Ry Cooder: The Wall Street Part of Town
Walkin’ toward the Wall Street part of town
Music • Views: 29,480
Here’s another great track from Ry Cooder’s new album Election Special, coming out August 20th.
561 comments
1 |
b_sharp Sat, Aug 11, 2012 4:07:51pm |
Watch the rabid right complain about rich musicians singing about poor people getting a raw deal as if artist's concern with inequality is a new thing.
| 2 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 4:42:16pm |
Romney's federal income tax rate for 2010 would have been about 0.8% under the Ryan Plan.
Under Paul Ryan's plan, Mitt Romney wouldn't pay any taxes for the next ten years -- or any of the years after that. Now, do I know that that's true. Yes, I'm certain.
Well, maybe not quite nothing. In 2010 -- the only year we have seen a full return from him -- Romney would have paid an effective tax rate of around 0.82 percent under the Ryan plan, rather than the 13.9 percent he actually did. How would someone with more than $21 million in taxable income pay so little? Well, the vast majority of Romney's income came from capital gains, interest, and dividends. And Ryan wants to eliminate all taxes on capital gains, interest and dividends.
| 3 |
darthstar Sat, Aug 11, 2012 4:46:57pm |
Friendly fire! Samuelson blisters Romney's mittsbegotten tax plan: "It makes no sense."wapo.st/PG62gq— David Axelrod (@davidaxelrod) August 9, 2012
There seems to be a Democratic mole inside Mitt Romney’s campaign. Could it be Romney himself? Well, of course not. But considering the campaign’s behavior, it might just as well be. President Obama and his allies have cast Romney as a wealthy fat cat who’s out of touch with everyday Americans and who would use his presidency to enrich the already rich. To counter this damning image, the last thing you’d expect Romney to do is embrace a tax plan favoring the super-rich.
Which is exactly what he has done.
| 4 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Aug 11, 2012 4:47:02pm |
re: #2 erik_t
Romney's federal income tax rate for 2010 would have been about 0.8% under the Ryan Plan.
No wonder why he's distancing himself from Ryan's plan. Really though that's absurd. 0.82% taxes? How anyone in the middle class will see these two guys and think their policies will help them is beyond me. Ryan's policies seem to help those who don't need the help and hurt those who need help the most. Is that really what we want out of a leader?
| 5 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Aug 11, 2012 4:50:05pm |
The KosKidz are really excited about this today...
Rachel Maddow Talks About The Obama Ad Romney Doesn't Want to Talk About (video)
Just for fun I watched the video before going to the factcheckers. It would actually be comical if it wasn't deciding our future as a nation. She even lies about the Romney campaign not complaining about the ad.
[Link: www.sfgate.com...]
The Romney campaign dismisses the new ad as "another dishonorable and dishonest attack."
| 6 |
Lidane Sat, Aug 11, 2012 4:53:54pm |
re: #5 Killgore Trout
The solution to that ad is simple enough. Mitt should release his tax returns.
If there's nothing to hide, and if he could hang Obama HQ out to dry so easily, then why not do it?
| 8 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Aug 11, 2012 4:55:09pm |
Looks like Maddow is also taking some heat on some bad reporting about fracking.
Why You Shouldn't Count On Rachel Maddow For Science
| 10 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Aug 11, 2012 4:56:42pm |
re: #6 Lidane
The solution to that ad is simple enough. Mitt should release his tax returns.
If there's nothing to hide, and if he could hang Obama HQ out to dry so easily, then why not do it?
No kidding. And there's something funny about the campaign that willingly and laughed about twisting the president's words complaining about "new lows" and "dishonorable" politics. Sorry, Mitt and his team come across as whiny. They fight as dirty as the rest of them but they can't take it when they're criticized one bit.
| 11 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:00:08pm |
re: #9 Lidane
Fox News Pundits Wonder If Republicans Can Defend ‘Tax Cuts For The Wealthy’ With Ryan On The Ticket
Gee. I wonder.
They can't, but that won't stop them from trying. I think I'd have more respect for Romney if he'd embraced Ryan, "Plan" and all, rather than trying to act as though it's a la carte.
| 12 |
Lidane Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:00:14pm |
Oh, this should be fun:
Romney Slams Obama For Medicare Cuts In Ryan’s Budget
With Paul Ryan as his vice presidential nominee, Mitt Romney’s central argument pushing back against critics of the House budget chief’s Medicare plan is that President Obama cut deep into Medicare under the Affordable Care Act. But Ryan’s plan includes the same cuts, which don’t target beneficiaries.
“Unlike the current president, who has cut Medicare funding by $700 billion, we will preserve and protect Medicare and Social Security,” Romney said Saturday while introducing Ryan.
The trouble with this argument — made frequently by Republicans, including Ryan himself — is that Republicans have voted overwhelmingly for Ryan’s own budget which sustains the Medicare cuts in “Obamacare.” Conservatives argue that Ryan’s plan, unlike the Affordable Care Act, doesn’t use the Medicare savings to fund additional spending.
| 13 |
darthstar Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:00:32pm |
re: #6 Lidane
The solution to that ad is simple enough. Mitt should release his tax returns.
If there's nothing to hide, and if he could hang Obama HQ out to dry so easily, then why not do it?
Mitt doesn't want to win. Winning would require actual work. He likes just being the center of attention.
| 14 |
wrenchwench Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:01:13pm |
Frank says:Never stop until your good becomes better, and your better becomes the best.
Ry Cooder is 65 and just keeps getting better. Amazingly, I think his voice is improving too.
| 15 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:02:18pm |
re: #8 Killgore Trout
Looks like Maddow is also taking some heat on some bad reporting about fracking.
Why You Shouldn't Count On Rachel Maddow For Science
The last link doesn't discuss Maddow. The first just rehashes the second.
As for RealClearScience, I've never heard of it. I'll do some looking. The comments are almost universally right-wing, and the first thing that caught my eye on the front page is basically 'MURRICA FUCK YEAH. I want to do a little more digging.
If taken at face value, it's certainly a sad story. I hope it's wrong.
| 16 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:02:59pm |
re: #13 darthstar
Mitt doesn't want to win. Winning would require actual work. He likes just being the center of attention.
There is more money in for the loser. Well in the short term at least. Because if he loses, he's going to try to do the I was right, he was wrong thing that losing candidates sometimes do. I'm actual real interested in seeing how he acts if he loses. Some guys take losing well and become respected elder statesmen. George McGovern has been the butt of jokes for years among pundits but he's actually pretty well respected by policymakers. There was a nice article about his 90th birthday this past month. Mostly Democrats there but John Thune was there too.
| 17 |
Big Joe Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:04:53pm |
re: #8 Killgore Trout
From your first link:
Why? Because the needs of society can never, ever triumph over safety issues if there is any chance at all anything may go wrong. Media pundits like Rachel Maddow are why we have global warming, not energy companies.
LOL
| 18 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:06:03pm |
re: #16 HappyWarrior
There is more money in for the loser. Well in the short term at least. Because if he loses, he's going to try to do the I was right, he was wrong thing that losing candidates sometimes do. I'm actual real interested in seeing how he acts if he loses. Some guys take losing well and become respected elder statesmen. George McGovern has been the butt of jokes for years among pundits but he's actually pretty well respected by policymakers. There was a nice article about his 90th birthday this past month. Mostly Democrats there but John Thune was there too.
I don't for a second believe that Romney will handle loss well. He has nothing to look to after he ceases to be a candidate. With the damage he's done to his reputation these last two years, he'd never be taken seriously for a congressional run.
| 19 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:08:14pm |
re: #18 Targetpractice
I don't for a second believe that Romney will handle loss well. He has nothing to look to after he ceases to be a candidate. With the damage he's done to his reputation these last two years, he'd never be taken seriously for a congressional run.
I don't think so either. And I don't think he'd ever run for Congress. And hell if he did, where would he run? I seriously don't know what he calls home anymore and what he's going to be listed as being from.
| 21 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:09:20pm |
re: #17 Big Joe
From your first link:
LOL
Wow. Shouldn't have just ctrl-f'd for Maddow on that one, I guess.
Anyway, the second link seems legit enough that I'd assume there's more than a grain of truth to things. Certainly wouldn't be the first time the media fucked up science.
| 22 |
Digital Display Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:10:36pm |
re: #19 HappyWarrior
I don't think so either. And I don't think he'd ever run for Congress. And hell if he did, where would he run? I seriously don't know what he calls home anymore and what he's going to be listed as being from.
He'll end up the Commish for the NBA.. Which is perfect..He doesn't know shit about Basketball either..
| 23 |
Big Joe Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:11:38pm |
re: #21 erik_t
Wow. Shouldn't have just ctrl-f'd for Maddow on that one, I guess.
Anyway, the second link seems legit enough that I'd assume there's more than a grain of truth to things. Certainly wouldn't be the first time the media fucked up science.
I didn't bother with the other links after that, just moused over to see where they were from.
| 24 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:11:49pm |
re: #22 Digital Display
He'll end up the Commish for the NBA.. Which is perfect..He doesn't know shit about Basketball either..
Heh. That reminds because I actually thought W Bush would be a better baseball commissioner than president.
| 25 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:11:54pm |
re: #8 Killgore Trout
Looks like Maddow is also taking some heat on some bad reporting about fracking.
Why You Shouldn't Count On Rachel Maddow For Science
I would not rely on Maddow or Limbaugh for science reporting.
There has been enough of non scientists opining on matters they know nothing of to further political agendas.
Scientists are more than capable of speaking for themselves.
| 26 |
Lidane Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:13:02pm |
re: #17 Big Joe
LOL
Yeah. I read that one, which is nothing more than a conservative whine about how liberals are mean for questioning nuclear power and fracking and the energy industry, and dismissed the rest.
| 27 |
b_sharp Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:13:04pm |
re: #8 Killgore Trout
Looks like Maddow is also taking some heat on some bad reporting about fracking.
Why You Shouldn't Count On Rachel Maddow For Science
A comment from the author of the article linked to above:
Media pundits like Rachel Maddow are why we have global warming, not energy companies. In the 1980s, nuclear power was run out of the country by progressive anti-science kooks.
Seriously?
And from the link just above:
"The author hypothesizes that earthquakes can only occur if there is a suitable fault nearby. Did Maddow report that? No, of course not.
It doesn't matter that it only happens when the right conditions are there, it matters that it happens at all. That it happens means that oversight of placement is highly important so should be a consideration when authorizing fracking.
It's worth noting that geothermal energy -- a green energy source endorsed by many environmentalists -- also causes earthquakes. One such project in Basel, Switzerland was shut down because of them. Did Maddow mention that? No.
Sounds like the MBF has made an appearance.
Geothermal is less likely to pollute the water table and ground water.
This one has nothing to do with Maddow.
Do some critics use bad information? Yes. However, fracking has enough in question for us to take more than a sideways glance at its effects on health.
| 28 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:13:11pm |
re: #25 researchok
I would not rely on Maddow or Limbaugh for science reporting.
There has been enough of non scientists opining on matters they know nothing of to further political agendas.
I have to say regarding that, I wish the global warming awareness movement had a different spokesman than Al Gore. I appreciate what he's trying to do as it's an important issue but I think too many and wrongly at that see Al Gore and dismiss the issue's importance.
| 29 |
Kragar Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:14:37pm |
re: #18 Targetpractice
I don't for a second believe that Romney will handle loss well. He has nothing to look to after he ceases to be a candidate. With the damage he's done to his reputation these last two years, he'd never be taken seriously for a congressional run.
If the last 4 years has shown us anything, it has been that conservatives take losses with quiet dignity and poise.
| 31 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:15:49pm |
re: #25 researchok
I would not rely on Maddow or Limbaugh for science reporting.
There has been enough of non scientists opining on matters they know nothing of to further political agendas.
True. The reporting and bias are problematic enough on their own but this kind of thing is a large part of the reason our energy policy sucks and will continue to suck for the foreseeable future.
| 32 |
b_sharp Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:16:00pm |
re: #25 researchok
I would not rely on Maddow or Limbaugh for science reporting.
There has been enough of non scientists opining on matters they know nothing of to further political agendas.
Scientists are more than capable of speaking for themselves.
Maddow and Limbaugh aren't comparable.
| 33 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:16:24pm |
re: #29 Kragar
If the last 4 years has shown us anything, it has been that conservatives takes losses with quiet dignity and poise.
| 34 |
jaunte Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:16:27pm |
re: #15 erik_t
As for RealClearScience, I've never heard of it.
51% owned by Forbes Media, according to this.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
| 35 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:16:31pm |
| 36 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:17:20pm |
| 37 |
wrenchwench Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:18:17pm |
re: #35 researchok
They are.
They are not scientists.
When it comes to this:
There has been enough of non scientists opining on matters they know nothing of to further political agendas.
Maddow and Limbaugh are not comparable. Not in the same ball park.
| 38 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:18:45pm |
re: #36 erik_t
My point is simple.
I want science reported by either scientists or science reporters, not by anyone who might be perceived to have a bias or political agenda.
| 39 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:19:03pm |
re: #36 erik_t
Neither is my cat. What's your point?
Your cat isn't trustworthy source of science news or energy policy either.
| 40 |
wrenchwench Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:19:41pm |
re: #38 researchok
My point is simple.
I want science reported by either scientists or science reporters, not by anyone who might be perceived to have a bias or political agenda.
The right wing sees all scientists as having bias and personal agendas. ALL of them.
| 41 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:19:49pm |
re: #37 wrenchwench
Why are they not in the same ballpark when it comes to reporting on science?
| 42 |
b_sharp Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:20:25pm |
re: #31 Killgore Trout
True. The reporting and bias are problematic enough on their own but this kind of thing is a large part of the reason our energy policy sucks and will continue to suck for the foreseeable future.
NIMBY wasn't invented by progressives, it's been part of communities for centuries. It started with people and has progressed to technology. The fear of nuclear power started in 1945.
| 43 |
wrenchwench Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:20:41pm |
re: #41 researchok
Why are they not in the same ballpark when it comes to reporting on science?
Because Limbaugh will lie and lie and lie some more to further his agenda.
| 45 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:22:11pm |
re: #41 researchok
Why are they not in the same ballpark when it comes to reporting on science?
Rush Limbaugh alleges that an entire field of climatology is a conspiracy. To my knowledge, Rachel Maddow does not do that.
| 46 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:22:16pm |
re: #40 wrenchwench
The right wing?
All the right wing? Or maybe just a paret of the right wing?
As in a part of the left wing who believed Rachel Carson's stand on DDT had merit.
Do you know how many documented cases of deaths related to DDT there have been?
| 47 |
b_sharp Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:23:06pm |
re: #34 jaunte
51% owned by Forbes Media, according to this.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
If they put forward the narrow, ignorant definition of science that fundies do, it should be ignored.
| 48 |
Obdicut Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:23:39pm |
re: #46 researchok
Do you know how many documented cases of deaths related to DDT there have been?
Probably hundreds of thousands of birds.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Actually probably millions of birds, but I bet we could only document hundreds of thousands.
| 49 |
b_sharp Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:24:20pm |
re: #35 researchok
They are.
They are not scientists.
Maddow tries to stick to scientifically accurate science, Limbaugh makes his science up out of whole cloth.
| 50 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:24:21pm |
What I think we need are more intelligent shows. That's why I like things like NPR and PBS. I've never gotten the appeal of political talk radio where the host pretty much engages in basically saying the other side is the worst thing ever to happen and his or her callers pretty call in to circle jerk the host and tell him how great he is and how great it is that "someone" is standing up. This is more less a rant punditry as a whole but I really don't like political talk radio. I actually think Jersey Shore may be more better for society and it hurt saying that.
| 51 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:24:58pm |
If the goal is improved quality of reporting in science (and every other field), that's great. I'm all for that.
If we're going to require people covering science-related stories to have science degrees, we just won't have any science coverage in any mass-market media. This does not seem like a good trade.
If we're saying that qualification to speak to science matters is actually binary-valued, well that's just fucking stupid.
| 52 |
Big Joe Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:25:02pm |
The problem with DDT was not it's toxicity, it was that DDT accumulated in the environment and top predator birds were unable to lay viable eggs. Maybe you're not old enough to remember all the effort to save the eagles, hawks and condor.
edited
| 53 |
jaunte Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:25:15pm |
re: #47 b_sharp
I think they're mostly selling clicks to advertisers:
[Link: www.realclearscience.com...]
| 54 |
Lidane Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:25:29pm |
re: #40 wrenchwench
The right wing sees all scientists as having bias and personal agendas. ALL of them.
I'm going to default to one of my favorite scientists about that:
| 55 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:25:59pm |
re: #45 erik_t
That is true.
But Maddow has been known to fudge the truth as well.
Now, we could get into a he said she said, which makes my point- let the scientists or science reporters deliver science news.
| 56 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:26:29pm |
| 57 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:27:17pm |
re: #49 b_sharp
Some of her remarks re fracking undermine that.
| 58 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:27:20pm |
re: #55 researchok
But Maddow has been known to fudge the truth as well.
Do you believe that Limbaugh's coverage of science and Maddow's coverage of science are equally untrustworthy?
| 59 |
Obdicut Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:27:25pm |
re: #52 Big Joe
And the pelicans, and the sandpipers-- DDT gets absorbed easily by little sea critters, so anything that eats that will pick it up. So not just the predators, but also the seabirds.
| 60 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:28:02pm |
| 61 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:28:09pm |
re: #56 researchok
Human deaths.
But I guess you already know the answer to that.
Are humans the only animals on this planet? The sum total of the food chain?
| 64 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:28:51pm |
re: #50 HappyWarrior
What I think we need are more intelligent shows. That's why I like things like NPR and PBS. I've never gotten the appeal of political talk radio where the host pretty much engages in basically saying the other side is the worst thing ever to happen and his or her callers pretty call in to circle jerk the host and tell him how great he is and how great it is that "someone" is standing up. This is more less a rant punditry as a whole but I really don't like political talk radio. I actually think Jersey Shore may be more better for society and it hurt saying that.
Agreed. I do think that NPR and PBS are loaded with liberals but they're responsible and reasonably honest. At least they try to be serious adults.
| 65 |
Obdicut Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:29:45pm |
re: #56 researchok
Human deaths.
But I guess you already know the answer to that.
Yeah, I did. What Carson wrote about was the indiscriminate use of DDT when we didn't really understand the environmental impact of it. She was right. One of the major environmental effects that occurred, and was thankfully stopped by the DDT ban, was the egg-thinning of many bird species, a lot of which fill important niches in the ecosystem.
| 66 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:29:59pm |
re: #59 Obdicut
Human deaths, as was the premise of Rachel Carson's book- which I'm sure you know all about.
Now, do how many deaths (roughly) have come about as a result of not using DDT?
| 67 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:30:22pm |
"The four corners of deceit: government, academia, science and media. Those institutions are now corrupt and exist by virtue of deceit. That’s how they promulgate themselves; it is how they prosper."
.
"science has become a home for displaced socialists and communists"
.
XXXXX has called climate-change science “the biggest scam in the history of the world”.
.
“The ocean will take care of this [Deepwater Horizon] on its own if it was left alone and left out there. It’s natural. It’s as natural as the ocean water is.”
.
“Cholesterol has nothing to do with heart disease. Nothing wrong with saturated fats.”
Okay, class. How many of these things were said by Rush Limbaugh, and how many by Rachel Maddow?
| 68 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:30:36pm |
re: #61 Targetpractice
Carson's book was focused on the impact of DDT on humans.
| 69 |
Obdicut Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:30:59pm |
re: #64 Killgore Trout
Agreed. I do think that NPR and PBS are loaded with liberals but they're responsible and reasonably honest. At least they try to be serious adults.
In the current political climate, it's because they're 'loaded with liberals' (though PBS actually gives tons of air time to conservatives) that they're responsible and reasonably honest.
There's no right-wing media source that that could be said of.
| 70 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:31:28pm |
re: #55 researchok
That is true.
But Maddow has been known to fudge the truth as well.
Now, we could get into a he said she said, which makes my point- let the scientists or science reporters deliver science news.
Well, I think the core issue here is she's advancing an energy policy, the bad science is just a dishonest tool to achieve that. This is more about lying for the cause than scientific ignorance.
| 71 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:31:50pm |
re: #68 researchok
Carson's book was focused on the impact of DDT on humans.
And if it wasn't, would the impact and the public support of DDT banning been as great?
People today remember "The Jungle" as being the spark behind the foundation of what would become the FDA and the cleaning up of entire food industries. And yet, Sinclair did not intend for that and was actually shocked that that's what people got out of it.
| 72 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:32:08pm |
re: #64 Killgore Trout
Agreed. I do think that NPR and PBS are loaded with liberals but they're responsible and reasonably honest. At least they try to be serious adults.
That's why I prefer them over the cable media. They try to be serious adults and they have more interesting discussions. Plus they have some neat stuff. Lead singer of the Decemberists and his older sister, for example were having a neat discussion about the music they used to listen with their mother on long drives. I prefer stuff like that over the latest celeb gossip.
| 73 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:32:17pm |
re: #69 Obdicut
In the current political climate, it's because they're 'loaded with liberals' (though PBS actually gives tons of air time to conservatives) that they're responsible and reasonably honest.
There's no right-wing media source that that could be said of.
No, not that I can think of.
| 74 |
b_sharp Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:32:55pm |
re: #38 researchok
My point is simple.
I want science reported by either scientists or science reporters, not by anyone who might be perceived to have a bias or political agenda.
Then you should reject the links KT posted out of hand.
How about laypeople who spend a great deal of time researching science by talking to scientists in the appropriate fields? Or people like me who have two degrees that required classes in the hard sciences and spend time talking to scientists?
Or people like Gore who try to check the information they use with scientists.
| 75 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:33:29pm |
re: #41 researchok
Why are they not in the same ballpark when it comes to reporting on science?
They're not even close to being in the same ballpark. Rachel Maddow may get some things wrong when she reports on science, but she's coming from a basic place of accepting scientific fact and at least trying to get things correct, even if she doesn't always succeed.
Rush Limbaugh is peddling horrible, dangerous anti-science denial to the right. Deliberate ignorance.
They aren't even close to being the same.
| 76 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:33:47pm |
re: #67 erik_t
.
.
.
.
Okay, class. How many of these things were said by Rush Limbaugh, and how many by Rachel Maddow?
It's pretty pathetic how ignorant that guy is. His knowledge of history isn't much better. An old Limbaughism that I often see is Rush saying that there are more American Indians in the US now than when the first Europeans landed.
| 77 |
Big Joe Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:34:18pm |
re: #66 researchok
Human deaths, as was the premise of Rachel Carson's book- which I'm sure you know all about.
Now, do how many deaths (roughly) have come about as a result of not using DDT?
DDT is still legal in the USA, for certain uses.
| 78 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:34:24pm |
re: #76 HappyWarrior
It's pretty pathetic how ignorant that guy is. His knowledge of history isn't much better. An old Limbaughism that I often see is Rush saying that there are more American Indians in the US now than when the first Europeans landed.
Yeah, well he's only off by a few...million.
/
| 79 |
Digital Display Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:34:26pm |
re: #55 researchok
That is true.
But Maddow has been known to fudge the truth as well.
Now, we could get into a he said she said, which makes my point- let the scientists or science reporters deliver science news.
I have my favorite science sites I have trusted for years...Unwavering
Phil over at Bad Astronomy, Dr. Pamela Gay, Universe today...Etc..
| 80 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:34:28pm |
re: #71 Targetpractice
Again, how many deaths were attributed to DDT?
Just the credible facts, not the opinions.
And again, how many deaths over the last few decades can be attributed to not using DDT?
How about we just focus on malaria?
| 81 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:34:38pm |
re: #70 Killgore Trout
Well, I think the core issue here is she's advancing an energy policy, the bad science is just a dishonest tool to achieve that. This is more about lying for the cause than scientific ignorance.
Waitaminute. She doesn't even know what the fuck she's talking about; that's why she shouldn't talk about science. If she doesn't know what she's talking about, how can she have constructed a lie to further the cause?
| 82 |
Big Joe Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:35:54pm |
re: #80 researchok
Again, how many deaths were attributed to DDT?
Just the credible facts, not the opinions.
And again, how many deaths over the last few decades can be attributed to not using DDT?
How about we just focus on malaria?
DDT is still used all over the world for malaria carrying mosquitoes.
| 83 |
Obdicut Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:36:11pm |
re: #66 researchok
Human deaths, as was the premise of Rachel Carson's book- which I'm sure you know all about.
I do know about her book, and that was not her premise, except to the extent that the toxicity of DDT on humans was unknown-- which was true.
Now, do how many deaths (roughly) have come about as a result of not using DDT?
This is an difficult number to arrive at. The US doesn't have malaria or many deaths from moqsuito-borne poison. Are you asking worldwide? Because DDT is not banned worldwide, though it's use is curtailed for surgical strikes on especially aggressive mosquito populations so that a general resistance to DDT doesn't form. In fact, given the nature of evolution, something like DDT is never going to be permanently useful if it's widely used; the pest populations will simply eventually develop a resistance to it. Then you'll have polluted your ecosystem for no actual permanent advantage. Reasonable, controlled usage in critical areas is much better.
The US, with only West Nile Virus as a serious mosquito-borne threat, isn't one of those places-- or if it were to be used, it should only be used on critical mosquito populations during West Nile outbreaks.
What number would you arrive at, for the US, that not spraying DDT cost?
| 84 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:36:24pm |
re: #8 Killgore Trout
Looks like Maddow is also taking some heat on some bad reporting about fracking.
Why You Shouldn't Count On Rachel Maddow For Science
"RealClearScience" is a right wing outlet run by the same people who do RealClearPolitics, and they have a very definite agenda of their own.
| 85 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:36:37pm |
re: #75 Charles Johnson
I conceded Limbaugh is a far more egregious offender- but that does not make Maddow more credible.
Science needs to reported on by scientists or science reporters.
The whole AGW debacle was in no small measure because of agenda based, political reporting.
| 86 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:36:59pm |
| 87 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:37:03pm |
re: #85 researchok
I conceded Limbaugh is a far more egregious offender- but that does not make Maddow more credible.
That doesn't even make sense.
| 88 |
Obdicut Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:37:26pm |
re: #80 researchok
Again, how many deaths were attributed to DDT?
Just the credible facts, not the opinions.
And again, how many deaths over the last few decades can be attributed to not using DDT?
How about we just focus on malaria?
In the US? Zero. Zero deaths in the US were caused by not using DDT, because there is no malaria in the US.
| 89 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:37:27pm |
re: #85 researchok
I conceded Limbaugh is a far more egregious offender- but that does not make Maddow more credible.
Science needs to reported on by scientists or science reporters.
The whole AGW debacle was in no small measure because of agenda based, political reporting.
Yes, it does make Maddow far more credible than Rush Limbaugh, because she's not starting from a place of ignorant dishonesty.
| 90 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:37:32pm |
re: #75 Charles Johnson
They're not even close to being in the same ballpark. Rachel Maddow may get some things wrong when she reports on science, but she's coming from a basic place of accepting scientific fact and at least trying to get things correct, even if she doesn't always succeed.
Rush Limbaugh is peddling horrible, dangerous anti-science denial to the right. Deliberate ignorance.
They aren't even close to being the same.
And Charles, if I may say, KT thread jacked again. With his off topic moment of trying to MBF with oh contraire concern.
My opinion: fucking tiring.
| 91 |
wrenchwench Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:37:37pm |
re: #46 researchok
The right wing?
All the right wing? Or maybe just a paret of the right wing?
As in a part of the left wing who believed Rachel Carson's stand on DDT had merit.
Do you know how many documented cases of deaths related to DDT there have been?
All scientists, not all right wingers.
Rachel Carson is a right wing touchstone. I'm not going to get into the winger argument about how many millions were killed by malaria because DDT was banned. It's stupid. How many millions still die from malaria because wingnuts want to cut foreign aid? Let's just not start (although I see you've already gotten an earful while I was busy).
| 92 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:37:52pm |
re: #84 Charles Johnson
But that doesn't make the reports flawed. They did quote scientists.
| 94 |
b_sharp Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:38:45pm |
re: #46 researchok
The right wing?
All the right wing? Or maybe just a paret of the right wing?
As in a part of the left wing who believed Rachel Carson's stand on DDT had merit.
Do you know how many documented cases of deaths related to DDT there have been?
DDT was affecting more than just humans.
DDT and DDE have been linked to diabetes. A number of studies from the US, Canada, and Sweden have found that the prevalence of the disease in a population increases with serum DDT or DDE levels.
The US Environmental Protection Agency states that DDT exposure damages the reproductive system and reduces reproductive success. These effects may cause developmental and reproductive toxicity:
Carson was not the first to be concerned. Scientists were concerned in the '40s.
| 95 |
Lidane Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:39:11pm |
re: #89 Charles Johnson
Yes, it does make Maddow far more credible than Rush Limbaugh, because she's not starting from a place of deliberate
ignorantdishonesty.
FTFY. Limbaugh knows damn well what he's doing. He makes money off the deluded, ignorant sheep that follow him, so he has to keep them deluded and ignorant.
| 96 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:39:16pm |
re: #91 wrenchwench
Again, the DDT over reaction was- and remains- a tragedy.
Unfortunately, the scientists were overrun
| 97 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:40:12pm |
re: #94 b_sharp
Again, how many documented human deaths were reported that were attributed to DDT?
| 99 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:40:29pm |
re: #96 researchok
Again, the DDT over reaction was- and remains- a tragedy.
Unfortunately, the scientists were overrun
I could not disagree more. If you really looked into the DDT issue, you would thank Rachel Carson for blowing the whistle.
| 100 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:40:39pm |
re: #80 researchok
Again, how many deaths were attributed to DDT?
Just the credible facts, not the opinions.
And again, how many deaths over the last few decades can be attributed to not using DDT?
How about we just focus on malaria?
I was unaware that malaria was a disease widespread in the continental US.
| 101 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:41:20pm |
The rest of the media is just as untrustworthy as Limbaugh, and we shouldn't have stopped using DDT but those darn libruls made us.
Did I hit my head? Did I wake up in LGF2003?
| 102 |
wrenchwench Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:41:31pm |
re: #85 researchok
I conceded Limbaugh is a far more egregious offender- but that does not make Maddow more credible.
Science needs to reported on by scientists or science reporters.
The whole AGW debacle was in no small measure because of agenda based, political reporting.
The public needs to be science-literate enough to be able to tell what a big fat fucking liar Limbaugh is. Science-literate people of any profession should be able to discuss science.
Who is opposed to science-literacy? Right wing nuts. Don't be one of 'em.
| 103 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:42:02pm |
A good post full of facts about DDT and why the human race needed to stop using this horrendous poison:
[Link: timpanogos.wordpress.com...]
| 104 |
Obdicut Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:42:16pm |
re: #96 researchok
Again, the DDT over reaction was- and remains- a tragedy.
Unfortunately, the scientists were overrun
You sound like you think DDT was banned worldwide. You do know it's still in use, right?
And you do know the real, actual science of DDT is that it really, really does have a terrible effect along the ecosystem, especially devastating to birds? That's why we restrict its use for critical strikes against mosquito-borne illness outbreaks.
And do you get the whole thing about how overuse of it would actually speed resistance to it?
| 105 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:42:20pm |
re: #99 Charles Johnson
I have yet to see the evidence provided by the scientific community.
If I'm wrong, I will happily concede that.
| 106 |
Big Joe Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:43:15pm |
re: #99 Charles Johnson
I could not disagree more. If you really looked into the DDT issue, you would thank Rachel Carson for blowing the whistle.
I learned this stuff in the late 60s in 7th and 8th grade in California public school. How can it be not known now, 45 years later?
| 107 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:43:29pm |
re: #101 erik_t
The rest of the media is just as untrustworthy as Limbaugh, and we shouldn't have stopped using DDT but those darn libruls made us.
Did I hit my head? Did I wake up in LGF2003u
Unbelievable. I don't care what party you support, but just throwing away history and facts, or trying to MBF it? Crazy. Just fucking crazy.
| 108 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:43:30pm |
re: #100 Targetpractice
The call was for a global ban- and in fact, DDT was banned in many countries and as a result, malaria deaths skyrocketed.
| 109 |
wrenchwench Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:43:33pm |
re: #85 researchok
The whole AGW debacle was in no small measure because of agenda based, political reporting.
Patently not true. Koch-funded bullshit was responsible for feeding lies as talking points to media wingnuts.
| 110 |
darthstar Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:43:43pm |
Uh, Mitt...VPs aren't there to take your punches for you. You still have to answer your own questions.
Romney on having a VP: "It's now two on two instead of two on one...They've go someone else to pick on too. Ha Ha Ha."— Zeke Miller (@ZekeJMiller) August 12, 2012
Coward wants to hide behind Ryan.
| 111 |
Obdicut Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:44:28pm |
re: #105 researchok
I have yet to see the evidence provided by the scientific community.
If I'm wrong, I will happily concede that.
Have you looked? LIke, Wiki, for example, gives a lot of good links to papers demonstrating the ecological impact.
Here's a paper on eggshell thinning:
[Link: onlinelibrary.wiley.com...]
And here's the general toxicology profile of DDT from the CDC.
[Link: www.atsdr.cdc.gov...]
| 112 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:44:29pm |
The right wing has spread an amazing amount of bullshit out there about DDT. The agriculture industry REALLY wanted to continue using it, long after overwhelming proof that it was horrible stuff.
Just like tobacco, and just like climate change, this issue has been poisoned by propaganda from right wing sources.
| 113 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:44:32pm |
re: #108 researchok
The call was for a global ban- and in fact, DDT was banned in many counries and as a result, malaria deaths skyrocketed.
And which do you think would have a more dire result in the long run: the banning of DDT or the ecological damage done by its widespread usage?
| 114 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:44:42pm |
re: #106 Big Joe
I learned this stuff in the late 60s in 7th and 8th grade in California public school. How can it be not known now, 45 years later?
Dow Chemical and their lobbiests/minions.
Working.
| 115 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:44:51pm |
re: #108 researchok
The call was for a global ban- and in fact, DDT was banned in many countries and as a result, malaria deaths skyrocketed.
Um, the world population skyrocketed. Maybe you heard.
| 116 |
Lidane Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:44:58pm |
re: #102 wrenchwench
The public needs to be science-literate enough to be able to tell what a big fat fucking liar Limbaugh is. Science-literate people of any profession should be able to discuss science.
Who is opposed to science-literacy? Right wing nuts. Don't be one of 'em.
YES. THIS.
It's no accident that Limbaugh and the rest of the loonies place pseudo-science junk like Creationism and "Intelligent Design" on par with actual science. They want people to be scientifically illiterate and uninformed so they can't see that they're being lied to about things like fracking and science education in schools.
Problem is, these days, that kind of ignorance is fucking dangerous. We live in a technological age where damn near everything we do and say requires some sort of tech savvy and scientific understanding. Limbaugh and the rest of the right wing goons are hurting this country by continuing to keep people stupid about science.
| 117 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:45:11pm |
re: #109 wrenchwench
Patently not true. Koch-funded bullshit was responsible for feeding lies as talking points to media wingnuts.
That is exactly my point!
| 118 |
Obdicut Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:45:50pm |
re: #108 researchok
The call was for a global ban- and in fact, DDT was banned in many countries and as a result, malaria deaths skyrocketed.
Do you understand that overuse of DDT would simply lead to resistance to DDT, rendering it useless for vector control?
| 119 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:46:06pm |
| 120 |
Varek Raith Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:47:04pm |
| 121 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:47:11pm |
re: #110 darthstar
Uh, Mitt...VPs aren't there to take your punches for you. You still have to answer your own questions.
[Embedded content]
Coward wants to hide behind Ryan.
Heh, what a lame ass. I can't wait for Ryan to start talking about his budget plan and alienating people more than he pleases them.
| 122 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:47:21pm |
re: #119 researchok
Right.
So it was OK Malaria deaths skyrocketed.
Yep. Also, I support raping and stabbing.
| 123 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:47:53pm |
re: #118 Obdicut
Do you understand that overuse of DDT would simply lead to resistance to DDT, rendering it useless for vector control?
I'm impressed with your expertise.
Do you have a credible, definitive source for that opinion?
| 124 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:48:07pm |
re: #118 Obdicut
Do you understand that overuse of DDT would simply lead to resistance to DDT, rendering it useless for vector control?
Would? Try has.
Resistance has greatly reduced DDT's effectiveness. WHO guidelines require that absence of resistance must be confirmed before using the chemical.[94] Resistance is largely due to agricultural use, in much greater quantities than required for disease prevention. According to one study that attempted to quantify the lives saved by banning agricultural use and thereby slowing the spread of resistance, "it can be estimated that at current rates each kilo of insecticide added to the environment will generate 105 new cases of malaria."[22]
Resistance was noted early in spray campaigns. Paul Russell, a former head of the Allied Anti-Malaria campaign, observed in 1956 that "resistance has appeared after six or seven years."[20] DDT has lost much of its effectiveness in Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Turkey and Central America, and it has largely been replaced by organophosphate or carbamate insecticides, e.g. malathion or bendiocarb.[95]
In many parts of India, DDT has also largely lost its effectiveness.[96] Agricultural uses were banned in 1989, and its anti-malarial use has been declining. Urban use has halted completely.[97] Nevertheless, DDT is still manufactured and used,[98] and one study had concluded that "DDT is still a viable insecticide in indoor residual spraying owing to its effectivity in well supervised spray operation and high excito-repellency factor."[99]
| 125 |
Varek Raith Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:48:29pm |
re: #123 researchok
I'm impressed with your expertise.
Do you have a credible, definitive source for that opinion?
Wow...
| 126 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:48:42pm |
re: #123 researchok
I'm impressed with your expertise.
Do you have a credible, definitive source for that opinion?
For someone who was so adamant about only qualified scientists talking about science, you sure don't seem to be very qualified to talk about science.
| 127 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:48:43pm |
re: #8 Killgore Trout
Looks like Maddow is also taking some heat on some bad reporting about fracking.
Why You Shouldn't Count On Rachel Maddow For Science
Dishonest reporting: It's not just a Fox News thing.
| 128 |
wrenchwench Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:48:59pm |
re: #117 researchok
That is exactly my point!
It may be your point, but it's not what you said. You called it 'political reporting'. It is not. It is propaganda fed by Koch to wingnut bloggers and other media personalities. It is not reporting.
| 129 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:49:14pm |
| 130 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:49:35pm |
Another very good post debunking the lies about DDT and malaria:
[Link: membracid.wordpress.com...]
| 131 |
Lidane Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:49:55pm |
re: #127 Dark_Falcon
Except that KT's links are junk too. Back to square one.
| 132 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:50:15pm |
| 133 |
wrenchwench Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:50:15pm |
re: #123 researchok
I'm impressed with your expertise.
Do you have a credible, definitive source for that opinion?
If you were more familiar with science and a little further from right-wing bullshit sources, you would not ask that. It is general knowledge for the science-literate.
| 134 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:50:33pm |
This has been an eye-opening evening. I had no idea that anybody but the black helicopter lunatic fringe had a problem with the DDT ban.
Well, and ADM and the like, but that's to be assumed.
| 135 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:50:51pm |
re: #120 Varek Raith
| 136 |
SpaceJesus Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:51:02pm |
Mitt Romney would pay .82 percent in taxes under Ryan Plan
[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]
| 137 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:51:17pm |
re: #136 SpaceJesus
Mitt Romney would pay .82 percent in taxes under Ryan Plan
[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]
SHHHHH
WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT DDT
/
| 138 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:51:31pm |
re: #87 erik_t
That doesn't even make sense.
What it means is that if Maddow fracking report is at a dishonesty level of four out of ten, the fact that Limbaugh regularly hits ELEVENTY on that same scale does not move Maddow's dishonesty level from four down to two.
| 139 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:51:35pm |
re: #125 Varek Raith
Wow?
Asking for a source is objectionable?
| 140 |
b_sharp Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:51:56pm |
re: #97 researchok
Again, how many documented human deaths were reported that were attributed to DDT?
None.
So what?
If it causes cancer in humans and reproductive problems in humans and other animals it should have been banned. What negatives were there in the US when it was banned?
| 141 |
wrenchwench Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:51:56pm |
re: #134 erik_t
This has been an eye-opening evening. I had no idea that anybody but the black helicopter lunatic fringe had a problem with the DDT ban.
Well, and ADM and the like, but that's to be assumed.
Researchok is a recovering wingnut. He doesn't yet realize what a looong journey he has set out upon.
| 142 |
Lidane Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:52:14pm |
re: #136 SpaceJesus
Mitt Romney would pay .82 percent in taxes under Ryan Plan
[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]
But we'd never know about that since he's allergic to releasing his tax returns.
| 143 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:52:31pm |
re: #133 wrenchwench
All I'm asking for is a credible source.
Why is that offensive- and why does that merit a personal attack?
| 144 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:52:45pm |
re: #141 wrenchwench
Researchok is a recovering wingnut. He doesn't yet realize what a looong journey he has set out upon.
LOLOLOL
| 145 |
Obdicut Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:52:46pm |
re: #123 researchok
I'm impressed with your expertise.
Do you have a credible, definitive source for that opinion?
Yes, it's called a really basic knowledge of evolution.
They had thought and hoped that organic insecticides like DDT would prove troublesome to resist, but flies developed resistance in the late forties.
| 146 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:52:53pm |
re: #135 researchok
Not a single mention of DDT in the abstract/summary. Who wants to bet on how many mentions I'll find if I sign up and search the full text?
| 147 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:53:09pm |
re: #136 SpaceJesus
Mitt Romney would pay .82 percent in taxes under Ryan Plan
[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]
Well one can't blame him for not wanting to talk about the Ryan plan now since it means Mitt would be able get more dancing horses just in time for the Rio Olympics.
| 148 |
Big Joe Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:53:11pm |
re: #135 researchok
Global malaria deaths increased from 995 000 (95% uncertainty interval 711 000—1 412 000) in 1980 to a peak of 1 817 000
The population in malaria prone areas has also more than doubled since 1980.
| 149 |
Varek Raith Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:53:27pm |
| 150 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:53:36pm |
re: #131 Lidane
Except that KT's links are junk too. Back to square one.
Realclearscience is junk? I've not heard that. They are right about Three Mile Island and the flaming tap water, and Maddow did present those dishonestly.
| 151 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:54:04pm |
re: #146 erik_t
Not a single mention of DDT in the abstract/summary. Who wants to bet on how many mentions I'll find if I sign up and search the full text?
Correlation does not equal causation.
| 152 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:54:13pm |
re: #145 Obdicut
Yes, it's called a really basic knowledge of evolution.
They had thought and hoped that organic insecticides like DDT would prove troublesome to resist, but flies developed resistance in the late forties.
Do you have a credible source for that? Are there any dissenting opinions?
| 153 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:54:29pm |
re: #150 Dark_Falcon
Realclearscience is junk? I've not heard that. They are right about Three Mile Island and the flaming tap water, and Maddow did present those dishonestly.
Run by RealClearPolitics folks who are, at least, honest about their slant.
| 154 |
Obdicut Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:54:32pm |
re: #143 researchok
All I'm asking for is a credible source.
Why is that offensive- and why does that merit a personal attack?
You ere given a whole chunk of credible sources above.
But moreover, it's just a really basic evolutionary fact. If you saturate a population with a poison, they will develop a resistance to that poison. The more you do it, the faster it will happen and the more absolute the resistance will become. Use of DDT has already caused this to occur; it was linked for you above.
| 155 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:54:38pm |
re: #152 researchok
Do you have a credible source for that? Are there any dissenting opinions?
Are you fucking kidding?
| 157 |
jaunte Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:55:29pm |
re: #152 researchok
Structure of an insect delta-class glutathione S-transferase from a DDT-resistant strain of the malaria vector Anopheles gambiae
[Link: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...]
| 158 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:55:34pm |
Study Links Flammable Tap Water to Fracking
A peer-reviewed study released this week about fracking — the process of injecting a mixture of toxic chemicals deep into the ground at high pressures to access natural gas — has confirmed concerns about safety risks associated with the process. The peer-reviewed study, published on Monday in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, drew several different conclusions. Some of the conclusions, like the lack of evidence linking fracking chemicals to contamination in tested water wells, were welcome news to the gas industry, but other findings were more damning.
One of the conclusions was a direct link between fracking wells and the seepage of gas contaminants underground, a finding that proves there are pathways for contaminants to migrate deep underground.
“We certainly didn’t expect to see such a strong relationship between the concentration of methane in water and the nearest gas wells. That was a real surprise,” said Robert Jackson, a biology professor at Duke and one of the report’s authors.
Contamination from methane, and not the mixture of substances used in the chemical cocktail that is injected into frack wells, has been a ubiquitous complaint by people living near fracking wells across the country. In 2004, a methane explosion in Pennsylvania killed three people, including a baby. A 2009 report by ProPublica showed that methane contamination from fracking was present in Colorado, Ohio and Pennsylvania.
| 159 |
wrenchwench Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:55:38pm |
re: #143 researchok
All I'm asking for is a credible source.
Why is that offensive- and why does that merit a personal attack?
It's not offensive. It is impressive, but not in a good way. I apologize if I've made a personal attack (downdings don't count) and regret that others do, but you have revealed a shallowness of understanding that surprised some people. It's like asking for a source for my claim that water is wet.
| 160 |
b_sharp Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:55:50pm |
re: #119 researchok
Right.
So it was OK Malaria deaths skyrocketed.
Show us.
Scientists only please. (per your requirements)
| 161 |
Big Joe Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:55:57pm |
re: #138 Dark_Falcon
What it means is that if Maddow fracking report is at a dishonesty level of four out of ten, the fact that Limbaugh regularly hits ELEVENTY on that same scale does not move Maddow's dishonesty level from four down to two.
You're starting with an assumption that she's a 4 of 10 on the dishonesty scale.
| 162 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:56:00pm |
| 163 |
Obdicut Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:56:08pm |
re: #152 researchok
Do you have a credible source for that? Are there any dissenting opinions?
No. There are no dissenting opinions in science about whether pesticide resistance occurs, because the very basic facts of evolution-- that organisms adapt to their environment over time-- says that it's true.
Moreover, it is documented as having happened, as was linked for you above. Hell, as I said, flies started getting resistance in the late forties.
| 164 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:56:18pm |
Well, so far what I've found is a lot of statistics about how many people have malaria, and the fact that they have a program to give out mosquito nets and polio vaccines at the same time, since people want the nets (who doesn't want to not be bit?) and so they'll take the vaccine to get it.
Ingenious.
| 165 |
darthstar Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:56:27pm |
re: #138 Dark_Falcon
Hey there! I was hoping you'd drop by. So how excited are you about Paul Ryan? Is that fucking awesome or what?
| 166 |
wrenchwench Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:56:31pm |
re: #152 researchok
Do you have a credible source for that? Are there any dissenting opinions?
Wet, wet, wet.
| 167 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:58:21pm |
re: #154 Obdicut
Yes, that is true.
But we were not discussing resistance. We were talking about the DDT's efficacy.
There are many drugs that become less effective over time. Does that mean they should not be used? Does that mean research could have not come up with more effective versions?
| 168 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:58:31pm |
Here's a Scientific American article on using DDT to combat Malaria.
[Link: www.scientificamerican.com...]
Here's my current take. I have three stinking bites on my stinking foot and I stinking hate mosquitoes. That's it.
| 169 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:59:15pm |
re: #146 erik_t
Not a single mention of DDT in the abstract/summary. Who wants to bet on how many mentions I'll find if I sign up and search the full text?
Survey says.... zero! Zero mentions!
And how about that death toll that surely soared in 2004 after the Stockholm Convention banned DDT worldwide?
| 170 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:59:27pm |
re: #167 researchok
Yes, that is true.
But we were not discussing resistance. We were talking about the DDT's efficacy.
There are many drugs that become less effective over time. Does that mean they should not be used? Does that mean research could have not come up with more effective versions?
There is no research on producing a more effective form of DDT?
| 171 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:59:32pm |
| 172 |
wrenchwench Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:59:48pm |
re: #167 researchok
Yes, that is true.
But we were not discussing resistance. We were talking about the DDT's efficacy.
There are many drugs that become less effective over time. Does that mean they should not be used? Does that mean research could have not come up with more effective versions?
Take a break and read some of the links that Charles posted about DDT.
Really, it's a wingnut issue. Learn from this. Get pissed at the jerks who have misled you. And never trust them again.
| 173 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:59:58pm |
re: #170 Targetpractice
Why would there be- it was banned.
| 175 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:00:22pm |
| 176 |
dragonfire1981 Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:00:30pm |
I know I've watched too much wrestling because the first thing I think of when I see DDT is Jake the Snake Roberts.
| 177 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:00:45pm |
re: #172 wrenchwench
Take a break and read some of the links that Charles posted about DDT.
Really, it's a wingnut issue. Learn from this. Get pissed at the jerks who have misled you. And never trust them again.
If only they were all as rational- and reasonable- as you and CJ....
| 178 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:01:06pm |
Do people even look at their own sources before they cite them, or do they hear from Rush vry srs science reporters that they support their crazy position and just assume it's true?
Do they not expect us to look?
Not everyone is that intellectually lazy.
| 179 |
wrenchwench Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:01:27pm |
re: #177 researchok
If only they were all as rational- and reasonable- as you and CJ....
If they were, they wouldn't be wingnuts.
| 180 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:01:30pm |
re: #175 Targetpractice
Almost, I believe India was the big user.
| 181 |
Big Joe Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:01:36pm |
| 182 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:03:04pm |
re: #181 Big Joe
So we ought not use drugs to which we may become resistant?
| 183 |
Obdicut Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:03:06pm |
re: #167 researchok
Yes, that is true.
But we were not discussing resistance. We were talking about the DDT's efficacy.
Yep. Which means you have to think about the resistance.
There are many drugs that become less effective over time. Does that mean they should not be used?
Absolutely it means they should not be widely used; the mass feeding of antibiotics to cattle is one of the reason we're seeing so much penicillin and amoxycillin resistant strains. It's a pretty direct analogy to DDT.
So yes, they shouldn't be used in the way they're currently being used, because it's worse in the long run.
Does that mean research could have not come up with more effective versions?
Holy shit, you really think scientists can just discover new antibiotic after antibiotic, we can blow through them without thinking? We can't keep handing out antibiotics for every sniffle and cold. We need to preserve our front-line antibiotics, because antibiotic research is very hard, very costly, and antibiotics tend to have significant side effects so even if you develop a new one, it may not work as well as the old.
Here's the Mayo Clinic on that subject.
[Link: www.mayoclinic.com...]
| 184 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:03:25pm |
re: #180 researchok
Almost, I believe India was the big user.
The WHO says there's still 12 countries using it, and that number is expected to rise.
| 185 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:03:50pm |
re: #161 Big Joe
You're starting with an assumption that she's a 4 of 10 on the dishonesty scale.
I was using it as an example, but yes, that's about where I'd rate her report.
| 186 |
Big Joe Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:03:56pm |
re: #182 researchok
So we ought not use drugs to which we may become resistant?
there were two drugs, they stopped using one to prevent worse resistance.
| 187 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:04:10pm |
re: #84 Charles Johnson
"RealClearScience" is a right wing outlet run by the same people who do RealClearPolitics, and they have a very definite agenda of their own.
I gave a second look into their front page. Scientific American, The Guardian, Smithsonian, Ars Technica, LA Times, Discovery News. They seem legit to me. No global warming denial, anti-evolution, etc. Seems like a decent science site.
| 188 |
Obdicut Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:04:14pm |
re: #173 researchok
Why would there be- it was banned.
DDT has never been banned globally. It has been banned for agricultural general spraying. It has never been banned for vector control, which is the actual useful function of DDT.
Do you understand that pesticide resistance is a real thing you need to worry about, yet? And that antibiotic resistance is, too?
| 189 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:05:07pm |
re: #186 Big Joe
there were two drugs, they stopped using one to prevent worse resistance.
More importantly, they started a campaign to stop people from asking for antibiotics "just in case." They no longer prescribe it unless it is truly indicated.*
*Fancy medical term for the day
| 190 |
The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:06:16pm |
re: #143 researchok
All I'm asking for is a credible source.
Why is that offensive- and why does that merit a personal attack?
I'VE GOT THIS TALKING POINT AND NOT ACTUAL EVIDENCE I"M GOING TO REPEAT IT UNTIL I'M APPEASED.
dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane
Accumulation and developmental issues for Children: 1, 2, 3, 4
Cancer: 1
By the way, your "version" comes from this guy:
---
Bate is on the board of Africa Fighting Malaria, a group promoting the use of DDT to control malaria. According to investigative journalist Adam Sarvana, he has been central to promoting "the myth that environmentalists, by preventing the use of the pesticide DDT … to kill mosquitoes in developing countries, have heartlessly caused millions of malaria deaths worldwide."[1] His critics argue that rather than being concerned with saving lives, Bate's principle motivation for promoting DDT is to advance a free market, anti-regulatory agenda while smearing the environmental movement.[1][4][5] For example, an article in the NRDC's magazine quotes Bate as saying, "DDT may be today's target, but it's not going to be long before chemicals that the industry cares about are added to the POPs Convention and other chemicals regulations."[6]
Aaron Swartz wrote in Extra! that "a funding pitch uncovered by blogger Eli Rabbett shows Bate’s thinking when he first started the project. 'The environmental movement has been successful in most of its campaigns as it has been ‘politically correct,’' he explained (Tobacco Archives, 09/98). What the anti-environmental movement needs is something with 'the correct blend of political correctness ( . . . oppressed blacks) and arguments (eco-imperialism [is] undermining their future).' That something, Bate proposed, was DDT."[4]
| 191 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:06:50pm |
re: #25 researchok
There has been enough of non scientists opining on matters they know nothing of to further political agendas.
LOL
| 192 |
dragonath Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:07:35pm |
I am absolutely shocked there is a debate here about DDT. Using the same logic, is lead responsible for human deaths? We don't use lead pipes anymore.
I'm not sure if anyone's brought this up, but we're dealing with insects- hundred of thousands and millions of generations, and yes, they have developed resistances.
Ask a ornithologist how it worked out for the raptors.
| 193 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:08:08pm |
| 194 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:09:26pm |
By the way, the World Health Organization has cautiously OK'ed the use of DDT in areas where malaria is epidemic, because it sure does kill the hell out of mosquitoes -- with long-term effects in the ecological system.
The problem is finding a way to fight a very crafty parasite without killing things that we don't want to kill.
| 195 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:09:44pm |
re: #190 The Ghost of a Flea
So why has the WHO endorsed the use of DDT to fight malaria?
| 196 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:10:02pm |
re: #193 researchok
Right.
That's why the WHO endorsed the use of DDT to fight malaria.
"The WHO's Kochi says resistance can be limited if DDT is used carefully, and only where it's likely to be effective."
DO YOU EVEN READ YOUR OWN SOURCES
| 197 |
Kragar Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:10:09pm |
Pulled about 6 left over prime ribs bones out of the freezer. Got them simmering in a pot for some beef and barley soup.
| 198 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:10:34pm |
re: #193 researchok
Right.
That's why the WHO endorsed the use of DDT to fight malaria.
Yes, the WHO approved it for antimalarial use. The problem that existed when Silent Spring was written and persisted until the Stockholm ban was the usage by farmers as a general insecticide, dumping millions of gallons of the stuff into the environment annually. DDT does not just break down in the environment, it persists and causes problems with the local wildlife.
| 199 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:10:40pm |
re: #187 Killgore Trout
I gave a second look into their front page. Scientific American, The Guardian, Smithsonian, Ars Technica, LA Times, Discovery News. They seem legit to me. No global warming denial, anti-evolution, etc. Seems like a decent science site.
And just an occasional article promoting the fracking industry.
| 200 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:11:46pm |
re: #194 Charles Johnson
That is a good- a separate argument.
DDT is no -panacea but it is not the health Armageddon it has been made out to be.
| 201 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:12:04pm |
re: #194 Charles Johnson
By the way, the World Health Organization has cautiously OK'ed the use of DDT in areas where malaria is epidemic, because it sure does kill the hell out of mosquitoes -- with long-term effects in the ecological system.
The problem is finding a way to fight a very crafty parasite without killing things that we don't want to kill.
What is done now with DDT is that it is impregnated into mosquito nets that people is areas beset by malaria hang over and around their beds. This keeps it from entering the ecosystem at large, but allows it to kill mosquitoes.
| 202 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:12:05pm |
re: #199 Charles Johnson
And just an occasional article promoting the fracking industry.
Their science seems sound.
| 203 |
darthstar Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:12:25pm |
re: #165 darthstar
Hey there! I was hoping you'd drop by. So how excited are you about Paul Ryan? Is that fucking awesome or what?
I figured this wouldn't get an answer...that's okay...Romney doesn't have an answer either, which is why he canceled all his TV appearances after bringing Ryan onto the ticket.
| 204 |
Kragar Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:12:48pm |
re: #202 Killgore Trout
Their science seems sound.
The science works.
The industry that actually does it properly and safely. Not so much.
| 205 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:13:01pm |
re: #196 erik_t
Yes- and if DDT were the nuclear bomb you say it is, the WHO would not have endorsed it.
Imagine that- a pesticide that comes with warnings.
Yeah, that sets DDT apart, alright.
| 206 |
wrenchwench Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:13:27pm |
re: #200 researchok
That is a good- a separate argument.
DDT is no -panacea but it is not the health Armageddon it has been made out to be.
It could have been if the alarm had not been sounded.
| 207 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:13:47pm |
We should figure out a way to do to the mosquitoes what we did to some insect--I forget which one.
We breed a total sterile male. A whole bunch. Then you release them.
See?
Maybe we could give the sterile males their own 57 Chevy to increase their chances.
| 208 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:14:32pm |
re: #205 researchok
Yes- and if DDT were the nuclear bomb you say it is, the WHO would not have endorsed it.
Imagine that- a pesticide that comes with warnings.
Yeah, that sets DDT apart, alright.
It didn't endorse it, it approved it. And only for a specific use and only in areas where malaria is epidemic. So yes, the WHO approved it, with a huge BUT tacked at the end.
| 209 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:14:37pm |
re: #206 wrenchwench
We just don't know- and that is all I'm saying.
| 210 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:14:43pm |
re: #205 researchok
Yes- and if DDT were the nuclear bomb you say it is, the WHO would not have endorsed it.
Imagine that- a pesticide that comes with warnings.
Yeah, that sets DDT apart, alright.
The World Health Organization's endorsement is laden with warnings and conditions, and it's very clear that they wished they didn't have to recommend this kind of dangerous chemical.
| 211 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:14:46pm |
re: #203 darthstar
I figured this wouldn't get an answer...that's okay...Romney doesn't have an answer either, which is why he canceled all his TV appearances after bringing Ryan onto the ticket.
I want to talk about the science issues we're discussing now. I don't want this to be a case of "Dark_Falcon says something about Paul Ryan other people don't like, pile-on ensues."
| 212 |
wrenchwench Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:14:54pm |
re: #205 researchok
Yes- and if DDT were the nuclear bomb you say it is, the WHO would not have endorsed it.
Imagine that- a pesticide that comes with warnings.
Yeah, that sets DDT apart, alright.
Seriously, do some more reading. It is persistent in the environment in a very dangerous way.
| 214 |
Obdicut Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:15:24pm |
re: #193 researchok
Right.
That's why the WHO endorsed the use of DDT to fight malaria.
For vector control. Which is what I said all along.
| 215 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:15:35pm |
re: #193 researchok
Right.
That's why the WHO endorsed the use of DDT to fight malaria.
LOL. Go to the primary source, the WHO press release. What does it say:
WHO gives indoor use of DDT a clean bill of health for controlling malaria
WHO promotes indoor spraying with insecticides as one of three main interventions to fight malaria
15 SEPTEMBER 2006 | WASHINGTON, D.C. - Nearly thirty years after phasing out the widespread use of indoor spraying with DDT and other insecticides to control malaria, the World Health Organization (WHO) today announced that this intervention will once again play a major role in its efforts to fight the disease. WHO is now recommending the use of indoor residual spraying (IRS) not only in epidemic areas but also in areas with constant and high malaria transmission, including throughout Africa.
Indoor spraying is exactly what Obdicut was taking about, vector control. It's still banned for agricultural use and only wingnut non-scientiests are recommending it for that.
| 216 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:15:36pm |
We replace the current mosquito diet with nothing by fast food.
They won't last long.
| 217 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:16:01pm |
re: #208 Targetpractice
Yes, No one will interpret that an endorsement.
That's the WHO for you- ignoring global health needs just to publish some esoteric paper.
| 218 |
wrenchwench Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:16:03pm |
re: #209 researchok
We just don't know- and that is all I'm saying.
We know a lot more than you've been led to believe.
| 219 |
jaunte Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:16:12pm |
Evidence for Carcinogenicity:
Evaluation: There is inadequate evidence in humans for the carcinogenicity of DDT. There is sufficient evidence in experimental animals for the carcinogenicity of DDT. Overall evaluation: DDT is possibly carcinogenic to humans (2B).
[IARC. Monographs on the Evaluation of the Carcinogenic Risk of Chemicals to Man. Geneva: World Health Organization, International Agency for Research on Cancer, 1972-PRESENT. (Multivolume work). Available at: [Link: monographs.iarc.fr...] p. 53 234 (1991)] **PEER REVIEWED**DDT: reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen.
| 220 |
dragonath Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:16:37pm |
Of course the WHO is going to approve it in areas that have nothing else. When dealing with something that can kill you now vs. something that will likely kill you in the future, no shit you'll choose the latter.
| 221 |
wrenchwench Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:16:58pm |
re: #213 ac7xc1nx
Welcome, hatchling with excellent taste in music.
| 222 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:17:03pm |
re: #217 researchok
Yes, No one will interpret that an endorsement.
That's the WHO for you- ignoring global health needs just to publish some esoteric paper.
But... I thought the WHO was a super worthwhile trustworthy source full of trust?
Your contradictions are at least spread over multiple posts now, which I guess is progress.
| 223 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:17:08pm |
re: #208 Targetpractice
It didn't endorse it, it approved it. And only for a specific use and only in areas where malaria is epidemic. So yes, the WHO approved it, with a huge BUT tacked at the end.
And they did so because in some places its the only thing that can work within budget. So having the interior of homes in Africa sprayed with DTT poses some risks, but unlike spraying outside those risks are outweighed by the fact that it does provide those homes protection from biting insects.
| 224 |
darthstar Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:17:53pm |
re: #211 Dark_Falcon
Avoid the topic altogether. No worries. I understand completely. Romney's doing the same thing.
| 225 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:17:58pm |
We introduce mosquitoes to the phrase "YOLO" and explain that doing stupid, risky things makes you look cool.
| 227 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:18:32pm |
re: #223 Dark_Falcon
And they did so because in some places its the only thing that can work within budget. So having the interior of homes in Africa sprayed with DTT poses some risks, but unlike spraying outside those risks are outweighed by the fact that it does provide those homes protection from biting insects.
Agreed, the WHO is approving it for limited use indoors, for the purposes of vector control. And considering the number of restrictions and notices included, do so with great reluctance because it is the nuclear bomb they know it to be.
| 228 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:18:35pm |
re: #197 Kragar
Pulled about 6 left over prime ribs bones out of the freezer. Got them simmering in a pot for some beef and barley soup.
I'm jealous. We're having a relatively cool summer but big cooking projects still heat up the house too much in the summer. This is about the time of year I really start to miss cooking. I'm looking forward to fall when I start making stews and baking bread again.
| 229 |
Lidane Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:18:44pm |
I'm still confused how DDT became a topic at all. I almost feel obligated to go and listen to "Big Yellow Taxi" since it's in my head now.
| 230 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:18:55pm |
re: #218 wrenchwench
We know a lot more than you've been led to believe.
Maybe- and I have said, show me where I'm wrong and I'll gladly change my opinions.
I just haven't seen it.
| 231 |
Kragar Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:19:34pm |
re: #228 Killgore Trout
I'm jealous. We're having a relatively cool summer but big cooking projects still heat up the house too much in the summer. This is about the time of year I really start to miss cooking. I'm looking forward to fall when I start making stews and baking bread again.
Its still kind of hot, but we've got to free up some freezer space, so soup it is.
| 232 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:19:35pm |
re: #230 researchok
Maybe- and I have said, show me where I'm wrong and I'll gladly change my opinions.
I just haven't seen it.
If you relied just on the sources that you yourself have posted here tonight, you wouldn't be saying that.
| 233 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:19:37pm |
Does anyone here actually use the phrase "vector control" normally?
Sorry--I'm just seeing it a lot--for the first time.
| 234 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:19:40pm |
re: #229 Lidane
I'm still confused how DDT became a topic at all. I almost feel obligated to go and listen to "Big Yellow Taxi" since it's in my head now.
Subject of scientists not being listened to came up, science not being conclusive about DDT because the subject (somehow).
| 235 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:19:47pm |
re: #221 wrenchwench
Welcome, hatchling with excellent taste in music.
We had a troll kill earlier today on one of Mikey SDCA's threads. A troll called "AngryDude" dropped a turd of a post, got reported, then got clubbed.
I've got the troll's carcass on the grill now, so we'll be able to go ahead with a Troll-B-Q tonight.
| 236 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:20:19pm |
re: #235 Dark_Falcon
We had a troll kill earlier today on one of Mikey SDCA's threads. A troll called "AngryDude" dropped a turd of a post, got reported, then got clubbed.
I've got the troll's carcass on the grill now, so we'll be able to go ahead with a Troll-B-Q tonight.
So that's what that smell was. Figured one of the cats puked on the carpet yet again.
| 237 |
Kragar Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:20:21pm |
Which reminds me, its time to pull out the bones and slice the beef.
| 238 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:21:00pm |
re: #229 Lidane
I'm still confused how DDT became a topic at all. I almost feel obligated to go and listen to "Big Yellow Taxi" since it's in my head now.
Allow me:
| 239 |
prairiefire Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:21:12pm |
Good job, Mr. Cooder! I hope to hear from more artists regarding their opinions this election cycle. A counter to the bean counters.
| 240 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:21:30pm |
re: #222 erik_t
Sorry- that should have ended with sarc tag.
DDT is not a perfect solution but it is not the devil in a canister.
If it was the WHO would not have approved it's use.
| 241 |
wrenchwench Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:21:40pm |
re: #235 Dark_Falcon
We had a troll kill earlier today on one of Mikey SDCA's threads. A troll called "AngryDude" dropped a turd of a post, got reported, then got clubbed.
I've got the troll's carcass on the grill now, so we'll be able to go ahead with a Troll-B-Q tonight.
I'll have some gamey-buttock cold cuts tomorrow. I gotta go home now.
Later, lizards.
| 242 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:21:41pm |
Hell, characterization of DDT might be better as a neutron bomb, namely that it doesn't kill the buildings (humans) outright, it leaves them mostly intact while just killing everything else (environment).
| 243 |
Obdicut Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:22:00pm |
re: #226 researchok
LOLOL
What? Did you somehow miss me talking about vector control?
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
How'd you manage that?
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 244 |
ozbloke Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:22:34pm |
| 245 |
dragonath Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:23:19pm |
Why is this a being debated again? Are we a third world country? I'm sure some fucker probably wants to sell it here again. Why else would wingnuts love the stuff.
| 246 |
prairiefire Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:23:35pm |
re: #228 Killgore Trout
I'm jealous. We're having a relatively cool summer but big cooking projects still heat up the house too much in the summer. This is about the time of year I really start to miss cooking. I'm looking forward to fall when I start making stews and baking bread again.
This summer in the parched mid-west has been a challenge! I have definitely made more microwave meals courtesy of Stouffer's this summer.
| 247 |
MittDoesNotCompute Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:23:46pm |
| 248 |
Kragar Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:24:03pm |
Cooking secret: For soups, use turnips. They end up tasting like potatoes, but stay firm as opposed to disintegrating into starch.
| 249 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:24:18pm |
re: #245 Fred Galt
Why is this a being debated again? Are we a third world country? I'm sure some fucker probably wants to sell it here again. Why else would wingnuts love the stuff.
BigAgro wants it in a bad way, because the alternatives are more pricey. Disease control is not a major reason for the push to have DDT made legal again in the US, its usage as a general insecticide is.
| 250 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:24:29pm |
re: #244 ozbloke
Sorry, but this was the one I needed.
[Embedded content]
I thought that likely, but I listened to the Counting Crows version first, so theirs will always be my version of the song.
| 251 |
darthstar Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:24:34pm |
re: #237 Kragar
Which reminds me, its time to pull out the bones and slice the beef.
I'm grilling shrimp and scallops with pineapple and hot peppers, and have an arugula (SOCIALISM!) salad and gazpacho for sides.
| 252 |
prairiefire Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:24:45pm |
re: #242 Targetpractice
I would not be debating DDT against a bed bug infestation.
| 253 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:25:24pm |
re: #252 prairiefire
I would not be debating DDT against a bed bug infestation.
Nah, those you kill with fire.
//
| 254 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:25:41pm |
re: #246 prairiefire
This summer in the parched mid-west has been a challenge! I have definitely made more microwave meals courtesy of Stouffer's this summer.
The good news here is Illinois is that rain has come back in time to save much of the soybean crop. Too late to save the corn, though.
| 255 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:27:53pm |
re: #251 darthstar
I'm grilling shrimp and scallops with pineapple and hot peppers, and have an arugula (SOCIALISM!) salad and gazpacho for sides.
The troll is served! Those who want drink orders, place 'em now.
And darthstar, I set this small section of Gamey Buttocks aside for you and cut it into cubes. It will go well on you salad. Here you go... [slides plate down to darthstar]
| 256 |
dragonath Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:28:19pm |
There's too many damn birdwatchers! Time to deploy the DDT!
| 257 |
ozbloke Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:28:59pm |
OT:
I got to meet Frank Vignola and Vinnie Raniolo on friday, a couple of nice guys and extreme talent out of New York, they were here in Oz touring with Tommy Emmanuel.
Thank you New York, for letting them come and play.
| 258 |
prairiefire Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:32:23pm |
re: #254 Dark_Falcon
Yes, it's too late for the corn and we will be paying the higher prices.
We finally had a break in the weather yesterday. So nice to step outside and not be reminded of Hell on Earth.
| 259 |
darthstar Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:32:44pm |
re: #255 Dark_Falcon
The troll is served! Those who want drink orders, place 'em now.
And darthstar, I set this small section of Gamey Buttocks aside for you and cut it into cubes. It will go well on you salad. Here you go... [slides plate down to darthstar]
I always get stuck with the ass.
| 261 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:34:29pm |
re: #259 darthstar
I always get stuck with the ass.
Gamey Buttocks has always been regarded as the best part of the troll or morlock. So much so that portion of said buttocks is always set aside for Charles.
| 262 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:34:58pm |
re: #248 Kragar
Cooking secret: For soups, use turnips. They end up tasting like potatoes, but stay firm as opposed to disintegrating into starch.
I'm probably the only person under 60 who loves parsnips. Throw some of them in there too.
| 264 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:35:15pm |
re: #260 erik_t
So, yeah, taxes on the rich. How do they work?
Well, since the rich usually aren't stupid, and since they can hire a lot of tax accountants and lobbyists, they almost never pay the amount that the government says the rich should pay.
| 265 |
Gus Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:35:26pm |
From Rachel Carson - Criticisms of environmentalism and DDT restrictions:
...Biographer Mark Hamilton Lytle believes these estimates unrealistic, even assuming that Carson can be "blamed" for worldwide DDT policies.[78] John Quiggin and Tim Lambert have written that "the most striking feature of the claim against Carson is the ease with which it can be refuted." DDT was never banned for anti-malarial use,[79] (its ban for agricultural use in the United States in 1972 did not apply outside the US or to anti-malaria spraying;[80] the international treaty that banned most uses of DDT and other organochlorine pesticides — the 2001 Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants — included an exemption for DDT for the use of malaria control until affordable substitutes could be found.[73]) Mass outdoor spraying of DDT was abandoned in poor countries subject to malaria, such as Sri Lanka, in the 1970s and 1980s, not because of government prohibitions, but because the DDT had lost its ability to kill the mosquitoes.[73] (Because of insects very short breeding cycle and large number of offspring, the most resistant insects that survive and pass on their genetic traits to their offspring replace the pesticide-slain insects relatively rapidly. Agricultural spraying of pesticides produces resistance to the pesticide in seven to ten years.[81])
Other defenders point out Carson never actually called for an outright ban on DDT, and part of the argument she made in Silent Spring was that even if DDT and other insecticides had no environmental side effects, their indiscriminate overuse was counter-productive because it would created insect resistance to the pesticide(s), making them (the pesticides) useless in eliminating the target insect populations:
No responsible person contends that insect-borne disease should be ignored. The question that has now urgently presented itself is whether it is either wise or responsible to attack the problem by methods that are rapidly making it worse. The world has heard much of the triumphant war against disease through the control of insect vectors of infection, but it has heard little of the other side of the story—the defeats, the short-lived triumphs that now strongly support the alarming view that the insect enemy has been made actually stronger by our efforts. Even worse, we may have destroyed our very means of fighting.
| 267 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:35:36pm |
re: #258 prairiefire
Yes, it's too late for the corn and we will be paying the higher prices.
We finally had a break in the weather yesterday. So nice to step outside and not be reminded of Hell on Earth.
We seriously need to suspend ethanol production for a time, to bring down prices.
| 268 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:36:04pm |
re: #262 Killgore Trout
I'm probably the only person under 60 who loves parsnips. Throw some of them in there too.
Nah, I like 'em too, and I'm not even forty.
| 269 |
Gus Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:36:10pm |
re: #265 Gus
From Rachel Carson - Criticisms of environmentalism and DDT restrictions:
...
Carson further noted that "Malaria programmes are threatened by resistance among mosquitoes"[83] and emphasized the advice given by the director of Holland's Plant Protection Service: "Practical advice should be 'Spray as little as you possibly can' rather than 'Spray to the limit of your capacity'…Pressure on the pest population should always be as slight as possible."[84]
Consequently, some experts have argued that restrictions placed on the agricultural use of DDT have increased its effectiveness as a tool for battling malaria. According to pro-DDT advocate Amir Attaran the result of the 2004 Stockholm Convention banning DDT's use in agriculture "is arguably better than the status quo ... For the first time, there is now an insecticide which is restricted to vector control only, meaning that the selection of resistant mosquitoes will be slower than before."[85] But though Carson's legacy has been closely tied to DDT, Roger Bate of the DDT advocacy organization Africa Fighting Malaria warns that "A lot of people have used Carson to push their own agendas. We just have to be a little careful when you're talking about someone who died in 1964."
| 270 |
Big Joe Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:36:11pm |
re: #248 Kragar
Cooking secret: For soups, use turnips. They end up tasting like potatoes, but stay firm as opposed to disintegrating into starch.
Parsnips, turnips and rutabega!
| 271 |
The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:36:52pm |
Maybe- and I have said, show me where I'm wrong and I'll gladly change my opinions.I just haven't seen it.
You know what, it's amazing rude that you keep demanding stuff of other people and you have put up zero, nothing, nada, to sustain your own position.
All you've done is repeat a canard about how the DDT ban caused a resurgence of malaria, unsupported. I can a least cite an actual entomologist saying this:
What people aren't remembering about the history of DDT is that, in many places, it failed to eradicate malaria not because of environmentalist restrictions on its use but because it simply stopped working. Insects have a phenomenal capacity to adapt to new poisons; anything that kills a large proportion of a population ends up changing the insects' genetic composition so as to favor those few individuals that manage to survive due to random mutation. In the continued presence of the insecticide, susceptible populations can be rapidly replaced by resistant ones. Though widespread use of DDT didn't begin until WWII, there were resistant houseflies in Europe by 1947, and by 1949, DDT-resistant mosquitoes were documented on two continents.
By 1972, when the U.S. DDT ban went into effect, 19 species of mosquitoes capable of transmitting malaria, including some in Africa, were resistant to DDT. Genes for DDT resistance can persist in populations for decades. Spraying DDT on the interior walls of houses -- the form of chemical use advocated as the solution to Africa's malaria problem -- led to the evolution of resistance 40 years ago and will almost certainly lead to it again in many places unless resistance monitoring and management strategies are put into place.
In fact, pockets of resistance to DDT in some mosquito species in Africa are already well documented. There are strains of mosquitoes that can metabolize DDT into harmless byproducts and mosquitoes whose nervous systems are immune to DDT. There are even mosquitoes who avoid the toxic effects of DDT by resting between meals not on the interior walls of houses, where chemicals are sprayed, but on the exterior walls, where they don't encounter the chemical at all.
The truth is that DDT is neither superhero nor supervillain -- it's just a tool. And if entomologists have learned anything in the last half-century of dealing with the million-plus species of insects in the world, it's that there is no such thing as an all-purpose weapon when it comes to pest management. DDT may be useful in controlling malaria in some places in Africa, but it's essential to determine whether target populations are resistant; if they are, then no amount of DDT will be effective.
Your position? Not supported by anything. You just chucked out a well-worn line about blah-blah environmentalists no DDT millions died.
Also, you did this:
Right.
So it was OK Malaria deaths skyrocketed.
Which is just fucking cowardly.
But then again, this entire discussion of the "I make the assertion, demand everyone else prove me wrong, and then I move the goalpost" type.
| 272 |
freetoken Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:37:10pm |
Regarding RealClearScience - I tend to avoid it during my daily science news feed. While they do have links to so called main stream science journalism outlets, their own articles often have an ideological slant that I label "glibertarian magic". That applies to, say, their author Alex B. Berezow in many of his articles on ecology.
The understanding is just too shallow to be educational. Berezow's essays, for example, tend to be summaries of other people's writings, or some nebulous opinion of his own (not gleaned from original research.)
I stick with the real scientists.
| 273 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:37:15pm |
| 274 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:37:24pm |
The DDT issue is one of the many scientific issues that convinced me to renounce the right -- it's all part of the right's very clear pattern of promoting ignorance for the sake of profit.
| 275 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:37:46pm |
re: #207 Mostly sane, most of the time.
We should figure out a way to do to the mosquitoes what we did to some insect--I forget which one.
We breed a total sterile male. A whole bunch. Then you release them.
See?
Maybe we could give the sterile males their own 57 Chevy to increase their chances.
Make that a '63 XKE and we'll talk.
| 276 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:38:14pm |
Tomatillos have to be my new favorite summer veg. I like them in a "Greek" Salad (tomatillos, peppers, feta, olives, onion, garlic). They're so prolific I can barely keep up with them. In the fall I'll have to cook the rest of them up into something. I'm thinking tomatillo curry of some sort.
| 277 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:39:51pm |
re: #276 Killgore Trout
Tomatillos have to be my new favorite summer veg. I like them in a "Greek" Salad (tomatillos, peppers, feta, olives, onion, garlic). They're so prolific I can barely keep up with them. In the fall I'll have to cook the rest of them up into something. I'm thinking tomatillo curry of some sort.
Those are the things that look like peppers that Free Market Baby Jesus forgot to take the wrapper off of, right?
What the hell do you do with them?
| 278 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:40:58pm |
re: #271 The Ghost of a Flea
How about this?
American Council on Science and Health
THE DDT BAN TURNS 30 — Millions Dead of Malaria Because of Ban, More Deaths Likely
| 280 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:42:09pm |
re: #277 erik_t
Those are the things that look like peppers that Free Market Baby Jesus forgot to take the wrapper off of, right?
What the hell do you do with them?
Dude, eat them raw, they're really strange. Each one tastes a little different than the next and the flavor changes as you eat it. First veggy, then earthy, then savory. They are really odd little things.
| 281 |
Gus Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:43:29pm |
re: #278 researchok
How about this?
American Council on Science and Health
THE DDT BAN TURNS 30 — Millions Dead of Malaria Because of Ban, More Deaths Likely
ABC News' John Stossel was the master of ceremonies at ACSH's 25th anniversary dinner on December 4, 2000.
| 282 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:43:35pm |
re: #278 researchok
How about this?
American Council on Science and Health
THE DDT BAN TURNS 30 — Millions Dead of Malaria Because of Ban, More Deaths Likely
"On the May 14, 2009 episode of the satirical late night show The Daily Show, correspondent Samantha Bee noted the ACSH's opposition to the Obama family's organic garden and the organization's funding by the petroleum, chemical, and pharmaceutical industries.[22]"
| 284 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:43:43pm |
| 285 |
PhillyPretzel Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:43:47pm |
re: #280 Killgore Trout
They are supposed be good when roasted. Check out Cooks Illustrated; they may have some recipes.
| 286 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:44:10pm |
From Harvard's Center for International Development
| 287 |
jaunte Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:44:26pm |
re: #284 Killgore Trout
This is bad. I've already had dinner and I'm making myself hungry again.
| 288 |
Gus Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:44:51pm |
American Council on Science and Health
The American Council on Science and Health (ACSH) describes itself as "a consumer education consortium concerned with issues related to food, nutrition, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, lifestyle, the environment and health." At one time the web site stated, "ACSH is an independent, nonprofit, tax-exempt organization. The nucleus of ACSH is a board of 350 physicians, scientists and policy advisors - experts in a wide variety of fields - who review the Council's reports and participate in ACSH seminars, press conferences, media communications and other educational activities." Currently that statement is changed to read, "ACSH is a national, non-profit, tax-exempt 501(c)(3) consumer health education and advocacy organization based in New York City." Note that the word "independent" no longer appears in the description.[1]
To its credit, it has taken a strong public position against the dangers of tobacco, one of the leading preventable causes of death in today's society. However, it takes a generally apologetic stance regarding virtually every other health and environmental hazard produced by modern industry, accepting corporate funding from Coca-Cola, Kellogg, General Mills, Pepsico, and the American Beverage Association, among others...
| 289 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:45:05pm |
| 290 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:45:17pm |
re: #277 erik_t
Those are the things that look like peppers that Free Market Baby Jesus forgot to take the wrapper off of, right?
What the hell do you do with them?
Salsa. A little pepper, a little corn, a little cilantro & a bunch of tomilitos in the blender to rough chop em up.
| 291 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:45:23pm |
| 292 |
The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:45:28pm |
re: #276 Killgore Trout
Tomatillos have to be my new favorite summer veg. I like them in a "Greek" Salad (tomatillos, peppers, feta, olives, onion, garlic). They're so prolific I can barely keep up with them. In the fall I'll have to cook the rest of them up into something. I'm thinking tomatillo curry of some sort.
I've seen tomatillos mentioned in Indian cookbooks before as a substitute for some sour regional fruit/vegetable.
There's certainly a bunch of chutney and curry recipes around if you do a web search.
| 293 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:45:59pm |
re: #290 William Barnett-Lewis
Salsa. A little pepper, a little corn, a little cilantro & a bunch of tomilitos in the blender to rough chop em up.
Throw in a big bone, a couple potatoes... baby, you've got a stew going!
| 294 |
Lidane Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:46:24pm |
Posted by a friend of mine on FB:
Paul Ryan: I find it very surprising a person with 2 first names of men happily joined together to make one full name for the rest of his life opposes gay marriage.
| 296 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:47:56pm |
| 297 |
The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:48:02pm |
re: #278 researchok
How about this?
American Council on Science and Health
THE DDT BAN TURNS 30 — Millions Dead of Malaria Because of Ban, More Deaths Likely
Industry flacks. No scientists.
Also note at the bottom:
is report is based on:
When Politics Kills: Malaria and the DDT Story by Richard Tren and Roger Bate, Competitive Enterprise Institute
Toxic Terror by Elizabeth Whelan, Prometheus Books
You know...the guy I mentioned a bunch of posts ago?
| 298 |
prairiefire Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:48:04pm |
re: #267 Dark_Falcon
We seriously need to suspend ethanol production for a time, to bring down prices.
I agree. I can easily see 70% support for this measure. The cattle are overheated and stressed. When we were in Kansas on Monday, they were stacked three deep on top of each other under the shade of any tree they could find.
The soybeans still looked ok, but this was a corn field year (they rotate).
| 299 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:48:24pm |
re: #292 The Ghost of a Flea
I've seen tomatillos mentioned in Indian cookbooks before as a substitute for some sour regional fruit/vegetable.
There's certainly a bunch of chutney and curry recipes around if you do a web search.
I like the chutney idea. I've also become very fond of Fennugreek lately too. I bet a Tomatillo/fenugreek chutney would be awesome.
| 300 |
Gus Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:49:17pm |
re: #297 The Ghost of a Flea
Industry flacks. No scientists.
Also note at the bottom:
You know...the guy I mentioned a bunch of posts ago?
| 301 |
freetoken Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:49:49pm |
Let me expand on my last comment:
There is science, then there is pseudo-science, and then there is "journalism".
The telling thing about RealClearScience is what they don't do. Namely, they don't peruse the actual science literature - the thousands of journals published worldwide by the various professional bodies of scientists, or the private publishers attempting to serve the scientific community - but rather they run links to other popular media/online outlets.
IOW, they are link aggregator of other website's productions and make their money off of web hits.
That's why they can run articles covering a proposition by S. Fred Singer without critical analysis - because they don't have people who can actually give critical analysis.
| 302 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:50:19pm |
re: #297 The Ghost of a Flea
From Harvard's Center for International Development
Are they hacks. too?
| 303 |
MittDoesNotCompute Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:51:12pm |
re: #278 researchok
How about this?
American Council on Science and Health
THE DDT BAN TURNS 30 — Millions Dead of Malaria Because of Ban, More Deaths Likely
Taking a industry shill group at their word? Preposterous!
/oy vey...
| 304 |
Gus Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:51:18pm |
Global Climate Change and Human Health
A Position Paper of The American Council on Science and Health
By Sidney Shindell, M.D., LL.B., Jack Raso, M.S., R.D.
| 305 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:51:23pm |
| 306 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:51:44pm |
re: #301 freetoken
Let me expand on my last comment:
There is science, then there is pseudo-science, and then there is "journalism".
The telling thing about RealClearScience is what they don't do. Namely, they don't peruse the actual science literature - the thousands of journals published worldwide by the various professional bodies of scientists, or the private publishers attempting to serve the scientific community - but rather they run links to other popular media/online outlets.
IOW, they are link aggregator of other website's productions and make their money off of web hits.
That's why they can run articles covering a proposition by S. Fred Singer without critical analysis - because they don't have people who can actually give critical analysis.
Exactly right. It's a right wing propaganda outlet, masquerading as a science news site.
| 307 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:51:59pm |
re: #278 researchok
How about this?
American Council on Science and Health
THE DDT BAN TURNS 30 — Millions Dead of Malaria Because of Ban, More Deaths Likely
re: #286 researchok
From Harvard's Center for International Development
And both of your sources make the same point that the WHO did in its approval of the use of DDT to address malarial epidemics: That it's most effective when used in small amounts and when used to treat indoor spaces. It's when you dump the stuff in the environment by the ton that it loses effectiveness, which was the method used prior to Silent Spring being published.
| 308 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:52:01pm |
re: #286 researchok
From Harvard's Center for International Development
You do understand the difference between indoor and agricultural use, right? From your article:
Agricultural ban: While DDT was being employed in the fight against malaria, farmers were also dusting crops with mountainous quantities of the stuff to kill insect pests. This posed a potential environmental threat, for traces of DDT were soon found in the fat tissues of every living thing from humans to polar bears and albatrosses. Concern also mounted when it appeared that DDT might be responsible for the decline of several, bird species. The United States banned the agricultural use of DDT in 1972 and most developed countries did the same.
DDT is still used in some 26 countries for malaria control. The amounts needed are dramatically less than in agriculture. It might take a ton or more DDT to dust a small cotton field, whereas it takes only two grams per square metre to treat the inside walls of a house. The DDT put on 1000 acres of cotton during a single growing season, for instance, would have protected a whole country like Guyana from malaria for a year.
| 309 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:53:06pm |
re: #302 researchok
From Harvard's Center for International Development
Are they hacks. too?
I don't think you understand your sources, as they're almost universally limited their advocacy to indoor vector control use.
| 310 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:53:33pm |
re: #302 researchok
From Harvard's Center for International Development
Are they hacks. too?
Christ, I'm tired of reading sources that you don't bother to read.
The position is that DDT should not be subject to a full and complete ban. Which nobody here has advocated. It is not saying that existing bans should end.
| 312 |
Kragar Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:53:48pm |
re: #262 Killgore Trout
I'm probably the only person under 60 who loves parsnips. Throw some of them in there too.
Don't have any handy.
| 313 |
MittDoesNotCompute Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:54:18pm |
re: #286 researchok
From Harvard's Center for International Development
Listen to the words that are coming out of my fingers: DDT hasn't been and won't be banned for anti-malarial uses any time soon; which is all that (12-year old) open letter asked.
Nice try, but you still lose...try again.
| 314 |
The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:54:22pm |
re: #299 Killgore Trout
I like the chutney idea. I've also become very fond of Fennugreek lately too. I bet a Tomatillo/fenugreek chutney would be awesome.
Fenugreek greens are great. Really good with cheese and dairy. I've even made pasta sauce with them one time (cream, fenugreek, farmer's cheese, green chili pounded to a paste). Never used them in a chutney before. If you try it, tell me your impressions.
| 316 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:55:31pm |
re: #313 TedStriker
So, exactly how many documented deaths have been attributed to DDT?
| 317 |
dragonath Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:55:32pm |
By golly, the government will never take away my right to use Carbon Tetrachloride! Those ingrates!
| 318 |
Big Joe Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:55:41pm |
re: #305 researchok
Yes, I stand corrected.
They cannot be deemed reliable.
That's the problem. If they support your position on DDT it's very likely (say 99%) they are hacks.
| 319 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:56:29pm |
re: #310 erik_t
Same question, before you exhaust yourself:
Exactly how many documented deaths have been attributed to DDT?
| 320 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:56:30pm |
re: #298 prairiefire
I agree. I can easily see 70% support for this measure. The cattle are overheated and stressed. When we were in Kansas on Monday, they were stacked three deep on top of each other under the shade of any tree they could find.
The soybeans still looked ok, but this was a corn field year (they rotate).
Hopefully they'll have enough relief now. Many of them won't be marketable for some time, even so. Feed prices are so high that ranchers won't be able to fatten them up. It's actually animal feed that is the biggest price drop shutting down ethanol production would bring.
Archer-Daniels Midland would hate the idea, but I have an idea: the shutdown should be accompanied by the federal government covering the salaries of all employees whose jobs would be lot due to the shutdown, on condition that ADM not lay them off. I would also give ADM some direct aid to keep it going, though that aid would be conditional on a policy of 'no bonuses for C-level executives till the crisis ends'.
That last will be seen as "Obama-like", but what of it? He's right if he says the voters would not like the appearance of government aid going out to executives as bonuses.
| 322 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:56:54pm |
What could be more American or more scientific than a group called "The American Council on Science and Health"? Especially if it's a non-profit? We'll be attacking the American Family Association next.
| 323 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:57:12pm |
There is no ban on the antimalarial usage of DDT. The only ban is on agricultural usage of DDT, which BigAgro wants overturned because the next available alternative is pricier. It's like pumping cows full of antibiotics, they want to use DDT because its shockingly effective as an insecticide for at least the first few years after its introduced into the environment.
| 324 |
freetoken Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:57:17pm |
re: #306 Charles Johnson
Exactly right. It's a right wing propaganda outlet, masquerading as a science news site.
At this point I think they've degenerated into just a link pusher. Their selection process for "articles" appears to be: if it is anything sciencey then post it. Very uncritical, and lacking any signs of actual thinking on the part of whoever is the editor.
They appear to be manifesting into an example of postmodern website - there is no objective reality, only links to ideas.
| 325 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:58:00pm |
re: #311 researchok
Yes.
Then you acknowledge the clear threat DDT poses to the environment in large scale agricultural applications?
| 326 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 6:58:01pm |
re: #318 Big Joe
This all started with a single question I posed- Exactly how many deaths can be attributed to DDT?
| 327 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:00:02pm |
re: #315 researchok
LOLOL
Imitating an infant on the internet is no way to go through life. If you think you're winning an argument, state why. Acting like a dismissive asshole just makes you look like a dismissive asshole.
| 328 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:00:07pm |
re: #325 goddamnedfrank
Yes- I never argued against that.
My questions/positions were related to the anti malarial ban of DDT.
As Gus pointed out, even Rachel Carson never called for that.
| 329 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:00:12pm |
re: #326 researchok
This all started with a single question I posed- Exactly how many deaths can be attributed to DDT?
How many died due to the decreased effectiveness of DDT due to years of carpet bombing the environment with it?
| 330 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:00:35pm |
re: #327 goddamnedfrank
Exactly how many human deaths can be attributed to DDT?
| 331 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:01:25pm |
re: #326 researchok
This all started with a single question I posed- Exactly how many deaths can be attributed to DDT?
I don't know of any. But that doesn't mean we should use it outdoors in the US. Here in Cook county we've got our first nesting pair of bald eagles in decades. I'd like their nesting along the rivers here in Chicagoland to be a trend, and using DDT outdoors would prevent that from happening.
| 332 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:02:04pm |
re: #316 researchok
INT. HOSPITAL MORGUE, NIGHT SHIFT
DOCTOR FRANK LEANS OVER CORPSE, SIGHS
NURSE GLENDA: What's wrong, Dr. Frank?
DOCTOR FRANK: It's all these damned DDT deaths, Glenda. I don't know how we never caught it before. Just look at all of these bodies. Read the tags.
DOCTOR FRANK: Here's one right here. Cause of death: DDT overdose. Here's another. DDT overdose. DDT overdose. Hell, Glenda, I'll bet you five bucks the next one says the same thing.
NURSE GLENDA: You're on, Doctor.
DOCTOR FRANK GRUMBLES
DOCTOR FRANK: Looks like lady luck is on your side tonight. Says here the blood leaked out.
NURSE GLENDA: From what?
DOCTOR FRANK: What am I, psychic?
| 333 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:02:05pm |
re: #326 researchok
This all started with a single question I posed- Exactly how many deaths can be attributed to DDT?
Which is an especially wingnutty, dickish question. It deliberately ignores the environmental damage done by DDT and conflates the agricultural ban with a non-existent total ban. The question itself is designed not to be conducive to dialog.
| 334 |
The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:02:09pm |
re: #316 researchok
So, exactly how many documented deaths have been attributed to DDT?
How many people in areas soaked with DDT died of breast or thyroid cancers that DDT has now been linked with?
| 335 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:02:18pm |
re: #329 Targetpractice
How many died due to the decreased effectiveness of DDT due to years of carpet bombing the environment with it?
No idea.
Do you have that number?
| 337 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:03:03pm |
re: #334 The Ghost of a Flea
Do you have that number?
| 338 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:03:10pm |
re: #335 researchok
No idea.
Do you have that number?
Do you acknowledge that mosquitoes can develop a resistance to DDT, yes or no?
| 339 |
ozbloke Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:03:16pm |
re: #319 researchok
Same question, before you exhaust yourself:
Exactly how many documented deaths have been attributed to DDT?
Is that the only important issue?
Sounds more like a talking point, sorry.
| 340 |
dragonath Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:03:33pm |
This is getting stupid. Leaded gasoline is still used in Angola, and the life expectancy is 50 years, but hey, it never killed anyone!
| 341 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:03:40pm |
re: #333 goddamnedfrank
I never talked about the agricultural ban.
| 342 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:04:38pm |
re: #338 Targetpractice
Yes, of course.
But many drugs/agents lose efficacy over time.
Does that mean they should never be used?
| 343 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:05:36pm |
re: #336 Decatur Deb
Thug birds.
You hate our national bird?! Then that means you're not a Real American!!1 You must be one of those dove-loving Progressives!!1
//
| 344 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:05:46pm |
re: #342 researchok
Yes, of course.
But many drugs/agents lose efficacy over time.
Does that mean they should never be used?
No, it means that their usage should be limited and targeted, such that the effectiveness is maintained while the risk of total resistance is avoided.
That's what the WHO has called for, that's what the authors of your articles acknowledged is the best approach.
| 345 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:06:53pm |
re: #339 ozbloke
Yes, it is,
Because I never talked about the DDT agricultural ban, only the usage to fight malaria
| 347 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:08:05pm |
re: #314 The Ghost of a Flea
Fenugreek greens are great. Really good with cheese and dairy. I've even made pasta sauce with them one time (cream, fenugreek, farmer's cheese, green chili pounded to a paste). Never used them in a chutney before. If you try it, tell me your impressions.
I've been growing it for a few years but only used the seeds. I only recently discovered the leaves are edible. I'll let you know how the chutney turns out.
| 348 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:08:29pm |
re: #331 Dark_Falcon
I don't know of any. But that doesn't mean we should use it outdoors in the US. Here in Cook county we've got our first nesting pair of bald eagles in decades. I'd like their nesting along the rivers here in Chicagoland to be a trend, and using DDT outdoors would prevent that from happening.
If nothing else, the eagles I meantioned have been doing their part to help keep asian carp out of the Great Lakes: They catch said carp from the Sanitary and Ship Canal and feed the fish to their eaglets. Result: More eagles, less carp.
| 349 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:08:33pm |
re: #341 researchok
I never talked about the agricultural ban.
Well then what ban are you talking about below?
re: #108 researchok
The call was for a global ban- and in fact, DDT was banned in many countries and as a result, malaria deaths skyrocketed.
You even emphasized it, global ban. We know it there was never a worldwide ban on indoor use, so ...
| 350 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:09:23pm |
re: #344 Targetpractice
In fact, I agree with you.
My issue is that the ban (as in fighting malaria) for decades has been a tragedy.
| 351 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:10:26pm |
re: #349 goddamnedfrank
Yes, that is why I made the reference to malaria.
I should have been more clear. My apologies.
| 352 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:10:57pm |
re: #350 researchok
In fact, I agree with you.
My issue is that the ban (as in fighting malaria) for decades has been a tragedy.
There is no ban on its usage for fighting malaria. Or, at least there is none that is more widespread than the borders of any one nation. There is a global ban on its usage in agriculture, but that's primarily because farmers were dumping it by the ton into the environment, when tests were showing the local insect populations were already developing a resistance to it.
| 353 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:12:47pm |
re: #352 Targetpractice
Unfortunately, many nations did not used DDT at all, even to fight malaria.
| 355 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:14:04pm |
re: #353 researchok
Unfortunately, many nations did not used DDT at all, even to fight malaria.
And that's not the result of a ban, that's the result of market pressures. When the US stopped using it agriculturally, the big chemical companies stopped producing it in large quantities. That meant that many other nations that relied upon the US chemical companies for their cheap supply either had to fight for what was produced or go without.
| 356 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:15:32pm |
re: #350 researchok
In fact, I agree with you.
My issue is that the ban (as in fighting malaria) for decades has been a tragedy.
The problem has really been, not that DDT itself was banned, but instead that Western aid organizations (both governmental and NGOs) refused to fund the use of DDT and in many cases threatened to pull their funds if it was used. But that is less about science and more about imagery, spinning of same, and domestic politics.
| 357 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:16:43pm |
re: #355 Targetpractice
Any way you cut it, there was a lot of pressure not to use DDT for aqny reason.
See Gus's link about Carson (I'm paraphrasing here) in which she denotes it was never her intention to ban DDT entirely, certainly not in areas where it could effectively be used to fight malaria.
| 358 |
Only The Lurker Knows Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:18:07pm |
| 359 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:18:09pm |
re: #354 Gus
I read recently upwards of a million people a year die of malaria.
| 361 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:19:17pm |
re: #357 researchok
Any way you cut it, there was a lot of pressure not to use DDT for aqny reason.
See Gus's link about Carson (I'm paraphrasing here) in which she denotes it was never her intention to ban DDT entirely, certainly not in areas where it could effectively be used to fight malaria.
The problem is, as we see so often with famous leaders, that too many people only know of RACHEL CARSON!!1. They do not know the Rachel Carson and what she said and believed, all they know is the legend.
| 363 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:21:00pm |
| 364 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:21:10pm |
re: #360 Gus
Breathtaking- and not in a good way.
| 365 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:21:21pm |
re: #357 researchok
Any way you cut it, there was a lot of pressure not to use DDT for aqny reason.
See Gus's link about Carson (I'm paraphrasing here) in which she denotes it was never her intention to ban DDT entirely, certainly not in areas where it could effectively be used to fight malaria.
And like I said above, Sinclair's intention with The Jungle was to call attention to the world of the poor in America and how big corporations were grinding them down in the search of the almighty dollar. What America got out of it instead was a call for cleanliness and safety in slaughterhouses and meat packing plants, as well as a push for purity in food and drugs. He famously opined "I aimed at the public's heart, and by accident I hit it in the stomach."
Carson was calling attention to the environmental damage that was being done, largely thought to be due to the overuse of DDT by farmers, and the potential long term harm it was doing to humans. Science has demonstrated that DDT it not immediately harmful, but it builds up in our systems and may be the cause of long-term problems.
| 366 |
Interesting Times Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:21:44pm |
| 367 |
The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:23:02pm |
re: #350 researchok
In fact, I agree with you.
My issue is that the ban (as in fighting malaria) for decades has been a tragedy.
You haven't supported the claim the ban on DDT was what caused the upsurge in malaria cases, as opposed to resistance amongst carrier insects and/or demographic growth in malarial areas. You've taken it as axiomatic.
Even if it turns out to be true, you haven't done any legwork to present a case for your own position. You've just accepted it as true, and then been quite rude and insistent that everyone else prove you wrong.
I was about to direct you to the same post the Gus just linked to.
I’ve already shown that DDT was, and is, still being sprayed long after the 1970′s US ban. Using DDT did work to eradicate malaria in several countries—the incidence of malaria in parts of Central America and Taiwan decreased dramatically, and was completely eliminated in the US.
---
So, what made DDT fail as a control in Africa, since we still have malaria there? Was it the reduction of sprays in the 1970’s? If DDT spraying had continued, would malaria have been eradicated?
There were many reasons that past DDT spraying programs failed.
There isn’t only ONE kind of malarial parasite (Plasmodium).
There isn’t only ONE species of malaria vector (insect that transmits the disease).
And certainly, there is not just ONE kind of ecosystem in which birds, mammals (including people) and malaria interact.
Each system is different, and that is part of why DDT sprays worked in some places, and not others.
Your premise isn't automatically true, and in the void of evidence you give for it I feel no obligation to accept your terms of how this argument functions, such that everything can be reduced to DDT's butcher's bill versus that of malaria. It's a false, and unscientific comparison.
| 368 |
Gus Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:23:47pm |
re: #364 researchok
Breathtaking- and not i a good way.
Seems like a rather complicated issue. From what I've read so far though if DDT use was widespread it would not have been effective by this time. In fact it's curtailment has allowed it to remain effective. There are other mitigation techniques such as simple netting.
| 369 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:24:00pm |
re: #365 Targetpractice
Again, I never discussed the agricultural ban.
My issue was- and remains- the malaria issues
| 370 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:25:35pm |
re: #369 researchok
Again, I never discussed the agricultural ban.
My issue was- and remains- the malaria issues
And as I and others have said, there is no such ban. There are market pressures, both overt as well as covert, to cut the usage of DDT. But it is still legal to use for the purposes of handling malarial outbreaks.
| 371 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:26:31pm |
re: #365 Targetpractice
And like I said above, Sinclair's intention with The Jungle was to call attention to the world of the poor in America and how big corporations were grinding them down in the search of the almighty dollar. What America got out of it instead was a call for cleanliness and safety in slaughterhouses and meat packing plants, as well as a push for purity in food and drugs. He famously opined "I aimed at the public's heart, and by accident I hit it in the stomach."
Carson was calling attention to the environmental damage that was being done, largely thought to be due to the overuse of DDT by farmers, and the potential long term harm it was doing to humans. Science has demonstrated that DDT it not immediately harmful, but it builds up in our systems and may be the cause of long-term problems.
What happened with Sinclair is a classic example of spin, with Teddy Roosevelt as the spin-master. He didn't want socialism to gain ground, so he changed the subject, inviting Sinclair to the White House but then focusing all of his remarks on the issue of food safety, save only to dismiss Sinclair's socialism as "pathetic". TR used what he called the "bully pulpit" to set the direction of the national conversation, as have many presidents since.
| 372 |
Gus Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:27:47pm |
Effectiveness of DDT against malaria
When it was first introduced in World War II, DDT was very effective in reducing malaria morbidity and mortality.[17] The WHO's anti-malaria campaign, which consisted mostly of spraying DDT, was initially very successful as well. For example, in Sri Lanka, the program reduced cases from about 3 million per year before spraying to just 18 in 1963[89][90] and 29 in 1964. Thereafter the program was halted to save money and malaria rebounded to 600,000 cases in 1968 and the first quarter of 1969. The country resumed DDT vector control but the mosquitoes had acquired resistance in the interim, presumably because of continued agricultural use. The program switched to malathion, which though more expensive proved effective.[21]
Today, DDT remains on the WHO's list of insecticides recommended for IRS. Since the appointment of Arata Kochi as head of its anti-malaria division, WHO's policy has shifted from recommending IRS only in areas of seasonal or episodic transmission of malaria, to also advocating it in areas of continuous, intense transmission.[91] The WHO has reaffirmed its commitment to eventually phasing out DDT, aiming "to achieve a 30% cut in the application of DDT world-wide by 2014 and its total phase-out by the early 2020s if not sooner" while simultaneously combating malaria. The WHO plans to implement alternatives to DDT to achieve this goal.[92]
South Africa is one country that continues to use DDT under WHO guidelines. In 1996, the country switched to alternative insecticides and malaria incidence increased dramatically. Returning to DDT and introducing new drugs brought malaria back under control.[93] According to DDT advocate Donald Roberts, malaria cases increased in South America after countries in that continent stopped using DDT. Research data shows a significantly strong negative relationship between DDT residual house sprayings and malaria rates. In a research from 1993 to 1995, Ecuador increased its use of DDT and resulted in a 61% reduction in malaria rates, while each of the other countries that gradually decreased its DDT use had large increase in malaria rates.[33]
| 373 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:29:12pm |
re: #371 Dark_Falcon
What happened with Sinclair is a classic example of spin, with Teddy Roosevelt as the spin-master. He didn't want socialism to gain ground, so he changed the subject, inviting Sinclair to the White House but then focusing all of his remarks on the issue of food safety, save only to dismiss Sinclair's socialism as "pathetic". TR used what he called the "bully pulpit" to set the direction of the national conversation, as have many presidents since.
Indeed, he was alarmed by the implications of Sinclair's book and wished to not only dash the chances of a socialist revolution, but also to smear Sinclair's name in perpetuity. He purposefully sent inspectors to major slaughterhouses and packing plants, hoping to prove that Sinclair's claims were bunk. But even with advance notice, courtesy of leaks within the White House, the companies still couldn't clean things up such that Sinclair's claims were proven. Teddy saw that there was no way to destroy Sinclair, so instead he used his claims as grounds to launch his own initiative to clean up the food industry.
Some of the best presidents have been those who have been able to turn others calls for action into their initiatives they could slap their names on.
| 375 |
The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:29:53pm |
re: #347 Killgore Trout
I've been growing it for a few years but only used the seeds. I only recently discovered the leaves are edible. I'll let you know how the chutney turns out.
If you haven't made Aloo Methi (potatoes with fenugreek greens), you should. It's a great dish. I bet you could substitute parsnips for potatoes, too.
| 376 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:29:58pm |
re: #367 The Ghost of a Flea
"For years, the rich, developed nations that no longer have malaria have pressured tropical countries which do into giving up DDT," says Don Roberts, professor of tropical public health at the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences in Bethesda, Maryland. "When countries stop using DDT, malaria spirals out of control." Even so, the United Nations Environmental Program is on the verge of a momentous, and controversial, decision - to phase out the use of DDT."
| 377 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:31:51pm |
re: #370 Targetpractice
I never said otherwise. What I did say:
Any way you cut it, there was a lot of pressure not to use DDT for any reason.
See Gus's link about Carson (I'm paraphrasing here) in which she denotes it was never her intention to ban DDT entirely, certainly not in areas where it could effectively be used to fight malaria.
| 378 |
Only The Lurker Knows Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:33:33pm |
re: #363 Dark_Falcon
Responded to you on the page.
| 379 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:33:44pm |
re: #377 researchok
I never said otherwise. What I did say:
Any way you cut it, there was a lot of pressure not to use DDT for any reason.
See Gus's link about Carson (I'm paraphrasing here) in which she denotes it was never her intention to ban DDT entirely, certainly not in areas where it could effectively be used to fight malaria.
Would Gus' link also be the one where it's noted that the ban on usage of DDT for agricultural purposes has actually increased the effectiveness of DDT for vector control purposes?
| 380 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:35:06pm |
re: #375 The Ghost of a Flea
If you haven't made Aloo Methi (potatoes with fenugreek greens), you should. It's a great dish. I bet you could substitute parsnips for potatoes, too.
That looks fantastic! I still haven't dug up my Russian Bananas , that looks like just the thing to get me trough those early October nights.
| 381 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:35:21pm |
re: #379 Targetpractice
Yes- but that doesn't negate the efficacy against malaria.
| 382 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:35:51pm |
re: #380 Killgore Trout
See what you started?
//
| 383 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:36:23pm |
re: #373 Targetpractice
Indeed, he was alarmed by the implications of Sinclair's book and wished to not only dash the chances of a socialist revolution, but also to smear Sinclair's name in perpetuity. He purposefully sent inspectors to major slaughterhouses and packing plants, hoping to prove that Sinclair's claims were bunk. But even with advance notice, courtesy of leaks within the White House, the companies still couldn't clean things up such that Sinclair's claims were proven. Teddy saw that there was no way to destroy Sinclair, so instead he used his claims as grounds to launch his own initiative to clean up the food industry.
Some of the best presidents have been those who have been able to turn others calls for action into their initiatives they could slap their names on.
It's just as well for Sinclair that TR was able to spin things. Had he gotten his way and a mass movement for socialism began in Chicago, TR would have seen it crushed. He was a great president, but if it had come to that he would have simply ordered in the Army. Which would have worked, given that Chicago's construction renders a "mass public" defense against an army almost impossible.
| 384 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:37:48pm |
| 386 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:39:56pm |
re: #381 researchok
Yes- but that doesn't negate the efficacy against malaria.
Not my point. My point is that DDT is effective when used for a specific purpose and in a limited amount, much like antibiotics. That the widespread, indiscriminate use by farmers was actually counter-productive as it sped up the breeding of resistant strains of malarial carriers. And that the primary problem is not the lack of DDT, but the lack of affordable alternatives. You'd be better served by promoting funding for antimalarial campaigns using alternatives rather than calling for an end to the DDT agricultural ban.
| 387 |
Sionainn Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:40:04pm |
re: #182 researchok
So we ought not use drugs to which we may become resistant?
No, but they need to be used judiciously.
| 388 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:41:56pm |
re: #385 researchok
I almost forgot.
I just went out to plant some more fenugreek but I sprayed DDT on the hippies, pepper sprayed the tomatillos and now my shoes fell off. I demand everybody explain themselves immediately!
| 389 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:42:30pm |
re: #388 Killgore Trout
I just went out to plant some more fenugreek but I sprayed DDT on the hippies, pepper sprayed the tomatillos and now my shoes fell off. I demand everybody explain themselves immediately!
*toke* Hey man, quit harshing my buzz.
//
| 390 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:42:51pm |
re: #388 Killgore Trout
I just went out to plant some more fenugreek but I sprayed DDT on the hippies, pepper sprayed the tomatillos and now my shoes fell off. I demand everybody explain themselves immediately!
That's what you get for growing weird foreign-sounding foods.
| 391 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:43:14pm |
re: #386 Targetpractice
Again, no argument.
you might find this interesting , From the NYT
What the World Needs Now Is DDT
An interesting call to reintroduce (albeit carefully) DDT to fight malaria.
| 392 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:45:17pm |
re: #391 researchok
An interesting call to reintroduce (albeit carefully) DDT to fight malaria.
'Reintroduce' would mean it's not currently in use now, which it is, as has been stated dozens of times.
Far be it from me to tell you how to live your life, but we were talking about science earlier, so fuck it. We're really quite a ways beyond the point where the intelligent scientist steps back and re-evaluates his hypothesis.
Confirmation bias is really spiraling out of control here.
| 393 |
Only The Lurker Knows Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:45:41pm |
re: #388 Killgore Trout
I just went out to plant some more fenugreek but I sprayed DDT on the hippies, pepper sprayed the tomatillos and now my shoes fell off. I demand everybody explain themselves immediately!
You sprayed yourself? Bad nozzle control. :-)
| 394 |
Big Joe Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:46:15pm |
re: #391 researchok
Again, no argument.
you might find this interesting , From the NYT
What the World Needs Now Is DDT
An interesting call to reintroduce (albeit carefully) DDT to fight malaria.
Wha?
| 395 |
Mocking Jay Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:47:16pm |
This sounds like fun.
Gay conservatives say they'll bring 'Homocon 2012' to Tampa convention
Gay conservatives said Thursday they'll have a major presence at Republicans' 2012 presidential nominating convention later this month, holding a party Tuesday night in Tampa.
GOProud, a group of gay conservatives that has pushed for inclusion in Republican and conservative circles, said it expects as many as 1,000 people at its party.
"Homocon 2012 will be the must have ticket for the RNC," said Jimmy LaSalvia, executive director and co-founder of GOProud. "Our special guests will be a who's who of the conservative movement."
| 396 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:48:14pm |
re: #392 erik_t
Yes, what would the NYT know.
Might I suggest you actually read the editorial?
...Yet what really merits outrage about DDT today is not that South Africa still uses it, as do about five other countries for routine malaria control and about 10 more for emergencies. It is that dozens more do not...
| 397 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:48:15pm |
re: #392 erik_t
'Reintroduce' would mean it's not currently in use now, which it is, as has been stated dozens of times.
Far be it from me to tell you how to live your life, but we were talking about science earlier, so fuck it. We're really quite a ways beyond the point where the intelligent scientist steps back and re-evaluates his hypothesis.
Confirmation bias is really spiraling out of control here.
A forum where politics is the biggest topic of discussion is bound to suffer from confirmation bias problems nowadays.
| 398 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:49:50pm |
re: #396 researchok
Yes, what would the NYT know.
Might I suggest you actually read the editorial?
The first three or four sources that I actually read (and you did not) ended up proving my point instead of yours, but I'm sure this one will be different.
/
| 399 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:50:02pm |
re: #391 researchok
Again, no argument.
you might find this interesting , From the NYT
What the World Needs Now Is DDT
An interesting call to reintroduce (albeit carefully) DDt tofight malaria.
It's only "reintroduction" in countries that have moved away from it, and they did so due to pressure, whether from market forces or foreign governments. And again, only in limited sprayings and only towards the purpose of fighting malarial vectors. The problem is that the alternatives are A) more expensive and B) not as effective. But neither is DDT when used indiscriminately for long lengths of time.
It's a matter of lesser evil, as it is with a lot of things in the scientific community. We banned CFCs, even though they're less expensive and in some cases more effective, because the damage they were doing to the environment was too dire to wait for science to come to a total consensus.
| 401 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:50:26pm |
re: #395 Mocking Jay
This sounds like fun.
Gay conservatives say they'll bring 'Homocon 2012' to Tampa convention
Actually, many of the guests at Homocon will be the extra strippers brought in for the main convention. Like many women, they'll be there to chat up the gay guys for fashion tips.
| 402 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:51:05pm |
re: #399 Targetpractice
Yes, that was the point of the editorial.
| 404 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:53:00pm |
re: #402 researchok
Yes, that was the point of the editorial.
Indeed, and that's been my point. We revile DDT because of the environmental damage it was doing, even though it wasn't outright killing humans. We decided that the damage to the ecosystem was greater than the benefits it provided, which were themselves subject to usage restrictions. Carson was sounding the alarm because the damage was already being done, even if scientists were too enamored by the "success" of DDT to think that the devil was in the details.
| 405 |
Interesting Times Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:56:58pm |
re: #393 Bubblehead II
Speaking of pages you've put up, we can haz the ones on emergency preparedness?
Drought worsens in midwest and threatens next year's corn crop
High food prices and even shortages are here to stay and steadily get worse. Thanks, deniers!
| 406 |
Kragar Sat, Aug 11, 2012 7:58:15pm |
re: #405 Interesting Times
Speaking of pages you've put up, we can haz the ones on emergency preparedness?
Drought worsens in midwest and threatens next year's corn crop
High food prices and even shortages are here to stay and steadily get worse. Thanks, deniers!
Remember, any effort to improve infrastructure to improve water and irrigation is government bloat.
| 407 |
Sionainn Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:04:24pm |
re: #278 researchok
How about this?
American Council on Science and Health
THE DDT BAN TURNS 30 — Millions Dead of Malaria Because of Ban, More Deaths Likely
From Source Watch.
From American Council on Science and Health's About section: "On one issue after another in recent years, ACSH has stood as a bulwark against the contemporary Luddites who see the beginning of civilization's end in every technological advance that reaches the market place."
- Edwin Feulner, President The Heritage Foundation
| 408 |
prairiefire Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:04:47pm |
re: #406 Kragar
It's the worst corn yield in 27 years. That will have a ripple economic effect.
| 409 |
Interesting Times Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:07:27pm |
RT @alan_cochran: Paul Ryan's idea of agood deed - twitter.com/Alan_Cochran/s...— Karoli (@Karoli) August 12, 2012
| 410 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:10:23pm |
| 411 |
Kragar Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:11:57pm |
re: #408 prairiefire
It's the worst corn yield in 27 years. That will have a ripple economic effect.
Nothing that tax cuts for billionaires can't fix.
/
| 412 |
Only The Lurker Knows Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:13:09pm |
Dropping out for a bit. The Mrs isn't going to be to happy though. Going to take a nap and then get up to watch the Perseid meteor shower. To bad those of you in the North Central U.S are screwed.
Have a good night
| 413 |
Gus Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:13:41pm |
re: #395 Mocking Jay
This sounds like fun.
Gay conservatives say they'll bring 'Homocon 2012' to Tampa convention
Join us at Homocon 2012 and have a big old glass of denial. Served by the pitcher.
| 414 |
jaunte Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:14:33pm |
re: #395 Mocking Jay
This sounds like fun.
Gay conservatives say they'll bring 'Homocon 2012' to Tampa convention
Maybe Bryan Fischer will drop by.
| 415 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:16:20pm |
| 416 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:16:22pm |
re: #411 Kragar
Nothing that tax cuts for billionaires can't fix.
/
It's not about that. John Boehner is wary of bring the needed agriculture bill to the floor of the House because most of its budget dollars are used for SNAP AKA Food Stamps. The concern is that many rank and file House GOP members want larger cuts to Food Stamps than the ill calls for. They feel they were sent to DC to cut entitlements, and they want to cut an entitlement.
| 417 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:18:37pm |
re: #416 Dark_Falcon
It's not about that. John Boener is wary of bring the needed agriculture bill to the floor of the House because most of its budget dollars are used for SNAP AKA Food Stamps. The concern is that many rank and file House GOP members want larger cuts to Food Stamps than the ill calls for. They feel they were sent to DC to cut entitlements, and they want to cut an entitlement.
And the last thing Boehner can afford, especially during a major drought season and three months prior to the election, is to put such a major farm bill up on the public block just for his party to kill it dead for all to see.
| 418 |
Mocking Jay Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:19:28pm |
re: #416 Dark_Falcon
It's not about that. John Boener is wary of bring the needed agriculture bill to the floor of the House because most of its budget dollars are used for SNAP AKA Food Stamps. The concern is that many rank and file House GOP members want larger cuts to Food Stamps than the ill calls for. They feel they were sent to DC to cut entitlements, and they want to cut an entitlement.
Nevermind that food stamps provide a benefit all around.
| 419 |
Kragar Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:19:58pm |
MMM. Beef and barley soup with fresh croissants.
| 420 |
Interesting Times Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:22:16pm |
re: #418 Mocking Jay
Nevermind that food stamps provide a benefit all around.
The Waltons are especially grateful for how said benefit subsidizes their payrolls.
| 421 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:24:37pm |
re: #417 Targetpractice
And the last thing Boehner can afford, especially during a major drought season and three months prior to the election, is to put such a major farm bill up on the public block just for his party to kill it dead for all to see.
Exactly. I don't mind being in the same party as John Boehner or Paul Ryan, but it sickens me to have other Republicans who are going to put critical legislation at risk so they can cast a vote against an entitlement. What they need to do is pass the bill and just tell their base: "Sorry, but we had to pass this. Farmers needed help and we needed to pass this to give it to them. We cut the waste and fraud from SNAP, but we can't make large cuts to the program till we git rid of Obama* and start growing the economy again."
*: Remember, this is what a Republican would say to his base. Blaming Obama would help defuse some of the hostility.
| 422 |
Sionainn Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:25:16pm |
re: #302 researchok
From Harvard's Center for International Development
Are they hacks. too?
John Dyson: Not a scientist. He's a writer for Reader's Digest.
| 423 |
Kragar Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:25:19pm |
re: #420 Interesting Times
The Waltons are especially grateful for how said benefit subsidizes their payrolls.
What do you mean?
Walmart Heirs Have As Much Wealth As Bottom 40 Percent Of Americans Combined
Oh.
| 424 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:25:19pm |
I remember when people used to poke fun at Pelosi, about how she had to break knees and twist arms to get her party to listen to her, that she was a total bitch when she didn't get her way.
Somehow, I bet Boehner wishes he had that sort of reputation right 'bout now.
| 425 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:26:02pm |
re: #418 Mocking Jay
Nevermind that food stamps provide a benefit all around.
Don't tell me that, don't even tell it to Paul Ryan. Tell it to the simplistic back-benchers.
| 426 |
Interesting Times Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:26:36pm |
...using Ayn Rand for a real political guidepost would be like using a third rate sci-fi writer as the basis for a religio--oh shit.— David Lapham (@DavidALapham) August 11, 2012
| 427 |
Gus Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:27:55pm |
re: #423 Kragar
What do you mean?
Walmart Heirs Have As Much Wealth As Bottom 40 Percent Of Americans Combined
Oh.
Yes. But they've amassed so much wealth that now the little people can expect the charity from the kind Walton family!
//
| 429 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:29:10pm |
re: #418 Mocking Jay
Nevermind that food stamps provide a benefit all around.
Jesus (said as hay seuss) Christo. Anyone who wants to cut food stamps is the coldest mother f around. Those people are beyond normal life.
JESUS. They need to go on a reality show "struggling Americans, is there any empathy out there?"
| 430 |
Sionainn Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:29:15pm |
re: #330 researchok
Exactly how many human deaths can be attributed to DDT?
See #329 for your answer.
| 431 |
jaunte Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:29:48pm |
re: #427 Gus
Alice Walton's art museum has free admission, if the poor can make it to Bentonville.
| 432 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:31:11pm |
re: #424 Targetpractice
I remember when people used to poke fun at Pelosi, about how she had to break knees and twist arms to get her party to listen to her, that she was a total bitch when she didn't get her way.
Somehow, I bet Boehner wishes he had that sort of reputation right 'bout now.
She's a she. They can paint her that way.
Boehner, IF HE HAD SUCCEEDED, would have been a strong leader.
We see this all the time, it sucks.
| 433 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:31:18pm |
This editorial:
makes a good point:
Having Ryan on the ticket will make it difficult for the losers of the election to claim that the winners doesn’t have some claim to pursue their fiscal vision. A decisive electoral resolution to this high stakes political fight is actually kind of scary no matter where you come down on issues like Medicare, Medicaid and tax policy. But it’ll also be good for the country if it means the government will have new running room to pay at least passing attention to things like mass unemployment and eroding infrastructure that the next president will have to deal with, whether he’s a Republican or Democrat.
| 434 |
Mocking Jay Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:32:36pm |
re: #432 Stanley Sea
She's a she. They can paint her that way.
Boehner, IF HE HAD SUCCEEDED, would have been a strong leader.
We see this all the time, it sucks.
I also have never seen her cry...
| 435 |
Gus Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:32:53pm |
re: #431 jaunte
Alice Walton's art museum has free admission, if the poor can make it to Bentonville.
Velvet paintings of Elvis?
//
| 437 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:34:29pm |
re: #435 Gus
Velvet paintings of Elvis?
//
Every home needs at least one Velvet Elvis and/or a painting of Dogs Playing Poker.
//
| 438 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:34:40pm |
re: #434 Mocking Jay
I also have never seen her cry...
I will never ever forget her carrying that big ass gavel to the health care vote.
| 439 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:34:43pm |
| 440 |
Interesting Times Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:35:12pm |
| 441 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:35:41pm |
re: #437 Targetpractice
Dogs Playing Poker.
//
That's not on the market--my boss had it in his office.
| 442 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:36:10pm |
| 445 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:38:46pm |
re: #444 Stanley Sea
Is that Durbin carrying her purse? If so, even better!
What, she couldn't fit the gavel in her purse? I thought those things were a mobile TARDIS that every woman carried around with her.
//
| 446 |
Sionainn Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:38:46pm |
re: #415 researchok
Yup
Dealt with an hour or so ago.
It's taken me quite a bit to get through this thread.
| 447 |
freetoken Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:40:44pm |
Are we still talking about DDT?
In the meantime... I've taken a shower, went for my evening walk, gleaned some delicious (non-DDT sprayed) figs.
| 448 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:41:23pm |
re: #447 freetoken
Are we still talking about DDT?
In the meantime... I've taken a shower, went for my evening walk, gleaned some delicious (non-DDT sprayed) figs.
Nah, now we've moved onto the big ass gavel Pelosi was sporting for the ACA vote back in '10.
| 449 |
Sionainn Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:42:01pm |
re: #439 researchok
And Obama was on Oprah.
Yeah, what do the guys at Harvard, NYT, WHO, et., know?
Strange that Harvard is publishing something from a Reader's Digest author. Could it be that it's not the scientific part of Harvard, but rather the economic "free market" part of Harvard? Hmmm.....
| 450 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:42:31pm |
re: #448 Targetpractice
Nah, now we've moved onto the big ass gavel Pelosi was sporting for the ACA vote back in '10.
And thank me very much.
:)
| 451 |
Sionainn Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:43:45pm |
re: #439 researchok
And Obama was on Oprah.
Yeah, what do the guys at Harvard, NYT, WHO, et., know?
Oh, and by the way, I read exactly what WHO said and how it should be absolutely proven first that the mosquitoes in an area are in fact susceptible to DDT and that DDT should be used as a last resort.
| 454 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:44:56pm |
re: #451 Sionainn
Again, I never said otherwise.
| 455 |
Sionainn Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:45:15pm |
re: #443 researchok
And that number is?
You tell me. You seem to be the one hung up and how many people have died because of DDT. You tell me how many people died because of overuse of DDT, creating DDT-resistant mosquitoes which then passed on malaria to how many people who then died. You tell me.
| 456 |
researchok Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:45:28pm |
re: #449 Sionainn
I'm pretty sure he vetted,
| 457 |
Gus Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:46:17pm |
re: #453 Gus
Good times...
FreeRepublic owner still boycotting Romney, hates Mormons, eviscerates staff
The mad owner of FreeRepublic goes off on another tangent of Romney's imaginary liberal treachery which really isn't even worth getting into because of this:
Lastly, we're having a bit of changeover on our moderator staff. At least two moderators resigned this afternoon after I flatly refused to rein in a so-called anti-Mormon "bigot" on FR. Well, if being in opposition to false prophets and false prophecy makes a Christian believer a bigot, then I guess I'm a bigot. I've posted before that I flat do not believe that the Book of Mormon is the true word of God. Nor do I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. The Christian bible warns us to be weary of false prophets and that I am. Romney being the presumptive Republican nominee does not change that fact.
| 458 |
Sionainn Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:46:41pm |
| 459 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:47:15pm |
re: #457 Gus
You can't make that shit up. That's pure uncut 100% Grade-A hand-made vintage free-range organic wingnut.
| 460 |
Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:47:31pm |
| 461 |
Sionainn Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:48:14pm |
Time for bed...4:30 is going to get here way too soon. Have fun!
| 462 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:49:12pm |
re: #457 Gus
Love to watch Freep. I could never have an ant farm as a child.
| 463 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:49:22pm |
re: #453 Gus
Good times...
FreeRepublic owner still boycotting Romney, hates Mormons, eviscerates staff
The Madness of King Robinson continues apace?
| 465 |
prairiefire Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:50:07pm |
re: #429 Stanley Sea
We ain't going to have it. Ryan is a perfect tee off for a political discussion at this time.
| 466 |
Gus Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:50:31pm |
re: #463 Targetpractice
The Madness of King Robinson continues apace?
Here's the link: [Link: www.freerepublic.com...]
| 467 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:50:51pm |
re: #462 Decatur Deb
Love to watch Freep. I could never have an ant farm as a child.
More like rats in a cage, if you ask me.
| 468 |
Gus Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:51:14pm |
Comment sample:
Well, if being in opposition to false prophets and false prophecy makes a Christian believer a bigot, then I guess I'm a bigot.
Three cheers and tip of the hat for being a steadfast man of principle.
In Obama's America, being called a bigot, a racist and homophobe is a badge of honor. One of the numerous good things about Free Republic is its defense for traditional Christian values and its stand against political correctness. Likewise, this is one of the few places on the planet where being branded a McCarthyite is a compliment. Is is any wonder that FR remains, after all these years, the only authentic presence on the web for true Conservatives?
Go Jim Go!
,,,and thanks.
| 469 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:51:28pm |
| 470 |
JamesWI Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:52:02pm |
re: #453 Gus
Good times...
FreeRepublic owner still boycotting Romney, hates Mormons, eviscerates staff
I've got to give it to him.....his ideas are hateful and evil, but unlike so many others on that side, at least he's consistent.
| 471 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:52:11pm |
re: #434 Mocking Jay
I also have never seen her cry...
She also dresses better than Boehner, but comparisons really are odious...
| 472 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:52:16pm |
| 473 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:52:37pm |
re: #467 Dark_Falcon
Wish I had watched the blog's evolution more. Seems to maintain a dynamic equilibrium in a flow of crazy.
| 474 |
freetoken Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:52:40pm |
There's a lot to be said for fresh (non DDT-sprayed) figs.
| 475 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:53:19pm |
re: #471 SanFranciscoZionist
She also dresses better than Boehner, but comparisons really are odious...
She's a woman with reasonable fashion, and he's a heterosexual man. Of course she dresses better than him.
| 476 |
Gus Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:53:55pm |
I believe God still speaks to people when they take enough time to listen. As for politics, I’m pretty sure the book of Revelation talks about the anti-Christ, who rules the whole world. That seems pretty political to me. It’s been well documented on FR why so many of us can’t vote for Romney and I won’t revisit the many points. I refuse to be part of a Laodicean, compromising church.
| 477 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:54:50pm |
re: #469 Targetpractice
Despite all their rage?
//
Yes, since rats in a cage will eat each other, and ants will not.
| 478 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:55:03pm |
re: #473 Decatur Deb
Wish I had watched the blog's evolution more. Seems to maintain a dynamic equilibrium in a flow of crazy.
I've seen far worse things. DU was marching people off to the gallows back in '04 for not showing the necessary enthusiasm for Kerry as a candidate.
| 479 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:55:17pm |
re: #475 Dark_Falcon
She's a woman with reasonable fashion, and he's a heterosexual man. Of course she dresses better than him.
Navy is a light shade of black, right?
| 480 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:55:27pm |
re: #476 Gus
Is there a master-list of Antichrists? How often is it updated?
| 481 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:55:31pm |
I am still trying to figure out what a true conservative is after all these years. I wonder though what FR thinks of Glenn Beck. After all, he too is a Mormon and using their standards, they should revile him even more since he's a convert.
| 482 |
freetoken Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:56:12pm |
The only problem with figs is that they are difficult to pair with chocolate.
Oh, people try with "white chocolate" (by which most people mean any white sugary fatty confection, even if it doesn't include cocoa butter), but that's not really trying.
| 483 |
Lidane Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:56:18pm |
The internet helps science find new species. Who knew?
Flickr Photo of Insect Identified As Never-Before-Seen Species [VIDEO]
Very cool.
| 484 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:56:46pm |
re: #478 Targetpractice
I've seen far worse things. DU was marching people off to the gallows back in '04 for not showing the necessary enthusiasm for Kerry as a candidate.
I have to say even though I am glad to have seen this blog evolve to the left that it will never be a DU. It's never going to be an echo chamber. One can learn a lot here even with those they disagree with.
| 485 |
Gus Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:56:58pm |
re: #480 Decatur Deb
Is there a master-list of Antichrists? How often is it updated?
Whew. Lots of crazy in that thread. Had to stop reading.
| 486 |
Mocking Jay Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:57:54pm |
re: #482 freetoken
The only problem with figs is that they are difficult to pair with chocolate.
Oh, people try with "white chocolate" (by which most people mean any white sugary fatty confection, even if it doesn't include cocoa butter), but that's not really trying.
God help me, the older I get the more I like it. I don't get it.
| 487 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:58:02pm |
re: #485 Gus
Whew. Lots of crazy in that thread. Had to stop reading.
I've set an estimated Threshold Limit Value of 20 min. per 8-hour shift.
| 488 |
jaunte Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:58:32pm |
The Mississippi River has fallen so low that the American Queen steamboat, which had been on its way from Louisville to Vicksburg, Miss., had to stop this month in Memphis, according to wire reports. That left 240 passengers to finish the trip by bus.
Summer’s record heat, drought point to longer-term climate issues
| 489 |
Mocking Jay Sat, Aug 11, 2012 8:59:04pm |
re: #484 HappyWarrior
I have to say even though I am glad to have seen this blog evolve to the left that it will never be a DU. It's never going to be an echo chamber. One can learn a lot here even with those they disagree with.
Yeah, no lefty site's going to keep you up to date on all the rapey-stabby goings on at the OWS camps.
| 490 |
freetoken Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:01:15pm |
re: #486 Mocking Jay
God help me, the older I get the more I like it. I don't get it.
"White chocolate"?
| 491 |
dragonath Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:01:16pm |
re: #484 HappyWarrior
I actually came here from Balloon Juice because I felt like the comments section was becoming something of a troll fest. There are still great discussions over there but the site changed a lot in the last 4 years.
| 492 |
Lidane Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:01:46pm |
re: #478 Targetpractice
I've seen far worse things. DU was marching people off to the gallows back in '04 for not showing the necessary enthusiasm for Kerry as a candidate.
DU was also a pretty hardcore PUMA site in '08 I think. Or at least I saw quite a few PUMA types posting there during the primaries.
| 493 |
Mocking Jay Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:01:51pm |
| 494 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:03:34pm |
re: #489 Mocking Jay
Yeah, no lefty site's going to keep you up to date on all the rapey-stabby goings on at the OWS camps.
Heh I went to an OWS rally with a friend. For all OWS had been made out to be. It really was really amusing how mild it was compared to the allegations one would read online about them. Only real complaint I had was that it was a cold and rainy day. Not the best conditions for protesting.
| 495 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:04:17pm |
re: #482 freetoken
Fig gelato recipe!
[Link: www.melindalee.com...]
| 496 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:04:31pm |
re: #492 Lidane
DU was also a pretty hardcore PUMA site in '08 I think. Or at least I saw quite a few PUMA types posting there during the primaries.
DU was on my scan list for the '08 election. Don't go there much this time, just because their format is so user-hostile.
| 497 |
erik_t Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:05:21pm |
re: #494 HappyWarrior
Heh I went to an OWS rally with a friend. For all OWS had been made out to be. It really was really amusing how mild it was compared to the allegations one would read online about them. Only real complaint I had was that it was a cold and rainy day. Not the best conditions for protesting.
My boring-ass white-bread late-50s parents did same and felt same. It didn't fade away fast enough, but it was a good conversation-starter. The country is much, much better for it.
| 498 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:05:33pm |
re: #482 freetoken
The only problem with figs is that they are difficult to pair with chocolate.
Oh, people try with "white chocolate" (by which most people mean any white sugary fatty confection, even if it doesn't include cocoa butter), but that's not really trying.
lol
| 499 |
Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:06:02pm |
re: #481 HappyWarrior
Speaking of Glenn, boy he went the way of the Dodo Coulter.
It's like his followers, whom he fed, finally surpassed him in the crazy arts and no longer needed him much any more!
| 500 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:06:17pm |
re: #497 erik_t
My boring-ass white-bread late-50s parents did same and felt same. It didn't fade away fast enough, but it was a good conversation-starter. The country is much, much better for it.
They are trying to bring up some valid issues. Whole thing did feel like some of the anti war rallies I had been to in Bush's first term. But violent like some were making out to be made me laugh.
| 501 |
Kragar Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:09:34pm |
| 502 |
Mocking Jay Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:09:38pm |
Now that Bill Kristol has successfully predicted the last two Republican veeps, I have no choice but to refer to him as the Wingnut Whisperer.
| 503 |
Gus Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:10:30pm |
Romney Campaign Examined Tax Returns Of Potential Veeps buzzfeed.com/zekejmiller/ro... via @buzzfeed— Ben Smith (@BuzzFeedBen) August 12, 2012
| 505 |
Lidane Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:12:19pm |
re: #468 Gus
More Freeper crazy:
As an agnostic, I don't give a crap.
Yet, as I stated earlier, this is an awful pick. Ryan could never be more effective than where he is now. Romney takes a true conservative out of a position of power and sends him to foreign funerals for the next four years. Once again the conservatives get screwed!
---Have you checked out ‘12 POTUS candidate Tom Hoefling of America’s Party? IMHO, he’s much better than Virgil Goode, on most issues. Tom’s knowledge of the U.S. Constitution and all other important U.S. documents is second to none, and Tom is a terrific speaker, too.
---Rep. Ryan looks like the older brother of Brad Paisley, the country music performer. [My note: This is an insult to Brad Paisley. WTF did he ever do to this FR poster?]
---If more conservatives felt like Jim Robinson, we wouldn’t have these frauds and usurpers begging for our adoration and votes.
---I was just going to comment on one or two things you said but after reading all of your post Jim I'll just say I concur 1001% with everything you said. The Mormon religion is little more than an organized cult IMO and Romney is very much more closer to the (satanist) Obama in his stated and practiced positions than he is to me and conservatives.
He definitely will not receive my vote. I like Ryan a little but his selection is just way too little and way too late to have any impact on my feelings towards the equally evil one, Mittens Rumney.
---“A vote withheld from Romney only helps one person...”
Yeah, it helps Romney with a tan. You might know him as Barack Obama.
Oh man. The crazy is hilarious in this thread.
| 506 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:12:58pm |
re: #499 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate
Speaking of Glenn, boy he went the way of the Dodo Coulter.
It's like his followers, whom he fed, finally surpassed him in the crazy arts and no longer needed him much any more!
He lost his show on Fox and that wounded him beyond recovery. Not just that he lose it, but more how he lost it. Beck was sent on his way because Fox could not get its advertisers to run their commercials during his show's hour and the lost money hurt. Beck made himself radioactive to advertisers, which is death for a media figure.
| 507 |
JamesWI Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:13:20pm |
re: #499 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate
Speaking of Glenn, boy he went the way of the Dodo Coulter.
It's like his followers, whom he fed, finally surpassed him in the crazy arts and no longer needed him much any more!
I think Glenn's still got tons of followers.
The thing is, by going off in his own world and leaving Fox News and modern media behind, he's managed to quarantine himself and his followers in a magical land where no one else cares about him.
He really did us a service there!
| 508 |
dragonath Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:14:33pm |
"America's Party" sounds pretty wingnutty.
Oh wait, it's Alan Keyes's party!
| 509 |
Mocking Jay Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:14:50pm |
So I took a look at Jim Robinson's post there...
Except for his unfortunate go along to get along support of TARP, bailouts, stimulus spending and the increased credit limit, etc, Ryan is a pretty good choice. Probably the best choice of the RINOS that were on Romney's short list. I support Ryan for the vice presidency. Wish he were at the top of the ticket, though.
RINO? Ryan is a RINO?
Who the fuck isn't a RINO, then? Jesus, if you want to vote for Genghis Khan just freaking say so.
| 510 |
Kragar Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:15:12pm |
| 511 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:15:23pm |
re: #505 Lidane
More Freeper crazy:
As an agnostic, I don't give a crap.
Yet, as I stated earlier, this is an awful pick. Ryan could never be more effective than where he is now. Romney takes a true conservative out of a position of power and sends him to foreign funerals for the next four years. Once again the conservatives get screwed!
Oh man. The crazy is hilarious in this thread.
and if mitt had not picked a true conservative, this asshole would have attacked him over that. This guy does not like Mitt Romney because he thinks Romney "impure".
| 512 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:15:46pm |
re: #509 Mocking Jay
So I took a look at Jim Robinson's post there...
RINO? Ryan is a RINO?
Who the fuck isn't a RINO, then? Jesus, if you want to vote for Genghis Khan just freaking say so.
Birth certificate problem.
| 513 |
JamesWI Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:16:49pm |
re: #509 Mocking Jay
So I took a look at Jim Robinson's post there...
RINO? Ryan is a RINO?
Who the fuck isn't a RINO, then? Jesus, if you want to vote for Genghis Khan just freaking say so.
He voted for TARP, the first $700 billion+ stimulus, the auto-bailouts, and Medicare prescription benefits, among other things.
It was only when the eeeeevil Democrat got into office that Ryan starting caring about government spending.......
| 514 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:16:50pm |
re: #494 HappyWarrior
Heh I went to an OWS rally with a friend. For all OWS had been made out to be. It really was really amusing how mild it was compared to the allegations one would read online about them. Only real complaint I had was that it was a cold and rainy day. Not the best conditions for protesting.
It was a concerted, organized effort to discredit it. I believe this completely.
Money people who were going to suffer from the outcome of the movement moved fast to stop it. Belittle it, make it all about hippies. They influenced media, and then, it trickled down to fools who believed the media OR those who had an agenda. Always on the side of the $ vs the little guy. (GOP votors/apologists) I mean, we saw normal people supporting the spraying in the face of people with pepper spray.
| 515 |
jaunte Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:16:58pm |
| 516 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:18:28pm |
re: #509 Mocking Jay
So I took a look at Jim Robinson's post there...
RINO? Ryan is a RINO?
Who the fuck isn't a RINO, then? Jesus, if you want to vote for Genghis Khan just freaking say so.
Actually, the Mongols were pretty good on religious tolerance and multiculturalism, so I doubt the Great Khan would work well for the wingnuts.
| 517 |
dragonath Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:18:48pm |
♩ ♬ Who's to blame when parties really get out of hand?
Who's to blame when they get poorly planned? ♩ ♬
| 518 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:18:48pm |
| 519 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:18:51pm |
re: #513 JamesWI
He voted for TARP, the first $700 billion+ stimulus, the auto-bailouts, and Medicare prescription benefits, among other things.
It was only when the eeeeevil Democrat got into office that Ryan starting caring about government spending.......
Yep, soon as Obama took office, suddenly Ryan was all kinds of sorry that he'd signed onto anything Bush sold Congress on and was born again as a small government Republican.
Praise Rand!//
| 520 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:19:26pm |
re: #513 JamesWI
He voted for TARP, the first $700 billion+ stimulus, the auto-bailouts, and Medicare prescription benefits, among other things.
It was only when the eeeeevil Democrat got into office that Ryan starting caring about government spending.......
Yeah, I hate saying but the Freeper has a point but here's the thing. There is no perfect conservative waiting to ride in on a white horse and make conservatism pure again.
| 521 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:20:26pm |
re: #520 HappyWarrior
Yeah, I hate saying but the Freeper has a point but here's the thing. There is no perfect conservative waiting to ride in on a white horse and make conservatism pure again.
What about Zombie Reagan?
| 522 |
JamesWI Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:20:59pm |
re: #520 HappyWarrior
Yeah, I hate saying but the Freeper has a point but here's the thing. There is no perfect conservative waiting to ride in on a white horse and make conservatism pure again.
LUAP DNAR!
| 523 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:21:09pm |
| 524 |
Mocking Jay Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:21:35pm |
re: #516 SanFranciscoZionist
Actually, the Mongols were pretty good on religious tolerance and multiculturalism, so I doubt the Great Khan would work well for them.
You're starting to make me suspect that the ideal Conservative Candidate is a figment of their imaginations...
| 525 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:22:05pm |
re: #521 Targetpractice
What about Zombie Reagan?
Only because it's Reagan. Once Zombie Reagan gets into office and expresses support for less nuclear arms, the deal's off.
| 526 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:22:09pm |
re: #524 Mocking Jay
You starting to make me suspect that the ideal Conservative Candidate is a figment of their imaginations...
Or they're too scared to admit that they're closet Paulians.
| 527 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:22:37pm |
re: #525 HappyWarrior
Only because it's Reagan. Once Zombie Reagan gets into office and expresses support for less nuclear arms, the deal's off.
But what about support for his "Brain in Every Pot" plan?
| 528 |
freetoken Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:22:56pm |
Last 30 days of Arctic Ice Thickness, showing the rapid melt due to the churning of water by the very unusual (extreme low pressure) storm system that roared through the Arctic last week. You can see the surface ice collapse quickly in front of the storm's waves.
| 529 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:23:21pm |
Nah the Freepers are the type that think Paul's foreign policy stance makes him a liberal. I've actually seen people try to argue that as "proof" that Paul isn't on the right. Nevermind the fact that the American right had many isolationists right up to Pearl Harbor.
| 530 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:23:45pm |
re: #527 Targetpractice
But what about support for his "Brain in Every Pot" plan?
Whoa, whoa, every pot? That sounds a little socialist.
| 531 |
Lidane Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:24:17pm |
Freeper crazy, part three:
I don’t much care about Romney being a Mormon.
Mormons may not be my bag, but at least he isn’t a Muslim like Obama.I don’t like Romney at all and didn’t vote for him in the primary, if there was anyone else out there with a chance of winning they would have my vote.
There is no one.
It’s Obama or Romney. I choose to get rid of a man who hates me, hates my wife and family, and is turning our country into a debt ridden , haven for perverts, and ne’er do wells who refuse to work.
Yes I will vote for Romney ,I have no choice.
---[Note: This was in response to another poster]
Your ad hominem are so typical of Willard "Myth" Romney
and his Team of BAckstabbers (of Conservatives, women and the handicapped, especially).
Vicious hyperliberal Romney is exactly like Obama on many issues,
ranging from judges nominated, to TARP support,
to thinking they are deities.Mr. RomneyCARE matches Obama in Constitution breaking.
Furthermore, for your foul-mouthed RomneyBOT info (like you care anyway)
Mr. RomneyCARE EXCEEDS Obama’s in hyperliberality and statism
in that Mr. RomneyCARE personally installed both ObamaCARE/RomneyCARE
AND gay marriage.
Based on his PAST BEHAVIOR, Mr. RomneyCARE
is far to the left of both Obama
and the late Ted Kennedy and anyone else the DNC might put out..
---That’s really the problem you don’t see. This battle is bigger than Barack Obama, but the scumbags in the GOPe want you to believe it is. The battle is with the IDEOLOGY that empowers Obama and so many others, including within the GOPe itself. Mittens is merely the Republican version of the same progressive ideology. IOW, we lost this battle when Mittens secured his path to the nomination.
What will happen with Mittens is 4 years of degenerate RINO control, followed up with another possible 4 years of degenerate RINO control, to be followed up with degenerate DemonRat control. Because, let’s face it, Romney is a big government statist who is just going to manage the decline. Except now the Great Economic Collapse that is coming is going to fall on OUR doorstep instead of the socialists. I won’t vote for Obama, but I sure as hell hope Mittens loses and we have strong conservatives to oppose him in Congress. The short term pain is better than long term mediocrity and eventual death.
| 532 |
dragonath Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:25:02pm |
re: #528 freetoken
That image transitioned to a picture of Paul Ryan and then I knew we were doomed.
| 533 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:25:23pm |
re: #529 HappyWarrior
Nah the Freepers are the type that think Paul's foreign policy stance makes him a liberal. I've actually seen people try to argue that as "proof" that Paul isn't on the right. Nevermind the fact that the American right had many isolationists right up to Pearl Harbor.
They're still isolationist, to a degree. Or I should say protectionist, as they're all for getting the US out of the UN, cutting off foreign ties to nations that aren't on our side 100% of the time, and totally supportive of an "America First" trade policy.
| 534 |
freetoken Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:25:40pm |
re: #532 Fred Galt
That image transitioned to a picture of Paul Ryan and I then I knew we were doomed.
Yeah. The image viewing software is messing up somewhere.
| 536 |
Interesting Times Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:26:47pm |
re: #532 Fred Galt
That image transitioned to a picture of Paul Ryan and I then I knew we were doomed.
Related:
Paul Ryan voted to stop the USDA from planning for the climate related droughts currently devastating his home state. bit.ly/MLm5zd— Christopher Mims (@mims) August 12, 2012
| 537 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:27:16pm |
re: #535 b_sharp
OK, what have I missed?
We're plotting the take-over of the government. Unfortunately, your tardiness means most of the good spots in the government are already chosen. How do you feel about being Secretary of the Interior?
//
| 538 |
dragonath Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:28:07pm |
Zombie Reagan's appendages really are nuclear arms. It says so, right here in the Reaganomicon.
| 539 |
b_sharp Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:28:14pm |
re: #537 Targetpractice
We're plotting the take-over of the government. Unfortunately, your tardiness means most of the good spots in the government are already chosen. How do you feel about being Secretary of the Interior?
//
What's Kragar's role?
| 540 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:29:23pm |
re: #539 b_sharp
What's Krager role?
Secretary of Defense. He's promised much blood for the blood god.
//
| 541 |
freetoken Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:29:42pm |
| 542 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:30:05pm |
re: #533 Targetpractice
They're still isolationist, to a degree. Or I should say protectionist, as they're all for getting the US out of the UN, cutting off foreign ties to nations that aren't on our side 100% of the time, and totally supportive of an "America First" trade policy.
It's weird. They talk about wanting to cut off foreign aid then they talk about how Obama has pissed off our allies especially the Israelis and British. Got news for them, but cutting off foreign aid isn't going to make you friends with anyone. The withdraw from the UN people though are a throwback to the Birchers in the early years of the UN's existence though.
| 544 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:31:09pm |
re: #531 Lidane
Freeper crazy, part three:
---That’s really the problem you don’t see. This battle is bigger than Barack Obama, but the scumbags in the GOPe want you to believe it is. The battle is with the IDEOLOGY that empowers Obama and so many others, including within the GOPe itself. Mittens is merely the Republican version of the same progressive ideology. IOW, we lost this battle when Mittens secured his path to the nomination.
What will happen with Mittens is 4 years of degenerate RINO control, followed up with another possible 4 years of degenerate RINO control, to be followed up with degenerate DemonRat control. Because, let’s face it, Romney is a big government statist who is just going to manage the decline. Except now the Great Economic Collapse that is coming is going to fall on OUR doorstep instead of the socialists. I won’t vote for Obama, but I sure as hell hope Mittens loses and we have strong conservatives to oppose him in Congress. The short term pain is better than long term mediocrity and eventual death.
Someone's got insecurity issues. Obama hates me and my wife so I have to stop him!
| 545 |
HappyWarrior Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:33:12pm |
By the way, anyone seeing the Romney-Ryan slogan, "America's Comeback Team." Yeah the guy from Bain and Mr. Ayn Rand fanboy are just what America needs to come back. Also a guy who told a surrogate not to mention the improving economy in the region he was speaking in so he could try to create the narrative of Barack Obama the destroyer.
| 546 |
Kragar Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:33:37pm |
re: #540 Targetpractice
Secretary of Defense. He's promised much blood for the blood god.
//
FUCK YEAH!
| 547 |
Kragar Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:34:02pm |
| 548 |
Targetpractice Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:36:31pm |
re: #545 HappyWarrior
By the way, anyone seeing the Romney-Ryan slogan, "America's Comeback Team." Yeah the guy from Bain and Mr. Ayn Rand fanboy are just what America needs to come back. Also a guy who told a surrogate not to mention the improving economy in the region he was speaking in so he could try to create the narrative of Barack Obama the destroyer.
Obama the Destroyer...sounds like an 80s B-movie.
//
| 549 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:40:25pm |
re: #548 Targetpractice
Obama the Destroyer...sounds like an 80s B-movie.
//
Pam Grier had the best line:
"Do you mo-fos want to live forever?"
| 550 |
JamesWI Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:40:32pm |
re: #548 Targetpractice
Obama the Destroyer...sounds like an 80s B-movie.
//
It's got me thinking of Obama as Conan.....this is probably what that Freeper imagines Obama thinking: "What is best in life? To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."
| 552 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:42:42pm |
re: #525 HappyWarrior
Only because it's Reagan. Once Zombie Reagan gets into office and expresses support for less nuclear arms, the deal's off.
Ah yes, the IRBM Treaty. To wingnuts, it is the Treaty That Shall Not Be Spoken Of, while to Ronald Reagan it was the achievement of his 'zero-option', and proof of his honest intentions. Reagan had never liked the Pershing II or nuclear-armed, ground based Tomahawks; rather he saw them as a counter weight to the Soviet SS-20s. Once the 'Sabers' (the SS-20's NATO code-name) were banned by treaty, and the USSR had a leader who would allow the needed verification of their destruction, Reagan was happy to get rid of the US intermediate-range nukes. It's actually a story that enhances his image as a leader if you are a sane person.
| 553 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:43:58pm |
re: #549 Decatur Deb
Pam Grier had the best line:
"Do you mo-fos want to live forever?"
Would be good if it wasn't stolen from both Frederick the Great and USMC Sgt. Dan Daley.
| 555 |
Lidane Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:46:36pm |
re: #550 JamesWI
It's got me thinking of Obama as Conan.....this is probably what that Freeper imagines Obama thinking: "What is best in life? To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."
Hilariously, Barack Obama collects Conan the Barbarian comics .
| 556 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:46:40pm |
Seen it attributed to a WWI British lieutenant. ( That might have been How I Won the War.)
| 557 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:52:01pm |
re: #556 Decatur Deb
Seen it attributed to a WWI British lieutenant. ( That might have been How I Won the War.)
No. Wrong war, same helmets.
| 558 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:53:20pm |
re: #556 Decatur Deb
Seen it attributed to a WWI British lieutenant. ( That might have been How I Won the War.)
I do not recall that. but it is a simple enough sentiment that the line may have been developed independantly by more people than Sgt. Daley (he was unaware of Frederick the Great having utter a similar line more than 150 years before).
| 559 |
prairiefire Sat, Aug 11, 2012 9:58:37pm |
re: #551 b_sharp
The EPA would be good. Traveling around taking samples.
| 560 |
jvic Sat, Aug 11, 2012 10:04:32pm |
re: #516 SanFranciscoZionist
Actually, the Mongols were pretty good on religious tolerance and multiculturalism, so I doubt the Great Khan would work well for the wingnuts.
On civil disobedience, probably not so much. I say "probably" because I don't know of anyone who was crazy enough to try.
| 561 |
Eventual Carrion Sun, Aug 12, 2012 8:30:02am |
re: #61 Targetpractice
Are humans the only animals on this planet? The sum total of the food chain?
Sometimes it is forgotten that animals eat other animals and plants. Kill off the plants and the animals that eat them leave or die, then the animals that eat those other animals either leave or die, then it doesn't matter how many guns you have or how great of a hunter you are, you will either leave (and have to use your guns and ammo to fight others that want you out of their hunting area and their limited supply) or you die (remember, you killed off the plants and the birds and bees that would have aided in their pollination for survival). We are all in this together, everyone lives downstream.
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