We’ve Come Too Far to Turn Back Now

It’s your Saturday morning Barack barn-burner speech
Politics • Views: 24,925
YouTube Video

Four years ago as I had the privilege to travel all across this country and meet Americans from all walks of life.

I decided nobody else should have to endure the heartbreak of a broken health care system. No one in the wealthiest nation on earth should go broke because they get sick.

Nobody should have to tell their daughters or sons the decisions they can and cannot make for themselves are constrained because of some politicians in Washington.

And thanks to you we’ve made a difference in people’s lives. Thanks to you there are folks that I meet today who have gotten care and their cancer’s been caught. And they’ve got treatment. And they are living full lives and it happened because of you.

We’ve come too far to turn back now. We’ve got too much work to do to implement health care. We’ve got too much work to do to create good jobs.

We’ve got too many teachers that we’ve got to hire. We’ve got too many schools that we’ve got to rebuild. We’ve got too many students who still need affordable higher education.

There’s more homegrown energy to generate. There more troops that we’ve got to bring home.

There more doors of opportunity we’ve got to open to anybody who is willing to work hard and walk through those doors.

We’ve got to keep building an economy where no matter what you look like or where you come from, you can make it here if you try.

And you can leave something behind for the next generation, that’s what at stake right now Colorado. That’s why I’m running for President of the United States of America.

That’s why I’m asking for your vote. I still believe in you. And if you still believe in me, and if you’re willing to stand with me, and knock on some doors with me, and make some phone calls with me, and talk to your neighbor and friends about what’s at stake—we will win this election. We will finish what we started.

And we’ll remind the world why America is the greatest nation on earth.

God bless you and God bless the United States of America.

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254 comments
1 makeitstopghazi  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:19:53am

Mitt Romney could never, ever credibly deliver a speech like this. The concept of 'the common good' is utterly alien to him, his running mate, and those who would be gullible enough to cast a vote for him.

Romney cannot run on such a vision. He and Ryan have no way to relate to it, and as a result their vision deals with what they would take away from the American people rather than what they would offer to enrich living in this country.

2 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:23:13am

I completely understand why our conservatives get upset when videos like this are posted at LGF -- because this is powerful stuff right here.

3 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:24:54am

re: #2 Charles Johnson

I completely understand why our conservatives get upset when videos like this are posted at LGF -- because this is powerful stuff right here.

It's also some nice evidence of how Obama is a much better leader than Romney could ever dream to be.

4 CuriousLurker  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:27:51am

Man on fire. Damn, can he give a good speech.

5 bratwurst  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:33:00am

Unimaginative!!! Must post some National Review articles for balance!!!
/

6 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:33:20am

re: #5 bratwurst

rofl

7 dragonfire1981  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:38:16am

Allow me to present the wingnut responses to this speech:

I decided nobody else should have to endure the heartbreak of a broken health care system. No one in the wealthiest nation on earth should go broke because they get sick.

Nobody should have to tell their daughters or sons the decisions they can and cannot make for themselves are constrained because of some politicians in Washington.

And thanks to you we’ve made a difference in people’s lives. Thanks to you there are folks that I meet today who have gotten care and their cancer’s been caught. And they’ve got treatment. And they are living full lives and it happened because of you.

DEATH PANELS!!! BLARGH!!!

We’ve come too far to turn back now. We’ve got too much work to do to implement health care. We’ve got too much work to do to create good jobs.

We’ve got too many teachers that we’ve got to hire. We’ve got too many schools that we’ve got to rebuild. We’ve got too many students who still need affordable higher education.

INDOCTRINATION!!! Evil!!

There’s more homegrown energy to generate. There more troops that we’ve got to bring home.

There more doors of opportunity we’ve got to open to anybody who is willing to work hard and walk through those doors.

We’ve got to keep building an economy where no matter what you look like or where you come from, you can make it here if you try.

Carbon tax!! YOU DIDN'T BUILD THAT!!

And you can leave something behind for the next generation, that’s what at stake right now Colorado. That’s why I’m running for President of the United States of America.

That’s why I’m asking for your vote. I still believe in you. And if you still believe in me, and if you’re willing to stand with me, and knock on some doors with me, and make some phone calls with me, and talk to your neighbor and friends about what’s at stake—we will win this election. We will finish what we started.

And we’ll remind the world why America is the greatest nation on earth.

God bless you and God bless the United States of America.

EVIL KENYAN MUSLIM DICTATOR OUT TO DESTROY AMERICA!!!

8 blueraven  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:39:05am

Fired Up...Ready to Go!

Oh, and the Ryan "bounce" was a dead cat.
Rasmussen has Obama up by 2, after weeks of being behind. Rasmussen!

9 bratwurst  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:39:14am
10 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:40:34am

re: #8 blueraven

Fired Up...Ready to Go!

Oh, and the Ryan "bounce" was a dead cat.
Rasmussen has Obama up by 2, after weeks of being behind. Rasmussen!

Just wait till people get to know him more. Shit though even the Palin pick had some positive bounce for McCain.

11 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:41:22am

It's a good reminder to us lefties that we're all in this together, and that we can't just hope for change, and moan and complain when shit ain't changin' as fast as we would like it to.

The other side has lost it's collective mind, and will continue to tie his hands unless we have his back.
He has a pen, not a magic wand.

12 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:41:50am

I like the coat-less, rolled-up sleeves. It helps to show he is in the job working while he is campaigning.

What is Romney doing besides campaigning?

13 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:42:20am

The Morning Joe crew really needs to stop saying that Obama has a problem connecting with people and doesn't like campaigning. He likes and connects with people just fine. He just doesn't like the media and their bullshit narratives. He likes people, campaigning and governing just fine.

What the MSM is really pissed off about is that he has refused to accept their conventional wisdom that his reelection chances were doomed and is not only fighting back, but going on offense. You only hear about how nasty elections are from the press when Democrats come out of their defensive crouch and bring bazookas to the gun fight. Obama is still hopey and changey he's just had it with the GOP's crap.

14 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:43:44am

re: #13 moderatelyradicalliberal

The Morning Joe crew really needs to stop saying that Obama has a problem connecting with people and doesn't like campaigning. He likes and connects with people just fine. He just doesn't like the media and their bullshit narratives. He likes people, campaigning and governing just fine.

What the MSM is really pissed off about is that he has refused to accept their conventional wisdom that his reelection chances were doomed and is not only fighting back, but going on offense. You only hear about how nasty elections are from the press when Democrats come out of their defensive crouch and bring bazookas to the gun fight. Obama is still hopey and changey he's just had it with the GOP's crap.

Seems like spin. Really he seems to have fun campaigning in my observations. Did you hear about the beer story? That's something I can't imagine Romney doing even if Romney wasn't a teetotaler.

15 blueraven  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:44:06am

re: #10 HappyWarrior

Just wait till people get to know him more. Shit though even the Palin pick had some positive bounce for McCain.

Yes, until Charlie Gibson and Katie Couric started in with those gotcha questions!

16 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:45:14am

re: #15 blueraven

Yes, until Charlie Gibson and Katie Couric started in with those gotcha questions!

Yep gotcha questions like what magazines do you read or name some important Supreme Court decisions (If I recall, she only could name Roe)

17 abolitionist  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:45:45am

re: #15 blueraven

Yes, until Charlie Gibson and Katie Couric started in with those gotcha questions!

Couric: "What magazines do you read?"
Palin: "All of them."
lol

18 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:45:51am

re: #12 ggt

I like the coat-less, rolled-up sleeves. It helps to show he is in the job working while he is campaigning.

What is Romney doing besides campaigning?

Hell, he's barely campaigning. I think it says a lot that Ms. Ann is over in Wales. She knows she won't be FLOTUS and is over it.

19 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:46:26am

If I were Trump, Rove, Rush, etc., I'd hate Obama's ass too...
sings{{Sooo hawt}}!!!

20 Gus  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:46:43am

re: #13 moderatelyradicalliberal

The Morning Joe crew really needs to stop saying that Obama has a problem connecting with people and doesn't like campaigning. He likes and connects with people just fine. He just doesn't like the media and their bullshit narratives. He likes people, campaigning and governing just fine.

What the MSM is really pissed off about is that he has refused to accept their conventional wisdom that his reelection chances were doomed and is not only fighting back, but going on offense. You only hear about how nasty elections are from the press when Democrats come out of their defensive crouch and bring bazookas to the gun fight. Obama is still hopey and changey he's just had it with the GOP's crap.

Of course. Morning Joe and Joe Scarborough, Republican.

21 CuriousLurker  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:46:46am

re: #14 HappyWarrior

Seems like spin. Really he seems to have fun campaigning in my observations. Did you hear about the beer story? That's something I can't imagine Romney doing even if Romney wasn't a teetotaler.

Same here. I always got the impression that he really enjoyed being out on the campaign trail and being around people, giving speeches, etc. I remember when he first became POTUS he used to complain about being kept in "the bubble".

22 jaunte  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:47:01am
There more doors of opportunity we’ve got to open to anybody who is willing to work hard and walk through those doors.

We’ve got to keep building an economy where no matter what you look like or where you come from, you can make it here if you try.

In contrast to this positive, quintessentially American message, the conservative alternative is to bring back the shame-based society.
Forbes On Fox Panelist: "Why Can't We Make Someone Feel Embarrassed" For Being On Welfare?

23 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:47:36am

re: #18 moderatelyradicalliberal

Hell, he's barely campaigning. I think it says a lot that Ms. Ann is over in Wales. She knows she won't be FLOTUS and is over it.

Yeah, if she were serious, she'd be in country or if not, she'd be doing human rights work somewhere.

Reminds me of Teresa Heinz Kerry.

24 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:48:15am

re: #22 jaunte

In contrast to this positive, quintessentially American message, the conservative alternative is to bring back the shame-based society.
Forbes On Fox Panelist: "Why Can't We Make Someone Feel Embarrassed" For Being On Welfare?

I think being made into a cheap campaign gimmick attack by a president is embarrassing enough.

25 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:48:38am

re: #22 jaunte

In contrast to this positive, quintessentially American message, the conservative alternative is to bring back the shame-based society.
Forbes On Fox Panelist: "Why Can't We Make Someone Feel Embarrassed" For Being On Welfare?

Because in this economy people are needing help in numbers greater than we've seen in a long time. Most, not because they are lazy, but because Wall Street is greedy.

26 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:49:27am

re: #21 CuriousLurker

Same here. I always got the impression that he really enjoyed being out on the campaign trail and being around people, giving speeches, etc. I remember when he first became POTUS he used to complain about being kept in "the bubble".

He seems to really enjoy the more fun parts of being president. Like I went to an Irish pub in DC on St. Patrick's Day and it turned out Obama had been there with his 8th cousin who still lives in Ireland. There was a picture of them together.

27 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:50:33am

re: #14 HappyWarrior

Seems like spin. Really he seems to have fun campaigning in my observations. Did you hear about the beer story? That's something I can't imagine Romney doing even if Romney wasn't a teetotaler.

You mean him taking his home brew everywhere he goes? Yeah that's kinda cool and I don't even like beer.

28 allegro  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:50:45am

re: #25 ggt

Because in this economy people are needing help in numbers greater than we've seen in a long time. Most, not because they are lazy, but because Wall Street is greedy.

Much in thanks to the Republican Golden Showers theory of economics.

29 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:50:50am

re: #18 moderatelyradicalliberal

Hell, he's barely campaigning. I think it says a lot that Ms. Ann is over in Wales. She knows she won't be FLOTUS and is over it.

I think she is resigned to it and I think he may to be a degree too. I dunno but it seems to me that neither of those two even try to be personable.

30 Charleston Chew  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:52:22am

re: #13 moderatelyradicalliberal

The Morning Joe crew really needs to stop saying that Obama has a problem connecting with people and doesn't like campaigning. He likes and connects with people just fine. He just doesn't like the media and their bullshit narratives. He likes people, campaigning and governing just fine.

What the MSM is really pissed off about is that he has refused to accept their conventional wisdom that his reelection chances were doomed and is not only fighting back, but going on offense. You only hear about how nasty elections are from the press when Democrats come out of their defensive crouch and bring bazookas to the gun fight. Obama is still hopey and changey he's just had it with the GOP's crap.

The President seems to compartmentalize being the Head of The Executive and being a campainging politician. I do get the feeling that after he was elected he was relieved to be done with it and could now get down to business, which is why he didn't sell health care as well as he could have.

But Campaign Obama has come out of retirement. When he has to do something, he does it right.

31 b_snark  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:53:09am

re: #9 bratwurst

[Embedded content]

Isn't the name 'Rage Against the Machine' a hint at the band's politics? How could anyone on the right miss that?

32 allegro  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:54:39am

re: #29 HappyWarrior

I think she is resigned to it and I think he may to be a degree too. I dunno but it seems to me that neither of those two even try to be personable.

One can't try to be personable. You are or you ain't. For Obama, it's natural because he genuinely, sincerely likes and respects people. You can see it when he's with the crowds - especially with kids (you can't fake it with kids). When Romney tries, he just looks even more stiff and uncomfortable and seems to always say exactly the wrong thing. He clearly does not like people and can't even pretend that he does.

33 Charleston Chew  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:55:06am

re: #18 moderatelyradicalliberal

Hell, he's barely campaigning. I think it says a lot that Ms. Ann is over in Wales. She knows she won't be FLOTUS and is over it.

I suspect that if you compare the First Family and the Romneys, while they are all smart competent people, one of those families has had to fight a little harder every day of their lives.

34 Gus  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:55:31am

re: #31 b_sharp

Isn't the name 'Rage Against the Machine' a hint at the band's politics? How could anyone on the right miss that?

Their tin ear works in many ways.

35 jaunte  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:55:52am
Paul Ryan, a champion of changing Medicare, spoke as a passionate defender Saturday, promising seniors that he and Mitt Romney would save it, and he introduced his mother to voters to drive home the point that the health program "was there for our family" and "we have to keep that guarantee."
[Link: www.chron.com...]

Guaranteed coupons for everybody!

36 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:56:11am

re: #31 b_sharp

Isn't the name 'Rage Against the Machine' a hint at the band's politics? How could anyone on the right miss that?

Well this is the guy who claimed to be inspired by Rand and had a very socially conservative voting record. Cognitive dissonance is part of how he operates I suppose.

37 blueraven  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:57:21am

re: #34 Gus

Their tin ear works in many ways.

Fits in well with their tin cup economic philosophy

38 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:57:50am

re: #34 Gus

Hey Gus - I notice you found a bunch of good links on that Breivik imitator story. If you Page it, I'll promote it to the front page. (I'm bug-hunting and don't have time right now.)

39 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:58:06am

re: #32 allegro

One can't try to be personable. You are or you ain't. For Obama, it's natural because he genuinely, sincerely likes and respects people. You can see it when he's with the crowds - especially with kids (you can't fake it with kids). When Romney tries, he just looks even more stiff and uncomfortable and seems to always say exactly the wrong thing. He clearly does not like people and can't even pretend that he does.

Yeah, you're right. I think when he tries, it ends up looking even worse for him. And I think it was an indicator of how tone deaf they are to regular people when they thought using Mrs. Romney would humanize him. I think in several ways she's reenforced and strengthened the image many have of him as a snob who thinks he's better than everyone else.

40 makeitstopghazi  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:58:27am

I heard a snippet of a Ryan stump speech on the radio last night.

Damn, he sounds whiny.

And for what it's worth, I don't think Obama has hit his campaign stride yet. By the middle of September he'll really be in prime form, and Rmoney will look even worse by comparison.

41 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:59:10am

Translation: "We've still got too much government to grow! If we don't, you'll all be put in chain by corporate overlords!!1"

Typical Obaloney.

42 blueraven  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:00:04am

re: #38 Charles Johnson

Hey Gus - I notice you found a bunch of good links on that Breivik imitator story. If you Page it, I'll promote it to the front page. (I'm bug-hunting and don't have time right now.)

I have a few scorpions that need exterminating. /

43 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:00:05am

re: #41 Dark_Falcon

Translation: "We've still got too much government to grow! If we don't, you'll all be put in chain by corporate overlords!!1"

Typical Obaloney.

Yeah hiring more teachers is such a terrible thing. Come on man.

44 Amory Blaine  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:00:41am

Paul Ryan Slams Obama For Not Saving Auto Plant That Closed Under Bush

Paul Ryan slammed President Obama on Thursday for failing to rescue an auto factory in his Wisconsin district — one that closed in 2008, under President George W. Bush.

The latest attack highlights the complicated politics of the auto rescue for Ryan, who was one of only a handful of Republicans to vote in favor of the 2008 bailout that President Bush signed as a stopgap measure to prevent the industry from going under.

“I remember President Obama visiting it when he was first running, saying he’ll keep that plant open,” Ryan said in Ohio Thursday, describing the shuttered GM factory in Janesville, Wis. “One more broken promise.”

Ryan blamed rising gas prices under Obama for the closing. He echoed the complaint in an interview with a local ABC affiliate, suggesting it showed that Obama’s auto rescue was a sham.

“It didn’t help Janesville,” he said. “They shut our plant down. It didn’t help Kenosha. I represent there; they shut down the Chrysler plant.”

The Detroit News noted that Obama said during a visit in early 2008 that government help and some restructuring could keep the plant open. But after the financial crisis and a collapse in demand for the SUVs the factory produced, it shut down in December 2008 in the waning days of Bush’s second term. It’s still owned by GM, but has been closed ever since.

Paul Ryan, keeping the campaign full of lies like a good little boy.

Someone should remind the Ayn Rand sycophant of his bosses position.

Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

-Mitt Romney

45 makeitstopghazi  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:01:26am

re: #43 HappyWarrior

Yeah hiring more teachers is such a terrible thing. Come on man.

Hey, they won't vote Republican if they aren't stupid.
/

46 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:01:26am

There is no competition of ideas where only one side makes it's ideas clear. I don't recall that being a problem with the previous conservative candidates for President such as Dole, either Bush, or Reagan. Those men made their intentions & proposals clear.

From CNN
Romney has for months touted an ambitious plan that promises massive tax cuts. He has also steadfastly refused to say how he would pay for them.

Romney has proposed a 20% across-the-board cut to income tax rates. He also wants to scrap the Alternative Minimum Tax, eliminate the estate tax and chop the tax rate paid by corporations from 35% to 25%.

All those cuts mean the government would collect far less revenue. Romney claims his plan will make up the difference in-part by limiting deductions, exemptions and credits currently available to top-level income earners.

But he hasn't lifted the curtain on which deductions he is planning to curtai

47 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:01:30am

re: #44 Amory Blaine

Paul Ryan Slams Obama For Not Saving Auto Plant That Closed Under Bush

Paul Ryan, keeping the campaign full of lies like a good little boy.

Someone should remind the Ayn Rand sycophant of his bosses position.

This is up there with that one Congressman who wanted to impeach Obama for giving Russia an island that was given to them in the H.W Bush years.

48 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:01:33am

re: #33 Charleston Chew

I suspect that if you compare the First Family and the Romneys, while they are all smart competent people, one of those families has had to fight a little harder every day of their lives.

I guess so. For people who don't come from money or good connections part of becoming successful is developing people skills. You have to get people to like and trust you in order for them to give you a shot. And the birther nonsense aside, Barack Obama does have an unusual background with wildly diverse experiences (Hawaii, Indonesia, Harvard, Chicago's South Side, Wash, D.C.), so he was either going to be an outsider all of his life or adapt socially and culturally to his environment. He did the latter and it has served him very well.

49 blueraven  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:01:56am

re: #41 Dark_Falcon

Translation: "We've still got too much government to grow! If we don't, you'll all be put in chain by corporate overlords!!1"

Typical Obaloney.

Fixed

50 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:03:39am

re: #35 jaunte

Guaranteed coupons for everybody!

I call them GOPons. So Ryan is really campaigning with his mommy. I admit I didn't believe it when I heard about it. If Paul Ryan thinks his plan is so awesome why doesn't he offer to start with his own mother and give her the very first GOPon to go by health insurance in the private market?

51 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:05:18am

re: #50 moderatelyradicalliberal

I call them GOPons. So Ryan is really campaigning with his mommy. I admit I didn't believe it when I heard about it. If Paul Ryan thinks his plan is so awesome why doesn't he offer to start with his own mother and give her the very first GOPon to go by health insurance in the private market?

I've always wondered if government run insurance is such a great evil, why more of these guys once they get elected don't just stay on their current plans? Instead we have stories about incoming Tea Party congresspeople asking for the health care benefits of being a member of Congress before they're even sworn in. I think it's shit like that really makes me thing alot of this anti health care is based not in principle but more of a "Fuck you, I got mine" mentality.

52 abolitionist  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:05:35am

re: #43 HappyWarrior

Yeah hiring more teachers is such a terrible thing. Come on man.

I'm getting a sense that GOP strategy is to hire more new teachers (at low pay), to replace many that have several years of experience. Many New York City Teachers Denied Tenure in Policy Shift

Nearly half of New York City teachers reaching the end of their probations were denied tenure this year, the Education Department said on Friday, marking the culmination of years of efforts toward Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg’s goal to end “tenure as we know it.”

And it's not just NYC. It's across the US.

53 Amory Blaine  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:06:06am

re: #50 moderatelyradicalliberal

I call them GOPons. So Ryan is really campaigning with his mommy. I admit I didn't believe it when I heard about it. If Paul Ryan thinks his plan is so awesome why doesn't he offer to start with his own mother and give her the very first GOPon to go by health insurance in the private market?

I agree if it's such a great fucking plan, start it right away. Aren't we insolvent or bankrupt? I thought it was an emergency of historic proportions. Fuck the 10 year wait. Do it now.

54 jaunte  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:06:07am

re: #51 HappyWarrior

...incoming Tea Party congresspeople asking for the health care benefits of being a member of Congress before they're even sworn in. I think it's shit like that really makes me thing alot of this anti health care is based not in principle...

Exactly.

55 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:06:24am

re: #41 Dark_Falcon

Translation: "We've still got too much government to grow! If we don't, you'll all be put in chain by corporate overlords!!1"

Typical Obaloney.

Unfortunately for the GOP these are all things that most Americans want. Which is why your guys are lying about what they really want to do. Too bad almost every Republican in Congress voted for the loathsome Ryan plan and will no have to defend their indefensible votes.

56 Gus  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:06:32am

bbl

57 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:07:11am

re: #52 abolitionist

That is also true with a lot of city jobs. Hire new people because they are cheaper.

58 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:07:18am

re: #52 abolitionist

I'm getting a sense that GOP strategy is to hire more new teachers (at low pay), to replace many that a several years of experience. Many New York City Teachers Denied Tenure in Policy Shift

And it's not just NYC. It's across the US.

Well Romney I know equated hiring more cops, firefighters, and teachers to being "big government." I think more teachers and thus a lower student:teacher ratio is for the best given that I think students learn best in smaller environments. Obviously, something like 10:1 isn't realistic but 15:1 I think is doable.

59 jaunte  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:07:34am

Obama Compliments Romney:

"He seems to have a great family. And I really think he had a great health care plan when he was in Massachusetts," Obama said. "Seems to be working really well — One of the reasons why we set up the same kind of plan nationally and we're implementing it right now."

60 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:08:38am

re: #51 HappyWarrior

I've always wondered if government run insurance is such a great evil, why more of these guys once they get elected don't just stay on their current plans? Instead we have stories about incoming Tea Party congresspeople asking for the health care benefits of being a member of Congress before they're even sworn in. I think it's shit like that really makes me thing alot of this anti health care is based not in principle but more of a "Fuck you, I got mine" mentality.

The only reason the US didn't create a universal health care system after WWII is because universal would mean all Americans and many Americans don't consider other Americans real Americans. They never have and still don't.

61 b_snark  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:09:11am

re: #37 blueraven

Fits in well with their tin cup economic philosophy

What's that - the right gets all the money, the rest of us get table scraps and if we don't like it we get thrown in the work/poor houses or debtors prison?

62 allegro  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:09:23am

re: #59 jaunte

Obama Compliments Romney:

That's just part of his viciousness that the Repubs are whining so loudly and incessantly about. It is rather delightfully effective.

63 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:09:48am

re: #59 jaunte

Obama Compliments Romney:

To which Mitt Romney said "Stop attacking me and my record."

64 jaunte  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:10:45am

re: #63 HappyWarrior

Programs, getcher Programs... can't follow the game without a Program....

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

65 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:10:52am

re: #60 moderatelyradicalliberal

The only reason the US didn't create a universal health care system after WWII is because universal would mean all Americans and many Americans don't consider other Americans real Americans. They never have and still don't.

Yeah, that is a problem that goes back a long way and we still see it to this day when we hear from certain candidates about "real America." Last I saw this is all real America from the most liberal part to the most conservative part, and all in between.

66 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:10:55am

re: #59 jaunte

Obama Compliments Romney:

Killing him softly with damning praise.

67 b_snark  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:12:03am

re: #46 Daniel Ballard

There is no competition of ideas where only one side makes it's ideas clear. I don't recall that being a problem with the previous conservative candidates for President such as Dole, either Bush, or Reagan. Those men made their intentions & proposals clear.

From CNN
Romney has for months touted an ambitious plan that promises massive tax cuts. He has also steadfastly refused to say how he would pay for them.

Romney has proposed a 20% across-the-board cut to income tax rates. He also wants to scrap the Alternative Minimum Tax, eliminate the estate tax and chop the tax rate paid by corporations from 35% to 25%.

All those cuts mean the government would collect far less revenue. Romney claims his plan will make up the difference in-part by limiting deductions, exemptions and credits currently available to top-level income earners.

But he hasn't lifted the curtain on which deductions he is planning to curtai

Death by a Thousand Tax Cuts.

68 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:13:48am

re: #52 abolitionist

I'm getting a sense that GOP strategy is to hire more new teachers (at low pay), to replace many that have several years of experience. Many New York City Teachers Denied Tenure in Policy Shift

And it's not just NYC. It's across the US.

Michael Bloomberg is no longer a Republican, and this isn't just a GOP thing. School districts want more power to fire teachers they feel are not performing and the current system of teacher tenure prevents districts from being able to do that.

69 Charleston Chew  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:15:33am

re: #48 moderatelyradicalliberal

I guess so. For people who don't come from money or good connections part of becoming successful is developing people skills. You have to get people to like and trust you in order for them to give you a shot. And the birther nonsense aside, Barack Obama does have an unusual background with wildly diverse experiences (Hawaii, Indonesia, Harvard, Chicago's South Side, Wash, D.C.), so he was either going to be an outsider all of his life or adapt socially and culturally to his environment. He did the latter and it has served him very well.

The President has the great advantage of being a minority of one. That's the reason he became the first black President. Because if he had a stronger connection to the traditional African American community, by being a descendant of slaves or growing up in an all-black community, he would have been tempted by the siren's song of serving a single demographic. He would have been a comfortably successful Senator or Mayor or something with a majority black constituency. And that would be his life.

By not totally fitting in anywhere, he could learn to fit in everywhere.

70 Lidane  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:16:41am

TELEPROMPTERS! EMPTY SUIT! BLACK JIMMY CARTER! ELEVENTY!

*ahem*

That's a damn good speech. I hope he keeps giving them.

71 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:17:07am

re: #69 Charleston Chew

The President has the great advantage of being a minority of one. That's the reason he became the first black President. Because if he had a stronger connection to the traditional African American community, by being a descendant of slaves or growing up in an all-black community, he would have been tempted by the siren's song of serving a single demographic. He would have been a comfortably successful Senator or Mayor or something with a majority black constituency. And that would be his life.

By not totally fitting in anywhere, he could learn to fit in everywhere.

He was raised, basically, as an only child. This also gives one a different set of skills.

72 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:18:55am

He's got an unique background but yet it's also one that is very much American too.

73 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:19:27am

re: #68 Dark_Falcon

Michael Bloomberg is no longer a Republican, and this isn't just a GOP thing. School districts want more power to fire teachers they feel are not performing and the current system of teacher tenure prevents districts from being able to do that.

Has more to do with the fact that people who are in fear for their jobs don't usually make waves. Keep'm scared a poor. Make sure the kids see their teachers that way so they won't expect anything better as they grow up "knowing their places" in the Corporate States of America.

I wonder when the states will start selling naming rights? Koch already owns Wisconsin, why not rename it for them? Same for the Waltons in Arkansas...

74 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:20:37am

re: #73 William Barnett-Lewis

Has more to do with the fact that people who are in fear for their jobs don't usually make waves. Keep'm scared a poor. Make sure the kids see their teachers that way so they won't expect anything better as they grow up "knowing their places" in the Corporate States of America.

I wonder when the states will start selling naming rights? Koch already owns Wisconsin, why not rename it for them? Same for the Waltons in Arkansas...

It's all seeming more and more like a Heinlein Novel isn't it?

Maybe more Walter Mosely.

75 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:21:22am

Yes it is "powerful."

But I don't like powerful + politics. It scares me. As does any politician saying the word "believe" in any context.

I just don't like any of this, no sir, not at all.

76 Charleston Chew  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:21:32am

re: #65 HappyWarrior

Yeah, that is a problem that goes back a long way and we still see it to this day when we hear from certain candidates about "real America." Last I saw this is all real America from the most liberal part to the most conservative part, and all in between.

When conservatives talk about places that aren't "real" America, it's always the most densely populated parts of the country, where most of the voters live. Helluva way to run a campaign.

77 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:21:51am

re: #71 ggt

He was raised, basically, as an only child. This also gives one a different set of skills.

As an only child, I can attest to this.

78 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:23:28am

re: #69 Charleston Chew

The President has the great advantage of being a minority of one. That's the reason he became the first black President. Because if he had a stronger connection to the traditional African American community, by being a descendant of slaves or growing up in an all-black community, he would have been tempted by the siren's song of serving a single demographic. He would have been a comfortably successful Senator or Mayor or something with a majority black constituency. And that would be his life.

By not totally fitting in anywhere, he could learn to fit in everywhere.

I think this is another part of his success. The South Side was his political bass, but he was always seeking wider support. Also David Axelrod kind of specialized in mainstreaming black politicians, to get them ready to run for wider offices.

79 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:24:24am

re: #76 Charleston Chew

When conservatives talk about places that aren't "real" America, it's always the most densely populated parts of the country, where most of the voters live. Helluva way to run a campaign.

That's pretty much what the idiots did in my state when McCain ran here. Meanwhile you had Obama going to the parts of the state hadn't gone Democratic in presidential elections since LBJ. In contrast, you had an idiot McCain surrogate say "Well he(McCain) is winning the real Virginia" referring to the parts of the state that are more old South in culture and read more white and Christian. This is the big difference to me how Republicans and Democrats are these days. Republicans seem eager to deride people who disagree with them as somehow being less American than they are while you see Democrats trying to be more inclusive.

80 palomino  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:24:28am

re: #41 Dark_Falcon

Translation: "We've still got too much government to grow! If we don't, you'll all be put in chain by corporate overlords!!1"

Typical Obaloney.

Bullshit, we're the richest country in the world, yet the only developed nation without universal health care, from Canada to Japan to western Europe to Israel to Australia to S. Korea. Is it baloney that ALL those countries have LONGER life expectancies than we do.

Your moral priorities are upside down when you're more concerned about small percent tax increases than the health of millions of poor, working class and middle class people who are one illness away from bankruptcy.

81 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:24:52am

re: #76 Charleston Chew

When conservatives talk about places that aren't "real" America, it's always the most densely populated parts of the country, where most of the voters live. Helluva way to run a campaign.

NYC wasn't real America until 9/11. Funny people outside of America think of big cities, when they think of America. The urban vs.rural divide is an old one.

82 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:25:08am

re: #73 William Barnett-Lewis

Has more to do with the fact that people who are in fear for their jobs don't usually make waves. Keep'm scared a poor. Make sure the kids see their teachers that way so they won't expect anything better as they grow up "knowing their places" in the Corporate States of America.

I wonder when the states will start selling naming rights? Koch already owns Wisconsin, why not rename it for them? Same for the Waltons in Arkansas...

I don't agree with your overall point, but I do believe that the reduction in teacher job security is part of the goal, and honestly it should be. Tenure as currently constructed makes it almost impossible to dismiss a tenured teacher who is not doing his or her job to spec. When people can be fired for failing, they are more likely to put in the effort needed to succeed.

83 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:25:09am

Not entirely OT:

Youtube Video
84 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:25:34am

re: #80 palomino

Bullshit, we're the richest country in the world, yet the only developed nation without universal health care, from Canada to Japan to western Europe to Israel to Australia to S. Korea. Is it baloney that ALL those countries have LONGER life expectancies than we do.

Your moral priorities are upside down when you're more concerned about small percent tax increases than the health of millions of poor, working class and middle class people who are one illness away from bankruptcy.

Ding, ding.

85 palomino  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:26:40am

re: #75 Ojoe

Yes it is "powerful."

But I don't like powerful + politics. It scares me. As does any politician saying the word "believe" in any context.

I just don't like any of this, no sir, not at all.

Can you be more specific? What do you not believe? Here's a fact that requires no "belief". We spend far more than any country on health care, yet we have more uninsured and we live shorter lives. Does that sound like an effective system? When something is really expensive and not very effective, we usually call that a failure on planet Earth.

86 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:27:05am

re: #75 Ojoe

Yes it is "powerful."

But I don't like powerful + politics. It scares me. As does any politician saying the word "believe" in any context.

I just don't like any of this, no sir, not at all.

So the power of Romney's riches and his slogan 'Believe in America" bother you just as much as Obama's speaking ability?

87 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:27:25am

re: #77 moderatelyradicalliberal

As an only child, I can attest to this.

Yeah, me too! WE have a whole different perspective on the world and don't care so much about fitting into any group.

88 Lidane  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:27:30am

re: #71 ggt

He was raised, basically, as an only child. This also gives one a different set of skills.

Yes it does. It gives a skill set that anyone with siblings couldn't understand.

89 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:28:15am

re: #88 Lidane

Yes it does. It gives a skill set that anyone with siblings couldn't understand.

My husband is from large family and totally doesn't get how I don't care about what other's think or if they approve . . .

90 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:29:39am

re: #88 Lidane

Yes it does. It gives a skill set that anyone with siblings couldn't understand.

True, but having a family network has its own benefits which tend to outweigh an only child's skill set. And those with siblings gain their own social skills as well.

91 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:31:04am

re: #90 Dark_Falcon

True, but having a family network has its own benefits which tend to outweigh an only child's skill set. And those with siblings gain their own social skills as well.

I think the family network is more of hindrance than a benefit.

different perspectives . . .

92 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:31:53am

re: #91 ggt

I think the family network is more of hindrance than a benefit.

different perspectives . . .

They both have their own advantages and disadvantages if you ask me.

93 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:32:12am

re: #74 ggt

It's all seeming more and more like a Heinlein Novel isn't it?

Maybe more Walter Mosely.

More like Gibson than Heinlein, alas. Heinlein, at least, always held out the fantasy of revolution saving us eventually. Gibson understands that once the corporations get control it'll be like Singapore - Disneyland With The Death Penalty.

94 austin_blue  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:32:23am

Your attention, please.

Water is falling from the sky in Austin, TX. Hard.

That is all.

95 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:32:32am

re: #90 Dark_Falcon

True, but having a family network has its own benefits which tend to outweigh an only child's skill set. And those with siblings gain their own social skills as well.

I have three brothers and three sisters, and lately I've been thinking more along the lines of what ggt is saying. Sibling dynamics can give one some twisted ideas about what's important.

96 palomino  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:32:36am

re: #71 ggt

He was raised, basically, as an only child. This also gives one a different set of skills.

As was Clinton, IIRC. His half-bro Roger is much younger. Clinton had his problems, but I don't think a lack of siblings impaired him much.

97 b_snark  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:33:05am

re: #82 Dark_Falcon

I don't agree with your overall point, but I do believe that the reduction in teacher job security is part of the goal, and honestly it should be. Tenure as currently constructed makes it almost impossible to dismiss a tenured teacher who is not doing his or her job to spec. When people can be fired for failing, they are more likely to put in the effort needed to succeed.

You do know there are ways other than fear to motivate people.

98 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:33:14am

Obama has two half siblings I believe that he's particularly close to.

99 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:33:23am

re: #85 palomino

Well:

1) it is disease care, not health care. Part of the problem is that people let themselves go, and do not take responsible care of their own health; then politicians, chronic over-promisers that they are, pander that they will take care of one's health; this tempts the lazy to ensconce themselves further into their laziness and you have a downward spiral of less health and more costs.

2) we cannot have a sensible debate on this issue without defining the terms of the debate; and the first term is ill-defined.

3) There is such a thing as the "President's council on Physical Fitness," started by Ike, by the way, and recently re-named to include the words "and nutrition." Michelle O has promoted this; and there lies the solution to this whole problem.

100 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:33:43am

re: #91 ggt

I think the family network is more of hindrance than a benefit.

different perspectives . . .

I don't agree but my background is different.

BBIAB

101 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:33:46am

re: #86 wrenchwench

So the power of Romney's riches and his slogan 'Believe in America" bother you just as much as Obama's speaking ability?

Yes. Slogan, yes definitely; riches less so.

102 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:34:34am

re: #82 Dark_Falcon

I don't agree with your overall point, but I do believe that the reduction in teacher job security is part of the goal, and honestly it should be. Tenure as currently constructed makes it almost impossible to dismiss a tenured teacher who is not doing his or her job to spec. When people can be fired for failing, they are more likely to put in the effort needed to succeed.

And what happens when people realize that it isn't the teachers, but the parents? My value and respect for education came from my parents, not my teachers. I didn't fear my teachers, I feared letting down my parents. My love of reading came from my parents. Teachers aren't failing the schools, parents and communities are. That's the real truth that nobody wants to talk about. When I was a kid, the kids who did well in school weren't any smarter then kids who didn't, they just had better home lives and more involved parents. Schools are where kids go to tell the truth about what's happening at home. Now maybe there are a lot of teachers who can't handle or override those kinds of problems or don't have the proper training to do it, but those problems are not their fault and not of their making. If your child is struggling in school check yourself before you go curse out their teachers. They fact that you haven't brought them a book to read since they were toddlers may have something to do with it.

103 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:34:40am

re: #101 Ojoe

Yes.

How's that Nuevo Whig Party doing? Have they taken a stand in favor of gay rights yet?

104 b_snark  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:35:05am

re: #87 ggt

Yeah, me too! WE have a whole different perspective on the world and don't care so much about fitting into any group.

Yah, me too.

Oh wait, I have 5 siblings, I just wanted to be an only child.

105 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:35:12am

re: #82 Dark_Falcon

And also can be easily fired for not toeing the Creationist line. Or Corporate line. Or anything else deemed "wrong" for no reason other than those in power don't like.

Read about academic freedom sometime - especially the battles about it here at the University in Wisconsin back around the turn of the previous century. Tenure is a cure for a disease and it's the disease that opposes it.

106 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:35:41am

re: #103 wrenchwench

I'd have to go look at their current web site; will do.

107 b_snark  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:35:59am

re: #94 austin_blue

Your attention, please.

Water is falling from the sky in Austin, TX. Hard.

That is all.

Hey, shit happens.

108 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:36:23am

re: #95 wrenchwench

I have three brothers and three sisters, and lately I've been thinking more along the lines of what ggt is saying. Sibling dynamics can give one some twisted ideas about what's important.

inherited family dysfunction get's translated into public policy this way - - - -

109 palomino  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:36:34am

re: #90 Dark_Falcon

True, but having a family network has its own benefits which tend to outweigh an only child's skill set. And those with siblings gain their own social skills as well.

Once again, you're stuck in the thinking of a previous generation. Birthrates are way down, and one-child families are becoming the norm. Pseudo-sociological arguments about the Father Knows Best family of yesteryear do no good in the 21st century. You might as well bemoan the "loss" of B&W television and records on vinyl.

110 b_snark  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:36:55am

re: #95 wrenchwench

I have three brothers and three sisters, and lately I've been thinking more along the lines of what ggt is saying. Sibling dynamics can give one some twisted ideas about what's important.

I take it none of them followed the wrench as they should have. They probably followed the shoe or the gourd, right?

111 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:37:15am

re: #104 b_sharp

Yah, me too.

Oh wait, I have 5 siblings, I just wanted to be an only child.

I always feel bad for that one child in a large family. I've learned to pick them out pretty quick. They are the ones that like me and want to move into my house. LOL

112 Kragar  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:37:47am

re: #94 austin_blue

Your attention, please.

Water is falling from the sky in Austin, TX. Hard.

That is all.

So the prayer rally took a fucking year to work?

113 abolitionist  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:38:06am

re: #85 palomino

Can you be more specific? What do you not believe? Here's a fact that requires no "belief". We spend far more than any country on health care, yet we have more uninsured and we live shorter lives. Does that sound like an effective system. When something is really expensive and not very effective, we usually call that a failure on planet Earth.

I think Ojoe is saying he's fearful of demagogery --politicians' rhetoric increasingly similar to proponents of religion, especially those who want to "tear town that wall" of separation.

114 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:38:23am

The question I have is how do you objectively determine teacher failure? I don't think it can be simply defined as kids doing poorly in class and MRL is right to say that failure should not just be placed on teachers but also community and parents. I think we need to encourage better study habits at an early age. To me, the smarter students are the ones who can adapt to classes that they usually struggle with or ones that can apply what they're learning to another situation. I'll give an example of the latter but when we read Richard II in my Shakespeare class in college. I was able to apply that to what had happened with Queen Elizabeth I and her cousin Mary Queen of Scots which had some timeline symmetry with the play.

115 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:39:36am

re: #108 ggt

inherited family dysfunction get's translated into public policy this way - - - -

Family dysfunction, or what I see as family dysfunction, is required among some fundamentalist sects. Dictatorship of the father, enforcement by siblings... But even in a secular setting, the kind of social control some families exercise over each other is decidedly unfree and undemocratic.

116 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:39:46am

Mary Queen of Scots, what were her last words?

Knock it off boys.

117 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:40:14am

re: #41 Dark_Falcon

Did you really just type Obaloney?
Really?
I'm sure we can agree that it's wrong-headed to expect that we'll solve all of the country's ills if only we could throw more money at it, but isn't it equally ill advised to gut labor and privatize everything?
Spending money on infrastructure, which in my mind begins in the classroom, is an investment that everyone will benefit from. Not the 99% or the 1%, but everyone.
If that is now considered socialism, well then let me go grab my socialist...shirt, or whatever the hell it is that socialists wear.
Now, I will grant you that that's probably as clever a thing that you're gonna get from Mitt, so the question is, does that help you tune out all of Mitt's lies, or does it make you forget that he has no viable policy?
What do you call those racist welfare adds that Romney approves of? Moderacy?
Oh, did I mention he's a big fat liar?
Dude, I'm not being pissy, but I honestly cannot fathom what there is to like about Mitt Romney.

118 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:40:32am

re: #109 palomino

You might as well bemoan the "loss" of B&W television and records on vinyl.

I hear that one a heck of a lot.

When I was in Germany in 1984 I went to a record store and saw one of the first generation Phillips CD players. I popped in "The Pretenders" and pulled on the headphones and cranked it up. After that I was never happy with vinyl again and was thrilled when I could finally afford a cd player.

Progress scares most people; it just that different people are scared by different kinds of progress. Me? I dislike the progress in polymer firearms... ;)

119 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:40:47am

re: #92 HappyWarrior

They both have their own advantages and disadvantages if you ask me.

I heard being an only child is awesome, until your parents die. You don't have anyone to share the grief with in the same way. Other than that, I would trade it for the world. You get spoiled while learning to be independent at the same time. And you rarely get lonely because you learn to enjoy your own company. You also don't care much for what other people think of you because your self image is so well contained and you know you are your own best back-up in any situation.

I did have a very large, very close extended family so I always had cousins to hang out with and play with.......... when I felt like it. ;)

120 Kragar  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:41:22am

re: #116 Ojoe

Mary Queen of Scots, what were her last words?

Knock it off boys.

Youtube Video
121 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:41:54am

re: #110 b_sharp

I take it none of them followed the wrench as they should have. They probably followed the shoe or the gourd, right?

One of them is a quantum mechanic. That's as close to another mechanic as they come.

122 Lidane  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:42:34am

re: #89 ggt

My husband is from large family and totally doesn't get how I don't care about what other's think or if they approve . . .

I was technically the youngest of three, but circumstances made me an only child when I was an infant. I've got a large extended family of cousins that I get along with, but honestly, I grew up very independent and as I've gotten older I give less and less of a damn what anyone thinks about what I believe or what I do.

Family dynamics are important to a degree. I love my mom and my aunts and uncles and cousins dearly, but I'm not going to live my life by their expectations of who or what I should be.

123 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:42:56am

re: #119 moderatelyradicalliberal

I heard being an only child is awesome, until your parents die. You don't have anyone to share the grief with in the same way. Other than that, I would trade it for the world. You get spoiled while learning to be independent at the same time. And you rarely get lonely because you learn to enjoy your own company. You also don't care much for what other people think of you because your self image is so well contained and you know you are your own best back-up in any situation.

I did have a very large, very close extended family so I always had cousins to hang out with and play with.......... when I felt like it. ;)

I never really experienced being an only child outside my first three years. I'm the oldest of three. I have a big extended family too though and I think that made it alot of fun growing up because there were always family parties and social gatherings, and we usually goof on each other. My youngest brother is kind of a defacto only child in a way though since he's 14 and 11 years younger than me and our other brother. And I do think in a way he's more independent than both of us.

124 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:43:28am

re: #119 moderatelyradicalliberal

I heard being an only child is awesome, until your parents die. You don't have anyone to share the grief with in the same way. Other than that, I would trade it for the world. You get spoiled while learning to be independent at the same time. And you rarely get lonely because you learn to enjoy your own company. You also don't care much for what other people think of you because your self image is so well contained and you know you are your own best back-up in any situation.

I did have a very large, very close extended family so I always had cousins to hang out with and play with.......... when I felt like it. ;)

Well, I won't have to go thru the inheritance game with siblings. I've seen that be a real nightmare. My husband loves being with his siblings, but all I see is a rehash of everthing he has gone to therapy for. . . .

125 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:43:57am

re: #113 abolitionist

True ! Too much demagoguery.

126 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:44:51am

Well teh Modern Whigs are still debating the gay issue back and forth per the comment string here.

[Link: www.modernwhig.org...]

127 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:46:26am

re: #120 Kragar

Originally a Monty Python sketch, & still the best.

128 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:46:59am

re: #123 HappyWarrior

I never really experienced being an only child outside my first three years. I'm the oldest of three. I have a big extended family too though and I think that made it alot of fun growing up because there were always family parties and social gatherings, and we usually goof on each other.

Me too. Big family gatherings and constant parties and cook-outs. Can't say I was ever lonely and always had fun. It was like I had a big sister and 5 older brothers who were always there and looking out for me. I was everybody's little sister when I needed it and when I wanted to be alone, I had that too. It was great.

129 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:47:02am

re: #97 b_sharp

You do know there are ways other than fear to motivate people.

Sure, that why you create a merit-pay system at the same time. Those who perform well are paid extra and only those who are getting merit pay are considered for promotions. That makes the rewards of success visible and believable.

130 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:47:07am

Ah, I have to get back to the drafting board. BBL.

131 Stanghazi  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:47:13am

ooh baby closeup

132 palomino  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:48:22am

re: #99 Ojoe

Well:

1) it is disease care, not health care. Part of the problem is that people let themselves go, and do not take responsible care of their own health; then politicians, chronic over-promisers that they are, pander that they will take care of one's health; this tempts the lazy to ensconce themselves further into their laziness and you have a downward spiral of less health and more costs.

2) we cannot have a sensible debate on this issue without defining the terms of the debate; and the first term is ill-defined.

3) There is such a thing as the "President's council on Physical Fitness," started by Ike, by the way, and recently re-named to include the words "and nutrition." Michelle O has promoted this; and there lies the solution to this whole problem.

1) The reason ALL the other countries I mentioned have higher life expectancies and better health--not disease--care is due to universal access to doctors. People there don't wait until they're in dire straits and then go to the emergency room (way more expensive) as a last resort. Unless you believe that Americans are simply less disciplined than people in all other developed countries.

2) Too vague to respond to.

3) Eisenhower has nothing to do with this. Better nutrition and less obesity is only part of the problem. Some of the most health conscious people get cancer, MS, etc. It's a crapshoot based on things like genetics. Eating veggies isn't the entire answer, as helpful as it may be.

133 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:48:40am

re: #126 Ojoe

Well teh Modern Whigs are still debating the gay issue back and forth per the comment string here.

[Link: www.modernwhig.org...]

From there:

Same Sex Relationships

Each state can determine the extended rights of same sex couples based on their own local values.

"Extended rights"? "Local values"? Pardon my Anglo Saxon, but that's fucked up.

134 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:49:23am

re: #131 Stanley Sea

ooh baby closeup

I whaaaaaaaaant one!

135 b_snark  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:49:47am

re: #111 ggt

I always feel bad for that one child in a large family. I've learned to pick them out pretty quick. They are the ones that like me and want to move into my house. LOL

I really had a weird childhood. For my first three years I was an only child. For the next 5 years I had a growing number of siblings, which then stabilized at 4 until I was 11. At that time the number of siblings I lived with dropped to 3 and a year later dropped to 1. A year and a half after that I became an only child which lasted for 2 years until the number of siblings I lived with jumped to 3. Then when I was 17 I was living on my own, no parents and no siblings. I didn't live with any siblings after that, except for about 6 months when I was 18.

Is it any wonder confusion is natural to me?

When I was 19 my total number of siblings went from 4 to 5 although I didn't know about it until I was 50, and then when I was 22 the number of my siblings went to 6. It dropped back to 5 in 2001.

136 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:49:53am

By the way, has anyone had a problem when clicking on a ding button (reloads the front page instead of dinging) in the last 30 minutes or so?

137 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:50:10am

re: #131 Stanley Sea

ooh baby closeup

Can he do kung-fu?

138 b_snark  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:50:23am

re: #112 Kragar

So the prayer rally took a fucking year to work?

God moves in mysterious circles ways.

139 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:51:17am

re: #135 b_sharp

I really had a weird childhood. For my first three years I was an only child. For the next 5 years I had a growing number of siblings, which then stabilized at 4 until I was 11. At that time the number of siblings I lived with dropped to 3 and a year later dropped to 1. A year and a half after that I became an only child which lasted for 2 years until the number of siblings I lived with jumped to 3. Then when I was 17 I was living on my own, no parents and no siblings. I didn't live with any siblings after that, except for about 6 months when I was 18.

Is it any wonder confusion is natural to me?

When I was 19 my total number of siblings went from 4 to 5 although I didn't know about it until I was 50, and then when I was 22 the number of my siblings went to 6. It dropped back to 5 in 2001.

Way too much change and movement for me.

140 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:51:31am

re: #137 HappyWarrior

Can he do kung-fu?

Who cares --he is soooooo cute!

141 Lidane  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:52:02am

re: #124 ggt

Well, I won't have to go thru the inheritance game with siblings. I've seen that be a real nightmare. My husband loves being with his siblings, but all I see is a rehash of everthing he has gone to therapy for. . . .

My 96 year old grandmother is bound and determined that her five children will each receive the same exact amount of money from her when she's gone so that no one will feel slighted. Once any additional property she has is sold that money will get divided equally as well.

Keep in mind-- her "kids" are all in their 60's and early 70's. But this is a priority for my grandmother to make sure that everyone gets the same thing. She does it at Christmas too -- her kids all get the same gifts, my cousins and I all get the same gifts by gender (all the girls get one thing, the boys another) and the great-grandkids (i.e., my cousins' kids) all get their own gifts.

Thanks but no. I know I won't have any siblings to share my grief with when my mom dies, but I also don't have to fight with anyone about inheritances or the will or whatever.

142 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:52:23am

re: #128 moderatelyradicalliberal

Me too. Big family gatherings and constant parties and cook-outs. Can't say I was ever lonely and always had fun. It was like I had a big sister and 5 older brothers who were always there and looking out for me. I was everybody's little sister when I needed it and when I wanted to be alone, I had that too. It was great.

Seems like the best of both worlds heh. I don't mind being an older brother but I've always wondered what it would be like to be the youngest or only. I come from a long line of youngest or younger children. Both parents and two grandparents who were the youngest and that doesn't include one grandparent who was the product of a second marriage and third to youngest overall. I always do like joking around with my uncles who are older than my Dad about how he must have been a pain as a kid.

143 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:52:38am

re: #140 ggt

Who cares --he is soooooo cute!

He just yawned!!!!

144 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:52:42am

re: #140 ggt

Who cares --he is soooooo cute!

Kung-Fu Panda reference. That's my favorite children's movie.

145 Stanghazi  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:52:50am

re: #136 Charles Johnson

By the way, has anyone had a problem when clicking on a ding button (reloads the front page instead of dinging) in the last 30 minutes or so?

No. But that is something that happens on the iphone almost every time. Not sure if related to the issue today...but fyi

146 b_snark  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:52:50am

re: #121 wrenchwench

One of them is a quantum mechanic. That's as close to another mechanic as they come.

Tiny, tiny wrenches.

147 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:54:21am

re: #141 Lidane

My 96 year old grandmother is bound and determined that her five children will each receive the same exact amount of money from her when she's gone so that no one will feel slighted. Once any additional property she has is sold that money will get divided equally as well.

Keep in mind-- her "kids" are all in their 60's and early 70's. But this is a priority for my grandmother to make sure that everyone gets the same thing. She does it at Christmas too -- her kids all get the same gifts, my cousins and I all get the same gifts by gender (all the girls get one thing, the boys another) and the great-grandkids (i.e., my cousins' kids) all get their own gifts.

Thanks but no. I know I won't have any siblings to share my grief with when my mom dies, but I also don't have to fight with anyone about inheritances or the will or whatever.

I don't understanding the shared grief thing. No one can really understand how you feel, what you, personally have lost. But that is just me.

I told my Mom, I was going to make it easy on her. "I want it ALL!'

Actually, I hope she spends every cent. She earned it, it's hers.

148 Kragar  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:54:35am

re: #136 Charles Johnson

By the way, has anyone had a problem when clicking on a ding button (reloads the front page instead of dinging) in the last 30 minutes or so?

Not today, but yesterday, if I had edited a post, then checked the ding count, it would bump me back.

149 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:54:56am

re: #109 palomino

Once again, you're stuck in the thinking of a previous generation. Birthrates are way down, and one-child families are becoming the norm. Pseudo-sociological arguments about the Father Knows Best family of yesteryear do no good in the 21st century. You might as well bemoan the "loss" of B&W television and records on vinyl.

I am what I am, an older brother of a sister whom I love and spent a good deal of my younger days protecting. I am also one of my father's parents 18 grandchildren and many of my generation have children of their own, several of them having 3 or more. I also know that one-child families being the norm is the track that leads to demographic doomsday.

So if I am old-fashioned it is because both my upbringing and convictions have lead me to be so. And I make apology for neither of those things.

150 b_snark  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:54:59am

re: #129 Dark_Falcon

Sure, that why you create a merit-pay system at the same time. Those who perform well are paid extra and only those who are getting merit pay are considered for promotions. That makes the rewards of success visible and believable.

Let's try again.
You do know that fear and monetary rewards are not the only way to motivate.

151 Jadewater  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:55:07am

I'm the oldest of 3 and have quite a big extended family. I get along with my siblings just fine and consider my youngest sister one of my best friends. That friendship developed when we were in our twenties. I wouldn't want to be an only child though mostly because I love my sisters. I do see some of the differences in upbringing though as my nephew is a will be an only child. He's a great kid.

Someone mentioned inheritence issues with siblings. That's all taken care of. My Mom is practical as was her mother and has made sure that everything is set up so it's fair and we all know what will happen before it happens. My Grandmother got her kids to go around before she died and pick out things that they would like. If two or more would like one thing they worked it out with Grandmas input before she died. She made a list with names and stuck names on masking tape on the backs or bottoms of big pieces.

At the time, I was a teen I found that whole process really creepy and couldn't understand how my Mom could not be upset picking out things she would get when her mother WAS DEAD. She said this is what has always been done in her family because it saves a lot of grief and arguing. My Grandma considered it an act of love because the last thing she wanted was her kids to fight over things. I get it now and although I'm not really looking forward to the day when my Mom decides it's time to start working on her lists I can appreciate the result. When she dies we can just grieve and remember and not argue over 'things'.

152 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:55:30am

re: #136 Charles Johnson

By the way, has anyone had a problem when clicking on a ding button (reloads the front page instead of dinging) in the last 30 minutes or so?

Never had the problem in Chromium.

153 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:55:47am

re: #148 Kragar

Not today, but yesterday, if I had edited a post, then checked the ding count, it would bump me back.

Ditto.

154 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:55:56am

I will say that I know a lot of families with two kids, and (except when it's twins) the second kid always seems much more relaxed and is ahead of the first one, developmentally, at each age. I think this reflects parents who are more relaxed about everything the second time around.

155 b_snark  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:55:57am

re: #134 ggt

I whaaaaaaaaant one!

You need a new fur coat?

156 palomino  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:56:09am

re: #113 abolitionist

I think Ojoe is saying he's fearful of demagogery --politicians' rhetoric increasingly similar to proponents of religion, especially those who want to "tear town that wall" of separation.

It's not demagoguery to point out that poor, working and mid class people are in constant fear of bankruptcy due to a major illness. Or that an insurance system that denies coverage for pre-existing conditions and puts lifetime caps on coverage is devastating to millions.

157 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:56:38am

re: #156 palomino

It's not demagoguery to point out that poor, working and mid class people are in constant fear of bankruptcy due to a major illness. Or that an insurance system that denies coverage for pre-existing conditions and puts lifetime caps on coverage is devastating to millions.

Yes, the last thing this speech is demagoguery.

158 b_snark  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:57:03am

re: #139 ggt

Way too much change and movement for me.

Same here.

I blame my parents.

159 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:57:14am

re: #155 b_sharp

You need a new fur coat?

you so bad!

160 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:58:35am

Not having insurance is only half of the problem.
What do you do when you have insurance, but you have to deal with outrageous deductibles that a purely based on the whims of some schmuck?
Answer:
The same thing you do if you don't have insurance at all. The caveat being that you're sick and pissed off.

161 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:58:39am

re: #154 wrenchwench

I will say that I know a lot of families with two kids, and (except when it's twins) the second kid always seems much more relaxed and is ahead of the first one, developmentally, at each age. I think this reflects parents who are more relaxed about everything the second time around.

the oldest is always the most disciplined and seems the most repressed. I feel sorry for them.

I was both the oldest and youngest, but my parents were older and had watched their friends make a lot of mistakes. They were more relaxed.

162 abolitionist  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 11:59:42am

re: #136 Charles Johnson

Merely hesitated once, but worked.

163 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:00:01pm

re: #148 Kragar

Not today, but yesterday, if I had edited a post, then checked the ding count, it would bump me back.

Yeah - I reverted back to the previous version of jQuery. I think the new 1.8.0 release may have been the cause of those problems. I haven't been able to make it happen since reverting.

164 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:00:12pm

I think with being the oldest, there's some pressure to learn things and then pass them down to the younger siblings. I mean it's not unbearable pressure to the point of anxiety and stress but it's there.

165 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:01:41pm

re: #164 HappyWarrior

I think with being the oldest, there's some pressure to learn things and then pass them down to the younger siblings. I mean it's not unbearable pressure to the point of anxiety and stress but it's there.

Depends on the family and the parents. My one cousin had had to deal with a lot in therapy because of it.

166 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:02:34pm

re: #150 b_sharp

Let's try again.
You do know that fear and monetary rewards are not the only way to motivate.

True, but they are the best ways for an organization to motivate. Inspiration is often the best way to motivate but the number of people with the innate skills to teach and the ability to become an inspiring leader in fairly limited and no large school district is likely to have enough of them.

Lastly, and then I have to go to a late lunch, is the fact that not all such potential leaders ultimately get to lead. Some have run-ins with Mr. Murphy that remove then from leadership contention. Others fall victim to organizational politics and are sandbagged by those who fear their competition.

More later.

167 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:03:27pm

re: #165 ggt

Depends on the family and the parents. My one cousin had had to deal with a lot in therapy because of it.

Yeah true. I mean I am talking about small things like learning the swears and stuff. I just remember having a different kind of reaction than my brothers must have when I first heard the word "motherfucker."

168 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:04:37pm

re: #164 HappyWarrior

I think with being the oldest, there's some pressure to learn things and then pass them down to the younger siblings. I mean it's not unbearable pressure to the point of anxiety and stress but it's there.

I know another family in which there is a gap of 5 years between the oldest and the next child. It seems better for the older child in this situation. She takes responsibility because she is old enough to see it is necessary, but her parents realize she will be in high school and out of the house while the younger ones are still there.

169 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:06:35pm

I'm the oldest of three, and possibly mildly crazy, because my parents didn't figure out their parenting style until the twins came four years later. I am the product of experimentation.
Repressed? Yes, and I'm a brooder.
I'm adaptable though, and a lot of fun at parties !

170 bratwurst  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:11:45pm

For a party that is anti-gay...

[Link: d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net...]

171 Kragar  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:12:21pm

re: #170 bratwurst

For a party that is anti-gay...

[Link: d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net...]

And that symbol is "STOP!"

172 garrick  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:16:08pm

I can't figure out if I'm being a misogynist. TBS plans to have a woman in the broadcast booth on Sunday for their weekly baseball game. Michele Smith,who was apparently an olympic gold medalist in softball. I like my color commentators to explain what it's like in the clubhouse after a heartbreaking loss,why it's so damn hard to hit a knuckleball,what it's like to face a guy throwing a 98 mph fastball,etc.

Obviously she is disqualified to do this. But otoh, the odds of a woman achieving success at any level of baseball is practically nil.so by my standard there will never be a woman qualified to be a color commentator. Hence my dilemma.

173 b_snark  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:17:04pm

re: #164 HappyWarrior

I think with being the oldest, there's some pressure to learn things and then pass them down to the younger siblings. I mean it's not unbearable pressure to the point of anxiety and stress but it's there.

The biggest stress of being the oldest is having younger siblings, although pounding on their heads helps a fair amount.

174 abolitionist  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:18:40pm

re: #172 garrick

Never? Did you miss A League of Their Own?

175 b_snark  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:20:21pm

re: #169 OhNoZombies!

I'm the oldest of three, and possibly mildly crazy, because my parents didn't figure out their parenting style until the twins came four years later. I am the product of experimentation.
Repressed? Yes, and I'm a brooder.
I'm adaptable though, and a lot of fun at parties !

Keep your clothes on, you don't want to scare the old folks.

176 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:20:31pm

re: #174 abolitionist

Never? Did you miss A League of Their Own?

There's no crying in baseball!

177 abolitionist  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:21:21pm

re: #176 Varek Raith

That's good advice.

178 b_snark  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:22:22pm

BBL, or BBIAW

179 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:26:34pm

Anyone seen SB lately?

180 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:27:32pm

re: #175 b_sharp

Keep your clothes on, you don't want to scare the old folks.

Why so serious? Where would the fun be in that?
:D

181 allegro  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:27:43pm

I had one sibling, a brother about 3 years older. It was great. My parents could afford both of us, in terms of both time and money, and they were dedicated parents devoted to education and excellence within our respective abilities. When they died, nine months apart, the inheritance argument went something like this: "You can have the house, I'm taking Dad's poker chips!"

I always felt kinda sorry for my friends who were only-children. They were the ones who seemed more smothered by parental attention, i.e. helicopter parents. They didn't have that confidante who understood the family issues that a sibling shared. As a teen girl and young woman, my brother was a fantastic sounding board who I could trust completely. As a now older adult, he's the only family I have left, the only other person with my shared history, and I cherish him.

182 Big Joe Ghazi  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:28:16pm

re: #179 Varek Raith

Anyone seen SB lately?

Not since April. I've been wondering where he's been too.

183 gwangung  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:32:34pm

re: #68 Dark_Falcon

Michael Bloomberg is no longer a Republican, and this isn't just a GOP thing. School districts want more power to fire teachers they feel are not performing and the current system of teacher tenure prevents districts from being able to do that.

This is just bull shit.

You have to document and make clear where a teacher is failing and if they have that under their control. That has happened in every district I know about it.

The real problems are that a) there is a VERY fuzzy idea on what makes a good teacher, and b) a lot of what makes teachers bad is not under their control.

184 efuseakay  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:33:22pm

Like I said earlier this month... Obama hasn't even begun to campaign. Looks like he's started today. Romney's VP pick was meaningless. Regardless of who he picked.

185 garrick  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:35:20pm

re: #174 abolitionist

As far as I know, there are currently no womens' baseball leagues so your question is irrelevant. And even if such a league existed,most of its teams would lose to an average high school team. But again,my point was that you can't be an effective color commentator if you have never played the game.

186 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:38:44pm

re: #185 garrick

As far as I know, there are currently no womens' baseball leagues so your question is irrelevant. And even if such a league existed,most of its teams would lose to an average high school team. But again,my point was that you can't be an effective color commentator if you have never played the game.

I think that's kind of narrow-minded. Do you feel the same way about men who haven't played the game? Do they have to have played at a certain level, ie. high school isn't good enough?

187 allegro  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:44:11pm

re: #185 garrick

As far as I know, there are currently no womens' baseball leagues so your question is irrelevant. And even if such a league existed,most of its teams would lose to an average high school team. But again,my point was that you can't be an effective color commentator if you have never played the game.

I don't know a lot about baseball since I find it mind-numbingly boring. However, using basketball as an example, both the men's and women's leagues are terrific. I actually enjoy watching the women more because they play with greater finesse. It is a different experience. It doesn't matter which gender can beat the other - the skill is in playing the games they play. To discount a champion woman softball player as a commentator on men's league baseball is sexist. Enjoy the perspective she offers... or not.

188 abolitionist  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:44:32pm

re: #185 garrick

Howard Cosell: I Never Played the Game and reaction

Ok, maybe he was ineffective.

189 palomino  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:47:29pm

re: #126 Ojoe

Well teh Modern Whigs are still debating the gay issue back and forth per the comment string here.

[Link: www.modernwhig.org...]

If you're still debating the "gay issue", you're party isn't as Modern as its name would imply.

190 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:48:37pm

re: #184 efuseakay

Like I said earlier this month... Obama hasn't even begun to campaign. Looks like he's started today. Romney's VP pick was meaningless. Regardless of who he picked.

I got an email just now from Obama's campaign manager:

Friday morning, I sent a letter to Mitt Romney's campaign manager, asking that Romney release just five years of tax returns. And I made a commitment that, if he does, this campaign would not demand more.

You should add your name. Here's why:

Right now, our opponent is proposing a $2,000 tax increase on middle-class families with kids in order to pay for tax breaks for millionaires like him.

He's asking Americans to put him in charge of their taxes, while refusing to come clean about his own.

This isn't going away because voters deserve better, and everyone but the Romney campaign seems to recognize that.

Call for Mitt Romney to join President Obama in this basic and traditional act of transparency: Add your name.

Romney's refusal to release his returns is raising more questions than he's been willing to answer.

According to the one full year of returns he has released, Romney paid 13.9% in taxes on his income. Thursday, he said he went back and looked, and has never paid less than 13% over the last ten years.

Now we're asking him to put his money where his mouth is.

It is absolutely relevant for us to ask how much a presidential candidate paid in taxes, if he sheltered his money or tried to get out of paying taxes at all, why he started -- and continues to own -- a corporation offshore in Bermuda, why he keeps his finances offshore in the Cayman Islands, and why he opened a Swiss bank account.

In refusing to be transparent about it, he's not only breaking the trust he's asking voters to place in him, but also three decades of precedent that began with his own father's presidential campaign in 1968.

This issue isn't going away, and for good reason. Tell Romney to follow 30 years of precedent and release his tax returns:

[Link: my.barackobama.com...]

Thanks,

Messina

Jim Messina
Campaign Manager
Obama for America

191 garrick  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:50:44pm

re: #186 wrenchwench

Well I guess I am a misogynist(shrugs his shoulders),so be it: Put it this way:would you really want someone who did gymnastics for a few years as a child doing commentary for an olympics broadcast? How about a casual pond hockey player calling nhl games? Cause if you're cool with this kind of stuff,then your standards are even lower than mine.

192 SpikeDad  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:52:28pm

Fuck. I'm usually with Obama but why must he pander to the idocracy of America by ending his speech with such nonsense as God Bless American and American is the best nation in the world. If if there were a god - THERE ISN'T - what ego-maniacal reason would there be to think American was the only country deserving of some blessing. And we're not the best nation in the world in many instances and if we're so self-important that's proof we're not the greatest. Isn't enough for us to be a Great Nation and a friend and support to our own people and the world? Fuck.

193 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:53:50pm

re: #191 garrick

Well I guess I am a misogynist(shrugs his shoulders),so be it: Put it this way:would you really want someone who did gymnastics for a few years as a child doing commentary for an olympics broadcast? How about a casual pond hockey player calling nhl games? Cause if you're cool with this kind of stuff,then your standards are even lower than mine.

It isn't rocket surgery. It's sports. I don't think the ability to be a good journalist on the subject depends on having played as a professional.

This may not make you a misogynist, but if you think it does, there's probably something else going on that I'd rather not hear about.

194 Lidane  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:53:51pm

re: #189 palomino

If you're still debating the "gay issue", you're party isn't as Modern as its name would imply.

Seriously. There's no debate about "gay issues". Either you favor full equality and full civil rights for LGBT people because it's common sense and the right thing to do, or you oppose it all because you think gay sex is icky and contagious or because of your superstitions.

195 allegro  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:54:51pm

re: #191 garrick

Well I guess I am a misogynist(shrugs his shoulders),so be it: Put it this way:would you really want someone who did gymnastics for a few years as a child doing commentary for an olympics broadcast? How about a casual pond hockey player calling nhl games? Cause if you're cool with this kind of stuff,then your standards are even lower than mine.

What is demonstrating a misogynist streak in your posts is due to your completely discounting this woman's accomplishments. You said yourself she was a champion. But, oh yeah, she's just a girl so she can't know anything or be a real athlete.

I doubt you would be making these arguments or comparisons if you were talking about a man with even less experience. So yeah, misogynist fits.

196 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:57:21pm

re: #16 HappyWarrior

Yep gotcha questions like what magazines do you read or name some important Supreme Court decisions (If I recall, she only could name Roe)

I thought Kelo vs. New London would have been a perfect one for her, but she skipped it.

197 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:57:56pm

re: #17 abolitionist

Couric: "What magazines do you read?"
Palin: "All of them."
lol

I found it astonishing that pundits were saying in cool blood that that was a classist question.

198 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:58:28pm

re: #190 wrenchwench

I got an email just now from Obama's campaign manager:

I got this email earlier:

There's a call coming up that you should join:

This Saturday, August 18th, OFA New Mexico is hosting a conference call with supporters across the state -- and Sheila E. is joining us to talk about why she's standing with President Obama and other Democrats, and to help get us fired up for the months ahead.

We're going to talk through our plan on the ground and the next steps to get even more New Mexicans to commit to pitching in.

Whether you're already leading this organization where you live or you're ready to take on a bigger role, you shouldn't miss this.

RSVP here for the conference call with Sheila E. at 12:00 p.m. Mountain Time on Saturday.

Once you've registered, we'll send along the number to dial and passcode to join.

You have a pivotal role to play over the next 80 days: registering new voters, leading teams of volunteers, and getting the word out about how things like President Obama's Affordable Care Act are making a real difference for Hispanics, women and other New Mexicans. This call will help you reach the most people in the most effective way out in your community.

Say you'll join us -- RSVP now:

[Link: nm.barackobama.com...]

Thanks,

Jocelyn

Jocelyn Mund
New Mexico Field Organizer
Organizing for America

Sheila E. is cool.

199 Lidane  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 12:58:39pm

re: #185 garrick

But again,my point was that you can't be an effective color commentator if you have never played the game.

Because no woman anywhere has ever played baseball. Ever. And the rules are so archaic and so hard to understand that they're impenetrable to anyone who hasn't played the game.

Tell me -- does your standard apply to male commentators who have never played a particular sport, or do you just save this idiotic bullshit to use against women?

200 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 1:01:03pm

re: #192 SpikeDad

Fuck. I'm usually with Obama but why must he pander to the idocracy of America by ending his speech with such nonsense as God Bless American and American is the best nation in the world. If if there were a god - THERE ISN'T - what ego-maniacal reason would there be to think American was the only country deserving of some blessing. And we're not the best nation in the world in many instances and if we're so self-important that's proof we're not the greatest. Isn't enough for us to be a Great Nation and a friend and support to our own people and the world? Fuck.

I sympathize. Our day will come*, but let's get this guy reelected first so it can come sooner rather than later.

*meaning the day atheists are accepted as normal

201 palomino  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 1:02:06pm

re: #149 Dark_Falcon

I am what I am, an older brother of a sister whom I love and spent a good deal of my younger days protecting. I am also one of my father's parents 18 grandchildren and many of my generation have children of their own, several of them having 3 or more. I also know that one-child families being the norm is the track that leads to demographic doomsday.

So if I am old-fashioned it is because both my upbringing and convictions have lead me to be so. And I make apology for neither of those things.

I have three older brothers, all very important to me. But I'm not gonna sit around bemoaning the fact that the world has changed. We don't live in a world of stasis. You can either accept and make the best of it of the fact that we are constantly socially evolving, or you can live in a world of nostalgia. I choose not to be a "back in my day" kind of guy. Families in developed countries often have zero or one child.

202 garrick  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 1:03:22pm

re: #193 wrenchwench

Your comment sortof shows your ignorance of sports broadcasting. Do you even understand what a color commentator is? They are not journalists as a general rule. They are former players who have achieved success in their sport and are hired to explain certain nuances of the sport to casual fans, provide first hand experiences so that fans can get a feel for what it's like to play the game at the highest level, and to tell amusing stories.

203 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 1:04:01pm

re: #196 SanFranciscoZionist

I thought Kelo vs. New London would have been a perfect one for her, but she skipped it.

You would think so since it's a fairly recent case. I think she went with Roe because it's probably the most well known case as well as the most controversial.

204 allegro  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 1:04:45pm

re: #202 garrick

Your comment sortof shows your ignorance of sports broadcasting. Do you even understand what a color commentator is? They are not journalists as a general rule. They are former players who have achieved success in their sport and are hired to explain certain nuances of the sport to casual fans, provide first hand experiences so that fans can get a feel for what it's like to play the game at the highest level, and to tell amusing stories.

You mean just like a champion athlete like her?

205 garrick  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 1:07:20pm

re: #204 allegro
Her being a champion in softball is irrelevant. Just so you know, softball and baseball are different sports.

206 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 1:08:10pm

re: #202 garrick

Your comment sortof shows your ignorance of sports broadcasting. Do you even understand what a color commentator is? They are not journalists as a general rule. They are former players who have achieved success in their sport and are hired to explain certain nuances of the sport to casual fans, provide first hand experiences so that fans can get a feel for what it's like to play the game at the highest level, and to tell amusing stories.

I know what a color commentator is. I gave you my opinion, because you seemed to be asking for one. I'm no longer interested in your opinion of my opinion.

207 allegro  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 1:08:40pm

re: #205 garrick

Her being a champion in softball is irrelevant. Just so you know, softball and baseball are different sports.

Wow, really? Thanks for mansplaining that. I had NO idea.

///

208 Tigger2  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 1:08:44pm

re: #41 Dark_Falcon

Translation: "We've still got too much government to grow! If we don't, you'll all be put in chain by corporate overlords!!1"

Typical Obaloney.

Part of the whinning society has spoken.re: #90 Dark_Falcon

True, but having a family network has its own benefits which tend to outweigh an only child's skill set. And those with siblings gain their own social skills as well.

That's ridicules.

209 allegro  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 1:10:33pm

re: #206 wrenchwench

I know what a color commentator is. I gave you my opinion, because you seemed to be asking for one. I'm no longer interested in your opinion of my opinion.

He asked us if we thought he was a misogynist. The answer is clear. Just not the one he wanted.

210 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 1:11:55pm

Gosh I'm a huge baseball fan and I could care less if a former softball Olympian offers her insight. They're different sports but the team dynamics that go into both sports are similar enough. And there are plenty of former baseball players who may have played the game for years but they still sound like idiots.

211 Lidane  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 1:13:30pm

re: #205 garrick

Her being a champion in softball is irrelevant. Just so you know, softball and baseball are different sports.

Really? And next, I assume you're going to tell us that what Americans call football and what the rest of the world calls football are two different things.

Or maybe you'll tell us how ice hockey and field hockey might both have the word hockey in them, but they're not the same.

212 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 1:16:21pm

bbl

213 garrick  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 1:16:40pm

re: #209 allegro

Actually I wanted intelligent and thoughtful opinions, not the "women are just as capable as men at everything" opinion which is all I've read so far. Talk about a hive mind.

214 Lidane  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 1:17:26pm

re: #213 garrick

Actually I wanted intelligent and thoughtful opinions, not the "women are just as capable as men at everything" opinion which is all I've read so far. Talk about a hive mind.

If you wanted intelligent and thoughtful opinions in return, maybe you should have offered some first.

215 allegro  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 1:17:30pm

re: #213 garrick

Actually I wanted intelligent and thoughtful opinions, not the "women are just as capable as men at everything" opinion which is all I've read so far. Talk about a hive mind.

You got them. What you didn't get was agreement. It seems that the latter is what you really came here for.

216 steve_davis  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 1:21:22pm

re: #16 HappyWarrior

Yep gotcha questions like what magazines do you read or name some important Supreme Court decisions (If I recall, she only could name Roe)

Actually, as I recall, she thought the decision was Roe v. Curly.

217 abolitionist  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 1:35:17pm

re: #213 garrick

Actually I wanted intelligent and thoughtful opinions, not the "women are just as capable as men at everything" opinion which is all I've read so far. Talk about a hive mind.

That downding was for Lise Meitner --first scientist to understand nuclear fission.

218 garrick  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 1:37:10pm

re: #217 abolitionist

????????????

219 abolitionist  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 1:38:17pm

re: #218 garrick

Should have won a Nobel Prize. Want a link?

220 garrick  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 1:45:27pm

re: #219 abolitionist

What does this have to do with a color commentator explaining why it's so hard to hit Mariano Rivera's cutter?

221 abolitionist  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 1:51:28pm

re: #220 garrick

What does this have to do with a color commentator explaining why it's so hard to hit Mariano Rivera's cutter?

Well, Meitner was exceptionally insightful about properties of (itty bitty) balls, and how they behave when hit by various things. Ok?

Youtube Video
222 garrick  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 1:53:55pm

Good for her, but what was her avg against Rivera?

223 Lidane  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 1:56:53pm

Here's what's hilarious. If a color commentator is only credible if they've played a particular game, this means that any coaches that do color commentary have nothing of value to say. After all, coaches don't actually get on the field and play a game. They might offer strategy or call particular plays from the sideline, but they're not the ones actually running or hitting.

Guess none of those former football coaches on ESPN or Fox are worth a damn. I mean, they just played in college or at levels under the pros that they coach. What the hell would they know about anything?

224 abolitionist  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 1:57:51pm

re: #222 garrick

I dunno. I lost interest in baseball after (accidentally) clobbering a catcher with my bat.

225 allegro  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:00:17pm

re: #223 Lidane

Here's what's hilarious. If a color commentator is only credible if they've played a particular game, this means that any coaches that do color commentary have nothing of value to say. After all, coaches don't actually get on the field and play a game. They might offer strategy or call particular plays from the sideline, but they're not the ones actually running or hitting.

Guess none of those former football coaches on ESPN or Fox are worth a damn. I mean, they just played in college or at levels under the pros that they coach. What the hell would they know about anything?

I keep thinking about Susan Sarandon's role in Bull Durham. Now there's a color commentator!

226 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:00:37pm

Vin Scully's been calling games for years now and I don't think he played any baseball after he left high school. And you know what he's a legend at calling games. Give the woman a chance before you say she can't call or understand the game because she never played. I've watched and listened to numerous baseball games called by people who played and didn't. And there were some who played the game who were great at explaining the game and how it works and some not so good. It's about the individual. Her gender is irrelevant.

227 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:03:14pm

re: #190 wrenchwench

I got an email just now from Obama's campaign manager:

Proper answer:

Mr. Messina,

Sorry, but you can't speak for the Democratic Super PACs so you can't speak for your whole side. Heck, according to President Obama your campaign cannot even speak for Harry Reid. Your offer thus would bring the Republican party only a little respite from one section of the Democratic Party and would open the door to further attacks by the entire party. We would gain little and lose much.

Your offer is therefore rejected.

Sincerely,

Dark_Falcon, for the GOP

228 allegro  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:04:42pm

re: #227 Dark_Falcon

Proper answer:

Mr. Messina,

Sorry, but you can't speak for the Democratic Super PACs so you can't speak for your whole side. Heck, according to President Obama your campaign cannot even speak for Harry Reid. Your offer thus would bring the Republican party only a little respite from one section of the Democratic Party and would open the door to further attacks by the entire party. We would gain little and lose much.

Your offer is therefore rejected.

Sincerely,

Dark_Falcon, for the GOP

If there was nothing there as he claims, what would there be to attack him with?

229 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:08:12pm

re: #227 Dark_Falcon

Proper answer:

Mr. Messina,

Sorry, but you can't speak for the Democratic Super PACs so you can't speak for your whole side. Heck, according to President Obama your campaign cannot even speak for Harry Reid. Your offer thus would bring the Republican party only a little respite from one section of the Democratic Party and would open the door to further attacks by the entire party. We would gain little and lose much.

Your offer is therefore rejected.

Sincerely,

Dark_Falcon, for the GOP

Dear GOP,

If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. If you want to be chef, show us your recipes.

Sincerely,

A taxpayer and voter

230 garrick  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:09:06pm

re: #226 HappyWarrior

Vin Scully is the greatest broadcaster to ever call the sport. But he's a play-by-play guy. He doesn't bother explaining the nuances of the sport because he's never had to face a pitcher throwing 98mph fastballs in on the hands.

231 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:13:28pm

re: #230 garrick

Vin Scully is the greatest broadcaster to ever call the sport. But he's a play-by-play guy. He doesn't bother explaining the nuances of the sport because he's never had to face a pitcher throwing 98mph fastballs in on the hands.

Just saying that her gender isn't relevant. Yeah I think it helps to have former players in the color commentary role but it's not like this woman hasn't played a sport that resembles baseball and doesn't understand what it's like to be on a team. And I think she deserves a shot to see the insight she can offer.

232 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:16:10pm

re: #228 allegro

If there was nothing there as he claims, what would there be to attack him with?

Just because everything in there is legal, doesn't mean some Super PAC couldn't spin something to make it look shady. Remember, political ads are under no obligation to provide a fair representation of the facts.

A counter offer would be possible if and only if all the major Super PACs for both sides were willing to agree to a code of standards for their campaign ads. Otherwise, Mitt Romney would be facing a situation wherein a Pro-Obama Super PAC distorted his tax returns while Jim Messina simply shrugged and said he was not to blame for the attacks. Which would be true, but that truth wouldn't help Mitt Romney.

No, swift rejection of Messina's offer was the correct answer.

233 allegro  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:19:33pm

re: #232 Dark_Falcon

Just because everything in there is legal, doesn't mean some Super PAC couldn't spin something to make it look shady. Remember, political ads are under no obligation to provide a fair representation of the facts.

A counter offer would be possible if and only if all the major Super PACs for both sides were willing to agree to a code of standards for their campaign ads. Otherwise, Mitt Romney would be facing a situation wherein a Pro-Obama Super PAC distorted his tax returns while Jim Messina simply shrugged and said he was not to blame for the attacks. Which would be true, but that truth wouldn't help Mitt Romney.

No, swift rejection of Messina's offer was the correct answer.

So he's better to look bad for hiding whatever is in his taxes that he's apparently afraid will come out? Because that's exactly what is happening. Even Republicans are calling for him to release his taxes like every other presidential candidate since his dad.

234 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:21:56pm

re: #233 allegro

So he's better to look bad for hiding whatever is in his taxes that he's apparently afraid will come out? Because that's exactly what is happening. Even Republicans are calling for him to release his taxes like every other presidential candidate since his dad.

More he holds out from releasing them the worse he looks. That may be unfair especially if he has nothing illegal in there but this is an issue he created for himself by being stubborn in refusing to release them. It's going to be a tough campaign either way. Release them and if you've got nothing hide, blast your opponents for making an issue out of it in the first place which will I admit be increasingly harder to do if he waits and waits. Romney can be his own worst enemy and this tax issue is one of those reasons.

235 Lidane  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:22:52pm

re: #232 Dark_Falcon

Just because everything in there is legal, doesn't mean some Super PAC couldn't spin something to make it look shady.

So basically, Mitt Romney and the right wing Super PACs are allowed to say whatever they want about President Obama, who has, BTW, released 12 years of tax returns, but no one is allowed to say anything bad about Mitt Romney because it might be unfair?

Pfft. If Romney can't handle it, then he has no business running for POTUS.

236 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:25:03pm

re: #235 Lidane

Pfft. If Romney can't handle it, then he has no business running for POTUS.

The old Truman quote applies here: If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Obama's had his birthright citizenship to this country questioned, and he's fought on. If Mitt can't handle a little criticism about his taxes, then he really doesn't belong in national politics. He seems like he wants to be able to have his allies dish it out but he doesn't want to be criticized himself. It's understandable since that's a human reaction but one really as you say has no business running for president with that kind of mindset.

237 allegro  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:25:08pm

re: #235 Lidane

So basically, Mitt Romney and the right wing Super PACs are allowed to say whatever they want about President Obama, who has, BTW, released 12 years of tax returns, but no one is allowed to say anything bad about Mitt Romney because it might be unfair?

Pfft. If Romney can't handle it, then he has no business running for POTUS.

This is what I don't get. He's been running for the office for years. His dad ran for the office. He knows what to expect. Instead of cleaning up his act and paying the taxes without all of the offshore accounts, etc. knowing that this had to come up, he preferred the money over the office. Says a lot.

238 garrick  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:34:15pm

re: #231 HappyWarrior

Actually I never really brought up gender except to say that no woman(in modern history)has ever played(or coached)at the professional level so they have no personal experiences or insight to pass on to the viewer.

Baseball is arguably the hardest sport to broadcast because pitchers and hitters often act as if they're being paid by the hour. It is the job of the color commentator to keep the casual viewers interested in the game. If they can't do that then viewers change the channel. And this why the major networks don't broadcast the sport anymore except the weekly game on fox and the world series(also on fox).

239 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:38:09pm

re: #238 garrick

Actually I never really brought up gender except to say that no woman(in modern history)has ever played(or coached)at the professional level so they have no personal experiences or insight to pass on to the viewer.

When you say 'I can't figure out if I'm being a misogynist.' it counts as bringing up gender.

You just trollin'?

240 Lidane  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:38:49pm

re: #238 garrick

Actually I never really brought up gender except to say that no woman(in modern history)has ever played(or coached)at the professional level so they have no personal experiences or insight to pass on to the viewer.

That's just it, though-- quite a few of the men who do color commentary on television have never played or coached at the professional level either. Should we ignore what they say during a game too?

241 allegro  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:40:11pm

re: #240 Lidane

That's just it, though-- quite a few of the men who do color commentary on television have never played or coached at the professional level either. Should we ignore what they say during a game too?

What about the men doing commentary on women's gymnastics? Have they ever had their "cheechnos" crushed after falling on the balance beam? Hmmm?

242 garrick  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:40:53pm

re: #240 Lidane

name one and I will concede your point. But again, I'm talking about color guys rather than play-by-play guys.

243 abolitionist  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:41:13pm

re: #240 Lidane

Exactly the point I made about Howard Cosell, and the book he wrote, I Never Played the Game.

244 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:41:42pm

re: #238 garrick

Actually I never really brought up gender except to say that no woman(in modern history)has ever played(or coached)at the professional level so they have no personal experiences or insight to pass on to the viewer.

Baseball is arguably the hardest sport to broadcast because pitchers and hitters often act as if they're being paid by the hour. It is the job of the color commentator to keep the casual viewers interested in the game. If they can't do that then viewers change the channel. And this why the major networks don't broadcast the sport anymore except the weekly game on fox and the world series(also on fox).

They're using her as a guest color commentator. I really don't see what the deal is. You're right, no woman has ever played professional baseball but don't you think she may have some insights involving what it's like to be on a team in a pennant race like situation since after all you pointed out that she was on a gold medal winning team.

245 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:44:31pm

It's true that color commentators are usually former players but it's also easy to see why TBS would do this. We're coming off the Olympics and she did win a gold medal with our national softball team. I realize they're not the same sport but I think she could offer some interesting insight. And as said, I've seen some former players, guys who were solid players at that not be good at the commentary game.

246 allegro  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:44:54pm

re: #244 HappyWarrior

You're right, no woman has ever played professional baseball...

Actually...

Women in Baseball History

247 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:45:49pm

re: #246 allegro

Actually...

Women in Baseball History

Ah I'm mistaken. Point taken. I was just thinking of only the MLB and wrongly at that. Clemente always said he got his arm from his mom. I always thought that was a cool story.

248 Lidane  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:57:44pm

re: #242 garrick

name one and I will concede your point. But again, I'm talking about color guys rather than play-by-play guys.

Last I checked, Chris Berman has never played professional sports and he's been on ESPN for what, 30 years? He does both play-by-play AND color commentary, so he fits.

249 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:59:17pm

re: #248 Lidane

Last I checked, Chris Berman has never played professional sports and he's been on ESPN for what, 30 years? He does both play-by-play AND color commentary, so he fits.

Berman's a great example, thanks. I was having a real hard time thinking of color guys who hadn't played but Berman is a good one because he's been around ESPN since its inception.

250 Lidane  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 2:59:47pm

re: #248 Lidane

James Brown over on Fox has never played pro sports either.

251 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 3:01:49pm

Tim Kurkjan is probably one of the best baseball minds ESPN has. I think Tim was the kid we all liked facing in Little League but he also was the kid who knew more about the game than 95% of us.

252 garrick  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 3:04:35pm

re: #247 HappyWarrior

Dude I would love to see a woman with filthy enough stuff to avg 10 Ks/game even at the single A level. I was a huge fan of the Colorado Silver Bullets and was very disappointed when they were disbanded.

To me,the issue is not having a woman in the broadcast booth per se, it's whether or not she can keep me entertained. I have mlbtv which allows me to watch any game(except the giants, local teams are blacked out). I frequently watch the yankees. Not a fan, I just love listening to the broadcast team. Same with the dodgers. I despise the team but Vin Scully is king.

So again, my instinct is that she can't provide me with enough insight into baseball to keep me entertained...unless she's funny.

253 garrick  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 3:16:32pm

re: #248 Lidane

Good point!

254 makeitstopghazi  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:08:48pm

re: #172 garrick

I can't figure out if I'm being a misogynist. TBS plans to have a woman in the broadcast booth on Sunday for their weekly baseball game. Michele Smith,who was apparently an olympic gold medalist in softball. I like my color commentators to explain what it's like in the clubhouse after a heartbreaking loss,why it's so damn hard to hit a knuckleball,what it's like to face a guy throwing a 98 mph fastball,etc.

Obviously she is disqualified to do this. But otoh, the odds of a woman achieving success at any level of baseball is practically nil.so by my standard there will never be a woman qualified to be a color commentator. Hence my dilemma.

Suzyn Waldman has been doing color commentary for Yankees radio broadcasts for years. She's very good at it.


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