Overnight Reboot Thread
Open for business
LGF • Views: 26,457
The new web server is rockin’, and here’s an overnight open thread as I re-open the gates and let the world back in…
604 comments
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researchok Wed, Oct 17, 2012 11:43:28pm |
Well done. The cosmos are back in alignment as LGF returns to stable orbit.,
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MittDoesNotCompute Wed, Oct 17, 2012 11:43:33pm |
| 7 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Wed, Oct 17, 2012 11:44:38pm |
*taptaptap* Hello? Is this thing on?
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boredtechindenver Wed, Oct 17, 2012 11:45:34pm |
Charles, I tried checking my account settings and get the Chrome "Server Error" page.
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efuseakay Wed, Oct 17, 2012 11:47:27pm |
re: #8 boredtechindenver
Charles, I tried checking my account settings and get the Chrome "Server Error" page.
I just get a blank page on iOS 6/iPhone 5.
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engineer cat Wed, Oct 17, 2012 11:50:37pm |
// take my wife please
/*
block remark
*/
/**
* Eats, shoots, and leaves
*
* @return smartass remark
*/
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Charles Johnson Wed, Oct 17, 2012 11:52:03pm |
re: #8 boredtechindenver
Charles, I tried checking my account settings and get the Chrome "Server Error" page.
I know what's causing this, and will fix it soon.
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goddamnedfrank Wed, Oct 17, 2012 11:53:56pm |
I said last night that Romney would try to feign ignorance about his support for employer control over employee health coverage of contraception, and right on cue:
In the interview, reporter Jim Heath asked Romney about a measure he described as "Blunt-Rubio." Heath asked: "The issue of birth control, contraception, Blunt-Rubio is being debated, I believe, later this week. It deals with banning or allowing employers to ban providing female contraception. Have you taken a position on it? [Santorum] said he was for that, we'll talk about personhood in a second; but he's for that, have you taken a position?"
Romney said he was "not for that bill," and that he was not going to get into questions about whether people should use contraception.
"I'm not for the bill. But, look, the idea of presidential candidates getting into questions about contraception within a relationship between a man and a woman, husband and wife, I'm not going there," he said.
The Romney camp quickly said Romney is indeed for the bill and took issue with Heath's characterization of the measure in question. The Blunt Amendment would allow employers to deny their employees contraceptive care, as well as other services, if doing so conflicts with the employer's "religious beliefs or moral convictions." Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla. co-sponsored the measure.
...
He explained that he was confused by the question and thought the reporter was referencing legislation in Ohio, despite the fact that it was explicitly referred to as Blunt-Rubio.
"I didn't understand his question, of course I support the Blunt amendment," he said. "I thought he was talking about some state law that prevented people from getting contraception so I was simply -- misunderstood the question and of course I support the Blunt amendment."
Romney's contempt for the electorate is palpable. It's simply impossible to believe that he was confused either last night or on the radio today regarding the crux of the issue. His dissembling about "some state law" is just out and out horseshit, and a familiar tactic. He's trying to pretend that his hyper-literalist interpretation that the discussion was of a rule that doesn't exist anywhere is a reasonable thing for a candidate running for President who has repeatedly voiced his support for the Blunt Amendment and was certainly prepped to answer questions about this position. He wants people to believe his blatant lying could have just been the result of an honest misunderstanding when it was carefully calculated to leave the wrong impression with low information voters.
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AK-47% Wed, Oct 17, 2012 11:58:01pm |
This is what I mean about Romney just blowing soap bubbles and letting them reflect whatever his target audience wants to see in them.
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JamesWI Wed, Oct 17, 2012 11:59:20pm |
Story is about a month old, but relevant given that Tagg Romney is back in the news:
Local officials received an inquiry this spring from Integra Medical Properties, a Georgia-based company interested in building a residential hospice facility on the town land adjacent to the country club and in the woods deep behind Tagg Romney’s street. It was to be one-story, about 15,000 square feet, set far back from the neighborhood.
Belmont planners seized on it. The town needed the revenue, the site was well buffered, and residents, they thought, might appreciate the service.
Sure they would. Belmont Hill, it ends up, is like Hingham without the harbor. Residents immediately printed up lawn signs by the hundreds. They launched an antihospice website and Facebook page. They raised the specter of hearses and ambulances parading down their streets.
All of which is slightly amusing if you take a drive around Woodfall Road, which borders the site. The quaint and older ranches and split-levels are overshadowed by gargantuan new mansions crammed onto lots about three sizes too small. My personal favorite was a garish, 9,000-square-foot brick structure squeezed onto half an acre and seemingly abandoned before it was completed. Sitting in its scraggly yard is the sign, “Preserve our Neighborhood.”
At an August selectmen’s meeting, according to a video posted by the Belmont Citizen-Herald, Tagg Romney stood and told the board, “I certainly would not have built my house if I thought there was a possibility of a hospice going there. The value of all our homes will decrease dramatically.”
Tagg speaks, the selectmen act. They pretty much killed the proposal on the spot, saying they would restrict bids to those who planned to build only houses on the property.
This whole fucking family is despicable. Rotten and evil.
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Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Wed, Oct 17, 2012 11:59:29pm |
Small bug report.
Trying to upload an image just gets the spinning wheel next to "uploading" with no end, at least for me.
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Charles Johnson Thu, Oct 18, 2012 12:11:06am |
OK, uploading should work now, and also the Account Settings page.
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boredtechindenver Thu, Oct 18, 2012 12:13:27am |
re: #13 Charles Johnson
I know what's causing this, and will fix it soon.
It's all cool. And Thanks. This was actually one of of the smoothest hardware migrations I have seen, but then, most of the hardware migrations I have been involved with were multiple boxes with different software on Core network
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Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Thu, Oct 18, 2012 12:13:44am |
If you go out on a date with a conservative woman you might need to take some of these...
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Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Thu, Oct 18, 2012 12:14:07am |
Thank you Charles :D
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ozbloke Thu, Oct 18, 2012 12:14:54am |
Ahhh, I remember the days Charles use to use hamsters.
Nothing but honey badgers now.
And I hear Stinky is dressed like the Stig
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AK-47% Thu, Oct 18, 2012 12:28:14am |
My mother was a hamster
And my father reeked of elderberries
And I am still traumatized by the shame of it all...
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boredtechindenver Thu, Oct 18, 2012 12:28:56am |
So, I was thinking, how much would you pay to see the Presidential Candidates do a game-show style debate, (I prefer "You Don't Know Jack") where the host has the ability to cut their mics off if they don't answer the question.
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Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Thu, Oct 18, 2012 12:33:42am |
I swear girls can be so ungrateful sometimes. I made her breakfast in bed, and instead of saying "thank you", she is all like... "how did you get into my house?"
///
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JamesWI Thu, Oct 18, 2012 12:36:00am |
Just wrote up my first page in a while, answering my own question from earlier in the day (with help from CNN):Just how much money would Romney’s deduction cap bring in?
My math skills are not quite what they used to be, so if anyone sees any glaring errors in my simplistic analysis, let me know in the comments
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boredtechindenver Thu, Oct 18, 2012 12:36:51am |
re: #25 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You
I swear girls can be so ungrateful sometimes. I made her breakfast in bed, and instead of saying "thank you", she is all like... "how did you get into my house?"
///
That made me do a spit take. Too bad my mouth was full of < blank >. (Match Game style response)
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JamesWI Thu, Oct 18, 2012 12:40:20am |
re: #26 JamesWI
Just wrote up my first page in a while, answering my own question from earlier in the day (with help from CNN):Just how much money would Romney’s deduction cap bring in?
My math skills are not quite what they used to be, so if anyone sees any glaring errors in my simplistic analysis, let me know in the comments
(Long story short for those who don't want to read the page, even if Mitt cut ALL itemized deductions, it wouldn't even pay for half of his tax cut.)
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goddamnedfrank Thu, Oct 18, 2012 12:42:11am |
I hope Romney and every single one of these CEO's that thinks it's okay to try to coerce workers into voting the way they want finds themselves trapped in an elevator with an angry employee who's job and livelihood was threatened.
Though Romney says at the end of the call (the pertinent remarks are 26 minutes in) that he wants employers to pass on their political views, "whether you agree with me or you agree with President Obama," so far there have only been reports of pro-Romney mailings. Earlier this month the Koch brothers sent a voter information packet to 45,000 Georgia Pacific employees, including pro-Romney and anti-Obama editorials penned by the brothers themselves and a note that they "may suffer the consequences, including higher gasoline prices, runaway inflation, and other ills" if they vote for the wrong candidate. The CEO of Westgate Resorts — better known as the subject of the documentary The Queen of Versailles — told employees that if the president's tax plan is implemented, "I will have no choice but to reduce the size of this company." The CEO of ASG Software Solutions sent a similar e-mail to employees and said that if Obama is reelected, "I don't want to hear any complaints regarding the fallout that will most likely come."
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Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Thu, Oct 18, 2012 12:44:26am |
Really cool Halloween costumes this pair made, really out there...
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JamesWI Thu, Oct 18, 2012 12:44:41am |
re: #29 goddamnedfrank
I hope Romney and every single one of these CEO's that thinks it's okay to try to coerce workers into voting the way they want finds themselves trapped in an elevator with an angry employee who's job and livelihood was threatened.
Why do you think Romney likes having his own private elevator? /
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freetoken Thu, Oct 18, 2012 12:45:04am |
It appears as if Cox finally got the new addresses. Dodgy they are, sometimes.
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SteveMcG Thu, Oct 18, 2012 12:52:01am |
You know this nonsense about employers threatening their employees really bugs me on a different level than most of what I read. Most good businessmen and women are pragmatic. Laying off workers just because you got a tax increase just doesn't make sense on any level. If you can maintain the productivity with the reduced staff, you'll just pay even more taxes anyway. If reducing your staff hurts your business, you're just kicked yourself in the balls.
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AK-47% Thu, Oct 18, 2012 12:54:15am |
re: #33 SteveMcG
You know this nonsense about employers threatening their employees really bugs me on a different level than most of what I read. Most good businessmen and women are pragmatic. Laying off workers just because you got a tax increase just doesn't make sense on any level. If you can maintain the productivity with the reduced staff, you'll just pay even more taxes anyway. If reducing your staff hurts your business, you're just kicked yourself in the balls.
It's all about maintaining an ideological front.
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goddamnedfrank Thu, Oct 18, 2012 1:14:01am |
re: #33 SteveMcG
You know this nonsense about employers threatening their employees really bugs me on a different level than most of what I read. Most good businessmen and women are pragmatic. Laying off workers just because you got a tax increase just doesn't make sense on any level. If you can maintain the productivity with the reduced staff, you'll just pay even more taxes anyway. If reducing your staff hurts your business, you're just kicked yourself in the balls.
It's like Romney's 47% comment, the sin wasn't that he said it, it's that he got caught saying it. The 47% bullshit was floating around in conservative circles for a long time before the video went viral, the problem was that as candidate he couldn't be seen as so dismissive and contemptuous of half the country. Same with this advice to coerce employees, many dickhead conservative CEO and business owners would have done it anyway but now it's seen as an official campaign strategy.
Now instead of dwelling on being scared employees who've felt threatened can pin the blame on the candidate himself, and whatever fear they might have felt for their own livelihoods won't be quite as organic or natural feeling. Now they can say "that fuckfaced piece of shit actually told my boss to hold my job hostage."
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Amory Blaine Thu, Oct 18, 2012 3:35:44am |
Awesome. Heading into the election with a fresh new server. Honey Boo Boo a blessing in disguise?
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andres Thu, Oct 18, 2012 4:10:24am |
re: #14 goddamnedfrank
I said last night that Romney would try to feign ignorance about his support for employer control over employee health coverage of contraception, and right on cue:
Romney's contempt for the electorate is palpable. It's simply impossible to believe that he was confused either last night or on the radio today regarding the crux of the issue. His dissembling about "some state law" is just out and out horseshit, and a familiar tactic. He's trying to pretend that his hyper-literalist interpretation that the discussion was of a rule that doesn't exist anywhere is a reasonable thing for a candidate running for President who has repeatedly voiced his support for the Blunt Amendment and was certainly prepped to answer questions about this position. He wants people to believe his blatant lying could have just been the result of an honest misunderstanding when it was carefully calculated to leave the wrong impression with low information voters.
I don't think it's simply contempt for the electorate. Remember, this guy was the CEO of a company who specialized in predatory corporate raiding. In the closed environments where he can control all the variables, he'd be a giant. And this kind of sleazy two-face hypocrisy would not be spotted because he (and his team) can control the message.
So Romney's used to switching positions as he sees fit to get his goals. What's different in Politics is that he can't control all the variables and he's leaving a wide trail of comments that will be used against him.
re: #16 JamesWI
Story is about a month old, but relevant given that Tagg Romney is back in the news:
This whole fucking family is despicable. Rotten and evil.
Despicable indeed. But I don't find it surprising.
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Tigger2 Thu, Oct 18, 2012 4:15:29am |
Like the new speed, got tired of watching the little circle spinning. lol
Good job Charles.
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AK-47% Thu, Oct 18, 2012 4:16:27am |
re: #42 andres
I don't think it's simply contempt for the electorate. Remember, this guy was the CEO...
And as CEO, he is used to getting his ass kissed and not being forced to hear dissenting opinions or to make convincing arguments, simply to say what he plans to do at the time, which is subject to change as he sees fit. Something that a President cannot get away with.
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Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 4:37:06am |
Does this mean we have to think and type faster?
'Morning, all
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Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:03:53am |
DARVO at its best:
Carol Costello demo'd why gay lobby must be stopped: no room in their world for diversity, other points of view whatsoever.— Bryan Fischer (@BryanJFischer) October 18, 2012
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Stephen T. Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:19:54am |
re: #33 SteveMcG
You know this nonsense about employers threatening their employees really bugs me on a different level than most of what I read. Most good businessmen and women are pragmatic. Laying off workers just because you got a tax increase just doesn't make sense on any level. If you can maintain the productivity with the reduced staff, you'll just pay even more taxes anyway. If reducing your staff hurts your business, you're just kicked yourself in the balls.
Ah, but if you have a large enough corporation with scared enough employees you may just sway enough votes to get the guy you want in office.
Or not.
I'm hoping that there is followup news on the companies that threatened to fire their employees if Obama wins, you know, to see if anyone actually gets fired?
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Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:22:01am |
Charles Schwab hearts Obama.
[Link: www.tampabay.com...]
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Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:31:14am |
re: #50 Cannadian Club Akbar
Charles Schwab
heartsObama.
[Link: www.tampabay.com...]
It's come to this, that a billionaire's grandchildren don't have a chance at a future. Glad my daughter's autistic kid is just the spawn of a thug teacher.
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Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:32:41am |
Hmm. I was gonna post something from Politifact, without comment, but I'll just end up in the "bottom comments". Maybe I should post someone else's tweets so I can be in the Top 10.
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sagehen Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:33:21am |
re: #50 Cannadian Club Akbar
Charles Schwab
heartsObama.
[Link: www.tampabay.com...]
In talking about struggling investors, Schwab did not mention how the stock market has rebounded strongly from its recessionary lows. The Dow Jones Industrial Average, for instance, has more than doubled from hovering near 6,500 just after Obama took office in early 2009 to pass the 13,500 mark.
Somebody's committing an act of journalism, must put a stop to that...
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A Mom Anon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:38:40am |
re: #52 Decatur Deb
These people are freaks. They've got more money than they or their heirs could spend in a lifetime of living comfortably and they're whining about a small tax increase,that they were paying when Clinton was president,along with some really soft banking and financial regulations.The rich have had tougher rules than Dodd/Frank to contend with,part of the problem is the new rules need to be tougher. I notice alot of those whiners also managed to get wealthier during the Clinton years,so I'm really having trouble finding that orchestra of tiny violins I'd break out in sympathy for such occasions.
I do not understand the mindset of these great geniuses of success. Without a middle class to spend money their businesses suffer too. It makes no sense.
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Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:40:05am |
re: #54 sagehen
Somebody's committing an act of journalism, must put a stop to that...
The TBT has an incredible sports page. And oddly enough, they are the ones who run Politifact, which apparently (and I've said this before) is one of those entities that people agree with when it fits their opinion. Other than that they are rat bastards.
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Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:41:36am |
A wingnut was trying to 'splain to me that Wal-Mart workers are paid so little because "you can always find people to work for that amount" and the reason the Wal-Mart and other top execs are paid to much is because "they have a specialized skill set which is highly in demand, and if they do not get the compensation they want they will go somewhere else."
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Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:42:29am |
re: #57 Sheila Broflovski
A wingnut was trying to 'splain to me that Wal-Mart workers are paid so little because "you can always find people to work for that amount" and the reason the Wal-Mart and other top execs are paid to much is because "they have a specialized skill set which is highly in demand, and if they do not get the compensation they want they will go somewhere else."
It's hard to find talent like the management of AIG.
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AK-47% Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:44:09am |
re: #57 Sheila Broflovski
A wingnut was trying to 'splain to me that Wal-Mart workers are paid so little because "you can always find people to work for that amount" and the reason the Wal-Mart and other top execs are paid to much is because "they have a specialized skill set which is highly in demand, and if they do not get the compensation they want they will go somewhere else."
And if their prices went up, people would stop shopping there.
And if their wages went up, employees would no longer be eligible for food stamps.
And if they had health benfits, the state would not have to subsidize the cost of employees' (emergency room) health care.
All sound arguments, eh?
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Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:44:40am |
How about this experiment:
Let's take some random underpaid Wal-Mart regional store manager and make him or her "Wal-Mart CEO for a Day" and see what they do to improve quality.
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iossarian Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:45:09am |
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Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:45:56am |
re: #58 Decatur Deb
It's hard to find talent like the management of AIG.
CEO pay is not based on performance, a CEO can totally fuck up and still get a golden parachute (Citigroup). Who are the asshats on the committees that determine CEO compensation?
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Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:46:49am |
re: #62 Sheila Broflovski
CEO pay is not based on performance, a CEO can totally fuck up and still get a golden parachute (Citigroup). Who are the asshats on the committees that determine CEO compensation?
ex-CEOs.
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Interesting Times Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:50:52am |
Walmart heirs would have never seen a dime of their present fortune if it hadn't been for poor people buying their crap.
They didn't build that; members of the 47% built that.
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Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:51:41am |
re: #53 Cannadian Club Akbar
Hmm. I was gonna post something from Politifact, without comment, but I'll just end up in the "bottom comments". Maybe I should post someone else's tweets so I can be in the Top 10.
Post it. I'll upding and support you.
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iossarian Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:52:52am |
| 67 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:53:14am |
re: #64 Interesting Times
Walmart heirs would have never seen a dime of their present fortune if it hadn't been for poor people buying their crap.
They didn't build that; members of the 47% built that.
I'd say that Sam Walton 'built that', his heirs just inherited it.
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A Mom Anon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:53:57am |
re: #63 Decatur Deb
I know this makes me into a filthy commie,but when I see multi-millionaires and billionaires whining about money I really begin thinking a cap on the amount of personal wealth someone can acquire looks like a wonderful idea.
Or maybe just give the fuckers tax incentives to invest in workers and facilities in THIS country. Don't want to pay taxes on that huge ass amount of cash you got for being so"talented" this year? INVEST IN THE WORKERS WHO MADE YOUR COMPANY SUCCESSFUL. Put that money back into your company instead of rolling around in a pile of it every evening when you get home. Then you won't have such an "outrageous"amount of taxes to pay,you'll attract loyal workers and keep them,and your company will grow and have a good reputation. Yeah,that sounds just awful.
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Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:54:28am |
re: #65 Dark_Falcon
Post it. I'll upding and support you.
(CCA starts typing a diatribe about Del Mabry strip joints.)
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Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:55:22am |
re: #69 Decatur Deb
(CCA starts typing a diatribe about Del Mabry strip joints.)
You shut up!! Where else can you get free popcorn!!!
/
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iossarian Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:55:54am |
re: #68 A Mom Anon
I know this makes me into a filthy commie,
In every other industrialized nation, this is a middle-of-the-road position.
So yes, in the USA, "filthy commie".
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Interesting Times Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:57:18am |
re: #67 Dark_Falcon
I'd say that Sam Walton 'built that', his heirs just inherited it.
Again, Sam Walton would be on the bottom end of buttsquat nowhere if it hadn't been for his customers. No customers, no business.
Who are the real "job creators?"
| 73 |
iossarian Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:57:51am |
re: #67 Dark_Falcon
I'd say that Sam Walton 'built that', his heirs just inherited it.
Wikipedia says:
With the help of a $20,000 loan from his father-in-law, plus $5,000 he had saved from his time in the Army [...]
Wealthy relatives and a government job.
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Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:57:54am |
re: #68 A Mom Anon
I know this makes me into a filthy commie,but when I see multi-millionaires and billionaires whining about money I really begin thinking a cap on the amount of personal wealth someone can acquire looks like a wonderful idea.
Or maybe just give the fuckers tax incentives to invest in workers and facilities in THIS country. Don't want to pay taxes on that huge ass amount of cash you got for being so"talented" this year? INVEST IN THE WORKERS WHO MADE YOUR COMPANY SUCCESSFUL. Put that money back into your company instead of rolling around in a pile of it every evening when you get home. Then you won't have such an "outrageous"amount of taxes to pay,you'll attract loyal workers and keep them,and your company will grow and have a good reputation. Yeah,that sounds just awful.
A citizen is expected to send her sons and daughters to Iraq. A CEO is expected to send your job to the lowest-bidder third-world hellhole. That's because they are patriots of the Republic of Wealth.
| 75 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:58:05am |
Every WalMart store costs the taxpayers $500,000/year from the food stamps and other government assistance the employees receive.
Wingnut insisted that Walmart was STILL SAVING THE GOVERNMENT because if the employees didn't work there for poverty wages, they will sit around at home all unemployed and shit and TAKE EVEN MORE FROM THE GOVERNMENT.
Wingnut then called me a "socialist liberal union-supporter"
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Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:58:21am |
re: #68 A Mom Anon
Not a Commie, but it is a Socialist idea, and one I oppose utterly.
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iossarian Thu, Oct 18, 2012 5:59:38am |
re: #76 Dark_Falcon
Not a Commie, but it is a Socialist idea, and one I oppose utterly.
Of course.
Any comments on how Sam Walton's privileged background and government employment enabled him to kickstart his enterprise?
| 78 |
Interesting Times Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:00:45am |
re: #76 Dark_Falcon
Not a Commie, but it is Socialist idea, and one I oppose utterly.
Because "socialism" in the form of subsidizing Walmart's lousy payroll with food stamps is so much better 9_9
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Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:00:52am |
re: #72 Interesting Times
Again, Sam Walton would be on the bottom end of buttsquat nowhere if it hadn't been for his customers. No customers, no business.
Who are the real "job creators?"
The people who create the business and its model are the job creators. Without them, there would not be a business for the public to patronize.
| 80 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:02:16am |
re: #78 Interesting Times
Because "socialism" in the form of subsidizing Walmart's lousy payroll with food stamps is so much better 9_9
Those two things are not linked to each other.
| 81 |
Interesting Times Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:02:46am |
re: #79 Dark_Falcon
The people who create the business and its model are the job creators. Without them, there would not be a business for the public to patronize.
Tell me, please, how a business gets to be successful without people to buy its products. Even if those customers are paid by (gasp!) "not real" government jobs.
| 82 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:04:35am |
re: #81 Interesting Times
Tell me, please, how a business gets to be successful without people to buy its products. Even if those customers are paid by (gasp!) "not real" government jobs.
A business needs customers, but Walmart's customers did not create its business model not manage its money. Sam Walton did that.
| 83 |
AK-47% Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:04:53am |
How much of Wal-Mart's turnover comes from a) food stamps and b) people who work for the government or receive government benefits? Probably 47% or more in most areas....
| 84 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:06:22am |
re: #82 Dark_Falcon
A business needs customers, but Walmart's customers did not create its business model not manage its money. Sam Walton did that.
Sam Walton liked to promote USA-made products.
| 85 |
iossarian Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:07:47am |
re: #84 Sheila Broflovski
Sam Walton liked to promote USA-made products.
Walton himself may not have been all that bad a guy. Child of the depression and all that. Encyclopedia entry:
Walton kept prices and salaries low but nevertheless inspired company loyalty in employees, who retired with comfortable pensions as a result of his profit-sharing plan.
Probably the kind of mid-century businessman who would be horrified at the nature of today's GOP.
| 86 |
A Mom Anon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:07:47am |
re: #72 Interesting Times
I don't think Sam Walton was as spoiled and ruthless as his heirs either,but yep,with no customers you have no business. No business mogul is an angel,but I wonder what he'd think about what his company has turned into.
Besides how they treat their employees and how they use the government's programs to get out of paying decent wages,I really despise what a WalMart does to local businesses when they move into a town. I know of a small town in Ohio where the Main Street is now empty. The only employer left is WalMart and a couple of fast food restaurants. There are no OB/GYN doctors,no Pediatricians,no specialists of any kind. Before WalMart there was a depressed economy,but the Main Street stores and businesses were plugging along and you didn't have to drive 70 miles to find a decent doctor. All that has changed,and WalMart started that change.
Here's the REALLY shitty part of this story though. This WalMart understaffs it's store on purpose. There are NO full time employees except for a manager and an assistant manager. They have a ridiculously low amount in their budget for payroll that they are simply not allowed to increase even during the holiday season. There's a waiting list to work there because there's literally nothing else less than an hour away. People think when WalMart comes to town that it means more jobs and more prosperity,it doesn't. I know someone who works at this store. She has for 6 yrs. Her last yearly raise was a nickel. She now makes 8.85 an hour.
| 87 |
iossarian Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:09:23am |
re: #86 A Mom Anon
I know someone who works at this store. She has for 6 yrs. Her last yearly raise was a nickel. She now makes 8.85 an hour.
Those of us currently looking for work and extolling the "job creator" paradigm, take note.
| 88 |
AK-47% Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:10:17am |
When Mitt Romney takes office, his rising yacht will lift all rowboats, except those with holes in them because the owners cannot afford to patch them!
| 89 |
Interesting Times Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:11:06am |
re: #82 Dark_Falcon
A business needs customers, but Walmart's customers did not create its business model not manage its money.
If it weren't for customers, there would be no money to manage. An entirely successful business can go bust when its customers vanish (perhaps because they themselves lost their jobs and no longer afford the products).
Consumer demand drives the real US economy. Not hedge funds, vaporware "financial projects", or ultra-rich douchebags blowing their money on private amusements for their fellow 1%-ers.
| 91 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:11:57am |
| 92 |
Interesting Times Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:12:21am |
At least Mitt doesn't bind women to the roof of his car.#bindersfullofwomen— Nick_Anderson_ (@Nick_Anderson_) October 17, 2012
| 93 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:13:38am |
re: #84 Sheila Broflovski
Sam Walton liked to promote USA-made products.
Yes, he did. And his heirs decision to stop doing that was a folly, in my opinion.
| 94 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:13:46am |
Henry Ford was an asshole in many ways, but he did introduce the idea of paying workers enough to be able to purchase the product.
| 95 |
iossarian Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:14:29am |
re: #91 Decatur Deb
re: #87 iossarian
Two of the kids spent some time doing scut work at Walmart. They thought the jobs were OK for student work, but said the Manager and Assistant got a much worse deal from corporate.
Sam Walton would have known a lot of store managers personally. Hard to make someone's job shitty if you know the guy and his kids.
Easier if you live in the C-suite and can wash your guilt away at the fantasy ranch every weekend.
| 96 |
lawhawk Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:14:45am |
Holy Schnikes is LGF running fast. No latency on updating comments or anything. It's a site to behold. Excellent work! (and with that I hit the tip jar).
/now let's see Destro Honey Boo Boo the server to death again. /
| 97 |
kirkspencer Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:15:16am |
re: #64 Interesting Times
Walmart heirs would have never seen a dime of their present fortune if it hadn't been for poor people buying their crap.
They didn't build that; members of the 47% built that.
Even if you ignore the customer, they didn't build that. It was a gift from their dad.
(edited: and I see Dark beat me to that point.)
| 98 |
Only The Lurker Knows Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:15:37am |
Morning Lizards. The new server is great. Not only do the pages load faster, but the video streams much quicker as well. Charles I do have a bug to report. The spell checker isn't working. It is returning this error.
Error: No word list can be found for the language "en_US"
| 99 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:15:44am |
re: #79 Dark_Falcon
The people who create the business and its model are the job creators. Without them, there would not be a business for the public to patronize.
Great. So Sam Walton is the job creator. His heirs contribute nothing.
You've actually inadvertently made a powerful argument for a very high estate tax here.
| 100 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:16:19am |
If workers are forced to apply for food stamps and medicaid because the "job creator" is too stingy to provide health insurance and a living wage, the top stockholders/executives of that corporation should be taxed for the amount of government aid that is provided to their employees.
I am such a freaking socialist.
| 101 |
Lidane Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:17:07am |
After 80 years in print, Newsweek will go all-digital. The last print edition in the U.S. will be our Dec. 31 issue nswk.ly/RWjpME— Newsweek (@Newsweek) October 18, 2012
| 102 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:17:56am |
re: #98 Only The Lurker Knows
And in that error code you can see the word Kapakahi, good Hawaiian for "messed up". I think.
| 103 |
AK-47% Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:17:58am |
re: #100 Sheila Broflovski
If workers are forced to apply for food stamps and medicaid because the "job creator" is too stingy to provide health insurance and a living wage, the top stockholders/executives of that corporation should be taxed for the amount of government aid that is provided to their employees.
I am such a freaking socialist.
Why do you hate success?
/
| 104 |
iossarian Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:19:09am |
re: #99 Obdicut
Great. So Sam Walton is the job creator. His heirs contribute nothing.
You've actually inadvertently made a powerful argument for a very high estate tax here.
He also made the argument for generous social investment in potential job creators earlier in the thread.
It's "inadvertent progressive policy support Thursday" for DF it seems.
| 105 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:19:54am |
re: #88 AK-47%
When Mitt Romney takes office, his rising yacht will lift all rowboats, except those with holes in them because the owners cannot afford to patch them!
No rowboats in Chicagoland. Canoes though, and kayaks. Heck, people can even kayak on the Chicago River again thanks to a major improvement in water quality. To forestall pointed questions, the Chicago Metropolitan Water Reclamation District 'built that' increase in water quality, by building the Depp Tunnel system for holding excess rainwater and sewage. That agency's commissioner posts are one of very few elected posts where I am willing to vote for a Democrat, though I prefer to vote for a Republican when the GOP also has a good candidate.
| 106 |
iossarian Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:20:50am |
re: #105 Dark_Falcon
So, basically, you're in favor of public projects when they benefit you?
| 107 |
BongCrodny Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:21:03am |
re: #99 Obdicut
Great. So Sam Walton is the job creator. His heirs contribute nothing.
You've actually inadvertently made a powerful argument for a very high estate tax here.
When I saw that photo of Donald Trump's useless offspring on their hunting trip, I thought "there's a couple guys that should be working the drive-through window at McDonald's."
| 108 |
Interesting Times Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:24:07am |
Lulz:
Look who's got more than #Romney #BindersFullOfWomen twitter.com/Frances_Fisher...— Frances Fisher (@Frances_Fisher) October 18, 2012
| 109 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:24:44am |
re: #101 Lidane
[Embedded content]
Found this vid at the link. Don't rag on the Congressman his guns too much. He makes the point that the revolver he shows was used to prevent a lynching, which at least makes the case that he comes from a family that were not racist assholes.
| 110 |
Mocking Jay Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:25:41am |
| 111 |
makeitstop Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:25:55am |
Tagg Romney sounds like a wimpy rich kid writing checks his ass can't cash.
In other news, while the server was down yesterday, I did some wheeling and dealing and picked up an Epiphone Firebird guitar (a beater, but plays and sounds great) and a 70s-vintage Fender Twin Reverb amplifier. I love getting new gear, even if it's not exactly new.
I hope you Lizards are enjoying your morning so far. And congrats on the zoom-y new server, Charles. Working great over here.
| 112 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:26:23am |
re: #107 BongCrodny
When I saw that photo of Donald Trump's useless offspring on their hunting trip, I thought "there's a couple guys that should be working the drive-through window at McDonald's."
I honestly feel bad for the kids of the super-rich. They have no chance at an ordinary life. I've known a few children of very wealthy parents, and only one of them was actually happy and fulfilled. The others had no real sense of self-worth.
A friend of mine just made quite a lot of money with his little company. He is now talking at length with his wife, his parents, his friends about how he can best not wind up fucking over his kids by making things too easy for them.
| 113 |
AK-47% Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:26:28am |
re: #109 Dark_Falcon
Found this vid at the link. Don't rag on the Congressman his guns too much. He makes the point that the revolver he shows was used to prevent a lynching, which at least makes the case that he comes from a family that were not racist assholes.
Nobody is tryin' to take his guns away. Shut the f*ck up Congressman.
| 114 |
Lidane Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:26:29am |
Tucker Carlson: Candy Crowley is a modern-day John Wilkes Booth. mediamatters.org/video/2012/10/...— Jesse Taylor (@jesseltaylor) October 18, 2012
| 115 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:26:32am |
re: #106 iossarian
So, basically, you're in favor of public projects when they benefit you?
I'm not against public projects, when they are properly planned and budgeted for. What I'm against is fraud, waste, and graft, as well as projects that aren't properly budgeted and have poor oversight.
| 116 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:27:41am |
| 117 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:27:46am |
re: #107 BongCrodny
When I saw that photo of Donald Trump's useless offspring on their hunting trip, I thought "there's a couple guys that should be working the drive-through window at McDonald's."
Do you happen to feel the same way about Trump's eldest daughter?
| 118 |
Lidane Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:27:48am |
re: #115 Dark_Falcon
What I'm against is fraud, waste, and graft, as well as projects that aren't properly budgeted and have poor oversight.
In other words, you're against a lot of these bloated defense contracts that even the Pentagon says they don't need and don't want?
| 119 |
iossarian Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:27:49am |
re: #115 Dark_Falcon
I'm not against public projects, when they are properly planned and budgeted for. What I'm against is fraud, waste, and graft, as well as projects that aren't properly budgeted and have poor oversight.
Man, you must love the defense industry.
| 120 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:28:55am |
Good Morning. Fast & fancy new server works great!
Well that takes care of the undecideds. Honey Boo Boo has endorsed our President for re election.
No need for another debate.///
| 121 |
Mocking Jay Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:30:39am |
re: #120 Daniel Ballard
Good Morning. Fast & fancy new server works great!
Well that takes care of the undecideds. Honey Boo Boo has endorsed our President for re election.
No need for another debate.///
Obama makes her holla!
| 122 |
sagehen Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:31:22am |
re: #62 Sheila Broflovski
CEO pay is not based on performance, a CEO can totally fuck up and still get a golden parachute (Citigroup). Who are the asshats on the committees that determine CEO compensation?
Part of Dodd-Frank is a provision that stockholders can vote on executive compensation -- the guy from Citi may not get his $260 million going-away present after stock went down 70% during his tenure.
| 123 |
Interesting Times Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:31:22am |
re: #120 Daniel Ballard
Good Morning. Fast & fancy new server works great!
Well that takes care of the undecideds. Honey Boo Boo has endorsed our President for re election.
She instinctively realizes GOP climate policy will leave her generation hosed?
| 124 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:31:29am |
re: #116 Sheila Broflovski
WTF??
I don't understand it either. She didn't shoot anyone in the head or stab another man while fleeing. I'd going to put Carlson's remarks down to brain damage due to oxygen deprivation brought on by years of overly tight bow ties.
/kidding, but it's the only explanation I can come up with.
| 125 |
iossarian Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:31:35am |
re: #115 Dark_Falcon
I'm not against public projects, when they are properly planned and budgeted for. What I'm against is fraud, waste, and graft, as well as projects that aren't properly budgeted and have poor oversight.
In my (public) higher education job, I don't have business cards, because we cut them out of the budget. I could of course buy some myself but I find it more effective to use this as a laugh line when I'm meeting people at conferences (to which I go infrequently because of budget restrictions).
The idea that public sector work is wasteful is just another case of massive projection by right wingers who are happy to fling money at super-duper bombers that are obsolete before they are ever used.
| 126 |
Lidane Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:32:23am |
Despite court order, Ohio's GOP Election Chief is STILL cutting back early voting thkpr.gs/RJ328O #votersuppression— ThinkProgress (@thinkprogress) October 18, 2012
| 127 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:32:30am |
re: #124 Dark_Falcon
I don't understand it either. She didn't shoot anyone in the head or stab another man while fleeing. I'd going to put Carlson's remarks down to brain damage due to oxygen deprivation brought on by years of overly tight bow ties.
/kidding, but it's the only explanation I can come up with.
Does she do summer-stock Shakespeare?
| 128 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:32:39am |
re: #120 Daniel Ballard
Good Morning. Fast & fancy new server works great!
Well that takes care of the undecideds. Honey Boo Boo has endorsed our President for re election.
No need for another debate.///
Honey Boo Boo? She's gonna end up fat.
[Link: www.usmagazine.com...]
| 129 |
lawhawk Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:35:11am |
re: #119 iossarian
Seventeen years, and fourteen billion dollars of the taxpayers' money, to design and build one armored vehicle (that would be the Bradley IVF btw).
Major General Partridge: But even a heat-seeking missile can miss a target.
Madame Chairwoman: General, it says here that you taped electric hotplates to the surface of the vehicle to help your heat-seeking missile find its target, and that the surface temperature of the vehicle was so high it could have fried an egg at twenty feet!
/via the movie the Pentagon Wars - underrated for its satire/comedic value of the military industrial complex and the acquisitions process. Great flick for Cary Elwes and Kelsey Grammer.
| 130 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:35:48am |
re: #125 iossarian
I said 'projects' not 'work'. A project is not necessarily wasteful based on who funds it: The MRAP program was an example of a effective and fast government program, while closer to home I could tell you the story of the Davis Street Fish Market / Pete Miller's Steakhouse joint venture in Schaumburg, Illinois that closed in less than 3 months.
| 131 |
A Mom Anon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:37:47am |
re: #87 iossarian
I should also add that this is a mom with 2 little kids at home. Her husband has PTSD from two tours in Iraq and is unable to be a decent dad right now. She's having to figure out how to afford a babysitter at the moment. If she put the kids in daycare she would be paying more money than she makes for that. So the kids are being bounced around from relative to relative,friend to friend. Imagine not having a steady and reliable source of childcare while trying like hell to stay off welfare. She's getting food stamps and some sort of weird Ohio substitute for Medicaid run by private insurance. She works all the hours they'll let her. She is also NOT allowed to take any time off for any reason til after inventory is done in January because of the holidays and yearly inventory. She's even been asked to work off the clock before and is scared to say no. She wants to go to school and make a better life for her kids but doesn't see how that's going to happen.
So rich fuckers who whine about money and taxes can blow me. Fuck them. Job Creators my ass.
| 132 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:40:00am |
re: #130 Dark_Falcon
I said 'projects' not 'work'. A project is not necessarily wasteful based on who funds it: The MRAP program was an example of a effective and fast government program, while closer to home I could tell you the story of the Davis Street Fish Market / Pete Miller's Steakhouse joint venture in Schaumburg, Illinois that closed in less than 3 months.
MRAP and the up-armored HMMWVs both showed that our expenditures didn't prepare us for "going to war with the Army you have." Humvees were never meant to be light armor and MRAPs were developed as a small-fleet special purpose mine clearer in the TO&Es.
| 133 |
iossarian Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:40:10am |
re: #130 Dark_Falcon
I said 'projects' not 'work'. A project is not necessarily wasteful based on who funds it: The MRAP program was an example of a effective and fast government program, while closer to home I could tell you the story of the Davis Street Fish Market / Pete Miller's Steakhouse joint venture in Schaumburg, Illinois that closed in less than 3 months.
OK, so you're against unsuccessful projects. That's a fairly unremarkable position, I don't think there are many people in favor of those.
| 134 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:42:46am |
re: #133 iossarian
OK, so you're against unsuccessful projects. That's a fairly unremarkable position, I don't think there are many people in favor of those.
You never met the project managers for the SGT York.
| 135 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:42:52am |
re: #126 Lidane
And that's the second time he's defied the courts on this. He's committing a crime.
| 136 |
A Mom Anon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:46:04am |
re: #135 Obdicut
He needs to be frogmarched like NOW. Seriously,if this was a Democrat doing this all manner of hell would be raised.
| 137 |
Lidane Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:46:08am |
Very true:
I am starting to think men who don't understand birth control as an economic issue are guys who have never been awesome sex partners.— Lizz Winstead (@lizzwinstead) October 18, 2012
| 138 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:47:33am |
re: #125 iossarian
A lack of money for teachers is no assurance of efficient spending for everything else.
Like LAUSD spending 200 million plus for high schools with high end fancy architecture, one of which never opened.
| 139 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:49:00am |
I hope they will be able to play ALcS #4 this afternoon. Last night's game was rained out. The sports pundits are saying that the Yankees will suffer more from the game delay. Heh.
| 140 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:49:34am |
re: #134 Decatur Deb
You never met the project managers for the SGT York.
One thing the Bradley's designers got right: Using a standard linked duel-feed system for its 25mm cannon. It meant using a socket wrench to switch between ammo feeds, but it is reliable, which the linkless feed for the Sgt. York most certainly was not.
| 141 |
kirkspencer Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:49:39am |
re: #134 Decatur Deb
You never met the project managers for the SGT York.
heh. I have a couple of friends who were part of that. They both expressed pretty much the same claim: the original concept would have worked. But between the army and congress adding this, that, and the other, "Ooo, and it's gotta do /this/**" it failed.
**Not just the additional function elements but the requirements to use this product or that mechanism just because it was really effective on something else or made in /that/ district.
| 142 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:50:38am |
DERP
RT @shortrosen: Remember, Romney's 'binder' comment refers to giving women JOBS while Obama's priority is giving women free CONTRACEPTIVES.— Bethany S. Mandel (@bethanyshondark) October 18, 2012
| 143 |
BongCrodny Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:51:40am |
re: #117 Dark_Falcon
Do you happen to feel the same way about Trump's eldest daughter?
She's under the radar for me.
From ABC News:
Trump Jr. may be a hunter, but TMZ.com reports the independent Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force says the South African safari company the sons used was not registered in Zimbabwe.
The task force says Trump Jr. and his brother killed an elephant, a buffalo and a crocodile, among other animals. In one of the leaked pictures, Trump Jr., is seen holding a knife and the cut-off tail of an elephant.
I'll stand by my "useless offspring" comment when it comes to Trump's sons.
| 144 |
Only The Lurker Knows Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:51:41am |
New jobless numbers are out.
NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- First-time claims for unemployment benefits are on a roller coaster. The number snapped back up last week, after falling to a four-year low the week before.
See! This proves Obama cooked the numbers last week
| 145 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:52:22am |
re: #141 kirkspencer
heh. I have a couple of friends who were part of that. They both expressed pretty much the same claim: the original concept would have worked. But between the army and congress adding this, that, and the other, "Ooo, and it's gotta do /this/**" it failed.
**Not just the additional function elements but the requirements to use this product or that mechanism just because it was really effective on something else or made in /that/ district.
It would have tested better if the Earth were flat.
| 146 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:54:37am |
I have an earworm and need to give it to everyone here:
Mr. Dobalina.
Mr. Bob Dobalina.
That's Mr. Dobalina. Mr. Bob Dobalina.
| 147 |
lawhawk Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:55:14am |
re: #122 sagehen
That's not exactly accurate.
The $260 million was the total cumulative compensation that Pandit received, including the package he received when Citi bought out his hedge fund. His salary for 2011 was ~$15 million, and shareholders opposed that, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will rescind or cut that pay.
Some reports indicate that the internal friction and shareholder opposition to the compensation package for 2011 and after led to his ouster, but other sources deny that.
| 148 |
kirkspencer Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:55:46am |
re: #126 Lidane
[Embedded content]
The line is inaccurate. The court did not order him to keep the same hours as 2008. It ordered him to allow early voting for everyone.
"all" he's doing is reducing the hours. And he's reducing them for everyone, military or otherwise.
Keeping to the letter of the order while blowing the spirit to kingdom come.
| 149 |
jc717 Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:57:43am |
re: #62 Sheila Broflovski
CEO pay is not based on performance, a CEO can totally fuck up and still get a golden parachute (Citigroup). Who are the asshats on the committees that determine CEO compensation?
Yep. Vikram Pandit made over 250 Million during his 5 year stint at Citi. During this time the stock declined by 90%.
Compensation is determined by the board of directors, who more often than not act as a blank check for the CEO.
At top US companies, the number of CEOs, or senior execs in general, that are objectively worth what they make is very small.
| 151 |
kirkspencer Thu, Oct 18, 2012 6:59:21am |
re: #145 Decatur Deb
It would have tested better if the Earth were flat.
Or if the design teams had been allowed to coordinate signal sharing between the detection and firing systems. (Well, some said allowed. head of the track development team used 'required'.)
It failed. It's an excellent example of the horse designed by committee.
| 153 |
iossarian Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:02:05am |
re: #138 Daniel Ballard
Like LAUSD spending 200 million plus for high schools with high end fancy architecture, one of which never opened.
"High end fancy architecture?" God forbid the proles should have nice things.
Planning mistakes happen in the public sector as well as the private sector, for sure. I am just not aware of research showing that they are particularly prevalent in one or the other. It's the default assumption on the right that the public sector is wasteful that I'm challenging.
| 154 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:03:24am |
re: #152 lawhawk
The Dog Days are Over
[Embedded content]
So the Dog Days got strapped to the top of a station wagon and driven to Canada?
/Sorry, I couldn't resist.
| 155 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:03:33am |
re: #135 Obdicut
And that's the second time he's defied the courts on this. He's committing a crime.
How would this be enforced? If a court says "thou shalt [not] do xyz", and the response is "make me", how does the "make me" part happen?
| 156 |
darthstar Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:04:31am |
I love how Amazon.com has become the place for high quality snark. This one, of course, is about binders...women love them! Oh, and when I went there the banner ad was (probably because of the context) for pregnancy home testing kits.
| 157 |
lawhawk Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:04:55am |
re: #153 iossarian
And that probably wouldn't include those government sponsored projects that rack up huge cost overruns due to private companies overcharging for the projects after underbidding so as to win the contracts in the first place.
It's pretty well recognized that companies will underbid on the costs of public infrastructure projects, and then bill for additional incurred charges that were "unforeseen". Those charges then get passed on to the taxpayers.
Sometimes, those unforeseen items were really unforeseen (like geological conditions not expected, or utilities that didn't show on any existing map, or external cost increases due to scarcity of materials), but in other instances, it was to underbid so as to win the right to the contract.
| 158 |
AK-47% Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:05:04am |
re: #153 iossarian
"High end fancy architecture?" God forbid the proles should have nice things.
Planning mistakes happen in the public sector as well as the private sector, for sure. I am just not aware of research showing that they are particularly prevalent in one or the other. It's the default assumption on the right that the public sector is wasteful that I'm challenging.
Gary, Indiana was corruptly governed (a tradition going back to its founder) and awash in federal education funding in the 60's. They built a junior high school that was supposed to be air-conditioned, so it had no windows that opened.
Then they managed to a) install the insulation backwards wo that it kept the heat in rather than out, and b) ran out of money to install the AC units.
So as soon as temps got over 80° outside it was nearly 90° in the classrooms...
| 159 |
Reverend Mother Ramallo Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:05:51am |
re: #131 A Mom Anon
I should also add that this is a mom with 2 little kids at home. Her husband has PTSD from two tours in Iraq and is unable to be a decent dad right now. She's having to figure out how to afford a babysitter at the moment. If she put the kids in daycare she would be paying more money than she makes for that. So the kids are being bounced around from relative to relative,friend to friend. Imagine not having a steady and reliable source of childcare while trying like hell to stay off welfare. She's getting food stamps and some sort of weird Ohio substitute for Medicaid run by private insurance. She works all the hours they'll let her. She is also NOT allowed to take any time off for any reason til after inventory is done in January because of the holidays and yearly inventory. She's even been asked to work off the clock before and is scared to say no. She wants to go to school and make a better life for her kids but doesn't see how that's going to happen.
So rich fuckers who whine about money and taxes can blow me. Fuck them. Job Creators my ass.
This.
Everyone I have known who has worked for Wal-Mart quit as soon as it was financially possible.
A horrible place, run by horrible people.
| 160 |
lawhawk Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:06:22am |
re: #156 darthstar
The user who wrote that review? Bazinga.
Nothing quite like a Big Bang Theory geek...
| 161 |
makeitstop Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:07:57am |
re: #139 Sheila Broflovski
I hope they will be able to play ALcS #4 this afternoon. Last night's game was rained out. The sports pundits are saying that the Yankees will suffer more from the game delay. Heh.
I'm not sure how they could suffer more at this point. They're dead in the water right now.
To quote the new Stones single, 'Goes to show you don't get what you pay for.'
| 162 |
iossarian Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:08:52am |
re: #139 Sheila Broflovski
I hope they will be able to play ALcS #4 this afternoon. Last night's game was rained out. The sports pundits are saying that the Yankees will suffer more from the game delay. Heh.
Go Tigs!
| 163 |
Interesting Times Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:09:42am |
Final Newsweek cover: Why Barack Obama is the Worst Gay President to Ever Breastfeed Muslim Rage— Christopher Hayes (@chrislhayes) October 18, 2012
| 164 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:09:44am |
| 165 |
Mocking Jay Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:10:04am |
re: #159 Reverend Mother Ramallo
This.
Everyone I have known who has worked for Wal-Mart quit as soon as it was financially possible.
A horrible place, run by horrible people.
They create crappy jobs by eliminating the little-less-crappier jobs available in the small business mom and pop stores around them.
| 166 |
kirkspencer Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:10:23am |
re: #155 Our Precious Bodily Fluids
How would this be enforced? If a court says "thou shalt [not] do xyz", and the response is "make me", how does the "make me" part happen?
See integration in the civil rights era.
| 168 |
AK-47% Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:13:53am |
re: #165 Mocking Jay
They create crappy jobs by eliminating the little-less-crappier jobs available in the small business mom and pop stores around them.
But...Mitt supports small business!!!!111!!!"TY
| 169 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:17:24am |
At what point does a "small business" become a "large business"?
How do you define a contracting agency that has not more than 200 employees but places them all with clients like GM, Ford, or US Government?
| 170 |
Kaessa Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:19:36am |
re: #164 Sheila Broflovski
This has been happening more and more often. I'm on the FDA drug warning mailing list, and shit like this happens ALL the time. I'm on a lot of medications, so I really worry about it. Fortunately for me on this particular one, my vicodin isn't at that dosage. I've been looking at all of my pills a lot more closely, though.
| 171 |
Reverend Mother Ramallo Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:19:45am |
Are hedge funds considered small businesses?
| 172 |
AK-47% Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:20:13am |
We still cling to iconic images like the "family business" and "family farm" although they have little bearing on modern economic realities.
| 173 |
darthstar Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:21:18am |
re: #169 Sheila Broflovski
At what point does a "small business" become a "large business"?
How do you define a contracting agency that has not more than 200 employees but places them all with clients like GM, Ford, or US Government?
McIlhenny - Tabasco - is a 'small business' $160 million dollars a year small business.
KBR - the guys who built defective showers in Iraq to electrocute our troops - are a small business.
| 174 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:21:38am |
re: #171 Reverend Mother Ramallo
Are hedge funds considered small businesses?
I think so, even though they do not have any product.
| 175 |
darthstar Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:21:45am |
| 176 |
darthstar Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:22:44am |
I think as long as a company is privately owned, it can qualify as a small business.
| 177 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:23:59am |
re: #176 darthstar
I think as long as a company is privately owned, it can qualify as a small business.
Westgate Resorts (whose owner built a 90,000-sq. ft. house and threatened to fire all his workers if Obama wins), is a "small" business.
| 178 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:24:59am |
Romney told Obama: "You also have investments in Chinese companies. You also have investments outside the United States. You also have investments through a Caymans trust."
It’s an accurate set of statements when you consider investments made by managers of the Illinois pension fund in which Obama has an account.
As we noted in reviewing previous claims about Romney’s investments in China, the investments involved are indirect and -- as far as anybody has said -- made without the knowledge of the account holder.
With that clarification, we rate Romney’s statement Mostly True.
| 179 |
darthstar Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:25:00am |
Tagg Romney thought that boy needed a whuppin' after the debate for making his daddy look like the lying cocksucker that he is.
Dog whistles, Mitt bought them for the whole family.
| 180 |
Mocking Jay Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:25:21am |
re: #177 Sheila Broflovski
Westgate Resorts (whose owner built a 90,000-sq. ft. house and threatened to fire all his workers if Obama wins), is a "small" business.
Well...
Mitt Romney Encouraged Business Owners To Advise Employees How To Vote
| 181 |
Reverend Mother Ramallo Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:25:35am |
So.
What jobs do they create?
That is, other than jobs for GOP talking point creators.
| 182 |
darthstar Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:25:47am |
re: #177 Sheila Broflovski
Westgate Resorts (whose owner built a 90,000-sq. ft. house and threatened to fire all his workers if Obama wins), is a "small" business.
Yep. And he gets to take advantage of small business tax incentives.
| 184 |
AK-47% Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:27:23am |
re: #182 darthstar
Yep. And he gets to take advantage of small business tax incentives.
Just like agribusiness takes advantage of subsidies originally intended for "family farms".
| 185 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:27:32am |
re: #182 darthstar
Yep. And he gets to take advantage of small business tax incentives.
The guy is such a freakin' douche. The only people who work for him are offshore telemarketers and sleazy, high-pressure timeshare sales staff.
Let him fire 'em all, and make his own telemarketing calls.
| 186 |
Reverend Mother Ramallo Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:27:36am |
re: #179 darthstar
Tagg Romney thought that boy needed a whuppin' after the debate for making his daddy look like the lying cocksucker that he is.
Dog whistles, Mitt bought them for the whole family.
Cowardly Lion.
| 187 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:27:45am |
| 188 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:28:12am |
| 189 |
darthstar Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:28:24am |
How Mitt & Ann Romney made millions--and Mitt's hedge fund donors made billions--from the auto bailout that he condemned: tnat.in/ezT80— The Nation (@thenation) October 18, 2012
| 191 |
Mocking Jay Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:29:10am |
| 192 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:29:15am |
re: #189 darthstar
[Embedded content]
Pfft. Big deal. Obama is just like them. See Killgore's post.
//
| 193 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:29:57am |
re: #178 Killgore Trout
With that clarification, we rate Romney’s statement Mostly True.
True words, except in the sense that they mean nothing like the idea it was intended to convey to the electorate.
"TPGOP True".
| 195 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:30:21am |
re: #191 Mocking Jay
Just with less zeroes on his net worth!
Yeah, and the part about being the CEO of Bain and owning Chinese factories which fence in their workers. Same thing.
| 196 |
Interesting Times Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:30:31am |
Unless KT can dig up an MBF about Mahlia Obama wanting to "take a swing" at Romney, he remains full of fail :P
| 197 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:30:48am |
WaPo on Mitt's binder full of women: Fact checking Romney’s ‘binders full of women’ anecdote
Romney suggested that during the debate that he took the initiative to find qualified female candidates for his administration by reaching out to women’s groups. But the women’s group that created the “binders” in question said it contacted Romney first, not the other way around. In fact, the organization said Romney signed their hiring-parity pledge while he was still campaigning in 2002.
Overall, Romney seems to have embellished the story here, omitting the role of the women’s caucus in the female-hiring initiative. But he still worked with the women’s caucus and appointed lots of women to top-level positions. Given the passage of time since this incident took place, the gist of his anecdote isn’t totally off-base. The Republican candidate earns two Pinocchios.
| 198 |
darthstar Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:30:50am |
re: #192 Gus
Pfft. Big deal. Obama is just like them. See Killgore's post.
//
I try not to read Killgore's posts as a general rule. Speaking of which, who's this BRC and Dolphin on twitter that's obsessed with your penis? My feed was full of their crap this morning.
| 200 |
lawhawk Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:31:37am |
re: #178 Killgore Trout
Obama would have no control over what investments the pension fund invests in. That's completely different from Romney, who got to decide where he put his funds before setting up the "blind trusts".
The two situations are not equal.
| 201 |
kirkspencer Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:32:29am |
re: #178 Killgore Trout
Really?
OK, the other day I somewhat defended fact-checkers because they have to use context and a degree of subjectivity. But for the common man, "He put his money 'there'" means the he in question had control of the placement. Unless I'm in control I have no say where my company puts its pension moneys.
Which politifact mentions, which makes this even more stupid.
The context was that Obama had control of the placement. Since he did not this falls into the same context as selective quoting, and so becomes false.
| 203 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:32:32am |
re: #198 darthstar
I try not to read Killgore's posts as a general rule. Speaking of which, who's this BRC and Dolphin on twitter that's obsessed with your penis? My feed was full of their crap this morning.
LOL. Those are two stalkers. BRC is Boiler Room Crew who was going around as Gus_807 and the Dolphin guy I can't figure out who he is. Frankly I don't know who they are other than a couple of anonymous former Lizards.
| 204 |
Mocking Jay Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:32:35am |
re: #195 Gus
Yeah, and the part about being the CEO of Bain and owning Chinese factories which fence in their workers. Same thing.
We are all Romneys now!
| 205 |
makeitstop Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:33:12am |
re: #179 darthstar
Tagg Romney thought that boy needed a whuppin' after the debate for making his daddy look like the lying cocksucker that he is.
Dog whistles, Mitt bought them for the whole family.
What do you think the odds are that the Secret Service gave Tagg some friendly advice not to show up at the next debate?
Asshole Father begets Asshole Son. It goes with Mitt telling Obama 'You'll get your chance in a minute' during the debate. They stink of entitlement.
| 206 |
A Mom Anon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:33:14am |
re: #187 NJDhockeyfan
That might be a tad different than actually visiting a Chinese sweatshop that makes small appliances that you later had a role in purchasing. Then coming home and talking to your rich buddies how awesome it is that the place is surrounded by barbed wire,the women have communal bathrooms and they get ONE DAY off a year.
Or the little matter of knowing you're closing plants here and moving them to China,but you know,it's just business.
Yeah,that's just the same as having pension funds invested in China some place. See,if Mitt's only China connection was via pension funds,then it probably wouldn't be fair to be pissed about it. But,he's actively been involved in taking jobs out of America and sending them to China. He knows precisely what the hell he's doing here. If he doesn't than in addition to being an asshole,he's an idiot.
(edited to remove the blind trust part,I don't understand that well enough to comment on it.)
| 207 |
Targetpractice Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:33:16am |
re: #197 Killgore Trout
WaPo on Mitt's binder full of women: Fact checking Romney’s ‘binders full of women’ anecdote
So he tells the audience that he went looking for qualified for women by his own initiative, while the record shows he was complying with a pledge he and his opponent signed to win over women voters and did so by receiving a list of qualified candidates rather than seeking them out.
Yeah, I hear he also balanced the budget all four years he was governor and cut taxes while doing so. Just don't ask anybody from MA how he did it.
| 208 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:34:31am |
Since Mitt Romney's "binders full of women" is not true we find that making fun out of Romney for this to be mostly false and misleading.
-- Factcheck
| 209 |
lawhawk Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:34:34am |
re: #197 Killgore Trout
Appointed so many women, that the percentage of women in those positions actually dropped from 30% to 27%. Yeah, that's one heck of a job there Mitt.
| 210 |
Kronocide Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:34:36am |
re: #200 lawhawk
Obama would have no control over what investments the pension fund invests in. That's completely different from Romney, who got to decide where he put his funds before setting up the "blind trusts".
The two situations are not equal.
Which is exactly why 'Mostly True' is practically speaking entirely irrelevant.
This is the height of intellectual dishonesty, pretty pathetic. Keep digging the hole KT.
| 211 |
Interesting Times Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:34:53am |
re: #207 Targetpractice
So he tells the audience that he went looking for qualified for women by his own initiative, while the record shows he was complying with a pledge he and his opponent signed to win over women voters and did so by receiving a list of qualified candidates rather than seeking them out.
And what, pray tell, made those candidates "qualified"?
5 of 8!!-------->>RT @buzzfeedben: Many In Romney's "Binder Full Women" Were Campaign Donors buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynsk...— Clara Jeffery (@ClaraJeffery) October 18, 2012
| 212 |
makeitstop Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:35:13am |
Fact-checker Thursday, here on LGF. Whoopee.
| 213 |
Mocking Jay Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:36:11am |
re: #211 Interesting Times
And what, pray tell, made those candidates "qualified"?
[Embedded content]
Pay-to-Play...
| 214 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:36:15am |
Castro: I'm not dead yet! | bit.ly/T2Ne0L— UPI.com (@UPI) October 18, 2012
| 215 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:36:26am |
According to Factcheck if persona A makes a false statement person B chiding person A for making that false statement would be wrong because person A made a false statement.
| 216 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:36:46am |
re: #210 Kronocide
Which is exactly why 'Mostly True' is practically speaking entirely irrelevant.
This is the height of intellectual dishonesty, pretty pathetic. Keep digging the hole KT.
If you told a nun something that was "mostly true" she would ask you to hold out your hand. She would not give you candy.
| 218 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:38:27am |
| 220 |
AK-47% Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:39:24am |
This is factoid and soundbyte-driven America. Fact-checkers prey on our notion that there must be some sort of 100%, fuly objective "truth" out there against which all statements can be compared and judfged.
Which is horseshit.
| 221 |
makeitstop Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:41:33am |
| 222 |
Kronocide Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:43:01am |
Maybe it's time to review the Romney Twitter Assassination non-troversy.
Or not.
| 223 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:44:28am |
re: #222 Kronocide
Maybe it's time to review the Romney Twitter Assassination non-troversy.
Or not.
Let me guess. They found some 17 year old kid/nut that made some crazy threat on Twitter so shut up about Tagg Romney already sort of thing because "you liberals" are worse thing?
| 224 |
lawhawk Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:48:36am |
re: #217 Gus
NYT - Syrian civil war finally comes to Damascus, a headline and thesis that ignores that there has been heavy fighting in and around Damascus for weeks and months now, including the attacks that killed several high ranking security officials a few months back (including relatives of Assad). But the fighting is now beginning to take its toll on populations that were previously insulated from the fighting.
Israeli President Shimon Peres is calling on the Iranian people to overthrow the mullahs in the name of freedom and democracy. Iran warns that if it is attacked, Iran will eradicate Israel, even if Israel isn't directly behind those attacks.
So much for the coming avalanche of Jewish voters for GOPers. It really isn't happening and we're seeing a reversion to the longer term trend.
| 225 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:49:13am |
Mitt Romney Leaked Fundraiser Video - Iran
A donor asks Romney how he could duplicate the Iran hostage scenario to push for war. Mitt responds that he would "take advantage" of an "opportunity" like that.
| 226 |
compound_Idaho Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:49:45am |
re: #176 darthstar
I think as long as a company is privately owned, it can qualify as a small business.
The SBA definition is based on revenue and number of employees.
| 227 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:52:33am |
Kucinich Says Failure to Impeach Bush Has Allowed Obama to Intensify Bush's Policies
Congressman Dennis Kucinich, who led failed efforts to impeach then President George W. Bush and Vice President Richard B. Cheney, says that failure to hold them accountable has allowed the continuation and intensification of their war policies under President Obama. Kucinich believes that, more than anything else, a truth and reconcilation process is needed.
| 228 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:52:35am |
re: #224 lawhawk
NYT - Syrian civil war finally comes to Damascus, a headline and thesis that ignores that there has been heavy fighting in and around Damascus for weeks and months now, including the attacks that killed several high ranking security officials a few months back (including relatives of Assad). But the fighting is now beginning to take its toll on populations that were previously insulated from the fighting.
Israeli President Shimon Peres is calling on the Iranian people to overthrow the mullahs in the name of freedom and democracy. Iran warns that if it is attacked, Iran will eradicate Israel, even if Israel isn't directly behind those attacks.
So much for the coming avalanche of Jewish voters for GOPers. It really isn't happening and we're seeing a reversion to the longer term trend.
Did you check with Aigle first on those links?
//
| 229 |
lawhawk Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:53:44am |
re: #221 makeitstop
Well, OWS has thwarted an annual tradition at Trinity Church in NYC. The church has cancelled its Halloween party due to ongoing presence of OWSers in and around church property.
Trinity's Rector Rev. Dr. James H. Cooper wrote Sunday in a statement on the church's website that the "decision was made out of an abundance of caution as we continue to face safety issues arising from the sidewalk camp in front of Trinity Church."
Cooper added in his note that a "longtime maintenance superintendent at Trinity was the victim of an assault as he was attempting to clean areas of the sidewalk affected by the camp."
The sidewalk is publicly owned but privately maintained, like other sidewalks in New York.
Trinity spokeswoman Linda Hanick said that on Thursday, Oct. 11, a person in the encampment put an air horn up to the worker's ear while he was trying to clean and then "blasted" it. The employee was forced to seek medical care as a result, she said.
Police saw the incident unfold and made an arrest, Hanick said. Cooper noted in his statement that there have been nine arrests related to the encampment since it arrived.
An NYPD spokesman was not able to confirm the arrests or the horn-blowing allegations.
Cops released the person involved in the air-horn incident, and that individual is now back in front of the church, Hanick added.
Though Trinity does not want to cancel the planned movies and organ music — which have drawn crowds of up to 1,200 children over the last seven years — the institution feels it has no choice.
| 230 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:56:15am |
re: #229 lawhawk
The remnants there are real assholes. Have you been by there? It's really creepy now. There's not that many of them.
| 231 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:57:31am |
Mitt Romney's Binder 2. "Bomb Iran and Regulate Lady Parts." #p2 #tlot #Obama #Obama2012 #ObamaBiden2012 twitter.com/Gus_802/status...— Gus (@Gus_802) October 17, 2012
| 232 |
kirkspencer Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:57:42am |
re: #226 compound_Idaho
The SBA definition is based on revenue and number of employees.
For reference,
SBA defines a small business concern as one that is independently owned and operated, is organized for profit, and is not dominant in its field. Depending on the industry, size standard eligibility is based on the average number of employees for the preceding twelve months or on sales volume averaged over a three-year period. Examples of SBA general size standards include the following:
Manufacturing: Maximum number of employees may range from 500 to 1500, depending on the type of product manufactured;
Wholesaling: Maximum number of employees may range from 100 to 500 depending on the particular product being provided;
Services: Annual receipts may not exceed $2.5 to $21.5 million, depending on the particular service being provided;
Retailing: Annual receipts may not exceed $5.0 to $21.0 million, depending on the particular product being provided;
General and Heavy Construction: General construction annual receipts may not exceed $13.5 to $17 million, depending on the type of construction;
Special Trade Construction: Annual receipts may not exceed $7 million; and
Agriculture: Annual receipts may not exceed $0.5 to $9.0 million, depending on the agricultural product.
| 233 |
Kronocide Thu, Oct 18, 2012 7:58:56am |
NJD Drinking Game:
Dinnerjacket
Kucinich
OWS
IDF
Code Pink
Cynthia McKinney
| 234 |
lawhawk Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:00:02am |
re: #230 Obdicut
I haven't been down that way in a while, but I might go ahead and check today...
| 235 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:01:59am |
re: #234 lawhawk
I haven't been down that way in a while, but I might go ahead and check today...
Bring ear plugs!
| 236 |
Mocking Jay Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:02:02am |
re: #233 Kronocide
NJD Drinking Game:
Dinnerjacket
Kucinich
OWS
IDF
Code Pink
Cynthia McKinney
Well I guess we'll be staring the day a little early then.
| 237 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:02:19am |
3 arrested in deaths of 5 at Fero's Bar & Grill in Denver
Denver police have arrested three suspects — including two brothers and a parolee — in the deaths of five people whose bodies were found inside a Denver bar after a fire was set.
...
The victims have been identified as: Young Suk Fero, 63, the owner of the business; Daria M. Pohl, 22, of Denver; Kellene Fallon, 45, of Denver; Ross Richter, 29; and Tereasa Beesley, 45, of Denver.
...
| 238 |
AK-47% Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:02:50am |
re: #226 compound_Idaho
The SBA definition is based on revenue and number of employees.
We still have a mental image of dad running a plumbing shop while mom helps with the bookkeeping. I nearly fell for Mitt's argument in the first debate when he talked about the need to lower taxes for "small businesses" until I checked the statistics of what that really meant.
| 239 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:03:20am |
re: #233 Kronocide
Random Daily Fail link.
Article about some Democrat attacking Obama
| 240 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:04:33am |
80-Year-Old Woman Arrested for Taking Down Posters of Obama with Hitler Mustache
An 80-year-old woman who remembers when the United States helped defeat the Nazis faces charges for tearing down posters of President Barack Obama with a Hitler mustache.
Nancy Lack said she was livid when she saw the posters, put up by supporters of perennial fringe presidential candidate Lyndon LaRouche, outside of her post office in Hebron, Conn., NBC Connecticut reported.
"My generation went through the Second World War, and Nazism is about the worst there can be," Lack told NBC Connecticut. "I just got very angry that they would do that to Obama’s image."
She took down the posters, knowing she would get in trouble for it, and put them in her car while a worker with LaRouchePAC followed her.
Afterward, she was arrested and now faces sixth-degree larceny and breach of peace charges.
| 241 |
AK-47% Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:05:07am |
re: #239 Obdicut
Random Daily Fail link.
Article about some Democrat attacking Obama
Ned to remind said Democrat just what attacking Obama is going to get us all...and it starts with "R".
| 242 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:05:33am |
re: #240 NJDhockeyfan
80-Year-Old Woman Arrested for Taking Down Posters of Obama with Hitler Mustache
I am surprised to learn that Larouche is still alive.
| 243 |
b_sharp Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:07:00am |
re: #215 Gus
According to Factcheck if persona A makes a false statement person B chiding person A for making that false statement would be wrong because person A made a false statement.
In English please.
I think their rating was worth 4 D'ohs.
(We need our own rating system.)
| 244 |
Kronocide Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:07:41am |
re: #242 Sheila Broflovski
I am surprised to learn that Larouche is still alive.
I'm more interested in the Six Levels of Larceny in Hebron.
Is there a 7th?
| 245 |
William Barnett-Lewis Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:07:56am |
re: #100 Sheila Broflovski
If workers are forced to apply for food stamps and medicaid because the "job creator" is too stingy to provide health insurance and a living wage, the top stockholders/executives of that corporation should be taxed for the amount of government aid that is provided to their employees.
I am such a freaking socialist.
QFT.
| 246 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:08:32am |
Is this fact check angst really about Politifact, or really anger over how KT applies it? I just went to politifact and found this clarification.
""It’s an accurate set of statements when you consider investments made by managers of the Illinois pension fund in which Obama has an account.""
In plain english-They are not Obamas investment decisions, just that of a fund manager. But hey pay no attention to the actual details provided, just get mad at "mostly true".
helluva big microscope over everything critical of the sitting president these days. Must be "close election" pressure.
| 247 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:08:52am |
re: #243 Gangnam Style
In English please.
I think their rating was worth 4 D'ohs.
(We need our own rating system.)
Well, the wingnuts seem to be obsessed with penises. Maybe we can make it like 4-dildos.
| 248 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:09:30am |
| 249 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:10:18am |
re: #215 Gus
According to Factcheck if persona A makes a false statement person B chiding person A for making that false statement would be wrong because person A made a false statement.
Got an example of that?
| 251 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:11:09am |
re: #246 Daniel Ballard
Is this fact check angst really about Politifact, or really anger over how KT applies it? I just went to politifact and found this clarification.
""It’s an accurate set of statements when you consider investments made by managers of the Illinois pension fund in which Obama has an account.""
In plain english-They are not Obamas investment decisions, just that of a fund manager. But hey pay no attention to the actual details provided, just get mad at "mostly true".
helluva big microscope over everything critical of the sitting president these days. Must be "close election" pressure.
I thought people were pretty clear in the criticism. Romney was attempting to dishonestly claim that Obama's investment choices were similar to his. It's a lie, of course: there's no comparison between being an investor yourself, setting up Bain, etc. and owning shares in a pension fund.
It's a good case of why the literal truth misses the good picture, and the limitations of 'factchecking'.
| 252 |
kirkspencer Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:12:27am |
re: #246 Daniel Ballard
Is this fact check angst really about Politifact, or really about angst over how KT applies it? I just went to politifact and found this clarification.
""It’s an accurate set of statements when you consider investments made by managers of the Illinois pension fund in which Obama has an account.""
In plain english-They are not Obamas investment decisions, just that of a fund manager. But hey pay no attention to the actual details provided, just get mad at "mostly true".
helluva big microscope over everything critical of the sitting president these days. Must be "close election" pressure.
See my reply @ #201. Bottom line: It's equivalent to selective quoting and thus mostly false. And since Politifact points this out it makes their rating the height of intellectual dishonesty.
| 254 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:14:53am |
re: #125 iossarian
In my (public) higher education job, I don't have business cards, because we cut them out of the budget. I could of course buy some myself but I find it more effective to use this as a laugh line when I'm meeting people at conferences (to which I go infrequently because of budget restrictions).
The idea that public sector work is wasteful is just another case of massive projection by right wingers who are happy to fling money at super-duper bombers that are obsolete before they are ever used.
I can agree with the general sentiment of the comment, but also want to point out that in the ideal world you never want to actually use your super-duper bombers anyways!
| 255 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:14:59am |
re: #252 kirkspencer
See my reply @ #201. Bottom line: It's equivalent to selective quoting and thus mostly false. And since Politifact points this out it makes their rating the height of intellectual dishonesty.
I think it's more just academic fuzziness. The biggest problem with the 'factcheckers' is their framing of what they're looking at. They sometimes frame it in such a narrow or constrained way that the obvious truth is obscured, the forest blocked by trees.
Logically, if a member of the SS said of Sgt. York "Sgt. York has also killed people", that'd be true, but it would also not matter in the least that it was true. It'd still be an attempt at deception and confusion.
| 256 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:15:24am |
| 257 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:17:06am |
re: #256 Daniel Ballard
How does the literal truth exclude the details? Blaming Politifact for people not absorbing details they actually did provide seems like misplaced blame to me.
Because this is a bumper-sticker election, not the Oxford Union.
| 258 |
erik_t Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:17:11am |
re: #256 Daniel Ballard
How does the literal truth exclude the details? Blaming Politifact for people not absorbing details they actually did provide seems like misplaced blame to me.
Because Politifact regularly gives all of the details and then ignores them in order to assign a sound-bite retweetable rating.
| 259 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:17:29am |
re: #256 Daniel Ballard
How does the literal truth exclude the details? Blaming Politifact for people not absorbing details they actually did provide seems like misplaced blame to me.
Huh? I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean. What I'm saying is that while Romney's statement is literally true, the intent of his statement is still an attempt at deception, and a lie.
There are an infinite number of examples where literal truth can be used to convey deception, to mislead someone else. It's very, very common in politics, and I don't see much value in examining sentences for semantic truth while ignoring the actual attempt to deceive.
| 260 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:18:04am |
Syrian rebels may have acquired surface-to-air missiles
Newly released video footage shows a Syrian military helicopter exploding, apparently after being struck by hostile fire. Other pictures from inside the country appear to show Syrian rebels carrying SA-7 shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missiles.
If the Free Syrian Army is operating these weapons, this would mark a step change in their military capabilities. Laurent Fabius, the French foreign minister, hinted as much, saying the insurgents now deployed “weapons that are forcing the planes to fly extremely high”. As a result, the air strikes were “less accurate," he told journalists in Paris.
The SA-7, a heat-seeking missile from the Soviet era, can destroy a plane flying at up to 14,000ft. Mr Assad’s air force has hitherto been able to strike with impunity. Air raids on rebel-held territory have become daily events, with the regime using MI-24 helicopter gunships along with MiG and Sukhoi jet fighters. Many civilians have been among the casualties.
| 261 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:18:16am |
re: #258 erik_t
Aha, I see we are blaming Politifact for readers poor detail retention skills. Especially when they might make the President we dearly hope will win look bad for a split second.
| 262 |
William Barnett-Lewis Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:18:27am |
re: #198 darthstar
I try not to read Killgore's posts as a general rule.
This is what we all should do. Just let him and his Crabbe & Goyle blather back and forth praising the Politifact propaganda.
| 263 |
AK-47% Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:18:29am |
re: #254 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste
I can agree with the general sentiment of the comment, but also want to point out that in the ideal world you never want to actually use your super-duper bombers anyways!
The "super-duper bombers" have to be operational in order to serve their deterrent purpose. A lot of weapons systems never make it that far.
| 264 |
erik_t Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:19:03am |
re: #261 Daniel Ballard
Aha, I see we are blaming Politifact for readers poor detail retention skills. Especially when they might make the President we dearly hope will win look bad for a split second.
No, that's bullshit. A dishonest summary is a dishonest summary, and you know damned well that's what I was saying.
| 265 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:19:27am |
re: #261 Daniel Ballard
Aha, I see we are blaming Politifact for readers poor detail retention skills. Especially when they might make the President we dearly hope will win look bad for a split second.
Where do you see that, exactly? I'm sorry, I don't get why you're not understanding:
If someone is telling the truth with the intention to deceive, it's still an intent to deceive, to lie, right?
| 266 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:19:28am |
re: #148 kirkspencer
The line is inaccurate. The court did not order him to keep the same hours as 2008. It ordered him to allow early voting for everyone.
"all" he's doing is reducing the hours. And he's reducing them for everyone, military or otherwise.
Keeping to the letter of the order while blowing the spirit to kingdom come.
What does he have against the troops!?!
//
| 267 |
b_sharp Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:20:11am |
re: #251 Obdicut
I thought people were pretty clear in the criticism. Romney was attempting to dishonestly claim that Obama's investment choices were similar to his. It's a lie, of course: there's no comparison between being an investor yourself, setting up Bain, etc. and owning shares in a pension fund.
It's a good case of why the literal truth misses the good picture, and the limitations of 'factchecking'.
That's what happens when context is removed in the pursuit of literal objectivity.
It's equivalent to answering the question "did he say those words" with a 'yes' when those words separated from the rest of what was said reverses the intended meaning.
| 268 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:20:15am |
Going to student/teacher conference.
Have a great day!
| 269 |
Kronocide Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:20:37am |
re: #264 erik_t
No, that's bullshit. A dishonest summary is a dishonest summary, and you know damned well that's what I was saying.
A dishonest summary of a dishonest summary makes the dishonest summary of the dishonest summary a dishonest summary.
| 270 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:21:15am |
re: #268 NJDhockeyfan
Going to student/teacher conference.
Have a great day!
If she says "Put out your hand", dont.
| 271 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:21:57am |
I own one stock of Bain therefore I am just like Romney. So shut up!
-- Politifact
//
| 273 |
lawhawk Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:24:51am |
re: #262 William Barnett-Lewis
Updinged for the Harry Potter reference.
| 274 |
Kronocide Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:25:29am |
re: #271 Gus
I own one stock of Bain therefore I am just like Romney. So shut up!
-- Politifact//
You'll love this Drudgarriah:
The great Candy Crowley did not 'fact check' during debate how O has Investments In Cayman Trust...... and has bigger pension than Romney!— MATT DRUDGE (@DRUDGE) October 18, 2012
Consider that substantial wealth negates the need for a pension moron.
| 275 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:25:46am |
| 276 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:25:48am |
What what what
Onboard the Romney plane: Jerome Corsi politico.com/blogs/media/20... via @politico— JoDe CObamaMama (@JoViClo) October 18, 2012
| 277 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:27:05am |
re: #276 Sheila Broflovski
Jerome Corsi, the political writer and conspiracy theorist, is traveling with the Mitt Romney press corps today.
Romney has no fucking shame at all. Not the slightest bit of it.
| 279 |
b_sharp Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:27:39am |
re: #261 Daniel Ballard
Aha, I see we are blaming Politifact for readers poor detail retention skills. Especially when they might make the President we dearly hope will win look bad for a split second.
It isn't about Obama's optics as much as about recognition of Romney's dishonesty.
He's using rhetorical games to make specious attacks that give insight into his character. We/I want to make sure the intent of his comments are fact checked so that character becomes public knowledge.
This wouldn't change even if Mickey mouse was his opponent.
| 280 |
Reverend Mother Ramallo Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:28:08am |
re: #246 Daniel Ballard
Is this fact check angst really about Politifact, or really anger over how KT applies it? I just went to politifact and found this clarification.
""It’s an accurate set of statements when you consider investments made by managers of the Illinois pension fund in which Obama has an account.""
In plain english-They are not Obamas investment decisions, just that of a fund manager. But hey pay no attention to the actual details provided, just get mad at "mostly true".
helluva big microscope over everything critical of the sitting president these days. Must be "close election" pressure.
For me, yes it is the application.
The reason I spend so much time on LGF is because of the depth of conversation. People use their brains here. It adds nothing to a thread when a half-assed observation from Politifact, or anywhere else is thrown in as the ultimate purveyor of truth.
I could see its use as a tool for further examining a topic, but is that what KT is doing?
Initially, I thought, yes. Not so much anymore.
| 281 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:29:19am |
Now KT is searching to see if Jerome Corsi has ever been on Air Force 1 or in the White House.
| 282 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:29:26am |
re: #240 NJDhockeyfan
80-Year-Old Woman Arrested for Taking Down Posters of Obama with Hitler Mustache
Civil disobedience on par with the woman vandalizing the "Jihad" posters in the NYC subway. Done on moral grounds with the understanding that there can and will be consequences.
| 283 |
AK-47% Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:30:00am |
re: #280 Reverend Mother Ramallo
For me, yes it is the application.
The reason I spend so much time on LGF is because of the depth of conversation. People use their brains here. It adds nothing to a thread when a half-assed observation from Politifact, or anywhere else is thrown in as the ultimate purveyor of truth.
I could see its use as a tool for further examining a topic, but is that what KT is doing?
Initially, I thought, yes. Not so much anymore.
exactly. tools. but a lot of us want instant enlightenment, objective truth in a bottle and immediate ideological gratification.
enough people out there offering that these days.
| 284 |
b_sharp Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:30:28am |
re: #274 Kronocide
You'll love this Drudgarriah:
[Embedded content]
Consider that substantial wealth negates the need for a pension moron.
They need to compare the size and the ability to control investments, not just pensions.
| 285 |
Kronocide Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:31:44am |
re: #284 Gangnam Style
They need to compare the size and the ability to control investments, not just pensions.
No need for a pension when you have FUCKYOU Money.
The rest of us with OHFUCK money need pensions.
| 286 |
AK-47% Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:31:46am |
How many Americans, both D and R, have "investments in China"?
| 287 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:31:51am |
re: #274 Kronocide
You'll love this Drudgarriah:
[Embedded content]
Consider that substantial wealth negates the need for a pension moron.
Romney doesn't have a pension! Derp. So anyone with a pension has a bigger pension than Romney.
| 288 |
AK-47% Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:33:03am |
re: #285 Kronocide
No need for a pension when you have FUCKYOU Money.
The rest of us with OHFUCK money needs pensions.
so
FUCKYOU > SHITLOADS
whereas
OHFUCK < SHITLOADS
?
| 289 |
b_sharp Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:33:15am |
re: #287 Gus
Romney doesn't have a pension! Derp. So anyone with a pension has a bigger pension than Romney.
His pension is so small, he needs pepper and tweezers to grab it.
| 290 |
Varek Raith Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:34:59am |
| 291 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:35:31am |
re: #286 AK-47%
How many Americans, both D and R, have "investments in China"?
Probably more than 47% would be my guess.
;p
| 292 |
b_sharp Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:35:40am |
I was just told Thunderbird 16.0.1 was available.
My response - whoop-de-fuckin-do.
I get more information from software than I do politicians.
| 293 |
Interesting Times Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:36:19am |
Mitt Romney's binders full of women from his time as governor have been found: #BindersFullOfWomen twitter.com/TeaPartyCat/st...— Top Conservative Cat (@TeaPartyCat) October 18, 2012
| 294 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:36:52am |
re: #292 Gangnam Style
I was just told Thunderbird 16.0.1 was available.
My response - whoop-de-fuckin-do.I get more information from software than I do politicians.
I thought you were talking about liquor.
| 295 |
AK-47% Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:37:26am |
To loolk at it another way: China, with population of around 1bn, owns $1.15 trillion in US bonds, so every single Chinese has around $1,000 worth of investments in the USA...
| 296 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:37:52am |
re: #286 AK-47%
How many Americans, both D and R, have "investments in China"?
Probably lots of people. That's why the line of attack is flawed.Think progress also likes to go through Republican tax filings looking for "shorts" on the economy. Most (rich) people have them in their portfolios as part of a common hedge strategy. Same with Off shore money, investments in China or an oil company with some connection to Iran, or whatever. Politicians are rich guys. Both D's and R's have these investments. We pretend it's outrageous when one side does it, then somehow magically different when the our side does it. Ultimately it's a self defeating strategy because it's so obviously hypocritical.
| 297 |
Reverend Mother Ramallo Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:37:56am |
I'm so sick of false equivalency.
| 298 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:38:25am |
America borrows money from China therefore we all invest in China so shut up!
-- Politifact
//
| 300 |
Only The Lurker Knows Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:39:35am |
re: #286 AK-47%
How many Americans, both D and R, have "investments in China"?
My Wife and I probably do as our 401Ks have Tech investments.
| 301 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:39:52am |
re: #296 Killgore Trout
Yep. And that's why trying to say that someone like Obama who invests at a third remove, and someone like Romney who sets up investment funds, are similar in the way they approach investments, is a bad case of false equivalence.
| 302 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:40:09am |
re: #298 Gus
America borrows money from China therefore we all invest in China so shut up!
-- Politifact//
No. No. No.
Food stamps are subsidized by the Chinese buying government bonds.
Therefore, the 47% are heavily invested in China! Oh NOES!!! They're commie leeches!
;P ///
(If Colbert borrows this one I want credit!)
| 303 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:40:43am |
re: #302 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste
No. No. No.
Food stamps are subsidized by the Chinese buying government bonds.
Therefore, the 47% are heavily invested in China! Oh NOES!!! They're commie leeches!
;P ///
We are all Chinese investors now.
| 304 |
blueraven Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:41:39am |
re: #178 Killgore Trout
Romney's statements by ruling
Click on the ruling to see all of Romney's statements for that ruling.
True30 (16%)(30)
Mostly True26 (14%)(26)
Half True53 (28%)(53)
Mostly False32 (17%)(32)
False31 (16%)(31)
Pants on Fire17 (9%
30% true
42% false
Obama's statements by ruling
Click on the ruling to see all of Obama's statements for that ruling.
True98 (22%)(98)
Mostly True102 (23%)(102)
Half True116 (26%)(116)
Mostly False54 (12%)(54)
False63 (14%)(63)
Pants on Fire7 (2%
45% true
28% false
Romney is upside down on truthfulness
*eliminating the stupid half true rating which is stupid and just about equal
| 305 |
The Mongoose Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:41:56am |
re: #298 Gus
America borrows money from China therefore we all invest in China so shut up!
-- Politifact//
Technically, that's China investing in the USA.
| 306 |
Targetpractice Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:41:59am |
re: #290 Varek Raith
Fox Omits Important Day From Benghazi Timeline To Attack Obama
That's alright, I've got wingnuts now arguing over the difference between "act" and "acts."
| 307 |
Varek Raith Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:42:49am |
re: #306 Targetpractice
That's alright, I've got wingnuts now arguing over the difference between "act" and "acts."
The GOP is just like the Dems!
-KT
| 308 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:42:53am |
re: #286 AK-47%
How many Americans, both D and R, have "investments in China"?
1. I might.
2. Who the hell knows except my 401k managers?
3. Pretty much the same thing with the Prez.
| 309 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:43:38am |
re: #179 darthstar
Tagg Romney thought that boy needed a whuppin' after the debate for making his daddy look like the lying cocksucker that he is.
Dog whistles, Mitt bought them for the whole family.
Mitt Romney does not use a dog whistle. No point to it, since no dog will come to him when called.
///
| 310 |
Targetpractice Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:43:39am |
re: #307 Varek Raith
The GOP is just like the Dems!
-KT
It's '98 all over again. They have no fallback by this point except arguing the meaning of "is."
| 311 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:44:12am |
| 312 |
kirkspencer Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:45:54am |
re: #304 blueraven
Romney's statements by ruling
Click on the ruling to see all of Romney's statements for that ruling.True30 (16%)(30)
Mostly True26 (14%)(26)
Half True53 (28%)(53)
Mostly False32 (17%)(32)
False31 (16%)(31)
Pants on Fire17 (9%
30% true
42% falseObama's statements by ruling
Click on the ruling to see all of Obama's statements for that ruling.True98 (22%)(98)
Mostly True102 (23%)(102)
Half True116 (26%)(116)
Mostly False54 (12%)(54)
False63 (14%)(63)
Pants on Fire7 (2%
45% true
28% falseRomney is upside down on truthfulness
*eliminating the stupid half true rating which is stupid and just about equal
Sorry, I don't care. Oh, yes, Romney lied more than Obama. But I don't trust politifact's ratings -- not when careful review of the underlying 'why' tends to show a lot of false equivalence and contextual disconnection.
| 313 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:46:11am |
re: #296 Killgore Trout
Probably lots of people. That's why the line of attack is flawed.Think progress also likes to go through Republican tax filings looking for "shorts" on the economy. Most (rich) people have them in their portfolios as part of a common hedge strategy. Same with Off shore money, investments in China or an oil company with some connection to Iran, or whatever. Politicians are rich guys. Both D's and R's have these investments. We pretend it's outrageous when one side does it, then somehow magically different when the our side does it. Ultimately it's a self defeating strategy because it's so obviously hypocritical.
Well said, Killgore.
Sorry I was gone, folks. I had to get some breakfast then I had a phone interview. The latter went well, landing me a in-person interview next week.
| 314 |
blueraven Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:46:11am |
re: #309 Dark_Falcon
Mitt Romney does not use a dog whistle. No point to it, since no dog will come to him when called.
///
They wont come to Obama either. //
| 315 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:46:32am |
Let me see if I got this right...
Paul Ryan does not represent Mitt Romney on most issues.
Joe Biden however represents Barack Obama on all issues.
Make sense?
| 316 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:46:32am |
re: #309 Dark_Falcon
What do you think about Corsi being invited to join Romney's press group today?
Why would Romney associate with such a contemptible scumbag?
| 317 |
Varek Raith Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:47:32am |
Romney says Obama waited 14 days to call Libya attack terror
Politifarce Rating: Half-true.
Lolwhut.
| 318 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:47:52am |
re: #316 Obdicut
What do you think about Corsi being invited to join Romney's press group today?
Why would Romney associate with such a contemptible scumbag?
Pam gets airsick.
| 319 |
Targetpractice Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:48:33am |
re: #317 Varek Raith
Romney says Obama waited 14 days to call Libya attack terror
Politifarce Rating: Half-true.
Lolwhut.
He didn't explicitly say "terrorism"! "Act of terror" doesn't count!
| 320 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:48:39am |
re: #316 Obdicut
What do you think about Corsi being invited to join Romney's press group today?
Why would Romney associate with such a contemptible scumbag?
But Helen Thomas!
//
| 321 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:48:55am |
I just got this pic as an 'inspirational message'. Just good clean fun:
| 322 |
blueraven Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:48:57am |
re: #312 kirkspencer
Sorry, I don't care. Oh, yes, Romney lied more than Obama. But I don't trust politifact's ratings -- not when careful review of the underlying 'why' tends to show a lot of false equivalence and contextual disconnection.
I dont care either. Just showing KT is he wants to show Mitt as a truth teller, based on politifact, he is barking up the wrong tree.
| 323 |
Varek Raith Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:49:16am |
re: #319 Targetpractice
Even dumber.
Our ruling
Romney said it took the president 14 days before he called the Libya attack terror.
In fact, Obama described it in those terms the day after the attack. But in the days that followed, neither he nor all the members of his administration spoke consistently on the subject. There were many suggestions that the attack was part of demonstrations over an American-made video that disparaged Islam.
We rate the statement Half True.
| 324 |
lawhawk Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:49:24am |
re: #300 Only The Lurker Knows
If you or any mutual fund own Apple, then you most certainly have investments in, or relating to, China. One of Apple's main suppliers is FoxConn, which just got dinged for underage employees in violation of Chinese law. Their production facilities include those located in China, and if you dig deep enough, you'll find that many companies that are domestic to the US have overseas production operations in China.
FoxConn also supplies MSFT and HP.
| 326 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:49:59am |
re: #316 Obdicut
What do you think about Corsi being invited to join Romney's press group today?
Why would Romney associate with such a contemptible scumbag?
Huh? Where's that story from?
| 328 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:50:26am |
France is dangerous!
.@utaustinliberal Ann Romney compares her boys being Mormon missionaries to soldiers serving in wars. Are you fucking kidding me? #TheView— SpreadTheWord (@word_34) October 18, 2012
| 329 |
Targetpractice Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:51:10am |
re: #323 Varek Raith
Even dumber.
Or, in other words, there's no way that the attack could have been motivated by the video. Gotta love that "either/or" logic they're operating with.
| 330 |
AK-47% Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:51:10am |
re: #323 Varek Raith
Even dumber.
"In fact, Obama described it in those terms the day after the attack. But in the days that followed, neither he nor all the members of his administration spoke consistently on the subject. There were many suggestions that the attack was part of demonstrations over an American-made video that disparaged Islam."
In other words, Obama didn't froth at the mouth and call for Counter-Jihad With Extreme Prejudice.
| 331 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:51:23am |
| 332 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:51:26am |
Jerome Corsi of World Net Daily is traveling with the Romney press corps today, reports @dylanbyers: politi.co/VblxGr— POLITICO (@politico) October 17, 2012
| 333 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:52:05am |
re: #328 Sheila Broflovski
France is dangerous!
[Embedded content]
Mitt went to France. That doesn't mean all his sons did.
| 334 |
The Mongoose Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:52:08am |
re: #326 Dark_Falcon
Huh? Where's that story from?
It's true, but it's a non-story. He's not working for Romney, he's on the press plane as the reporter for WorldNetDaily. WND isn't my cup of tea, but they cover the presidential race.
| 335 |
Varek Raith Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:52:08am |
Politiderp.
No longer a fact checking group.
They now prefer editorializing.
| 336 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:52:13am |
re: #326 Dark_Falcon
Huh? Where's that story from?
[Link: www.politico.com...]
Jerome Corsi, the political writer and conspiracy theorist, is traveling with the Mitt Romney press corps today.
Corsi, 66, writes for World Net Daily and is the author of several anti-Obama books, including Where's the Birth Certificate? The Case that Barack Obama is not Eligible to be President.
Asked why he was traveling with the Romney campaign, Corsi told POLITICO, "I am a Senior Staff Reporter for WND covering the campaign."
Romney campain press secretary Andrea Saul did not respond to a request for comment.
| 337 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:52:13am |
Obama Nation Author Jerome Corsi's Racist History Exposed
These are good times for Jerome Corsi. Already notorious for his factually challenged book-length takedown of 2004 Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry, Unfit For Command, the...
| 338 |
AK-47% Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:52:46am |
re: #328 Sheila Broflovski
France is dangerous!
Ann Romney compares her boys being Mormon missionaries to soldiers serving in wars.
Onward, Mormon soldiers!
| 339 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:53:30am |
re: #323 Varek Raith
Even dumber.
Wut? Really, it's simple to me. Romney claimed that the president waited two weeks to call it a terrorist attack. The president in fact did so the day after it happened. Romney did not tell the truth. It's completely false what Romney said.
| 340 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:53:39am |
| 341 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:55:02am |
re: #331 HappyWarrior
[Link: www.politico.com...]
Politico.
I wonder if Romney even knows, I'm sure he didn't make the decision allowing Corsi aboard. Still, that's only a partial excuse and Corsi should be removed from the campaign plane posthaste. Preferably while the plane is at 30,000 feet.
/That last sentence was said entirely in jest.
| 342 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:55:06am |
Really, I'm sure being a Mormon missionary isn't easy but comparing it to being a soldier serving in a war? Get some perspective.
| 343 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:56:22am |
re: #342 HappyWarrior
Really, I'm sure being a Mormon missionary isn't easy but comparing it to being a soldier serving in a war? Get some perspective.
Can you imagine trying to persuade a Frenchman to give up drinking wine?
| 344 |
The Mongoose Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:56:27am |
re: #341 Dark_Falcon
I wonder if Romney even knows, I'm sure he didn't make the decision allowing Corsi aboard. Still, that's only a partial excuse and Corsi should be removed from the campaign plane posthaste. Preferably while the plane is at 30,000 feet.
/That last sentence was said entirely in jest.
I don't know. Picking and choosing who to give reporting credentials to is a tough one. Letting bad people cover the race is the only way to ensure that good people will also get to cover it. First amendment and all. Still, I wouldn't want Corsi anywhere near me either.
| 345 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:56:29am |
re: #341 Dark_Falcon
I wonder if Romney even knows, I'm sure he didn't make the decision allowing Corsi aboard. Still, that's only a partial excuse and Corsi should be removed from the campaign plane posthaste. Preferably while the plane is at 30,000 feet.
/That last sentence was said entirely in jest.
I doubt he made the decision personally either but really says a lot to me about his campaign that they'd let someone like him aboard.
| 346 |
A Mom Anon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:56:36am |
re: #338 AK-47%
These people are shameless. They are so used to never being challenged when they say ANYTHING they have no filters at all. Which I guess is a good thing for people paying attention. I would LOVE for her to say that to a veteran's face,or in a room full of veteran's families. I don't think she'd be quite ready for that reaction.
| 347 |
wrenchwench Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:57:15am |
re: #341 Dark_Falcon
I wonder if Romney even knows, I'm sure he didn't make the decision allowing Corsi aboard. Still, that's only a partial excuse and Corsi should be removed from the campaign plane posthaste. Preferably while the plane is at 30,000 feet.
/That last sentence was said entirely in jest.
It had to be someone close to Romney, and if Romney is being Presidential, he'll take responsibility. Don't deny him that opportunity.
| 348 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:57:24am |
re: #324 lawhawk
Add this to the long list of why i can never run for high office-
A couple of my IRA's are in aggressive mutual funds. Calamos Income & earnings fund. It's energy & precious metals intensive. So I'm a bad man for investing in energy companies with offshore holdings and massive profits.
I don't manage the fund obviously but I chose it. worse, I'd not apologize for it.
| 349 |
The Mongoose Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:58:28am |
re: #348 Daniel Ballard
Add this to the long list of why i can never run for high office-
A couple of my IRA's are in aggressive mutual funds. Calamos Income & earnings fund. It's energy & precious metals intensive. So I'm a bad man for investing in energy companies with offshore holdings and massive profits.I don't manage the fund obviously but I chose it. worse, I'd not apologize for it.
Nor should you. Nor should this ever harm your chances of running for office. Last I checked it's still a free country with a free market.
| 350 |
Varek Raith Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:58:39am |
Granholm says Romney's response to auto crisis was 'Let Detroit go bankrupt'
Politifarce Rating: Half-true.
Our ruling
Granholm accused Romney of saying "Let Detroit go bankrupt." The line, a popular Democratic talking point, suggested that Romney wanted to let the auto companies go out of business.
That was the headline, which he did not write, and he was not suggesting the auto companies should go belly-up. But he did advocate a managed bankruptcy that would produce carmakers with lower labor costs and products that could compete better in the marketplace.
We rate the statement Half True.
UPDATE: After we published this item, readers alerted us to a CBS TV interview where Romney addressed the "go bankrupt" question and he expanded on some of the things he mentioned in the op-ed about the need for a managed bankruptcy.
Romney stood behind the title of his op-ed, "Let Detroit go bankrupt," but said his main point was to oppose government handouts with no strings attached and no demand that the automakers break away from the costs that were dragging them down. Bankruptcy was the way to make the necessary changes and would not be a liquidation.
Romney did use the words about letting Detroit go bankrupt but his meaning was more nuanced and he emphasized that he was not referring to liquidation. Our ruling does not change.
No mention that a managed bankruptcy was IMPOSSIBLE in the case of the autoidustry. What a bunch of hacks.
| 351 |
Mocking Jay Thu, Oct 18, 2012 8:58:55am |
RT @ap New York federal appeals court becomes second in nation to strike down Defense of Marriage Act: apne.ws/RJAQ5U
— Andrew Kaczynski (@BuzzFeedAndrew) October 18, 2012
| 352 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:00:19am |
re: #344 The Mongoose
Letting bad people cover the race is the only way to ensure that good people will also get to cover it.
Explain the logic of this sentence, please.
| 353 |
wrenchwench Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:00:50am |
Mexican Mitt is tweeting up a storm this morning.
THE MAIL CAME, AND I JUST GOT THE VICTORIA SECRETS BINDER— Mexican Mitt Romneez (@MexicanMitt) October 18, 2012
| 354 |
makeitstop Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:00:51am |
Hey, look! A super-PAC being put to a (relatively) good use!
New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg said yesterday he will spend as much as $15 million in the next three weeks to help moderate congressional candidates and back state ballot measures to legalize same-sex marriage.
Bloomberg’s money will be distributed through a new super- political action committee called Independence USA and will be used to fund television, radio and Internet ads and direct mail campaigns, said Howard Wolfson, a New York deputy mayor who is taking a leave of absence to oversee the super-PAC.
| 355 |
Mocking Jay Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:00:59am |
MY VIEJA ANN JUST SAID ALL THE ROMNEY MEN HAVE SERVED OUR (RELIGION) COUNTRY. THANK US FOR OUR SERVICE. NOW. #patriots
— Mexican Mitt Romneez (@MexicanMitt) October 18, 2012
| 356 |
Varek Raith Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:01:01am |
re: #344 The Mongoose
Oh please. If this were a left wing loon you'd be all over it.
| 357 |
sagehen Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:01:05am |
re: #296 Killgore Trout
Probably lots of people. That's why the line of attack is flawed.Think progress also likes to go through Republican tax filings looking for "shorts" on the economy. Most (rich) people have them in their portfolios as part of a common hedge strategy. Same with Off shore money, investments in China or an oil company with some connection to Iran, or whatever. Politicians are rich guys. Both D's and R's have these investments. We pretend it's outrageous when one side does it, then somehow magically different when the our side does it. Ultimately it's a self defeating strategy because it's so obviously hypocritical.
Uh huh.
The Obama's money is about half in an index funds, the rest in T-Bills and Treasuries.
[Link: finance.yahoo.com...]
[Link: finance.yahoo.com...]
| 358 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:01:40am |
re: #348 Daniel Ballard
This is actually kind of interesting to me.
Do you think that owning shares in those companies, at whatever remove, carries with it any responsibility for the behavior of the companies that you're part-owner of?
| 359 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:02:33am |
re: #357 sagehen
Uh huh.
The Obama's money is about half in an index funds, the rest in T-Bills and Treasuries.
[Link: finance.yahoo.com...]
[Link: finance.yahoo.com...]
And the Romney tax returns are where? We don't even know the extent of Mitt Romney's investments. Meanwhile he's blowing smoke about China.
| 360 |
lawhawk Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:02:48am |
University of Phoenix is shutting down 115 of its locations nationally, which is good for students thinking of going to college and being bamboozled by degrees that aren't worth the price of admission, but it also means that there will be jobs lost at those locations.
University of Phoenix currently has about 328,000 students, down from a peak of more than 400,000. Following the closures, it will be left with 112 locations in 36 states, the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico.
The announcement comes as enrollments overall in the for-profit sector are declining after years of rapid growth, even as enrollment in other sectors of higher education rises. Recent federal figures showed enrollment in for-profits fell 2.9 percent in 2011. The sector has faced tighter regulations and more pressure to enroll students who have a better chance of graduating.
Facts show that it takes far longer to graduate from the for-profit colleges like University of Phoenix, far longer to find job placement, and act as little more than diploma mills.
And college student debt continues rising, and corporate executives don't think there will be enough high paying jobs domestically to support in-bound college grads in coming years.
| 361 |
Varek Raith Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:03:03am |
re: #357 sagehen
Uh huh.
The Obama's money is about half in an index funds, the rest in T-Bills and Treasuries.
[Link: finance.yahoo.com...]
[Link: finance.yahoo.com...]
KT - 0
Facts - 1
| 362 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:03:06am |
#Romney #Birthers logo. #p2 #tlot #Obama #ObamaBiden2012 Jerome Corsi is riding the Romney plane. twitter.com/Gus_802/status...— Gus (@Gus_802) October 18, 2012
| 363 |
The Mongoose Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:03:36am |
re: #356 Varek Raith
Oh please. If this were a left wing loon you'd be all over it.
No, I wouldn't. I'm fairly big on freedom of the press and I don't love the idea of picking who covers stuff like this based on ideology. If DemocraticUnderground or some such site wanted to cover Obama, I would hope they'd get credentialed too, even if they sent a terrible representative.
| 364 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:03:45am |
I'd actually respect Romney more if he just declared he was a birther. He already panders to their mindset.
| 365 |
Varek Raith Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:04:41am |
Here's a thought.
Kick WND off the plane.
RADICAL!
| 366 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:04:59am |
re: #363 The Mongoose
No, I wouldn't. I'm fairly big on freedom of the press and I don't love the idea of picking who covers stuff like this based on ideology.
Um, it's not ideology, it's that Corsi is a conspiracy theorist who's a terrible journalist and a race-baiting asshole.
You're not really making any sense.
| 367 |
makeitstop Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:05:26am |
re: #365 Varek Raith
Here's a thought.
Kick WND off the plane.
RADICAL!
The resultant howling would be unbearable.
| 368 |
Joanne Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:05:43am |
re: #16 JamesWI
Story is about a month old, but relevant given that Tagg Romney is back in the news:
This whole fucking family is despicable. Rotten and evil.
And, unfortunately, possibly the next first family. The thought makes you ill, doesn't it?
| 369 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:08:10am |
re: #365 Varek Raith
Here's a thought.
Kick WND off the plane.
RADICAL!
It depends. At least this way America gets to see where Mitt Romney is coming from and who he's willing to embrace to get into a position of power. With Corsi it's pretty clear that Romney is not only embracing birthers but embracing racist Americans. That part is clear.
| 370 |
wrenchwench Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:09:40am |
Mitt Romney: "Blame parents for violent children." Tagg Romney: "I want to punch the President." UniteBlue.com— Zach Green (@140elect) October 18, 2012
| 371 |
Varek Raith Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:09:54am |
Jerome Corsi is a birther.
He thinks Obama is secretly gay and had previous partners murdered to keep it a secret.
He thinks Obama's ring is some sort of Islamic conspiracy.
Yep, perfect for covering the current gop.
/BAM!
| 372 |
The Mongoose Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:10:35am |
re: #361 Varek Raith
KT - 0
Facts - 1
That Vanguard 500 fund the Obamas hold has Apple as its largest holding. Apple invests massively in Chinese manufacturing. KT is right. The rest of the fund is swimming in all kinds of left-wing boogeymen: Exxon-Mobil, Phillip Morris, Wal-Mart & CitiGroup come to mind.
| 373 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:11:04am |
| 374 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:11:17am |
re: #371 Varek Raith
Jerome Corsi is a birther.
He thinks Obama is secretly gay and had previous partners murdered to keep it a secret.
He thinks Obama's ring is some sort of Islamic conspiracy.
Yep, perfect for covering the current gop.
/BAM!
Exactly. Corsi represents a third of Republican voters.
| 375 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:11:33am |
re: #371 Varek Raith
Jerome Corsi is a birther.
He thinks Obama is secretly gay and had previous partners murdered to keep it a secret.
He thinks Obama's ring is some sort of Islamic conspiracy.
Yep, perfect for covering the current gop.
/BAM!
These guys...
@b_sharpc @ericboehlert @michellemalkin The ones married to this guy? twitter.com/Gus_802/status...— Gus (@Gus_802) October 18, 2012
| 376 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:11:35am |
I'd love to hear from anyone that thinks Romney got screwed on any of the negative ratings on this page.
This excerpt is right under the "mostly true" graphic pon Chinese investments bu Obama. if you click it you get all the necessary details to make up your own mind. .
Didn’t make them, but his pension fund did
from the click
"Atwood emphasized that neither Obama nor any other participant in the retirement system has anything to do with selecting investments for the fund."
| 377 |
Mocking Jay Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:12:00am |
| 378 |
Varek Raith Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:12:00am |
I changed my mind.
I wholly support WND on a Plane.
Rated PG-DERP
| 379 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:12:10am |
re: #372 The Mongoose
That Vanguard 500 fund the Obamas hold has Apple as its largest holding. Apple invests massively in Chinese manufacturing. KT is right. The rest of the fund is swimming in all kinds of left-wing boogeymen: Exxon-Mobil, Phillip Morris, Wal-Mart & CitiGroup come to mind.
I own some of that Vanguard fund too. I highly recommend it.
| 380 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:12:44am |
I just discovered the origin of the Romney campaign logo: twitter.com/BestLeftSaidOp...— Better Left Said (@BestLeftSaidOps) October 18, 2012
| 381 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:13:08am |
re: #350 Varek Raith
Huh?
BK is not impossible in that industry or any other. States can't do it, but any business can. Many have that still exist today.
| 382 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:13:37am |
If you equate Obama's pension fund to Romney's investments and connection with Bain you just might be a bozo. Full stop.
| 383 |
Mocking Jay Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:14:02am |
re: #381 Daniel Ballard
Huh?
BK is not impossible in that industry or any other. States can't do it, but any business can. Many have that still exist today.
The point is that private money wasn't available.
| 384 |
Joanne Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:14:19am |
re: #68 A Mom Anon
I know this makes me into a filthy commie,but when I see multi-millionaires and billionaires whining about money I really begin thinking a cap on the amount of personal wealth someone can acquire looks like a wonderful idea.
Or maybe just give the fuckers tax incentives to invest in workers and facilities in THIS country. Don't want to pay taxes on that huge ass amount of cash you got for being so"talented" this year? INVEST IN THE WORKERS WHO MADE YOUR COMPANY SUCCESSFUL. Put that money back into your company instead of rolling around in a pile of it every evening when you get home. Then you won't have such an "outrageous"amount of taxes to pay,you'll attract loyal workers and keep them,and your company will grow and have a good reputation. Yeah,that sounds just awful.
When taxes are high, that's exactly what they do. When taxes are low, they offshore the money into the Caymens and Switzerland. The wealthy do not shop like the 100 million in the "middle class." And they certainly do not invest unless there is a reason to. Higher taxes is a reason to.
| 385 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:14:31am |
re: #382 Gus
If you equate Obama's pension fund to Romney's investments and connection with Bain you just might be a bozo. Full stop.
Can we have PLAGIARIST with the Romney logo, please? (Romika shoes and "Friday Night Lights")
| 386 |
garhighway Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:14:42am |
On the Wal-Mart discussion above (to which I am late).
As a long-suffering managerial employee of a big company, some observations:
1> You pay the rank and file enough money so that your workforce is as stable and productive as you need it to be, and no more. If you overpay for those people (meaning you pay more than the market bears) you are leaving money on the table. That's money you could have used to invest in new technology, products or locations, or money you could have returned to your owners, the shareholders. That analysis is the management 101 view of the world, and it is, I think, the right way of looking at things.
2> Some factors can change the analysis. If you have a union, then the determination of wages and benefits moves to that setting. Obviously, workers that bargain collectively have more leverage and do better. That's why workers (when thinking rationally) like unions and management hates them. (Management also hates them because they handcuff them in other ways, but that's beyond the scope of this.)
3> Or you can have governement intervention. In the US, that's primarily minimium wage and FLSA laws. In other countries, you can have mandated quasi-union structures that get involved as well. (An aside: my company will never add staff in Germany or France unless we are absolutely sure we want the person for life, because when you hire there you hire for life. Obviously, the result of that is that we will, over time, locate fewer jobs there than we would otherwise.)
4> On CEO pay, there is no doubt that at the high end of the economy the CEO pay process is broken. The way it is determined is through boards hiring consultants who know that their true mission is to paper whatever it is the board wants to do. But the board is in an interesting spot. CEOs are not fungible. There really are some gifted people out there who can make a positive difference in the company's results that is far, far greater than whatever they cost. (Al Mullaley at Ford. Steve Jobs at Apple. To name two.) If you are on the BOD, that's who you want to hire. Paying that person a lot of coin is probably a good move: it will return way more money than its cost. But finding that person is hard, and if you think you have one, the last thing you want to happen is to lose that person over a pay issue. So boards play some defense and overpay.
5> Below the CEO and above the rank and file is a world where there are no unions, where everyone (or almost everyone) is an employee-at-will, and where people are constantly measuring their self-percieved worth versus what they are getting paid and what they could get if they went across the street. How robust a market there is for an individual's skills and talents will determine how they behave. Most companies behave rationally there: they apply the same test to those people that they do to the rank and file: pay enough that turnover is acceptably low and they keep their top performers, but don't overpay.
The key thing here is that money you spend on staff is money you don't have for other things, and you therefore have to be careful and wise about how you spend it. It is, at the end of the day, the shareholder's money, and if you piss it away they get very unhappy.
| 387 |
Varek Raith Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:14:46am |
re: #383 Mocking Jay
The point is that private money wasn't available.
Because the private market saw the auto industry as the Titanic.
| 388 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:16:12am |
re: #376 Daniel Ballard
I'd love to hear from anyone that thinks Romney got screwed on any of the negative ratings on this page.
This excerpt is right under the "mostly true" graphic pon Chinese investments bu Obama. if you click it you get all the necessary details to make up your own mind. .
Didn’t make them, but his pension fund did
from the click
"Atwood emphasized that neither Obama nor any other participant in the retirement system has anything to do with selecting investments for the fund."
I did read an interesting critique from a friend about one of the ratings for Mitt's statements regarding drilling permits on federal land which politifact rated partially true. Apparently Politifact only counted land based permits and neglected to account for offshore drilling so Mitt's statement might have been more true than the factcheckers gave him credit for.
| 389 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:16:15am |
re: #386 garhighway
Where do ethics enter into this? If you have people willing to work for a starvation wage, do you feel it's ethical to employ them at that wage in order to return high profits to the owners?
| 390 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:16:55am |
re: #387 Varek Raith
That's how Zales was viewed by the jewelry industry. BK twice, and still in biz. They got out from under crushing costs of too many stores in the same malls as they bought competitors.
| 391 |
Eventual Carrion Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:18:14am |
re: #330 AK-47%
[snip]"
In other words, Obama didn't froth at the mouth and call for Counter-Jihad With Extreme Prejudice.
A crusade if you will.
| 392 |
Joanne Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:18:34am |
re: #79 Dark_Falcon
The people who create the business and its model are the job creators. Without them, there would not be a business for the public to patronize.
And without disposable income, no one will be able to patronize that business, which means it will go under.
Walmart won't because for many people they can't afford anything else.
Ford knew he had to pay his workers enough to support the product they make. What happens when American's can't afford to buy the shit Walmart sells because Walmart doesn't pay them enough to afford it?
| 393 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:18:43am |
re: #380 Sheila Broflovski
[Embedded content]
@bestleftsaidops Bullshit!One more left-wing smear.#donkswillsayanything
— Kurt Akemann (@Dark_Falcon7) October 18, 2012
| 394 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:19:58am |
re: #389 Obdicut
Where do ethics enter into this? If you have people willing to work for a starvation wage, do you feel it's ethical to employ them at that wage in order to return high profits to the owners?
Not only (business) ethical, but a duty to the shareholders that can sometimes be enforced through civil law. (Now I go looking for a corporate law guy.)
| 395 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:20:22am |
re: #385 Sheila Broflovski
Can we have PLAGIARIST with the Romney logo, please? (Romika shoes and "Friday Night Lights")
#Romney #Plagiarist logo. #p2 #tlot #Obama #ObamaBiden2012 twitter.com/Gus_802/status...— Gus (@Gus_802) October 18, 2012
| 396 |
sagehen Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:22:06am |
re: #372 The Mongoose
That Vanguard 500 fund the Obamas hold has Apple as its largest holding. Apple invests massively in Chinese manufacturing. KT is right. The rest of the fund is swimming in all kinds of left-wing boogeymen: Exxon-Mobil, Phillip Morris, Wal-Mart & CitiGroup come to mind.
Which is totally just like going over to China to inspect a factory, liking the barbed wire and triple bunk beds where the 12-hours-a-day workers live, and deciding to buy the factory in its entirety.
| 397 |
The Mongoose Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:22:17am |
re: #394 Decatur Deb
Not only (business) ethical, but a duty to the shareholders that can sometimes be enforced through civil law. (Now I go looking for a corporate law guy.)
In theory this works itself out. The worst employees might get stuck at that wage, but the business down the street will pay more to get the better employees and provide a better service, which leads to the first business raising rates, etc. Supply and demand for labor balance out eventually.
In practice? Not as simple as that, obviously.
| 398 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:22:46am |
re: #395 Gus
I don't really think that red-white-and-blue Rs are that weird a thing to find a few examples of. Doubt that there's anything to that.
| 399 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:23:46am |
re: #398 Obdicut
I don't really think that red-white-and-blue Rs are that weird a thing to find a few examples of. Doubt that there's anything to that.
I know. Just having fun.
| 400 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:23:54am |
re: #398 Obdicut
I don't really think that red-white-and-blue Rs are that weird a thing to find a few examples of. Doubt that there's anything to that.
Didn't Reebok have something close to that?
| 401 |
Mocking Jay Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:24:13am |
@bestleftsaidops Bullshit!One more left-wing smear.#donkswillsayanything
— Kurt Akemann (@Dark_Falcon7) October 18, 2012
Your own candidate will say anything...
| 402 |
dragonath Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:24:15am |
re: #393 Dark_Falcon
You're worried about THAT and not Jerome Corsi?
| 403 |
The Mongoose Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:24:18am |
re: #398 Obdicut
I don't really think that red-white-and-blue Rs are that weird a thing to find a few examples of. Doubt that there's anything to that.
It really would be funny if the campaign swiped the logo off some random shoe company though.
| 404 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:24:23am |
re: #397 The Mongoose
In theory this works itself out. The worst employees might get stuck at that wage, but the business down the street will pay more to get the better employees and provide a better service, which leads to the first business raising rates, etc. Supply and demand for labor balance out eventually.
In practice? Not as simple as that, obviously.
Except when the economy has been trashed, HB visas are wholesaled, and the pressure for ever more prole reproduction is maintained by law.
| 405 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:24:37am |
Politifact calls out Obama for his BS about Mitt Romney and Arizona SB1070:
Barack Obama says Mitt Romney called the Arizona immigration law a 'model for the nation.'
In the second presidential debate at Hofstra University, President Barack Obama repeated a claim that he and many of his allies have repeated for months.
Referring to a high-profile Arizona immigration law known as S.B. 1070, Obama said Romney "called the Arizona law a model for the nation."
Soon after Obama made that claim, Romney fired back. "I did not say that the Arizona law was a model for the nation in that aspect," Romney said at the debate. "I said that the E-Verify portion of the Arizona law, which is the portion of the law which says that employers could be able to determine whether someone is here illegally or not illegally, that that was a model for the nation."
They both can’t be right. So which one is correct?
SNIP
Our ruling
Obama said Mitt Romney "called the Arizona law a model for the nation." That statement mischaracterizes Romney’s salute to Arizona’s mandate that employers electronically verify the legal status of employees, which was passed in 2007 and was not included in S.B. 1070. We rate the statement False.
Bolding in original, italics added by me.
| 406 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:25:04am |
re: #397 The Mongoose
In theory this works itself out. The worst employees might get stuck at that wage, but the business down the street will pay more to get the better employees and provide a better service, which leads to the first business raising rates, etc. Supply and demand for labor balance out eventually.
In practice? Not as simple as that, obviously.
Er, even in your 'at best' theory, then anyone who's on the bottom end of the productivity scale has to endure shitty workplace conditions and inferior wages.
| 407 |
wrenchwench Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:25:22am |
Only rich kids get to leave the crust. Of course, really rich kids have someone cut it off for them...
Hanging out pre debate.You may notice that @craigromney is not a big crust eater. twitter.com/joshromney/sta...— Josh Romney (@joshromney) October 16, 2012
| 408 |
garhighway Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:25:32am |
Obdi: (I'd have done this as a "reply", but that button is not working right now.)
As relates to wages and hours (and some other issues) we let the society within we function tell us what is acceptable or unacceptable. They do that through their laws. They set minimum wages and hours, and we abide by that. I think those laws are a good thing. I support them, and in general, I'd like to see them set at higher values. But if I institute that unilaterally, I put my company at a disadvantage to its peers, and I cannot do that.
| 409 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:25:42am |
re: #404 Decatur Deb
Except when the economy has been trashed, HB visas are wholesaled, and the pressure for ever more prole reproduction is maintained by law.
I don't recall America having laws to that effect.
| 410 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:26:02am |
re: #405 Dark_Falcon
Are you going to respond to the fact that your candidate's press team have invited Corsi to join him and cover the campaign?
| 411 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:27:05am |
re: #386 garhighway
1> You pay the rank and file enough money so that your workforce is as stable and productive as you need it to be, and no more. If you overpay for those people (meaning you pay more than the market bears) you are leaving money on the table. That's money you could have used to invest in new technology, products or locations, or money you could have returned to your owners, the shareholders. That analysis is the management 101 view of the world, and it is, I think, the right way of looking at things.
In the 2000's, the big trend was relocating customer service call centers overseas as staff in those countries were paid far less than Americans doing the same job. This has caused a huge backlash among consumers, to the point that some companies have now re-opened US call centers. If you are going to plummet in customer satisfaction because of what is otherwise an economical business move for the shareholder, you are going to lose revenue.
| 412 |
erik_t Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:27:16am |
re: #409 Dark_Falcon
I don't recall America having laws to that effect.
Contraception: how does it work?
Or more relevantly...
Contraception: how do we outlaw it?
| 413 |
The Mongoose Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:27:56am |
re: #406 Obdicut
Er, even in your 'at best' theory, then anyone who's on the bottom end of the productivity scale has to endure shitty workplace conditions and inferior wages.
Yes. This happens even with a minimum wage, of course, but it would get much worse. The trade-off is that more people would be employed, but it wouldn't be pleasant employment.
| 414 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:27:57am |
re: #409 Dark_Falcon
I don't recall America having laws to that effect.
Ever heard of Santorum? Used to be a TPGOP wunderkid.
| 415 |
makeitstop Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:28:12am |
re: #410 Obdicut
Are you going to respond to the fact that your candidate's press team have invited Corsi to join him and cover the campaign?
Short answer: No.
| 416 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:28:43am |
re: #408 garhighway
Obdi: (I'd have done this as a "reply", but that button is not working right now.)
As relates to wages and hours (and some other issues) we let the society within we function tell us what is acceptable or unacceptable. They do that through their laws. They set minimum wages and hours, and we abide by that. I think those laws are a good thing. I support them, and in general, I'd like to see them set at higher values. But if I institute that unilaterally, I put my company at a disadvantage to its peers, and I cannot do that.
Okay. Just making sure that you acknowledge that you're setting up corporations as completely non-ethical entities, so that society has to police them heavily, regulate them very closely, etc. I completely agree that if there's a very, very strong government framework to regulate behavior, that then within that strict set of rules competition works out.
However, we're very far from that in the US. So we do have a lot of problems of corporations acting unethically and completely unchecked by law, either due to the lack of the law or the lack of enforcement.
| 417 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:29:35am |
#Romney #SouthernStrategy logo. #p2 #tlot #Obama #ObamaBiden2012 twitter.com/Gus_802/status...— Gus (@Gus_802) October 18, 2012
| 418 |
dragonath Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:30:46am |
Also, it's almost totally irrelevant what Politifact thinks since Kris Kobach is Romney's immigration adviser. Come on man, no one heard howls of outrage from the Romney campaign when SB1070 was enacted.
| 419 |
kirkspencer Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:31:24am |
re: #408 garhighway
Obdi: (I'd have done this as a "reply", but that button is not working right now.)
As relates to wages and hours (and some other issues) we let the society within we function tell us what is acceptable or unacceptable. They do that through their laws. They set minimum wages and hours, and we abide by that. I think those laws are a good thing. I support them, and in general, I'd like to see them set at higher values. But if I institute that unilaterally, I put my company at a disadvantage to its peers, and I cannot do that.
So explain Costco?
See, yes you can set your wages unilaterally. You get higher employee loyalty and performance. Not least, you get it because it's more desirable and so you get to choose from the competition for the slot.
One of the major problems of high unemployment is how it kills this particular mechanism - that with so many people looking for jobs it's an employer's market. When the economy changes (and yes, I think it will), you'll see more pressure on places like Walmart to change - not out of the goodness of their hearts, but because their competition is getting the better workers (because they're getting what they pay for.)
| 420 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:32:23am |
re: #410 Obdicut
Are you going to respond to the fact that your candidate's press team have invited Corsi to join him and cover the campaign?
| 421 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:32:50am |
re: #405 Dark_Falcon
Romney said that all lawsuits against the bill should be dropped. That's unequivocal support for the bill.
| 422 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:33:12am |
re: #418 dragonath
It's relevant because Obama was lying.
| 423 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:33:30am |
re: #418 dragonath
Also, it's almost totally irrelevant what Politifact thinks since Kris Kobach is Romney's immigration adviser. Come on man, no one heard howls of outrage from the Romney campaign when SB1070 was enacted.
Really, we're to believe that Romney doesn't support laws like SB1070 on immigration and yet hires the guy who wrote the law to be his immigration adviser? Does Politfact take us for fools?
| 424 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:33:30am |
re: #416 Obdicut
Okay. Just making sure that you acknowledge that you're setting up corporations as completely non-ethical entities, so that society has to police them heavily, regulate them very closely, etc. I completely agree that if there's a very, very strong government framework to regulate behavior, that then within that strict set of rules competition works out.
However, we're very far from that in the US. So we do have a lot of problems of corporations acting unethically and completely unchecked by law, either due to the lack of the law or the lack of enforcement.
I am getting a whole bunch of SPAM postal election flyers from dubious entities representing special interests like Koch Bros. and Matty Moroun, urging voters to VOTE NO on proposals that will allow public employees to engage in collective bargaining, and VOTE YES on a proposal that requires a general election to build a new bridge that will be competition for Matty Moroun.
These guys send out mass mailings every freaking day, and their ads are all over the TV.
| 425 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:34:28am |
re: #420 Dark_Falcon
What does it say about Romney's campaign that they invited Corsi, to you? Do you think that Romney should apologize for inviting someone who's said such contemptible, racist, insane shit about our president to share his company?
| 426 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:34:48am |
"No one has ever asked to see my birth certificate..."
-- Mitt Romney
Mighty white of you Mitt
| 427 |
garhighway Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:35:15am |
Again, I apologise for not doing this as replies to the appropriate posts, but my browser is acting up.
1. If you are stuck in a lousy job you should have a powerful incentive to better your situation. Get more training. Learn new skills. Build value. And if you rlife situation is such that none of those things are available to you, then you are in a tough spot. But unless we are going to become about guaranteeing equality of outcomes and not just equality of opportunity, those sorts of outcomes will happen.
2. The overseas outsourcing example is illustrative: if that moves hurts the enterprise, them it was a mistake. As was noted above, some companies have done that and had to undo it because it hurt their bnusiness. That's good; good moves get rewarded and bad ones punished.
3. Reputational and legal risk weigh heavily on BODs these days. No rational company wants to behave in a way that endangers its franchise. So they need to behave in a way that is legal and reflects appropriately on the firm. But I am pretty sure that Wal-Mart (to go back to the initial example) thinks the payoff in reputational, PR or productivity benefits for giving every store employee a $2.00 per hour raise is insufficient compared to the cost. If they didn't think that, they would have done it by now.
| 428 |
Varek Raith Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:35:21am |
| 429 |
makeitstop Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:35:46am |
re: #422 Dark_Falcon
It's relevant because Obama was lying.
Says the man whose 'team' has built an entire campaign upon lies.
| 430 |
philosophus invidius Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:36:49am |
re: #405 Dark_Falcon
I call BS on Polifact. The question posed ended with: "But what about arresting? Should there be aggressive, seek them out, find them and arrest them as Sheriff Arpaio advocates?"
Romney answered: "You know, I think you see a model here in Arizona." And then goes on about E-verify.
He did NOT say: "No, but I do think there is an element of the law that is good."
If Romney wants to pander to his base by refusing to distance himself in any way from the law when specifically asked about the controversial parts, then he has to pay the price in the debate.
| 431 |
erik_t Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:38:22am |
re: #430 philosophus invidius
Regardless of their final 'rating', this is a massively inconsistent level of statement and context parsing on the part of Politifact.
| 432 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:38:23am |
re: #426 Gus
"No one has ever asked to see my birth certificate..."
-- Mitt RomneyMighty white of you Mitt
False. There are a few Mitt birthers out there who think he might have been born in Mexico.
| 433 |
dragonath Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:38:33am |
re: #422 Dark_Falcon
It's relevant because Obama was lying.
Oh wow. Were you gnashing your teeth when Romney got caught on his lie on LIbya? Do tell. Come the fuck on man, I haven't seen any daylight between Rush and Mitt on any issue this year. This is what you party believes. I had to put up hearing about it around people a year after it was enacted.
| 434 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:39:04am |
re: #432 Kragar
False. There are a few Mitt birthers out there who think he might have been born in Mexico.
I'm sure those are just parodies.
| 435 |
Mocking Jay Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:39:10am |
Romney advisor: "I would not ask our Marines to live with someone that's homosexual if we can possibly avoid it."mojo.ly/S5Wr7C
— Mother Jones (@MotherJones) October 18, 2012
Straight Marines have been living with gay marines since 1775.
| 436 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:39:29am |
re: #422 Dark_Falcon
It's relevant because Obama was lying.
He was asked about enforcement, and responded by saying that the Arizona bill was a model for the nation. He then talked about E-verify stuff. So in a very narrow, semantic sense, you can say that Obama said something incorrect, but Romney supports the bill, he has as his immigration adviser one of the main forces behind the bill-- a man of insanely extreme anti-immigrant positions-- and Romney has said all the challenges to the bill should be dropped.
This is a good example of how a narrow literal truth can be used to lie. Romney supports the bill entirely, so why would he not think it was a good model for the nation-- especially after he was asked a question about arrests and enforcement and responded by saying that there was a good model for that in Arizona?
| 437 |
philosophus invidius Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:41:01am |
re: #436 Obdicut
Romney supports the bill entirely, so why would he not think it was a good model for the nation
That way he can say whatever he wants depending on the audience.
| 438 |
Reverend Mother Ramallo Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:41:04am |
The bottom line is, If Mitt didn't like the guys work, he wouldn't have hired him to his staff.
Actions speak louder than words.
Especially when it comes to Mitt.
| 439 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:41:15am |
#Romney #BirthCertificate logo. #p2 #tlot #Obama #ObamaBiden2012 twitter.com/Gus_802/status...— Gus (@Gus_802) October 18, 2012
| 440 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:41:36am |
re: #435 Mocking Jay
Funniest part of this:
Conway, a vocal opponent of repealing the military's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy before and after he was succeeded by Gen. James Amos as Marine Commandant, elaborated on his logic in a press briefing at the Pentagon in August of 2010. "[W]e recruit a certain type of young American, pretty macho guy or gal, that is willing to go fight and perhaps die for their country," Conway said. "We sometimes ask Marines, you know, what is—what is their preference. And I can tell you that an overwhelming majority would like not to be roomed with a person who is openly homosexual."
Two things that are funny about this:
1) That macho guys are terrified of homosexuals and helpless to defend themselves from whatever those fearsome beasts might do
2) That butch women are highly anti-lesbian.
| 441 |
wrenchwench Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:42:26am |
re: #405 Dark_Falcon
Politifact calls out Obama for his BS about Mitt Romney and Arizona SB1070:
SNIP
Bolding in original, italics added by me.
re: #418 dragonath
Also, it's almost totally irrelevant what Politifact thinks since Kris Kobach is Romney's immigration adviser. Come on man, no one heard howls of outrage from the Romney campaign when SB1070 was enacted.
I'm going to be slightly redundant, but with emphasis.
Mitt Romney chose Kris Fucking Kobach as his adviser on immigration. Kris Fucking Kobach wrote SB1070. (The "co-author", Russell Fucking Pearce, is too stupid to have been much help, and holds no office now, because he was recalled. In Arizona. He was too much for Arizona. Think about what that means.)
Kris Kobach is one of the most blatantly racist elected Republicans in the US today. He's secretary of state in Kansas. Mitt Romney chose this piece of shit to be his adviser on immigration. That alone makes Mitt Romney a racist piece of shit in my eyes.
OK, I'm going to sip some tea and fix a bike now....
| 442 |
Mocking Jay Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:42:35am |
re: #440 Obdicut
Funniest part of this:
Two things that are funny about this:
1) That macho guys are terrified of homosexuals and helpless to defend themselves from whatever those fearsome beasts might do
2) That butch women are highly anti-lesbian.
I guess he never learned that there are, in fact, macho gay guys?
| 444 |
wrenchwench Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:43:06am |
re: #439 Gus
That's lovely! You do nice work.
| 445 |
The Mongoose Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:43:13am |
Morning Poll Update (Each line is an average of today's polls)
National - R49 O47
Ohio - O47 R45
Michigan - O44 R41
North Carolina - R52 O46
Connecticut - O51 R37
| 449 |
The Mongoose Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:44:49am |
re: #447 dragonath
An average of one poll each?
Except Ohio, so far. When I update it later there'll be more.
| 450 |
wrenchwench Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:45:04am |
| 451 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:45:41am |
re: #445 The Mongoose
Again: What the hell is your methodology? I really don't get the point of spamming this.
| 453 |
freetoken Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:45:59am |
re: #423 HappyWarrior
Does Politfact take us for fools?
Sort of.
Remember, Politifact is a unit of a publication, and said company does whatever it does simply to support itself. They tell you that the moon was made of Swiss cheese if that is what they needed to.
Following the ownership chain, apparently Politifact is owned by a "nonprofit" - Poynter. Poynter likes to position itself as a leader in journalism, and its outfits have won Pulitzers so the rest of the industry must recognize it for having some quality.
Yet... that doesn't mean they don't have a investment in making "news". Nonprofits come in all types - Bob Jones University for example, or even the US Army. The question to ask is what purpose does Politifact serve for Poynter.
Do Politifact's products really determine what is true in an Aristotelean (natural scientific) sense, or is what Politifact doing increasing web traffic at the Tampa Bay Times?
| 454 |
The Mongoose Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:46:10am |
re: #451 Obdicut
Again: What the hell is your methodology? I really don't get the point of spamming this.
Those are polls. There's no method. Feel free to ignore them.
| 456 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:46:53am |
I spent over 8 years in the USMC, and I worked with a few Marines I knew were homosexuals. The fact they had to hide it or face losing their careers is something the military should have been ashamed of.
| 457 |
wrenchwench Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:47:01am |
| 458 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:47:35am |
re: #454 The Mongoose
Those are polls. There's no method. Feel free to ignore them.
What polls, from where? How did you average them?
| 459 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:47:52am |
@rightwingwatch Here I thought traditional Christianity was against divorce let alone being an adulterer prior to divorce.— Gus (@Gus_802) October 18, 2012
| 460 |
makeitstop Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:48:01am |
re: #441 wrenchwench
Kris Kobach is one of the most blatantly racist elected Republicans in the US today. He's secretary of state in Kansas. Mitt Romney chose this piece of shit to be his adviser on immigration. That alone makes Mitt Romney a racist piece of shit in my eyes.
Let's not forget that Kobach floated the idea of tossing Obama off the presidential ballot in Kansas, on Birther grounds.
Romney + birther WND nut on plane + Kris Kobach = Birther candidate. QED.
| 461 |
AK-47% Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:49:20am |
"anti-colonialism" has nothing to dow ith the US colonies freeing themselves, it is a dog-whistle term intended to stir up images of Mau-Maus butchering white colonialists in Africa...
| 462 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:49:23am |
re: #458 Obdicut
What polls, from where? How did you average them?
Its the simple mathematical application of shut up.
| 463 |
wrenchwench Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:49:28am |
re: #460 makeitstop
Kris Kobach is one of the most blatantly racist elected Republicans in the US today. He's secretary of state in Kansas. Mitt Romney chose this piece of shit to be his adviser on immigration. That alone makes Mitt Romney a racist piece of shit in my eyes.
Let's not forget that Kobach floated the idea of tossing Obama off the presidential ballot in Kansas, on Birther grounds.
Romney + birther WND nut on plane + Kris Kobach = Birther candidate. QED.
Further proof of racist piece of shithood.
| 464 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:49:42am |
Ann Romney: "I walk into a room and I'm happy then Mitt dumps everything on me and I have to calm him down and stabilize him." OMG. #TheView— utaustinliberal (@utaustinliberal) October 18, 2012
| 465 |
engineer cat Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:49:53am |
re: #422 Dark_Falcon
It's relevant because Obama was lying.
i eanestly look forward to the day when it becomes "relevant" that republican polititians have been engaged in a massive and coordinated program of lying for many decades
only when and if that happens i will be interested in reciprocating from tge democratic side
| 466 |
The Mongoose Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:50:20am |
re: #458 Obdicut
What polls, from where? How did you average them?
I added the two Ohio polls from this morning together and divided by 2. Pretty advanced stuff.
All the others are just polls released today. The national poll is Rasmussen, the Ohio polls are Rasmussen and SurveyUSA, North Carolina is Rasmussen, Connecticut is UConn, and Michigan is Denno research.
| 467 |
A Mom Anon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:50:40am |
re: #368 Joanne (JustJay)
I'm still WTFing over that. Seems like the rest of the town really wasn't upset about it til Tagg got is knickers in a twist over it. How does a hospice degrade property values?
| 468 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:51:09am |
re: #358 Obdicut
This is actually kind of interesting to me.
Do you think that owning shares in those companies, at whatever remove, carries with it any responsibility for the behavior of the companies that you're part-owner of?
Since I chose the funds, and don't have a blind trust, I would expect an opponent to attack my investment choices, as humble as they are. My choice supports my income over the environment. And gold mines now have a bad reputation on a couple levels-environmental and worker safety/conditions. Of course I might have counter arguments but would they help? Not if the voters lean left.
| 469 |
erik_t Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:51:30am |
re: #464 Gus
@utaustinliberal Ann Romney: "I walk into a room and I'm happy then Mitt dumps everything on me and I have to calm him down and stabilize him." OMG. #TheView
Wait, what? Guy sounds unstable as shit.
| 470 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:51:34am |
re: #464 Gus
[Embedded content]
"And then the Chinese said they wouldn't pay the tariffs, and I think Putin called me a whiny baby!"
"There there, honey. Does Mitty want to lay his head in mommy's lap for a nice cry?"
"...Yeah."
| 471 |
lawhawk Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:51:39am |
Obdicut:
OWSers outside Trinity Church today:
#OWS outside Trinity Church in Lower Manhattan twitter.com/lawhawk/status...— lawhawk (@lawhawk) October 18, 2012
#OWS taking advantage of scaffolding in front of Trinity Church in Lower Manhattan twitter.com/lawhawk/status...— lawhawk (@lawhawk) October 18, 2012
It looks like they're taking advantage of the fact that Trinity Church is undergoing renovations so they have a scaffold set up that somewhat shields from the elements. I also saw that the usual shoe-shine guys were set up just north of the Church proper.
Oh, and if you ever get a chance to go inside the church, it's well worth it from an architectural/art standpoint. It's absolutely gorgeous inside.
And walking through its cemetery is a lesson in US history, with luminaries like Gallatin, Fulton, and Alexander Hamilton interred there.
| 473 |
Reverend Mother Ramallo Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:52:18am |
| 474 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:52:32am |
re: #467 A Mom Anon
I'm still WTFing over that. Seems like the rest of the town really wasn't upset about it til Tagg got is knickers in a twist over it. How does a hospice degrade property values?
No one wants stinky sick people in the neighborhood.
| 475 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:52:35am |
re: #468 Daniel Ballard
No, I was asking you personally, as a human being, not as a candidate. Do you feel any ethical obligation for the way that the companies that you're part owner in operate?
| 476 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:53:15am |
re: #474 Kragar
No one wants stinky sick people in the neighborhood.
But what's wrong with a nicely landscaped cemetery?
| 477 |
Varek Raith Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:53:20am |
re: #471 lawhawk
That Fawkes mask looks odd.
It is shopped or just a shadow/light/angle thing?
| 478 |
makeitstop Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:53:28am |
| 479 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:53:57am |
re: #477 Varek Raith
That Fawkes mask looks odd.
It is shopped or just a shadow/light/angle thing?
[Link: twitter.com...]
| 480 |
Varek Raith Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:55:16am |
| 481 |
lawhawk Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:55:26am |
re: #477 Varek Raith
There's been no photo editing whatsoever. It was just taken with an HTC Droid Incredible with basic settings. So, it probably was the light/shadow combo - (large image).
| 482 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:56:24am |
re: #459 Gus
[Embedded content]
Yeah Dinesh D'Sousa should shut the fuck up about moral values. He has no room at all to lecture anyone about that.
| 483 |
The Mongoose Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:56:32am |
re: #480 Varek Raith
Ok. Still jumps out at me.
Stupid eyes.
:P
I wondered the exact same thing. It does look odd. Neat trick of the light.
| 484 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:56:57am |
re: #153 iossarian
LAUSD went way beyond "nice'. And in this fiscal condition, all we can afford is functional. Put the architecture money into class sizes or teachers.
Like as another example the costliest school in the nation. 500 million plus. For a school. Not teachers not books, not field trips or guest speakers. Just the facility.
From Huffpo First Posted: 08/22/10
LOS ANGELES -- Next month's opening of the Robert F. Kennedy Community Schools will be auspicious for a reason other than its both storied and infamous history as the former Ambassador Hotel, where the Democratic presidential contender was assassinated in 1968. With an eye-popping price tag of $578 million, it will mark the inauguration of the nation's most expensive public school ever.
| 485 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:57:00am |
re: #427 garhighway
2. The overseas outsourcing example is illustrative: if that moves hurts the enterprise, them it was a mistake. As was noted above, some companies have done that and had to undo it because it hurt their bnusiness. That's good; good moves get rewarded and bad ones punished.
In spite of the fact that everybody who has ever had to deal with robotic voice menu hell and then somebody in Myanmar at the end of it, TOTALLY AND UTTERLY HATES IT!! MOST companies still use that model.
| 486 |
lawhawk Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:57:05am |
re: #476 Sheila Broflovski
Nothing. In fact, some nicely landscaped cemeteries become tourist attractions (see Trinity Church above), or Greenwood Cemetery in Brooklyn, or Père Lachaise Cemetery in Paris for instance.
| 487 |
Varek Raith Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:57:53am |
re: #483 The Mongoose
I wondered the exact same thing. It does look odd. Neat trick of the light.
The Face of Mars a Water Tank.
| 488 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:58:49am |
re: #486 lawhawk
Nothing. In fact, some nicely landscaped cemeteries become tourist attractions (see Trinity Church above), or Greenwood Cemetery in Brooklyn, or Père Lachaise Cemetery in Paris for instance.
That's only if the cemetery was there first (because: historic site!) and the homes are build around it.
A nicely landscaped cemetery with no celebrities resting in it, isn't much of a draw for people who are still alive.
| 489 |
Varek Raith Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:59:29am |
Serously.
Do these jackasses know who Guy Fawkes was?
Facepalm.
| 490 |
lawhawk Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:59:34am |
re: #488 Sheila Broflovski
There is the bonus of having quiet neighbors though... /
| 491 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 9:59:48am |
re: #484 Daniel Ballard
LAUSD went way beyond "nice'. And in this fiscal condition, all we can afford is functional. Put the architecture money into class sizes or teachers.
Like as another example the costliest school in the nation. 500 million plus. For a school. Not teachers not books, not field trips or guest speakers. Just the facility.
From Huffpo First Posted: 08/22/10
LOS ANGELES -- Next month's opening of the Robert F. Kennedy Community Schools will be auspicious for a reason other than its both storied and infamous history as the former Ambassador Hotel, where the Democratic presidential contender was assassinated in 1968. With an eye-popping price tag of $578 million, it will mark the inauguration of the nation's most expensive public school ever.
That's almost exactly the 1999 cost of one Tomahawk (AGM 109).
| 492 |
lawhawk Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:00:15am |
re: #489 Varek Raith
They only know what they saw in V for Vendetta. Doubt they know the real Guy Fawkes or the history of his activities.
| 493 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:00:20am |
re: #489 Varek Raith
Serously.
Do these jackasses know who Guy Fawkes was?
Facepalm.
Wasn't he a Catholic tyrant wannabe?
| 494 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:00:48am |
Boom!
Dinesh D'Souza has since resigned as president of The King's College per @thedailybeast:propub.ca/U9NqNt #officialssay— ProPublica (@ProPublica) October 18, 2012
| 495 |
freetoken Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:00:58am |
re: #484 Daniel Ballard
This sort of thing has happened all over California, although at a smaller scale. School districts, including community college districts, have spent quite a bit of resources on what I consider tokens to their own ... greatness.
It's become a fetish among academia bureaucrats, I think.
| 496 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:01:36am |
re: #493 Gus
Wasn't he a Catholic tyrant wannabe?
Yeah,
Gunpowder plot that tried to kill James I of England. I have no idea why he's become a leftist icon.
| 497 |
garhighway Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:01:51am |
Last note on the Wal-Mart thread:
Yes, labor exists in a supply-and-demand environment. When the supply is tight, pay goes up and vice versa.
I realize that am suggesting that the requirements of the law are the minimum standard and that this invites regulation. As a citizen, I like a certain amount of regulation.
I note that the thought process I describe transcends wages. Look at financial disclosure. When the company sits down to talk about what should go in the quarterly earnings release, the starting point for the analysis is 'what does the SEC require?" From there, we go to "what else should we put in there? What do the shareholders and analysts want?" and think about the relative risks, costs and benefits of additional disclosure. But it starts with knowing what is non-negotiable because the law requires it. Such is life.
Finally, the Costco example is interesting. Costco has convinced themselves that paying more gets them more, and that it is a good net deal for them. I think that's great. That means we have two competing visions out there, and we can see which one works better. If one becomes clearly better, you can count on the other guy changing.
| 498 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:02:14am |
re: #496 HappyWarrior
Yeah,
Gunpowder plot that tried to kill James I of England. I have no idea why he's become a leftist icon.
A movie.
[Link: www.imdb.com...]
| 499 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:02:39am |
| 502 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:03:39am |
More from 47% Dinner: Romney wants something like "Iran Hostage" situation that put Reagan in the White House.
| 503 |
Kragar Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:03:46am |
Tucker Carlson: Crowley’s fact check was like Abraham Lincoln’s assassination
Daily Caller founder Tucker Carlson says that Candy Crowley’s real-time fact check of Mitt Romney during Tuesday night presidential debate was so devastating that it can be compared to John Wilkes Booth’s assassination of President Abraham Lincoln in 1865.
| 505 |
Varek Raith Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:03:59am |
re: #503 Kragar
Tucker Carlson: Crowley’s fact check was like Abraham Lincoln’s assassination
Lolwhut.
| 506 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:04:07am |
re: #503 Kragar
Tucker Carlson: Crowley’s fact check was like Abraham Lincoln’s assassination
So true.
//
| 507 |
Sionainn Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:04:18am |
Has anyone seen this yet?
New Revelation At ’47%’ Dinner – Romney Was Hoping For Something Like Iran Hostage
| 508 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:04:26am |
re: #500 Varek Raith
Che Grovera.
My icon.
(And avatar)
:P
Image: 6986_cce0.jpeg
I own this t-shirt made by the Onion of Che wearing a Che shirt. I wore it to a family party and the joke went straight over a lot of my cousins' heads.
| 509 |
wrenchwench Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:04:27am |
Put this in your binder and smoke it:
October is Nat'l Women's Small Business Month. Did you know about 30%#SmallBiz are owned by women, up from 5% in 1970? cc @sbagov— Valerie Jarrett (@vj44) October 18, 2012
| 510 |
Varek Raith Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:04:31am |
re: #499 HappyWarrior
I never saw that movie.
It was meh.
Action movie with little to no plot.
Good for wasting time.
| 511 |
Mocking Jay Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:04:47am |
Romney +7 Gallup LVs (52-45) and +1 RVs (48-47). gallup.com/home.aspx
— Jed Lewison (@jedlewison) October 18, 2012
| 512 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:04:48am |
re: #471 lawhawk
Yes OWS, you guys lose when Wall Street wins. That happens because you're a bunch of losers.
| 513 |
Sionainn Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:04:56am |
re: #502 Sheila Broflovski
More from 47% Dinner: Romney wants something like "Iran Hostage" situation that put Reagan in the White House.
:-) Beat me to it.
| 514 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:04:56am |
re: #496 HappyWarrior
Yeah,
Gunpowder plot that tried to kill James I of England. I have no idea why he's become a leftist icon.
I think it has to do with Nov. 5 holiday in the UK, where Guy is like the Jack O Lantern.
| 515 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:05:08am |
re: #502 Sheila Broflovski
More from 47% Dinner: Romney wants something like "Iran Hostage" situation that put Reagan in the White House.
Shame. He'll have to make do with a dead ambassador and a few staffers.
| 516 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:05:34am |
re: #503 Kragar
Tucker Carlson: Crowley’s fact check was like Abraham Lincoln’s assassination
I don't think words even need to be said about how utterly stupid and lacking perspective that statement is.
| 517 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:05:34am |
re: #507 Sionainn
Has anyone seen this yet?
New Revelation At ’47%’ Dinner – Romney Was Hoping For Something Like Iran Hostage
5 posts ahead of ya.
| 518 |
Varek Raith Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:06:39am |
re: #503 Kragar
Tucker Carlson: Crowley’s fact check was like Abraham Lincoln’s assassination
So...
Candy stopped Romney from killing the truth?
| 519 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:06:39am |
re: #514 Sheila Broflovski
I think it has to do with Nov. 5 holiday in the UK, where Guy is like the Jack O Lantern.
Yeah, that sounds right.
| 520 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:06:39am |
re: #497 garhighway
No. We can't count on the other guy changing. We can count on what has happened now: That Walmart pays pittances to as few employees as possible who are as overworked as possible while getting as few benefits as possible, and that's their competitive niche. Costco pays more people more money, and that's their competitive niche. Both are valid economic competitive niches. As you've said, there's no actual ethical valuation done by the corporations, so the only way to stop unethical behavior like Walmart's is through strong government regulation.
I would really actually rather that corporations had an ethical culture, but it's almost certainly not going to happen in the US, anyway. So it has to be government regulation.
| 521 |
freetoken Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:06:39am |
Looks like the new server came just in time. Reddit is sending lots of people to the "Free Beacon" article.
| 522 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:07:11am |
re: #507 Sionainn
Has anyone seen this yet?
New Revelation At ’47%’ Dinner – Romney Was Hoping For Something Like Iran Hostage
Yep. Amazing isn't it?
| 523 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:07:16am |
re: #486 lawhawk
Nothing. In fact, some nicely landscaped cemeteries become tourist attractions (see Trinity Church above), or Greenwood Cemetery in Brooklyn, or Père Lachaise Cemetery in Paris for instance.
Another such is Graceland Cemetery on Clark Street in Chicago. It's a few blocks north of Wrigley Field.
| 525 |
Reverend Mother Ramallo Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:08:45am |
re: #510 Varek Raith
It was meh.
Action movie with little to no plot.
Good for wasting time.
Glad you said that, cause all this time I thought I didn't get it.
| 526 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:09:11am |
Honestly, I think one of these days, I'm just going to create an Enver Hoxha t-shirt and see if anyone gets it. I doubt they will but that's part of the fun of being a quasi hipster.
| 527 |
Sionainn Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:09:21am |
re: #521 freetoken
Looks like the new server came just in time. Reddit is sending lots of people to the "Free Beacon" article.
I just had the longest wait occur when hitting the "new comments" button.
| 528 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:09:26am |
re: #503 Kragar
Tucker Carlson: Crowley’s fact check was like Abraham Lincoln’s assassination
Yes, Mitt Romney fell over dead, didn't he?
[headdesk]
| 529 |
RadicalModerate Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:09:51am |
Breaking news:
Defense of Marriage Act has just been ruled unconstitutional by another Federal court.
New York appeals court strikes down DOMA
New York (CNN) -- A federal appeals court in New York on Thursday became the nation's second to deem the Defense of Marriage Act unconstitutional.
The divisive Clinton-era law was passed in 1996 and bars federal recognition of same-sex marriages and says states cannot be forced to recognize such marriages from other states.
The court determined that the federal law violates the Constitution's equal protection clause.
| 531 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:09:54am |
re: #510 Varek Raith
It was meh.
Action movie with little to no plot.
Good for wasting time.
I had and have a celeb crush on Natalie Portman. Seeing her bald in the trailer gave me a sad.
| 532 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:10:26am |
| 533 |
wrenchwench Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:11:23am |
| 534 |
A Mom Anon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:14:34am |
re: #497 garhighway
Here's the thing though,money shouldn't be the only bottom line of success for any company. Squeezing every last nickel out of your employees exacerbates poverty and creates a workforce that's not at all loyal. Why should they be? Cutting corners and costs in manufacturing or producing something results in shoddy workmanship at best,dangerous and unhealthy products at worst. That results in lawsuits,people not liking or trusting your brand,and for what? Why not give a shit about the people you sell to? How is that bad for business? If it's all about pleasing the shareholders,then I have to say that's short sighted and ass backwards and business schools and corporate icons are wrong. There should be an emphasis on treating workers fairly and paying them a living wage,at least. If you work 40-50 hours a week there is no excuse for a company not paying you enough to cover food,clothing,shelter,education,transportation and healthcare.
If I own a company that makes a billion dollars a year,I fail to see how not making an extra billion dollars year after year after year is somehow a failure. What is wrong with a steady and reliable income? IMO that's at the heart of the problem,it's greed and an inablity to give a damn about anyone else or anything beyond this quarter's earnings.
| 535 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:15:35am |
re: #491 Decatur Deb
That's almost exactly the 1999 cost of one Tomahawk (AGM 109).
My error. Ten Tomawaks. Decimals is hard.
| 536 |
Mattand Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:15:38am |
re: #441 wrenchwench
re: #418 dragonath
I'm going to be slightly redundant, but with emphasis.
Mitt Romney chose Kris Fucking Kobach as his adviser on immigration. Kris Fucking Kobach wrote SB1070. (The "co-author", Russell Fucking Pearce, is too stupid to have been much help, and holds no office now, because he was recalled. In Arizona. He was too much for Arizona. Think about what that means.)
Kris Kobach is one of the most blatantly racist elected Republicans in the US today. He's secretary of state in Kansas. Mitt Romney chose this piece of shit to be his adviser on immigration. That alone makes Mitt Romney a racist piece of shit in my eyes.
OK, I'm going to sip some tea and fix a bike now....
Over-the-top bolding is mine.
This comment, IMO, pretty much puts to rest any question about where Romney stands on immigration, and by extension, any allegation that Obama misrepresented Romney's postion.
Seriously, you don't hire a guy like Kobach to be your immigration adviser and then pretend you have a nuanced stand on the subject.
| 537 |
garhighway Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:15:39am |
Obdi, I think we can count on the other guy changing if not changing costs him money. If the Wal-Mart model leaves money on the table, and if Wal-Mart is rational, they'll change. (If they are irrational, that's a whole different problem.)
For workers like those at Wal-Mart, the best answer is a union. I think we need a rule set that makes it easier to unionize. That's another check and balance on management, and I think that is a good thing.
At my company, we think about this stuff all the time: where are we versus the market, what is our turnover like, are we losing good employees? But we aren't going to simply buy employee satisfaction with money. The marginal additional expense has to be economically justified.
| 538 |
makeitstop Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:16:09am |
re: #495 freetoken
This sort of thing has happened all over California, although at a smaller scale. School districts, including community college districts, have spent quite a bit of resources on what I consider tokens to their own ... greatness.
It's become a fetish among academia bureaucrats, I think.
Wasn't there a high school in Texas that recently spent $60 million on a football stadium?
| 539 |
freetoken Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:17:24am |
re: #538 makeitstop
I don't remember the actual figure, but I remember the story. I think it was in the Dallas area.
| 540 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:17:42am |
re: #475 Obdicut
First-I admit I am not consistent.
When it comes to my humble investments I'm aggressive. I put my need to provide above concerns about the actions of the firms in the fund. I listen to my financial adviser.
When it comes to how and where I spend my time, money or volunteerism, it's different. We got CFL and LED lights as soon as we could. We donate some money- ASPCA, Arthritis Foundation, Second amend. Foundation. We volunteer for the local ACLU each year. We teach gun safety and defensive skills as volunteers from time to time.
I'll admit there are firms in the fund I would decline to work for depending on the work. I'd not film and edit BS for Exxon commercials. I would do a shoot for a local gas station owner.
| 542 |
The Mongoose Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:18:04am |
re: #534 A Mom Anon
If I own a company that makes a billion dollars a year,I fail to see how not making an extra billion dollars year after year after year is somehow a failure. What is wrong with a steady and reliable income? IMO that's at the heart of the problem,it's greed and an inablity to give a damn about anyone else or anything beyond this quarter's earnings.
The thing is that almost no one "owns" a company that makes a billion dollars a year. Most companies of that size are public, and the market is always going to back whichever company can make the highest profits. Certainly those few companies that are privately owned can choose to trade off profits for higher employee wages or lower prices, but public companies are much more limited.
| 543 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:19:46am |
re: #537 garhighway
Obdi, I think we can count on the other guy changing if not changing costs him money. If the Wal-Mart model leaves money on the table, and if Wal-Mart is rational, they'll change. (If they are irrational, that's a whole different problem.)
You just ignored what I wrote. Both of them are occupying different niches. Both systems work. That's why we have, for example, companies that sell high-end shit at high prices and companies that sell low-end shit at low prices. Both are a niche. It's the same way with workforce treatment. There are places that have the competitive position of treating people like shit, not training them, and enduring the turnover. That is their plan.
You seem to have the very odd view that all companies will follow the same optimal strategy. It's wrong, and utterly simplistic. Companies can have different, valid strategies, and they're not going to follow someone else's if their own works too.
| 544 |
freetoken Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:19:59am |
"Fetishize" - it will be one of my words for the week.:
Academia big-wigs fetishize monumental buildings.
Politicians fetishize STEM.
American media fetishize the great "uncommitted".
| 545 |
wrenchwench Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:20:01am |
re: #536 Mattand
Over-the-top bolding is mine.
This comment, IMO, pretty much puts to rest any question about where Romney stands on immigration, and by extension, any allegation that Obama misrepresented Romney's postion.
Seriously, you don't hire a guy like Kobach to be your immigration adviser and then pretend you have nuanced stand on the subject.
Looks even better with more bold!
| 546 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:20:26am |
re: #540 Daniel Ballard
Okay. So you don't feel that as owner you have any ethical obligation to account for the company's actions. Who does?
| 548 |
darthstar Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:22:08am |
| 549 |
wrenchwench Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:22:11am |
re: #544 freetoken
"Fetishize" - it will be one of my words for the week.:
Academia big-wigs fetishize monumental buildings.
Politicians fetishize STEM.
American media fetishize the great "uncommitted".
I wrote a paper in college about the fetishization of commodities. Professor liked it so much he kept it. :( I'm sure they had Xerox machines back then!
| 550 |
A Mom Anon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:22:20am |
re: #537 garhighway
If WalMart catches wind of employees even chatting about a union they go into full metal anti union mode. They fire workers and intimidate the remaining ones. They will threaten to shut the store down and reopen somewhere else. They've done it alot. There are dozens of articles and a few documentaries about this kind of crap online,it's not hard to find.
There would have to be solid and enforced laws on the books to protect workers from that before unions could make a comeback. As long as ALEC and KStreet have their way with Congress it's not going to happen.
| 551 |
makeitstop Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:22:38am |
re: #539 freetoken
I don't remember the actual figure, but I remember the story. I think it was in the Dallas area.
Allen, Texas. And yeah, 60 mil. Unreal.
| 552 |
garhighway Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:22:40am |
Mom Anon:
Many of the factors you mention (quality, customer satisfaction, etc..) are precisely the sorts of things that rational management should be balancing as they assess their compensation strategy. Bad quality costs money in lots of different ways, and it is worth real money to avoid that problem. Ditto having unhappy employees transmit that unhappiness to customers.
But absent those sorts of tradeoffs, overpaying for labor makes as much sense as overpaying for rent or paper or gas.
| 553 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:22:57am |
re: #536 Mattand
Over-the-top bolding is mine.
This comment, IMO, pretty much puts to rest any question about where Romney stands on immigration, and by extension, any allegation that Obama misrepresented Romney's postion.
Seriously, you don't hire a guy like Kobach to be your immigration adviser and then pretend you have nuanced stand on the subject.
Precisely. I'd like Romney to be asked straight on.
Governor Romney, if you had even the slightest problem with SB1070. Why did you hire its architect to serve as your adviser on immigration issues? Of course the media seems by and large to insist on giving Mitt a pass for his bs so I doubt it will ever be asked. But seriously, we're supposed to believe now that Mitt Romney opposed SB1070? And that he didn't use immigration to right-flank Perry and Gingrich?
| 554 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:23:33am |
re: #552 garhighway
Mom Anon:
Many of the factors you mention (quality, customer satisfaction, etc..) are precisely the sorts of things that rational management should be balancing as they assess their compensation strategy. Bad quality costs money in lots of different ways, and it is worth real money to avoid that problem. Ditto having unhappy employees transmit that unhappiness to customers.
But absent those sorts of tradeoffs, overpaying for labor makes as much sense as overpaying for rent or paper or gas.
But overpaying for CEO's makes perfect business sense.//
| 555 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:23:44am |
Bug--Just got bumped out of Masterspy ("You must be logged in to use Comment Spy."), but still show as logged-in.
| 556 |
William of Orange Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:24:36am |
Today I shed a tear for this actress who died today. My fellow compatriot Sylvia Kristel died from complications from cancer. Though I'm a bit sad, it comforts me that her suffering is over.
| 557 |
AK-47% Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:25:50am |
I can understand the aspect of reinvesting in a business to expand. Wal-Mart tried to expand into Europe, but here in Germany those unionized workers just couldn't get the hang of the Walton Family Spirit and they sold out and retreated from the market...
| 558 |
A Mom Anon Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:26:11am |
re: #542 The Mongoose
OK,take the billion out of it,I was choosing a high number because it's round and easy to look at. Make it 5 million then. Same thing still applies. if a company is doing well,even if it's not growing at a fast rate from year to year,what is the problem? My point is that the system seems to only reward greed and nothing else. The rest of us pay for that in a whole host of ways and maybe it's time we had a different business model.
| 559 |
blueraven Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:26:12am |
re: #511 Mocking Jay
[Embedded content]
That's fucked up. 6 point RV/LV difference?
I know they recently switched their model
More daily trackers (latest available)
Ipsos
Obama 47% - Romney 44%
[Link: www.ipsos-na.com...]
Rand
Obama 50.03 Romney 44.34
[Link: mmicdata.rand.org...]
IBD
Obama 46.8% | Romney 45.3%
[Link: news.investors.com...]
| 560 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:26:17am |
re: #542 The Mongoose
There are few things better for making the case for government regulation of business and finance than honest discussion of the way that business and finance operate when unconstrained by regulation. There is no motivator towards the ethical in business. If there is, it's accidental-- the actual motivator is some benefit contained by acting ethically. If we want businesses and companies to act ethically, then they have to be bound by law to do so, for there is no motivation for them to do so on their own.
I wish that we had a culture where this was not true, and everyone from owners to the officers of a company felt an obligation to act ethically in their business.
| 561 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:26:24am |
As I stated upthread, companies that screw over their workers by paying them so little they have to depend on foot stamps and medicaid, government should garnish from the CEO pay and corporate stock dividends what it has to pay out in welfare for the lowest level. Like taking child support.
| 562 |
The Mongoose Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:28:33am |
re: #561 Sheila Broflovski
As I stated upthread, companies that screw over their workers by paying them so little they have to depend on foot stamps and medicaid, government should garnish from the CEO pay and corporate stock dividends what it has to pay out in welfare for the lowest level. Like taking child support.
At which point the company moves its headquarters to a country that doesn't do these things, and everyone working at the HQ loses their job.
| 563 |
Gus Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:29:12am |
What's inside Mitt #Romney's binder? #p2 #tlot #Obama #Obama2012 #ObamaBiden2012 #EtchASketch twitter.com/Gus_802/status...— Gus (@Gus_802) October 18, 2012
| 564 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:29:38am |
re: #562 The Mongoose
At which point the company moves its headquarters to a country that doesn't do these things, and everyone working at the HQ loses their job.
Why would it matter where the HQ was?
| 565 |
garhighway Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:30:04am |
Sheila:
Isn't that what a minimum wage law exists to prevent?
(And seperately, who here is suggesting that overpaying CEOs is a good idea?)
Obdi:
Sorry I missed your point. Yes, companies in different niches or industries have different compensation strategies that aren't directly comparable.
| 566 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:30:38am |
re: #562 The Mongoose
At which point the company moves its headquarters to a country that doesn't do these things, and everyone working at the HQ loses their job.
Let's see Walmart pull completely out of the USA and only sell their shit where it's made. Do it.
| 567 |
The Mongoose Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:30:49am |
re: #564 Obdicut
Why would it matter where the HQ was?
How would you garnish the CEO's pay if he doesn't pay taxes in your country any more?
| 569 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:32:06am |
re: #567 The Mongoose
How would you garnish the CEO's pay if he doesn't pay taxes in your country any more?
You can stop the business from doing business in your country. Are you saying Wal-mart would forgo all the profits it could make in the US just to preserve its business model of paying shit wages to workers?
| 570 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:32:07am |
re: #565 garhighway
Sheila:
Isn't that what a minimum wage law exists to prevent?
Why does Walmart hit up the federal government for welfare and food stamps for their employees at the tune of $500,000 per store if that is what minimum wage exists to prevent?
| 571 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:32:18am |
I really don't know a lot about this subject I must confess but what rubs me the wrong way is hearing about CEOs that reward themselves with large ass bonuses even when the company isn't doing well. That just rubs me the wrong way.
| 572 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:32:30am |
re: #567 The Mongoose
How would you garnish the CEO's pay if he doesn't pay taxes in your country any more?
Property lien.
Occupy The Sock Aisle.
| 573 |
The Mongoose Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:33:28am |
re: #569 Obdicut
You can stop the business from doing business in your country. Are you saying Wal-mart would forgo all the profits it could make in the US just to preserve its business model of paying shit wages to workers?
No, they'd raise their prices, as would every other business affected by this, until profitability was restored. The employees would have more, but their purchasing power wouldn't change.
| 574 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:35:19am |
re: #555 Decatur Deb
Bug--Just got bumped out of Masterspy ("You must be logged in to use Comment Spy."), but still show as logged-in.
Recovered Spy after refreshing the front page, then Spy.
| 575 |
The Mongoose Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:35:25am |
re: #573 The Mongoose
No, they'd raise their prices, as would every other business affected by this, until profitability was restored. The employees would have more, but their purchasing power wouldn't change.
Actually, there's another problem...if you're taxing back the dividend returns, investors are going to look elsewhere and the company won't be able to get the capital it needs to sustain its size. It will close down the less-profitable portions of its business that no longer meet its required rate of return. Lots and lots of people will lose their jobs.
| 576 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:35:41am |
re: #573 The Mongoose
No, they'd raise their prices, as would every other business affected by this, until profitability was restored.
That's a basic, simple mistake about how the market operates. Stores don't set the prices of the product at Cost + X, they set it at what the market will bear that gives them the highest area under a sales/profitability per sale curve. If they raised their prices, they'd only cut into their own profits unless the bump in salaries actually made everything suddenly unprofitable. Wal-mart does very, very well in profits, and could absorb that rise without being unprofitable-- while still making large profits.
Do you understand this? You seem to have made the very foolish assumption that the rise in wages would drive the company into unprofitability, which is pretty bizarre.
| 577 |
The Mongoose Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:37:36am |
re: #576 Obdicut
That's a basic, simple mistake about how the market operates. Stores don't set the prices of the product at Cost + X, they set it at what the market will bear that gives them the highest area under a sales/profitability per sale curve. If they raised their prices, they'd only cut into their own profits unless the bump in salaries actually made everything suddenly unprofitable. Wal-mart does very, very well in profits, and could absorb that rise without being unprofitable-- while still making large profits.
Do you understand this? You seem to have made the very foolish assumption that the rise in wages would drive the company into unprofitability, which is pretty bizarre.
It's not about profitable or not, it's about hitting the ROR demanded by investors. And I understand this better perfectly well, it's what I do.
| 578 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:37:46am |
re: #575 The Mongoose
A large working company doesn't need capital to sustain its size. Especially not fucking Wal-Mart. Jesus.
Investors mainly invest in shares that are traded back and forth to no benefit for the company. There is this bizarre misconception that someone investing in stock is giving money to companies. They're not. They're buying an investment someone else already made. There is a gigantic difference between someone investing in a company to start it up or expand it, and in just buying some one else's stock in the company.
Do you understand this?
| 579 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:38:09am |
re: #576 Obdicut
That's a basic, simple mistake about how the market operates. Stores don't set the prices of the product at Cost + X, they set it at what the market will bear that gives them the highest area under a sales/profitability per sale curve. If they raised their prices, they'd only cut into their own profits unless the bump in salaries actually made everything suddenly unprofitable. Wal-mart does very, very well in profits, and could absorb that rise without being unprofitable-- while still making large profits.
Do you understand this? You seem to have made the very foolish assumption that the rise in wages would drive the company into unprofitability, which is pretty bizarre.
Wally World will bring manufacturing back to the U.S. only if labor laws are rolled back such that Triangle Shirtwaist conditions exist once again, just like in their sweatshops in Bangladesh.
| 580 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:39:03am |
re: #575 The Mongoose
Actually, there's another problem...if you're taxing back the dividend returns, investors are going to look elsewhere and the company won't be able to get the capital it needs to sustain its size. It will close down the less-profitable portions of its business that no longer meet its required rate of return. Lots and lots of people will lose their jobs.
Like they're not doing that already.
| 581 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:39:03am |
re: #577 The Mongoose
It's not about profitable or not, it's about hitting the ROR demanded by investors. And I understand this better perfectly well, it's what I do.
Okay. So explain your rationale for assuming that a rise in wages would necessarily push all products out of the ROR that the company finds acceptable. I have worked in that industry too, and I know that labor costs for Wal-Mart are proportionally a small part of their overall costs for putting product on shelf.
| 582 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:42:00am |
re: #491 Decatur Deb
Good thing those don't come from the school budget, although they have been very educational for some of our enemies.
| 583 |
The Mongoose Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:42:14am |
re: #578 Obdicut
A large working company doesn't need capital to sustain its size. Especially not fucking Wal-Mart. Jesus.
Investors mainly invest in shares that are traded back and forth to no benefit for the company. There is this bizarre misconception that someone investing in stock is giving money to companies. They're not. They're buying an investment someone else already made. There is a gigantic difference between someone investing in a company to start it up or expand it, and in just buying some one else's stock in the company.
Do you understand this?
I understand it perfectly well, thanks. Large firms seek capital constantly through the bond markets, and the price of their equity affects their ability to raise capital through both debt and equity. If you honestly believe you can simply tax these companies and that they will take no action to restore the lost profitability, I can't help you.
| 585 |
Joanne Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:46:57am |
re: #467 A Mom Anon
I'm still WTFing over that. Seems like the rest of the town really wasn't upset about it til Tagg got is knickers in a twist over it. How does a hospice degrade property values?
A bunch of icky sick people (who are DYING, man)! I mean, really...in MY neighborhood? Let them die elsewhere!
I dispise this entire family.
| 586 |
philosophus invidius Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:47:42am |
We have a genuine october surprise for one of the presidential candidates.— October Surprise (@OctSurprise) October 15, 2012
| 587 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:48:38am |
re: #583 The Mongoose
I understand it perfectly well, thanks. Large firms seek capital constantly through the bond markets, and the price of their equity affects their ability to raise capital through both debt and equity. If you honestly believe you can simply tax these companies and that they will take no action to restore the lost profitability, I can't help you.
Some large firms seek capital through bond markets. Wal-Mart, with profits of 15 Billion last year, doesn't have any such need. It might do so if it wanted, it's certainly not a need.
You keep dodging the point, over and over. Companies have a profit margin. Wal-mart, for example, made 15.5 billion in 2011. A study done by UC Berkeley estimated the cost of increased wages to $12 an hour at Wal-Mart for all employees currently below it would cost the company 3.2 billion. That means-- assuming no benefit from that increase in wages to the company-- they'd have a profit of 12.2 billion dollars in 2011. Your'e trying to convince me that that change in profit would cause them to jack prices wildly. The study, done by people actually taking this seriously rather than arguing from pure ideology, found that if they did, the effect on a Wal-mart customer would be $12 a year, and most of the cost would be sensibly absorbed by Wal-mart because they'd still be quite profitable enough.
[Link: inthesetimes.com...]
Do you understand that by positioning corporations as completely unethical and only driven by pure profit, in the way you are doing, you are making the best case possible for strong regulation? You are literally saying that there is no way to depend on corporations to act ethically, and that if you attempt to make them act ethically they will flee the goddamn country rather than do it.
| 588 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Oct 18, 2012 10:58:43am |
I have a reply (not a complaint those things are for disagreements) to the downdings above. Please note almost nobody wrote about having an issue with the negative reports on Romney at politifact. But there is lots of issue with those ratings that are critical of Obama or supportive of Mitt.
Honestly folks I think we have a pro Obama feeling here strong enough to distort how the factcheckers are viewed. Not that that is anything horrible but it's an observable phenom.
| 589 |
garhighway Thu, Oct 18, 2012 11:01:07am |
Obdi:
So Wal-mart has a choice: spend the $3.2B on employees and cut their earnings by 20% or continue to use that money to pay shareholders and invest in the business. My guess would be that their investors would view the increase in op expense and decrease in earnings as bad and punish them accordingly. Unless Wal-Mart can make the case that spending that money will bring the company some sort of financial benefit of comparable size. They probably can't make that case, so they don't do it.
As I said upthread, if we as a society don't want them to behave that way, we should raise the minimum wage. Or make it easier to unionize, or both. I'm in favor of both.
| 590 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 11:01:21am |
re: #588 Daniel Ballard
Why do you consistently ignore people actually making legitimate arguments for why the factcheckers get it wrong, and just ascribe it to bias? It really does a disservice to the people spending their time and energy trying to explain their position to you, to dismissive it so contemptuously.
| 591 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 11:04:17am |
re: #589 garhighway
Obdi:
So Wal-mart has a choice: spend the $3.2B on employees and cut their earnings by 20% or continue to use that money to pay shareholders and invest in the business. My guess would be that their investors would view the increase in op expense and decrease in earnings as bad and punish them accordingly. Unless Wal-Mart can make the case that spending that money will bring the company some sort of financial benefit of comparable size. They probably can't make that case, so they don't do it.
As I said upthread, if we as a society don't want them to behave that way, we should raise the minimum wage. Or make it easier to unionize, or both. I'm in favor of both.
Right. That's what I'm saying: That the best case to make for the regulation of companies is simply following economic truths about the ethical behavior of companies. I'm also saying that I wish our culture was different, and that we didn't think that the only considerations that should be made by shareholders and officers were ones of profitability, that people actually felt, you know, ownership to the things they owned and the jobs they worked. That separation and atomization of ownership is one of the larger problems in the ethical behavior of companies.
The only place i seriously disagreed with you was your assertion that companies would all follow the same successful model; there's many, many successful models, and some of them are built on gross exploitation of the worker. Some are built on gross exploitation of the investor, too.
| 592 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Oct 18, 2012 11:05:02am |
re: #546 Obdicut
Okay. So you don't feel that as owner you have any ethical obligation to account for the company's actions. Who does?
Hang on. I have a stake in a couple mutual funds, my ownership of the stock therin in indirect. As it happens I don't buy stocks directly with the exception of a firm where I'm on the B.O.D.
Who is responsible? Directly the decision makers which would be the B.O.D. and indirectly the shareholders as they can only vote the board not set policy.
| 593 |
philosophus invidius Thu, Oct 18, 2012 11:05:04am |
re: #588 Daniel Ballard
Well Romney did lie a lot. On what points do you think Politifact was unfair to him?
| 594 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Oct 18, 2012 11:07:02am |
re: #590 Obdicut
It's not just bias, I admitted more than twice they are imperfect and get it wrong from time to time. IMO the bias is there as an observable factor. I expect some denial but I'm just posting it as I see it.
When some ignore the critical salient details in the Politifact as I linked, that's a good argument against the critic at hand.
| 595 |
William Barnett-Lewis Thu, Oct 18, 2012 11:08:25am |
re: #496 HappyWarrior
Yeah,
Gunpowder plot that tried to kill James I of England. I have no idea why he's become a leftist icon.
V for Vendetta came up with this fantasy that Fawkes was a fighter against tyrany. It took off from there.
| 596 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 11:09:37am |
re: #592 Daniel Ballard
But you have a stake in a mutual fund, meaning you own the company that owns the stocks. So you have a responsibility, as a shareholder of the mutual fund, about how that fund is run?
Or does that one remove remove the responsibility as well, so that if a company owns another company, the owners of company A aren't responsible for what company B does?
| 597 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 11:10:00am |
re: #594 Daniel Ballard
When some ignore the critical salient details in the Politifact as I linked, that's a good argument against the critic at hand.
And who did that, please?
| 598 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Oct 18, 2012 11:24:18am |
re: #596 Obdicut
I claim no removal from responsibility for where I choose to invest. Nor do I intend to apologize for it. But as compared to the decision makers, my tie in is pretty small. I'm not a major investor, not near 1% let alone 5% which would give me more rights and responsibilities.
| 599 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Oct 18, 2012 11:25:35am |
re: #597 Obdicut
I think we did something a lot like this yesterday when I took a comment to "eff the factcheckers" as a resolutely negative comment on them. You think I had that wrong. Ok.
I don't see any reason to repeat that dance today.
| 600 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 11:29:26am |
re: #599 Daniel Ballard
That was also one comment amidst many, and yet you chose to address that. You're making very, very general statements, and then backing them up by cherrypicking.
In general, what is found is people making arguments about why they find a particular Politifact rating off. They are not ignoring the argument made by Politificat, they are confronting it and arguing against it. Saying that they are ignoring things when they're in fact arguing against them is silly.
What you could say that would be probably true is that there is more likelihood of a false negative rating against Obama being exposed here than a false negative rating for Romney, since there are more people here who are likely to vet the former. That would be a true claim, but it's very, very different from claiming that people ignore the factchecker's arguments. That doesn't happen, and I don't understand why you react to people spending time and effort to make logical arguments by pretending they don't exist.
| 601 |
Obdicut Thu, Oct 18, 2012 11:31:22am |
re: #598 Daniel Ballard
Okay. I think that all makes sense. I'm just trying to get at the point that we've atomized responsibility to the point that nobody really feels responsible, and that's why companies lack ethics to the degree that they do. It's partially a byproduct of our stock system, but it's another reason why regulation is necessary: nobody actually feels that sense of duty from ownership anymore, not to any great extent.
| 602 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Oct 18, 2012 11:35:42am |
re: #395 Gus
[Embedded content]
Should put a few hammers in front of those sickles and see how many heads explode.
;P
| 603 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Oct 18, 2012 11:46:08am |
re: #543 Obdicut
You just ignored what I wrote. Both of them are occupying different niches. Both systems work. That's why we have, for example, companies that sell high-end shit at high prices and companies that sell low-end shit at low prices. Both are a niche. It's the same way with workforce treatment. There are places that have the competitive position of treating people like shit, not training them, and enduring the turnover. That is their plan.
You seem to have the very odd view that all companies will follow the same optimal strategy. It's wrong, and utterly simplistic. Companies can have different, valid strategies, and they're not going to follow someone else's if their own works too.
Sounds sorta Darwinistic...
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