Video: Rachel Maddow on Romney’s Incessant Lying

The campaign of many Big Lies
Politics • Views: 39,823

Rachel Maddow does an excellent job in this segment of laying out the facts about Mitt Romney’s unprecedented use of deliberate dishonesty as a political tool — even after the dishonesty is exposed. There’s nothing new about politicians lying, but I’d argue that there is something new about the way Romney’s doing it; there’s a deep, calculated cynicism evident in the way he incessantly lies long after the lies are debunked. He’s aware that the Fox News-indoctrinated right wing base simply doesn’t care whether he’s telling the truth, as long as it feeds their anti-Obama rage addiction.

In fact, this element of the Republican Party has been so debased that they actually enjoy a smear more when they know it’s a lie, because they fantasize that they’re getting under liberals’ skins. That’s far more important to a wingnut than mere honesty.

It’s disturbing that the mainstream media haven’t turned this deliberate dishonesty into a bigger story. By constantly pushing the limits of acceptability, the Romney campaign seems to have inured the media to his lies.

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385 comments
1 engineer cat  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:02:11pm

republicans say obama wants to make the united states more like france

democrats say mitt wants to make the united states more like costa rica

which one would you choose?

2 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:03:06pm

The press hasn't reported more on it because the press is still invested in keeping this a close race all the way to Election Day. Not to mention that, for some like CNN, the need to maintain "balance" has killed any objective reporting.

3 engineer cat  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:05:35pm

Republican Analysts Reject 2008 Election Results As "Skewed"

result with more democrats than republicans "not a fair sampling"

4 Sophist, Gingham Style  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:07:39pm

Remember, liberals are the moral relativists.

5 Kragar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:12:00pm

Magic 8 ball gives more consistent answers than Mitt Romney.

6 nines09  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:13:55pm

When a presidential candidate and an entire political party can proudly acclaim that they do not "fact check" that should be all you need to know. Unless of course, you are an addled sycophant as much of the base and party seems to be.

7 HappyWarrior  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:17:49pm

re: #3 engineer cat

Republican Analysts Reject 2008 Election Results As "Skewed"

result with more democrats than republicans "not a fair sampling"

There are more registered Democrats than Republicans in this country right? That's my reaction to those who complain polls are skewed.

8 researchok  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:19:03pm

I believe CJ is right to note both parties are engaging in what is deliberate deceit this campaign.

I would add what distinguishes the two campaigns is in how the candidates address the pathology of deliberate deceit.

Obama is on record as to admitting his campaign has gone too far on occasion and he has apologized for it.

Romney has yet to admit to the deceit much less apologize.

Therein lies the problem.

Whether or not you agree with Obama, he is clearly more ethical.

Whether or not you agree with Romney, he is clearly less ethical.

Forget the politics- what kind of man would you want as president?

9 HappyWarrior  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:21:23pm

re: #8 researchok

I believe CJ is right to note both parties are engaging in what is deliberate deceit this campaign.

I would add what distinguishes the two campaigns is in how the candidates address the pathology of deliberate deceit.

Obama is on record as to admitting his campaign has gone too far on occasion and he has apologized for it.

Romney has yet to admit to the deceit much less apologize.

Therein lies the problem.

Whether or not you agree with Obama, he is clearly more ethical.

Whether or not you agree with Romney, he is clearly less ethical.

Forget the politics- what kind of man would you want as president?

That goes back to leadership in general, and Obama is clearly a leader while Romney isn't.

10 wrenchwench  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:22:29pm

re: #8 researchok

I believe CJ is right to note both parties are engaging in what is deliberate deceit this campaign.

Wait, what? You mean this?

There’s nothing new about politicians lying

That doesn't say what you said.

11 engineer cat  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:26:17pm

re: #8 researchok

Forget the politics- what kind of man would you want as president?

-> leads maraudering warriors on horseback to conquer vast territories
-> executes traitors and captives ruthlessly after horrific tortures
-> pillages many peaceful towns and distributes the booty to his followers
-> has a vast collection of wives and concubines to help spread his seed far and wide throughout the land

12 makeitstop  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:26:59pm

re: #10 wrenchwench

Wait, what? You mean this?

That doesn't say what you said.

I didn't go back and re-read read the post, but I was wondering where the MBF came from. I was pretty sure I didn't see her in the original post.

13 Mich-again  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:27:11pm

The best thing I can say about Mitt is that he isn't a good liar but he thinks he is.

14 AK-47%  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:27:16pm

re: #9 HappyWarrior

That goes back to leadership in general, and Romney is clearly a rich white guy while Obama isn't.

15 erik_t  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:28:30pm

re: #14 AK-47%

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. Romney is such a fantastic leader that he can't get his own crowd to chant his own name at his own campaign event.

He's running for President, for Pete's sake.

16 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:29:17pm

re: #11 engineer cat

-> leads maraudering warriors on horseback to conquer vast territories
-> executes traitors and captives ruthlessly after horrific tortures
-> pillages many peaceful towns and distributes the booty to his followers
-> has a vast collection of wives and concubines to help spread his seed far and wide throughout the land

Genghis Khan for president!

17 wrenchwench  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:29:22pm

re: #12 makeitstop

I didn't go back and re-read read the post, but I was wondering where the MBF came from. I was pretty sure I didn't see her in the original post.

Her?

18 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:30:10pm

re: #17 wrenchwench

Her?

OH GOD, MY EYES!!

19 makeitstop  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:34:06pm

re: #17 wrenchwench

Her?

Heh. Another pretty little mental image permanently changed. :)

20 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:35:20pm

re: #17 wrenchwench

Her?

Like a delicate flower.

21 wrenchwench  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:36:46pm

re: #19 makeitstop

Heh. Another pretty little mental image permanently changed. :)

That's the magic at work!

Now I have to get to work...

22 researchok  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:42:00pm

re: #10 wrenchwench

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

23 JamesWI  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:42:26pm

I remember saying pretty much everything in this opinion piece the very night it was reported that Romney was announcing Ryan as his VP pick (that is, I was saying it in-between fits of gleeful laughter over the prospect of Paul Ryan as his VP pick)....Shifting the focus from "We need to get rid of (the relatively unpopular) Obamacare!" to "We need to radically change (the very popular) Medicare!" Brilliant strategy.

24 researchok  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:44:14pm

re: #11 engineer cat

I almost missed that.

Which would have been a shame.

25 A Mom Anon  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:58:55pm

re: #23 JamesWI

I'm more and more convinced that a person doesn't really have to be all that bright to do well in "bidness". I don't mean the people who really work on their own idea,bring it forth and make it work,no I mean the people who have never spent a day having to so much as think hard,let alone work hard.I mean the CEO/Hedge Fund guy/Corporate Merger dude,the guy who probably sleeps in a shirt and tie. I have yet to meet one(and I used to be a "corporate wife",so I've met these assholes,more than a few)who was anywhere close to as smart as he thought he was.

So it's not a big surprise that the Romney campaign is stuck on stupid. Government isn't a "bidness",until they figure that out,they're going to look like flippin' morons. Stupid is as stupid does.

26 dragonath  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 1:59:18pm

re: #23 JamesWI

I mistakenly clicked on a Jennifer Rubin link. Her caricature makes her look like a rhesus monkey.

27 AK-47%  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:03:39pm

re: #25 A Mom Anon

Business is all about making money. People who can narrow their focus and keep their eye on the bottom line profits can do quite well at it. Government is not about short-term profits for a few, it is about generating long-term benefits for everyone.

28 prairiefire  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:11:51pm

re: #26 dragonath

I mistakenly clicked on a Jennifer Rubin link. Her caricature makes her look like a rhesus monkey.

She seems very dismissive of the uneducated class. An annoying person.

29 Sophist, Gingham Style  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:12:49pm

David Horowitz is a stupid, stupid man:

“Part of the racism of our society is if you’re black you can get away with murder,” Horowitz concludes.

...

...how can you be this oblivious?

30 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:13:58pm

re: #16 Targetpractice

Genghis Khan for president!

Too late, the Field Museum of Natural History's big Genghis Khan exhibit ended on Sept. 3rd.

31 JamesWI  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:16:03pm

re: #29 SophistFCD

David Horowitz is a stupid, stupid man:

...

...how can you be this oblivious?

Our prisons are filled to the brim with black people who got away with.....wait, what?

32 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:17:46pm

re: #29 SophistFCD

David Horowitz is a stupid, stupid man:

...

...how can you be this oblivious?

His reason for thinking that goes back to the murder of Betty van Patten, an accountant whom the Black Panthers in Oakland (the original Panthers, not the ugly echo of them that inspires so much right wing wailing) hired on his recommendation but then almost certainly murdered when she got too close to the misappropriation of funds for social programs the Panthers were running. The incident scarred Horowitz badly, and ultimately caused him to leave the left.

33 makeitstop  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:20:43pm

re: #29 SophistFCD

David Horowitz is a stupid, stupid man:

...

...how can you be this oblivious?

I'm convinced that David Horowitz waved bye-bye to his sanity some time ago.

34 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:21:52pm

re: #32 Dark_Falcon

The incident scarred Horowitz badly, and ultimately caused him to leave the left.

I'd say it caused him to abandon the wingnut left for the wingnut right.

35 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:22:21pm

re: #33 makeitstop

I'm convinced that David Horowitz waved bye-bye to his sanity some time ago.

As am I. His site went sharply downhill in 2008 and by mid-2009 was unreadable.

36 HappyWarrior  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:23:10pm

re: #34 Someone Please Beam Me Up!

I'd say it caused him to abandon the wingnut left for the wingnut right.

Yep he went from being one kind of extremist nutjob to another kind. Horowitz would be the same obnoxious asshole he is today if he had remained a far leftist. It's just who he is.

37 DisturbedEma  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:24:07pm

I guess I am not that jaded after all, I still want people to tell me the truth, even if it is bad, especially if it is bad. . .no wonder no one in my income bracket has kids who want to be president- that and it would make our efforts to raise them to be honest people a handicap

38 DisturbedEma  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:24:58pm

re: #37 DisturbedEma

The income bracket is about the cost of running. . .sorry having a really really bad day

39 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:25:09pm

re: #8 researchok

I believe CJ is right to note both parties are engaging in what is deliberate deceit this campaign.

I would add what distinguishes the two campaigns is in how the candidates address the pathology of deliberate deceit.

Obama is on record as to admitting his campaign has gone too far on occasion and he has apologized for it.

Romney has yet to admit to the deceit much less apologize.

Therein lies the problem.

Whether or not you agree with Obama, he is clearly more ethical.

Whether or not you agree with Romney, he is clearly less ethical.

Forget the politics- what kind of man would you want as president?

Truth and ethics first, party a distant second, or third or...

40 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:26:36pm

re: #34 Someone Please Beam Me Up!

I'd say it caused him to abandon the wingnut left for the wingnut right.

No, that came later. Up until the final year of George W. Bush's presidency he stayed sane, but Obama's nomination set something off in his mind. If I had to guess, I'd say it was Obama's (over-hyped) connection to William Ayers, a fellow 60's radical who went much further than Horowitz (going all the way into terrorism) and who has never repented so going. Based on that, Horowitz wrongly decided that Obama is a grave threat to America.

41 DisturbedEma  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:28:23pm

re: #39 Daniel Ballard

whether he was seen as ready for the office or not, I think he has done as well as he could and I'm sorry I doubted him and I will vote for him.

42 HappyWarrior  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:28:37pm

re: #40 Dark_Falcon

No, that came later. Up until the final year of George W. Bush's presidency he stayed sane, but Obama's nomination set something off in his mind. If I had to guess, I'd say it was Obama's (over-hyped) connection to William Ayers, a fellow 60's radical who went much further than Horowitz (going all the way into terrorism) and who has never repented so going. Based on that, Horowitz wrongly decided that Obama is a grave threat to America.

He was being an apologist for white supremacist Jared Taylor early on in the Bush years, so I disagree that he was sane until 2008.

43 Kragar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:29:18pm

re: #29 SophistFCD

David Horowitz is a stupid, stupid man:

...

...how can you be this oblivious?

Years of practice.

44 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:30:17pm
It's disturbing that the mainstream media haven't turned this deliberate dishonesty into a bigger story. By constantly pushing the limits of acceptability, the Romney campaign seems to have inured the media to his lies.

Despite the occasional lip service given to preferentially reporting factually correct information rather than false balance, it's still largely the case that reporters prize "objectivity" as some sort of virtue. NPR's Mara Liasson is a prime example - she'll uncritically dignify just about any bullshit as long as she can lead into it with, "but some see it differently" or point out that the bullshit in question "resonates with many."

45 HappyWarrior  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:30:33pm

What I love about Horowitz is he was further left than Obama and most of us have ever been but he had his little conversion and now deems anyone even slightly left of center a Marxist. I also really resent his attacks on academia too. Oh and Horowitz's claims about teachers unions and Arabic in school. I don't think I need to explain how stupid it was to claim that teachers unions are terrorist sympathizers or that teaching kids Arabic in public schools is helping Jihadis.

46 DisturbedEma  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:31:57pm

"we don’t shut people up, when we have channels on television there is more than one viewpoint, we don’t set out to destroy the character of people."

gag

47 simoom  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:32:35pm

Sounds like he's got another Hannity booking in his future:

48 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:33:24pm

re: #47 simoom

49 HappyWarrior  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:34:13pm

re: #47 simoom

Sounds like he's got another Hannity booking in his future:

[Embedded content]

Doesn't he have to go crap his pants to avoid military service?

50 engineer cat  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:35:10pm

set out to destroy the character of people

please protect me from the liberals with their sinful tolerance and compassion!

51 HappyWarrior  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:36:36pm

re: #50 engineer cat

set out to destroy the character of people

please protect me from the liberals with their sinful tolerance and compassion!

Well Glenn Beck did say empathy was something Hitler did. Because you know the first thing you think of with the Third Reich is how empathetic Hitler was with people of other cultural backgrounds. I love it though. We're PC multicultural freaks one minute and the next we're tyrannical Nazis. Pick a fucking narrative damn it.

52 MittDoesNotCompute  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:37:05pm

re: #17 wrenchwench

Her?

re: #18 Targetpractice

OH GOD, MY EYES!!

Image: what-has-been-seen-cannot-be-unseen.jpg

53 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:39:16pm

re: #45 HappyWarrior

What I love about Horowitz is he was further left than Obama and most of us have ever been but he had his little conversion and now deems anyone even slightly left of center a Marxist. I also really resent his attacks on academia too.

If there were ever a case of intellectual bankruptcy, Horowitz would have to file Chapter 7... no assets after all... ;)

54 HappyWarrior  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:40:51pm

re: #53 William Barnett-Lewis

If there were ever a case of intellectual bankruptcy, Horowitz would have to file Chapter 7... no assets after all... ;)

Snap. But yeah. Really the guy shows why convert's zeal isn't limited to religious converts.

55 MittDoesNotCompute  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:42:09pm

re: #31 JamesWI

Our prisons are filled to the brim with black people who got away with.....wait, what?

Never mind those inconvenient facts...

56 BongCrodny  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:51:59pm

re: #47 simoom

Sounds like he's got another Hannity booking in his future:

[Embedded content]

Lyrically speaking, that tweet is better than anything else Ted Nugent ever wrote

57 MittDoesNotCompute  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:53:04pm

re: #53 William Barnett-Lewis

If there were ever a case of intellectual bankruptcy, Horowitz would have to file Chapter 7... no assets after all... ;)

Sure he does...his head's so far up his assets, he can give himself a colonoscopy.

58 nines09  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:53:34pm

re: #47 simoom

Sounds like he's got another Hannity booking in his future:

[Embedded content]

Who could possibly not admit? Gee. Let me think. Umm. Someone with at least half a brain? Toad.

59 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:54:07pm

OT. Ugh. Learning curve! Been using an MX Revolution mouse for over 5 years. Just got the new MX Performance. It's like a pair of new shoes!

60 darthstar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:56:03pm

Two men and a baby...in all fairness, the first baby's name is Boehner.


61 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:56:13pm

re: #52 Gert Fröbe

re: #18 Targetpractice

Image: what-has-been-seen-cannot-be-unseen.jpg

Please send that to Harmony Gold.

62 researchok  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:56:36pm

Does the MX Performance mouse means you yell at the screen less?

63 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:57:45pm

re: #60 darthstar

Two men and a baby...in all fairness, the first baby's name is Boehner.

[Embedded content]

Proving nothing. Both men have proven to be good husbands and fathers, this is about who will make a better president.

64 wrenchwench  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:58:05pm

re: #22 researchok

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

This:

There’s nothing new about politicians lying

is not the same as this:

I believe CJ is right to note both parties are engaging in what is deliberate deceit this campaign.

If you were referring to something else, then I don't understand what you were trying to say.

65 MittDoesNotCompute  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:59:01pm

re: #60 darthstar

Two men and a baby...in all fairness, the first baby's name is Boehner.

[Embedded content]

So, it is true...animals and small children can sense evil!

///

66 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:59:12pm
67 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 2:59:12pm

re: #63 Dark_Falcon

Proving nothing. Both men have proven to be good husbands and fathers, this is about who will make a better president.

What? Huh? Sorry, I was busy getting an insulin injection after the second picture.

//

68 Kragar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:00:24pm
69 darthstar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:00:26pm

re: #63 Dark_Falcon

Proving nothing. Both men have proven to be good husbands and fathers, this is about who will make a better president.

I thought it was just telling that Mitt Romney holds a baby like Jim Fowler (from Mutual Of Omaha's Wild Kingdom) when he's wrestling an anaconda.

70 A Mom Anon  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:02:11pm

re: #67 Targetpractice

As most Moms can tell you though,the calmer and more pleasant an adult is the more little ones can relax around them. Though to be fair,the first child may have been tired and in need of some quiet time. Little kids get overwhelmed sometimes in noisy groups. But still,a calm and secure adult can have a calming effect on babies.

71 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:03:22pm

re: #61 Dark_Falcon

Please send that to Harmony Gold.

If I sent anything to Harmony Gold, it would be a "Robotech" transcript wrapped around a dead fish.

72 Kragar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:05:27pm

re: #71 Targetpractice

If I sent anything to Harmony Gold, it would be a "Robotech" transcript wrapped around a dead fish.

I heard the music when you said Robotech. I swear to god it just started playing in my head.

Bastard.

73 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:06:50pm

re: #72 Kragar

I heard the music when you said Robotech. I swear to god it just started playing in my head.

Bastard.

There are worse things to have playing in your head, believe me.

74 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:08:05pm

re: #62 researchok

Does the MX Performance mouse means you yell at the screen less?

Not yet.

75 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:08:27pm

re: #71 Targetpractice

If I sent anything to Harmony Gold, it would be a "Robotech" transcript wrapped around a dead fish.

Works for me. My comment was a reference to FASA (the original producer of Battletech) and its legal fight with Harmony Gold. There are rumors that new Robotech miniatures may be released in Battletech scale and the idea of using them as representations of the "Unseen" has triggered some vitrolic exchanges.

76 wrenchwench  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:09:21pm
77 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:10:59pm

re: #75 Dark_Falcon

Works for me. My comment was a reference to FASA (the original producer of Battletech) and its legal fight with Harmony Gold. There are rumors that new Robotech miniatures may be released in Battletech scale and the idea of using them as representations of the "Unseen" has triggered some vitrolic exchanges.

Harmony Gold's a blight on the anime scene. An awesome series and its successors have been kept off US shores because HG gets its knickers in a bunch whenever somebody talks about importing the series.

78 elizajane  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:11:02pm

The new strategy, in exemplary Karl Rove style, is to turn this around and have Mitt claim that it's Obama who is the enormous liar. Have you noticed that he's been saying this in interviews, including that the thing he is most worried about in the debates is that Obama will lie? He's not just spouting steam, this is part of a larger plan being rolled out today:

POLITICO: "Romney to 'Fact Check' Obama in Debate

Mitt Romney plans to turn himself into a one-man truth squad during the first presidential debate next week, casting President Barack Obama as someone who can’t be trusted to stick to the facts or keep his promises.

Top Republicans are telegraphing Romney’s hard-line strategy for his faceoff with Obama, according to Mike Allen’s Playbook in POLITICO on Thursday. The debate plan comes during a presidential cycle where media fact-checkers have held a high profile and where an earlier effort by Democrats to cast GOP vice presidential nominee Paul Ryan as untrustworthy got results.

[Link: www.politico.com...]

But the real give-away on this as a planned strategy is Karl Rove's editorial on the matter in yesterday's Wall Street Journal:

"Obama's Biggest Opponant is the Truth"

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

Why, it's almost like putting a chicken-hawk up against a decorated war hero and attacking the hero for being a chicken! It could never be done!
Oh, wait.

79 researchok  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:11:37pm

re: #64 wrenchwench

Apologies for not being more clear.

CJ made the (correct) remark when he said, 'politicians lie'. He did not distinguish between the parties.

My remarks directed at how politicians respond to the lies. I was not commenting on or referring to which campaign has been more or less truthful.

What is significant is how the parties and their leaders respond to campaign excesses.

Obama has been far more ethical than Romney in that regard- he admitted to and apologized for his parties excesses. He's the boss and he takes responsibility for what has been said on his behalf. That in my mind, marks a leader.

Mitt Romney has a made a point of standing by what he knows are falsehoods promulgated bu his campaign. That is very unethical and at best shows poor leadership (and perhaps how easily he can be manipulated) and at worst, a callous disregard for for the truth if it stands in his way.

That was the point I was trying to make.

80 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:13:13pm

re: #78 elizajane

The new strategy, in exemplary Karl Rove style, is to turn this around and have Mitt claim that it's Obama who is the enormous liar. Have you noticed that he's been saying this in interviews, including that the thing he is most worried about in the debates is that Obama will lie? He's not just spouting steam, this is part of a larger plan being rolled out today:

POLITICO: "Romney to 'Fact Check' Obama in Debate

[Link: www.politico.com...]

But the real give-away on this as a planned strategy is Karl Rove's editorial on the matter in yesterday's Wall Street Journal:

"Obama's Biggest Opponant is the Truth"

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

Why, it's almost like putting a chicken-hawk up against a decorated war hero and attacking the hero for being a chicken! It could never be done!
Oh, wait.

One "fact" he can't check after today is that Obama's job record is a net negative:

New Jobs Numbers Put Obama In Net Job Growth Territory

Revised jobs numbers released Thursday found that 386,000 more jobs were created since 2011 than the government had previously reported — a figure that means more jobs have been created than lost on balance during President Obama’s first term.

That politically sensitive threshold has been at the center of the presidential debate. While it has little economic relevance, its political significance has been substantial, with Mitt Romney’s campaign regularly reminding voters that there has been a net loss of jobs since Obama took office.

81 BongCrodny  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:13:28pm

re: #60 darthstar

Two men and a baby...in all fairness, the first baby's name is Boehner.

[Embedded content]

"My friends, if you elect me, I promise there will be a baby in every pot!"

82 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:13:45pm

Thank god my son has only gotten into Transformers. G1 was bad enough, but Robotech? Ugh.

At least the cartoon network Transformers Animated was good. Well written and with a far more interesting take on the story where you could believe the bad guys were dangerous and many more shades of grey than usual in "kids" animation. Not quite to Avatar:TLA level but still much better than usual.

83 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:13:50pm

re: #78 elizajane

The new strategy, in exemplary Karl Rove style, is to turn this around and have Mitt claim that it's Obama who is the enormous liar. Have you noticed that he's been saying this in interviews, including that the thing he is most worried about in the debates is that Obama will lie? He's not just spouting steam, this is part of a larger plan being rolled out today:

POLITICO: "Romney to 'Fact Check' Obama in Debate

[Link: www.politico.com...]

But the real give-away on this as a planned strategy is Karl Rove's editorial on the matter in yesterday's Wall Street Journal:

"Obama's Biggest Opponant is the Truth"

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

Why, it's almost like putting a chicken-hawk up against a decorated war hero and attacking the hero for being a chicken! It could never be done!
Oh, wait.

DARVO is bad in personal interaction, but its a good political tactic.

84 Kragar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:15:06pm

Romney’s Budget Plan Could Kill Millions Of Jobs Over The Next Two Years

EPI had to make assumptions about Romney’s plan because of its lack of specificity, but according to its analysis, Romney’s plan to lower taxes and cut spending would cause a net loss of 554,000 jobs over the next two years if Romney abandons his plan to pay for the massive tax cuts he has promised. But if he maintains his promise to balance the budget while also providing the huge tax cuts, his plan would “lead to employment losses of 608,000 in 2013 and roughly 1.3 million in 2014″:

The deep spending cuts Romney has promised are the primary reason for the job losses, EPI’s analysis found. If Romney does pay for the tax cuts, as he insists he will, the spending cuts would get even deeper and thus cause the loss of even more jobs. Another independent analysis, meanwhile, found that fully paying for Romney’s tax cuts would require raising taxes on the middle class.

Romney’s call for a Balanced Budget Amendment would cause even more problems. “Government spending cuts of this magnitude would constitute an economic shock even larger than the one inflicted by the bursting of the housing bubble—a shock that led to the worst recession since the Great Depression,” EPI wrote. But because that shock would be so large, EPI concluded that passage of such an amendment is “exceedingly unlikely” and it chose not to include it in the analysis.

85 Kragar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:16:01pm

re: #80 Targetpractice

"THE ECONOMY IS A DISTRACTION!" - Romney Campaign

86 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:16:58pm

re: #85 Kragar

"THE ECONOMY IS A DISTRACTION!" - Romney Campaign

"The economy will defeat Obama!"
*Job gains revised*
"FUCK!"

87 Kragar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:17:14pm

re: #82 William Barnett-Lewis

Thank god my son has only gotten into Transformers. G1 was bad enough, but Robotech? Ugh.

At least the cartoon network Transformers Animated was good. Well written and with a far more interesting take on the story where you could believe the bad guys were dangerous and many more shades of grey than usual in "kids" animation. Not quite to Avatar:TLA level but still much better than usual.

You think you have it bad? A few days ago, my daughter told me she wanted to play a Tau army in 40k.

Tau.

I have failed.

88 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:18:01pm

re: #87 Kragar

You think you have it bad? A few days ago, my daughter told m she wanted to play a Tau army in 40k.

Tau.

I have failed.

That's horrible, terrible, inconceivable....wait, who are they?

//

89 Jolo5309  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:18:48pm

re: #87 Kragar

You think you have it bad? A few days ago, my daughter told m she wanted to play a Tau army in 40k.

Tau.

I have failed.

Better than Eldar

90 iossarian  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:18:52pm

re: #83 Dark_Falcon

DARVO is bad in personal interaction, but its a good political tactic.

Remind me again what initially attracted you to Republican politics?

91 wrenchwench  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:19:28pm

re: #79 researchok

Apologies for not being more clear.

CJ made the (correct) remark when he said, 'politicians lie'. He did not distinguish between the parties.

My remarks directed at how politicians respond to the lies. I was not commenting on or referring to which campaign has been more or less truthful.

What is significant is how the parties and their leaders respond to campaign excesses.

Obama has been far more ethical than Romney in that regard- he admitted to and apologized for his parties excesses. He's the boss and he takes responsibility for what has been said on his behalf. That in my mind, marks a leader.

Mitt Romney has a made a point of standing by what he knows are falsehoods promulgated bu his campaign. That is very unethical and at best shows poor leadership (and perhaps how easily he can be manipulated) and at worst, a callous disregard for for the truth if it stands in his way.

That was the point I was trying to make.

OK. I understand that you were saying that Obama is more ethical because he apologized for excesses. It's just such a false equivalence to say, "both parties are engaging in what is deliberate deceit this campaign," and a false statement to attribute that to the original post. I can't see the video, so I wasn't sure if you were referring to something else, but you did say, "I believe CJ is right to note" and then said something that he didn't note.

Lately people have been saying to me, "I agree with you that..." and then saying something I don't believe and never said, and it bugs me.

92 dragonath  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:21:02pm

re: #60 darthstar

The best politican/baby picture ever:

[Link: www.corbisimages.com...]

93 Kragar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:21:18pm

re: #89 Jolo5309

Better than Eldar

"Dad, I want to play Eldar."
"GET OUT OF MY HOUSE! I CAST YOU OUT! I REJECT YOU."
"I meant Dark Eldar."
"Oh... ok."

94 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:24:27pm

re: #83 Dark_Falcon

DARVO is bad in personal interaction, but its a good political tactic.

Sad to see you coming out openly in favor of sociopathic dishonesty on any level. Qualifying the use doesn't make your point any less pathetic, you're basically saying that you like voting for liars.

95 jamesfirecat  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:26:34pm

re: #87 Kragar

You think you have it bad? A few days ago, my daughter told me she wanted to play a Tau army in 40k.

Tau.

I have failed.

Markerlights gonna mark.

96 Kragar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:28:43pm

re: #95 jamesfirecat

Markerlights gonna mark.

But they took out target locks.

97 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:30:09pm

re: #94 goddamnedfrank

Sad to see you coming out openly in favor of sociopathic dishonesty on any level. Qualifying the use doesn't make your point any less pathetic, you're basically saying that you like voting for liars.

I would not not use DARVO myself, but it can be an effective tactic. I am not defending it, but sometimes immoral tactics are nevertheless useful and effective tactics. That should not be read to justify them on a moral plain.

98 dragonath  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:31:40pm

re: #97 Dark_Falcon

I would not not use DARVO myself, but it can be an effective tactic. I am not defending it, but sometimes immoral tactics are nevertheless useful and effective tactics. That should not be read to justify them on a moral plain.

Edward Bernays would be so proud.

99 researchok  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:32:40pm

re: #91 wrenchwench

No problem.

I was less clear than I should have been.

100 aagcobb  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:41:29pm

re: #80 Targetpractice

One "fact" he can't check after today is that Obama's job record is a net negative:

New Jobs Numbers Put Obama In Net Job Growth Territory

And that net 386,000 extra jobs was achieved with 453,000 new private sector jobs and 67,000 fewer government jobs. Over a million government jobs have been lost, despite which we now have net job growth, meaning the economy is now much more centered on the private sector than before Obama took office. Small government conservatives ought to be jumping for joy.

101 iossarian  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:42:55pm

re: #100 aagcobb

And that net 386,000 extra jobs was achieved with 453,000 new private sector jobs and 67,000 fewer government jobs. Over a million government jobs have been lost, despite which we now have net job growth, meaning the economy is now much more centered on the private sector than before Obama took office. Small government conservatives ought to be jumping for joy.

Worst. Socialist. Ever.

102 dragonath  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:44:05pm

re: #100 aagcobb

So given this outcome, what are the disastrous things that are going to happen if Obama gets elected? Come on Dark, let's hear it.

103 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:44:05pm

re: #100 aagcobb

And that net 386,000 extra jobs was achieved with 453,000 new private sector jobs and 67,000 fewer government jobs. Over a million government jobs have been lost, despite which we now have net job growth, meaning the economy is now much more centered on the private sector than before Obama took office. Small government conservatives ought to be jumping for joy.

But we know that the BLS is totally in the tank for Obama and is producing a picture favorable to his reelection, or at least that's what we'll be told from now til the next UE report by the wingnuts.

104 Tigger2005  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:45:35pm

re: #97 Dark_Falcon

I would not not use DARVO myself, but it can be an effective tactic. I am not defending it, but sometimes immoral tactics are nevertheless useful and effective tactics. That should not be read to justify them on a moral plain.

Where did you learn Weaselese?

105 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:47:20pm

Another thing that is likely to stick in the wingnuts craw: Even if you believe the recent BLS numbers are falsified (which they no doubt do), the reality is that the economy under Obama has created more jobs in 4 years than the Bush economy did from '01 to '07.

106 iossarian  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:48:23pm

re: #105 Targetpractice

Another thing that is likely to sting in the wingnuts craw: Even if you believe the recent BLS numbers are falsified (which they no doubt do), the reality is that the economy under Obama has created more jobs in 4 years than the Bush economy did from '01 to '07.

And Bush II oversaw a massive expansion of government to pad his numbers. Don't forget that part.

107 aagcobb  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:50:23pm

re: #103 Targetpractice

But we know that the BLS is totally in the tank for Obama and is producing a picture favorable to his reelection, or at least that's what we'll be told from now til the next UE report by the wingnuts.

Which is why the good news is hidden in the often overlooked revisions./

108 engineer cat  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:50:26pm

re: #100 aagcobb

And that net 386,000 extra jobs was achieved with 453,000 new private sector jobs and 67,000 fewer government jobs. Over a million government jobs have been lost, despite which we now have net job growth, meaning the economy is now much more centered on the private sector than before Obama took office. Small government conservatives ought to be jumping for joy.

but the eeeevil soulll dessstroying sssaffty net is ssstil there we hatesss it we do

109 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:50:52pm

It should be pretty clear by now that we (humans) are highly skilled at lying, and that this skill is itself an evolutionary adaptation.

Anyway, determining the "truth", or reality, takes effort and skill as well.

Culture does matter here, by which I mean a society's acceptance for public debate about topics.

In our culture the "press" - a term now disembodied of its original meaning courtesy of the internet and the demise of newspapers - is expected to search for the truth, and publish such as "news", while opinions are expected to be labeled as such.

However, the art of the headline writer has been so refined that a headline can be interpreted in whatever manner the reader wishes.

No better example can be found that the news today about Mr. Nakoula. For example, this headline:

APNewsBreak: California man behind anti-Muslim film arrested on probation violation

Those who are not aware of the details of Mr. Nakoula's life can believe, and in certain circles will believe, that the US (specifically California) arrested Nakoula because he "insulted" the prophet of Islam, that his film was "anti-Muslim".

110 darthstar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:52:18pm

Okay, I found an mp3 copy of Ann Romney's interview and cut the clip where she says, "Stop it. This is hard. You want to try it? Get in the ring. This is hard." and converted it to a ringtone for my phone. Now who can tell me how we can go about making this publicly available?

111 RadicalModerate  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:53:22pm

Another day in Dallas, another case of right-wing racism.

Obama Yard Sign Replaced With ‘Ni**er Lover’ And ‘Obama Sucks D**k’

Unedited pics are included in the story, so be forewarned about potential NSFW nature.

Cassy Zobel, a 34 year-old, white democrat who lives in Mckinney Texas, had a rude awakening Friday morning. Her neighbor rang her doorbell to alert her to the vandalism and blatant racism on her property.

Zobel found that someone had covered her Obama/Biden sign, displayed in her yard, with offensive graffiti on both front and back.

112 Killgore Trout  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:53:33pm

re: #109 freetoken

It should be pretty clear by now that we (humans) are highly skilled at lying, and that this skill is itself an evolutionary adaptation.

Anyway, determining the "truth", or reality, takes effort and skill as well.

Culture does matter here, by which I mean a society's acceptance for public debate about topics.

In our culture the "press" - a term now disembodied of its original meaning courtesy of the internet and the demise of newspapers - is expected to search for the truth, and publish such as "news", while opinions are expected to be labeled as such.

However, the art of the headline writer has been so refined that a headline can be interpreted in whatever manner the reader wishes.

No better example can be found that the news today about Mr. Nakoula. For example, this headline:

APNewsBreak: California man behind anti-Muslim film arrested on probation violation

Those who are not aware of the details of Mr. Nakoula's life can believe, and in certain circles will believe, that the US (specifically California) arrested Nakoula because he "insulted" the prophet of Islam, that his film was "anti-Muslim".

Shit, I was worried about that. It's not going to look good.

113 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:53:38pm

re: #110 darthstar

Well, you can always Page it. Google will have it within minutes, and it'll show up on searches.

114 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:54:06pm

re: #60 darthstar

Two men and a baby...in all fairness, the first baby's name is Boehner.

POTUS is a baby whisperer.

115 Varek Raith  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:56:07pm

Good evening.

116 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:57:18pm

re: #112 Killgore Trout

Shit, I was worried about that. It's not going to look good.

Who cares what the conspiracy theorists who think he was targeted because he made a politically unpopular film think? The dude's parole said he couldn't use the internet. He did. Kind of simple for people to figure out, unless they're looking for a reason to conspiracy-monger.

117 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:58:24pm

He's certainly skilled when talking about women:

Todd Akin says McCaskill debated like a 'wildcat,' not as 'ladylike'

118 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:58:56pm

re: #116 Obdicut

Who cares what the conspiracy theorists who think he was targeted because he made a politically unpopular film think? The dude's parole said he couldn't use the internet. He did. Kind of simple for people to figure out, unless they're looking for a reason to conspiracy-monger.

Now, now, don't be using truth here, you'll get in the way of the concern...

119 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:58:57pm

re: #60 darthstar

Two men and a baby...in all fairness, the first baby's name is Boehner.

[Embedded content]

It looks like the babies get it.
I would say one has more sense than his parents...

120 Big Joe  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:59:02pm

re: #117 freetoken

He's certainly skilled when talking about women:

Todd Akin says McCaskill debated like a 'wildcat,' not as 'ladylike'

It's a natural talent.

121 Varek Raith  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 3:59:14pm

re: #117 freetoken

He's certainly skilled when talking about women:

Todd Akin says McCaskill debated like a 'wildcat,' not as 'ladylike'

He sounds butthurt.

122 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:00:34pm

I'm surprised they didn't do this from the start:

After 'savage' flap, NY subway ads get disclaimers

123 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:01:48pm

re: #100 aagcobb

And that net 386,000 extra jobs was achieved with 453,000 new private sector jobs and 67,000 fewer government jobs. Over a million government jobs have been lost, despite which we now have net job growth, meaning the economy is now much more centered on the private sector than before Obama took office. Small government conservatives ought to be jumping for joy.

Nah, they'll just lie to themselves.

124 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:04:20pm

Akin has his friends:

Conservatives Fund backs Akin in Mo. Senate bid

A conservative fundraising group backed embattled Missouri Senate candidate Todd Akin with as much as $290,000 for his campaign Thursday. But Akin handed new fundraising fodder to his foes by suggesting that Sen. Claire McCaskill had behaved in a less "ladylike" manner than she has in the past.

[...]

Akin's comment came moments after the Senate Conservatives Fund announced it was endorsing him. It was the highest-profile financial commitment Akin has netted since his campaign lost millions of dollars of planned advertising by other national groups that aid Republicans. Those groups withdrew their support after Akin remarked last month that women's bodies have ways of averting pregnancy in cases of "legitimate rape."

[...]


The Senate Conservatives Fund said it endorsed Akin because he is the Republican nominee, the race against McCaskill remains competitive and Missouri is important to Republican efforts to gain the four seats necessary to win control of the Senate. The organization said its members had pledged $290,000 toward Akin's campaign, and it hopes to get $100,000 to Akin by Sunday, which is the cutoff for the quarterly financial reporting period.

[...]

The aid from the Senate Conservatives Fund follows Akin's endorsement Wednesday by DeMint and former Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum, whose Patriot Voices political action committee said it was contributing money to Akin and hiring staff to work in Missouri. The Freedom's Defense Fund, which backs conservative candidates, also said earlier this week that it planned a $250,000 advertising campaign benefiting Akin.

[...]

125 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:05:53pm

re: #111 RadicalModerate

Another day in Dallas, another case of right-wing racism.

Obama Yard Sign Replaced With ‘Ni**er Lover’ And ‘Obama Sucks D**k’

Unedited pics are included in the story, so be forewarned about potential NSFW nature.

That, that Elizabeth Warren billboard downstairs, and the local Va. GOP facebook page...
The bigots are out in full force in our post-racial society.
And to think some would accuse the GOP of harboring racists !

126 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:07:01pm

re: #111 RadicalModerate

Another day in Dallas, another case of right-wing racism.

Obama Yard Sign Replaced With ‘Ni**er Lover’ And ‘Obama Sucks D**k’

Unedited pics are included in the story, so be forewarned about potential NSFW nature.

Her response was great. Sad, but great.

127 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:07:21pm

Headlines, headlines, headlines....

Producer of anti-Islam film arrested

Alleged anti-Muslim film maker arrested: prosecutor

Man Believed to be Producer of Anti-Islam Film in Custody in Los Angeles

The world should know by now that Americans will not tolerate blaspheming the prophet.

128 engineer cat  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:08:05pm

ladylike

haven't heard that adjective in a few decades

129 jaunte  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:10:32pm

re: #128 engineer cat

Akin is lost in time.

130 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:11:14pm

re: #129 jaunte

Akin is lost in time.

And space?

/too obscure?

131 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:11:35pm

re: #128 engineer cat

ladylike

haven't heard that adjective in a few decades

My mom always used it to tell me to cross my legs when sitting on the couch. When I was a teenager.

Old school context.

Gah if the idiots vote him in.

132 Killgore Trout  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:12:08pm

re: #127 freetoken

Headlines, headlines, headlines....

Producer of anti-Islam film arrested

Alleged anti-Muslim film maker arrested: prosecutor

Man Believed to be Producer of Anti-Islam Film in Custody in Los Angeles

The world should know by now that Americans will not tolerate blaspheming the prophet.

Yeah, Look forward to statements praising the arrest from Al Qaeda, Taliban, Ahmadinejad. I was really hoping he wasn't going to be arrested.

133 dragonath  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:12:48pm

Behold the crustiness!

134 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:15:00pm

re: #132 Killgore Trout

He's a swindler, and the court ordered him away from that favorite tool of the swindle - the internet. He simply got what he ought to have.

Yet, headline writers are writing to sell, not to tell.

135 dragonath  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:16:50pm

re: #124 freetoken

I wouldn't be too surprised if the polls aren't picking up how much he is pissing off people. I think the "Personhood" amendment in Mississippi was polling well until it got whacked in the election.

136 JamesWI  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:17:00pm

Voter ID officially out in Wisconsin (at least for this one election)

That's it! They're just going to steal the election with all their voting fraud!!!!

137 engineer cat  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:17:01pm

re: #133 dragonath

Behold the crustiness!

i'll give her some credit - she looks like a good person to have on hand for a difficult job

138 RadicalModerate  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:17:22pm

I think that a good addition to this story would be Maddow's blog logging each and every one of the lies that the Romney campaign has told during the course of the 2012 Presidential campaign.

At last count, it was roughly 750 lies in 36 weeks.

[Link: maddowblog.msnbc.com...]

Each and every falsehood that is listed has a link attached to it with documented evidence why the Romney campaign statement is untruthful.

139 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:21:09pm

re: #132 Killgore Trout

Yeah, Look forward to statements praising the arrest from Al Qaeda, Taliban, Ahmadinejad. I was really hoping he wasn't going to be arrested.

SO it's OK to break the conditions of your parole so long as it doesn't make you concerned? He shouldn't be arrested like anyone else just because of that? Damn, I guess then if I'm ever in legal trouble I guess I better make a movie bad mouthing Muhammad , Christ & maybe Hillel the Elder for good measure, so I can't be arrested?

140 SpaceJesus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:22:28pm

found you a thing, wrenchwench

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

141 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:22:47pm

Who could have guessed that southwest Minnesota could be such a region of dissent?

Staying on top of things

John Gochenouer, a business administration professor at Southwest Minnesota State University, wishes all his students were like the ones in his Senior College current events class - enthusiastic and appreciative.

[...]

This year one of the hot topics for discussion was the root causes of the current uprisings in Muslim countries over the movie "Innocence of Muslims."

[...]

Gochenouer said the movie can be presented to a lot of people who are illiterate. He maintains the protests in multiple countries are contrived.

[...]

Gochenouer said the protests are a "struggle against modern life," which is going on in the United States as well with intelligent design or creationism followers vs scientists.

"They (Muslims) are struggling with it and so are we - but we're not killing people," he said.

[...]

142 RadicalModerate  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:23:18pm

re: #132 Killgore Trout

Yeah, Look forward to statements praising the arrest from Al Qaeda, Taliban, Ahmadinejad. I was really hoping he wasn't going to be arrested.

He rather blatantly violated the terms of his probation. So, as long as he hates Muslims, the rule of law doesn't apply to him?

143 JamesWI  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:24:34pm

re: #142 RadicalModerate

He rather blatantly violated the terms of his probation. So, as long as he hates Muslims, the rule of law doesn't apply to him?

New KT rule: You can't arrest someone as long as they are speaking, as the arrest would impinge on their freedom of speech.

So if you are ever arrested, just keep talking./

144 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:24:51pm

From their little icon, I see that Google is now 14 years old.

I remember the world before Google. Heck, I remember the internet before Google search engine. Back then, the now defunct DEC had invested in Altavista (IIRC), and before that web crawlers were the hot thing.

145 darthstar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:26:17pm

re: #133 dragonath

Behold the crustiness!

She makes Ann Romney look like a pleasant human being.

146 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:27:35pm

re: #144 freetoken

From their little icon, I see that Google is now 14 years old.

I remember the world before Google. Heck, I remember the internet before Google search engine. Back then, the now defunct DEC had invested in Altavista (IIRC), and before that web crawlers were the hot thing.

Gee Grandpa, tell us some more stories!

///

147 wrenchwench  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:28:44pm

re: #140 SpaceJesus

found you a thing, wrenchwench

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

Thanks!

Why do we evangelize, obsess over and consume green chile with abandon? Early fall is green chile roasting season, which means that in grocery store parking lots, backyards and roadside stands around the whole state, chile roasters set up their huge, rotating drums over flames. New Mexico green chile packs a thick skin that has to be roasted off, not to mention the flavor that an open fire affords these peppers. I'm from Albuquerque, and I have vivid memories of the smell of roasting chiles creeping in through air conditioning vents, clinging to your clothes -- literally the whole city smells like roasting chiles from August to October. Even people (and yes, a few of them exist) who live in NM and don't love chile, will usually cop to appreciating this aroma of fall.

Last week I could smell it when I stepped out of the house in the morning.

Albuquerqueans tend to like their enchiladas rolled.

Nobody rolls 'em around here.

148 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:29:21pm

re: #144 freetoken

From their little icon, I see that Google is now 14 years old.

I remember the world before Google. Heck, I remember the internet before Google search engine. Back then, the now defunct DEC had invested in Altavista (IIRC), and before that web crawlers were the hot thing.

Altavista back when before Carly killed DEC was a hint of what was coming. Really great search engine.

But I caught myself missing Gopher the other night. Now that makes me feel old... ;)

149 garhighway  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:30:38pm

re: #142 RadicalModerate

He rather blatantly violated the terms of his probation. So, as long as he hates Muslims, the rule of law doesn't apply to him?

Stop it. You're getting in the way of the concern.

150 JamesWI  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:30:40pm

Heh, that's funny. The editor of TPM's PollTracker was basically my boss when I interned for a State Senator in college.

151 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:32:09pm

Romey's presidential odds are heading towards Loch Ness/Bigfoot Sighting territory on Intrade: 22.6.

152 SpaceJesus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:32:25pm

re: #147 wrenchwench

such an amazing little plant. i tried explaining the smell to some arizona co-workers of mine and they had no idea what i was talking about.

153 JamesWI  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:34:08pm

re: #150 JamesWI

Heh, that's funny. The editor of TPM's PollTracker was basically my boss when I interned for a State Senator in college.

Saw him on a TPM video explaining how much the 47% video hurt Romney in the polls, and thought "Wait a minute, that's the dude who made me answer all the phone calls (most of which were angry conservatives)"

154 SpaceJesus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:35:46pm

re: #147 wrenchwench

Thanks!

Last week I could smell it when I stepped out of the house in the morning.

Nobody rolls 'em around here.

True, I went to a place called El Sombrero when I was through Las Cruces and it was served up flat. Pretty darn good.

155 LadyBehir  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:36:04pm

re: #110 darthstar

Okay, I found an mp3 copy of Ann Romney's interview and cut the clip where she says, "Stop it. This is hard. You want to try it? Get in the ring. This is hard." and converted it to a ringtone for my phone. Now who can tell me how we can go about making this publicly available?

I don't know if it is still functioning, but there is a ringtone site called Phonezoo that you can upload ringtones to.

156 RadicalModerate  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:37:45pm

re: #149 garhighway

Stop it. You're getting in the way of the concern.

At this point, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if there was a sudden jump to the defense of the Brietbart loyalists and the tactics of James O'Keefe.

157 Kragar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:41:52pm

Akin: McCaskill ‘Like Somebody Let A Wildcat Out Of The Cage’

On the heels of saying Claire McCaskill's performace at the Missouri Senate debate wasn't "ladylike," Todd Akin compared Democratic Senator's demeanor at the debate to that of a caged animal.

"The first two minutes, wow, it's like somebody let a wildcat out of the cage," Akin told supporters Thursday according to the Los Angeles Times. "She was just furious and attacking in every different direction, which was a little bit of a surprise to us."

158 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:42:57pm

Ah, gotta love it. The Breitbartians have decided that polls are not only "oversampling Dems," but are also "undersampling Indies," arguing that Romney actually has a strong lead amongst them and they'll be what wins him Florida and Ohio.

Poll Trutherism seems to be their last refuge.

159 Kragar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:43:40pm

re: #158 Targetpractice

Ah, gotta love it. The Breitbartians have decided that polls are not only "oversampling Dems," but are also "undersampling Indies," arguing that Romney actually has a strong lead amongst them and they'll be what wins him Florida and Ohio.

Poll Trutherism seems to be their last refuge.

If you only ask Republicans, Romney might just have a shot at winning.

Maybe.

160 Kragar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:44:59pm

Poll: Obama Holds Huge Lead Among Jewish Voters

President Obama leads Mitt Romney 65 percent to 24 percent among Jewish voters, according to a new poll by the American Jewish Committee. According to the poll, Obama is handily winning every demographic within the community except Orthodox Jews, who go for Romney 54-40.

161 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:45:07pm

re: #159 Kragar

If you only ask Republicans, Romney might just have a shot at winning.

Maybe.

It's all they really have left at this point, this belief that there's is great and powerful untapped reserved of undecided indie voters who are gonna rise up and put Romney in office. This despite all the pollsters saying that the pool of undecideds has actually shrunk compared to past elections and is quickly polarizing into one camp or the other.

162 JamesWI  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:45:11pm

re: #158 Targetpractice

Ah, gotta love it. The Breitbartians have decided that polls are not only "oversampling Dems," but are also "undersampling Indies," arguing that Romney actually has a strong lead amongst them and they'll be what wins him Florida and Ohio.

Poll Trutherism seems to be their last refuge.

I'm pretty sure I just saw a new Fox News poll from a swing state that showed Obama had the clear lead with Indies......I'll have to go look for it.

163 Kragar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:47:03pm

Heh, the only thing more fun than a laser pointer with a bunch of grade schoolers pretending they're cats is when you point the laser pointer at one kid and all the rest tackle her.

164 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:47:05pm

re: #146 Targetpractice

Gee Grandpa, tell us some more stories!

///

Well, since you asked...

Speaking of DEC, I remember way back when we got our first terminal, that is, a paper terminal. (I'll assume you know what "paper" is like - if not you can visit your local museum.) It integrated a typewriter-like keyboard with a paper printer (using ribbons of inked cloth, like typewriters used to use). These terminals were connected to what was then called a "minicomputer" - it wasn't as big as the computers used by the IRS and the like. "PDP" was the model name, from the aforementioned DEC.

Neat stuff back then, to watch the terminal type away.

You kids these days missed out on all the fun stuff.

165 JamesWI  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:47:25pm

re: #162 JamesWI

I'm pretty sure I just saw a new Fox News poll from a swing state that showed Obama had the clear lead with Indies......I'll have to go look for it.

Slightly off there, it was the national poll:

166 Charles Johnson  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:47:36pm

Got a really really nice new feature coming for the LGF Pages posting app -- an integrated Image Library. You guys will like this. Guarans.

167 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:49:00pm

re: #157 Kragar

Akin: McCaskill ‘Like Somebody Let A Wildcat Out Of The Cage’

He really ought to write a book titled "The Art of Winning Over Women".

168 Kragar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:49:06pm

XCOM has released the Demo version. Downloading now.

169 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:49:19pm

re: #164 freetoken

Well, since you asked...

Speaking of DEC, I remember way back when we got our first terminal, that is, a paper terminal. (I'll assume you know what "paper" is like - if not you can visit your local museum.) It integrated a typewriter-like keyboard with a paper printer (using ribbons of inked cloth, like typewriters used to use). These terminals were connected to what was then called a "minicomputer" - it wasn't as big as the computers used by the IRS and the like. "PDP" was the model name, from the aforementioned DEC.

Neat stuff back then, to watch the terminal type away.

You kids these days missed out on all the fun stuff.

Sorta like the ol' teletypes?

170 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:49:31pm

re: #144 freetoken

From their little icon, I see that Google is now 14 years old.

I remember the world before Google. Heck, I remember the internet before Google search engine. Back then, the now defunct DEC had invested in Altavista (IIRC), and before that web crawlers were the hot thing.

Ha! I used to use Metacrawler and Altavista. I remember trying to teach other people how to use them. They'd start typing, "How much does a killer whale eat in a day" or some other natural-language phrase, and of course the search engines couldn't make head or tail of it. You'd have to work at it, and sometimes even just switching the order of certain words in your search would completely change the results. But the important thing is that I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time.

171 Kragar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:49:50pm

re: #167 freetoken

He really ought to write a book titled "The Art of Winning Over Women".

Akin's guide to foreplay: "Brace yourself!"

172 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:49:52pm

re: #168 Kragar

XCOM has released the Demo version. Downloading now.

Really? Shit, there goes my weekend.

173 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:49:54pm

re: #156 RadicalModerate

At this point, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if there was a sudden jump to the defense of the Brietbart loyalists and the tactics of James O'Keefe.

KT just wants attention. The only way he thinks he can get it, for some reason, is to troll/contrarian everything on LGF.

(except when its a music video - KT abstains on those so far - thats our future measurement of sailing off the cliff)

174 BongCrodny  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:50:22pm

From the Senate Conservatives Fund website:

Over 8,000 votes were cast and 93% of you said the Senate Conservatives Fund (SCF) should endorse Todd Akin (R-MO) given that he's the Republican candidate, the race is competitive, and the outcome could determine control of the Senate.

I seem to remember someone here yesterday saying that "conservative denunciations were swift and unequivocal."

All 7% of them.

175 JamesWI  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:50:25pm
176 Kragar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:51:06pm

re: #172 Targetpractice

Really? Shit, there goes my weekend.

And according to the presales, 84% of the way to getting a free copy of Civ 5.

177 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:51:51pm

re: #169 Targetpractice

Sorta like the ol' teletypes?

Yes, but the "teletype" might only have worked one-way - that is, you might have only been receiving what somebody was sending you (this was the origin, btw, back when experiments were done with communicating messages and the typewriter was the basis for the design.) The neat thing with the terminals hooked up to the minicomputer is that you could have your own "session" - it was like having your own computer!

See, in those days owning your own computer was a really big deal.

178 Kragar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:52:28pm

re: #175 JamesWI

[Embedded content]

Who would have thought that deliberately attempting to deprive people of their right to vote might piss some people off?

179 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:52:45pm

re: #176 Kragar

And according to the presales, 84% of the way to getting a free copy of Civ 5.

Well, I know the first thing my paycheck's going towards this week.

180 dragonfire1981  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:53:28pm

re: #175 JamesWI

[Embedded content]

Count how many white people you see in that picture. Yeah, that ought to give you a clue what this is really about.

There aren't many people in that crowd I'd peg as Romney voters.

181 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:53:37pm

re: #177 freetoken

Yes, but the "teletype" might only have worked one-way - that is, you might have only been receiving what somebody was sending you (this was the origin, btw, back when experiments were done with communicating messages and the typewriter was the basis for the design.) The neat thing with the terminals hooked up to the minicomputer is that you could have your own "session" - it was like having your own computer!

See, in those days owning your own computer was a really big deal.

Yeah, I'm familiar with that. Oddly enough, I learned about it partly through the Fallout games, of all things. Big central computer, with all the users basically sharing time on it.

182 Kragar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:53:47pm

re: #179 Targetpractice

Well, I know the first thing my paycheck's going towards this week.

Using Steam? They're the ones using the phased presale rewards with the free Civ5.

184 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:55:15pm

re: #182 Kragar

Using Steam? They're the ones using the phased presale rewards with the free Civ5.

Most definitely.

185 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:55:52pm

re: #164 freetoken

Well, since you asked...

Speaking of DEC, I remember way back when we got our first terminal, that is, a paper terminal. (I'll assume you know what "paper" is like - if not you can visit your local museum.) It integrated a typewriter-like keyboard with a paper printer (using ribbons of inked cloth, like typewriters used to use). These terminals were connected to what was then called a "minicomputer" - it wasn't as big as the computers used by the IRS and the like. "PDP" was the model name, from the aforementioned DEC.

Neat stuff back then, to watch the terminal type away.

You kids these days missed out on all the fun stuff.

PDP-11 was fun. BSD started there.
VAX was even more fun. VMS remains an awesome OS.
PDP-10 though? That was sheer cool in a box. 36 bit words & some wild research being done on them. DEC in those days was like Apple, IBM & Microsoft's best features rolled into one. The proverbial "one brief shining moment".

LispM's though were the best of them all. I hope Brad Parker finally gets his CADR on a FPGA running. I'll put one in a laptop shell and scare the mundanes with a laptop running LISP ;)

186 darthstar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 4:59:36pm
187 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:00:29pm

re: #185 William Barnett-Lewis

I'm afraid we've made it too easy for the young 'uns these days, as far as computers go. It used to be that one had to be rather creative to use a computer - to make it do something interesting or useful for you.

Today, "using" a computer means going on Youtube and finding some video that offends you and getting all worked up about it.

188 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:00:53pm

re: #186 darthstar

[Embedded content]

And Romney has, according to TPM, a .3% lead over Obama there.

189 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:01:46pm

re: #164 freetoken

Well, since you asked...

Speaking of DEC, I remember way back when we got our first terminal, that is, a paper terminal. (I'll assume you know what "paper" is like - if not you can visit your local museum.) It integrated a typewriter-like keyboard with a paper printer (using ribbons of inked cloth, like typewriters used to use). These terminals were connected to what was then called a "minicomputer" - it wasn't as big as the computers used by the IRS and the like. "PDP" was the model name, from the aforementioned DEC.

Neat stuff back then, to watch the terminal type away.

You kids these days missed out on all the fun stuff.

Heh. Or putting together a card deck to run on the card reader and compiler on that PDP-11 that linked into the DEC-10 mainframe. (FORTRAN IV baby!)

190 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:02:14pm

re: #169 Targetpractice

Sorta like the ol' teletypes?

Pretty much.

191 wrenchwench  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:03:49pm

re: #154 SpaceJesus

True, I went to a place called El Sombrero when I was through Las Cruces and it was served up flat. Pretty darn good.

Best Mexican restaurant I've been to this year was in Kingman, AZ. El Palacio. Oh, man it was good! Not much else to recommend about Kingman, unless you like second hand stores and 'antiques'.

192 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:04:16pm

re: #187 freetoken

That is why I really love hacking on a LispM emulator.

193 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:04:33pm

Desperate attempt by an activist:

If Obama Wants To Be Re-Elected, He Needs To Break His Climate Silence

Nonsense. Obama's re-election hinges not one whiff upon his climate change policies.

194 ReamWorks SKG  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:06:46pm

It's fair to bring his faith into this because Mitt Romney makes a Big Deal of his faith. (For example, he takes reporters to Church with him [Link: www.buzzfeed.com...] )

In a NY Times interview he claims he prays before making big decisions: [Link: www.nytimes.com...]

So my question is, his "What's good for the goose is good for the gander" statement about lying: Is this based on his faith? Does his faith say it's OK to bear false witness to advance your cause?

Or is he also lying about the depth of his religious convictions?

195 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:07:45pm

re: #192 William Barnett-Lewis

The biggest leap in my computational ability was when I bought my first electronic cacluator (to replace the slide-rule) - the TI-30.

Everything since then has incrementally been smaller.

196 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:07:50pm

re: #185 William Barnett-Lewis

PDP-11 was fun. BSD started there.
VAX was even more fun. VMS remains an awesome OS.
PDP-10 though? That was sheer cool in a box. 36 bit words & some wild research being done on them. DEC in those days was like Apple, IBM & Microsoft's best features rolled into one. The proverbial "one brief shining moment".

LispM's though were the best of them all. I hope Brad Parker finally gets his CADR on a FPGA running. I'll put one in a laptop shell and scare the mundanes with a laptop running LISP ;)

I was attending DECUS meetings right when the Alpha chip came out. DEC had a very good microprocessor chip, one of the best relational database products (Rdb), knew that the world was heading towards networks of microprocessors rather than "big iron", and also had some other good products and a good reputation in general. And somehow essentially pissed it all away in ~5 years during the 90s.

197 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:08:14pm

re: #193 freetoken

Desperate attempt by an activist:

If Obama Wants To Be Re-Elected, He Needs To Break His Climate Silence

Nonsense. Obama's re-election hinges not one whiff upon his climate change policies.

That's about the third emprog whine fest I've looked at today.

198 MittDoesNotCompute  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:08:59pm

re: #83 Dark_Falcon

DARVO is bad in personal interaction, but its a good political tactic.

No, it's not, because it (like those who use and approve of it) is fundamentally dishonest and morally bankrupt.

199 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:09:19pm

re: #197 Gus

That's about the third emprog whine fest I've looked at today.

There's a sense of desperation, for those not already consigned to resignation, about getting any meaningful climate change policy implemented.

200 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:09:21pm

re: #197 Gus

That's about the third emprog whine fest I've looked at today.

Is that surprising since facts and real data are not going to support what they want to happen?

201 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:10:42pm

re: #176 Kragar

And according to the presales, 84% of the way to getting a free copy of Civ 5.

I'd rather have Civ IV again.

202 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:11:11pm

re: #199 freetoken

There's a sense of desperation, for those not already consigned to resignation, about getting any meaningful climate change policy implemented.

And Gitmo, and drones, and pot, and drones, and NDAA, and drones, and kill lists, and drones, and Wikieleaks, and drones, and Julian Assange, and drones.

Manarchy!!!!

//

203 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:11:45pm

re: #193 freetoken

Desperate attempt by an activist:

If Obama Wants To Be Re-Elected, He Needs To Break His Climate Silence

Nonsense. Obama's re-election hinges not one whiff upon his climate change policies.

Weren't some of these the same nuts who were demanding that Obama be "primaried," using the logic that the fear of losing that primary would force Obama to move far to the left?

204 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:12:19pm

In other news. Getting really tired of that never ending Twitter feud that's been going on revolving around a certain black cat.

205 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:12:34pm

re: #195 freetoken

The biggest leap in my computational ability was when I bought my first electronic cacluator (to replace the slide-rule) - the TI-30.

Everything since then has incrementally been smaller.

Funny. I recently cleaned up and started relearning a Pickett N600-ES slide rule... LOL

206 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:13:04pm

re: #203 Targetpractice

I don't know.

What I do know is that US elections are about few things, most of which are not substantive long-term global policy issues.

207 Interesting Times  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:13:34pm

re: #204 Gus

In other news. Getting really tired of that never ending Twitter feud that's been going on revolving around a certain black cat.

Ugh. Tell me about it. My Twitter account is for following news and politics, not endless, angst-y personal drama. If I wanted that, I'd go back to Facebook :P

208 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:13:40pm

re: #204 Gus

In other news. Getting really tired of that never ending Twitter feud that's been going on revolving around a certain black cat.

There's a feud over Basement Cat?

//

209 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:14:49pm

Looks like old man Murdoch was foiled in his attempt to take over UK educational system:

A lucky escape from Murdoch

210 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:15:33pm

re: #203 Targetpractice

Weren't some of these the same nuts who were demanding that Obama be "primaried," using the logic that the fear of losing that primary would force Obama to move far to the left?

They don't know what they're talking about. Clueless Unicorn people. I won't vote for a far-left Democrat. I don't want anyone like Kucinich near the White House.

211 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:16:18pm

re: #196 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

I was attending DECUS meetings right when the Alpha chip came out. DEC had a very good microprocessor chip, one of the best relational database products (Rdb), knew that the world was heading towards networks of microprocessors rather than "big iron", and also had some other good products and a good reputation in general. And somehow essentially pissed it all away in ~5 years during the 90s.

The Alpha was so cool. I still have a copy of VMS for Alpha just in case I get lucky. I think I still have a copy of RDB for VAX tucked away in the archive as well.

212 Interesting Times  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:16:41pm

re: #206 freetoken

I don't know.

What I do know is that US elections are about few things, most of which are not substantive long-term global policy issues.

New show idea! "Here Comes Honey Boo Boo - what kind of a world will she face when she's thirty?"

I just might be serious here - if one could find a way to weave climate change policy into some trashy-but-inexplicably popular reality show, perhaps people would pay attention...

213 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:17:16pm

re: #202 Gus

And Gitmo, and drones, and pot, and drones, and NDAA, and drones, and kill lists, and drones, and Wikieleaks, and drones, and Julian Assange, and drones.

Manarchy!!!!

//

Ugh.
Professional Left, spoiled brats all.

214 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:20:54pm

re: #213 Reverend Mother Ramallo

Ugh.
Professional Left, spoiled brats all.

OK, I hadn't seen the awesome later Dune reference in your handle yet...

Grats to awesomeness.

215 Tigger2005  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:21:31pm

re: #199 freetoken

There's a sense of desperation, for those not already consigned to resignation, about getting any meaningful climate change policy implemented.

Obama actually stands a better chance of being re-elected (and maybe doing more to address climate change) by NOT making it an issue right now. Sad but true. Really, if you want to move at all forward, even if it is baby steps, you have to vote O (and give him a Congress he can work with). The alternative is to take several giant leaps backward.

216 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:21:36pm

re: #214 Zionist Lord of Remulak

OK, I hadn't seen the awesome later Dune reference in your handle yet...

Grats to awesomeness.

Thank you!

217 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:21:47pm

re: #212 Interesting Times

"Climate"-policy is a subset of "Living together on one planet with everyone else"-policy, a topic about which Americans know little and even care about less.

All of our hand wringing about "climate policy" have been, so far, projections of power-plays between groups traditionally aligned with one of the two major political parties.

The latest Democratic convention was, if anything, a car-gasm. The single invention that most directly has determined the course of events this country went down to be the single biggest changer of world climate - the automobile - was put on a pedestal.

By the Democrats.

So no, there will be no effective climate "policy".

218 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:22:18pm

Yikes. Just went to FoxNews.com. They've gone bonkers. The Fox News page is finally looking like Fox Nation. The former having been a little more toned down than Fox Nation.

219 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:23:24pm

re: #204 Gus

In other news. Getting really tired of that never ending Twitter feud that's been going on revolving around a certain black cat.

OMG i responded once. its pitiful.

220 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:24:24pm

re: #218 Gus

You mean the big screaming headline on the homepage:

"Obama 'Trying to Hide' Libya Details?"

Is not objective reporting?

221 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:25:21pm

re: #219 We're All Welfare Queens Now

OMG i responded once. its pitiful.

I don't know. If it doesn't come to an end soon I'm just going to have to unfollow a lot of people. Tired of it.

222 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:25:43pm

re: #211 William Barnett-Lewis

The Alpha was so cool. I still have a copy of VMS for Alpha just in case I get lucky. I think I still have a copy of RDB for VAX tucked away in the archive as well.

VAX/VMS systems are still chugging away here and there. When the company I work for purchased a few plants at the beginning of the year a VAX turned up connected to something over at a location in Germany. And they still haven't worked out how to replace using it.

223 Interesting Times  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:25:49pm

re: #219 We're All Welfare Queens Now

OMG i responded once. its pitiful.

A Twitter feud that's pitiful is...Twittiful?

224 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:25:56pm

So, I am astonished that the Romney "debate strategy" is to put a focus on campaign lies.

Projection is always astonishing.

Please Flippy Mitt... put a hard spotlight on falsehoods and stretching of truth...

Mitt: It's the economy stupid...

Obama: And which of your non economic plans are you half presenting tonight?

Mitt: Be tougher on Iran...

Obama: Can you be trusted to be tough on them after the millions of dollars you made when Bain invested in Irani National Oil?

Mitt: Of course I care about all Americans...

Obama: Is that why you like firing them?

Go on Mittens... bring it on...

225 Lidane  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:27:19pm

re: #210 Gus

I don't want anyone like Kucinich near the White House.

Neither does the Democratic party. Kucinich ran in 2004 and never got out of Luap Nor single digit territory, and he ended up withdrawing in 2008 before Super Tuesday.

226 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:27:37pm

re: #212 Interesting Times

New show idea! "Here Comes Honey Boo Boo - what kind of a world will she face when she's thirty?"

I just might be serious here - if one could find a way to weave climate change policy into some trashy-but-inexplicably popular reality show, perhaps people would pay attention...

It would be nice... Well... A couple of hundred billion more dollars in damages from climate coupled with a world wide meat and coffee shortage next year ought to get some folks thinking.

227 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:31:27pm

re: #226 Zionist Lord of Remulak

It would be nice... Well... A couple of hundred billion more dollars in damages from climate coupled with a world wide meat and coffee shortage next year ought to get some folks thinking.

... that it is all Obama's fault.
:p
///

228 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:31:49pm

Indeed, the Foxnews webpage now is looking more and more like one of those "papers".

Like the National Enquirer.

Only with fewer UFOs.

I guess we should expect this, given that the wingnut outlets like WND have surpassed the National Enquirer is sliminess, and have ventured into Weekly World News territory.

229 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:32:11pm

OK, I'm out - going to a wedding reception tonight at 630. Why the hell on a Thursday nite? restaurant peeps, exceptional venue for waaaaay less $ (the Prado Freetoken/Kragar)

Go American ingenuity!!!!

230 Interesting Times  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:32:28pm

re: #226 Zionist Lord of Remulak

It would be nice... Well... A couple of hundred billion more dollars in damages from climate coupled with a world wide meat and coffee shortage next year ought to get some folks thinking.

To say nothing of blackouts and power shortages caused by a lack of water to cool coal/gas and yes, even nuclear plants. Continuing drought could potentially bring the end of cheap fracking as well.

231 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:34:00pm

re: #230 Interesting Times

To say nothing of blackouts and power shortages caused by a lack of water to cool coal/gas and yes, even nuclear plants. Continuing drought could potentially bring the end of cheap fracking as well.

I would call that a silver-lining.

232 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:34:18pm

I wonder what Mr. Unskewed Polls would think about this?

Democrat Leaners Prefer Clinton to Obama in Poll

A plurality of Democratic-leaning voters would prefer Bill Clinton at the top of the presidential ticket even as they support President Barack Obama.

233 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:35:16pm

re: #230 Interesting Times

Only one thing will stop the flow of carbon from being in the ground to being into the atmosphere, and it's not "climate policy".

It's extraction costs.

234 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:35:23pm

re: #232 freetoken

I wonder what Mr. Unskewed Polls would think about this?

Democrat Leaners Prefer Clinton to Obama in Poll

Who wouldn't? Shit, if it weren't for the 22nd Amendment, Bubba would probably still be in office.

235 Lidane  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:38:34pm

re: #234 Targetpractice

Who wouldn't? Shit, if it weren't for the 22nd Amendment, Bubba would probably still be in office.

I saw a bunch of people on FB and Twitter cursing the 22nd Amendment after Clinton spoke at the DNC. They love the guy.

Frankly, I don't blame them. I would have voted for him again without a single thought.

236 BongCrodny  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:39:04pm

Okay, this is kind of interesting, but I imagine it won't really be much of a suriprise to anyone.

I checked out Jim Demint's Senate Conservatives Fund with OpenSecrets.org, and went to the page that lists filings with the Federal Elections Commission.

A number of the SCF's expenditures go to a company called ASG Marketing, mainly for the "rental" of e-mail lists, presumably to hit up political contributors for SCF-approved candidates. A rough calculation of the total amount was in the neighborhood of $150,000.

The address of record for ASG Marketing is 2020 Pennsylvania Avenue, Suite 351, Washington, DC.

Which just happens to be the *exact* same address of...


WORLD NET DAILY!

237 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:39:08pm

Meh. I like em both.
Clinton just has more freedom to talk shit.

238 Stephen T.  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:39:52pm

re: #27 AK-47%

Business is all about making money. People who can narrow their focus and keep their eye on the bottom line profits can do quite well at it. Government is not about short-term profits for a few, it is about generating long-term benefits for everyone.

What strikes me about people who's business is all about making money, is that so few of them are any good at it. Most of the managers I've met and worked with, or worked for, I find, are penny wise and pound foolish. "We can save, a thousand dollars by cutting this small amount of fat from the company, but we're going to spend several million in pursing this legal case, that we have no chance of winning."

239 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:40:59pm

re: #236 BongCrodny

Sounds like a good Page.

240 Interesting Times  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:41:30pm

re: #233 freetoken

Only one thing will stop the flow of carbon from being in the ground to being into the atmosphere, and it's not "climate policy".

It's extraction costs.

Exactly. And two things can bring that about much sooner than conventionally thought:

1) Ending fossil fuel subsidies (dependent on non-existent political will)
2) Continuing drought (will happen regardless, laughing in the faces of puny pray-for-rain humans)

Unconventional oil and natural gas extraction use up and pollute metric fucktons of fresh water, which even the whingiest wingnuts require to, you know, live.

241 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:41:43pm

re: #238 Stephen T.

What strikes me about people who's business is all about making money, is that so few of them are any good at it. Most of the managers I've met and worked with, or worked for, I find, are penny wise and pound foolish. "We can save, a thousand dollars by cutting this small amount of fat from the company, but we're going to spend several million in pursing this legal case, that we have no chance of winning."

The argument in their minds, especially in this day and age, is "That cut will shore up our stock price, while we can use legal tactics to delay that lawsuit for years."

242 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:42:16pm

re: #230 Interesting Times

To say nothing of blackouts and power shortages caused by a lack of water to cool coal/gas and yes, even nuclear plants. Continuing drought could potentially bring the end of cheap fracking as well.

Which would be a blessing in disguise.

The bottom line is that we all wake up and scream or its curtains. Agriculture as we know it ends, rationing begins in America, and societal structures as we know them end as the economy crashes, diseases spread, millions are flooded out and millions more lack food and clean water. Hell that is just 2050-2070.

The journal papers today were not encouraging. Right now, we are clearly on a six degree + warming trajectory. Of course, that's just the likely end of our species Long before that, at four degrees, our civilization will have completely crumbled.

We really only have about 10 years, that is really it, to stop us going into a three degree world.

That is more than bad enough.

243 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:42:39pm

re: #236 BongCrodny

One thing to note is that a law firm representing these organizations could be handling all the documents, which is why they all end up having the same address.

244 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:43:10pm

Oh dear god. Brooks Bayne, that weirdo Randy, and Lee Stranahan are also mixed up in this childish melodrama.

245 Interesting Times  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:44:28pm

Holy effing crap! Is there some kind of genetic douche template?! o_O

246 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:44:31pm

re: #240 Interesting Times

Well, I'm convinced that the wealth inherent in those hydrogen-carbon bonds (in all that fossil fuel) will be too tempting, even at much, much higher prices, to be left in the ground.

247 BongCrodny  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:46:54pm

re: #243 freetoken

One thing to note is that a law firm representing these organizations could be handling all the documents, which is why they all end up having the same address.

I considered that, but WND lists its address on its website as:

WND | 2020 Pennsylvania Ave NW, #351 | Washington, DC 20006

I don't really think it's of any major significance, other than just another example of how wingnut welfare gets spread around.

Still, it doesn't surprise me in the least to see Jim Demint working with WND.

248 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:47:25pm

Bob Wright forewarns us:

The Coming Romney Comeback Narrative

249 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:48:11pm

re: #247 BongCrodny

I suspect it is the same address because they are using the same company (law firm) to do all the paperwork.

250 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:49:52pm

re: #248 freetoken

Bob Wright forewarns us:

The Coming Romney Comeback Narrative

It's satire.

251 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:51:26pm

In other news,

I recently read what has become one of my new favorite books:

It is called Leviathan Wakes by James S. A. Corey.

The story is a hard (as in more hard sci fi than soft sci fi) completely kick ass Space Opera. It has some truly riveting action, yet it manages to make a number of old tropes fresh and inject a number of new wrinkles with a good dose of humor interspersed through the very well done and engaging character development and story line.

It manages to give the warmth of a crew like Firefly and the sense of depth of a larger universe like Mass Effect.

It has one of my favorite lines ever:

"What about the rescue mission?"

"Nah, the rescue mission is scrubbed. Amos will be killed by space hookers. But, at least he will die as he lived."

Most interestingly, it has two equally weighted heroes. They are both honorable and decent men. They are frequently both right and both wrong. The tension between them drives a lot of great material in a meta sense about what a hero should be and do.

Anyway... Buy the book! Read the book! It does for Space Opera what Martin did for High Fantasy with the Tale of Ice and Fire.

252 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:51:28pm

Yes, it's the polls that skewed:

I heard it on Fox News.

253 Interesting Times  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:52:51pm

Ha:

254 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:53:57pm

re: #253 Interesting Times

Better yet, when they are both caucasian, large nosed, light brown haired.

Think about that.

255 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:54:09pm

re: #253 Interesting Times

Ha:

[Embedded content]

What God couldn't have made them with navels if He wanted?

256 BongCrodny  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:55:47pm

re: #249 freetoken

I suspect it is the same address because they are using the same company (law firm) to do all the paperwork.

That could be. The documents are significant in size. It could take an army of attorneys to file a document of that size.

257 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:55:58pm

Hmmm... me thinks the Vatican is showing signs of worry:

Vatican paper weighs on 'Jesus' Wife' Coptic papyrus fragment: fake

258 jamesfirecat  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:56:15pm

re: #234 Targetpractice

Who wouldn't? Shit, if it weren't for the 22nd Amendment, Bubba would probably still be in office.

The 22nd Amendment put in place after the depression ending, Germany and Japan defeating, America as a world superpower creating nightmare that was FDR's five term presidency.

259 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:56:41pm

At U.N., Egypt and Yemen Urge Curbs on Free Speech
By NEIL MacFARQUHAR
Published: September 26, 2012

UNITED NATIONS — The new presidents of Egypt and Yemen — both of whom were swept to power by uprisings demanding democratic rights — issued clear rebuttals on Wednesday to President Obama’s ardent defense of Western values at the United Nations, arguing that cultural limits on rights like freedom of speech had to be respected.

President Mohamed Morsi of Egypt, who billed his 40-minute speech to world leaders as the first by a democratically elected leader of his country, condemned the violence stemming from a short online video that insulted the Prophet Muhammad and led to numerous deaths, including that of the American ambassador to Libya and three of his staff members.

But Mr. Morsi rejected Mr. Obama’s broad defense of free speech a day earlier at the United Nations, saying “Egypt respects freedom of expression, freedom of expression that is not used to incite hatred against anyone.”

“We expect from others, as they expect from us, that they respect our cultural specifics and religious references, and not seek to impose concepts or cultures that are unacceptable to us,” said Mr. Morsi, a former leader of the Muslim Brotherhood. “Insults against the prophet of Islam, Muhammad, are not acceptable. We will not allow anyone to do this by word or by deed.”

On Tuesday, Mr. Obama laid out a lengthy defense of the right of free speech as a universal value. But Mr. Morsi and other leaders signaled that such a right could only go so far, even if the Arab world has four new leaders because of popular revolutions demanding basic human rights.

Continues.

260 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:57:26pm

re: #258 jamesfirecat

The 22nd Amendment put in place after the depression ending, Germany and Japan defeating, America as a world superpower creating nightmare that was FDR's five term presidency.

Who, if he'd still been alive, probably would have run for a sixth.

261 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:57:38pm

re: #257 freetoken

Hmmm... me thinks the Vatican is showing signs of worry:

Vatican paper weighs on 'Jesus' Wife' Coptic papyrus fragment: fake

Perhaps they never read the Gospel According to Mary Magdeline...

I don't even know why this is news when there is a whole extant Gospel (cut out by the council of Mycenae) where she claims to be his wife.

262 Lidane  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:59:32pm

re: #253 Interesting Times

Hahaha. I hadn't thought of that.

263 jamesfirecat  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:00:29pm

re: #260 Targetpractice

Who, if he'd still been alive, probably would have run for a sixth.

And easily won it. If Dewey could not have defeated Truman what chance would he have had against FDR?

264 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:01:27pm

re: #257 freetoken

Hmmm... me thinks the Vatican is showing signs of worry:

Vatican paper weighs on 'Jesus' Wife' Coptic papyrus fragment: fake

Looked fake when I first saw it. Was it ever dated by anyone?

But yeah. Of course it's fake. The truth and historical fact is that Jesus was born of immaculate conception and never had a wife. //

265 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:01:35pm

Here is the Wiki:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

266 Lidane  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:02:09pm

re: #257 freetoken

Hmmm... me thinks the Vatican is showing signs of worry:

Vatican paper weighs on 'Jesus' Wife' Coptic papyrus fragment: fake

Because heaven forbid that Jesus, if he existed at all, lived a normal life and got married.

Of course, evidence of Jesus having a wife and her as one of his apostles would destroy the Vatican's reasoning for both celibate priests and a male only clergy would die instantly. No wonder they're quick to denounce it.

267 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:02:41pm

re: #261 Almost Killed by Space Hookers

There are several reasons this is "news".

First and foremost is that the fragment found, if authentic, would be the oldest fragment of a "gospel" to allude to Jesus being married.

Even though it would date to the end of the 4th, or perhaps 5th century, it would show that the Eastern churches had some parishes with that belief system.

The Roman church can not tolerate this.

The Vatican is calling it "fake" based on the teaching, not the papyrology.

What you are referring to is often called the Gospel of Mary.

re: #264 Gus

Only skilled papyrologists, assisted by dating of the papyrus material, will be able to determine the origins of the physical document.

268 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:04:06pm

re: #266 Lidane

Because heaven forbid that Jesus, if he existed at all, lived a normal life and got married.

Of course, evidence of Jesus having a wife and her as one of his apostles would destroy the Vatican's reasoning for both celibate priests and a male only clergy would die instantly. No wonder they're quick to denounce it.

Check this out:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

269 Lidane  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:04:06pm

re: #264 Gus

Looked fake when I first saw it. Was it ever dated by anyone?

But yeah. Of course it's fake. The truth and historical fact is that Jesus was born of immaculate conception and never had a wife. //

Actually, the Immaculate Conception applies to Mary, not Jesus.

Original Sin is passed down from the mother, because Eve was the first sinner. That means that in order for Jesus to be born without sin, Mary had to be born without sin first.

270 jaunte  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:05:21pm

re: #269 Lidane

Original Sin is passed down from the mother, because Eve was the first sinner.

"This is why men have to make the important decisions."
-- Todd Akin

271 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:05:48pm

re: #251 Almost Killed by Space Hookers

Anyway... Buy the book! Read the book! It does for Space Opera what Martin did for High Fantasy with the Tale of Ice and Fire.

Do remember that isn't necessarily a good review point to all of us...

Try to find an old copy of "Princes of the Air" by John M. Ford sometime. That's a glorious space opera that does, to me, what you say you like in this book.

272 jaunte  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:06:09pm

It's Satire!

273 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:06:25pm

re: #266 Lidane

Because heaven forbid that Jesus, if he existed at all, lived a normal life and got married.

Of course, evidence of Jesus having a wife and her as one of his apostles would destroy the Vatican's reasoning for both celibate priests and a male only clergy would die instantly. No wonder they're quick to denounce it.

Oops. Right. I meant the "perpetual virgin" thing.

274 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:06:42pm

Jesus, a Jewish dude from the heart of the ME, is portrayed as having blonde hair and blue eyes...
If your a winger, that makes sense.
But Elizabeth Warren declares she has some NA ancestry, and they crack (what they like to call) jokes...
Ok, I got it !!!
Constant cognitive dissonance causes brain damage.

275 Killgore Trout  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:06:47pm

re: #264 Gus

Looked fake when I first saw it. Was it ever dated by anyone?

But yeah. Of course it's fake. The truth and historical fact is that Jesus was born of immaculate conception and never had a wife. //

Of course the Vatican declares it a fake. JC having a chick was not unheard of in early Christianity. IIRC there are a few gnostic gospels that refer to JC taking a wife. After Constantine edited out those sections they went out of favor.

276 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:06:54pm

re: #267 freetoken

Free... I know... My point it that you have tensions with the view of Jesus being married referred to in a number of debates in the Early Church.

My point is that there are all sorts of things that were edited out or made non-canon by different Christian communities.

My point is that there is nothing new about an early Christian Sect thinking Jesus was married.

Consider also:

The Gospel of Thomas, Pistis Sophia, and the Coptic Gospel.

277 Lidane  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:07:18pm

re: #268 Almost Killed by Space Hookers

Check this out:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I've seen that. I read a few books by a woman named Elaine Pagels some years ago, and it was mentioned. Pagels has written extensively about the Gnostic gospels. Her book on the origin of Satan was interesting, IMO.

278 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:07:43pm

re: #275 Killgore Trout

Of course the Vatican declares it a fake. JC having a chick was not unheard of in early Christianity. IIRC there are a few gnostic gospels that refer to JC taking a wife. After Constantine edited out those sections they went out of favor.

I agree with Jon Stewart's analysis on this. ;)

279 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:09:12pm

re: #271 William Barnett-Lewis

Do remember that isn't necessarily a good review point to all of us...

Try to find an old copy of "Princes of the Air" by John M. Ford sometime. That's a glorious space opera that does, to me, what you say you like in this book.

Fair enough. This series is not Ice and Fire in space. It is much less hung up on political intrigues. What I mean by the comment (and mind you I love Ice and Fire) is that this series is fresh and revitalizing to the genre.

Seriously READ THE FUCKING BOOKS and prove me wrong. You won't regret it.

280 aagcobb  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:11:30pm

re: #183 engineer cat

Ancient statue discovered by Nazis is made from meteorite

Did Indy steal it from them?

281 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:11:52pm

re: #222 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

VAX/VMS systems are still chugging away here and there. When the company I work for purchased a few plants at the beginning of the year a VAX turned up connected to something over at a location in Germany. And they still haven't worked out how to replace using it.

I started my career on VAX/VMS systems, programming in Fortran. Haven't worked on one since Y2K.

282 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:11:57pm

re: #276 Almost Killed by Space Hookers

A better way, I think, to look at this whole issue isn't what was edited "out" as much as what was inscribed within.

The official dogmas of Christianity evolved in time, and circumscribing accepted beliefs became a central task of the leadership.

As with Islam and the origins of the Quran, which are dependent upon the pre-existence of Christianity, (particularly upon what are now considered heretical views of Jesus which were believed in that part of the world), the development of Christianity and the NT took place over a one to two century duration in which syncretism battled with exclusivism.

All of this takes away the magick, which makes adherents uncomfortable.

283 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:12:13pm

While I spent most of my week dealing with 1st World issues in my life, today I attended a charity luncheon. That forced me to focus beyond my world.

I'm still reeling from this.

I contribute stuff and purchase stuff regularly for our local Women's Shelter. I know intellectually what these women go thru. But for some reason, this story has permeated me.

And the GOP's behavior over the last Violence Against Women's Reauthorization Act is infuriating me even more.

How is everyone this evening?

284 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:13:06pm

Let's see. Someone thinks that Iran = Iraq therefore we should ignore it. Or something. I get confused sometimes.

285 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:13:19pm

re: #280 aagcobb

Did Indy steal it from them?

"Dr. Jones. Again we see there is nothing you can possess which I cannot take away."

286 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:14:17pm

re: #271 William Barnett-Lewis

Do remember that isn't necessarily a good review point to all of us...

Try to find an old copy of "Princes of the Air" by John M. Ford sometime. That's a glorious space opera that does, to me, what you say you like in this book.

I just finished the audio version of Sophie's World. It's a young adult novel, but I have a feeling you might enjoy it. I certainly did. May need to re-read it to truly pick-up on all it's nuances.

287 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:14:22pm

re: #117 freetoken

He's certainly skilled when talking about women:

Todd Akin says McCaskill debated like a 'wildcat,' not as 'ladylike'

He is a time traveler, visiting us from 1840's slave-owning Missouri. He hasn't got used to the idea that women can speak and Black people own their own selves.

288 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:14:49pm

So does this mean 2,000 years from now people will be finding written words of today and concluding they weren't fiction?

289 sagehen  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:14:51pm
290 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:16:05pm

Samuel L Jackson says Wake the Fuck Up!

291 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:16:20pm

re: #282 freetoken

A better way, I think, to look at this whole issue isn't what was edited "out" as much as what was inscribed within.

The official dogmas of Christianity evolved in time, and circumscribing accepted beliefs became a central task of the leadership.

As with Islam and the origins of the Quran, which are dependent upon the pre-existence of Christianity, (particularly upon what are now considered heretical views of Jesus which were believed in that part of the world), the development of Christianity and the NT took place over a one to two century duration in which syncretism battled with exclusivism.

All of this takes away the magick, which makes adherents uncomfortable.

Better without the magic.

292 Lidane  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:16:38pm

Since we're deep into OT territory, I had my face to face interview today. I think it went fairly well. We had a good conversation that was pretty relaxed. It really never felt like an interview, and I got on with both the person I'd share an office with and the hiring manager.

I should know in a week or so, since they still have two more people to talk to, but I'm hopeful.

293 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:17:19pm

"Princess OF Air"

$35 collectible for a ppback book isn't bad.

294 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:17:44pm

re: #282 freetoken

A better way, I think, to look at this whole issue isn't what was edited "out" as much as what was inscribed within.

The official dogmas of Christianity evolved in time, and circumscribing accepted beliefs became a central task of the leadership.

As with Islam and the origins of the Quran, which are dependent upon the pre-existence of Christianity, (particularly upon what are now considered heretical views of Jesus which were believed in that part of the world), the development of Christianity and the NT took place over a one to two century duration in which syncretism battled with exclusivism.

All of this takes away the magick, which makes adherents uncomfortable.

Look! A piece of papyrus that reads "Jesus had a wife..." and then stops. It must be true!

//

295 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:19:03pm

re: #288 Gus

So does this mean 2,000 years from now people will be finding written words of today and concluding they weren't fiction?

Yep. History has a way of turning into myth.

296 aagcobb  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:20:19pm

re: #215 Tigger2005

Obama actually stands a better chance of being re-elected (and maybe doing more to address climate change) by NOT making it an issue right now. Sad but true. Really, if you want to move at all forward, even if it is baby steps, you have to vote O (and give him a Congress he can work with). The alternative is to take several giant leaps backward.

Good luck getting a Congress he can work with. State legislatures controlled by the GOP gerrymandered lots of safe GOP districts. The only thing those congressman have to fear is someone getting to their right and accusing them of being a RINO in the primaries, which means they have to act insane and pledge not to cooperate with the black muslim usurper in any way.

297 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:20:26pm

re: #295 Reverend Mother Ramallo

Yep. History has a way of turning into myth.

Or in this case myth, or who knows what, turning into history. This could mean anything. It could be someone's play, "Jesus and His Wife." A comedy-drama.

298 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:22:02pm

re: #294 Gus

Look! A piece of papyrus that reads "Jesus had a wife..." and then stops. It must be true!

//

What get's me is that just because he didn't have a wife doesn't mean he wasn't a virgin. The use of prostitutes in that time in history was thought of differently that it is today.

Even for devout religious men --and remember Jesus travelled as a carpenter and had his 'spiritual awakening' in his twenties. I have a hard time imagining that a financially stable working class family didn't arrange a marrige for their most eligible son. What kind of Jewish Mother was Mary?

And guess what, these thoughts don't challenge my personal faith or make me want to do bad things. To me, Jesus was still a guy who did good things and left a good example for humans to follow. IMHO, he was a human being.

299 aagcobb  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:22:37pm

re: #224 Almost Killed by Space Hookers

LVQ! You are the expert. Are we all doomed because the Artic will be totally ice free in 3-4 years?

300 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:23:14pm

re: #297 Gus

Or in this case myth, or who knows what, turning into history. This could mean anything. It could be someone's play, "Jesus and His Wife." A comedy-drama.

Yep.
Makes you wonder if someday people will actually believe that Lincoln was a zombie slayer.

301 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:24:47pm

re: #300 Reverend Mother Ramallo

Yep.
Makes you wonder if someday people will actually believe that Lincoln was a zombie slayer.

this presupposes people will believe in Zombies?

302 Decatur Deb  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:25:45pm

re: #300 Reverend Mother Ramallo

Yep.
Makes you wonder if someday people will actually believe that Lincoln was a zombie slayer.

All that will survive of our times will be a half-eaten copy of "The Wit And Wisdom of President Romney".

303 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:26:21pm

re: #301 ggt

this presupposes people will believe in Zombies?

Oh, the zombies are comin' !
You'll see...
You'll all see !

304 MittDoesNotCompute  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:30:00pm

re: #285 Targetpractice

"Dr. Jones. Again we see there is nothing you can possess which I cannot take away."

Yes, right before their faces melt off and their heads explode.

305 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:31:34pm

re: #303 Reverend Mother Ramallo

Oh, the zombies are comin' !
You'll see...
You'll all see !

I have a friend who's uncle has a friend who works for the government.
He said Obama is covering up the fact that there was...

How the hell do people maintain conspiracy theories?
I just gave myself a nose bleed.

306 Kronocide  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:32:31pm

Caveman sez whut?

But Akin handed new fundraising fodder to his foes by suggesting that Sen. Claire McCaskill had behaved in a less "ladylike" manner than she has in the past. But Akin handed new fundraising fodder to his foes by suggesting that Sen. Claire McCaskill had behaved in a less "ladylike" manner than she has in the past.

Continues to step in it and still receives support from GOP.

307 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:36:30pm

re: #257 freetoken

Hmmm... me thinks the Vatican is showing signs of worry:

Vatican paper weighs on 'Jesus' Wife' Coptic papyrus fragment: fake

I think not. they've had to deal with this BS before. Frankly, I think Dan Brown and the conspiracists have poisoned the well for this sort of thing. Even if the document were true, it would likely be treated by most people as a conspiracist DERP.

308 MittDoesNotCompute  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:36:56pm

re: #306 Kronocide

Caveman sez whut?

Continues to step in it and still receives support from GOP.

Because they (the GOP) are asking for it...

/but is it "legitimate"?

309 Lidane  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:37:46pm

re: #306 Kronocide

Continues to step in it and still receives support from GOP.

What else are they going to do? They want McCaskill gone and it's too late for them to run anyone else, so they have to support him.

Not that they ever really opposed him anyway. They didn't care about his ignorance or misogyny. They cared that he said what they really think out loud.

310 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:40:42pm

re: #304 Gert Fröbe

Yes, right before their faces melt off and their heads explode.

311 Lidane  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:40:50pm

re: #307 Dark_Falcon

You mean they've suppressed these kinds of things before.

Let's not bullshit ourselves. The Bible, in terms of what books are in it, was created by committee in a series of political meetings. They chose the books they wanted to include, and left out the ones that disagreed with the message they wanted to have. That included a lot of gospels that they chose to ignore or call heretical.

312 jaunte  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:41:36pm

Scott Brown fans can't let go of the Indian jokes
[Link: twitter.com...]

313 aagcobb  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:41:44pm

re: #250 Decatur Deb

It's satire.

I think its pretty accurate. If in the first debate Romney manages to avoid discussing his favorite recipes for preparing baby orphans to serve at the meetings of the billionaire cannibals club, he will have "exceeded expectations" and thereby "won" the debate.

314 Kragar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:42:46pm

re: #310 Dark_Falcon

[Embedded content]

Image: Hovitos.jpg

315 Kronocide  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:44:09pm

re: #312 jaunte

Scott Brown fans can't let go of the Indian jokes
[Link: twitter.com...]

Saw that 15 minutes ago, they're doubling down. Pretty ugly.

316 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:44:21pm

re: #305 Reverend Mother Ramallo

I have a friend who's uncle has a friend who works for the government.
He said Obama is covering up the fact that there was...

How the hell do people maintain conspiracy theories?
I just gave myself a nose bleed.

"Some People Say" is not a credible Source

via fb barb against Fox News.

317 Interesting Times  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:45:02pm

re: #312 jaunte

Scott Brown fans can't let go of the Indian jokes
[Link: twitter.com...]

318 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:46:05pm
The Jibito people are a tribe of South American Indians, first met with by the Franciscans in 1676 in the forest near the Huallaga River, in the Peruvian province of Loreto. After their conversion, they settled in villages on the western bank of the river.

They were fictionalized as the Hovitos in the film Raiders of the Lost Ark.

319 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:46:38pm
320 ReamWorks SKG  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:46:49pm

And in Pamela Geller news (Pamela was apparently behind these posters):

I think the posters serve no good purpose, but I'm also amused by the activists perception of what "freedom of expression" is all about.

321 Interesting Times  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:47:11pm

Heh (and yes, I know it's the parody JRubin account - I'm posting it for the picture :) )

322 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:48:15pm

re: #311 Lidane

You mean they've suppressed these kinds of things before.

Let's not bullshit ourselves. The Bible, in terms of what books are in it, was created by committee in a series of political meetings. They chose the books they wanted to include, and left out the ones that disagreed with the message they wanted to have. That included a lot of gospels that they chose to ignore or call heretical.

B,b,b,but . . .

323 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:48:33pm

re: #321 Interesting Times

Heh (and yes, I know it's the parody JRubin account - I'm posting it for the picture :) )

[Embedded content]

324 jaunte  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:50:04pm

Smash.

Jim Webb drops the hammer on Romney

...Those young Marines that I led have grown older now. They’ve lived lives of courage, both in combat and after their return, where many of them were derided by their own peers for having served. That was a long time ago. They are not bitter. They know what they did. But in receiving veterans’ benefits, they are not takers. They were givers, in the ultimate sense of that word. There is a saying among war veterans: “All gave some, some gave all.” This is not a culture of dependency. It is a part of a long tradition that gave this country its freedom and independence. They paid, some with their lives, some through wounds and disabilities, some through their emotional scars, some through the lost opportunities and delayed entry into civilian careers which had already begun for many of their peers who did not serve.

And not only did they pay. They will not say this, so I will say it for them. They are owed, if nothing else, at least a mention, some word of thanks and respect, when a presidential candidate who is their generational peer makes a speech accepting his party’s nomination to be commander-in-chief. And they are owed much more than that — a guarantee that we will never betray the commitment that we made to them and to their loved ones.

325 aagcobb  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:50:33pm

re: #319 Gus

What. The. Fuck.

Conn. man kills masked boy, finds out it's his son

That just makes me feel sick.

326 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:51:07pm

re: #325 aagcobb

That just makes me feel sick.

Like a freaking horror movie.

327 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:51:36pm

re: #324 jaunte

IIRC, Jim Webb is a 2nd Amendmend die-hard proponent. I remember thinking he had higher aspirations . . .

328 Lidane  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:52:18pm

re: #319 Gus

What. The. Fuck.

Conn. man kills masked boy, finds out it's his son

That guy's going to spend a lot of time on suicide watch. Holy shit.

I can't even imagine any of that.

329 Kronocide  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:52:28pm

Dude (and most of the RW Blogosphere) did not mature much past 12.

330 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:52:45pm

re: #311 Lidane

You mean they've suppressed these kinds of things before.

Let's not bullshit ourselves. The Bible, in terms of what books are in it, was created by committee in a series of political meetings. They chose the books they wanted to include, and left out the ones that disagreed with the message they wanted to have. That included a lot of gospels that they chose to ignore or call heretical.

Oh, that fact cannot be doubted. The council of Nicea was very much a political event. Religious considerations were foremost, but politics was second.

331 Charles Johnson  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:53:08pm

And now ... SORRROOOOSSSSS....

332 Lidane  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:53:11pm

re: #327 ggt

IIRC, Jim Webb is a 2nd Amendmend die-hard proponent. I remember thinking he had higher aspirations . . .

He was Secretary of the Navy under Reagan, wasn't he? It was a big deal when he ran for office as a Democrat.

333 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:53:38pm

re: #325 aagcobb

That just makes me feel sick.

A person killing a family member makes the news every once in a while.

Tragic.

Usually happens at night and I always wonder if alcohol was involved. I have issues with guns and alcohol. Men (usually) wake-up, get freaked-out and if alcohol is still in their system--nothing good can come of it.

334 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:54:22pm

re: #331 Charles Johnson

And now ... SORRROOOOSSSSS....

Oh my God, Soros spent money on the election!

We're all doomed!

///

335 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:54:56pm

re: #332 Lidane

He was Secretary of the Navy under Reagan, wasn't he? It was a big deal when he ran for office as a Democrat.

Yep.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

336 jaunte  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:55:28pm

re: #331 Charles Johnson

Dr. Evil voice: "Soros has contributed... One MIllion Dollars!"

337 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:56:02pm

re: #334 Targetpractice

Oh my God, Soros spent money on the election!

We're all doomed!

///

Anyone remember and know how to find that graphic showing the richest political contributors in the country? Koch brothers (who at the right hand of G-d according to the GOP) are at the very top and Soros (who is the biggest threat since Hitler according to the GOP) is near the bottom third.

338 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:56:25pm

re: #331 Charles Johnson

And now ... SORRROOOOSSSSS....

Oh brother...

It is no coincidence that this week, President Obama refused to meet again and again with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Soros is famously and rabidly anti-Israel. He despises Netanyahu. He is one of the chief funders of the anti-Israel group J Street, which poses as a pro-Israel group while stumping for non-action on Iran. Soros’ cash is feeding Obama’s anti-Israel politics.

339 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:56:30pm

re: #332 Lidane

He was Secretary of the Navy under Reagan, wasn't he? It was a big deal when he ran for office as a Democrat.

Perhaps he took a sanity pill?

I don't remember thinking he was that old . . .

340 Kronocide  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:57:01pm

Bibi was Snubbed! Snubbed I sez!

341 Charles Johnson  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:57:07pm

re: #336 jaunte

Dr. Evil voice: "Soros has contributed... One MIllion Dollars!"

Meanwhile, Sheldon Adelson has pledged up to $100 million to elect Mitt Romney.

342 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:57:10pm

re: #331 Charles Johnson

And now ... SORRROOOOSSSSS....

if you think that Citizens United was correctly decided, then its hard to object to this. Assuming you'd rather not look like a lunatic, of course.

343 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:57:24pm

re: #319 Gus

What. The. Fuck.

Conn. man kills masked boy, finds out it's his son

A very sad turn of events. Unfortunately, I have to lay the blame for this incident squarely on the kids shoulders and that may not set well with some of you.

"A woman who was alone in the house believed someone was breaking in and called the teen’s father, who lives next door, and he grabbed a gun and went outside to investigate, police said.

The father confronted someone wearing a black ski mask and black clothing and then fired his gun when the person went at him with a shiny weapon in his hand, police said."

Ignorance can be cured. Stupidity is often fatal.

344 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:58:12pm

Jim Webb looks good for 65 --think it's a toupee?

345 Kronocide  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:58:22pm

So if Soros is that evil, won't he give Adelson sized $ to Obama and not let anybody know about it?

Hm....

346 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:59:03pm

re: #343 Bubblehead II

A very sad turn of events. Unfortunately, I have to lay the blame for this incident squarely on the kids shoulders and that may not set well with some of you.

"A woman who was alone in the house believed someone was breaking in and called the teen’s father, who lives next door, and he grabbed a gun and went outside to investigate, police said.

The father confronted someone wearing a black ski mask and black clothing and then fired his gun when the person went at him with a shiny weapon in his hand, police said."


Ignorance can be cured. Stupidity is often fatal.

I can't see the cops behaving differently in this situation. . . .

Another reason we need stun gun technology for personal defense. Why isn't this available?

347 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:59:05pm

re: #342 Dark_Falcon

if you think that Citizens United was correctly decided, then its hard to object to this. Assuming you'd rather not look like a lunatic, of course.

I don't agree with Citizen's United, but I also can't get over the humor of watching wingnuts freak out because Soros put $1.5 million into the elections.

348 jaunte  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:59:59pm

Adelson's already in for $70 million.

349 Charles Johnson  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:00:14pm

re: #347 Targetpractice

I don't agree with Citizen's United, but I also can't get over the humor of watching wingnuts freak out because Soros put $1.5 million into the elections.

In this election, $1.5 million barely gets you in the door.

350 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:01:02pm

re: #349 Charles Johnson

In this election, $1.5 million barely gets you in the door.

It won't even buy a bridge across a drainage ditch.

351 engineer cat  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:02:36pm

nate the great from five thirty eight tells us what's what:

What to think of the Rasmussen poll? Their surveys usually have a Republican lean, but it seems to have gotten stronger in the last few weeks. It has also been stronger in some years than others. Rasmussen got reasonably good results in years like 2006 and 2008 when their polls were close to the consensus. However, their polls were the least accurate of the major polling firms in 2010, when they had an especially strong Republican house-effect. The same was true in 2000, when they had a three- or four-point statistical bias toward Republican candidates...

352 Kronocide  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:02:42pm

re: #349 Charles Johnson

In this election, $1.5 million barely gets you in the door.

It should at least get you a Romney Plane window seat that opens.

353 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:03:34pm

re: #346 ggt

I can't see the cops behaving differently in this situation. . . .

Another reason we need stun gun technology for personal defense. Why isn't this available?

They are available, but most require you to close with you attacker in order to use them. And those that actually shoot a dart are damn expensive.

354 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:04:13pm

re: #343 Bubblehead II

A very sad turn of events. Unfortunately, I have to lay the blame for this incident squarely on the kids shoulders and that may not set well with some of you.

"A woman who was alone in the house believed someone was breaking in and called the teen’s father, who lives next door, and he grabbed a gun and went outside to investigate, police said.

The father confronted someone wearing a black ski mask and black clothing and then fired his gun when the person went at him with a shiny weapon in his hand, police said."

Ignorance can be cured. Stupidity is often fatal.

Lunge at someone with a blade, and they are automatically justified in using deadly force, with few exceptions. This is a clear case of defense of self and another person. Like you said, stupidity is often fatal.

355 MittDoesNotCompute  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:05:04pm

re: #352 Kronocide

It should at least get you a Romney Plane window seat that opens.

Nah, it'll just get you a spot on the roof of the plane, the Seamus Special.

///

356 jamesfirecat  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:06:23pm

re: #342 Dark_Falcon

if you think that Citizens United was correctly decided, then its hard to object to this. Assuming you'd rather not look like a lunatic, of course.

Or you could just be like your presidential candidate and believe that its okay when groups of people spend money to support him, but not when they do it to support democrats.

Take the same hypocrisy and apply it to the 1% of the 1%.

357 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:06:38pm

re: #346 ggt

I can't see the cops behaving differently in this situation. . . .

Another reason we need stun gun technology for personal defense. Why isn't this available?

Stun guns don't always work. Once someone has drawn a knife and is moving to attack you, you need to put him down hard and fast. If you use a stun gun and it doesn't work, then you're going to get cut up, likely badly.

358 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:07:39pm

re: #356 jamesfirecat

Or you could just be like your presidential candidate and believe that its okay when groups of people spend money to support him, but not when they do it to support democrats.

Take the same hypocrisy and apply it to the 1% of the 1%.

I'm voting for Mitt, but I can't be like him. We have different personalities.

359 dragonath  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:08:56pm

re: #183 engineer cat

Ancient statue discovered by Nazis is made from meteorite

Cool, I just did some reading up on that kind of meteorite, and it turns out it can be polished to mirror-like reflectivity.

360 jamesfirecat  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:09:04pm

re: #358 Dark_Falcon

I'm voting for Mitt, but I can't be like him. We have different personalities.

Yes you at least are able to recognize when you are unable to make a fair judgement on some issues, Mitt Romney has no such redeeming feature.

361 jaunte  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:09:24pm
362 Kronocide  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:11:31pm

#OnObamasWatch

Had a bunion
ran out of beer
got a flat tire

363 sagehen  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:11:32pm

re: #339 ggt

Perhaps he took a sanity pill?

I don't remember thinking he was that old . . .

He's a Vietnam vet.

364 ozbloke  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:11:38pm

re: #343 Bubblehead II

A very sad turn of events. Unfortunately, I have to lay the blame for this incident squarely on the kids shoulders and that may not set well with some of you.

"A woman who was alone in the house believed someone was breaking in and called the teen’s father, who lives next door, and he grabbed a gun and went outside to investigate, police said.

The father confronted someone wearing a black ski mask and black clothing and then fired his gun when the person went at him with a shiny weapon in his hand, police said."

Ignorance can be cured. Stupidity is often fatal.

Certainly the child won't be giving his side of the story.

365 Targetpractice  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:12:21pm

re: #362 Kronocide

#OnObamasWatch

Had a bunion
ran out of beer
got a flat tire

And that was just Monday.

//

366 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:13:10pm

re: #353 Bubblehead II

They are available, but most require you to close with you attacker in order to use them. And those that actually shoot a dart are damn expensive.

Ok, ggt moment, I confess. I was thinking Phasers --like Star Trek.

There just isn't a good reason we don't have this available. If we can be particles from one place to another. We know the make-up of the rings of Saturn. We have a black man in the White House.

DAMNIT!

367 Kronocide  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:13:26pm

#OnObamasWatch lost my iPhone, replaced it, cracked the screen

368 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:14:19pm

re: #362 Kronocide

#OnObamasWatch

Had a bunion
ran out of beer
got a flat tire

dog ate my homework

369 Tigger2005  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:15:48pm

I wonder if people will ever accept the obvious, which is that there was no actual human being called Jesus at the root of Christianity.

The earliest extant Christian documents are the letters and epistles. Save for three passages, two of which are likely later interpolations and one which is likely describing a mythical scene, none of the letters and epistles make reference to Jesus Christ as a person who had lived on Earth in the recent past. Instead they speak of Jesus as a divine being revealed through scripture and inspiration, who carried out his saving activities in the spiritual realm...similar to other savior gods of the age.

Only in Acts, a fictional origin story for Christianity, do we find people speaking of the beginnings of the faith the way you would expect them to--tracing the movement back to Jesus' ministry, crucifixion, and alleged resurrection. But Acts was written long after the letters and epistles, and after the Gospels...which also came after the letters and epistles...had been circulating for some time. Acts was written primarily for political reasons...to give apostolic authority to the Roman church.

As for the Gospels themselves, scholarship has pretty conclusively determined that "Mark" was written first and the other authors copied from him. Even John is heavily dependent on Mark. In other words...had there been no Mark...there might well have never have been any Gospels. This is a very odd state of affairs. If Christianity had started with actual person about whom memories, stories and anecdotes were passed along by word of mouth, why would we not have truly independent accounts of his life? Mark, Matthew, Luke, and especially John all have different "takes" on Jesus...even though they copy large swaths of Mark and borrow heavily from his narrative structure, Matthew, Luke and, again, especially John have no qualms about changing or reordering Mark's account as they see fit. Why did they not simply all write their own accounts, entirely in their own words, based on the stories and traditions about Jesus that were circulating within their own faith communities, the better to get their own individual perspectives on Jesus across?

Think of it this way...there have been many books written about Abraham Lincoln. The authors have undoubtedly consulted many of the same reference works, and they all include many of the same events in their books, but some include events that others leave out, some place more emphasis on certain events than others, etc. But what they do not do is go back to the first book written about Lincoln and copy huge chunks of it. Obviously there was much less concern about plagiarism in the ancient world, BUT...had Jesus existed in the very recent past, had his story spread far and wide among Jews and Gentiles alike as the legendary account of the origin and spread of Christianity states, then the Gospel writers would not have lacked for sources from which to construct their own accounts. They would not have relied so heavily on a single source, Mark.

Some claim that Occam's Razor decrees that the "simplest" explanation is that there was an actual human figure at the root of Christianity. But, in fact, the evidence we have better fits an explanation that excludes such a figure. Paul and the other epistle writers know nothing about him. They tell us in no uncertain terms who the object of their faith is--again, an entirely spiritual figure revealed through scripture and inspired visions

370 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:18:57pm

re: #369 Tigger2005

I wonder if people will ever accept the obvious, which is that there was no actual human being called Jesus at the root of Christianity.

The earliest extant Christian documents are the letters and epistles. Save for three passages, two of which are likely later interpolations and one which is likely describing a mythical scene, none of the letters and epistles make reference to Jesus Christ as a person who had lived on Earth in the recent past. Instead they speak of Jesus as a divine being revealed through scripture and inspiration, who carried out his saving activities in the spiritual realm...similar to other savior gods of the age.

Only in Acts, a fictional origin story for Christianity, do we find people speaking of the beginnings of the faith the way you would expect them to--tracing the movement back to Jesus' ministry, crucifixion, and alleged resurrection. But Acts was written long after the letters and epistles, and after the Gospels...which also came after the letters and epistles...had been circulating for some time. Acts was written primarily for political reasons...to give apostolic authority to the Roman church.

As for the Gospels themselves, scholarship has pretty conclusively determined that "Mark" was written first and the other authors copied from him. Even John is heavily dependent on Mark. In other words...had there been no Mark...there might well have never have been any Gospels. This is a very odd state of affairs. If Christianity had started with actual person about whom memories, stories and anecdotes were passed along by word of mouth, why would we not have truly independent accounts of his life? Mark, Matthew, Luke, and especially John all have different "takes" on Jesus...even though they copy large swaths of Mark and borrow heavily from his narrative structure, Matthew, Luke and, again, especially John have no qualms about changing or reordering Mark's account as they see fit. Why did they not simply all write their own accounts, entirely in their own words, based on the stories and traditions about Jesus that were circulating within their own faith communities, the better to get their own individual perspectives on Jesus across?

Think of it this way...there have been many books written about Abraham Lincoln. The authors have undoubtedly consulted many of the same reference works, and they all include many of the same events in their books, but some include events that others leave out, some place more emphasis on certain events than others, etc. But what they do not do is go back to the first book written about Lincoln and copy huge chunks of it. Obviously there was much less concern about plagiarism in the ancient world, BUT...had Jesus existed in the very recent past, had his story spread far and wide among Jews and Gentiles alike as the legendary account of the origin and spread of Christianity states, then the Gospel writers would not have lacked for sources from which to construct their own accounts. They would not have relied so heavily on a single source, Mark.

Some claim that Occam's Razor decrees that the "simplest" explanation is that there was an actual human figure at the root of Christianity. But, in fact, the evidence we have better fits an explanation that excludes such a figure. Paul and the other epistle writers know nothing about him. They tell us in no uncertain terms who the object of their faith is--again, an entirely spiritual figure revealed through scripture and inspired visions

Myth is usually based on fact. There was a Helen of Troy. She did launch a thousand ships. There just as easily coud have been a Jesus --who gave the Sermon on the Mount. Ascending into Heaven? --Yeah I don't buy that either.

371 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:22:33pm

re: #364 ozbloke

Certainly the child won't be giving his side of the story.

No he won't. More the pity. I would like to know just what the hell he was thinking. As much as I hate to think it, there is a chance that this was an attempt to kill his own mother. Why else was he dressed as he was and armed with a knife while trying to enter his own home? It has happened before.

I have been shown to be wrong on this by Kirkspencer and there fore stand corrected.

372 Kronocide  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:23:12pm

#OnObamasWatch Alinsky!

373 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:28:19pm

re: #372 Kronocide

#OnObamasWatch Alinsky!

On Obama's watch. I saw a man going from my then right wing inspired worst of expectations to becoming a very fine damn president of these here United States of America.

374 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:29:14pm

"Of" obviously. //

375 Kragar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:29:55pm

Just played the XCOM demo.

376 kirkspencer  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:30:09pm

re: #371 Bubblehead II

No he won't. More the pity. I would like to know just what the hell he was thinking. As much as I hate to think it, there is a chance that this was an attempt to kill his own mother. Why else was he dressed as he was and armed with a knife while trying to enter his own home? It has happened before.

Reread the story. The woman was a next door neighbor who lived alone.

Now, was it a burglary? An attempted assault/rape? "Fun"? Don't know enough yet.

What we know - no, what's alleged - is that the kid turned and saw somebody and, with weapon in hand, lunged in attack.

Sad thing for the father, but that dance was doomed regardless how it turned out.

377 engineer cat  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:30:18pm

re: #369 Tigger2005

i'm an atheist, but my conclusion is that the simplest explanation would be that there was an actual person at the origin of the jesus story

to my way of thinking, if you apply occam's razor you will find that the way it slices, the explanation required for the jesus story being made up out of whole cloth is rather more elaborate than the explanation for there having been such a person

378 Kragar  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:31:23pm

re: #377 engineer cat

i'm an atheist, but my conclusion is that the simplest explanation would be that there was an actual person at the origin of the jesus story

to my way of thinking, if you apply occam's razor you will find that the way it slices, the explanation required for the jesus story being made up out of whole cloth is rather more elaborate than the explanation for there having been such a person

Plenty of historical evidence pointing to the existence of the man without imbuing him with supernatural powers

379 engineer cat  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:33:50pm

re: #378 Kragar

Plenty of historical evidence pointing to the existence of the man without imbuing him with supernatural powers

yeah - i tend to imagine a great speaker and innovative philosopher who people insisted on turning into a faith healer as well

380 Tigger2005  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:35:02pm

(cont) So you might ask, whither Mark? If Jesus didn't exist, why did Mark write his Gospel, why did he put it in an actual Earthly setting, why did he include certain historical figures? Why did he bring the mythical, cosmic Christ to Earth?

It makes more sense to ask, why not? The Gentiles had their stories about their gods walking the Earth and acting like people. The Greek philosophers had long since declared that these accounts were mythical and allegorical. Mark was a brilliant writer, fusing two distinct faith traditions--the Kingdom preaching movement and the salvation movement--into a single story. He was clearly writing an allegory, because practically everything he has Jesus say or do can be traced to the Jewish scriptures. This is how he constructs his story, and particularly his Passion narrative. He never meant it to be taken literally...he was simply conveying the essence of his and his community's faith in what turned out to be highly effective manner.

381 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:36:20pm

Israel needs a new PM.

382 Mentis Fugit  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:37:33pm

re: #11 engineer cat

-> leads maraudering warriors on horseback to conquer vast territories
-> executes traitors and captives ruthlessly after horrific tortures
-> pillages many peaceful towns and distributes the booty to his followers
-> has a vast collection of wives and concubines to help spread his seed far and wide throughout the land

GENGHIS/KUBLAI 2012
YES WE KHAN!

383 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:39:36pm

re: #376 kirkspencer

I stand corrected and the post has been edited to show same.

384 Tigger2005  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 8:08:41pm

re: #370 ggt

Myth is usually based on fact. There was a Helen of Troy. She did launch a thousand ships. There just as easily coud have been a Jesus --who gave the Sermon on the Mount. Ascending into Heaven? --Yeah I don't buy that either.

But you're missing the point. The evidence simply doesn't support Christianity originating with a human figure, even if we allow that this human figure didn't actually do or say all the things attributed to him. The earliest extant Christian documents make no reference to such a figure. There is no sign of "legendary development." In the earliest Christian documents available we have the full-blown Cosmic Christ through whom all things were made, who holds all things together through the power of his word. There's no indication whatsoever that this awesome being had recently concluded a 30-odd year sojourn as a human being on Earth. How could they possibly fail to mention this, in letter after letter after letter?

Again, Paul tells us in no uncertain terms where his knowledge of Christ comes from--it comes from the sacred Scriptures and from personal revelation. He declares that his Gospel came from "no man."

Sure, Mark might have modeled his Gospel Jesus partly on actual preachers and miracle-workers, but that is clearly not the same thing. That's like writing a story about a fictional spy but basing the character on several actual spies to lend authenticity.

385 freetoken  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 8:59:39pm

re: #369 Tigger2005

You've written quite a bit to dig into, and it's clear you've been reading some of the Jesus myth stuff out there (and there is quite a bit), but I want to encourage you to work out a few of the knottier issues.

For example:

I wonder if people will ever accept the obvious, which is that there was no actual human being called Jesus at the root of Christianity.

I suspect this won't stand up under scrutiny. Indeed, I think the reality is just the opposite - not that there was no "Jesus" (an Anglicized name of a Latin name variant of the Greek translation of a Hebrew name - whew), but that there were many "Jesus"s.

It was after all a very common name, and the NT mentions more than one.

Using the Anglicized names, the story of the 4 canonized Gospels is written around a family, two cousins (according to Luke) named John and Jesus, set in the period of the overlapping reigns of Pilate (the Roman ruler) and Herod (the claimant to the Jewish seat of authority). The former cousin is portrayed as the enemy the latter elite, while the younger cousin is cast as a victim of (a manipulated) Pilate.

Now, during the time of Pilate were there, around Jerusalem somewhere, two relatives, Elizabeth and Mary, who each had a son (John and Jesus, respectively) who grew up to each run afoul of one of the two leaders?

Possibly, and this part of the Mark-Luke story easily falls within the realm of the kind of things that one would expect in a turbulent society.

Given that the first written version of the four Gospels probably only saw paper at least 50 years after the period in which the story is set, it shares its nature with the other religious writings to come out of that region - the earlier Jewish writings, and the later Koran.

Indeed, I think it is worthwhile to look at the larger picture, a time span of around 900 years covering the SE levant. The religions are intermixed and as they stand today depend on cultural admixture between them, and they are fundamentally variants of the same ideas. Not only are there strong parallels between the formations of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam relative to their holy books, but there are direct causalities.

That dispossessed Jews of the first century include those who were into mysticism (angels, demons, miracles), and that they had to (because of physical relocation) merge with a (often nominally) polytheistic Roman world, became a source for "Christianity". It was not just the writings of Paul/Saul - according to the story a teacher of the Law ( of the type called Pharisee) - which formed Christianity. I think it is more accurate historically to write of Christianities, all local religious communities that blended 1st century Judaism (in variants) with their own Hellenized thinking (with its own variants).

This is why we get so many doctrinal issues even early in the second century - because the origin was diverse from the very beginning.

There is so much to write on this topic (I know, I've promised Pages yet to be delivered.) But there is importance here that is being overlooked in our (American) public discussions, for even the recent death of Amb. Stevens is in some small part due to the continued conflict over these stories.

We are more tied to the past, and in particular our religious past, than we like to admit in public.


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