Religious Fanatics and Oil Industry Shills Agree: Paul Ryan Has a ‘Biblical View of the Environment’

Dangerous ignorance
Wingnuts • Views: 27,808
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Here’s American Family Association fundamentalist loon Bryan Fischer with energy industry shill Cal Beisner, congratulating Mitt Romney on his selection of Paul Ryan — because Ryan’s anti-science views on climate change and the environment are every bit as insane as theirs: Fischer and Beisner Praise Ryan’s ‘Biblical View of the Environment’.

Fischer: It seems like we’ve got another clear differential when it comes to a sane, objective and biblical or evangelical understanding of man’s relationship with the environment. Paul Ryan seems to get it and the other team doesn’t. So that would be potentially very good news for those of us that care about seeing a biblical view of the environment in public policy.

Beisner: Yes it would. Ryan’s understanding I think fits well with the biblical understanding that God made man in His image to be creative and productive as He is, to fill and to rule the earth. Not to abuse the earth, not to rape the land so to speak as many environmentalists talk, but rather to increase its fruitfulness, its beauty and its safety to the glory of God and the benefit of our neighbors. I think that really underlies the comments that Ryan has made on these issues through the years and it comes I think from his solidly Christian worldview background.

…

Beisner: Most Americans do not see any real purpose in tight restrictions on CO2 admissions. Many Americans actually remembered what they learned way back in seventh and eighth grade biology class, mainly that carbon dioxide is plant food. So the more of that there is in the air the more the crops grow and the cheaper the food is around the world, this actually helps especially the poor.

Also see
The Oily Operators Behind the Religious Climate Change Disinformation Front Group, Cornwall Alliance

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241 comments
1 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:38:50pm

Cargo Cult Ecology.

2 Gus  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:39:54pm

Cletus: Why everyone knows that CO2 is plant food.

3 KettleKat  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:40:20pm

I would say that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but this is more like "zero knowledge is an extinction-level threat".

4 SpikeDad  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:40:34pm

Whoa? More CO2 is good because it helps plants grow? No humans on Earth is good too but not my first choice in environmental planning.

I'd so love somebody in the press question Ryan about this philosophy of high C02 is good for the planet and get an answer.

5 erik_t  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:42:10pm

Thoughtful, serious, intellectual leader of the party.

Grrrrreat.

6 Bulworth  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:43:25pm

My favorite part of the Bible is the story of Moses and King David drilling for oil. //

7 Summer Lovin' Torture Party  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:43:48pm

re: #4 SpikeDad

Whoa? More CO2 is good because it helps plants grow? No humans on Earth is good too but not my first choice in environmental planning.

I'd so love somebody in the press question Ryan about this philosophy of high C02 is good for the planet and get an answer.

AND COWS FARTING ADD ALL THE METHANE TO THE ATMOSPHERE!!! THAT'S A HECK OF A LOT WORSE THAN THE CO2 WE EXHALE!!! WHAT IF SOMEONE TOOK A ZIPPO TO THE METHANE, HUH?!? WE'D ALL BURN TO DEATH, YOU LIBERAL IDIOT!!!

8 Kragar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:43:53pm

These same folks believe the earth is 6000 years old and 2 of every animal in existence with supplies to care for them for 40 days fit on a boat 1/3 the size of an aircraft carrier.

Biblical understanding my ass.

9 Amory Blaine  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:44:06pm

Yeah. We gotta real crop of good ones in Wisconsin.

10 Summer Lovin' Torture Party  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:44:26pm

re: #6 Bulworth

My favorite part of the Bible is the story of Moses and King David drilling for oil. //

Mine is Jesus not mentioning abortion nor gay marriage.

11 Bulworth  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:44:34pm

And King David took all the oil and dumped it in the river near the Philistines so the enemy all got sick and died and then King David took the rest of the oil and sold it to the Saudis. /

12 Bulworth  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:46:13pm

Moses and the people of Israel spent a whole year at Mt. Sinai mining coal. The two tablets containing the Ten Commandments were actually coal tablets. /

13 Gus  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:47:49pm

Here you go. From Cal's website:

An Evangelical Declaration on Global Warming

PREAMBLE

As governments consider policies to fight alleged man-made global warming, evangelical leaders have a responsibility to be well informed, and then to speak out. A Renewed Call to Truth, Prudence, and Protection of the Poor: An Evangelical Examination of the Theology, Science, and Economics of Global Warming demonstrates that many of these proposed policies would destroy jobs and impose trillions of dollars in costs to achieve no net benefits. They could be implemented only by enormous and dangerous expansion of government control over private life. Worst of all, by raising energy prices and hindering economic development, they would slow or stop the rise of the world’s poor out of poverty and so condemn millions to premature death.

WHAT WE BELIEVE

We believe Earth and its ecosystems—created by God’s intelligent design and infinite power and sustained by His faithful providence —are robust, resilient, self-regulating, and self-correcting, admirably suited for human flourishing, and displaying His glory. Earth’s climate system is no exception. Recent global warming is one of many natural cycles of warming and cooling in geologic history.

We believe abundant, affordable energy is indispensable to human flourishing, particularly to societies which are rising out of abject poverty and the high rates of disease and premature death that accompany it. With present technologies, fossil and nuclear fuels are indispensable if energy is to be abundant and affordable.

We believe mandatory reductions in carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gas emissions, achievable mainly by greatly reduced use of fossil fuels, will greatly increase the price of energy and harm economies.

We believe such policies will harm the poor more than others because the poor spend a higher percentage of their income on energy and desperately need economic growth to rise out of poverty and overcome its miseries.

WHAT WE DENY

We deny that Earth and its ecosystems are the fragile and unstable products of chance, and particularly that Earth’s climate system is vulnerable to dangerous alteration because of minuscule changes in atmospheric chemistry. Recent warming was neither abnormally large nor abnormally rapid. There is no convincing scientific evidence that human contribution to greenhouse gases is causing dangerous global warming.

We deny that alternative, renewable fuels can, with present or near-term technology, replace fossil and nuclear fuels, either wholly or in significant part, to provide the abundant, affordable energy necessary to sustain prosperous economies or overcome poverty.

We deny that carbon dioxide—essential to all plant growth—is a pollutant. Reducing greenhouse gases cannot achieve significant reductions in future global temperatures, and the costs of the policies would far exceed the benefits.

We deny that such policies, which amount to a regressive tax, comply with the Biblical requirement of protecting the poor from harm and oppression.

A CALL TO ACTION

In light of these facts,

We call on our fellow Christians to practice creation stewardship out of Biblical conviction, adoration for our Creator, and love for our fellow man—especially the poor.

We call on Christian leaders to understand the truth about climate change and embrace Biblical thinking, sound science, and careful economic analysis in creation stewardship.

We call on political leaders to adopt policies that protect human liberty, make energy more affordable, and free the poor to rise out of poverty, while abandoning fruitless, indeed harmful policies to control global temperature.

14 erik_t  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:48:29pm
but rather to increase its fruitfulness, its beauty and its safety to the glory of God and the benefit of our neighbors

Cal Beisner thinks this is beautiful.

I'd love to see his wife.

15 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:48:50pm

re: #8 Kragar

These same folks believe the earth is 6000 years old and 2 of every animal in existence with supplies to care for them for 40 days fit on a boat 1/3 the size of an aircraft carrier.

Biblical understanding my ass.

And the carnivores refrained from eating the herbivores until the herbivores reproduced for several generations.

Genetic bottleneck? No way! Founder effect? Ain't possible.

16 Kragar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:51:11pm

re: #15 b_sharp

And the carnivores refrained from eating the herbivores until the herbivores reproduced for several generations.

Duh, that is why they had supplies on the ark, so the 2 lions wouldn't eat the 2 lambs...

I'm seeing a possible flaw in their logic.

17 jaunte  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:51:20pm
Thus far, Cornwall has been able to masquerade as a legitimate, independent group of pastors and religious leaders opposed to addressing climate change. However, ThinkProgress investigated the group and found deep ties to the oil industry, as well as with longtime right-wing operatives orchestrating the climate science denial machine.

The Cornwall Alliance appears to be a creation of a group called the James Partnership, a nonprofit run by Chris Rogers and Peter Stein, according to documents filed with the Virginia State Corporation Commission. Rogers, who heads a media and public relations firm called CDR Communications, collaborates with longtime oil front group operative David Rothbard, the founder and President of the Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow (CFACT) and Jacques Villarreal, a lower level staffer at CFACT, for his James Partnership group. In the past, Rogers’ firm has worked for the Bush administration and for the secretive conservative planning group, the Council for National Policy.[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

Just a humble little gathering of pious "solidly Christian worldview" polluters.

18 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:51:36pm

re: #13 Gus

Here you go. From Cal's website:

Physics means nothing to these people.

19 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:52:28pm

re: #14 erik_t

Cal Beisner thinks this is beautiful.

I'd love to see his wife.

It's even prettier when the "restored" mountaintop started landsliding in heavy rain.

20 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:53:59pm

re: #14 erik_t

Cal Beisner thinks this is beautiful.

I'd love to see his wife.

This always nice.

21 Amory Blaine  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:54:27pm

Resist the Green Dragon!!!!!!

22 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:55:05pm

re: #16 Kragar

Duh, that is why they had supplies on the ark, so the 2 lions wouldn't eat the 2 lambs...

I'm seeing a possible flaw in their logic.

It would have been worse after they were let off the Ark and on their way to the correct continents.

23 wrenchwench  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:56:48pm

re: #13 Gus

Here you go. From Cal's website:

He forgot one thing: We got thrown out of the garden for eating from the Tree of Knowledge.

Methinks somebody could really use another bite.

24 Gus  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:57:12pm

How can radiation be harmful? Radiation in fact cures cancer! How can it be harmful?

25 jaunte  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:57:16pm
26 erik_t  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:57:34pm

They're lucky one of their two penguins wasn't gay.

27 Gus  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:58:04pm

re: #23 wrenchwench

He forgot one thing: We got thrown out of the garden for eating from the Tree of Knowledge.

Methinks somebody could really use another bite.

Yeah. I was going to say that calling oneself "evangelical" is rather subjective -- at least in theory.

28 Kragar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:58:32pm

re: #22 b_sharp

It would have been worse after they were let off the Ark and on their way to the correct continents.

True. Also, you've got to add in time afterwards to sail around the world and dropping off the animals again.

Noah: "OK, We're doing this alphabetically by continent."
South America: "Fucking hell."

29 Interesting Times  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:59:34pm

PRAY MOAR!!1!1! Derp.

30 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 2:59:34pm

re: #8 Kragar

These same folks believe the earth is 6000 years old and 2 of every animal in existence with supplies to care for them for 40 days fit on a boat 1/3 the size of an aircraft carrier.

Biblical understanding my ass.

Not to mention the heat generated by enough rain and 'fountains of the deep' to cover mountains.

31 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:02:43pm

re: #24 Gus

Any and all harmful environmental conditions can be resolved by erecting another moai holding a prayer meeting.

32 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:04:16pm

Of course they're happy. They see the selection of Ryan as further confirmation that they own Romney lock, stock, and political barrel. And therefore if he wins there will be less in the way of them pushing through the long hoped for conservative social agenda at the national level. With the additional expectation that Romney will allow them to get a few more vetted social conservative justices on the Supreme Court in order to then go after Roe vs Wade and whatever other targets they choose.

33 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:08:07pm

re: #28 Kragar

True. Also, you've got to add in time afterwards to sail around the world and dropping off the animals again.

Noah: "OK, We're doing this alphabetically by continent."
South America: "Fucking hell."

Whoa, whoa, whoa!
I spent all that time getting them and you want me to put them back?!
Fuck that shit, I'm going to Disney World.
-Noah

34 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:08:59pm

re: #29 Interesting Times

[Embedded content]

What the..
Is that serious...?
Is my brain on backwards?

35 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:12:45pm

re: #34 Varek Raith

What the..
Is that serious...?
Is my brain on backwards?

Yes, quite serious.

36 Gus  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:17:04pm

Treatment... t-r-e-a-t-m-e-m-t... Treatment as in medicine... as in science... s-c-i-e-n-c-e. It's not "Evangelist Billy Graham hospitalized for bronchitis, responding to PRAYER."

37 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:17:41pm

re: #35 b_sharp

Yes, quite serious.

So...
What does it mean???
/

38 Only The Lurker Knows  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:19:14pm

re: #8 Kragar

These same folks believe the earth is 6000 years old and 2 of every animal in existence with supplies to care for them for 40 days fit on a boat 1/3 the size of an aircraft carrier.

Biblical understanding my ass.

///Well you see, this was explained in the Elder Gods series. God Just shrunk them down to 1/.025 of their size so they would all fit. Simple.

39 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:19:32pm

Deuteronomy 28

20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a]

21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess.

22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish.

23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron.

24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

40 Summer Lovin' Torture Party  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:20:49pm

re: #39 Learned Mother of Zion

Deuteronomy 28

20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a]

21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess.

22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish.

23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron.

24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

And people say their God is a "loving God?" Child, please.

41 Lidane  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:22:46pm

re: #5 erik_t

Thoughtful, serious, intellectual leader of the party.

Grrrrreat.

On a related note, I expect the RWNJs to respond to this editorial in the National Catholic Reporter in a calm, reasonable, rational manner:

There is no doubt Obama is pro-choice. He has said so many times. There is also no doubt Romney is running on what he calls a pro-life platform. But any honest analysis of the facts shows the situation is much more complicated than that.

For example, Obama's Affordable Care Act does not pay for abortions. In Massachusetts, Romney's health care law does. Obama favors, and included in the Affordable Care Act, $250 million of support for vulnerable pregnant women and alternatives to abortion. This support will make abortions much less likely, since most abortions are economic. Romney, on the other hand, has endorsed Wisconsin Republican Paul Ryan's budget, which will cut hundreds of millions of dollars out of the federal plans that support poor women. The undoubted effect: The number of abortions in the United States will increase. On these facts, Obama is much more pro-life than Romney.

42 jaunte  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:23:46pm

re: #39 Learned Mother of Zion

25 Profit!

43 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:26:06pm

re: #40 Summer Lovin' Torture Party

And people say their God is a "loving God?" Child, please.

Tough love.

What part of that scripture is not an accurate description of global warming?

44 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:26:42pm

I just ran across an old (July 17,2012) Fox news bit about Sheriff Joe Arpaio's investigation of Obama's birth certificate and noticed something weird (er than normal) about it.

The idea is there are codes that exist on the certificate that indicate fields were not originally filled in, but are now. This supposedly means the certificate was tampered with.

Mike Zullo, the posse's chief investigator, said numeric codes on certain parts of the birth certificate indicate that those parts weren't filled out, yet those sections asking for the race of Obama's father and his field of work or study were completed.

That paragraph was followed by this one:

Zullo said investigators previously didn't know the meaning of codes but that the codes were explained by a 95-year-old former state worker who signed the president's birth certificate.

So this guy, who had to have retired at least 30 years ago, has claimed to have signed the original birth certificate and tells them what the codes mean but it doesn't dawn on them this guy by his very age verifies the certificate as real?

How stupid can they be?

Read more: [Link: www.foxnews.com...]

45 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:27:12pm

re: #37 Varek Raith

So...
What does it mean???
/

Hot tubs for everyone.

46 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:28:03pm

re: #39 Learned Mother of Zion

Deuteronomy 28

20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a]

21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess.

22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish.

23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron.

24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

There's nothing in there about Chick-Fil-A

47 Gus  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:28:39pm

re: #46 b_sharp

There's nothing in there about Chick-Fil-A

Or lesbians.

48 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:28:57pm

Bryan Fischer is good reason to dislike Bryan Fischer & his "teachings" (gag). His abuses of scripture are not good reason to attack the religion in general or the New Testament in particular. Unless we are prepared to look at the Old Testament and the Jewish religion in a similar hostile light? I would hope not. After all there is no good reason to do so.

49 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:30:00pm

re: #46 b_sharp

There's nothing in there about Chick-Fil-A

I'm sure if I try hard enough, I can find something about chickens or poultry somewhere in the Bible.

It's a big book.

50 allegro  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:31:11pm

re: #39 Learned Mother of Zion

Deuteronomy 28

20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a]

21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess.

22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish.

23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron.

24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

Malignant narcissist comes to mind. This is actually why I rejected religious education as a little kid. I did not like that guy. Jesus seemed cool, but his dad? Not so much.

51 dragonfire1981  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:32:21pm

I seem to recall from my seventh grade science classes that plants need other things to grow too...

52 Gus  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:32:35pm

Climate Change: An Evangelical Call to Action

53 engineer cat  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:33:13pm

Many Americans actually remembered what they learned way back in seventh and eighth grade biology class, mainly that carbon dioxide is plant food. So the more of that there is in the air the more the crops grow and the cheaper the food is around the world, this actually helps especially the poor

so, when us evangelical preacher types expel extraordinary quantities of hot air, ya see, we're really just trying to reduce the price of food for them starving people

also mah pompadour helps with that...

54 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:33:55pm

re: #48 Daniel Ballard

Bryan Fischer is good reason to dislike Bryan Fischer & his "teachings" (gag). His abuses of scripture are not good reason to attack the religion in general or the New Testament in particular. Unless we are prepared to look at the Old Testament and the Jewish religion in a similar hostile light? I would hope not. After all there is no good reason to do so.

Religion is a tool for madmen as much as it is a comfort for others. What bothers me about religion is the power it wields, through absolute authority and ultimate punishment/reward, to direct people's beliefs and actions.

55 Gus  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:34:14pm

re: #52 Gus

Climate Change: An Evangelical Call to Action

Preamble

As American evangelical Christian leaders, we recognize both our opportunity and our responsibility to offer a biblically based moral witness that can help shape public policy in the most powerful nation on earth, and therefore contribute to the well-being of the entire world. Whether we will enter the public square and offer our witness there is no longer an open question. We are in that square, and we will not withdraw.

Continues.

56 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:34:17pm

re: #49 Mostly sane, most of the time.

I'm sure if I try hard enough, I can find something about chickens or poultry somewhere in the Bible.

It's a big book.

With tissue thin pages.

57 engineer cat  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:34:21pm

now i understand how plants live on pollution

am i saved?

58 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:34:38pm

re: #53 engineer cat

Many Americans actually remembered what they learned way back in seventh and eighth grade biology class, mainly that carbon dioxide is plant food. So the more of that there is in the air the more the crops grow and the cheaper the food is around the world, this actually helps especially the poor

so, when us evangelical preacher types expel extraordinary quantities of hot air, ya see, we're really just trying to reduce the price of food for them starving people

also mah pompadour helps with that...

Although, this does mean that planting more trees and plants and grass is a good idea.

59 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:35:11pm

re: #50 allegro

Malignant narcissist comes to mind. This is actually why I rejected religious education as a little kid. I did not like that guy. Jesus seemed cool, but his dad? Not so much.

Jesus comes off as a harmless hippy.

60 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:35:55pm

re: #51 dragonfire1981

I seem to recall from my seventh grade science classes that plants need other things to grow too...

You mean like H2O?

61 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:36:01pm

re: #59 b_sharp

Jesus comes off as a harmless hippy.

Except that he thought they shouldn't be selling things in church.

I wonder how he would feel about "send me money if you want to be saved."

(As opposed to: Send the poor money because I told you to.)

62 Gus  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:36:25pm

re: #55 Gus

Preamble

More...

Claim 3: Christian Moral Convictions Demand Our Response to the Climate Change Problem

While we cannot here review the full range of relevant biblical convictions related to care of the creation, we emphasize the following points:

Christians must care about climate change because we love God the Creator and Jesus our Lord, through whom and for whom the creation was made. This is God’s world, and any damage that we do to God’s world is an offense against God Himself (Gen. 1; Ps. 24; Col. 1:16).

Christians must care about climate change because we are called to love our neighbors, to do unto others as we would have them do unto us, and to protect and care for the least of these as though each was Jesus Christ himself (Mt. 22:34-40; Mt. 7:12; Mt. 25:31-46).

Christians, noting the fact that most of the climate change problem is human induced, are reminded that when God made humanity he commissioned us to exercise stewardship over the earth and its creatures. Climate change is the latest evidence of our failure to exercise proper stewardship, and constitutes a critical opportunity for us to do better (Gen. 1:26-28).

Love of God, love of neighbor, and the demands of stewardship are more than enough reason for evangelical Christians to respond to the climate change problem with moral passion and concrete action.

63 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:36:28pm

re: #53 engineer cat

Many Americans actually remembered what they learned way back in seventh and eighth grade biology class, mainly that carbon dioxide is plant food. So the more of that there is in the air the more the crops grow and the cheaper the food is around the world, this actually helps especially the poor

so, when us evangelical preacher types expel extraordinary quantities of hot air, ya see, we're really just trying to reduce the price of food for them starving people

also mah pompadour helps with that...

hate yer sideburns Elvis.

64 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:36:33pm

re: #60 b_sharp

You mean like H2O?

DIHYDROGEN OXIDE?!!

Are you kidding? Do you know how dangerous that stuff is? It killed Leonardo diCaprio and a bunch of extras as well.

65 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:36:54pm

WTF comedy break.
[Link: www.hulu.com...]

66 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:38:06pm

re: #57 engineer cat

now i understand how plants live on pollution

am i saved?

Sorry man, the World locked up before the save finished, so you've been corrupted.

67 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:39:15pm

re: #64 Mostly sane, most of the time.

DIHYDROGEN OXIDE?!!

Are you kidding? Do you know how dangerous that stuff is? It killed Leonardo diCaprio and a bunch of extras as well.

That stuff is EVERYWHERE!!!

68 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:39:42pm

re: #61 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Except that he thought they shouldn't be selling things in church.

I wonder how he would feel about "send me money if you want to be saved."

(As opposed to: Send the poor money because I told you to.)

Even though I doubt he actually existed, I kind of like the philosophy behind the myth.

I'd have a beer with the dude.

69 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:40:19pm

re: #54 b_sharp

Religion is a tool for madmen as much as it is a comfort for others. What bothers me about religion is the power it wields, through absolute authority and ultimate punishment/reward, to direct people's beliefs and actions.

Religion, philosophy, education can all fit your description of tool for madmen and comfort to others. Most of us are not madmen. Thankfully it's power in the US is quite limited. As we can see here. That's pretty offensive to ordinary kind people of faith. But hey the 1st has that covered, so that's how the cookie crumbles. We deal with it. Bryan Fischer is a far larger sort of problem.

70 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:41:01pm

re: #64 Mostly sane, most of the time.

DIHYDROGEN OXIDE?!!

Are you kidding? Do you know how dangerous that stuff is? It killed Leonardo diCaprio and a bunch of extras as well.

Damn right, get too much of that stuff and you're toast.

71 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:41:24pm

Heh. Hippies.

Youtube Video
72 allegro  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:41:49pm

re: #68 b_sharp

Even though I doubt he actually existed, I kind of like the philosophy behind the myth.

I'd have a beer with the dude.

I hear he had some mighty fine wine. Singing Joooy to the world... (oh noes, now that song will be stuck in my head all night)

73 compound_Idaho  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:41:58pm

re: #68 b_sharp

Even though I doubt he actually existed, I kind of like the philosophy behind the myth.

I'd have a beer with the dude.

I think he was a wine drinker. Heard he changed DIHYDROGEN OXIDE?!! into wine.

74 dragonfire1981  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:41:59pm

re: #60 b_sharp

You mean like H2O?

and proper light exposure and proper temperate conditions, etc, etc.

75 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:42:12pm

re: #65 Varek Raith

WTF comedy break.
[Link: www.hulu.com...]

We don't Hulu in Canada.

76 Gus  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:43:51pm

More...

Call to Action - Young Evangelicals for Climate Action: Our Call to Action

“We are young evangelicals in the United States who are coming together and taking action to overcome the climate crisis as part of our Christian discipleship and witness.”

We are young evangelicals who follow Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord, and strive to live out what Jesus said was most important: loving God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and loving our neighbors as ourselves. For us this means proclaiming the whole Gospel, nurturing all of life, and caring for the poor and vulnerable....

77 Gus  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:44:52pm

Found that here: Hope on Climate Change: Young Evangelicals for Climate Action

78 DREd  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:44:57pm

I though Brawndo had what plants crave. Who knew it was CO2?

79 Kragar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:45:41pm

Drove past some high schoolers skate boarding on the way home. A kid in a custom wheel chair blew right threw the middle of them, tossed them the finger over his shoulder as he left them in the dust and had the biggest grin I've seen in a while.

That kid is my hero.

80 Only The Lurker Knows  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:46:54pm

re: #39 Learned Mother of Zion

Deuteronomy 28

20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.[a]

21 The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess.

22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish.

23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron.

24 The Lord will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

Yah, Such a loving asshole. So powerful he has to create beings less than himself so he can torture them while they are alive and then continue to do so after he manages to kill them. Just so he can get a kick out of being worshiped?

Anybody now wonder why I refute/despise religion?

81 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:47:18pm

re: #50 allegro

Malignant narcissist comes to mind. This is actually why I rejected religious education as a little kid. I did not like that guy. Jesus seemed cool, but his dad? Not so much.

Yeah, religion would be so much easier if they left out all that bad stuff about disasters and ecological ruin!

82 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:47:55pm

re: #75 b_sharp

We don't Hulu in Canada.

Go to Hawaii and they can teach you how...

83 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:51:25pm

re: #69 Daniel Ballard

Religion, philosophy, education can all fit your description of tool for madmen and comfort to others. Most of us are not madmen.

The power of philosophy and education to direct action, especially of large groups, is less than the power of religion.
I agree, you aren't all madmen. That's why I try to avoid attacking individuals about their religion, although I do have a few things to say about religion in general and creationists as a group.

Thankfully it's power in the US is quite limited. As we can see here. That's pretty offensive to ordinary kind people of faith. But hey the 1st has that covered, so that's how the cookie crumbles. We deal with it. Bryan Fischer is a far larger sort of problem.

Plenty of religious billboards around telling us we're going to hell if we don't believe. There's a tit-for-tat game going on.

84 Gus  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:51:31pm

Here's how that asshole James Inhofe responded to Evangelical Environmental Network (who seem to be on the right track):

I find it extremely ironic that Rev. Mitchell Hescox and the Evangelical Environmental Network think that the pro-life agenda is best aligned with a movement that believes there are too many people in the world, actively promotes population control, and sees humans principally as polluters," Senator Inhofe said. "To claim that EPA's devastating, job-killing regime is somehow 'pro-life' is absurd.

"Democrats already tried this tactic when they brought in Rev. Cizik, an avid global warming alarmist - who was featured on the cover of a 2006 issue of Vanity Fair walking on water - to testify on the 'morality' of cap-and-trade legislation. Well, in a May 2006 speech to the World Bank Cizik said, 'We need to confront population control and we can - we're not Roman Catholics after all - but it's too hot to handle now.' Not exactly a pro-life viewpoint.

"While I appreciate anyone who stands up for life, the Evangelical Environmental Network is simply wrong to align the pro-life movement with EPA's Utility MACT rule. I applaud the more than 30 pro-life leaders, including Cal Beisner, who have come forward to oppose this campaign. As they rightly said in a statement, they reject the Evangelical Environmental Network's claim because 'that portrayal is disingenuous and dangerous to our efforts to protect the lives of unborn children.' I stand with them.

"Of course, we all support clean air for our children - I have twenty kids and grandkids. But unfortunately, Utility MACT is not about public health. When the Obama EPA puts forth a rule that is unaffordable and largely unachievable; will cost $11 billion with a projected $6 million in direct benefits, the only conclusion is that this is just another part of President Obama's ongoing war on affordable energy and American energy jobs.

85 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:52:39pm

re: #76 Gus

More...

Call to Action - Young Evangelicals for Climate Action: Our Call to Action

Good for them.

86 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:53:49pm

re: #80 Bubblehead II

Yah, Such a loving asshole. So powerful he has to create beings less than himself so he can torture them while they are alive and then continue to do so after he manages to kill them. Just so he can get a kick out of being worshiped?

Anybody now wonder why I refute/despise religion?

I thought maybe you had a splinter in your paw.

87 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:54:36pm

re: #86 b_sharp

I thought maybe you had a splinter in your paw.

Or a rock in your shoe.

88 Gus  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:55:41pm

bbl

89 makeitstop  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:57:03pm

re: #83 b_sharp

Plenty of religious billboards around telling us we're going to hell if we don't believe. There's a tit-for-tat game going on.

I just had my own sister tell me that I don't love my country because I'm voting for Obama.

Who needs billboards? I've got fundie relatives.
/spit

90 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:57:56pm

re: #84 Gus

Here's how that asshole James Inhofe responded to Evangelical Environmental Network (who seem to be on the right track):

He's an idiot.

91 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:59:04pm

re: #89 makeitstop

I just had my own sister tell me that I don't love my country because I'm voting for Obama.

Who needs billboards? I've got fundie relatives.
/spit

You can argue with a person, but not with a billboard.

92 Only The Lurker Knows  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 3:59:21pm

re: #86 b_sharp

I thought maybe you had a splinter in your paw.

Some (Christians) might say I had a stick up my ass. Both tend to make me very irate.

Bbiaw. Better half wants to go to the Store. Don't think She is wanting Hamburger Helper tonight.

93 allegro  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:00:17pm

re: #91 b_sharp

You can argue with a person, but not with a billboard.

Unfortunately, the end result is often the same.

94 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:00:28pm

re: #92 Bubblehead II

Some (Christians) might say I had a stick up my ass. Both tend to make me very irate.

Bbiaw. Better half wants to go to the Store. Don't think She is wanting Hamburger Helper tonight.

Go all out and make a nice grilled cheese sandwich and tomato soup.
/

95 blueraven  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:01:03pm

speaking of drought...OMG it's raining here! After many brutally hot/dry days

Just Lovely.

96 Obdicut  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:02:15pm

Paul Ryan's "Insane" Workout Routine

Get the adrenaline flowing by reading about the cost of food subsidies. We might as well be feeding raccoons with these school lunch programs. They'll just keep coming back. Why are their parents allowed to buy carbs with food stamps? Do these people know how many pink slime employees lost their jobs over bogus blogger boycotts? Arrrrgh! I feel so pumped!

97 allegro  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:02:21pm

re: #94 Varek Raith

Go all out and make a nice grilled cheese sandwich with grilled onions and jalapenos and fresh, homemade tomato-basil soup.
/

Damn. Now I'm hungry.

98 makeitstop  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:02:45pm

re: #91 b_sharp

You can argue with a person, but not with a billboard.

Not a whole lot of difference between my sister and a billboard at this point.

99 Kragar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:03:35pm

re: #94 Varek Raith

Go all out and make a nice grilled cheese sandwich and tomato soup.
/

I made a salad with chicken strips, romaine lettuce, Parmesan cheese, almonds and bacon.

100 Varek Raith  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:08:35pm

re: #99 Kragar

I made a salad with chicken strips, romaine lettuce, Parmesan cheese, almonds and bacon.

I made tacos.

101 sagehen  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:08:55pm

Boehner’s Office Says Obama Avoiding Personal Responsibility For Drought

On its website and in an email Monday, House Speaker John Boehner’s office said President Obama needs to take personal responsibility for the drought ravaging the Midwest.

Obama, “continues to blame anyone and everyone for the drought but himself,” reads a release from Boehner’s office posted online and distributed to reporters Monday. The quote was attributed to Boehner himself in a Financial Times story. The online post and the press release came from Boehner spokesperson Kevin Smith.

(updated hours later... they meant to say president Obama needs to take responsibility for not responding to the drought....)

102 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:10:23pm

re: #100 Varek Raith

I made tacos.

I'm on the West Coast. I haven't made any food yet at all.

103 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:11:59pm

re: #102 Mostly sane, most of the time.

I'm on the West Coast. I haven't made any food yet at all.

What did you make for breakfast?

104 steve_davis  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:12:14pm

"Most Americans do not see any real purpose in tight restrictions on CO2 admissions. Many Americans actually remembered what they learned way back in seventh and eighth grade biology class, mainly that carbon dioxide is plant food. So the more of that there is in the air the more the crops grow and the cheaper the food is around the world, this actually helps especially the poor."

Yes, and some of us remember what we learned in freshman biology in college: 5% carbon dioxide levels in our environment and we drop dead. But that's all right, because then the nitrogen in our bodies becomes plant food.

105 Kragar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:12:43pm

re: #102 Mostly sane, most of the time.

I'm on the West Coast. I haven't made any food yet at all.

Been working thru lunches so I can leave early, so I make a snack when I get home.

106 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:17:45pm

re: #103 Learned Mother of Zion

What did you make for breakfast?

Whole wheat pancakes.

107 freetoken  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:21:03pm

Beisner gets trotted out by Republicans in Congress during Climate Change hearings. And it is clear why: he comes pre-approved not just by the fossil fuel industry but also by the "base", the religious right.

108 Lidane  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:23:12pm

re: #99 Kragar

I made a salad with chicken strips, romaine lettuce, Parmesan cheese, almonds and bacon.

I was supposed to cook a pork stir-fry with rice tonight. I screwed up the rice somehow and ended up making an Asian-style pork & veggie risotto instead. All things considered, it turned out okay.

109 prairiefire  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:24:40pm

re: #95 blueraven

speaking of drought...OMG it's raining here! After many brutally hot/dry days

Just Lovely.

We finally had a break in the heat wave on Friday here in KC. I can not wait for Fall. The cool air feels great.

110 Stoatly  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:27:09pm

I popped out on my bike for a few supplies, as I returned dusk was falling here in the UK and an enormous dragonfly formated on my bike: flying 10" in front of of my front light for what seemed an age, iridescent bronze/green in the beam

Magical moment (unless it was just another of those Gubbermint drones, keeping an eye on me)

111 freetoken  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:30:18pm

Getting some play on the net:

Anti-Glacier Prayer "Worked Too Well"—Vatican Approves New Ritual

About 50 people set out on foot from the Swiss village of Fiesch at dawn on July 31. As the sun rose over 13,000-foot (4,000-meter) Alpine peaks, the procession moved slowly up a mountainside and into the cool of a pine forest, stopping at a tiny church.

By 7:30 the group had swollen to around a hundred—too many to fit inside the chapel of Maria Heimsuchung, or Mary of the Visitation, so a makeshift altar was erected outside.

"Glacier is ice, ice is water, water is life," intoned priest Toni Wenger, before beseeching God to stop the glaciers high above them from melting.

[...]

112 freetoken  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:32:01pm

Also in the news today:

Jerry Brown sets sights on climate-change 'deniers'


Good luck, Jerry.

113 kirkspencer  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:32:25pm

Two words: Oxygen toxicity

114 freetoken  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:36:19pm

BTW, the bigger science news today:

Research raises doubts about whether modern humans and Neanderthals interbred

New research raises questions about the theory that modern humans and Neanderthals at some point interbred, known as hybridisation. The findings of a study by researchers at the University of Cambridge suggests that common ancestry, not hybridisation, better explains the average 1-4 per cent DNA that those of European and Asian descent (Eurasians) share with Neanderthals. It was published today, 13 August, in the journal PNAS.

This should (has) started quite the conversation among the geneticists and genome specialists.

This is what scientists do: create arguments for or against propositions, discuss it (via letters, journal articles), and come to some resolution (eventually).

This is not what is happening the climate change denialism industry, which is a propaganda machine.

115 sizzzzlerz  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:39:59pm
...mainly that carbon dioxide is plant food. So the more of that there is in the air the more the crops grow...

By that token, Venus ought to be garden paradise.

116 freetoken  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:41:33pm

There are a couple of problems for this PNAS paper, off the top of my head:

It doesn't account for why current African populations don't have the shared DNA with the Neanderthals.

It doesn't account for why another type of human, evidenced by the bones found in the cave in Denisova, has genetic material that is only found in some people in SE Asia.

117 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:41:58pm

re: #115 sizzzzlerz

By that token, Venus ought to be garden paradise.

Mars too.

118 freetoken  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:43:02pm

re: #115 sizzzzlerz

As any plant scientist could tell them, plant growth is dependent upon many variables.


But, they ignore solid science all around, not just about climatology.

119 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:44:14pm

re: #118 freetoken

As any plant scientist could tell them, plant growth is dependent upon many variables.

But, they ignore solid science all around, not just about climatology.

You mean, like soil composition?

120 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:46:28pm

re: #110 Stoatly

I popped out on my bike for a few supplies, as I returned dusk was falling here in the UK and an enormous dragonfly formated on my bike: flying 10" in front of of my front light for what seemed an age, iridescent bronze/green in the beam

Magical moment (unless it was just another of those Gubbermint drones, keeping an eye on me)

Pretty cool!

121 freetoken  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:53:35pm

And... the rule is holding - that most media outlets are unable to to handle this story (about the proposed common ancestry accounting for genetic commonalities between Neanderthals and Eurasian moderns.)

This happens all the time - in climate change too - the popular outlets, those that reach most people, are not able or willing to communicate the complexities involved, and how science actually works.

For example, Bloomberg has a headline and story that makes it all sound pat:

Neanderthal-Human Similarities Not Due To Mating

When the actual paper is about a simulation that shows that a recent common ancestry between Neanderthals and Eurasian moderns can also account for the measured commonality. This new proposition has several side effects, such as the difficulty of accounting for African DNA being free of this Neanderthal commonality.

122 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:56:01pm

re: #118 freetoken

As any plant scientist could tell them, plant growth is dependent upon many variables.

But, they ignore solid science all around, not just about climatology.

If we examine the arguments from creationists and apply the same test to denialists it's obvious they have trouble following multiple lines of evidence to a shared conclusion. It seems the tendency to see things in black and white terms makes it difficult for them to see the complex interaction of evidence.

I explained how it works to my grandkid by showing how one line of evidence may have several explanations but adding another line of evidence narrows the previous set of explanations down and each time you add a line of evidence the number of possible explanations drops til you have just one.

I used the case of the broken lamp taken from my childhood.

123 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:56:23pm

re: #120 Stanley Sea

Pretty cool!

Love those drones.

124 nines09  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:56:33pm

Best line of the day. They are oligarchs and racists clad in the skins of dead elephants.

125 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:58:06pm

re: #121 freetoken

And... the rule is holding - that most media outlets are unable to to handle this story (about the proposed common ancestry accounting for genetic commonalities between Neanderthals and Eurasian moderns.)

This happens all the time - in climate change too - the popular outlets, those that reach most people, are not able or willing to communicate the complexities involved, and how science actually works.

For example, Bloomberg has a headline and story that makes it all sound pat:

Neanderthal-Human Similarities Not Due To Mating

When the actual paper is about a simulation that shows that a recent common ancestry between Neanderthals and Eurasian moderns can also account for the measured commonality. This new proposition has several side effects, such as the difficulty of accounting for African DNA being free of this Neanderthal commonality.

Annoyance at how the media explains science has been an ongoing state of mind for scientists for a long time.

126 freetoken  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:58:49pm

re: #122 b_sharp

If we examine the arguments from creationists ...

Creationists don't have arguments - they have apologetics.

127 SteveMcG  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:03:25pm

re: #50 allegro

Malignant narcissist comes to mind. This is actually why I rejected religious education as a little kid. I did not like that guy. Jesus seemed cool, but his dad? Not so much.

You gotta remember, what we read about his Father was written by people barely out of the Bronze Age. That's why the Old Man had to send his son to teach the Beatitudes.

128 freetoken  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:09:08pm

These ideas we kick around, whether they be climatology, evolution, genetics, and so on, are so esoteric that most people just don't want to deal with them.

Our little self-selected group here - we tend to be nerds. Most of us like to read, and read topics that most of our fellow Americans tend to avoid.

It's important to remember this when dealing with politics. A large share of the voters who show up to the polls in November won't have any idea of what carbon dioxide really is, much less its role in plant processes or in the climate.

129 freetoken  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:11:41pm

Which is why I posted that link a group praying over glaciers.

To much of humanity, the idea that there is a magical sky-Father is who running everything is more readily grasped than the nitty stuff scientists discuss.

130 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:19:39pm

re: #128 freetoken

These ideas we kick around, whether they be climatology, evolution, genetics, and so on, are so esoteric that most people just don't want to deal with them.

Our little self-selected group here - we tend to be nerds. Most of us like to read, and read topics that most of our fellow Americans tend to avoid.

It's important to remember this when dealing with politics. A large share of the voters who show up to the polls in November won't have any idea of what carbon dioxide really is, much less its role in plant processes or in the climate.

I do tend to forget that, I grew up immersing myself in science, hung around with other nerds (when I wasn't hanging with the drug/alcohol fuelled group) and married a woman with similar interests.

131 freetoken  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:23:36pm

Since I'm talking to myself here... I'll add this note for my records:

It was just last week in PNAS that another interesting human evolution paper appeared:

Generation times in wild chimpanzees and gorillas suggest earlier divergence times in great ape and human evolution

Fossils and molecular data are two independent sources of information that should in principle provide consistent inferences of when evolutionary lineages diverged. Here we use an alternative approach to genetic inference of species split times in recent human and ape evolution that is independent of the fossil record. We first use genetic parentage information on a large number of wild chimpanzees and mountain gorillas to directly infer their average generation times. We then compare these generation time estimates with those of humans and apply recent estimates of the human mutation rate per generation to derive estimates of split times of great apes and humans that are independent of fossil calibration. We date the human–chimpanzee split to at least 7–8 million years and the population split between Neanderthals and modern humans to 400,000–800,000 y ago. This suggests that molecular divergence dates may not be in conflict with the attribution of 6- to 7-million-y-old fossils to the human lineage and 400,000-y-old fossils to the Neanderthal lineage.

I never like reading/discussing divergence in units of "years" but prefer generations, partly for this very problem of determining how long (temporally) a "generation" happens to be, and whether it changes over the course of evolution of organisms.

BTW, the "contributor" who submitted this new paper into PNAS, Svante Pääbo, is the guy who first showed the genetic commonalities between moderns and Neanderthals.

And, if these new calculations of the divergence times between Neanderthals and sapiens is correct at 800,000 years at the upper limit, then the new paper published today arguing for common ancestry being the sole reason for genetic similarities between Neanderthals and sapiens implies some very ancient split.

132 Achilles Tang  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:26:38pm

re: #130 b_sharp

I do tend to forget that, I grew up immersing myself in science, hung around with other nerds (when I wasn't hanging with the drug/alcohol fuelled group) and married a woman with similar interests.

Most of my life I have been surprised, I suppose I never learn well, how ignorant so many otherwise very smart people around me have been about the fundamentals of their reality; I suppose you can call it science, or physics, or just plain common sense.

133 SteveMcG  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:31:53pm

re: #132 Achilles Tang

Most of my life I have been surprised, I suppose I never learn well, how ignorant so many otherwise very smart people around me have been about the fundamentals of their reality; I suppose you can call it science, or physics, or just plain common sense.

I've often felt that ignorance was willful. Smart people learn so much and then they decide they've earned the right to take intellectual shortcuts. And I should emphasize willful because even when the information is in front of their faces, they decide to ignore it.

134 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:34:44pm

re: #132 Achilles Tang

Most of my life I have been surprised, I suppose I never learn well, how ignorant so many otherwise very smart people around me have been about the fundamentals of their reality; I suppose you can call it science, or physics, or just plain common sense.

Common sense is a slippery term. It's a result of what we've learned about the physical world by interacting with it combined with the personal knowledge base we learned from instruction. I find it an annoying term because so many on the right, at least those I've heard on the local talk show, use it as a magic method of assessing the truth of their beliefs, even when those beliefs run counter to science.

Their common sense is what informs them that psychology, climatology, and the new math are all full of crap.

135 engineer cat  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:35:10pm

re: #131 freetoken

Since I'm talking to myself here... I'll add this note for my records:

It was just last week in PNAS that another interesting human evolution paper appeared:

Generation times in wild chimpanzees and gorillas suggest earlier divergence times in great ape and human evolution

I never like reading/discussing divergence in units of "years" but prefer generations, partly for this very problem of determining how long (temporally) a "generation" happens to be, and whether it changes over the course of evolution of organisms.

BTW, the "contributor" who submitted this new paper into PNAS, Svante Pääbo, is the guy who first showed the genetic commonalities between moderns and Neanderthals.

And, if these new calculations of the divergence times between Neanderthals and sapiens is correct at 800,000 years at the upper limit, then the new paper published today arguing for common ancestry being the sole reason for genetic similarities between Neanderthals and sapiens implies some very ancient split.

neanderthals so it seems were the only homo species to develop from homo erectus outside of africa

they were the only native european hoomanz

136 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:38:55pm

I, for one, am proud to claim kinship with the great apes and our lesser cousins, the monkeys.
They have some unpleasant habits, to be sure, but every family has some of those.

137 Achilles Tang  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:39:14pm

re: #133 SteveMcG

I've often felt that ignorance was willful. Smart people learn so much and then they decide they've earned the right to take intellectual shortcuts. And I should emphasize willful because even when the information is in front of their faces, they decide to ignore it.

My classic example is years ago when my boss, who was a very smart guy in software and business, said a few things about how the space shuttle could hover over anywhere on the earth (after all it was weightless) and help the black helicopters navigate (paraphrasing).

Needless to say I kept my mouth shut.

138 Obdicut  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:40:02pm

re: #136 Shiplord Kirel

We should all settle our differences like bonobos.

139 freetoken  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:40:47pm

re: #135 engineer cat

Well, it's a tough question to nail down - where exactly does any given "species" arise?

And there is the embedded problem of what exactly is a "species".

This latest paper (on the genetic similarities between Neanderthals and moderns) proposes that North Africa was the region of last common ancestry.

However, Neanderthal skeletons are found in SW Asia. And it has long been thought that Homo heidelbergensis was the last common ancestor, and its remains are found in Europe as well as North Africa, while "modern" human skeletons are found from Northwest and East Africa.

The problem as far as fossils are concerned is the process of preservation is so rare that limited remains can be found... so the location of remains are only an approximation of extent of the organism.

140 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:40:50pm

re: #138 Obdicut

We should all settle our differences like bonobos.

Yeehaw!

141 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:41:21pm

Creation-nuts are fond of proclaiming that "my grandpa wasn't a monkey!" Well, my grandpa was a Mexican, which to them is probably worse. I loved him very much.

142 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:42:59pm

re: #138 Obdicut

We should all settle our differences like bonobos.

Well, maybe not all of us. I refuse to join a creationist orgy even if they promise to shut up forever afterward.

143 engineer cat  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:43:15pm

sigh

clueless dating service keeps on trying to fix me up with hippie-unfriendly types

one woman specified "must be a believing christian" so i told the service that i'm a, ahem, hebrew

then they write back saying she's willing to consider me as long as i'm not an... an... agnostic or anything

so i had to tell them i'm an atheist bwahahahahah

and for good measure i told them that i party with my hippie buddies at burning man

144 Achilles Tang  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:43:26pm

re: #131 freetoken

Since I'm talking to myself here... I'll add this note for my records:

It was just last week in PNAS that another interesting human evolution paper appeared:

Generation times in wild chimpanzees and gorillas suggest earlier divergence times in great ape and human evolution

I never like reading/discussing divergence in units of "years" but prefer generations, partly for this very problem of determining how long (temporally) a "generation" happens to be, and whether it changes over the course of evolution of organisms.

BTW, the "contributor" who submitted this new paper into PNAS, Svante Pääbo, is the guy who first showed the genetic commonalities between moderns and Neanderthals.

And, if these new calculations of the divergence times between Neanderthals and sapiens is correct at 800,000 years at the upper limit, then the new paper published today arguing for common ancestry being the sole reason for genetic similarities between Neanderthals and sapiens implies some very ancient split.

This story is not over. I thought there was good evidence that we have also the denisovans and the "hobbits" of Indonesia, quite recently.

145 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:47:56pm

re: #139 freetoken

Well, it's a tough question to nail down - where exactly does any given "species" arise?

And there is the embedded problem of what exactly is a "species".

This latest paper (on the genetic similarities between Neanderthals and moderns) proposes that North Africa was the region of last common ancestry.

However, Neanderthal skeletons are found in SW Asia. And it has long been thought that Homo heidelbergensis was the last common ancestor, and its remains are found in Europe as well as North Africa, while "modern" human skeletons are found from Northwest and East Africa.

The problem as far as fossils are concerned is the process of preservation is so rare that limited remains can be found... so the location of remains are only an approximation of extent of the organism.

Have you had a chance to speak to John Wilkins? He's discussed the problem with determining species a number of times on his blog and at t.o..

Getting the difficulty of finding fossils and the incredibly complex series of events necessary to form fossils through to a creationist is more difficult than learning calculus and linear math at the same time.

146 Obdicut  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:50:39pm

re: #144 Achilles Tang

I thought the hobbit turned out to just be a short dude.

147 engineer cat  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:50:48pm

re: #139 freetoken

Well, it's a tough question to nail down - where exactly does any given "species" arise?

And there is the embedded problem of what exactly is a "species".

This latest paper (on the genetic similarities between Neanderthals and moderns) proposes that North Africa was the region of last common ancestry.

However, Neanderthal skeletons are found in SW Asia. And it has long been thought that Homo heidelbergensis was the last common ancestor, and its remains are found in Europe as well as North Africa, while "modern" human skeletons are found from Northwest and East Africa.

The problem as far as fossils are concerned is the process of preservation is so rare that limited remains can be found... so the location of remains are only an approximation of extent of the organism.

i know that what is and isn't a different species is pretty vexed, so i go along with the point of view that lumps heidelbergensis and ergaster and a lot of others under erectus

148 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:51:38pm

re: #144 Achilles Tang

This story is not over. I thought there was good evidence that we have also the denisovans and the "hobbits" of Indonesia, quite recently.

The 'story' is just getting incredibly interesting.

149 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:52:06pm

re: #146 Obdicut

I thought the hobbit turned out to just be a short dude.

Still in question.

150 freetoken  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:52:16pm

re: #144 Achilles Tang

This story is not over. I thought there was good evidence that we have also the denisovans and the "hobbits" of Indonesia, quite recently.

Yes, I mentioned the former. However, the group that published this latest paper would argue that the Denisovan genetic evidence wouldn't change their particular findings about Neanderthals. However, that leaves open how the (later) Denisovan population could be solved.

The Denisovans are a problem anyway, because the bones discovered are in the middle of the continent, in southern Siberia, and the living populations with DNA in common with them live in the regions of Indonesia, which makes for one strange migration/interlude.

And, there are other archaic mixtures that are suggested by analysis of African population DNA, that is it's own curveball.

The "Hobbit" people, if they really were a population, are their own problem, one of an evolutionary spinoff from some Homo population, the details of which are not known.

151 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:52:38pm

re: #147 engineer cat

i know that what is and isn't a different species is pretty vexed, so i go along with the point of view that lumps heidelbergensis and ergaster and a lot of others under erectus

You're a lumper not a splitter.

152 freetoken  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:55:38pm

Human evolution is proving to be quite a thorny issue, independent of creationists.

It's pretty clear that, like other large groups of mammals, the Hominini have had periods where several differentiated populations coexisted.

This ought not be too surprising. After all, the cats do likewise, with many populations living simultaneously (and some can even interbreed), as with bears, the other major group of mammalian omnivores at the top of the land food chain.

153 Interesting Times  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:56:44pm

re: #150 freetoken

re: #151 b_sharp

Look what I just found on facebook. Glad at least some others take issue with that ridiculous "believe in" language.

154 engineer cat  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 5:56:48pm

re: #151 b_sharp

You're a lumper not a splitter.

exactamente

155 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:01:47pm

re: #153 Interesting Times

re: #151 b_sharp

Look what I just found on facebook. Glad at least some others take issue with that ridiculous "believe in" language.

Well, we do believe in evolution since we've come to the conclusion that it's the best explanation but the creationists insist on conflating two different definitions of 'believe'.

156 allegro  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:05:06pm

re: #153 Interesting Times

re: #151 b_sharp

Look what I just found on facebook. Glad at least some others take issue with that ridiculous "believe in" language.

That's why my standard response to "I don't believe in evolution" is that it is like not believing in gravity. Fortunately gravity doesn't care and keeps you from flying away anyway whether you believe in it or not.

157 allegro  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:06:11pm

re: #155 b_sharp

Well, we do believe in evolution since we've come to the conclusion that it's the best explanation but the creationists insist on conflating two different definitions of 'believe'.

Not quite. Evolution is. The only questions concern some specifics of the process.

158 engineer cat  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:08:12pm

actually, i'm less well briefed on the era before 40k BC, but i've done a lot of idle reading about europe 40k bc - 500 bc, as in

sapiens sapiens colonizes europe during the end of the ice age 40k BC - 10K bc

10k - 6000 mesolithic fishers and small game hunters, intensification of bow and arrow and dog domestication

6000 bc - 2000 bc european neolithic and the spread of farming from s.e. europe up through the danube valley and around the mediterranean; 4000 bc peaceful farming villages give way to more warlike society, megaliths in west, bronze comes to europe early

1000 bc greek dark ages and beginning of iron age. 600 bc celts spread throughout central & western europe; fancy metal working in balkans

159 RadicalModerate  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:10:03pm

Posting without comment.

Missouri National Guardsman gave combat training to white supremacists

... and it isn't the first time this sort of thing has happened there.

The AP notes, however, that another Missouri National Guardsman was fired from a state military honor guard last March, after co-workers described him as a self-proclaimed neo-Nazi who had tried to recruit them to the cause.

160 Only The Lurker Knows  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:12:24pm

Back. The Wife still gets Hamburger helper tonight. (20% fat) HB @ $3.37 a pound plus milk and butter and a store brand Pasta mix at 10 for $10.00.

Thanks Mitt. Don't know how I could of done it without You and Paul.

I am sure you and your Wife running Mate are enjoying your dinner as much as we are.

161 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:12:39pm

re: #157 allegro

Not quite. Evolution is. The only questions concern some specifics of the process.

The question of whether we believe in evolution or not has come up on PZ's blog and t.o. a number of times. I used to get annoyed at creationists when they claimed I 'believed' in evolution so according to them it was nothing more than a religion. Now I own up to it and specify the different basis I have in my belief from the basis they have which is basically faith.

162 Kragar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:16:01pm

Romney: Shootings Should Prompt ‘Thoughtful Consideration’ — Not Gun Control

“This tragedy raises once again the question of what can be done to help prevent events like this from occurring,” Romney said Monday. “I guess I’m not referring to any particular legislation. I’m just saying this is something that needs to make thoughtful consideration.”

The focus needs to be on the shooters, Romney said.

“They already had three of these tragedies in a row. I happen to believe this is not a matter of the weapon that is used. It’s a matter of the individuals,” he said. “And the choices these people make, and we have to understand how to prevent those kinds of choices from being made.”

I thoughtfully consider that Mitt should eat a bag of dicks.

163 allegro  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:17:02pm

re: #161 b_sharp

The question of whether we believe in evolution or not has come up on PZ's blog and t.o. a number of times. I used to get annoyed at creationists when they claimed I 'believed' in evolution so according to them it was nothing more than a religion. Now I own up to it and specify the different basis I have in my belief than the basis they have which is basically faith.

One only needs belief when there are no facts.

164 engineer cat  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:17:07pm

‘Thoughtful Consideration’

otherwise known as 'Intelligent Ignoring'

165 freetoken  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:17:46pm

re: #162 Kragar

“They already had three of these tragedies in a row. I happen to believe this is not a matter of the weapon that is used. It’s a matter of the individuals,” he said. “And the choices these people make, and we have to understand how to prevent those kinds of choices from being made.”

You mean, like actually having health care available to all, including mental health services?

166 Kragar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:18:43pm

re: #165 freetoken

You mean, like actually having health care available to all, including mental health services?

OFF THE TABLE!

167 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:18:43pm

re: #162 Kragar

Romney: Shootings Should Prompt ‘Thoughtful Consideration’ — Not Gun Control

I thoughtfully consider that Mitt should eat a bag of dicks.

Focusing on the shooters means better mental health care, better community organizing, resources, safety nets, etc. The GOP does not stand for that.

They don't give a shit about people who need help. Not one little shit.

(take away their food stamps, that will HELP!!)

168 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:19:05pm

re: #164 engineer cat

‘Thoughtful Consideration’

otherwise known as 'Intelligent Ignoring'

Let's be fair. It's proactive ignoring with specified information.

169 engineer cat  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:20:18pm

re: #168 b_sharp

Let's be fair. It's proactive ignoring with specified information.

as in the Agile Ignoring Methodology?

170 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:20:24pm

re: #167 Stanley Sea

Focusing on the shooters means better mental health care, better community organizing, resources, safety nets, etc. The GOP does not stand for that.

They don't give a shit about people who need help. Not one little shit.

(take away their food stamps, that will HELP!!)

As long as they can live in gated protected communities they're good with it.

171 freetoken  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:22:57pm

More on inter-species breeding - this PNAS paper comes just three days after Paabo put this up on the Arxiv:

The date of interbreeding between Neandertals and modern humans

Comparisons of DNA sequences between Neandertals and present-day humans have shown that Neandertals share more genetic variants with non-Africans than with Africans. This could be due to interbreeding between Neandertals and modern humans when the two groups met subsequent to the emergence of modern humans outside Africa. However, it could also be due to population structure that antedates the origin of Neandertal ancestors in Africa. We measure the extent of linkage disequilibrium (LD) in the genomes of present-day Europeans and find that the last gene flow from Neandertals (or their relatives) into Europeans likely occurred 37,000-86,000 years before the present (BP), and most likely 47,000-65,000 years ago. This supports the recent interbreeding hypothesis, and suggests that interbreeding may have occurred when modern humans carrying Upper Paleolithic technologies encountered Neandertals as they expanded out of Africa.

So we have an interesting duel going on here, in August 2012, over this whole issue.

Paabo et. al. are pushing forward with the recent interbreeding hypothesis, while the Cambridge group is pushing for simple common descent (though diverging a long time ago) as an explanation.

172 Interesting Times  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:24:08pm

re: #170 b_sharp

As long as they can live in gated protected communities they're good with it.

They'd better make sure those gated communities aren't anywhere near the coast:

New CryoSat-2 Confirms Catastrophic Loss of Arctic Sea Ice Volume

Image: piomas-trnd2-1.png

That's an ice-free Arctic in September by 2015, and a completely ice-free Arctic by 2030. Whatever we learn about prior human species, this much is clear: the last one standing won't be doing so much longer.

173 freetoken  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:27:22pm

Evolution, creation science taught in Rapides Parish private schools

Critics often assume religious schools teach only creationism and ignore evolution, however, that doesn't appear to be the case in Rapides Parish.

Science curricula are being scrutinized as some public school students make the move to private schools with state funds through the Louisiana Scholarship Program.

Eighty-seven Rapides Parish students will attend private schools through the statewide voucher program, which allows students to attend private schools using state funds if zoned to attend schools graded C, D or F.

At Holy Savior Menard Central High School in Alexandria, both evolution and creationism are taught, biology teacher Mike Cooper said.

[...]

This article is reframing the issue.

The real issue, the Constitutional and governmental issue, is whether public monies ought to be spent to spread sectarian religious dogma (creationism), not whether evolution happens to be added to the menu or not.

174 engineer cat  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:28:43pm

opinions on ayn rand medicare plan

take aways:

know more about, oppose it more

republicans most in favor with only 39% opposed, 35% in favor

that last one oughta tell you something...

175 Gus  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:29:11pm

re: #162 Kragar

Romney: Shootings Should Prompt ‘Thoughtful Consideration’ — Not Gun Control

I thoughtfully consider that Mitt should eat a bag of dicks.

This is a 7-11 bag-o-dicks isn't it?

176 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:29:55pm

re: #163 allegro

One only needs belief when there are no facts.

We're arguing using two different definitions. You're using the definition the creationists use where belief = faith which is non-fact based. I'm using the definition where belief means an idea has been internalized. I believe the Earth orbits the sun because I have been convinced by science. I believe there are many more disordered states than there are ordered states because I've spoken to a physicist who explained it to me in such a way I've accepted it as fact.

177 darthstar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:30:39pm

Saw this earlier, but didn't have time to post as today was my first day at my new job. It's going to be a challenge (for one, I just got my first Macbook Pro - HOW DO THEY WORK?)...when I posted on facebook that I was, holy crap, on a Mac, my wife said, "Laughed so hard I almost Peed my pants. Are you OK?" It's not nice to to make one's wife almost pee herself laughing...but she knows I've always been a Windows kind of guy. This is going to be fun.

Anyway, on to the tweet I saw:


178 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:31:19pm

re: #171 freetoken

More on inter-species breeding - this PNAS paper comes just three days after Paabo put this up on the Arxiv:

The date of interbreeding between Neandertals and modern humans

So we have an interesting duel going on here, in August 2012, over this whole issue.

Paabo et. al. are pushing forward with the recent interbreeding hypothesis, while the Cambridge group is pushing for simple common descent (though diverging a long time ago) as an explanation.

Don't you just love science?

179 freetoken  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:33:25pm

re: #178 b_sharp

Don't you just love science?

Yes.

I do think that the interbreeding hypothesis will win out, given we still have the Denisovan problem, the intra-Africa archaic admixture problem, and the morphological change in Neanderthals over time to deal with.

180 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:34:21pm

re: #175 Gus

This is a 7-11 bag-o-dicks isn't it?

To be fair, it's pretty hard to find a bag of dicks that are all locally-sourced.

181 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:35:21pm

re: #177 darthstar

Saw this earlier, but didn't have time to post as today was my first day at my new job. It's going to be a challenge (for one, I just got my first Macbook Pro - HOW DO THEY WORK?)...when I posted on facebook that I was, holy crap, on a Mac, my wife said, "Laughed so hard I almost Peed my pants. Are you OK?" It's not nice to to make one's wife almost pee herself laughing...but she knows I've always been a Windows kind of guy. This is going to be fun.

Anyway, on to the tweet I saw:

[Embedded content]

Congrats on the new gig, you will learn to love the apple. haha

182 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:36:00pm

re: #180 The Ghost of a Flea

To be fair, it's pretty hard to find a bag of dicks that are all locally-sourced.

They're frozen and imported. Plenty of those around.

183 freetoken  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:37:28pm

From that article about vouchers in LA public schools I linked:

Cooper focuses on the differences between the two theories, such as the age of the earth and how its existence began. He said public schools have the option to teach creation science as well but often teach only evolution.

He's either very stupid or just downright dishonest.

Human evolution challenges the heart of the belief system of many Americans, including most of Romney's and Ryan's "base".

Our ancestors have been around for a long time, differentiating, interbreeding, eventually going extinct.

184 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:37:34pm

re: #182 Stanley Sea

They're frozen and imported. Plenty of those around.

....but are they heirloom dicks?

185 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:39:32pm

re: #183 freetoken

From that article about vouchers in LA public schools I linked:

He's either very stupid or just downright dishonest.

Human evolution challenges the heart of the belief system of many Americans, including most of Romney's and Ryan's "base".

Our ancestors have been around for a long time, differentiating, interbreeding, eventually going extinct.

The separation between man and animal must be preserved.

186 darthstar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:40:00pm

re: #184 The Ghost of a Flea

....but are they heirloom dicks?

Those are usually misshapen and come in weird colors...oh, wait, I'm thinking about tomatoes.

187 darthstar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:40:52pm
188 Gus  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:42:05pm

Pathetic.

Click on the links to find out why!

189 darthstar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:42:13pm

So, just how much drug money is in the Romney war chest?

190 freetoken  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:42:18pm

re: #187 darthstar

re: #177 darthstar

Don't stop now Mitt, you're on a roll.

191 Interesting Times  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:42:28pm

I. THE LAND SPEAKS FOR ITSELF

I spoke to the land.

And I asked the land what it wanted, and I asked the land what it needed (which, in the end, turned out to be the same thing).

And a chorus of voices rose up in harmony, as if pleased to be asked.

The land said it needed trees and grasses. And the trees and grasses said that they needed soil. And the soil said that it needed fungi, and bacteria, and nematodes, and springtails, and beetles, and worms, and mice, and countless other creatures. And all these creatures said that they needed rain.

And then the birds sang out. They sang out that they needed insects and spiders. And the insects and spiders sang out that they needed a wild garden. And the wild garden sang out that it needed wolves to protect it from the deer. And the deer also sang out that they needed wolves. And the wolves sang out that they needed plenty of healthy land on which to roam.

And then the rocks spoke, deep and rumbling. They said they needed to sleep a long, long time in the darkness. And that that was all they needed.

And there were still other voices -- many other voices -- that I could not understand. Voices of water and clouds and wind; voices of frogs and raccoons and snakes. And many, many other voices, no doubt, that I could not hear.

But of the voices I heard and understood, I asked why they needed all these things.

And they laughed.

They laughed a long time.

And then they cried.

They cried for a very long time.

And then they were silent.

They were silent for a very, very long time.

And then they spoke.

And they said this: “We need these things to live. We want to live.”

II. THE PEOPLE OF THE MACHINES SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES

Then I went to speak to the people of the machines.

And I asked them what they wanted, and I asked them what they needed. But they really only understood the first part – what they wanted. So all their ‘wants’ they called their ‘needs.’

And their strained, tuneless voices rose up frantically in a great din.

And the people of the machines said that they needed the trees and grasses removed. And they needed the soil loosened and carted away. And they needed to kill the fungi, and bacteria, and nematodes, and springtails, and beetles, and worms, and mice, and countless other creatures. And they said they needed -- somehow -- to control the rain.

And they cried out that they needed the birds to leave; there were too many and they were in the wrong places. They needed them to go to someplace else. And they needed to kill the insects and spiders. And the wild gardens would need to be plowed under. And that all available land must be filled up and ‘developed.’ And the wolves, of course, needed to be shot. But that the deer were to be saved in great multitudes as living targets in the space remaining -- in order, of course, to practice their killing.

And they would need to dig up and break the great rocks, and to pile them up in heaps in the full light of day. And they would need to separate their remaining wholeness into parts. And they would place the parts in separate piles to be used later. Or they would burn them to power their machines. They grew very excited when describing this. It seemed to make them happy.

And then I asked them why they needed all these things.

And their eyes darkened and their faces reddened.

And they grew very angry.

And they screamed at me.

And they threatened me with violence.

And they told me I was crazy.

And they demanded an apology.

But then, briefly lifting my cowering face, I looked into their eyes.

And I saw that they were scared.

And I knew then that they did not know why they needed these things.

[cont'd]

192 Interesting Times  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:42:38pm

III. THE PEOPLE OF THE MACHINES SPEAK FOR THE LAND

Then, when I had regained my courage, I spoke again to the people of the machines.

I said, “Tell me, what does the land need? What does it want?”

And I quickly cowered again and shielded my face.

But now they did not grow angry, nor did they lash out, nor did their eyes show fear.

They just smiled and put their hands on my head. And they told me that the land cannot need or want anything.

They said, “It is just land. That is all.”

IV. THE LAND SPEAKS FOR THE PEOPLE OF THE MACHINES

Then I returned and spoke again to the land.

I said, “Tell me, what do the people of the machines want?”

And I waited a very long time in silence.

And when the land finally spoke it said this: “We do not know for sure what they want.”

“But we think they want to die.”

193 Gus  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:43:29pm

re: #189 darthstar

So, just how much drug money is in the Romney war chest?

I'm sure there's plenty by way of Sheldon Adelson.

Subject to verification of course. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

194 jaunte  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:43:33pm

re: #187 darthstar

"Bermudez's criminal past was first reported on the website of the Miami New Times newspaper. It said the charge stemmed from a conspiracy involving more than one ton of cocaine imported from Trinidad to ports in south Florida."

!

195 darthstar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:43:35pm

re: #188 Gus

Pathetic.

Click on the links to find out why!

I like this reply...

196 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:44:33pm

Texas shooter ID'd as Thomas Caffall

Facebook page

"Inspirational people" include
Vasily Zaytsev, Carlos Hathcock, Eugene Stoner, and William Shakespeare.

Mother said her son had "mental difficulties"

197 Obdicut  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:45:03pm

re: #194 jaunte

One ton?

That's like 25 million bucks.

Why is Romney hanging with such a small-potatoes player?

/

198 Obdicut  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:45:27pm

re: #196 What Would Spalding Gray Do?

Are you sure that's the right Tomas Caffall?

199 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:45:29pm

re: #184 The Ghost of a Flea

....but are they heirloom dicks?

For a premium.

200 Gus  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:45:32pm

re: #196 What Would Spalding Gray Do?

Texas shooter ID'd as Thomas Caffall

Facebook page

"Inspirational people" include
Vasily Zaytsev, Carlos Hathcock, Eugene Stoner, and William Shakespeare.

Mother said her son had "mental difficulties"

Ugh.

201 engineer cat  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:45:33pm

Why Mitt Romney ignored his own pollster to pick Paul Ryan

just the headline 'splains a lot

202 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:45:39pm

re: #188 Gus

Pathetic.

Click on the links to find out why!

Is Twitchy a parody site?

203 Gus  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:46:07pm

re: #202 b_sharp

Is Twitchy a parody site?

Nope. They're for reals. It's a project of that weirdo Michelle Malkin.

204 darthstar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:46:25pm

re: #202 b_sharp

Is Twitchy a parody site?

It's Malkin's pleasure palace.

205 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:47:32pm

re: #202 b_sharp

Is Twitchy a parody site?

No. It is the dipstick in the butthole of wingnuttery.

206 Gus  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:47:33pm

re: #204 darthstar

It's Malkin's pleasure palace.

Hey! Ryan works for TPM. He was being sarcastic by saying "scandal."

207 Kragar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:47:38pm

re: #201 engineer cat

Why Mitt Romney ignored his own pollster to pick Paul Ryan

just the headline 'splains a lot

Because Bryan Fischer, Adelson and the Kochs gave him his orders.

208 darthstar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:48:31pm

re: #206 Gus

Hey! Ryan works for TPM. He was being sarcastic by saying "scandal."

Oops...My bad.

209 Gus  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:49:14pm

re: #208 darthstar

Oops...My bad.

Tell him you're sorry! ;)

210 Big Joe  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:50:31pm

In other news, Wikipedia is a liberal blog.

211 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:50:33pm

re: #190 freetoken

re: #177 darthstar

Don't stop now Mitt, you're on a roll.

And more!

212 darthstar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:50:37pm

re: #209 Gus

Tell him you're sorry! ;)

Deleted the tweet and posted a mea culpa already.

213 Achilles Tang  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:51:03pm

re: #146 Obdicut

I thought the hobbit turned out to just be a short dude.

Indeed, that is the abbreviated description.

214 jaunte  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:51:29pm

re: #210 Big Joe

In other news, Wikipedia is a liberal blog.

Pat Boone, Glenn Beck, and Paul Ryan agree, liberals are like cancer.

215 Gus  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:51:50pm

re: #196 What Would Spalding Gray Do?

Texas shooter ID'd as Thomas Caffall

Facebook page

"Inspirational people" include
Vasily Zaytsev, Carlos Hathcock, Eugene Stoner, and William Shakespeare.

Mother said her son had "mental difficulties"

I know you're not supposed to feel sorry for these guys. Still, this crap makes me sad.

216 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:51:57pm

re: #203 Gus

Nope. They're for reals. It's a project of that weirdo Michelle Malkin.

The loons are coming out of the woodwork.

217 darthstar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:52:13pm
218 Gus  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:53:58pm

re: #216 b_sharp

The loons are coming out of the woodwork.

That's former Romney adviser (short lived because he's gay) Richard Grenell in there too. Pathetic aye? That this idiot was actually advising a man who could be president.

219 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:54:01pm

re: #214 jaunte

Pat Boone, Glenn Beck, and Paul Ryan agree, liberals are like cancer.

It's good to know we've destroyed western civilization.

220 Achilles Tang  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:54:25pm

re: #153 Interesting Times

re: #151 b_sharp

Look what I just found on facebook. Glad at least some others take issue with that ridiculous "believe in" language.

Yes, the word believe is often mistaken for understand. Synonyms they are not.

221 darthstar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:55:07pm
222 Gus  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:57:32pm

I believe in math!

//

223 blueraven  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:57:51pm

re: #196 What Would Spalding Gray Do?

Texas shooter ID'd as Thomas Caffall

Facebook page

"Inspirational people" include
Vasily Zaytsev, Carlos Hathcock, Eugene Stoner, and William Shakespeare.

Mother said her son had "mental difficulties"

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224 darthstar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:58:24pm

I went and visited my half pig today...but it's still hanging out with the other half for a couple more weeks...they're about 200lbs right now. So we should get a good 100lbs of meat after boning.

Image: 531088_10151115361568024_1554344859_n.jpg

225 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 6:59:16pm

re: #224 darthstar

I went and visited my half pig today...but it's still hanging out with the other half for a couple more weeks...they're about 200lbs right now. So we should get a good 100lbs of meat after boning.

Image: 531088_10151115361568024_1554344859_n.jpg

Are you going to take part in the slaughter?

226 Kragar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 7:00:14pm

re: #222 Gus

I believe in math!

//

But can you count to potato?

227 jaunte  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 7:00:49pm

re: #222 Gus

I believe in math!

//

(Under Paul Ryan's plan) if Harry Reid was lying about Romney's tax bill, it was only 0.82% of a lie.

228 darthstar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 7:01:10pm

re: #225 b_sharp

Are you going to take part in the slaughter?

I would, but my schedule won't allow. Wife just told me yesterday that she bought us a half pig. I've butchered a lot of animals...it's actually quite rewarding work.

229 Kragar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 7:02:12pm

re: #196 What Would Spalding Gray Do?

Texas shooter ID'd as Thomas Caffall

Facebook page

"Inspirational people" include
Vasily Zaytsev, Carlos Hathcock, Eugene Stoner, and William Shakespeare.

Mother said her son had "mental difficulties"

Sounds like a real loser.

230 Gus  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 7:03:53pm

I see you re-Retweeting!

231 darthstar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 7:03:54pm

Romney's not alone in courting criminals...

232 prairiefire  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 7:04:45pm

re: #230 Gus

I see you re-Retweeting!

[Embedded content]

Aw, Stanley will be disappointed.

233 darthstar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 7:05:49pm
234 b_sharp  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 7:08:39pm

re: #228 darthstar

I would, but my schedule won't allow. Wife just told me yesterday that she bought us a half pig. I've butchered a lot of animals...it's actually quite rewarding work.

I think more people should take part in the processing of their food animals.

235 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 7:24:12pm

re: #230 Gus

I see you re-Retweeting!

[Embedded content]

Yeah, yeah, unavailable. Kudos to him.

236 darthstar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 7:25:03pm

re: #234 b_sharp

I think more people should take part in the processing of their food animals.

Agreed.

237 darthstar  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 7:26:14pm

re: #234 b_sharp

I think more people should take part in the processing of their food animals.

I did cut my own head of lettuce, pick my own green beans, and pull my own carrots and turnips while I was there..as well as a few other vegetables.

238 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 7:28:11pm

re: #237 darthstar

I did cut my own head of lettuce, pick my own green beans, and pull my own carrots and turnips while I was there..as well as a few other vegetables.

I heard that scientists heard a scream when they monitored the cutting of a head of lettuce,

239 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 7:45:40pm

re: #6 Bulworth

My favorite part of the Bible is the story of Moses and King David drilling for oil. //

There is a rather odd story with Elijah, and water that burns...

240 Mich-again  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 9:37:13pm
So the more of that there is in the air the more the crops grow and the cheaper the food is around the world, this actually helps especially the poor.

Not so much. Do these fucking home schooled idiots realize that photosynthesis ceases to occur altogether when it gets too hot and dry?

241 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 14, 2012 9:25:11am
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