Candy Crowley Interjects: Obama ‘Did in Fact’ Say Libya Attack Was Terrorism

Politics • Views: 27,891

Good for the moderator! I posted the video the day after the attack, yet simple minded people are still droning on about this because they are seemingly incapable of considering that the attack in Benghazi was two things at once.

Some of the people were there in reaction to the movie, and some of the people were there for a terror attack. Both can be true, they are not mutually exclusive. To play political gotcha over this just demonstrates how thoroughly weak the GOP is on foreign policy. Quibbling over semantics really doesn’t demonstrate strength so it’s time for the mewling pukes in the GOP to stop regurgitating this.

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451 comments
1 Destro  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:04:41pm

The right is trying to save Romney's fuck up on the fact that Obama said "acts of terror" as if that is somehow different than saying "terrorists". Because the right wing is so stupid with the English language they need the president to dumb it down to a kindergarden level. They want the president to be like Bush and use baby words like "evil doers", "bad guys" or to borrow a line from "Blazing Saddles: rustlers, cutthroats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, half-wits, dim-wits, vipers, snipers, con men, indian agents, mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwackers, hornswagglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass kickers, shit kickers, and methodists!

But don't use words of allusion like "acts of terror"!!!!

Actual Obama transcript:

No acts of terror will ever shake the resolve of this great nation, alter that character, or eclipse the light of the values that we stand for. Today we mourn four more Americans who represent the very best of the United States of America. We will not waver in our commitment to see that justice is done for this terrible act. And make no mistake, justice will be done.

2 Targetpractice  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:32:15pm

Just the look on his face when she interjected and Obama asked her repeat it was hilarious. Willard truly thought he had Obama backed into corner, thought he could get away with such a whopper. But then Lucy yanked away the football and Charlie Brown ended up flat on his back again.

3 JamesWI  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:33:07pm

Reposted from downstairs:

.....

So that's THREE DAYS IN A ROW after the attack, Obama personally calling it an act of terror. Jay Carney saying something stupid doesn't cancel that out.

But Politifact says "Obama didn't say it was an act of terror for 2 weeks" .....HALF TRUE.

Yes Killgore, Politifact is a fucking joke. This is why your reliance on "fact-checkers" is pointless. Because they don't even bother checking the facts.

4 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:34:19pm

He looked like a fool on that. Hopefully come January, we'll talk about that as one of the moments that the American people decided they didn't want this clown as their president.

5 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:38:05pm

I just watched and undecided focus group on MSNBC and its official: If you are undecided, you are an idiot. These had to have been the dumbest people ever. Not a single one of them had anything intelligent to say. They should be banned from voting they were so stupid. I can't believe these people may decide the fate of the nation.

6 freetoken  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:38:22pm

re: #1 Destro

The right is trying to save Romney's fuck up on the fact that Obama said "acts of terror" as if that is somehow different than saying "terrorists".

Many of them are spinning tonight about "plants".

7 Charles Johnson  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:38:25pm

re: #3 JamesWI

Reposted from downstairs:

[Embedded content]

So that's THREE DAYS IN A ROW after the attack, Obama personally calling it an act of terror. Jay Carney saying something stupid doesn't cancel that out.

But Politifact says "Obama didn't say it was an act of terror for 2 weeks" .....HALF TRUE.

Yes Killgore, Politifact is a fucking joke. This is why your reliance on "fact-checkers" is pointless. Because they don't even both checking the facts.

Politifact really disgraced themselves with this one.

8 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:39:30pm

re: #3 JamesWI

KT doesn't care. Politifact feeds his "Concerns". Therefore their FACTS are TRUTH. Truthiness, I suppose? Truth, honor or reality has nothing to do with it.

I just wonder if KT will come "out" for Mittens before or after the election.

9 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:40:17pm

re: #3 JamesWI

Reposted from downstairs:

[Embedded content]

So that's THREE DAYS IN A ROW after the attack, Obama personally calling it an act of terror. Jay Carney saying something stupid doesn't cancel that out.

But Politifact says "Obama didn't say it was an act of terror for 2 weeks" .....HALF TRUE.

Yes Killgore, Politifact is a fucking joke. This is why your reliance on "fact-checkers" is pointless. Because they don't even bother checking the facts.

Was it Polifact who "fact-checked" President Clinton by bringing up the Lewinsky affair?

10 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:40:37pm
Politifact performs fact checking: Mostly False.
11 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:41:16pm

Another massive flip flop:

ROMNEY: I'd just note that I don't believe that bureaucrats in Washington should tell someone whether they can use contraceptives or not. And I don't believe employers should tell someone whether they could have contraceptive care of not. Every woman in America should have access to contraceptives. And -- and the -- and the president's statement of my policy is completely and totally wrong.

Really? Then why did Romney voice his unequivocal support for the Blunt Amendment?:

A few weeks later, with a vote on the Blunt amendment pending, Romney was asked where he stood. He told a Boston radio interviewer "Of course I support the Blunt amendment."

CNCnews.com, a conservative news service, seeking clarity, wrote about putting the question directly to the Romney campaign.

"Will Mitt Romney, on day one, rescind this mandate in its entirety — as the Catholic Church has urged the current administration to do — so that individuals, employers and insurers who have a ‘moral or religious objection to contraception or sterilization’ will not be forced to violate the tenets of their own faith or act against their consciences?"

Romney campaign spokesman Ryan Williams responded: "Yes--Gov. Romney would rescind the mandate in its entirety."

In April, Romney reiterated his opposition to the current rule at a meeting of the National Rifle Association. He said, "As president, I will abolish it."

We conclude from those comments that Romney would not just abolish the requirements for religious organizations, but for any employer that had a moral or religious objection.

Governor Romney, were you lying then or are you lying now?

12 JamesWI  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:41:24pm

re: #9 HappyWarrior

Was it Polifact who "fact-checked" President Clinton by bringing up the Lewinsky affair?

No, that was AP's "fact-checkers." That one was on Yahoo's front page for two days.

LIBRUL MEDIA

13 McSpiff  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:41:59pm

re: #8 William Barnett-Lewis

KT doesn't care. Politifact feeds his "Concerns". Therefore their FACTS are TRUTH. Truthiness, I suppose? Truth, honor or reality has nothing to do with it.

I just wonder if KT will come "out" for Mittens before or after the election.

I'm not sure how you could have any doubt where his support has laid for the last 6 months...

14 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:42:17pm

re: #12 JamesWI

No, that was AP's "fact-checkers." That one was on Yahoo's front page for two days.

LIBRUL MEDIA

Ah, that's right. Thanks. That was surely a weird moment as is this "check."

15 freetoken  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:42:43pm

PJM has a classic:

Mitt Romney Wins Debate on Smooth Presidential Performance, Obama’s Ignorance

16 freetoken  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:43:22pm

From that PJTatler piece:

Update: Candy Crowley really bailed Obama out on Libya. In fact, when she corrected Romney, she was wrong. It is outrageous that a reporter inserted herself into the debate to correct a candidate and was, herself, wrong on the facts. It is outrageous that she defended Obama on a point on which he was wrong. She turned one of the most important moments for one side and against another.

17 JamesWI  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:43:36pm

Also, the internet responds to the debate with memes (this is pretty good)

18 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:43:39pm

re: #11 goddamnedfrank

Another massive flip flop:

Really? Then why did Romney voice his unequivocal support for the Blunt Amendment?:

Governor Romney, were you lying then or are you lying now?

Thanks for bringing this up because I remembered that he supported the Blunt Amendment quite well and laughed when he said he didn't want federal bureaucrats doing anything with people's contraception. The man is such a serial liar.Anything for a vote and to look palatable to the audience he's speaking to.

19 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:44:14pm

re: #3 JamesWI

Reposted from downstairs:

[Embedded content]

So that's THREE DAYS IN A ROW after the attack, Obama personally calling it an act of terror. Jay Carney saying something stupid doesn't cancel that out.

But Politifact says "Obama didn't say it was an act of terror for 2 weeks" .....HALF TRUE.

Yes Killgore, Politifact is a fucking joke. This is why your reliance on "fact-checkers" is pointless. Because they don't even bother checking the facts.

The saddest thing is: people died and we are talking about the WORD terror?

Pitiful, pitiful people.

20 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:44:18pm

re: #11 goddamnedfrank

Another massive flip flop:

Really? Then why did Romney voice his unequivocal support for the Blunt Amendment?:

Governor Romney, were you lying then or are you lying now?

Yes. Or no. Which answer will get me your vote?

21 boredtechindenver  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:44:18pm
22 Targetpractice  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:45:03pm

re: #16 freetoken

From that PJTatler piece:

Yeah, I expect we'll see that more in the days to come, that Crowley caused Willard's snafu by taking Obama's side.

23 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:45:50pm

re: #19 Stanley Sea

The saddest thing is: people died and we are talking about the WORD terror?

Pitiful, pitiful people.

No kidding. But then again these are the people who also flip their shit because Obama really doesn't call it the "War on Terror." Morons. But these are the people who probably jacked off to 24 non-stop and think Jack Bauer is a real person.

24 makeitstop  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:46:37pm

The smug douche really thought he had Obama dead to rights. Asshole.

Those little nods of the head. Arrogant putz.

25 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:46:45pm

Binders of women may end up being the bigger meme than Big Bird. Too bad Big Bird's not a female but then it could be even more fun.

26 JamesWI  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:48:34pm

re: #17 JamesWI

And he was even lying about that "hiring women" thing too:

This man has no shame at all. Zero.

27 engineer cat  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:49:05pm

despite posting a link to this CNN 'poll' on free republic, urging the denizens there to "freep this poll", the results currently are

Quick vote
Who do you think fared better in the second presidential debate?
Read Related Articles
Obama 68% 9275
Romney 32% 4419
Total votes: 13694
This is not a scientific poll

according to the freepers themselves, before they 'freeped' it it was
Obama 71% 2231
Romney 29% 927

28 Mocking Jay  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:49:26pm

re: #26 JamesWI

This man has no shame at all. Zero.

He's running for office for Pete's sake!

29 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:49:35pm

Hopefully the Libya moment reminded some voters of Mitt's intial response to the tragedy which was to expose himself as a classless ghoul who cares more about Obama looking bad than anything. Really, I laugh whenever Mitt says he wanted the president to do well. Mitt was for all cases and purposes running for office the minute it was apparent that McCain would not win the 2008 election. I mean I know he has to say that or at least appear like he wanted Obama to do well but it's just so insincere knowing how ambitious this guy is.

30 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:49:37pm

re: #13 McSpiff

I'm not sure how you could have any doubt where his support has laid for the last 6 months...

Oh, I know. It's just that he keeps claiming he's a classical liberal (code for far far far right in most places) and that he "likes" Obama. I'm just curious if he'll have the moral courage of his convictions and admit he want's the Republicans to win or not. I doubt it.

I very rarely agree on any given issue with Dark_Falcon. But his honesty & consistency is refreshing. I value his friendship as a result. Honor is something DF lives by - he and I don't always agree on how to describe it but we both know it when we see it.

KT does not.

KT has done little of value since he got scared by OWS. That's unfortunate as, once upon a time, he was as valuable a conservative contributor as DF. I hope he will become one again but I expect his near flounce of the past year will fullfill itself after Mittens looses.

31 freetoken  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:49:40pm

The Bratfarts are really jumping on the Crowley thing too.

They really hate her.

But they hate any woman that corrects them.

Heck, most of them just hate women.

32 Sophist, Gingham Style  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:49:57pm

A reporter called out a politician for saying something that was objectively untrue? Well I never! Bring me my pearls, that I may clutch them!

33 efuseakay  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:50:34pm

re: #16 freetoken

From that PJTatler piece:

It's as if a transcript that proves Romney (and all of them) wrong, doesn't exist. Wasn't this address recorded? It's gotta be on YouTube somewhere.

34 lostlakehiker  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:51:21pm

Does anyone seriously believe that the commando team that took out our ambassador was there "because of the movie"? Please. That operation was professional and deadly. They knew what they were doing and they went right at it.

They were all on the same page.

There was no "demonstration". Just the al Qaeda version of a SEAL team.

35 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:51:43pm

re: #18 HappyWarrior

Thanks for bringing this up because I remembered that he supported the Blunt Amendment quite well and laughed when he said he didn't want federal bureaucrats doing anything with people's contraception. The man is such a serial liar.Anything for a vote and to look palatable to the audience he's speaking to.

10 to 1 odds Romney's campaign will issue a "clarification" tomorrow stating that he doesn't think employers should be allowed to physically prevent employees from paying for contraception out of their own paychecks. As if that was ever the issue. As if employer provided group health plans aren't also a part of an employee's compensation, partially paid for with paycheck deductions, intended to serve the employee's needs and for the employee to exploit as they see fit.

36 Targetpractice  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:51:52pm

re: #32 Sophist, Gingham Style

A reporter called out a politician for saying something that was objectively untrue? Well I never! Bring me my pearls, that I may clutch them!

Shall I prepare the fainting couch?

37 Mocking Jay  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:51:52pm

re: #31 freetoken

The Bratfarts are really jumping on the Crowley thing too.

They really hate her.

But they hate any woman that corrects them.

Heck, most of them just hate women.

Half-true...

38 sagehen  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:54:40pm
39 Targetpractice  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:57:42pm

I notice that the arguments from the first debate are back, but absolutely reversed. The wingnuts are trying desperately to push the "style vs. substance" bit, only now saying that Romney had the edge in substance, even if they're grudgingly admitting Obama had the edge in style.

40 dragonath  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:00:16pm

Romney, the substance candidate?

It is to laugh.

41 Talking Point Detective  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:02:12pm

Ah yes. Mr. Mitt "I have experience as a business leader" Romney - who immediately after an attack against Americans comes out and makes a statement that was incorrect in fact, wrongly accusing the president of apologizing for terrorism, and then going in front of a national audience and flat out saying an untruth about what Obama said the day after the incident.

He politicizes an act of terrorism, and twice gets the facts wrong in the process of doing so.

Yeah, must be because of his "experience as a business leader." No doubt, that's probably why he had such winning success in capturing hearts and minds when he went to London and insulted one of our strongest allies.

Must also explain why he isn't even contesting in the state where he served as Governor. You know, all that "experience as a business leader.'

42 Kragar  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:02:50pm

re: #40 dragonath

Romney, the substance candidate?

It is to laugh.

Did they specify what substance?

43 Charles Johnson  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:03:53pm

Wow. The righties REALLY want their fake Libya outrage to be true. They're covering their ears and screaming "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

Obama said it was an act of terror on three separate occasions, immediately after the attack. It's on the record. Indisputable.

And they still refuse to believe it.

44 efuseakay  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:04:30pm

re: #34 lostlakehiker

Does anyone seriously believe that the commando team that took out our ambassador was there "because of the movie"? Please. That operation was professional and deadly. They knew what they were doing and they went right at it.

They were all on the same page.

There was no "demonstration". Just the al Qaeda version of a SEAL team.

Ambassador Stevens died of smoke inhalation. Lighting a structure on fire is hardly a "SEAL-equivalent" tactic.

9/11 was a professional job. Did Bush ever take responsibility? Did Rice?

45 JamesWI  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:06:58pm

Even Obama's personal twitter writers are getting in on the "binders full of women" fun:

46 Targetpractice  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:07:40pm

re: #43 Charles Johnson

Wow. The righties REALLY want their fake Libya outrage to be true. They're covering their ears and screaming "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

Obama said it was an act of terror on three separate occasions, immediately after the attack. It's on the record. Indisputable.

And they still refuse to believe it.

"Act of terror" isn't the same as terrorism! He might have been talking about the WTC attack! And Carney said it was due to the video at the same time, so that totally cancels out what Obama was saying!

47 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:08:07pm

re: #45 JamesWI

Even Obama's personal twitter writers are getting in on the "binders full of women" fun:

[Embedded content]

Well they had fun with the Big Bird comment, no shock that they'll run with this one too.

48 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:08:13pm

sites fucked up

49 Mocking Jay  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:08:32pm

re: #43 Charles Johnson

Wow. The righties REALLY want their fake Libya outrage to be true. They're covering their ears and screaming "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

Obama said it was an act of terror on three separate occasions, immediately after the attack. It's on the record. Indisputable.

And they still refuse to believe it.

They feel they have to win every battle, lest their manhood be diminished.

50 dragonath  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:08:41pm

Also, LOL at Romney's doddering routine about "Fast and Furious".

"Oh, erm, gee... I don't know why anyone... er... who thought this was a good idea... I mean..."

Dammit, it originated in the Bush Administration. Talk about a sop to the right wing.

51 Mocking Jay  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:09:49pm

re: #50 dragonath

Also, LOL at Romney's doddering routine about "Fast and Furious".

"Oh, erm, gee... I don't know why anyone... er... who thought this was a good idea... I mean..."

Dammit, it originated in the Bush Administration. Talk about a sop to the right wing.

I'm interested in hearing more about those single-mother crime factories he brought up.

52 ElCapitanAmerica  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:09:54pm

re: #46 Targetpractice

"Act of terror" isn't the same as terrorism! He might have been talking about the WTC attack! And Carney said it was due to the video at the same time, so that totally cancels out what Obama was saying!

"Act of terror" is not terrorism? What the hell does that mean?

And in the end, what does it matter? The immediate reaction made it so there were no more successful attacks, and there's an ongoing investigation. I'm not sure what the point here, is, but it sure made Romney look like a complete idiot.

53 Charles Johnson  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:10:01pm

Politifact rates this FALSE: PolitiFact | Barack Obama Says Mitt Romney Called the Arizona Immigration Law a 'Model for the Nation.'

They're simply flat out wrong. Here's a transcript in which Romney repeatedly cites Arizona's SB1070 as a model for the nation.

[Link: archives.cnn.com...]

This is why you can't trust Politifact any more than any other mainstream media source. They're sloppy and apparently lazy, and they get a lot of things wrong.

54 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:10:58pm

re: #51 Mocking Jay

I'm interested in hearing more about those single-mother crime factories he brought up.

Yeah wait till my cousin finds out about this. She's going to be shocked that being raised by a single mother made her a violent person even though she's repeatedly quoting the Dalai Lama and raising two excellent kids.

55 Charles Johnson  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:11:28pm

I know the web server is struggling to keep up tonight - nothing I can do about it right now. But help is on the way - we're moving to a blazing fast new web server to match our new database server very soon.

56 Mattand  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:11:28pm

Just getting around to catching up on debate news. From what I've seen, Obama apparently woke the hell up?

57 Mocking Jay  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:12:05pm

re: #53 Charles Johnson

From the Politifact page:

They both can’t be right. So which one is correct?

This from the site that made "half-true" and "mostly true" a thing.

58 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:13:15pm

re: #55 Charles Johnson

I know the web server is struggling to keep up tonight - nothing I can do about it right now. But help is on the way - we're moving to a blazing fast new web server to match our new database server very soon.

cool now.

59 Mocking Jay  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:13:15pm

re: #54 HappyWarrior

Yeah wait till my cousin finds out about this. She's going to be shocked that being raised by a single mother made her a violent person even though she's repeatedly quoting the Dalai Lama and raising two excellent kids.

We need to keep an eye on the widows of all those soldiers killed in action overseas.

60 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:13:16pm

re: #53 Charles Johnson

Politifact rates this FALSE: PolitiFact | Barack Obama Says Mitt Romney Called the Arizona Immigration Law a 'Model for the Nation.'

They're simply flat out wrong. Here's a transcript in which Romney repeatedly cites Arizona's SB1070 as a model for the nation.

[Link: archives.cnn.com...]

This is why you can't trust Politifact any more than any other mainstream media source. They're sloppy and apparently lazy, and they get a lot of things wrong.

I was so glad when Obama pointed out that Romney's adviser on immigration issues is the man who wrote that legislation. Romney's a lying weasel on immigration. He'll go full out xenophobic when he feels it's comfortable but try to act like "I support conditions too" when he's dealing with an audience that they themselves or someone they know is hoping to benefit from legislation like the DREAM ACT. Also thought it was weak that Mitt wouldn't shut up about "the first year." It's not POTUS's job to introduce legislation and Mitt completely wants us to ignore that his party is why the DREAM ACT hasn't been signed into law yet. And let's not forget the fact that he sought Sheriff Joe's support too.

61 ElCapitanAmerica  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:16:08pm

re: #53 Charles Johnson

Politifact rates this FALSE: PolitiFact | Barack Obama Says Mitt Romney Called the Arizona Immigration Law a 'Model for the Nation.'

They're simply flat out wrong. Here's a transcript in which Romney repeatedly cites Arizona's SB1070 as a model for the nation.

[Link: archives.cnn.com...]

This is why you can't trust Politifact any more than any other mainstream media source. They're sloppy and apparently lazy, and they get a lot of things wrong.

To be fair, when he responded, he was talking about e-verify;

You've talked to the governor about self-deportation, if businesses do their job, asking for the right documents, the people will leave. What about arresting? Should there be aggressive, seek them out, find them and arrest them as the Sheriff Arpaio advocates?

ROMNEY: You know, I think you see a model in Arizona. They passed a law here that says -- that says that people who come here and try and find work, that the employer is required to look them up on e- verify. This e-verify system allows employers in Arizona to know who's here legally and who's not here legally.

Now he was very vague on the rest of the law, because we all know he would have been in trouble in the primaries if he came out against it.

62 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:19:44pm

re: #61 ElCapitanAmerica

To be fair, when he responded, he was talking about e-verify;

Now he was very vague on the rest of the law, because we all know he would have been in trouble in the primaries if he came out against it.

What I remember is he used the issue to rightflank Perry and Gingrich. Both of whom to and I hate giving either guy credit but both guys were more closer to the Bush reasonable position on immigration more so than the Arizona madness.

63 freetoken  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:20:35pm

British network ITV's take:

Vimeo
64 JamesWI  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:21:13pm

The Debate.....told by GIFs

65 ElCapitanAmerica  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:21:18pm

re: #63 freetoken

Video is not embeddable :-(

66 freetoken  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:24:02pm

re: #65 ElCapitanAmerica

Well, you can still get to it from the ITV vimeo page:

Vimeo

or from their story page:

[Link: www.itv.com...]

In any case, it's interesting to see how outsiders view this thing. Oh, they bought the idea that Romney was ahead of Obama in "popularity" by 4 points, which is false, but I don't expect any more out of British media than I do US.

67 Charles Johnson  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:24:24pm

re: #61 ElCapitanAmerica

Sorry, I'm just finished letting Romney get away with lies. Here's the full statement he made:

KING: -- he told me this week here in Mesa -- these are his words -- "it's called political garbage, if you will, to not arrest illegals already in this country."

You've talked to the governor about self-deportation, if businesses do their job, asking for the right documents, the people will leave. What about arresting? Should there be aggressive, seek them out, find them and arrest them as the Sheriff Arpaio advocates?

ROMNEY: You know, I think you see a model in Arizona. They passed a law here that says -- that says that people who come here and try and find work, that the employer is required to look them up on e- verify. This e-verify system allows employers in Arizona to know who's here legally and who's not here legally.

And as a result of e-verify being put in place, the number of people in Arizona that are here illegally has dropped by some 14 percent, where the national average has only gone down 7 percent. So going back to the question that was asked, the right course for America is to drop these lawsuits against Arizona and other states that are trying to do the job Barack Obama isn't doing.

He's clearly talking about the WHOLE Arizona immigration model when he says the lawsuits should be dropped. If you want to give him a pass because you can parse the words to make it seem like he wasn't saying this, that's your prerogative -- but he made it extremely clear that he supports SB1070, and the main author of that bill, Kris Kobach, is an adviser to his campaign.

68 spiderx  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:25:37pm

Al Sharpton lost too much weight. He has this big head on a tiny skinny body now.

69 dragonath  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:25:51pm

Kris Kobach, your friendly Latino Outreach professional!

70 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:27:12pm

re: #69 dragonath

Kris Kobach, your friendly Latino Outreach professional!

"And he understands the issues important to you people because Mrs. Kobach makes some darn good nachos."

71 ElCapitanAmerica  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:27:47pm

re: #67 Charles Johnson

He's clearly talking about the WHOLE Arizona immigration model when he says the lawsuits should be dropped. If you want to give him a pass because you can parse the words to make it seem like he wasn't saying this, that's your prerogative -- but he made it extremely clear that he supports SB1070, and the main author of that bill, Kris Kobach, is an adviser to his campaign.

Whoa, I'm not trying to give him a pass ... whoever I see where he left room for that e-verify escape door. To me the problem was him not having a clear position on the controversial part of the law ...

72 efuseakay  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:29:32pm

re: #53 Charles Johnson

Politifact rates this FALSE: PolitiFact | Barack Obama Says Mitt Romney Called the Arizona Immigration Law a 'Model for the Nation.'

They're simply flat out wrong. Here's a transcript in which Romney repeatedly cites Arizona's SB1070 as a model for the nation.

[Link: archives.cnn.com...]

This is why you can't trust Politifact any more than any other mainstream media source. They're sloppy and apparently lazy, and they get a lot of things wrong.

I can't bear to read through that whole thing, but I did search for the word "model" and came up with a few instances... mostly about "Obamacare"... and one instance where Romney was saying the e-Verify system should be a model for the nation.

Could you throw up the part of the transcript that you're talking about?

*EDIT*

Sorry. You posted it up 5 minutes after I posted this up. Geez, I type so slow after midnight. Thanks Charles!

73 freetoken  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:30:16pm

This election has become all bread and circuses.

74 darthstar  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:30:54pm

Best caption of the night:
[Link: networkedblogs.com...]

Does this asshole look like he won the debate?
Image: losingasshole.jpg

75 dragonath  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:31:28pm

Wow, an actual emotion!

76 darthstar  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:36:00pm

So Utah, North Dakota and Kansas (thanks, Freetoken) make up the triangle of denial.

77 freetoken  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:36:32pm

re: #76 darthstar

That's Kansas.

78 darthstar  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:38:21pm
79 darthstar  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:38:55pm

re: #77 freetoken

That's Kansas.

Nebraskansas. Seriously...people live there?
/

80 Mich-again  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:39:36pm

I didn't watch a second of the debate. Please. It was on during the Tigers Yankees playoff game tonight and Verlander was pitching. And oh by the way I didn't need to watch the debate because I already voted absentee for Obama, my first vote ever for a Democrat, period. ha.

81 darthstar  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:40:46pm

re: #80 Mich-again

I didn't watch a second of the debate. Please. It was on during the Tigers Yankees playoff game tonight and Verlander was pitching. And oh by the way I didn't need to watch the debate because I already voted absentee for Obama, my first vote ever for a Democrat, period. ha.

Tigers seem to be moving some dust off the floor with the Yankees this series.

82 Mich-again  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:41:13pm

I think Fox News should dig up some old Tidy Bowl commercials and rebroadcast them during their public service time slots.

83 freetoken  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:41:55pm

re: #79 darthstar

Nebraskansas. Seriously...people live there?
/

Heh, speaking of which:

On teaching of evolution, at least, local state school board candidates can agree

[...]

Both candidates for the state board of education seat in district 2, Cindy Neighbor and Steve Roberts, said at a forum Monday that they back teaching evolution in the science curriculum in Kansas schools.

“Evolution should remain as part of the curriculum,” Neighbor said.

Roberts told the audience that “evolution makes sense. Intelligent design is not science. If a local school wanted to teach creationism or intelligent design, I would be against it.”

Roberts is a Republican who ran for the same seat four years ago as an Independent and Neighbor is a Democrat who has spent time in the state legislature as both a Republican and a Democrat.

[...]

Roberts is a math teacher who is trained as an engineer and has taught in a number of schools and institutions. Neighbor worked for Shawnee Mission schools in support roles for a number of years, and served 16 years on the district’s school board and six years in the state legislature.

[...]

See, miracles serendipity can happen.

84 Mich-again  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:42:21pm

Because Mitt might as well be the captain of the ship in that commercial.

85 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:45:04pm

re: #80 Mich-again

I didn't watch a second of the debate. Please. It was on during the Tigers Yankees playoff game tonight and Verlander was pitching. And oh by the way I didn't need to watch the debate because I already voted absentee for Obama, my first vote ever for a Democrat, period. ha.

Verlander is something else. I love watching him pitch.

86 Mich-again  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:45:06pm

Tell me this isn't foreshadowing from 41 years ago of Mitt selling the GOP to America.

Youtube Video
87 JamesWI  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:45:57pm

Image: enhanced-buzz-20492-1350444532-7.jpg

88 dragonath  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:50:13pm

re: #86 Mich-again

Gives a new twist to the term "echo chamber".

89 JamesWI  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 10:51:25pm

So apparently, Romney's campaign really thinks attacking more on Benghazi is the best strategy right now. His weakest point of the night. A point where the audience of supposed undecided voters burst into applause when it was pointed out that he was full of shit.

And they think reminding everyone about that right away is going to score points.

Man, after that first debate there were actually moments when the Romney campaign seemed somewhat competent. Then they lose the next debate and remind me why I frequently called them "WORST. CAMPAIGN. EVER."

90 freetoken  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:06:48pm

Among Romney's many un-Presidential statements, all too overlooked is his extreme demagoguery wrt foreign policy. He'd destroy relations with just about any nation in an attempt to sound macho enough for the rabid, insecure right.

91 engineer cat  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:07:56pm

Obama's words following the September 11 attack on the U.S. Consulate in Libya

'Of course, yesterday was already a painful day for our nation as we marked the solemn memory of the 9/11 attacks. We mourned with the families who were lost on that day. I visited the graves of troops who made the ultimate sacrifice in Iraq and Afghanistan at the hallowed grounds of Arlington Cemetery, and had the opportunity to say thank you and visit some of our wounded warriors at Walter Reed. And then last night, we learned the news of this attack in Benghazi.

'As Americans, let us never, ever forget that our freedom is only sustained because there are people who are willing to fight for it, to stand up for it, and in some cases, lay down their lives for it. Our country is only as strong as the character of our people and the service of those both civilian and military who represent us around the globe.

'No acts of terror will ever shake the resolve of this great nation, alter that character, or eclipse the light of the values that we stand for. Today we mourn four more Americans who represent the very best of the United States of America. We will not waver in our commitment to see that justice is done for this terrible act. And make no mistake, justice will be done.'

92 engineer cat  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:09:24pm

Jonah Goldberg ‏@JonahNRO: "Binders full of women" sounds like evidence seized from a Russian mail order bride/prostitution ring.

93 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:10:28pm

re: #92 engineer cat

Jonah Goldberg ‏@JonahNRO: "Binders full of women" sounds like evidence seized from a Russian mail order bride/prostitution ring.

Tough break for Mitt if his own side is poking fun at him for this one.

94 Tigger2  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:11:45pm

re: #92 engineer cat

Jonah Goldberg ‏@JonahNRO: "Binders full of women" sounds like evidence seized from a Russian mail order bride/prostitution ring.

Well a least he didn't say a stable full of women.

95 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:12:15pm

re: #90 freetoken

Among Romney's many un-Presidential statements, all too overlooked is his extreme demagoguery wrt foreign policy. He'd destroy relations with just about any nation in an attempt to sound macho enough for the rabid, insecure right.

I have no love lost for the PRC but it drives me nuts when Romney talks about China. I mean it's not "Thank You Debbie Spent-It-Now" bad but it's still playing into the worst xenophobia Americans have about China and the fact it's so damn hypocritical coming from Mitt who invested in firms that outsourced.

96 JamesWI  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:13:43pm
97 Kragar  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:13:55pm

re: #94 Tigger2

Well a least he didn't say a stable full of women.

Rolodex of dudes.

98 freetoken  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:14:08pm

This one goes out to both Dinesh D'souza and Hulk Hogan:

MP3 Audio
99 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:14:52pm

re: #96 JamesWI

[Embedded content]

Ann wants the American people to love her husband as much as she does which frankly is creepy.

100 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:16:25pm

Well in an interesting note, I saw that Obama won the Scholastic children's vote. They've been doing this since 1940 and only twice 1960 and 1948 have the kids gotten the eventual winner wrong. I still remember being one of the few white dudes to support Gore in 8th grade in 2000.

101 boredtechindenver  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:17:55pm

This is for KT


102 Cheechako  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:20:06pm

re: #95 HappyWarrior

I have no love lost for the PRC but it drives me nuts when Romney talks about China. I mean it's not "Thank You Debbie Spent-It-Now" bad but it's still playing into the worst xenophobia Americans have about China and the fact it's so damn hypocritical coming from Mitt who invested in firms that outsourced.

Does anyone know how many jobs were sent to China due to Mitt and Bains closing so many US factories? Mitt acts so tough toward China but I'll bet he's sent them many jobs.

103 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:21:27pm

re: #95 HappyWarrior

I have no love lost for the PRC but it drives me nuts when Romney talks about China. I mean it's not "Thank You Debbie Spent-It-Now" bad but it's still playing into the worst xenophobia Americans have about China and the fact it's so damn hypocritical coming from Mitt who invested in firms that outsourced.

It's also contemptuous of the electorate to sit there and tell people that you're going to engage in a tariff war with China. You'd have to be an idiot to believe that. Few things could damage the economy faster and China just needs to stop buying our debt to pull the plug on that idea.

104 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:22:32pm

Drink all you want.

105 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:24:24pm

re: #103 goddamnedfrank

It's also contemptuous of the electorate to sit there and tell people that you're going to engage in a tariff war with China. You'd have to be an idiot to believe that. Few things could damage the economy faster and China just needs to stop buying our debt to pull the plug on that idea.

That too. So stupid. Really, it's not even the personal hypocrisy that bothers me in regards to Mitt and China, it's that he thinks that doing what he proposes will actually be sound policy.

106 dragonath  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:24:25pm

Worth watching again:

Youtube Video
107 engineer cat  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:25:02pm

i've just been eating binders full of this tasty granola

108 Big Joe  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:25:59pm

The Stuxnet variant did it's job tonight.

109 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:26:34pm

re: #102 Cheechako

Does anyone know how many jobs were sent to China due to Mitt and Bains closing so many US factories? Mitt acts so tough toward China but I'll bet he's sent them many jobs.

Honest, I have no idea. Really, it's the fact that it's bad economics really bothers me more though the hypocrisy does bother me knowing that he benefited from outsourcing jobs to China and now talks tough on that subject. I liked what Obama said in that discussion. He basically said and I'm paraphrasing here- Let's increase funding of science and math higher education so we can discover the next Apple or whatever.

110 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:27:24pm

re: #104 Shiplord Kirel

Drink all you want.

Image: clontarf_irish_whiskey.jpg
No need. Besides Republican tears are too damn salty.

111 engineer cat  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:30:00pm

i ordered two binders of women from russia online but i think it was a nigerian binder scam

112 Destro  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:31:21pm

re: #24 makeitstop

The smug douche really thought he had Obama dead to rights. Asshole.

Those little nods of the head. Arrogant putz.

When Romney said "I am not wrong" and indicated he is never wrong - that fucking there tells me this prick has no place in power over our lives.

Only the Pope is infallible - how that work out?

113 JamesWI  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:34:12pm
114 Kragar  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:38:44pm

Fischer: 'Political Leadership Ought to be Reserved for the Hands of Males'

During the Republican primary, Bryan Fischer made a bit of news when he suggested that women should not be serving in positions of authority within the church or society at large, saying that God would only allow a woman (in this case, Rep. Michele Bachmann) to lead the nation in a desperate situation.

Fischer returned to the discussion of the proper role of women in society on his radio program today where he made it quite clear that he believes that "biblical lines of authority" ought to be enforced at home, in the church, and in society and that anybody who has a problem with that can take it up with Jesus.

Fischer went on to reiterate that "masculine leadership in society over the nation" is "God's basic plan for today" and "political leadership ought to be ... reserved for the hands of males" and the fact that he is probably going to be attacked for saying so is just evidence that we can't have a reasonable discussion about this issue:

115 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:39:54pm

re: #114 Kragar

Fischer: 'Political Leadership Ought to be Reserved for the Hands of Males'

I wonder what he thinks of Golda Meir and countless others.

116 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:41:42pm

I've seen a lot of RWNJs threatening to leave the country if Obama is re-elected. We can help this along by finding them a place to go.

How about Costa Rica, as Rush suggests?
Er, no, they have socialized medicine and lots of brown people.

Australia?
Nope. Unions and pushy feminists.

Canada?
Don't be ridiculous.

Scotland?
"A dark land full of powerful homosexuals," according to Pat Robertson.

Antarctica?
Run by the UN, with high heating bills to boot.

I've got it! They can all go to Hell! There are no Democrats there, at least not since the Dixiecrats.

117 JamesWI  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:43:26pm

re: #116 Shiplord Kirel

I've seen a lot of RWNJs threatening to leave the country if Obama is re-elected. We can help this along by finding them a place to go.

How about Costa Rica, as Rush suggests?
Er, no, they have socialized medicine and lots of brown people.

Australia?
Nope. Unions and pushy feminists.

Canada?
Don't be ridiculous.

Scotland?
"A dark land full of powerful homosexuals," according to Pat Robertson.

Antarctica?
Run by the UN, with high heating bills to boot.

I've got it! They can all go to Hell! There are no Democrats there, at least not since the Dixiecrats.

I believe the common answer is Somalia. Don't have to worry about high taxes and universal healthcare there! And they get to prove how they're such "Alpha Males" .....before they get shot in the head by the pirates.

118 MittDoesNotCompute  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:43:34pm

re: #106 dragonath

Worth watching again:

[Embedded content]

Romney's initial response was so full of unmitigated bullshit (the idea that President Obama could and should have canceled all other engagements in the wake in the Benghazi attack, the "apology tour" crap, etc.) and RWNJ red meat, I seriously wanted to just skip through it, but didn't. Then, after President Obama's rebuttal, Mitt just looked and sounded so cocksure with that whole "14 days to call it an act of terror" lie, I'm sure that if he had a table nearby, he would have pulled a Perry Mason and pounded on it while arching his eyebrows at the president.

I loved it when Crowley shut him down, then when President Obama did the same as Romney was rambling on.

119 MittDoesNotCompute  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:46:34pm

re: #117 JamesWI

I believe the common answer is Somalia. Don't have to worry about high taxes and universal healthcare there! And they get to prove how they're such "Alpha Males" .....before they get shot in the head by the pirates.

A failed state, a failed radical ideology (in regards to what modern "conservatism" has become); it's a match made in Hell.

120 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:47:13pm

re: #116 Shiplord Kirel

I've seen a lot of RWNJs threatening to leave the country if Obama is re-elected. We can help this along by finding them a place to go.

How about Costa Rica, as Rush suggests?
Er, no, they have socialized medicine and lots of brown people.

Australia?
Nope. Unions and pushy feminists.

Canada?
Don't be ridiculous.

Scotland?
"A dark land full of powerful homosexuals," according to Pat Robertson.

Antarctica?
Run by the UN, with high heating bills to boot.

I've got it! They can all go to Hell! There are no Democrats there, at least not since the Dixiecrats.

They're never going to be happy anywhere. Obama could replicate the policies of their hero Reagan and they'd still be pissed because they'd complain that Obama was showing off. They're the most miserable people out there when it comes to political reality by far.

121 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:47:16pm

re: #117 JamesWI

I believe the common answer is Somalia. Don't have to worry about high taxes and universal healthcare there! And they get to prove how they're such "Alpha Males" .....before they get shot in the head by the pirates.

An ideal economic and regulatory environment to be sure, but way too many dark people and the Muslims there act like they own the place or something.

122 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:50:28pm

The religious right would be at home with some of the worst excesses of power in the name of religion in history. It's why I have to laugh when they claim they're for smaller government. Yeah you who want to make homosexuals, women, religious minorities, etc out to be second class citizens are for smaller government and individual liberty.

123 MittDoesNotCompute  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:51:03pm

re: #115 HappyWarrior

I wonder what he thinks of Golda Meir and countless others.

I'm sure that, in his mind, Fischer gets to file them under "leading in a desperate situation", though I don't think that he'd be able to give specific criteria for that special dispensation.

What a fucking lunatic loser...

124 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:52:46pm

re: #123 MittDoesNotCompute

I'm sure that, in his mind, Fischer gets to file them under "leading in a desperate situation", though I don't think that he'd be able to give specific criteria for that.

What a fucking lunatic loser...

I think lunatic is being kind to that guy after he compared people who oppose his and other anti gay bigotry to poisoned Halloween candy. Truly scary that he has any influence at all in conservative politics in this country. Him and David Barton both.

125 Cheechako  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 11:55:24pm

I think the most telling part of this exchange was Romney insisting "I want to be sure we get that for the record." Well damn...he sure did get it in the record!!

126 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 12:07:18am

If the press is doing it's job tomorrow the Romney campaign will be forced admit Mitt was either lying during the debate or he was lying when he said he supported the Blunt amendment.

127 JamesWI  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 12:09:20am

Best picture ever? Best picture ever.

Image: enhanced-buzz-31792-1350449505-6.jpg

128 dragonath  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 12:11:12am

What's leading on Yahoo News?

Obama wins the second debate. Too bad it's not the one that mattered.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

btw, the commenters (!) are nailing him too

129 Kragar  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 12:12:35am

re: #127 JamesWI

Best picture ever? Best picture ever.

Image: enhanced-buzz-31792-1350449505-6.jpg

Top right, that dude is totally a Romulan.

130 JamesWI  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 12:14:14am

re: #129 Kragar

Top right, that dude is totally a Romulan.

Romney son. With a look that says "How dare this black man challenge my father's birthright!

131 JamesWI  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 12:14:57am

re: #130 JamesWI

Romney son. With a look that says "How dare this black man challenge my father's birthright!

Romney son, Romulan. Romulan, Romney Son

132 efuseakay  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 12:15:57am

Romneyulan.

133 JamesWI  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 12:17:33am

When I said best picture ever, I was wrong. This is the best picture ever. Maybe.

Image: A5ZAoiGCcAAjFGN.jpg

134 JamesWI  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 12:21:59am

(No, I do not follow Clay Aiken. It was re-tweeted by someone else. I swear)

135 boredtechindenver  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 12:24:04am

JamesWI wins teh internets:


re: #133 JamesWI

When I said best picture ever, I was wrong. This is the best picture ever. Maybe.

Image: A5ZAoiGCcAAjFGN.jpg

re: #134 JamesWI

(No, I do not follow Clay Aiken. It was re-tweeted by someone else. I swear)

[Embedded content]

136 boredtechindenver  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 12:28:39am

Another tweet for KT:

137 Big Joe  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 12:29:38am

musical break

Youtube Video
138 AK-47%  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 12:31:48am

Are those two or three-ring binders? We want details, Mitt!

139 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 12:39:05am

re: #133 JamesWI

When I said best picture ever, I was wrong. This is the best picture ever. Maybe.

Image: A5ZAoiGCcAAjFGN.jpg

This is my favorite image from the debate. If anybody can find and post a larger version for Photoshopping it'd be much appreciated.

FYI to Charles, the default shadowboxing of images isn't working for me. Looks like shadowboxing is broken, even when I type in rel="shadowboxc15f911f" it's not working. Looks like it's working for others so it might be an issue with Tinypic.

140 JamesWI  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 12:41:08am

re: #139 goddamnedfrank

This is my favorite image from the debate. If anybody can find and post a larger version for Photoshopping it'd be much appreciated.

Can't help you there, but this picture seems to be the most popular one from the debate:

Image: enhanced-buzz-31511-1350450470-4.jpg

141 researchok  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 12:46:26am

Morning, all

142 Big Joe  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 1:09:30am

LOL at Fox "news"

Crowley went on to side with Romney about the administration's confusing account, saying it took two weeks for officials to say more definitively that the attack was more than an out-of-control protest, and she said after the debate that Romney "was right in the main, I just think he picked the wrong word."

But Obama also hadn't explicitly labeled the Bengazi strike as an "act of terror" as early as he claimed, though his comments on Sept. 12 in the Rose Garden indeed included that phrase, perhaps with that interpretation.

"No acts of terror will ever shake the resolve of this great nation, alter that character or eclipse the light of the values that we stand for," Obama said. "Today we mourn for more Americans who represent the very best of the United States of America. We will not waver in our commitment to see that justice is done for this terrible act. And make no mistake, justice will be done. But we also know that the lives these Americans led stand in stark contrast to those of their attackers."

Hadn't labeled it as terror except for where he did.

Like Newton once thought, "Perhaps with that interpretation, gravity doesn't work by suction, after all."

143 AK-47%  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 1:15:49am

You didn't build that and he didn't say that. End of discussion.

144 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 2:49:37am

Who won last night? That's fucking easy. The Detroit Tigers. Another close one. Whew!!!
Morning Honcos.

145 AK-47%  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 2:56:20am

Obama did better than last time, so they can call it a "win", even the Romney suppoerters are not calling it a clear victory. I like the spin from Newsmax: "Romney 'Right' on Libya, He Just Picked Wrong Word"

He built that, he just used the wrong bricks...

146 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 2:59:13am

re: #145 AK-47%

I had to work last night so I was spared. I got home and posted "So who won?" on my FB. I got about 10 comments in about 5 minutes then said, "No, I meant the game". Heh.

147 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 3:11:03am

Students in blackface re-enact Chris Brown beating Rihanna
[Link: www.cnn.com...]
SKOOL PRIDE!!

148 AK-47%  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 3:12:09am

Missed the debate, just reviewing the reviews and blow-by-blows: but Obama did one thing he needed to do, which was to remind people how far Romney has gone to the right on social policy, but did it in a context of how "that is not how we are going to move our economy forward".

149 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 3:34:48am

From the No Shit file...
Picasso, Matisse, Monet paintings stolen from Dutch museum in daring heist
AMSTERDAM — Seven paintings by artists including Pablo Picasso and Claude Monet that are worth more than a hundred million dollars were stolen from a museum in Rotterdam in the early hours of Tuesday morning.
...
Indications are that the perpetrators of the crime knew which pieces they were after
Ya think?

150 AK-47%  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 3:45:03am

Just steal anything with the eyeballs on the wrong side of the head...

151 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 3:45:55am

re: #150 AK-47%

Just steal anything with the eyeballs on the wrong side of the head...

So, you're met my ex?
/

152 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 3:52:40am

re: #34 lostlakehiker

First, don't insult our Navy Seal Teams with those kinds of comparisons. Second, if what you say is true and nobody was there to demonstrate or out of anger, why did your "Al Qaeda Seal Teams" take the Ambassador to the hospital to try to save him?

153 nines09  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 3:56:54am

re: #149 Cannadian Club Akbar

From the No Shit file...
Picasso, Matisse, Monet paintings stolen from Dutch museum in daring heist
AMSTERDAM — Seven paintings by artists including Pablo Picasso and Claude Monet that are worth more than a hundred million dollars were stolen from a museum in Rotterdam in the early hours of Tuesday morning.
...
Indications are that the perpetrators of the crime knew which pieces they were after
Ya think?

They left the calenders?

154 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 4:00:32am

re: #153 nines09

They left the calenders?

And Velvet Elvis.

155 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 4:20:37am

I stayed up past my bedtime, had to turn in before the game was over but Zedushka watched it to the end. The Tigers won!

156 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 4:23:38am

I think Twitter crashed last night under the weight of all those binders full of women.

157 Obdicut  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 4:46:39am

My sleep schedule is so hosed.

I'm glad that Obama's performance calmed the jitters on the left.

158 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 4:50:23am

Disaster shelter offers full kitchen, flat-screen TV
ALTAMONTE SPRINGS, Fla. -
Could a "Doomsday Bunker" protect your family in case of disaster? One local business thinks so and is offering tours of an Atlas corrugated pipe shelter.

Al's Army Navy Store in Altamonte Springs is selling a 32x10-foot shelter. The unit is designed to go 20 feet underground, and can offer protection from hurricanes, tornadoes and other disasters.
[Link: www.clickorlando.com...]
I've seen these things before but I doubt they would work in Florida because of the water table.

159 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 5:00:44am
160 wheat-dogg  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 5:03:26am

re: #129 Kragar

Top right, that dude is totally a Romulan.

I was thinking more along the lines of some angry demon from a Buffy or Charmed episode.

With some 'shopping, he could be a seriously pissed off Klingon, though.

161 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 5:08:31am

What's great is that the debates are providing the Obama campaign tons of fodder for ads:

Youtube Video
162 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 5:10:36am

First Derp of the Day:

No you Doofus, it's the "job creator" Walmart that is the Food Stamp Champ

163 Decatur Deb  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 5:16:18am

Pimping my daughter's blog:

"I'm Getting a Trapper-Keeper Full of Men"

[Link: lorcadamon.com...]

164 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 5:19:26am

LGF and Twitter were really slow last night, but I guess that was due to Debate/ALCS overload.

I am really loving the crap out of my sweet new Lenovo!

165 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 5:25:00am

Do you get Pell Grants once a semester (spring, fall) or only once a year?

166 dragonath  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 5:27:15am

As president I will cut the number of food stamps

by cutting the program

oh

167 Lidane  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 5:29:48am
168 dragonath  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 5:29:56am

Government doesn't create jobs

elect me so I can create 12 million of them

169 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 5:30:15am

*sigh*

A wingnut was splainin' to me that Walmart is saving the government money, that all of its employees who are currently receiving food stamps would be taking even more food stamps if they did not have jobs at Walmart and just sat around being all unemployed and shit.

*face palm*

170 Lidane  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 5:30:55am
171 dragonath  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 5:32:48am

Under my tax plan everyone will pay a fair share

except me

172 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 5:35:19am

When you are traveling, what is better to have as a carryon, a backpack or a rolling case?

173 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 5:36:38am

re: #172 Sheila Broflovski

When you are traveling, what is better to have as a carryon, a backpack or a rolling case?

Either so long as they fit in the overhead. I recommend a backpack.

174 Lidane  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 5:37:17am

re: #163 Decatur Deb

Pimping my daughter's blog:

"I'm Getting a Trapper-Keeper Full of Men"

[Link: lorcadamon.com...]

Hahaha, that's awesome.

175 dragonath  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 5:41:08am

Well, that View appearance should be really interesting now.

"Boy, your husband sure stunk it up at the debate, didn't he?"

...

>:(

176 wheat-dogg  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 5:50:54am

re: #173 Cannadian Club Akbar

Ditto. Airliner aisles seem to be getting narrower. The roller bags always seem to bang into the seats or get hung up.

177 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 5:57:04am

re: #158 Cannadian Club Akbar

Disaster shelter offers full kitchen, flat-screen TV
ALTAMONTE SPRINGS, Fla. -
Could a "Doomsday Bunker" protect your family in case of disaster? One local business thinks so and is offering tours of an Atlas corrugated pipe shelter.

Al's Army Navy Store in Altamonte Springs is selling a 32x10-foot shelter. The unit is designed to go 20 feet underground, and can offer protection from hurricanes, tornadoes and other disasters.
[Link: www.clickorlando.com...]
I've seen these things before but I doubt they would work in Florida because of the water table.

Should be quite fun in a flood situation too. Air intakes might get a little iffy if they are covered with water.

178 Lidane  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:00:18am

Also, at least two of my friends have liked this on FB:

[Link: www.facebook.com...]

179 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:04:32am

re: #177 Eventual Carrion

Should be quite fun in a flood situation too. Air intakes might get a little iffy if they are covered with water.

I would be near impossible to secure it unless you pony up some real cash in FLA. My yard would be a soggy mess after a good day's rain.

180 Shropshire_Slasher  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:10:13am

re: #179 Cannadian Club Akbar

Actually,what would probably happen, is that after a good rainstorm, the shelter will "float" Pop right out of the ground it will.

181 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:11:58am

re: #180 Shropshire_Slasher

Actually,what would probably happen, is that after a good rainstorm, the shelter will "float" Pop right out of the ground it will.

Those are my thoughts.

182 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:13:20am

re: #180 Shropshire_Slasher

Actually,what would probably happen, is that after a good rainstorm, the shelter will "float" Pop right out of the ground it will.

Yeah, like an empty, buried gas tank.

183 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:17:27am

re: #182 Eventual Carrion

Yeah, like an empty, buried gas tank.

A years supply of beer would hold it down for a couple months.
/

184 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:19:05am

DERPTY DERP

185 Destro  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:23:17am

re: #43 Charles Johnson

Wow. The righties REALLY want their fake Libya outrage to be true. They're covering their ears and screaming "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

Obama said it was an act of terror on three separate occasions, immediately after the attack. It's on the record. Indisputable.

And they still refuse to believe it.

That's because Obama did not say "terrorists" when he also said "acts of terror" - because we all know "acts of terror" can be carried out by other entities like ghosts or goblins. How do would we know Obama was not talking about zombies carrying out 'acts of terror' if he did not reference 'terrorists' specifically?

186 Interesting Times  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:24:04am

Jon Huntsman's (R-Endangered Species) daughter weighs in:

187 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:24:35am

re: #184 Sheila Broflovski

DERPTY DERP

I sure hope when @mittromney becomes president , he addresses the Islamic problem in Dearborn, Mi . Christians are being persecuted there.

— Kik: AmericanJolie (@LAJolieInc) October 17, 2012

Are they not being allowed to build more churches or is their tax exempt status being taken away? Christians in this country sure have had a hard time of things. Maybe they should leave and find someplace that will treat them like they should be treated. Where they can impose their view of society on the masses without fear of being told to fuck off.

188 Lidane  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:24:54am

Wait, what?

189 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:26:11am

re: #187 Eventual Carrion

Are they not being allowed to build more churches or is their tax exempt status being taken away? Christians in this country sure have had a hard time of things. Maybe they should leave and find someplace that will treat them like they should be treated. Where they can impose their view of society on the masses without fear of being told to fuck off.

You know that big old mosque on Ford Road with the minarets that the wingnuts find so SCARY? There are FIVE churches on the same block. FIVE (count 'em)

190 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:26:16am

re: #188 Lidane

Wait, what?

I agree with them, he should attack Paraguay.

191 Interesting Times  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:26:18am
192 wheat-dogg  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:29:12am

re: #185 Destro

That's because Obama did not say "terrorists" when he also said "acts of terror" - because we all know "acts of terror" can be carried out by other entities like ghosts or goblins. How do would we know Obama was not talking about zombies carrying out 'acts of terror' if he did not reference 'terrorists' specifically?

Like how the "live certificate of birth" is not the same as "birth certificate?"

193 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:29:17am

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. Didn't watch the "debate", "town hall" or "Mittsliefest" or whatever it's being described as. I'm sure the fact-checkers are having a field day with the supposed claims made and that it isn't going to go well for Romney, not that he particularly cares either. He's coming across as someone who will say anything to win a vote, even if it runs counter to what he was saying just a few hours/days/weeks ago - let alone even recognizing that opposing Obamacare would mean opposing Romneycare in Mass.

But the real news wasn't the debate; it's that the economy continues slowly improving. Something must be going right for the economy when housing starts are at its highest levels in six years.

Housing starts increased 15 percent last month to a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 872,000 units, the Commerce Department said on Wednesday.

That was the quickest pace since July 2008, though data on starts is volatile and subject to substantial revisions.

The U.S. economy has shown signs of faster growth in recent months as the jobless rate has fallen and retail sales data has pointed to stronger consumer spending.

The data showed housing, which was battered by the 2007-09 recession, is increasingly one of the brighter spots in the economy and could add to growth this year for the first time since 2005.

"One of the big headwinds for the economy has been the weak housing market and this indicates that headwind has dissipated," said Gary Thayer, an economic strategist at Wells Fargo Advisors in St. Louis, Missouri.

That's on top of the reports by various banks showing significant improvement in their mortgage businesses. An improved real estate market means that people can again move around to meet their business/work needs, find homes (from rentals), or downsize without getting hit with being underwater (or nearly as underwater). Markets have stabilized, and the low interest rates are allowing for more refinancing - freeing up more money for people to spend elsewhere (or to reduce term of years on mortgages - or both).

That also jibes with the unemployment figures, since a better real estate market means that more people are employed in those related businesses and aren't losing homes to foreclosures as they were just a few short years ago.

Is it enough? Is it happening fast enough? Nope, but it's a damned sight better than it was, and I'd take slow and steady growth over a new bubble that isn't sustained by the fundamentals.

194 Lidane  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:29:20am

re: #184 Sheila Broflovski

DERPTY DERP

[Embedded content]

Between these Dearbornistan lunatics claiming persecution and Bryan Fischer comparing Chicago to a Third World country the other day, you'd think that Americans were living in Somalia or something. WTF.

195 Lidane  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:30:48am

re: #185 Destro

That's because Obama did not say "terrorists" when he also said "acts of terror" - because we all know "acts of terror" can be carried out by other entities like ghosts or goblins. How do would we know Obama was not talking about zombies carrying out 'acts of terror' if he did not reference 'terrorists' specifically?

re: #192 wheatdogg

Like how the "live certificate of birth" is not the same as "birth certificate?"

196 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:32:04am

re: #194 Lidane

Not surprising since most of them can't find Somalia or Afghanistan on a map (or where most states are in relation to each other for that matter).

You know you've got problems when you can't find a country on a map where your nation has been fighting a war for more than 10 years.

197 DelusionDeluge  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:34:43am

Already seen one wingnut comment this morning going after Candy Crowley for her looks and weight. She's going to need to increase her security detail today as the monkeys circle.

198 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:51:03am

Good morning lizards!

Looks like the Yankees are pretty much finished. Down 3 games to 0. Talk about an uphill climb.

199 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:52:21am

re: #198 NJDhockeyfan

Good morning lizards!

Looks like the Yankees are pretty much finished. Down 3 games to 0. Talk about an uphill climb.

Without an injured Jeter and Arod hitting on chicks, I don't see it.

200 Lidane  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:52:44am
201 Interesting Times  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:54:36am

re: #200 Lidane

Tucker Carlson wears a bow tie, was first to get kicked off DWTS, and got pwned by Jon Stewart. His argument is irrelevant :)

202 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:54:36am

re: #198 NJDhockeyfan

Good morning lizards!

Looks like the Yankees are pretty much finished. Down 3 games to 0. Talk about an uphill climb.

I'm hoping the Tigers will crush them tonight.

203 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:54:48am

Stockholm embassy evacuated.
[Link: www.boston.com...]

204 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:59:10am

Good morning.
Here's my take on the debate last night.
NSFW...Viewer discretion is advised...

Youtube Video
205 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:00:17am

re: #204 Reverend Mother Ramallo

Hmm....try again.:)

206 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:02:00am

Take 2.

Youtube Video
207 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:02:19am

re: #198 NJDhockeyfan

Good morning lizards!

Looks like the Yankees are pretty much finished. Down 3 games to 0. Talk about an uphill climb.

They have to hope they're the 2004 Red Sox and the Tigers are the 2004 Yankees. Not very likely.

208 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:03:48am

Heh.

209 A Mom Anon  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:04:12am

re: #116 Shiplord Kirel

I will happily help them pack. I'm very neat and organized. Ooooh I smell a new small business opportunity. My very own moving company.

210 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:05:48am

re: #207 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

They have to hope they're the 2004 Red Sox and the Tigers are the 2004 Yankees. Not very likely.

The Tigers are very, very hungry.

211 Sionainn  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:06:16am

re: #206 Reverend Mother Ramallo

Take 2.

[Embedded content]

I love those skits.

212 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:06:41am

re: #209 A Mom Anon

I will happily help them pack. I'm very neat and organized. Ooooh I smell a new small business opportunity. My very own moving company.

I would be willing to get a CDL at my own expense, and drive for free.

213 Lidane  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:08:49am
214 Bulworth  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:12:05am
Candy Crowley Interjects: Obama ‘Did in Fact’ Say Libya Attack Was Terrorism

Media bias!

215 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:13:12am

[Link: bindersfullofwomen.com...]

216 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:14:20am
217 Bulworth  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:15:29am
A reporter called out a politician for saying something that was objectively untrue? Well I never! Bring me my pearls, that I may clutch them!

Shall I prepare the fainting couch?

The fainting couches are sold out.

218 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:16:50am

LeBron James on terrorist's 'bad man' list

219 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:19:18am

[Link: bindersfullofwomen.tumblr.com...]

220 Bulworth  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:19:24am
Actual Obama transcript:

No acts of terror will ever shake the resolve of this great nation, alter that character, or eclipse the light of the values that we stand for. Today we mourn four more Americans who represent the very best of the United States of America. We will not waver in our commitment to see that justice is done for this terrible act. And make no mistake, justice will be done.

But some people say 'acts of terror' is not the same thing as 'terrorism' or 'terrorists'. Some people disagree. We'll continue to present both sides of the debate. /

221 Lidane  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:20:00am

re: #217 Bulworth

The fainting couches are sold out.

Popcorn, booze and smelling salts, on the other hand, have great futures.

222 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:20:20am

re: #220 Bulworth

But some people say 'acts of terror' is not the same thing as 'terrorism' or 'terrorists'. Some people disagree. We'll continue to present both sides of the debate. /

I'll keep it simple. The people that want to quibble over this are well, assholes.

223 Lidane  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:22:41am

re: #220 Bulworth

But some people say 'acts of terror' is not the same thing as 'terrorism' or 'terrorists'. Some people disagree. We'll continue to present both sides of the debate. /

It all depends on what your definition of "is" is. =P

Also, LAYERZ OMG!

224 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:23:58am

Image: tumblr_mc0mmpTPRK1rj8amio1_400.jpg

225 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:24:30am

Image: tumblr_mc0s6i9wez1rj8amio1_1280.jpg

226 Bulworth  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:24:36am

Anyway, I'm just glad Romneybot and the RWNJ brigade would never politicize an attack on an American embassy and the death of American personnel. As Romneybot would say, 'this is no time to be pointing fingers'. //

227 Targetpractice  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:25:04am

So I awake to find several of the pundits talking about Willard's "gotcha moment" that backfired.

If ever you wanted to see a complete reversal from the first debate, that was the moment. I don't think for a second Lehrer would have stuck his neck out to correct the record like Crowley did.

228 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:25:16am
229 Bulworth  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:25:36am

Also, too: may the 'Binders Full of Women' meme never die. May its viralness ever be with us.

230 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:26:17am

Image: tumblr_mc0ntkc5B01rj8amio1_500.gif

231 Lidane  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:28:32am
232 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:29:21am
233 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:29:35am

I see some wingnuts are trying to spin this as a "win" for Romney even though he got a total beatdown.

234 darthstar  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:30:10am

Mornin' everyone...


Image: 644650_10151191939052346_710254972_n.jpg

235 Lidane  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:30:56am

re: #233 Sheila Broflovski

I see some wingnuts are trying to spin this as a "win" for Romney even though he got a total beatdown.

Related:

236 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:31:43am

re: #226 Bulworth

Anyway, I'm just glad Romneybot and the RWNJ brigade would never politicize an attack on an American embassy and the death of American personnel. As Romneybot would say, 'this is no time to be pointing fingers'. //

Consulate. I know I'm a little late to the party on this but after seeing how Republicans are piling on Obama over Benghazi I've changed my outlook on things...

The World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks on September 11, 2001 were the result of high incompetence and negligence on the part of George W. Bush and his cabinet.

237 Lidane  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:31:49am

re: #232 Gus

"7% spread? Clearly that means it's a draw!"

/Wolf Blitzer

238 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:32:42am
239 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:34:16am
240 Lidane  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:34:22am
241 darthstar  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:34:52am

Ouch...screenshot.

Image: tumblr_mc0nbjg3Rn1rj8amio1_500.png

242 Lidane  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:35:15am

re: #236 Gus

Consulate. I know I'm a little late to the party on this but after seeing how Republicans are piling on Obama over Benghazi I've changed my outlook on things...

The World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks on September 11, 2001 were the result of high incompetence and negligence on the part of George W. Bush and his cabinet.

243 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:36:47am

Image: Tornoe-20121017-debatetruthers.jpg

244 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:37:12am
245 Decatur Deb  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:37:56am

How good old larcenous American ingenuity might save us from Citizens United:

Allen West plagued by scam PACs

(lift from Politico)
[Link: www.politico.com...]

246 Targetpractice  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:39:06am

re: #244 Gus

[Embedded content]

Yeah, that was another of those WTF moments last night, Willard meandering off about women and getting married before jumping on the nut that was F&F and even then sounding like it was something he'd only read about in a clipping from the New York Post.

247 Decatur Deb  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:40:59am

re: #246 Targetpractice

Yeah, that was another of those WTF moments last night, Willard meandering off about women and getting married before jumping on the nut that was F&F and even then sounding like it was something he'd only read about in a clipping from the New York Post.

Yes. His tutors are going to have to wind the Mitt-doll very tight before the last debate.

248 darthstar  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:41:46am

re: #244 Gus

Unwed mommies are the problem with gun control? Yeah, I'd probably drop that one too.

249 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:42:53am

re: #246 Targetpractice

Yeah, that was another of those WTF moments last night, Willard meandering off about women and getting married before jumping on the nut that was F&F and even then sounding like it was something he'd only read about in a clipping from the New York Post.

The segue to Fast and Furious was repulsive. Then he literally blamed Obama for all the violent crime in America most of it revolving around the drug war until Crowley had to shut him down because that really wasn't the question. I can't stand him.

250 Targetpractice  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:42:57am

re: #247 Decatur Deb

Yes. His tutors are going to have to wind the Mitt-doll very tight before the last debate.

Last debate is about foreign policy, something that apparently the Romneybot wasn't properly programmed for. It seems he likes to wander off course and into a wall when he feels that he's losing the argument.

251 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:42:59am
252 Mocking Jay  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:43:23am

re: #244 Gus

[Embedded content]

Our very own Ministry of Truth!

253 Lidane  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:44:25am

re: #244 Gus

Too bad for Faux News that YouTube exists.

254 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:46:02am

re: #253 Lidane

Too bad for Faux News that YouTube exists.

Wouldn't matter. Most Romney voters are in high denial. They'll vote for any WHITE candidate.

255 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:46:21am

Report: Hezbollah drone made in Germany

Lebanese newspaper Al-Jumhuriyah reported Wednesday that the equipment onboard the Hezbollah drone that infiltrated Israeli airspace was manufactured in Germany.

It was reportedly purchased by a dummy Iranian corporation which arms the Revolutionary Guards.

The Lebanese newspaper named Germany's Siemens and Bockstiegel as the companies from which the equipment was acquired.

256 Targetpractice  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:46:31am

re: #249 Gus

The segue to Fast and Furious was repulsive. Then he literally blamed Obama for all the violent crime in America most of it revolving around the drug war until Crowley had to shut him down because that really wasn't the question. I can't stand him.

Again, I repeat my gratitude for Crowley as the moderator last night.

257 Sionainn  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:49:10am

re: #254 Gus

Wouldn't matter. Most Romney voters are in high denial. They'll vote for any WHITE candidate.

Just take a look over at Fox Nation. They are delusional.

258 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:49:27am

Pathetic.

259 Decatur Deb  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:50:54am

re: #257 Sionainn

Just take a look over at Fox Nation. They are delusional.

"I'm Delusional and I Vote"

260 Mocking Jay  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:52:23am

re: #258 Gus

Pathetic.

[Embedded content]

o.O

261 Targetpractice  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:52:53am

Well, it's time I got back to the coal mine. AFK

263 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:53:35am

Butthurt wingnut desperately spinning, spinning, spinning

Little factoid: this guy is so full of FAIL. He was appointed by the NY GOP to be their "Jewish outreach" but forced to step down after he was outed with connections to the Ahmadinejad-smooching Neturei Karta. Remember that whenever some wingnut claims Obama is "anti-Israel" and has anti-Zionists on the "Rabbis for Obama" web page.

264 Mocking Jay  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:55:05am
266 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:00:01am

Ok, so on Washington Journal this morning, a woman said she couldn't vote for Obama, because of Terry Schaivo.
WTF!?!

267 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:00:16am

Obviously it was not last night's debate.

268 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:01:11am

So these drill baby drill people want to basically drill all over the states. Where are we going to store all of that oil? Because it would outpace refining capability. Then you replace oil imports which are primarily from Canada. That still won't change the price per barrel which is set in the commodities market. Right now it makes no sense for oil companies to drill beyond demand.

269 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:02:26am

re: #251 NJDhockeyfan

Director of Secret Service suspected of lying about Colombian hooker scandal: report nyp.st/RFm3ck

— New York Post (@NewYorkPost) October 17, 2012

Who put that lying sac in that position?

270 Lidane  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:02:37am
271 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:06:28am

re: #266 Reverend Mother Ramallo

Ok, so on Washington Journal this morning, a woman said she couldn't vote for Obama, because of Terry Schaivo.
WTF!?!

I can't vote for Rmoney because of Lou Albano.

272 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:07:54am

re: #269 Eventual Carrion

Who put that lying sac in that position?

That's from the New Post linking to Faux News who begins with...

An investigation for the agency that oversees the U.S. Secret Service suggests Director Mark Sullivan lied during his congressional testimony in the Colombia prostitution scandal that ensnared 13 of his agents, multiple law enforcement officials and congressional sources tell FoxNews.com.

Multiple sources tell FoxNews.com!

Cough.

273 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:07:57am

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

What did Obama say in the Rose Garden a day after the attack in Libya? We covered this previously in our extensive timeline of administration statements on Libya.

“No acts of terror will ever shake the resolve of this nation, alter that character, or eclipse the light of the values that we stand for,” Obama said.

But the president did not say “terrorism”— and Romney got tripped up when he repeated the “act of terror” phrasing.

Otherwise, Romney’s broader point is accurate — that it took the administration days to concede that the assault on the U.S. mission in Benghazi was an “act of terrorism” that appears unrelated to initial reports of anger at a video that defamed the prophet Muhammad. (The reporting is contradictory on whether there was indeed a demonstration outside the mission.) By our count, it took eight days for an administration official to concede that the deaths in Libya were the result of a “terrorist attack.”

More to Romney’s point, Obama continued to resist saying the “T” word, instead repeatedly bringing up the video, even in a speech to the U.N. General Assembly on Sept. 25. On Sept. 26 — 15 days after the attack — the White House spokesman felt compelled to assert “it is certainly the case that it is our view as an administration, the president’s view, that it was a terrorist attack.”

274 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:09:34am

[Link: www.politifact.com...]

The candidates tangled over the Obama administration's response to the recent attack in Libya that claimed the life of the U.S. ambassador and three other Americans. Romney said, "It took the president 14 days before he called the attack in Benghazi an act of terror." In fact, Obama described it in those terms the day after the attack. But in the days that followed, neither he nor all the members of his administration spoke consistently on the subject. There were many suggestions that the attack was part of demonstrations over an American-made video that disparaged Islam. We rated Romney's statement Half True.

275 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:10:03am

re: #273 Killgore Trout

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

Bullshit.

276 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:11:33am

[Link: factcheck.org...]

The transcript does show that Obama said in a Rose Garden speech on Sept. 12: “No acts of terror will ever shake the resolve of this great nation, alter that character, or eclipse the light of the values that we stand for.” That night, he said at a Las Vegas fundraiser: “No act of terror will dim the light of the values that we proudly shine on the rest of the world, and no act of violence will shake the resolve of the United States of America.”

But Romney isn’t entirely wrong. Romney claimed Obama refused for two weeks after the Benghazi attack to call it a terrorist attack and, instead, blamed it on a spontaneous demonstration in response to an anti-Muslim video that earlier that day triggered a violent protest in Egypt.

The president did seem to suggest in his Rose Garden speech that a reason for the Benghazi attack was the video. Obama said: “Since our founding, the United States has been a nation that respects all faiths. We reject all efforts to denigrate the religious beliefs of others. But there is absolutely no justification to this type of senseless violence. None.”

It is also true that Obama, after the Rose Garden speech and Las Vegas event the same day, refrained from characterizing the attack as an act of terrorism. The administration adopted a wait-and-see position, deflecting questions until the investigation into the attack could be completed. State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland, for example, was asked in a Sept. 17 press briefing if the administration considered the Benghazi attack an act of terror. She said: “Again, I’m not going to put labels on this until we have a complete investigation, okay?”

Obama refused to characterize it as a terrorist attack even after others in the administration said it was.

Matt Olsen, head of the National Counterterrorism Center, testified on Sept. 19 that it was a “terrorist attack.” He also said the administration still lacked “specific intelligence that there was a significant advanced planning or coordination for this attack.”

277 Lidane  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:12:36am

Posted without comment:

278 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:12:40am

re: #274 Killgore Trout

They might rate it as half true, but when the President says the next day that it was an act of terror, and subsequent to that point other officials suggest the possibility of an event that isn't mutually exclusive does nothing to alter the fact that the President called it an act of terror.

I call that "fact check" - half-assed.

279 Obdicut  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:13:04am

re: #273 Killgore Trout

What utter bullshit.

He said it was an act of terror, he said that justice would be done. He was clearly talking about Benghazi.

I love it how they say Romney's 'broader' point is true, when what they actually mean is that a very narrow point is true-- that the specific word 'terrorism' wasn't used.

How do you fall for this bullshit?

280 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:13:19am

Terror, terrorist, terrorism... fuck you Neocons.

281 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:13:22am

re: #277 Lidane

So, his hair is taking credit for mind-control? /

282 Lidane  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:15:05am

re: #273 Killgore Trout

Ah. So you're on board with redefining words to make Mitt Romney feel better.

Good to know.

283 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:15:10am

re: #281 lawhawk

So, his hair is taking credit for mind-control? /

284 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:15:25am

Controversies as Washington Post Fact Checker

As Washington Post Fact Checker, Kessler rates statements by politicians, usually on a range of one to four Pinocchios--with one Pinocchio for minor shading of the facts and four Pinocchios for outright lies.[15] If the statement is truthful, the person will get a rare “Geppetto.” Advocates on both the right and the left have criticized him for some of his rulings, and he is regularly denounced as being either a liberal or a conservative[citation needed]. Yet other readers have praised him for apparently even-handed treatment of both parties.[16][17]

Kessler gave Four Pinocchios to Mitt Romney for claiming President Obama went on an “apology tour” overseas,[18] but he also has regularly given as many as Four Pinocchios to Democrats for attacks on the House Republican plan for Medicare.[19] A writer for the New York Times said that Kessler’s analysis of Obama’s statements on the Israel-Palestinian conflict should be “should be required reading this week for those wishing for a clearer understanding.”[20]

A columnist for the Wall Street Journal attacked the whole idea of awarding Pinocchios as akin to movie-reviewing, saying “the ‘fact check’ is opinion journalism or criticism, masquerading as straight news.[21] The conservative-leaning Power Line political blog devoted three articles to critiquing one of Kessler’s articles, calling him a “liberal reporter,” and asserting that “these ‘fact-checkers’ nearly always turn out to be liberal apologists who don a false mantle of objectivity in order to advance the cause of the Democratic Party.”[22] Kessler’s awarding of Four Pinocchios to GOP presidential candidate Herman Cain for comments he made on Margaret Sanger and the founding of Planned Parenthood was also criticized by opponents of abortion.[23] Yet Power Line also said that Kessler's extensive review of Democratic charges that Romney was a "flip-flopper" turned out to be "admirably fair-minded."[24]

The liberal-leaning Talking Points Memo took Kessler to task for giving Four Pinocchios to a Democratic web petition on Medicare, saying the errors he allegedly made “were not just small misses, but big belly flop misses.”[25] The Obama White House issued a statement titled “Fact Checking the Fact Checker” after Kessler gave Obama Three Pinocchios for statements he made on the auto industry bailout.[26] The Democratic National Committee released a statement denouncing “Kessler’s hyperbolic, over the top fact check of the DNC’s assertion that Mitt Romney supports private Social Security accounts.”[27]

In a letter to Power Line, Kessler wrote: “I have no political convictions but to the truth....Don’t assume my politics, because either from the right or left, no one really has any clue. I am strictly nonpartisan—which, to some people, appears to be the most irritating thing of all.”.[28] Politico has reported that Kessler "sometimes struggles with his own measure of truth or 'truthiness,' the Pinocchio...but that it offers him a measure of consistency and is defined in a way that avoids presuming that someone intended to mislead. The obvious truths and falsehoods are relatively easy to assign, but the area in the middle can be hazy. “'Two and three Pinocchios, that gets difficult,' he said.”[29]

According to a history of political fact-checking, Kessler says "he has received calls from senior politicians wanting to know what they need to do in order to avoid receiving more Pinocchios. 'I have learned my lesson,' said one errant member of the House of Representatives. 'I am not going to utter another word on this subject without having my staff check it over.'”[30]

285 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:15:40am

re: #278 lawhawk

They might rate it as half true, but when the President says the next day that it was an act of terror, and subsequent to that point other officials suggest the possibility of an event that isn't mutually exclusive does nothing to alter the fact that the President called it an act of terror.

I call that "fact check" - half-assed.

More or less agreed. Obama did use the phrase "acts of terror" in the rose garden speech but the administration was a bit slow to drop blaming the spontaneous reaction to to the movie.

286 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:15:56am

Kessler is a great-grandson of Jean Baptiste August Kessler, who was largely responsible for the growth and development of the Royal Dutch Shell (Shell Oil Company) and a grandson of Geldolph Adriaan Kessler, who helped create the Dutch steel industry.[31] He was born in Cincinnati, where his father, Adriaan Kessler, was an executive at Procter & Gamble, and he attended high school there and in Lexington, Kentucky.

287 Decatur Deb  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:16:11am

Scanning Memorandum and my selection of nutjob blogs shows the committed rw is soiling its collective nappies. That's metric enough for this round.

288 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:16:57am

re: #285 Killgore Trout

More or less agreed. Obama did use the phrase "acts of terror" in the rose garden speech but the administration was a bit slow to drop blaming the spontaneous reaction to to the movie.

Who the fuck cares. No one knew what was going on.

289 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:17:59am

re: #276 Killgore Trout

[Link: factcheck.org...]

[snip]
“No acts of terror will ever shake the resolve of this great nation, alter that character, or eclipse the light of the values that we stand for.”

[snip]

What words came right after that quote? Why are they always left off? Agenda? Here they are if you have forgotten:

Today we mourn four more Americans who represent the very best of the United States of America. We will not waver in our commitment to see that justice is done for this terrible act. And make no mistake, justice will be done.

What acts of terror do you think he was talking about? An abortion clinic bombing? A shooting of a doctor in his place of worship? The fire bombing of a Mosque? What "terrible act" was he talking about, an "act of terrorism" as he stated previously?

290 Obdicut  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:18:02am

re: #284 Gus

columnist for the Wall Street Journal attacked the whole idea of awarding Pinocchios as akin to movie-reviewing, saying “the ‘fact check’ is opinion journalism or criticism, masquerading as straight news.

This is the bit that gets me. It's been sad to see presumably intelligent people tripping over themselves to love the Factcheckers when, by and large, they're a marketing ploy, and they're just old media rebranding themselves.

Well, marketing works. They knew what they were doing.

291 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:19:45am

re: #159 Sheila Broflovski

[Embedded content]

Youtube Video

Merlin knew it!

292 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:21:15am

re: #172 Sheila Broflovski

When you are traveling, what is better to have as a carryon, a backpack or a rolling case?

I favor a backpack since you can put it on your back to free hands up if necessary. I tend to travel with a backpack that has proper padding for a laptop and a small duffle bag. The latter is soft enough to squeeze into overhead storage on airplanes with some degree of flexibility.

293 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:21:19am

WTF? What planet do these people live on?

294 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:21:31am

Do we have a consensus the Factcheck dot org is more reliable? Funded by Annenberg BTW.

[Link: factcheck.org...]

Just a little excerpt that summarizes in part

Both candidates repeated false or misleading claims they have made, and we have rebutted, many times before. Obama repeated his claim that he wouldn’t put tax rates for affluent families higher than they were under Bill Clinton. Actually, he’s already signed two new taxes that will also fall on those same high-income persons. And Romney accused Obama of saying “no” to the Keystone XL pipeline. Actually, no final decision has been made, and the company says it expects to win approval and start construction early next year.

For full details on these and other claims in this spin-filled debate, along with links to original sources and full source citations, please read on to our Analysis section.
Analysis

The second debate between President Barack Obama and his Republican challenger, Mitt Romney, was held at Hofstra University on New York’s Long Island. It was a town-meeting affair in which both candidates frequently interrupted and contradicted each other.

295 Mocking Jay  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:22:06am

re: #274 Killgore Trout

This is getting really sad.

296 Bulworth  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:23:24am

I think all Mitt meant to say was that, had he been president, he would have gotten OBL. ///

297 Obdicut  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:24:31am

re: #294 Daniel Ballard

It's a little more reliable, but they've still had some huge boneriffic mistakes in pursuit of false equality. They vary wildly their standards in whether they're judging the literal or figurative truth. I think it'd help them a lot if they wrote clear guidelines for themselves and followed them.

298 makeitstop  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:24:55am

re: #268 Gus

So these drill baby drill people want to basically drill all over the states. Where are we going to store all of that oil? Because it would outpace refining capability. Then you replace oil imports which are primarily from Canada. That still won't change the price per barrel which is set in the commodities market. Right now it makes no sense for oil companies to drill beyond demand.

Yeah, Romney claiming he'd make the US energy independent in 8 years was one of the most ridiculous things he said last night. It ain't even possible.

299 ShaunP  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:25:01am

re: #293 Sheila Broflovski

WTF? What planet do these people live on?

[Embedded content]

Cognitive Dissonance is a powerful thing. Not to go all Godwin, but there are people who deny the holocaust because it doesn't fit into their world view. That little fact just reminds me how easy it is for people to twist things in their minds.

Facts don't matter, my friend. Now excuse me while I bang my head on my keyboard...


agdhoih[awg]-aweg[0hawg]h-8h-q]=UWE8YEWG

300 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:25:16am

re: #294 Daniel Ballard

Do we have a consensus the Factcheck dot org is more reliable? Funded by Annenberg BTW.

I prefer politifact but they're all decent in my book. Factcheck.org is good but they get a little snarky sometimes. The only consensus you'll find here is the fact checkers are good when they bust Republicans and outrageous liars for busting Dems. Sadly, it's just that simple.

301 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:26:52am

re: #300 Killgore Trout

I prefer politifact but they're all decent in my book. Factcheck.org is good but they get a little snarky sometimes. The only consensus you'll find here is the fact checkers are good when they bust Republicans and outrageous liars for busting Dems. Sadly, it's just that simple.

Yep. It's just that simple. Fuck Romney. So tell me. Where will you get an abortion if Roe v. Wade is overturned because of Romney?

302 dragonath  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:28:14am

The most insane debate thing in that entire debate (for me) was Romney's off hand remark about dropping the capital gains tax to zero. So you can work your ass off and still pay more taxes than someone like him.

303 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:28:53am
304 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:28:55am

re: #301 Gus

Yep. It's just that simple. Fuck Romney. So tell me. Where will you get an abortion if Roe v. Wade is overturned because of Romney?

Killgore Trout can get an abortion? Sounds physically impossible.

305 erik_t  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:29:00am

re: #300 Killgore Trout

I prefer politifact but they're all decent in my book. Factcheck.org is good but they get a little snarky sometimes. The only consensus you'll find here is the fact checkers are good when they bust Republicans and outrageous liars for busting Dems. Sadly, it's just that simple.

Mostly False.

The tiniest fucking violin on earth is playing just for you.

306 makeitstop  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:29:04am

Fact checkers. Fuck 'em all.

307 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:29:11am

re: #301 Gus

Yep. It's just that simple. Fuck Romney. So tell me. Where will you get an abortion if Roe v. Wade is overturned because of Romney?

I don't need an abortion right now but I'm hoping that Obamacare will change my insurance coverage to include vasectomies.

308 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:29:40am

re: #304 NJDhockeyfan

Killgore Trout can get an abortion? Sounds physically impossible.

I'd like one anyways.

309 Obdicut  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:33:14am

re: #300 Killgore Trout

I prefer politifact but they're all decent in my book. Factcheck.org is good but they get a little snarky sometimes. The only consensus you'll find here is the fact checkers are good when they bust Republicans and outrageous liars for busting Dems. Sadly, it's just that simple.

The fact checkers are good when they get things right, and they're bad when they get it wrong. They've said plenty of things that are true and negative about Obama, and Democrats in general.

Here's a good example, where Obama distorted something that a GOP congresswoman said-- distorted it badly and dishonestly.

[Link: www.factcheck.org...]

Can you explain why you think someone calling themselves a factchecker imbues them with any actual ability to factcheck? Why do you fight so hard against the idea of factchecking the factcheckers?

310 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:34:12am

re: #302 dragonath

The most insane debate thing in that entire debate (for me) was Romney's off hand remark about dropping the capital gains tax to zero. So you can work your ass off and still pay more taxes than someone like him.

Yeah, he's going to cut taxes across the board for everyone, build more battleships and submarines, and then complains about the $14 trillion deficit.

311 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:34:12am

re: #304 NJDhockeyfan

Killgore Trout can get an abortion? Sounds physically impossible.

You don't get it do you?

312 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:35:03am

re: #304 NJDhockeyfan

Killgore Trout can get an abortion? Sounds physically impossible.

You don't have to be pregnant to get an abortion.

313 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:35:15am

WTF is this shit?

314 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:36:35am

re: #308 Killgore Trout

I'd like one anyways.

"I'm pregnant! Woo hoo, now I can have an abortion! "
~ Mr. Garrison: [now Mrs. Garrison]

315 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:36:43am

re: #304 NJDhockeyfan

Killgore Trout can get an abortion? Sounds physically impossible.

re: #308 Killgore Trout

I'd like one anyways.

See, what we're seeing here is a typical male response. Getting an abortion is only a "woman's problem." The male takes no responsibility. Thanks for making this clear.

316 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:37:36am

re: #306 makeitstop

So with that and no serious fact checking by the news hounds, and pundits that only partisan fact check we get nothing.

Not a great way to run an election. As to the factcheckers in general- Better to have something imperfect than nothing at all. Someone should do a good study on confirmation bias and it's effect on reactions to fact checks in this election.

317 erik_t  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:39:32am

re: #316 Daniel Ballard

Not a great way to run an election. As to the factcheckers in general- Better to have something imperfect than nothing at all. Someone should do a good study on confirmation bias and it's effect on reactions to fact checks in this election.

Well, no. Hypothetically, a 'fact checker' could correctly call every Democratic lie a lie, and choose not to investigate any Republican claims. This would be imperfect. Would it be better than nothing?

318 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:39:57am

Who would say factcheck dot org is wrong in these assertions-

Romney said repeatedly he won’t cut taxes for the wealthy, a switch from his position during the GOP primaries, when he said the top 1 percent would be among those to benefit.

Romney said “a recent study has shown” that taxes “will” rise on the middle class by $4,000 as a result of federal debt increases since Obama took office. Not true. That’s just one possible way debt service could be financed.

Romney claimed 580,000 women have lost jobs under Obama. The true figure is closer to 93,000.

Romney claimed the automakers’ bankruptcy that Obama implemented was “precisely what I recommend.” Romney did favor a bankruptcy followed by federal loan guarantees, but not the direct federal aid that Obama insists was essential.

Romney said he would keep Pell Grants for low-income college students “growing.” That’s a change. Both Romney and his running mate, Ryan, have previously said they’d limit eligibility.

319 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:40:39am

HAV MOAR FAIL

320 Obdicut  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:42:20am

re: #316 Daniel Ballard

Most of the fact-checkers are the newshounds.

The factcheckers aren't even anything new. They have a new format, but they're not new: it's just people saying "What X said last night is a lie, here's why". That's been going on in journalism forever. What's happened now is that someone found a marketing term for it "Factchecking".

The irony, of course, being that all media should be 'factchecking' anyway.

And neither is Annenberg's thing new. Non-partisan groups, think-tanks of various kinds, have also been doing analysis of political statements forever, too.

The only difference is format and name.

If they really, really want to take it seriously, then they can write guidelines. They can decide to always judge the literal statement-- which is kind of useless, as shown by the above Benghazi failure in factchecking-- or always the figurative. They can decide whether they're going to go after assumptions as well as logic. They can come up with an actual structure. Right now, it's just all ad-hoc, it's just what some guys think about the subject and is really no different than any other opinion article.

321 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:42:34am

re: #318 Daniel Ballard

Who would say factcheck dot org is wrong in these assertions-

Those are all completely correct. They made up all the stuff about Obama.

322 The Mongoose  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:44:02am

re: #319 Sheila Broflovski

HAV MOAR FAIL

[Embedded content]

Well if you break one and drink the mercury, yeah, I would think bad things would happen. Otherwise, wtf?

323 wrenchwench  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:45:18am

re: #294 Daniel Ballard

Do we have a consensus ... ?

The answer to that question at LGF is always "No."

324 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:45:20am

re: #319 Sheila Broflovski

HAV MOAR FAIL

Remember, new "environment friendly"lightbulbs can cause cancer. Be careful-- the idiots who came up with this stuff don't care.

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 17, 2012

Hey Donnie, burning petroleum in your limo DOES cause cancer. What idiots keep pushing for its continued use?

325 Decatur Deb  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:45:44am

re: #323 wrenchwench

The answer to that question at LGF is always "No."

Thank god.

326 Obdicut  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:46:06am

re: #318 Daniel Ballard

Factcheck is right about a lot of assertions. I gave an example of an assertion they made about Obama, a negative one, above.

I give arguments from factcheckers exactly the same level of scrutiny and respect I give any other opinions from non-whackaloons. I look at their argument, I look at the facts, and I make my own decision about how well their assertion holds up.

The main problem with the 'factcheck' brand is that it's hubris. It's claiming to be the high arbiter of truth, to somehow, in some way, be above all the others who are offering their views. That's what brings them in for what may seem to you like extra criticism-- they're claiming to be the judges of truth, so errors on their part are more egregious.

327 Sionainn  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:46:24am

re: #288 Gus

Who the fuck cares. No one knew what was going on.

People want instant gratification. Too bad life doesn't work that way.

328 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:46:41am

Roe v. Wade is just a joke. "A woman's problem." A point of humor.

Got it.

329 Sionainn  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:48:38am

re: #300 Killgore Trout

I prefer politifact but they're all decent in my book. Factcheck.org is good but they get a little snarky sometimes. The only consensus you'll find here is the fact checkers are good when they bust Republicans and outrageous liars for busting Dems. Sadly, it's just that simple.

Bullshit.

330 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:53:48am

re: #317 erik_t

Well then hypothetically I would be wrong. More realistically we are not up against your scenario.

331 makeitstop  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:53:56am

re: #316 Daniel Ballard

So with that and no serious fact checking by the news hounds, and pundits that only partisan fact check we get nothing.

But is it really needed? Honestly? Why don't people do their own research and draw their own conclusions instead of being spoon-fed 'facts' - which are often either dead wrong or colored by an agenda? It smacks of laziness to me, letting other people determine whether you think something is true, or half-true or whatever.

Not a great way to run an election. As to the factcheckers in general- Better to have something imperfect than nothing at all. Someone should do a good study on confirmation bias and it's effect on reactions to fact checks in this election.

I have no use for them, right or wrong. Not saying that you're bringing my confirmation bias into this, but that effects my opinion of so-called fact checkers in no way whatsoever.

332 Mocking Jay  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:54:29am

re: #322 The Mongoose

Well if you break one and drink the mercury, yeah, I would think bad things would happen. Otherwise, wtf?

Why are we not talking about the ever-present threat of thermometers?

333 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:54:38am

STFU You Freaking Putz

334 wrenchwench  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:55:37am
335 makeitstop  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:57:21am

re: #333 Sheila Broflovski

STFU You Freaking Putz

[Embedded content]

His personal assistant put an extra couple of spoonfuls of stupid in his coffee this morning.

336 wheat-dogg  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 8:58:57am

re: #322 The Mongoose

Well if you break one and drink the mercury, yeah, I would think bad things would happen. Otherwise, wtf?

Mercury does not cause cancer, AFAIK, but it does attack the nervous system if you are continually in contact with it. One busted fluorescent bulb, compact or not, is not going to kill you or even give you cancer. Now if you made a habit of breaking them, for some dumb reason, then you're putting yourself at risk.

It's old news, and maybe The Donald isn't up on the latest tech, but hatters in the old days used mercury compounds to make felt hats. Hence, the phrase, "mad as a hatter."

337 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:01:23am

re: #326 Obdicut

The main problem with the 'factcheck' brand is that it's hubris. It's claiming to be the high arbiter of truth, to somehow, in some way, be above all the others who are offering their views. That's what brings them in for what may seem to you like extra criticism-- they're claiming to be the judges of truth, so errors on their part are more egregious.

This is where I disagree. You have omitted a rather large aspect. Fact checking is a different purpose or intent in task at hand. The news reports a speech, a fact checker (maybe online maybe in print) evaluates it for accuracy as they see fit. Two differing job descriptions, each needed to feed information out. Since news people just report the whole speech and may not even give the opposition a sound bite we see the need for someone to check over the speech. or campaign commercial.

Let's look at a wildly biased place on the left. Media Matters. They do a one sided fact check that often serves a good informational purpose. Sometimes they get it wrong.

But are we sorry they are there?

338 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:02:58am

re: #336 wheatdogg

Mercury does not cause cancer, AFAIK, but it does attack the nervous system if you are continually in contact with it. One busted fluorescent bulb, compact or not, is not going to kill you or even give you cancer. Now if you made a habit of breaking them, for some dumb reason, then you're putting yourself at risk.

It's old news, and maybe The Donald isn't up on the latest tech, but hatters in the old days used mercury compounds to make felt hats. Hence, the phrase, "mad as a hatter."

Mercury has not been used in making thermometers for decades. Also: most thermometers now are digital.

339 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:04:18am

re: #324 Eventual Carrion

Mercury in CFLs - on the order of 4-5 mg for older CFLs. Newer CFLs have less than 1 mg.

A pound has 453,592 mg.

Nationally, coal fired power plants emit more than 50 tons of mercury into the air. A ton is 2,000 pounds. That's 45,359,237,000 mg per year of mercury emitted by power plants. That's 45.3 billion mg per year of mercury emitted by power plants.

Using CFLs reduces the emissions by all power plants, including those coal fired ones. CFLs wont release any mercury into the atmosphere if they don't break open to release their contents (and the release is a fraction of the old thermometers that people used to check their kids' temps with). And if they did, it's still a fraction of the amounts released by power plants.

Reducing mercury exposure can improve health across the board - including intellectual development in people downwind of power plants as well as toxicity.

Coal-fired power plants are the largest source of mercury pollution in the country, with 2/3 of all airborne mercury pollution coming from these power plants. They emit mercury into our air, which then falls into our waterways with rain or snow, where it builds up in fish and enters the food chain. Even a small drop of mercury is enough to make the fish in a 25-acre lake unsafe to eat.

340 lostlakehiker  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:04:32am
Good for the moderator! I posted the video the day after the attack, yet simple minded people are still droning on about this because they are seemingly incapable of considering that the attack in Benghazi was two things at once.

Some of the people were there in reaction to the movie, and some of the people were there for a terror attack. Both can be true, they are not mutually exclusive.

But in reality, none of the people were there in reaction to the movie, and all of them were there for the assault. There was no demonstration in front of the Benghazi consulate. Just, suddenly, men flitting through the darkness from cover to cover, going over the walls, classic fire and movement stuff.

And all this was information available to the administration pretty much in real time. Definitely available within a day. Susan Rice, though, was sent out to several talk shows the following Sunday to say otherwise. Adamantly, repeatedly, and falsely. Whether she knew that she'd been sent out to tell lies, we cannot know for sure.

341 dragonath  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:05:09am

re: #326 Obdicut

The main problem with the 'factcheck' brand is that it's hubris. It's claiming to be the high arbiter of truth, to somehow, in some way, be above all the others who are offering their views. That's what brings them in for what may seem to you like extra criticism-- they're claiming to be the judges of truth, so errors on their part are more egregious.

Oh god yes. I can't take Politifact seriously because they make every one of their "rulings" sound as if they are a grand pronouncement from a council of elder archons or something.

342 Decatur Deb  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:05:47am

Why are people refuting Trump? I'd rather teach my dog to play Scrabble.

343 erik_t  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:07:08am

re: #337 Daniel Ballard

This is where I disagree. You have omitted a rather large aspect. Fact checking is a different purpose or intent in task at hand. The news reports a speech, a fact checker (maybe online maybe in print) evaluates it for accuracy as they see fit. Two differing job descriptions, each needed to feed information out. Since news people just report the whole speech and may not even give the opposition a sound bite we see the need for someone to check over the speech. or campaign commercial.

I'm sorry, but that's inane. If all I need is a repeat of a fucking press release, hell, I can go to a campaign website for that.

344 The Mongoose  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:07:33am

re: #336 wheatdogg

Mercury does not cause cancer, AFAIK, but it does attack the nervous system if you are continually in contact with it. One busted fluorescent bulb, compact or not, is not going to kill you or even give you cancer. Now if you made a habit of breaking them, for some dumb reason, then you're putting yourself at risk.

It's old news, and maybe The Donald isn't up on the latest tech, but hatters in the old days used mercury compounds to make felt hats. Hence, the phrase, "mad as a hatter."

Maybe he's come up with a new theory that LEDs give you the skin cancer.

345 Obdicut  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:07:54am

re: #337 Daniel Ballard

This is where I disagree. You have omitted a rather large aspect. Fact checking is a different purpose or intent in task at hand. The news reports a speech, a fact checker (maybe online maybe in print) evaluates it for accuracy as they see fit.

Nope. Plenty of newspeople, before this, also included analysis for accuracy. It is not a new thing.

Two differing job descriptions, each needed to feed information out.

There is no reason at all why one can't report facts accurately and evaluate claims for accuracy at the same time. It doesn't have to be split in two. In fact, what the Factcheck places do always involves just reporting on what happened as well, to state the facts.

Let's look at a wildly biased place on the left. Media Matters. They do a one sided fact check that often serves a good informational purpose. Sometimes they get it wrong.

Yes. They sometimes get it wrong, and sometimes right.

But are we sorry they are there?

Why are you asking this? I'm not sorry the factcheckers exist. I am sorry that they don't do a better job of it, but i'm sorry that all the media doesn't. They're just not any different than anyone else out there, to me, and I don't understand why people treat them as though they are different.

346 blueraven  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:08:49am

re: #340 lostlakehiker

But in reality, none of the people were there in reaction to the movie, and all of them were there for the assault. There was no demonstration in front of the Benghazi consulate. Just, suddenly, men flitting through the darkness from cover to cover, going over the walls, classic fire and movement stuff.

And all this was information available to the administration pretty much in real time. Definitely available within a day. Susan Rice, though, was sent out to several talk shows the following Sunday to say otherwise. Adamantly, repeatedly, and falsely. Whether she knew that she'd been sent out to tell lies, we cannot know for sure.

The NYT had an article yesterday that disputes this. Saying there was, in fact, an angry protest over the video before the actual attack.

347 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:09:30am

Factchecking for us is an array of possible sources. Some are biased far more than others. Since we have humans involved we will never have the opportunity to have such a thing to a degree that will satisfy the critics at all times. Add in sour grapes thinking and you see the amplification factor of dissatisfaction.

So should we get rid of them, ignore their every word because of the imperfections? Media matters, politifact, factcheck, Snopes,.... Leave it to just the pundits like The Ed Show or Rush?

I say we are better off with them than without as long as we keep our heads in the game.

A semi comprehensive list of them is here

348 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:10:20am

re: #343 erik_t

I explicitly laid out the difference. NOT just a repeat.

349 Obdicut  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:10:22am

re: #347 Daniel Ballard

Why are you putting up the strawman of getting rid of the fatcheckers or ignoring them?

Really, you keep saying this, but nobody, at all, has made that claim.

So why do you keep asking that ludicrous question?

350 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:11:31am

re: #345 Obdicut

So why has Politifact and Politifact get so much criticism here and Media Matters not so much?

351 erik_t  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:11:59am

re: #348 Daniel Ballard

I explicitly laid out the difference. NOT just a repeat.

You said: "Since news people just report the whole speech".

If all they are doing is reporting the whole speech, and they're not doing anything else... how is that not functionally just a repeat?

352 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:12:20am

re: #344 The Mongoose

Maybe he's worried that exposure to LEDs might make his hair become self aware and begin its inexorable march to universal domination. /

353 The Mongoose  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:13:09am

re: #352 lawhawk

Maybe he's worried that exposure to LEDs might make his hair become self aware and begin its inexorable march to universal domination. /

And now that's going to be in my head all day.

354 Obdicut  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:13:42am

re: #350 Daniel Ballard

So why has Politifact and Politifact get so much criticism here and Media Matters not so much?

I'd say it's because people cite factcheck a lot more often. It's become really trendy. I'd also say it's because Media Matters makes no pretense at being unbiased or non-judgmental.

Go back over the past few weeks and count up the links to and references to the facthceckers vs. media matters, and I think you'll find the answer there.

355 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:13:48am

re: #351 erik_t

Oh I misunderstood you. Hey, some folks miss the speech or event and the news is it for them. If you saw the speech you don't need the news. But you might appreciate a factual rundown of assertions made in the speech by a fact check.

356 wheat-dogg  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:14:01am

re: #352 lawhawk

Like feeding tribbles?

357 Decatur Deb  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:14:28am

Like political pollsters, fact-checkers need an ANSI/ISO standard. (Ain't gonna happen.) Without a credible consequence-based policing mechanism they are just a higher level of satisfying our own biases.

358 kirkspencer  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:15:31am

re: #309 Obdicut

The fact checkers are good when they get things right, and they're bad when they get it wrong. They've said plenty of things that are true and negative about Obama, and Democrats in general.

Here's a good example, where Obama distorted something that a GOP congresswoman said-- distorted it badly and dishonestly.

[Link: www.factcheck.org...]

Can you explain why you think someone calling themselves a factchecker imbues them with any actual ability to factcheck? Why do you fight so hard against the idea of factchecking the factcheckers?

The weakness of the fact-checkers is that they have to deal with an issue that by its nature cannot be simple black and white. They're not dealing with T/F or even multiple choice tests but with essays. They have to determine not only the mix of true and false statements within the essay but with how the context as a whole is true or false. (Selective quoting being the best example here.)

And the shoal onto which they run is that a large part of the "truth" is subjective, not objective. Especially when they get to contextual evaluation.

As a result, no 'fact checker' should be taken as The Word. Unfortunately for the profession that goes a long way toward mooting the concept -- they become essentially yet another pundit. The only good thing is that at least they (usually) provide footnotes so they can be checked as well.

359 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:15:38am

re: #340 lostlakehiker

But in reality, none of the people were there in reaction to the movie, and all of them were there for the assault.

This is false.

360 freetoken  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:16:23am

Louie, Louie...

Rep. Gohmert: ‘Slavery was a blot’ but U.S. is worse off now

361 Sionainn  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:16:23am

re: #340 lostlakehiker

But in reality, none of the people were there in reaction to the movie, and all of them were there for the assault. There was no demonstration in front of the Benghazi consulate. Just, suddenly, men flitting through the darkness from cover to cover, going over the walls, classic fire and movement stuff.

And all this was information available to the administration pretty much in real time. Definitely available within a day. Susan Rice, though, was sent out to several talk shows the following Sunday to say otherwise. Adamantly, repeatedly, and falsely. Whether she knew that she'd been sent out to tell lies, we cannot know for sure.

Really? Why would they ALL be there for the assault and then some of them try to get the ambassador to the hospital?

362 The Mongoose  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:16:30am

re: #357 Decatur Deb

Like political pollsters, fact-checkers need an ANSI/ISO standard. (Ain't gonna happen.) Without a credible consequence-based policing mechanism they are just a higher level of satisfying our own biases.

Confirmation bias FTW. Everyone sees what they want to see.

363 wrenchwench  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:17:33am
364 Reverend Mother Ramallo  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:17:43am

re: #333 Sheila Broflovski

STFU You Freaking Putz

[Embedded content]

If I had his hair, I'd hate wind turbines too.

365 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:17:49am

re: #349 Obdicut

Did you not see this post maybe?

re: #306 makeitstop

Fact checkers. Fuck 'em all.

366 erik_t  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:18:08am

re: #354 Obdicut

I'd say it's because people cite factcheck a lot more often. It's become really trendy. I'd also say it's because Media Matters makes no pretense at being unbiased or non-judgmental.

I'd have a great deal more patience with factcheck or politifact or whatever if they did not attempt to slot each statement into a number-of-Pinocchios Falsity Rating (TM). Rare is the claim whose veracity can be reasonably distilled and divorced from context to that degree, and the grand pronouncement of such ratings does a profound disservice to the reader.

Give me a few paragraphs of facts and context. Let me decide what they mean, and to what extent that politician was being truthful literally, figuratively, and so on. Don't give me something cute and retweetable, because fuck Twitter in the ear.

367 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:19:23am

re: #356 wheatdogg

Tribbles are benign, except for Klingons off the starboard bow and quadrotriticale.

368 Decatur Deb  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:19:25am

re: #362 The Mongoose

Confirmation bias FTW. Everyone sees tends to see what they want to see.

De-tuned that for you.

369 wrenchwench  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:21:46am

re: #366 erik_t

Don't give me something cute and retweetable, because fuck Twitter in the ear.

Hey now, let's not go overboard.

370 The Mongoose  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:22:42am

re: #364 Reverend Mother Ramallo

If I had his hair, I'd hate wind turbines too.

Windmills do not work that way!

Youtube Video
371 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:23:21am

Having serious problems with the hamsters this morning.

372 efuseakay  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:24:05am

re: #361 Sionainn

Really? Why would they ALL be there for the assault and then some of them try to get the ambassador to the hospital?

Taquiyya... or something. SQUIRREL!!!

373 Obdicut  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:24:38am

re: #365 Daniel Ballard

Did you not see this post maybe?

re: #306 makeitstop

Oh for god's sake. You take '"Fuck 'em all" as a call for them to be put out of existence?

I really don't get what you're not understanding. Criticism for the fatcheckers is going to occur, because they're just people giving opinions about the truth of political statements. This is not something new. There is a fancy new term for it and it's a trendy way for media places to rebrand (and somehow pretend that they shouldn't be factchecking all the time).

I'm happy to read their arguments and evaluate them. I appreciate the work they put into their arguments. I wish that they'd put more work into setting standards for themselves and living up to to them, because they're very ad hoc and often fuck up.

I really don't understand why criticism of them is so threatening.

374 HappyWarrior  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:24:46am

re: #360 freetoken

Louie, Louie...

Rep. Gohmert: ‘Slavery was a blot’ but U.S. is worse off now

Yikes. And this isn't an uncommon mindset either.

375 freetoken  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:24:51am

re: #371 Gus

The web server hamsters are much, much older than the database hamsters.

Hamsters have short lives.

376 dragonath  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:24:59am

The Reuters writer who made an analogue between the debate moderators and the NFL referees needs a swift kick to his groin.

Figuratively, of course.

377 Decatur Deb  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:25:07am

re: #370 The Mongoose

Windmills do not work that way!

[Embedded content]

Sometimes.

[Link: xkcd.com...]

378 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:26:37am

re: #300 Killgore Trout

When are you just going to admit you want Rmoney to win?

379 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:27:48am

re: #375 freetoken

The web server hamsters are much, much older than the database hamsters.

Hamsters have short lives.

I can't wait until Charles gets the herd of duck-sized horses!

380 efuseakay  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:28:15am

re: #373 Obdicut

Oh for god's sake. You take '"Fuck 'em all" as a call for them to be put out of existence?

I really don't get what you're not understanding. Criticism for the fatcheckers is going to occur, because they're just people giving opinions about the truth of political statements. This is not something new. There is a fancy new term for it and it's a trendy way for media places to rebrand (and somehow pretend that they shouldn't be factchecking all the time).

I'm happy to read their arguments and evaluate them. I appreciate the work they put into their arguments. I wish that they'd put more work into setting standards for themselves and living up to to them, because they're very ad hoc and often fuck up.

I really don't understand why criticism of them is so threatening.

Simply because the are called "fact checkers". It's all in the name... like "Family Research Council". What could possibly be wrong with such a nice sounding name!

381 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:29:03am

re: #332 Mocking Jay

Why are we not talking about the ever-present threat of thermometers?

OK, thermometers it is.

What is the difference between a rectal thermometer and an oral one?

The taste.

382 freetoken  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:29:52am

Presidential debates say as much about US culture as candidates

American presidential campaigns provide a unique window into our society, according to a University of Michigan anthropologist.

"It says a lot about our culture that we pay so much attention to the clothing, gestures and hair styles of presidential candidates and to their performances in highly theatrical situations, like debates," said Michael Lempert, a linguistic anthropologist at the U-M.

[...]

Heh...

"It's really the 'TMZ-ization' of politics," Lempert said."We've become habituated to this. Basically, we've come to rely on the characterizations of candidates that this system has invented to help us make sense of which candidates we should support."

"As a society, we know that this is happening and that it's now the norm," Silverstein said. "But we still feel a certain sense of discomfort that marketing techniques that used to be applied only to commodities are now taken for granted in the packaging of presidential contenders."

This discomfort is expressed by our calling for rational discussion of the issues and by commentators' questions about whether the candidates that we're seeing are "real" or "authentic," the researchers say.

"Electoral politics has always involved presenting a publicly imaginable character to the electorate," Lempert said. "But today's communications technologies and the rise of professional consultancy and political marketing have amplified the race to be real, or to be seen as being real.

"So we not only have debates, but endless debates about the debates. Rather than just being a chance to talk about the issues, the debates are also a form of theater that allows viewers to take the measure of the candidates, through their appearance, their pronunciation, their use of gestures, even their gaffes."

This explains why George W. Bush, famous for his trouble with language, could be perceived to have done well in the 2004 presidential debate with John Kerry, the researchers say.

"Kerry was, ironically, viewed as being the more patrician, based on his grammar and elocution," Silverstein said. "And so he seemed like somebody who wasn't real. When you look at W's bloopers, they weren't really bloopers at all. They were deliberate efforts to seem real, like a regular person."

[...]

383 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:30:40am
384 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:31:55am

It's a bit long but worthwhile reading for those interested.

The Amazing Story of What Happened in Libya

385 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:32:45am

re: #382 freetoken

Presidential debates say as much about US culture as candidates

Heh...

Frankly. Most of the questions in both debates seem to center on white suburban males.

386 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:33:58am

re: #340 lostlakehiker

But in reality, none of the people were there in reaction to the movie, and all of them were there for the assault. There was no demonstration in front of the Benghazi consulate. Just, suddenly, men flitting through the darkness from cover to cover, going over the walls, classic fire and movement stuff.

And all this was information available to the administration pretty much in real time. Definitely available within a day. Susan Rice, though, was sent out to several talk shows the following Sunday to say otherwise. Adamantly, repeatedly, and falsely. Whether she knew that she'd been sent out to tell lies, we cannot know for sure.

And all the other protests around the world were just a facade too? Or this was the only place that the muslim people just didn't give a fuck about the movie?

387 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:34:26am

re: #377 Decatur Deb

Sometimes.

[Link: xkcd.com...]

Heh.

But I liked these windmills better...

[Link: xkcd.com...]

388 dragonath  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:36:13am

re: #363 wrenchwench

[Embedded content]

"...it is bound in the spiral-bind of Eregion, for there are no binders in Mordor for such subtle work..."

389 lostlakehiker  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:36:41am

re: #359 Charles Johnson

This is false.

No. It's true.

You are mistaken.

The attack

The assault on the Benghazi consulate[16] consisted of two separate attacks that forced the Americans from the consulate and then besieged them in a second building in a gunbattle that lasted four and half hours, according to a detailed timeline from a senior administration official.[17] According to the U.S. State Department, at 10:00 p.m. CAT, the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi was attacked by gunmen, who in minutes gained entry into the compound. A Libyan security guard who was wounded in the attack said in an interview that the area was quiet "until about 9:35 pm, when as many as 125 armed men descended on the compound from all directions."[18]

(italicized segment highlighted here for emphasis, but not originally italicized)

According to Wikipedia

390 erik_t  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:40:16am

re: #389 lostlakehiker

No. It's true.

You are mistaken.

According to Wikipedia

You cannot be serious. Countering the New York fucking Times with Wikipedia?

391 lostlakehiker  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:41:38am

re: #386 Eventual Carrion

And all the other protests around the world were just a facade too? Or this was the only place that the muslim people just didn't give a fuck about the movie?

One might have expected that there would have been demonstrations. But as it happens, in the runup to the attack itself, there were not.

If you are uncomfortable with flat facts, would you like a speculation? In Iraq, when a car bombing was imminent, the streets tended to be quiet. Somehow people knew that it was a good time to be elsewhere. This might explain the absence of demonstrations in front of the consulate at that time.

392 Obdicut  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:42:24am

re: #340 lostlakehiker

But in reality, none of the people were there in reaction to the movie, and all of them were there for the assault.

Why do you not consider the idea that the attack was a reaction to the movie?

393 darthstar  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:43:35am

As long as Romney wants to make Benghazi an argument about word choice, I'm happy for him to continue thinking that's a winning strategy. It just goes to show how shallow and superficial he is if he thinks shouting 'terrorism!' (FIRST!) is the key take away from this tragedy.

394 lostlakehiker  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:44:11am

re: #390 erik_t

You cannot be serious. Countering the New York fucking Times with Wikipedia?

You are actually going to insist that if it appears in the NYT, that makes it true? This is the newspaper that reported there was no famine in Stalin's Ukraine. This is the newspaper that mocked Robert Goddard and insisted that rockets wouldn't work in space.

395 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:44:31am

re: #389 lostlakehiker

No. It's true.

You are mistaken.

(italicized segment highlighted here for emphasis, but not originally italicized)

According to Wikipedia

Also see my #384. It's a first person account by one of the Americans who was in the compound during the assault.

396 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:44:40am

I'm glad we already have the facts on what happened in Benghazi while several official investigations are still underway.

It's scientific!

//

397 erik_t  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:44:43am

re: #394 lostlakehiker

You are actually going to insist that if it appears in the NYT, that makes it true? This is the newspaper that reported there was no famine in Stalin's Ukraine. This is the newspaper that mocked Robert Goddard and insisted that rockets wouldn't work in space.

I repeat myself: WIKIPEDIA? REALLY!?

398 dragonath  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:44:50am

re: #394 lostlakehiker

You are actually going to insist that if it appears in the NYT, that makes it true? This is the newspaper that reported there was no famine in Stalin's Ukraine. This is the newspaper that mocked Robert Goddard and insisted that rockets wouldn't work in space.

Wow, talk about digging up some old chestnuts.

399 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:47:14am

re: #373 Obdicut

Oh for god's sake. You take '"Fuck 'em all" as a call for them to be put out of existence?

Or ignored, left out of the debate entirely. Yes. Did you really see that as anything else but the harshest shorthand dismissal of them?

I really don't understand why criticism of them is so threatening.

Dismissing them out of hand is what I am objecting to.

400 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:47:16am

re: #390 erik_t

You cannot be serious. Countering the New York fucking Times with Wikipedia?

Here is a link from Wiki...

No protest before Benghazi attack, wounded Libyan guard says

BENGHAZI, Libya — A Libyan security guard who said he was at the U.S. consulate here when it was attacked Tuesday night has provided new evidence that the assault on the compound that left four Americans dead, including the U.S. ambassador to Libya, was a planned attack by armed Islamists and not the outgrowth of a protest over an online video that mocks Islam and its founder, the Prophet Muhammad.

The guard, interviewed Thursday in the hospital where he is being treated for five shrapnel wounds in one leg and two bullet wounds in the other, said that the consulate area was quiet – “there wasn’t a single ant outside,” he said – until about 9:35 p.m., when as many as 125 armed men descended on the compound from all directions.

The men lobbed grenades into the compound, wounding the guard and knocking him to the ground, then stormed through the facility’s main gate, shouting “God is great” and moving to one of the many villas that make up the consulate compound. He said there had been no warning that an attack was imminent.

“Wouldn’t you expect if there were protesters outside that the Americans would leave?” the guard said.

401 darthstar  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:47:22am

Arizona keeping it classy...

402 Obdicut  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:47:34am

re: #395 Killgore Trout

Also see my #384. It's a first person account by one of the Americans who was in the compound during the assault.

And ends with:

Whatever was said by senior administration officials in the immediate aftermath of the attack, a few things are clear now. There is no cover-up. There are lingering questions about security strategy. And there is one hell of an amazing tale of heroism and bravery on the part of the diplomatic security personnel and rapid reaction forces on the ground during the attack.

The ghoulishness of those trying desperately to smear Obama and the administration over this is really contemptible.

403 freetoken  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:48:05am

Speaking of Stalin, courtesy of RFE:

Genius Of An Anti-Soviet 'Dinosaur' Film Unearthed

Paleontology writer Brian Switek, author of "Written In Stone" and the Laelaps blog, recently stumbled upon a cleverly nuanced bit of animated Soviet propaganda that touches on his field of expertise. It impressed him enough to share in a post headlined "The Saddest Dinosaur Cartoon Ever."

The headline is a reference to a nearly 10-minute classic of Russian film, the 1967 short "Mountain of Dinosaurs" ("Gora Dinozavrov"), and its subversive genius.

[...]

It's a great little animated piece:

Youtube Video
404 lostlakehiker  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:49:44am

re: #392 Obdicut

Why do you not consider the idea that the attack was a reaction to the movie?

That's different. The point at issue is not whether the attackers had the movie as a motive, but whether the attack was in any way spontaneous, in any way associated with a demonstration.

But still, think about it. That sort of assault requires planning. The more, the better. This one seems to have been very well prepared. The furor over the movie (well, the trailer---there is some doubt over the existence of a movie to go with the trailer) came too soon before the attack to have allowed the kind of lead time implicit in the way it was executed. This strongly suggests that the attack had been decided upon earlier.

405 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:49:44am

re: #401 darthstar

Arizona keeping it classy...

[Embedded content]

Pennsylvania too...

406 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:49:50am

re: #391 lostlakehiker

One might have expected that there would have been demonstrations. But as it happens, in the runup to the attack itself, there were not.

If you are uncomfortable with flat facts, would you like a speculation? In Iraq, when a car bombing was imminent, the streets tended to be quiet. Somehow people knew that it was a good time to be elsewhere. This might explain the absence of demonstrations in front of the consulate at that time.

Yeah, flat facts really unnerve me. Then what is up with these pussy attackers that they felt a need to get the seeming target of their assault to a hospital for treatment rather then, lets say, chopping off his head as is their want?

407 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:53:20am

What wingnuts wanted Obama to say on day 1.

Today, America once again came under attack by Muslim-Islamic extremist Jihadist Arabic terrorists that hate are freedum!

In response we shall invade Iraq.

408 Varek Raith  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:53:51am

Wingers have been editing the wiki page on the consulate attack.
Why would they do that?
/

409 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:55:12am

re: #400 NJDhockeyfan

Here is a link from Wiki...

No protest before Benghazi attack, wounded Libyan guard says

So what? The fact that there was no protest simply does not refute the FACT that the attackers specifically said, on more than one occasion, that they attacked in retaliation for the video.

It's just weird how right wingers are jumping to unwarranted and false conclusions from unrelated data on this story.

410 DisturbedEma  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:56:35am

re: #397 erik_t

Amen. . .Stalin?? Really?? OMG

411 Obdicut  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:56:56am

re: #404 lostlakehiker

That's different. The point at issue is not whether the attackers had the movie as a motive, but whether the attack was in any way spontaneous, in any way associated with a demonstration.

Why is that in any way an important issue? I'm sorry, I really have no clue why you think this is important.

But still, think about it. That sort of assault requires planning.

What requires planning? Showing up in large numbers with weapons? What planning is required?

I'm sorry, but do you think that something happened that didn't? They came in with guns and they lit the place on fire. What on earth about that seems to require days of preparation to you?

412 kirkspencer  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:57:41am

I'd like to recommend a little light reading. On October 9, State held an in depth background briefing on what happened.

A lot of things I see tossed and/or rejected are cleared up.

At ~8:30 pm all was calm. At ~9:00 pm there was an attack. However, the attackers were something of a mob. The fires, for example, were the result of grabbing gas cans that were stored by the gate, dousing buildings (particularly the barracks) and setting them alight.

On the bit about why the attackers dragged Stevens to the hospital, they didn't. See, there was a lot of security response, and supplementing this was local response. The attackers were driven back, and it was the counter-attack/rescuers that took Stevens to the hospital.

Seriously, anyone wanting to argue either side should read the briefing. All the 'almost right' stuff I see kicked about is getting annoying.

413 Varek Raith  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:58:10am

Not much planning required to gather some guys with guns and attack a soft target.

414 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:59:07am

re: #389 lostlakehiker

No. It's true.

You are mistaken.

No, you are wrong. Period. These are your words:

But in reality, none of the people were there in reaction to the movie.

These are the facts:

To Libyans who witnessed the assault and know the attackers, there is little doubt what occurred: a well-known group of local Islamist militants struck the United States Mission without any warning or protest, and they did it in retaliation for the video. That is what the fighters said at the time, speaking emotionally of their anger at the video without mentioning Al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden or the terrorist strikes of 11 years earlier. And it is an explanation that tracks with their history as members of a local militant group determined to protect Libya from Western influence.

"It was the Ansar al-Shariah people," said Mohamed Bishari, 20, a neighbor of the compound who watched the assault and described the brigade he saw leading the attack. "There was no protest or anything of that sort."

United States intelligence agencies have reserved final judgment pending a full investigation, leaving open the possibility that anger at the video might have provided an opportunity for militants who already harbored anti-American feelings. But so far the intelligence assessments appear to square largely with local accounts. Whether the attackers are labeled "Al Qaeda cells" or "aligned with Al Qaeda," as Republicans have suggested, depends on whether that label can be used as a generic term for a broad spectrum of Islamist militants, encompassing groups like Ansar al-Shariah whose goals were primarily local, as well as those who aspire to join a broader jihad against the West.

But in the heated election-year American political debate such distinctions have been lost, scholars said, as the administration has framed the attack around the need for American outreach to the Arab world, while Republicans have focused on the perils of American weakness there.

And the result has produced accounts at great variance with what witnesses said they saw.

To those on the ground, the circumstances of the attack are hardly a mystery. Most of the attackers made no effort to hide their faces or identities, and during the assault some acknowledged to a Libyan journalist working for The New York Times that they belonged to the group. And their attack drew a crowd, some of whom cheered them on, some of whom just gawked, and some of whom later looted the compound.

The fighters said at the time that they were moved to act because of the video, which had first gained attention across the region after a protest in Egypt that day. The assailants approvingly recalled a 2006 assault by local Islamists that had destroyed an Italian diplomatic mission in Benghazi over a perceived insult to the prophet. In June the group staged a similar attack against the Tunisian Consulate over a different film, according to the Congressional testimony of the American security chief at the time, Eric A. Nordstrom.

At a news conference the day after the ambassador and three other Americans were killed, a spokesman for Ansar al-Shariah praised the attack as the proper response to such an insult to Islam. "We are saluting our people for this zeal in protecting their religion, to grant victory to the prophet," the spokesman said. "The response has to be firm."

415 Mocking Jay  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:59:27am
416 lostlakehiker  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:59:38am

re: #406 Eventual Carrion

Yeah, flat facts really unnerve me. Then what is up with these pussy attackers that they felt a need to get the seeming target of their assault to a hospital for treatment rather then, lets say, chopping off his head as is their want?

AFTER the compound was set on fire, a crowd gathered. Fires draw crowds. The attackers, their work done, moved on to the next target.

The people of Benghazi may have felt that in view of what we recently did for them, and in view of Ambassador Stevens' personal efforts in that work, they could set aside the fact that some nobody from Egypt put together an insulting video clip and did it inside the U.S.

It is an injustice to the people of Libya to tag them with ingratitude, riot, arson, and murder. True, the thing happened in Libya, but the assassins were not a crowd of ordinary Libyan civilians. Ordinary Libyan civilians, in fact, tried to lend a helping hand. It's not their fault that their efforts were in vain.

As to this business about smearing the Obama administration---look. If it's inconvenient for his administration, too bad. The truth is still the truth. This isn't about the upcoming election. After last night's debate, that ship has sailed.

417 erik_t  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:59:41am

Truly, though, it's bizarre. I have no earthly idea why we're arguing about this. It's as if a major mayoral election were considered to hinge on whether or not a single murder was first or second degree.

418 freetoken  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:00:13am

What last night was really about:

Ratings: NBC Wins Presidential Debate Coverage - and the Night

NBC was the only network to post gains over 2008 with its coverage of the presidential debate Tuesday night, taking an overall win for the evening thanks to the debate and "The Voice," according to preliminary numbers.

Though all of the networks' numbers are subject to revision due to the live debate coverage, NBC currently holds first place in the advertiser-coveted 18-49 demographic with a 4.7/12 rating and total viewers with 12.1 million. "The Voice" at 8 p.m. posted a slight increase over last week for a 4.6/13 and drew 12 million total viewers. The network's coverage of President Obama and Mitt Romney's second showdown the following hour surged 39 percent from the equivalent debate in 2008, jumping to a 5.0/12 -- making it the night's highest-rated program -- and just barely grabbed the night's most-watched status from "Dancing with the Stars" with 12.7 million total viewers. NBC's post-debate analysis at 10:30 drew a 4.0/10 and 10.6 million total viewers.

ABC drew second place in the demo and total viewers with a 2.5/6 and 11.5 million. The "Dancing With the Stars" results show at 8 took a modest hit compared to last week for a 2.1/6 and virtually tied NBC's presidential coverage with nearly 12.7 million total viewers, while the network's debate coverage dropped 28 percent from the second presidential debate in 2008, posting a 2.9/7 and grabbing 11.5 million total viewers. ABC's debate analysis grabbed a 2.4/6 and 9 million total viewers.

CBS took third place in ratings and total viewers with a 1.9/5 and 8.2 million total viewers. Following an "NCIS: LA" repeat at 8, the presidential debate drew a 2.3/5 -- down 15 percent from 2008 -- and grabbed 8.7 million total viewers. The network's debate analysis had a 1.9/5 and 7 million total viewers.

Fox came in fourth in ratings and total viewers with a 1.6/4 and 4 million. "Raising Hope" at 8 had a slight decline from last week for a 1.7/5 and drew 4.3 million total viewers, while the network's new comedy "Ben and Kate" at 8:30 dropped 20 percent to a 1.2/3 and had 2.9 million total viewers, The Fox news-produced coverage of the presidential debate slipped 19 percent from the 2008 equivalent, receiving a 1.7/4 and taking 4.3 million total viewers, while post-debate analysis drew a 1.5/4 and 3.8 million total viewers.

419 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:00:53am

Is it reasonable to suppose that among all the anti-video demonstrations in all the middle east there was no demonstration against the video in Benghazi? Really?

And why are we arguing about who used what word when anyway?

420 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:01:29am

re: #419 Someone Please Beam Me Up!

Is it reasonable to suppose that among all the anti-video demonstrations in all the middle east there was no demonstration against the video in Benghazi? Really?

And why are we arguing about who used what word when anyway?

Because we really need to understand the meaning of the word IS.

421 Varek Raith  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:02:26am

re: #419 Someone Please Beam Me Up!

Is it reasonable to suppose that among all the anti-video demonstrations in all the middle east there was no demonstration against the video in Benghazi? Really?

And why are we arguing about who used what word when anyway?

Because Republicans are desperate.

422 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:02:44am

[Comment deleted because it was a duplicate.]

423 Lidane  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:04:29am

So much for that binder full of women:

Mitt Romney Adviser On Lilly Ledbetter Act: 'He Was Opposed To It At The Time'

Had Mitt Romney been president in 2009, he would not have signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act into law, a top adviser to the Republican nominee told The Huffington Post Tuesday night.

Now that the law has been passed, Romney has no plans to get rid of it, that adviser, Ed Gillespie, added. But Romney didn't support it while it made its way through Congress.

"The governor would not repeal the Lilly Ledbetter Act," said Gillespie, following Tuesday night's presidential debate. "He was opposed to it at the time. He would not repeal it."

424 AK-47%  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:05:39am

re: #419 Someone Please Beam Me Up!

Is it reasonable to suppose that among all the anti-video demonstrations in all the middle east there was no demonstration against the video in Benghazi? Really?

And why are we arguing about who used what word when anyway?

Because we are dealing with obsessive jerks.

You didn't build that. And he didn't say it. End of discussion.

425 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:06:00am

Yes, we're really bogging down today, I know. It's because traffic is very high, and the speedy new database server is outrunning our outdated web server, causing latency because the web server can't keep up.

The new web server is being installed tonight at 6pm Pacific.

426 Varek Raith  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:06:28am

re: #425 Charles Johnson

Yes, we're really bogging down today, I know. It's because traffic is very high, and the speedy new database server is outrunning our outdated web server, causing latency because the web server can't keep up.

The new web server is being installed tonight at 6pm Pacific.

Sweet.

427 Lidane  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:07:06am
428 Velvet Elvis  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:07:51am

RCP: Michelle Obama Broke Rules and Clapped at Debate.

The horror!

429 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:08:20am

re: #413 Varek Raith

Not much planning required to gather some guys with guns and attack a soft target.

Makes you wonder why Bush allowed the Pentagon to be such a soft target.

430 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:09:09am

re: #395 Killgore Trout

Also see my #384. It's a first person account by one of the Americans who was in the compound during the assault.

Not a single word of that account backs up the claim that the attack had "nothing to do with the video."

Again.

431 efuseakay  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:09:28am

re: #400 NJDhockeyfan

Here is a link from Wiki...

No protest before Benghazi attack, wounded Libyan guard says

A Libyan guard. Nice source you got there.

432 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:09:55am

I would be happy to stay at work late (and I did for many years) but for some reason the stay-at-home retired old man I live with never learned how to cook anything but burgers and boiled hotdogs.

433 Lidane  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:12:50am

re: #428 Velvet Elvis

RCP: Michelle Obama Broke Rules and Clapped at Debate.

The horror!

Current wingnut excuses for Mitt's debate performance:

Fact checking has a liberal bias!

Candy Crowley is fat!

Michelle Obama clapped!

The questions came from liberal plants!

POTUS was an Angry Black Man!

Anything else? All their flailing is hilarious.

434 Velvet Elvis  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:13:38am

In case this hasn't been posted here yet:

[Link: bindersfullofwomen.tumblr.com...]

435 wrenchwench  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:13:49am

re: #417 erik_t

Truly, though, it's bizarre. I have no earthly idea why we're arguing about this. It's as if a major mayoral election were considered to hinge on whether or not a single murder was first or second degree.

Here's my idea of why it's so important to some people:

Obama has surprised many with a robust, reasonably successful foreign policy, and one of the hardest-working, most effective Secretaries of State since Henry Kissinger. Plus, Bin Laden is dead. Therefore, anything that can be used as ammo against this success to make it look like a Romney administration could possibly be as good is desperately needed. This is what desperation looks like.

436 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:15:15am

re: #435 wrenchwench

Here's my idea of why it's so important to some people:

Obama has surprised many with a robust, reasonably successful foreign policy, and one of the hardest-working, most effective Secretaries of State since Henry Kissinger. Plus, Bin Laden is dead. Therefore, anything that can be used as ammo against this success to make it look like a Romney administration could possibly be as good is desperately needed. This is what desperation looks like.

This.

437 kirkspencer  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:15:43am

re: #433 Lidane

Anything else? All their flailing is hilarious.

don't forget the rules that the candidates weren't supposed to directly ask each other questions.

which Mitt broke in the first few minutes.

438 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:16:35am

The right's crude semantic hair-splitting over Benghazi reminds us once again that the GOP is the party of fundamentalist literalism. To them, the attack ceases to be "anger over a movie" and becomes "terrorism" when we learn that the attackers were armed and more or less organized. Would this same distinction apply to the millions of visibly armed tea partiers who are so enraged at Obama's policies?

As for planning, if I had a company of US Army basic trainees, I could organize and execute an attack like this in 15 minutes.

439 Eventual Carrion  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:17:53am

re: #437 kirkspencer

don't forget the rules that the candidates weren't supposed to directly ask each other questions.

which Mitt broke in the first few minutes.

That was just because everyone was piling up on poor Mitt. Asking questions and wanting true answers and shit. Who can work under those conditions?

440 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:17:56am

re: #430 Charles Johnson

Not a single word of that account backs up the claim that the attack had "nothing to do with the video."

Again.

It makes no mention of the motivation for the attack but it's a fascinating read. It does dispel the rumor that there was a protest going on. The first indication of trouble was the attackers blasting open the front gate. No crowds gathering before hand, no chanting or anything associated with a protest.

441 freetoken  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:18:00am

This whole discussion the politi-verse is having is so very misled.

Eyewitness accounts are by nature sketchy, full of error.

And, more importantly in the case of POTUS and what the office means, intelligence from the field can take time to reach the oval office. And even then, determining how true said intelligence is takes more time.

This (outrage over whether the President immediately, correctly identified the nature of the killers of the ambassador) is a completely contrived affair, intended to absorb attention of a populace wanting to be entertained.

I wish the President last night would have stated the realities of the limits of the office of the POTUS. However, few holders of that office, or candidates running for it, will do so. This is because they are selling themselves as BIG DADDY to the masses, who are desperately looking for someone to make their insecurities go away.

Libya is an unstable country full of power hungry little wanna-bes who are just hoping to take over from their previous dictator. These are violent men and they know how to manipulate other violent men. Ambassadors and Foreign Service personnel daily face situations that are dangerous, that's why it's called a service to our country, and I consider all this political posturing over these deaths to be as obnoxious as doing it to coffins of soldiers coming back.

442 Gus  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:18:52am

re: #436 Charles Johnson

This.

Now I can't find the original comment. No biggie.

443 Velvet Elvis  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:20:26am

re: #440 Killgore Trout

It makes no mention of the motivation for the attack but it's a fascinating read. It does dispel the rumor that there was a protest going on. The first indication of trouble was the attackers blasting open the front gate. No crowds gathering before hand, no chanting or anything associated with a protest.

Someone on NPR last night pointed out that in a nation that well-armed and war-torn, an armed attack is likely seen as a reasonable form of protest, which makes sense. There is no reason that the attack shouldn't be looked at as a protest over the video.

444 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:21:08am

re: #431 efuseakay

A Libyan guard. Nice source you got there.

He was there that night. You have a problem with an eye witness who was attacked?

445 wrenchwench  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:22:40am

re: #442 Gus

Now I can't find the original comment. No biggie.

It looked like a duplicate here, so I deleted it, then it didn't exist at all, so I put it back.

This stuff is tricky.

446 The Mongoose  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:22:53am

In the world of polling, Gallup wandered quite a way off from the consensus today, showing a 6-point lead nationally for Governor Romney. Almost all other recent polls show a 1-point lead in either direction. Gallup looking like an outlier, especially with state polling showing that President Obama continues to hold leads (albeit razor-thin ones) in key swing states.

Current Mongoose Quasi-Scientific Projection (if vote were held today): Obama 281, Romney 257.

447 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:23:43am

re: #440 Killgore Trout

It makes no mention of the motivation for the attack but it's a fascinating read. It does dispel the rumor that there was a protest going on. The first indication of trouble was the attackers blasting open the front gate. No crowds gathering before hand, no chanting or anything associated with a protest.

And that's exactly what the New York Times report says. You're arguing against a point that people are not making.

448 lostlakehiker  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:30:24am

re: #411 Obdicut

Why is that in any way an important issue? I'm sorry, I really have no clue why you think this is important.

What requires planning? Showing up in large numbers with weapons? What planning is required?

I'm sorry, but do you think that something happened that didn't? They came in with guns and they lit the place on fire. What on earth about that seems to require days of preparation to you?

Why is that in any way an important issue? If you followed the thread, my first post on the topic simply asserted that there was no demonstration going on when the attack began. That is what we are arguing about.

Charles then said, "that is false".

I answered that he was mistaken, and so it went.

You use your usual tactic, which is to put up some assertion I didn't make, and wonder aloud to yourself why I would believe what I don't believe and didn't say.

An infantry assault on a consulate is likely to work better if it's planned. It worked all too well. This suggests that it was planned. Ideally, from the point of view of the attackers, the joint would be cased ahead of time, teams would be formed and would rehearse their moves, weapons would be assembled and tested, etc.

This was an assassination, not a riot.

449 efuseakay  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:34:54am

re: #448 lostlakehiker

Why is that in any way an important issue? If you followed the thread, my first post on the topic simply asserted that there was no demonstration going on when the attack began. That is what we are arguing about.

Charles then said, "that is false".

I answered that he was mistaken, and so it went.

You use your usual tactic, which is to put up some assertion I didn't make, and wonder aloud to yourself why I would believe what I don't believe and didn't say.

An infantry assault on a consulate is likely to work better if it's planned. It worked all too well. This suggests that it was planned. Ideally, from the point of view of the attackers, the joint would be cased ahead of time, teams would be formed and would rehearse their moves, weapons would be assembled and tested, etc.

This was an assassination, not a riot.

It was a terrorist attack, as the President said the day after (and several times after that).

The President and Secretary of State have taken responsibility for what happened, unlike Bush/Condi et al. Rest assured, we won't be invading an uninvolved country, sending thousands of young men and women to their deaths to find those who carried out this attack.

450 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 10:35:22am

re: #448 lostlakehiker

Your statement that "none of the people were there in reaction to the movie" is false.

451 Obdicut  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 2:50:09pm

re: #448 lostlakehiker

The logic of "The assault worked, therefore it must have been planned for days" doesn't really work. They were attacked by guys who had experience in fighting. I really don't think the concept of "go to this place, attack it, and set it on fire" is going to be one these guys need a lot of time to come to grips with.

You have absolutely nothing except bare assertion that it would take a long time to plan. Meanwhile, I have an ex-military person in the thread saying it'd be easy to teach minimally experienced military personnel to launch such an attack.

Why on earth should I believe your bare assertion, based on post hoc reasoning?


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