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Benghazi Boogaloo: Susan Rice Simply Relayed the CIA’s Benghazi Talking Points

Ludicrous fake scandal is ludicrous
Politics • Views: 26,835

CBS News has obtained the talking points prepared by the CIA for Susan Rice following the Benghazi attack, and of course there are no surprises — Rice simply passed on the information she was given by the CIA: CIA Talking Points for Susan Rice Called Benghazi Attack ‘Spontaneously Inspired’ by Protests.

The CIA’s talking points read as follows:

“The currently available information suggests that the demonstrations in Benghazi were spontaneously inspired by the protests at the US Embassy in Cairo and evolved into a direct assault against the US diplomatic post in Benghazi and subsequently its annex. There are indications that extremists participated in the violent demonstrations.

This assessment may change as additional information is collected and analyzed and as currently available information continues to be evaluated.

The investigation is on-going, and the US Government is working with Libyan authorities to bring to justice those responsible for the deaths of US citizens.”

For the record, here’s the video of Rice’s appearance on Meet the Press, and as you can see she was very clear that this was not the final word, but simply the best information they had at the time.

Meanwhile, as the Republican Party continues flipping its lid over this ludicrous non-scandal, John McCain is calling for a Watergate-style special committee to investigate the Obama administration’s handling of the Benghazi attack, but couldn’t find the time to attend a classified briefing on the Benghazi attack yesterday. Classic.

UPDATE at 11/15/12 2:41:10 pm

When questioned today by CNN about missing the Benghazi briefing, McCain snapped and yelled, “Who the hell are you to tell me?”

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275 comments

1 BongCrodny  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:32:25pm

Attending meetings is boring when compared with getting your mug on TV and yelling at clouds.

2 Mich-again  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:33:08pm

Maybe Paula Broadwell called to talk about a book deal?

3 HappyWarrior  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:34:56pm

McCain's pathetic. Still unbelievably bitter at the fact that Obama beat him in 2008 and his actions here show it big time.

4 Lidane  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:35:02pm

What part of Benghazi being an attack ON us and not a scandal BY us is so hard to understand?

5 jaunte  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:36:35pm

re: #4 Lidane

It's hard to understand because the president isn't a grayish-pink Republican.

6 darthstar  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:39:58pm

Mitt Romney knew this, as he was given the same talking points due to his elevated status as a candidate for President.

John McCain knew this because he's on the Homeland Security committee and he was given the same documents.

Lindsey Graham knew this because John McCain talks in his sleep.

It wouldn't surprise me if one of the above three gave this information to Fox News in exchange for air time.

7 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:40:47pm

I'll post again the Google interactive map that shows the more than 50 protests and attacks that were contemporaneous to the Benghazi raid. They were all deemed inspired by the anti-Muhammed Youtube video.

8 Kragar  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:41:14pm

AUDIO: Romney Suggests Democrats Run On Free Dental Care In 2016

On one such call, a recording of which was obtained by ABC, Romney explained that Obama’s health care law, long considered one of the president’s biggest vulnerabilities by top Republicans, actually rallied Democratic base voters against him. The former Republican nominee said Obama followed “a proven political strategy, which is give a bunch of money to a group and, guess what, they’ll vote for you.”

“What I would do if I were a Democrat running four years from now, I’d say, you know what, dental care will be included in Obamcare … and Republicans will say, no, that’s going to cost a trillion dollars, and the Democrats will say, that’s fine, you know, we’ll pay it,” Romney said in the recording.

9 Bulworth  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:46:54pm

It's almost as if the media is starting to catch on to McCain's act. Hard to believe if true.

10 Mich-again  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:47:03pm

re: #8 Kragar

“What I would do if I were a Democrat running four years from now, I’d say, you know what, dental care will be included in Obamcare … and Republicans will say, no, that’s going to cost a trillion dollars, and the Democrats will say, that’s fine, you know, we’ll pay it,” Romney said in the recording.

His folks should have named him Dick.

11 HappyWarrior  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:47:17pm

re: #8 Kragar

AUDIO: Romney Suggests Democrats Run On Free Dental Care In 2016

I see he's doubling down on being an asshole. Hey Mitt, here's a clue for you. People voted for Obama because they thought his policies were better than yours. I know that hurts you because you think America deserved you but we had a choice and many of us were eager to choose the president over you because he's actually a leader not a spineless hack who panders to nutcases to get nominated.

12 engineer cat  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:48:03pm

rice having information from intelligence that turned out to be inaccurate shouldn't be any more embarrassing than gen powell, when he was scty of state, going before the u.n. with cartoons of WMDs supposed to be in iraq

13 Mich-again  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:48:17pm

re: #6 darthstar

Lindsey Graham knew this because John McCain talks in his sleep.

That deserves a gold star on the forehead.

14 A Man for all Seasons  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:49:33pm

re: #11 HappyWarrior

Well there is good news for Mitt. Therapy will be covered under Obamacare

15 gwangung  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:49:34pm

re: #12 engineer cat

rice having information from intelligence that turned out to be inaccurate shouldn't be any more embarrassing than gen powell, when he was scty of state, going before the u.n. with cartoons of WMDs supposed to be in iraq

Except It's Not OK If You Are Not A Republican.

16 blueraven  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:49:55pm

So according to the FP article in this post, Rand Paul was also complaining about not enough info yet he, too, failed to attend the meeting.

the updates with their excuses?

UPDATE: According to his spokesman Brian Rogers, "Senator McCain was absent from the hearing due to a scheduling error."

UPDATE #2: Paul spokeswoman Moira Bagley tells The Cable: "Sen. Paul didn't need to attend yet another Administration press conference disguised as a classified briefing to know there should have been Marines defending our personnel in Libya, to hear the Administration make the same excuses in private they will make in public. Sen. Paul is focused on demanding answers, demanding those who made these fatal mistake be fired, and fixing the mess this Administration has made. All of that needs to be done in public, for Americans to see and hear."

[Link: thecable.foreignpolicy.com...]

Pathetic.

17 darthstar  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:50:36pm

re: #8 Kragar

AUDIO: Romney Suggests Democrats Run On Free Dental Care In 2016

If you had Ann Romney calling you a "fucking loser who can drink his milk in the den" 24/7 for a week after you lost the election to one of them, you'd be a bitter prick too.

Money can buy a lot of things, but it can't buy class. Thank you, Mitt Romney, for illustrating that perfectly.

18 HappyWarrior  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:50:43pm

re: #14 Digital Display

Well there is good news for Mitt. Therapy will be covered under Obamacare

"Doc why doesn't America love me?"

19 Bulworth  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:51:43pm

So they want more information but any attempts by the admin to provide that information will be regarded as yet another "press conference" which they don't need because they already know they don't...wait a minute, what?

20 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:51:53pm

re: #7 goddamnedfrank

I'll post again the Google interactive map that shows the more than 50 protests and attacks that were contemporaneous to the Benghazi raid. They were all deemed inspired by the anti-Muhammed Youtube video.

'Inspired by' does not mean 'spontaneously happened because of'. That's the issue.

21 darthstar  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:52:02pm

re: #13 Mich-again

That deserves a gold star on the forehead.

I really don't like those two guys. When Lindsey retires from the senate and comes out of the closet he'll be a much happier man. It must eat him up inside trying to keep up this facade.

22 HappyWarrior  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:52:18pm

So your problem is not enough information has been provided so you don't attend a hearing that will provide information and then you bitch to the press that the administration is withholding information? Yeah that's a smart strategy if your sole aim is to inflate your weak ego but to actually find out what happened in Benghazi? Nope.

23 EPR-radar  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:52:23pm

Republicans used to have principles. Principles as demonstrated by actions are much more relevant than stated principles (see, e.g., GOP platform 2012, constitution of the USSR, etc.).

The most recent example of Republican adherence to principles over party (as demonstrated by action) that I am aware of was the bipartisan nature of the threatened impeachment proceedings against Nixon (1974). I was just starting to pay attention to politics at that time, and I was impressed that Republicans of that era had some capacity to take out their own trash.

I am firmly convinced that a present-day Watergate fact pattern with a Republican president would have 100% party-line impeachment votes in Congress.

24 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:52:27pm

Susan Rice may be a lot of things but stupid isn't one of them.

She would not have made her assertiosn had she known they were problematic.

She relied on the CIA information she was given (and I'd bet that will be the last time) as it was relayed to her.

The CIA has a long history of CYA strategies that long predates this debacle. When all is said and done I'm pretty sure the CIA will have a lot to answer for.

They put Rice, Obama, the State Department and the entire intelligence community behind the eight ball. They, and not Rice or Obama will have to pay the piper.

History repeats itself.

25 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:52:45pm

re: #20 SanFranciscoZionist

'Inspired by' does not mean 'spontaneously happened because of'. That's the issue.

I mean, that to me is the issue. What it is to the wingnuts is a different matter.

26 engineer cat  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:52:59pm

if I were a Democrat running four years from now

b-b-but i thought obama's 2nd term meant massive depression and dictatorship

27 Bulworth  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:53:02pm

re: #16 blueraven

Stay classy, Rand Paul.

28 darthstar  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:53:58pm

re: #16 blueraven

So according to the FP article in this post, Rand Paul was also complaining about not enough info yet he, too, failed to attend the meeting.

the updates with their excuses?

[Link: thecable.foreignpolicy.com...]

Pathetic.

I wouldn't trust Rand Paul on a puppy committee.

29 HappyWarrior  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:54:15pm

McCain saying Susan Rice isn't qualified and that she's not intelligent is hilarious coming from the man who thought it would be a wise idea to put Sarah Palin as the number two on a presidential ticket.

30 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:54:28pm

re: #16 blueraven

All of that needs to be done in public, for Americans to see and hear.

National security be damned!

oh, wait....

31 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:54:40pm

re: #24 researchok

Susan Rice may be a lot of things but stupid isn't one of them.

She would not have made her assertiosn had she known they were problematic.

She relied on the CIA information she was given (and I'd bet that will be the last time) as it was relayed to her.

The CIA has a long history of CYA strategies that long predates this debacle. When all is said and done I'm pretty sure the CIA will have a lot to answer for.

They put Rice, Obama, the State Department and the entire intelligence community behind the eight ball. They, and not Rice or Obama will have to pay the piper.

History repeats itself.

Uh, what?

How did the CIA put anyone behind an eight ball? What's supposed to be the problem with any of this?

Seriously. I just don't get where the agita is coming from.

32 blueraven  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:54:42pm

re: #16 blueraven

So according to the FP article in this post, Rand Paul was also complaining about not enough info yet he, too, failed to attend the meeting.

the updates with their excuses?

[Link: thecable.foreignpolicy.com...]

Pathetic.

Yes Rand Paul didnt need no stinking info from these people

The closed and classified briefing included representatives from the State Department, the Defense Department, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the National Counterterrorism Center, and the FBI, an administration official said. The Senate Foreign Relations Committee held a classified hearing on Benghazi on Tuesday and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence will hold one Thursday, but McCain and Paul are not members of either of those committees.

33 HappyWarrior  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:54:48pm

re: #28 darthstar

I wouldn't trust Rand Paul on a puppy committee.

"Sorry Billy but the Constitution doesn't say your puppy has to eat therefore he doesn't eat tonight."

34 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:55:11pm

re: #26 engineer cat

if I were a Democrat running four years from now

b-b-but i thought obama's 2nd term meant massive depression and dictatorship

That doesn't mean anything BAD is actually going to happen, silly. Just that life will go on pretty much like always, while simultaneously being the worst thing EVER.

35 jaunte  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:55:19pm

re: #29 HappyWarrior

McCain saying Susan Rice isn't qualified and that she's not intelligent is hilarious coming from the man who thought it would be a wise idea to put Sarah Palin as the number two on a presidential ticket.

Hilarious, ironic, absurd, sad, pathetic...

36 Bulworth  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:55:52pm
The Senate Foreign Relations Committee held a classified hearing on Benghazi on Tuesday and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence will hold one Thursday, but McCain and Paul are not members of either of those committees.

Ah, well, thank God for that.

37 HappyWarrior  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:55:58pm

re: #35 jaunte

Hilarious, ironic, absurd, sad, pathetic...

What's sad is I used to respect this guy.

38 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:56:17pm

re: #33 HappyWarrior

"Sorry Billy but the Constitution doesn't say your puppy has to eat therefore he doesn't eat tonight."

The school I work at is having a giant upheaval about enforcement of the dress code.

The seniors demanded to know if I was a strict Constructionist or something. (Our US History teacher is excellent.)

39 jaunte  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:56:38pm

re: #35 jaunte

Hilarious, ironic, absurd, sad, pathetic...

...transparent...

40 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:57:03pm

re: #32 blueraven

Yes Rand Paul didnt need no stinking info from these people

They should all be on the Sunday talk shows, telling the American People and anyone with a TV or an internet connection everything they know about this shameful episode!!!

41 darthstar  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:57:56pm

Oh, dear...that asshole in Maine just keeps on digging.

“I have a couple friends that I play basketball with who are black and I’m sure I’m going to get a few elbows that next time we play.”
—Charlie Webster

42 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:57:57pm

re: #31 Charles Johnson

The attention is being focused on Rice, Obama, etc., and not on the CIA.

It is clear there was a load of confusion at the time and the CIA got caught with their pants down.

They are deflecting, I believe.

43 Patricia Kayden  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:57:57pm

After McCain chose Palin as his VP, I can't take anything he says seriously. Looking forward to the day when he joins Ron Paul and retires.

44 erik_t  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:59:01pm

re: #24 researchok

The CIA has a long history of CYA strategies that long predates this debacle. When all is said and done I'm pretty sure the CIA will have a lot to answer for.

They put Rice, Obama, the State Department and the entire intelligence community behind the eight ball. They, and not Rice or Obama will have to pay the piper.

History repeats itself.

Is a horrific intelligence failure, worthy of mass upheaval and many firings, the only possible explanation for an embassy attack that killed several Americans?

If so, why did none of the dozen or so embassy attacks of the last decade result in mass upheaval and many firings?

45 darthstar  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:59:45pm

re: #43 Patricia Kayden

After McCain chose Palin as his VP, I can't take anything he says seriously. Looking forward to the day when he joins Ron Paul and retires.

Yeah, but we'll still have to put up with two weeks of people praising his service to our country and reinventing him as an honorable man a la Reagan.

46 HappyWarrior  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 2:59:51pm

re: #38 SanFranciscoZionist

The school I work at is having a giant upheaval about enforcement of the dress code.

The seniors demanded to know if I was a strict Constructionist or something. (Our US History teacher is excellent.)

I remember when uniforms were somewhat of a political issue. I think we used the issue to analyze pros and cons and how to apply that. Feels like ages ago.

47 Lidane  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:00:00pm

re: #31 Charles Johnson

Seriously. I just don't get where the agita is coming from.

Obama won the election despite the GOP trying all their usual tricks, including exploiting an attack on America as a way to paint the POTUS as a black Jimmy Carter.

That's where the agita is coming from.

48 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:00:19pm

re: #44 erik_t

No argument here

49 blueraven  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:00:44pm

re: #37 HappyWarrior

What's sad is I used to respect this guy.

Yeah, I am thinking...Lindsay will be up for re-election in 2014 and McCain despises Obama. Graham is likely to be primaried due to his moderate views in some areas. Two old friends just helping each other out.

50 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:00:51pm

re: #47 Lidane

Right.

Now I'm a racist.

51 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:00:58pm

re: #42 researchok

The attention is being focused on Rice, Obama, etc., and not on the CIA.

It is clear there was a load of confusion at the time and the CIA got caught with their pants down.

They are deflecting, I believe.

Again, I just don't understand why this is supposed to be the CIA getting "caught with their pants down."

The talking points they prepared are extremely clear that the investigation was ongoing at that point. It says explicitly, "This assessment may change."

I don't get it. What's the problem? Do you think they knew more than they were saying? Because I just don't see anything even close to being wrong here.

52 Bulworth  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:01:19pm
If so, why did none of the
dozen or so embassy attacks of the last decade result in mass upheaval and many firings?

Um, because in this attack there was a video people were mad about or something. /

53 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:01:39pm

re: #25 SanFranciscoZionist

I mean, that to me is the issue. What it is to the wingnuts is a different matter.

Agreed. The motivation/purpose for the attack to me is an academic matter. If you recall some of the reasons the 9-11 attackers gave in their martyrdom videos was a strange laundry list of everything from Israel to US assisting Muslims in Bosnia. There were other failures in Benghazi with light security and unreliable local security. It was a sad situation that shouldn't have happened.

54 jaunte  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:01:45pm

Morissey at Hot Air is questioning why Rice was selected to go out and be spokesperson on the talk shows, if there were other people who were more responsible (from the State Dept.) available. Does anyone know?

55 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:01:45pm

re: #44 erik_t

Is a horrific intelligence failure, worthy of mass upheaval and many firings, the only possible explanation for an embassy attack that killed several Americans?

If so, why did none of the dozen or so embassy attacks of the last decade result in mass upheaval and many firings?

I assume that someone screwed up something. Probably several people. The security situation does not appear to have been ideal. But that's true in almost any situation like this. The issue here is not what actually happened in Benghazi, the issue here is how to use it to destroy Barack Obama now that conventional means have failed.

56 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:02:21pm

re: #45 darthstar

Yeah, but we'll still have to put up with two weeks of people praising his service to our country and reinventing him as an honorable man a la Reagan.

McCain's not the worst. I have no problem honoring him for his public service.

57 allegro  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:02:51pm

re: #16 blueraven

So according to the FP article in this post, Rand Paul was also complaining about not enough info yet he, too, failed to attend the meeting.

the updates with their excuses?

[Link: thecable.foreignpolicy.com...]

Pathetic.

Translation: My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with facts.

58 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:03:10pm

re: #46 HappyWarrior

I remember when uniforms were somewhat of a political issue. I think we used the issue to analyze pros and cons and how to apply that. Feels like ages ago.

I said I believed the Constitution was a living document, and so was the dress code, but I was not one of the people who got to draft changes to either.

59 Bulworth  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:03:28pm

re: #51 Charles Johnson

It was all a diabolical liberal plot to discredit the military and general petreus. /

60 darthstar  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:03:31pm

I've got an earworm. And the only thing to do with an earworm is share it so others can enjoy. So here, spend the next 24 minutes with Blues for Allah.

61 erik_t  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:03:41pm

re: #48 researchok

No argument here

It's a question, not a statement. You didn't answer the question. Would you please try again?

62 Lidane  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:04:16pm

re: #50 researchok

Right.

Now I'm a racist.

I didn't say you were racist. I specifically talked about the GOP. Their agita over Benghazi is because they tried to exploit the issue to turn Barack Obama into a black Jimmy Carter. It failed and they lost.

63 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:05:18pm

re: #51 Charles Johnson

I do believe there was a failure to act- or at the very least, to make decisions.

I also believe that will come out.

The NYT, Foreign Policy and others have raise questions about the response. (see this as a reference article).

To be clear, I'm defending the administration here. The CIA has the problem- the WH and administration are only as good as the info they are given and have to work with.

64 erik_t  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:07:27pm

re: #63 researchok

The CIA has the problem- the WH and administration are only as good as the info they are given and have to work with.

I ask again: Do you think that an egregious intelligence failure is the only explanation for a successful attack on an American embassy?

65 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:08:12pm

re: #62 Lidane

As you might recall, I have great issues with GOP, to the point I did not endorse Romney.

The issue here is not the GOP claims- it is the CIA.

That the GOP moron brigade is attacking Rice and the president, as I have noted, is foolish. They are making themselves look like idiots because in attacking the administration they are missing the whole point- and problem.

66 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:08:28pm

re: #64 erik_t

I ask again: Do you think that an egregious intelligence failure is the only explanation for a successful attack on an American embassy?

No, I would say that a sequence of non-egregious fuckups is more than sufficient, as history has shown too many times. Also, sometimes diplomats are just in the wrong damn place at the wrong damn time.

67 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:08:43pm

re: #64 erik_t

Nope.
Never said or implied that.

68 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:09:13pm

re: #63 researchok

A failure to act... when?

The link you posted shows the exact opposite: Officials Detail CIA Response to Benghazi Attack - Defense - GovExec.com

Intelligence officials on Thursday offered for the first time a detailed timeline that showed officers on the ground responding within 25 minutes to the Sept. 11 attacks on the mission in Libya.

According to several news reports, including The New York Times, anonymous intelligence officials said that a rescue party of CIA officers was deployed from a secret base within Benghazi and that the agency later sent reinforcements from Tripoli to battle the attack on the mission, which ultimately killed four Americans, including the U.S. ambassador Chris Stevens.

Approximately half-a-dozen officers raced from a base from a mile away and arrived at the mission in about 25 minutes, according to The Times, and were later joined by security agents from the State Department. The officers led a search for Stevens, but his body had apparently already been taken to a local hospital. The group evacuated personnel to the CIA base, or what has been commonly referred to as the "annex."

Four hours passed, and an unarmed drone passed overhead taking what The Times describes as "reassuring" photos indicating that the worst was apparently over. But around dawn, shortly following the arrival of a group of CIA reinforcements from Tripoli, a new mortar attack was launched, which killed two CIA officers.

They responded with people on the ground within 25 minutes of the first attacks. Unless they had a time machine, it escapes me how they could possibly have acted any quicker.

69 Ben G. Hazi  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:10:31pm

re: #6 darthstar

Mitt Romney knew this, as he was given the same talking points due to his elevated status as a candidate for President.

John McCain knew this because he's on the Homeland Security committee and he was given the same documents.

Lindsey Graham knew this because John McCain talks in his sleep.

It wouldn't surprise me if one of the above three gave this information to Fox News in exchange for air time.

Heh...

70 erik_t  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:11:24pm

re: #66 SanFranciscoZionist

No, I would say that a sequence of non-egregious fuckups is more than sufficient, as history has shown too many times. Also, sometimes diplomats are just in the wrong damn place at the wrong damn time.

I reject the apparent assertion by some (not you) that anything necessarily was done badly or improperly by our folks. It may have. Hell, something probably was done badly -- perfection is very rare in any field ever.

But if the implication is that our people should be able to prevent any and all successful attacks on diplomatic facilities, I reject that. You might as well ask for zero traffic deaths, or zero plane crashes, or zero unemployment. Things to strive towards asymptotically, but not things that can be achieved.

71 erik_t  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:11:55pm

re: #67 researchok

Nope.
Never said or implied that.

Then what is the CIA problem to which you have alluded?

God, this is like pulling teeth.

72 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:12:44pm

re: #64 erik_t

I ask again: Do you think that an egregious intelligence failure is the only explanation for a successful attack on an American embassy?

I don't think so. Some attacks can't be avoided and not every attack can be detected before hand but the situation in Benghazi seems like it was very dangerous. If the State Dept or Other Government Agencies couldn't provide the security required for a visit from the ambassador a station officer should have called off the visit. This situation didn't have to happen and steps should be taken to prevent this sort of thing happening in the future.

73 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:18:02pm

re: #68 Charles Johnson

It is my understanding the failure to act began prior to events on the ground on 9/11 (there are reports the diplomats were woefully under protected) and in the manner of the response you allude to (whether or not there were enough people responding, whether they were authorized to use force, as opposed to just letting the riot play itself out in the belief it would pass when in fact it escalated).

The whole video vs coordinated attack charges are nonsense. As you noted there was no reason it could not be or was not both.

The GOP critics of the administration want to make that the issue when in fact it is not. The reason for that is clear- it highlights and encourages xenophobia.

Dealing with perceived shortcomings in policy won't incite a biased base, further blinding them.

74 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:18:42pm

re: #72 Killgore Trout

I don't think so. Some attacks can't be avoided and not every attack can be detected before hand but the situation in Benghazi seems like it was very dangerous. If the State Dept or Other Government Agencies couldn't provide the security required for a visit from the ambassador a station officer should have called off the visit. This situation didn't have to happen and steps should be taken to prevent this sort of thing happening in the future.

So I see you're fully on board with the cynical exploitation of the deaths of our diplomats for the sake of political expediency.

Shocker!

75 darthstar  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:19:10pm

Joan Walsh talking about John McCain on Politics Nation right now. "I hate to say it, but he's become so unhinged. He just takes this all so personally." Said with the proper amount of pity in her voice.

76 allegro  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:19:41pm

re: #72 Killgore T

I don't think so. Some attacks can't be avoided and not every attack can be detected before hand but the situation in Benghazi seems like it was very dangerous. If the State Dept or Other Government Agencies could provide the security required for a visit from the ambassador a station officer should have called off the visit. This situation didn't have to happen and steps should be taken to prevent this sort of thing happening in the future.

Stephens was the Libyan ambassador and therefore presumably knowledgeable about conditions in Benghazi at the time of his visit. Did he request additional security to what, again presumably, he knew was already in place?

77 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:21:46pm

re: #75 darthstar

Joan Walsh talking about John McCain on Politics Nation right now. "I hate to say it, but he's become so unhinged. He just takes this all so personally." Said with the proper amount of pity in her voice.

McCain has long been willing to cynically exploit these situations. He tried to exploit Iraq in the 2008 election.

The weird thing about McCain is that he does this shit but then also sometimes does things that show some integrity. But I don't think there's some trend there. He's always done this kind of crap.

78 darthstar  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:22:21pm

Never mind...twitter pic didn't post

79 darthstar  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:23:33pm

re: #77 Talking Point Detective

McCain has long been willing to cynically exploit these situations. He tried to exploit Iraq in the 2008 election.

The weird thing about McCain is that he does this shit but then also sometimes does things that show some integrity. But I don't think there's some trend there. He's always done this kind of crap.

He feigns integrity when he thinks he can benefit from it. And he has the Hanoi Hilton card he can play when he wants sympathy points.

80 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:23:54pm

re: #74 Talking Point Detective

You may not like me telling you this - but it is exactly what you are doing. If there are lessons to learn going forward, so be it. But this is a case of the obvious - you can't always anticipate everything and bad shit will happen. Trying to draw some general implications about "failure" from that is libertarian-style binary government-hating. Nothing more.

81 gwangung  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:23:59pm

re: #76 allegro

Stephens was the Libyan ambassador and therefore presumably knowledgeable about conditions in Benghazi at the time of his visit. Did he request additional security to what, again presumably, he knew was already in place?

I'm presuming that he also has discretion on whether to take trips or not, and made the judgement that the risks, based on what he knew, did not outweigh the gains.

Moreover, it seems to me that it's also pertinent to determine if the attack was at all preventable. If it was an action of opportunity from a previously organized, discrete group, I'm not sure it could have been prevented.

82 gwangung  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:24:36pm

re: #80 Talking Point Detective

You may not like me telling you this - but it is exactly what you are doing. If there are lessons to learn going forward, so be it. But this is a case of the obvious - you can't always anticipate everything and bad shit will happen. Trying to draw some general implications about "failure" from that is libertarian-style binary government-hating. Nothing more.

This is probably a better way of putting it.

83 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:25:03pm

re: #79 darthstar

He feigns integrity when he thinks he can benefit from it. And he has the Hanoi Hilton card he can play when he wants sympathy points.

The funny thing is that sometimes I've thought his demonstrations of integrity were honest - not always calculated for political advantage, and sometimes actually politically damaging.

84 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:25:06pm

re: #76 allegro

Stephens was the Libyan ambassador and therefore presumably knowledgeable about conditions in Benghazi at the time of his visit. Did he request additional security to what, again presumably, he knew was already in place?

Documents Back Up Claims of Requests for Greater Security in Benghazi

Yes, they were concerned about the lack of security. Without the required security the trip should have been called off.

85 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:25:13pm

re: #20 SanFranciscoZionist

'Inspired by' does not mean 'spontaneously happened because of'. That's the issue.

Yeah, all 50+ places around the world were fakes, up in arms only to provide plausible cover for a pre-planned raid on Benghazi. Those 19 dudes who died in Pakistan were plants.

Fucking ridiculous.

86 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:25:29pm

re: #76 allegro

Stephens was the Libyan ambassador and therefore presumably knowledgeable about conditions in Benghazi at the time of his visit. Did he request additional security to what, again presumably, he knew was already in place?

That is a very good question.

I suspect we'll eventually find out.

87 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:25:47pm

re: #82 gwangung

This is probably a better way of putting it.

True. The polemics were unnecessary.

88 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:27:04pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

Were the requests for more security general in nature of did they reflect a particular concern?

89 gwangung  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:27:59pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

Documents Back Up Claims of Requests for Greater Security in Benghazi

Yes, they were concerned about the lack of security. Without the required security the trip should have been called off.

I'd be more convinced if other professionals (aside from us keyboard pounders) also said that.

90 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:28:03pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

Documents Back Up Claims of Requests for Greater Security in Benghazi

Yes, they were concerned about the lack of security. Without the required security the trip should have been called off.

Our people in hot spots take calculated risks--they do it all the time, and it usually works. This time it didn't.

91 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:28:43pm

re: #20 SanFranciscoZionist

'Inspired by' does not mean 'spontaneously happened because of'. That's the issue.

You put "spontaneously happened because of" in semi-quotation marks. Honest question - did any officials actually use that wording?

92 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:30:02pm

re: #88 researchok

Were the requests for more security general in nature of did they reflect a particular concern?

Looks like a bit of both. There are some specific incidents and concerns cited along with general more vague references to the situation in general at the consulate.

93 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:31:15pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

Documents Back Up Claims of Requests for Greater Security in Benghazi

Yes, they were concerned about the lack of security. Without the required security the trip should have been called off.

So what is your point? That no one evaluated those requests due to incompetence?

Or that you know what the rationale was to not comply with those requests, and on that basis find some particular incompetence reflected in the analysis done?

Could you provide your information in those regards?

94 darthstar  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:31:34pm

The Hitler learns Obama won video is over at daily kos...

[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

It's pretty funny. The best part is where he says, "If anyone here voted for Obama, leave the room." and all but three of his officers walk out.

95 darthstar  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:32:23pm

Fuckin' twitter.

96 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:33:00pm

re: #92 Killgore Trout

OK, another question:

I know the State Department has 3 categories of diplomatic employees- the diplomats, clerical/admin staff and property management types.

Do you know how the request for more security would have been made and the type of channels used?

Does it make a difference?

97 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:33:18pm

re: #95 darthstar

LOL

98 darthstar  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:33:42pm

re: #97 researchok

LOL

Yeah, that's twice in a row tweets didn't paste.

99 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:34:10pm

re: #92 Killgore Trout

Looks like a bit of both. There are some specific incidents and concerns cited along with general more vague references to the situation in general at the consulate.

Yes. I see you are very "concerned."

Sorry - the point made by guangung that it is better to be less judgmental was a good one, but I really don't see any other way to explain the basis of your argument than concern-trolling. Certainly, we have seen an abundance of concern-trolling from Republicans on this issue, and you seem to be falling right in line.

100 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:34:19pm

re: #98 darthstar

I admire your economy of words even on Twitter

101 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:37:43pm

I'm just baffled. How fucking credulous does a person have to be towards wingnut logic to think that those 50 + protests were somehow preplanned and that the stated reason for them, a US made anti-Muhammed film was just a pretextual excuse?

102 allegro  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:38:46pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

Documents Back Up Claims of Requests for Greater Security in Benghazi

Yes, they were concerned about the lack of security. Without the required security the trip should have been called off.

Clearly Stevens was well aware of conditions as reflected in the article. I doubt he was at all suicidal so therefore felt his visit should go ahead. Who should have called it off if not he, who it would seem was in the best position to make that call?

I note a particular sentence:

Stevens describes the incidents as “organized, but this is not an organized campaign.”

If not an organized campaign, how would intelligence have been aware of any previously organized attack on that date at that location?

103 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:39:30pm

re: #101 goddamnedfrank

I'm just baffled. How fucking credulous does a person have to be towards wingnut logic to think that those 50 + protests were somehow preplanned and that the stated reason for them, a US made anti-Muhammed film was just a pretextual excuse?

I think that you are giving this wingnuttery too much credit. You are assuming people actually believe this shit. I don't think that's the case. I think it is concern-trolling, pure and simple (at least in the majority of cases). This is about ODS.

104 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:39:55pm

Still not getting it.

Yes, of course there needs to be an examination of what happened, and if there were mistakes made then policies need to be adjusted. Just as with any other incident of this kind.

Why is there supposed to be some kind of special secret ass-covering going on with Benghazi? I don't see it. I see everyone involved acting as responsibly as possible in a bad situation. What am I missing?

105 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:41:36pm

re: #96 researchok

OK, another question:

I know the State Department has 3 categories of diplomatic employees- the diplomats, clerical/admin staff and property management types.

Do you know how the request for more security would have been made and the type of channels used?

Does it make a difference?

It seems most of the requests weren't granted for whatever reason. With that being the case someone at the station in Libya should have cancelled the trip. I'm not sure if that decision would fall on the ambassador or the station chief but the decision making should be reviewed. Without enough adequate security a high value target like the ambassador should not have traveled to a city as dangerous as Benghazi. Somebody should have called it off.

106 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:41:45pm

re: #104 Charles Johnson

Why is there supposed to be some kind of special secret ass-covering going on with Benghazi?

Only because it's the CIA. Their reputation and track record precede them.

As to the rest, I don't disagree.

107 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:42:00pm

re: #104 Charles Johnson

Still not getting it.

Yes, of course there needs to be an examination of what happened, and if there were mistakes made then policies need to be adjusted. Just as with any other incident of this kind.

Why is there supposed to be some kind of special secret ass-covering going on with Benghazi? I don't see it. I see everyone involved acting as responsibly as possible in a bad situation. What am I missing?

I think it was sekrit-assed covering up, personally.

108 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:42:38pm

re: #101 goddamnedfrank

I mean it's not like large Muslim communities have a history of protesting over insults to their prophet, of adopting a gravely serious attitude towards that shit.

It's not like they said that's exactly what was pissing them off at that moment.

No, no, no. Let's leave open the idea that it was all just a fucking ruse.

109 EPR-radar  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:43:36pm

re: #104 Charles Johnson

Still not getting it.

Yes, of course there needs to be an examination of what happened, and if there were mistakes made then policies need to be adjusted. Just as with any other incident of this kind.

Why is there supposed to be some kind of special secret ass-covering going on with Benghazi? I don't see it. I see everyone involved acting as responsibly as possible in a bad situation. What am I missing?

This was supposed to be Obama's hostage crisis, and hand the White House to the Republicans for at least the next 12 years. The dream dies hard.

110 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:44:41pm

re: #105 Killgore Trout

It seems most of the requests weren't granted for whatever reason. With that being the case someone at the station in Libya should have cancelled the trip. I'm not sure if that decision would fall on the ambassador or the station chief but the decision making should be reviewed. Without enough adequate security a high value target like the ambassador should not have traveled to a city as dangerous as Benghazi. Somebody should have called it off.

20/20 hindsight. So you have evaluated the relevant information, and based on your in-depth knowledge and your expertise in security and intelligence decision-making, determined what "should" have been decided?

Yes, someone should have called it off, because something bad wouldn't have happened if they had.

And someone should have detained the 9/11 hijackers. And someone should have detained the Columbine kids. Etc.

111 gwangung  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:44:55pm

re: #105 Killgore Trout

It seems most of the requests weren't granted for whatever reason. With that being the case someone at the station in Libya should have cancelled the trip. I'm not sure if that decision would fall on the ambassador or the station chief but the decision making should be reviewed. Without enough adequate security a high value target like the ambassador should not have traveled to a city as dangerous as Benghazi. Somebody should have called it off.

This sounds more like 20/20 hindsight, as opposed to what might be useful in the future.

112 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:45:47pm

If Obama had taken my advice and built Voltron this never would have happened.

113 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:46:11pm

re: #109 EPR-radar

This was supposed to be Obama's hostage crisis, and hand the White House to the Republicans for at least the next 12 years. The dream dies hard.

Bingo.

114 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:47:26pm

What Benghazi Is About: Scandal Envy

So what's going on here? I can sum it up in two words: scandal envy. Republicans are indescribably frustrated by the fact that Barack Obama, whom they regard as both illegitimate and corrupt, went through an entire term without a major scandal. They tried with "Fast and Furious," but that turned out to be small potatoes. They tried with Solyndra, but that didn't produce the criminality they hoped for either. Obama even managed to dole out three-quarters of a trillion dollars in stimulus money without any graft or double-dealing to be found. Nixon had Watergate, Reagan had Iran-Contra, Clinton had Lewinsky, and Barack Obama has gotten off scott-free. This is making them absolutely livid, and they're going to keep trying to gin up a scandal, even if there's no there there. Benghazi may not be an actual scandal, but it's all they have handy.

115 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:49:07pm

re: #110 Talking Point Detective

Since you seem intent of being a rude asshole about my opinion I'll tell you that my father died serving on a State Dept security detail overseas when I was 14. His name is carved in stone on the memorial in the State Dept lobby in DC. I have personal opinions that your rudeness won't change.

116 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:49:16pm

re: #99 Talking Point Detective

Downding all you want.

Just calling a spade a spade. When you provide the details you used to decide what "should" have been done, I'll apologize.

Republicans have been concern-trolling this issue from the Jump. The CNN clip on McCain is all the proof needed. You are falling right in line.

117 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:50:45pm

re: #115 Killgore Trout

Since you seem intent of being a rude asshole about my opinion I'll tell you that my father died serving on a State Dept security detail overseas when I was 14. His name is carved in stone on the memorial in the State Dept lobby in DC. I have personal opinions that your rudeness won't change.

I'm sorry for your father's death. It doesn't justify concern-trolling. In fact, I'd say just the opposite. You should take this kind of exploitation seriously. I'm not trying to change your opinions. I'm calling you on concern-trolling. Your father's death has no direct relevance to the facts of this case.

118 Kragar  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:53:10pm

Oh, Bryan, this is what you're reduced to?

Fischer: Obama Committed The Sin Of Lust, Greed, and Covetousness On National Television

119 Inconsequential Consequence  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:55:00pm

"Politically charged overblown minor talking point"

"Frustrated technical response"

"Huh?"

120 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:55:44pm

re: #118 Kragar

Oh, Bryan, this is what you're reduced to?

Fischer: Obama Committed The Sin Of Lust, Greed, and Covetousness On National Television

[Embedded content]

That's not the 10th Commandment of the largest Christian denomination.

121 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:56:15pm

re: #74 Talking Point Detective

So I see you're fully on board with the cynical exploitation of the deaths of our diplomats for the sake of political expediency.

Shocker!

It seems to me that in the rush to avoid that exploitation, people are going overboard insisting that nothing could possibly have gone wrong, it couldn't have been planned by anyone, just something that happened to happen...

When something like this happens, I want to know why, and hear about how we're going to avoid another occurrence. I don't want to impeach the president, I'm not crazy, and I'm not happy this happened. But I do want to clearly understand what went down.

122 Inconsequential Consequence  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:56:20pm

re: #118 Kragar

Oh, Bryan, this is what you're reduced to?

Fischer: Obama Committed The Sin Of Lust, Greed, and Covetousness On National Television

[Embedded content]

Fischer and Reality refuse to be in the same room together.

123 engineer cat  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:56:38pm

re: #118 Kragar

Oh, Bryan, this is what you're reduced to?

Fischer: Obama Committed The Sin Of Lust, Greed, and Covetousness On National Television

[Embedded content]

while simultaneously juggling 16 plates and reciting the gettysburg address

124 Kragar  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:56:41pm

re: #120 Decatur Deb

That's not the 10th Commandment of the largest Christian denomination.

"Though shalt not lust after a Democrat winning the Presidency."

125 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:57:23pm

re: #117 Talking Point Detective

I'm sorry for your father's death. It doesn't justify concern-trolling.

fuck you.

126 allegro  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:57:49pm

re: #118 Kragar

Oh, Bryan, this is what you're reduced to?

Fischer: Obama Committed The Sin Of Lust, Greed, and Covetousness On National Television

[Embedded content]

I will never get this. By all accounts, Barack and Michelle Obama have lived exemplary lives, working hard for their educations, their communities, and their families. They have served our country in a way to make us proud and represent the best of what the United States is and has to offer.

This vitriol is astounding to me, from whatever the source.

127 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:58:43pm

re: #121 SanFranciscoZionist

It seems to me that in the rush to avoid that exploitation, people are going overboard insisting that nothing could possibly have gone wrong, it couldn't have been planned by anyone, just something that happened to happen...

When something like this happens, I want to know why, and hear about how we're going to avoid another occurrence. I don't want to impeach the president, I'm not crazy, and I'm not happy this happened. But I do want to clearly understand what went down.

If that were the case, then I would fully agree. I don't see that happening. It is clear that something went wrong. If the administration or other officials tried to cover something up, or failed to do due diligence investigation, they should be called to account.

What do you see that amounts to people saying that nothing could possibly have gone wrong?

128 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:59:08pm

re: #118 Kragar

I can say with professional certainty the guy is nuts.

As is often noted, any psychopathy left untreated will escalate.

This guy is in orbit

129 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 3:59:30pm

re: #121 SanFranciscoZionist

..snip. I don't want to impeach the president, I'm not crazy, and I'm not happy this happened. But I do want to clearly understand what went down.

You won't. Not for the many years it takes to declassify it. If you do, someone has really screwed up their job.

130 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:00:27pm

re: #129 Decatur Deb

You won't. Not for the many years it takes to declassify it. If you do, someone has really screwed up their job.

Lots of truth to that

131 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:00:30pm

re: #85 goddamnedfrank

Yeah, all 50+ places around the world were fakes, up in arms only to provide plausible cover for a pre-planned raid on Benghazi. Those 19 dudes who died in Pakistan were plants.

Fucking ridiculous.

Jesus Fucking Christ. I give up. Clearly, if something was trending and creating protest, it cannot possibly have been manipulated by anyone for any political plan or purpose beyond spontaneous anger about the video. That sort of deep thinking isn't possible in Libya or something.

132 Political Atheist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:00:56pm

re: #121 SanFranciscoZionist
re: #104 Charles Johnson

The only healthy approach to this is like the NTSB and FAA after a plane crash with a highly expert crew that passes all the after crash blood tests. Hindsight is all they have after a crash. Weather? Training? Mechanical? Pilot error? What can we learn?

Given the politics, all I feel is nausea at the approach we are actually getting. The right? Going nuts. The left? Circle the wagons to defend themselves from the insane accusations.

This might not sort out for months.

133 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:02:30pm

re: #91 Talking Point Detective

You put "spontaneously happened because of" in semi-quotation marks. Honest question - did any officials actually use that wording?

Not that I know of. I certainly do hope not.

However, given that any suggestion I or my fellow lunatics make that there could have been pre-planning or any organizational activity connected with this is dismissed with scorn and anger, I don't know what else to think people (not officials) think happened.

134 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:03:18pm

re: #94 darthstar

The Hitler learns Obama won video is over at daily kos...

[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

It's pretty funny. The best part is where he says, "If anyone here voted for Obama, leave the room." and all but three of his officers walk out.

I have to say, I don't like using the Downfall videos for current politics. It's just not funny by me.

135 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:03:55pm

re: #125 Killgore Trout

fuck you.

I really am sorry for your father's death. But what I see you doing is exploiting this issue. I have seen you similarly concern-troll other issues as well. I don't see any reason why I should extend you carte blanche because of the tragedy of your father's death. I see this as a similar situation to people whose family members died in 2011 saying that granted them some viability in opposing the ex-Burlington Coat Factory Cultural Center two blocks from ground zero.

I get why you're pissed at me. I am not saying that you are exploiting your father's death. But I am not diminishing your father's death. The fact that your father died does not change the facts of this case, or the fact that you are passing judgement without having the information needed. In the end, that is more harmful than waiting to have the evidence and judging accordingly. Provide the information you are using to make your assessment and make your case. If your case adds up, I will be more than happy to apologize.

136 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:04:05pm

re: #133 SanFranciscoZionist

This is why I read more, comment less.

137 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:04:17pm

re: #108 goddamnedfrank

I mean it's not like large Muslim communities have a history of protesting over insults to their prophet, of adopting a gravely serious attitude towards that shit.

It's not like they said that's exactly what was pissing them off at that moment.

No, no, no. Let's leave open the idea that it was all just a fucking ruse.

You think that can't be used by people who are more organized than a bunch of irate protesters? Why?

138 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:05:22pm

re: #136 researchok

It's become a zero sum game.

139 Bubblehead II  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:05:58pm

re: #121 SanFranciscoZionist

It seems to me that in the rush to avoid that exploitation, people are going overboard insisting that nothing could possibly have gone wrong, it couldn't have been planned by anyone, just something that happened to happen...

When something like this happens, I want to know why, and hear about how we're going to avoid another occurrence. I don't want to impeach the president, I'm not crazy, and I'm not happy this happened. But I do want to clearly understand what went down.

This. Mistakes were made. Determine what they were and fix them so something like this doesn't happen again.

140 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:06:00pm

re: #127 Talking Point Detective

If that were the case, then I would fully agree. I don't see that happening. It is clear that something went wrong. If the administration or other officials tried to cover something up, or failed to do due diligence investigation, they should be called to account.

What do you see that amounts to people saying that nothing could possibly have gone wrong?

Well, people seem a little tetchy on this thread about the idea that something went wrong.

141 lostlakehiker  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:06:16pm

CBS reported tonight, again, that there had been no demonstration in front of the Benghazi consulate before the attack.

I came away from what Rice said under the impression that there had been.

Everyone `in the loop' knew better by Sunday.

142 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:06:31pm

re: #129 Decatur Deb

You won't. Not for the many years it takes to declassify it. If you do, someone has really screwed up their job.

'Tis assuredly true. So I go on meandering through the news articles, trying to piece things together...

143 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:08:33pm

re: #133 SanFranciscoZionist

Not that I know of. I certainly do hope not.

However, given that any suggestion I or my fellow lunatics make that there could have been pre-planning or any organizational activity connected with this is dismissed with scorn and anger, I don't know what else to think people (not officials) think happened.

As I understand it, once the relevant information came in, no one said that there was no element of planning or organization. Again, if someone said something along those lines before the information came in, then it was an error but an understandable one - as long as they were basing their analysis on known facts. If they were making shit up, or covering something up, then criticism is certainly justified.

If you have evidence of that, then I would like to see it.

144 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:08:35pm

re: #142 SanFranciscoZionist

'Tis assuredly true. So I go on meandering through the news articles, trying to piece things together...

A fairly innocent hobby. The conclusions you reach will be a self-portrait.

145 John Q  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:09:44pm

Well, if there is a committee formed to investigate security at the Benghazi consulate, I hope it pays a lot of attention to the cuts congress made in the funding requested by State for embassy and consulate security.

146 Inconsequential Consequence  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:10:07pm

re: #140 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, people seem a little tetchy on this thread about the idea that something went wrong.

I think the tetchiness is about the right's insistence that it's all about a cover up of serious and damning screw ups.

The possibility that it was planned, or an opportunistic attack based on what happened in Egypt is well within the envelope.

147 allegro  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:10:33pm

re: #137 SanFranciscoZionist

You think that can't be used by people who are more organized than a bunch of irate protesters? Why?

I can easily see the video protests being used opportunistically by those who had violent intent. I'm not a military type, but I don't see what happened there as being something that would have required weeks of planning - more like a few hours of getting the players together who already had the weaponry. That they would have those tools already isn't a stretch considering what has been going down in Libya for some time.

I haven't seen anyone dispute that this is a plausible scenario.

148 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:11:25pm

re: #140 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, people seem a little tetchy on this thread about the idea that something went wrong.

I think people are reacting to bullshit like that we see in the clip from McCain. As I said, Republicans have been concern-trolling this from the jump - from the initial Romney comment about Obama apologizing for terrorism, or whatever the fuck he said.

I think we should give people the benefit of the doubt, and that if we have evidence of incompetence or indifference to a dangerous situation (lack of due diligence in threat-evaluation), people will expect accountability.

149 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:11:37pm

re: #143 Talking Point Detective

The event took place on 9/11.

There is reason to suggest (understandably) other diplomatic missions were made aware the date might be exploited.

150 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:12:39pm

re: #121 SanFranciscoZionist

It seems to me that in the rush to avoid that exploitation, people are going overboard insisting that nothing could possibly have gone wrong, it couldn't have been planned by anyone, just something that happened to happen...

When something like this happens, I want to know why, and hear about how we're going to avoid another occurrence. I don't want to impeach the president, I'm not crazy, and I'm not happy this happened. But I do want to clearly understand what went down.

The thing about a successful violent revolution is that in the aftermath there's a lot of small arms in the possession of civilians. This was especially true of Libya, and compounded by chaotic law enforcement. Shit, once it touched off in Benghazi was pretty much destined to jump up a notch. Automatic weapons and RPGs were ubiquitous and there was little in the way of a functioning Libyan security apparatus to put it down once it started. The widespread nature of the protests around the globe should serve as an indicator as to how inflammatory the anti-Muhammed video was considered.

To pretend, as you have above, that the repeatedly stated reason for the 50+ protests around the world doesn't necessarily mean that they "spontaneously happened because of" that reason is to buy into the idea that it was potentially all just a ruse.

151 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:12:39pm

re: #143 Talking Point Detective

As I understand it, once the relevant information came in, no one said that there was no element of planning or organization. Again, if someone said something along those lines before the information came in, they it was an error but an understandable one - as long as they were basing their analysis on known facts. If they were making shit up, or covering something up, then criticism is certainly justified.

If you have evidence of that, then I would like to see it.

You really don't get it, do you? I am not attacking anything that the administration has done, or anyone in it. I am saying that I believe there was planning and organization, and that there was motivation to do that beyond simple anger at the bloody video.

I may be wrong. It's possible that this simply started to get forwarded from laptop to laptop in Benghazi, and the crowd formed. That's not what I expect to be the final analysis, but it could be the case. Who the hell am I to know?

Now, if I'm completely off, and no one minds my saying that, lovely, but people are getting sort of worked up here.

152 Joanne  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:13:42pm

re: #118 Kragar

OFFS.

Shorter Asshole: I don't like what that boy said so ima gonna find sumthing to complain about. The bible says....

Meh.

153 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:13:50pm

re: #146 b_Snark

I think the tetchiness is about the right's insistence that it's all about a cover up of serious and damning screw ups.

The possibility that it was planned, or an opportunistic attack based on what happened in Egypt is well within the envelope.

Well yeah, that is what the tetchiness is about. But that shouldn't close doors to trying to figure out what the hell happened.

154 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:14:17pm

re: #149 researchok

The event took place on 9/11.

There is reason to suggest (understandably) other diplomatic missions were made aware the date might be exploited.

Yes. No doubt. But you still need to have evidence of incompetence. It is very easy to reverse engineer and assume incompetence. But that is useless if you don't have the information to ground your argument. This is about having the appropriate investigation done. Finger-pointing is just counterproductive towards that goal.

155 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:14:39pm

re: #133 SanFranciscoZionist

The thing is, there always could be. In any attack on an embassy, or in an attack on a military outpost, or anything like that. And while I am interested in the subject, I don't feel like I have to know what went wrong on the occasions where we don't succeed, mostly honestly because I doubt i'd understand it. I don't know what went wrong in Fallujah that made it such a nightmare of a combat. I don't know what went wrong in any of the attacks on our embassies in the past. I assume that we learn from the lessons. Unless this is a case where there's some reason to believe that the security was egregiously lax in some way that needs daylight in order to protect people at State in future, I don't see what having it explained to me in detail will really do. I think that the people at State are pretty hardwired into this whole political deal, and that there's no chance of this attack not being analyzed and taken seriously.

An armed bunch of fanatics attacked our guys and killed the ambassador indirectly by setting fire to the place after they'd retreated into the safe room. This doesn't seem like some massively precise assassination, but a reminder that Islamic fundamentalists do still have the means and motive to attack us and do us real damage. I think what Frank is rather inartfully expressing is that after years of examples of radical Muslim fanatics actually becoming lethal over symbolic things like the movie, the idea that the movie inspired the organized raid is being treated like it's some naive thing that Obama is using weakly to cover up the real truth which is ???

You're definitely not doing that, that' snot what I'm saying, but that's one of the key communication breakdowns, that the idea that the movie inspired the militia is being dismissed as somehow naive despite how often things like this have inspired radical Muslims to attack in the past.

Since I took my time with this post it's now probably totally behind the times. Ah well.

156 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:14:55pm

re: #153 SanFranciscoZionist

Exactly.

This has nothing to do with the GOP stupid.

157 Inconsequential Consequence  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:16:18pm

re: #153 SanFranciscoZionist

Well yeah, that is what the tetchiness is about. But that shouldn't close doors to trying to figure out what the hell happened.

I think most people here are willing to peek around that door but don't support going in with guns blazing.

158 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:16:32pm

re: #151 SanFranciscoZionist

You really don't get it, do you? I am not attacking anything that the administration has done, or anyone in it. I am saying that I believe there was planning and organization, and that there was motivation to do that beyond simple anger at the bloody video.

I may be wrong. It's possible that this simply started to get forwarded from laptop to laptop in Benghazi, and the crowd formed. That's not what I expect to be the final analysis, but it could be the case. Who the hell am I to know?

Now, if I'm completely off, and no one minds my saying that, lovely, but people are getting sort of worked up here.

But I don't see anyone getting upset about the suggestion that there might have been some planning or organizing, or rejecting evidence of such. I see people objecting to the way that any potential planning or organizing has been used as a cudgel against the Obama administration. I see people objecting to conclusions being drawn without sufficient information.

I am not saying that you are doing that. I have not seen you do that.

159 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:16:45pm

re: #137 SanFranciscoZionist

You think that can't be used by people who are more organized than a bunch of irate protesters? Why?

Occams razor. Libyan society was awash in small arms and piss poor law enforcement. The Benghazi protest may very well have been exploited as cover for the attack. That however is way different than asserting, as you did above, that the fifty plus protests around the world might not have been spontaneous reactions to the very thing they were all ostensibly protesting. That strains all credulity.

160 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:18:13pm

re: #150 goddamnedfrank

To pretend, as you have above, that the repeatedly stated reason for the 50+ protests around the world doesn't necessarily mean that they "spontaneously happened because of" that reason is to buy into the idea that it was potentially all just a ruse.

I don't think that's even vaguely what I'm saying. Why is it so important for you to pretend that public outrage can't be used by political actors for their own purposes?

161 Achilles Tang  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:18:48pm

McCain doesn't seem to be the same man he was just a few years ago. Among Republicans I used to admire him the most. I just don't get it.

162 Kragar  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:18:56pm

Former Navy Chaplain Says Marriage Equality Wins a Sign of the End Times, Americans Turning to Satan: VIDEO

"I think this confirms something that Jesus said - that broad is the road that leads to destruction and many enter into it. But narrow is the road that leads to eternal life and only a few find it. So I wouldn't be surprised if most people in America voted against God and against God's values if that wasn't a confirmation of something that Jesus predicted would come in the End Times, that there would be a massive rebellion against God, that people would turn to Satan, that people would have all kinds of sin and embrace sin as the law of the land. I'm not surprised that this is happening eventually. I'm just saddened that it's happening so soon to America."

163 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:20:31pm

re: #154 Talking Point Detective

No argument here.

All I want to see is sunlight on the matter.

This is not Obama, Rice or the administration.

Nor does it have to do with the GOP (see my remarks here)

Lives were lost, we need to know why, we need to understand the safety protocols (maybe they are outdated or just plain inadequate) and questions need to be answered under oath. While CIA press releases are nice, they don't have a great track record when it comes to accuracy.

164 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:20:53pm

re: #160 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't think that's even vaguely what I'm saying. Why is it so important for you to pretend that public outrage can't be used by political actors for their own purposes?

Well, this is the thing for me: The militia claimed they attacked because of the movie and that tends to be the sort of thing that they do, right? So doesn't their purpose including attacking the US embassy over stuff like this movie? Do they have another raison d'etre that's supported by the attack on the embassy, that the attack serves as plausible deniability for or something?

I'm really honestly asking, this is the bit I don't get: If the point of this militia isn't to try to enforce their idea of Islamic law, including attacking the US for 'allowing' a movie that attacks Islam, what is their purpose?

165 Inconsequential Consequence  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:21:05pm

re: #162 Kragar

Former Navy Chaplain Says Marriage Equality Wins a Sign of the End Times, Americans Turning to Satan: VIDEO

He'll be standing on a corner in the near future holding a big, dirty, hand drawn sign proclaiming the end is nigh.

166 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:21:47pm

re: #157 b_Snark

I think most people here are willing to peek around that door but don't support going in with guns blazing.

I assume it's being looked into. I'm curious to know more, but as Deb said, the whole truth will probably never be available to the likes of me.

167 EPR-radar  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:22:03pm

re: #156 researchok

Exactly.

This has nothing to do with the GOP stupid.

In an intensely polarized situation, it is easy to view asking legitimate questions as a form of "just asking questions" trolling.

Can we agree that:

1) We don't know all the facts.

2) The video is likely to have some level of relevance.

3) It is likely this was a planned attack by militants (as opposed to being exclusively an unplanned mob response to the video).

4) GOP attempts to make this into a scandal for the Obama administration are profoundly unhelpful.

168 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:22:43pm

re: #162 Kragar

I prophesize an early discharge.

169 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:23:15pm

re: #167 EPR-radar

No argument here.

170 allegro  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:23:22pm
171 Inconsequential Consequence  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:23:33pm

re: #168 researchok

I prophesize an early discharge.

That's what she said.

172 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:23:41pm

re: #163 researchok

No argument here.

All I want to see is sunlight on the matter.

This is not Obama, Rice or the administration.

Nor does it have to do with the GOP (see my remarks here)

Lives were lost, we need to know why, we need to understand the safety protocols (maybe they are outdated or just plain inadequate) and questions need to be answered under oath. While CIA press releases are nice, they don't have a great track record when it comes to accuracy.

Excellent comment, IMO.

173 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:23:52pm

re: #163 researchok

No argument here.

All I want to see is sunlight on the matter.

This is not Obama, Rice or the administration.

Nor does it have to do with the GOP (see my remarks here)

Lives were lost, we need to know why, we need to understand the safety protocols (maybe they are outdated or just plain inadequate) and questions need to be answered under oath. While CIA press releases are nice, they don't have a great track record when it comes to accuracy.

There are certain politicians (Rand Paul for one) who want this all aired in front of TV cameras. That's moronic posturing. There's only so much sunlight that we are privy to.

174 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:23:54pm

re: #159 goddamnedfrank

Occams razor. Libyan society was awash in small arms and piss poor law enforcement. The Benghazi protest may very well have been exploited as cover for the attack. That however is way different than asserting, as you did above, that the fifty plus protests around the world might not have been spontaneous reactions to the very thing they were all ostensibly protesting. That strains all credulity.

I didn't assert that, that I'm aware of. If my words could be interpreted in that light, let me correct them.

I said that I think that public anger about the videos may well have been manipulated, in Benghazi and possibly in other places, by more organized people with political motivations and agendas beyond simple religious anger. The wingnuts know how to do it, and so do a lot of other people.

175 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:24:02pm

re: #167 EPR-radar

3) It is likely this was a planned attack by militants (as opposed to being exclusively an unplanned mob response to the video).

It may very well have been both

176 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:24:29pm

re: #163 researchok

No argument here.

All I want to see is sunlight on the matter.

This is not Obama, Rice or the administration.

Nor does it have to do with the GOP (see my remarks here)

Lives were lost, we need to know why, we need to understand the safety protocols (maybe they are outdated or just plain inadequate) and questions need to be answered under oath. While CIA press releases are nice, they don't have a great track record when it comes to accuracy.

We don't need to know why. The people responsible for corrective action need to know why, and they will make corrections that won't quite work the next, different, time.

In twenty years a history grad student will include the correct assessment in a footnote. No one but his advisor will give a shit.

177 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:25:07pm

re: #173 wrenchwench

I absolutely agree

National security matters must never be entirely transparent.

178 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:25:14pm

re: #164 Obdicut

Well, this is the thing for me: The militia claimed they attacked because of the movie and that tends to be the sort of thing that they do, right? So doesn't their purpose including attacking the US embassy over stuff like this movie? Do they have another raison d'etre that's supported by the attack on the embassy, that the attack serves as plausible deniability for or something?

I'm really honestly asking, this is the bit I don't get: If the point of this militia isn't to try to enforce their idea of Islamic law, including attacking the US for 'allowing' a movie that attacks Islam, what is their purpose?

That's their purpose, sure. The only thing I'm saying here is that I think that there may have been a plan in place before the video provided a means to spark a larger action.

179 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:25:43pm

re: #176 Decatur Deb

We don't need to know why. The people responsible for corrective action need to know why, and they will make corrections that won't quite work the next, different, time.

In twenty years a history grad student will include the correct assessment in a footnote. No one but his advisor will give a shit.

Well said.

180 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:26:03pm

re: #167 EPR-radar

3) It is likely this was a planned attack by militants (as opposed to being exclusively an unplanned mob response to the video).

I'll agree with all your points, but 3. seems to be a sticking place at the moment.

181 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:26:04pm

re: #160 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't think that's even vaguely what I'm saying.

That's exactly what you said here

re: #20 SanFranciscoZionist

'Inspired by' does not mean 'spontaneously happened because of'. That's the issue.

I was clearly talking about the worldwide protests and what inspired them. You chose to cast doubt on that being the real cause. Of what, I don't know.

Why is it so important for you to pretend that public outrage can't be used by political actors for their own purposes?

That's not was I said. I'm saying that to dismiss the real, stated reason for the protests as not actually spontaneously causing them plays into the wingnut logic that there was no protest. The attack and the protests may have been separate with the protest used as cover, or the attack may have come as an organic escalation in an society with a ridiculous amount of small arms and a recent history of using them to effect. The protests however, were about exactly what the people protesting said they were about.

182 Achilles Tang  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:26:56pm

re: #154 Talking Point Detective

Yes. No doubt. But you still need to have evidence of incompetence. It is very easy to reverse engineer and assume incompetence. But that is useless if you don't have the information to ground your argument. This is about having the appropriate investigation done. Finger-pointing is just counterproductive towards that goal.

I don't wish disrespect on the dead, but the bottom line seems to me to be that the person first responsible, and most competent, for security preparations, including where one placed oneself and others on a day like 9/11, in a wild west like Libya, was the ambassador himself who was highly experienced.

Certainly we need to know if his own plans and requests were somehow thwarted by anyone in the administration, but he was in command on the ground and were he alive that is where the buck would have stopped.

183 dragonath  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:28:49pm

re: #156 researchok

Exactly.

This has nothing to do with the GOP stupid.

It has nothing and everything to do with it.

This is what happens when the political process is broken.

184 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:29:02pm

re: #182 Achilles Tang

A delicate matter, for sure.

But the buck has to stop with the guy who makes the final decision.

I do wonder if he overrode a security official's opinion.

185 Joanne  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:29:24pm

re: #162 Kragar

The only thing that saddens me is how much sway religious people have in America. The more they push, the further I run from religion.

186 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:29:37pm

re: #183 dragonath

Sad to say, no truer words.

Really, really sad to say.

187 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:30:07pm

re: #181 goddamnedfrank

I was clearly talking about the worldwide protests and what inspired them. You chose to cast doubt on that being the real cause. Of what, I don't know.

That's not was I said. I'm saying that to dismiss the real, stated reason for the protests as not actually spontaneously causing them plays into the wingnut logic that there was no protest. The attack and the protests may have been separate with the protest used as cover, or the attack may have come as an organic escalation in an society with a ridiculous amount of small arms and a recent history of using them to effect. The protests however, were about exactly what the people protesting said they were about.

I give up. You win. I don't know what you win, but you win it.

You also just said exactly what I've been attempting to say, with the minor caveat that those who planned the attack may have poured fuel on the fire of outrage over the video for their own purposes.

Let's assume for the sake of shalom bayit that the confusion is based on my inability to write in English.

188 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:30:30pm

Time to get the bus.

189 EPR-radar  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:31:00pm

re: #180 SanFranciscoZionist

I'll agree with all your points, but 3. seems to be a sticking place at the moment.

I'm baffled by that.

For completeness, my list should have included:

5) The US security professionals involved with the situation need to identify any "lessons learned" that could be implemented to reduce the chances of such attacks working in the future. This information would properly remain classified.

190 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:31:04pm

re: #188 SanFranciscoZionist

Don't forget to meditate.

191 efuseakay  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:33:54pm

re: #104 Charles Johnson

Still not getting it.

Yes, of course there needs to be an examination of what happened, and if there were mistakes made then policies need to be adjusted. Just as with any other incident of this kind.

Why is there supposed to be some kind of special secret ass-covering going on with Benghazi? I don't see it. I see everyone involved acting as responsibly as possible in a bad situation. What am I missing?

BENGHAZI!

192 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:34:40pm

The most direct and credible information we have about the motivation of the Benghazi attackers is in this New York Times report by David Kilpatrick: Election-Year Stakes Overshadow Nuances of Benghazi Investigation

To Libyans who witnessed the assault and know the attackers, there is little doubt what occurred: a well-known group of local Islamist militants struck the United States Mission without any warning or protest, and they did it in retaliation for the video. That is what the fighters said at the time, speaking emotionally of their anger at the video without mentioning Al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden or the terrorist strikes of 11 years earlier. And it is an explanation that tracks with their history as members of a local militant group determined to protect Libya from Western influence.

That's a pretty conclusive statement. The Islamist militants were enraged by the video -- as many other Muslims were in the Middle East right then. This group had their own compound, and were already armed and trained. Very little planning would have been necessary.

I don't think there's a mystery here at all.

193 dragonfire1981  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:36:18pm

Thanks for all the earlier help guys re: blogs but I have just one more question: Should I start with a format that does allow comments or one that doesn't?

I know allowing them can be something of a minefield but it can also draw site traffic so I'm kind of on the fence here.

194 allegro  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:38:39pm

re: #193 dragonfire1981

Thanks for all the earlier help guys re: blogs but I have just one more question: Should I start with a format that does allow comments or one that doesn't?

I know allowing them can be something of a minefield but it can also draw site traffic so I'm kind of on the fence here.

Allow them. You can always change to moderated or no comments if there's a problem.

195 makeitstop  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:38:47pm

re: #193 dragonfire1981

Thanks for all the earlier help guys re: blogs but I have just one more question: Should I start with a format that does allow comments or one that doesn't?

I know allowing them can be something of a minefield but it can also draw site traffic so I'm kind of on the fence here.

If you can, moderate your comments at first.

Blog software like Wordpress attracts spambots like food attracts ants. You may want to keep an eye on the comments coming in. It's pretty easy to spot the spam.

196 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:41:11pm

Those 19 guys who died in Pakistan were killed by Pakistani police, because that government wasn't going to just let them overrun the US embassy. The Pakistanis, unlike the Libyans, hadn't just experienced a massive, country wide revolution, the organs of the State were functioning normally. My point is that looking for dark forces manipulating sentiments or using protests as cover misses what should be an inescapable conclusion, that there was a protest in Benghazi, and it wasn't just manufactured cynically as cover for a pre planned attack. Muslims, around the world, were genuinely pissed off over that video.

197 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:43:22pm

re: #193 dragonfire1981

Have to allow them on some level, at least if an open discussion about what you post and write is what you're looking for. Again, it depends on what you want out of it.

198 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:43:23pm

re: #192 Charles Johnson

From the Office of the Director of National Intelligence:

As we learned more about the attack, we revised our initial assessment to reflect new information indicating that it was a deliberate and organized terrorist attack carried out by extremists. It remains unclear if any group or person exercised overall command and control of the attack, and if extremist group leaders directed their members to participate. However, we do assess that some of those involved were linked to groups affiliated with, or sympathetic to al-Qa'ida. We continue to make progress, but there remain many unanswered questions. As more information becomes available our analysis will continue to evolve and we will obtain a more complete understanding of the circumstances surrounding the terrorist attack.

Again this has nothing to do with the Administration- this is about a bureaucratic machine that may or may not need to revise security protocols.

199 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:43:57pm

re: #197 Ghost of Tom Joad

Have to allow them on some level, at least if an open discussion about what you post and write is what you're looking for. Again, it depends on what you want out of it.

Will there be boob-pun threads?

200 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:45:23pm

re: #192 Charles Johnson

You can just copy/paste this post and article excerpt in response to every disgustingly stupid attempt at the anti-Obama conspiracy morons to turn this into some sort of cover-up.

201 dragonfire1981  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:45:29pm

Yeah, I am definitely NOT looking for unmoderated comments. I've seen the cesspool that is Youtube comments, not going there.

Boob pun threads? Probably not, but definitely some humor from time to time.

202 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:47:02pm

re: #199 Decatur Deb

Daily boobs. Some sites have "hot lady of the day." Though if he (she?? sorry) is looking for discussion about topics involving important world issues, it might not exactly attract the most intelligent of commentariat.

203 engineer cat  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:48:16pm

GOP Determined To Have Scandal Investigations Even If No Actual Sex Is Directly Involved

presence of petraeus sex scandal on periphery enough to cause arousal in scandal mongers

204 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:49:13pm

re: #201 dragonfire1981

Yeah, I am definitely NOT looking for unmoderated comments. I've seen the cesspool that is Youtube comments, not going there.

Boob pun threads? Probably not, but definitely some humor from time to time.

Make sure whatever you use has full registration, email verification, and IP tracking (or whatever they use to block multiple sock-puppet accounts from spamming). Less likely to generate stupidity if they have to put in effort to do it.

205 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:49:21pm

Reuters captured the confusion here.

The whole report is reflective of the conflicting reports and describes the confusion as the event happened and the attempts to understand what happened after the fact.

206 compound_Idaho  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:49:33pm

re: #192 Charles Johnson

The most direct and credible information we have about the motivation of the Benghazi attackers is in this New York Times report by David Kilpatrick: Election-Year Stakes Overshadow Nuances of Benghazi Investigation

That's a pretty conclusive statement. The Islamist militants were enraged by the video -- as many other Muslims were in the Middle East right then. This group had their own compound, and were already armed and trained. Very little planning would have been necessary.

I don't think there's a mystery here at all.

Well, there you have it. It was a spontaneous terrorist attack.

207 dragonath  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:49:38pm

re: #201 dragonfire1981

Speaking of blogs, I kind of miss when Hilzoy posted on Obsidian Wings. That was like the gold standard of moderated comments.

208 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:51:54pm

Koch Brothers Tea Party Front Group Attacks Hispanic Republican Governor for Cooperating with Obama Regime.

Americans for Prosperity, the group associated with small-government crusader Grover Norquist, is at odds with Republican Gov. Susana Martinez over New Mexico's taking part in establishing a state-run clearinghouse to help small businesses and uninsured individuals to find affordable health insurance.

[...]

About 20 percent of the state’s population lacks health care, and it’s estimated as many as 250,000 New Mexicans may become eligible to buy health insurance through the exchange between 2014 and 2020.

Yeah, I rewrote the headline. Did I get it right?

209 compound_Idaho  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:52:55pm

re: #207 dragonath

Speaking of blogs, I kind of miss when Hilzoy posted on Obsidian Wings. That was like the gold standard of moderated comments.

What a coincidence, I am drinking a Deshcutes Brewery Obsidian Stout at this moment. Delicious!

210 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:54:02pm

re: #208 wrenchwench

Koch Brothers Tea Party Front Group Attacks Hispanic Republican Governor for Cooperating with Obama Regime.

Yeah, I rewrote the headline. Did I get it right?

Didn't waste much time licking their wounds.

211 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:54:09pm

re: #208 wrenchwench

Koch Brothers Tea Party Front Group Attacks Hispanic Republican Governor for Cooperating with Obama Regime.

Yeah, I rewrote the headline. Did I get it right?

The amount of energy wasted on stupid is just incredible.

Imagine if we could put that towards something productive.

212 Stanghazi  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:54:09pm

re: #208 wrenchwench

Koch Brothers Tea Party Front Group Attacks Hispanic Republican Governor for Cooperating with Obama Regime.

Yeah, I rewrote the headline. Did I get it right?

Perfect. Yep, tomorrow is the deadline for a state's commitment to the insurance exchanges. We're going to see what citizens, by bad luck of residing in a currently GOP led state are screwed.

213 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:54:41pm

re: #198 researchok

From the Office of the Director of National Intelligence:

Again this has nothing to do with the Administration- this is about a bureaucratic machine that may or may not need to revise security protocols.

Here's the thing - I can probably guarantee that's already happened. I'm sure those responsible have looked at security protocols, especially involving overseas diplomats working in potentially hostile situations.

And I'm sure everything possible is being done to find out who carried out the attacks in order to bring them to justice and to figure out if they are affiliated with a larger terrorist network.

The rest of this ridiculous kabuki is nothing more than grasping at straws by those looking for a thread with which to start pulling at like a bunch of A.D.D. kittens.

214 blueraven  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:54:57pm

re: #206 compound_Idaho

Well, there you have it. It was a spontaneous terrorist attack.

Maybe an opportunistic attack carried out by extremist. I dont see why these are mutually exclusive.

215 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:55:11pm

re: #210 Decatur Deb

Didn't waste much time licking their wounds.

First they pour in the salt. Then maybe lick 'em.

216 dragonath  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:55:33pm

re: #208 wrenchwench

This should make anyone feel bad. It's an attempt to destroy constructive Republican ideas because they build on Democratic successes. Super PAC money may have saved the party in the short term but it has destroyed hope for a renaissance.

217 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:56:04pm

re: #212 Stanghazi

Take it to the bank..

They will be screwed. Why? Because this current lot of idiots can't/won't learn from their mistakes.

What you are witnessing is an adult tantrum.

218 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:57:23pm

re: #213 Ghost of Tom Joad

I hope you are right about that.

The CIA isn't exactly the most forthcoming or truthful lot.

219 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:57:29pm

re: #216 dragonath

This should make anyone feel bad. It's an attempt to destroy constructive Republican ideas because they build on Democratic successes. Super PAC money may have saved the party in the short term but it has destroyed hope for a renaissance.

Wingnuts don't feel bad because it's other people who suffer from their bullshit, and they have no empathy.

220 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:58:25pm

re: #219 wrenchwench

Not all of us.

221 OhNoZombies!  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:58:36pm

Jeezus, I'm never gonna catch up...

222 Ben G. Hazi  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:59:04pm

re: #219 wrenchwench

Wingnuts don't feel bad because it's other people who suffer from their bullshit, and they have no empathy.

Isn't that a definition of sociopathy/psychopathy?

223 dragonath  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 4:59:11pm

re: #220 researchok

Not all of us.

Hey! You aren't a wingnut! :)

224 Inconsequential Consequence  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:00:29pm

re: #223 dragonath

Hey! You aren't a wingnut! :)

Sure he is, he just has a left handed thread.

225 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:01:19pm

re: #223 dragonath

Actually, that's true.

I do not count myself as a member that tribe.

Not even close.

Mostly, I'm a social liberal (I support choice and gay marriage) and a fiscal conservative (I have the strange notion we ought to be able to afford what spend).

226 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:01:37pm

re: #224 b_Snark

LOLOL

227 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:02:17pm

re: #218 researchok

Well...I mean come on, I'd take a guess that security was beefed up at every overseas installation we have (even if it isn't reported in the news, I'm sure it happened). And you're going to tell me that these guys aren't being actively hunted down? Granted, it may be a long time, or even never, that they're caught (especially in a chaotic environment like post-revolution Libya).

Believe me I don't exactly trust most of these guys either (hell the guy in charge was swinging his dick around like a college quarterback). But you have to assume things are being properly taken care of at this point. They don't want more blood on their hands, and apprehending/killing those responsible would be an enormous feather in their caps.

228 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:02:29pm

re: #220 researchok

Not all of us.

Apparently you're still having difficulty in letting go.

229 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:03:12pm

re: #227 Ghost of Tom Joad

Like I said, I hope you are right.

When it comes to government, the DMV comes to mind.

230 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:03:40pm

re: #228 wrenchwench

LOLOL

Line of the day. Maybe the week.

231 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:04:49pm

re: #229 researchok

Like I said, I hope you are right.

When it comes to government, the DMV comes to mind.

DMV
NASA
NOAA
CDC
NRC
FAA

232 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:05:37pm

re: #231 Decatur Deb

AND the IRS

233 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:06:03pm

re: #232 researchok

AND the IRS

Makes it all happen, baby.

234 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:06:07pm

re: #229 researchok

As much as the DMV sucks, the people in line who can't:

Bring what they need to bring.
Have it ready.
Properly fill out paperwork.
Know what line to stand in.
Speak a passable form of some language.
Not go on their lunch break with the rest of the planet.

don't exactly help things along.

235 funky chicken  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:06:13pm

re: #72 Killgore Trout

I don't think so. Some attacks can't be avoided and not every attack can be detected before hand but the situation in Benghazi seems like it was very dangerous. If the State Dept or Other Government Agencies couldn't provide the security required for a visit from the ambassador a station officer should have called off the visit. This situation didn't have to happen and steps should be taken to prevent this sort of thing happening in the future.

and if you tell the ambassador it's not safe and he insists upon coming anyway?

the guy was passionate about Libya and thought the local security people would protect him. tragically, he was wrong. but security personnel aren't going to be given veto power over ambassadors any time soon.

236 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:06:46pm

re: #227 Ghost of Tom Joad

Well...I mean come on, I'd take a guess that security was beefed up at every overseas installation we have (even if it isn't reported in the news, I'm sure it happened). And you're going to tell me that these guys aren't being actively hunted down? Granted, it may be a long time, or even never, that they're caught (especially in a chaotic environment like post-revolution Libya).

Believe me I don't exactly trust most of these guys either (hell the guy in charge was swinging his dick around like a college quarterback). But you have to assume things are being properly taken care of at this point. They don't want more blood on their hands, and apprehending/killing those responsible would be an enormous feather in their caps.

That's another outstanding question. There have been 2 arrests (I think) but no other action so far. As far as public knowledge goes we still don't really know who was behind the attack. Membership and leadership of local militias is a murky picture. Who took part, who planned and who was in charge still isn't known yet. I'm a little surprised we haven't seen more action against the perpetrators yet.

237 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:08:50pm

re: #236 Killgore Trout

I'm a little surprised we haven't seen more action against the perpetrators yet.

I'm OK with that.

If these are the guys, we can deal with them after we've got all we need from them

Think KSM, et al.

And let's be sure these are the guys.

238 dragonath  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:09:13pm

re: #236 Killgore Trout

I remember seeing this after the attack:

Drones expected to hunt for suspects in Libya attack

239 makeitstop  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:09:27pm

re: #236 Killgore Trout

I'm a little surprised we haven't seen more action against the perpetrators yet.

It's a long game. Look how long it took to get OBL.

If they can be gotten, I'm confident they will be. Might take a while, though.

240 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:10:17pm

re: #235 funky chicken

and if you tell the ambassador it's not safe and he insists upon coming anyway?

the guy was passionate about Libya and thought the local security people would protect him. tragically, he was wrong. but security personnel aren't going to be given veto power over ambassadors any time soon.

I don't know about that. I'm not sure of the exact chain of command but the President can't overrule the secret service on security/travel issues. The Ambassador may have pressured or strong armed the station chief but security should take precedence. If security can't overrule the ambassador under current rules maybe that's something that should be looked at.

241 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:11:01pm

re: #238 dragonath

I remember seeing this after the attack:

Drones expected to hunt for suspects in Libya attack

I remember that but the lack of asplosions has been disappointing.

242 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:11:52pm

re: #238 dragonath

re: #239 makeitstop

There will be another late night statement from the WH announcing the perpetrators have been dealt with.

Not to worry.

And it will be a very good day.

243 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:12:42pm

re: #236 Killgore Trout

That's another outstanding question. There have been 2 arrests (I think) but no other action so far. As far as public knowledge goes we still don't really know who was behind the attack. Membership and leadership of local militias is a murky picture. Who took part, who planned and who was in charge still isn't known yet. I'm a little surprised we haven't seen more action against the perpetrators yet.

Well, can't act against a perpetrator when we don't know who they are exactly. Hell, Benghazi is the 2nd largest city in Libya. You have various militia groups and ex-military running around armed to the teeth after the rebellion. With a situation that's still volatile, can't exactly send guys door-to-door knocking.

244 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:13:16pm

It's raining here.

I'm considering blaming WW.
/

245 dragonath  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:13:30pm

Well, they are our allies now, and not in the Pakistan kind of way. Surely there must be a different protocol.

246 funky chicken  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:13:59pm

re: #241 Killgore Trout

you need to stop thinking this is an episode of csi

247 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:14:00pm

I miss the rooster!

248 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:14:51pm

re: #244 researchok

It's raining here.

I'm considering blaming WW.
/

WTF?? I'm in New Mexico. We don't have any of that stuff to spare!!

249 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:15:16pm

re: #243 Ghost of Tom Joad

Well, can't act against a perpetrator when we don't know who they are exactly. Hell, Benghazi is the 2nd largest city in Libya. You have various militia groups and ex-military running around armed to the teeth after the rebellion. With a situation that's still volatile, can't exactly send guys door-to-door knocking.

I also suspect internal Libyan politics may be an issue. The country is still fragile. I seem to recall reading that the local police chief was fired after the attack since there were suspicions of police involvement. Last I heard the new police chief couldn't take over because the old one just refused to leave.

250 Sophist is the VillageGreen Preservation Society  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:15:37pm

re: #178 SanFranciscoZionist

That's their purpose, sure. The only thing I'm saying here is that I think that there may have been a plan in place before the video provided a means to spark a larger action.

But really, does anything that transpired require there to have been a larger degree of planning? As far as I know, the attack consisted of blocking off the streets with gun trucks and then overwhelming the defenders with sheer numbers. Is there anything here that couldn't have been put into effect by local militias in a few hours?

251 funky chicken  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:17:48pm

re: #240 Killgore Trout

you think the USSS was happy to hear about Burma? lollollollollollollol

252 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:19:14pm

re: #248 wrenchwench

The gods smile on NC.

We have great BBQ too.

Not so much in the green chili dept, though.

253 dragonath  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:21:49pm

Something that got lost in the shuffle:

Libya swears in first elected government

254 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:22:18pm

re: #247 Dancing along the light of day

I miss the rooster!

He was delicious!
/

255 Ghost of Tom Joad  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:23:08pm

re: #249 Killgore Trout

I also suspect internal Libyan politics may be an issue. The country is still fragile. I seem to recall reading that the local police chief was fired after the attack since there were suspicions of police involvement. Last I heard the new police chief couldn't take over because the old one just refused to leave.

It's a mess. Everybody wants quick results, justice to be done, and Asplosions! But, with so little information, I won't hold my breath about anything happening. There could have been any number of militants involved. Never going to get them all.

Most important thing, for me, is that the originators of the attack are found. Cut off the head of the snake, so to speak. Those tend to be higher-level folks who are involved in other attacks, illegal activities etc. More exposure/involvement means a higher chance of being found one way or another.

256 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:24:02pm
257 gwangung  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:24:14pm

re: #250 Sophist is the VillageGreen Preservation Society

But really, does anything that transpired require there to have been a larger degree of planning? As far as I know, the attack consisted of blocking off the streets with gun trucks and then overwhelming the defenders with sheer numbers. Is there anything here that couldn't have been put into effect by local militias in a few hours?

Yeah, I think that's kinda pertinent....Think we might be overthinking it.

ETA: And if the leaders spread to the four winds, as opposed to staying in the city, it will certainly take a long time to track them down.

258 gwangung  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:24:54pm

re: #253 dragonath

Something that got lost in the shuffle:

Libya swears in first elected government

Hm. That might have effects on how quickly they investigate, too.

259 dragonath  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:28:20pm

Wow you find the wildest stuff on Google News

Libyan Demand Helps Send Corn-Oil Exports to 6-Year High

260 Sophist is the VillageGreen Preservation Society  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:30:34pm

re: #210 Decatur Deb

Didn't waste much time licking their wounds.

They have people to lick their wounds for them.

261 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:38:46pm

re: #132 Daniel Ballard

re: #104 Charles Johnson

The only healthy approach to this is like the NTSB and FAA after a plane crash with a highly expert crew that passes all the after crash blood tests. Hindsight is all they have after a crash. Weather? Training? Mechanical? Pilot error? What can we learn?

Given the politics, all I feel is nausea at the approach we are actually getting. The right? Going nuts. The left? Circle the wagons to defend themselves from the insane accusations.

This might not sort out for months.

But the ones from all the other embassy attacks since 2004 should be done by now. Couldn't we use them as a guideline for this one too? Is there somewhere online I can find those transcripts from those inquiries and multiple hearings?

262 Kragar  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:40:17pm

re: #260 Sophist is the VillageGreen Preservation Society

They have people to lick their wounds for them.

Thats a disturbing image.

263 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:42:43pm

re: #256 Vicious Babushka

I baked a pie.

I baked a Page.

Yours looks much tastier.

264 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:44:48pm

Image: newgop.jpg

Later lizards.

265 Bubblehead II  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:45:11pm

Night Lizards.

Been an iterating day..

266 Kragar  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:50:03pm

Maine GOP head explains his comments:

He also said he regretted some of the language he used in the previous interviews.

“I regret saying the word black because it wasn’t like I was singling out black,” Webster said. “The reason I said it, ‘cause I don’t know where you live, but where I come from in rural Maine, it’s a small percentage of the population. I think we’re the whitest state in the country. So if you go to the polls and see people who are black, it’s unusual. And when you see a lot of people who are black, like six or eight or ten people, you think, ‘Wow, where do they live?’ That was my point.”

267 engineer cat  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:50:36pm

re: #265 Bubblehead II

Night Lizards.

Been an iterating day..

very recursive of you to mention it

268 erik_t  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:51:06pm

re: #266 Kragar

Maine GOP head explains his comments:

And when you see a lot of people who are black, like six or eight or ten people

#ShitYouHearInMaine

269 dragonfire1981  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:58:13pm

Interesting blog post about some unusual deaths in Thailand:

Your daughter died.

270 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:59:30pm

re: #266 Kragar

Maine GOP head explains his comments:

I don't believe Charlie Webster is a real person. I think he's an Onion headline that somehow escaped captivity and is running amuck in the wild.

271 Eventual Carrion  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 6:00:44pm

re: #267 engineer cat

very recursive of you to mention it

Threw me for a loop


// got two in there

272 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 6:06:12pm

re: #269 dragonfire1981

Interesting blog post about some unusual deaths in Thailand:

Your daughter died.

Reminds me of this very creepy killer.

273 lostlakehiker  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 9:54:02pm

re: #196 goddamnedfrank

Those 19 guys who died in Pakistan were killed by Pakistani police, because that government wasn't going to just let them overrun the US embassy. The Pakistanis, unlike the Libyans, hadn't just experienced a massive, country wide revolution, the organs of the State were functioning normally. My point is that looking for dark forces manipulating sentiments or using protests as cover misses what should be an inescapable conclusion, that there was a protest in Benghazi, and it wasn't just manufactured cynically as cover for a pre planned attack. Muslims, around the world, were genuinely pissed off over that video.

If you look at Charles' post 192 above, there WAS NO PROTEST or demonstration or anything at the Benghazi consulate that day before the attack. The conclusion is far from inescapable. It is untenable. These guys' way of protesting was with fire and movement, not signs and shouting.

274 Tigger2005  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 12:37:56am

re: #273 lostlakehiker

If you look at Charles' post 192 above, there WAS NO PROTEST or demonstration or anything at the Benghazi consulate that day before the attack. The conclusion is far from inescapable. It is untenable. These guys' way of protesting was with fire and movement, not signs and shouting.

Where does it say there was no regular "signs and shouting" protest as well, which was crashed by the "fire and movement" guys?

275 GunstarGreen  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 8:25:23am

And here on your right you can see a superb specimen of the Speckle-Headed Has-Been Codger. Observe the natural majesty as he struts and preens for his natural symbiote, the Press Camera. Let your ears be serenaded by the bitter ravings of a decrepit old man that can't stand the fact he lost to "that one".


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Playing guitar with this band is like trying to grow watermelon in Easter hay.