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Gun-Crazy Right Wing Howls for Bob Costas to Be Fired

We’re armed to the teeth, people
US News • Views: 23,336

The entire right wing is freaking out in unison again about Bob Costas’s remarks during Sunday Night Football, and demanding that he be fired.

I know I’m just one guy with a blog, but I’m going to stand up and say that Costas and Jason Whitlock (whose column Costas quotes) are absolutely right. This is a conversation America needs to have.

The gun lobby in this country puts out an enormous amount of propaganda, but take a look at this infographic to understand the real scale of the problem:

Click to enlarge

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808 comments

1 bratwurst  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 5:54:44pm

Not only are there too many guns in this country, we are also cursed with idiots who seem to believe there is not problem with gun violence that can't be solved with MORE GUNS:

2 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 5:54:49pm

There is no reason to fire Bob Costas. He was not insulting, racist or hate baiting. He is simply right to lament the tragedy and wrong to blame the gun.

At an upcoming gun safety class we may well take a few minutes to discuss what is wrong with the NFL. How violent sports may cause violence as we see at football games and even baseball games from time to time.

Might contact sports like fighting sports and football encourage our culture of violence? Perhaps.

3 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 5:56:47pm

It's interesting that these so called defenders of the 2nd Amendment have no respect for the 1st Amendment.

4 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 5:57:41pm

Whitlock: After Belcher Tragic Murder-Suicide, Why Are Chiefs Playing?

Our current gun culture simply ensures that more and more domestic disputes will end in the ultimate tragedy, and that more convenience-store confrontations over loud music coming from a car will leave more teenage boys bloodied and dead.

In the coming days, Belcher's actions will be analyzed through the lens of concussions and head injuries. Who knows? Maybe brain damage triggered his violent overreaction to a fight with his girlfriend. What I believe is, if he didn't possess/own a gun, he and Kasandra Perkins would both be alive today.

I agree with this. The easy availability of lethal weapons unquestionably played a part in this crime, as it does in many, many crimes in this country.

5 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 5:58:37pm

America has 90 guns for every 100 people.

That's nuts.

6 Renaissance_Man  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:00:27pm

His words were a passing criticism against the most sacred religion in this country.

Sadly, something as mild as that is an unforgivable offence.

7 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:01:05pm

I'd like to note that nowhere in that passage did Costas say anything about gun control. Whitlock talks about gun culture and handgun possession and does mention the second amendment, but Costas seems to emphasize the cultural aspect, rather than the legal one.

8 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:01:12pm

Those who would have us not be allowed to have guns need to answer a simple question. What then are we permitted to have as law abiding people in a place populated by violent predators? People who use violence as a way to rape, steal money and valuables.

9 Skip Intro  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:02:09pm

re: #1 bratwurst

Not only are there too many guns in this country, we are also cursed with idiots who seem to believe there is not problem with gun violence that can't be solved with MORE GUNS:

[Embedded content]

Everybody who has reached the age of reason - say 12 years old - ought to be required to buy at least one gun, and have it loaded and with them at all times. That way, the next time they hear a loud noise or feel threatened they can just start shooting at the first thing they see. We'll all be safer this way.

I'm just wondering who will be the first GOP congress member to sponsor this NRA dream bill.

10 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:02:45pm

re: #5 Charles Johnson

America has 90 guns for every 100 people.

That's nuts.

11 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:03:30pm

re: #8 Political Atheist

Those who would have us not be allowed to have guns need to answer a simple question. What then are we permitted to have as law abiding people in a place populated by violent predators? People who use violence as a way to rape, steal money and valuables.

Strawman.

12 allegro  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:04:27pm

re: #8 Political Atheist

Those who would have us not be allowed to have guns need to answer a simple question. What then are we permitted to have as law abiding people in a place populated by violent predators? People who use violence as a way to rape, steal money and valuables.

Could we at least go 3 or 10 fucking posts before trying to justify our national fetish for guns?

13 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:05:05pm

The onus is on the gun lobby to explain why 90 guns for every 100 people is not enough.
And why that hasn't lead us to having one of the highest murder rates in the world.

14 researchok  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:06:36pm

re: #3 Gus

Exactly.

I have no issue with responsible gun rights.

I do have a issue with people who beieve gun rights trample or supersede every other right.

They do not.

15 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:07:07pm

re: #2 Political Atheist

There is no reason to fire Bob Costas. He was not insulting, racist or hate baiting. He is simply right to lament the tragedy and wrong to blame the gun.

At an upcoming gun safety class we may well take a few minutes to discuss what is wrong with the NFL. How violent sports may cause violence as we see at football games and even baseball games from time to time.

Might contact sports like fighting sports and football encourage our culture of violence? Perhaps.

Don't blame the gun, blame the football?

I think not.

16 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:07:11pm
17 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:07:12pm

According to NRA propaganda, we should be the safest place on the planet.
Yet, we aren't.

18 kirkspencer  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:07:21pm

One of the questions that never seems to get asked: What does it take to be willing to shoot someone? Recall that there are a lot of studies showing that a large proportion of soldiers in combat don't shoot at the enemy.

So let's assume for a moment that Kasandra Perkins had been carrying a pistol. Assume she wasn't surprised but realized Belcher had a weapon and intended to shoot her. Assume she had time to draw. (Anybody else noticing how many assumptions we have to use to get to this point?) What are the odds she's actually have shot him first, shot accurately enough to kill him so swiftly he couldn't shoot back?

Low. Even driven by fear a very large number of people freeze. (And when driven by fear or hate or other strong emotion a lot of people who do manage to shoot spray instead of aiming resulting in more misses.)

I am saddened by how many allegedly realist gun owners don't think this through. How the gun becomes a magic wand that makes everything right - or could, if only everyone had one and carried all the time.

19 Skip Intro  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:08:17pm

re: #17 Varek Raith

According to NRA propaganda, we should be the safest place on the planet.
Yet, we aren't.

That's because there are only 90 guns for every 100 people. We need to double that, at the least. Otherwise we're just sitting ducks.

20 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:08:19pm

re: #11 Varek Raith

Strawman.

Is it really though? I mean if this situation was to be affected by gun control, it would have to involve an outright ban on handguns.

I'm not a big fan of guns, but I don't know how you use gun control to meaningfully affect this tragedy.

21 efuseakay  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:08:20pm

These nut bags should boycott the NFL and refuse to watch/go to any games. Please????!!!!!!

22 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:08:36pm

re: #15 wrenchwench

The point is blame the predilection for violence. Was that not clear? Really?

23 Renaissance_Man  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:09:45pm

re: #8 Political Atheist

Those who would have us not be allowed to have guns need to answer a simple question. What then are we permitted to have as law abiding people in a place populated by violent predators? People who use violence as a way to rape, steal money and valuables.

When the US becomes such a place, perhaps this question will have more merit.

Until then, people can use the same thing they use in other First World countries - their voices, their legs, their communication devices, and the protection of laws and law enforcement. And, in extremis, whatever is at hand. Is it ideal? No. But the reality is that the free availability of firearms and their protected legal and cultural status causes far more deaths, injuries, and misery than they prevent. Unless you count the entertainment value of fantasising about ordinary citizens engaging in gun battles, which I realise is a favourite American pastime, but not one that has significant societal benefit.

Yes, I realise that removing firearms from US culture is impossible. Appropriate gun restrictions without a simultaneous effort at removing illegal firearms from circulation will have a deleterious effect, and such a concerted effort will never happen in this country. And so those who live here must simply accept a certain amount of completely unnecessary violence, injury and death as a 'tax', as it were, part of the price of living here.

24 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:11:00pm

re: #2 Political Atheist

There is no reason to fire Bob Costas. He was not insulting, racist or hate baiting. He is simply right to lament the tragedy and wrong to blame the gun.

At an upcoming gun safety class we may well take a few minutes to discuss what is wrong with the NFL. How violent sports may cause violence as we see at football games and even baseball games from time to time.

Might contact sports like fighting sports and football encourage our culture of violence? Perhaps.

There's also the issue of steroids, American machismo, cultural problems, etc. There was also a murder suicide this week with a bow and arrow. These things happen, I'm not convinced this is a gun control issue.

25 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:11:09pm

re: #17 Varek Raith

According to NRA propaganda, we should be the safest place on the planet.

Yet, we aren't.

Yep, we're almost at 100% gun ownership in America. One gun for every person.

But we still have one of the highest murder rates in the world.

If the premise that more guns make us safer were really valid, shouldn't we see some evidence of it?

It's a real head-scratcher.

26 Stanghazi  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:11:44pm

re: #22 Political Atheist

The point is blame the predilection for violence. Was that not clear? Really?

Plenty, plenty, plenty of non football people use guns to kill to settle the argument.

It's not the game.

27 Amory Blaine  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:11:59pm

re: #1 bratwurst

Not only are there too many guns in this country, we are also cursed with idiots who seem to believe there is not problem with gun violence that can't be solved with MORE GUNS:

[Embedded content]

If my wife pulled out a gun and shot me, I don't think I could shoot her even if I was armed as well. The idea repulses me. How can this so called man of god pretend that if we are all armed that we could, at a moments notice, kill the ones we love. Some christian.

28 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:12:04pm

re: #18 kirkspencer

One of the questions that never seems to get asked: What does it take to be willing to shoot someone? Recall that there are a lot of studies showing that a large proportion of soldiers in combat don't shoot at the enemy.

So let's assume for a moment that Kasandra Perkins had been carrying a pistol. Assume she wasn't surprised but realized Belcher had a weapon and intended to shoot her. Assume she had time to draw. (Anybody else noticing how many assumptions we have to use to get to this point?) What are the odds she's actually have shot him first, shot accurately enough to kill him so swiftly he couldn't shoot back?

Low. Even driven by fear a very large number of people freeze. (And when driven by fear or hate or other strong emotion a lot of people who do manage to shoot spray instead of aiming resulting in more misses.)

I am saddened by how many allegedly realist gun owners don't think this through. How the gun becomes a magic wand that makes everything right - or could, if only everyone had one and carried all the time.

re: #18 kirkspencer

QFT

29 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:12:04pm

Since this is going to be the gun control pie fight thread....
Photo appears to show Zimmerman bleeding after Trayvon Martin killing

30 dragonfire1981  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:12:18pm

re: #1 bratwurst

Not only are there too many guns in this country, we are also cursed with idiots who seem to believe there is not problem with gun violence that can't be solved with MORE GUNS:

[Embedded content]

There are over 550 million firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is: How do we arm the other 11?

From Lord of War starring Nicholas Cage (great underrated film IMO)

And another one, from the man trying to bring the Cage character to justice:

Do you know why I do what I do? I mean, there are more prestigeous assignments. Keeping track of nuclear arsenels - you'd think that more critical to world security. But it's not. No, nine out of ten war victims today are killed with assault rifles and small arms - like yours. Those nuclear weapons sit in their silos. Your AK-47, that's the real weapon of mass destruction.

31 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:12:36pm

re: #22 Political Atheist

The point is blame the predilection for violence. Was that not clear? Really?

Really.

The point is, a predilection for violence + a football = a game.

A predilection for violence + a gun = somebody dead.

Unless you're saying football causes the predilection for violence. That I would also disagree with.

There's a violent culture, and there's a gun culture. Football hurts a lot of people. Guns kill a lot of people.

32 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:13:12pm

re: #11 Varek Raith

Right. Nobody ever called for the guns to be gone.
///

33 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:14:10pm

re: #25 Charles Johnson

Yep, we're almost at 100% gun ownership in America. One gun for every person.

Percentage of US gun owners and households with guns. A lot of guns but they're in the hands of a minority of the population.

34 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:14:56pm

re: #25 Charles Johnson

Yep, we're almost at 100% gun ownership in America. One gun for every person.

But we still have one of the highest murder rates in the world.

If the premise that more guns make us safer were really valid, shouldn't we see some evidence of it?

It's a real head-scratcher.

I think Finland has the second highest ownership rate in the world, and a very low murder rate. The story isn't simple...

35 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:14:58pm

re: #32 Political Atheist

Right. Nobody ever called for the guns to be gone.
///

You are dodging the discussion.
How is 90 guns for every 100 people not enough.
Why, even though the gun lobby claims more guns equals less crime, do we have one of the highest murder rates in the world.
How many guns will be enough?

36 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:15:08pm

re: #12 allegro

Could we at least go 3 or 10 fucking posts before trying to justify our national fetish for guns?

My paragraph actually justifies a fetish for guns? Ummm NO. I justify responsible ownership and use. Calm down.

37 bratwurst  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:15:15pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

There was also a murder suicide this week with a bow and arrow. These things happen, I'm not convinced this is a gun control issue.

And comparing the ratio of murder/suicides committed via bow and arrow to those committed by gun won't do anything to alleviate your concerns about this, I am sure.

38 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:15:24pm

re: #33 goddamnedfrank

Percentage of US gun owners and households with guns. A lot of guns but they're in the hands of a minority of the population.

Right, that 90% is not evenly distributed. There are a lot of paranoid weirdos hoarding a LOT of guns in America.

What could go wrong?

39 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:15:40pm

Gun Culture

By age 18 an American child will have seen 16,000 simulated murders and 200,000 acts of violence.

40 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:16:02pm

re: #34 uncah91

I think Finland has the second highest ownership rate in the world, and a very low murder rate. The story isn't simple...

The also don't have an insane group like the NRA espousing bullshit on guns.
They also don't have a fetish for them.
Or delusions of grandeur.
Americans do.

41 Skip Intro  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:16:44pm

re: #38 Charles Johnson

Right, that 90% is not evenly distributed. There are a lot of paranoid weirdos hoarding a LOT of guns in America.

What could go wrong?

And those same weirdos are the ones who keep buying more guns every time and election doesn't go their way.

42 sauceruney  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:16:49pm

They're just mad because they can't shoot him.

43 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:17:02pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

Since this is going to be the gun control pie fight thread....
Photo appears to show Zimmerman bleeding after Trayvon Martin killing

Ergo, everyone in high school that ever got punched in the nose should have murdered their assailant.

44 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:17:17pm

re: #36 Political Atheist

My paragraph actually justifies a fetish for guns? Ummm NO. I justify responsible ownership and use. Calm down.

How are you going to make sure only responsible people own guns? Serious question. This is what gun control is about, not banning them.

45 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:17:24pm

My house alarm system is almost completely installed. Possibly the best $1,000 bucks I've spent in a very long time. The cats make a lot of noise at night scratching on boxes and chasing pistachios across the floor. I've become used to sleeping through the racket but I no longer have to worry if there's a burglar dance party in the living room or a cat working out frustrations on cardboard. I think I'm going to make the additional investment to have the backyard professionally wired with motion sensors.

46 dragonfire1981  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:18:06pm

I have a somewhat interesting view considering my life path.

I grew up in Canada where of course hand guns are banned. I only saw guns in movies/TV shows or knew of them as weapons commonly used by violent criminals. In short, I grew up with the mentality that guns are dangerous and not every single person should be walking around with one.

Coming to America (to the South no less) my considerably Liberal views on guns were...not well received. I have since softened. I own two weapons now, a handgun and a rifle. I enjoy target shooting.

But the part that's most important to me about gun ownership? I TAKE GUNS SERIOUSLY.

I am ridiculously anal about treating a gun as loaded at all times, double or triple checking for an empty barrel after I am done shooting, properly storing ammo and weapons in safe places and restricting access to them. These are not toys, they are not tools, they are weapons and need to be treated with a good measure of respect.

I think it should be law that ANYONE who wants to buy a gun be REQUIRED to take a safety class.

I also think laws need to be tightened so that's easier to keep guns away from people with criminal records, mental illnesses, etc.

I fully support the 2nd amendment, but we need to be realistic about things.

47 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:18:19pm

re: #43 Gus

Ergo, everyone in high school that ever got punched in the nose should have murdered their assailant.

Don't feed the troll(ing behavior)

48 dragonfire1981  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:19:09pm

Personally I never felt constantly unsafe and vulnerable not having a gun in Canada. I kept a pocket knife handy, but I never felt shorthanded because I wasn't packing heat.

49 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:19:23pm

Welcome to Amercia, Home of the Mass Shooting.

50 palomino  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:20:00pm

The American right tends to simply write off gun violence as a problem of "irresponsible assholes" and hardened criminals. But we have the highest murder rate among developed nations--by far. And the weapons used in most homicides are firearms. And this sad state of affairs has been relatively constant for decades.

Sure, you can kill someone just as dead with a hammer, but that requires closer proximity, more time and effort, greater strength, etc. When was the last time you heard of someone going on a "successful" killing spree using a hammer, a hatchet, an ax or a saw?

Canada, Japan, France, UK, Spain, Germany, Italy, etc. The US murder rate is 4-6 times higher than each of those countries. Should we thus conclude that America just has 4-6 times as many assholes as those nations, and then be done with it? Of course not, but Americans, particularly on the right, are quite insular and generally averse to examining (much less actually adopting) policies held by sissy European cheese eaters.

51 dragonfire1981  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:20:06pm

re: #38 Charles Johnson

Right, that 90% is not evenly distributed. There are a lot of paranoid weirdos hoarding a LOT of guns in America.

What could go wrong?

How much do you think people would freak out if government tried to place a limit on the number of weapons that could be owned by an individual?

52 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:20:38pm

re: #44 wrenchwench

How are you going to make sure only responsible people own guns? Serious question. This is what gun control is about, not banning them.

Wrench, think about how what you are saying would have affected this tragedy. It couldn't have. This football player wouldn't have been denied the right to own a handgun under any reasonable controls outside of outright banning.

53 Amory Blaine  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:21:18pm

Yeah I imagine killing someone with a machete is more personal than a 38.

54 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:22:38pm

Violence against women.

55 dragonfire1981  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:22:41pm

re: #50 palomino

The American right tends to simply write off gun violence as a problem of "irresponsible assholes" and hardened criminals. But we have the highest murder rate among developed nations--by far. And the weapons used in most homicides are firearms. And this sad state of affairs has been relatively constant for decades.

You can thank the gun lobby for that. Laws keeping guns out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill should be tough and strictly enforced.

I think part of the problem is it's too easy. Practically anyone can obtain a firearm and start shooting without any training (safety or otherwise) required.

I also in part blame movies and TV for both depicting guns unrealistically and making them appear less dangerous than they actually are.

56 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:22:50pm

re: #40 Varek Raith

The also don't have an insane group like the NRA espousing bullshit on guns.
They also don't have a fetish for them.
Or delusions of grandeur.
Americans do.

I'd argue that the place to start looking would be the homogenous population of Finland and heterogenous population of America.

Edit: typo

57 EiMitch  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:23:09pm

My general opinion of gun ownership and legal controls:

Should all gun sales require background checks? - I think so, on the caveat that we establish an infrastructure specializing in helping individuals when selling guns to one another. A network for police departments would suffice, since guns registrations and associated permits go through them anyways. And yes, gun and ammunition sales on the internet need to be checked out as well.

Should there be restrictions on what kinds of guns can be privately owned? - Yes. But thats already established. No changes needed in this regard.

Should there be a limit to the number of guns somebody owns? - Yes. I'd make exceptions for collectors, dealers, and shooting-range rentals.

Now when I say collectors, I mean to distinguish them from stockpilers. The difference being that collectors have all different kinds of guns, like they want their next of kin to open a museum or something. Whereas stockpilers seem to be preparing to equip a small army. And yes, of course more stringent permits and checks should exist in this regard to help distinguish between the two.

58 allegro  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:23:20pm

re: #36 Political Atheist

My paragraph actually justifies a fetish for guns? Ummm NO. I justify responsible ownership and use. Calm down.

Um, YES. The second post was doing exactly that with it wasn't the gun it was the football. Then immediately followed with "but self defense!" This wasn't a euphamistic "tragedy" - it was murder/suicide by an out of control, unstable guy with a loaded gun readily available. It isn't about self defense but you are in such a rush to defend your passions for guns that you try to turn the conversation to that to divert it. And fuck your patronizing "calm down" bullshit.

59 jaunte  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:24:29pm

Background checks aren't required for the private sale of firearms; the NRA wants to keep it that way. So any criminal, up to and including terrorists, finds it easy to arm themselves here.

60 dragonfire1981  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:24:43pm

re: #57 EiMitch

My general opinion of gun ownership and legal controls:

Should there be restrictions on what kinds of guns can be privately owned? - Yes. But thats already established. No changes needed in this regard.

Should there be a limit to the number of guns somebody owns? - Yes. I'd make exceptions for collectors, dealers, and shooting-range rentals.

I thought about that when writing my previous post, but slippery slope IMO:

"Don't worry officer, that giant cache of assault weapons in my garage? It's just my collection."

61 dragonfire1981  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:25:14pm

re: #59 jaunte

Background checks aren't required for the private sale of firearms; the NRA wants to keep it that way. So any criminal, up to and including terrorists, finds it easy to arm themselves here.

So the vaunted "Gun show loophole" still exists? I thought they tightened up on that after Columbine?

62 bratwurst  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:25:39pm

re: #56 uncah91

I'd argue that the place to start looking would by the homogenous population of Finland and heterogenous population of America.

Check out the insane speech by the late Charlton Heston that Charles posted last night in the Twitchy thread...sounds like it would be right up your alley.

63 EiMitch  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:26:01pm

re: #60 dragonfire1981

I thought about that when writing my previous post, but slippery slope IMO:

"Don't worry officer, that giant cache of assault weapons in my garage? It's just my collection."

Didn't you read the rest of my post? I thought of that too.

64 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:26:39pm

Jason Whitlock is one of the most respected sports writers in America.
Costas quoted him. What the fuck is the problem here?

65 jaunte  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:26:52pm

re: #61 dragonfire1981
Currently "in committee."

H.R.591
Latest Title: Gun Show Loophole Closing Act of 2011
Sponsor: Rep McCarthy, Carolyn [NY-4] (introduced 2/9/2011)
[Link: thomas.loc.gov...]

Also:
S.35
Latest Title: Gun Show Background Check Act of 2011
Sponsor: Sen Lautenberg, Frank R. [NJ] (introduced 1/25/2011)
[Link: thomas.loc.gov...]

66 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:27:28pm

This football player almost assuredly purchased this gun legally with a background check already. One gun was enough to commit this crime.

67 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:28:23pm

re: #65 jaunte

Currently "in committee."

13 years later. Progress!

68 jaunte  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:28:27pm

Sometimes you have to start solving a problem by doing something that won't solve the whole problem.

69 Stanghazi  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:29:24pm

re: #54 Gus

Violence against women.

I've tweeted some articles, but ABL just tweeted this one. Harsh and scary as hell

70 Stanghazi  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:29:54pm

re: #64 A Man for all Seasons

Jason Whitlock is one of the most respected sports writers in America.
Costas quoted him. What the fuck is the problem here?

Exactly.

71 Petero1818  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:30:12pm

Interesting study of the difference in death rate and gun ownership between US and Canada. The title says all you need to know but the evidence seems pretty clear to me.
[Link: guncontrol.ca...]

72 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:31:08pm

re: #62 bratwurst

Check out the insane speech by the late Charlton Heston that Charles posted last night in the Twitchy thread...sounds like it would be right up your alley.

Ummm, I'm not sure what the insane speech was, but tribalism, racism, othering, etc. all contribute to a culture that is violent. Look at Northern Ireland for fuck's sake.

73 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:31:29pm

re: #38 Charles Johnson

Right, that 90% is not evenly distributed. There are a lot of paranoid weirdos hoarding a LOT of guns in America.

What could go wrong?

I have a lot of guns, more than the average gun owner even. Most of them were inherited. I don't consider myself or my grandfathers to be paranoid weirdos, just people who grew up in an environment where hunting and target shooting was a big part of the culture.

Which isn't to say that there aren't a lot of paranoid weirdos, there are of course. It should be harder to purchase guns too.

re: #56 uncah91

I'd argue that the place to start looking would by the homogenous population of Finland and heterogenous population of America.

Yeah, that's bullshit. The majority of violent crimes everywhere involve a victim and perpetrator of the same ethnicity. The difference is much more likely explained by poverty, education, and how each culture views the role of government.

It's the same when people use homogeneity to explain why universal healthcare works there but can't work here, the idea that people are intrinsically racist and only give a shit about society if almost everyone in it looks like them.

74 Petero1818  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:32:49pm

re: #48 dragonfire1981

Personally I never felt constantly unsafe and vulnerable not having a gun in Canada. I kept a pocket knife handy, but I never felt shorthanded because I wasn't packing heat.

I have lived in Canada my whole life. In each of Canada's three largest cities. In the midst of the cities. I have never carried a weapon gun or knife nor do I know anyone who does or has. Granted I accept that those in less affluent neighbourhoods than I lived in might, but I think the numbers are pretty slim.

75 Amory Blaine  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:33:31pm

Here is a project of a gun made with a 3D printer.

76 EiMitch  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:34:39pm

re: #66 uncah91

This football player almost assuredly purchased this gun legally with a background check already. One gun was enough to commit this crime.

So was this premeditated or an act of passion? Either way, without the gun he would've found another weapon to commit the deed. OJ Simpson didn't need a gun. Wait, what am I saying? He was innocent! /sarc

In all seriousness, we can't prevent murder with gun controls or gun bans. What can be done is to limit the scope of the harm caused by psychos. In other words, we can reduce the body counts of mass shootings by deny access to the tools that make high body counts possible. But individual murders, especially murder/suicides, can't be prevented with anything short of "Minority Report" style predictions.

77 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:35:42pm

re: #68 jaunte

Sometimes you have to start solving a problem by doing something that won't solve the whole problem.

I agree. But ask yourself how 20% of the population can have a stranglehold on the national dialog? The fact is that a lot of non gun owners have been persuaded recently to view the right to ownership as more important than control. More and more guns are being sold to fewer and fewer people yet politically the national firearms lobby has never been stronger.

78 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:36:01pm

re: #58 allegro

I'm sorry you misunderstood "calm down". I meant to ask for a less emotional discussion. If you are not interested fine. But I'm just not going to flame the thread or you with f bombs.

The topic is calling for Bob to be fired and the sheer number of guns. Not the tragedy itself. My passion for guns is a passion for being allowed to defend ourselves. If you don't like that I can live with it.

79 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:38:00pm

re: #76 EiMitch

So was this premeditated or an act of passion? Either way, without the gun he would've found another weapon to commit the deed. OJ Simpson didn't need a gun. Wait, what am I saying? He was innocent! /sarc

In all seriousness, we can't prevent murder with gun controls or gun bans. What can be done is to limit the scope of the harm caused by psychos. In other words, we can reduce the body counts of mass shootings by deny access to the tools that make high body counts possible. But individual murders, especially murder/suicides, can't be prevented with anything short of "Minority Report" style predictions.

Or another scenario: he didn't have a gun at his moment of extreme rage, and couldn't use it to kill the mother of his child, and everyone was still alive.

80 jaunte  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:38:20pm

re: #77 goddamnedfrank

The manufacturer's lobby has taken over the conversation, by way of the NRA and ALEC.

81 Petero1818  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:38:20pm

re: #76 EiMitch

So was this premeditated or an act of passion? Either way, without the gun he would've found another weapon to commit the deed. OJ Simpson didn't need a gun. Wait, what am I saying? He was innocent! /sarc

In all seriousness, we can't prevent murder with gun controls or gun bans. What can be done is to limit the scope of the harm caused by psychos. In other words, we can reduce the body counts of mass shootings by deny access to the tools that make high body counts possible. But individual murders, especially murder/suicides, can't be prevented with anything short of "Minority Report" style predictions.

You cannot prevent SOME murders with gun control, but you can most certainly prevent others and reduce the rate of homicide and accidental deaths. It is too easy to pull a trigger. Actually beating someone to death or stabbing them to death requires more effort and therefore there is more opportunity to stop oneself or to be stopped by someone else including the victim. Crimes of passion are also often crimes of opportunity.

82 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:39:07pm

re: #73 goddamnedfrank

Yeah, that's bullshit. The majority of violent crimes everywhere involve a victim and perpetrator of the same ethnicity. The difference is much more likely explained by poverty, education, and how each culture views the roll of government.

You don't think poverty in the U.S. and ethnicity don't have some pretty firm linkages?

83 dragonfire1981  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:39:24pm

re: #63 EiMitch

Didn't you read the rest of my post? I thought of that too.

I see that now. My fault.

84 kirkspencer  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:39:53pm

I would love to see a comprehensive study of shooters - homicide and suicide both. One that looks for a full slate of economic, sociological, and psychological factors.

Follow that with a comprehensive study of gun owners on the same slate of factors. And finally a comprehensive study of non-gun owners.

Now cross-correlate for factors in shooters that are not in (or uncommon to) non-gun owners, with a further correlation for factors that are less common to uncommon in gun owners who haven't shot someone.

With that data in hand begin the process of determining laws and procedures to reduce shootings.

Won't fly, of course. The NRA will convince all gun owners that the end result will be a total gun ban. But it would be nice to work from data instead of biased mythology on both sides of the gun control divide.

85 SidewaysQuark  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:40:37pm

I don't see the problem with responsible gun ownership, and I'm not really keen on seeing that right taken away from anyone who demonstrates responsibility in their ownership of such weapons.

86 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:41:36pm

We are a country that grows up watching murders on television. We are country that glorifies war and readily blows of "collateral damage." We are a country that laughs in a movie theater when a character is decapitated or riddled with bullets. We are a country that watches music video that fetishizes gun in the cities. We are a country that creates and plays video games in which we severely beat, maim and murder electronic characters on our computer screens. We are a country that sees death as means of attaining foreign policy goal and death as a means of settling our personal grievances. We are a country that thinks the dead go on living for eternity after they have been murdered or killed.

87 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:42:27pm

I come from a family of long-time non-gun owners. I don't own one. Neither did my father, or his father, and maybe not even my great-grandfather. And none of us had to serve in combat. So, maybe that's why my first thought is not, "Oh, I feel threatened. Gotta buy a gun!"

That, I think, is what Costas was talking about. It's not just the fact that it's pitifully easy to buy firearms in the USA. It's the endemic feeling that we SHOULD have a gun nearby, never thinking twice about the unintended consequences of having one.

Hunting and target shooting are hobbies. I'm not knocking them. It's the compulsion to own one or more weapons for self-defense, and the legislation that allows law-abiding citizens to pack heat just so they can feel "safe."

88 Iwouldprefernotto  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:42:54pm

re: #3 Gus

It's interesting that these so called defenders of the 2nd Amendment have no respect for the 1st Amendment.

I hate it when someone posts something that is so simple and so true and makes me wish I had said it.

89 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:43:22pm

re: #76 EiMitch

So was this premeditated or an act of passion? Either way, without the gun he would've found another weapon to commit the deed.

I think it's pretty clear he regretted the act very quickly, maybe immediately. If he had not had a gun, or the gun was in a safe and had to be loaded, it might have given him the time he needed to come to his senses.

90 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:43:54pm

re: #79 Charles Johnson

Look that guy did not need a gun to kill. What a different discussion this would be if a knife or club had been used. Both are common enough in acts of domestic violence where guns are not there. Extreme rage killed Nicole Simpson.

Lets do our best to keep guns from predators and irresponsible people. And while we are at it lets address the heart of the violent impulse.

91 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:44:26pm

We can't even do a science fiction movie without killing people. It's all about killing. Even the comic book super hero trend. It's about killing people.

92 EiMitch  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:44:33pm

re: #84 kirkspencer

I would love to see a comprehensive study of shooters - homicide and suicide both. One that looks for a full slate of economic, sociological, and psychological factors.

Follow that with a comprehensive study of gun owners on the same slate of factors. And finally a comprehensive study of non-gun owners.

Now cross-correlate for factors in shooters that are not in (or uncommon to) non-gun owners, with a further correlation for factors that are less common to uncommon in gun owners who haven't shot someone.

With that data in hand begin the process of determining laws and procedures to reduce shootings.

IMO, this makes alot more sense than "just get rid of the damn things and he/she might not have been killed."

Won't fly, of course. The NRA will convince all gun owners that the end result will be a total gun ban. But it would be nice to work from data instead of biased mythology on both sides of the gun control divide.

Sadly, I agree with you on this part too.

93 BongCrodny  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:44:44pm

re: #19 Skip Intro

That's because there are only 90 guns for every 100 people. We need to double that, at the least. Otherwise we're just sitting ducks.

We need at least another 110 guns per 100 people.

We've got two hands, don't we?

94 Petero1818  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:44:45pm

re: #86 Gus

We are a country that grows up watching murders on television. We are country that glorifies war and readily blows of "collateral damage." We are a country that laughs in a movie theater when a character is decapitated or riddled with bullets. We are a country that watches music video that fetishizes gun in the cities. We are a country that creates and plays video games in which we severely beat, maim and murder electronic characters on our computer screens. We are a country that see death as means of attaining foreign policy goal and death as a means of settling our personal grievances. We are a country that thinks the dead go on living for eternity after they have been murdered or killed.

And yet, pretty much everything you said applies to Canada as well, yet our rate of violent death or accidental death is substantially lower that the US, and almost entirely because of lack of access to guns.

95 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:44:51pm

Without a gun, maybe he hit her, and maybe she went to a hospital and the police got called in and the relationship broke up, but they were all still alive.

Without a gun this might not have been a murder. With the gun, murder was almost inevitable.

It's absurd to pretend that having a tool dedicated to killing human beings right there, ready to use, has no bearing on crimes like this one.

96 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:45:59pm

re: #80 jaunte

The manufacturer's lobby has taken over the conversation, by way of the NRA and ALEC.

Exactly, but how?

The 90's Assault Weapons Ban accomplished almost nothing, because AW's never were used much in the commission of crimes. It was so unpopular that politically Democrats are still dealing with the blowback. Ask any police officer and they'll tell you that it would have been far better to go after ultra compact pistols. Ask any sociologist and they'll tell you that the AWB enforcement money would have been far better spent on public education and fighting poverty.

I'm of the opinion that if you raise the education level and deal with poverty then you'll be most of the way towards creating an environment conducive to discussing gun control.

97 dragonfire1981  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:46:57pm

Also notice our society tends to glorify gun wielding heroes, like the "brave" convenience store clerk who shoots back at a robber or the "courageous" bystander who starts shooting back at an armed gunman in a public place.

98 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:47:00pm

re: #96 goddamnedfrank

Exactly, but how?

The 90's Assault Weapons Ban accomplished almost nothing, because AW's never were used much in the commission of crimes. It was so unpopular that politically Democrats are still dealing with the blowback. Ask any police officer and they'll tell you that it would have been far better to go after ultra compact pistols. Ask any sociologist and they'll tell you that the AWB enforcement money would have been far better spent on public education and fighting poverty.

I'm of the opinion that if you raise the education level and deal with poverty then you'll be most of the way towards creating an environment conducive to discussing gun control.

This.

99 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:47:12pm

re: #94 Petero1818

And yet, pretty much everything you said applies to Canada as well, yet our rate of violent death or accidental death is substantially lower that the US, and almost entirely because of lack of access to guns.

Perhaps in the entertainment aspects but not with regards to warring and "collateral damage." Canada is more civilized in that respect.

100 Stanghazi  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:47:30pm
101 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:47:41pm

re: #95 Charles Johnson

Without a gun, maybe he hit her, and maybe she went to a hospital and the police got called in and the relationship broke up, but they were all still alive.

Without a gun this might not have been a murder. With the gun, murder was almost inevitable.

It's absurd to pretend that having a tool dedicated to killing human beings right there, ready to use, has no bearing on crimes like this one.

I agree that having a gun "right there ready to use" has an absolute bearing on the crime.

To say that owning a gun made this inevitable is hyperbole.

102 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:47:56pm

Social conditioning.

103 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:48:35pm

re: #101 uncah91

To say that owning a gun made this inevitable is hyperbole.

Good thing that's not what I said.

104 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:49:07pm

I guess the gun lobby is totally fine with the occasional mass shooting.
I need mah 30 round magazines, dammit!

105 EiMitch  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:49:12pm

re: #96 goddamnedfrank

I'm of the opinion that if you raise the education level and deal with poverty then you'll be most of the way towards creating an environment conducive to discussing gun control.

The irony is that there'd be far less need for gun control by that point.

re: #89 uncah91

I think it's pretty clear he regretted the act very quickly, maybe immediately. If he had not had a gun, or the gun was in a safe and had to be loaded, it might have given him the time he needed to come to his senses.

Unless, of course, he had planned on it being a murder/suicide in the first place.

106 Tigger2  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:49:18pm

re: #45 Killgore Trout

My house alarm system is almost completely installed. Possibly the best $1,000 bucks I've spent in a very long time. The cats make a lot of noise at night scratching on boxes and chasing pistachios across the floor. I've become used to sleeping through the racket but I no longer have to worry if there's a burglar dance party in the living room or a cat working out frustrations on cardboard. I think I'm going to make the additional investment to have the backyard professionally wired with motion sensors.

My house alarm didn't cost me anything at first she just wandered into my yard and never left, She weighs about 90lb and answers to the name Moe. now she cost me about 25 bucks a month in kibbles and bits.

107 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:50:19pm

Terrorists buying guns?
A-OK!
-NRA

108 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:51:56pm

But we must limit the right to vote!
Guns for everyone!

109 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:52:04pm

re: #103 Charles Johnson

Good thing that's not what I said.

There is a ton of domestic violence by gun owners that doesn't end up being murder, that is all I am saying.

But absolutely the gun culture and the availability of firearms, especially the pervasive ownership of handguns contributed to this.

110 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:52:23pm

As you can tell, my patience is wearing thin on this issue.
;)

111 Petero1818  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:52:47pm

re: #99 Gus

Perhaps in the entertainment aspects but not with regards to warring and "collateral damage." Canada is more civilized in that respect.

Again, it is easier to be civilized when you have no weapons. It applies in the Macro as well as the Micro. :)
The general homicide rate in Canada is well below that in the US, but mostly due to the large difference in the homicide rate by firearm. The non firearm homicide rate is not all that different.

112 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:54:03pm

re: #96 goddamnedfrank

Exactly, but how?

The 90's Assault Weapons Ban accomplished almost nothing, because AW's never were used much in the commission of crimes. It was so unpopular that politically Democrats are still dealing with the blowback. Ask any police officer and they'll tell you that it would have been far better to go after ultra compact pistols. Ask any sociologist and they'll tell you that the AWB enforcement money would have been far better spent on public education and fighting poverty.

I'm of the opinion that if you raise the education level and deal with poverty then you'll be most of the way towards creating an environment conducive to discussing gun control.

QFT

113 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:54:28pm

Until the gun lobby is no longer controlled by the insane NRA, I'm not going to listen to them.
Sorry, you buy into conspiracies about the UN taking your guns, well, yeah.

114 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:54:54pm
115 Tigger2  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:55:38pm

re: #113 Varek Raith

Until the gun lobby is no longer controlled by the insane NRA, I'm not going to listen to them.
Sorry, you buy into conspiracies about the UN taking you guns, well, yeah.

I dropped out of the NRA many yeas ago.

116 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:56:00pm

re: #114 Gus

[Embedded content]

117 kirkspencer  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:56:36pm

Just to add a bit more data to the mix,

Gallup's 2011 poll on the issue found that 47% of US adults say there is a gun in their household. So that number up above in Charles's original post, the one about almost 88 guns per 100 people? It's more a case of every gun owner has an average of two guns.

118 Petero1818  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:56:51pm

Guns don't kill people. People with guns kill people. People without guns for the most part get really pissed and flip you the bird or call your mama a whore.

119 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:57:02pm

re: #60 dragonfire1981

I thought about that when writing my previous post, but slippery slope IMO:

"Don't worry officer, that giant cache of assault weapons in my garage? It's just my collection."

I have a pretty large collection of guns. I have them by and large because I like them. The history and the technology connected with these objects is a fascinating study in and of itself. The workmanship on many guns, ancient and modern both, is superb. My favorite is a Ruger #1 rifle in .45/70">. This is a modern weapon, designed in the 1960s, but it uses basic technology that dates from the 1860s, the falling block action and the .45/70 cartridge. It is a beautiful artifact in and of itself. Its functioning and performance, projecting a solid metal object to a selected and distant point at supersonic speed, is a phenomenon of ingenuity. This is especially so when we consider the era in which this technology originated. It is also a test of skill to use it proficiently, since you only have one shot.
My other guns, like the M-1911 pistol, have powerful associations for anyone with an interest in recent history.
I have gone on at some length about this to illustrate that there are reasons other than fetishism or bloodlust for owning firearms.
Only a small percentage of gun owners see this the way I do though. Many of them have no idea what they are really dealing with, or how heavy the weight of history behind it. Still, a small percentage of gun owners can amount to a lot of people.
One way to protect enthusiasts like me would be to require a test of historical and technical knowledge as a condition of possessing a gun collection. This could be weighted toward a declared area of interest, with safety and basic proficiency always included of course.

120 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:57:12pm

re: #31 wrenchwench

Some argue that just watching violent sports and violent video games cause a desensitizing, a thinning of our collective reluctance to commit harm. Football players try to hurt each other. Rage is encouraged to exploit the adrenaline for the win. Enforcer squads etc.

It's up for debate. Cars kill a lot of people. Rarely deliberately. But we have this DUI fatality thing. It's huge. Tragic. Deadly. What do we do? We get after drunk drivers, not car ownership. We get after drinking and driving so we can punish and discourage this behavior. We get help for alcoholics.

We need to learn to help "rage a holics". Because you can take away the guns. But not all the rest of the things that kill. Cars. Clubs. Knives. Even bare hands.

121 EiMitch  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:58:19pm

re: #113 Varek Raith

Until the gun lobby is no longer controlled by the insane NRA, I'm not going to listen to them.
Sorry, you buy into conspiracies about the UN taking your guns, well, yeah.

The NRA didn't use to be so bat-s*** crazy many years ago. Then again, that could've just been my skewed perception.

122 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:58:41pm

re: #109 uncah91

There is a ton of domestic violence by gun owners that doesn't end up being murder, that is all I am saying.

But absolutely the gun culture and the availability of firearms, especially the pervasive ownership of handguns contributed to this.

That's because most domestic violence is intended to control rather than to exterminate.

A gun just an excellent tool to back up the "if you ever try and leave, I'll kill you" threat. Because it makes for more efficient killing.

123 Petero1818  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:00:13pm

re: #120 Political Atheist

Some argue that just watching violent sports and violent video games cause a desensitizing, a thinning of our collective reluctance to commit harm. Football players try to hurt each other. Rage is encouraged to exploit the adrenaline for the win. Enforcer squads etc.

It's up for debate. Cars kill a lot of people. Rarely deliberately. But we have this DUI fatality thing. It's huge. Tragic. Deadly. What do we do? We get after drunk drivers, not car ownership. We get after drinking and driving so we can punish and discourage this behavior. We get help for alcoholics.

We need to learn to help "rage a holics". Because you can take away the guns. But not all the rest of the things that kill. Cars. Clubs. Knives. Even bare hands.

Yes it is important to address rage issues in people. By all means. But the dangerous aspect of driving is a byproduct of the use of the car in a way in which it was not intended, or in some accidental manner. A gun, in being used precisely as it is intended to causes death.

124 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:00:27pm

To continue somebody's post further up the line who lived in Canada, I live in Center City Philadelphia, I don't carry a gun, and I don't fear for my life when I go outside.

125 jaunte  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:01:59pm

Here's A Timeline Of Mass Murders In The U.S. Just This Year
[Link: www.businessinsider.com...]

Can't find the list of mass clubbings or stabbings.

126 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:02:03pm

re: #117 kirkspencer

Just to add a bit more data to the mix,

Gallup's 2011 poll on the issue found that 47% of US adults say there is a gun in their household. So that number up above in Charles's original post, the one about almost 88 guns per 100 people? It's more a case of every gun owner has an average of two guns.

Based on my graph above it's 4.4 guns per owner. You're conflating households with owners. There are an average of 2.59 persons per household in the US.

127 Petero1818  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:02:36pm

re: #124 SteveMcG

To continue somebody's post further up the line who lived in Canada, I live in Center City Philadelphia, I don't carry a gun, and I don't fear for my life when I go outside.

I think that was me. I live in Toronto. To tell you the truth though I think you are nuts. If I lived in Philly I would arm myself to the teeth.////// :)

128 EiMitch  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:03:03pm

re: #120 Political Atheist

We need to learn to help "rage a holics". Because you can take away the guns. But not all the rest of the things that kill. Cars. Clubs. Knives. Even bare hands.

I agree, but many clearly don't. I'm convinced we'd do much more good by focusing on solving sociological problems that lead to crime. Random nuts killing people are unpredictable, and IMO blown out of proportion. I'm in favor of gun control, but I see a limit to how much good it can do.

129 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:04:14pm

re: #123 Petero1818

Yes it is important to address rage issues in people. By all means. But the dangerous aspect of driving is a byproduct of the use of the car in a way in which it was not intended, or in some accidental manner. A gun, in being used precisely as it is intended to causes death.

The intended use of every one of my guns is to put holes in paper. Should it ever be necessary, yes, one of those guns might someday aim at a predator in my hands.

But so far we have literally thousands of rounds used as intended. Enough to wear out several guns. Not A Scratch for anyone at all.

130 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:05:35pm

School to prison pipeline. Highest incarceration rate in the world. Massive "collusion between attorneys, district attorneys, cops. Cops shooting wood carvers. The prison-industrial-complex. Court TV. Free brochure.

131 TedStriker  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:05:45pm

re: #3 Gus

It's interesting that these so called defenders of the 2nd Amendment have no respect for the 1st Amendment.

Because they feel that the 2nd Amendment trumps the 1st, especially when they're the ones with the gun in their hand.

132 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:06:22pm

Prescription drug abuse.

133 jaunte  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:06:47pm

re: #130 Gus

Follow the money.

134 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:07:02pm

re: #123 Petero1818

Yes it is important to address rage issues in people. By all means. But the dangerous aspect of driving is a byproduct of the use of the car in a way in which it was not intended, or in some accidental manner. A gun, in being used precisely as it is intended to causes death.

There are guns for different uses. Many of them aren't intended to kill people, some of them are only intended to kill targets.

But again, only an outright ban on handguns would likely have affected this tragedy. I personally wouldn't mind that, but pretending otherwise is short-sighted , IMHO.

135 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:07:22pm

re: #133 jaunte

Follow the money.

Lawyers, guns and money.

136 Petero1818  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:07:38pm

re: #129 Political Atheist

The intended use of every one of my guns is to put holes in paper. Should it ever be necessary, yes, one of those guns might someday aim at a predator in my hands.

But so far we have literally thousands of rounds used as intended. Enough to wear out several guns. Not A Scratch for anyone at all.

Actually no. Your gun was created for the expressed purpose of blowing a hole in something. Whether it be a body, a can, or a piece of paper. The fact that you aim to shoot at paper is merely how you choose to employ it. I simply do not see a need for people to own a product whose expressed purpose is to blow a whole in something violently. But that is just me.

137 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:07:48pm

Alcohol.

138 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:08:38pm

re: #125 jaunte

Here's A Timeline Of Mass Murders In The U.S. Just This Year
[Link: www.businessinsider.com...]

Can't find the list of mass clubbings or stabbings.

In the u.s.? No. Elsewhere, yes. For example China had a mass killing of school children by knife earlier this year, iiirc.

139 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:10:06pm

As far as I see it, a gun is more likely to kill a loved one than protect a loved one.

140 Petero1818  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:10:24pm

re: #134 uncah91

There are guns for different uses. Many of them aren't intended to kill people, some of them are only intended to kill targets.

But again, only an outright ban on handguns would likely have affected this tragedy. I personally wouldn't mind that, but pretending otherwise is short-sighted , IMHO.

To be honest I have no idea whether a complete firearms ban would have stopped this. He was an NFL player and could have snapped this girls neck like a twig if he really wanted to.
But, on the average, no handguns means fewer deaths. It is not debatable. It is easily proven.

141 kirkspencer  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:10:27pm

re: #138 uncah91

In the u.s.? No. Elsewhere, yes. For example China had a mass killing of school children by knife earlier this year, iiirc.

So just for an idle (//) question, how many mass murders around the world do you suppose have been by knife compared to those by gun?

142 jaunte  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:10:28pm

re: #138 uncah91

China: population 1,347,350,000
U.S. 314,873,000

And yet we're still winning.

143 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:10:36pm

Ah, I just saw this on Wikipedia, sited from CBS.com:

NASA's Curiosity rover is detected several simple carbon-based organic compounds on Mars, but it remains unclear whether they were formed via Earthly contamination or whether they contain only elements indigenous to the planet.

144 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:10:46pm

Yo, Charles:

145 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:12:50pm

re: #142 jaunte

China: population 1,347,350,000
U.S. 314,873,000

And yet we're still winning.

More murders?

146 Kaessa  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:13:40pm

I am a gun owner as well, I grew up with them learning to shoot and hunt.

One of the things I would definitely like to see put in place is mandatory gun safety courses before you're allowed to own a firearm. ANY firearm. A huge amount of the firearm deaths in this country are accidental, because some nimrod didn't proper secure their gun.

The added benefit to this is more people properly store their guns in safes or with trigger locks, and store them unloaded. Crimes of passion are less likely to happen if you have to take the time to unlock the safe and load the gun. More time to cool down.

I have mixed feelings about guns. I love to own them and shoot them, but I realize what a danger they are to so many people when they're in the wrong hands. If we spend some time educating people (as well as taking care of corollary problems like poverty), maybe this wouldn't happen as often.

147 Kaessa  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:15:01pm

Random randomness: I love the auto-hyphenate feature.

148 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:16:01pm

re: #141 kirkspencer

So just for an idle (//) question, how many mass murders around the world do you suppose have been by knife compared to those by gun?

Worldwide? More by Firearm, but many by various melee weapons.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

149 bratwurst  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:16:28pm

re: #129 Political Atheist

The intended use of every one of my guns is to put holes in paper. Should it ever be necessary, yes, one of those guns might someday aim at a predator in my hands.

But so far we have literally thousands of rounds used as intended. Enough to wear out several guns. Not A Scratch for anyone at all.

I am not worried about you owning as many guns as you want. If you could figure out a way to insure that at least a bare majority of gun owners were as knowledgeable and conscientious as you, there would not be much of a problem at all. Greater regulation is not going to accomplish that overnight (if at all), but I am convinced it should be tried as part of the equation.

150 kirkspencer  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:16:58pm

Taking it sideways... what I'd like to see is a heavy push for everyone in the US to own a taser -- and work hard on that technology to make it likely people actually carry the darn thing.

Tasers are a lot less likely to kill someone by mistake. (Not impossible, plenty of torture and abuse out there. Just a lot less likely.) Because of this aspect people are a lot more likely to actually pull the darn trigger. I'm not sure it's possible to commit suicide by taser, not without some weapon mod to get more juice or making it two-part (shoot yourself so you fall facedown in the tub of water, for example).

It is not a perfect solution. See parenthetical about lots of torture and abuse in the preceding paragraph. But I think it might well neutralize the protection argument.

151 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:16:59pm

re: #138 uncah91

In the u.s.? No. Elsewhere, yes. For example China had a mass killing of school children by knife earlier this year, iiirc.

A "mass killing?" Eight kids were killed and five were injured. And these incidents happen very infrequently, less frequently than someone getting shot in the USA.

152 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:17:01pm

We need more social workers.

153 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:17:47pm

re: #143 ProGunLiberal

We either found something on Mars, or we brought it with Curiosity. Either way, whatever is up there now, it's gonna stay.

154 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:18:04pm

We shouldn't set policy goals to be better than China. Or not. We should set policy goals for ourselves. For America.

155 jaunte  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:18:17pm

re: #152 Gus

And emotional intelligence training.

156 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:19:54pm

re: #155 jaunte

And emotional intelligence training.

Morals.

157 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:20:16pm

Hey, look what came out of the Trailer Park.

Romney-supporting Kid Rock to President Obama: 'No hard feelings'

158 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:20:39pm

re: #151 wheat-dogghazi

A "mass killing?" Eight kids were killed and five were injured. And these incidents happen very infrequently, less frequently than someone getting shot in the USA.

Yes, that is a mass killing. Aurora had "only" twelve people die.

And I was responding specifically to someone bringing up mass killings. I'm not comparing that act in China to every U.S. gun death.

159 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:21:28pm

re: #146 Kaessa

I am a gun owner as well, I grew up with them learning to shoot and hunt.

One of the things I would definitely like to see put in place is mandatory gun safety courses before you're allowed to own a firearm. ANY firearm. A huge amount of the firearm deaths in this country are accidental, because some nimrod didn't proper secure their gun.

The added benefit to this is more people properly store their guns in safes or with trigger locks, and store them unloaded. Crimes of passion are less likely to happen if you have to take the time to unlock the safe and load the gun. More time to cool down.

I have mixed feelings about guns. I love to own them and shoot them, but I realize what a danger they are to so many people when they're in the wrong hands. If we spend some time educating people (as well as taking care of corollary problems like poverty), maybe this wouldn't happen as often.

Sometimes I forget that most gun owners have little or no formal instruction in gun safety, marksmanship, legal and moral aspects, and all the other types of knowledge we would automatically require of anyone who wanted any other kind of dangerous device. Want to fly a plane? It's potentially extremely dangerous and not just to you. The FAA requires extensive proof you know what you are doing. The usual drivers license test is inadequate but it is vastly more than the nothing we require for gun ownership. Want to set up as a welder? The state thinks that too is dangerous and it therefore requires a test. Most people learn to shoot from friends or parents, and their skills and knowledge are in proportion to those of their ad hoc teachers.

160 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:21:32pm

re: #158 uncah91

Yes, that is a mass killing. Aurora had "only" twelve people die.

And I was responding specifically to someone bringing up mass killings. I'm not comparing that act in China to every U.S. gun death.

So, does Canada have these mass killings multiple times a year?
We do.

161 jvic  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:21:46pm

1. To speak purely as an atomic individual---an individual who is instinctively suspicious at the words "We need to..."---my inclination is that it's none of the State's business how I choose to defend my life, and how or if I choose to end it.

My attitude wrt the first might change if I, or someone close to me, was threatened or harmed with a gun. My attitude wrt the second might change if I, or someone close to me, was threatened or subjected to involuntary euthanasia.

To date neither has happened.

Note that I've articulated an attitude and and inclination, not a considered opinion.

2. Re Kaessa #146 et al:

Unfortunately we have a take-no-prisoners political culture, not just wrt gun control. Activists who call for common-sense _____ and piously disavow the existence of a slippery slope may well be planning their next push down it.

162 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:22:56pm

Crime in the United States - Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia

The US homicide rate, which has declined substantially since 1991 from a rate per 100,000 persons of 9.8 to 4.8 in 2010, is still among the highest in the industrialized world.

Shouldn't all those guns be preventing this?

163 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:23:04pm

re: #123 Petero1818

Yes it is important to address rage issues in people. By all means. But the dangerous aspect of driving is a byproduct of the use of the car in a way in which it was not intended, or in some accidental manner. A gun, in being used precisely as it is intended to causes death.

The flaw in your logic is the alleged connection between a manufacturers intent and the users intent. I don't see it.

164 philosophus invidius  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:23:50pm

re: #141 kirkspencer

So just for an idle (//) question, how many mass murders around the world do you suppose have been by knife compared to those by gun?

Of course you can kill people with a knife--or even with your bare hands. But that's not how you get 450+ murders in Chicago this year already.

165 kirkspencer  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:25:14pm

re: #158 uncah91

Yes, that is a mass killing. Aurora had "only" twelve people die.

And I was responding specifically to someone bringing up mass killings. I'm not comparing that act in China to every U.S. gun death.

Yes, but you're acting as though it's balanced. You pointed out there were "many" mass killings around the world that used other weapons (though noting most were done by shooting). A look at the full lists for each continent, not just the top 15 of your first link, shows that "many" appears to be less than 10% -- assuming we leave the US out of the numbers.

An exception is just that. Just because sometimes it's Z does not change the fact it is usually X -- and action to reduce X has a much better return.

166 dragonath  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:25:16pm

re: #34 uncah91

I think Finland has the second highest ownership rate in the world, and a very low murder rate. The story isn't simple...

Vermont is like this too. Howard Dean, in particular, is very much a "gun-rights" kind of guy.

re: #96 goddamnedfrank

I'm of the opinion that if you raise the education level and deal with poverty then you'll be most of the way towards creating an environment conducive to discussing gun control.

I think this is the key. Unfortunately, what stands in between is a gun lobby that has become so politicized that even the idea of dealing with these issues is anathema.

167 jaunte  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:25:44pm

It's a public health issue.

"If you really want to understand the issue of benefits and costs of firearms, you have to know what's happening with suicides," says David Hemenway, director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center. What's happening is this: Suicide is the eighth leading cause of death in the U.S., and more Americans commit suicide using guns than with all other means combined. On average, 50 people kill themselves with guns every day.
....
...there appears to be a connection between gun availibility and risk of suicide, especially among youth. A number of studies, including several in the New England Journal of Medicine, have confirmed this link. According to the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), "people living in households in which guns are kept have a risk of suicide that is five times greater than people living in households without guns."
[Link: prospect.org...]

168 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:26:56pm

Gun Politics in Finland - Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia

In Finland there are 32 privately owned firearms per 100 civilians according to the Finnish Ministry of the Interior.

Not even close to the US.

169 Kaessa  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:27:22pm

re: #159 Shiplord Kirel

Sometimes I forget that most gun owners have little or no formal instruction in gun safety, marksmanship, legal and moral aspects, and all the other types of knowledge we would automatically require of anyone who wanted any other kind of dangerous device. Want to fly a plane? It's potentially extremely dangerous and not just to you. The FAA requires extensive proof you know what you are doing. The usual drivers license test is inadequate but it is vastly more than the nothing we require for gun ownership. Want to set up as a welder? The state thinks that too is dangerous and it therefore requires a test. Most people learn to shoot from friends or parents, and their skills and knowledge are in proportion to those of their ad hoc teachers.

This is one of the things that boggles my mind about the gun culture in this country. Everyone I know that uses a firearm has had training, in addition to being taught gun safety from an early age (Colorado, we hunt here). I can't imagine someone owning a gun when they have no clue about gun safety, proper storage, or have had zero training. I had limited training in the military, but I had already had TONS of training when I was growing up. My dad was absolutely militant about gun and range safety. So many people don't even have a clue.

170 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:27:54pm

Finland's gun laws are incredibly restrictive compared to the US as well.

171 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:28:33pm

re: #168 Charles Johnson

Gun Politics in Finland - Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia

Not even close to the US.

We iz gun crazy!™

Check out #10 and #16.

172 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:30:34pm

re: #1 bratwurst

Not only are there too many guns in this country, we are also cursed with idiots who seem to believe there is not problem with gun violence that can't be solved with MORE GUNS:

[Embedded content]

And she would have had a few more alternatives for protection if HE didn't have a gun.

173 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:31:10pm

re: #162 Charles Johnson

Crime in the United States - Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia

Shouldn't all those guns be preventing this?

Hasn't gun ownership been going up as the murder rate has come down?

Not that I think the gun ownership caused the decrease, I'm just saying, again, that the relationship between guns and homicide is complex.

If I was going to guess something that made sense to me, it would be that guns would have to be severely restricted nationwide, and all the guns currently owned would have to come out circulation before you started to see a positive affect.

I'm not sure we can get that done in the US, so I'd like us to concentrate on all of the other things we could do to affect violence.

174 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:31:23pm

This is rather irritating.
All I'm hearing from the gun lobby is to just shut up and maintain the status quo.

175 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:31:47pm

re: #158 uncah91

Sorry, when I see "mass killing," I'm thinking larger numbers than 8 or 12. I guess the media have co-opted the phrase to describe "multiple shootings" or "multiple homicides." Mass killing to me is wiping out entire villages or neighborhoods. It's hard to do that with a knife.

This was a school attack, of which there have been several since 2010. According to Wikipedia, in 2010 and 2011, these knife attacks left "at least 21 dead and some 90 injured." That's out of a population of 1.3 billion. These were random, uncoordinated attacks by disturbed perps. The one you mention was by a teenage who was upset after his girl dumped him.

I suggest the body count could have been higher if the kid had had access to a gun.

If you are not comparing it to every US gun death, why bring it up? What's your point?

176 jaunte  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:33:46pm

"Herman Cain, Ted Nugent and Michelle Malkin were among a wave of conservatives who sacked NBC broadcaster Bob Costas on Twitter on Monday":
[Link: www.politico.com...]

177 dragonath  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:33:50pm

Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993

PRINCETON, NJ -- Forty-seven percent of American adults currently report that they have a gun in their home or elsewhere on their property. This is up from 41% a year ago and is the highest Gallup has recorded since 1993, albeit marginally above the 44% and 45% highs seen during that period.

And here's an article about the rate of gun ownership in Finland:

According to the Finnish government, the country has 1.6 million registered weapons and 650,000 people with firearm permits. That means about 12 percent of the population owns a weapon of some kind. More than half the permits are for hunting, which is usually done with rifles and shotguns. The rest of the permits are for target practice, which can involve handguns. The student in Wednesday's shooting was a member of the Helsinki Shooting Club, which has 1,500 members. (Other sources cite different gun-ownership rates for Finland; one study (PDF) estimated 41 to 69 privately owned firearms for every 100 civilians.)

Hunting is closely regulated by the Finnish government. A would-be hunter must pass a written test on game biology, legislation, and management before he can purchase a hunting permit. You also must pass a rifle-shooting test and a background check before you can obtain a firearm license. A hunter must also be licensed for the number and type of animals he plans to kill. (The most popular targets include moose, ducks, geese, bears, foxes, and hares.) Teenagers who are at least 15 but younger than 18 can apply for a firearm license as long as they have parental permission. This week's school shooter received his license a few weeks ago.

Finland is more gun-friendly than some other European nations. In September, the country resisted an EU proposal to raise the legal age for arms possession to 18, arguing that restricting hunting for the young would result in "highly emotional and strong reactions in Finland against the EU as a whole." Aside from hunting, guns are also part of Finland's strong military tradition. Young men in Finland tend to be familiar with firearms since almost all of them join the army for compulsory service at some point.

While Finns have a reputation for violence, firearms almost never enter the picture. Finland does have the highest murder rate in Western Europe, but those cases—commonly related to alcohol or domestic abuse—often involve knives rather than guns.

178 bratwurst  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:34:32pm

re: #176 jaunte

"Herman Cain, Ted Nugent and Michelle Malkin were among a wave of conservatives who sacked NBC broadcaster Bob Costas on Twitter on Monday":
[Link: www.politico.com...]

Wow, three fucking idiots who crave attention...would would have guessed they would be leading this charge?

179 jaunte  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:34:59pm

re: #178 bratwurst

Nugent's in there somewhere, too.

180 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:35:12pm

re: #177 dragonath

I wonder if the murder rate is higher during the winter months. Cabin fever and all. Any stats on that?

181 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:36:23pm

re: #3 Gus

It's interesting that these so called defenders of the 2nd Amendment have no respect for the 1st Amendment.

They are defenders of PART of the 2nd. The "well regulated" part gets thrown away every time.

182 jaunte  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:36:24pm

re: #179 jaunte

Nugent's in there somewhere, too.

Sorry, I meant Loesch.

183 McSpiff  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:36:41pm

As much as I agree with gun control, I need to post a story that I have a small personal connection to. I grew up with the murderer. He had a reputation for beating his girlfriends, and assulting others in general. No one was surprised when he finally killed someone:

'Cruel monster' sent to prison

A central Alberta man who bludgeoned his girlfriend to death will spend 16 years in prison before he can be eligible for parole, a judge decided Friday.

Teagan Klein was found dead in her duplex in Red Deer, Alta., on Feb. 4, 2009.

Brett Jones, 20, admitted last December that he killed Klein, 23, with a garden tool, and locked her young son in the basement. In exchange for a guilty plea, his charge was reduced from first- to second-degree murder.

...

He didn't need a gun at all. I suspect given in this case that the killer was a professional athlete that he wouldn't have either. Maybe he wouldnt have killed her that day, but I suspect he would have some day. I could be imposing my bias here though.

184 jaunte  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:37:08pm

re: #181 Eventual Carrion

The "well regulated" part gets thrown away every time.

Slippery slope!

185 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:37:59pm

Imagine the right wing reaction if the Obama administration tried to pass gun laws like Finland's: Gun Politics in Finland.

The ownership and use of firearms is regulated by the Firearms Act of 1998.

Firearms can only be obtained with an acquisition license, which can be applied for at the local police for a fee. A separate license is required for each individual firearm. The number of firearms a person can own is not limited in any way. With the primary licensee's consent, parallel licenses to his firearms can be granted to other persons. According to law, the firearms must be stored in a locked space or otherwise locked, or with vital parts removed and separated. Even then the weapon or any of its separated parts must not be easily stolen. If more than 5 pistols, revolvers or self-loading rifles or other-type firearms are being stored, they must be stored in a certified gun safe or in a secure space inspected and approved by the local police authority.

They may be carried only when they are transported from their place of storage to the place of use (shooting range, hunting area or such). Even then they must be unloaded and concealed or kept in carrying pouches. Aside from law enforcement agents and military personnel, only security guards with closely defined working conditions, special training and a permit are allowed to carry a loaded gun in public places. The ownership of air-rifles is not regulated but carrying or firing them in public places is not permitted. A crossbow is paralleled to an air rifle in legal matters.

To obtain a firearms license, an individual must declare a valid reason to own a gun (self defense is not considered "valid"). Acceptable reasons include hunting, sports or hobby shooting, profession related, show or promotion or exhibition, collection or museum, souvenir, and signalling. The applicant must provide evidence supporting the acquisition license application to prove that he or she is actually using firearms for the stated purpose(s). Such proof may consist of written declarations from other license holders as referees, shooting diaries or certificates from a shooting club.[6]

The applicant is also subjected to an extensive background check from police accessible databases and even citations for speeding or drunk driving can be grounds of not granting the license.

Collectors can have special licenses for firearms otherwise not permitted (e.g. pocket guns or automatic rifles). These are usually issued based on the collector's previous record of gun ownership, but ultimately the issuing of licenses is at the local police's discretion.

Conversely, a license for a pistol or a rifle is relatively easy to obtain, although the police usually require that the first gun is suitable for a beginner (usually a gun chambered in .22LR or single shot shotgun).

Possession of destructive devices such as automatic weapons, Explosive Ordnance, breech loading cannons, artillery or missile systems is generally not permitted. The Finnish Ministry of the Interior has discretion to license such devices to collectors, for motion picture production or exhibition use.

The firearms certificate may be cancelled if a person has committed any crimes (in addition to violent crimes, simple theft and traffic offences are also considered) or has broken certificate rules. Physical and mental problems or reckless behavior are solid grounds for cancelling the certificate.

Possessing a firearm without a license is a punishable offence. Unlicensed firearms may be confiscated by the police without punishment under a gun amnesty law, provided this happens under the individual's own initiative. Firearms surrendered in this manner are auctioned to the public or destroyed. It is also possible for the owner to get a license for the gun.

186 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:38:09pm

re: #181 Eventual Carrion

They are defenders of PART of the 2nd. The "well regulated" part gets thrown away every time.

They also ignore the militia aspect. All gun owners should belong to a militia according to the 2nd Amendment.

187 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:39:39pm

re: #185 Charles Johnson

To me, this all seems very reasonable.

188 dragonath  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:40:45pm

re: #180 wheat-dogghazi

I wonder if the murder rate is higher during the winter months. Cabin fever and all. Any stats on that?

Yeah, there is, but the data is different than you might think.

The seasonal pattern of homicide in Finland did not change intrinsically during 1957-95, although the amplitude of the seasonal variation decreased significantly. In comparisons of different time periods, peak incidences occurred mainly during summer and troughs during winter.

189 McSpiff  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:41:16pm

re: #186 Gus

They also ignore the militia aspect. All gun owners should belong to a militia according to the 2nd Amendment.

That reading was rejected by the SOTUS in McDonald v. Chicago if im not mistaken

190 Petero1818  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:42:48pm

re: #183 McSpiff

As much as I agree with gun control, I need to post a story that I have a small personal connection to. I grew up with the murderer. He had a reputation for beating his girlfriends, and assulting others in general. No one was surprised when he finally killed someone:

'Cruel monster' sent to prison

He didn't need a gun at all. I suspect given in this case that the killer was a professional athlete that he wouldn't have either. Maybe he wouldnt have killed her that day, but I suspect he would have some day. I could be imposing my bias here though.

I just don't buy that argument. There are no indications right now that the NFL player had any history whatsoever of any violence. In fact, I have heard nothing but shock from those that new him or of him. We have no idea what may have led to this or caused this man to snap as he did.
By the way are you still in that part of AB. I do some work around Red Deer every now and then.

191 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:42:57pm

re: #188 dragonath

Well, that's not what I suspected would be the case.

192 McSpiff  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:44:15pm

re: #190 Petero1818

I just don't buy that argument. There are no indications right now that the NFL player had any history whatsoever of any violence. In fact, I have heard nothing but shock from those that new him or of him. We have no idea what may have led to this or caused this man to snap as he did.
By the way are you still in that part of AB. I do some work around Red Deer every now and then.

Fair enough, I have no strong evidence for my side at all. And I'm pretty biased about the whole thing. I'm actually in Ottawa now.

193 dragonath  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:44:24pm

I saw this too:

Finnish literature is full of examples of violent loners. The national epic, "Kalevala," a major source of inspiration for generations of artists and musicians including composer Jean Sibelius, has knife and ax-wielding men bent on revenge and murder as some of its central heroes.

"Finland has been a top violent country for hundreds of years," said Matti Laine at the Prison Personnel Planning Center. "Overall crime figures are falling slightly, but violent crime is on the increase."

About 2,600 inmates are in Finnish prisons at any one time, and 600 of them are incarcerated for murder or manslaughter. In all, about 920 have been convicted of violent crimes, which is a high percentage by international standards, Laine said.

Yeah, we might laugh at the idea of literate axe-wielding Finns, but there's probably something to all those "knife" murders, as silly as it sounds.

194 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:44:26pm

re: #189 McSpiff

That reading was rejected by the SOTUS in McDonald v. Chicago if im not mistaken

So much for originalism. //

195 jaunte  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:44:52pm

re: #194 Gus

5-4 split: [Link: www.cga.ct.gov...]

196 philosophus invidius  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:45:00pm

re: #173 uncah91

Hasn't gun ownership been going up as the murder rate has come down?

Not that I think the gun ownership caused the decrease, I'm just saying, again, that the relationship between guns and homicide is complex.

If I was going to guess something that made sense to me, it would be that guns would have to be severely restricted nationwide, and all the guns currently owned would have to come out circulation before you started to see a positive affect.

I'm not sure we can get that done in the US, so I'd like us to concentrate on all of the other things we could do to affect violence.

Since it is too late to restrict, we should proliferate? That makes no sense to me. If this guy didn't have a gun, there would be two fewer dead people today and one fewer child growing up without parents.

197 Petero1818  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:45:25pm

re: #192 McSpiff

Lucky for you. Ottawa is better than Red Deer. People are nice there (other than that dude) but it is cold as shit and rather boring.

198 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:46:57pm

re: #195 jaunte

5-4 split: [Link: www.cga.ct.gov...]

We should probably amend that into a requirement. :D

199 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:47:05pm

re: #193 dragonath

They also have an unusually big suicide rate. Heard it might be some Finno-Urgic thing.

And, you are correct. Finland has a reputation for violence. Though, I don't think they have the history of brutality and sadism that Norway can have.

200 TedStriker  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:49:14pm

re: #5 Charles Johnson

America has 90 guns for every 100 people.

That's nuts.

On its face, that sort of statistic would make it seem like almost everyone in this country has a gun, when we know that's not the case. Many gun owners have more than one (especially hunters and collectors; they may own at least one rifle, maybe a shotgun or two, and possibly a handgun for personal protection or work) and I would say that most gun owners are responsible (I would put you in that category, Charles, since I know that you've said that you own(ed) a Mossberg shotgun for protection).

I wished there were a way to make firearms safety training compulsory before owning any kind of gun in a way that would pass constitutional muster, because lack of safety with and lack of respect for guns is most of what causes accidental gun deaths. Above that, I don't know what could be done to avert what Jovan Belcher did (since he was someone who didn't get in trouble with the law and he was someone that, before Saturday, was a good guy who played by society's rules), short of banning entire classes of guns (such as handguns) from private purchase or ownership in the US.

This stuff's complicated and I don't pretend to know the answers, but there needs to be a serious conversation in this country about guns and gun ownership, because those who want a gun are going to get one, legal or not, safety trained or not, in their right mind or not.

201 kirkspencer  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:50:19pm

re: #199 ProGunLiberal

They also have an unusually big suicide rate. Heard it might be some Finno-Urgic thing.

And, you are correct. Finland has a reputation for violence. Though, I don't think they have the history of brutality and sadism that Norway can have.

Finland has the highest homicide rate of western europe.

Finland's murder rate is (depending on source) 15% to 20% that of the US.

But it's the finns who have a reputation for violence.

202 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:50:52pm

re: #175 wheat-dogghazi

Sorry, when I see "mass killing," I'm thinking larger numbers than 8 or 12. I guess the media have co-opted the phrase to describe "multiple shootings" or "multiple homicides." Mass killing to me is wiping out entire villages or neighborhoods. It's hard to do that with a knife.

This was a school attack, of which there have been several since 2010. According to Wikipedia, in 2010 and 2011, these knife attacks left "at least 21 dead and some 90 injured." That's out of a population of 1.3 billion. These were random, uncoordinated attacks by disturbed perps. The one you mention was by a teenage who was upset after his girl dumped him.

I suggest the body count could have been higher if the kid had had access to a gun.

If you are not comparing it to every US gun death, why bring it up? What's your point?

I didn't bring up mass killings. Jaunte did. He posted a link to a list of recent mass killings in the US and implied there weren't any by knife or club.

And as to high body counts, look at Rwanda. A huge chunk of that killing was done by machete.

Here is a list of murder rate by country:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

And here is a list of guns per capita by country:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Note the absence of single factor correlation.

203 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:51:48pm

re: #201 kirkspencer

They also are fucking tough.

They are the only nation to have fought off both the USSR and Nazi Germany.

204 palomino  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:53:05pm

Well, maybe this is the incident that Obama will finally use as a pretext to take all our guns away./

Seriously, though, one of the things that most turns me off about this debate is the absolutist, no compromise rhetoric of America's leading pro-gun voices.

Wayne LaPierre and the others who run the NRA don't believe there is such a thing as a sensible gun regulation; these are paranoid fanatics who fear the feds are always one step away from repealing the 2nd Amendment. And they dominate the discourse to the point that most Republicans, and some Dems as well, are terrified politically of them. Only a few other right wing institutions (eg, Limbaugh) can instill more fear in a Republican up for re-election.

205 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:53:09pm
206 dragonath  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:54:34pm

I wonder if there's a study on the effectiveness of strict "law-and-order" methods versus the crime rate.

It's worth noting that the Harper government in Canada has gone in this direction, while scrapping some of their gun regulations. I don't know why they'd want to emulate us, but that's Conservatives for you.

207 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:55:19pm

re: #202 uncah91

I didn't bring up mass killings. Jaunte did. He posted a link to a list of recent mass killings in the US and implied there weren't any by knife or club.

That is simply false. jaunte did no such thing.

208 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:55:44pm

re: #139 SteveMcG

As far as I see it, a gun is more likely to kill a loved one than protect a loved one.

Dear God..Is this what it has come too? a gun is more likely to kill a loved one than protect a loved one.

209 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:56:08pm

re: #202 uncah91

Are you seriously trying to argue that guns are no more lethal than knives or machetes?

210 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:56:37pm

See and Americans really won't care about that. Pfft. 4,000 dead plus over 100K civilians? Where' my cheeseburger and Coke?

211 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:56:44pm

re: #202 uncah91

OK, my mistake. As for the stats, yes, there is no single-factor correlation evident there. But, we're comparing apples and oranges here. The USA is not in the middle of a civil war, or overrun by warlords. Neither is Finland. So, how do the numbers look if we throw out places in East Africa and countries like Afghanistan?

212 philosophus invidius  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:56:47pm

re: #202 uncah91

States with the greatest number of guns in the home also have the highest rates of homicide, a new study finds.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
(OK, from 2007)

213 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:57:29pm

re: #125 jaunte

Here's A Timeline Of Mass Murders In The U.S. Just This Year
[Link: www.businessinsider.com...]

Can't find the list of mass clubbings or stabbings.

ummm?

214 kirkspencer  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:58:57pm

re: #207 Charles Johnson

That is simply false. jaunte did no such thing.

regretfully, see re: #125 jaunte.

215 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:59:36pm

re: #213 uncah91

ummm?

How is that implying that no murders are committed by clubbings or stabbings?

He said he couldn't find any statistics on it. You're reading something into it that isn't there.

216 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 7:59:44pm

re: #189 McSpiff

That reading was rejected by the SOTUS in McDonald v. Chicago if im not mistaken

Well we all know they aren't always correct. Look at Roe v Wade.

/half

217 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:00:51pm

re: #214 kirkspencer

regretfully, see re: #125 jaunte.

In every single mass murder listed on the page he linked, the weapon was a gun, or several guns.

Please feel free to link to a study of mass murders committed with clubs or knives. I'd like to see that.

218 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:01:46pm

re: #209 Charles Johnson

Are you seriously trying to argue that guns are no more lethal than knives or machetes?

Most certainly not. If you look at my posts on this thread you will see I have argued that if the player didn't have a gun, or even if the gun was unloaded in a gun safe, we probably aren't having this conversation.

And my initial post simply tried to make the point that this is not a single factor issue. I'm not arguing that guns aren't more deadly.

219 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:03:09pm

re: #218 uncah91

Then what is the point of mentioning Rwanda, if you're not trying to say that knives or machetes are equally lethal?

220 jaunte  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:03:41pm

Ah, here's something:
Image: Screen_Shot_2012-12-03_at_10.00.39_PM.png

From a pdf: "Homicide trends in the United States". Bureau of Justice Statistics.
(#61 in the footnotes here: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

221 Petero1818  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:04:12pm

re: #211 wheat-dogghazi

OK, my mistake. As for the stats, yes, there is no single-factor correlation evident there. But, we're comparing apples and oranges here. The USA is not in the middle of a civil war, or overrun by warlords. Neither is Finland. So, how do the numbers look if we throw out places in East Africa and countries like Afghanistan?

Get more specific. Take the country that is culturally most like the US and compare it. Canada. We are essentially descendants of the same people, similar immigration histories. We share media, culture, music, sports, we are military allies (of differing strengths). This is the closest comparable you will find to the US, with the fewest variables. The truth is quite obvious when you look at it.
[Link: guncontrol.ca...]

222 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:04:34pm

re: #217 Charles Johnson

In every single mass murder listed on the page he linked, the weapon was a gun, or several guns.

Please feel free to link to a study of mass murders committed with clubs or knives. I'd like to see that.

I already did.

But here it is again:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

223 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:05:01pm

Because, you know, the irrefutable fact is that almost all mass murders in America are committed with guns.

224 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:05:06pm

re: #186 Gus

They also ignore the militia aspect. All gun owners should belong to a militia according to the 2nd Amendment.

As I've noted before, according to The Militia Act of 1903 (32 Stat. 775), all male gun owners are, in fact, members of the militia. Only those women who are officers in the National Guard are consider to be in the Militia. But we could go further back to the example of the Militia Acts of 1792 and require all members of the militia to own the same firearm that the standing army uses and report for training twice a year.

225 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:05:43pm

re: #220 jaunte

Ah, here's something:
Image: Screen_Shot_2012-12-03_at_10.00.39_PM.png

From a pdf: "Homicide trends in the United States". Bureau of Justice Statistics.
(#61 in the footnotes here: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Yes ... but Rwanda!

226 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:06:52pm
227 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:07:17pm

re: #226 Gus

[Embedded content]

Rwandghazi!

228 Petero1818  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:07:18pm

re: #225 Charles Johnson

Yes ... but Rwanda!

Perhaps we could put it this way. It is certainly possible to commit mass murder with a club or a knife. It is infinitely easier to commit mass murder with a gun.

229 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:08:04pm

Daily SHow is on fire

230 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:08:13pm

re: #227 Varek Raith

Rwandghazi!

Boom!

231 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:08:15pm

re: #215 Charles Johnson

How is that implying that no murders are committed by clubbings or stabbings?

He said he couldn't find any statistics on it. You're reading something into it that isn't there.

I read his reference to clubbings and stabbings as sarc without the /.

If someone is going to mass murder in the us, they are going to use a gun (or something really big, like OK city)

232 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:08:49pm

Geez, imagine the death toll in Rwanda if the majority of the killers had guns....

233 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:09:23pm

I'll just point out that the "Rwanda machete" dodge has been a big part of NRA propaganda for many years.

234 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:10:00pm

re: #233 Charles Johnson

I'll just point out that the "Rwanda machete" dodge has been a big part of NRA propaganda for many years.

Shocka!

235 kirkspencer  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:10:28pm

re: #217 Charles Johnson

In every single mass murder listed on the page he linked, the weapon was a gun, or several guns.

Please feel free to link to a study of mass murders committed with clubs or knives. I'd like to see that.

Sorry, Charles, but I think you just changed what was said. Frustrating because I'm pretty much on the same side of the large argument.

But in this case that's the point. Jaunte posted that list of gun killings, and "Can't find the list of mass clubbings or stabbings." That is, indeed, an implication that there were nonesuch. In that alone, Uncah91 is correct - he did find a handful of mass killings that used other weapons.

Where uncah91 fails is his implication that the clubbings and knifings are significant in quantity in comparison to the shooting mass murders. As I stated up-thread when he threw that out and linked to a wikipedia page, at best 10% of the total lists are other-than-firearm.

Better control of firearms would have a drastically better reduction of killings - mass killings and suicides - that better control of all other mechanisms for killing combined. Doesn't mean there aren't others, just that concentrating on splinters while ignoring planks is stupid.

236 SteveMcG  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:10:42pm

"Santa's balls exploded", "Christmas is so big it's eating other holidays", [Bill O'Reilly] "just gave an atheist somethinbg else he doesn't believe."

237 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:10:54pm

Amazing how #226 goes unnoticed for the most part. While we were typing another man shot his former wife in this case. Murdered.

238 Petero1818  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:11:25pm

re: #233 Charles Johnson

I'll just point out that the "Rwanda machete" dodge has been a big part of NRA propaganda for many years.

Must be the prevalence of American Exceptionalism amongst the Rwandans that causes the NRA to compare them to the US.

239 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:12:16pm

re: #231 uncah91

You are a prime example of why we can't have a rational debate about guns in this country.
Kudos.

240 Four More Tears  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:12:29pm

re: #229 SteveMcG

Daily SHow is on fire

BillO's trying to argue that Christianity is a philosophy and not a religion? Was he high???

241 dragonath  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:12:51pm

I don't think it should be much of a surprise that crime rates went down after Clinton came into office. I mean, look at Reagan's policies.

242 freetoken  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:13:02pm

I'm trying to remember the last time I saw a machete in this country, must less touched one.

For some reason it strikes me that the "machete" argument just doesn't apply to this country.

243 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:13:40pm

Kaboom!

244 jaunte  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:14:01pm

re: #237 Gus

Graham said the couple had been divorced for years and offered no rationale for the shooting. Police wouldn’t discuss a motive, except to say it didn’t appear the couple’s divorce was related to the shooting. The Potter County prothonotary’s office shows the couple filed for divorce in April 2010 and it was granted that August.

Spooky.

245 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:14:24pm

re: #240 Four More Tears

BillO's trying to argue that Christianity is a philosophy and not a religion? Was he high???

Then neither is Islam.

*Heads asplode*

246 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:15:00pm

re: #237 Gus

Amazing how #226 goes unnoticed for the most part. While we were typing another man shot his former wife in this case. Murdered.

Probably because he couldn't find his machete.

247 Petero1818  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:16:39pm

re: #242 freetoken

I'm trying to remember the last time I saw a machete in this country, must less touched one.

For some reason it strikes me that the "machete" argument just doesn't apply to this country.

My son was obsessed with Machetes after watching a coconut vendor in Hawaii open a couple of coconuts for us to drink from. For about 2 years (btw 3-5 yrs of age) he walked around saying he was going to chop people with a machete. It was pretty funny actually. Especially when he said it to absolute strangers. Thankfully he grew out of it.

248 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:17:07pm

re: #246 Charles Johnson

Probably because he couldn't find his machete.

Houston, we've got a problem. And they intend to ignore it. I say no. It's time we confront this. America has a serious gun crime problem. In 100 years 3 million people will die.

249 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:17:10pm

re: #239 Varek Raith

You are a prime example of why we can't have a rational debate about guns in this country.
Kudos.

Wow.

Look back on ALL my posts in this thread.

I'm saying I'd be in favor of a handgun ban, if we could actually get that done.

250 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:17:19pm

re: #245 Varek Raith

Than neither is Islam.

*Heads asplode*

No, no, no.

Islam isn't a religion, therefore we get to discriminate against it more.

Christianity isn't a religion, therefore we get to criticize it less because the 1st Amendment doesn't apply.

Logic.

251 dragonath  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:18:40pm

I wonder how many people out there feel like Falling Down is a documentary.

252 jvic  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:18:54pm

re: #231 uncah91

If someone is going to mass murder in the us, they are going to use a gun (or something really big, like OK city)

Guns and explosives are sooo 20th century.

For mass murder, bioweapons could be the coming thing.

If/when weaponizable biotech becomes readily obtainable, the implications may well be far worse, far more unavoidable, than they are for guns.

253 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:19:47pm

In 100 years all of Chicago will have been shot. Murdered.

254 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:20:11pm

re: #240 Four More Tears

BillO's trying to argue that Christianity is a philosophy and not a religion? Was he high???

He's been at it for a while. This is from 2004:

I think you're takin' it too seriously. You have a predominantly Christian nation. You have a federal holiday based on the philosopher Jesus.

Edited for wingnut.

255 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:20:13pm

But don't hurt my feelings about owning a gun.

256 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:20:21pm

re: #249 uncah91

Please.
A lot of your posts have been red herrings and unrelated tangents.

257 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:20:42pm

I recently had a serious WTF moment during a conversation that involved two of my hobbies, guns and scale model airplanes. My wingnut neighbor had commented that I was the only grownup he knew who built model planes. I responded that it was not a popular adult hobby here in the weeds, but it was in other parts of the country. I also mentioned that it was a great deal more popular in Europe and Japan than it is here, which is why their manufacturers tend to be dominant. He expressed surprise at this, "considering how socialistic and pacifist they are, and their hostility to gun rights. I mean, a combat plane can cause a hell of a lot more violence than any handgun."

I blinked and took a deep breath to try to shake my initial Alice in Wonderland response to this amazing statement. I explained, slowly and carefully, that privately owned guns are real guns and they will really kill people, while the plastic models are not actual warplanes. You could not bomb, strafe, or incinerate anyone with them even if you wanted to. Their inch-long bombs will not get loose and destroy the neighbor's house. An angry child cannot take one to school and dive bomb the principal's office with it.

As usual with wingnuts, this display of logic and fact did not move him a bit. "Yeah, well that's true if you think it's really about safety but we know it ain't. It's about politics and socialist indoctrination so they are being inconsistent when they ban one and not the other."
I concluded that facts are facts, and they must have a reason for this seeming inconsistency, perhaps that it really is about safety.

258 dragonath  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:23:29pm

From TPM:

Gov. Jan Brewer has taken a nearly week-long out-of-state work trip that was shrouded in secrecy Monday as she skipped an event to certify election ballots and her spokesman refused to disclose her location.

259 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:23:33pm

re: #242 freetoken

I'm trying to remember the last time I saw a machete in this country, must less touched one.

For some reason it strikes me that the "machete" argument just doesn't apply to this country.

Every Home Depot and Lowe's.

The machete argument doesn't apply in the US because we have easy access to guns.

And yes I agree that guns make violence more violent. Not trying to argue that. But to say that we can prevent the violence to begin with, no, I don't agree with that. Murder attempts will still occur, they will be less successful. Mass killings will still occur, but they will be less deadly.

260 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:24:31pm

re: #259 uncah91

Every Home Depot and Lowe's.

The machete argument doesn't apply in the US because we have easy access to guns.

And yes I agree that guns make violence more violent. Not trying to argue that. But to say that we can prevent the violence to begin with, no, I don't agree with that. Murder attempts will still occur, they will be less successful. Mass killings will still occur, but they will be less deadly.

Not a single person in this thread has claimed that we can "prevent all violence to begin with."

261 Four More Tears  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:24:33pm

re: #258 dragonath

From TPM:

Quick, someone check the Appalachian trails...

262 freetoken  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:25:19pm

re: #255 Gus

But don't hurt my feelings about owning a gun.

There's a song in there.

263 Petero1818  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:25:25pm

re: #261 Four More Tears

Quick, someone check the Appalachian trails...

I would totally love it if it turns out she has a girlfriend in South America.

264 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:25:45pm

re: #259 uncah91

Every Home Depot and Lowe's.

The machete argument doesn't apply in the US because we have easy access to guns.

And yes I agree that guns make violence more violent. Not trying to argue that. But to say that we can prevent the violence to begin with, no, I don't agree with that. Murder attempts will still occur, they will be less successful. Mass killings will still occur, but they will be less deadly.

See?
Red herring.

265 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:27:01pm

re: #264 Varek Raith

See?
Red herring.

Made out of straw.

266 palomino  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:27:49pm

re: #259 uncah91

Every Home Depot and Lowe's.

The machete argument doesn't apply in the US because we have easy access to guns.

And yes I agree that guns make violence more violent. Not trying to argue that. But to say that we can prevent the violence to begin with, no, I don't agree with that. Murder attempts will still occur, they will be less successful. Mass killings will still occur, but they will be less deadly

Which is precisely the point of having some gun regulations.

Not creating some fairy tale land with no violence whatsoever. That's a total straw man.

267 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:27:57pm

re: #265 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

Made out of straw.

Strawman fishing for red herrings.

268 jaunte  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:28:00pm
269 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:28:06pm

re: #260 Charles Johnson

Not a single person in this thread has claimed that we can "prevent all violence to begin with."

Also in this recent incident, if the gun wasn't available and a knife was used, I bet we would only have one death. Turning a knife on yourself would be quite a bit harder for someone to to do themselves.

270 dragonath  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:28:34pm

Think we'll have Acme Disintergrating Ray Pistols by the 24th and a half century?

271 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:29:49pm

Ah-ha! Now I've got the drop on you with my disintegrating pistol! And brother, when it disintegrates, it disintegrates!
...
Heh, well what do you know, it... disintegrated.

272 freetoken  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:31:35pm

re: #259 uncah91

Every Home Depot and Lowe's.

Yes, and often the Spanish speaking landscapers around here have one in their assortment of tools. Many many years ago when I worked for a city parks department in a summer job we had machetes for clearing shrubbery.

However, most people still never have used one.

The "machete argument" doesn't imply to the US not because we have guns but because Americans on the whole just don't use machetes in their lives, period.

It's just a silly argument.

Easy access to guns is directly related to the high violent crime rate (relative to many parts of the world) as well as the large number of suicides by gunshot.

273 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:32:01pm
Think we'll have Acme Disintergrating Ray Pistols by the 24th and a half century?

All we need is 3 steps... Gimme 3 Steps Toward The Door

274 freetoken  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:33:10pm

BTW, AFAIK, the local Mexican landscaper culture is not suffering from an outbreak of deaths-by-machete, no matter how cheap the tools at Home Depot may be.

275 TedStriker  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:33:23pm

re: #273 Political Atheist

All we need is 3 steps...

Towards the door?

/Skynyrd

276 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:34:01pm

re: #260 Charles Johnson

Not a single person in this thread has claimed that we can "prevent all violence to begin with."

Charles,

I honestly do want a genuine discussion. I'm not trolling. I know I'm not a well known commenter, but I'm not just some troll.

What gun law could we pass in the u.s. that would actually have prevented this tragedy? I'd love for every gun owner to store in a safe like Finland, but I dont see that if that law was passed in the u.s., it would actually affect behavior. I don't imagine you would see regular checks of homes for un-safed guns.

I believe there are trigger lock laws on the books in multiple states. I'm not aware of them affecting gun violence rates.

I think the NRA uses this as a bullshit wedge issue, and Dems tend to nibble at the edges, accomplishing little but feeding them

277 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:34:35pm

By the way, just so we know how freaking far away this was from a machete, Jovan Belcher shot his girlfriend NINE times. In front of his mother.

No machete in the world could do that kind of damage.

278 Petero1818  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:36:13pm

OT: Without any conclusions as to what they say about what transpired, I have to say that the photos of Zimmerman that were released today certainly are interesting. I can't imagine why it took so long for them to be released.

279 Mattand  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:37:57pm

Coming in late to this thread and don't feel like reading everything.

Are people seriously trying to make some sort of analogy between handguns and machetes in this country?

280 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:38:52pm

re: #279 Mattand

Coming in late to this thread and don't feel like reading everything.

Are people seriously trying to make some sort of analogy between handguns and machetes in this country?

Yes.

281 Petero1818  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:39:31pm

re: #279 Mattand

Coming in late to this thread and don't feel like reading everything.

Are people seriously trying to make some sort of analogy between handguns and machetes in this country?

only in so far as they can both be used to extract liquid from a coconut./

282 jaunte  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:39:44pm

re: #279 Mattand

People would rather talk about our general predilection for violence than about guns.

283 dragonath  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:39:53pm

There a lot of sick and crazy people out there. Remember that story about that Red-tailed hawk shot up with with a nail gun? What the fuck was that all about?

Sigh

284 Mattand  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:40:38pm

re: #280 Varek Raith

Yes.

Oh, for fuck's sake.

EDIT: That's just sad.

285 Gus  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:41:57pm
286 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:42:14pm

re: #264 Varek Raith

See?
Red herring.

Do you agree that Jaunte's comment about clubs and machetes was meant sarcastically, and that it implied that we wouldn't have these mass killings if the guns didn't exist?

Because that was the entire reason, clubs and machetes got pulled into this.

287 jaunte  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:43:41pm

re: #286 uncah91

Actually, Killgore began talking about bows and arrows up at #24, so I started looking for some stats.

288 Mattand  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:45:24pm

re: #287 jaunte

Actually, Killgore began talking about bows and arrows up at #24, so I started looking for some stats.

Why am I not shocked by this?

289 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:46:31pm

See, re: #287 jaunte

Actually, Killgore began talking about bows and arrows up at #24, so I started looking for some stats.

Oh, well if that wasn't sarc, I took it completely wrong.

290 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:50:32pm

re: #5 Charles Johnson

America has 90 guns for every 100 people.

That's nuts.

It wouldn't be a problem is 90 people each had one gun for every 100. It's that those ninety are concentrated in the hands of (something like) 10 people for every hundred.

Personally, I think this kind of debunks the idea that an armed society is a polite society.

The idea that each home should have a shot gun for self-defense (or rifle as in Switzerland) as a deterrant or whatever --doesn't work when those 90 guns are not in 90 homes.

291 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:50:57pm

From Whitlock's article:

Handguns do not enhance our safety. They exacerbate our flaws, tempt us to escalate arguments, and bait us into embracing confrontation rather than avoiding it.

I remember a few months ago really weirding people out by saying if I'm going into a potentially violent situation I would prefer not to be armed.

Why?

Because I want to be aware of exactly how much danger I'm in. I want my senses to be sharp. I want to know where every escape route is and I want to be aware of every bit of cover.

Carrying a firearm, as this paragraph explains, would make me feel safer, make me feel dangerous, make me think I'm a badass. I'm not and if I try to be, even with a firearm, I'm going to end up maimed or dead.

If you carry a firearm the temptation to escalate arguments will always be there. There's too good a chance a person will embrace confrontation rather than avoid it. Pure probability means that arguments will be escalated and confrontation embraced, and bodies will end up on a slab.

292 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:51:13pm

re: #183 McSpiff

Glad to "see" you back Spiffy!

293 Mattand  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:52:31pm

You know what's really sad? It's taking a sport broadcaster to force America to look at its firearm obsession/addiction.

Not the President. Not Congress. A sports broadcaster.

294 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:52:32pm

re: #15 wrenchwench

Don't blame the gun, blame the football?

I think not.

I think there is some evidence that pro-football players are prone to violence. There was some big thing about it a few years ago, IIRC.

295 Pawn of the Oppressor  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:52:50pm

I own guns, and I like Bob Costas. F the haters trying to muzzle a man for voicing an opinion.

I'm really not smart enough to figure a good strategy on this issue... I sometimes think I would gladly trade my license to carry for Israeli-style security, i.e. trained guys with firepower visible here and there on the streets, if it meant never having to read about some heinous broad-daylight crazy assault/murder in my metro area again.

I used to own more guns than I do now, but I downsized and kind of left the shooting scene, mainly because of the people and the politics.

I don't object to some notion of "control" or a real effort to reduce the number of handguns in circulation in the country, as long as it was part of a serious national dialogue on violence committed by young males, and the cultural problems we seem to have with aggression, lashing out, and "taking others out".

So, I'm on the fence... I'd like to keep & bear, but I'm not a nut about it anymore.

296 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:55:20pm

re: #294 Holidays are Family Fun Time

You mean because their profession requires them to behave violently?

297 dragonath  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:56:09pm
298 allegro  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:56:44pm

re: #296 Dancing along the light of day

You mean because their profession requires them to behave violently?

With pro sports players, it isn't the violence of the sport but the privilege of the players.

299 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:56:59pm

re: #38 Charles Johnson

Right, that 90% is not evenly distributed. There are a lot of paranoid weirdos hoarding a LOT of guns in America.

What could go wrong?

Yes, it's the hoarding that is a problem.

Undiagnosed mental illness, IMHO.

One that affects more than just the hoarder.

I know may are collectors of antiquarian firearms, they love history, that's great. I don't understand the need for "one of every kind"

Well, unless we are talking shoes.

300 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:58:26pm
re: #290 Holidays are Family Fun TimeThe idea that each home should have a shot gun for self-defense (or rifle as in Switzerland) as a deterrant or whatever --doesn't work when those 90 guns are not in 90 homes.

There's a rifle in every home in Switzerland because it is mandated by law. Every person over 18 serves in the military for two years and has to take their rifle home with them as they stay in the reserves for another twenty years. They're under military discipline and an officer or non-com can visit their home and inspect their firearm at any time.

This is a good thing. Learning firearm discipline is a good thing, and I'm betting the armed forces screen out the real loons tout de suite.

It will never happen here though. It would sound too much like gun control, Communist gun control, to the loons.

301 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 8:59:51pm

re: #300 Romantic Heretic

Thank you for making an articulate post about Switzerland! I was trying to compose one.

302 allegro  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:00:04pm

re: #300 Romantic Heretic

Hmm, that sounds a lot like a "well regulated militia." I think I've heard of that somewhere....

303 dragonath  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:05:39pm

re: #300 Romantic Heretic

The military IS gun control.

304 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:05:57pm

re: #295 Pawn of the Oppressor

I'd have no trouble with people owning guns, even concealed, if I was sure they knew what they were doing and I was sure they weren't insane. A method of teaching and licensing similar to driving cars would be workable for me.

Although I'd make the psych test really thorough and the training quite tough.

People should know what they are doing when they carry firearms.

305 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:06:13pm

David Hemenway a Phd at Harvard has been researching firearms as a public health issue for many years. His book is listed on this site along with other research.

In his book talk (I watched in C-SPAN) he said he had a difficult time comparing the US to any other country simply because one can't draw definite conclusions by doing so. He decided to use other English Speaking countries of immigrants for his comparisons, but said it still wasn't as accurate has he would like. Simply no other country compares.

He offerred the idea that we treat gun safety as we do auto safety. He said that America is not going to get rid of her handguns --so he decided to research ways to reduce harm --like they did with cars. 5-mile per hour bumpers, seat belts, collapsable dashboards, air bags, child safety seats etc.

It was an interesting talk. I appreciated Hemenway's speaking ability and his realization that it is a complex issue. It was a much more productive talk than the usual "guns are bad" rants --he actually seemed to focus on the problem --death from firearm, than the emotion involved.

306 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:07:42pm

re: #300 Romantic Heretic

There's a rifle in every home in Switzerland because it is mandated by law. Every person over 18 serves in the military for two years and has to take their rifle home with them as they stay in the reserves for another twenty years. They're under military discipline and an officer or non-com can visit their home and inspect their firearm at any time.

This is a good thing. Learning firearm discipline is a good thing, and I'm betting the armed forces screen out the real loons tout de suite.

It will never happen here though. It would sound too much like gun control, Communist gun control, to the loons.

Yes, I didn't want to digress into a different facet of a complex issue in my post --(training and military stuff). Thanks for picking-that-up.

307 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:08:34pm

re: #300 Romantic Heretic

There's a rifle in every home in Switzerland because it is mandated by law. Every person over 18 serves in the military for two years and has to take their rifle home with them as they stay in the reserves for another twenty years. They're under military discipline and an officer or non-com can visit their home and inspect their firearm at any time.

This is a good thing. Learning firearm discipline is a good thing, and I'm betting the armed forces screen out the real loons tout de suite.

It will never happen here though. It would sound too much like gun control, Communist gun control, to the loons.

I lived in Switzerland for a year when I was 13. I saw a guy walking with what appeared to be a .50 cal (to my young mind) over his shoulder and I was out past the Geneva youth curfew. I felt ... uncomfortable.

308 dragonath  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:09:24pm

re: #305 Holidays are Family Fun Time

That reminds me, the NRA is rabidly against gun locks. Gun locks.

The NRA is so far away from hunting advocacy now it isn't even funny.

309 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:10:32pm

re: #304 Romantic Heretic

I'd have no trouble with people owning guns, even concealed, if I was sure they knew what they were doing and I was sure they weren't insane. A method of teaching and licensing similar to driving cars would be workable for me.

Although I'd make the psych test really thorough and the training quite tough.

People should know what they are doing when they carry firearms.

Good luck, we can't get people to go for therapy as it is. One of the ideas is that they will have their rights restricted if they are diagnosed with a mental illness.

It was a breath of fresh air when I saw NAMI testify before congress about the mental health provisions. People can recover from mental illness and should be able, then to have a firearm.

Add to that the horrible practices of mental health professionals in the past--it's a big hurdle that isn't going away.

We do need to work to remove the taboo against mental health treatment.

310 Mattand  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:11:48pm

re: #308 dragonath

That reminds me, the NRA is rabidly against gun locks. Gun locks.

The NRA is so far away from hunting advocacy now it isn't even funny.

I had those morons call me during the 2010 elections, warning me about Obama's UN-inspired plot to take away the 2nd Amendment. Hand-on-the-Necronomicon, it was like I was in a Colbert Report skit.

I told him that was the stupidest fucking thing I'd ever heard and hung up on him.

311 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:12:27pm

re: #308 dragonath

That reminds me, the NRA is rabidly against gun locks. Gun locks.

The NRA is so far away from hunting advocacy now it isn't even funny.

I'm not sure I'm convinced about gun locks either. Kids seem to get into pill bottles etc.

Perhaps if it were a finger-print lock of some sort.

But I guess if we had that kind of advanced, reliable technology, we'd also have the non-lethal weapon I want for personal defense. . . . .

312 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:14:26pm

re: #308 dragonath

That reminds me, the NRA is rabidly against gun locks. Gun locks.

The NRA is so far away from hunting advocacy now it isn't even funny.

The NRA are also against government funding for studies of gun injuries and accidents.

They're way past advocating responsible ownership of guns. They're nuts, with a side of right-wing militia posturing.

313 uncah91  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:15:23pm

re: #312 The Gender Ambiguity of a Flea

The NRA are also against government funding for studies of gun injuries and accidents.

They're way past advocating responsible ownership of guns. They're nuts, with a side of right-wing militia posturing.

Plus a big helping of "keep the money flowing to the NRA"

314 dragonath  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:17:03pm

re: #311 Holidays are Family Fun Time

When I was like 3 or 4 years old when I figured out how to open a pill bottle. Then I was like, hey- this thing is like this for a reason.

Not that I'm expecting some dopey kids to get all self-conscious and all.

315 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:20:14pm

When my son was training to try out for the Rifle team at his school, we went to a local gun club every week. This club and it's members focused almost entirely on training kids thru the NRA program. Scouting, 4H etc. They boasted one Olympic Gold medalist (a woman) from years past.

This was one of the best group of people I"ve ever met-honestly. AND there was a usually more girls than boys. Fathers bringing in their daughters --it was very cool. NO alcohol, no smoking, no swearing, no running . . .

The think is that the kids (8-9 years old) were the MOST OBSERVANT of the rules. Yes, they were handling real guns--entering competitions and winning. Club provided firearms, and shooting jackets for use. Many moved on to the very expensive match rifles and full garb. I never knew the stuff that is needed for precision shooting competition.

316 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:23:23pm

Getting rid of firearms in this country is as unworkable as a border fence or shipping undocumented workers out of the country.

We have to get past the outrage and emotion AND FIND ANOTHER WAY.

I have a suspicion that it involves education.

317 wheat-dogghazi  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:24:10pm

re: #258 dragonath

From TPM:

Rehab?

Just sayin'

318 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:24:26pm

No one is saying "Get rid of guns!" here.
Sheesh.

319 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:25:37pm

re: #318 Varek Raith

No one is saying "Get rid of guns!" here.
Sheesh.

I know, not here.

I just hear so much rhetoric I get confused.

thanks for clarifying.

320 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:26:01pm

bbl

321 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:27:30pm

re: #316 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Getting rid of firearms in this country is as unworkable as a border fence or shipping undocumented workers out of the country.

We have to get past the outrage and emotion AND FIND ANOTHER WAY.

I have a suspicion that it involves education.

Tell that to the people who don't want trends in firearm injuries, accidents and crimes studied, and continue to prop up the borked "More Guns, Less Crime" study.

322 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:28:46pm

re: #268 jaunte

Then there was Charles Whitman, who killed his wife and mother before climbing the tower in Austin, but he had a brain tumor...

323 RadicalModerate  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:33:51pm

re: #252 jvic

Guns and explosives are sooo 20th century.

For mass murder, bioweapons could be the coming thing.

If/when weaponizable biotech becomes readily obtainable, the implications may well be far worse, far more unavoidable, than they are for guns.

I don't see biological or chemical weapons will be used mass-attacks in the United States anytime in the foreseeable future - primarily because most high-yield agents are extremely difficult (bordering on nigh-impossible) to obtain, much less weaponize. Explosives are much, much easier to fabricate and transport, and a coordinated multi-location attack achieves the same goals as a widespread single target point.

324 jaunte  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:34:35pm

Indian navy ready to deploy to South China Sea as tensions climb

HANOI/NEW DELHI (Reuters) - India has declared itself ready to deploy naval vessels to the South China Sea to protect its oil-exploration interests there, a potential new escalation of tensions in a disputed area where fears of armed conflict have been growing steadily.

India's naval chief made the statement on Monday just as Vietnam's state oil and gas company, Petrovietnam, accused Chinese boats of sabotaging an exploration operation by cutting a seismic cable being towed behind a Vietnamese vessel.
.....
Tensions have simmered in the South China Sea for many years but have escalated this year as an increasingly powerful China, which sees virtually the entire sea as its territory, begins to assert its long-standing offshore claims more vigorously.

Parts of the South China Sea are also claimed by the Philippines, Vietnam, Brunei, Malaysia and Taiwan. The region, Asia's biggest potential military troublespot, is believed to be rich in oil and gas -- and more than half the world's oil-tanker traffic passes through it.

325 TedStriker  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:35:03pm

re: #300 Romantic Heretic

There's a rifle in every home in Switzerland because it is mandated by law. Every person over 18 serves in the military for two years and has to take their rifle home with them as they stay in the reserves for another twenty years. They're under military discipline and an officer or non-com can visit their home and inspect their firearm at any time.

This is a good thing. Learning firearm discipline is a good thing, and I'm betting the armed forces screen out the real loons tout de suite.

It will never happen here though. It would sound too much like gun control, Communist gun control, to the loons.

The Wolverines! wannabes want the sexy toys and want them readily available, but not the personal and societal responsibilities that come with them.

326 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:37:02pm

re: #325 TedStriker

The Wolverines! wannabes want the sexy toys, but not the personal and societal responsibilities that come with them.

And the firearms industry is more than happy to offer it.

They even offer Hello Kitty Pink guns.

I don't get it. I wouldn't want a Hello Kitty anything.

People don't look for decoration on hammers or machetes do they?

327 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:38:42pm

re: #326 Holidays are Family Fun Time

People don't look for decoration on hammers or machetes do they?

hmmmmmmm

[Link: www.google.com...]

328 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:39:33pm

A pint of Mayfields Chocolate Ice Cream
A QT Boston Cream Donut
A Large Glass of Ice Cold Milk

Yup, I'm ready for the next 10 hours at work!!!

329 freetoken  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:39:42pm

re: #324 jaunte

Indian navy ready to deploy to South China Sea as tensions climb

Who said oil isn't worth dying for?

330 TedStriker  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:39:50pm

re: #326 Holidays are Family Fun Time

And the firearms industry is more than happy to offer it.

They even offer Hello Kitty Pink guns.

I don't get it. I wouldn't want a Hello Kitty anything.

People don't look for decoration on hammers or machetes do they?

Well, Maxwell had his silver hammer...

///

331 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:40:20pm

re: #330 TedStriker

Well, Maxwell had his silver hammer...

///

Thats cause he was Smart!!!
/

332 TedStriker  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:40:36pm

re: #328 sattv4u2

A pint of Mayfields Chocolate Ice Cream
A QT Boston Cream Donut
A Large Glass of Ice Cold Milk

Yup, I'm ready for the next 10 hours at work!!!

Mayfield ice cream is good, but Turkey Hill is better.

333 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:41:10pm

re: #332 TedStriker

Mayfield ice cream is good, but Turkey Hill is better.

Yeah. Krogers has Turkey Hill, but the Publix on the way to work doesn't

334 TedStriker  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:41:16pm

re: #331 sattv4u2

Thats cause he was Smart!!!
/

Oh, darling...

///

335 TedStriker  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:41:55pm

re: #333 sattv4u2

Yeah. Krogers has Turkey Hill, but the Publix on the way to work doesn't

Publix's house brand ice cream isn't too bad, IIRC.

336 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:42:14pm

re: #335 TedStriker

Publix's house brand ice cream isn't too bad, IIRC.

you do RC

337 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:42:41pm

re: #335 TedStriker

re: #336 sattv4u2

you do RC

but a pint of Mayfields was only $1

338 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:44:53pm

UPDATE

re: #328 sattv4u2

A pint of Mayfields Chocolate Ice Cream
A QT Boston Cream Donut
A Large Glass of Ice Cold Milk

Yup, I'm ready for the next 10 hours at work!!!

339 TedStriker  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:48:13pm

re: #336 sattv4u2

you do RC

Ehh, I don't go to Publix that often...the nearest one is out of my way. Kroger and Wally World are much more convenient.

However, Publix's cakes are the bomb (for store-bought cake).

340 TedStriker  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:48:52pm

...

341 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:51:16pm

re: #339 TedStriker

Ehh, I don't go to Publix that often...the nearest one is out of my way.

When we 1st move down here to Georgia (kinda out in the country) Publix was the nearest grocery store to us, albeit a good 10 miles away

Since then they've built 2 Krogers, each further than the Publix but I go to Krogers for most things but Publix is still better for baked goods and prepared foods

342 TedStriker  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:53:05pm

re: #341 sattv4u2

When we 1st move down here to Georgia (kinda out in the country) Publix was the nearest grocery store to us, albeit a good 10 miles away

Since then they've 2 Krogers, each further than the Publix but I go to Krogers for most things but Publix is still better for baked goods and prepared foods

Publix does have damn good cake; Kroger's blows in comparison.

343 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:53:39pm

re: #342 TedStriker

Publix does have damn good cake; Kroger's blows in comparison.

And their breads are very good also

344 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:54:38pm

re: #327 sattv4u2

People don't look for decoration on hammers or machetes do they?

hmmmmmmm

[Link: www.google.com...]

oooooohhh!

345 TedStriker  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 9:58:39pm

re: #344 Holidays are Family Fun Time

oooooohhh!

No hotlinking, apparently.

346 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 10:00:10pm

re: #345 TedStriker

No hotlinking, apparently.

?????

347 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 10:01:29pm

re: #346 Holidays are Family Fun Time

?????

All there is is a grey screen with a very small box in the middle that states
Image Hosted By Tripod with their web addy

348 TedStriker  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 10:01:59pm

re: #346 Holidays are Family Fun Time

?????

All I get when I click on your link is a generic "This image is hosted by Tripod" GIF.

349 Mich-again  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 10:02:20pm

I saw a couple pics on FB of a cute little 13 year old girl who shot a 10 point buck. In one she was smiling holding up the Buck's head showing off the rack. No problem with that.

But the next one, she was clutching the dead buck's heart in her hands and smiling. That one creeped me out. WTF.

350 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 10:05:13pm

re: #327 sattv4u2

People don't look for decoration on hammers or machetes do they?

hmmmmmmm

[Link: www.google.com...]

It's the pretty one to the far right of your original google search.

351 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 10:07:27pm
352 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 10:08:25pm

re: #345 TedStriker

re: #347 sattv4u2

I'll never understand these things.

It does fine when I click my post.

grrrrr . . . .

Anyway, I'd look real good hang pictures with that hammer in my hand!

353 dragonath  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 10:10:04pm
354 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 10:10:36pm

re: #353 dragonath

Image: 1asmokeystover.jpg

ha! Your link didn't work either.

355 TedStriker  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 10:10:40pm

re: #353 dragonath

Image: 1asmokeystover.jpg

"The requested content cannot be loaded.
Please try again later."

356 dragonath  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 10:11:33pm

arg

357 Joanne  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 10:12:20pm

re: #1 bratwurst

Not only are there too many guns in this country, we are also cursed with idiots who seem to believe there is not problem with gun violence that can't be solved with MORE GUNS:

For a supposed follower of Jesus, this guy has truly screwy values. There are times I'd wish there was a He and that He would return to Earth to tell these people who dare say they speak His values that they're the ones being left behind.

358 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 10:12:42pm

re: #296 Dancing along the light of day

You mean because their profession requires them to behave violently?

No, there was something a while back about football players being involved in a higher incidence of domestic abuse -even the lethal kind.

359 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 10:15:34pm

Well, I'm going to leave you all alone and zone out in photoshop and audio books.

Have a great evening.

360 ReamWorks SKG  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 10:19:48pm

Calling for him to be fired, even if you disagree, is absurd. His job is to provide commentary, and he did. He wasn't racist, hateful, incendiary, or dishonest.

Of course, as Rush Limbaugh pointed out on his show today if you take away their guns, football players will simply stab their girlfriends or ex-wives with knives.

361 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 10:21:12pm

I almost shot a guy once but it turned out to be a pig anyhow.

362 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 10:25:44pm

re: #361 Obdicut

I almost shot a guy once but it turned out to be a pig anyhow.

Porky?
YOU BASTARD!

363 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 10:27:07pm

re: #361 Obdicut

re: #362 Varek Raith

LOL!

364 sattv4u2  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 10:27:23pm

re: #361 Obdicut

I almost shot a guy once but it turned out to be a pig anyhow.

You tried to shoot a guy with a pig?

365 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 10:53:42pm

re: #364 sattv4u2

You tried to shoot a guy with a pig?

And apparently killed the thread.

366 TedStriker  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 10:58:31pm

re: #365 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

And apparently killed the thread.

But didn't shoot the deputy.

367 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 11:20:32pm

re: #366 TedStriker

But didn't shoot the deputy.

He shot the sheriff!

368 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 11:24:18pm

re: #367 Dancing along the light of day

He shot the sheriff!

I thought it was the pig.

He shot the spareribs.

369 freetoken  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 11:29:43pm
370 simoom  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 11:42:18pm

FP: Bob Dole to confront Senate Republicans on U.N. disabilities treaty

The Senate will hold a showdown Tuesday over a U.N. treaty to protect people with disabilities, and former Republican Sen. Bob Dole will take to the Senate floor to try to ensure Republicans don't kill Senate ratification of the pact.

The U.N. Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities was negotiated by the George H.W. Bush administration and would codify in international law most of the rights afforded to disabled people currently enshrined in American law since the passage of the Americans for Disabilities Act (ADA) in 1990. The convention was adopted in 2008 and the United States signed it in 2009, but the Senate has yet to ratify it. It has been ratified by 125 countries and the European Union.

The treaty was expected to get broad bipartisan support in the Senate, which passed the original ASA 91-6. But after a wave of opposition emerged last month, a procedural vote to move the treaty forward last week in the Senate only passed 61-36, and 66 votes are needed to ratify the treaty for Tuesday's vote.

The Cable has learned that Dole will use his privileges as a former senator to be on the Senate floor Tuesday during the debate and vote on the treaty in a dramatic effort to force any Republicans who intended to vote against the treaty to walk past him to do so.

The eleventh-hour opposition is related to the opposition of some Senate Republicans and former Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA). Santorum claims the treaty "would put the state in the position of determining what is in the best interest of a disabled child," and allow the government to overrule parents when making decisions about their disabled children.

I hope fmr. Sen. Dole can pull it off, and get his party to choose human rights over the "Agenda 21" freaks in the base.

371 simoom  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 11:49:04pm

Oh, and I found this interesting -- it shows the insane access Roger Ailes gets even at the highest levels of the federal gov't:

WaPo: Fox News chief’s failed attempt to enlist Petraeus as presidential candidate

In spring 2011, Ailes asked a Fox News analyst headed to Afghanistan to pass on his thoughts to Petraeus, who was then the commander of U.S. and coalition forces there. Petraeus, Ailes advised, should turn down an expected offer from President Obama to become CIA director and accept nothing less than the chairmanship of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the top military post. If Obama did not offer the Joint Chiefs post, Petraeus should resign from the military and run for president, Ailes suggested.

The Fox News chairman’s message was delivered to Petraeus by Kathleen T. McFarland, a Fox News national security analyst and former national security and Pentagon aide in three Republican administrations. She did so at the end of a 90-minute, unfiltered conversation with Petraeus that touched on the general’s future, his relationship with the media and his political aspirations — or lack thereof. The Washington Post has obtained a digital recording from the meeting, which took place in Petraeus’s office in Kabul.

McFarland also said that Ailes — who had a decades-long career as a Republican political consultant, advising Richard M. Nixon, Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush — might resign as head of Fox to run a Petraeus presidential campaign. At one point, McFarland and Petraeus spoke about the possibility that Rupert Murdoch, the head of News Corp., which owns Fox News, would “bankroll” the campaign.

“Rupert’s after me as well,” Petraeus told McFarland.

McFarland said she had spoken “directly” to the Fox News chairman and the “advice to you from Roger Ailes is. . . . He says that if you’re offered [JCS] chairman, take it. If you’re offered anything else, don’t take it; resign in six months and run for president.”

...

When McFarland first said she had a message directly from Ailes, Petraeus said, “With no one else in the room, I hope?”

Later she said, “I’m only reporting this back to Roger. And that’s our deal.”

Petraeus said it was okay to relay his response to Ailes, adding “that has to be off the record.”

“His deal with me was that I was only supposed to talk to you,” McFarland said. “And he is a little paranoid, so believe me, he doesn’t have anybody in that room.”

...

While rejecting Ailes’ advice, Petraeus said, “I love Roger. . . . He’s a brilliant guy.”

Petraeus said he “would love to see” Ailes on his next trip to New York, where Ailes has his office.

“Tell him if I ever ran,” Petraeus said, and then laughed, “but I won’t . . . but if I ever ran, I’d take him up on his offer. . . . He said he would quit Fox . . . and bankroll it.”

“Bankroll it?” asked McFarland, who served as a senior aide to Henry Kissinger and later as a Pentagon spokeswoman in the Reagan administration.

“Or maybe I’m confusing that with Rupert,” Petraeus said.

“I know Roger, he’s done okay,” McFarland replied, “but . . . no, I think the one who’s bankrolling it is the big boss.”

“That might be it,” Petraeus said.

“Okay,” McFarland said, “the big boss is bankrolling it. Roger’s going to run it. And the rest of us are going to be your in-house.”

...

“It’s never going to happen,” Petraeus said. “You know it’s never going to happen. It really isn’t.

“My wife would divorce me,” he added. “And I love my wife. . . . We have a beautiful house.” Both Petraeus and McFarland laughed. “With his-and-hers bathrooms, believe it or not. I just want to live in it. I’ve never spent a night in it.”

372 simoom  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 11:54:40pm

re: #371 simoom

The audio is here:
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

373 researchok  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 12:20:19am

Morning, all

374 freetoken  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 12:24:37am
375 researchok  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 12:25:54am

re: #369 freetoken

I just hope you have fewer tree ornaments than you do holiday musical selections.

Or you are going to need a bigger house.
/

376 researchok  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 12:29:34am

re: #374 freetoken

Nice piece- favorited.

Who is that?

377 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 12:37:43am

Lol at North Korea.

Unicorns exist and look no further than an ancient burial site in North Korea for proof, according to the latest bit of fantastic news to emerge from the secretive dictatorship.

North Korean archaeologists “have recently reconfirmed a lair of the unicorn rode by King Tongmyong,” reports the state news outlet, Korean Central News Agency.

“A rectangular rock carved with words ‘Unicorn Lair’ stands in front of the lair. The carved words are believed to date back to the period of Koryo Kingdom (918-1392),” the article states.

The Korean Central News Agency has previously reported that its late leader, Kim Jong Il, was born under a double rainbow and once stopped a blizzard.
[Link: today.msnbc.msn.com...]

Look at the picture of the rock at the article, it looks like it was just carved yesterday...what a bunch of phonies.

378 wheat-dogghazi  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 12:41:08am

re: #361 Obdicut

I once shot an elephant in my pajamas ...

379 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 12:43:50am

re: #378 wheat-dogghazi

I once shot an elephant in my pajamas ...

Why was the elephant wearing your pajamas?

380 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 12:43:53am

re: #378 wheat-dogghazi

What was an elephant doing in your pajamas?

381 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 12:44:31am

re: #380 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

3 seconds, HAH! ;)

/

382 researchok  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 12:46:38am

re: #377 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Millions of 6 and 7 year old girls worldwide will be thrilled with the news.

In the meantime enjoy the new North Korean national anthem:

383 wheat-dogghazi  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 12:48:25am

re: #380 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

I'll never know.

384 Kragar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:20:10am

Voyager discovers ‘magnetic highway’ at edge of solar system

Earlier this year a surge in a key indicator fueled hopes that the craft was nearing the so-called heliopause, which marks the boundary between our solar system and outer space.

But instead of slipping away from the bubble of charged particles the Sun blows around itself, Voyager encountered something completely unexpected.

The craft’s daily radio reports sent back evidence that the Sun’s magnetic field lines was connected to interstellar magnetic fields. Lower-energy charged particles were zooming out and higher-energy particles from outside were streaming in.

They called it a magnetic highway because charged particles outside this region bounced around in all directions, as if trapped on local roads inside the bubble, or heliosphere.

385 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:00:21am

re: #384 Kragar

They called it a magnetic highway

Many states are now trying to figure out how to put in a toll booth !
/

386 sundude  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:10:44am

Hmm. Family has owned several semi-automatic rifles, shotguns, and handguns over the decades. None have resembled what the infographic labels as a semi-automatic weapon. Point, this definition of terms problem hinders progress on the control issue.

387 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:16:56am

re: #386 sundude

Hmm. Family has owned several semi-automatic rifles, shotguns, and handguns over the decades. None have resembled what the infographic labels as a semi-automatic weapon. Point, this definition of terms problem hinders progress on the control issue.

Que??

There are 4 categories on the chart

All the ones your "Family has owned" are represented. That none of them "resemble" that is of no consequence. I've owned dozens of vehicles over the years. None have "resembled" a 1924 Nash, yet all did the same basic thing

388 sundude  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:51:40am

re: #387 sattv4u2

Few in the family would object to restrictions on say 'military assault style' weapons. Don't own any, have no use for them, so wouldn't affect us. With the exact same intent change the term to 'semi-automatic' weapons and it instead comes across as the big nasty government coming after an old varmint rifle, a favorite shotgun, etc. The gun lobby exploits this big time. Find a different term, eliminate the ambiguity and confusion, see progress on the control issue.

389 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 4:06:08am

The silhouettes are all of semi autos. The shotgun is a Remington 1100, the handgun is some species of 1911, the semi auto is an AR15, and the other is a Barrett 82A1. None of them are NFA weapons.

The AR15 is an assault weapon in CA, as is the Barrett. Both are ok here with bullet buttons, but the Barrett has to be the .416 version not the .50BMG.

The problem is the handguns. Especially the small, easily concealed ones. The Barrett weighs 30 lbs empty and costs $8500 used, ain't anybody holding up a liquor store with that.

390 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 4:10:56am

re: #389 goddamnedfrank

The silhouettes are all of semi autos. The shotgun is a Remington 1100, the handgun is some species of 1911, the semi auto is an AR15, and the other is a Barrett 82A1. None of them are NFA weapons.

The AR15 is an assault weapon in CA, as is the Barrett. Both are ok here with bullet buttons, but the Barrett has to be the .416 version not the .50BMG.

The problem is the handguns. Especially the small, easily concealed ones. The Barrett weighs 30 lbs empty and costs $8500 used, ain't anybody holding up a liquor store with that.

Maybe Ahnold.

//

391 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 4:11:38am

re: #389 goddamnedfrank

The silhouettes are all of semi autos. The shotgun is a Remington 1100, the handgun is some species of 1911, the semi auto is an AR15, and the other is a Barrett 82A1. None of them are NFA weapons.

The AR15 is an assault weapon in CA, as is the Barrett. Both are ok here with bullet buttons, but the Barrett has to be the .416 version not the .50BMG.

The problem is the handguns. Especially the small, easily concealed ones. The Barrett weighs 30 lbs empty and costs $8500 used, ain't anybody holding up a liquor store with that.

It must be said in reply that a small concealable handgun is a thing useful for robbing a store, but it is also the thing a woman might carry in her purse to use to ward off a would-be rapist. The mind behind the weapon is the truly problematic factor, not the weapon itself.

392 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 4:15:21am

re: #390 Targetpractice

Maybe Ahnold.

//

He has no need to rob anything. He'll make more money for his upcoming starring role in The Last Stand that everyone on this blog will make in 6 months combined. Nice work if you can get it.

393 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 4:18:19am

re: #392 Dark_Falcon

He has no need to rob anything. He'll make more money for his upcoming starring role in The Last Stand that everyone on this blog will make in 6 months combined. Nice work if you can get it.

Hence the sarcasm. Little known movie fact that, during filming of Terminator 2, Ahnold was the only guy on the set who could lift the M134 Minigun by himself. And those suckers weigh 85lbs empty.

394 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 4:28:11am

re: #390 Targetpractice

Maybe Ahnold.

//

I can.
With the Force.
Then again, I can also toss lightning around.

395 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:13:46am

File under "Interesting If True":

Report: Obama Considering Vogue Editor Anna Wintour For Ambassadorship

President Obama is mulling the possibility of tapping Vogue editor-in-chief Anna Wintour to be the next ambassador to the United Kingdom or France, Bloomberg reports.

Wintour was one of the Obama campaign's biggest fundraiser, memorably co-hosting a high-dollar dinner for the president at the Manhattan home of Sarah Jessica Parker.

396 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:14:24am

K. I'll say this since I wasn't here for the thread. Bob Costas shouldn't be fired. But I really don't give a shit what he thinks. Analyze the game, dude. AND, I have hated Jason Whitlock for a long time considering I used to watch The Sports Reporters every Sunday. There.
Morning Honcos!!

397 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:16:05am

re: #396 Cannadian Club Akbar

K. I'll say this since I wasn't here for the thread. Bob Costas shouldn't be fired. But I really don't give a shit what he thinks. Analyze the game, dude. AND, I have hated Jason Whitlock for a long time considering I used to watch The Sports Reporters every Sunday. There.
Morning Honcos!!

Pretty much agree, I don't think Costas said anything worth firing him over, but I'd give him a little nudge to say "Dude, do your job, save that shit for later."

398 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:19:43am

re: #397 Targetpractice

Pretty much agree, I don't think Costas said anything worth firing him over, but I'd give him a little nudge to say "Dude, do your job, save that shit for later."

Next thing you know Bob will be at the Olympics: "Wow, I haven't seen a performance like that in ages!! And I'm Pro Gay Marriage!!!"
///////It's a joke people!!!

399 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:21:16am

re: #397 Targetpractice

Pretty much agree, I don't think Costas said anything worth firing him over, but I'd give him a little nudge to say "Dude, do your job, save that shit for later."

Ditto. Keep the politics out of sports. Football is contentious enough without injecting politics into it. But that said, Costas won't and shouldn't be fired. What he said was at worst simply wrong, not something born of malice.

400 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:21:50am

A humorous look at the feasibility of using firearm recoil as a source of thrust in a jetpack, from the author of XKCD

The GAU-8 Avenger fires up to sixty one-pound bullets a second. It produces almost five tons of recoil force, which is crazy considering that it’s mounted in a type of plane (the A-10 “Warthog”) whose two engines produce only four tons of thrust each. If you put two of them in one aircraft, and fired both guns forward while opening up the throttle, the guns would win and you’d accelerate backward.

To put it another way: If I mounted a GAU-8 on my car, put the car in neutral, and started firing backward from a standstill, I would be breaking the interstate speed limit in less than three seconds.

Image: jetpack_speeding.png

401 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:22:30am

re: #399 Dark_Falcon

Ditto. Keep the politics out of sports. Football is contentious enough without injecting politics into it. But that said, Costas won't and shouldn't be fired. What he said was at worst simply wrong, not something born of malice.

Costas nailed it with Jerry Sandusky, that's for sure. (no pun intended)

402 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:23:26am

re: #396 Cannadian Club Akbar

re: #397 Targetpractice

I didn't have a problem with him making the editorial during the show. It is a football related story (especially since the suicide was done at the teams facility)

Should he be fired? No way
Should people be able to agree or criticize whether or not he should have commented? Sure

403 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:25:01am

re: #400 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

A humorous look at the feasibility of using firearm recoil as a source of thrust in a jetpack, from the author of XKCD

Image: jetpack_speeding.png

Sounds like Sovereign Citizen Heaven: "I'm a Free Man firing off these shells to go where I like. Anyone who tries to stop me is an Evil Oppressor!"

404 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:25:12am

re: #402 sattv4u2

Well, football related because of who it involved. Maybe he should have brought up steroids. Or drug use from injury and drinking while on the drugs.

405 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:26:58am

re: #401 Cannadian Club Akbar

Costas nailed it with Jerry Sandusky, that's for sure. (no pun intended)

With those kinds of football related stories, comment is appropriate. If Bob Costas had left off his last couple sentences, I'd have had no objection at all.

406 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:27:00am

re: #403 Dark_Falcon

Sounds like Sovereign Citizen Heaven: "I'm a Free Man firing off these shells to go where I like. Anyone who tries to stop me is an Evil Oppressor!"

And oddly enough, if you needed to "slam on the brakes" you'd need to spin around and fire in front of the vehicle, possibly creating a hole you might drive into.
/

407 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:27:54am

re: #402 sattv4u2

re: #397 Targetpractice

I didn't have a problem with him making the editorial during the show. It is a football related story (especially since the suicide was done at the teams facility)

Should he be fired? No way
Should people be able to agree or criticize whether or not he should have commented? Sure

I'm fine with people expressing disapproval of his editorializing and take issue with his beliefs. Hell, if they should choose to boycott the show, go for it. They wanna picket the studio, again, more power to them. But I don't think he said anything that warrants termination.

408 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:28:09am

re: #404 Cannadian Club Akbar

Well, football related because of who it involved. Maybe he should have brought up steroids. Or drug use from injury and drinking while on the drugs.

Perhaps those will be follow up editorials when/ if they do an autopsy on the player and find that drugs/ booze/ brain damage from football had any part of it

He does have (or had,, don't know if it still airs) a monthly show called Costas Tonight

409 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:29:28am

re: #407 Targetpractice

I'm fine with people expressing disapproval of his editorializing and take issue with his beliefs. Hell, if they should choose to boycott the show, go for it. They wanna picket the studio, again, more power to them. But I don't think he said anything that warrants termination.

Then it appears we here are in agreement: Agree or disagree with what he said, Bob Costas should keep his job.

410 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:31:59am

re: #408 sattv4u2

Perhaps those will be follow up editorials when/ if they do an autopsy on the player and find that drugs/ booze/ brain damage from football had any part of it

He does have (or had,, don't know if it still airs) a monthly show called Costas Tonight

I used to love Tom Snyder on CBS late night. Was even a caller on the show once.:)

411 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:35:06am

re: #410 Cannadian Club Akbar

I used to love Tom Snyder on CBS late night. Was even a caller on the show once.:)

As Barney Fife was wont to say
"He's a nut" (sometimes)

Some of his interviews were ,, well,,, different!!!

412 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:36:10am

First week of December...and the high is 71F. Glad that we proved global warming a hoax.

///

413 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:37:03am

re: #309 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Good luck, we can't get people to go for therapy as it is. One of the ideas is that they will have their rights restricted if they are diagnosed with a mental illness.

It was a breath of fresh air when I saw NAMI testify before congress about the mental health provisions. People can recover from mental illness and should be able, then to have a firearm.

Add to that the horrible practices of mental health professionals in the past--it's a big hurdle that isn't going away.

We do need to work to remove the taboo against mental health treatment.

As someone who suffers from a mental illness I understand that quite well.

One of the biggest stigmas of suffering from mental illness is that many think it is a choice. That if you had just grown a spine you would be fine.

I have suspicions of the mental equilibrium of such people myself.

414 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:42:21am

This story is a bit weird and from, OMG, Florida. I'll throw some highlights, but WTF? Here we go:
ST. PETERSBURG — On Saturday morning, Pinellas deputies were called to the Sunshine Mobile Home Park for a brutal double shooting apparently fueled by unrequited love.

The next night, they were called to another mobile home park — this one just down the street — for a brutal animal cruelty case involving kittens individually wrapped in sandwich bags in a freezer.

By the third day, authorities had uncovered a bizarre twist: The suspects in the two cases were roommates.

They all lived in the same mobile home, the Pinellas County Sheriff's Office said Monday. Two of them were father and son.
....
Sheriff's investigators say Francis James Bahr, 55, shot a man and woman at the Sunshine Mobile Home Park early Saturday morning. Bahr wanted a relationship with the woman, but had been rebuffed.

Bahr had help, deputies said.

They arrested Damian William Blanchard, 24, late Monday after he returned to the home he shared with his father and Bahr in the Vagabond Mobile Home Park.

Blanchard was "directly involved" in the shootings and called the victims out of their home before they were shot, said Pinellas County sheriff's spokeswoman Cecilia Barreda.

It is unclear whether Blanchard knew that less than 24 hours earlier, someone had found a bunch of kittens in his freezer — or that his dad was jailed because of it.
[Link: www.tampabay.com...]

415 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:44:51am

My head hurts.
/

416 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:45:11am

re: #414 Cannadian Club Akbar

Key phrases

Mobile Home Park
mobile home

Not stereotyping, but ,, ummm,,,, well, who am I kidding

I AM stereotyping !!!
/

417 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:46:14am

re: #414 Cannadian Club Akbar

Yeah, I really didn't need to read the part about the kittens. As a cat person, that just leaves me feeling all sorts of disgusted and depressed.

418 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:48:31am

re: #413 Romantic Heretic

As someone who suffers from a mental illness I understand that quite well.

One of the biggest stigmas of suffering from mental illness is that many think it is a choice. That if you had just grown a spine you would be fine.

I have suspicions of the mental equilibrium of such people myself.

It's not mostly that these days, or at least not in the military (the place where my own readings and conversations have been broad enough to form an informed conclusion.). Much of it is a fear of not being able to do one's job, of having to leave and not being able to do one's job for the unit. The social pressure is less "If he were tougher, he'd be fine." and more "Can we be sure he's all right? Can we count on him when things get nasty again?"

419 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:48:36am

re: #417 Targetpractice

Yeah, I really didn't need to read the part about the kittens. As a cat person, that just leaves me feeling all sorts of disgusted and depressed.

Sorry man. It was an important part of the story.

420 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:49:04am

re: #316 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Getting rid of firearms in this country is as unworkable as a border fence or shipping undocumented workers out of the country.

We have to get past the outrage and emotion AND FIND ANOTHER WAY.

I have a suspicion that it involves education.

Actually, it involves cultural change, in my opinion.

From my observations from outside the U.S. it seems violence is a perfectly proper way to settle problems in the States to a large portion of the nation. And not just among the wingnuts and moonbats either.

I suspect it is because, perhaps more than any other modern nation, violence has been a successful strategy for the U.S. It was born in violence. It spread through violence. It became a world power through violence.

That is the usual way a world power comes about. But the preceding world powers (England, France, Germany, Russia, China) suffered greatly in the last century from violence. They either had large tracts of their countries ruined and huge casualty levels, or they bankrupted themselves. Now, and hopefully forever, they have given up on violence as a preferred solution to problems.

The U.S. has had only one incident similar to the World Wars, the Civil War. But that was long ago, and it seems to me through my study of history that it takes a lot of disasters before nations learn anything.

My $0.02.

421 BongCrodny  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:49:13am

re: #377 watching you tiny alien kittens are

The Korean Central News Agency has previously reported that its late leader, Kim Jong Il, was born under a double rainbow and once stopped a blizzard.

He was The Most Interesting Man In The World.

422 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:49:26am

re: #419 Cannadian Club Akbar

Sorry man. It was an important part of the story.

I know, but it's just hard to read.

423 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:50:53am

re: #421 BongCrodny

He was The Most Interesting Man In The World.

"I don't always endorse the oppression and genocide of my fellow man, but when I do, I do it for Marxism. Stay communist, my friend."

424 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:52:56am

re: #423 Targetpractice

"I don't always endorse the oppression and genocide of my fellow man, but when I do, I do it for Marxism. Stay communist, my friend."-Mao, Stalin, etc.

FTFY

425 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:54:34am

re: #417 Targetpractice

Yeah, I really didn't need to read the part about the kittens. As a cat person, that just leaves me feeling all sorts of disgusted and depressed.

The good news is that three of the kittens survived and they'll be adopted by decent people. As Rodney Blanchard, he should get a long jail term, the first night of which should be spent in a specially chilled cell. Not enough to kill him, but enough to make him suffer.

426 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:55:28am

re: #425 Dark_Falcon

The good news is that three of the kittens survived and they'll be adopted by decent people. As Rodney Blanchard, he should get a long jail term, the first night of which should be spent in a specially chilled cell. Not enough to kill him, but enough to make him suffer.

Yeah, nice to see a silver lining here.

427 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 5:58:16am

re: #423 Targetpractice

"I don't always endorse the oppression and genocide of my fellow man, but when I do, I do it for Marxism. Stay communist, my friend."

That works for the Latin American angle, too, if you picture Ernesto 'Che' Guevara. He thought like that as well, believing that the "Glorious Future' he was helping to usher in justified his actions.

May the Kims still alive turn from their path of oppression in the name of ideology, lest they join Che, Kim Il-Sung and Jong-Il in Hell.

428 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:00:03am

re: #427 Dark_Falcon

That works for the Latin American angle, too, if you picture Ernesto 'Che' Guevara. He thought like that as well, believing that the "Glorious Future' he was helping to usher in justified his actions.

May the Kims still alive turn from their path of oppression in the name of ideology, lest they join Che, Kim Il-Sung and Jong-Il in Hell.

Yeah, you notice that communist leaders seem to take a very Machiavellian bent to their outlook.

429 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:00:53am

re: #426 Targetpractice

Yeah, nice to see a silver lining here.

I also take some comfort in knowing that Florida is going to lower the boom on Mr. Bahr and the younger Blanchard. They'll be doing 20 years minimum for their crime, and they should, too.

430 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:01:18am

So I trust y'alls advice. I really like my job but I was contacted through email about a "job fair" for a large chain restaurant. Now, I actually sent them my resume in 1998 or 1999 when they only had 4 stores. Now the place is a juggernaut. But they called me and told me about a change in the interview process. I don't think they would personally call me to just be a worker bee. Thoughts? Might be a 25 or 33% raise from what I make now. Which isn't much, but I have a roof and food.

431 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:04:04am

re: #430 Cannadian Club Akbar

So I trust y'alls advice. I really like my job but I was contacted through email about a "job fair" for a large chain restaurant. Now, I actually sent them my resume in 1998 or 1999 when they only had 4 stores. Now the place is a juggernaut. But they called me and told me about a change in the interview process. I don't think they would personally call me to just be a worker bee. Thoughts? Might be a 25 or 33% raise from what I make now. Which isn't much, but I have a roof and food.

Unless they're making you quit your current job just to interview with them (a change in the interview process) you go, do the interview(s) and sit back and wait

432 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:04:06am

re: #428 Targetpractice

Yeah, you notice that communist leaders seem to take a very Machiavellian bent to their outlook.

Not really. Machiavelli would have scolded them for leaving themselves vulnerable by letting their people starve. He'd tell them to change ideological course (albeit without admitting they were doing so) in order to strengthen their state. He would, however, say that Kim Jung-Un's purge by retirement of the North Korean government has been the right move.

433 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:06:11am

re: #430 Cannadian Club Akbar

So I trust y'alls advice. I really like my job but I was contacted through email about a "job fair" for a large chain restaurant. Now, I actually sent them my resume in 1998 or 1999 when they only had 4 stores. Now the place is a juggernaut. But they called me and told me about a change in the interview process. I don't think they would personally call me to just be a worker bee. Thoughts? Might be a 25 or 33% raise from what I make now. Which isn't much, but I have a roof and food.

I'm with Satt: Unless its going to interfere with your current job, take the interview and see what they are offering. don't be afraid to move up in the world if the opportunity is the right one.

434 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:06:12am

re: #430 Cannadian Club Akbar

So I trust y'alls advice. I really like my job but I was contacted through email about a "job fair" for a large chain restaurant. Now, I actually sent them my resume in 1998 or 1999 when they only had 4 stores. Now the place is a juggernaut. But they called me and told me about a change in the interview process. I don't think they would personally call me to just be a worker bee. Thoughts? Might be a 25 or 33% raise from what I make now. Which isn't much, but I have a roof and food.

Like anything, it depends where you are in your life right now. Would it be a good fit? Would you be (mentally and physically) where you would like to be? Money is always great, but there are other things. Myself for example, I could be making 15 - 20K more a year than I do now. But that would mean moving or traveling 3-4 hours a day to and from work. I have other priorities right now, things I would miss if I did that so the time is not right for me. In 5-6 years I might jump on one of those headhunter emails about positions in Hawaii. :-)

435 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:20:27am

re: #434 Eventual Carrion

those headhunter emails about positions

I'd be wary

//

436 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:21:59am

See, here is my problem. I did an interview once and asked the guy, "What does the company have to offer me". He said "what are you looking for". I said: Director of Operations (a Florida only company). But the guy was the DoO. D'oh!! I just don't want to spurt out that I would eventually like my own area (multiple stores). When I go into an interview and the other person is obviously not qualified, I tend to step up my language and knowledge. Now, I got my first management job by getting a manager demoted and I took over (without asking for extra money, seeing the bigger picture), and I did a fantastic job. But that is one of my faults. *my gosh, I feel like an asshole just saying this*

437 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:25:59am

re: #436 Cannadian Club Akbar

He said "what are you looking for". I said: Director of Operations (a Florida only company). But the guy was the DoO.

You have to be more vague while still sounding ambitious
("I think after being with the company awhile with my skill set I could fill a position with more responsibility should one become available"),,, OR (",,,, AS they become available")


my gosh, I feel like an asshole just saying this

You didn't need to say that. We would have!!!

438 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:27:53am

re: #437 sattv4u2


He said "what are you looking for". I said: Director of Operations (a Florida only company). But the guy was the DoO.

You have to be more vague while still sounding ambitious
("I think after being with the company awhile with my skill set I could fill a position with more responsibility should one become available")

my gosh, I feel like an asshole just saying this

You didn't need to say that. We would have!!!

I did tell him, "Let me get my foot in the door. I'll take care of it from there".

439 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:30:33am

re: #438 Cannadian Club Akbar

I did tell him, "Let me get my foot in the door. I'll take care of it from there".

What he heard

"Let me get my foot up your ass,,,"

440 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:30:44am

Bah!! Thanks all. I'll figure it out.

441 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:32:18am

re: #380 Our Precious Bodily Fluids

What was an elephant doing in your pajamas?

At that moment? Being shot.

442 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:32:32am

re: #440 Cannadian Club Akbar

Bah!! Thanks all. I'll figure it out.

I must be missing something

Why can't you interview without jeopardizing your current job ? (maybe you can, but it sounds as if you're worried about it)

443 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:32:53am

re: #439 sattv4u2

What he heard

"Let me get my foot up your ass,,,"

What he should have heard. "My God, you're an idiot. Good thing you were here from day one. You're gonna have 7 places on the West side of Florida and only one on the East coast? How you gonna watch that one"?

444 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:33:48am
445 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:34:29am

re: #444 Gus

[Embedded content]

I'll make sure to wear my formal condoms!!

446 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:34:33am

re: #442 sattv4u2

I must be missing something

Why can't you interview without jeopardizing your current job ? (maybe you can, but it sounds as if you're worried about it)

Because of the hours I was thrust into this week. Don't want to show up tired. Need to be sharp. And even better than that. I prefer to overwhelm.

447 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:35:35am

re: #446 Cannadian Club Akbar

Because of the hours I was thrust into this week. Don't want to show up tired. Need to be sharp. And even better than that. I prefer to overwhelm.

OHH!!!!

Whens the job fair/ interview?
What hours do you work prior/ after?

Any time for a power nap??

448 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:36:55am

re: #444 Gus

[Embedded content]

*headdesk*

Now I feel like even more of an idiot, spending so much of the first decade of this century arguing that "if you have nothing to hide, then you've no reason to worry."

449 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:37:22am

re: #447 sattv4u2

OHH!!!!

Whens the job fair/ interview?
What hours do you work prior/ after?

Any time for a power nap??

Work tonight 11PM-7AM then Thursday (interview) 5AM-11 or 12. Interview at 1:30.

450 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:38:23am

re: #449 Cannadian Club Akbar

Work tonight 11PM-7AM then Thursday (interview) 5AM-11 or 12. Interview at 1:30.

POWER
NAP

(say, 7:30-9:30 ish)

451 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:40:47am

re: #450 sattv4u2

POWER
NAP

(say, 7:30-9:30 ish)

Get home Wednesday at 7AM, sleep from 12-3 then try to go back to sleep at 10-4. This might work. I'll call the guy.

452 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:43:56am

re: #448 Targetpractice

*headdesk*

Now I feel like even more of an idiot, spending so much of the first decade of this century arguing that "if you have nothing to hide, then you've no reason to worry."

You know I was just thinking about all of that. As we slowly see our liberties erode away in the name of "safety and security." To "fight Islamic extremism" because "they hate are freedum and whey of life." Inch by inch.

453 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:46:06am

Speaking of naps

And on that note, the long quiet drive home beckons (followed not by a nap, but a full out GoodNight Sleepy Time)

454 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:46:19am

I see Libya is falling apart.

455 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:47:41am


456 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:51:30am

re: #449 Cannadian Club Akbar

Work tonight 11PM-7AM then Thursday (interview) 5AM-11 or 12. Interview at 1:30.

See how much a limo or taxi van to the interview location would cost. You could sleep on the way.

(Not the best of ideas, but I'm trying)

457 sattv4u2  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:52:25am

re: #454 Gus

I see Libya is falling apart.

Elections civil wars have consequences

458 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:54:51am

Well, this is depressing:

Judge Blocks California Ban On Gay Conversion Therapy

A federal judge on Monday temporarily blocked California's ban on therapy that aims to convert minors from gay to straight, the LA Times reports:

U.S. District Judge William Shubb ruled that the new law, SB 1172, signed by Gov. Jerry Brown earlier this year, may inhibit the 1st Amendment rights of therapists who oppose homosexuality. The judge signed a temporary injunction that prohibits the state from enforcing the ban, the first of its kind in the nation, against the three plaintiffs in the suit pending trial.

459 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:55:04am

re: #456 Dark_Falcon

See how much a limo or taxi van to the interview location would cost. You could sleep on the way.

(Not the best of ideas, but I'm trying)

I'm gonna call in a few minutes. I am quite funny when I'm have sleep deprivation.:) See you guys in a bit....

460 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:55:08am

re: #455 Gus

[Embedded content]

The militias stayed together in too many cases because young men had come to enjoy having serious firepower at their disposal, not having to work, and being able to do and take what they wanted. And sadly, what some young men who have been badly socialized want to do is to oppress and abuse women.

461 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:57:36am

re: #458 Targetpractice

Well, this is depressing:

Judge Blocks California Ban On Gay Conversion Therapy

The law may pose a 1st Amendment question, and that needs to be adjudicated. Don't yield to despair, though: It's got a decent chance, given how federal courts generally feel about the welfare of minors.

462 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:59:47am

re: #457 sattv4u2

Elections civil wars have consequences

They need a security force to combat, repel, and extinguish the militias. The misogyny on the other hand will take years to resolve since it is deeply entrenched in their sexually homocentric culture.

463 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:02:28am

re: #458 Targetpractice

Well, this is depressing:

Judge Blocks California Ban On Gay Conversion Therapy

I should move to California and open up a psychic transmission repair shop.

//

464 darthstar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:02:45am

Mornin' everyone. Looks like the GOP is running out of willing newscasters to let them spew nonsense without question...

465 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:05:16am

Homeopathic gasoline. A gallon of gasoline mixed in with 25,000 gallons dihydrogen monoxide.

466 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:07:20am

re: #464 darthstar

Mornin' everyone. Looks like the GOP is running out of willing newscasters to let them spew nonsense without question...

[Embedded content]

The GOP really do seem convinced that they've got some sort of leverage here, don't they? They're making all sorts of demands, whether it be SS, Medicare/Medicaid, or Obamacare. And they think there's nothing they have to offer in return.

467 darthstar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:09:00am

re: #466 Targetpractice

The GOP really do seem convinced that they've got some sort of leverage here, don't they? They're making all sorts of demands, whether it be SS, Medicare/Medicaid, or Obamacare. And they think there's nothing they have to offer in return.

Nah...they're just acting like they have leverage in the hopes that President Obama will buy it. The Obama administration is "hitting back" by simply saying, "Give us your details." They can't. They don't have anything. Posturing was their plan all along.

468 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:09:14am

re: #464 darthstar

Mornin' everyone. Looks like the GOP is running out of willing newscasters to let them spew nonsense without question...

[Embedded content]

I like the way our congress leaves less than 60 days to fix this mess. Probably close to 5 to 6 weeks most of which have already passed. Seriously?

469 darthstar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:10:22am

re: #468 Gus

I like the way our congress leaves less than 60 days to fix this mess. Probably close to 5 to 6 weeks most of which have already passed. Seriously?

There's no mess to fix. The debt deadline is in March. These are just taxes, and can be remedied in January.

470 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:12:01am

re: #469 darthstar

There's no mess to fix. The debt deadline is in March. These are just taxes, and can be remedied in January.

They could be remedied today, but the GOP feels that it would rather sit on making the cuts for 98% of Americans permanent that allow Obama any sort of "victory" out of this.

471 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:12:29am

re: #469 darthstar

There's no mess to fix. The debt deadline is in March. These are just taxes, and can be remedied in January.

Well, I think it's a mess and not just about taxes.

472 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:13:34am

re: #462 Gus

They need a security force to combat, repel, and extinguish the militias. The misogyny on the other hand will take years to resolve since it is deeply entrenched in their sexually homocentric culture.

The problem with security is more culture, and the fact that the men you'd need to recruit already have guns and don't relish what it would take to turn them into soldiers. That last is understandable, since it would require they be humiliated in various ways by their trainers. This is a needed thing in military training, because there are things a recruit must unlearn and because a young man with any spirit has to be humiliated before he can be controlled. This doesn't need to take the form of abuse, but it does need to be made clear to the recruits that what they thought they know about fighting and combat was wrong and that those who are going train them know better.

473 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:13:57am

re: #467 darthstar

Nah...they're just acting like they have leverage in the hopes that President Obama will buy it. The Obama administration is "hitting back" by simply saying, "Give us your details." They can't. They don't have anything. Posturing was their plan all along.

Pretty much. They expected that the election would result in one of two outcomes: They'd sweep the Senate and White House, leaving in a position to push through painful concessions from Democrats just to avoid even more painful ones when the GOP took over. Or they'd at least take the Senate and leave Obama with no room to maneuver.

474 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:14:11am

re: #468 Gus

Well, Congress (the House especially) didn't want to touch it with an election approaching, so they decided to punt the issue to the lame duck session. Happens all the time, but with an issue this important, the delay can and will roil markets and inject uncertainty into the process that adds to the volatility.

The lame duck session also has to deal with the #Sandy funding requests, which might get rolled into the tax reform measure or treated as a separate issue. I suspect that the two will get combined - in part to gain political points for forcing a no vote on recovery aid. It's something we've seen before when unrelated items get tacked on to a controversial measure to get a yes vote or to force a side into a no vote they otherwise wouldn't want to take.

475 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:15:03am

re: #470 Targetpractice

They could be remedied today, but the GOP feels that it would rather sit on making the cuts for 98% of Americans permanent that allow Obama any sort of "victory" out of this.

It's a matter of leverage. Pass those cuts now, and Obama might feel he can simply live with the rest of the sequester. Better to keep the whole thing.

476 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:15:46am

re: #474 lawhawk

Well, Congress (the House especially) didn't want to touch it with an election approaching, so they decided to punt the issue to the lame duck session. Happens all the time, but with an issue this important, the delay can and will roil markets and inject uncertainty into the process that adds to the volatility.

The lame duck session also has to deal with the #Sandy funding requests, which might get rolled into the tax reform measure or treated as a separate issue. I suspect that the two will get combined - in part to gain political points for forcing a no vote on recovery aid. It's something we've seen before when unrelated items get tacked on to a controversial measure to get a yes vote or to force a side into a no vote they otherwise wouldn't want to take.

Yeah, and the 2014 election is coming up soon. At best we'll get one more year of governance and then they're back on the campaign trail. Then, 2016. We basically govern this country once every other year.

477 darthstar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:16:27am

Maybe there's hope for the GOP...Senator DeMint?

Oh, fuck it...these guys are all fucked in the head.

478 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:17:32am

I hereby declare December 4th, National Stainless Steel Washer Manufacturing Day.
-- Congressman X

479 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:17:34am

re: #475 Dark_Falcon

It's a matter of leverage. Pass those cuts now, and Obama might feel he can simply live with the rest of the sequester. Better to keep the whole thing.

It's a matter of the Republicans having no leverage whatsoever, which is the present situation.

480 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:18:20am

Commemorative dates and naming post offices. Congress is like the air force.

481 Sionainn  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:19:05am

re: #458 Targetpractice

Well, this is depressing:

Judge Blocks California Ban On Gay Conversion Therapy

What?!? If the APA says that it is harmful to patients, then that should trump therapists' rights to harm their patients.

482 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:19:06am

re: #469 darthstar

And the President can rightfully argue that it was agreed upon by everyone (both houses of Congress and the President) that the rates for everyone would expire after 12/31/12 - now let's talk about a new tax bracket system using not the 2001/2003/2009 rates (top bracket 35%) but the pre-2001 rates, which had the top rate of 39.6%. It would allow a reset of the tax argument.

That's likely the logic behind allowing the rates to reset. The GOP may complain that the rates should go down for everyone, but most Americans find that they're okay letting the tax rate rise for the top tax bracket.

But as it stands now, the GOP has got everyone working from their preferred bracket numbers - including the media. That's given the GOP leverage they wouldn't otherwise have, and it's not much as it is since the main beneficiaries of their current stance on tax policy are those who are in a position to afford any tax rate changes.

483 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:20:27am

re: #474 lawhawk

Well, Congress (the House especially) didn't want to touch it with an election approaching, so they decided to punt the issue to the lame duck session. Happens all the time, but with an issue this important, the delay can and will roil markets and inject uncertainty into the process that adds to the volatility.

The lame duck session also has to deal with the #Sandy funding requests, which might get rolled into the tax reform measure or treated as a separate issue. I suspect that the two will get combined - in part to gain political points for forcing a no vote on recovery aid. It's something we've seen before when unrelated items get tacked on to a controversial measure to get a yes vote or to force a side into a no vote they otherwise wouldn't want to take.

House Speaker: "I move that we evacuate Springfield in the great state of.."

Congressman: "Wait a minute Mr. Speaker, I have a rider attached to this bill: $12 million for the Profane Arts."

House Speaker: "Any second for the combined evacuation/Profane Arts bill?"

[crickets]

House Speaker: "Motion not carried!" [bangs gavel]

Kent Brockman (in the studio): I've said it before and I'll say it again: Democracy doesn't work.

/Simpsons

484 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:23:08am

re: #477 darthstar

Maybe there's hope for the GOP...Senator DeMint?

[Embedded content]

Oh, fuck it...these guys are all fucked in the head.

Boehner and Corker want to get a bill passed and are willing to concede some things to gain passage. DeMint is being a my-way-or-the-highway purist, as usual.

485 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:24:28am

re: #484 Dark_Falcon

Boehner and Corker want to get a bill passed and are willing to concede some things to gain passage. DeMint is being a my-way-or-the-highway purist, as usual.

What have they conceded? Seriously?

486 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:24:31am

What we need is another aircraft carrier and rebuild 1000s of stick framed homes on barrier islands.

//

487 darthstar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:26:27am

re: #484 Dark_Falcon

Boehner and Corker want to get a bill passed and are willing to concede some things to gain passage. DeMint is being a my-way-or-the-highway purist, as usual.

Jim DeMint is Boehner's 'leverage.'

488 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:26:54am

re: #487 darthstar

Jim DeMint is Boehner's 'leverage.'

489 darthstar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:27:48am
490 darthstar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:29:57am

re: #488 Gus

"Boehner's tax hike budget" - Now we know why Boehner can't negotiate with Obama. One step in that direction will cost him his gavel in the TPGOP. Sorry orange bastard is fucked.

491 darthstar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:30:36am

gotta run the dogs....bbl.

492 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:30:54am

re: #481 Sionainn

What?!? If the APA says that it is harmful to patients, then that should trump therapists' rights to harm their patients.

Humbug, I say it is time to get out the leeches. COMMENCE THE BLOOD LETTING!

//

493 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:31:30am


Interesting that he says "tougher." Thus acknowledging already that it will be tough. I foresee big problems with the individual mandate.

494 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:34:14am

re: #493 Gus

My insurance is going up 600.00/yr for 2013

495 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:34:53am

re: #494 A Man for all Seasons

My insurance is going up 600.00/yr for 2013

But the politicians said it was supposed to go down!

//

496 Sionainn  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:39:03am

re: #492 Eventual Carrion

Humbug, I say it is time to get out the leeches. COMMENCE THE BLOOD LETTING!

//

Leeches are still used for certain things in today's medicine.

497 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:41:32am

re: #495 Gus

But the politicians said it was supposed to go down!

//

It always seems to go up. It's a great plan though, We are given free benefits also, Stuff like ID theft protection and legal help

498 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:42:36am

re: #497 A Man for all Seasons

It always seems to go up. It's a great plan though, We are given free benefits also, Stuff like ID theft protection and legal help

Of course. Everything always goes up; nothing comes down.

499 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:44:10am

Yikes. These videos on MSNBC Today. I'm gonna go hide under my bed. There are scary things around me and in mah food!

500 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:46:12am

The Fark headline about the GOP's "counteroffer" says it all:

Republican budget counter-proposal calls for spending decreases of $4.6 trillion over 10 years by dipping into the magic bean reserve

501 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:52:23am

re: #500 Targetpractice

The Fark headline about the GOP's "counteroffer" says it all:

They would say that. But it does increase revenues and is thus something of a risk. I really wish I had hidden camera footage of Grover Norquist's initial reaction. I picture his role in these negotiations to be that of Mongo:

502 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:52:54am

re: #501 Dark_Falcon

They would say that. But it does increase revenues and is thus something of a risk. I really wish I had hidden camera footage of Grover Norquist's initial reaction. I picture his role in these negotiations to be that of Mongo:

[Embedded content]

How does it increase revenues?

503 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:54:30am

re: #465 Gus

Homeopathic gasoline. A gallon of gasoline mixed in with 25,000 gallons dihydrogen monoxide.

Sounds like a gallon of river water out of the Cuyahoga in the 1960s.
//

504 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:54:32am

Everybody wants it their way. No compromise. My way or hit the highway. Hoodwink; counter hoodwink. Politicians are speaking. Look out.

505 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:56:21am

re: #502 Targetpractice

How does it increase revenues?

It would eliminate or reduce loopholes and deductions.

506 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:57:20am

re: #505 Dark_Falcon

It would eliminate or reduce loopholes and deductions.

Can you name any of them?

507 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 7:58:49am

re: #505 Dark_Falcon

The GOP proposal indeed claims that they would close loopholes and eliminate deductions - except that they haven't actually stated what any of them would be. That's left to imagination, and there's no way to tell, let alone score, that kind of proposal without them getting into specifics.

508 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:00:25am

re: #507 lawhawk

The GOP proposal indeed claims that they would close loopholes and eliminate deductions - except that they haven't actually stated what any of them would be. That's left to imagination, and there's no way to tell, let alone score, that kind of proposal without them getting into specifics.

It's the Romney/Ryan Plan again: Propose cutting tax rates and then making the whole thing produce increased revenue through "tax reform," then shrug when questioned about specifics that it's "something that will have to be worked out." Even Boehner's "counteroffer" says that the tax loopholes and deductions will have to be worked out after the deal's been made.

509 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:03:47am

re: #508 Targetpractice

It's the Romney/Ryan Plan again: Propose cutting tax rates and then making the whole thing produce increased revenue through "tax reform," then shrug when questioned about specifics that it's "something that will have to be worked out." Even Boehner's "counteroffer" says that the tax loopholes and deductions will have to be worked out after the deal's been made.

In other words - make a deal where the House gets to decide what actually gets implemented; e.g. keeping the high-end tax cuts and somehow delaying or forgetting to select loopholes or deductions to take away until the 2014 election is done. And the House has given no indication in the past years that they will actually follow through with their promises. Look how well that "Super Committee" worked out.

510 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:03:50am

re: #494 A Man for all Seasons

My insurance is going up 600.00/yr for 2013

Mine has gone up every year for the last 7 years.

511 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:04:53am

re: #505 Dark_Falcon

It would eliminate or reduce loopholes and deductions.

As Targetpractice said, how so? The plan as stated is reminiscent of the claims of the Ryan plan: vague handwaves of category that on scrutiny don't stand up.

What loopholes? What deductions? Don't just hand-wave, point to what you're changing that'll bring in that much money.

512 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:05:27am

re: #507 lawhawk

The GOP proposal indeed claims that they would close loopholes and eliminate deductions - except that they haven't actually stated what any of them would be. That's left to imagination, and there's no way to tell, let alone score, that kind of proposal without them getting into specifics.

Neither did Obama state any of the savings his plan conatins, save only to say they "would be negotiated next year" which is Washingtonese for "Monday come never in a wheelbarrow".

513 blueraven  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:10:28am

re: #512 Dark_Falcon

Well, the tax cuts are going to expire at the end of the year so the republicans are screwed if they dont start facing the facts.

They want all the revenue to come from the old, the disabled and the poor. I really have a hard time understanding why they would fall on the sword for the top 2%.

514 blueraven  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:13:10am

re: #512 Dark_Falcon

Neither did Obama state any of the savings his plan conatins, save only to say they "would be negotiated next year" which is Washingtonese for "Monday come never in a wheelbarrow".

And oh yeah...didn't Obama find 716 billion in medicare savings?
How did that work out in the last campaign?
Romney/Ryan said they would return that money to medicare and beat him up over it.

515 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:13:25am

re: #512 Dark_Falcon

Neither did Obama state any of the savings his plan conatins, save only to say they "would be negotiated next year" which is Washingtonese for "Monday come never in a wheelbarrow".

Cuts to be made:

Tax preferences for high-income households
Special tax breaks for oil and gas companies
Loopholes for investment fund managers
Benefits for corporate jet owner

The tax cut for single, unmarried taxpayers earning over $200,000 per year
The tax cut for married couples making more than $250,000 per year.

Closing a loophole that allows companies to shelter revenue overseas to remain exempt from taxation.


There are a few. What specifically are the repubs targeting?

516 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:13:46am

re: #512 Dark_Falcon

Neither did Obama state any of the savings his plan conatins, save only to say they "would be negotiated next year" which is Washingtonese for "Monday come never in a wheelbarrow".

Is your memory that short? The fact the Republicans leaked the offer was mentioned here on LGF. A summary of the details:

Taxes

◾Immediate increase in both top marginal rates, as well as capital gains and dividends: +$960 Billion
◾Additional taxes: +$600 Billion
◾2009-level estate tax
◾AMT and business tax extenders: -$236 Billion
◾Payroll tax extension or alternative policy: -$110B
◾Bonus depreciation extension

Spending/Extras

◾$50 billion stimulus package in FY13
◾Mass refi mortgage proposal
◾Deferral of sequester
◾Savings from non-entitlement mandatory programs
◾Extension of unemployment insurance: $30 billion
◾Medicare SGR Patch: $25 Billion
◾Increase in the debt limit to avoid requiring Congress to vote to increase

517 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:14:48am

re: #512 Dark_Falcon

Neither did Obama state any of the savings his plan conatins, save only to say they "would be negotiated next year" which is Washingtonese for "Monday come never in a wheelbarrow".

What spending cuts are in Boehner's plan?

518 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:17:35am

re: #516 kirkspencer

Is your memory that short? The fact the Republicans leaked the offer was mentioned here on LGF. A summary of the details:

I see. Your recap doesn't cover the non-entitlement mandatory programs savings. Doesn't matter, though, since like Boehner I'd prefer the sequester to voting for that.

519 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:21:31am
520 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:22:20am
521 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:23:34am

Philippines typhoon 'kills dozens'
More than 40 people have been killed after a powerful typhoon swept across the southern Philippines, according to local media reports.

522 kirkspencer  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:24:33am

re: #518 Dark_Falcon

I see. Your recap doesn't cover the non-entitlement mandatory programs savings. Doesn't matter, though, since like Boehner I'd prefer the sequester to voting for that.

Reread my post. That's the fourth item under "Spending/extras".

I know you wouldn't vote for it, but that's not the problem. The problem is that you keep saying things that are not true - that Obama hasn't done detail, that he didn't mention non-entitlement mandatory savings, that sort of thing. It makes it difficult to believe you are actually doing anything but regurgitating talking points.

523 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:30:32am

What, precisely, is the R plan?

524 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:32:00am

Must be a slow news day:

Zimmerman's lawyers release bloody nose photo

(CBS) -- The defense team for George Zimmerman, charged with killing unarmed black teen Trayvon Martin in February, released a color photo of Zimmerman with a bloody nose.

Zimmerman's lawyers say the photo was taken by a police officer on February 26, the night 17-year-old Martin was shot and killed nearby his father's home in Sanford, Fla. The 29-year-old has pleaded not guilty to the second-degree murder charges and was released from Seminole County Jail on $1 million bond in July.

The photo was published on GZlegalcase.com, a website created by Zimmerman and his defense attorneys. Although the same picture was made public earlier this year as black-and-white photocopy, this high-resolution version comes shortly after the same website announced a "thank you" card defense fund to raise money for Zimmerman.

Lawyers on both sides of the case disagree on the picture's significance.

525 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:36:29am

Moron.

Kazakhstan

526 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:38:33am

re: #524 Targetpractice

Must be a slow news day:

Zimmerman's lawyers release bloody nose photo

I've seen worse looking wounds from a school yard brawl.

527 lawhawk  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:41:00am
528 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:41:11am

re: #526 Eventual Carrion

I've seen worse looking wounds from a school yard brawl.

Yeah, but it's best to remember that swelling and bruising, especially for a broken nose, can take hours to really become apparent.

529 Varek Raith  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:41:17am

Man, if I had a nickle for everyone I shot because of a bloody nose....
/

530 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:42:42am

re: #529 Varek Raith

Man, if I had a nickle for everyone I shot because of a bloody nose....
/

Wheres the picture of the bullet hole in Trayvon Martin?

531 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:42:57am

re: #529 Varek Raith

Man, if I had a nickle for everyone I shot because of a bloody nose....
/

If had one for every time I went looking for a fight...

532 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:44:32am

re: #528 Targetpractice

Yeah, but it's best to remember that swelling and bruising, especially for a broken nose, can take hours to really become apparent.

He is lucky he was fucking with a kid. As for me. If I were fighting some asshole with a gun for my life and close enough to give him a bloody nose, I would have had his eyeballs in the palm of my hands when the police showed up. That would show up even in a black and white photo.

533 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:46:13am

re: #532 Eventual Carrion

He is lucky he was fucking with a kid. As for me. If I were fighting some asshole with a gun for my life and close enough to give him a bloody nose, I would have had his eyeballs in the palm of my hands when the police showed up. That would show up even in a black and white photo.

Fighting for his life?

534 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:51:13am

re: #533 Targetpractice

Fighting for his life?

Did Zimmerman not say in a statement that Martin saw the gun? A strange person coming menacingly at you at night, possessing a gun, wouldn't give you the impression that you were in danger of ultimate physical harm?

535 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:52:00am

Cheerful thoughts. Good thing I was already watching a Tiger mauling someone on Liveleak.

//

536 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:52:36am

re: #534 Eventual Carrion

Did Zimmerman not say in a statement that Martin saw the gun? A strange person coming menacingly at you at night, possessing a gun, wouldn't give you the impression that you were in danger of ultimate physical harm?

Indeed he did say that Martin saw his gun...after he was already on the ground and getting his head beat in.

537 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:53:43am

re: #536 Targetpractice

Indeed he did say that Martin saw his gun...after he was already on the ground and getting his head beat in fighting for his life.

FTFY

/

538 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:55:56am

re: #536 Targetpractice

Indeed he did say that Martin saw his gun...after he was already on the ground and getting his head beat in.

Right, that is his story. Do we have a good shot of the blood and mayhem to the back of his skull from this alleged pounding on the ground/cement? Or was this bloody nose caused by this, so Martin was on his back? So Zimm's jacket somehow opened 180 degrees to reveal the gun?

539 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:57:43am

re: #538 Eventual Carrion

Right, that is his story. Do we have a good shot of the blood and mayhem to the back of his skull from this alleged pounding on the ground/cement? Or was this bloody nose caused by this, so Martin was on his back? So Zimm's jacket somehow opened 180 degrees to reveal the gun?

What evidence is there that Zimmerman was atop Martin during the fight?

540 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 8:58:57am

re: #377 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Lol at North Korea.

Look at the picture of the rock at the article, it looks like it was just carved yesterday...what a bunch of phonies.

The Beloved People's Democratic Press Release Extra!!!

Dear Leader Kim Jong Un has just been revealed as the creator of the previously reported "Unicorn Lair" stone found near Wey Too Gho.
Beloved Leader Kim carved the lettering using a sand wedge from 25 meters as he precisely chipped the letters away, obviously following in his Beloved Dear Predecessor Father's illuminated footsteps while proving that the inherited Great Leadership genes will truly remain solely with the Beloved First Family throughout the ages.

541 EmmaAnne  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:00:36am

re: #444 Gus

The recording was done by an undercover officer who was invited into the home as a prospective buyer. He already could have recorded the conversation without the owners permission. This case just says he can record video as well.

542 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:01:26am

re: #539 Targetpractice

What evidence is there that Zimmerman was atop Martin during the fight?

Maybe my wording was bad on that one. "so Martin was on his back?" should be "so Martin was on Zimm's back?". Confusing use of the pronoun. Making Simm's face towards the ground to make the broken nose. Or if Martin was on Zimm's chest as was supposedly reported, I don't know how many fights you have been in but when I have ever been on top of someone punching them in the face in that position, their head hits the ground ever time I plant the heel of my palm against their face.

543 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:03:15am

re: #542 Eventual Carrion

Maybe my wording was bad on that one. "so Martin was on his back?" should be "so Martin was on Zimm's back?". Confusing use of the pronoun. Making Simm's face towards the ground to make the broken nose. Of it Martin was on Zimm's chest as was supposedly reported, I don't know how many fights you have been in but when I have ever been on top of someone punching them in the face in that position, their head hits the ground ever time I plant the heel of my palm against their face.

The composition of the ground has a part in it as well. They were in the grass, during a rain storm. IIRC, the only time that they were on concrete was early in the tussle.

544 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:04:26am

re: #543 Targetpractice

Mr Self Appointed Patrolman GZ had absolutely nothing by way of a Security shirt or jacket or badge right? Not a thing? Not even the usual flashlight. That is menacing as hell. And why with just a very few exceptions everyone on any kind of patrol looks like it by way of clear markings. CCW is about discreet carry with anything but patrolling as your reason to be there.

The argument who punched or assaulted first is splitting hairs in any moral sense. But that's not the legal standard is it? (real question there) Perhaps in the end the jury will have to decide if Trayvon used enough force on GZ to merit lethal force with the gun.

545 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:05:33am

It doesn't matter.

Zimmerman confronted Martin. They got into a fight. Martin seemed to be getting the better of Zimmerman. Zimmerman shot him.

546 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:07:49am

re: #544 Political Atheist

Mr Self Appointed Patrolman GZ had absolutely nothing by way of a Security shirt or jacket or badge right? Not a thing? Not even the usual flashlight. That is menacing as hell. And why with just a very few exceptions everyone on any kind of patrol looks like it by way of clear markings. CCW is about discreet carry with anything but patrolling as your reason to be there.

The argument who punched or assaulted first is splitting hairs in any moral sense. But that's not the legal standard is it? (real question there) Perhaps in the end the jury will have to decide if Trayvon used enough force on GZ to merit lethal force with the gun.

The argument is pretty vital to the determining of whether it was self-defense or not. Absent an 11th hour revelation that there was video or another eyewitness to the initial violence, then it comes down to what the jury believes began the whole sequence of events.

547 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:07:55am

re: #543 Targetpractice

The composition of the ground has a part in it as well. They were in the grass, during a rain storm. IIRC, the only time that they were on concrete was early in the tussle.

This will have to wait for another time since I have to get back to work from lunch. I will have time to reacquaint myself with the statements and observations of the scene in question. I seem to remember Zimm saying Martin beating his head against the concrete walkway, but I have no time right now to look that one up. Maybe during a lengthy test run this afternoon I will have that time. TTYL

548 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:08:15am

re: #545 Henchman Ghazi-808

It doesn't matter.

Zimmerman confronted Martin. They got into a fight. Martin seemed to be getting the better of Zimmerman. Zimmerman shot him.

Can you prove the bolded?

549 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:09:17am

re: #542 Eventual Carrion

Maybe my wording was bad on that one. "so Martin was on his back?" should be "so Martin was on Zimm's back?". Confusing use of the pronoun. Making Simm's face towards the ground to make the broken nose. Or if Martin was on Zimm's chest as was supposedly reported, I don't know how many fights you have been in but when I have ever been on top of someone punching them in the face in that position, their head hits the ground ever time I plant the heel of my palm against their face.

Pseudonyms are great aren't they?
You get to admit to something like that, anonymously.

550 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:09:31am

re: #548 Targetpractice

Can you prove the bolded?

For lack of (surviving) witnesses, we have only the forensics and GZ's word according to the law.

551 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:10:57am

re: #550 Sol Berdinowitz

For lack of (surviving) witnesses, we have only the forensics and GZ's word according to the law.

Exactly my point. As of right now, no witness has come forward to say who confronted who and the evidence remains ambiguous. Prosecution's going to attack Zimmerman's credibility, defense is going to attack Martin's.

552 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:11:54am

re: #545 Henchman Ghazi-808

It doesn't matter.

Zimmerman confronted Martin. They got into a fight. Martin seemed to be getting the better of Zimmerman. Zimmerman shot him.

It likely does matter. The core of Zimmerman's defense is that when he shot Martin he was in reasonable fear that Martin was going to either kill him or inflict grievous bodily harm upon him. If he can show that he was injured by Martin, then that increases the credibility of his defense.

553 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:11:56am

re: #548 Targetpractice

Can you prove the bolded?

Zimmerman put himself at the scene.

How relevant is it that Zimmerman said something to Martin first or Martin said something to Zimmerman first?

554 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:12:35am

re: #553 Henchman Ghazi-808

Zimmerman put himself at the scene.

How relevant is it that Zimmerman said something to Martin first or Martin said something to Zimmerman first?

Pretty relevant if you're painting a scenario where Martin was the aggressor.

555 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:13:34am

re: #552 Dark_Falcon

It likely does matter. The core of Zimmerman's defense is that when he shot Martin he was in reasonable fear that Martin was going to either kill him or inflict grievous bodily harm upon him. If he can show that he was injured by Martin, then that increases the credibility of his defense.

He won't be able to escape the fact that he put himself in that position and is responsible for the outcome.

556 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:14:45am

re: #555 Henchman Ghazi-808

There might be a legal split with the morality of it though. Could boil down to case law precedent by way of jury instructions.

557 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:15:05am

re: #554 Targetpractice

Pretty relevant if you're painting a scenario where Martin was the aggressor.

Who followed who again?

Not to mention, Martin has every right to stand his ground. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

558 KingKenrod  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:16:14am

I don't think the particulars of the Zimmerman case are that important - we will likely never know the real truth. What is important is that Florida law encourages risky behavior by shielding gun carriers from repercussions of reckless or poor decisions.

559 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:16:24am

re: #555 Henchman Ghazi-808

He won't be able to escape the fact that he put himself in that position and is responsible for the outcome.

If you get mugged in the middle of the night, fight back and kill your aggressor, do you believe that you should be tried for second degree murder on the grounds that by walking out at night, you put yourself in that situation?

560 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:16:56am

re: #555 Henchman Ghazi-808

He won't be able to escape the fact that he put himself in that position and is responsible for the outcome.

That only flies so far...
There are (mostly corrupt) 3rd world countries where foreign taxi passengers are held responsible for damages in case of traffic accident, because the taxi wouldn't have been right there/right then had the passenger not hired the trip.
Other examples of similar logic abound.

561 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:17:14am

re: #555 Henchman Ghazi-808

He won't be able to escape the fact that he put himself in that position and is responsible for the outcome.

Answer from defense counsel: "The position he put himself in was a homeowner checking into someone he founds suspicious following a rash of burglaries. While doing so, he was attacked and fearing for his life defended himself with lethal force."

562 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:18:18am

re: #557 Henchman Ghazi-808

Who followed who again?

Not to mention, Martin has every right to stand his ground. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Why would Martin need to stand his ground if he could have just kept running to his house?

563 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:21:08am

re: #558 KingKenrod

I don't think the particulars of the Zimmerman case are that important - we will likely never know the real truth. What is important is that Florida law encourages risky behavior by shielding gun carriers from repercussions of reckless or poor decisions.

The laws don't seem to be shielding G. Zimmerman...

564 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:21:13am

re: #559 Targetpractice

If you get mugged in the middle of the night, fight back and kill your aggressor, do you believe that you should be tried for second degree murder on the grounds that by walking out at night, you put yourself in that situation?

Not the same thing. What BP is referring to is the exception to self-defense that is activated if the defendant is shown to have been "looking for trouble". If you are walking home from a late movie and are mugged, you weren't trying to start something, you were just going home. If you fought off the mugger without killing him, but then chased him into an abandoned building and killed him there, that would be murder.

565 gwangung  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:22:03am

re: #562 Targetpractice

Why would Martin need to stand his ground if he could have just kept running to his house?

If Zimmerman was in the path to Martin's home. That's a plausible interpretation of events.

566 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:23:16am

re: #562 Targetpractice

Why would Martin need to stand his ground if he could have just kept running to his house?

Neither needed a reason to stand fast. Florida has no "duty to retreat" if you are somewhere you were lawfully permitted to be, which was true for both of them.

567 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:23:30am

re: #565 gwangung

If Zimmerman was in the path to Martin's home. That's a plausible interpretation of events.

It's speculation, absent any corroborating evidence.

568 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:25:07am

re: #566 Dark_Falcon

Neither needed a reason to stand fast. Florida has no "duty to retreat" if you are somewhere you were lawfully permitted to be, which was true for both of them.

Agreed, except the scenario painted for Zimmerman's guilt is that he chased down Martin. Yet, nothing corroborates that. If anything, the available evidence says that Martin got away from Zimmerman, who gave up the chase.

569 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:26:07am

There's going to be a trial, you know.

Evidence will get presented.

570 KingKenrod  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:26:26am

re: #563 Capitalist Tool

The laws don't seem to be shielding G. Zimmerman...

We'll see. The law is giving Zimmerman an excellent defense. And there's not much question in my mind that Zimmerman was on the fast track to being no billed until the public outcry started.

571 palomino  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:27:18am

re: #559 Targetpractice

If you get mugged in the middle of the night, fight back and kill your aggressor, do you believe that you should be tried for second degree murder on the grounds that by walking out at night, you put yourself in that situation?

That mischaracterizes what happened. Zim got out of his truck with a loaded gun while pursuing someone for no legitimate reason. That's hardly the same as just being "mugged at night." Bottom line: Reasonable, sane people don't play pretend cop, and they sure as hell don't do what Zim did. If he'd stayed in his car, or not followed a non-suspect, we wouldn't be having this debate.

This doesn't necessarily make him guilty of 2nd degree murder. But it makes him a sorry excuse for a human being, as well as a perfect example of what's wrong with America's gun culture.

572 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:27:53am

[Link: xkcd.com...]

573 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:27:53am

re: #569 Obdicut

There's going to be a trial, you know.

Evidence will get presented.

The prosecution's evidence has been presented, with the few exceptions. If there was anything of a truly damning nature, they can't keep it secret due to Florida sunshine laws.

574 gwangung  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:29:09am

re: #567 Targetpractice

It's speculation, absent any corroborating evidence.

The evidence I've seen is that Martin cut behind the back of houses, in an effort to lose Zimmerman, which he did. They met in the parkway between houses where Zimmerman seemed to have blocked Martin's way.

575 Lidane  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:29:09am

The next round of the GOP civil war has begun:

576 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:29:20am

re: #570 KingKenrod

We'll see. The law is giving Zimmerman an excellent defense. And there's not much question in my mind that Zimmerman was on the fast track to being no billed until the public outcry started.

That seems to be the case, so could the prosecution of Zimmerman then be said to be somewhat political?

577 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:29:25am

re: #569 Obdicut

There's going to be a trial, you know.

Evidence will get presented.

No way. I thought it was going to get decided here.

//

579 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:30:16am

re: #574 gwangung

The evidence I've seen is that Martin cut behind the back of houses, in an effort to lose Zimmerman, which he did. They met in the parkway between houses where Zimmerman seemed to have blocked Martin's way.

If he lost Zimmerman, then how was Zimmerman able to block his way?

580 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:30:38am

re: #575 Lidane

The next round of the GOP civil war has begun:

[Embedded content]

LOL @ Persecution Fantasy.

581 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:31:37am

re: #580 Dark_Falcon

LOL @ Persecution Fantasy.

They actually "demoted" him.

582 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:31:51am

re: #573 Targetpractice

A lot of the case against Zimmerman is the inconsistencies in his story, though, so the defense case is pretty important. Zimmerman's statements so far haven't added up to a coherent narrative. Cross-examination is a pretty important part of a trial.

And nothing would have happened if he hadn't decided to Rambo up and chase around the scary black kid.

583 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:31:53am

re: #548 Targetpractice

Can you prove the bolded?

Um... why else did Zimmerman get out of his truck? To check his tire pressure? Seriously?

So, you're a teenager walking along in a neighborhood you have every right to be in... and some guy is following you in an SUV... gets out and asks what you're doing there... Don't you think Martin was afraid for his safety? Doesn't he have the right to defend himself?

584 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:32:25am

re: #571 palomino

That mischaracterizes what happened. Zim got out of his truck with a loaded gun while pursuing someone for no legitimate reason. That's hardly the same as just being "mugged at night." Bottom line: Reasonable, sane people don't play pretend cop, and they sure as hell don't do what Zim did. If he'd stayed in his car, or not followed a non-suspect, we wouldn't be having this debate.

This doesn't necessarily make him guilty of 2nd degree murder. But it makes him a sorry excuse for a human being, as well as a perfect example of what's wrong with America's gun culture.

Getting out of his truck was not a crime. In fact, it can't be proven that he was involved in any crime prior to the fight beginning.

585 Lidane  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:33:14am

The Doughy Pantload continues being a tool:

586 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:33:32am

re: #583 efuseakay

Um... why else did Zimmerman get out of his truck? To check his tire pressure? Seriously?

So, you're a teenager walking along in a neighborhood you have every right to be in... and some guy is following you in an SUV... gets out and asks what you're doing there... Don't you think Martin was afraid for his safety? Doesn't he have the right to defend himself?

Can you prove that it was Zimmerman who confronted Martin?

587 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:33:37am

re: #559 Targetpractice

If you get mugged in the middle of the night, fight back and kill your aggressor, do you believe that you should be tried for second degree murder on the grounds that by walking out at night, you put yourself in that situation?

Zimmerman was not mugged in the middle of the night. By his own admission he was following Martin.

This logic is specious.

588 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:33:42am

re: #571 palomino

That mischaracterizes what happened. Zim got out of his truck with a loaded gun while pursuing someone for no legitimate reason. That's hardly the same as just being "mugged at night." Bottom line: Reasonable, sane people don't play pretend cop, and they sure as hell don't do what Zim did. If he'd stayed in his car, or not followed a non-suspect, we wouldn't be having this debate.

This doesn't necessarily make him guilty of 2nd degree murder. But it makes him a sorry excuse for a human being, as well as a perfect example of what's wrong with America's gun culture.

Several points...
Zimmerman had a reason, given recent area crimes. Zimmerman quit following Martin when told to do so by the dispatcher. Martin then stalked Zimmerman and initiated the conflict.
By your logic, if Martin hadn't tracked Zimmerman, we wouldn't be having this debate.

589 TedStriker  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:34:10am

re: #584 Targetpractice

Getting out of his truck was not a crime. In fact, it can't be proven that he was involved in any crime prior to the fight beginning.

Neither was Martin walking home from the 7-11 with an Arizona Iced Tea and a bag of Skittles.

590 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:34:36am

re: #582 Obdicut

A lot of the case against Zimmerman is the inconsistencies in his story, though, so the defense case is pretty important. Zimmerman's statements so far haven't added up to a coherent narrative. Cross-examination is a pretty important part of a trial.

And nothing would have happened if he hadn't decided to Rambo up and chase around the scary black kid.

And nothing would have happened had Martin not doubled back to confront Zimmerman.

591 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:35:16am

re: #579 Targetpractice

If he lost Zimmerman, then how was Zimmerman able to block his way?

Um... Zimmerman found him. It was a gated community.

592 darthstar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:35:26am

re: #586 Targetpractice

Can you prove that it was Zimmerman who confronted Martin?

Zimmerman is on tape saying he is following(persuing) Martin over the objections of the 911 operator. That would indicate he was initiating contact (i.e. confronting).

593 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:35:55am

re: #586 Targetpractice

Can you prove that it was Zimmerman who confronted Martin?

Wow... Why did Zimmerman get out of his truck? To not confront Martin?

594 darthstar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:36:04am

re: #590 Targetpractice

And nothing would have happened had Martin not doubled back to confront Zimmerman.

If by 'double-back' you mean he turned to say, "Why are you following me?"

595 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:36:06am

re: #562 Targetpractice

Why would Martin need to stand his ground if he could have just kept running to his house?

The same could be said of Zimmerman.

596 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:36:08am
597 palomino  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:36:09am

re: #584 Targetpractice

Getting out of his truck was not a crime. In fact, it can't be proven that he was involved in any crime prior to the fight beginning.

So you see nothing wrong from a standpoint of common sense and rational thinking in Zim's actions? Would you (or any sane person you know) follow a person for no legit reason and then get out of their car with a gun to "investigate?"

598 Lidane  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:36:15am

re: #581 Gus

They actually "demoted" him.

[Embedded content]

Related:

599 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:36:29am

re: #592 darthstar

Zimmerman is on tape saying he is following(persuing) Martin over the objections of the 911 operator. That would indicate he was initiating contact (i.e. confronting).

Pursued, not apprehended. On the call, he also stated he'd given up the chase and was checking for a street sign. If he'd managed to chase down Martin while on the call, wouldn't that be...you know..on the call?

600 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:37:12am

re: #594 darthstar

If by 'double-back' you mean he turned to say, "Why are you following me?"

Can you prove that?

601 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:37:13am

re: #598 Lidane

Related:

[Embedded content]

Yep. Saw that there were at least two.

602 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:37:36am

re: #584 Targetpractice

Getting out of his truck was not a crime. In fact, it can't be proven that he was involved in any crime prior to the fight beginning.

But Martin walking in a neighborhood he had every right to be in was a crime?

603 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:37:48am

re: #597 palomino

So you see nothing wrong from a standpoint of common sense and rational thinking in Zim's actions? Would you (or any sane person you know) follow a person for no legit reason and then get out of their car with a gun to "investigate?"

I see it as overzealous, not criminal.

604 CarleeCork  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:37:54am

re: #584 Targetpractice

Getting out of his truck was not a crime. In fact, it can't be proven that he was involved in any crime prior to the fight beginning.

I believe police dispatch told him to stay in his vehicle. Z also claimed Martin tried to get the gun, yet Martin's DNA was not found on the weapon.

605 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:38:58am

re: #603 Targetpractice

I see it as overzealous, not criminal.

Overzealous... killing an unarmed kid for minding his own business?

606 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:39:11am

re: #604 CarleeCork

I believe police dispatch told him to stay in his vehicle. Z also claimed Martin tried to get the gun, yet Martin's DNA was not found on the weapon.

He also said he used one hand to grab the hand Martin was using to go for the gun, while using his other to unholster the gun. He didn't say Martin got a hold of the gun.

607 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:39:31am

re: #605 efuseakay

Overzealous... killing an unarmed kid for minding his own business?

An unarmed kid trying to beat his head in. You're trying to skip events.

608 darthstar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:39:38am

re: #600 Targetpractice

Can you prove that?

I can prove that Trayvon Martin is dead, that he was carrying a can of Arizona Ice Tea and a bag of Skittles, and that he wasn't armed.

Why are you defending Zimmerman? Can't we just let a jury decide to acquit him and accept it as part of the American way?

609 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:39:44am

Martin doubling back (if it happened at all) to confront Zimmerman is a continuance of a confrontation initiated. It's not an act in and of itself.

That's parsing.

610 Lidane  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:39:46am
611 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:40:03am

re: #581 Gus

They actually "demoted" him.

[Embedded content]

Yes, for being a wingnut who refused to consider any options at all to increase revenues. He was told that wasn't acceptable for committee chairmen but refused to accept it. So he got his gavel taken away. His mood:

612 TedStriker  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:40:46am

re: #597 palomino

So you see nothing wrong from a standpoint of common sense and rational thinking in Zim's actions? Would you (or any sane person you know) follow a person for no legit reason and then get out of their car with a gun to "investigate?"

There would have been absolutely no valid reason for Zimmerman to have continued to follow Martin after he was advised to stop by the 911 dispatcher and no valid reason for Zimmerman to have gotten out of his vehicle with his sidearm, unless it was to confront and start some shit.

Zimmerman was and is a private citizen, despite hanging the "neighborhood watch" label on himself; he had absolutely no police powers and no valid reason to do what he did.

613 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:41:04am

re: #590 Targetpractice

And nothing would have happened had Martin not doubled back to confront Zimmerman.

Wow... Martin was just tying to get to his dad's girlfriend's house after going to the store. Yet somehow, he's at fault for what happened, and Zimmerman isn't to blame?

Nothing would have happened had Zimmerman obeyed the dispatcher's orders to not follow Martin.

It's called Neighborhood WATCH for a reason.

614 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:41:28am

re: #609 Henchman Ghazi-808

Martin doubling back (if it happened at all) to confront Zimmerman is a continuance of a confrontation initiated. It's not an act in and of itself.

That's parsing.

Indeed it is, and a rather poor attempt at it. Saying that getting out of his truck qualifies as a confrontation is an obvious effort to relieve Martin of any responsibility for his actions.

615 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:42:05am

re: #613 efuseakay

Wow... Martin was just tying to get to his dad's girlfriend's house after going to the store. Yet somehow, he's at fault for what happened, and Zimmerman isn't to blame?

Nothing would have happened had Zimmerman obeyed the dispatcher's orders to not follow Martin.

It's called Neighborhood WATCH for a reason.

And had Martin kept running home, nothing would have happened.

616 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:42:06am

re: #585 Lidane

The Doughy Pantload continues being a tool:

[Embedded content]

Blaming the minorities themselves for not supporting Republicans. Again. Couldn't be the racist Republican policies. Nope.

617 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:42:16am

re: #607 Targetpractice

An unarmed kid trying to beat his head in. You're trying to skip events.

Pot. Kettle. It was Zimmerman who instigated this whole mess. Unless you're somehow trying to say that Martin pulled Zimmerman out of a moving SUV.

618 palomino  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:42:31am

re: #588 Capitalist Tool

Several points...
Zimmerman had a reason, given recent area crimes. Zimmerman quit following Martin when told to do so by the dispatcher. Martin then stalked Zimmerman and initiated the conflict.
By your logic, if Martin hadn't tracked Zimmerman, we wouldn't be having this debate.

Martin "stalked" Zimmerman? Do you have proof of that?

So Zimmerman is the victim here?

So what if there's crime in his area? Following unarmed people and then getting out of you car to "investigate" is not the action of a sane rational person.

I live in L.A. There's a lot of crime in certain parts of town. I don't go there at night and then follow unarmed people while carrying a gun. I used to live in one of those areas, near USC, and I didn't do that back in those days either. Why not? Because, like Zim, I'm not a fucking cop and I don't have delusions of being a renegade crime fighter.

619 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:42:57am

re: #617 efuseakay

Pot. Kettle. It was Zimmerman who instigated this whole mess. Unless you're somehow trying to say that Martin pulled Zimmerman out of a moving SUV.

I'm saying that Zimmerman had ceased pursuit and was going back to his truck. There was no reason for Martin to turn around and confront him.

620 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:43:22am

Folks, we really don't have enough information here to figure out what happened. Much is disputed in the Zimmerman case, and we will need to wait at least until the Stand Your Ground hearing to hear the opposing narratives presented. I suggest that none of us make any final judgements until that time.

621 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:43:32am

re: #615 Targetpractice

And had Martin kept running home, nothing would have happened.

Again. He was on his way home... until Zimmerman confronted him. Why else would Martin try to lose him in the neighborhood?

622 TedStriker  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:43:39am

re: #599 Targetpractice

Pursued, not apprehended. On the call, he also stated he'd given up the chase and was checking for a street sign. If he'd managed to chase down Martin while on the call, wouldn't that be...you know..on the call?

Yeah, that "explanation" seemed to be too convenient to explain why he got out of his vehicle, after he was advised by 911 to terminate his "pursuit", especially when Zimmerman lived in that same subdivision.

623 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:43:55am

re: #614 Targetpractice

Indeed it is, and a rather poor attempt at it. Saying that getting out of his truck qualifies as a confrontation is an obvious effort to relieve Martin of any responsibility for his actions.

Zimmerman was following him, then got out of his truck. That's a confrontation.

As for relieving Martin for any of his actions, did he break any laws or deserve to get shot?

Did Zimmerman break any laws or does he deserve to be set free?

624 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:44:09am

re: #615 Targetpractice

And had Martin kept running home, nothing would have happened.

But again, the law did not require him to run.

625 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:44:09am
626 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:44:28am

re: #619 Targetpractice

I'm saying that Zimmerman had ceased pursuit and was going back to his truck. There was no reason for Martin to turn around and confront him.

There was no reason for Zimmerman to pursue in the first place.

Speaking of "skipping events"...

627 darthstar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:45:23am

re: #607 Targetpractice

An unarmed kid trying to beat his head in. You're trying to skip events.

How close was Trayvon to Zimmerman when he pulled the trigger? Close enough for powder burns? Three feet? Six feet? Was he pounding on Zimmerman when he went for his gun? My guess is he thumped on Zimmerman a couple of times to say "leave me the fuck alone" and after he got up Zimmerman pulled his gun and shot him. And my guess is every bit as valid as yours.

628 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:45:28am

re: #626 efuseakay

There was no reason for Zimmerman to pursue in the first place.

Yes there was: Martin was Walking While Black and Looking Suspicious.

629 Lidane  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:45:48am

re: #625 Gus

Gotta love that compassionate conservatism.

630 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:45:57am

re: #624 Dark_Falcon

But again, the law did not require him to run.

Martin was obviously afraid for his safety. Wouldn't you be if some SUV was following you through a neighborhood? I know I would be.

631 Sionainn  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:46:07am

re: #539 Targetpractice

What evidence is there that Zimmerman was atop Martin during the fight?

If Martin was on top of Zimmerman, how come Zimmerman isn't covered in Martin's blood after shooting him?

632 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:46:23am

re: #627 darthstar

How close was Trayvon to Zimmerman when he pulled the trigger? Close enough for powder burns? Three feet? Six feet? Was he pounding on Zimmerman when he went for his gun? My guess is he thumped on Zimmerman a couple of times to say "leave me the fuck alone" and after he got up Zimmerman pulled his gun and shot him. And my guess is every bit as valid as yours.

Thumped a few times? Broken nose and scalp lacerations comes from "a few times"?

633 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:46:25am

re: #628 Henchman Ghazi-808

Yes there was: he was Walking While Black and Looking Suspicious.

Pretty much. Don't forget the hoodie!!!!! He was obviously a criminal!!!!!!!

634 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:47:00am

re: #632 Targetpractice

Thumped a few times? Broken nose and scalp lacerations comes from "a few times"?

Compared to being murdered. Yeah. I'd take a broken nose and scalp lacerations over death any day.

635 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:47:28am

re: #631 Sionainn

If Martin was on top of Zimmerman, how come Zimmerman isn't covered in Martin's blood after shooting him?

"CAN YOU PROVE IT?"

That seems to be his response to everything.

636 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:47:50am

re: #634 efuseakay

Compared to being murdered. Yeah. I'd take a broken nose and scalp lacerations over death any day.

That came before the shot. You have reason to believe Martin would have stopped at just a few blows if not shot?

637 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:48:59am

re: #631 Sionainn

If Martin was on top of Zimmerman, how come Zimmerman isn't covered in Martin's blood after shooting him?

Covered in blood? How much blood do you think is expelled from a gunshot?

638 darthstar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:49:12am

re: #632 Targetpractice

Thumped a few times? Broken nose and scalp lacerations comes from "a few times"?

Yep. I've seen a lot of fist fights. People get bruised and have their noses broken. It happens when someone takes a clenched fist and slams it into the nose of the other person. That's why I avoided fights like the plague. I like my nose.

639 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:49:47am

re: #636 Targetpractice

That came before the shot. You have reason to believe Martin would have stopped at just a few blows if not shot?

I have every reason to believe this would have never happened had Zimmerman listened to the dispatcher in the first place.

It's even stated in the local neighborhood watch manual that they are not to approach/confront anyone.

Sequence of events!!! ///

640 Sionainn  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:50:16am

re: #635 efuseakay

"CAN YOU PROVE IT?"

That seems to be his response to everything.

Didn't Zimmerman state that Martin was on top of him when Zimmerman shot him? I find it amazing that there doesn't seem to be a drop of Martin's blood on Zimmerman in any of the photos we've seen, but we are supposed to believe Zimmerman's version of what happened. Yeah, right.

641 Sionainn  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:50:44am

re: #637 Targetpractice

Covered in blood? How much blood do you think is expelled from a gunshot?

More than none.

642 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:50:53am

Justice for Zimmerman!

643 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:51:14am

re: #639 efuseakay

I have every reason to believe this would have never happened had Zimmerman listened to the dispatcher in the first place.

It's even stated in the local neighborhood watch manual that they are not to approach/confront anyone.

And you're probably right, this wouldn't happened. But it did, so now we have to deal with whether a crime has been committed or not.

644 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:51:17am

Zimmerghazigate!!!!!

645 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:52:01am

re: #643 Targetpractice

And you're probably right, this wouldn't happened. But it did, so now we have to deal with whether a crime has been committed or not.

re: #643 Targetpractice

And you're probably right, this wouldn't happened. But it did, so now we have to deal with whether a crime has been committed or not.

An innocent unarmed kid is dead. Of course a crime was committed.

646 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:52:41am

re: #645 efuseakay

re: #643 Targetpractice

An innocent unarmed kid is dead. Of course a crime was committed.

Innocent has yet to be determined. And being unarmed doesn't mean you can't kill someone.

647 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:53:23am

re: #646 Targetpractice

Innocent has yet to be determined. And being unarmed doesn't mean you can't kill someone.

What crime was he committing that required Zimmerman to confront him?

Skipping events!

648 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:53:53am

re: #647 efuseakay

What crime was he committing that required Zimmerman to confront him?

What crime was Zimmerman committing?

649 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:55:08am

re: #646 Targetpractice

Interested to know what crime you speculate Martin has committed.

But we'll have to take it up some other time as I have a plane to catch.

650 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:55:23am

re: #648 Targetpractice

What crime was Zimmerman committing?

Again... what crime was Martin committing that made Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch member, confront him?

651 Lidane  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:55:48am

Somewhere out there, Varek is not amused:

Heh.

652 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:56:28am

re: #650 efuseakay

Again... what crime was Martin committing that made Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch member, confront him?

Based on available evidence, none. And yes, I think Zimmerman's testimony that Martin was giving him all sorts of dirty looks and walking around his truck to be embellishing on his part.

653 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:56:46am

re: #648 Targetpractice

What crime was Zimmerman committing?

He was arrested for 2nd degree murder. It may get plead down to Manslaughter.

The problem is if Zimmerman invokes Stand, so can Martin.

654 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:56:53am

re: #651 Lidane

Somewhere out there, Varek is not amused:

[Embedded content]

Heh.

Depends, can a Death Star be used to kill terrorist?

655 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:57:02am

re: #651 Lidane

Somewhere out there, Varek is not amused:

[Embedded content]

Heh.

Heh Reagan was the one with Star Wars fantasies not Obama, silly wingnuts.

656 TedStriker  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:57:08am

re: #625 Gus

[Embedded content]

Republicans: Throwbacks who would fuck over the disabled, just to please their anti-UN Bircher base.

Fuck them.

657 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:57:17am

re: #651 Lidane

Somewhere out there, Varek is not amused:

Heh.

The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Tea Party!

658 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:57:52am

re: #653 Henchman Ghazi-808

He was arrested for 2nd degree murder. It may get plead down to Manslaughter.

The problem is if Zimmerman invokes Stand, so can Martin.

He was arrested for 2nd degree only because that's the highest that he could be charged with without taking this to a grand jury, which would probably have laughed off the evidence so far presented.

659 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:58:15am

As I said yesterday though about Santorum, this madness can get you second place in the Republican Party in 2012. And I think Santorum could do well if he ran again.

660 gwangung  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:58:24am

re: #590 Targetpractice

And nothing would have happened had Martin not doubled back to confront Zimmerman.

There is no evidence of this. In fact, the evidence lies the other way.

661 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 9:59:39am

re: #658 Targetpractice

He was arrested for 2nd degree only because that's the highest that he could be charged with without taking this to a grand jury, which would probably have laughed off the evidence so far presented.

I'm sure being the son of ex-judge had no bearing on this whatsoever. Zimmerman has an arrest record. Martin didn't.

662 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:00:12am

re: #590 Targetpractice

And nothing would have happened had Martin not doubled back to confront Zimmerman.

"Can you prove it?"

663 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:00:23am

re: #660 gwangung

There is no evidence of this. In fact, the evidence lies the other way.

I've not seen evidence as to who confronted who. So far, the only witnesses to that event are the two in the confrontation. Or rather, the one who's still above room temp.

664 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:01:00am

re: #661 efuseakay

I'm sure being the son of ex-judge had no bearing on this whatsoever. Zimmerman has an arrest record. Martin didn't.

Uh, no, he doesn't. That got expunged, remember? As part of a plea bargain.

665 gwangung  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:01:37am

re: #663 Targetpractice

I've not seen evidence as to who confronted who. So far, the only witnesses to that event are the two in the confrontation. Or rather, the one who's still above room temp.

Then don't claim Martin doubled back.

666 TedStriker  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:02:08am

re: #660 gwangung

There is no evidence of this. In fact, the evidence lies the other way.

You're not gonna change TP's mind, because to them, Zimmerman did absolutely nothing wrong.

It was Martin's fault for walking home from the 7-11 that night, it was Martin's fault for not effectively ditching Zimmerman as Zimmerman was pursuing him, and it was Martin's fault that Zimmerman shot him.

Any questions?

667 palomino  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:02:10am

No offense to anyone, but I find the zealous defense of Zim disturbing on a moral level. The man pursued an unarmed person--first in his car--for no reason except except his own self-constructed delusion that the kid was a threat. This is the action of a deranged self-appointed fake cop, a very dangerous person. The kind of person who creates situations where people needlessly die. Not someone whose actions should be defended.

668 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:02:22am

re: #665 gwangung

Then don't claim Martin doubled back.

I'll continue to do so until I see evidence to the contrary.

669 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:02:25am
670 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:02:43am

re: #664 Targetpractice

Uh, no, he doesn't. That got expunged, remember? As part of a plea bargain.

Why bargain if you're not guilty?

671 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:02:58am

re: #666 TedStriker

You're not gonna change TP's mind, because to them, Zimmerman did absolutely nothing wrong.

It was Martin's fault for walking home from the 7-11 that night, it was Martin's fault for not effectively ditching Zimmerman as Zimmerman was pursuing him, and it was Martin's fault that Zimmerman shot him.

Any questions?

I admitted Zimmerman was overzealous, he was stupid to get out of his truck. But stupidity's not a crime, lest we all be behind bars.

672 CarleeCork  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:03:17am

re: #658 Targetpractice

He was arrested for 2nd degree only because that's the highest that he could be charged with without taking this to a grand jury, which would probably have laughed off the evidence so far presented.

That's a shitty thing to say, a teenager is dead because of a cowardly cop wannabe. Yeah, Zimmerman is a coward.

673 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:03:37am

re: #670 efuseakay

Why bargain if you're not guilty?

Do you know what he was charged with?

674 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:03:40am

re: #656 TedStriker

Republicans: Throwbacks who would fuck over the disabled, just to please their anti-UN Bircher base.

Fuck them.

With 38 Republicans casting "no" votes, the 61-38 vote fell five short of the two-thirds majority needed to ratify a treaty. The vote took place in an unusually solemn atmosphere, with senators sitting at their desks rather than milling around the podium. Former Senate Majority Leader Bob Dole, looking frail and in a wheelchair, was in the chamber to support the treaty.

Read more: [Link: www.timesunion.com...]

675 palomino  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:03:54am

re: #648 Targetpractice

What crime was Zimmerman committing?

In Florida, probably none. In the civilized world, stalking, reckless endangerment, etc.

676 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:04:06am

re: #672 CarleeCork

That's a shitty thing to say, a teenager is dead because of a cowardly cop wannabe. Yeah, Zimmerman is a coward.

You know many cowards who run towards a fight?

677 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:04:10am

re: #663 Targetpractice

I've not seen evidence as to who confronted who. So far, the only witnesses to that event are the two in the confrontation. Or rather, the one who's still above room temp.

Why did Zimmerman get out of his car?

678 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:04:46am

re: #673 Targetpractice

Do you know what he was charged with?

Again... again... again... why bargain if you're not guilty? Answer the question.

679 gwangung  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:04:58am

re: #668 Targetpractice

I'll continue to do so until I see evidence to the contrary.

A little hypocritical, I'd say.

680 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:05:14am

re: #676 Targetpractice

You know many cowards who run towards a fight?

I know how many cowards kill unarmed teenagers minding their own business.

681 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:05:18am

re: #677 efuseakay

Why did Zimmerman get out of his car?

For all I know, he was trying to ask Martin what he was doing in the neighborhood.

682 gwangung  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:05:42am

re: #671 Targetpractice

I admitted Zimmerman was overzealous, he was stupid to get out of his truck. But stupidity's not a crime, lest we all be behind bars.

Actually, stupidity can be depraved indifference or reckless endangerment, which actually ARE crimes.

683 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:06:14am

re: #678 efuseakay

Again... again... again... why bargain if you're not guilty? Answer the question.

He was guilty of assaulting an undercover cop who was in the middle of arresting his friend. He entered a plea bargain because he didn't want the arrests to bar him from joining the police force.

684 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:06:22am

re: #618 palomino

Martin "stalked" Zimmerman? Do you have proof of that?

So Zimmerman is the victim here?...

Do you have proof Martin didn't double back to confront Zimmerman (per Z.'s statements to police?)

You brought up Zimmerman as victim.
If events transpired as per Zimmerman's sworn statements to police, then what?

685 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:06:27am

re: #681 Targetpractice

For all I know, he was trying to ask Martin what he was doing in the neighborhood.

So you admit Zimmerman confronted Martin. Glad that's settled.

686 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:06:44am

re: #682 gwangung

Actually, stupidity can be depraved indifference or reckless endangerment, which actually ARE crimes.

Agreed, but they're not 2nd degree murder.

687 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:06:53am

June 21, 1012 New York Times

Zimmerman's statements to police on tape.

" The man was pummeling him, slamming his head repeatedly into the pavement so it “felt like my head was going to explode,” Mr. Zimmerman told the police in newly released tapes. "

“He put his hand on my nose and on my mouth and he says, ‘You’re going to die tonight,’ ” Mr. Zimmerman told investigators on Feb. 26, the night he struggled with and killed Trayvon Martin. “I couldn’t breathe, and he still kept trying to hit my head against the pavement.”

“I felt his hand go down on my side, and I thought he was going for my firearm,” Mr. Zimmerman said. “So I grabbed it immediately, and as he banged my head again, I just pulled out my firearm and shot him.”

688 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:07:31am

re: #685 efuseakay

So you admit Zimmerman confronted Martin. Glad that's settled.

He was chasing him down the intent to confront him, yes. He failed, per his testimony.

689 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:07:37am

re: #684 Capitalist Tool

Do you have proof Martin didn't double back to confront Zimmerman (per Z.'s statements to police?)

You brought up Zimmerman as victim.
If events transpired as per Zimmerman's sworn statements to police, then what?

Even if Martin did double back, so? Should he have been killed for it? This was all instigated by wannabe cop Zimmerman.

690 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:08:16am

re: #689 efuseakay

Even if Martin did double back, so? Should he have been killed for it? This was all instigated by wannabe cop Zimmerman.

Why would he double back if he was in fear for his life? Why confront the armed guy if you think he intends to harm you?

691 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:09:21am

re: #688 Targetpractice

He was chasing him down the intent to confront him, yes. He failed, per his testimony.

So all your previous chest-beating about "Prove Zimmerman confronted Martin!!!" was just that? Really?

692 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:09:51am

re: #690 Targetpractice

Why would he double back if he was in fear for his life? Why confront the armed guy if you think he intends to harm you?

Prove Martin confronted Zimmerman.

693 BongCrodny  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:10:13am

re: #687 Eventual Carrion

June 21, 1012 New York Times

Zimmerman's statements to police on tape.

" The man was pummeling him, slamming his head repeatedly into the pavement so it “felt like my head was going to explode,” Mr. Zimmerman told the police in newly released tapes. "

“He put his hand on my nose and on my mouth and he says, ‘You’re going to die tonight,’ ” Mr. Zimmerman told investigators on Feb. 26, the night he struggled with and killed Trayvon Martin. “I couldn’t breathe, and he still kept trying to hit my head against the pavement.”

“I felt his hand go down on my side, and I thought he was going for my firearm,” Mr. Zimmerman said. “So I grabbed it immediately, and as he banged my head again, I just pulled out my firearm and shot him.”

If I was on top of somebody banging their head on the pavement, I'd be using both hands.

So we're to assume Martin was banging Zimmerman's head with one hand while he went for the gun with the other?

Seems a bit of a stretch to me.

694 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:10:14am

re: #691 efuseakay

So all your previous chest-beating about "Prove Zimmerman confronted Martin!!!" was just that? Really?

There's a difference between intent to confrontation and confronted. Or at least that's what I've been trying to argue. You seem convinced that just getting out of his truck automatically qualifies as a confrontation.

695 CarleeCork  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:10:19am

re: #690 Targetpractice

Why would he double back if he was in fear for his life? Why confront the armed guy if you think he intends to harm you?

The "armed guy" should have stayed in his car.

696 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:10:32am

re: #692 efuseakay

Prove Martin confronted Zimmerman.

Zimmerman's testimony.

697 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:10:45am

re: #689 efuseakay

Even if Martin did double back, so? Should he have been killed for it? This was all instigated by wannabe cop Zimmerman.

That's completely facile and disingenuous... your claim is that Martin was killed because he doubled back?

698 TedStriker  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:11:12am

re: #687 Eventual Carrion

June 21, 1012 New York Times

Zimmerman's statements to police on tape.

" The man was pummeling him, slamming his head repeatedly into the pavement so it “felt like my head was going to explode,” Mr. Zimmerman told the police in newly released tapes. "

“He put his hand on my nose and on my mouth and he says, ‘You’re going to die tonight,’ ” Mr. Zimmerman told investigators on Feb. 26, the night he struggled with and killed Trayvon Martin. “I couldn’t breathe, and he still kept trying to hit my head against the pavement.”

“I felt his hand go down on my side, and I thought he was going for my firearm,” Mr. Zimmerman said. “So I grabbed it immediately, and as he banged my head again, I just pulled out my firearm and shot him.”

It's much easier to get the cops and the DA's office to buy your version of events if the other person involved just happened to be dead by your hand.

699 palomino  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:11:13am

re: #684 Capitalist Tool

Do you have proof Martin didn't double back to confront Zimmerman (per Z.'s statements to police?)

You brought up Zimmerman as victim.
If events transpired as per Zimmerman's sworn statements to police, then what?

So you have no proof, and are essentially dodging the question.

I didn't bring up Zim as victim.

Carry on with your Zim lovefest. I find it depraved.

700 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:11:55am

re: #597 palomino

There are many unwise and provocative things people do that are legal. This is a legal question of guilt when we are talking trial right?

701 7-y (Expectation of Great Things in Due Course)  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:13:00am

re: #291 Romantic Heretic

Agree. Unarmed. I've had handguns pulled on me three times in my life. Each time I stood the coward with the metal penis down. Once was in his home. Once I hosed the coward with the metal penis down and his open convertible, with the water hose I happened to have in my hand. Third guy didn't know what to do when I didn't show fear. He just left;.

702 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:13:15am

re: #677 efuseakay

Why did Zimmerman get out of his car?

His statement was:

"At one point, Mr. Zimmerman mentions that he had received a diagnosis of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder as a child and takes 20 milligrams of Adderall twice a day. He cites his disorder as one reason he could not remember one of three major streets in his community when he called the police. "

New York Times


So, on drugs and armed. Can't remember main streets in his neighborhood that he supposedly patrols every night. But his recollection of events is golden.

703 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:13:24am

re: #694 Targetpractice

There's a difference between intent to confrontation and confronted. Or at least that's what I've been trying to argue. You seem convinced that just getting out of his truck automatically qualifies as a confrontation.

Ah... I see those goal posts have been relocated to the next town over. Nice playing with you.

Martin intended to just go back home to where his dad was. Too bad he wasn't allowed to.

704 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:13:56am

re: #697 Capitalist Tool

That's completely facile and disingenuous... your claim is that Martin was killed because he doubled back?

Target here, is saying that yes... because he doubled back, he and Zimmerman met face to face, and that is why he was killed.

705 palomino  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:14:00am

re: #690 Targetpractice

Why would he double back if he was in fear for his life? Why confront the armed guy if you think he intends to harm you?

Exactly, it's the fault of the unarmed teenager. Well done, sir, what a compelling argument...for lunatics to play cop and create situations where people needlessly die.

706 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:14:59am

re: #699 palomino

So you have no proof, and are essentially dodging the question.

I didn't bring up Zim as victim.

Carry on with your Zim lovefest. I find it depraved.

I gave the only proof that exists, one way or another, Zim's statement. How is that dodging the question?

Zim lovefest? LOLOLOLOL

I find that your attempt to convict Zimmerman, no matter what, is depraved.

707 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:15:49am

re: #696 Targetpractice

Zimmerman's testimony.

Oh... so we should take anyone's testimony as fact?

When do we get to hear the testimony of the other party involved?

708 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:16:43am

re: #703 efuseakay

Ah... I see those goal posts have been relocated to the next town over. Nice playing with you.

Martin intended to just go back home to where his dad was. Too bad he wasn't allowed to.

I have no clue what Martin intended once events began, because all I know about Travyon Martin comes from people who have every reason to cover for him.

709 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:17:19am

re: #707 efuseakay

Oh... so we should take anyone's testimony as fact?

When do we get to hear the testimony of the other party involved?

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

710 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:17:30am

re: #683 Targetpractice

He was guilty of assaulting an undercover cop who was in the middle of arresting his friend. He entered a plea bargain because he didn't want the arrests to bar him from joining the police force.

So he was actually guilty of assaulting an officer. Glad to know.

711 palomino  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:17:31am

re: #700 Political Atheist

There are many unwise and provocative things people do that are legal. This is a legal question of guilt when we are talking trial right?

That's only one element of the discussion here. Another is the moral context of Zim's actions and the way they created, unnecessarily, a dangerous situation. I find armed wannabe cops dangerous, immoral, and something to be strongly opposed.

712 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:18:01am

re: #709 Targetpractice

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Ask Martin. Oh wait... a verdict was forced on him not in a court of law, but on a sidewalk.

713 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:18:33am

re: #712 efuseakay

Ask Martin.

I would, but all I have to go on are the testimonials of people who wish to beautify him.

714 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:19:51am

re: #713 Targetpractice

I would, but all I have to go on are the testimonials of people who wish to beautify him.

It's a shame the only other witness was killed by the guy with everything to lose.

715 palomino  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:20:37am

re: #713 Targetpractice

I would, but all I have to go on are the testimonials of people who wish to beautify him.

Yeah, how dare people "beautify" the memory a teenager who got shot while walking home carrying Skittles.

716 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:21:34am

re: #715 palomino

Yeah, how dare people "beautify" the memory a teenager who got shot while walking home carrying Skittles.

Is that the whole truth of it?
No?
Then why bother?

717 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:21:45am

re: #714 efuseakay

It's a shame the only other witness was killed by the guy with everything to lose.

Indeed, a guy whose guilt seems to revolve around him not being seen as a nice guy.

718 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:22:19am

re: #716 Capitalist Tool

Is that the whole truth of it?
No?
Then why bother?

It would have been had Zimmerman not confronted Martin.

719 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:22:28am

re: #715 palomino

Yeah, how dare people "beautify" the memory a teenager who got shot while walking home carrying Skittles.

There was something between the walking and the shooting. But I'm sure that's inconvenient to the narrative, so please, do proceed.

720 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:22:50am

re: #694 Targetpractice

There's a difference between intent to confrontation and confronted. Or at least that's what I've been trying to argue. You seem convinced that just getting out of his truck automatically qualifies as a confrontation.

It's too bad your look at this is being taken as some loving respect for GZ rather than a clinical look at evidence

Too many are unwilling to bring any objective dispassion to Trayvons actions. It does not matter if Trayvon started a fistfight that scared GZ to the bone marrow because he got out of his truck. Since Trayvon died, he can not morally be thought or spoken as doing anything wrong at all, especially breaking GZ's nose.

Whether Fl law or the jury sees it like that remains to be seen. But many are so outraged at the death Trayvon gets a pass on his actions whatever they were. But a jury will likely have to consider matters unwelcome here today.

721 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:23:18am

re: #717 Targetpractice

Indeed, a guy whose guilt seems to revolve around him not being seen as a nice guy.

Not by me. I couldn't care if he was a saint. He was wrong to take the law into his own hands. That's why we have police.

722 palomino  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:24:27am

re: #716 Capitalist Tool

Is that the whole truth of it?
No?
Then why bother?

Why don't you give me the "whole truth" of it in a blog post?

Of course it's not the whole truth, but it's the bottom line.

If you want to defend a deranged sack of shit like Zim, knock yourself out. But maybe you should try to imagine your own 17-year old son walking home from 7/11 being followed for no reason. And the tragedy that ensued.

723 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:24:30am

re: #721 efuseakay

Not by me. I couldn't care if he was a saint. He was wrong to take the law into his own hands. That's why we have police.

He was wrong. But it does not constitute a crime.

724 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:25:12am

re: #719 Targetpractice

There was something between the walking and the shooting. But I'm sure that's inconvenient to the narrative, so please, do proceed.

Skipping events I see. You just can't accept that Zimmerman should have never gotten out of his truck to begin with, as per the directions of the dispatcher. He ultimately created this whole tragedy. He is the one ultimately responsible for what happened.

725 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:26:16am

re: #723 Targetpractice

He was wrong. But it does not constitute a crime.

No. But killing an unarmed kid walking through a neighborhood he had every right to be in sure as hell does.

726 palomino  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:26:35am

re: #719 Targetpractice

There was something between the walking and the shooting. But I'm sure that's inconvenient to the narrative, so please, do proceed.

As for the narrative, you've got your own clearly, so don't throw that accusation around.

Seriously, why do you feel the need to so zealously defend a guy like Zim? Why does he give you a hard-on?

727 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:26:39am

re: #713 Targetpractice

I would, but all I have to go on are the testimonials of people who wish to beautify him.

From a witness in the complex:

"The Seminole County Sheriff’s Department’s Computer Aided Dispatch shows that Zimmerman called police to report a suspicious person, then told them the subject was running from him. The exchange between the dispatcher and Zimmerman shows that he was advised not to continue to follow Martin. One witness interviewed said she saw one of the subjects chasing the other, but could not see who was who. A recording of a female identified as Martin’s longtime friend who was on the phone with him just before the shooting said he began to run when he realized Zimmerman was following him."

728 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:26:59am

re: #720 Political Atheist

It's too bad your look at this is being taken as some loving respect for GZ rather than a clinical look at evidence

Too many are unwilling to bring any objective dispassion to Trayvons actions. It does not matter if Trayvon started a fistfight that scared GZ to the bone marrow because he got out of his truck. Since Trayvon died, he can not morally be thought or spoken as doing anything wrong at all, especially breaking GZ's nose.

Whether Fl law or the jury sees it like that remains to be seen. But many are so outraged at the death Trayvon gets a pass on his actions whatever they were. But a jury will likely have to consider matters unwelcome here today.

Indeed, see also the outrage at the defense's efforts to get access to Trayvon's school records and other elements of his background. It's being characterized as "smearing," as an attempt by the defense to destroy him to protect Zimmerman. But if one wants to understand motivations and actions that evening, then understanding the participants is necessary. If you can't accept that Trayvon was not as pure as the driven snow, then the prosecution of George Zimmerman is little better than vigilante justice.

729 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:27:12am

re: #722 palomino

Why don't you give me the "whole truth" of it in a blog post?

Of course it's not the whole truth, but it's the bottom line.

If you want to defend a deranged sack of shit like Zim, knock yourself out. But maybe you should try to imagine your own 17-year old son walking home from 7/11 being followed for no reason. And the tragedy that ensued.

I don't know the whole truth of it and neither do you.

You appear to be bent on convicting Zimmerman, no matter what the truth is.

730 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:28:01am

re: #726 palomino

As for the narrative, you've got your own clearly, so don't throw that accusation around.

Seriously, why do you feel the need to so zealously defend a guy like Zim? Why does he give you a hard-on?

Because I've chosen to look at the evidence and divorce myself from the cult of Trayvon.

731 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:28:31am

re: #728 Targetpractice

Indeed, see also the outrage at the defense's efforts to get access to Trayvon's school records and other elements of his background. It's being characterized as "smearing," as an attempt by the defense to destroy him to protect Zimmerman. But if one wants to understand motivations and actions that evening, then understanding the participants is necessary. If you can't accept that Trayvon was not as pure as the driven snow, then the prosecution of George Zimmerman is little better than vigilante justice.

What significance do Martin's school records have to do with this case?

732 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:29:20am

re: #730 Targetpractice

Because I've chosen to look at the evidence and divorce myself from the cult of Trayvon.

Yet you're in a loving marriage with the cult of Zimm.

733 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:29:59am

re: #727 Eventual Carrion

From a witness in the complex:

"The Seminole County Sheriff’s Department’s Computer Aided Dispatch shows that Zimmerman called police to report a suspicious person, then told them the subject was running from him. The exchange between the dispatcher and Zimmerman shows that he was advised not to continue to follow Martin. One witness interviewed said she saw one of the subjects chasing the other, but could not see who was who. A recording of a female identified as Martin’s longtime friend who was on the phone with him just before the shooting said he began to run when he realized Zimmerman was following him."

A friend who's testimony is questionable, at best.

734 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:30:45am

re: #732 efuseakay

Yet you're in a loving marriage with the cult of Zimm.

Why is that? Because I'm not joining in the chorus to have him strung up for the high crime of stupidity?

735 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:31:41am

re: #728 Targetpractice

Indeed, see also the outrage at the defense's efforts to get access to Trayvon's school records and other elements of his background. It's being characterized as "smearing," as an attempt by the defense to destroy him to protect Zimmerman. But if one wants to understand motivations and actions that evening, then understanding the participants is necessary. If you can't accept that Trayvon was not as pure as the driven snow, then the prosecution of George Zimmerman is little better than vigilante justice.

And Zimmerman's actions have nothing to do with vigilante justice themselves?

Martin was surely no saint. But that's not illegal now, is it?

736 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:31:48am

re: #731 efuseakay

What significance do Martin's school records have to do with this case?

Plenty if you're trying to argue that your client was confronted and assaulted by a teenager with a history of violence.

737 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:31:57am

re: #733 Targetpractice

A friend who's testimony is questionable, at best.

Why's that? Just because she's a friend of Martin doesn't mean she's an unreliable witness. I am not going to pronounce Zimmerman either guilty or innocent here but a witness should only be seen as unreliable if they show themselves. Simply being a friend of the victim isn't cause to be.

738 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:32:03am

re: #730 Targetpractice

Because I've chosen to look at the evidence and divorce myself from the cult of Trayvon.

Then you will have to reevaluate your evidence. You stated earlier that you were under the impression that the head banging was on wet grass. Taped statements to police, Zimm said Martin was banging his [Zimm's] head on the concrete. One piece of evidence you knew that is directly contradicted by the assailant taped recollection.

739 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:32:14am

re: #735 efuseakay

And Zimmerman's actions have nothing to do with vigilante justice themselves?

Martin was surely no saint. But that's not illegal now, is it?

Assault & battery may very well have been.

740 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:32:39am

re: #733 Targetpractice

A friend who's testimony is questionable, at best.

Corroborated by a witness at the scene.

741 palomino  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:34:12am

re: #729 Capitalist Tool

I don't know the whole truth of it and neither do you.

You appear to be bent on convicting Zimmerman, no matter what the truth is.

No, you haven't paid attention to what I said. I'm not convinced he's guilty of 2nd degree murder, but probably a lesser crime instead. I'm speaking more about the rationality and morality of his actions.

My point is that people like Zim, with delusions of grandeur and pretending to be something they're not (a cop in this case) are dangerous. Even if not guilty of murder, his actions should be condemned. We don't need self-appointed Charles Bronsons.

742 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:34:14am

re: #732 efuseakay

Yet you're in a loving marriage with the cult of Zimm.

In a trial evidence and presentations will happen that support both sides. I just hope that discussion of evidence from both sides can happen without assumptions of support for GZ.

If I choose to discuss a certain point of evidence (like that bloody nose) and I see that as confirmation of part of GZ's story am I defending him? No, I'd be discussing evidence at hand. The take I get from Targetpractice is just that. Not a supporter of GZ apart from supporting a fair trial.

743 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:34:52am

re: #734 Targetpractice

Why is that? Because I'm not joining in the chorus to have him strung up for the high crime of stupidity?

You find every reason to blame Martin for his death at the hands of someone else, ignoring the very beginning of this whole thing, which was Zimmerman ignoring the police dispatcher, and getting out of his truck to begin with. Had that not happened, none of us would even know who these two people are.

744 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:35:10am

re: #737 HappyWarrior

Why's that? Just because she's a friend of Martin doesn't mean she's an unreliable witness. I am not going to pronounce Zimmerman either guilty or innocent here but a witness should only be seen as unreliable if they show themselves. Simply being a friend of the victim isn't cause to be.

She's an earwitness, one who seems to leave a lot of gaps in the testimony and was easily led by Crump during his interview of her. She said he told her he was close to home and not to worry, then there's gap, before she next says she heard him asking Zimmerman why he was following him. And she doesn't even say who started the fighting, only that she heard sound she interpreted as a scuffle, then the line went dead.

745 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:35:42am

re: #736 Targetpractice

Plenty if you're trying to argue that your client was confronted and assaulted by a teenager with a history of violence.

Funny. Zimmerman has a history of violence.

746 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:36:04am

re: #740 Eventual Carrion

Corroborated by a witness at the scene.

Who admits it was dark, she didn't have her glasses on, and couldn't be sure who was chasing who. She also said she had heard shouting prior to the chase, so for all she knew, it was Zimmerman trying to run after getting socked by Martin.

747 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:36:39am

re: #745 efuseakay

Funny. Zimmerman has a history of violence.

An actual criminal one at that. Really, if the defense wants to use Martin's school records as proof that he has a history of violence. Shouldn't Zimmerman's past and record be fair game as well?

748 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:36:43am

re: #745 efuseakay

Funny. Zimmerman has a history of violence.

Indeed, but the prosecution can't make much of that in trial because those records have been expunged.

749 palomino  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:36:52am

re: #730 Targetpractice

Because I've chosen to look at the evidence and divorce myself from the cult of Trayvon.

Yes, people who mourn the needless death of a Skittle armed teen are members of the "cult of Trayvon".

You've just disproven your own claim of objectively looking at only the evidence and not allowing biases to color your arguments. "Cult of Trayvon"...yeah, that's the real problem here, huh? What a load of hateful shit.

750 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:37:30am

re: #743 efuseakay

You find every reason to blame Martin for his death at the hands of someone else, ignoring the very beginning of this whole thing, which was Zimmerman ignoring the police dispatcher, and getting out of his truck to begin with. Had that not happened, none of us would even know who these two people are.

I choose to ignore nothing, I just don't put the entire emphasis on it because it was not a criminal act.

751 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:37:40am

re: #746 Targetpractice

Who admits it was dark, she didn't have her glasses on, and couldn't be sure who was chasing who. She also said she had heard shouting prior to the chase, so for all she knew, it was Zimmerman trying to run after getting socked by Martin.

Ok, this is useless.

752 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:37:55am

re: #742 Political Atheist

In a trial evidence and presentations will happen that support both sides. I just hope that discussion of evidence from both sides can happen without assumptions of support for GZ.

If I choose to discuss a certain point of evidence (like that bloody nose) and I see that as confirmation of part of GZ's story am I defending him? No, I'd be discussing evidence at hand. The take I get from Targetpractice is just that. Not a supporter of GZ apart from supporting a fair trial.

We all want a fair trial. But the debate here has nothing to do with what goes on in the courtroom. I have yet to see him offer any sort of defense for an unarmed kid walking through a neighborhood, minding his own business, only to end up shot and killed. I can speculate as to why, but I don't need to go there.

753 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:38:18am

re: #749 palomino

Yes, people who mourn the needless death of a Skittle armed teen are members of the "cult of Trayvon"?

You've just disproven your own claim of objectively looking at only the evidence and not allowing biases to color your arguments. "Cult of Trayvon"...yeah, that's the real problem here, huh? What a load of hateful shit.

It is hateful, isn't it? That I don't think Trayvon as pure as the driven snow and think he might have been capable of being an active participant in all of this?

754 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:38:50am

re: #751 Eventual Carrion

Ok, this is useless.

Agreed, the witness testimony is rather unreliable as to how things began.

755 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:39:28am

re: #750 Targetpractice

I choose to ignore nothing, I just don't put the entire emphasis on it because it was not a criminal act.

You're ignoring everything Martin did that night prior to being confronted by Zimmerman.

756 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:40:04am

re: #752 efuseakay

We all want a fair trial. But the debate here has nothing to do with what goes on in the courtroom. I have yet to see him offer any sort of defense for an unarmed kid walking through a neighborhood, minding his own business, only to end up shot and killed. I can speculate as to why, but I don't need to go there.

Oh, by all means, feel free to speculate. It certainly doesn't seem like there's anybody else holding back.

757 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:40:44am

re: #754 Targetpractice

Agreed, the witness testimony is rather unreliable as to how things began.

Yes. Zimmerman's testimony is rather unreliable. He's the one being charged, yet you take his words as fact.

758 palomino  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:41:26am

re: #753 Targetpractice

It is hateful, isn't it? That I don't think Trayvon as pure as the driven snow and think he might have been capable of being an active participant in all of this?

I didn't choose the term "cult of Trayvon." You did. Clearly you're biased against him for whatever reason. It's not a cult when people are upset that an unarmed kid died.

Zim's actions are those of a reckless fuck-up. Do you carry a gun and pursue people at night? Do you know any reasonable non-cops who do so?

759 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:41:28am

re: #755 efuseakay

You're ignoring everything Martin did that night prior to being confronted by Zimmerman.

Because it's not relevant. It makes for a great sob story, that he was just an innocent kid out to get some snacks, but that does not mean he's incapable of violence.

760 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:42:09am

re: #756 Targetpractice

Oh, by all means, feel free to speculate. It certainly doesn't seem like there's anybody else holding back.

Speculate? Was Martin unarmed? Was he walking to his dad's girlfriend's place? Was he breaking any laws? Oh, please clue us in as to what Martin was really doing, since I'm only speculating here.

761 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:44:13am

re: #759 Targetpractice

Because it's not relevant. It makes for a great sob story, that he was just an innocent kid out to get some snacks, but that does not mean he's incapable of violence.

Everyone on the face of this planet is capable of violence. What you can't seem to wrap your head around is this:

What illegal activities was Martin partaking in during his walk between the 7-11 and his dad's girlfriend's house?

762 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:44:14am

re: #758 palomino

I didn't choose the term "cult of Trayvon." You did. Clearly you're biased against him for whatever reason. It's not a cult when people are upset that an unarmed kid died.

Do you carry a gun and pursue people at night? Do you know any reasonable non-cops who do so?

I don't have a gun and I don't go out much at night. And no, it's not reasonable to pursue someone.

As for the cult of Travyon business, that's all I can really see at this point. People who want Zimmerman behind bars because the media sold them a narrative of this innocent, wonderful kid gunned down by a mean bastard for the crime of being black. Every time people have questioned who Trayvon Martin was and what he did before that night is accused of trying to protect George Zimmerman by smearing this kid's "good name."

763 CarleeCork  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:44:37am

re: #709 Targetpractice

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Tell that to Martin.

764 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:45:09am

re: #761 efuseakay

Everyone on the face of this planet is capable of violence. What you can't seem to wrap your head around is this:

What illegal activities was Martin partaking in during his walk between the 7-11 and his dad's girlfriend's house?

None that I can see.

765 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:46:50am

re: #762 Targetpractice

I don't have a gun and I don't go out much at night. And no, it's not reasonable to pursue someone.

As for the cult of Travyon business, that's all I can really see at this point. People who want Zimmerman behind bars because the media sold them a narrative of this innocent, wonderful kid gunned down by a mean bastard for the crime of being black. Every time people have questioned who Trayvon Martin was and what he did before that night is accused of trying to protect George Zimmerman by smearing this kid's "good name."

What do his activities before that night have to do with what happened that night?

I'm sure he was a punk. Being a punk isn't illegal, just as you feel Zimmerman confronting Martin isn't illegal. Double-standard, much?

766 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:47:30am

re: #764 Targetpractice

None that I can see.

So should he have been confronted in any way?

767 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:47:38am

re: #765 efuseakay

What do his activities before that night have to do with what happened that night?

I'm sure he was a punk. Being a punk isn't illegal, just as you feel Zimmerman confronting Martin isn't illegal. Double-standard, much?

If he was a punk, is it inconceivable he might have been the aggressor? That he might have confronted Zimmerman and might have thrown the first punch?

768 palomino  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:48:22am

re: #762 Targetpractice

I don't have a gun and I don't go out much at night. And no, it's not reasonable to pursue someone.

As for the cult of Travyon business, that's all I can really see at this point. People who want Zimmerman behind bars because the media sold them a narrative of this innocent, wonderful kid gunned down by a mean bastard for the crime of being black. Every time people have questioned who Trayvon Martin was and what he did before that night is accused of trying to protect George Zimmerman by smearing this kid's "good name."

Great, at least we agree on something. To me, it's the moral--not legal--crux of the case: No pursuit, no dead Trayvon.

769 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:48:50am

re: #763 CarleeCork

Tell that to Martin.

That really has no bearing on due process as best as can be done. A key witness dies in every killing. All we have is our best efforts at evidence gathering and the trial.

770 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:48:51am

re: #768 palomino

Great, at least we agree on something. To me, it's the moral--not legal--crux of the case: No pursuit, no dead Trayvon.

Morality and legality are not always the same thing.

771 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:51:56am

re: #741 palomino

No, you haven't paid attention to what I said. I'm not convinced he's guilty of 2nd degree murder, but probably a lesser crime instead. I'm speaking more about the rationality and morality of his actions.

My point is that people like Zim, with delusions of grandeur and pretending to be something they're not (a cop in this case) are dangerous. Even if not guilty of murder, his actions should be condemned. We don't need self-appointed Charles Bronsons.

How did you arrive at your characterizations of GZ? From statements by police, Zim or the few witnesses?
Those are some nasty little things to say about someone... delusions of grandeur, pretending to be something they're not, self- appointed Charles Bronson...

Should Z not have called the police, or was he wrong to suspect a stranger walking through his recently burglar- ridden neighborhood?

Was Z wrong to be a member of the neighborhood watch ass'n, or should those groups not exist?

If Z had a CCW permit, was he wrong to have it, or make use ofr it?

As I recall (feel free to correct memory,) Z. wasn't even acting as a neighborhood watchman at the time, but was on his way to the store. He then spotted M. and called the police and followed M. for a time, but broke off at behest of Dispatch and was then confronted by M., with tragic result.

If George had decided to go to the store one minute later, none of this would have happened.
If If If

772 palomino  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:53:45am

re: #770 Targetpractice

Morality and legality are not always the same thing.

As a sentient American, I realize that. Maybe you didn't notice, but I'm not arguing the legality here. I'm making a moral argument about Zim, namely, that his actions were immoral, irrational, reckless, stupid, etc., by nearly any standard.

Repeat: I'm not saying he's guilty of 2nd degree murder. Just "guilty" of all the things I listed above.

773 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:53:54am

re: #763 CarleeCork

Tell that to Martin.

That doesn't fly very far at all.

774 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:55:19am

re: #772 palomino

As a sentient American, I realize that. Maybe you didn't notice, but I'm not arguing the legality here. I'm making a moral argument about Zim, namely, that his actions were immoral, irrational, reckless, stupid, etc., by nearly any standard.

Repeat: I'm not saying he's guilty of 2nd degree murder. Just "guilty" of all the things I listed above.

Unfortunately, none of that is reason to put him behind bars if he didn't break the law. Are you looking for justice or revenge?

775 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:58:35am

re: #767 Targetpractice

If he was a punk, is it inconceivable he might have been the aggressor? That he might have confronted Zimmerman and might have thrown the first punch?

Why did Zimmerman get out of his car?

As far as I know, Martin was never arrested for assaulting a cop. In fact, Martin had no criminal record at all, unlike his killer. School records are just your attempt to smear Martin. They have no bearing on this case.

If I were involved in this case, I'd gladly release Martin's highschool transcripts if Zimmerman's records can be un-expunged. A few suspensions for marijuana vs. assaulting a cop/restraining order from ex-gf... Let the jury deliberate on that.

776 palomino  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:59:29am

re: #771 Capitalist Tool

How did you arrive at your characterizations of GZ? From statements by police, Zim or the few witnesses?
Those are some nasty little things to say about someone... delusions of grandeur, pretending to be something they're not, self- appointed Charles Bronson...

Should Z not have called the police, or was he wrong to suspect a stranger walking through his recently burglar- ridden neighborhood?

Was Z wrong to be a member of the neighborhood watch ass'n, or should those groups not exist?

If Z had a CCW permit, was he wrong to have it, or make use ofr it?

As I recall (feel free to correct memory,) Z. wasn't even acting as a neighborhood watchman at the time, but was on his way to the store. He then spotted M. and called the police and followed M. for a time, but broke off at behest of Dispatch and was then confronted by M., with tragic result.

If George had decided to go to the store one minute later, none of this would have happened.
If If If

Clearly Zim was acting as a wannabe cop. He's not a cop, and his actions simply underscore the dangers of people acting as such. Was it legal to get out of his car with a gun? Sure, I guess under FL law.

But his actions were reckless, dangerous, stupid. The fact that there was crime in his neighborhood (as there is in most neighborhoods across the country) doesn't justify his deranged attempts to play police officer.

777 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:01:06am

re: #775 efuseakay

Why did Zimmerman get out of his car?

As far as I know, Martin was never arrested for assaulting a cop. In fact, Martin had no criminal record at all, unlike his killer. School records are just your attempt to smear Martin. They have no bearing on this case.

If I were involved in this case, I'd gladly release Martin's highschool transcripts if Zimmerman's records can be un-expunged. A few suspensions for marijuana vs. assaulting a cop/restraining order from ex-gf... Let the jury deliberate on that.

And my point is made, you don't want to entertain the idea that Martin was anything other than the innocent kid you've been told he is. You want to avoid that, instead putting all the blame on Zimmerman because it's easier to accept that he's at fault.

778 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:02:36am

1. Zimmerman called the police to report Martin’s “suspicious” behavior, which he described as “just walking around looking about.” Zimmerman was in his car when he saw Martin walking on the street. He called the police and said: “There’s a real suspicious guy. This guy looks like he’s up to no good, on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about… These a**holes always get away” [Orlando Sentinel]

2. Zimmerman pursued Martin against the explicit instructions of the police dispatcher:
Dispatcher: “Are you following him?”
Zimmerman: “Yeah”
Dispatcher: “OK, we don’t need you to do that.”

----------------------------------------------------

That should have been the end to this whole mess. Had he listened, Martin would be alive, and none of us would have ever heard of either of them.

779 palomino  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:02:45am

re: #774 Targetpractice

Unfortunately, none of that is reason to put him behind bars if he didn't break the law. Are you looking for justice or revenge?

Where did I say I wanted him behind bars?

I think he's an asshole, and probably mentally unstable. But I actually don't think he belongs behind bars (at least not for murder) unless a trial brings up new evidence I'm not familiar with.

780 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:04:05am

re: #779 palomino

Where did I say I wanted him behind bars?

I think he's an asshole, and probably mentally unstable. But I actually don't think he belongs behind bars (at least not for murder) unless a trial brings up new evidence I'm not familiar with.

And I appreciate your view. I don't have a high opinion of the guy myself either, but I think he deserves a fair trial.

781 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:05:31am

re: #778 efuseakay

1. Zimmerman called the police to report Martin’s “suspicious” behavior, which he described as “just walking around looking about.” Zimmerman was in his car when he saw Martin walking on the street. He called the police and said: “There’s a real suspicious guy. This guy looks like he’s up to no good, on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about… These a**holes always get away” [Orlando Sentinel]

2. Zimmerman pursued Martin against the explicit instructions of the police dispatcher:
Dispatcher: “Are you following him?”
Zimmerman: “Yeah”
Dispatcher: “OK, we don’t need you to do that.”

----------------------------------------------------

That should have been the end to this whole mess. Had he listened, Martin would be alive, and none of us would have ever heard of either of them.

Perhaps my memory is all wrong, but didn't Z. stop following T. at that point?

782 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:06:02am

re: #777 Targetpractice

And my point is made, you don't want to entertain the idea that Martin was anything other than the innocent kid you've been told he is. You want to avoid that, instead putting all the blame on Zimmerman because it's easier to accept that he's at fault.

No. I have told you, and you even addressed my post where I said Martin was more than likely a punk. But his highschool transcripts have no bearing on this case whatsoever.

Unless you want the jury to deliberate on which is worse, and more likely to have an effect on their case:

Suspensions from school for marijuana

or

Assaulting a police officer
domestic abuse

Can we see Zimmerman's college transcripts too? What about his highschool records?

I mean, if we are trying to get an idea of what kind of person Martin was, we should do the same for Zimmerman, right?

But somehow, that makes me a member of "The Cult of innocent angleboy Trayvon".

783 TedStriker  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:06:26am

re: #777 Targetpractice

And my point is made, you don't want to entertain the idea that Martin was anything other than the innocent kid you've been told he is. You want to avoid that, instead putting all the blame on Zimmerman because it's easier to accept that he's at fault.

And our point is made, you don't want to entertain the idea that Zimmerman is anything other than the upstanding, law-abiding armed citizen that was just watching over his neighborhood when "confronted" with a unarmed young black male with a can of tea and a bag of Skittles. You want to avoid that, instead putting all the blame on Martin because it's easier to accept that he's at fault.

/what's good for the goose is good for the gander

784 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:08:26am

re: #780 Targetpractice

And I appreciate your view. I don't have a high opinion of the guy myself either, but I think he deserves a fair trial.

Of course he deserves a fair trial.

None of us are on the jury. That's why we can have this sort of debate. We all have our opinions.

I still think OJ is guilty as fuck, but the court ruled what they ruled. That's how it's supposed to work.

785 TedStriker  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:08:39am

...

786 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:09:19am

re: #782 efuseakay

No. I have told you, and you even addressed my post where I said Martin was more than likely a punk. But his highschool transcripts have no bearing on this case whatsoever.

Unless you want the jury to deliberate on which is worse, and more likely to have an effect on their case:

Suspensions from school for marijuana

or

Assaulting a police officer
domestic abuse

Can we see Zimmerman's college transcripts too? What about his highschool records?

I mean, if we are trying to get an idea of what kind of person Martin was, we should do the same for Zimmerman, right?

But somehow, that makes me a member of "The Cult of innocent angleboy Trayvon".

How do you know that pot usage is the only thing in his transcripts? How 'bout the jewelry and screwdriver that was also in his backpack? The ones he says he was holding for a friend? Or the twitter messages suggesting that he struck a bus driver?

What information about Travyon Martin hasn't come from his family and friends, who have every reason to spit-shine his reputation?

787 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:09:48am

re: #785 TedStriker

/what's good for the goose is good for the gander

But... but... sequence of events!!!!!!!!!! Martin's highschool records!!!! He could have been a punk!!!!! MARTIN! MARTIN! MARTIN!

788 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:10:41am

re: #783 TedStriker

And our point is made, you don't want to entertain the idea that Zimmerman is anything other than the upstanding, law-abiding armed citizen that was just watching over his neighborhood when "confronted" with a unarmed young black male with a can of tea and a bag of Skittles. You want to avoid that, instead putting all the blame on Martin because it's easier to accept that he's at fault.

I don't think George Zimmerman either upstanding or law-abiding, else I'd have to ignore those arrests, expunged though they may be, and the restraining order. In fact, I know a great deal about who George Zimmerman was and all the nasty stuff he's accused of. Know how? Because the media made it a point to dig through every dumpster and find every person with an axe to grind to tell us about the evils of George Zimmerman.

789 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:12:34am

re: #786 Targetpractice

How do you know that pot usage is the only thing in his transcripts? How 'bout the jewelry and screwdriver that was also in his backpack? The ones he says he was holding for a friend? Or the twitter messages suggesting that he struck a bus driver?

What information about Travyon Martin hasn't come from his family and friends, who have every reason to spit-shine his reputation?

Jewelry. Screwdriver. Arrest him!

Oh. Twitter. Yes. Everything on the internet is true!

790 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:13:46am

re: #789 efuseakay

Jewelry. Screwdriver. Arrest him!

Oh. Twitter. Yes. Everything on the internet is true!

[Embedded content]

You're right, why look into the background of one Trayvon Martin. Nothing there of interest. Kid probably just made a few mistakes we all do.

///

791 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:13:59am

re: #788 Targetpractice

I don't think George Zimmerman either upstanding or law-abiding, else I'd have to ignore those arrests, expunged though they may be, and the restraining order. In fact, I know a great deal about who George Zimmerman was and all the nasty stuff he's accused of. Know how? Because the media made it a point to dig through every dumpster and find every person with an axe to grind to tell us about the evils of George Zimmerman.

Yeah. He's the one that killed some black kid walking through a neighborhood he had every right to be in. Who would ever imagine wanting to know about the killer!

792 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:15:13am

re: #790 Targetpractice

You're right, why look into the background of one Trayvon Martin. Nothing there of interest. Kid probably just made a few mistakes we all do.

///

So having jewelry and a screwdriver somehow makes him an unsavory character?

793 TedStriker  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:15:47am

re: #788 Targetpractice

I don't think George Zimmerman either upstanding or law-abiding, else I'd have to ignore those arrests, expunged though they may be, and the restraining order. In fact, I know a great deal about who George Zimmerman was and all the nasty stuff he's accused of. Know how? Because the media made it a point to dig through every dumpster and find every person with an axe to grind to tell us about the evils of George Zimmerman.

This whole conversation, one thing has been made crystal clear: you (and others who are steadfastly in Zimmerman's corner) don't want justice out of all of this, you want justification. I wonder why?

Martin may have been no saint, but he was, from all indications, an average teenage boy; teenagers don't always think things all the way through, but adults should, so what is Zimmerman's excuse?

794 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:15:59am

Everyone is guilty of breaking laws. Everyone is guilty of moral transgressions.
Damnations can be heaped on anyone by anyone else with an agenda and the trial will be filled with such, by both sides. Our courts do not deal in the whole truth of things, regardless of oaths.

All that matters in this case is what is known about what actually happened at the time and the way the jury interprets it.

795 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:16:05am

re: #792 efuseakay

So having jewelry and a screwdriver somehow makes him an unsavory character?

Certainly raises questions in my mind as to who Trayvon Martin was. But I guess that would just be me, looking to mindlessly defend George Zimmerman.

///

796 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:17:23am

re: #793 TedStriker

This whole conversation, one thing has been made crystal clear: you (and others who are steadfastly in Zimmerman's corner) don't want justice out of all of this, you want justification. I wonder why?

Martin may have been no saint, but he was, from all indications, an average teenage boy; teenagers don't always think things all the way through, but adults should, so what is Zimmerman's excuse?

"From all indications," as in what you've read about and heard from his friends and family?

797 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:18:36am

re: #791 efuseakay

Yeah. He's the one that killed some black kid walking through a neighborhood he had every right to be in...

... and the right to pound some guy's head into the concrete and...

798 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:20:00am

George Zimmerman's friends and family talk about how friendly he is, how helpful, and we're told "They've got no reason to say anything bad about him!"

Travyon Martin's family says how he was friendly and a good student, we're told "See this poor kid gunned down in the prime of his life!!!"

Yeah, I can't imagine why. *rolleyes*

799 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:26:13am

re: #795 Targetpractice

Certainly raises questions in my mind as to who Trayvon Martin was. But I guess that would just be me, looking to mindlessly defend George Zimmerman.

///

Why does Martin having jewelry and a screwdriver in his backpack make you raise questions about him?

800 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:27:44am

re: #799 efuseakay

Why does Martin having jewelry and a screwdriver in his backpack make you raise questions about him?

Think the more pressing question is why aren't you interested? Do you know many teenage guys who carry a bunch of jewelry and screwdrivers in their bags, then tell folks who ask that they're holding it for a friend? Was the empty baggie also something he was just holding for a friend?

801 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:30:19am

re: #800 Targetpractice

Think the more pressing question is why aren't you interested? Do you know many teenage guys who carry a bunch of jewelry and screwdrivers in their bags, then tell folks who ask that they're holding it for a friend? Was the empty baggie also something he was just holding for a friend?

There you go again. Avoiding another question. You're the one that brought it up. So why does a screwdriver and jewelry make you raise questions about him? And what does any of that have to do with the night he was killed? Care to clue us in?

802 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:32:31am

re: #801 efuseakay

There you go again. Avoiding another question. You're the one that brought it up. So why does a screwdriver and jewelry make you raise questions about him? Care to clue us in?

Because it makes me wonder if he or a friend isn't engaged in less than legal activities.

803 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:41:29am

re: #802 Targetpractice

Because it makes me wonder if he or a friend isn't engaged in less than legal activities.

I have a screwdriver in my car. I must be breaking some sort of laws because of that.

804 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:42:15am

re: #803 efuseakay

I have a screwdriver in my car. I must be breaking some sort of laws because of that.

You holding it for a friend?

805 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:44:13am

re: #804 Targetpractice

You holding it for a friend?

Yes. That's illegal, right?

And I have a baseball bat in the trunk too. Shoot me.

806 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:45:22am

re: #805 efuseakay

Yes. That's illegal, right?

And I have a baseball bat in the trunk too. Shoot me.

Run zigzag?

807 efuseakay  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:46:42am

re: #806 Capitalist Tool

Run zigzag?

Zagzig. Everyone expects you to zigzag.

808 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 11:47:53am

re: #805 efuseakay

Yes. That's illegal, right?

And I have a baseball bat in the trunk too. Shoot me.

I think we'll let you off with a warning this time. But we'll have to take the bat...as "evidence." Yeah, that's the ticket.


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