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What About Some Liberal Cuts To Government Spending?

A few suggestions…
Opinion • Views: 23,879

As the “fiscal cliff” looms unthreateningly, media hype notwithstanding, I’ve been wondering if liberals like me have ever suggested broad government spending cuts. I’m sure they have, somewhere, but you rarely see any in the mainstream media doing so, and a quick google search shows only one prominent blog post that even comes close to qualifying: Derek Thompson’s “The Liberal Case For Cutting Domestic Spending”, on Ezra Klein’s blog-

You don’t see many liberal economists writing about the best places to cut domestic spending in the next few years. But maybe they should be — if only for the selfish reason that it might clear the way for their spending ideas. When I asked Adam Hersh, an economist from the Center for American Progress, to identify some non-security discretionary items he could part with in exchange for infrastructure money, he acknowledged that the pickings might be slim. But there are still pickings.

“You could shift spending from activities with low stimulating multipliers to higher job multipliers — like shifting timber subsidies toward infrastructure and R&D,” Hersh said. Cut farm subsidies, eliminate duplicate and wasteful domestic programs, and throw in the president’s promise to freeze non-security discretionary spending and federal wages, and you’ve got tens of billions of dollars that could offset spending projects under the conservative House’s cut-go rules. Who knows if this would lure Republicans across the aisle. But what’s the harm in identifying cuts that would make important initiatives more palatable to moderates?

I have nothing against such neutral ways of shifting spending from less to more productive programs, but it seems to me that liberals should be able to identify a lot of government spending that could be cut outright. Here are just a few ideas (including ones involving the military), each of which I’m willing to be convinced would not work or should not be done-

1) Cut military programs (e.g., big-ticket weapons systems that the Pentagon has said it does not need or want). The concern about displaced military-industrial workers could be eased by providing modest tax credits for converting military factories to more productive uses. And, of course, close unnecessary bases overseas, and try to avoid being drawn into endless conflicts.

2) End the war on drugs (a no-brainer, dude). This would also cut the prison-industrial complex. Shift resources to less expensive medical treatment options for drug-abusing addicts.

3) Cut subsidies to Big Oil, Big Agriculture, and any other industry that is obviously self-sufficient.

4) Cut Homeland Security. I’m all for a strong Intelligence community, but does anyone really believe that, since 9/11, there has been no serious waste and duplication of effort in this area?

5) Drastically simplify the tax code. Doing so should reduce the size of the IRS, and free up private resources for more productive uses than tax-minimization, thereby increasing revenues. This is an issue liberals should champion just as loudly as conservatives (if not more so, since the current tax system has been constructed by special interests with the money to lobby Congress and give big donations to candidates).

6) Control medical costs directly. Anyone who has ever looked at a medical bill knows that the price of medical goods and services is ridiculously high. The Affordable Care Act already limits the profits that medical insurance companies can make. Next, pass a law to limit the profits of medical equipment suppliers, drug companies, and perhaps hospitals. (I’m leaving medical personnel off this list, but only because we presently need to encourage more people to enter those professions). This would significantly reduce Medicare and Medicaid expenses, and hence spending. (I realize that profits have to be high enough to encourage private R&D, but particularly over the next thirty or forty years of baby-boom retirement, these sectors should be highly profitable even under reasonable controls).

7) Increase the age of Medicare eligibility by a year or two. I know this is not a respectable suggestion in some liberal circles, but it seems to me a reasonable response to the projected Medicare deficit and significantly increasing life-spans. If The Affordable Care Act is properly implemented, most seniors could probably afford to purchase private medical insurance for at least a couple of years, and those who couldn’t should be eligible for subsidies.

8) Election reform. Limit election seasons to a month or so, by law, and limit candidates’ election fund-raising to a couple of months prior to the (shortened) election season. This might make politicians more productive, and hence save the tax-payer a little money. Also, to decrease the cost of elections and increase access, develop secure ways of voting via the internet (if and only if doing so is technically feasible).

These are just a few ideas off the top of my head, and there are probably problems with each of them that I haven’t recognized (not the least of which being the lack of political will to see them realized). But surely there are hundreds of other sensible cuts liberals could propose, and thereby help to counter the conservative charge that liberals just want Big Government. Suggestions, anyone?

(Cross-posted at blogherenow.)

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489 comments

1 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 5:39:52pm

Great post - one promotion coming up.

2 engineer cat  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 5:45:12pm

props to my old buddy for an excellent post

3 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 5:51:46pm

I was babbling about this last night and would add cutting or consolidating the myriad of federal law enforcement agencies. The DEA and ATF also stand out. A more progressive idea I have is to further consolidate many of the various military branches.

4 glnmruser  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 5:52:11pm

Extremely well said. We need to downsize our military and I really think that we have to figure out how to move our military technical expertise into more productive functions. These folks are so highly skilled- if you could move them into non-military technical development America would zoom past the rest of the world in months. Some bipartisan strategy here would be a boon for America- bucks saved and bucks made.

5 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 5:53:13pm

Excellent ideas.

Unfortunately, we have to figure out how to convince those profiting from the status quo and get them out of office first.

Way too much money involved in the War on Drugs/Prison Industry to make it an easy change.

I listed to a segment on NPR Sateliitte Radio this evening in which the new President of Mexico wants to find a way to legally export Pot--as it is decriminilized in some parts of the world and U.S. I wondered how long it would take the Cartel Bosses to get rid of him for trying.

6 b_sharp  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 5:53:56pm

Makes sense to me.

7 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 5:54:34pm

re: #3 Gus

I like us having the four, thank you very much.

Though on Federal Law Enforcement, you would be correct.

We still need to be heavily armed because of China.

8 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 5:55:14pm

If an Executive Summary of what Congress needs to accomplish before the New Year was published, would it be referred to as the Fiscal Cliff Notes?

Thank you! I'll be here all week! Try the veal and don't forget to tip your server and bartender!

9 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 5:55:58pm

re: #7 ProGunLiberal

I like us having the four, thank you very much.

Though on Federal Law Enforcement, you would be correct.

We still need to be heavily armed because of China.

Yeah. I accept that the USA isn't far advanced along social and emotional development to see beyond having four branches.

10 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 5:56:12pm

re: #7 ProGunLiberal

I like us having the four, thank you very much.

Though on Federal Law Enforcement, you would be correct.

We still need to be heavily armed because of China.

what kind of war will we be fighting with China?

11 bratwurst  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 5:56:45pm

re: #7 ProGunLiberal

We still need to be heavily armed because of China.

We could make some judicious cuts and still be very heavily armed.

12 dragonath  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 5:57:58pm

Intelligence is by nature an opaque outfit, but surely there is some redundancy between the various agencies.

I really don't think the Coast Guard should be under Homeland Security purview.

13 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 5:58:03pm

Completely OT, but Jimi Hendrix would have been 70 years old today.

Image: JimHendrixBrianJones.jpg

14 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 5:58:47pm

re: #10 Holidays are Family Fun Time

A) Deterence against continued encroachment on its neighbors.

B) If my hunch is correct, when China begins to capsize, to drive a final stake through the government and facilitate a disintingration.

re: #9 Gus

Well, all four of the branches have a specific role. The only unusual branch is the Marines, and that is because our Marine Corps. are significantly larger than other nations.

15 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 5:58:50pm

re: #11 bratwurst

We could make some judicious cuts and still be very heavily armed.

Somehow, I don't think any way with China will be traditional. We need to spend any monies on R&D, forecasting, and educating a future military--not on tanks and airplanes.

16 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 5:59:32pm

re: #12 dragonath

The number of US Intel Agencies is absolutely hilarious. Isn't there a list of them on Wikipedia?

17 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 5:59:45pm

re: #14 ProGunLiberal

A) Deterence against continued encroachment on its neighbors.

B) If my hunch is correct, when China begins to capsize, to drive a final stake through the government and facilitate a disintingration.

re: #9 Gus

Well, all four of the branches have a specific role. The only unusual branch is the Marines, and that is because our Marine Corps. are significantly larger than other nations.

The roles wouldn't change within a combined force. But I understand that 1,000 years from now we'll still have the Marines. I'm sure of it. //

18 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:00:08pm

re: #13 Charles Johnson

He was the theme of today's NYT crossword puzzle.

19 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:00:09pm

re: #15 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Railguns look to be an interesting feature. We need counter measures against them though.

20 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:00:42pm

re: #14 ProGunLiberal

A) Deterence against continued encroachment on its neighbors.

B) If my hunch is correct, when China begins to capsize, to drive a final stake through the government and facilitate a disintingration.

re: #9 Gus

Well, all four of the branches have a specific role. The only unusual branch is the Marines, and that is because our Marine Corps. are significantly larger than other nations.

I disagree, China will continue to grow and need space for it's people. They've been moving in to Afrika. I don't think it will be a traditional military type of conflict. It will be one of economics. They'll buy there way in, legally. And by the time they do, we may be fine with it.

21 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:03:41pm

ahhhh, my internet time is being interrupted by family --

bbl

22 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:05:56pm

re: #17 Gus

In any case, even with the China thing, we only need to focus on the Navy and the Air Force.

re: #20 Holidays are Family Fun Time

So, we allow Lebensraum? No, not acceptable. Hell, I've seen this:

Ministry of State Security Formerly a bureau under the Ministry of Public Security, it was raised to Ministry status in June 1983. MSS is the principal Chinese agency responsible for intelligence collection and counterintelligence. According to Western intelligence sources, MSS operates intelligence activities in more than 170 cities in close to 50 countries through its Foreign Affairs Bureau. MSS reach beyond China allows it to pursue Chinese dissidents in foreign countries and establish cover for Chinese diplomats and agents who are planted among the 15,000 Chinese students who attend U.S. universities, as well as thousands of Chinese who travel to the U.S. as business representatives, or members of scientific, academic, and cultural delegations

That bolded part makes me want to call my Senator and call for legislation banning that. Also, we need to counter-act China's Propaganda about it coming back to being the primary power. China has never been anything more than a second rate power.

Many Muslims I now are constantly angry about Palestine. I am the same way with my Uyghurs brethen, and the Tibetans.

23 Stanghazi  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:09:20pm

Defense contractors and suppliers. Audit the system.

I did the accounting for a guy who sold things to the Navy offices on base here. He would actually go to home depot for stuff and then mark it up.

The buyers for the Navy had their own credit cards. Each purchase limit was 3500. No questions asked.

24 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:10:24pm
25 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:11:10pm

re: #24 Gus

Perhaps you want to send a bigger picture.

I can't read .5 font.

26 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:11:21pm

re: #9 Gus

Yeah. I accept that the USA isn't far advanced along social and emotional development to see beyond having four branches.

Besides if you combine them you end up with ridiculous names like China has...
The Peoples Liberation Army Navy

/

27 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:11:36pm

re: #25 ProGunLiberal

Perhaps you want to send a bigger picture.

I can't read .5 font.

Right click view image.

28 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:12:18pm

The "stamp" police probably has their own SWAT teams and tanks.

//

29 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:12:39pm

Let's cut this. But we need that! Let's cut this. But we need that! Let's cut this. But we need that! Let's cut this. But we need that! Let's cut this. But we need that! Let's cut this. But we need that! Let's cut this. But we need that! Let's cut this. But we need that! Let's cut this. But we need that! Let's cut this. But we need that! Let's cut this. But we need that! Let's cut this. But we need that! Let's cut this. But we need that! Let's cut this. But we need that! Let's cut this. But we need that! Let's cut this. But we need that! Let's cut this. But we need that! Let's cut this. But we need that!

America.

30 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:14:11pm

Office of Creosote Enforcement
Federal Cheese Police and Inspection Agency

//

31 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:14:48pm

re: #29 Gus

We need to can the F-35. Also, a number of stupid Navy projects. They are way over cost and I would argue hurt our security.

32 Amory Blaine  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:15:15pm
33 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:15:37pm

re: #22 ProGunLiberal

On this issue, I have a Turkish Mindset. And the attitude and brutality to match.

34 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:16:15pm

re: #31 ProGunLiberal

We need to can the F-35. Also, a number of stupid Navy projects. They are way over cost and I would argue hurt our security.

Too late to can the F-35. We're too far along and might as well finish.

35 recusancy  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:17:01pm

Great post by Bruce Bartlett on American Conservative: Revenge of the Reality-Based Community

36 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:17:21pm

re: #34 Gus

Then Lookheed should be punished for doing it's ratcheting up of prices. And those planes better damn work.

37 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:18:07pm

re: #36 ProGunLiberal

Then Lookheed should be punished for doing it's ratcheting up of prices. And those planes better damn work.

Would probably cost the federal government more to punish them then just let things slide. That's how the feds work. :D

38 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:19:09pm

re: #35 recusancy

And that guy is a whacko too.

Believes FDR covered up warnings about Pearl Harbor. Truther for another event.

39 TedStriker  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:19:12pm

re: #22 ProGunLiberal

In any case, even with the China thing, we only need to focus on the Navy and the Air Force.

re: #20 Holidays are Family Fun Time

So, we allow Lebensraum? No, not acceptable. Hell, I've seen this:

That bolded part makes me want to call my Senator and call for legislation banning that. Also, we need to counter-act China's Propaganda about it coming back to being the primary power. China has never been anything more than a second rate power.

Many Muslims I now are constantly angry about Palestine. I am the same way with my Uyghurs brethen, and the Tibetans.

As a nation, China has been playing the game a helluva lot longer than we have; trying to maintain that they are a "second-rate power" is to our peril.

As far as your "Lebensraum" comparison goes, it doesn't really stand up. As long as it's not at the barrel of a gun (and as long as the influence of the Chinese external security organs can be blunted), anyone should be able to live where they want to live, within reason, of course

40 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:19:39pm

re: #37 Gus

I think they should be slapped with a 25-50% of the current cost per plane fine.

41 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:21:02pm

re: #12 dragonath

Intelligence is by nature an opaque outfit, but surely there is some redundancy between the various agencies.

They sure do manage to suck up a lot of money, about $225 billion of the "black" defense budget for "security," that is not part of the regular $676 billion defense budget, just for this year. That is on top of all the other agencies that have their own budgets for "security," we are spending way too much on this.

Do police departments across the country really need drones and armored vehicles paid for by Homeland security? Sure I want the government to try to keep us safe us much as the next guy but this has gotten ridiculous. Where is the oversight? Where is the accountability? They have gotten anything they asked for since 9/11 with barely a question being raised, it is past time to start reigning these guys in a little.

42 researchok  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:23:31pm

Here is a great story from the CBC on the F35 debacle.

Air Force's F-35 recommendation was missing key information

A paragraph from the story is illuminating:

“If Canada is still buying it, they’ll be paying $200 million plus [per plane],” Sprey tells the fifth estate. “Because among other things, the promised quantity will never happen. Nations will drop out, lots of nations won’t be able to afford it and even the U.S. is going to keep on cutting back the buy, and as the buy is cut back, the cost is going to keep going up.”

43 Locker  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:26:03pm

Rarely do this however.... on this issue, you speak for me. I agree, not only with your premise but with the specifics of your list.

Well done sir.

44 researchok  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:26:43pm

re: #41 watching you tiny alien kittens are

All these agencies protect their own turf ferociously. Don't look for change soon.

It's all about power. There is not as much incentive to share intel as we are led to believe. If one group has information another does not, they have power- and they want access to highest levels, not through 'channels' but direct access.

Perceived (and real) power.

45 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:26:56pm

re: #30 Gus

Office of Creosote Enforcement
Federal Cheese Police and Inspection Agency

//

Wait a second, creosote was banned, they don't even make it in this country anymore. Shouldn't that be something the Customs people do, stop creosote from coming in?

46 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:28:32pm

re: #39 TedStriker

Historically, they are a second rate power. The Caliphate whipped them. They were a tributary state to Tibet for a time in the past. And among the groups who have conquered them include the Mongols, the Manchu, and the Uyghur Turks.

And I will never respect the PRC. Ever. They have and are committing Genocide. For that, they need to be reduced in size to what they were under the Han Dynasty, minus Korea.

47 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:28:33pm

re: #44 researchok

All these agencies protect their own turf ferociously. Don't look for change soon.

It's all about power. There is not as much incentive to share intel as we are led to believe. If one group has information another does not, they have power- and they want access to highest levels, not through 'channels' but direct access.

Perceived (and real) power.

Especially the, um -- looks around -- the, uh, um, unions. :P

48 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:28:34pm

re: #31 ProGunLiberal

We need to can the F-35. Also, a number of stupid Navy projects. They are way over cost and I would argue hurt our security.

The F-35 was developed with our allies though, England, Japan, and I'm not sure who else already have orders in for them.

49 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:30:45pm

re: #42 researchok

Here is a great story from the CBC on the F35 debacle.

Air Force's F-35 recommendation was missing key information

A paragraph from the story is illuminating:

Let's see. Wiki says the US plans on purchasing 2,443 F-35s. If we do an average flyaway cost of $200,000,000 per plane we're looking at $488,600,000,000.

That doesn't include all the rest. So about 1 trillion dollars all told.

50 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:30:59pm

re: #32 Amory Blaine

Caption This Pic

"Guess it's not my week to quit sniffing glue."

or

"Anne and I had a nooner. I've got a lot of free time right now."

51 Amory Blaine  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:31:51pm

Former Florida GOP leaders say voter suppression was reason they pushed new election law

A new Florida law that contributed to long voter lines and caused some to abandon voting altogether was intentionally designed by Florida GOP staff and consultants to inhibit Democratic voters, former GOP officials and current GOP consultants have told The Palm Beach Post.

Republican leaders said in proposing the law that it was meant to save money and fight voter fraud. But a former GOP chairman and former Gov. Charlie Crist, both of whom have been ousted from the party, now say that fraud concerns were advanced only as subterfuge for the law’s main purpose: GOP victory.

52 researchok  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:32:26pm

re: #47 Gus

Seriously, the overlapping agencies and their receptive black budgets are an enormous drain.

And post 9/11, the situation has mushroomed.

The WAPO did a whole series on this- I'll try and find it.

53 bratwurst  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:32:29pm

re: #36 ProGunLiberal

Then Lookheed should be punished for doing it's ratcheting up of prices. And those planes better damn work.

I think it would be easier at this point for you to only mention large groups of people that don't deserve to be "punished" in your particular world view.

54 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:33:22pm

re: #52 researchok

Seriously, the overlapping agencies and their receptive black budgets are an enormous drain.

And post 9/11, the situation has mushroomed.

The WAPO did a whole series on this- I'll try and find it.

Federal Paintbrush Police

//

55 Mattand  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:34:37pm

re: #32 Amory Blaine

Caption This Pic

"More poor people. Fucking wonderful."

56 researchok  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:34:41pm

Gus, see this:

Top Secret America.

And that is just what was published.

57 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:35:20pm
58 jaunte  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:35:43pm

Good photo essay:

Alyssa lives with her parents in Kentucky. She is an only child but her grandmother, uncle, and orphaned cousin live close by. Their small, shabby house, heated only by a wooden stove, is falling apart. The ceiling in Alyssa's bedroom is beginning to cave in. The family would like to buy a trailer if they could afford it. Alyssa's mother works at McDonald's and her father works at Walmart; everything they earn goes toward bringing up their daughter.

59 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:36:02pm

re: #53 bratwurst

Lockheed Martin must have done some corruption in all of this. They breaking the back of the US fiscally.

And, the only other group I am talking about right now is the Chinese. Though I don't like the Saudi Royal Family, or the kleptocratic regimes on its eastern side, but then, who doesn't?

60 BishopX  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:37:19pm

A reform of how we handle classified information is also probably a good idea. We've granted security clearances to almost 5 million individuals. That's a not insignificant expenditure of time and effort right there.

Edit: Gus and Researchok apparently had the same thought before I did. That'll teach me to post without finishing reading.

61 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:37:58pm

re: #56 researchok

Gus, see this:

Top Secret America.

And that is just what was published.

Thanks. Came across that during the summer. Bookmarked for future reference. Unfortunately, once you create and agency in this country it's close to impossible to even touch it.

62 glnmruser  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:38:06pm

I am not so concerned with China. They just landed a plane on a carrier in calm seas that was not moving. Maybe I am too optimistic but I just don't see China as being anything we can't handle for the next 20 years. Maybe I am wrong, but what is the evidence that I am? Russia is out of the picture- and China has much bigger internal problems than anything facing them in the foreseeable future. We have an amazing military with no opponents. My read- correct me if I am wrong.

63 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:39:59pm

re: #62 glnmruser

I am not so concerned with China. They just landed a plane on a carrier in calm seas that was not moving. Maybe I am too optimistic but I just don't see China as being anything we can't handle for the next 20 years. Maybe I am wrong, but what is the evidence that I am? Russia is out of the picture- and China has much bigger internal problems than anything facing them in the foreseeable future. We have an amazing military with no opponents. My read- correct me if I am wrong.

You are not wrong.
Too many in the GOP need an existential enemy and China is the flavor of the century.

64 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:40:09pm

re: #46 ProGunLiberal

Found the perfect analog.

Tang Dynasty China circa 900 ACE + Liaoning, Jilin, and Heilongjiang Provinces.

65 researchok  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:40:20pm

re: #57 Gus

See the WAPO map

It starts with 3050 counter terror organizations pre 9/11

And goes on from there- the numbers will astonish you

66 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:41:09pm

re: #62 glnmruser

I'm hoping the PRC cracks and implodes.

Then, maybe the Muslim World will snap out of its stupor and support the Uyghurs in throwing off the PRC.

67 Joanne  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:41:23pm

re: #50 austin_blue

"Anne and I had a nooner. I've got a lot of free time right now."

Ick. Which applies to both of them.

The concept of their flesh...commingling...(shudder) I didn't know bots had sex.

68 researchok  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:41:36pm

re: #61 Gus

Cleaning that up would have a huge impact on the deficit- but no one talks about it.

Sacred cows.

69 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:42:19pm

re: #59 ProGunLiberal

Lockheed Martin must have done some corruption in all of this. They breaking the back of the US fiscally.

And, the only other group I am talking about right now is the Chinese. Though I don't like the Saudi Royal Family, or the kleptocratic regimes on its eastern side, but then, who doesn't?

It's called 'lowballing', PLL. Contractors knowingly bid too low in order to get the Congress to green light production of a weapon system, and then come back for more money later, citing "development problems" and "cost overruns". I saw way too much of that selling defense conferences.

70 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:44:10pm

re: #67 Joanne

Ick. Which applies to both of them.

The concept of their flesh...commingling...(shudder) I didn't know bots had sex.

Bot sex. Very 2012.

71 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:45:21pm

re: #32 Amory Blaine

Caption This Pic

I'm going to go park this van down by the river.

72 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:45:25pm

re: #69 Dark_Falcon

So has my Dad. He works for Boeing.

That horsey-crap needs to be stopped.

In terms of how I am on China, am I on your right? Even though my reasons for it are to the left. I would prefer India or the EU being the balancing power to us.

73 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:46:10pm

Carriers, we've been doing it for a long time.
The Chinese, not so much.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

74 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:46:46pm

re: #32 Amory Blaine

Caption This Pic

"I'm blurry due to how I am constantly changing position on every issue."

75 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:47:15pm

re: #68 researchok

Cleaning that up would have a huge impact on the deficit- but no one talks about it.

Sacred cows.

Yeah. Forget about it.

76 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:47:38pm

re: #62 glnmruser

I am not so concerned with China. They just landed a plane on a carrier in calm seas that was not moving. Maybe I am too optimistic but I just don't see China as being anything we can't handle for the next 20 years. Maybe I am wrong, but what is the evidence that I am? Russia is out of the picture- and China has much bigger internal problems than anything facing them in the foreseeable future. We have an amazing military with no opponents. My read- correct me if I am wrong.

China is advancing quickly. And remember that their CV is nuclear power just as our are, and they're planning to build more. The Chinese Navy (it is no longer called the People's Liberation Army-Navy) is going to be a regional powerhouse, able to do us serious damage in its own area at least. We must be strong enough to meet it.

One thing I disagree with PLL on is that you don't want to neglect the Army when in comes to China. We don't want to invade China, of course, but we want to be able to move Army formations swiftly to Asia to do things like protect and defend Taiwan and South Korea. Ground troops aren't the main focus of PACCOM, but they are still important.

77 EPR-radar  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:49:36pm

Item #5 on this list is not easy. Defining income is not easy, so an income tax is always going to be complicated. Then all the special interests want preferences for their particular activities...

Somewhat OT: I'd like to see a faction in the Democratic party stake out this basic platform on economic policy.

1) Wealth and income inequality in the US is a major problem and needs to be addressed.

2) We can do this the easy way or the hard way.

3) The easy way is for the masters of the universe to stop breaking the back of labor in the country, stop outsourcing, start hiring, pay better wages etc.. It is ridiculous that Walmart employees are often on public assistance because their wages are so pitifully low.

4) The hard way is to bring back some old-time marginal tax rates (and actually collect on them), and back it up with a beefy estate tax on amounts over a million or so (this also needs to be a tax that is actually collected.

Stuff like this would never happen, but it would provide a useful counter-balance for the hard-right nonsense that passes for mainstream US economic policy.

78 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:49:43pm

re: #76 Dark_Falcon

See, all I would like to be able to trash the PRC and leave. I am likely far harsher than you on this, again, because of the Uyghurs and Tibetans.

79 Stanghazi  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:50:11pm
80 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:50:21pm

re: #77 EPR-radar

What about doing 3&4 at the same time.

81 Stanghazi  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:52:00pm

re: #32 Amory Blaine

Caption This Pic

He really looks wrecked. Don't think he's showered since the 6th.

82 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:52:14pm

re: #73 Varek Raith

Carriers, we've been doing it for a long time.
The Chinese, not so much.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The first USS Langley was actually lost to an Asian power, crippled by bombs dropped by the D3A1 Carrier Bombers (dive bombers) of Adm. Nagumo Chuchi's Kido Butai, specifically from Soryu and Hiryu.

83 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:52:33pm

Yes, because China is only expanding its navy because of the USA.

//

84 EPR-radar  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:52:56pm

re: #80 ProGunLiberal

What about doing 3&4 at the same time.

If I were in a position to make promises (or threats), my position would be that enough of #3 would avoid the need for #4, but then I've grown soft-hearted in my dotage...

86 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:53:56pm

re: #83 Gus

No, they expanding it to bully the nations nearby and the fact that the government of the PRC has an imperial mindset.

We should combine Guam and the Northern Marianas Islands and give them statehood, out of spite.

87 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:54:44pm

re: #73 Varek Raith

Carriers, we've been doing it for a long time.
The Chinese, not so much.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Two other things to know about the Langley:

1. She was built at Mare Island Naval Shipyard, which later employed Hoosier Hoops.

2. She used Turbo-Electric drive, which is used for many Hybrid buses nowadays.

88 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:54:52pm

re: #86 ProGunLiberal

No, they expanding it to bully the nations nearby and the fact that the government of the PRC has an imperial mindset.

We should combine Guam and the Northern Marianas Islands and give them statehood, out of spite.

When was the last time China invaded a country?

89 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:55:33pm

re: #86 ProGunLiberal

No, they expanding it to bully the nations nearby and the fact that the government of the PRC has an imperial mindset.

We should combine Guam and the Northern Marianas Islands and give them statehood, out of spite.

"Never do an enemy a small injury."

- Niccolo Machiavelli

90 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:55:41pm

re: #76 Dark_Falcon

China is advancing quickly. And remember that their CV is nuclear power just as our are, and they're planning to build more. The Chinese Navy (it is no longer called the People's Liberation Army-Navy) is going to be a regional powerhouse, able to do us serious damage in its own area at least. We must be strong enough to meet it.

One thing I disagree with PLL on is that you don't want to neglect the Army when in comes to China. We don't want to invade China, of course, but we want to be able to move Army formations swiftly to Asia to do things like protect and defend Taiwan and South Korea. Ground troops aren't the main focus of PACCOM, but they are still important.

We have 12 carrier battle fleets.

91 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:56:15pm

Benghazi China

92 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:56:40pm

re: #88 Gus

When was the last time China invaded a country?

1979, when they invaded Vietnam. They did have much luck in that invasion, as they were attacking a more experienced army on its own ground in terrain that heavily favored the defender.

93 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:56:50pm

re: #90 Varek Raith

We have 12 carrier battle fleets.

China has a used Russian carrier and they're barely getting started.

We're doomed.

94 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:57:07pm

re: #87 Dark_Falcon

Two other things to know about the Langley:

1. She was built at Mare Island Naval Shipyard, which later employed Hoosier Hoops.

2. She used Turbo-Electric drive, which is used for many Hybrid buses nowadays.

Hi D_F!

95 Interesting Times  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:57:12pm

The biggest threat by far that China poses to the world is the obscene number of coal plants they plan to build. You know, to power the factories that build the cheap crap bought by people here because their wages are 20-years-stagnant or they don't have jobs anymore because they were outsourced to...the coal-powered, pollution-pouring factories of China :(

96 EPR-radar  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:58:04pm

re: #88 Gus

When was the last time China invaded a country?

Noting recent, as far as I know. However, I think it is also true that the national identity of Korea, Vietnam and other SE Asian nations was forged by resisting annexation by China.

97 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:59:05pm

re: #90 Varek Raith

We have 12 carrier battle fleets.

No, we have 12 carriers. They aren't all available at once:

Why Carriers Are So Damn Expensive

There is a lot of shipyard maintenance involved with CVNs, enough to keep these carriers unavailable for over 20 percent of their career. Over its fifty years of service, each Nimitz class carrier has 17 planned trips back to the ship yard. There are twelve Planned Incremental Availability (or PIA) operations in which new gear is installed, worn or damaged stuff is replaced, and any heavy duty work needed is completed. Duration of a PIA varies with the amount of work to be done but it can take several months or a year or more. Even more lengthy are the four DPIA operations, which are more extensive PIAs that include putting the ship into dry dock. These efforts can last a year or two. Then there is the one RCOH. The cost of all these visits to the shipyard cost more than the initial construction of the carrier.

That cost is one reason the U.S. Navy disbanded one of its ten Carrier Strike Groups (CSGs) last year, leaving only nine of them for the eleven aircraft carriers in service. CSGs contain 7,500 people, 75 warplanes and four surface warships, a nuclear sub, and several supply ships. When a carrier is out-of-action, the CSG really has nothing to do. Disbanding one is a money saving measure because nuclear powered aircraft (CVN) carriers spend so much of their time out-of-service having maintenance done. Thus only 8-9 CSGs are needed at any one time.

A carrier strike force is actually a complex organization. There is the CVN and its crew, and the CAW (Carrier Air Wing), which includes all the aircraft, pilots, and support personnel. The CAWs do not stay with the same CVN but move around. When a CVN goes in for maintenance its CAW will move ashore and then to another carrier (usually one coming out of dry dock). Also part of a SCG are the escort ships (usually a destroyer squadron of 2-4 destroyers, cruisers, or frigates) and one or two SSNs (nuclear attack subs). There are also one or two supply ships (carrying spare parts and maintenance personnel for all ships, as well as fuel for the escort ships).

98 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:59:30pm

re: #88 Gus

1979. They have made repeated coward incursions into Arunchal Pradesh since then, and have intruded into neighbors waters too many times to count.

re: #92 Dark_Falcon

Well they did well until they lost Vietnamese began to rally. Then they started getting pushed back heavily. Very awesome moment for Vietnam. They managed a two front war, something very few nations have ever done.

99 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:59:51pm

re: #95 Interesting Times

People CHOOSE to buy cheap crap. Just like we CHOOSE to fly on the lowest priced airline. It is a choice.

rant off.

100 TedStriker  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:59:57pm

re: #46 ProGunLiberal

Historically, they are a second rate power. The Caliphate whipped them. They were a tributary state to Tibet for a time in the past. And among the groups who have conquered them include the Mongols, the Manchu, and the Uyghur Turks.

And I will never respect the PRC. Ever. They have and are committing Genocide. For that, they need to be reduced in size to what they were under the Han Dynasty, minus Korea.

Let me be clear; my rebuttal to your "Lebensraum" comment was regarding Chinese individuals and families, not territorial ambitions of the PRC, such as with Tibet and the Uyghurs. For that, I do agree with you that the PRC be discouraged from that as much as possible; to that end, the more that the US and other nations interact and trade with the PRC, the more the old Maoist facade cracks and splinters.

However, a couple of old sayings apply to how we need to treat China in the future as they sell their weapons to almost any willing buyer and as they are starting to build a blue-water navy: "Keep your enemies close, but your friends closer" and "Quantity has a quality all its own."

101 TedStriker  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:00:30pm
102 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:00:30pm

Oh brother. I am so out of here.

103 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:00:55pm

re: #94 A Man for all Seasons

Hi D_F!

Hey Hoops! The Langley was a chance to give you a well earned shout-out.

Any thing you can add to this discussion about naval power from the logistics side?

104 EPR-radar  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:00:56pm

re: #92 Dark_Falcon

1979, when they invaded Vietnam. They did have much luck in that invasion, as they were attacking a more experienced army on its own ground in terrain that heavily favored the defender.

Interesting. Looks like it might have been a proxy war as part of the USSR-China conflict.

105 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:02:18pm

re: #98 ProGunLiberal

1979. They have made repeated coward incursions into Arunchal Pradesh since then, and have intruded into neighbors waters too many times to count.

re: #92 Dark_Falcon

Well they did well until they lost Vietnamese began to rally. Then they started getting pushed back heavily. Very awesome moment for Vietnam. They managed a two front war, something very few nations have ever done.

Though the Khmer Rouge weren't a very strong opponent, Pol Pot having mismanaged his fighting forces into the ground.

106 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:04:03pm

Yeah, we'll still kick China's ass in a fleet fight.

107 Interesting Times  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:04:22pm

re: #99 Dancing along the light of day

People CHOOSE to buy cheap crap.

Flip over the keyboard you're using to type comments on this site, and read where it was made. Think you'd ever be able to find one made anywhere else? They no longer exist.

108 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:05:17pm

re: #107 Interesting Times

No, and I know that you are speaking the truth here.

109 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:05:51pm

re: #103 Dark_Falcon

Hey Hoops! The Langley was a chance to give you a well earned shout-out.

Any thing you can add to this discussion about naval power from the logistics side?

I think it's a big mistake to shrink American Naval power.
But Logistical, The Navy plays a primary global force to provide Logistical support for disasters and hot spots around the globe.

110 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:06:36pm

re: #105 Dark_Falcon

True, but it is still impressive to an extent.

re: #100 TedStriker

We need to get our designs cheaper so we can compete with them. And also to help up arm the neighbor nations.

Hell, we could help our debt out by selling certain types of weapons to the most trustworthy of the nations threatened by the PRC.

111 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:07:16pm

re: #100 TedStriker

Let me be clear; my rebuttal to your "Lebensraum" comment was regarding Chinese individuals and families, not territorial ambitions of the PRC, such as with Tibet and the Uyghurs. For that, I do agree with you that the PRC be discouraged from that as much as possible; to that end, the more that the US and other nations interact and trade with the PRC, the more the old Maoist facade cracks and splinters.

However, a couple of old sayings apply to how we need to treat China in the future as they sell their weapons to almost any willing buyer and as they are starting to build a blue-water navy: "Keep your enemies close, but your friends closer" and "Quantity has a quality all its own."

Ah, Marshal Zhukov. That's true, but China isn't going that way. China has actually downsized its tank forces massively. Where there was once 12 third rate tanks crewed by 48 men, there are now 4 1.5 rate tanks crewed by 12 men. And those 12 men are far better paid, educated and trained than their predecessors. They will depend on quantity far less. China learned a big lesson when they saw how easily British Challenger 1 and US M1A1 Abrams tanks destroyed Chinese-built Type 59 tanks during Operation: Desert Storm.

112 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:08:32pm

re: #106 Varek Raith

Yeah, we'll still kick China's ass in a fleet fight.

But they do not mean to fight us on the open ocean. They mean to fight close enough to China for their land-based aircraft to be able to get into the fight.

113 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:08:37pm

Zumwalt.
Classic example of complete over engineering.
So expensive we can't afford them!
Brilliant.

114 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:10:03pm

re: #108 Dancing along the light of day

No, and I know that you are speaking the truth here.

My dad actually goes out of his way to avoid buying stuff made in China, often to great lengths.

115 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:10:12pm

re: #112 Dark_Falcon

True. So we need ways to counter-act that.

Some sort of non-Nuclear EMP?

116 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:10:30pm

re: #114 Dark_Falcon

I will buy anything but there.

117 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:10:57pm

re: #115 ProGunLiberal

True. So we need ways to counter-act that.

Some sort of non-Nuclear EMP?

Not really possible. Their planes will be well-hardened against that.

118 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:12:18pm

re: #112 Dark_Falcon

But they do not mean to fight us on the open ocean. They mean to fight close enough to China for their land-based aircraft to be able to get into the fight.

Then we shouldn't fall for such a trick, no?
Sorry, war with China is very unlikely as we rely far too much on each other, whether we want to admit it or not.

119 dragonath  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:13:07pm

re: #66 ProGunLiberal

I'm hoping the PRC cracks and implodes.

Then, maybe the Muslim World will snap out of its stupor and support the Uyghurs in throwing off the PRC.

Jesus CHRIST man, when are you going to stop making assumptions about vast groups of people? It's not some big war game.

120 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:13:27pm

re: #117 Dark_Falcon

Well then, hopefully we will have ships with counter measures against them. Also, you have a message.

re:#118 Varek Raith

We need start weening those ties.

121 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:13:47pm

re: #120 ProGunLiberal

Well then, hopefully we will have ships with counter measures against them. Also, you have a message.

re:#118 Varek Raith

We need start weening those ties.

Sounds like you want war with them.

122 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:14:03pm

re: #119 dragonath

I never said anything about its people. I despise the government of the PRC.

123 Bubblehead II  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:14:09pm

Night Lizards. Interesting night.

124 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:14:42pm

re: #121 Varek Raith

I want the Uyghurs and Tibetans to survive.

125 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:15:09pm

re: #113 Varek Raith

Zumwalt.
Classic example of complete over engineering.
So expensive we can't afford them!
Brilliant.

On the other hand, the Virginia-class submarine has proven affordable, and in fact General Dynamics' Electric Boat yard in Grotton, CT actually turned one of those in 3 million dollars under budget this year. And it was built well, with no corners cut.

126 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:15:36pm

re: #124 ProGunLiberal

I want the Uyghurs and Tibetans to survive.

And you think war is the answer?
What makes you think it won't eventually go nuclear?

127 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:16:45pm

re: #125 Dark_Falcon

Very useful little tubes full of men. I especially like the ones we used in Libya.

128 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:18:32pm

re: #127 ProGunLiberal

Very useful little tubes full of men. I especially like the ones we used in Libya.

That was easy work for them. China would be much harder. Heck, even Iran would be harder, since like China it has properly trained ASW forces.

129 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:18:47pm

re: #126 Varek Raith

Because the PRC is not stopping the mistreatment and killing of these two peoples, and numerous smaller groups.

I don't want war, but I want the government to collapse, to allow the Tibetans and Uyghurs to throw off the PRC. The PRC will never be more tolerant. China has been open since Nixon. It hasn't gotten better, and it won't get better.

130 TedStriker  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:19:08pm

re: #125 Dark_Falcon

On the other hand, the Virginia-class submarine has proven affordable, and in fact General Dynamics' Electric Boat yard in Grotton, CT actually turned one of those in 3 million dollars under budget this year. And it was built well, with no corners cut.

Long, hard, and full of seamen.

/just couldn't resist

131 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:19:36pm

re: #128 Dark_Falcon

No, that was a reference to the subs themselves.

132 dragonath  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:20:00pm
133 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:20:14pm

*headdesk*

134 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:20:14pm

re: #130 TedStriker

I wanted to make that joke, but my mind prevented me from going all the way there. So I settled for halfway.

135 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:20:32pm

My head hurts.

136 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:20:33pm

The book
"A year without made in China"
is an interesting view.
I wouldn't read it again, but it did make me think!
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

137 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:20:34pm

re: #133 Charles Johnson

????

138 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:23:03pm

re: #125 Dark_Falcon

On the other hand, the Virginia-class submarine has proven affordable, and in fact General Dynamics' Electric Boat yard in Grotton, CT actually turned one of those in 3 million dollars under budget this year. And it was built well, with no corners cut.

It is an excellent boat. I remember it started going down hill for the Seawolf was in the beginning the cracks in the hull by using HY100 metal instead of continuing with HY80.It went downhill from there

139 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:23:39pm

re: #131 ProGunLiberal

No, that was a reference to the subs themselves.

I know. I'm just saying they'd face a tougher test against a foe with trained ASW forces.

140 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:23:46pm

re: #138 A Man for all Seasons

Can you explain the metal thing?

141 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:25:52pm

re: #128 Dark_Falcon

That was easy work for them. China would be much harder. Heck, even Iran would be harder, since like China it has properly trained ASW forces.

There are Skimmers (like the Chinese carrier) and then there are Swarmers (like American attack subs). To the Swarmers, the Skimmers are targets. To the Skimmers, the Swarmers are...invisible. If that carrier sortied out of its home port in anger, it, it's screening ships, and its submarine cover would last (metaphorically) 60 seconds.

142 Petero1818  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:29:19pm

I am watching "Blitz" do a story on Rice's statements on Benghazi. I am trying really hard to understand what the GOP position is on this. They believe that Rice's statements to the media in the days following this tragic event when the intelligence was continuously evolving and changing amounted to what? A mistake, overly cautious, incomplete, unresolved? This they believe is a reason to hold up here nomination? to divert massive resources from their focus on the fiscal cliff to this? Nothing, absolutely nothing hangs on this issue. No substantive decisions were made based on it. No new policy set according to it. No consequence of any kind as a result of it. The same party that fudged years worth of intelligence and fraudulently deceived the UN and the American people in order to wage war in Iraq is really going to go to the mat on this?

143 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:30:35pm

re: #141 austin_blue

There are Skimmers (like the Chinese carrier) and then there are Swarmers (like American attack subs). To the Swarmers, the Skimmers are targets. To the Skimmers, the Swarmers are...invisible. If that carrier sortied out of its home port in anger, it, it's screening ships, and its submarine cover would last (metaphorically) 60 seconds.

Her own ASW is pretty good. She's got active and passive sonar, depth charge laying rockets, and helicopters which can carry depth charges or ASW torpedoes. The Liaoning and her escort group would be a very tough nut to crack for subs.

144 Alexzander  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:31:04pm

Thank you Larry for writing this and thank you Charles for promoting this.

This is exactly what the moderate-left coalition needs to push in America. We need to make it so that Obama has no choice but to pursue these options.

145 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:31:30pm

re: #138 A Man for all Seasons

It is an excellent boat. I remember it started going down hill for the Seawolf was in the beginning the cracks in the hull by using HY100 metal instead of continuing with HY80.It went downhill from there

True, but at least they corrected those flaws on the three Seawolves that were built.

146 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:32:43pm

re: #140 ProGunLiberal

Can you explain the metal thing?

The metal used in a sub hull is very strong. As a result it is near impossible to weld. There are tight preheating procedures to follow 24-48 hours before welding...HY100 is so strong that it often cracked. Millions of dollars were spent on new metallurgy and frustrated Engineers.

147 EPR-radar  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:34:14pm

re: #142 Petero1818

I am watching "Blitz" do a story on Rice's statements on Benghazi. I am trying really hard to understand what the GOP position is on this. They believe that Rice's statements to the media in the days following this tragic event when the intelligence was continuously evolving and changing amounted to what? A mistake, overly cautious, incomplete, unresolved? This they believe is a reason to hold up here nomination? to divert massive resources from their focus on the fiscal cliff to this? Nothing, absolutely nothing hangs on this issue. No substantive decisions were made based on it. No new policy set according to it. No consequence of any kind as a result of it. The same party that fudged years worth of intelligence and fraudulently deceived the UN and the American people in order to wage war in Iraq is really going to go to the mat on this?

Actually, it seems simple enough to me --- the GOP establishment had fever dreams of Benghazi being a disaster for Obama the way the Iran hostage crisis did in Carter. This didn't happen, so baby-id of the GOP is having a tantrum.

148 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:34:20pm

re: #146 A Man for all Seasons

Yeowch!

149 Alexzander  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:35:35pm

re: #13 Charles Johnson

Completely OT, but Jimi Hendrix would have been 70 years old today.

Image: JimHendrixBrianJones.jpg

I used to walk by his statue in Seattle every couple of days.
I still have a few months before I am sure that I don't join the 27 Club (although I am not in the least famous.)

150 TedStriker  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:35:56pm

re: #133 Charles Johnson

*headdesk*

What's up, doc?

151 Alexzander  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:37:31pm

re: #150 TedStriker

What's up, doc?

I think he might have given himself a concussion. Someone should give him a call.

152 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:41:54pm

re: #143 Dark_Falcon

Her own ASW is pretty good. She's got active and passive sonar, depth charge laying rockets, and helicopters which can carry depth charges or ASW torpedoes. The Liaoning and her escort group would be a very tough nut to crack for subs.

Pshaw. It's ancient Soviet technology desperately upgraded.

Sitting. Duck. Adios, motherfucker.

153 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:42:17pm

Is it OK to be left-handed?


Hint: That's not really what it is about.

154 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:42:23pm

re: #151 Alexzander

I think he might have given himself a concussion. Someone should give him a call.

If he's got a concussion, he can't blog till the docs clear him. We'd have to bring in Stinky as the backup.

//

155 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:44:01pm

re: #152 austin_blue

Pshaw. It's ancient Soviet technology desperately upgraded.

Sitting. Duck. Adios, motherfucker.

I'm not so optimistic. And that CV will never be alone during a crisis, she'll have at least two DDs protecting her, plus at least one SSN.

156 TedStriker  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:47:56pm

re: #152 austin_blue

Pshaw. It's ancient Soviet technology desperately upgraded.

Sitting. Duck. Adios, motherfucker.

It may be (relatively) ancient tech, but everyone starts somewhere. With necessity being the mother of invention, I still think it would be unwise to completely discount China's embryonic blue-water naval capabilities just yet (or any of the rest of the PRC's military capabilities, for that matter).

157 allegro  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:48:07pm

Oh wow, I swear I just saw Anne Romney in the audience of Dancing With the Stars.

No point in it. Please proceed...

158 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:48:16pm

The article on the Liaoning contained a link to the bridges of Istanbul. Two of those bridges are truly grand sights to see:

Bosphorus Bridge

Image: 250px-Pont_du_Bosphore%2C_Istanbul.jpg

Fatih Sultan Mehmet Bridge

Image: 250px-Fsmatnight0074.JPG

159 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:49:56pm

re: #158 Dark_Falcon

Too bad they aren't close in photos though.

160 dragonath  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:49:57pm

re: #158 Dark_Falcon

I'll raise your Sultan bridge with a Dragon bridge!

161 Belafon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:50:38pm

My suggestion: Pensions for Congresscritters. Their money goes into SS just like the rest of us. If they want, they can contribute to a 401K at the same max rate that the rest of us can. Also, end the free medical care they receive after leaving office.

Yes, I'm stealing from Buffett.

162 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:51:44pm

re: #159 ProGunLiberal

Too bad they aren't close in photos though.

Sorry, that was what was to hand. Glad you liked it, though.

163 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:51:50pm

Sigh...

164 StillAMarine  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:52:30pm

Wow! The article is a voice of rationality in the wilderness! The last item regarding limiting political campaigns is particularly appealing, even though the others should also be on the top of our priority lists.

165 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:55:49pm

re: #158 Dark_Falcon

The article on the Liaoning contained a link to the bridges of Istanbul. Two of those bridges are truly grand sights to see:

Bosphorus Bridge

Image: 250px-Pont_du_Bosphore%2C_Istanbul.jpg

Fatih Sultan Mehmet Bridge

Image: 250px-Fsmatnight0074.JPG

We convoyed 300 vehicles of an armored brigade across the Bosphorus Bridge during a Display Determination FTX. (A fast ship had to land at the 'wrong' end of the Sea of Marmara.)

166 freetoken  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:59:57pm

Raise taxes.

167 EPR-radar  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:00:29pm

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

US military spending is more ridiculous than I had thought. In 2011, it appears that the US by itself accounted for 41% of worldwide military spending.

This suggests that we should cut US spending by a 5:1 or even a 10:1 ratio of defense cuts vs. non-defense cuts.

168 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:01:47pm

It seems that fracking for natural gas here in the US is putting pressure on Putin and Russia:

Russia now has yet another reason to be angry at America. The rapid growth of shale gas in the United States has crippled the ability of Russia to overcharge European customers for Russian natural gas. That is because suppliers of liquefied natural gas (delivered by ship anywhere in the world) have lost a lot of American business (to cheaper shale gas) and are shipping their gas to Europe and selling it for less than what the Russians are demanding. Russia long dismissed shale gas (and hydraulic fracturing or “fracking”) as an American fad that would fade. Now Russia has to cope with lost markets because of shale gas. Since oil and gas are Russia’s major exports, this is a serious matter. With less foreign currency available from energy sales, there is less money to import new technology and consumer goods as well as rebuild the military. Older Russians remember how successful American efforts to lower the price of oil in the 1980s helped bankrupt and destroy the Soviet Union.

Bolding mine.

Ending US price controls on gasoline wasn't seen as a foreign policy action by Reagan, but over time it and other steps taken to cut oil prices did immense damage to the Soviet Union. So fracking may be seen to be "winning one for the Gipper".

169 freetoken  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:03:13pm

re: #95 Interesting Times

The biggest threat by far that China poses to the world is the obscene number of coal plants they plan to build. You know, to power the factories that build the cheap crap bought by people here because their wages are 20-years-stagnant or they don't have jobs anymore because they were outsourced to...the coal-powered, pollution-pouring factories of China :(

An even bigger threat: China doesn't have the quality coal resources to feed all those plants for more than a few years.

After that, they either have to burn really low quality carbon deposits, or import high quality (quality here meaning amount of available energy per unit of mass) from Australia, Canada, the US, or Russia (or, more likely, from all four.)

170 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:03:50pm

re: #168 Dark_Falcon

I would support fracking if there was a way to keep it from polluting groundwater and other such things. It needs to be regulated. And cheap.

171 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:07:15pm

re: #170 ProGunLiberal

I would support fracking if there was a way to keep it from polluting groundwater and other such things. It needs to be regulated. And cheap.

Those last two partially contradict each other. But Pennsylvania at least seems to be keeping a proper eye on it. I'd suggest a law that mandated that states using fracking set standards (with a minimum specified) and enforce them. That would keep the EPA in an oversight role, rather than direct enforcement, and would allow states flexibility while still requiring them to act.

172 dragonath  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:07:24pm

Russia is three times the size of the United States. Seems like a bad idea to compete head to head with them on natural resources by depleting our own.

173 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:09:52pm

re: #172 dragonath

Russia is three times the size of the United States. Seems like a bad idea to compete head to head with them on natural resources by depleting our own.

We've got good reserves, and we're much more efficient than Russia. And our efficiency will force Russia to improve while preventing them from gouging their customers. It's a true free market solution. It lets America show the world how its done without us throwing our weight around.

175 jaunte  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:15:55pm

Glenn Beck building a chalkboard ark:
[Link: www.rightwingwatch.org...]

176 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:18:17pm

re: #174 ProGunLiberal

Meanwhile, Exhibit #4689 that Justin Bieber is a total douchecanoe.

He's a kid whose fame has gone to his head. He hasn't had the difficulties you and I have faced to keep him humble, PLL. And if someone doesn't teach him humility, he will learn it the hard way.

177 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:18:20pm

re: #155 Dark_Falcon

I'm not so optimistic. And that CV will never be alone during a crisis, she'll have at least two DDs protecting her, plus at least one SSN.

A Chinese DD has as much chance of finding a US attack sub as you have of finding a Twinkie at WalMart. Same for their SSNs. They are loud and noisy. Our subs are black holes. Even *our* DDs can't find them when they settle on the bottom and go dark.

178 dragonath  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:19:29pm

re: #171 Dark_Falcon

I must take exception with the idea that Pennsylvania is "keeping an proper eye on it", in fact, Pennsylvania has made the oversight process incredibly opaque.

I don't think you are aware of the way the state DEP was restructured, or the erosion of existing standards such as eliminating riparian buffer zones.

179 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:19:43pm

re: #175 jaunte

Glenn Beck building a chalkboard ark:
[Link: www.rightwingwatch.org...]

Doesn't Glenn Beck know that colored chalk was "forged by Lucifer himself!"?

/Simpsons reference

180 freetoken  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:20:28pm

re: #175 jaunte

Glenn Beck building a chalkboard ark:
[Link: www.rightwingwatch.org...]

Savior-syndrome.

181 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:21:32pm

re: #177 austin_blue

A Chinese DD has as much dance of finding a US attack sub as you have of finding a Twinkie at WalMart. Same for their SSNs. They are loud and noisy. Our subs are black holes. Even *our* DDs can't find them when they settle on the bottom and go dark.

I respectfully disagree. Though I admit some of that is that I always expect that an enemy can hurt us, in order to ensure that I don't get arrogant in my analysis.

182 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:21:46pm

re: #176 Dark_Falcon

The are some celebrities and young stars who have their heads screwed on straight. Justin Beiber is just a twatwaffle.

183 freetoken  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:22:50pm

A paper published today by an IOP publication is getting wide play in the media:


Comparing climate projections to observations up to 2011

Abstract
We analyse global temperature and sea-level data for the past few decades and compare them to projections published in the third and fourth assessment reports of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). The results show that global temperature continues to increase in good agreement with the best estimates of the IPCC, especially if we account for the effects of short-term variability due to the El Niño/Southern Oscillation, volcanic activity and solar variability. The rate of sea-level rise of the past few decades, on the other hand, is greater than projected by the IPCC models. This suggests that IPCC sea-level projections for the future may also be biased low.

[...]

4. Conclusions
In conclusion, the rise in CO2 concentration and global temperature has continued to closely match the projections over the past five years, while sea level continues to rise faster than anticipated. The latter suggests that the 21st Century sea-level projections of the last two IPCC reports may be systematically biased low. Further support for this concern is provided by the fact that the ice sheets in Greenland and Antarctica are increasingly losing mass (Rignot et al 2011, Van den Broeke et al 2011), while those IPCC projections assumed that Antarctica will gain enough mass in future to largely compensate mass losses from Greenland (see figure 10.33 in Meehl et al (2007)). For this reason, an additional contribution ('scaled-up ice sheet discharge') was suggested in the IPCC fourth assessment. Our results highlight the need to thoroughly validate models with data of past climate changes before applying them to projections.

184 TedStriker  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:23:56pm

re: #181 Dark_Falcon

I respectfully disagree. Though I admit some of that is that I always expect that an enemy can hurt us, in order to ensure that I don't get arrogant in my analysis.

You do know that a_b is former Navy (IIRC), right? Still, doesn't hurt to be cautious about others' capabilities.

185 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:24:47pm

re: #178 dragonath

I must take exception with the idea that Pennsylvania is "keeping an proper eye on it", in fact, Pennsylvania has made the oversight process incredibly opaque.

I don't think you are aware of the way the state DEP was restructured, or the erosion of existing standards such as eliminating riparian buffer zones.

No shit. As a petroleum geologist, I can tell you with high confidence that any well is as safe as its weakest cement job. Please refer to the BP blowout in the gulf.

186 jaunte  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:25:37pm
187 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:26:22pm

re: #184 TedStriker

You do know that a_b is former Navy (IIRC), right? Still, doesn't hurt to be cautious about others' capabilities.

He's Air Force, as I recall. He flew B-52s.

188 sattv4u2  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:27:04pm

re: #185 austin_blue

any well is as safe as its weakest cement job

And I was told many years ago, there are two types of cement

Cement that's cracked
Cement that's going to crack!!

189 Joanne  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:29:11pm

re: #174 ProGunLiberal

Meanwhile, Exhibit #4689 that Justin Bieber is a total douchecanoe.

Are you kidding me? He's a fucking KID. Is he even old enough to vote? Sheesh.

190 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:31:13pm

This is probably going to generate some "hurr, hurr, hurr"s here:

Destroyer McCain fails INSURV inspection

The destroyer John S. McCain, based in Yokosuka, Japan, scored an “unsatisfactory” grade at the Board of Inspection and Survey assessment, said Naval Surfaces Forces spokesman Lt. Rick Chernitzer.

“The ship received an overall grade of unsatisfactory due largely to propulsion, damage control and combat systems issues,” Chernitzer said. “On Sept. 21, the ship passed a full material inspection and was found fit for combat operations.”

The Navy withheld the news of the INSURV failure until the major problems had been fixed and the ship had been recertified as combat-ready.

These inspections gauge the state of a ship’s hull and installed equipment, from the engines and propellers to the inflatable life jackets and the deep-fat fryer. Normal preps last months. Outside of the nuclear Navy’s assessments, INSURV is regarded as the fleet’s most invasive check, an assessment completed every five years that demands long hours of crews.

Failing it has ended careers. However, the latest failure hasn’t prompted any reliefs or “personnel changes,” Chernitzer said.

Cmdr. Scott Hattaway, the ship’s captain, took command of the destroyer seven weeks before the inspection. The 1996 Naval Academy grad has been aboard John S. McCain since November 2010, when he became the ship’s executive officer.

The ship is named for Senator McCain's father and grandfather and he personally attended its launching and commissioning. Sen. McCain's wife Cindy sponsored its launch.

191 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:31:37pm

re: #189 Joanne

Are you kidding me? He's a fucking KID. Is he even old enough to vote? Sheesh.

He's 18, so yes.

192 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:31:43pm

re: #189 Joanne

Yes, he is old enough to vote. He is 18. Old enough to damn well know better. When you meet the leader of your nation one on one, you dress appropriately. And I say this despising Harper.

193 Interesting Times  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:34:09pm

re: #192 ProGunLiberal

Yes, he is old enough to vote. He is 18. Old enough to damn well know better. When you meet the leader of your nation one on one, you dress appropriately. And I say this despising Harper.

194 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:34:24pm

re: #187 Dark_Falcon

He's Air Force, as I recall. He flew B-52s.

re: #187 Dark_Falcon

He's Air Force, as I recall. He flew B-52s.

About 500 hours in Buffs (H models), about 1000 hours in Tankers. Buffs were more fun to fly, but Tankers were better for overseas assignments.

195 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:34:26pm

re: #192 ProGunLiberal

Yes, he is old enough to vote. He is 18. Old enough to damn well know better. When you meet the leader of your nation one on one, you dress appropriately. And I say this despising Harper.

It's a matter of respect for the office, as you just said. If I knew I'd be meeting President Obama, I'd damn well be wearing ironed slacks, a dress shirt, and a tie at a minimum.

196 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:35:04pm

re: #194 austin_blue

re: #187 Dark_Falcon

About 500 hours in Buffs (H models), about 1000 hours in Tankers. Buffs were more fun to fly, but Tankers were better for overseas assignments.

Which tankers? KC-135s or KC-10s?

197 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:39:53pm

re: #196 Dark_Falcon

Which tankers? KC-135s or KC-10s?

-135's. J-57's with water injection for takeoff (lowered the pressure altitude for max weight takeoffs.).

198 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:42:02pm

re: #197 austin_blue

-135's. J-57's with water injection for takeoff (lowered the pressure altitude for max weight takeoffs.).

Cool. How does that sort of supercharger tech work for jets, though? I understand how it works for prop planes, but not jets.

199 makeitstop  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:42:17pm

re: #174 ProGunLiberal

Meanwhile, Exhibit #4689 that Justin Bieber is a total douchecanoe.

The best part of viewing that page was coming across this word in the comments:

wankpancake.

200 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:44:32pm

re: #199 makeitstop

The best part of viewing that page was coming across this word in the comments:

wankpancake.

He'll be wanking when Selena Gomez dumps him for good, which I think will happen. The two of them are living proof of girls maturing faster than boys. She's a young woman, and he's still very much a boy.

201 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:46:20pm

re: #198 Dark_Falcon

Cool. How does that sort of supercharger tech work for jets, though? I understand how it works for prop planes, but not jets.

Increased thrust because of the burst of the water into steam. Smoked like hell. You prayed that the valves didn't fail on both engines on one side. High ambient temperature, full weight, you were going to land soon after leaving the runway.

Big fire.

202 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:47:40pm

re: #201 austin_blue

Increased thrust because of the burst of the water into steam. Smoked like hell. You prayed that the valves didn't fail on both engines on one side. High ambient temperature, full weight, you were going to land soon after leaving the runway.

Big fire.

Glad that never happened to you.

203 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:50:44pm

re: #202 Dark_Falcon

Glad that never happened to you.

Me too!

And goodnight, all.

204 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:54:46pm

re: #200 Dark_Falcon

I did manage to catch the tidbit that he cheated on her.

You DO NOT cheat on a lady.

And yes, your point is correct.

205 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:55:57pm

The moving Moon went up the sky,
And no where did abide:
Softly she was going up,
And a star or two beside—

Her beams bemocked the sultry main,
Like April hoar-frost spread;
But where the ship's huge shadow lay,
The charmèd water burnt alway
A still and awful red.

Image: article-2239040-163AE1E1000005DC-682_634x423.jpg

206 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:56:39pm

re: #204 ProGunLiberal

I did manage to catch the tidbit that he cheated on her.

You DO NOT cheat on a lady.

And yes, your point is correct.

It's not clear if he cheated. What is clear is that he badly needs to grow up.

207 lostlakehiker  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:03:20pm

re: #14 ProGunLiberal

A) Deterence against continued encroachment on its neighbors.

B) If my hunch is correct, when China begins to capsize, to drive a final stake through the government and facilitate a disintingration.

re: #9 Gus

Well, all four of the branches have a specific role. The only unusual branch is the Marines, and that is because our Marine Corps. are significantly larger than other nations.

Drive a stake? China is a nuclear power. One treads lightly!

208 lostlakehiker  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:10:06pm

re: #4 glnmruser

Extremely well said. We need to downsize our military and I really think that we have to figure out how to move our military technical expertise into more productive functions. These folks are so highly skilled- if you could move them into non-military technical development America would zoom past the rest of the world in months. Some bipartisan strategy here would be a boon for America- bucks saved and bucks made.

It's an interesting bunch of ideas but the fact that this guy is all alone says that he's as rare among liberals as a global warming realist among conservatives. Not part of any team that can get anything done politically. For all practical political purposes, today's liberals aren't interested in finding domestic spending cuts.

209 Good Morning  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:12:24pm

Increase the age of Medicare eligibility by a year or two.

If you are on medicaid it doesn't matter. Otherwise I am thinking like $10,000 to $20,000 a year for insurance. Which is to say you were stupid for being 60 and having any money.

210 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:12:36pm

Look out man the Chinese are coming to get you. Be afraid! Be very afraid. You're next!

Mao!

211 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:13:36pm

CHINA!

212 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:13:57pm

China is buying her way into the rest of the world. NO need to buy more equipment of war unless you are talking about computer equipment and the brains to run them.

the ME, well, that may be a different story. China needs oil. They will need more oil in the not so distant future. We may be needed to secure the oil supply for the rest of the world against China.

Then again, if any of the political asshats could join a brain cell or two and get some financing and grants to the academics and innovators WE might not need the ME oil at all--now that would be a good reason to spend money to prevent war --no? We could funnel Pentagon budgets into R&D for clean, renewable energy --the brainpower is there. I have no doubt. But short term profits in weaponry feeds the greedy and those who lust for power.

In Washington D.C. it's all about votes. ON Wall Street, it's about money.

What about all their men without women? IIRC, they are exporting them to Afrika where I guess they will find wives.

China is going to win genetically, the West will win culturally.

We are living the Brave New World. Getting stuck in past gripes and paradigms will be our doom.

213 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:14:15pm

While you type on your Chinese products. So lame.

214 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:14:20pm

CHINA!

215 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:15:03pm

Wow. You guys are actually serious about this.

216 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:15:15pm

re: #214 Gus

CHINA!

Rapey-Stabby China!

217 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:15:34pm

The Chinese are coming to kill you so prepare yourself.

218 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:15:55pm

re: #216 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Rapey-Stabby China!

Death by Chinese.

219 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:16:49pm

re: #215 Gus

Wow. You guys are actually serious about this.

Serious, but not crazed. It was actually a fairly learned discussion tonight, I'd say.

220 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:16:52pm

Viet Nam. 1979. They're coming for you now!

221 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:17:20pm

China is touching your swimsuit area.

222 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:17:41pm

re: #218 Gus

Death by Chinese.

Suicide by Brazilian.

223 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:17:45pm

re: #219 Dark_Falcon

Serious, but not crazed. It was actually a fairly learned discussion tonight, I'd say.

I'd say to up the anti-anxiety drugs and stop worrying about China so much.

224 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:17:54pm

re: #218 Gus

Death by Chinese.

MOre like Bankruptcy by Chinese.

225 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:18:12pm

That China is wack with poo brain.

226 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:18:30pm

re: #223 Gus

I'd say to up the anti-anxiety drugs and stop worrying about China so much.

China is on the long-term threat list, officially. But for invasion --no so much.

227 The Gender Ambiguity of a Flea  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:18:35pm

re: #218 Gus

Death by Chinese.

General Tso is to be feared.

228 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:18:47pm

re: #224 Holidays are Family Fun Time

MOre like Bankruptcy by Chinese.

Gotta blame someone. Might as well be the Chin Lee.

229 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:19:04pm

re: #220 Gus

Viet Nam. 1979. They're coming for you now!

You asked the question, Gus. I answered it politely and with a couple of details.

230 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:19:15pm

China ruined my life.

231 dragonath  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:19:28pm

Big Trouble in Little China

232 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:19:44pm

re: #229 Dark_Falcon

You asked the question, Gus. I answered it politely and with a couple of details.

Still though. Beware man. The yellow man is around the corner.

233 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:20:03pm

re: #226 Holidays are Family Fun Time

China is on the long-term threat list, officially. But for invasion --no so much.

That's why the Red Dawn remake changed the villain to North Korea.

///

234 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:20:37pm

The sad thing is that the Chinese people don't know history, they have been denied their own history.

The U.S. and China are not playing with the same set of facts.

Which isn't too much different than the electorate here in the U.S. At least here, there is no excuse for ignorance.

235 jaunte  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:20:39pm

We'll have some real trouble when Foxconn unionizes.

236 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:21:32pm

re: #227 The Questionable Timing of a Flea

General Tso is to be feared.

But, General Tso's chicken is tasty!

237 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:21:44pm

re: #235 jaunte

We'll have some real trouble when Foxconn unionizes.

The US will have some trouble, but China will have a lot more of it in that scenario.

238 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:22:02pm

Speaking of threats --it's our own religious nut-jobs, not anyone else's, we need to worry about.

Who said it --we will fall from within?

239 funky chicken  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:22:08pm

#3 and #7 should be the first ideas advanced. I'd also means-test social security and medicare--rich old folks don't need government handouts.

240 The Gender Ambiguity of a Flea  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:27:25pm

re: #230 Gus

China ruined my life.

Addiction to collecting tea sets, aka The Porcelain Monkey.

241 funky chicken  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:27:50pm

re: #212 Holidays are Family Fun Time

We could switch to using a whole lot more natural gas. CNG vehicles work great, but big oil and the automakers have opposed spending a dime on CNG infrastructure for a long time. Post 9/11/01 the kindest description I can come up with is ignorant/short-sighted.

242 dragonath  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:28:16pm

re: #238 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Speaking of threats --it's our own religious nut-jobs, not anyone else's, we need to worry about.

Who said it --we will fall from within?

OMG, Hobby Lobby. On a good day, you can feel the smarm emanating from that place. And that goofy name too. From their website:

Why are you closed on Sundays?
We have chosen to close on the day most widely recognized as a day of rest, in order to allow our employees and customers more time for worship and family. This has not been an easy decision for Hobby Lobby because we realize that this decision may cost us financially. Yet we also realize that there are things more important than profits. This is a matter of principle for our company owner and officers.

Hilarious mark up on their products too.

243 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:28:24pm

We need to fund brains like hers.

Discovered the chemical composition of stars and, in particular, that hydrogen and helium are the most abundant elements in stars and, therefore, in the universe. From the spectra of stars, she determined stellar temperatures and chemical abundances using the thermal ionization equation of Saha. Her work was of fundamental importance in the development of the field of stellar atmospheres. She discovered that all stars have very similar relative chemical abundances with hydrogen and helium comprising 99% by number.

244 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:29:09pm

re: #240 The Questionable Timing of a Flea

Addiction to collecting tea sets, aka The Porcelain Monkey.

The distribution of iPhones will not be disrupted.

245 EPR-radar  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:29:29pm

re: #208 lostlakehiker

It's an interesting bunch of ideas but the fact that this guy is all alone says that he's as rare among liberals as a global warming realist among conservatives. Not part of any team that can get anything done politically. For all practical political purposes, today's liberals aren't interested in finding domestic spending cuts.

Obama has probably done more than any other prominent Dem in recent years to put domestic spending cuts on the table. His results (abuse from the Democratic base, and intransigence from the Congressional Republicans) have been abysmal.

The Democratic party is not as monolithic as the GOP, and if the GOP ever got down to business, they could get votes from Democrats in Congress for center-right policies.

246 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:29:47pm

re: #242 dragonath

OMG, Hobby Lobby. On a good day, you can feel the smarm emanating from that place. And that goofy name too. From their website:

Hilarious mark up on their products too.

NOt around here, they are among the cheapest. They don't have computers, but old fashioned electronic cash registers and a bookkeeper in the back of the store that has to balance at the end of day.

They cut costs on everything --nothing modern.

247 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:31:13pm

The USA doesn't exactly give a shit about the Uyghur folks either.

248 The Gender Ambiguity of a Flea  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:31:54pm

re: #244 Gus

The distribution of iPhones will not be disrupted.

The spice smartphones must flow.

249 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:31:57pm

re: #244 Gus

The distribution of iPhones will not be disrupted.

They'll pry my iPhone out of my cold dead hands . . . .

250 Gus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:33:51pm

Out.

251 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:33:56pm

Wait, do people really think China will fall?

Really?

252 dragonath  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:34:03pm

re: #246 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Well, that is interesting! The Hobby Lobby near me is nothing at all like you described. I'm near a Blick art outlet, so I guess I'm biased.

253 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:35:09pm

re: #252 dragonath

Well, that is interesting! The Hobby Lobby near me is nothing at all like you described. I'm near a Blick art outlet, so I guess I'm biased.

Blick --I didn't know they had outlets.

Hobby Lobby is the cheapest of the cheap here. We have 1 Blick and it's full price only has the best stuff. We have Michaels and JoAnn's as well.

254 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:35:59pm

re: #252 dragonath

Well, that is interesting! The Hobby Lobby near me is nothing at all like you described. I'm near a Blick art outlet, so I guess I'm biased.

Where are you?

255 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:36:49pm

re: #251 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Wait, do people really think China will fall?

Really?

Not me. And I'm out, too. Sleep Well, All.

256 TedStriker  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:38:06pm

re: #200 Dark_Falcon

He'll be wanking when Selena Gomez dumps him for good, which I think will happen. The two of them are living proof of girls maturing faster than boys. She's a young woman, and he's still very much a boy.

Didn't that already happen?

257 TedStriker  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:39:15pm

re: #231 dragonath

Big Trouble in Little China

Well, you know what ol' Jack Burton says at a time like this...

258 dragonath  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:39:48pm

re: #254 Holidays are Family Fun Time

About the Jersey/Pennsylvania border...

Why don't you use bar code scanners?

We continue to look at and review the option of scanning at the registers but do not feel it is right for us at this time.

Barcodes: The Mark of the Beast!

259 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:45:48pm

re: #258 dragonath

Um, don't look now, but there's one on your forehead!
///

260 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:47:27pm
261 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:51:21pm

re: #259 Dancing along the light of day

Um, don't look now, but there's one on your forehead!
///

how do you write "6-6-6" in barcode?

262 dragonath  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:52:21pm

Hey Gus! Here's a REAL threat!

MONGOLIANS!! they're singing too

263 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:53:48pm

Really the whole area around the Tibetan Plateau has uranium - Khazikstan, Nepal, India, Inner Mongolia. They are finding other precious things there and there isn't a lot of evidence that safe practices are being used in mining or waste removal.

There may be some strange mutants coming from that part of the world.

The sad part of Sci-Fi Novels predicting the future so accurately.

It is a very big deal.

264 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:57:35pm

Ok, forget China --ELMO is in trouble.

265 Kragar  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:59:09pm

re: #257 TedStriker

Well, you know what ol' Jack Burton says at a time like this...

Who?

266 Jack Burton  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 10:03:35pm

re: #265 Kragar

Who?

Jack Burton.... Me.

267 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 10:05:05pm

re: #264 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I think Elmo's got a lot of smoke going on. I don't know about the fire, but....

268 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 10:05:31pm
269 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 10:06:07pm

re: #267 Dancing along the light of day

I think Elmo's got a lot of smoke going on. I don't know about the fire, but....

Yeah, underage at age 16 really doesn't float. That is the age of consent in many states.

270 Jack Burton  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 10:09:29pm

re: #217 Gus

The Chinese are coming to kill you so prepare yourself.

And they'll go on to rule the Universe from beyond the grave...

...or check into a psycho-ward first.

271 Kragar  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 10:12:07pm

re: #270 Jack Burton

And they'll go on to rule the Universe from beyond the grave...

...or check into a psycho-ward first.

Indeed.

272 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 10:16:02pm

So this wingnut is going on and on about how wrong all the economists are about Keynesian economics working in a recession. Extolling the expertise of some guy named Bertam Folsom who had it right in his book about how FDRs policies ruined the country, blah, blah...

I google for Bertam Folsom nothing. So I go back and ask him, who?

"Bertam Folsom and the book is New Deal or Raw Deal"

I google that and get "Did you mean: Burton Folsom book on new deal"

You would think if the wingnut thinks so highly of this guy as an economic genius he would at least be able to get his name right....sigh. :(

273 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 10:17:20pm

re: #268 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Let's move on to Mississippi

Lets not, I'm as close as I care to get right here in Florida.

274 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 10:18:50pm

re: #273 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Lets not, I'm as close as I care to get right here in Florida.

I would not want to be a child in the Mississippi system.

275 dragonath  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 10:21:38pm

re: #272 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Bertam sounds like it should be a good proper economist's name. Right up there with Zoltan, Merton, and Hjalmar.

276 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 10:22:49pm

re: #275 dragonath

Bertam sounds like it should be a good proper economist's name. Right up there with Zoltan, Merton, and Hjalmar.

Zoltan? Isn't he the pan-flute guy?

277 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 10:24:27pm

Wait!

Jack Burton, what would you say?

278 dragonath  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 10:26:13pm

re: #276 Holidays are Family Fun Time

And, Zoltan, lizard guy!

279 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 10:28:22pm

re: #278 dragonath

And, Zoltan, lizard guy!

Ah!

Dr. Zoltan, I presume.

280 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 10:30:03pm

nonnononono

The pan flute guy is Zamfir.

I guess people really like the pan flute.

281 Jack Burton  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 10:30:10pm

re: #277 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Wait!

Jack Burton, what would you say?

Ol' Jack always says... what the hell...

282 dragonath  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 10:30:37pm

re: #279 Holidays are Family Fun Time

You know, if you google that... this image comes up.

Image: 2990642959_95e97d2eaf.jpg

283 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 10:31:39pm

re: #282 dragonath

You know, if you google that... this image comes up.

Image: 2990642959_95e97d2eaf.jpg

No, if I google that, this comes up.

284 dragonath  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 10:32:00pm

Argggggghhhh!!

285 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 10:33:03pm

re: #284 dragonath

Argggggghhhh!!

teehee

286 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 10:38:14pm

nytol!

287 Targetpractice  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 11:28:43pm

It's quiet...too quiet...

288 danhenry1  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 11:28:48pm

re: #13 Charles Johnson

Got 'Experienced', at the Framingham, Ma. Music Circus...think it was the summer of 69. But who remembers?
Best concert I was ever AT.
Or maybe not. Buffalo Springfield, the Byrds, Detroit Wheels, and Beach Boys all at the dinky 4 Seasons Arena, Walpoe, MA were all good,think the had a a Shindig show there also. Think those were 66 and 67, wild times, and No 'War on Drugs', we should have ad a War on Vietnam insteeadrather than 'Boxcite mines, Doominoes.
I like all these ideas for eliminating federal spending, sopping war on drugs,(all of them, tax them, and use for rehabbing..do more work on automating driving, and dramatic speed increases in light rail and long distance rail
Stop completely, private funding of prisons.. One month for election campaigns. Year round and Clear subject matter areas in math, English, the sciences one needs.. Early childhood development, periods of young adults just coming up with some wild nutty things.
a Requirement of service to our country for ever body ot the in some field. Military, education,oversea,hospitals, helping the poor, here and overseas. We have an awful lot to do, what are we waiting for.

289 danhenry1  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 11:31:23pm

We have a lot to do so let's get cracking

290 danhenry1  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 11:35:29pm

What's this Holiday family Fun Shit? It over people, we have things need doing, so let's stop with the bullshit and get to work. We won this election. Start believing in what we can do.

291 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 12:19:48am

Nations like Switzerland have low income taxes and almost no loopholes, deductions or deferrals. The idea being that people put their money into creating wealth rather than hiding it from the taxman.

If hiring anohter lawyer is going to help a company's bottom line more than hiring an engineer, then the choice is clear. General Electric, which pays almost no taxes, has the largest legal department in the world.

And a flat rate of 15% without deductions would still mean that Mitt Romney is paying more taxes than he has in the two years he declared...

292 researchok  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 12:31:09am

Morning, all

293 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 12:52:28am

Checked again, General Electric even received a tax credit of several billion in 2011. All those lawyers are positive bonus to the company. Who needs engineers, much less assembly-line employees?

294 freetoken  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 1:13:17am
295 researchok  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 1:15:36am

re: #294 freetoken

Need to reboot.

Won't play.

296 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 1:16:21am

This is critical: the thread is nearly flatline and the Freetoken musical drip bottle is blocked!!!

297 freetoken  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 1:20:02am

re: #295 researchok

re: #296 Sol Berdinowitz

Strange. It plays for me. Maybe you've missed your required clearance processing at your local FEMA camp?

In the meantime, a consolation prize - the Moonglows!:

298 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 1:23:59am

re: #297 freetoken

#294 will not even load,much less play. Moonglows are fine

299 researchok  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 1:36:55am

re: #297 freetoken

Good stuff.

Obviously, FEMA approved.

300 researchok  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 1:37:52am

294 still dead for me as well.

301 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 1:41:27am

A song not for FEMA, but for the FBI (there was no FEMA back then)

The Pause of Mr Claus

302 researchok  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 1:51:28am

re: #301 Sol Berdinowitz

Classic.

I had never heard that

303 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 2:40:04am

Oh no it's The Rapture.

304 freetoken  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 3:04:10am

re: #298 Sol Berdinowitz

#294 will not even load,much less play. Moonglows are fine

You need to be FEMA processed.

305 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 3:07:57am

Since we had The Rapture, I guess it's time for Hallelujah!

306 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 3:07:58am

re: #303 Obdicut

Oh no it's The Rapture.

[Embedded content]

F+ck FEMA, I cannot get this one because of GEMA (The German equivalent of ASCAP/BMI) they will not grant rights to it in Germany.

So I gotta go through the whole damn alphabet, FEMA, GEMA, HEMA, IEMA, JEMA, KEMA, LEMA, MEMA, NEMA...

307 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 3:13:39am

re: #306 Sol Berdinowitz

Give this one a shot at let me know if it works. I have a theory.

308 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 3:32:33am

works

309 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 3:43:22am

re: #308 Sol Berdinowitz

It lacked the little tags at the bottom for where to buy it or buy tickets: I figured if that algorithm missed it, so did the DRM algorithm.

310 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 3:44:32am

not that I would ever wanna buy tickets for these guys...

311 Targetpractice  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 4:09:22am

Seems the Dems have started to wise up:

Democrats’ Big Budget Ask

Democratic leaders, frustrated by the GOP’s unwillingness to reckon with the need to raise taxes, are publicly airing the hard-bargaining demands they’re bringing to budget negotiations with Republicans.

The Senate’s top two Democrats, in separate remarks Tuesday, each said that Congress could avoid looming across-the-board tax increases and spending cuts if House Republicans agree to freeze all the Bush tax rates except those benefitting top earners. If that were accompanied by an increase in the debt limit, and the creation of a separate track for reforming the tax code and social safety net programs in 2013, the near-term austerity problem will be solved, and lawmakers can call it a day.

In other words, Senate Democrats are staking out the position that entitlement reform should not be on the table in fiscal cliff negotiations.

And they shouldn't be, because the Dems have already agreed to over $1.5 trillion in spending cuts since '10. If the GOP wants to talk reform, it can happen later, not as part of a deal to handle the "fiscal cliff."

312 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 4:11:37am

The only battle now is one over which party gets stuck with the blame when we drive full-speed over the "Fiscal Cliff" with our eyes open and the stereo blaring...

313 Targetpractice  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 4:15:14am

re: #312 Sol Berdinowitz

The only battle now is one over which party gets stuck with the blame when we drive full-speed over the "Fiscal Cliff" with our eyes open and the stereo blaring...

Last I'd heard, polls are still running against the GOP on this one. They may think they can somehow blame Obama for the cliff existing in the first place, but that doesn't really sell. They orchestrated this whole mess in the name of political opportunism, expecting that they'd win the election and be in a position to dictate the terms of how the cliff would be addressed. Instead, they're now stuck deciding whether to go against Norquist's pledge and draw his ire or stick to it and hope they can convince the public that they had no other choice.

314 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 4:18:38am

Morning Honcos.

315 sattv4u2  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 4:43:49am

re: #314 Cannadian Club Akbar

Morning Honcos.

Thank God I was just about to leave!

316 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 4:48:16am

re: #315 sattv4u2

Thank God I was just about to leave!

Man, I kinda hit the wall about 4AM. I'm gonna try to get to as close to noon as I can before going nappy time.

317 sattv4u2  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 4:53:09am

re: #316 Cannadian Club Akbar

Man, I kinda hit the wall about 4AM. I'm gonna try to get to as close to noon as I can before going nappy time.

Getting ready to head home in a few myself. Been awake since about 3 yesterday afternoon, so as soon as I do get home it's hit-the-sack-time

318 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 5:37:39am

A guy I grew up with who became #1 in his weight class for kickboxing posted this on FB. Awesome. Don' fuck with the old guy!!!

319 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 5:44:41am

re: #318 Cannadian Club Akbar

A guy I grew up with who became #1 in his weight class for kickboxing posted this on FB. Awesome. Don' fuck with the old guy!!!

[Embedded content]

My friend.
Erik Marshall has accomplished a tremendous amount as a professional kickboxer and is also a superior instructor of children and adults. Erik has traveled and competed across the country and the world. He is a second degree black belt in Moodokwan, or full contact kickboxing, and is an eight-time amateur and three-time professional kickboxing champion (including two world titles along with five amateur world titles). He owns and operates Extreme Marshall Arts,a leading training center for martial arts and fitness.
[Link: www.kickboxingfitnessinstitute.com...]

320 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 6:02:40am

re: #319 Cannadian Club Akbar

Which titles?

321 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 6:06:27am

re: #320 Obdicut

Which titles?

Not sure, honestly. Not sure how they do weight classes with that stuff.

322 Flounder  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 6:07:24am

re: #319 Cannadian Club Akbar

Samantha could kick that old man's ass!
[Link: www.motherjones.com...]

re: #58 jaunte

And thank you Jaunte for the link above, great read.

323 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 6:14:00am

re: #321 Cannadian Club Akbar

Not sure, honestly. Not sure how they do weight classes with that stuff.

Oh, there's no unified kickboxing organizations, so titles are whoever put it up. If you bought a shiny trophy and organized a competition, you could crown someone "World champion". Only a few of the organizations have really serious stuff with top contenders. In general, the best kickboxers are recognized as the professional Muay Thai fighters in Thailand, though that's a little mobbed up so who gets fights and who doesn't can be political.

Basically, titles won in kickboxing are meaningless; some specific titles matter. Being a pro in Thailand matters above all that.

324 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 6:25:54am

re: #323 Obdicut

Well, he's a few years younger than me so I am sure things were more organized and mapped out back then. I bet he owns a shiny trophy shop!!!
///

325 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 6:43:43am

re: #324 Cannadian Club Akbar

Well, he's a few years younger than me so I am sure things were more organized and mapped out back then. I bet he owns a shiny trophy shop!!!
///

[puts trophy cup over CCA's head, then hits cup with small hammer ala Bugs Bunny.]

Good morning, all.

326 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 6:56:02am

Time to hit the sack. Late nights are killing me. But I'll survive.:)

327 darthstar  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:07:38am

Mornin' everyone. I'll give you three guesses who has gone Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs

This is your brain.

This is your brain on Benghazi.

328 darthstar  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:16:44am

Mitt Romney to go help President Obama transition into his second term, because if there's one thing Mitt Romney knows about, it's how to run a second term. (Really, he's just going for the gifts.)

329 darthstar  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:21:37am
330 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:25:16am

re: #328 darthstar

Mitt Romney to go help President Obama transition into his second term, because if there's one thing Mitt Romney knows about, it's how to run a second term. (Really, he's just going for the gifts.)

[Embedded content]

It's just lunch. No harm in that.

Alexi Giannoulias and Mark Kirk had their own 'beer summit' at the Billy Goat Tavern on Lower Michigan Ave in Chicago after the 2010 Senate race Kirk won. Though Mitt Romney going into the Billy Goat would have been just a big a fish-out-of-water FAIL as when George Bush the Elder did that over 20 years ago. But it wouldn't have been a FAIL for his son to go there, nor for Bill Clinton or Barack Obama. Which is part of why I was so skeptical of Romney early on: He's never been someone ordinary people identify with. I set that skepticism aside this summer, mostly in an subconscious effort to keep my own spirits up, but my understanding of Romney's inability to "go to the Billy Goat" turned out to be correct.

331 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:25:57am
332 lawhawk  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:28:59am

re: #331 Gus

[Embedded content]

Yeah, if you're gay and you've got a bunch of homophobes who would like nothing better than see you dead (eg. Uganda).

333 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:29:46am

re: #329 darthstar

[Embedded content]

She'sa a rotter and ought to be hounded till she resigns. Most US legislative bodies have a mechanism for expelling a member. If that city council in NH has one, it should be used. Not be because she is transgendered, but because she is a career criminal who even now has yet to repay her debt to one of her victims. And if she cannot be removed, her salary should be garnished to repay the woman she defrauded.

334 darthstar  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:33:02am
335 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:35:48am

re: #332 lawhawk

Yeah, if you're gay and you've got a bunch of homophobes who would like nothing better than see you dead (eg. Uganda).

Yeah. Warren is communicating to his ignorant loud mouthed white suburban redneck audience.

336 darthstar  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:37:34am
337 darthstar  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:39:41am

re: #333 Dark_Falcon

New Hampshire is now part of Canada? No wonder Romney lost. Recount!

338 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:39:50am

re: #334 darthstar

[Embedded content]

Follow Up: Ed Schultz is still a buffoon.

339 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:40:21am

re: #337 darthstar

New Hampshire is now part of Canada? No wonder Romney lost. Recount!

Oops. Edited.

340 darthstar  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:44:33am

re: #338 Dark_Falcon

Follow Up: Ed Schultz is still a buffoon.

He's just having fun basking in victory as I am (what you call being a "sore winner"). Admit it, if Romney had won, you'd be doing a happy dance all over the place and gloating about the end of organized labor, worker's rights, health care, social safety nets--including the one you're on--and women's rights. Because that was Romney's platform in the end, thanks to his willingness to cater to the crazies in his base.

341 EmmaAnne  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:44:35am

re: #32 Amory Blaine

He actually looks like a real person in that picture. My caption: Wants a rematch because they kept him locked up for the entire campaign and used the Romneybot 3000 to campaign.

342 darthstar  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:45:24am

re: #32 Amory Blaine

Caption This Pic

The world needs gas pumpers too.

343 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:46:03am

re: #340 darthstar

He's just having fun basking in victory as I am (what you call being a "sore winner"). Admit it, if Romney had won, you'd be doing a happy dance all over the place and gloating about the end of organized labor, worker's rights, health care, social safety nets--including the one you're on--and women's rights. Because that was Romney's platform in the end, thanks to his willingness to cater to the crazies in his base.

No, I'm actually quite gracious in victory. I'd have finished doing the happy dance two weeks ago. :D

344 darthstar  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:47:31am

re: #343 Dark_Falcon

No, I'm actually quite gracious in victory. I'd have finished doing the happy dance two weeks ago. :D

I continue doing it for the aerobic benefits it provides. Try it! President Obama's going to help you out as well (rising tides, all boats).

345 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:50:28am

Benghazi China!

346 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:53:14am

re: #345 Gus

Benghazi China!

Calm down, Gus. Don't make me get out the taser again.

347 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:56:04am

He's also a Christian Scientist. [Cough]

348 darthstar  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:56:46am
349 darthstar  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:57:38am

re: #347 Gus

[Embedded content]

He's also a Christian Scientist. [Cough]

You should say a prayer for that cough.

350 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:59:17am

re: #349 darthstar

You should say a prayer for that cough.

Yeah. Either that or kill a bird, throw it over my shoulder, and boil an eye of newt. Same difference.

351 dragonfire1981  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:00:41am
352 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:01:33am

re: #193 Interesting Times

[Embedded content]

Harper is such a douche. He even has that prerequisite baby-face conservative look about him.

353 darthstar  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:01:39am

re: #350 Gus

Yeah. Either that or kill a bird, throw it over my shoulder, and boil an eye of newt. Same difference.

If Callista catches him with another young hooker, she'll probably provide that eye for you if you ask.

354 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:05:38am
355 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:07:27am

Oh yeah. Forgot about this...

356 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:08:02am

I can hear the twang from here.

//

357 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:08:18am
358 darthstar  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:09:53am

re: #357 Gus

What are the odds?

359 CuriousLurker  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:11:00am

Just ran across this (liberal) guy named Mario Piperni that does political illustrations. Some of them were pretty funny. There are a ton of them and I haven't had a chance to go through all of them yet, but so far my favorites are Tucker Carlson as The Daily Troller and—this one's for you, D_F—Michele Bachmann (be careful it'll give you nightmares).

They're all licensed under Creative Commons, so you can use them as long as you attribute them and link back to him.

Gotta get to work now...

360 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:12:05am

re: #358 darthstar

What are the odds?

Group sex? /

361 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:14:25am

re: #355 Gus

To be fair, they have shitloads of old white men. That's pretty much the GOP.

362 dragonfire1981  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:15:13am

re: #355 Gus

Oh yeah. Forgot about this...

[Embedded content]

363 darthstar  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:15:58am

Time to get ready for work. But I'll leave you with news about a total fucking retard who thinks his career as a grammatically challenged blogger makes him some kind of political wannabe.

364 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:16:21am

re: #361 Obdicut

To be fair, they have shitloads of old white men. That's pretty much the GOP.

There you have it then. The House represents old angry white rednecks.

365 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:16:54am

re: #363 darthstar

Time to get ready for work. But I'll leave you with news about a total fucking retard who thinks his career as a grammatically challenged blogger makes him some kind of political wannabe.

[Embedded content]

Prayerfully. [Vomit] These people make me ill.

366 Interesting Times  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:17:49am

re: #361 Obdicut

To be fair, they have shitloads of old white men. That's pretty much the GOP.

Count the Republicans in this picture. Hint: only one hand required.

367 bratwurst  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:18:05am

re: #347 Gus

[Embedded content]

He's also a Christian Scientist. [Cough]

Well, that is a type of science, no?

368 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:19:06am

re: #367 bratwurst

Well, that is a type of science, no?

Yep, and astrology is a form of astronomy. //

369 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:19:36am

re: #363 darthstar

Time to get ready for work. But I'll leave you with news about a total fucking retard who thinks his career as a grammatically challenged blogger makes him some kind of political wannabe.

[Embedded content]

Eric Erickson for Senate: Because John Roberts is a goat fucking child molester.

370 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:20:17am

re: #369 HappyWarrior

Eric Erickson for Senate: Because John Roberts is a goat fucking child molester.

Prayerfully.

371 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:21:39am

Saxby Chambliss is a nut. Erick Erickson is a nut.

SNAFU

Twangy Republicans.

372 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:21:39am

re: #359 CuriousLurker

Just ran across this (liberal) guy named Mario Piperni that does political illustrations. Some of them were pretty funny. There are a ton of them and I haven't had a chance to go through all of them yet, but so far my favorites are Tucker Carlson as The Daily Troller and—this one's for you, D_F—Michele Bachmann (be careful it'll give you nightmares).

They're all licensed under Creative Commons, so you can use them as long as you attribute them and link back to him.

Gotta get to work now...

It doesn't bother me at all. I despise Michele Bachmann.

373 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:21:57am

re: #370 Gus

Prayerfully.

That's right.

374 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:22:31am

Good morning lizards!

375 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:23:04am

re: #371 Gus

Saxby Chambliss is a nut. Erick Erickson is a nut.

SNAFU

Twangy Republicans.

That pretty much sums up what pretty much what every Republican senate primary will be sans Susan Collins in 2014. Who can be more nuts than the other.

376 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:23:32am

re: #373 HappyWarrior

That's right.

I'd like to know the year when all of these dudes morphed into fake church-ladies.

377 ReamWorks SKG  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:23:33am

If the left really wants to build a consensus, they'll have to look like they want to save money.

California's budget crisis is due, in part, to not wanting to reduce spending when tax revenue is down. They raised their budgets to meet the increased revenues during two tax bubbles, and when the bubbles burst, they raise taxes to keep everything going.

And I'm also annoyed that whenever I hear anyone say "End The Bush Tax Cuts" the don't mean end _all_ the Bush Tax Cuts--just the ones for the top 1 or 2 brackets. The Democrats may actually get more support for ending them all! That's the option I'd prefer--if combined with true, meaningful cuts to spending.

And I agree that raising the age of eligibility for SS and Medicare (to compensate for increased life spans) is a reasonable idea. I prefer it to means-testing.

378 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:25:18am
379 wrenchwench  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:25:21am

That there would be some science.

380 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:26:35am

re: #376 Gus

I'd like to know the year when all of these dudes morphed into fake church-ladies.

Haha seriously which is why I included how he described Roberts after Roberts ruled against his side in the ACA case.

381 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:28:03am

Hi! I'm in Amsterdam!

382 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:28:35am

re: #381 Vicious Babushka

Hi! I'm in Amsterdam!

Didn't you misspell that first word?

383 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:28:41am

re: #380 HappyWarrior

Haha seriously which is why I included how he described Roberts after Roberts ruled against his side in the ACA case.

Yeah, and we all know that "men of God" are so charitable and speak as kindly as Erickson. [Barf.]

384 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:29:06am

re: #381 Vicious Babushka

Hi! I'm in Amsterdam!

Are you baked yet?

//

385 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:29:30am

re: #382 Obdicut

Didn't you misspell that first word?

I'm not high.

386 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:30:11am

re: #378 Gus

Derivative. And he calls it 'pee-pee'. What sort of grown man does that?

He'd make more sense as a muppet. A crazy conspiracy-spouting muppet who the other muppets felt bad for and tried to be nice to despite his obvious mental health problems.

387 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:30:38am

re: #386 Obdicut

Derivative. And he calls it 'pee-pee'. What sort of grown man does that?

He'd make more sense as a muppet. A crazy conspiracy-spouting muppet who the other muppets felt bad for and tried to be nice to despite his obvious mental health problems.

Haha. This.

388 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:31:22am

re: #383 Gus

Yeah, and we all know that "men of God" are so charitable and speak as kindly as Erickson. [Barf.]

Yep. Seriously it's so funny to see guys who act as vulgar as the next person sell themselves as men of God.

389 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:31:51am

re: #385 Vicious Babushka

I'm not high.

You just have 24 hours there, right? Are you allowed out of the airport or do you have to stick it there to avoid customs?

390 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:33:17am

We are going out to dinner soon. We arrived this morning, spent about an hour and a half at the airport collecting our luggage and then stowing it in a storage locker for the trip to Tel Aviv tomorrow, then we checked into the hotel.

Nap, then I went to the Jewish Museum (because: GUILT), walked around a whole bunch along the canals, then took a tram back to the hotel.

Passed a lot of weed cafes but I was too chicken to go in. I could use a toke, MY FEET ARE KILLING.

391 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:35:02am

re: #390 Vicious Babushka

They would be absolutely enchanted by you at the cafes, if you did decide to go in. And it's almost the last chance-- next year, they're for residents only.

But hell, it's just weed, it's not that big a deal. Amsterdam is lots of fun without it.

392 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:35:44am

This was my very first time traveling business class. IT'S A WHOLE NEW WORLD at the front of the aircraft. The seat reclines completely back!

393 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:36:44am

re: #386 Obdicut

Derivative. And he calls it 'pee-pee'. What sort of grown man does that?

He'd make more sense as a muppet. A crazy conspiracy-spouting muppet who the other muppets felt bad for and tried to be nice to despite his obvious mental health problems.

Call him 'Derpy the Troll'. He could be a character brought in for about 2/3rds of a season and then kicked out by the other characters for finally being simply too obnoxious to be tolerable. Then they'd sing a song about why "bad people sometimes need to be sent away".

394 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:37:40am

Hold on a second. It appears that Angus T. Jones is sorry. Oops, forget everything I said, or something.

395 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:38:52am

re: #394 Gus

Hold on a second. It appears that Angus T. Jones is sorry. Oops, forget everything I said, or something.

He regrets the threat his words pose to his wallet. #winning

396 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:40:06am

It is really a beautiful city. Lots of people on bikes. Bikes, bikes everywhere and if you get in the way they will tinkle their bike bells at you before they run you down!

397 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:40:48am

re: #395 Dark_Falcon

He regrets the threat his words pose to his wallet.

Mortgage payment! Damn it. OK, forget what I said! //

398 CuriousLurker  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:41:02am

re: #372 Dark_Falcon

It doesn't bother me at all. I despise Michele Bachmann.

Yeah, I know--me too--but he captured her just a little bit too well.

399 CuriousLurker  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:41:28am

re: #396 Vicious Babushka

Bon voyage!

400 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:43:17am

re: #397 Gus

He's only nineteen. And he was a child star. That automatically means warped.

Seriously, what parent would be okay with their kid getting into acting, having seen what happens to child stars? There's a precious, precious few who make it through okay. Even the ones successful as adults normally had some goddamn rough times of it.

401 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:43:42am

Morning all!

I need more coffee.

you?

402 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:44:24am

re: #396 Vicious Babushka

It is really a beautiful city. Lots of people on bikes. Bikes, bikes everywhere and if you get in the way they will tinkle their bike bells at you before they run you down!

You should try Saigon Ho Chi Minh City sometime. It's masses of motor scooters. And the pedestrian advice there is the start across the street and cross it at a steady pace - they're good at missing you if you move in a predictable trajectory.

403 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:44:30am

re: #397 Gus

[Embedded content]

Mortgage payment! Damn it. OK, forget what I said! //

404 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:44:32am

re: #401 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Morning all!

I need more coffee.

you?

Morning? It's 6:00 in the evening here. Need coffee, need beer, need dinner, need a doobie.

405 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:45:46am

re: #404 Vicious Babushka

Morning? It's 6:00 in the evening here. Need coffee, need beer, need dinner, need a doobie.

I can relate. I always hurt in the am.

406 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:46:49am

re: #400 Obdicut

He's only nineteen. And he was a child star. That automatically means warped.

Seriously, what parent would be okay with their kid getting into acting, having seen what happens to child stars? There's a precious, precious few who make it through okay. Even the ones successful as adults normally had some goddamn rough times of it.

I actually "took his advice" years ago. Never watched it. Not that it's filth but just that I found it stupid and annoying. Only show I watch on a semi-regular basis is The Office.

407 dragonfire1981  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:46:58am
408 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:47:48am

Parks and Recreation is sometimes pretty good too.

409 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:47:57am

re: #400 Obdicut

He's only nineteen. And he was a child star. That automatically means warped.

Seriously, what parent would be okay with their kid getting into acting, having seen what happens to child stars? There's a precious, precious few who make it through okay. Even the ones successful as adults normally had some goddamn rough times of it.

Indeed:


Anna Nicole Smith's six-year-old daughter follows in tragic mother's footsteps as she launches modelling career

Parenting experts have voiced their concern for the six-year-old daughter of Anna Nicole Smith, who has landed her first modelling job as the face of Guess Kids.

Dannielynn Birkhead, who has lived with her father, Larry Birkhead, in Burbank, California, since her mother's tragic death after a drug overdose in 2007, fronts the spring 2013 campaign, and is seen posing on a beach in next season's denims.

But the launch of the campaign has sparked fear for the youngster, with many arguing that she should be sheltered from the spotlight, rather than paraded in front of it.

410 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:48:50am

re: #407 dragonfire1981

Did this ever get any play on LGF?

A dead link? I don't believe so, no.

411 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:49:30am

re: #406 Gus

I don't watch any current stuff, I just watch whatever my wife wants to on Netflix most of the time. And I watch old Rockford Files episodes. And I listen to a lot of old Bob and Ray shows, because Bob and Ray are awesome. Oh, and I watch MST3K.

Fascinating, I know.

412 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:50:08am

He's on to us!

413 lgffan  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:51:33am

re: #13 Charles Johnson

Saw Warren Haynes & Gov't Mule do a Halloween tribute to Jimi in Chicago - was as if he was channeling Hendrix.....amazing.

414 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:52:05am

re: #410 Dark_Falcon

A dead link? I don't believe so, no.

We get dead links all the time around here.

415 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:54:46am
416 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:58:03am

re: #415 Gus

[Embedded content]

Does it a funny way then by knocking out their leaders. I mean really this would be stupid if Louie was claiming that Obama was weak on terrorism. This borders on right wing fantasy that Obama actually is aiding and abetting Al Queda and does so with glee. Stupid right wing fuck Gohmert. Guy shouldn't be on a town board let alone in the US Congress.

417 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:58:26am

Dear god...

#ObamaInPeePee

...is trending.

418 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:59:10am
419 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:59:52am

Notice how Glenn Beck has the flag of Israel on his profile pic. Yeesh, what a douche. What the heck is that about?

420 The Gender Ambiguity of a Flea  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:00:33am

The Gohmert thing says:

It wasn’t enough to send verbal accolades; this administration sent planes and bombs and support to oust Gadhafi so that Al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood could take over Libya. Some of us were fussing about it back then but we faced what was then ‘all the rage’ and that was you know Muslim Brotherhood taking over, call it Arab Spring, call it Arab Winter, whatever you want to, but it was disastrous unless you were wanting a new Ottoman Empire to take place and that’s what this administration helped jump start. So with that same kind of spirit and enthusiasm and excitement that we saw from this administration as Al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood took over in Libya and has now taken over in Egypt, now we’re seeing that for the Morsi brokered temporary peace. There is not going to be any peace in the Middle East until the Palestinians—and Newt Gingrich is right, that’s a relatively new term, they certainly weren’t around 3,000 years ago when King David was ruling from Hebron for seven years and then Jerusalem.

421 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:03:01am

re: #419 Gus

He's just a proud Israeli citizen, not some American douchebag trying to take advantage of Israel for his own purposes while simultaneously pushing anti-semitic literature, that's for sure.

422 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:03:04am

re: #420 The Questionable Timing of a Flea

The Gohmert thing says:

Well this is why I have bourbon.

423 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:04:24am

re: #421 Obdicut

He's just a proud Israeli citizen, not some American douchebag trying to take advantage of Israel for his own purposes while simultaneously pushing anti-semitic literature, that's for sure.

Just another co-opting right wing asshole that's for sure.

424 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:05:36am
425 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:06:40am

re: #420 The Questionable Timing of a Flea

The Gohmert thing says:

Gohmert has forgotten that one of the justifications trotted out for the glorious liberation of Iraq was that it would spark a new explosion of liberty and democracy in the Middle East.

426 Mattand  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:07:01am

re: #411 Obdicut

Oh, and I watch MST3K.

Truly, you are a man of infinite taste.

Hikeeba!

427 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:07:37am

re: #416 HappyWarrior

Does it a funny way then by knocking out their leaders. I mean really this would be stupid if Louie was claiming that Obama was weak on terrorism. This borders on right wing fantasy that Obama actually is aiding and abetting Al Queda and does so with glee. Stupid right wing fuck Gohmert. Guy shouldn't be on a town board let alone in the US Congress.

We are going to be stuck with him until he's 137 years old.

In 2006, Gohmert won his second term by defeating independent Roger L. Owen, a swimming pool builder from Hallsville. He faced no major party opposition in 2008 or 2010.

On November 6, 2012, Gohmert was elected to his fifth term with 182,621 votes (71.7 percent) to the Democrat Shirley J. McKellar's 67,758 (26.6 percent). The Libertarian Clark Patterson polled the remaining 1.6 percent of the ballots.[1]

The district he's in is in East Texas, and a lot of that area is, shall we say, "culturally comparable" to what a lot of people envision when they think of Appalachia.

428 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:07:53am

Newsflash: Glenn Beck is still a Raving Freakazoid Nut Sandwich.

Footage at ELEVENTY!!1.

429 CuriousLurker  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:07:54am

re: #420 The Questionable Timing of a Flea

The Gohmert thing says:

Yeah, Gohmert enjoys hanging around with (supposedly "former") Kahanists, so I'm not at all surprised by his attitude. See Jeffrey Goldberg's post on The Texas Congressman and the Israeli Fascist.

430 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:07:57am

re: #424 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I just can't get excited about this.

Absolutely right. Who cares about hellbenders - I want to see a captive breeding program for Airbenders. I understand they're down to the last one.

431 The Gender Ambiguity of a Flea  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:08:46am

re: #419 Gus

Notice how Glenn Beck has the flag of Israel on his profile pic. Yeesh, what a douche. What the heck is that about?

Cleon Skousen endtimes believer, and therefore pro-Israel while dabbling in the standard JBS anti-semitism where in Jews are simultaneously Bolsheviks and an international banking syndicate.

You know...

Soros

.

432 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:09:06am

re: #424 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I just can't get excited about this.

Just feel mildly glad they won't be going extinct. That's enough.

433 Mattand  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:09:19am

re: #425 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

Gohmert has forgotten that one of the justifications trotted out for the glorious liberation of Iraq was that it would spark a new explosion of liberty and democracy in the Middle East.

That's what kills me about conservatives and the Middle East. They say they want democracy to flourish, until a ME country elects someone they don't like. Then it's all "bomb them because that's what Jesus wants."

434 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:10:45am

re: #424 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I just can't get excited about this.

Nashville Zoo is pleased to announce the captive breeding of Eastern Hellbenders for the first time as well as the first controlled breeding of any Hellbenders using biotechnology. The two Hellbenders were successfully hatched from eggs produced and artificially fertilized from the Zoo’s long-term captive animals.

Hellbender for leather!

435 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:12:03am

Obama used the word "screw!" Outrage!

436 BongCrodny  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:13:41am

re: #378 Gus

[Embedded content]

Glenn Beck makes his own ‘Piss Christ’ with Obama Bobblehead dangerousminds.net/comments/glenn…

I like the guy's tags for this story: "Glenn Beck," "low IQ" and "buffoonery."

437 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:15:34am

Anyone know anything about AmerAssist? They offered me an interview in Nashville.

438 danarchy  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:15:54am

re: #430 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

Absolutely right. Who cares about hellbenders - I want to see a captive breeding program for Airbenders. I understand they're down to the last one.

If you are down to the last one isn't a breeding program a little late? Besides he is still a little young for breeding...

439 GunstarGreen  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:17:07am

Nice page, although it's nothing new -- this has, for quite a long time, been the line of reasoning for social progressives with an eye towards fiscal sustainability. The government's size needs to be reduced -- but not by slashing programs designed to ensure the well-being of its citizens, as Republicans advocate. Rather, it should be accomplished by slashing the actual Big Brother elements of the government: the preposterously oversized Global Police Department we call our military, and the ludicrous War on Drugs (Newsflash: Nicotine and Alcohol are just as addictive and deadly as many more illegal substances), and by curtailing all of the porkbarrel graft shoveled into the waiting arms of big business (Agribusiness subsidies, Oil industry subsidies, etc.).

It's just that we figured out a long time ago that nobody who clutches pearls over "the budget" and "the deficit" actually gives one single shit about solving those issues, they just want an excuse to fuck the lower classes in the ass for the benefit of the ultra-wealthy. So we stopped bothering with putting up one side of an honest discussion on finances, never to be reciprocated by the other half.

440 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:17:08am

re: #438 danarchy

If you are down to the last one isn't a breeding program a little late? Besides he is still a little young for breeding...

Well, cloning then.

441 The Gender Ambiguity of a Flea  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:17:28am

Just out of curiousity I visited the Wikipedia entry for Piss Christ. Here's the last two chronological entries:

On April 17, 2011, a print of Piss Christ was vandalized "beyond repair" by Christian protesters while on display during the Je crois aux miracles (I believe in miracles) exhibition at the Collection Lambert, a contemporary art museum in Avignon, France. Serrano's photo The Church was similarly vandalized in the attack.

-

Beginning September 27, 2012, Piss Christ was on display at the Edward Tyler Nahem gallery in New York, at the Andres Serrano show "Body and Spirit." Religious groups and some lawmakers called for President Barack Obama to "denounce" the artwork, comparing it to the anti-Islamic film Innocence of Muslims that the White House had condemned earlier that month.

My wager is that Beck is going to start drumming about (1) Obama favoring Muslims over Christians and (2) that anyone that objects idolizes Obama over Jesus.

442 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:17:48am

Nevermind. The BBB has them at a C+ and a D+. I don't think I want to work for a company like that.

443 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:22:27am

re: #381 Vicious Babushka

Hi! I'm in Amsterdam!

Go check out the Metz Deparment store and take the elevator to cafe on the top floor. YOu will be high above Amsterdan and the harbor...

444 BongCrodny  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:24:51am

re: #437 NJDhockeyfan

Anyone know anything about AmerAssist? They offered me an interview in Nashville.

Doesn't always work, but if there's a company I want to know more about, I usually Google the name of the company followed by "fraud" or "scam" or something like that and then check out the results.

445 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:25:44am

re: #442 NJDhockeyfan

Nevermind. The BBB has them at a C+ and a D+. I don't think I want to work for a company like that.

Agreed. Run away, don't walk away.

446 dragonath  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:26:56am

Hey, Youtube changed again.

Dammit.

447 The Gender Ambiguity of a Flea  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:27:02am

Beck's 'Obama in Pee Pee' Masterpiece Bid Up to Nearly $12K on eBay Before Disappearing

Glenn Beck opened his program last night with a long segment responding to the recent controversy over a a painting that depicts President Obama in a Christ-like pose and wearing a crown of thorns that has gone on display at Boston's Bunker Hill Community College Art Gallery.

Beck began by pretending to be a snooty art critic taking shots at several paintings he disliked by artists like Jackson Pollock, Vincent Van Gogh, and Peter Paul Rubens, before switching over a French artist character who went around "correcting" these paintings by covering up the nudity they contained or simply painting over them, all in order to make the point that the Constitution protects free expression and that while people are entirely free to get offended by certain works of art, they just have to learn to accept that as the price of freedom ... which he proceeded to demonstrate by submerging a bobblehead of President Obama in a mason jar supposedly filled with urine:

As a piece of performance art, it was all mildly entertaining, but the most interesting thing about it is that one of the underlying themes of the segment was how all of these piece of art, which he considers to be "crap," have sold for millions of dollars while he couldn't understand why people would waste good money on things like this.

So, of course, Beck has now put all of his own pieces up for sale on eBay, with the proceeds benefiting his Mercury One "Hope for the Holidays" charity effort, incuding his pièce de résistance, "Obama in Pee Pee," which had been bid up to nearly $12,000 ... before it suddenly disappeared from eBay:

UPDATE: Beck reports that the item was removed by eBay for violating the site's ban on "the sale of bodily waste."

448 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:29:03am

re: #447 The Questionable Timing of a Flea

Beck's 'Obama in Pee Pee' Masterpiece Bid Up to Nearly $12K on eBay Before Disappearing

Glenn Beck will likely sell it somewhere else, then FAIL all the way to the bank.

449 Jolo5309  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:29:51am

re: #448 Dark_Falcon

Glenn Beck will likely sell it somewhere else, then FAIL all the way to the bank.

He drank it

450 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:29:53am

Beck didn't like Van Gogh?

451 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:29:57am

Freaking telemarketers. Calls me up with the latest college scam asking for someone not me. I tell her a) you got the wrong number and b) put me on your do not call list. Then she asks me what I would say she has the wrong number. I had to repeat "a" twice to this lady. Um, you asked for the wrong person. Go away please!

Time to get a new phone number.

452 jaunte  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:30:20am

re: #447 The Questionable Timing of a Flea

...with the proceeds benefiting his Mercury One "Hope for the Holidays" charity effort...

War on Christmas!

453 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:30:29am

re: #449 Jolo5309

He drank it

Explains why he's always pissy.

454 The Gender Ambiguity of a Flea  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:30:41am

re: #448 Dark_Falcon

Glenn Beck will likely sell it somewhere else, then FAIL all the way to the bank.

Bank? I think you mean "gold coin broker/Survival Seed vendor."

455 dragonath  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:30:55am

Yay, let's mimic artists we hate!

456 Jolo5309  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:32:07am

re: #455 dragonath

Yay, let's mimic artists we hate!

Does this mean I have to sing Air Supply & Journey songs?

457 TedStriker  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:32:10am

re: #447 The Questionable Timing of a Flea

Beck's 'Obama in Pee Pee' Masterpiece Bid Up to Nearly $12K on eBay Before Disappearing

Glenn, "Piss Christ" was a wee bit pretentious, IMO...so is your "piece".

458 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:32:37am

re: #447 The Questionable Timing of a Flea

Beck's 'Obama in Pee Pee' Masterpiece Bid Up to Nearly $12K on eBay Before Disappearing

UPDATE: Beck reports that the item was removed by eBay for violating the site's ban on "the sale of bodily waste."

Hahahaha! What a freak.

459 jaunte  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:33:17am

Maybe Beck can get McNaughton onto his show to do a collaborative didactic chalk art piece.

460 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:33:32am

re: #456 Jolo5309

Does this mean I have to sing Air Supply & Journey songs?

461 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:34:17am

re: #447 The Questionable Timing of a Flea

Beck's 'Obama in Pee Pee' Masterpiece Bid Up to Nearly $12K on eBay Before Disappearing

Do not forget Glenn's background as a morning shock jock DJ: he is simply going back to his roots, namely anything to keep people's attention while they are driving to work...

462 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:34:36am

re: #444 BongCrodny

Doesn't always work, but if there's a company I want to know more about, I usually Google the name of the company followed by "fraud" or "scam" or something like that and then check out the results.

I didn't have to do that. Just searching for the name by itself brought up lots of scam complaint links. I checked with the BBB to make sure it wasn't just people bitching about the company. There isn't a big company anywhere that doesn't have websites created just for complaining about them.

463 The Gender Ambiguity of a Flea  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:35:28am

re: #450 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Beck didn't like Van Gogh?

Beck strikes me as someone who likes shmaltz-y pseudo-Rockwell stuff, Rockwells that contain neither satirical elements nor blah people, and the "Obama burns the Constitution" guy.

If they made Chinese propaganda posters with white people and the Founding Fathers rather than Mao and Chinese folks, that would be perfect.

464 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:36:27am

OH NO! YET ANOTHER UN THREAT LOOMING!

Morning Bell: Disabilities Treaty Just Another U.N. Power Grab

The disabilities treaty could open the door for abortion advocates “to pressure the U.S. to liberalize its domestic abortion laws or policies governing foreign aid for family planning,” says Heritage’s Grace Melton. U.N. officials have already pointed to language in the treaty as helpful in expanding abortion.
As if all of this weren’t enough, U.N. treaties are always aimed directly at Americans’ wallets. This one is no different. The cost of enforcing it is unknown. Not only does the treaty fail to define who would be considered disabled, but it also adds entitlements to whoever that may be. In addition to covering traditional civil rights, the treaty attempts to guarantee:

certain economic, social, and cultural “positive rights,” such as the right to education, health, and “an adequate standard of living for [persons with disabilities] and their families, including adequate food, clothing and housing, and to the continuous improvement of living conditions.

More rights for people with disabilities? Wait a minute! I thought that Mother of All UN Power Grabs, Agenda 21, was going to lead to euthanasia of the disabled. Maybe they will offset each other, and nothing much will happen (as usual with these cosmic threats from the UN).

465 Jolo5309  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:37:26am

re: #460 Dark_Falcon

www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWdZEumNRmI

The only one I can stomach is Making Love Out of Nothing at All, and that is only because it is so obviously a Steinman song

466 HappyWarrior  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:39:44am

re: #464 Shiplord Kirel

OH NO! YET ANOTHER UN THREAT LOOMING!

Morning Bell: Disabilities Treaty Just Another U.N. Power Grab

More rights for people with disabilities? Wait a minute! I thought that Mother of All UN Power Grabs, Agenda 21, was going to lead to euthanasia of the disabled. Maybe they will offset each other, and nothing much will happen (as usual with these cosmic threats from the UN).

They are so fucking annoyingly stupid.

467 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:41:40am

re: #465 Jolo5309

The only one I can stomach is Making Love Out of Nothing at All, and that is only because it is so obviously a Steinman song

Sorry.

468 jaunte  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:41:50am

Meanwhile in the money-burning capital of the world...

The Bipartisan Policy Center has calculated that last year’s debt ceiling fight will ultimately cost taxpayers $18.9 billion over 10 years, due to elevated interest rates between January and August 2011. “This is what they wasted last year,” said Steve Bell of the center, and a former GOP Senate aide.
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

469 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:42:47am

re: #464 Shiplord Kirel

OH NO! YET ANOTHER UN THREAT LOOMING!

Morning Bell: Disabilities Treaty Just Another U.N. Power Grab

Everyone knows that the UN exists only to diminish America's leading role in the world, they have not been worth a damn since they approved that police action in Korea in 1950...

470 CuriousLurker  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:46:05am

re: #450 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Beck didn't like Van Gogh?

I was scratching my head over that one too. I have a hard time figuring out what anyone could find offensive in his work. I know he lived with a prostitute for some years (she was pregnant when he met her and he later took her & her daughter into his home), so maybe his depictions of her was what Beck didn't like. As with Van Gogh, her story was a very sad one that ended in suicide.

I wouldn't expect a sanctimonious prick like Beck to have any empathy for someone like that, no, he would just be morally offended.

471 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:50:14am

re: #470 CuriousLurker

I was scratching my head over that one too. I have a hard time figuring out what anyone could find offensive in his work. I know he lived with a prostitute for some years (she was pregnant when he met her and he later took her & her daughter into his home), so maybe his depictions of her was what Beck didn't like. As with Van Gogh, her story was a very sad one that ended in suicide.

I wouldn't expect a sanctimonious prick like Beck to have any empathy for someone like that, no, he would just be morally offended.

Beck likely thinks he should have shamed her as a slut and then seen her daughter given to a religious institution to be raised in a 'proper christian manner'.

472 CuriousLurker  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:51:36am

re: #471 Dark_Falcon

Beck likely thinks he should have shamed her as a slut and then seen her daughter given to a religious institution to be raised in a 'proper christian manner'.

Exactly.

473 TedStriker  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:58:22am

re: #470 CuriousLurker

I was scratching my head over that one too. I have a hard time figuring out what anyone could find offensive in his work. I know he lived with a prostitute for some years (she was pregnant when he met her and he later took her & her daughter into his home), so maybe his depictions of her was what Beck didn't like. As with Van Gogh, her story was a very sad one that ended in suicide.

I wouldn't expect a sanctimonious prick like Beck to have any empathy for someone like that, no, he would just be morally offended.

re: #471 Dark_Falcon

Beck likely thinks he should have shamed her as a slut and then seen her daughter given to a religious institution to be raised in a 'proper christian manner'.

re: #472 CuriousLurker

Exactly.

I think that GB would have been comfortable as an inquisitor at the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem Witch Trials.

474 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 10:02:18am

re: #473 TedStriker

re: #471 Dark_Falcon

re: #472 CuriousLurker

I think that GB would have been comfortable as an inquisitor at the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem Witch Trials.

No, he woulda been one of the guys standing outside on the town square, whipping up the mases into fits of righetous indignation and frenzy...

475 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 10:04:20am

re: #474 Sol Berdinowitz

No, he woulda been one of the guys standing outside on the town square, whipping up the mases into fits of righetous indignation and frenzy...

Then running to the next town when the heat looked like it might focus on him.

476 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 10:06:16am

re: #425 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

Gohmert has forgotten that one of the justifications trotted out for the glorious liberation of Iraq was that it would spark a new explosion of liberty and democracy in the Middle East.

Didn't St Reagan bomb some dictator in Libya?

477 CuriousLurker  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 10:06:19am

re: #473 TedStriker

re: #471 Dark_Falcon

re: #472 CuriousLurker

I think that GB would have been comfortable as an inquisitor at the Spanish Inquistion or the Salem Witch Trials.

I hate that self-righteous bullshit, y'know? The two years with Sien, the prostitute, and her daughter was the only domestic relationship Van Gogh ever had. His brother Theo was the only one who didn't withdraw support from him for it. I can't help but wonder if they'd been allowed to stay together and create a family--no matter how poor & imperfect--perhaps they could have found some measure of happiness & comfort in each other. But NO, that's not good enough. Gah!

478 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 10:07:09am

re: #477 CuriousLurker

I hate that self-righteous bullshit, y'know? The two years with Sien, the prostitute, and her daughter was the only domestic relationship Van Gogh ever had. His brother Theo was the only one who didn't withdraw support from him for it. I can't help but wonder if they'd been allowed to stay together and create a family--no matter how poor & imperfect--perhaps they could have found some measure of happiness & comfort in each other. But NO, that's not good enough. Gah!

HIs art, like Pollack's, probably wasn't pious and drab enough.

479 dragonath  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 10:09:07am

Top Romney Adviser Brags About Losing Poor, Minority Voters To Obama

That’s the thesis anyway of top adviser Stuart Stevens, who penned an op-ed in the Washington Post on Wednesday arguing that by winning wealthier and whiter voters, Romney secured the moral victory over Obama.

“On Nov. 6, Mitt Romney carried the majority of every economic group except those with less than $50,000 a year in household income,” Stevens wrote. “That means he carried the majority of middle-class voters. While John McCain lost white voters under 30 by 10 points, Romney won those voters by seven points, a 17-point shift.”

480 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 10:09:37am

re: #474 Sol Berdinowitz

No, he woulda been one of the guys standing outside on the town square, whipping up the mases into fits of righetous indignation and frenzy...

Exactly. Being a judge would mean taking responsibility and acting according to the law in Massachusetts (none of the Salem judges dealt primarily with witchcraft, and none of them were new to the bench) while being an Inquisitor mean conforming to Catholic religious law and doctrine, which would be too much for Glenn Beck. He's not the kind who can accept actual power. He's what I call the "Permanent Opposition".

481 Gus  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 10:09:50am

That's funny. I could have sworn that Romney did a clean sweep of all but one of the poorest states in America.

482 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 10:11:58am
483 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 10:12:29am

re: #476 Feline Fearless Leader

Didn't St Reagan bomb some dictator in Libya?

BENGHAZI!!1

484 CuriousLurker  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 10:18:33am

re: #474 Sol Berdinowitz

No, he woulda been one of the guys standing outside on the town square, whipping up the mases into fits of righetous indignation and frenzy...

re: #478 Holidays are Family Fun Time

HIs art, like Pollack's, probably wasn't pious and drab enough.

Jesus' (a.s.) mother Mary (a.s.), being single & pregnant with him, probably would've also drawn the righteous ire of people like Beck & Co. No doubt she would've been a candidate for slut shaming as well. Excuse me while I step away for a moment as I think my head is getting ready to explode...

485 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 10:21:40am

re: #484 CuriousLurker

re: #478 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Jesus' (a.s.) mother Mary (a.s.), being single & pregnant with him, probably would've also drawn the righteous ire of people like Beck & Co. No doubt she would've been a candidate for slut shaming as well. Excuse me while I step away for a moment as I think my head is getting ready to explode...

IIRC, she was "betrothed" to Joseph. Rules were a bit different about such things back then. We have no idea, really, what the situation was. My personal belief is that Jesus was Joseph's son. To save face for Joseph, every said Mary was a slut for G-d.

486 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 10:22:54am

re: #484 CuriousLurker

re: #478 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Jesus' (a.s.) mother Mary (a.s.), being single & pregnant with him, probably would've also drawn the righteous ire of people like Beck & Co. No doubt she would've been a candidate for slut shaming as well. Excuse me while I step away for a moment as I think my head is getting ready to explode...

She wasn't married but she was betrothed (engaged to be married), so she wasn't exactly single. Joseph was with her throughout her pregnancy, and he was with her when Jesus was born.

487 CuriousLurker  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 10:28:59am

re: #485 Holidays are Family Fun Time

re: #486 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, but I don't think betrothed would've helped. I'm not sure which rules would've applied, maybe halacha? Anyway, AFAIK in all the Abrahamic religions sex outside of marriage is strictly forbidden, betrothal notwithstanding. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone with more knowledge on the subject than I will give me an example that proves otherwise.

488 wrenchwench  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 10:50:54am

re: #487 CuriousLurker

re: #486 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, but I don't think betrothed would've helped. I'm not sure which rules would've applied, maybe halacha? Anyway, AFAIK in all the Abrahamic religions sex outside of marriage is strictly forbidden, betrothal notwithstanding. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone with more knowledge on the subject than I will give me an example that proves otherwise.

Sort of on topic.

489 JEA62  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 7:15:51am

Raising the eligibility age for Medicare does zip to reduce costs - it just transfers them to private insurance, which means those rates go up and the economy suffers when employers hire less, which forces more people - usually the least healthy - onto Medicaid. No such thing as a free lunch...

And Medicare does a better and more efficient job than private insurers anyway.


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