Sarah Palin: “Seeing as How Dick Never Misfires”

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It’s Darth Vader versus Mama Grizzly in the battle of the right wing titans: Sarah Palin: It’s a ‘Shame’ About Dick Cheney.

Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin said Tuesday that it’s a “shame” former Vice President Dick Cheney considers her vice presidential selection a misfire, but she might be joining Cheney in skipping the Republican National Convention.

“Well, seeing as how Dick — excuse me, Vice President Cheney — never misfires, then evidently, he’s quite convinced that what he had evidently read about me by the lamestream media — having been written what I believe is a false narrative over the last four years — evidently, Dick Cheney believes that stuff, and that’s a shame,” Palin said on Fox News’s “On The Record with Greta Van Susteren.”

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458 comments
1 neilk  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:09:44pm

If she had the wit to make fun of him for shooting an old man in the face, I respect her a little bit more now.

2 darthstar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:12:20pm

Sarah Palin knows dick misfires...

3 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:13:36pm

re: #2 darthstar

Sarah Palin knows dick misfires...

Now, now.

4 darthstar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:14:06pm

re: #1 neilk

If she had the wit to make fun of him for shooting an old man in the face, I respect her a little bit more now.

Please don't mention face shots palin and dick in the same sentence

5 elisabeth  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:15:07pm

Still slogging that "lamestream media" mess. And still can't speak in coherent sentences, either.

6 Cap'n Magic  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:15:11pm

And people wonder why the US is so fsck'ed up, we just heaped a whole lot of offal on their plate with this.

7 Minor_L  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:16:23pm

Wait, she said "lamestream media"? She is such a joke.

8 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:16:26pm

re: #6 Cap'n Magic

And people wonder why the US is so fsck'ed up, we just heaped a whole lot of offal on their plate with this.

Bad analogy.

Chitlins have the shit removed before being presented to the consuming audience; being full of shit is what allows Palin to have an audience at all.

9 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:16:46pm

re: #5 elisabeth

Still slogging that "lamestream media" mess. And still can't speak in coherent sentences, either.

I thought she was speaking in tongues.

10 darthstar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:16:47pm

LGF looks good on this phone and google voice typing works great. End of technical demonstration.

11 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:16:49pm

All she forgot was to cough into her hand while saying "asshole"

12 jaunte  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:17:29pm
“Well, seeing as how Dick — excuse me, Vice President Cheney — never misfires, then evidently, he’s quite convinced that what he had evidently read about me by the lamestream media — having been written what I believe is a false narrative over the last four years — evidently, Dick Cheney believes that stuff, and that’s a shame,

Wordevidently Salad.

13 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:17:36pm

re: #10 darthstar

LGF looks good on this phone and google voice typing works great. End of technical demonstration.

Show us.

14 Cap'n Magic  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:17:40pm

re: #8 The Ghost of a Flea

I stand corrected.

15 qubit2020  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:18:16pm

She is such and idiot...Can't even put 2 coherent sentences together...

16 jaunte  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:18:40pm

False shame narrative Dick misfire.

17 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:19:05pm

re: #9 b_sharp

I thought she was speaking in tongues.

"Head up own ass" is a difficult dialect to comprehend. To the uninitiated it sounds like agrammatic gibberish.

18 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:19:37pm

re: #15 qubit2020

She is such and idiot...Can't even put 2 coherent sentences together...

Who is there in her circle of friends who can hand her coherent sentences to put together?

19 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:20:08pm

re: #18 b_sharp

Who is there in her circle of friends who can hand her coherent sentences to put together?

Joe the Grammarian?

20 elisabeth  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:20:15pm

And wasn't there some issue because she hadn't been invited to the convention? Might be why she' skipping it although I think she should be the keynote speaker.

21 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:20:31pm

re: #17 The Ghost of a Flea

"Head up own ass" is a difficult dialect to comprehend. To the uninitiated it sounds like agrammatic gibberish.

Such impressive flexibility.

22 elisabeth  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:20:56pm

re: #18 b_sharp

I have hope for Piper. Although we don't hear much from/about Willow.

23 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:21:17pm

re: #19 The Ghost of a Flea

Joe the Grammarian?

He bailed.
or
He baled.

24 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:21:43pm

re: #10 darthstar

LGF has a mobile version now? !

25 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:25:29pm

re: #24 Daniel Ballard

No, but the phones are getting better at keeping up.

26 Petero1818  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:29:29pm

re: #5 elisabeth

Still slogging that "lamestream media" mess. And still can't speak in coherent sentences, either.

evidently.

27 Petero1818  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:32:38pm

Yes, apparently Dick Cheney's only source of information regarding Palin and her impact on the previous presidential race is courtesy of Anderson Cooper. I understand Dick has him on his speed dial. What other way could Dick get the inside scoop on Palin? Who might he know that may have had the ear of insiders? I cant imagine.

28 Mattand  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:37:17pm

re: #5 elisabeth

Still slogging that "lamestream media" mess. And still can't speak in coherent sentences, either.

re: #7 Minor_L

Wait, she said "lamestream media"? She is such a joke.

Dear Mrs. Palin:

For God's sake;
STOP.
SAYING.
"LAMESTREAM MEDIA."

Thank you.

29 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:38:22pm

Man, she is hitting every joke just right. We're going to have to start calling her Nailin' Palin.

30 jaunte  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:38:25pm

Before current birth-control fight, Republicans backed mandates

Republicans are fighting a birth-control rule in President Obama's healthcare law, but several states have enacted contraceptive mandates with the support of GOP lawmakers and governors.
...
In Massachusetts in 2006, then-Gov. Mitt Romney signed a healthcare overhaul that kept in place a contraceptive mandate signed by his Republican predecessor. Now the GOP presidential candidate is calling the Obama rule an "assault on religion."

Sarah Palin Calls President Obama’s Contraceptive Mandate An ‘Un-American Act’

“Welcome to government-mandated health care! Very poor politics they would choose such a battle. One, to pick a fight with faith-filled Americans. You know, we will fight — as the father had said earlier on the Hannity show — we’ll fight to the death for our freedom of religion and for the rights that are protected by our United States Constitution. This is an un-American act of our president. Anything that would so blatantly violate an amendment within the United States Constitution is un-American.“

31 Interesting Times  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:38:26pm

Speaking of weapons-grade derp...

32 SpaceJesus  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:39:11pm

this whole thing can only end well

33 qubit2020  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:39:16pm

Interesting fissures on the right. Cheney, the elder, (wrong about everything, except, Palin) is not well liked - doesn't sufficiently hate gay people... Palin, the charismatic mama grizzly goes rogue against the establishment Neocon.

34 Destro  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:40:09pm

How can we as a nation tell the world to adopt democracy when in America one of these was almost the Vice President and the other one was the Vice President for 8 years? What could we say? Overthrow your dicator and maybe if your lucky you can have your own versions of Sarah Palin or Dick Cheney to run your country!

35 MittDoesNotCompute  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:40:37pm

re: #29 Kragar

Man, she is hitting every joke just right. We're going to have to start calling her Nailin' Palin.

Too bad...she might have had a helluva career in the Borscht Belt back in the day, knockin' 'em dead.

/

36 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:41:30pm

re: #29 Kragar

Man, she is hitting every joke just right. We're going to have to start calling her Nailin' Palin.

Ewww.

37 Cap'n Magic  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:41:52pm

re: #28 Mattand

Yet she said this appearing on the most lamestream media site around.

Kinda makes ya wonder who is playing who here.

38 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:45:03pm

re: #32 SpaceJesus

this whole thing can only end well

Pass the popcorn.

39 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:46:43pm

Tidal Pools: Nature's Putrid Sewers

Youtube Video
40 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:50:34pm

re: #39 Charles Johnson

Tidal Pools: Nature's Putrid Sewers

[Embedded content]

Nemo!

41 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:51:13pm

re: #7 Minor_L

Wait, she said "lamestream media"? She is such a joke.

She always says 'lamestream media'. It's one of her key phrases.

42 What, me worry?  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:52:08pm

Come on. Where would we be without our Palinisms? As long as she poses no credible threat, I say, "Bring it on, lamestream media!"

Poor gal. The GOP is dumping her like a pretty Katherine Harris.

43 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:55:23pm

re: #34 Destro

How can we as a nation tell the world to adopt democracy when in America one of these was almost the Vice President and the other one was the Vice President for 8 years? What could we say? Overthrow your dicator and maybe if your lucky you can have your own versions of Sarah Palin or Dick Cheney to run your country!

Clearly, freedom to elect your leaders is not worth the risk of four years of Sarah Palin. If you just trust in divine providence, you could get someone sane like Moammar Gaddafi to run your country for thirty-plus years.

44 palomino  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:56:09pm

Palin's assertion that Cheney just gullibly bought into the MSM's unfair depiction of her is absurd. Cheney hates the MSM as much as she does, he's just not an idiot. An asshole, maybe, but not an idiot.

45 Mich-again  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:57:00pm

Keep talking Sarah, What you lack in brains you make up for in confidence.

Maybe, just maybe, Maverick McCain picked her for veep because there just wasn't anyone better to pick from in the GOP clown show.

They're all pretty dumb, at least she was dumb and cute.

46 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:57:23pm

re: #42 What, me worry?

Come on. Where would we be without our Palinisms? As long as she poses no credible threat, I say, "Bring it on, lamestream media!"

Poor gal. The GOP is dumping her like a pretty Katherine Harris.

Nothing wrong with Katherine Harris that changing her foundation tone couldn't fix. Her problem was mostly one of badly chosen makeup. I mean, her appearance problem.

But the old-school Republicans have never liked her. The Bushes sent Barbara Sr. to take the shot, but Cheney did it on his own.

EDIT: The old-school Republicans don't like PALIN.

47 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:58:58pm

re: #44 palomino

Palin's assertion that Cheney just gullibly bought into the MSM's unfair depiction of her is absurd. Cheney hates the MSM as much as she does, he's just not an idiot. An asshole, maybe, but not an idiot.

Yes, but its typical Palin: Try to use her looks and crowd-drawing power to drown out any person suggesting she is a negative for Republicans.

48 garhighway  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:59:58pm

re: #44 palomino

Palin's assertion that Cheney just gullibly bought into the MSM's unfair depiction of her is absurd. Cheney hates the MSM as much as she does, he's just not an idiot. An asshole, maybe, but not an idiot.

Maybe?

49 Destro  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:00:49pm

re: #43 SanFranciscoZionist

Clearly, freedom to elect your leaders is not worth the risk of four years of Sarah Palin. If you just trust in divine providence, you could get someone sane like Moammar Gaddafi to run your country for thirty-plus years.

Based on the kooks who slipped in after Gaddafi, they may have been better off under that nutjob after all. Time will tell.

The president of Libya's Olympic Committee said hours after he returned home Sunday that his kidnapping remains a mystery but that authorities promised to investigate the case.

50 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:01:02pm

re: #15 qubit2020

She is such and idiot...Can't even put 2 coherent sentences together...

Her goal is to be in the news. She wasn't for awhile. Then here comes the spout off's. Pitiful.

I love how her first real "press conference" was to the reality TV press.

51 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:01:46pm

re: #45 Mich-again

Keep talking Sarah, What you lack in brains you make up for in confidence.

Maybe, just maybe, Maverick McCain picked her for veep because there just wasn't anyone better to pick from in the GOP clown show.

They're all pretty dumb, at least she was dumb and cute.

Oh, he could have done better.

It was a Hail Mary pass, or as they say in old William Gibson novels, a 'jack move'. McCain was losing. He decided to see if throwing a young, pretty, female VP candidate with five kids, a folksy accent, and a frontiersy legend would boost votes enough to make a difference.

Hell, I was interested in her for forty-five seconds, and I'm a lifelong hereditary Democrat. Then she opened her mouth...

52 palomino  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:03:52pm

re: #47 Dark_Falcon

Yes, but its typical Palin: Try to use her looks and crowd-drawing power to drown out any person suggesting she is a negative for Republicans.

Yes, and the other typical Palin part about it is her incredibly thin-skinned inability to take any criticism, and her need to settle scores by hurling further insults.

Add the word salad she vomited up to Greta, and she's the whole package. Notice that she uses the word "evidently" twice in one sentence, neither time coherently. She has the language skills of a C-student in the 7th grade.

53 jaunte  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:04:08pm
54 Mich-again  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:05:37pm

re: #51 SanFranciscoZionist

Hell, I was interested in her for forty-five seconds, and I'm a lifelong hereditary Democrat. Then she opened her mouth...

For me the interview with Katie Couric made me feel like Shelly Duvall in The Shining when she read through the manuscript of Jack's novel and realized he was looney tunes. She was a deer in the headlights when Couric asked her to name which newspapers she read. Palin could not name a single newspaper and acted like it was a trick question or something.

55 Mich-again  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:06:49pm

re: #52 palomino

She has the language skills of a C-student in the 7th grade.

Perfect for communicating with Teabillies.

56 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:07:15pm

re: #54 Mich-again

For me the interview with Katie Couric made me feel like Shelly Duvall in The Shining when she read through the manuscript of Jack's novel and realized he was looney tunes. She was a deer in the headlights when Couric asked her to name which newspapers she read. Palin could not name a single newspaper and acted like it was a trick question or something.

That didn't scare me as much as pundits I had not realized were actively insane up to that point insisting that it was a trick question, classist, sexist, and unfair.

Dennis Prager (who I had already realized was nuts at that point) chimed in by insisting that there was no generally understood meaning for "Bush doctrine".

57 JRCMYP  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:07:19pm

Ugh. Ugh. Ugh. I'm seeing where her daughters get their wit and charm.

58 Mich-again  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:07:58pm

I love it how when people criticise Palin for being a dimwit, she responds by proving them right.

59 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:08:36pm

And in other news, Illinois Gov. Pat Quinn used his amendatory veto power to change a bill passed by the state legislature that would allow holders of a Firearms Owner Identification Card (FOID) into a bill purporting to ban "Assault Weapons" but that seems to ban many common semi-auto hunting rifles. I'll have a Page on this tomorrow, but I wanted to note it now, since it is going to be an issue for me for a bit. I oppose this proposal, of course, not the least of which because as I understand it what Quinn has proposed is stricter than California's 'assault weapons ban'.

This link is to an article by the Chicago Tribune. It does not get into specifics, so its utility is limited, but I felt a link needed to be provided.

60 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:11:47pm

re: #57 JRCMYP

Ugh. Ugh. Ugh. I'm seeing where her daughters get their wit and charm.

Well, you'll get to see some more charm from Bristol Palin when she's back on Dancing With the Stars this fall.

Frankly, in terms of who the show should have gotten from Palin's season, my answer would be: "WOLVERINES!" And I've got two updings to anyone but Destro who explains why I used that line.

61 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:14:58pm

re: #59 Dark_Falcon

And in other news, Illinois Gov. Pat Quinn used his amendatory veto power to change a bill passed by the state legislature that would allow holders of a Firearms Owner Identification Card (FOID) into a bill purporting to ban "Assault Weapons" but that seems to ban many common semi-auto hunting rifles. I'll have a Page on this tomorrow, but I wanted to note it now, since it is going to be an issue for me for a bit. I oppose this proposal, of course, not the least of which because as I understand it what Quinn has proposed is stricter than California's 'assault weapons ban'.

This link is to an article by the Chicago Tribune. It does not get into specifics, so its utility is limited, but I felt a link needed to be provided.

Wait, you mean in absence of Federal action, the states *gasp!* might take action in ways that the pro-gun crowd likes even less?!

62 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:16:47pm

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

Well, you'll get to see some more charm from Bristol Palin when she's back on Dancing With the Stars this fall.

Frankly, in terms of who the show should have gotten from Palin's season, my answer would be: "WOLVERINES!" And I've got two updings to anyone but Destro who explains why I used that line.

Jennifer Grey wants to know.

63 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:16:49pm

re: #59 Dark_Falcon

I oppose this proposal, of course, not the least of which because as I understand it what Quinn has proposed is stricter than California's 'assault weapons ban'.

How so?

64 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:17:57pm

re: #61 Targetpractice

Wait, you mean in absence of Federal action, the states *gasp!* might take action in ways that the pro-gun crowd likes even less?!

No, not really. This idea by Quinn is unlike to pass, it really is too extreme. But I want to to do some more research before I get into the whys of this proposal. I want to get my ducks in a row before I engage in that sort of analysis.

65 Mich-again  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:18:02pm

re: #59 Dark_Falcon

And in other news, Illinois Gov. Pat Quinn used his amendatory veto power to change a bill passed by the state legislature that would allow holders of a Firearms Owner Identification Card (FOID) into a bill purporting to ban "Assault Weapons" but that seems to ban many common semi-auto hunting rifles. I'll have a Page on this tomorrow, but I wanted to note it now, since it is going to be an issue for me for a bit. I oppose this proposal, of course, not the least of which because as I understand it what Quinn has proposed is stricter than California's 'assault weapons ban'.

I suppose there are three basic strategies. 1) do nothing new and just accept that occasionally a nutjob mass murderer will shoot up a restaurant or movie theater or school. 2) Make it more difficult for people to legally obtain weapons and stockpile ammunition. 3) Give law enforcement more power for surveillance and investigating suspicious activity.

It seems that American politicians have settled on 1. I think that is ridiculous and unnacceptable.

66 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:18:13pm

re: #62 Kragar

Jennifer Grey wants to know.

You win.

67 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:21:42pm

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

Well, you'll get to see some more charm from Bristol Palin when she's back on Dancing With the Stars this fall.

Frankly, in terms of who the show should have gotten from Palin's season, my answer would be: "WOLVERINES!" And I've got two updings to anyone but Destro who explains why I used that line.

Even post nose job, Jennifer Grey is still far better looking.

68 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:22:08pm

re: #66 Dark_Falcon

You win.

Naturally.

69 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:22:24pm

re: #65 Mich-again

I suppose there are three basic strategies. 1) do nothing new and just accept that occasionally a nutjob mass murderer will shoot up a restaurant or movie theater or school. 2) Make it more difficult for people to legally obtain weapons and stockpile ammunition. 3) Give law enforcement more power for surveillance and investigating suspicious activity.

It seems that American politicians have settled on 1. I think that ridiculous and unnacceptable.

While #3 would basically mean signing away more of our rights and privacy to the government on the "promise" that lone wolf gunmen will be the only ones the government focuses on.

70 What, me worry?  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:24:18pm

re: #46 SanFranciscoZionist

Nothing wrong with Katherine Harris that changing her foundation tone couldn't fix. Her problem was mostly one of badly chosen makeup. I mean, her appearance problem.

But the old-school Republicans have never liked her. The Bushes sent Barbara Sr. to take the shot, but Cheney did it on his own.

EDIT: The old-school Republicans don't like PALIN.

Oh they liked her for plenty. She stopped the recount. She had lots of power.

When she fell from her FL Sec of State position, she managed to become a Representative but lost re-election. Her campaign staff bailed on her as I recall. And her loony-tune-ness rivals Michelle Bachmann. She actually missed her calling by about 10 years. (To the world's benefit.)

71 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:25:14pm

re: #70 What, me worry?

Oh they liked her for plenty. She stopped the recount. She had lots of power.

When she fell from her FL Sec of State position, she managed to become a Representative but lost re-election. Her campaign staff bailed on her as I recall. And her loony-tune-ness rivals Michelle Bachmann. She actually missed her calling by about 10 years. (To the world's benefit.)

OK, now I can SEE I got the edit in before you posted that...

72 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:27:41pm
73 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:28:41pm

re: #63 goddamnedfrank

How so?

These are direct quotes from Quinn's amendatory veto:

A semi-automatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has any of the following:

i. A folding or telescoping stock;

ii. A pistol grip or thumbhole stock;
iii. A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel, and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned; or
iv. A fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds of ammunition

BREAK

A semi-automatic shotgun that has any of the following:

i. A folding or telescoping stock;

ii. A pistol grip or thumbhole stock;
iii. A fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; or
iv. An ability to accept a detachable magazine.

These would outlaw any AR/AK derivative even ones designed to take no more than 10 rounds. Moreover, that 'shroud' part for rifles would seem to outlaw many handguards on common hunting rifles.

Full text of the proposal is here.

74 Mich-again  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:29:08pm

re: #69 Targetpractice

While #3 would basically mean signing away more of our rights and privacy to the government on the "promise" that lone wolf gunmen will be the only ones the government focuses on.

I guess you have to try to balance the rights between privacy and safety. The cost of being able to secretly stockpile an arsenal of weapons and ammunition is that every so often someone will use that privelege to help them plan and commit mass murder. Like I said, America and American politicians seem to think that is the best course for the future. I think that whole attitude is based on a conspiracy theory that the Gubmit is going to send SWAT teams door to door to confiscate everyone's firearms. Funny how so many people who mock other conspiracy theorists buy into that one hook line and sinker without even thinking twice.

75 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:35:40pm

re: #59 Dark_Falcon

If I can help at all drop me a line. I have a good grip on California codes on guns. You might still have my email. If not, it's available as per the new system here.

76 labman57  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:37:49pm

Palin the Hutt claims mainstream news media used an old Jedi mind trick on Darth Cheney.
Just more fantastical spin from the Whining Wannabe from Wasilla.

77 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:38:02pm

re: #63 goddamnedfrank

How so?

Here's Quinn's proposal and here's California's assault weapons ban. California has a bunch of rifles that are banned by name too, but that was easy to circumvent. Cali bans threaded barrels on semi-auto pistols, so Quinn's proposal is actually less strict in that sense. I see nothing in Quinn's letter that precludes the use of the bullet button.

Basically Quinn's proposal is virtually identical to the current set of California laws, I don't see anything that's in any way stricter.

78 jaunte  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:38:04pm

Jen McCreight:

So you were just called a bigot

"I know your feelings are hurt. No one wants to be called a bigot, right? But before you do something silly like scream “FREE SPEECH” or say I’m the bigot, let’s rewind a bit.

Chick-Fil-A has funneled millions of dollars toward certified hate groups in order to fund campaigns that depict gay people as pedophiles, fight against “gay behavior” and the legalization of same-sex marriage, and support dangerous “pray away the gay” programs. They also used their profits to support Uganda’s “Kill the Gays” bill. When I first found out about these atrocious things a couple of years ago, I stopped eating at Chick-Fil-A (despite how much I love their delicious chicken sandwiches). I did not feel right knowing my money could ultimately be used to hurt GLBT people."

79 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:41:03pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

Moreover, that 'shroud' part for rifles would seem to outlaw many handguards on common hunting rifles.

No, you're conflating shroud with stock.

80 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:41:18pm

re: #74 Mich-again

Pretty much. I have one pro-gun wingnut tell me flat out that shootings like Aurora or Tuscon are "the price of freedom," and that outlawing 100 round drum magazines actually puts law-abiding citizens lives at risk because they might need those to defend their homes. He's absolutely convinced that America's going bankrupt in the near future and that we're gonna need all the firepower we can get to protect ourselves when the government goes dictatorial. Got himself this little fantasy in his head of heavily armed "patriots" fighting an insurgency that will enjoy popular support because people will want to tear down the government that drove the country into bankruptcy.

Only thing he hasn't done yet is scream "WOLVERINES!"

81 palomino  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:44:27pm

re: #64 Dark_Falcon

No, not really. This idea by Quinn is unlike to pass, it really is too extreme. But I want to to do some more research before I get into the whys of this proposal. I want to get my ducks in a row before I engage in that sort of analysis.

These proposals aren't extreme, at least not in comparison to the rest of the developed world. Even if the bill in question passes, IL and the rest of the US still have far fewer firearm regulations than all those countries that, you know, don't have 10,000 gun murders each year.

82 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:44:33pm
83 steve_davis  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:44:38pm

re: #7 Minor_L

Wait, she said "lamestream media"? She is such a joke.

ARe you kidding? She not only said it, she's put a TM after it to make it hers and hers alone.

84 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:50:01pm

re: #79 goddamnedfrank

No, you're conflating shroud with stock.

I don't think so. In many rifles the handguard is a separate piece from the stock.

Moreover, the FN FAL is currently being built in Illinois as is the AR-15, and Quinn's proposal would seem to outlaw their manufacture or at least make it more difficult. And that would include 7.62mm Designated Marksman's Rifle Lewis Machine and Tool builds in Illinois for our allies in the UK and New Zealand.

I checked the criminal code on this one before posting but I could be wrong about it, so take it for what it is worth.

85 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:50:14pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

California rifles have a 10 round limit, and can have a detachable magazine as long s it takes a tool to remove it.

86 Minor_L  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:51:11pm

re: #41 SanFranciscoZionist

This is an adult? Who is taken seriously as a political analyst (or "personality," I suppose)? I guess I have been in denial about how bad the discourse has really become.

87 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:52:30pm

re: #85 Daniel Ballard

California rifles have a 10 round limit, and can have a detachable magazine as long s it takes a tool to remove it.

Yeah, a tool like a button glove.

88 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:53:50pm

re: #86 Minor_L

Welcome to LGF.

89 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:56:33pm

Check out this NYT obit correction for Gore Vidal. epic.

90 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 7:58:37pm

Seriously, who is excited for Romney's VP by app?

91 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:00:50pm

re: #81 palomino

These proposals aren't extreme, at least not in comparison to the rest of the developed world. Even if the bill in question passes, IL and the rest of the US still have far fewer firearm regulations than all those countries that, you know, don't have 10,000 gun murders each year.

I'm not a fan of assault weapons bans because I don't think they do much to solve any of our society's real problems. For instance, today I put money down on used early 1980's Smith and Wesson Model 60 .38 Special. Just looking at it from a typical law enforcement basis, compared to a semi auto AK47 or AR15 that little five shot revolver is probably far more problematic, more concealable and conducive to criminality.

However our culture is swimming in guns of all types, so I don't see where instituting a ban is going to bear fruit on a time scale of less than a millennium. Better to focus on the actual roots of violent crime, things like education, fighting poverty, ending the drug war, etc.

92 Mich-again  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:03:58pm

re: #90 Stanley Sea

Seriously, who is excited for Romney's VP by app?

I am curious to see which GOP granfaloon Mitt is going to throw a bone to with his VP pick. Its not about who is most qualified, its about who can bring his ticket the most votes.

93 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:04:26pm

re: #87 Kragar

Yup, some clever person worked that up. BTW we have some more information about the Aurora killer. I think it bolsters my point that we need to restrict guns from people that are of real concern to real practitioners. Keep guns from people like these and you need not worry about a removable magazine rifle in the hands of ordinary people.

(CNN) -- The psychiatrist treating the accused Colorado movie theater gunman was so concerned about his behavior that she mentioned it to her colleagues, saying he could potentially be a danger to others, CNN affiliate KMGH reported Wednesday, citing sources with knowledge of the investigation.

The psychiatrist's concerns surfaced in early June, nearly six weeks before the July 20 killings inside a movie theater in Aurora, sources told the Denver station.

Twelve people were killed and 58 wounded when the gunman opened fire during a screening of the new Batman film. James Holmes, 24, was charged Monday with murder and attempted murder in the case; he also faces two weapons charges.

94 prairiefire  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:05:08pm

I think it is hilarious that Dick and Sarah are both violating Reagan's rule against criticizing fellow Republicans. Four bloody incisors between the two of them. I'm sure that the august Dick is appalled at the gall of the neophyte.

95 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:06:01pm

re: #91 goddamnedfrank

Better to focus on the actual roots of violent crime, things like education, fighting poverty, ending the drug war, etc.

But a gun ban, even though it won't work, sounds good and is a fast and easy bit of "feel good" legislation so they can pretend they did something about it. Actually going after the root causes of violence - poverty, lack of health care, lack of mental health care, and so forth - is too hard and expensive.

The model 60 is sweet, btw. I'm bidding on a Mauser HSc myself.

96 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:06:18pm

re: #93 Daniel Ballard

Yup, some clever person worked that up. BTW we have some more information about the Aurora killer. I think it bolsters my point that we need to restrict guns from people that are of real concern to real practitioners. Keep guns from people like these and you need not worry about a removable magazine rifle in the hands of ordinary people.

(CNN) -- The psychiatrist treating the accused Colorado movie theater gunman was so concerned about his behavior that she mentioned it to her colleagues, saying he could potentially be a danger to others, CNN affiliate KMGH reported Wednesday, citing sources with knowledge of the investigation.

The psychiatrist's concerns surfaced in early June, nearly six weeks before the July 20 killings inside a movie theater in Aurora, sources told the Denver station.

Twelve people were killed and 58 wounded when the gunman opened fire during a screening of the new Batman film. James Holmes, 24, was charged Monday with murder and attempted murder in the case; he also faces two weapons charges.

So she's out of the running for the Follow-Through Award.

97 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:06:43pm

re: #91 goddamnedfrank

Absolutely. You ask any cop what gun they'd like to see banned, and if they do want a ban, they'll want it on handguns. More cops die from that than anything else.

And I agree that the roots of the problem of violence are far more important to address than simpleminded fewer guns = fewer gun crimes. It's interesting to see how, in the Fast and Furious case, many people on the 'left' and 'right' took each other's positions; suddenly the 'right' was arguing that these particular guns matter, that without these guns there is no murder-- and people on the 'left' arguing that individual guns don't matter, that the murderers would have gotten weapons from somewhere.

We don't just have a gun violence problem in this country. We also have a problem of domestic violence. We have a weird fetishization of vigilantes. We have people constantly stoking fear, fear and division.

98 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:08:35pm

re: #96 Decatur Deb

So she's out of the running for the Follow-Through Award.

Ethically, I don't think 'potentially' is strong enough. Anyone with a temper could be said to be 'potentially' dangerous to others. She thought he wasn't dangerous enough to involuntarily commit him. She was wrong.

This is why it would suck to be a psychiatrist.

99 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:09:33pm

re: #93 Daniel Ballard

Yup, some clever person worked that up. BTW we have some more information about the Aurora killer. I think it bolsters my point that we need to restrict guns from people that are of real concern to real practitioners. Keep guns from people like these and you need not worry about a removable magazine rifle in the hands of ordinary people.

(CNN) -- The psychiatrist treating the accused Colorado movie theater gunman was so concerned about his behavior that she mentioned it to her colleagues, saying he could potentially be a danger to others, CNN affiliate KMGH reported Wednesday, citing sources with knowledge of the investigation.

The psychiatrist's concerns surfaced in early June, nearly six weeks before the July 20 killings inside a movie theater in Aurora, sources told the Denver station.

Twelve people were killed and 58 wounded when the gunman opened fire during a screening of the new Batman film. James Holmes, 24, was charged Monday with murder and attempted murder in the case; he also faces two weapons charges.

But people will scream if they are mis-interpreted/targeted. How will that work?

100 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:12:03pm

re: #94 prairiefire

I think it is hilarious that Dick and Sarah are both violating Reagan's rule against criticizing fellow Republicans. Four bloody incisors between the two of them. I'm sure that the august Dick is appalled at the gall of the neophyte.

Sarah's whole schtick has been against "Establishment Republicans." that's how she hides her idiocy, incoherence and desire to be Ivana Trump.

Working so far.

101 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:12:15pm

re: #99 Stanley Sea

If a qualified psychologist says you are a danger to yourself and others, the law is already up to the task of taking all kinds of rights away. We have a decent precedent right there.

102 palomino  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:13:16pm

re: #91 goddamnedfrank

I'm not a fan of assault weapons bans because I don't think they do much to solve any of our society's real problems. For instance, today I put money down on used early 1980's Smith and Wesson Model 60 .38 Special. Just looking at it from a typical law enforcement basis, compared to a semi auto AK47 or AR15 that little five shot revolver is probably far more problematic, more concealable and conducive to criminality.

However our culture is swimming in guns of all types, so I don't see where instituting a ban is going to bear fruit on a time scale of less than a millennium. Better to focus on the actual roots of violent crime, things like education, fighting poverty, ending the drug war, etc.

Sure, it's not the whole solution, or necessarily even a major part of it. But when any restrictions on firearm sales are derided as fascist or unconstitutional, it's a sign that we're also swimming in gun fetishists and have our priorities upside down. The unthinking knee-jerk opposition to anything that could even be remotely referred to as "gun control" is part of the problem.

Shouldn't it be at least as easy to vote as to purchase a gun? Not in some states.

103 erik_t  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:14:09pm

re: #101 Daniel Ballard

If a qualified psychologist says you are a danger to yourself and others, the law is already up to the task of taking all kinds of rights away. We have a decent precedent right there.

It's not exactly a binary value.

104 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:14:23pm

re: #101 Daniel Ballard

If a qualified psychologist says you are a danger to yourself and others, the law is already up to the task of taking all kinds of rights away. We have a decent precedent right there.

That's fine as long as there is due process to challenge the ruling, as there is with the Department of Veteran's Affairs.

105 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:16:01pm

re: #101 Daniel Ballard

If a qualified psychologist says you are a danger to yourself and others, the law is already up to the task of taking all kinds of rights away. We have a decent precedent right there.

But in this case, it sounds like she did what she was supposed to. She has suspicions, but unless he directly told her he was going to act, she was ethically bound not to do anything more than what she did-- alert a team at the university to evaluate him, who then couldn't because he was dropping out.

In this case, he was seeing a psychiatrist, she did think he was potentially dangerous, and yet current law allowed him to arm himself well. So I'm not quite sure what your point is-- do you want a law that anyone getting psychiatric treatment gets their guns taken away?

106 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:16:22pm

re: #102 palomino

Sure, it's not the whole solution, or necessarily even a major part of it. But when any restrictions on firearm sales are derided as fascist or unconstitutional, it's a sign that we're also swimming in gun fetishists and have our priorities upside down. The unthinking knee-jerk opposition to anything that could even be remotely referred to as "gun control" is part of the problem.

Shouldn't it be at least as easy to vote as to purchase a gun? Not in some states.

Yes, but Illinois is not one of them. Here you need a special photo ID to buy or use a gun. So when I talk about the laws and proposed laws for my home state, please do note these laws are already stricter than those you decry.

107 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:16:47pm

re: #101 Daniel Ballard

If a qualified psychologist says you are a danger to yourself and others, the law is already up to the task of taking all kinds of rights away. We have a decent precedent right there.

Does their malpractice cover wrong diagnosis? I see the NRA going up against any psych who denies any freak a gun. Extremely problematic.

108 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:18:11pm

re: #103 erik_t

It's a good start. What we lack is data on how and why people come to that mental state. Guns are easy to pass laws about. Digging into our base reasons for criminality as compared to so many other cultures is hard, painful and so far fairly unwelcome.

109 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:18:14pm

re: #99 Stanley Sea

But people will scream if they are mis-interpreted/targeted. How will that work?

That's the double-edged sword we've created for ourselves in this country, where we're afraid to act to get people with mental illness help because we fear lawsuits or worse for "misinterpreting the signals," but our fear of acting is allowing people with very real mental illnesses to go without treatment and eventually act upon impulses they can't control alone.

Holmes is another Loughner, another Seung-Hui, another time bomb that went off because nobody wanted to admit they could hear the ticking.

110 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:18:27pm

re: #86 Minor_L

This is an adult? Who is taken seriously as a political analyst (or "personality," I suppose)? I guess I have been in denial about how bad the discourse has really become.

Well, 'taken seriously' may be taking it a bit too far.

111 palomino  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:19:45pm

re: #106 Dark_Falcon

Yes, but Illinois is not one of them. Here you need a special photo ID to buy or use a gun. So when I talk about the laws and proposed laws for my home state, please do note these laws are already stricter than those you decry.

Which is kind of my point about having any gun restrictions. One size doesn't fit all. What works in a rural state like VT or WY (where gun laws are very lax) doesn't necessarily make sense in urban areas with dense populations.

And the gun fetishists would like to do away with all the laws already in place in your home state. That's what I'd call extreme.

112 prairiefire  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:20:30pm

re: #98 Obdicut

Yes, but they are needed. I think there should be more acceptance of needing the help.

113 Mich-again  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:23:41pm

re: #104 Dark_Falcon

That's fine as long as there is due process to challenge the ruling, as there is with the Department of Veteran's Affairs.

I think it is telling that he was refused membership at the gun range because they had reason to believe he was a dangerous nutjob. But those same people who refused him membership at their club would scream foul if the same standard they applied for their own safety applied to gun purchases in general.

Oh that crazy fucker can't come in here with a loaded weapon but we defend his right to buy as many weapons and truckloads of ammo that he can afford as long as he goes somewhere else to use them.

114 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:25:05pm

re: #109 Targetpractice

That's the double-edged sword we've created for ourselves in this country, where we're afraid to act to get people with mental illness help because we fear lawsuits or worse for "misinterpreting the signals," but our fear of acting is allowing people with very real mental illnesses to go without treatment and eventually act upon impulses they can't control alone.

Holmes is another Loughner, another Seung-Hui, another time bomb that went off because nobody wanted to admit they could hear the ticking.

I'm not sure Holmes is Loughner. Loughner seems to be legally insane, so far gone he honestly cannot tell right from wrong. Holmes invocation of the Joker as portrayed by Heath Ledger strikes me as someone who knew his act was evil but simply did not care. That is often evidence of a psychiatric illness, but it is not insanity.

Just my 2 cents.

115 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:25:29pm

re: #107 Stanley Sea

Does their malpractice cover wrong diagnosis? I see the NRA going up against any psych who denies any freak a gun. Extremely problematic.

Next thing you know, patriotism will be considered a "mental illness"!

116 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:29:07pm

re: #113 Mich-again

I think it is telling that he was refused membership at the gun range because they had reason to believe he was a dangerous nutjob. But those same people who refused him membership at their club would scream foul if the same standard they applied for their own safety applied to gun purchases in general.

Oh that crazy fucker can't come in here with a loaded weapon but we defend his right to buy as many weapons and truckloads of ammo as long as he goes somewhere else to use them.

The thing is that they trust themselves to act without malice (we can each judge for ourselves how much we think they are right to think that) but they fear any laws to classify someone as a nut are liable to be abused at some point by malicious officials.

117 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:32:09pm

re: #107 Stanley Sea

Does their malpractice cover wrong diagnosis? I see the NRA going up against any psych who denies any freak a gun. Extremely problematic.

It depends. The VA's process for adjudicating someone as mentally ill was actually recently defended by the NRA, though this was done in the context of smacking down an internet meme that held that PTSD/TBI screenings done at VA hospitals would be used to strip vets of their right to own a gun without due process.

118 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:32:40pm

re: #107 Stanley Sea

Due process to challenge the diagnosis would be an important part of the system. That diagnosis can get you locked up, never mind the gun thing.

119 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:32:43pm

re: #113 Mich-again

I think it is telling that he was refused membership at the gun range because they had reason to believe he was a dangerous nutjob. But those same people who refused him membership at their club would scream foul if the same standard they applied for their own safety applied to gun purchases in general.

Oh that crazy fucker can't come in here with a loaded weapon but we defend his right to buy as many weapons and truckloads of ammo that he can afford as long as he goes somewhere else to use them.

Interesting how the gun club denial came because of his bizarre voice message. Other peeps heard this message I assume....his parents?

But to deal with a mentally ill person is impossible in these times. Today on NPR heard a story about the families of these mass killers. Started with Ted Kazynski's brother who turned him in...went on to a mother of a guy who killed in a horrible fashion 5 people (he was put to death by Texas) They have to reconcile what the fuck happened. The mom of the executed is lobbying for mental health. She did EVERYTHING to get her fucked up son help and it didn't happen. So messed up folks.

120 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:33:23pm

re: #116 Dark_Falcon

The thing is that they trust themselves to act without malice (we can each judge for ourselves how much we think they are right to think that) but they fear any laws to classify someone as a nut are liable to be abused at some point by malicious officials.

Any law can be abused, provided one is creative enough in the abuse.

121 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:34:34pm

re: #106 Dark_Falcon

Yes, but Illinois is not one of them. Here you need a special photo ID to buy or use a gun. So when I talk about the laws and proposed laws for my home state, please do note these laws are already stricter than those you decry.

There's nothing in the least bit strict about the Illinois FOID program. You don't even need to take a test to get it, as long as you're qualified to purchase the card is a shall issue item. In Cali they at least make us take a test to get a HSC card. Sure, the test is easy and it's scary as hell that they allow people to miss a certain number of questions, but at least you're forced to demonstrate a modicum of knowledge before you're allowed to buy.

122 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:34:49pm

re: #117 Dark_Falcon

It depends. The VA's process for adjudicating someone as mentally ill was actually recently defended by the NRA, though this was done in the context of smacking down an internet meme that held that PTSD/TBI screenings done at VA hospitals would be used to strip vets of their right to own a gun without due process.

Doesn't help the cause at all. It goes to their desire to let all people be armed. geeze.

123 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:35:49pm

re: #119 Stanley Sea

Interesting how the gun club denial came because of his bizarre voice message. Other peeps heard this message I assume....his parents?

But to deal with a mentally ill person is impossible in these times. Today on NPR heard a story about the families of these mass killers. Started with Ted Kazynski's brother who turned him in...went on to a mother of a guy who killed in a horrible fashion 5 people (he was put to death by Texas) They have to reconcile what the fuck happened. The mom of the executed is lobbying for mental health. She did EVERYTHING to get her fucked up son help and it didn't happen. So messed up folks.

Since he was in current treatment by a competent doctor who discussed him with her colleagues, it would seem we have exhausted the usefulness of the medical approach. The problem, which is real but statistically quite small, isn't going away under the present state of the law or medical art.

124 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:37:15pm

re: #123 Decatur Deb

Since he was in current treatment by a competent doctor who discussed him with her colleagues, it would seem we have exhausted the usefulness of the medical approach. The problem, which is real but statistically quite small, isn't going away under the present state of the law or medical art.

Yah, it goes to lock em up based on my fears. Slippery.

125 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:37:59pm

re: #122 Stanley Sea

Doesn't help the cause at all. It goes to their desire to let all people be armed. geeze.

What do you mean? You bolded that last section but I can't figure out its relation to your post.

126 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:39:16pm

re: #125 Dark_Falcon

What do you mean? You bolded that last section but I can't figure out its relation to your post.

The NRA will support the right to own a gun, even if person is PTSD. Am I misunderstanding?

127 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:40:34pm
128 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:43:50pm

OT sweetness. Grilled on my baby grill for the 2nd nite. What fun I'm having LIVING ALONE. Oh hell to the yeah.

129 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:44:12pm

re: #127 Stanley Sea

[Embedded content]

Consider for a sec, Emily, that the desegregation came almost a century after Plessy v. Ferguson and Jim Crow. Those folks thinking they could hold back the civil rights movement, that they'd ultimately prevail, weren't as crazy as they seem in hindsight.

130 engineer cat  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:44:42pm

watching my 1920s tru-tone buescher soprano on the ebay like a hawk cuz i know somebody is just gonna come in and swope like putney in the last two minutes and outbid me

131 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:45:06pm

re: #126 Stanley Sea

The NRA will support the right to own a gun, even if person is PTSD. Am I misunderstanding?

Lots of people have PTSD. Rape victims being stalked by their rapists are often PTSD, they also have a legit need to protect themselves. Whatever scale we use should reflect the complexities of real world diagnoses. What one really wants to identify is the presence of delusion, breaks from objective reality, certain fixations, homicidal / suicidal ideation, etc.

132 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:45:44pm

re: #130 engineer cat

watching my 1920s tru-tone buescher soprano on the ebay like a hawk cuz i know somebody is just gonna come in and swope like putney in the last two minutes and outbid me

when does it end? There's an asshole program that sweeps in @ the end...

good luck.

133 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:46:39pm

re: #131 goddamnedfrank

Lots of people have PTSD. Rape victims being stalked by their rapists are often PTSD, they also have a legit need to protect themselves. Whatever scale we use should reflect the complexities of real world diagnoses. What one really wants to identify is the presence of delusion, breaks from objective reality, certain fixations, homicidal / suicidal ideation, etc.

Which of course illustrates the problem of regulating firearms, because there's a million and one ways in which a "law-abiding citizen" can still be a danger to himself or everyone around him. One-size-fits-all laws leave too many gaps, but case-by-case in a country with 300+ million people bogs down the system and leads to accusations that the law is stripping people of their rights.

134 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:47:46pm

re: #126 Stanley Sea

The NRA will support the right to own a gun, even if person is PTSD. Am I misunderstanding?

Yes, you are. First, a bit of background: The VA routinely screens recent veterans for PTSD and mild Traumatic Brain Injury (mTBI). The rumor the NRA was smacking down claimed those screenings were being used to deny people the right to own a gun. PTSD is not a disqualifier unless it is severe, as I understand it. The NRA was saying that the VA can only take action to bar someone from owning a gun in such severe cases via an established procedure which contained what the NRA felt was due process. The article acknowledged that such an ability was needed in cases of severe PTSD. The main thrust of the piece was to make clear that the Department of Veteran's Affairs could not take away a person's right to own a firearm without due process, contrary to a circulated internet rumor.

135 engineer cat  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:48:06pm

re: #132 Stanley Sea

when does it end? There's an asshole program that sweeps in @ the end...

good luck.

thanks

the moment of swope is about 2pm fri

136 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:49:03pm

re: #131 goddamnedfrank

Lots of people have PTSD. Rape victims being stalked by their rapists are often PTSD, they also have a legit need to protect themselves. Whatever scale we use should reflect the complexities of real world diagnoses. What one really wants to identify is the presence of delusion, breaks from objective reality, certain fixations, homicidal / suicidal ideation, etc.

Which I think can be extremely difficult diagnosis-is. It's a terrible situation. Most people seeing therapists/psychs are pretty good at concealing the real truths. (been there)

137 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:55:40pm

I copied this from the DROS form used for gun buys

IS PURCHASER A MENTAL PATIENT OR ON LEAVE OF ABSENCE FROM A MENTAL HOSPITAL AS DESCRIBED IN WELFARE
AND INSTITUTIONS CODE SECTION 8100?

HAS PURCHASER EVER BEEN ADJUDICATED BY A COURT TO BE A DANGER TO OTHERS, FOUND NOT GUILTY BY REASON
OF INSANITY, FOUND INCOMPETENT TO STAND TRIAL, OR PLACED UNDER A CONSERVATORSHIP, PURSUANT TO
WELFARE AND INSTITUTIONS CODE SECTION 8103?

IS PURCHASER CURRENTLY THE SUBJECT OF ANY RESTRAINING ORDER PURSUANT TO FAMILY CODE SECTION 6380?

138 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:59:57pm

re: #136 Stanley Sea

Most people seeing therapists/psychs are pretty good at concealing the real truths. (been there)

I think it has a lot to do with what's driving the visit to the counselor in the first place, internal or external forces. I figure that people are probably more prone to lie when they feel forced or leveraged into the situation. Perhaps counterintuitively it's the most self aware people who get the most counseling, because they're going to be the quickest to recognized on their own that there's something genuinely wrong that they need help working out.

139 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:00:40pm

I think we are just going to have to deal with the mentally ill killers. Just don't see a solution that will fly. So many murder/suicides lately. Is the news just reporting them more?

140 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:11:47pm

good night now!

141 Mich-again  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:11:52pm

re: #139 Stanley Sea

I think we are just going to have to deal with the mentally ill killers.

We don't just allow it, we enable it and promote it.

142 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:11:56pm

re: #137 Daniel Ballard

I copied this from the DROS form used for gun buys

IS PURCHASER A MENTAL PATIENT OR ON LEAVE OF ABSENCE FROM A MENTAL HOSPITAL AS DESCRIBED IN WELFARE
AND INSTITUTIONS CODE SECTION 8100?

HAS PURCHASER EVER BEEN ADJUDICATED BY A COURT TO BE A DANGER TO OTHERS, FOUND NOT GUILTY BY REASON
OF INSANITY, FOUND INCOMPETENT TO STAND TRIAL, OR PLACED UNDER A CONSERVATORSHIP, PURSUANT TO
WELFARE AND INSTITUTIONS CODE SECTION 8103?

IS PURCHASER CURRENTLY THE SUBJECT OF ANY RESTRAINING ORDER PURSUANT TO FAMILY CODE SECTION 6380?

Who is supposed to give truthful answers to these questions. My twelve year-old will look my dead in the eye and say he brushed his teeth. (I check his toothbrush.) My eleven year-old just tried to tell me that he wasn't putting the exact same clothes back on after a shower. (I faced him down.)

How can we check these answers?

143 Acemarilllion  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:12:09pm

Sarah Palin = overly ambitious soccer mom way out of her league

144 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:12:55pm

re: #137 Daniel Ballard

Here's the cited section 8100 of the Welfare and Institutions code. It deals with inpatients who in the opinion of their therapists are a threat to themselves or others and outpatients who've communicated "to a licensed psychotherapist, as defined in subdivisions (a) to (e), inclusive, of Section 1010 of the Evidence Code, a serious threat of physical violence against a reasonably identifiable victim or victims."

I'm fairly certain Colorado has a similar rule and that whatever it was Holmes said in the course of his therapy it didn't actually meet this threshold.

Edit: added link

145 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:16:03pm

re: #142 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Who is supposed to give truthful answers to these questions. My twelve year-old will look my dead in the eye and say he brushed his teeth. (I check his toothbrush.) My eleven year-old just tried to tell me that he wasn't putting the exact same clothes back on after a shower. (I faced him down.)

How can we check these answers?

In Cali it's the responsibility of therapist to notify local law enforcement and for local law enforcement to notify State DOJ, who maintains the database DROS checks run against.

146 Mich-again  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:17:04pm

re: #143 Acemarilllion

Sarah Palin = overly ambitious soccer mom way out of her league

I bet she was a fine TV news weather reporter as in make a halfass prediction/guess that no one with any sense will rely on or complain about when it turns out you were dead wrong.

147 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:19:27pm

re: #145 goddamnedfrank

In Cali it's the responsibility of therapist to notify local law enforcement and for local law enforcement to notify State DOJ, who maintains the database DROS checks run against.

I was wondering about that; you can't exactly expect people who intend to use guns for harm will say so outright.

148 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:22:37pm

Heh. Just decided to check on the twelve year old. At least he didn't lie to me this time. He just hadn't brushed his teeth "yet." Considering that he was already in bed with the lights out, I'm not sure when "yet" was going to be.

149 prairiefire  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:23:04pm

re: #128 Stanley Sea

Fantastico!

150 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:23:54pm

One thing I'd like to see the California HSC test implement is weighted questions. If you don't know that a cable lock is used to prevent a gun from firing - fine that can be taught. On the other hand if you get to the point of walking into a gun store and paying to take the test without knowing what a safe direction is or the specific and narrow set of circumstances in which it's permissible to shoot someone - then god help us all.

151 Mich-again  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:24:03pm

re: #144 goddamnedfrank

I'm fairly certain Colorado has a similar rule and that whatever it was Holmes said in the course of his therapy it didn't actually meet this threshold.

I'm fairly certain that whatever he said to the counselor would have been enough reason for a gun club to refuse him membership but it wouldn't have been enough to restrict him from legally buying a cache of weapons and ammo.

All those badasses with their guns at the gun range wouldn't let him around them . But hells yeah, they'd set him loose on the streets no problem.

152 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:26:09pm

re: #151 Mich-again

I'm fairly certain that whatever he said to the counselor would have been enough reason for a gun club to refuse him membership but it wouldn't have been enough to restrict him from legally buying a cache of weapons and ammo.

All those badasses with their guns at the gun range wouldn't let him around them . But hells yeah, they'd set him loose on the streets no problem.

That's a good point. One should probably be able to demonstrate to a certain number of their peers that they're a safe bet before being allowed to purchase an arsenal.

153 prairiefire  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:26:32pm

We had a cloud swirl today with no rain in it. Drought, drought, drought.

154 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:27:47pm

I am so tired of Sarah Palin.

you?

Don't you think these guys are so much better looking?

155 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:30:38pm

re: #154 ggt

I am so tired of Sarah Palin.

you?

Don't you think these guys are so much better looking?

For now. When they grow up though, they'll still be beautiful, but they'll then be deadly. And a deliberate deadly, not stupid deadly like Palin.

156 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:32:12pm

re: #155 Dark_Falcon

For now. When they grow up though, they'll still be beautiful, but they'll then be deadly. And a deliberate deadly, not stupid deadly like Palin.

Yes, but that's actually what they're SUPPOSED to do. Tigers: functional. Sarah Palin: not so much.

157 Mich-again  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:32:36pm

re: #152 goddamnedfrank

That's a good point. One should probably be able to demonstrate to a certain number of their peers that they're a safe bet before being allowed to purchase an arsenal.

I'd be OK with that. But the NRA et al wouldn't. Like I said, the prevailing attitude from the gun lobby is Oh well, the occasional mass murder rampage is preferable to any new restrictions on people secretly stockpiling guns and ammo.

158 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:34:40pm

re: #152 goddamnedfrank

That's a good point. One should probably be able to demonstrate to a certain number of their peers that they're a safe bet before being allowed to purchase an arsenal.

Do something like co-signing on a loan, requiring a person wishing to obtain a license or purchase a gun to find either another person or a gun club willing to be held accountable for the safe usage of the gun(s).

159 freetoken  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:35:19pm

Seems appropriate for this thread:

The Startling Accuracy of Referring to Politicians as 'Psychopaths'

The characteristics that define clinical psychopathy are many of the same that make effective leaders.

160 uncah91  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:41:05pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

These are direct quotes from Quinn's amendatory veto:

BREAK

These would outlaw any AR/AK derivative even ones designed to take no more than 10 rounds. Moreover, that 'shroud' part for rifles would seem to outlaw many handguards on common hunting rifles.

Full text of the proposal is here.

I'm really not sure what the fascination with pistol grips and folding stocks is about, when handguns are legal.

But as far as common hunting rifles being illegal under proposed bans, that seems common sense to me, as "assault" weapons is the wrong focus. If a hunting rifle easily takes a magazine that can hold 30 rounds and is semi auto, why does is matter that the stock is chestnut instead of black?

161 uncah91  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:44:16pm

re: #157 Mich-again

I'd be OK with that. But the NRA et al wouldn't. Like I said, the prevailing attitude from the gun lobby is Oh well, the occasional mass murder rampage is preferable to any new restrictions on people secretly stockpiling guns and ammo.

I'm not sure what "stockpiling" has to do with with it. Past a certain point, it hardly matters.

162 dragonath  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:47:45pm

re: #159 freetoken

Now they tell us?

Seriously though. I'm dubious about the need to pathologize everybody, especially in a society where people like Rick Santorum and Mitt Romney are considered "normal".

163 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:48:05pm

re: #161 uncah91

I'm not sure what "stockpiling" has to do with with it. Past a certain point, it hardly matters.

Stockpiling will make total sense to you when the big robot from the future comes thru a portal totally naked and looking up everyone in the phone book with your name and killing them.

///

164 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:49:09pm

re: #160 uncah91

I'm really not sure what the fascination with pistol grips and folding stocks is about, when handguns are legal.

But as far as common hunting rifles being illegal under proposed bans, that seems common sense to me, as "assault" weapons is the wrong focus. If a hunting rifle easily takes a magazine that can hold 30 rounds and is semi auto, why does is matter that the stock is chestnut instead of black?

But the weapons I was referring to were being banned for having a handguard. Admittedly, I would not favor the ban under any likely circumstances anyway.

165 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:49:26pm

re: #161 uncah91

I'm not sure what "stockpiling" has to do with with it. Past a certain point, it hardly matters.

I'd argue that it should be approached much like sale of ammonia-based fertilizer was after McVeigh: A person who's never owned a firearm buying 6,000 rounds of ammunition in a short period of time should send up a red flag and warrant at least a visit by the local PD to ask what so much ammunition is for.

166 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:53:01pm

bbl

167 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:53:37pm

re: #165 Targetpractice

I'd argue that it should be approached much like sale of ammonia-based fertilizer was after McVeigh: A person who's never owned a firearm buying 6,000 rounds of ammunition in a short period of time should send up a red flag and warrant at least a visit by the local PD to ask what so much ammunition is for.

And when the guy replies "5th Amendment", what then?

168 Digital Display  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:54:42pm

Hiya Lizards! It's brutal in Oklahoma..111 degrees here today. I'm on a countdown of 8 hours till I depart for 2 weeks. I'll be checking in here from various points of interest on the trip.

169 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:54:45pm

re: #167 Dark_Falcon

And when the guy replies "5th Amendment", what then?

Indeed. How does one protect against lone wolves when the law provides plenty of shields for said wolves from even cursory investigation?

170 Mich-again  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:56:49pm

re: #161 uncah91

I'm not sure what "stockpiling" has to do with with it. Past a certain point, it hardly matters.

When the purpose of a weapon is self defense, I'm not sure why one would need to buy thousands of rounds of ammunition for it.

I think its ironic how the same people who think the TSA is unconstitutional because the Constitution doesn't specifically mention airplanes also think it is their constitutional right to buy a pallet of ammo over the internet with a credit card and then have it delivered to their apartment doorstep by UPS.

171 freetoken  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:57:16pm

re: #168 Digital Display

Hiya Lizards! It's brutal in Oklahoma..111 degrees here today. ....

James Inhofe says you're an ALARMIST!!

172 gwangung  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:57:37pm

re: #169 Targetpractice

Indeed. How does one protect against lone wolves when the law provides plenty of shields for said wolves from even cursory investigation?

would this be something that would allow heightened scrutiny by police?

173 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:59:03pm

re: #169 Targetpractice

Indeed. How does one protect against lone wolves when the law provides plenty of shields for said wolves from even cursory investigation?

I'm not sure. The basic problem is that police have a hard time being proactive when there is not ongoing criminal activity, and with Holmes there wasn't. Until he wedged open the emergency exit to get his murder kit he had not broken the law and thus the law's ability to investigate him was very sharply limited.

174 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:59:42pm

re: #172 gwangung

would this be something that would allow heightened scrutiny by police?

To what end? Would the PD have put a guy on Holmes at all times to keep an eye on him? Tracked his whereabouts?

175 uncah91  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:00:15pm

re: #164 Dark_Falcon

But the weapons I was referring to were being banned for having a handguard. Admittedly, I would not favor the ban under any likely circumstances anyway.

Well, if the ban is functional and makes sense, it hardly matters whether the rifle in question is a hunting rifle. So, attack the ban on functional grounds, not whether it would affect "hunting" rifles...

176 uncah91  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:03:23pm

re: #165 Targetpractice

I'd argue that it should be approached much like sale of ammonia-based fertilizer was after McVeigh: A person who's never owned a firearm buying 6,000 rounds of ammunition in a short period of time should send up a red flag and warrant at least a visit by the local PD to ask what so much ammunition is for.

But if he had bought 200 rounds for each weapon, would the attack have been any less deadly? What is the function of concentrating on the number of rounds? It doesn't really have a functional affect on the next "madman" attack.

177 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:06:23pm

re: #168 Digital Display

Wave Bye Bye to Oklahoma!

178 Mich-again  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:07:36pm

re: #173 Dark_Falcon

I'm not sure. The basic problem is that police have a hard time being proactive when there is not ongoing criminal activity, and with Holmes there wasn't. Until he wedged open the emergency exit to get his murder kit he had not broken the law and thus the law's ability to investigate him was very sharply limited.

If he hadn't broken any laws up to that point, then why did the gun club refuse him membership? Oh thats right, the owner of the gun club had good reason to think Holmes was a nutjob and so he didn't want to let Holmes around the club with a loaded weapon.

I wonder how the gun club members would react if the government told them they couldn't reject a membership application from a lawful gun owner. My guess is that they would squeal like stuck pigs. We don't want crazy fuckers with loaded weapons in our club!

179 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:09:24pm

re: #176 uncah91

But if he had bought 200 rounds for each weapon, would the attack have been any less deadly? What is the function of concentrating on the number of rounds? It doesn't really have a functional affect on the next "madman" attack.

It's about narrowing the focus to those whose behavior warrants scrutiny. Cops would have reason to do an informal investigation, such as asking that gun club why they rejected him for membership or asking the psychiatrist if there might be reason to believe he's mentally ill.

180 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:09:36pm

re: #178 Mich-again

If he hadn't broken any laws up to that point, then why did the gun club refuse him membership? Oh thats right, the owner of the gun club had good reason to think Holmes was a nutjob and so he didn't want to let Holmes around the club with a loaded weapon.

I wonder how the gun club members would react if the government told them they couldn't reject a membership application from a lawful gun owner. My guess is that they would squeal like stuck pigs. We don't want crazy fuckers with loaded weapons in our club!

A club can reject an application to join based on State of Mind, as long as that is not a cover for denial based on membership in a protected category.

181 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:13:29pm

re: #179 Targetpractice

It's about narrowing the focus to those whose behavior warrants scrutiny. Cops would have reason to do an informal investigation, such as asking that gun club why they rejected him for membership or asking the psychiatrist if there might be reason to believe he's mentally ill.

The former (gun club), yes. The psychiatrist could not answer such a question unless she honestly believed he posed a threat to himself or others. This is due to Doctor/Patient privilege. If the psychiatrist were to issue such a warning to police, that amounts to a serious risk on her part. Such actions are reviewed by a state's medical board, and if they find the doctor's disclosure improper then the consequences are high, up to and including decertification.

182 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:16:49pm

re: #181 Dark_Falcon

The former (gun club), yes. The psychiatrist could not answer such a question unless she honestly believed he posed a threat to himself or others. This is due to Doctor/Patient privilege. If the psychiatrist were to issue such a warning to police, that amounts to a serious risk on her part. Such actions are reviewed by a state's medical board, and if they find the doctor's disclosure improper then the consequences are high, up to and including decertification.

Yes, unless she honestly believed he posed a threat. And no doubt she kept herself in denial for awhile, telling herself that she was seeing something that wasn't there, that perhaps what she thought of as potentially dangerous behavior was simply a guy frustrated with life or having a hard time due to difficulties with his studies.

Why? Because the system has the power to yank her license away if she makes a bad call. The system discourages people from making such judgment calls and encourages silence in order to avoid punishment.

183 Mich-again  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:19:48pm

re: #180 Dark_Falcon

A club can reject an application to join based on State of Mind, as long as that is not a cover for denial based on membership in a protected category.

Check. So a gun club can reject a membership application based on a hunch, but gun merchants should not be allowed to reject a sale based on a similar hunch. As for bullets&shells.com, they don't need to give a shit where the UPS is delivering the ammo as long as the buyer's credit card worked. Its all right there in the 2nd Amendment.

184 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:21:06pm

Missile Defense Staff Warned to Stop Surfing Porn Sites

The Pentagon’s Missile Defense Agency warned its employees and contractors last week to stop using their government computers to surf the Internet for pornographic sites, according to the agency’s executive director.

In a one-page memo, Executive Director John James Jr. wrote that in recent months government employees and contractors were detected “engaging in inappropriate use of the MDA network.”

“Specifically, there have been instances of employees and contractors accessing websites, or transmitting messages, containing pornographic or sexually explicit images,” James wrote in the July 27 memo obtained by Bloomberg News.

“These actions are not only unprofessional, they reflect time taken away from designated duties, are in clear violation of federal and DoD and regulations, consume network resources and can compromise the security of the network though the introduction of malware or malicious code,” he wrote.

Individuals identified as violating the rules face referral for “appropriate” disciplinary action, he wrote. They put “their security clearances in jeopardy, and are subject to suspension and removal from federal service or MDA sponsored contracts.”

Agency spokesman Rick Lehner said in an e-mail that the memo was written in response to “a few people downloading material from some websites that were known to have had virus and malware issues.”

A government cybersecurity specialist, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because such work is classified, said that many pornographic websites are infected and criminals and foreign intelligence services such as Russia’s use them to gain access to and harvest data from government and corporate computer networks.

185 uncah91  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:22:51pm

re: #179 Targetpractice

It's about narrowing the focus to those whose behavior warrants scrutiny. Cops would have reason to do an informal investigation, such as asking that gun club why they rejected him for membership or asking the psychiatrist if there might be reason to believe he's mentally ill.

But, why do you think those buying in bulk "warrant scrutiny"? You understand that 99.9% or more of the bulk purchases made are perfectly legit? You would just create busy work for someone, piss off gun owners and almost assuredly catch no one, right?

186 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:24:12pm

re: #182 Targetpractice

Yes, unless she honestly believed he posed a threat. And no doubt she kept herself in denial for awhile, telling herself that she was seeing something that wasn't there, that perhaps what she thought of as potentially dangerous behavior was simply a guy frustrated with life or having a hard time due to difficulties with his studies.

Why? Because the system has the power to yank her license away if she makes a bad call. The system discourages people from making such judgment calls and encourages silence in order to avoid punishment.

That last is a judgement American society has made, that protecting individual privacy holds the priority. If the rules were to be loosened, those who have mental issues and know they need help might be deterred from seeking it by the specter of the police being told about some dark dream they shared with their therapist. Such a disclosure could hold dire consequences in the hands of a prosecutor or detective who saw an opportunity to gin a charge of a murder plot, gain favorable publicity and pad their conviction rate.

Admittedly, that last line takes things a bit overboard, but its the kind of thing changes in favor of disclosure would have people thinking. And that sort of abuse likely would occur at some point, even if only as an isolated case.

187 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:24:56pm

re: #184 Kragar

Missile Defense Staff Warned to Stop Surfing Porn Sites

[headdesk]

188 Mich-again  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:25:57pm

re: #181 Dark_Falcon

If the psychiatrist were to issue such a warning to police, that amounts to a serious risk on her part. Such actions are reviewed by a state's medical board, and if they find the doctor's disclosure improper then the consequences are high, up to and including decertification.

If a teacher does not report suspected child abuse to the authorities then they could find themselves in trouble with the law. I understand why medical records and patient-doctor conversations should be kept secret, but I think once a medical professional has reason to believe a patient is a threat to themselves and/or others, then they have a duty to report their information to law enforcement.

189 ReamWorks SKG  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:26:12pm

She really says "lamestream media?" I had no idea! I thought that's what satirists put in her mouth.

190 freetoken  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:27:20pm

re: #184 Kragar

Missile Defense Staff Warned to Stop Surfing Porn Sites

What constitutes "porn".

Heck, most of the images of Kim Kardashian found via Google would be considered offensive in large parts of the world.

191 Mich-again  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:27:58pm

re: #189 ReamWorks SKG

She really says "lamestream media?" I had no idea! I thought that's what satirists put in her mouth.

She said "evidently" 3 times in one sentence. Funny how close evidently sounds like eleventy.

192 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:33:34pm

re: #190 freetoken

What constitutes "porn".

Heck, most of the images of Kim Kardashian found via Google would be considered offensive in large parts of the world.

After working on military networks for the last 15 years, I can honestly say pictures of Kim hardly qualify as porn compared to some of the shit I've seen.

193 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:35:53pm

re: #186 Dark_Falcon

That last is a judgement American society has made, that protecting individual privacy holds the priority. If the rules were to be loosened, those who have mental issues and know they need help might be deterred from seeking it by the specter of the police being told about some dark dream they shared with their therapist. Such a disclosure could hold dire consequences in the hands of a prosecutor or detective who saw an opportunity to gin a charge of a murder plot, gain favorable publicity and pad their conviction rate.

Admittedly, that last line takes things a bit overboard, but its the kind of thing changes in favor of disclosure would have people thinking. And that sort of abuse likely would occur at some point, even if only as an isolated case.

And instead we're left with a situation where everyone around the guy can see that something's wrong upstairs, but nobody can do anything because the law protects him until he decides he needs help. Such that when he finally does act out and harm others, the lack of action seems less like prudence and more like indifference.

194 uncah91  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:37:17pm

Night, Lizards.

195 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:37:50pm

re: #192 Kragar

After working on military networks for the last 15 years, I can honestly say pictures of Kim hardly qualify as porn compared to some of the shit I've seen.

You've seen things that we wouldn't believe?

196 Mich-again  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:42:14pm

re: #193 Targetpractice

And instead we're left with a situation where everyone around the guy can see that something's wrong upstairs, but nobody can do anything because the law protects him until he decides he needs help. Such that when he finally does act out and harm others, the lack of action seems less like prudence and more like indifference.

The killer's civil rights are more important than that of the victims. The creed of the NRA.

197 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:42:17pm

re: #195 Targetpractice

You've seen things that we wouldn't believe?

I could scar your mind permanently.

198 JamesWI  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:43:48pm

How many of the world's countries can you name in 15 minutes?

I got a 96.......out of 196. Though I did get sidetracked by the fact that French Guiana is not technically considered a country.....I was looking up it's official name, French name, nothing worked :P

199 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:44:12pm

re: #197 Kragar

I could scar your mind permanently.

I've already seen goatse.cx and tubgirl, thanks.

200 Mich-again  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:47:48pm

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of victims and bystanders" I think that is the NRA mission statement. /

201 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:48:31pm

re: #196 Mich-again

The killer's civil rights are more important than that of the victims. The creed of the NRA.

That just isn't true. The disclosure rules psychiatrists must abide by owe more to the ACLU than the NRA. They are not about guns, but were written to protect individual privacy against government intrusion. So the complaint that they do not allow authorities to be proactive must be met the the classic phrase: "That's not a bug, it's a feature."

Many people are more afraid of abusive government than active shooters, and honestly, I count myself as one of them. An active shooter kills but a relative few, whereas an abusive government oppresses everyone.

202 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:56:06pm

re: #201 Dark_Falcon

That just isn't true. The disclosure rules psychiatrists must abide by owe more to the ACLU than the NRA. They are not about guns, but were written to protect individual privacy against government intrusion. So the complaint that they do not allow authorities to be proactive must be met the the classic phrase: "That's not a bug, it's a feature."

Many people are more afraid of abusive government than active shooters, and honestly, I count myself as one of them. An active shooter kills but a relative few, whereas an abusive government oppresses everyone.

Hence the point of the article I linked to up above, namely that law enforcement can't simply stop lone wolves without further sacrifice of our civil liberties and privacy. But we've become frozen with paralysis due to the fear that any future attempts at gun control will lead to a repeat of '94, leaving us without any unified effort to prevent future shootings like Aurora. So the only conclusion is that yes, we're gonna have to get used to the idea of mass shootings because there's no way we're going to prevent them in the current environment.

203 Mich-again  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:56:49pm

re: #201 Dark_Falcon

Many people are more afraid of abusive government than active shooters, and honestly, I count myself as one of them. An active shooter kills but a relative few, whereas an abusive government oppresses everyone.

I'm sure those words will be very reassuring to the friends and family of the victims of the Aurora CO mass murder rampage.

Yeah it sucks that your kid was shot up for no reason at a movie theater, but it could be worse! The Gubmit could be abusive and try to oppress legal gun owners!!!

204 Mich-again  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:59:10pm

re: #202 Targetpractice

So the only conclusion is that yes, we're gonna have to get used to the idea of mass shootings because there's no way we're going to prevent them in the current environment.

That conclusion sucks toilet water through a pixie stix.

205 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 10:59:34pm

re: #198 JamesWI

How many of the world's countries can you name in 15 minutes?

I got a 96.......out of 196. Though I did get sidetracked by the fact that French Guiana is not technically considered a country.....I was looking up it's official name, French name, nothing worked :P

108

206 Kronocide  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:00:33pm

I don't know what's worse, the supposed tyrannical government or the ideologically invested fuckwads railing against the supposed tyrannical government.

207 JamesWI  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:01:16pm

re: #205 Kragar

108

Cheater./

208 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:01:23pm

re: #199 Targetpractice

I've already seen goatse.cx and tubgirl, thanks.

Pff, thats nothing.

Multiple AA batteries.

Insertion.

Penis.

209 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:02:08pm

re: #208 Kragar

Pff, thats nothing.

Multiple AA batteries.

Insertion.

Penis.

...

Anybody needs me, I'll be pouring some bleach into my eyes.

//

210 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:03:31pm

re: #208 Kragar

I'm going to sign off before I suffer from nausea. Goodnight, all.

211 JamesWI  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:03:56pm

re: #209 Targetpractice

...

Anybody needs me, I'll be pouring some bleach into my eyes.

//

Ahhhh......to think back to the days when I thought Lemon Party was gross.

212 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:07:48pm

Of course, my favorite incident remains the one time we found the only person surfing porn on the entire base one afternoon.

It was kind of easy to find him because the entire base network was supposed to be locked down.

It being the afternoon of the 9/11 attacks.

Yeah, that guy had fun.

213 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:09:27pm

re: #212 Kragar

Of course, my favorite incident remains the one time we found the only person surfing porn on the entire base one afternoon.

It was kind of easy to find him because the entire base network was supposed to be locked down.

It being the afternoon of the 9/11 attacks.

Yeah, that guy had fun.

Yeah, I imagine that the drawing and quartering that followed was quite a sight.

214 Kragar  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:14:11pm

re: #213 Targetpractice

Yeah, I imagine that the drawing and quartering that followed was quite a sight.

The guy was an E-7, scheduled for promotion October 1st. We called our CO, he called the base Commanding General, and the MPs dragged the guy in for a court martial in less than an hour.

215 Targetpractice  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:18:43pm

re: #214 Kragar

The guy was an E-7, scheduled for promotion October 1st. We called our CO, he called the base Commanding General, and the MPs dragged the guy in for a court martial in less than an hour.

9/11 will hold a special place in his memory for sure, but not for the same reason as the rest of us.

216 dragonath  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:44:14pm

The public radio station had a story about a leaking natural gas well in Western Pennsylvania. Evidently the well was poorly capped, and outside experts have said a "methane plume" manifested itself in some poor guy's property.

The fracking process is like trying to hammer a nail - through your hand.

217 freetoken  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 11:48:59pm

re: #216 Fred Galt

The public radio station had a story about a leaking natural gas well in Western Pennsylvania.

And you believe those MARXISTS!!? They just hate natural gas because it is American, and they hate America.

218 dragonath  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 12:03:29am

Centralia must be full of heartwarming American goodness then! Yum.

219 freetoken  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 12:15:02am

BTW, I missed this and from the lack of postings about it I conclude that most people missed it, but good ol' Pat Buchanan was in full despair mode (again) over... the browning of America, published 4 days ago.

It's such a blatantly racialist view of America... which of course the likes of Jonah Goldberg will pooh-pooh as being of no consequence and thus we shouldn't worry about it ... that I wonder if we've just become too used to all of this nonsense.

Buchanan writes:

[...]

Yet in their best years, like 2004, Republicans lose the Hispanic vote 3-to-2. In bad years, like 2008, they lose it 2-to-1. Whites are already a minority in California, and Hispanics will eventually become the majority.

Say goodbye to the Golden Land.

Asian-Americans voted 3-to-2 for Obama, black Americans 24-to-1. The Asian population in California and the nation is growing rapidly. [...]

Whites, already a minority in our two most populous states, will be less than half the U.S. population by 2041 and a minority in 10 states by 2020.

Consider now the Electoral College picture.

Of the seven mega-states, California, New York and Illinois appear lost to the GOP. Pennsylvania has not gone Republican since 1988. Ohio and Florida, both crucial, are now swing states. Whites have become a minority in Texas. When Texas goes, America goes.

[...]

Buchanan, besides the obsession with race, has equated America to the Republican party! According to Buchanan:

White People == America == Republican party.

Then he goes on to lament social programs to help the poor, lament immigration, restates the lie that lower income people don't pay taxes, laments the social changes in the 1960's.

Anybody with any background at all in reading commentary on contemporary America will see Buchanan's writing clearly for what it is.

The commenters over at Townhall on this Buchanan article are using it to see whatever they want to... plenty of racists, some, who may well be "liberal" commenters who come in to stir up the Townhall locals, lamenting Buchanan, and getting the heated answers one expects... and then of course plenty of God-types who glom onto Buchanan's lament over the rise of atheism.


It's all a reminder of how glacially slow change occurs in this country, and that a lot of money is still left to be made off the gullible.

220 freetoken  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 12:23:21am

And speaking of racists ... I see Derbyshire is quite prolific these days. His latest article is a full on praise for a white-England-as-victim novel from Derek Turner called Sea Changes.

Derbyshire praises the book because it touches all the right hot-buttons for the atavistic right - Muslim immigration into Christian lands, nasty old UN, political correctness, etc.

It's just more of the same old stuff... now masquerading as serious fiction.

221 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 12:24:22am

Even Karl Rove got slapped down for implying that vocally embracing birtherism was not such a good idea and for implying that Christine O'Donnell might not be an electable candidate.

And it is a scary day when people like Karl Rove and Dick Cheney become the Voices of Reason within the GOP.

222 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 12:31:13am

re: #143 Acemarilllion

Sarah Palin = overly ambitious soccer mom way out of her league

Look, she seemed to do a reasonable job a governor of Alaska (with a population equal to that of Louisville, Kentucky), she was jut grossly underqualified at a national level.

And even if you argue that Alaska is nonetheless the largest state by area, keep in mid that more than two-thirds of it is federal or tribal land.

223 freetoken  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 12:33:50am
MP3 Audio
224 dragonath  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 12:46:50am

It's interesting that almost all the things Buchanan went on about in his 1992 convention speech are pretty much doctrinaire for Republicans now.

Youtube Video
225 freetoken  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 12:49:46am

re: #224 Fred Galt

Pat Buchanan - one of Richard Nixon's lasting gifts to the world.

226 researchok  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 1:03:45am

Morning, all

227 freetoken  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 1:04:36am
MP3 Audio
228 researchok  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 1:07:03am

re: #223 freetoken

Great lyrics.

229 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 1:08:20am

re: #201 Dark_Falcon

Many people are more afraid of abusive government than active shooters, and honestly, I count myself as one of them. An active shooter kills but a relative few, whereas an abusive government oppresses everyone.

Hypothetical oppression trumps actual dead people, actual maimed people, and actual mourners, in other words.

I mean, how stupid is it the a publicly-known lobbying organization with a fucking membership roster and mailing list is posturing itself as the minutemen prepared to fight as noble insurgents?

These days oppressive governments do not come to "take your guns." If you're labelled a threat or an inconvenience, they bust into your domicile at three in the morning and men in combat gear stuff you into trunk of a Ford Falcon. They electro-shock your genitals, put a bullet in your brain, and dump your body in front of your parents' house. Then they go do the same to everyone you mentioned while you were getting electrocuted.
The old school method of getting people to surrender weapons was to kill someone--and their family--publically and ugly enough to scare most people into compliance. A gun incident happens? Reprisal time. Wash, rinse, repeat.

What would an actual oppressive regime do faced with the NRA? Interrogate, arrest and/or kill everyone on the mailing list. Annouce anyone that slips away as a traitor or terrorist...not because it's true, but because it makes sure the public knows they'll die ugly if they assist the insurgents. You know...the same shit that happens every year, all over the world, in totalitarian nations, to anyone perceived as a threat.

This entire meme of how oppression and insurgency occur is horseshit: its an according-to-Hoyle fantasy of a modern governmental military recapitulating what the British did in the 13 colonies. And guess what? Even at the time the British were softballing the colonists. The Irish, the Scots, and eventually a globe full of brown people got the normal round of rape, torture, and arbitrary civilian killing.

Even the modern great tragedies of ATF intervention and the "coming to get your guns" meme, Ruby Ridge and Waco, occurred because the agents involved actually tried besiege and negotiate with the white supremacists and child-molesting apocalypse cult rather than do what an actual oppressive regime would do--and what actual oppressive regimes do daily--level the fucking building and set fire to the rubble for good measure.

What the NRA and GOA are selling is a power fantasy, where the villains operate according to a hackneyed script that allows the heroes to not be immediately steamrolled. It's pure fucking fiction, and the evidence that it's pure fiction is what's occurring everywhere else in the world. The only way you can believe what the NRA is selling is if you've been completely sheltered from how actual state violence occurs.

230 researchok  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 1:12:37am

re: #227 freetoken

I want a pack of Gauloise, a snifter of cognac and a beret.

Then I want to tell everyone who wil listen life has no meaning, No one really cares, we are all going to die and pose the question- 'Can you ever really know anyone? Really know them?'

231 freetoken  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 1:27:26am

Rounding out my play list tonight is Dvorak's Requiem, here is the opening mvt.:

MP3 Audio
232 researchok  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 1:40:09am

re: #231 freetoken

Superb.

Great choice.

233 Kragar  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 1:52:46am

Tool - Eulogy

Youtube Video
234 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 1:55:56am

re: #201 Dark_Falcon

Many people are more afraid of abusive government than active shooters, and honestly, I count myself as one of them. An active shooter kills but a relative few, whereas an abusive government oppresses everyone.

So let's just look on shooting victims as collateral damage in the ongoing War to Maintain Freedom from Oppressive Government.

Small price to pay, as long as it is not me or my family...


/

235 Kragar  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 2:12:27am

The Toppers-Baby Let Me Bang Your Box

Youtube Video
236 Kragar  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 2:16:42am

Uh, not this kind of stupid shit again:

Ten reasons not to vote for Obama ... according to a six-year-old - video

In this anti-Obama video posted on rightwing blog the Patriot Update, six-year-old Isaac Anthony counts down 10 reasons why it would be wrong to vote for Barack Obama in the upcoming US elections. Isaac claims Obama 'thinks babies are a burden', 'lets bad guys into our country' and even that 'nobody knows where he came from'

237 researchok  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 2:20:00am

re: #236 Kragar

Some people should not be allowed to have children.

Abuse comes in all forms.

238 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 2:21:23am

re: #236 Kragar

Uh, not this kind of stupid shit again:

Ten reasons not to vote for Obama ... according to a six-year-old - video

We have an "Obama Tax" rule when we play Monopoly with my kids: Income Tax is only $100 - until you get your first monopoly, then it goes up to the full $200.

At one point, my eight.year-old daughter told me she did not want to get a monopoly in order to avoid paying the full income tax.

Her understanding of economics is fully in line with the GOP...

239 freetoken  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 2:57:46am

Oh my, what's this, another Republican coming to his senses?

Former Gov. Charlie Crist backs Democrat Sen. Bill Nelson

Former Gov. Charlie Crist has taken one more step away from the Republican Party and toward Democrats, confirming he'll support Democratic Sen. Bill Nelson's re-election bid against Republican Rep. Connie Mack IV.

[...]

Asked why he's choosing Nelson over Mack, Crist called Nelson "a strong voice of common sense and moderation for the citizens of Florida." He said he has been a friend of Nelson and his wife, Grace, for years.

[...]

He also had an op-ed piece published recently in the Washington Post bashing Gov. Rick Scott's move to purge state voter rolls, siding with Democrats on a major point of partisan controversy.

[...]

240 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 2:59:27am

re: #239 freetoken

Oh my, what's this, another Republican coming to his senses?

Former Gov. Charlie Crist backs Democrat Sen. Bill Nelson

too little, too late...

241 freetoken  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 3:10:01am

re: #240 Expand Your Ground

too little, too late...

Note that Crist has given up on the Republican party, and now is registered as a independent.

What Crist discovered not long ago was that people like him are just not welcome in the transformed GOP... a party which has now been taken over by atavists.

As I posted last night, about the New York Republican who is lamenting the direction of his own party, there are a few, very few, left in the GOP hierarchy who don't think like the atavists, but their numbers are now becoming quite small.

There are still plenty of people out there who are registered as (R) but who pay no attention to what is going on around them, and simply go to the polls and vote the party line. These people are not really participating in democracy, but just being habitual, a strong trait common to humans.

242 freetoken  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 3:13:10am

Getting back to the (now old) topic of Did Jesus Exist?, I see that over at the RationalSkepticism site that they are on page 1384 (yes, one thousand three hundred eighty four) of comments about Bart Ehrman's latest book.

[Link: www.rationalskepticism.org...]

They've probably gone around in circles for some time now.

243 Decatur Deb  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 3:25:07am

re: #229 The Ghost of a Flea

Hypothetical oppression trumps actual dead people, actual maimed people, and actual mourners, in other words.

I mean, ...snip

...it's pure fiction is what's occurring everywhere else in the world. The only way you can believe what the NRA is selling is if you've been completely sheltered from how actual state violence occurs.

Alabama judge gives it a '9'.

244 freetoken  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 4:00:51am

Taiwan flooded with almost 5 feet of typhoon rain

A typhoon inched across northern Taiwan on Thursday after already dumping up to five feet of rain that has flooded farmland, swollen rivers and paralyzed life on much of the densely populated island of 23 million people.

245 freetoken  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 4:04:20am

When the Church has the power of the state behind it:

Pussy Riot: UK music stars publish protest letter

Some of Britain's leading musicians have published a letter calling for Russian officials to release a punk band that has been jailed following a protest in Moscow's main cathedral.

Pete Townshend, Jarvis Cocker, Neil Tennant and others call for the release of the three members of Pussy Riot in a letter published on Thursday in The Times.

The musicians say the band members were involved in legitimate protest and should not be facing up to seven years in jail for their actions.

[...]

The letter adds: "Dissent is a right in any democracy and it is entirely disproportionate that they face seven years in jail for what we consider a preposterous charge of 'hooliganism motivated by religious hatred'.

[...]

"We believe firmly that it is the role of the artist to make legitimate political protest and fight for freedom of speech."

[...]

246 Decatur Deb  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 4:20:14am

re: #245 freetoken

When the Church has the power of the state behind it:

Pussy Riot: UK music stars publish protest letter

Performance in question:

Youtube Video
247 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 4:25:48am

Rafalca is about to perform in his Olympic event.

248 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 4:28:55am

re: #245 freetoken

When the Church has the power of the state behind it:

Pussy Riot: UK music stars publish protest letter

I can understand why the Orthodox Church sought accomodation with the Soviets: it could be defended as a necessary evil to preserve the very existence of the Church.

But now the Church faces no existential threat from within or without, it is becoming what it was under the Czars: an extension of state power.

249 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 4:30:06am

Anyone watching Rafalca doing his horsey dance? In the cubicle gulag here.

250 Decatur Deb  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 4:33:25am

re: #249 Learned Mother of Zion

Anyone watching Rafalca doing his horsey dance? In the cubicle gulag here.

Only if Mitt were riding.

251 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 4:33:26am

re: #229 The Ghost of a Flea

Abusive does not mean full-on tyranny like in those places, not for a while in any case. Nor is the concern expressed expressed about doctor/patient privilege mainly about guns, or about the government becoming an outright tyranny. The concern could be a mild as a local DA who responded to a sensational crime (not necessarily involving guns) by essentially deciding (but not declaring) that people with a certain type of mental condition (one blamed for the crime) are undesirables and he/she is going to try to use information divulged by therapists who thought they were doing the right thing to cook up charges again their patients. Not hard to do in a frantic environment, and when the ADA sit down in front of you and shows the statement from the person you told everything a great many people would crack and cut a deal to avoid the prospect of a long sentence. Others might well be convicted. Now do you see how government can be abusive (at least for a time in given locality) without being outright tyrannical?

And as for your depiction of tyrannical regimes, let me just remind you that such brutality works... until it doesn't. Bashir Assad is finding that out the hard way.

252 freetoken  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 4:37:07am

I continue to wrestle with putting up Pages... trying to figure out what indeed will attract readers.

Simply putting up news story links will get one maybe 100 or 200 clicks... but that is not enough.

253 Decatur Deb  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 4:44:46am

re: #252 freetoken

I continue to wrestle with putting up Pages... trying to figure out what indeed will attract readers.

Simply putting up news story links will get one maybe 100 or 200 clicks... but that is not enough.

Stick with the classics: cats, urban myths, babies. Or cats smothering babies, if you're trying for a boutique niche.

254 Obdicut  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 4:47:04am

re: #253 Decatur Deb

Stick with the classics: cats, urban myths, babies. Or cats smothering babies, if you're trying for a boutique niche.

My wife loves videos of cats ambushing babies.

This will make her laugh hysterically for five minutes.

Youtube Video
255 Decatur Deb  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 4:48:35am

re: #254 Obdicut

My wife loves videos of cats ambushing babies.

This will make her laugh hysterically for five minutes.

[Embedded content]

Damn. It's so hard to be original.

256 garhighway  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 4:57:50am

re: #221 Expand Your Ground

Even Karl Rove got slapped down for implying that vocally embracing birtherism was not such a good idea and for implying that Christine O'Donnell might not be an electable candidate.

And it is a scary day when people like Karl Rove and Dick Cheney become the Voices of Reason within the GOP.

It's less about them being voices of reason and more about them understanding what the Republican Party really is: a delivery system for economic preferences to the business class. All the other shit they say is to suck in the rubes. But sometimes the rubes think it's about them.

257 freetoken  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 5:26:33am

Sigh... National Review pushes the latest Hoover Institute video, of Charles Hill (who is in desperate need of a new hair-do) and Fouad Ajami, blaming Obama for the end of the "American Century".

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

Starting at around 7:20, Hill actually starts with the idea that the US picked up "the burden from the British" of "World order" (yes, that's his phrase) ... and that it now Obama is abandoning this "World order", and that this year is "when it ended", in a proposed future retrospect.

These people, the bomb bomb bomb Iran crowd, just won't stop.

258 freetoken  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 5:27:20am

They totally fail to accept that they don't run the world.

259 freetoken  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 5:31:14am

If Hoover knew what was being done in his name, he'd roll over in his grave.

260 Varek Raith  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 5:45:48am

House GOPer Compares Free Birth Control Day to 9/11

261 dragonfire1981  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 5:59:58am

re: #215 Targetpractice

9/11 will hold a special place in his memory for sure, but not for the same reason as the rest of us.

"Daddy, where were you on 9/11??"

262 dragonfire1981  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 6:00:16am

re: #260 Varek Raith

House GOPer Compares Free Birth Control Day to 9/11

WHAT?????!!!

Good lord.

263 dragonfire1981  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 6:03:33am

re: #242 freetoken

Getting back to the (now old) topic of Did Jesus Exist?, I see that over at the RationalSkepticism site that they are on page 1384 (yes, one thousand three hundred eighty four) of comments about Bart Ehrman's latest book.

[Link: www.rationalskepticism.org...]

They've probably gone around in circles for some time now.

That's what bothers me about certain religious people (I know the commenters aren't all religious in the example above). They get so sidetracked about details and nitpicking and fighting over what they think the Bible says vs. what someone else thinks the Bible says.

In my mind I picture a hungry man begging for food and a bunch of Christians a few feet away arguing endlessly about what kind of food the Bible says they should give him.

264 iossarian  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 6:07:09am

re: #249 Learned Mother of Zion

Anyone watching Rafalca doing his horsey dance? In the cubicle gulag here.

Cubicle Archipelago.

265 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 6:15:12am

re: #256 garhighway

It's less about them being voices of reason and more about them understanding what the Republican Party really is: a delivery system for economic preferences to the business class. All the other shit they say is to suck in the rubes. But sometimes the rubes think it's about them.

I meant "voice of reason" in the relative sense: they are realists and not about to let themselves get wrapped up in the sort of ideological idiocy that is now standard for the GOP

266 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 6:16:09am

re: #264 iossarian

Cubicle Archipelago.

Cubicalcatraz?

267 iossarian  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 6:17:17am

re: #266 Expand Your Ground

Cubicalcatraz?

The Man In The Iron Cubicle

268 Decatur Deb  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 6:19:54am

re: #267 iossarian

The Man In The Iron Cubicle

CCA. Cubicle Corporation of America.

[Link: www.cca.com...]

269 Obdicut  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 6:31:39am

re: #267 iossarian

The Man In The Iron Cubicle

What Cubicles May Come.

The Neverending Cubicle.

The Fellowship of the Watercooler.

War, Peace, and Commuting.

270 Bulworth  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 6:34:23am

The lamestream media also has everyone convinced Sarah quit her governor of Alaska job halfway through her first term. And that's just false. Sarah recently won re-election with 76% of the vote and now she is the most popular governor anywhere of all time. //

271 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 6:35:05am

re: #266 Expand Your Ground

Cubicalcatraz?

The Bird Man of Cubicalcatraz

272 GunstarGreen  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 6:42:59am

re: #239 freetoken

Oh my, what's this, another Republican coming to his senses?

Former Gov. Charlie Crist backs Democrat Sen. Bill Nelson

It will happen, more and more over time, as the ones in the GOP with some scruples finally accept that no, it's not a dream.

When Dick Cheney and Karl fucking ROVE are being denounced as too left-wing for the GOP, even the most loyal GOPer starts to see the horrors that they've wrought, if they have even the slightest bit of sense.

273 GunstarGreen  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 6:44:02am

re: #270 Bulworth

The lamestream media also has everyone convinced Sarah quit her governor of Alaska job halfway through her first term. And that's just false. Sarah recently won re-election with 76% of the vote and now she is the most popular governor anywhere of all time. //

Every time someone says "Governor Palin", I have a reflexive need to correct them with "Ex-Half-Governor Moosehead".

274 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 6:44:22am

re: #257 freetoken

Sigh... National Review pushes the latest Hoover Institute video, of Charles Hill (who is in desperate need of a new hair-do) and Fouad Ajami, blaming Obama for the end of the "American Century".

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

Starting at around 7:20, Hill actually starts with the idea that the US picked up "the burden from the British" of "World order" (yes, that's his phrase) ... and that it now Obama is abandoning this "World order", and that this year is "when it ended", in a proposed future retrospect.

These people, the bomb bomb bomb Iran crowd, just won't stop.

The former PNAC crowd is squirming.

275 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 6:49:52am

re: #273 GunstarGreen

Every time someone says "Governor Palin", I have a reflexive need to correct them with "Ex-Half-Governor Moosehead".

Why do you insult the moose community?

//

276 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 6:50:33am
277 GunstarGreen  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 6:52:16am

re: #229 The Ghost of a Flea

What the NRA and GOA are selling is a power fantasy, where the villains operate according to a hackneyed script that allows the heroes to not be immediately steamrolled. It's pure fucking fiction, and the evidence that it's pure fiction is what's occurring everywhere else in the world. The only way you can believe what the NRA is selling is if you've been completely sheltered from how actual state violence occurs.

Pretty much. The people that are worried that "Obama's gonna take mah gunz!" have no idea what actual oppressive tyranny looks like. If the feds really wanted to take your weapons from you, they wouldn't send an officer to knock on your door and initiate an old-fashioned hillbilly shootout with you. They'd roll a fucking tank through your front wall And tell you to drop it or talk to the smoothbore.

Lot of good your assault rifle is going to do you then.

278 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 6:52:31am

I guess there's something about Senator Sessions' culture that cause him to become offended. I have my cultural suspects. See, with climate change, culture is part of the problem. Much like Chick-Fil A and other wingnut things.

279 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 6:56:06am
280 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 7:02:04am

re: #270 Bulworth

The lamestream media also has everyone convinced Sarah quit her governor of Alaska job halfway through her first term. And that's just false. Sarah recently won re-election with 76% of the vote and now she is the most popular governor anywhere of all time. //

I have heard it argued that she was "hounded out of office" by a merciless MSM...

281 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 7:02:09am
282 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 7:08:31am

re: #281 Gus

[Embedded content]

Should be broadcast on TV: "The Chick Fil-A Show" Would be a guaranteed big hit...

283 Interesting Times  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 7:11:03am
284 ReamWorks SKG  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 7:12:12am

Even though I'm gay-married, I certainly think Chick-Fil-A has the right to say anything it wants.

However, I'd be more impressed if they stood by their convictions, and didn't allow any unwed mothers, bastard children, or adulterers into their store. If they're going to take a stand for Marriage, they should do it with gusto!

(These Franchises are closed on Sundays, right? It's too bad that someone didn't come up with the idea of proposing Chick-Fil-A day on a Sunday....)

[Link: www.chick-fil-a.com...]

285 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 7:15:10am

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion bigotry, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech being a bigot, or of the press wingnut media; or the right of the people peaceably disgruntled to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances bigoted culture.

286 Kronocide  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 7:17:38am

Oh look, all those people supporting homophobia. How quaint.

287 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 7:17:47am

Now Willard's going to Ryan route:

Romney Aide: ‘Biased’ Tax Study Ignores The Coming Romney Boom

Mitt Romney’s policy director Lanhee Chen claims that a new study showing 95% of Americans would see a tax hike under Romney’s tax reform plan is “biased” and fails to take into account the explosion of economic growth that will occur under Romney’s administration.

“This is just another biased study from a former Obama staffer that ignores critical parts of Governor Romney’s tax reform program, which will help the middle class and promote faster economic growth,” Chen wrote in a statement Monday evening in response to the study by the Tax Policy Center released earlier in the day.

“The study analyzes only half of Governor Romney’s tax program, ignoring the reforms that would make America’s corporations more competitive by moving from the highest corporate tax rate in the industrialized world to one that is comparable to our trading partners. And the study ignores the positive benefits to economic growth from both the corporate tax plan and the deficit reduction called for in the Romney plan. These glaring gaps invalidate the report’s conclusions.”

288 lawhawk  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 7:17:57am

re: #279 Gus

Twitter was all abuzz about the CFA appreciation day, and a local NJ location at the Paramus Park mall was swamped by hundreds of people showing up to express their support.

I've eaten there occasionally, but I don't think the Mrs. and I will go back. There are other options; this is fast food after all. It's like gas stations. I avoid Citgo, BP/Amaco, or Exxon but will go to others out of a dislike for their policies (Venezuela's Chavez, response to gas spills for BP/Exxon). It's a personal preference, and I'm not going to force others to go along with that.

Canty expressed his opinion. Other folks expressed their opinion opposing Canty. Still other folks came to his defense. CFA gets a publicity bump (but does it really mean a long term bump - that's open to debate since CFA is privately held and doesn't have to release sales figures).

In the end, CFA will do what it has always done - attempt to sell fast food chicken items. It's founder/owner wont change his views and protests aren't going to change his opinion, even if a boycott hurts his (and the franchisees). People will ultimately decide for themselves if they want to eat/associate with CFA. That will ultimately determine the company's expansion opportunities; it will rest on supply/demand (aka market forces). That will tell the tale.

It's also interesting hypocritical that some CFA supporters are claiming that those opposed to Canty and his intolerant views are themselves intolerant of different views or are displaying anti-Christian bigotry. Supporting gay marriage doesn't infringe on anyone's right to marry or any existing heterosexual marriage. Opposing gay marriage does infringe on a gay person's right to happiness (life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - one of the core rationales of the Declaration of Independence).

289 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 7:18:16am

re: #284 ReamWorks SKG

(These Franchises are closed on Sundays, right? It's too bad that someone didn't come up with the idea of proposing Chick-Fil-A day on a Sunday....)

[Link: www.chick-fil-a.com...]

I never eat at my favorite Mexican restaurants on a Sunday. The best cooks are the Mexican ladies who are home on SUndays cooking for the family. I assume that they get some Nicaraguan in there for the Sunday shifts...

290 lawhawk  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 7:18:23am

re: #281 Gus

In the future every restaurant will be Taco Bell. /

291 Interesting Times  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 7:19:00am
292 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 7:19:27am

re: #290 lawhawk

In the future every restaurant will be Taco Bell. /

Just be sure you figure out how to use the three sea shells.

/

293 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 7:21:30am

re: #288 lawhawk

It's also interesting hypocritical that some CFA supporters are claiming that those opposed to Canty and his intolerant views are themselves intolerant of different views or are displaying anti-Christian bigotry. Supporting gay marriage doesn't infringe on anyone's right to marry or any existing heterosexual marriage. Opposing gay marriage does infringe on a gay person's right to happiness (life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - one of the core rationales of the Declaration of Independence).

A lot of the head explosionns come from peoples' inability to distinguish between the religious tradition of holy matrimony and the legal, secular institution of marriage.

Churches may continue to refuse to recognize gay marriage as holy matrimony (as the Catholic Church once refused to recognize heterosexual divorce), but the government may not (or at least should not) be able to deny them the rights that accompany marriage.

294 darthstar  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 7:23:03am

Okay, I finally took the time to read the Palin quote up top...evidently. Holy fuck, words must just get all bunched up and tangled in her vocal chords then fight their way out at random intervals. Today's winner, "evidently."

295 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 7:26:13am

Chick-fil-A Appreciation Day Round-Up: Intolerance On Display

Yesterday was Mike Huckabee’s Chick-fil-A Appreciation Day, and opponents of marriage equality turned out in droves to proudly support the anti-gay restaurant chain. Religious bullying was on display at locations around the country as people as the media continued to conflate homophobia with Christianity. Here’s a round-up of the latest news in the Chick-fil-A controversy:

Continues.

296 lawhawk  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 7:26:17am

re: #294 darthstar

Inarticulate, she is. /Yoda

297 andres  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 7:29:17am

re: #288 lawhawk

In part, I think there's a difference between CFA actions and those from Amazon's Bezos: Bezos contributed his own money to a cause, but Amazon is not involved in that fight, while CFA's Canty stated that his company was "guilty as charged". But then again, we live in an era where "companies are people too".

It's also interesting hypocritical that some CFA supporters are claiming that those opposed to Canty and his intolerant views are themselves intolerant of different views or are displaying anti-Christian bigotry. Supporting gay marriage doesn't infringe on anyone's right to marry or any existing heterosexual marriage. Opposing gay marriage does infringe on a gay person's right to happiness (life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - one of the core rationales of the Declaration of Independence).

Quite true.

298 darthstar  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 7:32:50am

Rich Lowry is a fucking idiot.

299 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 7:34:20am

Cawfee!

300 darthstar  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 7:35:25am

Okay...gotta run. Good morning everyone. Have a good day.

301 lawhawk  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 7:46:40am

#NBCfail continues - NBC said that they cut a segment of Olympics opening ceremonies - the memorial tribute to save time, but their international coverage showed that they simply replaced it with another portion of the show - that was two minutes longer. In other words, it would have been quicker to show the memorial (which the choreographer for the segment said it was - as per Reuters and which NBC denied was a memorial) than to cut it out and put in another, longer segment:

NBC's still denying the excised "Abide With Me" performance was about terror victims:

But it wasn't meant to be a tribute. It was disappointing to see that misconception spread.

Oh, yes the "misconception" that spread due to Reuters reporting it after a press conference with the choreographer. I can see how people might be confused.

But by far the most ludicrous claim by NBC is that cutting the segment was necessary in order to fit the broadcast into a set time schedule. As you can see above, NBC would have saved time if they'd simply aired the segment as it happened—two minutes and 14 seconds, to be precise. On the live broadcast, 7:14 elapses from the end of David Beckham appearing on a speedboat to the start of the parade of nations. NBC's broadcast took 9:28 to get from Becks to the same point.

For sure, a good six minutes of that 9:28 was commercials (the other three and a half minutes were a Ryan Seacrest interview of Michael Phelps). Obviously we don't begrudge NBC showing commercials—they are a business, after all—but given that NBC's claim all along has been that their editing was "tailored for an American audience," why not run the ads during random nations' parade? Or, perhaps, during the portions of the ceremony where French was spoken? That would still be shitty, but it would at least be consistent with their alleged editorial viewpoint. It's not like Meredith Vieira was providing insightful commentary to the parade anyway.

I totally get why people are so frustrated with NBC coverage of the Olympics. They time shift everyone's viewing - failing to show stuff live when they have the opportunity to do so, which was especially true on the first weekend - but ran bumps ahead of the actual events, spilling the beans on who won what anyways.

Getting the action live online may sound okay in principal, but not everyone has that kind of access, or knows how to get the feed to avoid NBC strictures.

302 iossarian  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 7:56:32am

re: #301 lawhawk

Once again we are faced with the irony of FREEDOM LOVING AMERICANS being fed an "America-friendly" view of what's happening in the world because that's what the benevolent corporations think is best to show them. But don't worry, our guns are keeping us safe from the gubmint!

I'm beginning to think the US should be renamed "The Ironic States of America".

303 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:02:43am

re: #302 iossarian

Once again we are faced with the irony of FREEDOM LOVING AMERICANS being fed an "America-friendly" view of what's happening in the world because that's what the benevolent corporations think is best to show them. But don't worry, our guns are keeping us safe from the gubmint!

I'm beginning to think the US should be renamed "The Ironic States of America".

I don't see why one network should get exclusive coverage of the games. Let the market decide (as the free market people cry). Let whatever network wants to cover it do so. Let the viewers decide what coverage they want to watch. Let the advertisers chase the most watched network(s). Then the ones with shitty coverage will have to reevaluate what they are doing and why it isn't working or lose the ad revenue to the competitor that is getting the eyes watching.

304 iossarian  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:05:18am

re: #303 RayFerd

Let whatever network wants to cover it do so.

It's a nice idea, but we can't do it because John Locke private property blah blah blah.

305 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:05:29am

re: #303 RayFerd

This discussion is rather irrelevant to me: I stopped being interested in Olympic coverage years ago, the things I read about the Olympics themselves and their coverage jsut reinforce why I choose to ignore them...

306 erik_t  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:08:03am

re: #303 RayFerd

I don't see why one network should get exclusive coverage of the games. Let the market decide (as the free market people cry). Let whatever network wants to cover it do so. Let the viewers decide what coverage they want to watch. Let the advertisers chase the most watched network(s). Then the ones with shitty coverage will have to reevaluate what they are doing and why it isn't working or lose the ad revenue to the competitor that is getting the eyes watching.

Well, that's how it works already. Unfortunately, the timescale of changeover is on the order of a decade.

307 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:09:14am

I'm Gay and I support Chick-fil-A

Chick-Fil-A has a right to do business in any city they want. It is the right of the people of that city to boycott the company if they don't believe in it's practices. For example I don't agree with Wal-Mart's treatment of it's employees so I don't shop there, the same should be applied to Chick-Fil-A if people have a problem with them. I would ask this of my fellow gays, How would you feel if Governor Jan Brewer of Arizona, a well known Republican and Christian, told all gay business owners and workers that they could not get a job in the state because their beliefs did not match the beliefs of the state? We would call it unfair and a violation of our civil rights. Why then is it okay for a mayor to tell a company they cannot open business in the city simply because our beliefs differ?

308 erik_t  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:11:47am

Obama breaks 70% in the 538 Forecast for the first time

309 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:12:42am

Let Chick-fil-A Fly Free

As a gay man, I’m disheartened by statements like Mr. Cathy’s, with their limited conception of what it means to be a family. “Family” is a treasured — I’ll say it, sacred — word in the gay community. Through decades of modern-day oppression, gay men and lesbians have created families against all odds. Love, loyalty, commitment, mutual support: these things are family. They are scarce virtues that our society should do everything in its power to foster.

But that’s my opinion. And a society that truly believes in individual freedom will respect Mr. Cathy’s right to his views. Those who disagree with him are free to boycott Chick-fil-A in protest. But if our elected officials run Chick-fil-A out of town, they are effectively voting for all of us, regardless of our respective beliefs, and eliminating our individual freedoms.

310 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:12:53am

re: #307 Killgore Trout

I'm Gay and I support Chick-fil-A

I'd quibble with the word "support" here, or perhaps with the choice of direct object. He supports Chick-fil-A's right to do business, and the right of its owners to have and express a point of view.

By this definition the ACLU "supported" the American Nazi Party.

311 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:12:57am

re: #305 Expand Your Ground

This discussion is rather irrelevant to me: I stopped being interested in Olympic coverage years ago, the things I read about the Olympics themselves and their coverage jsut reinforce why I choose to ignore them...

This.

NBC has fubared every Olympics they've covered, they concentrate on the gymnasts and the so-called "dream team" (sorry, I stopped watching Olympics Basketball when we stopped sending amateur teams) to the exclusion of other far more interesting sports - fencing, sailing, various equestrian sports, Modern Pentathlon, the classic field events and so on. If I never see one of their over treacly "human interest" stories, I would count myself extremely blessed.

The Olympics only exists anymore as a way to gain bribe money for the IOC & for media companies to sell advertising on. The sports no longer matter.

312 iossarian  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:13:35am

re: #307 Killgore Trout

Log Cabin Republican?

Complaining that liberals wouldn't like it if conservatives petitioned the government to ban liberal practices ignores the salient fact that CONSERVATIVES DO THIS ALL THE FUCKING TIME.

313 erik_t  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:14:42am

re: #312 iossarian

Log Cabin Republican?

Complaining that liberals wouldn't like it if conservatives petitioned the government to ban liberal practices ignores the salient fact that CONSERVATIVES DO THIS ALL THE FUCKING TIME.

I also remain irritated any time there's an implication that fighting bigotry and supporting bigotry are sides of the same coin. They're fucking not.

314 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:15:30am

and another one...
A Gay Chick-fil-A Employee Speaks Out

So when people boycott Chick-fil-A, it means I don't get hours. Which means I don’t get money. Not just me, but ALL of the LGBT employees at Chick-fil-A. Yes, CFA hires LGBT people. No one’s been fired for being gay or coming out. It’s a job. A job that can’t be taken for granted when work is scarce across the country. We have to eat too. So sure, boycott Chick-fil-A because you don’t agree with the CEO. Will you change his mind? No. Will it change the amount of money my LGBT peers and I can earn? Probably. Boycotting Chick-fil-A doesn’t hurt the company. It hurts the employees. And it’s hard enough working for a place that doesn’t think you should get married. But it’s work. Don’t take it away because you feel righteous.

315 erik_t  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:17:34am
Boycotting Chick-fil-A doesn’t hurt the company. It hurts the employees.

I'm trying to find the world's tiniest violin. I seem to have misplaced it. I suppose that happens to things that are so damned small.

316 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:17:50am

re: #310 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

"Forget it, he's rolling."

317 iossarian  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:19:26am

Honest question to those on the "government should stay out of it" side of the fence:

Were state and national governments right to send in troops to forcibly desegregate educational establishments in the 60s?

318 iossarian  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:20:20am

re: #314 Killgore Trout

and another one...
A Gay Chick-fil-A Employee Speaks Out

"Hey, I work for the bigots, don't boycott them, because it hurts me."

Whatever.

319 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:20:29am

re: #317 iossarian

Honest question to those on the "government should stay out of it" side of the fence:

Were state and national governments right to send in troops to forcibly desegregate educational establishments in the 60s?

Stop for a second and think about that. Are Chick-Fil-A restaurants run by the government at any level?

320 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:22:37am

re: #310 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

I'd quibble with the word "support" here, or perhaps with the choice of direct object. He supports Chick-fil-A's right to do business, and the right of its owners to have and express a point of view.

By this definition the ACLU "supported" the American Nazi Party.

I get your point but I do support Chick Fil A in this situation although I strongly disagree with their stance on gay marriage. The goal here is to be less of an oppressive asshole than your opponents and this is where many of my fellow "liberals" have lost the plot. Just like with the Rush Limbaugh thing he was way out of line with his slut comments. It should have been an easy victory to make him look like a dick but overreaching attempts to have him driven off the air were just too much and attempts to misuse government authority (fcc) were just way over the line. Same with Chick Fil A. This should have been an easy victory but my fellow "liberals" force me to side with the religious bigots. It's not even a difficult choice for me.

321 iossarian  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:23:13am

re: #319 Targetpractice

Stop for a second and think about that. Are Chick-Fil-A restaurants run by the government at any level?

I don't think that really matters all that much. People can still petition the government to prevent private companies from acting in a discriminatory way.

322 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:23:41am

re: #319 Targetpractice

Stop for a second and think about that. Are Chick-Fil-A restaurants run by the government at any level?

Restaurants cannot discriminate based on color.

[Link: www.legalzoom.com...]

323 erik_t  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:24:04am

re: #320 Killgore Trout

my fellow "liberals"

Every time I read statements like this I spray a little coffee onto the keyboard through my nose.

Please, Mr. Trout, think of the keyboards.

324 iossarian  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:24:32am

re: #320 Killgore Trout

Unfortunately your "liberalism" is rapidly losing ground in the US, because the bigots have zero qualms about using exactly the tools that you decry to achieve their own aims.

325 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:25:23am

re: #321 iossarian

I don't think that really matters all that much. People can still petition the government to prevent private companies from acting in a discriminatory way.

And the government can only do so much. If a black man had wanted to sit at a lunch counter after Brown v Board and was refused, would people have supported a National Guard soldier being ordered to force the owner at gunpoint to open a seat at the counter?

326 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:25:29am

re: #320 Killgore Trout

And the MBF wins again! Wait, what?

327 Obdicut  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:25:33am

There's a consistent attempt by people to try to make the CFA thing just about the CEO. It's not. The company itself has donated money to hate groups.

328 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:25:54am

re: #323 erik_t

Every time I read statements like this I spray a little coffee onto the keyboard through my nose.

Please, Mr. Trout, think of the keyboards.

Modern common usage doesn't distinguish between Classical Liberals and Modern Liberals. It's confusing terminology to many people.

329 iossarian  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:26:30am

What's really sad about the "gay employee of CFA" story is that this is how capitalism works: it makes the people it oppresses dependent on the system oppressing them for their survival. You get to live on a dollar a day, but don't complain! Because next door, the guy who complained got laid off and is now dying of starvation.

330 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:26:37am

re: #322 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Restaurants cannot discriminate based on color.

[Link: www.legalzoom.com...]

Yes, they have to abide by the law and government regulations. But they are still privately owned, yes? They're not run by the government?

331 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:26:42am

Concern.

332 iossarian  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:27:55am

re: #325 Targetpractice

And the government can only do so much. If a black man had wanted to sit at a lunch counter after Brown v Board and was refused, would people have supported a National Guard soldier being ordered to force the owner at gunpoint to open a seat at the counter?

I would. That was my question really.

I'd be interested to hear why you would disagree (if you would). After all - the law bans discrimination, and part of the point of having laws is that they are enforced, and seen to be enforced.

333 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:28:48am

re: #330 Targetpractice

Yes, they have to abide by the law and government regulations. But they are still privately owned, yes? They're not run by the government?

Absolutely, yes. But a privately owned restaurant is considered a public establishment.

Now, the workers and owners thereof are entitled to hold and state any opinion they wish.

Personally, if I were black, I'm not sure I would eat anywhere where I knew the workers were adamantly opposed to my being there, and where my food was prepared out of my sight.

334 Interesting Times  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:29:54am
335 Obdicut  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:30:50am

re: #320 Killgore Trout

I get your point but I do support Chick Fil A in this situation although I strongly disagree with their stance on gay marriage. The goal here is to be less of an oppressive asshole than your opponents and this is where many of my fellow "liberals" have lost the plot. Just like with the Rush Limbaugh thing he was way out of line with his slut comments. It should have been an easy victory to make him look like a dick but overreaching attempts to have him driven off the air were just too much and attempts to misuse government authority (fcc) were just way over the line. Same with Chick Fil A. This should have been an easy victory but my fellow "liberals" force me to side with the religious bigots. It's not even a difficult choice for me.

This makes zero sense. In a very few cases, mayors or other governmental officials are saying they won't approve them. In some cases this may be overstepping their authority, in other cases-- where their approval is needed because they're supposed to in some way safeguard the character of the city-- it's not. The only reason these people get a say in whether or not the restaurant is allowed to open there is because of already-existing legal structures; it wasn't invented just for this.

When you say that the goal is to be less of an oppressive asshole, do you really think that not letting a chain store open up one location is equivalent in oppression to denying gay people the right to get married?

336 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:31:18am

re: #320 Killgore Trout

I get your point but I do support Chick Fil A in this situation although I strongly disagree with their stance on gay marriage.

I'm not sure you do get my point. Can you tell me what "support" means to you in this context?

337 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:31:24am

re: #332 iossarian

I would. That was my question really.

I'd be interested to hear why you would disagree (if you would). After all - the law bans discrimination, and part of the point of having laws is that they are enforced, and seen to be enforced.

Bans discrimination, but allows for freedom of speech, belief, and association. The argument that CFA should be banned from cities because of its views on the question of gay marriage or its definition of "family" is not one I could ever support.

338 iossarian  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:31:31am

re: #332 iossarian

I would. That was my question really.

I'd be interested to hear why you would disagree (if you would). After all - the law bans discrimination, and part of the point of having laws is that they are enforced, and seen to be enforced.

Let's take another scenario: let's say that a black guy walks up to a cop and says: "I'm going to go into that diner and sit down at the lunch counter, and ask for service."

What should the cop do, in that situation, as a representative of the (small s) state and its laws?

339 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:31:56am

re: #336 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

I'm not sure you do get my point. Can you tell me what "support" means to you in this context?

Well, KT lives in Portland, so it doesn't mean actually buying their food.

340 A Mom Anon  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:32:13am

Once again,let's remember that free speech doesn't include the right to remain free of criticism or protest for what you've said. I have a right to react to something I disagree with just as much as Dan Cathy has the right to say gay marriage is wrong. I have the right to avoid that company and let my friends and family know why. Since this is a free country there's not a damned thing wrong with me not spending my money at Chick Fil A (which I never have anyway for other reasons). I'm not persecuting anyone or stepping on anyone's freedom by doing so. The right wing is awfully quick to go into full boycott mode when something displeases them but they cry like babies when other people exercise those same rights. This country could use a time out,honest to god. I can't believe this is even an issue in 2012.

341 erik_t  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:32:15am

I do find it slightly ironic that there's so much concern for Chick-Fil-A being able to open their restaurant in whatever city, while Chick-Fil-A itself is so profoundly selective in choosing franchisees.

Only slightly, since there's obviously a difference between an elected official and a private company owner.

342 iossarian  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:33:28am

re: #335 Obdicut

When you say that the goal is to be less of an oppressive asshole, do you really think that not letting a chain store open up one location is equivalent in oppression to denying gay people the right to get married?

"Corporations are people too, my friend," said the Classical Liberal.

343 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:34:35am

I am sitting here laughing that a business can't refuse someone service because of odor.

Seriously? BO is a very good reason to keep someone out of an establishment, as well as a preponderance of aftershave.

344 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:37:19am

re: #336 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

I'm not sure you do get my point. Can you tell me what "support" means to you in this context?

By support I mean I will speak out in favor of allowing them to conduct business without government interference, speak freely about their ideas and contribute to political/religious causes they want to. We don't have the restaurants here so I can't buy their food. Although I don't wish that they succeed in their political goals I very strongly support their right to pursue them and speak freely about it.

345 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:38:45am

The Free Market is about the notion of people voting with their pocketbooks. I disagree with politicians who want to restrict the expansion of any business over its political views.

346 Obdicut  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:39:09am

re: #344 Killgore Trout

So what restrictions on corporate donations to campaigns, PACs, etc. do you think there should be?

347 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:39:14am

re: #333 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Absolutely, yes. But a privately owned restaurant is considered a public establishment.

Now, the workers and owners thereof are entitled to hold and state any opinion they wish.

Personally, if I were black, I'm not sure I would eat anywhere where I knew the workers were adamantly opposed to my being there, and where my food was prepared out of my sight.

All well and good, I'd also avoid any place that gave me the impression that the people behind the counter did not wish me to be there. I'd advise my friends and family to avoid the place as well. But calling for them to be shut down simply because the guy behind the counter and I don't see eye to eye is going too far.

348 palomino  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:39:50am

re: #311 William Barnett-Lewis

This.

NBC has fubared every Olympics they've covered, they concentrate on the gymnasts and the so-called "dream team" (sorry, I stopped watching Olympics Basketball when we stopped sending amateur teams) to the exclusion of other far more interesting sports - fencing, sailing, various equestrian sports, Modern Pentathlon, the classic field events and so on. If I never see one of their over treacly "human interest" stories, I would count myself extremely blessed.

The Olympics only exists anymore as a way to gain bribe money for the IOC & for media companies to sell advertising on. The sports no longer matter.

Why would you want to watch our 19-year old college students play the 28-year olds on every other Olympic basketball team? The competition had become a joke before 1992 because it was essentially American children playing against everyone else's adults.

I agree that the human interest stories suck, but this has been going on for decades...even ABC and the great Jim McKay did a lot of the same stuff. As for viewing the more esoteric sports you mention, there's a good chance you can actually see them. First, NBC streams lots of coverage live. Second, there are at least 7 networks covering the Olympics: nbc, cnbc, msnbc, bravo, nbcsp, osocc, and obask...all of which are free on basic cable, at least Time Warner here in Cali. Earlier today I saw dressage, archery and fencing, and I wasn't even specifically looking for them.

349 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:39:58am

re: #344 Killgore Trout

By support I mean I will speak out in favor of allowing them to conduct business without government interference, speak freely about their ideas and contribute to political/religious causes they want to. We don't have the restaurants here so I can't buy their food. Although I don't wish that they succeed in their political goals I very strongly support their right to pursue them and speak freely about it.

That answers my question. You did miss my point.

350 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:41:00am

re: #346 Obdicut

So what restrictions on corporate donations to campaigns, PACs, etc. do you think there should be?

The only "restriction" I see necessary is declaring such donations so voters have a clear view of who is behind their candidates

351 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:41:57am

re: #347 Targetpractice

All well and good, I'd also avoid any place that gave me the impression that the people behind the counter did not wish me to be there. I'd advise my friends and family to avoid the place as well. But calling for them to be shut down simply because the guy behind the counter and I don't see eye to eye is going too far.

You have the right to a free-market vote, which is the right to not to buy things there. We all do.

I could join the DAR, but I have chosen not to, in part because of the kerfluffle all those decades ago, and in part because I can't figure out why I should.

352 ReamWorks SKG  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:42:28am

I'm off to Norway! Where there are no Chick-Fil-A, just Lutfisk-Fil-A, and where same-sex marriage is legal. I'll post some photos when I land.

353 Obdicut  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:42:56am

re: #350 Expand Your Ground

The only "restriction" I see necessary is declaring such donations so voters have a clear view of who is behind their candidates

Really? I know our current system is imperfect, but, especially at the local level, that could lead to a lot of directly-bought candidates.

354 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:43:16am

re: #350 Expand Your Ground

The only "restriction" I see necessary is declaring such donations so voters have a clear view of who is behind their candidates

Yes, and no masking your identity with false fronts. No "People for the prevention of Internet Piracy" that consists entirely of Apple.

355 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:43:58am

re: #352 ReamWorks SKG

I'm off to Norway! Where there are no Chick-Fil-A, just Lutfisk-Fil-A, and where same-sex marriage is legal. I'll post some photos when I land.

Get us some good shots of the end of civilization as we know it.

356 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:44:49am

re: #352 ReamWorks SKG

I'm off to Norway! Where there are no Chick-Fil-A, just Lutfisk-Fil-A, and where same-sex marriage is legal. I'll post some photos when I land.

Lutefisk-Fil-A.

Not coming to a town near you.

Ever.

(Seriously, we went to Disneyworld, and I thought the kids should eat at the Norwegian bakery to celebrate their heritage (on their dad's side.

Now I know why there aren't Scandinavian restaurants on every corner, like there are Italian or Mexican.)

357 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:45:24am

re: #351 Mostly sane, most of the time.

You have the right to a free-market vote, which is the right to not to buy things there. We all do.

I could join the DAR, but I have chosen not to, in part because of the kerfluffle all those decades ago, and in part because I can't figure out why I should.

Indeed, I can take my patronage elsewhere. In an ideal world, enough people will be turned away by their disagreement with the business' practices that it will suffer financially and be eventually forced to review and revise its approach.

But I'm a realist and understand that barring CFA from a handful of cities, even major ones, is not going to change their mind in the end, or that a boycott of me and a few thousand people will dent a business whose yearly sales number in the millions or billions.

358 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:46:14am

re: #357 Targetpractice

Indeed, I can take my patronage elsewhere. In an ideal world, enough people will be turned away by their disagreement with the business' practices that it will suffer financially and be eventually forced to review and revise its approach.

But I'm a realist and understand that barring CFA from a handful of cities, even major ones, is not going to change their mind in the end, or that a boycott of me and a few thousand people will dent a business whose yearly sales number in the millions or billions.

Especially when you consider that others will take their business there on purpose.

359 GunstarGreen  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:48:12am

The Chik-Pocalypse continues...

A whole lot of this argument is people talking past each other. There are two things at play here:

1) The justification of boycotting an establishment for its owner's views
2) The justification of the government to ban the opening of an establishment for its owner's views.

The first is completely fine and justified. You have a right to shop wherever you please, and to deliberately NOT shop wherever you please. There's nothing in contention here, save for the occasional "Don't boycott these guys because that hurts the workers' paychecks" argument, which is bogus. You have a choice of where to work, and complaining about other people exercising their right of choice because it hurts your bottom line is asinine. Voting with dollars is the only mechanism of redress that the public has for an establishment who's owner holds odious views.

The second item, banning the establishment from the city, is NOT justified. Unless and until it can be shown, via legally-admissable evidence, that CFA discriminates based on religion or sexual orientation in its hiring or how it treats its employees, there is no legal basis for the government to bar them from doing business. As odious as I find the Cathy family's views on marriage, simply having and expressing those views is not valid grounds for government intervention in their ability to operate a business. You are free to boycott them, as I do, and to advise everyone you can to do the same. The First Amendment does not protect you from civil repercussions of your speech. But it does protect you from government interfering with your right to that speech.

360 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:48:42am

Champion of free speech! LOL

361 iossarian  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:50:39am

re: #347 Targetpractice

All well and good, I'd also avoid any place that gave me the impression that the people behind the counter did not wish me to be there. I'd advise my friends and family to avoid the place as well. But calling for them to be shut down simply because the guy behind the counter and I don't see eye to eye is going too far.

It's not a question of you disagreeing with the guy behind the counter because you like the Sox and he's a Cubs fan. It's a question of that guy, his family, his friends and the entire legal system getting to screw you over, every day, because that's the way it's always been done.

The black guy sitting down at the lunch counter wasn't protesting against the fact that he couldn't order a milkshake. He was protesting against the fact that white guys in hoods could murder him and his family, with the system turning a blind eye to it. Just another dead *deleted*.

That's why the troops got sent in to desegregate schools and universities, and that's why I would support local governments who decide that they don't need a peddler of hatred and bigotry setting up a fried chicken joint in their towns.

362 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:51:09am

re: #359 GunstarGreen

The Chik-Pocalypse continues...

A whole lot of this argument is people talking past each other. There are two things at play here:

1) The justification of boycotting an establishment for its owner's views
2) The justification of the government to ban the opening of an establishment for its owner's views.

The first is completely fine and justified. You have a right to shop wherever you please, and to deliberately NOT shop wherever you please. There's nothing in contention here, save for the occasional "Don't boycott these guys because that hurts the workers' paychecks" argument, which is bogus. You have a choice of where to work, and complaining about other people exercising their right of choice because it hurts your bottom line is asinine. Voting with dollars is the only mechanism of redress that the public has for an establishment who's owner holds odious views.

The second item, banning the establishment from the city, is NOT justified. Unless and until it can be shown, via legally-admissable evidence, that CFA discriminates based on religion or sexual orientation in its hiring or how it treats its employees, there is no legal basis for the government to bar them from doing business. As odious as I find the Cathy family's views on marriage, simply having and expressing those views is not valid grounds for government intervention in their ability to operate a business. You are free to boycott them, as I do, and to advise everyone you can to do the same. The First Amendment does not protect you from civil repercussions of your speech. But it does protect you from government interfering with your right to that speech.

I would add that a government can ban a business if they show that the business, by itself, is seriously detrimental to the population. I don't mean detrimental in a cupcakes-are-bad-for-you sort of way, I mean more like a toy store selling "Bag of Glass," or a business with a seriously toxic by-product, like a toxic smoke or liquid.

363 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:54:01am

Here's a view from Joe My God:

Virtually all of the city officials who declared that they'd fight Chick-Fil-A opening in their towns have walked back their statements, saying either that they'd spoken in haste or that they were only expressing their personal opinions and had no actual plans to block business permits. Last week the ACLU was quick to react and issued strongly worded warnings about any such actions. While it was emotionally satisfying to hear such vigorous support from gay-friendly politicians (and I certainly fed into that by covering them), their words poured gasoline on the fire and allowed our enemies to frame the entire national debate as being about freedom of speech, which we know it is NOT. With clearer heads provided by a few days distance and strictly in terms of messaging from gay-friendly officials, we must reluctantly concede that we lost this round and we lost it very badly.

364 GunstarGreen  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 8:54:19am

re: #362 Mostly sane, most of the time.

I would add that a government can ban a business if they show that the business, by itself, is seriously detrimental to the population. I don't mean detrimental in a cupcakes-are-bad-for-you sort of way, I mean more like a toy store selling "Bag of Glass," or a business with a seriously toxic by-product, like a toxic smoke or liquid.

Yes, exactly. Again -- the moment it can be shown that CFA actually does discriminate in how it does business, then they're fair game for government sanctions. But as long as they do business fairly and equally, the personal views they hold are not actionable.

365 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:00:08am

Well, I got my letter from the health insurance company informing me that they owe me money. Now I just have to see if my work is going to cut me a check or just lower my premiums.

366 iossarian  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:01:55am

"Freedom of speech", and the system it actually entails via its legal interpretation, is to me perhaps the main reason why America lags so far behind Europe in terms of healthcare, public health and safety, employment rights and non-discrimination, with no actual increase in "freedom" to show for it.

Go and tell a German that he's less free than you - once he's stopped laughing he might ask you for examples.

367 iossarian  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:02:47am

BBL

368 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:02:53am

re: #358 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Especially when you consider that others will take their business there on purpose.

Exactly. It's a long, slow fight from here. Society's not gonna change overnight, it certainly didn't even after Brown v. Board and the Civil Rights Act. People still fought back, still found ways to skirt desegregation. They lost in the long run, but at the time, they very much believed they could win.

369 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:04:53am

re: #368 Targetpractice

Exactly. It's a long, slow fight from here. Society's not gonna chance overnight, it certainly didn't even after Brown v. Board and the Civil Rights Act. People still fought back, still found ways to skirt desegregation. They lost in the long run, but at the time, they very much believed they could win.

What was really needed was a system in which blacks had access to resources to open their own restaurants. That's real non-discrimination.

371 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:06:30am

re: #370 makeitstop

Rep. King Goes Birther: Suggests Obama’s Parents Telegrammed Fake Hawaii Birth Announcement From Kenya

What the fuck?

Hey man. Freedom of speech.

//

372 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:07:03am

Agumentum ad freedom of speechum.

//

373 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:08:54am

re: #362 Mostly sane, most of the time.

I would add that a government can ban a business if they show that the business, by itself, is seriously detrimental to the population. I don't mean detrimental in a cupcakes-are-bad-for-you sort of way, I mean more like a toy store selling "Bag of Glass," or a business with a seriously toxic by-product, like a toxic smoke or liquid.

You mean tobacco and alcohol?

374 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:09:48am

re: #373 Expand Your Ground

You mean tobacco and alcohol?

Technically both poisonous, but I was thinking more like some kind of smoke that leaves everyone in the ER or the kind of liquid that has three-headed fish swimming in it.

375 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:10:25am

re: #370 makeitstop

Rep. King Goes Birther: Suggests Obama’s Parents Telegrammed Fake Hawaii Birth Announcement From Kenya

What the fuck?

This was the "trap" that Karl Rove tried to warn the wingnuts about: Obama just quietly let the birther thing play out for so long that it became an Article of Faith, and now these people will come up with any sort of ridiculous construct to demonstrate that they were not wrong...

376 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:10:45am
377 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:10:48am

Totally off-topic, but this is a fun little list:

[Link: www.buzzfeed.com...]

My sister has pointed out that that first dude they didn't even give a stuffed bra. Come on, you can do better than that. At least find a dude who's mildly pretty.

378 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:11:26am

English only.

Freedom of speech.

Irony.

379 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:11:55am

re: #361 iossarian

It's not a question of you disagreeing with the guy behind the counter because you like the Sox and he's a Cubs fan. It's a question of that guy, his family, his friends and the entire legal system getting to screw you over, every day, because that's the way it's always been done.

The black guy sitting down at the lunch counter wasn't protesting against the fact that he couldn't order a milkshake. He was protesting against the fact that white guys in hoods could murder him and his family, with the system turning a blind eye to it. Just another dead *deleted*.

That's why the troops got sent in to desegregate schools and universities, and that's why I would support local governments who decide that they don't need a peddler of hatred and bigotry setting up a fried chicken joint in their towns.

So a government should ban businesses now based upon their political views? Hold the threat of losing a business license as a way of controlling a business owners freedom of speech and belief?

380 palomino  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:11:55am

re: #364 GunstarGreen

Yes, exactly. Again -- the moment it can be shown that CFA actually does discriminate in how it does business, then they're fair game for government sanctions. But as long as they do business fairly and equally, the personal views they hold are not actionable.

The last thing we need is to become balkanized over fast food restaurants. Maybe we can move towards an America with Pepsi in blue states and Coke in red states only. Wouldn't that be great?

For example, I'd hate to see Hooters get kicked out of Salt Lake City. Not that I plan to ever be in another Hooters or SLC again, but neither the political leanings nor the bad food and tacky theme should keep Hooters out of conservative cities...same goes for the douchebaggery of CFA's CEO, it should not be used to keep fried chicken sandwiches out of Boston or other liberal cities.

381 GunstarGreen  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:12:11am

re: #371 Gus

Hey man. Freedom of speech.

//

I happen to think King is an asshole and possibly a nutbar, but. I must ask, and I mean this completely seriously -- honest question -- do you believe that King should be imprisoned, fined, or otherwise legally punished for saying that?

382 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:14:14am

re: #381 GunstarGreen

I happen to think King is an asshole and possibly a nutbar, but. I must ask, and I mean this completely seriously -- honest question -- do you believe that King should be imprisoned, fined, or otherwise legally punished for saying that?

None of the above.

383 The Left  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:14:47am

re: #378 Gus

English only.

Freedom of speech.

Irony.

Hey man! English was good enough for Jesus and it's good enough for us!

384 makeitstop  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:15:28am

re: #381 GunstarGreen

I happen to think King is an asshole and possibly a nutbar, but. I must ask, and I mean this completely seriously -- honest question -- do you believe that King should be imprisoned, fined, or otherwise legally punished for saying that?

I think one of the sane members of his party should step up and publicly tell him to knock this stupid shit off.

Sadly, there are no more sane Republicans. They all got out of the game once they realized where the party was headed.

385 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:16:04am

re: #383 Millicent Islam

Hey man! English was good enough for Jesus and it's good enough for us!

Yeah. I heard the dinosaurs also spoke English.

It's not really English though. They spoke Murican.

386 makeitstop  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:17:27am

Oops. Hit the wrong button. Sorry. Will go get more coffee now.

387 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:17:51am

re: #380 palomino

The last thing we need is to become balkanized over fast food restaurants.

Fast food and other people's sexual preferences: two things that are always at the top of any list of topics Americans love to gon at length about...

388 The Left  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:18:12am

re: #385 Gus

Yeah. I heard the dinosaurs also spoke English.

It's not really English though. They spoke Murican.

Only socialist bastards spell color with a u!

389 erik_t  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:18:23am

re: #381 GunstarGreen

I happen to think King is an asshole and possibly a nutbar, but. I must ask, and I mean this completely seriously -- honest question -- do you believe that King should be imprisoned, fined, or otherwise legally punished for saying that?

I think he's probably past the point of congressional censure, but I wouldn't consider that 'legal punishment'.

390 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:19:05am

re: #384 makeitstop

Sadly, there are no more sane Republicans. They all got out of the game once they realized where the party was headed.

They are still around, they just learned to keep their mouths shut on certain topics in order to win the next primary...

391 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:19:36am

Next time Louis Farrakhan or Norm Finkelstein gets invited to UC Davis or something don't complain.

Freedom of speech baby.

//

392 GunstarGreen  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:19:39am

re: #382 Gus

None of the above.

I am glad to see that we agree on this point. This is what I, and many others, mean when invoking "freedom of speech". It's not just some platitude, nor is it a way of saying 'well that's just like, your opinion man'. I think King is a detestable scumbag for floating that batshit conspiracy theory -- but I fully support the idea that he is free to do it, no sarcasm slashes involved.

393 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:20:04am

Controversy!

Shocking.

Did you read what he said?

//

394 The Left  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:21:03am

re: #381 GunstarGreen

I happen to think King is an asshole and possibly a nutbar, but. I must ask, and I mean this completely seriously -- honest question -- do you believe that King should be imprisoned, fined, or otherwise legally punished for saying that?

He should be punished within the free marketplace of ideas-- by other people mocking him, deriding him, making his words public, refusing to vote for him.

In other words, others can express their contrary opinions and their opinions of him, all protected by the First Amendment.

395 makeitstop  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:21:07am

re: #390 Expand Your Ground

They are still around, they just learned to keep their moths shut on certain topics in order to win the next primary...

I've got to believe that people like Bob Dole and Bush the Elder must be horrified at the direction the GOP has taken.

And I also wonder why none of them will consistently speak up. Not that anyone in their party would care to listen.

396 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:22:55am

re: #392 GunstarGreen

I am glad to see that we agree on this point. This is what I, and many others, mean when invoking "freedom of speech". It's not just some platitude, nor is it a way of saying 'well that's just like, your opinion man'. I think King is a detestable scumbag for floating that batshit conspiracy theory -- but I fully support the idea that he is free to do it, no sarcasm slashes involved.

I don't see why we even have to explain that but that's the spot that the right wing has put us in. Perhaps if is the fault of those that would and do call for such things.

397 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:23:43am

...that's different...

//

398 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:24:06am

NBC Olympics coverage is basically a bunch of commercials with breaks for some sporting events.

399 The Left  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:24:14am

re: #396 Gus

I don't see why we even have to explain that but that's the spot that the right wing has put us in. Perhaps if is the fault of those that would and do call for such things.

The First Amendment issue is a smokescreen the right wing has put up to conceal their bigotry.

400 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:24:36am

re: #398 Learned Mother of Zion

NBC Olympics coverage is basically a bunch of commercials with breaks for some sporting events.

Then I don't feel so bad about missing it.

401 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:24:40am
402 GunstarGreen  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:25:21am

re: #394 Millicent Islam

He should be punished within the free marketplace of ideas-- by other people mocking him, deriding him, making his words public, refusing to vote for him.

In other words, others can express their contrary opinions and their opinions of him, all protected by the First Amendment.

Yes, precisely. The First is explicitly about limiting what the government can do to you for your speech, and this is my point in all of this. A lot of people get bent out of shape when folks invoke the First in regards to CFA and the mayors that were talking about banning the stores from their cities, but invoking it there is not a frivolous "people can say whatever they want" thing -- it is specifically in reference to the government trying to say it can punish people for their views, which it explicitly cannot according to the First.

403 jaunte  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:25:33am

re: #399 Millicent Islam

They've been whining about "political correctness" for at least the past 20 years.

404 erik_t  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:25:42am

re: #395 makeitstop

I've got to believe that people like Bob Dole and Bush the Elder must be horrified at the direction the GOP has taken.

And I also wonder why none of them will consistently speak up. Not that anyone in their party would care to listen.

Broadly, because they value their social stature more highly than the good they could do for this country by speaking out. Any more granular reasoning than that doesn't really matter to me.

405 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:26:54am

re: #398 Learned Mother of Zion

NBC Olympics coverage Television is basically a bunch of commercials with breaks for some sporting events programming.

406 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:27:19am
407 erik_t  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:28:04am

re: #402 GunstarGreen

mayors that were talking about banning the stores from their cities, but invoking it there is not a frivolous "people can say whatever they want" thing -- it is specifically in reference to the government trying to say it can punish people for their views, which it explicitly cannot according to the First.

I have been on an Internet Quest this morning to determine whether or not this actually is so -- to what degree an individual is guaranteed the right to a business license, to what degree mayors have broad and sweeping powers to act in the nebulous good of their community, things like that. I haven't yet been successful.

I'm not as certain as you are that it's completely cut and dried (leaving aside the question of whether or not it should be).

408 Obdicut  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:28:18am

re: #380 palomino

The last thing we need is to become balkanized over fast food restaurants. Maybe we can move towards an America with Pepsi in blue states and Coke in red states only. Wouldn't that be great?

For example, I'd hate to see Hooters get kicked out of Salt Lake City. Not that I plan to ever be in another Hooters or SLC again, but neither the political leanings nor the bad food and tacky theme should keep Hooters out of conservative cities...same goes for the douchebaggery of CFA's CEO, it should not be used to keep fried chicken sandwiches out of Boston or other liberal cities.

Salt Lake City is actually a quite liberal city.

Provo is the conservative one.

409 Obdicut  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:30:04am

re: #402 GunstarGreen

Except there's no person being 'punished', it's a store not being allowed to open.

Free speech by a corporation is not the same thing as free speech as an individual.

410 jaunte  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:33:34am

Shep Smith's Chick-fil-A Swipe: 'National Day Of Intolerance'

411 CuriousLurker  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:34:16am

re: #320 Killgore Trout

I get your point but I do support Chick Fil A in this situation although I strongly disagree with their stance on gay marriage. The goal here is to be less of an oppressive asshole than your opponents and this is where many of my fellow "liberals" have lost the plot. Just like with the Rush Limbaugh thing he was way out of line with his slut comments. It should have been an easy victory to make him look like a dick but overreaching attempts to have him driven off the air were just too much and attempts to misuse government authority (fcc) were just way over the line. Same with Chick Fil A. This should have been an easy victory but my fellow "liberals" force me to side with the religious bigots. It's not even a difficult choice for me.

Gosh, KT, all this must be really tough on you. It says a lot about your character that you're willing to come here day in & day out, selflessly condescending to assist your fellow "liberals" by pointing out our logical & moral failings.

And what recompense to you get for your sincerest of efforts? Do we thank you for your beneficence? Do we laud your keen insight and retire to do the necessary serious introspection? No! All you get are down-dings & snark.

You should change your nic to St. Killgore. Here, I baked this especially for you. *hands KT a special Ramadan martyr cookie*

412 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:34:19am

re: #409 Obdicut

Except there's no person being 'punished', it's a store not being allowed to open.

Free speech by a corporation is not the same thing as free speech as an individual.

A private person is allowed to discriminate by race, gender, religion, etc. That is covered by the First Amendment. But a company, especially a public business such as a restaurant, operates under different rules; the Civil Rights of the employees and customers take precedence.

413 Achilles Tang  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:34:56am

re: #401 Gus

[Embedded content]

If you want to quote all that sort of thing from WND there wouldn't be any room left for the rest of us to post here.

414 Obdicut  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:35:08am

Some plane rides go better than others.

Image: enhanced-buzz-10177-1334090855-107.jpg

415 makeitstop  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:36:55am

re: #411 CuriousLurker

Gosh, KT, all this must be really tough on you. It says a lot about your character that you're willing to come here day in & day out, selflessly condescending to assist your fellow "liberals" by pointing out our logical & moral failings.

And what recompense to you get for your sincerest of efforts? Do we thank you for your beneficence? Do we laud your keen insight and retire to do the necessary serious introspection? No! All you get are down-dings & snark.

You should change your nic to St. Killgore. Here, I baked this especially for you. *hands KT a special Ramadan martyr cookie*

I regret that I have but one upding for this post.

416 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:37:12am

re: #407 erik_t

I have been on an Internet Quest this morning to determine whether or not this actually is so -- to what degree an individual is guaranteed the right to a business license, to what degree mayors have broad and sweeping powers to act in the nebulous good of their community, things like that. I haven't yet been successful.

I'm not as certain as you are that it's completely cut and dried (leaving aside the question of whether or not it should be).

It's a tricky issue. I don't think you'll find much legal precedent for a Mayor denying a business legal rights based on differing political ideas. It just wouldn't stand up in court. The closest legal concept I can think of is something like Eminent domain . Ideologically it's kind of similar (community good over the rights of an individual) but I don't think the concept could be stretched to include something like the gay marriage debate.

417 erik_t  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:37:45am

re: #414 Obdicut

Some plane rides go better than others.

Image: enhanced-buzz-10177-1334090855-107.jpg

The best plane rides are the ones that are actually on a train ;)

418 Mocking Jay  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:39:53am

re: #417 erik_t

The best plane rides are the ones that are actually on a train ;)

I thought those windows looked a little too rectangular to me...

419 Targetpractice  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:40:53am

re: #416 Killgore Trout

It's a tricky issue. I don't think you'll find much legal precedent for a Mayor denying a business legal rights based on differing political ideas. It just wouldn't stand up in court. The closest legal concept I can think of is something like Eminent domain . Ideologically it's kind of similar (community good over the rights of an individual) but I don't think the concept could be stretched to include something like the gay marriage debate.

The best theoretical situation I've found is passing city ordinance designed to keep a particular type of business from operating within city limits. Problem of course is that Chick-Fil-A is not the only restaurants out there selling chicken or chicken sandwiches. Any ordinance designed to keep them out of a city would mean sending others out, which would mean a long protracted court battle over the legality of the ordinance.

420 The Left  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:41:13am

re: #418 Mocking Jay

is your nic a Hunger Games reference, or just you being funny? :)

421 jaunte  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:41:23am

re: #401 Gus

Good post by Milt Shook, he sums up the case quite well.

422 Mocking Jay  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:41:45am

re: #420 Millicent Islam

is your nic a Hunger Games reference, or just you being funny? :)

Yes.

:)

423 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:41:49am

re: #417 erik_t

The best plane rides are the ones that are actually on a train ;)

I was thinking a bus.

424 palomino  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:41:53am

re: #408 Obdicut

re: #380 palomino

Salt Lake City is actually a quite liberal city.

Provo is the conservative one.

Yeah, it was a shitty analogy. Just trying to come up with something on the opposite end of bible thumping chicken.

SLC's county was IIRC the only part of Utah that went for Obama. A lot of western states were like that...the one larger city for Obama, rest of state for McCain...Boise in ID, etc

425 The Left  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:42:16am

re: #422 Mocking Jay

Yes.

:)

lol, serves me right.

426 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:42:53am

re: #401 Gus

WND writer says Chick-fil-A protests prove that Christians are about to be targeted for a Holocaust bit.ly/Mf0g4O

— Right Wing Watch (@RightWingWatch) August 2, 2012

So I guess the NYC Mosque shit prove the muslims are about to be targeted for a Crusade. Guess they should arm up and get on the attack like the christians should, huh?

427 Obdicut  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:42:56am

re: #416 Killgore Trout

It's a tricky issue. I don't think you'll find much legal precedent for a Mayor denying a business legal rights based on differing political ideas.

Menino says he can't actually do it, he can just let everyone concerned know how he feels.

[Link: bostonherald.com...]

The alderman in Chicago probably can block it, using one of the many already existing legal precedents for a city or area of the city blocking a business from opening. You do know this happens all the time, right? Not only are individual business licences and proposals reviewed, but often towns or cities forbid entire groups, like big-box stores, from moving in.

428 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:43:22am

re: #419 Targetpractice

The best theoretical situation I've found is passing city ordinance designed to keep a particular type of business from operating within city limits. Problem of course is that Chick-Fil-A is not the only restaurants out there selling chicken or chicken sandwiches. Any ordinance designed to keep them out of a city would mean sending others out, which would mean a long protracted court battle over the legality of the ordinance.

There are things like bans on porn stores, soda taxes, etc but the difference is that these laws are based on the actual nature of the business in question not the unrelated rights of the owner.

429 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:47:15am

Shit-fil-A™

430 jaunte  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:50:26am

re: #429 Gus

Why Your Chicken Is Still Making You Sick

"Poultry production falls under the oversight of the US Department of Agriculture's Food Safety and Inspection Service—and amazingly, the USDA has proposed new rules that would essentially eliminate its own inspectors from poultry plants, leaving inspection to the industry itself, while also allowing for a dramatically speeded-up kill line."

431 Obdicut  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:51:40am

re: #430 jaunte

Buy local. Of course, a lot of lower-income people in urban areas don't have that luxury.

I grind my own meat.

432 Mocking Jay  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:51:54am

re: #430 jaunte

Why Your Chicken Is Still Making You Sick

The Free Market will protect us!

433 jaunte  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:52:23am

re: #431 Obdicut

I switched to about 98% veg this year.

434 garhighway  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:52:38am

re: #430 jaunte

Why Your Chicken Is Still Making You Sick

"Poultry production falls under the oversight of the US Department of Agriculture's Food Safety and Inspection Service—and amazingly, the USDA has proposed new rules that would essentially eliminate its own inspectors from poultry plants, leaving inspection to the industry itself, while also allowing for a dramatically speeded-up kill line."

Hard to see what could go wrong.

435 Obdicut  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:53:25am

Actually, the Chicago guy is now saying his concern is actual discrimination occurring, not speech. He's a very poor speaker, so it's hard to really tell what he's saying.

436 garhighway  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:53:33am

re: #431 Obdicut

I grind my own meat.

Is that what you kids are calling it these days?

437 jaunte  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:53:45am

re: #434 garhighway

We're the petri dish of the deregulated free market.

438 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:53:52am

re: #431 Obdicut

[snip]

I grind my own meat.

I pay extra for someone else to do it for me.

// Oh sorry. We're talking about food. Never-mind.

439 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:54:02am

re: #430 jaunte

Why Your Chicken Is Still Making You Sick

Compressed "chicken product." I eat a lot of microwave chicken meals. Chicken this, chicken that. I do know that poultry industry presents some rather macabre production techniques like drowning chicks or sending the chicks straight into an industrial grinder.

440 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:54:39am

re: #434 garhighway

"Poultry production falls under the oversight of the US Department of Agriculture's Food Safety and Inspection Service—and amazingly, the USDA has proposed new rules that would essentially eliminate its own inspectors from poultry plants, leaving inspection to the industry itself, while also allowing for a dramatically speeded-up kill line."

Hard to see what could go wrong.

Yeah, since chicken is such a sanitary product during processing.

441 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:55:38am
442 Achilles Tang  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:56:53am

re: #320 Killgore Trout

I get your point but I do support Chick Fil A in this situation although I strongly disagree with their stance on gay marriage. The goal here is to be less of an oppressive asshole than your opponents and this is where many of my fellow "liberals" have lost the plot. Just like with the Rush Limbaugh thing he was way out of line with his slut comments. It should have been an easy victory to make him look like a dick but overreaching attempts to have him driven off the air were just too much and attempts to misuse government authority (fcc) were just way over the line. Same with Chick Fil A. This should have been an easy victory but my fellow "liberals" force me to side with the religious bigots. It's not even a difficult choice for me.

I do believe that I have heard many on the right suggest that those who disagree with them should protest with their feet or wallets if they don't like something; like leave the country or don't buy stock in a company and so on.

Are you suggesting that those who disagree with this bigoted company should boycott, but do it quietly? There is no such thing as a "neat" disagreement with the soldiers of God and they should get at least as good as they give.

443 wrenchwench  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 9:57:43am

re: #430 jaunte

Why Your Chicken Is Still Making You Sick

I quit eating it about thirty years ago after getting sick three times in a row from eating (probably undercooked) chicken. Otherwise, I'm fairly omnivorous. Except for anything that tastes like licorice.

444 Achilles Tang  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 10:00:05am

re: #428 Killgore Trout

There are things like bans on porn stores, soda taxes, etc but the difference is that these laws are based on the actual nature of the business in question not the unrelated rights of the owner.

The owner in this case sets the policy of the company. I have no doubt that if gays had to wear armbands they would be refused service there. The only reason this is news IS because the chicken shop makes a big deal of their Sunday closings and so on.

445 Gus  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 10:00:26am

re: #443 wrenchwench

I quit eating it about thirty years ago after getting sick three times in a row from eating (probably undercooked) chicken. Otherwise, I'm fairly omnivorous. Except for anything that tastes like licorice.

I know I mentioned the microwave thing before but several years ago I used to eat out a lot. Lots of chicken was also involved including Chinese or Mexican restaurants. I didn't exactly get sick a lot but the gastro intestinal disturbances were frequent and within 24 hours of eating at said establishments. Now? I eat these microwave dinners and barely have any problems.

446 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 10:01:15am

re: #442 Achilles Tang

Are you suggesting that those who disagree with this bigoted company should boycott, but do it quietly?

I'm not a fan of these boycotts personally but using government agencies and politicians to silence or financially punish citizens with different views or supporting different causes is way over the line for me.

447 Obdicut  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 10:05:03am

re: #446 Killgore Trout

I'm not a fan of these boycotts personally but using government agencies and politicians to silence or financially punish citizens with different views or supporting different causes is way over the line for me.

There appear to be two cases of this: Boston, and Chicago. In the case of Boston, Menino has said he can't block the opening of the store but he personally thinks they're bad for Boston.

In the case of Chicago, the alderman appears to be saying there's actual discrimination he's responding to by CFA, and that that's the problem, not speech.

Are there other examples I'm unaware of, or for some reason are you choosing to focus on just these two, and ignore that Menino has said he can't actually block the opening of it?

And why do you keep talking about citizens being financially punished, when we're talking about a corporation, not a citizen?

448 wrenchwench  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 10:06:33am

re: #445 Gus

I know I mentioned the microwave thing before but several years ago I used to eat out a lot. Lots of chicken was also involved including Chinese or Mexican restaurants. I didn't exactly get sick a lot but the gastro intestinal disturbances were frequent and within 24 hours of eating at said establishments. Now? I eat these microwave dinners and barely have any problems.

That's because they cook the shit out of it. (To be perhaps too blunt.)

449 garhighway  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 10:06:49am

re: #446 Killgore Trout

I'm not a fan of these boycotts personally but using government agencies and politicians to silence or financially punish citizens with different views or supporting different causes is way over the line for me.

What if, in the service of the owner's political beliefs, the company was a chronic violator of the law?

I draw the line between beliefs/speech and conduct. You can believe whatever you want, but if you manifest that belief by behaving illegally, the state gets to respond. If your company is a chronic violator of labor laws, for example, it should expect that those public bodies that grant it permits might look askance at that behavior.

450 jaunte  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 10:09:44am

The Cult of Chick-fil-A

"Loyalty to the company isn't the only thing that matters to Cathy, who wants married workers, believing they are more industrious and productive. One in three company operators have attended Christian-based relationship-building retreats through WinShape at Berry College in Mount Berry, Ga. The programs include classes on conflict resolution and communication. Family members of prospective operators--children, even--are frequently interviewed so Cathy and his family can learn more about job candidates and their relationships at home."

451 Obdicut  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 10:10:29am

re: #450 jaunte

Family members of prospective operators--children, even--are frequently interviewed so Cathy and his family can learn more about job candidates and their relationships at home."

How can that be legal?

452 jaunte  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 10:11:24am

re: #451 Obdicut

If the 'prospective operators' give their permission, I guess it is, but it seems extremely intrusive.

453 CuriousLurker  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 10:11:31am

re: #450 jaunte

The Cult of Chick-fil-A

That's creepy, and some of it is illegal.

454 CuriousLurker  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 10:13:03am

re: #452 jaunte

If the 'prospective operators' give their permission, I guess it is, but it seems extremely intrusive.

Ah, "operators". I wasn't paying attention. I guess they wouldn't be employees.

455 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 10:16:13am

re: #451 Obdicut

How can that be legal?

The parent company asks people who apply for an operator license to disclose marital status, number of dependents and involvement in "community, civic, social, church and/or professional organizations."

But Danielle Alderson, 30, a Baltimore operator, says some fellow franchisees find that Chick-fil-A butts into its workers' personal lives a bit much. She says she can't hire a good manager who, say, moonlights at a strip club because it would irk the company. "We are watched very closely by Chick-fil-A," she says. "It's very weird."

Is it legal? There are no federal laws that prohibit companies from asking nosy questions about religion and marital status during interviews. Most companies don't because it can open them up to discrimination claims, says James Ryan, a spokesman for the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. Chick-fil-A has more freedom to ask whatever it wants of franchisees because they are independent contractors and not necessarily subject to federal employment discrimination laws. (Employees, however, may sue under those laws.)

Chick-fil-A, the corporate parent, has been sued at least 12 times since 1988 on charges of employment discrimination, according to records in U.S. District Courts. Aziz Latif, a former Chick-fil-A restaurant manager in Houston, sued the company in 2002 after Latif, a Muslim, says he was fired a day after he didn't participate in a group prayer to Jesus Christ at a company training program in 2000. The suit was settled on undisclosed terms.

The company might face more suits if it didn't screen potential hires and operators so carefully. Many Chick-fil-A job candidates must endure a yearlong vetting process that includes dozens of interviews. Ty Yokum, the training manager for the chain, sat through 7 interviews and didn't get the job. He reapplied in 1991 and was subjected to another 17 interviews--the final one lasted five hours--and was hired. Bureon Ledbetter, Chick-fil-A's general counsel, says the company works hard to select people like Yokum, who "fit." "We want operators who support the values here," Ledbetter says.

456 AK-47%  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 10:18:48am

re: #430 jaunte

Why Your Chicken Is Still Making You Sick

The Law of The Jungle. As in Upton Sinclair...

457 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 10:19:14am

re: #441 Gus

The FDA has acknowledged that daily small doses of antibiotics gives rise to meat laced with resistant pathogens: mojo.ly/Osyt5z

— Mother Jones (@MotherJones) August 2, 2012

Pretty much a given. Those anti-bacterial soaps and cleaners always say something like "Kills 98% of bacteria/germs". Those other 2% are resistant to it, so those 2% are breeding other 2%'r (inherited) resistant forms of itself. And this is not a small number even if it is only 2%. If there are 100 on you and you kill 98% that takes out all but 2, but we are talking millions/billions so the 2% is still a very large number of survivors. Pretty soon it is not hard to see how those surviving 2% start making up the majority of the bacteria/germs occupying that niche in nature. Then that cleaner/antibiotic/soap is worthless after awhile.

458 BongCrodny  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 2:42:44pm
“Well, seeing as how Dick — excuse me, Vice President Cheney — never misfires, then evidently, he’s quite convinced that what he had evidently read about me by the lamestream media — having been written what I believe is a false narrative over the last four years — evidently, Dick Cheney believes that stuff, and that’s a shame,” Palin said on Fox News’s “On The Record with Greta Van Susteren.”

I'd give a dollar to anyone who can diagram that sentence.


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