Libertarian Kook Wayne Allyn Root Floats Another Wingnut Conspiracy Theory

And all the right wing media sites and blogs eagerly promote it
Wingnuts • Views: 38,067

Question: How many US presidents have released their college transcripts?

Answer: Zero. That’s right, none of them.

But this doesn’t stop today’s deranged right wing from demanding to see President Obama’s transcripts — years after he was elected.

And today, the wingnuts are all raving in unison (again) about an utterly ridiculous article published at Glenn Beck’s “The Blaze” pseudo-news site by libertarian wacko Wayne Allyn Root, breathlessly titled: Root: Obama’s College Classmate: ‘The Obama Scandal Is at Columbia’.

I am President Obama’s classmate at Columbia University, Class of ’83. I am also one of the most accurate Las Vegas oddsmakers and prognosticators. Accurate enough that I was awarded my own star on the Las Vegas Walk of Stars. And I smell something rotten in Denmark. Obama has a big skeleton in his closet. It’s his college records. Call it “gut instinct” but my gut is almost always right. Obama has a secret hidden at Columbia- and it’s a bad one that threatens to bring down his presidency. Gut instinct is how I’ve made my living for 29 years since graduating Columbia.

This is how stupid the right wing has become. Root actually says outright in this article that he never met Obama — never even heard of him at Columbia, in fact. He has absolutely no evidence for his overheated accusations. And that, in the delusional wingnut universe, means Obama must have done something illegal or unethical, probably involving affirmative action.

Here’s my gut belief: Obama got a leg up by being admitted to both Occidental and Columbia as a foreign exchange student. He was raised as a young boy in Indonesia. But did his mother ever change him back to a U.S. citizen? When he returned to live with his grandparents in Hawaii or as he neared college-age preparing to apply to schools, did he ever change his citizenship back? I’m betting not.

If you could unseal Obama’s Columbia University records I believe you’d find that:

A)   He rarely ever attended class.

B)   His grades were not those typical of what we understand it takes to get into Harvard Law School.

C)   He attended Columbia as a foreign exchange student.

D)   He paid little for either undergraduate college or Harvard Law School because of foreign aid and scholarships given to a poor foreign students like this kid Barry Soetoro from Indonesia.

The right wing loves this kind of brain-dead conspiracy theory, especially when you add in that little hint of racism.

And it couldn’t be more obvious that the reason they’re all freaking out in unison is to divert attention away from Mitt Romney’s refusal to release financial information.

Jump to bottom

258 comments
1 Bulworth  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 10:43:16am
I am also one of the most accurate Las Vegas oddsmakers and prognosticators. Accurate enough that I was awarded my own star on the Las Vegas Walk of Stars.

Gosh, that's good enough for me. What a professional. /

2 AK-47%  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 10:49:30am

And I have a gut belief that Romney did not pay any taxes.

3 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 10:51:41am

By that logic, someone else at Columbia U at that same time period could claim that WAR never attended Columbia because they never saw or heard of WAR either. Where's his transcript and proof of attendance? After all, we're talking about more than 1,000 students per class year. You mean to tell me that you would know or recognize everyone in your class year?

But we're going to go along with all this nonsense, bluster, and BS on WAR's gut?

Well, the right wing is. So much for fact-based reality.

Besides, he needed to provide a transcript to attend law school (as well as the applicable LSAT scores). Harvard isn't going to admit without those - and that's ignoring all the nonsense about whether the President was a beneficiary of affirmative action or not. He'd still need to show that he graduated from a 4-year school with degree.

4 Kragar  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 10:53:19am

OBAMA IS COLOMBIAN!?!?!?!
///

5 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 10:55:13am

re: #1 Bulworth

All someone has to do to get on the Walk of Stars is to have someone nominate and pony up $20k for the application as long as they meet the qualifications.

A donation of $20,000 is required for each star. Check should be made payable to Las Vegas Walk of Stars, (Tax ID #[redacted]), reported as such to the IRS, and is not refundable. A $10,000 deposit is due at confirmation date, the remaining balance of $10,000, is due 30 days prior to star dedication day. This cost includes all expenses related to the shipping, manufacturing and imbedding of the Star, various proclamations, a Walk of Stars Plaque, the sound needed for the dedication ceremony, flowers for lady honorees, publicity, press releases, radio/TV interviews, liability insurance and applicable fees.

6 Locker  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 10:55:49am

I have a gut feeling that:

1. Someone is an attention whore who's trying to raise their stock
2. No real evidence of wrong doing by Obama exists so their just making it up as they go along
3. These people are morons

7 Khorramdin  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 10:55:51am

I love this part:

He attended Columbia as a foreign exchange student.

You could totally tell he was a foreign exchange student by his typical american accent...

8 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 10:57:45am

Foreign students have to pay full tuition, they are not usually eligible for any student financial aid programs unless it's paid for by their own government.

9 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 10:59:18am

re: #6 Locker

He's a 'prognosticator'. Someone telling you that is telling you that he's a bullshit artist.

10 mr.fusion  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 10:59:20am

I don't understand this thinking

Shouldn't it be tax returns for tax returns and college transcripts for college transcripts?

Has Romney released his college transcripts yet? What is he hiding? (I bet he's a Kenyan)

11 Achilles Tang  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 10:59:37am

I wasn't aware that US citizens had to give up their citizenship if they went to live in another country, then "change it back" when they returned. I must have broken the law many times on that score. I hope nobody notices.

12 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 10:59:42am

re: #5 lawhawk

All someone has to do to get on the Walk of Stars is to have someone nominate and pony up $20k for the application as long as they meet the qualifications.

I had just seen that when I looked up the walk. You got it first. The best acclaim money can buy.

13 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 10:59:52am

re: #10 mr.fusion

I don't understand this thinking

Shouldn't it be tax returns for tax returns and college transcripts for college transcripts?

Has Romney released his college transcripts yet? What is he hiding? (I bet he's a Kenyan)

Romney is a Mexican!
//

14 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:00:58am

And because I know someone is going to claim that George W. Bush released his college transcripts -- no. He didn't. The transcripts were leaked to the New Yorker. Bush fought against releasing them.

15 Kragar  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:01:28am
I am also one of the most accurate Las Vegas oddsmakers and prognosticators. ... Call it “gut instinct” but my gut is almost always right.

I was unaware the notion of a self reading Haruspex was taken so seriously by conservatives.

16 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:01:54am

Idiots. There are real substantive issues Obama is vulnerable on. Apparently those things are off the table for campaigning or discussion. What a way to run a railroad.

17 jaunte  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:02:29am

Curiosity’s First Color Photo From Mars:
[Link: www.wired.com...]
No sign yet of Michelle Bachmann, but the cameras are still a little dusty.

18 Sionainn  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:02:36am

re: #1 Bulworth

Gosh, that's good enough for me. What a professional. /

Repeated from the previous thread:

As a Las Vegas native, I had to look up the Las Vegas Walk of Stars. Didn't even know we had such a thing. It looks like something that was started in 2004 and over half the names are unrecognizable to me. LOL.

19 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:03:09am

re: #17 jaunte

Marstagram!

20 mr.fusion  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:03:36am

Wayne Allen Root has a big skeleton in his closet. It's the basement dungeon where he keeps the last remaining Dodo birds for their delicious eggs.

Call it gut instinct....but my gut is almost always right

21 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:04:01am

re: #17 jaunte

Curiosity’s First Color Photo From Mars:
[Link: www.wired.com...]
No sign yet of Michelle Bachmann, but the cameras are still a little dusty.

I'm waiting to see Scary Jew Shadow.

22 The Mountain That Blogs  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:04:09am

"But did his mother ever change him back to a U.S. citizen?"

So rather than claim he isn't a citizen, the claim is now that he was a citizen, then wasn't. Got it.

Derp

23 Kragar  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:05:51am

I guess the question now is was he a citizen of the United States Corporation or a citizen of the Republic of the United States?
///

24 Spider Mensch  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:06:13am

re: #18 Sionainn

Repeated from the previous thread:

As a Las Vegas native, I had to look up the Las Vegas Walk of Stars. Didn't even know we had such a thing. It looks like something that was started in 2004 and over half the names are unrecognizable to me. LOL.

hmmm.. I wonder if Hyman Roth bought one for Moe Green??

/never go against the family Fredo..

25 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:06:13am

re: #21 Learned Mother of Zion

I'm waiting to see Scary Jew Shadow.

Jews In Space...

Didn't Mel Brooks do that?

26 JeffM70  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:06:57am

re: #5 lawhawk

It's like bragging about being in "Who's Who?"

27 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:07:11am

re: #25 ArchangelMichael

Jews In Space...

Didn't Mel Brooks do that?

28 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:08:38am

re: #24 Spider Mensch

It's BS. Bugsy Siegel isn't mentioned anywhere in the Walk of Fame, even though he was one of the major players in getting Vegas off the ground.

29 Patricia Kayden  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:09:16am

At least one of your commenters tried to equate Obama "not releasing his transcripts" to Romney not releasing his taxes in another thread.

Let the Righties waste time talking about Obama's college transcripts while he trounces their candidate in November. That's fine with me.

30 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:10:13am

re: #23 Kragar

I guess the question now is was he a citizen of the United States Corporation or a citizen of the Republic of the United States?
///

"Anyone can buy OCP USA stock and own a piece of our city country. What could be more democratic than that?"

31 jaunte  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:10:57am

Of making many conspiracies there is no end.

Rival wingnuts see Wayne Allyn Roots's transcript tempest and raise him an "unholy alliance between Obama and Islam."

Right-Wing Activists Warn Obama is working with Islamists to bring down Christianity, the West and America

George Neumayr, American Spectator: Obama may begin to have “Christian chaplains and privates” be “court martialed” during his second term.

32 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:12:23am

re: #9 Obdicut

He's a 'prognosticator'. Someone telling you that is telling you that he's a bullshit artist.

They prefer to be addressed as "stand up philosopher".

33 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:12:55am

re: #32 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Oh, a Bull Shit Artist. /

34 AK-47%  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:12:57am

re: #25 ArchangelMichael

Jews In Space...

Didn't Mel Brooks do that?

I remember "Amish in Space" from an old National Lampoon and, of course "Pigs in Space" from the muppets

35 erik_t  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:13:05am
George Neumayr, American Spectator: Obama may begin to have “Christian chaplains and privates” be “court martialed” during his second term.

He may do that? Well, I suppose that's technically accurate. The sun may also not rise tomorrow.

FactCheck rates both claims as 'partly true'.

36 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:15:01am

re: #34 Expand Your Ground

I remember "Amish in Space" from an old National Lampoon and, of course "Pigs in Space" from the muppets

"Jews in Space" is from the trailer for _History of the World - Part II. Along with "Hitler On Ice".

37 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:15:55am

re: #35 erik_t

He may do that? Well, I suppose that's technically accurate. The sun may also not rise tomorrow.

FactCheck rates both claims as 'partly true'.

The true part is that there are privates and Christian chaplains in the army. :p

38 AK-47%  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:16:48am

re: #31 jaunte

Of making many conspiracies there is no end.

Rival wingnuts see Wayne Allyn Roots's transcript tempest and raise him an "unholy alliance between Obama and Islam."

Right-Wing Activists Warn Obama is working with Islamists to bring down Christianity, the West and America

And he might start taking away our guns as well...starting, of course, with right-wing radicals' guns...God forbid!!!

/

39 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:18:39am

My brother was at Occidental at the same time Obama was, and my brother doesn't remember him either!!!1 He must have been invisible!1!

40 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:20:09am

I see Mr. Root has much experience with fantasy:

Wayne Allyn Root is a former Libertarian vice presidential nominee and the author of “The Conscience of a Libertarian.”

41 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:21:02am

re: #31 jaunte

Of making many conspiracies there is no end.

Rival wingnuts see Wayne Allyn Roots's transcript tempest and raise him an "unholy alliance between Obama and Islam."

Right-Wing Activists Warn Obama is working with Islamists to bring down Christianity, the West and America

At risk of conjuring the MBF... a lot of "left-wing" activists and pundits swore up and down that GWB was going to re-institute the draft on day one of his second term (among a litany of other things that didn't happen).

The fear-mongering by the fringes going into an election knows no bounds.

42 funky chicken  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:22:54am

Sub-par furriners don't get into Columbia or Harvard no matter what color they are. And they certainly don't get financial aid. I'm not sure how one graduates from Columbia without knowing that.

43 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:23:47am

re: #39 wrenchwench

My brother was at Occidental at the same time Obama was, and my brother doesn't remember him either!!!1 He must have been invisible!1!

That same brother has lived outside the US for 25 years, and is still a US citizen, and is going to vote for Obama, again. He has never had to change his citizenship "back".

44 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:24:36am

I only remember 4 other students I went to college with.

The rest totally did not exist!

45 Kragar  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:25:00am

Right-Wing Activists Warn Obama is working with Islamists to bring down Christianity, the West and America

Frank Gaffney last week hosted George Neumayr of the American Spectator, who co-authored the new book No Higher Power: Obama’s War on Religious Freedom with Eagle Forum founder Phyllis Schlafly, to discuss what Gaffney calls the “Red-Green axis,” or the supposed alliance between progressives and radical Islamists. According to Gaffney, Obama “is the personification” of this liberal-Islamist partnership, “it comes together with him.” Neumayr came to a similar conclusion, telling Gaffney that Obama’s views on religion and abortion rights show that he has made Christianity his enemy and is consequently aiding Islam. “This unholy alliance between Obama and Islam is in part based on the common enemy they share, which is Christianity and the West,” Neumayr said, while Gaffney added that it reveals a hostility to “American civilization more broadly.”

46 Gus  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:25:57am

Factcheck Balance Fairy sez since Obama didn't release his college transcripts we rate Wayne Allyn Root's theory as: partly true.

47 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:25:57am
49 Sionainn  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:26:18am

re: #44 Learned Mother of Zion

I only remember 4 other students I went to college with.

The rest totally did not exist!

I don't even know if I remember 4. I went to class because I had to and I left. I didn't get to know people. I had other things to do.

50 jaunte  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:26:24am

re: #41 ArchangelMichael

The fear-mongering by the fringes going into an election knows no bounds.

True, but Frank Gaffney's influence reaches up through John Bolton into the Romney campaign, so he may be more than fringe.

51 Gus  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:27:04am

The conservative war on facts has to be my favorite old trend.

52 AK-47%  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:27:05am

re: #45 Kragar

Right-Wing Activists Warn Obama is working with Islamists to bring down Christianity, the West and America

Expect more and more of this, inasmuch as Romney has nothing he can run on: no concrete plans for tax reform, he cannot mention his tenure in Massachusetts or at Bain, and all that remains is fear and hatred of Obama and everything he is going to do to America...

53 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:28:14am

re: #51 Gus

The conservative war on facts has to be my favorite old trend.

Mostly false.
Or
Partly true.
Same.
Thing.

54 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:28:33am

re: #45 Kragar

Gaffney added that it reveals a hostility to “American civilization more broadly.”

This civilized American broad hereby reveals her hostility to Gaffney.

55 erik_t  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:28:47am

re: #52 Expand Your Ground

Expect more and more of this, inasmuch as Romney has nothing he can run on: no concrete plans for tax reform, he cannot mention his tenure in Massachusetts or at Bain, and all that remains is fear and hatred of Obama and everything he is going to do to America...

I think the Romney campaign took away the wrong message from the early polling successes of Gene Ric Republican.

Next-level empty suit.

56 Gus  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:29:11am

re: #53 Varek Raith

Mostly false.
Or
Partly true.
Same.
Thing.

Mostly sunny...

57 Sionainn  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:29:18am

re: #45 Kragar

Right-Wing Activists Warn Obama is working with Islamists to bring down Christianity, the West and America

It's ridiculous that Obama being comfortable with Muslims because he grew up with Muslims and doesn't find them "scary" gets translated into the above. Bunch of jingoistic morons.

58 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:29:18am

REID SMASH

59 funky chicken  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:29:35am

re: #45 Kragar

Right-Wing Activists Warn Obama is working with Islamists to bring down Christianity, the West and America

Huh. When's the Gaffney book about Grover Norquist coming out? Poor Frank's lost it.

60 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:29:46am

re: #54 wrenchwench

This civilized American broad hereby reveals her hostility to Gaffney.

I think Gaffney's version of what American Civilization consists of probably deserves hostility.

61 Lidane  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:31:19am

re: #49 Sionainn

I don't even know if I remember 4. I went to class because I had to and I left. I didn't get to know people. I had other things to do.

I know my graduate cohort because we spent two years together in the same classroom. We had no choice but to know each other.

I only keep in touch with one person from my undergrad years, and that's because we made the effort at becoming friends. I'd be hard pressed to identify anyone else I had classes with in undergrad.

62 Kragar  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:31:22am

Cal Beisner Rallies the Troops to Fight the 'Spiritual World War'

This is the launch of what we intend to be a multi-year educational program to help people to understand what are the common roots behind a lot of the challenges that the Christian faith and frankly the whole Judeo-Christian civilization faces.

Whether it's naturalistic Darwinism with the eugenics and population control and government family-planning programs that come out of it with coerced sterilization and abortion and euthanasia. Or free-sex, no-fault divorce, gender confusion, homosexual so-called marriage, polygamy and polyamory. Or radical environmentalism, animal rights, ecosystem rights and Gaia worship. Or the war on abundant, affordable, reliable energy. Or ever-tightening environmental regulations at federal and state levels. Or eco-imperialist rules that are forced on poor nations, and more.

What we recognize is that all of these are rooted in the rejection of the fundamental biblical doctrines of God and humanity. All these different threats are not isolated; they're different parts of a spiritual world war. It's not primarily a political war, it's certainly not primarily a military war, it's a spiritual world war and we as Christians have got to recognize that spiritual enemy and then bring spiritual weapons into battle against that.

63 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:31:34am

re: #46 Gus

There has been at least a temporary victory in the liberal war on facts. The New Obama superPAC commercial accusing Mitt of killing people with cancer get a rare "no opinion" from WaPo's factcheckers.
New anti-Romney ad: same steelworker, tougher message

We will leave it to the judgement of readers about whether such comments are appropriate, and not offer a new Pinocchio rating.

Keep up the pressure! Hopefully the pressure is mounting and the factcheckers will stop their pesky fact checking!

64 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:32:37am

re: #35 erik_t

He may do that? Well, I suppose that's technically accurate. The sun may also not rise tomorrow.

FactCheck rates both claims as 'partly true'.

Who would we look to for fact checking? MSNBC or Fox? LOL.

How would you rate Factcheck on these stories?
Obama Not Trying to Curb Military Early Voting

Romney’s Impossible Tax Promise
Experts say he can't cut rates without losing revenue or favoring the wealthy.

Romney, Obama Uphold Health Care Falsehoods

Presidential candidates supremely spin court decision.

65 Gus  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:32:39am

re: #63 Killgore Trout

There has been at least a temporary victory in the liberal war on facts. The New Obama superPAC commercial accusing Mitt of killing people with cancer get a rare "no opinion" from WaPo's factcheckers.
New anti-Romney ad: same steelworker, tougher message

Keep up the pressure! Hopefully the pressure is mounting and the factcheckers will stop their pesky fact checking!

Partly true.

66 Gus  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:33:16am

re: #64 Daniel Ballard

Who would we look to for fact checking? MSNBC or Fox? LOL.

How would you rate Factcheck on these stories?
Obama Not Trying to Curb Military Early Voting

Romney’s Impossible Tax Promise
Experts say he can't cut rates without losing revenue or favoring the wealthy.

Romney, Obama Uphold Health Care Falsehoods

Presidential candidates supremely spin court decision.

Partly false.

67 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:33:53am

re: #63 Killgore Trout

What are your thoughts on Politifact saying Reid's comments about Romney's taxes are a pants on fire lie while saying Romney's comments on the lawsuit about voting in Ohio is merely false?

68 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:35:57am
69 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:36:06am

re: #67 Varek Raith

What are your thoughts on Politifact saying Reid's comments about Romney's taxes are a pants on fire lie while saying Romney's comments on the lawsuit about voting in Ohio is merely false?

We discussed that earlier. It's like debating birthers or truthers. It's a pointless debate.

70 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:36:17am

re: #62 Kragar

Cal Beisner Rallies the Troops to Fight the 'Spiritual World War'

Hey Cal, bite me in the spiritual sense.


[Edited for fat finger]

71 AK-47%  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:36:47am

re: #63 Killgore Trout

There has been at least a temporary victory in the liberal war on facts. The New Obama superPAC commercial accusing Mitt of killing people with cancer get a rare "no opinion" from WaPo's factcheckers.
New anti-Romney ad: same steelworker, tougher message

Keep up the pressure! Hopefully the pressure is mounting and the factcheckers will stop their pesky fact checking!

Mitt Romney did not suffocate this fellow's wife with a pillow!!! We deny those charges!!!11!1!

72 Lidane  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:36:52am
And it couldn’t be more obvious that the reason they’re all freaking out in unison is to divert attention away from Mitt Romney’s refusal to release financial information.

I think it's more than that. They're desperate to make people forget that Mitt Romney is just a terrible candidate all the way around. The GOP needs to keep the lunatic base motivated and pissed off at Obama so they'll forget that they hate Mitt Romney for many of the same reasons they hate Obama, and so they'll go vote. Ergo, they keep coming out with these ludicrous theories that he's "unknown" or somehow still a strange, foreign Other that we don't have any clue about.

It's as if they've forgotten that the Secret Service, the FBI, and the CIA all exist, and that Barack Obama would have undergone background checks both as a Senator to get his security clearances and again as POTUS. It's weird, but born completely out of desperation over the fact that they have a shitty candidate at the top of their ticket.

73 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:37:32am

re: #69 Killgore Trout

We discussed that earlier. It's like debating birthers or truthers. It's a pointless debate.

Copout.
What are your thoughts on it?
What makes what Reid said a bigger lie than what Romney said?
One is a lie directed at one person.
The other an entire freaking state.
Why is Reid's lie bigger?

XD

74 erik_t  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:37:44am

re: #64 Daniel Ballard

Who would we look to for fact checking? MSNBC or Fox? LOL.

How would you rate Factcheck on these stories?

All three seem legit at first glance.

This in no way invalidates the position taken by many here, that Factcheck and its ilk have made grievous errors and perpetuated falsehoods in several specific cases, these cases being discussed at length.

If you can find anyone who said that Factcheck is always wrong, or wrong in every case, then bringing up unrelated correct reporting might be relevant.

75 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:37:52am

re: #66 Gus

On all 3 or overall? what did they get wrong?

76 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:38:22am

re: #71 Expand Your Ground

Mitt Romney did not suffocate this fellow's wife with a pillow!!! We deny those charges!!!11!1!

Harry Reid's sources say otherwise.

77 Gus  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:38:27am

re: #75 Daniel Ballard

On all 3 or overall?

Heck I don't know. It was a joke.

78 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:39:10am

re: #68 Varek Raith

Anti-abortion group says Obama White House screens unborn babies

Politifact Rating: Mostly False.

Lol.

Also KT, how is this just mostly false?
Seems pure BS to anyone else but Politifact.

79 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:39:11am

re: #73 Varek Raith

Copout.
What are your thoughts on it?
What makes what Reid said a bigger lie than what Romney said?
One is a lie directed at one person.
The other an entire freaking state.
Why is Reid's lie bigger?

XD

Thermite Paint!

80 Kragar  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:39:58am

re: #71 Expand Your Ground

Mitt Romney did not suffocate this fellow's wife with a pillow!!! We deny those charges!!!11!1!

Everyone knows he just tied her to the roof...
///

81 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:40:16am

re: #79 Killgore Trout

Thermite Paint!

Most interesting.
So, questioning Politifact is off limits.
Or 9-11.
Or something.

82 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:41:02am

re: #63 Killgore Trout

Uh, no. The ad has an interview with a steelworker whose wife died of cancer after Romney and Bain destroyed the company he worked at, and he lost his health insurance.

"Accusing Mitt of killing people with cancer" is ridiculous. If you want to be known as a "fact checker" you should start by making factual statements, instead of exaggerating and trolling.

83 Kragar  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:41:10am

re: #81 Varek Raith

Most interesting.
So, questioning Politifact is off limits.
Or 9-11.
Or something.

Why do you hate Amercia?

84 Gus  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:41:32am

WMDs in Iraq?

Mostly false.

Iraq behind 911 attacks?

5 Pinocchios.

85 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:41:40am

re: #83 Kragar

Why do you hate Amercia?

Mostly Pants.

86 Lidane  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:41:49am

re: #82 Charles Johnson

If you want to be known as a "fact checker" you should start by making factual statements, instead of exaggerating and trolling.

QFT

87 JeffM70  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:42:03am

re: #67 Varek Raith

Politifact should be embarassed over that one. Reid's comment warranted an "inconclusive".

88 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:44:08am

re: #81 Varek Raith

Lets just fact check with Ed over at MSNBC & Bill at Fox and see how that works out.

I think if we make the perfect the enemy of the good on fact checking services we will just hurt ourselves.

89 Tigger2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:44:32am

I just wonder when a company will start up to fact check the fact checkers and on and on.

90 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:44:56am

Mostly false is such a stupid phrase anyway.
It implies there is some element of truth to it.
Which that silly unborn baby screening story had none.

91 Gus  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:45:52am
92 JeffM70  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:46:10am

re: #73 Varek Raith

To me it's not whose lie was bigger, but that Politifact gave Reid a "pants on fire" when his statement was neither proven nor disproven. Romney's comment was proven to be a lie. The facts aren't all available to label Reid's comment true or false.

93 Varek Raith  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:46:20am

re: #88 Daniel Ballard

Lets just fact check with Ed over at MSNBC & Bill at Fox and see how that works out.

I think if we make the perfect the enemy of the good on fact checking services we will just hurt ourselves.

I want factchecking without the bull shit.
Care to answer these?
re: #67 Varek Raith


re: #68 Varek Raith

See? What's with the BS on politifacts part?

94 erik_t  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:46:33am

Okay, so, you're Politifact. This is what you get to say about the Reid/Romney kerfluffle

* Reid stated that anonymous but reliable sources had told him Romney paid no federal income tax for ten years
* Anonymous sourcing has general acceptance in the political sphere, although it's unusual for anyone but a reporter to anonymously source information
* We talked to a bunch of tax experts who said it is possible but unlikely that Romney has paid zero federal income tax for ten years
* Few, but nonzero, rich people pay zero income tax
* Romney has not released his returns, as is universal in presidential elections, so we cannot certainly state that Reid's claim is true or false
* The matter must be left open until such time as Reid's source comes out or Romney releases returns; all else must be left open to the intelligent reader's interpretation

That's it. Those are the facts. If you want to be Politifact, that's what you get to say. If you editorialize past that point, I reserve the right to laugh in your face.

95 Interesting Times  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:47:22am
96 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:47:53am

re: #88 Daniel Ballard

I'm not sure what you mean by making the perfect the enemy of the good. The 'fact-checking' sites do a very valuable service in laying out a logical argument and then stating their conclusion.

Sometimes, the conclusion doesn't really make sense. Sometimes, the argument's logic isn't that good. Sometimes, the facts of the case are not all included in the reasoning.

This has happened enough that I take the conclusions of the fact-checking sites with a grain of salt, and then verify the story.

The should not be relied upon as independent arbiters of truth simply because they've declared themselves to be so. That should be reliant on their actual record. They're good; they're not great, and they've fallen down on some very major issues.

97 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:48:46am

re: #93 Varek Raith

It looks like mostly false, the true part being that questions about babies are on the form.Totally false or pants on fire would imply the questions are not even there on the form.

would you like to answer my #64?

98 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:49:00am
99 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:50:09am

Romney shared his tax returns with John McCain.

Harry Reid said 'a Bain investor' told him about Romney's tax returns.

Can we find out whether McCain is a Bain investor?

100 AK-47%  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:50:49am

re: #96 Obdicut

When people lose the ability to think critically, to realize that seemingly contradictory statements can both be true to an extent, then they rely on some "independent body" to simply tell them what to believe.

I rely on Fox news.

/

101 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:51:23am

re: #94 erik_t

In other words, the ability to determine the veracity of the claims is incomplete. It isn't flat out BS pants on fire or partly true. The only way you can judge the claims is based on actual evidence provided.

Romney could put this all to rest by releasing the tax information, but he's not required to do so. From a political perspective, it may be a short term hit, but the longer this goes on, the more that it's a liability.

102 erik_t  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:52:37am

re: #97 Daniel Ballard

It looks like mostly false, the true part being that questions about babies are on the form.Totally false or pants on fire would imply the questions are not even there on the form.

0*0*0*0*1 = 0.2 .....?

103 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:52:40am

re: #62 Kragar

Cal Beisner Rallies the Troops to Fight the 'Spiritual World War'

Man, I can feel the little flecks of spittle flying out of my monitor as I read that.

I must wash my face before I catch whatever Mr. Beisner has.

104 Gus  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:53:26am
105 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:56:46am

re: #102 erik_t

I think you skipped #64.

106 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:58:49am

re: #40 wrenchwench

I see Mr. Root has much experience with fantasy:

Wayne Allyn Root is a former Libertarian vice presidential nominee and the author of “The Conscience of a Libertarian.”

I missed the subtitle: Empowering the Citizen Revolution with God, Guns, Gold & Tax Cuts.

Sheesh.

107 GunstarGreen  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:58:52am

re: #62 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Cal Beisner Rallies the Troops to Fight the 'Spiritual World War'

As I've said here before, and as bears repeating each time: These people are actively engaged in a holy war. They cannot be reasoned with, there can be no compromise. Treating them as some loony fringe you can dismiss out of hand is dangerously naive. As far as they are concerned, it is a war for their very souls, and yet this nation keeps treating them with kid gloves. They will keep working to enact legislation to devastate the real religious freedom of this nation, until the only legally-permitted religion is their flavor of Christianity.

108 erik_t  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:59:23am

re: #105 Daniel Ballard

re: #74 erik_t

Don't believe I did.

109 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:59:45am

re: #96 Obdicut

They are being treated in this thread (and past ones) as if they are far less reliable than they are. Case in point, the non responses to #64 above. I agree with you, it all needs to be read carefully.

But when I compare the fact checkers to the MSM, well it's not the MSM that looks good.

110 Gus  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 11:59:56am

OT. But remember when I brought up the Komen and mammography equipment connection many months back? Well...

Breast Cancer: Komen Oversells Mammograms, Doctors Say

111 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:00:20pm

re: #71 Expand Your Ground

Mitt Romney did not suffocate this fellow's wife with a pillow!!! We deny those charges!!!11!1!

Partly True.
/

112 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:00:34pm

re: #108 erik_t

Sorry missed that replying to Gus.

113 Gus  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:00:39pm
114 erik_t  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:02:55pm

re: #109 Daniel Ballard

But when I compare the fact checkers to the MSM, well it's not the MSM that looks good.

The fact-checkers are the mainstream media. Politifact is a wholly owned and operated subsidiary of the Tampa Bay Times; the WaPo fact checker is obviously part of the Washington Post.

115 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:06:29pm

re: #109 Daniel Ballard

They are being treated in this thread (and past ones) as if they are far less reliable than they are. Case in point, the non responses to #64 above. I agree with you, it all needs to be read carefully.

But when I compare the fact checkers to the MSM, well it's not the MSM that looks good.

First of all, they are the mainstream media, and I don't know why you think they aren't. And another thing is, there's no reason for them to have made the fuckups that they did. They don't really have any firm standards; sometimes they judge things as true or false on literal terms, and other times they hold people to the spirit of statements. They really do seem to be trying to be 'balanced', which, in an unbalanced situation, biases them.

That they've hurt their credibility by giving odd conclusions on stories is not other people's fault, it's theirs.

116 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:07:31pm

re: #114 erik_t

The fact-checkers are the mainstream media. Politifact is a wholly owned and operated subsidiary of the Tampa Bay Times; the WaPo fact checker is obviously part of the Washington Post.

So what? The content is vastly different and less spun by far than most MSM outlets, let alone the blogs. They serve a good purpose overall, reasonably well done. At least half their critics can be written off as sour grapes.

117 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:08:41pm

re: #115 Obdicut

First of all, they are the mainstream media,

We define that differently. Never seen sports and weather on factcheck.

118 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:09:09pm

re: #114 erik_t

The fact-checkers are the mainstream media. Politifact is a wholly owned and operated subsidiary of the Tampa Bay Times; the WaPo fact checker is obviously part of the Washington Post.

I was just about to post the same thing. And this is why I don't automatically give these "fact checkers" any more credence than any other source. They have an agenda too -- to promote the media companies they work for. And one way they help attract readers and viewers to their content is by maintaining an appearance of "balance," so that they don't lose audience share from either the left or the right.

It's a travesty that Politifact gave Harry Reid's statement their worst rating, but it's an excellent demonstration of my point. The need to appear balanced explains this kind of overreaction.

119 erik_t  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:09:12pm

re: #116 Daniel Ballard

So what? The content is vastly different and less spun by far than most MSM outlets, let alone the blogs. They serve a good purpose overall, reasonably well done. At least half their critics can be written off as sour grapes.

So your response #1 to egregious fuckups is to bring up unrelated times that fuckups didn't occur. Response #2 is to say 'well perfect is the enemy of good enough'. Response #3 is to say that everyone else is worse, and many who disagree are just haterz.

Did I get that right?

120 gwangung  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:09:14pm

re: #117 Daniel Ballard

We define that differently. Never seen sports and weather on factcheck.

That's fatuous.

You can do better than that.

121 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:12:57pm

re: #117 Daniel Ballard

We define that differently. Never seen sports and weather on factcheck.

Okay. That's a really weird definition of mainstream media. Most of the factchecking organizations are sub-organizations of newspapers. Is there some reason you think that makes them not mainstream media?

122 iossarian  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:13:23pm

re: #115 Obdicut

They really do seem to be trying to be 'balanced', which, in an unbalanced situation, biases them.

This is the key. It's all part of the desperate desire to appeal to people who get a weird kick out of not trusting either party more than the other.

123 Kragar  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:13:50pm

Romney Puts False Welfare Attack At Center Of Campaign

Mitt Romney loves the ’90s, apparently — he is making President Bill Clinton’s 1996 welfare reform bill the centerpiece of his campaign this week. But his accusations that President Obama is trying to “gut” the program by waiving its work requirements don’t jibe with the administration’s actual work guidelines. They also sidestep the fact that Romney himself supported such changes — he was just one of the Republicans who lent similar requests bipartisan support.

In a speech in Illinois Tuesday, Romney praised Clinton and Republicans for saying “they did not want a culture of dependency to grow in our country, but instead wanted people to have the blessings of work.” By contrast, he said, “President Obama, in just the last few days, has tried to reverse that accomplishment, by taking the work requirement out of welfare. That is wrong, if I’m president I’ll put work back in welfare.”

His speech came on the heels of a new campaign ad asserting that “Under Obama’s plan, you wouldn’t have to work and wouldn’t have to train for a job — they just send you your welfare check.”

White House press secretary Jay Carney called Romney’s charges “categorically false” and “blatantly dishonest” in his Tuesday briefing.

124 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:14:52pm

And after all the wailing and gnashing of teeth, what it comes down to is;

We'll believe a "fact checking source" if it agrees with our preconceived thoughts of the event, or if we have an open mind and it sheds new light on a subject
We'll trash the "fact checking source" if it disagree with our preconceived thoughts of the event, or if we have an closed mind even if it sheds new light on a subject
In others words, we'll act human

(I sure do hope Curiosity finds a species up there!!)

125 gwangung  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:15:49pm

re: #124 sattv4u2

That's a sloppy reading of the discussion. (Though not as sloppy as some folks' work).

126 erik_t  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:16:01pm

re: #124 sattv4u2

And after all the wailing and gnashing of teeth, what it comes down to is;

We'll believe a "fact checking source" if it agrees with our preconceived thoughts of the event, or if we have an open mind and it sheds new light on a subject
We'll trash the "fact checking source" if it disagree with our preconceived thoughts of the event, or if we have an closed mind even if it sheds new light on a subject
In others words, we'll act human

(I sure do hope Curiosity finds a species up there!!)

We'll be happy with a 'fact checking source' if it reports on facts. We'll be unhappy with a 'fact checking source' if it leaves the domain of checking facts.

I mean, there's a quiz at the end of the thread and everything. You really need to be reading more carefully.

127 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:17:23pm

Man sets fire to home by microwaving socks, undies

[Link: hosted.ap.org...]

Hell, who amongst us men hasn't!!

128 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:17:38pm

re: #124 sattv4u2

How about, we'll fact-check the fact-checking site, and sometimes they're incorrect?

How is that not an option?

129 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:18:00pm

re: #120 gwangung

Let me say it better. The purpose of the content matters. Which is what I was getting at. MSM covers all kinds of things from news about "Big Brother" to the real news, such as it is. And I think we see more of both sides from the fact checkers than we do on the MSM.

Bottom line AFAIK
We are better off with them and the errors they can make than we would be without them. I don't look at anything uncritically. Again, much of the heat from the critics is sour grapes. Not always, but often enough. I'm reminded of Jon Stewart and Politifact. Everyone came out ahead with that back and forth.

130 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:18:30pm

re: #128 Obdicut

How about, we'll fact-check the fact-checking site, and sometimes they're incorrect?

How is that not an option?

It is, but the same rule would apply to the fact checker checking the fact checking!

131 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:18:52pm

re: #121 Obdicut

Yes, the purpose. When I say MSM I mean the news programs. Very different focus and format.

132 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:19:06pm

re: #129 Daniel Ballard

Is there some reason that you think that the factcheckers, despite being owned by the mainstream media, are independent of it?

You do see that politifact, for example, says "Tampa Bay Times" right on the top of it?

133 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:19:22pm

re: #131 Daniel Ballard

Yes, the purpose. When I say MSM I mean the news programs. Very different focus and format.

So the Tampa Bay Times is not part of the Mainstream Media?

134 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:19:23pm

I thought the term was "Trust, but verify." And from there you learn pretty quickly where the agendas are more important than facts or attempting to find out the truth. And to generally avoid those that claim to already have The Truth.

135 erik_t  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:20:40pm

re: #133 Obdicut

So the Tampa Bay Times is not part of the Mainstream Media?

The Washington Post, the Washington fucking Post, inside the Beltway ferchrissakes, is apparently not part of the mainstream media.

136 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:21:00pm

After the right's behavior for the past four years, demonizing women and minorities and embracing conspiracy theories about Obama, and doing immeasurable harm to the country with purely obstructionist tactics designed to sabotage the elected President, there's no such thing as "balance" in American politics any more.

137 Achilles Tang  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:21:06pm

re: #127 sattv4u2

Man sets fire to home by microwaving socks, undies

[Link: hosted.ap.org...]

Hell, who amongst us men hasn't!!

One should do it without water. That way it zaps all the germs and leaves only sanitary dirt, which can be dusted off if too abrasive.

138 Interesting Times  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:22:05pm

re: #131 Daniel Ballard

Yes, the purpose. When I say MSM I mean the news programs. Very different focus and format.

Are you aware of this?

Media Consolidation: The Illusion of Choice

6 media giants control 90% of what we watch, read, or listen to. That's why it should no longer be called the MSM but the Corporate Media™ and viewed through that lens (i.e. they'll report the news in such a way to benefit their corporate owners, and it's merely a question of some being more egregious about it than others)

139 erik_t  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:22:08pm

re: #137 Achilles Tang

One should do it without water. That way it zaps all the germs and leaves only sanitary dirt, which can be dusted off if too abrasive.

A microwave oven works exactly by exciting several vibrational modes in the water molecule. If you microwave a bowl of dry wheat flour, you'll find it didn't heat up much.

140 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:22:38pm

One more note on the nuttiness of Wayne Allyn Root: one of his sons is named Remington Reagan Root.

The other person I know of named Remington was just acquitted of charges of gun smuggling charges.

141 Achilles Tang  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:23:01pm

re: #139 erik_t

A microwave oven works exactly by exciting several vibrational modes in the water molecule. If you microwave a bowl of dry wheat flour, you'll find it didn't heat up much.

Bacteria have water. P.S. I was being funny, or so I thought.

142 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:23:33pm

Rush Limbaugh really laid out the roadmap for Republican politics right after Obama was elected, when he said he wanted Obama to fail.

This is literally the only thing that matters to the right and to the GOP at this point.

143 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:23:42pm

Factcheck is probably the only independent factchecking organization out there. They still have fallen down on a large number of major stories, like the totally baffling 'lie of the year' that the Republicans want to end Medicare-- where despite acknowledging that the GOP wanted to change Medicare so that it wouldn't at all resemble it's current form, they called that the lie of the year.

That dealt a severe blow to their credibility, especially since they've never acknowledged that was a mistake.

144 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:24:04pm

re: #132 Obdicut

re: #133 Obdicut

I never claimed independence. I said focus and format as the diff. The purpose of the site as compared to the focus of the Tampa Bay site. One is general news, the other a specific function far more narrow.

145 makeitstop  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:25:22pm

So... Has Romney released those tax returns yet?

Didn't think so.

146 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:26:59pm

re: #144 Daniel Ballard

re: #133 Obdicut

I never claimed independence. I said focus and format as the diff. The purpose of the site as compared to the focus of the Tampa Bay site. One is general news, the other a specific function far more narrow.

But that specific purpose is still journalistic. How are they not part of the mainstream media, when they're owned and operated by the mainstream media?

147 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:26:59pm

re: #145 makeitstop

So... Has Romney released those tax returns yet?

Didn't think so.

But only because Obama has not released his college transcripts either.

Pthbththbt!

148 GunstarGreen  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:27:11pm

re: #124 sattv4u2

And after all the wailing and gnashing of teeth, what it comes down to is;

We'll believe a "fact checking source" if it agrees with our preconceived thoughts of the event, or if we have an open mind and it sheds new light on a subject
We'll trash the "fact checking source" if it disagree with our preconceived thoughts of the event, or if we have an closed mind even if it sheds new light on a subject
In others words, we'll act human

(I sure do hope Curiosity finds a species up there!!)

No, not really. The conclusion to draw is that people that are interested in the truth do not like places that try to portray themselves as truthful when they are not.

Harry Reid's accusation of tax dodging may or may not be true (it almost assuredly is not), but we won't know for certain until we actually see Romney's returns. Yet this gets rated with their lowest possible rating -- that is to say, they assert that it could not be any more of a lie than it is.

Romney's accusation of restricting the voting rights of military personnel is patently false. It is verifiably not true, under any context or interpretation. It does not hold up under even the most casual and inept scrutiny. They rate it as merely 'false'. This, by their scale, asserts that it is less of a lie than Ried's accusation.

The complaint here is in the glaringly obvious bias, which should not be in the purview of a source that purports to be a 'fact-checker'.

149 Kragar  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:27:40pm

re: #145 makeitstop

So... Has Romney released those tax returns yet?

Didn't think so.

I'm still waiting to get more hints about what he has in his magic chest.

150 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:28:50pm

re: #147 wrenchwench

But only because Obama has not released his college transcripts either.

Pthbththbt!

Thats because he's not running for president

Oh , wait ,, damn,, thats Reid and HIS taxes ,, shit!!

It gets all so jumbled!!!

HUGE //

151 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:29:15pm

re: #149 Kragar

I'm still waiting to get more hints about what he has in his magic chest.

silicone

152 erik_t  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:29:24pm

re: #148 GunstarGreen

Romney's accusation of restricting the voting rights of military personnel is patently false. It is verifiably not true, under any context or interpretation. It does not hold up under even the most casual and inept scrutiny. They rate it as merely 'false'. This, by their scale, asserts that it is less of a lie than Ried's accusation.

Not only that, Romney's lie is offensively, obviously and intentionally duplicitous. Reid might well actually have a source that says whatever, and actually believe them, even if the statement is ultimately shown to be false.

If one were to rate severity of lies, one would think this would be relevant.

153 S'latch  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:29:34pm

Romney should have released his tax returns. It is very disturbing that he hasn't. They are quite relevant to the current debate about taxes and privilege and loopholes and character. I have not heard any acceptable excuse for not releasing them. I actually would like to see both of the candidates' college transcripts, too. I suspect they would be a lot less interesting or relevant to the debate, but the more information the better I think.

154 Lidane  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:29:53pm

re: #142 Charles Johnson

This is literally the only thing that matters to the right and to the GOP at this point.

That and keeping the lunatics and wingnuts so pissed at Obama that they forget how much they hate Romney. The GOP needs the base to go vote and they've got a nominee that the base actively despises. They're desperate.

155 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:31:52pm

re: #149 Kragar

I'm still waiting to get more hints about what he has in his magic chest.

re: #151 sattv4u2

silicone

No,, wait ,,
Thats Dolly Parton

Nevahmind!

156 erik_t  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:32:01pm

re: #150 sattv4u2

All the relevance of a stale fart, but keep carrying that GOP water. Maybe they'll let a sip trickle down someday.

157 JeffM70  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:32:12pm

I e-mailed Politifact urging them to retract their "pants on fire" rating. I told them as a former news researcher (for CNN and Catholic News Service among others) their conclusion baffled me and was not warranted given they haven't seen Romney's tax returns. I don't expect them to listen to me or respond, but it at least allowed me to vent.

158 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:33:58pm

re: #156 erik_t

All the relevance of a stale fart, but keep carrying that GOP water. Maybe they'll let a sip trickle down someday.

{sigh}

What part of HUGE// escaped you??

but carry on

SATT POSTS ,, MUST DISAGREE ,,OUTRAGE,,, RWNJ!!!

159 gwangung  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:34:01pm

re: #129 Daniel Ballard

Let me say it better. The purpose of the content matters. Which is what I was getting at. MSM covers all kinds of things from news about "Big Brother" to the real news, such as it is. And I think we see more of both sides from the fact checkers than we do on the MSM.

Bottom line AFAIK
We are better off with them and the errors they can make than we would be without them. I don't look at anything uncritically. Again, much of the heat from the critics is sour grapes. Not always, but often enough. I'm reminded of Jon Stewart and Politifact. Everyone came out ahead with that back and forth.

I think this is still a silly argument, though better told (and less insulting to the intelligence).

Fact checkers are employed and are a part of the mass media, same as the editorial department, same as the city desk, same as sports, etc.

We are only better off with them when they do their job competently. When they don't, they deserve the heat they get.

160 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:35:08pm

Could be worse, I guess

I could be on a pedestal!!

161 erik_t  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:35:09pm

re: #158 sattv4u2

{sigh}

What part of HUGE// escaped you??

but carry on

SATT POSTS ,, MUST DISAGREE ,,OUTRAGE,,, RWNJ!!!

In all honesty, your punctuation is so confusing that I missed it.

Undung, for whatever that matters.

162 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:35:50pm

re: #160 sattv4u2

Could be worse, I guess

I could be on a pedestal!!

It's soo lonely!

163 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:36:13pm

re: #161 erik_t

In all honesty, your punctuation is so confusing that I missed it.

Undung, for whatever that matters.

No,, please

Ding (down) away!

164 gwangung  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:36:28pm

re: #144 Daniel Ballard

re: #133 Obdicut

I never claimed independence. I said focus and format as the diff. The purpose of the site as compared to the focus of the Tampa Bay site. One is general news, the other a specific function far more narrow.

Fatuous. Follow the money.

The sports page has a very narrow focus. So does the city desk.

Do you even know how a newspaper is organized?

165 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:36:49pm

re: #162 Killgore Trout

It's soo lonely!

Well, every time I try to join you up there out pops a sword from your pantaloons warding me off!!

166 Sionainn  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:38:32pm

re: #147 wrenchwench

But only because Obama has not released his college transcripts either.

Pthbththbt!

Wouldn't it be funny to have Romney demand Obama's transcripts and declare that as soon as Obama did that, he would release his tax returns, and then, BAM, Obama releases his transcripts? I wouldn't put it past Obama to have been saving them for something special like this...he seems to think very far ahead.

167 iossarian  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:38:41pm

re: #158 sattv4u2

{sigh}

What part of HUGE// escaped you??

but carry on

SATT POSTS ,, MUST DISAGREE ,,OUTRAGE,,, RWNJ!!!

Look, I don't think you understand what "sarcasm" is, if you're trying to defend your post above by claiming it's sarcastic.

Your original post #150 could be interpreted as being sarcastic, possibly, if it were understood that you agreed that calling for Obama's college transcripts or Reid's tax releases is just a smokescreen to try to deflect attention away from Romney's tax shenanigans.

If you do agree on that, then fair enough. But I kind of think that you don't and that your post isn't really sarcastic, since you have a pretty good track record of A) supporting Republicans and B) using "sarc tags" to try to avoid taking responsibility for espousing the nuttier ideas that are involved in executing A).

168 Mattand  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:41:34pm

re: #167 iossarian

I'm still waiting for anyone to explain why Romney's tax returns aren't an issue, since most people running for POTUS (including Romney's dad) had no problem releasing theirs.

169 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:41:42pm

re: #167 iossarian

if it were understood that you agreed that calling for Obama's college transcripts or Reid's tax releases is just a smokescreen to try to deflect attention away from Romney's tax shenanigans.


[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Smokescreens come from various sides

170 Mattand  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:43:55pm

re: #169 sattv4u2

Lets REALLY compromise

Lets talk about the economy, health care, terrorism both globally and at home, health care and forget all about birth certificates, college days and tax returns from a decade ago

And tax returns aren't important because....?

171 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:46:41pm

re: #170 Mattand

And tax returns aren't important because....?

FROM A DECADE AGO

or did you selectively decide to ignore that part!?!?

172 iossarian  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:46:53pm

re: #169 sattv4u2


if it were understood that you agreed that calling for Obama's college transcripts or Reid's tax releases is just a smokescreen to try to deflect attention away from Romney's tax shenanigans.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Smokescreens come from various sides

Oh yes, please let's talk about policies, since Romney is desperate to avoid that.

Tax policy, and how Romney's tax plan will raise taxes on the middle class to pay for a tax cut for the rich while doing nothing about the deficit.

Foreign policy, where Romney has no specific details on how he would do anything different to Obama (other than be rude to foreign nations).

Healthcare. Romney's vision for healthcare? Has it changed since he was the governor of Massachusetts?

Education policy - does Romney support the constitutional separation of church and state when it comes to education?

etc. etc.

173 engineer cat  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:47:47pm

re: #170 Mattand

Lets REALLY compromise

Lets talk about the economy, health care, terrorism both globally and at home, health care and forget all about birth certificates, college days and tax returns from a decade ago

And tax returns aren't important because....?

the thing is this: let's talk about economic recovery. ok, then the first thing mitt suggests is lowering taxes. for "job creators". that is, people like him. with money

and would mitt turn out to personally benefit, by some coincidence, by the tax cuts he suggests as necessary for economic recovery?

so, in sum, there is no way of knowing how self serving mitt's "plan" for economic recovery is unless we see his tax returns

174 engineer cat  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:48:35pm

re: #171 sattv4u2

FROM A DECADE AGO

or did you selectively decide to ignore that part!?!?

i like to see em all the way back to his 20s...

175 jaunte  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:49:43pm

re: #172 iossarian

Tax policy, and how Romney's tax plan will raise taxes on the middle class to pay for a tax cut for the rich while doing nothing about the deficit.

Foreign policy, where Romney has no specific details on how he would do anything different to Obama (other than be rude to foreign nations).

Healthcare. Romney's vision for healthcare? Has it changed since he was the governor of Massachusetts?

Education policy - does Romney support the constitutional separation of church and state when it comes to education?

All these details are complicated and unforeseen for a guy whose main qualification is "it's my turn."

176 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:49:44pm

re: #171 sattv4u2

FROM A DECADE AGO

or did you selectively decide to ignore that part!?!?

He's running on his business acumen from a decade ago. Doesn't that make them relevant?

177 engineer cat  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:49:49pm

shorter circular debate path:

if mitt doesn't want people to ask for his tax returns, he should stop touting tax breaks for rich people as the first thing to do to fix the economy

178 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:50:39pm

re: #167 iossarian

you have a pretty good track record of A) supporting Republicans

Really?

hmm,, last person I voted for (last week) was Steve Oppenheimer as our counties public service commissioner

Steve is a life long democrat. Nice man

179 Mattand  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:51:09pm

re: #171 sattv4u2

FROM A DECADE AGO

or did you selectively decide to ignore that part!?!?

No, I didn't. Obama's released a decade's worth. Then again, he has nothing to hide.

Man, you get testy when asked to explain yourself.

180 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:51:13pm

re: #172 iossarian

So you agree with me?

181 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:52:50pm

re: #179 Mattand

No, I didn't. Obama's released a decade's worth. Then again, he has nothing to hide.

Man, you get testy when asked to explain yourself.

Not really

I DO get "testy" when people decide to place their own spin on what I said

You stated "And tax returns aren't important because"

I never said they weren't. So you want me to defend something I never stated!!

Senator Reid ,, is that you?

182 JeffM70  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:54:06pm

re: #171 sattv4u2

Obama has released his tax returns dating back to 2000.

183 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:54:55pm

re: #182 JeffM70

Obama has released his tax returns dating back to 2000.

Good for him
Totally irrelevant to the issues facing us in 2012, but good for him

184 iossarian  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:55:21pm

re: #180 sattv4u2

So you agree with me?

Romney isn't interested in this being a policy-driven election, because his policies are straightforwardly unattractive to the middle class once they're spelled out in detail. Most specifically he is definitely proposing a substantial tax increase on the middle class to pay for a tax cut for the wealthy.

He just wants it to be a referendum on Obama. Fair enough from a political point of view, but it does mean that his supporters shouldn't complain if the election isn't about policy.

185 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:56:36pm

re: #184 iossarian

Nice answer, but not to the question I asked

186 makeitstop  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:56:39pm

re: #183 sattv4u2

Good for him
Totally irrelevant to the issues facing us in 2012, but good for him

Except for that one issue - Mitt Romney hasn't released anything but 'estimates.'

Let's settle that one and then we can demolish his other bogus campaign promises.

187 iossarian  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:57:43pm

re: #185 sattv4u2

Nice answer, but not to the question I asked

I agree with you that it would be great if the election were focused on policy, because then Romney would have even less chance of winning than he has now, and indeed the Republicans would probably take a kicking up and down the ballot.

Was there a different question that I missed?

188 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:57:53pm

re: #164 gwangung

Fatuous. Follow the money.

The sports page has a very narrow focus. So does the city desk.

Do you even know how a newspaper is organized?

Enough of your cheap insults. You should stick to what you said yesterday to me.

189 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:58:46pm

re: #187 iossarian


I agree with you that it would be great if the election were focused on policy
Was there a different question that I missed

Nope

That was the question

190 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:58:55pm

re: #188 Daniel Ballard

Seriously, man, I'm really wondering how you think that Politifact, owned and operated by the Tampa Bay Times, branded by the Tampa Bay Times, is not the Mainstream Media.

191 Mattand  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 12:59:12pm

re: #181 sattv4u2

Not really

I DO get "testy" when people decide to place their own spin on what I said

You stated "And tax returns aren't important because"

I never said they weren't. So you want me to defend something I never stated!!

Senator Reid ,, is that you?

I'm not really sure why a decade is your magic number here. Tax inequality is an important issue right now, and if Romney gets in he will exacerbate this further.

I'm have a hard time believing a millionaire candidate has the country's financial interests at heart if he's been paying a smaller percentage than me for years.

192 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:00:59pm

re: #186 makeitstop

Except for that one issue
How is Obamas 2000 tax returns relevant

His personal situation economically has drastically changed since then

I care not one wit what his deductions were then, what outside income he made, how much his wife made

Same with Romney FROM A DECADE AGO!

193 JeffM70  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:02:22pm

re: #186 makeitstop


A more interesting question is how Mitt's IRA got to have between $20 to $100 million in it.

194 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:02:29pm

re: #190 Obdicut

I'm not pretending focus, format and purpose make a difference without a worthwhile distinction. Plus I told you we define that MSM term differently meaning the news shows. Besides there are a number of fact check sites. It's not just about one or another. I do not see where that leaves any question in your mind about how I look at this.

195 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:03:37pm

re: #150 sattv4u2

Thats because he's not running for president

Oh , wait ,, damn,, thats Reid and HIS taxes ,, shit!!

It gets all so jumbled!!!

HUGE //

It is confusing because the right keeps wanting to equate the transcripts with the tax returns. Let's do the number crunching here.

How many presidential candidates in the last 40 years have released their tax information?

How many presidential candidates in the last 40 years have released their college transcripts?

196 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:03:58pm

re: #191 Mattand

I'm not really sure why a decade is your magic number here

Not mine, but Romneys opponents seem to think it is
Tax inequality is an important issue right now

Has been for decades,, SO ,, change the tax code(s) to a simpler method

he's been paying a smaller percentage than me for years.

Again work to change the code. If he derives income only like Buffett, they pay the same rate

197 iossarian  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:04:49pm

re: #189 sattv4u2



I agree with you that it would be great if the election were focused on policy
Was there a different question that I missed

Nope

That was the question

Great. So let's get the Republicans to actually talk about policy instead of scary brown people for 5 minutes. While we're at it, we could ask them why they want to cut taxes for very rich people while raising them on everyone else, and whether this has anything to do with the fact that they take large donations from corrupt gambling magnates and super-wealthy global warming deniers.

We could ask them about their carbon emission control policy ideas in light of the fact that scientists increasingly agree that unchecked emissions will be catastrophic for human life on earth.

We could ask them why they want to teach creationism in schools, and whether this will help American students compete globally in a knowledge economy.

We could ask them what they plan to do to reduce the inefficiency of America's healthcare system - the only system in the developed world that relies on a top-heavy bureaucracy to run it.

We could ask them so many questions! Funnily enough I think they're quite happy pointing fingers at scary people with foreign-sounding names and whistling for their racist supporters to come out and vote for the white guy.

198 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:05:28pm

re: #194 Daniel Ballard

I'm not pretending focus, format and purpose make a difference without a worthwhile distinction.

Sure, they make a distinction. Politifact is a fact-checking website run by the Tampa Bay Times. I'm asking you how that makes it not part of the Main STream Media. Can you explain your reasoning? You're simply asserting that because it's a factchecking subsidiary of the mainstream media, that makes it not part of the mainstream media. I can't follow your reasoning. How can it be completely controlled by the mainstream media and yet not part of it?

Besides there are a number of fact check sites

And the only one not operated by a mainstream media organization is Factcheck.

199 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:05:29pm

Does this graphic appear to be one sided?

Image: Compare-1.jpg

200 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:06:47pm

re: #199 Daniel Ballard

The argument isn't being made that they're one-sided, so I'm not sure why you're asking that.

201 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:12:25pm

re: #198 Obdicut

I explained as best I can. Sorry you still don't understand my use of the distinction I tried to illustrate. My point is this-If I need to review the days news, weather and maybe a sport, I need the news show. No serious fact checking happening there.

When I want to see about some fact checking I need Factcheck or politifact or a similar venue. No Olympics medal count there.

I am putting function above ownership for the purpose of the discussion and looking at the venues separately.

202 Mattand  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:12:43pm

re: #196 sattv4u2

I'm not really sure why a decade is your magic number here

Not mine, but Romneys opponents seem to think it is
Tax inequality is an important issue right now

Has been for decades,, SO ,, change the tax code(s) to a simpler method

he's been paying a smaller percentage than me for years.

Again work to change the code. If he derives income only like Buffett, they pay the same rate

His father released over 10 years worth of returns. Mitt is barely releasing two. You really, honestly, don't think there's something odd about this?

203 iossarian  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:14:07pm

re: #199 Daniel Ballard

Does this graphic appear to be one sided?

Image: Compare-1.jpg

That graphic tells you nothing unless you are already of the opinion that both sides lie with roughly equal frequency.

Like I said earlier, the "fact-checking" sites mostly seem to be trying to appeal to those people who are invested in that opinion.

I happen to think that the facts support the opinion that Republicans lie with far greater frequency than Democrats. Witness birtherism. Witness climate change denial. Witness WMDs in Iraq. Witness "death panels". Witness Michelle Bachmann. Witness Alan West.

To me, therefore, that chart simply tells me that the "fact-checkers" are divorced from reality, with the goal of chasing a self-satisfied "middle ground" of people who can't accept that the GOP has gone off the rails.

204 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:15:49pm

re: #201 Daniel Ballard

I explained as best I can. Sorry you still don't understand my use of the distinction I tried to illustrate. My point is this-If I need to review the days news, weather and maybe a sport, I need the news show. No serious fact checking happening there.

When I want to see about some fact checking I need Factcheck or politifact or a similar venue. No Olympics medal count there.

I am putting function above ownership for the purpose of the discussion and looking at the venues separately.

So you simply think that no fact-checking site can possibly ever be part of the mainstream media, because by your definition a fact-checking site isn't part of the mainstream media?

Isn't that completely circular logic?

205 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:17:01pm

re: #197 iossarian

Great. So let's get the Republicans to actually talk about policy instead of scary brown people for 5 minutes

And lets get the dems to actually talk about policy instead of scary corporate planes for 5 minutes!

206 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:17:41pm

re: #203 iossarian

The chart was Obama and Romney. So it does not show the overall. But if you look at the site what you said is well supported. And the chart shows Romney lying a lot more telling the truth a lot less than Obama. So I'm at a loss on your conclusion.

207 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:18:37pm

re: #202 Mattand

His father released over 10 years worth of returns. Mitt is barely releasing two. You really, honestly, don't think there's something odd about this?

So what is the magic acceptable number?

3? nahh,,, not enough

10?, well, Dad and Obama did it, but if 10, then why not 12,,, 15,, 20!!

208 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:20:28pm

re: #204 Obdicut
You are broadening the meaning of what I said to undermine it. I never said can not possibly be. I mentioned focus and format.
By my "function" definition they are separate. You are so attached to ownership on this. I am not. GE own all kinds of things. They are still all separate in function.

If we look at MSM definition at Wiki, the focus of the definition is news sources, not checking the facts.

Mainstream media
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Mainstream media (sometimes referred to by the acronym MSM[citation needed]) are those media disseminated via the largest distribution channels, which therefore represent what the majority of media consumers are likely to encounter. The term also denotes those media generally reflective of the prevailing currents of thought, influence, or activity.[1]

Large news conglomerates, including newspapers and broadcast media, which underwent successive mergers in the U.S. and elsewhere at an increasing rate beginning in the 1990s, are often referenced by the term. This concentration of media ownership has raised concerns of a homogenization of viewpoints presented to news consumers. Consequently, the term mainstream media has been widely used in conversation and the blogosphere, often in oppositional, pejorative, or dismissive senses, in discussion of the mass media and media bias.

Media organizations such as CBS and the New York Times set the tone for other smaller news organizations by creating conversations which cascade down to the smaller news organizations lacking the resources to do more individual research and coverage, that primary method being through the Associated Press where many news organizations get their news. This results in a recycling effect wherein organic thought is left to the mainstream that choose the conversation and smaller organizations recite absent of a variance in perspective.[2]

209 makeitstop  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:21:25pm

re: #192 sattv4u2

Except for that one issue
How is Obamas 2000 tax returns relevant

Obama released his tax returns. 12 years' worth.

Candidates all the way back to 1964 have done so.

Romney hasn't.

He wants to be in the Big Boy President's Club, but he doesn't want to lower himself to actually be straight with the people he wants to vote for him.

210 engineer cat  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:21:52pm

Has been for decades,, SO ,, change the tax code(s) to a simpler method

please see republican rhetoric about emotionally fragile "job creators"

211 makeitstop  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:22:09pm

re: #193 JeffM70

A more interesting question is how Mitt's IRA got to have between $20 to $100 million in it.

I asked that one yesterday.

Short answer from many here: 'STFU, that's how.'

212 funky chicken  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:23:14pm

re: #123 Kragar

In a speech in Illinois Tuesday, Romney praised Clinton and Republicans for saying “they did not want a culture of dependency to grow in our country, but instead wanted people to have the blessings of work.

Hey, the Chinese and Vietnamese are appropriately grateful to be blessed with a buck an hour. Lazy welfare queens need to do the same here!

//

213 Gus  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:25:31pm

Romney sucks: entirely true.

214 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:26:47pm

re: #208 Daniel Ballard

Okay, by Wiki's definition, the factchecking sites other than Factcheck are, in fact, part of the mainstream media.

215 makeitstop  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:30:49pm

re: #208 Daniel Ballard

By my "function" definition they are separate. You are so attached to ownership on this. I am not. GE own all kinds of things. They are still all separate in function.

And 'Meet The Press' (on NBC) has been sponsored for years by GE.

Who owns NBC?

Maybe they're not as separate as you'd like to think they are.

216 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:32:15pm

re: #209 makeitstop

Obama released his tax returns. 12 years' worth.

Candidates all the way back to 1964 have done so.

Romney hasn't.

He wants to be in the Big Boy President's Club, but he doesn't want to lower himself to actually be straight with the people he wants to vote for him.

Here

I'll make it easy for you

Romneys last 20 years of tax returns will tell you

HE'S RICH

217 Mattand  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:32:27pm

re: #207 sattv4u2

So what is the magic acceptable number?

3? nahh,,, not enough

10?, well, Dad and Obama did it, but if 10, then why not 12,,, 15,, 20!!

I'm going to quote makeitstop from #209, because he/she is putting it more eloquently than me:

Obama released his tax returns. 12 years' worth.

Candidates all the way back to 1964 have done so.

Romney hasn't.

He wants to be in the Big Boy President's Club, but he doesn't want to lower himself to actually be straight with the people he wants to vote for him.

This is it's why important.

218 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:33:03pm

re: #217 Mattand

SEE 216

219 Mattand  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:34:05pm

re: #218 sattv4u2

SEE 216

Now you're just being stupid. The upshot is at least you're doing it without multiple commas.

220 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:35:29pm

re: #219 Mattand

Now you're just being stupid. The upshot is at least you're doing it without multiple commas.

,,,,ooopppsss,,,,

221 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:37:25pm

re: #193 JeffM70

re: #211 makeitstop

I asked that one yesterday.

Short answer from many here: 'STFU, that's how.'

IRA's aren't static
Once money is inside an IRA, the IRA owner can direct the custodian to use the cash to purchase most types of securities, and some non security financial instruments. While certain types of investments are prohibited in an IRA, real estate is not one of them. As a result, real estate owned by an IRA can generate rental income and gain on a sale which escapes immediate taxation

222 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:37:51pm

re: #216 sattv4u2

Here

I'll make it easy for you

Romneys last 20 years of tax returns will tell you

HE'S RICH

But so is a mob boss. The question is how did he get that much richer so quickly if these stifling taxes are draining his and other rich peoples essential fluids and money.

223 thecommodore  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:38:05pm

This is yet another air raid siren that is little more intellectually than that deeply stupid and racist video Charles posted a few days ago, openly claiming that Obama and Eric Holder have an agenda against white people.

What the right wing has been telling us since Barack "Hussein" Obama came on the scene, is that he is both a dumb n*gger (see complaints about college transcripts, and suggestions he got into college and/or law school only because of affirmative action, and the old standby about being the "TelePrompter in Chief") and a diabolical tyrant (see birthers, the "civilian national security force" and "Obama's private 6,000 man army in the health care bill" [that was Andrew Napolitano's brainchild], the stupider than stupid charge that the New Black Panthers were let off because they are black, among many other flights of idiocy) who will take away from white people what they've rightfully earned and give it to other n*ggers. Funny how someone can be both dumb and incompetent while also being diaboloical, but these same people believe he is both a Marxist and a Fascist, so there you go...

I'll say again that an unemployment rate of 8.3% is all the conservative movement and GOP has going for it right now, because it is the only meaningful liability against Obama right now, and it's still that high because the GOP has blocked every attempt the president has made to improve the economy - even doing things they agree with like giving small businesses a buttload of tax breaks and offering to give more. If unemployment were 1/2 of 1% lower right now, the GOP would be completely irrelevant, because fear and loathing is all they can offer now.

It really is. And it would be comical if it weren't so dangerous.

224 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:39:12pm

re: #214 Obdicut

And I use factcheck more often. Who BTW is exactly where I pulled the links from above. Like this one.
[Link: factcheck.org...]

And despite MSM ownership we are all better off with them than without them.

225 Mattand  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:40:24pm

re: #223 thecommodore

This is yet another air raid siren that is little more intellectually than that deeply stupid and racist video Charles posted a few days ago, openly claiming that Obama and Eric Holder have an agenda against white people.

What the right wing has been telling us since Barack "Hussein" Obama came on the scene, is that he is both a dumb n*gger (see complaints about college transcripts, and suggestions he got into college and/or law school only because of affirmative action, and the old standby about being the "TelePrompter in Chief") and a diabolical tyrant (see birthers, the "civilian national security force" and "Obama's private 6,000 man army in the health care bill" [that was Andrew Napolitano's brainchild], the stupider than stupid charge that the New Black Panthers were let off because they are black, among many other flights of idiocy) who will take away from white people what they've rightfully earned and give it to other n*ggers. Funny how someone can be both dumb and incompetent while also being diaboloical, but these same people believe he is both a Marxist and a Fascist, so there you go...

I'll say again that an unemployment rate of 8.3% is all the conservative movement and GOP has going for it right now, because it is the only meaningful liability against Obama right now, and it's still that high because the GOP has blocked every attempt the president has made to improve the economy - even doing things they agree with like giving small businesses a buttload of tax breaks and offering to give more. If unemployment were 1/2 of 1% lower right now, the GOP would be completely irrelevant, because fear and loathing is all they can offer now.

It really is. And it would be comical if it weren't so dangerous.

Man. That rocked. Seriously. That's the best take I've seen about conservatives in a while.

226 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:40:54pm

re: #216 sattv4u2

Here

I'll make it easy for you

Romneys last 20 years of tax returns will tell you

HE'S RICH

He is rich and took full advantage of the law to make & keep more money. A full blown 1%er. now that we all knew that, and know that, and will still know that in November, what is all this fuss really about? MSM scorekeeping.

227 makeitstop  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:42:37pm

re: #216 sattv4u2

Here

I'll make it easy for you

Romneys last 20 years of tax returns will tell you

HE'S RICH

Whatever, Satt. You're just being obtuse here. Carry on.

228 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:42:55pm

re: #224 Daniel Ballard


And I use factcheck more often.

Not me

After this thread, i'm sticking with Miss Cleo

and this

Image: 8ball.jpg

229 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:43:39pm

re: #227 makeitstop

Whatever, Satt. You're just being obtuse here. Carry on.

Not really

Tell me, what gems do you think his returns will show, other than, well, HE'S RICH!

230 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:43:53pm

re: #224 Daniel Ballard

We'd be even better off if they did a much better job than they do. Factcheck, especially, as I said above is really lacking in credibility due to their egregious abuse of 'lie of the year'.

231 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:44:10pm

re: #226 Daniel Ballard

He is rich and took full advantage of the law to make & keep more money. A full blown 1%er. now that we all knew that, and know that, and will still know that in November, what is all this fuss really about? MSM scorekeeping.

Yuh,, but ,,, HE'S RICH!

232 iossarian  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:44:26pm

re: #226 Daniel Ballard

He is rich and took full advantage of the law to make & keep more money. A full blown 1%er. now that we all knew that, and know that, and will still know that in November, what is all this fuss really about? MSM scorekeeping.

Except we don't know whether he "took full advantage of the law" as you put it, or whether he in fact committed fraud by deliberately undervaluing investments in his retirement accounts, among other things.

If it's not that big a deal, why not just release the tax forms.

Seriously, the whole "nothing to see here, move along" argument is so hollow I can't believe anyone would actually make it. And then the classic Palin-esque "MSM" fallback. "Ooooh, stop being so mean, librul media!"

233 iossarian  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:45:09pm

re: #229 sattv4u2

Not really

Tell me, what gems do you think his returns will show, other than, well, HE'S RICH!

That he deliberately undervalued his tax-shielded retirement contributions, and thus committed fraud.

234 iossarian  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:47:04pm

I've been investing the max in my retirement account for a few years now. And yet my accumulated balance is not worth 1/100 of Romney's.

Isn't it a bit of a coincidence that his retirement account did so well, when he was so rich to begin with?

235 JeffM70  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:47:47pm

re: #221 sattv4u2

I understand that. But in 2011-2012 the max contribution for a traditional IRA is $5000, $6000 if you're older than 50. That amounts to $150,000 over 30 years. Turning that into $20 million is quite a feat, wouldn't you say?

236 thecommodore  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:48:00pm

re: #225 Mattand

Man. That rocked. Seriously. That's the best take I've seen about conservatives in a while.

Thanks. I feel really smart now. :P

237 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:48:00pm

re: #233 iossarian

It's really hard to prove. What would be provable is that the stock was entered at one price and sold for a very different price. I doubt there's any actual fraud involved. I do think there will be highly complex tax-shelter maneuvers-- we can see that already-- as well as years where large capital losses wipe out his tax burden.

I also think we'd see evidence of investments that he doesn't want people to know about.

238 makeitstop  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:48:50pm

re: #229 sattv4u2

Not really

Tell me, what gems do you think his returns will show, other than, well, HE'S RICH!

How much, or how little, he paid in taxes over the past 12 years.

And since I answered yours, you get to answer this:

Why do you think he's refusing to follow a precedent for presidential candidates that has been in place for nearly 50 years?

239 wrenchwench  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:49:05pm

re: #229 sattv4u2

Not really

Tell me, what gems do you think his returns will show, other than, well, HE'S RICH!

I think they'll show he paid more income tax to foreign countries than he did to the US for a few years.

240 thecommodore  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:50:12pm

By the way, Root was on Hannity this hour.

Not that I listen to Hannity, but my radio was tuned to the station he's on in LA (where I live), so it came on when I turned it on.

Really.

I mean really. I'm not lying. I don't listen to Hannity...

Okay, I'm busted. Lock me up and throw away the key. I had a feeling Hannity would be softballing this kook, and I was looking for a cheap laugh.

241 iossarian  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:51:20pm

re: #237 Obdicut

I mostly agree with you, but I do think that this:

What would be provable is that the stock was entered at one price and sold for a very different price.

could be evidence of fraud. At the very least it would show that Bain/Romney were basically manipulating stock prices in order to extract value that other shareholders/investors did not get to realize.

242 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:53:25pm

re: #230 Obdicut

Well when the Dems made that commercial that clearly showed the elderly who would not be effected by the change as if it was going to affect them... Well Lie of the year or whopper is subjective language after all.

Scaring seniors that would not be effected crossed a big red dirty line. I for one am not at all sorry about the characterization.

I did note that several fact checking orgs agreed with me on this point. The voucher characterized as not having medicare as we know it (or at all as some implied) is far more debatable.

243 iossarian  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 1:55:06pm

re: #242 Daniel Ballard

Well when the Dems made that commercial that clearly showed the elderly who would not be effected by the change as if it was going to affect them...

I'm going to be a senior one day and it sure as fucking shit affects me.

244 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 2:24:16pm

re: #242 Daniel Ballard

Well when the Dems made that commercial that clearly showed the elderly who would not be effected by the change as if it was going to affect them.

But that wasn't why they called it the lie of the year.

Scaring seniors that would not be effected crossed a big red dirty line. I for one am not at all sorry about the characterization.

But that wasn't why they characterized it as a lie. They did so because the GOP was going to retain the name of Medicare, rather than the service that is Medicare.

I did note that several fact checking orgs agreed with me on this point. The voucher characterized as not having medicare as we know it (or at all as some implied) is far more debatable.

I don't consider that debatable. If you fundamentally change everything about a program, calling it by the same name is dishonest. That was the main point of the Democrats ad. Apparently the factcheckers, and you, declared that the lie of the year was an implication in the ad that present seniors would be affected. Why is that 'lie of the year' status for you, given how many other lies were told during that year that were far more egregious and flat-out stated, rather than implied? And you could perfectly well argue that the Democrats were using seniors as an example of type, rather than saying those individual seniors would be affected.

245 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 2:58:20pm

re: #243 iossarian

& Obdicut-

So there was no need to exaggerate then was there? I'm 52. Inadequate funding for my care is a severe risk under the existing system. I can tell by the limits that affect my father. It's not about vouchers vs billing vs some other scheme. It's about adequate funding vs inadequate funding despite what we paid in. If vouchers take care of me well, fine. if not then it sucks to be older and not have adequate medical.

If it's not vouchers, a system like what we have today and I'm well taken care of fine. If the money comes up short I'm just as screwed.

246 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 3:02:20pm

re: #245 Daniel Ballard

Yeah, it was an exaggeration.

Why do you consider an exaggeration to be the lie of the year?

247 palomino  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 3:09:01pm

re: #79 Killgore Trout

Thermite Paint!

You might want to sniff less of it.

248 palomino  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 3:10:45pm

re: #205 sattv4u2

Great. So let's get the Republicans to actually talk about policy instead of scary brown people for 5 minutes

And lets get the dems to actually talk about policy instead of scary corporate planes for 5 minutes!

Really? Racism from one party is akin to taxing corporate jets from the other party? Your moral compass is deeply skewed. And your magical balance fairy has lost her wings.

249 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 3:56:03pm

re: #232 iossarian

Except we don't know whether he "took full advantage of the law" as you put it, or whether he in fact committed fraud by deliberately undervaluing investments in his retirement accounts, among other things.

If it's not that big a deal, why not just release the tax forms.

Seriously, the whole "nothing to see here, move along" argument is so hollow I can't believe anyone would actually make it. And then the classic Palin-esque "MSM" fallback. "Ooooh, stop being so mean, librul media!"

I don't make the "nothing here" argument, never did in this topic. I assume he took full legal advantage, I'm not assuming any illegality absent evidence or an audit result. Already not voting for him so....

250 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 3:57:33pm

re: #246 Obdicut

It's their term, not mine. What lie would be the biggest is subjective. "Lie of the year" from one source, "whopper" from another. the point is the same. It was a damn lie to scare the elderly. I get mad at Fox for doing that, and I reserve the right to feel the same way when it's the other side.

251 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 4:21:16pm

re: #250 Daniel Ballard

You said that you agreed with the characterization, though. And I don't really see how any reasonable person can think that that exaggeration was the lie of the year.

When Politifact exaggerates to say that something is the lie of the year because it was an exaggeration, we get into some silly territory.

252 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 4:46:06pm

re: #251 Obdicut

Lie of the year, whopper, so many pinocchios... All just particular writers ways of describing the lie. And the Dems lied like hell about that Medicare plan in commercials that helped them get a close win in a contested office. the lies won the day for them. Congratulations to them. So now we know both sides lied and got caught.

One way we know that is the work the fact checkers did for us.

Videos like this one from the Agenda Project used elderly actors to falsely suggest Paul Ryan's prop
from the controversial page itself-
But more often, Democrats and liberals overreached:

• They ignored the fact that the Ryan plan would not affect people currently in Medicare -- or even the people 55 to 65 who would join the program in the next 10 years.

• They used harsh terms such as "end" and "kill" when the program would still exist, although in a privatized system.

• They used pictures and video of elderly people who clearly were too old to be affected by the Ryan plan. The DCCC video that aired four days after the vote featured an elderly man who had to take a job as a stripper to pay his medical bills.

253 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 4:53:04pm

re: #252 Daniel Ballard

And the Dems lied like hell about that Medicare plan in commercials that helped them get a close win in a contested office.

But they didn't lie like hell. They exaggerated. The GOP plan really would devastate medicare.

• They used harsh terms such as "end" and "kill" when the program would still exist, although in a privatized system.

Nope. The essence of Medicare is that it's a public program. Changing it to a privatized one means its an entirely different program. Calling it the same name is actually the lie, at that point.

• They used pictures and video of elderly people who clearly were too old to be affected by the Ryan plan. The DCCC video that aired four days after the vote featured an elderly man who had to take a job as a stripper to pay his medical bills.

And that might represent a person of that age in the future.

254 TheSwedish  Tue, Aug 7, 2012 9:35:54pm

I've heard wingnuts like Roger L. Simon, one I like to pick on, suggest we were all very quick to know George W. Bush's grades. Note the misdirection here: we never saw his grades, class - for - class, but we DID know, from classmates &c., what KIND of student he was. See the difference?

Good on the ex Republican operative - and current Conservative webmaster - David Frum for stepping up and talking what kind of student Obama was at Harvard Law. Frum graduated HLS a year before POTUS came in, and he knows people who knew the President from that time. Brad Berenson, an ex Bush Admin. lawyer who worked with POTUS on the law review at HLS, has done the same.

So, POTUS has prominent defenders from his college days. They just get drowned out by crazy loudmouths.

255 Artist  Wed, Aug 8, 2012 2:06:59am

re: #160 sattv4u2

re: #162 Killgore Trout

You know what, I've had just about enough of this. Cut the passive aggressive bullshit. Seriously. I don't fucking need any of this idiotic shit.

And while we're at it, fuck off with the contrarianism shit. It's fucking stupid.

256 CarolJ  Wed, Aug 8, 2012 7:05:57am

re: #8 Learned Mother of Zion

I dated an exchange student years ago. All their expenses were paid by their government so that they could concentrate on their studies. They went to classes year round and had to return to their host country afterwards to serve. No way Obama would have been able to make the residency requirement or have worked at that investment company or become a community organizer. He would have lacked the proper papers to stay.

257 mlwjones  Wed, Aug 8, 2012 9:35:10pm

These claims are ridiculous at their face, for reasons obvious to anyone who's ever been at or has taught university-level education. Doing both now simultaneously, so a few comments.

The only thing that can be shown by a registrar's records is point b) - whether grades are reasonable enough for admission to Harvard Law. Given Obama's intellect, I'm kind of thinking his grades were OK. Hell, you'd have to bet Rhodes Scholar Bill Clinton would have made snide remarks in 2008 about Obama's intellect if he thought it was a sham. He chose other lines of attack - and he's not one to shy away from an obvious line of attack.

A), C), and D) are simply not information recorded on any university transcript, which is the only public record you have out of university education. And having been on multiple hiring and graduate admissions committees I've seen plenty.

Especially a) attendance. WTF? University-level courses at best record attendance as a small component of a course's final grade. I'm allowed to make attendance 5% of my course outline, maximum. And I don't, because I give a rat's ass if you show up. Your loss if you don't - as an adult learner, I expect you to show up for what you paid for. I get paid either way if you don't. If you don't, well, thanks for reserving the oxygen in the room for those who do, I figure.

Anyone who thinks college records record attendance seriously has no idea how higher education works. We seriously don't care if you show up. We reward and elevate those who are serious, and if you're not and get an A somehow, well, bully on you.

258 AngryDude  Thu, Aug 9, 2012 7:23:26am

I find these conspiracy theorists wildly entertaining. I burst out laughing watching him talk about the President.


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