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Laura Ingraham: Did “BHO” Push Out Petraeus to Keep Him Silent About Benghazi?

And… they’re off!
Wingnuts • Views: 36,519

You know how all the conservative pundits are writing columns about the right’s denial of reality, and how the Republican Party needs to shake off the kooks and conspiracy nuts?

Now watch as the entire right wing universe goes wacky about David Petraeus’s resignation, in unison, screaming “BENGHAZI BENGHAZI BENGHAZI!”

For example, here are the immediate reactions tweeted by Fox News commentator Laura Ingraham, Michelle Malkin’s twitchy.com, and Fox News owner Rupert Murdoch:

Jump to bottom

424 comments

1 erik_t  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:38:11pm

Conservatives don't want to think about why they lost, so they will go chase something shiny instead. I predict this will really, really help them figure out why things went south last Tuesday.

Oh wait just kidding they'll probably triple-down behind Rick Santorum.

2 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:38:13pm
3 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:39:10pm

Conspiracy theories oh how it's amusing to see them become so prevalent on the right with a Democratic president. Fucking morons.

4 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:39:35pm

Because when you fire someone and end their career, they're indebted to you and so will keep silent.

This is another one of those conspiracy theories that makes no sense even from the get-go. It's like the birther conspiracy. There'd be no reason for her to go to Kenya to have the kid if she wanted him to be an American citizen, she'd just stay in Hawaii, which is what she did. There'd be no reason to kick Petraeus out if you wanted him to keep a secret, but they asked for her resignation, so obviously they're not worried about anything he has on them.

Logic.

5 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:39:38pm

I called it. Knew it would be a new conspiracy as soon as it was announced.

6 Bulworth  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:39:57pm

This seems like a good direction for the RWNJ base to take. /

7 erik_t  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:40:33pm

re: #5 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

I called it. Knew it would be a new conspiracy as soon as it was announced.

In all fairness, this is getting to the point of predicting the rising of the morning sun.

8 Bulworth  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:41:08pm

Hey conservatives, there's a Fiscal Cliff thing and spending and taxes and stuff to agitate about.

9 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:42:34pm

re: #7 erik_t

Yeah, you have a point.

10 Bulworth  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:42:57pm

I think I figured out why Romneybot lost. All the conservatives were too busy crunching over the latest conspiracy on Benghazi to bother to vote.

11 S.D.  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:44:10pm

Hey Laura: That's POTUS to you Lady!

Ignoring the White Wing being OK with Adultery: David Petraeus’s resignation certainly won't stop him from testifying.

12 erik_t  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:44:12pm

re: #10 Bulworth

I think I figured out why Romneybot lost. All the conservatives were too busy crunching over the latest conspiracy on Benghazi to bother to vote.

ORCA is being repurposed as a vast conspiracy-theory-generation engine.

13 Bulworth  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:44:15pm

The Twitchy teabag movement to recapture the WH in 2016 is off to a promising start. //

14 Bulworth  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:45:22pm

re: #12 erik_t

ORCA is being repurposed as a vast conspiracy-theory-generation engine.

Obama's Chicago thugs controlled all the Intertubes and cell lines and stuff. /

15 JamesWI  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:45:32pm

LOL....that "jerrysrolling" troll thought his comment was so hilarious, he had to post it at other sites: David Petraeus Resigns Over Affair

jerrysrollinblogspotcom
a half hour ago

Bill Clinton, John Edwards , Jesse Jacksom, Have put him in for a medal !

16 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:45:48pm

re: #15 JamesWI

LOL....that "jerrysrolling" troll thought his comment was so hilarious, he had to post it at other sites: David Petraeus Resigns Over Affair

With typos preserved.

17 Ian G.  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:45:49pm

re: #4 Obdicut

Logic.

fucking how does it work?

18 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:46:19pm

Watch for the Petraeus conspiracy theory to be featured on Fox News very soon. It probably already is. I can't watch.

19 erik_t  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:47:22pm

re: #15 JamesWI

LOL....that "jerrysrolling" troll thought his comment was so hilarious, he had to post it at other sites: David Petraeus Resigns Over Affair

I DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT THIS MEANS

20 Gus  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:48:09pm
21 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:49:41pm

re: #18 Charles Johnson

Watch for the Petraeus conspiracy theory to be featured on Fox News very soon. It probably already is. I can't watch.

[Embedded content]

oh geeze, another nontroversy for the loons on facebook.

22 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:49:52pm

Sense this makes not. Co-conspirator piss-off you do not. Silence not more likely this makes. Nutjobs the rightwing pundits are.

23 funky chicken  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:50:04pm

Maybe Mrs. Petraeus would prefer to have these idiots shut the hell up. Yes, this is how right-wingers support military spouses.

24 Gus  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:50:36pm

Once again.

Benghazi.

25 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:51:04pm

Update on that fake "hate crime" story a while back
Husband Held in Killing of Iraqi-American Woman

Police on Friday announced the arrest of the husband of an Iraqi-American woman whose beating death last March initially raised fears of a hate crime.

Kassim al-Himidi was booked on suspicion of murder in the death of 32-year-old Shaima Alawadi in her home, El Cajon police Chief Jim Redman told a news conference.

The killing drew international attention after the victim's daughter told reporters she found a note by her mother's body that said, "Go back to your country, you terrorist."

Redman said there are no other suspects.

26 Ian G.  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:51:07pm

I understand the rage on the right over Benghazi. They were always the party of national security until the Iraq fiasco. Then Obama nailed bin Laden and got us out of Iraq, so they're clawing desperately at something, ANYTHING, that could make Obama look weak on national security. Unfortunately for them, it just makes them look like unhinged fools. And because of the same echo chamber in which Romney was going to win in a landslide, they'll never shut up about this.

27 Jaerik  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:51:50pm

Nevermind that firing someone is pretty much the exact opposite way to keep them from saying bad things about you.

28 Patricia Kayden  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:54:24pm

re: #1 erik_t

Who is hurt if Republicans double down? Not me. I would love for Democrats to keep the White House for years to come.

And I don't understand how General Petraus' resignation connects to some bizarre Benghazi conspiracy.

Republicans are strange.

29 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:55:32pm

Factoid: Now that Eric Shinseki is more than seven years retired from the military he's eligible to serve as Secretary of Defense. If Obama really wanted to fuck with the Republicans he'd then rehire Petraeus to replace him as Sec. of Veteran's Affairs, a less informationally sensitive position.

30 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:55:40pm

So Iran shoots at a drone and then Petraeus resigns. I question the timing.

31 funky chicken  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:56:34pm

Here's Mrs. Petraeus, working hard for servicemembers and their families. The RWNJ need to respect her privacy. But it's much more exciting for them to scream about their pathetic conspiracy theories.

[Link: www.zimbio.com...]

32 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:56:39pm

Petraeus fired to protect the secrets of Benghazi?!

It's a conspiracy!!!

33 Ian G.  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:57:29pm

re: #30 Mich-again

So Iran shoots at a drone and then Petraeus resigns. I question the timing.

The Lakers fired Mike Brown and Petraeus resigns. I question the timing.
It snows 4 inches in New York on 11/7 and Petraeus resigns. I question the timing.
The Dow Jones sinks 300 points and Petraeus resigns. I question the timing.


This is fun!

34 Jolo5309  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:59:00pm

I wear pants and Petraeus resigns.

35 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 1:59:27pm

So Marky Mark Wahlberg gets cast in Transformers 4 and then Petraeus resigns. I question the timing.

36 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:00:43pm

The toilet gets clogged, General Petraeus resigns, I question the timing.

37 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:02:40pm

re: #19 erik_t

I DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT THIS MEANS

Other "lefties" (which Petraeus isn't anyway) that had affairs want to give him a medal for also having an affair, or some stupid shit like that. Just a childish schoolyard style taunt that means nothing considering how well known it is that Republicans can't keep it in their pants either.

38 wrenchwench  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:03:20pm

And my tea has gone cold.

I question the timing.

39 wrenchwench  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:04:17pm
40 Lidane  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:04:37pm

re: #6 Bulworth

This seems like a good direction for the RWNJ base to take. /

This is excellent news for John McCain Mitt Romney!

These dipshits can't even go three days without devolving right back into the idiocy and fail that cost them the election. They are going to go through the next four years without learning a goddamn thing, then they're going to wonder why their influence as a national party keeps shrinking.

41 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:05:26pm

A hurricane hits New York, Petraeus resigns, I question the timing.

42 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:05:59pm

re: #39 wrenchwench

Image: votepinata.jpg

So true. They go out of their way to alienate Latinos and then they wonder why they won't vote for them. Not very smart are they?

43 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:06:24pm

Khloe Kardashian and Lamar Odom are breaking up and Petraeus admits to having an affair. I question the timing.

44 celticdragon  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:07:38pm

re: #18 Charles Johnson

Watch for the Petraeus conspiracy theory to be featured on Fox News very soon. It probably already is. I can't watch.

[Embedded content]

This bullshit has permanently entered the wingnut mythology. We will be hearing iterations of it from the faithful 25 years from now.

Unfortunately, I also think the teabaggers will dump Boehner and get Cantor to okay articles of impeachment based on ...something...from Libya. They are absolutely certain of...well, I still don't know just what the fuck they are alleging...but they are really, really sure about it.

45 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:08:23pm

re: #42 HappyWarrior

So true. They go out of their way to alienate Latinos and then they wonder why they won't vote for them. Not very smart are they?

Yeah, why get your panties in a bunch just because Romney wants you to self-deport? Didn't they get the memo? He doesn't actually mean anything he says..

46 Jolo5309  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:08:44pm

re: #43 Mich-again

Khloe Kardashian and Lamar Odom are breaking up and Petraeus admits to having an affair. I question the timing.

Are you saying Khloe was having an affair with Petraeus?

47 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:09:16pm

re: #46 Jolo5309

Are you saying Khloe was having an affair with Petraeus?

No not at all. I just question the timing..

48 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:09:23pm

re: #45 Mich-again

Yeah, why get your panties in a bunch just because Romney wants you to self-deport? Didn't they get the memo? He doesn't actually mean anything he says..

And Kris Kobach? Mitt Romney barely knows him? What's that he hired him as his immigration adviser? Oh that doesn't mean a damn thing. I mean look we have Marco Rubio!

49 erik_t  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:09:34pm

re: #46 Jolo5309

Are you saying Khloe was having an affair with Petraeus?

It would be irresponsible not to speculate.

50 celticdragon  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:09:53pm

If the GOP is going to question statistics, why not go all the way?

Correlation does not imply causation!

51 wrenchwench  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:10:14pm

re: #42 HappyWarrior

So true. They go out of their way to alienate Latinos and then they wonder why they won't vote for them. Not very smart are they?

Not smart at all. First they assume Latino values are in line with Republican values, then they think they have a strong bond that won't be broken by all their anti immigrant spewing.

But....Marco Rubio!

52 Lidane  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:11:12pm

Mike Brown gets fired as the coach for the Lakers then goes to Chik-Fil-A as Petraeus resigns.

I question the timing.

53 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:11:28pm

You know what the most disappointing thing about this eleciton was? The exit polling on young whites age 18 to 29. The President lost them 44 to 51.

That's fucked up. I thought younger people in general, even white ones, had gotten past this shit. An erroneous opinion formed from living on the West coast it seems.

54 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:12:10pm

re: #50 celticdragon

If the GOP is going to question statistics, why not go all the way?

Correlation does not imply causation!

I can tell you one thing... I will never support a candidate that supports convergent cross mapping.

55 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:13:15pm

re: #51 wrenchwench

Not smart at all. First they assume Latino values are in line with Republican values, then they think they have a strong bond that won't be broken by all their anti immigrant spewing.

I read a Foreign Affairs magazine article about the Latino vote. There's a quote by Reagan, "Latinos are Republicans but they just don't know it yet." Reagan was mistaken. It's one thing to emphasize individualism, it's another thing to thing to deride working together. And of course having Mr. Self-Deport as a nominee too. And seeing Obama actually won the Cuban American population in Florida, I think the hyperbolic crap about Obama being a tyrant really pissed a lot of people off.

56 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:14:11pm

re: #53 goddamnedfrank

You know what the most disappointing thing about this eleciton was? The exit polling on young whites age 18 to 29. The President lost them 44 to 51.

That's fucked up. I thought younger people in general, even white ones, had gotten past this shit. An erroneous opinion formed from living on the West coast it seems.

I was disappointed with that too since that's my demographic.

57 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:14:15pm

I can't stay, but I wanted to post quickly to express my disappointment with Director Petraeus. He seemed an excellent human being and a high moral example, and now we find out he is an adulterer. I am saddened and disappointed to hear this news, and I hope his repentance for his act of dishonesty is sincere. I still thank him for his service to the United States, though.

BBL

58 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:14:58pm

I made Ma Po tofu for an early dinner. Gen. Petraeus resigned. I question the timing.

Also, I should set out extra napkins.

59 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:16:11pm

re: #57 Dark_Falcon

I can't stay, but I wanted to post quickly to express my disappointment with Director Petraeus. He seemed an excellent human being and a high moral example, and now we find out he is an adulterer. I am saddened and disappointed to hear this news, and I hope his repentance for his act of dishonesty is sincere. I still thank him for his service to the United States, though.

BBL

It's not our mistakes but how we learn from them that we show our character.

60 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:16:22pm

re: #53 goddamnedfrank

You know what the most disappointing thing about this eleciton was? The exit polling on young whites age 18 to 29. The President lost them 44 to 51.

That's fucked up. I thought younger people in general, even white ones, had gotten past this shit. An erroneous opinion formed from living on the West coast it seems.

A lot of them grew up very isolated. It's easy to forget how much of this country is dominantly white, and how often we have effective segregation.

61 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:17:35pm

I still remember being one of only two white guys in my Civics class to favor Gore over Bush in 8th grade though.

62 wrenchwench  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:17:51pm

re: #53 goddamnedfrank

You know what the most disappointing thing about this eleciton was? The exit polling on young whites age 18 to 29. The President lost them 44 to 51.

That's fucked up. I thought younger people in general, even white ones, had gotten past this shit. An erroneous opinion formed from living on the West coast it seems.

Many are reachable. Many have been reached first by their ignorant parents, pastors, and peers.

63 kirkspencer  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:18:46pm

Petraeus resigns. George Bush files to run for election. I question the timing.

(G P Bush, Jeb's son. Running for something in Texas, office not yet known.)

64 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:19:42pm

re: #63 kirkspencer

Petraeus resigns. George Bush files to run for election. I question the timing.

(G P Bush, Jeb's son. Running for something in Texas, office not yet known.)

I'm not surprised. He's put his name a lot in the news lately. I can't see either Jenna or Barbara (George W's daughters) running for anything. They seem like nice girls especially Jenna. From what I know about G.P Bush, he's pretty standard fare conservative but obviously having an immigrant mother, he's in line with the rest of the Bushes on things like immigration.

65 Lidane  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:20:39pm
66 Origuy  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:20:54pm

I wanted to tweet @rupertmurdoch and tell him to bug Petraeus' phone and find out what was going on.

67 freetoken  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:21:17pm

re: #66 Origuy

do it!

68 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:21:19pm

re: #51 wrenchwench

Not smart at all. First they assume Latino values are in line with Republican values, then they think they have a strong bond that won't be broken by all their anti immigrant spewing.

Ann Coulter And Sean Hannity Jump On The Latino Moocher Train

AND ANOTHER THING ABOUT THE ELECTION! (This will be your life for the next few days, get used to it.) Here are Ann Coulter and Sean Hannity, giving us THEIR opinions about why the GOP got their ass handed to them on Tuesday, and you will never guess what they have to say. Or maybe you will, because SHOCKER, this is all the fault of the Latinos who want handouts. (Yes, THOSE Latinos, the same ones that the GOP is frantically trying to reach by parading Marco Rubio around.) Also, the fact that Obama is an incumbent president? THAT’s what made it difficult to pry him out of the White House. Romney was a “strong candidate,” but not quite strong enough to unseat an incumbent, because that NEVER happens. (Except to Jimmy Carter and GHW Bush, but never mind that.) See, the country is changing, says Hannity. And it’s changing into a group of people attracted to the “allure of ‘free.’”

Republicans: helping you understand how to fix the character flaw that only they perceive, and that everything you care about is stupid.

69 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:21:46pm

Meanwhile, in NJ...

Christie congratulated Obama by phone on election night victory

He only emailed Romney condolences. I think Christie is about to jump to Independent. It is completely viable to run as such in the Northeast.

70 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:22:28pm

I have kind of a history with infidelity. My marriage broke up because my ex wife was unfaithful, and my first step dad cheated on and left my mom. I really don't like it when people lie to their spouses about what they're up to, and I'm acutely aware of how shitty it feels to be on the receiving end and to see someone you love feel broken and unattractive in the aftermath.

That said what Petraeus did only matters to me in as much as he held a position of extreme responsibility and discretion, and exposing himself to easy blackmail demonstrated a lack of judgement that's kind of hard to just dismiss or ignore. The specifics aren't anybody else's business.

71 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:23:05pm

re: #69 ProGunLiberal

Meanwhile, in NJ...

Christie congratulated Obama by phone on election night victory

He only emailed Romney condolences. I think Christie is about to jump to Independent. It is completely viable to run as such in the Northeast.

Nah, he's distancing himself from Romney. Obama won his state by a big margin and he's up for reelection literally next year. He is positioning himself though as defacto head of the reality based wing of his party though.

72 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:23:49pm

Also in New Jersey, a man without power got innovative with his Prius.

During blackout, man uses Toyota Prius to light house

Amid continued power outages in parts of the Northeast, many residents found temporary refuge from cold and dark homes inside their cars. For one New Jersey man, he used the power from his hybrid car to light up his entire house.

Bob Sakala of Paramus says he bought his Toyota Prius Hybrid in June to save gas. In the week since the storm, he powered his home -- including lights, laptops and a television -- on three quarters of a tank of gas. Sakala says he first read about the Prius' use as a power source years ago on the internet.

I will buy myself a Hybrid eventually.

73 kirkspencer  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:24:20pm

re: #53 goddamnedfrank

You know what the most disappointing thing about this eleciton was? The exit polling on young whites age 18 to 29. The President lost them 44 to 51.

That's fucked up. I thought younger people in general, even white ones, had gotten past this shit. An erroneous opinion formed from living on the West coast it seems.

I really find this interesting. In 2008 this group broke in exactly the opposite way. For that matter the youngest part of that group broke for Kerry.

This is, bluntly, weird and I think it's going to be worthwhile for people to figure out why.

74 Eventual Carrion  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:24:37pm

re: #37 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Other "lefties" (which Petraeus isn't anyway) that had affairs want to give him a medal for also having an affair, or some stupid shit like that. Just a childish schoolyard style taunt that means nothing considering how well known Republicans are for being unable to keep it in their pants.

Or their diapers.

75 freetoken  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:24:40pm

re: #68 The Ghost of a Flea

Oh, the racist right hate machine is hardly backing down. Last night I linked the latest Buchanan piece at Townhall, and as expected the commenters jumped right on the blatant BROWN PEOPLE!! complaint of Buchanan's Is the GOP Headed for the Boneyard?

76 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:25:24pm

re: #71 HappyWarrior

I'm not so sure. Doing this will alienate the majority of the party. Only a minority of Republicans are reality based now. He can pull a Bloomberg, or an Angus King.

77 Lidane  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:25:51pm

re: #68 The Ghost of a Flea

Ann Coulter And Sean Hannity Jump On The Latino Moocher Train

Republicans: helping you understand how to fix the character flaw that only they perceive, and that everything you care about is stupid.

Dear RWNJs--

Please continue to call Latinos moochers, illegals, and idiots that only want handouts from the government. Also, keep going full steam ahead with "self-deportation", playing Feliz Navidad as a way to "reach out" to us on your talk radio shows, and pass more laws that target brown people who don't speak English.

You know, because it all worked so well in getting Mitt Romney elected.

Morons.

No love,
Me

78 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:25:52pm

re: #74 Eventual Carrion

Or their diapers.

Or their bathroom stall.

79 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:26:02pm

re: #73 kirkspencer

I really find this interesting. In 2008 this group broke in exactly the opposite way. For that matter the youngest part of that group broke for Kerry.

This is, bluntly, weird and I think it's going to be worthwhile for people to figure out why.

Here's the thing about the human brain. It doesn't finish developing until around age 27 or so.

80 freetoken  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:26:47pm

With all this GOP complaining about being suppressed by minorities the following ought to sober you up:

Supreme Court Appears Ready to Nuke the Voting Rights Act

81 Charles Johnson  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:28:48pm

Just checking something.

82 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:29:06pm

re: #76 ProGunLiberal

I'm not so sure. Doing this will alienate the majority of the party. Only a minority of Republicans are reality based now. He can pull a Bloomberg, or an Angus King.

I don't know. I just know that Obama won his state by a bigger margin than last time and he knows he's going to need people who voted for Obama to vote for him in his re-election for governor. He's also probably banking on-wrongly I'd agree- that Obama hatred won't dominate the party's primary electorate in 2016. I guarantee you that Christie in his re-election ads is going to try to sell himself as bipartisan by showing photos of him and POTUS working together. He has to win the re-election before he can run for the nomination if you ask me. This is kind of like George Allen in 2006. If Allen had beat Webb, he would have easily ran for president in 2008 and probably been the GOP frontrunner but because he came off as a partisan hack and bigot, his aspirations were ruined.

83 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:30:14pm

re: #76 ProGunLiberal

I'm not so sure. Doing this will alienate the majority of the party. Only a minority of Republicans are reality based now. He can pull a Bloomberg, or an Angus King.

It won't get him elected President as an Independent though, where are the state organizations going to come from? You can't run a national campaign with only an office in New jersey. There is no viable way to make an Independent run at the White House, you need a party organization.

84 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:30:27pm

re: #81 Charles Johnson

Just checking something.

Stop that! Do I have to come down there?

85 RadicalModerate  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:30:34pm

re: #71 HappyWarrior

Nah, he's distancing himself from Romney. Obama won his state by a big margin and he's up for reelection literally next year. He is positioning himself though as defacto head of the reality based wing of his party though.

I think it depends on what direction the Republican Party takes post-election, with the first indication coming with how they deal with the upcoming "fiscal cliff". If they stay as hardline and unwilling to budge at all on compromise (which early indications show that very well may be happening), and coupled with the night-and-day difference on how he was treated in the run-up to, as well as the aftermath of last weeks' superstorm - ie Romney/Republicans thinking of him only as a campaign tool, while Obama/Democrats working their asses off to get help to his constituents - I can most definitely see him becoming an Independent governor.

86 Dr Lizardo  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:30:51pm

Wow. I just ran Laura Ingraham's tweet through my Google Translator (Wingnut to English) and got the most fascinating result:

(Wingnut) COINCIDENCE?! Petraeus is set to testify NEXT week at a closed door session on Capitol Hill abt Benghazi. Did BHO push him out? This stinks!

(English) HERPYDERPY?! Petraeus derp derp derp derp DERP derp derp derp derp derp derp derp Capitol Hill derp Benghazi. Derp BHO derp derp derp? Derpy derp!

87 efuseakay  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:31:11pm

Please. Teabaggers... double... triple... no... QUADRUPLE down on your nonsense and keep convincing yourselves you just weren't "conservative enough". The country will thank you every two years.

88 BongCrodny  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:31:23pm

re: #53 goddamnedfrank

You know what the most disappointing thing about this eleciton was? The exit polling on young whites age 18 to 29. The President lost them 44 to 51.

That's fucked up. I thought younger people in general, even white ones, had gotten past this shit. An erroneous opinion formed from living on the West coast it seems.

According to an NBC news story, Obama only won 36% of the white male vote. He also won 68% of the single women vote.

It's not younger whites in general who haven't gotten past it; it's likely younger white males.

89 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:32:13pm

re: #80 freetoken

With all this GOP complaining about being suppressed by minorities the following ought to sober you up:

Supreme Court Appears Ready to Nuke the Voting Rights Act

A strange choice of legacy for Roberts.

90 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:32:19pm

re: #85 RadicalModerate

I think it depends on what direction the Republican Party takes post-election, with the first indication coming with how they deal with the upcoming "fiscal cliff". If they stay as hardline and unwilling to budge at all on compromise (which early indications show that very well may be happening), and coupled with the night-and-day difference on how he was treated in the run-up to, as well as the aftermath of last weeks' superstorm - ie Romney/Republicans thinking of him only as a campaign tool, while Obama/Democrats working their asses off to get help to his constituents - I can most definitely see him becoming an Independent governor.

I'd agree with that. I just don't see him going Independent. To me Charlie Crist in Florida was a rare case. And I see PLL brought up Angus King, Angus King was always an independent and has been supporting Democratic presidential candidates since 2004.

91 bratwurst  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:32:24pm

What happened in Benghazi in unquestionably a tragedy, and it is certainly well worth reviewing the timeline to try to prevent attacks like this in the future.

Having said that, I cannot recall ever hearing Laura Ingraham, Hannity, Beck, Rush or anyone of their ilk express a single moment of outrage over the many, many thousands of lost military and civilian lives in Iraq due to non-existant weapons of mass destruction.

92 Lidane  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:32:33pm

re: #86 Dr Lizardo

Speaking of derp and fail:

We're in for a loooong four years, kids. The nutters aren't going to learn a goddamn thing from their loss.

93 Lidane  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:33:05pm

re: #89 Obdicut

A strange choice of legacy for Roberts.

He has to do something prove his GOP cred after voting to uphold Obamacare.

94 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:33:14pm

re: #88 BongGhazi

According to an NBC news story, Obama only won 36% of the white male vote. He also won 68% of the single women vote.

It's not younger whites in general who haven't gotten past it; it's likely younger white males.

I'm glad that me, my dad, uncles, and my cousins are a minority within our demo group.

95 kirkspencer  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:33:49pm

re: #85 RadicalModerate

I think it depends on what direction the Republican Party takes post-election, with the first indication coming with how they deal with the upcoming "fiscal cliff". If they stay as hardline and unwilling to budge at all on compromise (which early indications show that very well may be happening), and coupled with the night-and-day difference on how he was treated in the run-up to, as well as the aftermath of last weeks' superstorm - ie Romney/Republicans thinking of him only as a campaign tool, while Obama/Democrats working their asses off to get help to his constituents - I can most definitely see him becoming an Independent governor.

Actually, first indication to me is schizophrenia. A fair amount of leadership is saying Republicans have to address immigration, along the lines of "make the borders harder to cross but make the people already living here citizens." The rank and file has risen up about this, to the point of already saying any such attempt will result in tea primary revolts.

The sad thing is that if the leadership would stick to their guns - pull a hard-core Buckley - they'd win. They'd lose a seat or two tactically, but strategically they'd pull a lot of people back.

96 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:35:23pm

re: #89 Obdicut

If they do that, it will cause national convulsions. But Roberts and ilk look like they want to deny minorities their right to vote.

97 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:35:50pm

re: #80 freetoken

With all this GOP complaining about being suppressed by minorities the following ought to sober you up:

Supreme Court Appears Ready to Nuke the Voting Rights Act

Actually, thinking about it, this is horrendously bad timing for the GOP. Right after an election that was defined by minorities voting patterns there's going to be this big court case argued about racism and voter suppression. If the court does strike down the voting rights act, I think it will electrify the minority vote even more. I think this might simply even more rapidly entrench the GOP as the Souther, Country, and Western party, unable to actually contend on the national scale.

98 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:36:57pm

re: #80 freetoken

With all this GOP complaining about being suppressed by minorities the following ought to sober you up:

Supreme Court Appears Ready to Nuke the Voting Rights Act

Ahem...

"Is it your position that today Southerners are more likely to discriminate than Northerners?" Chief Justice John Roberts demanded of the attorney defending the Voting Rights Act at the time.

To which I would have replied "Absolutely your honor, I was born and raised in the South, but I have also lived in the North. There is one heck of a world of difference especially in rural areas."

99 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:37:46pm

I guess we'll see what happens. I'll have a good indication state wide here in Virginia where the GOP is going both politically and rhetorically by seeing who they nominate for governor to replace McDonnell who has to sit down due to our silly term limit rule. It was going to be Bolling without a doubt but Cuccinelli threw a wretch in those plans. Also gonna be interested to see who the Dems nominate here. While I appreciate that Terry McAuliffe has used the past three-four years since his first run for elected office here to better to get to know our state, I am still not a fan of his and I am not sure he would make a good governor. Would I rather have him than Bolling or especially Cooch, hell yeah, but I don't see him being cut from the good governance model that Warner and later Kaine were. But then again I thought Creigh Deeds would be an excellent candidate for governor.

100 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:37:58pm

Slate is saying Gen Petraeus was having an affair with his biographer.

The woman with whom Gen. David Petraeus was having an affair is Paula Broadwell, the author of a recent hagiographic book about him, All In: The Education of General David Petraeus.

However, the source is anonymous.

101 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:39:05pm

re: #97 Obdicut

I hesitate to say "West" Arizona will likely flip, and, given proper effort, I think we could flip the Dakotas and Montana.

What will remain Republican is the Mormon Triangle.

102 Kragar  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:39:45pm

Once again, how exactly does Petraeus stepping down prevent him from testifying before Congress?

Fucking wingnuts.

103 Lidane  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:40:04pm

re: #97 Obdicut

Actually, thinking about it, this is horrendously bad timing for the GOP. Right after an election that was defined by minorities voting patterns there's going to be this big court case argued about racism and voter suppression. If the court does strike down the voting rights act, I think it will electrify the minority vote even more. I think this might simply even more rapidly entrench the GOP as the Souther, Country, and Western party, unable to actually contend on the national scale.

Honestly? That would be the best thing for the GOP, because it would force them to finally kick the bigots, the religious fanatics, and the raving lunatics to the damn curb and try to get back to some semblance of sanity.

As it stands now, the Republican party is in dire need of an enema. Their self-imposed media bubble and alternate reality just got shown for the fraud that it is, and they took a demographic beating at the polls. They even lost the Cuban vote in FL, which hasn't happened in half a century.

If it takes them nuking the VRA and firmly marginalizing themselves as the party of angry white guys for the GOP to finally revert to some form of sanity or to split, then so be it.

104 RadicalModerate  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:40:32pm

re: #80 freetoken

With all this GOP complaining about being suppressed by minorities the following ought to sober you up:

Supreme Court Appears Ready to Nuke the Voting Rights Act

Given the number of those states who were found THIS YEAR to be in direct violation of the Voting Rights Act in their redrawing of districts strictly along racial lines (not to mention one of the worst offenders - Texas, in its Republican Platform - openly advocating its repeal), I really can't see any way that the Supreme Court could overturn this with a clear conscience.

[Link: www.star-telegram.com...]

105 Bulworth  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:40:37pm

re: #102 Kragar

Once again, how exactly does Petraeus stepping down prevent him from testifying before Congress?

Fucking wingnuts.

Because shut up that's why. /

106 Lidane  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:40:47pm

re: #102 Kragar

Once again, how exactly does Petraeus stepping down prevent him from testifying before Congress?

Fucking wingnuts.

Benghazi! Benghazi! Benghazi!

107 efuseakay  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:41:23pm

re: #81 Charles Johnson

Just checking something.

Do these jeans make me look fat? :)

108 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:41:56pm

re: #98 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Ahem...

To which I would have replied "Absolutely your honor, I was born and raised in the South, but I have also lived in the North. There is one heck of a world of difference especially in rural areas."

I would ask him "By 'Southerners' in that question, judge, you're implying white southerners, aren't you? And there we see part of the problem. White is the default state. When you talk about a "southerner" or a "northerner" the image in your head is a white man. Systematic racism exists and wherever it exists, be it in the South against blacks or in California against Hmong or wherever, it is unAmerican and the federal government should act to protect the rights of its citizens to vote."

But I'm some kinda crazy liberal.

109 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:42:29pm

re: #100 The Ghost of a Flea

Slate is saying Gen Petraeus was having an affair with his biographer.

However, the source is anonymous.

Well, she was paid to buff up his persona.

110 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:42:38pm

re: #90 HappyWarrior

I'd agree with that. I just don't see him going Independent. To me Charlie Crist in Florida was a rare case. And I see PLL brought up Angus King, Angus King was always an independent and has been supporting Democratic presidential candidates since 2004.

Charlie Christ was a Republican Governor, he ran for Senate as an Independent because Rubio with teabagger support pushed him out of the republican primary. It was a last second Hail Mary to win the senate seat, not a planned strategy.

111 thatthatisis  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:42:51pm

Hi, everyone. Eight days without power - whew. Glad that's over.

Current news re: General Petraeus is that he had to admit to the affair, because it's the subject of an FBI investigation. Apparently there is a possibility that the person he had the affair with obtained access to his private email, which gave her access to classified information. If true, it would be very poor judgment on his part. No wonder he had to resign.

But of course, I'm sure it was really all to keep him from testifying about Benghazi. After all, his testimoney might hurt Obama's election chanc.......oh, wait.

112 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:42:58pm

Think Obama is going to get at least other USSC appointment and maybe even two. He'll end up I think appointing the most people to the court since Nixon so even though this will remain the Roberts court, it will be a very Obama influenced court. That alone was for me a good reason to vote for Obama. With Romney having Robert Bork advising him on judicial issues, I don't want to know who Romney had in mind for vacancies.

113 Kragar  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:43:10pm

re: #108 Obdicut

I would ask him "By 'Southerners' in that question, judge, you're implying white southerners, aren't you? And there we see part of the problem. White is the default state. When you talk about a "southerner" or a "northerner" the image in your head is a white man. Systematic racism exists and wherever it exists, be it in the South against blacks or in California against Hmong or wherever, it is unAmerican and the federal government should act to protect the rights of its citizens to vote."

But I'm some kinda crazy liberal.

HOWARD JOHNSON IS RIGHT!

114 Dr Lizardo  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:43:27pm

re: #92 Lidane

Speaking of derp and fail:

[Embedded content]

We're in for a loooong four years, kids. The nutters aren't going to learn a goddamn thing from their loss.

No, they haven't and won't learn a damned thing. They're just going to double-down on the insanity. And when they lose next time (hopefully, in 2014), they'll just double-down again, and keep on doing so until they reach point of complete and utter irrelevancy.

115 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:43:57pm

re: #110 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Charlie Christ was a Republican Governor, he ran for Senate as an Independent because Rubio with teabagger support pushed him out of the republican primary. It was a last second Hail Mary to win the senate seat, not a planned strategy.

Right as I said, it was a rare case. If Crist beats Rubio in that primary, Crist doesn't end up backing Obama.

116 gwangung  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:44:22pm

re: #104 RadicalModerate

Given the number of those states who were found THIS YEAR to be in direct violation of the Voting Rights Act in their redrawing of districts strictly along racial lines (not to mention one of the worst offenders - Texas, in its Republican Platform - openly advocating its repeal), I really can't see any way that the Supreme Court could overturn this with a clear conscience.

[Link: www.star-telegram.com...]

You're only talking about four judges, though.

117 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:44:35pm

re: #113 Kragar

HOWARD JOHNSON IS RIGHT!

I wash born here, an I wash raished here, and dad gum it, I am gonna die here, an no sidewindin' bushwackin', hornswagglin' cracker croaker is gonna rouin me bishen cutter.

118 Kragar  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:45:09pm

Its WND so be forewarned

A Christian response to Obama victory

In the afterglow of Obama’s victory, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Ayatollah Khamenei, Vladimir Putin and Chris Matthews, as well as millions of pot-heads, sodomites, pro-aborts and all common moochers, are sharing a collective thrill.

Lovely.

119 Kragar  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:45:31pm

re: #117 HappyWarrior

I wash born here, an I wash raished here, and dad gum it, I am gonna die here, an no sidewindin' bushwackin', hornswagglin' cracker croaker is gonna rouin me bishen cutter.

RARIN!

120 Bulworth  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:46:12pm

re: #98 watching you tiny alien kittens are

To which I would have replied "Absolutely your honor, I was born and raised in the South, but I have also lived in the North. There is one heck of a world of difference especially in rural areas."

Finally, god-fearing Southerners and Amercian election clerks everywhere, can go back to the days of requiring randomly selected voter applicants to recite their state's constitution word for word, to name with correct spelling every member of that state's house of representatives since 1825, and to properly identify the full cast of Birth Of A Nation.

You know, just as god intended. //

121 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:46:34pm

re: #119 Kragar

RARIN!

122 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:46:58pm

re: #120 Bulworth

If they strike it down, something will happen.

I am just not sure what.

123 erik_t  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:47:02pm

re: #100 The Ghost of a Flea

Slate is saying Gen Petraeus was having an affair with his biographer.

However, the source is anonymous.

"All in"?

Hehehehehehehehehe

124 Bulworth  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:47:04pm

re: #118 Kragar

Its WND so be forewarned

A Christian response to Obama victory


Lovely.

Stay classy, WMD.

125 Gus  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:47:29pm

Yeah. The wingnuts are taking Obama's reelection better than I expected.

//

126 JRCMYP  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:47:48pm

re: #18 Charles Johnson

Watch for the Petraeus conspiracy theory to be featured on Fox News very soon. It probably already is. I can't watch.

[Embedded content]

And if there isn't "more to this story" I'm sure they will make something up.

127 Bulworth  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:48:13pm
In the afterglow of Obama’s victory, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Ayatollah Khamenei, Vladimir Putin and Chris Matthews, as well as millions of pot-heads, sodomites, pro-aborts and all common moochers, are sharing a collective thrill.

There's a name missing here. It's on the tip of my tongue....

128 RadicalModerate  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:48:39pm

re: #118 Kragar

Its WND so be forewarned

A Christian response to Obama victory

Lovely.

These people are putting down their copies of "Atlas Shrugged" and starting to pick up their copies of "The Turner Diaries".

They're damn lunatics.

129 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:49:32pm

Well I don't want to hear them accuse the left of being hateful ever again but I won't hold my fucking breath.

130 Bulworth  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:49:47pm

In the afterglow of Obama’s victory, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Ayatollah Khamenei, Vladimir Putin and Chris Matthews, as well as millions of pot-heads, sodomites, pro-aborts and all common moochers, Americans are sharing a collective thrill.

Fxd

131 Kragar  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:50:18pm

re: #125 Gus

Yeah. The wingnuts are taking Obama's reelection better than I expected.

//

Be of good cheer. If science teaches us anything, it teaches us to accept our failures, as well as our successes, with quiet dignity and grace...

Son of a bitch! Bastard! I'll get you for this! What did you do to me? What did you do to me. I don't want to live. I do not want to live.

132 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:50:30pm

re: #130 Bulworth

In the afterglow of Obama’s victory, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Ayatollah Khamenei, Vladimir Putin and Chris Matthews, as well as millions of pot-heads, sodomites, pro-aborts and all common moochers, Americans are sharing a collective thrill.

Fxd

But they're the only true Americans, how do I know this? They told me so!

133 Gus  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:50:53pm

Mongo need food. BBL

134 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:51:29pm

re: #98 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Ahem...

To which I would have replied "Absolutely your honor, I was born and raised in the South, but I have also lived in the North. There is one heck of a world of difference especially in rural areas."

Come to think of it, a clever attorney this time around should pull out Alabama's voting records from this election and compare them to one of the Northern states. "As you can see your honor..."

135 HappyWarrior  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:52:07pm

It's POTUS toasting Mel Brooks. Watch it. It's a good laugh.
136 BongCrodny  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:55:13pm

re: #109 Decatur Deb

Well, she was paid to buff up his persona.

Is that what you kids are calling it these days?

Just 'cause Satt hasn't been around lately.

137 Mich-again  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:58:25pm
138 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 2:59:48pm

re: #109 Decatur Deb

Well, she was paid to buff up his persona.

*groan*

139 freetoken  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:01:05pm

re: #137 Mich-again

Yes, Politico is pushing the chorus of wingnuts.

The problem now post-election is the drop-off of viewers/readers and if there isn't a new scandal a week then the crowd will go away and watch something more dramatic, like DWTS or something.

140 efuseakay  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:01:16pm

"Just the tip?"

141 Lidane  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:01:36pm

re: #137 Mich-again

We all know the truth -- Petraeus just wants time off to go see the new James Bond film.

142 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:02:54pm

re: #114 Dr Lizardo

No, they haven't and won't learn a damned thing. They're just going to double-down on the insanity. And when they lose next time (hopefully, in 2014), they'll just double-down again, and keep on doing so until they reach point of complete and utter irrelevancy.

What disturbs me is the possibility that the talk about "saving" this country from people who don't vote right--or are "stealing" elections from true conservatives--is a narrative that justifies more fraud.

All the crap in recent years--True the Vote, multiple states wanting drop the VRA, sending out misleading voter information, voter caging efforts--make me feel like the above claim is not just alarmism.

As I've said before; nothing's going to change in the GOP worldview while they hold onto a basic contempt and illegitimation of people that vote against them. Things can only get worse.

143 wrenchwench  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:03:29pm

re: #111 thatthatisis

Hi, everyone. Eight days without power - whew. Glad that's over.

Oh, my. {{thatthatisis}}

Spell check wanted to change your nic to 'catharsis'.

144 Lidane  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:08:22pm
145 Lidane  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:09:08pm
146 freetoken  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:09:12pm

David Koch Is the Worst Tipper at 740 Park and More from Alex Gibney on His Latest Documentary, Park Avenue

Monday night, Academy Award–winning documentary director Alex Gibney will premiere his latest project, Park Avenue: Money, Power & the American Dream, a film about the disparity of wealth in America. In particular, Gibney highlights the differences between the historically extravagant apartments of 740 Park—a building that has housed everyone from a young Jackie Onassis to John D. Rockefeller Jr.—and impoverished residents in the South Bronx. VF Daily caught up with the Taxi to the Dark Side director about the psychology behind wealthy lobbyists, the building’s most delusional residents, and David Koch’s parsimonious tipping habits. Highlights from our chat:

VF Daily:Your project is inspired by Michael Gross’s book 740 Park. Had you read it before making this film?

Alex Gibney: I mentioned this project to Jane Mayer at The New Yorker, and she said, “You might want to take a look at that book.” I did and I loved it. The focus for me was the residents of the building now, notably David Koch, Stephen Schwarzman and John Thain. They seem emblematic of this rising disparity between rich and poor in America.

[...]

Question: Is the new TV not-quite-a-hit series 666 Park Avenue based on this same book "740 Park"?

And if so, is that TV series lead character, the building owner, modeled on certain residents of the real "740 Park"?

147 Kragar  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:10:35pm

re: #144 Lidane

[Embedded content]

"Every one keep track of your punch cards!"

148 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:11:04pm

re: #147 Kragar

"Every one keep track of your punch cards!"

Punch cards? What are those?

//

149 Lidane  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:12:07pm
150 dragonath  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:13:27pm

re: #73 kirkspencer

I really find this interesting. In 2008 this group broke in exactly the opposite way. For that matter the youngest part of that group broke for Kerry.

This is, bluntly, weird and I think it's going to be worthwhile for people to figure out why.

I'm guessing the current cohort didn't have the College Republicans telling them how great the Iraqi invasion was.

Remember when it comes to the "white" vote, the numbers are almost shockingly biased rightwards because of the Southern (read: evangelical) vote.

151 Joanne  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:14:06pm

re: #66 Origuy

I wanted to tweet @rupertmurdoch and tell him to bug Petraeus' phone and find out what was going on.

152 Lidane  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:16:59pm

Heh:

153 Dr Lizardo  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:18:23pm

re: #142 The Questionable Timing of a Flea

And that's the core problem of the GOP. They treat any and all who disagree with them with the most breathtaking contempt. They feel they are somehow entitled to be the majority governing party in perpetuity.

It's quite ironic; while the GOP and Tea Partiers in particular complain vociferously about "a sense of entitlement" supposedly held by the less fortunate, they themselves have the biggest sense of entitlement of all: the right to rule over us forever, like some feudal aristocracy. They are little more than would-be petty tyrants, and until they drop this grotesque attitude, I suspect their share of the electorate will fade over time.

154 jaunte  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:18:38pm

re: #30 Mich-again

So Iran shoots at a drone

This is worse than Pearl Harbor!1!

155 Lidane  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:22:58pm

re: #153 Dr Lizardo

It's quite ironic; while the GOP and Tea Partiers in particular complain vociferously about "a sense of entitlement" supposedly held by the less fortunate, they themselves have the biggest sense of entitlement of all: the right to rule over us forever, like some feudal aristocracy.

Well, duh. They're the white establishment. Don't you know that they're supposed to be the majority and in control of everything forever and ever and ever? The President lives in the White House, for chrissakes. Clearly, this is a sign.

Brown and black people? Pfft. They should be happy just being allowed to live in this country.

///

156 Lidane  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:24:53pm

Memo to wingnuts:

Image: calmdown.jpg

That is all.

157 DisturbedEma  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:25:22pm

re: #156 Lidane

Amen

158 freetoken  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:27:22pm

Now, the important news of the day:

George Lucas and Kathleen Kennedy Talk Star Wars: Episode VII in a New Video

[...]

It was revealed yesterday that Michael Arndt, the screenwriter responsible for Little Miss Sunshine and Toy Story 3, had turned in a lengthy treatment for the next adventure and rumors persist that Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford are being courted to return to the roles of Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia and Han Solo.

[...]

I'm telling you - GRANDCHILDREN!! The new generation of Jedi.

159 freetoken  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:29:43pm

J:TNG Jedi, The Next Generation

ducks and runs...

160 Kragar  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:31:07pm

re: #159 freetoken

J:TNG Jedi, The Next Generation

ducks and runs...

So Luke and Leia went over to the Dark Side?

161 dragonath  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:33:13pm

re: #80 freetoken

With all this GOP complaining about being suppressed by minorities the following ought to sober you up:

Supreme Court Appears Ready to Nuke the Voting Rights Act

Florida.

162 DisturbedEma  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:33:28pm

re: #158 freetoken

I've got a bad feeling about this. . .

163 freetoken  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:34:51pm

re: #160 Kragar

So Luke and Leia went over to the Dark Side?

My scenario: Han an Leia are married, have children, and their first daughter now has a daughter herself. Long estranged brother/uncle Luke, who has spent the last 30 years in seclusion, foresees this new baby to be the start of a new generation of Jedi, but some evil force comes and kidnaps the baby, thus forcing Luke out of seclusion to lead a band of young heroes (assisted by Han) to find the child. That's the first movie.

Thus a new group of characters and actors are introduced for movies VIII through XII .

164 wrenchwench  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:35:47pm
165 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:35:55pm

re: #53 goddamnedfrank

You must have missed that Ole Miss riot after he won. And that whitepeoplemourningmitt tumblr.

166 Kragar  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:37:45pm

re: #163 freetoken

My scenario: Han an Leia are married, have children, and their first daughter now has a daughter herself. Long estranged brother/uncle Luke, who has spent the last 30 years in seclusion, foresees this new baby to be the start of a new generation of Jedi, but some evil force comes and kidnaps the baby, thus forcing Luke out of seclusion to lead a band of young heroes (assisted by Han) to find the child. That's the first movie.

Thus a new group of characters and actors are introduced for movies VIII through XII .

But episodes 1-3 taught us Jedi who love = dark side.

167 Dr Lizardo  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:37:58pm

re: #155 Lidane

168 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:37:59pm

re: #158 freetoken

Now, the important news of the day:

George Lucas and Kathleen Kennedy Talk Star Wars: Episode VII in a New Video

I'm telling you - GRANDCHILDREN!! The new generation of Jedi.

For the love of all that is beer, somebody lock Lucas up before this. Please.

169 dragonath  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:38:04pm

re: #164 wrenchwench

Peggy Noonan is on her reading list.

That's always a bad sign.

170 Lidane  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:38:05pm

re: #158 freetoken

Now, the important news of the day:

George Lucas and Kathleen Kennedy Talk Star Wars: Episode VII in a New Video

I'm telling you - GRANDCHILDREN!! The new generation of Jedi.

There's an entire Expanded Universe to play with, including the children and grandchildren of Han & Leia and Luke & Mara. It would make sense.

171 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:38:35pm

Interesting...
Petraeus' biographer Paula Broadwell under FBI investigation over access to his email, law enforcement officials say

The biographer for resigning CIA Director David Petraeus is under FBI investigation for improperly trying to access his email and possibly gaining access to classified information, law enforcement officials told NBC News on Friday.
...
The law enforcement officials said they do not believe the FBI investigation will result in any criminal charges. They also stressed that Petraeus is not under investigation.

The CIA declined all comment on the case. Broadwell could not be reached for comment.

172 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:39:17pm

Paula Broadwell under FBI investigation for improperly attempting to access Director Petraeus' email...

Wha?

173 wrenchwench  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:39:45pm

re: #169 dragonath

Peggy Noonan is on her reading list.

That's always a bad sign.

I can't get in her site because my Flash is broken. But I think the tweets there tell me enough.

174 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:40:04pm

re: #165 Ghost of Tom Joad

You must have missed that Ole Miss riot after he won. And that whitepeoplemourningmitt tumblr.

No, I just didn't think it indicative of young white people in general.

Still don't actually. A lot of them were brainwashed this time around and that's fucked up. However I don't think most of them voted out of pure racial animus like their parents and grandparents.

175 Dr Lizardo  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:40:12pm
176 freetoken  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:41:05pm

re: #166 Kragar

But episodes 1-3 taught us Jedi who love = dark side.

Which is why Luke has remained single and in seclusion. It's Han's and Leia's granddaughter who could be the foundation of an entire next 6 films.

177 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:41:18pm

Well now we have a pretty good idea how the affair got found out and why he had to resign...

178 Barflytom  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:41:29pm

re: #150 dragonath

I'm guessing the current cohort didn't have the College Republicans telling them how great the Iraqi invasion was.

Remember when it comes to the "white" vote, the numbers are almost shockingly biased rightwards because of the Southern (read: evangelical) vote.

Re: how 18-29 yr old whites voted, does it ever occur to you that the prospect of inheriting a country which is 20+ trillion in debt might be an issue ?

I don't see any prospect of meaningful reductions in spending. Congress is unlikely to accept higher taxes, and even if they did, the average level of federal govt tax receipts has stayed in a narrow range below 20% of GDP for about the last 60 years, regardless of tax rates.

You're stuck now with a structural deficit of a trillion plus every year, and about 2/3rds of that is now funded by the Federal Reserve basically printing money, rather than by investors actually buying new debt.

A lot of younger people now realise they're screwed.

179 Lidane  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:41:48pm

re: #171 Killgore Trout

Interesting...
Petraeus' biographer Paula Broadwell under FBI investigation over access to his email, law enforcement officials say

Hence the reason for his affair with her leading to his resignation.

180 Kragar  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:42:01pm

re: #176 freetoken

Which is why Luke has remained single and in seclusion. It's Han's and Leia's granddaughter who could be the foundation of an entire next 6 films.

Or even better, BOUNTY HUNTERS!

181 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:42:11pm

re: #175 Dr Lizardo

Shit. That's serious.

I don't know if it's serious or not but maybe there was some funny business going on. Maybe the biographer found out about the affair by snooping in his emails or something.

182 Kragar  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:43:21pm

Star Wars episode VII: The return of HK-47

183 Lidane  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:43:24pm

re: #180 Kragar

Or even better, BOUNTY HUNTERS!

184 gwangung  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:43:33pm

re: #178 Barflytom

Re: how 18-29 yr old whites voted, does it ever occur to you that the prospect of inheriting a country which is 20+ trillion in debt might be an issue ?

That's an argument against Republicans, you know.

185 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:43:36pm

re: #18 Charles Johnson

Watch for the Petraeus conspiracy theory to be featured on Fox News very soon. It probably already is. I can't watch.

[Embedded content]

If I was a conspiracy-type person and had to take a guess, I'd say that this was something that happened a little while ago, and Petraeus waited until post-election to break the news so it wouldn't look bad. That would be my best guess if there was something fishy here. But, as usual, it's probably not.

186 Joanne  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:44:01pm

re: #109 Decatur Deb

Well, she was paid to buff up his persona.

And wound up polishing his knob.

187 freetoken  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:44:07pm

re: #184 gwangung

That's an argument against Republicans, you know.

He knows, he just won't admit it.

188 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:44:22pm

re: #182 Kragar

Star Wars episode VII: The return of HK-47

Hear that Meatbag? I'll be back!

189 DisturbedEma  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:44:46pm

re: #186 Joanne

Funny how that happens. . .right John Edwards??

190 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:45:29pm

re: #178 Barflytom

A lot of younger people now realise they're screwed.

If that were true the voting pattern would transcend race. Young people also realize that current Defense spending and low tax rates for the ultra rich aren't sustainable.

191 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:46:19pm

re: #178 Barflytom

Oh please, like people in that age range have a single solitary clue about debt and the country's finances outside of the bullshit they're force-fed by the media and the austerity humpers.

192 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:46:30pm

re: #176 freetoken

Which is why Luke has remained single and in seclusion. It's Han's and Leia's granddaughter who could be the foundation of an entire next 16 films, 12 made for TV specials, TV series, Jar-Jar Binks childrens educational programing, and entire new line of merchandising.

FTFY

193 DisturbedEma  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:46:47pm

re: #190 goddamnedfrank

College kids are getting sticker shock from their loan realities as well. . .

194 DisturbedEma  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:47:18pm

re: #191 Ghost of Tom Joad

they do if they're in college. . .my son does

195 freetoken  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:49:02pm

The American Prospect hits the deer-in-the-lights-eyed GOP:


Marco Rubio's Clueless Boosters

[...]

But the conservatives who are promoting Rubio as their magic ticket for wooing Latinos are only demonstrating that they still haven’t got a clue about what it actually takes. As Ta-Nehisi Coates points out, “Diversity isn't simply giving Mia Love a plum speaking spot. It is finding a Mia Love who represents the interests, and will advocate for policies, of other Mia Loves.” Same goes for Rubio: Even his own ethnic group in his own state, Cuban-Americans in Florida, are tilting Democratic in spite of his supposedly magnetic appeal.

[...]

The Republicans’ idea of diversifying has always been, quite literally, skin-deep. In the 1980s and '90s, when they decided it would be smart to woo more than the handful of inexplicable African Americans who supported the party, they recruited candidates in the J.C. Watts mold—Reaganites who were wholehearted supporters of the white man’s agenda. The farcical parade of what George H.W. Bush might have called “brown ones” at the GOP National Convention this summer showed that the party's approach to winning Latinos is exactly the same: Out were trotted down-the-line conservatives like New Mexico Governor Susana Martinez, Texas Senator-elect Ted Cruz, and Rubio himself. (Only Nevada Governor Brian Sandoval somewhat breaks the ideological mold.) Other notable Republicans of color—the list is brief—like Love (who lost on Tuesday) and Nikki Haley and Bobby Jindal are, like Rubio, Tea Partiers.

[...]

On that last part, Haley, Jindal, are more accurately described as fundamentalist Christians. The GOP embraces “brown ones” if they tow the theocratic line.

196 freetoken  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:50:25pm

re: #192 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Which is why Luke has remained single and in seclusion. It's Han's and Leia's granddaughter who could be the foundation of an entire next 16 films, 12 made for TV specials, TV series, Jar-Jar Binks childrens educational programing, and entire new line of merchandising.

And since it is now owned by Disney, ABC can have a special season of DWTS composed entirely of Star Wars actors and characters!!

197 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:51:02pm

re: #178 Barflytom

Yes, yes, America is doomed, we might as well just go ahead and use our nukes on ourselves and get it over with blah, blah, blah...

Quite an echo in here the last few days, I keep reading the same things over and over, how strange.

/

198 DisturbedEma  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:51:39pm

re: #196 freetoken

Don't forget the ears. . .:)

199 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:53:09pm

And then we have LLH's contention in the last thread that Asians only voted for Obama 3 to 1 because they're chickenshit, too afraid of being lynched by inner city liberals.

200 Lidane  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:53:24pm

Haha:

201 Joanne  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:53:32pm

re: #189 DisturbedEma

Funny how that happens. . .right John Edwards??

Indeed. Note to spouses...YOU hire the biographers. :-D

202 Lidane  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:54:34pm
203 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:54:43pm

re: #194 DisturbedEma

they do if they're in college. . .my son does

I'm not trying to make them out as morons or something, but he's inferring that they're voting a certain way because they believe in the debt hysteria being over-hyped by the media and Repubs in Congress.

Don't see it.

204 Kragar  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:55:03pm

re: #178 Barflytom

It must be great living in a completely fact free zone

[Link: economistsview.typepad.com...]

205 dragonath  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:55:05pm

re: #178 Barflytom

You must be one of those people who would have liked to see the banks fail and the auto companies wither on the vine. Why, it wouldn't have cost the taxpayer a cent to watch the America's business infrastructure collapse!*

*technically true

206 DisturbedEma  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:55:49pm

re: #199 goddamnedfrank

saw that. . .

207 Barflytom  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:56:22pm

re: #187 freetoken

He knows, he just won't admit it.

I'm not absolving republicans from blame - they didn't tackle entitlements when they had the chance years ago. Doesn't change the fact that spending not revenue is now the issue. Obama wants a bigger government - there's no way you can dispute that. The point is it won't get paid for - there's a ceiling at about 20% of GDP as far as revenue goes. You can "tax the rich" or whatever as much as you want, but you're just not going to get more money out of the economy than that.

Plus, when Obamacare comes into full effect, it will have a serious effect on employment. I think it's a safe bet there will be a lot of companies with 49 employees who just won't hire any more people. We're probably looking at a stagnant economy - at best - significant inflation, and quite likely a serious fiscal crisis.

208 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:56:23pm

re: #182 Kragar

Star Wars episode VII: The return of HK-47

Interjection: Silence, meatbag.

209 erik_t  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:56:52pm

re: #178 Barflytom

Re: how 18-29 yr old whites voted, does it ever occur to you that the prospect of inheriting a country which is 20+ trillion in debt might be an issue ?

As an 18-29 year old white male, I don't give a tenth of a crap about the deficit compared to how much I care about my friends and family having good jobs, health care, and good public education for our little ones.

The deficit can go fuck a bike tire.

210 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:57:14pm

re: #178 Barflytom

Please don't feed the troll. Thank you.

211 DisturbedEma  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:58:06pm

re: #203 Ghost of Tom Joad

I think for my son, it's a sense of the idea of "too much" debt, as in the US has too much, but he voted Obama because of a lot of other reasons. . .

212 erik_t  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:58:42pm

re: #207 Barflytom

The point is it won't get paid for - there's a ceiling at about 20% of GDP as far as revenue goes. You can "tax the rich" or whatever as much as you want, but you're just not going to get more money out of the economy than that.

Have you informed the rest of the civilized world of your stunning insight?

213 recusancy  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 3:58:46pm

re: #207 Barflytom

Dick Morris? Is that you?

214 dragonath  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:00:15pm

re: #207 Barflytom

I'm not absolving republicans from blame - they didn't tackle entitlements when they had the chance years ago. Doesn't change the fact that spending not revenue is now the issue. Obama wants a bigger government - there's no way you can dispute that.

Hello unfunded Medicare Part D.

215 DisturbedEma  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:01:02pm

re: #209 erik_t

As the mother of 4 18-29 year olds, I agree that while the idea of debt is seen as "looming" they are too busy making day to day life work out for them, and paying their own bills. . .

216 freetoken  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:01:10pm

re: #207 Barflytom

I'm not absolving republicans from blame - they didn't tackle entitlements when they had the chance years ago.

You're stuck on one note.

GWB led us into war into two nations without raising money to do so, wars that have cost (depending upon accounting ideas) between 1 and 2 trillion dollars. And not only did the Republicans not try to raise money via "War Bonds" or any alternative, they simultaneously cut taxes.

Taxes on the highest income earners and the wealthy are now at the lowest in very many decades. Why not return the tax rates to where they were under JFK?

217 freetoken  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:01:26pm

re: #214 dragonath

Hello unfunded Medicare Part D.

Yeah, that too.

218 wrenchwench  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:03:19pm

re: #178 Barflytom

You're stuck now with a structural deficit of a trillion plus every year, and about 2/3rds of that is now funded by the Federal Reserve basically printing money, rather than by investors actually buying new debt.

And that's why we're not Spain.

219 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:05:14pm

Shit, if the deficit and debt is such a serious problem, then why all the talk about "grandfathering" when it comes to entitlement "reform"?

220 Joanne  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:05:30pm

re: #207 Barflytom

No. You absolutely cannot say that. There are less federal employees now than under Bush, Clinton, even Reagan.

You're lying. Plain and simple.

20% of GDP. Seriously, you're too stupid to waste effort on.

You're persona non grata to me. Buh bye, dumbass.

221 Barflytom  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:05:42pm

re: #212 erik_t

Have you informed the rest of the civilized world of your stunning insight?

Look up Federal govt revenues, not total.
You might have noticed the gap of 12% between total revenue and total spending in that piece as well.

Good luck to you - you'll be paying for that one way or another for the rest of your life. And by the way, if you have any personal debt, the bike tire thing probably won't get it repaid.

222 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:06:33pm

Spending and revenue are both the issue. Our defense spending is ridiculous and our upper income tax rates and loopholes are bleeding us dry. There's also no point in subsidizing non-renewable energy sources that are causing nothing but long term environmental damage.

223 freetoken  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:06:36pm

Is there anything wrong with a society spending a significant share of its productivity ("GDP") on ensuring people are healthy and live a long life?

If you had to chose which ought to be the (not exclusive) priority of your society, would it be:

(A) providing healthcare to all the people so they are healthy and live long and productive lives;

(B) developing a war machine equal to the sum of the rest of the planet's, and going around killing people at your discretion?

224 funky chicken  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:06:59pm

re: #172 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Paula Broadwell under FBI investigation for improperly attempting to access Director Petraeus' email...

Wha?

crazy. hey Dave, hope the sex was good. doubt it was worth nuking your career and hurting your faithful wife and kids though.

and she tried to hack the director of the CIA's email? crazy.

225 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:08:15pm

re: #223 freetoken

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.

-- Eisenhower.

226 jaunte  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:09:05pm

re: #223 freetoken

Choices, choices...

227 erik_t  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:09:09pm

Enough troll-feeding for one day.

228 dragonath  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:10:36pm

re: #221 Barflytom

Good luck to you - you'll be paying for that one way or another for the rest of your life. And by the way, if you have any personal debt, the bike tire thing probably won't get it repaid.

Ah, ad hominems from the antediluvian year of 2008, the year conservative thought froze in amber.

229 Gus  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:10:37pm

re: #223 freetoken

Is there anything wrong with a society spending a significant share of its productivity ("GDP") on ensuring people are healthy and live a long life?

If you had to chose which ought to be the (not exclusive) priority of your society, would it be:

(A) providing healthcare to all the people so they are healthy and live long and productive lives;

(B) developing a war machine equal to the sum of the rest of the planet's, and going around killing people at your discretion?

Silence! We need more battleships, biplanes and dirigibles!

230 freetoken  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:10:52pm

re: #226 jaunte

Choices, choices...

Well, I left off the last one:

(3) producing and consuming Star Wars sequels VII through MMMXXV with accompanying merchandise.

.... because I didn't want to overwhelm us with choices.

231 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:11:32pm

Seriously, nothing amuses me as much as hearing self-righteous boomers and their yuppie offspring now whining about however the generations who come after will handle the deficits and debt they left behind, while still demanding that they get the benefit of programs they wish to "reform." War after war, decades of tax cuts and tax credits, building every white elephant and subsidizing truly noxious shit, and yet folks of my generation and later are gonna have to shoulder the cost of "grandfathered" boomers for decades to come?

No, fuck that. If we're all going to feel the pinch, I'm not first in line.

232 Four More Beers  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:11:46pm

re: #225 Obdicut

-- Eisenhower.

Eisenhower, what a dove he was.
///

233 erik_t  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:11:54pm

re: #229 Gus

Silence! We need more battleships, biplanes and dirigibles!

However these must be produced at factories with on-site power generation, because lol fuck if we'll engage in any spending on infrastructure.

234 ramex  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:12:07pm

re: #118 Kragar

Its WND so be forewarned

A Christian response to Obama victory

Lovely.

That reads like a suicide pact.

235 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:12:16pm

re: #225 Obdicut

-- Eisenhower.

But, but, but, Communism! Russia! Cuba! Korea! Vietnam! Iran! Iraq! Central America! (I know, my timeline is fucked up.) Iraq again! Monsters under the bed! Afghanistan! Iran! Syria! Jonas Brothers!

In 10 years, I'm sure we'll need to fight against South America or some shit.///

236 Gus  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:12:16pm

Energy subsidies. Farm subsidies.

237 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:12:17pm

One thing I harp on a lot is the mortgage interest deduction for second homes. That does nothing but fuel market endangering speculation and cause housing prices to outstrip inflation and increases in income. Totally fucked, if you're at the point in your life where you can afford to buy a second home then you've made it, the last thing society needs is for the government to subsidize its purchase.

238 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:12:29pm

re: #229 Gus

Silence! We need more battleships, biplanes and dirigibles!

Bayonets and horses! Still my favorite poutrage so far. How dare Obama de-emphasize the role of the noble horse in the modern army!

239 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:12:45pm

re: #229 Gus

Silence! We need more battleships, biplanes and dirigibles!

Horses and Bayonets!

240 Gus  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:13:48pm

re: #238 Obdicut

Bayonets and horses! Still my favorite poutrage so far. How dare Obama de-emphasize the role of the noble horse in the modern army!

China will soon have a nuclear armed sub! We're doomed unless we build 1,000,000 more aircraft carriers and submarines to counter that threat!!

241 Four More Beers  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:14:32pm
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.

My god, if a Republican said something as logical as this today he would be called a far-left radical. Just remember, these wise words came from a former four-star general that led a war. Good lord, how I wish Ike were alive to see how his party went astray. He would not believe it.

242 Gus  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:14:49pm
243 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:15:19pm

re: #239 Ghost of Tom Joad

Horses and Bayonets!

It really sums up a certain set of the intellectually bankrupt 'right-wing', the ultra-hawks. They're supposedly pro-military and so should be, y'now, conversant on military issues, and yet we suddenly find them arguing in favor of horses and bayonets (and battleships) in 2012. It's their self-selected subject and they don't know jack shit about it.

244 freetoken  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:16:05pm

More chewing on this idea of the GOP and demography:

Moyers guest: ‘We should just let the Bush tax cuts expire’

[...]

Former New York Times columnist and senior fellow at think tank Demos, Bob Herbert, said that more than anything, “I’ll remember is the way people turned out to vote in this election in the face of tremendous voter suppression efforts.”

Blogger for the National Review Online and Reuters columnist Reihan Salam said that this election would be a wake up call for Republicans. “I think that for a lot of conservatives and a lot of Republicans this was a very disappointing election that opened a lot of folks’ eyes to some of the deeper changes that have happened in the country, much more so in some respects than the 2008 election which I think a lot of folks wrote off as a one off, as a fluke, something that reflected very unique historical circumstances.”

Herbert bluntly stated his view of the relationship between the Republican party and minorities. “We need to be clear that this is a party that has been hostile to the interests of African Americans and hostile to the interests of Latinos in this country and hostile to the interests of working people in this country,” he said.

[...]

Salam is one of those so-called "thinking conservatives", but he has yet to open up to the idea that he works for institutionally racist private clubs.

Here's the show:

245 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:16:10pm

What we really need is Voltron. Nobody'd fuck with us then.

246 Barflytom  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:16:33pm

re: #222 goddamnedfrank

Spending and revenue are both the issue. Our defense spending is ridiculous and our upper income tax rates and loopholes are bleeding us dry. There's also no point in subsidizing non-renewable energy sources that are causing nothing but long term environmental damage.

Federal revenue as a percentage of GDP peaked at about 24% of GDP in 1945. For most of the period since then it's stayed between 15 and 20% of GDP, even though upper income tax rates have varied widely in that period. That's just a fact. If I'm wrong, please show me the figures.

You also have different circumstances now than you did in the fifties or sixties for instance. There are a lot more places for rich people to go now.
It's no good saying that's "wrong" somehow, it's just reality.

247 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:17:55pm

re: #242 Gus

Oh look! Damn, the counter is still ticking!

Shit, we're still paying off debt incurred from running up the national credit card out-building the Soviet Union, for fuck's sake.

248 Gus  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:17:58pm

So is it true that Romney never paid any income tax for 10 years?

Oh right. Then you have the religious exemptions.

249 blueraven  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:18:11pm

re: #181 Killgore Trout

I don't know if it's serious or not but maybe there was some funny business going on. Maybe the biographer found out about the affair by snooping in his emails or something.

Huh? She (the biographer) was the one he was having the affair with.

250 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:18:36pm

re: #240 Gus

China will soon have a nuclear armed sub! We're doomed unless we build 1,000,000 more aircraft carriers and submarines to counter that threat!!

But what about the nukes they and Russia already have? And the Russian boomers? And Chinese satellites? How ever will we counter them unless we spend twice* as much on the military as what the Generals ask for?

(*But none of that can be spent to replace our own aging satellites, those are infrastructure, not weapons!)

251 jaunte  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:20:03pm

Rich people might want to go to New Zealand until they find out you pay by the bit there for your internet service.

252 Targetpractice  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:20:06pm

re: #246 Barflytom

Federal revenue as a percentage of GDP peaked at about 24% of GDP in 1945. For most of the period since then it's stayed between 15 and 20% of GDP, even though upper income tax rates have varied widely in that period. That's just a fact. If I'm wrong, please show me the figures.

You also have different circumstances now than you did in the fifties or sixties for instance. There are a lot more places for rich people to go now.
It's no good saying that's "wrong" somehow, it's just reality.

If they wish to leave, let them do so. But they pay one final tax on the way out the door and they surrender their passport with the understanding that they will not be allowed back within the boundaries of the United States or its territories unless they sign paperwork admitting they left the US for the purpose of avoiding taxes.

253 Gus  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:20:27pm

re: #250 watching you tiny alien kittens are

But what about the nukes they and Russia already have? And the Russian boomers? And Chinese satellites? How ever will we counter them unless we spend twice* as much on the military as what the Generals ask for?

(*But none of that can be spent to replace our own aging satellites, those are infrastructure, not weapons!)

Oh. News like this always make the armchair generals and admirals overreact. They get one sub loaded with nukes and suddenly we're doomed unless we counter that threat a bazillion times over. There's another thing we can work on. Worldwide nuclear disarmament.

254 Dr Lizardo  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:20:41pm

re: #241 Four More Beers

My god, if a Republican said something as logical as this today he would be called a far-left radical. Just remember, these wise words came from a former four-star general that led a war. Good lord, how I wish Ike were alive to see how his party went astray. He would not believe it.

Why does General Eisenhower hate America?! /s

255 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:21:17pm

re: #243 Obdicut

They're apparently experts on many subjects they know jack-shit about. Obama's comment about horses and bayonets was a perfect microcosm of their thinking not on just military issues, but others as well. It shows they don't understand the world as it changes, which is even more apparent now that they lost the election, and how they lost it.

256 Gus  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:21:24pm

Legalize marijuana nationwide. For recreational use and medical use. Imagine the cost savings to law enforcement and judiciary on local, state, and federal levels.

257 jaunte  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:21:49pm

re: #256 Gus

Think of the poor prison industrialists!

258 Gus  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:22:24pm

Make gay marriage a federal (Const) right. Imagine the cost savings to the judiciary with no more lawsuits and court hearings being brought forth by archaic right-wingers.

259 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:22:52pm

Obama'd be all like, "Hey bitches, you want some Voltron?!" And everyone would just shit themselves, because FIVE ROBOT LIONS!

I should be Sec Def.

260 Gus  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:24:43pm

re: #256 Gus

Legalize marijuana nationwide. For recreational use and medical use. Imagine the cost savings to law enforcement and judiciary on local, state, and federal levels.

This also creates tax revenue.

261 wrenchwench  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:25:20pm
262 dragonath  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:26:58pm

re: #261 wrenchwench

So, if Arizona doesn't get all the ballots counted in time, they revert to a territory?

263 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:27:27pm

re: #241 Four More Beers

My god, if a Republican said something as logical as this today he would be called a far-left radical. Just remember, these wise words came from a former four-star general that led a war. Good lord, how I wish Ike were alive to see how his party went astray. He would not believe it.

The "anti-war" thing is another one of those topics that I don't think either side is properly addressing. It's one of those topics where I think we're all missing the point. The anti-war left is just as screwed by the Dems as the anti-abortion right is screwed by the Republicans. I agree that it would be great if we could give up our defense spending but that's not going to happen no matter which side is in power. There's a reason for that although I don't know what the reason is. I know it's not the desired narrative around here but I don't think war with Iran is any more or less likely no matter who won the election.

264 freetoken  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:27:59pm

Though Moyer's shows at times can be sort of boring, this one seems to try and reach some consensus of ideas between Herbert and Salam, and covers topics that were all too briefly touched on in the "debates".

265 Barflytom  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:28:54pm

re: #252 Targetpractice

If they wish to leave, let them do so. But they pay one final tax on the way out the door and they surrender their passport with the understanding that they will not be allowed back within the boundaries of the United States or its territories unless they sign paperwork admitting they left the US for the purpose of avoiding taxes.

Yeah, that'll bring investors flocking to this country.
Look at the history of foreign exchange controls, for example, and see how that usually worked out.

266 Gus  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:29:06pm

There's 1000s of things we can do. The idea that the only answer is just tax cuts for the rich is absurd. We've had freaking tax cuts for the rich since 2006. Those were supposed to create jobs in the millions. We barely got a drop and instead an increase in debt. So that's it? The GOP answer to everything is just "oog, moog" tax cuts for the rich?

267 Gus  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:29:30pm

re: #265 Barflytom

Yeah, that'll bring investors flocking to this country.
Look at the history of foreign exchange controls, for example, and see how that usually worked out.

Sounds like a form of extortion.

268 wrenchwench  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:29:44pm

Good stuff at the link.

269 Dr Lizardo  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:30:46pm

re: #262 dragonath

So, if Arizona doesn't get all the ballots counted in time, they revert to a territory?

Yes. Under President Obama's direct authority.

He'll appoint Bill Clinton as Governor-General.

270 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:31:20pm

re: #263 Killgore Trout

The anti-war left is just as screwed by the Dems as the anti-abortion right is screwed by the Republicans.

Except in as much as the Democrats actually got us out of Iraq while the Republicans opposed it, Romney calling that Obama's "signature failure." Also negotiating a withdrawal date for Afghanistan, ending the use of torture, and pushing back against Netanyahu's drive to bomb Iran.

271 freetoken  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:31:45pm

It's nauseating to see Salam defend that Heritage video declaring war on "libruls" which was released the day after the election.

272 wrenchwench  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:34:24pm

re: #263 Killgore Trout

I agree that it would be great if we could give up our defense spending but that's not going to happen no matter which side is in power. There's a reason for that although I don't know what the reason is.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

273 Gus  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:35:26pm

re: #263 Killgore Trout

The "anti-war" thing is another one of those topics that I don't think either side is properly addressing. It's one of those topics where I think we're all missing the point. The anti-war left is just as screwed by the Dems as the anti-abortion right is screwed by the Republicans. I agree that it would be great if we could give up our defense spending but that's not going to happen no matter which side is in power. There's a reason for that although I don't know what the reason is. I know it's not the desired narrative around here but I don't think war with Iran is any more or less likely no matter who won the election.

Right. Defense cuts means "giving up on defense spending."

274 Barflytom  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:35:30pm

re: #267 Gus

Sounds like a form of extortion.

That's exactly what it is if the government won't let people take their own money wherever they want.
The fact that a lot of dems are fine with the idea of just confiscating money from people they envy isn't a very comforting thought.

275 dragonath  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:35:34pm

Defending the expatriation of assets is like revolutionaries confessing their love for an exiled king. It's an amazingly weird position to take.

276 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:36:15pm

re: #272 wrenchwench

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

And insecurity. Also a lot of us are raised on the joys of blowing shit up, I know I was.

277 Kragar  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:37:23pm

Confiscating money? Oh boy, conversation over.

278 JamesWI  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:38:41pm

DERP

279 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:38:53pm

re: #263 Killgore Trout

The "anti-war" thing is another one of those topics that I don't think either side is properly addressing. It's one of those topics where I think we're all missing the point. The anti-war left is just as screwed by the Dems as the anti-abortion right is screwed by the Republicans. I agree that it would be great if we could give up our defense spending but that's not going to happen no matter which side is in power. There's a reason for that although I don't know what the reason is. I know it's not the desired narrative around here but I don't think war with Iran is any more or less likely no matter who won the election.

It is simple, if Iran wants a nuke badly enough it will get one, there really isn't anything else we can do besides the sanctions. We are not going into Iran with large scale ground forces and that is what we would have to do to actually stop them.

Do you remember what happened when North Korea got the bomb...thats right nothing happened. Except for Bush quietly taking their name off of his "countries that support terror" list that is. North Korea became another face at the table where the mutually assured destruction game is played and life went on.

When Iran gets the bomb the same thing will happen for the same reasons, our treaties with South Korea assure the North of our retaliation against an attack on the South. Life goes on. Iran will be assured of our retaliation against any attack on Israel because of our support treaties and again life will go on.

280 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:39:14pm

re: #263 Killgore Trout

The "anti-war" thing is another one of those topics that I don't think either side is properly addressing. It's one of those topics where I think we're all missing the point. The anti-war left is just as screwed by the Dems as the anti-abortion right is screwed by the Republicans. I agree that it would be great if we could give up our defense spending but that's not going to happen no matter which side is in power. There's a reason for that although I don't know what the reason is. I know it's not the desired narrative around here but I don't think war with Iran is any more or less likely no matter who won the election.

I'm having trouble recalling the Supreme Court cases that make indiscriminate defense spending a Constitutionally protected act.

Other than that...exactly the same.

Except for the semantic gulf between "a budget cut" and "no budget at all."

But other than that, exactly the same.

281 Gus  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:40:49pm

Also. Comparing the abortion stance of Republicans to whatever Democratic Party anti-war coalition that may exist is absurd. The two are incomparable in sheer numbers. With Republicans they are by and large "pro-life." Close to 100 percent. With Democrats you have whom?

282 allegro  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:41:03pm

So I just put Fox on for a few minutes to see what they were saying about the Petraeus thing. Sneaky bastards they are. They had a woman reporter on who has known the General and covered him for about 5 years. She talked about what a straight arrow he was and how he would never lose at anything. Then the interviewer changed the subject to Benghazi. They talked about that for a couple of minutes - no connection whatsoever to Petraeus, his name not even mentioned. Then they went back to Petraeus, no connection at all to Benghazi.

So without even hinting at a suggestion of a relationship of the two events of Benghazi and the resignation of Petreaus, they strangely made a nebulous connection without making any connection at all.

283 Barflytom  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:41:06pm

re: #275 dragonath

Defending the expatriation of assets is like revolutionaries confessing their love for an exiled king. It's an amazingly weird position to take.

In other words, you think the government should have a claim on every dime of wealth in the country, and we should just be grateful for whatever we're allowed to keep for ourselves.

Do you want this to be a free country or not ? That's what it comes down to.

285 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:42:59pm

re: #273 Gus

Right. Defense cuts means "giving up on defense spending."

That's exactly the problem. "Anti-war" has been turned into pacifist, and then what you said above. I'd bet real money most of the people who have been labeled "anti-war" are solely against wars of choice, or intervening in places where we shouldn't be. Hell, many folks probably get called "anti-war" because they were against Iraq, or Korea, or Vietnam.

This country could probably easily "defend" itself and its allies in this day and age for a fraction of what is actually spent. It's pretty much become 'welfare for war' at this point.

286 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:43:15pm

re: #283 Barflytom

In other words, you think the government should have a claim on every dime of wealth in the country, and we should just be grateful for whatever we're allowed to keep for ourselves.

Do you want this to be a free country or not ? That's what it comes down to.

Protect us from the straw man, barfly.

You're our only hope.

287 Digital Display  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:44:32pm

This is a horrible news for 2 families torn apart.
This is good news General.. Obamacare will be paying for your couple therapy sessions. Oh Boy General P. You thought war is hell.

288 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:44:40pm

re: #279 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Exactly. It's nothing but bluster and pants-shitting for no reason whatsoever. Yet all we here about Iran is "they're willing to use it! They're crazy enough to do it!" etc. etc.

289 freetoken  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:45:02pm

re: #283 Barflytom

You continue to deny that you are not alone on this planet, in regards to how you think economics works.

Your very existence depends upon the people around you. Without their well-being, you would shrivel up and die.

And that is what "government", in a democracy like ours, is. That "government" that you despise so much is simply the totality the humanity around you.

When you despise the EPA you despise the effort to keep people from getting poisoning from our industrial wastes. You see governance like the EPA an intrusion into your precious world, while all the EPA in fact is simply results from trying to deal with aftermath of having so many people living in one place and producing so much waste.

290 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:45:46pm

If not Voltron then we at least need some Tachikomas.

I'm just sayin', it would totally fuck with the world's head if we took some robotic animal shit from anime and made it a reality.

291 b_Snark  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:45:53pm

re: #283 Barflytom

In other words, you think the government should have a claim on every dime of wealth in the country, and we should just be grateful for whatever we're allowed to keep for ourselves.

Do you want this to be a free country or not ? That's what it comes down to.

Are you incapable of thinking this through or just not want to?

292 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:46:20pm

re: #283 Barflytom

FREEDUMB!

293 dragonath  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:47:12pm

re: #283 Barflytom

Way to infer something I didn't say. If you love this country so much, why don't you offshore your assets to the Cayman Islands.

294 nines09  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:48:52pm

re: #290 goddamnedfrank

If not Voltron then we at least need some Tachikomas.

I'm just sayin', it would totally fuck with the world's head if we took some robotic animal shit from anime and made it a reality.

Like this?

295 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:49:11pm

re: #293 dragonath

Way to infer something I didn't say. If you love this country so much, why don't you offshore your assets to the Cayman Islands.

Somalia!
Come to think of it, they do have people who think they're entitled to every dime of wealth that comes sailing by, but they're entrepreneurs rather than government.

296 dragonath  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:51:55pm

re: #290 goddamnedfrank

If not Voltron then we at least need some Tachikomas.

I'm just sayin', it would totally fuck with the world's head if we took some robotic animal shit from anime and made it a reality.

Real life is freaky enough

297 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:53:11pm

Here in Lubbock, which went 73% Romney, we are witnessing a most delightful display of wingnut despair and depression, a veritable carnival of wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Y'all should come on down and enjoy the show before they sober up and realize their SUV payments are still due.

298 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:53:20pm

re: #272 wrenchwench

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Probably. If I had to take a guess I'd say that a large part of our domestic economic success depends on the influence that our military buys with maintaining a certain global order abroad. Not just oil but other resources, stabilizing certain regions, insuring access to certain markets etc. If this is correct we're going to have to fix our domestic economic model before there's any hope of significant reductions in military spending. That's probably very doubtful any time soon. For now it's just a pipe dream.

299 erik_t  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:53:51pm

The FBI investigates overseas actions now? Well huh, you learn something new every day.

300 JamesWI  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:53:56pm

HERPY DERP!

Is "If you adopt amnesty, the Tea Party will secede!!!!" one of those promises like "If you nominate Mitt Romney, I'll never vote for him?"

301 b_Snark  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:54:13pm

re: #289 freetoken

You continue to deny that you are not alone on this planet, in regards to how you think economics works.

Your very existence depends upon the people around you. Without their well-being, you would shrivel up and die.

And that is what "government", in a democracy like ours, is. That "government" that you despise so much is simply the totality the humanity around you.

When you despise the EPA you despise the effort to keep people from getting poisoning from our industrial wastes. You see governance like the EPA an intrusion into your precious world, while all the EPA in fact is simply results from trying to deal with aftermath of having so many people living in one place and producing so much waste.

Just looking at infrastructure like sewer, water and electrical, the average homeowner could not pay for the small chunk just in front of her/his property without government subsidization. No way farmers or other rural citizens could pay for installing those same utilities, the roads and the bureaucracy necessary to track land use and sales without government support.

Even survivalists who live in isolated compounds relied on government financed roads, utilities, surveyors and land ownership enforcement. Barfly hasn't thought beyond his own selfish envy and fear.

302 erik_t  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:55:13pm

re: #301 b_snark

Barfly hasn't thought

Edited for succinctness.

303 Ghost of Tom Joad  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:55:46pm

re: #300 JamesWI

HERPY DERP!

[Embedded content]

Is "If you adopt amnesty, the Tea Party will secede!!!!" one of those promises like "If you nominate Mitt Romney, I'll never vote for him?"

Hey Tea Party?

304 b_Snark  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:57:13pm

re: #302 erik_t

Edited for succinctness.

Thanks. I do tend to ramble on.

305 Big Joe Ghazi  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:57:58pm

re: #300 JamesWI

HERPY DERP!

[Embedded content]

Is "If you adopt amnesty, the Tea Party will secede!!!!" one of those promises like "If you nominate Mitt Romney, I'll never vote for him?"

Please, proceed.

306 erik_t  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:58:15pm

re: #304 b_snark

Thanks. I do tend to ramble.

Not as much as Mr. Barfly.

307 allegro  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:59:23pm

re: #300 JamesWI

NO COMPROMISE! If the #GOP adopts amnesty, the #Teaparty will secede. #tcot #bcot #ccot #nra #ocra #sgp #twisters #breitbart #Israel #tlot

Wow! What an offer! I say we take it, real quick like.

308 Interesting Times  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:59:25pm

Reminder: Barfing tom is a filthy little anti-gay bigot who called gay US soldiers "buggers in battledress". Don't feed this particularly nasty and worthless troll.

309 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:59:30pm

re: #298 Killgore Trout

Probably. If I had to take a guess I'd say that a large part of our domestic economic success depends on the influence that our military buys with maintaining a certain global order abroad. Not just oil but other resources, stabilizing certain regions, insuring access to certain markets etc. If this is correct we're going to have to fix our domestic economic model before there's any hope of significant reductions in military spending. That's probably very doubtful any time soon. For now it's just a pipe dream.

"I guess something, but that makes all talk other than my guess a pipe dream."

310 Gus  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 4:59:55pm

re: #300 JamesWI

HERPY DERP!

[Embedded content]

Is "If you adopt amnesty, the Tea Party will secede!!!!" one of those promises like "If you nominate Mitt Romney, I'll never vote for him?"

There they go again. What the fuck does Israel have to do with amnesty?

311 Gus  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:01:18pm

Immigration amnesty in the United States of Murica will lead to the destruction of Israel!

Derp.

312 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:03:54pm

Immigration amnesty in the United States of Murica will lead to the destruction of Israel!*

*By someone other than Jesus.

313 JamesWI  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:04:50pm

re: #310 Gus

There they go again. What the fuck does Israel have to do with amnesty?

The Freeper twitter guy adds in as many "right-wing" hashtags as he can fit into every tweet. I guess he's just desperate to get people to see his very important messages.

314 Barflytom  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:06:29pm

re: #289 freetoken

If the government confined itself to the few basic functions that obviously have to be done by government at some level, I'd have no complaints.

You're just being naive if you ignore the tendency of agencies to become concerned mostly with perpetuating their own existence and expanding their powers. Then you have the natural tendency of politicians to buy votes with other people's money. The great advantage the USA had is a constitution which was designed primarily to limit the power of government. "Progressives" at one time said quite openly that they regarded the constitution as an obstacle to what they wanted.

315 b_Snark  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:06:49pm

re: #313 JamesWI

The Freeper twitter guy adds in as many "right-wing" hashtags as he can fit into every tweet. I guess he's just desperate to get people to see his very important messages.

Prolly Jimbo Robinson. Inferiority complex.

316 Cap'n Magic  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:07:02pm

re: #86 Dr Lizardo

That translator must be in beta.

317 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:07:41pm

re: #296 dragonath

Real life is freaky enough

[Embedded content]

Fuck yeah. That's what I'm talking about. People, we have a choice, wait forever for Jesus to come back with his sword and a lake of fire or get on board now with an army of prosthetic wielding hungry monkeys.

318 Gus  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:08:20pm

re: #314 Barflytom

If the government confined itself to the few basic functions that obviously have to be done by government at some level, I'd have no complaints.

You're just being naive if you ignore the tendency of agencies to become concerned mostly with perpetuating their own existence and expanding their powers. Then you have the natural tendency of politicians to buy votes with other people's money. The great advantage the USA had is a constitution which was designed primarily to limit the power of government. "Progressives" at one time said quite openly that they regarded the constitution as an obstacle to what they wanted.

Show me where in the Constitution where it says we have to spend billions defending South Korea over a period of 50 years.

319 Digital Display  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:08:32pm

I was thinking the other day what a great influence the Gov't has been in my life. I worked a MINSY for 20 years and was always treated first class even when we closed. It prepared me for a high paying professional career.
I went to school for different quals every month for 20 years. They paid for several years of College. Oh I hated it sometimes..
Hoopster: You're going to learn how to weld next week..
I don't weld! This is Bullshit..
You'll be welding when you get back..
They really helped us during the last few years of base closure. Access to all the Gov job listings, training and support. First class.
And another thing I learned from day one. Gov't employees are just Americans like you and I. Not this big evil empire the right tries to cast it as.

320 b_Snark  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:09:38pm

For some reason, it smells like bullshit goalposts being rolled back.

321 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:10:08pm

re: #64 HappyWarrior

I'm not surprised. He's put his name a lot in the news lately. I can't see either Jenna or Barbara (George W's daughters) running for anything. They seem like nice girls especially Jenna. From what I know about G.P Bush, he's pretty standard fare conservative but obviously having an immigrant mother, he's in line with the rest of the Bushes on things like immigration.

Yes, but the men of the Bush family who have held office have all proved to be both decent and sane. George P. Bush might be a unifying force within the GOP, or at least may prove able to reach out more than most others.

322 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:10:34pm

re: #301 b_snark

Just looking at infrastructure like sewer, water and electrical, the average homeowner could not pay for the small chunk just in front of her/his property without government subsidization. No way farmers or other rural citizens could pay for installing those same utilities, the roads and the bureaucracy necessary to track land use and sales without government support.

Even survivalists who live in isolated compounds relied on government financed roads, utilities, surveyors and land ownership enforcement. Barfly hasn't thought beyond his own selfish envy and fear.

I've benefited more ways than I can enumerate from government funding. Besides the usual infrastructure, there was the GI Bill and various other federal programs that allowed me to attend a university (Cornell) where the tuition was more than my impoverished family made in a year. I also got an SBA loan to start my business. All this I suppose makes me a taker rather than a maker and a producer, motivated by sloth and envy of my betters.
Btw, wingnuts, here's my Obama-car. What was that about envy?

323 Interesting Times  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:11:35pm

re: #308 Interesting Times

Some examples of the people barfing-bigot-tom calls "buggers in battledress":

Tell: An Intimate History of Gay Men in the Military

When Alva signed up, before "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," he had to lie on his paperwork. "I knew I was lying," he says. "But I loved what I did, I loved my job, and I didn't want to tell anyone. I said, 'It's going to be my secret.' I knew I was not going to be happy in a way, but I knew this was what I wanted." In 2003 he was deployed to the Middle East, and on March 21 he crossed the border from Kuwait. His unit was part of a huge convoy that stopped outside Basra. Alva got out of his Humvee and went to fetch something from the back of the vehicle. "That's when I triggered the IED. I was awake, my hearing was sort of gone. My hand was covered in blood and part of my index finger was gone. The chaplain was holding my head and I was telling him I didn't want to die. I was taken off a helicopter in Kuwait—it was estimated that I was only in Iraq about three hours—and carried into surgery. I woke up later and when I looked down I saw that the right side of my sheet was flat. I cried myself asleep, only to wake up hours later and see that it's true: My leg is gone."

As he recuperated, he learned about his inadvertent status. "I don't know who designated me to be the first. I was never given a certificate or anything. One-millionth shopper. Now I have the dubious distinction of being the first American injured when the war started. It didn't make it better or worse. I mean, my life was changed forever. I was angry that my leg was gone. Even when I was still in the hospital, hours would go by so slow, and I actually said to myself: 'Who is going to love me now?' I'd never really experienced dating anyone. 'Who is going to love me now? I'm missing a leg.' "

324 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:12:59pm

re: #321 Dark_Falcon

Yes, but the men of the Bush family who have held office have all proved to be both decent and sane.

They've all been bigots.

325 lostlakehiker  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:17:25pm

re: #298 Killgore Trout

Probably. If I had to take a guess I'd say that a large part of our domestic economic success depends on the influence that our military buys with maintaining a certain global order abroad. Not just oil but other resources, stabilizing certain regions, insuring access to certain markets etc. If this is correct we're going to have to fix our domestic economic model before there's any hope of significant reductions in military spending. That's probably very doubtful any time soon. For now it's just a pipe dream.

A large part of every nation's current prosperity rests on this Pax Americana. If we didn't do it, China's navy would patrol the seas and put down piracy. Because somebody's got to. China's armed forces would intervene in wars over resource-grabbing such as Iraq's short-lived conquest of Kuwait.

We need to fix our domestic economic model because access to resources needs more than just open sea lanes and a degree of order in the producing country. It needs a dollar that has some credibility, and it needs an economy that can produce real things of value with which to outbid others for the resources.

As the rest of the world catches up, and as we run these large deficits, both these "needs" become tough to meet. Other nations are going to buy up more, leaving less for us. So we'll have to make do with less. Less oil, less of various rare earth elements, less cocoa and tea and coffee.

The rare earths shortage will be really painful unless we can open some mines of our own. Since these are needed for producing the magnets used in wind turbines, they could become a bottleneck to green energy and energy independence.

We need to fix other parts of our domestic economic model. While we can produce more and more with fewer and fewer workers, and while this solves the production problem, it doesn't solve the distribution problem. I don't see that anybody has a good answer just yet.

326 Iwouldprefernotto  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:19:29pm

re: #246 Barflytom

Federal revenue as a percentage of GDP peaked at about 24% of GDP in 1945. For most of the period since then it's stayed between 15 and 20% of GDP, even though upper income tax rates have varied widely in that period. That's just a fact. If I'm wrong, please show me the figures.

You also have different circumstances now than you did in the fifties or sixties for instance. There are a lot more places for rich people to go now.
It's no good saying that's "wrong" somehow, it's just reality.

Do any of them need a ride to the airport?

Seriously, we "lose" about 1100 citizens a year. We don't need any of them. The US is one of the best places in the world to live adding 3.6% to their tax bill is not going to change that.

327 Cheechako  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:21:51pm

re: #237 goddamnedfrank

One thing I harp on a lot is the mortgage interest deduction for second homes. That does nothing but fuel market endangering speculation and cause housing prices to outstrip inflation and increases in income. Totally fucked, if you're at the point in your life where you can afford to buy a second home then you've made it, the last thing society needs is for the government to subsidize its purchase.

Even the interest on a loan for a recreational vehicle is deductible. Since RV's have kitchens, full baths, and a bedroom they count as a "second home".

328 lostlakehiker  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:21:51pm

re: #322 Shiplord Kirel

I've benefited more ways than I can enumerate from government funding. Besides the usual infrastructure, there was the GI Bill and various other federal programs that allowed me to attend a university (Cornell) where the tuition was more than my impoverished family made in a year. I also got an SBA loan to start my business. All this I suppose makes me a taker rather than a maker and a producer, motivated by sloth and envy of my betters.
Btw, wingnuts, here's my Obama-car. What was that about envy?

GI Bill benefits are part of the employment package for military personnel. Using them doesn't make you a "taker" any more than using your wages to buy a movie ticket or shoes. Those benefits are well and truly earned.

If you've got a business, that makes you a maker yet again. Good job and thanks.

329 Four More Tears  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:22:23pm

It may be that I retired Benghazzy Ben Ross prematurely...

330 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:23:21pm

re: #314 Barflytom

I'm surprised the troll is in during primetime like this. I'll make sure the charcoal is ready in case it has to be clubbed.

331 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:24:13pm

re: #322 Shiplord Kirel

I've benefited more ways than I can enumerate from government funding. Besides the usual infrastructure, there was the GI Bill and various other federal programs that allowed me to attend a university (Cornell) where the tuition was more than my impoverished family made in a year. I also got an SBA loan to start my business. All this I suppose makes me a taker rather than a maker and a producer, motivated by sloth and envy of my betters.
Btw, wingnuts, here's my Obama-car. What was that about envy?

You really own a Rolls-Royce?

332 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:24:51pm

re: #324 goddamnedfrank

They've all been bigots.

Well George P. is half Mexican and apparently has been doing Latino community outreach/building in Texas in preparation for his eventual (now imminent) foray into local politics. So possibly the bigot doesn't apply this time, I don't see Jeb as being much of a bigot either so I doubt the boy was raised that way.

333 Killgore Trout  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:25:24pm

re: #325 lostlakehiker

A large part of every nation's current prosperity rests on this Pax Americana. If we didn't do it, China's navy would patrol the seas and put down piracy. Because somebody's got to. China's armed forces would intervene in wars over resource-grabbing such as Iraq's short-lived conquest of Kuwait.

We need to fix our domestic economic model because access to resources needs more than just open sea lanes and a degree of order in the producing country. It needs a dollar that has some credibility, and it needs an economy that can produce real things of value with which to outbid others for the resources.

As the rest of the world catches up, and as we run these large deficits, both these "needs" become tough to meet. Other nations are going to buy up more, leaving less for us. So we'll have to make do with less. Less oil, less of various rare earth elements, less cocoa and tea and coffee.

The rare earths shortage will be really painful unless we can open some mines of our own. Since these are needed for producing the magnets used in wind turbines, they could become a bottleneck to green energy and energy independence.

We need to fix other parts of our domestic economic model. While we can produce more and more with fewer and fewer workers, and while this solves the production problem, it doesn't solve the distribution problem. I don't see that anybody has a good answer just yet.

Interesting thoughts. I would guess the Germans might be a good model for us to look at for inspiration. Huge economy, decent manufacturing sector, all without the massive global military budget. I don't know how economically viable it is but I have a personal philosophical objection to our obscene consumer culture. Germans and Europeans are slightly better on this front but not by much. I know modern economics depends on rampant consumerism and perpetual growth. Culturally speaking I don't think it's healthy.

334 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:25:32pm

re: #58 The Questionable Timing of a Flea

I made Ma Po tofu for an early dinner. Gen. Petraeus resigned. I question the timing.

Also, I should set out extra napkins.

General Petraeus is coming to your house to eat Ma Po tofu? Wouldn't General Tsao's chicken be more appropriate? Also, do you really want to take sides like that? His wife will be offended.

335 gwangung  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:26:19pm

re: #332 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Well George P. is half Mexican and apparently has been doing Latino community outreach/building in Texas in preparation for his eventual (now imminent) foray into local politics. So possibly the bigot doesn't apply this time, I don't see Jeb as being much of a bigot either so I doubt the boy was raised that way.

I don't see the Bushes as being particularly bigoted or racist; they're more classist, than anything else. They're probably pretty good for most white folks (which makes them a paragon for Republicans).

336 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:27:34pm

re: #334 SanFranciscoZionist

General Petraeus is coming to your house to eat Ma Po tofu? Wouldn't General Tsao's chicken be more appropriate? Also, do you really want to take sides like that? His wife will be offended.

Well, I've known him a lot longer. I think she understands that he needs a few friends around with him right now. Hey, now that he's out of that who CIA bag, he can smoke a jay and play some Xbox360.

337 lostlakehiker  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:27:52pm

re: #266 Gus

There's 1000s of things we can do. The idea that the only answer is just tax cuts for the rich is absurd. We've had freaking tax cuts for the rich since 2006. Those were supposed to create jobs in the millions. We barely got a drop and instead an increase in debt. So that's it? The GOP answer to everything is just "oog, moog" tax cuts for the rich?

Tax increases on the rich won't raise any sum of money that's meaningful in the context of a trillion-plus annual federal deficit. Talk of tax increases on the rich serves only to obscure the scope of the problem. If you levied a 100% tax on everybody making more than a million, and kept everything else the same, and if those high-earners just went along earning like usual and then signed over their entire paycheck to the federal government every year, it wouldn't put much of a dent in that deficit.

Either taxes have to go way up on pretty much everybody, or spending has to go down significantly, or some mix of the two.

338 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:28:14pm

re: #332 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Well George P. is half Mexican and apparently has been doing Latino community outreach/building in Texas in preparation for his eventual (now imminent) foray into local politics. So possibly the bigot doesn't apply this time, I don't see Jeb as being much of a bigot either so I doubt the boy was raised that way.

Indeed. Of course, there is the danger of someone cozying up to bigots to win election, but its possible that the Bush family has enough contacts in Texas that George P. could work to marginalize at least the worst of the bigots instead.

339 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:29:58pm

re: #132 HappyWarrior

But they're the only true Americans, how do I know this? They told me so!

There was this girl we knew in high school who was always telling my friend T that she was a better Christian than T. T was the kind of humble, accepting person who, in fact, reported to me that M was a better Christian than she. I asked on what basis she said this. "M says so."

Just to give you some context, there really aren't a lot of better Christians than T.

340 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:32:23pm

re: #166 Kragar

But episodes 1-3 taught us Jedi who love = dark side.

More technically, I think they showed us that if you take a child away from his mother, raise him in an environment where love is forbidden, give him massive power, and refuse to get him psychological help, it's entirely possible that he may murder you in your beds, and frankly, I have no sympathy for any of you over the age of eighteen or so when that happens.

341 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:34:11pm

re: #337 lostlakehiker

or some mix of the two.

Ding Ding Ding

We have a winner!

342 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:34:18pm

re: #331 Dark_Falcon

You really own a Rolls-Royce?

I really do, 1968 Silver Shadow. I bought it a couple of years ago for less than the price of a new Hyundai. The real barrier to ownership is the cost of parts and maintenance, which can be exorbitant. My brother in Colorado knows a lot about these cars and he helps with parts. It's also a little heavy on gas, but not as bad as a lot of much less expensive cars. I drive it about once a week to keep everything turning and on special occasions like my daughter's graduation.

343 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:35:27pm

BBIAB, dinner

344 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:37:27pm

re: #340 SanFranciscoZionist

More technically, I think they showed us that if you take a child away from his mother, raise him in an environment where love is forbidden, give him massive power, and refuse to get him psychological help, it's entirely possible that he may murder you in your beds, and frankly, I have no sympathy for any of you over the age of eighteen or so when that happens.

No therapists there are in Star Wars Expanded Universe, only Jedi bootstraps and the Dark Side....

345 RadicalModerate  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:37:51pm

Hey, Republicans.

You know, if you went with the idea that we had back in the early 1990s, instead of stamping your feet regarding financial impact on employers, we wouldn't even be having this discussion right now. That same option that you fought tooth and nail against during the "Obamacare" debates.

Remember single-payer?

Employers' tax burden would have been much MUCH lower under that system, as it was handled as a line item under payroll taxes - like Medicare and Social Security currently are, with a hard ceiling on how much an employer, and employee are required to contribute. But we all know that didn't fly, because it would have eaten into the absolutely insane profits that for-profit health insurance companies are currently gouging everyone for.
As for caregiver costs being so high? Three guesses why that is. Once again, insurance companies gouging doctors with excessively high malpractice insurance rates, because there are maybe one in a hundred who are negligent in their caregiving - and who rightly should have to pay for that. Funny that a huge amount of that burden goes away under single-payer as well.

346 lostlakehiker  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:38:08pm

re: #333 Killgore Trout

Interesting thoughts. I would guess the Germans might be a good model for us to look at for inspiration. Huge economy, decent manufacturing sector, all without the massive global military budget. I don't know how economically viable it is but I have a personal philosophical objection to our obscene consumer culture. Germans and Europeans are slightly better on this front but not by much. I know modern economics depends on rampant consumerism and perpetual growth. Culturally speaking I don't think it's healthy.

I ran across a newspaper article in Germany decades ago on just that topic of "growth". The headline was "Dem Wachsen Geweiht?" Meaning, roughly, "condemned to growth"? The point was that exponential growth is unsustainable and undesirable.

Me, I figure that of course it's unsustainable over the long term. But I revel in the exponential and rapid increase in consumption of CPU cycles. It's way cool what we can do with computers now. Until we bump up against the limits of physics, the more, the merrier.

Thing is, with fossil fuels, we are in fact running up against the limits of physics. Same, though not so immediately, when it comes to the supply of a basket of various elemental resources. I like Europe's embrace of the bicycle. People of almost all ages can get around readily on bikes, they use no fossil fuel, they're convenient for short trips, etc. We wouldn't have to live in utterly cramped quarters the way we would if everybody had to walk. And autos can be available for longer trips, just so there's not a daily grind of 20, 40, or more. Bikes are autonomous. You don't have to wait for a bus to come along. You don't have to go where the bus goes. And you can kill two birds with one stone. It's the rare Dutchman who's morbidly obese.

347 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:38:22pm

Decided to cancel a proposal to go to museum with a "friend".

She doesn't like Obamacare giving "free healthcare." Screw her if she doesn't give a damn about others. I'm quite willing to cut off even family for being nutty anti-Obama. What is a friend worth, especially after the crap since last year. So many abandoned me, what does it matter?

348 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:40:53pm

re: #334 SanFranciscoZionist

General Petraeus is coming to your house to eat Ma Po tofu? Wouldn't General Tsao's chicken be more appropriate? Also, do you really want to take sides like that? His wife will be offended.

The last time I made General Tso's chicken that volcano in Iceland erupted. I questioned the timing.

349 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:40:56pm

re: #274 Barflytom

That's exactly what it is if the government won't let people take their own money wherever they want.
The fact that a lot of dems are fine with the idea of just confiscating money from people they envy isn't a very comforting thought.

Aaaand that's where you give away your argument. The obsessive idea that 'envy' is a motivating factor.

350 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:41:05pm

re: #347 ProGunLiberal

Wanted to see Van Gogh at the Denver Art Museum, and the Pompeii Exhibit at the Denver Museum of Nature and Science with someone else.

I'd rather do it alone than with some fruitcake Free-Marketeer.

351 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:41:08pm

re: #332 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Well George P. is half Mexican and apparently has been doing Latino community outreach/building in Texas in preparation for his eventual (now imminent) foray into local politics. So possibly the bigot doesn't apply this time, I don't see Jeb as being much of a bigot either so I doubt the boy was raised that way.

No Jeb's definitely been a bigot. In the past he called gay rights and feminism "modern victim movements."

352 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:42:12pm

re: #351 goddamnedfrank

No Jeb's definitely been a bigot. In the past he called gay rights and feminism "modern victim movements."

Is that the worst bigoted thing he has said?

353 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:42:13pm

re: #283 Barflytom

In other words, you think the government should have a claim on every dime of wealth in the country, and we should just be grateful for whatever we're allowed to keep for ourselves.

Do you want this to be a free country or not ? That's what it comes down to.

I think everyone needs to chip in what they can for the shit that we need. If they don't, this will not be a free country for long.

'Free' does not mean 'tax free'.

354 jaunte  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:43:44pm

How did so many conservatives grow to be such shaky-kneed cowards?

355 Interesting Times  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:44:18pm

re: #354 jaunte

356 jaunte  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:45:00pm

Pearlclutch City.

357 Sophist is the VillageGreen Preservation Society  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:45:19pm

re: #30 Mich-again

I question the timing.

Timing!

358 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:46:19pm

Am I being too dismissive of anybody on the other side?

I fully admit, I haven't listened to a Republicans beliefs on Morality since Utoya.

359 lostlakehiker  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:47:03pm

re: #279 watching you tiny alien kittens are

It is simple, if Iran wants a nuke badly enough it will get one, there really isn't anything else we can do besides the sanctions. We are not going into Iran with large scale ground forces and that is what we would have to do to actually stop them.

Do you remember what happened when North Korea got the bomb...thats right nothing happened. Except for Bush quietly taking their name off of his "countries that support terror" list that is. North Korea became another face at the table where the mutually assured destruction game is played and life went on.

When Iran gets the bomb the same thing will happen for the same reasons, our treaties with South Korea assure the North of our retaliation against an attack on the South. Life goes on. Iran will be assured of our retaliation against any attack on Israel because of our support treaties and again life will go on.

It might not be so simple. If Iran has the bomb, then Egypt and Saudi Arabia "need" it too. Because those Shia are... yadda yadda. In my pessimistic moments, I figure that the only way this proliferation is going to end is with a regional nuclear war that serves as an object lesson to all of the perils of having the damned things. We have greatly diminished our arsenal. Part of the reason was that each bomb we had was mirrored (give or take) by one in the Soviet Union. Building one for ourselves was a slow and unreliable way to build one over there and get it aimed at us. The answer to this fix is to decommission most of the ones we had and invite the Soviets/Russians to reciprocate. They, looking at the same dynamic we were seeing, did reciprocate to some extent, and now we're both somewhat safer. But too many nonnuclear countries don't seem to get it that while it would be just about unthinkable for a nuclear power to nuke a non-nuclear power, when two nuclear powers square off, risks are much higher.

360 jaunte  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:47:52pm

10 Rules for Students, Teachers, and Life by John Cage and Sister Corita Kent

"The only rule is work. If you work it will lead to something. It’s the people who do all of the work all of the time who eventually catch on to things."

361 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:48:59pm

re: #354 jaunte

How did so many conservatives grow to be such shaky-kneed cowards?

10 Start with a mythology about how pathetic, womanish, and weak one's opponents are.

20 Develop the mythos further of how tough and clever you are, and how easy it would be to beat your opponent.

30 Discover your mythology was basically ego masturbation.

40 Isolate yourself and re-build mythology that you're even tougher.

50 GOTO 10

362 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:50:53pm

re: #352 Daniel Ballard

Is that the worst bigoted thing he has said?

Minimize it if you want, it's pretty fucking lame.

Q: Do you believe that the Florida government should include sexual orientation in Florida’s anti-discrimination laws?
A: No.
Q: Do you believe that the Florida government should recognize same-sex marriages?
A: No.

Dude's a bigot.

363 wrenchwench  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:51:04pm

re: #347 ProGunLiberal

Decided to cancel a proposal to go to museum with a "friend".

She doesn't like Obamacare giving "free healthcare." Screw her if she doesn't give a damn about others. I'm quite willing to cut off even family for being nutty anti-Obama. What is a friend worth, especially after the crap since last year. So many abandoned me, what does it matter?

If she has a heart and a brain and any other redeeming qualities, it might be worth trying to reason with her. But if not, you probably saved yourself from future, deeper disappointment.

364 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:57:16pm

re: #363 wrenchwench

No, just as a friend.

I am just bitter to the other side. It will be to at least 2016 before Norway has no emotional impact on me.

I now this because I got emotionally involved in Hurricane Katrina. It wasn't until 2010 that I was able to coolly assess it and realize that Nagin was a corrupt, thuggish, disconnected POS who is responsible for the deaths in one of America's Cultural Capitals.

365 jaunte  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:57:29pm

Rupert Murdoch, testing the GOP's subtle new Hispanic outreach.

366 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 5:58:33pm
The Supreme Court rejected an appeal Monday by four men who challenged Florida's ban on adoption by gay couples, avoiding another contentious fight over gay rights.

Florida is the only state with a blanket law prohibiting homosexuals from adopting children, but the high court was told that other states could now feel free to copy the ban.

Opponents argued that the 1977 law, passed at the height of Anita Bryant's anti-homosexual campaign, was irrational because it excluded potential parents for thousands of abandoned children.

...

"The plain and well-understood purpose of the ban was to tell gay people to go back into the closet," ACLU attorney Matthew Coles told justices in a filing.

Florida Gov. Jeb Bush has maintained that the children, often products of troubled and unstable backgrounds, should have a father and a mother.

"It is rational to believe that children need male and female influences to develop optimally, particularly in the areas of sexual and gender identity, and heterosexual role modeling," justices were told in a filing by Florida's attorney, Casey Walker.

Yeah, fuck that guy. Dude had his chance to make the right choice, decided to govern like a bigoted piece of shit.

367 gwangung  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:01:01pm
"It is rational to believe that children need male and female influences to develop optimally, particularly in the areas of sexual and gender identity, and heterosexual role modeling," justices were told in a filing by Florida's attorney, Casey Walker.

Not when the EVIDENCE (and science) says it's not particularly necessary.

368 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:01:08pm

re: #362 goddamnedfrank

Okay so all it takes in your view is to oppose gay marriage and your a bigot? Right up there with Fred Phelps?

369 EPR-radar  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:02:42pm

re: #358 ProGunLiberal

Am I being too dismissive of anybody on the other side?

I fully admit, I haven't listened to a Republicans beliefs on Morality since Utoya.

Although I oppose US Republican policy positions across the board, equating them with Utoya, at this time, is going much too far. Murderous lunatics like Brevik exist everywhere (including the US) but in the US they are effectively marginalized and have no political power.

The main problem with US Republicans is all of the less extreme (but still very destructive) stuff that is not marginalized in the party, like reality denial, creationism, misogyny, homophobia, voodoo economics etc.

You only help your political enemies by giving them an easy target to refute.

370 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:03:57pm

Should mention that, during the election, I caused a minor controversy by insulting a Republican Cousin on my Dad's side. The only member of the immediate family to vote republican. Got it from my Uncle's Ex-Wife.

Uncle got a job recently and Boat-Building place in FL. Considering Sandy, they will be busy for a while.

371 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:04:10pm

re: #368 Daniel Ballard

Okay so all it takes in your view is to oppose gay marriage and your a bigot? Right up there with Fred Phelps?

Not just that. Also opposing equal rights for gay people in the workplace, adoption, and everywhere else discrimination laws apply.

372 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:05:33pm

re: #368 Daniel Ballard

Okay so all it takes in your view is to oppose gay marriage and your a bigot? Right up there with Fred Phelps?

When you characterize feminism and/or gay rights as "fake victimhood"--which is pretty much Rush Limbaugh's preferred dismissal/insult--then yes...yes you are a bigot. Especially if you use your legislative power to enforce that position.

Also, straw Phelps is straw.

373 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:05:42pm

re: #369 EPR-radar

That is a problem the older guys here are familiar with. At times, I can completely put it in a box, other times, I can be the Democratic Mirror for Obama's "Bitter and Clinging to Guns and Religion" quote.

374 Interesting Times  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:05:56pm

Oooh, good one:

375 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:06:49pm

re: #368 Daniel Ballard

Okay so all it takes in your view is to oppose gay marriage and your a bigot? Right up there with Fred Phelps?

And adoption, and equal protection from discrimination. Yep, right up there with Fred Phelps, worse in as much as Phelps has never had any real power to actually affect people's lives or obstruct their rights and equality under the law, and Jeb did.

376 EPR-radar  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:07:37pm

re: #368 Daniel Ballard

Okay so all it takes in your view is to oppose gay marriage and your a bigot? Right up there with Fred Phelps?

There are degrees of bigotry. Not all bigots rise to the level of a Fred Phelps.

Now, I am unaware of any argument for opposing gay marriage that is not rooted in irrational anti-gay animus. Thus, opposition to gay marriage is, on its face, evidence of bigotry.

Perhaps there is a rational argument against gay marriage that does not depend on irrational animus. If I ever hear one, the preceding logic would no longer hold.

377 wrenchwench  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:07:41pm
378 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:08:00pm

re: #374 Interesting Times

How did I not notice that?

379 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:08:05pm

re: #375 goddamnedfrank

Well given so much beyond opposing gay marriage I agree with you.

380 Interesting Times  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:09:30pm

re: #368 Daniel Ballard

Okay so all it takes in your view is to oppose gay interracial marriage and your a bigot? Right up there with Fred Phelps the KKK?

Not saying that's what you think, just pointing out the rather fatal flaw in this type of argument.

381 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:09:36pm

re: #301 b_snark

Just looking at infrastructure like sewer, water and electrical, the average homeowner could not pay for the small chunk just in front of her/his property without government subsidization. No way farmers or other rural citizens could pay for installing those same utilities, the roads and the bureaucracy necessary to track land use and sales without government support.

Even survivalists who live in isolated compounds relied on government financed roads, utilities, surveyors and land ownership enforcement. Barfly hasn't thought beyond his own selfish envy and fear.

And that underlines the fact that the dimwits who shriek about the "national debt' refuse to value the 'national patrimony' that my grandkids are inheriting. They're getting a free, stable country, a gazillion dollars worth of munitions to keep it that way, and an incalculable fortune in poured roadway so they can go out and see it.

The 'generational theft' argument is bullshit.

382 EPR-radar  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:09:45pm

re: #373 ProGunLiberal

That is a problem the older guys here are familiar with. At times, I can completely put it in a box, other times, I can be the Democratic Mirror for Obama's "Bitter and Clinging to Guns and Religion" quote.

Oh, I've lurked long enough that it's not a surprise.

383 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:10:03pm

re: #366 goddamnedfrank

Yeah, fuck that guy. Dude had his chance to make the right choice, decided to govern like a bigoted piece of shit.

He is a Christian, not a loud obnoxious up in your grill and your business type, but just the mostly quiet personal faith type. He is also pretty damn typical of a large percentage of his generation and even larger percentage of his faith in seeing being Gay as perverse. It is what he was taught and how he was raised, but he has since overcome this to a degree. You might want to check some newer sources like this one for instance...

Jeb Bush: Loving Same-Sex Parents Should Be ‘Held Up As Examples For Others’

BUSH: I don’t think people need to be discriminated against because they don’t share my belief on this, and if people love their children with all their heart and soul and that’s what they do and that’s how they organize their life that should be held up as examples for others to follow because we need it. We desperately need it and that can take all sorts of forms, it doesn’t have to take the one that I think should be sanctioned under the law.

That is some really hardcore bigotry right there for sure. ///

384 Decatur Deb  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:10:35pm

re: #342 Shiplord Kirel

I really do, 1968 Silver Shadow. I bought it a couple of years ago for less than the price of a new Hyundai. The real barrier to ownership is the cost of parts and maintenance, which can be exorbitant. My brother in Colorado knows a lot about these cars and he helps with parts. It's also a little heavy on gas, but not as bad as a lot of much less expensive cars. I drive it about once a week to keep everything turning and on special occasions like my daughter's graduation.

Nice car, but the clock is too loud.

385 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:11:04pm

I love it when people think they're being reasonable and level headed by finding ways to condone or minimize real world bigotry and equal rights violations. Hey the guy only made life for gays worse in both de facto and de jure ways, but at least he didn't walk around in a sandwich board emblazoned with the horrible f-word, telling them they were going to hell.

386 allegro  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:11:16pm

re: #379 Daniel Ballard

Well given so much beyond opposing gay marriage I agree with you.

Opposing the civil rights of LGBT individuals isn't enough?

387 b_Snark  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:12:03pm

I've heard from the right that increasing tax rates for the rich will not increase revenues much so why bother.

I did a little back of the envelope calculation and found that if you tax everybody at the same rate, people making over $200,000/year, the top 2.57%, impact revenues more than the bottom 97.43% by 13%.

388 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:13:42pm

re: #382 EPR-radar

Had comments from my Grand-dad saying I was more bitter than he has ever been. He is 75 years old, and is paralyzed from the waist down.

But then, he is a sweet old teddy-bear of a man. Was gobsmacked when I told him how crooked the PPD is today.

389 EPR-radar  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:13:44pm

re: #380 Interesting Times

Not saying that's what you think, just pointing out the rather fatal flaw in this type of argument.

But it is _such_ a convenient argument. If bigotry is only the most extreme stuff (Phelps, KKK, etc.), and this extreme stuff has pretty much gone away, then there is no bigotry.

i.e., it's a cheap way to declare victory and go home.

390 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:14:28pm

re: #376 EPR-radar

I once made an argument not rooted in animus. Even windupbird admitted I was not a bigot at the time, quite a concession at that heated moment. My point at the time (before I changed my mind) was that same sex bonds were different enough from opposite sex life bonds that a different ceremony was called for. Something that was more unique to celebrate gay culture, unburdened of tradition between opposite sex mates. My point was a positive one. All the legal rights would happen just like a straight licensed marriage.

391 Sophist is the VillageGreen Preservation Society  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:15:27pm

re: #367 gwangung

"It is rational to believe that children need male and female influences to develop optimally..."

Unless a child is being raised in, say, a radical lesbian separatist commune, I don't think that will be a problem.

392 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:16:53pm

re: #390 Daniel Ballard

I once made an argument not rooted in animus. Even windupbird admitted I was not a bigot at the time, quite a concession at that heated moment. My point at the time (before I changed my mind) was that same sex bonds were different enough from opposite sex life bonds that a different ceremony was called for. Something that was more unique to celebrate gay culture, unburdened of tradition between opposite sex mates. My point was a positive one. All the legal rights would happen just like a straight licensed marriage.

It's still a separate but equal argument, burdened with the entirety of the awful history of that phrase. Guessing you see that now.

393 allegro  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:17:36pm

re: #383 watching you tiny alien kittens are

BUSH: I don’t think people need to be discriminated against because they don’t share my belief on this, and if people love their children with all their heart and soul and that’s what they do and that’s how they organize their life that should be held up as examples for others to follow because we need it. We desperately need it and that can take all sorts of forms, it doesn’t have to take the one that I think should be sanctioned under the law.

The one? So others can be denied the many benefits of marriage just cuz he thinks they don't deserve it cuz.... why? Those other sweet words about love and heart and soul are bullshit and made so by that one bolded statement.

394 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:17:41pm

Also, apparently Britain will be ceasing aid payments to India by 2015.

A very reasonable move, how about Britain use that to pay for their military? They have the opposite problem than we do. They have to increase funding of their military so they could deal with Argentina over the Falklands if needed.

Hell, us and France should have an intervention for them. Like those ones for addicts. :P

395 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:20:58pm

re: #386 allegro

Opposing the civil rights of LGBT individuals isn't enough?

Yes, but there is some nuance. First, if a person were to conduct themselves fairly and justly toward gay people, opposing gay marriage in some academic sense absent of any overt hostility... That's maybe different enough from the bigots of hostile intent to fall short of that label.

I say this partly because of some who have insisted to me that bigotry is either you are or you are not, rather than a spectrum of degree. For instance Fred Phelps repels me more than Jeb Bush does. I say it's a spectrum.

396 EPR-radar  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:22:19pm

re: #387 b_snark

I've heard from the right that increasing tax rates for the rich will not increase revenues much so why bother.

I did a little back of the envelope calculation and found that if you tax everybody at the same rate, people making over $200,000/year, the top 2.57%, impact revenues more than the bottom 97.43% by 13%.

I remember seeing this steaming mound of BS (i.e., pointless to tax the rich because 100% confiscation wouldn't balance the budget) in a Wall Street Journal Op-Ed. I believe the talking point was constructed with respect to "taxable income", making it meaningless.

If 50% of the total income goes to the top 1%, then if you can get X dollars of increased revenue from an across the board income tax increase, you can get 0.5X by hitting only the top 1% with that tax increase. Options like this are worth considering, no matter how much the Republicans whine.

397 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:23:17pm

re: #395 Daniel Ballard

See, what you had in thoughts in the past was not out of bigotry, but naivety.

That is much more respectable a reason. We all have areas where we are that way.

For me, it is thinking way too big. In other areas, I am bitingly cynical and untrusting. In most areas now in fact.

398 allegro  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:26:18pm

re: #395 Daniel Ballard

Yes, but there is some nuance. First, if a person were to conduct themselves fairly and justly toward gay people, opposing gay marriage in some academic sense absent of any overt hostility... That's maybe different enough from the bigots of hostile intent to fall short of that label.

I say this partly because of some who have insisted to me that bigotry is either you are or you are not, rather than a spectrum of degree. For instance Fred Phelps repels me more than Jeb Bush does. I say it's a spectrum.

I say it's a very simple matter of civil rights. We all have them or we don't. Yes or no. There really is no spectrum.

399 EPR-radar  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:26:57pm

re: #390 Daniel Ballard

I once made an argument not rooted in animus. Even windupbird admitted I was not a bigot at the time, quite a concession at that heated moment. My point at the time (before I changed my mind) was that same sex bonds were different enough from opposite sex life bonds that a different ceremony was called for. Something that was more unique to celebrate gay culture, unburdened of tradition between opposite sex mates. My point was a positive one. All the legal rights would happen just like a straight licensed marriage.

To my mind, this doesn't seem like an argument against gay marriage at all. The substantive point of the debate has always been legal recognition by civil authorities (on completely equal terms), which your proposal appears to grant, assuming the different ceremony is legally recognized as "marriage" by the state..

400 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:28:16pm

re: #399 EPR-radar
re: #392 goddamnedfrank

It's still a separate but equal argument, burdened with the entirety of the awful history of that phrase. Guessing you see that now.

I do. Strictly IMO-But in some rare matters separate but equal works best. My analogy is less confrontational than the one you cite. Different religions and cultures have separate ceremonies and holidays that enjoy equal protection under the law. As they should.

To me if gay people had chosen to create their own traditional ceremony I would have supported it in the same spirit as I support various cultural marriages, Islamic holidays and Christian or Buddhist ones. I submit to reality. LGBT people chose to embrace the tradition of marriage. I support their choice.

401 Sophist is the VillageGreen Preservation Society  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:30:02pm

re: #390 Daniel Ballard

I once made an argument not rooted in animus. Even windupbird admitted I was not a bigot at the time, quite a concession at that heated moment. My point at the time (before I changed my mind) was that same sex bonds were different enough from opposite sex life bonds that a different ceremony was called for. Something that was more unique to celebrate gay culture, unburdened of tradition between opposite sex mates. My point was a positive one. All the legal rights would happen just like a straight licensed marriage.

I think they meant any internally coherent argument for opposing gay marriage, because that argument is bullshit in like five different ways. There's no way you can square a belief that the ceremony for any given couple needs to reflect the nature of their "bonds" (whatever the hell that means) with a belief that all the myriad of sorts of bonds that heterosexuals have belong in one category. If you really believed that you would be pushing for a whole bunch of ceremonies, not just a separate "gay" one along side the regular kind.

Also, that "Something that was more unique to celebrate gay culture" shit is really condescending and paternalistic. Would you propose a law that Chinese Americans only be allowed to have traditional Chinese weddings? That's an argument for why gay people might want their own ceremony, not why the should be compelled to have one.

402 OhNoZombies!  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:31:19pm

Hello everyone.
I hate being so freakin late.

Anyway, here's the thing, everything the GOP has done lately, has involved a conspiracy. From lying their way into Iraq, to voter suppression efforts, they sit in rooms trying to figure out ways to take power without actually earning it.

During this election season, for example, their dirty tricks were on full display, because, for some reason, they don't believe that people have the power to record everything they say.
It's not a great leap for them to see a conspiracy, because that's what they would do.

$.02

403 kirkspencer  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:32:03pm

A small point on the bigotry point. Yes, there is a range of degree. However, it's like pregnancy: at the core it either is or is not.

She's just a little pregnant...

404 b_Snark  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:32:25pm

re: #402 OhNoZombies!

Hello everyone.
I hate being so freakin late.

Anyway, here's the thing, everything the GOP has done lately, has involved a conspiracy. From lying their way into Iraq, to voter suppression efforts, they sit in rooms trying to figure out ways to take power without actually earning it.

During this election season, for example, their dirty tricks were on full display, because, for some reason, they don't believe that people have the power to record everything they say.
It's not a great leap for them to see a conspiracy, because that's what they would do.

$.02

How much is that in 1850 dollars?

405 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:33:47pm

re: #385 goddamnedfrank

I love it when people think they're being reasonable and level headed by finding ways to condone or minimize real world bigotry and equal rights violations. Hey the guy only made life for gays worse in both de facto and de jure ways, but at least he didn't walk around in a sandwich board emblazoned with the horrible f-word, telling them they were going to hell.

You know what, Winston Churchill was a horribly obnoxious unrepentant racist and bigot of the worst sort. He backed colonialism in Africa, India and elsewhere, insulted black American soldiers during WWII and was generally by todays standards a total douche.

But he was not being measured against todays mores, he was being measured against what was common then, and his beliefs were pretty damn common then. Historians always warn that people must be assessed against the background of their own time, not your current standards.

The Gay rights movement sprung up from almost nothing only 40 odd years ago and has made tremendous progress in such a short span of time. Acceptance of the Gays and even better approval of Gays is now common place with just slightly over half the population agreeing that marriage equality's time has come.

However that still leaves the other 48% of the population who disapprove of Gay equality as a product of their times and their morals to automatic take offense and dismiss them with anger as bigots is rather an oversimplification of things and also a very poor way of winning converts. You might try a little less outright antipathy in your approach to people trying to reconcile their entire life experience towards what for them is a fairly new and rather shocking idea, that Gays are just people too.

406 OhNoZombies!  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:34:38pm

re: #404 b_snark

How much is that in 1850 dollars?

Like $250,000.

407 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:35:00pm

re: #401 Sophist is the VillageGreen Preservation Society

I think they meant any internally coherent argument for opposing gay marriage, because that argument is bullshit in like five different ways. There's no way you can square a belief that the ceremony for any given couple needs to reflect the nature of their "bonds" (whatever the hell that means) with a belief that all the myriad of sorts of bonds that heterosexuals have belong in one category. If you really believed that you would be pushing for a whole bunch of ceremonies, not just a separate "gay" one along side the regular kind.

I don' seek to require many ceremonies I intend to offer them freely with equal protection under the law. Look this is a quirky opinion of my own, that just happens to reflect my "all inclusive" approch to things cultural / lifestyle oriented and again-with that equal protection under the law point foremost.

All I seek to persuade anyone of is that cultural freedom as a general principle and the importance of the equal protection.

408 allegro  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:37:13pm

re: #401 Sophist is the VillageGreen Preservation Society

I think they meant any internally coherent argument for opposing gay marriage, because that argument is bullshit in like five different ways. There's no way you can square a belief that the ceremony for any given couple needs to reflect the nature of their "bonds" (whatever the hell that means) with a belief that all the myriad of sorts of bonds that heterosexuals have belong in one category. If you really believed that you would be pushing for a whole bunch of ceremonies, not just a separate "gay" one along side the regular kind.

The ceremony is not the "thing." It is merely the way individual couples choose to recognize and formalize the "thing" or their relationships. Hell, my late husband and I had a barbecue-by-the-way-we're-getting-married party. The ceremony is only that, a party. What counts is the legal recognition and benefits of that recognition. The rests is just icing on the wedding cake.

409 The Questionable Timing of a Flea  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:37:43pm

re: #395 Daniel Ballard

Yes, but there is some nuance. First, if a person were to conduct themselves fairly and justly toward gay people, opposing gay marriage in some academic sense absent of any overt hostility... That's maybe different enough from the bigots of hostile intent to fall short of that label.

No, because hostility isn't the measure of bigotry. Refusal to accept equivalence or sameness is the measure of bigotry.

Try the same argument but switch out gay marriage with interracial marriage and test your reaction. (This is not an accusation; it's just a very good litmus test for the "logic" of gay marriage arguments)

I say this partly because of some who have insisted to me that bigotry is either you are or you are not, rather than a spectrum of degree. For instance Fred Phelps repels me more than Jeb Bush does. I say it's a spectrum.

Going by the dictionary definition, bigot = "obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices"

I'd argue that bigotry is an binary state, while ferocity/intensity of bigotry is a spectrum. And if you're soft enough in your intensity, you might actually become a non-bigot. There is, however, no combinations of state whereby you're non a bigot, yet have intense and intolerant devotion to a basic premise that incorporates a prejudice.

In turn, the offensiveness of Phelps versus Jeb Bush* isn't a measure of bigotry, but of social trangression--etiquette, manners, conduct--engaged in whilst presenting their opinion. Hence the entire issue of "soft bigotry"--holding racist/sexist/etc assumptions not because one is hateful, but because one can't be bothered to change one's mind or entertain contrary evidence.

*as per tiny alien kitties' post, it seems Jeb has tempered his opinion such that he's not-a-bigot, though I don't know if his legislative record has changed....

410 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:37:51pm

re: #393 allegro

The one? So others can be denied the many benefits of marriage just cuz he thinks they don't deserve it cuz.... why? Those other sweet words about love and heart and soul are bullshit and made so by that one bolded statement.

He upheld the wishes of his constituents, it wasn't just him standing tall and defying the wave of human progress. The vast majority of the people in Florida who he was elected to represent backed him 100% on this. Sorry but they did, so it really didn't matter what he thought or said anyway because there was no way he was going to change it.

Blame him if you want but that is the truth of where things were then.

411 OhNoZombies!  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:38:57pm

On the issue of marriage equality, I see it as a civil rights issue.
All marriage through the state is a civil union.
Why not just change the legal name for all marriage recognized through the states into civil unions, and leave the semantics for churches?

412 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:39:54pm

re: #397 ProGunLiberal

See, what you had in thoughts in the past was not out of bigotry, but naivety.

That is much more respectable a reason. We all have areas where we are that way.

For me, it is thinking way too big. In other areas, I am bitingly cynical and untrusting. In most areas now in fact.

Thank you for that. And I find it likely you will find balance to cynicism consistent with a fair loyalty to facts.

413 EPR-radar  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:44:44pm

re: #411 OhNoZombies!

On the issue of marriage equality, I see it as a civil rights issue.
All marriage through the state is a civil union.
Why not just change the legal name for all marriage recognized through the states into civil unions, and leave the semantics for churches?

Why change the name from "marriage" to "civil union"?

The churches can always do as they please, so this name change would have no effect there.

414 allegro  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:46:22pm

re: #410 watching you tiny alien kittens are

He upheld the wishes of his constituents, it wasn't just him standing tall and defying the wave of human progress. The vast majority of the people in Florida who he was elected to represent backed him 100% on this. Sorry but they did, so it really didn't matter what he thought or said anyway because there was no way he was going to change it.

Blaming him if you want but that is the truth of where things were then.

And that is moving the goalposts from the question of bigotry. Because others may share that bigotry doesn't make it less bigoted.

415 OhNoZombies!  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:52:48pm

re: #413 EPR-radar

Why change the name from "marriage" to "civil union"?

The churches can always do as they please, so this name change would have no effect there.

Screw them.
They want to deny an entire segment of the population happiness and security for their loved ones, and they wield the word "marriage" as a bludgeon.
Take the power out of the word, and make it a legal issue. If a church wants to call a civil union a marriage, whether it's same or opposite sex, let them, but don't allow them the power to deny basic human rights.

416 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 6:58:54pm

re: #404 b_snark

How much is that in 1850 dollars?

2 cents in 1850 bought what 53 cents will today.

[Link: www.westegg.com...]

417 OhNoZombies!  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 7:00:12pm

re: #415 OhNoZombies!

Screw them.
They want to deny an entire segment of the population happiness and security for their loved ones, and they wield the word "marriage" as a bludgeon.
Take the power out of the word, and make it a legal issue. If a church wants to call a civil union a marriage, whether it's same or opposite sex, let them, but don't allow them the power to deny basic human rights.

They don't pay taxes, so they don't get a say.
More evidence of the brilliance in the concept of the separation between church and state.

418 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 7:02:28pm

re: #414 allegro

And that is moving the goalposts from the question of bigotry. Because others may share that bigotry doesn't make it less bigoted.

I already explained my answer to that about as well as I can formulate it in #405 to which you replied "The one? So others can be denied the many benefits of marriage just cuz he thinks they don't deserve it cuz... why?"

My intent was to merely to say that he was by no means "The one" when he was Governor not even remotely did he decide solely by himself. BTW when he made that comment your picking out he wasn't even in public office anymore so it was simply him stating a personal opinion. He wasn't talking as a Governor when he said "it doesn’t have to take the one that I think should be sanctioned under the law."

That is all it was, the opinion of just another private citizen, another one of the 48% of this country who still do not approve of Gay marriage. That pretty much exhausts anything I have to say on this topic.

419 EPR-radar  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 7:02:32pm

re: #415 OhNoZombies!

Screw them.
They want to deny an entire segment of the population happiness and security for their loved ones, and they wield the word "marriage" as a bludgeon.
Take the power out of the word, and make it a legal issue. If a church wants to call a civil union a marriage, whether it's same or opposite sex, let them, but don't allow them the power to deny basic human rights.

I don't understand what you are driving at. The churches are irrelevant. The state presently defines a legal status of "married", and mostly limits this to man-women couples.

Replacing "marriage" with "civil union" in state laws is a no-op, unless substantive rights are changed. If the rights are changed to equality, the name change is pointless, in my opinion, because the opposition would not be reduced by the name change.

I used to believe some form of civil unions was the answer. Now I support full marriage equality (i.e., including the word itself).

420 allegro  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 7:34:37pm

re: #418 watching you tiny alien kittens are

I already explained my answer to that about as well as I can formulate it in #405 to which you replied "The one? So others can be denied the many benefits of marriage just cuz he thinks they don't deserve it cuz... why?"

My intent was to merely to say that he was by no means "The one" when he was Governor not even remotely did he decide solely by himself. BTW when he made that comment your picking out he wasn't even in public office anymore so it was simply him stating a personal opinion. He wasn't talking as a Governor when he said "it doesn’t have to take the one that I think should be sanctioned under the law."

That is all it was, the opinion of just another private citizen, another one of the 48% of this country who still do not approve of Gay marriage. That pretty much exhausts anything I have to say on the topic.

"The one" that I pointed out was Jeb's words for the one relationship he believed deserved legal recognition, i.e. male/female only. With this, he clearly stated that he felt any other relationships were not worthy of legal recognition or benefits. He clearly feels that LGBT couples are not deserving of the same rights as the rest of us. IMO, he's a bigot by his own words.

421 OhNoZombies!  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 8:10:11pm

re: #419 EPR-radar

I don't understand what you are driving at. The churches are irrelevant. The state presently defines a legal status of "married", and mostly limits this to man-women couples.

Replacing "marriage" with "civil union" in state laws is a no-op, unless substantive rights are changed. If the rights are changed to equality, the name change is pointless, in my opinion, because the opposition would not be reduced by the name change.

I used to believe some form of civil unions was the answer. Now I support full marriage equality (i.e., including the word itself).

Church people always say , marriage is between one man and one woman. The word is the crux of their argument.

I get what your saying, but what I mean is, make the rights equal, and use the term civil union as the term that encompasses all marriages.

My marriage to my husband is a civil union. My friend's marriage to his husband would be a civil union with exactly the same benefits as my own.

I don't do separate but equal.

422 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 9:08:34pm

re: #420 allegro

Sigh...whatever, so almost half the country are Bigots, not intolerant, not inflexible, not religiously observant, not merely naive in their appraisal of the changing facts, but Bigots with a capitol B. Congratulations you have just devalued the word beyond any real sense of meaning or true impact.

I'm sure people yelling Bigot in their face will quickly make them see the light and the error of their entire life and upbringing to date. This of course will result in them immediately responding to Gays in more friendly and evenhanded manner. :p

Bryan Fischer is a Bigot, but I guess now that doesn't make him in any way worse than Jeb Bush or many other people of the 40s-50s generations.

423 danhenry1  Fri, Nov 9, 2012 10:19:43pm

re: #18 Charles Johnson

Hi Charles,
What is really getting to me is that General Petreaus, was, and still is a great Commander. He has led our forces with honor, and a deep love for all they do. He has made a great blunder, as most of us do at some time in our lives of some sort or other.
You would think that those that consider themselves conservative, republican, democrat..or what have you would look at this great sorrow, and also gratitude for his (Petreaus) service, and leadership.
We have a whole bunch of soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines, who are in and will be in arms way for the foreseeable future. Those that make 'Politic', these troubles are far more guilty of jeopardizing our men and woman, than any mistakes made in Libya.
I'll blame the Fox network if more harm comes to them.
I kind of meander and ramble through this idea...lack of my Ritalin on an aging ADD body...hope you follow.
Dan

424 African Moonbat  Sat, Nov 10, 2012 1:35:45am

re: #209 erik_t

As an 18-29 year old white male, I don't give a tenth of a crap about the deficit compared to how much I care about my friends and family having good jobs, health care, and good public education for our little ones.

The deficit can go fuck a bike tire.

What a stupid statement!


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