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Ted Nugent: If You’re on Welfare You Shouldn’t Be Allowed to Vote

The Nuge likes to kill
Wingnuts • Views: 22,589

Today at the Washington Times, Ted Nugent has emerged again from his ammo bunker with one of his typically freakish rants. Years ago, Nugent’s wild man act used to be amusing, but now it’s devolved into pure right wing hateful ugliness as he advocates “slaughtering” Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, and prohibiting citizens on welfare from voting.

The three sacred entitlement cows in the room that no politician wants to poke are Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. A blinding statement of the obvious is that we are never going to get our financial house in order until these sacred entitlement cows are not only poked, but slaughtered. Until the slaughter is over, everything else is just taxation window dressing. …

Let’s also stop the insanity by suspending the right to vote of any American who is on welfare. Once they get off welfare and are self-sustaining, they get their right to vote restored. No American on welfare should have the right to vote for tax increases on those Americans who are working and paying taxes to support them. That’s insane.

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146 comments

1 Lidane  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:36:52pm

So Ted Nugent would disenfranchise the red states and a vast majority of Wal-Mart's employees?

Awesome. Only not, since I'm stuck in a red state. =P

2 erik_t  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:37:02pm

If you shit yourself to get out of the draft and then question the patriotism of others, you shouldn't be allowed to be taken seriously.

3 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:37:08pm

Hey Tea Partiers, guess what, HE MEANS YOU!

4 erik_t  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:37:28pm

BTW, I thought you were supposed to be in jail or dead?

5 Ghost of Tom Joad  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:37:39pm

Why isn't he dead. Or in jail. Or both. Fuck you cruel world!

6 dragonath  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:37:51pm

It doesn't take much to be a writer at the Washington Times these days, does it?

7 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:37:57pm

In Ted's and the GOP's world anytime you pin them down about SS, Medicaid, or Medicare they scream "WELFARE QUEENS!" . My Dad's the same way -- in his mind he's entitled to his vet's disability because he earned it (and he's right,) but everyone else collecting the same type of benefits are slackers, junkies, and winos...

8 jhncsy  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:38:07pm

I don't believe Mr. Nugent relies on Social Security, Medicare or Medicaid, does he?

What a shock.

9 Ghost of Tom Joad  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:38:19pm

re: #1 Lidane

So Ted Nugent would disenfranchise the red states and a vast majority of Wal-Mart's employees?

Awesome. Only not, since I'm stuck in a red state. =P

He'd then turn around and ask that they be given 3/5ths of a vote.

10 Amory Blaine  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:39:18pm

$100 million in business tax credits, but at what cost?

Wisconsin manufacturers and farmers are poised to cash in on the biggest state tax break they’ve received in decades, a move hailed by business groups but questioned by others worried about the annual tax revenue loss of more than $100 million.

The Republican-controlled Legislature included the “domestic production tax credit” in the 2011-13 state budget. It applies to production in Wisconsin and on Wisconsin property that’s assessed for manufacturing or agricultural use. Over the next four years, income taxes on these sectors will be reduced to nearly nothing.

11 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:40:19pm

One of my customers told me that renters should have no say over any planning and zoning by the city. Only property owners. He assumed that I'm a property owner because I'm a business owner. I corrected him.

I should say 'former customer'.

12 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:40:51pm

Nugent continues to live in the right wing world of delusion where only conservatives work hard and have jobs and liberals are all lazy takers. Go get a clue Ted, you're insulting your own ideology's base of support.

13 Kragar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:41:01pm

And if you're a self-shitting draft dodger, you should have your citizenship stripped.

14 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:41:49pm

re: #13 Kragar

And if you're a self-shitting draft dodger, you should have your citizenship stripped.

And be pointed at and laughed at by school children. Hey, kids, that dude shat himself to get out of military duty and now he lectures others on patriotism.

15 Dr Lizardo  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:43:12pm

The wingnuts get wackier with each passing day. Keep talking yourselves deeper into that hole you've dug for yourself with the American electorate.

16 Kragar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:43:19pm

re: #14 HappyWarrior

And be pointed at and laughed at by school children. Hey, kids, that dude shat himself to get out of military duty and now he lectures others on patriotism.

I propose a show of support for the Nuge. Everyone should send him a full diaper.

17 ShroedingersGat  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:44:03pm

Wonder if that includes retirees, veterans, and disabled? Also, anyone who works for Exxon or grows corn. Lets throw those in there for a good measure.

18 dragonath  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:44:13pm

Funny comment over there:

That's right, take away a person's fundamental Constitutional right because they got laid off.

That makes sense.

19 Ghost of Tom Joad  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:44:20pm

re: #10 Amory Blaine

$100 million in business tax credits, but at what cost?

Typical scenario. Give huge tax breaks to already enormous businesses for "creating jerbs." CEOs, owners, and wealthy shareholders pocket most of that money, then use said money to support legislators who will continue to lavish them with tax breaks. State can then claim they're out of money (gee, wonder why), therefore must cut social services. Rinse, repeat.

20 Kragar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:44:33pm

DAMN IT AUTOHYPHEN! YOU DON'T HYPHENATE DIAPER!

21 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:44:53pm
22 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:45:25pm

Of course, when Ted says "people on welfare", he doesn't mean "hard-working white folks who are temporarily between jobs"...

23 Amory Blaine  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:46:57pm
24 Bulworth  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:47:41pm
we are never going to get our financial house in order until these sacred entitlement cows are not only poked, but slaughtered. Until the slaughter is over, everything else is just taxation window dressing. …

If Romney had only made this very sensible argument. He woulda won for sure. /

25 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:48:00pm

Whacko Tango!

26 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:48:40pm

re: #24 Bulworth

If Romney had only made this very sensible argument. He woulda won for sure. /

Paul Ryan made a similar argument, he just avoided terms like "slaughter".

27 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:49:16pm

re: #26 Sol Berdinowitz

Paul Ryan made a similar argument, he just avoided terms like "slaughter".

True, I believe he used the word "reform."

28 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:50:38pm

Welfare is a dog whistle for guys like Nugent.

29 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:50:47pm

re: #20 Kragar

DAMN IT AUTOHYPHEN! YOU DON'T HYPHENATE DIAPER!

Why not?

30 Bulworth  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:51:28pm

re: #27 Targetpractice

True, I believe he used the word "reform."

But for the 8 or so people who still get the Moonie Times, there's no need to weasel around with words like "reform".

31 Lidane  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:51:45pm

re: #22 Sol Berdinowitz

Of course, when Ted says "people on welfare", he doesn't mean "hard-working white folks who are temporarily between jobs"...

None of the RWNJs ever do.

I honestly hope that they pass the drug test requirement for welfare and unemployment here in Texas. The same white people agreeing with the likes of Rick Perry and Ted Nugent now will squeal like stuck pigs when they're required to take a drug test to get their money after getting laid off.

32 Targetpractice  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:52:10pm

re: #28 Gus

Welfare is a dog whistle for guys like Nugent.

One has no problem blowing long and hard while he lives primarily off royalties that come from the paychecks of...that's right...those folks on welfare he thinks don't deserve to have right to vote.

33 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:56:41pm
A man travelling through Tucson International Airport called police last month to ask if an officer could write a note to the local cartel explaining that he lost $20,000 in drug money.

It was the third time Demarco Alonzo Thomas transported money from his home state of North Carolina to Tucson for drug dealers, but the first time he’d misplaced a chunk of cash, according to a search warrant requested by the Tucson Airport Authority Police Department.

The 30-year-old was afraid he’d be killed for losing the money. He thought it might help smooth things over if he could show cartel members a phony receipt from the local police stating they had seized the money, according to the warrant.

[...]

Instead, police arrested the courier on suspicion of money laundering and racketeering, and searched his suitcase and personal property. They found $17,000 in hundred dollar bills in the pockets of a pair of blue jeans packed in the suit case, and another $3,020 in hundreds in his wallet.

However, when officers asked Thomas to sign paperwork stating they really were going to seize the cash, he refused.

34 dragonath  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:57:22pm

On the sidebar of that article:

YOU MIGHT ALSO LIKE

MILLER: Obama is left of liberals

WAGNER: Obama’s sad toy story

LAMBRO: Obama’s war on wealth

OBAMA IS A SOCIALIST
OBAMA UHH TOYS
OBAMA HATES MONEY

AIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

35 Kragar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 1:58:01pm

re: #29 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

Why not?

Its not a compound word.

37 Ian G.  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:00:16pm

Why does anyone give a rat's ass what this guy says? Do wingers really want their own celebrities to counter-balance Alec Baldwin and Barbara Streisand? If so, they should stick with Clint Eastwood (empty chair notwithstanding). Unlike Nugent, he isn't bugfuck insane, and has actually create things of genuine artistic merit.

38 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:01:40pm

re: #35 Kragar

Its not a compound word.

Being a compound word is not a criterion for end-of-line hyphenation. Having more than one syllable is.

39 bratwurst  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:02:20pm

I am sure GOPers will write this fucking idiot off as a fringe lunatic who doesn't represent anyone blah blah blah...but here he is having a visit with the runner up from the 2008 presidential nomination process on the media arm of the party, and being called "a patriot and a friend":

40 The Ghost of a Flea  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:02:56pm

re: #36 Kragar

Texas Church Offers Firearms Classes To Train Parishioners To Defend Against Imaginary Bands Of Mexicans

So if you meet Jesus is the desert, kill Jesus?

I thought that was more a Zen thing.

41 Kragar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:04:44pm

re: #38 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

Being a compound word is not a criterion for end-of-line hyphenation. Having more than one syllable is.

Oh, so you're one of those blue helmeted socialists trying to tell me what to do, eh?

42 dragonath  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:05:07pm

Right on cue, the "reasonable" right wing media begins to push Douthat's "America needs more babies" meme.

Why a Falling Birth Rate Is a Big Problem

I hate these people. They see life as human capital.

43 Kragar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:05:26pm

re: #37 Ian G.

Why does anyone give a rat's ass what this guy says? Do wingers really want their own celebrities to counter-balance Alec Baldwin and Barbara Streisand? If so, they should stick with Clint Eastwood (empty chair notwithstanding). Unlike Nugent, he isn't bugfuck insane, and has actually create things of genuine artistic merit.

You've never wangoed zee tango?

44 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:05:58pm

re: #8 jhncsy

I don't believe Mr. Nugent relies on Social Security, Medicare or Medicaid, does he?

What a shock.

Ted had a few pretty big hit records back in the day, and some very successful tours. He's probably pretty well set up financially, if he hasn't spent it all on weaponry and ammo.

45 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:06:04pm

re: #41 Kragar

Oh, so you're one of those blue helmeted socialists trying to tell me what to do, eh?

I thought you were the one trying to lay down the law to the hyphenation algorithm.

46 Lidane  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:06:55pm

re: #37 Ian G.

Do wingers really want their own celebrities to counter-balance Alec Baldwin and Barbara Streisand?

Yes. Unfortunately, they often end up with B-listers like Adam Baldwin and washed up hacks like Victoria Jackson and Ted Nugent.

47 Kragar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:06:58pm

re: #45 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

I thought you were the one trying to lay down the law to the hyphenation algorithm.

It all comes down to grammar.

48 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:07:34pm
49 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:08:54pm

re: #47 Kragar

It all comes down to grammar.

?

50 Kragar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:09:22pm

Right-wing misinformation leads half of Republicans to believe ACORN stole 2012 election

Nearly endless gobs of misinformation spewed from partisan media outlets in recent years had resulted in an astonishing achievement: 49 percent of Republicans now say that the disbanded community organizing group ACORN stole the 2012 presidential election for President Barack Obama, according to a survey by Public Policy Polling (PPP) released Tuesday.

The finding is especially stunning considering that ACORN, which stands for The Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, filed for bankruptcy and disbanded in 2010. The group was targeted by conservative media prankster James O’Keefe in a series of intentionally misleading videos that purported to show employees explaining how to force children into prostitution. Then-Minority Leader John Boehner (R-OH) sponsored a bill in 2009 to pull all government funding of the group, which passed and led to their collapse.

Following Obama’s successful campaign against Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) in 2008, PPP found that a whopping 52 percent of Republicans said that the loss was ACORN’s doing — meaning 2012′s figures are only a marginal improvement.

51 Kragar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:10:34pm

re: #49 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

?

Grammar trumps algorithms. The algorithm got it wrong.

52 dragonath  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:12:11pm
53 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:12:35pm

re: #51 Kragar

Grammar trumps algorithms. The algorithm got it wrong.

No, it did not. There is no grammatical rule that states that words may be hyphenated at the end of a line of print only if they are compound. I can point you at hundreds (probably thousands) of books in Google Books that violate this putative rule of grammar.

ETA - and in any case, this isn't a matter of grammar, but rather of orthography.

54 Kragar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:13:21pm

re: #53 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

No, it did not. There is no grammatical rule that states that words may be hyphenated at the end of a line of print only if they are compound. I can point you at hundreds (probably thousands) of books in Google Books that violate this putative rule of grammar.

/faints

55 Killgore Trout  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:16:47pm

re: #52 dragonath

Two conservative Republicans booted from House budget panel

Looks like Boehner is trying to stack the deck so he can make some sort of cliff deal. I wish him luck but I have my doubts anything can be done. I don't think we'll go over the cliff but they'll probably make some sort of deal to kick the can down the road again while accomplishing as little as possible.

56 dragonath  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:17:04pm

re: #53 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

I'm pretty sure that newspapers in the old days used to take more care to hyphenating words at the end of a syllable.

57 Bulworth  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:22:34pm

I've been a little out of it the past couple days....what's new in BenghaziGate?

//

58 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:23:42pm

The New York Post catches criticism for running photo and "Doomed" headline of man who was pushed onto the tracks moments away from his death.


I suppose it didn't occur to the person taking the picture to help the man up instead? Also...way to stay classy there Post. :(

59 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:24:13pm

re: #56 dragonath

I'm pretty sure that newspapers in the old days used to take more care to hyphenating words at the end of a syllable.

Well, not always. I remember seeing hyphenations (in the Boston Globe) such as "not- rump" and "boyf- riend". But those are exceptional cases, and newspapers are produced on a rush schedule. The real standard in this area is book publishing, not newspapers.

And, in any case, the present issue doesn't involve a non-standard hyphenation. Diaper can be pronounced as two syllables or three, but either way the final syllable is "per", so a hyphen between "dia" and "per" is perfectly acceptable.

60 Lidane  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:24:57pm
61 erik_t  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:25:28pm

You're off to a smashing start, fellas.

"I see that the way we will get the Hispanics and the other groups, the Asians, as part of the Republican Coalition is to get them first part of the great American Coalition. Make them think of themselves, not make but, persuade them to think of themselves primarily as Americans. Restore the overarching, all-encompassing concept of an American identity..."

Loudest laughsnort possible. Nice job, National Review.

62 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:26:08pm

re: #57 Bulworth

I've been a little out of it the past couple days....what's new in BenghaziGate?

//

Apparently it's hyphen-gate.

ETA: Now here's a case where a tweak to the algorithm might be warranted.

63 Kragar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:27:53pm

re: #61 erik_t

You're off to a smashing start, fellas.

Loudest laughsnort possible. Nice job, National Review.

64 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:30:49pm

re: #48 Gus

Derp.

Very.

65 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:31:22pm

Outta here for now.

66 Jolo5309  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:32:11pm

re: #65 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

Outta here for now.

What Hercules said

67 Bulworth  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:32:49pm

re: #61 erik_t

Since the kind folks at NRO and their colleagues on talk radio throughout the land and at Faux news have been so busy declaring everyone but themselves as unAmerican, then this will require a fundamental shift in understanding. //

68 dragonath  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:34:03pm

re: #58 watching you tiny alien kittens are

The New York Post catches criticism for running photo and "Doomed" headline of man who was pushed onto the tracks moments away from his death.

[Embedded content]


I suppose it didn't occur to the person taking the picture to help the man up instead? Also...way to stay classy there Post. :(

The photographer claims he was trying to get the train to stop by using his flash. It sounds really dubious.

There's no reason the guy should have been in a position to take a photo.

69 Kragar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:36:49pm
70 Bulworth  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:37:48pm

Also, this just in, former GOP House Majority Leader, Dick Armey, has resigned from the grassroots TeaBag group, The People's United TeaBag Front. Or maybe it's the TeaBag Nation group. Anyone, this is the most disconsoling news since we learned the guy from RedState won't be running for U.S. Senate in GA.

[Link: politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...]

71 Kragar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:38:29pm

Fischer: "Our Second Amendment Is Rooted In The Teaching Of Jesus Christ"

72 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:39:48pm

re: #61 erik_t

You're off to a smashing start, fellas.

Loudest laughsnort possible. Nice job, National Review.

Yeah this is laughable. Telling them that you don't think they view themselves as Americans is a really shitty start but then again. This is the same ideology that tries to claim Paul Ryan understands today's young people concerns because Ryan likes Led Zep and AC/DC.

73 The Ghost of a Flea  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:39:58pm

re: #67 Bulworth

Since the kind folks at NRO and their colleagues on talk radio throughout the land and at Faux news have been so busy declaring everyone but themselves as unAmerican, then this will require a fundamental shift in understanding. //

The hyphenated people just have to continuously prove they're American by believing and doing whatever the whites real American want. What's so unreasonable about that? It's what made the British Empire great.

74 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:40:05pm

OT: a not exactly earth-shaking but fun new feature: if you click the album cover image in our 'Now Playing' section in the left sidebar, it zooms out into a bigger image.

75 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:40:49pm

re: #71 Kragar

Fischer: "Our Second Amendment Is Rooted In The Teaching Of Jesus Christ"

[Embedded content]

Heh. Loony toon is loony.

76 dragonath  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:42:17pm

re: #72 HappyWarrior

It's funny, I was thinking the same thing when some of the right wing blogs said they were having "difficulties" and "struggles" with different ethnic groups.

How totally patronizing.

77 wrenchwench  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:42:18pm

re: #74 Charles Johnson

OT: a not exactly earth-shaking but fun new feature: if you click the album cover image in our 'Now Playing' section in the left sidebar, it zooms out into a bigger image.

But I still can't hear it!!!!

/

78 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:43:08pm

And Jesus said, may there be a Tommy Gun at every table but I'll fight tooth and nail to prevent the government from trying to get people better health care. It's right after the part where Jesus damns the guy to hell and then says he did it out of love.

79 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:43:09pm

re: #68 dragonath

The photographer claims he was trying to get the train to stop by using his flash. It sounds really dubious.

There's no reason the guy should have been in a position to take a photo.

Yeah, heard that this morning. Pretty freaking lame. Anyone should have at least save for anyone too old or handicapped. Or even tell the guy to lie down in between the tracks. Anything.

80 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:44:29pm

Obdicut,

Where did you get a definition of WMD's that excludes chemical weapons? I looked around and found a bunch of definitions that include them. Wiki Brittanica, FBI...

81 Kragar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:44:42pm

And the Son of the Lord did say, "You don't start shit, there won't be shit, Bitches."

82 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:44:59pm

re: #76 dragonath

It's funny, I was thinking the same thing when some of the right wing blogs said they were having "difficulties" and "struggles" with different ethnic groups.

How totally patronizing.

No kidding. I believe Hispanic Americans have one of the highest rates of enlistment in our armed services for example. Really telling them that they don't view themselves as Americans is not only patronizing, it's down right insulting. But this is the right we're talking about who repeatedly show themselves to be clueless to what minority voters care about. Here's a clue assholes. Don't talk down to them or act like their concerns aren't important or that they're all illegals trying to take your job.

83 Lidane  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:45:30pm

re: #71 Kragar

Fischer: "Our Second Amendment Is Rooted In The Teaching Of Jesus Christ"

[Embedded content]

Because if Jesus was about anything, he was about guns and ammo.

84 Bulworth  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:45:42pm

re: #69 Kragar

The list of signees and their affiliated entities is quite amusing.

Seton Motley, President Less Government

Cindy Chafian, President, The Mommy Lobby

And the best

Richard W. C. Falknor, Chairman, Maryland Center-Right Coalition

Don't know who this last dude is but any "center-right" outfit in Maryland is undoubtedly a pretty small astroturf.

85 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:46:01pm

re: #83 Lidane

Because if Jesus was about anything, he was about guns and ammo.

But not about helping the poor and sick. That's commie crap.

86 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:48:00pm

re: #80 Political Atheist

Obdicut,

Where did you get a definition of WMD's that excludes chemical weapons? I looked around and found a bunch of definitions that include them. Wiki Brittanica, FBI...

From common sense.

WMD means a weapon of mass destruction.

Chemical weapons are markedly less efficient at killing people that conventional weapons. If you spend the same money and effort on, say, shelling the shit out of somewhere, you'll kill more people than if you'd used chemical weapons.

Nukes, on the other hand, are far more efficient than conventional weapons. Some biological weapons would be, too, theoretically.

Nukes are the only actual WMDs. The other weapons are terror weapons. The distinction is an important one, and I really hate that the Bush administration eroded that and that the Obama administration has done nothing to correct it.

Shorter version: If chemical weapons are WMDs, then so is a 155 mm Howitzer, or a B-17 flying fortress dropping bombs in WWII.

87 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:50:03pm

Cool - the new John Hiatt album on sale at Amazon MP3 Store for only $5.99:

Mystic Pinball: John Hiatt.

88 Kragar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:50:25pm

WMD is a mentality, not a classification.

Don't confuse WMD with NBC (Nuclear/Biological/Chemical).

89 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:50:36pm

How about people on public assistance only get 3/5ths a vote?

Oh, wait...

90 Bulworth  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:52:35pm

From the RedState letter to Congress.

Harold Sorensen Americans Must Investigate Public Servants

Lisa Becker, President, Liber8Congress

Preston Noell III, President, Tradition, Family, Property, Inc.

Ron Hei, Common Sense Tea Party Patriots of Covington County, AL

Dr. Terry B. Batton, Founder and President, Barbour County, Alabama Tax Enough Already Party

Hahahahahaha

91 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:54:08pm
92 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:54:40pm

re: #86 Obdicut

Your definition is far narrower than the widely established definitions. I use the terms more loosely as per general usage. Biological weapons are included as well, although not in terms of the warnings of Syria making sarin.

93 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:55:13pm

re: #68 dragonath

The photographer claims he was trying to get the train to stop by using his flash. It sounds really dubious.

There's no reason the guy should have been in a position to take a photo.

"I was using my flash to blind the driver in the hopes he would stop before he hit the man he couldn't see because of my flash blinding him!"

See it makes perfect sense!

///

94 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:55:19pm

get our financial house in order

these guys have completely made a fetish of budget balancing, as if it would solve any problems beyond lowering the amount of debt service we owe

let him run a large corporation for a while so he can get a sense of how large organizations need to use deficit financing to reach long term profit goals

95 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:56:05pm

re: #91 Gus

[Embedded content]

When Pat Robertson looks more reasonable than you. It's time to take a step off the ledge.

96 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:56:37pm

Scientific evidence: not enough salt in the sea

scientific proof that this bar does not know how to make margaritas

97 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:57:07pm

re: #68 dragonath

I agree. we have to be humans first, whatever else second.

98 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:57:41pm

re: #94 engineer cat

get our financial house in order

these guys have completely made a fetish of budget balancing, as if it would solve any problems beyond lowering the amount of debt service we owe

It's not about the debt. It's about de-funding social programs, starving them.

99 jaunte  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:58:09pm

re: #91 Gus

That old "not enough salt in the sea" saw was busted back in 1954.

100 Kragar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:58:28pm

Bryan Fischer is the kind of man who would argue the Earth is heavier now than in the past because we've built so much stuff.

101 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 2:59:26pm

re: #100 Kragar

Bryan Fischer is the kind of man who would argue the Earth is heavier now than in the past because we've built so much stuff.

Probably still believes the earth is flat too.

102 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:00:29pm

re: #92 Political Atheist

Your definition is far narrower than the widely established definitions

Yes, it is, and I gave my reasons for that.

. I use the terms more loosely as per general usage. Biological weapons are included as well, although not in terms of the warnings of Syria making sarin.

And by using the terms loosely, you help to continue the confusion that has been created by their use.

The difference between "A nuclear weapon is about to detonate in New York City" and "A chemical weapons is about to be used in New York City" is immense. The latter is like the Sarin gas attack on Tokyo's subway.

Acting as those are even related events is bizarre to me.

I propose that we use "Weapons of Mass Destruction" to describe weapons that can cause mass destruction.

Rather than, as it seems increasingly to be, "Anything that's not a conventional weapon, including things that are actually far less deadly than conventional weapons".

103 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:00:30pm

re: #98 Henchman Ghazi-808

It's not about the debt. It's about de-funding social programs, starving them.

No kidding. If they were actually serious about the debts. They wouldn't be signing Norquist's moronic pledge or refusing to touch the defense budget. They're not concerned about fixing the debt. They're concerned about getting rid of social programs only.

104 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:01:37pm

re: #100 Kragar

Bryan Fischer is the kind of man who would argue the Earth is heavier now than in the past because we've built so much stuff.

That's unproveable. There's no current scale that could weigh the whole earth.

Therefore, it's true.

105 RadicalModerate  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:03:30pm

re: #50 Kragar

Right-wing misinformation leads half of Republicans to believe ACORN stole 2012 election

The original Public Policy Polling article on their survey can be found here, with a link to the actual poll within the story.

Republicans not handling election results well

PPP's first post election national poll finds that Republicans are taking the results pretty hard...and also declining in numbers.

49% of GOP voters nationally say they think that ACORN stole the election for President Obama. We found that 52% of Republicans thought that ACORN stole the 2008 election for Obama, so this is a modest decline, but perhaps smaller than might have been expected given that ACORN doesn't exist anymore.

Some GOP voters are so unhappy with the outcome that they no longer care to be a part of the United States. 25% of Republicans say they would like their state to secede from the union compared to 56% who want to stay and 19% who aren't sure.

Apparently, being a Republican voter IS easier than thinking.

106 dragonath  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:03:45pm

re: #79 Gus

If I were the photographer, I would have had no problem throwing the camera at the train to get the attention of the engineer. I hate how inflexible people think sometimes.

From the look of the photo, the guy was no more than 10 feet away.

107 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:04:00pm

re: #98 Henchman Ghazi-808

It's not about the debt. It's about de-funding social programs, starving them.

yah - it's the same method of finding "acceptable" ways of talking about unacceptable things that they use to talk about racist objectives in "acceptable" ways

108 Kragar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:04:03pm

re: #104 Henchman Ghazi-808

That's unproveable. There's no current scale that could weight the whole earth.

Therefore, it's true.

Image: 3242021+_2db2c092d678385ae9098808c66103db.jpg

109 HappyWarrior  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:05:47pm

re: #105 RadicalModerate

The original Public Policy Polling article on their survey can be found here, with a link to the actual poll within the story.

Republicans not handling election results well

Apparently, being a Republican voter IS easier than thinking.

49% think ACORN stole it? Goddamn they're stupid. Always blaming someone other than their pathetic selves when things go wrong. Here's a clue dumbasses. Don't nominate idiots like Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan for high office. They're simply unappealing to the majority of Americans.

110 Charles Johnson  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:06:02pm
111 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:07:51pm

re: #106 dragonath

If I were the photographer, I would have had no problem throwing the camera at the train to get the attention of the engineer. I hate how inflexible people think sometimes.

From the look of the photo, the guy was no more than 10 feet away.

The NRA would probably say concealed carry would have prevented this.

112 RadicalModerate  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:08:16pm

re: #86 Obdicut

From common sense.

WMD means a weapon of mass destruction.

Chemical weapons are markedly less efficient at killing people that conventional weapons. If you spend the same money and effort on, say, shelling the shit out of somewhere, you'll kill more people than if you'd used chemical weapons.

Nukes, on the other hand, are far more efficient than conventional weapons. Some biological weapons would be, too, theoretically.

Nukes are the only actual WMDs. The other weapons are terror weapons. The distinction is an important one, and I really hate that the Bush administration eroded that and that the Obama administration has done nothing to correct it.

Shorter version: If chemical weapons are WMDs, then so is a 155 mm Howitzer, or a B-17 flying fortress dropping bombs in WWII.

I disagree with this assessment. A large enough quantity of a biological agent introduced into a municipal water supply could easily kill thousands, if not millions of people.

113 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:10:34pm

re: #102 Obdicut
With all due respect to reducing confusion-
When one can find a half dozen references (including the reputable Encyclopedia Britannica) that include chemical weapons as part of the WMD category, it becomes fair & appropriate to use the term that way. I respect your narrower view, but in terms of posting to a larger audience, I should use the more commonly accepted definition.

114 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:11:29pm

re: #112 RadicalModerate

I disagree with this assessment. A large enough quantity of a biological agent introduced into a municipal water supply could easily kill thousands, if not millions of people.

That's probably why I said:

Some biological weapons would be, too, theoretically.

But it's still only theoretically. Introducing stuff into the biological system is an iffy thing. But you're entirely right there's a lot more hair-raising scenarios that involve biological weapons than chemical weapons.

115 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:14:11pm

biological weapons

the tea party is weaponized stupidity

i measure its strength at 54 million gigamorons

116 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:14:25pm

re: #113 Political Atheist

With all due respect to reducing confusion-
When one can find a half dozen references (including the reputable Encyclopedia Britannica) that include chemical weapons as part of the WMD category, it becomes fair & appropriate to use the term that way. I respect your narrower view, but in terms of posting to a larger audience, I should use the more commonly accepted definition.

I understand that the common usage of it includes those things. That's why whenever anyone makes a statement about WMD, you have to ask "Well, what exactly do you mean?" since they might be talking about something capable of killing millions or capable of killing ten people.

It's an incredibly unclear term. It would be a lot better if we hadn't let the term get corrupted, or if we restored it's good use A weapon of mass destruction has to be something capable of causing mass destruction. If it cannot cause mass destruction, it is not a weapon of mass destruction.

117 Kragar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:14:30pm

Fun Fact:

Windex will trigger a positive response for a nerve agent in the standard field issue chemical weapon test kits.

118 RadicalModerate  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:16:07pm

re: #114 Obdicut

That's probably why I said:

Some biological weapons would be, too, theoretically.

But it's still only theoretically. Introducing stuff into the biological system is an iffy thing. But you're entirely right there's a lot more hair-raising scenarios that involve biological weapons than chemical weapons.

I don't know. A chemical agent like Sarin gas, if properly refined would wreak havoc on a significantly large population.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Both of these cases involved a very crude version of the agent.

119 Kragar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:17:14pm

I was on duty at Yokuska Naval Base when we got the word about the sarin attack in Tokyo. One of my wife's friends got exposed.

When my section asked for volunteers for the 3 week NBC response school, I made sure I got to go.

120 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:19:34pm

re: #102 Obdicut

Yeah because everyone knows that chemical weapons are like totally harmless, I don't see why anyone would be worried about them...

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

///

121 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:19:39pm

re: #118 RadicalModerate

I don't know. A chemical agent like Sarin gas, if properly refined would wreak havoc on a significantly large population.

And so would a large amount of dynamite, or a big bunch of treacle.

Both of these cases involved a very crude version of the agent.

Yeah. Because it's really hard to refine and hard to weaponize and hard to spread.

Chemical and biological weapons, on the whole, are more ineffecient than conventional weapons.

Conceivably, anything could cause 'mass destruction', from Stay-Puft Marshmellows to hand grenades, if there were enough numbers and the conditiosn were right.

If someone has a sarin delivery system capable of killing tens of thousands, then that's a weapon of mass destruction. If it's capable of killing forty people, then it's not.

122 TedStriker  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:20:43pm

re: #71 Kragar

Fischer: "Our Second Amendment Is Rooted In The Teaching Of Jesus Christ"

[Embedded content]

Ahh, yes...the Book of Armaments, Chapter .44 Magnum.

/

123 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:21:13pm

re: #120 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Yeah because everyone knows that chemical weapons are like totally harmless, I don't see why anyone would be worried about them...

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Conventional weaposn are also not 'totally harmless', but they aren't considered WMDs.

My point is that only things that can cause mass destruction should be called weapons of mass destruction. If that means weapons capable of killing 3,000 people, then conventional bombing can be considered weapons of mass destruction.

124 Dr Lizardo  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:22:47pm

re: #91 Gus

You know, even the most ardent Muslim creationists say that the Earth is "four to five billion years old" and should you ask them why they think that, they'll respond, "Because that's what the radiocarbon dating shows, dummy". So it seems to me Mr Fischer here is vastly less knowledgeable than Muslim creationists, and is also far less willing to acknowledge scientific evidence (yeah, I know.....creationists are creationists generally, but Young Earth creationists are a whole special breed of loony).

125 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:25:28pm

creationism

believing that the earth is four to five thousand years old using ideas that are ten to twenty thousand years old

126 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:26:34pm

re: #124 Dr Lizardo

Huh. I didn't know that. That's really interesting. I wonder why the young earth thing got so prevalent in evangelical Christianity?

127 abolitionist  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:27:00pm

re: #104 Henchman Ghazi-808

That's unproveable. There's no current scale that could weigh the whole earth.

Therefore, it's true.

Richard Feynman characterized Cavendish's experiment for directly measuring the Gravitational Constant ( G ) in Newton's formula as weighing the earth.

128 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:27:59pm

re: #126 Obdicut

Huh. I didn't know that. That's really interesting. I wonder why the young earth thing got so prevalent in evangelical Christianity?

it pisses off people like us

129 RadicalModerate  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:28:26pm

re: #121 Obdicut

And so would a large amount of dynamite, or a big bunch of treacle.

Yeah. Because it's really hard to refine and hard to weaponize and hard to spread.

Chemical and biological weapons, on the whole, are more ineffecient than conventional weapons.

Conceivably, anything could cause 'mass destruction', from Stay-Puft Marshmellows to hand grenades, if there were enough numbers and the conditiosn were right.

If someone has a sarin delivery system capable of killing tens of thousands, then that's a weapon of mass destruction. If it's capable of killing forty people, then it's not.

There are orders of magnitude on how much sarin would be required to kill a large number of people versus how much dynamite or treacle. A backpack filled with explosives and shrapnel released in a crowded area could easily kill hundreds. That same backpack filled with refined sarin gas canisters would kill thousands to tens of thousands.

I've been on the receiving end of a hazmat-related forced evacuation of several city blocks due to an chlorine-gas leak (from a container roughly the size of a pressurized CO2 canister used for soft drink dispensing). From a chemical agent standpoint, this is pretty far down the food chain on lethality - yet dozens of people had to be treated for respiratory and skin contact.

130 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:31:47pm

re: #129 RadicalModerate

There are orders of magnitude on how much sarin would be required to kill a large number of people versus how much dynamite or treacle.

There's also many orders in magnitude of how hard it would be to create that much sarin, weaponize it, and get it into a distribution system capable of projecting it. If you spent your time getting dynamite and putting it around, you'd kill more people.

A backpack filled with explosives and shrapnel released in a crowded area could easily kill hundreds. That same backpack filled with refined sarin gas canisters would kill thousands to tens of thousands.

But you could make a thousand backpacks for the cost of that one sarin bomb.

And again, my main point is: If the weapon is capable of causing mass destruction, then it's a weapon of mass destruction. If it's not, then it's not. I don't care what it's made of. If they invent a new thing tomorrow called Blowmetohelliscite, and it's an explosive that's a zillion times more efficient than RDX, then that would be a WMD even though no 'definition' of WMD would contain it.

I am saying the phrase "weapon of mass destruction" doesn't need a definition, because it's an easily understood phrase: It means weapons capable of causing mass destruction.

131 jaunte  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:34:00pm
132 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:38:09pm

re: #123 Obdicut

Conventional weaposn are also not 'totally harmless', but they aren't considered WMDs.

My point is that only things that can cause mass destruction should be called weapons of mass destruction. If that means weapons of killing 3,000 people, then conventional bombing can be considered weapons of mass destruction.

Interesting. Just maybe that's as it should be. Given modern "pick the window" precision weapons, as compared to say the firebombings the US Army Air Corps did in WW2, why yes those were WMD attacks. They just needed a lot more aircraft & warheads than what we might use today.

Added Edit
Great dark humor-Blowmetohelliscite
Cracked me up.

133 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:42:08pm

re: #132 Political Atheist

Interesting. Just maybe that's as it should be. Given modern "pick the window" precision weapons, as compared to say the firebombings the US Army Air Corps did in WW2, why yes those were WMD attacks. They just needed a lot more aircraft & warheads than what we might use today.

Sure. That's consistent. In that case, there are many, many, many biological and chemical weapons that are not WMDs, since they are not capable of causing those levels of destruction.

134 celticdragon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:46:54pm

re: #86 Obdicut

From common sense.

WMD means a weapon of mass destruction.

Chemical weapons are markedly less efficient at killing people that conventional weapons. If you spend the same money and effort on, say, shelling the shit out of somewhere, you'll kill more people than if you'd used chemical weapons.

Nukes, on the other hand, are far more efficient than conventional weapons. Some biological weapons would be, too, theoretically.

Nukes are the only actual WMDs. The other weapons are terror weapons. The distinction is an important one, and I really hate that the Bush administration eroded that and that the Obama administration has done nothing to correct it.

Shorter version: If chemical weapons are WMDs, then so is a 155 mm Howitzer, or a B-17 flying fortress dropping bombs in WWII.

Chemical weapons create a no-go zone for everybody and make it difficult or impossible for combat operations to proceed in the affected area. That is the real feature of using chemical weapons (persistant agents in particular). You can make large areas of real estate off limits to your enemy.

135 celticdragon  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:50:26pm

re: #119 Kragar

I was on duty at Yokuska Naval Base when we got the word about the sarin attack in Tokyo. One of my wife's friends got exposed.

When my section asked for volunteers for the 3 week NBC response school, I made sure I got to go.

I was in charge of our units chemical decontamination station, so I was trainied to use the chemical agent monitors and clean both equipment and people who had been exposed.

136 Dr Lizardo  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 3:57:25pm

re: #126 Obdicut

I have no idea, either. It's an old idea, to be sure, based on counting back the flood of Noah, the ages of Adam, etc. Even Muslims that interpret the Qur'an absolutely literally don't cotton to Young Earth creationism. They think it's ridiculous, and flies in the face of scientific evidence to the contrary. Even that most ardent Muslim creationist, Harun Yahya, dismisses Young Earth creationism as "embarrassing" and a "mistaken doctrine".

137 Godisdeadandburied  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 4:03:17pm

If those on welfare are not allowed to vote, does that mean that bankers, farmers, oil companies, and defense contractors should be disenfranchised?

138 Godisdeadandburied  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 4:06:09pm

re: #109 HappyWarrior

"Always blaming someone other than their pathetic selves when things go wrong."

Ironic coming from the same people who always cackle about "personal responsibility."

139 EPR-radar  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 4:13:32pm

re: #136 Dr Lizardo

I have no idea, either. It's an old idea, to be sure, based on counting back the flood of Noah, the ages of Adam, etc. Even Muslims that interpret the Qur'an absolutely literally don't cotton to Young Earth creationism. They think it's ridiculous, and flies in the face of scientific evidence to the contrary. Even that most ardent Muslim creationist, Harun Yahya, dismisses Young Earth creationism as "embarrassing" and a "mistaken doctrine".

I think that Young Earth creationism is embraced by movement conservatism in the US for several reasons.

1) It promotes egregious stupidity in the public, which is politically useful (easier to get stupid people to vote against their interests).

2) It's a culture war distraction (easier to enrich the wealthy at other's expense if there is a noisy culture war playing out).

3) The rude mockery that young earth creationism receives from anyone with an education and a bit of energy feeds the persecution fantasies so cherished by the US Right. (e.g., fantasies of persecution of Christians in the US).

140 Dr Lizardo  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 4:21:25pm

re: #139 EPR-radar

Those are all excellent points.

141 engineer cat  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 4:23:53pm

re: #139 EPR-radar

I think that Young Earth creationism is embraced by movement conservatism in the US for several reasons.

1) It promotes egregious stupidity in the public, which is politically useful (easier to get stupid people to vote against their interests).

2) It's a culture war distraction (easier to enrich the wealthy at other's expense if there is a noisy culture war playing out).

3) The rude mockery that young earth creationism receives from anyone with an education and a bit of energy feeds the persecution fantasies so cherished by the US Right. (e.g., fantasies of persecution of Christians in the US).

4) makes it easier to identify people who can be panicked into buying gold

142 Gus  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 4:27:42pm

Ross Douchehat is still at it.

Don’t Mention The Decadence

Excerpt:

Likewise for readers who regard any talk about the moral weight of reproductive choices as a subtle attempt to reimpose the patriarchy: Can it really be that having achieved so much independence and autonomy and professional success, today’s Western women have no moral interest in seeing that as many women are born into the possibility of similar opportunities tomorrow? Is the feminist revolution such a fragile thing that it requires outright population decline to fulfill its goals, and is female advancement really incompatible with the goal of a modestly above-replacement birthrate? Indeed, isn’t it just possible that a modern culture that celebrated the moral component of childrearing more fully would end up serving certain feminist ends, rather than undermining them — by making public policy more friendly to work-life balance, by putting more cultural pressure on men to be involved fathers rather than slackers and deadbeat dads, and so on?

143 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 4:30:13pm

Just for the record when the FBI charges someone for a terrorist bomb plot, the charge is : Conspiracy to use a weapon of mass destruction. So far none of them have been nuclear.

144 Patricia Kayden  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:09:38pm

Romney was so glad to get Nugent's endorsement. And we're supposed to be shocked that the Republican party cannot attract minority voters? Right.

145 Patricia Kayden  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:11:54pm

re: #142 Gus

How many children does Ross have? I assume that he and his wife do not use birth control so that he can bring as many children into the world as possible to fulfill his "all women must have children so that the Western world can survive" ideology.

He sounds deranged. My husband and I have no children because we didn't want children. What's the big deal?

146 Patricia Kayden  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 6:16:57pm

re: #58 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Sigh. Couldn't they just write about it without the salacious picture?


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