

164 iossarian  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:43:34am

re: #149 Daniel Ballard

So just becoming being a CEO is bad? A CEO has some obligation to quit and become a social worker or teacher? I'm sorry that just reads like angry envy or something. Your premise is that there is no benefit to a corporation existing at all. "Wealth extraction structure" is what you call a profitable company? That is extreme.

I don't know why you're invested in characterizing a critical view of American capitalism as "extreme". My only point is that the system that has evolved over the past 30 years in the US leads to poor social mobility, entrenched and increasing poverty and overwork among a wide swathe of the population, and a small group of people who wield political power through their ability to extract wealth by being at the top of one of the pyramid structures that corporations tend to assume.

Nothing in this statement says that there is nothing good about having corporate organizations, only that the way that the US allows them to operate leads to some severely detrimental consequences to a large number of people.

Finally, if you are going to accept such a system on the grounds of "freedom of speech" (which after all was the justification for Citizens United, the capstone, if you will, of 21st century US corporatism), it then seems perverse in the extreme to complain that some of the people outside the elite might want to exercise a little of that freedom too.

PS: I manage to mostly avoid feelings of anger and envy myself because I am relatively successful within the system as it stands. However I am also intelligent enough to realize that the system is unstable and is leading to ever-widening inequality, which apart from anything else is likely to leave my family members and friends with fewer and fewer opportunities to thrive. I'm sure we all know people who are slowly being crushed by the system, at least, I certainly do.

165 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:44:40am

re: #163 Decatur Deb

Yup, but not with my money.

Bigot. Why are you punishing them?
///

166 iossarian  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:44:51am

re: #153 Daniel Ballard

Poverty is at a record high, 33 million of us. And that is coming off a huge recession. The rest appear to be upwardly mobile to one degree or another. I think you have a valid point at heart, but have exaggerated wildly.

Evidence for the bolded statement please. I think most economists would disagree with you - the middle class has gone backwards in the US over the past 30 years.

167 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:45:06am

re: #160 Kragar

But they also have the right to direct their charity where they please- even a church that bans gay or religious intermarriage.

Unless you are now suggesting that churches and other religious institutions be forced to change their doctrines.

Truth be told, democracy is a messy business.

And as a point of fact, I share many, if not all of your beliefs as they relate to marriage and discrimination.

168 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:45:43am

re: #162 Kragar

In some- many in fact- cases, it does.

169 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:46:17am

re: #167 researchok

But they also have the right to direct their charity where they please- even a church that bans gay or religious intermarriage.

Unless you are now suggesting that churches and other religious institutions be forced to change their doctrines.

Truth be told, democracy is a messy business.

And as a point 9f fact, I share many, if not all of your beliefs as they relate to marriage and discrimination.

Well, churches cannot participate in animal sacrifice --by law.
Can they discriminate in inter-racial marriage?

170 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:47:50am

re: #163 Decatur Deb

It isn't your money- it is Cathy's money.

171 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:48:32am

re: #170 researchok

It isn't your money- it is Cathy's money.

Not if I boycott his greasy chicken.

172 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:49:19am

re: #169 ggt

Yes, they can, as well as religious intermarriage, gay marriage, etc.

They are private institutions.

That is a big reason as to why their are secular, civil marriages

173 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:49:30am

re: #167 researchok

But they also have the right to direct their charity where they please- even a church that bans gay or religious intermarriage.

Unless you are now suggesting that churches and other religious institutions be forced to change their doctrines.

Truth be told, democracy is a messy business.

And as a point 9f fact, I share many, if not all of your beliefs as they relate to marriage and discrimination.

Where did I suggest that?

They have every right to be fucking morons.

I have every right to call them fucking morons, those who do business with them fucking morons, and choose to spend my money at businesses that don't support their hate fueled idiocy.

The idea that "small business owner" is being unfairly punished because of their association is moronic. They chose to associate with a company whose history is well established. There are hundreds of other small business owners who did not make that mistake. I will take my business to them.

174 wrenchwench  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:50:21am

re: #167 researchok

But they also have the right to direct their charity where they please- even a church that bans gay or religious intermarriage.

Unless you are now suggesting that churches and other religious institutions be forced to change their doctrines.

Truth be told, democracy is a messy business.

And as a point 9f fact, I share many, if not all of your beliefs as they relate to marriage and discrimination.

People have a right to spend their money with businesses that DON"T direct their profits to promote bigotry and hatred. And they also have the right to share public information about where business owners make their donations. And they have the right to peaceably assemble in a picket line, and to distribute information on the internet and by other means.

I'm going to do that right now.

Fuck Chick Fil A. Don't eat there. They promote hatred. (The individual franchise owner participates in this when they send half their profits to the headquarters. I don't think they should be supported in that.)

175 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:50:38am

re: #171 Decatur Deb

And that is your right.

I'm on the Mother Jones program

176 wrenchwench  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:51:25am

re: #173 Kragar

You're making me feel redundant.

177 Interesting Times  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:52:25am
178 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:52:42am

re: #175 researchok

And that is your right.

I'm on the Mother Jones program

I agree that governments should not be blocking them. OTOH, they should go broke.

179 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:52:58am

re: #173 Kragar

The idea that "small business owner" is being unfairly punished because of their association is moronic. They chose to associate with a company whose history is well established. There are hundreds of other small business owners who did not make that mistake. I will take my business to them.

You have to be careful there.

Henry Ford was a notorious anti Semite.

Simply buying a product to resell dis not make every Ford franchisee an anti Semite.

180 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:53:44am

re: #147 iossarian

The upwardly-mobile thing is a relatively small portion of the population.

Got links to those stats?

181 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:54:15am

re: #176 wrenchwench

You're making me feel redundant.

Said she of the two 'W's.

//

182 Interesting Times  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:54:17am

re: #179 researchok

You have to be careful there.

Henry Ford was a notorious anti Semite.

As opposed to the Chick-fil-A CEO, who is a theocratic bigot who bankrolls bigot causes.

183 iossarian  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:54:27am

re: #175 researchok

And that is your right.

I'm on the Mother Jones program

That article is more or less summed up by one sentence in it:

It's only by protecting the rights of those whose views we find odious that we can hope to secure them for ourselves.

This is a noble sentiment and one often expressed in these arguments. It's worth remembering, therefore, that it is an argument that breaks down at key points, when you end up defending the right of someone to directly oppress you.

184 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:54:48am

re: #174 wrenchwench

No argument here

185 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:55:19am

re: #182 Interesting Times

Ford also bankrolled bigotry

186 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:55:51am

re: #179 researchok

You have to be careful there.

Henry Ford was a notorious anti Semite.

Simply buying a product to resell dis not make every Ford franchisee an anti Semite.

I've never owned a Ford.

187 wrenchwench  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:56:14am

re: #179 researchok

You have to be careful there.

Henry Ford was a notorious anti Semite.

Simply buying a product to resell dis not make every Ford franchisee an anti Semite.

And nobody said every CFA franchisee was a bigot. But there's no doubt that money they earn through their hard work at their restaurant is being used to promote bigotry.

188 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:56:28am

re: #186 Kragar

LOLOL

189 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:57:28am

re: #187 wrenchwench

And nobody said every CFA franchisee was a bigot. But there's no doubt that money they earn through their hard work at their restaurant is being used to promote bigotry.

Best argument so far.

190 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:57:58am

re: #186 Kragar

I've never owned a Ford.

Never understood the number of Mercedes and BMWs on the streets of Tel Aviv.

191 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:59:04am

re: #190 Decatur Deb

I was told there were no export duties on German cars into Israel.

192 Interesting Times  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:59:14am

re: #185 researchok

Ford also bankrolled bigotry

He's also still dead. Note bolding in my original comment.

193 iossarian  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:59:15am

re: #180 Daniel Ballard

Got links to those stats?

Sure - the wikipedia article on social mobility is a good place to start and it has references:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Relevant quote:

At least five large studies in recent years have found that vertical inter-generational mobility is lower in America than in comparable nations, belief in America as a land of opportunity not withstanding.

Another good one is the economic mobility page:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Again, the relevant quote:

Other studies were less impressed with the rate of individual mobility in the United States. A 2007 inequality and mobility study (by Kopczuk, Saez and Song) and 2011 CBO study on "Trends in the Distribution of Household Income, found the pattern of annual and long-term earnings inequality "very close",[6] or "only modestly" different.[7] Another source described it as the mobility of "the guy who works in the college bookstore and has a real job by his early thirties," rather than poor people rising to middle class or middle income rising to wealth.[8]

So yes, some people have a post-college initial job and then move onto something more stable. But A) that isn't real economic mobility, and B) you're already talking about a minority of the population that actually completes a college degree and gets a degree-worthy job. The other people are making fries at Chik-Fil-A, and they're not going anywhere.

194 wrenchwench  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:00:08pm

re: #189 researchok

Best argument so far.

I quit my fast food job when I was a teenager after learning what a wingnut Carl Karcher was. Took a few weeks, but I did it.

195 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:01:18pm

re: #191 researchok

I was told there were no export duties on German cars into Israel.

My co-workers described some kind of 'reparations' effort. Seems creepy.

196 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:02:36pm

re: #194 wrenchwench

Seriously, that argument is the most cogent.

I'd be more impressed if there were an owners association who confronted Cathy on these things, or asked he contribute to their charity.

197 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:03:05pm

re: #195 Decatur Deb

Very, very creepy.

198 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:03:11pm

re: #24 Millicent Islam

You're going to hell for wearin' those Godless man-made fibres!

Man-made fibers are cool. You just can't mix linen and wool.

199 iossarian  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:04:00pm

re: #196 researchok

Seriously, that argument is the most cogent.

I'd be more impressed if there were an owners association who confronted Cathy on these things, or asked he contribute to their charity.

Something about the 10,000 to 75 franchise approval ratio (or whatever it was) tells me that it's unlikely that the owners are going to do much complaining about Cathy's obnoxious views.

200 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:04:53pm

re: #199 iossarian

Well, we do know some do.

201 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:05:12pm

re: #198 SanFranciscoZionist

Man-made fibers are cool. You just can't mix linen and wool.

What about flannel and denim?

202 wrenchwench  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:05:47pm

re: #196 researchok

Seriously, that argument is the most cogent.

I'd be more impressed if there were an owners association who confronted Cathy on these things, or asked he contribute to their charity.

I imagine a lot of them got in with eyes wide open and in full agreement with the Cathys. If they didn't, they should get out. It would be futile to try to change them.

203 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:05:49pm

re: #201 Kragar

LL Bean jeans, right?

204 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:05:54pm

re: #197 researchok

Very, very creepy.

I only knew one Israeli who remembered that they had produced a home-grown Reliant-based sports car. Saw one at the NY auto show around 1960.

[Link: www.sporting-reliants.com...]

205 iossarian  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:06:35pm

re: #200 researchok

Well, we do know some do.

We know that they've gone out of their way to distance themselves as individuals.

No evidence that they've done anything to organize themselves in opposition to his views though. I think that would be a fast track to "franchise revoked" status.

206 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:07:14pm

re: #202 wrenchwench

True, but it's a tough for them

Many go into debt to build a business to feed their families.

It's a messy business

207 iossarian  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:07:47pm

re: #206 researchok

True, but it's a tough for them

Many go into debt to build a business to feed their families.

It's a messy business

That's capitalism for you!

208 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:08:38pm

re: #205 iossarian

Again, I suspect you may be right (but there is also the matter of potential lawsuits if that happened. I suspect Cathy has had enough of the spotlight) but in fact, we just don't know.

209 researchok  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:09:07pm

re: #207 iossarian

Yup- nothing is perfect.

210 iossarian  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:10:12pm

re: #208 researchok

Again, I suspect you may be right (but there is also the matter of potential lawsuits if that happened. I suspect Cathy has had enough of the spotlight) but in fact, we just don't know.

The little I know of employment/contract law in the US would suggest to me that most of the power lies with Cathy - I think it would be pretty easy for him to get rid of people without having to provide any real justification other than non-discrimination, which presumably wouldn't apply in this case.

211 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:10:32pm

re: #190 Decatur Deb

Never understood the number of Mercedes and BMWs on the streets of Tel Aviv.

right-sided steering wheel.

American manufactures don't accomodate, IIRC.

212 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:12:02pm

re: #118 jaunte

Pat Robertson Sticks up for Chick-fil-A, Says Gays Make People 'Feel like they are Unwelcome'

Pat, I suspect that the undercurrent of inhospitality you are feeling from the gays may have something to do with you being Pat Robertson. This is just speculation, mind.

213 iossarian  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:12:07pm

re: #209 researchok

Yup- nothing is perfect.

No, and of course (as I said upthread) there are obviously positive aspects to corporate organizations, both from economic and social perspectives.

Criticizing the excesses of capitalism doesn't mean that there are no aspects of capitalist systems that are worth preserving or emulating.

214 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:12:07pm

re: #203 researchok

LL Bean jeans, right?

Flannel shirt, jeans, and a metal band t-shirt was pretty much my uniform of the day from '87-'92

215 iossarian  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:13:19pm

re: #212 SanFranciscoZionist

Pat, I suspect that the undercurrent of inhospitality you are feeling from the gays may have something to do with you being Pat Robertson. This is just speculation, mind.

About as welcome as a turd in a punchbowl.

216 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:13:23pm

re: #211 ggt

right-sided steering wheel.

American manufactures don't accomodate, IIRC.

Israel's roads might have been wonky-sided during the British mandate, but they drive on the correct American side now. (Or else I was just lucky with my little Mazda.)

217 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:14:48pm

re: #193 iossarian

So those HS, Trades & college graduates that endure minimum wake jobs don't get better income overall? For decades? Ridiculous.

218 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:18:37pm

re: #121 Daniel Ballard

So to be a CEO one must abandon their right to speak their beliefs for fear of reprisals not just against them, but all who have any relationship with them.

Sad really.

This CEO is quite upfront about his beliefs, and he expects to get business, support, and admiration for them. From some people, he does.

If my criticism and taking my business elsewhere counts as 'reprisals', I have no problem with that. I sincerely doubt that Chick-Fil-A franchisees will find themselves on the street as a result.

The anti-SSM, anti-gay forces out there have had no qualms whatsoever about boycotting companies they don't like.

Boycotting Chick-Fil-A may be ineffective, or slightly silly, or in my case completely irrelevent, since I've never set foot in one, but I have no moral obligation to buy their chicken, and the Muppets have no moral obligation to do business with them.

219 wrenchwench  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:19:28pm

re: #206 researchok

True, but it's a tough for them

Many go into debt to build a business to feed their families.

It's a messy business

Tell me about it.

220 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:20:31pm

re: #216 Decatur Deb

Israel's roads might have been wonky-sided during the British mandate, but they drive on the correct American side now. (Or else I was just lucky with my little Mazda.)

hmmm, then I got that wrong.

221 iossarian  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:22:53pm

re: #217 Daniel Ballard

So those HS, Trades & college graduates that endure minimum wake jobs don't get better income overall? For decades? Ridiculous.

I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make here.

There are two different things to examine: intra-generational mobility and inter-generational mobility.

On the "inter" front, the US lags behind Europe somewhat (or at least it seems to - it's apparently a fairly hard thing to quantify according to researchers, and this isn't my field of expertise). That means that if you're born into a certain quartile of income, say, you're more likely to stay there in the US than if you had been born in Europe.

On the "intra" front, (some) people progress through various jobs over their working lives and become better paid (though it's worth pointing out that a lot of people don't - there are plenty of older folks working on the checkout at the grocery store). However, even that isn't necessarily true economic or social mobility, since a certain amount of income progression is assumed as the baseline for, say, a "middle-class" person.

Finally, middle-class wages (and below) have stagnated in real terms for the past 30 years, while some things that are not typically factored into inflation (e.g., college education) now cost far more than they did a generation ago, so you can argue that the bottom portion of the population has gone backwards in terms of their ability to maintain their lifestyle/social position.

Anyway, I'd like to see evidence of upwards social mobility among a broadly-defined majority of the population, if that's what's being claimed in contrast to my observations.

222 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:23:11pm

re: #170 researchok

It isn't your money- it is Cathy's money.

That's the thing...his money comes from people buying chicken.

What obligation do I have to buy his chicken?

223 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:24:22pm

re: #179 researchok

You have to be careful there.

Henry Ford was a notorious anti Semite.

Simply buying a product to resell dis not make every Ford franchisee an anti Semite.

Buying a Ford put money in Henry Ford's Protocols-pushing pocket. No?

224 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:25:37pm

re: #220 ggt

hmmm, then I got that wrong.

Don't know when they changed over, could have been later than I think. Friends told me it was Brit-style one day, American the next.

225 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:25:52pm

re: #201 Kragar

What about flannel and denim?

Just fine, as long as there's no linen-wool blend.

I swear, I'm going to start a website. Call it "God Is Cool With Polyester". This rumor started at some point that shatnez bans all man-made or blended fibers, and it's just WRONG.

226 iossarian  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:26:16pm

re: #224 Decatur Deb

Don't know when they changed over, could have been later than I think. Friends told me it was Brit-style one day, American the next.

Israel and Sweden. Not much else in common.

227 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:26:55pm

re: #226 iossarian

Israel and Sweden. Not much else in common.

IIRC, South Korea too!

Everyone else drives on the wrong side.

228 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:27:49pm

re: #224 Decatur Deb

Don't know when they changed over, could have been later than I think. Friends told me it was Brit-style one day, American the next.

Which must have worked smoothly on roads in a country where everyone already thinks they were a tanker in the army, or just drive like it.

229 iossarian  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:28:08pm

re: #227 ggt

IIRC, South Korea too!

Everyone else drives on the wrong side.

As always, wikipedia delivers the goods:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

230 iossarian  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:29:16pm

re: #228 SanFranciscoZionist

Which must have worked smoothly on roads in a country where everyone already thinks they were a tanker in the army, or just drive like it.

One of the best fake letters to the editor in "Viz" ever (under the "top tips" category):

"Ford Fiesta drivers, why not attach a lit sparkler to the end of your radio antenna? You drive the things like fucking dodgems anyway, so you might as well look like one."

232 CuriousLurker  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:39:01pm

I know everyone has already moved upstairs, but this is getting ridiculous. I honestly don't see what the fuss is about.

A.) The First Amendment grants all Americans freedom of speech, so let's say a private American citizen is a Muslim and a franchisor who sympathizes with the Palestinians. One day, he decides to publicly announce his support for the BDS campaign and says he'll begin donating money he's earned to (legal) anti-Zionist organizations. Let's also say he's a fundie hard-liner and all this is predicated on his understanding of Islam. His right to do & believe these things is protected under the Constitution as long as he's not breaking the law.

B.) The First Amendment also grants all Americans freedom of assembly, so any Jews or other people who believe the franchisor's stance is bigoted & untenable may very well decide that they want to protest and/or boycott all the franchisee outlets in response. They are sending an economic message that not only do they not support said ideas, they but they're also concerned about profits going to organizations that they disagree with (or which work against) their best interests. Their right to do & believe these things is equally protected under the Constitution as long as they're not breaking the law.

One freedom doesn't trump the other, however the tone of some of the comments on this subject gives me the impression that some people think A trumps B. It does not—the franchisor is free to speak, believe, and donate however he pleases, and the public is free to respond with protests & boycotts as they see fit.

This seems really simple to me.

233 iossarian  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:42:11pm

re: #232 CuriousLurker

It has to do with some people's view that a concentration of wealth in one individual is somehow more legitimate than a concentration of power via social organization (e.g., unions).

Destro described it as "boss worship" in the next thread and I think that's pretty apt.

And with that, I'm also gone from this thread!

234 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 12:57:29pm

re: #221 iossarian

I think I read your post as upward mobility being very rare. I see it is reduced, but far from gone. And i expect it will improve along with many other factors as we get growth back coming out of the recession.

The internet made billionaires, millionaires and well paid programmers in high volume. Maybe it's apocryphal, but it was said Microsoft made more millionaires than any business entity ever. That kind of thing can certainly happen again.

235 Ming  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 1:31:48pm

Do these polls in the battleground states reflect the population that will actually be able to vote on November 6, considering the voter ID laws that will be in force? If (for example) you're eligible to vote with an NRA card, but not a student ID card, the polls should take that into account.

236 Patricia Kayden  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 1:55:48pm

re: #232 CuriousLurker

Exactly. Mr. Cathy can advocate against SSM and give $$$ to anti-gay orgs all he wants. And progressives can boycott his restaurants. This is not that hard to understand.
If this were the 60s and he had advocated against civil rights and given $$$ to anti-Black orgs, progressives would have boycotted/protested his restaurants as well. That was the whole point of the civil rights movement. I don't understand how boycotting Chick-fil-A is any different given the CEO's anti-gay stance.

237 Patricia Kayden  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 2:01:54pm

re: #7 Millicent Islam

The media is heavily invested in making the race seem as close as possible. I still think Obama has a lock on it.

Wow. I wish I could have your confidence. I'll be on pins and needles until all the votes have been counted and Obama is declared the winner. I still have nightmares about 2000 when I went to bed confident that Gore had won, only to wake up to the Florida fiasco. My heart can't take another round of foolishness. LOL.

238 gwangung  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 2:04:09pm

re: #234 Daniel Ballard

That thing about Microsoft doesn't really support your point about mobility, though, since a) you don't know where these people started from (Bill Gates came from a family that was already part of the 1% before Microsoft)' and b) this and other boom related riches says nothing about the rest of the population---for example, if ALL the mobility was concentrated into the Microsoft millionaires, then it says nothing about social mobility in general.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ...
Cheechako
3 days ago
Views: 122 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
2 weeks ago
Views: 285 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1