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337 comments

1 dragonfire1981  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:21:58pm

Imagine if you will, Mitt Romney dealing with this situation instead of Obama.

Kind of scary isn't it?

2 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:22:08pm

And it's true. To whatever extent there's legitimate claims by Palestinians of ill-treatment, of settlements encroaching on land, and on restrictions to travel, there is a direct relationship between the willingness of Hamas and other groups to start lobbing rockets at Israel and Israel's countermeasures.

Those who keep the Palestinians misinformed-- through propaganda, especially of the vile antisemitic form-- are very much, if not entirely, to blame for this bullshit. If Palestinians actually committed to peace, if there was, say, a year without a rocket attack on Israel, there would be enormous diplomatic pressure and internal political pressure on Israel to ease security restrictions, to loosen the blockade, etc. I personally think that Bibi bears some responsibility for the situation, both for his cowardly insinuations against Rabin and for his obvious lack of any real effort on the peace process. But he is still not the root of it, just an unhelpful part.

I don't see this happening anytime soon. Hamas leadership doesn't appear to select for people particualrly afraid of death, and the amount of anti-Israeli propaganda that floods the region-- as well as the inevitable result of Israel's defensive measures, that most Palestinians will know someone or be related to someone who's died in the combat-- pretty much ensures that the current system is self-perpetuating.

I firmly believe the only real solution is the liberalization of the Muslim world. Only then will Israel stop being a useful propaganda tool for dictators, and only by liberalism can fanaticism be tamed.

Not exactly easy to do, though.

3 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:29:56pm

Who is this asshole ScarletPimpernel who is on a rage dinging binge?

Karma: 0

ScarletPimpernel
(Logged in)
Registered since: Sep 4, 2012 at 3:19 pm
No. of comments posted: 0
No. of Pages posted: 0

4 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:31:58pm

I unfollowed and unfriended a bunch of wingnuts who were raging at me for supporting Obama during the election campaign. Who knew I was such a "self hater"?

5 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:35:23pm

Upding for Obama.

6 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:37:09pm

re: #3 Vicious Babushka

Who is this asshole ScarletPimpernel who is on a rage dinging binge?

Someone for whom mental health is not a priority.

7 engineer cat  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:39:59pm

re: #3 Vicious Babushka

Who is this asshole ScarletPimpernel who is on a rage dinging binge?

on the internet nobody knows you're a pimpernel?

8 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:40:07pm

re: #6 researchok

Someone for whom mental health is not a priority.

No kidding; it just down-dinged my post about hummus, FFS.

9 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:40:46pm

re: #7 engineer cat

on the internet nobody knows you're a pimpernel

you could advertise on the xxx websites!!
//

10 A Sockpuppet's Sockpuppet  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:41:09pm

re: #8 CuriousLurker

No kidding; it just down-dinged my post about hummus, FFS.

I don't blame it, hummus is yucky.

11 jaunte  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:41:41pm

re: #3 Vicious Babushka

Who is this asshole ScarletPimpernel who is on a rage dinging binge?

Only the most recent person to encounter the LGF psychological torture device known as the downding. A brief instant of feeling powerful, followed by the realization of true impotence. Mash that button!

12 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:41:45pm

re: #10 b_Snark

I don't blame it, hummus is yucky.

It always speaks highly of you!!

13 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:41:49pm

re: #3 Vicious Babushka

Who is this asshole ScarletPimpernel who is on a rage dinging binge?

Karma: 0

ScarletPimpernel
(Logged in)
Registered since: Sep 4, 2012 at 3:19 pm
No. of comments posted: 0
No. of Pages posted: 0

My guess is it's a sock: no comments, no easy way to report it to Charles.

14 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:41:57pm

re: #3 Vicious Babushka

Who is this asshole ScarletPimpernel who is on a rage dinging binge?

Karma: 0

ScarletPimpernel
(Logged in)
Registered since: Sep 4, 2012 at 3:19 pm
No. of comments posted: 0
No. of Pages posted: 0

Should've named itself ScarletButthurt. It's down-dinging Charles a lot, so it must be a sock with a grudge.

15 engineer cat  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:44:01pm

re: #14 CuriousLurker

ScarletButthurt

i will refrain from posting baboon pictures here

16 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:44:09pm

re: #10 b_Snark

I don't blame it, hummus is yucky.

Is NOT!!! //

17 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:45:00pm

re: #14 CuriousLurker

Should've named itself ScarletButthurt. It's down-dinging Charles a lot, so it must be a sock with a grudge.

yeah, because Charles will really notice in that he prolly has, what, a karma of PLUS 87,094,176,538

18 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:45:46pm

Giggles, I just emailed it to Charles, I hope Stinky gets there first!

19 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:45:59pm

re: #13 Ben G. Hazi

My guess is it's a sock: no comments, no easy way to report it to Charles.

Charles will see it. He's always watching everything, even when it seems like he's not. He's kinda spooky like that, heh.

20 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:47:20pm

re: #19 CuriousLurker

LOL! It's just downdinging away!
Self-edits!

21 A Sockpuppet's Sockpuppet  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:47:25pm

re: #16 CuriousLurker

Is NOT!!! //

Is too, my mummy says.

22 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:47:39pm

re: #19 CuriousLurker

Charles will see it. He's always watching everything, even when it seems like he's not. He's kinda spooky like that, heh.

I've got it...Charles is actually the All-Seeing Eye!

Image: all_seeing_eye.png

///

23 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:49:18pm

re: #8 CuriousLurker

He'll probably come after me with a gun.

24 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:49:47pm

Hey, ScarletPimpernel, quit being a coward and post something.

Or are you afraid of getting downdinged?

/gutless punk

25 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:50:38pm

Hey, Scarlet—*waves arms in air*—come over here and down-ding me. I'm kinda starting to like it. It tickles a little. *giggle*

26 jaunte  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:51:26pm

Last week I discovered hummus is good on California rolls.

27 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:51:37pm

re: #23 researchok

Probably not.

28 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:54:12pm

re: #24 Ben G. Hazi

Hey, ScarletPimpernel, quit being a coward and post something.

Or are you afraid of getting downdinged?

/gutless punk

Don't let it piss you off; that's what it wants. Just point at it and laugh, like this:

ScarletPimpernel <— LOL

29 freetoken  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:56:14pm

CBS Face The Nation, hosted by Bob Scheiffer, he of "debate" fame who abandoned any notion of foreign policy in a "foreign policy debate", guides a group of talking heads in trying to mix BENGHAZI!! with the Petraeus-sex-pentagon thingy:

Israel using Gaza as "warm-up" round for Iran?

Yeah, I thought the title of the online article is misleading too, given the actual subject matter of the clip from FTN.

Anyway, such a clusterfuck of talking head idiocy. These folk have to keep any and every "scandal" going just to justify their outrageous salaries, and you and I are not better for it.

30 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:56:22pm

re: #23 researchok

He'll probably come after me with a gun.

Maybe with one of these.

31 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:58:12pm

re: #28 CuriousLurker

Don't let it piss you off; that's what it wants. Just point at it and laugh, like this:

ScarletPimpernel <— LOL

Oh, I'm not pissed, but I don't particularly like shadowboxing with a coward (which is what ScarletPimpernel is, at this point).

32 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 2:59:28pm

re: #31 Ben G. Hazi

Oh, I'm not pissed, but I don't particularly like shadowboxing with a coward (which is what ScarletPimpernel is, at this point).

True that.

33 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:01:20pm

re: #8 CuriousLurker

No kidding; it just down-dinged my post about hummus, FFS.

XD

34 jaunte  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:02:24pm

re: #8 CuriousLurker

Hummus, FFS.

Must be a spicy recipe.

35 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:02:54pm

re: #29 freetoken

Moron Central.

36 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:06:39pm

re: #3 Vicious Babushka

Who is this asshole ScarletPimpernel who is on a rage dinging binge?

THAT'S IT. I'M GOING ON A RAGE UPDING BINGE. TOTAL DING WAR.

37 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:09:04pm

re: #10 b_Snark

I don't blame it, hummus is yucky.

HUMMUS IS TEH LISHUSS!

38 A Sockpuppet's Sockpuppet  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:09:09pm

re: #36 Kronocide

THAT'S IT. I'M GOING ON A RAGE UPDING BINGE. TOTAL DING WAR.

Careful you don't wear your dinger out.

39 A Sockpuppet's Sockpuppet  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:09:56pm

re: #37 Vicious Babushka

HUMMUS IS TEH AWESOME!

[Embedded content]

Kona can have my share.

40 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:10:11pm

Evening Lizardim. I see we have a butthurt sockpuppet on the loose. At least it has outed itself so that Stinky can throw down with the hammer. I trust that the Lizardim have cooled down from last night's/this morning's close-quarters flamethrower combat?

41 freetoken  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:10:26pm

re: #35 researchok

I doubt they are morons.

They do act like cowards sometimes, unwilling to confront those to whom they ask questions. On the whole the DC journalism crowd is a *bit* more aggressive than local news reporters, who tend to do nothing but act like doormats for whatever powerful person they were put in front of to get some propaganda.

Take for example this interview of Gov-elect Pence of Indiana:

Gov.-elect Mike Pence talks about his views on issues, his vision for Indiana

The title promises "his views", "his visions", and then the actual answers from Pence are extremely vague and non-committal, but the interviewer doesn't even blink and re-ask the questions. E.g.:

Q: If a bill that granted “personhood” to a fetus were to reach your desk, would you sign that? What about a bill that teaches creationism in schools?

A: Let me say as governor of Indiana I believe in the independence and the right of legislators to offer legislation. We won’t prejudge legislation or make any determination about legislation until it would reach our desk.

WTF? These should be no brainers. Remember, he's already been elected, so there is no need to dance around. It is unconstitutional for the government to promote a sectarian religious doctrine, and this has been well fleshed out by the USSC, but Pence still refuses to state the truth.

The GOP is not "learning", and frankly that allegedly leftist media is hardly inquiring.

42 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:10:44pm

Wonder who started this little propaganda page up?

EvacuateIsrael.org

...We believe that the acceptance of the existence of a State of Israel was a potentially fatal strategic tactical mistake by the Jewish People, and created solely by rabid and virulent anti-semitism in both Great Britain but especially the United States of the 1930's and 1940's, whose caucasian anglo-saxon protestant power structure of the time made it abundantly clear that more Jews were not desired and would be conveniently foisted off on a new Palestine free of British rule. For the Middle East to eventually “deal” with them. We believe this anti-semitism was unforgivable, and can only be atoned for by undoing the wrong.

We believe as long as the Jewish People remain in Diaspora, scattered throughout the world and the vast land area of the United States of America, they are far safer than they are or will ever be when they are gathered together in any one place...

Nothing there but the "We Believe" statement, everything else is "coming soon."

Lol at reaching a whole new level of Jewish concern trolling. "We have to eliminate Israel to keep the Jews safe, it is for their own good!" Uhh...yeah, sure buddy...I totally believe you...

///

43 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:14:41pm

re: #42 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Wonder who started this little propaganda page up?

EvacuateIsrael.org

Nothing there but the "We Believe" statement, everything else is "coming soon."

Lol at reaching a whole new level of Jewish concern trolling. "We have to eliminate Israel to keep the Jews safe, it is for their own good!" Uhh...yeah, sure buddy...I totally believe you...

///

WTF!

44 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:15:35pm

re: #37 Vicious Babushka

HUMMUS IS TEH LISHUSS!

[Embedded content]

NOM NOM NOM NOM

45 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:16:07pm

re: #44 Ben G. Hazi

NOM NOM NOM

Or as they say in Jamaica

Mon Mon Mon

46 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:16:25pm

re: #40 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too

Evening Lizardim. I see we have a butthurt sockpuppet on the loose. At least it has outed itself so that Stinky can throw down with the hammer. I trust that the Lizardim have cooled down from last night's/this morning's close-quarters flamethrower combat?

Evening. I haven't even read through all the comments on that one. I peeked in via the Spy earlier and, sheesh O_o...seems like I whacked a hornet's nest with a big old stick. Not even gonna deal with reading it all til later tonight when it's quiet.

47 renata39.5  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:16:28pm

re: #29 freetoken

CBS Face The Nation, hosted by Bob Scheiffer, he of "debate" fame who abandoned any notion of foreign policy in a "foreign policy debate", guides a group of talking heads in trying to mix BENGHAZI!! with the Petraeus-sex-pentagon thingy:

Israel using Gaza as "warm-up" round for Iran?

Yeah, I thought the title of the online article is misleading too, given the actual subject matter of the clip from FTN.

Anyway, such a clusterfuck of talking head idiocy. These folk have to keep any and every "scandal" going just to justify their outrageous salaries, and you and I are not better for it.

I watched Face the Nation this morning. McCain was on. It took him about 2.5 minutes to go from discussing the Gaza situation to OMG BENGHAZI. To Scheiffer's credit, he at least pressed in on the Ambassador Rice issue. I used to get irritated when Scheiffer didn't call some people on the bs they were spouting (eg at least two of the things McCain said he has serious questions about and Americans need to know were already answered in a NY Times article and Petreaus's hearing on Friday....), but then I started to figure out that he just has certain guests pegged--why confront McCain when he's obviously got an irrational laser sight on Benghazi? The best you can do is start asking what guiding questions you can when your guest takes a completely unrelated topic--the Gaza situation--and manages to leap and bound over to the Benghazi question in under five minutes. *shakes head ruefully* The real problem here is that someone steeped in old man fear is on the Senate Armed Services Committee and thus on shows like Face the Nation all the time.

The one thing he said that sounded interesting to me was his suggestion that former president Clinton might be a good choice for handling negotiations in the current Hamas-Israel conflict. That has an intriguing sound to me, though I'm not sure whether Clinton would/could have the impact McCain seems to think he could.

48 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:17:31pm

re: #42 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Wonder who started this little propaganda page up?

EvacuateIsrael.org

Nothing there but the "We Believe" statement, everything else is "coming soon."

Lol at reaching a whole new level of Jewish concern trolling. "We have to eliminate Israel to keep the Jews safe, it is for their own good!" Uhh...yeah, sure buddy...I totally believe you...

///

WTF is this happy horseshit?:

We believe as long as the Jewish People remain in Diaspora, scattered throughout the world and the vast land area of the United States of America, they are far safer than they are or will ever be when they are gathered together in any one place...

*headdesk*

49 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:18:12pm

re: #46 CuriousLurker

Evening. I haven't even read through all the comments on that one. I peeked in via the Spy earlier and, sheesh O_o...seems like I whacked a hornet's nest with a big old stick. Not even gonna deal with reading it all til later tonight when it's quiet.

I wouldn't bother even then. Needless to say, I made a killing selling fire-resistant scales. Oh, and dropped a few cat pictures on the thread to help relieve the tension. As I'm sure you've figured out, anything and everything touching on Israel is a very intense subject in these parts.

50 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:18:58pm

Serenity now!

51 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:19:57pm

Is it over yet?

52 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:20:49pm

re: #50 Gus

That would be wonderful. I am afraid it is not going to happen very soon.

53 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:24:43pm

re: #48 Ben G. Hazi

WTF is this happy horseshit?:

We believe as long as the Jewish People remain in Diaspora, scattered throughout the world and the vast land area of the United States of America, they are far safer than they are or will ever be when they are gathered together in any one place...

*headdesk*

That's really creepy. Sounds like a thinly veiled threat.

54 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:27:45pm

re: #43 Vicious Babushka

WTF!

WTF indeed.

The domain is registered to a Leslie Bell of United Western - Studio Seven, Inc. in Las Vegas. Looks like the owner is a guy named Michael Feldman. Nutrei Karta maybe? Do any of those guys even live in Vegas? I can't quite picture them there.

55 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:27:51pm

re: #52 PhillyPretzel

That would be wonderful. I am afraid it is not going to happen very soon.

Gotta find a center on this if it's going to be an extended event. Not like I'm siding with any kooks.

56 jaunte  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:27:53pm

re: #43 Vicious Babushka

Whois evacuateisrael.org:
[Link: www.networksolutions.com...]

57 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:28:39pm

re: #46 CuriousLurker

Evening. I haven't even read through all the comments on that one. I peeked in via the Spy earlier and, sheesh O_o...seems like I whacked a hornet's nest with a big old stick. Not even gonna deal with reading it all til later tonight when it's quiet.

Along with the usual heated discussions on the subject, there seemed to be some misunderstandings that popped up as the thread wore on; the one that stuck out the most for me, SFZ seemed to take it that Gus was advocating or accepting the premise of "fake but accurate" if if could be proven that those videos were staged. I don't think that was the case; I like Gus and SFZ both and I don't want to see friction between any Lizards because of a misunderstanding or misread.

You, Charles, SFZ, Gus, and most other Lizards are good people.

58 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:31:21pm

re: #53 CuriousLurker

*headdesk*

That's really creepy. Sounds like a thinly veiled threat.

I would say so...

We believe to support a State of Israel, indeed, any Jewish State anywhere on earth, is to support the ultimate Nuclear Final Solution, and to do such a thing is absolutely unforgivable.

Join us in convincing, evacuating, and saving all the people of Israel who will willingly, of their own free will, be saved. America is Petra; America is Zion. Amen.

Sounds like someone is really opposed to there being such a thing as a Jewish State and is using "concern" for Jews well being to say that they shouldn't have one.

59 freetoken  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:31:31pm

re: #56 jaunte

That's too easy:

[Link: www.linkedin.com...]

60 jaunte  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:33:18pm

re: #59 freetoken

In business for seven years, four connections on Linkedin; a real winner.

61 freetoken  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:34:12pm

re: #60 jaunte

And a foreign corporation:

[Link: www.bizapedia.com...]

62 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:35:39pm

re: #61 freetoken

Delaware has some very liberal business laws. I do not know all the details.

63 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:36:41pm

re: #57 Ben G. Hazi

There seemed to be some misunderstandings that popped up as the thread wore on; the one that stuck out the most for me, SFZ seemed to take it that Gus was advocating or accepting the premise of "fake but accurate" if if could be proven that those videos were staged. I don't think that was the case; I like Gus and SFZ both and I don't want to see friction between any Lizards because of a misunderstanding or misread.

Ugh. Nope, I don't advocate that at all. It's counter productive in the first place.

64 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:38:13pm

re: #54 CuriousLurker

WTF indeed.

The domain is registered to a Leslie Bell of United Western - Studio Seven, Inc. in Las Vegas. Looks like the owner is a guy named Michael Feldman. Nutrei Karta maybe? Do any of those guys even live in Vegas? I can't quite picture them there.

re: #56 jaunte

Whois evacuateisrael.org:
[Link: www.networksolutions.com...]

re: #59 freetoken

That's too easy:

[Link: www.linkedin.com...]

Release the hounds Lizards!

///

65 freetoken  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:39:45pm

re: #64 Ben G. Hazi

These kind of things really are too easy - Google has done all the real work for you. The tough questions remain - what does this company really do, and why do they do it, and who is paying for it all.

66 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:40:55pm

re: #54 CuriousLurker

WTF indeed.

The domain is registered to a Leslie Bell of United Western - Studio Seven, Inc. in Las Vegas. Looks like the owner is a guy named Michael Feldman. Nutrei Karta maybe? Do any of those guys even live in Vegas? I can't quite picture them there.

Damn you're fast! I was just putting this together.

United Western - Studio Seven, Inc. is affiliated with the Forever Family Band.

This pic is rofltastic though: Michael Feldman, of the Forever Family Band.

Also, while probably in not related, the Forever Family was also once the name of an evangelical cult.

67 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:42:30pm

re: #64 Ben G. Hazi

re: #56 jaunte

re: #59 freetoken

Release the hounds Lizards!

///

Leslie Bell, the "CEO". Now for her & Michale's other life... It gets even better. E gad, effing looney tunes. *headdesk*

68 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:44:08pm

re: #66 goddamnedfrank

Damn you're fast! I was just putting this together.

United Western - Studio Seven, Inc. is affiliated with the Forever Family Band.

This pic is rofltastic though: Michael Feldman, of the Forever Family Band.

Also, while probably in not related, the Forever Family was also once the name of an evangelical cult.

Ha! You beat me to it. It is related if you look at Leslie Bell's LinkedIn photo.

69 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:45:18pm

Ugh. Serenity now!

70 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:45:58pm

re: #63 Gus

Ugh. Nope, I don't advocate that at all. It's counter productive in the first place.

I'm hoping it was a misread on SFZ's part; here was her last post last night:

252 SanFranciscoZionist 11/17/2012 9:32:52 pm PST

re: #70 Gus

I'm willing to accept that some of this was staged yet still find it irrelevant. The efforts to spread this video as another Pallywood stunt is an effort to minimize the hardship and suffering by the Gazans during this operation. So was some of this acting? Maybe. That still doesn't affect my position.

Holy shit.

OK, I'm out of here for a few days. I can handle a lot, but the defense of 'fake but accurate' is really more than I can take right now.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

71 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:45:59pm

re: #69 Gus

::: in lotus position :::

72 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:46:36pm

Gawd, I so love/hate the intarwebs.

73 jaunte  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:47:12pm

re: #66 goddamnedfrank

"America not Petra":
[Link: www.americaisraelprophecy.com...]

74 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:48:03pm

re: #69 Gus

Ugh. Serenity now!

Sit down next to Philly, breathe slowly, and repeat after me, "Ommm...."

75 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:48:32pm

re: #66 goddamnedfrank

Image: michaelfull.jpg

To quote Jack Burton "Oh, my god, no. Please! What is that? Don't tell me!"

76 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:48:53pm

re: #72 CuriousLurker

Gawd, I so love/hate the intarwebs.

Maddening sometimes, isn't it?

77 dragonath  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:49:04pm

re: #66 goddamnedfrank

Damn you're fast! I was just putting this together.

United Western - Studio Seven, Inc. is affiliated with the Forever Family Band.

This pic is rofltastic though: Michael Feldman, of the Forever Family Band.

Also, while probably in not related, the Forever Family was also once the name of an evangelical cult.

OMG, Michael Feldman looks like he's trying to do his best Russell Mael impression

78 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:49:49pm

re: #75 Obdicut

Image: michaelfull.jpg

To quote Jack Burton "Oh, my god, no. Please! What is that? Don't tell me!"

Well, you know what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like this...

/

79 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:49:49pm

re: #74 CuriousLurker

Sit down next to Philly, breathe slowly, and repeat after me, "Ommm...."

Another alternative.

80 freetoken  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:49:55pm

(walking up onto his soapbox...)

My eyes glaze over when I see all of this coverage about Israel and Palestinians. Yes, I understand it is important socially or religiously to some of you, but the world has so many problems, and most of them are on a far bigger scale.

For example, since 1998 the various inter-national and intra-national conflicts in the Congo has claimed a total of about 5 million victims, either killed, injured, or forced to move.

5 million. In little over 14 years.

And tell me, how many front page headlines has that garnered?

Well?

Damn few.

Or how about this: right now, in Bangladesh, a sweeping fire in a major slum has killed at least 11, and injured or displace an unknown figure. Just one in a sea of tragedies there. On rare occasion Bangladesh does get a headline, but mostly we'd just rather forget the millions living in squalor there, as long as we can get our really cheap clothes at the local $1 discount store.

So I take all this coverage of a small state in the middle east with its most likely intractable inter-religious squabbles as a fixation due to our own religious heritage and, frankly, an escape from tackling the bigger problems of the bigger world.

81 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:49:58pm

re: #75 Obdicut

Image: michaelfull.jpg

To quote Jack Burton "Oh, my god, no. Please! What is that? Don't tell me!"

*falls to floor giggling hysterically*

82 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:49:59pm

The funniest fake photo came out of Gaza during the Rooster period.
I wish I could find it again... I fell out of my chair laughing.
They had a picture of a little old lady in Gaza saying in the caption that her house had been shot up by the IDF. She had the proof in her hands of the left over carnage with unfired shells as proof.
I still laugh

83 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:50:27pm

re: #63 Gus

Ugh. Nope, I don't advocate that at all. It's counter productive in the first place.

It was obvious that you were going for "ambiguous and irrelevant." Rampant confirmation bias at play.

84 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:52:33pm

re: #75 Obdicut

Image: michaelfull.jpg

To quote Jack Burton "Oh, my god, no. Please! What is that? Don't tell me!"

Egg Shen: It will come out no more!
Jack Burton: What? Huh? What'll come out no more?!

85 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:52:40pm

re: #82 BenghaziHoops

The funniest fake photo came out of Gaza during the Rooster period.
I wish I could find it again... I fell out of my chair laughing.
They had a picture of a little old lady in Gaza saying in the caption that her house had been shot up by the IDF. She had the proof in her hands of the left over carnage with unfired shells as proof.
I still laugh

I thought that was in Baghdad or Fallujah.

86 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:54:00pm

Uh-oh. Forgot to turn in my timesheet Friday. BBL

87 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:54:03pm

re: #81 CuriousLurker

*falls to floor giggling hysterically*

It's all in the reflexes...

88 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:54:55pm

re: #86 CuriousLurker

Uh-oh. Forgot to turn in my timesheet Friday. BBL

Whoops...might want to get paid there.

89 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:58:49pm

I've had it. Going on an UpDing rampage then flouncing out for a few hours to cool down at a beachfront brewery then watch sports until my wife decides to come pick me up.

90 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:58:57pm

re: #80 freetoken

There's an obvious reason, though, that Israel gets more attention: Within living memory, Jews were rounded up, put into camps, and executed by the millions. So were other groups, like Polish intellectuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, leftists of every variety, but there was a real, concerted effort to wipe out the Jews. And millions upon millions died. If Rommel hadn't been stopped on his approach to then-Palestine, even more would have died.

The rhetoric used by many Arab nations in regards to Israel is eliminationist, carrying with it the overtones of the Holocaust.

Obviously, in an overwhelming Christian country like ours, there's the religious emphasis as well. I completely agree with that. But I do think the historical perspective of the creation of Israel during a time of mass Jewish persecution is relevant, too.

91 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 3:59:37pm

re: #80 freetoken

So I take all this coverage of a small state in the middle east with its most likely intractable inter-religious squabbles as a fixation due to our own religious heritage and, frankly, an escape from tackling the bigger problems of the bigger world.

Well, yes and no. I agree there are many important international issues, many with higher death tolls and greater suffering than the Israel/Palestine issue. Especially Americans are woefully ignorant and callous as to what's happening in the world around them. However, issues regarding Israel have a larger ripple effect. Will Hezbollah join in the fun if Israel goes into Gaza. Will Egypt get involved or allow terrorist attack from Sinai? Iran? Assad? Al Qaeda?
It's not like WWIII is going to break out or anything but what happens with Israel does have a large effect on the rest of the world. I think more importantly once Muslim nations begin to accept Israel's existence and get on with improving their own lives instead of blaming others the world will become a much happier and safer place.

92 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:04:59pm

re: #67 CuriousLurker

Leslie Bell, the "CEO". Now for her & Michale's other life... It gets even better. E gad, effing looney tunes. *headdesk*

OMG why did I click on that link? I'm going to have seizures now. oO

93 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:06:28pm

re: #2 Obdicut

Israel must also take responsibility for the Deir Yassin and Al Dawayima massacres. The last one is particularly galling, because the Haganah had this to say about the town:

The Haganah intelligence service (HIS) considered the village to be 'very friendly'.

Israel should have prosecuted the members of both Lehi and Irgun after the war had ended.

And my Palestinian friends are getting even more tweaked now. They are saying there is no good reason to use DIME weapons in such a densely populated place.

94 freetoken  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:06:44pm

There are 1.7 million people in Gaza (according to Wikipedia), not a small population... for a city.

Gaza has an area of roughly 17 square miles. I could jog around it in a day and still have time for other activities.

The city of San Diego incorporates 325 square miles, 19x the size of Gaza.

Gaza is but a mid size city on the world scale, in population, and not very large in area for a city compared to Western hemisphere standards.

When I wrote "intractable" above I really mean it. Yes, it is clear that a non-trivial portion of the Gaza community have bought into the anti-semitism so commonly preached, but there is nothing I can do about that, and call me doomer if you will, but I doubt there is anything any of you can do about it either.

Not all problems we humans create can be fixed.

I'd rather we spent our (collective, national) efforts on those problems we have a chance of fixing, and with whatever we have left try to create an society that avoids the problems in the first place.

I'm glad the President is heading to SE Asia, a region too quickly forgotten. I really wish he'd spend more time in Latin America, where I propose we have a better chance of seeing real progress in co-creating positive change and a brighter future.

95 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:06:58pm

re: #92 Vicious Babushka

Just put your mat down next to me and just relax.

96 engineer cat  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:08:23pm

re: #75 Obdicut

Image: michaelfull.jpg

To quote Jack Burton "Oh, my god, no. Please! What is that? Don't tell me!"

wig

97 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:08:59pm

re: #89 Kronocide

I've had it. Going on an UpDing rampage then flouncing out for a few hours to cool down at a beachfront brewery then watch sports until my wife decides to come pick me up.

You da man!

98 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:09:23pm

And apparently Gilad Sharon, Ariel Sharon's youngest son, is advocating for some nasty things.

99 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:09:37pm

re: #94 freetoken

Not all problems we humans create can be fixed.

It's not being a doomer, it's just being ridiculous to think that anti-semitism in the Palestinian population is irrevocable. Propaganda can be reversed. Japan went from our dire enemy of evil monkey-men who all had twisted brains to our ally and international friend, full of funky fun people and weird comedy shows.

100 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:14:38pm

So a man called Michael Calleri had been writing movie reviews for the Niagara Falls Reporter for years when a new owner bought the paper. Soon after this only some of his reviews were being published and many of his old reviews started disappearing from the papers website.

He also noticed that all the top women at the paper were now gone and that the tone of the paper was changing a lot. When he contacted the new owner to find out what was going on with his reviews this is the response he got...

Michael; I know you are committed to writing your reviews, and put a lot of effort into them. it is important for you to have the right publisher. i may not be it. i have a deep moral objection to publishing reviews of films that offend me. snow white and the huntsman is such a film. when my boys were young i would never have allowed them to go to such a film for i believe it would injure their developing manhood. if i would not let my own sons see it, why would i want to publish anything about it?

snow white and the huntsman is trash. moral garbage. a lot of fuzzy feminist thinking and pandering to creepy hollywood mores produced by metrosexual imbeciles.

I don't want to publish reviews of films where women are alpha and men are beta.

where women are heroes and villains and men are just lesser versions or shadows of females.

i believe in manliness.

not even on the web would i want to attach my name to snow white and the huntsman except to deconstruct its moral rot and its appeal to unmanly perfidious creeps.

i'm not sure what headhunter has to offer either but of what I read about it it sounds kind of creepy and morally repugnant.

with all the publications in the world who glorify what i find offensive, it should not be hard for you to publish your reviews with any number of these.

they seem to like critiques from an artistic standpoint without a word about the moral turpitude seeping into the consciousness of young people who go to watch such things as snow white and get indoctrinated to the hollywood agenda of glorifying degenerate power women and promoting as natural the weakling, hyena -like men, cum eunuchs.

the male as lesser in courage strength and power than the female.

it may be ok for some but it is not my kind of manliness.

If you care to write reviews where men act like good strong men and have a heroic inspiring influence on young people to build up their character (if there are such movies being made) i will be glad to publish these.

i am not interested in supporting the reversing of traditional gender roles.

i don't want to associate the Niagara Falls Reporter with the trash of Hollywood and their ilk.

it is my opinion that hollywood has robbed america of its manliness and made us a nation of eunuchs who lacking all manliness welcome in the coming police state.

now i realize that you have a relationship with the studios etc. and i would have been glad to have discussed this in person with you to help you segue into another relationship with a publication but inasmuch as we spent 50 minutes on the phone from paris i did not want to take up more of your time.

In short i don't care to publish reviews of films that offend me.

if you care to condemn the filmmakers as the pandering weasels that they are.... true hyenas.

i would be interested in that....

Frank

Well I guess now we know why there are no longer any women in top positions at the paper...sheesh. :(

101 freetoken  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:14:49pm

re: #99 Obdicut

...Propaganda can be reversed. Japan went from our dire enemy of evil monkey-men who all had twisted brains to our ally and international friend, full of funky fun people and weird comedy shows.

I think that analogy won't work. Japanese were not "evil" in Americans' eyes until the late 30's, and even then it took government propaganda to convince them so, in light of Pearl Harbor made an easy job.

America prized Japan so much we sent war ships there in the 19th century to force them to open up to us.

There are no productive parallels between Japan-US and the feelings of those in Gaza towards Israel.

The anti-semitism we see today in Gaza has very deep roots, was not invented in 1948 but taps into much older hatred.

It's that religious/ethnic hatred that I am quite convinced I am powerless to fix. First, its too far removed from me, secondly the participants are hardly listening.

102 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:18:04pm

re: #101 freetoken

I think that analogy won't work. Japanese were not "evil" in Americans' eyes until the late 30's, and even then it took government propaganda to convince them so, in light of Pearl Harbor made an easy job.

Yeah, it took propaganda and some bombing to convince them.

America prized Japan so much we sent war ships there in the 19th century to force them to open up to us.

True, not sure why that's relevant at all.

There are no productive parallels between Japan-US and the feelings of those in Gaza towards Israel.

So quoth you, so mote it be! It wasn't an attempt to draw a parallel, though. It was just an example of virulent propaganda reversing once the underlying causes went away.

The anti-semitism we see today in Gaza has very deep roots, was not invented in 1948 but taps into much older hatred.

No, it doesn't. There is no old hatred between Muslims and Jews. What older hatred are you referring to?

It's that religious/ethnic hatred that I am quite convinced I am powerless to fix. First, its too far removed from me, secondly the participants are hardly listening.

I don't think I'd call on you to try to help, it's true.

103 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:20:09pm

re: #101 freetoken

Perhaps you are aware of where the Jews purged from the reconquista went? This is something that dates from the time of European Meddling in the Ottoman Empire.

Almost every little trope you now see over there had its origins in Europe. The great European Powers in fact should be taking the responsibility for fixing this mess, especially Britain and France.

Muslims do not mindlessly hate Jews.

104 freetoken  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:20:15pm

re: #102 Obdicut

There is no old hatred between Muslims and Jews. What older hatred are you referring to?

You did note that I did not write "Muslim"?

105 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:20:21pm

re: #93 ProGunLiberal

And my Palestinian friends are getting even more tweaked now. They are saying there is no good reason to use DIME weapons in such a densely populated place.

The entire point of a dense inert metal explosive is to limit collateral damage. The kinetic energy of the blast is somewhat absorbed by the tungsten, reducing the radius, brisance, and speed of the shockwave.

Now there are valid criticisms, it's a new tech and some of the health side effects of nano scale shrapnel penetration aren't well understood, but it's wrong to say that there's no good reason to use a technology explicitly designed to reduce effective blast radius in a dense populated environment.

106 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:21:26pm

Where do people get the idea that there's this old conflict between Jews and Muslims? Sure, there were times when Muslim regimes expelled jews, confiscated property, actually went to war with Jewish communities, but it is historically very much Christians that have persecuted and slaughtered Jews in greater numbers. The Muslim countries were often a place of refuge from Christian persecution, and in Palestine/Israel, Jews fought on the side of Muslims against the Christian crusaders.

107 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:21:39pm

re: #104 freetoken

You did note that I did not write "Muslim"?

Okay, then what older hatred?

108 freetoken  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:23:14pm

re: #107 Obdicut

Okay, then what older hatred?

Of Jews, or more particularly, the western stereotype of "Jew".

109 sagehen  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:24:33pm

re: #47 renata39.5

The one thing he said that sounded interesting to me was his suggestion that former president Clinton might be a good choice for handling negotiations in the current Hamas-Israel conflict. That has an intriguing sound to me, though I'm not sure whether Clinton would/could have the impact McCain seems to think he could.

And here I'd been thinking soon-to-be-former Sec of State Clinton should be the one to do that. She'll soon have time on her hands, and if she could narrow her focus to just that one issue, she could solve it quicker than anyone else we've got (including her husband).

110 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:26:16pm

re: #108 freetoken

Of Jews, or more particularly, the western stereotype of "Jew".

Can you please put a bit of effort into explaining what you mean? How is the Western stereotype of the Jew the source of antisemitism among Palestinians? Obviously some of the antisemitic materials are recycled from Western sources-- is that what you mean?

I'm sorry, but that seems to completely obviate Arab/Muslim culture and assert that the West has cultural dominance there. Maybe I'm not getting you.

111 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:27:50pm

re: #105 goddamnedfrank

Oh really? They have a much different impression

I should mention, the pictures I am now seeing from dead kids in the Gaza Strip are tearing at me. All this is going to do is deepen the already monumental anger the Palestinians have.

This is why I dislike all sides in this conflict. All of them just want to increase anger.

re: #109 sagehen

We are no longer seen as an honest broker by the Arab World. I would push Norway, Sweden, and Finland to broker the deal. And Israel must concede most of the West Bank and guarantee Palestinian Rights to the Temple Mount.

112 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:29:08pm

re: #111 ProGunLiberal

Oh really? They have a much different impression

I should mention, the pictures I am now seeing from dead kids in the Gaza Strip are tearing at me. All this is going to do is deepen the already monumental anger the Palestinians have.

Some of the pictures being shown are from Syria and even one Israeli child.

113 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:30:04pm

re: #112 Vicious Babushka

Oh, so no Palestinian Children are dying?

114 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:30:07pm

Bomb Explodes Right Near Anderson Cooper During Live Report From Gaza (video)
He handles it pretty damn well. I don't think it was really that close judging by the time between the flash and the bang but he kept his cool.

115 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:31:21pm

re: #113 ProGunLiberal

Oh, so no Palestinian Children are dying?

What does the word 'some' mean?

116 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:31:31pm

re: #111 ProGunLiberal

And Israel must concede most of the West Bank and guarantee Palestinian Rights to the Temple Mount.

Might help if Hamas (et al) actually, you know, recognize the State of Israel, no?

117 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:31:40pm

re: #113 ProGunLiberal

Oh, so no Palestinian Children are dying?

I didn't say that. I said that some of the pictures shown may not be of Palestinian children.

118 A Sockpuppet's Sockpuppet  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:33:42pm

One child's death is too many.

119 freetoken  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:33:57pm

re: #110 Obdicut

I'm sorry, but that seems to completely obviate Arab/Muslim culture and assert that the West has cultural dominance there. Maybe I'm not getting you.

Well, I guess I did obviate, but that is because I'm trying to squeeze into 2 sentences that which probably takes two pages to explain.

For example, not all Palestinians are Muslim. Some identify as "Christian" (albeit more so in the West Bank.) Do those Christian Palestinians hold to the same anti-semitism as their Muslim fellows? Well, yes, at least some of them do, from the images and stories that have come across over the years.

Thus the anti-semitism isn't just a simple religion-vs-religion, or even one culture vs. another culture. It is targeted hated that has many strings pulled through history.

Against such a complex and deep culture of hatred I do feel that we, so far removed, will not make progress. When generations die off - then, perhaps, new generations might work it out differently.

120 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:34:36pm

re: #111 ProGunLiberal

Oh really? They have a much different impression

Yes really. Being on the receiving end of any ordnance sucks, but a straight RDX / HMX high explosive would have a much greater lethal radius. DIME is designed to maximize the kinetic energy absorbed by the structure hit without turning the structure itself into lethal shrapnel moving at high velocity. It's like a hollow point bullet, designed to expand and expend all of the energy within the target, without over-penetrating.

121 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:34:59pm

re: #118 b_Snark

One child's death is too many.

Yes.. And it shouldn't matter their race or religion

122 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:36:25pm

re: #119 freetoken

Thus the anti-semitism isn't just a simple religion-vs-religion, or even one culture vs. another culture. It is targeted hated that has many strings pulled through history.

THat's actually kind of my point, that it's not religion vs. religion or culture vs. culture. It's a factor of actual geopolitics-- two groups fighting for shared resources-- and purposed propaganda.

Against such a complex and deep culture of hatred I do feel that we, so far removed, will not make progress. When generations die off - then, perhaps, new generations might work it out differently.

I still don't get what this deep history you think is. You said it was the Western stereotype of the Jew. What does the Western stereotype of the Jew have to do with Palestinian antisemitism? Aside from recycling of antisemitic behavior, Arab stereotypes of Jews are very different from Western ones.

Can you explain that bit?

123 DisturbedEma  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:37:51pm

re: #111 ProGunLiberal

pardon me but it seems that Jews have a harder time exercising their right to this site than others

124 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:39:08pm

re: #116 sattv4u2

They should, you are right. However, it seems nobody remembers that Israel's hands aren't clean either. With the exception of a very small number, most in the US are not aware of the 2 massacres I have mentioned, and when you have people like Gilad Sharon calling for the flattening of neighborhoods of Gaza, that is not helping.

re: #123 DisturbedEma

So, what should happen with Al-Aqsa and Dome of the Rock then?

125 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:40:33pm

re: #100 watching you tiny alien kittens are

So a man called Michael Calleri had been writing movie reviews for the Niagara Falls Reporter for years when a new owner bought the paper. Soon after this only some of his reviews were being published and many of his old reviews started disappearing from the papers website.

He also noticed that all the top women at the paper were now gone and that the tone of the paper was changing a lot. When he contacted the new owner to find out what was going on with his reviews this is the response he got...

Well I guess now we know why there are no longer any women in top positions at the paper...sheesh. :(

Frank Parlato Jr.

A corrupt, power-hungry throwback, if ever there was one.

126 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:41:10pm

Gaza is a bit quieter tonight but I'm not sure that's a good sign. A thin list of targets for air and artillery could mean the next phase is ready.

127 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:41:21pm

re: #100 ausador

Doh. Paged this a few minutes too late then.

128 DisturbedEma  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:42:42pm

As this unfolds, I'm scared for all

129 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:43:04pm

re: #94 freetoken

A better perspective:
Geographical clarity

Gaza is not quite as populated as most media would have you believe

130 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:43:23pm

re: #116 sattv4u2

And Israel must concede most of the West Bank and guarantee Palestinian Rights to the Temple Mount.

Might help if Hamas (et al) actually, you know, recognize the State of Israel, no?

I was reading about the protests today in the West Bank. It seems a lot of people are pissed at Abbas for not doing enough to resist Israel.

131 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:43:56pm

re: #124 ProGunLiberal

most in the US are not aware of the 2 massacres I have mentioned,

iirc, Israelis (via Israeli courts) have been prosecuted for such crimes
Can you show me where the reverse is true?

when you have people like Gilad Sharon calling for the flattening of neighborhoods of Gaza

What influence does he have on the current gov't/ military decisions? i'd be willing to wager that offspring of prominent Palistinian leaders harbor just a much ill will towards Israeli neighborhoods. In other words, so what

132 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:44:02pm

re: #120 goddamnedfrank

Basic physics really. E = 1/2MV**2

Increasing the mass by mixing it in with the same amount of explosive (instead of constraining the explosive with a jacket), means more of the energy is spent trying to accelerate that mass, reducing the blast radius. The other thing is that smaller, nano sized bits of stuff accelerate and decelerate faster because of the greater surface area to mass ratio. In other words their KE is more likely to be dispersed into the first thing they hit rather than travel far through it, whether that first thing is air, concrete or flesh.

133 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:45:35pm
134 A Sockpuppet's Sockpuppet  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:46:00pm

re: #123 DisturbedEma

pardon me but it seems that Jews have a harder time exercising their right to this site than others

Do you really think Jewish lizards have a tougher time here?

135 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:46:05pm

re: #131 sattv4u2

There has never been a single prosecution for Deir Yassin or Al-Dawayima. In fact, even 64 years later, the report on Al-Dawayima has not even been released, which lead me to believe whatever is in it must be somehow worse than the amount we do know.

136 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:47:39pm

re: #135 ProGunLiberal

There has never been a single prosecution for Deir Yassin or Al-Dawayima. In fact, even 64 years later, the report on Al-Dawayima has not even been released, which lead me to believe whatever is in it must be somehow worse than the amount we do know.

What about Hebron 1929? What about the Hadassah medical convoy? Jerusalem 1936?

Do you really want to play "Dueling Atrocities"?

I'll have to tune up the ol' banjo.

137 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:48:24pm

re: #135 ProGunLiberal

There has never been a single prosecution for Deir Yassin or Al-Dawayima. In fact, even 64 years later, the report on Al-Dawayima has not even been released, which lead me to believe whatever is in it must be somehow worse than the amount we do know.

That didn't answer the question I asked, now did it?

138 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:49:46pm

re: #134 b_Snark

Do you really think Jewish lizards have a tougher time here?

I think the site in question is the Dome of the Rock/Temple Mount.

139 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:50:55pm

re: #134 b_sharp

Do you really think Jewish lizards have a tougher time here?

Heh. Wrong site.

140 Alexzander  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:51:05pm

re: #134 b_Snark

Do you really think Jewish lizards have a tougher time here?

Yeah I wasn't going to say anything but that was a pretty funny comment. LGF is one of the biggest internet supporters of Israel since quite literally the beginning of the 'blogosphere' and a high percentage of the commenters are Jewish relative to both the US and international population.

141 A Sockpuppet's Sockpuppet  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:51:32pm

re: #138 Killgore Trout

I think the site in question is the Dome of the Rock/Temple Mount.

Thanks.
I was afraid I wasn't seeing something here that I should.

142 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:52:12pm

re: #136 Vicious Babushka

If you look at the reports on the Haganah Convoy massacre, that was a backlash against Deir Yassin.

The other 2, I will concede. I am trying to point out the Palestinians have suffered too. Neither side is innocent.

143 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:52:28pm

re: #133 researchok

For a European idea of Gaza's relative size

St Pancras would make a lovely beach resort.

144 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:53:07pm

re: #142 ProGunLiberal

If you're trying to point out that neither side is innocent, calling on only one side to admit culpability for atrocities isn't the way to do it.

145 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:54:03pm

re: #142 ProGunLiberal

If you look at the reports on the Haganah Convoy massacre, that was a backlash against Deir Yassin.

The other 2, I will concede. I am trying to point out the Palestinians have suffered too. Neither side is innocent.

Who here said, intimated, suggested, otherwise??

146 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:54:26pm
147 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:56:48pm

re: #142 ProGunLiberal

Are you implying there is a moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas?

148 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:58:13pm

Haaretz has been getting on my nerves but this did make me laugh
Amid massive call-up, many IDF reservists report food, supply shortages

Senior army official dismisses 'annoying complaints by a few.'

149 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:58:26pm

re: #144 Obdicut

We only hear on hear about how the Palestinians are the ones doing the bad actions.

My logic is, considering that, I can point out what the Palestinians are going through without talking about the other side, as most of you are already doing it.

150 A Sockpuppet's Sockpuppet  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:58:51pm

Why do I feel so damn anxious?

151 Alexzander  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:59:24pm

re: #148 Killgore Trout

Haaretz has been getting on my nerves but this did make me laugh
Amid massive call-up, many IDF reservists report food, supply shortages

Why has it been getting on your nerves?

152 bratwurst  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 4:59:46pm
153 kirkspencer  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:00:11pm

The more I examine the recent history of the region, the less I want to play. The critical point to me is that none of the state actors want peace, and all have acted in one fashion or another to sabotage it.

Let me slightly rephrase. They are all willing to accept peace if it is interpreted as "those guys go away."

There are, and were, many voices in the various states that have been honest actors in the peace process. Many are dead. Those that remain are, at best, gadflies large enough to be heard regardless. But for the past decade nobody in the region - and I include Israel - has honestly moved for peace. And in fact all have acted in ways to slow if not outright undercut the peace process.

I would rather live with Israel than any of the other nations. But I will acknowledge them as the victims or "right" in this conflict -- not wholly.

And to be honest that rather saddens me.

154 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:00:36pm

re: #147 researchok

No, I am implying Israel ain't exactly shiny.

And with both Likud and Hamas being dominant, peace is very far away. Remember, Likud is descended of Irgun.

And are we all familiar with the actions of Irgun.

155 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:00:55pm

re: #149 ProGunLiberal

We only hear on hear about how the Palestinians are the ones doing the bad actions.

In the current moment?

My logic is, considering that, I can point out what the Palestinians are going through without talking about the other side, as most of you are already doing it.

That's logic, huh? You're clearly not going to pay any attention to anyone else who's talking about the Palestinians and what they're going through. I mean, I have, but you clearly just don't give a shit. Why do you constantly try to paint this black and white picture?

156 sattv4u2  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:04:13pm

And on that note, the long quiet drive home beckons!

({sigh,, kinda wish i could stay,,, looks like it's getting interesting WITHOUT being rancorous}}{{{hope}}}

157 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:04:35pm

re: #151 Alexzander

Why has it been getting on your nerves?

Some pretty bad reporting lately. I think they were first to run the bogus article about the Hamas guy assassinated last week was in possession of some awesome secret peace plan so the Israelis killed him. There was another really bad one today about an ex general who arguing that lifting the sea blockade would be a good idea. They've always been a little dovish but still worth reading. Lately they've been pretty bad.

158 bratwurst  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:05:06pm

re: #154 ProGunLiberal

And with both Likud and Hamas being dominant, peace is very far away.

I am no fan of Likud, but to even imply it is in any way comparable to Hamas is ridiculous.

159 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:07:37pm

re: #154 ProGunLiberal

Interesting.

In the last 60 years there have been all kinds of Israeli governments, Right. Left. Labor, various coalitions of all stripes- and yet the Palestinian leadership has been unable to find a way to make peace.

That has been a constant.

You know what else has been a constant?

Incessant and relentless racism, bigotry and hate directed at Israelis (and Jews and other religious minorities) by Palestinian and Arab world leaders.

Lastly, do you really want to compare the Irgun to Hamas? Do you really want to compare what may have been tragic events to what is a decades old ideology of violence and hate- not only at Israelis but towards Palestinians as well?

Do you really believe there is a moral equivalence?

160 wrenchwench  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:08:46pm
161 engineer cat  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:09:15pm

re: #123 DisturbedEma

pardon me but it seems that Jews have a harder time exercising their right to this site than others

to paraphrase the ancient joke we hebrews love to tell about ourselves:

if there are ten jewish lizards on a blog, they'll be at least eleven opinions about any given subject

162 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:09:28pm

re: #160 wrenchwench

LOLOL

163 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:10:10pm

re: #155 Obdicut

Probably right now because my friends in question are getting me frustrated with the situation.

Granted, this is more towards the entire media. The media doesn't tend to care about the Palestinians. I could probably count the number of reports that don't paint the Palestinians as evil from the media in the past 4 years on my hands.

Not to mention I remember an incident when I was in MSA in Junior Year (I think? (I was already attending MSA as a friend of a few Muslims in late Sophomore Year) This was way before the ineffective nutcase from last year was in power. Apparently, a Pro-Israeli Group on campus decided to call the campus police on us. That got all of us ticked off. And the kicker is that MSA really doesn't talk about Palestine much, if at all. There's a Pro-Palestinian group on campus for that.

164 kirkspencer  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:13:56pm

re: #163 ProGunLiberal

Probably right now because my friends in question are getting me frustrated with the situation.

Granted, this is more towards the entire media. The media doesn't tend to care about the Palestinians. I could probably count the number of reports that don't paint the Palestinians as evil from the media in the past 4 years on my hands.

Not to mention I remember an incident when I was in MSA in Junior Year (I think? (I was already attending MSA as a friend of a few Muslims in late Sophomore Year) This was way before the ineffective nutcase from last year was in power. Apparently, a Pro-Israeli Group on campus decided to call the campus police on us. That got all of us ticked off. And the kicker is that MSA really doesn't talk about Palestine much, if at all. There's a Pro-Palestinian group on campus for that.

Ah. If I make an observation:

The fans are always worse than the players.

I've noted above my opinion, but to hold a grudge against Israel because of Israel's fans is both very human and a mistake. Your call as to what you do about it, of course, but that's my observation.

165 DisturbedEma  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:14:08pm

re: #161 engineer cat

let me paraphrase you back, credit my Bubbe z'l- if I was on a desert island with my kinderlach, I'd build one shul to pray at and another to wave my hand at and say "they don't know from nothing"

166 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:14:22pm

re: #158 bratwurst

Likud is the decendent of Irgun. I judge them the same.

re: #159 researchok

Are you aware of the crap they did? King David Hotel Bombing, those 2 massacres, the assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte (which has made relations between Israel and Sweden real cold), among others.

And Likud, the modern descendant of Irgun, continues to whitewash at least the first and the last incident.

167 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:16:25pm

You know I don't comment much about the mess the middle east is.
But I want to make this clear.
I stand with the Nation of Israel 100%.

168 sagehen  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:17:02pm

re: #166 ProGunLiberal

Likud is the decendent of Irgun. I judge them the same.

re: #159 researchok

Are you aware of the crap they did? King David Hotel Bombing, those 2 massacres, the assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte (which has made relations between Israel and Sweden real cold), among others.

And Likud, the modern descendant of Irgun, continues to whitewash at least the first and the last incident.

Do you understand that the King David Hotel was British Army HQ? That wasn't a civilian target.

169 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:19:29pm

re: #164 kirkspencer

What really galled me about that was who that was against, by implications.

A sweet Pakistani Lady who has been at the forefront at trying to not let me be consumed by anger. Very pacifistic, she is someone who urged me to give mercy to the Republicans in those first 4 months after Utoya. Eventually, her efforts did succeed in part, a few months ago, after I graduated.

I saw that incident as an attack on her personally.

170 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:22:29pm

re: #166 ProGunLiberal

Are you aware the Irgun virtually always called to warn people to leave the area?

In any event, I repeat my question- do you really want to compare the Irgun to Hamas?

And let me be clear- I' do not bl;me the average Palestinian or Arab for the mess we find ourselves in. They, more than anyone else have been the biggest victims of Palestinians and Arab world corrupt, dysfunctional leaders.

They have been exploited and used to further not political agendas but power agendas.

I'll repeat:

imagine a school that gave each student a glass of alcohol every day. Each day, beginning at tender nursery school age, the child was encouraged to drink the beverage that would come to poison his spirit, soul and mind.

Suppose that beverage was from the well aged bottle of anti Semitism.

Suppose also that once that child downed that alcoholic beverage, the teacher refilled that glass with more alcohol. This time, the flavor is religious bigotry directed at non Jews.

Imagine once that glass of alcohol was consumed by young dutiful children, the glass was immediately refilled with the beverage from the bottle of anti western and anti democratic values.

After decades those children, now adults, go home every day, turn on the television and read the newspapers and they are fed more alcohol. They get yet more when their kids come home from school, and share the same familiar poisoned ‘fire water.’ They poison they are fed gets the God’s seal of approval when fed to them from the pulpit- or so they desperately need to believe.

Of course, to keep a drunk or a junkie hooked, it takes an ever increasing amount of poison to induce the same stupor that blinds the drunk or the junkie to his own surroundings and dysfunction. The supply of poison never ends.

After years of such ‘education,’ it would be reasonable to expect that there would be a lot of alcoholics in the Arab world deliberately poisoned by the hate and ideologies of dysfunctional and corrupt leaders. Like alcoholics and substance abusers, they will tell you they ‘have it under control‘ and that they ‘can quit anytime they want.‘ In the Arab world, that translates into, “We really are civilized, it’s only the injustices of others that causes us to behave the way we do. We seek justice.” They are blind to their own dysfunction, they are blind to their own deceit and remain so by embracing hate.

Israel will go on and prosper, succeed advance and progress.

And the Palestinians will do none of those things.

171 Lidane  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:22:30pm

Threads like this remind me that I really need to learn more about what the hell is going on with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with respect to the politics on the ground. I understand the conflict in the abstract but it's hard to find information that's truly objective.

172 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:23:08pm

re: #168 sagehen

How many civilians ended up dead there, exactly?

I would guess a substantial number.

173 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:23:35pm

re: #168 sagehen

What does that have to do with anything?

And despite denials, the British were warned in advance.

174 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:24:26pm

re: #172 ProGunLiberal

Less than the amount of Palestinians killed by Hamas in the year or so.

175 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:24:29pm

re: #170 researchok

Irgun gave no warning to Deir Yassin or Al Dawayima, now did they, and I seriously doubt Bernadotte had any either.

Irgun will always be a terrorist group to me. No if, ands, or buts.

176 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:24:54pm

re: #134 b_Snark

Do you really think Jewish lizards have a tougher time here?

lol, the point went that-a-way ^

177 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:25:00pm

re: #174 researchok

True. However, Irgun was a terrorist group, pure and simple.

178 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:25:01pm

re: #158 bratwurst

I am no fan of Likud, but to even imply it is in any way comparable to Hamas is ridiculous.

I agree but don't be too harsh on him. Plenty of other folks around here have made the same claim. It's not an unpopular opinion.

179 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:25:03pm

re: #171 Lidane

Threads like this remind me that I really need to learn more about what the hell is going on with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with respect to the politics on the ground. I understand the conflict in the abstract but it's hard to find information that's truly objective.

Meh. I have very little to add to these conversations. It's one of those rare instances when I'll allow myself some blissful ignorance.

180 DisturbedEma  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:25:26pm

re: #159 researchok

Torn between remarking on this topic for the sake of justice, cynical to do so because there are none so blind who refuse to see. . . I have a dissertation about the Jewish Community of Milwaukee to write (Golda was one of those peeps, so was Victor Berger) so all I can really say is that "suffering" and "responsibility" seem conflicted in the case of Gaza . . .

181 DisturbedEma  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:26:42pm

re: #166 ProGunLiberal

Ummm ya King David??? Held by British combatants AT THE TIME OF THE BOMBING, AND warnings about plans. . .next please???? and try to go BEYOND Wikki please. . .

182 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:26:51pm

re: #175 ProGunLiberal

As I noted, the Irgun were no angels.

They made teir share of mistakes- bad ones- but they in no way are even remotely equivalent to the Hamas regime with their ideologies of hate, violence, corruption and dysfunction.

They make Arafat look like Mr Rogers.

183 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:27:10pm

re: #163 ProGunLiberal

Probably right now because my friends in question are getting me frustrated with the situation.

Granted, this is more towards the entire media. The media doesn't tend to care about the Palestinians. I could probably count the number of reports that don't paint the Palestinians as evil from the media in the past 4 years on my hands.

Ignoring, say, the BBC, European media in general, and a significant proportion of US media, sure.

You always have these personal reasons for being 'frustrated' or whatever and saying dumb shit. Why can't you realize how black-and-white you're being when you're frustrated, and rethink it, try to empathize with the other 'side', and come to a synthesis? You'd be a much happier person, I think, if you didn't have this bizarre need to vehemently choose a side and play ultimate partisan.

184 Decatur Deb  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:27:20pm

re: #171 Lidane

Threads like this remind me that I really need to learn more about what the hell is going on with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with respect to the politics on the ground. I understand the conflict in the abstract but it's hard to find information that's truly objective.

LGF is a good place to learn about the complexities.
The middle of a firefight approaching 100 casualties is not a good time.

185 DisturbedEma  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:27:35pm

re: #177 ProGunLiberal

Gee really? So is Hamas by this statement. . .do your fucking research

186 Lidane  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:29:53pm

re: #184 Decatur Deb

LGF is a good place to learn about the complexities.
The middle of a firefight approaching 100 casualties is not a good time.

Well, true.

It's hard to come into these long debates and try to figure any of it out.

Oh well. I'm sure I'll get a handle on it at some point. Maybe not enough to involve myself in the discussions, but I'll settle for understanding the topic more.

187 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:30:02pm

re: #180 DisturbedEma

The moment an innocent dies in a war or conflict, that war becomes immral.

All wars and violent conflicts are immoral.

That said, it does not mean a war or conflict cannot be just.

Notwithstanding all the hype, the Israeli have been remarkably inept at genocide as claimed.

On the other hand, Palestinian leaders are not shy about their intentions and calls to genocide.

188 DisturbedEma  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:30:06pm

re: #182 researchok

But sputter sputter. . .they, the Jews, were STATELESS. . .sputter sputter. . .sorry, but come ON with this straw man/woman crap. If you want/need to equate the Iragun with Hamas, and STILL SUPPORT HAMAS, then you have to give Iragun the same consideration. . .and stop using it as a specious means to attack Israel as it is today. . .

189 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:30:53pm

re: #172 ProGunLiberal

How many civilians ended up dead there, exactly?

I would guess a substantial number.

How many civilians ended up dead at:

Sbarro's pizza parlor
Moment Cafe
Dolphinarium club
#135 bus Jerusalem
Park Hotel Passover seder
Ben Yehuda mall
Beit Yisrael yeshiva
Patt Junction bus stop
Megiddo station bus stop
Tel Aviv Central bus station
Maxim Restaurant
#2 bus Jerusalem

About the #2 bus:

On August 19, 2003 (22 Av 5763), a Hamas suicide bomber sent out by the organization's Hebron cell disguised himself as a Haredi Jew and detonated himself on a No. 2 Egged bus traveling through Jerusalem's Shmuel HaNavi neighborhood. He blew himself up after entering the back door.[2]The double-length bus was crowded with Orthodox Jewish children returning from a visit to the Western Wall. The huge explosion killed 7 children and 16 adults, among them an eight-months-pregnant woman, and injured more than 130 people. The bomb was spiked with ball-bearings designed to increase injuries on the crowded bus. Hamas said the bomber was a 29-year-old mosque preacher from the city of Hebron.

Because so many of the dead were young children,[3] the media dubbed it the "children's bus." According to an Associated Press report,

Strollers were scattered near the stricken bus, medics carried away children with blood-smeared faces and a baby girl died in a hospital before doctors could find her parents. At least five children were among the 18 dead in Tuesday's suicide bombing by a Palestinian militant who blew himself up on a Jerusalem bus. Forty children were among more than 100 people injured. The attack was the 100th Palestinian suicide bombing against Israelis since the latest round of fighting began in September 2000. The youth of the victims stands out in that grim list, and the government said the choice of target was particularly cold-blooded.[4]

Should all Palestinians be held accountable for that forever and ever?

190 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:33:12pm

Damn, I broke a banjo string.

191 DisturbedEma  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:34:48pm

re: #187 researchok

I disagree on many points, suffice to say that if as YOU claim, that Israel WAS intent on such an odious path, why did they leave in 2005? Why did they NOT bomb into oblivion? Ummm maybe because that is not their end game? Oh, SNAP how could THAT be. . .since we Jews are all so evil. . .///

192 kirkspencer  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:34:56pm

re: #171 Lidane

Threads like this remind me that I really need to learn more about what the hell is going on with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with respect to the politics on the ground. I understand the conflict in the abstract but it's hard to find information that's truly objective.

Yeah, do some digging. Everyone who does seems to come to different conclusions, but they all tend to recognize it's a tangled mess.

Me, I used to be (as someone upthread said) a 100% supporter of Israel. Then on one of my assignments I got to spend a couple of weeks with some soldiers from the IDF. Near the end we went drinking, and I learned that the bigotry of the Arabs is matched entire. Arabs are animals and swine (and yes, that), and killing a child is more important than killing an adult because the child had more years of threat ahead of him.

A later multinational exercise let me learn that this platoon wasn't unique. And with that I went digging, because I couldn't get how these soldiers and the image I had meshed.

There are some major cultural problems in Israel, problems that are going to do for them what slavery did here. And it appears a significant slice of the powers that be in Israel are fine with that.

Forced to choose between Israel and Iran, I'd go with Israel. I just wouldn't like it.

193 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:36:04pm

"Duelling atrocities" is never useful, and just leads to more bad banjo playing.

194 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:36:15pm

re: #191 DisturbedEma

I disagree on many points, suffice to say that if as YOU claim, that Israel WAS intent on such an odious path, why did they leave in 2005? Why did they NOT bomb into oblivion? Ummm maybe because that is not their end game? Oh, SNAP how could THAT be. . .since we Jews are all so evil. . .///

Um, are you replying to the wrong comment?

195 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:36:50pm

re: #194 Four More Tears

Missing the sarc tags, that's all.

196 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:37:29pm

re: #192 kirkspencer

Yeah, there is a real moral equivalence between the Israelis and Palestinians.

Right.
//

197 A Sockpuppet's Sockpuppet  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:37:33pm

re: #190 Vicious Babushka

Damn, I broke a banjo string.

There's still 3, 4 or 5 left.

198 DisturbedEma  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:37:40pm

re: #194 Four More Tears

sigh could be. . .so tired of this shit. . .just when I thought I coulde relax now that the election is over. . .nope

199 sagehen  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:38:01pm

re: #172 ProGunLiberal

How many civilians ended up dead there, exactly?

I would guess a substantial number.

"91 people were killed, most of them being staff of the hotel or Secretariat: 21 were first-rank government officials; 49 were second-rank clerks, typists and messengers, junior members of the Secretariat, employees of the hotel and canteen workers; 13 were soldiers; 3 policemen; and 5 were members of the public."

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

200 DisturbedEma  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:38:42pm

re: #192 kirkspencer

Umm, ok, I call you out now, can you defend your sample size?

201 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:39:53pm

re: #199 sagehen

And they were warned about a half hour before the bombing to leave.

As was customary with Irgun bombings.

202 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:40:13pm

The airstrike today that killed four children was very bad. Even being a supporter of Israel, it's very difficult to justify this, and it turns public opinion rapidly against Israel when it happens. Very unfortunate.

I'm also trying to understand what the goal of a ground operation would be, and finding it difficult to come up with a scenario that makes sense. Without committing to a full-scale war against Hamas, with all that entails (which would probably be impossible in the current climate), what could Israel really achieve with an invasion of Gaza?

And even worse is the prospect that it could turn into another lengthy occupation.

I agree with Obama that Israel absolutely has the right to defend against missile attacks, but it seems like an invasion wouldn't do much to achieve that end. At best, they can do enough damage to set Hamas back in the very short term, but there's no shortage of explosives and weaponry in the region and without a comprehensive plan to prevent Hamas from building up their arsenals, it's just going to happen all over again in the not very distant future.

This is what frustrates every President - there's no end game visible, no matter how you restructure the playing field.

203 sagehen  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:40:14pm

re: #175 ProGunLiberal

Irgun will always be a terrorist group to me. No if, ands, or buts.

And yet the Irgun leader Menachem Begin negotiated a lasting peace with Egypt.

204 kirkspencer  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:40:14pm

re: #191 DisturbedEma

I disagree on many points, suffice to say that if as YOU claim, that Israel WAS intent on such an odious path, why did they leave in 2005? Why did they NOT bomb into oblivion? Ummm maybe because that is not their end game? Oh, SNAP how could THAT be. . .since we Jews are all so evil. . .///

Well, they forced out the settlers in 2005. They continued occupation, and conducted attacks in 2006 and 2009. Israel has maintained a broad blockade since 2006.

I am uncomfortable saying Israel left given those facts.

205 DisturbedEma  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:40:44pm

re: #199 sagehen

Google challenge- was there any and I mean ANY warning about the attack?Hmmmm

206 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:41:58pm

re: #185 DisturbedEma

Both were. Glad we are in agreement. Alan Dershowitz outright stated that Irgun's goal was to encourage the fight of the local Arabs.

re: #189 Vicious Babushka

You obviously think so. See, I remember what you said about my friend, and I took that personally.

re: #201 researchok

Strange thing, they didn't give an exact location or anything. They wanted to have a fig leaf of morality.

207 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:42:57pm

re: #203 sagehen

So, he eventually felt guilt and decided to atone. That's good.

That's also one case.

208 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:43:52pm

re: #206 ProGunLiberal

You obviously think so. See, I remember what you said about my friend, and I took that personally.

What part of FRIENDS OF MY CHILDREN WERE KILLED don't you understand? And you're still whining about your little hurt feelings? Grow the fuck up.

209 sagehen  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:44:23pm

re: #205 DisturbedEma

Google challenge- was there any and I mean ANY warning about the attack?Hmmmm

Yes.

The Brits chose to ignore the warning.

210 kirkspencer  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:44:42pm

re: #200 DisturbedEma

Umm, ok, I call you out now, can you defend your sample size?

As an indicator to make me begin, yes I can defend it. Of three IDF units with which I worked, two wholly and one partially had members who displayed - who openly made - these sorts of statements when they were relaxed and comfortable with my presence.

"Appears a significant slice" is a statement of opinion, not statistical review.

211 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:44:49pm

All I know, really, about this situation is that a lot of innocents are dying. And many people think these deaths are necessary.

212 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:45:32pm

re: #211 Romantic Heretic

All I know, really, about this situation is that a lot of innocents are dying. And many people think these deaths are necessary.

The deaths of children and pregnant women are never necessary.

213 DisturbedEma  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:46:37pm

re: #210 kirkspencer

Sorry- need more than hearsay to believe you. . .can I talk to these people you "quote"?

214 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:47:28pm

re: #202 Charles Johnson

If there is a ground invasion it would be to find and destroy the long range Fajr missiles and to decpitate the Hamas leadership.

That won't stop the problem entirely but it will retard the program for aq couple of years as well.

It bears remembering the Fajr missiles could deliver chem/bio payloads.

Hamas has also made clear they would use those weapons.

Given the instability in Syria and the lunatic Hezbollah in Lebanon Israel has no choice but to take the threats very seriously.

215 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:47:36pm

I'd give my two cents on this subject but that would do the issue a disservice, so here are two quarters and a dime...

Yes, I believe this is a disproportionate response to rocket attacks. I fail to see what this accomplishes. These actions will only lead to more terrorists in the future.

However.

In broader terms, it seems to me that the Palestinians in Gaza (not so sure about the West Bank; are they calmer or something?) are incapable of governing themselves. There should not be rockets falling on Israeli cities. Their government needs to be held accountable for that.

Solution? Maybe Romney was right about this one...

216 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:48:37pm

re: #207 ProGunLiberal

Pity tyrannical Arab leaders- who have been responsible for the death of millions have yet to match that high bar.

217 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:48:58pm

re: #206 ProGunLiberal

You obviously think so. See, I remember what you said about my friend, and I took that personally.

How can you not get that she was saying she doesn't think so? How hard do you have to try to miss that?

218 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:49:42pm

re: #217 Obdicut

How can you not get that she was saying she doesn't think so? How hard do you have to try to miss that?

You don't understand, it's all about PLL and his feelings.

219 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:50:56pm

re: #208 Vicious Babushka

Ok. I admit stepping on your feelings with this was unnecessarily cruel. I should not have used that moment to make a point. And I am sorry for that.

220 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:51:00pm

re: #215 Four More Tears

There is no such thing as a disproportionate response to calls to genocide.

All wars and conflicts end with the use of disproportionate force.

When the cost of waginmg war becomes to high, wars end.

As Abba Eban noted,

Men and nations behave wisely when they have exhausted all other options.

221 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:51:51pm

re: #219 ProGunLiberal

Ok. I admit stepping on your feelings with this was unnecessarily cruel. I should not have used that moment to make a point. And I am sorry for that.

I was very upset at that time.

222 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:52:45pm

re: #206 ProGunLiberal

re: #201 researchok

Strange thing, they didn't give an exact location or anything. They wanted to have a fig leaf of morality.

That isn't what the Irgun said.

Or others.

223 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:52:50pm

re: #221 Vicious Babushka

As you have a right to be on that. I despise Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood too.

224 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:53:48pm

re: #223 ProGunLiberal

I don't blame you.

They have done more to hurt Muslims than Israelis ever could.

And therein lies the tragedy.

225 kirkspencer  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:54:05pm

re: #213 DisturbedEma

Sorry- need more than hearsay to believe you. . .can I talk to these people you "quote"?

1. I am not quoting. I am stating my experience.
2. It was in the early 1980s, and I was a SP4 in the rangers for two situations and in a pathfinder detachment for the other. For several reasons I do not have the names or ranks of the individuals.
3. You are free to disbelieve. However, I would point to this survey (haaretz link) and note that if these are the attitudes of high schoolers, it's likely to believe the soldiers who've actually fought the ugly fight would feel at least the same.

226 DisturbedEma  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:54:11pm

Going to my happy place of writing my dissertation- Ha Tikva!

227 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:55:15pm

re: #222 researchok

Still interesting you neglect one real important fact:

After the Bernadotte assassination, the Israeli Government of 1948 outlawed both Irgun and Lehi, defining them as terrorist groups.

So, was Ben-Gurion and his government wrong? Give me a yes or no answer.

228 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:55:59pm

Irgun has not existed for 64 years.

229 engineer cat  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:57:03pm

war is the continuation of politics by other means

carl von clauswitz

POLITICS, n. A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles.

ambrose bierce, 'devil's dictionary'

230 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:57:10pm

re: #225 kirkspencer

Would you like to see surveys of Palestinians and Arabs to see what they think of Israel?

As for the survey you cite, recent experience has shown Haaretz surveys to be at best, suspect.

Vicious Babushka knows a bit about that.

231 DisturbedEma  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:57:16pm

re: #225 kirkspencer

Sorry, I 'm an academic, I consider you N=1 and that is not a very good place to start. I don't play games with this, I ask you to take stock- can you really, with integrity, say you "know" the IDF, and the Jews in Israel because of this? If so, well, carry on, not much I can do to enlighten you, if not, maybe we could actually discuss things. . .just saying- gotta go finish chapter 6. . .Hooo RAH!

232 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:58:38pm

re: #202 Charles Johnson

what could Israel really achieve with an invasion of Gaza?


I've read some stuff about they want to blow up all the missiles and infrastructure then leave..

233 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:58:39pm

re: #220 researchok

There is no such thing as a disproportionate response to calls to genocide.

If that were true then Iran would be a parking lot.

234 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:58:59pm

re: #167 BenghaziHoops

Would you please call me?

235 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:59:15pm

re: #224 researchok

In the Muslim Brotherhoods case, the issue you describe, combined with the fact they are a Political Party that acts like Mitt Romney.

2 months ago I tried the whole "Know Your Enemy" thing for Yusuf Al-Qaradawi.

After a few hours of research, and seeing him somehow out flip-flop Mitt Romney I gave up.

236 TedStriker  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 5:59:30pm

This Gentile is going to bow out of this discussion for a couple of hours...at least until after 2200 CST, ater I get off of work.

A little heated for me...

237 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:00:09pm

re: #233 Four More Tears

It is true.

Iran doesn't even fear a mild response, never mind a full blown deal.

238 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:00:31pm

re: #232 BenghaziHoops

what could Israel really achieve with an invasion of Gaza?

I've read some stuff about they want to blow up all the missiles and infrastructure then leave..

And we'll all be back here doing this again in three years time.

239 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:01:18pm

re: #235 ProGunLiberal

After a few hours of research, and seeing him somehow out flip-flop Mitt Romney I gave up.

LOLOL

Line of the day

240 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:01:25pm

re: #230 researchok

Would you like to see surveys of Palestinians and Arabs to see what they think of Israel?

As for the survey you cite, recent experience has shown Haaretz surveys to be at best, suspect.

Vicious Babushka knows a bit about that.

It was actually Haaretz incorrectly reporting on survey results, not the survey itself.

241 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:02:41pm

re: #215 Four More Tears

In broader terms, it seems to me that the Palestinians in Gaza (not so sure about the West Bank; are they calmer or something?) are incapable of governing themselves. There should not be rockets falling on Israeli cities. Their government needs to be held accountable for that.

Solution? Maybe Romney was right about this one...

The West bank is run by the Palestinian Authority and controlled by the Fatah party, the Hamas supporters took over the Gaza strip and threw Fatah out. So now the Palestinians are actually split under two separate governments. :(

242 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:02:49pm

re: #238 Four More Tears

If need be, yes.

Sadly.

The Palestinians deserve better than power hungry, corrupt and dysfunctional leaders who consider them no more than fodder.

243 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:02:54pm

re: #239 researchok

I saw him have 6 positions on one issue.

That is simply amazing.

244 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:03:41pm

re: #237 researchok

Iran, IMHO does not value the lives of it's people, unlike Israel.

245 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:04:13pm

re: #237 researchok

It is true.

Iran doesn't even fear a mild response, never mind a full blown deal.

Just tell me what the goal of this is. What's going to happen in the coming days or weeks? Is this really just about blowing up rockets and infrastructure?

246 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:04:23pm

re: #242 researchok

Fodder, is a great word for this.

247 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:04:28pm

re: #244 Dancing along the light of day

Iran is also as unstable as Francium right now.

248 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:04:53pm

re: #233 Four More Tears

If that were true then Iran would be a parking lot.

Can't nuke Qom, the rest of Islam would not take kindly to that at all, I mean besides the whole genocide thing and what have you...

///

249 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:05:10pm

re: #240 Vicious Babushka

TY

I stand corrected.

250 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:05:47pm

re: #245 Four More Tears

It is about usurping Iranian influence.

To put it mildly.

251 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:06:02pm

re: #242 researchok

If need be, yes.

Sadly.

The Palestinians deserve better than power hungry, corrupt and dysfunctional leaders who consider them no more than fodder.

True. Honestly, my biggest problem with this is that it doesn't go far enough. Gaza needs to be policed. Am I suggesting a return to an occupied Gaza? I dunno, maybe I am.

252 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:06:38pm

re: #247 ProGunLiberal

Which is to mean, we just need to find a way to push Iran that extra couple inches over the cliff, governmentally speaking.

253 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:06:56pm

OK, I'll ask. What is

Francium

?

254 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:07:43pm

Crud. Forgot about Walking Dead...

255 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:08:29pm

re: #251 Four More Tears

And that is only going to make this worse.

256 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:10:16pm

re: #253 Dancing along the light of day

Francium, element #87.

An artificially produced element, it is highly radioactive and it's most stable isotopes' half-life is just 22 minutes.

257 Lidane  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:10:40pm

re: #253 Dancing along the light of day

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

258 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:10:50pm

re: #214 researchok

If there is a ground invasion it would be to find and destroy the long range Fajr missiles and to decpitate the Hamas leadership.

That won't stop the problem entirely but it will retard the program for aq couple of years as well.

It bears remembering the Fajr missiles could deliver chem/bio payloads.

Hamas has also made clear they would use those weapons.

Given the instability in Syria and the lunatic Hezbollah in Lebanon Israel has no choice but to take the threats very seriously.

I think it's a bit different. Gaza's rocket supply is probably already pretty much depleted. They can carry on maybe another week or so before they're all out. I think the last incursion into Gaza was supposed to draw out fighters to be killed in combat and possibly capture leaders but that didn't really happen. Fighters mostly stayed home, leaders fled or hid in UN facilities and hospitals. This article grabbed me for the perverse headline but it's worth checking out: Analysis: Hamas finds cause to smile under Israeli assault

Basically, the public support of Hamas comes from the appearance that they're fighting Israel. No matter that they're taking explosives out of their rockets to increase range. They aren't hitting any military targets and they're very lucky if a tiny fraction of 1% of the launches even injures an Israeli civilian. During periods when Hamas lays low they look like douchebags to the palestinians when Islamic Jihad launches some useless rockets. Public support depends on the public appearance of fighting, no matter how ineffectually. So why would Israel invade Gaza? Maybe because they know Hamas pussies aren't going to fight or resist. They'll hide and cower in schools and hospitals until the Israelis leave. Maybe that's the point.

259 Lidane  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:11:40pm

OK. Time for a late dinner. BRB.

260 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:13:06pm

re: #251 Four More Tears

Shrewd observation.

My belief is a re occupation won't change anything. That change has to come from the Palestinians themselves- and change is a messy, dirty business.

Hamas is killing them literally and figuratively.

If the subject really interests you, see some redacted work product:

Birth Of A Nation, A Garden Blooms

Temptations And Choices

The Poison

The Promise

The Third Rail Of Palestinian Failure

It bears remembering the Palestinians are victims here- of their own leadership and a wider Arab ideology which uses Israel to keep domestic attention focused outward.

261 kirkspencer  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:15:16pm

re: #230 researchok

Would you like to see surveys of Palestinians and Arabs to see what they think of Israel?

As for the survey you cite, recent experience has shown Haaretz surveys to be at best, suspect.

Vicious Babushka knows a bit about that.

Why is there this constant desire for zero-sum? I have never said hamas or any of the others are good. My statement is that there are indicators (not PROOF, but INDICATORS) that a large plurality of Israelis feel the same toward Arabs.

Or am I running into "this is my side right or wrong, and so it is right?"

262 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:15:35pm

re: #258 Killgore Trout

Or, as is likely, it is a combination of factors.

But make no mistake- the Syrian instability and their huge cache cnem/bio weapons are not matters the Israelis trifle with.

Or ever will.

263 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:17:14pm

I just thought of this:

On a scale from 1-10, how screwed up is Coney Island?

264 Sophist is the VillageGreen Preservation Society  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:18:47pm

re: #191 DisturbedEma

I disagree on many points, suffice to say that if as YOU claim, that Israel WAS intent on such an odious path, why did they leave in 2005? Why did they NOT bomb into oblivion? Ummm maybe because that is not their end game? Oh, SNAP how could THAT be. . .since we Jews are all so evil. . .///

If you would stop foaming at the mouth for two seconds, you might notice you're arguing against someone who is mostly on your side.

Notwithstanding all the hype, the Israeli have been remarkably inept at genocide as claimed.

On the other hand, Palestinian leaders are not shy about their intentions and calls to genocide.

It's pretty clear researchok is saying that if Israel is intent on genocide, they really suck at it (i.e. their actions are not those of one intent on genocide).

Aim, then fire, mmmkay?

265 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:21:07pm

re: #261 kirkspencer

I am not playing a zero sum game at all.

What I am trying to do is show the issues in context- and they are not equivalent.

I have written (recently) of Israeli flaws and faults when it comes to the Palestinians (and I have the hate mail to prove it). However, that in no way mitigates the culpability of decades of dysfunctional Palestinian leadership that have forced the Israelis hand.

When you have a group of terrorists who will attempt to use a mentally disabled child to deliver a suicide bomb, you have reached a level of dysfunction that cannot be fixed.

The only option is to get rid of them and start over.

The Palestinians deserve better than the leaders they have. And just about anything would be better.

266 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:21:20pm

re: #263 ProGunLiberal

1200

267 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:22:15pm

re: #264 Sophist is the VillageGreen Preservation Society

The sarc tags were missing.

Not to worry.

268 Sophist is the VillageGreen Preservation Society  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:26:41pm

re: #220 researchok

There is no such thing as a disproportionate response to calls to genocide.

Well, that's a stupid thing to say. Do you seriously believe that?

269 kirkspencer  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:26:49pm

re: #231 DisturbedEma

Sorry, I 'm an academic, I consider you N=1 and that is not a very good place to start. I don't play games with this, I ask you to take stock- can you really, with integrity, say you "know" the IDF, and the Jews in Israel because of this? If so, well, carry on, not much I can do to enlighten you, if not, maybe we could actually discuss things. . .just saying- gotta go finish chapter 6. . .Hooo RAH!

If you're an academic I ask two things. First, actually reread my remarks instead of putting in what you think I said. paraphrasing:
I received an (anecdotal) experience that jarred with my perception. I then experienced similar remarks two more times.

I decided to research the history of the region using multiple sources. Now apparently missed - I'm not an academic, but I do research. I'm an experienced librarian. I know a little bit about finding and weighting validity of resources.

Second, I ask that you actually do the research - the whole thing, with open mind. It's very hard when you've a personal interest (been there, done that). But I ask it.

The dirty reality is that the Israelis are not as bad as the Arabs. They are not, however, clean.

270 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:28:30pm

re: #266 researchok

So, they got screwed by Sandy. I hadn't caught how badly.

Apparently the damage estimates are clicking up.

Now at $63 Billion, with 131 dead. Ike killed 135 in the US (112 dead, 23 still missing), meaning Sandy came close to toppling Ike for the Worst since Katrina Award (Which, counting the still not found missing, is close to 2,000).

I think Sandy will end up toppling Katrina vis-a-vis cost. We got our asses handed to us by Sandy.

271 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:30:08pm

re: #270 ProGunLiberal

So, they got screwed by Sandy. I hadn't caught how badly.

Apparently the damage estimates are clicking up.

Now at $63 Billion, with 131 dead. Ike killed 135 in the US (112 dead, 23 still missing), meaning Sandy came close to toppling Ike for the Worst since Katrina Award (Which, counting the still not found missing, is close to 2,000).

I think Sandy will end up toppling Katrina vis-a-vis cost. We got our asses handed to us by Sandy.

Wasn't Katrina over 100 bil?

272 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:32:20pm

re: #271 Four More Tears

$108 Billion in 2005 dollars, $128 Billion counting inflation.

Considering the area Sandy screwed up, I imagine that Sandy will be giving Katrina a run for her money.

273 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:33:49pm

Lots of intangibles here to consider here also, will this weaken Fatah if they don't respond to help their fellows in Gaza? Will Hezbollah withdraw fighters from their support of Assad in Syria to join in the attacks on Israel? Will the possibility of ground action in Gaza siphon away some of the Jihadis coming to the region to join in the fighting in Syria? Will Assad get more breathing room due to the focus of the international community being shifted away from him?

That is the problem with the middle east everything seems to always effect everything else. Maybe we just need to ask Bush to go straighten all these messes out for us, just a few years ago he claimed he had the whole situation over there completely figured out, remember?

///

274 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:37:49pm

re: #270 ProGunLiberal

In a very big way.

And it isn't just the costs- there are still people without power and shelter or the resources to rectify the situation.

275 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:38:54pm

re: #271 Four More Tears

To use a phrase from a guy I watch for entertainment, Sandy was about 5 metric tons of "Fuck Your Couch."

276 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:41:48pm

re: #269 kirkspencer

The dirty reality is that the Israelis are not as bad as the Arabs. They are not, however, clean.

That is an absolute truth.

Like it or not.

No one has clean hands- just less dirty.

277 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:44:10pm

re: #274 researchok

In a very big way.

And it isn't just the costs- there are still people without power and shelter or the resources to rectify the situation.

LIVING IN FEMA CONCENTRATION DEATH CAMPS!!!
Just ask Chuck Norris!

278 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:46:29pm

re: #274 researchok

There is a whole lot more infrastructure affected by Sandy in the Northeast, than Katrina screwed up on the Central Gulf Coast.

At least with Sandy, she didn't do what Katrina did to Pass Christian.

279 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:49:05pm

re: #275 ProGunLiberal

Come to think of it, I would guess about 5 metric tons worth of couches have been screwed up.

280 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:58:27pm

Crickets.....

Where is everyone?

281 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 6:59:29pm

re: #280 ProGunLiberal

Crickets.....

Where is everyone?

At the featured post about the annihilation of Gaza

282 researchok  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:00:12pm

re: #280 ProGunLiberal

Feeding at the trough.
/

283 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:01:33pm

Evening, all. Did the ScarletPumperTroll get clubbed?

284 kmg  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:02:48pm

re: #93 ProGunLiberal

Do your Palestinian friends also want Israel to take responsibility for the Jenin massacre?

It never happened, by the way ;-)

285 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:08:02pm

re: #284 kmg

I am going for things are out-and-out wrong.

Jenin is whole heck of a lot more fuzzy than Deir Yassin, Al-Dawayima, and the assassination of Bernadotte.

286 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:08:19pm

re: #283 Dark_Falcon

Evening, all. Did the ScarletPumperTroll get clubbed?

It hasn't ever posted anything, all it does is ding dong ding

287 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:09:30pm

re: #286 Vicious Babushka

Ding-Dong Ditcher?

288 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:12:43pm

re: #287 ProGunLiberal

Ding-Dong Dipshit.

Fixed.

289 Amory Blaine  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:33:56pm
290 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:36:50pm

Copy.

291 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:38:30pm

re: #289 Amory Blaine

Hostess Mismanagement

That just about defines 'death spiral', doesn't it?

292 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:45:01pm
293 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:46:36pm

Sometimes WikiLeaks is useful. They're like Factcheck or Politifact. //

294 Kragar  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:51:51pm

re: #291 Dark_Falcon

That just about defines 'death spiral', doesn't it?

All the more proof that government regulations and lack of a true free market are what really kills businesses. If only they had been given more tax cuts.
///

295 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:53:27pm

floral you here still?

296 Mich-again  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:54:05pm

It probably didn't help Hostess that sugar tariffs in the US make it cost about twice the world market price.

297 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:54:46pm

re: #294 Kragar

All the more proof that government regulations and lack of a true free market are what really kills businesses. If only they had been given more tax cuts.
///

In real life, actually, Mitt Romney probably would have done a total reorg of the Hostess assets, and would have called them grossly mismanaged.

298 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:56:09pm

re: #295 BenghaziHoops

floral you here still?

You OK, Hoops? I know that the Colts defense absolutely failed todau, and gave up 59 points to New England. I'm just hoping you're not too mad at Tom Brady.

//

299 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:56:11pm

re: #295 BenghaziHoops

Physically or mentally?
LOL!

300 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:59:47pm

re: #299 Dancing along the light of day

Physically or mentally?
LOL!

Randall finally profiled you, Floral:

301 DisturbedEma  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:00:03pm

re: #284 kmg

stop now- don't cloud the mind with facts- if the truth about the King David bombing isn't sinking in, Jenin won't. . .

But seriously- it is really REALLY hard to fathom the disconnect between the dynamics here. . .smh really? Please link me to any source that documents ANY IDF or Igragun operation that blew up a bus, school, cafe, with a single suicide bomber in order to maximize loss of life. . .

302 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:00:08pm

re: #298 Dark_Falcon

You OK, Hoops? I know that the Colts defense absolutely failed todau, and gave up 59 points to New England. I'm just hoping you're not too mad at Tom Brady.

//

They didn't show it here.I watched Peyton Manning beat the chargers and last nights OU game was a barn burner we won 50-49 the game went down to the last 2 secs. Luck is going to be great also..Thunder won so i'm pretty happy

303 prairiefire  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:00:35pm

I just sold some Hostess stuff on Ebay for $40.00.

304 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:00:58pm

re: #299 Dancing along the light of day

Physically or mentally?
LOL!

Ring? ring?

305 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:01:46pm

re: #304 BenghaziHoops

Yup!

306 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:02:16pm

re: #303 prairiefire

I just sold some Hostess stuff on Ebay for $40.00.

Twinkies or Ho-Ho's?
LOL!

307 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:03:41pm

re: #296 Mich-again

It probably didn't help Hostess that sugar tariffs in the US make it cost about twice the world market price.

They weren't using HFCS?

308 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:05:28pm
309 Alexzander  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:06:16pm

Never had a twinkie or a ho-ho or any of those other toxic mimics of dessert in my life.

310 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:07:15pm

RE: 292 Gus

Must be one hell of a tunnel from the Sudan to Gaza.

311 Kragar  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:08:45pm

Hostess's failure was all because Little Debbie has been playing the long game.

312 bratwurst  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:10:32pm

re: #297 Dark_Falcon

In real life, actually, Mitt Romney probably would have done a total reorg of the Hostess assets, and would have called them grossly mismanaged.

You are literally the last Republican left venerating the name of Mitt Romney.

313 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:10:42pm

re: #310 SteveMcG

RE: 292 Gus

Must be one hell of a tunnel from the Sudan to Gaza.

Egypt.

314 engineer cat  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:10:56pm

re: #296 Mich-again

It probably didn't help Hostess that sugar tariffs in the US make it cost about twice the world market price.

i have to imagine that the florida sugar growers pay dearly to make sure that free market principals are for other people but not for them

315 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:11:57pm

The thing I can't wrap my head around is the settlements. What would you do if somebody forced youout of your home, shipped you off to some ghetto, and built new homes for themselves after they bulldozed yours? What would I do that the Palestinians aren't doing? I really can't come up with an answer.

316 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:12:55pm

re: #315 SteveMcG

The thing I can't wrap my head around is the settlements. What would you do if somebody forced youout of your home, shipped you off to some ghetto, and built new homes for themselves after they bulldozed yours? What would I do that the Palestinians aren't doing? I really can't come up with an answer.

I'd probably be one pissed off mother fucker.

317 Four More Tears  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:13:17pm

re: #315 SteveMcG

The thing I can't wrap my head around is the settlements. What would you do if somebody forced youout of your home, shipped you off to some ghetto, and built new homes for themselves after they bulldozed yours? What would I do that the Palestinians aren't doing? I really can't come up with an answer.

Those are different Palestinians.

I think...

318 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:13:51pm

re: #312 bratwurst

You are literally the last Republican left venerating the name of Mitt Romney.

Venerating, no. But I don't think he would have kept failing like the many CEOs of Hostess did. He either would have set things to right or liquidated years ago.

319 Political Atheist  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:15:07pm

re: #315 SteveMcG

Just keep in mind there was money to build real towns. But it got stolen by the warlord contingent. I can't blame Israel alone for the ghettos. relocation's? Absolutely. The ghettos and dismal day to day? Not so much.

320 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:15:15pm

re: #317 Four More Tears

Those are different Palestinians.

I think...

Correct. Israel pulled all of its settlers out of Gaza years ago. The people of Gaza do not have any sort of legitimate expropriation grievance.

321 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:16:01pm

re: #317 Four More Tears

Those are different Palestinians.

I think...

There's that too.

322 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:16:39pm

I would sort of be in the same sitch as Hostess. I had a little factory and I hung on to it longer than I should have. It just made the post-shutdown far worse. I kept thinking we could turn a corner.

324 Kragar  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:17:48pm
325 engineer cat  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:18:58pm

re: #315 SteveMcG

The thing I can't wrap my head around is the settlements. What would you do if somebody forced youout of your home, shipped you off to some ghetto, and built new homes for themselves after they bulldozed yours? What would I do that the Palestinians aren't doing? I really can't come up with an answer.

something that would ultimately make life better for them instead of continuing to do things that lead to things getting worse

the same goes for the israelis

326 jaunte  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:19:06pm

re: #323 Gus

Are we going to have another bowing outrage?

327 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:19:07pm

re: #324 Kragar

Image: Little+Debbie+s+Rockin+it_226bd5_4242671.jpg

The requested content cannot be loaded.
Please try again later.

Newman.

328 SteveMcG  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:19:23pm

Would they be like different Americans, in the case that I made in 315?

329 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:19:33pm

re: #326 jaunte

Are we going to have another bowing outrage?

Right quick. Get Twitchy Team on the phone.

330 jaunte  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:20:12pm

re: #329 Gus

"The president is slightly angled!"

331 bratwurst  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:20:14pm

re: #318 Dark_Falcon

Venerating, no. But I don't think he would have kept failing like the many CEOs of Hostess did. He either would have set things to right or liquidated years ago.

Seriously, you don't have to carry water for that guy one more minute. He was never worthy of you in the first place. He and his family and their dancing horse are going to live more than happily ever after...stand down already.

332 Kragar  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:20:50pm

re: #330 jaunte

"The president is slightly angled!"

"HE BOWED! NO REPUBLICAN EVER BOWED!"
/

333 Gus  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:21:36pm

re: #328 SteveMcG

Would they be like different Americans, in the case that I made in 315?

I said it before. It's not just the rockets being fired by Hamas. I think we're looking at a broken window situation in the Gaza Strip. And we helped create it. We need to fix that.

334 Eventual Carrion  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:45:06pm

re: #323 Gus

Image: 2012-11-19t040133z_1904302039_gm1e8bj0xdh01_rtrmadp_3_asia-obama-myanmar.png

He's bowing again. But this person is a lot prettier.

335 sagehen  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 8:50:02pm

re: #297 Dark_Falcon

In real life, actually, Mitt Romney probably would have done a total reorg of the Hostess assets, and would have called them grossly mismanaged.

He would have paid Bain a huge management fee out of company assets, then paid dividends to himself and the other investors, then cried to the court that there simply wasn't any money to cover pension obligations and could the Pension Guarantee Board pay it for them...

He'd walk away flush, and anybody who complained Ann would say "you people are just jealous."

336 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:07:35pm

re: #318 Dark_Falcon

Venerating, no. But I don't think he would have kept failing like the many CEOs of Hostess did. He either would have set things to right or liquidated years ago.

Way late, but...

An up because I think you are correct even though I would argue the the solution is incorrect... IOW, I think your analysis of his likely course of action is accurate but I also believe that there are many better long term solutions that could have been tried not the least of which would have been a worker buyout.

337 SidewaysQuark  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 7:44:22am

What? I had it on good authority from conserviderps that Obama was committed to allowing Israel to be destroyed. Are you telling me they LIED?


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