Romney Staffer Promotes ‘Black-on-White Race War,’ Still Has Job

The Cassandra Files
Wingnuts • Views: 41,178

[Link: cassandrafiles.com…]

Back in May, Ric Grenell was frozen out of his position on the Romney foreign policy team for the crime of simply being openly gay. So it will be interesting to watch what happens to the campaign’s Social Media Director, Bill Murphy. Observe:

http://electionlulz.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Screen-Shot-2012-08-25-at-10.26.56-AM1.png

What you’re looking at is a screenshot (via Electionlulz.com) of a tweet sent by a fellow named Pat Dollard to a story on his site covering the much-ballyhooed-by-certain-people-on-the-right “black-on-white race war”. (So no. I won’t be linking to the story. Google it if you must.) As disturbing as that may be, it’s certainly not surprising. What is surprising is that among those 18 people retweeting the story is Romney’s social media director, Bill Murphy.

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484 comments
1 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:12:23pm

Ugly.

2 Stanghazi  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:18:10pm

Really ugly.

I get the impression that Romney has no freaking idea who is running his campaign. His goal is to win, whatever it takes.

And this relates directly to his business "acumen"

3 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:19:56pm

Pat Dollard and the other right wing Neanderthals who write at his site have really been pushing the "race war" craziness hard lately.

4 OhNoBenghazi!  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:20:58pm

Brilliant minority outreach strategy!
//
They don't have a big tent because it doubles as a white sheet.

5 Kragarghazi  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:23:33pm

But you see, their base doesn't like gays, but they're cool with the race war. I predict this guy stays on the campaign trail.

6 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:24:55pm

This story ran back in May. I'd have dismissed it, but there were a major string of attacks on people of other races by young black males, and it was not reported that the attackers were black. So I'm willing to cut some slack on this one.

Race War? No. But Racial tensions are high in Chicago these days, and bad actions by young black males are the reason. Chicago's murder rate has also soared, and its main victims are black.

7 Lidanghazi  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:25:34pm

He's not going to lose his job. The moment that the Romney camp fires him, the wingnuts and nutbars will start howling about the campaign giving in to PC elements, overly sensitive liberals and minorities, and to the lamestream media.

This is par for the course in the new GOP. They have to pander to the bigots in order to beat a black POTUS. Simple as that.

8 BongGhazi  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:27:17pm

What's the world coming to when a guy in a powerful position in a major political party can't approvingly retweet a harmless little story about genocide?

9 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:28:24pm

re: #8 BongCrodny

What's the world coming to when a guy in a powerful position in a major political party can't approvingly retweet a harmless little story about genocide?

It's not a story about genocide. Thomas Sowell himself is black, for crying out loud!

10 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:31:33pm

He seems to have an "interest" in race. I Tweeted this about a week ago:

11 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:32:20pm

re: #9 Dark_Falcon

Oh, spare me the indignation, Dark; while Sowell is intelligent, he's in the same camp as Rush, inasmuch they both pump out the OUTRAGEOUS OUTRAGE to their audiences, knowing that they're full of shit.

12 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:35:07pm

Just for some clarity, the article in question is here. I'm not going to quote it, but I do not believe it so bad as to be unwilling to link to it.

13 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:35:14pm
14 OhNoBenghazi!  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:35:23pm

re: #6 Dark_Falcon

"So I'm willing to cut some slack on this one."

You're kidding, right?
You going to cut some slack to some mother fuckers who would have no problem with my sons being killed because of some dumb asses in Wisconsin?
Because I'm not.
Explain that shit to me while I calm down.

15 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:35:30pm
16 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:35:47pm

re: #9 Dark_Falcon

Thomas Sowell himself is black, for crying out loud!

We noticed.

17 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:36:15pm
18 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:36:55pm
19 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:37:34pm

re: #13 Gus

[Embedded content]

re: #15 Gus

[Embedded content]

re: #17 Gus

[Embedded content]

re: #18 Gus

[Embedded content]

That's some serious weapons-grade derp there.

20 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:38:09pm
21 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:38:12pm

re: #14 OhNoZombies!

"So I'm willing to cut some slack on this one."

You're kidding, right?
You going to cut some slack to some mother fuckers who would have no problem with my sons being killed because of some dumb asses in Wisconsin?
Because I'm not.
Explain that shit to me while I calm down.

Would you please explain the bolded portion to me, so that I may properly reply?

22 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:38:34pm

RT @TeriChristoph: Because no one should be treated as a special interest group. Except blacks. And women. And gays. And Hispanics. #Oba ... Apr 08, 2012

23 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:38:51pm

RT @TwitchyTeam: Race-baiting Al Sharpton @TheRevAl: GOP has ‘war on blacks, time to fire back’ [Link: t.co...] May 10, 2012

24 Lidanghazi  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:38:54pm

Looking at the dates of these tweets, it's obvious that the Romney camp either has no problem with what he's saying, or they're oblivious to it all because they ignore social media.

Neither option inspires any confidence. Just imagine if this guy was the White House social media director.

25 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:40:33pm

re: #23 Gus

RT @TwitchyTeam: Race-baiting Al Sharpton @TheRevAl: GOP has ‘war on blacks, time to fire back’ [Link: t.co...] May 10, 2012

The 'source' is a Breitbart.com video, which is to say that the attack tweet has no source.

26 Ghazicide  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:41:37pm

The best thing to do when pestered with accusations of racism are to whine, play the victim, antagonize with more of the same, or accuse the accusers or racism.

That's the rational adult thing to do.

27 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:44:07pm

re: #15 Gus

[Embedded content]

Interesting in that Pat Buchanan didn't use the phrase "race war" in that article. Bill Murphy added that phrase.

28 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:46:51pm

re: #27 Gus

Interesting in that Pat Buchanan didn't use the phrase "race war" in that article. Bill Murphy added that phrase.

Pat doesn't have to spell it out. The true believers know what he's saying.

29 Ghazicide  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:47:47pm

Bill Nye Blasts Todd Akin, Challenges ‘Fucking Idiot’ to Debate

Bill Nye the WINNING Guy.

30 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:48:10pm

re: #26 Kronocide

The best thing to do when pestered with accusations of racism are to whine, play the victim, antagonize with more of the same, or accuse the accusers or racism.

That's the rational adult thing to do.

Trying to defend against a politically convenient charge of racism is very difficult if one is a Republican. Even if you can prove you weren't attacking people based on race, Democrats will still call something you said a "code word", because they feel it brings them political advantage.

Much better to counterattack, attacking the accuser's motives. The counter attack fires up your core supporters and can give you the chance to put some critical focus on the other side instead of on you.

31 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:49:53pm

re: #29 Kronocide

Bill Nye Blasts Todd Akin, Challenges ‘Fucking Idiot’ to Debate

Bill Nye the WINNING Guy.

Fake news alert.

32 OhNoBenghazi!  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:50:15pm

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

Would you please explain the bolded portion to me, so that I may properly reply?

Don't be obtuse.
But just in case I've given you more credit than you deserve, I know all about those black kids and those flash mobs. It's fucked up.
That said, why do these people go to the extreme and talk about race wars because of the bad behavior of a few kids.
Why would a Romney staffer retweet this garbage unless he agreed with it.
I'll tell you why. It's because they don't see our children as children, but as some fucking threat, as monsters that need to be conquered in order to preserve civilization. I'm not exaggerating.

And why would you cut them any slack?

33 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:51:44pm

re: #32 OhNoZombies!

Don't be obtuse.
But just in case I've given you more credit than you deserve, I know all about those black kids and those flash mobs. It's fucked up.
That said, why do these people go to the extreme and talk about race wars because of the bad behavior of a few kids.
Why would a Romney staffer retweet this garbage unless he agreed with it.
I'll tell you why. It's because they don't see our children as children, but as some fucking threat, as monsters that need to be conquered in order to preserve civilization. I'm not exaggerating.

And why would you cut them any slack?

The person I was cutting slack to was Thomas Sowell, not Bill Murphy. Sorry if I was unclear.

34 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:51:53pm

re: #30 Dark_Falcon

Trying to defend against a politically convenient charge of racism is very difficult if one is a Republican. Even if you can prove you weren't attacking people based on race, Democrats will still call something you said a "code word", because they feel it brings them political advantage.

Much better to counterattack, attacking the accuser's motives. The counter attack fires up your core supporters and can give you the chance to put some critical focus on the other side instead of on you.

DF. You can't defend a staffer for a man running for POTUS that's openly Tweeting about "race war." That's the reality of the internet driven world we live in today. And for him to be a "social media director" for the Romney campaign you would think he would know better. Imagine if you will some Obama staffer Tweeting about "race war." Think about it.

35 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:53:33pm

Whoops...fake news on that Nye story, but I'd love to hear him say this:

"So Todd I got an offer for you. You and me. Any time. Any place. Debating science mano- a-mano. I'll bring the facts, and you bring the Vaseline. Because your ass is gonna fucking need it when I'm done whipping."

36 Ghazicide  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:55:59pm

re: #31 Charles Johnson

Fake news alert.

Gah. Crap.

The lack of a link or video should have been my first red flag.

Plus Bill Nye is not a swear word guy.

Overworked and too much beer, that's my excuse OK thanks nevermind anyhoo...

37 Ghazicide  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:56:37pm

Thank you I'll have another.


6.

38 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:56:48pm

re: #35 Gert Fröbe

re: #18 Gus

Right on, Bill:

And this is even better:

Damn right Bill. This is the kind of reaction to these people we need. I can't believe the extent to which the far right has mainstreamed it's stupidity, bigotry and insanity. These people doing terrible damage to the country and they deserve no quarter.

39 OhNoBenghazi!  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:56:56pm

re: #33 Dark_Falcon

The person I was cutting slack to was Thomas Sowell, not Bill Murphy. Sorry if I was unclear.

Who deserves even less slack. This isn't about being conservative, he's sick from any angle you slice it.

40 freetoken  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:57:31pm

re: #20 Gus

The term "race realist" comes to mind.

41 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:57:52pm

re: #38 moderatelyradicalliberal

Damn right Bill. This is the kind of reaction to these people we need. I can't believe the extent to which the far right has mainstreamed it's stupidity, bigotry and insanity. These people doing terrible damage to the country and they deserve no quarter.

Dammit! I guess this is just what I wish people would say because these ignorant fucks drive me crazy.

42 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:59:18pm

re: #40 freetoken

The term "race realist" comes to mind.

This race war stuff is just an expressed desire for genocide. Black people make up 12% of the entire population in the USA, how in the world could we win this impending race war?

43 OhNoBenghazi!  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:01:43pm

re: #40 freetoken

Mithridatism doesn't work.
I used to read Vdare

44 Ghazicide  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:01:49pm

re: #40 freetoken

The term "race realist" comes to mind.

I'm more of a race 'give me a break-ist.'

45 Ben G. Hazi  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:02:01pm

re: #38 moderatelyradicalliberal

Damn right Bill. This is the kind of reaction to these people we need. I can't believe the extent to which the far right has mainstreamed it's stupidity, bigotry and insanity. These people doing terrible damage to the country and they deserve no quarter.

See above...the Nye "story" was "satire".

46 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:02:30pm

re: #45 Gert Fröbe

See above...the Nye "story" was "satire".

Yeah I saw and responded to my own comment.

47 freetoken  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:04:00pm

re: #43 OhNoZombies!

Mithridatism doesn't work.
I used to read Vdare

Hehe...

Speaking of VDARE, I just checked and noticed they are promoting (at the top of the page) Michelle Malkin's plea to help find her cousin.

I think we can safely conclude by now that Michelle Malkin is fully on the VDARE train.

Someone should ask Murphy what he thinks about VDARE, or better yet, Derbyshire.

48 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:04:55pm

Bill Murphy won't get fired because the GOP sells white victimhood. It's a part of their brand.

And even if R-money gets curb stomped by PBO because R-money couldn't win enough minority or white voters, they won't stop selling it to their base.

49 OhNoBenghazi!  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:06:00pm

I apologize for my colorful use of language, I could have been more nuanced.

50 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:08:50pm

re: #39 OhNoZombies!

Who deserves even less slack. This isn't about being conservative, he's sick from any angle you slice it.

Sowell wants to place all the blame on grievance mongers and race hustlers, such ignorant bullshit.

What happens to a dream deferred?

Does it dry up
like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?

Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.

Or does it explode?

-Langston Hughes

Sowell is ignoring the obvious consequences of continued racial disparity in wealth, income, education and opportunity built into the structure of our society. Conservatives like ignoring the effects of starting conditions on the state of our economic model, choosing to pretend that simplistic de jure equality overrides an inconveniently unequal reality.

51 dragonath  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:13:28pm

Bain Capital Under Investigation for Tax Avoidance

52 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:14:10pm

re: #48 moderatelyradicalliberal

Bill Murphy won't get fired because the GOP sells white victimhood. It's a part of their brand.

And even if R-money gets curb stomped by PBO because R-money couldn't win enough minority or white voters, they won't stop selling it to their base.

They'll stop selling it only when it's mathematically impossible for them to win with it. Since it's unlikely that the Democrats will run a black candidate in 2016 and the demographics will continue to change this Republican run may be the last national campaign capable of running almost exclusively on white resentment.

53 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:19:56pm

re: #50 goddamnedfrank

That's not the point. The point is that Chicago's crime problem is severely disproportionally the fault of young black males and that the media does not not say this openly, but instead allows for the idea that racism is still to blame for these problems. But it is not racism, but family breakdown and nihilism that are to blame, along with poor policing. Any aid needs to put focus on cultural change to break the cycle of fatherlessness and illegitimacy that leads to so much of Chicago's crime. Boys need to be raised better, and that requires better male role models.

54 HappyBenghazi  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:21:02pm

Yikes.

55 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:22:58pm

re: #51 dragonath

Bain Capital Under Investigation for Tax Avoidance

It seems clear that Mitt Romney was not involved, since the practice of investing income from fees is not one he was permitted to engage in by his retirement agreement nor has he done so in contravention of same.

56 Stanghazi  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:27:07pm

NOT going here tonight. See ya'll tomorrow. Take care.

57 BongGhazi  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:29:06pm

re: #55 Dark_Falcon

It seems clear that Mitt Romney was not involved, since the practice of investing income from fees is not one he was permitted to engage in by his retirement agreement nor has he done so in contravention of same.

I agree. Mitt was not a crook himself, he only worked with them.

58 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:34:09pm

re: #57 BongCrodny

I agree. Mitt was not a crook himself, he only worked with them.

It's not even clear that the practice is illegal. What should happen is that Congress should pass legislation to clarify the matter and if state law is involved New York state's legislature should do likewise. Hard to actually get to happen, though, as Congress spend more time on grandstanding these days than legislating. And that goes for both houses, in case you were wondering.

59 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:35:04pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

That's not the point. The point is that Chicago's crime problem is severely disproportionally the fault of young black males and that the media does not not say this openly, but instead allows for the idea that racism is still to blame for these problems. But it is not racism, but family breakdown and nihilism that are to blame, along with poor policing. Any aid needs to put focus on cultural change to break the cycle of fatherlessness and illegitimacy that leads to so much of Chicago's crime. Boys need to be raised better, and that requires better male role models.

Bill Cosby Final Clip Fatherhood Task Force

Youtube Video
60 OhNoBenghazi!  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:38:31pm

re: #47 freetoken

He would say that they were brave and the only ones that will not be cowed by liberal blank-slaters. HBD is a reality that we ignore at the peril of our society. Race is real ! IQ is real ! The Flynn effect is a joke !

wasted money, blah, liberal social engineering, blah blah blah.

:)

61 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:42:01pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

That's not the point. The point is that Chicago's crime problem is severely disproportionally the fault of young black males and that the media does not not say this openly, but instead allows for the idea that racism is still to blame for these problems. But it is not racism, but family breakdown and nihilism that are to blame, along with poor policing. Any aid needs to put focus on cultural change to break the cycle of fatherlessness and illegitimacy that leads to so much of Chicago's crime. Boys need to be raised better, and that requires better male role models.

LOL. The point is you prefer focusing on symptoms rather than root causes. You fixate on race and actually say racist shit like "Chicago's crime problem is severely disproportionally the fault of young black males." The fault predominately lies with the society that makes so many young black males feel that their future options are all closed off. You were born white to an upper middle class family, but that's not the reason you like surface level analyses and non-insructive answers, the reason you gravitate towards simplistic non thoughts is because confronting root causes would mean challenging your hand me down ideology.

Your focus on role models and fatherlessness is similarly hand me down nonsense, especially the idea of tying aid to induce cultural change, treating real struggling people with complex problems like simpleminded animals amenable to carrot and stick based incentives. Divorce and children raised in non traditional families is an incredibly complicated subject, not all that conducive to being fixed by reflexively blaming fatherlessness.

62 makeitstopghazi  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:44:55pm

re: #55 Dark_Falcon

It seems clear that Mitt Romney was not involved, since the practice of investing income from fees is not one he was permitted to engage in by his retirement agreement nor has he done so in contravention of same.

Maybe.

Still, you couldn't ask for worse optics. The two things that will stick from this story is that 1) Bain possibly sharked the government out of millions in taxes, and 2) The Guy Who Won't Show His Tax Returns used to run the place.

63 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:47:32pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

That's not the point. The point is that Chicago's crime problem is severely disproportionally the fault of young black males

You're using the word 'fault' very loosely. There's certainly a disparity of crime committed by young black males, but assigning collective fault to young black males because of that is stupid.

What you mean is that a disproportionate number of the people who commit crimes are young black males. That's true. The obvious next step is to talk about why that is so. You obviously don't think black people are by nature more likely to commit crimes, so what is your explanation?

64 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:49:32pm

Whistles.

65 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:50:21pm

re: #61 goddamnedfrank

LOL. The point is you prefer focusing on symptoms rather than root causes. You fixate on race and actually say racist shit like "Chicago's crime problem is severely disproportionally the fault of young black males." The fault predominately lies with the society that makes so many young black males feel that their future options are all closed off. You were born white to an upper middle class family, but that's not the reason you like surface level analyses and non-insructive answers, the reason you gravitate towards simplistic non thoughts is because confronting root causes would mean challenging your hand me down ideology.

Your focus on role models and fatherlessness is similarly hand me down nonsense, especially the idea of tying aid to induce cultural change, treating real struggling people with complex problems like simpleminded animals amenable to carrot and stick based incentives. Divorce and children raised in non traditional families is an incredibly complicated subject, not all that conducive to being fixed by reflexively blaming fatherlessness.

Half of that is about Dark Falcon.

66 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:51:45pm

re: #61 goddamnedfrank

I don't agree with that at all. Family breakdown is one of the root causes IMO, as it causes young men to grow up lacking discipline and with bad role models near to hand. Teach the young the right ways to live, and doors heretofore shut will be opened.

67 Ghazicide  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:52:25pm

re: #64 Gus

Whistles.

Woof!

68 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:53:10pm

re: #66 Dark_Falcon

I don't agree with that at all. Family breakdown is one of the root causes IMO, as it causes young men to grow up lacking discipline and with bad role models near to hand. Teach the young the right ways to live, and doors heretofore shut will be opened.

I agree with both of you. Except for the personal stuff. I'm kind of surprised that at LGF where we purport to "live by science" are settling on dogmatic ideas that almost seem to be set in stone. That it upsets people personally.

69 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:54:14pm

Society is like an organism. It's very complicated.

70 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:55:06pm

re: #64 Gus

Whistles.

No whistle here, Gus. I don't believe that nihilism and criminality are the products of a man's ancestry, but rather that they are often (but by no means always) the products of a man's upbringing.

71 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:55:16pm

Education is very important. Environmental racism plays a role. Poverty. Economic. Family. Dysfunctional families. Air pollution. Noise pollution...

72 Ghazicide  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:56:30pm

So why are the young black men of bad upbringing? Since it's not because of the ancestry and all.

73 Kragarghazi  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:56:42pm

New season of Doctor Who starts in 5 minutes

74 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:58:00pm

re: #72 Kronocide

So why are the young black men of bad upbringing? Since it's not because of the ancestry and all.

It's complicated and explanations vary. Suffice it as a start to say that growing up in an environment where you have no shield from the gangs and crime is not conductive to learning to be a good man,

75 makeitstopghazi  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:58:01pm

re: #73 Kragar

New season of Doctor Who starts in 5 minutes

No spoilers! We're recording it.

76 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:59:25pm

OT, on a slightly lighter note...
Just paged a few shots taken at the Grand Canyon today. Astonishing views there, hard to find a different shot.

77 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:59:55pm

re: #74 Dark_Falcon

It's complicated and explanations vary. Suffice it as a start to say that

Population density.

78 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:01:35pm

Not being able to get a healthy night's sleep because the neighbor's door keeps slamming and he plays loud music until 4 AM. The guy upstairs is always moving around furniture. Every, single, night, of the week.

79 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:02:16pm

Can't afford a nice place to live.

80 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:02:25pm

re: #77 Gus

Population density.

I hit the wrong button. I used the pencil to finish what I wanted to say. Please refresh and see the whole thing.

81 Ghazicide  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:03:25pm

re: #74 Dark_Falcon

It's complicated and explanations vary. Suffice it as a start to say that

Of course it's complicated. I don't expect a concise dissertation distilled down to a few sentences, that's probably impossible.

But I do wonder if it's going to border on some indictment of left based policies. Which leaves me to wonder if those left based policies merely had flaws in their efforts to induce change, of which the negative outcomes of those flaws or errors are indictments of trying to effect change in the first place.

If those efforts were never undertaken, would things have been worse?

82 OhNoBenghazi!  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:04:43pm

Culture is organic, and cyclic. It doesn't develop in a vacuum.
Proper development depends on an environment that is as healthy as possible.

83 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:08:25pm

re: #74 Dark_Falcon

It's complicated and explanations vary. Suffice it as a start to say that growing up in an environment where you have no shield from the gangs and crime is not conductive to learning to be a good man,

What does this moderate and level talk from you have to do with the stupid article by Sowell spreading the lie of 'race war'?

84 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:08:46pm

re: #82 OhNoZombies!

Culture is organic, and cyclic. It doesn't develop in a vacuum.
Proper development depends on an environment that is as healthy as possible.

You have to see, expect, a future. You have to see hope.

85 ozbloke  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:09:18pm

re: #70 Dark_Falcon

I don't believe that nihilism and criminality are the products of a man's ancestry, but rather that they are often (but by no means always) the products of a man's upbringing.

Then you missing half the story.
We all have a history, from our families, whether you knew them or not.
You have been brought up hearing these stories, from a young and impressionable age.
They form part of who you are, and the biases you start from.

86 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:11:19pm

re: #83 Obdicut

What does this moderate and level talk from you have to do with the stupid article by Sowell spreading the lie of 'race war'?

That's pretty funny.

87 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:13:28pm

re: #86 Gus

Que?

88 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:15:36pm

re: #87 Obdicut

Que?

The way it reads. It's funny. Built-in deadpan.

89 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:16:46pm

re: #85 ozbloke

Then you missing half the story.
We all have a history, from our families, whether you knew them or not.
You have been brought up hearing these stories, from a young and impressionable age.
They form part of who you are, and the biases you start from.

That's part of what DF means when he says, "are often (but by no means always) the products of a man's upbringing." Unless I'm missing something.

90 OhNoBenghazi!  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:18:54pm

re: #84 Gus

Absolutely. And when one has been consistently disenfranchised from society as a whole, then you feel you have no stake in that society. You have nothing to lose.

91 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:19:34pm

re: #88 Gus

Oh, well I was being serious. What Dark is saying now is completely reasonable. Claiming that some attacks on white people by black people constitutes a race war, and a censored one, is pants-on-head stupid, and dangerous as fuck.

92 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:21:35pm

re: #91 Obdicut

Oh, well I was being serious. What Dark is saying now is completely reasonable. Claiming that some attacks on white people by black people constitutes a race war, and a censored one, is pants-on-head stupid, and dangerous as fuck.

Copy that.

93 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:22:57pm

re: #91 Obdicut

Oh, well I was being serious. What Dark is saying now is completely reasonable. Claiming that some attacks on white people by black people constitutes a race war, and a censored one, is pants-on-head stupid, and dangerous as fuck.

It's interesting to think of race war. Some would say racism is a part of an ongoing race war. Which is counter-intuitive to many conservatives -- some would say the majority.

94 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:25:53pm

Most of it is attractive to Cletus and company in which they get to fantasize a real war in which they get to play fort or army once again -- while shootin' their gunz!

95 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:26:12pm

re: #83 Obdicut

What does this moderate and level talk from you have to do with the stupid article by Sowell spreading the lie of 'race war'?

I don't think he thinks there is some kind of organized 'war' in progress. What I read in his words is that he sees a serious amount of anti-white feeling in the young men of some black communities, a sentiment sometimes fanned by irresponsible rhetoric from those claiming to act in the interests of those same communities. What he really fears is a campaign of reprisal by white people in response to these attacks. Sowell argues the danger of such reprisals would be lessened if the media were more willing to explain the problem.

96 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:26:58pm

I have two black friends who grew up in a similar neighborhood in Chicago. One of them was the good-as-gold kid, who figured his best way out of all this shit was through education. he had a Jamaican mother who really bore down on him, too.

My other friend was a troublemaker, stealing shit as a preteen and moving on to being a drug lookout for gangs when he was in his teenage years. He got stabbed by a guy looking to rob the dealers, and when he was in hospital he rethought his life a little bit and when he got out he bummed around a bit and got a construction job and pulled his life together.

The similarity between these two kids during their teenage years is that both of them regularly got hassled by the police, the good-as-gold one and the actual criminal. The good kid got put up against the wall, frisked, questioned as to what he was doing and why, had his stuff searched, and was hit, called names, and occasionally taken down and put in the drunk tank.

He never did anything wrong. He got harassed all the time. This is because he was black and in a shitty neighborhood. It happens. Talk to any black kids who grew up in a shady neighborhood, and they'll tell you about the at least semi-antagonistic relationship with the police.

Now, the good as gold kid turned out okay, but he shouldn't have had to go through that and many other kids with less motivation would have been beaten down by that, thought "Why bother, the system is stacked against me anyway," and looked for an easy out.

97 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:27:32pm

re: #95 Dark_Falcon

I made a change to #95 since posting it. Please refresh and read it again before replying.

98 ozbloke  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:27:53pm

re: #88 Gus

He's missing half the story because he forgot about family members telling stories?

Our beliefs and values are influenced from the things we have learnt, we have concepts shaped by what we have heard, either directly or indirectly from conversations around us.
Many of them via our family or guardians, we generally accept them, that influences how we 'feel' about things, it can be our 'gut feeling'.

It can be negative or positive.
I didn't think Dark was considering this in #70

99 gwangung  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:28:53pm

re: #81 Kronocide

Of course it's complicated. I don't expect a concise dissertation distilled down to a few sentences, that's probably impossible.

But I do wonder if it's going to border on some indictment of left based policies.

Couldn't someone argue that this is just as much from thwarting left-based policies? Because it's certainly the case that efforts to ameliorate black poverty (and poverty in general) have not been consistent over the years and have bee nowhere as strong as they were years ago.

100 OhNoBenghazi!  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:29:30pm

re: #91 Obdicut

Oh, well I was being serious. What Dark is saying now is completely reasonable. Claiming that some attacks on white people by black people constitutes a race war, and a censored one, is pants-on-head stupid, and dangerous as fuck.

Yes. It's not a game to some of these people. It's not something you want to hear from a bunch of gun nuts.
To me, they're terrorists.

101 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:30:59pm

re: #98 ozbloke

Our beliefs and values are influenced from the things we have learnt, we have concepts shaped by what we have heard, either directly or indirectly from conversations around us.
Many of them via our family or guardians, we generally accept them, that influences how we 'feel' about things, it can be our 'gut feeling'.

It can be negative or positive.
I didn't think Dark was considering this in #70

Yes I was considering it. But I had pushed the wrong button and posted the comment incomplete. I thus had only a limited amount of time once the pencil button was pushed to get my remaining words in. In that need for haste, some elaboration I would otherwise have done have done had to be dropped.

102 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:31:21pm

re: #95 Dark_Falcon

I don't think he thinks there is some kind of organized 'war' in progress.

Then he should stop calling it a race war, which is a scaremongering, stupid, bullshit phrase for it.

What I read in his words is that he sees a serious amount of anti-white feeling in the young men of some black communities, a sentiment sometimes fanned by irresponsible rhetoric from those claiming to act in the interests of those same communities.

A lot of the anti-white feeling in black communities comes from the fact that blacks are discriminated against in the legal system, discriminated against in hiring, have in general worse schools thanks to our property-tax based setup, and the time during which blacks were set upon by dogs for daring to assert that they were the equal of whites is within recent memory.

What he really fears is a campaign of reprisal by white people in response to these attacks. Sowell argues the danger of such reprisals would be lessened if the media were more willing to explain the problem.

Nope. He has one explanation: it's the fault of race hustlers. He rejects the idea that poverty and discrimination or anything else other than 'race hustlers' are the root cause of this. He ignores that crime rates have in fact been fucking falling for decades, so he can scaremonger about a race war. It is a stupid, pathetic, bullshit piece by a sad excuse of a thinker, who steadfastly ignores everything other than his predetermined conclusion.

He has the stupidity to compare the 1950s to today, and ask why violence is worse, as though he'd never heard of the drug epidemic. What a stupid, stupid article.

103 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:31:56pm

re: #96 Obdicut

Profiling. Daily.

104 ozbloke  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:32:00pm

re: #101 Dark_Falcon

Yes I was considering it. But I had pushed the wrong button and posted the comment incomplete. I thus had only a limited amount of time once the pencil button was pushed to get my remaining words in. In that need for haste, some elaboration I would otherwise have done have done had to be dropped.

Thank's Dark

105 makeitstopghazi  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:32:09pm

re: #101 Dark_Falcon

Yes I was considering it. But I had pushed the wrong button and posted the comment incomplete. I thus had only a limited amount of time once the pencil button was pushed to get my remaining words in. In that need for haste, some elaboration I would otherwise have done have done had to be dropped.

I thought Charles had upped pencil time to 30 minutes?

106 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:33:58pm

re: #105 makeitstop

I thought Charles had upped pencil time to 30 minutes?

He may well have done so, but I did not remember that he had.

107 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:34:32pm

re: #103 Gus

Profiling. Daily.

The stop and frisk program in New York is aimed at black people and Hispanics. Black people alone are 80% of the stop and frisks. Stop and frisk inevitably means that huge numbers of completely innocent young black men are expected to endure this humiliation and indignity cheerfully, when they know that they are being stopped because of the color of their skin and where they live.

It's short-sighted and appallingly dumb.

108 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:35:30pm

re: #107 Obdicut

Stigmatization. A literal act of public shaming. Because most would have to be innocent.

109 gwangung  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:35:48pm

re: #102 Obdicut

Nope. He has one explanation: it's the fault of race hustlers. He rejects the idea that poverty and discrimination or anything else other than 'race hustlers' are the root cause of this. He ignores that crime rates have in fact been fucking falling for decades, so he can scaremonger about a race war. It is a stupid, pathetic, bullshit piece by a sad excuse of a thinker, who steadfastly ignores everything other than his predetermined conclusion.

If we accept that there is less upward class mobility than in the past, then that lowers buy-in into the system; why bother playing by the rules if you're not going to get rewarded for it? Add to that the persistent profiling done, and it's no wonder that there is a lot of anti-white feelings out there.

110 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:37:49pm

re: #89 Gus

That's part of what DF means when he says, "are often (but by no means always) the products of a man's upbringing." Unless I'm missing something.

The really ignorant part lies in D_F's ideological focus on fatherlessness. Especially in as much as he completely ignores notably inconvenient counter examples:

The authors found that children raised by lesbian mothers — whether the mother was partnered or single — scored very similarly to children raised by heterosexual parents on measures of development and social behavior. These findings were expected, the authors said; however, they were surprised to discover that children in lesbian homes scored higher than kids in straight families on some psychological measures of self-esteem and confidence, did better academically and were less likely to have behavioral problems, such as rule-breaking and aggression.

111 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:38:48pm

re: #109 gwangung

And now we have the GOP candidate for President, Mitt Romney, openly accusing black people of just wanting free stuff. It's pathetic. We've gone backwards so quickly in race relations. The GOP's embrace of the Southern Strategy not only was a cynical, terrible thing, but it perpetuated racism, because it was useful to the GOP. It became something nurtured by the GOP, helped along by the right-wing media, and it still is today, with Drudge vomiting anti-black link after anti-black link, while all the while crime has fallen and fallen over decades.

The GOP's return to hardcore racism is sad as hell. And it will continue to foster and encourage racism in America.

112 ozbloke  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:40:33pm

re: #106 Dark_Falcon

Sorry to hear about your job Dark, I hope it will mean a step up for you.

I say seek something out in American military history.
You would be good at it, and come from a place of good knowledge to start with.

// Recent political history, not so much ;)

113 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:41:19pm

re: #110 goddamnedfrank

The really ignorant part lies in D_F's ideological focus on fatherlessness. Especially in as much as he completely ignores notably inconvenient counter examples:

When one says "fatherlessness" it's probably a loaded term because it can be seen as degrading to LGBT parenting. Perhaps the better word would be parentless. But there's more to fatherlessness then just the patriarchal connotations. There are many single mothers who raise great children.

114 freetoken  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:42:05pm

Google continues to destroy its search engine usability. Increasingly, I'm having trouble in finding a Google cache of particular pages, even when the search engine indicates there is supposed to be one.

115 OhNoBenghazi!  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:42:40pm

re: #99 gwangung

Those policies are like placing a bandaid over a bullet hole.
The solution would require a seismic shift in American culture.
First and foremost, we need to stop...

Where did everybody go?
I'll stop. Sorry.

116 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:43:25pm

re: #113 Gus

It's important to remember all this stuff is just probability. My friend Peter is a great guy who's mom had him at sixteen and who's father fucked off forever. Peter is in Cornell medical school, is charming and well-balanced. He has a great relationship with his mother, who did a hell of a job (along with extended family) in raising him, and it shows.

And he thinks my jokes are awesome, so you know he's smart.

/

117 OhNoBenghazi!  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:43:55pm

Never mind. I just had to refresh.

118 gwangung  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:45:09pm

re: #111 Obdicut

And now we have the GOP candidate for President, Mitt Romney, openly accusing black people of just wanting free stuff. It's pathetic. We've gone backwards so quickly in race relations. The GOP's embrace of the Southern Strategy not only was a cynical, terrible thing, but it perpetuated racism, because it was useful to the GOP. It became something nurtured by the GOP, helped along by the right-wing media, and it still is today, with Drudge vomiting anti-black link after anti-black link, while all the while crime has fallen and fallen over decades.

The GOP's return to hardcore racism is sad as hell. And it will continue to foster and encourage racism in America.

I am reminded of the 90s, when approximately half the Asian American population in the state of Washington was Republican, and there were a number of elected Asian American officials.

That's not the case now (20+ difference in affiliation). I mean, the group was there for the taking for Republicans, but they pretty much pissed it away. And it's going to take years of work in just the Asian American population to get it back, and DECADES in the black population. And no one should blame anyone except the Republicans for this.

119 freetoken  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:46:21pm

The reason I wanted a cache of a web page is because, with all this talk of race and race wars, I went over to Alternative Right and one of their current featured articles is so rancid, especially in the comments, that one wouldn't think that a site which advertises itself as appealing to a more educated "race realist" would go that direction.

Put simply, it is beginning to look like an gaggle of European racist anarchists.

120 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:47:14pm

re: #116 Obdicut

It's important to remember all this stuff is just probability. My friend Peter is a great guy who's mom had him at sixteen and who's father fucked off forever. Peter is in Cornell medical school, is charming and well-balanced. He has a great relationship with his mother, who did a hell of a job (along with extended family) in raising him, and it shows.

And he thinks my jokes are awesome, so you know he's smart.

/

It could be a fatherless gay-trans situation.

In seriousness it's not just "fatherlessness" alone it has to have an associated high level of dysfunction including the surrounding environment. It's not the why or the what in coupling, but the how.

121 ozbloke  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:47:40pm

re: #118 gwangung

And no one should blame anyone except the Republicans for this.

I think many were just eager to believe.

122 Mich-again  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:47:57pm

I think there is overlap between racism and class warfare.

In general, people with money do not like to hang around people without money. In general white people have more money than people who aren't white.

123 Mich-again  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:51:11pm

In other words, if a wealthy African American family moves into the subdivision chances are none of the white folk neighbors will object. Take that same subdivision and tell them X number of foreclosed houses will be given to poor families through a HUD program and the neighborhood association will go ballistic.

124 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:51:15pm

re: #122 Mich-again

I think there is overlap between racism and class warfare.

In general, people with money do not like to hang around people without money. In general white people have more money than people who aren't white.

And it's really hard to understand the problems of true poverty unless you've been really poor yourself. A lot of people don't understand how much it affects you, how much it interferes with everything from getting an education to getting a job. It's kind of funny; poverty is obviously one of the most harmful things to your prospects in a capitalist society, and we all acknowledge that having money is a good thing, and yet a lot of people convince themselves poverty isn't really a barrier.

125 OhNoBenghazi!  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:55:00pm

re: #123 Mich-again

In other words, if a wealthy African American family moves into the subdivision chances are none of the white folk neighbors will object. Take that same subdivision and tell them X number of foreclosed houses will be given to poor families through a HUD program and the neighborhood association will go ballistic.

They won't object after the background check on your family.
Funny, they didn't think we would find out.

126 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:55:52pm

re: #122 Mich-again

I think there is overlap between racism and class warfare.

In general, people with money do not like to hang around people without money. In general white people have more money people who aren't white.

Free commerce. The ability to spend. Trade. The latter being the most important for a healthy society. It is when we trade freely and equally amongst our global population.

127 Mich-again  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:55:57pm

re: #124 Obdicut

And it's really hard to understand the problems of true poverty unless you've been really poor yourself. A lot of people don't understand how much it affects you, how much it interferes with everything from getting an education to getting a job. It's kind of funny; poverty is obviously one of the most harmful things to your prospects in a capitalist society, and we all acknowledge that having money is a good thing, and yet a lot of people convince themselves poverty isn't really a barrier.

That is so true. People have no concept of what it is like trying to find a job and getting there every day if you live in a dead city like Detroit and don't have a car. There is no public transportation to speak of and no local businesses that will hire people off the street. WTF are they supposed to do to earn a living.

128 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:57:01pm

re: #127 Mich-again

That is so true. People have no concept of what it is like trying to find a job and getting there every day if you live in a dead city like Detroit and don't have a car. There is no public transportation to speak of and no local businesses that will hire people off the street. WTF are they supposed to do to earn a living.

Wait--DETROIT has no public transportation? What? My hometown had public transportation, and it was just a podunk place.

129 Mich-again  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:01:00pm

re: #128 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Wait--DETROIT has no public transportation? What? My hometown had public transportation, and it was just a podunk place.

Technically there is public transportation. However you could not rely on it to get you to work every day. I think Detroit would be better off with the Baht Bus system like I saw in Thailand earlier this year than a half ass rag tag public transportation system like the DOT and MDOT.

130 freetoken  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:02:41pm

re: #127 Mich-again

The automobile is an important tool of our social hierarchy system - it allows people to demonstrate their social stature more than just about anything else.

That's why so many Americans despise mass transportation - it means the easy (and relatively safe, compared say to wearing jewelry) way to show off how much better one is to others is taken off the table.

Other ways to differentiate oneself, say by clothing or language, require more training than just running down to the local luxury car dealer and buying the most expensive machine one can get by with.

131 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:05:23pm

re: #130 freetoken

The automobile is an important tool of our social hierarchy system - it allows people to demonstrate their social stature more than just about anything else.

That's why so many Americans despise mass transportation - it means the easy (and relatively safe, compared say to wearing jewelry) way to show off how much better one is to others is taken off the table.

Other ways to differentiate oneself, say by clothing or language, require more training than just running down to the local luxury car dealer and buying the most expensive machine one can get by with.

The primary destination of Denver's light rail is Denver. The busiest and most populated is from the suburbs. Standing room only. Some people sitting on the floor. That would be Tom Tancredo country. Highlands Ranch and such. They're all headed for Denver to go to work.

132 freetoken  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:08:50pm

re: #131 Gus

The wonderful thing about this universe is that we all have to follow how everything really works, regardless of our own fantasy about ourselves.

Which means, if it takes less resources (energy) to ride a train than going by oneself in an automobile, that is just the way it is.

133 labman57  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:10:08pm

Helter Skelter redux.
Charles Manson called -- he wants his perverse, delusional, racist fantasy back.

134 Kragarghazi  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:11:27pm

re: #75 makeitstop

No spoilers! We're recording it.

AWESOMENESS ENSUED!

135 OhNoBenghazi!  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:11:55pm

re: #130 freetoken

The automobile is an important tool of our social hierarchy system - it allows people to demonstrate their social stature more than just about anything else.

That's why so many Americans despise mass transportation - it means the easy (and relatively safe, compared say to wearing jewelry) way to show off how much better one is to others is taken off the table.

Other ways to differentiate oneself, say by clothing or language, require more training than just running down to the local luxury car dealer and buying the most expensive machine one can get by with.

Do you think that part of the out-cry against the ACA or even a universal healthcare program, is because having private/employee based insurance is another aspect of social stratification?
I think so.

136 Mich-again  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:13:19pm

In the developing world, which I consider parts of Detroit to be, the key mobility enabler is the 50cc motor scooter, like the Vespa. You have probably seen a few around, but not so many. The scooters are the Model T of the 21st century. Cheap simple transportation for the masses.

137 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:13:39pm

re: #130 freetoken

The automobile is an important tool of our social hierarchy system - it allows people to demonstrate their social stature more than just about anything else.

That's why so many Americans despise mass transportation - it means the easy (and relatively safe, compared say to wearing jewelry) way to show off how much better one is to others is taken off the table.

Other ways to differentiate oneself, say by clothing or language, require more training than just running down to the local luxury car dealer and buying the most expensive machine one can get by with.

Um, no, I don't like mass transportation because it takes so much longer than just driving--unless I am driving into downtown Portland, in which case parking costs a lot, I get lost, and it's a hassle, so I take MAX.

138 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:14:48pm

re: #135 OhNoZombies!

Do you think that part of the out-cry against the ACA or even a universal healthcare program, is because having private/employee based insurance is another aspect of social stratification?
I think so.

No, it's because government programs are usually not as good as private.

How many people do you know have the option to choose between private and public schools--and pick the public?

(Hint: Usually, the word "magnet" is involved.)

139 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:16:23pm

re: #138 Mostly sane, most of the time.

No, it's because government programs are usually not as good as private.

How many people do you know have the option to choose between private and public schools--and pick the public?

(Hint: Usually, the word "magnet" is involved.)

I'm not saying it's the aliens but it's the ALIENS!

140 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:17:10pm

re: #139 Gus

I'm not saying it's the aliens but it's the ALIENS!

You've lost me, which isn't hard, because I spent most of the day picking huckleberries, and I'm exhausted.

141 OhNoBenghazi!  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:17:38pm

re: #138 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Quite a few. We have a competitive public school system.
I chose public for my kids, because I went to private.

142 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:18:33pm

re: #140 Mostly sane, most of the time.

You've lost me, which isn't hard, because I spent most of the day picking huckleberries, and I'm exhausted.

Magnets, aliens...

143 Mich-again  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:19:09pm

re: #130 freetoken

That's why so many Americans despise mass transportation - it means the easy (and relatively safe, compared say to wearing jewelry) way to show off how much better one is to others is taken off the table.

I would drop everything here and move to Manhattan if I could pull it off..

144 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:21:30pm

re: #142 Gus

Magnets, aliens...

Oh, yeah, I meant magnet schools. My cousin just got her daughter into one.

145 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:22:42pm

re: #141 OhNoZombies!

Quite a few. We have a competitive public school system.
I chose public for my kids, because I went to private.

The public high school of Westview here in Oregon is starting the year with 17 fewer teachers, and no, they don't have fewer students.

I wouldn't be happy if I were a Westview parent.

146 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:23:42pm
147 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:24:19pm

re: #144 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Oh, yeah, I meant magnet schools. My cousin just got her daughter into one.

Oops. I was thinking, "magnets! how do they fucking work?"

148 freetoken  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:24:59pm

re: #143 Mich-again

I would drop everything here and move to Manhattan if I could pull it off..

I can't stand NYC... oh, it's fine to visit for a day, but then I want to escape (which is difficult when I visit my sister who lives there...)

One thing to note about NYC transit is that is was started a long time ago.

Back when mass transportation mattered in whether a city was going to be important or not.

I prefer the Japanese cities for living - the transportation is world class, affordable, everywhere. And unlike Manhattan, Japanese cities are mostly built of low height buildings, which means you can see the sun and sky.

149 Mich-again  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:26:14pm

re: #138 Mostly sane, most of the time.

How many people do you know have the option to choose between private and public schools--and pick the public?

Me and my wife did for our 3 children.

The first two have already graduated from public high school and are attending college with full ride scholarships for tuition. The oldest will graduate in Electrical Engineering in December. Our 3rd child is starting 10th grade and is on the same course. And get this.. There are about 50% African American students at their school. Crimeny! I know.

I went to Catholic Schools for 12 years. My impression is that the primary difference between public and private schools is that private school kids have access to better drugs.

150 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:26:43pm

re: #147 Gus

Oops. I was thinking, "magnets! how do they fucking work?"

I was insufficiently clear. At the moment, if I close my eyes, I see huckleberries.

151 OhNoBenghazi!  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:26:47pm

They're updating all of the schools with wireless etc, and as the kids get older, they have a choice of a public school for the performing arts, or one that focuses on math and science. In the last 2 years of high school, if they are eligible, the kids can attend the local university for credit.

152 freetoken  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:27:17pm

re: #135 OhNoZombies!

Do you think that part of the out-cry against the ACA or even a universal healthcare program, is because having private/employee based insurance is another aspect of social stratification?

Maybe. But pretty much anything this administration does is cause for "outcry".

153 freetoken  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:29:47pm

re: #137 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Um, no, I don't like mass transportation because it takes so much longer than just driving--....

Which is true in most of the American metropolitan areas. It certainly is true here in San Diego.

Yet, it doesn't have to be true. American cities could have been planned and built with much better mass transit, but the rise of the petroleum industry and automobile industry nixed that.

154 RadicalModerate  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:30:12pm

Here we go again. Another racist with death fantasies regarding the President.

'Pray for Obama' sign stirs controversy over Biblical verse

VICTORIA, Tx. -- The Secret Service is looking into a sign posted in Victoria, Texas.

The sign says "Pray for Obama", but it's the scripture quoted below those words that is raising eyebrows: Psalms 109:8.

Psalms 109:8 reads, "Let his days be few, and let another take his office."

Milton Neitsch Jr., who has lived in Victoria since 1961, says he didn't intend for people to pick up on the hateful wishes of death and pain surrounding the tiny verse.
[...]
Neitsch says he is also getting plenty of support. He said he might replace the sign with something like, "Vote for the American", a sign that would no doubt stir emotion, while leaving the word of God to the experts.

A side note for those individuals who are defending the Bill Murphy retweeting:

The "race war" concept is rooted in the violent wing of the white supremacist community, specifically cited by Aryan Nations and is the subject matter of "The Turner Diaries". These individuals knew EXACTLY which dogwhistle they were blowing.

155 OhNoBenghazi!  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:31:09pm

re: #149 Mich-again

And can get away with having the worst attitudes imaginable.
In retrospect, I really should slap myself in the mouth for some of the stuff I would say, but I can't advocate for violence against myself.

156 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:33:42pm

I just checked. The local big Catholic high school has 6 National Merit scholars out of a student body of 1,285.

Our high school has more kids than that, and no NM scholars.

My high school, when I was a kid, had more students than that, and only one.

As I sat and watched my daughter's schedule get fixed, every single class she had was "overloaded." She says she's only ever been in one that wasn't. Math classes with over forty kids.

Oregon has a funding problem.

157 freetoken  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:38:50pm

re: #156 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Oregon has a funding problem.

Yes.

The long term average of American population growth is about 1%/yr. This means, among many other things, that government services have to continually grow.

This is yet another thing about which the wingnuts are in denial.

158 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:44:00pm

re: #156 Mostly sane, most of the time.

I just checked. The local big Catholic high school has 6 National Merit scholars out of a student body of 1,285.

Our high school has more kids than that, and no NM scholars.

My high school, when I was a kid, had more students than that, and only one.

As I sat and watched my daughter's schedule get fixed, every single class she had was "overloaded." She says she's only ever been in one that wasn't. Math classes with over forty kids.

Oregon has a funding problem.

That didn't seem quite right, so I just fact-checked myself. Jesuit's webpage said it had six Scholars, but in more checking they were finalists. Jesuit needs to fix their webpage.

I literally cannot find this information for our high school, but I do know that I have not seen a NM scholar for a few years now. I've been looking.

159 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:44:23pm

Meh. I've grown so tired I'm making obvious mistakes. Going to bed now.

160 Mich-again  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:48:23pm

re: #156 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Oregon has a funding problem.

And while everyone seems to assume that is because the teachers make too much money, consider this..

I don't know about Oregon schools but around here it is not uncommon that the non certified school district employees (bus drivers, secretaries, lunch ladies, janitors,..) belong to AFSME and have just as much or even more power than the teachers have through their NEA or AFT union and the same or better health care benefits. Chances are if local elections determine the school board that negotiates the contracts, then the non certified employees union will have more influence over who gets voted in than will the teachers.

No kidding here. My wife's public school district in Taylor Michigan is in a such a serious budget crunch this year that they are considering not paying their dozens of bus drivers year round. That is right, up until now the bus drivers have all been paid 40 hours per week, all year long even though there is school only 182 days per year and the drivers don't have to do anything when they aren't driving buses. Paid summers off for the whole crew.

And in the midst of this, the GOP governor and his Tea Party legislature are attacking the teacher's unions for pay, benefits, retirement, work rules, seniority rights, etc... all the while the AFSME crew is out of the crosshairs from the State intervention to help schools.

161 Kung Fughazi  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:50:34pm

re: #154 RadicalModerate

Here we go again. Another racist with death fantasies regarding the President.

'Pray for Obama' sign stirs controversy over Biblical verse

A side note for those individuals who are defending the Bill Murphy retweeting:

The "race war" concept is rooted in the violent wing of the white supremacist community, specifically cited by Aryan Nations and is the subject matter of "The Turner Diaries". These individuals knew EXACTLY which dogwhistle they were blowing.

Swear to fucking God; between this and claiming birtherism isn't driven by racism, I'm really starting to wonder what it takes any more for people to recognize bigotry.

162 Mich-again  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:53:05pm

I think the GOP obsession with dismantling public schools is just another sign of their overall war on women.

163 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:55:12pm

re: #2 Stanley Sea

Really ugly.

I get the impression that Romney has no freaking idea who is running his campaign. His goal is to win, whatever it takes.

And this relates directly to his business "acumen"

I can't imagine a successful businessman hiring people this haphazardly.

164 OhNoBenghazi!  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:57:15pm

re: #162 Mich-again

Some of them weren't too keen on de-segregation either.

165 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:57:35pm

Dredged from the Fever Swamp:

Need Help With My Bumper Sticker.

I was thinking for my new bumper sticker: 'THIS TIME VOTE FOR A REAL AMERICAN' or: 'REAL HOPE, REAL CHANGE: ROMNEY/RYAN' or: 'LET'S PUT REAL MEN IN THE OFFICE: ROMNEY/RYAN'

THIS TIME VOTE FOR A REAL WHITE GUY
REAL GREED, REAL KOOK: ROMNEY/RYAN
LET'S PUT REAL CAVEMEN IN THE OFFICE: ROMNEY/RYAN

166 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:58:02pm

re: #30 Dark_Falcon

Trying to defend against a politically convenient charge of racism is very difficult if one is a Republican. Even if you can prove you weren't attacking people based on race, Democrats will still call something you said a "code word", because they feel it brings them political advantage.

Much better to counterattack, attacking the accuser's motives. The counter attack fires up your core supporters and can give you the chance to put some critical focus on the other side instead of on you.

Have you lost your mind? How is this opportunism? The social media director for Romney's campaign is openly endorsing white supremecism. How the fuck is that anything other than disgusting to you?

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

That's not the point. The point is that Chicago's crime problem is severely disproportionally the fault of young black males and that the media does not not say this openly, but instead allows for the idea that racism is still to blame for these problems. But it is not racism, but family breakdown and nihilism that are to blame, along with poor policing. Any aid needs to put focus on cultural change to break the cycle of fatherlessness and illegitimacy that leads to so much of Chicago's crime. Boys need to be raised better, and that requires better male role models.

You do realize that you just directly said the media is insufficiently racist, don't you? The media needs to really get out front and make sure everybody associates violent behavior with race? Really? Do you realize you just implied that there MUST be some kind of link, else why insist the media report it?

Dude, you are a raging racist. Jut say it directly, because you have already said it. Repeatedly.

167 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 11:01:54pm

re: #42 moderatelyradicalliberal

This race war stuff is just an expressed desire for genocide. Black people make up 12% of the entire population in the USA, how in the world could we win this impending race war?

You're all hopped up on the reefer and the crack. We wouldn't stand a chance.

///God almighty

168 OhNoBenghazi!  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 11:06:52pm

re: #165 Shiplord Kirel

Dredged from the Fever Swamp:

Need Help With My Bumper Sticker.

THIS TIME VOTE FOR A REAL WHITE GUY
REAL GREED, REAL KOOK: ROMNEY/RYAN
LET'S PUT REAL CAVEMEN IN THE OFFICE: ROMNEY/RYAN

THIS TIME VOTE FOR A REALLY WHITE GUY
REAL GREED, REAL SECRETIVE: ROMNEY/RYAN
LET'S PUT REAL LIARS IN THE OFFICE: ROMNEY/RYAN

169 OhNoBenghazi!  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 11:13:17pm

2 in the a.m., no wonder I'm tired and punchy.
night all.

170 Kragarghazi  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 11:17:47pm

re: #165 Shiplord Kirel

Dredged from the Fever Swamp:

Need Help With My Bumper Sticker.

THIS TIME VOTE FOR A REAL WHITE GUY
REAL GREED, REAL KOOK: ROMNEY/RYAN
LET'S PUT REAL CAVEMEN IN THE OFFICE: ROMNEY/RYAN

Romney/Ryan: Because fuck you

171 darthstar  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 11:25:16pm

Hey everyone...just got home from a play - Time Stands Still - about a photo-journalist and her partner - she gets blown up by an IED and the play is set in her apartment in New York after she gets home and follows her recovery. Pretty interesting play, I will say...nice character development, and the adjustment to non-war life can be as hard on those who observe war as it is on those who fight it. And, of course, it's always nice to see live performances...

172 darthstar  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 11:40:21pm

I'm sure this is great news for John McCain...

173 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 11:52:05pm

re: #168 OhNoZombies!

THIS TIME VOTE FOR A REALLY WHITE GUY
REAL GREED, REAL SECRETIVE: ROMNEY/RYAN
LET'S PUT REAL LIARS IN THE OFFICE: ROMNEY/RYAN

They just need to resurrect this one:

‘Don’t Re-Nig in 2012′: Maker of Racist Anti-Obama Sticker Shuts Down Site

174 engineer cat  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 12:06:19am

re-nig

i keep on waiting for that "at long last, have you left no sense of decency" moment

175 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 12:07:36am

re: #174 engineer cat

re-nig

i keep on waiting for that "at long last, have you left no sense of decency" moment

The last 4 years have been a series of such moments. It's just that the answer is always "no".

176 freetoken  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 12:19:21am

I've been gravitating to Wagner's music lately - maybe because I appreciate his idea of music - Go Big or Go Home:


MP3 Audio
177 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 12:33:03am

re: #176 freetoken

I've been gravitating to Wagner's music lately - maybe because I appreciate his idea of music - Go Big or Go Home:

[Embedded content]

I must say I've never warmed up to Wagner. And it's not just a matter of size, since I do enjoy Bruckner (in moderation) and Mahler.

178 freetoken  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 12:42:38am

re: #177 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

It's taken me a long time to start to like some of Wagner's music, though still only some of it.

Mahler - still can't grok it - seems alien to my sensibilities.

179 Kragarghazi  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 12:50:30am

re: #178 freetoken

It's taken me a long time to start to like some of Wagner's music, though still only some of it.

Mahler - still can't grok it - seems alien to my sensibilities.

Classical Metal

Youtube Video
180 simoom  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 12:52:39am

If anyone's been following the RW blogosphere over the last 24hrs or so, they're making a big deal out of a sand sculpture of the President near the 2012 DNC in NC. They're basically trying to recreate their "Greek columns" BS from the '08 convention (in reality, that stage was pure americana, made to look like the a combination of the White House, Rose Garden-side and the Lincoln Memorial). The premise for both outrages is that President Obama is creating a memorials to himself, out-sized to his proper stature, to stoke his ego or something.

It was idiotic enough when just the RW blogs & the Washinton Times were pushing it, but now it's becoming official GOP messaging. Here's the deputy communications director of the RNC:


Worse, idiots in the media are retweeting this crap -- Oliver Knox, White House Correspondent:

OK, so first of all it's a sand sculpture of the President, that looks nothing like Mount Rushmore. He's standing with his arms folded in front of the Presidential Seal. He's wearing a button that says: "Vote Myrtle Beach" and he's beside a sign that says: "Visit Myrtle Beach" and he's near another sign that says "Vote travel." Here's a photo:
Image: 0902-visitmyrtlebeach_mcbr.jpg

Kind of odd things for the DNC to put on art they've paid for, right? That's because it wasn't the DNC that commissioned it, it was actually commissioned by VisitMyrtleBeach.com of The Myrtle Beach Area Convention and Visitors Bureau:

[Link: www.thedickinsonpress.com...]

In this photograph taken by AP Images for VisitMyrtleBeach.com, onlookers check out a 15.5 ton sand sculpture of President Barack Obama created by VisitMyrtleBeach.com Saturday in Charlotte, N.C. ahead of the Democratic National Convention. The sculpture, made from South Carolina sand, took five artists three days to complete.

If you want to see a sand sculpture that actually slightly resembles mount Rushmore check out what the same team created when the GOP circus was in SC, for the debate, earlier in the year:
Image: GOP-DEBATE-2.jpg

(h/t TheImpolitic)

181 ozbloke  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 12:56:25am

re: #180 simoom

If anyone's been following the RW blogosphere over the last 24hrs or so, they're making a big deal out of a sand sculpture of the President near the 2012 DNC in NC. They're basically trying to recreate their "Greek columns" BS from the '08 convention (in reality, that stage was pure americana, made to look like the a combination of the White House, Rose Garden-side and the Lincoln Memorial). The premise for both outrages is that President Obama is creating a memorials to himself, out-sized to his proper stature, to stoke his ego or something.

It was idiotic enough when just the RW blogs & the Washinton Times were pushing it, but now it's becoming official GOP messaging. Here's the deputy communications director of the RNC:

[Embedded content]

OK, so first of all it's a sand sculpture of the President, that looks nothing like Mount Rushmore. He's standing with his arms folded in front of the Presidential Seal. He's wearing a button that says: "Vote Myrtle Beach" and he's beside a sign that says: "Visit Myrtle Beach" and he's near another sign that says "Vote travel." Here's a photo:
Image: 0902-visitmyrtlebeach_mcbr.jpg

Kind of odd things for the DNC to put on art they've paid for, right? That's because it wasn't the DNC that commissioned it, it was actually commissioned by VisitMyrtleBeach.com of The Myrtle Beach Area Convention and Visitors Bureau:

[Link: www.thedickinsonpress.com...]

If you want to see a sand sculpture that actually slightly resembles mount Rushmore check out what the same team created when the GOP circus was in SC, for the debate, earlier in the year:
Image: GOP-DEBATE-2.jpg

(h/t TheImpolitic)

Funny post, nice twist at the end.

182 Kragarghazi  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 12:58:23am

The following was a mainstay at Dio concerts for decades, heard his band play it alive about 6 years ago.

Drum-solo & 1812 Overture live in Japan 1976

Youtube Video
183 Pip's Squeak  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 1:08:20am

re: #178 freetoken

It's taken me a long time to start to like some of Wagner's music, though still only some of it.

Mahler - still can't grok it - seems alien to my sensibilities.

Mahler is great. As are the much less played symphonies of Enescu and Roussel.

184 simoom  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 1:11:03am

re: #180 simoom

That's because it wasn't the DNC that commissioned it, it was actually commissioned by VisitMyrtleBeach.com of The Myrtle Beach Area Convention and Visitors Bureau

Just as a quick follow-up, adding an extra bit of detail, these entities are apparently part of The Myrtle Beach Area Chamber of Commerce, a state over in South Carolina:

[Link: www.carolinalive.com...]

The Myrtle Beach Area Chamber of Commerce arranged for artists to create a sand sculpture featuring President Barack Obama. The 15.5 ton sculpture is made from South Carolina sand and located just outside the EpiCentre in downtown Charlotte.

185 freetoken  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 1:16:24am

re: #180 simoom

If anyone's been following the RW blogosphere over the last 24hrs or so, they're making a big deal out of a sand sculpture of the President near the 2012 DNC in NC. ....

Yeah, we noticed. As an outrage, it ranks slightly below the Christmas tree ornaments and above the painting.

186 engineer cat  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 1:17:01am

if you're gonna go big on the late night romantic composers, my favorite is strauss - much more interesting things happen in his zarathustra after the 2001 part, and he wrote a wonderful piece late in his life called 'metamorphosen'. but for wagner, a good performance of liebestod is just killer - can't be beat

187 Kragarghazi  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 1:20:32am

And one of the greatest epic rock songs ever made

Iron Maiden - The Rime of the Ancient Mariner Full Length

Youtube Video
188 simoom  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 1:23:09am

re: #185 freetoken

Yeah, we noticed. As an outrage, it ranks slightly below the Christmas tree ornaments and above the painting.

Drudge has been pushing it too, so this should make for a good experiment as to which members of the media are absolutely hopeless at their jobs.

189 simoom  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 1:27:23am

re: #185 freetoken

Yeah, we noticed. As an outrage, it ranks slightly below the Christmas tree ornaments and above the painting.

Oh, I see what you mean now. I just did a "Mount Rushmore" search and it came up in the open thread from Friday night. Oops. :P

190 researchok  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 1:34:56am

Morning, all

191 freetoken  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 1:42:03am

re: #189 simoom

No Oops... you've provided a valuable update.

192 freetoken  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 1:43:09am

More my speed - Vaughn Williams (who wrote quite a lot of music, little of which is commonly heard):

MP3 Audio
193 researchok  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 1:45:03am

re: #179 Kragar

OK, I'm up.

194 Kragarghazi  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 1:52:20am

re: #193 researchok

OK, I'm up.

Soundgarden - Drawing Flies

Youtube Video

Sitting here like uninvited company
Wallowing in my own obscenities
I share a cigarette with negativity
Sitting here like wet ashes with X's in my eyes
And drawing flies

OK, now you're awake

195 researchok  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 1:55:00am

re: #192 freetoken

Favorited.

Mesmerizing, kind of

TY

196 researchok  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 1:58:33am

re: #194 Kragar

Like being on speed.

Only without the speed.

197 Kragarghazi  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 2:00:09am

re: #196 researchok

Like being on speed.

Only without the speed.

Good rock will do that for you.

198 William of Orange  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 2:00:51am

Tell me he didn't say that!

Is it any surprise that there are calls to end the tax-exempt status of groups like Crossroads USA?

199 researchok  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 2:01:27am

re: #197 Kragar

I'm more of a weed kind of guy.

200 Kragarghazi  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 2:03:05am

re: #199 researchok

I'm more of a weed kind of guy.

Youtube Video
201 Kragarghazi  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 2:05:23am

I am liking Sublime's new stuff. Nice to see them back on their feet.

Youtube Video
202 researchok  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 2:07:13am

re: #200 Kragar

Nice!

203 simoom  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 3:17:31am

Looks like Bill Murphy used to have some sort of amateur digital publication called "The Bill-Murphy.com Daily". Maybe it was some sort of compilation of RW blog posts he appreciated? Looks like there were a good 100 or so of them but he's since deleted every one. He tweeted out each one, here's a big list of them through Topsy:
[Link: topsy.com...]

For example:

He also likes retweeting brooks bayne mocking random black people. Examples:
http://twitter.com/brooksbayne/status/186649426754945024
http://twitter.com/brooksbayne/status/198286832079867904

Other tweets I noticed while briefly poking around:

204 Randall Gross  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 3:33:13am

This campaign from the paleo-nationalist right wingers to show how bad "black on white" crime is doesn't differ much from what the white nationalists are doing in Europe.

Indeed, the only change you would need to make is to replace "Black" with "Muslim" in the articles people like Gates of Vienna, Brussells journal, Fjordman and Lionheart publish, the same articles that Breivik pointed out to justify his terrorism. They use the same demographic factor that affects areas of Chicago and a few other places in the US.

Where poor minorities are made outcasts by a xenophobic society there usually is higher crime. This is true in the US, it's true in the Subcontinent of Asia, it's true in Europe, and it's true in the middle East.

So every instance of x vs y crime is carefully collected, curated, and amplified over and over again by the tribal xenophobes, even though in these "high crime minority" areas 70-90 percent of the crime is x vs x. It helps make people paranoid, fearful, defensive, and ultimately hateful, and that's the real goal.

205 Randall Gross  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 3:40:14am

These reports also tend to ignore the fact that even in Chicago crime is on a downward trend
[Link: www.cityrating.com...]

206 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 3:55:08am

re: #205 Randall Gross

That's the thing that gets me. We've done it, we've reduced crime-- somehow. It's worth investigating how and what is causing that. But the media and the GOP continue to push the lie that things are getting worse, that crime is on the rise, that racial unrest is causing it.

207 freetoken  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 3:55:21am

re: #203 simoom

It seems that Bill Murphy has been playing clean up around the net, making sure his tracks are covered.

208 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 4:36:07am

Morning Honcos.

209 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 4:52:04am

Suspect in child-sex case killed by deputies in Treasure Island motel
On Monday night, an 11-year-old girl from Safety Harbor told her mother she felt dizzy. Her stomach hurt. She had a headache.

The mother and her live-in boyfriend, Gregory J. Johns, took the girl to the hospital. The pair waited in a lobby as a doctor examined her. After a few minutes, the doctor came back with news: The girl was pregnant.
[Link: www.tampabay.com...]
I'm glad he's dead. Bastard.

210 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 5:16:59am

Joyce Coffey Arrested 4 Times In 26 Hours For Playing AC/DC Too Loud
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]
Just funny.

211 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 5:24:07am

re: #210 Cannadian Club Akbar

Joyce Coffey Arrested 4 Times In 26 Hours For Playing AC/DC Too Loud
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]
Just funny.

Should I file this under "Lousy Music" or "Slow Learners"?

'Morning, all.

212 A Mom Anon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 5:31:33am

I may be hard to follow here,but bear with me.
In all these discussions of race and poverty(and by extension,things like absentee fathers)I find it interesting that the many,many enclaves of white poor people get left out of the discussion. All of those things said about black males could be applied to white males in these areas too. Ever heard of Appalachia? That's a HUGE swath of the country where there's no hope,no sense of community investment,where crime and drug abuse run unchecked,where lots of kids end up in the system,where the schools are underfunded and falling apart,and where you won't see a response from the elected officials who represent those areas. Crime in these areas isn't much different than in DF's example of Chicago,and yet this shit never makes the news,hmm. Wonder why that is?

I am,as I type this,working to help get my daughter and her 3 kids out of the county that is considered the farthest western county in Appalachia.(Long story as to why she's there,her dad's family played the guilt card on her til she ran away to there as a teenager) My family is from that general area,I saw this rural poverty through alot of my childhood. Her boyfriend is in FL,working at a crap job,crashing on a couch,trying to save up money to get her and the kids out of there. The last hope at a decent job there went away when the auto industry shut down their last factories in the 80's and moved them overseas. There's nothing there except a WalMart, a McDonalds and a couple of restaurants. If you have no car or an old one that barely runs,you aren't getting out of there if you have a family. Unless the family splits up and a parent goes off to find work. That cycle of poverty destroys people's sense of community and robs even little kids of hope.

This isn't a racial problem,it's a class problem. The race thing keeps getting thrown out there to keep people from uniting and fighting the disparity in the system. There's more poor people than rich,more poor than those that run the system. THAT'S a huge reason that these fires get stoked,along with the ignorance and hate at the base of racism. Of course this is just my life experience and opinion,I could be wrong.

213 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 5:32:15am

re: #207 freetoken

It seems that Bill Murphy has been playing clean up around the net, making sure his tracks are covered.

So he's not only a racist dimwit, but completely ignorant about how his area of expertise works. Is this the quality of personnel Romney hired at Bain?

214 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 5:33:34am

re: #212 A Mom Anon

You write the things I'd write if I weren't a lazy smartass.

215 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 5:44:08am

re: #212 A Mom Anon

This isn't a racial problem,it's a class problem. The race thing keeps getting thrown out there to keep people from uniting and fighting the disparity in the system. There's more poor people than rich,more poor than those that run the system. THAT'S a huge reason that these fires get stoked,along with the ignorance and hate at the base of racism. Of course this is just my life experience and opinion,I could be wrong.

This.

But Americans as a whole still cling bitterly, if you'll pardon the expression, to the fantasy that we're a classless society and that serious social mobility exists. We've never been classless and the mobility ended with the beginning of the destruction of the middle class and unions, oh right around 1980... Wonder how that happened?

They love stoking the race issue because it keeps the poor fighting among themselves. United and organized? That is what the 1% of the 1% fear the most.

As Franklin put it, we must all hang together or most assuredly we shall all hang separately.

216 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 5:45:11am

I had to throw out 4 pieces of chicken because I didn't get to them in time. I was gonna boil them last night just to cook them off. I hate wasting food. And now I have to buy more because I want chicken. Sheesh.

217 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 5:47:15am

re: #216 Cannadian Club Akbar

I had to throw out 4 pieces of chicken because I didn't get to them in time. I was gonna boil them last night just to cook them off. I hate wasting food. And now I have to buy more because I want chicken. Sheesh.

Reading Mom Anon's comment above, that chicken mistake is an irritant in some houses, a near-tragedy in others. Been there.

218 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 5:55:15am

re: #217 Decatur Deb

Reading Mom Anon's comment above, that chicken mistake is an irritant in some houses, a near-tragedy in others. Been there.

The one thing that has saved my ass over the years is the fact that I have a great culinary background. I generally don't waste anything. When I was a kitchen manager of a 300 seat steakhouse in Orlando I kept a 10 gallon pot of water on all day, every day. Everything, with the exception of lettuce leafs, went in the pot. I'd let that bad boy go for about a week. Hell, even when I boil chicken I save the broth to make rice with.

219 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 5:57:09am

re: #107 Obdicut

The stop and frisk program in New York is aimed at black people and Hispanics. Black people alone are 80% of the stop and frisks. Stop and frisk inevitably means that huge numbers of completely innocent young black men are expected to endure this humiliation and indignity cheerfully, when they know that they are being stopped because of the color of their skin and where they live.

It's short-sighted and appallingly dumb.

I was going to reply with this, but was unable to do so due to a narcoleptic episode that made me need to get to bed. So I'll post it now:

Stop the Killing, Keep “Stop-and-Frisk”

It’s encouraging that New York State Assemblyman Eric Stevenson is rethinking his position on New York’s proactive policing. The impetus for his change of heart? The homicide of a four-year-old boy during a shoot-out at a barbecue and basketball game at the Forest Houses in the Bronx on Sunday night. “There is a 4-year-old dead. Now we should really consider not stopping stop-and-frisk,” Stevenson told the New York Post. “I’m going to have to start supporting stop-and-frisk. We need to give the police leverage to use stop-and-frisk. They should be allowed to do it.”

Better late than never, but wasn’t the need for proactive stops obvious long before this latest travesty? Armed thugs continue to hold neighborhoods hostage and to take down innocent victims as well as rival gangbangers: most recently, 77 people shot citywide the week of July 4; a 14-year-old boy shot in the head on June 28 in Bushwick, Brooklyn; ten people shot in drive-bys in Queens, the Bronx, and Brooklyn the night before Al Sharpton’s anti-stop-and-frisk march on June 17; a 17-year-old football star shot in the spine while trying to protect a 16-year-old from two teen robbers on a playground in Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn, on June 5; and a 25-year-old member of the Harlem Youth Marines (an anti-gang group) killed in a shooting on a Harlem basketball court on the afternoon of June 3.

220 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:00:26am

So, in other words, it's a crime to be alive while black until proven innocent? Or, for that matter until dead?

221 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:01:31am

re: #219 Dark_Falcon

Do you agree with the article you posted? It's just a knee-jerk response, that doesn't address the negatives of stop and frisk at all.

222 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:03:10am

re: #218 Cannadian Club Akbar

The one thing that has saved my ass over the years is the fact that I have a great culinary background. I generally don't waste anything. When I was a kitchen manager of a 300 seat steakhouse in Orlando I kept a 10 gallon pot of water on all day, every day. Everything, with the exception of lettuce leafs, went in the pot. I'd let that bad boy go for about a week. Hell, even when I boil chicken I save the broth to make rice with.

There's been a lot of effort to merge that kind of skill and attitude to poverty food programs. So far the nutrition education effort fails--soft drinks and tv dinners suck away a lot of the cash that is available. It was a shock to see how many cubic feet of our food bank shelves were loaded with sugars. That's how AL and our nearby states can be the poorest and most overweight/diabetes ridden.

223 A Mom Anon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:05:48am

re: #215 William Barnett-Lewis

Here's another tidbit about the 1980's.
I went to an amazing public high school in the suburbs of Columbus,Ohio. We had literally everything you could want in a high school. It was set up as a mini college. You had to choose a major and a minor,and there were requirements for graduation that included FOUR credits in History and Government,along with a Civics class. You had history class choices,American history was divided into 5 classes according to time period(Manifest Destiny,America Pre- first contact,America during WWII,etc,etc),and we had both an extensive automobile shop along with a shop for learning how to make and fix things. We also had our own driving school(Driver's ed is a long gone thing in most high schools now).

I have younger siblings,by the time my brother started high school in the early 80's ALL of that stuff was gone. In less than 5 yrs the new school board gutted the system and everything changed. My dad's job as a steel worker went away,union busting devastated the region and salaries began to drop. After high school,my new factory job went away and I moved south,following my parents move. There were jobs here because of the big construction boom,but no union jobs or job protection(aka "right to work"). I ended up working 3 jobs at one point,18 hours a freaking day so I could afford a decent car and a place to live. So yeah,something happened in the late 70s/early 80s,hmmm.

224 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:08:31am

re: #221 Obdicut

Do you agree with the article you posted? It's just a knee-jerk response, that doesn't address the negatives of stop and frisk at all.

Yeah, I do. All other things aside, stop and frisk is keeping people from getting killed. The young man who feels robbed of his dignity should be asked pointedly how much dignity he'd find in the grave, since it is policies like stop and frisk that make it harder for criminals to shoot at him.

Instead of hounding the police, the public should band together and ensure that gang crimes and gang organizations are promptly reported. The NYPD has made clear it takes anti-gang action seriously since the 1990's,so the public can know they will not be brushed off like they were back in the Bad Old Days. Remove the gangs, you;ll cut back on a great deal of shootings, and when those end there will be no more need for stop and frisk.

225 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:08:55am

re: #222 Decatur Deb

There's been a lot of effort to merge that kind of skill and attitude to poverty food programs. So far the nutrition education effort fails--soft drinks and tv dinners suck away a lot of the cash that is available. It was a shock to see how muck of our food bank shelves were loaded with sugars. That's how AL and our nearby states can be the poorest and most overweight/diabetes ridden.

Add to that the fact that TV dinners are generally really high in sodium. Don't get me wrong, I love a good frozen fried chicken dinner. But you can't eat them every day. Michele Obama just put out "shopping 101" for people to read. I can make it easier: Only shop the outer perimeter of the super market. Dairy, meats, fruits and veggies. Going down the isles results in sugar, salt and processed foods. Not good. (having said that, I don't follow my rule)

226 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:09:47am

re: #222 Decatur Deb

There's been a lot of effort to merge that kind of skill and attitude to poverty food programs. So far the nutrition education effort fails--soft drinks and tv dinners suck away a lot of the cash that is available. It was a shock to see how muck of our food bank shelves were loaded with sugars. That's how AL and our nearby states can be the poorest and most overweight/diabetes ridden.

I've honestly come to the conclusion that HFCS needs to be banned from use in foods for human consumption. It's used in many things that have no need of sweetening and it's introduction coincides with the obesity explosion.

227 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:11:13am

re: #223 A Mom Anon

I'm going they away from this one so I can focus on another topic. I'm replying to say that I've got different feelings, but can't address two issues at once.

228 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:12:35am

re: #224 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, I do.

Can you address the negatives-- that innocent young black men are routinely made to feel ostracized and as though the police are the enemy, leading them to trust the police and justice system less?

All other things aside, stop and frisk is keeping people from getting killed.

This is a fatuous point. Locking people inside their homes every day would keep people from getting killed too. So would a curfew. That something prevents people from getting killed is not a defense on its own.

The young man who feels robbed of his dignity should be asked pointedly how much dignity he'd find in the grave, since it is policies like stop and frisk that make it harder for criminals to shoot at him.

Do they? Can you demonstrate that stop and frisk has actually been effective?

Instead of hounding the police, the public should band together and ensure that gang crimes and gang organizations are promptly reported.

Why would they do that, when the cops routinely harass them despite being innocent? Why would they view the cops as a positive thing, when they routinely are lumped in with the gangs and humiliated on the street?

The NYPD has made clear it takes anti-gang action seriously since the 1990's,so the public can know they will not be brushed off like they were back in the Bad Old Days. Remove the gangs, you;ll cut back on a great deal of shootings, and when those end there will be no more need for stop and frisk.

"remove the gangs". Oh. That's simple. For fuck's sake, Dark, are you even putting any thought into this?

229 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:15:25am

re: #225 Cannadian Club Akbar

Add to that the fact that TV dinners are generally really high in sodium. Don't get me wrong, I love a good frozen fried chicken dinner. But you can't eat them every day. Michele Obama just put out "shopping 101" for people to read. I can make it easier: Only shop the outer perimeter of the super market. Dairy, meats, fruits and veggies. Going down the isles results in sugar, salt and processed foods. Not good. (having said that, I don't follow my rule)

Alas, I know exactly what you mean. And yet the saddest thing is when I'm checking out I still get complemented for buying such a healthy selection. It's scary that it's so obvious who actually cooks and who just pops in a tv dinner or frozen 'za. (reminds me, I need to put homemade pizza fixings on the grocery list. Low on mozzy & flour.).

That said, I do have a weak spot for Banquet's "country style" frozen chicken. I try to only get it every 6 months or so.

230 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:15:44am

re: #226 William Barnett-Lewis

I've honestly come to the conclusion that HFCS needs to be banned from use in foods for human consumption. It's used in many things that have no need of sweetening and it's introduction coincides with the obesity explosion.

The problem is the issue of the sugar producers, and here one must allow the Newt Gingrich hit the nail right on the head when he pointed out that "the sugar industry has proven incredibly capable of defending itself." When even the Speaker of the House cannot undo the price supports for sugar, it makes HFCS almost impossible to be rid of.

231 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:16:23am

re: #225 Cannadian Club Akbar

Add to that the fact that TV dinners are generally really high in sodium. Don't get me wrong, I love a good frozen fried chicken dinner. But you can't eat them every day. Michele Obama just put out "shopping 101" for people to read. I can make it easier: Only shop the outer perimeter of the super market. Dairy, meats, fruits and veggies. Going down the isles results in sugar, salt and processed foods. Not good. (having said that, I don't follow my rule)

Just shouted out the highlight to my wife (nurse w/nutrition and heavy shopping experience). It's really insightful.
re: #226 William Barnett-Lewis

Our food bank got a donation from a major restaurant chain--a universal base for its soup/gravy/white sauce mix. It was three or four kinds of sugar, about 40% by weight. (Good on 'em for the donation, but man...)

232 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:17:07am

re: #230 Dark_Falcon

The problem is the issue of the sugar producers, and here one must allow the Newt Gingrich hit the nail right on the head when he pointed out that "the sugar industry has proven incredibly capable of defending itself." When even the Speaker of the House cannot undo the price supports for sugar, it makes HFCS almost impossible to be rid of.

FDA could in one meeting. I know, they lack the intestinal fortitude, but they could.

233 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:18:26am

re: #228 Obdicut

Can you address the negatives-- that innocent young black men are routinely made to feel ostracized and as though the police are the enemy, leading them to trust the police and justice system less?

...snip
"remove the gangs". Oh. That's simple. For fuck's sake, Dark, are you even putting any thought into this?

Eliminate the drug laws. It gets a lot simpler.

234 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:19:22am

re: #231 Decatur Deb

Just shouted out the highlight to my wife (nurse w/nutrition and heavy shopping experience). It's really insightful.
re: #226 William Barnett-Lewis

Our food bank got a donation from a major restaurant chain--a universal base for its soup/gravy/white sauce mix. It was three or four kinds of sugar, about 40% by weight. (Good on 'em for the donation, but man...)

I'm actually (hopefully) going back to skool (depends on student loans) to become a Registered Dietician. I actually worked hand in hand with one from the age of 16 until I was 20.

235 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:20:00am

re: #233 Decatur Deb

Eliminate the drug laws. It gets a lot simpler.

Decriminalize the 'soft' drugs, and decriminalize possession and use of hard drugs, treat it as a medical problem. And make prison rehabilitative instead of punitive.

236 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:20:08am

re: #232 William Barnett-Lewis

FDA could in one meeting. I know, they lack the intestinal fortitude, but they could.

Big Sugar has really, really deep pockets.

237 A Mom Anon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:21:23am

re: #227 Dark_Falcon

Um,ok. But FYI,blacks and whites aren't poor for different reasons. It's funny how things change for a community when you give people something to fight for,rather than against. You might also consider that gangs only get a foothold when kids don't have a strong community to fall back on when families are torn up by unemployment and the resulting problems from that. Gangs are,in essence a substitute family and the leaders of those gangs KNOW this,it's a prime tool for luring kids in.

One giant problem we need to overcome in this country is the notion that every investment and return is fully monetary. When you fail to invest in things like infrastructure and actual people and their education,you end up with whole communities of people who fall through the cracks. Just because the investment doesn't go "KA-CHING!!!" in a couple of months,there's a mind set that money is just being wasted. Nope,Nope,NOOOOO! It's short sighted and stupid thinking that keeps this cycle of poverty and crime going.

238 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:22:39am

re: #234 Cannadian Club Akbar

I'm actually (hopefully) going back to skool (depends on student loans) to become a Registered Dietician. I actually worked hand in hand with one from the age of 16 until I was 20.

If you can make it work, you'll certainly be at the front end of a rising demand. Team up with someone who is really good about educating adults to do what they really need to do for themselves. That's a lot harder than it sounds.

239 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:26:36am

re: #235 Obdicut

Decriminalize the 'soft' drugs, and decriminalize possession and use of hard drugs, treat it as a medical problem. And make prison rehabilitative instead of punitive.

Decriminalize possession and use of everything. Distribute maintenance doses for free under medical control. Double the penalties for production, import, and trafficing. See how long the market lasts.

240 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:26:59am

re: #232 William Barnett-Lewis

FDA could in one meeting. I know, they lack the intestinal fortitude, but they could.

The problem is that if they do that, Coca-Cola would take it right in the gut; Pepsi would get hurt as well, but not as much due to their already having Pepsi Throwback available. Not only would soda producers have to stop production on each line and switch ingredients (they how to do this, but changing equipment takes time, though they'd stagger the switch over to keep things going), but the price of soda would greatly increase. The FDA can mandate the use of cane sugar, but it cannot remove the tariffs Congress has placed on its importation (only Congress can undo an Act of Congress, unless it is unconstitutional).

241 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:27:50am

re: #239 Decatur Deb

There are some drugs that are so harmful that I don't think physicians would consent to delivering even maintenance doses, like PCP. But aside from that, yes.

242 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:28:57am

re: #240 Dark_Falcon

The price of soda wouldn't have to greatly increase; they make a significant profit at the moment, and could absorb the cost of the change and just have a smaller profit margin.

If they did increase the price, people would buy less soda, meaning that their overall profit might shrink.

It is a fallacy to believe that every time a companies' costs rise that they increase product price. That is not how the market works.

243 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:30:16am

re: #239 Decatur Deb

re: #241 Obdicut

A guy I used to work with went to the methadone clinic every day. Cost him $80/week. I mentioned to him that that is pretty pricey. He said it is cheaper than $200/day.

244 A Mom Anon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:31:10am

re: #240 Dark_Falcon

But we do make cane sugar here(more American jobs if we use more of our own stuff). And the price of soda would not skyrocket,cane sugar is not that expensive. If it were,the price of Pepsi and Mountain Dew Throwback would be more than the regular and they aren't. Same goes for those baked goods marked as having no HFCS,they're the same price. As for retooling the factories,that is not a huge change,the companies don't have to come up with anything new,they used sugar before HFCS came into being.

245 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:32:41am

re: #241 Obdicut

There are some drugs that are so harmful that I don't think physicians would consent to delivering even maintenance doses, like PCP. But aside from that, yes.

A few drugs like that are like a plague that kills its host too quickly--quick burnout. My approach would kill a lot of people--every approach, notably the current, one kills more.

( In a nation of 300 million, setting a standard for the color of fire engines will kill a certain number of people.)

246 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:34:31am

re: #244 A Mom Anon

One problem with cane sugar farming is the pollution from the fertilizer. See the Everglades.

247 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:35:11am

re: #237 A Mom Anon

One giant problem we need to overcome in this country is the notion that every investment and return is fully monetary. When you fail to invest in things like infrastructure and actual people and their education,you end up with whole communities of people who fall through the cracks.

I've always argued that Socialism is not so much about the mechanics of property ownership and labor, important as those things are, but rather about including everyone _in_ society and investing in the future of the society rather than in the future of one specific business or another's short term profit margins.

Capitalism has always had a problem, socially, with diminishing returns as a capitalist entity gets bigger. And yet, scales of economy make it critical for it to get bigger. How to balance those issues while providing for every member of the society is a difficult challenge that isn't solved by sound bites. Some places come closer (Scandinavia, Germany, etc) than others but it isn't glamorous and it doesn't fit our mythology.

It's rather like the health care reform - everyone wants whats in it but have been told they have to fear the package. So too with Socialism. Everyone wants a society that cares for everyone and provides good meaningful employment for all but have been told that the mechanism is itself evil. Which leaves us at the hands of that tiny group, that 1% of the 1%, who gain the most from everyone else loosing.

248 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:38:26am

re: #246 Cannadian Club Akbar

One problem with cane sugar farming is the pollution from the fertilizer. See the Everglades.

Frankly sugar beets are a better source and, despite decades of C&H propaganda, sugar is sugar.

249 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:39:20am

re: #228 Obdicut

Do they? Can you demonstrate that stop and frisk has actually been effective?

I can offer this as a start. It deals with marijuana possession as well (Ms. MacDonald favors the reduction of penalty for the possession of small amounts of the stuff, as do I.)

Why would they do that, when the cops routinely harass them despite being innocent? Why would they view the cops as a positive thing, when they routinely are lumped in with the gangs and humiliated on the street?

Because its their best chance to end police practices they find intrusive while staying safe. The police have to keep a lid on crime, and if they can't get viable information to let them go after the gangs another way, they have to go with street tactics like stop and frisk.

Moreover, How can the police back off and expect cooperation? If they back off, then the gangs will become more active and further intimidate people from acting against them. It seems a Catch-22 to me.

250 AK-47%  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:39:50am

re: #247 William Barnett-Lewis

a) Not everything can be expressed in monetary terms

b) not all monetary advantages can be expressed in the bottom line of an annual balance sheet

c) the free market can be an effective mechanism for balancing supply and demand and directing flows of capital to where they will do the most benefit for everyone

d) the free market sucks when it comes to managing resources. and after a certain point, large amounts of capital (in the form of too-big-too-fail banks and financial institutions) become a form of national resource that must be managed for the benefit of all

251 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:39:54am

re: #243 Cannadian Club Akbar

re: #241 Obdicut

A guy I used to work with went to the methadone clinic every day. Cost him $80/week. I mentioned to him that that is pretty pricey. He said it is cheaper than $200/day.

Did he have to steal the $80? That's what happens if a good idea isn't carried all the way out to its conclusion. His methadone should have been provided, not for his benefit, but for the benefit of some little old lady fumbling with her purse.

252 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:40:12am

re: #248 William Barnett-Lewis

Frankly sugar beets are a better source and, despite decades of C&H propaganda, sugar is sugar.

What's this?

253 A Mom Anon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:40:42am

re: #246 Cannadian Club Akbar

I forgot about that,but we could use sugar beets too. And maybe just a tad less sugars of all kinds in various products. It doesn't effect the taste that much. There are ways to do this,if we really wanted to do it and consumers began demanding it in greater numbers.

254 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:41:21am

re: #251 Decatur Deb

Did he have to steal the $80? That's what happens if a good idea isn't carried all the way out to its conclusion. His methadone should have been provided, not for his benefit, but for the benefit of some little old lady fumbling with her purse.

I mentioned to him that he should take a look/see to find out if he could get it through medicare/medicade, whatever. Not sure if he did.

255 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:42:01am

re: #248 William Barnett-Lewis

Frankly sugar beets are a better source and, despite decades of C&H propaganda, sugar is sugar.

Yeah, but not all makes good beer. On my first TDY to Germany I swore I'd drink a different beer every time. Stopped when I hit beet-based Dunkelmalz.

256 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:43:22am

re: #244 A Mom Anon

But we do make cane sugar here(more American jobs if we use more of our own stuff). And the price of soda would not skyrocket,cane sugar is not that expensive. If it were,the price of Pepsi and Mountain Dew Throwback would be more than the regular and they aren't. Same goes for those baked goods marked as having no HFCS,they're the same price. As for retooling the factories,that is not a huge change,the companies don't have to come up with anything new,they used sugar before HFCS came into being.

We make cane sugar, but not enough of it. What we'd need to get rid of HFCS is an allowance for additional sugar imports, and I favor that being done. But I'm not sure how to enact it into law.

257 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:43:54am

re: #248 William Barnett-Lewis

Frankly sugar beets are a better source and, despite decades of C&H propaganda, sugar is sugar.

re: #253 A Mom Anon

I forgot about that,but we could use sugar beets too. And maybe just a tad less sugars of all kinds in various products. It doesn't effect the taste that much. There are ways to do this,if we really wanted to do it and consumers began demanding it in greater numbers.

Once again, Big Sugar has really deep pockets.

258 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:44:30am

re: #256 Dark_Falcon

We make cane sugar, but not enough of it. What we'd need to get rid of HFCS is an allowance for additional sugar imports, and I favor that being done. But I'm not sure how to enact it into law.

Recognize Cuba. Venceremos.

259 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:45:44am

Dog walk is overdue--BBL.

260 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:46:07am

Remember when there was a sugar shortage in the 70's or early '80's? My dad wouldn't buy us a box of cereal if we begged. And believe me, we did!!:)

261 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:47:08am

re: #252 Cannadian Club Akbar

What's this?

California and Hawaiian Sugar Company AKA C&H [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

They used to run ads pushing the superiority of their Hawaiian grown cane sugar with lots of smiling happy Hawaiian natives laboring in the fields...

262 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:47:14am

re: #258 Decatur Deb

Recognize Cuba. Venceremos.

Increasing the monies available to the Castro brothers is not my idea of a smart tactic. I'd be OK with it only if it were preceded by their removal and replacement with a democratic government.

263 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:47:19am

re: #249 Dark_Falcon

That article does absolutely nothing to establish that stop and frisk works. Why are you offering it as evidence, when it doesn't support your cause at all?

Because its their best chance to end police practices they find intrusive while staying safe.

Dark, that is stupid beyond belief. You're asking people who grow up being victimized to develop some sort of far-reaching philosophical view on their own lives. How are they going to come to this realization? What education are they being given that would lead to this?

The truth is that if you take teenage boys and repeatedly humiliate them, you're going to build up resentment, destroy self-pride, and create an enormous problem. Your approach is as silly as abstinence-only campaigns, and depends on magical hand-waving of teenage boys becoming perfect rational actors.

Can you come up with an actual reason based in reality why stop and frisk should be continued, or is your only line of argument one based in magical thinking?

264 AK-47%  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:49:15am

re: #262 Dark_Falcon

Increasing the monies available to the Castro brothers is not my idea of a smart tactic. I'd be OK with it only if it were preceded by their removal and replacement with a democratic government.

Becasue we are such past masters at supervising a transition to a democratic government.

But in one respect you are right; we need not be giving the Catro brothers any more money.

And considering the amont of money that people like Mitt Romney like to park offshore, we should really not be granting them the option of parking it in Cuba.

265 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:49:43am

re: #258 Decatur Deb

Recognize Cuba. Venceremos.

And once that money starts flowing... well, remember what happened to Eastern Europe? ;)

266 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:51:11am

re: #262 Dark_Falcon

Increasing the monies available to the Castro brothers is not my idea of a smart tactic. I'd be OK with it only if it were preceded by their removal and replacement with a democratic government.

Once that money is into the economy, the genie is out of the bottle.

267 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:51:22am

re: #263 Obdicut

Because it reduces the number of illegal guns on the street, and it cause those guns that remain to be kept off of the persons of the members of the gangs (thus they may hide it in a hole under a house's front staircase or in a can behind a bush, where they can get it quickly but not instantaneously). By getting the guns away from where they can be drawn in a couple of seconds, stop and frisk reduces shootings and murders.

268 A Mom Anon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:51:31am

re: #260 Cannadian Club Akbar

I honestly don't remember that and I was a teen/in my early 20's then,but my Mom never bought us sugared cereals as a kid. We ate Cheerios,shredded wheat and oatmeal. I never knew what a Fruit Loop or Captain Crunch tasted like til I was on my own,and yuck,I still can't stand that crap. I don't buy it for my kid either,the most sugary thing we have is those flake cereals with the little bits of granola thrown in. I mostly make my own granola now,so I can control the sugar.

Corporate lobbyists need to go the way of the dodo bird,don't know how to get that done,but it seems like that particular entity does much more harm to the people of this country than good.

269 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:53:00am

re: #266 William Barnett-Lewis

Once that money is into the economy, the genie is out of the bottle.

Is it now? I might call to your attention Libya, where greater oil wealth did not suffice to get rid of Gaddafi.

270 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:55:09am

re: #268 A Mom Anon

I generally eat shredded wheat but still like sugary cereals as a night time snack. But, the next time you're at the store pick up a box of Corn Flakes and look at the ingredients. I'll bet the second ingredient is sugar. The companies slip it in where you wouldn't think it would be.

271 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:55:32am

re: #267 Dark_Falcon

Because it reduces the number of illegal guns on the street, and it cause those guns that remain to be kept off of the persons of the members of the gangs (thus they may hide it in a hole under a house's front staircase or in a can behind a bush, where they can get it quickly but not instantaneously).

Dark, this is an assertion. Can you back up the idea that it reduces the number of illegal guns on the street?

Can you back up the idea that forcing criminals to hide guns from casual search lowers the homicide rate?

You keep repeating assertions, but you have yet to produce any evidence or real argument.

272 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 6:58:07am

Time to get ready & go to mass. BBL.

273 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:00:31am

re: #271 Obdicut

Dark, this is an assertion. Can you back up the idea that it reduces the number of illegal guns on the street?

Can you back up the idea that forcing criminals to hide guns from casual search lowers the homicide rate?

You keep repeating assertions, but you have yet to produce any evidence or real argument.

I've seen the articles on City Journal, and I'd say start there. I'm not sure where to go for the direct stats.

I'm not an expert on this Obdi, but with respect, neither are you. What I've posted was what I consider real argument.

274 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:05:19am

re: #273 Dark_Falcon

I've seen the articles on City Journal, and I'd say start there. I'm not sure where to go for the direct stats.

Then why do you believe the article in City Journal, if you have no idea what's backing it up? The article is almost entirely just a string of assertions, like your own argument.

I'm not an expert on this Obdi, but with respect, neither are you. What I've posted was what I consider real argument.

I've done actual work in this field, I've worked with homeless kids and gang members. Furthermore, your solution really is just magical thinking-- that teenage boys who have grown up in deprivation and physical threat will somehow achieve perfect rationality and endure humiliation and abuse because in the long run it may (though again, you haven't even begun to show this) be better for them.

I'm not an expert, but I'm not relying on magical thinking akin to abstinence only education in order to make my argument.

275 A Mom Anon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:08:29am

re: #270 Cannadian Club Akbar

yeah,my husband has heart disease,high blood pressure and type 2 diabetes,the trifecta of doom. There is salt and sugar in places you'd never think of it being. It's crazy. Out of all the dietary changes we've made minimizing salt has actually been the most difficult,sugar has been second.Because I can cook and adapt recipes it's been easier for us than in many families. Not everyone has those skills or the time needed. HFCS is hard to avoid,but not impossible,it just requires a ton of label reading. Sugar in general isn't an awful thing,it's the quantity that's the issue. If a cereal has less than 8- 10 grams of added sugar per cup I don't have too big a problem with it.

276 Mich-again  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:10:18am

Of the truckloads of firearms and ammunition that are legally sold to private gun owners, some amount will end up on the street one way or another. The supply through legal sales have skyrocketed the last few years so it makes sense that the illegal supply on the streets would increase as well. Thats the downside of all the unfettered access to firearms and ammunition that gun advocates think will enhance their own safety and protection. It means that the bad guys will have greater access to more weapons too.

277 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:15:19am

re: #275 A Mom Anon

Salt is everywhere. This is why I generally don't buy canned veggies. And one problem with sugar free foods (I had to shop for my dad who had type 2) like cookies is they replace sugar with fats. If more people would actually read labels there would be more people turning to a healthier diet with the exception of one's "guilty pleasures".

278 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:20:16am

Mornin' gang.

279 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:21:00am

re: #278 darthstar

Mornin' gang.

Quit the gang life, it's not too late.

280 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:21:06am

re: #277 Cannadian Club Akbar

I get too much salt and the sides of my tongue get tingly...that happened last night toward the end of my second margarita.

281 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:22:21am

re: #269 Dark_Falcon

Is it now? I might call to your attention Libya, where greater oil wealth did not suffice to get rid of Gaddafi.

The Colonel is not available for comment.

We've played out that stupid Havana soap opera for 50 years, all the while wasting 55,000 kids and then recognizing Viet Nam.

282 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:23:06am

re: #280 darthstar

I get too much salt and the sides of my tongue get tingly...that happened last night toward the end of my second margarita.

I order them w/o salt when I have them. I was actually at the liquor store last night and they had margarita freezer pops. Just like the regular ones only better.:)

283 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:26:18am

re: #274 Obdicut

Then why do you believe the article in City Journal, if you have no idea what's backing it up? The article is almost entirely just a string of assertions, like your own argument.

I've done actual work in this field, I've worked with homeless kids and gang members. Furthermore, your solution really is just magical thinking-- that teenage boys who have grown up in deprivation and physical threat will somehow achieve perfect rationality and endure humiliation and abuse because in the long run it may (though again, you haven't even begun to show this) be better for them.

I'm not an expert, but I'm not relying on magical thinking akin to abstinence only education in order to make my argument.

I don't think teenage boys are rational in general. Stop and frisk shouldn't be the only thing done, anyway. What is also needed is an explanation as to why it has to be this way, that this approach is being used because the imperative to prevent violent crime. Along with that, add programs to teach young men the right way to live. Find those with promise, especially if they are at risk, and get them out of the city for trips and camps to teach them that there is a bigger world out there and that they can be better than those streets.

Run those programs with people other than police, of course. But let the cops know about those programs and see if they can keep gang pressure away from those in them. I'm not talking about having the kids inform on others, but gangs won't take well to programs intended to keep young men away from them and they may to try to force people out of said programs. For those with real promise in really bad areas, boarding schools might be a solution.

284 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:26:30am

re: #277 Cannadian Club Akbar

Salt is everywhere. This is why I generally don't buy canned veggies. And one problem with sugar free foods (I had to shop for my dad who had type 2) like cookies is they replace sugar with fats. If more people would actually read labels there would be more people turning to a healthier diet with the exception of one's "guilty pleasures".

Probably not. That's why teaching points like your "shop from the edges of the supermarket" are so meaningful. People will understand things like that, few will memorize the food pyramid or plate (whatever it's called).

285 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:26:45am

re: #282 Cannadian Club Akbar

I order then w/o salt when I have them. I was actually at the liquor store last night and they had margarita freezer pops. Just like the regular ones only better.:)

Margarita pops...next you'll tell me you order jello shots at the Ritz.

286 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:27:46am

re: #285 darthstar

Margarita pops...next you'll tell me you order jello shots at the Ritz.

Like I can afford the Ritz.

287 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:28:38am

re: #286 Cannadian Club Akbar

Like I can afford the Ritz.

Cheaper than Triscuits.

288 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:29:19am

re: #284 Decatur Deb

Probably not. That's why teaching points like your "shop from the edges of the supermarket" are so meaningful. People will understand things like that, few will memorize the food pyramid or plate (whatever it's called).

Another bad thing is when parents try to coax their kids to eat, say, fresh veggies, what do they serve with them? Ranch dressing.

289 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:29:44am

re: #283 Dark_Falcon

I don't think teenage boys are rational in general.

Then why are you proposing a solution that's based solely on teenage boys being rational?

Stop and frisk shouldn't be the only thing done, anyway. What is also needed is an explanation as to why it has to be this way, that this approach is being used because the imperative to prevent violent crime.

Why do you think that explanation would work or be believed?

Along with that, add programs to teach young men the right way to live. Find those with promise, especially if they are at risk, and get them out of the city for trips and camps to teach them that there is a bigger world out there and that they can be better than those streets.

This will cost a very large amount of money. Are you willing to spend that money?

Oh, and all of them have promise.

Run those programs with people other than police, of course. But let the cops know about those programs and see if they can keep gang pressure away from those in them. I'm not talking about having the kids inform on others, but gangs won't take well to programs intended to keep young men away from them and they may to try to force people out of said programs. For those with real promise in really bad areas, boarding schools might be a solution.

This has stopped being a solution for crime and poverty in the black population in general, and turned into a way to save the 'best and the brightest' and remove them from the community.

That is not the point. The point is to help the whole poverty-stricken black ghetto, not just the ones that are really smart or talented.

290 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:30:13am

re: #287 Decatur Deb

Cheaper than Triscuits.

I actually buy the generic kind. It's the only way you'll get me to eat wheat. I hate wheat bread, pasta, etc.

291 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:30:50am

re: #288 Cannadian Club Akbar

Another bad thing is when parents try to coax their kids to eat, say, fresh veggies, what do they serve with them? Ranch dressing.

That's almost child abuse, when Honey Mustard is so available.

292 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:31:04am

re: #278 darthstar

Mornin' gang.

Heh...just scrolled up the thread a bit...didn't realize we were actually talking about gangs. I'm glad I didn't throw out the wrong hand sign and get myself shot.

Yo homeyz

293 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:31:52am

re: #291 Decatur Deb

That's almost child abuse, when Honey Mustard is so available.

Honey mustard is just as bad. Want a HM recipe? Mayo, honey, brown mustard. That's it.

294 AK-47%  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:32:06am

re: #277 Cannadian Club Akbar

Salt is everywhere. This is why I generally don't buy canned veggies. And one problem with sugar free foods (I had to shop for my dad who had type 2) like cookies is they replace sugar with fats. If more people would actually read labels there would be more people turning to a healthier diet with the exception of one's "guilty pleasures".

I brought home some ready-made frozen paella the other week: looked good and healthy: fish, chicken, rice and veggies.

Then I noticed that one helping dontained 75% of your RDA of salt. I said what the heck, it's a hot day and i am sweating a lot and ate it anyways, but will not bring it home again.

295 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:32:33am

re: #292 darthstar

Heh...just scrolled up the thread a bit...didn't realize we were actually talking about gangs. I'm glad I didn't throw out the wrong hand sign and get myself shot.

Yo homeyz

Like we need a hand sign to want to shoot you.
/

296 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:33:17am

re: #293 Cannadian Club Akbar

Honey mustard is just as bad. Want a HM recipe? Mayo, honey, brown mustard. That's it.

Sarcing. Wife says HM is even worse. I do like it, though.

297 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:33:39am

re: #293 Cannadian Club Akbar

Honey mustard is just as bad. Want a HM recipe? Mayo, honey, brown mustard. That's it.

Actually Ranch is worse because of the buttermilk.

298 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:35:21am

re: #297 Cannadian Club Akbar

Actually Ranch is worse because of the buttermilk.

I thought all foods like that were sugar and things from the wrong end of the periodic table.

299 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:36:39am

re: #298 Decatur Deb

I thought all foods like that were sugar and things from the wrong end of the periodic table.

Just remember this: If it taste really good it will prolly kill you.:)

300 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:39:12am

re: #289 Obdicut

I don't know how to answer that. This is a case where interlinked problems render solutions other than keeping the lid on or removing the best from bad places very hard. Many of the problems are cultural, and won't go away quickly. I don't like ideas of removal, since I know how they were employed on Native Americans (this refers to the use of boarding schools to eliminate Native American children's cultural identity, a evil practice now largely gone), but the culture of gang intimidation is a problem I don't know how to solve by other means than removal or aggressive policing.

301 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:39:23am

re: #289 Obdicut

Youth programs work. My first job out of college was teaching at risk youth and I ran a dial-up BBS called TOTT (turn on to teens) out of the county program I worked for that connected the at-risk kids studying in my class with incarcerated youth in the CYA (California Youth Authority, or Juvenile Hall). It wasn't bragging and posturing...it was 'GETMETHEHELLOUTOFHERE' frankness from the inside kids and a better understanding of why they should get their shit together for the kids in my program. It wasn't perfect, but it helped. I lost one kid to jail during that job.

This half-assed shit - don't make our police do it but keep them apprised of the situation just in case they take an interest - is another way of saying, "don't spend money on those kids...they don't deserve it."

302 AK-47%  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:41:34am

re: #293 Cannadian Club Akbar

Honey mustard is just as bad. Want a HM recipe? Mayo, honey, brown mustard. That's it.

Well guess what: Honey Mustard doesn't give a shit...

303 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:42:43am

re: #301 darthstar

That wasn't what I was saying. I was concerned that if you have police too openly looking after certain kids, those kids might be branded as 'rats' or some such and additionally targeted.

304 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:42:51am

re: #300 Dark_Falcon

, but the culture of gang intimidation is a problem I don't know how to solve by other means than removal or aggressive policing.

Any reason you're choosing to ignore what I and Decatur Deb have said?

305 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:44:26am

re: #301 darthstar

It's always amazing how many kids will take advantage of it if you offer something. Midnight basketball is one of my favorites for that.

306 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:44:45am

re: #300 Dark_Falcon

I don't know how to answer that. This is a case where interlinked problems render solutions other than keeping the lid on or removing the best from bad places very hard. Many of the problems are cultural, and won't go away quickly. I don't like ideas of removal, since I know how they were employed on Native Americans (this refers to the use of boarding schools to eliminate Native American children's cultural identity, a evil practice now largely gone), but the culture of gang intimidation is a problem I don't know how to solve by other means than removal or aggressive policing.

The best way to solve gang violence is by attrition. Gangs are relatively small groups...(not counting the huge Hispanic gangs that span generations). Many kids in gangs, if they don't get killed before they drop out of high school and wind up in prison, eventually get older and realize they can't just hang out on corners throwing signs at their friends. Their girlfriends want the kids they had to get fed occasionally.

Community programs (with police support) work because they take the five and six year olds, and the seven and eight year olds, and the nine and ten year olds - the kids most likely to want to join a gang when they turn 12 or 13 - and give them something better. It doesn't reach everyone, but within 10 years or so, the gang gets smaller, and eventually moves on or dies altogether.

307 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:44:50am

re: #302 Expand Your Ground

Well guess what: Honey Mustard doesn't give a shit...

Neither does your paella!!!
/

308 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:45:52am

re: #300 Dark_Falcon

I don't know how to answer that. This is a case where interlinked problems render solutions other than keeping the lid on or removing the best from bad places very hard. Many of the problems are cultural, and won't go away quickly. I don't like ideas of removal, since I know how they were employed on Native Americans (this refers to the use of boarding schools to eliminate Native American children's cultural identity, a evil practice now largely gone), but the culture of gang intimidation is a problem I don't know how to solve by other means than removal or aggressive policing.

Drop the war on drugs thus,

Preventing felonization of young males of all races thus,

Allowing the market and artificial job creation to provide paychecks thus,

Keeping fathers in their families.

See how that goes.

309 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:49:02am

re: #303 Dark_Falcon

That wasn't what I was saying. I was concerned that if you have police too openly looking after certain kids, those kids might be branded as 'rats' or some such and additionally targeted.

This isn't a TV show. Kids are kids. Even gang kids are kids. Eventually, they all want to have fun and belong to something. The gang is a crappy substitute for structure in their lives. They posture about not giving a shit, but that's just fluff and bullshit. It goes away as soon as the individual gang member realizes everyone else moving forward doesn't hate him/her and he/she is welcome to come along. But it happens one kid at a time.

310 AK-47%  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:54:39am

re: #307 Cannadian Club Akbar

Neither does your paella!!!
/

but my blood pressure does...

311 A Mom Anon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:56:51am

re: #300 Dark_Falcon

How about offering those communities alternatives to joining a gang AND using those police resources to protect and serve those kids and their families from the gangs who will resist those alternatives? There's alot that can be done here,if we had the will as a nation to do it. Like,a little urban renewal,community gardens(for growing food as well as for aesthetic purposes),vocational schooling,drug rehab,crisis counselling and therapy for families in need,school improvement,bringing the community together and getting their input(so that people feel invested and their needs get met),engaging that community to help police itself,the list goes on and on. Some things work,some things don't,some things will need to be adapted to meet the needs of the people who live there.

I've been a mom for most of my adult life and I can tell you,punishing people when they screw up is not a solution to anything. You don't have to reward them,but purely punitive means haven't worked,being more punitive isn't going to make it work better.

312 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:59:38am

Of course, nobody reads the Wall Street Journal but still...

313 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:02:47am

re: #311 A Mom Anon

Good ideas, but they are hard to implement. Politicians see the difficulties and then lapse back into safer slogan shouting.

314 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:06:12am

re: #312 darthstar

Of course, nobody reads the Wall Street Journal but still...

[Embedded content]

From the WSJ article:

Perhaps this is how it will all turn out, but someone should point out that this policy-free zone is risky in its own way. By failing to explain his own agenda, Mr. Romney has left an opening for Democrats and Mr. Obama to define it instead. We wouldn't be surprised to see them pivot away from personal attacks on Mr. Romney and Bain next week and devote all of their time to assailing his policies.

Ya think? It's Mitt's lack of substance that makes this possible. He has already stated repeatedly that he will release no details of his economic or foreign policy plans until after he reaches office. In other words, he has none.

315 AK-47%  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:06:30am

re: #311 A Mom Anon

...I can tell you,punishing people when they screw up is not a solution to anything. You don't have to reward them,but purely punitive means haven't worked,being more punitive isn't going to make it work better.

Jackson Browne's comment on Nancy Reagan's "Just say no!" campaign:

"You need to give the kids something to say 'yes' to!"

316 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:11:41am

re: #314 darthstar

He has already stated repeatedly that he will release no details of his economic or foreign policy plans until after he reaches office. In other words, he has none.

Maybe he graduated from the Nancy Pelosi School of You'll Have To Pass The Bill To Read The Bill!

317 Ghazicide  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:13:26am

Balance Cookie.

318 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:14:08am

Another angry old white man fires back...

Times have changed...so, quit complaining
To the Editor:

I am white. I am male. I am also 68 and a Vietnam Era veteran. And I am angry.
And I know many people my age who are also angry. They see gays and lesbians demanding the right to get married. They see a black man in the White House with a strange sounding name, changing our health care system and suggesting that we as a nation might have something to do with the sorry state of affairs in the world.
To my fellow seniors who are upset and alarmed at this, I have a message: Stop feeling sorry for yourself! Enough of your whining! The world is changing, and it's about time you got off your mental easy chair and did the same! Your stubborn resistance to change is maddening!
Upset about gay lifestyle? I am married more than 40 years ... to a woman ... and I do not in any way feel threatened by gays and lesbians who wish to be wed. Here's some advice – one senior to another – try minding your own business.
When I see you no longer eating pork or working on Sunday, then I'll take your Bible-based opposition to gay marriage seriously.
And while you are at it, stop complaining about this so-called “socialist” president as you sit in your easy chairs collecting both Medicare and Social Security. And don't swallow the hogwash about a Republican saving Medicare and a Democrat “robbing” it. Please, don't make seniors look senile by swallowing that lie. ( I'll deal with that lie in my next letter.)
You constantly lament how things have gotten worse. Yes, they have.
Ours was a noble generation that fought for Medicare, for equal rights for women and blacks, clean air and water and decent wages for all. Now too many of us fight for tax breaks for the wealthiest few and more power and money for corporations. How noble is that?
We admired and respected broadcasters like Walter Cronkite and Paul Harvey. Men of integrity. Now we are taken in by any right-wing blowhard with a microphone, the biggest being a four-times married, self-admitted drug abuser. Another so insane, even Fox News dropped him.
And, yes, there is a black man in the White House. It's a sign of the changing face of America. I fully understand for many this is an uncomfortable sign; your old world is gone. For most, what you feel is not bigotry; it's fear. Deep down fear.
Please! It's 2012. Stop fearing change! Embrace it! Welcome it as we did so many years ago because change is here and will continue with or without our help.

Charlie Lawrence
Johnston

319 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:14:13am

re: #316 sattv4u2

He has already stated repeatedly that he will release no details of his economic or foreign policy plans until after he reaches office. In other words, he has none.

Maybe he graduated from the Nancy Pelosi School of You'll Have To Pass The Bill To Read The Bill!

Yeah--her presidential campaign really took off after that.

320 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:15:30am

re: #316 sattv4u2

Maybe he graduated from the Nancy Pelosi School of You'll Have To Pass The Bill To Read The Bill!

Really? A shot at Pelosi is all you've got to defend Mitt Romney with, Satt? Late night last night?

321 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:17:37am

re: #318 darthstar

Another angry old white man fires back...

Damn--
I swear I didn't write that. But I could have. (Sixty-eight, drafted in '65, today is our 45th wedding anniversary.)

322 Ghazicide  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:18:50am

re: #321 Decatur Deb

Damn--
I swear I didn't write that. But I could have. (Sixty-eight, drafted in '65, today is our 45th wedding anniversary.)

Holy crap! You one bad ass dude. But wifey is mo' bad ass to put up with you for 45 years!

323 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:19:08am

re: #321 Decatur Deb

Damn--
I swear I didn't write that. But I could have. (Sixty-eight, drafted in '65, today is our 45th wedding anniversary.)

Woo-hoo! Happy Anniversary!

Youtube Video
324 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:20:28am

re: #322 Kronocide

Holy crap! You one bad ass dude. But wifey is mo' bad ass to put up with you for 45 years!

Gonna have to take the old bat out for a taco.

325 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:23:05am

Yeah, I noticed the camera stayed off her during Clint...that's probably a good thing.

326 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:26:16am

re: #317 Kronocide

Balance Cookie.

OUTRAGE!!

I'd call my representative if I were you

327 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:27:20am

re: #320 darthstar

Really? A shot at Pelosi is all you've got to defend Mitt Romney with, Satt? Late night last night?

Ah,, sorry

Mustn't stray from the script, right?

328 A Mom Anon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:28:02am

re: #324 Decatur Deb

You better have something beyond a taco there buddy. 45 yrs with your cranky old behind? LOL,I keed,I keed. Congrats.

329 Gus  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:28:11am

Derp.

330 Ghazicide  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:28:52am

re: #327 sattv4u2

Ah,, sorry

Mustn't stray from the script, right?

Derp.

331 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:28:59am

re: #327 sattv4u2

Ah,, sorry

Mustn't stray from the script, right?

Not if you like your Soros Zionist checks.

332 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:29:10am

re: #321 Decatur Deb

Damn--
I swear I didn't write that. But I could have. (Sixty-eight, drafted in '65, today is our 45th wedding anniversary.)

Happy Anniversary!!


Wifey and I are approaching 25 years

To this day, we still go out twice a week!!

(she goes on Tuesdays, I go on Fridays)

333 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:29:53am

re: #331 Decatur Deb

Not if you like your Soros Zionist checks.

I get mine from an offshore Bain account

shhhhhh

334 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:30:53am

re: #328 A Mom Anon

You better have something beyond a taco there buddy. 45 yrs with your cranky old behind? LOL,I keed,I keed. Congrats.

Two tacos, a dos Equis and an unsweet tea will cost almost exactly what we paid for our handmade rings in the Village in '67.

335 A Mom Anon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:33:15am

re: #313 Dark_Falcon

So what if it's hard to do? Anything worth doing has difficulties and setbacks. Giving up shouldn't be an option. And waiting for lame ass politicians to do anything isn't the answer either. All over this country people are doing things but it takes involved citizenry,alot of them,stepping out of their comfort zones and giving a shit. You can't fix it all,but sometimes just fixing a little is enough to start something bigger. Anger is contagious,so is apathy. But,so is kindness and compassion. Pick a side,but don't bitch and pass judgement if you pick the anger and apathy side.

336 Ghazicide  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:35:11am

Talk to the chair

337 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:37:39am

re: #335 A Mom Anon

So what if it's hard to do? Anything worth doing has difficulties and setbacks. Giving up shouldn't be an option. And waiting for lame ass politicians to do anything isn't the answer either. All over this country people are doing things but it takes involved citizenry,alot of them,stepping out of their comfort zones and giving a shit. You can't fix it all,but sometimes just fixing a little is enough to start something bigger. Anger is contagious,so is apathy. But,so is kindness and compassion. Pick a side,but don't bitch and pass judgement if you pick the anger and apathy side.

No more turning away.

338 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:40:32am

re: #335 A Mom Anon

All over this country people are doing things but it takes involved citizenry,alot of them,stepping out of their comfort zones and giving a shit. You can't fix it all,but sometimes just fixing a little is enough to start something bigger. Anger is contagious,so is apathy. But,so is kindness and compassion.

This. Fear of failure is what keeps people from trying, and that is what all the arguments against trying to help add up to. It won't work. There are bad kids. Pull the good ones out and save them (Then what? Nuke the neighborhood?).

339 Gus  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:44:35am

Yawn.

340 Gus  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:44:54am

Echo, echo, echo.

341 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:45:04am

re: #339 Gus

Yawn.

Mornin' sleepy...just wake up?

342 Gus  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:46:24am

re: #341 darthstar

Mornin' sleepy...just wake up?

Nah. That was a rhetorical yawn. Was just thinking about the rampant Dark Falcon Derangement in this place of late.

343 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:46:26am
344 A Mom Anon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:46:58am

re: #337 Decatur Deb

I almost launched into my "Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"speech there for a minute.

The thing is,people will tell you all the time there's no hope. Sometimes there's not,but most of the time,there absolutely is.

If I had listened to people when my son was little I doubt seriously he'd be where he is now. Jesus, I had people recommending institutionalizing him and making him a ward of the state when he was 3. No hope,he won't talk,won't read,won't have any sort of a normal life ever. And I swear he worked specifically to prove each and every nay sayer wrong. He's one of the bravest people I know,even though he mostly doesn't feel brave.

My kid is part of a small group of kids into heavy metal music that goes to a little night club run by a guy who gives a damn. Alot of these kids are throw aways,they have either come out as gay or been labeled as some sort of freak and have no parental support. They've formed their own little family. And these are kids from well off white suburbia. You'd be surprised what a little concern does for these kids. They act all tough and shit,they have to,but give them a meal or offer to help them get to a job interview and you see them tear up. Compassion works miracles,it really does.

345 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:48:03am

re: #342 Gus

Nah. That was a rhetorical yawn. Was just thinking about the rampant Dark Falcon Derangement in this place of late.

It's his "turn"

There have been/ will be others. Some deserved, some, not so much

346 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:49:01am

re: #29 Kronocide

Bill Nye Blasts Todd Akin, Challenges ‘Fucking Idiot’ to Debate

Bill Nye the WINNING Guy.

To funny! I want to see the video.

It's as if Mr. Rogers got pushed to the edge!

347 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:49:08am

re: #342 Gus

Nah. That was a rhetorical yawn. Was just thinking about the rampant Dark Falcon Derangement in this place of late.

Sometimes I think he's just pretending to be a closed minded idiot with zero comprehension of culture or society. If he is, it's an effective ruse, because I always find myself trying in some way to reach into his cerebellum and squeeze out some sense.

348 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:49:29am

Good news

Pakistan Arrests Christian Girl's Accuser

The cleric, Khalid Chishti, was arrested late Saturday for allegedly planting pages of a Quran in a shopping bag containing burned papers and ash that had been carried by the Christian girl, said Munir Jaffery, an investigating officer in the case. The bag was then submitted as evidence to the police.

The officer said a member of the mosque where the cleric works came forward Saturday and said man said the imam had placed the evidence in the bag. According to police, the man claimed Mr. Chishti said it was a way to get rid of the Christians.

349 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:50:11am

re: #347 darthstar

I always find myself trying in some way to reach into his cerebellum and squeeze out some sense.

Lofty goal!

Me, I just want some fresh squeezed orange juice

350 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:51:23am

re: #346 ggt

To funny! I want to see the video.

It's as if Mr. Rogers got pushed to the edge!

I didn't catch it all, but got the impression that story is badly-done satire, one of the sites that does the Onion shtick, but without the give-away.

351 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:51:33am

re: #346 ggt

To funny! I want to see the video.

It's as if Mr. Rogers got pushed to the edge!

I think the story's a fake

Snopes:Bill Nye Blasts Todd Akin

352 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:51:56am

re: #42 moderatelyradicalliberal

This race war stuff is just an expressed desire for genocide. Black people make up 12% of the entire population in the USA, how in the world could we win this impending race war?

I've heard with my own ears, more than one so-called moderate Republican tell me that Revolution is coming. I interpret it to mean *Civil War*.

As the current rhetoric has been extrememly profitable for the Gun Industry et. al., it seems logical they would want another 4 years for Obama --no? Corporations, regardless of the product they produce and market, answer to their stockholders. Stockholders of Firearm Manufacturers must be very happy over the last 4 years.

It's about Money and Power folks.

353 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:51:57am

re: #348 Killgore Trout

Good news

Pakistan Arrests Christian Girl's Accuser

It also has triggered an exodus of hundreds of Christians from the neighborhood where the girl lived, fearful of retribution

{sigh}

354 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:52:51am

re: #43 OhNoZombies!

Mithridatism doesn't work.
I used to read Vdare

You mean science? vaccinations, allergy shots etc.

:)

355 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:53:37am

re: #351 Killgore Trout

I think the story's a fake

Snopes:Bill Nye Blasts Todd Akin

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

356 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:53:44am

More good news
Yemen: Drone kills alleged tanker attacker

Yemen's military says a U.S. drone strike has killed a top al-Qaida militant wanted for allegedly masterminding a 2002 attack on a French oil tanker.

The Defense Ministry said in a statement on Sunday that Khaled Batis, wanted in connection with the attack on the Limburg off the coast of Yemen that killed one person, was among five militants riding a vehicle struck by a drone Friday in the southern city of Hadramawt.

357 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:53:52am

re: #348 Killgore Trout

Good news

Pakistan Arrests Christian Girl's Accuser

Better news by far would be the repeal of the blasphemy laws, but people get killed over there just for mentioning the possibility.

358 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:54:43am

re: #353 sattv4u2

It also has triggered an exodus of hundreds of Christians from the neighborhood where the girl lived, fearful of retribution

{sigh}

Yeah, it sucks but not much can be done about that. I do hope they manage to safely relocate the girl.

359 Ghazicide  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:55:23am

re: #345 sattv4u2

It's his "turn"

There have been/ will be others. Some deserved, some, not so much

Book: A Victim's Narrative

Chapter 4: Cry Me A River

That's a pretty pathetic the false narrative being fomented. DF's ideas are being attacked, not DF. He's pretty well respected as a person, though his ideas may not always be.

If that's not the ultimate in fairness and objectivity I don't know what is.

So go ahead and continue your bullshit narrative that disrespects this blog, I see right through it. You, like DF, deserve a level of personal respect though your ideas don't. Especially your mendacious narrative that some majority is oppressing some minority.

360 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:56:52am

re: #356 Killgore Trout

More good news
Yemen: Drone kills alleged tanker attacker

The terrorists are lucky they have a marxist-muslim friend in the oval office, or things might get dicey.

361 Ghazicide  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:57:14am

re: #346 ggt

To funny! I want to see the video.

It's as if Mr. Rogers got pushed to the edge!

There's no video, it's a fake. I posted it even though I did notice there was no video... my bad.

362 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:58:03am

re: #360 Decatur Deb

The terrorists are lucky they have a marxist-muslim friend in the oval office, or things might get dicey.

I think a lot of them pine for the good old days of the Bush regime when things were safer.

363 Gus  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:58:04am

re: #347 darthstar

Sometimes I think he's just pretending to be a closed minded idiot with zero comprehension of culture or society. If he is, it's an effective ruse, because I always find myself trying in some way to reach into his cerebellum and squeeze out some sense.

In a way I'm kind of glad about all of this. It's a reminder that even people who agree with me politically can be complete dicks at times.

364 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:58:55am

re: #359 Kronocide

Funny how you didn't comment to Gus's #342

Nah. That was a rhetorical yawn. Was just thinking about the rampant Dark Falcon Derangement in this place of late.

Thanks for proving the point!

365 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 8:59:15am

re: #362 Killgore Trout

I think a lot of them pine for the good old days of the Bush regime when things were safer.

Can't even take the Toyota down to the souk for a goatburger.

366 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:00:13am

re: #61 goddamnedfrank

LOL. The point is you prefer focusing on symptoms rather than root causes. You fixate on race and actually say racist shit like "Chicago's crime problem is severely disproportionally the fault of young black males." The fault predominately lies with the society that makes so many young black males feel that their future options are all closed off. You were born white to an upper middle class family, but that's not the reason you like surface level analysis and non-instructive answers, the reason you gravitate towards simplistic non thoughts is because confronting root causes would mean challenging your hand me down ideology.

Your focus on role models and faithlessness is similarly hand me down nonsense, especially the idea of tying aid to induce cultural change, treating real struggling people with complex problems like simpleminded animals amenable to carrot and stick based incentives. Divorce and children raised in non traditional families is an incredibly complicated subject, not all that conducive to being fixed by reflexively blaming fatherlessness.

Young men need Old men. If they don't have a their father, grandfather, uncle, step-father, teacher or church leader they will find someone. Unfortunatly, in all neighborhoods and cultures, there are those who wait for these young men in order to exploit them. I don't think it is specifically an urban issue. IIRC, a large proportion of young men in Super Max are white supremacists.

367 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:00:29am

Image: 538436_458157507550971_1983078368_n.jpg

368 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:00:38am

re: #360 Decatur Deb

The terrorists are lucky they have a marxist-muslim friend in the oval office, or things might get dicey.

That's one thing this election isn't about: Whoever wins, those drones won't be called off. Drone strikes are acceptable to the American public and work fairly well at killing terrorists.

369 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:00:50am

re: #321 Decatur Deb

Damn--
I swear I didn't write that. But I could have. (Sixty-eight, drafted in '65, today is our 45th wedding anniversary.)

God bless you both. I expect an invite in 30 years to your 75th anniversary ;)

370 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:00:52am

re: #66 Dark_Falcon

I don't agree with that at all. Family breakdown is one of the root causes IMO, as it causes young men to grow up lacking discipline and with bad role models near to hand. Teach the young the right ways to live, and doors heretofore shut will be opened.

define family . . .

371 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:01:34am

re: #367 darthstar

Image: 538436_458157507550971_1983078368_n.jpg

Thing is, at her (and soon my) age, she probably really thinks someones next to her!!

372 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:01:55am

re: #363 Gus

In a way I'm kind of glad about all of this. It's a reminder that even people who agree with me politically can be complete dicks at times.

Oh, hell...I know I can be a dick. I simply find it easier to admit than prevent.

373 Ghazicide  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:02:22am

re: #364 sattv4u2

Funny how you didn't comment to Gus's #342

Nah. That was a rhetorical yawn. Was just thinking about the rampant Dark Falcon Derangement in this place of late.

Thanks for proving the point!

What is your point? Something about Oppressed Minority Derangement in LGF?

374 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:02:35am

re: #369 William Barnett-Lewis

God bless you both. I expect an invite in 30 years to your 75th anniversary ;)

I believe the gift at the 75th is fiber.
/

375 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:03:24am

re: #368 Dark_Falcon

That's one thing this election isn't about: Whoever wins, those drones won't be called off. Drone strikes are acceptable to the American public and work fairly well at killing terrorists.

They're acceptable so long as they're killing foreigners in foreign land. Fly one over Houston and use it to kill a gang banger and then tell me how acceptable they are to the American public.

376 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:03:49am

It is morning and for some reason, I started reading the overnight thread at the beginning.

How is everyone?

377 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:04:54am

re: #373 Kronocide

What is your point? Something about Oppressed Minority Derangement in LGF?

The "point" was my agreement with Gus's #342

Not sure how you miss that,, again!

378 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:05:26am

re: #376 ggt

It is morning and for some reason, I started reading the overnight thread at the beginning.

How is everyone?

That's SFZ syndrome. See a mixologist immediately.

379 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:05:29am

re: #372 darthstar

Oh, hell...I know I can be a dick. I simply find it easier to admit than prevent.

one of the vital 12 steps!!!

380 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:06:03am

re: #361 Kronocide

There's no video, it's a fake. I posted it even though I did notice there was no video... my bad.

still funny as hell

381 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:06:48am

re: #375 darthstar

They're acceptable so long as they're killing foreigners in foreign land. Fly one over Houston and use it to kill a gang banger and then tell me how acceptable they are to the American public.

True that. But then most gang bangers are American citizens with constitutional rights and thus may not be summarily executed. Foreign terrorists have no such rights, and killing them is an act of war against their organization, not an execution.

382 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:06:53am

re: #378 Decatur Deb

That's SFZ syndrome. See a mixologist immediately.

This is why I like you best!
/

383 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:07:06am

re: #373 Kronocide

re: #377 sattv4u2

The "point" was my agreement with Gus's #342

Not sure how you miss that,, again!

But I am enjoying how you're pretzling yourself to attempt to turn this on me!

Bravo

384 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:07:33am

re: #379 sattv4u2

one of the vital 12 steps!!!

I'm a member of the 1 step program for dicks.
1. I came to accept that I can be a dick at times, so why is it so hard for you?

385 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:08:19am

re: #381 Dark_Falcon

True that. But then most gang bangers are American citizens with constitutional rights and thus may not be summarily executed. Foreign terrorists have no such rights, and killing them is an act of war against their organization, not an execution.

Individuals on American soil, are considered US Persons, IIRC. They have the same rights as citizens. On American Soil, the Constitution prevails.

386 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:08:27am

re: #384 darthstar

I'm a member of the 1 step program for dicks.
1. I came to accept that I can be a dick at times, so why is it so hard for you?

LOL,, You have NO idea, do you

I wear my "dickishness" with pride

Been one for decades

387 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:08:44am

re: #379 sattv4u2

one of the vital 12 steps!!!

Admitting you have a problem is the 1ST STEP!

388 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:09:10am

re: #387 ggt

Admitting you have a problem is the 1ST STEP!

I'm a dick
Problem solved

389 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:09:17am

re: #378 Decatur Deb

That's SFZ syndrome. See a mixologist immediately.

Just finished my first mega-mug of fresh coffee.

Have to make another pot . . .

390 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:10:31am

re: #384 darthstar

I'm a member of the 1 step program for dicks.
1. I came to accept that I can am be a dick at times, so why is it so hard for you?

FTFY

:)

391 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:11:30am

re: #389 ggt

Just finished my first mega-mug of fresh coffee.

Have to make another pot . . .

That reminds me to thank you for the gatorade tip yesterday. It does help. Also through some other advice on that thread I think I figured out the problem is my sinuses. Used the neti pot took some aspirin and I'm doing much better.

392 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:11:59am

re: #388 sattv4u2

I'm a dick
Problem solved

You forgot the second part of the 1st Step.

393 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:12:11am

re: #392 ggt

You forgot the second part of the 1st Step.

DRINK!?!?!

394 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:12:25am

re: #381 Dark_Falcon

True that. But then most gang bangers are American citizens with constitutional rights and thus may not be summarily executed. Foreign terrorists have no such rights, and killing them is an act of war against their organization, not an execution.

You can't declare war on terrorists. Wars are fought between countries. Executing terrorists is no different than executing gang bangers. We just sanitize it by calling it a war on terror and ignore the "30 or less acceptable collateral" deaths that occur when one of those little hellfire missiles hits its target.

And, as Bush proved, National Security > Constitutional Rights...the constitution is just a piece of paper. Drones are here to stay...you've already accepted them.

395 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:12:33am

re: #391 Killgore Trout

That reminds me to thank you for the gatorade tip yesterday. It does help. Also through some other advice on that thread I think I figured out the problem is my sinuses. Used the neti pot took some aspirin and I'm doing much better.

Yes, I forgot about the sinus!

Glad I was able to help!!

396 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:12:57am

re: #391 Killgore Trout

That reminds me to thank you for the gatorade tip yesterday. It does help. Also through some other advice on that thread I think I figured out the problem is my sinuses. Used the neti pot took some aspirin and I'm doing much better.

I just found out that the father of one of the guys I played baseball with when I was 8 helped develop Gatorade.:)

397 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:12:58am

re: #387 ggt

Admitting you have a problem is the 1ST STEP!

It's not a problem. It's a feature. :)

398 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:13:31am

re: #393 sattv4u2

DRINK!?!?!

This is why I like you best!!
/don't tell Deb....

399 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:13:36am

re: #396 Cannadian Club Akbar

I just found out that the father of one of the guys I played baseball with when I was 8 helped develop Gatorade.:)

Kind of makes you rethink that whole gay marriage thing, eh?

400 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:13:43am

re: #394 darthstar

You can't declare war on terrorists. Wars are fought between countries. Executing terrorists is no different than executing gang bangers. We just sanitize it by calling it a war on terror and ignore the "30 or less acceptable collateral" deaths that occur when one of those little hellfire missiles hits its target.

And, as Bush proved, National Security > Constitutional Rights...the constitution is just a piece of paper. Drones are here to stay...you've already accepted them.

I think, sadly, there are people who have decided that a certain percentage of any population are beyond help. This may statistically be true, but that doesn't negate the rights of these individuals.

401 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:14:08am

re: #393 sattv4u2

DRINK!?!?!

recognizing that your life has become unmanageable.

402 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:14:54am

re: #396 Cannadian Club Akbar

I just found out that the father of one of the guys I played baseball with when I was 8 helped develop Gatorade.:)

I have a neighbor who has a cousin that lived next to a guy that knew a doctor that had a patient that rented a house from the father of the sister of the lady that helped develop that too!!

403 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:17:00am

Kid had surgery last week and can't walk on one leg for 3 weeks. He is 250lbs.

We are on day 4 and it is already a real drag . . .

404 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:17:12am

re: #401 ggt

recognizing that your life has become unmanageable.

Why do you think I drink?

405 Ghazicide  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:17:31am

re: #377 sattv4u2

The "point" was my agreement with Gus's #342

Not sure how you miss that,, again!

I notice how your reply to my comment was to agree with somebody else... but not reply to my comment.

You did that, again. The Satt Spin. I know how to get a ride on it without putting in a quarter.

406 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:17:37am

re: #403 ggt

Kid had surgery last week and can't walk on one leg for 3 weeks. He is 250lbs.

We are on day 4 and it is already a real drag . . .

damn, sorry,, but follow the docs orders

407 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:18:38am

re: #399 darthstar

Kind of makes you rethink that whole gay marriage thing, eh?

Actually, the guy (father) ended up killing his wife and then himself.

408 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:19:06am

re: #405 Kronocide

I notice how your reply to my comment was to agree with somebody else... but not reply to my comment.

You did that, again. The Satt Spin. I know how to get a ride on it without putting in a quarter.

{sigh}

So your original complaint was that I agree with Gus, but after being asked I tell you that my "point" was that I (wait for it) agree with Gus you reply that I can't use that!!

DRINK!!!!

409 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:19:32am

IIRC a large number of the young men in prison can't read.

Dyslexia and other learning disabilities are difficult to overcome once the person reaches this stage. Their self-identity is wrapped-up in the idea that they don't fit the educational model and can't learn in an academic setting.

It is so much cheaper in the long run to invest in our children, than to pay for the results of ignoring them.

410 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:19:42am

You people really have drinking problem.

411 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:20:14am

re: #410 Cannadian Club Akbar

You people really have drinking problem.

I drink
No problem

412 Varek Raith  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:20:21am

re: #407 Cannadian Club Akbar

Actually, the guy (father) ended up killing his wife and then himself.

Hello Mr Ray of Fucking Sunshine.
/

413 Varek Raith  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:20:50am

re: #410 Cannadian Club Akbar

You people really have drinking problem.

I can start anytime!

414 bratwurst  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:21:17am

re: #407 Cannadian Club Akbar

Actually, the guy (father) ended up killing his wife and then himself.

Image: Cool_Dog_Hey_Cool_story_bro41.jpg

415 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:21:22am

re: #401 ggt

recognizing that your life has become unmanageable.

Not my life, just my sock drawer.

416 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:21:38am

re: #413 Varek Raith

I can start anytime!

This is why I like you best!!!
/don't tell satt or deb

417 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:21:57am

re: #415 darthstar

Not my life, just my sock drawer.

sock drawer is just an analogy for life . . .

418 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:22:51am

re: #417 ggt

sock drawer is just an analogy for life . . .

Ask Darth about his margarita problem.

419 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:22:55am

re: #415 darthstar

Not my life, just my sock drawer.

Was sitting in a funeral parlor one day. Cousin next to me whispers

"you know you have one navy blue and one black sock on"

I whisper back

"Yup,, and I have a pair just like them at home"

420 Ghazicide  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:23:10am

re: #383 sattv4u2

re: #377 sattv4u2

But I am enjoying how you're pretzling yourself to attempt to turn this on me!

Bravo

You're a Whirling Dervish of Passive Aggressive Groucho Marxism. Any pretzling is caused by trying to keep on your Whirling track.

No comment on my key comment about Minority Oppression at LGF, noted.

421 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:23:33am

yup

422 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:24:44am
423 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:24:55am

re: #420 Kronocide

No comment on my key comment about Minority Oppression at LGF, noted.

Thats because thats your phrase, your head, your take

As Colin Cowherd is wont to say

That's a you problem, not a me problem

424 Ghazicide  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:25:30am

re: #408 sattv4u2

{sigh}

So your original complaint was that I agree with Gus, but after being asked I tell you that my "point" was that I (wait for it) agree with Gus you reply that I can't use that!!

DRINK!!!!

You're seriously confused. My 'compliant' was not a complaint, it was a statement of my opinion. My opinion had nothing to do with Gus. You have not replied to my opinion but are only confusing the discussion further.

425 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:26:23am

re: #418 Cannadian Club Akbar

Ask Darth about his margarita problem.

The thalt maketh my tongue numb.

426 Ghazicide  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:27:05am

re: #423 sattv4u2

No comment on my key comment about Minority Oppression at LGF, noted.

Thats because thats your phrase, your head, your take

As Colin Cowherd is wont to say

That's a you problem, not a me problem

It's actually a you problem because you keep bringing it up. It being the oppression of minority opinions on LGF.

427 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:27:40am

re: #426 Kronocide

It's actually a you problem because you keep bringing it up. It being the oppression of minority opinions on LGF.

I do?

ummm,,

eerrrrr,,,

aahhhh,,,

GAK

428 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:28:51am

re: #426 Kronocide

It's actually a you problem because you keep bringing it up. It being the oppression of minority opinions on LGF.

We oppress minorities?????

Which ones???

/

I personally have a problem with the Whacko Religious, domestic and foreign.

429 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:29:10am

re: #425 darthstar

The thalt maketh my tongue numb.

Margaritas are supposed to make the brain numb!!!

430 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:30:19am

re: #426 Kronocide

Lets start over

Gus said
Was just thinking about the rampant Dark Falcon Derangement in this place of late.

I agreed

You've asked me a number of times now what my "point" was and each time I've simply stated that I agreed with Gus

431 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:30:44am

re: #429 Cannadian Club Akbar

Margaritas are supposed to make the brain numb!!!

Not everyone carries their brain in the same area of the body . . . .

I give my dog as an example. His is entirely in his stomach. Others may carry it in their tongue -- why are you judging?

432 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:31:53am

Emo concern trolls is more like it.

433 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:32:27am

re: #429 Cannadian Club Akbar

Margaritas are supposed to make the brain numb!!!

I'm not sticking my penis into my drink.

434 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:32:34am

re: #418 Cannadian Club Akbar

Ask Darth about his margarita problem.

I did and he said he was waiting to hear back form Jimmy Buffet about it.

\

435 Ghazicide  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:32:50am

re: #427 sattv4u2

I do?

ummm,,

eerrrrr,,,

aahhhh,,,

GAK

I'm sorry for trying to pull at your tightly clutched pearls. I'm going away, nothing to fear, carry on.

436 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:33:45am

re: #434 Dark_Falcon

I did and he said he was waiting to hear back form Jimmy Buffet about it.

I'm married to a Parrot Head.

437 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:34:43am

re: #436 darthstar

I'm married to a Parrot Head.

40 years in Florida and never got to see him.:(

438 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:36:40am

re: #435 Kronocide

I'm sorry for trying to pull at your tightly clutched pearls. I'm going away, nothing to fear, carry on.

Where are we going? Brunch? The beach?? Can I bring a friend??

439 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:36:44am

How MSNBC Became Fox’s Liberal Evil Twin

MSNBC has pumped up its ratings by recasting itself as a left-leaning riposte to Fox News, and that’s fine. Fox long ago proved that a lot of viewers like to hear cable anchors echo what they already think; MSNBC is just playing catch-up. Fox is still well ahead, especially during a Republican convention, but on Tuesday, there were times when MSNBC drew significantly more convention viewers than CNN.

That’s because MSNBC offers counterprogramming, not coverage. All that arch sarcasm and partisan brio may rev up the cable channel’s fans, but it constrains — and stains — NBC News, its corporate sibling, which is still the country’s No. 1 source in the evening.
...
MSNBC talk shows are to network newscasts what blogs are to newspaper columns, shaggier and often less considered. And increasingly, viewers, like readers, have a hard time distinguishing one from the other.

440 Ghazicide  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:36:50am

re: #430 sattv4u2

Lets start over

Gus said
Was just thinking about the rampant Dark Falcon Derangement in this place of late.

I agreed

You've asked me a number of times now what my "point" was and each time I've simply stated that I agreed with Gus

You're not starting at the start.

Your response to me was to point out what somebody else said that you concurred with. That's fallacy because it's not a response to what I said. It's only a response.

441 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:37:49am

Normally the only reason I'd post any about or by Kim Kardashian would be for Free Token's amusement. This time I'm going to make an exception, because she actually took a picture of the NYC skyline that's worth posting:

Image: article-2196976-14CB9911000005DC-838_634x476.jpg

442 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:39:53am

re: #440 Kronocide

You're not starting at the start.

That was # 359

Me'thinks #342 is BEFORE #359,, but I guess thats just me!!

Lemme check

1, 2, 3, 4,, (this may take a few moments)

443 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:39:56am

Image: 249634_10151047856161279_1130814392_n.jpg

444 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:40:38am

re: #437 Cannadian Club Akbar

40 years in Florida and never got to see him.:(

I saw him in Indiana. It was the most mellow concert I've ever been to.

445 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:40:59am

re: #439 Killgore Trout

How MSNBC Became Fox’s Liberal Evil Twin

That's what Politico was saying about the coverage of the Wisconsin recall vote: FNC and MSNBC were both utterly partisan and not very informative, and only CNN had real coverage and analysis. By no coincidence, CNN has had lower ratings than FNC or MSNBC except for election results and debates.

/filed under the "We're Doomed" category.

446 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:41:24am

re: #436 darthstar

I'm married to a Parrot Head.

Maybe she needs a new hair stylist!!

447 Varek Raith  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:42:12am

re: #439 Killgore Trout

Pretty weak sauce.

448 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:42:55am

re: #441 Dark_Falcon

Normally the only reason I'd post any about or by Kim Kardashian would be for Free Token's amusement. This time I'm going to make an exception, because she actually took a picture of the NYC skyline that's worth posting:

Image: article-2196976-14CB9911000005DC-838_634x476.jpg

I must be missing something obvious, but I'm not seeing anything special.

449 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:43:58am

Ah well

Looks like I'll have to forage for my own brunch

SCHEDULE

Brunch, nap, shower, the long quiet drive to work!!

Livin' the Dream!

450 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:44:27am

re: #441 Dark_Falcon

It's your ability to actually follow Kim Kardashian I find most admirable about you.

451 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:44:52am

re: #448 William Barnett-Lewis

I must be missing something obvious, but I'm not seeing anything special.

The tits are just beneath the frame.

452 Sionainn  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:45:09am

re: #448 William Barnett-Lewis

I must be missing something obvious, but I'm not seeing anything special.

I thought it was just me. Whew!

453 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:45:44am

re: #445 Dark_Falcon

That's what Politico was saying about the coverage of the Wisconsin recall vote: FNC and MSNBC were both utterly partisan and not very informative, and only CNN had real coverage and analysis. By no coincidence, CNN has had lower ratings than FNC or MSNBC except for election results and debates.

/filed under the "We're Doomed" category.

CNN failed to evolve its business model into something people would want to watch. There's no doubt that MSNBC and fox have a built in tribalist audience. It's possible that "serious" news just isn't marketable on the same scale.

454 Varek Raith  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:46:17am

re: #447 Varek Raith

Pretty weak sauce.

Cited just 3 examples.
Two of which are true. Governor McDonnel and Reince.
The other is Chris being Chris.

455 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:48:12am

re: #453 Killgore Trout

CNN failed to evolve its business model into something people would want to watch. There's no doubt that MSNBC and fox have a built in tribalist audience. It's possible that "serious" news just isn't marketable on the same scale.

Except if you look at the accuracy of the information on Fox vs MSNBC there's no comparison. Sure, MSNBC is left leaning, but they are factual and they aren't afraid to call out Democrats when they act stupid. Fox doesn't have that problem, because they simply ignore both fact and any straying from the RNC checklist of appropriate topics.

456 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:49:29am

re: #448 William Barnett-Lewis

I must be missing something obvious, but I'm not seeing anything special.

It's from an angle I hadn't seen before and its well composed. Not special, but a good photograph, and one taken from a moving helicopter. Thus I find it worthy of noting.

457 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:50:57am

re: #455 darthstar

Except if you look at the accuracy of the information on Fox vs MSNBC there's no comparison. Sure, MSNBC is left leaning, but they are factual and they aren't afraid to call out Democrats when they act stupid. Fox doesn't have that problem, because they simply ignore both fact and any straying from the RNC checklist of appropriate topics.

Fox News business model: More blonds!!!

458 Ghazicide  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:52:13am

re: #442 sattv4u2

You're not starting at the start.

That was # 359

Me'thinks #342 is BEFORE #359,, but I guess thats just me!!

Lemme check

1, 2, 3, 4,, (this may take a few moments)

Wow, you really are confused. Gus' comment has nothing to do with mine.

I made a comment about minority oppression at LGF and your response to me was point to Gus' comment that you agreed with, which happened to be before mine.

Which means you didn't respond to the meaning and statement of my comment, you only responded by saying 'see, this guy agrees with me.' That's a meaningless response.

It's OK, I know you don't want to respond. But you're confused if you think Gus' comment has much to do with mine. The only relevance is that you're essentially saying 'see, this guy agrees with me.'

459 Ghazicide  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:53:39am

Sorry to Sattify the thread, I'm done now.

460 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:54:04am

re: #453 Killgore Trout

CNN failed to evolve its business model into something people would want to watch. There's no doubt that MSNBC and fox have a built in tribalist audience. It's possible that "serious" news just isn't marketable on the same scale.

Mr. Matthews looked almost thuggish on Wednesday night when the Arizona governor, Jan Brewer, 67, speaking from the din of the convention floor, complained she couldn’t hear his question.

“You can’t hear me?” he said. “Well, that’s convenient.”

On Thursday, Mr. Matthews fulminated against Paul Ryan’s — admittedly misleading — assertion that Mr. Obama did nothing to prevent the closing of a GM plant in 2008. Then Fox News attacked media figures who attacked Mr. Ryan. CNN took the harder course of parsing the entire issue: The correspondent Tom Foreman gave a long, industrious analysis that explained where and how Mr. Ryan finessed the facts.

The first is Chris Matthews being a asshole, the second bolded part turns out to have been wrong. The Janesville plant closed in 2009.

461 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:56:25am

have a wonderful morning all!

Didn't sleep much last night as kid is still in much need of help and is wobbly from pain meds on his crutches.

going back to bed for a while.

462 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:57:36am

BBL

464 blueraven  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:58:11am

re: #439 Killgore Trout

re: #439 Killgore Trout

I watched the coverage on all three cable networks at some point.

Chris Matthews went gaga over Condoleezza's speech
He is still talking about how great it was.

Rachel Maddow thought Ryan gave a good delivery of a well crafted speech, but did call him out on the facts.

They all praised Ann Romney and Rubio.

Even Lawrence O'Donnell praised most of the speeches.

As far as calling out the lies, and that is what they were, this was not just MSNBC.

465 Varek Raith  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:59:31am

MSNBC as bad as FoxNews.
Lofuckingl.

466 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 10:00:17am

re: #455 darthstar

Except if you look at the accuracy of the information on Fox vs MSNBC there's no comparison. Sure, MSNBC is left leaning, but they are factual and they aren't afraid to call out Democrats when they act stupid. Fox doesn't have that problem, because they simply ignore both fact and any straying from the RNC checklist of appropriate topics.

MSNBC may be marginally better in terms of factual accuracy but it's splitting hairs. Still not very good. I haven't had cable for years but from the clips I've seen posted here the reporting seems a silly and strange to me. I have no use for it.

467 Ghazicide  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 10:01:11am

re: #460 Dark_Falcon

The first is Chris Matthews being a asshole, the second bolded part turns out to have been wrong. The Janesville plant closed in 2009.

From the same link:

The report noted that "about 50" workers remained at the plant until May or June 2009 to complete outstanding orders.

Goldberg is clutching.

468 darthstar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 10:03:45am

Me, I'm off to the beach with the dogs as the fog has rolled back and the sun is out. Then it's off to drive the diesel X5 and maybe a Range Rover...(used...no need to spend 60K+ on a car).

469 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 10:09:01am

I passed this building just yesterday, and probably thought, as I had a million times before, that it needed to be used or torn down.

Large vacant buildings are a hazard, obviously.

[Link: www.kgw.com...]

In case you are wondering, it was a very large hotel that sat on one of the four corners of where I-5 crosses from Washington into Oregon (or vice versa). The other three corners have two more hotels and two nice restaurants.

470 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 10:11:08am

HOLY CRAP!!!
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

471 Mich-again  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 10:14:52am

re: #460 Dark_Falcon

The first is Chris Matthews being a asshole, the second bolded part turns out to have been wrong. The Janesville plant closed in 2009.

That' misleading and you know it. The plant ceased all significant production operations in December 2008 and any activities that carried into 2009 were very minor. When the large SUV production ended, the plant essentially closed even if the doors weren't bolted shut yet. The Janesville plant was very old and inefficient and out in the middle of nowhere. When the company investigated where to build the new GM sub-compact vehicles, the decision was made to revamp the Orion Township plant in MI and not Janesville WI, Wilmington DE, Pontiac MI or Spring Hill TE. If the Janesville plant could have offered a better business case for building that vehicle than Orion, than it would have been the plant to get revamped, but the numbers weren't there.

I would think that the candidates and voters who claim to be knowledgeable about how business works would understand that. But again, its willful ignorance and selective memory that drive their politics.

472 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 10:15:17am

Heh. Comments all saying what I am thinking right now: It was probably insured, and probably the source of the destruction was a match, and gee this happens right when the land is needed for the new bridge.

Also, everyone wanted it gone. Large vacant buildings are a nuisance.

473 OhNoBenghazi!  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 10:23:24am

re: #324 Decatur Deb

Gonna have to take the old bat out for a taco.

Now that's love baby,
Congratulations!!!

474 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 10:33:14am

The truth? C’mon, this is a political convention

Ultimately, convention speeches are about making the argument for your team. We should fully expect politicians to make their case using facts and figures that either tilt positive about their accomplishment — or negative about their opponents. As the fact checking business has blossomed in the news media, it has been increasingly hard for politicians to get away with such truth-shading without someone noticing.

Both political parties will stretch the truth if they believe it will advance their political interests. It’s been a rough campaign so far, but the GOP convention that just ended was strictly in the mainstream for such party celebrations.

475 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 10:33:14am

re: #456 Dark_Falcon

It's from an angle I hadn't seen before and its well composed. Not special, but a good photograph, and one taken from a moving helicopter. Thus I find it worthy of noting.

So I see we disagree about more than politics.

476 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 10:33:14am

re: #324 Decatur Deb

Gonna have to take the old bat out for a taco.

Break the bank. Spring for a taco and a churro.

477 blueraven  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 10:36:24am

re: #471 Mich-again

That' misleading and you know it. The plant ceased all significant production operations in December 2008 and any activities that carried into 2009 were very minor. When the large SUV production ended, the plant essentially closed even if the doors weren't bolted shut yet. The Janesville plant was very old and inefficient and out in the middle of nowhere. When the company investigated where to build the new GM sub-compact vehicles, the decision was made to revamp the Orion Township plant in MI and not Janesville WI, Wilmington DE, Pontiac MI or Spring Hill TE. If the Janesville plant could have offered a better business case for building that vehicle than Orion, than it would have been the plant to get revamped, but the numbers weren't there.

I would think that the candidates and voters who claim to be knowledgeable about how business works would understand that. But again, its willful ignorance and selective memory that drive their politics.

Mr Ryan knows damm well what he said. He was talking to people who dont keep up with every fact. He implied that Obama closed the plant.

And actually he knows better than most that what Obama said was true, that if the government had stood behind the plant it might have remained open.
He knows because he petitioned the Bush administration for government money, but did not get it.

Ryan is an adroit liar, I must admit.

478 blueraven  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 10:44:33am

re: #474 Killgore Trout

The truth? C’mon, this is a political convention

Delicious irony here considering all the pearl clutching over "misleading" Obama ads.
Meh...what's the problems with a little lying by politicians?

479 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 10:52:42am

re: #476 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Break the bank. Spring for a taco and a churro.

Nah. Married her because she's a cheap date.

(45yrs salary x .80)/16438 days=...

Wait--not a cheap date...

480 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 10:54:28am

re: #478 blueraven

Delicious irony here considering all the pearl clutching over "misleading" Obama ads.
Meh...what's the problems with a little lying by politicians?

The point is that we all know politicians lie. If you want to be well informed you shouldn't blindly believe everything your favored politician says in a speech or puts in an ad. They are expected to lie, you aren't supposed to really believe them. This is nothing new.

481 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 10:57:43am

re: #478 blueraven

Delicious irony here considering all the pearl clutching over "misleading" Obama ads.
Meh...what's the problems with a little lying by politicians?

Just reading the quote excerpted from that bilge convinces me the writer is too cut off from objective reality to have anything worth saying. Any article containing the words or argument "both sides" is just that - BS.

One side denies climate change. The other does not. One side denies evolution. The other does not. One side is in love with Ayn Rand economics. The other is not. One side is considering a return to the gold standard. The other is not. One side wants to deny abortions in almost all circumstances and even restrict birth control. The other does not. One side asks, who would you believe, me or your lying calendar? The other does not.

And that's all you need to know.

482 blueraven  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 11:04:46am

re: #480 Killgore Trout

The point is that we all know politicians lie. If you want to be well informed you shouldn't blindly believe everything your favored politician says in a speech or puts in an ad. They are expected to lie, you aren't supposed to really believe them. This is nothing new.

I find the whole article ridiculous coming from a "fact checker".

483 Lidanghazi  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 11:08:14am

re: #481 Interesting Times

One side denies climate change. The other does not. One side denies evolution. The other does not. One side is in love with Ayn Rand economics. The other is not. One side is considering a return to the gold standard. The other is not. One side wants to deny abortions in almost all circumstances and even restrict birth control. The other does not. One side asks, who would you believe, me or your lying calendar? The other does not.

And that's all you need to know.

Going further:

One side believes in a conspiracy where the UN will take over America and has codified that conspiracy into various state platforms. The other side does not. One side is arguing for nullification laws. The other side is not. One side has elected officials arguing that pregnancy from rape is rare, or that it's just another manner of conception. The other side does not. One side is actively working to disenfranchise voters. The other side is not.

Both sides DON'T do the same things. The choice couldn't be more obvious.

484 Kung Fughazi  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 11:51:44am

re: #481 Interesting Times

re: #483 Lidane

Your points are why I find it so amusing that long time conservatives and Republicans are now claiming to be independents. These people know their party is bugshit insane, but they lack the spine to acknowledge it.

It's not that the Democrats don't have their problems; they're not humping Teh Crazy's leg like the current GOP is.


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