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About That So-Called ‘Pallywood’ Video…

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This is in response to a couple of other Pages posted regarding film footage of this week’s Israeli air strikes in Gaza, both of which questioned the authenticity of several BBC video clips that at least one Israeli blog & one far-right Israeli news outlet are presenting as “Pallywood” productions.

“Don’t give anyone your eyes.” —ProverbWhile I don’t deny that there have been numerous cases of staged or distorted videos, not to mention photoshopped images, it’s a mistake to take the default position that nearly everything coming out of Gaza (or the West Bank) is distorted without having sufficient proof of that being the case. Why? Because it’s dehumanizing. To be frank, I don’t give a damn if someone has a good reason for being cynical—just because something is understandable doesn’t make it okay. There have been many, many cases of women who have lied about being raped; does that make it okay to assume by default that all or even most women who claim to have been raped are lying? Of course not, no decent, rational person would think such a thing.

A wise man by the name of Bob Levin once relayed to me a (Jewish?) proverb that I’m going to paraphrase here: Don’t give anyone your eyes. Truer words were never spoken. Never, EVER let others tell you what you’re seeing.

So while this may be too long & boring for many of you, I want to make a point by illustrating just how easily our eyes can be deceived, by both our personal biases & preconceived notions and by the speed at which visual information flies by, causing us to miss many subtle details.

Moving right along, the two Pages I mentioned that prompted this response were:

Miraculous Recovery by Injured Gaza Man? - Posted on 11/15 by Daniel. You’ll find my initial objections there.

If Israel is Defending itself, you can be Sure Pallywood has Mobilized - Posted on 11/16 by Sliv. I didn’t voice any objections to his Page as I decided to do so by creating my own detailed response here. Additionally, Charles did a perfect job of voicing exactly what I was thinking as well as pointing out why Aussie Dave of the the israellycool blog is persona non grata here and not considered a reliable source.

With all of this in mind, I decided to sit down and spend a few hours going through the relevant clips in the BBC video frame by frame, grabbing screenshots and annotating them as I went. My conclusions follow.

Claims of Injuries

No one who posted video clips about this incident referenced any Palestinian periodical, blog, or person who claimed that any particular individual in any of the clips had specific injuries, though the actions of the people in the videos do seem to clearly indicate that they were indeed injured, albeit obviously not critically.

The Clips and Their Sequence

Apart from the first clip, it was basically impossible to be 100% certain about the sequence of the five clips in question, which are from this BBC video on YouTube.

The clips I reviewed were actually only about a minute total (from about 01:53 to 02:51 in the timeline). Yes, it took hours to review just under one minute’s worth: 25 fps x 60 sec = 1,500 frames. Add to that scrubbing back & forth through the timeline, looking for identifying details, making notes, extracting the separate clips to their own QuickTime movies, then doing screengrabs of important frames and annotating them. And now writing this.

As I said previously, with the exception of the first one the sequence of the clips remains unestablished, though I do make a best guess towards the end of this Page. I removed the audio from all of the clips as the anchor’s voice-over was nothing but a distraction that doesn’t clarify the timeline or mention injuries of the people seen.

I have provided QuickTime movie versions of each clip so you can scrub through the timelines yourself and verify what I’ve posted, should you be inclined to do so. In order to see the frame count simply click on the time indicator and change it from “Standard” to “Frame Number” (screenshot). You can navigate through the frames one-by-one using the arrow keys on your keyboard.

Clip 1 - Approx. 18 Seconds, 457 Frames

This is the opening clip (around 01:53 in the original YouTube video). I don’t think it’s a huge stretch to assume that this was probably the first clip as it shows the cameraman’s approach to the scene. I say this because some people show up in more than once clip and it was clearly all part of the same event in the same neighborhood.

Based on this clip and the others I was also able to gauge that all the emergency vehicles were facing the site of the explosion/fire, with the closest one appearing to be approximately half a football field or so away from it.

Key Scenes:

Frame #1: Approaching the scene of the Israeli air strike.

Frame #237: The cameraman slows down and takes cover behind emergency vehicle.

Frame #284: The cameraman cautiously looks around side of vehicle’s back door. Here we have the first appearance of tan jacket guy.

Frame #323: Tan jacket guy flags down cameraman signalling him to follow. Here we have the first appearance of green shirt guy.

Frame #353: Cameraman follows tan jacket guy & green shirt guy towards fire.

Frame #407: Cameraman still following Palestinian guys. Green shirt guy appears to change his mind and turns to walk back away from the fire.

Frame #445: Green shirt guy is almost out of view. Tan jacket guy is still heading towards fire.

Frame #457: Green shirt guy is gone from view. Tan jacket guy is still heading towards fire. End of clip.

Clip 1 QuickTime movie

Clip 2 - Approx. 10 Seconds, 267 Frames

Tan jacket guy reappears here, ostensibly injured or at least temporarily knocked senseless. Green shirt guy (who was wise enough to head AWAY from the trouble in the last clip) also reappears to help.

Key Scenes:

Frame #1: Tan jacket guy being lifted from ground by green shirt guy & others. He appears to be unconscious & slack-jawed.

Frame #22: We see that tan jacket guy has a shoe on his right foot.

Frame #66: Tan jacket guy appears to regain consciousness; looks like he’s yelling.

Frame #79: We see that tan jacket guy is missing his left shoe and the sole of his foot is covered with dirt. I point this out because it strikes me as rather odd that in a scene people are claiming to be staged, the actors would bother with such a tiny detail, yet overlook the numerous appearances in the other clips of tan jacket guy looking uninjured.

In the video you can see that even after he’s come to, his arms are still flopping around like wet noodles and the half dozen or so guys carrying him are having a hard time holding on as he’s pretty hefty and appears to be dead weight.

Note that he is clearly being carried AWAY from the fire back towards the emergency vehicles in this clip, and he’s on the vehicles’ LEFT side. In clip 1 he’s walking TOWARDS the fire and away from the emergency vehicles and is on the vehicles’ RIGHT side.

Clip 2 QuickTime movie

Clip 3 - Approx. 13 Seconds, 337 Frames

I didn’t bother taking any screenshots of this one as the idea that it was staged struck me as absurd. The only reason I’m pointing it out is because some yahoo at the isreallycool blog claimed that tan jacket guy “may have a co-star in Reflective Vest Man”. The guy in the reflective vest—who it seems to me (based on his attire) is pretty clearly a first responder, probably a firefighter—is being carried away from the fire to the emergency vehicles by another guy in identical attire.

Neither man seems to be either playing to or avoiding the camera at any point. Why “fake” an injury if you know the camera is going to show that you can stand on your own? It doesn’t make sense. I mean, the guy is a first responder coming from a FIRE in what is probably a bombed out building, how do we know he didn’t sprain an ankle bad enough to be unable to walk back on his own? Hell, he could also have a broken foot, been burned, or suffered an internal injury we can’t see. It was stupid to question this clip.

The only notable thing about it is the absence of civilians milling about in the street even though the two men appear to be fairly close to the scene of the bombing.

Clip 3 QuickTime movie

Clip 4 - Approx. 11 Seconds, 292 Frames

More snark from the israellycool blog (seems that israellyasshole would’ve been a more suitable name) where a commenter claims there are “three boys dressed up as women”. They might want to consider picking on someone besides teenage girls, FFS.

Key Scenes:

Frame #48: Hijabi girl #1 and #2 both exhibit female curves & proportions and have very feminine hands.

Frame #66: Green hoodie teen’s hand is sort of feminine, but still difficult to determine gender.

Frame #115: Hijabi girl #1 has a clearly feminine face.

Frame #205: Tan jacket guy makes yet another appearance. He’s looking towards the fire (the girls are running away from it), but walks away from it. He’s back up by the emergency vehicles, however he’s on their LEFT as he was in clip 2 (where he was knocked out) rather than on the RIGHT as he was in clip 1 (where he initially flagged down the cameraman).

How does this clip fit into the sequence of events? Did the cameraman follow him all the way down towards the fire (staying on the vehicles’ right side, as in clip 1), then film him being carried AWAY from the fire (this time staying on the vehicles’ left side) after he’d been knocked out? If so, why didn’t he also film whatever laid him out?

Clip 4 QuickTime movie

Clip 5 - Approx. 3 Seconds, 87 Frames

I’m posting this last short clip because of a comment sliv_the_eli made yesterday in reply to Charles in which he said, in part (emphasis mine):

If it helps, I suggest, looking at the footage again. After the individual in the tan jacket is shown walking around on his own at approx. 2:45 of the clip, keep watching the background, when he picks up what looks like a pole of some sort and is angrily waving it. That is not, to my knowledge, how a person injured in a military strike walks, moves or otherwise is able to carry himself.

If you see something different, or if I am missing something, please enlighten me. I am not unwilling to admit a mistake if it can be shown that I have don [sic] so.

Sliv, if you happen to come across this, you’re the one who needs to look at the footage again because there’s some serious confirmation bias involved in what your eyes are seeing versus what is actually there.

Key Scenes:

Frame #2: Tan jacket guy picks up pipe/pole from street.

Frame #42: Tan jacket guy raises pipe/pole.

Frame #45: Tan jacket guy tosses pipe/pole of to side, out of people’s way.

Frame #48: Pipe/pole continues sailing out of view.

Frame #52: Tan jacket guy continues towards fire, disappears from view.

What an asshole, huh? Shame on him for pulling that good Samaritan crap!

Clip 5 QuickTime movie

Conclusion

My best guess is that the actual sequence of events was clip 1 (arrival), clip 5 (tan jacket guy approaching fire and throwing pipe/pole), clip 2 (tan jacket guy being rescued), and finally clip 4 (tan jacket guy recovered and heading away from scene).

Another thing that supports the idea of clip 4 following clip 2 is something I noticed just a few minutes ago: the presence of “grey shirt guy” in two clips. In clip 2 frame #141 he’s one of the men carrying tan jacket guy. In clip 4 frame #214 we see him walking past tan jacket guy (who has recovered) and hijabi girl #1, then in clip 4 frame #292 we see him standing behind tan jacket guy looking at whatever the rest of the people are looking at.

There’s a snag though—where did green shirt guy go? Remember, he was also one of the men carrying tan jacket guy and we saw him walking away from the scene in clip 1. That one leaves me stumped.

I have no idea where clip 3 fits in (the one with the first responder guy being carried across the other guy’s shoulders).

So there we have it. What exactly do we have? Well, nothing really—no smoking gun, no definitive proof of staging or fakery, nor is there proof that there wasn’t staging or fakery. I can say this with confidence after spending hours reviewing each & every frame. Can anyone here who has questioned the video do the same? If so, speak up. If not, then you might want to consider not jumping to conclusions so fast in the future.

You know what? If the cynics & haters out there want to sneer in contempt at every photo & film clip and believe the worst about people just because they’re Palestinian Arabs, then they can kiss my ass because there’s a word for that—bigotry. Likewise if there are people out there who want to sneer in contempt at every photo & film clip and believe the worst about people just because they’re Israeli Jews, they can also kiss my ass and shove their damned bigotry where the sun never shines. I am sick and tired of the mutual hate. I don’t care anymore why you’re so pissed at each other or who started it… Go right ahead and keep killing and maiming and hating each other until Judgment Day. I. Am. Sick. Of. The. Whole. Damned. Mess. You don’t like me anymore for saying that? Tough shit, we’ll both get over it.1

I fully intend to continue giving people the benefit of the doubt on an individual basis until they prove that they don’t deserve to be trusted. If some of you guys aren’t going to give a second thought to posting the bogus crap that gets vomited out of the bowels of the internet by haters, then expect to be challenged.

Oh, one last thing: Since someone is almost certain to bring it up, yes, I would also challenge a video that claimed Israelis had staged something to gain sympathy if there were no obvious proof of that being the case.

Now I’m off to enjoy what’s left of my Saturday as this Page is bound to be irresistible bait to all the little wingnut stealth down-dingers who hide in the shadows. Knock yourselves out—I’ll try not to cry myself to sleep tonight over your displeasure, kthxbai! ;-D

1. Disclaimer: My strong feelings on this matter aren’t aimed at any specific LGF members, they are general. I mentioned Daniel & Sliv in this post because they created the Pages I referenced.

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418 comments

1 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 2:57:41pm

Bravo!

2 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 3:09:25pm

Hamas has faked videos. It's completely true.

But civilian casualties are a part of this sort of thing. They just are. Israel can do its best to avoid them, but it will still kill innocents when it attacks Hamas.

Attempting to turn away from this fact is not useful.

3 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 3:12:50pm

re: #1 Charles Johnson

Bravo!

Thanks! It was a PITA, but I learned a lot.

4 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 3:18:15pm

re: #2 Obdicut

And Netanyahu's government is doing what to lessen the deaths in Gaza? Nothing. In fact, let's look at this:

But then the question came up of just who would define what Defined Military Sites were. I received a letter – to my and to Arafat, at the same time – which said that Israel, and only Israel, would be the one to define what those are, the location of those military sites and their size. Now, they did not want to give me that letter, so I did not give the Hebron Agreement. I stopped the government meeting, I said: “I’m not signing.” Only when the letter came, in the course of the meeting, to my and to Arafat, only then did I sign the Hebron Agreement. Or rather, ratify it, it had already been signed. Why does this matter? Because at that moment I actually stopped the Oslo Accord.

Sorry, he doesn't give a damn about Palestinians. And Israel will remain hard right for the forseeable future.

5 wrenchwench  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 3:20:51pm

Stealth upding applied.

Ooops, I'm doin' it rong, aren't I.

6 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 3:22:13pm

re: #5 wrenchwench

Stealth upding applied.

Ooops, I'm doin' it rong, aren't I.

Sheesh, do I have to explain everything to you? LOL

7 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 3:27:00pm

re: #4 ProGunLiberal

And Netanyahu's government is doing what to lessen the deaths in Gaza?

Using precision weaponry rather than unguided rockets.

Nothing. In fact, let's look at this:

That quote is unrelated to the current attack.

Sorry, he doesn't give a damn about Palestinians. And Israel will remain hard right for the forseeable future.

Bibi is not Israel. Are you honestly asserting that the entire Israeli army no longer gives a shit about civilian casualties?

8 Political Atheist  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 3:27:27pm

CL, nice break down. Really well done.

9 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 3:30:38pm

I'm going to have to promote this one, but I'll leave it for another hour or so in case you want to edit anything.

10 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 3:30:44pm

Nice work Curious Lurker. Looks like a lot of work and time went into it. Including the graphics. :D

11 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 3:41:17pm

re: #7 Obdicut

Then explain why we see so many dead or permanently crippled children. At best, they are deciding to be trigger happy. Right now, the civilian toll is way the heck higher in Gaza than Israel.

Like Gus, I am quickly becoming cranky about this. Partially because I do have Palestinian friends, and I hear them getting ever more frustrated with this, and being told their relatives still over there deserve it. In fact, one of them vented at someone at OU who said just that. Nobody seems to give a damn about the Palestinians. At what point do they come into the picture? I get the feeling that last question there has only a theoretical answer. I am emotionally tied to those friends, even though I remember Alouette being rather nasty about it, as shown here. Again, empathy for Palestinians is where now? Cause I see none.

12 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 3:45:46pm

re: #11 ProGunLiberal

Then explain why we see so many dead or permanently crippled children.

Civilian casualties are a part of this sort of thing. They just are. As I said. Especially since Hamas deliberately launches attacks from civilian areas.

In fact, one of them vented at someone at OU who said just that. Nobody seems to give a damn about the Palestinians.

Well, that's untrue.

Again, empathy for Palestinians is where now? Cause I see none.

Then you're not looking. This page, for example. My first comment on it. Comments I've made over the past few days. Including one in reply to Allouette.

Why do you focus on her comment, and not my reply? Or that she updinged my reply?

What you're saying is demonstrably false. There have been a lot of people on here showing concerns for Palestinians. That you prefer to ignore that is weird.

13 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 3:49:08pm

re: #9 Charles Johnson

I'm going to have to promote this one, but I'll leave it for another hour or so in case you want to edit anything.

Yikes, it's monstrously long, are you sure?? If you decide to go ahead, then thanks in advance (I'm getting ready to go veg out).

I just finished proofreading (again) and I'm done editing now. My eyes & brain are both toast.

14 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 3:50:00pm

re: #11 ProGunLiberal

Then explain why we see so many dead or permanently crippled children. At best, they are deciding to be trigger happy. Right now, the civilian toll is way the heck higher in Gaza than Israel.

Like Gus, I am quickly becoming cranky about this. Partially because I do have Palestinian friends, and I hear them getting ever more frustrated with this, and being told their relatives still over there deserve it. In fact, one of them vented at someone at OU who said just that. Nobody seems to give a damn about the Palestinians. At what point do they come into the picture? I get the feeling that last question there has only a theoretical answer. I am emotionally tied to those friends, even though I remember Alouette being rather nasty about it, as shown here. Again, empathy for Palestinians is where now? Cause I see none.

I guess you missed that part where, just before I posted that comment, I had just learned that some personal friends of my son and daughter-in-law were murdered by a Hamas rocket in Kiryat Malachi.

15 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 3:50:00pm

re: #8 Daniel Ballard

CL, nice break down.

Thanks, Daniel.

16 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 3:52:25pm

CL: check out the way I inserted a blank line after the H6 subheadings... when you do that the subheading's bottom margin is decreased so it sits closer to the paragraph it belongs with.

17 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 3:52:28pm

re: #10 Gus

Nice work Curious Lurker. Looks like a lot of work and time went into it. Including the graphics. :D

Thanks. You have no idea. I'm afraid I'm gonna be dreaming about all those people for the next week. ;)

18 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 3:52:58pm

re: #11 ProGunLiberal

Also, dude, you've called for the mass bombing of goddamn Argentina over the Falkland Isles, while acknowledging that would kill a shitload of civilians, so I don't really understand where you get off with this po-faced "Please someone think of the civilians" stuff.

19 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 3:53:51pm

Thanks for your hard work, CL!

20 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 3:54:34pm

re: #14 Vicious Babushka

I guess you missed that part where, just before I posted that comment, I had just learned that some personal friends of my son and daughter-in-law were murdered by a Hamas rocket in Kiryat Malachi.

I'm sorry for your loss, Alouette. {{{hugs}}}

21 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 3:54:40pm

re: #7 Obdicut

And now, I am not asserting that the entire Israeli army is completely uncaring about Palistinian casualties. However, where do you see Likud/Yisrael Beiteinu being forced out of power. Because I simply don't see it happening not in the next few decades anyway.

Not only that. But let's take a look at both of these parties. YB outright states they don't want Israeli Arabs to have citizenship and Tzipi Hotovely of Likud has said lovely things like this.

In July 2011, Hotovely met with Glenn Beck. She told him that "this [Israeli-Palestinian] conflict isn't territorial...This is a religious battle led by Islam. We can't ignore this basic truth."

re: #14 Vicious Babushka

And what do you think she is going through?!? Probably the same. And how can you not see this.

In any case, I am asking the lady in question to write a little piece for me on her thoughts and stuff, that I can post on a page or something here.

22 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 3:57:00pm

re: #18 Obdicut

I've cooled off since then on Argentina.

I still think Britain needs to jack up its defense spending. Argentina will try again, and Britain keeps cutting its defense. Which is a poor idea. We also need to dump the Monroe Doctrine, so we aren't stuck defending Argentina's hyper-nationalism.

23 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 3:57:57pm

re: #21 ProGunLiberal

And now, I am not asserting that the entire Israeli army is completely uncaring about Palistinian casualties. However, where do you see Likud/Yisrael Beiteinu being forced out of power. Because I simply don't see it happening not in the next few decades anyway.

Not only that. But let's take a look at both of these parties. YB outright states they don't want Israeli Arabs to have citizenship and Tzipi Hotovely of Likud has said lovely things like this.

re: #14 Vicious Babushka

And what do you think she is going through?!? Probably the same. And how can you not see this.

In any case, I am asking the lady in question to write a little piece for me on her thoughts and stuff, that I can post on a page or something here.

PGL, give it a rest. Shaking your finger at someone when they're hurting over a very recent personal loss doesn't do anyone any good.

24 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 4:00:13pm

re: #22 ProGunLiberal

I've cooled off since then on Argentina.
.

That's great. But you do recall calling for the mass bombing of Argentinian cities, including the deaths of many civilians, right? You advocated for that?

So where do you get off suddenly lecturing other people on how nobody here cares about Palestinian civilians? Especially when it's a goddamn lie?

25 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 4:02:07pm

re: #21 ProGunLiberal

Granted, the Palestinian I am asking for a piece to write is likely not the old Arab. She's paler than I am, and I am chock-full of Scandinavian and British Isle Blood.

Her explanation of her family history when she told me makes it seem like she is a descendant of the Adyghe who the Russians ethnically cleansed in the 1800's. It sounds like they stopped in Turkey, then moved south when the Ottomans allowed them to take land there.

26 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 4:06:55pm

re: #24 Obdicut

Yes, I do remember and I am ashamed of that.

At the same time I find this to be very counter-productive. The heavy bombing will result in heavy civilian casualties and will only make Hamas more popular. Which insures that this whole thing will happen again, in a cycle of death.

27 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 4:08:23pm

re: #26 ProGunLiberal

Yes, I do remember and I am ashamed of that.

That's nice to hear.

At the same time I find this to be very counter-productive. The heavy bombing will result in heavy civilian casualties and will only make Hamas more popular. Which insures that this whole thing will happen again, in a cycle of death.

Whatever. I'm trying to talk to you about your accusation that nobody here is thinking of Palestinian casualties. It's a lie. Why the hell say it? What does it benefit you?

28 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 4:09:08pm

Lot's of noise in Gaza tonight. Sounds more like artillery than bombing.

29 Political Atheist  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 4:17:54pm

re: #11 ProGunLiberal

Then explain why we see so many dead or permanently crippled children. At best, they are deciding to be trigger happy. Right now, the civilian toll is way the heck higher in Gaza than Israel.

Like Gus, I am quickly becoming cranky about this. Partially because I do have Palestinian friends, and I hear them getting ever more frustrated with this, and being told their relatives still over there deserve it. In fact, one of them vented at someone at OU who said just that. Nobody seems to give a damn about the Palestinians. At what point do they come into the picture? I get the feeling that last question there has only a theoretical answer. I am emotionally tied to those friends, even though I remember Alouette being rather nasty about it, as shown here. Again, empathy for Palestinians is where now? Cause I see none.

I have empathy for the Palestinians. Of course I do. I have empathy for each and every non combatant involved. This conflict needs to end and it's not going to soon. And I too have Arab and Palestinian friends. My friends moved out of the battle zone and started businesses here.

I happen to think their leadership in Gaza is completely insane and a political anathema. A political and moral lost cause. I speak here of Hamas. Not Palestinians they threaten and draft. My friends happen to agree.

Now let's chat a bit about the combatants. The Hamas gunners are not even trying to hit military targets most of the time. The body count is lower in Israel. But not for any lack of effort by Hamas. They too have precision weapons available in the past and they have used them in the past. They are the homicide bombers. Far too often they did not aim at combatants. They aimed at civilians to foment panic and terror. Buses and cafes. I have no words to express the depth of my contempt for that tactic. Truly if they made every effort to attack military/intelligence targets I would have far more respect for their efforts. They are holding their own people hostage, many unwillingly. I suspect mostly.

The problem with my friends from over there is their tales would be anecdotal and beyond confirmation. I'll go this far-The panic a family can experience once they realize that Hamas or Hezbollah weapons are going into their neighborhood is profound. They would evacuate to an island in the Med. They felt extremely grateful they had the means.

Israel is not going to put up with rocket fire. It's out of the question. Israel is working hard to avoid civilian casualties on both sides. Superhuman effort is made. The phone alert system is unique and effective. Iron Dome and Patriot installations are pure defense. As weaponry goes, that's the kind that helps prevent war, hold off escalation. Then we see a video of them attacking a single vehicle with a weapon small enough to destroy the car but not the block. Like the US they make every effort to hit only combatants and weapons.

That is a profoundly under recognized even ignored moral difference.
The IDF YouTube channel is by definition propaganda. It's all about promoting the Israeli POV. So, can anyone show there is any fake video there? Do we have examples of anything but unintentional civilian deaths as a result of IDF attacks in Gaza?

I'm a critic of many Israeli policies, like the settlements. I wish they could use more restraint. I don't see how they could. Critique the "hard right" politics all you want. The Gaza leadership absolutely belongs in an insane asylum. The Israeli hard right deserves to be unelected from dominance. Quite a difference. Because no matter who is in charge in Israel, the Palestinians won't see things improve until they have sane leadership less likely to exploit them.

30 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 4:19:55pm

re: #27 Obdicut

Okay, I admit to being over the top on the accusation. And for that, I apologize.

It just seems to me that we are paying less attention to the Palestinians. Having Palestinian friends, this grates at me.

Has Russia ever apologized for ethnically cleansing the Adyghe? They essentially did what the Serbians attempted to do to the Bosnians, Croatians, and Kosovars. However, that backfired.

31 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 4:24:07pm

This was obviously a lot of work, and I really appreciate it. It was obvious to me from the start that these were separate clips, possibly out of sequence, and that the anti-jihad morons were jumping to unwarranted conclusions... again.

Reminds me of when the wingnuts "analyze the pixels" in a JPEG image.

32 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 4:24:49pm

re: #16 Charles Johnson

CL: check out the way I inserted a blank line after the H6 subheadings... when you do that the subheading's bottom margin is decreased so it sits closer to the paragraph it belongs with.

Ohhhhhh, okay. I noticed they looked different, much better. I'll remember that, thx.

33 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 4:24:51pm

re: #30 ProGunLiberal

Okay, I admit to being over the top on the accusation. And for that, I apologize.

Just stop making goddamn wild accusations and crapping all over other people. I seriously don't get it. I mean, in the thread with Alouette, you must have seen my response to her right there, and yet you go ahead and blatantly lied and said there was no sympathy being shown for Palestinian casualties. Why lie? I just don't fucking get it.

34 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 4:25:43pm

I have spent a lot of time thinking about Hamas, and I have come to the conclusion that they are nothing but a gang of criminal warlords. Everything they do is aimed at eliminating all competition for their criminal activities. They are no different than the warlords who run Somalia.

Why did Hamas wait to launch rockets at Israel until after the Israelis removed all the settlements and evacuated all the Jews from the Gaza communities? What do they gain from that action?

The reason: Hamas WANTS the blockade. This way they can control all the commerce in Gaza coming through their smuggling tunnels. Why did they kidnap Gilad Shalit? For the same reason that criminals kidnap victims: for the ransom (which for Hamas was getting their members out of jail, no benefit to the regular citizens of Gaza.)

35 researchok  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 4:32:32pm

Two things:

There is enough to criticize Hamas without having to resort to questionable videos.

There is no need to find videos or audio recordings posted by Israelis or westerners. They are broadcast incessantly by very evil people whose only concern is power as manifested by corruption and violence (extra judiciary murders of Palestinians by Hamas and Jihad have reached unprecedented proportions).

Secondly, lets be perfectly frank here- Hamas has repeatedly emphasized they will never recognize Israel, will never enter into peace negotiations (other than to negotiate a 'ceasefire') and sponsors and promotes some of the most vile racism, bigotry and calls to genocide on the face of the planet.

This is not an excoriation of Islam, Arabs or the Palestinians. They have been conditioned to hate by some of the most dysfunctional leaders of the modern era.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: The biggest victims of Hamas and other dysfunctional Arab regimes are the Arab peoples themselves.

36 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 4:37:52pm

re: #33 Obdicut

It's not so much lying as venting.

re: #34 Vicious Babushka

No, they are like the Sauds. For me, calling them a mafia is too nice. Most of these fanatical groups act this way. They want absolute power over others, and are willing to do anything to get it.

There are 2 hearts of the Islamist Hydra. Iran and Saudi Arabia. Iran is the weaker of the 2 hearts in stability, squeeze them more, and a heart attack should occur.

Unfortunately, we are support the attacks of moderates, Christians, and Jews in the Middle East by supporting Saudi Arabia. And the other gulf states aren't much better, with the possible exception of Oman and its Sultan Qaboos.

37 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 4:39:15pm

re: #36 ProGunLiberal

It's not so much lying as venting.

re: #34 Vicious Babushka

No, they are like the Sauds. For me, calling them a mafia is too nice. Most of these fanatical groups act this way. They want absolute power over others, and are willing to do anything to get it.

Their 2 hearts of the Islamist Hydra. Iran and Saudi Arabia. Iran is the weaker of the 2 hearts in stability, squeeze them more, and a heart attack should occur.

Unfortunately, we are support the attacks of moderates, Christians, and Jews in the Middle East by supporting Saudi Arabia. And the other gulf states aren't much better, with the possible exception of Oman and its Sultan Qaboos.

The Saud family were just a clan of caravan robbers before the British gifted them with a kingdom of their very own to rule over.

38 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 4:41:15pm

re: #37 Vicious Babushka

That is too good for them.

Let's be more to the point. The Saudi Royal family are a bunch of Genocidal Monsters, akin to the Nazis. Look what they did to various peoples in the region from ~1800 to 1820.

Fortunately, the Ottomans put a justified end to it. With justified brutality.

39 Buck  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 4:55:27pm

I don't see how the sequence of the 'injured' man in the tan jacket could be out of sequence.

The attack they are all running around and dealing with took place before the camera man was taking video. There is no attack taking place while he is filming, or we would see some of that.

If there is no attack taking place during the filming, then what could have injured the man between the shot of him walking around uninjured, and when he is being lifted and being taken to, what looks like an ambulance?

Are we to believe that bombs are dropping while the BBC Cameraman is filming? Wouldn't we see a lot more injuries, and a lot more devastation?

No, there is no violence taking place. The entire sequence might be after a violent event, but we can't even see that.

I put it to you that the video of this man cannot be out of sequence. There is no event to explain why he is suddenly injured after he is seen standing with no injuries.

40 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 4:59:14pm

re: #36 ProGunLiberal

It's not so much lying as venting.
.

When you claim something you know isn't true, it's lying. You may have lied in order to vent. It's still a lie.

41 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 5:13:20pm

re: #39 Buck

You don't know what you're talking about.

42 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 5:14:41pm

To be credible when debunking a real case of a faked injury, it's important not to jump to conclusions and yell "FAKE" when it's not conclusive. The people promoting this "Pallywood" story have no credibility -- they threw it away long ago.

43 Buck  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 5:21:52pm

re: #41 Charles Johnson

You don't know what you're talking about.

Well, that certainly convinced me....

Actually I do know what I am talking about, and I make a logical and simple argument.

If you want to refute my point and supply a reason why it is wrong, please do.

However the "You're an idiot" response is really beneath you.

44 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 5:24:32pm

re: #43 Buck

You didn't watch any of the videos or look at any of the stills, and you clearly haven't paid attention to the analysis. It's obvious. And I already know what a waste of time it is trying to argue coherently with you.

45 researchok  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 5:35:13pm

re: #43 Buck

You're wrong.

There is a plethora of Pallywood productions to point to.

These aren't any of them.

46 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 5:45:34pm

re: #39 Buck

I don't see how the sequence of the 'injured' man in the tan jacket could be out of sequence.

The attack they are all running around and dealing with took place before the camera man was taking video.

You know this how?

Another ridiculous, utterly unsupported raw assertion.

47 Buck  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 5:53:25pm

re: #46 goddamnedfrank

You know this how?

Another ridiculous, utterly unsupported raw assertion.

Because you can see the glow of the fire in each of the scenes. There is no attack taking place while he is filming, or we would see some of that.

There are no bombs dropping while the camera is filming. There is no reason to think that Israel is bombing civilians while the video is filming. That would be a much bigger story.

Logically, I say again, even if the shots of tan jacket guy are out of sequence, there is no event (caused by Israel) that injures him while the video is being shot.

48 Kragar  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 5:55:38pm

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49 Stanghazi  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 5:55:55pm
You know what? If the cynics & haters out there want to sneer in contempt at every photo & film clip and believe the worst about people just because they’re Palestinian Arabs, then they can kiss my ass because there’s a word for that—bigotry.

The MINUTE I read "Pallywood" it was classified as a hater.

CL, you are awesome and we have your back, and the push back to propaganda.

50 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 5:57:47pm

re: #47 Buck

There is no reason to think that Israelis bombing civilians while the video is filming.

Not a single person made that claim.

there is no event (caused by Israel) that injures him while the video is being shot

Nobody made that claim, either.

51 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 5:58:11pm

Interesting, I'll agree with inconclusive but I'm still leaning towards fake given the history of Palestinian stringers faking footage. There don't appear to be many injuries on the scene and it's fairly common for rescuers and journalists to dramatize the scene to make the trip worth while.

52 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:01:47pm

CNN has found the footage questionable enough to stop running it

Statement about Gaza images CNN aired

The video we aired came from the news agency Reuters and their feed to us did not include the image of the man standing.

We asked Reuters about it today.

They said they don’t know the source of the image of that man standing or when that image was shot.

They also said that they never saw or shot any similar image.

The bottom line is we cannot independently verify when the image of the man standing was taken.

There you see it at the bottom of your screen, whether it was taken before or after the other image was taken of the man being dragged away.

We obviously will not be using either of these images again.

This is not only a traditional military conflict but one that’s being waged in the media as well, and our only goal, as always, is to report the truth, the facts on all fronts and that’s why we’ve sent so many of our own reporters and producers into the field.

I think the video originated with BBC. It seems somewhere along the line Reuters picked it up and the portion of the video showing the man uninjured went missing. CNN made the right choice to not air the clip anymore.

53 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:02:49pm

re: #52 Killgore Trout

CNN has found the footage questionable enough to stop running it

Statement about Gaza images CNN aired

I think the video originated with BBC. It seems somewhere along the line Reuters picked it up and the portion of the video showing the man uninjured went missing. CNN made the right choice to not air the clip anymore.

...and it's not like Reuters editors are above helping the cause when they can.

54 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:03:51pm

re: #47 Buck

Logically, I say again, even if the shots of tan jacket guy are out of sequence, there is no event (caused by Israel) that injures him while the video is being shot.

And this leads you to a categorical denial of even the possibility that the video was edited? That's confirmation bias not logic at play. Your assumption doesn't line up with reality. The cameraman could have been pointing the camera elsewhere when the guy was injured. He could have temporarily switched the camera off to save battery life and storage. The camera, if shocked or dropped may have reset itself. There are way too many plausible explanations to take your absolute statement declaring the impossibility of editing at face value.

55 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:05:02pm

re: #52 Killgore Trout

No, CNN stopped running it because they're fairly gutless when it comes to stuff like this.

The footage is questionable and that's all they needed to stop running it. And it's questionable solely because extreme right wing blogs have made it seem questionable.

56 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:05:45pm

re: #51 Killgore Trout

Interesting, I'll agree with inconclusive but I'm still leaning towards fake...

Imagine my surprise.

57 researchok  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:07:22pm

As noted earlier, there are enough examples of Pallywood productions.

No need to point to anything which might be questionable.

58 celticdragon  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:07:38pm

re: #14 Vicious Babushka

I guess you missed that part where, just before I posted that comment, I had just learned that some personal friends of my son and daughter-in-law were murdered by a Hamas rocket in Kiryat Malachi.

Damn.

I am so sorry. My thoughts go with you are your family, and those of your friends :(

59 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:10:21pm

What we have here is a series of disconnected scenes. We don't even know that the same cameraman shot all of the scenes. They were edited together, but as CNN says in their statement there's no way to verify the chronological order.

It makes my head hurt when people see a video like this and just assume that because one scene follows another, they were shot in that order.

60 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:11:07pm

re: #56 Charles Johnson

Imagine my surprise.

Don't clutch those pearls too tight, they might turn into diamonds.

61 researchok  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:11:21pm

re: #59 Charles Johnson

I blame public schools.
//

62 Buck  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:11:26pm

re: #54 goddamnedfrank

leads you to a categorical denial of even the possibility that the video was edited?

Actually that is not what I am saying. I know it was edited.

I am very clear about what I am saying. No where do I even use the word edited.

63 TedStriker  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:12:03pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

Don't clutch those pearls too tight, they might turn into diamonds.

My god, you're an ass...

64 prairiefire  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:12:29pm

re: #14 Vicious Babushka

I am so sorry, Alouette.

65 celticdragon  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:13:20pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

Don't clutch those pearls too tight, they might turn into diamonds.

KT, that was not cool.

Also, just as a technical matter, pearls are calcium carbonate...specifically a form called aragonite. Heat and pressure would produce marble. FYI.

66 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:13:35pm

re: #14 Vicious Babushka

I guess you missed that part where, just before I posted that comment, I had just learned that some personal friends of my son and daughter-in-law were murdered by a Hamas rocket in Kiryat Malachi.

Missed this earlier, but my deepest sympathies. That's awful.

67 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:13:52pm

Time to kick back and watch the fuse slowly crawling down toward the powder keg.

68 Stanghazi  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:14:52pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

Don't clutch those pearls too tight, they might turn into diamonds.

No resting on your fake laurels anymore.

69 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:15:08pm

re: #43 Buck

Well, that certainly convinced me....

Actually I do know what I am talking about, and I make a logical and simple argument.

If you want to refute my point and supply a reason why it is wrong, please do.

However the "You're an idiot" response is really beneath you.

You're an ignorant partisan hack who completely rejects reality. Therefore, you argumentum al scruplulum is invalid.

70 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:15:37pm

re: #56 Charles Johnson

Imagine my surprise.

I'm willing to accept that some of this was staged yet still find it irrelevant. The efforts to spread this video as another Pallywood stunt is an effort to minimize the hardship and suffering by the Gazans during this operation. So was some of this acting? Maybe. That still doesn't affect my position.

71 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:16:42pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

Don't clutch those pearls too tight, they might turn into diamonds.

Hypocrite.

72 celticdragon  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:16:44pm

I am not in the mood for this tonight. See you lizards tomorrow.

KT...get some fresh air and catch a movie. Wreck It Ralph is funny as hell, and will not produce wasteful arguments with other folks.

Get out of the house and go do something.

73 Stanghazi  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:17:05pm

re: #70 Gus

PALLYWOOD was the first fucking clue.

74 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:17:18pm

re: #68 Stanghazi

re: #63 Ben G. Hazi

Funny how the guys who change their nics to make a joke out of the death of American diplomats are the most offended.

75 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:18:09pm

re: #70 Gus

I'm willing to accept that some of this was staged yet still find it irrelevant. The efforts to spread this video as another Pallywood stunt is an effort to minimize the hardship and suffering by the Gazans during this operation. So was some of this acting? Maybe. That still doesn't affect my position.

Pretty much.

Palestinians fake stuff, they lie, therefore they suck and they're bad so support Israel.

76 researchok  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:18:34pm

re: #70 Gus

Nowadays, everything is a zero sum game.

77 efuseakay  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:18:51pm
78 TedStriker  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:19:17pm

re: #74 Killgore Trout

re: #63 Ben G. Hazi

Funny how the guys who change their nics to make a joke out of the death of American diplomats are the most offended.

No jokes here, aside from mocking the RWNJs who have been trying to drum up another Watergate for political expediency.

And you're still acting like an ass.

79 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:19:24pm

re: #75 Kronocide

Pretty much.

Palestinians fake stuff, they lie, therefore they suck and they're bad so support Israel.

Or worse, hate Palestinians. I think the rape analogy applies.

80 celticdragon  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:19:38pm

re: #74 Killgore Trout

re: #63 Ben G. Hazi

Funny how the guys who change their nics to make a joke out of the death of American diplomats are the most offended.

Christ on a crutch, KT...you are better then this! Nobody is joking about the deaths! They are mocking GOP assholes who are making hay out of it!

Fuck it. Do what you want. I tried to give you a suggestion. Bye.

81 researchok  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:19:46pm

re: #77 efuseakay

Toupee hair in the soup?
/

82 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:20:10pm

re: #81 researchok

lol

83 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:20:19pm

re: #70 Gus

I agree - I accept that it may have been staged too. There's simply no way to make a definitive judgment from these disconnected, edited-together video clips, but I can easily imagine scenarios where it was NOT staged, as well. Tan jacket guy might have tripped and fell and stunned himself. Or he might have been acting for the camera - it wouldn't be the first time.

But CL makes a really good case, if you actually follow the post all the way through, that the clips are not in chronological sequence. I lean toward "not fake" on this one.

84 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:21:21pm

re: #74 Killgore Trout

re: #63 Ben G. Hazi

Funny how the guys who change their nics to make a joke out of the death of American diplomats are the most offended.

Wow, disingenuous to put it lightly. We changed our names to mock the incessant scandal whores and pearl clutchers exploiting the death of said diplomats to agitate against Obama.

85 Stanghazi  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:22:32pm

re: #74 Killgore Trout

re: #63 Ben G. Hazi

Funny how the guys who change their nics to make a joke out of the death of American diplomats are the most offended.

You are a freak who has completely wasted your time here, since you cheered the pepper spraying of the student.

Sly, always just below the flounce.

You give nothing to this blog but the troll distraction.

Every fucking day

86 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:22:32pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

Don't clutch those pearls too tight, they might turn into diamonds.

Downding for the insulting, trollish comment. You know better than that!

87 Political Atheist  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:22:52pm

CL put it very well. No firm conclusion. When I saw this Page earlier today, I read through and looked at the graphics and thought for a minute. So I thought about what footage might look like if I was the guy there. If I want to think in terms of "trail of evidence" I would hit the record button on my camera and leave it on until all was over or the memory card got full.

But that's not on the ground reality. I'm going to be on that button as I need to to move, stay safe, or just actually meddle with the camera to deal with light, speed, aperture, ISO... Footage is going to often be a bit of a jumble.

Trying to be brief and not belabor a point but we have to set assumptions aside, period. That's not easy for anyone who actually cares much about anyone involved.

88 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:22:54pm

re: #83 Charles Johnson

I agree - I accept that it may have been staged too. There's simply no way to tell from these disconnected, edited-together video clips, but I can easily imagine scenarios where it was NOT staged, as well. Tan jacket guy might have tripped and fell and stunned himself. Or he might have been acting for the camera - it wouldn't be the first time.

But CL makes a really good case, if you actually follow the post all the way through, that the clips are not in chronological sequence. I lean toward "not fake" on this one.

Could have been smoke inhalation. Could have been practicing for all we know. There another part where one of the rescue workers has a fellow rescue worker on his back. He reaches the bus and set the fellow rescue worker down and then the rescue worker that was on his back walks away. Was it staged or where they practicing for what was soon to come? It begins at around 2:20 here. Still doesn't affect my objection to this whole mess.

89 RadicalModerate  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:23:22pm

re: #74 Killgore Trout

If you can't tell the difference between their mocking the pearl-clutching response of the rightwingers who are manufacturing facts on a minute-by-minute basis, and those of us who see the situation in Libya as the tragedy that it was, then you truly have a tenuous grip on reality.

90 efuseakay  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:24:24pm

re: #39 Buck

I don't see how the sequence of the 'injured' man in the tan jacket could be out of sequence.

The attack they are all running around and dealing with took place before the camera man was taking video. There is no attack taking place while he is filming, or we would see some of that.

If there is no attack taking place during the filming, then what could have injured the man between the shot of him walking around uninjured, and when he is being lifted and being taken to, what looks like an ambulance?

Are we to believe that bombs are dropping while the BBC Cameraman is filming? Wouldn't we see a lot more injuries, and a lot more devastation?

No, there is no violence taking place. The entire sequence might be after a violent event, but we can't even see that.

I put it to you that the video of this man cannot be out of sequence. There is no event to explain why he is suddenly injured after he is seen standing with no injuries.

I know why he seems injured. He just read your post.

91 Bubblehead II  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:24:42pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

KT, Are you trying to commit virtual suicide? Because you have been acting in a very irrational way since OWS.

Edited the misspelling was unintentional.

92 Buck  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:24:53pm

re: #69 Kronocide

partisan? I am not making an partisan argument. This isn't political. Is it?

93 researchok  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:25:13pm

re: #88 Gus

Rational argument doesn't play well when it comes to talking about the ME.

94 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:25:34pm
95 researchok  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:26:04pm

re: #92 Buck

Do you want the bulls eye Tshirt off my back?

/

96 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:26:19pm

re: #94 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too

Thank you.

97 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:26:54pm

re: #92 Buck

partisan? I am not making an partisan argument. This isn't political. Is it?

I think it is. Don't be coy. If not partisan, ideological.

98 Buck  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:27:49pm

re: #95 researchok

Do you want the bulls eye Tshirt off my back?

/

I have my own, thank you.

99 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:28:26pm

re: #96 PhillyPretzel

Thank you.

I consider it my job to inject a little bit of levity into situations that are rapidly spiraling out of control. Too bad my co-workers don't take it nearly as well as the Lizardim do.

100 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:28:39pm

re: #93 researchok

Rational argument doesn't play well when it comes to talking about the ME.

I'm not always rational. ;)

101 researchok  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:28:56pm

re: #100 Gus

LOLOL

102 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:29:13pm

re: #98 Buck

I have my own, thank you.

Your bullseye should be a pretzel.

103 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:29:21pm

re: #74 Killgore Trout

re: #63 Ben G. Hazi

Funny how the guys who change their nics to make a joke out of the death of American diplomats are the most offended.

Killgore, you really should log off for a bit. I've seen the Butthurt Fandango you're doing danced many a time, and it never ends well.

104 Stanghazi  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:29:53pm

KT wants attention, badly. This blog is it.

He's been an Ass Hole for 1.5 years now. He NEVER does the research anymore, that, eh, made him "respectable."

Now it's "I didn't follow up on that, or I don't vote"

Really LGF

I am so sick of the fucking every day thread thread jack that disrupts the intelligent conversation. On purpose.

105 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:31:36pm

Sometimes in life, you have to just suck it up, admit you're wrong, learn the lessons if you can, and get on with living.

It's not easy, and I speak from experience.

106 TedStriker  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:31:51pm

re: #77 efuseakay

OT Trump Steakhouse Vegas fails inspection

Cripes...talk about a dining disaster in waiting.

Breakdowns in food handling and storage procedures like that points to a lack of competent management; ironic that it's a Trump enterprise we're talking about, right?

107 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:32:18pm

It's a bit like...

Hurr, hurr, the Palestinians were caught pulling another Pallywood stunt. Hurr, hurr, fuck them they're a bunch of losers. No one is getting hurt. Derpity, derp, Pallywood.

108 researchok  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:33:30pm

re: #106 Ben G. Hazi

Someone ordered the etoupee instead of the gumbo.

It happens.

109 OhNoZombies!  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:34:09pm

re: #74 Killgore Trout

re: #63 Ben G. Hazi

Funny how the guys who change their nics to make a joke out of the death of American diplomats are the most offended.

What the fuck ever.

110 RadicalModerate  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:34:15pm

There's a reason that I don't engage too heavily in political discussions when it involves Israeli relations with its neighbors. It is one of those areas where entirely too many people get so firmly entrenched on an ideology that they fall into the trap of ignoring facts that might challenge those beliefs. This isn't an indictment of either side specifically, because both engage in it much, much too often.

111 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:34:16pm

re: #104 Stanghazi

KT wants attention, badly. This blog is it.

He's been an Ass Hole for 1.5 years now. He NEVER does the research anymore, that, eh, made him "respectable."

Now it's "I didn't follow up on that, or I don't vote"

Really LGF

I am so sick of the fucking every day thread thread jack that disrupts the intelligent conversation. On purpose.

I think killgore does, or at can, still have value here on LGF. But the way he treating these Middle East matters is to use their ambiguities to facilitate "just asking questions" trolling.

Killgore, please return to presenting ideas and supporting them. Trolling just to get a reaction is obnoxious.

112 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:34:37pm

To throw in my $.02 on the topic at hand; I have no love of the people commonly referred to as Palestinians, this most of you know. I am deeply skeptical of everything that comes out of Gaza or the West Bank. But that doesn't mean that I should automatically assume that it's all fake, either. In this case, we just don't have enough data to tell either way, so - why argue about it? The facts on the ground don't change. War is horrible, people are dying on both sides, and we should be critical of that. We can nitpick over fauxtography and "Pallywood" when there's enough evidence to do so.

113 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:34:43pm
114 efuseakay  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:34:45pm

re: #106 Ben G. Hazi

Cripes...talk about a dining disaster in waiting.

Breakdowns in food handling and storage procedures like that points to a lack of competent management; ironic that is a Trump enterprise we're talking about, right?

Caviar is like wine, right? The older it gets, the better... ???

115 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:36:23pm

re: #74 Killgore Trout

re: #63 Ben G. Hazi

Funny how the guys who change their nics to make a joke out of the death of American diplomats are the most offended.

Uh, I'm a bit late here but they weren't changing nics "to make a joke out of the death of American diplomats." The mocking was of the Republican politicians who are obsessed with Benghazi. If anyone is making a mockery of those deaths it might just be some of those clowns like Lindsey Graham and John McCain.

116 Kragar  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:38:00pm

re: #113 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Since when have facts ever stopped wingnuts from running with a story?

117 Stanghazi  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:38:12pm

re: #111 Dark_Falcon

I think killgore does, or at can, still have value here on LGF. But the way he treating these Middle East matters is to use their ambiguities to facilitate "just asking questions" trolling.

Killgore, please return to presenting ideas and supporting them. Trolling just to get a reaction is obnoxious.

Dream on weaver.

118 Talking Point Detective  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:38:40pm

Not on topic to the main point of your post - but w/r/t this statement:

I want to make a point by illustrating just how easily our eyes can be deceived, by both our personal biases & preconceived notions and by the speed at which visual information flies by, causing us to miss many subtle details.

This video offers a window into how what we see can trick our brains - The McGurk effect:

119 RadicalModerate  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:38:47pm

re: #113 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

You mean that you're actually going to direct your newspapers and FoxNews to state that the White House accounting was correct all along, and people in your employ have been blowing things all out of proportion over manufactured "facts" and ill-informed opinions?

That's mighty of magnanimous of you, Rupert.

120 Kragar  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:39:26pm

re: #115 Gus

Uh, I'm a bit late here but they weren't changing nics "to make a joke out of the death of American diplomats." The mocking was of the Republican politicians who are obsessed with Benghazi. If anyone is making a mockery of those deaths it might just be some of those clowns like Lindsey Graham and John McCain.

Specifically...

Scarborough repeatedly shouts ‘Benghazi!’ to block voter suppression talk

121 Stanghazi  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:39:33pm

re: #115 Gus

Uh, I'm a bit late here but they weren't changing nics "to make a joke out of the death of American diplomats." The mocking was of the Republican politicians who are obsessed with Benghazi. If anyone is making a mockery of those deaths it might just be some of those clowns like Lindsey Graham and John McCain.

Remember, they supported Mandy's Calvin pissing on Islam.

Oh pearl clutchers!

122 Interesting Times  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:39:50pm

re: #115 Gus

On a happier note, check out the picture I posted in the last thread (take note especially of the blonde woman with glasses and a pink shirt in the green square - baby steps ;) )

123 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:40:57pm

re: #112 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too

To throw in my $.02 on the topic at hand; I have no love of the people commonly referred to as Palestinians, this most of you know. I am deeply skeptical of everything that comes out of Gaza or the West Bank. But that doesn't mean that I should automatically assume that it's all fake, either. In this case, we just don't have enough data to tell either way, so - why argue about it? The facts on the ground don't change. War is horrible, people are dying on both sides, and we should be critical of that. We can nitpick over fauxtography and "Pallywood" when there's enough evidence to do so.

Agreed. It's suspicious enough that I think responsible news networks are correct in choosing not to run the footage but not courageously obvious a fake to get worked up if people think it might be real.

124 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:41:58pm
125 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:42:57pm

This whole debate is just so emotionally charged. I'm surprised I've stuck around this long in the thread. Maybe I should go back to looking at cat pictures.

126 Buck  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:44:08pm

I sincerely hope this is not considered a "right wing" / "left wing" issue.

I think of this as a support for Israel issue. Nothing more.

127 Obdicut  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:45:10pm

re: #126 Buck

Wait, you think if someone doesn't think this a fake, they don't support Israel?

128 Charles Johnson  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:46:25pm

re: #126 Buck

I sincerely hope this is not considered a "right wing" / "left wing" issue.

I think of this as a support for Israel issue. Nothing more.

The best way to support Israel is to stand for the truth. You're not supporting Israel when you promote highly questionable accusations of faked injuries.

129 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:46:42pm

re: #126 Buck

I sincerely hope this is not considered a "right wing" / "left wing" issue.

I think of this as a support for Israel issue. Nothing more.

I don't. That's like saying just because you didn't support the Iraq war you weren't supporting the USA. I realize that this is a bigger issue with Palestine and Israel.

130 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:47:36pm

Being pro-Israel doesn't mean dehumanizing Palestinians.

Being pro-Palestinian doesn't mean supporting criminal warlords like Hamas.

Unfortunately people do not seem to understand this.

131 Buck  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:47:43pm

re: #127 Obdicut

Wait, you think if someone doesn't think this a fake, they don't support Israel?

Oh no.

No more that someone who thinks it is fake is a right wing ideologue.

132 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:47:55pm

re: #124 Vicious Babushka

133 Bubblehead II  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:47:57pm

re: #125 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too

This whole debate is just so emotionally charged. I'm surprised I've stuck around this long in the thread. Maybe I should go back to looking at cat pictures.

Sky Diving Cats.

134 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:48:32pm

Egypt should annex Gaza.

135 Buck  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:49:22pm

re: #128 Charles Johnson

The best way to support Israel is to stand for the truth. You're not supporting Israel when you promote highly questionable accusations of faked injuries.

Agreed.

Then why bring politics into it.

136 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:50:20pm
137 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:51:09pm

re: #134 Gus

Egypt should annex Gaza.

Israel tried that when they were pulling out. Egyptians wanted no part of it at the time, probably not anymore interested today.

138 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:51:29pm

re: #136 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too

That is so cute.

139 RadicalModerate  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:51:46pm

re: #126 Buck

I sincerely hope this is not considered a "right wing" / "left wing" issue.

I think of this as a support for Israel issue. Nothing more.

Calling someone out for making what evidence suggests may be a false claim by some rather vocal Islamophobes, and the possibility that there are people in Israel who might have fallen for it, is not... and I repeat NOT an indictment of Israel whatsoever, but for those individuals who have no problem whatsoever spreading disinformation for their own bigoted purposes.

140 Petero1818  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:51:48pm

re: #128 Charles Johnson

The best way to support Israel is to stand for the truth. You're not supporting Israel when you promote highly questionable accusations of faked injuries.

To me this is quite simple. Is the video faked? I dont know and neither does anyone else until we see time stamped raw footage.
Have Palestinians faked videos before to make Israel look bad? Absolutely.
Are civillians being injured and killed in Gaza? Absolutely.
Either explanation is plausible. Arguing about it seems futile unless someone comes up with the raw footage.
I have trouble with anyone who takes an absolute position on this story.

141 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:51:50pm

re: #137 Killgore Trout

Israel tried that when they were pulling out. Egyptians wanted no part of it at the time, probably not anymore interested today.

It's hopeless.

142 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:52:46pm

I'm glad for the Iron Dome.

143 Bubblehead II  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:53:03pm

re: #134 Gus

Egypt should annex Gaza.

Yeah, right. And I am going to win tonight's Power Ball Drawing.

///// X10

144 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:53:45pm

re: #143 Bubblehead II

Yeah, right. And I am going to win tonight's Power Ball Drawing.

///// X10

I want to see Israelis and Palestinians singing together.

145 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:53:49pm

re: #141 Gus

It's hopeless.

That's the spirit!
/+1

146 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:53:56pm

re: #138 PhillyPretzel

That is so cute.

It's a heck of a lot better than getting emotionally invested in the argument raging all around me.

147 TedStriker  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:53:56pm

re: #126 Buck

Really, dude?

WTF?!?

148 Petero1818  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:54:41pm

re: #134 Gus

Egypt should annex Gaza.

Because it was so successful the first time they did it.

149 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:54:49pm

re: #145 Killgore Trout

That's the spirit!
/+1

Hey, I've been thinking about death since I was 6 years old. Not all the time. But I realize the futility often.

150 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:55:03pm
151 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:55:03pm

re: #148 Petero1818

Because it was so successful the first time they did it.

Fill me in.

152 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:55:20pm

re: #144 Gus

I want to see Israelis and Palestinians singing together.

It's OK to want that, but it'll be a very long time coming.

153 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:56:01pm

re: #152 Dark_Falcon

It's OK to want that, but it'll be a very long time coming.

Some of us are already. It's not a very big group.

154 Petero1818  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:56:16pm

re: #144 Gus

I want to see Israelis and Palestinians singing together.

You know 20 years ago I saw it many times. Things were bad then too. But in those days, academia and the arts maintained close ties btw israel and palestinians. Times have changed.

155 TedStriker  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:56:21pm

re: #114 efuseakay

Caviar is like wine, right? The older it gets, the better... ???

I wonder if someone that would serve caviar that's been opened for a month or more would eat improperly stored and old chicken eggs.

Makes my stomach turn...and I don't even like eggs.

156 Stanghazi  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:56:42pm

re: #150 Vicious Babuhka

I ate half this pie.

Egg nog icecream being dished, now.

157 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:56:52pm

re: #150 Vicious Babushka

I ate half this pie.

I like pie.

158 Petero1818  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:58:31pm

re: #151 Gus

Fill me in.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

159 TedStriker  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:59:11pm

re: #108 researchok

Someone ordered the etoupee instead of the gumbo.

It happens.

*rimshot*

Try the veal and don't forget to tip your waitress!

160 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:59:13pm

re: #154 Petero1818

You know 20 years ago I saw it many times. Things were bad then too. But in those days, academia and the arts maintained close ties btw israel and palestinians. Times have changed.

I actually think that Obama should employ Jimmy Carter to broker another peace agreement. We need another Camp David. Carter spoke out equally in this recent conflict. We need to do something. This should be a goal of humanity along with Syria. We just can't keep doing this.

161 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:59:46pm

re: #151 Gus

Fill me in.

Egypt owned Gaza from 1948 till 1967, when the IDF smashed the 50th (Palestinian) Division of the Egyptian army as part of its swift defeat of the Egyptian forces in the Sinai. Gaza was used as a base for some attacks back in the 60's prior to '67 as well. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

162 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:00:02pm

re: #158 Petero1818

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Right. I meant more like a complete annex. Open border. Gaza Strip becomes a part of Egypt.

163 RadicalModerate  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:00:20pm

re: #156 Stanghazi

Egg nog icecream being dished, now.

Eggnog before Thanksgiving? That just doesn't compute for me for some reason.

164 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:00:35pm

re: #161 Dark_Falcon

Egypt owned Gaza from 1948 till 1967, when the IDF smashed the 50th (Palestinian) Division of the Egyptian army as part of its swift defeat of the Egyptian forces in the Sinai. Gaza was used as a base for some attacks back in the 60's prior to '67 as well. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

I think even Morsi listens to the USA now.

165 TedStriker  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:01:43pm

re: #157 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too

I like pie.

I miss FBV...

166 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:01:47pm

re: #62 Buck

Actually that is not what I am saying. I know it was edited.

I am very clear about what I am saying. No where do I even use the word edited.

No you said it couldn't be out of sequence, which amounts to the same thing as saying it could not have been edited. Which is ridiculous.

I don't see how the sequence of the 'injured' man in the tan jacket could be out of sequence.

...

I put it to you that the video of this man cannot be out of sequence. There is no event to explain why he is suddenly injured after he is seen standing with no injuries.

It's clear that at first you were trying to say that the video wasn't edited, that the events had to have occurred in the exact order presented, that they faked his injury and then, apparently being incompetent, filmed him walking around after.

167 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:01:48pm

re: #160 Gus

I actually think that Obama should employ Jimmy Carter to broker another peace agreement. We need another Camp David. Carter spoke out equally in this recent conflict. We need to do something. This should be a goal of humanity along with Syria. We just can't keep doing this.

Carter's got no more credibility on this issue. He lost his credibility when he called Israeli security policy "apartheid".

168 Petero1818  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:02:05pm

re: #162 Gus

Right. I meant more like a complete annex. Open border. Gaza Strip becomes a part of Egypt.

Gaza was part of Egypt. And the West Bank Part of Jordan. It ended in the 67 war.

169 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:02:30pm

re: #168 Petero1818

Gaza was part of Egypt. And the West Bank Part of Jordan. It ended in the 67 war.

It should go back to Egypt then.

170 Petero1818  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:02:49pm

re: #160 Gus

I actually think that Obama should employ Jimmy Carter to broker another peace agreement. We need another Camp David. Carter spoke out equally in this recent conflict. We need to do something. This should be a goal of humanity along with Syria. We just can't keep doing this.

Carter is not considered an honest broker by Israel.

171 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:02:49pm

re: #134 Gus

Egypt should annex Gaza.

They don't want it.

172 Petero1818  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:03:12pm

re: #169 Gus

It should go back to Egypt then.

Try telling the Palestinians that.

173 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:03:32pm

re: #171 Vicious Babushka

They don't want it.

I know. :(

174 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:03:34pm

Night Lizardim. Don't flame each other too hard - fire-resistant scales are in as short a supply as Twinkies.

175 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:04:10pm

re: #174 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too

Night Lizardim. Don't flame each other too hard - fire-resistant scales are in as short a supply as Twinkies.

I'm not going to flame. I've got my ejection seat ready.

176 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:04:45pm

The Arab world doesn't care about Gaza.

177 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:05:02pm

re: #172 Petero1818

Try telling the Palestinians that.

They telling the Egyptians that. Nobody wants it.

178 TedStriker  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:05:35pm

re: #176 Gus

The Arab world doesn't care about Gaza.

Except as a bludgeon against Israel.

179 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:05:41pm

If the Arab nations had accepted the displaced Palestinians the same way that Israel accepted all the displaced Jews...

But they didn't.

So we are fucked forever.

180 RadicalModerate  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:05:44pm

re: #77 efuseakay

OT Trump Steakhouse Vegas fails inspection

In the story, they cite one of the violations as "expired yogurt".

How could they tell?

181 TedStriker  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:06:21pm

re: #180 RadicalModerate

In the story, they cite one of the violations as "expired yogurt".

How could they tell?

The date code on the container?

Of course, it could have just been ex-yogurt...

/

182 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:06:45pm

re: #176 Gus

The Arab world doesn't care about Gaza.

The biggest proof of that is the Iranians have been sending them useless missiles to boost their confidence into launching suicidal attacks. It really is insane.

183 Petero1818  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:07:57pm

re: #177 Killgore Trout

They telling the Egyptians that. Nobody wants it.

It has been nothing but trouble. It almost brought ruin to Egypt and completely destabilized Jordan before the King slaughtered more Palestinians in a month than Israel has in 50 years. The Palestinians want it, and they have it (subject to embargo). They haven't done much with it and my guess is its going to have a serious infrastructure downgrade in the next couple of weeks.

184 efuseakay  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:09:09pm

re: #180 RadicalModerate

In the story, they cite one of the violations as "expired yogurt".

How could they tell?

The Donald was using it as glue for his piece.

185 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:09:35pm

OK, swap the west bank for a portion of southern Israel. USA helps with expenses. Then the Jerusalem question comes into play.

Need. More. Booze.

186 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:10:40pm

The USA can also start accepting Palestinian refugees. That's another possibility.

187 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:11:53pm

While everyone's attention was on Gaza, 136 people were killed today in Syria.

188 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:12:06pm

Option A. Gaza gets rid of Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Quds...

189 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:12:17pm

re: #186 Gus

The USA can also start accepting Palestinian refugees. That's another possibility.

When lumps of iron float. Allowing in people who have been subjected to systematic propaganda against us would be a very bad idea.

190 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:12:34pm

Dear Hamas,

Stop firing rockets assholes.

Thanks,

Gus

191 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:12:47pm

re: #185 Gus

OK, swap the west bank for a portion of southern Israel. USA helps with expenses. Then the Jerusalem question comes into play.

Need. More. Booze.

There was briefly some talk last month about Israel annexing the West Bank and letting Gaza secede. Some complicated issues involved but not as impossible as it might seem.

192 Petero1818  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:13:02pm

re: #187 Vicious Babushka

While everyone's attention was on Gaza, 136 people were killed today in Syria.

yes but to be fair they weren't killed by Jews so most of the world is not too fussed.///

193 A Sockpuppet's Sockpuppet  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:13:50pm

Yes, you are amazing.

194 Petero1818  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:13:54pm

re: #191 Killgore Trout

There was briefly some talk last month about Israel annexing the West Bank and letting Gaza secede. Some complicated issues involved but not as impossible as it might seem.

actually completely impossible.

195 Gus  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:16:04pm

re: #191 Killgore Trout

There was briefly some talk last month about Israel annexing the West Bank and letting Gaza secede. Some complicated issues involved but not as impossible as it might seem.

I would be happy if it was all Israel. Palestinians would become Palestinian-Israelis. Sort of like the American model. Would have to secularize more of the Israeli government but using their government model is about as modern as you can get. It's democratic and rather progressive.

196 Petero1818  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:17:25pm

re: #195 Gus

I would be happy if it was all Israel. Palestinians would become Palestinian-Israelis. Sort of like the American model. Would have to secularize more of the Israeli government but using their government model is about as modern as you can get. It's democratic and rather progressive.

And its demographic suicide for Israel. Other than that it is great./

197 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:17:36pm

re: #191 Killgore Trout

There was briefly some talk last month about Israel annexing the West Bank and letting Gaza secede. Some complicated issues involved but not as impossible as it might seem.

Israel will not annex the West Bank.

The most reasonable plan, which has been endorsed by Obama (as well as Bush and Clinton before him), a Palestinian state is established on some of the West Bank with "mutually agreed land swaps" which means, Israel is allowed to keep major Jewish population centers around Jerusalem while exchanging comparable land area.

The "Right of Return" will be to a Palestinian state, not into Israel.

198 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:18:27pm

re: #195 Gus

I would be happy if it was all Israel. Palestinians would become Palestinian-Israelis. Sort of like the American model. Would have to secularize more of the Israeli government but using their government model is about as modern as you can get. It's democratic and rather progressive.

Israel is not large enough to accommodate that.

199 Killgore Trout  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:18:30pm

re: #194 Petero1818

actually completely impossible.

Not really. They're already pretty much a ward of Israel anyways. It would take some work but it's just as possible as the regular two state solution. They could be granted a certain amount of self governance, probably would not be allowed to vote in Israeli elections. Kind of like a protectorate like Guam or Puerto Rico. It's an offbeat idea but not impossible.

200 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:19:45pm

re: #189 Dark_Falcon

When lumps of iron float.

Lumps of iron float just fine.

201 JAFO  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:20:51pm

re: #190 Gus

Dear Hamas,

Stop firing rockets assholes.

Thanks,

Gus

I've been listening to the ustream link DF had linked earlier. I have the volume up to hear distant stuff. After morning prayers I hear some swoosh sounds, I think they are rockets. Less than 10 minutes later at least 2 loud explosions, very close to the broadcaster. Just heard more swoosh sounds. drones getting closer, hear jets now....

202 freetoken  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:22:07pm

re: #198 Vicious Babushka

Israel is not large enough to accommodate that.

You mean demographically, or geographically?

Frankly, politically integrating all the inhabitants of Gaza and the West Bank into the one and the same political state of Israel (all the physical land would be annexed in to the bigger state) that now exists would so change the demographics of the state of Israel the changes would throw the existing system into chaos.

Is that not what everyone fears?

203 Petero1818  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:23:14pm

re: #199 Killgore Trout

Not really. They're already pretty much a ward of Israel anyways. It would take some work but it's just as possible as the regular two state solution. They could be granted a certain amount of self governance, probably would be allowed to vote in Israeli elections. Kind of like a protectorate like Guam or Puerto Rico. It's an offbeat idea but not impossible.

The annexation of the West Bank could not happen. Israel is in the midst of an existential demographic conundrum. The solution for which can only be a two state solution or no solution at all. That is the big problem.4 scenarios are possible. 1) status quo 2) 2 state solution (based loosely on Geneva Accord), 3)one state (and apartheid), or 4) one state that is no longer a Jewish state. Those are the options.

204 Buck  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:24:15pm

re: #160 Gus

I actually think that Obama should employ Jimmy Carter to broker another peace agreement. We need another Camp David. Carter spoke out equally in this recent conflict. We need to do something. This should be a goal of humanity along with Syria. We just can't keep doing this.

I hope you just forgot the sarcasm tag.

205 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:24:23pm

re: #202 freetoken

You mean demographically, or geographically?

Frankly, politically integrating all the inhabitants of Gaza and the West Bank into the one and the same political state of Israel (all the physical land would be annexed in to the bigger state) that now exists would so change the demographics of the state of Israel the changes would throw the existing system into chaos.

Is that not what everyone fears?

What the "One State Solution" means is that Israel will be overwhelmed by the Arab population.

Now, if you include Jordan as part of the "One State", you would have a large enough geographic area to accommodate both populations.

206 Petero1818  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:24:31pm

re: #202 freetoken

You mean demographically, or geographically?

Frankly, politically integrating all the inhabitants of Gaza and the West Bank into the one and the same political state of Israel (all the physical land would be annexed in to the bigger state) that now exists would so change the demographics of the state of Israel the changes would throw the existing system into chaos.

Is that not what everyone fears?

Correct

207 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:24:55pm

re: #200 goddamnedfrank

It actually refers to the founding of the Delian League in Ancient Greece. At it founding ceremony, lumps of iron were thrown into the sea, and it was pledged that the alliance would last till the iron floated up from the bottom of the sea. Hence the expression "when iron floats" which i amended reduce the chances of wisecracks.

208 Petero1818  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:27:31pm

re: #205 Vicious Babushka

What the "One State Solution" means is that Israel will be overwhelmed by the Arab population.

Now, if you include Jordan as part of the "One State", you would have a large enough geographic area to accommodate both populations.

But it would do nothing to address the demographics that would destroy the Jewish character of Israel.

209 TedStriker  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:28:27pm

re: #204 Buck

I hope you just forgot the sarcasm tag.

Oh, that's right...according to RWNJs, Carter's a raging anti-Semite.

I sure as hell don't agree with everything he's done or said since leaving office, but the Camp David Accords were one of the few things he did right while he was President.

210 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:28:37pm

re: #207 Dark_Falcon

It actually refers to the founding of the Delian League in Ancient Greece. At it founding ceremony, lumps of iron were thrown into the sea, and it was pledged that the alliance would last till the iron floated up from the bottom of the sea. Hence the expression "when iron floats" which i amended reduce the chances of wisecracks.

Iron floats.

211 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:29:36pm

re: #208 Petero1818

But it would do nothing to address the demographics that would destroy the Jewish character of Israel.

Those who endorse "One State Solution" are hoping for the demise of a Jewish state.

212 TedStriker  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:29:44pm

re: #210 Vicious Babushka

Iron floats.

Iron, steel...whatever!

/Mel Brooks

213 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:30:13pm

re: #207 Dark_Falcon

It actually refers to the founding of the Delian League in Ancient Greece. At it founding ceremony, lumps of iron were thrown into the sea, and it was pledged that the alliance would last till the iron floated up from the bottom of the sea. Hence the expression "when iron floats" which i amended reduce the chances of wisecracks.

Odd then that you would use that reference to describe what might be considered the opposite of an alliance, the absolute refusal to accept any refugees.

214 Petero1818  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:30:54pm

re: #209 Ben G. Hazi

Oh, that's right...according to RWNJs, Carter's a raging anti-Semite.

I sure as hell don't agree with everything he's done or said since leaving office, but the Camp David Accords were one of the few things he did right while in office.

There are 2 reasons Camp David worked. Sadat & Begin. Bibi is no Begin, and Mashal no Sadat.

215 TedStriker  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:32:35pm

re: #214 Petero1818

There are 2 reasons Camp David worked. Sadat & Begin. Bibi is no Begin, and Mashal no Sadat.

I agree with you on Bibi. The man seems to be spoiling for a fight...a lot.

Mashal is another thing altogether...

Note: edited because I'm a dumbass.

216 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:33:16pm

re: #215 Ben G. Hazi

Mashal's still somewhat of an unknown quantity, so only time will tell, but I agree with you on Bibi. The man seems to be spoiling for a fight...a lot.

Mashal is a leader of Hamas? That's not unknown.

217 Skandal  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:33:48pm

re: #160 Gus

I actually think that Obama should employ Jimmy Carter to broker another peace agreement. We need another Camp David. Carter spoke out equally in this recent conflict. We need to do something. This should be a goal of humanity along with Syria. We just can't keep doing this.

There's too much mistrust of Carter in Israel (rightly or wrongly) given the positions he's taken in recent years, especially, the Peace not Apartheid book. I think, rather, that Bill Clinton would make the ideal broker. He came by far the closest of anyone to getting a deal at Camp David in 2000. Plus, he spent the final days of his Presidency almost reaching a deal at Taba. It would be such a monumental legacy for him to finally get a deal done.

218 Petero1818  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:34:03pm

re: #211 Vicious Babushka

Those who endorse "One State Solution" are hoping for the demise of a Jewish state.

Generally yes, though I do believe many do so without understanding what it means. For secular western democracies the idea of a multi cultural democratic state is the ideal. So when some suggest one state where everyone can get along they are attempting to employ a model they understand to a situation they don't. Many western educated Palestinians latched onto this 15 years ago when that movement got steam. It finds support amongst many students and liberal democrats.

219 freetoken  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:34:45pm

re: #206 Petero1818

Correct

And thus the official US position of a "two state" solution.

The only problem with that is the proposed second state doesn't seem tractable. Having a nation in two parts couldn't work for Pakistan, and it won't work in for a new Palestine.

So does Gaza become its own nation state? It's such a tiny strip of land, with a lot of people. Yes, Singapore pulls it off, but they are deeply integrated with the surrounding nations as far as trade, with deep connections.

220 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:34:54pm

re: #215 Ben G. Hazi

Mashal's still somewhat of an unknown quantity, so only time will tell, but I agree with you on Bibi. The man seems to be spoiling for a fight...a lot.

It boggles the mind that Bibi was welcomed back into Israeli politics after the shit he pulled on Rabin.

221 lostlakehiker  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:35:12pm

re: #4 ProGunLiberal

And Netanyahu's government is doing what to lessen the deaths in Gaza? Nothing. In fact, let's look at this:

Sorry, he doesn't give a damn about Palestinians. And Israel will remain hard right for the forseeable future.

Israel could have used bigger bombs. They would be more likely to destroy the target, but also more likely to cause civilian casualties.

Consider how things went when armies fought in cities in WW2. In Manila, the U.S. army took about 3000 KIA during the liberation of Manila. The Japanese had about 20 000 KIA during their fight to hold it. And the civilians of Manila? The ones the U.S. was liberating? We didn't want them killed. We wanted them to survive. But there were about 100 000 civilians killed during the battle. Given that the U.S. had more firepower to use, say by a 7 to 1 margin going by the loss ratio between the two armies, most of those would have been due to our bombs and artillery.

And, by the way, the people of Manila, the ones who survived, were not angry with the Americans. They viewed their own casualties as a necessary evil, and less bad than a continued occupation by Japan.

Obviously, the methods by which Israel is waging this war are a far cry from yesteryear. They must be doing something to be careful.

Also, it is Israel's policy to minimize civilian casualties, consistent with accomplishing the mission. This is a longstanding policy, and one that has been observed for decades as administrations come and go. Why think that it is different this time?

222 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:35:51pm

re: #210 Vicious Babushka

Iron floats.

That's why I added "lumps of" to the expression, because its so old that it predates iron and steel ships.

223 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:35:58pm

re: #218 Petero1818

Generally yes, though I do believe many do so without understanding what it means. For secular western democracies the idea of a multi cultural democratic state is the ideal. So when some suggest one state where everyone can get along they are attempting to employ a model they understand to a situation they don't. Many western educated Palestinians latched onto this 15 years ago when that movement got steam. It finds support amongst many students and liberal democrats.

Jews were quite secular and integrated in Europe during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Then something happened in history that caused them to want to have their own state.

224 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:36:48pm

re: #219 freetoken

And thus the official US position of a "two state" solution.

The only problem with that is the proposed second state doesn't seem tractable. Having a nation in two parts couldn't work for Pakistan, and it won't work in for a new Palestine.

So does Gaza become its own nation state? It's such a tiny strip of land, with a lot of people. Yes, Singapore pulls it off, but they are deeply integrated with the surrounding nations as far as trade, with deep connections.

Gaza becomes a nation like Somalia, ruled by pirates and warlords.

225 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:38:02pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

Yeah, I was afraid you'd do the Cato thing after your man Mittens lost. Keep this up and you'll need to find somewhere else to troll.

226 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:42:50pm

I have started unfollowing a whole bunch of people on Twitter that posted good tweets during the election campaign, but are now cheering for Hamas.

Most of the derps who are now calling for carpet bombing of Gaza, I already unfollowed during the election.

I just closed the Tweetdeck feed, too much crappity crap is out there.

227 TedStriker  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:43:40pm

re: #216 Vicious Babushka

Mashal is a leader of Hamas? That's not unknown.

re: #220 goddamnedfrank

It boggles the mind that Bibi was welcomed back into Israeli politics after the shit he pulled on Rabin.

I edited my post, because I'm a dumbass; seeing as how the Begin/Sadat comparison came out, my mind thought "Mashal = Egypt".

Had to do a little research on the fly and found out that Mashal is Hamas' chief; boy, do I have egg on my face...

228 Petero1818  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:44:18pm

re: #223 Vicious Babushka

Jews were quite secular and integrated in Europe during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Then something happened in history that caused them to want to have their own state.

Well to be honest, they had been working towards that state for 40 years before that "something happened", because Jewish history has plenty of "something happened"s. Which is why the Jewish State of Israel will never be abandoned or negotiated away by Israel. Which is precisely why they NEED to find a workable 2 state solution. To me Yossi Beilin is perhaps the only Israeli politician to have seen this clearly for the last 20 years.

229 freetoken  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:44:41pm

re: #224 Vicious Babushka

Gaza becomes a nation like Somalia.

But... in theory, if the society there was not at war with itself, Somalia has the resources it needs to be a functioning state. They have water problems, but that is true of many arid climate states.

230 Petero1818  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:46:38pm

re: #219 freetoken

And thus the official US position of a "two state" solution.

The only problem with that is the proposed second state doesn't seem tractable. Having a nation in two parts couldn't work for Pakistan, and it won't work in for a new Palestine.

So does Gaza become its own nation state? It's such a tiny strip of land, with a lot of people. Yes, Singapore pulls it off, but they are deeply integrated with the surrounding nations as far as trade, with deep connections.

No. There are models for keeping a rail and road link that can connect Gaza and WB. It is not ideal, but doable.

231 Four More Tears  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:55:42pm
232 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 7:58:15pm

re: #231 Four More Tears

[Embedded content]

Breaking News: Rupert Murdoch hits bottom, digs.

233 Buck  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 8:00:58pm

re: #209 Ben G. Hazi

Oh, that's right...according to RWNJs, Carter's a raging anti-Semite.

I sure as hell don't agree with everything he's done or said since leaving office, but the Camp David Accords were one of the few things he did right while he was President.

Again, I really hope this isn't about right and left.

In my book ANYONE who says Israel is Apartheid is an Antisemite. Raging or otherwise.

234 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 8:01:12pm

Sorry folks, but I've got to sign off for the night. I'm just too tired to keep going.

235 prairiefire  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 8:07:46pm

re: #226 Vicious Babushka

Mankind! It's why I'm a hermit.

236 lostlakehiker  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 8:07:48pm

One thing is clear: the footage the BBC aired, without narration, will be taken by its viewers as representing in-sequence clips. That now seems improbable.

BBC and Reuters have a version of the footage in which their own on-screen logo does not obscure details such as who is wearing shoes when. Let's hope they'll analyze this footage carefully and tell us what, if anything, they can discern about its authenticity. There's room here for doubt, at any rate.

The cloud of suspicion that hangs over the reporting out of Gaza distracts attention from the main reality: whatever the truth of this or that dramatic footage, no military strike can see through walls and ascertain whether or not civilians happen to be present (or too near for safety) at a military target. Even the most clinical of bombs has a kill radius of some sort. It's not literally a pinpoint strike. In a crowded place like Gaza, any campaign at all against Hamas' rocket artillery cannot entirely avoid killing some number of innocent civilians.

Those who hide their rocket artillery amid densely populated built up areas and fire from there bear much of the responsibility for those deaths. Perhaps military necessity compels them; perhaps they cannot very well fire from out in the open. They'd be spotted. Damn it. No way out. War is hell.

237 jaunte  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 8:09:50pm
238 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 8:16:58pm

re: #193 b_Snark

Yes, you are amazing.

Why, thank you!
///

239 jaunte  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 8:29:21pm

Over 37,000 have died in Syria's civil war, opposition group says

...Of the 37,387 who have perished since fighting began, 6,992 were killed in Homs and 6,750 in the suburbs of Damascus, the Violations Documentation Center said.
...
The U.N. refugee office says 414,838 Syrians are in neighboring countries registered as refugees or waiting to register. Turkey has the single highest number, with 114,944, it says.

240 Four More Tears  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 8:31:09pm

SNL is having fun with Paula Broadwell.

241 Lidane  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 8:40:10pm

re: #240 Four More Tears

SNL is having fun with Paula Broadwell.

Who's hosting tonight?

242 prairiefire  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 8:44:33pm

re: #241 Lidane

Who's hosting tonight?

Jeremy Renner, girl.

243 BongCrodny  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 8:44:59pm

Just when I thought we were going to have an Alabama-free championship game, both K State and Oregon lose?>

I think the football gods must be southern.

244 Lidane  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 8:46:48pm

re: #242 prairiefire

Jeremy Renner, girl.

Wha? And I missed the monologue! ARGH. He's adorable. I love him.

OK. Better turn on the TV now.

245 prairiefire  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 8:50:06pm

re: #244 Lidane

Wha? And I missed the monologue! ARGH. He's adorable. I love him.

OK. Better turn on the TV now.

He sang!

246 Lidane  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 8:51:15pm

re: #245 prairiefire

He sang!

*sigh*

Looks like I'll be trolling YouTube for videos after the show. He's got a great voice.

247 Lidane  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 9:02:50pm

FINALLY. A sketch that plays to Renner's strengths.

248 Alexzander  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 9:03:41pm

re: #231 Four More Tears

[Embedded content]

Murdoch's actual twitter statement:

"Why Is Jewish owned press so consistently anti-Israel in every crisis?”

/facepalm.

249 JAFO  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 9:06:24pm

It Has Been Nearly 28 Years Since We Have Had a Colder-Than-Average Month

Grist.org's Philip Bump dug through NOAA's latest State of the Climate report and discovered this nugget, emphasis his:

The average temperature across land and ocean surfaces during October was 14.63°C (58.23°F). This is 0.63°C (1.13°F) above the 20th century average and ties with 2008 as the fifth warmest October on record. The record warmest October occurred in 2003 and the record coldest October occurred in 1912. This is the 332nd consecutive month with an above-average temperature. The last below-average month was February 1985. The last October with a below-average temperature was 1976.

250 freetoken  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 9:24:18pm

The plant that could:

Some Latin American countries rethink marijuana policy

The legalization of marijuana use in Colorado and Washington is putting some Latin American governments in an awkward position. After four decades on the front lines of the U.S. government's drug wars, some countries are now wondering if it was worth the cost.

It is no longer a criminal act to possess small amounts of marijuana in Mexico and nine other Latin American countries.

[...]

Producing and selling those drugs remains illegal. But after decades of battling drug lords and seizing and burning illicit drugs, the presidents of Guatemala, Colombia and Mexico -- crucial allies in America's war on drugs -- are wondering if they are fighting a losing battle.

"Look at Mexico the past six years," John Walsh of the Washington Office on Latin America. "More than 60,000 dead in their drug wars, and that's just one country."

This week, the presidents of Mexico, Belize, Honduras and Costa Rica called for an international debate on legalization.

[...]

251 Lidane  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 9:26:25pm

Chris Christie was just on SNL. No, that isn't a typo. He did the Weekend Update sketch with Seth Myers.

He's got good comic timing. I was impressed.

252 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 9:32:52pm

re: #70 Gus

I'm willing to accept that some of this was staged yet still find it irrelevant. The efforts to spread this video as another Pallywood stunt is an effort to minimize the hardship and suffering by the Gazans during this operation. So was some of this acting? Maybe. That still doesn't affect my position.

Holy shit.

OK, I'm out of here for a few days. I can handle a lot, but the defense of 'fake but accurate' is really more than I can take right now.

253 Four More Tears  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 9:37:33pm

Whoa. I think John Cole's on a bit of a bender...

254 Lidane  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 9:47:35pm

Why are the only good sketches on SNL the pre-taped ones or Weekend Update? The live skits either fall flat or run on too long.

Oh well. At least next week they're re-playing the episode with Joseph Gordon-Levitt and Mumford & Sons.

255 jaunte  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 9:51:36pm
256 Kragar  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 9:54:19pm

Mexico’s Zetas drug cartel strikes gold in the coal business

They may be known for flashy cars and state of the art weaponry, but Mexican druglords have found an earthy new source of wealth: dirty old coal.

They are mining it themselves in a coal-rich area along the US border or buying it from small mine operators, then reselling it to a state-owned company at fabulous margins that can see them make a profit 30 times greater than their initial investment.

Along the way, besides the earth’s black bounty, the druglords are seeking to reap credibility as legitimate business people.

257 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 9:56:12pm

re: #255 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Beautiful and awe-inspiring, yet another miracle of science I have lived to see.

258 JAFO  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 9:57:15pm
259 jaunte  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 9:57:54pm

re: #257 Shiplord Kirel

Here's a wider view of NGC 6357:
[Link: apod.nasa.gov...]

260 Lidane  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 10:06:52pm

OK. The morgue sketch was funny, but SNL really needs to up their writing game. I think I really only liked the standoff video and the morgue sketch at the end.

That and their Avengers spoof was half-assed. I was hoping for more, even if the whole bit about Hawkeye being out of arrows was funny.

261 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 10:08:17pm

re: #170 Petero1818

And the Arab World doesn't consider us an Honest Broker.

Right now, the negotiations need to be taken over by a Nordic Triad of Norway, Sweden, and Finland.

262 Lidane  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 10:11:32pm

re: #253 Four More Tears

Whoa. I think John Cole's on a bit of a bender...

What's Cole up to?

263 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 10:16:04pm

re: #205 Vicious Babushka

The last one is what I want to see partially as an end goal. By partially, I would like to see super-national regionalization occur, in that essentially, the Levant, Iraq, and the Hijaz combine into a single federal state.

I like the idea of Super-National regionalization occurring Worldwide.

264 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 10:28:42pm

re: #255 jaunte

[Embedded content]

I love Phil. One of my favorite Scientists

265 Four More Tears  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 10:30:05pm

re: #262 Lidane

What's Cole up to?

Quite a few tweets about Gaza. Not so much a comment about their content, it's just that they came across rather rant-like.

266 engineer cat  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 10:41:26pm

there have been so many angry words expended over israel and palestine that for me personally i don't want to add to the parsing of the blame. i take only these positions:

i'm not at all pleased with either side

and i don't approve of anybody who thinks any good results can come from killing more people


of course as americans we generally take the very american point of view that there should be two independent nations that could then be responsible for their own destinies. but for reasons that i don't, being an american, understand, this solution doesn't work either for palestinians or for israelis

267 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 11:05:29pm

Good Morning..It's slow so I'm writing some stuff for the early morning lizards having their first cup of coffee..
Sorry about General P. A man of great power always face great temptation.
It's a fact..I feel bad for him that he failed.
Great Game tonight! Exciting in every way..OU won 50-49 over WV.. It came down to the last play.
Love the holidays..Thanksgiving lunch at 1pm. They love food in Oklahoma.
Hope you are all well...

268 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 11:07:21pm

re: #267 BenghaziHoops

Good Morning..It's slow so I'm writing some stuff for the early morning lizards having their first cup of coffee..
Sorry about General P. A man of great power always face great temptation.
It's a fact..I feel bad for him that he failed.
Great Game tonight! Exciting in every way..OU won 50-49 over WV.. It came down to the last play.
Love the holidays..Thanksgiving lunch at 1pm. They love food in Oklahoma.
Hope you are all well...

Coffee?!
Where?!!
:)

269 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 11:08:12pm

re: #267 BenghaziHoops

KT posted this link, that I think you would like!
[Link: thepioneerwoman.com...]

270 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 11:23:11pm

re: #269 Dancing along the light of day

KT posted this link, that I think you would like!
[Link: thepioneerwoman.com...]

Hi You! Hope you are well.
I'm in scandal over load these days. :)
There was a day when if America was attacked we all pulled together behind the CIC and the Nation. I'm disappointed With the GOP. The so called party of grownups. They act like children.
And who the hell in this world doesn't believe that Obama is going to kill those sons of Bitches?
Obama.. He talks softly but carries of big drone

271 Lidane  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 11:32:14pm

re: #270 BenghaziHoops

And who the hell in this world doesn't believe that Obama is going to kill those sons of Bitches?

People who went full retard back in 2008 and who show no signs of slowing down.

272 Varek Raith  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 11:49:09pm

re: #269 Dancing along the light of day

KT posted this link, that I think you would like!
[Link: thepioneerwoman.com...]

Mongo approve.

274 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 12:21:46am

re: #273 Big Joe Ghazi

Why buy name brand shells when you can get them for a tenth the price?

[Embedded content]

Never let your shotgun shells roll off the table.
Derp!

275 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 1:12:32am

Morning, all

276 Rochi613  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 1:30:32am

re: #28 Killgore Trout

Actually, you're hearing hidden missle launching sites explode when Israel hits them - they're all over Gaza - or missile storage facilities. They've shown us the missile launching sites on Israeli TV, a floor or layer of earth rising to reveal 8 or 10 missile tips neatly lined up, tilted up, ready to fire. Many ingredients of Hamas' enormous arsenal of missiles come from Iran. Some are copies of Iran missiles manufactured in Gaza (e.g., the first 2 that landed on Tel Aviv).

277 freetoken  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 1:35:06am

Thomas Tallis' "Salvator mundi":

278 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 1:45:42am

re: #277 freetoken

Really, really beautiful stuff. You're on a roll with these sacred music selections.

It is pretty astonishing to contemplate the sheer volume of religious music- of all types- that is out there.

279 Rochi613  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 1:48:06am

re: #266 engineer cat

Feel good about yourself now? As a Hasidic Rabbi put it: only horses walk in the middle of the road.
There is no equivalence between terrorism and self defense, even though bath may be bloody. Why is that hard to understand?

280 freetoken  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:20:04am
281 Rochi613  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:41:09am

re: #185 Gus

There is no Jerusalem question.

282 Rochi613  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:44:22am

re: #186 Gus

Even as Arab countries refuse them citizenship and keep them as refugees for PR value?

283 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:48:09am

re: #282 Rochi613

Even as Arab countries refuse them citizenship and keep them as refugees for PR value?

Yeah, that'd be kind of the point of accepting them here, I think. To remove them as pawns.

Realistically, that's politically impossible in the US, and pragmatically pretty difficult too.

There isn't any solution from the current set. There's no magic switch. Whatever happens will take a long time; basically, it'll take the liberalization of the Muslim world.

284 Randall Gross  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:09:39am

To welcome Obama to Myanmar a local graffiti artist did a wall portrait that turned out really creepy looking, making Obama look like the representative of Cthulhu rather the US.

Image: li-obama-asia-03603188.jpg

I predict this thing will be plastered all over RWNJ blogs the next four years.

285 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:06:35am

Hey Rochi613,

Are you aware that Netanyahu said Rabin's administration was "removed from Jewish tradition ... and Jewish values." at far right rallies, where Rabin was depicted in posters in an SS officers uniform, or with a sniper's reticle placed over him? Sorry you didn't like my #220 but there's something kind of fucked up in allowing a guy like that back into politics, let alone making him head of government.

It's like he's been rewarded for poisoning the well of national discourse.

286 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:26:54am

re: #252 SanFranciscoZionist

Holy shit.

OK, I'm out of here for a few days. I can handle a lot, but the defense of 'fake but accurate' is really more than I can take right now.

Total distortion of what Gus said.

287 Flounder  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:34:49am

I found this story entertaining, Secret Service startled by lizard. Okay which one of us is giving the Secret Service a hard time? They can take away your burfday dontchya know.
/
[Link: www.upi.com...]

288 A Mom Anon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:49:07am

I just wanted to thank Curious Lurker for all her hard work on this. I would have lost my mind putting all that together. As for the rest of the conversation, I don't have much to offer. I wish is was as simple as getting some moms together and making the children stop the fighting, but it's obviously too complex for such a simple solution.

It all seems so wasteful and sad.

289 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:51:50am

re: #251 Lidane

Chris Christie was just on SNL. No, that isn't a typo. He did the Weekend Update sketch with Seth Myers.

He's got good comic timing. I was impressed.

He's a character, and unlike most politicians he's got authenticity. New Jersey is lucky to have him.

290 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:52:15am

re: #11 ProGunLiberal

The Palestinians are seeing higher casualties precisely because Hamas uses civilians as human shields and has no problem maximizing the death tolls on both sides. They couldn't care how many Gazans die as a result of Hamas' ongoing terror war against Israel; they see the deaths as a further radicalization and propaganda tool for use against Israel.

When Hamas picks locations for use as command, control, and ammo bunkers as well as launch points for their missiles and rockets, they're doing so knowing full well that Israel can see exactly what they're doing and where they're doing it. They also know if Israel does return fire, it increases the chances of Israel's counterbattery fire hitting civilians.

That doesn't make it Israel's fault, though Israel gets blamed. It rests fully on Hamas.

But for Hamas attacking Israel with incessant rocket and mortar attacks - hundreds of them - Israel would not have retaliated against Hamas and the other terror groups that have also targeted Israel at the same time (PRCs, PIJ).

At the present time, most of Israel's urban population zones are under threat of attack by Hamas rockets - including Tel Aviv (and ostensibly suburbs of Jerusalem depending on aim). No country would ever allow a group to carry out attacks on their capital city or largest urban centers without engaging in military action to defend themselves.

And while I haven't seen all the videos/photos that are now being claimed to be Pallywood productions (I've been on vacation), the fact that anyone (Gus) might be willing to accept fake but accurate is tremendously disheartening.

The fact is that civilians are dying and Hamas is trying to maximize the emotional and psychological toll, and propaganda impact and if they use photos from other conflicts or even photos of Israeli responders helping Israelis injured to further their own goals, that needs to be highlighted and brought to the forefront.

Gazans who may not want to live under Hamas rule have little to no choices; but Hamas was overwhelmingly elected by Gazans in their last election. I daresay they would again be reelected to power again and that's telling that the decades of anti-Israel propaganda have indoctrinated so many to accept the misery inflicted on Gaza by their own leaders' actions.

At the same time, Hamas isn't likely doing this without consultation and support from Iran and Syria - after all, what else can get the Syrian civil war (where 30,000 Syrians - many of them civilians killed by Assad's forces) off the front pages other than another major battle between Israel and Gaza.

291 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:53:52am

re: #287 Flounder

I found this story entertaining, Secret Service startled by lizard. Okay which one of us is giving the Secret Service a hard time? They can take away your burfday dontchya know.
/
[Link: www.upi.com...]

Those were monitor lizards, so it was someone high up in the LGF hierarchy.

292 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:55:52am

re: #290 lawhawk

And while I haven't seen all the videos/photos that are now being claimed to be Pallywood productions (I've been on vacation), the fact that anyone (Gus) might be willing to accept fake but accurate is tremendously disheartening.

I don't get this bit. Civilian casualties occur. Nobody disputes that. This may be a fake. It's possible. It doesn't obviate that civilian casualties occur. It's not possible to wage war without civilian casualties, especially not in a densely packed area like Gaza.

So what is wrong with saying that whether or not this was faked, civilian casualties are still occurring in Gaza?

293 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:06:18am

re: #287 Flounder

I found this story entertaining, Secret Service startled by lizard. Okay which one of us is giving the Secret Service a hard time? They can take away your burfday dontchya know.
/
[Link: www.upi.com...]

UPI needs to moderate its comments:

bikerdog (1 hour ago)

Feed the lizards black meat and let them loose after air force one touch's down.Sounds like a plan to me.

SNIP

Sterculius (2 hours ago)

The biggest most dangerous lizard will arrive on Air Force One.
Reply
jleno (2 hours ago)

I think they are staying home, lizerds that is. Nancy is still upset about her loss in the house, and the Orangutan is planning her next multimillion buck vacation and how she can fit 300 other nggrs on AF-1

That last spew received a reply:

devine retribution (11 minutes ago)

who the fck are you to come on here and call someone a name. everyone at my university is trying to figure out how to get your information. brave behind doors but what happens when you get exposed to the light of day? i hope to see it.

Please expose that racist, Mr. Devine. Hate spewers like that need to be outed so that they may be properly held up to the scorn and derision their vileness has richly earned.

294 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:24:41am

re: #290 lawhawk

And while I haven't seen all the videos/photos that are now being claimed to be Pallywood productions (I've been on vacation), the fact that anyone (Gus) might be willing to accept fake but accurate is tremendously disheartening.

The strongest case you could make 'against' what Gus said is "fake but irrelevant". He didn't make a "fake but accurate" argument. You and SFZ saying he did doesn't make it so.

295 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:30:57am

re: #70 Gus

I'm willing to accept that some of this was staged yet still find it irrelevant. The efforts to spread this video as another Pallywood stunt is an effort to minimize the hardship and suffering by the Gazans during this operation. So was some of this acting? Maybe. That still doesn't affect my position.

Gus seriously, are you trying to say that even if one particular video of Palestinians suffering should turn out to be fake, this doesn't mean that Palestinians are not suffering?///

AHA YOU DID A FAKE BUT ACCURATE!

296 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:32:30am

re: #294 Ayeless in Ghazi

The strongest case you could make 'against' what Gus said is "fake but irrelevant". He didn't make a "fake but accurate" argument. You and SFZ saying he did doesn't make it so.

Can you see how Gus's remarks could be taken as a defense of 'fake but accurate', though? He focuses on the suffering in Gaza, says the video likely isn't a fake, then goes and advocates involvement by Jimmy Carter. Those things put together are often seen by those who have defended past "Pallywood productions" as 'fake but accurate'.

If you think that's not what Gus is saying, I'll take your word for it, but I ask that you understand why others might think as they do.

297 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:37:47am

re: #296 Dark_Falcon

Can you see how Gus's remarks could be taken as a defense of 'fake but accurate', though? He focuses on the suffering in Gaza, says the video likely isn't a fake, then goes and advocates involvement by Jimmy Carter. Those things put together are often seen by those who have defended past "Pallywood productions" as 'fake but accurate'.

If you think that's not what Gus is saying, I'll take your word for it, but I ask that you understand why others might think as they do.

It's a distortion of what Gus said and I think you know that. Why else would you drag Jimmy Carter into it?

Is this you arguing honestly DF, or are you just trying to be "effective"? Sorry, but I have a hard time wondering whether it is worthwhile debating with someone who has stated on many recent occasions that he admires rhetorical dishonesty.

Anyway, by all means argue against what is said, don't try to defend strawmandery.

298 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:44:46am

Off to do some of this:

~Laters!

299 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:48:36am

re: #297 Ayeless in Ghazi

It's a distortion of what Gus said and I think you know that. Why else would you drag Jimmy Carter into it?

Is this you arguing honestly DF, or are you just trying to be "effective"? Sorry, but I have a hard time wondering whether it is worthwhile debating with someone who has stated on many recent occasions that he admires rhetorical dishonesty.

Anyway, by all means argue against what is said, don't try to defend strawmandery.

The reason I brought up Carter was to try to show how someone could be inclined to think Gus was saying a certain thing. I wasn't trying to imply wrongdoing on his part.

For the record: I give my Word of Honor that I do not believe that Gus was attempting to make a claim of "fake, but accurate". And my word of honor is never given dishonestly, ever.

300 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:05:48am

re: #292 Obdicut

I don't get this bit. Civilian casualties occur. Nobody disputes that. This may be a fake. It's possible. It doesn't obviate that civilian casualties occur. It's not possible to wage war without civilian casualties, especially not in a densely packed area like Gaza.

So what is wrong with saying that whether or not this was faked, civilian casualties are still occurring in Gaza?

It's almost as if it was perceived Gus approved or justified Pallywood productions, therefore the the Israel/Palestine 3rd Rail being touched. I don't understand how that interpretation could be made.

People or organizations will create propaganda. We can recognize it for what it is. If the Beige Jacket man was staging, it does not change my opinion of the conflict.

301 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:11:17am

Morning all!

IT is morning --right?

302 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:11:50am

xre: #300 Kronocide

It's important to note and expose propaganda. It's important to note that Hamas often makes faked videos, so that if a really shocking or terrible one crops up we don't knee-jerk react to it.

But honestly, the main thing that makes me think this isn't fake is it's just not that dramatic. It's a guy who's clearly not dead and has no blood on him being taken away. It's not like this is going to make someone go "Israel, those bastards!" The recycling pictures of Syrian casualties being presented as Palestinian are a lot worse, and those are rightly called out as fake and recycled.

303 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:14:17am

hmmm

All of this "pallywood" brouhaha has only served to remind me that we must be every vigilant in fact-checking any media we encounter.

Probably the most important thing I've learned at LGF.

304 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:19:03am

re: #290 lawhawk

And while I haven't seen all the videos/photos that are now being claimed to be Pallywood productions (I've been on vacation), the fact that anyone (Gus) might be willing to accept fake but accurate is tremendously disheartening.

Gus did not say that.

305 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:19:16am

re: #301 Gretchen G.Tiger

Morning all!

IT is morning --right?

Well, the sun came up in the east, so I assume so. :)

306 wheat-dogghazi  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:26:20am

"Big light in sky slated to appear in east."

307 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:30:09am

have a great day all!

308 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:36:28am

About that media building hit in Gaza last night.
Eight reporters hurt in Gaza media centre strikes

The Israeli military in a statement said it had "targeted two Hamas operational communication sites that were identified by precise intelligence."

"The first site... was an infrastructure of Hamas' operational communications, located inside a civilian building," the statement said.

"As a result, and in order to minimise the damage to non-involved persons, the IDF (army) only targeted the communication devices which were located on the roof of the building, and not the operations room of Hamas... on one of the floors."

The military said the second strike, on the Shuruq building, also targeted "part of Hamas' operational communications that was deliberately located on the roof of the building, in which several international media bureaus reside."

The statement called on "international journalists... to stay clear of Hamas' bases and facilities, which serve them in their activity against the citizens of Israel."

The article has a daylight pic of one of the buildings looking fairly undamaged with smoke coming from the roof.

309 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:40:16am

I think this is video of the strike
IDF Pinpoint Strike on Hamas Operational Communications Infrastructure

On Nov. 18, 2012, as part of Operation Pillar of Defense, the IDF surgically targeted Hamas' operational communications capabilities on the roof of a civilian building in the Gaza Strip. The IDF did not target any other parts of the building.

310 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:44:43am

re: #309 Killgore Trout

I think this is video of the strike
IDF Pinpoint Strike on Hamas Operational Communications Infrastructure

[Embedded content]

Won't make a dime's bit of difference to the Israel-haters, but it should clear things up for people of good will.

311 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:54:56am

re: #310 Dark_Falcon

Won't make a dime's bit of difference to the Israel-haters, but it should clear things up for people of good will.

Agreed. It looks like there was a genuine target, carefully hit with minimal force to reduce collateral damage. Most of the press reports I'm seeing this morning are going for the sensationalist "targeting journalists" meme. I'm not surprised that journalists were injured in the attack but I'm also not surprised that Hamas was using international journalists as shields for their own communications equipment.

312 dragonfire1981  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:56:44am
313 SpaceJesus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:57:31am
314 dragonfire1981  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:57:55am

re: #308 Killgore Trout

About that media building hit in Gaza last night.
Eight reporters hurt in Gaza media centre strikes

The article has a daylight pic of one of the buildings looking fairly undamaged with smoke coming from the roof.

I think we don't give warzone correspondents their fair due. These people put their lives on the line to keep us informed and provide crucial photo and video evidence of extremely important events all over our planet.

315 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:04:04am

re: #314 dragonfire1981

I think we don't give warzone correspondents their fair due. These people put their lives on the line to keep us informed and provide crucial photo and video evidence of extremely important events all over our planet.

It's very dangerous work and I can understand how this sort of thing pisses off journalists. I even understand how Western journalists in places like Gaza aren't really going to report Hamas using civilians and even the journalists themselves as human shields. These are nasty people who can and will kill anyone who makes them look bad. Criticism against Israel is much safer and easier.

316 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:05:57am

Here's a pretty testy interview

Gaza: Israel Denies Strikes Targeted Media (video)

An Israeli spokeswoman claims foreign journalists were used as human shields by Hamas, after attacks on two media centres in Gaza.

317 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:10:25am

re: #316 Killgore Trout

Here's a pretty testy interview

Gaza: Israel Denies Strikes Targeted Media (video)

Again, there's nothing for it. The IDF could not allow those comm systems to remain intact. The primary fault is with Hamas for placing them on a media building.

318 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:11:07am

re: #316 Killgore Trout

Here's a pretty testy interview

Gaza: Israel Denies Strikes Targeted Media (video)

wow,, pinpoint strike at the base of a communications tower.

319 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:12:01am

re: #316 Killgore Trout

Here's a pretty testy interview

Gaza: Israel Denies Strikes Targeted Media (video)

It's a testy interview but not unreasonable. Although it would be unthinkable for a journalist to give that same grilling to a Hamas militant asking why they're endangering journalists.

320 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:13:43am

re: #318 sattv4u2

wow,, pinpoint strike at the base of a communications tower.

yeah, looks really clean. If you skim through the entire segment they show some clips inside some of the top floor offices. Some broken windows but not much else.

321 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:16:32am

re: #319 Killgore Trout

It's a testy interview but not unreasonable. Although it would be unthinkable for a journalist to give that same grilling to a Hamas militant asking why they're endangering journalists.

The interviewer makes a fair point. Someone working in the building wouldn't know the purpose of the antennas on the roof. Look at just about any office rooftop in any major (and small) city(ies)and their are an array of antennas/ satellite dishes on them

There should have been some way for the Israelis to alert whatever foreign news orgs housed in that building that it was on a target list. Even if Hamas got wind of the "warning" there wouldn't have been enough time to dismantle the antenna

That stated, the antenna is a legit target IF it's a communication link to Hamas forces in the field

322 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:37:36am

Retired British naval officer disappointed with his children, freepers blame Obama.
This is hilarious. The poor man wrote a letter expressing his bitter disappointment with his 3 children, The Mail published it for some reason, and freepers are adding their own analysis and wisdom.

I think that this father is expressing what a lot of the older generation feels here about the generation of Obama voters, like the ones living in their parents basement and covered by their health insurance up to 26 years-old.

This is what cultural Marxism results in.

There are also a lot of pictures of alleged Occupy weirdos holding ridiculous signs. Needless to say, this has exactly nothing to do with an embittered parent in Britain.

323 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:44:31am
324 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:48:34am

Pointless rocket attacks now even more pointless
Some rockets lack warheads, Israel claims

Israeli security sources say some of the Palestinian rockets fired far into Israel during the Gaza flare-up have lacked powerful warheads because they were stripped down to increase range and spread alarm over a wider population.

"Our assessment is that the prestige of setting off alarms deep in Israel, and being perceived as fighting on, is as important to them now as spilling our blood," an Israeli official briefed on security cabinet decisions said today.

The official and two other sources who spoke to Reuters on the matter did not specify how many of the almost 900 rockets and mortars fired since fighting erupted on Wednesday had been deliberately sapped.

The official said "not a few" of the rockets reaching Tel Aviv and cities closer to Gaza were designed for much shorter ranges but had been shorn of their weighty warheads so that they could fly further. "They're pipes, basically," said the official, who declined to be identified.

325 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:51:06am
326 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:51:30am

re: #324 Killgore Trout

The point often is just to cause Israel to retaliate, to bolster support for Hamas, and to get the headlines about how far their missiles are going.

Hell, it kind of worked on me-- the idea of missiles hitting Jerusalem is another level of concerning.

327 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:57:50am

re: #324 Killgore Trout

re: #326 Obdicut

And just because they lack warheads doesn't mean they can't cause death, destruction and casualties (as well as the aforementioned panic and concern)

328 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:59:47am

re: #323 Charles Johnson

Joel is butthurt and thinks he has one on you. Yawn.

329 kmg  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:13:53am

re: #261 ProGunLiberal

Yeah, their pro-Arab/Muslim slant would make them so much more honest/NOT!

330 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:17:03am

The media is having a frenzy over this airstrike....

'11 die' as missile hits Gaza house

The airstrike targeted the home of the Daloo family in Gaza City's Nasser neighbourhood, reducing it to rubble.

Five women, including one 80-year-old, and four small children were among the dead, said Gaza health official Ashraf al-Kidra.

Frantic rescuers pulled the children's bodies from the ruins of the house, including a toddler and a five-year-old, as survivors and bystanders screamed in grief. Later, the bodies of the children were laid out in the morgue of Gaza City's Shifa Hospital.

The Israeli military said the target of the attack was a top rocket mastermind of the Islamic Jihad militant group. The claim could not be verified, and al-Kidra said the two men killed in the attack were also civilians.

Of course the high value Hamas target was hiding in a house with women and children

Israel claims killing top Hamas operative

THE Israeli army says it has killed a senior Hamas operative in Gaza who was responsible for the movement's rocket operations.

An army spokesman identified the Palestinian as Yehia Bia, who was killed in one of the northern neighbourhoods of Gaza City that experienced the brunt of Israeli attacks on Sunday.

"We can confirm a direct hit," the army spokesman said by telephone.

Deputy Prime Minister Moshe Yaalon said Bia was "the commander of the (Hamas) rocket units" whom the Israeli forces had "intercepted and killed".

331 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:27:18am

re: #323 Charles Johnson

You can't win.

Like I said to Gus, when it comes to the ME, everything is now a zero sum game.

Rationality is no more than an unacceptable concept for far too many.

332 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:30:49am

re: #331 researchok

You can't win.

Quite the opposite. When your opponents lie to make you look bad, it means you've won.

333 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:33:46am
334 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:35:49am

Wal-Mart files U.S. labor charge against union
Self awareness, Walmart has none.

335 ReamWorks SKG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:47:14am

What awful news! I can't stand watching it. And the fact that it seems that everyone is against Israel except Fox News makes it even worse.

I'm setting up for a recital in my home today. We're going to cram 20 people in my living room and listen to all the Schubert Impromtus (Imprompti?), performed by a very well known Sunnyvale pianist.

[Link: lh6.googleusercontent.com...]

336 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:49:37am

Very few news outlets reporting the Hamas missile commander was hiding in the house. Telegraph makes no mention of it at all.
Palestinian children killed in Israeli airstrike on family home in Gaza
The video is a bit graphic and pretty disturbing. At the end there's a "press conference" type event with a little girl reading a statement. Children behind her holding pictures of the dead babies.

337 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:49:54am

re: #332 Kronocide

Quite the opposite. When your opponents lie to make you look bad, it means you've won.

And you still remain a target of the obsessives.

338 Lidane  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:50:23am

re: #334 Varek Raith

Wal-Mart files U.S. labor charge against union
Self awareness, Walmart has none.

Fuck them.

Not only do they deliberately hire most of their workers for minimal hourly wages, but they randomize their schedules so those workers never know when they work next, making second jobs or going to school impossible. They also only work those people at hours just below whatever would qualify them for benefits, forcing many of their employees to go on food stamps or welfare to make ends meet. They've also had to be forced to pay actual overtime to people. As for advancement? Forget it. Raises are ludicrously small and set in stone, regardless of how far above and beyond your job you go.

For all the bitching and whining about unions, companies like Wal-Mart are the reason we still need organized labor in this country.

339 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:50:53am

re: #335 ReamWorks SKG

What awful news! I can't stand watching it. And the fact that it seems that everyone is against Israel except Fox News makes it even worse.

I'm setting up for a recital in my home today. We're going to cram 20 people in my living room and listen to all the Schubert Impromtus (Imprompti?), performed by a very well known Sunnyvale pianist.

[Link: lh6.googleusercontent.com...]

Extra seating in that hot tub on the deck! make that the vip section.

340 ReamWorks SKG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:51:33am

re: #339 Killgore Trout

Are you nearby? Come on over!

341 Lidane  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:52:44am

John McCain has gone full retard. He's now saying he won't support any nominee for Secretary of State until "the truth" about Benghazi is known:

342 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:53:47am

re: #340 ReamWorks SKG

Are you nearby? Come on over!

Thanks for the offer but my day is booked scrubbing toilets and sinks.

343 ReamWorks SKG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:54:28am

Interesting "How Free Speech Died on Campus" in the WSJ today. You may have to be a subscriber to see it

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

344 Targetpractice  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:54:58am

re: #341 Lidane

John McCain has gone full retard. He's now saying he won't support any nominee for Secretary of State until "the truth" about Benghazi is known:

[Embedded content]

You had wingnuts who try to sound "reasonable" by saying now that if Obama had just come out and told "the truth" the day after the attack, they wouldn't be on his case about it?

345 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:56:14am

re: #335 ReamWorks SKG

re: #339 Killgore Trout

Extra seating in that hot tub on the deck! make that the vip section.

Can I reserve a seat on the couch? Those wooden chairs don't look to comfy for a long concert!!

346 ReamWorks SKG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:56:31am

Ok! I've caught up with the news! Back to practicing.

347 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:56:31am

re: #342 Killgore Trout

Thanks for the offer but my day is booked scrubbing toilets and sinks.

You really know how to live!!!

348 ReamWorks SKG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:57:55am

re: #345 sattv4u2

re: #339 Killgore Trout

Can I reserve a seat on the couch? Those wooden chairs don't look to comfy for a long concert!!

Here's a challenge: How many cats can you find in that photo? (There's a reason the people on our block call us "those cat people")

349 Lidane  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:58:13am

By contrast, Joe Lieberman is refusing to play along with the Benghazi conspiracy:

Lieberman Breaks With McCain, Graham On Libya Investigation: ‘I Respectfully Separate From My Two Amigos’

350 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:00:58am

re: #348 ReamWorks SKG

Here's a challenge: How many cats can you find in that photo? (There's a reason the people on our block call us "those cat people")

Don't care how many, as long as there's not one in my place on the couch or in my lap after I take that place on the couch!!

351 Targetpractice  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:01:41am

Another from the "Didn't Learn A Damned Thing" File:

Tom Price: Balanced Approach Means No Revenue Through Tax Hikes

Rep. Tom Price (R-GA) said Sunday on CNN's "State of the Union" that a deficit-reduction deal should not raise taxes but can increase revenue through "pro-growth" reforms.

"We need to look at increasing revenue through pro-growth policies as well as tax revenue," the conservative congressman and GOP leadership member said.

Host Candy Crowley pressed him on what he means by tax revenue.

"Tax revenue -- which means broadening the base, lowering the rates, closing the loopholes, limiting the deductions, limiting the credits, and making certain that we identify the appropriate spending reductions so that we have, indeed, a balanced approach," he said.

Price said "tax increases to chase ever higher spending is a fool's errand," instead calling for a "process of tax reforms and spending reductions."

352 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:02:20am

re: #345 sattv4u2

re: #339 Killgore Trout

Can I reserve a seat on the couch? Those wooden chairs don't look to comfy for a long concert!!

That cat looks like he's staked out a front row seat.

353 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:03:48am

re: #348 ReamWorks SKG

Here's a challenge: How many cats can you find in that photo? (There's a reason the people on our block call us "those cat people")

lol, I only spotted the one by the sofa at first.

354 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:06:13am

re: #353 Killgore Trout

lol, I only spotted the one by the sofa at first.

One on the table to the left of the leather chair against the window (could be ceramic)

355 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:09:47am

((how sad is my life.,,))

A) it's a beautiful sunny Sunday afternoon and i'm at work
B) for entertainment I'm counting cats in a picture in a room in a house of someone I don't know
C) i'm not even a cat person!!!

356 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:15:25am
Scientists are understandably protective of the dignity of science and are horrified by publicity and overstatement. These fears, unfortunately, are not shared by their opponents, which makes for a rather painful one-sided battle. Overstatement may generally be dangerous in science (it certainly is for careers) but for climate change, uniquely, understatement is even riskier and therefore, arguably, unethical.

Read the rest.

357 dell*nix  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:28:12am

re: #348 ReamWorks SKG

4? Two ceramic, two live. One in chair and one on couch.

358 ThomasLite  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:32:49am

re: #325 Romantic Heretic

Once again I will point out how pleased the forces of Hell are with the situation in the Middle East.

...the Israelis build a ghetto not unlike the one in Warsaw sixty years ago....

really? that goes for acceptable with you?

359 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:36:08am

Interesting report here....
PA source: IDF strike that killed 11 targeted engineer

A Palestinian source in Gaza said on Sunday that the IDF strike that killed 11 people, among whom four children and five woman – was targeted to hit Jamal Mohammad Yasin, 50, an engineer.


According to the source, Yasin has no relation to Ihya Rabia, Hamas operative in anti-tank unit who was killed in the strike.

Looks like there may have been multiple hamas targets hiding in the building. Maybe it was being used as a safehouse.

360 Buck  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:58:22am

re: #325 Romantic Heretic

Once again I will point out how pleased the forces of Hell are with the situation in the Middle East.

Really? You can't see the antisemitism you just linked to?

361 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:06:55am

re: #360 Buck

Really? You can't see the antisemitism you just linked to?

I think he was pointing out how crazy it is, described as coming from '...forces of hell.'

362 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:09:19am

re: #361 Kronocide

I think he was pointing out how crazy it is, described as coming from '...forces of hell.'

Thats how I read it also

363 Buck  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:10:16am

re: #341 Lidane

John McCain has gone full retard.

Really that is acceptable here?

364 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:10:58am

re: #363 Buck

Really that is acceptable here?

You been away for awhile!?!?!

//

365 ThomasLite  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:14:52am

re: #361 Kronocide

I think he was pointing out how crazy it is, described as coming from '...forces of hell.'

Nope, the idea of 'tanglefinger' is that it's basically satire, someone posing as one of 'satan's own minions' promoting evil.
This satirical character then makes statements such as "At our urging the Israelis build a ghetto not unlike the one in Warsaw sixty years ago" in a way which, in context, appears to suggest a factual statement.
this is *not* satirical criticism of those who might find such a statement accurate; at least that's not how the author intended it, going by his usual abysmal (abyssal? :) ) prose.

re: #363 Buck

Really that is acceptable here?

Oh come on, I rather liked him four years ago but he's gone bonkers all right. Disingenuous as hell, acting as a partisan hack (not doing that was a big part of his appeal, back then), and coming across more and more as a senile curmudgeon who really, really should just retire already.
I don't agree with the statement per se but it's not all that unreasonable.

366 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:21:21am
367 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:23:31am

I did skip over some of the dead baby pics upthread but was this one discussed?
From the Telegraph
Israeli forces prepare for war as troops mass on Gaza border

The highly publicised death of four-year-old Mohammed Sadallah appeared to have been the result of a misfiring home-made rocket, not a bomb dropped by Israel.

The child’s death on Friday figured prominently in media coverage after Hisham Kandil, the Egyptian prime minister, was filmed lifting his dead body out of an ambulance. "The boy, the martyr, whose blood is still on my hands and clothes, is something that we cannot keep silent about," he said, before promising to defend the Palestinian people.

But experts from the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights who visited the site on Saturday said they believed that the explosion was caused by a Palestinian rocket.

In the chaos, it is highly unlikely that Mr Kandil or anyone else at the hospital suspected that the death was the result of anything but an air strike.

Sharif Khalah, 26, was standing at the end of the alleyway by the road when the explosion happened.

"Suddenly there was this whistling noise, a whoosh and then bang," he told The Sunday Telegraph."I couldn’t see anything for about 10 minutes because there was so much dust and smoke. Then I saw the little boy."

Less than 24 hours after her youngest son’s death, Esmat Sadallah, Mohammed’s mother, was too bereft to apportion blame. It was possible he was struck by a rocket fired by Palestinian fighters, she said. It was also possible he was killed in an Israeli strike, she added, although nobody had heard the sound of a drone or plane in the sky just before the explosion.

368 Lidane  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:23:57am

re: #363 Buck

I'm going to assume you live under a rock and have never seen Tropic Thunder:

369 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:32:17am

re: #286 Ayeless in Ghazi

Total distortion of what Gus said.

You don' t know what the frak you're talking about junior.

370 dragonfire1981  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:35:07am

A pro growth policy huh? That's a clever new name for "spending".

371 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:35:34am

re: #369 Eclectic Infidel

You don' t know what the frak you're talking about junior.

He sure does, sport.

372 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:35:37am

re: #368 Lidane

I'm going to assume you live under a rock and have never seen Tropic Thunder:

[Embedded content]

Sorry, but movies don't guide my decision making process as to what's acceptable to call people

373 dragonfire1981  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:35:54am

re: #368 Lidane

I'm going to assume you live under a rock and have never seen Tropic Thunder:

[Embedded content]

Not a rock, an Igloo. (He's Canadian Remember?)

P.S. I'm Canadian too so I get to make that joke. :P

374 Lidane  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:38:07am

re: #372 sattv4u2

And here I thought liberals were supposed to be the over-sensitive pearl clutchers.

Really? You're getting huffy over that instead of the fact that McCain is saying he's going to obstruct any nominee at State to placate the Benghazi conspiracy nuts?

375 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:39:53am

re: #374 Lidane

And here I thought liberals were supposed to be the over-sensitive pearl clutchers.

Really? You're getting huffy over that instead of the fact that McCain is saying he's going to obstruct any nominee at State to placate the Benghazi conspiracy nuts?

Who got 'huffy"? You placed movie video clip up as an excuse for name calling in real life

376 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:43:21am

re: #371 Varek Raith

He sure does, sport.

If Jimmah could lose his bias against Israel I might have some respect for his posts. What's bothersome is that you think he has a clue.

377 prairiefire  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:43:34am

re: #335 ReamWorks SKG

I like the rug. Is that a framed one on the wall, or a painting?

378 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:43:55am

re: #377 prairiefire

I like the rug. Is that a framed one on the wall, or a painting?

cat hair!!

//

379 Lidane  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:44:04am

re: #375 sattv4u2

So the fact that you're making a bigger deal over my words instead of McCain's doesn't strike you as overly sensitive?

John McCain has publicly said he's going to obstruct any nominee at State until he gets "the truth" about Benghazi. He's going to keep us without a Secretary of State to placate the wingnuts. That's reasonable to you?

380 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:44:39am

re: #379 Lidane

So the fact that you're making a bigger deal over my words instead of McCain's doesn't strike you as overly sensitive?

John McCain has publicly said he's going to obstruct any nominee at State until he gets "the truth" about Benghazi. He's going to keep us without a Secretary of State to placate the wingnuts. That's reasonable to you?

I said that ,, where??

381 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:45:07am

re: #376 Eclectic Infidel

If Jimmah could lose his bias against Israel I might have some respect for his posts.

Speaking out against Jimmah's perceived bias against Israel should not currently be founded upon misinterpreting Gus' comments in this thread.

382 Lidane  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:46:49am

re: #380 sattv4u2

You must find it reasonable since you're more put out by what I said than what McCain did.

383 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:49:18am

re: #381 Kronocide

Speaking out against Jimmah's perceived bias against Israel should not currently be founded upon misinterpreting Gus' comments in this thread.

Please, both of them tag team one another.

384 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:50:29am

re: #382 Lidane

You must find it reasonable since you're more put out by what I said than what McCain did.

Again, i said that ,, where??
That you need me to "find it reasonable" to advance your postition doesn't mean I do or have stated that I do or that I "must"

385 Lidane  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:51:15am

re: #384 sattv4u2

So basically, you're just trolling. Good to know.

386 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:51:22am

re: #383 Eclectic Infidel

Please, both of them tag team one another.

You got a problem?

387 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:52:30am

re: #385 Lidane

So basically, you're just trolling. Good to know.

If by "trolling" you mean objecting to seeing a US senator called having gone "full retard", well yes, yes I am

388 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:52:45am

I'll be blunt. The remaining war hawks from the old days are ruining Little Green Footballs.

389 Lidane  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:55:17am

re: #387 sattv4u2

A Senator who has decided that placating the far right nutbars and their conspiracies is more important than having a Secretary of State.

Yes, he's gone full retard. I stand by that. He's gone completely nuts so he can be a partisan hack. Either deal with that or don't, I don't care. If you want to make it about my word choice instead of what that US Senator said, that's your fucking problem, not mine.

390 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:56:26am

Heh. War bloggers. Too funny.

391 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 11:59:53am

re: #376 Eclectic Infidel

If Jimmah could lose his bias against Israel I might have some respect for his posts.

Perhaps you should lose your bias first?
It doesn't help when you jump the gun and call people anti Israel.
That charge requires proof.

392 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 12:00:01pm

re: #252 SanFranciscoZionist

Holy shit.

OK, I'm out of here for a few days. I can handle a lot, but the defense of 'fake but accurate' is really more than I can take right now.

No. You're completely distorting what I said.

393 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 12:00:41pm

re: #290 lawhawk

No. You're completely distorting what I said.

394 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 12:02:42pm

re: #383 Eclectic Infidel

Please, both of them tag team one another.

You're not addressing the key point.

395 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 12:13:46pm

Anyone who drops the 'Your anti Israel' at the drop of a hat with no proof will be ignored.

396 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 12:15:29pm

re: #395 Varek Raith

Anyone who drops the 'Your anti Israel' at the drop of a hat with no proof will be ignored.

Noun, verb, anti-Israel. Or worse, Anti-Semite. Just another failed attempt to silence even are remote semblance to debate. It's an old LGF ploy to shut down decent which doesn't work anymore which makes some of the older members rather twitchy...

397 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 12:15:33pm

re: #395 Varek Raith

Anyone who drops the 'Your anti Israel' at the drop of a hat with no proof will be ignored.

No, there is proof. A pretty blatant misinterpretation of what somebody else said.

398 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 12:17:08pm

Hah. A Pat Condell video from August. Figures. Look at all the updings it got.

399 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 12:18:37pm

re: #398 Gus

Hah. A Pat Condell video from August. Figures. Look at all the updings it got.

I missed downdinging that the first time.

400 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 12:19:59pm

re: #398 Gus

Hah. A Pat Condell video from August. Figures. Look at all the updings it got.

Geez, I remember that vid.
He's such a loon.

401 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 12:28:57pm

re: #398 Gus

It's fascinating to see who updings these posts - people who have never posted a comment in years, names you've never seen before. Seems like they only log in to LGF to do that.

402 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 12:31:03pm

My point wasn't "fake but accurate." I think it was staged and the point was it's staged but we should not lose sight of the overall picture of what's going on in Gaza and Israel and get distracted with shiny objects.

403 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 12:33:18pm

re: #401 Charles Johnson

It's fascinating to see who updings these posts - people who have never posted a comment in years, names you've never seen before. Seems like they only log in to LGF to do that.

Yeah, I noticed that. Pat Condell is a loathsome man and all he does is spread fear and hate.

404 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 12:35:10pm

re: #403 Gus

Yeah, I noticed that. Pat Condell is a loathsome man and all he does is spread fear and hate.

He is an anti-Semite and an Islamophobe but he tries to disguise that fact by saying "I hate all religions so it's OK to hate Muslims and Jews."

He's an asshole.

405 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 12:39:16pm

re: #404 Vicious Babushka

He is an anti-Semite and an Islamophobe but he tries to disguise that fact by saying "I hate all religions so it's OK to hate Muslims and Jews."

He's an asshole.

I find that hating religions or religious people would leave me a very lonely person in this world. He was also a backer and member of the UK Independence Party.

406 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 12:40:41pm

"Back" should be "backer."

407 engineer cat  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 12:41:44pm

re: #279 Rochi613

Feel good about yourself now? As a Hasidic Rabbi put it: only horses walk in the middle of the road.
There is no equivalence between terrorism and self defense, even though bath may be bloody. Why is that hard to understand?

this is why i don't get involved in the arguments as to whether it's justifiable to kill palestinian children because that's the only way peace and justice will be obtained, or it's justifiable to kill israeli children because that's the only way peace and justice will be obtained

this is what i said before:

and i don't approve of anybody who thinks any good results can come from killing more people

why is that hard to understand?

408 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 12:43:48pm

OK, got some errands to run. Sorry for being discombobulated. It comes in spurts and taking a breather keeps me out of trouble. Oh, and Hamas can go fuck themselves. :D

409 RediSlip  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 12:46:26pm

re: #402 Gus

My point wasn't "fake but accurate." I think it was staged and the point was it's staged but we should not lose sight of the overall picture of what's going on in Gaza and Israel and get distracted with shiny objects.

IMHO, here's a balanced take on the overall picture...Another Superfluous War

I know it's Counterpunch, but they do have some reasonable contributors.

410 kmg  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 12:50:29pm

re: #403 Gus

Charles used to put up Pat Condell's videos frequently. This site is where I learned about the man ;-)

411 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 12:57:27pm

re: #410 kmg

Charles used to put up Pat Condell's videos frequently. This site is where I learned about the man ;-)

Yes, and I seriously regret ever posting his videos. The man is a hater.

412 RediSlip  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 1:01:57pm

In the article from Counterpunch, Uri Avnery mentions Israeli peace activist Gershon Baskin. Here's an Op-Ed he penned in the NYTimes from Friday.

413 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 1:09:53pm

re: #410 kmg

Charles used to put up Pat Condell's videos frequently. This site is where I learned about the man ;-)

By the way, out of more than 41,000 posts at LGF, 10 are about Condell videos. That's not "frequently."

414 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 1:34:18pm

re: #388 Gus

I'll be blunt. The remaining war hawks from the old days are ruining Little Green Footballs.

It's not being ruined.

415 kmg  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 1:36:03pm

re: #410 kmg

I see Pat pointing out hatred, like you do. Only now, you are both pointing in different directions.

416 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:27:58pm

re: #415 kmg

Pat Condell endorsed the extreme right wing UKIP recently, a somewhat cleaned-up and more presentable racist party with the same far right roots as the BNP. He's also a big supporter of Pamela Geller and her Ground Zero MegaMosque hate campaign.

Pat Condell is a racist hater, and he spreads false anti-Muslim propaganda continually. For example: Pat Condell claims all rapists in Oslo are 'Muslim immigrants'.

417 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:35:05pm

re: #376 Eclectic Infidel

If Jimmah could lose his bias against Israel I might have some respect for his posts. What's bothersome is that you think he has a clue.

I do indeed have a clue and being in a generous mood I'm going to try to give it to you, as you seem to be in need of one.

I don't have any "bias against Israel" - I have nothing but hope for that country, and the whole region.

What I have is a healthy aversion to wingnuttery (as do my friends in Israel who I can assure you are very pro Israel) and I won't turn a blind eye to it or give it a free pass just because it is being applied to that country.

I am no more 'anti-Israel' for opposing Netenyahu and the policies of the right in Israel than I am 'anti-American' for opposing the GOP and the right wing in the USA. Or for opposing those who make either of those bullshit arguments.

It's time to stop this nonsensical attempt at emotional blackmail.

418 lostlakehiker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:30:52pm

re: #356 Kronocide

Read the rest.

Every overstatement will be leapt upon. The fable of the boy who cried wolf is apt. Scientists need to continue saying exactly what they know about the trend and about the dangers. No more, as well as no less. They also need to continue to be truthful about the error bars in their projections.

In the short run, getting hysterical just sounds hysterical. In the long run, you're bound to get caught making a prediction or claim that just isn't true. And then those who want to dismiss everything you say have their excuse.

The unvarnished truth is bad enough. New York City will have to spend billions to defend itself from a one meter sea level rise over this century. Another century, and it'll be indefensible anyhow. It'll have to be abandoned, along with Venice, Rotterdam, Galveston, and a number of less obviously at-risk cities.

Crop failures, always with a proximate cause of unusually bad weather, will become considerably more common. As with any bell curve situation, shifting the mean a little boosts the number of 1-in-100 events by a substantial amount, and the 1-in-1000 events by a greater percentage (though still low.) And when the mean shifts enough that the main mass of the climate curve sits outside the optimal growing conditions, we face famine.

But talk of "famine in 20 years" is bound to be quoted back in 20 years. The crisis will still be with us in 20 years. We don't need a record of bad quotes that can be thrown in our faces. There will be work to be done then, and we'll need our credibility.


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