Wall Street Journal Backs Up Obama Administration Claims on Benghazi

More evidence that the outrage is fake
Politics • Views: 28,173

The latest report about the Benghazi attack further drives home the point that the right’s unrelenting attempts to claim there was a “cover-up” are simply dishonest, trumped up, and false: Intelligence Stressed Libya Protest Scenario.

WASHINGTON—President Barack Obama was told in his daily intelligence briefing for more than a week after the consulate siege in Benghazi that the assault grew out of a spontaneous protest, despite conflicting reports from witnesses and other sources that began to cast doubt on the accuracy of that assessment almost from the start.

New details about the contents of the President’s Daily Brief, which haven’t been reported previously, show that the Central Intelligence Agency didn’t adjust the classified assessment until Sept. 22, fueling tensions between the administration and the agency.

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123 comments
1 Targetpractice  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:20:14pm

But...but...UN!

2 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:22:54pm

Damn subscription firewall.

3 erik_t  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:23:04pm

Well, obviously this is just more proof that the media is a bunch of liberal America-haters.

4 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:24:06pm

via google to get around it
[Link: www.google.com...]

5 Targetpractice  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:26:59pm

One of the running wingnut memes since the Biden/Ryan debate is how the administration threw the intelligence agencies "under the bus" and that they'd get their "revenge" by revealing the "truth" of Benghazi.

6 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:30:32pm

re: #5 Targetpractice

One of the running wingnut memes since the Biden/Ryan debate is how the administration threw the intelligence agencies "under the bus" and that they'd get their "revenge" by revealing the "truth" of Benghazi.

That's mentioned in the article....

Many intelligence officials are concerned by signs that the White House is placing blame on CIA, officials said. Comments during the Oct. 11 vice presidential debate by Vice President Joe Biden, who said that the White House presented information as provided by the intelligence community, were seen as criticism of the CIA.

"Biden threw it at the agency in the debate," said a former CIA official. "We're the whipping boy again."

There's plenty of blame to go around and everybody wants to cover their asses. Some people are going to get a bit touchy.

7 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:31:56pm

It seems the most recent assessment mentioned in the article concluded there was no protest.

Based on new information, the CIA developed on Sept. 20 its new assessment that there wasn't a protest directly preceding the attack and provided that information to top national security officials at the White House. It took until Saturday, Sept. 22, for the CIA to update the daily intelligence brief to refute the previous assessment. The new one concluded there was no protest.

8 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:33:03pm
CIA analysis was focused more on whether there was forewarning of the attack and who was behind it, a senior U.S. official said, adding that the question of a protest preceding the attack is the least important component of the analysis.

"What's getting lost is how small this change actually was….It doesn't matter whether there were protests ongoing at the time," the senior U.S. official said, adding that the analysis reflected from the beginning that "the attack was conducted by terrorists and most likely inspired by events in Cairo."

9 wrenchwench  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:33:59pm

Last week I had the unfortunate need to debunk an outrageous outrage:

Candy Crowley just happened to have the transcript of Obama's Rose Garden statement at the debate!!!1

...and I found my best debunking material at the WSJ.

[...]

If Obama and Crowley were in cahoots, why did Crowley begin the exchange with a very sharp question to the president, and why did she end it by acknowledging that Romney was right, as she later put it, "in the main"? We can't imagine a good answer. Such a dance, if that's what it was, would have to be elaborately choreographed, and it could easily have gone wrong for Obama if Romney had declined the bait of Obama's Rose Garden claim.

But a nonconspiracy theory raises a big question, too: How would Obama have known to expect support from Crowley on this point? We think we've found the answer.

Yesterday Tony Lee of Breitbart.com dug up a transcript of the Sept. 30 episode of "State of the Union," which included an interview with David Axelrod of the Obama campaign. The two had an exchange on this very topic:

Crowley: There's a back and forth now about why didn't this administration--why did it take them until Friday after a Sept. 11 attack in Libya to come to the conclusion that it was premeditated and that there was terrorists involved. John McCain said it doesn't pass the smell test, or it's willful ignorance to think that they didn't know before this what was going on. Your reaction?

Axelrod: Well, first of all, Candy, as you know, the president called it an act of terror the day after it happened.

Crowley wasn't buying what Axelrod was selling. "First, they said it was not planned, it was part of this tape. All that stuff. . . . didn't the administration shoot first? Didn't they come out and say, listen, as far as we can tell, this wasn't preplanned, this was just a part of"--at which point Axelrod interrupted her.

Lee writes: "This was Crowley the journalist, unlike the pro-Obama advocate who moderated Tuesday's debate." If one accepts this characterization, the conspiracy theory makes even less sense. Why would Crowley the journalist, having been granted a rare opportunity to appear before an audience of tens of millions, use it to throw away her integrity?

Here's what almost certainly happened: After the interview, Axelrod, or someone else from the campaign, called Crowley's attention to the White House transcript. She read the relevant portion and conceded that Axelrod was right: Obama had called the attack an act of terror. As we wrote yesterday, such an interpretation was reasonable, although it was a matter of opinion because the president's statement was ambiguous. Obama was briefed on all this during his debate preparation.

[...]

although they still say Obama arranged all this and used her.

If this surmise is correct, then Crowley knew about the "acts of terror" Easter egg hidden in Obama's Sept. 12 speech, and Obama knew she knew. Romney did not know and was as incredulous as Crowley had been, because the administration had spent weeks peddling the claim that the video dunnit. Obama brought the matter up expecting incredulity from Romney and backup from Crowley. She therefore unwittingly played her role in Obama's little ambush of his opponent. She was just clarifying the facts--or so Axelrod & Co. had led her to believe.

I don't know why people don't blame those responsible for keeping Romney briefed. The whole thing was all over the internet for days before the last debate.

10 researchok  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:35:49pm

re: #2 Killgore Trout

copy the headline into the google news search box

11 Targetpractice  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:36:35pm

re: #6 Killgore Trout

That's mentioned in the article....

There's plenty of blame to go around and everybody wants to cover their asses. Some people are going to get a bit touchy.

Thing is, the blame isn't about the attack so much as the reporting of it, something that was directly influenced by the CIA's briefings. Arguing that they're now being used as a "scapegoat" ignores that reality.

12 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:37:02pm

I don't see why the attack can't been seen as a form of protest in and of itself, particularly since evidence indicates that the individuals involved in the attack had been discussing the anti-Islamic vid prior to the attack.

13 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:38:48pm

Okay, have to remember to remain cool when dealing with Destro.

I get the feeling he's some sort of Authoritarian Left fan. Believing in the ideals of Old-Fashioned Scandinavian-Style Social Democracy, I despise that.

14 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:39:34pm

re: #12 Velvet Elvis

I don't see why the attack can't been seen as a form of protest in and of itself, particularly since evidence indicates that the individuals involved in the attack had been discussing the anti-Islamic vid prior to the attack.

The attackers themselves said at press conferences that they did it in retaliation for the video, as reported by the New York Times.

15 Targetpractice  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:39:55pm

re: #12 Velvet Elvis

I don't see why the attack can't been seen as a form of protest in and of itself, particularly since evidence indicates that the individuals involved in the attack had been discussing the anti-Islamic vid prior to the attack.

There's so many elements to this incident that seem contradictory, such as the arguments that the whole thing couldn't be spontaneous due to suggestions by Libyan officials that it was "planned," or the argument that a terrorist attack couldn't be inspired by the video.

16 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:41:10pm

re: #7 Killgore Trout

I think that the attack was like the equivalent of 2nd Degree Murder.

That is to say, not pre-meditated, but wanting to do something, and waiting for an opportunity to use cover.

17 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:41:25pm

re: #14 Charles Johnson

The attackers themselves said at press conferences that they did it in retaliation for the video, as reported by the New York Times.

Right, I couldn't remember where it was said. I don't see how that makes it possible to say there was no protest when the attack itself was in protest of the video.

18 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:42:01pm

re: #9 wrenchwench

Last week I had the unfortunate need to debunk an outrageous outrage:

...

I don't know why people don't blame those responsible for keeping Romney briefed. The whole thing was all over the internet for days before the last debate.

Zingers. Top priority for a President = Zingers.

19 darthstar  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:42:54pm

But Mitt Romney released a statement within hours of the attack saying the president was siding with the attackers!

One of these men, Mitt Romney or President Obama, can be trusted in crisis situations. (Hint: It ain't the white guy.)

20 researchok  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:43:19pm

re: #12 Velvet Elvis

For sure- but the question of timing muddies the waters.

CJ noted in a previous post it was possible for the attack to be both a protest and premeditated.

I would say that is probably the best insight.

21 Interesting Times  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:43:21pm
22 Joanne  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:43:22pm

re: #9 wrenchwench

Here's MY conspiracy theory. Crowley saved Romney's ass from looking worse had he continued down that road of complete ignorance - only to have a new campaign ad by the Obama camp with his debate foot-in-mouth side-by-side with what Obama said, and then some of Romney's follies overseas, showing Romney to be completely devoid of not just ANY foreign policy chops, but downright dangerous. Let's throw in a couple of Romney's advisors into that ad: Bolton who wants to bomb virtually every country on earth, Senor, Abrams. Shit, the campaign ads write themselves.

23 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:46:16pm

re: #20 researchok

For sure- but the question of timing muddies the waters.

CJ noted in a previous post it was possible for the attack to be both a protest and premeditated.

I would say that is probably the best insight.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm getting at.

24 celticdragon  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:46:56pm

re: #13 ProGunLiberal

Okay, have to remember to remain cool when dealing with Destro.

I get the feeling he's some sort of Authoritarian Left fan. Believing in the ideals of Old-Fashioned Scandinavian-Style Social Democracy, I despise that.

Disagreement does not have to rancorous. Many of my liberal friends are anti-gun. I am not (I own a Brown Bess musket, a Winchester .30-30, a semi auto .22 plinking rifle, a WW I 1917 Eddystone .30-06, a detachable magazine SKS assault rifle and a semi auto Tommygun.)

In any event, most of them know my position and I know theirs, and that does not get in the way of still working together on other things we agree on.

25 Targetpractice  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:49:12pm

re: #19 darthstar

But Mitt Romney released a statement within hours of the attack saying the president was siding with the attackers!

One of these men, Mitt Romney or President Obama, can be trusted in crisis situations. (Hint: It ain't the white guy.)

Oh, you can be sure the argument will change, either tonight or before Election Day. Current guess? He'll argue that he was still "right" because Obama "apologized," something America should never do.

26 wrenchwench  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:49:16pm

re: #22 Joanne (JustJay)

Here's MY conspiracy theory. Crowley saved Romney's ass from looking worse had he continued down that road of complete ignorance - only to have a new campaign ad by the Obama camp with his debate foot-in-mouth side-by-side with what Obama said, and then some of Romney's follies overseas, showing Romney to be completely devoid of not just ANY foreign policy chops, but downright dangerous. Let's throw in a couple of Romney's advisors into that ad: Bolton who wants to bomb virtually every country on earth, Senor, Abrams. Shit, the campaign ads write themselves.

Good point. How much worse would would Romney have suffered if Candy hadn't pulled his foot out of his mouth then?

27 Interesting Times  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:50:35pm

re: #26 wrenchwench

Good point. How much worse would would Romney have suffered if Candy hadn't pulled his foot out of his mouth then?

He wouldn't have. Look at how much lying he got away with in Debate 1. If it's not called out right then and there, it might as well not get called out at all, unfortunately.

28 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:50:50pm

re: #24 celticdragon

You are correct on that. However, once one goes far enough, there is a line though, you know?

And I am jealous of your gun collection. :P

29 wrenchwench  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:52:24pm

re: #27 Interesting Times

He wouldn't have. Look at how much lying he got away with in Debate 1. If it's not called out right then and there, it might as well not get called out at all, unfortunately.

What's this? Cynicism???

///

30 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:54:34pm

But, but, but..........the media told me that black voter turnout would be down because we are unenthusiastic this year. Could they be wrong?

31 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:54:36pm

re: #16 ProGunLiberal

I think that the attack was like the equivalent of 2nd Degree Murder.

That is to say, not pre-meditated, but wanting to do something, and waiting for an opportunity to use cover.

True. The actual attacks did go to the embassy to protest, they came to kill. You don't bring RPG-7s to protest something. So while this may not have been premeditated, it sure as Hell was a deliberate assault.

32 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:55:48pm

re: #17 Velvet Elvis

IMHO-
It's worth drawing a line between a protest as in angry crowd, signs, chants and burnings in effigy- and a heavy weapon assault like mortars and RPG's. "In protest" sure, "a protest" just does not include rockets in the usual sense of the term.

Early days included the report from the Libyan President that there was no protest, there was a pre planned assault. I'm sure he meant "protest" in the usual angry crowd sense.

33 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:56:38pm

re: #9 wrenchwench

Crowley stated that she was pretty sure that the Libya question would come up and had purposefully studied up to make sure she would be as informed as possible on the issue.

34 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:56:48pm

re: #32 Daniel Ballard

IMHO-
It's worth drawing a line between a protest as in angry crowd, signs, chants and burnings in effigy- and a heavy weapon assault like mortars and RPG's. "In protest" sure, "a protest" just does not include rockets in the usual sense of the term.

Early days included the report from the Libyan President that there was no protest, there was a pre planned assault. I'm sure he meant "protest" in the usual angry crowd sense.

That's the worthwhile point. It's a hard point to fit into spoken words, though.

BBIAB

35 Gus  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:57:31pm

Image: Twitchy-Malkin.gif

36 Targetpractice  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:58:09pm

re: #32 Daniel Ballard

IMHO-
It's worth drawing a line between a protest as in angry crowd, signs, chants and burnings in effigy- and a heavy weapon assault like mortars and RPG's. "In protest" sure, "a protest" just does not include rockets in the usual sense of the term.

Early days included the report from the Libyan President that there was no protest, there was a pre planned assault. I'm sure he meant "protest" in the usual angry crowd sense.

The Libyan president is pretty much the authority in some wingnut circles. He keeps getting cited as "proof" that the attack was either Al-Q or by "Al-Q types," despite his having every reason to lie and blame the attack on outsiders who he has absolutely no control over.

37 erik_t  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:58:11pm

re: #32 Daniel Ballard

IMHO-
It's worth drawing a line between a protest as in angry crowd, signs, chants and burnings in effigy- and a heavy weapon assault like mortars and RPG's. "In protest" sure, "a protest" just does not include rockets in the usual sense of the term.

Any attempt to be so precise with the written or spoken word is doomed to failure. Better not to construct arguments so needing of stringent parsing that 'a' versus 'the' results in shrieking freakouts and vicious anger.

38 Joanne  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:58:29pm

re: #30 moderatelyradicalliberal

And I am sure those CEO's who are telling their employees how to vote are going to drive people to Obama, too. Especially if their bosses are assholes to start.

39 Interesting Times  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:58:40pm

Yay! Rage against the machine angry old white guys!

40 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:59:14pm

re: #31 Dark_Falcon

Exactly. Deliberate, but not pre-meditated, if that makes any sense.

Fortunately, the attack did teach us that Libya is a very good ally, in their response. Better than Pakistan. And many others.

41 funky chicken  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:59:50pm

I just got a Romney robo-call about Libya. His campaign has no shame.

42 darthstar  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:59:50pm

Susan Tedeschi - of the Tedeschi-Trucks band (she's married to Derek Trucks - guitar god) - just belted out a beautiful national anthem for Game 7 of the Giants/Cards game. I gave up my tickets for one of my season ticket group pals who opted out of the post-season (I can be a generous fucker...my pre-sale $75 tickets would have sold for over $200 each on stubhub)...that's okay...I'm willing to watch on TV for an hour (and hope we have a big enough lead I can enjoy President Obama taking the wood to Mitt Romney in the debate a bit too.

43 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 4:59:59pm

re: #39 Interesting Times

Yay! Rage against the machine angry old white guys!

[Embedded content]

But, but, but.....the media told me young people wouldn't vote this time either! Could all of the middle aged white male 1% news pundits be wrong too?

44 darthstar  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:00:38pm

re: #25 Targetpractice

Oh, you can be sure the argument will change, either tonight or before Election Day. Current guess? He'll argue that he was still "right" because Obama "apologized," something America should never do.

President Obama should open the debate by apologizing for his opponent. "I'm sorry you have to choose between this piece of shit and myself..."

45 wrenchwench  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:00:55pm

re: #33 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

Crowley stated that she was pretty sure that the Libya question would come up and had purposefully studied up to make sure she would be as informed as possible on the issue.

Sounds like a professional. She sure as hell did better than Jim Lehrer. I hope Bob Schieffer does a decent job.

46 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:01:17pm

re: #39 Interesting Times

Yay! Rage against the machine angry old white guys!

[Embedded content]

ahem. Angry old white Alabama guy already voted for re-election. So did herself.

47 celticdragon  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:01:18pm

re: #28 ProGunLiberal

You are correct on that. However, once one goes far enough, there is a line though, you know?

And I am jealous of your gun collection. :P

LOL! I just got done with a complete tear down and cleaning of my Bess (She is a 2nd Land Pattern model). The Camden Battle debacle re-enactment is coming up in two weeks and I will be there with a Continental line unit getting surrounded by the Brits while the militia run away and General Gates abandons us to our fate...

48 darthstar  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:01:23pm

re: #39 Interesting Times

Yay! Rage against the machine angry old white guys!

[Embedded content]

In North Carolina, a .2% increase in young voters could make the difference.

49 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:01:31pm

re: #41 funky chicken

I just got a Romney robo-call about Libya. His campaign has no shame.

I don't even know why they think this matters as a voting issue. Nobody is going to vote on this. Nobody.

50 Joanne  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:01:35pm

re: #35 Gus

Image: Twitchy-Malkin.gif

EEEEEEK! That scared me. I think I am going to have nightmares. ;-)

51 Targetpractice  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:01:44pm

re: #40 ProGunLiberal

Exactly. Deliberate, but not pre-meditated, if that makes any sense.

Fortunately, the attack did teach us that Libya is a very good ally, in their response. Better than Pakistan. And many others.

Ayep. In Libya, the people took to the streets and demanded the militias be disbanded.

In Egypt, we didn't see troops in front of our embassy until after Obama made his "neither friend nor enemy" comment and a phone call to their president.

52 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:01:58pm

re: #32 Daniel Ballard

IMHO-
It's worth drawing a line between a protest as in angry crowd, signs, chants and burnings in effigy- and a heavy weapon assault like mortars and RPG's. "In protest" sure, "a protest" just does not include rockets in the usual sense of the term.

Early days included the report from the Libyan President that there was no protest, there was a pre planned assault. I'm sure he meant "protest" in the usual angry crowd sense.

Following the civil war, Libya is overflowing with military grade weaponry. It's not inconceivable that some people would take along some RPGs "just in case." A violent attack this would also likely seem much less extreme in a war-torn country than it would in one that hasn't had a domestic war in many generations.

53 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:02:24pm

re: #48 darthstar

In North Carolina, a .2% increase in young voters could make the difference.

It sure could when Obama only won the state bu 14,000 votes in 2008.

54 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:02:51pm

re: #32 Daniel Ballard

IMHO-
It's worth drawing a line between a protest as in angry crowd, signs, chants and burnings in effigy- and a heavy weapon assault like mortars and RPG's. "In protest" sure, "a protest" just does not include rockets in the usual sense of the term.

Early days included the report from the Libyan President that there was no protest, there was a pre planned assault. I'm sure he meant "protest" in the usual angry crowd sense.

Also paying close attention the the wording might have some clues here. The intelligence reports claims "the attack was conducted by terrorists and most likely inspired by events in Cairo." So basically they probably weren't necessarily motivated by the video itself but saw the protests in Cairo and thought they'd join in the fun.

55 celticdragon  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:02:57pm

re: #41 funky chicken

I just got a Romney robo-call about Libya. His campaign has no shame.

Shame requires self awareness. Romneybot 2012 has not reached that level of AI sophisitication.

56 Joanne  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:03:02pm

re: #44 darthstar

President Obama should open the debate by apologizing for his opponent. "I'm sorry you have to choose between this piece of shit and myself..."

Ok, if it wasn't the presidency at stake, and if it wasn't that uber liar Romney as the Other, I would pay big bucks to see that. That would be freaking AWESOME!

57 darthstar  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:03:29pm

re: #53 moderatelyradicalliberal

It sure could when Obama only won the state bu 14,000 votes in 2008.

And if there's anything Republicans hate, it's voter turnout.

58 Gus  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:03:50pm
59 darthstar  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:04:11pm

re: #56 Joanne

Ok, if it wasn't the presidency at stake, and if it wasn't that uber liar Romney as the Other, I would pay big bucks to see that. That would be freaking AWESOME!

Maybe he could do it on election night...just a little twist of the knife. I think he's earned it.

60 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:04:50pm

re: #57 darthstar

And if there's anything Republicans hate, it's voter turnout.

And boy have they proven it. Do they even realize how long their attempt at voter suppression will be remembered by they people they tried to keep from voting?

61 Targetpractice  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:04:59pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

Also paying close attention the the wording might have some clues here. The intelligence reports claims "the attack was conducted by terrorists and most likely inspired by events in Cairo." So basically they probably weren't necessarily motivated by the video itself but saw the protests in Cairo and thought they'd join in the fun.

Possible. But again, trying to screen out the noise in the initial hours was a task that was not going to be quick or definitive. Saying that the White House "took too long" to drop the protests angle ignores the reality that, in man cases like this, it can take days before you even begin to put together a reliable picture.

62 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:05:36pm

re: #51 Targetpractice

When one particular protest well. I was going to a conference for ESRI's ArcGIS up in Denver. When I left the house, the protest was starting in Benghazi......

When I get back, I find out that many of the men in the riot decided to go and storm those militias' HQs. I have always thought I am missing a reel of film about how things went from "Peaceful Protests" to "Let's Sack the Militia HQs!"

63 celticdragon  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:06:04pm

re: #56 Joanne

Ok, if it wasn't the presidency at stake, and if it wasn't that uber liar Romney as the Other, I would pay big bucks to see that. That would be freaking AWESOME!

I would laugh like hell, but Obama will never say anything that detracts from the dignity of the Presidency (although Big Dog Bill Clinton might have said something to that effect with a wink and a grin...)

64 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:06:14pm

re: #56 Joanne

Ok, if it wasn't the presidency at stake, and if it wasn't that uber liar Romney as the Other, I would pay big bucks to see that. That would be freaking AWESOME!

After Obama leaves office on January 20, 2017, he will be free to write a tell-all book. I look forward to reading about what he really thought about Willard and the GOP in general.

65 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:06:24pm

re: #36 Targetpractice

Yes he said the things that were easiest to seize upon and taken as evidence the President and or Susan Rice got it wrong, cover up, whatever. But given his sheer lack of ties to our domestic politics (apart from perhaps not wanting to piss off President Obama to keep the aid coming) he is not responsible for what the GOP hacks did with his words. We had his statement, Clintons mention of possible AQ ties etc. Lots of contrary indications at the time quite apart from the RW freak out and their pet blogs pontifications.

Taking militants word over the Libyan sitting President turned out right. Which is not really what one would expect though is it? Islamic militant credibility is a surprise not a good expectation in general.

A GOP freak out about a thing does not make that thing impossible. They might be wrong, they might be making it up they might just be overly outraged over a real error.

66 celticdragon  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:07:15pm

re: #60 moderatelyradicalliberal

And boy have they proven it. Do they even realize how long their attempt at voter suppression will be remembered by they people they tried to keep from voting?

They do not care. This is the crowd that will shoot their future prospects in the foot to make the quarterly report look better. Long term thinking is not a strong point here.

67 Joanne  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:07:36pm

re: #64 moderatelyradicalliberal

After Obama leaves office on January 20, 2017, he will be free to write a tell-all book. I look forward to reading about what he really thought about Willard and the GOP in general.

Do you really think Obama would do that? I don't think he would. I have never seen him with anything less than total decorum. Sadly. ;-)

68 b_sharp  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:07:51pm

When does the debate happen?

69 darthstar  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:07:52pm

Why didn't Chris Wallace get to moderate a debate? Why didn't Sean Hannity? Bill O'Reilly? Megyn Kelly? Rush Limbaugh?

CONSPEARASSY!

70 Interesting Times  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:08:05pm

Hmmm...

71 Killgore Trout  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:08:14pm

re: #61 Targetpractice

Possible. But again, trying to screen out the noise in the initial hours was a task that was not going to be quick or definitive. Saying that the White House "took too long" to drop the protests angle ignores the reality that, in man cases like this, it can take days before you even begin to put together a reliable picture.

...and even the final picture is still plenty murky and doesn't lend itself to soundbites and simple explanations.

72 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:08:20pm

re: #68 Gangnam Style

When does the debate happen?

8PM Central.

73 Joanne  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:08:37pm

re: #66 celticdragon

They do not care. This is the crowd that will shoot their future prospects in the foot to make the quarterly report look better. Long term thinking is not a strong point here.

They seriously live in their own bubble of insanity. If the GOP loses Latinos, as it appears they will, they are done as a party. Period.

74 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:08:39pm

re: #67 Joanne

Agree. Obama is too polite for that.

75 darthstar  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:08:56pm

Wow...Romney won BOTH coin tosses tonight. He gets to go first AND he gets to go last. So what? President Obama will tear him up in the middle.

76 darthstar  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:09:18pm

Matt Cain opens with a K

77 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:09:23pm

re: #67 Joanne

Do you really think Obama would do that? I don't think he would. I have never seen him with anything less than total decorum. Sadly. ;-)

I don't know that he would either. I'm just fantasizing.

78 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:09:26pm

re: #52 Velvet Elvis

Maybe I'm wrong but I had thought militias try to jealously hold on to that kind of powerful weaponry to use themselves and keep from their enemies. Would your average guy even know how to operate a mortar or RPG accurately without a fair amount of training and practice?

79 freetoken  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:09:37pm

I wouldn't be surprised if Romney wins. Remember, in 2008 Obama lost WV, a state that usually swings strongly Democratic party, but not for Obama (because he's black? or is it the coal thing?)

Anyway, I'm afraid that not enough of the young will turn out to give Obama the edge in 2012 that they gave him in 2008. There just isn't that vibe, that energy, pulsing through the under 30 crowd that there was in 2008.

80 b_sharp  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:09:46pm

re: #75 darthstar

Wow...Romney won BOTH coin tosses tonight. He gets to go first AND he gets to go last. So what? President Obama will tear him up in the middle.

How about the coin toss for standing on your head?

81 Targetpractice  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:09:56pm

re: #65 Daniel Ballard

Yes he said the things that were easiest to seize upon and taken as evidence the President and or Susan Rice got it wrong, cover up, whatever. But given his sheer lack of ties to our domestic politics (apart from perhaps not wanting to piss off President Obama to keep the aid coming) he is not responsible for what the GOP hacks did with his words. We had his statement, Clintons mention of possible AQ ties etc. Lots of contrary indications at the time quite apart from the RW freak out and their pet blogs pontifications.

Taking militants word over the Libyan sitting President turned out right. Which is not really what one would expect though is it? Islamic militant credibility is a surprise not a good expectation in general.

A GOP freak out about a thing does not make that thing impossible. They might be wrong, they might be making it up they might just be overly outraged over a real error.

Thing is, this is becoming as politicized as 9/11, in a GOP-led effort to turn this into something they can counter OBL's death with. That is really what a large part of this is about, finding some way to neutralize Obama's record concerning Al-Q and its leaders. The angle they've chosen is to argue that Benghazi was totally Al-Q, that the attack happening on 9/11 was the biggest sign, and that Obama is trying to cover that up to prevent people from finding out how he was "asleep at the wheel."

82 Sionainn  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:09:58pm

re: #22 Joanne

Here's MY conspiracy theory. Crowley saved Romney's ass from looking worse had he continued down that road of complete ignorance - only to have a new campaign ad by the Obama camp with his debate foot-in-mouth side-by-side with what Obama said, and then some of Romney's follies overseas, showing Romney to be completely devoid of not just ANY foreign policy chops, but downright dangerous. Let's throw in a couple of Romney's advisors into that ad: Bolton who wants to bomb virtually every country on earth, Senor, Abrams. Shit, the campaign ads write themselves.

That was my take as well. Crowley seemed positively apologetic as she corrected Romney.

83 Joanne  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:10:15pm

re: #77 moderatelyradicalliberal

I don't know that he would either. I'm just fantasizing.

Ok, we'll mentally masturbate together. ;-)

84 Interesting Times  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:11:05pm

re: #79 freetoken

Anyway, I'm afraid that not enough of the young will turn out to give Obama the edge in 2012 that they gave him in 2008. There just isn't that vibe, that energy, pulsing through the under 30 crowd that there was in 2008.

Er...did you read upthread?

85 b_sharp  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:11:20pm

re: #83 Joanne

Ok, we'll mentally masturbate together. ;-)

Women...

86 celticdragon  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:11:35pm

And for something completely different:

Go Army! Beat Navy!

Youtube Video
87 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:11:36pm

re: #78 Daniel Ballard

Agreed. If you heard about the accounts of the eventual rescue, you realize these guys were unusually well trained. Probably better trained than many of the militias.

They just took advantage of a situation that developed. Not really planned or pre-meditated, but well executed.

88 alpuz  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:11:51pm

Oh how I hope the Giants take down the Cardinals. I have a wonderful memory of trying to talk the lady sitting next to me into being ok with booing La Russa at Miller Park. She eventually gave in.. emancipating.

89 Interesting Times  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:12:10pm

re: #75 darthstar

Wow...Romney won BOTH coin tosses tonight. He gets to go first AND he gets to go last. So what? President Obama will tear him up in the middle.

90 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:12:34pm

re: #79 freetoken

I wouldn't be surprised if Romney wins. Remember, in 2008 Obama lost WV, a state that usually swings strongly Democratic party, but not for Obama (because he's black? or is it the coal thing?)

Anyway, I'm afraid that not enough of the young will turn out to give Obama the edge in 2012 that they gave him in 2008. There just isn't that vibe, that energy, pulsing through the under 30 crowd that there was in 2008.

Actually, Kerry and Gore lost WV in 2004 and 2000. WV had already gone red. As far as the young goes. Turnout for blacks and Hispanics is already higher then it was in 2008 in early voting and for the record, we are generally younger.

91 Joanne  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:12:59pm

re: #85 Gangnam Style

Women...

You rang? (and I am not even in a binder!)

92 freetoken  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:13:00pm

re: #84 Interesting Times

Er...did you read upthread?

.2% ??

US population has grown around 4% over 4 years. Why isn't the increase in early voting among the young up 20x what is being reported?

93 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:13:33pm

re: #81 Targetpractice

Three things going on-1. The GOP exploitation
2. Most of the rest of us just trying to sort it out.
3.Of course some pro Obama voters are very anxious to minimize any errors real or perceived from Obama in this atmosphere of a close race.

94 Tigger2  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:14:13pm

re: #30 moderatelyradicalliberal

But, but, but..........the media told me that black voter turnout would be down because we are unenthusiastic this year. Could they be wrong?

[Embedded content]

I'm not really surprised it's up with the way Obama has been treated the last 4 years. I would have been very surprised if it was down from '08'

95 freetoken  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:14:28pm

And, just because early voting is up (a little bit) that does not mean total voting is up.

We'll see come 2 weeks.

96 Targetpractice  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:14:53pm

re: #93 Daniel Ballard

Three things going on-1. The GOP exploitation
2. Most of the rest of us just trying to sort it out.
3.Of course some pro Obama voters are very anxious to minimize any errors real or perceived from Obama in this atmosphere of a close race.

Okay, I won't argue that there's minimization going on, but at the same time, how much can really be blamed on Obama if it never reaches his desk. Yeah, we can go "He's responsible for those under his command," but that's different from "He turned down security requests!"

97 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:15:02pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

So basically they probably weren't necessarily motivated by the video itself but saw the protests in Cairo and thought they'd join in the fun.

They said very specifically that the attacks were in retaliation for the video. I don't see any reason not to believe them. Why would they lie?

98 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:16:31pm

re: #97 Charles Johnson

Not that I disagree, but I think they were looking for an excuse. They found it.

Fortunately for us, they misjudged Sentiment towards the US in Libya.

99 Joanne  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:16:58pm

re: #89 Interesting Times

[Embedded content]

What is with TWO coin tosses to go first and last? Is this something new? I've never heard of anything like this.

100 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:18:28pm

re: #95 freetoken

And, just because early voting is up (a little bit) that does not mean total voting is up.

We'll see come 2 weeks.

Actually it's quite a big deal. Early voting is when Obama racked up his wins in several states. For example, on the day of the election back in 2008 more people voted for John McCain then Obama in Iowa. It was early voting that gave Obama the edge.

Also a .2% increase among young people in NC is a BFD when the margin a victory last time was only .32%.

101 recusancy  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:18:56pm

Anybody know where I can stream/watch the debate from the beginning but after it's already started?

102 darthstar  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:19:49pm

re: #99 Joanne

What is with TWO coin tosses to go first and last? Is this something new? I've never heard of anything like this.

Romney won first question last debate, but got his ass handed to him on the closing. He wanted to hedge his bets (you know how the Mormons love gambling) and so there were two coin tosses. Apparently, a gentleman's agreement of one goes first, the other goes last doesn't apply to foreign policy discussions.

103 Decatur Deb  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:20:11pm

re: #60 moderatelyradicalliberal

And boy have they proven it. Do they even realize how long their attempt at voter suppression will be remembered by they people they tried to keep from voting?

Some long memories there. Some people around here still keep their poll tax receipts.

104 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:20:26pm

re: #96 Targetpractice

Do you recall my speculation? It was wrong but did not presume a misdeed on the part of Obama. I thought he wanted to deny AQ their anniversary propaganda. Wishful thinking maybe. I do not agree with the GOP hyperventilation and outrage.

105 darthstar  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:20:47pm

re: #101 recusancy

Anybody know where I can stream/watch the debate from the beginning but after it's already started?

SiriusXM - you can rewind and listen (not watch) MSNBC or Fox or CNN there.

106 Iwouldprefernotto  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:20:56pm

Prediction for an Obama Zinger.

Hey Mitt, having huge bank accounts in Switzerland and the Cayman islands does not make you an expert on foreign policy.

A guy can hope.

107 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:21:15pm

re: #37 erik_t

Any attempt to be so precise with the written or spoken word is doomed to failure. Better not to construct arguments so needing of stringent parsing that 'a' versus 'the' results in shrieking freakouts and vicious anger.

Doesn't really matter in a time when people argue "acts of terror" has multiple vague meanings, none of which equate to "terrorism," and do it with a straight face.

108 Targetpractice  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:21:31pm

re: #104 Daniel Ballard

Do you recall my speculation? It was wrong but did not presume a misdeed on the part of Obama. I thought he wanted to deny AQ their anniversary propaganda. Wishful thinking maybe. I do not agree with the GOP hyperventilation and outrage.

Probably should have reworded better, I wasn't accusing you, but speaking instead towards wingnuts I've been hearing for weeks now.

109 Gus  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:21:59pm
110 recusancy  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:22:25pm

re: #105 darthstar

SiriusXM - you can rewind and listen (not watch) MSNBC or Fox or CNN there.

Thanks, but looking for something with video.

111 PhillyPretzel  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:23:25pm

re: #110 recusancy

Try your local PBS station. They are the ones who are televising it.

112 Joanne  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:23:36pm

re: #102 darthstar

Romney won first question last debate, but got his ass handed to him on the closing. He wanted to hedge his bets (you know how the Mormons love gambling) and so there were two coin tosses. Apparently, a gentleman's agreement of one goes first, the other goes last doesn't apply to foreign policy discussions.

Well, it's true that Romney is anything but a gentleman.

113 Targetpractice  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:24:02pm

Thing that's also getting to me now is that the administration is basically locked into the terrorism angle. If they try to start arguing that it was primarily due to the video again, the GOP will jump on it and accuse him of "revisionism." Obama can't set the record straight without being seen as denying the "truth."

114 Tea Party Pooper  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:25:25pm

Romney was known as the guy who would say anything to close a business deal, and he brings the same lack of probity to his presidential bid. Unless you are part of a monied elite to whom he intends to pander, Romney's plans for you and your family are de facto slave labour for Chinese wages, with the social safety net replaced by a pool of sharks.

115 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:25:34pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

Also paying close attention the the wording might have some clues here. The intelligence reports claims "the attack was conducted by terrorists and most likely inspired by events in Cairo." So basically they probably weren't necessarily motivated by the video itself but saw the protests in Cairo and thought they'd join in the fun.

That is more or less what the "intercepted conversations" between the militia leaders, which unnamed sources claim the CIA have, say is the case. Unfortunately there is no way to source or verify these claims currently.

116 makeitstop  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:26:37pm

Charles - I posted a few hours ago about this,but maybe you missed it.

For some reason, it looks like this page does not stop loading. Everything seems to be working okay, but the Win 7 'loading' icon next to the cursor hasn't gone away for about 3.5 hours now.

Using Win 7 and Chrome

117 PhillyPretzel  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:26:42pm

re: #110 recusancy

Here is a link from WHYY in Philly and I believe Charles will have a link too. [Link: www.whyy.org...]

118 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:27:55pm

re: #109 Gus

I have a quibble with one of those things-How does Think Progress know how far Iran has gone with enrichment? Better intel than the often thwarted IAEA? Better to say no evidence has yet been found of enrichment to 90+% or find another factoid. oops there is some evidence if not quite conclusive
[Link: www.reuters.com...]

119 recusancy  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:29:38pm

re: #117 PhillyPretzel

Here is a link from WHYY in Philly and I believe Charles will have a link too. [Link: www.whyy.org...]

That won't have the ability to start from the beginning thought will it? That's what I'm looking for. Something where I can start from the beginning but before the debate ends. I know there'll be videos everywhere after it's done. I just want to start an hour later then it actually starts.

120 Charles Johnson  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:32:09pm

re: #116 makeitstop

Charles - I posted a few hours ago about this,but maybe you missed it.

For some reason, it looks like this page does not stop loading. Everything seems to be working okay, but the Win 7 'loading' icon next to the cursor hasn't gone away for about 3.5 hours now.

Using Win 7 and Chrome

Just tested in Win 7/Chrome and can't duplicate the problem. The page finishes loading normally. It could be a network issue on your ISP's end.

121 7-y (Expectation of Great Things in Due Course)  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:34:44pm

re: #79 freetoken

Sad, but true, when I was 7 years old, in 1954, I thought the black kids who hung out in the basement of the apartment building next door were covered in coal dust. Not a terribly stupid thing to think, given that I had to get up and shovel coal at wee hours in the morning—primary coal shoveler!

122 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:36:14pm

re: #40 ProGunLiberal

Exactly. Deliberate, but not pre-meditated, if that makes any sense.

Fortunately, the attack did teach us that Libya is a very good ally, in their response. Better than Pakistan. And many others.

That is damned true. They are actually trying to cope, while Pakistan blames everything but itself.

123 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Oct 22, 2012 5:48:44pm

re: #82 Sionainn

That was my take as well. Crowley seemed positively apologetic as she corrected Romney.

these media people are so afraid. used to be kudos for calling out a fact error.


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