The Myth of Obama the Socialist, Part III

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts
Politics • Views: 38,931

I have previously (here and here) argued that there exists a myth that President Obama is a big-spending socialist, calling it nothing short of an outright lie.

Summarizing the two previous articles, it is clear that federal spending, taxes and the deficit are all lower than what they were on the day President Obama took office:

Secondly, “the vast bulk of the debt is the result of policies enacted during the Bush administration coupled with automatic increases in federal spending and decreases in tax revenue triggered by the economic downturn.”

Thirdly, President Obama has seen a decrease in nondefense state and local spending since taking office:

However, there are still certain issues that need to be addressed, starting with the 2009 federal budget.

The 2009 Federal Budget
The 2009 federal budget is perhaps one of the most contentious issues when it comes to the myth of Obama as a socialist. Obama, allegedly, tripled the budget deficit, from $450 billion in 2008, to roughly $1.4 trillion in 2009. However, The CBO “released a projection in January 2009 that the deficit would reach $1.2 trillion in 2009, before the costs for any new economic stimulus plans or new legislation were factored in.”. This, of course, was before Obama became President. This is because the Federal fiscal year lasts from October 1 to September 30, and “when Obama was sworn into office, Bush had already submitted his 3.1 trillion dollar 2009 budget almost a year earlier”.

Some Republicans might counter, and ask what about the so-called stimulus, they will ask, with its $787 billion price tag? Or the omnibus fiscal-year 2009 appropriations bill? And how about Cash for Clunkers and Obama’s expansion of the children’s health insurance program? Didn’t these all boost spending in 2009?

The answer, as you would expect, is yes, it did add to the 2009 federal budget. By roughly four percent.

As the Ludwig von Mises Institute rightly points out, how exactly is Obama responsible for deficits that existed on the day he took office?
The 2009 federal budget does not belong to President Obama, he did not triple the deficit and what little he did add was a minuscule four percent.

Comparing Bush with Obama on Spending and the public sector
If we were to agree that President Obama is a stealth socialist, then President Bush was nothing short of an out-and-out Stalinist. If we examine the growth in federal outlays by various Presidents it is clear that the first year of the Obama administration did not increase spending - the opposite in fact.

Figures for the 2010 - 2013 budgets show that although President Obama has overseen an annual growth in federal spending by 1.4 percent over the course of his four years “no administration has reduced aggregate government spending as a precentage of GDP as much as Obama’s in forty years”.

To quote Rex Nutting, the Obama spending binge never happened.

An unsurprising result of this, is that public sector employment has fallen under President Obama. Under Bush, it grew. If “over the past 40 months, public sector employment had grown at the same pace as it did in President Bush’s first term, there would be 1.4 million additional people at work right now. That’d be enough to bring the unemployment rate down by nearly a full percentage point.

In the same graph, we can see that private sector growth was better during the first forty months of President Obama than President Bush. Considering the economic turmoil he inherited, it is quite remarkable.

The Size of Government
Due to the above mentioned facts, it is unsurprising to find that the number of government employees has fallen since Obama took office. Yet the scope of the downsizing might surprise many.

As a ratio of government officials to the population, there are now fewer government employees than in 1984 - “compared to our population, it hasn’t been this size since 1968.

Romney is not the messiah

Reagan never claimed that “government is not the solution to our problem. Government is the problem.” Rather, he argued, as the video above shows, that “In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem. Government is the problem.”

What Reagan was arguing against was, to quote Andrew Sullivan, “the culmination of years of liberal over-reach”. The problems the United States today face are not that of government over-reach, America remains the fifth most competitive country in the world and the most competitive of major countries. I have to agree with Andrew Sullivan when he writes thatthe problem is weak government when it came to regulating the financial sector; insolvent government because of a refusal to raise taxes even as spending has soared and revenues have collapsed; and hubristic government that tried to being freedom to every person on the planet through military occupation. And the answer is not doubling down on theology, but restoring limited but effective government in areas where only government can work”.

Yes, we can disagree on the role and nature of government, but this election is to a large extent about how to make sure the fragile recovery continues. Yes, the current recovery is slow, and unemployment high.

But the Romney tax plan wouldprovide large tax cuts to high-income households, and increase the tax burdens on middle- and/or lower-income taxpayers”.

In fact, it is even worse, “because Romney’s plan is being measured here against a “current policy” baseline (in which the Bush tax cuts are extended). If it were measured against a “current law” baseline, it would look even more regressive—and it would also fail to be revenue neutral”.

That does not sound like a sound model for recovery, but rather an ideological move without basis grounded in experience, as if the Bush years never happened; It’s a plan thatwould make poor families poorer, and more exposed to the risks of medical or financial calamity”.

To quote Bill Clinton: this matters to me.

It should matter to you as well.

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63 comments
1 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 11:50:55am

Wow, very nice effort. Will be posting on Facebook.

2 allegro  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 11:57:37am

Excellent! Will be sharing as well.

A small needed correction, I think:

Yes, the current recovery is slow, and employment high.

I think you want to say UNemployment high.

3 HAL2010  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 11:59:46am

re: #2 allegro

Fixed thanks!

4 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 12:08:30pm

I noticed a couple of small typos - easier for me to just fix them than spell them out, though... stand by.

5 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 12:13:24pm

OK, fixed some stuff. Reload the page to see the changes - you can edit it now if you see anything else.

6 aagcobb  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 12:21:03pm

Great post, kudos.

7 andres  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 12:22:33pm

Excellent series of posts, HAL.

8 HAL2010  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 12:23:45pm

re: #5 Charles Johnson

Cheers!
I'm ever so slightly medicated on cough medicine and paracetamol, I'm sure I will have missed a few things.

9 b_sharp  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 12:25:36pm

Great page.

This should encourage a few more people to do the same.

10 HAL2010  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 1:43:49pm

Copying from what I posted in the previous thread:

A nine point lead yesterday is a ten point lead today. It looks as if the Democrats told a more convincing story than the Republicans. Even Rasmussen, a fully-fledged GOP-leaning outfit, shows Obama's ratings going from 46 - 54 disapprove to 49 - 50 disapprove in the last three days - a big swing toward Obama of seven points.

Perhaps more significantly, Democratic interest in the campaign has soared. For the first time, those in the president’s party are following the campaign as closely as GOP voters. Interest in a campaign is typically considered a good indicator of turnout.

The more people listen to the GOP message, the less they like it.

11 b_sharp  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 1:44:45pm

Early OT:
If anybody here hasn't subscribed to LGF, I highly recommend you do so. The site is faster, uncluttered and it's much easier to see and navigate to the Pages.

It's only a single pizza (with or without pineapple) a month you do without. (You really don't need the salt anyway)

12 blueraven  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 1:46:25pm

re: #10 HAL2010

Copying from what I posted in the previous thread:

The more people listen to the GOP message, the less they like it.

Even ipsos tracking poll show a 4 point bump already and they are tracking over 7 days

13 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 1:47:46pm
14 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 1:49:48pm

re: #11 b_sharp

I second that one, I subscribed and never looked back.

15 b_sharp  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 1:52:54pm

For those who haven't subscribed, here is what my screen looks like.

LGF Without Ads

16 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 1:53:37pm

re: #15 b_sharp

For those who haven't subscribed, here is what my screen looks like.

LGF Without Ads

:D

17 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 1:54:45pm

September 08, 2012
Obama Expands Lead in Three Tracking Polls

Gallup: Obama 49%, Romney 45%.
Reuters/Ipsos: Obama 47%, Romney 43%.
Rasmussen: Obama 46%, Romney 44%.

Rasmussen?!?!?!?!11ty

18 Digital Display  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 1:55:20pm

re: #11 b_sharp

Early OT:
If anybody here hasn't subscribed to LGF, I highly recommend you do so. The site is faster, uncluttered and it's much easier to see and navigate to the Pages.

It's only a single pizza (with or without pineapple) a month you do without. (You really don't need the salt anyway)

I subscribe to LGF as it is my favorite blog ( It's been a long journey to get here). I guess everybody else has the ads turned off, I asked Charles not to.
I like poking around different ads. The solution of no ads and loading faster means nothing to me.. Just go out and buy a bad ass, faster than hell Computer and all is well. I love my monster box.

19 HAL2010  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 1:55:27pm

re: #16 Gus

Very nice. I'll have to seriously consider getting it.

20 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 1:56:44pm

re: #19 HAL2010

Very nice. I'll have to seriously consider getting it.

BTW, great page. Nice work.

21 HAL2010  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 2:00:03pm

re: #20 Gus

Cheers.
The thing is, all this information is out there, it's just difficult to summarize all of it. If you don't really know where to look, or only get your news from cable, I bet it can be quite difficult to be fully informed.

If this post could convince one person who is dithering, unsure or wouldn't vote Obama, to do so, I will be over the moon.

22 Decatur Deb  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 2:01:22pm

re: #17 Gus

September 08, 2012
Obama Expands Lead in Three Tracking Polls

Rasmussen?!?!?!?!11ty

There is a pattern of Rasmussen's early absurdities narrowing down as election day approaches, so that he comes in quite 'accurate' at the end. Just a statistical anomaly, I guess.

(Finished day 2 of the Habitat build, applying vinyl siding. It was a "Women Build' day, but cross-dressing was optional.)

[Link: www.habitat.org...]

23 Specialist  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 2:15:15pm

Y'r n dt, f y wnn knw why bm s Sclst y jst hv t wtch ths: htt ps : //w w w.ytb.cm/wtch?v=LmTLVwk

24 Varek Raith  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 2:17:07pm

re: #23 Specialist

You're an idiot, if you wanna know why Obama is a Socialist you just have to watch this:

[Embedded content]

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA WND.

25 Artist  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 2:18:11pm

re: #23 Specialist

Greetings hatchling. I see your first post here is to drop a turd in this thread. World Net Daily. Good job.

Can you even define Socialist?

26 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 2:18:20pm

re: #23 Specialist

It's been nice, but now we must bid you adieu.

27 Decatur Deb  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 2:18:25pm

re: #24 Varek Raith

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA WND.

Sshhh. We rarely get a guest from another dimension.

28 b_sharp  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 2:18:29pm

re: #23 Specialist

You're an idiot, if you wanna know why Obama is a Socialist you just have to watch this:

[Embedded content]

Seriously from WND? Seriously?

You seriously need to seek help. Seriously.

29 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 2:18:49pm

re: #26 Charles Johnson

It's been nice, but now we must bid you adieu.

Bummer. I was just about to get to know him. ;)

30 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 2:19:11pm

First words are an insult, followed by a WND video? Nope. Not gonna play that.

31 Decatur Deb  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 2:19:15pm

Awww. It came apart in the atmosphere.

32 b_sharp  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 2:19:35pm

I just love it when stand up comics visit LGF.

33 HAL2010  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 2:21:27pm

That's the first time I've been trolled like that. I feel slightly dirty, and not in the good way.

I've no idea how Charles must cope with all the shit he gets.

34 b_sharp  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 2:24:32pm

re: #33 HAL2010

That's the first time I've been trolled like that. I feel slightly dirty, and not in the good way.

I've no idea how Charles must cope with all the shit he gets.

Doing what he enjoys, programming and music, probably calms him down considerably.

35 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 2:29:51pm

re: #23 Specialist

Yes, "Specialist" indeed...in DERP.

They just registered today, just to dump that turd and get the stick.

Image: SpockFascinating.jpg

BUHBYE NOW

36 Joanne  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 2:30:26pm

re: #23 Specialist

I've read Mein Kampf so I'm apparently a Nazi.

I associate with black people so that makes me black?

SEIU is ACORN? SMH!

Referencing your own bullshit book as "proof"? Ugh.

I realize charts and graphs are tough readin' but try.

Nevermind, you're a dumbass, dumbass.

37 Aye Pod  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:19:44pm

re: #31 Decatur Deb

Awww. It came apart in the atmosphere.

Flaming wingnuts often burn up on entry.

38 RabbitMan  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:28:21pm

I saw this referred to on Facebook and had to make an account here to point out a fallacy I noticed.

I love that you used the Mises institute as a reference, but to very selectively choose data in order to strengthen your argument is misleading at best. This combined with the Andrew Sullivan quote lead the reader to believe that the Federal Gov't under President Obama's tenure has reduced spending. And in a slanted, very technical way you are indeed correct. *Technically* the budget decreased 1.8% from 2009-2010. On the other hand the Fed. Budget of 2008, the last year of Bush's tenure PRE-CRISIS, was $500+ Billion below that of 2009. That shows an increase of almost 20% from 2008-2009.

So yes, he negligibly reduced an already incredibly obnoxious CRISIS budget in his first year, and then proceeded to build on it as a baseline. We all already know Bush sucked, but then we're talking about Obama here, not Bush. He is nowhere near a communist, but to seek to invalidate legitimate grievances such as his administrations reckless spending is so not cool.

One last point: I looked up labor data on the U.S. Census website and found that Government employment actually increased between the Bushy Year of 2004 and Obama Years of '10-11. Major decreases in government employment occurred almost exclusively in the 90s under Clinton when he gutted the Department of Defense by nearly 500,000 employees.

39 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:42:31pm

re: #38 RabbitMan

He is nowhere near a communist, but to seek to invalidate legitimate grievances such as his administrations reckless spending is so not cool.

This is an assertion. Give an example of reckless spending. Spending on something that wasn't needed, that Obama encouraged.

40 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 6:39:50pm

re: #38 RabbitMan

I saw this referred to on Facebook and had to make an account here to point out a fallacy I noticed.

I love that you used the Mises institute as a reference, but to very selectively choose data in order to strengthen your argument is misleading at best. This combined with the Andrew Sullivan quote lead the reader to believe that the Federal Gov't under President Obama's tenure has reduced spending. And in a slanted, very technical way you are indeed correct.

Please elaborate on this technicality.

41 jytdog  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 7:12:06pm

Look I think the claim that Obama is a socialist is a lie and is stupid and false, but bad faith arguments don't help.

Why are you giving Obama "credit" for a reduction in state and local spending? Sorry but that seems to me the kind of bad faith statisticking that just pisses people off - and most importantly, makes them just tune out - when they figure it out.

And pointing to overall "Government employment" is bad faith the same way. State and local may have fallen, not federal - numbers are here:
[Link: www.opm.gov...]

I would love a post that was solid on this issue. This kind of stuff is just BS in the Harry Frankfurt defintion - "speech intended to persuade, without regard for truth." Too much of that, all over the place.

42 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 7:14:14pm

re: #41 jytdog

In what way is it bad faith? State and local have fallen partially in result to decreased federal spending, by the way, so it's not really serving your point well there.

You seem to be missing the forest for the trees.

43 jytdog  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 7:25:33pm

I argue with folks on the right all the time. This is the kind of data you can shoot holes in, in a heartbeat. State and local spending and employment fell because of the crash -- no property taxes, much less spending overall so less retail tax too. It is a no-brainer. There is no value to including that data - its only discrediting like you have no idea what how government works and like you are trying to hide the forest with irrelevant trees. It's to Obama's credit that he kept a lot of state and local people employed (that the numbers weren't even lower) by working with Congress to have a bunch of the stimulus directed to the states to keep schools open and firehouses staffed.
[Link: www.politicsdaily.com...]

One of his great "invisible" accomplishments.

Another thing I struggle with is attributing all federal spending to POTUS. Spending is Congress+POTUS -- always. Never just POTUS. Pretending like it just confuses things and actually feeds the idiot fire on the other side.

44 jytdog  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 7:28:31pm

sorry, meant to say "pretending like it is, just confuses the issue..."

45 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 7:31:54pm

re: #43 jytdog

I argue with folks on the right all the time. This is the kind of data you can shoot holes in, in a heartbeat. State and local spending and employment fell because of the crash -- no property taxes, much less spending overall so less retail tax too. It is a no-brainer....

It's not information that's easy to poke holes in. It's information, especially pertinent to destroying the narrative of Big Spending Socialist Obama.

46 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 7:32:35pm

re: #43 jytdog

I argue with folks on the right all the time. This is the kind of data you can shoot holes in, in a heartbeat. State and local spending and employment fell because of the crash -- no property taxes, much less spending overall so less retail tax too.

And less federal outlay. A lot of the stimulus went directly to the states.

It is a no-brainer. There is no value to including that data - its only discrediting like you have no idea what how government works and like you are trying to hide the forest with irrelevant trees.

It's not irrelevant. you're missing the point: Obama is accused of overseeing growth in the government. He didn't. A lot of government shrank. Some spending increased, but government shrank.

It's to Obama's credit that he kept a lot of state and local people employed (that the numbers weren't even lower) by working with Congress to have a bunch of the stimulus directed to the states to keep schools open and firehouses staffed.

One of his great "invisible" accomplishments.

Yeah, um, that's part of the point.

Another thing I struggle with is attributing all federal spending to POTUS. Spending is Congress+POTUS -- always. Never just POTUS. Pretending like it just confuses things and actually feeds the idiot fire on the other side.

I think you're just getting this backwards. It's like you didn't read the post, but some funhouse version of it.

Obama has not engaged in reckless spending.

47 jytdog  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 7:33:59pm

No its not, its meaningless BS. State and local gov't employment are not determined by the President. Saying the opposite is as bad as being a birther (I will ignore the facts and just believe whatever I want to!).

48 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 7:41:06pm

re: #47 jytdog

No its not, its meaningless BS. State and local gov't employment are not determined by the President.

State and local government are not directly controlled by the POTUS, but the POTUS can influence state and local government spending.

It's pretty easy to poke holes in this line of reasoning.

So where is all the increases in spending driven by Obama that are covered by the reductions in other areas?

49 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 7:42:36pm

re: #47 jytdog

No its not, its meaningless BS. State and local gov't employment are not determined by the President.

They are affected by the president, to the extent any spending is-- you know this, since you cited the stimulus going to states, and hailed it as a good thing.

Remember?

Saying the opposite is as bad as being a birther (I will ignore the facts and just believe whatever I want to!).

You suck at making an argument. Birtherism is the belief, with no reason whatsoever, that Obama wasn't born in Hawaii. What we're talking about here is the assertion that Obama has not presided over a large expansion of government. He hasn't.

Calm the hell down.

50 jytdog  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 7:46:30pm

You people!! The arguments about Obama being a socialist are driven by a "big lie" strategy on the right -- repeat it repeat it repeat it. There are primarily two buckets of "evidence" they use:

1) the growth of the reach (not so much the size or the spending) of the fed gov't (taking over GM; forceful bailout of the banks, healthcare reform especially the individual mandate)

2) several statements by Obama taken out of content and pressed to this end.. the very old one about "spread the wealth around" from the back in the campaign, to the more recent "you didn't build that"

crappy data is not going to help address either.

51 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 7:47:18pm

re: #50 jytdog

1) the growth of the reach (not so much the size or the spending) of the fed gov't (taking over GM; forceful bailout of the banks, healthcare reform especially the individual mandate)

There wasn't a 'forceful' bailout of the banks.

crappy data is not going to help address either.

Can you actually engage with the argument I made, or is that just beyond you?

52 jytdog  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 7:51:16pm

It is a pure BS assertion to give Obama "credit" for the decrease in state and local employment. It is indeed as much BS as the birther argument. Both are unfactual, faith-based statements.

If anything Obama, together with Congress, prevented it from being a more extreme decrease.

Neither POTUS nor Congress should have much of anything at all to do with state and local employment levels during normal times.

But giving him credit either way is nuts. And trying to directly tie Obama to state and local employment levels only feeds the belief on the other side in Obama's Terrible Socialist Power.

53 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 7:52:10pm

Argumentum ad fecum

54 jytdog  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 7:55:52pm

Um there the bailout was quite forceful. Banks were forced to take bailout money even though they didn't want it. Widely reported on NPR, NY Times, and the amazing This American Life series, and many many books. Money stopped flowing between banks b/c none of them knew how bad the other guys were in the hole with derivatives etc. Paulsen called the CEOs of the banks to DC on Oct 13 2008 and made them agree to take money in front of each other, so they would all know that they all had capital. It was real high stakes poker.

55 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 8:07:29pm

re: #52 jytdog

It is a pure BS assertion to give Obama "credit" for the decrease in state and local employment. It is indeed as much BS as the birther argument. Both are unfactual, faith-based statements.

If anything Obama, together with Congress, prevented it from being a more extreme decrease.

Yes. This is not counter to the point being made. What don't you understand about this?

But giving him credit either way is nuts. And trying to directly tie Obama to state and local employment levels only feeds the belief on the other side in Obama's Terrible Socialist Power.

Yet you acknowledge the tie, as above.

56 jytdog  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 8:07:41pm

The best way to deal with attacks on Obama directed him to being a "socialist"

1) Ask the person what they mean by that term, anyway. Things will generally fall apart here for the other person pretty quickly.

2) Most of the expansion of federal power is directly related to the crash. Beginning with W and continuing into Obama's administration, both Rs and Ds believed that we were heading for a depression and strong gov't action was needed to prevent that. Most mainstream economists believe we did head off a depression. Obama administration has been unwinding all the deals that were made, and reeling back reach of gov't into the economy with respect to the bailout.

3) Yes, there was a big expansion of fed power into the economy with healthcare reform. Obama said he was going to do this, and did it. Many folks on the left wanted real socialist healthcare reform -- single payer. Reform didn't get anywhere near that; Obama did not push for that. In any case legislation was drafted by Congress not Obama. He let Congress shape it -- learned lesson from "HIllarycare" where she presented Congress with the bill already written which was a disaster.

4) Taxation - we have always had a progressive income tax. Progressive income tax by definition is "spreading wealth around." It is true that Obama wants to make it more progressive, within reason.

57 jytdog  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 8:58:41pm

re: #55 Obdicut

Hi Obdicut

I understand the post is trying to make an argument that "Obama is not a socialist because total government employment fell during his presidency."

I am saying that this argument is a) stupid and b) self-destructive. It is stupid because it mashes together local/state/federal employment. It is self-destructive because (i) it is stupid and destroys credibility and (ii) it perpetuates the fantasy that any president has the ability by himself to dramatically change the number of local and state government employees, much less the number of federal government employees. And the "obama is a socialist" myth belief #1 is that Obama is very interested in expanding the reach of the Executive Branch into Every Aspect of American Life.

You have not engaged in my arguments at all.

58 Kronocide  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 9:41:37pm

This post is like Wingnut chum on Facebook.

59 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 3:37:00am

re: #57 jytdog

You're still not actually addressing what I'm saying.

how can you, in one breath, say that Obama did something very good in funneling money to the states with the stimulus, and then say that he had no effect on state and local employment and it's bullshit to cite those statistics?

Furthermore, you're really still not getting the overall point. Obama, I think, would have liked to preside over an expansion of government in many areas. We need spending on clean energy, infrastructure, etc, we needed it even more badly during the recession. We still need it. And that's not socialism, either.

But the reality is that Obama has limited power, and so had to compromise constantly with the nutbags in the GOP, and so we wound up with all sorts of spending getting slashed. Moreover, most of the real spending items are inherited-- and health care reform, while it is an expansion of government power in a way, is also slated to save money, not increase spending.

60 SidewaysQuark  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:37:13am

It won't faze conservatives. They always have some convoluted reason as to why these aren't "the real numbers".

61 jytdog  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 3:54:43pm

re: #59 Obdicut

I did not say that "Obama did something very good in funneling money to the states. I said - repeatedly, that Obama+Congress did a good thing in doing that. Why are you just ignoring what I am actually writing?

I don't think Obama would like to preside over an expansion per se. He says, relentlessly, that government needs to be leaner, more responsive, and more transparent. And the government needs to do what it has traditionally done - namely take care of infrastructure so that the entrepreneurs can indeed build things. That is not expansionist talk. It is quite middle of the road.

The post tried to show a bunch of numbers that Obama has not massively grown the "government" very broadly speaking. I do hear you, and I think that is a great point to try to make. Doing it the way the post did, is stupid and self-destructive. That is the point I am trying to make. You don't want to hear me, I think.

62 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 4:15:09pm

re: #61 jytdog

I did not say that "Obama did something very good in funneling money to the states. I said - repeatedly, that Obama+Congress did a good thing in doing that. Why are you just ignoring what I am actually writing?

I'm not. You're giving credit to them both, but that means you're giving credit to Obama as well. So, you've laid out a way that federal spending impacts state and local employment numbers.

I don't think Obama would like to preside over an expansion per se. He says, relentlessly, that government needs to be leaner, more responsive, and more transparent. And the government needs to do what it has traditionally done - namely take care of infrastructure so that the entrepreneurs can indeed build things. That is not expansionist talk. It is quite middle of the road.

It would be middle of the road if we didn't have to rebuild the whole energy grid and do a manhattan-project style project for clean energy.

The post tried to show a bunch of numbers that Obama has not massively grown the "government" very broadly speaking. I do hear you, and I think that is a great point to try to make. Doing it the way the post did, is stupid and self-destructive. That is the point I am trying to make. You don't want to hear me, I think.

I hear you, I think you're really, really wrong. The legend is that these jobs have grown hugely under Obama. Even if you just pay attention to the federal, that's a total freaking falsehood.

You''re being a puritopian for no purpose.

63 jytdog  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 4:35:16pm

Thanks for really dialoging now.

I think it is wrong and misleading to give one party credit for something that it takes two to achieve. That is part of my point.

I hear you that you think I am wrong. I am not being a puritopian. I started all this by saying that I argue with people on the right all the time, and the drop in state and local gov't is a dog that does not hunt. Especially not when the raw numbers in the fed govt have gone up. Don't look at the man behind the curtain! That's all that says.

The chart about percentages is pretty good - the one that shows that the percentage of fed employees/total population has gone down. That's a pretty good talking point.

I want Obama to win but a bad argument is a bad argument no matter who gives it.


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